SOPHRONISTES.  
A Dialogue, persuading the people to reverence and attend the ordinance of God, in the ministery of their own pastors.  
Imprinted at London by Thomas Orwin, for Thomas Man.  
1589.   

The pastor and the flock, and how strait and fast coniunction is between them.  Sophronius. Arizelus. 
YOnder cometh my good friend and neighbour Arizelus with his wife and family: they haue been at some sermon this morning, for being the sabbath of the Lord, he would not for his piety and zeal be otherwise occupied. Though it be the manner of over many that know not the things that belong to their peace: rather to spend the sabbath in vain, unprofitably and some also; lewd and sinful practises: than to frequent the places where God is worshipped: and themselves might be edified unto salvation. But because he absenteth himself from his own Pastor, and followeth a strange ministry, I will assay, if I may reform him in this point: wherein in mine opinion, very many, partly of ignorance,& partly of an excess of zeal, do greatly and gréeuouslie offend. I will therefore expect his approaching, that I may salute him, and enter some conference with him: for he is not of that sort that will hearken to no persuasion, but wilfully follow their own fantasies. God give you good morrow neighbour Arizelus.  Arize. 
And you also good Master Sophronius.  Sophr. 
As I saw you coming towards me, I marveled somewhat at your hast: and haue stayed for you, to know the cause thereof: as also of that cheerfulness which is in you, more than ordinary.  Ari. 
I haue been at the Sermon of Master Eulalus, who of late began to preach beyond the river, a godly, learned, and zealous man as I haue known.  Soph. 
I know him well, and I am glad that that place which was wont to be destitute of all teaching, is now so well and fruitefullie furnished.  Ari. 
He had occasion this morning to be somewhat longer than ordinarily he useth to be: and this is the cause of my hast, that when we haue dined, wee may return in good time to the afternoon exercise: for my cheerfulness, which you say is more than ordinary, I must needs confess it is from the blessing of God vpon me by his ministry this day, in the excellent things he delivered unto the auditory.  Sophr. 
I conjectured so much of myself, before you spake, for the good opinion I justly haue conceived of you, but it doth me more good to haue heard it from your own mouth.  Ari. 
I thank you sir most heartily, and much more than if you had reioyced with me, for some great gain in outward things. For as my benefit herein is much greater; so is your rejoicing in my behalf, a more sure testimony of your godly and christian love towards me.  Sophr. 
You take it well, and as you should: for if it be a grateful and acceptable thing to worldly men, that their worldly friends should rejoice with them in their worldly prosperity, it is much more dutiful in the children of God to rejoice one with another in their spiritual profitings. But there is some thing concerning this matter, whereof I would gladly confer with you: but I will not hinder you in this hast.  Ari. 
I will stay withyou a while if you please, or if you will go with me to the sermon after dinner, I may by the way understand your mind.  Sophr. 
The matter requireth some longer time, and for my going with you I would not refuse, were it not that at the same hour our own Pastor Master Timotheus will according to his custom bee occupied in the catechism, with whose sermon in the forenoon I was so well satisfied for mine instruction and edifying, as I mean not to leave him in the afternoon for any other.  Ari. 
O sir if you had heard this other man, you would haue said there had been a great difference. And for my parte I desire to hear those by whom I am most edified.  Sophr. 
That is the special point whereof I would willingly confer with you: for I haue now along time observed your absence from our assembly. But because this is no time to enter into so long a discourse, you shall now depart unto your own house, and when the afternoon sermon is done, which I guess will be about three of the clock: if it please you to meet with me at my garden which lieth in your way, I will attend you there. And further I most heartily pray you and your good wife, to take parte of my poor supper. Your cheer shall be mean, but your welcome I assure you shall be of the best.  Ari. 
I thank you sir with all my heart, more for the conference you haue promised, than for the rest: though I must needs take in good part your so loving and gentle invitation. I will therefore for this time take my leave, and meet you at the hour and place appointed, by Gods grace.  Eutich. 
Who is at the gate?  Ari. 
A friend: I pray you open the door. Is your Master come as yet?  Eutich. 
He is come even a little before you, and commanded me to attend your coming to let you in.  Ari. 
Tell me I pray you, where is your Master that we may go unto him?  Eutich. 
He is walking with my Mistris in the further side of the garden. I will shut the door and bring you thether.  Ari. 
do so my good youth.  Sophr. 
This is well that you are come so timely, and more than I looked for, considering Master Eulalus was so long in the forenoon.  Ari. 
His pains were so great then, that he was constrained now somewhat to favour himself: albeit I promise you, he made a most excellent sermon.  Sophr. 
I doubt nothing thereof; and it both seemed, and was the more excellent unto you, because you heard him with reverence and attention, for want whereof, many loose the fruit of the greatest graces of God. But you and my good neighbour are both most heartily welcome to this place: and I thank you for this pains.  Ari. 
Sir it is your great courtesy to ascribe that unto us which is your own. But since it pleaseth you so, I will not contend with you; the rather that the time may suffice to your promised conference with me.  Sophr. 
You say well, and I accord thereunto, as to the principal cause of our meeting at this time. Therefore we will crave pardon of our wives that they would solace themselves as pleaseth them for a while, and after they may bee partakers of that wee shall conclude. You and I will sit or walk in this long arbour until supper time: for you Gentlewomen, give us leave a little with your favour to that we haue in hand. Neighbour Arizelus, I joyed not a little in the forenoon to see you so cheerfully return from hearing of the word of God: which was unto mean undoubted testimony of the great love and ●avour of God towards you. But there is one thing whereat I do not a little marvel, that you should so greatly rejoice in the gifts of a stranger,& take so little comfort and delight in his ministery whom the Lord especially hath addicted unto you.  Ari. 
I told you sir in the morning, that in my iudgment there is no comparison between the men. And of this I am sure, that haning seldom or never heard our own pastor with any fruit, I haue received great profit and comfort by this man.  Sophr. 
The question is not whose gifts are more excellent, but by whose hand the Lord himself doth offer us mercy in the gospel of his son Iesus Christ. Whereupon also dependeth the promise of certain and sound edifieng.  Ari. 
Are you then mind that wee may hear none but our own Pastors?  Sophr. 
Not so, for the Apostle saith, we may prove 
1. Thess. 5. 21.  all spirits: and for mine own part( as you well know) I here also many others. But this is my meaning, that in the times of our own assemblies, I would not willingly be absent from thence: where my presence is especially required.  Ari. 
What if our Pastors were unapt to teach?  Sophr. 
I am then of mind, as in the case of the poor and nedie of this world, that wanting food at home, they may lawfully ask and take relief abroad wheresoever the Lord shall offer them mercy. But I hope you will think it a great shane for rich men, and such as are competentlie provided for, to beg their bread.  Ari. 
I think so, but this case differeth far from ours.  Sophr. 
Not so much perhaps as seemeth to you at this first sight.  Ari. 
Why so?  Soph. 
Is not the same God the father of our spirits, who hath given us these bodies, and the life whereby they live.  Ari. 
No doubt?  Soph. 
Is it not the same God vpon whom we depend, as well for the feeding of our souls, as for the nourishment of our bodies?  Ari. 
I grant, for as in this outward life, man liveth not by bread onely: but by every word that proceedeth 
Deut 8. 2.  out of the mouth of God, so in our spiritual estate, I know and aclowledge it to be true, that the Apostle 
1. Cor. chap. 3. 6.  saith Paul planteth, and Apollo watereth, but it is God alone that giveth the increase.  Soph. 
You say well: How shall we then refuse the providence of God in feeding of our souls: when wee submit ourselves thereunto, in the nourishment of our bodies.  Ari. 
This is obscure, I pray you speak it more plainly for my understanding.  Sophr. 
I marvel you should not understand this, but I will endeavour to express my mind more fully and plainly if I can. God, who as you haue already granted, is the Author of this body& this life: is he also that distributeth the good things belonging to the relief and comfort of life, according to his own good pleasure: and hath commanded every man to eat his own bread, and drink the water of his own cistern: contenting 
Pro. cha. 5. 15.  himself with his own estate appoynted of the lord, not envying or affecting that which in more abundance is granted unto an other.  Ari. 
It seemeth reasonable that you say: for no man may bee his own carver in these outward things, but thankefullie and patiently content himself with his own mediocrity, and not break the bounds which the Lord himself hath set, and not man.  Sophr. 
So it is, and that men the better be contained within this compass of the providence of almighty God: we see how mercifully the Lord dealeth with those of the lower and poorer sort: that having little and almost nothing in comparison of others, and being charged with children and family far beyond them: they are yet both themselves and theirs as healthful and strong in body, and every way as well graced in their outward persons,( and more also many times) as they which all confess, as many as know any thing.  Sophr. 
If the Pastor must feed his own flock, and that because the Lord hath appointed unto him to break unto them the bread of life: tell me( I pray you) how are not the people likewise bound to submit themselves unto his ministery: and to receive their food at his hand, whom God hath commanded to feed them? And how do they not withdraw themselves from the hand of the Lord, that withdraw themselves from the hand of their ministers? and consequently deprive themselves of that lawful and just means which God hath given them for their salvation?  Ari. 
Your conclusion is very peremptory, and rather forceth my iudgement, than leadeth mine affection.  Sophr. 
I think so; and I am persuaded that many of your mind, do rather offend of an excess of zeal, then of any ground of knowledge. But you should remember 
Rom. 10. 2.  that zeal without knowledge maketh us many times not to obey God. Who yet ought to bee the subject and end of all our zeal.  Ari. 
So saith S. Paul of the Iewes: but how doth that belong unto this cause?  Sophr. 
I will tell you in a word. And I trust you will hear it patiently and take it in good part; whilst in an ignorant zeal you run after strangers, presuming without ground or warrant of the word, to be more edified by their ministery, than by the ministery of your own Pastor, you prefer your own fantasy before the ordinance and commandement of God.  Ari. 
How so? I do not yet see so much.  Sophr. 
It happeneth unto many that their own presumptions do so blind them, that they cannot see the things which are most plain and palpable.  Ari. 
You deal hardly with me, but say on.  Sophr. 
I prayed you of patience before: but I will crave no favour unless I prove that which I affirm: it is the first step unto health to know our disease. Tel me I pray you, is not the Pastor commanded to feed his flock,& that of God; with promise of a blessing vpon his labours.  Ari. 
No doubt.  Sophr. 
Tell me also in the presence of God, without all respect of men( for I am here more afraid of your affection, than of your iudgement) is not the people likewise commanded and that of God himself, to take the bread of life at the hand of their Pastor; with promise of blessing by his ministery unto salvation?  Ari. 
I did not think the people so bound unto their Pastor, as the Pastor is bound unto his people. I desire to be further satisfied in this point.  Sophr. 
To whom God commandeth any man to speak, do you not think them bound to hear him that speaketh?  Ari. 
Yes, but GOD speaketh by all into whose 
2. Cor. 5. 19, 20.  mouths he hath put the word of reconciliation.  Sophr. 
I grant, but doth he speak by every pastor unto all churches, or to every church by her own Pastor?  Ari. 
To every church principally by her own Pastor.  Sophr. 
I am glad you confess so much, though you might haue gon further without danger. I infer thē vpon your grant, that if God offer to teach every assembly principally as you say by their own minister, then every people must principally seek to be taught by their own Minister and not by others.  Ari. 
I see not how I may avoid the necessity of this conclusion.  Sophr. 
It can by no means be avoided without manifest controlling both of the wisdom& goodness of God.  Ari. 
How so?  Sophr. 
God is not onely the author of the ministry, but also the addresser and disposer of the several labours of his seruants. And therfore what injury is done unto the ordinance of God▪ by the Minister that refuseth to teach those unto whom he is particularly sent: the same injury is done unto his providence, by those of the people that refuse to be taught by him whom the Lord hath expressly sent unto them, and unto whose ministry he hath subjecteth them. And for the goodness of God, as the cause thereof is in him onely and not in us: so it is utterly no reason we should ourselves make choice of the means or of the men, by whom the same should be brought unto us, rather than with all thankfulness, humility and reverence to receive the same at the hands of those by whom it pleaseth his majesty to sand& offer the same.  Ari. 
My iudgement yeeldeth to that you say; but my heart and affection doth yet strive against it. I pray you therefore with patience suffer me yet further to object unto you the causes, why I cannot so fully and wholly agree unto you.  Soph. 
The judgements of men if they bee not malititiously obstinate and wilfully strive against the truth, may bee informed or forced by weight of argument, and necessity of conclusion, as I perceive in yourself: but the hearts and affections of men cannot be wrought vpon, nor overruled but by the only hand of God. Yet hoping that the Lord who hath blessed our conference for the one, will also bless our endeavour for the other; I will not refuse to satisfy you, as I may, in all your objections, referring you further to those, who both for their callings and gifts are better furnished to this purpose.  Ari. 
I thank you right heartily, and I am persuaded much more of your sufficiency hereunto than before, and trust also that he that blessed you in the one will also bless you in the other. And therefore I will open unto you my whole hart, requiring your faithful counsel for my direction, and silence for my credit amongst the godly.  Sophr. 
For counsel I can promise you no more than I haue received, wherein persuade yourself, I will not be wanting unto you: for silence, I will bee faithful unto you, as it may any way concern your credit. But I am persuaded when you shall see the depth of this error, and the subtlety of this delusion, you will willingly aclowledge your own abuse in this matter, for the reformation of others, and think it your greatest credite both with God and with his Church, to bewray in your own example the frawde of our common adversary, and the power of this delusion.  Ari. 
I will( I promise you by Gods grace) refuse to do nothing, which may either get honor unto God, disadvantage unto the adversary, or profit unto Gods children.  Sophr. 
You shall do well in so doing. Let us therefore proceed.  Ari. 
I haue promised to be plain and open in all things, and I take it to be the best& safest course, for so I shall least abuse your friendship, or deceive myself.  Sophr. 
So it is, and I for my part will deal as plainly with you. I pray you therefore say on.  Ari. 
Our Pastor M. Timotheus I haue always esteemed and known to be a right honest and godly man, and one that walketh blameless with his people. I also aclowledge his learning and understanding in holy things to be sufficient for mine instruction. he wanteth not also a plain and easy kind of utterance, near unto the mean and weak capacity of the multitude: yet not to dissemble with you( according to my promise) I never delighted in his ministery, nor took myself any thing edified thereby.  Sophr. 
I grant this might easily happen unto you, partly from your own corruption, and partly from the fraud of the adversary. And to speak first of your delight, I marvel not a little that any man savouring the things of God,& which belong unto salvation, should hear thē without delight, considering that the Apostle crieth out 
Rom. 10. 15.  from the words of the Prophet in the person of the faithful, O how beautiful are the feet of those that bring unto us the glad tidings of peace, the glad tidings of good things: and that it happeneth many times even 
Math. 13. 20.  to the reprobate themselves to receive the word with ioy, which yet bringeth forth in them no constant and found fruit.  Ari. 
So it is as you say. Yet I confess how it hath fared with me.  Sophr. 
You dare not say but that his doctrine hath been always sound and true, taken out of the pure fountains of the holy and heavenly word of God, and that his care hath been sincerely to preach unto us Christ Iesus, and him crucified?  Ari. 
I must needs give him that testimony.  Sophr. 
If then the doctrine taught be the doctrine of God, and the same worthy wherein both men and Angells should rejoice, the cause of your vnchearefulnes and not rejoicing must needs be in yourself, and not in him.  Ari. 
Yet his ministry was always dead and without spirit in mine ears.  Sophr. 
It happened unto you which is ordinary in those that are distempered in their bodily health, who not only distaste, but also reject the best and most wholesome meats that be offered unto them.  Ari. 
I know this by mine own experience. But is there any such distemper in the mind, as is in the body?  Sophr. 
No doubt, and you may likewise learn the same by your own experience. For what can be the cause that the most joyful and glad tidings of the gospel should be unsavoury and loathsome unto you, were there not some evil humour in your mind, which so oppresseth your appetite and delight in heavenly things?  Ari. 
I delight in them I thank God, when I hear them of those whom I like.  Sophr. 
It is not then the things themselves which are always the same in the mouths of all Gods faithful ministers: but either the outward gifts and graces of the man, or your partial( I had almost said your perverse) affection towards the one, and against the other.  Ari. 
I haue resolved to take any thing well at your hands, for that I am persuaded of your unfeigned good meaning towards me.  Sophr. 
The Lord our God who knoweth all secrets, shall be witness unto me hereof. But partly my grief, and partly want of iudgement in many that are overborne of their own fantasies, causeth me for their good to speak sometime more sharply than I would. Tell me I pray you as you will answer it before the Lord, haue you heard of your new teacher any point of doctrine concerning faith or manners, which you haue not heard handled at one time or an other by our own Pastor?  Ari. 
I can not say it to say truly that he teacheth any other or new doctrine, but that which I haue heard oftentimes before, both of our own Pastor, and of others; for I aclowledge in all of them one spirit of truth, and an unity in verity. But the handling is all, wherein this man passeth all that I haue heard.  Soph. 
It seemeth you are of mind as they be that like no meate but of one mans dressing. Remember you not 
provver. 27. 7.  the saying of Salomon, That to the hungry appetite, even sour things are sweet, but the full stomach loatheth the very hony comb? Is not this to receive the 
jac. 2. 1.  word of God with respect of persons, contrary to the rule of the Apostle?  Ari. 
It is not the man but his gifts, which I admire.  Sophr. 
Those are accidental, and not of the substance of the ministry; for God giveth unto every one as pleaseth him. Since then God hath not given one measure of gifts, and grace of utterance unto all, it is best and safest for us to look directly unto the Lord, by whom they are sent: and to that which is necessary in all, and common unto all, soundness of Doctrine, and wholesome exhortation.  Ari. 
But is it not lawful where more gifts of God are, to commend them more?  Soph. 
Yes, we may praise God for all his benefits, and according to the multitude and greatness of them. But let us beware of that whereof S. paul admonisheth 
1. Cor. 4. 6.  the Corinthians, that we be not puffed up for one, against an other.  Ari. 
I remember the words very well, but I pray you make the meaning of them yet more plain unto me.  Sophr. 
I will tell you what I haue both heard and red of them. That it is a great offence to conceive over highly even of the most excellent seruants of God, as if 
1. Cor. 3. 5, 7.  paul were any thing, or apollo any thing, but God who giveth the increase. For who was paul, or who was apollo, but the Ministers by whom they believed? Secondly, that this ouerwening of some, worketh a dislike and contempt of others, who are no less the Ministers of Christ than they, whom they do admire. Whose discredit in their ministry redoundeth unto him that said, He that contemneth you, contemneth 
Luk. 10. 16.  me.  Ari. 
God be merciful unto me. If this be true, then haue I greatly offended, and to confess the truth. I haue not only misliked, but in my hart despised and disdained our own shepherd in comparison of the other; such was my most ungodly partiality, and respect of men, rather than of God.  Sophr. 
I am right glad and humbly thank the Lord for it, to hear you of this mind. I would the same persuasion were received of all. God should haue more honor in his seruants, and they more comfort in their labours, than now is given them of many.  Ari. 
I will from henceforth by Gods grace moderate this overweening and delight. Yet I must needs say that I haue profited more in a short time by this man, than in long time and many yeares by the other.  Sophr. 
What if you be also deceived in this.  Ari. 
You haue so forcibly overruled my delight, as I will not refuse to be examined of you likewise in this point of my profiting.  Sophr. 
And I am content to adventure my labour, leaving the blessing unto GOD. You know before M. Timotheus came unto us, we were always under an vnteaching ministry, and that at his coming there was not in any of us almost any true knowledge of God, and of his son Iesus Christ; for mine own part I must needs confess it of myself.  Ari. 
I will also willingly join with you in the same confession.  Sophr. 
You see I haue been no great straggler abroad( though I haue not unwillingly heard any) but haue constantly and continually frequented the Sermons and other exercises of our own Pastor. Yet my profiting I thank God hath been such through his blessing, as I need neither to fear, nor to be ashamed to confess it; and you yourself haue in this our conference, had some trial thereof.  Ari. 
I always knew you diligent, but I had not thought you could by that means haue attained to so sound knowledge. Now I see and aclowledge mine own ignorance in comparison of your measure.  Sophr. 
I humbly and thankfully aclowledge the blessing of God vpon me in his own ordinance: and I praise his holy name for the faithfulness and diligence of mine own Pastor, of whom, as from the mouth of God, I haue learned whatsoever I haue learned. I will therefore be bold to reason with you on this sort. Your capacity if it be not better, is at the least equal with mine. By what means then came it to pass, that you should not equally profit under the same ministery?  Ari. 
I see your meaning; it is too clear, and to commend our Minister, and to lay the whole fault upon mine own negligence and untowardness.  Sophr. 
I durst not myself haue concluded so hardly against you: yet pardon me, if I had rather lay the fault where it is, then where it is not. But what if your profiting haue been more by the ministery of your own shepherd, than you haue hitherto for lack of thanckfulnes, and due consideration of Gods mercy towards you, sufficiently considered.  Ari. 
Can a man profit by him whom he misliketh?  Sophr. 
But if it be so, you will then confess that the work of the Lord in you hath been more miraculous and more merciful, in that it is done both without and against yourself.  Ari. 
I will willingly confess it, if you can prove it unto me.  Sophr. 
Haue you not heard& known that men walking in the sun, though they haue neither thought nor meant any such thing, yet haue been coloured and swarted by the same?  Ari. 
I know it well. But what is this to your purpose?  Sophr. 
very much: for in like manner though you haue heard our Minister negligently, and to say more, contemptuouslie also: yet hath the Lord shewed you this mercy, that you haue nevertheless greatly profited under his ministery.  Ari. 
That is the thing in question, which I require to be proved.  Sophr. 
I will prove it by your own confession.  Ari. 
It were strange you should do so, but I pray you proceed.  Sophr. 
You confessed with me even now, that before his coming unto us you were as well as I, and others merely ignorant of God and of his truth.  Ari. 
That I say again, I cannot deny it.  Sophr. 
It is not many yeares nor very many moneths since you were acquainted with this new ministry.  Ari. 
You say true.  Sophr. 
You confessed also, that you never heard him teach any new point of doctrine, or propound any new exhortation which you had not heard often and many times of your own Pastor before. Is it not then manifest that the knowledge you haue, whatsoever it is, you had it by the ministry of our own pastor, and not by any other?  Ari. 
I must needs yield unto the force of your argument, and therefore I will from hence forth confess that his ministery hath been profitable unto me, though I haue not discerned it. Yet the power of the word I felt not before I had heard this other man.  Sophr. 
The seed is sown by the séedes-man in his time; the growth and fruit is reserved to another season, according to the saying of the Apostle: The husband 
jac. 5. 7.  man looketh for the first and latter rain, yet is not the labour of the sour unprofitable, because the fruit cometh not until the harvest. So that your new schoolmaster was not the beginner of this work, but rather a waterer and furtherer of the same, and vpon the matter, he hath entered vpon the labour of another, and reaped that, 
joh. 4. 37, 38.  another man hath sown, and consequently is the last and least in this work, even as he that watereth is less than he that planteth. But take heed least that wherein you most rejoice, be not sound.  Ari. 
What mean you thereby?  Sophr. 
It is an usual deceit, of the adversary to give us a kind of contentment and rejoicing also in that which is extraordinary, to nourish us stil in the contempt of that which is ordinary.  Ari. 
I know not yet what you mean.  Sophr. 
Albeit I doubt not but GOD of his great goodness towards you having begotten you by the ministery of one, hath brought you forth by the ministry of another; sown the good seed of his gospel in your heart by one, and watered the same by another: yet I know there are many that having contemned the good hand of the Lord in the ministery of those that are sent unto them, do nourish themselves in a vain opinion of great fruit, where in deed it is very little or none at all.  Ari. 
How may that appear?  Sophr. 
First, because they grow still more and more in contempt of the ordinance of God especially directed unto them: and now not onely not love nor reverence their own Ministers, but also hate and detest them, yea conceive and speak all evil of them without cause. Secondly if it happen that by any means they be deprived or barred of that ministery wherein they rejoice, and triumph against their own: they are so far preiudicated in their own conceit, as they had rather deprive themselves of all means, than to return to the use of those, which before they contemned. Whereof it many times cometh to pass, that they are made a fit pray for the Brownists, Anabaptists, or the family of love.  Ari. 
It were a dangerous thing to fall so far●e; yet I fear me it is too true that you say; that some haue gon from their own to others, and from them to none at all, or to such, as haue carried them into most strange and dangerous opinions. But whereof I pray you cometh this?  Sophr. 
Of an intolerable pride of mind, in which they persuade themselves they are wiser than their teachers. Yea I haue with mine own ears heard some of thē say▪ that they would not doubt if they were in the pulpit, to make a better sermon than their own Pastors.  Ari. 
Let us leave these, and return again from whence we came. Yet I haue greatly profited by master Eulalus, if not in knowledge, which you haue copelled me to confess, yet in affection and in the use of that which I knew before.  Sophr. 
What hundred, that from whom you received the beginning and foundation in the knowledge of holy things, from him you should not receive the proceeding and fruit of the same?  Ari. 
I know not.  Soph. 
Neither can I give you any other reason therof, but on the one side your own negligence& contempt which might worthily haue barred you of the whole as well as of part, if the Lord had not shewed you great mercy: on the other side the unspeakable goodness of God, that wherein you deserved punishment, therein yet you should receive a blessing at his hand.  Ari. 
So it is as you say, and now that God hath opened mine eyes to see mine error, I will by his grace amend it. But since you haue brought me home to mine own Pastor, is it your meaning at once to bar me of the use of all other mens gifts?  Sophr. 
Nothing less.  Ari. 
How then?  Sophr. 
That you wait vpon the Lord in a continual and constant attendance vpon the ministery of your own Pastor: and for others, that you use them as extraordinary means sent of God, not to hinder but to help and strengthen his ordinance, for that which is extraordinary is hurtful, unless it work to the confirming and strengthening of that which is ordinary.  Ari. 
How so?  Sophr. 
I will show it you by a very apt and fit similitude, which sometime I heard from our own preacher, as he complained of the fondness& vanity of some, which enamoured with other mens gifts, despised the ordinance of God in their lawful and ordinary teachers. There is( said he) nothing more to be wished in the care of this life than that being always of sound& perfect health, we may without dislike, and with a sober and moderate delight, both use and enjoy the good blessings of God ordained for our nourishment. But because it many times falleth out, partly from our own disorder of life, partly from some outward occasion, that we are distempered and amnoyed in the estate of our health, so as we distaste and loathe all our ordinary and wholesome nourishments: it is a second and the same no small favour from the Lord, that we may here use the help of physic in things that are extraordinary. Yet no man useth physic unto that end, that he may always after live from the Apothecaries shop: but that correcting from thence the distemper of his body, he may afterwards with new and fresh appetite return to his ordinary and natural diet.  Ari. 
How do you apply this similtude to our cause?  Sophr. 
Thus: It happeneth unto us often times that as the Children of Israel contemned and loathed Manna, 
Numb. 21.  which at the first they admired and wondered at: so we receiving the word in the ordinary ministery therof with some ioy and gladness in the beginning, do afterwards grow full and satiated therewith, even unto loathing and contempt, as they did. If here the Lord to cure this malady in his children, shall raise up any man in his Church with extraordinary gifts, and thereby quicken& refresh their dull and dead appetite, his meaning is not to hold them always in this new diet, that they should taste and savour nothing else, but this rare& unwonted provision: but that being by this means cured of their former disease, they should after return with more and better appetite, to their ordinary& usual manner of feeding. Which thing wee see to come to pass in those that are bodily sick, that when they haue recovered their health they become exceeding hungry, and find their appetite doubled and treble in them.  Ari. 
Now I see the end of this comparison: that all extraordinary helps sent of God should minister and serve unto that which is ordinary; and if they do not, wee abuse them to our hurt, and not use them to our good: so that you tel me, the new& great delight I take in the ministery of yonder man, will do me harm& no good, unless I use it as a means to make me with more delight& profit to attend the labours of our own pastor  Sophr. 
You haue hit it right. And that you may the rather be confirmed in this; I will propound unto you a case of experience, which once I heard of a godly and learned Preacher of the country. It was so that sundry Churches there being furnished with able and learned Ministers, and some also with men of great& excellent gifts: there came by occasion into the country, a man of no very great learning, but of a sweet and delicate speech, who by his eloquence and some novelty in the maner of teaching, so drew the people after him, as now the ordinary teachers in al places were of many of their people so far contemned& despised, as they would even vpon the sabbath day travail 4. 6. or 10. miles to hear this stranger,& not vouchsafe to come out of their doors to hear their own pastors. This preacher not being so discreet as he should haue been, entertained the people in this folly for a time;& being afterward withdrawn from thē, left the people in opinion, that now they were deprived of al means to do them good. It pleased God that shortly after there should come into the same country another preacher of great learning, godliness& zeal and of singular wisdom for the right managing of his ministery to the profit of the people.  Ari. 
I expect the end of this mans labours.  Sophr. 
I will tell you as briefly as I can. The people thought that GOD had sent them a notable supply of their former want, and in great multitudes from all places resorted unto his sermons. When he saw the flocking and thronging of the people after him, and that no place was sufficient to receive the number that followed him, considering that many of them of his own knowledge had Pastors of their own, both able in gifts and faithful for their piety to teach the truth of God: he began to aduise by what means he might best remedy this evil, and in the end resolved to use the short time of his abode in that place, to that purpose. From that time he so laboured with the people for the love and liking of their own Pastors, plainly noting and proving unto them their former vanity, as unto this day the fruit of his labours is extant in those places, both in raising up the heads of the Pastors discouraged, and in the love and diligence of the people towards their ministery.  Ari. 
A notable cure of a most dangerous disease. I would to GOD wee had some such physicians amongst us, for I now more& more see it to be most necessary in this general disease of the multitude.  Sophr. 
I also pray the same, and hope that the Lord in good time will show mercy unto his people in this city, and so much the more, for that this folly is now grown amongst us unto the full,& the inconvenience thereof beginneth more to appear than ever heretofore, and many of the wiser sort of the people are greatly grieved and offended at it. For mine own part I confess, I haue seen it often with grief, that strangers even of mean gifts in comparison, haue been followed with such numbers, as the place hath not been able to contain the multitude, when others whose ministery is constant and ordinary, were almost destitute and forsaken of their auditories.  Ari. 
Seeing we haue proceeded thus far in this argument, let me I pray obtain this favor at your hands, briefly to remember unto me the reasons for which we should attend our own Pastors, and not follow the novelty of strange teachers.  Sophr. 
I will not refuse to take any pains that you may be settled in this persuasion: that when you haue reaped the fruit and comfort thereof, you may be an author and counsellor of the same unto others.  Ari. 
I mean by Gods grace so to do, and therefore I desire to bee thoroughly grounded in the reasons thereof.  Sophr. 
You are persuaded I trust that there is nothing more necessary, nor more dutiful in the children of GOD, than that for all his goodness towards them, they should worship and serve him according to his word.  Ari. 
That I am: especially seeing the Prophet david findeth nothing to render unto the Lord for all his mercies, but onely to take the cup of salvation, 
Psal. 116. 13.  and to praise his holy name.  Sophr. 
What think you of the place wherein wee 
Of the place of worship.  are to worship and serve the Lord our God.  Ari. 
That( as the Apostle saith) men may now 
1. Tim. 2. 8.  since the coming of Christ, in al places lift up pure hands unto God without wrath and doubtfulness.  Sophr. 
You haue fitly alleged the words of S. paul, But consider with me a little how far they do extend. It cannot bee denied but the spiritual worship of God, because it is an action of the mind, oftentimes separated from the action of the body, may at all times and in all places bee offered up unto his majesty. Also our private exercises of Gods worship are not fixed or tied to any place, but wee may wheresoever and whensoever opportunity shalbe offered and wee shal be moved thereunto, perform this part of honor unto him. But what think you of the public and solemn worship of God in the assembly of his Saincts? I speak not now of extraordinary occasions of travail and journey, or the like, but of our constant and perpetual serving of God in the congregation of his people.  Ari. 
I had rather hear your iudgement, than use mine own conjecture in this case. Yet I am persuaded that public things should be done publicly.  Sophr. 
You then mislike those which withdraw themselves from the assembly, and draw the public exercises of religion into their private houses, when they might with small pains join themselves with the rest of their brethren.  Ari. 
I utterly mislike them for many causes. First, they make the public things of the Lord private, contrary to their ordinance and institution; as the papists were wont to haue priests in their houses to sing mass &c. unto them at home. Secondly, they rend themselves from the holy assembly, whereof the holy men of God haue made so great and so high account. Thirdly, 
Psal. 84.  they refuse to worship God, there, where especially he requireth to be worshipped. Fourthly, they grieve the minds of the godly,& offend the weak Christian. finally the faithful want the fruit and comfort of their company, and example in the service of God.  Sophr. 
I am glad you are so well furnished in so good a cause, some of these arguments will serve our turn afterwards to another purpose. But to come again to the public place of the worship of God, do you think the same to be fixed and certain unto us, as it was unto the Iewes under the law, who might offer sacrifices no where else but at jerusalem, and in the temple there?  Ari. 
Not so, for Mount Sion is now every where, 
Esa. 2. 3.  wheresoever the name of God is truly called vpon by his people.  Sophr. 
But I demand whether if the peace of the Church do so permit, there may not and ought not to be a certain and fixed place for the assembly unto the public exercise of Religion.  Ari. 
You mean not to make Religion of the place as under the Law, contrary to the saying of Christ to the Woman of Samaria in the fourth of John, That the time was then come, that the true worshippers of God, should neither worship in jerusalem, nor in mount Gerazim. 
John. 4▪ 21.   Sophr. 
I hold no Religion of one place, but of a place. God commanded the Iewes to worship at jerusalem, and therefore they might not for any cause remove the worship of God from thence, unto any other place. We may worship God every where, that is, in all Countreyes, Regions, and places of the world. Yet must it needs bee, that wee worship him some where, and not uncertainly and indefinitely every where.  Ari. 
God under the Law appointed the place himself where his name should dwell, which might not afterwards be altered by man as you said before▪ But now he hath assigned us no place.  Sophr. 
Yet the public worship of God even from his own ordinance, draweth with it the necessity of a place, the appointment whereof for the particular, being left unto the wisdom of the Church, when it is once thereby assigned, then I say it ought to be unto us for the time as mount Sion: and as Mount Sion was called holy unto the Lord and unto his people, not for itself, but for the presence and beauty of God, appearing there unto his church as the Prophet saieth: so 
Psal. 27. 4.  are the places of our assemblies holy unto GOD, and unto us, not for themselves, but because all the holy things of God are there presented and distributed unto vs.  Ari. 
I understand your meaning to be this, that the place itself being by nature and liberty indifferent, being once chosen to be the seat of the service of God, is now no more indifferent unto us, but wee are bound thereunto by the authority of the Church, but much more for that the name of GOD is now there, and the holy ordinances of GOD which do testify his presence in his church, do worthily make the place for the time and for the use no less holy unto us, than was the temple of jerusalem unto the Iewes.  Sophr. 
You understand me well. Here I pray you remember that which I said and proved in the beginning, that God himself hath ordained, not onely that assemblies should be gathered unto his name, but also that the same should bee divided and distinguished aptly and fitly for the meeting and edifying of his people. And therefore I am of mind for our congregations as they are now amongst us, that some for their smallness both in number and of maintenance should be united, and some again for their greatness and confusion of multitude should be divided, but this onely by the way.  Ari. 
It is true you say, for even in this city I know some Parishes so great and populous, that some ten of the rest will not amount unto their greatness, but let this pass at this time.  Sophr. 
I say then, as every one in the civil estate knoweth his own city, and unto what government both he and his whole house doth belong: so it ought to be in the Church, that every particular Christian should bee annexed unto one certain assembly, and be there enrolled as a member of that society to live under the ministery and government thereof, and not to remove or withdraw himself for any cause, unless the necessity of his estate do require his transplanting from one assembly to another.  Ari. 
I cannot take you so hardelie, as to think you would become a patron of an unlearned and unpreaching ministery.  Sophr. 
I haue avoyded that suspicion before. But if you will, wee will speak somewhat of our insufficient ministery afterward. Now let us follow that which we haue in hand.  Ari. 
I will not fail to put you in mind of this promise: for there are many difficulties about this point. Proceed as you think good.  Sophr. 
Now that I haue evicted the necessity of one certain place unto every assembly for the public worship of GOD, and that every member of the same assembly must seek the Lord and serve him in the place appoynted for that purpose; it followeth by just consequence of reason, that whom the Lord hath set over that assembly for doctrine and admonition, wherein especially he is honoured of us, from him in no sort we may withdraw ourselves, unless wee will refuse the Lord to bee our lawgiver, and disdain to learn at the mouth of him, whom his majesty hath set over us for that service.  Ari. 
The sum of your discourse hitherto is thus much, that wee must worship God where he hath appoynted us, and learn of him from those whom he hath commanded to teach vs.  Sophr. 
You haue gathered it truly. And for the last, if God haue put into their mouths the word of reconciliation, to say unto us in the name of the Lord bee ye reconciled 
2. Cor 5. 15.  unto God, and haue made them ambassadors for his name sake: who is he that shall overrule the ordinance and counsel of God, or refuse to submit himself unto his most holy and merciful assignment? Our own profit and edifying leadeth us unto the selfsame conclusion: for where shall wee rather hope to receive good, than under that ministery which the Lord hath set over us? And from whom shall we rather hope and expect the blessing of God, than from him whose labours he hath promised to bless, and under whom the blessing is promised unto ourselves. For seeing our salvation is from God, there is no reason we should rather choose from whose hands wee would receive it, than humbly and thankfullie accept it from him by whom it pleaseth the Lord to offer it. Call to mind in this place the saying of the Apostle to the Hebrewes. Be obedient unto 
Heb. 13. 17.  your leaders, and submit yourselves unto them.  Ari. 
I understand the necessity and force of this conclusion.  Sophr. 
Yet mark the reason that followeth in the same place: for they watch for your souls, as they that shall render an account. Vpon these words I infer thus much, that if they watch for our souls, wee should also wait vpon the voice of these watchmen, whom the Lord hath charged with us for salvation. And if they must render an account for our souls, must not we also render an account of their labours bestowed vpon us:  Ari. 
I agree also unto this.  Sophr. 
It followeth, That they may do it with joy, and not with mourning.  Ari. 
What do you observe vpon these words?  Sophr. 
That it is the duty of the people of God, by their obedience unto the gospel of Christ in the ministery of their own Pastors, to give the seruants of God all comfort and cause of rejoicing in their labours, and to beware they procure not their tears, as which the Apostle saith, shall not be profitable unto them. every man desireth the comfort of his travails. How much more the Minister of God, who is the Lords husbandman to till and sow in the field of the Lords husbandry, 
joh. 4. 35.  that both he that planteth and he that watreth may rejoice.  Ari. 
You draw then an other argument from the comfort and encouragement of the Minister.  Sophr. 
True. And thereunto I add that of the Lord unto Ezekiel, that whether they hear, or they hear not, 
Ezek. 2. 7.  yet let them know that the word of the Lord is come unto them: which as the Apostle saith, is evermore a sweet savour unto God, whether it be of life unto life in 
2. Cor 2. 15, 16.  those that do receive it, or of death unto death, in those that do reject it.  Ari. 
This is an hard conclusion; but it must needs stand, because it is from God himself. Is there yet any more?  Sophr. 
The Minister of God in our absence wanteth the assistance of our prayers unto the Lord for him in his ministery, which wee see the Apostles themselves craved most earnestly, even when they were elsewhere employed. 
Ephe. 6. 19.  he wanteth the countenance, comfort and encouragement of our presence for himself; and the hope of the benefit of our example unto others. For if it bee true that Salomon saith. As iron is sharpened with iron, 
provver. 27. 17.  so the face of a friend sharpeneth a man; me thinketh there should be an especial effect and grace thereof in the presence of the people before their Pastor. moreover, the neglect of our own ministery offereth just occasion of grief unto our godly neighbours, whilst their consciences do condemn us in that which we follow. Now you know that we are to labour for a good report even from 
1. Thes. 4. 12.  those which are without, how much more from those that are within? Then also wee cause to stagger those that bee weak, who seeing us to neglect the ordinances of God, are nourished unto the same contempt. Lastly, where we ought to walk profitably towards those that are without, we do by this means further estrange thē from religion,& are rather bars& impediments unto thē, than helps and furtherances to bring them unto God.  Ari. 
You haue spoken sufficiently of the duty we owe unto our own Pastors, tell me now likewise of those that are not our own.  Sophr. 
I haue said we may use their ministery in times convenient with the cautions before mentioned. But let it also be provided, that we do not confirm by our example others that look vpon us, in the contempt of their own Ministers. Besides by this means it cometh to pass many times through our inconsiderate zeal, that we intercept injuriously the bread of life, from those to whom especially it is commanded to be broken. This seemeth nothing unto many, but in my iudgement it is no small offence: for if I may not covet my neighbours wife, &c. how can I justify the taking away of that which importeth him more than all the things of this life? which is this day done of many, who in the rashness of their zeal thrust themselves into the places of those which are the proper& natural members of that assembly. To say nothing of that injury which we would not suffer in worldly things: in that we feed ourselves at other mens cost, and suffer them not to enjoy the fruit of their own expense. Thus f●rre haue I laboured to satisfy you in this matter.  Ari. 
I require no more, it is enough that you haue said to this purpose: and I hope I am furnished sufficiently both for mine own stay and direction, and also for the instruction of others. If I fail or doubt in any thing, I will be bold to trouble you.  Sophr. 
It shall be no trouble to me to do you good: and to perform the duty I owe unto you. And therefore you shall always find me ready and willing to satisfy you, as the Lord shall make me able.  Ari. 
I humbly thank the Lord for his mercy, and you for your kindness towards me. You haue forced me by weight of argument to attend mine own Pastor, I haue signified unto you, that hitherto I haue been barred from the fruit of his ministry, I pray you therefore declare unto me how I may carry myself to receive fruit, whence before in mine opinion I received none.  Sophr. 
I haue in part confuted that opinion already, if you remember what hath passed between us, both by instance in yourself, and by my poor example. But you propound a very necessary thing to bee well examined: and therefore if you think good wee will dwell vpon it a little; for as I think it necessary men should be persuaded 
How to hear aright.  to hear, and directed whom to hear; so I think it no less necessary they bee taught how to hear, considering that our saviour Christ after he had expounded the parable of the sour and the seed, in the end concludeth with this admonition unto all: take heed how you hear. 
Luk. 8. 18.   Ari. 
I am glad I haue offered you this occasion, for me thinketh it promiseth some good instruction.  Sophr. 
There are some that present themselves unto the ministery of the word for fashion, for company, and for custom, whose fault is palpable and more gross than that I need to confute it. Others there are who think it enough to be present, howsoever they bee occupied in the mean time: some by exercise of their private devotion.  Ari. 
How mean you that?  Sophr. 
My meaning is, that the public actions of the church must be publicly attended of all the assembly, and that there is here neither time nor place unto any thing that is private. For the Minister is always either the mouth of God to speak unto us from him, or the mouth of the congregation to speak unto the lord for us; or the action is common to the whole Church.  Ari. 
You mislike then in the assembly, that in the time of public prayer, preaching, sacraments or singing of psalms, any one should occupy themselves in private reading, prayer or meditation, and not join themselves in mind& in action with those, with whom they haue joined themselves in bodily presence.  Sophr. 
I utterly mislike it, as a manifest contempt of the ordinance of GOD, and a dividing of themselves with disdain from the communion of his saincts.  Ari. 
But you think it profitable to use our books for our better help to profit by the word red or preached.  Sophr. 
So it is, onely if it bind us nearer unto the public action of the Church, and carry us not away from the same. Otherwise it were better for the time, we occupied our ears than our eyes.  Ari. 
What is your opinion of those that think it enough to hear now and then.  Sophr. 
I think of those as of treuants in school, that their dalliance will leave them little fruit in the end, unless it be to make them more without all excuse.  Ari. 
What is then your aduise?  Sophr. 
That wee hear constantly and continually, which hath this fruit that the former hearers do deprive themselves of; that where the word is continually preached and interpnted out of some ordinary text, there they do better conceive the coherencie and knitting together of the word; a good help for the increase of sounder understanding.  Ari. 
Is that enough?  Sophr. 
No, there must bee also a diligent care and endeavour to profit.  Ari. 
What do you require thereunto?  Sophr. 
Preparation before wee hear: presence of mind and attention in our hearing; meditation& practise after we haue heard.  Ari. 
How may wee be fitly prepared to hear the 
Preparation.  word?  Sophr. 
First, we must cast away all prejudice and partiality, which I tell you, are great lets unto many, and make their hearing unprofitable. Then turning our eyes from m, we mu●● let ourselves in the presence of God, with whom especially we haue to do in this action: for which cause the ministery of the word, is called the face 
Mala. 42. ●.  or image of God, also his mouth& oracle in the Church.  Ari. 
do you require this in a learned hearer as well as in the unlearned?  Sophr. 
No less in the one than in the other. For as much as all here are disciples unto God,& not to man.  Ari. 
But can he that hath more learning profit by him that hath less?  Sophr. 
No doubt.  Ari. 
How may that be?  Sophr. 
Many ways, even in that wherein you would least think, as in knowledge itself. For the Lord speaking in the mouth of his minister, many times teacheth the wise by the simplo,& the great learned man, by him that is far inferior unto himself; as I haue heard diuers confess. And we read that Christ himself was often present at the sermons of John: the Prophets disdained not the ministery of the Priestes, but were 
Hag. 2. 11, 12.  content to learn the lawe of them. The Doctors of the Church hear their Pastors. This the Lord doth both for his own honour, and to humble the highest men withall: for there is no learning so great in any man, that can free him from the necessity of hearing the word.  Ari. 
What more?  Sophr. 
Faith is not only a knowledge of the doctrine of salvation, but also an applying of the same unto our own particular. Now the ministery of the gospel as it first begetteth faith in the hearts of men, so doth it afterwards nourish and increase the same by the ordinance of God.  Ari. 
I see manifestly the truth of this. And I remember S. paul saith, that he hoped to profit by 
Rom. 1. 12.  the romans, as they should by him.  Sophr. 
There is a necessary use of the ministery unto all, even for remembrance, wherein how 〈◇〉 wee fail all, I trust you will confess.  Ari. 
I subscribe also unto this, the rather for the experience I haue of mine own forgetfulness: for which cause amongst other as I take it, the Apostle said unto the Philippians; It was profitable for thē 
Philip. 3. 1.  he should often writ unto them the same things, and it should not be grievous unto him so to do.  Sophr. 
The place is fitly alleged to this purpose. And if the Minister of God must not think much to do it,& that without loathsomeness, how shall not the people think it necessary& profitable for themselves to hear it? But to let this pass, what think you of zeal unto Gods glory, love of his truth, study of righteousness, strength against sin in all the temptations thereof, comfort in afflictions, confirmation and defence against all error and heresy, charity towards our neighbours; haue they not need of continual help and increase from the ordinance of God?  Ari. 
No doubt, unless men bee ignorant of the corruption of nature, their own weakness, the subtlety, power, and malice of the adversary.  Sophr. 
Besides all this, let it bee considered, that the use of the ministery is not more for the instructing, confirming, and increasing of iudgement, than for the ordering, ruling and managing of our affections, and belongeth as well unto the heart, as to the head: and so much the more, because Salomon saith, above all keepings 
provver. 4. 21▪ 23.  keep thine heart.  Ari. 
What is further required unto preparation?  Sophr. 
That wee come not onely with religion and reverence unto God and his word, but also with hearts humbled and ready to receive what shall be faithfully delivered, and to bee affencted according to the occasion offered, whether it be of ioy, grief, fear, hope, or whatsoever.  Ari. 
How may these things be obtained?  Sophr. 
Not otherwise than by prayer unto the Lord, for the assistance of his holy spirit, and by diligent and painful labouring with our own hearts. And thus much for our own preparation.  Ari. 
I perceive it is not so easy a thing to hear aright and with profit, as the World thinketh. In hearing you require presence of mind, and attention to that is taught.  Sophr. 
The first against the roving and wandring cogitations of mans heart, which for humane unconstancy and lenity of mind, often times carry us from the best things: also against those deceits whereof we heard before, of entertaining any other action or meditation of piety, that might withdraw us from the present occasion and duty required. Lastly against that weariness and yrcksomnes of hearing, whereby it happeneth that we are as men set vpon thorns, impatient, discontent, and angry that we are detained from that we more desire, which oftentimes appeareth in our hast to bee gone, whilst wee abide not the prayer after the Sermon, much less the psalm and blessing in the end, which yet 
Deu. 27. 9. 12.  I think to bee a necessary part of the Ministers duty, and with al reverence and humility to be attended of the people, as pronounced out of the mouth of GOD himself. The second, to teach us according to the greatness of the grace offered unto us, and of our necessity to receive the same; with all care, watchfulness and diligence to wait vpon the hand of the Lord, in the ministery of his word: remembering the counsel of wise Salomon: 
Prou. 2. 4.  That we must seek for wisdom as for gold, and dig for her as for treasure, yea hunger and thirst after her as doth the dry ground for the dew of heaven: which we shall the rather do, if with david wee esteem the price 
Psal. 119. 103.  thereof above all treasures, and the comfort thereof greater than is the swéetenes of the hony and the hony comb.  Ari. 
It remaineth you should speak of our duty after hearing.  Sophr. 
In this part I required meditation, and practise 
duty after hearing. Meditation.  of that which wee haue heard. Meditation, against the negligence and security of those, who hold the word no longer in mind, than the sound of the same is in their ears, which appeareth by this, that they are no sooner risen from their seats, than their harts and tongues are gone after some other thing, according to the vain delight and affection of every one: where we red that the Iewes after they heard Peter preach, came unto him and his fellow Apostles, saying; Men and brethren, what 
Act. 2. 37.  shall we do? The people of Beroea are also commended 
Act. 17. 11.  by the holy Ghost, for that after the preaching of paul, they examined his Doctrine by the Scriptures of God.  Ari. 
Great is the contempt of many in this kind.  Sophr. 
There is also another use of meditation, more deeply to imprint into our mindes, and settle in our memories that we haue heard, with a wise and discréete application of each thing taught, unto ourselves: considering that all doctrines do not equally and in like sort belong unto all. unto meditation, add repetition, and conference with others, such especially as belong unto vs.  Ari. 
I desire to hear you of the last point, which is practise. 
practise: Luk. 11. 28.   Sophr. 
You know who it is that saith, Blessed are they that hear the word of God,& keep it. Add unto 
jac. 1. 22.  this, the exhortation of S. james, Be ye not hearers of the word only, deceiving yourselves, but be ye also doers of the same: pronouncing after, those onely to be blessed, which are not forgetful hearers, but doers of the work. So that it is plain, that the end of hearing, is not onely to know the will of God, but also to obey& perform it. For the which cause, the word is called, a light for our paths and a lantern for our steps, that we 
Psal. 119. 105.  may walk and live by it.  Ari. 
You haue satisfied me fully for the hearing of the word, I pray you give me leave to ask you a few things, concerning those that preach.  Sophr. 
It is better to learn and practise our own duties, than curiously to examine, as many do, the callings and duties of others. And I wish some were more occupied in excusing the Ministers of God, than in accusing them.  Ari. 
You would not haue them nourished or confirmed in any evil.  Sophr. 
God forbid, seeing they should be lights and exemplars unto the people. But I am of mind, that this reprehension belongeth not unto all: then I am assured that the most do offend grievously in the manner& circumstances of reprehending. For they reprehend whom they ought not, for what they ought not, and wherein they haue no skill: also unseasonably for time, place, company and other circumstances: lastly, without all reverence of their persons and callings, and for themselves most uncharitably, and far from the rule of christianity.  Ari. 
I cannot deny that which I haue heard often with mine ears, and to my great grief: it is the want of wisdom and love that causeth this rashness, my questions are of another kind. Some there be that require in their preachers, things that either they haue not, or show not themselves to haue: as great learning both in holy and profane knowledges, exquisite order and method in teaching, and a tongue filled and fined with a dainty kind of utterance.  Sophr. 
If your scruple be onely of these, I can in few words give you mine opinion, referring you for further resolution unto others. And for learning, I think it necessary 
Learning.  in him that should teach others. But when I consider what both the Minister should teach, and the people learn, I define his learning somewhat otherwise than many do. apollo was counted a learned 
Act. 18. 24.  man, because he was mighty in the Scriptures and word of God. paul confessing he was rude in speech, yet challenged unto himself not to bee rude in knowledge. 
2. Cor. 11. 6.  What knowledge he ment, it appeareth unto the Ephes. where he professeth his knowledge in the mystery 
Ephes. 1. 9, 3, 4 2. Tim. 3. 15, 17.  of Christ. unto Timot, he saith, that being brought up from his youth in the knowledge of the scriptures, they were able to make him wise unto salvation, affirming that the same were able to make the man of God perfect unto every good work.  Ari. 
What think you of other learnings?  Sophr. 
That they are more unto ornament than of necessity. Not that I would deny any good knowledge unto the Minister of Christ, but that all may understand that the first is onely necessary, alone giveth authority and credite unto him that speaketh in Gods Church: and alone can give rest, peace, contentment and resolution unto those that hear, for the conscience of man is of that nature, that it doth not nor cannot find any ground or foundation to stay and build itself upon, but onely the will of GOD revealed in his word.  Ari. 
May he not allege in his Sermon councils, 
Poets and Philosophe●●.  Fathers, Philosophers, Poets?  Soph. 
For the two last I wish them banished out of the Church. And I am persuaded that the truth of doctrine was not any way more amnoyed than by philosophy. So that the Apostle may seem not in vain to give that 〈◇〉 unto the Church to take heed of philosophy.  Ari. 
What of the other two?  Sophr. 
The Doctor may use them( I think) as also 
Councells and Fathers.  Histories, but soberly and in their place▪ not laying more credite vpon them, than they m able to sustain. As for the Pastor, though I mislike it not if he bee rea● in them: yet in his place, being the mouth of God, I see not how they may 〈◇〉 with the integrity of his office. And I see they are used more unto ostentation of reading and memory: more to the satisfying of the curiosity of some hearers, than to any sound fruit of those that desire to be edified.  Ari. 
I had forgotten the use of tongues. I pray you 
Tongues.  say also of them.  Sophr. 
They are great means for knowledge in those that haue thē,& I could admonish all that mind the ministery, to furnish themselves with so necessary helps. But to intermingle them in the preaching of the word, it is in mine opinion full of inconvenience; and I see that the heathen Orators were more wise in this part, than some Christian Preachers.  Ari. 
I will hold you no longer in this. The next is method and order. 
Method.   Sophr. 
If you mean of doctrine, the rule and practise of the Apostle is manifest: first milk, and then strong meate: and in these, that as any principle or article of religion giveth light unto others, so it bee taught in the first place and before others. But if you mean order of speech, and the managing of words and matter in every sermon, then besides the former rules, I think that method to bee best which is fittest for the matter in hand, and aptest both for conceit and memory as well of the Preacher as of the people. And as I take it▪ there is a great difference betwixt a constant and perpetual ministry, and that which is extraordinary▪ and uncertain; also between the continual pursuit of an whole book of holy Scripture, and the choice of some one text by occasion.  Ari. 
show me I pray you that difference.  Sophr. 
He that preacheth but once and that by occasion, as at Court, Paules▪ cross, the Spittle or 〈◇〉 where, propounding unto himself some few words or verses of the text, gathereth from thence three or four points or grounds of doctrine, which he meaneth for the time to stand vpon: passing over▪ whatsoever is else in the text; and so many times of a great number of excellent things toucheth no more than liketh himself; and to say the truth expoundeth not the whole text, but useth the same as a theme, or ground of those points, which he intendeth to handle for that time. Wherein how easy a thing it is to use an exact kind of dividing, all may easily understand. But he that beginneth some book of holy Scripture, and continueth to expound the same; after a general division of the whole, cannot always exactly divide every parcel of text, which will fall out to be the argument of his Sermon.  Ari. 
What must he then do?  Sophr. 
I will tell you so far as I haue been for my small learning able to judge by reading and hearing of the most faithful and sincere Preachers of our time. After a general division of the whole book, following the several partes of the same, to make the text itself the guide and direction of all his doctrine; so deriving the same from thence, as it may appear rather naturally to grow from the place which he handleth, than by any occasion drawn thereunto.  Ari. 
This seemeth not artificial and methodical enough unto many.  Sophr. 
They are both ignorant and injurious, that think the perpetual expounding of the word, ought to bee conformed unto the speech of an Orator in Court, Senate, or assembly.  Ari. 
But they require this help as they say, first for their conceit, and then for their memory.  Sophr. 
Both these in mine opinion and as I haue found by mine own experience; are better holpen by following the tenor of the text, than by any method else whatsoever, for if I hear with any attention, having first conceived the words of the text, I shall better see and understand both the ground and substance of his speech, and better help mine own memory to all purposes. Why so many accuse this kind, it groweth from their own negligence; who disdaming to use their books or memories for the text propounded, do thereby greatly disadvantage themselves, and injustly charge the Preacher with that fault which is their own.  Ari. 
Would you haue all to use their books?  Sophr. 
As many as can red: the rest that cannot read, must more deeply imprint into their memories the words of Scripture at that time red by the Preacher.  Ari. 
I am myself of your mind, and haue found it to bee true, that when I haue diligently marked the text, and the passage and the footsteps of the Minister of GOD, I haue been afterwards able, by view of the place, to recover either all or the greatest parte of that which hath been said in the same order and manner it was propounded. But what an injury and pride is this, that whom they aclowledge to bee furnished with necessary graces unto the dispensation of the gospel, to him they should prescribe the managing and carriage of his speech for the edifying of his auditory?  Sophr. 
The injury indeed is great, the only hope is that GOD in his good time will give humility and wisdom to discern this folly. Like unto this is the accusation of negligence, in many of the seruants 
Diligence.  of GOD. I am no patron of idleness especially in so serious and heavenly a work, as is the Preaching of the word. Yet I see that the negligence, and prejudice of the hearer is oftentimes imputed unto him that speaketh, which appeareth in this that whom one commendeth from the fruit of his own attention, him another discommendeth at the same time, as receiving no fruit. Not that the ministery was not one unto both, but for the diversity of their behaviour and affection in hearing.  Ari. 
What diligence think you necessary in the Minister for preaching.  Sophr. 
I will not take upon me to prescribe unto those, who for their skill and conscience are able and ready to lay vpon themselves their own burden. Yet seeing you require my opinion in private, I will not refuse even here to say unto you what I think.  Ari. 
You see my boldness, but I willingly bind myself unto all thankfulness for this liberty.  Sophr. 
I must also pray you to bear with my freedom of speech in these causes. First I am not of their mind that think no diligence and preparation enough, and therefore hold it sufficient, if the Minister preach once in a moveth, fortnight, or at the most in a week: when as the labours of men must be measured by the necessity of their duty, and not the duty of their calling, tempered to a presumed necessity of their diligence.  Ari. 
I agree unto this, and the contrary savoureth rather of curiosity, and a vain desire to haue their ears tickeled with a delicate and picked speech, than of a mind desirous of the pure and 
1. Pet. 2. 2.  sincere milk of the word, whereby they may grow up.  Sophr. 
Secondly, I would haue that well considered which our saviour Christ saieth, Matth. 13. every scribe that is taught unto the kingdom of heaven, is 
Math. 13. 52.  like unto an householder who bringeth forth of his treasury both new and old store.  Ari. 
What would you build vpon this place.  Sophr. 
That the Minister of Christ, who is here meant by a learned Scribe, being by former studies furnished unto the work of his calling, is not as one that hath nothing but from hand to mouth, and is to seek of those things which present occasion doth require: but as one that is rich in provision and stored of all necessaries before hand, and can furnish himself readily with sound, wholesome, and profitable things; requiring onely so much labour and time as may be necessary for his producting, ordering and applying of them.  Ari. 
What is then the diligence you do here require of the seruant of God?  Sophr. 
That he diligently weigh and examine the place he is to handle, for the true and natural sense thereof: and that having laid this ground, he faithfully collect such doctrines, exhortations, and comforts as the place itself doth properly and plainly afford. Whereunto, I would haue him not to rest upon his own iudgement, but to examine the judgements of others though not al, which is impossible, yet such as haue dealt most faithfully and sincerely in expounding of the word. Then, that he carefully consider how the same may be propounded with most fruit unto his auditory, whose nature, growth in knowledge, and other circumstances must not be neglected. Also that he first make use of that he teacheth, unto himself, applying the same unto the use of his own conscience and practise, that he may after with greater power of the spirit and affection of mind commend the same unto his auditory, for he can hardly move another that is not first moved himself. Lastly that he pray with all instancy unto the Lord to give unto him in this work of the ministery both wisdom and power of utterance to speak the word as it ought to be spoken; and to bless the hearers with humility, reverence, care of profiting, attention, and whatsoever else is necessary for their fruitful and profitable hearing.  Ari. 
me thinketh this diligence should suffice, but I fear it is wanting in many: yet where it is, I see not what more can bee required. I haue only one thing more to demand of you for this matter: what manner of Eloquence you think fit for the 
Eloquence.  dispensers of Gods mysteries.  Sophr. 
Not that of the heathen Orators and Philosophers, consisting in pomp of words, and frame of sentences, but that which S. paul meaneth, when speaking of his own manner& form of utterance, he saith: Wee haue not received the spirit of the world, but the 
1. Cor. 2. 12, 13.  spirit which is from GOD, that wee might know the things which God hath gratiouslie bestowed vpon us: which also we speak not with speech taught by human wisdom, but taught by the holy Ghost, joining spiritual things with those that are spiritual.  Ari. 
What is the sense of these words? for I assure you they are beyond my reach. The more hath been my negligence and forgetfulness of that I haue heard.  Sophr. 
First, that the knowledge of heavenly things, even in those that teach them, is not from the spirit of the world, but from the spirit of God. Secondly, that the same are uttered not with human eloquence learned in schools of oratory, but with heavenly eloquence, such as the holy Ghost teacheth. Thirdly, that the spiritual things of God need not the help of mans wisdom, nor may without disparagement, be matched with the same, but require an utterance like unto themselves which is spiritual, and not carnal. This the Apostle calleth the simplicity and sincerity of God, opposed unto 
2. Cor. 1. 12.  carnal wisdom,& after, a declaration of the truth, such as whereby the Minister of Christ is commended 
2. Cor. 4. 2.  unto the conscience of all men in the sight of God.  Ari. 
I do not yet sufficiently understand the meaning of the Apostle.  Sophr. 
Neither can I better express it unto you, than in his own words. The only helps which I can further give you in this point, are these two. First, that you diligently observe the utterance and eloquence of the Prophets and Apostles in their writings, whom no doubt, as the holy Ghost furnished with the matter and argument they handle, so he gave them that form and maner of deliverance, which was most agreeable thereunto. And I greatly marvel that so many having found out the diuers characters of human Orators, no man hath thoroughly laboured to find out the character and kind of utterance, used by the holy Ghost.  Ari. 
What is your second help?  Sophr. 
The examples of the most learned, faithful, and fruitful seruants of Christ in the ministery of the gospel, as Caluin, Beza, &c. of the French: of our own I will name only Master Dearing amongst many, whose grace in speech of heavenly things doth partly appear in his sermons that are extant; but was far other in the ears of those that heard him. And thus much of this.  Ari. 
It shall suffice: now I will put you in mind of your promise concerning the unlearned and unpreaching 
Of the unlearned ministry.  ministery.  Sophr. 
You remember it in good time. I haue said before that my meaning is nothing less than to become a patron for that ●rue. Of whom I say first that the Church and gouernours thereof should haue taken diligent care that none such might haue entered into the Lords harvest. The next remedy were, if it might bee obtained, that from henceforth none might enter, and these that are, might with all possible speed bee thrown out, and able and sufficient men placed in their rooms.  Ari. 
But here an impossibility is objected, which cannot be avoyded.  Sophr. 
I grant, if it were to be done in one moment. But that which cannot bee done upon the sudden, it may bee gained in time. And I am persuaded, that if diligent care had been taken from the beginning of the gospel, it might haue been effected long before this time. But it seemeth they haue little meaning to perfect the work, that will not so much as begin the same: yea themselves daily object new difficulties and hinderaunces there▪ unto.  Ari. 
I see then your desire is, that every Congregation might haue an able and sufficient Pastor.  Sophr. 
It is so: and I am persuaded, that the want thereof, is and will be the cause of all impiety and unrighteousness in the land. Besides, it holdeth the adversary still in hope by the ignorance of the people, and the want of means unto true knowledge, who otherwise should be utterly without all hope: and leaveth him an open and easy way unto all abuse, not of the multitude onely, but also of many of the better sort: whilst they are not grounded in the truth, nor preserved and kept in the same, as they should.  Ari. 
But is there any remedy for so great a mischief?  Sophr. 
I see nor know none in so great security of al states, in the causes of religion: unless it might please the Lord pitying the desolation of his Church in this part, to fill the hearts of those that are in authority with a zeal of his glory, and love of his people, cheerfully to take in hand, and earnestly to prosecute this part of the reformation of his church, which as it is the chiefest and greatest, so I wish it had been first and most laboured in: then I would not doubt, but God from all places of the land, would beyond all mans expectation, raise up Ministers unto his Churches, and that in greater number, than wee can no● think. And of this I am sure, that the universities in short time would double and triple their fruit unto the ministery. But we will leave this as that which wee may mourn, but which wee can not amend, otherwise than by our prayers unto God, and such small help as is in our own hands.  Ari. 
I do not see what help it is that is in our power.  Sophr. 
Yes there is some thing left unto vs. First to complain of the injury done unto us by an unpreaching ministery, hoping that the godly and Christian Magistrate will as well aid the people in the complaint of their wrong, as the Minister in the complaint of injury done unto him, which we see to be ordinary, and that all Courts both civil& ecclesiastical are full of these causes. And so much the more as it is greater reason he should be heard, that complaineth of hurt done unto his soul, than he that complaineth onely of injury done unto his body, or to his goods. Then me thinketh if the patrons and Bishops were earnestly and in good sort dealt withall, there were hope they would suffer themselves to be entreated in so lamentable a cause as this, so nearly concerning the salvation of the people, the care whereof they take vpon them. If this should fail, the most honourable Table of the Counsel were in all humble submission to bee sued unto, that as in many causes they protect the bodies and goods of the subiects; so they would for their wisdom and piety embrace this cause of our souls. The last hope from men, is by supplication to her majesty, that as she hath always shewed a most tender love, and motherlie affection, unto the life& welfare of her subiects: so it would please her Highnesse graciously to provide, that it might bee well with their souls.  Ari. 
I haue not heard that these means haue been used by any, in order and sort as you haue spoken. It may be, and the hope is great, that this course being wisely& dutifully managed, would receive a blessing from God. But after, or without these, is there any help in our own hands?  Sophr. 
First this, that being plagued with an evil Minister, wee provide that a better may succeed him, though it be with some charge: for if we purchase lands, and gather goods for our posterity, much more ought wee to provide for them that ordinance of God, whereupon dependeth their salvation.  Ari. 
But what is this for the present, and unto those that now want the means?  Sophr. 
Here I haue no better counsel than that which I see God hath put into the hearts of many people in the land; That leaving the tithes, and other emoluments unto those upon whom the lawe doth cast them, men do otherwise provide for themselves at their further charge.  Ari. 
The most do easily, as they think, excuse themselves herein in laying the fault vpon thē that receive those duties, by which they say, they should be provided of food for their souls.  Sophr. 
No doubt their fault is great, which reaping their corporal things, do not sow● or cause to bee sown unto them spiritual things, and they shall never be able to answer it before the great shepherd of the sheep, the Lord Iesus at his coming. Yet this excuseth not them that suffer their own want, when it may by any means bee supplied. And they are forcibly convicted from their care of the body: for if any man by violence or fraud shal deprive them of one part of their substance, they will by the very sense and light of nature help themselves and sustain their necessity with the rest. How is it therefore that being deprived of the means of their salvation, by diverting of their tithes, they do not with some part of the nine which remain unto them, help themselves to so necessary a provision.  Ari. 
I confess it should bee so, and that it were much better to provide for the soul with some want of the body, than to provide for the body with the want of the soul. But there are very few that understand this, and are affencted with it.  Sophr. 
The greater is the ignorance, and thereby the condemnation of the world, especially after so long ●ight and liberty of the gospel amongst vs. Yet my hope is that that which is already seen and remedied of many, will shortly be seen and remedied of more.  Ari. 
God grant it. Yet during the want of a sufficient ministery at home, you think we may seek the word abroad.  Sophr. 
Not so onely; but that we ought to do it, unless we should think it less danger, to want the food of our souls, than the food of our bodies. Yet I am of mind there is here some caution and godly policy to be used.  Ari. 
What is that?  Sophr. 
First, not to contemn public prayer, the word red, Sacraments administered, and other exercises of religion▪ which I take to bee parts of the ordinance& worship of God, as well as preaching: though I confess it doth far excel all the rest in dignity and in fruitfulness.  Ari. 
I like this well. For I see it is that wherein many do offend, and so, as they will not enter the Church so long as any part of the liturgy is in hand.  Sophr. 
Secondlie, I would not haue the insufficient Ministers so rudely and so uncharitably provoked as they are of many, but more lovingly and more mercifully dealt withall: so would they bee more peaceable and more tractable, than now many are; and more willingly join in the admitting and allowance of a better ministery than their own.  Ari. 
It is as you say. And I know myself many places, where the wisdom of the Preacher doth easily entertain not onely peace but also love, reverence and service at the hand of the Minister: where in other places, there is nothing but a continual jar between them; whilst the one continually provoketh the other: whereof also it cometh more often to pass, that the unsufficient Minister crowdeth out the learned preacher, than is displaced of him.  Soph. 
Besides if they were more lovingly dealt with al, and their ministry, in that they can do, less contemned, they would more willingly bear our travail abroad for that they cannot give us at home, and as I haue known in many places, both exhort and company their people in so doing.  Ari. 
I also haue heard, and known the like.  Sophr. 
Thirdly, in seeking abroad I could like it well, to join ourselves with the next assembly, where the word is purely and constantly preached, as well for the honour of the word itself, and to avoid the note of partiality; as also for the greater fruit of our own example, which undoubtedly is there where wee are best known, and most acquainted.  Ari. 
But is it not lawful here to make thoice of the best?  Sophr. 
Yes, if we be void of ambition and partiality,& define the best, rather by the honour of the word& profit of our brethren, than by our own fantasy. In the fourth place I require constancy without weariness and newfanglednes, for I see that unto many, the newest is always the best, and that their attendance is changeable and flitting, according to the novelty of their teachers.  Ari. 
This in deed is the fault of many.  Sophr. 
Others in their conceits prescribe unto their preachers, and if they say not in all things what and how they like, they esteem them not faithful, nor worthy to bee heard. And I haue known this folly in some, that they haue liked nothing better then to hear of the government of the Church and wants in the same, being themselves ignorant and rude in the very grounds and principles of religion. Others over easily conceive offence against their Preachers, and thereby disadvantage themselves of the fruit of their ministery, charging their teachers with want of zeal, learning, and diligence; when the change is onely in the offence and alienation of their own mind, and in the prejudice of their own affections: some in this folly proceed so far, that they imagine in their Ministers the loss of their former love and zeal of the truth, a diminution and extinguishing of their gifts: as if the man that is weakened in his sight should complain that the sun had lost his brightness: finally when for their own distemper they profit less, they imagine their Pastor to bee less profitable.  Ari. 
Enough of these, wee will leave them unto the Lord. Let us now return, if it please you, unto the unpreaching ministery against whom there are very many things objected, and more of late than heretofore.  Sophr. 
There is no doubt but their insufficiency, and want of conscience, justly causeth many complaints of the people against them. And I could wish that their own remorse might once so forcibly rebuk them, as they would both bee ashamed and afraid of their offence against GOD, and against his church. Yet I think there are some, that in the heat of their zeal, and for want of knowledge, do proceed too far in this argument. And whiles they look upon the sins of men, with an over streight eye, do vnwares themselves offend against God.  Ari. 
I pray you give me leave in this place, to object unto you as one of those of whom you speak, for I haue been somewhat acquainted with their arguments.  Sophr. 
I am content: onely I pray you to be short in objecting, that I may be short in answering. For I take it that by this, it groweth to ward supper time.  Ari. 
I will be so, and I like it well: for it is the best and nearest way to satisfaction. First therefore. I will begin with those, that think they may not communicate the holy things of GOD, with any man that is vnholie, whether it bee the Minister, or one of the people.  Sophr. 
It is no doubt a great indignity, that pearls should be cast before swine, much more to he handled& administered of them. Yet we must beware we count not them swine, whom for any cause in love and charity we should esteem to be sheep. And I fear many are too bold here to pronounce the sentence that belongeth not unto them.  Ari. 
I would gladly therefore understand of you, whom wee may account swine, and whom sheep?  Sophr. 
If I be not deceived, I haue heard that the name of swine belongeth onely unto those that are without, whether not yet come unto the Church, or revolted and fallen away from the same, with obstinate and resolute contempt against GOD and against his truth.  Ari. 
What think you then of the rest?  Sophr. 
Of those which are within, iudgement saieth Saint paul belongeth unto the Church, not unto private men. 
1. Cor. 26●   Ari. 
Your meaning is, we can not nor may not deny unto them the fellowship of the Church, nor the communion of holy things: but are we not bound ourselves to abstain from communicating with them?  Sophr. 
Yes, if you mean communicating with thē in any thing that is evil. But if you mean we may not communicate with them the holy things of God, as the Word, prayer and Sacraments, I am not of that mind.  Ari. 
The Apostle saieth; If any that is called a brother, be● a fornicator, covetous, and idolater, &c. with 
1. Cor. 5. 11.  such an one you shall not so much as eat.  Sophr. 
He meaneth it of civil familiarity, the liberty or restraint whereof is in our own power. But where we are bound by the commandement of God, and by the necessity of our own salvation, the case is otherwise. I may forbear familiarity with men for the Lords cause, but I may not on the other side forbear familiarity with God, because of men.  Ari. 
This is somewhat obscure.  Sophr. 
I will speak it yet more plainly. The commandement of GOD, concerning his worship, is absolute, and suffereth no exception for any respect of man; so is the necessity of our using the Lords ordinances for our edifying unto salvation:& therefore we are not, nor cannot be dispensed withall for the neglect of our duty, by any colour or pretence from other, no more than one seruant knowing his masters will, can bee excused by the negligence or evil demeanour of his fellow seruant. Or if you understand the place either expressly or by comparison of the Lords supper, then must it needs receive this sense, that the Apostle would haue them excluded which do so offend, and not us, who in this part haue not offended: for what punishment were this unto a wicked man, that another for his sake should be barred from the Table of the Lord. And there the Apostle manifestly speaketh of the separation of the wicked from the holy things of God for their vncleannes, not of the faithful their withdrawing of themselves for the ungodly their sakes. Now to remove a wicked man from the table of the Lord, is not in the power of any private man but of the whole Church, whom the Apostle there directeth to that duty.  Ari. 
But do not wicked men profane the holy 
hag. 2. 13.  things which they touch?  Sophr. 
No doubt, and that unto their just and great damnation, as the Apostle faith. But yet only unto 
1. Cor. 11. 29.  themselves: for they are nevertheless holy both in the ordinance of God, and unto them that are holy, that is unto all that receive them worthily. And therefore it is, that the Apostle in the same place, speaking unto those that come unto the Lords table, warneth every man to examine himself; but speaketh nothing of the examining of others.  Ari. 
But are we not guilty of their vncleannes by communicating with them?  Sophr. 
Not at all, for wee communicate not with them in an action of sin, but in an action of great holynes and religion, wherein if they offend by their hypocrisy or other unworthiness, it is their 〈◇〉 danger and reacheth not unto us, who by the grace of God do that well, which they do evil.  Ari. 
It were better perhaps to forbear, least wee might seem to confirm them in their iniquity.  Sophr. 
When the lord calleth us to do him honour, should wee not come because others refuse? And when he offereth mercy in his holy ordinances, shall wee not receive it, because that others do reject it?  Ari. 
I agree unto this, that no m●ns absence should cause me to forbear.  Sophr. 
The other▪ also absent themselves no less than these, though in another manner. For drawing near unto the lord with their mouths, they are 
Esa. 29. 13.  far from him in their hearts. So that neither their bodily nor spiritual absence ought to withhold me● from serving the lord, or from seeking the fruit of mine own edifying. Yea there is more reason, that for Gods cause, I should join myself here with men, than for mans cause to separate myself from God.  Ari. 
My meaning is not to renounce the Table of the Lord for their sakes, but to communicate the same without them.  Sophr. 
How may that be, when it seldom happeneth that even of a small number all should be worthy receivers? Remember you not that in the first Supper, 
joh. 13. 24. 24, 26.  there were but twelve, and one of them was a divell?  Ari. 
I haue heard some learned men say, that Judas received not the Sacrament with the rest.  Sophr. 
The comparison of the evangelists will easily remove that scruple.  Ari. 
But his wickedness was not yet known unto the other Apostles.  Sophr. 
That also may be doubted of, but say that his sin was hitherto secret. Yet because it was in him, it did nothing the less pollute the holy mystery, because it was unknown unto men, so that if we hold this opinion of the profanation of the Sacraments as well unto others as to themselves: the onely fear and suspicion of any mans uncleanness, should drive us away from all communion with them, least their contagion might defile vs.  Ari. 
You think then that though the Minister himself, or any of the communicants bee faulty, that wee may not for them forbear the mysteries of God.  Sophr. 
I think so, and further: not to avoid the time and place whereunto wee are bound, least wee confirm ourselves and others in this error; that either the sanctimony, or fruit of the Sacraments unto Gods children, dependeth upon the cleanness or vncleannes of men. But I must tell you here another thing, that wee are many times too cash and peremptory in judging of our brethren, and raising up offences against ourselves.  Ari. 
What is your meaning in this?  Sophr. 
That in excluding others from the supper of the Lord wee are rather to follow and expect, than to prevent and go before the iudgement of the Church.  
But you see the looseness of the discipline of our time.  Sophr. 
It is that, we may lament, but can not amend. Yet whom the Church holdeth in the communion of itself, with them wee may not refuse the holy things of the Lord. For if wee may not excommunicate them, much less may we excommunicate ourselves for their sakes: which in some sort we do, when for any exception taken against them, we withdraw ourselves from the Table of the Lord. But why do we not in love judge the best of all that submit themselves unto the use of the Lords ordinances? seeing wee know not the work of God in them: and therefore may easily commit against them the sin of the pharisee in the 7. of Luke, who thought the poor woman to be vnclean, who was cleaner than himself. If they do that for the time, that Christians should do, we are rather to esteem thē by the present action, than by any of our suspicion or knowledge of them before: leaving the iudgement of the heart to him, who alone is able to discern it.  Ari. 
What if they haue oftentimes before bewrayed their hypocrisy?  Sophr. 
We know not in what good hour the Lord will work the conversion of a sinner. As often therefore as he submitteth himself unto the outward testimonies of repentance, we must suffer our iudgement rather to be lead thereby, than to be carried with the uncharitable conceit of our own suspicion. Remember you not the saying of our saviour Christ, wherein he teacheth us how oftentimes we should forgive our brother offending against us?  Ari. 
Very well: That if seven times in one day my brother offend against me, and do seven times the same day return unto me, saying I haue sinned, I must forgive him.  Sophr. 
If I must bee thus charitable in iudgement, and of this readiness to forgive, where I haue interest in the offence, shall I not much more bee of this equity where the offence lieth not between my brother and me, but between him and God? Or shall wee think that God who commandeth us to be thus merciful unto our brethren, is not himself much more merciful? To conclude 
Matth. 5. 23.  this point. Christ said not in Matth. leave thy gift before the altar if thou seest there any man that is unreformed, and see him first reformed: nor if any haue offended against God or against thee, see him first reconciled before thou offer thy gift: but if thy brother hath ought against thee: that is, not if he haue offended, let that hinder thee: but if thy conscience witness against thee that thou hast offended.  Ari. 
I will weigh your answers,& reply no further in this question. I know your opinion concerning the manners of the Minister, and of others that they ought to bee no let unto me to keep me from the worship of God, and from the means of my salvation. What think you of the vnsufficiencie of the Minister?  Sophr. 
I wish this question were rather answered by the Christian government of the Church and Common weal, by thrusting them out of the places, they are so unfit for, than by me either in rebuking or bewailing their insufficiency.  Ari. 
That indeed were the best, if it might be obtained: but since it is not in our power, how ought wee in the mean time to bear ourselves towards them, in using or refusing their ministery?  Sophr. 
First, I see there are many that greatly deceive themselves in the opinion of sufficiency: and they seem to assign unto the lord a certain measure and rate of gifts, under the which none may be accounted sufficient, when we know that God openeth not his hand alike unto all.  Ari. 
I hold here the rule of the Apostle, that the 
1. Tim. 3. 2. Tit. 2. 7, 15.  Minister ought to be apt to teach, able to exhort with wholesome doctrine, and to rebuk the gainesaier.  Sophr. 
But all haue not an equal ability and measure in these things: and therefore as I could wish that al the Ministers of Christ had the gifts not of men onely, but also of Angells: yet knowing that GOD giveth unto every one according to his own pleasure; I would despise or refuse none which were in any measure able to teach true doctrine, confute error, reprove 'vice, exhort unto honest and godly life, and were faithful to do that diligently, whereunto he is enabled.  Ari. 
Many will mislike your moderation in this part.  Sophr. 
I hang not vpon the liking or misliking of men, my rule is the word of God, and the experience of his government in the Church. Who oftentimes humbleth men here as well as in their worldly estate, to teach them to look unto him, and the blessing of his hand, and not unto the mediocrity or excellency of the means he useth towards them.  Ari. 
You spake of this sufficiently before. Yet do I now somewhat better and more fully understand your meaning: But there are many now a daies, who seeing the unpreaching ministery to be odious and infamous in the Church, take vpon them to teach before they haue learned,& as our proverb saith, to fly before they haue wings.  Sophr. 
Wee haue spoken somewhat of these before,& in deed there are too many of them in all places, whose boldness and impudency is shameful and ridiculous; and their offence exceeding great, both against God, and against his Church. And for mine own part I like those much better, who knowing their own imbecility do keep themselves within their bounds, than those which are bold above their strength. But I leave them to those that should reform them.  Ari. 
Wee are come now unto those that being unable to teach, hold themselves contented with that part of the ministery, which they are able to execute, as the liturgy of the Church, the reading of the word of God, the administration of the Sacraments, &c. what may we think of these?  Sophr. 
The opinions of men are diuers concerning them.  Ari. 
I know it well, for some esteem them no Ministers at all, and therefore their ministery to be no ministery,& there are learned men of this mind.  Sophr. 
It is not learning that teacheth them this, but their own prejudice and conceit, which being once embraced and professed of them, they afterward seek by all possible means to maintain.  Ari. 
But they seem to haue many and weighty reasons out of the word, for their opinion.  Sophr. 
I haue heard and red a number of them: but to tell you what I think, who haue no great learning, though I haue laboured to keep and increase that little I had by education in my youth, they never conclude the question they take in hand, or if they do, the premises will not bear the conclusion, that they hang vpon them.  Ari. 
How so?  Sophr. 
They prove what should be, which no man denieth, and confute that should not bee, which no man affirmeth. But they touch not the point in question of that which is,& what is the nature and valour of it. I think yourself will say this is no good argument, They should not haue been made Ministers, therfore they are no Ministers: considering that of the Apostle, some 
1. Tim. 4. 24.  mens faults go before them unto iudgement, and some mens faults follow after them.  Ari. 
For the argument I like it not; for so a man might reason against the Magistrate, if he bee not such as he should, that therefore he is none at all. But for the place you alleged, I do not sufficiently understand how it may be applied unto your cause.  Sophr. 
I will tell you: the Apostle there speaketh of the choice of the Minister and of his ordination thereunto. Wherein, because men for their ignorance and senitie may offend, he telleth timothy that some mens faults and unworthiness to that calling are evident before hand,& ought to bar them from the ministry: but some escaping the present trial, may afterward be found out, which must by a new examination bee removed again from the ministry. Yet he saieth not that they are in the mean time no Ministers, or their ministry no ministry, but would haue them cast out, as soon as they are espied, even by the same hand that let them in.  Ari. 
Then you neither allow their entrance, nor their continuance in the ministery; but when they are entred, so long as they continue, you hold them ministers.  Sophr. 
That I do. And I never yet heard any sound argument against it.  Ari. 
They want that which the Apostle requireth to be in a minister.  Soph. 
I grant, but if that were enough to prove the nullity of their calling, then either their stain with any 'vice prohibited, or their want of any virtue required, should ipso facto, make them no Ministers.  Ari. 
Not so, but depriuable of their ministery.  Sophr. 
Let that also bee granted, for the time. Yet must their deprivation be expected, for as they were by public authority admitted unto the ministery, so can they not be removed but by public authority.  Ari. 
The manners of men are accidental unto their callings, but in a Minister to be able to teach, is essential.  Sophr. 
It hath in deed more affinity than other parts that should be in him. Yet under correction of the learned, I take it not to be simply essential, as that without which he is no Minister.  Ari. 
Why so?  Sophr. 
I remember héere an old lesson long ago taught me, when I was a young scholar in the university, where I left much good learning behind me, that, forma dat esse& nomen rei, the formal cause giveth both the essence and name unto every thing.  Ari. 
We that are unlearned, understand not these speeches.  Sophr. 
There is more difficulty in the terms, than in the things themselves. I will labour to make it plain unto you. A man is a man not for his body, nor for that which he hath common with other living and sensible creatures, but for the reasonable soul he is endued withal.  Ari. 
This I perceive. But is not his body, life, and sense necessary unto the being of a man?  Sophr. 
Yes, but not so, as the maim or imperfection of any or all of these should destroy the essence of a man. For though the body do want many members, as arms, legs, eyes, ears, nose: and though the senses be many of thē benumbed that he can not hear, smell, taste, &c. and though the whole body be oppressed with many grievous& dangerous diseases, yet is he not therefore no man, so long as there remaineth a reasonable soul united unto this miserable and wretched body. Also a man is a man from his conception, yet you easily understand how many& great imperfections there are in the matter and subject of his nature.  Ari. 
What think you then to be the formal cause of a Minister, that giveth unto him both his essence and name.  Sophr. 
His calling and inauguration into the ministery: for he is not a Minister before, though he had the gifts of an Apostle.  Ari. 
I grant he is no Minister without this, but doth not also the want of gifts make them to be no Ministers?  Sophr. 
The Priests under the lawe were oftentimes unlearned, yet were they not therefore no Priestes, and though they bee called dumb dogges to their great shane and reproach, yet they are allowed to be dogges. I haue not red that any of Aarons successors was ever denied to be a Priest. But I read that unless he that affencted the Priesthood could prove himself to bee of the 
Esd. 2. 62.  house of Araon, he was not admitted thereunto.  Ari. 
Is then the calling of the Church more unto the essence of a Minister, than his vnsufficiencie is unto the nullity of his ministery.  Sophr. 
Out of all controversy, as I think. I will willingly hear any grounded reason against it.  Ari. 
I would gladly yet further understand of you 
Calling.  what you think to be contained in this word Calling.  Sophr. 
First election and choice unto the function of the ministry: then admission thereunto by imposition of hands: addiction unto a special charge by authority of the Church, and the consent and acceptation of the people.  Ari. 
Bee it then that they bee Ministers▪ and that wee cannot deny unto them the honour of this calling, so long as the Church having received them, doth also retain them: may we likewise use their ministery.  Sophr. 
In that where in they are able to do the duty of a Minister, for from whom wee cannot haue all that wee should, we must bee content to take that which they can give.  Ari. 
For the rest?  Sophr. 
What we cannot haue at home, we must seek abroad, where it is to bee found. Or else with david 
2 Sam. 6. 3, 10  seek to bring home the ark of the Lord unto our own dwellings, as I haue already said.  Ari. 
We may then pray with them according to the liturgy of the Church.  Sophr. 
I dare not deny it; yet there are some which think there should be no Church liturgy, but the Minister should pray and administer all things according to his own liking.  Ari. 
That would be full of confusion, distraction, and ambition. Wee may also hear them red the word.  Sophr. 
We may so: and I am persuaded, that as public prayer hath greater promise of blessing than that which is private, for the cause alleged by the Apostle, That many faces find more favor before God 
1. Cor. 1. 11.  than one: so the public reading of the holy scriptures hath both more majesty, and more power and blessing from GOD, than that which is private: and I see it 
luke 4. 16. Act. 13. 15.  to haue been of most ancient continuance in the Church of God.  Ari. 
You are not of mind with some that say, reading is preaching.  Sophr. 
No if you understand preaching for the principal and chief parte of the Minister his duty, and for that which is called the wisdom and power of God unto 
Rom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 24.  salvation. But if you take preaching for a public and religious denunciation of the truth of GOD, it may in some sort▪ receive that name, and that by the authority of the Apostle in the Acts.  Ari. 
Let us come unto their administration of the 
Act. 15. 21.  Sacraments.  Sophr. 
If they be ministers, then you doubt not but the Sacraments administered by them, are Sacraments?  Ari. 
That must needs be granted, but not contrariwise.  Sophr. 
I see what you mean: but let us move no mo questions at this time. If their Sacraments bee the Sacraments of God, tell me if you can, why they should be refused in that service.  Ari. 
Because the preaching of the word, which is the life of the Sacrament, is in their ministery separated and divided from it.  Sophr. 
What if it be added in the ministery of another:  Ari. 
Some also except against this, because( say they) the word and Sacrament ought to meet in one person.  Sophr. 
If there were two pastors in the same Church, and the one did preach, and the other for the time baptize or administer the Lords supper, were it not agreeable unto the practise of Peter at Caesarea, who commanded 
Acts. 10. 48.  them to whom he had preached to be baptized by others?  Ari. 
I see no let. Also I remember it is said in John 
John. 4. 2  that Christ himself preached, but did not baptize, otherwise than by the hand of his Apostles. whereunto some apply that of S. paul; Christ sent me not 
1. Cor. 1. 17.  to baptize, but to preach the gospel: but I move their objections. The case is yet harder where the Minister baptizeth, and none preacheth.  Sophr. 
So it is. Yet better is half a loaf, than no bread. And if the word of God be red both before and in the administration of the Sacrament, I cannot well see, how the word may bee truly said to bee separated from the Sacrament.  Ari. 
But it is said, that they that come unto the Sacraments must be taught the nature& use of thē.  Sophr. 
It is necessary they should know both the one and the other: but it were much to say and prove it, that the word must needs bee preached at the same instant when the Sacrament is administered.  Ari. 
Did not Christ say unto his Apostles, go 
Matth. 28. 19.  preach, and baptize?  Sophr. 
But you must consider to whom& of whom it is spoken: namely, unto the Apostles, who were to go out into all Nations, where they must needs teach, before they could Baptize; and of those which were without, and yet not converted unto Christ, in whom it was necessary they should first be taught, and then be baptized after the example of the Eunuch, and according to the manner of Iohns ministery. But in Churches 
Act. 8. 31. Act 19. 4.  established it may be otherwise, though I like it best, that the word should be preached at the administration of the Sacraments.  Ari. 
Your mind is then that it is most agreeable unto the ordinance of God, and most profitable unto the assembly, that the word preached, and the Sacraments should go together, yet you think the want of the one is no sufficient cause, of the refusing of the other.  Sophr. 
No more than it is to refuse the preaching of the word, when there is no Sacrament administered.  Ari. 
But should wee not rather seek the Sacraments there, where they are joined with the preaching of the gospel.  Sophr. 
We must here consider, what belongeth unto the peace and order of the Church, and how we may avoid the provocation of those, both of the ministery and of the magistracy, whose anger against us may do more hurt than all our zeal is able to do good.  Ari. 
You would not haue us to favour or foster any corruption, to hold peace and credit with men?  Sophr. 
Not so. But when we cannot haue al that which we would, let us take that which wee may:& seek the rest by such good means as the Lord shall offer unto vs. And I am persuaded, that if they that require reformation, had carried themselves more lovingly both towards their brethren in the ministery, and also towards those in whose hands is the ecclesiastical and the civil government, less to haue provoked them against the cause and against themselves; many things might haue been won at their hands which now I fear me, will hardly be obtained.  Ari. 
I haue known some of that mind, but they haue been thought too could in the cause of reformation.  Sophr. 
It may be so, but of such as haue more offended in their vndiscretion, than the other in their moderation. And I haue sometimes marveled their success hath been no worse, considering the strong and high hand whereby things haue been managed. But yonder come our wives to call us to supper, wee will therefore break off this conference for this time.  Ari. 
I am right sorry we can continue it no longer: but I heartily thank you for this pains, and pray you that as the cause of this was from yourself: so you will give me leave at some other time to call vpon you for the like.  Sophr. 
Let us now go meet these messengers, for they mean to take no denial at our hands, and we ourselves being by this well wearied, haue need of intermission and refreshing, both of our bodies and of our minds.  Ari. 
I will follow you. But there is yet one thing wherein I would crave your favour and help.  Sophr. 
What is that?  Ari. 
As you haue reconciled my mind to our good Pastor Master Timotheus, so I pray you reconcile us in dead.  Soph. 
I will be very ready and glad to do so good a duty to you both, and there will bee a present occasion thereof, I look for him here at supper, and it may be he is come already, and would not trouble us because he saw us in so earnest conference. Lo yonder he is in deed, let us go unto him, the matter may be dispatched before supper, for knowing your mind and the piety of the man, I doubt not but it will be done at two words. We shall after enjoy one anothers company with more comfort.  Ari. 
I desire it may bee so; and therefore for my part, you shall command me.  Sophr. 
Not so: but let us meet the good father, where he cometh towards us: so shall wee deceive our messengers, who think to find us in this place. But they shall loose no great labour, to come so far out of their way.  
FINIS.