CONVENTS OR NUNNERIES. A LECTURE IN REPLY TO OARDINAL WISEMAN, DELIVERED AT THE AHSEMBLY ROOMS, BATH, ON MONDAY, JUNE 7, 1852. BY THE REV. l\L HOBART SEYMOUR, M.A. REPORTED IN SHORT-HAND. BATH; It. E. PEACH (POCOCK'S LIBRARY), 8, BRIDGE STREET. LONDON: SEELEYS, FLEET STREET, AND HANOVER STREET, HANOVER SQUARE. Price Eightpence. PRINTED BY R. E .• PEACH, BA.T_l'H. A LECTURE. INTRODUCTION. IT is at all times a grave thing to stand before such an assembly 'as the present-to stand before such an amount of intellect, mind, and acumen, all prepared to examine my words, to test my proofs, and to balance my arguments­ all brought, like so many rays of light concentrated by a powerful lens, to pour all its searching light upon every statement that shall fall from me. I feel this fully; I feel it the more as I stand arraigned before you of having made statements, and declining to produce evidence in sup­ port of these statements. I stand arraigned by a Cardinal, the highest official of the Church of Rome in this country; arraigned, it is true, in a little private chapel, where I was not permitted even to whisper the faintest denial of the charge. But I feel that I now stand before a jury, not of twelve men, but of twelve hundred men. I stand before the assembled intelligence, candour, and fair-dealing of my fellow-citizens; and while, with confidence, I plead Not �uilty, I desire to be tried by God and my country. How stands the question between us � r was invited by the ladies of Bath, as all here present are aware, to deliver to them a lecture on the subject of Nunneries. I complied: that lecture has been printed-and it is now before the public. I am free to confess that I was not disposed to ascribe to it much importance; but it seems that others thought it of much more importance, so that they sent to rouse " - the lion in his den, The Douglas in his hall." and the Cardinal himself. comes forth from his sacred enclosure-for the first time, steps into the arena-vflings 4 INTRODUCTION. ,down the gauntlet-denies my facts, and challenges: my proofs. I accept his challenge, and I stand here to re­ deem it. The precise facts are these :-A Roman Catholic gentle­ man, my neighbour, Mr. Stourton, called on me immediately after that lecture, and held a private conversation in my own private residence of more than two hours' continuance. After he withdrew, he committed that conversation to paper, and, without communicating with Ine, without even asking 11\Y consent, he placed that conversation in the hands of t'he Cardinal, to' enable him to know my case, so as the more effectually to answer me. Immediately after this, I received a letter from Mr .. Parfitt, of Midford Castle, in this neighbourhood, and this letter asks of me, cour­ teously, certain information, and the sou�ces of information as to the facts I narrated, I replied to 'him as frankly as I could; and he, without communicating his intention to me, and without asking my leave, placed this my letter in the hands of the Cardinal, to put him in possession of my case, and to enable him thus the more effectually to answer it. Now, sir, I make no complaint of these gentlemen, because to make any complaint would be to place myself on a level with persons capable of so acting. But their so acting has removed from me an delicacy or difficulty as to reading the correspondence which took place. The following is the letter from Mr. Parfitt :- Rev. Sir.-In a lecture on Nunneries, published as delivered by you, in Bath, there are several points of great importance, which, as a Catholic, I feel ought to be fully investigated, and I take the liberty of requesting you to directme to the best means of having it done. 1st. You mention, page 22, a" solemn inquiry" into the dread­ ful state of the convents in Tuscany, made at the request of noble families. The results, you say, are" too horrible to describe," but you "have read the evidence of nuns and abbesses on the occa­ sion." From this I conclude that the evidence, or report on it, was published. I should feel most thankful to you to inform me in what form, or in what work, this is to be found. Even though the work should not have been published, but was accessible to you through SOU,le particular influence, if I can be made ae- INTRODUCTION. 5 quainted with the title of the book I think that, through friends, access to it may be obtained. 2d. You further mention that, in consequence of these dis­ coveries, "the Pope of Rome was constrained to reform and re­ model some of the nunneries, and the Sovereign of Tuscany was obliged to abolish others." Would you be kind enough to give me the date of this reform, and the names of some of the sup­ pressed convents? 3d. You mention, as of your own knowledge, many instances of injustice and cruelty committed in or through convents. Unfor­ tunately, you withhold every clue to verification, so important in amatter likely to be hurtful to all Catholio feelings. To the one mentioned in page 23, I can, perhaps, obtain a clue, as. from persons in Rome, it can be ascertained what married gentleman attends the Cardinal-Vicar in his visitation of con­ vents, and so we can inquire into the frightful statement about his daughter The following, however, I am desirous to obtain information about. Page 20. A nun, when you were in Rome, rushed out of her convent, and plunged into the Tiber, and was drowned. In what year was this? What, and where, was the convent alluded to? When did she throw herself iuto the river J . Pages 50 and 51, are three cases of nuns being sent abroad, in two instances, in consequence, as you lead-us to imply, of some immorality. Would you be good enough to put me in the�y of verifying these two in particular. Give me the name of the con­ vents and the dates; and I pledge myself to have a thorough in­ vestigation made. I trust you will not refuse my requests, for, as a clergyman, you must wish to act fairly and justly. Yet, it is essential to the carrying out of the principle that proofs should be afforded of as­ sertions, so injurious to our character, before an excited and pre­ judiced public. At least, the accused should be afforded the means of self-defence, by being informed of the source of the evidence referred to against them. I am, Rev. Sir, your obedient servant, Midford Castle, May 18th, 1852. C. PARFITT. Such was the letter I received, and to it I gave the fol­ lowing reply at the moment :- Bath, 27, Marlborough Buildings, May 19th, 1852. Sir,-I have to acknowledge the receipt of your favour, and hasten to reply to enquiries so courteously proposed. I had supposed that the affair of the convents in Tuscany,alluded to in my lecture, had been universally known, or I should have stated the detail with more precision. The facts to which I referred occurred at the close of the last century, and the details will be found in De Potter's account of Ricci, Bishop of Pistoia. I saw the work some years ago, and an English translation was, I believe, lately published. It con­ tained the evidence of superiors, nuns, &c., one of the f6)rmer 6 INTRODUCTION fi stating that some of the nuns lived with their confessors more familiarly than married women with their husbands. It-appeared that the confessors had private keys to the nunneries, and slept in them-that each nun had her favourite, &c. All this you will find in De Potter, with the names of all the parties concerned. When you read it you will feel that I might have said much more than I did .. You will also perceive the nature of the reforms introduced into some of these nunneries by the Papal authority, subjecting them to the visitations of the Bishops, and interfering in the ap­ pointment of the confessors, &e. ; also you will perceive how the Grand Duke suppressed some of them, turning them into ,1, species of schools for the instruction of the poor. If you cannot get access to this work, which contains the origi­ nal documents, you will find quite enough in a life of Ricci; written by that accomplished and elegant author-Roscoe. I am sure that when you have informed yourself on this part of your enquiries, you will feel that I have not stated the case as strongly as Imight have done. The truth is that I wished merely to indicate the evils without entering on details that would have awakened the indignation of the meeting against the whole system of nunneries. I dealt with my subject as gently as I could; and I hope there may never prove a necesslty for my speaking more openly or entering publicly upon the details. They must prove painful and distressing to an parties, and might awaken an unfair prejudice against those establishments which are pure. In reference to the other particulars to which you call my at­ tention, and for which you ask authorities, I need scarcely remind you that it, would be highly improper in me to give up the names of informants who have privately confided information to me, especially when. the .partìes are citizens of Rome. You are, of course, aware that a Roman at Rome has not the civil privileges of an Englishman in England; and that if I surrendered the names of my informants, they might be kept for months and years in prison, not only uncondemned, but even untried. You cannot, therefore, as an Englishman yourself, expect that I should betray my informants. But I shall remove one or two mistakes into which you have fallen. You have, apparently, identified the official gentleman men­ tioned page 7 with my acquaintance page 23. You will, on re­ perueat.perccìve that you have IlO grounds for this. And also you seem to imply that because my friend wasmarried and had a family, he could not have been an attendant on the Cardinal Vicar in his visitation of nunneries. But, of course, you are aware that, after having been for years such an attendant, be might marry, and so cease to be such, and obtain an appoint­ ment of a totally different kind. At the same time I may add, that it would seem rather strange to our English feelings that bachelors, instead of married men, are selected for the visitation of nunneries, and that the fact of a man being married should prove a disqualification; with us, itwould be thought a recommen­ dation. INTRODUCTION .. My friend was such an attendant, andmarried afterwards And J am sure you are incapable of wishing me to name him. The nun who threw herself into the Tiber did so in the early part of 1845. I was at Rome at the time. Of the four cases mentioned of young persons being sent abroad. you ask the par ticulars One of the young ladies I saw and con­ versed with at a nunnery' abroad last summer. The second was narrated to me by the father of the nun. He is a gentleman of fortune in the South of England. And when you ask the par- . ticulars of the other two, who were removed on the ground of ., some immorality," you will feel it would be highly indelicate and improper in me to give the names of the parties, or even of the convents by which the names could so easily be ascertained. I have only to say that I know personally the family of one of them. With the other I had no acquaintance whatever, though I know the nunnery in which the circumstances occurred. And now, having replied in detail to your inquiries, I must be allowed to protest with all firmness, yet with all possible courtesy, against the grounds on which you ask for information. You do .so on the ground that my assertions are '_' injurious to your (our} character," meaning, I presume, the character ofRoman Catholics. I have not said a word reflecting on your character or that of any man; I have reflected certainly on nunneries, as I feel them vicious in principle, and mischievous in practice; but I have not uttered a word that could reflect on your character. I trust I can denounce what is wrong in the Church of Rome, or in any Protes­ tant Church, without being supposed to reflect injuriously upon the character of all the members of those Churches. To denouuce an abuse, or a given system, in any Church is very different from reflecting on the characrer of those members of the Church who have nothing to do with these abuses or systems. I remain, sir, your obedient servant, 1\'1. HOBART SEYMOUR. In forwarding that letter I really thought (perhaps I was wrong) that I gave him as much information as I was justi­ fied in giving, or he was justified in expecting. But since to those gentlemen it seemed otherwise, and since by the Cardinal it has been proclaimed otherwise, I stand here this night to produce evidences which will justify, and more than justify, every statement I have made. And if my evidences �hould bring pain or sorrow to the breast of jany Roman Catholic, if they should bring shame or dishonour to any nunnery, let the blame rest not on me who have shrunk from the subject, but upon Mr. Stourton and Mr. Parfitt, who seem to have stimulated the Cardinal to deny my st�tements and to demand my proofs. 7 8 INTRODUCTION. Now, then, to begin. It is told of an infidel philosopher that he once said that, if he had had the creation of our world, he would have created it on a better system than the present. He imagined himself wiser than Him "in whom are hid all the. treasures of wisdom and knowledge." And ìn somewhat the same spirit the Cardinal has recommended the monastic system. For in the beginning God made them male and female; in the beginning he made them man and wife; in the beginning he desired them to increase and multiply amidst the purity, and the innocence, and the holiness, and the happiness of Eden. But the Cardinal steps in with another and a different arrangement, and he would separate the man from the woman, and separate the woman from the man. The Church of Rome has adopted the principle that celibacy is more holy than marriage, and that married persons, as such, are not so holy as unmarried persons, as such. And, accordingly, it i; held by many in the Church of Rome that the true atmosphere of religion is solitude and retirement; and that if we would attain to the highest flights of perfection, it must be in the cell of the hermit, or the cave of the anchorite; and as this would not be seemly or possible with women, so we must seek the loftiest flights of holiness, and the lowest depths of humi­ lity, in those women who retire to the silence, and the soli­ tude, and the devotion of the cloister. It is not my in­ tention to enter upon any argument on this subject, as I really feel }t would be a waste of your time and my own. But I would observe that it has long been the glory of England that we are in the possession, in the truest sense, of civil liberty and religious freedom; and that, if men choose to seclude themselves from the society of women, or if women choose to separate themselves from the society of men, we have no right nor power to interfere with them. If ladies choose to dress themselves in a monastic fashion, black, white, and grey, with rosaries and crucifixes, it may all seem to us ex- JNTRODUCTION" tremely silly, but we have no right to interfere; and any interference would be an infringement of their civil and religious rights. If ladies choose to live in lonely houses, with ladies like themselves, and altogether secluded from men, it may be a self-inflicted penance, -very foolish in our eyes" but we have no right to interfere; it were a violation of their civil and religious rights. And again, if ladies in such places choose to observe certain formulæ of prayer, or to observe certain ceremonials of 'their own, or to adopt altogether tbe wor­ ship, to any extent, of the ChU:rch of Rome, it may seem to us very superstitious, but still we have no right to inter­ fere; and any interference would be a violation of their civil and religious rights, And, even if it were not so, I conceive that allmanly bearing,and right feeling, and proper delicacy, would lead us to leave them to their own wishes, But if it be found that young girls of sixteen years of age are allured into these establishments before they are capa­ ble of forming a judgment upon the importance of such a step; if young persons are entrapped into. these establishments with the view of obtaining power over every right and property to which they may after­ wards become entitled; if young persons are allured into these establishments, and then not permitted to leave them when they desire to depart from them; if young women are put into these establishments, and �hen they change their religious opinions, and desire to withdraw, are not permitted to withdraw; then, I say, we are justified in interfering; not indeed interfering against ladies, but interfering in order that those ladies may enjoy. the free exercise of their civil and religious liberties. And in asking that nunneries be subjected to visitation on the part either of her Majesty's Justices of the Peace, or on the part of Royal Commissioners appointed for the occa­ sion, all we ask is, that there may be secured to every person in these establishments free ingress and free egress i 10 NUNNERIES LIKE PRISONS. in other ",:ords, that they shall enjoy, in their full extent, their civil liberty and their religious freedom. In carrrying out this subject in my former lecture, I remarked that, in my experience on the Continent, those establishments, .which are called in Italy clausura, in France clotures, and in this country cloistered nunneries, assumed in my eyes very much the same characteristics externally as the bridewells, the penitentiaries, the gaols, and the prisons of this country. They are surrounded with the same lofty walls, the samemassive gates, the same barred windows, the same grated openings, the same inaccessibility from without, and the same impossibility of escape from within. And I remarked at the time that the nuns seemed to me to be confined like birds within a cage, that might flutter their wings and hurt their feathers, but could not escape, being prisoners, victims, and recluses for life. I remarked that, although it was said that the interior of a nunnery 'Was happy as the Garden of Eden, and that the nuns were joyous as the houries ofParadise, yet it seemed very: strange, if all this were true, that the inmates of nunneries should be treated just like the penitents in our penitentiaries, and the prisoners in our prisons. It seemed wondrous strange, that, if all this were true, they should have recourse to so many cunning appliances, and clever contrivances, in order to prevent these happy spirits from flying from their garden of Eden, and these joyous houries from taking wing from their bowers of Paradise. But the Cardinal has replied by stating that though there be indeed those lofty walls, and ponderous gates, and barred windows, and grated openings, yet they are all de­ signed, not to keep the nuns within, but to keep the men without! It called to mind, as I heard it, the answer made to me when one day in c�nversation with two nuns at a nunnery in Rome. I observed that there was a double grating-not one, but two-separating the nuns from myself and my party of friends; and I NUNNERIES LIKE PRISONS. asked what could be the reason of those gratings? Could they be intended to keep 'you ladies within, or us gentlemen without? The answer I thought a happy one at the moment, namely, that one of the gratings was to keep the ladies within, and the other of the gratings was to keep the gentlemen without. But the Cardinal is not content with this, for he conceives the nuns to be too holy, too saint-like, too much charmed with their garden of Eden, and too much enchanted with their sister houries, to think of escaping; and therefore all is designed, not to keep the nuns within, but to keep the men without. And, to illustrate this, he mentioned, in rather a romantic way,' a somewhat unromantic story of certain Spanish nuns, to whom the magistracy threw open the gates of their nunneries, and offered them either eight pence a day if they chose to remain in the building, or ten pence a day if they chose to depart; and the worthy nuns, shrewd and thrifty women as they were, thought they could do better upon eight pence a day with a good house over their heads, than upon ten pence a day, and find themselves; but while the Cardinal dilated thus ro­ mantically on the story of the Spanish nuns, he omitted to mention-no doubt it was one of those lapses of memory to which we public speakers are sometimes liable and which give us the appearance occasionally of a want of ingenuousness -he omitted to state the trifling incident, that on the very occasion of those doors being opened by the Spanish Cortes, no less than two hundred and ten---that was the number officially returned-two hundred and. ten nuns embraced their freedom, renounced , their vows, left the convent, and became secularised ! But, in the report of the Cardinal's speech-for I wish to he accurate-we read in one part that he said these exter­ nal works "were not to keep the inmates in," and then he adds further on, "If they asked him why there were strong doors and barred windows, and grated openings t� 11 NUNNERIES LIKE PRISONS. convents, he would tell them that it was for protection against the violence of men." There are' strange revo­ lutions always going on in this old fashioned world of ours; for when I was young, we used to put a bird into a cage under the idea that it was to prevent its flying away and escaping; but the philosophy of the Cardinal is, that the bird is put into the cage to prevent other birds coming to it and mating with it! And when I was young we always imagined that the muniments of a prison, the beetling walls, and the overhanging towers, were designed to confine the prisoner and prevent his escape; but the philosophy of the Cardinal is, that all these are intended to prevent the rest of the world from visiting them, and intruding on their privacy. But, let us examine nunneries in bhis new phase, The Cardinal told us he had had much personal experience of nuns and nunneries; that he had himself the honour-an honour which was never conferred except upon important persons-of being the visitor, or having the chief authority; in one of the nunneries of Rome, the nunnery of St. Pu­ dentiana, the nunnery from which he was bappy to derive the title of his cardinalate, for he is the Cardinal of St. Pudentiana, And he told us that his experience of nuns and nunneries, was such that he really felt that the nuns were women of above. forty years of age, that they were nuns of advancing years, nuns .of a green old age; and he told us, in the very next breath, that all the walls, and the gates, and the gratings, we're to protect these old women from the men! And, considering that this convent of St. Pudentiana is in the very heart of Rome, in the heart of the most ecclesiastical city in the world, in the heart of that city whose populace is, for a great part, composed of Cardinals and Archbishops" and Bishops, and Prelates, and Abbots, and Priests, and Monks, & Friars, all unmarried ecclesiastics in black, white, and grey, it seems a strange scandal-I suppose it must have bean. NUNNERIES LIKE PRI$ONS. 13 some lapse ofmemory-while he was speaking of it.to say, , that these old women in the nunnery required such muni­ ments to protect them from such a male population. But while it is difficult to ascertain precisely what the Cardinal meant to insinuate, I feel that his words seem to imply that Roman Catholic ladies on the Continent require these munimenta and defences from the Roman Catholic men of the Continent. It seems to me to be either a scandal against the morals of the women, or a slander upon the morals of the men. Protestant ladies in this country require no such protection. Our Protestant ladies devoted to religion and to charity may be seen walking our streets and traversing our lanes, visiting in our hospitals and teaching in our penitentiaries, frequenting our schools, and acting in every sort of public and private charitable institu­ tion : we see them ascending the creaking stairs of the garret to minister to the sick and the poor, and descending to the lowest depths of the cellar to minister of their sub­ stance to their fellow-creatures in destitution; but they feel IlO danger, they see no danger, they know there is no danger. And those of our Protestant ladies who desire to cultivate religion in seclusion, and retire to their own chambers, and pore over God's word, and pour out their prayers before Him who seeth in secret, feel there is no danger, they know there is no danger. And it appears to me that to say that muniments like lofty walls and ponderous gates, and barred windows. and grated open­ ings, are necessary for the protection of ladies in Roman Catholic countries, is to put an insult upon the women, or an insult upon the men. Let the Cardinal, if he will insult the Roman Catholics of Spain; if he will, let him insult the Roman Catholics of France; if he will, let him insult the Roman Catholics of Italy; but let him not come here to insult either the Roman Catholics or the Protestants of England. We can all well under.. stand the use of high walls and heavy gates, and bars B 14 AGE FOR BECOMING NUNS. and bolts, to prevent a prisoner escaping; but if it be, as he asserts, to keep the nuns from themen, or to keep the men from the nuns, then is every nunnery a standing scandal against the wornell, or' a standing insult against the men. But, passing from this part of my subject, I stated in my former lecture that young persons were placed in these nunneries when they were sixteen years of age, and that, when so entering the nunnery, when they had assumed the black veil and taken the vows, they were then secluded from the outer world, separated from parents and friends, companions and kindred; divorced from all the hopes and wishes, the sympathies and the ties of human life; confined within the narrow limits of their cloisters, they seemed to me to be recluses and prisoners for life; and I asked the question, what purpose of religion could it serve to immure young girls of sixteen years of age in these ecclesiastical prisons 1 When I asked-what purpose of religion it could serve to immure young girls in those ecclesiastical prisons, the Cardi­ nal has made no reply as to the age of the parties; but he said that we were in the habit in this country of mystifying and concealing the preliminaries which the Church of Rome bad appointed before the profession of a nun was made. He stated that there was ordinarily a probationary state, called the postulancy, extending sometimes to six months, and that, during all that time, the candidate was free; and that there was the shield of the ballot, and a noviciate of twelve months, and sometimes of four years, during the whole of which the candidate was free; and it was not till after this that she took the vows, and that, from that moment, she was no longer free. Now, the Cardinal, on this occasion, committed one of those omissions to which I have referred-to which public speakers are so very liable. He told us, indeed, of the postulancy, but omitted to tell us at what age the postulancy might com­ mence; and he told us of the novìcìate, but omitted to tell AGE FOR BECOMING NUNS. us at what age the noviciate might commence; and he told us of taking the final vows? but omitted to tell us at what age the final vows might be taken. He spoke, indeed, about there being many more nuns of his acquaintance over forty than under twenty-five years of age; and he spoke jauntily of nuns of advancing years, and of a green old age; and he spoke this out as if he wished it to be implied -he did not say it, but he appeared to convey the impli­ cation .- that all the nuns were of that advanced period in life. I must so- far bear testimony to the Cardìnal's state­ ment as to say that I was once present at the reception of a nun of forty years of age. I shall never �orget the scene. She entered the Church clothed in themost splendid attire; everything that velvet, and satin, and silk, and jewels could do, was done for her; and as she sat beside the altar, I was much impressed with the appearance of her splendid head of hair-her ample and beautiful chesnut locks, which fell down on her face and mantled on her bosom; and I thought it was really a sin and a shame for a Cardinal to cut off that glorious ornament of a woman's head, And wlien I looked afterwards at the grating, and beheld him take the shears in his hands, I was not a little surprised when I saw that it was not merely a lock which he cut off, but that the whole came off at once; it was that unromantic thing, a wig! And there was the nun with her bald head, above forty years of age, bringing to mind the saying of the respectable old Pope of by-gone days, who used to declare that no young girl ought to be put into !1 nunnery, �nd no woman ought to be allowed to take the vow of chastity, till she had given forty' yeara proof of her intention to keep it. I have stated that the age atwhich theywere admissible to those honours was sixteen years, and, as the Cardinal has omitted to dwell on the subject, I shall now direct your attention to the evidence on it. And the first point to which I shall direct your attention 15 16 AGE FOR BECOMING NUNS. is a narrative which we find in the Roman Breviary, a - volume in the hands of every Roman Catholic priest, who . is obliged, by his ordination vows, to read, a portion of it every day. It speaks of St. Rosa, of Lima, the first flower of sanctity " The first flower of sanctity from South America was the virgin Rose, born of Ch�istian parents, at Lima, who, even from the cradle, shone with the presages of future holiness; for the face of the infant being wonderfully transfigured-into the image of a. rose, gave occasion to her being called by this name; to which afterwards, the virgin Mother of God added the surname, order­ ing her to be thenceforth called the Rose of St. Mary. She made a vow ofperpetual virg{nity at five years of age t" If that young lady were so precocious in her sanctity, she certainly must have been precocious on other subjects if she understood the vows she was taking. I pass from the Breviary to that which the Cardinal told us was the great authority in the Church of Rome, to which he and others had what some might be pleased to call a superstitious reverence; he referred to the Canons of the Council of Trent. Now the law, as set forth by the Council of Trent, is sufficiently explicit. In the 25th session, and at the 17th chapter, I thus read:- H A girl, more than tnoeioe year:s of age, wishing to take the habit of a nun, is to be examined by the ordinary, and again, be­ fore making her profession. The Holy Councils, consìdering the freedom of profession of virgins to be dedicated to God, resolves and decrees, and that, if a girl, who is twelve uear« of, age, wishes to assume the habit of a nun, she shall not assume it before the Bishop shall have examined her, nor shall she take the profession afterwards before the Bishop shall again have examined her." , So that Wf1 have it here expressly stated, Ìn the canons of the Council of Trent, that a girl, twelve years oj age may 'take "the habit"-that is, the vestigione, or commence the novìciate, Now, while it will be felt that this is sufficiently early to begin, the Council goes on to state at what period the vows are to be made. In the 25th session, 15th chapter, are these words :- "In whatever order, whether of men or of women, the prefes- AGE FOR BECOMING NUNS. 17 sion is made, let it not be made until the completion of the six­ teen yea1's ; and let no one be admitted to make the profession in a less time than a year after taking the habit in the noviciate. " So \hat we learn that the noviciate may begin so early as twelve years of age, and the profession may be made at sixteen years of age; and this was precisely the age to which I referred when: I asked the question-What purpose of religion could' it serve to immure girls of sixteen years of age in these ecclesiastical prisons? The moment that young girl has taken the veil, hope and life are for her banished away for ever. Before her mind is sufficiently matured to form a right judgment upon the subject, she signs away her destiny. Before her heart has felt the flow of those affections which, sooner or later, will flow and settle on some object, she is required to sign away her doom. Before her physical frame has developed so as to understand the mysterious voice of nature within, she has signed away she knows not what. Oh, I know not a greater cruelty, I know not a more unmanly outrage, than to take a younggirl-a young, tender, innocent, generous, confiding, loving, warm-hearted girl-of fifteen or sixteen years of age, and ask her to sign away all the flower and blossom of her future life, to leave her to mourn in bitterness and broken­ heartedness all her after years, and to learn that hermaturer judgment, and her woman's feelings, and all her after life, have been sacrificed to the law of the Church ofRome-a law that I feel is an offence against God, as well as an outrage against nature. But, while the Cardinal told us of the postulancy, and of the noviciate, and of the profession, he omitted to tell us the precise age at which they were each to commence. He did t�ll us that, during the postulancy, the nuns were free as air to depart and escape, and that during the noviciate they were free as air to depart and to escape; but, he did not tell us that the postulancy, being six months before the novìcìate=-thet six months before the twelve years of age this postulancy begins-that is at eleven years and a half; 18 AGE "FOR BECOMING NUNS� that the child is free till twelve, and that then com­ mences the noviciate, which was sometimes four years; that is, commencing at twelve and ending at sixteen: and so the whole period of her freedom is from from. eleven and a half to sixteen years of age, when we all know themind of such a girl is plastic, & can be moulded by anyone around. her to desire, or to wish, or to do almost anything which those who are thus around her may desire. When she is in this state, and has taken the last vows, the decree of the Council of Trent expressly says that no one who has been so sanctified must be allowed to withdraw from the nun­ nery; and then, to prevent the possibility of any hope, the Bishop or the Cardinal--as it may be, and as I myself have frequently witnessed-and as no doubt this very Care dinal has himself performed-while as yet the poor girl kneels ,in his presence he rises, puts his mitre on his brow, and pronounces that awful anathema which, when once heard, will for ever tingle in the ears of men. He stands in his place and utters this awful malediction against all persons who shall presume to assist her in making her escape. "By," says the Cardinal, with his crosier in his hand, and his mitre upon his brow, and the veiled recluse keeling before him- "By the authority of Almighty God, and his holy Apostles Peter and Paul, we so1emnly forbid, under pain of anathema, that anyone draw away these present virgins. or holy nuns, from the Divine service, to which they have devoted themselves under the banner of chastity; or that any one,purloin their goods, or hinder their possessing them unmolested; but, if anyone shall dare to -attempt such a thing, let him be accursed at home and abroad; .aceursed in the city, and in the field; accursed in waking and sleeping; accursed in eating and drinking; accursed in walking and sitting; cursed be his flesh and his bones, and, from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head, let him have no sou�dness. Let come upon him themalediction, which, byMoses in the law, the Lord hath laid on the sons of iniquity. Let his name be blotted out from the book of the living, and not be written with the righ­ teous. Let his portion and ìnheritanee be with Cain the fratricide, with Dathan and Abiram, with Ananias and Sapphira, with Simon the sorcerer, and with Judas, the traitor; and with those who bave said to God, Depart from us, we desire not the know- AGE FOR BECOMING NUNS. ledge of thy ways. Let him perish in ihe day oj judgment, and let everlasting fire devour him, with the deni! and his angels­ unless he make restitution, and come to amendment. Accustomed as we are to the language of Holy Scripture,' we know that the religion of Christ is a religion of blessing, and not of cursing; and our blood freezes within us as we read such an unchristianmalediction as this. And yet there kneels the veiled recluse before him. And, if in after years, perhaps, at the thoughtoffriends, and family, anrlhome-her own sweet, sweet home-feeling that there is no place like home-she may wish to withdraw; or, it may be, tired of the d-ulness, and the monotony, and the wearisomeness of the cloistered life; or, it may be, weary and sick at heart of the priestcraft, or the superstition, or the vice, which may be secretly practised within the convent walls; or, it may be, having changed her religious sentiments, she wishes for the free light of the Gospel of Christ' in the Protestant Church; yet the moment she thinks of these things, the awful malediction, as a ghastly spectre, rises before her- "Let her perish in the day, of judgment, and let everlasting fire devour he�, with the devil and his angels." ' Or, if her father, in after years, wishes to bsing back his long-lost daughter to his bosom; or, if her mother should sigh over the dangers which she has learned are rife within the cloisters; or, if her brother, brave and generous, makes an effort to secure the freedom of his sister, then the vision of the Cardinal stands before him, with crozier an:d with mitre, and proclaims the sentence- " Let him perish in the day of judgment, and let everlasting fire devour him, with the devil and his angels." Even, were the Chief-Justice of the Queen's Bench to issue the writ of Habeas Oorpus to bring this young recluse .into Court before him; or, if the Lord Chancellor were to issue his order that his veiled ward may be brought into his pre­ sence, and, the officials of the Sovereign of England demand her presence, there the Cardinal stands, with crozier in hand, 19 20 .. NUNS LIABLE TO DEPORTATION. and mitre upon his brow, and again the awful curse is ring­ ing in our ears- ., Let them perish in the day of judgment, and let everlasting fire devour them with the devil and his angels." While these officials are Protestants, breathing a Protes­ tant atmosphere iu a Protestant land, we may laugh to scorn such curses; but if they become Romanists, then the curse is no trifle, but a terrible reality ; and the day may I come when we shall require an enactment that any man should be banish�d from the shores of England who would dare to pronounce such an audacious malediction against any liege subjects of the crown of England. I stated.ron a former occasion, that onegreatevil connected with nunneries was the system of deportation. I stated that while we had those young women in nunneries in this coun- - try, they were under the broad ægis of our free institutions, and if they desired to escape there was, at least, if not a probability, a possibility of escape. But this is only while they are retained in this country ; and if' there be a suspi­ �lOn of their desire to escape, or if there be a suspicion of any change of religious sentiment, it is in the power of those who conduct the establishment to remove her, with or without, her own consent, to some affiliated nunnery on the Continent-to remove her t� some land where the ecclesiastical Iaws will sanction any and every restraint upon her person, and where she may be made a prisoner and a victim for life. I stated, as illustrative of this, four in­ stances which occurred under my own knowledge. One was the daughter of a clergyman, known to many on this platform, who entered a nunnery in England, and soon afterwards was transferred to the Continent. The second was a case mentioned to me by a gentleman) relative to his own daughter, who was afterwards removed to a nunnery on the Continent. I also mentioned two cases in .Ireland, both being cases where nuns were removed--whether with orwithout their own consent, is amatter onwhich I can. NUNS LIABLE TO DEPORTATION. 21 not pass an opinion. I only speak as to the fact, that, having been in nunneries under our free institutions, they were removed from their protection, and sent to nunneries abroad. Now I confess that I thought this was one of the most important points in my whole lecture. But, to my sur­ prise, while the Cardinal was playing with and cavilling at the instances I have given, he admits the fact? not only that the inmates are sometimes sent from nunneries in this cou�try to nunneries abroad, but that it is the nature of their system that the nuns shall be held liable to pe removed at any time) from nunneries in this country to nunneries in other lands. I hold in my hand two reports of the Cardinal's address, one of them, namely" that in the Gazette, gives the Cardinal's words as follows:- "Of the cited examples of deported nuns, they had in like man­ ner soughtin vainof thewriter of the pamphlet for a vorìfìcatlon of' his statements; and of deportation generally he would onlyen­ treat them to make the inquirywhether the nunswbo went abroad were of full age, and did so by their own consent; if this were so, . what was to prevent their going to an affiliated establishment on the Continent, if they thought fit? There were but few con­ vents in this country, in fact only two or three, that were affi­ liations of convents in France; all the rest were perfectly in­ dependent. But if a nun chose to join one of the affiliated houses, she was quite aware that one of the conditions which she accepted was that she. should !lO to any oj the affiUated institutions to which it might be desirable to send her," Thus we find the Cardinal expressly admits the fact, namely, that 'young women immured in nunneries in Eng­ land are liable to be sent abroad to the affiliated nunneries upon the Continent, The report in the Chronicle is as follows :- " There were a few convents in this country affiliated on those in France. What was the reason? One was for the purpose of taking care of orphans. The good nuns came over here and sunk their money in supporting a great number of orphans, without friends; others came for the purpose of education; others came to help the Catholics in the good work of education. But it was perfectly understood by those who entered the latter convents .that they were not to settle, not to stay in particular houses, but were to go abroad." 22 NUNS LIABLE TO DEPORTATION� . And thus the Cardinal admits the system of deportation, and that it is a part of their system in reference to the affiliated nunneries. But he states that we ought to enquire whether it i.s done with their consent, and whether they are of fun �ge. Now, as to this point, as the Cardinal has admitted s'o much to me, I will just quietly remind him that, according to the canon law, which he has been endeavouring to introduce into this country, themajority, or age of a nun, according to the conventual system, is six teen years, and not twenty-one as with us. Accordingly, when a girl of sixteen years of age is received into an affiliat�d convent, she is then of full age, according to the canon law; and, therefore, at that age, she may be rem�ved to the Continent, according to the statement of the Cardinal himself. As to its being with 'the consent of. a girl' of that age, I need scarcely say, speaking to men of the world, that we never find it difficult to persuade a girl of sixteen to go to the Continent; there requires no great power of persuasion to induce her, on some plea or the other, to visit Continental scenes: And thus we learn, from the admission of the Cardinal, that pain­ ful and distressing fact, which seems to me one of the most objectionable and most painful features in the whole system, that these young creatures may, at any time, be removed from the safeguard of the free institutions of England to some nunnery in Mexico or Syria" \ in Spain or Italy, where any change of religious feeling could be punished as heresy; and where any attempt to escape being made, she would be hunted down by the military and the police, as if she were a murderess; and where, as a punishment, she may be sent to some insalubrious convent i.n some pestilental clime. or else placed in one of those monasteries where every vice of earth and every crime of hell is perpetrated, andwhere the shriek of outraged innocence, and the death-sighs of a broken heart, are suppressed and stifled within the walls, and never can be heard:in the outer world. NUNS MADE 'SUCH BY CONSTRAINT. 23 I stated, as a further objection, that many of these nuns were placed in the nunneries, not by their own inclinations, but against their own incli­ nations; not of their own choice, but by parental authority. I stated that it was the custom on the 'Continent, in years gone by, to act upon what is called the economical principle; a principle in which economy had a larger share than religion. All through the age of feudalism this prevailed, till, at the close of the last century, the French Revolution altered the whole state and tone of society on the Continent. At that .period it was generally followed in Germany, Spain, Italy and France. All the distinctions and titles and wealth of the family belonged to the eldest son, and it was imagined that giving away any portion of this, to provide for the younger SOllS, or to provide a portion for a younger daughter, was so much wealth and influence subtracted from the family dis­ tinctions, and the consequence was that, although elder sons could marry elder daughters, yet younger daughters could not marry younger so�s, for there was no pro­ vision on either side. Among them it was imagined that mercantile pursuits, commercial engagements, and professional occupations, were beneath the dignity and position of noblemen and gentlemen; and the conse­ quence was, that too often the younger sons were placed in convents, and the younger daughters were placed in nun­ neries. And this naturally led to many of them com­ mencing the life of a nun against their own inclination, and simply under parental constraint. But the Cardinal protests against all this. Re states that we ought not to suppose that parents on the Con­ tinent have acted on different principles from parents in England; and he besought us, in earnest language, at the opening of his address-stating that, it was absolutely necessary before we could have a right judgment on the question-to divest ourselves of the idea that the English 24 NUNS MADE SUCH BY CONSTRAINT. people are superior to the people of the nations of the Continent. He assured us that there was really no such distinction, and that the people of England were not superior to the people of the Continent. It would really seem from what he said that we were quite as slavish as the serfs of Russia, and quite as uncivilized as the Mussul­ men of Turkey, as fickle and as changeable as the French, as ignorant and superstitious as the Spanish, as immoral and uneducated as the Italians, to hear him speaking of England having no advantage over any other nation of the world. But there is one great peculiarity of the people of England which distinguishes them from all the nations of the Continent. It is, that we have here the freedom of the press. We have here freedom of religion. We have here freedom for the Bible, and our people breathe the language and the sentiments, the morals and the religion of the Bible. There is a difference between the people of this country and the people of the Continent; and the God above us has recognized it; for when the storm \ of revolution lately burst like a hurricane over all the nations of the Continent -when the heaving of a moral earthquake shook the foundations of every dy­ nasty of the countries-when thrones, sceptres, and crowns were dashed to the earth and trampled" under the feet of men-when constitution after constitution was torn to shreds, and scattered like the beard of the thistle on every wind of Heaven-when the free press of the nations was struck down by the iron hand of des­ potism in every kingdom on the Continent-the men of England stood by their throne and their altar, and their liberties, and preserved them all inviolate. There is a difference between the people of England and the nations of the Continent, and that differ.. ence is, among other things, our free and Protestant Chris­ tianity. That Protestant Christianity has given to England a married clergy-men who can honestly take their NUNS MA.DE SUCH BY CONSTRAINT. 25 wives to their bosoms and look at their daughters around their hearths, and who, therefore, can 8ympa­ thize with. the feelings of the women and in the interests of the daughters of the land. But Romanism on the Continent has given them an unmarried priest­ hood, who cannot honestly take wives to their bosoms, or see their daughters around their hearths, and who, there­ fore, cannot enter into the sympathies of the women and of the daughters of the land. And when we remember the influence which the clerical element always has on the rami­ fications of feeling throughout the social system, itwill be at once seen that we have thus the secret which shows the rea­ son why the parents in England act on one system of prin­ ciples, and parents upon the Continent act upon another. The natural result has been that parents in England put their younger sons to professional pursuits, mercantile engagements, and commercial employments, therebyena­ bling them to make such an income as will capacitate them for marrying the younger daughters of the land. Whereas, on the Continent, their habit had not been to put their you:t;lger sons to these pursuits, but to place them in con­ vents, thus leaving the younger daughters of the land un­ married, because, when there could be no husbands there could be no wives, and so they consigned them to the cloister. Thus, then, there is a wide distinction between parents in England and parents upon the Continent. But the Car­ dinal protests against the conclusion at which I arrived, namely, that young women were put into those nunneries, not only by parental authority, but against their own in­ clinations. Re at once boldly denied the statement, and he challenged my proofs. I hold in my hand a work which was published only four years ago in this country. It is entitled "The True Spouse of Jesus Christ; or the Nun Sanctified by the Virtues of her State. By St. Alphonsus M. Liguori." This C 26 NUNS MADE SUCH BY CONSTRAINT. last canonized saint of the calendar wrote this wòrk for the edification of nuns within the nunneries; and, for the edi­ fication of the young nuns of England, they have trans­ lated it and published it in English in 1848. Now, I refer to it for the fact, that young women are sometimes put into thes� establishments against their own inclinations, be­ cause the writer himself is addressing nuns in the nunne­ ries who are avowedly there against their (inclinations; and he makes use of the fact that, in times past, nuns have been made nuns without their own inclinations, and yet after­ wards have turned out very good nuns and very ex­ cellent saints. He says :- "Blessed Hyacintha Marescotti, a religious of the convent of st. Clare, in Viterbo, was also induced to take the sacred. veil against her inclination, and for ten years led a very imperfect life. But being one day illumined with a divine light, she gave herself entirely to God, and persevered till death, for the space of twenty-four years, in a life ofholiness, so that she has deserved to be venerated on the altar." , And not content with this example, he gives another:­ " Likewise sister Mary Bonaventure, a nun in the convent of the Torre Dei Specchi, entered against her will; but after a life of tepidity and dissipation, she went. during the first meditation of the spiritual exercises. and threw herself at the feet of Father Lancizio, of the Society of Jesus, and courageously said to him: Father, I have learned what God wishes from me. 'I wish to be a saint, and a great saint, and I wish to be one immediately.' .. And so the writer goes on to tell those nuns who are nuns thus against inclination, that if they can only bring their mind to like it, afterwards they may turn out very good nuns and excellent saints. But, since our friends are very anxious that we should have evidence on the subject, I shall read a little more of this edifying book. "Perhaps," says this saint, addressing the nuns- ., But, perhaps, you will tell me you can never have peace, be� cause you find that you have entered religion to please yOltr parents, and against your own will. I answer thus: if, at the time of your profession, you had not a vocation, I would not have ad­ vised you to have made the vows of religious; but I would have entreated you to suspend your resolution of going back to the NUNS MADE SUCH BY CONSTRAINT. 27 world, and casting yourself into tbe many dangers of perdition which are found in the world. I now see you placed in the house of God, and �ade (either voluntarily or unwillingly) the spouse of .Iesus Christ. For my part, I cannot pity you more than I could pity a person who had been transported (even against his will) from a place infected with pestilence, and surrounded by enemies, to a healthful country, to be placed there for life, secure against every foe. " I will not pause to examine the casuistry of this person, for I feel it would be a waste of your time and of my own; but I shall read something more of it :-- " I add; grant that what you state is true; now that you are professed in a convent, and that it is impossible for you to leave it, tell me what do you wish to do? If you have entered religion against your inclinations, you must now remain with cheerful­ ness. If you abandon yourself to melancholy, yon shall lead a life ofmisery, and will expose yourself to great danger of sufter­ ing a hell here, and another hereafter. You must then make a virtue of necessity. A nd if the devil hæs brought you into reli­ gion, for your destruction, let it be your care to avail yourself of your holy state for your salvation, and to become a saint. Give yourself to God from the heart, and I assure you that, by so doing, you shall become more content than all the princesses and queens of this world. Being asked his opinion regarding a per­ son who bad become a nun against her will, St. Francis de Sales answered : It is true that this child, if she had not been obliqed by her parents, would not have left the world; but this is of little importance, provided she knows that the force employed by her parents is more useful to .her than the permission to follow her own will. For now she can say: If I had not lost such liberty, I would have lost true liberty. The saint meant to say, that had she not been eompelled. by her parents to become a nun, ber liberty, which would have induced her to remain in the world, would have robbed her of the true liberty of the children of God, ! which consists in freedom from the chains and dangers of the world," Here, then, I presume, we have ample evidence that nuns are sometimes nuns against their inclinations, nuns by parental authority, and not by their own wills. And I ask �ny feeling man to conceive the case of one of these young girls, who has been induced to make these vows, and now wishes to escape from the nunnery; to see her wandering through the long passages, or, as sitting in her lonely cell, and thinking over these things, she is haun­ ted by the recollections of the past; and as she looks up she sees, ",It is impossible for you to leave it"; and as she 28 NU�Œ �_[ADE SUCH BY CONSTRAINT. looks below she reads, " You must make a virtue of necessity." Is it any wonder that the poor girl with break­ ing heart, and fevered pulse, and burning blain, should be found to lapse into the drivelling of idiotcy, or into the frenzy €lf madness ? I will read one passage more describing the state of the nunwho is a nun against her will :- '" It is true, that, even ill the cloister, there are some discontented souls; for even in religion there are some who do not live as relìgioue ought to live. To be a good religious, and to be content, are one and the same thing; for the happiness of a religious consists' in a constant and perfect union of her will with the adorable will- of God. Whosoever is not united to him cannot be happy; for God cannot infuse his cona solations into a soul that resists his Divine Will. I have been accus­ tomed to say that a religious in her convent enjoys a foretaste ofpara � dise, or s�ffers an antieipation o/hell. To endure the pains of I1eli, is to be separated from God; to be forced against the inclinations of nature, to do the will of others; to be distrusted, despised, reproved', and chastised, by those with whom we live; to be shut up in a place of confìnement, from which it is impossible to escape; in a word, it is to be in continual torture witheut a moment's peace. Such is the miser­ able condition of a bad religious; and, therefore, she suJférs on earth an anticipation or tbe torments oj hell." Here is the testimony of the "Saint'Y himself, as he iB; called, that a young girl in a nunnery against her own inclina­ tion "suffers an anticipation of hell:" these are the words. Again, he says, that she is there "forced against the indi nations of nature:" these are the very words. Again, that she is "distrusted, despised, reproved, and chastised by those with whom she lives;" these are thé very words, Again, she is "shut up in a place of confinement from which it is impossible to escape :" these, again, are the very words.. She is in a state of " continual torture, without a moment's peace:" these agaiu are the v.ery words. And yet more, H she suffers on earth an anticipation of the torments ofhell:" these are again the very words 1 And can we wonder at anything befalling a young creature who reads these words." and remembers them in her cell? Oh � if there be an anti­ chamber of madness for the human mind in this world, it must be in the state of the poor girl made. a nun against her inclination. Her heart must be cold as. marble; her heart OBJECT OF NUNNERIES, &0. 29 must be made of the ice of the coldest iceberg of the north, if her mind does not sink under the sorrows laid on her. The wonder is not that her reason should fail; the wonder is that she should preserve h,er reason and live! But the Cardinal asks, What purpose or object can be assigned to induce cardinals, bishops, and priests, to allure girls into the nunneries? He asks, what assignable object can be given for their extending the monastic system; what possible profit or advantage can be ascribed to them 1 He asks this with great simplicity, and with a taking and winning innocence of manner, But it occurred to me, that in a case so lately before the public-the case of Miss Tal­ bot-�here were eighty-five thousand reasons-very earthly reasons, certainly, but very substantial reasons all the while. And the very same thought occurred to Bishop Hendren, of Clifton, for he wrote to the Time« newspaper, saying that he did not see why the Roman Catholic Church should not get a share of that money; and it is said he anticipated building a Cathedral with a portion of it. But still the Cardinal asks, what assignable motive can exist for promoting the monastic system? He had one very strong rea­ son in the lecture before him for the solution of the question ; for on that occasion I showed that every young woman on coming to a nunnery, is called the Bride of Jesus Christ, and is expected to bring her I dowry with her; that that varies in different countries; that on my mquiries throughout Italy, l found that it, extended from £300 up to £800 and £1,000, and that in Ireland it was at the lowest £50�, and l remarked that all these nunneries were so managed, that the interest of the dowry was sufficient to maintain the ordinary expenditure of the nun, and that the capital was preserved intact. I stated, that as mO'ney produced six per cent on the Continent, £30Q would give an interest of £18; and that this was adequate for the purpose, for I have been at a nunnery in Belgium, where I asked the Superior the charge for a single individual board­ ing in the establishment, and she told me it was only £12 30 OBJECT OF NUNNERIES a year. This statement is substantiated by the fact that the Spanish Government, itself a Roman Catholic Govern­ ment, and the people a Roman Catholic people, allows pre­ cisely £12 : 3s. 4d. as the allowance for each individual in a nunnery. Well, then, if they have but £300 as the dowry, the interest is fully adequate to support the ex­ penditure of the nun, and the capital is laid by and reserved for the purposes of the Court of Rome. l remarked, also, that when I was in Tuscany, they told me there were from five to six thousand nuns in that country, and that if we multiply 5,000 (the lowest number) by �300, the smallest sum supposed for the dowry, it would give a capital of something like £1,500,000; and that if we went to the city of Rome, and its vicinity, where there are about 2,000 nuns, the lowest sum ,£300, would give a capital 'of £600,000; and, estimating the whole number in Italy at 12,000-20,000 is nearer the true number­ it would give a result not much short of £4,000,000 of capital. And I remarked that this was not a dead or inactive capital, but, that, as each nun died, her dowry was available, being supplied by the dowry of her suc­ cessor; so that if all the nuns died out in twenty years the whole of the capital would be available in twenty years; and if all the nuns died out in ten years, the whole of the capital would be available in ten years. And, therefore, I observed, there was a premium on the rapid dying away of the nuns, for the faster they died out the faster was the capi­ tal necessarily available. Now, when it is considered that l applied ;my calculation only to Italy, and we are to add thereto the Church of Spain, and the Church of France, and also if we allow a calculation for these islands, then I think it will be found that the Co�rt of Rome will be in possession of a capital so enormous that we shall have brought to mind what Hume says in his History of the early Kings of England, that the Court of Rome drew a revenue from this country greater than all the national revenue of the Crown of England. THE WEALTH OF ROME. But the Cardinal has replied to all this by stating that I have taken too high an estimate in naming £300 as' the ordinary dowry of the nuns; that his experience is that £200 was nearer the mark; that he seldom knew any beyond £200. Now I am not disposed to bandy words with the Cardinal, or any other man, or to set his word against mine, or my word against his. And I am sure that . every man in this assembly would act as I would act my­ self, when I met such rival and contradictory statements. I would ask if there were any certain or independent authority distindt from either party. And, above all, if I found that the matter had come before any Law Court of England, and if the judgment of Jury and Judge had settled the question, I would defer to that judgment, and waive the opinion of Mr. Seymour on the one hand, and that of the Cardinal on the other. Now, my own personal experience was that, at Chiavari, in the North of Italy, I asked the ques­ tion, and was told that the amount was £300; and when I was in Perugia, in Tuscany, they told me it was £300, and upwards, and when I was at Rome, and asked the same question, they told me it was £300, some­ times ascending to £800 and £1000; and when I have asked the question in Ireland, they have told me that the very lowest was £500. But, as I have stated, I waive my own experience, and lay aside my own assertions. I come to what my friends are so anxious for; I come to the evidence. Now, the first proof Iwill give is the judgment of a Baron in the Court of Exchequer, in the case known to lawyers by the name of "White v. Reed," in 1827. The Judge, in giving his judgment, used the following words:- " In 1825, this young woman entered into the establishment as a lodger, and unquestionably not as a person who had irrevocably bound herself to take the veil; and what is that which was stipulated ?-viz., that she was not to be professed till she attained the age of twenty-one; under this stipulation she entered the convent. And it was further agreed that she was to pay £40 a year until she took the veil, and after­ wards £600." The Judge states further :- " Her brother-in-law is denied access to her; her sister is allowed to see her, but never without a member of the convent being present; and 31 32 OBJEc;:r OF NUNNERIES in such circumstances as these she transfers £1100 to the convent, and the whole of her real estate, with the exception of some small portion of . it, which she gave to her relations. ,. Now here we have evidence in a Court of Law that £600 was the dowry in that convent. That was the convent of Ranelagh, near Dublin. But I am determined that the public in this city shall see how much and how far they are to depend upon the accuracy of the Cardinal. I am determined that when he visited this place and impeached my credibility, he must stand the test of his own. Now, bearing in mind what he said on . that occasion that he never knew the sum tò be greater than £200, he must have had a knowledge of the case nowbefore me. This case is one published in the Jurist, and is so far an official document that that which I hold in my hand would be received in a court of law as evidence, It is the case of the Macarthys, tried in the year 1844, and appealed to the House of Lords two years ago. It a,ppears from the evi­ dence and in the chayge of the Judge" and in the documents before the House of Lords, that "Maryand Catherine Macarthy> in the life time of their father, and with his own consent, became members of the Ursuline Convent at Black Rock, and he paid to the Society a sum of £1000 with each of them as a portion." I think, therefore, I have set. at rest, 80 far as legal evidence is concerned, the fact that when I stated £300 might be taken as a moderate estimate I was not very far above the mark , whatever I might have been below it. But I have not done wich the credibility of the Cardinal. It is not every day I catch a Cardinal. The Cardinal stated, that he only knew of £200 given for a dowry, and he omitted-perhaps it was one of those lapses of memory to which I have before referred-he omitted to state that, whenever that dowry is given, much or small, it comprehends all rights ana all properties to which that nun may ever afterwards become entitled. So that if she gives her £300 or her £1000, believing it to be all she has, yet, if in after times she inherits many thousands, or be bequeathed amillion. the whole of that becomes part and parcel of her dowry, and is absorbed into the nunnery. The Cardinal omitted to state this in his lecture; but it is stated broadly in the evidence THE WEAI,TH OF R01\