A Confutation of the principal points of popery; By John Knewstub.  
Imprinted in London at the Three Cranes in the Vine-tree by Thomas Dawson, for Richard Sergier.   

To those Gentlemen in suffolk whom the true worshipping of God hath made right worshipful, grace and peace, be multiplied through Iesus Christ.  
THe holy Apostle S. paul doth plainly teach, 
Rom. 8.18.  that all things fall out for the best unto them that love God: which thing, the manifest departing of many from the faith, doth sufficiently confirm: for this defection& falling away from the truth, doth give unto the children of God, occasion of a more near search,& diligent inquiry after the truth, while they haue not satisfied themselves, to set opinion against opinion, and persuasion against persuasion: but as the aduersaries of the gospel haue beautified their errors with the best, that their ability could afoord: so the friends of the same, haue from time to tim●●ade it manifest, that all that beaut●● was but borrowed,& that their dealing therein hath been such, as is the practise of an impudent woman, who by wearing the hear of another, seeketh the commendation of that beauty, which is not her own: Whereby this gain hath grown unto the godly: that against temptation, touching the truth of doctrine: our enemy findeth us better armed and more sufficiently provided: in that we haue not onely an opinion, that that which we hold should be true, but can also bring forth store of arguments and authorities, as well for the upholding of that, as for the overthrow of the contrary. So that, entrance is both ways denied unto the enemy.  
moreover while we see the gospel, continually casting out such huge heaps of foam and Froth: wee learn, that it cannot be otherwise, but that ourselves are to be cast out as scum, unless the Gospel shal find favour with our affection, aswell as it hath entertaimment with our tongue. For seeing that monstrous dounghil of Popery, is nothing else, but the sweepings of the Gospel: Howe should not at the least experience, which profiteth the dullest heads, in this point prevail with us? And seeing the Gospel keepeth not all that come unto her: can it be that we should not godly fear as well the danger of our deuorcement from her: as now we are ashamed, not to be reputed as those, who bee betrothed unto her: Now as the wicked( taking more liberty of life, and growing into a greater contempt of al duty, both unto God and man, by being offended at the gospel for the breaking out of their wickedness: whether in opinion or conversation, who haue been brought up some time in the bosom of the church:) thereby do evidently declare, that they are of the wicked: for unto the good, all things fall out for their good: So do we by getting this gain of these controversies in religion, that thereby we better both our iudgement, and our affection toward the truth: make it assured, unto ourselves and unto our own souls, that wee are of that number that fear the lord, whose property it is, even to gain greatly by that, which bringeth loss unto many. Let our wariness thē be so much the greater, and our pains so much the more, as the times whereinto we be fallen, do tel us how hard a matter it is, to keep us even and upright with our God: and how daungerous: when we once be trusted with his Gospel, to deal vnfaithfully in our obedience toward the same.  
The cause why I haue published this matter, is, for that he, who required my answer to his Assertions did not vouchsafe for al that after he had received it, so much as once to read it. whereupon diuers haue moved me, to make that common unto more, which found so small favour with him, for whose cause it was taken in hand, that seeing himself, would not give any occasion, to think my pains well bestowed, in respect of any good done unto him: yet should it be lawful for others,( the lord blessing it) so to profit by occasion of him, as to receive some fruit of that, which was not done but at his request, and for him.  
These my labours,( how slender soever, in the defence of religion, against popery and superstition) I am bold to offer unto your worships: principally because the lord hath advanced you unto the greatest worship, that is, to the worshipping of himself in spirit and truth, and unto those minds that bear such good will towards his truth, hath joined in like maner arms of great authority in your country, to be able to cherish, credit, and maintain the same: secondarily to leave behind me a perpetual testimony, of the duty and good will, which both in this common respect, and in many other private touching myself, I do bear unto you. And last of all, that this public record, might become a spur unto your further profiting and a stay, to keep you from the danger of falling away, and not answering unto the hope and expectation of such a beginning. The lord of all majesty and power, continue his graces toward you, that he may haue the praise, of a continued and complete work of mercy in you.  
Your woorships to command in the Lord. John Knewstub.   

An answer unto certain assertions, tending to maintain the church of Rome, to be the true and catholic church.  

Assertion.  
IT is an article of our Faith, to beleeue the catholic Church, whose Scholmaister is the holy Ghost, and therfore in the creed that article is placed next to the article of the belief in the holy Ghost: by whose continual instruction and assistance being directed, 
1. Tim. 3.  shee cannot err in matters of faith. For as saint Paul saith, she is Columna& firmamentum veritatis: so that wee are all bound her to beleeue and obaie, yea howsoever it seemeth to our sense& understanding.   

answer.  
YOu affirm that we ought to beleeue the catholic church. It is true. we ought to be most assured that the death of Christ was not fruitless, but that by it the Lord hath purchased a peculiar people unto himself, taking them out of all places where it hath liked him, according to the good pleasure of his will: without binding of himself, and his grace unto any particular person, country, or place alone, and this we ought to beleeue.  
Consider it well therfore with yourself, that the church is a matter that falleth into belief, in so much that good Christians harkeninge overmuch unto their reason& sense, haue sometime judged amiss therof: taking it not to be, when notwithstanding it is, or not there to be, where in truth it is: stumbling at such things, as sense& reason are wont to be offended withal: as that the persons be often in number few, in condition base, in estimation contemptible, subject unto the injurious dealings of the world: and therfore not onely not equal unto the rest, but in the iudgement of sense& reason much inferior. So that necessarily belief taketh place in the article of the church. And if this be true in particular churches, howe much more is the use of faith required for the catholic& universal, church, which can not bee subject to any man his sight. You affirm moreover that the holy Ghost is schoolmaster unto the church,& that therefore this article touching the church is placed next unto that of our belief in the holy Ghost. I do admit your gathering for there nere placing,& I heartily pray you consider what can be said for the order of their standing. For albeit their places be nere together, yet the article of our belief in the holy Ghost in order is the former, taking the first place& the vpperhande of the other, whereby we are admonished, that if any people claim the title of the catholic church, we are not bound to beleeue them, before they make good proof, that the holy Ghost hath been their schoolmaster. For they may not come into to the possession of the catholic church, but by proof, that the doctrine with they hold, hath been taught them by that heavenly teacher. And therefore let the writings of the holy Ghost bee perused, which are the caconical scriptures, as witnesseth Chrysostom in this words: 
Chrysost. de Fide& Lege Naturae.  Omnia quaecunque vel Lex dicit, vel Prophetae vaticinantur, vel Apostoli praedicant, Sancto spiritui verè tribuuntur& ascribuntur: And if it shall appear by them, that you haue been taught of him, we will yield unto you the title of the catholic church: But if you will divide the holy Ghost from the Scriptures, vrginge us only with his bare name, and do not warrant by the word that, which you ascribe unto him: we can not receive such a spirit for holy Ghost: because we find a grant both of the Spirit and the word, passed from the Lord unto the church, to continue for ever jointly together. 
Esay 59.21.  Hoc foedus meum cum eis dicit Dominus: Spiritus meus qui est in te,& verba mea quae posui in ore tuo, non recedent, de ore tuo,& de ore seminis tui, dicit Dominus, ex nunc& vsque in sempiternum. This is my covenant with them, saith the Lord: my Spirit that is vpon thee,& my word which I haue put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, from hence forth even for ever. You say likewise that the church can not err in matters of faith, because S. paul saith shee is Columna& Firmamentum veritatis: If she be the pillar of truth, let us, I pray you, see the banner of truth, I mean the word of God displayed in your Church, which( you say) is the pillar thereof, and then we will not refuse to fight under your standard: But you haue hide the word of God from the multitude, in the close vessel of a strange and unknown tongue, and from the rest in the dark dens and dungeons of your own expositions. For you will allow thē to make no sense or construction thereof, otherwise than you shall ratify and allow. And therfore if the church bee the pillar of truth, wee finding no truth with you, can aclowledge no true Church among you. I am to crave of you, even by the mercies of Christ, that you would diligently peruse that whole chapter of S. paul, where you gather that the Church can not err, because shee is the pillar and ground of truth: and then you shall find that it is not likely by his dealing for her direction, and that by writing, even in the least things, that he was of opinion shee could not err. For he hath not left her unto her own iudgement vpon that hope, no not in matters, where there was the least fear of error& deceit. The Apostle, as it appeareth in that chapter, had taught timothy, that Bishops& Deacons may be no dronkards, no fighters, no men given to filthy lucre, no men whose children live without awe or comely order: that their wifes should be honest, no slanderers, but sober& faithful in all things, immediately after these instructions he hath these words, these things writ I unto the, trusting to come to the very shortly, but if I tarry long, that thou maiest know yet how to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living god, the pillar& ground of truth. Saint Paul here derecteth timothy by writing, how to beehaue himself for dealings in the church, touching those things where error seemeth least to be feared. For who would suspect the church of so much want in iudgement, that shee were to be warned& that by writing, in hir choice of Ministers to beware of drunkards, fighters, covetous persons,& men that can not rule their own housholds. A man would think that civil men, who haue no help but from flesh and blood, were sufficiently able to discern of them selfs, that such infamous persons were not meet men to serve in a place of so great credit. Who would not haue trusted the church with greater matters than these, if S. paul by his example had not made us suspicious& jealous over her herein? Who when he giveth so much( as you think) unto the church, even then& there saieth: These things haue I written, that thou mayst know( if I tarry long) how to behave thyself in the church of god, which is the pillar of truth. He should rather haue said( if he had been of your opinion, touching the impossibility of the church to err) I will not trouble thee with writing of these matters: there is no danger although I neither speak nor writ therof. For the church by whom they are to be chosen, having promise of such assistance continually from the holy Ghost, as that it is not possible for her to err, can order matters of greater difficulty than these. She can not err in matters of faith, to judge amiss of thē,& therfore is error much less to be feared, in discerning that so gross evils as these bee, cannot beseem him, who is to serve the lord in so high a calling. I heartily beseech you to mark it well, that in the same place where you ground the Church can not err, the Apostle hath left a doctrine unto the church least shee should err, and that in matters most easy to be discussed. So that if the Church bee voided of error, it is not otherwise, than so farforthe as shee giveth an attentive ear to the writings of the Holy Ghost, which are given to keep hir from swaruinge. For the Apostle doth first instruct her by writing, before he tell us of this privilege, which( you say) upholdeth a freedom from erringe. How bee it you shall hardly persuade any man of indifferent iudgement, that the Apostle would haue us to conceive so highly of hir impossibility to err in matters of faith: as not to inquire whither shee follow therein the rule of the written word: when in his own practise, he leaveth her not without direction in writing, touching matters not of faith, but( which is less subject unto error) of conversation: and that even in the same place, where this privilege of hers seemeth to be most upholden by him. Saint paul instructeth a man with doctrine and principles of truth, that he may know howe to behave himself in the church, which is the pillar of truth: But you first of all without doctrine, thrust a man vpon your church:& then force him to embrace such doctrine, as ther he shal find received without further examination: because( as you say) it is the pillar of truth, and therfore can not err. I leave it to the iudgement of every indifferent reader to consider, whither this maner of proceeding, bee any thing like unto that course which the Apostle keepeth. It were the spediest dispatch of al controversies, although not the best, yf the one party should bee first put in possession, and ther vpon haue title unto al things possessed: But it were the best, although not the spediest dispatch, if the title were first assuredly known and determined,& thereupon the true owner put in possession. You will first haue the possession of the Church,& thereupon be entitled to the truth, and all other treasures thereof: Whereas you ought first to prove your title to the truth to be good:& then might you lawfully haue possession of the church. As concerning the sense and meaning of that place of the Apostle, Chrysostome maketh an other exposition of it, than your church of Rome can digest. Est columna( inquit Chrysost.) ac firmamentum veritatis, 
Chrysost. epistola Pauli ad Tim. 1. capit. 3.  non quemadmodum illud Iudaicum templum: Hoc enim est quod Fidem continet ac praedicationem: quip veritas Ecclesiae& columna& firmamentum est. He saith that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church. He will haue the Church to bee a pillar hewn out of the truth. In his iudgement the words are to be expounded passively, so that the meaning of this saying.( The church is the ground& pillar of truth) is, that the church is a pillar and made one of the truth. You would haue us to discern the scriptures by the church, because( as you say) she cannot err: but Augustine would haue us to discern the church by the scriptures, his words are these: 
Aug. in epist. 166.  In scriptures didicimus Christum: in scriptures didicimus Ecclesiam: Has scripturas communiter habemus, quare non in eis& Christum& Ecclesiam communiter retinemus? Now that we haue sene the strength and ground of your beginning, I pray you ●ou consider in good earnest the form and manner of your proceeding. And reasoning in this trial of true Religion. You first appoint a church which( as you take it) is the church of Rome, a number of people who are altogether of your iudgement in these matters that are called into question, those you say can not err, and therfore by them you will be tried, As if in causes of trial, a man might pick out all the men himself who were to pass vpon him:& that lawe& reason would permit a man to refuse God& the country,& to put himself vpon his fellow prisoners, yea and vpon those only of them, who were indicted of the same trespass, that he standeth to be tried of. It is against al right& reason, you should be both party& judge. Augustine saith in the place before alleged Scripturas communiter habemus, The scriptures are common and indifferent to both, and therefore meet to judge: The roman church is a party, and therefore not fit to bear witness,& much less to judge in this cause. Our saviour Christ affirmeth that if he should haue had no testimony but from himself, 
John. 5.  his witness should not haue ben true,& therfore willeth thē in the same chapter, to search the scriptures, for they( saith he) bear witness of me. You testify of yourself alone, applealing always unto your own church, which as you say can not err,& therfore your witness( by the testimony of our saviour Christ) is found not to be true. Whereunto agreeth Chryso. his words are these. 
Chrys. de sancto& adorando spiritu.  Venit Montanus dicens: Spiritum sanctum habeo: venit Manichoeus, dicens, spiritum Sanctum habeo: non fuit autem manifestum, vt igitur ne plures nomine seducerentur, quoniam invisibiliter donum venturum erat, dicit: Quando venerit Paracletus spiritus veritatis qui a patre procedit, ille vos memores faciet verborum meorum,& inducet vos in omnem veritatem: non enim a semetipso loquetur. Nam si quem videritis dicentem Spiritum sanctum habeo:& non loquentem evangelica, said propria, is a seipso loquitur,& non est spiritus sanctus in ipso. Sicut enim dicit de seipso, ego a meipso non loquor: vt soluat suspicionem deceptionis, imò errorem a veritate separet: ita vt ostendat quinam habent spiritum sanctum,& qui non habent, said simulant se habere: a me audistis quid tradidi. Quando veniet invisibilis spiritus mea loquetur. Si videritis aliquem evangelica repetentem, profectò spiritum sanctum habet, veniet enim spiritus sanctus, vt recordari vos faciat eodum quae docui. Si quis igitur eorum qui dicuntur habere spiritum sanctum, dicat aliquid a seipso,& non ex Euangeliis, non credite. Montanus and Manichaeus two heretics, came& affirmed that they had the holy Ghost: therfore our saviour Christ least more should bee seduced by that name, for as much as the gift was invisible and not to bee sene, saith, when the holy ghost the spirit of truth shall come, he shall bring my words unto your remembrance, and shall led you into all truth. For he shall not speak of himself. For if you see any man that saith, I haue the holy Ghost, and speaketh not out of the Gospel, but out of himself, he speaketh of himself, and the Holy Ghost is not in him. For as our saviour Christ said of himself, I speak not of myself, that thereby he might take away all suspicion of deceit: Nay rather that he might put a plain difference between truth and error: in like maner that he might declare who they bee, that haue the holy ghost, and who haue him not, he saith: ye haue heard of me, what I haue delivered, to wit: that when the invisible Spirit shall come, he shall speak of me. If ye shall see any man confirming his cause by the gospel, that man hath the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost shall come that he may bring to your memories, such things as I haue taught. Therefore if any of them who are said to haue the holy Ghost, speak any things of themselves,& not out of the Gospel, beeleue them not. Consider I pray you, that Chrysostome will haue the holy Ghost discerned to be in men( by this mark) of speaking not of themselves, but out of the word and Gospel of God. Your church therfore which standeth especially vpon this point: Wee are the church& therfore can not err: hath not the holy Ghost: for the holy Ghost appealeth not to himself. And if to speak out of the word of God, bee the true note of the spiri● of God, and as he saith a plain distinction between error& truth: then need we not inquire from what place or people he cometh, as if he were only bound to them that had antiquity& consent to allege for their Religion: but are to content us with this( as the true note) to wit that the spirit of God doth not speak of himself, but out of the word and Gospel of God. Our charge is not given us from god, to make iniquisition from what people he cometh, but with what voice he speaketh. For if he speak of himself, that is, if he justify not that which he saith by the Gospel of god, he is a deceiver, what antiquity& consent soever bee alleged for him. And therfore Chrysost. in the same place, immediately after the words now alleged, speaking against the heretic Manichaeus, saith thus: ubi legisti haec? ex quo non legit haec scripta, said a seipso loquitur, manifestum est quod non habet spiritum sanctum. Where hast thou red these things? seeing that he readeth not these things in the scripture, but speaketh of himself, it is manifest that he hath not the holy Ghost. Would to god that you& such as you are, who bind the truth,& therfore the holy Ghost the spirit of truth, unto antiquity, succession of bishops,& consent of people: grounding your Religion thereupon: would carefully consider of the iudgement, not onely of Chrysostome, but of Christ himself: thereby to discern who they bee, that haue the spirit of god, and who haue him not: then should you clearly se that he is to be discerned by his speech,& neither by his yeares, nor yet by the great train& multitude of men with follow after him,& least of al by the order that they observe in following one an other. His speech doth so plainly bewray him, that Chrysostome is not afraid to say, it is a manifest matter, not subject to any exception, that if any red not out of the written word that which they teach other, those same haue not the holy Ghost. For the holy Ghost which was promised, was promised to bee such a one, as should not speak of himself, but appeal unto the Gospel and word of God for his warrant. Any man therefore may clearly se, howe justly we challenge that Spirit that speaketh in your Church not to be the holy Ghost, for he appealeth to himself, his councils and Doctors, making us believe that there is no certainty in the word, and therfore no safe testimony to bee had from thence: not driving us to the Scriptures, there to inquire after him: but pulinge us from thence unto the church, because she can not( as he saith) be deceived. The speeches of your Spirit are these: Thus believeth the Church, which can not err, this is confirmed by councils and warranted by Doctors: This hath for it antiquity, universality and consent. The voice of the holy ghost is this: haue you not red in your lawe? it is written of me in the volume of the book: the scripture must be fulfilled: it is thus written. now if the holy Ghost must haue the scriptures to testify and speak for him, not being allowe● to speak of himself as binding men therfore to receive him because he can not err: surely your privilege is monstruously great, to haue that liberty& credit in your own cause to speak of yourself, which is not granted unto the holy Ghost himself. I would be resolved of this one thing by you, why our saviour Christ should put himself vpon the Scriptures for his trial being head of the church: and you taking yourselves for members therof, yet refuse it. If you think you should offer yourselves wrong because you onely haue the true sense of the Scripture, remember that then our saviour Christ having the true understanding of the word, did offer injury unto himself in putting himself vpon the scriptures, dealing with these men, who had not the true sense thereof, because they were not of the church, which is the pillar of truth. If you say it is not the safest way to persuade, and therefore you sand them to the church as unto a safer way: consider that in so doing you charge our saviour Christ with unfaithful dealing, who hath not sent them to tha● trial of the church, which could not fail● but lead them unto him: but choose rathe● to sand them to that trial of the Scripture● which( as you think) may be drawn thi● way and that way, and therfore not with out great danger to deceive. It can not be avoyded but that both our saviour Christ must offer himself wrong( if your assertion be true) in putting himself vpon the scriptures, to them who had not the true sense of the scripture: And also deal vnfaithfully in his fathers house, in suppressinge that which were the best able to led them into all truth: and sending them to that which could not but deceive them, they not having the true sense therof. I do therfore much marvel howe you can satisfy your own conscience, in groundinge your faith and persuading yourself touching religion, to rest safely wheresoever you shal find a number of people professing religion, who of long time together with a great number haue observed the same: seing that our saviour Christ never used any such reason to persuade them with were enemies unto truth. Dare you challenge such wisdom unto yourself, as to haue found out a wiser way to induce men unto the truth, or to continue them therein, then the onely wise God hath practised? Or dare you charge him with unfaithfulness, in concealing that manner of reasoning& persuading, wc is most able to prevail? Or dare you leaving out his manner of persuasion, use an other and yet promise unto yourself the best success thereby? As for his manner of perswadinge men unto the Gospel, and howe it differed from the seducers and false teachers that went before him, may appear plainly out of the scriptures. Which thing is well observed by Chrysostome in these words. 
Chrysost. de sancto& odoando spiritu.  Venerunt igitur illi falsi Christi,& non docuerunt ex lege& Prophetis, said ex seipsis loquuti sunt& ex propria sententia: salvator venit,& non discessit à lege, non discessit a Prophetis, said dicebat quasi in exemplo benè dixit Isaias, Et iterum, Nonne scriptum est in lege vestra? Et eum accederet ad eum diabolus dicit, Dominum Deum tuum adorabis& illi soli seruies. There came false Christes( saith Chrysost.)& they taught not out of the lawe& prophetes, but spake of them selfs: Our saviour Christ came,& he went not from the lawe, he went not from the Prophetes, but said( to give it you in example) Well spoken the Prophet Esaie. And again. Is it not written in your lawe? And when the devill came unto him, he said unto him. It is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. We haue here that manner of persuasion with our saviour Christ took to bee the best, and therefore practised the same: and not onely that, but( as Chrysostome saith) he was discerned therein, from the false Prophets which went before him. Wee may see also in this practise of our saviour Christ, a plain confutation of your strongest reason, which moveth you to fly from the scriptures unto fathers, Doctors, and the church. You were wont to say if one allege scriptures for his purpose, and another holding a contrary opinion, shall likewise bring in scriptures to vphoulde his iudgement: how shal the truth bee tried but by the writings and expositions of fathers vpon these places? here you see that satan would persuade his purpose by scriptures, our saviour Christ flieth not for defence unto the church, alleging the writings of the learned Iewes, and the expositions of the rabbins vpon that place, but by an other place of scripture, beateth out the true sense& meaning of that which was misaleaged by satan: to wit, that he might so hope for help and defence from God, as that he stood bound nevertheless to use such means as the Lord should give into his hands, because it was written in an other place of Scripture, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God; which he should haue done, if having means to go down safely, he should for all that haue cast himself headlong off the pinnacle, in hope that the lord would not suffer him to dash his foot against a ston. You may see that the scripture hath in itself sufficient light, to clear and make plain the dark places of her self: And therfore they ar justly charged to be infected with a most dangerous heresy, who persuade& maintain a great doubtfulness and obscurity to bee in the word, thereby to shun the reproof of their religion& conversation: according as Irenaeus testifieth in his third book. 
Irenaeus lib. 3. Cap. 2.  Haeretici, cum ex scriptures arguuntur, in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum scripturarum, quasi non rectè habeant neque fint ex authoritate:& quasi variè sint dictae:& quia non posset ex his inveniri veritas ab his qui nesciant traditionem. heretics when they are reproved by the scriptures, they return an accusation against the scriptures, as if they were not of sufficient authority, and as if they were doubtful& diuersty to be taken& expounded:& that the truth could not be found out by the scriptures, of those men which know not the tradition. These are the very speeches of your church at this day against the scriptures, that the scripture hath no right title and sufficient authority to decide controversies,& discern spirites, because it is but a dead letter,& that one place may bee taken in diuers& sundry senses,& that the true sense can not be had but onely in your church, because it knoweth the tradition, that is in what sense the fathers haue delivered it unto thē. I haue told you already that it was the practise of our saviour christ, to appeal unto the scriptures rather thē unto the church: so consider I pray you, that wee find it in the scriptures, that the wicked& ungodly haue appealed rather to the church, then to the Scriptures: reasoning as you do, that they were of the church and therfore could not be deceived: And thereupon haue taken liberty, not onely to neglect the word brought by the true Prophet of God, but also to persecute the bringer. For thus speak the Iewes against jeremy: 
jeremy. 18.  Come and let us imagine some devise against jeremy, for the lawe shall not perish from the Priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the Prophet: Come and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give hede unto any of his words. You may see that vpon this ground that the law could not perish from the Priest, nor the word from the Prophet, which is this in effect, that the church could not err: they take liberty to fight against the truth, and true church of God, and not to regard the words of the true Prophet of God.   

Assertion.  

Quatuor notae eiusdem Ecclesiae,  
Est Vna, Sancta, Apostolica, Catholica.   
1. In her is unity of Doctrine and Sacraments.  
2. In her is holinesse and perfection of a christian life, practised, used, and exercised, as devout serving of God both day and night, chastity of life, almesse deeds, fastings and other afflictions to bring the rebellious body in subiection to the spirit, building of Churches, universities, colleges, hospitals for the poor, lending of money for charity and not for usury, and a continual remembrance as well for the living as for the dead.  
3. In her ther is a continual succession as well of Bishops as of doctrine, from the Apostles time even unto this.  
4. In her is universality of faith doctrine and Religion.   

answer.  
YOu make iiii. notes or marks of the true church whereby shee is to bee known& discerned. The first for that shee is at unity within herself, both touching hir doctrine and Sacraments. The second because the fruits of holiness and true righteousness abound in hir. The third in that shee hath the Apostles doctrine delivered into her hands, by a continual succession of Bishops, from the Apostles time unto the end of the world, for I think that is your meaning, albeit your words warrant succession of bishops and Doctrine no longer than unto this time. The fourth, because her faith Doctrine and religion is universal. Because you bring forth proofs afterward( such as they be) for the strengthening of your opinion touching these marks& notes of the church: the answer thereunto shall sufficiently teach us what to think of this that you haue said, and in what sense and meaning, or with what caution and condition, these are to bee received as marks of the Church.   

Assertion.  
For the first. God saith by his Prophet jeremy. 
jeremy. 32.  Dabo eis cor vnum& viam unam. For the same Christ also prayed to his father. 
joan. 17.  As thou and I are one in deity, so grant that such as are mine may be one in concord. Which as you may red in the acts was granted him of his said father: 
Act. 4.  For there was in the primitive church, Cor vnum,& anima vna: Saint paul also prayed for the same, saying: Deus pacientiae& solatij debt vobis id ipsum ●apere in alterutrum, 
Roma. 15.  secundum jesum Christum, vt vnanimes uno ore honorificetis Deum& Patrem Domini nostri Iesu Christi. 
1. corinth. 1.  Et ●ibi: obsecro vt idipsum dicatis omnes,& ●on sint in vobis Schismata. Therefore I conclude that where discord& division is in matters of faith, there can not bee the church of Christ: unless you will affirm that god hath not performed his said promise made by ieremy, neither that the father heard the said prayer of his son for the unity of the church: And that Saint August. was greatly deceived, 
August. epis. 165.  who saith that in Cathedra unitatis, est doctrina veritatis.   

answer.  
TO prove that in the church is unity of doctrine& sacraments, you allege out of the Prophet these words: Dabo eis cor vnum& viam unam. 
Iere. 32. vers. 32.  I will give them one heart and one way. I hope you haue red the chapter, and therefore do remember that this people whom he promiseth to bring again out of captivity,& then to give them one hart and one way: had already a kind of unity and consent among them: 
Iere. 32. vers. 32  for the Prophet in this same chapter affirmeth, that the Princes Prophets Priests and people had consented to turn their backs vpon the Lord, and had set their idols in the house whereupon his name was called. And this their unity and agreement in such corrupt doctrine& worship of God, was the cause why the Lord( as he had decreed to punish them by giving them over into the hands of the Chaldeans) even so did execute the same decree in deed, And yet not so, but that he promiseth afterward in his time to bring them home again to their own land: and then to give them one hart and one way to fear him, and to plant sincere Religion& the true fear of god among them. You may see by this place, that there is no true unity but in verity and truth, because the Lord speaketh unto this people, who had great agreement in their corruption touching the service of God: as if they had been at deadly dissension: saying, I will give them one hart and one way. Your doctrine is not the verity, as God willing shal be plainly proved when I come to that place, and therfore your agreement howe great soever, is the most dangerous division that can be, for that it is sundered from the truth of Christ and his Gospel. I conclude therefore against you with this testimony, that because you haue not the verity with you, therefore you haue no unity among you. For this place plainly proveth, that it is true doctrine and religion, which maketh men to be of one heart and one way, in so much that the Lord when he promiseth to restore sincere worship and service of God, saith, I will give them one hart and one way. Our harts& ways do newer grow unto any unity in deed, before they bee established in true Religion: but be so variable, that wee may bee led by the crafty wiliness of men, from one error into another without any stop or stay. For in so many gross corruptions as haue entred into your church one after another,& one more corrupt then another: some whereof the most of you now( since the late reviving of the Gospel) begine t● blushy at: which of you ever before this time did once stand against any of them● Your ready consent to every of them without gainsaying, declareth that if there had been as many more of no less corruption, you should for all that haue had no powe● to haue withstood them. And no marvel, for we do never make any stay before wee come to the knowledge of sincere religion, which when it entereth beginneth to make us afraid of corruption even in the least things that haue no warrant from the truth of God. If you give any credit to the Prophet in this place, you may never speak of unity, without restraininge it to truth and verity. And therefore you may see howe your first witness reproveth your iudgment touching unity, without any mention of verity and truth. I trust you will give me good leave to deal by way of demand with you, so long as I haue no other meaning, then in this our disputation of unity, to set you and your witness at one. Tell me therfore I pray you at your convenient leisure, if this people of Israel to whom he saith he will give one hart& one way, were not the church of god( albeit there were great corruptions among them in the service of god) where the church was at that time? And if you say they were the Church, then answer me howe these two hang together, that the lord promiseth in the time to come, and after their return to give them one hart and one way, which is( as you say) ment of unity, whereas you are of opinion that there is no true Church, if there bee not already unity among them. And therefore haue not onely made it a mark, but the first mark of the church. I long to hear from you of some good agreement made between you and your witness.  
Your second testimony for unity is taken out of the Gospel after Saint John. It is the prayer of our saviour Christ unto his father for his elect. These are the words. Pater saencte serua eos per nomen tuum, 
John. 17.  quos dedisti mihi, vt sint vnum, prout& nos. Holy father save them by thy name, whom thou hast given unto me, that they may be one as we are. You shall spare me, albeit I receive not your expositione seing that our saviour christ hath opened his own meaning, for he himself doth more plainly declare this matter in this same chapter when he prayeth that this may bee granted unto all that shall by the Apostles doctrine be brought to believe in him: 
John. 17.  Vt omnes vnum sint sicut tu pater in me,& ego in te, vt& ipsi in nobis vnum sint: that all may he one as thou father in me and I in the, so they in us may bee one. he prayeth not simply for agreement, but with addition, that they may bee one and at agreement in God the father& in Christ,& remain one in them, which is performed when the truth of his word is truly embraced and followed, for then are we said to be in him, as appeareth in the xv. 
joan. 15.  of this gospel. Si manseritis in me,& verba mea, in vobis manserint:( saith our saviour Christ) declaring that this is to abide united unto him, when his word abideth in vs. Likewise in the second to the Colossians, after that he hath  told them that al the treasures of wisdom& knowledge are hide in Christ, and therefore willeth them, as they haue ●eceiued Christ Iesus, so they should ●alke in him: forthwith he warneth them ●o take heed that no man deceive them ●y philosophy, 
Colos. 2.  according to the tradi●ions of men,& not according unto Christ, ●eclaring that this is not to be in Christ, ●either to walk in him, when we walk after the traditions of men, and remain not ●nited unto him, and at one with him in his word. prove unto us then, that you are one in God the father,& in Christ, by being united unto the truth of their doctrine, and that you remain in them, by having their words remaining in you: and thē we will make good reckoning of such an agre●ment. But seeing the contrary is apparent, we affirm out of this place, that the prayer of our saviour Christ, is not verified in you, that you should abide one in them, because their words and doctrine abide not in you.  
Besides this you are to be put in remembrance, that albeit our saviour Christ prayed for unity, that it might, be granted unto his disciples to be one, yet that proveth not that without imperfection they did enjoy it, for he prayeth in like manner in the same Chapter for the faithful, that they might be delivered from evil, now who knoweth not, that his be greatly subject to evil, whether you understand it of outward or inward evils, spiritual or temporal, as wee call them, and yet notwithstanding that prayer was heard for them as well as this. I say therfore, that as the Church is void of evil, so is it of dissension and variance, and as it is troubled notwithstanding this prayer with evil and oftentimes giveth great offence by falling into the same: So is it in like manner with discord and dissension. These speeches therefore which bee absolute in themselves are by the iudgement of the Learned, to be limited according to that measure which is granted unto man to attain unto, and not absolutely to bee pressed as you do.  
You allege moreover for proof of your assertion, out of the acts of the Apostles that there was in the primitive 
acts. 4.  Church vnum Cor& vna anima, One heart and one mind. It is true that there was great agreement in that people, which was as it were the first fruits of the spirit of God, and of the Apostles doctrine and labours: and such an agreement as Churches planted after by the Apostles themselves had not the like, as it is apparent in the church of Corinth, and yet a true church, and so called and accounted of by the Apostle paul. There was such unity of affection among them, that they liberally employed their goods one upon an other, as necessity required, and albeit the unity of mind and affection which they had among themselves was very great, yet it was not so universal, as that it did admit no exception of any particulars, for we read immediately after of two Annanias and Sapphira: that were not so single hearted toward their bretheren as the rest, and therefore received punishment accordingly. But I pray you mark that it is said there Multitudinis credentium, erat cor vnum& anima vna: They were faithful and believers of the word of God, and not servants and slaves to the traditions of men, that had this verity among them. unity therefore is in this place( as before) restrained unto verity and truth. So that if you look for any help from hence you are to prove the truth of your doctrine, before you bring in the unity of your affections. But let this be granted, what haue you said for yourself? ye haue brought for proof one example, if you had brought many of these, a Logiciā would haue answered you, that examples prove nothing,& what exceptions may be taken against your one example? was there not murmuring& complaining immediately after, among this number, that are said there to be of one heart& mind, for that the Grecians their widows were not provided for, 
acts. 6.  and thereupon a new order taken for their better provision? and were not two of this number, whose heartes were said to be one, hunted out from among the rest, and made a Spectacle of the iustice of God against 
acts. 5.  dissimulation? moreover howe can an example how true soever at the beginning and for some little time, become a rule to bind all men for all times? Now the danger of division is greater as experience doth tell us in the continuance and increase of the Church, then at the first planting and building of the same, so that an example of unity in the Church long continued and increased, had been more forcible and fit to induce us, then this of the Church newly planted.  
The place alleged out of the romans exhorteth us to bear one with the infirmities of an other, 
Roma. 15.  to receive them are the weaker sort, not to disdain them, or cast them of in their weakness and infirmities: remembering well how Christ hath received us in our wants. If he speak of unity in doctrine and Sacramentes in this place as you say, his prayer for it, doth rather argue a want to be as yet in thē of the thing, then to import any present possession thereof. For wee are not wont to pray for the things we haue already, and you know your Assertion maintaineth that unity can never be sundered from the Church because it is a special note and badge thereof. The authority out of the Epistle to the Corinthes is directly against your Assertion, 
1. Corinth. 1.  for there were( as he affirmeth in that chapter) sects and schisms amongst them, one holding of paul, another of Apollo, which he prayeth may be stayed& no more hard of amongst thē. There being then sects and schisms amongst thē, and yet notwithstanding he giving them the name and title of the Church, as appeareth in the beginning of that Chapter: proveth that every division by and by taketh not away the name of the Church from those that are so divided. To bee brief, that place which infereth a division to haue been in a Church, it notwithstanding remaining still a church: is but a weak ground to prove that unity is an unfallible note and mark of the Church.  
You conclude with Augustine in his epistle one hundreth sixty six. For you haue mistaken the number, it is not as you quoat it. There are not many words alleged out of him, and yet they are not all truly alleged, howbeit you haue most of all swerved from his meaning, I will therefore set you down his words both before and after. 
August. Epist. 166.  His atque aliis similitudinibus Dominus juramentum svorum tollerantiam confirmavit, ne dum se boni putant malorum permixtione culpari, per humanas& temerarias dissensiones aut paruulos perdant, aut paruuli pereant, quod vsque adeo coelestis magister cauendum praemonuit, vt etiam de praepositis malis plebem securam faceret, ne propter illos doctrinae salutaris cathedra desereretur, in qua coguntur etiam mali bona dicere, neque enim sua sunt quae, dicunt, said Dei, qui in Cathedra unitatis doctrinam posuit veritatis, de praepositis suis mala facientibus,& dei dona dicentibus ait: quae dicunt, facite: quae autem faciunt facere nolite. Augustine in this Epistle defendeth the church against the Donatistes who charged it to be defiled with the wickedness of some evil men, with whom it did communicate, and that in communicating with those evil men in the Sacramentes, they were made partakers of their sins. He useth certain similitudes taken out of the Scripture, to confirm a toleration of evil manners, when without danger they cannot be reformed, showing the danger of rash division, how strong it is to overthrow the weak, and that the Lord hath forewarned us to take heed of this rash dividing of ourselves from the Church, because of the evil life of some: in that he warranteth the people against the evil manners of their guides and Teacher●, in as much as he commandeth then to hear their doctrine, but not to follow their example of life and conversation. For evil men saith he are compelled by the working of God to speak good things, neither are they their own, but the matters of God which they do utter, who hath placed the doctrine of truth even in that chair, where there is unity with evil manners. Therfore the truth himself of guides doing evil, but saying that which God hath given thē, saith, do as they say, but do not as they do. This is the unity that Aug. speaketh of, which is to be restrained to the matter he hath in hand, to wit, that the evil life of some in the church, is no sufficient cause to make a division from that church. For if it had, the lord would not haue moved us to hear those, and to do as they say. And yet which is more, he doth forewarn us to beware of diuidinge ourself rashly from such, in that he compelleth oftentimes men of evil life, to deliver good and sound doctrine unto his people, and hath got a place for his truth out of that chair, where they do sit who are at unity with evil manners. If we were departed from your church, onely because of your evil life, finding no fault with your doctrine, you might reply with Augustine,& say unto us: In cathedra unitatis posuit doctrinam veritatis: he hath placed true doctrine in their mouths, who in their life are at unity with evil conversation. But your doctrine is at deadly debate with the truth of God his word, and therefore wee haue a Christian quarrel against you, not for life onely, but especially for evil Doctrine, and the Lord I doubt not shall in his time reuenge us of you, by killing the error which is within you. I conclude therfore against you by your own testimonies, that unity simply as you haue set it down is no note of the church, but unity wit● addition[ of truth and Verity.] I conclude also against you by your own witness, tha● there is no such unity required in doctrine, as to exclude from the church all thos● that are at any kind of variety, touching any point of Doctrine within themselves We say of variety in that doctrine which toucheth not the foundation of Religion, yea albeit the article itself shall touch th● foundation, when yet notwithstanding th● controversy is not about the hart and principal part thereof: 
August. epist. 76.  as Augustine saith o● the diversity of observations in the church● Sit ergo vna Fides vniuersae, quae vbique dilatatur Ecclesiae, tanquam intus in membris, etiam si ipsa fidei unitas, quibusdam diversis obseruationibus celebratur, quibus nullo modo quod in fide verum est impeditur: omnis enim pulchritudo Filiae Regis intrinsecus: illae autem obseruationes quae variè celebrantur, in eius vest intelliguntur, vnde illi dicitur in fimbrijs aurets circumamicta varietate. Al the beauty of the king his daughter which signifieth the church, is as August. saith inward, but her outward garments are of ●iuers colours, to declare that variety whether in doctrine or ceremonies, so it bee in ●he garment, not piercing the hart& bowels of Religion, can not take away the beauty of the church which is altogether inward. As for you that will acknowledge no church where there is any variety in doctrine, I can prove unto you, not onely that your church hath had diversity& dissension in doctrine, but also that you haue been at contention about such points of doctrine, as shake the very pillars& grounds of Religion. wherein lest you should think that I would allege the authority of some that were partial in my behalf, 
Matth. Paris. fo●. 824.  I am contented to be tried by matthew Paris, a monk of S. Albons. who in the chronicle that he writeth doth declare, that in the year of our Lord, 1243. which was the xxvii. year of the reign of Henry the third, then King of this realm of England, there was great controversy between the friars and the university of Paris, because that the friers taught in pulpittes,& maintained in public lectures, these opinions following.  
That the divine essence was not th● same altogether in the holy Ghost, tha● it was in the father,& in the son: whic● plainly vphouldeth an inequality o● persons contrary to the Christian faith●  
That the holy Ghost, as he is love, proceedeth from the father only,& not als● from the son: whereas the Christian belief holdeth that he procedet● from them both.  
That neither the soul nor the body shalbe after the resurrection in that heaven where the Angels are, but in another above the firmament.  
That the evil Angel in his first creation was evil and never good: which opinion chargeth the Lord of necessity to be the Author of evil.  
That an Angel in one instant may be in diverse places, and every where if he will: which opinion runneth the Angels unto that which is only proper to God.  
That Adam had never such a state of innocency, as that he might haue stood and not haue fallen from the obedience of God. which opinion doth overthrow the Iustice of God.  
That he that hath more help of nature, ●hall of necessity haue more grace and greater glory. This opinion utterly ouer●hroweth all the doctrine of the free mercies in Christ, of mortification, and regeneration. These opinions being once broached and publicly maintained in the schools, the Doctors of Paris( as there was great cause why) did stoutly resist and stand against them, setting down their iudgement unto every article severally in this form of words. Hunc errorem prohibemus,& assertores eius& defensores excommunicamus. We forbid this error,& the maintainers and defenders thereof we do excommunicate. You can never prove that the greatest controversy that ever was or is at this day amongst us, was so material and did so nearly touch the foundation of religion as doth the least of these. And therefore when you writ again, let us not I pray you hear of any exclamation against the division that is amongst us as you say touching Doctrine: unless you will set down some particulars, and let the world see that you deal plainly& simply, and are able to prove indeed tha● which in general terms you would seem● to carry away. I am well assured that ther● was never any such dangerous opinions professed in our schools; or contended for among the learned that professed the Gospel at any time, whereof in degree of error i● might truly be said that they were matches& equal unto these. And if you continue never so long in seeking monuments& records, yet shall you not find the like among vs.   

Assertion.  
For the second the Prophet saith, Domum tuam decet sanctitudo Domine in longitudinem dierum. 
Psal. 92.1. corinth. 3. Psalm 118. Matth. 19.  Templum Dei sanctum est, quod estis vos( inquit Christus.) Media nocte surgebam ad confitendum tibi( inquit Propheta.) Some saith Christ geld themselves for the kingdom of heaven that is to say, by fasting, by prayer,& other afflictions. Castigo corpus meum inquit Paulus, 
1. corinth. 9.  & in seruitatē redigo, &c. To judith after her notable& victorious act to her commendation it was said. 
judith. 15.  Confortatum est cor tuum eo quod castitatem amaueris. Bona est oratio inquit Tobias cum ieiunto& eleemosina, 
Tobi. 12.  ●his kind of devils, saith Ch●ist, meaning ●as the Doctors say, 
Matth. 17. ) the spirits of forni●ation are not cast out but by fasting& ●rayer. 
Matth. 5.  Sic luceat lux vestra coram homi●ibus, vt videant opera vestra bona, inquit Christus, 
Matth. 7. Lucae 6.  ex fructibus eorum cognoscetis eos ●nquit Christus. Mutuum date nihil, ind ●perantes inquit idem Christus. Sancta& ●alubris est cogitatio pro defunctis exorare vt a poenis soluantur dicit Scriptura. 
2. Machab. 12.  The which though the Iewes did never receive no more than they did the Gospel of John, yet the church hath and doth receive both for canonical scriptures. Vt patet in the third general council of Charthage, 
Consil. in svorum decret cap. 47. August. lib 18. de civitate Dei cap. 26. Canon. cap. 84.  where Saint Augustine was present. Qui dicit quod Machabaeorum libros non judaei said Ecclesia pro Canonicis habet. Which also is affirmed in the Canons of the Apostles. The which church is to be preferred before the Iewes synagogue, 
Psalm. 86. Agge. 2.  to whom Christ hath promised the continual assistance of his holy spirit, Propheta teste dicente diligit Dominus portas zion supper omnia tabernacula jacob. Magna erit gloria domus istius nouissimae, plusquam primae: dicit dominus. In the primitive church they used prayer for the souls departed, which was the tradition of the Apostles, 
Dionys. cap. 7. de coelest. high. Chry. in Epist. ad Philippens. Homil. 3  as witnesseth Dionysius Areopagita, S. Paul his scholar,& so witnesseth also S. Chrysostome. Non frustra ab apostles sancitum est, vt in celebratione venerandorum mysteriorum memoria fiat eorum, qui hinc decesserunt: nouerunt illis hinc multum emolumenti fieri multum utilitatis. Habet inquit August. ecclesiastica disciplina, 
August. Homi. 17. de verb. Apostoli.  quod fideles nouerunt cum Martyres eo loco recitantur ad altar dei, vt non pro ipsis oretur, pro caeteris autem commemoratis defunctis oretur. S. August. praying for his mothers soul Monica saith in his prayers made to God thus, 
red the whole chapter, and ye shall find the matter more at large.  as it appeareth in the eleventh chapter of his nienth book of his confessions, declaring how she did not desire to be costly butted. These were not the things( saith he) that shee any thing required us, but only desired us to haue her in remenbrance at thine Alter, to the which she had been accustomend no day missing to do service, from which shee well knew that holy sacrifice to be dispensed, by which the obligation that made against us was canceled, &c. In the primitive church they builded Churches, they erected altars, and offered sacrifices thereupon, which was a sure token and argument of the true faith of Christ: 
Chrysost. contra gentes. Deus sit homo.  as Chrysost. writeth. now such as in words and acts inueygh against& contemn the said good works both profitable for the quick and the dead, seem to me to bee no more members of the primitive Church, than they bee of our catholic church, at this day. And I pray ye judge which are Christ his folk by his own rule abovesaid, that is to say, by their fruits, and consider by the monuments of our forefathers left behind them, 
Math. 7.  whether they were Illa arbour bona, which brought forth good fruit.   

answer.  
ECclesia est sancta. Another note to discern the Church by, is holiness: for the Church is the temple of God,& therefore not profane, but holy, as it is written. 
1. Pet. cap. 1.  Be ye holy for I am holy. This sanctification and holinesse wee haue not by nature, but by grace. The paths of godliness and true holiness, are descried by the word of God, our natural wit iudgeth not aright thereof. The word of God as it doth discover the right way and declare what works be acceptable to GOD, so it doth by exhortation quicken and stir us up thereunto, and therefore our Saui-Christ in the prayer that he made to his father for the Church, 
John. 17.  hath these words: Sanctifica eos veritate tua sermo tuus veritas est. sanctify them with thy truth, thy word is truth. 
Ephes. 4.  And in the Epistle to the Ephesians this word Truth is joined with righteousness and holiness, as a mark to distinguish between true and counterfeit works. His words are these Induite nouum hominem, qui secundum deum creatus est in iustitia& sanctitate veritatis. Put on the new man which is created after God in righteousness& holiness of truth, or in righteousness and true holiness. And in the next Chapter the Apostle likewise coupleth the truth with goodness& righteousness. Vt filii lucis incedite, nam fructus, 
John. 15.  spiritus situs est in omni bonitate, et iustitia,& veritate, probantes quid sit acceptum domino. Our saviour Christ saith, iam vos puri estis propter sermonem quem loquutus sum vobis. Now you are holy by reason of the word that I haue spoken unto you. The three must be good before the fruit be good: we must be sanctified with the truth before we can bring forth fruits of true samctification and holinesse. As for your church she hideth the word of truth, the holy scriptures, from the people in an unknown tongue, and maintaineth works doene of a good intent, which the Scripture condemneth, 
Num●ri. 15.  when they haue no warrant from the word. Your fruits therfore may seem faire to the eye, but to the cast& trial they can not be good, because you are not good trees yourselves: good trees you are not, because you want the sap of the truth& word of God and are fed with inventions and traditions of men, and your own good intents and deuotions. I know you look that I should prove this out of the Fathers, to wit, that we must haue in us the good seed of the word, before wee can bring forth good works acceptable to God, and that it is required that we ourselves should be good, before we bring forth good fruit. Wherefore I am to require you, to consider what Chrysostome writeth of this matter. 
Chrysost. De fide& lege naturae& sancto spirit.  Offendes equidem multos, qui quamuis sermonem veritatis non acceperint,& foris sint, operibus tamen pietatis, vt apparet, sunt conspicui. invenies viros misericordes, compatientes, justitiae vacantes: said nullos facientes fructus operum, quia nescierint opus veritatis. Thou shalt find many, who although they haue not received the word of truth, but are without, yet notwithstanding are, as it appeareth, famous for their good works: thou shalt find men merciful, full of compassion, given to upright dealing, but for al that, bringing forth no fruits, but leaves of works, because they bee ignorant of the work of truth. unto him agreeth jerome. his words are these. 
Hieron. in Agg●. capi. 2.  Quia haec mandata sunt nobis, vt ponamus corda nostra in vus nostris, ascendamus in montem rationabilem:& ad singula problemata congrua de testimoniis Scripturarum ligna quaerentes, praecédamus ea,& aedificemus domum sapientiae in nobis: postquam enim haec fuerit extructa, finis aedificationis eius, erit, vt dominus glorificetur in nobis. Because these things are given us in commandment, that wee should set our heartes vpon our ways, let us go up unto the mountain of wisdom, and for every doubt seeking fit wood out of the testimonies of the Scriptures: let us cut it down, and build a house of wisdom within us, for after that shall once bee built, the end of that building shalbe, that the lord may be glorified in vs. And vpon the second chapter he speaketh yet more plainly vpon this matter. Possumus dicere frustra aliquos munera offer Deo, 
Hieron. in Agge, cap. 2.  & eleemosynis atque oblationibus putare Deum posse placari: cum ipsi non extruxerint in se templum spiritui sancto, tunc enim {pro}sunt eleemosynae& munera quae offeruntur in altari, cum seipsum quis aedificauerit templum dei et post aedificationem templi, dona obtulerit in altari. We may say that these men do offer gifts in vain to God, and think that God will be pacified with alms and offerings, when they haue not built in themselves a Temple for the holy Ghost. For then are alms acceptable& gifts which are offered vpon the altar, when a man hath first built himself the temple of God,& after the building of the Temple, shall offer gifts vpon the altar. This word of God which is the wood appointed for the building of the Temple of God, you are nothing acquainted withal, you are not often conversant in the profitable reading and hearing thereof, and therefore no marvel if neither your faith be grounded vpon the promises in the word, nor your direction for good works be taken out of the Lawe of God, but follow custom and your own devotion, to guide you unto that which you trust vpon, and to those works which you were wont to do. As before you learned out of the scriptures: so now you perceive by the fathers that no man can offer an acceptable gift unto God, before there be a temple of God, and the matter that maketh us the temple of God, is not found in our own devotion, but only to be had in the written word of God. Order therfore would that before you had  told us of the sacrifices& offerings to be made, you had admonished us of the building of that Temple, where the sacrifice must be offered if it bee acceptable unto God. You should haue  told us that we ●ut of the comforts and promises of the word, were first to be made living unto God, and then to haue required of us good works the testimonies of this life. I see no difference between this your teaching of works& theirs who are ethnics& heathen men, for they haue required and practised many good works, before they themselves through faith in the word were made good and acceptable unto God. learn therfore if you will not of the scriptures, yet of the fathers, to be come a Temple made of that wood which he hath appointed, before you make any great account of the good deeds& oblations with you do offer unto him. Now let us see your fruits and go●● works. The fruits of sanctification and holiness you make chastity of life, alms deeds, fastings, building of Churches, universities, colleges, hospitals, lending of money for charity and not for usury, and prayer for the deade. I haue with some diligence perused the xi. 
Hebr. 11.  chapter of the Epistle to the hebrews, where I see the good works and fruits of the best men, for the which they haue got them an everlasting remenbrance by the testimony of the spirit of God, and are set forth as patterns and examples of true obedience. I find there no mention of many of these which you do set forth as the principal works, but great commendation of others which you haue not so much as once name. I do find there great commendation of one Abraham the father of the faithful, a great rich man, not for building of Churches, hospitals, or colleges, but for leaving his friends, and country, going out from among them, at the commandment of the lord, not knowing where to become. Wee are able to show you many such g●od works among vs. 
Roma. 15.  For diuers in this land of great wealth, haue in the late dayes of queen Mary for their conscience sake, in iustifing the cause of his Gospel, 
1. corinth. 1.  and therfore at his commandement, left friends, lands, goods, and country, not knowing where to become. I do red there of one Moses, a mild and merciful man by the testimony of the holy Ghost, commended not for lending of money without taking interest, or building of hospitals for poor and impotent men, neither yet for merciful remembrance( as ye do count it) of the dead in his prayers: but for that he refused to be called the son of pharaoh his daughter, 
August. epis. 1●5  and choose rather to suffer adversity with the people of god, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season. And if this bee a good work wee can show you many of these. Peruse that chapter, consider the men there mentioned, you shall find that they were of the best. 
Iere. 32. vers. 32.  Examine the fruits of their faith, their good deeds,& compare thē with the most of these that you haue recited,& do require. Note the variety. mark howe many of yours ye can find registered there, that is a true calendar of Christian works, they are no counterfeits, they can not but keep weight, for they are currant by the lawe of God.  
Blame me not if I do require your careful consideration hereof, for the diversity of these Spirits may not lightly be let pass. The one sauereth of the earth so doth not the other. For if a worldly man that was never brought up in the school of Christ, bee asked his iudgement between the good deed of that man who doth build a college, and of another who leaveth his country with Abraham at the commandement of God: he will prefer that of building a college far above the other, as being a visible monument that continueth for ever, commodious to many: full of glory in the iudgement almost of every man: whereas the memory of tother passeth away with the deed done, commodious( as commodity is measured in worldly respects) unto none, subject unto the mislikinge of an infinite number. And as concerning all those deeds that you do reckon up in form and manner as you do them, wicked men haue practised thē all,& men that never heard of the Gospel would if comparison were made, prefer them before these which are registered by the holy Ghost, as the best deeds of the best men. Yours would weigh more with worldly minded men. And therefore we may safely say that they are of th' earth& not from above, for the world loveth and liketh her own. My meaning is not to speak against or to mislike in any respect, building of colleges Hospitals& churches, when they proceed of a hart purified by faith,& therfore seeking the glory of god& not his own therein,& be ordained for the aduauncinge of God his word& true worship, not to the maintenance of Idolatry and superstition. Thus much generally for works, to let you see what is the sap that maketh the three good,& what be the fruits that are left in the register of the holy Ghost, as the best works of the best men. Now let us come particularly unto the several good deeds with you set down. First for prayer. Wee use and practise it as the special weapon of a Christian soldier, we offer it unto God as a special part of his glory, which he will not communicate with any other: wee teach men to pray in spirit and truth: not in an unknown tongue without any understanding of the truth, and therfore without any affection of spirit unto that truth. The scripture that commendeth fasting and alloweth it, neither knoweth nor approveth your manner of fasting. Compare your fasting with that which we do red of Ioel. cap. 2. jonas cap. 3. Nehemias. 9. the second of the Chronicles. cap. 20. You shal find no more resemblance between thē, than is between white& black. In these fastings there were special occasions, thereof and special prayers conceived& made thereupon for their release: there was no abstinence from one kind of meate,& liberty for another, but abstinence from all meats for that time. With you special occasion doth not appoint the time: but your set dayes and times, bring on all the occasion that you haue. Their prayers were peculiar according to the occasion, you haue no special and peculiar prayers, as you haue not any peculiar occasion:  
With you, there is not abstinence from al ●inde of meat for that time, but change of ●ne kind of meat for another, and that of ●entimes no less delicate thē the other. So that you may well bee numbered with those men against whom jerome speaketh Ad Nepotianum. Quid prodest oleo non vesci, 
Hieron ad Nepotianum.  & molestias quasdam difficultatésque ciborum quaerere, Caricas, piper, nuces, palmarum fructus, similam, mell, pistacia? tota hortorum cultura vexatur, vt cibario non vescamur pane,& dum delitias sectamur è regno coelorum retrahimur. Audio praeterea quosdā contra rerum hominúmque naturam, aquam non bibere, nec vesci pane, said sorbitiunculas delicatas,& contrita olera, betarúmque succum, non calice sorbere said concha. Proh pudor, non erubescimus istiusmodi ineptijs, nec taedet superstitionis? insuper etiam famam abstínentiae in delitiis quaerimus? What availeth it not to feed of oil, and to seek for the driest and hardest meats, as dry figs, pepper, nuts, dates, manchets, hony, and those nuts, which the Apothecaries do much use, al the garden is troubled, that wee might not eat common meat,& while we follow after dainties we are drawn from the kingdom of god. I do hear moreover that there are certain men, which contrary to the nature of men, neither drink water nor eat bread, but sup delicate brothes, and suppinges, pothearbes brayed,& the juice of beets not out of a cup, but out of a shell. fie for shane do ye not blushy at this folly? are you not ashamed of superstition. moreover we do seek the commendation of abstinencye in such dainties. You se here howe ancient your kind of fasting is, and what jeroms iudgement is of such fasts, where ordinary meats are changed with delicate dainties. If he were living to behold your common kind of fasting, he would surely renew his old complaint against the superstitious fasts of his time& say, Proh pudor, non erubescitis istiusmodi ineptijs, nec taedet superstitionis, insuper etiam famam abstinentiae in delitijs quaeritis? We haue not onely to charge your fasts as jerom did the superstitious abstinence of his time: but also as the Prophet doth the profane fasting of that time that he lived in. 
Esay. 58.  Ecce in die jeiunij vestri invenitur voluntas vestra. behold in the day of ●our fast you are found to do your own will. As their fasting was not regarded of the Lord, because their own will was satisfied and not the lords, touching their dealing with their poor brethren: so yours is abominable, because in your service done not unto man, but with us more unto God, you are found stiffly to uphold your own will and devotion, not yeldinge unto his written word and commandment. And therefore in a greater degree of offence, rejecting your fasts as did the Prophet theirs, wee may justly say: Ecce in jeiunijs vestris invenitur voluntas vestra. For all your fasting you are still found vpholdinge your own will against the Lord and his word. Those afflictions that you speak so much of, whereby you pretend to bring the body in subiection to the Spirit, if they were greater then they are with some of you, yet not withstanding you haue them in common with Idolaters of all times.  
For this is a note of thē, as witnesseth the Apostle in the second chapter of his Epistle to the Colossians, 
Colos. 2.  that they make a show of wisdom and Religion in humbleness of mind, and in not sparing their bodies: which jerome vpon this place confirmeth in these words. Non vos seducat Philosophia ad humanam doctrinam, 
Hieron. in Col. cap. 2.  quae sapientiae& abstinentiae specie subornatur, in qua, tam vana est corporis afflictio, tam stulta meditationis intentio, cui●s bonum ad capiendas& infirmandas hominum mentes, quasi quidam laqueus, Diabolo aucupante, protenditur, quò facilius malum suum sequens inducat. Let not philosophy seduce you unto mans Doctrine, which is set forth with the show of wisdom and abstinence, in the which the afflicting of the body is so vain, and the earnest intent of meditation is so foolish, the goodness whereof is hung before by the devill, as a snare to take the mindes of men and to weaken them, that thereby the more easily he may bring in the poison of doctrine that cometh after. This matter he toucheth also in his exposition vpon the Prophet Aggeus in these words. Et supper omnem laborem manuum, 
Hieron. in Agge. cap. 1.  & jejunia eorum,& obseruationes varias,& humi dormitiones, qui tribus quadragessimis per ●num ieiunantes,& xerofagis humiliantes animam suam,& vel maximè de Taciani radice crescentes: supper huiuscemodi laboribus audiunt, tanta passi estis sine causa. Vpon the labour of their hands, vpon their fastings, and diverse observations, vpon their sleepinges vpon the ground, which fast three Lentes every year, and bring low themselves with eating of dry meats, and especially those which spring of the roote of Tatianus: they hear of such labours: ye haue suffered so great things in vain. You may see by the testimony of Hierom, that the afflicting of the body, is not always the best mark of the Church of God and true religion. That which before was spoken generally may well be renewed here, to wit, that not onely none of these afflictions and humblinges of the body, but also no other thing how good soever of and in itself, can please the Lord, before by faith in his word we be made his Temples. To which end jerome, in an other place doth yet speak more fully and plainly. 
Hieron. in Agge. cap. 2.  His words are these: Omne quod fecerint, quod mihi obtulerint, vel vota pro salute, vel pacifica, vel pro peccato, vel pro delicto, vel in holocaustum: siue eleemosynas, siue jejunia, siue victus continentiam,& Corporis castitatem, contaminata erunt in conspectu meo. Quamuis enim sancta videantur specie su; quae offeruntur a talibus, tamen quia tacta sunt ab eo qui pollutus in anima est, omnia polluentur. As for the bringing of his body into subiection, which the Apostle speaketh of,& chastising of it, I doubt not but those who truly profess the Gospel haue it, abstaining not onely from unlawful commodities& pleasures, but also from those that be lawful, when the enjoying therof were likely to hinder the course of the Gospel, which was his meaning to declare, as any man may perceive, who with indifferent iudgment will peruse that chapter. To conclude this controversy of fasting, you contending to bind it unto certain daies& certain meats,& we denying the same: let Tertullian, a man near unto Christ his time be judge herein. 
Tertul de jeiunio aduersus Psychicos.  These are his words Certè in evangelio illos dies ieiuniis determinatos putant, in quibus ablatus est sponsus,& hos esse iam solos legitimos ieiuniorum christianorum abolitis legalibus& propheticis vetustatibus. ubi volunt enim agnoscunt quid sapiat: lex& prophetae usque ad unwelcome. Itaque de caetero indifferenter i●iunandum ex arbitrio, non ex imperio novae disciplinae, pro temporibus& causis vniuscuiusque: sic& Apostolos obseruasse, nullum aliud imponentes jugum certorum& in commune omnibus obcundorum ieiuniorum. He affirmeth that in the tune of the Gospel those dayes are appointed for fasting, in which the bridegroom is taken away, meaning thereby such times as bring special occasion with them to admonish and warn us for the humbling of ourselves before the lord,& that the Apostles did thus observe it: laying no yoke of certain& determined fasts vpon men, but left it to be done according as the cause of every one should require. You see how plainly he speaketh against the restraining of it to certain daies& time:& as plain& as flat is his speech immediately after against the restraining of us in it to certain meats, Xerophagias vero nouum affectati officii nomen,& proximum ethnicae superstitioni, quails ●astimoniae Apim, Isidem,& magnam matrem, certorum eduliorum exceptione purificant, cum fides libera in Christo, ne Iudaicae quidem legi abstinentiam quorundam ciborum debeat, semel in totum macellum ab Apostolo admissa detestatore eorum, qui sicut nubere prohibeant, ita iubeant cibis abstinere a deo conditis,& ideo nos esse iam tum prenotatos in nouissi●is temporibus abscedentes a fide, intendentes spiritibus mundi seductoribus, doctrinis mendacilo quorum inustam habentes conscientiam. He affirmeth that the eating of certain dry meats is a new name of a strange and affencted office, nere unto the superstition of the heathen, and that all meats are set at liberty unto us, and that we are let in unto the shambles without any restraint, and that by the Apostle himself, who( as he saieth there) doth detest thē that forbid to mary,& command to abstain from meats created of God. As before you hear his iudgement for restraining of fasting unto certain days: so now you hear it touching the restraint of certain meats in fasting. It appeareth that although he were near unto the Apostles time, yet even then this superstition begoon, which afterward so greatly prevailed.  
The good work that you spend most travell vpon, is prayer for the dead, and that work you would establish by Scripture, and therefore when you haue alleged the place out of the second book of the maccabees, you add these words [ Dicit scriptura:] and proceed to prove that book of the maccabees to be canonical scripture, by the testimony of Augustine. You quoate in the margin [ August. De civitate dei. lib, 18. ca. 26. 
Aug de civi. dei. lib. 18. cap. 36. ] In that Chapter there is no such matter. I think you mean the thirty six Chapter of that book, there are the same words that you do allege, but I haue to charge you of not setting down the whole sentence, but supressing of that which openeth the whole matter, you shal give me leave therfore to set down the whole sentence as it lieth. His words are these: Ab hoc tempore apud judaeos restituto templo, non reges said principes fuerunt usque ad Aristobulum, quorum supputatio temporum, non in scriptures sanctis quae canonicae appellantur, said in aliis invenitur, in quibus sunt& Machabaeorum libri: quos non judaei, said ecclesia pro canonicis habet, propter quorundam Martyrum passions vehementes atque mirabiles. Augustine as you see, affirmeth this supputation of time not to be found in the holy Scriptures which are called canonical, but in other books, among the which are the books of the maccabees: He declareth plainly that the books of the maccabees are others and diverse from the books of the holy Scriptures which are called canonical: Non in scriptures sanctis, quae appellantur canonicae, said in aliis, in quibus sunt& Machabaeorum libri: he doth not say, in quibus error opinionis judaei existimant esse Machabaeorum libros: But these are his words, In quibus sunt& Machabaeorum libri. he doth not say that they are falsely thought by the Iewes to be among other books, which are not called caconical, but expressly, that they are among books that be not called canonical. You lay fast hold vpon this other half of the sentence: Quos non judaei, said ecclesia pro canonicis habet: If you will haue none of that that goeth before, I pray you let us haue that, that followeth immediately: Propter quorundam martyrum passions. The church reckoneth of the books of the maccabees, as if they were caconical, because of the suffering of certain martyres. If they were altogether and simply canonical, what meaneth he to add any particular respect, as this is, [ Propter passions martyrum,] for the suffering of martyrs, why they should be accounted caconical. If his meaning be in his latter part, to heal whatsoever was wounded by him in the former, why is not his plaster as large as the wound? In the former part of the sentence without any condition or respect, he had affirmed that the books of the maccabees were not among the holy scriptures, which are called caconical, now when he should as you think heal this long and large wound, he cometh with a little plaster and telleth us of one cause in respect whereof these books were reputed of the church as if they were canonical. And that it is his manner not to speak of those books with general allowance and approbation as he doth of canonical scriptures, but with condition, cautions, and particular allowance for some one special cause, with he never doth of the canonical Scripture: It appeareth in his second book against the second Epistle of Gaudentius cap. 23. Where disputing against the Donatistes, who alleged the fact of Razis, for the murdering of themselves, he hath these words: Et hanc quidem scripturam, quae appellatur Machabeorum non habent judaei sicut legem, Prophetas,& Psalmos, quibus dominus testimonium perhibuit tanquam testibus suis dicens: oportet omnia impleri, quae scripta sunt in lege,& prophetis,& psalmis de me: said recepta est ab ecclesia non inutiliter, si sobriè legatur vel audiatur, maximè propter illos Machabeos qui pro dei lege sicut veri martyres a persequutoribus tam indigna atque horrenda perpessi sunt. Consider well with what cautions this book is compassed about by Augustine, and how spare his allowance is unto it, in respect of the canonical Scripture.  
It is received of the church, saith August. not unprofitably, if it bee read soberly, especially for those maccabees, that suffered so many things of the persecutors for the lawe of God, that the Christians( saith he) may learn from hence that the afflictions of this time are not worthy of that glory which shalbe revealed. Out of this Epistle of Augustine, we may learn an answer for that place alleged by you of Iudas Machabeus his fart. The Donatistes( as appeareth in that epistle) alleged Razis his killing of himself,( wc is commended in the 14. chapter of the 2. book of maccabees,) as an example to approve the murtheringe of themselves: even as you do the fact of Iudas Machabeus for prayer for the dead. His answer is this. Non debemus quicquid in scriptures etiam Dei testimonio laudatos homines fecisse legerimus consentiendo approbare: said considerando discernere, adhibentes judicium non nostrae auctoritatis said Scripturarum sanctarum atque divinarum. You may see that he would not haue us build vpon private examples& facts, albeit the men that haue done them were good& commended by God himself, but to discern of them by the authority of the scriptures. This example therefore of Iudas Machabaeus touching the dead, may not by the authority of Augustine forthwith be yielded unto because it was his doing, except being discerned by the Scripture, it bee found to receive confirmation from thence. For private examples can make no general rules of doctrine. Augustine his iudgement for the authority of these books you greatly stand vpon:& therefore his iudgement of private examples and facts I hope you will not mislike. Neither haue wee onely his doctrine to led us not simply to approve this or any like fact, before it bee examined by the holy Scriptures: but his practise also in this same chapter disallowing the fact of Razis, which is commended by the Author of those books, and crossing the several things given out there as matter to his great commendation.  
Wee are therfore no bolder with this Author in this our attempt, then Augustin himself is with him, in another private fact commended not a little by the same man.  
peradventure you desire to know what that diversity is which he maketh between the church of God now, and the Iewes, as concerning these books.  
This it is, that the Iewes never closed those books with the canonical under one prayer of clapses as the church doth now reading them together with tother, And yet they carry with them even now their note of difference and imperfection, that wee may not take their authority sufficient to confirm any Doctrine, and that by the iudgement& practise of the church, according as jerom testifieth in his preface vpon the proverbs of Solomon: his words are these: Sicut judith& Tobiae& Machabaeorum libros legit quidem ecclesia, said eos inter canonicas scripturas non recipit: Sic& haec dvo volumina legate ad aedificationem plebis, non ad authoritatem Ecclesiasticorum dogmatum confirmandam. As the church readeth the books of judith, Tobias, and the maccabees, but receiveth them not for canonical scriptures: so it may red these two books( meaning the book of Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus) for the edifyinge of the people, but not for to get authority and confirmation to any ecclesiastical opinion. You hear jerome say that the church doth not receive the books of the maccabees as canonical scripture, that they are not of authority to confirm any thing in controversy, here is not ( judaei non recipiunt) said Ecclesia non recipit. If these words. Diligit Dominus portas zion supper omnia tabernacula jacob, import this meaning( as you think they do) that the Lord hath opened more of his truth touching the authority of those books,& so of prayer for the dead, unto his church since Christ, then he did before unto the Iewes, because he loved zion more than jacob: why do you fetch your authority of praying for the dead out of the tabernacles of jacob, and not out of the gates of zion, out of the old Testament, and not out of the new? You can not find prayer for the dead in all zion where the love of the lord is so abundantly to be seen, you are glad to seek into the tabernacles of jacob, and finding no succour there neither, at last you light vpon a poor tent, which bewrayeth itself not to be of the same building with Iacobs tabernacles. For the Author of those books craveth pardon if he haue swerved in any thing, which the holy Ghost is never found to haue done. It is far from that spirit of all truth, to fear falling into error in any of his doings, so it is also from him that is god almighty in power equal with the father, to say, If I haue spoken slenderly& barely, it is that I could: as if any thing were impossible unto God. I need not to labour greatly for the discredit of your authorities, for they are at such variance with me in themselves, that one doth overthrow another. For your first authority saith, that prayer for the dead is delivered in writing from the holy Ghost: Your other authorities that follow they say it is not so, but that it is only delivered us by word of mouth and practise from the Apostles: for so do you afterward define of tradition, opposing it unto the written word as another member. And therefore I pray you consider howe these do depend one of another, that in your first authority you should say: [ Dicit scriptura,] alleging the maccabees, and afterward say: [ Dicit traditio.] For Chrysostome& Augustine whom you bring in afterward, say that it is a tradition of the Apostles:& therfore either your Scripture is no Scripture, or else their tradition is no tradition. You must remember what Irenaeus saith in the first chapter of his third book. Non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognouimus, quàm per eos per quos evangelium pervenit ad nos, quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt, postea vero per Dei voluntatem in scriptures nobis tradiderunt, fundamentum& columnan Fidei nostrae futurum. Wee know not our salvation by any other then these, by whom the Gospel hath come unto us, which then they preached, and afterward by the will of God left it in writing to bee the pillar and foundation of our faith. That which the Apostles by the will of God left us in writing, must bee the ground of our faith. And therefore I am to require you to begin there, and then to declare and prove, howe faithfully you haue succeeded them in that doctrine which they taught. Wee find not this Doctrine in that Scripture which the Apostles left written unto us, to bee( as Irenaeus faith) the pillar and ground work of our faith: and therfore wee can not find you to haue succeeded them in this Doctrine: unless you can prove that they had this doctrine. For to succeed a man in any thing, necessary infereth, that the same man must haue had that thing before. If you would haue proved your Doctrine of good works to haue been Apostolical, you should haue proved that the Apostles taught the same works in the same manner that you do. I dare therefore boldly say, and shalbee ready at all times to prove, that you are not the Apostles successors in your doctrine of sanctification. And as you haue not been faithful unto the Apostles, to succeed them truly in their Doctrine, no more haue you been unto others that came after them, who albeit they swerved some thing from the purity of the Apostles, yet were they far of from such great corruption as you of late time haue embraced. For proof hereof let us consider what that memorial of the dead was, which Dionysius Areopagita reporteth to bee the tradition of the Apostles. I will not now dispute whether he were paul his scholar or no, neither yet whether those Canons with you speak of, were the Apostles Canons. Only this I will say, that it were as hard a piece of work as ever you took in hand, by good and sufficient authority to justify these your assertions. It is written, not as you quoat it in his book, [ De coelesti hierarchia,] but in the 7. cap. of his book. De Ecclesiastica hierarchia, where you shall plainly understand that your church hath not succeeded him in his doctrine, touching the memorial of the dead, albeit you allege his authority for your defence. This Dionysius speaking of those who are not permitted to communicate saith thus. Non inconuenienter autem adsunt us quae modo geruntur, 
Dionis. de Eccle. hier cap. 7.  patentiùs discentes atque intuentes nostrae mortis incertum, sanctorúmque munera de scriptures celebrata divinis,& intenta sibi similibus impuris infinita supplicia, ex his enim fortè proficient, cernentes eum qui saint obiit ministrorum praedicatione celebrari; vt verè consortem sanctorum omnium, fortasseque& ipsi ad simile desiderium ventent, ministrorum officio edocti quam sit beata& verè foelix in Christo comsummatio. In that memorial of the dead which Dionysius hath left as the practise of his time, the deade was celebrated by the ministers voice, as one who had already feloshippe with all the saints, you celebrate your deade, as men lying under the heavy punishment and wrath of God for their sins, boiling in purgatory, far from any likelihood to be in fellowship already with all the saints. The celebration of the deade in that time was so comfortable( for they had no celebration of any, save them who died godly) that it was thought necessary for the worse sort, to hear and see it, to bring them in love with that kind of life and conversation which they see was glorified in the end. Fortasse( inquit)& ipsi venient ad simile desiderium. Your memorial of the deade is so fearfully set forth, while every man is set a work to help to haal and pull him out of purgatory not onely at the time of his burial, but many daies after: that it were enough to terrify a strong hearted Christian from that profession, where the best are no better entreated: if you had not some secret plaster of Indulgences& Pardons, to heal up this wound again. True it is, there is mention there of prayer for the deade,( for I will deal otherwise with you then you do with me) not hiding any thing of that, that seemeth to make most against me. Precatur oratio illa( inquit Dionysius) divinam clementiam, vt cuncta dimittat per infirmitatem humanam admissa peccata defuncto, eúmque in luke statuat& regione vivorum, in sinibus Abrahae, Isaac,& jacob: ista vt reor perspicua sunt beatissima sanctorum praemia. In this prayer for the deade it is required of God for him, that his sins may be forgiven, and that the Lord would place him in the land of the living, with Abraham, Isaac and jacob, because that is the reward of the saints. afterward he moveth a question about this prayer, what it should profit him that is departed, seeing his reward must be according to that which he hath done, be it good or evil, Fortasse( inquies) ista rectè quidem a nobis dici: verùm ambigere cuius rei gratia praesul divinam precatur clementiam defuncto, peccatorum veniam postulans,& aequalem sanctis ac lucidissimam sortem: si enim eorum quae in vita gessit bonerum aut malorum a diuina iustitia percipiet praemia, perfecit autem actiones suas in vita ista defunctus, quaenam hunc oratio praesulis ad aliam praeter illam quam meruit vitae hic actae respondentem transferet requiem. A little after he answereth this doubt in these words. Quaenam vero de huiusmodi prece, quam supper defuncto peragit praesul, ex divinis ducibus nostris traditio pervenit ad nos, operaepretium est vt dicamus, Venerandus antistes, vt scriptura ait interpres est iudiciorum divinorum, angelus enim domini omnipotentis est: didicit igitur de scriptures divinitus traditis, vt hi qui piè vixerunt lucidissima diuináque vita pro merito ab●equissimis lancibus redditur, non recordante diuina bonitate per summam clementiam maculas, quae illis ex humana infirmitate adhaeserunt. Ista quidem novit pontifex promissa a sanctis eloquiis, petit autem ea fieri donarique eisquipie vixerunt praemia sacra, simul quoque seipsum ad imitationes Dei benignus formans,& aliorum dona, quasi proprias expetens gratias, neque ignorans veras repromissiones futuras, praesentibus etiam apertè demonstrat quod quae ab eo sacro jure postulantur, omnino illi consequentur qui in vita diuina consummati sunt. Prophanis vita functis ista non precatur, quia& indign orans now exaudiretur. His answer in somme is this, That because the minister is the interpreter of the judgements of God, and knoweth that remission of sins and everlasting life is promised unto them that haue lived godly, therefore he prayeth for them imitating therein the goodness of God, requiring other men their gifts as his own graces: and declaring unto them that be present that those things which he prayed for shal happen unto all them whose death shall follow a godly life. And therefore he prayeth not to haue these things granted unto common and profane men, because he should not be heard for them. The question being for what cause the minister shal pray thus, seeing the dead is to receive according as he hath ●oone in his life: the minister is cleared albeit there come no gain unto the dead thereby,( for there is no mention of any profit redounding unto him) first because he is the messenger of the Lord, the Interpreter of his judgements, and therefore in that his prayer doth make declaration of the deade his condition, and as it were put him in possession of the promises made to the faithful, which he knoweth cannot but be performed. And Secondarily, because he doth therein imitate the goodness of God, requiring other their gifts as his own graces,& last of all because he declareth thereby unto those that be present, what is the reward of a godly life. He standeth much vpon the first cause of his prayer, that it putteth the deade as it were in possession of life, and allegeth authority for the ministers, that they haue special gifts given them to discern whose sins be forgiven,& whose are retained, and accordingly in declaration thereof to forgive or retain, to admit unto life or to exclude, according as he doth declare in those words: Sic profectò ille, omnisque illi similis praesul, iuxta paternaarum iustificationum sibi indultas reuelationes, declarando& traducendo deo charos admittit& excludit impios. This memorial of the dead that Dionysius alloweth of, as received from the Apostles: resteth in the minister alone, because he hath special revelation and discretion to discern the good from the bad. There is no allowance here for other men to pray for the dead, who haue not that discretion to discern between the godly and the wicked. Mo●●●uer Dionysiu● his prayer is an admission of the ●●●de into heaven: yours, are emissions or deliverances out of purgatory: they are admitted onely to the benfite of his prayer, whom by special knowledge he is assured to be the elect of God: I never heard of any refused among you, who had so much money as would pay for a diring or a mass of Requiem. By Dionysius his prayer, they are on the first day admitted into heaven: but for any help that wee can learn they haue by your prayers, a man may come many a year after all your first daies work,& yet if we will beleeue you, find them in Purgatory. By Dionysius his doctrine we can never learn that the people may pray for the dead, nor that the minister his prayer addeth any thing to the state of the dead, but is only a declaration of the Lord his mercy towards his, and as it were an admission of them thereunto before men. I hope you will consider advisedly that the doubt arising about this prayer for them, seeing the man is to be judged according to that he hath done in his life: and no benefit being alleged to redound unto the dead, but the chief defence to consist herein that the minister is a messenger between God and man of his events, authorized to pronounce according to that special knowledge and authority that is given unto him: what slender defence you haue from Dionysius. Before I told you that it was not necessary to follow you thus far, seeing you had no help from the Apostles their doctrine, and therefore you are not within the succession of their doctrine, for you are never able to prove that they taught any such doctrine of prayer for the dead as you hold. You see now that as you haue not succeeded them, no more haue you succeeded dionysius in your memorial for the dead.  
Let us see what help you haue from Chrysostom, he saith that the memorial of the dead is a tradition of the Apostles, and that it bringeth much profit unto them. It is true he saith so, and it is as true that the same Chrysostom saith not four lines before, that it bringeth but little help& profit unto them, his words are these. Procuremus illis aliquid auxilii, modici quidem: attamen inuemus eos. Dionysius in his memorial of the dead, findeth no help for thē, but maketh al the profit thereof to redound unto the living, and he saith this kind of memorial was delivered him from the Apostles. Chrysost. saith it bringeth much help unto them, and he also telleth us that so it is delivered to them of his time, under the credit of the Apostles their tradition.  
What shall we say in this variety, one being contrary to another, and the same diverse from himself: but that it is better to hearken unto God than unto man, to lean unto the certainty of his word, than to be tossed this way and that way after the incertainty of their opinions: saying with the Prophet isaiah: 
Esay. 8.  should not a people inquire at their God? to the lawe, to the testimony if they speak not according to this word, it is because ther is no light in them. Augustine his prayer for his mothers soul( as you say) shall testify what was received as the tradition of the Apostles touching the memorial for the dead in his time: for I deny not but he saith that the church had a memorial of them at that time. whatsoever it was that he prayed to haue granted from the lord unto his mother, he himself confesseth that he did believe his mother had obtained it before his prayer. These are his words in that same place. Credo iam feceris quod te rogo, said voluntaria mea approba Domine. I believe that thou hast already performed that which I desire of thee, but allow my good will Lord. This prayer yieldeth no testimony of any satisfaction for her sins, that otherwise shee could not haue been delivered from: but contrariwise confesseth, that shee was delivered from them before his prayer. This prayer acknowledgeth no necessity of duty laid vpon him by the lawe of God, but that it was onely the frank& voluntary gift of a man that wished well unto her. And in very dead it is true that he saith it was voluntary, for he had no pattern or example in the canonical Scriptures, neither in the old nor yet in the new testament to lead him thereunto. But these and such like are the fruits of natural affection and good intents( as wee call them) when they wander without the warrant of the word. By this that hath been said, you may clearly see that in your Doctrine of prayer for the dead, you neither succeed the Apostles who never taught any such Doctrine: neither yet are ye ●ou●de faithful deliverers of that, which some of the ancient fathers in the church haue left in writing touching this matter, as the practise of their time, howsoever degeneratinge and declining from the sincerity of the Apostles Doctrine. If building of Churches, erecting of altars, and offering sacrifices thereupon, bee sure tokens and arguments of the true faith of Christ, as you would prove out of Chrysostome: then the heathen men haue sure marks and tokens of the faith of Christ. For they build Churches, erect altars, and offer sacrifices thereupon, then the superstitious people of all times haue given forth sure arguments of the true faith of Christ, for they haue always abounded in these& such like outward things, being content to work their discharge as they thought, from the renouncing of themselves and from true obedience: by the departing from some outward commodity whereof they had sufficient store, notwithstanding that portion was gone. 
Miche. 6.  The Prophet Micheas speaking in their person, declareth that they were ready to offer thousands of rams in sacrifice, and riuers of oil unto the lord: but he telleth them that to do that which the lord requireth of them, is preferred above al outward things.  
Nay he setteth that which the Lord willeth& requireth in his word, against those, to reprove them as things which he never required, when true obedience to his word was denied. And therefore when he hath spoken in their person as if they were of al men most devout and Religious, not seeminge to deny any thing of theirs unto the Lord, in this manner and form of words: will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams or with x. thousand riuers of oil? as if he should haue that way whatsoever he would: he answereth as if all this were nothing of that which the Lord requireth, saying: He hath shewed thee o man what is good,& what the lord requireth of thee &c. I told you before that I found none of those glisteringe works in that register, which the holy Ghost hath reserved for all ages wherein to see& behold the best men and their works. And now I tel you more, that the godly haue complained, that the true Church of God was in the greatest decay& most ruinouse, when the material church was most glistering and sumptuous, and that they had the least care of that, when they bestowed most care and cost vpon the other. 
Hieron. ad Nepot. de vita clericorum.  jerome complaineth of this in his time saying. Multi aedificant parietes,& columnas Ecclesiae substruunt, marmor a nitent, auro splendent laquearia, gemmis altar distinguitur, at ministrorum Christi nulla electio est. Many build the walls& pillars of the church, the marble shineth, the beams glister with gold, the altar is pointed& divided with precious stones, but there is no choice of the Ministers. If ever this complaint of jerome was verified, it was in the time of Popery. For there was no want of beauty in the material temple, but the true temple was suffered to fall in to utter decay, and how could it bee otherwise for there was no choice of the Ministers, who where to build the true church of God, every man was thought sufficiently able, who could red the mass book, albeit he understood never a word thereof.  
My chief purpose is to give you to understand, that when the material church hath been in greatest beauty, the godly and learned haue complained, that men who are the true and living church, haue been the furthest from the true knowledge& fear of God. Which could not be otherwise, when those who were to finish that work, were altogether ignorant, and no choice made of thē, but( as we say) tagge and rag admitted thereunto without any exception taken either against learning or life. And therefore you may clearly see by jerome his complaint, that building of Churches and Altars, are not the surest notes of the faith of Christ, because those haue been builded, when there haue been such ignorant& lewd Ministers, that it could not be otherwise, but that true faith and religion must go to ruin and decay. Wee may plainly see and perceive, that men haue pleased themselves so in those kind of works: that the godly haue perceived a decay of the greatest dueties, either to bee supported by the glistering show therof, or else not to be espied& rightly examined. And the truth is so, that they are in very deed so glistering to the sight of a natural man, as they do easily carry him from the true sight and estimation of better things, to esteem of them more basely than they do deserve, and of the other more lightly than there is any just cause. And in very deed, wee never haue sene or red that they haue been in great credit, but that thereupon hath grown a small account of true Christian works and of the best deeds. In so much that the learned fathers haue debated the matter, whither that to maintain and relieve poor men in their necessity( who are the living temple) were not as acceptable a work to God, as to build a material temple of ston. 
Eusebius de morte Hieron.  Quod templum Deo charius quàm homo? templum Dei vos estis( inquit Apostolus:) cum pauperi manum tribuis, cum viro in suis necessitatibus subuenis, cum errantem ad viam rectam reducis. O quàm admirabile& Deo gratum templum aedifi●asti! What Church is dearer to god then man? you are the temple of god( saith the apostle,) when thou givest thy helping hand to a poor man, when thou dost succour a man in his necessity, when thou bringest him that is in error into the truth, o how wonderful is that church, and how acceptable unto god which thou hast builded, saith Eusebius. If that time had not doted so greatly in the opinion of those glistering works, that thereupon had grown the neglect of tother, what needeth such extollinge of mercy toward the poor, as to call it a church wonderful in the sight of God? or what meaneth he to restrain the excellency& acceptation of it in this manner,[ howe wonderful and acceptable a church is it unto God,] if this his speech carry not in it a secret reproof and correction of the iudgment of flesh and blood touching those outward glisteringe works, and a meaning to induce them to make more account of the other? It is given forth of the godly, that they were merciful men and well reported of in their times, but as for many of those, who haue left such glisteringe works behind them, they haue been better reported of by the ages who never knew them, than ever they were in their own time, for their dealings while they lived haue had little mercy in them toward the poor. By all likelihood they were of opinion, that that which they purposed to do at their death should make amendes for all. That we may join in this contention for good works, set forth your best men and best works. Let there be on your part, a great number that haue builded Churches, hospitals, and colleges, departing liberally from a great portion of their goods to such ends& purposes: those are of your best sort, for all of you do not leave such fruits behind: And we will set against these an infinite number of men, who in the cause of God his truth, to get glory unto him, and to confirm their bretherē in the Gospel, haue departed not from a portion of their goods and lands: but from all the comforts& commodities of this life, yea& from life itself. Now let iudgment proceed whether of these be more excellent works. Irenaeus affirmeth that this work[ of confirming the Gospel with our blood] is the principal& chief effect and fruit of love. 
iron. lib. 4. ca. ●3.  He maketh it a special note to discern the Church by, that it sendeth multitudes of Martyrs unto God, whereas satan albeit he hath now& than his martyrs as well as Christ, yet they are but a few, nothing compatable in number& multitude with the rest: There is in the church saith Irenaeus, Precipuum dilectionis munus, quod est praetiosius quàm agnitio, gloriosius quam prophetia, omnibus reliquis charismatibus supereminens: quapropter ecclesia omni in loco ob eā quam habet erga deum dilectionem, multitudinem martyrum omni tempore praemittit ad patrem. He calleth martyrdom the chief effect of love passing other gifts,& because the church hath this, he affirmeth that therefore she sendeth multitudes of martyres at al times unto the father, proceeding to declare that albeit sathā labour to haue that in show with Christ hath in truth, yet he cometh infinitely short of the number& multitude that standeth to death in Christ his cause. As your accusation of our want of good works, is the same that hath been made by ancient heretics against the church of god in former times: so in this our answer we are nothing diverse but altogether agreeing with that which Augustine speaketh for the purgation of the Church in his time. His words are these. Quid tanti er●oris longa defensione implicamini? fruges in agro, frumenta in area quaerite: 
August. de moribus eccles. cathol. lib. 1. cap. 35.  apparebunt facilè seseque offerent ipsa quaerentibus: quid nimis in purgamenta oculos intenditis? quid ab opimi horti vbertate imperitos homines sepium asperitate terretis? Est certus aditus quamuis paucioribus notus, quo posset intrari, qùem vos aut esse non creditis, aut invenire non vultis. Sunt in Ecclesia Catholica innumerabiles fideles, qui hoc mundo non utantur, sunt qui utantur tanquam non vtentes, vt ab Apostolo dicitur, quod illis temporibus iam probatum est quibus ad idolorum cultum Christiani cogebantur. Quot enim tunc patres familias rusticani, quot negatiatores, quot milita res, quot primates urbium suarum, quot denique senatores utriusque sexus haec omnia vana& temporalia reliquentes, quibus utique quamuis vterentur non detinebantur mortem pro salubri fide ac religione subierunt demonstraueruntque infidelibus a se potius illa omnia quem se ab eis esse possessos. August. willeth them to look at the corn& to let the chaff alone, to look over the hedge that is stopped and stuffed with thorns, unto the field that is full of fruit& good corn, he blameth thē for being too much given to behold their conversation beside the name, had nothing else of christianity: whom he compareth to chaff and thorns. He telleth them that albeit this field of the lords be hedged about with thorns,& many evil men and of wicked conversation make profession to be of that number: yet for all that there is an entry into it, although it be known onely unto a few: which( saith he) either you beleeue not, or else will not find. He proceedeth to open unto them this entry, whereby they may pass to take a view of the Lord his fruitful field, leading them to the times of persecution, when so many of al estates and degrees, declared that they used the world as if they used it not, by leaving all their goods and their life itself for the cause of the Gospel. he professeth that this entrance to take a view of the lord his harvest, is known to few. I pray you, observe that in Augustine, for the way that you make to lead us to discern of the Church, is known to all, even to wicked men, it is so glorious and glistering. I would we had not cause to say unto you with Augustine: Fruges in agro, frumenta in area querite, quid nimis in purgamenta oculos intenditis? seek for good corn in the barn, why do you look overmuch vpon the chaff? Now I am to crave of you, that you would diligently consider, whether there be not just cause to speak against this rotten fruit that you bring forth, and whither you be that good three that is nourished with the sap of God his word and bringeth forth fruit like unto that, that is left us as a pattern in the calendar of christian works.   

Assertion. 
Apostolica.   
For the third it is written: Constituit vos spiritus sanctus episcopos regere ecclesiam dei, quam acquisiuit sanguine suo. 
Act. 20.   
Pro patribus tuis nati sunt tibi filii, constitues eos principes supper omnem terram, memores erunt nominis tui domine in omni generatione& generationem. 
Psal. 44.  Patres( in quit Augustinus) missi sunt Apostoli, pro apostles, filii nati sunt tibi, 
Augustin.  constituti sunt episcopi. Non ergo te putes desertam quia non vides Petrum, quia non vides Paulum, quia non vides eos, per quos nata es de prole tua tibi crevit paternitas, haec est ecclesia catholica. 
August. lib. 7. de trinit. Cap. 4.  Quatuor esse euangelia nobis non prodit scriptura, neque trees personas deum vnum esse, atque adeo ne reperitur quidem personae nomen in scriptures de Deo dictum, sicut nec trinitatis. Nos tamen trees personas dicimus, non quia scriptura dicit( inquit Aug.) said quia scriptura non contradicit,& quia sic ab apostles& eorum successoribus traditum accepimus, 
Dionysius cap. 7 de eccles. hierarc. Orige. lib. 5. in Epistol. ad Roma. Libr. 4. capi. 63.  quorum etiam esse traditionem vtparuuli baptizetur Dionysius et Origenes testantur. Irenaeus Apostolorum temporibus proximus fuit, cuius verba haec sunt: Agnitio vera est apostolorum doctrina,& ecclesia antiquus status inv●tuer so mundo secundum successiones episcoporum, quibus illi eam quae in vnoquoque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt, quae pervenit ad nos vsque custodita. 
Idem. lib. 4. cap. 43.  Et alio loco ●s tantum Episcopis obedire jubet, qui successionem habent ab apostles, qui cum successione episcopatus, charisma veritatis certum acceperunt. Reliquos vero qui absistunt a principally successione, quocunque loco colligantur suspectos haberi vult. 
Deprae scrip. aduersus haereticos.  Tertul. cupio( inquit) ostendant mihi exqua authoritate {pro}dierunt. Edant origines ecclesiarum suarum, euoluant ordinem Episcoporum svorum, ita per successiones ab initio decurrentem, vt primus ille episcopus aliquem ex apostles vel apostolicis viris, qui tamen cum apostles perseuerauerit habuerit authorem et antecessorem, hoc enim modo ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deserunt. Sicut ecclesia Smyrnaeorum Polycarpū a when collocatum refert: sicut Romanorum Clementem a Petro ordinatum edit. Proinde vtique& caeterae exhibent quos ab apostles in episcopatu constitutos apostolici seminis traduces habeant. Now you see that the true& very church of Christ is that which hath her succession of bishops from thapostles, which bishops with the successio of their bishoprics hath received the certain grace of truth, that is to say the sacrament of the holy orders by imposition of hands in the which god giveth the said grace, as paul witnesseth saying to Tim. 
2. Timot. 1.  Admoneo te vt resuscites gratiam dei quae in te est {per} impositionem manuum mearum And also that the ancient state of the church through the world not in one place or two is the true doctrine of the Apostles( Teste Irenaeo) which concordeth with this saying of the Prophet jeremy, 
Teste dicto Ire●aeo. Ieremi. cap. 6.  State supervias,& videte& interrogate de semitis antiquis, non novis, quae sit via bona,& ambulate in ea,& invenietis requiem animabus vestris. 
acts. 13.  Scriptura refert Apostolos ieiunantes& orantes imposuisse manus Paulo& Barnabae, quos ex praecepto spiritus sancti mittebant ad praedicandum Euangilium. Si in collatione ordinis nulla infunderetur gratia, non esset opus tanta praeparatione. Which grace is that certum charisma, 
A proof against the puritans and family of love.  which Irenaeus saith before, must be received with the succession of their bishoprics, for if they receive not that per impositionem manuum of the former Bishops so ordained, they are not( by the said Irenaeus words) to be obeied.   

answer.  
YOu say there is a continual succession as well of bishops as of doctrine in the church, from the Apostles time unto this. For proof of your succession as well of bishops as doctrine. You allege a place out of the acts cap. 20. ver. 28. Constituit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos regere ecclesiam Dei, quam acquisivit sanguin● suo. here is not one word for succession either of Bishops or Doctrine, no not one word that can bee wrong that way, and I hope you do remember that to haue been your purpose to prove. These words that you haue alleged, signify thus much in our tongue: The holy ghost hath appointed you Bishops, to govern the church of god, which he hath purchased with his blood. What I pray you is here to bee gathered for continual succession? In this place the Apostle telleth the bishops of Ephesus that their charge is great, to be betrusted with those whom the Lord hath purchased with no less price than his blood: But as for succession of Doctrine and Bishops, that it shalbe continual, there is not one word that soundeth that way. And therefore I pray you even as you tender your own salvation, that you would not suffer yourselves to be carried away with so weak grounds. But I pray you seeing this witness cometh from heaven, let us hear more of him. And good reason it is that he should be heard at large, for he is the onely witness that you bring from above, to testify with you for your doctrine that it is apostolical. I pray you red the two verses following this, which you haue alleged. You shall find it there written thus. Ego enim, novi hoc, quod ingressuri sunt post discessum meum lupi graues in vos, non parcentes gregi:& ex vobis ipsis exorientur viri loquentes peruersa, vt abducant discipulos post se. do you not see that he forewarneth the Bishops of Ephesus to look well to themselves, and to their charges, because he knew that after his departure wolves would enter vpon the flock, and that out of themselves would arise men speaking perverse things to draw disciples after them. here is a prophesy that wolves shal shortly enter into the flock: Nay which more is, there is here a foretelling that some of themselves shall degenerat into wolves. This authority therefore that foretelleth the entering in of woolfs,& prophesyeth of the degenerating of some of themselves into wolves, is a weak ground to build succession vpon,& to persuade us that wee ought to embrace that doctrine, with can bring for it only succession of good persons or places. If you shal well weigh that place, you shal find that it is not possible to speak more directly against succession then that place doth.  
Augustine vpon the psalm 44. affirmeth that the church may not take her self to be forsaken because she seeth not Peter& paul, but he proveth not, neither speaketh so much as one word for a continual succession of Bishops, to continue unto the end of the world as a mark of the true church, who are to deliver their places orderly, and their doctrine truly without any corruption unto others. peradventure you think that because Augustin interpreteth this place of scripture so, that he will haue the children to signify bishops,& then saith in the plural number that they shal remember thy name for ever: that therefore there must be a continual succession of Bishops. This error groweth vpon the ignorance of the Hebrew tongue: for ther the berbe is in the singular number,& so it is in the translation of the Septuaginta. It is likewise so interpnted by Hierom, who had more skill in the Hebrew tongue then Augustine had, and referred not unto bishops but unto the church, that shee shall remember the name of the Lord for ever. 
Hieron. ad princip. virgin.  His words are these: Regina quae steterat a dexteris tuis in vestitu deaurato,& iussa fuerat obliuisci populi& domus patris sui, iterum illi dictum erat, pro patribus tuis nati sunt tibi filii, constitues eos principes supper omnem terram: intelligens quanta sit decoranda gloria,& quibus praemijs subleuanda, convertit ad sponsum voces suas:& pollicetur recordaturam se semper nominis sponsi, in omni generatione& generatione. You may hear howe jerome saith it is the church that shal remember the name of the lord for ever, and not as you would haue it the bishops onely.  
That the church receiveth four gospels and no more, that it giveth the name of Person& trinity unto God, not because the scripture expressly directeth us in these things, but because it doth not speak against then( as you say) and because it is so delivered unto us from the Apostles: doth nothing at all prove, that the grounds of faith& religion which the apostles taught, shall remain unto the end of the world in the safe custody of Bishops:& that they shall truly deliver thē over to their successors, so as we may safely stick to succession as a true note of the church. I do marvel that you do so greatly forget yourself and the matter that you haue taken in hand to prove. Is this the doctrine of the Apostles touching salvation, or their tradition? your purpose is to prove that the doctrine of the Apostles left in writing concerning the grounds of faith& Religion, is delivered from Bishop to Bishop in the true sense& understanding therof, by a perpetual succession for the benefit of the church. Therfore as before you could find no succession of person, so here you fail in finding succession of doctrine. If al that is brought be true, yet is nothing proved but a succession of some tradition. For there is not one word spoken for the reserving of the scriptures unto the church in the true sense and understanding therof. now for the things themselves, the church of God by the word trieth true teachers from false Prophetes,& true Doctrine from counterfeit and corrupt. And so are we exhorted to do, And albeit the scripture hath not expressly set down the very words of Trinity and person, yet hath it set down al that truth which is contained in these words, whereby the church was directed to make choice of such words, for the better explaining of matters in controversy. It appeareth by Augustine that the church had not onely the scriptures not speaking against the name of Trinity, but leading them to to use that name. His words are these. Nobis autem sufficiat scire de Trinitate, 
August. de temp. sermo. 190.  quod Dominus exponere dignatus est: quod ergo dicit ad Apostolos: item,& baptizate omnes gentes, in nomine patris,& filii,& spiritus Sancti, Tria nomina audio,& vnum dicitur nomen, non enim dixit in nominibus, said in nomine. You hear Augustine his iudgement that touching the Trinity it is sufficient for us to hold that which the lord himself hath declared therein.  
The place which you do allege out of Irenaeus maketh greatly against you, 
iron. lib. 4. ca. 64  and your church, and so will it appear unto any indifferent reader. But you haue not dealt simply herein, for ye haue kept back that with bewrayeth your cause, breaking of the sentence, where ther was no manner of point, no not so much as a comma. I will set down the whole unto you, and let yourself be your own judge, whether you or whosoever did deliver it unto you, hath dealt well and simply herein. Agnitio vera est Apostolorum Doctrina,& antiquus Ecclesiae status in vniuerso mundo& charactere corporis Christi, secundùm successiones Episcoporum, quibus illi eam quae in vnoquoque loco est Ecclesiam tradiderunt, quae pervenit ad nos usque custodita sine fictione, scripturarum tractatione plenissima, neque ablationem recipieus lectio sine falsatione,& secundum Scripturas expositio legitima& diligence,& sine periculo,& sine blasphemia& praecipuum dilectionis munus quod est preciosius quam agnitio, gloriosius autem quàm Prophetia, omnibus autem reliquis Charismatibus supereminens. Quapropter Ecclesia omni in loco ob eam quam habet erga Deum dilectionem multitudinem martyrum in omni tempore praemittit ad Patrem.  
he placeth true knowledge in the Apostles doctrine, and in the old state of the church, as knowledge was given therof by those Bishops, to whom the Apostles committed the Churches, that were then in the time of Irenaeus in any place. All the succession that here is mentioned, is restrained unto those bishops who wear immediately after the Apostles, at whose hands they received those Churches. Now that this knowledge came truly to him& his time from those Bishops: this induceth him to think so, because they received from them, Scripturarum tractationem plenissimam: A plentiful treatise of the Scriptures, without suspicion of forgery or falsifying. Secondly because they received from them( as he saith) Expositiones legitimas secundum scripturas,& sine periculo,& sine blasphemia: Diligent and lawful commentaries& expositions agreeable to the scriptures, not containing any blasphemy or error: Whereas heretics will not haue their expositions measured by scriptures, but scriptures measured by their expositions& interpretations of them: affirming that they onely haue the true sense therof because they are the Church that cannot err: Thirdly because there was in that ancient state of the church to be seen, Praecipuum dilectionis munus: The greatest fruit of love even to offer themselves unto martyrdom in great numbers and multitudes, by reason of that love which they did bear unto God and his Gospel: Multitudinem enim martyrum praemittit ad Deum patrem. If this testimony of Irenaeus had holpen you, it should not haue mentioned those Bishops onely to whom the Apostles delivered the Churches, but spoken of an orderly succession of them to continue forever without any rstrainte, Neither should he haue spoken so spatingly of the matter, as to haue said it came safe to their hands, who were so near the Apostles time by them who succeeded the Apostles: but without any suspicion of alteration, he should haue given it forth as a matter appointed and established, whereby to keep doctrine safe unto the Church for ever. And last of all he should haue suppressed the notes of their faithfulness, consisting in the reserving of the scriptures without forgery or falsefiyng: and in warranting their expositions by scriptures:& in having to be seen the principal effect of love: with is multitudes of martyrs dying for the Gospel, and haue sent us only unto succession, charging us to receive that with we shal find observed there, without any further question, because succession was appointed to bee an infallible note of the church in al times, which is the pillar of truth. You see he dealeth far otherwise. If wee had received from your Bishops a diligent examination of your writings by the scriptures,(& that ye had not left them& gone to fathers, councils,& traditions, charging us to stick unto succession) with that other note which he calleth the principal effect of love: than might we haue said with Irenaeus, Agnitio vera pervenit vsque ad nos. As this place flatly condemneth your church, where there is neither the confirming of your writings& preachings by scriptures, neither yet that other note of plentiful witnessing to the truth by death and martyrdom, so doth it strongly establish ours, and justify it to haue true knowledge in it, and to bee agreeable to the ancient estate of the church, because those three notes that he speaketh of are apparently to be seen in our churches. For we haue the scriptures plentifully set forth, we warrant our expositions by scriptures:& we haue& do send daily multitudes of martyrs unto the father, who testify his truth unto the world,& seal up the assurance therof with their blood. Your other place out of Irenaeus doth help your cause no more then the former. Nay the circumstances of the place do utterly overthrow the meaning that you would make of it. Which that it may plainly appear I will set down unto you together with your place, those words also that go in order and next before& after it. 
iron. aduersus haereses Valenti. lib. 4. cap. 4●.  Intelligentes fulgebunt quemadmodum claritas firmamenti,& a multis justis sicut stellae in secula. Et adhuc quemadmodum ignur ostendimus siquis legate scripturas. Etenim dominus sic disseruit discipulis post resurrectionem suam a mortuis,& ex ipsis scriptures ostendens eis quoniam oportebat pati Christum& intrare gloriam suam,& in nomine eius remissionem peccatorum praedicari in toto mundo,& erit consummatus discipulus& similis patrifamilas, qui de thesauro suo profert noua& vetera. Quapropter eis qui in ecclesia sunt presbiteris ob audire oportet, qui successionem habent ab apostles sicut ostendimus, qui cum Episcopatus successione charissima veritatis certum, secundum placitum patris acceperunt. Reliquos vero qui absistunt a principally successione, quocunque loco colligantur suspectos habere, vel quasi haereticos& malae sententiae, vel quasi scindentes& elatos& sibi placentes, aut rursus vt hypocritas questus gratia& vanae gloriae hoc operantes. Omnes autem hi decedunt a veritate, et haeretici quidem alienum ignem afferentes ad altar dei, id est alienas doctrinas, a caelesti igne comburentur, quemadmodum Nadab& Abiu. The matter he speaketh of immediately before, is to declare what excellency a man atteineth unto by the reading and knowledge of the Scriptures,& that our saviour Christ proved after his resurrection unto his disciples out of the scriptures, that christ ought to suffer and so enter into his glory: and thereunto addeth that he is a good disciple & like unto the good man of the house, who bringeth out of his treasure provision new and old: immediately hereupon he bringeth in that sentence which you allege wherefore we must obey those bishops that are in the Church, who together with the succession of their bishoprics, haue received the sure gift of truth, according to the good will of the father. There is not secundùm impositionem manuum, as you would willingly gather. All his speech before was of the truth and scriptures of God, this that you haue alleged beginneth with the note of illation or inferring [ Quapropter] wherefore, &c. And the thing brought in thereupon is, that those Bishops ought to be obeyed, who haue received the grace& gift of truth according to the good pleasure of the father: All other which haue not this principal succession of truth, he maketh either heretics, schismatics, or hypocrites, affirming that they fall from the truth which before he had called the principal succession. And continuing stil in the same matter he affirmeth that those who bring strange fire, that is ( as he interpreteth it) strange doctrine, shalbe burnt with heavenly fire as was Nadab& Abiu. So that the whole chapter runneth vpon the word of god& true doctrine, which he calleth the principal succession, without the which he would haue us to suspect any bishop what succession soever he had of place. And if al this can not satisfy you, that his meaning is to make no account of succession of person& place, when the principal succession of truth is wanting: turn unto the next chapter, where the same matter is continued,& there you shal find these words. Ab omnibus igitur talibus absistere oportet, adhaerere vero his, qui& Apostolorum( sicut praediximus) doctrinam custodiunt et cum presbyterij ordine sermonem sanum& conuersationem sine offensa praestant, ad informationem& correctionem reliquorum. Where you may plainly see what succession he spoken of before, even the succession of the Apostles doctrine. Al the patching& piecing in the world, can never make hole this breach that Irenaeus hath made into your succession of persons,& you may clearly understand what cost& pains you haue bestowed in vain, in labouring to bring in your sacrament of orders& imposition of hands, as being understood by that, which he calleth the gift or grace of truth. If the word[ truth] can not move you, the circumstances( if ye will not bee willingly blinded) can not but persuade you. I do therfore with your own authority reply against you, that al those are to bee suspected, what succession soever they bring of person or place, that bring not with thē the principal succession, with is the doctrine of the Apostles. If true doctrine went always with succession of bishops, what needeth iron. to speak of any diuorse between thē? nay, what needeth he to will us to look unto the truth making the principal succession, that as for your neighbours that stand in the margin, if your weapon were answerable to your good will, I would tell them, that you haue bid battle unto them: But in as much as I see you fall down in the field, your own weapon taken out of your hand,& yourself wounded withal, I haue more pitty of you, than of thē:& therfore there shal no beacon burn( by my consent) to warn any to beware of war from you: until I see you recovered of some of those damgerous wounds, that you haue taken already.  
From Irenaeus you pass to Tertullian, with whom it will fall out, that you shall find as little help for your purpose, as you haue had before from Irenaeus. And because you suppress always that that maketh against you: I am here enforced, as before, to set down that which immediately goeth before, and also follow the words by you alleged. 
Tertul. de praescrip. aduersus. haereticos.  Caeterùm si quae audent interserere se etati Apostolicae vt ideo videantur ab apostles traditae, quia sub apostles fuerunt: possumus dicere, Edant ergo origines ecclesiarum suarum: euoluant ordinem episcoporum svorum, ita per successiones ab initio decurrentem, vt primus ille episcopus aliquem ex apostles vel Apostolicis viris, qui tamen cum apostles perseuerauerit habuerit authorem& antecessorem. Hoc enim modo ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt, sicut Smyrnaeorum ecclesia habens Policarpum ab when collocatum refert, sicut Romanorum, Clementem a Petro ordinatum edit, proinde utique& caeterae exhibent, quos ab apostles in episcopatu constitutos Apostolici seminis traduces habeant. Confingant tale aliquid haeretici.  
Quid enim illis post blasphemiam illicitum est? said& si confinxerint, nihil promouebunt. Ipsa enim doctrina eorum cum Apostolica comparata, ex diversitate& contrarietate sua pronunciabit, neque Apostoli alicuius Autoris esse, neque Apostolici. Quia sicut Apostoli non diuersa inter se docuissent, ita& Apostolici non contraria apostles aedidissent, nisi illi qui ab apostles desciuerunt,& aliter praedicauerunt. Ad hanc itaque formam prouocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex apostles vel apostolicis autorem suum proferant, vt multò posteriores: quae denique quotidie instituuntur: tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae. Ita omnes haereses ad vtramque formam à nostris Ecclesiis prouocatae, probent se quaqua putant Apostolicas. If any would therfore be accounted apostolical churches, because they lived under the apostels,& in their time: let such churches show what Apostle did first found theirs( saith tertul.) Wee are not in their time, neither claim wee privilege in any such respect: but mark what followeth: If they could forge such a succession( saith he) belike then it is not altogether unpossible so to do, yet would it help them nothing, because the Apostles doctrine compared with theirs, would bewray it not to bee the Apostles nor Apostolical. You haue cause therefore to bee ashamed ever hereafter, to make succession of bishops a necessary note of the church, with by tertul. his iudgement is subject to forgery,& if it were not, yet could not prove any thing at al( as he saith) when the doctrine of the Apostles shallbe found diverse and disagreeing from theirs. You may see that he will haue the Apostles doctrine, to confute& overthrow that succession which upholdeth any doctrine contrary or diverse from theirs. And consider this one thing well I pray you, that he saith heretics are to be brought to the trial of the Apostles doctrine, by those Churches which albeit they bring none of the Apostles nor apostolical men for their Authors and first founders( as being a long time after them) yet are never a whit the less to be accounted apostolical, by reason of their kindred& alliaunce with the Apostles doctrine. He affirmeth plainly and in express words, that the churches which were long after the Apostles time, are to be tried whether they be apostolical or no, by that Doctrine which the Apostles delivered: But as for these Churches that were next unto the Apostles time, they dare be bold( saith he) to provoke heretics jointly to the trial of succession as well of person, as of doctrine. Succession therfore of Bishops is( by Tertullian his iudgement) no trial of Churches at this time, his authority hath utterly euerthrowen that hold of yours. mark well the words for they are Tertullian his words and not mine. Ad hanc itaque formam prouocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex apostles vel Apostolicis viris authorem suum proferunt, vt multò posteriores, quae denique quotidie instituuntur, tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate Doctrinae.  
From this place of Tertullian wee haue a plain Doctrine, that whatsoever the fathers haue spoken for succession of Bishops, as a mark to make known the true church: by the same is to be restrained unto those times that were nere unto the Apostles. For of other churches he saith, albeit they bring none of the Apostles or Apostolical men for there authors, as being long after them: nevertheless agreeing with them in faith and Doctrine, they are to be accounted Apostolical as well as the other, because of their alliance by doctrine. The very words that immediately go before these which you haue alleged, do put the matter out of doubt, that this trial of succession is onely ment for such Churches as were nere the Apostles time. His words are these: Caeterùm si quae audent interserere se aetati Apostolicae, vt ideo videantur ab apostles traditae, quia sub apostles fuerunt, possimus dicere: Edant ergo origines Ecclesiarum suarum, euoluant ordinem Episcoperum svorum, &c. But if any dare intrude themselves into the Apostles time, that they should be accounted apostolical, because they were under the Apostles: we may say let those then show the original of their Churches, let them recite the order and succession of their bishops. I hope now sir that you do plainly see, what little help you haue from these authorities that are alleged by you:& that you do well consider howe vnfaithfully they haue been aduouched, what cutting and paringe you haue made of them, and howe that ther is not one of your witnesses brought to prove your church to be Apostolical, if you had suffered him to tell out his tale, and not stopped his mouth in the midst of his speech: but would haue utterly overthrown your cause, and established ours which you labour to overthrow. And therefore I do beseech you in the fear of God to look well unto it. Peruse the places again, consider better of them, and mark the judgements of god vpon you& your cause, that your very witnesses should be wray you, even those that you deliberately& of purpose haue picked out to speak for your purgation. If I might haue prescribed those fathers what to say against your cause, and for ours: I could haue devised no better matter than they haue uttered, even in the places by you alleged. Irenaeus saith plainly that the truth hath descended from the Apostles to his time without forgery: because the scriptures were faithfully delivered unto them: and because all their commentaries and expositions were warraunted by the Scriptures: You do not warrant your expositions by Scriptures, but contrariwise will haue the Scriptures to haue warrant from your expositions: for you must give the sense and meaning thereof, because it is of and in itself, as you say afterward, Mortua vox, a dead word.  
he saith in the other place, that those bishops, that depart from the principal succession of true doctrine, whatsoever they haue to say for their succession of person and place, are notwithstanding to bee suspect of Heresy or schism.  
What need was there to make mention of the truth, as the principal succescion, that we should be suspicious of those Bishops, that had no such succession from the Apostles: if the succession of the truth be( as you say) kept and reserved in a continual orderly succession of bishops: if wheresoever that succession bee of persons, the other of Doctrine bee vnseperably bound thereunto. For if wheresoever there be this succession of bishops, ther wee must look undoubtedly to haue the truth, then is that of person, the principal succession, and the other of truth, but a companion, that waiteth and giveth daily and dutifully attendance thereupon. If this bee so, then wee are first to inquire after the succession of persons, being assured there to find the truth: And in deed your proofs such as they be, are wholly alleged for succession of person, belike if you could find that, you would not greatly pass for finding the truth. You are contrary to Irenaeus herein, who maketh succession of truth, the principal succession. As for tertul. he affirmeth plainly, that the doctrine of the apostles will confute them, whosoever shall bring a diverse doctrine, albeit they allege for thē succession of persons as you do from the Apostles: Ipsa enim inquit doctrina eorum cum Apostolica comparata, ex diversitate& contrarietate sua pronunciabit, neque Apostoli alicuius esse neque Apostolici. he affirmeth likewise that the churches who were long after the Apostles time, are to try themselves Apostolical by their alliance with the Apostles in doctrine. Ad hanc itaque foreman prouocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex apostles vel Apostolicis authorem suum proferunt, vt multò posteriores: tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs. Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae. You see what help we haue for our religion, out of your strongest houldes. We haue in the scriptures the authentical letters and Epistles of the Apostles, containing the sum of that Doctrine, which they taught in those Churches that they planted which are rightly called by Tertullian the mother Churches. Wee haue the sum of that Doctrine left us in writing, which paul taught at Rome, at Corinth, at Philippos, at Ephesus, and at Thessalonica, where he founded Churches. You should first haue warranted your religion by that doctrine,& from thence haue proceeded to let us understand, how that doctrine hath continued amongst you from time to time. You would bear the world in hand, that you derive your doctrine from the Apostles and ancient Churches, yet you shun as rocks all trial by the Apostles and those mother Churches, where their chairs were placed, and their own doctrine faithfully under their own hands and seals delivered. Let us first see how you do agree with the Apostles themselves, and then with those Bishops who haue succeeded them: how with the first& mother Churches, and then with those latter who haue been planted after them. Let us see you first knit unto the head, and then unto the members. After your testimonies and allegations for succession, you add these words: Now ye see that the true and very Church of Christ is, which hath her succession of Bishops from the Apostles: whereunto I answer that there is no eye so sharp of sight, that can discern any such matter, by those proofs that you haue brought: but every man that hath not his eyes closed up, may see plainly( by that light which your own witness haue given unto this cause) that succession of Bishops is no note now in these later times whereby to discern the church.  
You infer likwyse vpon such authorities as you haue aduouched, that the ancient state of the church through the world is the Apostles doctrine. I know you can haue no colour for any such collection, unless you take liberty to change and transpose Est for&, and& for est, after your pleasure: that whereas Irenaeus saith, Agnitio vera est Apostolorum doctrina& antiquus Ecclesiae status: You read: Agnitio vera& Apostolorum doctrina est antiquus Ecclesiae status. As for those prints and marks of the old state of the church, which were in Irenaeus his time, I proved before that they where clean worn out, and no token of them to bee seen among you: for your expositions are not legitimat by Scriptures, but laid vpon us by virtue of the church, whereof you stil pled possession, howe unjust soever your title bee.  
You would gladly find out of these words. Certum charisma veritatis: The Sacrament of orders: which you say is received together with their Bishopriks: but the circumstances of that place make the matter so plain to be ment of the gift or grace of truth, which he calleth the principal succession, as no man that will vouchsafe to read and compare it with that which goeth before and also followeth it, can possibly bee brought to make a doubt thereof. From your holy orders which you would wring out of this place, you proceed I will not say without order, I am sure without any occasion offered to the manner of ordaining bishops, ●hich you say must be by the laying on of hands of former bishops so ordained, or otherwise they are not to bee obeied.  
So that you secretly shoot at the ministry of the church of England, that it is utterly unlawful& not to bee obeied, because our bishops with haue ordained others, were not themselves ordained of your Bishops, that were before them. do you say that no man is a lawful Bishop, but he that is ordained of another bishop? If that be true thē I dare say and can plainly prove, that your Bishops are unlawful Bishops, 
Hieron. ad evagr. Titus. 1. ver. 5.7.  and therefore not to be obeied. For from the beginning( as Hierom testifieth) there was no difference in the church between a bishop and a minister: but afterward when schisms grew to be many and great in the Church, for the suppressing thereof one was appointed to be above the rest, which had the name of bishop proper unto him, which before was common unto all, as the Scripture declareth. In those first times therefore of schism, those bishops must of necessity be ordained of others then bishops: because there were then no bishops in the Church, as now we do speak of thē. And therefore by your own reason, your own bishops being as you affirm from the beginning, are illegitimate and not to be obeied, because they were not ordained of former bishops: now that if they were not lawfully ordained themselves, thē could they not lawfully ordained others: for other title then they had themselves they could not give unto others. By this description that you haue made of the lawful ordaining& creating of bishops, the whole brood of your bishops from the first unto the last, standeth illigitimate& plainly convict of bastardy. We know and are assured by the truth of GOD his word, that it is lawful for ministers of the word, to ordain them who are to labour in the ministery of the word: for thus we read in the Epistle to timothy. 1. cap. 4. 
1. Tim. 4.  Ne neglige illud donum quod datum est tibi per prophetiam cum impositione manuum praesbiterij. Now there is no man, howe ignorant soever he be of the Scripture, or of the Greek tongue in the which the new testament was penned, if he haue any skill in the latin: that will derive Presbyterium, non à presbyteris, said ab Episcopis. You may perceive thē that they were praesbiteri and not Episcopi ministers or elders, and not bishops( as now we speak of bishops) that laid hands vpon timothy, when he was called to the ministery of the word. You see therefore that at the ordaining of timothy they were presbyteri elders or Ministers of the word, which gave this grace by the imposition of their hands, which you say can not bee given but by bishops. Now if presbyteri Ministers of the word, may ordain other by imposition of hands. thē I trust we shal haue you more favourable hereafter to the ministry here in England. If we haue nothing else to say for it, yet at the least because they who in these last times haue been the instruments of God to reform Religion, and haue ordained others to serve in the ministry of the word and Sacramentes, were presbyteri: having from your church imposition of hands, whereby there is so great grace given as you say.  
True it is that imposisition of hands was a consecration and putting a parte of men to serve in the ministry of the word, by attending vpon reading, exhortation, and doctrine: according as the Apostle declareth in this fourth chapter of timothy: for when he hath willed timothy to attend vpon reading, exhortation, and doctrine, forthwith signifying that he was called thereunto, and that it was his function to the end he might thereby the more bee touched with the matter, he addeth these words: Neglect not that gift or function which was committed unto thee by imposition of hands.  
This mark of that vocation which doth consist in attending vpon exhortation and doctrine continued in your church, Tanquam cadaver verae vocationis, as it were a carcase of a true calling: for you attended not vpon the word setting it forth truly by exhortation and doctrine, which was the life of that calling: but found a greater gain to get money by, in attending vpon the sale of masses and pardons, having great gain not only by thē that were living: but also by those that were long ago departed: so that in very dead there was nothing remaining beside the corps of the true calling. unto this carcase and corps of the true calling, it pleased the lord in that great mercy wherewith he loved us, when wee were enemies unto him: now again in these latter daies after so long want therof, to breath in life& vital spirites: giving unto diverse who had no more beside the old mark of that calling, not only gifts of knowledge to be able: but of zeal also to be willing& bold, even when the market of your inventions& Traditions was the greatest to publish the Gospel of God,& to beate down your inventions by doctrine& exhortation out of the word: giuing forth evident testimonies thereby, that they were the true& lawful ministers of Christ, bebecause they had the truth and life of the ministery, which in your Church was wanting, in as much as they did attend upon exhortation and doctrine, according to the truth of the word, whereunto in the primitive church men were appointed by imposition of hands. You speak nothing here of that which is principal, that is of the election unto that place and function after due examination had before, both of life and learning, without the which al your purest Canons account him as a Leyman,& appoint grievous punishment for him that shall otherwise ordain him: but so you haue the shadow, you pass not for the body: so you may enjoy the least of the accessaries, you can willingly want the principal. The occasion that you haue offered in ascribing so much to the imposition of hands, hath drawn me beside my purpose and meaning to speak, as you haue already heard touching that matter.   

Assertion. 
Catholica.   
For the fourth the Prophet saith. In omnem terram exivit sonus eorum, 
Psalm. 18. Isa. 2. Psalm. 71. Psalm. 21. Psalm. 129. & in fines orbis terrae verba eorum, viz. Apostolorum. Esay the Prophet saith. Fluent ad eum( scilicet montem zion) omnes gentes, adorabunt eum omnes Reges,& omnes gentes seruient ei( inquit Propheta regius).& alibi. Apud te laus in Ecclesia magna. Et iterum copiosa apud eum redemptio. 
acts. 1. Psalm. 18. Matth. 5.  Eritis mihi testes in jerusalem( inquit Christus)& in omni judaea,& Samaria,& vsque ad ultimum terrae. In sole posuit tabernaculum suum( inquit Propheta. 
Psalm. 18. ) Non potest civitas abscondi supper montem posita: neque accendunt lucernam, 
Matth. 5. & ponunt eam sub modio, said supper candelabrum, vt luceat omnibus qui in domo sunt( inquit Christus. Turpis est( inquit August.) omnis pars vniuerso suo non congruence: 
August. lib. 3. ●onfes●io. ca. 8.  tu cum te partem cum Christi corporis membrum existimari velis, quae tamen ab hoc vniuerso Christi corpore quae ab omnibus his qui christiani, qui catholici, qui orthodoxi censentur quamlibet magnis& locorum& temporum interuallis inter se desiunctis tam admirabili consensu obseruari vides, vt neque temporum diuersitas, neque linguarum varietas, neque locorum ingens intercapedo laedere concordiam eorum potuerint: said similes lirae sint& semper fuerint, quae multas quidem& diversas habet chordas, unam tamen symphoniam& sonorum concentum vnum amittit. Tuinquā, eum hoc vniuerso vsque eo non congruis, vt in despectum vniuersi Christi corporis contraria potius facias omnia. Quid esse potest turpius? Quid indignius homine christiano? aut quae potest esse nota illustrior, qua te non Christi colligentis verum satanae spargentis ministrum esse cuiuis constare queat? Haec Aug.  
Multa sunt( inquit dictus Aug.) quae in gremio Ecclesiae me iustissimè teneant quae sequuntur. 
August.   
Tenet consensio populorum atque gentium.  
Tenet authoritas miraculis inchoata, spe nutrita, charitate aucta, vetustate firmata.  
Tenet ab ipsa seed Petri Apostoli, cvi pascendas oves suas post resurrectionem dominus commendauit vsque ad praesentem Episcopatum successio sacerdotumi.  
Tenet postremò ipsum catholicae nomen, quod non sine causa inter multas haereses sic ecclesia sola obtinuit, vt cum omnes haeretici se catholicos dici velint, quaerenti tamen peregrino alicui ubi ad catholicam conueniatur nullus haereticorum vel basilicam suam vel domum audeat ostendere. Haec ille.  
Catholicam dicit toto orb diffusam quia diuersorum haereticorum ecclesia ideo catholicae non dicuntur, quia per loca atque per suas quasque provincias continentur: haec vero à solis ortu vsque ad occasum unius fidei splendere diffunditur. 
Aug. serm. 91. de tempor● math. Against the puritans and family of love.  Non est igitur obscura catholica, non potest abscondi civitas supper montem posita, non potest ignorari mons qui implevit vniuersam faciem terrae.  
Now we that be the catholics are ready to show and prove, that the church which we profess hath had and hath all the said four marks in her, which also had her beginning with Christ, his Apostles, and primitive church, and doth derive her authority faith and doctrine from them, in a continual succession of Bishops: which is a most evident mark of the true church and Doctrine: as all the said with diuers others famous and learned ancient Authors affirmeth: of the which some were of the primitive church,& therfore the meetest iudges thereof.   

answer.  
touching the fourth note of the church, that it is catholic or universal, if you set it against particularity, meaning that the church is not bound to any particular place or person we do embrace it as a certain truth: But if you will haue the church alway discerned by the greater multitude, the scriptures will not suffer us to join with you in that. Your testimonies out of the Scriptures, as that of isaiah the second, and the testimonies next following out of the psalms: do prove that many people shall bee brought to the true knowledge& worship of god. For the universal note [ al] is so taken in the scriptures. And I am persuaded that you do not think that all people and nations in general shalbe brought to be of the true church: but as for comparison, whether that the number shal be greater or less than they that are not brought to the faith, they do make no mention therof.  
The other testimonies do declare that the truth shall come into many places, but whether those places shalbe more or fewer than the rest, or whether the greater number of the inhabitants of those places shalbe gained by the truth unto God, they do not speak any word thereof: yet I think that is the matter that you would willingly establish hereby. Your last witness out of the Gospel, if it bee granted you that it is spoken of the church in general, yet will it make nothing for universality, unless any will imagine, that whatsoever is visible or not hidden, is thereby forthwith made general& common to al persons and places. You allege a large testimony for this universality,& do quote in your margin August. lib. 3. confess. cap. 8. Where there is no more of all you haue alleged to bee found, save the first line, which is: Turpis enim omnis pars est suo vniuerso non congruence. every part is evil favoured, that agreeth not with his whole. This Authority telleth us what worketh the disgrace of a part, even this not to bee agreeable to that whole whereof he is part: As for your purpose it is to prove an other thing, that multitude is the beauty& the right note of the church: howe that can be proved out of this place I leave it to your better consideration, when you shal haue marked those words that do immediately go before this place. Quae autem contra mores hominum sunt flagitiapro morum diversitate vitanda sunt, vt pactum inter se civitatis aut gentis, consuetudine vel lege firmatum, nulla civis aut peregrini libidine violetur. I fear your Informer hath of purpose concealed the place, from whence he hath feche that, which he coupleth with this sentence as if it were annexed thereunto: least he should receive a wound that hardly would bee healed, where he would gladly at the least seem to give one.  
The words are directed against one man, who differeth from al that are called Christians in any place. This would help you if you had to deal against a sect that had but one patron, or against a man that would be accounted a christian, and yet for al that in doctrine bee contrary to al Christians. It is to weak to stand against a religion, that sundry countries, provinces& kingdoms do embrace. Before I had Augustine with a wrong direction, now I haue his name without any direction at al Such words as you haue set down here are found in his book contra Epistolam fundamenti, where you conceal that, 
Aug. contra epistolam fundamenti cap. 4.  which utterly overthroweth all the four notes of your church, and proveth them to be altogether insufficient to make true proof where the church is.  
These are the words that follow in that place. Apud vos autem ubi nihil horum est quod me iuuitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatis pollicitatio, quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur, vt in dubium venire non posset, praeponenda est illis rebus omnibus quibus in Catholica teneor. But among you where there is none of these things( saith Augustine:) that may hold me, there soundeth the onely promise of truth, which if it bee shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt: it is to be preferred before all those things, by which I am holden in a catholic Church. he had spoken before of unity and agreement of people, of authority begon with miracles,& increased with charity, and holy conversation, of antiquity, and succession of Bishops from Peter unto his time,& also of universality: and yet he professeth that the truth when it is made manifest and plain, is to carry us against them all. If the truth bee bound unto unity, succession,& universality, so that these be the marks whereby we are directed to the true church, and therefore to the truth, by what commission dare Augustine to put them a sunder, whom almighty God hath joined together( as you think) to continue one for ever. For if they be never sundered, why maketh he a supposell of that that never happneth, especially dealing with them, that were persuaded that it was not so strange a thing, but that it might yea and had already happened? Or why setteth he, the truth in specie, that is: The truth made open& plainly manifested: against those marks of the Church: when as the truth, whether in parables, plain speech, or howsoever, is never found sundered from them as you think? moreover why doth he trouble himself with comparing of things together, affirming that the one shall more persuade then the other: if it bee impossible for the one to persuade, but not for the other. For comparison is of those that bee like, but there is no resemblance between a thing impossible, and that which may bee done. last of all howe agree you with Augustine, that saith, The plain and undoubted truth persuadeth more than them all: When as you are of opinion, not onely that the truth can not be had plainly, but that it cannot be had at all, but in and by them. You see that Augustine in this place utterly overthroweth the marks and notes that you haue made of your Church, letting us understand that the truth may bee sundered from all, even from the succession of bishops, which you make so great an account of: that( in your opinion) heaven and earth may sooner come together, then those two bee partend and put asunder. It standeth you vpon to make this breach up again, if it possibly can be performed of you, for it hath undone al that you haue travailed in al this time to establish. It was not without cause therfore that Augustine both came in and went out so like a stranger, as no man could know( when once he had made his appearance) where too haue him again howe glad soever he would haue been, to haue spoken with him. But let it be admitted that Augustine spoken of a matter that could not come to pass, when he said, that the truth made plain and manifest, was a note of the church to be preferred before unity, succession universality &c. That which followeth will declare against whom he objecteth the name of catholic: even against those heretics, who when they would bee called catholic, yet can but show one church or one house, where their religion is professed. For these are his words. The Church alone hath so obtained the name of catholic, that where as all heretics would be called catholics, yet when a stranger shall ask where men meet at the catholic Church, none of the heretics dare show him either their Temple or their house. If england, Scotlande, denmark, Suetia, Saxony, Heluetia, Retia, Vallis Tellina, brunswick, rhine, Hessia, wittenberg, Russia, Brandeburge, with the great Cities through the whole country of Germany could show but one Church, one house,& one province or little Shire among them al, where their religion were professed, or if al these great kingdoms common wealths& countries could by some conversion bee turned into one little province, temple, or house, then might this authority, or that that followeth out of Augustine, haue some colour against vs. But since, that gospel which wee profess, at the first did spread itself abroad into infinite places, and was generally received, until the dominion of that man of sin, the Pope: under whom for a long time it was greatly darkened, and now since the late reviving again therof, hath greatly enlarged her dominion& shut you out, not of some few houses or provinces: but out of a number of kingdoms, dominions, common wealths,& countreys, daily getting ground of you( be your Tyranny and persecution never so great) your authorities out of Augustine can stand you in no steede. As concerning the latter part of your last authority, which affirmeth that the catholic church by the clearness of one faith spreadeth out itself from the East unto the West, yf it bee taken so generally as the words seem too give out of it: it pulleth clean from you your title of[ catholic]. For you can not deny but that al the greek Churchs utterly renounce the authority of the Bishop of Rome,& the Churches that are scattered here and there throughout all Asia and Africa, in like maner do not aclowledge it. As for Europe you heard me even now recite what kingdoms, common wealths and countries in it, abhorreth the Pope and all his detestable enormities. And in those kingdoms and countries where the Pope is received, this I dare say, for you do prove it by fire& faggot, that there is no country, not Italy itself excepted, where there are not great numbers of people, that from the bottom of their hartes do detest the Pope. And therefore if you measure universality by place and person, as you are wont to do: taking that to bee universal which is received in all places, and of all persons, you see that your religion cometh far short of a catholic religion. You close up three lines in the end closely together with Augustine his words, as if they were not only spoken at one time& with one mouth, but even also with one breath. whereas he hath not one such word there, it is wholly your own application and conclusion, it is none of his. If a man would take such liberty unto himself, he might soon beguile the ignorant reader. I could the better haue born this without making any mention therof, yf I had not seen the like in you before, and therfore I cannot but admonish you. This place of Augustine doth in deed make war against the Family of love, who bring in a religion that never was heard of since the beginning of the world, received publicly in any one province, or taught in any one Temple, from the beginning: As for those whom it pleaseth you to call puritans, when you tel me what grounds, of religion they hold dissenting from the truth, I will give them warning to be in a readiness to resist you. I know none in england that either would be called by that name, or deserve to bee called by it beside the Papist, and the Family of love. For the Papists are so over pure and perfect in their own iudgement, that they sell the very excrements and superfluity of their works unto others: And as for the Family of love, after that a few yeeres of their Apprentishyp be expired,& they begin to set up for themselves, they are of opinion, it is no more possible for thē afterward to sin, than is possible for light to become darkness. If those be the true marks of the church in that sense which you do take them, I see no cause why the Scribes and Pharisees, might not justly against our saviour haue claimed the title of the Church. For they were at great unity among themselves, so that their church might well haue been called Vna: And they abounded in prayer, fasting, and alms, which you do simply set down without any addition, for the fruits of holiness: and therefore their church was Sancta: moreover they sate in Moses seat, and succeeded him in the chair, and therfore they were justly entitled unto succession: and their church lawfully called Prophetica: which was the same before christ that Apostolica is now: and last of all the greater number went with them against christ, and therfore their Church was Catholica. It is manifest thē that you haue said nothing for your Church, which the scribes& pharisees might not say for themselves. And if your notes were true, christ Iesus could never haue prevailed against them, having the true notes of the church, and therfore being the true church, against the which nothing can prevail. The notes that are given by the Apostles themselves of the church, and whereby they were lead to acknowledge any people to be the church of God, were two in number: faith in Christ Iesus: and love towards his saints: according as it is written by the apostle. We give thankes unto God, 
Colloss. 1.4.  even the father of our Lord Iesus Christ, always praying for you, since wee heard of your faith in Christ Iesus, and of your love toward al Saints. It appeareth hereby, that the Apostle did acknowledge thē for members of the Church, using them as brethren in giuing thankes to God,& praying for them: after that these tokens of the church, too wit, faith in Christ Iesus,& love towards his saints, did appear in them through the preaching of the Gospel. 
Ephesi. cap. 1. ver. 15.  The same is confirmed in the Epistle to the Ephesians in the same words. Therefore after I heard of the faith which you haue in the lord Iesus, and love toward al the saints, I ceased not to give thankes for you, making mention always of you in my prayers. And not onely the same matter, but even the very same manner and form of words, is used throughout his epistles, where he hath any occasion offered to touch the same. 
1. Thes. 1.3.  As in the first epistle to the Thessalonians: and in the second also, and the first chapter. 
ad Phile. 5.  In the Epistle to Philemon. In like maner he rehearseth these same two marks: of faith in Christ Iesus, and love towards all saints. These were marks that the Apostles were directed by to discern of the church, they thought these sufficient causes to move them to think of others as their brethren, and the dear Children of God, when as they thorough the preaching of the word, were knit unto christ by faith, and unto his children that did serve him after that word, by love and sincere affection of heart and good will towards them. These marks that are noted as the tokens of GOD his children in those first and mother Churches, can not bee found with you. For the word soundeth not among you, which should discover by the sight of that which the Lord in iustice doth require, so great imperfection to be in us:& withal so much mercy to bee in Christ, for men that are confounded in themselves: as would provoke us by faith to repose ourselves vpon him and his mercies. As for the doctrine of your church, it so upholdeth the aptness add inclination of man to do well, the liberty and freedom of his will, that he cannot come to the sight and knowledge of any so great want as might send him hungerly after Christ, and his mercies, to cleave thereunto by faith: besides that, it doth so fearfully give out the affection& disposition of this our mediator, as if a man could not come to the speech of him in the least matter, before half the court of heaven were moved for that matter, in his behalf, and should befreend him therein, which turneth our affection& affiance, comfort& confidence rather toward them, then towards him. whereupon any man may clearly see and understand, that this church of yours is not knit unto Christ by faith, And howe it is affencted towards his saints who are begotten and born again by the immortal seed of the word, all the world may judge, and their blood that hath been so plentifully spilled, hath left in every kingdom and country sufficient witnesses thereof against you.   

Assertion.  
The true faith and doctrine from the beginning hath ben preserved and kept first by tradition, and then by writing and tradition, in a continual succession of bishops and Priestes: whereupon S. paul writing to the Thessalonians saith, 
●. Thes. 2.  State& tenete traditions quas didicistis, siue per sermonem, siue per epistolam nostram. Also writing to the Corinthians, wherein he reproved them for abusing of the blessed Sacrament, in the latter end he saith, Caetera autem cum venero disponam: 
1. Cor. 11.  which was never put in writing but always hath continued by tradition in the said succession unto this day, and which things are used at this day. For we do use diverse things, yea, such as are necessary and meet to be used, which the scripture maketh no mention of and also otherwise then the primitive Church did use, and now allowed of the protestantes, as the baptizing of young children, which Sacrament was not used in the primitive church but twice in the year, Easter& whitsuntide. The changing of the sabbath day, from the Saturday to the Sunday. In the primitive church they were in a council holden commanded to abstain A sanguine& suffocato, 
acts 15.  ( vt patet in acts) From the which wee are discharged not by Scripture, but onely by the authority of the Church, who saith now in the geneneral councils as the Apostles and Elders said then there, having the same holy spirit with them that they had then that is to say, Visum est spiritui sancto& nobis, That now by commandment you shal not abstain A sanguine& suffocato. For such things being not matters of faith, the Church hath authority to alter and change according to the time and disposition of the people. And also that you shal keep the Sunday for the sabbath day, and that you shal baptize children as soon as they be born &c. which things haue ben by tradition received from our elders, which is the sure rule that directeth us to truth, by the said testimony of jeremy the Prophet. viz: State supper vias, 
Iere. cap. 6.  & videte& interrogate de semitis antiquis, quae sit via bona,& ambulate in ea,& invenietis requiem animabus vestris.   

answer.  
YOu labour earnestly for succession,& therefore do give the attempt once again to prove, that true faith and doctrine hath been preserved and kept from the beginning, first by tradition,& then by writing& tradition, in a continual succession of bishops& Priestes. You allege for proof of this, that which is written by the Apostle to the Thessalonians: State& tenete traditions quas didicistis siue per sermonem siue per epistolam nostram: keep such things as you haue learned, either by our word, or by our writing: he exhorteth thē to observe whatsoever the Apostles had moved them unto, either in their sermons, or by their letters: but he promiseth not the church, that there shalbee such fidelity in all who are to succeed them, that a man may safely depend upon their words and writings: and this is the matter that you haue taken in hand to prove. If you could haue made the Apostle speak thus: Tenete traditions quas discetis siue per sermonem, siue per epistolam, non a nobis tantùm, verumetiam a succedentibus nobis Episcopis quibuscunque: It would haue made something for your succession. If you had but entred into the least consideration that possibly might bee of the matter, setting affection aside, you should soon haue discerned, that it was impossible to establish a necessity binding all times to come: by a verb that noteth only the time past: keep those things( saith the Apostle) which you haue learned. And no less absurd, to infer a succession, from words that mention those onely who are in present possession: keep those things saith he, which you haue learned of us, not that which you shal learn of our successors. I do greatly marvel that ever you could be brought to build a matter of so great importance in your iudgement, upon so feeble a foundation. For before this foundation shalbe able to beate any such weight as you haue laid upon it, these grants must freely bee given unto you. First that an exhortation to do a thing, necessary infereth that thing both to haue been done by them that were so exhorted,& by al that haue ever come after them: for vpon paul his exhortation to the Thessalonians, that they should keep such things as he had taught them either by word or writing: you gather a continual practise to haue been made of those things by them, and all that haue come after them. You might as probably reason thus, that because A Preacher once gave exhortation to his Parishioners too beware of wrath, and to maintain love and concerd: Therefore you are sure there shall never any discord be heard of in that town after that day, unto the end of the world. Secondly this must bee granted unto you also, that an exhortation made indifferently to all the faithful people of Thessalonia: commandeth a practise thereof to Byshoppes and Priestes onely. For the Apostle arming the church of Thessalonia against Antichrist his forcible delusions, which the wicked shal be given up to beleeue, because they haue refused the love of the truth: willeth not one sort of them particularly, but al of them generally, steadfastly to embrace and hold fast those instructions, which they had received from him and the Apostles, either by word or writing. Thirdly, that words spoken without any limitation at all, are onely justified in them, who do in order succeed one another: for you will haue these traditions to bee kept in a continual succession of Byshoppes and Priestes onely. Fourthly, that words mencioning things delivered, and the maner how they are delivered, do necessary infer, howe they haue and shallbee preserved: for the Apostle telleth them that they are to keep such things as haue been delivered unto them, whether it were by word or by writing: but he bindeth them not to any certain manner of keeping of thē, and much less to that manner, which he had delivered them by: as if it should bee unlawful to keep any of that in writing, for the help of their memories: which he had delivered onely in preaching. Now out of words that declare the manner of delivering, you necessary will conclude the manner of keeping. If al these things were granted unto you, you might haue some colour for that matter which you are about to prove: but as the place is of itself, I do not remember that ever I heard, so much weight to haue been laid vpon so weak a body.  
Traditions( as the Apostle speaketh of them) are delivered partly by writing, and partly by word of mouth: so that tradition is affencted towards the written word of God, as the general or universal towards his particular: you make them as two several members, one diverse from an other. Consider therefore well where you haue received this distinction, you may see that you haue it not from the Apostle, for he distinguisheth otherwise. I would willingly learn, how you can prove, that matters of faith haue been kept partly in tradition,( as you say) from the beginning. Irenaeus saith otherwise, in the first Chapter of his third book, as you heard before: 
Irenaeus.  Non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognouimus quàm per eos, per quos evangelium pervenit ad nos, quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt, postea per Dei voluntatem in scriptures nobis tradiderunt: fundamentum fidei nostrae futurum. We know not our salvation by any other, then those by whom the Gospel hath come unto us, which then they preached, and afterward by the will of God left it in writing, to be the pillar of our faith. He saith that our faith must lean vpon that which the Apostles first preached, and afterward by the will of God, left in writing: and not as you would haue it, partly vpon that, and partly vpon tradition.  
You bring another testimony out of the Epistle to the Corinthes, 
2. corinth. 2.  where the Apostle promiseth that he will order other things, when he cometh: to prove that the true faith hath been partly kept in tradition. If they bee matters of faith which the Apostle speaketh of, in that place: tell us what they bee: if they bee no matters of Faith, but outward orders, then you speak not to the matter, which you haue taken in hand. For wee deny not, but the church may order outward things, as shalbee thought most meet to edify with all.  
That the sabbath day is changed from the saturday unto sunday: that the Sacrament of baptism is more often administered thē it was in the primitive church: that we are not restrained now à suffocato& sanguine: Maketh nothing against us: who know and profess, that outward things of that nature that these bee of, may be retained or refused by the church, as they shall perceive them tend to edifying, or otherwise. look you well unto it, who are of opinion, and do profess, that the Apostles doctrine& traditions, are faithfully reserved, in a perpetual succession of bishops, and delivered from one to another. How faithfully do you reserve them, when you take liberty as you do profess, to change them? I say it standeth you vpon, to look how you change any of their traditions, who take vpon you to bee faithful reseruers of the same, and men that are put in trust to deliver them over unto their posterity. If any man shall consider advisedly, howe your proofs do confirm in this place, the matter that you haue taken in hand to prove: he shall hardly get them hang together.  
You say we are discharged of our abstinence from strangled and blood, not by Scripture: but by the authority of the church: who saith now in her general councils, as then shee did: Visum est spiritui Sancto& nobis: let me ask you this question, how it cometh to pass that of one thing, the church should say: Visum est spiritui Sancto& nobis: And again of the same thing: Non visum est spiritui Sancto,& nobis: but by the Scripture, which telleth us, that such outward things are to be done and left undone: as they shalbee thought to edify our brethren or otherwise. So that to maintain peace and amity, between the Gentiles,& the Iewes who were so persuaded of Moses lawe, it was expedient for a time during this their persuasion, that the Gentiles should abstain from their liberty: but after that the Iewes were persuaded, that the ceremonies must give place to Christ and his Gospel, it was not expedient they should abstain from their liberty any longer, neither did that rule of the Scriptures, which restraineth things lawful of themselves, unto that which is expedient: any longer bind them. The church said in that council. Visum est spiritui Sancto& nobis, ne quid amplius imponeremus vobis oneris, quàm haec necessaria: After they had debated it by the Scriptures that Moses lawe, was not necessary to be urged vpon the Gentiles: so that the reason why they say it seems good unto the holy Ghost and us, is because they had learned by the Scriptures, which are the writings of the Holy ghost: that the Gentiles were free, from the bondage of the ceremonial lawe.  
The old way that the Prophet willeth them to inquire after, is that way, which is described in his word, as appeareth in the nyententh Verse of that Chapter, which you haue alleged. If you would inquire after that way, these controversies between you and us, would soon be at an end.   

Assertion.  
Now to prove that lawful succession of bishops and Priestes ought to bee heard and followed, which is the thing that continueth the truth, which was received in the beginning, appointed by God, to continue for every age to the end of the same: I will bring forth examples out of the very Scriptures. As first: Cain ought to haue obeied Adam, to haue remained with Seth,& not to haue constituted a new company, in such sort, that there should bee one city of the children of Men, and another of the children of God. Nemrod ought to haue kept himself in the succession of Seth, continued by Noe, and not to haue made himself a Prince by force, by which occasion, the Faith began to bee abandoned. ishmael and Esau, should haue tarried in the succession, and not haue suffered their offspring the Agarenes and Edomites, to leave the old Religion of Abraham Isaac and jacob. Core, Dathan, and Abiram, should not haue forsaken, the succession of levi and of Aaron. jeroboam should not haue forsaken Moses chair.  
Manasses the brother of Iaddus, 
joseph. lib. in Antiqui. cap. 8.  should not haue forsaken the same succession, and haue gone to build a new temple, 
josep. de bello. judaico lib. 7. cap. 30.  in the mount Garrizim. Onias should not haue forsaken the known succession at jerusalem, and haue built a Temple in Egypt. The Samaritans should not haue sacrificed but only in jerusalem. Then Christ coming according to the Prophesies of the said lawe ended that succession and began a new, from the which beginning unto the end of the world, no man whatsoever he be, ought to forsake that ordinary succession that then began, but if he will do well, must keep himself therein until Christ come again. These of the primitive church, kept themselves with in the said succession, as Dionysius Saint paul his scholar, Policarpus Saint John the evangelist his scholar, Ignatius, Clemens, Irenaeus, Abdias, and diverse others. now from this succession departed martion, Arius, Eunomius, Nestorius, Pelagius, Eutiches, with many others. Then in the said continued succession followed S. basil, Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose, Chrysostome, Tertullian, Saint jerome, and many others. And from them departed jovinian, helvidius, The Donatistes with diverse others. Now we haue and do keep in still with them in that continual succession, and many hath and doth depart from us, and as Saint John saith: Ex nobis prodierunt, 
1. John. 2.  said non erant ex nobis: nam si fuissent ex nobis, permansissent vtique nobiscum. And as S. Austen witnesseth: Exire non sanae Doctrinae est. And Saint Ambrose saith: 
Ambros. hom.  Omnem legis veteris seriem, fuisse typum futuri. Wherefore as they continued in the truth, with the former principal succession, which held themselves there in the figure: so do they now in the time of grace and truth, by observing that order of succession, in the priesthood of the new lawe.   

answer.  
IF you mean by lawful succession, those who shall succeed in the principal succession: that is the succession of truth, there is no question of that, but such are to bee heard, as do bring the truth of the Apostles Doctrine with them: but if you do bind the truth to persons, who haue succeeded the Apostles in place, you know what hath been proved against this opinion before, in your third note of the church, whereunto I refer you. You never read that Cain, Nemrod, ishmael, Esau, Core, Dathan, and Abiram, professed a new religion and a diverse worship of God from the rest: the scripture chargeth them with no such matter, but with corrupt life and wicked conversation: You contend for doctrine and religion to keep that with in a succession of bishops and Priests, and to charge them who depart from that succession, with corruption in religion. To what end then serveth this number and assembly of men, corrupt in life, but not touched with heresy, unless you think that whosoever is corrupt in life, maintaineth by and by a false and corrupt religion: and maketh a public departure from the truth: either else you had been persuaded, that this number would haue made me afraid, once to haue adventured, the trial of their strengths? Let it be granted, that all these men here severally set down and noted, as departers from the true succession: haue mayteyned Idolatry, and erected a false worship of God, departing from the truth and true profession: What can you gather here vpon, but that it is not lawful to depart from those who uphold and maintain true religion? Now whether you or wee bee the maynteyners of the truth that is the controversy, and therefore you may give these men good leave to return from whence they came, for any help that you are like to haue from them. It may bee if they were better examined, that they would say and speak greatly against you: for Cain a wicked man, had noe blessing nor mercy for all his succession, albeit the birthright was his, and therfore the priesthood appertained unto him by lawful succession. ishmael the elder, and therefore a lawful successor in the priesthood, yet a wicked member, and left unto posterity no tradition but of persecution. Esau the elder and therfore in the succession of the priesthood, but yet hated of the Lord, and one who reserved few good traditions, that ever I could read of to posterity. Core, Dathan, and Abiram, of the tribe of levi, lawfully entitled unto the office of the priesthood: the traditions that are delivered unto posterity from them, are, that they were rank rebelles against the Lord, and against Moses his annoynted. Wee are ready to prove, that the evangelist noteth your church, 
1. John 2.  and that you are they who haue departed from the Apostles, and the ancient churches: and for proof of this, wee appeal not onely unto the writings of the Holy Ghost, the canonical Scriptures: but also unto that testimony, which Irenaeus before hath given of true knowledge, and of the state of the ancient church how to discern it, and by what marks: and therefore wee say with Augustine against you: Exire non est sanae Doctrinae. And yet for al that it is not simply and without respect true, for if the Doctrine bee not sound, it is as lawful to depart from it, as it is unlawful, to go from that which is good. So that to depart from any Doctrine, is not otherwise lawful or unlawful: but according as the doctrine itself is good or bad, from the which he doth depart. All of these were wicked members, and yet within the privilege of this succession, which you would make such a defence against corruption, as that a man needed not to fear any more, if once he had got that sanctuary vpon his back. moreover the greatest evils that they are blamed for in the Scriptures, we are committed of them, before they left the society of the church, and children of God: while yet they were within the succession, howsoever you would seem to persuade us, that they never departed from goodness, before they had taken their leave of succession. You affirm out of Ambrose, that the order in the old lawe, was a type and figure of that, which should bee in the truth under Christ, and therefore as the truth was joined with the succession then, so is it now: but then( say I) it was not always joined with the succession of Priestes, and therefore it is not to bee holden for a truth, that now it should bee so. And thus I prove that in the old lawe, the truth went not always with succession. In the church of Israell, the ordinare succession of Priests was interrupted and broken of, as appeareth in the first book of the kings: 
1. Reg. cap. 12.31 cap. 19.18.  and yet there was a church and great number of faithful people, that kept the purity of Doctrine, and never bowed their knees unto Baal.  
You may hereby plainly perceive, that the truth and purity of the worship of God, hath been reserved: when yet the lawful and ordinary succession of Priests failed. And the contrary is as plain also, that there hath been an ordinary and visible succession of Priestes: when notwithstanding the truth was banished,& most gross errors received. For at jerusalem in the reign of the king Achaz, there was an outward and visible succession of Priestes, yet the temple of God was shut up, and Vrias the Priest, at the commandement of the king, did publicly profane the worship of God, as appeareth 2. Chronic. cap. 28.24. and in the second book of the kings cap. 16.15.16. 
2. Chroni. 28.24. 2. Reg. 16.15.16  And in like manner at the coming of Christ, there was at jerusalem an ordinary succession, for they succeeded Moses and sate in his seat:& yet for al that, their doctrine most corrupt, and the true church warned oftentimes by our saviour Christ, to take heed of the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees, who had the ordinary succession from Moses. You may therefore plainly see, that before Christ in the old lawe, ther was purity of doctrine, without ordinary and visible succession of Priests, and likewise ordinary and outward succession, without sincerity of Doctrine.  
whereupon I do conclude with Ambrose, that because the order of the church in the old lawe, was a type of the state in the new lawe under Christ: that truth of doctrine, is not now bound to an ordinary succession of bishops. And if in the government of that people, when all things were so visible and outward, for the capacity of them,( the manner itself of worship not excepted:) there was interruption of visible and ordinary succession: and the promise of succession was justified to bee but with condition, so long as they did observe the lawe of God: howe much more in this time, when the worship of God is not so external, but inward in spirit and truth, will the lord not bee bound unto succession, when there shallbee a manifest defection, and falling away from the obedience of his word. And you can not bee ignorant, that there is in the new Testament, 
2. Thessa. 2.  a plain foretelling of a general defection, which can no more stand, with a continual ordinary succession, then can Christ with Antichrist. And least any man should imagine, that the Apostle doth but speak of some particular declining of this or that Church: the circumstances of the text, do so set it forth: as they do leave no doubt in the matter. For it is said indefinitely, that he shall sit in the temple of God,& not with any restraint, that he shall sit in this or that temple, Church or place. And also, it is said, that his coming shall be with all power, that all may receive iudgement, which haue not believed the truth: so that the iudgement is not to come particularly vpon some one particular church or place, but generally upon all that haue not believed and loved the truth. And if succession haue such privileges with it: that there is no danger of deceivable doctrine, where it can be justified to continue, why should not the greek Churches, as well be believed for the truth of their doctrine, being able to derive their succession from the Apostles, as well as you. If succession haue in it such a blessing, in spreading out itself without interruption, how happeneth it, that the Churches planted at Antioch, Ephesus, and Corinth &c. haue felt no greater benefit by it? those can truly say, that the Apostles planted them& appointed Bishops over them. If succession then be so fruitful in itself, what reason can bee rendered, why it should not take their, which may not be given in like manner, why it may likewise bee barren with you? They that shall read the Prophetes with any diligence, and conscience to bee instructed in the state of the Church before Christ, and under the law: shall soon perceive howe far it is from the truth, to take warrant from thence to bind the true faith& doctrine to a continual succession of priests. For thus saith Ierem. of the priests in his time: 
jeremy. 2.  The Priests said not: Where is the Lord?& they that should minister the lawe knew me not: the pastors also offended against me,& the Prophets prophesied in baal. Ezechiel likewise telleth us, what the Prophetes were who taught the people in his time. 
Ezech. 13.  O Israel( saith he) thy Prophetes are like Foxes in the waste places, they haue seen vanity and lying divination, saying the lord saieth it, and the lord hath not sent them, therefore thus saith the Lord, because you haue spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore behold I am against you. Letting pass the time of jeroboam, when all things were most corrupt in Religion: I will conclude with malachi, touching the ordinary state of the Priestes in his time. 
Malach. 2.  The Priestes lips( saith malachi) should preserve knowledge, and they should seek the lawe at his mouth. But ye are gone out of the way, you haue caused many to fall by the lawe, ye haue broken the covenant of levy, saith the Lord of hostes, therefore haue I also made you to bee despised, and vile before all people.  
You may see what a daungerous doctrine it is, to tie the truth unto a succession of Priests: and that if a man would so haue done under the lawe, he should haue given sentence against the Prophetes that were extraordynarily raised up, to reform both Priestes and people, with those Priestes and Prophetes, who had their office by orderly and ordinary succession & yet were seducers of the people. I do therefore conclude with Ambrose against you, seing the order and state of the old law was the type of the new:& in the old Testament, the Priests who had succession of place and function, sometime did leave the truth& embraced pestilent doctrine: that therefore succession now is no certain mark, whereby a man may always be sure to be directed unto the truth. You haue hitherto contended for a succession continual and without interruption from the Apostles, to haue remained among you, as the safest treasure house of of the truth: but this succession without interruption, you can not find as yet: I pray you give me leave in a few words to try, not whether you haue a succession with out interruption, but whether you haue any succession at all from the Apostles.  
The charge and office of the Apostles, is declared in the Gospel after saint Matthewe. 
Matth. 28.  go and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father, and the son,& the holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I haue commanded you.  
Their office consisteth in teaching and Preaching:( for they are charged to go and teach all Nations) and in administration of the Sacramentes: and least any should imagine that they are set at liberty, to teach whatsoever liked themselves: there followeth by and by a restraint in these words: Teaching them to observe whatsoever I haue commanded you: If any claim to bee their successors in that office, he must be a Teacher and Preacher unto men, not a sacrificer for them: And that which he teacheth may not bee the invention of man, but that which is commanded from God.  
They therefore do necessarily enforce upon their successors an office& ministery of Preaching and Teaching: and that of no other thing, besides the same which God hath commanded. Where their succession is there is a truth of doctrine, and a teaching ministry thereof, whereby men themselves are offered as slain sacrifices unto God: having their corrupt affections subdued& slain in them by doctrine& exhortation out of the word of god. your priests are instituted, not by preaching the word of God, to sacrifice men unto God: but by saying of certain prescript words, to sacrifice for men unto god:& to make satisfaction for their sins, committed against God. The duty required in an office being as the life thereof,& the place no other then the body: it falleth out, that all the succession which you pled for from the Apostles,( if it were granted you) yet were it no other, then the body of the Apostles succession, without either the life or spirit thereof.  
Touching your first demand, to wit, who he was that first preached that faith wc we do now profess: 
●ob. 23.  I do answer with the Apostle that it was christ Iesu. To th'other part of your demand, for the succession of bishops, to wit, who was the 1. 2.& 3. bishop, &c. I haue already answered in the 3. note of the church. where your own witnesses haue confessed, that succession of bishops is no note for us in these later times whereby to try the church. Let it I pray you be lawful to me to move one question unto you,& that is, why( seeking confirmation& testimony for religion, you let pass al those who were earewitnesses of the truth,& true religion,& had commission from the Lord himself,& confirmation of their fidelity herein, under his own hand and seal? Haue you not red thus in the 2. to the Heb. The Gospel began to be preached first by the Lord himself, 
Heb. 2.  & afterward it was confirmed unto us by those that heard him, god bearing witness unto thē, by signs& wonders,& diverse gifts of the holy Ghost? Your meaning cannot be good in omitting men so sufficiently authorised,& flying unto others as the doctors& bishops of the primitive church: who when we are come thither, do post us over again to these as the lawful& only sufficient witnesses in these doubts of religion. The common saying may be welverified of you, that you would teach us the next way about: for you sand us from the scriptures to the fathers,& when we are come to them, they send us back again to the scriptures. You haue heard already in the 3. note of the church, that they examined their succession of bishops by the scriptures, taking it therefore to be good, because their bishops warranted their expositions by scriptures,& you know what Augustine saith in this matter. Auferantur de medio quae aduersus nos invicem non ex divinis canonicis libris, 
August. de unit. ecclesi contra Petilian. ca. 3.  said aliunde recitamus, quia nolo humanis documentis, said divinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari. away with those authories that either of us allegeth against other, because I would haue the holy church to bee proved, not by the doctrines of men, 
August. aduersus Maximi. lib. 4.  but by the word of God. Augustine in like maner sendeth us from councils unto the scriptures. But now saith Augustine to Maximine an Arian, neither may I allege the council of Nice, nor you the council of Arimine to others prejudice: neither stand I bound to the authority of this, nor you to the authority of that, but by the authority of the scriptures, which are witnesses proper to neither of us, but stand indifferent to us both: Let matter be compared with matter, cause with cause,& reason with reason. If the fathers sand us from their own writings, to the scriptures: from succession, to the scriptures,& from councils, to the scriptures: why do you omit the scriptures, and sand us to succession, to fathers,& to councils? If the truth be bound to the fathers& councils, and the true sense onely there to bee found, what mean they themselves, to sand us from thence unto the scriptures? for that were to speak( as you do afterward) to feed us with the shell, and to keep from us the kernel: that is the sense and understanding of the word, which you affirm to be in their onely custody. What need we now to spend either Paper or pains about the names of those books, that all the fathers haue written in the primitive Church? You haue had a large offer by that man of famous memory Bishop jewel, to take your choice among all the learned fathers, and doctors in the Church, six hundreth yeares after Christ, for the upholding of the grounds& principal points of your religion: what you haue said for it the lord knoweth, and diverse that were before bewitched with it, begun now,( after that they see how little it is that can be said in that behalf) utterly to defy it.  
You require to know if our doctrine were the same which they in the primitive Church professed: who they were that did at that time note your going out and departure from the truth, and did inveigh and writ against it. This question is altogether unnecessary, for when an offfender is taken with the manner, it is a needless labour, to stand upon the examination of them, who were at the dead doing. Wee haue taken you with the manner, that is to say, with doctrine diverse from the Apostles: and therefore neither lawe nor conscience can force us, to examine them, who were at the deed doing, and witnesses of your first departing. You heard Tertullian before, speaking of the Churches that are far from the Apostles time, say thus: Ipsa haereticorum doctrina, cum apostles comparata, ex diversitate& contrarietate sua, pronunciabit neque Apostoli alicuius Autoris esse, neque Apostolici. The doctrine itself being compared with Apostles, will by the variety and contrariety that is in it pronounce, that neither Apostle, nor yet any apostolical man, was the author of it. This speaketh Tertullianus of those who lived long after the Apostles times, so that his iudgement is plain: you can not now haue this benefit of your clergy, the matter by the Apostle his testimony, falling cut so heinous and so apparunt against you. For your mass where one eateth and drinketh all alone, can not stand with that Doctrine, which the Apostle hath delivered: Take you, and eat you. 1. Corinthians. 11. 
1. Cor. 11.  That doctrine which extolleth the meriting of man, painting his Image rhyming and laughing at his own deserts: can not agree with that Image which the Apostle hath left of the regenerate man, wherein he is painted weeping for his want, 
Rom. 7.  and in lamentable speech crying out: Miserable man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of sin? That Doctrine which sendeth us to the succession of Bishops and Priestes, for the Key that openeth and letteth into the truth: can not agree with that, which commendeth men for examining by the scriptures, 
acts. 17.11.  the doctrine of the Apostles themselves: men as likely to teach& hold the truth, as any Bishops or Priestes since, who, or wheresoever. That doctrine which joineth saints and Angels with the lord, in that honour of calling upon them for help: can not agree with it which saith, 
Matth. 4.  Thou shalt worship the lord thy God, and him onely shalt thou serve. To conclude, that doctrine which giveth sovereign authority unto the Pope, above all Princes& Bishops wheresoever: can not agree with that charge which Christ gave unto his dicsciples, 
Matth. 20.25.  saying: Ye know that the Lords of the Gentiles haue domination over them, and they that are great exercise authority over them, but it shall not be so among you.  
It is great injury offered unto the Apostles, the lawful witnesses of the truth, authorised thereunto by the Lord himself, to imagine or give out of them, that they spoken so slenderly, either else so darkly and so doubtfully of the truth: as that heresy and error cannot sufficiently by any light which they haue given, be discerned from it: or that they left testimony behind them, sufficient to establish the truth, but not to confute falsehood: when as the Apostle saith, 
2. Tim. 3.  that the scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable to teach, and also to improve, and to correct, that the man of God may be absolute. Examine it well I pray you with yourself, what should be the cause, that you should shun as rocks, the witnesses which the lord hath appointed to speak as well against falsehood, as for the truth: being neither content with that witness which they haue born unto the truth, neither willing to stand unto that, which they haue delivered against falsehood and error. The way which you prescribe, as it is not necessary: no more can it be any safe kind of dealing. For who haue kept the register of those depositions, which men haue deposed against you? Haue not you yourselves, against whom they were uttered, had the custody of them? What fidelity then can wee imagine now likely to be remaining unto them, setting aside the power of the Lord, who can and often doth reserve, and bring light out of the midst of darkness itself? moreover, what and if they who did espy it, had no knowledge by writing, to descry it? When the Pharisees and Scribes at Christ his coming had corrupt true Religion, what books did you red were written against them, and howe able was joseph, Simeon, mary,& Anna, to perform that work? falsehood, is falsehood, albeit no man writ against it, and the truth can not but be the truth, whosoever shall writ against it. And therefore your argument for the truth, grounding vpon the not writing against it, can carry little credit with it, though it were granted, that no man hath been known to writ against it. We are not destitute of witnesses, who at the beginning haue espied the entering of your religion, and the departing from the true faith, albeit we stand unto the testimony of the Apostles, as the most sufficient and sound authority. The sixth council of Carthage, 
council. Aphric. cap. 92.  which was about the year of our Lord. 430. where August. and 216. Bishops were assembled, after that they had seen the true and authentical copies of the council of Nice falsified by Zozimus, Bonifacius, and Celestinus three Bishops of Rome, one succeeding another in order, for the supremacy of that sea: concluded with universal consent, that no authority was to bee granted unto the Pope, over Affrica, or any other foreign Churches: and this universal authority, was the mother of that universal corruption, which followed after in religion. gregory, who was Bishop of Rome, 600. yeares after Christ, writing of the Bishop of Constantinople, who would bee called universal Bishop, saith thus: In hac eius superbia, 
Lib. 4. epist. 34.  quid aliud nisi propinqua iam esse Antichristi tempora designatur, qui illum videlicet imitatur, qui spretis in sociali gaudio Angelorum legionibus, ad culmen conatus est singularitatis erumpere, dicens supra astra coeli exaltabo solium meum? In this his pride( meaning the Bishop of Constantinople, who claimed supremacy) what other thing is declared, but that the time of Antichrist is at hand, which followeth him, who despising the equal& felowlike ioy of the angels went about to aspire unto the top of singularity, saying: I will exalt my seat above the stars. You see if we had not taken you with the manner, yet had there been sufficient help from witnesses, who were at the deade doing, to haue convict you. You would know what became of that Church a thousand yeares next after the primitive Church, and where shee kept all that time. It was six hundreth yeares after Christ, before the Pope had his universal title, and supreme authority over all Churches: and sometime you cannot deny, but that he must of necessity haue, to take away the word of God, from the common& known tongue of the people, that his traditions might haue entrance without any contradiction, and men bee brought to occupy themselves in them, as in the chief and principal works of christianity. It was 800. yeares after Christ before the knowledge of the latin tongue, which was their mother tongue, did altogether decay among the common people, in italy, france, spain, and britain: As for the greek Church, shee never received the latin tongue, neither yet the Churches in Asia, and Ethiopia, all which time the Pope could not bring in the depth of his deceivable and damnable doctrine, the candle of God his word, shining out in their known tongue unto all people, and therefore he was not as yet come unto the height of his iniquity. And in the year of our lord 1240. many preachers in high germany, did freely preach against the Pope, and his doctrine, affirming the Pope to be an heretic, his doctrine damnable, and that if they had not come, the Lord would haue raised some out of the stones, who should haue preached the truth unto his Church: and this was done publicly the Belles ringing out unto the Sermons. Crantzius, 
In Metro. Cra● lib. 8. cap. 18.  a man who greatly favoured the Pope, and vehemently inueyed against those preachers, saith thus of them: Quidā pulsatis campanis,& conuocatis baronibus terrarum, in Vallis Sueuiae, sic feruntur praedicasse in publica statione: quòd Papa esset haereticus, omnes episcopi& praelati simoniaci,& haeretici: Item quòd fratres praedicatores& minores peruerterent ecclesiam falsis praedicationibus, & {quod} omnes illi fratres prauam vitam ducerent,& iniustam: praedicauerunt( inquiunt) ad hoc tempus praedicatores nostri,& sepelierunt veritatem,& promulgarunt falsitatem: nos veritatem praedicamus& sepelimus falsitatem, indulgentiam quam damus vobis, non damus fictam, vel compositam ab Apostolico, vel episcopis said à solo deo. This I speak because in your accounts how long time the Church was obscured, you multiply much more then ever you can bee able to prove. But let it be granted, that there was no truth of doctrine taught by them that had the government,& were the guides of the people, the Bishops and Prelates, by the space of one thousand yeares: yet might there be a Church, whereunto a man might resort,& tel her of his brother who had offended him. For at the coming of Christ, the Scribes& pharisees had the government, who were blind guides, and painted sepulchres, yet was there a Church& number of chosen people of God, who lived in those times of darkness,& under government: as joseph, Mary, Simeon& Anna, &c. being the true& faithful seruants of god. And our saviour Christ, speaking of the shepherds and guides of that time that went before him saith, 
John. 10.8.  that they were theeues& murtherers: but the sheep heard them not: meaning that those who were his sheep, were kept in that blind& wicked government, by his wonderful providence from the infection of their doctrine. You heard also before, that in Ieroboams time, and afterwards, when the priests were blind guides,& religion was most corrupt, even then the lord had thousands: that never bowed their knees to Baal. There had he his Church,& therefore all things that are of necessity required( so as without thē it can be no longer any Church) were there to be heard. There was such light of life& conversation, as did clearly shine& give light to choose that were in the house,& church of God: albeit jesabel and her court could see no such matter, no more then you can perceive any good example among those, who haue given lands and possessions, goods& lives, for the honor of God, in the cause& quarrel of his truth. Ther might any of the church being offended with his brother, haue admonished him by himself,& afterward haue taken one or two with him, and if those could not prevail, he might haue  told it to those number that kept together, and were known among themselves to join together, in the true worship of God. 
Heiron. in Mat. cap. 18.  And this is that which is required in this place of Matthew, as jerome declareth. Which all may bee performed, notwithstanding the ordinary government of the Church, be under the enemies of the Church: and was practised in the late dayes of queen mary here in England: true doctrine preached, discipline exercised, and yet the government in your hands, that were utter enemies unto it. If you say further, that the Church after Christ, is not to bee compared with the Church before Christ, because it hath more promises, and therefore take exception against my examples in times before christ: when the Church was kept under blind guides: I answer, that for the visible apparance& government of it, in that place where it was: the Church since Christ had never such promises, as the Church before had:& I will be ready at all times to prove it against you. Now if you will urge necessary a visible and ordinary authority& government of Bishops and ministers of the word of God, who shall haue and carry the face and countenance of the Church, where and in what place soever there is a Church: then how dare you say, that there is a Church and number of men of your religion here in England, seeing the authority and government is out of your hands? When any of you shall offend in adultery or otherwise, as some of you haue done, who among you do present the matter? To what court do you go? Where sitteth your official or commissary? Where are your Sacraments administered, and your Masses celebrated? wee know not the place who do live with you, and haue the government in our hands, yet is it not unlikely but that you haue such meetings,& never one of you, but knoweth where to haue your Sacraments administered, and your discipline used. And if this may be done by you, and yet we haue the ordinary government of the church in our hands: so in like maner might there be in former times, the exercises of true religion practised in sundry places, and yet you notwithstanding, haue the ordinary jurisdiction and government, and carry all the outward countenance of the Church with you in those times. If you say( as you do in deed) how can then his promise be performed, who saith that he will be with thē unto the end of the world? I answer, well enough: for can not the lord be with his Church, unless he keep them still in the possession of their Bishopriks& benefice, so that they carry the countenance and government with them. The promise to be with them, infereth not necessary the maner howe he will be with them, and much less doth it infer this certain maner, that they shall always bee sure to haue the chief government, and keep the keys in their hand. To answer you then in few words, where the Church was while you had the government( setting aside the greek Churches, and others, who never from Christ unto this day acknowledged the Pope) I answer, it was in italy, france, spain, and england, &c. because there shall be a Temple of God, where Antichrist shall sit, and they shall bee holy places, where the abomination of desolation shall stand: for Antichrist shal not make an utter spoil and havoc of the Church of Christ.  
You require why you should beleeue the iudgement of the learned in these daies upon the Scriptures, rather then the iudgement of the holy Fathers, long before us in time, and also in learning, virtue, and perfection of life: especially being assembled in general councils: I answer, if you mean by holy Fathers those who lived 500. yeares after Christ, you cannot prove that in the principal points of Religion, they taught or had any other iudgement of Scriptures, then we haue, neither can you prove, that their fruits of obedience, differed from the fruits of sundry in these times, otherwise then that in one and the same gift, one may haue a greater measure and portion thereof, then another. But admit they were contrary unto us in the exposition of Scriptures, and far beyond us in learning and perfection( as you call it of life: yet may neither their learning nor their life, warrant us that their expositions and judgements vpon the scriptures, are without any further trial to be admitted and allowed. For proof whereof I had rather you should hear August. his words, then mine own. Thus speaketh he of this matter. 
August. epist. 18.  Alios ita lego, vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant, non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt: said quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos, vel probabiliratione, quod à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerint. Augustine will haue no man carry matters of Religion away, under learning or holinesse of life, further then he can make good his iudgement by the canonical scriptures. And you haue heard before, that fathers haue sent us from their own private iudgement: and from their councils and common judgements in public assemblies: unto the scriptures, as unto a more sure and certain rule.  
Your next demand is the same in effect with these,& therfore one answer may suffice both. For if those holy fathers assembled in a council, haue established any thing against the truth, as some haue done,& been controlled of those councils that followed, thē should he that followed them, haue learned more to the doctrine of men, then an other man, who following his own iudgement, had joined with the scriptures, and yet disagreed from all of them.  
You demand a reason why you should beleeue M. calvin and those that are of his iudgement, rather then M. Luther and those who embrace his iudgement: the one being as well learned as the other: claiming the spirit of God, aswell as the other: as able to confere places of Scripture together, and to judge thereof, as the other: I answer, that touching the matter of controversy between them, you should rather beleeue him then the other, who justifieth his opinion by the Scriptures, better then the other: As for their habilitie we are to measure it by the effect, and therefore to judge and affirm that he who doth more aptly and truly confer places of Scripture together, indeed is more able thereunto. If you would gather here vpon, that conferring of places together in Scripture, is not the right way to come to true knowledge, and so consequently to agreement in the truth, when men are at variance, because these two using this conference of scriptures haue not for all that agreed about the meaning of some scriptures: then I answer, that the leaning unto the judgements of the doctors and the fathers, is not the best way in controversies to fall unto agreement, and to find out the truth: because jerome& Augustine, contending about a place of scripture in the Epistle to the Galathians, 
August. Epist. 19  can not agree whether Paul did truly& justly reprove Peter, or that he did but dissemble a reprehending of him. jerom alleged for his exposition, the iudgement of seven writers, to wit, Ladodicenus, Alexander, Origen, Didimus, Eusebius, Theodorus, and joannes Bishop of Constantinople. Augustine alleged for the warrant of his exposition, onely Ambrose and Cyprian.  
now if because master Luther and master calvin can not agree upon the true meaning of one place of Scripture, by conferring of Scriptures, you will therefore reject the Scriptures, as no sufficient means to come to the knowledge of the truth, or to decide controversies in religion by them by the same reason a man may reject the authority of the fathers, because jerome& Augustine proceeding by their judgements to find out the truth, haue not for all that fallen unto an agreement, but remained stil divided in opinion touching the true meaning of that place. And by the same reason likewise, a man may reject councils, as not sufficient to dicide controversies in Religion,& to bring men to knowledge of the truth, because you, Thomists contending with your Scotistes, 
Lo. vives in Aug. de civi. Dei. Cap. 26.  whether the Virgin Mary were conceived in sin or no, could not be brought to agreement by the authority of the council of Basil, alleged by the Scotists for the defence of their opinion, and making so plain for them, as possibly could be expressed.  
To conclude this matter, if you would haue a reason why master Luther and master calvin by conferring of Scriptures do not yet for all that agree upon the Exposition of some Scripture, this may be rendered: the lord will not be bound to reveal all truth, unto all of his servants: but will haue great gifts and graces, not to bee without some want either in knowledge, or otherwise: that wee should not think of men, above that which is meet, but that he who will glory may glory in the Lord.  
You demand whether it bee meet for all men to judge vpon the Scriptures: I answer, it is meet for all the children of God, to haue knowledge and iudgement in the word of God, and by it to discern between light and darkness, good and evil: for it is written in the Gospel after Saint John, 
John. 20.4.  that the sheep and flock of christ will follow the true Sheepehearde, because they know his voice, but will not follow a stranger, because they know not the voice of a stranger. If they had no discretion nor iudgement in the word, why should they not as readily follow the voice of a stranger and aclowledge it, as the voice of the true shepherd. And if they be not meet to judge vpon the Scriptures, then are they as meet to follow the voice of a stranger, as the voice of the true shepherd: yet the scripture saith, that they will not follow the voice of a stranger, because they know it not. One thing that moveth you to think that all men are not meet to judge of the scriptures, is, because S. Peter saith, that his brother paul writeth many things hard to be vnderstod, which the unlearned& unstable do pervert, as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction. This place telleth us, that the ungodly are not meet to judge of the scriptures. For he speaketh of such unlearned, as are with al unstable and ungodly, who receive no more harm by those hard matters, that are handled in the scriptures, then by the most plain& easiest points of all. For he saith that they do pervert the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction as well as those. So that the danger is in the man, and not in the scripture: unless peradventure you think, that through out all the scripture there is great difficulty& hardenesse for any man to conceive, a right iudgement thereof. Which opinion the whole Scriptures do directly stand against, for thus do we read in the proverbs: 
prou. 8.  All the words of my mouth are righteous, there is no frowardness in thē, they are all plain to him that will understand,& strait to them that would find knowledge. And likewise in the 2. 
Prou. 2.  Chap. of the same book it is written thus: If thou callest after knowledge,& criest for understanding, if thou seekest her as silver,& searchest for her, as for treasures, thē shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord,& find the knowledge of God. And paul affirmeth such clearness to be in the gospel, 
2. Cor. 4.  that he is not affcaid to say, if it be yet hide from them, the god of this world hath blinded their minds and closed up their eyes: as if otherwise it were impossible for so great& clear light as that is, not to show itself manifest& evident unto them. To return again unto the place, you say that Paul writeth many things hard to be understood, which is not so, for he speaketh but of some things. The speech of perverting doth clear the matter itself from all suspicion,& doth charge peruerter only. The unlearned also challenged not simply in the respect, but with addition of instability& ungodliness joined thereunto, Which the unlearned ( saith the Apostle) & unstable do pervert: doth not foretell us of danger to any other vnlerned, thē those who as they are unlearned, so likewise are they unstable& ungodly withal. Last of all the admonition that followeth persuading not to haue no dealing with the scriptures, as matters that were so hard, as that they could not be understood: but to take heed that they be not plucked away by the error of the wicked& fall from their own steadfastness: declareth that the whole danger is in the persons,& not in the scriptures. And no marvel if the wicked peruertthe scriptures from their true meaning: for as no man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man, wc is within him, 
1. Cor. 2.12.  even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God, which the ungodly are destitute off. But those that are the children of God, as Paul witnesseth haue received spirit of God, whereby they know the things that are given thē of God. For the spirit searcheth all things, yea even the deep things of God. An other thing that maketh you think, that al men are not meet to judge of the scriptures, is as you say, for that when certain would necessary haue urged circumcision,& Moses law vpon the Gentiles, the Apostles& elders meet together to consider of this matter, so that you gather hereupon, it belongeth onely unto the Church assembled together in a council, to judge of matters of faith and religion, and the rest always bound without any question of the matter, to obey. It is a very slender argument to say, the church assembled together doth give iudgement of matters of faith& religion that be in controversy:& therefore the true members of that Church, are not meet to discern of the scriptures, neither can truly discern of those controversies. You might as well say, that the man who hath seen with his eyes a thief stealing, and hath taken him with the manner, cannot for all that truly discern, whether it be theft and he a thief or no: because the Country meeteth afterward at the assizes, to try the matter. paul and Barnabas knew the truth of the matter and disputed against them, that would necessarylie urge Moses lawe: before the Apostles and Elders did meet about it. They were of the same iudgement before, that they were after, as it appeareth in the same chapter, albeit they thought men would bee better satisfied, if the authority& sentence of the church were had therein, and therfore went they not as doubting of the truth in themselves, but as persuading others of that which they know was truth. I do marvel that you dare say that those men, who urged Moses law,& said to the Gentiles, Except ye be circumcised after the maner of Moses, ye cannot bee saved: had more Scriptures to allege for them, then the Apostles and Elders had, because the new law was then unwritten? What one place of Scripture can you bring, not only that the Gentiles, but that the Iewes themselves, to whom the law was given, could not haue been saved: yf they had immediately after christ his ascention, left of Circumcision and the ceremonial lawe? The necessity of the ceremonial lawe did not lie upon the Iewes after christ, the usage of it for a time, was but for the weakness of some,& that ceremonies appointed of the lord, might as( Augustine saith) not without honour bee had unto the grave. You say also with like untruth of speech, that they as iudges without Scriptures, ordered this matter: when as it appeareth plainly in that same Chapter, that Saint james proveth the calling of the Gentiles, out of the Prophet Amos, and thereupon concludeth, that seeing they were turned unto God without Moses law, they not observing it, they were not now necessary to be troubled with it. making the lord his dealing in showing mercy upon them, and turning them unto him, when as yet they were without it: as a sufficient reason to induce them, that they were not to bee troubled with it, and much less under pain of damnation too bee bound to the observation thereof.  
You require who were iudges of matters of faith and religion, the Scriptures, or men, from Adam to Moses, and so 800 yeeres after christ his ascention. I do answer that men did judge of matters of faith and religion, but not otherwise then by the Scriptures: and as they were directed from them, as wee read in the 17 of Deuteronomy: And thou shalt come unto the Priestes of the levites& unto the judge that shal be in those daies, and ask, and they shal show thee the sentence of iudgement, and thou shalt do according to the thing that they of that place shal show thee, according too the law which they shal teach thee. So that you may see they haue no absolute authoriritie, to enjoin any thing unto the people which is not according to the lawe: in as much as it is said, according to the lawe which they shall teach thee, thou shalt do. which thing yet is better explained in Deuteronmy cap. 24. Take heed of the plague of leprosy, that you observe diligently, and do according too all that the Priestes of the levites shall teach thee, take heed ye do as I command them. The Priestes therefore may lay no more upon the people then they had in commandment from the lord. You may well perceive then that before Christ, men did judge according too the Scripture, and as they were directed by it. You are greatly deceived therfore imagining the scripture to be but a dead word until a man come& judge of it: for it hath a certain truth in it, from the which if any man should serve in iudgement, yet should it remain true al the notwithstanding: And if any should join in iudgement with the true meaning of it, yet should he add nothing to the truth thereof, which is the life of the word. For the word is the living voice, and that which giveth life and authority unto the other, even as it falleth out in civil matters, that the iudges in all courts are lead by the lawe, what to think and pronounce of the matter that is brought before them: and if they shal give sentence contrary to law, it shal not excuse them that they were iudges: but contrariwise, being charged that they haue dealt corruptly in any sentence, this shal clear them, yf they can truly say that they haue done nothing but according to law,& that which the law will bear them in. You say that out of the Church, every man is a liar: in the Church, the spirit of god and not man iudgeth, who was promised to led her into al truth. The Apostle speaking to the church, saith that every man is a liar,& therefore no man is to be believed for this cause only, because he is of the church, for the true Church is known to be the true Church, because she speaketh not of herself but hath the word to testify of her. You remember what Chrysostome hath said before: Ex quo non legit haec scripta, said a seipso loquitur, 
Chrisost. de sancto et adorando spiritu.  manifestum est, quód non habet spiritum sanctum.  
To your demand requiring the name of our Church, because al sects say they be of the Church of Christ: I do answer, that their saying so without any further proof, may not be prejudicial to us herein who say no more then we are well able to prove.  
To your demand requiring what general councils our church hath holden: I answer, 
August. in Iohhn. tract. 13.  that I would not refuse to satisfy your request herein, if either the church might not be a true church, and yet hold no general councils: or a false church were cleared it should fall out by good proof, that she had holden any general councils.  
To your demand what miracles haue ben wrought by her: I answer with Augustine, Contra mirabiliarios cautum me fecit Deus meus, dicendo in nouissimis diebus exurgent Pseudoprophetae, facientes signa& portenta, ut inducant in errorem, si fieri posset, etiam electos. My God( saith Augustine) hath armed me against those miracle makers: when he saith that in the latter dayes, false Prophetes shall arise, doing signs& wonders, to deceive if it were possible even the very elect.  
To your demand of what church this church of ours received the Scriptures, and what just cause she had to depart from that Church, of whom she received the said Scriptures, and why he should not receive as well at her hands the understanding of the said Scriptures, as the very Scriptures themselves,& what more certainly she hath of the truth of the one, then of the other: I do answer, that she received the scriptures of your church,& the same cause to depart from you, that Mary; Elizabeth, Simeon, joseph,& Anna, with others had to depart from the Scribes and Pharisees, of whom they received the scriptures,& yet leaving them embraced Christ& his doctrine. And she had also the same cause that they had, why she should not receive the understanding of the Scriptures from them, of whom she received the scriptures themselves. For they refused the expositions and glosses of the scribes& pharisees, albeit they received the Scriptures from them. She had likewise greater certainty( even as they had,) why she should be persuaded that you had corrupt the sense& meaning, rather then the word and text itself, for they doubted not of the word and text, that they received from the Pharisees and yet for all that rejected their expositions, as contrary to the truth of that text, which they had delivered unto them.  
To your last demand requiring to know whether there was ever from the beginning an external Priesthood,& whether that external Priesthood had not always an external sacrifice: I answer no, referring you for proof hereof unto the x. 
Heb. 10.  chap. of the hebrews, where it is thus written. Sacrifice& offering, burnt offerings, and sin offerings thou wouldest not haue: then said he, lo I came to do thy will O God; he taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified, even by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once made. For with one offering hath he consecrated for ever, them that are sanctified. now where remission of these things is, there is no more offering for sin, These be the words of the Apostle, Whereby you may plainly discern, that the external Sacrifice and offering from sin, ceased in our saviour christ, as in him, who by that one oblation made once for all, did fully discharge the sins of his servants.    

❧ Imprinted in London at the three Cranes in the Vinetree by Thomas Dawson for Richard Sergier.