A LETTER TO Dr. WILLIAM NEEDHAM, IN anwer To the third Letter by him licenced Written to FATHER LEWIS SABRAN OF THE SOCIETY of JESUS. WHEREIN The said LETTER is EXAMINED and CONFUTED.  
With Allowance.  
LONDON, Printed by Henry Hills, Printer to the Kings Most Excellent Majesty, for His household and chapel; And are to be sold at his Printing-house on the Ditch-side in blackfriars, MDCLXXXVIII.   

Reverend Sir,  
EVER since the Station I am in, hath required of me to publish some Sheets in defence of the Catholic Faith; it hath been my hard Lot, that no Adversary has entred into the List against me: but a Man of so little Temper and so much gull, that his Answers have been a continued pattern of insolent Scurrility and disingenuous Petulancy.  
He hath wisely concealed his Name, conscious that so abusive a Pen, in a Subject where Charity alone should guide it; could beget for him from all judicious Readers but as much contempt as he cast dirt upon me; and I will be so Charitable as not to divulge it.  
But since I must own that I blushy as much to see myself engaged with such a person; as I would, were I found Arguing a case with some Impudent Scold at Billingsgate: a Discourse with such reviling tongues, tho maintained with all calmness, never befiting a Person of any Sense and Modesty; you must give me leave Sir to contend no more with that nameless piece of Confidence, but to address myself to you, since you have condescended to put your name to those Cavils and Slanders, and to abet them by licencing them to pass the Press.  
'tis true; that a Minister abuse a Jesuit with the foulest Language, when he cannot oppose to his proofs any solid Reason or Authority; 'tis but a trick of course. I have red in some measure the most famed Books, in which such Men have pretended to answer the close and pressing Discourses of Catholic Divines; and I can justly give to almost all of them, that Character which I find in the 57. or 58th. Psalm Verse 5. Furor illis secundum similitudinem serpentis, sicut aspidis surdae& obturantis aures suas. As if they had deafened themselves against the loudest truths, they pass by as insignificant the most convincing Arguments; and make it their whole concern by Cavils and Slanders to darken in vulgar Eyes the Reputation of their Adversaries; then they rest satisfied, if by thus wounding them, they can disgorge their gull and ease their peevish Humours.  
St. Hierom complained of their earliest Leaders for using the like Method. 
Epist. 24. Apud. Aug.  Quod solum possunt, nos oderunt per quos putant se libertatem docendae haereseos perdidisse. All they can do( says he) is to hate us, because they think we hinder them from Communicating freely the Infection of their Heresies. Hence have taken their rise those black unconscionable Calumnies, by which, when they could reach it, they have taken away our Lives: to this end of late years was singled out against us the Minister Oa— their Fury being now disarmed, they turned the Stream of those Calumnies on the Catholic Church by misrepresenting her Doctrine; and again, when all the false Colours of those Misrepresentations are wiped off: those Slanders, that Scurrilous Language fall on them who appear in the defence of those catholic Truths: for which double Service the Minister G— seems to have been singled out. They are both equally well qualified for the purpose, because neither can blushy.  
To both, 
l. de Gest. Pel. c. 36.  we return, not with Anger but Compassion the Sentence of St. Augustin, which he applied to Julian the Pelagian; Sicut falsa sunt Crimina quae objicitis, ita falsa sunt dogmata quae fingitis nobis: said dicite quantum potestis omne malum adversum nos mentientes, nos tantummodo adversum vos Christianam fidem& Catholicam defendemus,& quid opus est nobis reddere similia maledicta& non potius Evangelio credere, atque gaudere quod ex istis falsissimis maledictis vestris nobis merces augetur in Coelis. As the Crimes you accused us of were forged, so are the Tenets you charge us with; but continue to say what evil you can, assaulting us with your untruths, our whole business shall be to defend against you Christian and Catholic Faith: and indeed what reason have we to answer you with like Scurrility, when we ought rather to believe the Gospel, and to rejoice that those your most false Aspersions increase our reward in Heaven. Our faith requires no such defence, Truth scorns to use such unlawful Arms I will not therefore take them up, but calmly make out the Force and Evidence of the proofs which I lately offered, to show that the Invocation of Saints practised now in the Catholic Church, is the same with that which the Holiest Doctors and purest Churches of the fourth and fifth Century, made a part of their Devotion: and I will clear them from all the Calumnies set forth in the third Letter directed to me, to the licence whereof you put your Name, which obliges me, Reverend Doctor, to purge myself to you.  
The nameless Minister having owned, that if the Roman Church had proceeded no farther in her Devotion towards the Blessed Saints, than the Fathers and the Catholic Church of the fourth and fifth Century had warranted them by their Examples, he did not see how his Church could have divided itself from that Communion without the guilt of a causeless Schism: hereupon I made out that what he himself had been forced to aclowledge of the Devotion payed to deceased Saints by the first Ages, was more than our present practices could reach unto, and then I challenged him to show in what points the Catholic Church, now( as ever) in Communion with the Church of Rome, had varied by excess from those Primitive times on this Subject of Invocation of Saints or to own his Congregation Schismatical, as far as that pretence coloured the Separation. I expected three Months an Answer to this Challenge,( how vain his excuse is for that backwardness I shall hereafter evidently show,) it came out at last, and he assigned it in three points. I published a Sheet in which I made out by undeniable matters of Fact, the nullity of his supposed Alterations to which he rejoined his third Scurrilous Letter, which I shall now examine, and consult your second thoughts, to know whether by them you still approve his Answer.  
The first point, he stated the difference in, betwixt the present Invocation of Saints used in the Catholic Church, and that practised in the fourth and fifth Century, was, that the Church of Rome doth use direct Invocation or formal Prayer to Saints, whereas the Primitive Church used only such Addresses or Requests as are made from one friend to another. In answer to this, I made out by plain Instances, which are the fairest proofs in such matters of Fact, that the Fathers of the fifth Century, and of the fourth Offered with as Formal an Invocation, equally Humble, Submissive and Devout Prayers, with any that are in present use amongst Catholics, let us see what he has answered to this.  
First, I directed him to his own friends, the Centuriators of Magdeburg, the most famous Writers of Church History amongst the Reformed Congregations, I  told him that in their fourth Century and fourth Chapter of it, he would find these words of St. Athanasius cited out of his Book de Incarnatione verbi, if you Worship the Man Christ because the Word of God dwelleth there, at the same time Worship also the Saints on God's account, who hath his dwelling in them. I proceeded to offer this following Prayer of the same Saint, cited by those Authors in the same Chapter. harken Daughter of David and Abraham, and stoop Thy Ears to our Prayers, and forget not Thy People. We lift up our voice to Thee, remember us Holy Virgin, which didst remain after Child-birth a Virgin, and return us for these inconsiderable Speeches great Gifts and the Riches of your Graces, You who are full of Grace, hail, most Gracious, the Lord is with thee; intercede O Mistress, O Lady, O Queen and Mother of God. Then I asked him whether he approved of the Comments which those his Reformed Historians put to this Text, to wit, 'tis wonderful that so great a Doctor should writ thus— these Words breath Idolatry. What Answer is returned? whole Shoals of bitter and peevish Invectives against me; he most disingenuously dissembles that I cited the Centuriators for this, and offered these two citations as brought by them, apud Centur, 'tis on them, all he says must fall, 'tis those his Reformed Historians that are the pleasant Men who venture upon things with so much Ignorance and Confidence together, who pretend to bear all down with dint of Confidence, who commit whatever vile abuse of Athanasius's works, whatever blander is found here: but such Birds make no difficulty to defile their own Nest; but d● you, Reverend Doctor, by licencing such Frauds, approve of these unconscionable, fly Insinuations and false Aspersions. I know the second Sentence is taken out of the Oration upon the annunciation, suspected even by Baronius and Bellarmin not to be St. Athanasius's, because it plainly Condemns the Heresies of Nestorius and the Monothelites, yet was not cited against them: therefore I cited both apud Centur, as offered by his great Reformed Annalists, and to show how little Authority the greatest Fathers have with these men, when they believe them to make evidently against them. But now let us Examine this sentence; for, the Minister to keep his hand in, must falsify it, and misapply it. Thus it stands in the Cullen Translation, which I have by me of the Year 1617. If you Adore the Man Christ because the word of God dwells there, in the same manner Adore also the Saints on the account of God, who hath his dwelling in them. Now that above the Holy Ghost, that is, above God a man be honoured and glorified, is the highest impiety. These are the Holy Doctors words, who reprehends Samosatenus only for acknowledging Christ to be a mere Man, and yet adoring him above the Holy Ghost; but he not reprehending Samosatenus for saying that an Honour or Worship would be due to Christ, though he were but a pure Man in whom God dwelleth by Grace and Glory; but urging that on the same account the Saints might be Honoured and Worshipped, the Centuriators had reason to city him as supporting the Worshipping of Gods Saints: for though Christ had been but a Man in whom God in a particular manner dwelled, to whom he had given all Power in Earth and in Heaven, he might and ought to have been prayed unto, though not as God; to have been Worshipped though not by Divine Worship, and above the Holy Ghost true God.  
The next Citation, and the first I produced as taken from the Author, is of St. Cyril of Alexandria, in the Council of Ephesus. The words were these, which I will lay down here more at large. Hail in all our Names Holy Mother of God, most Excellent Ornament of the whole World, unextinguishable Lamp, Crown of Virginity, sceptre of right doctrine, Temple never to be destroyed, dwelling place of him that cannot be contained within any place, Mother and Virgin by whom he is name blessed in the Gospels, who comes in the name of our Lord. Hail you that did bear in your holy Virgin-Womb him that is immense and incomprehensible, by whom the Holy Trinity is Glorified and Adored the Universal World over, by whom Heaven Exults, by whom Angels and Archangels rejoice, by whom the Devils are put to flight, &c. Then he concludes, that none can sufficiently praise that Glorious Virgin, and ends his whole discourse with these words, Let us fear and worship the undivided Trinity, Celebrating with Praises Mary the Ever-Virgin, to wit, the Holy Temple of God, and her Son, and immaculate Spouse. That you may judge with greater certainty of the exactness and meaning of this Quotation, I offer a part of it to you Doctor in its Original. {αβγδ}, &c.  
This was plain and full; what answer is returned me? first a Cavil at my saying he spoken it in the name of the whole Council. I affirm it again, for as Baronius proves this Oration was recited at the second Action or Session of the Council, that Church of St. Maries was the Place the Council was held in, the Bishops were then gathered together, it being the 23d. day of July, to them all and in their Name spoken St. Cyril, who presided as Pope Celestine's legate. What could a Title prefixed to St. Cyril's Oration signify in opposition to this: and yet the Minister must falsify it by putting the word Bishops in it, whereas the words are, when seven went down to S. Maries Church there, which relates to those who entred in with St. Cyril: he spoken to their full Assembly when he begun with these words, I see joy and cheerfulness in this Assembly of Saints, who invited by the Holy, both Mother of God and Ever Virgin, did with a willing and ready mind Convene. I hope Doctor, I had reason to say the Saint spoken in the Name of that Council. Next he tells me this is no Prayer, but a Salutation of the Virgin. This is a Blunder indeed! so that the Prophet David did not pray to God, but Salute him only by all those Psalms made up with the Praises of Gods Mercy and Power; so that Praises offered to God is no Prayer, and David did think on nothing less than Prayer when he said apud te laus mea in Ecclesia Sanctorum, 
Psal. 21.26.  that he offered to God his Praises in the Congregation of Saints; and that holy Prophet wonderfully mistook when he called the Praises of God the best of Offerings, 
Psal. 49.  a Sacrifice; immola deo Sacrificium laudis— Sacrificium laudis honorificabit me, offer to God a Sacrifice of praise— the Sacrifice of Praises will honour me. Is this your Verdict Doctor? But thirdly, I am with much heat accused: for applying to the Virgin what was said by the Saint, of her Womb, a sad mistake indeed! {αβγδ} must not be by whom, relating to the Virgin, but by reason of which relating to Christ in her Womb: but Doctor, did you not blushy when you red this gross Cheat, which any Grammar Scholar can so easily find out, and yet had a thought of licencing it? Was not that {αβγδ} in the very immediate period, where not one word yet was said of the Virgins Womb? Here I might enlarge myself, if I had a Vein for Reviling, but I only nakedly ask your judgement.  
My third Citation was out of St. Gregory Nyssen, and his Prayer to St. Theodore was as follows. Martyr, use the liberty you enjoy to speak for your fellow Servant: you have conquered the World, but you have not forgotten the Passions and the Necessities our human Condition is liable unto: ask for peace, that those public meetings may continue, that the enraged and wicked Barbarians may not plunder and destroy our Churches and Altars, that no profane and impious man tread the holy things under foot: for we that have been preserved untouched and alive, do own ourselves obliged to you for that Blessing, and will ask your Protection and Security for the future. Could a fuller, a more devour, submissive Prayer be framed, or that expressed a greater Faith and confidence in the prayers of Saints? To own the greatest Blessings to have been obtained by a Saints Intercession, that for it we are obliged to him, on that account to have again recourse to him, and to expect his protection if asked, and from it a future security, if this be not as formal an Invocation as any Catholic ever used, I know not what Invocation is. I crave your opinion of it, Doctor: but what Answer is returned to this? that he hath Answered it already. And what Answer did he give before? 'tis plainly a Rhetorical apostrophe why? He does suppose the Martyr himself to be present there, and to hear what he said, as well as any of the Congregation did. I do conceive this Argument never entred before into any mans thoughts: St. Gregory did suppose St. Theodore to be present, and to hear what he said, therefore he did not pray to him; do you Doctor allow of these doughty Proofs? but what satire ever blew hot and could so at one breath? Before, this Minister had  told us the Saints were prayed unto where they were believed to be present, and he repeats it just after: Yet now, St. Gregories words shall be no Prayer, because he believes the Saint he addresses himself unto, to be present, and to hear him. Is this the Answer then? Not the whole. St. Gregory says he, further supposed, that the Martyr had got leave to come down, and be present at their Assemblies ( all which are pleasant fancies.) Did you observe, Doctor, that it was so eminent a Saint as Gregory Nyssen these words were spoken of, and yet have you so far lost all respect for those blessed Spirits as to licence them? But St. Gregory desires St. Theodore to get the rest of the Martyrs, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John to pray for the several Churches Planted by them, whereby he shows his belief that they did not hear him. This is as good an Inference as if I should say St. Paul asked the prayers of the Romans to God for him, therefore he believed that God did not hear him, for those prayers were to be directed to God.  
The next Father Cited by me was St. Gregory Nazianzen, thus to St. Basil, O sacred and divine man look down on us from Heaven and either by your prayers mortify that sting of the flesh which God hath given us for our instruction, or move us to bear it with a courageous mind, and direct our whole life to that which is most fitting; and when we part out of this life, receive us there in your Tabernacles. To this was added a like Prayer of the same Father to St. Cyprian. What answer is to be expected here? He indulges himself in a Rhetorical way, and he proves it because that, for all his familiar talk in some of his Orations to the Saints, he did not believe that they could hear him. Could this be proved, it would be home, he thus attempts it. This is plain from his {αβγδ} to Constantius. Reverend Doctor could you let this pass? this disingenuous juggling? Constantius lived a peevish Arian, a Persecutor, and it was but a dubious report that he Repented at his death: St. Gregory speaking to this Emperors Soul, of the Salvation whereof there was but small hopes, and a weak probability, says if thou hast any sense, any knowledge, and can any one in his wits infer from thence that this Father did not believe the glorious Souls of the blessed Saints heard his Prayers? Reverend Doctor do you allow this parity?  
I brought next the Prayer of St. Maximus to St. Agnes. O most shining to the eyes of Christ, most beautiful to the eyes of the Son of God, most acceptable to the Angels and archangels, with what fervent Prayer we can, we beg of you that you will vouchsafe to remember us, that he may grant us forgiveness of our sins, who hath bestowed on you the reward of your labours. By these plain words those insignificant shifts of Rhetorical Figures were wholly defeated: here Prayers, and fervent Prayers, are Offered in the very term. What answer shall we have here then? Even none; he needs not trouble himself about it he says, because 'tis past St. Augustins time, to which he referred me. But First. Is it past the fifth Century, about which our debate was? Secondly. We find this Holy Bishop subscribing to the Synodical Epistle of the Council of Milan, over which Eusebius the Metropolitan presided, in the year 452. St. Augustin died in the year 430. So that this holy Bishop Maximus, tho he outlived him, yet was contemporary with him. How then, Reverend Doctor, come you to approve this new Chronology?  
The next Father was St. Hilary of Arles, whose Prayer to St. Honoratus was this. Ever remember us in the Presence of that God which you attend, singing that new song, and following the Lamb whither soever he goes. You are our Patron, the Interpreter of our Prayers, an acceptable and powerful Protector, present the Prayers of your Flock Offered at your Monument, and obtain, that in a perfect union both Bishop and People may attain what you have ordered and delivered. I meet with a wonderful answer to this plain and pious Prayer, to wit. He does not pray to him but desires as he was their Patron to continue so, which speaks no more than that intercession which was then believed. Do you own this, Reverend Doctor? If so, then in this point you pass to our side, for we believe now no other Intercession but this, to wit, that the Saints remember us, be our Patrons, Offer our Prayers to God, received from us at their Shrines, and obtain for us the blessings we entreat for. Here indeed the Minister answers ingenuously, but here also he yields and grants the whole Point.  
The following Father I produced was Nectarius, Patriarch of Constantinople, who preceded S. Chrysostom. This prelate having given an Account why S. Theodores Feast was ever kept on the Saturday of the first week in Lent, to wit, In Thanksgiving to the Saint, for having in a Vision forewarned the Patriarch of Constantinople, that sate during the Persecution of Julian; that the apostate designed to pervert or destroy all the Christians, by permitting no Meat to be sold in the Market, but such as had been Offered to the Idols, and besprinkled with the blood of those Abominable Victims: and advised him to prepare such a Provision of Bisquet as would suffice for his Flock to feed upon whilst the Markets were thus shut up to them; and for having thus secured their Religion and Lives: he makes this following Prayer to the Saint, to obtain a continuation of his Protection against the worse Julian, the Enemy of Mankind; who then, and at that present Persecuted the People of God. These be the words of his Prayer. O splendour of the Martyrs, glory of the Saints, O worthy gift of God, O unconquered keeper and defender of the Faithful, be not unmindful of our Poverty and Dejectedness, but vouchsafe thou always to pray for us, O most admirable Man! nor do thou despise us, who are daily assailed by Julian ( the spiritual one, who both then and now is author of evil,) the Enemy of our Souls, for we believe that you live after death; thou then who art yet alive in Christ, and standest near unto him, endeavour by thy Prayers to make him gracious unto us thy Servants, that freed by thee from the present miseries, we may attain to the happiness that is reserved there for us. Can a more formal Prayer than this is, be found in use amongst the Catholics of this Age? what answer is opposed to it? First, That he knows not where to find this Work of Nectarius, and yet the Book of Bellarmin de Script. Eccles. soon after cited by him, directs him to find it in the sixth Tome of Lypoman fol. 71. then he will have it to be spurious, because Julian was dead twenty years before Nectarius was Installed Patriarch, as if the very words of the Prayer,( even without the Parenthesis, which in Transcribing was casually left out) did not evidently make out that it was the threats of the ever-persecuting Julian, the Enemy of Mankind, that he asked to be protected against, that first apostate from God, the Devil. So all the blustering Storm of Cavils raised by the Minister fall of themselves, and this Prayer remains an evident instance of the Invocation of Saints in the fourth Age. Reverend Doctor, do you not own it for such?  
The last Prayer I offered was that of S. 
In Frag. ch. Pat.  Greg. Nazianz. O Venerable Virgin, Chast and most Happy, hear my voice benignly, and grant me that which is chief of all, to wit, that departing from this life I may find thee to be my Patron. His Answer is, that no Poet can be in the Mode without calling upon his Muse: how this Answer fits that Prayer I leave to your second thoughts, Reverend Doctor.  
Because this Minister thinks there is a strange charm in some words, which he misplaces, and ever offers in lieu of Arguments, especially in this Subject, the word Invocation, I added the plain Sentences of S. Basil, S. Greg. Nyssen and S. Augustin teaching it in the very term.  
First, St. Greg. in his Oration on St. Theod. M. 
{αβγδ}  The Christians call on the Martyr as on Gods Minister, who being Invocated by them is able to Impetrate for them what favours he pleases. How could this Saint have explained fuller his sense, or our doctrine? Sure we shall meet with a home Answer to this. St. Gregory Nazianzen hath no such Oration; 'tis true Sir, but St. Gregory Nyssen hath, and the Minister could not mistake my meaning, that self same Oration having just before been cited and owned by him, so that he could not but see the Erratum of Nazianz. for Nyssen: but he was glad thus to avoid answering to so plain a Sentence: is this fair and sincere dealing? methinks Reverend Doctor, you should have rectified these little tricks and sly shifts before you set your hand to licence them.  
St. Basil is as evidently plain, the Martyr called by his name, sheweth himself present to as many as call, by his works: behold he uses the same terms which express the Invocation of God in Zachary, they shall call my name and I will hear them: his answer is, that I city not the place, and he will not look for it. A quick dispatch: however, against he is in a better humour, I tell him the words are to be found in St. Basils 26th. Homily of S. Mammas. What Verdict, Reverend Doctor, will you pass on this so plain a Sentence, past in favour of the Invocation of Saints?  
The last I produced was S. Augustins Observation on the Blessing of Job, Gen. 48. to wit, that not only Exaudition but Invocation is used in reference to Men as well as to God. Two answers I find opposed to this Quotation. The first, all he means is, that the word Invocation is used in a civil respect to Men as well as in a Religious respect to God; if this were his whole meaning, it were enough to discover the Vanity of the Minister, in printing ever the word Invocation in a large character in all the Sentences which he produces against us, and which speak all of Divine Worship, to persuade his Vulgar Readers that all Invocation is a Divine Worship. But who authorises him to make S. Augustin speak, what never came into his mind of Civil and Religious respects. He could not be so ignorant as not to know that S. Austin allows Religious( another hard word) respect to Gods blessed Saints in express terms, and that writing against the Heretic Faustus, 
L. 20. C. 21.  who had calunniated the Christians for honouring the sepulchers of the Martyrs, by saying, that they had turned the Idols into this. The Christian People( says the Holy Doctor) Celebrate together the memory of the Martyrs with a Religious Solemnity, both to excite to an imitation of them, and that they may be partakers of their Merits and be assisted by their Prayers. The Ministers second answer is, this very Father hath fully secured us from taking it as to Men in a Religious Sense, when he tells us that the Martyrs names were recited indeed during the Divine Service, but they were not Invocated by the Priest who did Officiate. Do you approve, Reverend Doctor, such curtailed Citations, that insinuate the very contrary meaning to that of an Author? What naming of the Martyrs is allowed by S. Austin, what Invocation by the Priest that Officiates is denied? For he doth express himself fully in both; that Commemoration the Holy Father owns is by which we recommend ourselves to their Prayers, 
Serm. 17. de Verb. Ap. c. 1.  and the Invocation he denys to the Priest is only this, We Offer to thee O Peter, O Paul, O Cyprian, and the reason he gives for it, their Oblation they make to God who hath crwoned the Martyrs. And is not all this the Catholic doctrine of the Church of Rome?  
The Minister pretends next, 
L. 20. Contra Faust. C. 21.  that from these words of S. Paul, how shall they Invocate or call upon him in whom they had not believed, it follows as S. Pauls Sense, that no one ought to be Invocated but he that is believed to be God. Tho the silliness of the Inference be patent to the most careless eye, yet I had Confuted it by a most Natural and unanswerable instance, which is this: that it would equally follow, that because no one can love God who believes not in him, no one must be beloved but God: So that each Wife that loves her Husband, each Son that loves his Father, or Subject his Prince, is an Idolater: And indeed, is not God as good as he is great: 'tis true, God will be worshipped, but 'tis as true that he challenges that we love him with all our Heart, with all our Soul, with all our Strength: whoever then pretends that an inferior Religious Worship, or Invocation, gives to Creatures the Worship we owe to God, must equally hold that Charity to our Neighbour is injurious to God. What Answer doth this conclusive Argument receive from the Minister? He tells me he will pass it by, and he is as good as his word. Is this, Reverend Doctor, a Method you allow of?  
Now we fall to the second difference, which the Minister had offered, betwixt our present Invocation of Saints and the practise of the fourth and fifth Century. 'tis this, those Requests were made at the memories of those Martyrs to whom they were presented, and who were believed to be present, tho invisible. If I can prove that the Martyrs had such Requests offered them where their blessed Spirits were not believed to be present, or at several and distant places, the Minister must yield that he was mistaken in assigning this second difference, there being none such. I offered towards it the following Authorities, and I shall consider the Answer he returns.  
The first is St. Augustin; 
De cura pro Mor. c. 16.  The solution of this question is beyond the reach of my understanding, how the Martyrs help those which most certainly are helped by them, whether or no they be themselves present at one time in so different places, &c. Behold the holy Doctor is certain the Martyrs help their Clients at one time in different places, yet uncertain whether they were themselves present: it was not his persuasion then that the Saints help was to be required, only where they were believed to be present; this is a clear demonstration. What answer gives the Minister? if it was past his understanding to solve it, it had certainly been his best way not to have meddled with a thing which had no certainty, and which no finite Nature was capable of; what, Reverend Doctor, do you then allow this young Sophister thus to revile and flout at St. Augustin? Is this all the respect owed to so great a Doctor, so enlightened a Saint? But is this an answer? Yes 'tis a sufficient owning that none can be given.  
The next witness I produce is St. Gregory Nazianzen, 
Orat, 12.  who having largely shewed how the Martyrs Cure Diseases, put the Devils to flight, &c. he adds, where their Bodies only are, the same effect is had as from their Souls, whether they be touched or worshipped; the Ministers Answer is, this is directly for me, but your Ignorance is too great to let you see it: what name, Reverend Doctor, shall I give to this Answer? The Martyrs received Addresses( says the Minister) only where they were believed to be present. I say on the contrary, where only their Bodies were believed to be present, they were piously touched and worshipped, and the same favours were received as if their holy Spirits had been present. St. Gregory says the same, in the very same terms;( that's for me, says the Minister.) 'tis so indeed, if he will learn the Truth, and abandon his Errors.  
The third witness is St. Ambrose in his Sermon on the holy Martyrs, Nazarius, and Celsus. Have you Invocated the Martyr( says he) he hears you every where, who is honoured in the Martyr according to his Dispensation, who weighs your vows and dispenses his gifts, in so much is a nearer presence of the Intercessor granted as the Faith of the Client is more devout. Behold how any Martyr may be Invocated every where, how all those whose fervent Devotion obtain it of God, shall find them present to hear their Prayers, and to bring them the desired blessings. Could any thing be answered to this? He tells me there is no such Title in the Edition of Forben, which he hath as a Sermon in natali SS. Naz.& Celsi: and he would not turn over five Tomes. This is an easy slight to pass by what a Minister dares not stand against: This Sermon of St. Ambrose hath been cited a thousand times, is known to every one that hath ever looked in that holy Fathers Books. It is his fourteenth Sermon, pag. 144. in the fifth Tome, of the Edition of Paris, 1661.  
I added St. Gregory the Great, 
Dial. l. 2. c. ult.  affirming, that greater Miracles are often wrought where the Saints bodies are not, that our mind being fixed upon God, our Faith may have a greater merit, forasmuch as we know they repose not there, and yet believe that they fail not to hear and grant our requests. This was unanswerable, and therefore to be slighted, by saying, he comes too late, but for what? to prove the belief of the fifth Age? St Gregory did not limit what he said to his time only, and I am sure he is a good witness, to what was practised and believed in the Century which he immediately followed.  
I advanced next, as evident witnesses to the Truth which I defended, those Fathers who owned that the same Saints relics lay in several places, were honoured in, and carried about to distant places; the evident import whereof is, that Saints may be worshipped in many, and if you please, in a thousand different places: in a word, wherever the God of those Saints is,( as St. Ambrose observes) who every where hears us, manifests those Prayers to his Saints, and grants the blessings asked by their Intercession. 
Jamb. 18. de Virt.  I produced first St. Gregory Nazianzen, attesting that a little dust, the least splinter of their decayed bones, a lock of their hair, their clothes, some drops tho almost worn off of their blood, have as much Worship paid them as the whole Body: that the very calling a place by the Martyrs name, was known to him to have been of as much efficacy as if the whole Martyr had lain there. This was too plain to be disguised by the Minister, therefore taking the advantage( I suppose) of one Letter misplaced in the Margin of de veirt for devirt. he tells me the piece I quote is not in his works: to assure him, I find it there, I will set down the Original words {αβγδ}, &c.  
Theodoret followed next, and his Evidence was this. 
Serm. 8. Contra Grac.  Their Bodies are not each in their own Monument, but being divided amongst the Cities and Villages, are by them esteemed the preservers of their Souls and Bodies, and called their Physicians, and honoured us their Protectors and Guards: and making use of their intercession to God, they by them obtain Divine benefits, and the divided bodies retain their power entire. To this so full a charge against him the Minister hath no answer to give, but tells me, I must seek out his former Answers. I have sought, and I find no other but this, that if the Book hath not been tampered with, Theodoret contradicts himself elsewhere. Do you Reverend Doctor allow of this Answer? However, I will vindicate Theodoret from this false Aspersion within few Lines, where the Council of Laodicea will come in my way.  
I produced next S. Augustin, relating several Miracles wrought, to his certain knowledge, at the relics of St. Stephen, in the different places they were honoured at: and here I meet with an answer that deserves a Severe Censure from any Christians Pen, I leave it Reverend Doctor to be received from your second thoughts. The Minister tells us, that had he room, he would give the Reader a very diverting account about their being found. And are then Gods Miraculous favours, attested by whole Nations, recorded by the holiest and learnedst of the Fathers, to be ridiculed and made the subject of a very diverting account? One may easily guess of what block this chip is hewed, at what Gamaliel's feet this pious Christian hath been brought up; to wit, at his who made it the main work of his Comical Satyrs to ridicule by a piece of most profane and unchristian wit Gods Saints, to traduce their most pious actions, and the most miraculous favours bestowed by Almighty God, exposing both to the lewd ralleries of loose Libertines, equally applicable to the actions of the patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, and to the Miracles related in the holy Scripture.  
I offered next St. German to whom this iceland owes the Expulsion of the Pelagian heresy, 
Bedae Hist. l. 1. c. 18.  carrying about him in a reliquary for his protection and safe-guard the relics of all the Apostles, and many Martyrs, the very Dust that lay about St. Albans Monument: by a touch of those relics, and the Intercession of those Saints, restoring sight to a blind Woman. The Minister hath recourse here to his familiar shift, barely saying, this is not to the purpose. Reverend Doctor, if you licence such Answers, you will refuse your Name I see to no scribbler, and will never want Answerers( but such) to what ever Evidence comes out against your Church.  
We are come to the last difference branched by the Minister into these three points: The first, that those requests and interpellations to Saints, were not commanded by the Primitive Church, whereas they are enjoined by the Church of Rome. The second, that they were not authorised by any Councils in the first five Centuries, and that they are by the Council of Trent. The last, that they were not used in the public Offices, as now they are.  
I accused him of untruth in the first, the Church not Commanding Invocation of Saints, not enjoining it. His Answer is, that I am angry, and run into nonsense, for who else says he, would talk of a matter of practise, being Commanded as an obligation of Catholic Faith. Do you allow this, Reverend Doctor? is it then no obligation of Faith in your Church to pay Civil Obedience to your King? Nay, to believe in God, to hope in him, to love him, is it no obligation belonging to your Faith? for all these things are matter of practise. But the Minister had no other way to cover his misrepresentation, and any colour must serve to cover him when he should blushy.  
I cited four Councils authorizing the Invocation of Saints; and first the General Council of Chalcedon, in which the Bishops belonging to the Patriarchat of Constantinople, publicly in the Council, and unopposed, used this Invocation to Flavianus, Flavianus lives after death, that the Martyr pray for us, more than this our Litanies to the Saints do not express. What answers the Minister? He tells us a long Story known to every one of Bassianus and Stephen contending for the bishopric of Ephesus, that the Authority of Flavianus who had Communicated with Bassianus, being brought by him, the Bishops of the Obedience of Constantinople supported him: then having made way for a Forgery, he translates thus my Citation, thus falsifies that Council, the Martyr shall entreat you for us. Reverend Sir, are not these the original words, 
The louvre Print of the Year 644.  {αβγδ}. Do not all Translations deliver it thus, Flavianus post Mortem vivit, Martyr oret pro nobis; but falsifications are the usual shifts of this Minister.  
The second was the Council of Gangrae, Can. 20. if any one through pride as believing himself perfect( that is, not needing the Intercession of Saints) accuse those meetings which are had at the places where holy Martyrs repose, or in their Churches, or believes that such Oblations as are made there ought to be slighted, be he accursed. 'tis evident that the Curses of this Council fall upon those who have taken down the Monuments of Saints Erected in our Churches, defaced their Memories, cast away or hide their holy relics. What answers the Minister? He calls the Parenthesis, which I added for a clearer Exposition, my folly, and that's his chief Answer. To make it out he tells us, this Council was called against the Disciples of Eustathius, guilty of that gross Error mentioned by St. Paul of forbidding to mary, that would not Communicate with Married people, would not receive the Eucharist at the hands of Married Priests,( this is put in by the Minister in favour of his fellow Ministers Wives, whereas this council never favoured or countenanced Priests living in Wedlock, all Councils, Fathers, and Churches, Condemned and deposed all those who having received holy Orders, pretended to a Sacrilegious Marriage, till the late blessed Reformation found out the new way of propagating the Gospel, and increasing the Godly.) But despised not only them but the Christian Assemblies, at the Memories of the Martyrs. Then he asks me what all this is to Invocation of Saints. St. Basil in his 78. Epistle, and Epiphanius in haer. 75. Sozomenus and others, and the Canons of this Council give us a different account of the many Heresies of this Bishop of Sebaste in armoniac. The Synodical Letter of this Council to the Bishops of armoniac, accuses him, Quod loca Sanctorum Martyrum vel basilicas contemneret, 
Apud Joan. Quintinus.  & omnes qui illuc conveniunt& Sacramenta conficiunt reprehenderet. He and his Followers despised the places or Churches where the Martyrs relics were honoured, reprehended those who Assembled in them, and those Priests( whatever they were) who Consecrated in them. Is not this followed by your Church, Reverend Doctor? and was this Citation nothing to my purpose?  
The next Council I produced was that of Laodicea held in the Year 320, as allowing the worshipping of the true Martyrs of Christ, and mentioning Churches built in their honor over their Monuments, whither the Christians resorted. The Minister for want of a better Answer, tells me in the language familiar to him, that I quoted this Council out of the abundance of my Ignorance: Let us see whether his two Reasons are better than his Words. I had noted in the margin the 6. and 34. Canon. His first Answer is this, the sixth Canon orders that Heretics shall not be permitted to go to Gods House as long as they continue in heresy. It doth so, but why is the Title of it omitted, which declares what Churches those were? is it not de Hareticis intrantibus in Ecclesias Martyrum, of Heretics entering into the Martyrs Churches: doth this encourage no more the praying to Saints, than the first Chapter of Genesis? were not Churches Erected in their Honor, that people should Assemble in them to honor them? the 34. forbids the Christians to leave those true Martyrs of Christ. It was then to them the Christians resorted in their Assemblies. And is all this besides the purpose? Besides the Ministers I conceive, but not besides mine. What will you say to the Ninth Canon then, which satisfies us to what end Christians met in the Churches of Martyrs, 
Dyonis. Exi.  when it forbids to Assemble in those of the Heretics Martyrs, Orationis causâ vel sanitatis, to pray, or to obtain health; Petendae curationis, as Isidorus Mercator translates it. But for a second Answer he tells us, That this Council in the 35. Canon Condemns Invocation of Angels, and consequently of Saints as Idolatry, and a for saking of Christ. That [ as] is foilled in, that a vulgar Reader may not perceive what this Council Condemns, to wit, the very Idolatry of the Pagans. Because this Canon and Theodorets Observation on it, is often made use of by this Minister, I will set down a short account of it. Simon Magus with his Disciples, Menander, Saturninus, Cerinthus, Celsus, &c. esteemed the Angels as Gods of an inferior rank, and preferred them to Christ as Governors of the World, by whose supreme Mediation( independently from Christ) our prayers reached the highest God, to whom Sacrifices might be offered, as witness Clemens 6. Constit. St. Irenaeus Lib. 1. C. 20. Epiphanius Haereses 21, 22, 23, 28. Origen in his Books against Celsus, &c. and the very Devils which the Pagans adored, they called Angels and gave out to colour their Idolatry, that they only worshipped Angels, as Tertullian observes, Apolog. cap. 23. against these St. Paul writes Coloss. 3.19. as not holding the head, which is Christ. These as Theodoret Explicates this Canon, did forsake Christ Jesus, and therefore in opposition to these, 
Graec. Aff. l. ●  the same Theodoret, maintains the worshipping of Martyrs, because Christians do not pretend to address themselves to Gods, but pray to the Martyrs of God as divine Men, whom they Invocate and pray to as their Intercessors to God. And could you Reverend Doctor permit this Minister to abuse the Council so far as to teach that it forbid the prayers to Angels and Saints as our Intercessors to God according to the Catholic way? He might as well have said, that Council forbids going to any Church, because it Excommunicates those who resort to the Heretics Churches and Congregations.  
The last Council I cited was the fourth of Carthage, held in the year 368. not only authorizing the Christians to meet in Churches Dedicated to Martyrs, and even wherever any Monument of a Martyr should be, but commanding all Altars should be demolished, if there be not an evident certainty of the relics over which they were erected. This was the most expressive method of authorizing Devotion to the blessed Saints. Yet I must rest satisfied with this Answer only of the Minister, that all this is nothing to the purpose. 
Ep. 137.   
In fine, to S. Augustins Commending the Christians for flocking to the Monuments of Martyrs, there to ask Miraculous Favours, and to some particular Saints for such and such peculiar Graces, to others again for different ones; than which Testimony nothing can more evidently prove a most pious invocation of Saints; all the answer I can obtain from the Minister is, we need not trouble ourselves about him; could you let this slip Reverend Doctor? Is this the Protestant way of answering the plainest authorities from the Fathers? Your Writers or your Cause must be sunk very low when such dregs support it.  
What I pretended in the close was to offer Commemorations of the blessed Virgin and holy Saints, more full and expressive in the ancient Liturgies than any in the present Roman Missals.  
First, 
Catech. 5.  I produced St. Cyril, Patriarch of jerusalem, bearing witness to this Prayer, in the Liturgies of his time, We pray to thee all of us, and offer thee this Sacrifice, so as to make a Commemoration also of those who have slept before us, first of the patriarches, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that God through their Prayers accept of our Prayers. We never say more than this in any Commemoration in our Masses. What answers the Minister? This proves not one jot farther than the belief of the Saints Intercession for those on earth. No? doth it not prove that this intercession is to be asked by us and may be obtained? And what more do we hold or teach? And doth not St. Augustin teach as much when he says that we do Commemorate the Saints at the Holy Table— that they may pray for us.  
I offered most devout Prayers to our blessed Lady and the Saints out of the Liturgies of St. Basil and St. Chrysostom. 
Tract. 84. in Jo.  The Minister first would suppose they have been Interpolated but he knows not how to prove it, and therefore attempts a second Answer, to wit, those prove only that they believed that the Virgin Mother interceded for them. If the Minister means that they believed the Saints interceded equally, whether they were asked to do so or no, and that their prayers in general were equally applied to us whether we asked it or no, 'tis as silly a fancy as could be obtruded: for who asks what will equally and unavoidably happen whether asked or not. Do you Reverend Doctor thus sport with God in your Prayers at your Congregations? I assure you the Catholic Church doth not. If he means that by our Invocations we obtain the particular prayers, or a particular application of the general prayers of the Saints for us, and that consequently it is profitable to call upon the Saints, he grants all that the Council of Trent teaches, and requires to be believed.  
The last I cited was a Preface, which Pelagius the second witnesses to have been of a most long continuance in the Church before his time, and to which St. lo alludes. The Minister answers, it comes too late: great is his skill in Chronology! Our question is touching the Invocation of Saints practised within the first five hundred years: St. lo Presided by his legates over the General Council of Chalcedon, which was held in the year, 451. is not this within the fifth Century?  
Behold, Reverend Doctor, an account of the Letter you have thought fit to licence: I will not by any severe reflections represent to you the character it deserves: I leave it to the Reader, who will be inclined to believe that this Letter is a good proof that the same Spirit guides now-a-days the Pens of the Writers of the Reformed Congregations, which one of their most Renowned Divines did aclowledge to appear in their Writings; 'tis the Learned Zanchius, 
Ep. ad Joa. Sturmium in fin. l. 7.& S. Mycel.  and these are his words. I perceive what manner of Writing very many, let me not say for the most part all, do use in the Churches, as they are called, of the Reformed Gospel: who would seem notwithstanding to be Pastors, Doctors, and Pillars of the Church: the state of the question that it may not be understood, we often of set purpose darken; things which are manifest we impudently deny, things false, without shane we avouch; things plainly impious, we propose as Fundamental Articles of Faith; those that are Orthodox we condemn of heresy; Scriptures at our pleasure we detort to our own Dreams, we boast of Fathers when we will follow nothing less than their Doctrine, to deceive, to calumniate, to rail is familiar with us— so we may but defend our Cause, good or bad, by right or wrong, all other things we turn upside down.  
May this Spirit of Error by the Mercies of God abandon at last you and yours, and the true Light of the World, Christ Jesus by the favourable rays of his Grace, bring you all to the Truth, to the Bosom of that his Church, ever guided by the spirit of Truth, that we may make all again one Flock, under one Pastor. 'tis the hearty wish of,  
LEWIS SABRAN of the Society of JESUS. April 21  
FINIS.