AN ANSWER TO THE TEN COUNTER DEMANDS PROPOUNDED BY T. DRAKES Preacher of the Word at H. and D. in the County of ESSEX.  
By Wil Euring.  PROV. 9.12. 
If thou be wise thou shalt be wise for thyself, and if thou be a scorner thou alone shalt suffer.  
Printed in the year 1619.   

To the Reader.  
IT is the manner of some quarrelsome persons, that being beaten by one adversary, too strong for them, they are not quiet in their minds till they have got another, with whom they hope to deal well enough; and to beat the former upon his back, wrecking upon him all that anger which they have harboured in their heart against the other, but could not utter as they desired. So it seems to be with this man: who having had of late (as it is reported) much combating with the Morris-dauncing-Papists and Atheists in his parish, whereof lately he was Minister: And finding them too hard for him; and that instead of being sheep to follow him, they came with open mouth like wolves both against the sheep and Shepherd: he hath thought it best, seeing these wolves thus coming to save himself by flying to an other place; leaving the poor sheep in the same fold with the wolves, to shift for themselves as they could. But not resting so, he hath bethought him of an other sort of adversaries, with whom he hopes more easily to deal: and these are the poor Separatists; against whom he hath also those Morris-dancers, and many greater than they to take his part. Them he encountereth stoutly with Ten Counterdemands (as he calls them) with which as with so many iron horns, he hopes so to shake the silly Separatists, as not to leave them a whole bone in their skin. But why doth he call them Counterdemands? Not because he hath answered, but only seen, as I hear, 7 Demands of theirs, some good space since propounded by them. These he should rather have answered, in my judgement, if he could, for the defence of his Church Communion, Government, ministery, and Worship. But it seems he had rather ask, then answer questions (as what bungler cannot better strike then fence?) and so his meaning is, to set these his Ten Counterdemands against their Seven Demands, that so they might knock heads together, to see whose is hardest. Since than it must be so, I will first set down those Seven, and after answer his Ten, simply, without all doubt, yet as well as I can: but plainly, and distinctly as he desireth: Entreating thee, good Reader, to bear with my unschollership, for I have not been brought up among the Muses, but Mariners: and am unwillingly, though particularly, drawn hereunto by his importunity.  
Quest. 1 Whether the Lord jesus Christ have in his last will & Testament given unto, and set in his Church, sufficient ordinary Offices, with their callings, works, and maintenance, for the administration of his holy things; and for the ordinary instruction, guidance, and service of his Church to the end of the world, or no?  
2. Whether the Offices of Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons, and Helpers be those offices appointed in the Testament of Christ? or whether the present ecclesiastical offices of archbishops. lordbishops, Suffragans, Deans, Priests, Vicars,, archdeacons, Prebendaries, Canons, Gospelers, Petty-Canons, Epistlers, Virgerers, choristers, Organ-Players, Parsons, Curates, Chancellors, Commissaries, Proctors, Registers, Appariters or Summoners, Churchwardens, Doctors of Divinity, Questmen or Sidemen, Deacons or half Priests, chaplains or house-Priests, Clerks, Sextons, and the rest now had and retained in the Cathedral and Parishional Assemblies of the Land, be those Offices appointed in Christ's last will and testament, or no?  
3 Whether the calling, and entrance into the ecclesiastical offices last before named, with their administrations, and maintenance now had and retained in England, be the manner of calling, administration, and maintenance, which Christ hath appointed for the offices of his Church, or no?  
4 Whether every true Church of Christ, be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and false worship and ways thereof, by the word of God, and joined together in the fellowship of the Gospel, by voluntary profession of the faith, and obedience of Christ.  
5 Whether the sacraments, being seals of the righteousness which is by faith, may be administered unto any other, but to the faithful and their seed, or in any other ministry or manner than is prescribed, and appointed by jesus Christ the Apostle and high priest of our profession? And whether they be not otherwise administered in the parish assemblies of England at this day, or no?  
6 Whether the book of Common prayer, with the feasts, fasts, stinted prayers, holly days, and liturgy prescribed therein & used in the assemblies, be the true worship of God commanded in his word, or the devise and invention of man for God's worship and service.  
7 Whether all people and Churches without exception, be not bound in religion, only to receive and submit unto that Ministry, worship and order, which Christ as Lord and King hath given unto, and appointed in his Church: or whether any may receive and join unto another devised by man for the worship and service of God: and consequently whether they that join to the present Ecclesiastical ministry, worship, and order of the Cathedral and Parishional Assemblies, can be assured by the word of God, that they join to the former, ordained by Christ, and not to the latter, devised by man for the worship and service of God.   

AN ANSWER TO TEN Counterdemands, Propounded by T. DRAKES, Preacher of the Word at H. and D. in the County of ESSEX.  
REverend sir, you have given us here a Counter blow: and as it is reported, you yet think to give us, if not a greater, yet another Blow, but you earnestly desired to have these your Ten Counterblowes directly and distinctly answered; which I will labour to do God assisting me.  
Demand 1. Your first Demand is, Whether our separation from your Church or Church-assembles of England, can in any probability be pleasing unto God, seeing it hath had (say you) such unhappy beginnings, and so many dismal and fatal events: the first founder of it coming to judas his shameful and fearful end, hanging himself: and the second (you say) totally recanting and coming again to you: as diverse of our proselytes do daily, etc.  

Answer.  
This is the sum or ground of your first Demand other words there are, here and there dropped from your pen, which give no strength at all to your demand, & therefore I pass them by, and answer, yea. Though this be true that you have said, yet may our separation from your Church or parish-assemblies of England be pleasing unto God: and for proof hereof consider what followeth.  
This your demand is like as if a Cananite or Philistim should thus have demanded of the Israelites. Whether is it like that the wars you hold against us, can in any probability be pleasing unto God, seeing that they have had such unhappy success, with so many dismal & fatal events? some were burnt with fire, Nom. 11.1 some sunk into the earth alive, Nom. 16.32.33 some were destroyed of serpents. Nom. 21.6. some by the enemies sword. Nom. 14.45. some by the sword of their own brethren. Exod. 32 27. Even Moses & Aaron, your first & greatest, yea principal pillars of greatest reckoning, died in the desert for their sin. And of six hundred thousand men that came out of Egypt to fight against us, Exod. 12.37. only two men are left alive. Nom. 26.64, 65 etc. What think you Sir? Was this war in any probability pleasing unto God? if you say yea, you have answered your demand yourself: and discovered your own folly: for thus you see a Pagan might have pleaded against Israel, God's true Church then, with as much colour and more truth, than you that are called a Christian, can do against us now: and thus I think your first demand is sufficiently answered.  
But it may be sir, you will not be thus satisfied, without your particulars be examined. M. Bolton, which (you say) was the first founder of our separation, hanged himself, as did judas: well. Prove you as much for Boiton as I do for judas. As we deny Bolton to have been the first founder of our separation, so sure I am, that judas was one of the first and principallest publishers of the gospel of Christ: for he was numbered with the Apostles, being one of the twelve and had received fellowship in their ministration, Act. 1.17.  
And will you now therefore call the Gospel and Christianity into question, as whether it be of God or no? because this judas hanged himself: if no, what weight then is in your demand? And now I pray you sir consider also that this M. Bolton, one of the Elders of that separated Church where of M. Fits was pastor in the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign, first revolted at Paul's Cross, falling back again to you: and was reproved & excommunicated for this, by that separated Church: and afterward, not having grace to return or repent hanged himself. This being so M. Boltons' martyrdom is little for the credit of your cause, or Church, whereof he died a member.  
The second you say totally recanted &c. And this you note to be Brown. And say I, so did Demas. 2. Tim. 4.10. which sometime was a fellow-helper with Paul as well as Luke Col. 4.14. Phil. 2.4. As diverse others in all ages have done, who loved this present world more than God. Can it not therefore stand with your liking Sir, that the Gospel which Christ or Paul preached, can in any probability be pleasing unto God, because judas hanged himself, and Demas totally recanted it. I pray you Sir consider what the Apostle saith; What though some have not believed or been unfaithful, shall their unfaithfulness, make the faith of God without effect? God forbidden. Rom. 3.3.4.  
And again, consider I pray you: Christian religion was at a low ebb when so many went back from Christ, that he said to the twelve, will ye also leave me. joh. 6.66. yet you see still Christianity flourisheth: and we, to our exceeding great comfort do behold it. And for us, though many bad ones have gone a way, yet God bringeth better in their place daily. And thus I think your first Demand is directly and distinctly answered, as you desire. Only this I will further add concerning M. Browne, that he hath so left it in practice, as to show the corruption of his heart; yet so holdeth it in professed judgement, as shows the strength of the truth, still upholding itself in so evil a conscience: who professeth in keeping his Ministry, that he liveth of the spoils of Babylon.  
And for Master Boulton, although you think you have great advantage against us in his case & some others, who have fallen from us: yet if things be rightly considered, the contrary will appear. And as Abimelech king of Gerar, when he reproved Abraham for denying Sarah to be his wife, had more need to have reproved himself for his want of the fear of God, & of common humanity, by which poor Abraham was driven to that straight: so you, in upbraiding us with these men's falls, had more need reprove yourselves, & your own most unmerciful dealings towards us, by which diverse are forced to deny the truth as Abraham did his wife, against their consciences: whereupon followeth most fearful despair & sometimes such woeful events as this upon Boltons' Apostasy was; & so you are before the Lord, made guilty both of the blood of the bodies, & of the souls of those miserable men.  
And whereas you have a marginal note of one M. Nowell in ; you are the first from whom I ever heard any thing of that man, and therefore this is all that I can say, If he were not fully persuaded of the truth in that estate wherein he stood, but died with a troubled mind seeking the truth: what doth this make either against us, or for you? I see nothing, let wise men judge etc.  
2 Demand. Your second demand is, as I understand it. Whether our profession, religion, and discipline, as it standeth in opposition to your Parishassembles in England and the rest of the reformed Churches, can be of God, or have any approbation from God: seeing that it hath no virtue, power, and efficacy in it, (as the Gospel preached in your parishassemples through God's blessings abundantly hath) to win, convert, and draw unto our party, and profession, Atheists, Papists, Heretics, rude, profane etc.  
2 Answer. To this your demand I answer yea: our profession religion and discipline (as you call it) may be of God, and have approbation from God, though not converting any such. And if it be so of God, as it be approved in his word, it is enough, though we have not converted any at all; and for proof hereof, as also for further answer to your demand, consider this that followeth.  
Your demand is like as if a Cananite should thus have demanded of Noah. Gen. 6. Can this thy Ark building, be of God, or have any approbation from God, seeing that in all this time there appeareth neither virtue, power, nor efficacy to win, convert, and draw unto thy party any at all? for thou canst hardly show any one person converted unto thee by thy preaching, or Ark building these hundred and twenty years? what think you Sir? could Noah his Ark building be of God, or have any, etc.  
Also, I pray you Sir consider with yourself what answer you would have made, if any of your Morris-dancing papists or profane Atheists (with whom you, but lately, were much cumbered) should have demanded the like of you? Your administration, and ministerial office, had so little virtue, power, and efficacy in it, among them, that you were glad to leave them unconverted & come away from them: and it may be, they deemed your ministry not to be of God, nor to have any approbation from God: and you yourself also peradventure, thinking the same thing, and seeing also that those to whom you sued for redress, could not or would not give any more virtue, power, or efficacy to your Ministry, and office, you took the best course, as you thought, even to leave them in their Idolatry and profanes and come away from them: for the which I would have you mind well and consider what the Lord saith. Zacha. ●●. 17. surely sir, seeing that you thus deem of things by the effects, you can not but think very hardly of yourself: considering the small effect your ministry hath wrought, especially amongst your Morris-dancers.  
And yet for further answer to your demand, consider sir, we are a poor weak despised people here in England, hated and persecuted of all, or the most part in the land: and therefore, if we have any meetings or coming together on the Lord's day? they must be very private for fear of such persecuting adversaries as cannot endure (and are ignorant of) the truth of God's ordinances to be taught and practised, so that Papists, Atheists, and such like profane, come not at our exercises: and how is it possible we should convert any that come not to hear us? If we should demand of you, how many Turks and Saracens have been converted in your Parish assemblies, what answer would you give us, that will not answer yourself.  
2 To let pass the Churches in this way, beyond the seas, which have their more free meetings, and able ministries, and where this blessing of God in converting men, is more seen, then, I think, in any of the Parishes that ever you yourself were minister of (though you have been in more than a good many or then a good Pastor should or would be) I may bouloly say, that we, how few or mean soever we are; do convert more to our Churches thou you do to yours. All these Atheists, Heretics, and profane persons were as well of your Church before their conversion, as after: and for the Papists, either they come to hear you, and then they are of your Church also, namely Church-Papists, or not: and then, how do you convert them by your ministry. Besides, it is evident, that the number of Papists do daily increase in the land infinitely; such is your plentiful conversion of Papists.  
But indeed Sir, your following words, wherein you please to term us, refined reformers, saying, that we seduce only the sound, and pervert and estrange from you those that are otherwise well affected, & of some understanding etc. are worth the considering: and I entreat the Godly readers to take knowledge of this that followeth.  
First I profess unfeignedly with an upright heart as in God's presence, who knoweth the secrets of all hearts: that neither I myself, nor any other (to my knowledge) that professeth the same course of true religion with me) did ever intend or once conceive, so much as in thought, any one point or part of sedition, or evil conspiracy, against any man's person: much less against the king's majesty his royal state, & government: but we do acknowledge his majesty to be supreme governor in all his dominions in all causes and over all persons of what estate or degree so ever they be: and that no person may decline or appeal from his authotity or judgement in any cause whatsoever: but that in all things obedience is due unto him, either Active if the thing commanded be not against God's word, or Passive if it be: except pardon can be obtained: and hereunto we do diligently exhort and provoke all men at all times etc.  
This being in the first place considered, it is true that you say: our cause hath wrought most upon such as have some understanding and knowledge; and are of tender consciences pliable to the truth: others of more corrupt consciences have set against us, and against our cause, and blasphemed it etc.  
The consideration of this, will in any wise man's judgement rather lead unto our cause, then from it, when the better sort, by your own confession, do come to us, the worse and base sort remain still with you. And this much for answer to your second demand, now to your third.  
This your third demand is of another kind differing from the former: for here you seem to leave your national Church and Parishassembles of England, and make your demand only for your reformed assemblies: wherein you say the Gospel is sincerely preached and professed, and the sacraments duly administered etc. But of this particular you shall have answer when I come to your 7 and 8 demand?  
3. Demand. Your demand is here to know. Whether those reformed Assemblies whereof you speak are worse than the jews Synagogues: and your ministers worse than the Scribes and Pharisees which sat in Moses chair? Whom Christ commanded the people to hear etc.  
3 Answ. Your demand then being only in defence of your reformed Assemblies, it had been well, if you had showed us where and which those assemblies be, that are reform. We know indeed, that many amongst you both ministers and people have made much suit to Parliaments, and written many books (of which I have read some) for reformation of your Church and Ministry: but still to the best of our discerning, all your parish assemblies are as before under one and the same order, and manner of worship ministery, and confusion of people: all governed by the fame spiritual laws, & spiritual Lords, their spiritual courts, and canons: all being still one Church, all one communion and fellowship: so that your Demand being only for your reformed assemblies, and yet you tell us not which nor where they be, how can we give you a direct answer to your demand.  
First therefore tell us where and which those assembles be that are reform, & then you shall have a direct answer, God willing. In the mean time we will take this for one advantage among the rest: that is, that there appeareth a check in your conscience, because you make your defence, or demand but for a part of your Church: that is, your reformed assemblies: whereby you intimate, that there is a worse sort of assemblies, that are unreformed, which you will not plead for: where as if your Church or Church-assemblies of England were Christ's true Church, we think you should have laboured to defend the whole: is not every one of Christ's true Churches to be defended? how deceitfully then do you deal with your Church that seek to uphold your reformed assembles and neglect the rest: all being in one brotherhood and communion together,  
But it may be sir, you are driven to shift for yourself: therefore if you will show us which be your reformed assembiles, we will show you great difference between those Synagogues of the jew, where Christ and his disciples did teach, and your parish assemblies: great difference between those that sat in Moses Chair, which were in true office under Moses according to the la, and you, with the rest, that have no true office under Christ according to the gospel. Your mighty reason a minore ad majus (which words indeed I understand not) is this: If (say you) our Lord jesus, his disciples and people, did not separate from thire Synagogues and assemblies, that were in faith and manners more defective than ours are: much less ought they to separate from our assembles, wherein all the grounds of Christian religion are sound held and professed, (you might have added) and but few practice, neither of priests nor people, in whom covetousness, wrath, envy, and contention do daily abound: many thousands neither knowing, nor regarding to know what true faith meaneth: and for their manners which you would seem so much to commend: let the manners even of that Parish assembly wherein yourself did of late exercise your spiritual authority in vain: as also the mamnerly conditions and conversation of almost all in general, testify how true this your bold affirmation of their manners is: and withal, let the Readers mind, that although you boast of all the grounds of christian religion, yet it is but held and professed; not practised among you: so that it may seem you believe also, that to hold and profess, (without obedience) is sufficient for the salvation of the professors: but to the intent that this may be better discerned, I do entreat and desire all that are christianly minded to read and consider of these few places of scripture. jam. 1.21.22.25.26. Tit. 1.16.2. Thes. 1.7.8.9. Eze. 22.26 I will only point the places, let the godly read and judge.  
4 Demand Now to your fourth demand, which is; Whether those great multitudes of people spoken of Math. 14.13.14.15. etc. joh. 6.5.10.11. can with any reason be denied to be members of the visible church, though yet wanting the pretended constitution of the Separatists? and albeit many of them (you say) were drawn, not by doctrine but by miracles, report, and with their desire to be fed: etc.  
4 Answ. To this your demand I answer directly, yea: they may with good reason grounded on the word of God (speaking as you do of the multitude) be denied to be members of any visible Church, and this doth plainly appear in the same 2 chapters; namely, Mat. 14. joh. 6. which may also be compared with other scriptures to prove the same.  
There were none of them members of the visible Church of Christ, but those that did visibly appear to be Christ's Disciples: but the multitude that followed him for their bellies sake were not his Disciples, as the very words of the text do prove; where a diffecence is put between the one and the other. First, look Mat. 14.19. where it is said, He caused the multitude to sit down, and when he had blessed, & broke, he gave it to the disciples & the disciples to the multitude. And when they had all eaten & were sufficed, he caused his disciples to enter into a ship while he sent the multitude away. Mat. 14.22.23. Mar. 4.4. If you say, he taught them altogether; it is true: yet was it in parables: and afterward he expounded all things to his disciples apart. Mar. 4.10.11.34.35.36. Mat. 13.10.11.13.14.15.36.  
And thus it doth plainly appear that the multitude were not his disciples: and consequently, not members of any visible Church of Christ: for than he would not have sent them away empty in their souls, and full in their bodies, but he would have expounded all things to them altogether, for their edification and further comfort. But the text doth plainly show the disciples to be within: and the multitude to be without. Mar. 4.10.11.12.  
And whereas you further demand, Whether those 3. thousand in the second of the acts, that were converted at Peter's Sermon, were not true members of a true visible Church before they had officers chosen among them? etc.  
I Answer yea, they were: this you say cannot be refuted; and it is true: but what have you gained by this? what doth this help the multitude spoken of before? If I should charge you here with deceitful dealing, by shuffling this place of the Acts with the other two places of scripture, thereby to make your demand seem something, and of some weight, blinding therewith the eyes of your readers; I doubt you could hardly clear yourself with a good conscience: but howsoever you would seem to shuffle them together to serve your turn, yet they are plainly distinguished thus as followeth,  
This place of the Acts, speaketh of three thousand godly penitent sinners, pricked in their hearts for their sins, and converted at that sermon: the multitude spoken of in the other two scriptures were not such, by your own grant. Again, these in the second of the Acts received the apostles doctrine gladly, and forsaking that froward generation with whom they lived, they joined themselves unto the Church, as appearath in the 37.40. and 41. verses. Now who can deny these 3. thousand (though still the multitude be denied) to be members of the true visible Church when the text saith they were added to the Church? although it should be granted, that as yet they had no other officers chosen but the Apostles. But then say you, And why not our Church-assemblies in England, (much more grounded in the faith) a true visible Church. etc.  
I answer no, it will not follow; because (howsoever some few of you may be more grounded in knowledge of the truth than they were, and thereby your sins and transgressions much more greater against God, by knowing more, and obeying less) your parish assemblies were not at the first gathered from others by the preaching of the word, their hearts being touched with godly sorrow for their sins, neither do they yet appear to be pricked in their hearts for their sins, as those three thousand were. Your parish assemblies do not gladly receive the Apostles doctrine, and continue therein, with gladness of heart to be directed, and ordered thereby, as they did: but every man among you, will do what his own heart listeth: even according to the frowardness and anger of his evil heart: so that were it not for the laws of the nation and the power of the magistrates restraining them more than the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles; the manifold mischiefs that would be done by one against another among you through the envy and malice of your evil and wicked hearts, is too manifest to be denied, and too shameful to be defended. I do heartily desire you, Sir, to examine your own heart well in this point, & mind well the exhortations that the Apostle giveth in Heb. 3.12. 2. Cor. 13.5.6.7.8.9.11. 1. Cor. 11.28.29.30.31. you see and know that your Parish-assemblies are so far from continuing in the Apostles doctrine, that they neither konws (therefore not receive) nor yet regard to know what the wholesome doctrine of the Apostles meaneth. I speak not this of all in particular, the Lord knoweth my heart is far from so thinking: I know many that have tender consciences, and loving affections, and do well regard the best things: but I speak generally of the conditions of the most, with whom the better sort stand all in the communion, and in one order, or disorder rather: being mingled together all in one brotherhood: and that not by personal failing, but by the very constitution and laws of your Church, civil and ecclesiastical, clean contrary to the revealed will of God in his Word.  
Even you yourself Sir, that are a leader, and profess yourself to be a guide to the blind, you break the law of God,, and defile his holy things: you put no difference between the holy and profane, neither discern between the unclean and the clean, so the Lord is profaned among you. Eze. 22.26. Consider I pray you and compare together these few places of Scripture Mat. 18.1516.17. Rom. 16.17. 1. Cor. 5.11.12.13. 2, Thes, 36.7. etc. and then compare this order here appointed by Christ, and his apostles, unto the order of your Church and Parish-assemblies, & you shall see, even by these 5. places of scripture, how far you are from that holy order which Christ in his last will and testament hath given and appointed unto his visible Church to walk in, and to practise.  
You compel all that are of your Parish (howsoever unworthy or unable) to pay their offerings, and to receive the communion, especially at your holy time of Easter: there is the table prepared, bread and wine set, come that will and welcome. Esay, 65.11.12. yea if they be dwelling in your Parish, and will not pay their offerings, and come to the communion daily, they are by you presented into your spiritual Courts, thither they are summoned: if they appear not obedienly, paying their fees, clearing the books etc. they shall be by that Court excommunicated out of your Parish-assemblies: and then, before they may be admitted again either to the forenamed banquet, or to your divine service (as you call it) their purses must pay dear enough for a blessing, or absolution, which they must receive humbly kneeling on their knees before Master. Commissary, or Master. Chancellor's worship: and if they die excommunicate before they have received this bouncing blessing, they may not be brought into your holy ground to be buried there in christian burial, (as you call it) unless their friends will first purchase absolution for them. If the mould of this came not from Rome, than I pray you Sir, show us where you learned it: for in the whole Bible, we cannot find any such spiritual order given or appointed by God unto his Church.  
5 Demand. Your 5. demand is Whether that in Constantine's (the first Christian Emperor) time, and ever since, unto M. john calvin's days for the space of 13 hundred years there was no Christian Churches in Asia, Africa and Europe, because they had the same outward constitution, formal state, Bishops, Archbishops, Metropolytans, and Church government, for substance, & substance of doctrine, that our English Church hath and retaineth etc.  
To tell you the truth: I know not well how to answer this your demand: yet not because it is so divinely grounded on the word of God: but only because I want school learning, and knowledge of ancient Author's writings: as being not able to read and understand them: so that now you have me at a non plus: as wise men and fools use to say.  
Yet this is one thing much to be lamented: that a man of your place and learning should leave the Scripture, the true word of the living God, and thus inquire of the dead: but according to the old proverb, like will to like.  
5 Answer. Thus much I say for answer to this your farfetched demand: I do believe and am fully persuaded by the word of God, that in whatsoever Emperors or King's time, since the time of Christ: in what Nation or Country soever: whether in Asia, afric, Europe, (or wheresoever) any Church or Churches hath been, is, or shall be gathered or constituted in any other manner, or by and with any other matter, under or unto any other worship, ministry, spiritual Governors, or spiritual government, than the same for substance in manner and matter, which Christ and his Apostles have appointed in the new testament: they are not the true visible Churches of Christ.  
I do not mean hereby, an absolute true and perfect gathering or constituting: but that all things, both for the gathering and continuing of the true visible Church of Christ, must be (so far as can be discerned by men) agreeable to the word of God, as God shall make men able to discern and understand the Scriptures. And this is all that I can say for answer to this your demand: only I will not lose the good advantage that I have gained by the same; which is this; I see that you are not able to approve your Church by the word of God, and therefore you are driven to make inquiry, and to look about you to see if you can espy and find out any other Churches, though never so far of, whose constitution or gathering, ministry and worship, ecclesiastical Governors and Ecclesiastical government, is for substance like unto you, hoping by them to justify yourselves: but how like it is that other Churches can afford you any help or safeguard, when as by the verdict of God's word you stand condemned, let the godly judge. He hath need of a staff that leaneth on a reed. And yet even for this your poor proof, it is affirmed by some, who know those histories, that it is a very boast without all truth, that the Churches either in Constantine's time, or a long time after, were gathered by compulsion of all, tag and rag, in the empire, as yours are of all, in the kingdom: or that there were any such Arch Bishops, or Lord Bishops, with sole authority to rule and govern. Besides, let the Reader note how in your very Demand, you do grawt the great difference between the Churches since Calvines time, that is between all reformed Churches; and your unreformed Church of Enland.  
6 Demand. Your sixth Demand is, Whether the reformed Churches in the lower and higher Germany, in France, the Churches in Geneva, etc. that come nearer to our constitution and discipline (you say) than yours in England do; be true visible Churches or no? etc.  
To this your Demand, you have added two branches depending upon the former, the which I will answer, as you have set them down one afer another.  
6 Answer. I answer yea, they are true visible constituted Churches, and have a true and lawful ministry set over them: both which, you in your Parish-assemblies want.  
Then you further demand, and say. If they be such, why then do not we adjoin ourselves to some of those, but distaste them (you say) as much as we do yours? I think Sir, it had been a point of wisdom first to have heard our answer before you had thus hastily affirmed, that we distaste them as much as we do yours: but Solomon hath answered you for your haste, Pro. 29.20. And I will answer your Demand.  
I have in my former answer affirmed them to be true constituted Churches, & that they have a true & lawful ministry set over them: whereby you see we do not altogether distaste them as much as we do yours. And now to this your Demand; which is: why we do not adjoin ourselves unto them etc. I think this may serve for answer: we can not understand their language: and I think you cannot give us any good reason why we should adjoin ourselves to worship God though in a true Church, when we can not understand what they say: for how should we profit or be edified by their doctrine how should we say Amen to their giving of thanks, seeing we know not what they say? 1. Cor. 14.16.17.  
You yet further Demand: Why we do not in judgement assent unto any or all those reformed Churches that with a joint consent (as may appear (you say) by the harmony of confessions) acknwledge the Church of England to be a true Church, and give it the right hand of fellowship? how dare they (say you) refuse? etc.  
To this I answer: I do not know that the word of God bindeth us to assent unto the judgement of true Churches, any further than we understand their judgement to assent with (and agree unto) the word of God.  
True Churches may ere in their judgement of another Church, especially if they be not rightly informed of their estate: as it appeareth the reformed Churches are not rightly informed of yours: for how then can they approve of the constitution, ministry, spiritual governors, & spiritual government of your Church to be warrantable by the word of God, but they must in so doing condemn themselves: for in all these points they are as far contrary to you, as white and black: true and false are the one to the other: and I suppose none will say that two such contraries can be both true. But mind with all: the Apostle saith to particular Churches and persons, judge ye what I say, 1. Cor. 10.15. believe not every spirit, but try the spirits etc. 1, joh. 4.1. And again, if any man preach otherwise unto you then we have preached, let him be accursed. Gala. 1.8.9.  
Now you seem to teach us another Gospel: for you would not have us judge and try ourselves and others by the word of God, but send to other Churches in Germany, in France, and Geneva, hear what they say and what they judge for truth or falsehood: if they approve, who dare disallow? if they give the right hand of fellowship, how dare we refuse? etc.  
Thus you daub with untempered mortar, having nothing but such old popish valour to countenance your Counterdemands: doth ill beseem a man of your place and learning. Hear what the word of God saith, To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isay. 8.20.  
Your leaving of this Law and this Testimony makes us leave you: you may as well bid us put out our own eyes, that other men may lead us: and as soon will we follow you in that, as in this your popish counsel.  
We have learned to live by our own faith, and to know that every man must bear his own burden, and answerr for himself unto God. Hab. 2.4. Gala. 6.5. And to think that any may excuse themselves, or be the boulder because they have the approbation of others, when they can not approve themselves by the word of God, will prove but an evil and false delusion of Satan: therefore seeing that all men, even whole Churches may err in their judgements: let every man take heed how he judgeth, and how he dependeth on other men, and makes flesh his arm, and will not hear the word of the Lord, that reproveth his iniquities: As for the reformed Churches, we believe that they rejoice for the many truths you witness against Popery, and we also do the like: but if you rely upon their aprobbation, and will not examine your ways, and try yourselves by the word of God, you may perish in your sins, and other churches shall not be able to excuse or save you. And thus I think your sixth Demand is sufficiently answered. Let him that readeth consider.  
7 Demand. Your 7 and 8 Demands are so much alike, that one may judge them to be twins, they resemble either other, and so unlike the rest: therefore this answer shall serve for them both until further occasion be offered. In your seventh Demand you thus begin. How can the Church, or Church assemblies be false, etc.  
7 Answer. I answer, your Church (and Church-assemblies) of England may be false for aught that you have yet said to the contrary: but if we might entreat you to set forth and show us the right form and fashion of the building of your Church, we should the better discern it, and give you a director answer to your Demand then now we can do: but in the mean time we will a little consider and examine what you say. In these words of yours, how can the Church or Church-assemblies etc. you grant the whole nation to be a Church: then me things you seem to divide that Church into many Churches, calling them Church Assemblies: meaning thereby (as I conjecture) your Parish-assemblies.  
8 Demand. And so it appeareth by your 8 Demand, where you writ thus: How can the formal state (as they call it) of the provincial, diocesan, cathedral and Parishonall Churches of England, and the regiment thereof be unlawful, etc.,  
Here you have foisted in a word or two which I found not in the former, which word, because I understand it not, as you (peradventure) mean: therefore I will not meddle with it: neither will I meddle with popish names and titles of your Churches, though you muster them up so valorously as if you meant to terrify the readers with the very names of them: only this I find your demand in both, to be: how the Church (and Parish-assemblies) of England can be false; the rest dropped, or rather scattered abroad throughout your Demands, is but your unsavery salt, which you have cast out upon the dunghill of your counter work: all being (as you think) so couched together, as that it cannot be easily raked abroad: but I will try, if by the help of God and the truth of his word, I can show what unsavery stuff it is.  
8 Answ. To these your 7. and 8. Demands I answer: that to hold and maintain a national Church: that is to hold, that any nation can be a church, now in the time of the Gospel, we deem to be erroneous and false: and do affirm that no warrant or defence for it can be found in the word of God. It is an human invention, and differeth from the testament of Christ, which showeth many Churches to be in a nation or Country: as in judea Asia, Galatia etc. Gala. 1.2.22. Rev. 1.4. But not any nation to be a Church.  
Now that yours is a Nationall Church, not only the name and title, as it is usually called, (besides your own grant) but the constitution also showeth: for it hath a pastor over the whole nation, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Metropolitan and Primate over all England: your most reverend father in God, who maketh & consecrateth the Diocesian Bishops, whereupon ariseth Diocesian Churches or Sees: and they again make your Parish Priests, to the Archbishops: and to his successors the inferior Bishops have sworn (So help them God in jesus Christ) all due reverence and obedience. This your book of consecration showeth: and we desire you to show us warrant for those things in the Scripture, if you can: or else show us where you have learned them.  
In your 8 Demand you say thus; The name, calling, and office of these Bishops (for either you must mean these Bishops (or the like) or else you speak nothing to the matter in hand) Whether (say you) we respect, ordination of ministers, or power of jurisdiction: is the same for substance, expressed in the New testament. And this (you say) hath been and will be proved, seeing it hath had a continual succession from the Apostles time unto this day etc.  
If you were as ready to prove, as you are to affirm things, than were your valour something worth. But you and the rest, are so loath to be drawn to prove you ministry and ordination by the word of God, that if you cannot make us take your word for the lawfulness thereof, than you will try by all means possible how you can get us into some prison, and keep us there, until you have found your proof out of some other dark corner: for by the light of God's word we think you will never be able to prove the lawfulness thereof.  
These things that you say, have indeed been often by others affirmed: but never otherwise proved then by you at this present. But if you good sir, would now take the pains to prove what you have said, by the word of God, your pains would deserve thanks of many: And withal, let me entreat you sir I pray you (because you say it hath had a continual succession from the Apostles time unto this day) to show me, for my learning, which of the Apostles was the Arch Apostle or Archbishop (If you please so to call him) over or before all the rest, and from whom (or by what authority) he had that high place and Lordly office. And also where, and with whom he left that his Arch-Metropolitane authority to lord it over the rest, as these do at this day, as you say.  
I profess unfeignedly, that if I could see these things proved by the word of God, I would soon (through God's mercy) change my mind.  
But in the mean time, to let pass the rest of that frothy stuff, which might be raked together in these your 7 and 8 Demands, I will come again to your 7 demand, though I could from the 16.17.18. and 19 lines in your 8 Demand light you such a candle as I think you would be loath that any should see the light thereof, but I will not blow at that coal now, yet you (against your will I am sure) have made a fair beginning to kindle it, where you say thus, The Pope was not Antichrist before he had gotten the title of universal Bishop, nor complete until he had gotten into his bands both swords, that is, both Civil and Ecclesiastical Dominion: if I should now add but a little of your own fuel to that coal, these your words would discover a great part of the mystery of iniquity which grows in your ministry at this day. But to let that pass, nothing doubting but God in his good time, by the brightness of the Gospel, will cause the same to appear more and more daily, I will come to your 7 Demand, where you tell us of the Gospel sound and substantially taught and professed: and the sacraments so rightly administered and received in your Church, as for proportion no country in the world (you say) nor Nationall Church whatsoever, can afford the like, etc.  
The like vain boast of all the grounds of Christian religion, sound held and professed, etc. I met with in your third Demand: but neither there nor hear you speak any word of the practice, Christian religion, and of the kingly power and office of Christ governing your Church: of these things you say nothing: nothing how Christ ought to reign as King in his Church, by his own Laws and ordinances executed, and administered in and by his own offices and officers which he hath given unto and appointed in his Church for that work, Ephe. 4.11.12.13. Rom. 12.6.7.8.9. Not a word of this, I pray you Sir, let not this candle be light, howsoever you do: you may make your people think that Christ will be a Prophet to teach them, and a Priest to sacrifice for them, though he be not a King to rule and reign over them in and by his own Laws and officers: they peradventure know not (or dare not tell you) that this is a denying of apart of the mediatorship of Christ: therefore Sir, as long as you can, let them not know the kingly office of Christ, nor what the Holy Ghost saith in Luk. 19.27. let them know no other government, for the Church but your spiritual courts: it will serve their turn well enough, until the Lord shall move their hearts better to consider and discern the truth of his will revealed in his word, which in his good time he will do unto all those that earnestly desire, and with upright hearts seek and labour to worship and serve him in spirit and in truth. And now I will labour to show the deceit of your vainglory in boasting of the word and sacraments, which you say are so sound taught and administered, etc.  
You would have us (and all men) take it for granted that the nation of England is the true visible Church of Christ: which you are not able to prove: than you go on, telling us of the sound and substantial things in this your Church: but we would first entreat you to show us your Church constituted and builded according to the scripture: if your Church be as you would make us believe, then show it, that we may see and discern whether it be sound and substantially built of choice trees, and of precious living stones (to the best of man's discerning) hewed and squared and fastened together according to the heavenly pattern: every stone living, elect and precious: (I say still in the best of man's discerning) every stone having his beauty, his burden and order: all of them labouring to support one another, to edify one another, to exhort, to admonish and reprove one another, that so they may be the habitation of God, as these scriptures do show, Exo. 19.5.6. and chap. 25.8.9, 40. 1. Chro. 29.2. Zach. 14.21. compared with Heb. 8.1.2.5.6. etc. Chap. 9.11.14.1. Pet. 2.4.5.7.8.9. Act. 2.37.41.42. Rev. 1.5.6, Heb. 3.13. Chap. 10.24.15. Lev. 19.17. Gala. 6.1 2. with many other, which I omit.  
The material Temple (which was but a type of this) we read to be built from the very foundation: of choice costly perfect stones: the beams and rafters of choice Ceaders, Algummim trees, 1. King. 5.17. Chap. 6.7. 2. Chro. 2.8. Ezra. 3.7.12. etc.  
But of the incomparable beauty and unutterable excellency of this spiritual Temple▪ under the holy ministry & happy government of Christ, it must be such as none may grow nor be planted there, until they be first cut off from their corrupt natural stock where they grew before: and then be grafted into the true olive tree, the true vine: yea and being planted and engrafted, that plant, that branch that bringeth not forth good fruit, but bringeth forth evil fruit apparently seen and known, must be cut of and cast out, Rom. 11.17.18.19.20.21. 1. Cor. 6.11. Tit. 3.3. etc. Rom. 6.4.5.6. etc. Math. 3.10. and 7.19. and 15.13. Luk. 13.6. joh. 15.6. Math. 18.15.16.17. Rom. 16.17.18. 1. Cor. 5.11.12.13. Now show us your Church to be thus built, and thus ordered according to the testament of Christ: I do not mean thus built in perfect manner: but that every member of your Church in the plating thereof do in the best of man's discerning, according to Godly judgement, in his or their measure, hewn, fitted and squared for the building, before ●e be fastened there into: for as the Apostle saith, We which live, must no more live unto ourselves, but unto the will of him that died for us and rose again: Ephe. 4.22.23.24. 2 Cor. 5.15.17. 1 Pet. 4.3. We must be new creatures, for we are the workmanship of God created anew into Christ jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them, Ephe. 2.10.  
When you have proved (and showed us) your Church thus framed, fashioned, and ordered, than we will take a view of those things which you say (but you prove not) to be, therein so sound and substantially taught and administered.  
But if you still boast of those good things in your Church, and yet your Church itself be built of rough tree, or rotten timber, hay and stubble, or of the thorns and briars of the wilderness, and with such dead or hard stones as cannot be hewn and squared, and fastened into the building together, according to the heavenly prtterne, then is your Church a false Church, and deceitful, notwithstanding all your sound and substantial things therein: which things although they be (indeed) both sound and substantial of themselves, yet will they not keep up your tottering building but in time it will fall and come to nought. And this at this time shall serve for answer to your 7 and 8 Demands: only thus much more: because I would not have you any more boast, or go about to dazzle our eyes with the sight of those things which you say are in your Church, until you have showed us the true form and fashion of the building of your Church, I will demand of you this one question;  
When the Prophet Haggai, chap. 1. reproved the jews for that God's house was not builded among them: would it have been a sufficient answer for them, think you Sir, to have said to the Prophet thus, We have costly and fair, sound and substantial ceilings of the sweetest and purest wood, costly carved and curiously wrought, with many goodly and rich hangings, cushing, carpets, and curtains, with so many other costly and sumptuous ornaments and deckings, yea all whatsoever, according to the appointment of the law for God's house, as for the proportion, no Country in the world can afford the like. Nay Sir, admit they should also have said thus. And behold also, we have the foundation laid, and we have many expert and excellent builders, all of them sound and learned workmen: and for instruments, also, to hue and square the timber and stone, we have so good as none can be better: of which timber and stones also we have so great plenty, and so excellent good, with all other things necessary to finish the building, as for proportion no country in the world can afford the like: therefore although the stones be neither laid, nor squared, nor the timber hewed, fitted nor framed: yet have we the house of God well builded.  
What think you Sir, would this have been a sufficient answer to have satisfied the prophet? if no, consider then how little your vain boast will stand you in stead in the day of your appearing: search the Scriptures, and you shall find there, that every true visible Church of Christ must consist of a company of people (be they many or few) that are called out and separated from the froward generation of the world, by the Gospel, (john. 15.19. 17.6.9.11.14, etc. Act. 2.40. 2. Cor. 6.15 16.17.18.) and joined (or built) together into a holy communion and fellowship, among themselves, Act. 2.41.44. Ephe. 2.13.19.20.22.) all of them being (in their measure believers, pricked in their hearts for their sins, and now labouring together to continue in the Apostles doctrine, Act. 2.27.42.  
Being thus coupled and knit together they are called in the Scripture the Temple of God, 1. Cor. 3.16.17. the habitation of God, Ephe. 2.22. the Church of God, 1. Cor 1.2.2. Cor. 11. unto the which Church he daily addeth those that he will save, Act. 2.41.47. they are then called, Saints, Rom. 1.7. 1. Cor. 1.2. they are called Holy brethren. Heb. 3.1. they are called the body of Christ, and members for their part of the whole building of God. Consider what is said, etc. 2. Tim. 2.7. etc.  
9 Demand. And now to your Counter-Demand, which is: Whether any new laws can or aught to be made, or enacted: or any further reformation made without the christian Princes or Magistrates consent, etc.  
9 Answer. I Answer no. And I further add, that whatsoever subjects, of what degree or state soever they be, that shall go about either to enact any new laws in the King's Dominions, or to reform the order and state of the Kingdom, contrary to that order which is already established, without the consent and lawful authority of the Prince & Magistrate, he is by the word of God judged and condemned worthy of damnation, Rom. 13.12. 5.6. Rev. 12.18.19. And if for this his or their offence, the Prince and Magistrates do put him or them to death (as by their lawful authority they may) it is no more than they have justly and worthily deserved for their evil doings.  
The next word in this your 9 Demand, are thus set down, and thus oddly pointed, or ever in a well ordered Church hath been enacted, or made and whether, they have done well, to separate without the King's majesties leave and licence, and consent of the state.  
These your refined words, as they be in this fashion set down, I do not well underst and 2 therefore I will give you no other answer than is already made in the former words: desiring that this which is here answered may be compared with that which is written for answer to the last 4 lines of your second Demand, and I think it will give sufficient satisfaction: and for the better cleared of all other meanings: I will demand of you these two questions desiring your answer, if not printed, yet under your hand writing.  
Quest. 1. Whether Christ be not the only wise God and everlasting King, and perfect law giver to his Church: and whether all Kings, potentates, Princes and people be not bound to submit themselves as true and faithful subjects unto him and to his laws given unto his Church: or whether any or all of them may by their royal power, learning or authority, altar, change, leave out, or add unto any of those laws which Christ hath already set forth in his last will and testament.  
Quest. 2 Whether every particular man (and consequently all men be not bound by the word of God to separate themselves from every known sin and error (whether in faith, or conversation of life) that the Lord shall give him sight of: and labour diligently to reform themselves and their families according to the law and will of God revealed in his word, without the consent of the Christian Prince and Magistrates under whom he liveth: or whether they be bound to go on and continue still in their sin or error, and not to separate from the same until they have first sued for, and obtained the Princes and Magistrates leave and licence and consent of the state, that is indeed and briefly whether God must be, God or no, eexcept men will give him leave.  
10 Demand. your tenth and last Demand is. Whether it were not the Separatists best course to return again to God's true Church and people, from whom (you say) upon some conceited hard dealing they have made an unlawful rent, and there to confer with the best learned: and if still their consciences be somewhat tender, to supplicate for some favour and liberty: or if (say you) they will not take this course: whether it wear not good for them for the avoiding of scandill, and in expectance of some prosperous success by the permission of our noble King and honourable Counsel, to remove to Virginea, and make a Plantation there, in hope to convert infidels to christianity.  
Although I can partly guess in what humour you propounded this your Demand, yet I will not answer you according to that your humour, but I will answer you even as I desire to follow the truth in love and peace with you and with all men.  
I answer, Those that have separated and made an unlawful rent from God's true Church and people (as you say) it is the best course for them to return again, and with godly sorrow to manifest their true and unfeigned repentance for the unlawful rent they have made.  
And that this may be the sooner effected and brought to pass: seeing that you still take it for granted that your Nationall Church, and Parish-Assemblies of England, is the true visible Church of Christ: I do once again entreat you to show us the true form and fashion of your Church: And lay you apart all wrath and Envious Anger, that so we may together in peace and love: you with us, and we with you, take a view and consider of your Church, and compare the form & fashion thereof with the form and fashion of the true visible Church of Christ, as it is described unto us in the scripture: If you can prove your Church or parish assemblies to be like unto that true visible Church of Christ both for true matter whereof it is built, viz. Saints: And also for the manner of the building, being coupled and combined according to the heavenly pattern. Both you and all men shall see, that I am willing, not only to return again, but also to labour with godly diligence, to live in a holy communion and fellowship with you, labouring to obey the laws and ordinances of our Lord and Saviour jesus Christ, supporting and strengthening one another in all love: And if this good and godly course may be accomplished: not only I myself, but all of us, that now are separated from you, would much more willingly and gladly return again and labour to plant ourselves again in the meanest part of England, to enjoy peace with holiness and to follow the truth in love among our kindred and friends in our own native country, then either to continue where now many of us as yet live, or to plant ourselves in Virginia or in any other country in the world, upon any conditions, or hope of any thing in this life whatsoever. Yet even for Virginia thus much, When some of ours desired to have planted ourselves there, with his majesties leave upon these three grounds, first, that they might be means of replanting the gospel amongst the heathens. Secondly that they might live under the King's government. Thirdly, that they might make way for, and unite with others, what in them lieth, whose consciences are grieved with the state of the Church in England: the Bishops did by all means oppose them, and their friends therein; and though they, above other men, pretend the planting of the Gospel amongst heathens, as you here do, yet have they been rather content, that the most vile miscreants in the kingdom and such as were rather like to turn christians to heathens then to make of heathens Christians, than they.  
And thus much for answer to your ten Counter Demands: nothing doubting but we shall be able to bear the weight of your next blow with patience, when it comes forth. If in the mean time I have not answered you to any or all these your demands as you desire, yet I have endeavoured myself to do it according to truth in the best of my understanding, as the word of God hath directed me.  
I do entreat you sir, not to suffer the unadvised anger of your own evil and froward heart, cause you to take things in the worst part; although I confess that at the first sight, or view hereof, this my harsh, rude, and unlearned writing may seem unpleasant and offensive: yet upon better and more serious considerations you shall have less cause to find fault.  
Therefore sir, When you find herein any thing that may move you to take offence, I pray you pass by it in love, & show you forth that godly patience, which you sometime teach to others. Remember sir, He that is slow to wrath, is of great wisdom: but he that is of a hasty mind exalteth folly, Pro. 14.29. And again, he that is slow unto anger is better than the mighty man: and he that ruleth his own mind is better than he that winneth a City. Pro, 16, 32.  
Consider also, sir, It is you that have drawn me to write, and therefore you have the less cause to be angry, with me: except your heart be envious, full of deceit & malice, covetousness, pride, and vainglory, Rom. 1.29.30.31. against which things (considering how evil they be in any) it may be hoped that you have learned to strive. Philip. 2.3. and do labour to be purged from an evil conscience, Heb. 10.21.22.23.24, I pray you sir, bear with me for writing thus vulearnedly: I have endeavoured myself in the best manner that I can, to speak according to the word, as taught of the holy Ghost: from which, where I have swerved, or abused the same, I humbly crave of you, & of every godly wise Reader, Christian correction, rather than pardon: for it ought to go before, and shall be more profitable unto me: yea greater every way shall the benefit thereof be, both for me, and for others also: for I being better instructed, shall through God's mercy, both repent and learn to amend my faults; and others shall reap the fruits of God's graces which more plentifully by your godly and diligent care, lovingly to correct what you see amiss: unto the which duty of love, if I may any way stir you and others up, I shall not think my labour wholly lost, but shall be very glad to see you and others so well affected. Far ye well.  
Let all Glory and honour, praise and thanks be given to God alone.  
FINIS.