9,. 
 
 *>, 
 
 .^. 
 
 S>. 
 
 
 IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 /. 
 
 <,^.<*^!^ 
 
 
 z 
 
 # 
 
 1.0 
 
 I.I 
 
 1.25 
 
 1^ 
 
 m 
 
 2.5 
 
 u& 1^ 12.2 
 
 - lii i 
 
 1.4 
 
 III 
 
 2.0 
 
 1.6 
 
 Photographic 
 
 Sciences 
 Corporation 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEBSTER, N.Y. MS 80 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
 ^ 
 
 4^^ 
 
 m 
 
 :\ 
 
 V 
 
 \ 
 
 % 
 
 s 
 
 ... <' 
 
 o"^ 
 
CIHM/ICMH 
 
 Microfiche 
 
 Series. 
 
 CIHM/ICMH 
 Collection de 
 microfiches. 
 
 Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques 
 
Technical and Bibliographic Notas/Notes tachniques at bibliographiquas 
 
 The Institute has attempted to obtain the beat 
 original copy available for filming. Features of this 
 copy which may be bibliographically unique, 
 which may alter any of the images in the 
 reproduction, or which may significantly change 
 the usual method of filming, are checked below. 
 
 D 
 
 D 
 
 D 
 D 
 
 n 
 
 D 
 
 D 
 
 Coloured covers/ 
 Couverture de couleur 
 
 I I Covers damaged/ 
 
 Couverture endommagde 
 
 □ Covers restored and/or laminated/ 
 Couverture restaur6e et/ou pelliculde 
 
 Cover title missing/ 
 
 Le titre de couverture manque 
 
 I I Coloured maps/ 
 
 Cartes gdographiques en couleur 
 
 Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ 
 Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bleue ou noire) 
 
 Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ 
 Planches et/ou illustrations en couleur 
 
 Bound with other material/ 
 Relid avec d'autres documents 
 
 Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion 
 along interior margin/ 
 
 La reliure serree peut causer de I'ombre ou de la 
 distortion le long de la marge intdrieure 
 
 Blank leaves added during restoration may 
 appear within the text. Whenever possible, these 
 have been omitted from filming/ 
 II se peut que certaines pages blanches ajoutdes 
 lors d'une restauration apparaissent dans le texte, 
 mais, lorsque cela 6tait possible, ces pages n'ont 
 pas 6t6 film^es. 
 
 Additional comments:/ 
 Commentaires suppl^mentaires: 
 
 The 
 to th 
 
 L'Institut a microfilm^ le meilleur exemplaire 
 qu'il lui a AtA possible de se procurer. Les details 
 de cet exemplaire qui sont peut-Atre uniques du 
 point de vue bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier 
 une image reproduite, ou qui peuvent exiger une 
 modification dans la methods normale de filmage 
 sont indiqu6s ci-dessous. 
 
 |~~| Coloured pages/ 
 
 Pages de couleur 
 
 Pages damaged/ 
 Pages endommag^es 
 
 n Pages restored and/or laminated/ 
 Pages restauries et/ou pelliculdes 
 
 [—--|/ Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ 
 I I Pages d6color6es, tachet^es ou piqudes 
 
 The 
 poss 
 of th 
 film! 
 
 Orig 
 begii 
 the I 
 sion, 
 othe 
 first 
 sion, 
 or ill 
 
 I I Pages detached/ 
 
 D 
 
 Pages d6tach6es 
 
 Showthrough/ 
 Transparence 
 
 Quality of prir 
 
 Qualitd indgale de I'impression 
 
 Includes supplementary materii 
 Comprend du matdriel supplementaire 
 
 Only edition available/ 
 Seule Edition dispo;^ible 
 
 r~~y Showthrough/ 
 
 r~~\ Quality of print varies/ 
 
 I I Includes supplementary material/ 
 
 I I Only edition available/ 
 
 The 
 shall 
 TINL 
 whic 
 
 Map) 
 diffei 
 entir( 
 begir 
 right 
 requi 
 meth 
 
 Pages wholly or partially obscured by errata 
 slips, tissues, etc., have been ref limed to 
 ensure the best possible image/ 
 Les pages totalement ou partiellement 
 obscurcies par un feuillet d'errata, une pelure, 
 etc., ont 6t6 film^es d nouveau de fa^on d 
 obtenir la meilleure image possible. 
 
 This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ 
 
 Ce document est film6 au taux de reduction indiquA ci-dessous. 
 
 
 10X 
 
 
 
 
 14X 
 
 
 
 
 18X 
 
 
 
 
 22X 
 
 
 
 
 26X 
 
 
 
 
 30X 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 J 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 12X 
 
 
 
 
 liX 
 
 
 
 
 20X 
 
 
 
 
 24X 
 
 
 
 
 28X 
 
 
 
 
 32X 
 
The copy filmed here hes been reproduced thenks 
 to the generosity of: 
 
 Library of the Public 
 Archives of Canada 
 
 The imeges appearing here ere the best quality 
 possible considering the condition and legibility 
 of the original copy and In Iteeping with the 
 filming contract specifications. 
 
 Original copies in printed paper covers are filmed 
 beginning with the front cover and ending on 
 the last page with a printed or illustrated impres- 
 sion, or the back cover when appropriate. All 
 other original copies are filmed beginning on the 
 first page with a printed or illustrated impres- 
 sion, and ending on the last page with a printed 
 or illustrated impression. 
 
 The last recorded frame on each microfiche 
 shall contain the symbol — »- (meaning "CON- 
 TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), 
 whichever applies. 
 
 L'exemplaire film6 fut reproduit grAce ii la 
 g6n*rosit6 de: 
 
 La bibiiothdque des Archives 
 publiques du Canada 
 
 Las Images sulvantes ont M reproduites avec le 
 plus grand soin. compte tenu de la condition at 
 de la nettetA de l'exemplaire film«, et en 
 conformity avec les conditions du contrat Je 
 filmage. 
 
 Les exemplaires originaux dont la couverture en 
 papier est Imprim6e sent film^s en commenpant 
 par le premier plat et en terminant soit par la 
 derniire page qui comporte une empreinte 
 d'Impression ou d'illustratlon, soit par le second 
 plat, salon le cas. Tous les autres exemplaires 
 originaux sont film6s en commenpant par la 
 premiere page qui comporte une empreinte 
 d'Impression ou d'illustratlon et en terminant par 
 la dernidre page qui comporte une telle 
 empreinte. 
 
 Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la 
 dernlire image de cheque microfiche, selon le 
 CBs: le symbole — ► signifie "A SUIVRE", le 
 symbols V signifie "FIN". 
 
 Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at 
 different reduction ratios. Those too large to be 
 entirely included in one exposure are filmed 
 beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to 
 right and top to bottom, as many frames as 
 required. The following diagrams illustrate the 
 method: 
 
 Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent Atre 
 fiimAs 6 des taux de '-Aduction diffdrents. 
 Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre 
 reproduit en un seul clichA. il est fllm6 A partir 
 de I'angle supArieur gauche, de gauche d droite, 
 et de haut en bes, en prenant le nombre 
 d'images nAcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants 
 illustrent la mithode. 
 
 1 vj -M: i M 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. 
 
 HON. Mr. BLAKE'S SPEECH. 
 
 HOUSE OF COMMONS. 
 
 Tuesday, 14th December, 1880. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. At this late hour of the cvonintj it is (]iiilo 
 impossible that I should hope to conchido the rem;iri<a 
 which I propose to make in answer to the speech we have 
 been entertained with for some hour;', and it is one of llie 
 advantages (I do not think altogether countorbalaneing the 
 disadvantiigos) but still one of the advantages of the form 
 of procedure wo are now engaged in, that you one proceed a 
 certain distance and can again renew your attention, Sir, 
 to the sulijoct. I shall proceed to such an hour tiiis evening 
 08 hon. gentlemen opposite think fit to have an adjournment, 
 and shall not complete the remarks which I wish to ma|jo 
 this evening. The hon. Minister of Railways spent two hours 
 and a half of his speech in a discussion in which I do not 
 intend to spend ten minutes. The courae of that part of 
 his speech, I venture to observe, was not unfiimiliur to us. 
 In fact I heard one of his supporters subsequently say that 
 ho always did like that speech of the hon. gentleman, and 
 from his point of view I have no doubt he did. There is, 
 however, one advantage which the hon. gentleman has as 
 Minister of Railways. If there is a certain degree of sameness, 
 in the general line of his speeches on the Pncitic Railway, 
 there ia always a pleasing variety in the estimates ho brings 
 forward from session to session; Whatever flights of fancy 
 fail him in his oratory, he is capable of surprising us by 
 the most extraordinary and alarming performances, whether 
 they bo of fancy or of fiction, in the way of cstimatcH for that 
 work. He has not been unequal to himself on this occasion. 
 The hon. gentleman made some variety, as it was 
 
 £ roper ho should do, in the dressing up of the old dish, 
 [o began, upon the last occasion, with an appeal that wo 
 should not drag down this debate to the low level of a 
 pai"ty discussion, and he ended with that ajipeal upon this 
 occasion. Ho rcmindeil us at the close of his speech, this 
 time, of what ho commenced it with last time. Sir, I say 
 again that I know nothing in the institution of party which 
 should disentitle any party fi-om taking such a linoupoji any 
 public question as they conceive the public interest requires ; 
 and I say that the moment I am satisfied that the lion, 
 gentleman's notions of what makes a pai-ty question, and ot 
 the degradation to which a question is suomitted by* its 
 becoming a pai-ty questio", ju-o true, I shall abaiuloii the 
 doctrine of party altogether. If I did not believe, as I do 
 in my heart and conscience believe, that the proposal of the 
 Administration, braught down to-day, is not merely fraught 
 with great danger but certain to prove disusti-oiis 
 to the future of this countiy, which it is 
 principfilly designed to serve, as they say, I should be glad 
 to give it my euppOit, and it is because I entorlaiu tiio 
 conviction that the measure is not merely dangerous, but 
 ruinous, that I oppose it at the vei-y outlet. The hon. 
 gentlema.i has said, for his loader and himself, that this is to 
 be the crowning glory of thoir lives. For his leader it is to 
 bo the crown placeil on the pedestal — though I did not know 
 that it was usual for pedestals to have ci-owns. The hon. gentle- 
 man of whom ho 8poke,and to whom ho attiibuto^l this peculiar 
 jwaition of this measure amongst liis laurels, has described 
 in still more eloquent and high-llowing terms, his views on 
 the subject.. It seems, his interest in the Canada Pacitiic 
 Railway and his joy and con^talation at the i-esults ho 
 aohieved in England are by him not expects to end with 
 
 his earthly career, but that alxivc ami 1 cyond, and from, as 
 ho nioilestly said, liohopcil a better sphere, aiiiong the joj'sof 
 that life and the avocations and contomplatioiis ■(viiich will 
 generally eiiginss his atfcntii)ii vi that liettcr 
 workl, ho hopal to be permitted to loo!., down upon 
 his friends the young men of the Club C cticr, travelling 
 from Montreal to the Pacifieat the rate of twenty-tive miles 
 an hour. Sir, I have read and heard a good many descri))- 
 tions of the world to come. The Indian's notion of the here- 
 after and the Maliomeddan'sparadise]aio fi.iniliartous, but it 
 is certainly' a new description of one of the joys of the time 
 to come, tiiat an inhabitant of that celestial sphere hlimild 
 bo able to look down and see some young fellows travelling 
 on a railway. The hon. Minister himself, speaking of 
 his own share in this groat work, hoped ho would bo able 
 to leave it as a legacy to his children. I hope ho will ; and 
 that it will be a substantial legacy — one that will enable 
 them, in all time to come, to look back with complacency 
 on this great work of the hon. gentleman's life. But, 
 while these hon. gentlemen are overjoying themselves 
 upon what they have accomplished in bringing down 
 this plan, they seem to mo to be rather disposed — ^^judging 
 b}' the time and the efforts which they have devoted to 
 proving that it does not lie in our mouths to com])lain, what- 
 ever might be the objections to the plan — to doubt whether 
 it bo not obnoxious to criticism if only fit critics can bo • 
 found. They seem inclined to think that something should 
 be said against it, but it is not for us ^o cast a stone. Well, 
 upon the last occasicm on which this question was discu.ssed, 
 I entered upon a history as brief as I could make it, of what 
 I believed was tho parliamentary history of the view which 
 had been taken with reference to this undertaking in its 
 financial asjicct, in which it has always appeared to me oC 
 most importance. I contended that there had been a con- 
 tinuous lino decision on t^iepartof Parliament, departed from 
 by no Government and no i'arliaiiicnt, that the work should 
 not unduly press on tho taxation of tho people, but bo 
 jiroceeded with in a manner which should not iucreaso tho 
 existing rale of taxixtion. That is tho keystone of 
 the position so far. That is tho view which we havo 
 always taken and always sought to enforce. Wo havo 
 contended, and shall contend again, that hon. gentlemen 
 did place this country in a position most unfortunate with 
 reference to this matter ; that they did make a bargain tho 
 literal obligation of which it was impossible to fulfil, that 
 they did make an arrangement which they ought not to 
 havo made, and which events havo proved, not merely in 
 letter butalsosubstantially, impossible of fulfilment; because 
 they bargained that the road should bo commenced in two 
 years after tho time when the bargain was made, in 1870, 
 and finished in ten years— that is, in this year. They 
 bargained that tho road should be commenced at 
 tho sea-board of tho Pacific within two j'oars; and. 
 Session before last, they declared that sulHcient 
 information had not oven then been reached to decide 
 upon the terminus of tho road at tho Pacific, which 
 ])rovcd that the}' were utterly wrong in the notion 
 that tho i-oad could pi-oporly l>o commenced at tho Pacific 
 nomo eight yeai-s ago. They bargained that it should bo 
 finished in ten years, and they osteoni it the crowning 
 glory of their lives that thov produce a contract which indi- 
 cates that it is to be finished in twenty years, I have thus 
 given two views of the bargain which show that it was one 
 
uiiii li, not iiuTi'ly literally liit iiiMiliBtaiac, wiie iiu'n|i!ili!o ol' 
 riiKilmciit. The r iivimist allies f-(i ( rcatucl, a ml llu' ii()>ilicpii in 
 wliicli llic coiiiitry wus|)lniiMl liytlu' inakiiii^ nl' lliat liai',i;ain, 
 Were nnti)i liiiiati'. Kikiiiikhih i-xjiciisi's wcio to lia\ i- I iiii in- 
 curii'il ill Miirvcys Ipcyimil what WdiiM liavi.' lici'ii lu'i'i'r^sury, 
 with tlu'vicwolprcHHiii/^fdnvardiidt'cisionns lolho rfiito. It 
 liiiim: oviT ii-i aN a lilack cloud, niul our future \v"s darkomMl 
 l>y liic idea of till' IhiiiiI to wjiiili llii' lioii. ^'ciillciiiaii li:'d 
 ]Kr>(iadi'd a nioiiliimil I'ai liaiiu'iil to sitjii. We (iiidiMVorcd 
 to adlicri' lo llial uliicii liad Ix'i'ii aiccdnl lo in ilial 
 Parliaiiuiil — llial tlic rale of laxalion sh mid not, 
 lie inii'cax'd. l'"ioin linie to linio, as the lion, ^enllc- 
 nian lias -<iid, \vc dlM'ii:.srd tlie siiliji'd ol' tin; railway. In 
 lIu' liist |)iart', until llu- last Session ol' J'arlianu'nl, every 
 hlateineiil wliicli lias lu'eii made, t'rom lillier side ol' lliis 
 Uoii-ie, as to tlie cost ol' the Canada Paiilie liaihvay, lias lieeii 
 astaleineiit made iijion a liasis as to llic iikhIc ol' it>. roii.sd'iie- 
 lioii, \vliol|\ diU'ereiit I'l-oiii tlial wliii li is now loidered liir 
 oiir eoiisidi«iatioii. A lirslcln.ss roail, and not merely a lirst- 
 elass road in tlie oidinarv seiisi^ ol the lerni, liill one 
 \vliolJy exee|)li"iial in ils grades and eiir\ I's, .so liir as tlie 
 I ratlle hound |i> Iho e.ivl was eoneerned, was the oKJeel ol' 
 Parlianu'iit and oi Ijie eoiiiitry. In so far as my Ihui. friend, 
 tlie ineiiiKv'r till' T.aiiililoii, jU'oeeeiU'd witli llie ('on.siriK (ion 
 of tliat work, he carried (Mil lliat idea, and he |il'ociiiei| liir 
 this count !•>■, at a vci-y coiisidcraMy increased cxjiensc, and 
 one wliii'h, I think, was wisely .so incrca-^ed, a road from 
 Selkirk to Thunder Pay, which, if wi^ t'aii si'cure that the 
 ciuintry and not soinu niono]iol\' --liall lia\c the hcnefil of il. 
 will n'ivc to the produces of the Norlli-We.-^t a convcllil!nt.•lcce.■^^^ 
 lo the markcls of the WorM, and .i;i\e to the manuliiciiiix'rs 
 and exjiorti'i's of the uasl a liiir ingress to that coiinlry. 
 Hut. Sir, in all llio estimates \sliicli were made, in all the 
 views wliiidi men have taken, in the very Ihciu-y of the 
 road itself, which was jirojected as a ^raiid trans-contincnlal 
 hin'hway, which was to I'arry aci'oss tlii.s continent the 
 traflie of China and Jajmii. the idea was that we should have 
 an exceptionally ^'ood and high cla.ss road. The estimaie«i 
 made Ibr the ))ur|iose of ascertaining; the cost of a road of 
 lliafc kind are wholly diH'erent liom the estimates which arc 
 |)i'oper to the jircsent occasion. The lion, gentle- 
 man al.su adverts to some H]ieeches I made, llo 
 adverted to a speech I made in 1875, and i|Uoled 
 a ])ortion ol' it i'roni the ■' Debates." Well, I am not i;'oinif to 
 hore the House by rcadin;; soiueof Iho rest of il. I am very 
 indiU'erent whether ))ortions of my s|>eeihe.sare (|noteil with- 
 out the other parts which arc neces>ai'y to a projior uiulor- 
 standing of them by a Tory liuul seller or by tho Alinister ot 
 Pailways, and 1 leave to those who take mitlicieiit interest in 
 my jM'oceodingw U) peruse tho speeches, and they will, if liiir- 
 ly read, answer iheohjeclions made to them. 1 have nothing 
 to retract in the speech tho lionorablo gontloman (|Uoted. I 
 abide by, as a;'plicab]o lo the then existing state of things — 
 ever}' sentiment expressed in that speech. The lionorablo 
 gentleman liinisiilf, in the course of his remarks, adverteil to 
 the wholly changed condition of things. I iociigni>ied 
 file other day — if I may bo ]ianloned iiir Ibliowing 
 tho hon. gontlctnnn'H exami)lo in alluding very slightly ton 
 ])roviou.s debate — I recognit'Od, with rcfcronco to the 
 changed policy of this Administration, not merely the 
 right, but the bouiiden duty of the Administration, wbon 
 conditions changed, to change thoir policy — to adopt such 
 a policy from year to yeai' as would appear boat 8uitcd to 
 tho conditions as they were existing at tho time of tho pro 
 pounded policy. And having acceded frankly to that view, 
 as amply justifying a possible change or vacillation, as 
 amply justifying any proposal tho non. gentleman may 
 make, I am a little surprised that tho hon. gentle- 
 man who has availed himsolf, and properly availed 
 himself, Irom year to year, of changes in condition 
 and policy, without romonstranco, should propose 
 to apply to this time and thoso conditions suggestions 
 
 and observations wliolly inapplicable. Sir, wougroowitti the 
 boll, gentleman (hat this question has inaih^ progri'ss in a 
 nninbcr (if years. Docs anybody sup]ioso that the circum- 
 slame that Die road from 'rhiiiider IJay to Selkirk will bo 
 finished in a year or two, is not an important tiictor in tho 
 building of tiic Paiifle Railway ? Hoos anyone supposo that 
 all tho work that was done during my hon. friend's (Mr. 
 Miu-kenzic) Adminislralion, was not iiiiiioriant work in tho 
 same direction ? S*ir. 1 call witnesses — I cull \\ni hon. gentlo- 
 iiian fSir CliarKs Tiiiipcr) himself, 1 citiniot tuin to tho 
 pai;i' ill U(iiis<iril, hut I Very well remoinbor the speech ho 
 made— aye, it was made rinco he hccaine a Minisler — in 
 whicdi he dodari'd that what my hon. friend (Mr. .Mackenzie) 
 had ilono was of more real and practical importance in bring- 
 ing this work- to com]ilelioii than if there had liceii work going 
 on ill Pritish Columbia. What thcn'i' Lias tho circumstance 
 that this Work has been going on to completion nothing to 
 do with tlii^ Ibi Illation of a contract':' There is more, Sir. 
 Thcio has been into the Province of Manitoba, not such an 
 immiu'ration as we could have desired, but slill a very con- 
 siderable immigration. Theie has been u very considorublo 
 amount of inlbrmation ac(|uired as to that territory, lion, 
 genlliunen will not deny that, because their own estimates of 
 tluM'ertilo belt have varied from year to year. Fi-om year 
 to 3oar wo are getting more news. Wo tind according 
 to tlie rc))orts that there is a gieat deal more and a 
 great deal lietter land, that there are far smaller 
 sjiaci's of infertile land mingled with (uir fertile land 
 than wo found before. Well, this is delightful news. 
 Does it not alter tho conditions — mako the prospects of tho 
 country brighter — make everj'thing connected with tho 
 lettiiig ot the contract for tho Pacitic Railway differ from 
 w hat it was formerly ? If it has any effect it must have that 
 efl'cct. Then tho attention of England and Germany, tho 
 hon. gen Ih.'nian says, has boon more and more directed to 
 the subject of tho North-Wost. — circumstances favored that. 
 Tho diliicullies which existed in England in connection 
 with the competition in cereals and in meats, added to tho 
 unfortunate recnrronce of two or three very bad harvests 
 confsecutively, havo juoduced a state of things which have 
 led the peo|ilo of Britain to look this way. And then tho 
 hon. gontlonian says, tlioro has been a slroke of genius — 
 the greatest stroke of genius which any Minister ever dis- 
 played — by the Minister of Agricultuio (.\lr.l'ope,Compton), 
 Well. I am (piito free to admit that my hon. friend the 
 Ministi'r of Agriculture is a very gonial man, but there is 
 a great dlil'ereiice between a genial man and a great genius, 
 and I think ho would haixJIy appl}' to himself tho compli- 
 ment that has been paid to liini. Tho step taken by my 
 bun. friend was, I thought myself, a very good step, but to 
 a))iily to it tho high-llown ojiithot of a great stroke of 
 genius, is, it seems to mo, rather covering tho hon. 
 gentleman with ridicule than jilacing him in his proper 
 ])osition with refei-onco lo that matter. Well, it Lad a 
 groat etfect, they say; it jilaced the countiy in such. a light 
 that we may expect a large immigration into that 
 country. Does that not alter the circumstances; does it 
 not make the Pacific Kailway a more jiromising under- 
 taking, and therefore i.s not that to be considered 
 when wo are considering whether any contract for its con- 
 struction is to be approved by Parliament ? Then there 
 was a great circumstance which now for tho first time wo 
 are informed of— a conversation between Lord Beaconsfiold 
 and tho Minister of tho Interior. It seems that it was from 
 tho Minister of the Interior that Lord Beaconsfiold derived 
 that information which he supposed he was faithfully com- 
 municating to the public. It soems that the true source of 
 that information that so astonished and amused the world 
 was from the Minister of the Interior. It is strange, 
 with that knowledge of the subject which belongs to the 
 Minister of tholnterior and that acutcuess which we all know 
 tho Earl ot Beoconsfield possesses, that the Minister of the 
 
s 
 
 I iitorior should have bcoii unnblu to mnko intolli^iblo lotho 
 Eurl of Bencormrtclil llio true HtalooC tilings, niul^liould Imvo 
 j)tit liim in such nn iiiifbitunato and ridiculouH — Midi u 
 taiighable-^pobition as ho occu|)icd when ho tnndothatnlato- 
 inont. This romindu mo ii little of iome olher works of 
 Earl Bttaconst'icld, of. some of thoso fascinating jiortraitH that 
 wo find in J'Jiidyiiiion, in which thingH aro very much 
 mixed, and you aro expected to make of a picture 
 that roprcsontis half of ono man and half of another, Homo 
 Kort of an incongruous wlmlo. llow(nor that may bo, 
 it is said that the ell'oct of those stiitomenti*, accurate 
 or inaccnrati', was very great, that tiiev did gi'oat things 
 for tho country, that they attracted the attention of linglaiid 
 and the world, as it never had been attracted before to 
 Canada; and tberelore that tiio condition of things was 
 brighter and improved, tiiat wo were more and more in a 
 ])ositioii to nuike a go<xl arrangement for tho construction 
 of tho Pacific llailway. The lion, gentleman seemed to 
 believe that he bad laid the I'onndation of Lord J'caconstield's 
 pi.'nnanence in ofKce,butthefoiuidation that belaid was rather 
 ovorturnc 1 by tho broader foundation laid by Mr. Gladstone. 
 But, he suy^i, this season at any rate wo aotod, and ho 
 made Bome informal questions and suggestions, and gave us 
 some desultory information. Well, I have no doubt 
 hon.gontlomon opposifo would not do anything less when 
 thoy went aci'oss tho water than see tho Colonial Secretary 
 and other members of the English Govornment, and do 
 what they could to ropro.sont this countrj' in its brightest 
 light, but f am rather inclinod myself to Peliovo that 
 Charles Parnell and tho state of Irolund have more to do 
 with tho announcement of tho now jiolicy of tho English 
 (iovornmcnt, than Sir Charles Tuppoi* and Sir John Mac- 
 don nld. 
 
 Mr. MACI<;KNZIE : It is another Charles. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Yes, quite another Charles. A complete 
 change, tho lion, gentleman said. bad taken place in England 
 as to Canada, a complete change had taken jilaco in 
 ))ublic sentiinont at large as to tho value of the lands in tho 
 North-West, that change bad been largely promoted 
 b}- the success, the remarkable success, of tJie enter 
 prising proprietors of the St. Paul and Manitoba Bailway. 
 Against those gentlemen I have not a single word at present 
 to say. What I have to say, with reference to that corpo- 
 ration, I will say later on, and it will bo nothing that would 
 not apply, so far as I know, to most corporations in similar 
 circumstances; but I am heartily glad to hear such words 
 of laudation and praise and contidonco in the proprietors of 
 that enterprise as fell from the lips of the uon. Minister. 
 There are recorded in tho " Debates " to i*hich tho hon. 
 gentleman so repeatedly refers, sorao less pleasing senti- 
 ments with rofoienco to ono of the most important in- 
 tlnential, wealthy, active and intelligent of those corporators. 
 1 could find it statwl by one hon. gentleman, on the floor 
 that be was a liar, and by another lion, gentleman thatlicwas 
 ii cowawl. Well, now we find he is all that is good. 1 always 
 thought these epithets were luideserved, not merely 
 violations of tho courtesy and dignity of Parliament, but 
 wliolly undeserved and uinvaiTantod. I am glad to bear that 
 the hon. gentleman now alisent, who was thus stigmatized, 
 is to-day vindicate)! bvthe hon. the Minister of Railways, who 
 has given him such a good testinu)nial, because amongst tho 
 lot 1 do not suppose be is left out in the celd. I suppose in 
 the wholesale conijilinient that has lieen paid, no one of 
 these corporators has been left out. Well, I remember a 
 gre:it many other remarks that wero made at that time 
 against the proprietoi-s of that niihvay company', iiTCspec- 
 tive of the slightly personal observations to which I 
 venture to allude. 1 rememlx'r when wo wero told that tiny 
 were unpaliiofic, that tho late hon. member wm unpatriotic 
 for interesting himself in an American railway and 
 that he was acting agivinst tho interest of Canada in tho 
 
 conduct of that railway. 1 never lu'lieved that there 
 wa> any hon. member of this IToiise, even any hon, meinbi'r 
 wiio expressed those sentiments, who would not have jumned 
 at the chance ot' being in the shoes of the nii'inbwi' tims 
 sjioken of if he had the otter of gclting a share of the fortune 
 wliicb .he hilc hon. member bad by bis pluck, skill and tacts 
 acipiireil in this cnt(^i prise. I llioughl tliosc nb>iervations 
 entirely unjust. I belit'\'e lli:i( any of us would be (jiiitf 
 (li-ilMiM'cl Id find our torlune, cmmi if it was south of (be 
 boundary line, and would not feel oursi'lvcs by iniliiotie 
 ni"livi's deterred from making a I'cw hundred thousan< I dollars, 
 allliougli we could not nniki' tlieni wilbin tin' limits of this 
 country. T believe that in the conduct of their biisines.s 
 tlicM genlleiiien have acted jusi as all (lersons in such business 
 ilo act. They have acted with referem e to their commerci.'d 
 interest; ami. 1 believe, in de.iling with them or any other 
 cfU'poration, we shall have to consider the question of 
 interest, as concerneil in the management of human afl'airs, 
 as a tolerably constant, cci-tain, and important (|uantity. 
 Now, tli(^ hon. gentleman declared thai be bad got some 
 fresh estinuilos. Last year we Avere brought, as I have 
 slated, liu' the lii-st lime, fiuc to tace with a new pi'oposal au 
 lo the style of the c(mslruelion of the (^-uiail.a Pacific 
 Eidlwii^*, and (be lion, gentleman brought down bis Chief 
 Hngineer's rei)orl as to what, aceonling to that new stj-le of 
 consliuction, thi^ iliH'creiit sections would cost. JJelore the 
 boll. gentleMuin made that statement I had rei|Uesleil my 
 lion, fiiend Irom Lanibl<in, who, as I be lion, gentleman has 
 rightly said, W!i« thoroughly fiimiliar with Ibis subject, 
 viewed ni the light in M-bicb wo had viewed it up to that 
 day, to reconsider the whole (pieslion of cost, aceonling to 
 tlie^old style of construction, and to come to a coiiclusion 
 as to what aceordiiig IIk- advice of the ciigir.eers shotdd 
 be the est i nude of cost. Tlu^ hon. gentleman hoped to find 
 .some divergence between the views of the hon. member for 
 Lambion and myself; but I stated to the House that my 
 estimates were those of the lion, member for Lambton. 
 
 Sir ClIAELES TUPPlvR. You aro wrong in saying, I 
 hoped to find a difTerenco of opinion. 1 was delighted to find 
 that you agreed. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Well, the hon. gentleman feared to find 
 some divergence between myself and tho hon. member for 
 Lambton, although 1 had stated to tho House that those 
 estimates wero not my own, but those of the hon. member, 
 which I ndoi)tod in full confidence that thoy wore as good 
 estimates as could bo )ireparod for the construction of that 
 railway according to that style. But tho hon. gentleman, 
 reading my speech, and reading tho speech of the hon. 
 member for Lambton, made a contrast between that speech, 
 as containing thoiie estimates of that cUuss of road, and the 
 
 Eropo.sal which be brings down for our approval, and wo 
 card from tho hon. gentlem.in quite a disingenuous criticism, 
 1 will not apply the word disingenuous— I will not say it is 
 misleading — but 1 will s.ay that the hon. gentleman fell into 
 an unfortunate oiror when ho forgot, in making that 
 comparison, that tho conditions wero wholly ditfcrent. 
 1 slated in my speech expresslj* that 1 bad no material for 
 criticising or forming ajudgmont upon tho csliraatos that 
 tho Minister brought down, that that estimate was ono upon 
 which I had nogrounds fora judgment, thai llio stalemont was 
 that tho road was to bo mado as eheapl\ as possible to safely 
 carry people over it, with sharp curves, heavy gradients, anil 
 as light a syst«m of construction as tho works could by any 
 possibility bo made, lioad the description in tho contract, 
 read iho description in Mr. Fleming's letter, road tlio hon. 
 Minister's own statement of the route and contrast its subject 
 matter with my hon. friend's estimates, and you will find that 
 to coni])are the prices of one with tho prices of tho other 
 is to proi)oso that copper and gold should be value 1 by 
 their weight as of equal value. Now, I have not to-day 
 any means of judging of tho hon. Minister's former estimate. 
 
 ;now 
 'tho 
 
I siiid tlioii tliiit wo ro(|ninHl Id Ioiow t)iu ilutails oi' liiOMo 
 ONtimatL's boforo wo could Ibrin a juclicnicnl, variou« details 
 as lo llio f^radu.y and curves, and didails uj)on tho most 
 important quuslion of all — what, will it cost al'lor you have 
 imilt yo\ir elioan and unsalisfiietorv rond to convert 
 it in duo season into a firsl-clasH rmni. My own appro- 
 imtion, (^iviii as it was lo liio Minister's scdiemo, 
 was guarded by tho tlcclnration that it was imjxjs- 
 sibie to form an indopondoiit Judgment upon tho pro- 
 ])i'ioty of that Hclicnio without that knowloilgo; ho thut, 
 whothor as to tho cost or as to tho ])r )piioty of tho Hcheme, 
 1 novor havo had an op|)orluuity to form a judgment nor to 
 ox])ress any accurate opiidon at all. It was even Iohs than 
 a year ago I uttered that speech, but oven, if it had 
 been, as tho Minister observed, a wliolo year ago, 1 
 Bhoidd bo disposed to adhere to it. 1 (ind nothing 
 in those estimates at all inconsistent with tho views 
 I entertain today witli reference to tho gentlemaii'a 
 statement; and if 1 did find anything inconsistent, if 1 did 
 believe that I erred iti any statement I had mado in that 
 speech, I hope that I know enough of my duty to confess 
 my error and aal upon my iiresontjudgnient, whatever that 
 may be. 1 havo not yet been able to lind that tlioro was 
 any error in tho estimate 1 then mado, or in any other 
 KUgfrestion of tho s|)0cch. I did say 1 thougiit tlieso 
 cslimates liad boon brought down rather suspiciously 
 and for a ])iirp(iso. At that tiuio the object of the lion, 
 genllonian win to .-how that this roail coidd bo well cou- 
 Blructcd by tho Government in the mode in which thej* are 
 proposing to construct it, at :i ^mull cost and with but little 
 charge to tho country, and with that view he laid boforo us 
 the two side-; r)t' ''lo account. Ho .-bowed us (Irst of all what 
 money ho w; , ;■ iiig toaslc us to expond,' and, Kocondly, 
 what ho was expecting to receive iVoiu the lands and ho 
 proved as I 'iltod, if his premi.'^es were true, that we might 
 •safely ah .ifully proceed at once to construct not merely 
 
 tho midd. .d tho we.-t but also tho eastern link. I stated 
 that, and 1 stated also that if tho hon. gentleman's views 
 were correct as to tho routes and cost.it would bo all right to 
 go on with tho rond aa it was. WoU, tho hon. gentleman 
 was satisfied then that ho was right ; ho finds now that ho 
 has erred, lio finds that having attempted upon that 
 occasion to procure the vcrj' lowest estimate that could bo 
 procured of tho cost, and calling upon tho engineer, as ho 
 did by tho letter of the 15th of April, which is in tho report 
 of the engineer, to make an estimate of a very choaj) road, 
 tho cheapest road that could bo built, and pointing 
 out to lum tho element of reduction in cost 
 which occurred to lum to be important, ho got the 
 figures down to a point which was surprising to us 
 an. But we had not tho materials for Judging of tho 
 accuracy of the estimate. His estimate embraced tho Thunder 
 Bay link, the Prairie link, and tho Briti.sh Columbia section ; 
 but we hear him to-daj' informing us that ho was all wrong 
 in that estimate as to those links that tho estimate was too 
 high. As nearly as I can calculate, at the moment, there is 
 a sum of about four millions and a quarter to bo saved from 
 tho estimate of tho hon. gonlloman upon these items out of 
 the sum of 83u', 500,000. 1 do not profess to spoak accuratolj', 
 lor 1 had not an opportunity, except for an instant, of 
 glancing at tho figures. 
 
 Sir OlIARLES TUPPER. I estimated for equipment 
 as well 'M for tho construction of tho road. 
 
 Mr. BLAKLO. I am quite aware, although tho hon. 
 gontlonum omitted lo mention it in his speech to-night, that 
 t iiat must havo been one of the grounds of reduction, although 
 he applied tha whole reduction to savings. I was about 
 to tall his attention to that fact and ask him whothor 
 that was not an element in redjction, but I may add that 
 it could not have been a ver^- serious element in reduction, 
 because with referenco to equipment tho hon. gentleman's 
 
 estimate was of tho most modest proportion. It is doolarotl 
 in the pajtcrs that tho estimate for the equipment was not for 
 tho permanent running of tho road but only such as might 
 bo nooessaiy for tho Irafllc which was expected immediately 
 on it»j opening. Tho hon. gentkman will find that I 
 am correct in saying tliat tho enginoor's estimate for tho 
 Pembina branch, as found in tho letter of tho Kith of April, 
 is not based on a full equipment. 
 
 SirClIAKLESTUPPKR. From Fort William to Sol- 
 kirk, 1 estimated a lull e(iuipment, and « very light equip- 
 ment from l{ed Kivor westwaiil. 
 
 .Mr. BLAKE. Tho Engineer says: " Whatever the increas- 
 ing trallic of future years may demand in tho way of tor- 
 nunal accom.nodalion and rolling stock, I am confident tho 
 lino can bo o|)oned for tradlc between Fort William and 
 Selkirk, and well equipped for the bu-^inoss which may then bo 
 «!xpected, at tt cost not oxceeding $17,000,000." It is quito 
 clear he did not mean a full eciuipment, but an adequate 
 equipment which would servo a population of a few ihou- 
 Hands which wore producing hai-dly any surplus grain 
 for export. lam not complaining of that ; I think it is a 
 very businessdiko arrangmont to limit tho equipment 
 relatively' to the wants of the road. I asked the hon. gentle- 
 man then, but ho would not vouchsafe tho information, what 
 was the cost jier mile of tho estimated equipment for any of 
 these sections, and I know not therefbro how much of tho re- 
 duction ofwhich ho now speaks may be a legitimate reduction 
 But the eqidpment of the rest of tho line was to l)e of tho 
 veiysughtcst character; it wasanominal sum that hail been 
 placed l()r theeqiupmenl ofthe Yale-Kamloops section, if any 
 sum, iuid therelore almost all tho reductions on that section 
 and on the ])rairie antl J'ort Moody sections would be on 
 actual ascertainment that those estimates so given. pre))ared 
 with the view to bringing the cost down to the lowest point, 
 had failed wholly of that object, and had presentwl a condition 
 of affairs entirely ditlcicnt from the truth. But -what 
 ama/.ed mo was,that while 1 found the lion. gentleman, with 
 relerciice to these ]K)rtions of the work "which the Govern- 
 ment is alxmt to construct, lrium])hnntly ])()inting out the 
 errors in his estimates and taking credit to himself for tho 
 proposition that he was able to save four or five millions 
 more, he was rather disposed, with reference to tho 
 conti-al section aud tho eastern section, to a<lopt the estimates 
 of my hon. ft'iond (^Mr. Mackenzie) apjjlicablo to a high 
 da.ss railwa}'. Now, is the House going to imugino thut 
 those engineers who over-counted the cost of tho lino from 
 Thunder Bay to Selkirk, then in a fair way of being com- 
 pleted, with reft'rence to Mhich it wiis most easy, ono would 
 judge, to have Ibund u Just estinnite, who over-counted tho 
 cost of tho Yttle-Kamloo)is section, who over-counteil tho 
 cost of tho Yalo-Mo(xly section, is the House going 
 to suppo.se that they under-estimated in.stead of over- 
 esliuialeil the cost of the other ])ortions of tho line ? 
 Is it true that while Mr. Fleming made a mistake and told 
 us thai it would cost us $3^,500,000 to do what costs under 
 the new, the revised estimates, )ierhups $29,000,000 at tho 
 outtiifle — is it true, I say, that while he erroil by way of exag- 
 geration as to those parts which are .to bo constructed by 
 the Government, thut he erred by way of deficiency as tf» 
 the parts that arc to bo handed over to the Syndicate, 
 or that tho engineer's over-estimate prevails throughout 
 tho line ? Just the sumo reason applies to those 
 other sections; just tho game views apply. Ho over-esti- 
 mated as to tho east, ho over-estimated as to tho middle ; 
 ho overosti mated us between Rod Eiver and Kamloops; he 
 over-estimated as between Nipissingand Thunder Bay, just 
 as ho over-estimated on the other points ; and therefore I 
 think wo may fairly say that Wo havo this tost of the cost 
 of this line as proposed to bo constructed in the minds of 
 the Government, or which was in their minds when 
 thoy let this contract. If it bo true, as a mutter of fact, that 
 
hi^'h 
 
 the etitimatoH of Iiist year have pi-ovod to bo orroncouH, 
 not by boiiif? too Kiniill, but by boing tooj^'cout, tboii tbo cohL 
 of the wholo liiiu is to bo roclucod by tho Huino iiinount u)i)iru- 
 ximutoly to by olovoii or twelve poreont. ; thut is Iho romilt, 
 nnd wliat wiw to cost, according tothcMinii*tcr'Ho.stiinulo, in 
 full, including mirvoys und all, $8(),000,000— but «s ibis 
 reduction ap|)licil only to 'lioso particular i)aitH, wo 
 will Hay $ft2, 000,000 — would bo loducod by tho huiu ofnino 
 or ton inillionM of dolhu-H in all. That is tho ru.suit of lliu 
 hon. gont'einan'8 oslimiileH ; ho Iiuh nothing to do with our 
 estimu'os, ovon if our ostimatos had U> do with hi.s li!io. 
 Our oHtimatos havo not to do with his line. They iiavo to 
 do with u lino of an onliroly dilForont character, but il thoy 
 had to do with his line, his j)ropOHition is to bo dofondcd, 
 i.ot upon our erroin of judgmont, but upon his own correct 
 judgmout. llis proposition is to bo defondod upon tbo 
 basis which ho himself makes for it, and hu eatmol ]>iop ir 
 up by iniHtakos — if raistakos thoro wore — on tho jiarl ot his 
 ojipononts. lie did not believe in our judgment; ho did 
 not act upon it; he said it was all nonson.-c, and pursuiidcd 
 Parliament ho waa right, and went on. Now, ho says : " It 
 is true I erred ;" and ho says; "I encd by extravagance 
 of estimate. I did not err in j'our diioeiion; 1 erred in 
 the other direction." Now, he suggests thai this error ai)])lies 
 only to those parts of tho roiKl wliich tlii> (Jovei luuent, 
 under an arrangement not dreamed of at tliat time, and con- 
 summated tho other day, is itself to build; aii'.l as to iho 
 parts of tho road which tho .Syndicate is to build, tbo 
 hon. gentlomtin sa^'s: "But I won't talk oi my own 
 estimates of last year ; I won't talk of my estimates of last 
 year, reduced on tho same basis as I reduced this, but I will 
 applj' to them tho estimates which I ridiculed last year, ap- 
 plicable to the higher-class road of my hon. friend fioiu Lamh- 
 ton." Tho hon. gentleman says that the Syndicate arc to lie 
 Judged as to their part of tbo work by the Opposition's 
 estimate of the higher-class road ; thai the Government is to 
 bo judged as to its part of the work by its rcnbu'cd, and then 
 again reduced, estimate of its pai't of the road. Il will nut 
 do. lie has got to take his estimate lor all or 
 none, and tho Ilouse and tho country will not' believe that 
 such an extvaoi-dinary fact to(jk ])lace as that these mistakes 
 were mwle only as to theae jmrtieular links in the line, and 
 that a ditfoi-out mode of calculation was adopted as to other 
 ])arts of the lino. Therefore, if that applies, that confidence 
 which the hon. gentleman expects anil wldcli, I have no 
 doubt, a majority of tliis House will atfonl him, in his state- 
 ments as to tho parts that tbo Goveniineiit is going ti) build, 
 will inevitably bring tho original to this conclusion that, 
 /'ranted tliat tlie part that tho syndicate is to build is 
 Midjstantially of the same class, tho estimates of last 
 year arc to be reduced in tho same proportion, and that, 
 therefore, tho work which they have to do and 
 the money thoy have to spend is diminished by several 
 more millions than the work that tho Government has 
 to do is diminished by the lion, gentleman's 
 calculations. Now, that is the true situation. What have 
 we to do with any former estimates made by any man oi- 
 by any Government ■? We have to do with tho estimate 
 which in tho belief of the (rovernmont, impressed by them 
 upon the Ilouse, by thcui adopted and by them said to-day 
 to err only in excess — the estimate which thoy brought for- 
 waixi as being the real cost of this work — that is what it is 
 to be judged by. That "is what is meant if their action is to 
 bo Judged by it. Suppose, for oxamjilo, that the hon. gen- 
 tleman had brought down a proposal to pay 8120,000,000 in 
 cash to the Syndioate for the construction of this road of 
 this class, and said to Parliament, "It is true, gentle- 
 men, that last year I told you this road would cost only 
 $8(5,000,000 ; 1 found I made a mistake, and, in jioint of fact, 
 it will cost only $7I>,000,000. I have contracted for its con- 
 struction at $120,000,000, but my all sufflciont defence is 
 that tho metnbor for Lambton thinks it will cost $120,000- 
 
 000, and, therefore, you will at onco agree with "mo that 
 
 I was jiistilied in giving tbo Syndieato the dillerenco," and 
 th:it i.i |iraeiienlly the argument of the hon. gentleman; 
 tliat is pruclieally his dideni'o, in so far us tho i|uestion of 
 estimates upon llio contract he has made. The iion.genllo- 
 man went to work to make contrast::, and here again 
 eireumstanres whtilly ditl'er. lie talked of the values of 
 lands. He allujcd lo speeches which had been made by 
 hon. niend>eiv: at various limes with n-li'i-enee to the silling 
 values of lands in (be Xorth-Wc'^l. He rfleriiil to a >|ni'(h 
 oCmine made at the lime the Foster eonlrat't wiis under dis- 
 cussion, in wliii'li 1 expressed my own opinion then as lotho 
 value of lamls in the A'ortli West to the coutrMctor at that 
 lime. What was till- eonililioti of tilings '.'' Tlii-i was not n 
 eontiiu-tor, Mr, Chairman, who was almut to ImiM a railway 
 through the lands which he was to receive. Tliis was not a 
 contractor who was !i!iout to ii'i'ive lands through which a 
 railwa\' was presenlly. or, as tar a-* he knew tit all. about to 
 be biiiit. This Was i( contractor who, at that time, was to 
 ieeei\e lands in the North-West whi're there was no ]M'esent 
 ]U'os|iec( of there being a railway at all, and i! was with 
 reference to that country, ai that lime, wilh its then popula- 
 tion, with llie then estimni ion as to the lertile area, with the 
 then views of l'".nglir<h ami foreign • )ieoplo about 
 it, wilh the then prospicts of railway communi- 
 calion, wilh the eireuinstancei- that the contraeior was not 
 to lie idile to utilize and make markelable the lands liv 
 building the railwiiy through llieui, thai liiat o]iinion was 
 expressed. Sir, I do 'lol hold myself bound, to-ilav, as to 
 tho present condition of things in the North-Wesi liy any 
 opiiuou, as to lands, expresed at that day mid on Iho then 
 condition of things in that country. 1 Inive evidence on this 
 Hulijeet— evidence which i sliidl read to llu^ Ilouse — eviilence 
 which, 1 think, will convince the House (hat tlie hon. gen- 
 tleman, in this|>iiriicu!ar, as in the tiuiner particular, resorted 
 to a wholly indelen^ihle mode of argiinu-nt when he 
 proposed lo I'alsily his own estiniiites of the value 
 of lands in the ><ortli-\\i'st, by reading the views of oilier 
 gentlemen, expressiMl many years beliiie, as to their value, 
 and ii>ikiiig us lo ;issume them to be true for the jnirjiose of 
 judging bis contract. Now, Sir, let me, betiire 1 go further, 
 jioint out a gross error in iho sugtfestions which have 
 been made with reli'icnce to the value of blocks of 
 railway lands. Both the former ]iropositions which involved 
 the construction of this railway by the money gi'ant and the 
 subsidy of lamls, were based upon one common view, tliMt 
 the money should be relatively n sm.all iiniount, !ind thai the 
 lands should be reliilivelya large ipianlity. This |)ro]iosi lion 
 ditlers in that cardimil |)articular fiom'lliose, not indeed, 
 as 1 shall show, that the lands are of a small iimount. but 
 tho money and tho money's worth are of a very lariio 
 amount, but I am at pi-esent concerned simply in elucidaliiig 
 tho one proposition. The hon. gentlemen o])]iosile hiive sjxiken 
 of 50,000.000 acres to be given under the ongimd propo-ition 
 of the late and present (iovernment, and of Iil1\ iouf and 
 tifly-iive millions ofjieres of railway lands to l^e given under 
 the Pacific Railway Act of 1S74— they iiave talked of tlioo 
 larger blocks of lan.l as if they were worth, and to lie 
 estimated aero for acre, as much as a block oi' 2o,Cli0.00l) 
 acres of railway lands, iind llic\- l;ave said: "Jfvoit value 
 25,000,000 aere"i of land at Sl.OI)' per acre, that is" gliS.OOO,- 
 000 ; then CiO.OOO.OOU acres of land are. of course, worth 
 $50,000,1)00. No such thing. Sir; iiir 'ditlerent. If to 
 825.000,000 in monev voii add another $2.'>, 000.00 i. the second 
 825,000.000 is after" all Just as valuable. Il will buy us as 
 much as tho first. But if to 25.000.000 ticres of hind's, rela- 
 tivel}' dose to the railway, you mid 25,000.000 I'clatively iiir 
 distant from the railwiiy, you give an eipial acrea;ce,' but 
 j'ou give by no means an equal vivluo. It does not need 
 argument to demonstrate that, hut I will give to the Com- 
 mittee, because the hon. gentleman docs not ajipear to 
 place reliance on his own views, I will give tho Oommitteo 
 
mill llio coiinli'V (iriKtt'tliiil will !«< HaliHfactiii'x'. In liio firrit 
 S^'s^<illll III' thi^ I'm li'lliii'iil tlic lioii, uciitk'niilii ln'(m;j;lil (Im\v?\ 
 u |iiiiicy Hii- ilii' (•oii>lruiliiMi o|' ilic ('aiiiiiliiin I'mitic Hall- 
 way liy the a|iiiii'prialii)ii n\' 10lt,(i(l((,0()i) aiTcs <>(' laiiil liir 
 llial |iiii'|Mi.i', anil lliii (idvciaimciil look aullinrily to sell 
 llial tiart 111' laiiil al a |iriri' hkI K-hm IIimii two liiillarH an 
 iii'io. Durinic ''"' ii'i'c-.n ilicy t'lilly coiisiilficil 1li<> nimlo liy 
 ■\vliifli llii'y wiiiilil luili/.i' the («ni>iii\i)iis ]io\Ni'fM willi wliicli 
 this Jimi-'ii cIkIIhmI tli(ini, aiii| llii'V raiim to Ilio ('onciiision, 
 wliii'li, wlinlhci'- itH oxaci flifare^ lie conoi'l or not is ini- 
 nialcrial, I'lil wliicli in Hiilislaiifc wai in(ii-t|iiitalily corivct, 
 that tlu>y hail inailc a iniitiiko in MiT^C^lini^ a 
 ]in»'o of two ilollaiM, nnil thai tlio ]iro|HT way to 
 n-ali/.o out of this 10i»,(HI(( (MiO of ano an avi'i'a^o 
 )irict! of two ijiillars wa** to urailiialc the pi'icc of tlio 
 laniis in ivlalion to thvir jn'oxinuly or rcniolcni'ss fi-oiii 
 the lino of luiluay; to sell tlios(< whii'li luv close 
 a' ti liiu'li rale, ami those wliifh arc ontsidn at, a 
 low rato. So salistl(.'il wore thi'}- lliat this view would 
 C'otniminl itHoiftn I'arlianiont, that ihoy took — anil I do not 
 ffrcatly hlanio llu'in lor it— tho j,'rus'(> icsponsihility of forni- 
 iru; a jilau, and aclualiy iiroccodcd to adverliso the nnlo of 
 thoii- railway lands undorlhal losolution, u|ion torins which 
 handed over vciy noaily one-half of I ho whole 100,0(10,000 
 iieres at a ]irico ot one dollai' an acio instead of two, and 
 yi.'l, Sir, u]iiin terms which woald jiroduec, upon the ave- 
 ifHo of thewliiiie sales, not merely two dollars, hut $2, 13 
 an acre for the wlioln hundred inillions. How wj^ that 
 achieved, the hon. ^'entlcniun asked ? T do not know 
 whether or who i the Minister found out ho was all wrong 
 ahout it, hut he Muid that iho latuls within tivo miles on 
 each Hide oi the railway were worth tivo dollarH an acre. 
 \,hy? Jkcau.-^o it wa^ clotio to tlio railway. llo 
 said that the tifteon miles outside on each side of 
 this, mal;;ii„f two strips af;^'re;;atin,i^ thirty miles, 
 ■were woi'ih l.jiir dollars. Why not worth rive ? Becuuso it 
 was a little larlher oil. AVliy worth four V JJuonusc, after 
 ail, it was pretty near. Ho said that the twenty miles helton 
 each side of this lifloun miles hclt. making two- Htrips of 
 twent}' miles each, were worth three dollart) an aero, 
 {iraduatcd according,' to distance. llo said that another holt 
 of twenty milos on each side of the lasl-moiitioned holt was 
 wiulii two dollars an acre. Why two dotlara? Boeauso 
 it wa.s lurther otf; and hu said that two holts of fifty miles 
 in the extreme outside were worth only one dollar an aci'o, 
 because they were lo lar from the railway. Now, if you go 
 to worlc, having made j-our ari'an<,'emcnts and assigned 
 your values— having decided what the relative values are, 
 conditioned by the proximity of the lands to the railway — if 
 you go to work to atscertain what is iho value of 25,0aii,000 
 acres to be taken as close, the alternnto block eystein will 
 allow to the railway, j'ou will ascertain eortaln figures, 
 aijd llion, having taken those obviously at the higher 
 I'aiige, you will lia-.o to go to •Aork to get other 25,000,000 
 to mtdvo up the r)0,000,000, and you go outside 
 lor it ; and equally obviously you will have to 
 tiike them nl the lower rate of value, and so I have demoii- 
 hliated without referring to exact tigiiies, that lx)th by 
 reason :uiil by your own ik^iermination, 50,000,^00 acres of 
 land to he taken in alternate blocks, as close to the railway 
 as 50,0(.'0,000 could be Ibund, would not he worth, acre for 
 acre, anything like as much as 2."), 000, 000 acres taken as 
 close i\- tlKit smaller aggregate could be taken. The pre- 
 cise ligiiirs 1 shall givi^ the Committee presently. Well, 
 then, J prove to you that in this particular the hon. gentle- 
 man is wholly wrong when he compares the former 
 pro|K)sitioii ibr the consli'uction of this road, which involved 
 the cession of very lai-ge areiis of land with the outer or 
 surplus parcels remote f.oiu the railwa_y, with the ))reseilt 
 ])roposal. The twcuty-tivo millions added are not oijual 
 in value to the inner tv.enly-tivo nullions common 
 to the two proposals. All tho other conditions 
 
 have to lie also coiiHliIered. Take the one iijvui which 1 
 have already dilated, the class of the road. Were the 
 former proposals to build this kind of road? Not at all. 
 T'hey weri! to build a high<'lass railway; and of courno we 
 gave the appropriate pi'iee, and therefore you cannot 
 comjiare the iiroposiils for Ihe construction of tho 
 cue kind of road with those tor Ihe constniction of 
 Ihe other, uidesH you decide wdiftt the proper <lirt'ereiu'o 
 in the jirico of tlie two kinds of rouds is. Perhaps, 
 Mr. riiairnian, at this advanced hour the Committee would 
 prefer to adjourn as it would lake me some time to complete 
 mv remarks. 
 
 A ITER llECESS. 
 
 Wkdnesuav. 15th December, 1880. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I |irocood, Mr. Ciiairman, to endeavor to 
 ascertain, by tho light of those figures which were ["o- 
 Honted to im last year, and those figure* which wero 
 presented to us last night, what tho cost of the road, such 
 as wo are to obtain it is, what tho consideration which 
 tho ('ountry is to give for its con.striioiion by tho company 
 is, and what are tho advantages to be obtained by tho com- 
 pany, pecuniarily and otherwise. 1 think 1 have already 
 siifliciently established to thoCommittoo that tho estimates 
 of cost for a first class road aro estimates which aro wholly 
 inapfilicable to this structure. But I intend, when I roach 
 that particular i)oint, to give a few more facts and 
 figures thai" those which have attracted tho 
 attention of tho House in other discussions, 
 and in this discussion upon that subject. Now, we aro not 
 here lace to face with anything less than conclusions 
 deliberately reached by tho Adminiatration upon tho advice 
 of those most competent to judge as tx) tho cost of this 
 ruilwa}^ It is to these figures that 1 appeal, and upontheso 
 figures tho Administration cannot object to bo judged with 
 roforonco to this contract. Tho cost of tho railway in cash, 
 as estimated last year, and including in that cost tho 
 telegraph lino and the subsidy to tho Canada Central, and 
 also fifty miles extra of tho lino to tho north of Lake 
 Superior — because that line was calculated last year at only 
 (iOO milos, upon tho view that before it was commenced at 
 least fifty miles would bo constructed by tho Canada 
 Central, and, thoroforo, it is only fair to add 
 that to the cost now, when it is pi"oposod to 
 commence at South East Bay or near it — I say the cost of 
 the i-ailway, constructed as the Government propo.sed to 
 construct it, and including those three items, was $88,600,000. 
 From Thunder Bay to J{ed J{iver, 817,000,000 ; reinbiim 
 Branch, 81,750,00(j; ]{ed Biver to Jasper House Pass, 
 lSl;{, 000,000; Jas]ior House IVs lo iCamloops, 815,500,003; 
 Kamloops to Yale, 810,000,000; Yale to Moinly, 83,500,000 ; 
 an extra 81,000,000 spreiul over tho British Columbia sec- 
 tion; the line along tho north sliiire of Lake Su])erior, to 
 which 1 have refen-eil, 820,000,000 ; the extra fifty miles to 
 which I have referrtnl, 81,060,000; the Canada (.'entitd 
 subsidy, 81,450,000; telegrajihs, $500,000; surveys, 
 83,110,000; making an aggregate of 888,485.000, iiot 
 differing at all from the hon gentleman's (.Sir Charles 
 Tapper's) own statement, except to add the two or three 
 •tems to which 1 have refbiTed, and which, in considering 
 the cost to the country of this enterprise, must, of coni-se, 
 be added, because we have ])aid those suiuh. Of this 
 sum of say 888,600,000, wo have already, according to the 
 statement laid on the Table tho other day, actually paid out 
 in cash no loss a sum- than 81f', 000,000, and tho ititerest 
 which wo have already paid for the money we have borrowed 
 to enable us to pay that $18,600,000, is about 82,000,000 : 
 
HO that llio Paciflc Riiilway nccount, in nrinoipnl nml 
 ihtorcol, hIihuIh ul lliirt iriumciil at «■()ll^illo^ably tnoro tli.iii 
 $-•0,000,000. Now, the foht of tlie railway, ncMordiii); to iho 
 nivised oHlimalos of tliin y».nr, boi'aii'<o, :im I liavoolMorvod, 
 llio cost of llid I'acilic llailway, iindor tlio hoii. jjcritluiiinii, 
 is a eotiMtaiitly docrcasiiiL; qiuintity in point of estimate, 
 altli()iif;li wlion wo (•onio to tlio iMmt'.'acl with llio ('oin|jaiiy, 
 tlio roNiillH may and will ai»|ioa" to lio very iIiII'iMpiiI ; llic 
 coMt. I f-ay, ai coidin/Lf i<> llio rovisod rsliinatOH, l>i'oiiglil <loWh 
 i)y tlio Mini.stcr llio olli'3r cvoninj^, in this : llo di%'iilcd the 
 lino into thieo imrcois — from Tliundor Hny to SLdkirk and 
 tho i'omhina Jliancli, llio Yalo-Ivamloops soction, and tlio 
 Koc'tiori from Yalo to J'ort Moody — which wore oslimalod 
 lust year ailo{;olher at 85-,SOI),000, and ho riMlnccd tho 
 cost of IhcMo to 82S,or,0,000. I liavo e.sli.nutud that 
 of that reduction $1,000,000 in properly apjilicahlo to 
 cquipmont and . terminal ncconimodation, havod to 
 tin- fomitry ami to ho imposed upon tho Ssiidieato 
 liy the teiniH of the harf^ain. 'Ihal would I'ednie the saving 
 ill the sha|)e of exeessive estimate to 8;{,500,000. There 
 Would he a sum ot'|;}l,.'>00,000 of work, now represented li\- 
 $28,000,000, there hein!,' thus a Hnvin;,' of 8;{,r)00,000 o"n 
 j;n, 500,000, or 11 per eeut. upon tho hon. gontleman'H 
 CMtimato of last yoar. Now, tho other work, which was 
 ostimatod on tho wimo principle, in tho same view, by tho 
 same man, at tho sumo timo, was to cost, from Hod fiiver to 
 JuHpor, $13,000,000; Jasper to Kamloops, $15,500,000; 
 half tho extra million on the British Columbia Mcclion, 
 $500,000; tho North Shore lino, $21,6t)(i,000, and tho pay- 
 ment oi'$l,000,030 for wtock, &c., taken off tho (rovornment 
 calculation of ita part,— making a total of $51,()G(!,00) to 
 bo provided in the same way by tho Sj'ndicalo. Jkit of that 
 $51,UG«,000, I appropriate tho $1,000,000 formerly men- 
 tioned and another $I,ouO,000 for cquipmont on tho contra! 
 and woHtorn part of tho central Hoction, and tho ostimated 
 caving, applying tho same saving to these estimates that 
 tho hon. gentleman has found applicable to tho other cs! iniates 
 is upon agi'oss.Hwmof $4t),<i(Jti,000, or a saving of $5, 4'!3, 00 
 or Bay $5,50 ,000. Ho that the tetnl cost of the work to ho 
 done by tho Syndicate, roachos the sum of 81(),iOO,000, 
 inclusive of equipment ; the total cost, which I pointcMl out a 
 moment ago, was $8^^,500,000, is by the hon. gentlemen's 
 fortunate economies rcducwd by ?0.t)00,000— $3,500,000 on 
 tho Government sections, $5,500,000 on the Syndicate sec- 
 tions. Thus the grand total of 8Si niiilinns i> ii'<hieed to 7!'^ 
 million dollars by the oju'ration of the hon. gentleman's 
 economics. That, then, is the cost, as comjiarcd with 
 tho cost last year, of a cheap road, including in that cost all 
 tho expenditure of the exploratory surveys, tho telegraph 
 linos, the Canada Central subsidy, and also that extra piece 
 of the North Shore to -which I tulvortod. I say the cost of 
 a very cheap road, and it may bo just as well to point out 
 what style of road it is, ho tiir as tho Government sections 
 arc concerned. Tho hon. gentleman in a letter to his 
 engineers on tho 15th April, said: — "The policy of the 
 Government is to construct a cheap railway, building it 
 rather in mlvance of settlement, with any workable 
 gradients that can bo had, incurring no expenditure 
 beyond that absolutely necessary to eifcct tho rapid coloniza- 
 tion of tho country." The engineer in answering, quotes in 
 a note to his answer : — 
 
 " I am convinced, innrpover. thnt liy milking an rxtri'me study of tlic 
 linal location of the Ilritish Ooliimliia section, by shBrpciiinji; tlie cnrva- 
 tme in some places, by using ((leat juilgiueut iiud adjusting nliganienta 
 to the sinuosities and sudden and great irregularities of the ground, by 
 Bulistitnting cheaper classes for the more costly, whenever it can be safely 
 done, and by doing no more work than is absolutely necessar)-, a marked 
 reduction can be made." 
 
 That, Sir, is a short account of the style of road to which 
 
 those estimates of last year rofeiTed, to which tho hon. 
 
 gentleman reduces tho estimates of this year, ivnd it is tho 
 
 stylo of i-oad which, so lUr jw tho Govonimont sections arc 
 
 conoei-ned, vre ore to oxpoct to sccuro by the end of ten 
 
 jears as our eoiitribuliMU to tlu' tran^rontiiunla! railway. 
 As lo tho Compaii3''n pari, one might naluraU} expect oil 
 such an arrangement that they would have Hoinething 
 like the same slaiuliH'd. In fad, unless we get a very 
 long link of railway of a sujierior standard, Ihero 
 is very little use in interspersing large quantities of 
 supeiior with large quanlilie.t of ver_v inferior work, 
 loryoii eaniiot haul u lai;;i' loud ovei your railway iftlu'reai'o 
 here and the:e viry b.til curve.-, iuiil grades. Allhou.;h 
 it is, of course, heller that you slmiild have a level ro.al 
 for some jiarl. yuu still are unable, jir.a tically, iinh'ss 
 ^■ou li;ivc a ver}' long link of goo I railway and 
 then manage to divide tho load along tho biul 
 railway, to do iiioio than half work. At an\' rale llie 
 standanl given by the contrad lor Iho Syndicate is, as we 
 have already, I think, fully salislhctorily iliscovered, 
 not a very elevated .standard. 1 have referred to 
 tho standard, und the llouso will romembjr, wiihoit 
 my onco again reading tlio dixninient, that tho conlr.ict 
 prescribes tho standard ot tho Union I'iiellii', l{vil\v;iy 
 as lust construetod as tho Mt'.iMd:ii'(l of thoCanalian i'aciiie. 
 Well, the former conlrael proscribjl tho standard of tho 
 Uniwn I'acitic as it w.is ut tJiat tlay, an 1 pi'oscribed, not 
 that absolutely, but with tho rosorvatiou of objoelionablo 
 ])oints in that standard, and a |in)visii;n that inicrior 
 alignments and curvatures should not ujiply, but that 
 bettor work slioidd bo done whorovcr it was possible tlnix 
 was dono even at that timo on the Union Pacitlc. 
 I was a little surprised lo hoar tho hin, gontloman, in his 
 speech, tho other ovoning, qnoio the Allan cintract as 
 ono of iho pieirs JKStilicdtivcs of tho Clovornment. It did 
 Hoom to mo it would have been tbo ])art of discretion to 
 hiive lell out all allusion to that conliajl in this (^onrioclion. 
 ]3ut, tho hon. gentleman thinking, fiom his iinporfoct 
 recollection of it, that ho could vindieatj tho terms ot this 
 contract by a reforonco to that, lugged it into the discussion, 
 and we now Iiud that, bad as that eon!;. i-!, wai in m:uiy 
 rcspcct.s, this is, in tlio particular for which the h")n. 
 gentleman cited it, very much worse. However, unfor- 
 tunately, the hon, gentleman may have succeeded in guarding 
 tho public interest in the matter, wo know ho and hi.s 
 colleague, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, stood upoii this 
 occasion, in this particular, in a very much better position 
 than they occu])iovl on a former occasion. Wo voiy well 
 rctnonibor lliut. upon a fornior occasion, Sir ILugli Allan 
 declared in writing, that engagements had been made by 
 his agent with inferior Ministers, of whiidi engagements ho 
 dill not approve, thinking those Minislers not worth powder 
 and shot. The hon. gentlemen have since received tho pro- 
 motion duo to so much merit. They aro no longer inferior 
 Ministers, but important, influential Ministers, whom it is 
 quite worth wh'lo to make engagements with, und who are 
 eminently worth i)ow<ter and sliot. They iirocncdod to 
 England in their advanced capacity of impoitunt Ministers 
 to make this contract, and wli;itovor tlicy ma}' h.ivo been 
 able to accomplish for the country, I hope thoy have been 
 able, not merely to obtain an ample recomponso for 
 their • broken eng«gemonts of . tho old days, but 
 to take good security that their like engagements for 
 the future bo duly impiomcnted. What wa.i Iho 
 Union Pacific ]?ailroad when it was first built? In tho 
 first place it was an iron ro.nd, not .a steel one. It was made 
 of such bad iion that, long before it was finished, 
 tbo rails on tho earlier portions wore worn out, or almost 
 worn out. It was a roatl on wliicli almost all, I might s.'iy, 
 all tho structures were of wood. Tho I'cports on this enter- 
 prise are to be viewed with suspicion. It was an enterprise 
 which, like other Pacific ILailway cntorpritos, was tho 
 subject of great scandal. It was discovered that members 
 of Congress. had been bribed ; that tho Government director, 
 appointed to guard the national interests. I think his name 
 was Brooks, had himself boon bribed with a largo sum. Uo 
 
W'tin llic jioi'HOii who iiiMj)in'il itiiil (lliintcil llio arriiiij^oiiioiits 
 (or fiovrnrnii'iii iris|i(c(ii>ii, and li('l|n''l to (doparo the ri'|iiirt!* 
 — ail oxfclloiil nrrnn^^i'inciit, wlioroliy tlio iiilcroits nl tlio 
 comitiy iiii;.:lit lui mmlo lo hnrnioiii/.u with thoso jiiivnto 
 i1it(!ri'HtH wliicli lio HO iidmiriilily ^^imnlod by obfniiiinj; this 
 Iar(,'(' hiiin of innncy. ISotwilliMlmulin;; all that, willi llio 
 voiy cnmcc ami loiinlniii oC iiiM|i('ctioti ho liiiil, llio inport 
 ol llic Si'oivtai}' ill l^fi^, liofoio tlio road wiih coiiiiili'tt'd, 
 Init wiioii {•"iiHlnH'tod ('i>r llio ^(it'iiti'r iioi'tioii of itn 
 Iciijifli, jMnlioin 'iiiviii^ liocii worUi'd mhiio tiiiu', wiit Mumo- 
 thiii^r of tliis kind: ilioic wi-io f,'iadioiit.s of 80, of (Jti, niid 
 iiiinu'i'ouH f;radioiitH of })(), Tiio roiiort niiyn : 
 
 "Till' Iniik liii^, wllliimt rxci'iiliDii. lii'.'ii Ijild mi tlii' liiirc riiiiilHay, 
 wilhiiiil li.iviii^' lii'iii ini'viniHlv |iri'|piu(cl Id rcrcivr it. I^v Imllnsi ; us ii 
 <'i>ii''ii;iK'ni't', cM'i'pt wliiM'f ciiiriiiiikiiii'iiH liii|>|M'ii til ill- linilt, tin' Irnck Ik 
 cntinly wIiIkmii ImiIIihI, tliu iii'i'i'Kniii'v tiiiitcrml having liad tu bu liruuj^lit 
 u|i lor lla' till' .iiikiiii'iiu lliiiii-trlvt.-i.' 
 
 Tiio rcporl jirococds: 
 
 '• Frcm (iiiialm t(i llio pnd ol llio timk llio nmnlior nl slriiotiiroH wlilcli 
 were ilifiiioil |ioriiiiiin.iil iillir tlio roiiJ linil liooa ooiuiiloloil so I'ur — " 
 
 and llio pliiMM' iH iiiipor(ai:l, not BtiiKitiu'CH which wcro por- 
 inanont, liul wcro '• tiooiutd ' ]i<.rinaiii.'iii — 
 '•WHS u luinilioil mill titty, (if wliiili tiioro ■WM only one in iron." 
 One iron hridgo, hut in tho naino distanco, bcnidos a liun- 
 (licd and lilty Mtiiicturcs deoniod pormaiioiit, thcro woro hIx 
 hundred and ninety-four that oven a hribod Government 
 diieition could not iiidiici> an iiiKpeclion to doein pormanent, 
 and they wcro called temporary. Tliero wero nearly oi^'ht 
 inilos ill length of temiiorary woolen Htnicturos ; in fact, it 
 was almost iiuill iipiiii »liltN, and of tlioso nix hundred and 
 iiinely-four stiiictiircs, nearly eij^ht miloH loii^, no 
 ioHs than hix hiiiulieil and t-ixty woro then coiuleinnod 
 at that eui I}' ]ieiii)d and ordered to bo replaced. And 
 a very largo Miin of money, six or seven inillions of 
 dollars was, 1 think, in tho Ibllowing year estimated b}' 
 favotaliv inclined jicixms to bo necessary in order to put 
 this roaJ, which had not then been fini.'ihod from end toond, 
 but to put il .-o far as it had been constrncled into a roason- 
 ahlo t^taio as a road. Itofcronco has been mado, and will, I 
 dare .>-ay, again bo made, to a rejiort of 1872 which is open 
 to suH))icion al.'O, but which sjieaks of the road in a wholly 
 ditt'erent condition ; in a wholly dilVercnt condition as to its 
 ;,'radijs imkI curvei!, even still more as to its ballanting, as to 
 its iion, !i.s to its bridijiiig and so forth, from what it was, as 
 I nay, when llrst Pon.struetfd, which is tlio sitccitication that 
 our careful Government lias acceded to for tho 
 standard for our railway. Wh}', Sir, 1 think what has 
 hapjiciud to-<lay ought to induce the Ministers theiiisolves 
 to ]iio|iose to wilhdraw at once the coni^iileration of this con- 
 tract. It is obvious thai they have been deceived or misled. 
 We find they themselves say tliat they thought tliey had 
 si'cuivd llir this cotiiitry a stiiiidard ofconstructiou lor tho 
 railway v. holly ditlcivnt from that which it turns out they 
 have Mcuird. J wish. Sir, that we could call to the Bar, U])on 
 this and other questions relating to this contract, liir examin- 
 alion the attorney of the Compan}'. [wish we could bring* 
 him hei'e anil examino liim, and liiid out 'wliat, in 
 his view, the meaning of tliis clause was, tind if, in addition 
 to the opinion which \n} should give us at tho 13ar. wo 
 ihould havi! the benefit of the able legal opinion, within 
 these \vall>, as ho Avoiild give it in tlic ]niblie interest, 
 of the boil, luenilier from Argenteuil, wo should in 
 this coiillict of opinions, reach the truth, and the truth 
 would convince us that this is no contract that 
 wo ought to sanction. What more fatal blot 
 can there be on tho contract than the fact that tho Minister 
 of Railways should have suppoocd that ho is obtaining all 
 that the Allan contiact secui'cd whon ho hau secured 
 Kfuiicthing iLs different as it is jio.'^sible to conceive fi'Otn tho 
 Allan contract? I-et ine give you a littlo uioro informa- 
 tion about tho original airangeiuoutsfor tho cuuslruction of 
 the Union Pacific Euilway. I will road you au extract 
 
 from a rejioi t on the construotign of G7R milos of that road 
 called the Oakos-AmoH contract, which was arranged to bo 
 transfori ed to Iho ('rodit Mobilior, and which was tho origin 
 of that halo of glory which has Hurroundod tho Union 
 I'acitic IJailway over8ince: 
 
 *' Tlio pitily III' tlio m ml piirt iiiny liiivo the rlRlit to rliiiiiKC llm l(r\u\a 
 
 mill niinitiiro williin tlio lliniN nl' tlio ,\( t iil' CnnnrcM I'lir tlio li'iii|iomry 
 pili'|iiMo III' IiiihIoiiIii); tlio i'iilii|ilotion i)l tliu ininl.' 
 
 And tho same provision exists in n prior con tract for ono 
 hundred miles, so dotorminod wcro they lo haitten tho 
 construction for ]iiibli<^ and private reiiHons ; f"or public rea- 
 sons, because the rapid construction of a railway acoss tho 
 continent was deemed an important thing by tho United 
 Stales Governinont at that time; for private I'oasons, be- 
 cause tho vast land grant was so arranged that tho more miloti 
 they oovorod tho more land they would got. So anxious wero 
 Ihoy to construct that road in any way that they might 
 cover ilie ground, that thoy mado an express |)rovision for the 
 construction of tho greater portion of it on alignments ami 
 with curvatures and gradients which wero not intondod to 
 be permanent, wlii(h could not bo worked pormanontl}', but 
 which still are tho alignments and gradients upon wbicli 
 tho Union Pacific IJailway was first constructed and 
 which are, thoreforo, the standar.i for our railway. 
 The honorable gentleman may be unfortunate enough to re- 
 peat an allusion ho mado aa to tho cost of the railway, as some- 
 thing proving to us that it is a high standard ; 1 am 
 entitled from tho line of his argumontu to anticipatesome such 
 HUggontion. There wero many ingredients in the cost of 
 the Union Pacific Ilailway. There was a time of war, a 
 time of inconverliblo curi-oncy, of high labor, a time of 
 very groat haste and expedition. Ono of these contracts 
 provided that on every pleasant working day, two miles of 
 road should be laid ; and it was under such circumstaucos, 
 under such pressure, that tho Union Pacific was con- 
 structed. But this is not all; there is more behind. Let 
 mo read an extract from the report of tho committee on 
 tho operations of the Company who constructed that road, 
 and the hon. gentleman will see how it was that tho Union 
 Pacific came to co.st so much. 
 
 "Tlio moil who ooiUroUcil the I'nloii t'ftcific resorted to tho Uevito of 
 coiitiiKlluf? with tlioiii9olvp3 to Imilil tlic road niid fix a price hi)(li 
 oiiou^h to iciiuiru tho issue of lioiula to the full cxtcat, and then divide 
 tlioHo lionds, or the procccda of thoin, under the name of prolita on the 
 
 loud.'' 
 
 This is the report of a committee of the House of Bepro- 
 sontativos on tho Credit Mobilier scandal, and it goes o.: to 
 say of tho United States, what, ono maj' hope, cannot yet 
 bo said, but what, one may fear, might be said some day, 
 of Canada: 
 
 '• Tlii.s country ia fust becoming filled with gigantic cor|iorat!ona wield- 
 ing and controlling imnicnsc uggregations ot money, and thereby com- 
 mnndiug great iuHucnce and power. It is notorious in many 8tat« Legis- 
 latures, that these influences arc often controlling so that in effect they 
 liccome the ruling power of the State. 'Within a few years Congress has, 
 to some extent, been brought within similar intlueilcfs." 
 
 Let nio road another short historical extract, as tho hon. 
 gentleman wants to know more — for wo find that he does 
 know but little — about tho Union Pacific Eailway and tho 
 contracts of tho company : 
 
 " The Union Pacific Railway Company was largely dependent on the 
 nid furnished liy Government for its success. The managers of tho com- 
 imiiy, being shrewd business men, succeeded in placing all tho burdens 
 and risks of the enterprise on the general government, while they reserved 
 to thcmsolves all the profits to be derived from the undertaking." 
 
 Of what road, Mr. Chairman, am I talking ? Is it the 
 Union Pacific, or the Canadian Pacific ? 
 
 " Reduced to plain English the story of the Credit Mobiller is aimply 
 this : the men entrusted with the management of the Pacific road made a 
 liargain with themselves to build the road for a sum equ.il tu about twice 
 its actual coat, and |iocketed the profits which they estimated at 430,000,000 
 which came out of the pockets or the tax-payers of the United States.'' 
 
 Mr. Chairman, allow me to substitute for tho words " with 
 themselves " in this extract " with the Government " and 
 
I "with 
 It" and 
 
 woHhall havo a quotation oiiually appliculilo to tho nrosont 
 Htato of circnmHtaiicoH. I havo nliown whnf, according to 
 ho MiniHtor'n oHtimiitoM oflaMt year ami liin oHtimaton of 
 hiMyoar, iH tho wmt of tlio(!anii.liiui PmiHc Railway in tho 
 muiinor in which tho work \n propoMOil t<> ho < nnstnulod, vi/,. : 
 188,600,000 or $7!),B00,0()0 upon tho r>'(luco<l oHtiinato, 
 includin/^ in thin tho ("aniula f'ontnil Huhniily, I ho toloKrunh 
 lino and iho oxlra fifty miioh on tho north Mhoro ot LiiKO 
 Superior. Now, I propoMo to aHcortain tho cohI to tho country 
 of tho ranadian Pmiflc Ifailway hy tho proposotl 
 anangoniontH for tlio rouHtruction ot that "voi-k according 
 to each yoar'n OHtiiniilon. ! ' will (IrHt lako it up 
 acconliiig to tho o-itinuiloH of liwt yoar, and noo iiow 
 it workH out. A»i'ording to lant yourV cHlimatoM, fmni 
 Thui.dur Hay to Selkirk wim 817,<M)0,()00, and I doduct for 
 ••quijiniont wliich ilio Hyndicuto iw to provider $100,000, 
 loaving$lC,(iOO,000 tvihoiixponded hy thorountry ; Iho F*om- 
 l>iua Branch $l,7S0,00i), lunl I doduct for accommudation, 
 which is now to ho iirovidod by tho Sj-pdic.ito, $li50,000; 
 Canada (Vntral, 8l,4V),00 ', tolc^'raph^ $50,000, tho Kain- 
 loopH and Yalo, and Yaio and Fort .Moo<ly Hoctiftnn a half of 
 tho million for thti IhiliMli (Johiinhia soctioii, which 
 iM innortinl in hulk, which make $14,000,000, loss cipiip- 
 inonl for tho Uritish (/olumiiia soclion, 8;t50,0()0, 
 |13,G50,000. Add for tho sid)sidy $25,000,000, and y..u«otaN 
 o total in acduid canh — oxclusivoofintorost — (>i'$01,'^l!),(iOO — 
 Hay $(il,800,000. I nay, exclusive of interest, thorn is the cost 
 in cawli to tho country undor tho proposed arraii;;oinontrt of 
 proeurinj; tho conHti-iu'.tJon of the Canivlian I'acitic llailway. 
 Well, if the total oxpondiluro, as poi- I ant year, will amount 
 to $SS,500,000, and tho cost tinder this arrungetnont wiw 
 $fil,80ll,000, it will leave $2»;,70'',000 to ho jjn.vidcd hy the 
 Syndicate. If you adopt this year's iwlimutos the cash 
 to he provided hy tho country is rwluced hy 6;!,50(i,()0tl, as I 
 have alremly shown, and that loaves the total cash to he 
 furnished hy tho country in thai view, 85^,300,000. Tho 
 cost of tho whole work hy this year's estimate is rcvlucoti hy 
 $0,00 ,0')0, so that the total cost is 87!', 000,0(10, wliicii leaves 
 the dill'erence hotwcon $.')S,:;00,000 and $79,500,000, to he 
 provided hy tho (!onipany — $21,200,000 otdy. For tho sum 
 then, ol'82t>,700,000, according to last year's ostitnatos, jind 
 of $21,200,000 thi.s year's, tho lands are yiven. The lands 
 roj)rosent the equivalent o( certain sums dependent 
 on the estimato which tho hon. Minister, after mature 
 rofloetion, is dispoHod to take. f am not disposed to 
 permit him to adopt one line of estimate for (ho Govi'rmenl 
 work, and another lino of estimate for the Symlicate work ; 
 hut whichovor estimate he pleases he may takeasapplicahle 
 to lx)tli. Say that the standai'd of construction is the same, 
 and the estimate is tho same, he finds thiit he has made out, 
 bj' his lirilliunt operation of tho other evening, a saving to 
 tho Syndicate of tho ditferenco between $26,700,000 and 
 $21,200,000, being $5,500,000. Well, Sir, tho privilege of 
 freedom of taxation on the road alone, if 3-ou say nothing 
 about tho taxation of tho lands at all — the pi'ivilego 
 in perj)0tuity of freedom of taxation on the 
 whole Canadian Pacific Railway is woilh more 
 to tho company owning tho road than this 
 $21,000,000 or $26,000,000. I think, if I am not 
 miHtnkcn, and I am open to correction if I am, that tho 
 taxes paid by our standard, tho Union Pacific Railway, 
 are about $270,000 a yoar, for a much shorter road. If you 
 capitalize that you will got a sum of over $.1,0(10,000, as 
 representing the value of freedom from taxation of that 
 road. I need not say that our road is very much longer than 
 the road to which 1 havo referred. But even if you value 
 tho freedom from taxation of the lands at nothing, then, 
 what about tho lands? These lande are to bo within 
 twenty-four miles of the railway. According to tho estimate 
 of the Government made by them in tho recesB before the last 
 Session of Parliament, and whi6h they published to the world 
 as the terms of sale of railway lands, confirmed by them 
 
 during' tho hint Sowdon of Parliament, when thoy brought 
 it down and doelarod it to bo a mix* nto ontimato ; 
 further conrtrmod by them when Ih.iy a~K . Parliament to 
 sanction their going on with tho work on those regulation* 
 and principles, and Htill turliior confirmed, in this Mormu at 
 any rate, when they announeod, as liioy havi repoatoilly 
 annoimcod, that the proni)octM of selling lands in the North- 
 West are infinitely brighter today, iTiat tho land is worth 
 moro to-day than it was a year ago. According to this 
 view, which wo may tako as a minimum OHtimate, there ia 
 CHtahliHho<l for lanclM to \w finind within twonty four miloi 
 of tho railway, an average price of 14.01 an aero. 
 
 Hon. .MKMHKRS. Hear, hear. 
 
 .Mr. MLAKK. Well, the hon. member for Niagara, 
 and other memhorH, think that a wholly ridiculous estimato. 
 
 .Mr. PLUM H. Wo do. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I did not hour that tho honorahio 
 member for Niagara thought it a ridiculous estimate 
 when hirt chief and loitdor propoundoif It hiHt yoar. 
 I did iio' hear hon. gentlemen think it a ridiculoua 
 estimate when they I'jected, by an overwhelming 
 majority the proposition that this lailway could ho 
 paid for wholly out of the lands. Hut I'ow (ho cumo 
 IS dillerent, an>l the etwe being altered alters the case, and 
 tho hon. gentleman, tho ease being aliei'«Ml, and hiri 
 chief being absent, sneers a( and ridicules hiscliief's estimato 
 of the value of tho land. I may exjilain, Sir, since thoro 
 iU>poarH to bo u little incredulity on this subject, how it is. 
 The ton miles range, or rather tho two ranges of live miloH 
 next tho railway, wore valuiHl at live dollars an aero; 
 that would give you 5,208, ()()(( acrcsat tho sumof 8(i,OH,(lO(); 
 the two tifteon miles ranges next to tiiis. m;ikiiig Ihirly 
 miles in depth altogether, were valued at S4, which 
 would give you 15,i.24,iiOO acres at «(;.:,r)()ii,ilOO, and 
 eight miles of the next range — the throe dollars 
 range— woulil give 4,l(iO,000 acres at $1 ■,."»H;i.0OO or 
 tho total valuation lor 25.0t)il,0(»0 acres, of $101,000,000. 
 But, of course, taking the range o('di.-)tance throuu;h whi(!h 
 this railway is to travel, ancl li'iun which this land i- U) bo 
 taken, and coiihidering that it is to bo taken only in 
 alternate i,'ocks, and liat cot tain sectio'is aro appropri- 
 ated for tho Hudson's iJ.iy Company and for .school unds, 
 there ai'O not 25,000,000 acres, at any rate, of prime i|uality, 
 which this Company will alone condor^ctiid to lake, avail- 
 able within twenty-four inili ■ oll'ihu main line of the Canada 
 Pacili(! Railway; and, Iheretore, the observation which I 
 have made so far would i-xlond only to so much l.md as 
 was to bo founj on the main line within the twnnly-l'iiur 
 miles, which I havo roughly calculali'd to he perhaps 
 about 12,000,000 acres. Hui, althougli there will noi bo tho 
 whole acreage on the main line, yet these contracting parties 
 who have been strugidi tig with one anollier lor so many 
 weeks to see who could makes tho best bargain, saw 
 a s(dution of that <lifBculiy, and it was this : if tho land 
 cannot bo fi'Und within the twonty-foui' miles of tho 
 main lino 3'ou can select tho choicest sjiots 
 of tho North-West for situation, for .soil, for 
 commercial pros|iecls. forrailway building. You m ly decide 
 to build a railway to the land >o chosen, and you m.iy, on 
 ranges within twenty -four miles of these liram-h railways, 
 select land of a quality which 30U are not aMe to tind 
 within twenty-four miles of tho main line. Aiul, tlierol'oro, 
 I su3', wo may not unfairly count this privilege, given to 
 the.so persons, to choose out the choicesi spots and run 
 railways through them, as making the remainder of the 
 t.'5,000,000 acres of a value equal to thai which shall be 
 acco|)icd b^' them, within iwenty-four miles of the main lino. 
 I think, Sir, it may not be u-oloss for me to prove by a 
 publio document, something of the value of i ,ch a 
 privilege. 1 have before me the |)rospectus of the Manitoba 
 and South- Western Colonization Railway Company, which 
 
10 
 
 in pluciiig on the London market itn bonds, and the stato- 
 
 xaent it makuH iu : 
 
 •' The Icugth cf this rnihvay iu 295 mill's, of which the first section of 
 119milcd is under contract, and at Icadt 50 niilca arc to lie opcnid li.v tlie 
 lat of September, 1881. The (iovernor Oeiieral has approved of iv report 
 •fthe Privy Council of Canada, recoinmeiidinff a grant to the company 
 at tlie nominal rate, mark you, the nominal rate— of $1 an acre of an 
 area of hind eiiuul to 810 acre:! per mile, commencing at the south-west 
 of the boundary of the Province, so tliat it is outside of the Province of 
 Manitoba that this land lies. It is estimated that a judlcioiia reaiiicationof 
 the land would iiroduco to the company the sum of -i-, 00,000 sterling, 
 or $10,000,000, and the company ha,» refiTsed oll'eis made to them for 
 large iiortions of that hind at i?5 uer acre. In another jiart it is stated 
 that this line is to be constructed for i::i,000 sterling or $15,000 a mile, 
 and the result is that the fortunate stockholders— and iMlicre are members 
 «f Parliament among them, I hope they will share among lis all — will 
 liave an admirable commercial railway constructed free of cost, and 
 probably four or five millions^besides from the sale of their lands.' 
 
 Well, Sir, yovi thus find that there uro jniuls of very great 
 value to be had, outside of Manitoba, bcj-ond the rnugo 
 of twenty-four niiles of the Canadian Pacifie Eaihvaj-, 
 which can bo ojiened up and made ealcablo at $7 
 or more per acre, by railways which shall be, as 
 this railway is declared to be, good 
 ■nicrcial enterprises. Bu( the least you 
 is, that the company will not find it 
 to take that area of its landti which it cannot find within 
 the twenty-four mile belt in the waj- I have stated, and 
 that they will go on — althoiigli they are not bound to do l;; 
 — spreading out to a sufficient distance to enable them to 
 take the 25,000,000 acres fiom along the main lino of the 
 Canada Pacific Kaihvtiy. It is obvious that if the Company 
 docs not do that, it is because they c;"i make more monej- by 
 going furtl 'f ofT', aid liiilding 
 they do adcjit Ihe lormcr alterna 
 
 accuidin^'; to the estimates of the Goveinment, fifty-five 
 milc^ from the maii^ line of the railway in order to got their 
 25,000,000 acres. Thoy, of course, take the five mile r: ngo 
 on each fide, the fifteen mile ?4 range, the twenty mile 83 
 range, and 15 miles of the $?. liinge.and canying out the ^amo 
 
 paying corn- 
 can suppose 
 advantageous 
 
 !i raihvaj'. But sup])Oso 
 ive, they have to run out, 
 
 liguies and ajjilying them to the 25,000,000 acjes ,'o 
 
 taken, you find them worth, according to the view 
 
 of the Govcrnm.ent last year, — of course they will 
 
 put a higher e.-;timate on them this year— $79,500,000. 
 
 Take them as you can take them along the line of the 
 
 Canada Pacific Pailway, stretching out to a ]ioint 55 miles 
 
 from that line, and, ticcording to the Government's view, the 
 
 mir.imuni value of the lands is 79| millions, I think, Sir, I 
 
 have n(jw proved, bj- figures, tlie absiu-dity of those aigu- 
 
 mcnts wbidi luivi- hovn based ujirm the idea that a giniil of 
 
 80 millions of acres iilong the railway is worth as much acre 
 
 for acre, as a grant of 25 millions within the 24 miles 
 
 ^■r;t. I have shown you that the Administration 
 
 bi.> committed itself to the sound, the unquestionably 
 
 . f (hTiiiible view that the nearer the railway, the 
 
 21 cater the value,and that by consequence the smaller acreage 
 
 t' "11 from the inside must he worth very much more than 
 
 nn :qui talent, .and may be worth very much more than a 
 
 much larger area taken from the cv.tside. Let me illustrato 
 
 this position. To take 50,000,000 acres as was proposed of 
 
 railway land.'V within the limit of the 220 miles range, or 110 
 
 miles belt on each side, you bad to go, of course, 55 miles 
 
 further on each side than I have already brought j-ou. You, 
 
 therefore, take five miles of the 82 belt, and fifty miles of 
 
 the 81 belt, and the value of these fiftj--five miles, 
 
 or a depth of 110 miles, according to these same 
 
 hon. gentlemen's estimate, was 27J millions of 
 
 dollars. So that while the whole lands were worth 
 
 the $106,'750,000, taken as close as the sections would enable 
 
 you to take them along the line of the railway, the inner 
 
 lands at 83.18 per aero are worth 879,500,000, and the 
 
 outer at 81.11 per acre, 27J million dollars, or an average 
 
 for both of 82.13 per acre, 1 do not enforce these views by 
 
 any arguments of my own, I am simply stating the deliberate 
 
 estimates and views of the Government of this country 
 
 confirmed to bo correct, by an enormous majority of the 
 Parliament of this country at its last Session of Parliament, 
 and by those who are now disposed to disjiuto them. Well, 
 I pointed out a while ago that the country was to 
 expend in cash, under this arrangement, on the estimate 
 of last year, $61,800,000, and now at what shall 
 I value the 25,000,000 iicres to be taken within twenty-four 
 miles of the main and twenty-four miles of the branch lines? 
 Shall] vjiliie it at $4.04 or $8,18 per acre? If you take 
 $4,04 we add to the $01,800,000 cash $101,1(00,000 for lands, 
 making- an aggregate of $162,000,000, land and monej-, for 
 this eriterpriso. At Xhv $3,18 we a<ld $79,500,000 to the 
 cash subsidy, making an aggregate of $141,300,000 for the 
 enterprise. And^ if you reall_\- will insist that 25,000,000 
 acres of land close to the railway are worth no more than 
 25,000,000 acres at a distance; if you will turn yourbiick ou 
 every view that you luive entertiiinwl on this suhject before; 
 if you will bring down tin Order in Council annulling your 
 formerdeclarations, and declare thi\t$2 only is the value of 
 land close to the railwiiy, we find tin tiggregate of $5(t,000,000 
 for lands and $(J1,800,000 cash, or a total of $111,800,000 in 
 lands and money, TheConipany is therefore to get the railway 
 completed iind the lands on last yciir's estimates for the cash 
 expenditure of $51,660,000 less the $25,000,000 of subsidy 
 which the country provides,fo that, according to the estimates 
 of last yeai', this work and these lands are to become the 
 property ofthis Comj)any for the cash expenditure by them 
 of $26, 700,000; so that, according to the est i mat fs of Ittst year, 
 the Comptiny, deducting the Ciinadii Centrtil Ptiilway .subsidy 
 and the telegraph line, if they are worth considering iu 
 these millions of figures, is to g.; this 8162,000,100 worth, 
 or $141,000,000, or $111,800,000, according as you value the 
 lands, for $26,700,000. Now ] will ajiply myself to this 
 year's estimates and see how they run. On this year's 
 estimates, the country is to expend in cash anil work.s, 
 $5^,300,0(0. AM to that the amount for lands of 
 8101,000,000 and the total is 8159 300,000. Take the 
 lands at 879,500,000, and the toliil is 8137,800,000. Take 
 them at $2, and the total is 8108,300,000, and applying 
 the same reduction for over-estimate, as 1 have pointed out, 
 the Conipiinv will get the completed railwiiy luid !imds for 
 an expend i'iure. of 84(i,20O,0i'O, less $25,000,000 or for 
 $21,200,000. This subject will bear a little examination in 
 another light, as to the tivails of these lands. 1 may begin 
 my task by convincing hon, gentlemen o]>pof^ite, with 
 reference to the avails of the lands, because I go upon 
 figures to which they have given their cordial assent — no, 
 I do not say I do that, because 1 do not ask them to accept 
 the enormous figures of last year, the mistaken calculations 
 of last year — I pointed out the errors in those calculations 
 last j'car amounting to some 26 millions odd dollars, and I 
 Jim inviting them now only to swallow the reduced figures. 
 Well, the Government's view was that there would be 
 10,880,000 acres of railway lands sold within the next ton 
 years. Of course, these lands would be spread 
 over all the ranges, the view being that the reduced 
 price compensated lor the increased distances. That 
 gives you lor the inner half 25,000,000 acres, 5,4i0,000 
 acres, and for the outer half the same amount. 
 The result of these calculations would be, giving to the 
 Companj- the proceeds of the sale of the half of the total 
 lands, allowing their proportion on the true average — not 
 on the average the Government calculates, — ^which is higher, 
 811,2t.9,000 in the ten years. But then that is the gross aa 
 to the expenditure ; if we adopt in all, for surveys and 
 mantigement 82,400,000, 1 shall divide that sum into two 
 parts, assigning $1,200,000 to the homesteads and $1,200,000 
 to the railway lands; and as the Government bears all tho 
 expense of the survey's and management, I attribute to the 
 Syndicate $270,000 of the $1,20(1,000, and to the Government 
 tho remaining $930,000 on the railway lands sales. Tho 
 result is a not return in ten years of $11,000,000 to tho 
 
11 
 
 Syndicate on the railway lands, there becoming duo thero- 
 altor to it on the sarno sales, 88,580,000, making an aggregate 
 of $19,580,000 actually got in in part and in part due and 
 bearing interest, while the Government having the outer belt 
 only of the railway lands, for their proportion of sales, on an 
 equal area receives only $3,80:1,000 within the ten yeai-s. It 
 loses $930,000, the cost of tlie surveys on the whole bolt and 
 of management, receiving a net amount, if it comes in, of 
 $2,933,000, and to come due thereafter $2,942,000, 
 an aggregate of $5,875,000. But that, of coarse, 
 is not all, according to the calculations of hon. gentle- 
 men oj)posite, that Government will receive, because 
 we have yet to deal with the homestead fees and pre-emp- 
 tions, from whicii Government expected the large sum of 
 $10,(J21,000; from which deduct $1,200,000 as half the 
 expense of surveys and management, and you have a net 
 amount of $9,421,000 to come in, and $9,590,000 to come 
 duo thereafter, or a total of $19,000,000 not from homo- 
 steads and pre-emptions to accrue to the Government. 
 The sum from railway lands and pre-emptions coming in 
 within ten years is, therefore, $12,350,000. But $12,350,000 
 net is not near enough to pay the interest 
 on current expenditure. So, adopting the cal- 
 culations of the lion, gentlemen opposite, and con- 
 lining them to the bargain, the Syndicate will have 
 realized out of its lands, selling only as much as the Govern- 
 ment expect, some $ I 1,000,000, and have some $8,500,000 
 <lue. They will have been practically able to pay off 
 the whole amount out of 5,400,000 acres necessary to 
 build the railway, in addition to what they have got from 
 the country, while the Government, for its $(30,000,000, will 
 havcgot in a sum that will not nearly pay the interest on those 
 $60,000,000, leaving the whole of its capital account 
 untouched. Do you tell mo you will got moi'o for your 
 lands, that j'our prospects are brighter, that you may expect 
 more than the tigures I have given ? Tell me how much more 
 you will get, and then we will calculate how much more the 
 Syndicate will receive. Because, if you get very much more 
 than your own figures show, it follows that the Syndicate, 
 the owners of the railway, the owners of the choicest lands, 
 and possessing those energies and powers for 
 which the Minister of Hallways has given them 
 BO much credit, will got very much more pro- 
 portionatelj', than you; and, Ihereforo, if you double the 
 figui-es for what you will receive, you may more than 
 double them lor the Syndicate's returns, and show that, in 
 ten years, thoy v/ill not nierelj' have built iho I'ailway 
 without extra outlay, but have more than doubled their 
 receipts from the lands. I>o you leil me that I value the 
 Syndicate's gains too high ? It is not my estimate, it is 
 3'our8. Do you tell me your estimates are erro- 
 neous, are too liigh for their lands ? How 
 much less, then, may we expect for your lands. 
 If they mast expect loss for thcii's, you must cxjiect less 
 iFor yours — less than the jialtry sum which 
 have estimate<l, and so much the worse for 
 counti-y which will receive little relief from 
 •ale of its lands — not oven a fraction of the interest 
 on the capital expenditure to which 1 liavo referred. 
 By the oUl plan, if we built the railway we had it. By the 
 new, we are to pay lor it handsomely, with a very large 
 bonus to the builders, and then they are to own it. The 
 heaviest sections are to be built by us. Hon. gentlemen 
 opposite talk of finality. Do wo know absolutelj' whutour 
 obligations are ? They say that one of the great advan- 
 tages of this business is, that if tho exjHinditure by tlie 
 country is large, at any rate we know the limit. Well, 
 what was tho indeterminate character of the business 
 before ? It was that wo did not know how much it would 
 cost us to construct the railway. Hut we are now going to 
 eonstruot a large portion of the railway. We are not 
 limiting ourselves to those very expensive portions under 
 
 you 
 tho 
 the 
 
 contract, but are undertaking a now piece, and, for ten 
 years to come, wo shall bo still building on the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway, and tho indeterminate character of the 
 transaction in this particular will remain ; and, unless wo 
 are fortunate enough to possess during all that time a 
 Minister of Railways able to bring down annually decreas- 
 ing estimates of tho cost of tho work to bo 
 performed, we shall exporieneo no little anxiety 
 in regard to tho public obligations and prospects. 
 It is obvious, from the estimates of tho Minister 
 of Railways, that the situation under him is not quite 
 so alarming, but still it is tolerably alarming, with regard 
 to tho want of finality. If I wore, however, a supporter of his 
 Government I would venture to suggest the o.Korciso of that 
 admirable diminishing faculty of his to relievo tho question 
 from these serious considerations. It could not bo a subject 
 of uneasinesss to us that our obligations were indeterminate 
 when all that wo had to do was, on coming to Parliament, 
 to learn how much less tho railway was going to cost this 
 year than the estimate of tho year before. However groat 
 the cost of the British Columbia section, we have to build 
 it, from Kamloops to Port Moody ; and as to tho finality, 
 otherwise, what is tho extent of it? There has boon a 
 gro it deal said as to the financial capacity of the capitalists 
 who are to build this road. The hon. Minister of Railways 
 himself iiUudod to it in vigorous terms, the other day, 
 pointing out that it atlbrded a perfect security to tho 
 country. From what I observe, then, I conclude that these 
 gentlemen, having some money to risk, are quit© 
 determined that if thoi'o is to bo any question of finality in this 
 business, it should bo settled on their side. In tho terms 
 of this contract is a special provision that it shall not go 
 into operation unless there is an Act of incorporation, and 
 that the contract is to belong to tho corpoi-ation, and that 
 tho individual contractors are not to be liable. ^Ve have 
 got the seal as our security, with the deposit. Well, the 
 hon. gentleman declared, with his happy faculty of making 
 the best of all unhappy circumst: nces, that, upon the whole, 
 he thought it would be a very much better thing that there 
 should be no security at all ; whereon, I suggest that it 
 might be a good thing to alliw the Syndicate to amend 
 their bargain, by striking out that deloteiious provision as 
 to the security of tho $1,000,000. If it is bad to have 
 any security,why should the Government prove such traitora 
 to tho country, as to insert the security clause? But, if it 
 is good to i-equire that security, let us i-einembor 
 that it is all we have. \ye have not even 
 the individual security of those gentlemen. We 
 have not the personal lO'^ponsibility of these gentle- 
 men, — wo have nothing at all ex(!ept iho million. Well, 
 now, if security is wanted, that security is inndcijuate ; 
 security will only be wanted on such an enterprise as this, 
 if all the calculations of the Government, all these ti^jui-os 
 of theirs which I have now lieon developing, tui'ii out 
 wholly fallacious; if tliis enterpi'ise becomes entirely 
 disasti'ous — if there is an utter collapse of some Iciiid or 
 other; and if there is, it is not a million, .Sir, that will i4op that 
 gap. I'lxti-aordinary, Mr. Chairman, .'is the whole ]irice is, 
 its ilistiibution between the sections is still more lemark- 
 able. The jji'airie region, nine liundred miles, is the 
 eastern ]iart of the centi'al section. One thousand miles of 
 that region was, last year, estimated at $13,000 a mile, 
 which would be, for the 900 miles ihat I am now considering, 
 and which h.ive been defined by the contract, 811,700.000. 
 But that would bo an over-estimntoof the costof 901 miles, 
 because tho western 100 miles whir'li has boon hipjiod off 
 from the 1,0(10 miles and assigned Ui the western n;yl of the 
 central section, is confessedly much heavier. 1; liclongs 
 to tho mountain region, and, I suppose, that is oiu' oC tho 
 reasons why that dilforcnt disposition and division 
 was made. Well, of course, if you take an 
 extremely heary 100 miles from the 1,000 which 
 
12 
 
 averaged only $13,000 a mile, you get a lower 
 average for the remaining 900, and I assume that we may 
 takoott' $1,000 a milo lor the 900 miles and add that 
 amoun*,or $900,000, to llie 100 miles as the extra cost of the 
 100. That reduces the 'osl for the 900 miles to $10,800,000 
 in all, or $12,000 a mile. Wellj^tho cash to be paid for the 
 constriK'lion of the central section, which, as I have 
 shown you, uccoi'ding to last year's exaggerated estimates, 
 ■was to be $10,800,000, is $9,000,000, leaving a sum 
 to bo provided olhcrwii-o than by the country of only 
 $1,800,000 to constiuct that lino for 900 miles. Well, to 
 meet that dreadful deficit upon this section of 90J miles, 
 what is the ])rudent compensation which an economical 
 Government, regarilful of the interests of the country, has 
 provided ? Sir, it is 11,250,000 ucros of choice lands worth, 
 at $4.04 per acre, 845,450,000 ; at $3.18, $a6,775,000, and at 
 your miseralilo $2, $22,500,000. The excess over cost is 
 $43,P50,000, oi- §33,975,000, or $20,700,000, according as 
 
 {^ou take your choice ol the estimates of tho value of the 
 and. Take the last and j'ou get an excess of over 
 $20,t00,000 piofit on the construction of the central 900 
 miles alone. The juice tlion assigned for this section 
 alone is fcnir or five times tho cost of constructing the 
 section. The mileage cost, as I have stated, is $12,000, 
 tho cash leceipt §10,000, leaving a deficit ol $2,000 
 a mile; tlie lands $50,000 i\ mile at the $4, making 
 n suijdus of $48,000 a mile at that rate, a surplus of 
 $37,750 at the ?:'..! S, and a surplus of $2:',0!I0 a mile at the 
 $2 valuation. So that lor this section which can be built out 
 of the land itself, which is running through tho land, which 
 is the easiest to build, which is the most sure to pay — which 
 is so sure to pay that you propose to throw upon tho back of 
 that middle section, the heavy bui'don of the two ends of 
 the linc^ — foi' this section you are giving at the very lowest 
 calculation, a profit at the rate of $23,000 per mile to the 
 S5'ndicato lor its construction, that is at last year's estimate. 
 If you fake this jear's and apply it to that section, you find 
 the $9,7S0j ()(), the deficit $180,000 only, and 
 tho surpluses increased to 844,850,000, or $30,550,000, or 
 $23,5'-'0,000, according as you value tho lands. You find tho 
 mileage cost .310,700, leaving a deficitof only $700 per milo. 
 You find tho surplus ?49,:;00, or $39,100, or $24,.jOO por 
 mile, as you take tho estimates of tho value of the lands. 
 ]Jfow, lot us get tlio estininto of tho next section from 
 Jaspei- llouse to KamlooiDs, •!50 miles. The 100 miles which 
 has been taken oil' from the central 1,000, I take, of 
 course, at $13,000 per mile, the average of the whole of that 
 section, iind add to it the 8900,000 which 1 took oft' the 900 
 miles, making lor that 100 miles $2,200,000. The residue, 
 according to the estimate of last year,would cost $15,500,000 
 to Kamloops. Add half a million, being one half of the 
 extra million assigned to British Columbia, and you 
 tind a total of $18,200,000 as the cost of that 
 450 miles. Tlio cash to lie provided is six millions of dollars ; 
 the deficiency to ho met out of lands on this section, with refer- 
 ence to this diflicidt piece of work is twelve millions of dollars. 
 The lands amount to seven and a half millions of acres. At 
 the first I'atc they would produce $30,300,000. At tho 
 second $23,850,000, at the third $15,000,000, leaving a 
 surplus at the first rate of $18,100,000, at tho second 
 rate $il,(i50,000, or at the lowest valuation of the lands, 
 $3,000,000, The mileage cost is $40,444; tho cash receipts 
 per mile $13,333, If you add tho land"at the highest rate, 
 it gives a Burj)lus of over $40,000 per milo ; 
 at tho second lato, a surplus of $26,000 per mile, and, 
 valuing the land at only $2 per acre, a surplus of $6,222 por 
 mile. Tiio cost to be provided for over the amou' ' of the 
 Hubsidj- for each mileof'this road is $27,111. But if you take 
 the new estimate, of course the cost is reduced from 
 $18,000,000 to $1(5,200,000. The deficit, therefore, 
 over the cash subsidy is $10,200,000, and tho 
 flurplus would be $22,500,000, or $16,000,000, or 
 
 $4,500,000, according as you value the lands at either of tho 
 three sums which I have rated them at. The mileage cost 
 would be $35,600, leaving an excess of $50,000 a mile, or 
 $30,800 a mile, or $11,000 a mile, according as you value 
 the lands, and tho cost to be provided out of the lands 
 would be $22,300. So you see here there is a margin, 
 though by no means so handsome as the margin that is to 
 be derived from tho construction of the central section The 
 eastern link is 650 miles in length, the cost of building 
 which is estimated at $21,666,000. The cash subsidy is 
 $10,000,000, leaving a deficit on the cash subsidy of 
 $11,666,000. The lands would produce $2.5,i50,000 at the 
 highest rate, giving an excess, after p'a3'ing the 
 wliole cost, of $13,584,000 ; at the middle rate, 
 $19,875,000 or $8,210,000 of excess, and at tho lowest 
 rate $2 por acre, $12,500,000 or $833,0.j0 of an excess. 
 The mileage cost is $33,333 ; the cash receipt per mile 
 $1.'),384; adding the hmd at tho highest rate it gives a 
 surplus of S20,.-<95; at the middle rate, $12,626 ; and at the 
 lower rate, $1,267 per milo Tho sum to bo pro- 
 vided out of the lands, is $17,949. According to tho now 
 and reduced ostinuvto the cost is cut down to $19,300,000, 
 making tho deficit on tho the c:ish subsidy only 
 $9,300,000, increasing tho surplus, as you e.timatc tho 
 valuoof tho hinds, to $i5,900,000,or $10,500,000, oi$3,20i',000. 
 Tho mileage cost i- $27,667 ; lo;iving a sui'jilu- por mile of 
 $24,500, or $16,000, or $l,65o ; and the cost to be 
 pi'ovided out ol' tlu! hmd i~ $14,300. So thai you see 
 that if tho liake Superior line were to bo abandonwl the 
 t'ompany would got an enormous share of what was attri- 
 hutablo to thit) contract on the whole, and would be 
 able to make millionaires of themselves long bofore the 
 period of abandonment had taken place. Now, the hon. 
 gentleman saj-s that he wants the praiiie portion built fast, and 
 because he wants it built last, and because it is inconvenient 
 to tho members of tho Syndicate to provide tho funds, ho 
 undertakes thai the public shall provide them, and, because 
 he wants tho prairie section built fiuster, he takes the cash that 
 ought to belong 'o the other sections, and should have boon 
 reserved for the securing of their construction, 'so as to miike 
 it easier for them ti^ do this work, lib says " what thou 
 doesl do quickly." Now, Sir, the general result is, that on 
 tho old estimates there is but $2,000 a milo deficiency over 
 the cash subsidy on tho praiiie section ; on the western, 
 there is $27,000 u mile, and on the eastern end there is 
 $18,000 a milo. According to tho now estimates, there 
 is $700 deficiency ordy on the cash subsidy on tho praiiie 
 sections, $22,300 on the western, and $14,300 on the eastern. 
 Can that be explained, can it be defended, even admitting that 
 the intention is, in a businoss-likc manner, to secure the 
 construction of tho road from end to end, that means should 
 •'0 ' ' ,on in cash which aro properly belonging to tho ends 
 ... the road, to be used and absorbed in the construction of 
 the prairie section ? By this, as each 20 miles of line is 
 bull' on the prairie, an immense block of land will be 
 handed over absolutely to the Syndicate, which is wanted 
 to secure tho end of tho line. Well, the hon. gentleman says 
 that they have got a grand security for its construction. 
 He will compel them out of the profits of tho prairie line, 
 because ihoj' will not deny that the prairie lino is going to 
 bo by itself an enormou.sly profitable one, 
 to build this section of tho road. We are 
 told that that is to he built within three years. Of course, 
 they will build it fast, because there aro fortunes in building 
 it fast. Every 20 miles they build gives them an 
 immediate fortune, and, of couiso, they will build it with 
 great rapidity upon such liberal terms. Thoy may well afford, 
 for the cliance of obtaining the many millions thoy will se- 
 cure in four years from tho central section, to deposit one mil- 
 lion which is expected to be the securityfor the construction of 
 the rest. It is paying one million to get twenty millions or 
 far more. Now, the hon. gentleman seemed^to be very 
 
13 
 
 f 
 
 much 'alarmed about the operating of this runway. I did 
 not observe that there was, last year, any tremor in hin 
 voice or any signs of dismay. Upon that subject last 
 year, the Minister stated thut he believed that the road 
 would forthwith, alter payment of running expenses, pay a 
 considerable return of intoiost on the money expended on its 
 construction. F was really a little surpri.sod that the hon. 
 gentleman should have bucomo so much less hopeful, 
 seeing that everything else was so very bright and sming. 
 The estimates are i-L'lucod, the country is in a more pros- 
 perous state, the prospects are very much 
 brighter, and ovorythiny has become in a better state, 
 and I was rather .suiprised to find that he was somewhat dis- 
 mayed, now as to the operation of the road, instead of 
 behoving that it would paj' a cor.siderable sum 
 foi' interest on the ca])ital oxpendcd. Bul uie other day ho 
 says that he had got the security of five millions of 
 dollars of bonds oi- acres of lands. Now i ' icre is an easy way 
 of arraniring iiliout giving security, and I ihinkthat the hon. 
 gentlem.-m has ilovised a patent plan by which his 
 objection to securities may bo whoUj' obviated. I 
 think ho should consider whether it would not bo 
 well for him to bring it into execution. For example, sui> 
 posing a contractor is to pay a million and ho wants fifty 
 thousand for security, he should say, at-' in old times, " take 
 thy book and write lour score," put it down as $1,050,(100 
 instead of a million and let us have the 850,000 security. 
 That would bo rather an improvement upon the present 
 plan, for in this case the hon. gentleman soeras to give 
 some ten or fifteen millions in order to got the soeui-ity of 
 five millions. T recommend him, as an improvement in his 
 
 Solicy, not to give so much more than the security he 
 emands. It is an casj- thing to obviate the difficult}' by 
 increasing the amount of the contract without going beyond 
 the amount of the security you exact. The provisions as 
 to the guarantee of interest, the pi'ovisions as to the land 
 grant bonds, are rather complicated, aiul 1 do not profess to 
 have wholly mastered them. I should like some expla- 
 nation.s as to lliom, and the explaiuUions of the gentlemen 
 to whom I referred would be useful. They require careful 
 consideration in oi-der that wo may understand Nvhat 
 thoy require. So far as the interests of the country 
 are concerned, those [inanciid ])i'oj)ositions require carefid 
 scrutiny. As to the provision as to the Government bei'ig 
 bound to I'eceivc ajjon deposit these indefinite sums, I nay 
 say this, the hon. gentleman has stated that the Finn 'ice 
 Minister can u.se them. Well, but the Finance Minister 
 •may not alwaj's be able to use them. It may be that :heso 
 sums may be i-eceivcd for a time which is not detern.ined ; 
 it may be that ho may not know how soon he may have to 
 pay them out; it maj' be when he goes to his bankers 
 and tells them that he wiints to swell his balance f)y twenty 
 or twont^'-five millions, that the bankers may be extremely 
 indisposed to give any rato of interest on thia deposit at 
 all. Such things have hap])oned before, and I believe that 
 a much more proper and ]»ru(leiit ]irovision would have 
 been this : to provide that the money should bo placed in 
 the banks, or otherwise, under the control of the Govern- 
 ment, and in its name, the Company being allowed to make 
 such arrangements as they can with the bankers for 
 interest, provided that the Government may take such 
 sums as from time to time they find they can use, at the 
 four percent, interest. Such a plan would give the Govern- 
 ment the powei- to take upon deposit at four per cent, 
 what the public needs may require, w'.iilst the Company 
 would be entitled to make such ai-rnngements with the 
 bankers for such sums as the Government did not take. 
 But the absolute obligation on the part of the Govern- 
 ment to pay interest at the rate of ibur per cent, on the 
 twonty-five millions, is, I think, objec'/ionable. Then, as to the 
 practical operation of the proposed plan, that 
 subsidy shall be placed in the ^shape^ of 
 
 the 
 
 coupons or interest on Company's bonds. 1 fdo not 
 kno '.' the rato of interest at which the bonds will be 
 issued, or upon what terms, but I have assumed they 
 would be f( ir per cent, at 20 j'ears, or five per cent, at 
 20years ; and that in either case the Government would allow 
 i\itorest of four or at the rate of five per cent. 1 need 
 hardly say that it would be necessary, in computing the 
 inlorest tlie Government should give in the way of coupons 
 on the interest of tlio bonds, to assume that a very largo 
 sum of the total would not bo payable as part of the subsidy 
 for many years. Therefore, it seems to mo that 
 the Government sho.dd not bo bound to ;.ay 
 interest from an earlier date, and it seems 
 to me that the uncertainty which exists, the impossibility 
 of telliMg beforehand at what time the cash suosid}' will 
 become payable in its different proportions, renders it 
 imposs.'Me with justice and certainly to ascertain ;ind 
 determine how much should bo given in the way of 
 coupons. We do not know when wo sluill have to pa}', 
 it dope. (Is upon the progress of the work, '.and, 
 therefori', it seems to me impossible to ascertain a! what 
 time the money should bo deemed to bo duo 
 in calc. dating the amount of the coupons. Rut 
 supposing $2,5,000,000 is to be rogaidod as presently 
 payable, * lie results would bo these : — At four per cent, bonds 
 for twoni y years, the Government allowing four per cont. 
 on the di Ibrred payments, there W(iuld be a semiannual 
 payment by the Govurninont of $9 1. J, 823, wliich would 
 represeni interest at four per cent, on a bonded capital of 
 $45,(i94,'><53, .say 4f> millions and a half. The Company thus 
 get int ) their handu 45^ millions in bonds at four ])or 
 cent, for 20 years, the interest at four per cent, being the 
 Dominion's bond to puy that intoiest, and not a g;iarautee, so 
 that t'le public wiio are takers of these bonds woiiM know 
 there was no obligation on the Company whatever to 
 discliarg(! the interest, and that all the Comjiany would have 
 to ('isebai'ge would be 451 millions of capital at the end of 
 20 years. Under these circumstances they are likely to float 
 t'le bonds, in the pre-^ent condition of the money market, at 
 .omcthing near par. At five jjer cent, the result would bo 
 that the semi-annual j)a3-ment of intercut by the Govern- 
 ment would bo 89:'5,;i0(i, and the capital sum of the bond-, 
 say 40 million dollars. Then you have a ca|iitalor40 
 millions which could surely be floated at or over ]iar. Now 
 the foui- per cent. ar;-angement would give for the eastern 
 link, of bonds which are the re))resontative of the cash 
 subsidy, $18,280,000; for the western end, $10,:)()S,000, 
 for the central or prairie, 900 milos, no loss than 81'!,4.)'i,()00. 
 This is confessedly an outrageous arrangement, for the 
 contract provides that, in this event, $2,000 a mile is 
 to be lo|)ped off the 800 miles of pi'uirie sectioii 
 and put on to the western enii of the central section. 
 1 want to know why that $2,0t)0 a mile is nut kept at the 
 end to which it belongs. If it is right in the one case, it 
 is right in all oa.ses, and the provision that at least $2,000 
 a mile should bo taken from the prairie section and added to 
 the end, in this event, shows that, in the 
 mind of the Government themselves,, they knew they 
 were wrong when they made this arrangement. 'I hese are 
 tolerably extensive and valuable privileges which are about 
 to be given to tho Company, as the means of constructing a 
 i-ailway, which that Company is afterwards to own, But 
 these aro not the chief privileges. There is in this Bill oni* 
 of the most extraordinary provisions. I dare sa}' there may 
 bo found a precedent in some Act of a State Legislature, but 
 I do not know of any. It is a grant of all powers, nt)t merely 
 necessary, but all powei-s which may In . useful, in order to do 
 all the various things they are authorized to do by tho 
 charter, and I do not know of anything they aro not author- 
 ized to do. This generality of words is not to bo tlorogatod 
 by from any particular franchises which are conceded, but it 
 is to be as wide as can be. I suppose it is copied from tho 
 
u 
 
 1 
 
 Constiliilioiiiil Act, which, Iiosidcs glvitig cimnuM'ivted powers, 
 
 fives a gonoi'ul power, witlithe prouisodoeiariition to what I 
 live referred. They hnve fi-ecdom to i*jeet huid they doom 
 not fiiirl}- fit for Hettieinent, Jiiid to ehoose the host land 
 elnewlioro. Thoy have perpetual exemption from taxation 
 of their enormous property, a most monstrous provision in 
 my ojiiiiion. Why! this monstrosity is not to last merely 
 twenty years, which is to be the period of bondage in other 
 respeels, but it iw to last for over. No matter how wealthy 
 the Ct)rapany may bo, how onormounly lucralivo, tliiw insti- 
 tutioM is to be for all time to eomo free from uU taxation 
 in everyjdaeo in which this Dominion can free it from tax- 
 ation It is to bo free overywhoro from Dominion 
 taxation in all the territories both from Dominion 
 and from tori'itorial taxation, wherever the Dominion 
 can give it freedom, and that is through all the fertile 
 belt at any rate. It is to get its rails at cost. I 
 nni surprised at the hon. Minister. After glorifying himself 
 80 much upon that admirable purchase of steel rails, after 
 recounting over and over again how much he gained for the 
 counti-y in the purchase, he says it is true ho does 
 not give over to this Sj'ndicato what ho wants to lay 
 on his own track, liut the balance, ho says, I will hand 
 over to you at cost and at tour per cent, interest. 
 I forget reallj' how much ho made, although we have hoard 
 it often enough to impress itonour memoiy, but certainly it 
 was a very handsome present. But, Sir, why should not the 
 rails bo taken over at tho market value ? And why 
 should the country not got tho benefit of that value, 
 whatever it is. Then there is to bo freedom from duty on 
 impol•t^. Here is protection for you! I understand that 
 tho'c ii'torested in some of the languishing industries 
 of the Maritime Provinces and elsewhere have been looking 
 over siiico tho hon. gentleman announced the speedy 
 construction of the Canadian Pacific Railwaj', and 
 ho])itig for the day to come when they Hhould revive their 
 iniln>trics and open their workshops to produce those things 
 ve]uircd in theconstru(;tion of that road, and now we he:ir 
 tint the i^reat advocates of protection, the inaugurators and 
 pcrpetinitors ot the National Policy, have got ttiis message 
 for their unhap))y manufacturers: You shall not bo 
 prrmiltod to manufacture these things because you cannot 
 mnnuf;utin-e them so cheaply as the S^-ndicate can buy 
 tlirni eisowhoro, ami whoever el>e niaj' sutler, whoever else 
 may have to pay higher pric sthat j'ou may live, > ur gooil 
 trioiids (ho Syntiicaic may hare liberty tn buy i'l the cheap- 
 est marlcei and sell us afterwards in the dearest, and, that they 
 may do >o, we will give up the import dutioH on tho goods 
 tlicy want, 'i hen, Sii', there is freedom fi'om taxation for tho 
 Lands lor the long term of twenty years. And that term of 
 twenty years is from tho time thoj- acij^uirc tho lands, 
 ar.d, iheietore, it is longer than twenty years from now. 
 It is, jicihaps, on the avetvigi', twenty-five years— n.'iy, more 
 than that. I am not at all certain that it may not bo very 
 easy Ui ariange to make it longer, becoirie, bj' a convenient 
 arrangement by which they do not take out thejjatents until 
 they want to sell, they can keep Ihem free from 
 taxation until they choose to put them in the market, indefi- 
 nitely, indcterminatoly- until it suiti-- them todisposeof them. 
 Tho lion, gentleman says, perhaps, it does look awkward at 
 fii-st siglit ; but if the Government, who own the lands, wore 
 to Iniild the railway the lands would not have boon subject 
 to taxation, and why shou'tl they he when they are placed 
 in tho hands of tho Syndicate. Ft does not scorn to me that 
 bec'uso tho Government, in the interests of the countrj', 
 and for the public good, could construct tho lailwaj', tho 
 S^'ndieate, who ii.o getting the bargain to which I have 
 relcrred. should hive this privilege. AVhj' it is turning the 
 S^'ndicato into th'- Govftrnmcnt — putting them in their 
 places to a cons'dciablo •rient. But, Sir, I saj' there is a 
 fliff ■'■enco betwoei! a private interest and the public intereat. 
 Witn the Government in pos;:ession of those landsjdoyou sup- 
 
 pose thoy would delay a day in selling thorn because they are 
 exempt from taxation ? Do you suppose that the possession 
 of these lands, free from taxation would render them less 
 oornost or loss eager to sell ? Not so. Thoir interest would 
 be only^to sell, and to sell rapidly. But tho interest of the 
 Syndicate is to make as much money as thoy can, and 
 
 moro money is to be made by delaying than by sollinsf, 
 their interest will be to delay, and to have as littT* 
 expense as possible meantime. All thoir lands ar» 
 oy.nptod from taxation in the North- West Territories for a 
 generation to come. What a discouragement this is to the 
 settlors along the lino of railway, to tho.se who are settled 
 on the homesteads, and pro-omptionfi alternating with these 
 blocks of land which are to bo tho property of the Syndicate. 
 We know tho result of exemption from taxation We saw it 
 on asmailscalo in the city ofToronto not long ago. Our lawns 
 there were exempted from taxation because it was supposed 
 th^t it was a good thing, for thopublic, that there should be 
 these open spaces in tho city. Uappily the exemption has 
 now boon removed ; tho proprietors of these lawns have to 
 pay taxes upon them. The result is that they are putting 
 them in tho market. They said to themselves before, " We 
 have nice lawns; we enjoy them very much; thoy are 
 gradually increasing in value as other property in Toronto 
 becomes more valuable, and wo are paying no taxes. Other 
 persons who are operating in lands are paying heavy ta.KOs; 
 wo turn our land into lawns, wo need pay no taxes, and we 
 can a'ford to wait a long time, and make our profits free 
 from t.is'os." That is the effect on a small scale, upoa 
 a man's mind, of exemption from taxation. That on 
 a gigantic scale will ho the effect of exemption on the 
 Syndicate who can hold their lands fi-om year to year for 
 twenty j'oars, without any drawback in iho way of taxes. 
 And for that the progress of this country is to bo interfered 
 with. There can lie no iMoater obstacle to the pri)gro8» 
 of that country by the encouragement of other settlors thas 
 that large sjjaces of unoccupied lands should alternate with 
 settler's farms. We, who are familiar with tho early 
 settlement of this CDuntiy, all know tho effect upoa 
 farmers holding even smaller areas — farms of 100 or 209 
 .acres — by tho intervention of unoccupied spaces botwoea 
 such farms ; we know that the farmer's disadvantages are 
 trebled because there is not continuous settlement ; he lacks 
 the joint fencing, the ri)ad work and the neighbor's 
 assistance, and all those other things which increase 
 his capacity for making his land valuable and 
 productive. Now, add to the difficulty which exists in that 
 respect, w'nich tho laigoncss of that aiea will enhance, at an^ 
 rate, in a largo degieo, tho fact that thoio is no power 
 to impo o municipal taxatiim on 2,}, 000,000 acres of 
 the choicest lands, ll^jso nearest to tho railway, and yoti 
 place a bar to progress and render it impossible to get over 
 the ditficully ; you say thtit tho cost of i-oads and bridges, 
 school, and other municipal taxes will have to be imposed om 
 the settlei's, to enable the worthy Syndicate to hold their lands 
 until tho reduced labors of those settlers shall 
 have Hufficiotitly inoeasod tho unoccupied areas im 
 value to induce the millionaires, tho hoMers of the 
 lawns of tho Norlh-West, to turn them into money. 
 Why, Sir, it was only last year in the discussion of this 
 subject when we objected to the speculator holding land, 
 when we said to (ho hon. First Minister that settle- 
 ment w(mld be impeded by areas of land being 
 held by persons who weio not hound by conditions of settle- 
 ment, that he answered us by (his veiy argument. He said : 
 "They will bo compelled to sell and settle becau.so they will 
 be taxed into it. Municipal taxes will comjiel them todoit^ 
 and therefore your fears ai-o void." That was his answer te 
 our argument; but whei-e is that answer in the face of this 
 contract? As to the 2.5,000,01)0 of the choicest land next te 
 the railway, the only thing the hon. gentleman could bring 
 forwai'd to prove that groat injmy would not bo done by not 
 
15 
 
 »B»igiiing coiidilion.s of Mcttlomciit, ix removed in fuvor oftliia moiiOjjolloo wliitli mo refuMcd to all the rest of tho world ; 
 
 ■nfortunnto Syndicate. I sii}-, Sir, that if thoy arc bat tfioy have tlie ri^ht to build anywhere; thoy hnvo 
 
 going to establish an immigration agency it would the right to choose their route — there in no restriction on 
 
 probablj' bo to their interest to 8ee the free grants them as to the course their railways are to take. Thoy 
 
 ■ottled, and tliey could atford to hold over a very large area may go south with their main line. They may, instead of 
 
 of their territory until the lal)or and industry of the free making it the backbone of that country, instead of placing 
 
 grant settlers had made the roads and biidgesand improved it in tlio position approximately in which it is now placed, 
 
 their farms, and thus made their untaxed domain valuable, sweep down very much to the south ami ii\ln\ into their 
 
 1 know that there is anothei- element tliat is calculatctl to main lino tho whole of tho traffic, and thus prevent any 
 
 induce them to settle the land eaily ; I am aware that kind of competition almost, and greatly deteriorate from 
 
 there is a large element of profit to be derived from settle- tho advantage of tho railway as a groat centiiil line inter- 
 
 ments by-railways. I know that, in the prairie country, we 
 are told (hat ten'miles on each si(lo of a railway will support 
 • railway. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I believe it to bo true, bUt 
 what makes it true ? Why it is the rates thoy charge. It 
 is because they are landlords of the area of twenty miles. 
 That is tho reason it is profitable, and unless you have jiiven 
 
 Bocting that co untry. It is true wo have a protection. We 
 have tlio protection of die consent of that Coiui'mI which 
 has signed this contract, but what kind of protection that is, 
 Sir, 1 will leave to you to say. But they may do something 
 more; thoy may run branches any where north, anywhere to 
 the south side of their lino. Yes, anywhere to the south 
 
 them power to exact those extortionate rates,they will not have or south-west, anywhere southerlj', anywhere westerly, 
 
 tho great interest to which 1 have referred, to get settlors yes, no prohibition for thtnn. They can go down, if tlioy 
 
 on their lands. Then there is, it seems to me, a practical please, if it is to their interest, down by the Turtle Mountain 
 
 privilege of abandonment, for I do not see anythiutr in this to Sault Ste. Mirio, or any way which will connect them 
 
 _ . . n I „f ..1 ^_._!i i^ ii „ n ■ i _.. :*i. *i,- C!.. "r)«,.i \t:.,. — . — i:,. «.,,i \J", „:*«i... L)..;i :i» 
 
 •ontract of reverter of the railway to the Government, or 
 reverter of tho lands to the Government, in case they fail 
 to complete tho ends, or either end after building the 
 middle. Again, they have great privileges as to telegraph 
 lines, as to eleviitors, and we know what extortion is 
 practiced by combined elevator companies, and 
 as to other matters. Again, they have tlie right to 
 build raihvajs just wherever thoy please. The hon. 
 
 fontlenian said: "What, do you complain of that? 
 (Thy, in the Uiiilod Stales any man can go and 
 build a railway wherever ho pleases." Tho hon. 
 gentleman has Lceonie iu the course of this discussion, 
 an trdeut admirer of United Slates legislation. I want to 
 remind him thai whatever tho virtue of that mode of 
 legislation may be — and il is not now under discussion — we 
 are not contrasling the situation of the Syndicate vvilli 
 reference to llie h^jipj inliabitaiiL-i of the United States 
 who enjoy lliose jjrivilcge.:; we are coiilrasling the p 'silion 
 of the Syndicate wiih rcfeience to Canada and Canadian.^, 
 and their road.s, and tlie legislative policy that e.xists with 
 reference to private per.--ons buiiuing railways in this 
 country. These aie what we have to compare, and ibe 
 comparison is not satisfactory, irret,pocti\o of the special 
 provisions of this contract, because it has not been 
 our way to give to any individual or number of 
 individuals the power of making and declaring thomselvos a 
 corporation and taking possession of lands and building 
 
 with the St. Paul, Minneapolis and -Vlanitoba Hallway, if 
 oidy thoy can get on gootl terms with that coi-poralion, 
 if only they can agree with themselves, for we ki!ow they 
 aro in fact and substance the St. Paul & Manitoba Kuihvay 
 Comjiany, and though they are perfectly free to go where 
 they like and make any arrangements they please with Amer- 
 ican lines, nobody else must. Oh, it would never do, after 
 you pay them a price and a half for building tho road and 
 give it to them and allow them totako whatever they ])lc;ise 
 foi' fares and- freights — it would never neverdo to allow any 
 ono else to build south or south-west. No ; they must Le pro- 
 tected in their vested rights, and there is a ])rohibition lor 
 twenty long years that no ono else can construct any line 
 which shall go south or suutli-wo^t of any line which shall 
 go within fifteen miles of that abominable boundaiy. 
 But they may go themselves; they oidy may touch it, 
 they can do no iiarm. They aie the countiy, tliey ai'O 
 the (.ioveruuient, anil, of cour.-e, they can do no >vron;;' ; 
 but all the lest of ua are j)ri-lubited solemnly, by tbo 
 Parliamentary contract, which binds our descendants as 
 well as ourselves; binds all those who may be induced t« 
 go into the Noi-lh-Wcsl ; declares that in the constitution 
 of any new jn-ovinces to be created out of that vast territory 
 there shall be inserted a constitutional provision divesling 
 tho inhabitants of thatcountry of the right t« build railways 
 wherever they may think advantageous to them, and leaving 
 them to the mercy of the Syndicate. They have tho 
 
 railways wherever thoy plotused. If the hon. gentleman is absolute right ; you cannot restrict them ; you cannot say 
 
 disposed to devise a general policy of that kind, let him bring others can build with the consent of Parliament, for tho 
 
 itdown and dispose orii pari passu with this measure; but if Syndicate have the absolute unconditional right to build in 
 
 he gives this railway power in such a maimer as to render it a way from which every body olso is absolutely excluded. 
 
 difficult to grant charters toother companies, do not lot him Now, there is iu this a practical monopoly of the trade of 
 
 tell us that ho is putting the S^'ndicaie on a level with his tho North- West Territoiy secured by law tor ai least twenty 
 
 fellow countrymen — with other Canadians — when he says 
 that they shall have what no other Canadians have power 
 to do, power to build railways wherovor they please. Sir, 
 it is a serious matter to say to all the rest of the world, you 
 must come to Parliament and run the risk of getting a bill 
 through, and getting it on whatever terms the Government 
 
 years, and it probably means in perpetuum to this corpora- 
 tion. There is no security for 'the accommodation — none for 
 the accommodation whatever. Those men are to have tho 
 absolute powers, but there is no security as to tho class of 
 accommodation they are to give to the public, and there is 
 no practical security for the rates. The hon. gentleman 
 
 may decide, while these people shall have tho right to buihl leferred to the clause in the General Railway Act, and ho 
 wherever they may choose. It tends to prevent people from gloritied himself in the fact that the Government had 
 coming to Parliament to got legislation. Thoy will say, been so careful of the interests of the country that thoy had 
 "What is tho use of us going down to Parliament. Tho actually imposed certain limitations upon this corporation 
 moment wo find a scheme for a road, make explorations which did not exist in the Railway Act. Thai Act says 
 and surveys and prepare our bill, the Syndicate, which is that 1.") per cent, profit shall be the minimum below which 
 rolling in wealth, will just fylo a plan in the Secretary's you shall not reduce the tolls; we have cut itdown, he says, 
 office and go on and build the railway;" and if to the modest figure often. Now I need hardly observo 
 they do take some steps to carry out their that this corporation stands in a somewhat different posi- 
 project, the Syndicate may step in and run their railway tion relatively to Parliament and to the country from the 
 m a way highly prejudicial to their interests. It would not great mass of railways in Canada. The groat mass of rail- 
 only give tho Syndicate privileges and advantages and ways in this countiy have been constructed out of resources 
 
16 
 
 mostly provided by private individuals. Considorablo sums 
 have, from time to time, boon given b^f way of aid or subHidy 
 by the Govcrnmont towards the construction of some lines, 
 but the main portion of the capital of those railway com- 
 panies is private capital. What restriction you may impose 
 upon private cnnital so long as you depend upon private 
 caj)ital to take tlie risk of constructing a railway is one 
 thing; what temptation you may deem it necessary to 
 offer to private ca|)ital in order to induce it to enter into 
 thot cliannel is one thing; but the same considerations are 
 not at all applicable to a case in which you say 
 to some individuals: Gentlemen, wo will give 
 you as much and half as much again as is necessary 
 to build this railway, and we will let you own it afterwards. 
 It is not the work of piivato capital at all. These men 
 will, for a little while, until they make some land sales, 
 invest four or five millions which will bo recouped to them 
 within a voi-y brief space of time, and then they will have 
 this entor])riso without having sunk a dollar of their own 
 money in it, and will have millions of acres besides. In such 
 persons, so situMtod, whoaro to run a railway which has been 
 built by the country for them, wo may fairly expect more 
 rigid, instead of less rigid, limitations as to rates and fares, 
 and a corporation, possessing such extensive privileges as 
 those, such ])riviloges for oxtonding lines all through 
 the N'orlh-West, and forestalling the construction of com- 
 peting linos, such statutory privileges for preventing other 
 peo|(le from building commercial lines which might inter- 
 fere with thom, on the express ground that their building 
 might interfere with them — on such a corporation, possessing 
 all these advantages, and with no disabilities, we may 
 oxjiect to impose more rigid limitations and regulations as 
 to what they will give to the public for the great deal the 
 public is giving to them. Well, Sir, what have wo given 
 them? The General^ Bailwayjj Act, in its' 17th section, 
 provides : 
 
 "9. No lolls shall be levied or taken, until approved of b^ the 
 Governor in Council, nor until after two weekly publications in the 
 f.'aiia III Giizitte, of the by-law establishing such tolls, and of the Order 
 in Council approving thereof; 
 
 "10. Every by-law, fixing and regulating tolls, shall be subject to 
 revision of thi' Governor in Council, from time to time, after approval 
 thereof, nnil after an Order in Council, reducing the tolls fixed and 
 regulated by any by-law, has been twice published in the CiniJu (/iizeite, 
 the tolls in such Orilir in Council shall be substituted for those 
 mentioned in the by-law, so long as the Order in Council remains 
 unrevoked. 
 
 ■'11. The Parliament of Canada may, from time to time, reduce the 
 tolls upon the railway, but not without consent of the company, or so as 
 to produce less than 16 per cent, per annum profit on the capital 
 actually expiiided in its construction; nor unless, on an examination, 
 made liy the hon. Minister of Public Works, of the amount received and 
 cxpeiiiled by the company. The net income from all sources for the year 
 then lust past, is found to have exceeded 15 per cent, upon the capital so 
 actually expended." 
 
 I am not aware of these powers of reducing tolls having 
 been u>e'd, either by the Governor in Council or by Parlia- 
 ment, and 1 believe the existence of such powers, in the case 
 of a corporation like this, to be wholly nugatory. I do 
 not believe these tolls ever would be reduced by the 
 Governor in Council if the Governor in Council was given 
 the unfettered power ot reducing them when once estab- 
 lished. He is, by the A»t, given the unfettered power of 
 reducing them when once established, but the Syndicate, 
 in this respect also, enjoys a limitation of the power of the 
 Governor in Council that no other railway company enjoys. 
 A private railway <'ompany, built with private capital, at 
 private risk, and sei iig the public at the risk of its own 
 capital, may technically, under this section, bo subject to 
 have its tolls reduced by the Governor in Council, at the 
 discretion of the Governor in Council. But the Sj'ndicate 
 has this special privilege, granted by tho 90th section of its 
 Act of incorporation : 
 
 I The limit to the reduction of tolls by the Parliament of Canada pro- 
 Tided for by the eleventh sub-section of the 17th section of the Conioli- 
 dattd Railway Act, 1879, respecting tolls, is hereby extended, bo tliAt 
 
 such reduction may oe to such an extent that such tolls wnen educed 
 shall not produce less than 10 per cent per annum profit on the capital 
 actually expended in the construction of the railway, instead of not leM 
 than 16 per cent per annum profit, as provided by the said sub-section; 
 and 80 also that such reduction shall not be made unless the net income 
 of the company, ascertained as described in said sub-section, shall hara 
 exceeded 10 per cent, per annum instead of 15 per cent, per annum, aa 
 provided by the said sub-aection. And tho cxcerciae liy the Governor in 
 Council of the power of reducing the tolls of the company, as provided hj 
 the tenth sub-section of said section seventeen is hereby limited to the 
 same extent with relation to the profit of the company, and to its net 
 reTeaue, as that to which the power *of Parliament toj reduce^ tolls ^ia 
 limited by said sub-section eleven. "S 
 
 Si)'that while tho Governor ln^,Coimcil] ha«, as applied|^to 
 other railways, an absolute jjower to reduce the tariff of tolla 
 at any time, the Governor in Council, as to this railway, 
 cannot reduce any tariff of tolls unless to a point at which 
 thoy will produce not less than ten per cent, per annum 
 profit on the capital actually oxpendetl in the construction 
 of the railway. A«d is it hecau.se it is not the Syndicate's 
 money — is it becau.se it is our money — on which the ten per 
 cent, is to bo paid, that they are to be secured, while private 
 capital is exjjosotl to a lower dividend ? Why is it that thoy 
 are not to 1)0 subject to the Order in Council to as full an 
 extent as all other railway comj)anies are subject ? Why is 
 it that the power of tho Governor in Council is limited to 
 this ten per cent. ? Now, lot us discuss this ten por cent, a 
 little. The hon. gentleman ventured the suggestion the 
 other day that this was on the (company's own jjrivate 
 capital, but he will not find that suggest ion borne out. I 
 shall he very much pleaaed if the hon. gentlonuvn is able to 
 obtain a declaration from the members of I ho Syndicate, 
 th.'it what is intofided is, that the}' are fo get not loss than 
 ten per cent, of tho money thoy themselves put into the 
 railway. That nothing that comes from the country — that 
 the Thunder Bay branch, for instance, is not included — that 
 tho railway in British Columi)ia or tho Pembina branch is 
 not included — that the ])ro('eeds from the sale of lands is not 
 included — that only that, which, after fiie i)ublic resources 
 are exhimsted, they take out of their own pockets, is to bear 
 this ten per cent. If the hon. genlleman will say so, he 
 will remove a large jiart of my objections to his contiact. 
 But he cannot say so ; it is not the agreement ; it is not the 
 contract; it is not the law. If this contract passes in this 
 shape, the capital, no matter from what source — though it 
 represen's the money we have put in, and the money we 
 aro going to put in anil ihe pnxseetls of tho land 
 we give — is tho capital spent on the whole of that 
 undertaking called, by the Act, tho Cansidian Pacific 
 llailway, which is entitled to bear ten per cent. 
 And if you say that I underestimate the cost of the road ; 
 if you tell me, so as to make otit that they have got a worse 
 bai'gain, that the road is going to cost them 8120,0(10,000, 
 then they can take ?12,0(iO,000 a year in tolls, and that 
 without expending, even for a brief space, more than 
 $5,000,000 of their own capital. '1 hey are first of 
 all to take enough of the profit out of the middle and 
 paying part to work that part, and then they are to take 
 profit enough to work tho British Columbia end and the 
 Luke Superior end, and after they have taken enough to pay 
 the working expenses of tho whole line, aflcr having taxed 
 the farmers of tho North- West with enough money to pay 
 the working expenses o*" the whole, they are then, after all, 
 to sot the profit at what rate they please to put it. Call the 
 cost of the road $90,000,000, that is i$9,000,000 direct profit. 
 Call it $120,000,000, that is $1 •-',000,000 a year before vou 
 can reduce tolls once established. It is contemplated thoy 
 shall get ten per cent, interest. You make a provision 
 that their rate of profit shall not be less than ten per 
 cent, in effect so far as you can make that provision. 
 Besides, you will fix these tolls, in tho first instance, with 
 reference to the larger running expenditure that will exist 
 and smaller returns that may at iSrst exist. The Syndicate 
 will reasonably say, fix a_ toll at a rate which will make 
 
17 
 
 tho railroad ])ay or liolp to pay undor cxiHfiiig conditions 
 You fix it, and onio fixed you ciui never alter it until tho 
 day arrives at wliieh the Company is f:fettin,i; $9,000,000, oi- 
 $12,000,000 a year profit, alter paying? all the expenses of 
 tho rornl. Nor in that all. The hon. j^entleinan has tulu'n 
 tho Union Paeifie as his standard, and there may he a eon- 
 Htruetion comi)any, there may he a Canada Criviit MohiJior, 
 thero may he arran/jfoments which would easily swell tho 
 nominal capital account to the 8151), 000,000, so that it maj- 
 appear that tho $150,000,000 had heen cxj)ended on tho 
 constniction of this railway, though it may have cost only 
 890,000,000 to construct it. Tlio hon. gentleman has hiin- 
 Belf shown us liow men are deceived. Ho, the man who is 
 chiefly responsible for tho making of this contract, 
 who Hultmittod it to Parliament, who inserted this 
 clause that tho Union Pacific should ho tho stand- 
 ai-d, actually did believe that tho Union Pacific did cost 
 tho $130,000,000 he mentioned. I have shown you it cost 
 nothing liko that sum, that the amount was a nominal one 
 made up by fraud, by all tho devices which can ho resorted 
 to in such cases. If tho hon. gentleman did not know that 
 the actual cost of tho Union Pacific, built as it was, as 1 have 
 said, was much loss than the nominal cost, how will his 
 friendly eyes ever open to tho conception that it ispoesiblo 
 a similar result may bo reached in tho case of tho Canada 
 Pacific Railwa}-. Wo have yet to take hold of another, the 
 lessons of experience. A few years havo pointed out tho 
 real dangers that exist in this connection. Within a few 
 years past the people of the neighboring Jtepublic, having 
 tho greatest development of railway enterprise in tho 
 world, having, I suppose, in round numbers, some 90,000 
 miles of railway running there, have had the opportunity of 
 knowing, and, by sad experience, do know, what tho diflficul- 
 ties and evils aro which are incidental to those great benefits 
 to humanity, railway corporations, and railway enterprises. 
 The peculiar circumstances favoring with us, tho growth of 
 the evilsof monopoly, render it still more necessary that we 
 should see what those evils aro which aro experienced else- 
 where, and devise some means of averting them instead of 
 blindly going on as if thero were no evils, or as, if there were 
 evils, that were not capable of being averted. Sir, these 
 people will become the landlords of the North-West. They 
 Avill take such a share of the profit of every farmer in tho 
 North- West as they choose to demand, consistently with 
 there b6ing any stimulus on tho part of that farmer to raiso 
 grain for the market. They are not entitled to ask. Sir, for 
 the privileges given to men who build railways at their 
 own risk. They do not occupy that position. You aro 
 giving them tho money to build up a monopoly of trade, and 
 giving them statutory security for that monoply, and 
 you aro bound to restrain them. Their exceptional position 
 obliges you, if even the general evds did not, to restrain 
 them. Talk to me of this thing standing. It will not 
 If you pass this law, and if tho country of which 
 
 stand. 
 
 you speak so glowingly is what you depict it, if its pros- 
 pects of settlement are such as you hope they aro, I say you 
 are blighting these prospects bypassing this law; and if 
 those prospects are measurably realized, notwithstanding 
 the passing of this law, I say the people of that 
 country would bo less than men if they suffered 
 such a law to exist. Talk of tho immigration of 
 Irishmen to the North-Wost. You are proposing 
 to them to substitute tho scorpion for the rod. 
 You are proposing to those who aro suffering undor tho 
 tyranny of individual landlords, to expose themselves to the 
 Bouiless tyranc jr of a gigantic corporation. You aro tolling 
 them that the ir chance of profit is to depend on what this 
 corporation thinks they ought to pay as tribute before they 
 can take their produce to market. I have referred to some 
 of the acts of railways that are in this position. I have 
 referred to what tho St. Paul and Manitoba Eailway 
 do. I do no: believe they are an exception, They all 
 8 
 
 .do it when they can. I believe it to be tho standanl of 
 morality of railway men throughout the United States that 
 they aro to take whatever tho tratlic will boar so long as 
 they do not take so much as will ))rovent the continuance of 
 tratlio. J bolicvo they take just us high rates as thoy can 
 get everywhere, and I will prove that by good evidence in a 
 few moments. I said the other, theciuotation for wheat 
 from Emerson to Toronto, was forty-five cents. The 
 rate at a fair paying rate would be 1\ cent per 
 hundred miles, or 17^ cents for the distanw, 1,300 
 miles. In point of fact, 1 bolicvo tho rates from 
 St. Paul down to be much lower than 1 J^ cent a 
 bushel, and consequently a much lui'ger proportion than 
 that wouM amount to, goes to the St. Paul and Manitoba 
 IJailway. But, assuming thero will be, according to that 
 calculation, a just compensation of 5jYoC. you have 27gc. per 
 bushel over a fair transport charge; and if you give 25 
 bushels to the acre, fov tho early years of tho fei-tile Rod 
 liiver Valley, it mer.ns, after paying a fair charge tor 
 transports, a tax of $C.82^c. an aero on the farmer 
 for ttvery acre ho puts into wheat. And the rate 
 quoted at the largest mill in Minneapolis, perhaps in tho 
 world, on tho 1-tth Doeembor last, a special rate, and it is 
 one of the clauses of their crceil to do business 
 largely in special rates — tho very best available 
 was from Emerson to Minneapolis 21c. per bushel. 
 Ample payment woulil bo 520 at tho average. Tho I'esult 
 is, the surplus charged 1580, fov that special rato. That 
 would be a rent of 84 on every acre in wheat after 
 payment of the fair charges for transport, and 
 that is the position of tho man at tho boundarv. In what 
 position will bo the man 200, 300 or 400 miles inside the 
 the boundary or further west '/ Of course tho railway men 
 cannot go on charging at this rate lor the greater distance, 
 because there is a limitation to their charges, which cannot 
 exceed what tho trafUc will boar. I3ut that is the only 
 limit. But how does this rato act on tho frontier ? For 
 a long time a groat deal of the furniture needed will be 
 imported — a point not more important to tho farmer than 
 the manufacturer. A car load of common furniture 
 is worth, on board, in Ontario, $700. The freight all 
 through, from any point in Ontario to Winnipeg, will be 
 about $280, or 40 per cent, on cost. Add merchant's profits 
 on that, 8280, or 25 per cent., and you have an additional 
 cost to the consumer of 50 per cent. That is rather an 
 alarming statement. In addition to this increase of 50 per 
 cent., to got tho funiituro into Winnipeg, how much will 
 he laid on it to carry it into the interior at those rates? 
 But dealing only with Winnipeg, if tho same rates, pro- 
 portionately, aro charged on furniture that aro paid by 
 agricultural implements, the settler would bo seriously 
 oppressed; the St. Paul and Manitoba Ilailway, having a 
 monopoly, is char/;ing on tho furniture, after payment of 
 fair rates for transport, a tax of 18^ per cent on value. 
 If that rato is not charged, I have no doubt it will be 
 found that one will bo charged amounting to 12J to 15 
 por c^it vii uie Vi»!'.'.'j of the furniture over a fair rato 
 of transport. No wonder j-ou want a very high duty to 
 keep out furniture made near tho border on tho Ameri- 
 can side. I havo hero quotations of the rates on the 
 general classes of freight, showing tho rates of freight 
 between Toronto anl Winnipeg. For first-class freight from 
 Toronto to Chicago, 515 miles, (50 cents; from Chicago 
 to St. Paul, 409 miles, 75 cents ; from St. Paul to St. 
 Vincent, tho monopolists lino, 390. miles, $1.50; from St. 
 Vincent to St. Bonifaco, 67 miles, 25 cents. Second-class 
 freight: from Toronto to Chicago, 50 cents; from Chicago 
 to St. Paul, 60 conts; from St. Paul to St. Vincent, $1.30 j 
 from St. Vincent to St. Boniface, 21 cents. Third-class: 
 for the first distance, 515 miles, 40 cents; for the second, 409 
 miles, 45 cents ; for the third, through tho happy region to St. 
 Vincent, 390 miles, 81.10, and the fourth, St, Vincent to St. 
 
18 
 
 Boniface, l'.> cents. Fourlli-ulass frei^'Iit : (irst dihtnnco, 30 
 contH per 100 lbs. ; second, Jl'i cents ; ttiir.l, IK) cents ; fourth, 
 14 cents. I dure say tlicso lii^iircs will ho fmind toh'ialdy 
 alarming, Tlicy show pi-otils very nuicli more than fair 
 compensation. Thoy are monopolisti' liijjuro.i, lirst conip^in- 
 sation and atlerwards a lax or duly as lai-;^o as 
 it is tiioiiglit the Iralllc will hear — a harden upon the 
 consumer and picnhicor of the most dreadful ciiaracter. I 
 said 1 woidd give some evidence as to llio general view of 
 railway men on this Huhjoct. It is tuit conlined to absolute 
 monopolists ;nliey are all more or Ic--- monopolists. Two of 
 the groat railway presidents, Vamlerhiit and Jewett, Htalod, 
 I think, in 187!', the rule ol the road to a comniilleo of the 
 Sew Yorlv Slate JiCgLslature investigating into Ihe tolls con- 
 nected with the raiiwa3s. The rule was: " Charging all an 
 article will bear, and at the Mime time stimulating its 
 ])roduction." You see 1 am not striking at the (St. Paul and 
 Manitoba Railway only. They all follow the same rule, 
 but some are in a position to charge more than others, all 
 animated by the same virtuous dosiro. The great mining 
 railways simplity things beauiifully. You go to the 
 manager of one and say: 1 want to .-iend some ore to such a 
 point, what is your freight a ton ? lie asks how much will 
 your ore assay ? You reply, what liavo you got to do with 
 that? lie says : I must know what your ore \vill assa)'. 
 If it will yield thirty dollars, then 1 will charge ton dollars. 
 To the same question, if you have got pro that will assay 
 8300, you will receive a similar answer, and a demand for 
 8100 for freight, or as much as the trallic will boar. Tho 
 report of the ivilroad company of tho New York State 
 A.ssembly, of 1879, says, after a year's enquiry: 
 
 '•Tlip wlient ratps fmm ("liioiiKo to Xow York wore raised from I;"ir. iti 
 August— a liviiij; rate— to 40e. in Novcinljer. It cost tlie road as niiieli to 
 liiinl the Bliill' ill August as in Noveuilier. Tlie rate was raisi-d dimply 
 liecause tlie cundiliou ol'llie market wanted it, and tlie product eonl'il 
 liear it. Tlie vmn;; consists in not only jierrorniinf; the proper I'unctiuna 
 i)t transportation, hut. taking' into consideration the jiroljalile or possilile 
 jjrotit of a shipment and adjii ;in^ their rates aecordintrly. If the shipper 
 is likely to make a larffe prolii. they coni])el-him to dividi'. If the margiii 
 is a close one, they determine whellier the sliiiJinent shall lie inadp or not, 
 ■whether it shall result in profit ur loss, and the amount of prolit or loss.'' 
 
 Now those are statements well worth pondering over. This 
 was a committee apjiointed to consitier tho subject with 
 reference to the State through which, you know, there passes 
 an enormous tide of truflic, and ])arlicularly an enormous 
 tide of that kind of trallic which for a long titne to come wo 
 e.\pect to export from our own North-West, that is grain. 
 Through tho Stale of New Y'ork- and to tho port of New 
 York, there come millions and millions of bushels e\ory year. 
 They, finding these evils existing, ajipointod a committee to 
 enquire and a close enquirj-, lasting about a year, was made, 
 and they found that to be tho principle wliich the railway 
 companies carried out as far as they wore able to do so in 
 the circumstances in which they are placed — if tho shipper 
 is likelj' to make a large profit thej' require him to divide. 
 Discussing tho \cry topic which is so very important to us 
 the}- say: — 
 
 •' The price of cereals is regulated liy the (Umund. Kuroiiean demand 
 regulates the demand at the seaboard, and this, in turn, regulates the 
 ipiaiitity to be luought forward. • • ♦ • The price of hreudstuffs is 
 
 f;overned by the Liverpool market ; the Western jnoducer can receive for 
 lis cereals the market price thus ti.\ed, less Ihe cost of placing his produce 
 upon that market; and the testimony of men who have been for vears 
 •"ngnged in this trade, who swear from actual knowledge, is that a reduc- 
 tion in the rate enures to the benefit of the producer west, and does not 
 Hfl'ect the price to the consumer, while an increase in the rates would pro 
 tanto decrease the price of the commodity to the producer." 
 
 There is practical evidence . of that of which they give 
 examples. There is another very interesting statement on 
 this subject by Judge Black, which is as follows : 
 
 " The reasonableness of the freight toll.i or taxes that may lie charged 
 iipon any railway will depend on the expenses of running and repairing 
 it and on the cost of construction. The latter will, of course, be the 
 Jirincipal element in the calenlatioUj for the tolls ought to be high enough 
 to give the corporation a fair protit on the cupital thoy liavu actually 
 
 nvested. Hut many of these corporations have issued larpe amounts of 
 Ktock anil mortgage bonds for which the holders have paid nothing, or 
 inui'h less than their nominiil value. Another way of enlarging their 
 appariMit ilimcnsions is to water their stock iimler the pretense of incrcaa- 
 ing llii'ir capital, while in fact thi' adilitional shares are divided among 
 theinselvi'H without iiiitling a new d<dlar into the business. (If course 
 nobiidy thinks that the real cost of the road is to be measured by the 
 nominal amount of thesQ bonds and shares. It is easy for n competent 
 engineer to tell how much any road ought to I'ost, supposing the work to 
 be honestly ilone and liberally Jiaid for. That being ascertained vou have 
 the true basis of a calculation which will show how much the tolls ought 
 to be. 
 
 " Most of our Western roads are built with the proceeds of public lands 
 granted mediately or immediately by the ITnlted States to tho several 
 comiianies which now have them in charge. They did not really cost the 
 stockholders anything, and in some cases they got lands worth a great 
 deal more than all expenses of making, stocking anil running the roada. 
 The two companies between timaha and San Krancisco raised in cash out 
 of (lovernment bonds, lands and mortgages of their franchises four or 
 live times as much as they necessarily expended upon the roads. The 
 stocklioldera, without paying anything, put the enormous surplus into 
 their pockets. These roaifs thus built at the public expense, and in some 
 cases paid for by tlie public five times over, are now claimed as the 
 private jiroperty of the comjianies, and the right of the public to use them 
 as highways is utterly denied; nevertheless, I think tlie claim of these 
 coi, panics to take reasonable tolls stands upon the same foundation as 
 that of comjianies whose roads were built by the stockholders thomselvea 
 at their own jiroper expense. The grant of the lands invested the 
 grantees with a title which oould not be revoked if the conditions of it 
 were performed. If they sold or mortgaged tho lands and invested the 
 ])rocceds in the construction of a railroad under a charter from a State or 
 general government which authorizes them to take a fair prolit in the 
 shaim of tolls, they have as good a right to the tolls as if the capital to 
 build the road had been raised by themselves— that is to say, those 
 com]ianies which built the railroads with capital donated by the public 
 have the same right as other companies to charge a reasonable toll, but 
 their demand of excessive tolls, though not worse in law, seems in the 
 eye of natural reason a greater outrage. 
 
 " If railroad corporations have the unlimited power which they claim, 
 then all business is at their mercy. Agriculture, commerce and manufac- 
 tures must suffer what they choose to inflict. They may ,ob labor of the 
 bread it wins and deprive all enterprise of its just reward. Though this 
 power does not belong to them legally, they have been permitted to usurp 
 It. and I need not tell you that they have grossly abused it. They avow 
 that they make their exactions wilfi an eye sinjjle to their own advantage, 
 without considering any right or interest of the public. They boldly 
 express their determination to charge as much as the trafTic will bear ; 
 that is to say, they will take from the profits of every man's business aa 
 much as can be taken without compelling him to quit it. In the aggregate 
 this amounts to the most enormous, oppressive and unjust tax that ever 
 was laid upin the industry of any people under the sun. The irregu- 
 larity with which this tax "is laid makes it still harder to bear. Men go 
 into a business which may thrive at present rates, and will find themselves 
 crushed by burdens unexpectedly thrown ujion them after they get 
 started. It is the habit of the railroad companies to change their rates of 
 transportation often and suddenly, and in particular to make the charges 
 ruinously high without any notice at all. The fanners of the great West 
 liavc made a large crop of grain which they may sell at fair prices if they 
 can have it carried to the Eastern ports, even at the unreasonably higli 
 freights of last summer. But just now it is said that the railway com- 
 panies have agreed among themselves to raise the freight 5 cents per cwt., 
 which is equal to an export tax upon the whole crop of probably 
 $ 7.''),000,000. The farmers must submit to this highway robbery, or else 
 keep the products of their land to rot on their hands. They submit, of 
 course, as all other classes of industrious people submit to similar 
 impositions. 
 
 " Common justice imperatively requires that freights be fixed, settled 
 and prescribed by law, and that they be not changed at the mere will of 
 the railroad companies. 
 
 No'w, Sir, it docs soom to mo that if it had not boon for tho 
 wonderful productiveness and expansion of the North-West, 
 tho people could not have borne the taxation which tho rail- 
 road companies liave been imposing upon them, and as year 
 by year the average fertility of the soil diminishes, as year 
 by year tho crop to the acre decreases, it will bo found a 
 bin-dcn which will compel a change by tho act of Congress 
 or some other power. It will bo found a burden whollj' 
 intolerable to bo borne very long ; — this control which tho.so 
 great railway companies have over that great country and 
 over the agricultural interests of tho groat North-West. 
 And while that state of things is existing in the neighboring • 
 Eepublic, while its peoiile aro groaning under the burden, 
 while they aro looking all around them for moans to redress 
 tho evil with reference to existing corporations possessing 
 vested rights, the Government of this country, blind to tho 
 lessons which the experience of the Eepublic teaches, pro- 
 poses to extend and inaugurate that evil in a ten-fold more 
 ntfffi'avated shape in this country. To what end is our 
 
I» 
 
 Hploiulid road to Thunclor Bay? To xvlinLoud did wo sink 
 niilliotiH inoio than nt'CoHsary to ])i-ofliu o tlio oxtiaoidiiiary 
 ^riwlcs and Hplcndid proviMioiis witli rospc^ct to rurvaturo 
 wluch cxiHt on that loiul ? Wliy, was it not to chcapim tlio 
 roMt to tho licad of navij^ation and ofiabU> uh to dcly coni- 
 ])otition, having a /jfood jMirl, and hoiti^ ho tin'UiuNtaiU'od 
 that wo fan tako down Iroi^dit a lilt let choapor, an wo 
 tan lioni Princo Ailhnr'rt Landinji; to Monti'oal by tho 
 LakoH. tlian they oan I'roni Uahith, and ho lioat ihcni? 
 Was it not to invito farmors fo tho North-Wont hy tho 
 Htiitouiont, '•tiontlonic. ' 2vo in a country in whioli 3-ou 
 havo not f(ot monopoliht iitcs lorfrcij?htchargcil, a country 
 in which tho Guvornmont itsolf, in order tliat you may liavo 
 your freight brought down clieap, has built, at an expcnso 
 entirely unnecosHury for other purponcH, a railway Huporior 
 ])orhaps to any other except tho Canada Southoi'n, and 
 capable ol'transporting your h ;ht at tlie lowest possible 
 rate?" Sir, the grades and provisions as to curvature of 
 that road are such, as you will learn from the report of tho 
 Chief EngincoV last Session, as to enable us to take within a 
 fraction of twice the paying load tho average grades and 
 curves would allow. It will, tlierefore, npi)roximately carry 
 freights at liulf rates. Approximate!}' the cost for trans- 
 
 1)oi'tation will bo one-half— I do not say actually one-half 
 lecause there arc other circumstances which may recjuii'o 
 to bo considered, but approximately it will tako freights 
 at viwy little moro than half of tho avorago rates. That is 
 tho means, that is tho induccmont you have to olfer to tho 
 people ofManitobaand the Xorth-Wost within a 3'caroi- two. 
 But, Sir, to whoso advantage are these splendid grades; to 
 whose advantage is this magniticent railway consiructed so 
 that it can be run and worked very cheaply, and enormous 
 I rains twice tho length of those on other roads can bo brought 
 down ? To whom is tho gain to enure, if tho practical result 
 is to bo that freight can indeed bo carried down at a less 
 actual cost, and that you havo only given a greatoi' margin 
 on tho division of tho profit on the crop to tho railway 
 company ? Then 1 must Bay it has been a very unprofitable 
 expeiidituro. Wo uro bound, in my opinion, by tho most 
 obvioUs duty to our country, to kco that tho singular 
 advantages which the Thunder Bay road gives, of taking 
 down the wheat of tho Norih-Wcst to tho seaboard, and 
 taking up tho manufactures of the East to tho North- West 
 at modorato I'atos, shall be used not to give still l;irger 
 ])i-ortts to a railway companj', but to secure cheap transport 
 to tho public, whoso money has paid for that roati, and who 
 will have, for generations, to bear the burden of the interest 
 duo to it. Now there are various remedies. Competition 
 is, of course, an imperfect remedy, because tho com- 
 potitoi's may combine, but it is bettor than nothing. 
 Look what it does between Chicago and New York ! 
 'iOok what it does between Chicago and Montreal ! Con- 
 trast llio;so distances and tho rates on those lines with tho 
 rates where llieio is no competition, as in tho case I have 
 given you of tho St. Paul and Maiutoba Eailway. And 
 remombor that often, though there maybe a difiicully in 
 keeping up a competition, and though you cannot ensure 
 that tho comi)0titors will not combine, yet the possibility of 
 competition, and tho knowledge that oxtijrtionato i-ates 
 may lead to tho building of other roads, is a check 
 upon these corporations. But you prevent anybody, 
 who is not in llie interest of the Syndicate, from building at 
 all in a way which will produce competition. You not merely 
 do not secure biii you prevent designedly the possibility 
 of competition, and the lion. Minister seems rather to con- 
 gi'atulate himself that ho has secured a consolidation of 
 lidcrests with the St. Paul and Manitoba Eailway Company, 
 so that this vovy line of railway to Tliunder Bay which the 
 ]ieopIe of the North- West were looking for, and lioping l()r, 
 and jjraj-ing lor is dosed to them as a meam of relief, antl 
 tho Syndicate is to control every gate-way to tho North- 
 West, A public coramission would givo sonic chaijco of 
 
 I'clicf, though one of those groat railway nuignatos in Now 
 Yoi'k has di'dared it as ids belief that such a comnuHsion 
 always must havo one of two results; either tho comnds- 
 sioners must own tho railway ov tho railway must own 
 the conindssioners. Still something ndght l>o done in 
 that way, A jtrovision that tlu^ rales should be fixed 
 with a due relation to tho actual eo>t of transpoil 
 and to Minio reasonable ]irolil — soine largo jirotit if you 
 hke — on such individual cajtital as might prove to huve 
 been sutdv in the umlertaking would be a feasible remedy. 
 A provision which gives tho (iovernment tho mauhinory 
 lor oxaininalinn ami inquiry into what is the actual cost 
 of transportation, fron\ time to time into the actual indivi- 
 dual capital Hunic, which gave oven 2i) per cent profit 
 on that amended capital, would bo a great relief. 
 A re>,erviition of jiublie rights on tho road, a right to 
 give running powers to other corporations, would 
 bo a relief; a provision for tho reverter of tho lino to 
 the public ; a provision to give power, on tho part of tho 
 ])ublic, to roaciiuiro the lino on reasonable terms, such as 
 are contained in the present ilailway Act, would bo u 
 relief. A jirovision, at any rate, which would enable tho 
 l)rovinces which we hope to carve out of the North-West, 
 and through which the road is to run, to ro-acquiro tho 
 I'ailwa}', would be a relief. If they wore to bo allowed to 
 purchase the road at a valuation, and got rid by poaco 
 instead ol by war of the monopol}', it would bo a roliof. 
 And there are other methods such as tho fixing of charges 
 by reference to general averages, and by defining minimum 
 rates. J?ut none of all those things has boon 
 done, none of all these things has boon attempted; 
 We go on, in spite of the oft repeated lessons of experience, 
 to create to-ilay, in tho year IS80, what I venture to suy tho 
 men to whom the hon, gentleman has referred would not 
 dreani of creating in the Unitetl States. Sir, I object to 
 this schemo because I believe it to bo a scliemo not in tho 
 interests of tho courury, on other grounds. The hon. gen- 
 tleman was right to refer to my speocli of last year. I 
 continue to believe in an eastern connection. I beliovo, Sir, 
 in the eastern connection. I am of opinion that tho interests 
 of this country call for an eastern connection, but I am not 
 of opinion that tho interests of this country call for the 
 retardation of that connection. 1 am not of tho oi)iniou that 
 the interests of this country call for tho postponement of 
 that connection. I am not of the opinion that tho intorosts 
 of this. country call for enormous expenditure in order 
 to Hccuro that connection under existing circumstances. 
 1 beliovo. Sir, that tho lino by tho Sault Sto Mario, 
 in tho present condition of railway matters on both 
 bides of tho lino, affords tho practical solution of that 
 problem. A solution perfectly easy, perfectly plain, 
 and possessing obvious advantages of an enormous 
 character over the plans ol' tho Government. Tho Sault 
 line gives you, in tho first place, a connection in two years, 
 or at most in three. Do you want an all rail connoctioii 
 with the North- West? The line j-ou propose, oilers you that 
 connection in ton years; tho Sault Sto. Alario line offers you 
 one in three years at most. It gives you that connection 
 through a country capable oi'sotllement, while tho lino, so far 
 as Wo know, which is proposed to bo run by tho north shore, is • 
 through a desolate country, almost entirely incapable of 
 settlement. It, therefore, gives you a lino which, so far as 
 tho way tralBo Ihfough our own country is concornod, will 
 give tho power of reducing tho expenses, by giving a 
 |)rofitable trade, which will not exist with a north shore 
 iino, and, of course, if i;ho through traffic is to bear tho full 
 cost of operating the C(JO miles of railway, through trafiic 
 will have to pay a higher rate than it would if that cost 
 wero diminished by the results of tho operation of 
 the railway through tho settled country. I havo 
 not the slightest doubt that it can bo dono, Such ai'o 
 tho cojunjeroial advantages of tliat lino that it must bo dono, 
 
20 
 
 If _yuu ohiMmii to taku tlio huiii of iiimioy niul tlin i|ir!iii(ity<)f 
 Inml whicli you iiro f^oiii;; to >{iv<< for tlm I'onNtriiction of iho 
 Hixt5'-tlir('»' mill's from .Soiith-l'.awt Hay to tlm Stiir^'fon 
 River, aii<l nn\i\i i( an a Milisiily to a Com|iaiiy, lln'y will 
 Iniild llu' uliolo 21)0 iiiilcH, iii('iiiiliii;r llio (J3 miles; ami I 
 bavo no (louht tlial you can let tlie eoiilrael iiiVliii'ty dayH 
 from this (late. I iielieve tlial tlio Canada C'etilralCoiuiiaiiy 
 woidd not suH'er any oilier company to j^o in and tul«» tlio 
 roiul if tliese terms \ver(^ olVere(l; and 1 am (]uite certain 
 that otlier tom]ianies would otler to liuild it on llioso terms. 
 Wo know, indi'ed, that an oiler has heen made already — 
 
 Iwrtiajis the ]iriee is too lii^h ; hut 1 have no doidil whatever, 
 lUt that tom|pare<l with the North Shore iilan, it would he 
 infinitely more advanlap'ous. I helieve tluit that oH'er is 
 Home 1,(100 acres of land anil 8 1,000 jier mile for 200 nules, 
 Imiifi a liltle more than you are fioiu)^ to jiay for the sixty- 
 three nules. Ihit I helieve that is loo hi;;li an oiler, and 
 that a lower one could he ohtained without ditlicidty. Now, 
 Sir, why do I Hay that you eoidd ^et the road so cheap? 
 First, hecau.so this road, passin;,', as 1 have said, 
 lhn)ut;li a country almost tiitirely capalilo of settlement, 
 thoreforo prosonts prospects in itsolf of a good romun- 
 oraiivo local trntllc. Bui that in not the or.ly nor the 
 chief reason. Anj-body who looks ul tho maj), or who 
 knows what is doing on tho other side, must know that that 
 road is tho key of tho position; that tho future of Canada, 
 and particularly of Montreal, is bound up in our having tho 
 shortest lino l>y way of Suult Sto. Mario by which tho traffic 
 of the American North-Wost, as woll as of tho Canadian 
 North-Wost, shall go to tho ocean steamships. And then 
 you get a tlrst-class line because tlio great trutlic will maintain 
 it, bocauso tho great traffic will demand it, and you get all tho 
 accommodations and advantages and cheapnesses which 
 belong to a first-class lino and a great trafHc. Sir, that line will 
 give us the trade of about 400 miles in depth, as I estimate, 
 from our boundarj' all across the continent. It will give u.s, 
 at present, the trade to a point CO or 70 miles south of St. 
 Paul, and when shorter connections are made between that 
 region and tho South, for a still further distance. But 300 or 
 400 miles in depth by a continent in width are assured 
 to us by that road. It will give us a trade not in tho 
 future. We uro told to rejoice, because in ten years 
 wo will got a road through to tho North-Wost and 
 be able to do a trade with tho people who will 
 then bo settled there. I propose that you adopt 
 U scheme which in three yiars would give you a short 
 route to tho Norih-Wcst, and therefore give you for 
 seven years before your own scheme will do it and for all 
 time thereafter access by rail to tho North-Wnst, and 
 within three years and for all time thereatler the traffic 
 of over 1,200,000 Ainoricaus on tho south of the boundarj-. 
 It is estimated that the population of tho United Stales which 
 would be tributary to that route, and which would bo con- 
 stantly increasing, woukl be as follows : — Northern Michigan, 
 125.000; Northern Wisconsin, 225,000 ; part of Minnesota, 
 600,000; Dakota, 135,000; Montana, 39,000; Washington 
 territory, 65,000; Idaho, 30,000; or a total of 1,200,0U0 af- 
 present in these territories who would be tributary to oui- 
 line. You get the whole trade of the Northern Pacilic Pail- 
 way, that great corjioration, which lias just started on a new 
 lease of life, which has financed its enterjiriso and which is 
 diligently spreading its lines, not merely tu the west, but to tho 
 east, to reach the Sault. It is ^t Luluth now, and it is being 
 built for 114 miles towards tho Sault, from tho Northern 
 Pacific Junction, near Duluth. But by this line you get more ; 
 you got the shortest line from San I'Vancisco to Europe. If 
 you want to speculate on the future of tho North-West I 
 offer you a connection that enables you to speculate on that 
 and on the south-west as well, and which gives you to-day tho 
 groat west as a present boon, ft is doubtful if the best route 
 has been chosen. It is not impossible, but that a bettor 
 route may jet bo chosen between South-East Bay and tho 
 
 Sault, 1 go for tho shortost route, whether to tho north 
 or tho south of ^Nipissing. I proposed long ago that 
 tho loiid should go to tho south of Nipissing; if^lt were 
 proved that that were practicable in connection with tho 
 interests of tho railway. 1 thought th itcrosts of my 
 own I'rovinco made that fair and jus< but tho road 
 which was proposed at that time was one of a difl'orcnt 
 charactor — one wliidi was to go by tho Muttawa, and 
 it was isolated from the I'rovinco. I ask for tiio shortest 
 lino in tho interest of all. But I take, for tho purpose 
 of coinpiiring tho linos of communication, tin distances, 
 not by projected air lines, but by ascertained lines, 
 as far as jiossible. I dilfer a little from tho figures 
 of the hon. Minister, 1 boliovo he gave us 460 and 
 odd miles from Winniiieg to iJuluth. I suppose that 
 figure i^ cori'o(!l ; but it is wrong to tako tho distance tu 
 Duluth for the purpose of tho calculation. You go only to 
 the Northern Pacific Junction, which is 22 miles f^'om Duluth, 
 and you get a distance from Winnipeg not by direct lino from 
 Winniiieg, but by two sides of a right angled triangle of 
 442 milos. At Kmorson you strike tho St. Paul, Minnoapolis 
 and Manitoba totilyndon, tiience by a round about way wnich 
 could bo shortened by 100 milos without difficulty. 
 In fact a line has been surveyed which shows this. 
 The hon. gentleman gave the figure of 410 milos from tliat 
 point to tho Sault. I have found some difficulty in ascer- 
 taining those tigures on account of conflicting statements, 
 but 1 accept tho hon, gentleman's statement of figures. 
 From tho Sault to the South-Hast Bay I tako 200 milos, 
 which is more than has over l)oen taken before, and I 
 believe more than it will be found to be when it is 
 ultimatelj' a.scertained. I am told tho sum of tho chaining 
 on tho circuitous route is 201 miles, and I think 290 miles is 
 a fair estimate. While an air lino is only 2M 
 miles from SouthKast Buy to Montreal it is 3t)4 
 miles, or a total of 1,506 miles by tho circuitous route 
 from Winnipeg to Montreal. That route moy bo 
 shortened at least 100 miles whenever tho necessities of the 
 case require. Now, tho Canadian route, as I have made it 
 out, is, from Winnipeg to Thunder Bay, 428 milos; from 
 Thunder Bay to South East Bay, 663 milos; from South 
 East Bay to Montreal, 1,455 milos, or somewhat shorter 
 than the Sault route. Tho hon. gentleman makes it 
 still shorter. Ho makes it to bo 371 milos from 
 Winnipeg to Linkoping Station. Ho assumes tho 
 Syndicato will follow the lino from Linkoping, and 
 ho makes out his distance 34 miles shorter. Last 
 Session he told us ho was not certain thoy would not run 
 straight on to Thunder Bay. No information have wo had 
 since enables us to judge of his present suggestion, and 
 the infornialioi) wo had before was that the route was so 
 embarrassed by a lake, I think called Dog Lake, not far 
 from Thunder Bay, as to necessitate such a deflection 
 and such an early junction at Thunder Bay as 
 would make a comparatively trifling saving, if it wore 
 designed to join the lino further up. But oven taking 
 the iion. gentleman's figures of 1,421 milos, and compare them 
 with 1,5U6 milos, tho Sault lino is thus only oighty-fivo 
 miles longer. I make it only 51 milos longer; and I am 
 convinced it can be made 50 miles shorter. You may 
 call tho linos for practical purposes of the same length. 
 What more does this route give us? It gives us a groat 
 summer route through our own territory; it gives us u 
 route from Winnipeg to Thunder Bay of 428 miles, the 
 cheapest route we can haVo, from Thunder Bay to (Joulais 
 Bay 220 miles, and from Goulais Bay to Montreal 654 miles, 
 or 1,302 milos from Winnipeg to Montreal, taking the Lako 
 Superior stretch. Now, yon have got only tho north-west 
 winter trafflu by tho north shore line. The groat bulk of 
 tho summer traffic will go by water, either to tho Sault lino, 
 which, I boliovo, will be built, or down tho lakes and not by 
 that North Shoro routo. That road will be constructed as thg 
 
u 
 
 tlui dlHtaucu Auin Glyiiilun to Montroul l>y our lirid 
 with tlmt from Glyndon liv (Jhkajjo lo Nuw VorU, 
 you will find thiit tho latCor ^ivou n r<uvin^ tn 
 Alontroal of 29!t niiloH. If you Uiko Hostoii, rising 
 it) iidportunco an a ptrt, tho HliorloHt lino to BoHtoii 
 from CilyiidoH would bo down to Bro(kvillo, uiid iL 
 would bu ],(>U0 milof), or 293 miloH longer lliikii tlm 
 It proHontH, oxc'optinfj in Olio purticulnr, tho boBt dJBtanco to Montreal. If you tako tho truvcllod roud-, by 
 
 which tho trado would most likoly go, by wiiy of Ohicas^o, 
 it iH l,(!t»2 milos to Boston ; that id a saving in favur of 
 Montreal of 335 miloH. Then you muHt add tho 250 miloH 
 Kaviiijj in tho ocoan passatjo botwocn Now York and 
 Iii\oipool and Montreal and liivorpool, and you will got, 
 on tho wholo, in land and water, Home 500 or (iOO milo:^ 
 convenient whortor distance from (Jlyndon by tho I'ort oC Montreal than 
 by way of tho groat Atlantic portN in tho United Statof*. \. 
 believe that is u controlling advantage. I do not ai^Hort tliati 
 it would Boeuro all tho tratlic against tho gigantic (^tinpuli- 
 tion, tho determined competition, which would, no doubt, bo 
 exhibited in favor ol' tho oxibting roads j but I have no doubii 
 might poMsibly make tho froigl.t somewhat cheapor under whatever that the Northern Pacific would do.tiro, and iu 
 equal conditions if tho run wore longer. 1 boliovo would bo to thoir intcrosts so to do, to tako tho trallle rigliL 
 thoBO favorable conditions more than counter-balance along to the Sault Sle Marie, which would give thorn .^Ol» 
 any difficulty of that kind, and, at any rate, it or 400 milos more of tninsnortation over their own 
 
 Union Pacific wii^ cunstrurlcd orij;inally, and y»ju all know 
 now, I think, somothing of what that nitons. It will pasH 
 through a difficult country, roiulemd more difficult by tho cli- 
 matic conditions, without local trade, it will boHurroundod by 
 Croat difficulty of constriuaion and operation, and will not 
 DO Buccossful. The LaKo .Stipurior water route which you 
 acquire, as well us tho all rail roii'o by tho Sault, is of tho 
 lirst class 
 
 prospect of any water route ; you havo a <loop lake, no 
 canalling and good harbors. Tlio largostVizod vocsols, Ihoro- 
 lore, can bo used, and wo kiio'v what economy there is in 
 enlarging the size of the ship. You Invo a longer 
 Boason ; J<ako Superior, o'ving to its j^roat depth, is 
 ojion much longer than tho other lakes, and, of course, 
 wo know tho longer tlm season tho more 
 to tho public, and tho longer tho season tho shorter 
 tho dead season for tho ship, and the cheaper she can run. 
 There is, of course, ofm disadvantage, and that is tho 
 shortening of tho run. I'lioro is no doubt a difficulty with 
 reference lo tho terminal charges and delays in |K)rt that 
 
 "has 
 can 
 
 boon 
 
 demonstrated that with a largo ship, you 
 carry grain very low upon the lakes. It gives 
 you an admirable emigrant's roa<l. You do not go on 
 American territory, which you lu' » so afraid if tho 
 immigrants onco got im the}' will iiovor quit; you can 
 
 tako them right along to (ioulais Bay, and keep thoin in only wo act in time, and str 
 
 linos, and all tho traffic that they could control would g<i 
 there. It is also to tho interosta of St. Paul to soml 
 thoir stutl" by tho shortest route to market, and sooiti;- 
 wo havo tho combined advantage of 300 miles of rail and 
 250 miles of water, we are bound, in my o|)inion, if 
 
 are Ixninu, in my o|>inir 
 •ott;h forth our hands towan 
 
 your own territory, if necessary having a regiment at tho 
 frontier to koop oft American agents. You can put them 
 aboard your own boat and tako thoin off, and you havo an 
 admirable route during tho wholo season of emigration, for 
 tho omigrantH. So, whether you look at the unequalled 
 rail and water route owned by yourselves, or tho all rail 
 route, partly within your own territory, you find you havo 
 admirable routes, and seven j-oars earlier, but with 
 traffic infinitely superior, and at an oxponso wholly 
 nominal compared with your own lino, at an 
 expense of ono-oleventh of your own lino. Because, 
 if your own lino is 6(i.'i miles long, I venture 
 to say with tho hon. Minister himself, that, to use 
 as a basis of credit tho funds nocossary to construct 
 63 miles, would insuro the construction of tho Nvholo 
 200 miles from S. K Bay to tho fcault. I do 
 not Hay if you build 63 miles you will insuro tho con- 
 struction of 290 miles, but I do say that if you uso 
 tho cost of 63 miles as a basis of credit for tho Company, 
 
 you will sufficiently establish that Company to secure not connection on the American side within u very 
 merely 63 miles but also tho remaining 227 miles, and to and we ought to bestir our.solvos in 
 
 Is thti 
 future that is waiting us, to obtain it. This is ihe lime; 
 those roails are all more or loss in procesH of construction; 
 tho Northern Pacific, as I have said, is dotornunel i(» 
 complete its lino eastward from the junction near "iJtdiiiii ti» 
 Montreal River, about 100 miles; the line is surveyed, and 
 is now being cut out; a company ha.s boon organized to 
 build tho next link of about 50 miles, this brings you to 
 the terminus of tho Marquette, Houghton & Outoiiagon 
 R. W., which is to make connection there, and of which HA 
 miles between L'Anso and Marquette are already built; 
 then you have the Marquette & Maikinaw lliiilway 
 right down to tho Straits, of which ono-half is now 
 built and the rest is to bo finished by August olf 
 this year or next. Then there is also to bo built, 
 tho thirty or forty miles to tho Sault Ste. Mario, and 
 there IS no doubt whatever that it would Im immediately 
 built the moment it was soon that tho llivor S . Murio was 
 to bo crossed and the connection to bo made wiili Montreal. 
 Therefore everything is pointing to tho comploi i 'ii of tho 
 
 brief time, 
 order to 
 
 got the wholo lino. Now I havo stated that this route is moot them, and if wo do tjostir ourselves wo shall 
 
 of vital consequence to Canada, irrespective of the North- havo, at tho earliest moment, the connection made. 
 
 West altogether. I say tho prospects it opens to us are It is important that wo should got it at tho earliest 
 
 cheering in the extreme. 1 tako as a point which is most moment, and that we should nuike this connection just as 
 
 reasonable, Glyndon, to which 1 havo before referred, soon as those people are I'cady to make it, and, therelino, 
 
 which is, if I remember aright, 132 miles to tho .south of it is a (question that is lu-essing l()r immediate consideration 
 
 the border and on tho lino of the Northern Pacific Railway, upon tho Ilouse. Tho hon. gentleman opposite siiid last yt>ar 
 
 Tho distance from Gij-ndon to Montreal by tho Sault in Montreal and Toronto, that ho (juito agreinl that the cun- 
 
 wonld be 1,307 miles. A line by tho Sault running down struction of tho Sault Ste. Mario lino would be to the piiblio 
 
 to South-East Bay, thence on to Brockville, and thenco to interest, because it would give a short route to the Xrjrth- 
 
 New York, is tho shortest lino that can bo obtained by any 
 existing or even by any projected or reasonably 
 devised moans of communication. Therefore, if tho 
 traffic from that point to Now York is going to 
 take the shortest route it will come through our 
 territory all tho way from tho Sault Ste Mario to 
 Brockville, and it will bo 1,550 miles from Glyndon to New 
 York, a saving of 209 milos. But if you suppose, as not 
 unnatural, that the great railway companies via Chicago, 
 
 West and could be presently used to get the American trade. 
 I believe that if wo can got tho .\mericaii trade we cannot; 
 but hold our own. Do you suppose that if you will go and 
 fake tho trado for 300 or 400 milos smith of tho boundary, 
 that tho Caiuulian tra<lo will go by other roads? Do yoii 
 suppose they will not prefer to go that way when tho 
 Americans, from thoir business point of view, prefer to uso 
 it ? Every man must bolievc, an tho Minister docs, that wo 
 Avill tako the American trado by the Sault line, and we must 
 
 which at present engross that trade, compote for such of it believe that wo will keep our own tratlo. My views upon this 
 M is going to Now York, and if yoa compare jj^subjoct are raaintaiuod by tlio report of tho onginoor in 
 
oo 
 
 
 till* liiKt .SA.<r«i'iii. Ilr |i(>iiilo>l out. in i«li-un;; triiiii lliat 
 lK)rli tiy IiiikI mill wikliT tlio i-(mli> «i' iIiIm lino wuh 
 ndiiiiriilili' ; that tli« niilwiiy woiiM iiiniiniiiiil tlio inxttir 
 (if nil lln« iiiiiiilry nnrtli nl' Hf. I'liiil ; tliiij win a 
 ciiiitiuiiM Mliilcnit'iil, ami my liclici' i.-* tliat it woiilij lako tix' 
 trallic (it'a ('>iri^<iilt>ral>lo arcii to iIki Hiiiitliwanl of Si. ['niil. 
 TliiH is liy 111! nii>ans an Ontai'io ijuor^licin. Tin' roail you 
 |iur|KiNo to take, urn! I am nol h*aviii^ a word ULtainnt it, tlio 
 (i;( miles ol'youi" iuojccIimI lihi', wliillicr you l;o to lln> .Saull 
 «>!• toTliumlcr May, woiilil not luint; Ontario any ncafiT t(^lln> 
 Noftli\V('r<toran\- I'lirtlu'rlrom i I, as com | irol with Mont real. 
 'Y\w intori'rttH ()l'(')htaiio !iri' not liitVcrcnt iVom tin; itiliTotHt.s ot 
 t^ui'lioi' ; tjicri' is the comihoii interest of can-yin;^ llui j^real 
 triwle of the Noitli West l)\- rail, at the earliest pos.xiMo 
 moimtnt, to the sea, ami of ^'ettin^ at the eurlic^t moment a 
 tirst eia>s summer roiito tor emigrants and IVoi^ht within 
 our own lH>undai'ie>. lioth liiese olijeets are common, and in 
 iKitii we have more than a inei'eiy local interest. Une |ihin, 
 the north shoi'e line, |pro|)Ohes to huild tjr)0 miles of railway in 
 my piovinci' whilst llio Siiull plan only >;ive.s -HO miles ul' 
 r^al to ho huilt in it ; but any person who, for that reason 
 idono would support the tirst, would bu unworthy to ho a 
 member of this llouso. What we art! bound to ilo is ti) consi- 
 der which lino is the host for the whole country, anil I uin 
 suro that ni> man from Ontario would ])Ut it upon- any 
 other jfround. I contend that my province luis nothing like 
 the inlorost of iho Province of (iueboc in thin matter, but 
 wo havo the j^enoral intorost, that interest which we Lave 
 in common with all the ollior provinces, in iho li^'liteninj^ 
 of Iho ;;oneral burdens by miniini/.in«^ the expenses, by nol 
 Hponding money unnecessarily, by not building this (iOO 
 miles over a desolate country which will j)My little or 
 nolhiik"^ which will not ho finished for ten years, wlicn at 'ho 
 expense of constructing^ I tnoele vent h of that distance you .an 
 do a great ^dikI, and do it in less than thrco years. Wo arc 
 interested in doing tho host for tho NorthWest, and wo arc 
 interested in common with all in that. Wo are intorestod in 
 tho triulo and commerce of the North-WosI, being ta.xod an 
 lightly as jiossible, and why ? Uecauso wo aro paying mil- 
 lions every year to maintain tho Xorth-Wosl ; becaur-o it i.s 
 our direct interest — tho interest of all of u.s — to doo tho 
 North- Woht self-sustaining as .soon as possible; Lccauso its 
 being solf-subtaining depends uinm a j)opulatiini gettintr in 
 there and thriving after they havo got in' ; and because 
 their getting in and thriving afterwards depend upon 
 truftto facilities being given in tho earliest and host way. 
 And therefore tho good rail and water route given by 
 Goulais Bay and ThundcM* 15ay, and tho short all rail route 
 giv n by tho Sault lino and tlio Pembina branch, are things 
 wb ill on the bcoio of oeonoiny and on the score of tho 
 in'u.rests of tho North- West, ought to commend thomseh'cs 
 to every man from every province. We all know where 
 tho grain from tho North-West will go. Jt will not go to 
 tho Province of Ontario, but it will go where it ought to go, 
 to the port ol Montreal ; and from thence will como again 
 tho great mass of the return freights. All tho goods tr. bo 
 imported from foreign countries will naturally bo sold from 
 Montreal, because tho return cars must bo brought from 
 there full or empty, and very mucli better rates can bo 
 obtained under theHo circumstances for traflio to tho West. 
 And as to manufactures, that lai'go class of Htai)lo articles 
 which aro manufactured in Montreal will, of course, go up 
 from Montreal ; and sugar, if only tho producers of that 
 article will not place it higher than tho article will 
 bear, as well as cottons, woollen.'*, and so forth, will princi- 
 pally go up from that section of tho country. Our share in 
 the direct advantago of thw trade is, in my judgment, 
 comparatively modest and insignilicant, J believe it 
 important to my province, that wo should obtain a 
 connection and get a share of that trafHe, if wo can ; we 
 /iro going to do it, J hope; but J belicvo— I sa^ it franlily. 
 
 and 1 do not -.ay it regretfully — that the groat and higtial 
 advantage of the p'an I huggortt alternutively, gooH lu tho 
 point at which tho ocoan Htoamshii) moots tho railway car, 
 aivl that is tho jiort of Montreal. Wo will, no doubt, Heiid 
 up some manutiieture<l gomls, nnd we will rocuivu homo 
 articles from that rountr}', but tho lion's share will go to 
 Montreal. .Vnd, I believe, wo all rejoice at tho prosperity of 
 Montreal, 1 believe wo, from Ontario, aro incIinOil to look at 
 Montreal as our ocoan port. For a long time our goods wero 
 not only brought, but sold there. Wo aro beginning to do a 
 little for ourselves now; but our relations with that port 
 must alwayri be of an intimate character, nnd we must 
 believe that anything that advances its prosperity 
 mu.it bo of general advantago to idl who got and 
 send their goixU by that route. Now, I can under- 
 stand, even it I cantiot Hym])athi/.e with that sort 
 of feeling whicii, in other circumstances, would be rather 
 ai>prehensive of trade going .south. 1 could understand tho 
 lion, gentleman's putting in a clau>o saying that no man 
 should build a railway in a partiiuilar direction or within 
 fifteen miles from tho United States frontier uiiles:t ho 
 belonged to tho Syndicate; I could understand his saying 
 thill, if our conditions dilt'ered. Hut, since wo iiavo tho key 
 of tho position, since when the stuff does go south, it must, 
 by tho laws of trade, find our shores agaip by tho SaultSto. 
 Marie, since all that it goes away for is to como back again, 
 since it can only go by another route at a manifest 
 disadvantage, since by that lino wo aro going to tup tiio 
 American trade, I cannot understand tho carrying to such 
 an oxtraordinary oxtoiit tho objection to using other 
 people's lines for our own purjiusos as is im])lied in tiio 
 suggestion that it is wrong to havo a south-westerly 
 line. I maintain that wo will bo able to control 
 the tratlic ot tho North West legitimately, and I do not 
 want to control it in any other wa^-. 1 do not believe wo 
 havo tho light, — speaking for posterity, speaking for the 
 future of a country which you say contains 2;)0,000,000 
 acres of fertile and habitab i land — a country which con- 
 tains such an area of fertile and habitablo land that tho 
 largest of our Provinces shrinks into uttor insignillcanco in 
 comparison — wo havo no right to say, still loss havo wo the 
 right to expect, that tho commercial prosperity of that 
 country shall bo kept depondout on any other considoration 
 than what will bo to tho highest advantage to tho producers 
 and consumers of that country — what will give thorn tho 
 cheapest route to market. 15ut it is our good fortune that 
 their and our interests will haimonizo, bocau.so wo can not 
 only give thom tho cheapest route to market, but wo can 
 point out to them that their choaijest route to market takes 
 their stutV to our own ports, and takes their imports from 
 our own ports. All wo havo to do to accomplish 
 that result is to utili/.o tho American linos. Now, 
 Sir, what do they do ? Why, Sir, ' tho western 
 peninsula of Ontario is streaked with linos loaded 
 with American tratlic. Tho Great Western has 
 tivo lines, tho Grand Trunk two linos, and tho Canada 
 Southern line, carrying thousands and thousands of 
 tons of American trallic. Why do they send it through our 
 country '( IJocause it suits thorn ; becauso it supplies tho 
 best route for thom. Thoy do not feel that it is anti-na- 
 tional to go through Canadian torritorv. Thoy do not feel 
 that there is anything humiliating in it — that there is 
 anything wrong in it. What do wo do'f Why wo send 
 our roads through American territory. Tho Government 
 the other day proposed to pay £300,000 for tho purchase of 
 a lino from tho Giand Trunk Eailway in Caimuiau territory, 
 on tho condition that the monov was to be usod in such a 
 way that the public interests would bo advanced — how 'I By 
 the Grand Trunk acquiring a lino through U.S. territory to 
 Chicago, and properly so, for commorco knows no boundary 
 lino in this matter. Comraerco socks topjak? (isoofour neigh- 
 
i)H lu tllO 
 
 wny t'lir, 
 lit, Noml 
 
 VO KOtllO 
 
 ill ^o in 
 porily of 
 
 l(j(>k at 
 Otis wofo 
 fi to (III a 
 hut |i<irt 
 
 wo llUlst 
 
 •()S|ii'rily 
 t^dt tuiil 
 II iinil«r- 
 lat HDi't 
 10 nitliop 
 tUllii tlio 
 
 no man 
 1' wittiiii 
 iilo.il ho 
 iH Huying 
 ) tlio Uoy 
 
 it rauNt, 
 
 ;uuit stu. 
 
 i^kaguiii, 
 maiiifost 
 tap tho 
 ; to hucli 
 iig othor 
 
 1 in tho 
 ■woMtorly 
 
 control 
 
 I do not 
 
 uliovo wo 
 
 for tho 
 
 1),000,000 
 
 lich con- 
 
 thut tho 
 
 Icanco in 
 
 wo tho 
 
 of that 
 
 deration 
 
 iroduccrd 
 
 loni tho 
 
 uno that 
 
 can not 
 
 wo can 
 
 col lakes 
 
 ts from 
 
 L'om))liHh 
 
 Now, 
 
 wodtorii 
 
 loaded 
 
 11 has 
 
 Canada 
 
 iiids of 
 
 lUi^h our 
 
 lies tho 
 
 unti-na- 
 
 not feci 
 
 there in 
 
 ,V0 BCIld 
 
 crnmont 
 chase of 
 rritory, 
 
 t^iich :i 
 iw? By 
 itory to 
 
 unitary 
 r neigli- 
 
 
 
 
 borM' roiulii— not in order to make conncctionH which might bo 
 naturnlly oiirown, Init inordor tomake the lH<>«t, tho nearont, 
 thochoapoMt ponimercinl connections ht-tween tho two parts 
 (if our own country. If, Mir, wo can animx coinnn'rcially a 
 part of Minnesota — a.-< llichon. ^^cntlenian said tho other day : 
 Why not do it? Hut I want U> ^n further, I want to amiiv, 
 not only MiniieMita, hut Wiieoiisin, Miclii^tiii, haknin, 
 Montana, Idaho, and Washiimton Territory. 1 helieve they 
 can he annexed to a i^rt'iit extent if you direct your energies 
 and u-<e your scanty resources wisely, an<l so get rapidly 
 this eltleii^it line, instead oi' spending ten years and many 
 millioiiH of iniiney in struggling along the north 
 hIioio of Jjako .Superior to llnd 3'oiir way to tho 
 Nordi-West. Of course, everything in relereliie to tlie 
 prolilem of tran-portation is in a stale nl' tran^iliini. Not 
 iner'cly is the e'if<t hy riiilway diminishing an<l likely 
 to diminish, hut nNo, owing to other eireuiiiHlmices, iho 
 cost liy wati'i' though our routes is likel>' to climini'-h. (hir 
 wali'r ways are being enlarged, and it is said hy experienced 
 
 Iiersons that even that measure of enlargement which is 
 leing given, will enable grain, nmler tho most advantageoiw 
 circumstances, to bo carried 13 to 50 percent < heiipor than 
 it can he carried lit proMont in tlio full size Welland canal 
 vesHclM. The picblcm, wliicdi of the two ugeiici'S, rail or' 
 water, will win in the competition for lraiis|)ortation, 
 may be caid to bo in doubt. The actual cost, not iii- 
 <duding jirolit, to take the grain from .Selkirk to Tliiiiuler 
 Bay, 'lOO miles, would be on an average road 4 cents. [ 
 have already said that you can double freights on that 
 loilwny, mid therefore you may fairly count tho rata 
 of actual cost at 2J cents, making no allowance 
 for ]iro(il at all. It is pretty clear, I think, from 
 what information I have boon able to gather, that 
 you can freight the grain in largo vos.sels on Lako 
 Superior at I'lom ]\ to -A cents from I'rinco Arthur's 
 liaiiding totoniiais liny, the smaller sum being tho actual 
 cost, and the larger one embracing a prolit ; and tiie average 
 rate from (ioulais to ^Montreal is tlA cents, mal;inga total of 
 10^ cents. If you go by the lakes, ^-ou pay 2i cents to 
 Thunder Ihy and thence to iMontreal 7 cents making 
 a total of IlJ cents lor actual tost exclu-^ive of profit, so 
 that at present both I'ouies are nearly equal, and at 
 jircseiit both routes are very good if only you resolve 
 not t(j hand (jver thoye ndvant.'ge.s which you have bought 
 and paid for to otliera that they may profit by them, 
 instead of your couiitrymeii. I liavo to advert to another 
 topic of minor, butwtill of great importance. L do not think 
 that the facilities and regulations as to rates for connee- 
 lion with Ontario line are adequate. 1 quite agree that the 
 system might perhaps be adequate, if this great corporation 
 had its terminus and the enil of its connections at agiven 
 point, at Lake Nipisriing, but it is obvious from what we know 
 of tho position of iho Syndicate, from the very contract 
 itself, which contemjilates tho amalgamation of the Canada 
 Central with ino railway company, from tho powers given 
 it to purchase other railway companies, that we are or may 
 bo dealing with a corjioration composed of one gigantic 
 railway stretdiing all the way to Montreal. If tho object is to 
 taketratlie from that railway at Lake Nipissing, it isclear 
 there are ilevices known to astute railway men by which that 
 may bo avoided. They may charge to Nipissing a very 
 high rate from the West. Il would bo no consequence to 
 them if a low rate were charged from Nipissing to Montreal 
 on the lino of the Canada Central. You will be dealing 
 with a corporation whoso interests will lend it to send tho 
 traffic in a particular direction and you must 
 guanl carefully against wrong. Now I want nothing for 
 tho Province of Ontario except to secure that she shall not 
 bo placed at a disadvantage. 1 am sure no hon. gentleman 
 will refuse her that. What I want is that she shall be so 
 guarded that she shall have a fair chance to compete for 
 
 that modest nhare of tho truille that oii){ht to eomo to her, and 
 I do not believe that thisHeeurily is given her. Now, I cannot 
 unileivitand why il is that this mon.itroiis burguin has ls<en 
 brought down to I'arlianii'nt, bow it it is that Slinisters who, 
 during the Inst Hcs-ion of I'mliament, told us that they were 
 alilii without inl'riiiging upon or biirdi'iiing the resoureesof the 
 roiintry to e.inslriiet the I'luilic Itailway, "liould bi'ing down 
 a plan nhieli does not relieve us from the burdiui of its 
 eoiislraetion, which obliges ns to go on Npeinling our money 
 lor ti'iiyears to come, whieli involves a total expeniliture by u« 
 of ^liii.OiMVM)!), and the total cession of 25,0l)(),U(M( acres of 
 our ehoiecst lands, and wiiii li hiinds over to u private cor- 
 poration the whole profits of that expenditure and avast 
 iiioiio|Mily Mild iiieali'ul.'ilile boons of various kinds. The hon. 
 geiitleiiii'ii did go too far last si's-.ion. They insisted on 
 l>nilding at miee in British Coluinbiii. They alioined the 
 country by what they tlid. lliid they proceedtsl in the 
 liu>inesM like way suggested, had they gone on with tho 
 Thunder Hay biiinch and the praiiie i-e<iion, had they agreed 
 that our fiiiaiiees eoiiid not stand tin* strain of build- 
 ing in IJritihh Colunihui, there would have been no 
 rea-!iui for them to do the thing they have done and invito 
 I'ailiaiiii'iit to pii>s the coiitraet they have laid before us. Hut 
 thi>y did that thing, they niade those statements whicdi the 
 public mind did not credit, and they felt that they were 
 lioniid to make some other arrangement to oHcajie from tho 
 difli'ulty inio which lliey had plunged themselves. They 
 go to I'liiglandand tlie\- make tho attempt. It turns out that 
 they did not succeed in Knglund. Tho First Mini«tor saiil 
 that they bad vei\\- nearly failed, and that when they left 
 I'ltigland they had not sueeecdi-d in making u bargain at all, 
 that details which were f» vital that disagreement un9n 
 them would nullity tho whole ]iroceedings were still in 
 suspense when they came here, and remained in suspeiiHo 
 some six or seven week's alter they arrived. Prudence 
 demanded that they shoulil siin|)ly s'ly that negotiations 
 were going on and that the}- hoped to succeed in arriving 
 at a conclusion , but the hon. gentlemen would not wait. 
 They announced a triumph ; they announced that they ha<l 
 alicady made their bargain ; that tho contract was " firm ;" 
 and by such an announcement placed themselves in tho 
 hands of those g(intlemon wlio formed tho Syndicate. They 
 could not all'onl thereafter todiller from those gentlemen. In 
 what poiition wore they todiller from them. The hon. Minister 
 had announced, and tlie people had nccoptcd his utti^'ance, 
 that a bargain had been made which would ensure the 
 construction of the railway without cost to tho people, anil 
 induce a irreat flow of immigration into the North- VVest. 
 What in tho world could he say it', after being 
 hero seven weeks, ho should ho obliged to give 
 tho lie to those declarations and to say: " I had 
 made no bargain at all, I had only agreed upon 
 some certain general lines. All those details remained 
 unsettled when 1 spoke to you, the Syndicate and wo could 
 not agree to terms, and consequently we are whore wo 
 wore." That would inilecd have been a great humiliation. 
 To the chance of that humiliation ho exposed himself, 
 and in order to avoid it 1 do not doubt he has passed many 
 anxious hours struggling with tho men in whoso toils ho 
 liad i)laccd himself, and endeavouring to obtain some term.<» 
 less hiid than those to which he has been obliged tosubmitin 
 tho end, struggling from day to day, scrutinizing, consider- 
 ing, and endeavouring to get these gentlemen to take some- 
 thing less than tho bargain they insisted upon. They know 
 that tho First Minister could not afford to declare that 
 what he had stated was not correct, and that they could press 
 him to bargain aflcr bargain, to stipulation after stipulation, 
 point after point, additional pound of flesh to additional 
 pound of flesh, until they had their fill ; thus it is that this 
 contract has been prep.nred. A contract might have been 
 presented containing altogether othor terms which might 
 
I** 
 
 If 
 
 24 
 
 have been worthy of our adoption. This contract is worthy, 
 in my opinion, only our rejection. I shall not veutun. to 
 hope that this House will reject it, but I do not doubt that 
 ftn indignant country, although you will not give it time 
 now to raise its voice, will take the earliest opportunity to 
 inflict u summary penalty upon those persons, offenders 
 
 for the second time, who having once betrayed) WMii'flft'; 
 trusted with power their country's honour, and having been 
 forgivon,havo now takon advantage of the opportunity which 
 a too confiding people conferred upon tbenn to betray in the 
 same transaotion her mott vital and material interests. 
 
 Printed by MacLean, Roohr A Co., PnrliamontHry Printers, Wi'lliiiitlon Stroiit. Ottnwn. 
 
 ' '<: 
 
 ,,. A, .-;■„., 
 
 K.t jjaa t j K- k:m '* ^i ^» *^ '"'^^'^ 
 
N