The SEVERAL DEBATES OF THE House of Commons, In the Reign of the Late King james II. Pro& Contra; Relating to the Establishment of the Militia, Disbanding the New Raised Forces, and Raising a present Supply for His Majesty. BEGINNING The Ninth of November, 1685; and Ending the Twentieth Day of the same Month; being the Day of the Prorogation of the Parliament. LONDON: Printed in the Year, 1697. THE PREFACE TO THE READER. THE Arguments that have of late been so rife, for, and against a Standing-Army, giving me Occasion, to inquire a little into the Proceedings of former Times, in relation to so weighty an Affair; I have thought it would not have been unacceptable to the World, to give the sense of a Parliament in that Case: For if there has been so much Deference had to the Opinion of particular Persons, upon such an Occasion, how much more should we have to that of the Great Council of the Nation, which we now present you with; and which, tho' it was always thought, to have been one not over legally constituted; the then King James the Second, having the Charters of most of the Corporations of England at his Devotion; yet you may hereby observe, that notwithstanding all the Methods that had been used, to debauch Mens Principles, as well as their Manners, in the preceding Reign; yet there was a great deal of the free English Spirit still remaining, which would be neither pam'd with delusive Promises, nor frightened with big Words, out of the Liberty transmitted to them, with so much expense of Blood and Treasure, by their glorious Ancestors, and which they were resolved to leave entire to succeeding Generations. The SEVERAL DEBATES OF THE House of Commons, Pro& Contra. Lunae 9. die Novembris. BOTH Houses of Parliament, pursuant to the last Adjournment, His Majesty being seated in his Royal Throne, in the House of Peers, commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, to give Notice to the House of Commons, that they immediately attend His Majesty in the House of Peers Where being come, His Majesty was pleased to make a most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament. After which, the House of Commons returned to their own House, and Mr. Speaker reported His Majesty's Speech to the House, which being red at the Clerk's Table, is as followeth. My Lords and Gentlemen, AFter the Storm that seemed to be coming upon Us, when we partend last, I am glad to meet you all again in so great Peace and Quietness; God Almighty be praised, by whose Blessing that Rebellion was suppressed: But when I reflect what an inconsiderable number of Men begun it, and how long they carried it on without any opposition, I hope every body will be convinced, that the Militia, which have hitherto been so much depended on, is not sufficient for such Occasions, and that there is nothing but a good Force of well disciplined Troops in constant Pay that can defend us, from such as either at Home or Abroad, are disposed to disturb us; and in truth, my concern for the Peace and Quiet of my Subjects, as well as for the Safety of the Government, made me think it necessary, to increase the number to the proportion I have done, that I owed as well to the Honour, as the Security of the Nation, whose Reputation was so infinitely exposed to all our Neighbours, by having lain open to this late wretched Attempt, that it is not to be repaired without keeping such a body of Men on foot, that none may ever have a thought of finding us again, so miserable unprovided: It is for the support of this great Charge, which is now more than double to what it was; that I ask your assistance in giving me a Supply answerable to the expenses it brings along with it; and I cannot doubt, but what I have begun so much to the Honour and Defence of the Government, will be continued by you with all the cheerfulness and readiness that is requisite for a Work of so great Importance. Let no Man take Exception, that there are some Officers in the Army not qualified according to the late Tests, for their employment: The Gentlemen, I must tell you, are are most of them well known to me, and having formerly served me on several Occasions, and always approved the Loyalty of their Principles by their Practices; I think them now fit to be employed under me, and will deal plainly with you, that after having had the benefit of their Services in such a time of Need and Danger, I will neither expose them to Disgrace, nor myself to the want of them, if there should be another Rebellion to make them necessary to Me. I am afraid, some Men may be so Wicked, to hope, and expect, that a Difference may happen between You and Me, upon this Occasion; but when you consider what Advantages have risen to us in a few Months, by the good understanding, we have hitherto had, what wonderful Effects it hath already produced in the change of the whole Scene of Affairs abroad, so much more to the Honour of the Nation, and the Figure it ought to make in the World, and that nothing can hinder a further Progress in this way to all our satisfactions, but Fears and Jealousies amongst ourselves. I will not apprehended, that such a misfortune can befall us as a Division, or but a Coldness between You and Us; nor that any thing can shake you, in your Steadiness and Loyalty to Me, who by God's Blessing, will ever make you returns of Kindness and Protection, with a Resolution to venture, even my own Life, in the Defence of the true Interest of this Kingdom. The Earl of Middleton, a Member of the House of Commons, and one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, moved, That the House would immediately return their Thanks to his Majesty, for his most Gracious Speech, and also proceed to the Consideration of answering the ends therein mentioned. After some Debate, it was resolved, That the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, on Thursday Morning next at Ten of the Clock, to take into Consideration, His Majesty's Speech: And the House Adjourned till Thursday the 12th. Instant, Ten a Clock in the Morning. Jovis 12. die Novembis. 1685. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into Consideration His Majesty's Speech. Mr. solicitor in the Chair. The King's Speech was red. The Lord Middleton moved to have it Considered by Paragraphs. Sir W. C. Some other than the Militia is necessary to be found, and moved a Supply for the Army. Ld. P. We have lately had an unfortunate Proof, how little we are to depend upon the Militia, and therefore fure we must all approve of His Majesty's increasing the Forces to what they are. France is formidable, now Holland's Forces are greatly increased, and we must be strong in proportion, for preservation of ourselves and Flanders, and toward that, the good Harmony 'twixt the King and this House hath greatly contributed. It has had two other great Effects abroad. 1. The French King's Army last Spring was marching towards Germany; Crequey was far advanced, but when the King of France heard the kindness of this House to the King, and the Defeat of Monmouth, he recalled them. 2. The French and Spaniard had also a difference about Hay and Fonttereabeau: The French advanced their Troops, and recalled them on this News. This is the noble Effect of the Harmony between the King and this House, who have( I hope) brought the same Heart and Loyalty, they had the last time here. Hence we may conclude, these Levies made by the King are Just, Reasonable, and Necessary. And so let us Vote a Supply, to answer His Majesty's present Occasions. Ld. R. The Question is, whether a Supply or not. I do not intend to Arraign the Militia, but seeing a Soldier is a Trade, and must( as all other Trades are) be learned, I'll show you where the Militia has failed, viz. At Chatham, and in June last, when the late Duke of Monmouth Landed, and had but 83 Men, and 300 l. in Money, who in spite of the Militia, nay, in spite of such other Force as the King could spare hence, brought it so far as he did. If the King of France had Landed then, what would have become of us? I say, the Militia is not insignificant, but an additional Force is necessary, and so a Supply that is answerable to it. Sir T. C. If it shall appear to you, that the King's Revenue he hath already, be sufficient to supply all his Occasions, what then need we give him more. 'tis moved we should proceed by Paragraph. To come first to the Militia, who( let me tell you) did considerable Service in the late Rebellion, and if a great Noble-man of this Kingdom had been supplied and assisted, it had soon been quelled. A Confidence 'twixt the King and his People is absolutely needful, let it come whence it will, our Happiness consists in it. His Majesty, on his first entrance on the Crown, told us, He had been misrepresented, and that he would preserve the Government in Church and State now Established by Law, and to maintain us in all our just Rights and privileges. Over-joyed at this, we run hastily in to him, we gave four Millions( reckoning what we added to him for Life was worth) at once. The present Revenue is 1900000 l. or two Millions yearly; the Charge of the Government( admitting this Army kept up) is but 1300000 l. yearly: And pray let us not forget that there was a Bill of Exclusion debated in this House; I was here, and shewed myself against it; the Arguments for it were, that we should, in case of a Popish Successor, have a Popish Army. You see the Act of the Test already broken, but pray remember what the late Lord Chancellor told you, when the late King( of Blessed Memory) past that Act,( the words were to this Effect.) By this Act you are provided against Popery, that no Papist can possibly creep into any Employment. I am afflicted greatly at this Breach of our Liberties, and seeing so great difference betwixt this Speech, and those theretofore made, cannot but believe this was by some others Advice. This struck at here, is our All, and I wonder there have been any Men so desperate, as to take any Employment not qualified for it, and would have therefore the Question, that a standing Army is destructive to the Country. Sir J. E. The number of the standing Forces is about 14 or 15000 Men, and they were about half so many before, and I conceive we are not safe without these Forces to aid and help the Militia. I am not for laying the Militia aside, but I say, there is a necessity for a standing Force. Half the Charge of those Forces is about 300000 l. Yearly, the whole being 600000 l. Yearly, I conceive is all we need to give for it, of that there remains 200000 l. unreceived of the 400000 l. given last, so the 200000 l. may go towatds it, and the rest may be supplied by a Tax on Commodities; as for balancing of Trade, may better be charged than not. I am for a Supply. Sir H. C. I stand up for, and would not have the Militia reflected on, it was very useful in the late Rebellion of Monmouth, it kept him from Bristol and Exeter; and is as good as any Army we can raise against any at home. Mr. C. I am for vindicating the Militia. The just cause for a Supply, and would give it, and to Reward the Officers not qualified, or take them off some other way. Mr. A. I dread a standing Army, but am for a Supply. Mr. W. Kings in old time used to sand, not only an account of their Revenues, but of the Charge they were going to be at, to the Parliament, when they demanded Aids. Henry the Fifth had but 56000 l. and Queen Elizabeth had 160000 and odd pounds Yearly. I am for for a Bill for making the Militia useful, and would know if we give Money thus, it be not for setting up a standing Army. I am for good Guards. Sir W. T. The Kingdom is guarded by Law; we are now in perfect Peace; the King is both feared and loved, an Army little needed; Men justly afraid: That which made the last Rebellion as it was, the Man that headed it, was a Favourite of the Faction, and though he had got such a number, he was beaten by 1800 Men only. I am against an Army. Mr. S. This last Rebellion has contributed to our future Peace, and those engaged in it have sung their Penitential Psalm, and their Punishment rejoiced at by all good Persons. I do not commend the Militia, yet it is not to be rejected, but to be new modeled; and for my part, I had rather pay double to these,( meaning for keeping up the Militia) from whom I fear nothing, than half so much to those, of whom I must ever be afraid; and say what you will, 'tis a Standing-Army. The last Force preserved the Peace, and was sufficient to do it in the late King's Time, and is now; all the Profit and Security of this Nation, is in our Ships; and had there been the least Ship in the Channel, it would have disappointed him. Supporting an Army, is maintaining so many idle Persons to Lord it over the rest of the Subjects. The King declared, no Soldiers should Quarter in Private Houses; but that they did: That they should pay for all Things they took; but they paid nothing for almost all they took. And for Officers employed not taking the Tests, is dispensing with all the Laws at once; and if these Men be good and kind, we know not whether it proceeds from their Generosity, or Principles: For we must remember, 'tis Treason for any Man to be reconciled to the Church of Rome; for the Pope, by Law, is declared Enemy to this Kingdom. A Supply given, as moved for, is a kind of an establishing an Army by Act of Parliament; and when they have got the Power into their Hands, we are then to derive it from their courtesy; and therefore I would have the Question be, That the Safety of the Kingdom doth not consist with a Standing Force; And this it may be will disappoint these Persons, that make it their Business this way, to make themselves useful. Sir T. C. then moved an Address. Sir Tho. M. I am first for a Supply; that hinders not an Address: His Majesty, in his Speech, only says, That the Militia's not sufficient. The late Long Parliament always owned some Force necessary: We are not to name the Number, the King is best Judge of that; a great Soldier, and a good Prince. For I hear the Number is 14 or 15000; and I am for a Supply, and never saw, but Money was always one part of the business of every Parliament. There was a bitter Spirit in the three last Parliaments, not yet well allayed; and so I conclude, a considerable Force needful, besides the Militia. I call those raised Guards, and would have a Supply given to support His Majesty's Extraordinary Occasions. The Navy wants 6 or 800000 l. and I would give any Reason for it; so a Supply may, without a Negative, be given. Serj. M. There is already a Law, That no Man shall, on any Occasion whatsoever, rise against the King: Lords, and Deputy-Lieutenants, have Power to Disarm the Disaffected: If you give thus a Supply, it is for an Army; and then, may not this Army be made of those that will not take the Test: Which Act was not designed a Punishment for the Papists, but a Protection for ourselves; and giving this Money, is for an Army: I am against it. Sir R. T. I must concur with the King, That the Militia is not sufficient: I am for mending the Militia, and to make it such as the King and Kingdom may confided in it: To trust to Mercenary Force alone, is to give up all our Liberties at once. If you provide a constant Supply to support them, by setting up an Army, Sir Thomas Meers has turned it into a Supply for the Navy. There is no Country in the World, has a Law to set up an Army; we have already made an ample Supply for the Government. 'tis for Kings to come to the House, from Time to Time, on Extraordinary Occasions; and if this Army be provided for by Law, they will never more come to this House. I am for giving for the Extraordinary Charge past. Armies are useful, when Occasion is for them; but if you Establish them, you can Disband them no more. I am for a Supply, but not on this Score of the Militia: There was not a Company formed till 1588; and as soon as Queen Elizabeth had done with her Army, she Disbanded it. Armies have been fatal often to Princes. The Army, in the late King's Time, often turned out their Leaders. I am for going to the House, for leave, for a Bill to mend the Militia. Sir W. C. The Beef-Eaters, at this rate, may be called an Army. Sir T. H. The Colonel may say what he will of the Beef-Eaters, as he Nick-names them; but they are established by Act of Parliament. Mr. S. I can make out, that the King's Revenue is sufficient, to maintain the Force on foot. The Question: That a Supply be given to His Majesty. Sir Tho. C. moved, That the Words,( toward the Support of the Additional Forces) may be added. The Committee divided. Yea's 156, No's 225. It was carried in the Negative; and then these Votes past: That a Supply be given to His Majesty; and that the House be moved, to bring in a Bill, to make the Militia useful. And then Adjourned till Nine a Clock to Morrow Morning. Veneris 13. die Novembris, 1685. A Motion being made by the Earl of Middleton, That the House should proceed to the further Consideration of His Majesty's Speech. The House thereupon resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House; and the previous Question should be then put, for the House to go on with the Supply, or proceed to the next Paragraph. The House divided. For proceeding to the Supply 182. For proceeding to the next Paragraph. Then the House Adjourned till to Morrow Morning. Sabbati 14. die Novembris. 1685. An Address was moved in the Committee by Sir Edw. Jennings. Others moved the Inconveniency of it, if not granted, and so let it alone. Others to have the catholics, who had been so useful and well known to His Majesty, name and compensated. Some seemed to doubt His Majesty's Compliance. Others that it was not to be doubted, when Addressed by such a House. At last it came to this Conclusion, That Instructions be given to a Committe, to draw an Humble Address to His Majesty. Then the House Adjourned till Monday Morning. Lunae 16. die Novembris. 1685. Mr. solicitor Reports, That the Committe appointed had drawn up an Address to His Majesty; which was red, and agreed to, and is as follows, viz. Most Gracious Sovereign, WE your Majesty's most Loyal and Faithful Subjects, the Commons in Parliament assembled, do in the first place( as in Duty bound) return your Majesty our most humble and hearty Thanks for your great Care and Conduct in suppressing the late Rebellion, which threatened the Overthrow of this Government, both in Church and State, to the Extirpation of our Religion as by Law established, which is most dear unto us, and which your Majesty hath been pleased to give us repeated Assurances you will always defend and maintain, which with all grateful Hearts we shall ever aclowledge. We further crave leave to acquaint your Majesty, that we have with all Duty and Readiness taken into our Consideration your Majesty's Gracious Speech to us: And as to that part of it, relating to the Officers in the Armies not qualified for their Employments, according to an Act of Parliament made in the 25th. Year of the Reign of your Royal Brother, entitled, An Act for preventing Dangers which may happen from Popish Recusants. We do out of our bound Duty, humbly Represent unto your Majesty, That these Officers cannot by Law be capable of their Employments, and that the Incapacities they bring upon themselves that way, can no way be taken off but by an Act of Parliament. Therefore out of that great Reverence and Duty we owe unto your Majesty, who have been graciously pleased to take notice of their Services to your Majesty, we are preparing a Bill to pass both Houses, for your Royal Assent, to indemnify them from the Penalties they have now incurred, and because the continuing of them in their Employments may be taken to be a Dispensing with that Law without an Act of Parliament, the Consequence of which is of the greatest Concern to the Rights of all your Majesty's Subjects, and to all the Laws made for the Security of their Religion: We therefore, the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses of your Majesty's House of Commons, do most humbly beseech your Majesty, that you would be most graciously pleased to give such Directions therein, that no Apprehensions or Jealousies may remain in the Hearts of your Majesty's most Loyal Subjects. A Motion being made for going to the Lords for their Concurrence, Some debated, that it would carry with it the greater weight, and be more likely to have good effect; and if the Concurrence of the Lords were asked, the Judges in the Lords House would have an Opportunity of speaking their Opinion to it. Others opposed it, for the Lords having already given their Thanks to the King for his Speech, as being contented therewith, and that it would be more for the Honour of the House of Commons to Address alone. Those that were against the thing itself when it past first, were about going to the Lords for their Concurrence. The House divided. For asking Concurrence 208. Against it 212. It past in the Negative. Then the Members of the House that were of His Majesty's Privy Council, were ordered to know when His Majesty would be pleased to be Attended therewith. Mr. solicitor in the Chair. The House being Resolved into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of a Supply for His Majesty. The Lord Campden moved 200000 l. to be given to the King for a Supply, which with 200000 l. confessed of what was given for Suppressing the late Rebellion, makes 400000 l. and was seconded. Sir J. E. said, that 1200000 l. was needful, and that such a Sum had been given before in the same Session, when there was an Address of this kind made to the late King. Sir T. C. We have this Session already given Customs and Excises for His Majesty's Life. Additional Duty on Wines 8 Years Yearly 150000 l. Tax on Sugar and Tobacco 8 Years Yearly 200000 l. Tax on linen and East-India Commodities 5 Years Yearly 120000 l. In all six Milions. Let us give little now, to have Opportunity to give more another time; for if we give too much now, we shall have nothing left to give; and if we proceed thus, what we have will be taken from us. Sir E. J. To give 1200000 l. now, because such a Sum has been given, is no Argument; once 2400000 l. was given here, and therefore should it be so now? 200000 l. with what is already confessed to be in Cash, makes 400000 l. and that will maintain the Charge one Year and better; and giving all at once, is doubting the Affection of the People. Ld. P. You unanimously voted a Supply last Night, and naming so little now, is not so ingenuous a way of proceeding. We are told, six Millions have been this Sessions given; I would have you, Gentlemen, take notice, the giving His Majesty what the late King had, is but settling a Revenue that before was not sufficient for the support of the Government; what was given besides, was part for the late King's Servants, part for the Fleet and Stores, and part for suppressing the late Rebellion. To give so little now, is not to enable the King to defend and preserve us, which he has promised to do. I am for 1200000 l. Ld. R. The Question is for 200000 l. or for 1200000l. What has been given in this matter already, ought not to be weighed at all; and what is called six Millions, had all uses( when given) tacked to it. The Revenue his Brother had, had Uses enough, as— The Wine and Vinegar Act, ranted at yearly 150000 l. For the Fleet, Stores, Ordnance, and Servants. The Sugar and Tobacco Act, ranted at yearly 200000 l. For the said Stores, Ordinary, and Fleet— And the Additional Duty on French linen and East-India Commodities, ranted at yearly 120000 l. For suppressing the late Rebellion— So there are Uses for all that, and what is now given, must be taken for supporting the Forces— And therefore I am for 1200000 l. Sir W. C. Two hundred thousand pound is much too little: Soldiers move not without Pay. No Penny, no Pater Noster. Mr. E. Moved for 700000 l. and mentioned to have it raised upon the new Buildings, which might produce 400000 l. and a Poll Bill for the other 300000 l. Mr. W. If I knew the King's Revenue were short, I would give as far as any Man; but now we are going for this particular Use, and if this 200000 l. will not do, how can we be sure that 1200000 l. will?— If we give too little now, hereafter, if we see Occasion, we may give more; but if we now give too much, I do not see how we shall ever have it again, though I have heard of such a thing in Queen Elizabeth's time. The King( reckoning what he had of his own into it) has 600000 l. yearly more than the late King had, and when there is need, I am for more, but now only 400000 l. and to raise that easy you will be put to it: How will you do it? If you lay it upon Trade, that will make it Revenue, and when once in the Crown for some time, it will never get out again. I am for only 400000 l. Ld. C. If the King wants 200000 l. I would give him 200000 l. but I am for giving no more than he really wants.— Mr. W. We give, because we are asked; I am for the least Sum, because for an Army, and I would be rid of them as soon as I could; and am more now against it than I lately was, being satisfied that the Country is weary of the Oppression of the Soldiers, weary of Free Quarters, Plunder, and some Felons, for which they have no Complaint, no Redress: And since I heard Mr. Blathwait tell us, how strict Rules were prescribed them by the King, I find by their behaviour, the King cannot govern them himself, and then what will become of us? Sir W. H. The Rebellion is suppressed, and the Army is urged to be small, but it is so thick of Officers, that by filling up the Troops, which is easily at any time done, increases their Number to a third part more. I am for providing for them but one whole Year only, and only for 400000 l. Mr. C. I agree to the 400000 l. We owe besides that a Duty to our Country, and are bound by the Duty to leave our Posterity as free in our Liberties and Properties as we can▪ and there being Officers now in the Army, that have not taken the Test, greatly flats my Zeal for it, and makes me esteem the Militia, which if we well modeled, and placed in mens hands of Interest in their Country, we are certain, and so is the King secure; for there is no such Security of any Man's Loyalty, as a good Estate. Reasons I have heard given against Armies, that they debauched the Manners of all the People, their Wives, Daughters, and Servants. Men do not go to Church where they Quarter, for fear Mischief to be done at their Houses in their absence. ploughmen and Servants quit all Country Employments to turn Soldiers; and then a Court marshal in time of Peace, is most terrible. In Peace, Justices of it, and the Civil Magistrate ought to Punish, if applied to. And what Occasion then can be for them? Is it to suppress a Rebellion in time of an Invasion? all then will go towards that. Or is it to Assist his Allies? the House will give Aid when wanted on that score. The Guards I am not against, those shewed themselves useful in Venner's Business, and the late Rebellion; I am not against them, I only speak of those that have been new raised. Col. A. I'll tell you the use of these Forces; they expected the rising of a great Party, and were not these Forces standing, to prevent a Rebellion, you would have one in few days. Mr. B. If any Disorders have been committed, it is not yet too late to have them redressed; and Martial-Law( if by that cleared) does not hinder proceeding at Common-Law for the same thing. Four hundred thousand pound is not enough; no State near us in Proportion, but what exceeds this small number of Men. Sir T. C. Seven Millions of Men in England; the strength of Men in England consists in our Native, in which( for want of Men) France can never equal us; their Trade will not breed them; a Ship of 50 tons will carry 100000 l. of their Goods, linen and Silks. Ours are bulky Goods, and Employs Twenty times more, unless you( by burdening of Trade) let them into the West-Indies. Armies are not manageable, Commanders have been very often known to Rebel: The measure of our Supply is our Security. His Majesty's Declaration says, if on Complaint, the Officers give no Redress, then Complain to the King; and so Justice is baulked by this hardship put upon the Complainant. Sir W. T. moved to have it temporary from year to year. Sir C. M. Let it be to enable His Majesty to preserve us in Peace at home, and to make His Majesty Formidable abroad for 1200000 l. as a Supply answerable to the Loyalty of this House. Sir H. C. This House was so forward to give last time, that the King's Ministers gave their stop to it. Sir J. W. The Use is to direct the Quantum. I see a present necessity for continuing these Forces, till the Militia is made useful; I am for trying two years, and so for 400000 l. and so leave the Door open for coming hither to give another time. Sir T. M. The Principle of the Rebel Party is never to Repent. I am for 1200000 l. and if so much be given, I would have you, Gentlemen, to remember the Fanaticks are the cause of it. Mr. P. An iceland may be attacked, notwithstanding any Fleet. Ours is much mended, a Thousand Men daily at Work, ever since we gave Money for it, and not one Man in it an Officer, that has not taken the Test. Col. O. New Troops are not so good as old, and more subject to commit Disorders, but will be less so, when they are longer under Discipline. The King of France never sends Troops to his Army, till they have been two or three years on foot in a Garrison. Sir T. C. The Trained Bands at Newberry-Fight did brave things. Then the Question was put, That a Sum, not exceeding 400000 l. should be given to the King. The Previous Question being put. Yeas 167. Noes 179. It passed in the Negative. Then the Question was put for 700000 l. and no more. Yeas— 212. Noes— 170. So it passed in the Affirmative. The Question for 1200000 l. being thus waved, it was then Ordered, That the Committee of the whole House should to Morrow proceed on His Majesty's Supply, and on Wednesday to consider of Heads for a Militia-Bill. And then Adjourned till Nine of the Clock to morrow Morning. Martis 17. die Novembris. 1685. The House Resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the way of raising His Majesty's Supply. Mr. North in the Chair. Sir J. E. Moved, that an Additional Duty upon Wines might yield 400000 l. yearly; and other Goods he name, about 600000 l. yearly, which with the continuance for some years of the late Act of Imposition of French linens, and East-India Silks, &c. might make up the Sum; and told the House, he proposed this way, to avoid a Land-Tax. The Goods he name to be ranted, were Soap, Potashes, to pay 7 d. ½ to triple; unwrought Silks, Deals, Planks; and other Boards to double. Raisins and Pruans 2 s. per Cent. to double. Iron now pays 7 s. per Cent. to double. copperess 18 s. per Cent. to double. oils to 8 or 10 per Tun, pay now 30 s. Drugs will bear ⅔ more than ranted. Drugs and Spice from Holland, Salt, and all Prohibited Goods, 20 l. per Cent. And this I hope may do what is now intended to be raised at this time, supposing 4 l. per Tun on French Wines. Sir D. N. Moved much to the same effect, and enlarged on it, and said, the Book of Rates had been well considered, and these Goods capable of bearing the Duties proposed; but if the King took the 4 l. per Tun on French Wines at twenty thousand pounds yearly, he would be a loser by it. Other Gentlemen insisted on having French linen higher charged. The Pepper that is expended here, paying one penny a pound, might pay one penny more, and so yield 70 or 80000 l. yearly; and that Bullion exported to the Indies, might bear 5 l. per Cent. and encourage the sending of other Goods( in some measure) instead of it thither. Sir R. T. Moved Subsidies or Land-Tax; but the House inclining to what was first proposed, and being consented to by the King's Ministers, seemed contented with it; so was voted, That an Act for laying an Imposition on French linens, East-India Goods, Brandy, &c. should be continued for five years from Midsummer 1690. and be given to His Majesty as 400000 l. And that An Imposition of 4 l. per Tun be laid upon all French Wines, on which to be raised 300000 l. which makes up the 700000 l. The time how long this 4 l. per Tun shall be laid, is not yet determined, an Account being first to be brought from the Custom-House Books, of what number of tons are yearly Imported; 'twas said 100000 tons: Others affirmed, there were near double so many. The House seemed to incline to 8 or 10 years, and that the Duties already on it should still continue for the same time; which 4 l. per Tun, with the Duty it already pays, is near 20 l. per Tun. And then the House adjourned till Nine of the Clock to morrow Morning. Mercurii 18. die Novembris. 1685. Mr. Speaker Acquaints the House, That His Majesty having been yesterday Attended in the Banqueting-House at Whitehall with the Address of Thanks from this House for his great Care and Conduct, and suppressing the late Rebellion; and likewise concerning the Officers of the Army not qualified for their Employments, was Graciously pleased to Return an Answer, to the effect following. My Lords and Gentlemen, I Did not expect such an Address from the House of Commons. For having so lately recommended to your Consideration the great Advantages a good Understanding between us had produced us in a very short time, and given you warning of Fears and Jealousies amongst ourselves. I had reason to hope, that the Reputation God had blessed me with in the World, would have seated and confirmed a good Confidence in you for me, and of all that I say to you. But however you proceed on your Part, I will be steady in all my Promises I have made to you, and be just to my Word in this, and all my other Speeches. The said Answer was red with all due Reverence and Respect, and there being a profound Silence in the House for some time after it. Mr. W. moved, that a Day might be appointed to consider on His Majesty's Answer to the late Address of this House, and name Friday next. Mr. C. Stood up, and seconded that Motion, and said, I hope we are all English Men, and are not to be frighted out of our Duty by a few high Words. Ld. P. took present Exceptions against the Words, which, as is usual, were writ down by the Clerk, and Mr. C. called upon to explain— Mr. C. said, he intended no ill by it; and that he did not believe these the Words: And that if he had said any thing that had given that House Offence, he was sorry, and would ask them Pardon for it. Sir C. M. It is not enough to say these were not the Words, but you are to say what the Words were. Mr. C. I do not make set Speeches: I cannot repeat them; and if they did drop from me, I ask the King and you Pardon. So these being took for granted to have been the Words, Mr. C. as the Custom is in such Cases, withdrew into the Speaker's Chamber. Sir J. T. Not our own Honour, but the King is concerned in this; and moved, that he should be brought to the Bar, and there to receive a Reprimand from Mr. Speaker for it. Sir H. C. a Gentleman of great Loyalty, never before of the House, desired he might have what Favour he could. Mr. A. A great Reflection upon this House, if this be let pass. Several spoken of his Loyalty, but none to Excuse him for this. Ld. P. sand him to the Tower. Ld. M. The meaning of this seems like an Incendiary. The Tower! This needs no aggravation; a Reprimand for an Offence to this House, might do; but this does not end there, and 'tis a question whether it be in the Power of the House to pass it by, the Offence is given to the King as well as you: I am for calling him to the Bar in the first place. But 'twas then ordered, that Mr. C. for his undecent Speech, should be sent to the Tower. And then Mr. S. said, Now this is over, I cannot but consent to those that moved for a day, to consider of His Majesty's Answer, nor think myself as honest as I should be, if I now hold my tongue. And if we do take this Matter into Consideration, I doubt not but we shall behave ourselves with that decency to His Majesty, that we may hope for a more satisfactory Answer, than as yet this seems to be to me. Sir J. E. I hope that acquiescence that was this morning in this House, on reading His Majesty's Answer, has ended this matter. I do think the King will do all what he promised, and am for resting there Sir T. M. moved to Adjourn, and said, he did not know what to say to it. Sir T. C. For that very Reason I move for a day to consider of it; and I do not think we show that Respect we ought to do to the King if we do not. And then the House adjourned to Nine of the Clock to Morrow Morning. Jovis 19. die Novembris. 1685. The Committee appointed to search the Custom-House Books, how many tons of French Wines were yearly Imported, Report to the House, That 4 l. per Tun laid upon French Wines, would, all Deductions allowed, bring in yearly 350000 l. Mr. solicitor took the Chair. And 'twas thereupon Resolved, That the 4 l. per Tun, to be laid on French Wines, for the raising of 300000 l. be continued from the First of December, 1685. yearly, for 9 years and a half. To which the House agreed, and Mr. solicitor was ordered to bring in a Bill on the Debates of the House, with a Clause of Loan for the said Imposition of 4 l. per Tun for the said 9 years and a half, from the First of December 1685. And then adjourned. Veneris 20. die Novembris. 1685. A Message from the King by the Gentleman Usher of the Black-Rod. Mr. Speaker, It is His Majesty's Pleasure, this Honourable House do Attend him immediately in the House of Peers. Where being come, the Lord Chancellor, by His Majesty's Directions, said as followeth. My Lords, and you the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses of the House of Commons, I am Commanded by His Majesty to let you know, that it is His Majesty's Pleasure, for many weighty Reasons, that this Parliament be prorogued till the 10th. day of February next. And accordingly this Parliament is prorogued till the 10th. day of February next. Dissolved. FINIS.