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VRte^

^^4^'i^^m^ : ^0^^i^^^^_^^ ^^^m^^^^^^(k^^^^^9^m>!M^^

REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS

OF THE

TAX EXEMPTION

HELD IN THE

CITY Hall, TORONTO

ON THE

9TH AND loTH OF SEPTEMBER, 1897

" '''It

->j ' ' ^ as-

CANADA

NATIONAL LIBRARY

LiBLIOTHEQUE NATIONALE

A-

REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS

OF THE

m EXEMPTIDN CONyENTlflN

HKLl) IN THE

CITY HALL, TORONTO

ON THE

9TH AND loTH OF SEPTEMBER, 1897

TAX EXEMPTION CONVENTION HELD IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBER
OF THE CITY HALL, IN THE CITY OP TORONTO ON THURS-
DAY AND FRIDAY, THE 9TH AND lOTH DAYS OF
SEPTEMBER. 1897.

^^^^ >

Thursday, September 9th, 10 o'clock, a.m.

His Worship, Mayor Shaw, of the City of Toronto, culled the Convention
to order and addressed the members as follows:

We are delighted to have delegations, in connection with any business,
meet in Toronto, but the delegation in connection with the question of tax
exemption is most welcome; I may say doubly and thrice welcome are the
delegates to a convention which will grapple with the vexed question of
taxation.

Here in Toronto we have several kinds of taxation; we have a taxation
according to value, we have a taxation according to foot frontage, and we
have something in the nature of a poll tax for water takers.

You, perhaps, will be specially called upon to deal with exemptions.
That question is always before our municipal body; we have attempted to
get legislation that would do away with exemptions but hitherto we have
failed. And now we have called together the representatives of the muni-
cipal bodies from all over the Province of Ontario, hoping that we may be
able to get such an expression of opinion from them, and such united effort
and concerted action as will force the local legislature to do away with
exemptions. ,, ,.■,,.■";.,: - ^-^:. ^ \-<'.. ^ , .-■.- :■*--.,>:

That any property which receives the benefit of police and fire pro-
tection, the cleaning and watering of the streets, and such other services as
are absolutely necessary for the health, comfort and conv<*nience of the
citizens should not pay any portion of the cost of these services seems to
me incomprehensible. I do not know upon what sound principle of econo-
mics such a state of things exists. You will most likely find that it rests
upon political exigencies baead upon a theory.

It is your duty, I believe, to consider well this question of tax exemption,
and I would ask you also to consider another question which I myself am
deeply interested an, I refer to the question of the taxation of foot frontage
for the payment for sidewalks and other local improvements.

Your first duty will be to elect a chairuian, and then, of course, will
arise such other questions in connection with the whole question of taxation
as may come up. I do not know that you are entirely confined to the ques-

tlon of exemptions; I think, porhaps. your deliberations will take a broader
sc<»pe. and you will deal with many questions connected with taxation l:e-
side the question of exemptions.

I again welcome you to Toronto and trust your visit will be a pleasant
as well as a profitable one.

I would ask you to proceed to business. (Applause).

Mayor Johnston. Belleville — I think it is fitting that the gentleman who
occupies the position of Mayor of the City of Toronto should preside at this
meeting as Chairman, and I have much pleasure in making a motion to that
effect.

Mayor Radford. Gait — I have much pleasure in seconding the motion.

Mayor Shaw — Before that motion is put I might state that I would be
most delighted to be your chairman, because 1 take a deep interest in the
questions that will come before you, but it will be impossible for me to act
as your cliairman, as within the next two or three days I have to visit a
great many places. I have a number of meetings to attend and a lot of busi-
ness to look after.

Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — I have very much pleasure in recommend-
ing to this Convention Mayor Elliot, of Brantford. for the chair.

Aid. McAndrew. Hamilton — I second that.

W. A. Clarke, York Township — I nominate Aid. Carlyle as Chairman.
He lives in the city and has taken a great intierest in matters connected with
taxation, and I think he would be a very suitable gentleman to be chairman
of this Convention.

Aid. Carlyle, 'I'oronto — I thank the gentleman for the complimi-nt fo
kindly paid me, but I have my own opinion about this matter, as I have
given it some thought. The Corporation of the City of Toronto have taken
the initiative in the matter, they have done the work of organiz.ati<m, and
everything that has so far been done has been done by them, and now we
want those from the outside to come in at this stage and assist us, and one
of the ways in which that can be accomplished is by giving us a chairman
from the outside. I decline the nomination. I would like to move that the
Mayor of Kingston, Mr. G. S. Skinner, be the presiding officer of this Con-
vention.

Mayor Johnson. Belleville — I would move that Aid. Scott, of Toronto, be
chairman of this Convention.

Mayor Shaw called for further nominations, there being no further

that

nominees he stated that there were throe names before the Convention,
candidates lor the office of chairman, namely Mayor Elliott. Brantford;
Mayor Skinner, Kingston; and Aid. Scott, of Toronto; and, on a vote having
been taken declared Aid. Scott, ot Toronto, duly elected to the office of
chairman.

Ald. Scott in the Chaih.

Aid. Scott — I beg to thank you for the nomination and appointment.
The next order of business, which I think may now fairly be taken up, is
the appointment of a Secretary. We are now ready to receive nominations.
The following gentlemen were nominated for the office of Secretary: Mayor
.Johnson, Belleville (declined); W. A. Clarke, York Township (declined);
Cuunciller Southei*an, Lindsay (declined).

The Chairman — I do not think that any gentleman need be deterred
from taking the office. We have a shorthand reporter who will make a
report of the proceedings and the duties of the Secretary will be compara-
tively light.

Councillor Laughton. Toronto .Junction, moved, seconded by Aid.
Carlyle that Aid. Leslie, Toronto, be Secretary of this Convention.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — I object, and it is with some h«'sitancy. but
T think it would be wise for the sake of this Cimventiou that the two chief
officers of this, the first Convention, should not be from the City of Toronto.
I would like it to be so arranged that when we go home to Hamilton they
cannot say that this was a Toronto Convention .solely in the inter<'sts of the
City of Toronto, but that it is in the interests of the Province of Ontario.

Aid. Leslie, Toronto — I heartily concur with the last speaker; Alderman
Carlyle and myself have been strongly of the opinion that outsiders should
be the presiding officers of this Convention, but if outsiders are going to
decline, I, as one of the Toronto delegates, am prepared to try to further the
success of this Convention. We are here to do work, and not to decline or
shirk duty. I have not the slightest desire to be Secretary, but still if no
one else will take the office I am willing to act.

The Chairman called for further nominations.

Mayor Elliott, Brantford, moved, seconded by Aid. Finlay. Hamilton,
that Aid. Howard. Guelph. be appointed Secretary.

Aid. Howard, Guelph— I decline the nomination.

Cries of " vote; vote." . >. , ^ . . < ^.i- ,:. • , *

-It f^^j^li^l!

There being no further nominations the Chalrraan, on a vote being
taken, declared Aid. Li-slie, Toronto, unanimously electt'd to the office of
Secretary.

Aid. Leslie— I thank you very kindly for the important position to which
you have elected me, and I will endeavor to discharge my duties to the best
of my ability.

Five o'clock, p.m., was fixed as the hour at which, at the invitation
of the Mayor and Aldernu'n of the City of Toronto, the visiting delegates
should partake of a luncheon at Webb's Parlors, Yonge street.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I might say with regard to the programme be-
fore you that it is not like the laws of the Medes and Persians; you can
alter it in any way you like. I do not think the next item that we should
have a Committee on Credentials is necessary.

The Chairman — This programme gives the order of business which is
before the Convention; if this order of business is acceptable to the mem-
bers of the Convention it would be well to move the adoption of it as the
order of procedure. ;

Aid. Parnell, Loudon — I would move that the order laid down in the
pamphlet before us be the order of business governing this 'Convention.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— It is stated on this pamphlet that all motions
shall immediately go to the Committee on Resolutions. If, during the pro-
ceedings, I feel inclined to bring in a motion, which I may not be able to
bring in this morning before we adjourn, but may be able to bring it in this
afternoon, will I be in order in doing so?

The Chairman— That is matter entirely for the Convention to deal with.

Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls— Supposing a question comes up for dis-
cussion anvi I feel I ought to move a resolution on it, shall I be debarred
by this order of proctniure from mo ig a resolution at the time?

The Chairman — That is for the Conventi(»n to say.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— My dea of that is simply this, that any resolu-
tiou on something new will have to go to the Committee on ResoIuti(ms, but
should an amendment be moved to the report of that Committee, then that
can be taken up at once by t' Convention and dealt with.

On motion the word "may" was substituted for the word "shall" in
the clause of the programme referring motions to the Committee on
Resolutions.

was

take]
the
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Mayor Smyth, Lindsay — I wish to ask for information. I undi^rstand
that the question of whether this shall bt; an annual convention or not will
bo before us, and I would like to know whether the programme provides
for that? If it does not I would move that a clause providing for that be
added to the order of business.

W. J. Smale, North Bay — I second that.

The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, was
declared carried, the proposed clause to be inserted in the order of business
before tht; final adjournment on Friday.

Aid. Cnrlyle, Toronto — I would like to have a word to say with regard to
that. This question of an annual gathering is a very important matter, and
I do not think it should Ik> left until the dying hours of this Convention.
When nearing the close of a Convention many of the members go away. Let
us deal with the matter either to-night, or let it be the first order of busi-
ness for to-morrow morning, so that justice may be donvi to it.

I move, seconded by Aid. Howard, Guelph, that the question of the
annual gathering be the first order of business Friday morning.

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — Before the question is voted upon, 1
would like to say I do not see any better time for dealing with this question
than now. I think we might settle it in a few minutes. I move in amend-
ment that the question be settled now.

J. L. McCullough, East Toronto — I second that.

The Chairman put the amendment which, on a vote having been taken,
was declared lost.

The Chairman then put the original resolution, which on a vote having
been taken, was declared carried.

D. Robertson, St. Catharines — I would move that no new business be
taken up at the afternoon session on Friday. My reason for that is that at
the latter part of a Convention of any kind usually a good many of the
members disappear before the Convention is through, and if new business is
taken up after that it might be carried through without receiving due con-
sideration.

Mayor Quinlan, Port Hope — I second the motion. As has been stated,
there might be something taken up and put through with only a very small
number of the members of the Convention present. Business might be taken
up when there would not be a third of the members present, and the entire
intent of the lai-ger body chauf^ed by some resolution then being brought in

and cnrrit'd through. 1 think it is only lair that ut that meeting nothing
new should be taken up. I think the sentiments of this Convention will bo
generally known in the first three sessions, and nothing new should be
brought up that would change the entire intent of this Convention.

Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — We should not lay down any cast iron rules In
this first meeting; we should be as easy and free as possible. Every one
who repri'sents a constituency must know that he is expected to do his duty.
I for one will not shrink from doing my duty.

(Cries of " motion, motion."

D. Robertson. St. Catherines — I would like to sjiy, with the permission
of the delegates, that while I have not changed my views one particle with
regard to ihe desirability of such a clause, I do not wish to see any time |
wasted, and, with the permission of my seconder, I will withdraw the motion.

Mayor Quinlan, Port Hope — I feel sure from the expression of this meet-
ing that they do not wish it. I have no doubt but that in this meeting, like
all other meetings, there are those who have given this matter very careful
study, and no doubt they wish their views carried out, and I feel the best
thing I can do is to give my consent to the withdrawal of the motion, and
in doing so I feel quite assured that those who have given this their careful
consideration will carry through just what they intended. Motion with-
drawn.

The Chairman put the motion to adopt the printed programme as
amended as the order of procedure for this Convention, which, on a vote
having been taken, was declared carried.

Mayor Hewer Guelph, moved, seconded by Mayor Radford, Gait, that the
following gentlemen comprise the Committee on Credentials. Mayor Johnson,
Belleville; Mayor Skinner, Kingston; Mayor Elliott, Brantford; and Mayor
Barnes, Smith's Falls.

The Chairman put the motion, which, on a vote being taken, was de-
clared carried.

Mayor Elliott. Brantford, moved, seconded by Aid. Parnell, of Loudon.
th.at the following gentlemen compose the Committee on Resolutions: Mayor
Hewer, Guelph; Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton; Aid. McKelvey. Kingston; Aid.
Duncan, Brantford; Aid. Carlyle, Toronto; Mayor Smyth, Lindsay; W. A.
Clarke, Clerk, York Township; Mayor Wright, St. Thomas; and Mayor
Thompson. Owen Sound.

The Chairman put the moti(m, which, on a vote having been taken was
declared carried. ^ ; ,.; -

g nothing
)n will bo
should bo
n.

m rules in
Every ont*
3 his duty.

permission
irticle with,
e any time
the motion.

: this meet-
leeting, like
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>ei the best
motion, and
heir careful
[otion with-

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L, on a vote

talt, that the
yor Johnson,
; and Mayoi?

ken, was de-

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itions: Mayor |
:ingston; Aid. t
iidsay; W. A. "
; and Mayor

;en taken was

Communications.

The Secretary, Aid. Leslie, read communications from Mr. John Hogg,
Collingwood, Mr. P^lannory, North Bay, Mayor Smyth, Lindsay, Single Tax
Association, A. C. Thompson, Secretary, Geo. J. Bryan of the Henry George
Club, and Mr. J. L. McCulloch, East Toronto; also list of tax exemption^
prepared by City Solicitor, Toronto; also Resolution from the City ot HamM-
ton; which were reterred to the Committee on Resolutions.

Motions.
Moved by Aid. Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by W. J. Smale, North Bay:

Whereas wo believe tkat in this Province the burden of taxation is not
equitably distributed, and that this inequality arises principally from the
fact that under the Assessment Act a large amount of real estate, personalty
and income, is wholly or partially exempt from taxation;

And whereas we are of the opinion that it is only fair and just that
all who partake directly or indirectly in the benefits of municipal govern-
ment should pay a fair proportion of the expense thereof;

Be it resolved, that in the opinion of this Convention the Legislature of
the Province of Ontario should bo memorialized to revise and amend the
said Act, embodying so far as practicable the principles set forth in the
following clauses:

That this Convention is in favor of the principle of assessing each in-
dividual according to his or her actual worth on real and personal property
without discrimination, and that companies, whether incorporated or not,
in this respect shall be treated as individuals.

That this Convention is in favor of the principle of abolishing all tax
exemptions.

Moved by Aid. Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by P. W. Robinson. Stieets-
ville:

That it be an instruction to the Executive Committee appointed by this
Convention to take such steps as is deemed necessary to have the two fol-
lowing questions submitted to a vote of the persons qualified to vote at
the Municipal Elections to be held in January next.

1. Are you in favor of the principle of assessing each individual accord-
ing to his or her actual worth in real and personal property?

2. Are you in favor of the principle of abolishing all exemptions

And in the event of one or both of these questions being answend in
the affi'-mative by a majority of the electors in a majority of the municipali-
ties where the questions shall have been submitted, then such further steps
shall be taken as the Committee deems necessary to secure legislation on
these lines.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I will put this resolution in. It was passed
by the Hamilton City Council on March 18th, 1897: " That a petition be
presented to the Parliament of Canada, (this petition was presented by A. T.
Wo(td, Esq., M.P., for Hamilton), asking that all salaries of officials employ-
ed under the Dominion Government be made subject to be taxed by all
municipalities in the same manner as the salaries of other persons in such
municipalities, and that such salaries be also made liable to attachment for
debt to the same extent as the salaries of other persons."

Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — I second the motion.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chaitham — I claim thai the assessment of an equal tax
is unjust, particulR,rly as to the tax on income. Why should a school teacher
or a poor minister of the Gospel who is getting $1,500 be assessed compara-
tively as high as a taxpayer or ratepayer who is getting $10,000?

Aid. Emory, Hamilton — Is this in order? This is not the time for dis-
cussion.

The Chairman — I think this is not the time for discussion. Thesw
motions are simply put in, in order that they may be referred to the Com-
mittee on Resolutions for consideration. When that Committee reports
upon these resolutions then discussion will be in order.

Reading op Papers.

J. L. MoCu'loch, East Toronto — I have mislaid the paper I intended to
read, but if it makes no difference I will state what I had intended to state
in reading the paper.

The Convention conseutefl to Mr. McCulloch stating verbally what was
contained in his paper.

J. L. McCulloch, East Toronto — The reason I take this opportunity of
speaking upon the subject of taxing Street Railways is owing to the fact of
our municipality being the first municipality in the Province of Ontario (if
I am informed correctly) that has assessed and collected taxes from a street
railway company.

In the year 18r>6 our Assessor assessed for the year 1896, And also for

also for

1895, the Toronto & Scarboro' Ry. Co. upon their line which runs through
our village, and hf was successful in collecting those taxes. Upon tho assess-
ment being made in 1897 the Company appealed against the assessment, and
it went before the County Judge, and the same Judge who dismissed their
appeal last year allowed it this year, so that we are out of It for 1897.

Now, I think, owing to the position that street railways are taking
and are going to take throughout the Province of Ontario, this question of
taxation will become more and more a question with the municipalities
through which they run. Those of us who have had actual experience with
these corporations find that they are very unruly and very hard to manage,
especially in our own little village, where we have had almost a hand to
hand fight. It might be interesting to know that the Toronto Railway Com-
pany presumed to build just where they lik<'d. without reference to the
municipality through which they wished to run. They laid down rails this
pummer and we promptly put them in the ra.vine; and, at the same time
they had an action in court asking the court to give them permission and
power to build the road, which we refused, and the matter is still before Ihe
courts. They took this high handed way of currying out their intentions.
Fortunately they have not been able to build the road, although what the
outcome will be we do not know. However, my, brother councilmen and
myself are in this position, we are <;ommitted to stand our trial for the
removal of those rails, and the magistrate who has committed us for trial,
in his clemency, says he will give us the benefit of the doubt. It is a most
peculiar judgment aJid one that would be interesting reading for magis-
trates. He sets out in the judgment that there is no damage to the rails,
but he finds subsequent damages may amount to over $20; he finds also
that the Toronto Railway Company did wrong in putting the rails there,
and then he concludes all by siiying he gives the defendants the ben(>fit
of the doubt and commits them for trial. What the outcome of this may
be we do not know. However, we arc not particularly anxious as long as
we are able to maintain our rights. This is a case where a powerful cor-
poration is trying to steal what does not belong to it simply because our^
is a small municipality. I think it is something that interests not only
East Toronto, but every other municipality in the Province of Ontario.
Some day they will all have this matter to deal with, and the question
should be now finally st>ttled whether the municipality has the power it
presumes it has or not.

As regards the taxing of. the property of the Company, and I wish to
pivr credit to whom it is due, it was through the conversations of our
.Assessor with the City Assessor that the City of Toronto first made an
attempt to make an asseaament upon the Railway Company. The late

1'2

Assessment Commissioner, Mr. Maughan, was in consultation with our
Assessor, and it was owing to his persuasive powers that Mr. Maughan
made the first attempt to collect taxes from the Company.

There is no reason, to my mind, why a railway company should be
exempt from taxation on their rails, poles, wires and franchise, any more
than a man engaged in the grocery or dry feoods business should be; it is
not an industry that creates employment particularly; it as simply an en-
terprise that follows upon the industry of others; and its wealth and its
revenue exist because of the industry of other people, or of the community:
and why it should be singled out and allowed to escape is a peculiar matter.
It enjoys its income and d'ivideuds. which are assessable, from the com-
munity in which it exists, but the dividends may be paid we don't know
where, and consequently the assessor cannot get at them. I think in this
Convention some steps should be taken asking the legislature to make it
perfectly clear that all property of a street railway company should be
assessed, and not assessed alone as to so much value in wire and material,
but as to the value of its revenue producing qualities.

That is the real gist of what I had intended to say in my paper. This
question of assessment should include not only the rails, poles, wires, etc.,
but the value it has as a revenue producer; the same as the value in land.
Land is not assessed for what it costs; the City of Toronto does not assess
the land on the corner of Yonge and King streets for what it cost the pur-
chaser, but for what its value is as a revenue producer; and, I think, when
the Street Railway Company is assessed it should be assessed in like
manner.

I thank you for your courtesy in listening to my remarks.

On motion of Alderman Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by Mayor Hewer.
Guelph, the Committee on Resolutions were given permission to retire for
the purpose of considering the matters placed before them.

Mayor Elliott (Brantford), moved, seconded by Aid. Keating (St.
Catharines), that members be allowed during the adjournment to hand in
resolutions which shall be referred to the Committee on Resolutions, which,
on a vote having been taken was declared carried.

Reeve Hill, York Township, moved, seconded by Aid. Emory, Hamilton,
that the Convention do now adjourn until two o'clock, p.m.. which on a
vote having been taken was declared carried.

Convention adjourned.

f th.'
u

to
Dc

ith our
laughan

lould be
ny more
be; It is
y an en-

and its
nmunity;
r matter,
the com-
n't Icnow
k in this
I make it
ihould be

material,

per. This
,rires, etc.,
e in land,
not assess
t the pur-
ink, when
3d in like

or Hewer,
retire for

sating (St.
to hand in
ons, which,

, Hamilton,
vhich on a

2 O CLOCK P.M.

The Chairman called the Convention to order and stated that the first
order of business was the presentation and consideration of the report of
the Committee on Credentials.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — As my name is the first on the Committee
on Credentials I may say on behalf of that Committee that we deemed it
unnecessary to meet as the Convention had agreed to take the report of
Mr. lilevins.

The Chairman called for the presentation and consideration of the
report of the Committee on Resolutions.

The Secretary presented and read the report of the Committee on Reso-
lutions as follows.

Your Committee on Resolutions presents its first report.

No. 1 — We recommend for consideration resolution by Aid. Carlyle and
Mr. Smale.

No. 2 — Resolution by Aid. Carlyle and Mr. P. W. Robinson.

No. 3 — Resolution by Council of the City of Hamilton.

No. 4 — Resolution by Mayor Johnson and Aid. Doyle.

No. 5— Resolution by F. Marx and J. L. McCulloch.

No. 6 — Resolution by Aid. McAndrew and Aid. Haniiaford.

No. 7 — Letter from Town of Collingwood. Last clause concurred in. .

Nos. 8, 9 and 10— Resolutions not recommended.

No. 11 — Request not recommended.

No. 12 — No action. Delegate present.

No. 13 — Letter from Mayor of Lindsay re programme for Friday.,

No. 14 — No action taken. Questions embodied in other resolutions.

All members of Committee present.

(Sgd)

Wm. McAndrew,

: Ohainiian.

Mayor Johnson. Belleville, moved, seconded by Mayor Radford, Gait,
that the first report of the Committee on Resolutions be received, which, on

a vote having been taken, was declared carried and the report received.

!
Hearing Deputations from Diti,y Authorized Bodies.

The Chairman — I may say in this connection application has been made
to me as your Chairman to hear one or two representatives, one, Mr.
Douglas, representing the Single Tax Association; I notice also present u

representative of the Property Owners* Association of the Oity of Toronto.
I do not know whether there is any other delegation present wishing to
address this Convention. What is the wish of the Convention with regard
to hen ring a representative from the Single Tax Association?

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — One of those applications was referred to
the Conimittee on Resolutions, and they have made a report upon it..

The Secretary— Clause No. 11 of the report is a letter from George J.
Bryan, asking that the writer, who has been delegated to appear as the
representative of the Henry George Club, be given a hearing; and the re-
commendation of the Committee is that the request be not granted. Clause
No. 14 of the report is with regard to a communication from the Single Tax
Aseociation asking certain questions. Of course, this communication was
written before the meeting of the Convention, and is simply asking whether
it is proposed to abolish this or the other exemption, and whether any notice
will be taken of other inequalities, as they claim, in the law. The Com-
mittee in its report stated that no action was taken, as these questions are
embodied in other resolutions before the Convention.

The Chairman — What is your wish with regard to the matter?
Aid. Harnaford, Hamilton — I move that they be heard.

Mayor Smyth, Lindsay — The reason we reported as we did was that
according to the programme only those who were duly authoi1.^,ed to be
present were entitled to a hearing; and if we allowed one to speak who waa
not duly authorized we might have to .allow an endless uumbtn' without any
recommendation, and it would take up a lot of our time. That is the reason
why the Committee did not recommend that this delegate should be allowed
to come before the Convention. As to the communication from the Single
Tax Association, the same questions were included in the resolution of Alder-
man Carlyle, and consequently can be brought up when that resolution is
discussed.

Aid. FInlay, Hamilton — I would second the motion of Aid. Hannaford
that Mr. Bryan be heard. I do not think we would be pestered with any
other societies, or bothered in the manner in which Mayor Smyth spoke. I
would like to hear what Mr. Bryan has to say on the single tax question.

Mayor .Johnson, Belleville^May I ask whether this pamphlet which
was sent to all the delegates before they arrived here emanates from the
same society? If it does then T think we have all their arguments before us.
Those who have taken the pains (o read this document have gone over, I
dare say. very carefuUj their arguments, and if that be so I think it would
be unnecessary to hear any verbal Information on the same subject.

u beei

f Toronto,
vishing to
ith regard

eferred to
1 it.

George J.
ear as the
jid the re-
ed. Clause
Single 'Tax
cation was
ng whether
■ any notice

The Com-
lestions are

ter? '

d was that
(rized to be
ak who was
without any
s the reason
1 bo allowed
1 the Single
on of Alder-
resolution is

Hannaford
ed with any
y^th spoke. I

question.

iphlet which
tes from the
ats before us.

gone over. I
link it would

subject.

The Chairman — Mr. Bryan, d(»es this pamphlet contain the views upon
which you wish to speak before this Convention? . ...,,•.,

Mr. Bryan — It contained them ihen, but not what I wish to state now.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — The trouble is this, our friend from the Henry
George Society has one view a week iigo to-day and another view to-day;
what then is the use of hearing his views at all on the matter, because we
do not know what his views will be a week hence. If his views are sub-
stantially what they were when he penned that document it would be all

right, but he tells us that they are not the same. '

Ik
Mayor Johnson, Belleville — I would add further that it is quite evident

that the views this gentleman desires to present to this Convention are
simply the views of an individual. If he is a duly accredited representative
of a munioipality he will have the right to air his views before this 'Con-
vention; if he is not then he has no standing in this Convention at all, and
I would not, as an individual, desire to hear his personal views at all.

The Chairman — With regard to being a duly accredited represeniative,
it is within the province of this Convention to hear anyone, if they so desire,
if this Convention see fit to hear either of these representatives it is within
their province to say they shall. v; ,; ■

Mayor Radford, Gait — A great number of us come here for a special pur-
pose, for the purpose of discussing tax exemptions, and we are very
anxious to get through the work; we are not prepared to come here to listen
to any special theories, and I think we ought to settle down to business. .

The Chairman — It has been moved by Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton, second-
ed by Aid. Finlay, Hamilton, that we hear the representative of the Henry
George Society for ten minutes. Shall that motion include for ten minutes
longer the representative of the Single Tax Association? Then also we have
the representative of the Ratepayers' Asssociation of the City of Toronto
here, shall he be allowed to speak or shall the representatives of the City
of Toronto be considered as representing his views?

Dr. Barrick — I came here merely for the purpose of hearing these gentle-
men discuss this matter; I do not want to be heard, and our Associatioi has
not asked to be heard, we want to leave the matter perfectly free to the
gentlemen who have come here to discuss it.

The Chairman put Aid. Hannaford's moti<m, which, on a vote having
been taken, was declared lost.

CONSIDRRATION OF THK RePOKT OF THE COMMITTER ON KESOLUTIONS.

The Chairman— I might ask whether it is the wish of thi' members of
the Convention that the report be taken up clause by clause in the order in
which it is before the Convention?

Aid. Parnell— I would move that the report be taken np seratim.

The Chainniin put the motion which, on a vote being taken, was de-
clared carried. , • >

The Secretary read Aid. Carlyle's motion as follows: —

Moved by Aid. Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by Mr. Smale, North Bay;
That whereas we believe that in the Province the burden ot taxation is not
equitably distributed, and that this inequality arises principally from the
factlhat under tlie Assessment Act a large amount of real estate, personalty
and income, is wholly or partially exempt from taxation.

And whereas we are of the opinion that it is only fair and just that all
who partake directly or indirectly in the benefits of municipal government
should pay a £air proportion of the expenses thereof;

Be it resolved, that in the opinion of this Convention the Legislature of
the Province of Ontario should be memoralized to revise and amend the said
Act, embodying so far as practicable the principles set forth in the following
clauses:

That this Convention is in favor of the principle of abolishing all tax
exemptions.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I move the adoption of the first clause of the
report, namely, my own resolution. In doing so I may say that I do not
think it is necessary for me to take up a great deal of the time of the Con-
vention. We have tried as far as possible in that resolution to keep clear
of all side issues, and simply to try to establish a principle. We want to go
to the government with this principle, that all wealth, in whatever form or
fashion it is to be found, shall bear its just share of taxation. Now, the
question Is asked what is ,a just share? In my humble judgment the share
we ought to pay is just in proportion to the benefits we derive from the
community in which we live. There is no doubt there is a very great differ-
ence of opinion on this matter; there is no doubt a number of delegates have

TIONS.

embers of
e order in

1. was de-

^orth Bay;

,1iou is not

from the

personalty

ust that all
government

gislature of
ind the said
tie following

ing each in-
nal property
ited or not,

ihing all tax

lause of the
lat I do not
1 of the Con-
keep clear
;re want to go
ever form or
a. Now, the
!nt the share
ive from the
' great differ-
elegates have

one thing and another they wonld like to see exempted, but the very
moment we commence to ask lor exemption for this. that, or the other thing.
In my humble opinion, we destroy the soundness of our position. Our posi-
tion Is to go to the government and get them to c(»nsent to the principle that
everything shall bear its just share of taxation, and let the government take
the responslbllty of doing the exempting. They do that now. These exemp-
tions are established by statute, we cannot alter; them; munlclp.-ilitios h.-ive
not power to alter them. Let us then lay the responsibility at the door of
t'^e government, I care not which party is In power; let them take the
responsibility, and let us simply go with the principle, and not deviate one
iota from that principle In one form or another. There is no doubt that
there are many things that some people would like to see exempted; but
If we go Into these we get Into no end of trouble. Somebody wants the
churches exempted, and let me just say this, that exempting the churches Is
simply a sentiment, there is nothing in It. I hope the delegates do not for
a moment think that I am opposed to churches; such Is not the cr.se. But
I say every church which receives a benefit from the community in which it
is situated ought to pay for that benefit. We have to protect them, supply
them with water, give them fire protection, etc., and why shouldn't they pay
for It? What reason Is there that they should not pay for it? Then we take
cemeteries. You say, oh. It is a terrible thing to tax a cemetery. Why
shouldn't they be taxed? What are they but money making institutions; It
is not simply that they want to bury you and me safely, biit they want to
make money, and why shouldn't they pay for it? Then, we com(> down to
our government buildings. You say, oh well now, you derive a benefit from
these buildings being in your midst. I do not know about the benefit, it is
just a question in my mind. But. I know this, we have to provide means of
protection from fire and give them police protection, and why should not the
government pay for it? They are just as much entitled to pay for it as 1
am to pay for my property, and I have to pay for it.

Now, come down to our municipal buildings, our schools and all other
buildings In connection with the municipality. Why shouldn't we know
exactly what things are costing? It Is only a matter of book-keeping, and
If it will help to do away with exemptions it will pay the municipalities to
take that matter up.

I expect I shall have something to say later on, and I now simply move
the adoption of this resolution, because I think it is the only safe course to
take, and the only way in which we may hope to carry anything safely

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — What will you do with government salaries?
Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — Make them pay on every dollar.

Ex-Akl. Marx, Chatham— It has bei'n a niystny to me, aud 1 cannot
find where the salaries of Federal officers are exempted? You cannot show
me any section In our municipal stattites which stales Federal officers shall
be exempted, but in spite of this they are never assessed.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I desire to point out to the delegates that it
may not have occurred {o them that the resolution says " all property " shall
pay taxes. Even the furniture in the house which is now is exempted shall
be taxed; everything that you can think of which is now exempted is to be
taxed in the future. I am not going to debate that question, because I have
sense enough to believe that no government will enact a law that will tax
a man's small income. But, as Alderman Carlyle has sjild, I am one who
believes somewhat in the adoption of a principle and let the government
weed out what is right? But, the question which should be considered
here by the deh'gates this afternoon is, what do we consider is right? Now,
I am somewhat of a radical in my idea of Lax exemption, and this is not the
first time I have raised my voice on the question, and I believe I expressed
myself in the Committee room, and I repeat it again, it may seem some-
what ridiculous, but I say that a man who works three hundred and thirteen
days in a year, even if he gets $2,000 a year, ought not to pay any taxes;
that man is a blessing to this community because he is industrious and
works, while the money he earns goes to help to support and maintain the
community, because we all know that one-half of the commimity is sup-
ported by the other half; and the man who is industrious and pays his taxes
supports the police force and the water works and so on, and I am radical
enough to believe that the fellow who won't work is the man that should
pay the tax. That is nonsense, some people will say, but there is just as
much sense in that as there is in most questions with regard to taxation.

I rose to aay that that resolution says " all," and I do not want any-
body to be deceived in the matter. We are to consider the question just as
It is printed on the paper. We are to tax wealth in every form, if it is only
$100 worth of furniture it is to be assessed for $100 and the owner is to pay
taxes on that $100.

Mayor Skinner, Kingston — It gives me a great deal of pleasue to be here
upon this occasion and, with the assistance of Aid. McKelvey, to represent
the City of Kingston, in a Convention which should have as important re-
sults as I trust and hope the results of the deliberations of this Convention
will be.

This matter has been, in one way and another, before" the Corporation of
the City of Kinj^ston for some years. I think on at least two occasions the
Corporation haj been asked to pass a resolution in conjunction with other

I 1 cannot
nnot show
[leers shaH

lies that it
jrty " shiill
npted shall
I'd is to be
luse I have
at will tax
m one who
government

considered
ight? Now,
Is is not the
I expressed
seem some-
and thirteen
I any taxes;
istrious and
naintain the
nity is sup-
Lys his taxes
[ am radical

that should
■e is just as

taxation.

want any-
stion just as
if it is only
lor is to pay

le to bo here

to represent

mportant re-

s Convention

orporation of
ccasions the
■n with other

municipalities whereby nil church property, to begin with, should be taxed,
aa well as other property, and that exemption from that should be removed.
I objected to that then, and I object to it now. At the present time the only
exemption in church property is of the actual churches themselves, and the
ground upon which they actually stand, and 1 think that no more stringent
regulathms should be made regarding churches than that.

The gentleman who has just spoken has remarked that he was a radlciil
somewhat in his views regarding these questions. In my opinion the whole
of the Committee on Resolutions who are in favor of this resolution are ex-
tremely radical also, far more radical than the members of this Convention
from Kingston, and far more radical than the corporation and citizens of
Kingston. I think the resolution In some respects Is very good, and the
report is very good. But T think the gentleman who moved the adoption of
the resolution was somewhat inconsistent in saying we should lay down a
principle jind then let the Parliament make what alterations it saw fit. My
opinion has been th.it this Convention was called for the purpose of arriving
at what the united opinions of the different municipalities In this Province
were regarding this subject. I think it would be very much better for us,
and the result would be far more direct if we went to the Parliament and,
■Instead of laying down a principle, simply told the government precisely
what we wanted. Do not go saying, gentlemen, we want this as a principle
and you can alter it as you see fit and as you think is best for us.
It seems to me it is inconsistent to put the thing in that way. This Con-
vention is called for the very purpose of telling Parliament what we un-
itedly think. And in order th;it there should be any beneficial results from
the deliberations of this Convention. I tliink it will be quite necess;'ry for
us to say exactly what we want, and that will be very much better than
laying down a principle. As far as the different items, such as cemeteries,
government buildings and so on, which would be affected at the present
time are concerned, I have not so much objection to any as to that regard-
ing church property, I think the law upon that subject should not bo
changed at this time, and I am therefore obliged to vote against this res(»lu-
tion. I am very sorry that this Committee on Resolutions did not take
some such steps as would actually be more on the give and take, instead
of bringing in a radical resolution; but as It is worded it simply means
8Uch a radical measure that only very radical persons can support it. -

Aid. Keating, St. Catharines — Mr. Chairman, the resolution of Aid.
Cnrlyle appears to me to be altogether too sweeping. I agree with my
friend, Mayor Skinner, with regard to what he h^s said as to exemption of
church property. But, there are other properties which, to my mind, it is
equally obectionable to tax. The public institutions of the country are not

equiilly distributed; some towns have a good miiny vjiluable institutions,
8<»mo that bring ii good deal of tr.ide to the place, and other places havt»
very few or none <if thes«' institutions. It is not necessary lo mention any,
but in a city that has a large number of those Government Institut'tons It
it is not fair to ask the Government for the privilege of taxing them. They
cerfainfy are worth all they cost them, and th<'re are a large number of
municipalities throughout the Province that would be glad to pay a bonus
to have those institutions without the privilege of taxing them. I do not
think it is right, therefore, to ask for the privilege of taxing Government
properties when there are pletiry ^of places which TTTmld be glad to get these'
public institutions witTiout thihlting of taxing them.

Then, with regard to cemeteries, I think it would be very foolish to tax
them; If we tax them, we might as well tax every monument in them. How
would it affect »tur own Municipality of St. Catharines? Our cemetery la cut-
side of the corporation, and the township would have the privilege of taxing
not only the cemetery, but every monument in that cemecery.

There are. other matters in this resolution which I think render it
altogether too sweeping, and I shall be obliged to vote against it.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — The Municipality 1 have the honor to represent
is the City of Chatham. As early as 1892 the Board of Trade and the Council of
Chatham considered the subject of abolishing exemptions, particularly exemp-
tions which, in Chatham, are more or less prevalent, exemptions on church
property, and I must vote for ;ibolishing such exemptions. I am fcomewha*;
(Surprised that one of the speakers here — I do not know the gentleman's
name — said we should leave the section with regard to the exemptitm of
churches in the statute book. Why the very Government has changed it.
In 1890, in Chapter 55 of the Statutes of Ontario, on page 132, you will find
the following: " Land on which a place of worship is erected, and land
used in connection with a place of worship, shall be liable to be assessed in
the same way and to the same extent as other land, for local improvements
hereafter made or to be made."

Why shouldn't we have the right now to ask the Government to go
a step farther? If the Government saw fit to pass a statute to tax land
connected with a church, for local improvemento, why colildn't they go one
step further? The Municipality I have the honor to represent has ten per
cent, of properties exempted. Our taxes have increased within twenty years
110 per cent., our population has increased about 20 or 22 per cent. Twenty
years ago »>verybody had his own lantern when he went about; now, we pay
about $5,000 a year for lighting the streets. Twenty years ago our Are de-

all
res
pre

Litutlons.

ct's have

t:on any,

utions It

iTi. They

umber of

M bonus

I do not

)vernmt'nt

gi't those'

ish to tax
em. How
ery la cut-
! of taxing

render it
t.

J represent

Council of

rly exemp-

on church

fcomewha":

rentleman's

emption of

chiinged it.

>u will find

, and land

assessed in

provements

nent to go
o tax li'nd
hey go one
las ten per
I'^enty years
It. Twenty
3W, we pay
3ur Are de-

purtmini cost us about a thousand dollars; now, it costs us $12,000. Do
not those churches and (he property in connection with them enjoy all
these privileges? Would they receive their fire insuranc*' at the rate they
do were it not for the improvements we have made? 1 claim we must avoid
deficits, and. in order to avoid this, we must increase our basis of assess-
ment; if we assess the 1350.000 more, which I claim is exempted now, we
correspondingly reduce our tax rate. Some people are a little delicate on
the question b«'cause it is a church. Some churches are paying their taxes
in spite of their immunity.

I might also state that in the City of Chatham, when a resolution
I was lirought in before th«' Board of Trade, there was one gentleman who
represonted an industrial institution which had been exempted' irom taxa-
tion for ten years, and the moment hf heard the argument that it was an
injustice to his neighbors, that his neighbors paid his taxes, he faui, no, I
do not want to be free from taxation. This is what 1 call liberality: this
is what I call justice. I do not wish to dwell any longer on the subject just
now; I may have something to say on the subject later on.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville— On behalf ol the City of Belleville I would
like to say a few words. When I came into this Convention and saw these
gentlemen assembled hen', I came to the conclusion they were a very prac-
tical business-like set of men; but I would come to the conclusion, if we
passed an omnibus resolution such as this before us, that we would not be
practical mm: and if we approached the Ontario Government, or the Do-
minion Government, with a resolution so indefinite .-s that which is l)efore
the house now. aie Govprnmeiit would simply bow us out politely and say
we had brought nothing practical before them.

To ask the Dominion Governmf^nt or the Ontario Government to per-
mit laws to be passed to enable municipalities to tiix municipal buildings
and Government buildings will simply be asking for a thing that you will
never get. I can see that If the City of Toronto should get power to tax
the Government buildings up in Queen's Park, that every municipality in
the Province of Ontario would have to contribute a certain amount to the
coffers of the City of Toronto, and I entirely object to the outside munici-
palities being called upon to contribute anything to the City of Toronto
beyond what Is at present contributed. You have the great advantage of
having these buildings in this City, which brings people to do business from
all parts of the Province. I think that the advantage yor enjoy in that
r.'spect and to that extent, should make you quite willing to give police
protection and lighting, and every other advantage that you can as a

municipality give to those Government buildings. The same would be true
in Ottawa, as the same condition of affairs exists there.

The City of Belleville is the County Town of the County of Hastings,
and we deem it a very great advantage to possess the municipal buildings
in our municipality; they bring whole section^s .f the County of Hastings,
which you know is a very large one. and people from all over the County
to do business in the City of Belleville, and we are very glad, indeed, to
contribute our share to the protection of and the various ways in which we
give advantage to those municipal buildings without asking permission to
tax them.

The amount of county buildings that are exempted in the City of Belle-
ville amount to only $75,000. and I consider we have an equal advantage to
that of taxation in having those municipal buildings there. It seems to me,
instead of bringing in a n>solution such as that which is before the house,
if we went through this official document which gives in detail the particu-
lar items that are exempted from taxation, and which is before every mem-
ber of the Convention, and came to a conclusion upon each one of them, some
to be retained, according to the vote of the Convention, and some to be ex-
empted, if we can bring exemption about, then we would be getting down
to practical business; but to take a resolution such as that would simply
indicate that this Convention has been called together and has not arrived
at any practical benefit. I can take the details given here and go over them,
and point out wherein I would not continue these exemptions, and point out
others whertin I would deem it wise to continue, and it seems to me I could
only give an intelligent vote, not in the form of an omnibus resolution, but
in pointing out where the particular grievance is. There must be grievances
here, and I believe there are grievances; and our business as a Convention
is to suggest the remedies for these. That is what I would like to see this
Convention take action upon, and not upon a resolution which is so indefi-
nite as that which is before the house.

Mayor Smyth. Lindsay — It was not understood when these resolutions
were referred to the Committee on Resolutions that they were to recom-
mend either for or against; but the question v,, were to consider was whe-
ther these were proper questions to bring before the Convention; also to
see whether a))y one resolution conflicted with any other resolution, and
if there were two of th(> same kind to throw one of them out, and refer to it
as being covered by the other. That is the reason we reported In the way in
which we did, and 1 think it was the dtity of the Committee so to do; and I
do not think it is worth while taking up the time in discussing the general
question. I would like to get an expression of opinion on th ■ nr four

\ *

i be true

Hastings,
buildings
Hastings,
County
ndeed, to
which we
aission to

7 of Belle-
mntago tu
>ms to me,
the house,
tie particu-
very mem-
hem, some
e to be ex-
iting down
luld simply
not arrived
over them,
d point out
me I could
olution, but
grievances
Convention
to see this
s so indefl-

resoUitions

to recom-
r was whe-
ion; also to
Dlution. and
(1 ri'fer to it

the way in
to do; and I

th«' general
-■- or four

items; but if Ihey ar«' going to be tal<en up seriatim ;is they are on the
printed list I will wait until they oome up.

Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — Alderman Carlyle has said, let us ask
plenty from the Government, and then let them give us what
they like. I think, gentlemen, we are just as well qualified to
decide what is for the l)enefit of this Province as the Government of
Ontario, or any other Government is. Those are my sentiments with
reference to that, and I supposed when we came here to-day that we were
going to taki' up this sheet showing the exemptions and discuss them, and
tell the Government the ones W(> thought ought to be struck out, and tell
them the property we think should not be exempted, and the property we
think ought to be t'xempted. If that resolution of Aid. Carlyle's is passed
or adopted by this Convention, it means that a man who earns $100 a
year shall pay an income tax. and the man that earns $1,000 or $10,000
•x year shall pay an income tax. What is the idea of the income tax? Was
is not to get at the income of the man who earns $10,000. It was never
intended for the man who earns simply enough to keep body and soul to-
gether. If that n'solution is passed, you ask the Government to put an
income tax upon every man who earns his dollar, whether his ssilary be little
or much, whether it is enough to keep his family or not. Surely that is
not the intention; surely this Convention does not want to ask the Govern-
ment of Ontario to enact such a law as that; and if we do not want that,
if that is not our belief, why pass this resolution; why go to the Govern-
ment with such a sweeping resolution as that, and ask them to abolish all
exemptions? We all know it is impracticable to do it; it is impracticable
to abolish exemptions; and it is asking the Government to do a thing we
know they will not do. Would it not he far better, as we are assembled
here together now, to put our energies forth and try to assist the Govern-
ment to do away with exemptions that we consider imjust and unfair ?
There is one exemption here — I do not know whether the gentlemen upon
this floor have noticed it or not — if an orphan asylum or an orphan's home
owns a property, and it is used for mercantile or manufacturing purposes,
and Is not used by them, that property is not taxed; the municipality can
collect no taxes from the property, although it is used for mechanical or
mercantile purposes. That never was intended; I do not think th«' Govern-
ment ever intended that should be the case. That is one thing that I think
might be remedied; and there are many others; but I don't think it is right,
Tind I don't think it would look well to the people of this Province if we
liere, the representatives of the different municipalities, should say to the
Government, we want you with one clean sweep to wipe out exemptions.

:■ i

'! j

• !:
■' (

■i!

; I

Mayor Radford. G:ill- As the representative from the Municipality o
the Town of Gait, 1 certainly say I cannot support the resolution. Th.
resolution is too sweeping, and I verily believe and agree with what lh^
Mayor of Helleville has said, that we would be unwise in presenting su< h
resolution as that to any G(.vernment, because they would not entertain
at all. I certainly believe there ought to be some exemptions; I believe tli
properties owned either by the Dominion or the Ontario Governmeni
should not be taxed. I certainly think, as the Mayor of Helleville has sail
that neither Toronto nor Ottawa should receive taxes from the whole Pn
vince of Ontario for what is their personal gain. I also think that m
County buildings should be exempt. The C«mnty buildings are not in tl:
Town of Gait in our County, they are held by Berlin. If we pay about on
eighth of the whole revenue to support those County buildings— our sh:i!
is one-eighth— I do not think that the 'i'own of Berlin should have the rigl
of taxing those buildings, and asking me Municipality of the Town of Gn
to contribute towards the tax. I think if Aid. Carlyle could amend li
resolution in such a way that it would not be so drastic, it would nK
with the approval o*. the gentlemen here; I think the majority are in fav
of certain restrictions. I believe there are ifar too many exemptions. I a
perfectly willing to see churches assessed. I go to church occasionally, ai
I am quite willing to pay my share towards the taxes of the church,
think there is no necessity for exempting churches at all. But, I veri
believe, we ought to go into this matter in a business-like way. A b;
resolution, such as we have before us, would not meet with the approval
am sure, of the delegates here, and. as has already been suggested, if wen
to take up these suggestions seriatim, I think this Convention could repi
whether we are in favor ot certain exemptions, and then, if we present a re;
lution to the Government from a large body of representatives such as
have here. I believe we would accomplish something. But I do not belli
we will accomplish anything whatever with the resolution we have before

Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — I have been pleased with the remark;^
the different gentlemen who have spoken. It appears to me we ought
has everything very definite when we are petitioning the Government
give us certain things. There is no use taking a request to them that co\
everything, and that has nothing definite in it to fall back upon; it sini
puts it into a political stripe, and they hold it in that way and give us
thing. T am strongly in favor of a certain amount of exemptions. I
not in favor of church exemptions; I believe they ought to set us a pati
and bo willing to pay for the benefitH they derive from the niunici|
ties in the way of lighting, streets, sidewalks and bo on.

Municipality «■
resolution. Tin
! with what tb'
resenting su' h

not entertain i
ns; I believe tli
■io Governmeni
iUoville has sm'u
1 the whole Pn
> think that ou
;s an' not in tl'
e pay about on
Idings— our shiu
lid have the rigl
the Town of Ga
could i'.mend li
ic. it would m(
ority aiv in fav
Bxemptions. I a

occasionally, tii
of the church,
ill. But, I veri
like way. A b;
th tho approval
uggested, if we a
>ntion could repi
f we present a reg
tatives such as
It I do not belle|

we have before i

Ith the remarks
o me we ought
the Government
to them that cov
ick upon; It sin.
,ay and give us
exemptions. 1
to set us a pati
•din the niuni*.i|
n.

In regard to the Government buildings, I cannot see that it would be
right or just lor us lo assess them, and other municipalities ihrougluiut the
Province help to pay lor the benefits that those cities that have the G«tv-
ernment buildings in derive from them. In regard to the municipal build-
ings. I do not see that it would be of any benefit to a municipality to assess
those buildings, taking it out of one pocket and putting it into the other,
and in that way only complicating matters for the municipality.

In regard to the income tax, I think with one of the other gentlemen
who has spoken, that the law never intended that the man earning from
one to two or three or four hundred dollars a year should pay taxes; I
think that income tax was put there tor the purpose of reaching men earn-
ing large salaries, and who had nothing invested in the municipality. A
great number of those men have a house or houses; they live up to the
amount they receive, and they are of very little benefit to the municipality,
as far as municipal benefit is concerned; but they draw their salaries.

I refer especially to Government officials; they are not even liable to
the law of our country for paying their just debts. '1 heir salaries are ex-
empt and they are not taxed for it, and the consequence is the municipali-
ties get nothing out of them.

To my mind, if we take up this resolution clause by clause and give
our opinion upon each clause as it comes up, we will act more intelligently
and come to a better conclusion, and we would ask the Goveinm«'nt to do
precisely what we ask them and not give it into their hands. I think if it
is taken up in that way it will be of much more benefit.

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— From the remarks I have heard made
by the different speakers concerning the resolution introduced by Aid. Car-
lyle, I must say that they will find it very difficult to arrive at any deci-
sion In the manner they propose going about it. I have heard two or three of
the gentlemen here talk about business, and the business way of going
about things at different times since this Convention started, and I must
say that the most unbusiness-like method of dealing with this matter is
the manner in which they propose dealing with it. It is either a principle,
or it is not a principle; if exemption is right in one case, it is right in an-
other. I see our friend, Mj.yor Skinner, of Kingston, is opposed to taxing
churches; I would imagin,> Irom that that he is a good churchman, and
probably attends very regularly, but this must be a sinner who comes fro-n
Chatham, because he is in favor of taxing the churches. If you allow these
Ideas to prevail, we will arrive at nothing. I think Alderman Carlyle's re-
solution is to the point, and strikes the matter at the fountain head. My

i \

I I

Iriend herl^ who wns chairman of that Committee, says he is in favor of
taxing a man with two or three hundred dollars' worth of propt'riy, al-
though he is not in lavor of taxing a man's salary, evvn if it is $4,000.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— 1 said 1 wasn't in favor of an income tax
in any manner or form.

Mayor ihompson, Owen Sound— I did not so understand it. 1 think wo
should deal with this as a principle and then attorwards, as Aid. Carly.o
has stated, when you go the Government, recommending this as a principlo,
you can be sure the Government will look after themselves so lar as thcr
properties are concerned, and they will look after their interests. But,
for this Convention to throw aside the great principle that has been intro-
duced by Aid. Carlyle and discussed, and allow each one to air his own pet
scheme at this C(mvention, would be a great mistake. I would like to see
the principle adopted, and then afterwards you can discuss these quesfions,
and then we will find to what extent the representatives present are in favor
of taxing all properties that are exempt.

Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — I would like it to be thoroughly understood
that the representatives from the City oi Hamilton are somewhat handi-
capped here; there was a resolution passed by our Council to have it sub-
mitted, and to th.at we are pledged, and to nothing further than that are
we pledged, but we can give our individual views.

I think in regiird to Aid. Carlyle's motion, that it is very far reaching,
in my mind .altogether too tar reaching; I do not know where it will end,
in fact. As I understand it, the reason we are called together on this occa-
sion is to discuss the question and consider whether it is advisable to take
away, or ask the Government to take away from the municipalities the
privilege which they now enjoy of exempting manufactories and things of
that kind. Of course, there are Government exemptions which we have no
power over, but about which the people, I think, ought to have something
to say.

Some of us differ ns to whether the municipalities should be deprived
of the right which I have spoken of. I feel a great deal of difndence in
regard to the matter. I do not care to ask, or to be one of the party to ask
the Government to withdraw powers which, in my humble judgment, belong
to the people. Some six or seven centuries ago our forefathers struggled
hard to get this very question placed in their own hands, and compelled
the signing of that Magna Charta, and we are now asking the Government
to withdraw that very privilege which our forefathers fought so hard to
maintain. I think it Is rather unwise for us to take a step of that kind.

in favor of
roperiy, al-

s $4,000.

income tax

I think wo
A.UI. Carly^e

a principlo,

lar as thi'ir
3rests. But,
\ been intro-

his own pet
i like to sei>
se quesfions,

are in favor

y understood

;what handi-

have it sub-

han that are

far reaching,
e it will end,
on this occa-
i sable to take
icipalitles the
and things of
h we have no
ive something

Id be deprived
if diffidence in
tie party to ask
igment, belong
hers struggled
and compelled
[le Government
;ht so hard to
p of that kind.

I I think the Government have exceedingly large powers already, and I think
* the people ought to hold all the power they have, although at the same time
I realize this, that there is a very great abuse at the present time of this
municipal exemption from taxation of various industries to the upbuilding of
'^ one and to the tea ring down of another municipality. That is not right. But
the question is whether we shall ask the Government to withdraw this privi-
lege from our hands. I think it would be unwise in one respect to do so. I
think if we could get legislation in some way by which this matter could
be submitted to the people it would be well; and I think some way could
be devised whereby this question could be submitted to the people as to
■whether vve should have total exemption or not.

' Now, with regard to church exemption, which has been spoken of here

very strongly this afternoon, I was rather in favor of exempting church
property, and the land which it immediately stands on, but my views have
undergone a change with regard to that matter, and I now fail to see why
churches should not pay their fair share of taxation as well as any other
corporation. I fail to see, sir, why the members ol any particular church
should object to paying their just quota of that taxation. I will guarantee
in almost any community that perhaps the majority of that community do
not belong or attend any of those churches, and I fail to see the justice of
compelling that major portion of the community to pay the taxes of that
church or of all churches, or assist in it. You might just as well say that
churches should contribute to the taxes of cricket grounds, baseball grounds
or anything of that kind. There is a certain portion of the community that
believe these things are absolutely necessary for recreative purposes, but,
nevertheless, they are taxed right up to the handle, generally, and I fail
to see why churches should not be taxed also. I think, Mr. Chairman, if it
is possible that a resolution should be put in defining a little more closely
and precisely just what we desire the Government to do, we must not lose
sight of this fact, that it is a very large and broad question, and 1 do not
think this Convention at this particular time is going to revolutionize the
whole question of tax exemption; I think we will have to make a stride
or two as well as we can just now, and. in the interim, before another Con-
vention is convened, see what we can do towards furthering the question in
that direction.

The Chairman — I hav*» allowed a good deal «f latitude in the discussion,
and there has been a considerable departure from the principle of the resolu-
tion, but inasmuch as it was a kindred topic, 1 allt»wed the discussion to go on,
but think probably it woukl be as well to coiifin<' ourselves to the principle of
the resolution, and not discuss the pros and cons la favor or against any

I-'

particular exemption. That might come up later on, and I would ask the
members of the Convention who wish to speak to bear this in mind. ,

J. W. McCulloch, East Toronto— I think that suggestion should be car-
ried out, because if this Convention does not make itself heard in that one
direction it will tail. The principle has not yet been established that all
property should pay taxes, or. in other words, that there should be no
exemptions. I think that is a principle that this Convention should lay
down, and then work out from that in a direction, as near as we can get
it, to what we want. . ^ ; ,

May(»r Johnson, Belleville — T move in amendment to the resolution be-
fore the Convention, seconded by Mayor Radford, of Gait, that the list of
exemptions now before the Conveiiti(»n be considered clause by clause, and
a vote be taken upon each one. I refer to this printed list of exemptions
which I presume every gentleman present has a copy of. ■, \

Aid. Parnell, Loudon — On behalf of the City of London, I suppose it
becomes a duty of mine to say something here to-day as to how the matter
is looked upon in that City. One thing I want to say is that it affords me
a very great deal of pleasure to be present at this Convention. When we
started out we seemed to get into something oi a jumble, but we got clear
of that tangle, and we have now got down to what I term solid business
argument, and in the discussion of this matter it has indeed been a plea-
sure to me to listen to the different arguments advanced. I have learned
something since I fiave been here which I think will be of practical benefit
to me in my municipal life if I should remain long in it.

This resolution which is now before the house is certainly a very broad
and sweeping resolution, one which, if carried, as one of the speakers has
put it, we would hardly know where it would end. But, there is a question
to be faced by all municipalities, no matter whether large or small, and
that is this, that there are a large number of exemptions now existing in
each of those municipalities which become a burden upon the rest of the
community, and the question before us here to-day is how can we best get
rid of them. It has been said by some one that we oinnot take this thing,
deal with it, and revolutionize it in a moment. I am somewhat of that idea
myself. Governments move slowly; they only move, at least, as fast as
public opinion will warrant. There is a great diversity of opinion as to the
exemptions contained in the Statute, as to which of them should be Topped
oft and which left on, if any, but of one thing I am convinced, and I believe
the majority of this (Vmvention are convinced, that something must be

ind(

m<i.

)uld ask the
1 mind.

ould be ear-
in that one
hod that all
hould be no
1 should lay
i we can get

esolution be-
lt the list of
y clause, and
if exemptions

I suppose it
iw the matter
it affords me
n. When we
we got clear
lolld business
been a plea-
have learned
vctical benefit

a very broad

speakers has

is a question

)r small, and

w existing in

le rest of the

a we best get

ke this thing,

t of that idea

;t. as fast as

lion as to the

uld be lopped

and I beli«'ve

ling must be

done to get rid of the evil in as large a measure as possible,
feature which I think should govern our action here to-day.

That if= the

My friend, Aid. Carlyle. here to my left, certainly has got very broad
and liberal views in'^regard to this matter, and I don't know, sir, if I were
put to the test, and asked the question, and had to answer it, whether I
would not have to coincide with him. But I am convinced from the temper
of this meeting that the members are not in favor i,l adopting that broad
and liberal resolution which he has moved, and which He hinted to me Tie
Is not wedded to, but only proposed it for the purpose of bringing the whole
matter prominently befort- the Convention. I say again, if we cannot adopt
this resolution, and the temper of the meeting seems to be that the mem-
bers do not feel disposed to Ireat and deal with this resolution and carry
it through, let us take up the amendment that has been proposed here
to-day, deal with that list seriatim, and endeavor to get all off that we can at
this session, and if we cannot get all that we want, perhaps at a future session
we can. One of the points which struck me, and w>ach I might say altered
my opinion to some extent, was the fact relative to the Government build-
ings. I came here io-day very largely of the mind that we ought to abolish
exemptions altogether, but when the point was brought out, and most forci-
bly to my mind, that the Larger cities, especially the Cities of Toronto and
.Ottawa, were enjoying the benefits conferred by the location of the Govern-
ment buildings in them, and the large amount of taxation which would be
derived, if assessed on the same lines as the biilance of the property in
Toronto and Ottawa would come out of the balance of the Province, it led
me to alter my mind somewhat. You must remember this, that a large
portion of our communities in this Province is composed of rural sections,
and, as such, they would pay the vast proportion of that tax. I do not
think we should act in any radical manner dn regard to them, and, as I said
before. I W(»nld not be prepared to-day to give s\ vote upon' that question
■When 1 consider that the cities rejip the benefit they do from the location
of those buildings in their particular localit'ies. It strikes me very forcibly
that London, indeed, would be glad to furnish all the necessary fire protec-
tion, lighting pnd so on.

Mayor .Johnson, Belleville— And give a bonus. (Laughter.)

Aid. Parnell, London — No, sir. But, T think they would be prepared
to give what I have said, and think they were getting off very lightly
Indeed if they could only have what the City of Toronto has got to-day.

Rat, as T said before, the question is, what shall we do about these
exemptions? I have here with me a tabulated statement of every exemp-
tion we have in the City of London; and it runs as follows:

ill!

Churches and lands |524,000

Public schools 252,000

Hospitals and public charities 130,600

Academies and universities 165,000

* City property ! 406,700

City and county jail 100,000

Exemptions under by-law given to manufacturers. Gentlemen, to ni
that is the vital point here to-day. Why should manufacturers go peddliii
their industries from one end of this Province to the other, asking hov
much will you give us and we will come and locate, setting one munici
pality against the other, and then takdng the very best offer they can get
Let each municipality be placed in the same category, that is, tha
there be no exemptions in that line at all, and then they will locate whti
it is in their interests to do so. ., /

Dominion Government land and buildings |419,000

Domin«Ion Government officials' salaries over the

$700, which is exempt 26,715

There was a remark passed here to-day which also struck me mos
forcibly, and that is, why should men whoso salaries we contribute to fror
all over the Dominion, and who very often get their salaries a good dca
easier than many of us, who have to toil for what we get, be exempt ii
any shape or form any more than other people ? (Applause.) Wli
should they be allowed to go free and have their salaries exempted fror
civil suit? I have sold articles to these men. and then I have been prevent?
from getting paid for them in a Court of law, and they have laughed me t
scorn. These are questions which should be considered. As I said, if w
cannot deal with them all at once, we can deal with them piecemeal.

From a small book conta'ining data, which I found in one of the dc^k
here, I notice that in the City of Toronto the property exempt is $23,313,57^
In the City of London it is $348,615. If you figure them out, you will fin
the total assessment in the City of Toronto — I sve it here — is $140,995,98
in the City of London the total is about $15,500,000; that is pretty near!
one-sixth of the whole rateable property exempt from taxation. It is ,1
appallinp: state of affairs, and one which, as I said before, leaves a voi
great burden to be borne by the balance of the community who are ik
exemBt.

As I said previously, I do not think the temper of the meetiing is i
favor of taking this resolution of Aid. Carlyle's, and I think it would I
unwise to do so, b« cause I doubt if the Government would treat it in tli

I ^

man
the
With
the

\. ]
Lon(
havi
far i
rlghi
is ai

in t

Who

But

men

in o

cert£

insti

'|-
prac

pedc
then
cate
that
loca
wer(
I so
for

bull

Fieal
the

not

..1524,000
. . 252,000
.. 130,600
.. 165.000
, .. 406,700
.. 100,000

Tentlemen. to ni
urers go peddliii
ther, asking hov

manner in which we desire they should; but I think we hud better take up
the amendment, and deal with such exemptions in the list as we can deal
with to-day, and then, if it is decided to hold an annual meeting, deal with
the balance at a future date.

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I would like to ask Aid. Parnell, of
London, one question. He claims that the City of Toronto is benefited by
having the Parliament Buildings here, and he is in favor of exemption, no
far as they are concerned, because ot that benefit. Why did they refuse the
right to any other City to exempt manufacturing and other institutions, if it
is an advantage to the City?

.$419,000

tie

26,715

tting one munici

ffer they can get There is a principle involved in it; if it is right in one case, it is right
■y, that is, tha j^^ ^^^^ other. He will say, possibly, that it is the people of the Province
will locate whor ^^^ would have to pay the taxes so far as these buildings are concerned.
• But I d(m't think that is an argument; I do not think it is a good argu-

ment. It is rather a principle, which is right or wrong, and, it it is right
in one case to give exemptions because it is an advantage to a city, it is
certainly right in another town to give exemption to 'any industry or any
Institution that is of advantage to that municipality.

struck me mos ;
ontribute to froi ■^^^- P<irnell, London — With regard to public buildings, they are of
'tries a eood dca Pl^sctical benefit to the community in which they are located. In the matter
>-et be exemot ii °^ exemptions to manufacturers, as I have already stated, manufacturers
Annlause ) Wii P®^^^6 it around, get all they can out of the municipalities and then throw
^s exempted fror ^^^^ *° ^^^ wind at the finish; whereas public buildings remain where lo-
ve been oreventp ^^t®*^' ^® ^ ^"^^' *^^ "11 *1°^^ ^^ come. Another speaker has remarked,
liuehed me t ^^^^ these public buildings draw to those particular places where they are

As I sTid if V ^o^^ted a very large amount of trade, making them the centre or hub as i;

5 „ ^.^..l were of the Province, and as such, they derive a very Large benefit, and. as

piecemeal.

I see it just now, the balance of the Province should not be obliged to pay
one of the de::^l< ier it. " ■ - .. . • "'

mpt is $23,313,57^
out, you will fin
i-e— is $140,995,98:
t is pretty nearl

Mayor Thompson. Owen Sound — You are in favor of exempting all public
buildings.

The Chairman — We are departing very far from the resolution.
Mease do not discuss the details of exemptions; they are not involved in
>re, leaves a ver ^ resolution,
nity who are iic

Aid. Duncan, Brantford — We might be here until doomsday, and try

t^ improve and try to pick out what should be and what should

the meeting is i ^^^ ^^ exempted, and we would not be any farther ahead. I

think it would

lid treat it in tb

tf| not see any other way for it but to come right down and

exempt nothing and tax everything. I think I should l)e endorse
In that hy the Municipality of Brantford. 'I'here are some that wouhl tax
ehurciiC's and some would not. How are you going to decide that. We hu\v
a JyOcal Legislature here, and we have men coming here from year to ye{;r
and they arc all trying to improve municipal taxation, and 1 do not tv
that they are making much improvement; and it would be just the sani
thing if we go to the Government and say why we want this aiid that dtuie
it would just be lost. If we say, we want all exemptions done away with, w.'
want no property exempt from taxation, we hav»' then a principle w«' can
act upon. I noticed years ago there were large delegations who came to:
the Government when it was proposed to tax the churches. That is a mere
matter of sentiment; it is not a matter of business, because the churches
can pay taxes as well as any other property.

Our friend from London says he would not tax properties that were of
bt'ueflt to the municipality. Why, the factories are of more benefit than
any publ'c or municipal buildings, and he would not tax Ihem. But our
friend from London is very strong against i-xemptions. 1 do not see how
we can do anything else but vote for the resolution.

Mr. Chairman, those are my feelings in regard to the matter, and I shall
certainly have to vote against the amendment and vote for Aid. Carlyle's
resolution.

The Chairman— I was going to point out to the Convention the effect
of this. If this amendment be passed in its present shape, it will simp y
set aside all the other resolutions which have been recommended for con-
sideration by the Committee on Resolutions, and it will then be my duty
as Chairman to ask you to consider, not the other resolutions which have
come from the Committee, but this detailed list of exemptions. Is it The
wish of the Convention that we should proceed in that way?

Mayor Johnson, Belleville— My amendment is not an amendment to
the whole series of resolutions; it is simply an amendment to the clause
that is now before the house. „ ;

The Chairman— If I am asked to rule on this question, I would rule
that this is not an amendment.

Mayor Radford, Gait— Might it not be madt an amendment by makirg
it read in this way, that wliereas this Convention endorses the principles
laid down in the resolution now before it, but considers the resolution too
drastic, be it therefoie resolved that we take up the list of exemptions
seriatim.

f n

d
o
t(

J'
fl
n
t(
e
v

i be endorscii

hilt would tax

thiit. Wi' hii\c

111 year to yeiu

1 1 do not tr

just the Bam

and that done

away with. w.

riiioiple wf (ai

s who cjime li

'I'hiit is a men'

je the churches

es that wore of
re benefit thanj
Ihem. But our
do not see how

tter, and I shall .|
r Aid. Carlyle'sJ

ntion the effect I
. it will simp y J
lended for con-
en be my duty |
CDS which have
ions. Is it the

amendment to
t to the c'auie

1, I would rule

lent by makirg
3 the principles
resolution too
of exemptions

Mayor .Fohnsnu, I3ollevillt'— I am quiti- willing that shonhl bo added to
tho amendment. . ., . ';

Mayor Smyth, Lindsay— If we vote that resolution of .Aid. Carlyiea
down it signifies that wo are not in lav^r of the genoral principle of non-
exoniption of taxation. I would niovo, seconded by Ex-Ald. Marx, of Cfial-
ham, that wo disapprove of the general principle of exemption from taxn-
lion as it is now embodied in the law of the land.

The Chairman — There is no desire on my pait to vote it down. ■

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — Theie is no desire on my p.irt to vote it
down; but if Aid. Carlyle's resolution is withdrawn or voted down, every
individual member hero has an opinion and he can put in a resolution, and
the Committi-e on Resolutions will have to make a report upon it. t

The Chairman- It has been moved by Mayor Smyth, Lindsay, s-econded
by Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham, that this Convention disapprove i»f the general
principle of exemption from taxation. , -

Mayor Johnson, Belloville— I do not see wherein that is an amend-
ment; it is simply repeating in other words w.i{it is already before the Con-
vention in the resolution by Aid. CarlyUr, it is a mere play upon words.
You have two direct issues with the main motion and my amendment.

The Chairman— I do not wish to be understood as having any undue

desire to withhold Mayor .lohnson's amendment, but I simply state if my

ruling as Chtiirman of this Convention is asked lor as to whether this is

Lan amendment to Aid. Carlyle's resolution, I would say it is not; but if the

Convention wishes to deal with it upon other lines —

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— I must insist upon your ruling. I think if we
have doubt about the matter being in order we should have your ruling.

The Chairman— I would rule that -it is out of order. Personally, I
would very much rather you would approach the question (luickly and
decide it without raising points of order; I think points of ordor are very
often technically right, but wrong as a matter of policy; and while this is
t^K-hnically out of order as an amendment I do think it would be
just as well if the Convention dealt with it at once in the con-
firmation of a principle and proceed to the next order of busi-
ness, and I think in doing that, although we might not de-ile
techmcal poFnts. we would at least have the great advantage of proceeding
expeditiously with our businoRS. Why not deal with these questions by a
vote of yea or nay. We are not bound by the strict laws of procedure in

any sense, and as we are business men and profess to deal wilh llie.e (hiugs
on business prlnclpU's, if It meets with you approval any "yes," and If it
does not say " no," and we will get through with our work with ten tinicj
the expedition we will If we proceed on technical lines.

Mayor Radford, Gait— In consideration of that Wf will withdraw the
amendment. :

•

The Chairman— Let me take the amendment which has been first placed
in my hands, and you can deal with it as you please?

The Secretary — You ruled that out of order.

The Chairman — I did, and I still think it is out of order.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I want to understand how we stand, exactly. In
the first place that could not be in order except as an amendment to my
resolution?

'lit
111

The Chairman — Certainly; that is so.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — Then we must have some rules to guide us in
our deliberations. It is all very well to say it is only a technical point, but
it is a matter of procedure.

The Secretary, Aid. Leslie, Toronto — I suppose that my position as
Secretary of this Convention will not debar me from expressing my views
as one who has been largely instrumental in convening this Convention. I
must say that I am not in accord with the sweeping resolution of Alderman
Carlyle. I am generally opposed to the principle of exemptions, but there
are exemptions to my mind that are perfectly just, perfectly right and per-
fectly legal; and I cannot support any resolution moved by any member of
this Convention which says that such a thinf? as tax exemption Is neither
right nor just. We have an exemption on income to the amount of $700;
that exemption on income in a good many cases, to my mind, is perfectly
right and just, and perfectly common sense.

I have in this Council Chamber on more than one occasion endeavored
to 'set a slight exemption on the value of cottages; that is, the poor man's
house.

We recognize the fact that there are exemptions of great magnitude,
especially in the City cf Toronto. We find that factories and business enter-
prises and the very rich people are exempted to very very large amounts, and
we recognize the fact that the small owner is not exempted in any way.
The man who has simply a little house and a lot valued at a thousand

the.e ihliiRS
i," and if il
:h ten tiiue-i

Ithdraw the

I first placed

exactly. In
Iment to my

guide us in
al point, but

position as
ig my views
mvention. I
of Alderman
IS, but there
ght and per-
f member of
m is neither
mnt of $700;
, is perfectly

1 endeavored
poor man's

t magnitude,
siness enter-
iimounts, and
in any way.
t a thousand

dollars Is aBsossed for the thousand dollars, but we find that a person in
the City of Toronto with a house and land valued nt $100,000 is only assessed
for about $40,000. thus giving exemption on $60,000 to the rich per8<m, while
the poor person 'is (axed to the full value. I say there Is a fair question for
discussion as to whether a poor man should not get an exemption say to the
amount of three or four hundred dollars on his house. If it is right to
exempt a man on his salary, it is right to exempt the poor man on his
cottage. These are questions that could be discussed if the matter was
taVen up clause by clause. I do not th'ii '. ..'d. Carlyle's rosolutioa will
carry to-day, because there are exemptions t.:... every one of us feels are
right. We have a list of all the exemptions that come under the siatutes,
some of them are under Dominion control and some under Provincial con-
trol, and some under municipal control; it is a pity our. solicitor Bad not
d4vided them into the tnree classes so that we would know to which govern-
ment we would have to go for redress. On the other hand, we recognize that
there are exemptions that are inexcusable. But this resolution to me seems
like going like a bull at a gate, or like a frenzied man at a stone wall; we
should go to the top of the wall and take out the easiest stones first; we
should not go to the Government and in a wholesale way ask them to take a
long list of exemptions and say they must wipe them out. The trouble we
found was this, we thought that any resolution coming from the City Council
would have very little effect, because it would be only the voice of the
Council or of the municipality. But we thought by getting representatives
from the municipalities all over the Province of Ontario, especially repre-
sentatives from the cities and towns where the exemptions were of necessity
larger than in the rural municipalities, that an expression of opinion from
these delegates from all over the Province of Ontario of necessity must have
far greater weight with the Government than an expression of opinion of
the Council of Toronto. ■

We have come here from all parts of Ontario with all kinds of ideas,
ideas of great divergence upon the different questions, and it appears to me
tha( if we simply discuss the bald question of exempting or not exempUug
everything we will never accomplish anything, because we are so widely
different in our opinions with regard to what should be and what should
not be exi-iipted. 1 think the only sensible way to do is to accept the
amendment, and take up the list of exemptions clause by clause and give our
opinions, without long arguments or long speeches. There are clause's
in that list that will not need any discussion at all; I think as soon as they
are read the voice of the Convention will be known. It is now twenty
minutes past four, and we have practically done nothing yet to-day; we have
not got a resolution on our books to take to the Government so far.

One gentleman snys that if we proceed in the way we are doing we will
not get half way through our business; I imagine we will have to meet five
years from now; we cannot expect to do it all to-day; this is simply the
initiation; I hope the Convention will adjourn to meet in some other muni-
cipality a year from now. and the fight that is begun to-day by the repre-
sentatives from all over Ontario will be doubled, and that we will still keep
up the fight until the concensus of opinion of the representatives from all
over the Province will be brought to the Government in such a forcible
manner that they will be obliged to abolish the exemptions that we think
should be abolished.

The Chairman — I have to declare that any motion which asks us to
take up seriatim this list is out of order, for the reason that the Convention
has already decided (hat it will take up the report clause by clause, and as
long as that resolution stands unrescinded it is the duty of this Convention
to proceed according to that resolution, and this amendment would introduce
an entirely new procedure.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — Is it possible for a member of this Coifven-
tion to do as a member of a municipal council would do. appeal from the
chair to the house? Because if so, I feel justified in so doing. I think the
chairman is an able man and is presiding with dignity, but I think he is
entirely mistaken in the view he is now promulgating, and I would ask this
Convention to say whether that amendment of mine is in order or not.

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — That is an extraordinary thing to do.
Here is a gentleman who has occupied the chair to-day and who has given
us a ruling on this matter, and I do not think it would be wise for this Con-
vention not to sustain that ruling.

The Chairman— My ruling has been appealed against, and, adopting the
custom usual in municipal councils, 1 think th(> vote ought to be taken.

The Chairman ^look the vote and declared the ruling of the chair
sustained. , „

The Chairman— May I ask you now to vote on the amendment that this
Convention disapproves, of the general principlt of ex' mption from taxation.
I would rule that this amendment is in order. ,. .., .,.,,,..,

" Aid. Emory, Hamll on— That would be much bett«'r if read, on genera!
principles we disjipprove of exempt ions.

Aid. McKelvoy, Kingston — 1 move in amendment to the ameudmrnl
seconded by Aid. Keating, of St. Catherines, that while this Convention is

doing we will
e to meet Ave

is simply the
lo other muni-

by the repre-
will still keep
itives from all
uch a forcible
th:it we think

ch asks us to
the Convention
clause, and as
his Convention
/ould introduce

tf this CoiTven-
ppeal from th»:i
g. I think the
: I think ho io
would ask this
•der or not.

ry thing to do.

who has given

se for this Con-

d, adopting the
be taken.

ig of the chair

dment that this
1 from taxation,

cad, on general

he ameudmrni
8 Convention ip

of tho opinion that the practice of exemption as now held to be legal is
unfair and unjust to the municipalities interested, at the same time we
cannot support a measure so sweeping as the resolution df Aid. Carlyle now
before the chair.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — That is pure negative, and not an amendment
to my resolution. I want your ruling, Mr. Chairman, on the point.

The Chairman— It affirms a positive principle, that the practice of exemp-
tion a? now held to be legal is unfair and unjust to the municipalities in-
terested. The resolution may be divided into two parts, a positive and a
negative.

The Chairman put the amendment to the amendment, which on a vote
having been taken was declared carried.

The Secretary read Clause No. 2 of the report as follows:

Moved by Aid. Carlyle. seconded by P. W. Robinson. Streetsvilla.

That it be an instruction to the Executive Committee appnimed by this
Convention to take such steps as is deemed necessary to have the two
following questions submitted to a vote of the persons qualified to vote at
mnmcipal elections, at the municipal electi(ms to be held in January next.

1. Are you in favor of the principle of assessing each individual accord-
ing to his or her actual worth in real and personal property?

2. Are you in favor of the principle of iibolishing all exemptions? .

And in the event of one or both of these questions being answered in
th(> nfflrmative by n majority of the electors in m majority of the munictipali-
ties where the questitms have been submitted, then such further steps shall
|e taken as the Committee deems necessary to secure legislation on these

lines. ■■■•"• -. - - ' :-

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— After the result of the former motion i do not
lee why the tim(> of the Convention lould be taken up with this one; T
think the better way would be to wituaraw it. I do not see the gi)od of it
fven if carried; we have nothing to submit to the people; we have not
Idopted the first resolution which was contemplated in that.

Aid. Parnell, London — I would tiuggest to Aid. Carlyle that this resoln-
l^on take precedence of the order of business for tMs afternoon: we would
■Re in w better position then \' «wiy whether it would be worth while
IHSsing it. J

Mr. Quiulnn, Port Hope — I do not think that should be done.

Miiyoi Barnes, Smith's Falls — I cannot see any reason why we shouli

befo
exen
Prov
was
matt
shall
but
for

The Convention agreed tliat Clause No. 2 of the report should be deal has
with at a later stage of the proceedings. arou

trad(
The Secretary read Clause 3 of the report as follows: ^kj

Ave,

pass that resolution; we have nothing to present. I do not see that we havt
any authority to place any question of that kind upon the ballot paper li
there is power given to us as a municipality. It states in that resolutioi
that we shall ask for a vote upon these questions at the next election; w
cannot get the power between now and then to do so.

Resolved, that as this Council (The Council of the City of Hamilton)
petitioned Ihe Ontario Logis' re at its Session early -in the present yea;
for the abolition of the power .vnich municipalities h.ave at present to gran

for 1
palit
gives

to manufacturing establishments exemption from taxation, this Counci

re-affirms its objection to the law allowing municipalities to grant sue! *^^

exemptions, and instructs the delegates to the Tax Exemption TJonvention 1

present a copy of this resolution to the Convention. " ™

ment

Aid. Emory, Hamilton, moved, seconded by Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton thlnl

the adoption of Clause No. 3 as passed by the Council of Hamilton. to co

that
Aid. Emory, Hamilton-Here is one place at any rate where I, as a r.(j„f,

representative from the City of Hamilton, am permitted to speak wiH .. ,

authority, because the City of Hamilton has given us that authority. Or • ,

other questions that come up, if T t? part in the discussion or vote (ir

questions it is on my own responsibil t v n 1 the municipality is not back o: j

me. In this the municipality is a; ;:■' jp k. I am sorry that Hamlltcui cons

occupies the unenviable position, I belli." of having petitioned the legiv ^^^ ]

lature some time ago to abolish the principle of bonusing or of allowini

municipalities to bonus manufacturing establishments, and the Legislatun ]

in their W'isdom passed a law forbidding municipalities bidding against eadi travi

other by granting bonuses? to manufacturing establishments, and then tin eenti

City of Hamilton, I believe, was the first municipality after that law w:i clpal

passed to ask for special legislation allowing them \o grant a bonus. I ma} be p

be wrong in this, but I think I am lg<ht. , . grea

"""•"""■" '" ^ taxa

But, we feel in Hamilton that i>iere Is a class of people that are beinf jjjjj

exempted from laxation, and the poor men are having to pay their taxes. 1' ^^ic

the rich man escapes the tax collector a certain amount of taxes has got t g^^Q,

be collected, and the poor man has to pay them. As I underaitand it. i q^jj

was a manufacturer in the town of Chatham who, when it was fairly placot ^^^^

done.

why we shovil
lee that we hav*

ballot paper li
I that resolutio.
lext election; w

before him ihat ho was robbing the poor man, would not accept of his
exemption; 1 think that man's name ought to be blazoned over all this .
Province of Ontario. He is the first iiianufactuj-er I ever heard tell of who
was not willing to take all the exemptiim he could get. We want this •
matter settled, so that Hamilton shall not bid against Toronto, and Toronto
shall not bid against St. Catharines, against London, or any other place,

but that the privilege w*' hav<' of exempting these concerns irom taxation
' ■ for all except school purposes shall be taken away from us, and then, as it

should be deal has been said by the Alderman from London, these parties will not go
around irom one end of this Province to the otljr intei-vlewing boards of
trade, and interviewing reception committees from the various city councils,
and seeing where they can get a free site, or exemption from taxation for
five, ten, fifteen or twenty years, and llien they want water and everything

ty of Hjvmiltoiii

for nothing. In this way they go irom place to place and see what munici-

the present yea;

present to gran

. . p gives these institutions advantage, as well as furnishing them with the

s to grant sucl

pality will give them the best advantages. We believe that the municipality
gives these institutions advantage, as well as furnishing them with the
opporttinity of manufacturing within their midst; we think that locating

3n XJonvention t

where they have the advantage of a large population is an advantage to

them, and we do not wish to compete for it. If a manufacturing establish-
ment feels that St. Catharines is a better place than Hamilton we do not
drew, Hamilton think it is fair that Hamilton should offer them something and induce them
amilton. to come to Hamilton when they oug>ht to go to St. Catherines; and we ask

that this Convention shall further the action that was taken by the City
e where I, as a council of Hamilton, and ask the Legislature to take away from municipali-
to speak wi^ii ^j^^ ^.j^.^ privilege ot granting exemptions, believing that it is another system

t aiithoritv. Or

of granting bonuses to establishments.

sion or vote or

y is not back o: Mr. Robertson, St. Catharines— I think we have now got what we may
that Hamlltor consider a perfectly clear cut resolution, and I believe myself it is one of
ioned the legi- ^|,^ principal reasons or causes why this Convention is being held to-day.
or of allowing *
the Legislatun I know as a matter of fact that many manufacturing instituticms who have

ng against eacli travelled over this country from one town to another have made false repre-
and then tin sentations; I have no hesitation in saying po: they represent to one muni-
r that law wa dpality that another was prepared to do so and so for them, what will you
1 bonus. I mii; b« prepared to do? "We have suffered from them in St. Catharines to a very
■; - ,. great extent. We have institutions there that have been exempt from

taxation for fifteen years, and within a very short time they have notified
' that are beiuf ^■^ q^^^ Council that unless they get another exemption they will go some-
their taxes. I' ^gj.,, ei^, i believe there is no point that this Convention cin affirm more
taxes has got i^ BtW)ngly, or that will have more effect, than ito state here as positively as we
nderstand it. i ^ ^j^^^^ ^^j^ jg ^^^ ^^ ^^^ clauses of exemptions that we wish to have
as fairly placcn gjQpppd. Notwithstanding that my friend thinks that our forefathers fought

some hiindri'clt> of yejirs ago for the Magna Charta, wg wish to have our
solves in some instances confined, we wish to have our liberty curtailed ii
S(»me instanct'S, because, I believe, it is not, in a great many instamc;
where by-laws of that kind are submitted to the people and are carried, li;
what I might call thi' proper wish of the people, but by the very stroiu
influence of two ur three good platform speakers and some other things tli;i
are perhaps not handled on the platform. I cer'tainly will support ihi
resolution, and I wish to emphasize ,as strongly as I possibly can that if wi
affirm this resolution this Convention will not have met in vain.

Aid. McAndrew (Haniiliton) — Being one of the Aldermen from the Cii;
of Hamilton I am somewhat interested in this, and I believe every meniln
of this Convention will vote for this resolution, for this is one of the deiii
fiients of this Province, and if we carry this resolution and carry also tli*
ofther resolution that Dominion Government officials shall pay an inconi
tax like other people and pay their just debts, and we accomplish no ninr
than that this year, this Convention has done a work, as my kind friend ha
said, that ought to be emblazoned on a banner. We, in Hamilton, belic\'
in exchanging ideas, and if we believe in it in Hamilton, we may hope th:i
you will believe likewise. ,

R The argument we use in the City of Hamilton now-a-days, and probabl
I use it more than any other memb<'r of the Council, is, what right, out o
twenty-one aldermen in the City Council, has a majority of eleven to m.ik
me pay some other man's tax? Eleven men will vote for a resolution
exempt some large industry and compel me, a poor Tian, to walk up o
the 14th day of September and help pay another man's taxes. I say the
have no right to do that. You may say these industries will go some pl.u
else. In the State of Michigan— I am very well informed on this subject-
there is no tax exemption. When a company wants to locate in the sd
burbs of a city in this Province they generally apply for tax exemptioi
and the men who have vacant land button-hole the aldermen vo get tli
scheme through the City Council, to increase th(> value of their own ir
perty. In Michigan they say, come down in our end of the town and lociii
your industry and we will go down in our pockets and each give you $1"
If you do it, because you increase the value of our property. Not so in tlii
Province. You go east and locate a factory, and ma.ke the men in the we?
pay for it, while it will (mly enhance the value of the property in the e if
We do not believe in that; we say, pay your own taxes; if you can get nv
foolish enough to pay your taxes get them to do it Individually, but d
not compel a man to pay your taxes who does not want to pay them.

I could tell you of tl e many tricks and many ways we have in Haiiii
ton as tax reformers. Some years ago we passed a by-law saying that n

pla

ex(

lou

be I

bei

arc

exp

for

mit

dre
sum

I 8i

thu

em I

wag

Uav

told

and

the

Hai

Har

east

dow

Thf

goii

said

wer

just

you

wel

tior

tndi

the
tali
reiK

Trs^SEasaBSHi

ish to have our
crty curtailed ii

ninny instanti';
d are carried, by

the vory stroni
other things t"ii;i
will support thi:
ly ciui that if w.

vain.

en from the Cii;
ve every menil)i:
oni' of the detri
id carry also th*
1 pay an inoonv
•omplish no mov
y kind friend ha
Hamilton, belicv
ve may hope th;i

ays. and probal)!
vhat right, out o
)f eleven to m:ik
)r a resolution
1, ito walk up
axes. I say the
ill go some pl.ii
on this subject-
ocate in the sii
ir tax exemptiot
3rmen io get tli
>f their own i r
town and Iocmi
ich give you $10
y. Not so in thi
men In the we?
perty in the eif
you can get nir
Ividnally. but d
to pay them.

e have in Haiiii:
IV saying that a

plant and machinery should be exempt. Wv thought that was a good move
In the right direction. We worked on that system for a lung time; we
exempted all plant and machinery wherever found, but after a while we
Jounfl our taxes were getting very small, and these people were reaping the
lienefit of it ; and we came to the conclusion that as lung as they reaped the
benefit of it they would never help to get the law amended. So we turned
around last year and moved in another direction. Now we say plant and
machinery bhall be exempt, but only when the goods manufactuied are
exported from the city. Just to show the kind ot people who generally apply
lor exemption, I hold in my hand the statement of the Assi^ssment Com-
missioner of the City of Hamilton; he was deputed to make a statement
Of the business that was exempt in the City of Hamilton.

The Eagle Knitting Company employs fifty men and boys, two hun-
dred women and girls; they pay in salaries $850 a week; $850 divided
among 250 employees is about $3.00 a week wages for men, boys and girls.
I Bald in the City Council, the factory that pays such large (?) wages as
that should pay their own taxes. The Hamilton Facing Mill Company
egaiploy the enormous number oi seven hands, and they pay $72 a week
ijUges, ,and they are exempted. When they came to Hamilton and asked to
l|||,ve their factory exempt from taxation they "rung a bell" <»n us. and
told us they were going to employ about 200 hands; they got the by-iaw
and they employ 'the number of seven. We are tired oi that in Hamilton.
We say we do not want one city competing against another city, but allow
the industry to settle in its natural location; we do not care if it goes to
Hamilton or goes to Toronto. There is a firm in Hamilton now called the
Hamilton and Toronto Sewer Pipe Co.; they have two factories, one in the
east and one in the west end. The factory in the west end was burned
down; there was an insurance of $15,000 on it, and they got their insurance.
T|iey had the audacity to come to the City Council and say. now, we are
fOing to enlarge our factory in the east end, exempt us from taxation. We
said, what are you going to do with the factory in thi' west end, whi-re you
were burned out? They said, we are not going to do anything with that
JUBt now. We said, we would be losers at both ends. You want to increase
your factory in the east, and you do not want us to tax you. They said,
well, if you don't, the City of Toronto will take us and give us an exemp-
tion. We said, all right, go to the City of Toronto if you want to. If an
tipflustry wants to leave a municipality tell them to go.

"n; Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I do not think it is necessary to prolong
t]^ discussion on this resolution, because I do not believe there is a represen-
^Ive here but what approves of this resolution. But I am surprised at the
ri^rt of Aid. McAndrew has given of the state of municipal aifjiirs in Hamil-

•

ton; it appears to me that a Council's municipal business must be done in ;in
extraordinary way that would grant exemption without any conditions
attached. I believe, though, that it is the opinion of every member of tTii^
Convention that this resolution is right. I do not know that it Is necessary
for me to air our municipal difficulties. I believe the principle Is rlglii
and I am prepared to support it.

Aid. Keating, St. Catharines — I think we ought to go a little fur-
ther than that. While it is stated here that those who are giving l)onus«>p
to manufacturers should be prohibited from doing so, yet we And at every
session of the Legislature some mundcipality applying' for special power.
and getting it, to encourage industries of that kind. I think there should
be a stop to that, and I think we ought to take some action to prevent the
Legislature granting such privileges any longer.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — I am opposed to the principle of bonuser
but I believe every municipality should have the right to detennine foi
itself how it will use its own money. In the City of Belleville we have
a vacant building that cost about $40,000, that had been a foundry; the
foundry was not successful, and the building lay idle for a number of years.
We h.ad the opportunity of bringing a large canning industry there if we
would grant the company exemption from taxation. We deemed it wise,
in order to have the building used, to grant exe^iptdon, and I do not think
we did wrong in doing so; and I believe if Belleville had the opportunity of
doing the same thing agtain and securing an industry such as that by mere
exemption from taxation, that we would do it. But the matter of bonusing
and inducing one industry that is already located to go to another munici
pality is a principle we can all vote against. I would like to know when
the City of Hamilton stands to-day; are they in favor of this resolution, or
in favor of what the Ontario Government did for them specially? I bo
lieve, Aid. Aid. McAndrew, that since you passed that resolution you went
to the Ontario Parliament and got them to pass u special resolution to over
ride what your own Council did?

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — That is so.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — Then I join with the other delegate in say-
ing you are an extraordinary people, and you ought to have some of the
delegates here to teach you. "

Aid. MAcndrew, Hamilton — When a man comes up here and says a muni-
cipality has a right to lo what they like with their own money, he ought
to go back and learn tl e first principles.

Mayor Smyth, Lindsny— T do not see why municipalities should not
have the privilege of exempting from taxation any industry to be estab-
lished in their midst for a certain number of years, and at the end of a
certain number of yi'ars that industry will be eligible to be taxed. The
establishment of an industry in a place brings in a large number of opera-
tives, and they are supported and are a benefit to the municipality, and
they pay taxes; otherwise the value of the property would remain as it
was. If by erecting a factory in any location it increases the value of pro-
perty, the municipality gets the advantage of the increased value by In-
creased taxation. So, I must object to those gentlemen who express them-
Belves ,as thinking this Convention is a unit on the matter. I agree with
the gentleman who has last spoken, and I am pleased to know I am not
alone on this question.

Mayor Radford, Gait — I will say I am heartily in sympathy with the
resolution. I think the Town of Gait occupies the unenviable position of
being the largest manufacturing centre in the Province of Ontario, and I
will say that we have never granted a bonus or exemption from taxation
until last year, when we were compelled to do it on account of the grasp-
ing tendency of a certain place. If such a resolution as this was passed,
and if our Government would stand by it, and not grant Hamilton or any
other municipality unfair advantages, I think w^e would have accomplished
a great deal of good by this Convention. ,^ ,; , , , , ., ,

I think it was only last year another institution or establishment left
our town. Why? One of our neighboring towns or villages offered them a
bonus of $10,000. Whilst we have been able to get along, and we have been
able to hold our own with any other municipality in the Province of On-
tario, we are in that happy position of saying that we never granted any
bonus or any exemption or passed any by-law for that purpose until last
year; and I think If each municipality had taken the same stand that wc
have done there would have b(>en no trouble, and there would not be the
grasping or stealing by one municipality from another. The only thing I
think you lack is that you require some Scotch principle to hold on, and
then if you had that you would not require to throw your substance away.

ielegate in say- •■ ^j^ Parnell, London— The statement has been made by gentlemen
ve some of tlic jj^^.^ ^y^^^^ ^^^^ were against bonusing, but in favor of exemption. I fail to
see the difference between bonusing and exempting property. I am not going
to enlarge upon It, but simply pass the remark over. Another statement Is
tkat Wellevllle was glad to get this canning factory because It gave work
and so forth. TKey would have us l>elieve that if that company had not got
that paltry exomi)tion they would never have started the canning factory.

t be done in ;iii
any condition.s
member of tills
; It is necessary
inclple Is rlglii

50 a little fui-
givlng bonusc?

re find at every
special power.

ik there should

I to prevent the

Iple of bonuses
) determine for
leville we have

a foundry; the
umber of years,
ttry there if we
ieeraed it wise,

I do not think
3 opportunity of
as that by mere
;ter of bonusing
another munlci-

to know wherf
is resolution, or
[>eclally? I be-

utlon you went
lolution to over

id says a muiii-
loney, he ought

'H'li

I certninly think that it is not tho mere exc^mption from taxation th it i-
tal<ing them thorc; it is the fact that that city is the best place to locate in
Rut they thought the City of Belleville was soft enough to give them th
exemption, and they got it. ., - -

Councillor I^aughton. Toronto Junction— I represent the Town of Torotur
Junction, and I know we have suffered a great deal from exemptions. Ttlfr.
is sc)i)Tely a month passes but what we have representatives of differpiv
institutions coming there and playing off other municipalities against ouis
and trying to find out which will give the most. We have never, since i
h:is been a town, given a bonus, but we have given exemptions and cheat
water rates; and that is practically a bonus. A bonus and an exemptioi
are the same. There is an institution that Is fitting up a. place there. Thy
did they not go to Toronto? Because about six out of eleven representa
tives in Toronto Junction voted to exempt them from taxes and give then
cheap water, which Tonmto refused to do. We are thus robbing Toronti
of that much industry. It is simply a matter of convenience for them,
have an interest in a large factory which is exempted, but. for all that
I would certainly vote and do all I could to do away with all exemption?

Cries of "Question, question." . ., .. .,-

The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, wa^
declared carried.

The Convention adjourned to meet at 10 o'clock Friday morning, Sep
tember 10th. < ^. .: <- .- . . - , . ..,..,._

-':'\ ■■■'■:■■■/'-■-'''''.■- y-:'^- :rl;^ Fuidav, Se)»tcinl)or lOtl;, lJ-i>7, 10 o'clock a.m.

The Chairman, Aid. Scott, called the Convention to order. , ,. ,,

The Chairman — The first matter for consideration this morning, as
y<>u are all aware, is the question of the permanency of this organization
Before we enter upon the discussion, I will take the liberty of saying one
thing to you: we have a great many matters to consider, matters of very
great importance, and I would ask the members of the Convention to re-
member two things: the first is to bo as pointed as pos&ible in discus-
sions, not taking up a very great deal of time, because sometimes long
speeches are nothing like as effective as very short ones; and when a poin
has been made by one speaker, may I suggest that there be no reiteratio
of it; a point made by one does just as well as if it were made by a dozen
if these two rules are observed, I think we will get through with our buslnes

taxation th it i.
lace to locate in
o give tht'm th

rown of ToroTitf
:emptions. ITlcr.
ives of differpiv
ies ngninst ours
e never, since i
Jtions and chcai
id an exemptioi

lace tht'ie.

'?. nv

even representa
s and give then
robbing Toronti
nee for them,
lut for all thai
I all exemption?

been taken, wa!

y morning, Sep

1() o'clock a. 11).
r.

lis morning, a;
lis organization
y of saying om
matters of very
invention to re
(■ible in discus^
sometimes loiij:
id when a poin
e no reiteratio
ade by a dozen
ith our buslnes

with greater dispatch. I am very anxious that we should get through with
the very important matters this morning, so that the fear some of the
members expressed yesterday that perhaps at an afternocm session, when
attendance might be slim, some important matters might be passed through
without receiving full and fair consideration, may not be realized.

Mayor Smyth, of Lindsay, moved, seconded by Aid. Dice, of Milton, and
resolved, that it is the opinion of this Convention that the formation of an
annual municipal convention is desirable.

Mayor Smyth, IJndsay — Mr. Chairman, I am not going to discuss the
desirability of the formation of an annual municipal convention. I *iind
there Is a very great diversity of opinion about it. and in order to expedite
matters I will just allow it U, be left to the wish of the Convenlloh. and
afterwards, if a resolution can be prepared and adopted, the committee
already appointed, or a special committee, can arrange the details of the
annual convention. I will just allude to one thing. A silmilar conveni~onis
proposed to be held in Columbus, Ohio, on the 28th of September— a Con-
venti(m of M.a.yors and Councilmen — to form an Annual Municipal organiza-
tion. The objects of this Columbus Convention just about «'xemplify my
idea of what the object of our proposed Annual C(mvention should be.

The Chairman stated the motion.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — There is just a question whether we s» ,mld
make this a Provincial or Dominion organization. I do not know whether
any of the meml>ers of the Convention ha.ve given the matter any thought:
but it does seem to me that we ought to take a wider range. However, I
do not want to take up time now on this motion, but I felt that T should
offer this suggestion to the meeting.

The Chairman— That might be a matter which the Committee to which
this will be referred could deal with, and on which they might bring in a
report.

The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, was
declared carried unanimously.

Moved by Councillor Southern, of Lindsay, seconded by Mayor Hewer,
of Guelph, that the resolution of Mayor Smyth, of Lindsay, be referred to
n Special Committee, to be composed of Mayor .Johnson, of T3ellevill°,
Mayor Smyth, of Lindsay, Alderman Parnell. o" London. Alderman Howard,
7of Guelph, and Mayor Thompson, of Owen Sound, to formulate rules for
conducting the business and jirranging all necessary details for the proper
organization of an Annual Municipal Conference, and report to this Conven-
tion at 2 o'clock p.m. to-day.

The Chairman stated the motion. ,; . • • ^

Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — It appears to me that the CommittCi'
ought to bt> larger on a question of this kind.

The Chairman — If you make the Committee too large you will take
away from this Convention a good deal of power that we desired to have
present when matters are being discussed; and I do not consider that the
arranging of some little matters connected with the organization is of sucli
very great importance that it should take up any very great lengi^: of timf,

Cries of "Question, question." .;

Mayor Elliott, Brantford — Before you put the question, Mr. Chairman,
it occurs to me it is unnecessary for this Convention to have rules to govern
it except parliamentary rules. I think it would be just as well if that reso-
lution were dropped altogether. If we have the Annual Convention let the
parliamentary rules govern; they are quite sufficient.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I think myself that the Committee on Resolu-
tions was simply appointed as a safeguard, and I do not think the mem-
bers of this Convention need be in the least alarmed about any radical
changes or recommendations being brought in by that Committee.

The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, was
declared carried.

Aid, Carlyle. Toronto — I move that liberty be granted to the Committee
on Resolutions to retire. r- : ; ''

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — The members of the Committee on Resolu-
tions would like to be present while the business of the Convention is going
on. I object to leaving the Convention and the Convention transacting
business while I am absent. As Chairman of the Committee on Resolutions
I will say that we will transact business at the proper time; but I do not
think it is fair to the municipalities we represent to ask us to retire and
have the Convention transact business in our absence.

Aid. Parnell, London — I do not think the members of the Convention
thoroughly understood the purport of the motion. As a matter of fact we
have before us now a very large report of the Committee on Resolutions,
and they should be here to defend or explain their report or otherwise; we
are wholly in ignorance of what line of thought the Committee applied to
the different resolutions, and we certainly will not be able to accomplish
anything during their absence which would be practicable and profitable. I
think they ought to remain.

nil

afl

The Chalrmnn — That Is my own feeling in the matter.

be Comniittet

you will take
jsired to have
aider that the
ion is of sucli
engt.: of time.

Mr. Chairman,
ules to govern
11 if that reso-
i^ention let the

ee on Resolu-
ink the mem-
t any radical
ittee,

en taken, was

he Committee

e on Resolu-

ition is going

transacting

Resolutions

jut I do not

retire and

Convention
jr of fact wo
Resolutions,
therwise; we
3e applied to
accomplish
profitable. I

Aid. T^cAndrew, Hamilton— We will present oar report after the ad-
journment. '- '■■::,■_-' ,, :-{iM^'\'- ■;,.'.>-;. v '• _-'" '!

The Chairman — Exception lias been taken to the Committe*- retiring,
and the suggestion has been made that they can consider the matters l)«'fnre
them immediately after the ndjoiirnment and make their report in the
afternoon. .. . ,, , , ^ ^ , . ,

Aid. Carlyle. Toronto — In my humble judgment it would crowd too
much work into the afternoon session if you do not allow that Committee to
deal with these resolutions now.

The Secretary — I would draw your attention to the fact that there is
nothing to go to that Committee.

The Chairman — If there is nothing for them to consider they need not

go out. ..•><:••■■■- '^-■'. r--.

' -^ ^ -''•■''-"' •^'■■'. ' ■'■'■' -'- Motions. ■; --J;:f< •' "• '" V,^^ ■:■■''''' '

Moved by Aid. M. Y. Keating. St. Catharines, seconded by Aid. Dona'd
Robertson, St. Catharines. ..,.,,,..

Whereas in the opinion of this Convention the granting of bonuses to
manufacturers by municipalities is detrimental to the best interests of the
country at large, therefore the Exectitive Committee appointed by this Con-
vention be instructed to memorialize the Government to secure the passage
of such legislation as will positively prohibit the granting of such bonuses.
and to prevent the passage of any acts granting special powers to any
municipality to grant such bonuses. •• : vt; -

Aid. Parnell, London — I think you ought to lay that on the table. You
are asking an i*lxecutive Committee to do something when you have no such
committee, and it has not yet been decided that we will have one.

The Chairm.aii — Would it not be just as well to have it come from the
Convention itself and not have a special committee.

Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — I move, it is not an amendment —

Mayor Elliott, Brantforfl — I rise to a point of order. We have one
-resolution before the chair. My worthy friend says he is not proposing an
amendment.

The Chairman — Unless it is an amendment to this resolution it is not
jjli order.

Aid. MoKelvey. Kingston— I make It ns nn jiujendm«>nt to that bocauac ii
takes up the whole question of fxeniption; that is only one clause.

The Chiiirmnn — When this Convention has decided upon the ditVerent
points let us present a memorial to the Government or Governments embody-
ing all our recommendiitiona, including this one. It seems to me we can do
It much more effectively in that way than by simply doing it piecemeal.

Aid. Keating. St. Catharines — Would it have to go to the spt'clal Com-
mittee on Resolutions? •

The Chairniiin — No, I don't think that is necessary. The Cunv.ntioii
reserves to itself the right to deal with resolutions as it pleases, and wht n
It pleases. When we have drawn our conclusions and the results of tht;
Convention have been obtained, then a resolution asking that those conclu-
sions be presented to the various governments or government as the case
may be. would be the final act oi this Convention. — Cries of " Hear, hear."
and " That's right."

On CO

of the Convention action upon this motion was deferred.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham moved, si'conded by Mr. Laughton, 'I'orcnto
Junction. That Section 3 ol the Cons(»lidated Assessment Act be abolished
and erased from the Statutes, which reads as follows:

The Secretary — Aid. Marx's resolution is .an amendment to the Assesb-
ment Act. . ■ ,.„ ..... .-.v..,*;-. .,;.^- -.;^,--^; .-'•- ■!.;:... ^r^ • ,- -^ ■

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — We should consider tax exemption only; that
was what was decided upon.

The Chairman — I would rule it out of order. - - ' ^ ^ ' ' : ■ ;

Mayor Elliott. Brantford— How can you rule it out of order when we
have not heard it. .. , «.>:.,,. ,

Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — I did not expect that we would confine our-
selves strictly to exemptions mentioned in the Statute; I think we should
be more broad. We will have time thds afternoon —

The Chairman — Your discussion is out of order.

The Chairman asked for a vote on the question of whether the scope of
llie Convention should be extended beyond dealing with exemptions only,
and on a vote having been taken declared that it was the wish of the Con-
vention not to extend the scope. ;

It bt'oanat' it

he (llfl'ereni
nts embody-
e we can do
cemt'Ul.

special Com-

Convintioii
8, and whi n
jstilts of th(!
hose couchi-

as the case
ili'ar, hear;

deferred.

oil, Toronto
be abolished

the Assoss-

m only; that

?r when we

Iconfine our-
we should

|the scope of
jtions only,
I of the Con-

Aid. Hannaford, Ifamillon I move, seconded by Aid. Finlay, llaniliton.
that this Ctinvention disapprove of exemptions on church properties. I put
It In this concise form because I wish to have the matter brought belore this
Convent i«»n and get an expression of opinion upon it.

Aid. McKelvey. Kingston— 1 b«'g to move, second, 'd by Mayor Skinner,
Kingston. That this Convention memoralize the Ontaric> Government to only
exempt from municipal tiixation the following: Churches, and the liuid con-
nected therewith; public schools, universities, public hospitals, asylums,
orphanages, mechanics' instituteK, (Government and municipal buildings
and property, poor houses, houses of industry; and that ail property except
goveinnient and municipal shall be liable to Local Improvement taxi'S.

That all persons earning $700 and over per annum be assessed for the
full amount of their incon.e. That the law be so amended that (lovernment
officials be placed in ♦ le same posiitlon as other wage earners. That a-
Committee be appoir .i. by this Convention to Interview Ihe Government
with a view to having the desired legislation passed.

Mr. W. A. Clarke, York Township — I move, seconded by Councillor Mc-
Culloch, East Toronto. That this Convention petition the Local Legislative
Assembly of this Province to so amend sub-section 3, section 7, Consolidated
Assessment Act, as to declare that every place of worship and lanvi used In
connection therewith, churchyard or burying ground, shall be exempt from
taxation for general purposes to the lollowing extent only; that Is to say, in
cities and towns to the amount of $16,000; In villages and townships to the
amount of $6,000.

Mayor Elliott. Brantford, moved, seconded by Aid. Parnell. London,
That when this Convention adjourns It shall meet again in Brantford on the
23rd September, 1898.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— Can we put resolutions in at a later stage
of the proceedings?

The Chairman— I do not think there will be any difficulty on that scorf .

What is the next order of business?

Action was deferred on Clause No. 2 of Report No. 1 of the Committee oa
Resolutions.

The Chairman read Clause No. 2 of the Report.

Aid. McAndrew. Hamilton — Mr. Chairman, as Chnirman of the Com-
xoittee on Resolutions I desire to point out what probably the members

would not notice in reading that resolution. This resolution calls upon
municipalities to take this vote. At the meeting of the Committee it was
pointed out that while one municipality might do it the next intervening
municipality would p-obably, from the complexion of the Council, roiuse to
do it; therefore you would not get a proper test of the case. Whi.e th
Committee thought this was a. proper matter to come before this Convention,
still we thought if those questions were to be presented to the people to
obtain a test on the exemption question, that the Ontario Government should
compel municipalities to take a plebiscite vote on the question. If it was left
optional with the municipalities to do it we wert' afraid that we would noi
get the voice of the people. ^ . v i v. ,v

Then again, the rejection by this Convention of the first resolution oi
Alderman Carlyle's yesterday practically- kills this resolution, because lie
asks here that two questions be submitted to the people which this Conven-
tion has practically decided against, by saying it was going too far. "

The point I wished to make was this, that it the delegates desired lo
have these questions submitted, and they think the best way to do it would
be through the Ontario Government, that resolution will have to be so
amended. \;'^,v' '"■"■». - '.'•'■-'.''" :'' .'

Reeve Robinson, Streetsvillt — Before any further discussion takes place
I would like to ask whether any papers have been sent in by any of tlu'
aldermen or delegat<3s to be read on the subject. v ; ;■;

The Chairman — None have been presented. I "

Aid. Carlyle — It is true, as the Chairman of the Committee has said
that the Resolutions Committee indeed thought it would be better to
memorialize the Ontario Government to take a plebiscite vote upon thes(
questions, but I for one am somewhat opposed to that course. To my minrt
the Government will at once tell any deputation v.aiting upon them for tha'
purpose, why don't you do this work yourselves; you have power to do ii
That would be the answer the Ontario Government would make to a deputii
tion waiting upon them. And a vote taken by municipalities would jus-
have the same results as a vote taken by the Government. In my humbl'
judgment, although that first resolution has not met with the approval of tlii^
Convention, my friend from Hamilton must bear in mind it was only de-
tented, I think, by three votes, so that really there is a large sentiment ii
this Convention which thinks pretty much as I think myself on the matt'M
Then again, I believe it is always a safe course to let the people have ih^
opportunity of pronouncing upon these questions; there Is nothing wrong ir

on calls upon
jmittoo it WiiH
xt intiTVoning
incil, rcluse to
se. While th
lis Convention,

the people to
irnment should
, If it was left

we would noi

It resolution of
>n, because lie
;h this Conveii-
ofar. '•

ates desired 10
to do it would
have to be su

ion takes place
by any of thf

littee has said
be better to
ote upon thest
To my minii
ti them for thai
power to do it
ke to a depuia
ties would jus'
In my humlil'
approval of this
t was only d^
;o sentiment ii
on the matt'M
people have th*^
thing wrong ii

it. If we had the endoraation of the people in the matter when we go before
ttie Government it would certainly strengthen us to a very great extent. It
■will put the municipalities to no expense; the vote can be taken at the
same time as the municipal elections are held, and I would strongly urge the
Convention to allow this matter to go. I did not come here expecting to
^rrjr everything that was proposed In the Convention, but I feel somewhat
rtrongly on this, even more strongly than I did on the first resolution, and
I would like to have an expression of opinion from the 'Citizens of this
Province as to how thoy stand on the matter of taxation. This matter has
been, to some extent, discussed by members of the House. I think the ex-
pressions of opinion that have been given by some of our ablest men on both
sides of the Houp.e are well within the recollection of every member of this
Convention. Judge Meredith said it was a matter that was worthy of con-
sideration for one entire session. It has bei^n spoken of without any doubt
that the matter of taxation in this Province was not as it ought to be. Now.
I think we ought to at least allow it to go to the people, and let them pro-
nounce upon it; it will cost nothing and it will do nobody any harm. Why
not let them have it?

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — In the City of Chatham we have for years
agitated the question of doing away with some exemptions and if possible
with all. My constituency suffers mostly or chiefly from exemptions of
churches and school houses or institutes which are simply commercial ven-
tures. I beg) to refer to a college in Chatham standing upon a piece of pro-
perty worth from $25,000 to $30,000, and it is free from taxation, while in
the same place a commercial school is not exempted. The chief object for
which my Council sent mo here was to press or impress upon the Convention
the necessity for assessing churches and such institutions as that of which
i have spoken now; these exemptions should be done away —

The Chairman — I think you are talking upon a subject which will come
up later when these resolutions are beloie the Convention. The question
is now, shall these two quc^stions be submitted to the people for their vote,
and not the propriety or impropriety of exempting churches.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — I wish to emphasize one point more; I heard
with pleasure that such a Convention as this was to be called; I think it is
very opportune. We are on the eve of an election in this Province, and woe
ta that party which does not fall in with us and give us justice by doing
away with exemptions.

Mayor .Johnson, Itelleville— I think the priiidplo of the plebisc^lte can
he applied on specific questions, but I think that on a matter so general ns

the questions before us it would be altogether too much !i matter d detail
t(» submit to the people. Now, the great principle of temperance was sub-
mitted to the people of this Province lor their opinion. In my judgmeni
that was a wise thing to do, but .vou see the outcome of it; the people order-
ed the Ontario Government to enact legislation to prevent the possibility of
liquor being sold or manufactured within the Province. That was undoubt-
edly the opinion of the electors of this Province. We have seen that the
Government has taken no steps to carry out the will of the people. And. I
am quite convinced that, in a matter of this kind, the Legislature is the pro-
per place to institute all reforms of this kind. I would object to submitting
matters of detail to the individual electors at the polls. I do not think thtn
would take that interest in it that would give tlie sound judgment that i-
required. It is in the legislative halls where these matters should be con-
sidered.

Aid. Finlay, Hamilton — I do not quite agree with the last speaker; I
think if there was a. little more power placed in the hands of the people it
would be a great deal better. If a plebiscite vote was to be taken on tlie
question over the whole Province, where all municipalities and all districts
were enabled to vote, I would be more iavorable towards supporting it. 1
think the majority of the members here are in favor of letting the people
assert whether they will have a thing or not, and I will support the ques-
tion as to whether the people will vote on it in January next.

Aid. Leslie, Toronto— I would like to point out that the very wording of
the i*esolution as it is would debar that, and I heartily concur with those who
are in favor (»f the change of asking the Government to submit all these
questions to the people; there are two questions submitted, if one or both
questions should be decided in the affirmative by a majority of the elector i
in a majority of the municipalities where it is submitted, that then tin
Government should take further steps. As haft been pointed out, if it U
left to the individual municipalities themselves, while one municipality
would submit the question three or four surrounding municipalities might
refuse, and it might only be submitted at the coming elections in a very
small number of th(> municipalities; then, if a majority of that small num-
ber carried it it would have no effect upon the Government; the only way in
which the Government will be affected will be when they see the majority
of the electors all over the Province of Ontario are In favor of any measure,
I think the proper way to do is to request the Provincial Government to su li-
mit these two questions in all the municipalities at the coming elections. I'
it is left to the municipalities themselves I am satisfied a great many of them
win not submit It. I am satisfied the Council of Toronto will submit it if
the opportunity is given, but I am also satisfied that a great many of the

natter oi detail
ranee was siib-
1 my judgment
le people order-
le possibility of
.t was undoubt-
i seen that the
people. And. I
ture is the pro-
!t to submitting

not think they
idgment that iif

should be con-

last speaker; I
of the people it
le taken on the
md all district?
upporting it. I
ting the people
pport the quos-
t.

rery wording of

with those who

ibmit all thest

if one or botli

of the elector I

that then tin

3d out, if it i>

municipality

ipalities might

ions in a very

[.at small nuni-

he only way in

e the majority

f any measure

rnment to suh-

g elections. If

t many of them

11 submit it if

t many of tin

riiral municipalities which are not so much interested in this question will
not submit the question at all. The number of municipalities that wouM
submit it would be so small it would have no effect upon the Government.
I think it should be placed upon the same basis as the temperance question,
dnd the Government themselves should submit it if they are satisfied to
get an opinion on those lines. I think if the motion is amended in that way
It would be well. , >

S Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — If the resolution is amended in that way.
there would be no hesitation on the part of this Convention in endorsing it.
As it now reads some of the municipalities would and others would not
submit it to the people, and you would not have the full expression of the
people of the Province. I hope Aid. Carlyle will amend it in that way.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — 1 have not the least hesitation in changing the
resolution to suit those who have spoken in that way, if they will guarantee
to me that the Government will submit it, but we are giving it out of ou#
own hands and submitting it to a body over which we have no direct con-
trol, when we can do it ourselves independently of them. That is where I
feel the difficulty lies. If I was sure the Government would comply with ouv
■wiehes in the matter and submit it I would have no hesitation in allowing
It to go to the Government, b\it who is to give me a guarantee that thq
Government will do it?

Mayor Johnson says it is all very well to submit a definite question like
the temperance question. Are not we making this a definite question? We
might have submitted the qnestiim of temperance in this way: shall we allow
beer to be used, or sometliing else of that kind; and it is jtist the same in
this niatter, we aie making it a definite question. An' you in favor of doing
away with all exemptions? Can my friend find anything more definite than
that? .■'...-.„■.,■ • ■.■;,■- . ',:..

Councillor I..aughton. Toronto .Tunction -It appears to me that if Aid.
Carlyle would make his re.solution a double barrelled one it might suit the
Convention, i would suggest that it be amended to read as follows: '"This
Convention would ask the Legislature to submit the question to the people
at the next municipal elections, and if they refuse or neglect to submit it
that this Convention will pledg»> themselves to use their endeavor to get it
Bubmitted in as many municipalities as practicable."

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — The mimicipality has got to do what the
^Unlario Government says; the Ontario Government will issue an order to
Ihe City Clerk that he Is to take a vote on this question, and the responsi-
bility is on the municipality. If I could guarantee to Aid. Carlyle that the

City of Hamilton would submit the questions that Aid. Carlyle wants suh-
raitted probably we would not need to submit it to the Ontario Government,
While we have some able men in favor of tax exemptions, yet, as the Council
is now constructed, speaking of Aid. Emory, I have a doubt whether, on a
resolution, they would take up a vote on the question in the City of Hamil-
ton. Hamilton is a manufacturing city, and no doubt it would have some
weight. If the Government says Hamilton has got to take the vote the ex-
pense will be on Hamilton. ■

Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — I do not see how you are going to compel the
people tp vote for exemption or non-exemption, whether the Ontario Govern-
ment submits it to the people or whether the municipalities do it. The
resolution as it is is the correct one, and if any municipality takes so little
interest in the exemption question as not to submit it to the people, then it
appears to me you will get a very small return. I believe in home rule.
Allow every municipality to itself take up the vote. It appears to me nearly
all the municipalities will take the vote.

Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — I would say that we have no guarantee
that the municipalities will take it up. Some seem to think that nearly all
the municipalities will take up a vote of that kind. I would just say from
my experience that rural districts will not take it up; they are not interested
as towns and cities are, and without there is something to back them to
make them believe they ought to do it they will not do it; they will simply
pass it by and not submit it to the people, and we will not get an expression
from the people. I should like to see the Government issue an order, and

then the municipalities will act.

'- ''\ - ,,.'■'■ '^" ' ■ , ■' -''} ' - - ' ' f

Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — I cannot see the propriety or necessity of sub-
mitting it to the people. Voting by the masses upon such a, question gener-
ally goes by default. Have the Provincial Government ever submitted
anything upon which they have passed a statute to the people? They did it
for the good of the people, and to the best of their knowledge and ability.
I am sent here to impress upon you and to press for the resolution, if
possible, that all exemptions shall be done away with; that special resolutions
should be sent to the L«'gislature, and if possible a deputation appointed to
wait upon them, I claim that the delegates here certainly represent the
majority of the municipalltler- in the Province, and if we here, in this Con-
vention, recommend to the Legislature the advisa.bility of a change in thi-
statutes regarding exemptions I believe they will listen to us, wh<'reas if
we leave it to a vote of the people— vox populi — I believe it would not meei
with success; and it would be too late to submit to the Legislature then, f
am Inclined to believe, speaking for my constituency, that we might submit

It
in
LeJ

lyle wants sub-
io Government.
, as the Council
whether, on a
City of Hamil-
»ulcl have some
he vote the ex-

r to compel tht
)ntario Govorn-
ies do it. The

takes so little
people, then it

in home rule,
rs to me nearly

3 no guarantee
that nearly all
just say from
not interested
back them to
ey will simply
an expression
m order, and

" ■. i'

ossity of sul)-

uestion genor-

ver submitted

They did it

o and ability.

rosolution, if

al resolutions

appointed to
represent the

in this Con-
liange in the
s, whereas if
>uld not meet
iture then. 1
[night submit

it to the people, and I doubt very much if they would take enough interest
in it to vote on it. I claim we should pass resolutions here and ask the
luegislature to act upon them.

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — In listening to the remarks of the
different speakers one would imagine that we required to act to-morrow.
This is the tirst meeting of this Convention which has bi'en brought about
by those who have taken an active interest in this question. I do not
imagine that we would be able to get the Ontario Legislature to submit a
plebiscite at the coming municipal elections; I think they would say. what
have you done yourselves? It would be quite reasonable for us to suggest that
thffi municipalities take the not*', as suggested in Aid. Carlyle's reBolution,
and if that is not sufficiently effective we can then fairly go to the Govern-
ment .and ask them to make it compulsory. I do not believe we are going
to achieve so much in the few hours we are sitting here yesterday and to-
toy; we are going to do something, but the great work of this Convention
on the subject of exemption must extend over a number of years. It is a
Ijreat question, and I think it would be well for the Convention to adopt
Alderman Carlyle's suggestion without .any further discussion; and if we
do not find that that is satisfactory then we can fairly appeal to the Govern-
ment and say we are not successful, we cannot get the municipalities to
submit this question in general and we ask you to do it for us, and that will
cover the ground. --»*1 '

Moved by Mayor Elliott, Brantford, seconded by Aid. Parnell, London,
in amendment, that this Convention appoint a Committee to wait upon the
Ontario Government and request that they submit at the next election in
the Province of Ontario the question, " Are you in favor of or opposed to
exemptions of any nature with the exception of Government institutions?"

Aid. Parnell, liOndon — In support of that resolution, I should like to say
I believe the Ontario Government would be the proper party to ask to sub-
Ulit this question; the reason for that is simply this, that they will be able
to control the whole of the constituencies, whereas any action taken in the
other direction, as has already been pointed out, would be simply of a
partial nature, because as is evidenced here to-day there are a very large
number of constituencies who are not even represented at this Convention;
^ere are other reasons why, which it is not necessary for me to go Into. I
^Ueve that this is the proper course to pursue. Then, if we cannot get the
Qovernment to take the matter up we will be able to act along the other
Hne.

Mayor Quinlan, Port Hope — It seems to me in submitting these two
qliiestions together it is asking us to vote for something that we practically

voted out yesterday, or it is asking us to put before the people something
hoping thiit they will Ciirry it against the wishes of this Convention. 1 think
there will be as little interest taken in this question as there was when the
temperance vote was taken; when it went to the country it was not such a
burning question, and the electors paid but very little attention to it, and wh ni
it came back to the Government they did not pay any attention at all to it.
Why should we practically annul the vote we took here yesterday by asking
the people of the Province to change it? I think there was a very decided
vote given against it j'esterday. It was fully explained here yesterday,
and we know that the masses of the people must be ignorant of what they
are voting on; and yet we are going to ask the people to vote on this que3-
ti(m. I think it is absurd to ask the people to do the business that we put
the Government in power to do. I think if we wish anything done tho
Government is the right party to ask to do it; they are put there for that
purpose. The people will take an interest in those whom they have sent
there, but they will take no interest whatever in tax exemptions, and if
they did vote upon it they would not vote intelligently.

Another thing, I do not see why we should be asked in this Convention
to vote for two clauses, some might vote for one clause and some for the
other, but we are asked in this Convention to vote for both together, and
we are going to ask the people to do the same thing. .if

Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest— It appears to me that we are submitting
this resolution too early in the proceedings of the Convention. I should
think it would be better to wait until we have decided what this Convention
is in favor of in regard to all the questions that have come before it, and
then decide whether it will be wise to ask the Ontario G(tvernment to submit
it. I think, with some of the gentlemen who have spoken, that if it was
submitted in January simply by the request of this Convention the rural
municipalities, as a general thing, would not take the question up, and then
the Government would be at a loss to know the feeling of the people and
could not act as the people as a whole would require. For that reason I
think it would be better for ua to decide on all the questions that are coming
up before this Convention, and after that is done to submit a resolution
asking the Ontario Government to submit the questions that they have de-
cided upon to the electorate of the country in tne elections of 1899. Four
months is too short a time to educate the people of this Province up to a
great question, as this certainly is; it is no small question.

I am in sympathy largely with the doing away of exemptions. I come
here to-day Intending to support the abolishment of exemptions as a general
thing, but I do think that we will defeat our own ends if we have the matter

submitted to the people simply by tlic request of this Convention alono. I
think the Government ought to deal with the matter, and then they will he
prepared, no doubt, to act upon the final decision arrived at by what the
people do. I would like to see Alderman Carlyle withdraw this resolution,
and then bring in a resolution asking the Government to submit the ques-
tion to the municipalities.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — In the matter of submitting it to the Government,
the trouble I see is that the Government will at tmce meet you with this ob-
jection; they will say to the deputation which waits upon them, you have the
power within yourstlves to submit this quetioii, why do you come to us?
There will be the whole trouble; the very first question put to you will be, why
don't you do it yourselves? 1 think it is simply a foolish thing lo go to the
Government and ask them to do what we have the power to do ourselves.
Then again, my friend from Hamilton says they have a great many interests
there and they perhaps could not csirry it. Mr. Chairman, if those interests
are against the City of Hamilton submitting it we will be in the same
position if the Government submits it. Mr. Chauman, U liiose interests
interests against it in the City of Hamilton in one way we will also have it
in the other way. 1 do hope that the Convention will allow this question to
go to the people; it ?§ a safe course, it is a courst that no reasonable man
can object to, and I think it is one that will meet with the approval of all
the constituencies.

Mayor Elliott, Brantford — One gentleman has referred to the fact that
four months would not be a sufficient time in which to educate the munici-
palities on this question. I think they have had forty years; that is what
gives rise to this Convention assembling here to-day, and there is no doubt,
if the local press take up this question, that by the next Ontario election the
people would be so full of education that they would be anxioui? to get the
bitUot and express their opinion through it. As it has been pointed out,
some municipalities may submit the question and some may not, and there-
fore the Government would not have, and the country would not bave. a
united opinion upon the question. There is only one way in my mind to
obtain this, and that is by the Government themselv.-s submitting it to
the people as a whole, and I therefore make the amendment. If we are
going to continue these discussions we have indulged in yesterday and this
morning we are never going to get to the point.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— I have no objection to going to the Governmtnt.
but I would like to see us submit it ourselves first; and then if we are defeat-
ed in it, if we do not get a fair expression of opinion, I have no objection to
going to the Government.

■j'

it-

Cries ot ■' Question, question."

t
Mayor Skinner. Kingston — I was very much struck with the last remark

of the Mayor of Brantford, in which he said if it is not submitted by the
Government some places only would vote upon it, and the Government
would not have the united opinion of the Province. You must know that the
places which are interested in the question will take the vote, and the places
which will not take the vote are those which do not care anything about it,
which shows that that part of the Province which will not vote is satisfied
with the law as it now stands; and if the municipalities are forced to vote
upon the question those places that are not interested cannot be expected
to give an intelUigent vote when they have not enough interest in it to take
the vote upon it. I am opposed to the principle of referendum because I
think it is contrary to the Government under which we live, I think this
question should be decided by the representatives of the people who are
appointed for the purpose of settling these very questions. I see no
objection to the main motion of Alderman Carlyle, because in that motion
he leaves it to the option of such places as wish to take the vote. Why
should these places which have no interest in these questions and are quite
satisfied with the law as it is be forced to give an opinion upon the subject
at all when they say by their inactivity that they do not wish to give an
opinion? For that reason I support the amendment, although I am opposed
to the general principle of referendum.

The Chairman — I have just received a communication from Alderman
Hallam, addressed to myself and the members or the Convention. I will ask
the Secretary to read it. It comes in, I think, opportunely at this time.

I The Secretary read the communication as follows: . .,.,.,

Toronto, September 10th, 1897.

Mr. Alderman Scott and Members of the Tax Exemption Convention.

Gentlemen — The question of tax exemption is one of great importance
to the taxpayer in every municipality, and should receive your earnest and
serious consideration from the broadest possible view that can be taken of
the statutory exemptions in this Province.

I am of opinion that all real property that receives benefits by the ex-
penditure of municipal taxes should bear its full share of this expenditure.
Municipal councils in cities, towns and villages, should be prevented from
granting bonuses to aid industries in any shape or form. This system is
wrong in prlncfpl*? and through a mistaken idea has spread; and one place

bids for business against another, offers land and buildings free of taxes, free
water and other privileges. This just means that the balance of the tax-
payers have to bear the burdens and pay the taxes of these exempted
manufacturers.

There Is no necessity for this, and manufacturing that is unable to pay
its taxes cannot succeed by being exempt or getting these special privileges,
and legislation should be obtained to deprive every municipality of the
power of granting bonuses to aid industries or of exempting them from
taxation, giving them free water or free land or any other privileges denied
to the rest of the taxpayers.

ex-
;ure.
rom
is
lace

The encouraging of manufacturers to locate in certain sections by such
means is vicious and contrary to good sound business principles, and I hope
that your Convention will not disperse without protesting against this vicious
principle, and should pass a strong resolution which should bf? forwarded to
the Premier of the Province asking him to pass such legislation as will ac-
complish this desired end.

I have taken a deep interest in tax exemption ever since 1872, and I have
been the means, with others, in limiting their operations.

I think the people are satisfied that the principle of tax exemption in
any shape or form is wrong, and it should be made a test question in the
next municipal election.

" Are you in favor of the abolition of tax exemption on real estate,
including land and its improvements, that is, houses?"

" Are you In favor of depriving every municipality of the power of
granting bonuses or aiding industries or manufacturers by exempting them
from taxation or giving them special privileges?"

Some such questions put before the people at the next general election.
I think, would meet with a hearty response in the a,ffirmative. , . r

Please excuse this letter and oblige,

Yours truly, ; :i'r'-':-M
John Hallam.

The Chariman— I had th:it read because it raises the question of the
submission of two questions at th(> municipal elections next January. That*
I suppose, should go to the Committee on Resolutions.

The Chairman put Mayor Elliott's amendment which, on a vote having
been taken, was declared lost.

The Chairman put the original resolution which, on a vote having been
taken, was declared carried.

The Chairman— It is not my business to say who shall or shall not
speak, or what he shall or shall not say so long as he speaks to the point.
We have a lot of important work to do, and if we discuss the next resolu-
tion to the same extent that we have those we have already had before us
we will not get through with one-tenth part of the work. I do not wish to
appear as wanting to restrict or restrain discussion, but many a time points
nre reiterated and reiterated and the time of the Convention taken up wheiii
we might be proceeding with business. I only refer to this so that in the
event of our not covering the ground mapped out my responsibility will be
discharged. I shall only allow one speech from each individual.

The Chairman read Clause 4. as follows: Moved by Mayor J. W. John-
son, Belleville, seconded by Aid. John Doyle, Belleville, that in the opinion
of this Convention the law which permits land held in cities In blocks of two
acres and over to be assessed as farm lands shouTcl be repealed. ^ ...

On motion Clause 4 of the report was imanimously adopted as read.

The Chairman read Clause 5 of the report as follows: Moved by P. Marx,
of Chatham, seconded by J. L. McCulloch, East Toronto, that clause 31 A. of
chap. 4S of 55 Victoria be amended by striking out the word " may " in the
2nd line thereof, and inserting the word "shall" in lieu thereof.

Aid. Parnell, London — Did not the Convention decide to deal with tax
exemption only?

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— It is tax exemption. Certainly, if everything
comes near to exemption that is one of the things. Thi& very law, if we
change the statute, will certainly do away with that pp.rt of the exemption.
I do not like these cast iron rules that we should only speak of exemptions
as they are. I think we should try to improve '.le statute as much as
possible. I know from experience that this is a great hindrance in our
statutes. ,■■;,.:',(: -,v,-.-;

The Chairman— We agreed only to deal with tax exemptions.

Ex-Ald. Marx withdrew his motion.

The Secretary read Clause 6 of the report as follows: Moved by Aid.

(jl

McAndrew, secondt-d by Aid. Hannalord, tliat a petition be presented to the
Parliament of Canada asking that all aalaries of offlclals employed under the
Dominion Government be made subject to be taxed by all municipalities In
the same manner as the salaries of other persons iu such municipalitifs.
and that such salaries be iilso made liable to attachment for debt to the
same extent as the salaries of other persons.

On moti(m Clause 6 of the report was adopted as read.

The Secretary read Clause 7 of the report jis follows:

July 16. 1897.

J. Blevins. Esq.. City Clerk Toronto.

Dear Sir— I am now instructed to reply to your circular of May 25th,
1897, and to say that the Council favor a Convention re Tax Exemptions,
provided the exemptions should not be evaded by municipalities who have
some pet scheme to bolster up. And if the exemptions are done away with
no special legislation should be parsed to favor any locality.

'" ' Yours very truly,

' '• " John Hogg."

The Secretary— The note written on the face of this is that the last
clause of this communication Is recommended for consideration. The last
clause is " if the exemptions are done away with no special legislation should
be passed to favor any locality."

On motion the last section of Cliiuse 7 was adopted as read. •

The Secretary read Clause 8 of the report as follows: Moved by Aid. John
Doyle, Belleville, seconded by Mayor J. W. Johnson. Belleville, That in the
opinion of this Conv(>nlion the decisions of the Court of Appeals against
Assessment should be final, except in matters involving a question of law.

The Secretary — 'This is not recommended for consideration by the Com-
mittee on Resolutions.

Aid. Doyle, Belleville — That does not prevent it from being discussed.

Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton, moved, seconded by Mayor Wright of St.
Thomas, That the action of the Committee on Resolutions in not recom-
mending Clause 8 for the consideration of the Convention be approved of.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — You should give us the privilege of stating
the reason why we think there should be no appeal to a Judge on matters

of fact in connection with an assessment. We have Buffered in Belleville
on that account, and for that reason we desire to get an expression of
opinion.

The Chairman— If this resolution is seconded it is properly before the
Convention.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— The reason why we thought it was wise
that the present system of appeal from the Court of Revision t(» a Judge
was good was because sometimes appeals are made and they are successful.
It would be better to have the law amended, and have the Judge as a per-
son to whom a final appeal could be made than to have the final place of
appeal taken away, and to have it left to the Court of Revision alone.

Aid. Parnell, London— The Convention a few moments ago decided that
we should deal with tax exemptions only, I believe we have within that
scope as much as we will accomplish to-day. There are many things that
might be said with regard to this, but I would sue^'-st that the mover of
that resolution withdraw it for the time being. There will be another ses-
sion of this Convention, and If the inover is not here somebody else will be
who can see that it is brought up. and the matter can be dealt with. There
is a great deal in it.

Aid. Doyle. Belleville — I withdraw the motion for the time being.

The Chairman read Clause No. 9 of the report as follows:

Moved by F. Marx, (vf Chatham, seconded by Councillor J. L. McCullOch.
of East Toronto, that Cause 42 of chap. 48, of 55 Vict, be amended so as to
make it compulsory for assessors to demand from every person assessable
for real or personal property a statement in writing signed by such person
(or by his agent, if the person himself is absent), containing the particulars
as required by said clause.

The Chairman — This clause of the report is not recommended for con-
sideration.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— Cannot that be considered?

The Chairman— You can move that the action of the Committee be or
be not approved of in not recommending it for consideration.

Is this a matter in regard to exemptions?
Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— No. I withdraw it.

The Chairman read Clause No. U) of thi« report as follows:

Moved by F. Marx. Chatham, seconded by .1. L. McCulloch, East To-
ronto, that the following words be added to clause 0, chap. 48, 55 Victorlu
(1892). viz.: "Except taxation on income, which shall be graded at the op-
tion of the Councils of Municipalities."

The Chairman— This clause is not recommended by the Committee for
consideration.

The Chairman read Clauses Nos. 11, 12. and 13, respectively. «as follows:

(No. 11)

Henry George Club (39 King Street West),

Toronto, August 26th.

Dear Mr Mayor: Re Municipal Tax Convention.

Being under the impression that a hearing would not be permitted to
others than duly appointed delegates to Convention, the Henry George
Club refrained from asking that its representative be allowed to address
the delegates. As the Sub-Committee in charge have decided to ask Con-
vention to hear outsiders, in behalf of the H. G. Club I am requested to ask
that the privilege of a hearing be permitted the writer, who has been dele-
gated to appear as their representative.

I remain respectfully yours,

" Geo. J. Hryan."

(No. 12)

John Blovlns. Esq.,

City Clerk, Toronto.

North Bay, .July i2th, 1897.

-i

Dear Sir. — Your letter re Exemption of Taxation was presented to Coun-
cil on the 9th inst., and I was instructed by resolurion to answer you that
the Council approve of your efforts to secure amendments to the Statute
doin?: away with tax exemptions, and are sorry they cannot send represen-
tatives to the Convention as requested.

Yours respectfully,

M. N. Flannery, City Clerk.

(No. 13)

John Blevins. Esq.,

City Clerk, Toronto.

Lindsay, Out., August, 23, liS97.

Dcr.r Sir.— Mysflf and Councillor Sootheran expect to attend tlic " Muni-
cipal Convention " on 9th and 10th proximo. If consistent with legulationa
I would like to introduce a proposition to organize an " Annual Conven-
tion " of Municipal Councillors similar to Boards of School Trustees, etc.
Ti'U to fifteen minutes will be ample time. Awaiting reply, I am,

Yours truly,

Mayor of Lind.say.

The Chairman read Clause No. 14 of the report as follows:

Single Tax Association.

Toronto, 6th April, 1897.
To hit Worship the Mayor,

City of Toronto.

Dear Sir: Re T;vx Exemptions.

On behalf of the Single Tax Association, I take the liberty of asking
some questions respecting the Convention which has been suggested by the
Council of this City.

The farmer is not tnxed on his crop or his live stock. Is there any in-
tention to ask for the abolition of this so-called exemption?

There is no assessment of household furniture, clothing, paintings,
books, etc. Is it proposed to aholish this exemption?

By sub-section 14, grain held for shipment or sale is exempt. Will this
be noticed?

Then again, do you think there will be any likelihood that any ob.iec-
tion will be riised to the exemption of ^700 from incomes? If a man puts
his capital in buildings or goods then he is taxed on the capital value; but if
he invests in ships or stocks then he is taxed only on the income; has any
proposal been mnde to remove this anomaly

There is an exemption for the merchant to the amount of his debts; but
the farmer whose farm is mortgaged to the hilt is taxed to the full. Will
any notice be taken of this?

So far as churches are concerned, there is an essential (Uffercnce be-
tween the value of the land and the value of the building. Tht« first v.-iluR
is caused by the community, while Uiat of the building is due to the con-
gregation who paid for it. That churches should pay taxes on the value
of the land is all right, but that they should be assessed on the building is
quite unjust. Will any attention be paid to this difference?

The land in the centre of Toronto is worth from ten to thirty or forty
thousand dollars per acre yearly. Let any man collect this rental tor the
bare fand and he will be under no necessity to put forth the slightest exer-
tion to do the first act for the maintenance of government. He is in reality
wholly exempt from taxation. Has any notice been taken of this, the
greatest of all exemptions, and will any move be made tc get is abolished?

I have the honor to be, Sir,

Your obedient servant,

" A. C. Thompson,"

Secretary.

The Chairman — Clause No. 14 is not recommended by the Cotumittee
on Resolutions for consideration, as the matter therein is covered by other
resolutions.

Mayor Elliott, Brantford, moved, seconded by Mayor Wright, of St.
Thomas, that the first report of the Committee on Resolutions as amendec^
by this Convention be adopted.

Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest—With your permission 1 would move,
seconded by Mayor Quinlan, of Port Hope, in amendment, that the word
" Provincial " be Included in that section of the report recommending the
abolishment of exemptions with regard to Government employees, and that
the report as so amended be adopted.

Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham—Where in the Statute is the salary ol Federal
officers so exempted?

The Secretary— It is claimed to be in the British North America Act.^

'■- The Chairman-The oucdtion as to where they are exempted and all
that does not afteot the consideration of *h\?. question. The fact remains
that they are practically exempted, whether legally or Illegally.

The Chairman stated the amendment.

Aid. Emory. Hamilton— I do not want this convention to show any

ignorance on these questions, and I understand from some of the delegates
that Provincial civil servants a. already taxed, and are already amenabli'
to the law for the payment of their debts. If that is the case, why put the
word " Provincial " in here.

Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest — If that is the case, I will be only too glad
to withdraw it.

The Chairman — I will ascertain as a matter of fact whether that is the
case, and if it is, then the amendment is not necessary and need not be
adopted by this Convention. / ■' . '

The Chairman put the motion to adopt the report as amended which,
on a vote having been taken, was declared carried.

Aid. McAndrews, Hamilton — I move, seconded by Alderman Hanna-
ford, that the Municipal Act be so amended as to tax mercantile goods
wherever found and under every condition.

Moved by Aid. Marx, Chatham, seconded by Councillor Laughton, To-
ronto Junction, that section 7 of sub-section 3, of the Consolidated Assess-
ment Act be abolished and erased from the Statutes, which reads as follows:

" Every place of worship and land used in connection therewith, church-
yard or burying ground. Provided, however, that land on which a place
of worship is erected, and land used in connection with a place of worship,
shall be liable to be assessed in the same way, and to the same extent as
other land, for local improvements hereafter made or to be made."

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I find that my own name is both on the C n-
mittee on Resolutions and the Special Committee for the purpose of report-
ing on the advisability of holding an Annual Convention. Now, we aie
both going to meet and I think it would be well that my name should be
taken oft the Special Committee, and some other one substituted for me. ,

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I would suggest that the Mayor of Hamilton
go on that Special Committee.

Aid. Parnell, London— There is this point to be considered, that some
person should be on that Committee who has the original idea of the Con-
vention at his fingers' ends, and as it emanates from Toronto, it should be
a Toronto man.

The Chairman— Put Aid. Leslie on. '

\ I

Mayor Colquhoun. Hamilton — I think the suggestion made by Aid. Par-
nell is a good one, that those who are cognizant of the work that has been
done should be on that Committee. I should be very happy to act, buf the
suggestion he has made is a good one.

,. Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — Aid. Leslie can go on to the Committee on Resolu-
tions, and I will stop on the Special Committee, or you can allow the Mayor
of Hamilton to take my place on the Committee on Resolutions.

'•: The Chairman— Is that the wish of the Convention, that Aid. Leslie be
appointed on that Committee.

: Cries of " Carried, carried." ■ '*

Aid. Kelvey, Kingston — I find I am in the same position as Aid. Car-
lyle, and I would suggest Mayor Skinner's name in place of mine on the
Special Committee.

By consent of the Convention, Mayor Skinner's name was substituted
for Aid. McKelvey's on the Special Committee.

On motion of Aid. McAndrew the Convention adjourned to meet at 2
o'clock p.m. ,

AFTERNOON SESSION.

2 o'clock p.m.

The Chairman called th(> Ctrnvt-ntion to order, and said, I have in my
hand the report of the Special Committee, which Is the next order of busi-
ness, and which I will ask the Secretary to read. ; ■ -

The Secretary read the report as follows:

The Special Committee appointed to consider the resolution of Mayor
Smyth, of Lindsay, re the organization of an Annual Municipal Conference,
begs leave to report as follows:

Resolved— .- - .

I. That the name of the proposed Annual Convention shall be, "The
Annual Conventhm of Representatives from the Municipalities of Ontario."

IT. That there shall be a President. Vice-President and Secretary.

III. That there ..^'.it ho an Executive Committee composed of the Presto

dent, Vice-President and five members, to be elected at the close of the
Convention ench year, who shall hold office until the conclusion of the pro-
ceedings ot the following meeting. ■■/:■. ; vt-^-f^.vJ- t;? >- ' ^ '• <; ' 'ii

IV. That ill! matters to be submitted at any Convention must be in the
hands ol the Secretary not less than one month before the annual meeting.

In other matters. Parliamentary procedure shall govern. - ,<■ :;

V. That Toronto be selected as the place of holding the annual
m(>etings. .. •

VI. That the time of meeting be the second week of tBe session of the
Ontario Legislature.

(Sd.) J. W. JOHNSON,

Cfiairman

Toronto. September 10. 1897. ,

On motion the report was received.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville— I move that the report be adopted.

Aid. Finlay. Hamilton — I do not think the annual meeting should be
continually held in Toronto, although the Legislative Assembly meet here;
I think the meeting place for this assembly should be distributed from one
city to another throughout the Province, and, if there are any legislative
matters to be brought by a Ccmimittee before the Legislattire, the Commit-
tee can go to Toronto and place the matter before the Legislature. I think
it would be better in the interests of this association to have the meetings
at different points throughout Ontario. I move an amendment to that effert.

Moved by Aid. Finlay, Hamilton, seconded by Aid. McAndrew. Hamil-
ton, that the annual meeting place be decided before the close of each
meeiting.

Mayor Johnson, B«'lleville — It is only fair to state that the prevailing
opinicm of the Committee was that it would be desirable to have its repre-
sentation as large as possible each year, and it was felt by the Committee
that could only be accomplished by making Toronto the meeting place; that
far more delegates would be likely to come to Toronto than to gc to any
other place — not that we are particularly in love with Toronto, but purely
as a matter of convenience, and with the object of obtaining as large a
representation as possible of the various municipalities throughout the Pro-
vince.

*' Aid. Keating, St. Catharines— I do not think I will be accused of trying
t(» favor Toronto, but I believe Toronto, as a place of meeting, will be more
acceptable to the great majority of the municipalities than any other place
that could be selected.

Aid. Finlay, Ham.ilton— I have no objection to Toronto being the annual
place of meeting, but I question very much whether this Convention has
any right to legislate iur any future Convention, and, even if we pass this
report, which says the annual meeting shall be heia in Toronto. I take it
the next Convention will have full power to say where they shall meet the
following year. The next exception I take is in regard to the time of the
meeting; I think it would be preferable to meet two weeks prior to the con-
vening of the Legislative Assembly, and decide upon the different points
we desire to bring before the Legislature and appoint a Committee to wait
upon that body when in session. If we wait until two weeks after they are
in session perhaps we may be too late, because, as you all know, there is
a certain time limit when matters of new business can be pre.sented to the
Legislature.

Aid. Parnell. London — In regard to the first point raised by my friend
the delegate from Hamilton, I think there is no doubt we would have to
favor Toronto; in that regard there is this point to be considered, the dele-
gates will come from all over the Province, and Toronto is very much more
central for the large majority of the different delegates that would come
than any other place that could be named. Supposing we selected London
— and I would very much like to see this Convention in London — or Belle-
ville, the trouble would be you would decrease your representation by the
extra cost which would have to be borne by the different municipalities,
because, as you aw all well aware, municipalities are noi^ given to throwing
money away, as a rule, and especially for a deputation; and that being the
case, it is well to keep down the expense as low ns possible, and that can
only be done by meeting in one central place.

My friend from Hamilton also says we should meet two weeks prior to
the meeting of the Legislature. If there is any legislation or proposed
legislation to be presented to the Legislature, and we are meeting tvo weeks
after the session has commenced, we would then be on the spot here
and would save expense; and, therefore, in my opinion, the time I'xcd
by the report for our meeting is the proper time, and I strongly urpe
the adoption of that report, first, on account of the saving of expense, the
probability of getting a larger representation in Toronto than elsewhere,
and the ease of access to the City of Toronto as compared with other points.
We should accept this report, as I believe it would be in the general inter-
ests of the movement which we have in hand.

Aid. McAnrlrew, Hamilton— The amendment does not say that Toronto
shall not be the meeting place; it merely provides that the meeting place
shall be choson annually, and you can Iceep on choosing Toronto year after
year, if you desire. It may be that Toronto may get tired of this Conven-
tion. Many of us may not be here next year, and in adopting this report
we may be legislating for another body of men, saying Toronto shall be
the meeting place for all time. The amendment merely provides that the
next meeting place shall be decided at each meeting. No doubt Toronto
is the proper meeting place, but that question should be settled annually.

Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — I heartily concur in the remarks of my frienci
from London, although I think Chatham would be the preferable place for
the annual meeting; Chatham is very centrally located. But Toronto should
be the meeting place because the Legislature meets here, and for that rea-
son Toronto is the best place for this Convention. I have much pleasure in
seconding the original motion.

The Chairman put the amendment which, on a vote having been taken,
was declared lost.

The Chairman put the motion to adopt the report which, on a vote hav-
ing been taken, was declared carried, and the veport adopted without
amendment. i . . , . ..■

The Secretary read the second report of the Committee on Kesolutions!

Aid. Parnell, London, moved, seconded by Mayor Johnson, Belleville,
that the report be received. Carried.

On motion it was resolved that the report be discussed clause by clause.

The Chairman — This morning the question was raised with regard to
the salaries of the civil servants of the Province of Ontario, and in conse-
quence I consulted our City Solicitor's Department on the subject, and
learned that at the present time the civil servants of Ontario are assessed
as any other persons in regard to their salaries. I am also informed that
their salaries are not liable to garnishment for debt. This is not by any
special legislation on the part of either the Province of Ontario or the Do-
minion Government, but comers down to us from a very old Common Law
principle established in England for the protection, it is said, of the efflci-
ency of the civil service, by which It is established that the salaries of
civil servants »hall not be liisble to garnishment. The resc'ution on tTlat
subject should be amended »o as to ask for legislation rendering their sal-
aries liable for garnishnienr. and that will be done.

That, I think, meets the situation. The salaries of the Federal offlceis
arc not subject to assessment, though they are subject to garnishment.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham- Did he tell you under what Statute the sal-
aries of Federal officers are not subject to taxation?

The Chairman— That is an old Common Tiaw decision which has been
in force for a very long time, and which has come down to us. -

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— For the information of all of us, I have tried
to find out in Ottawa under what law the salaries of the Federal officers
are exempted, there is no such law except what you, Mr. Chaiiman, have
mentioned. Three years ago the City of Ottawa tried to assess tho salaries
of the Federal officers, and the Government pays to-day to the City of
Ottawa an amount in lieu of that. The law is not good law. and ii^deed if
it is brought up in Court it will be upset. The Federal civil servants should
be assessed.

The Chairman— You are beginning to discuss a matter which is not
before the chair.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— No. I am only giving information to the Con-
vention. . ,j

The Chairman— The principle has been decided upon.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— I do hope that the resolution that was held over
in the morning will be perfectly proper now, because the information that
you have given to this Convention leads to the conclusion that they are
exempt from taxation, ^rf; .' ■

The Chairman — It was dealt with this morning; the only point was this,
that it was left to me to have it amended so as to include the Provincial
authorities if they were not already included; and I have said that they
are all already included in the matter of assefjsment, but they are not all
subject to garnishment. The resolution will be amended so as to aslc that
the salaries be rendered liable to garnishment.

Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton— That can be more readily got at by asking;
the Government to repeal that old clause.

The Chairman— It is a decision of the English Courts.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — You cannot repeal common law; you can
enact a law that will set aside common law.

The Chalrm.'in — That, is the purport of the resolution. ,, -,

Aid. Leslie, Toronto— I submit this is not ji question you can take up.
beojiuse the Convention has. I think, decided to confine Itself to tax exemp-
tions, and this subject you are discussing now is merely as to the ";visteucL'
of a procedure of the Courts to recover a debt. We have decided to have
annual Conventions to be called " Municipal Conventions," at which we will
take up the question of assessment, tax exemptions and every other phase
of municipal government, and I submit that that is the proper time aiid
place to bring this question up.

The Chairnan— This matter has already been dealt with, I was only
making an explanation for the information of the delegates and It is not
subject to discussion. All this discussion is out of order.

The Secretary read Clauses 1 and 2 of the report of the Committee on
Resolutions; and. on motion, clause 1 was adopted as read. .....

The Secretary read Clauses 3, 4 and 5 relative to Church exemptions.

The Chairman — You have several resolutions, some of which are much
more comprehensive Than the others; if the Convention were to adopt the
comprehensive ones it would include the others. I would suggest, tor the
expedition of matters, that you consider the most comprehensive one firct,
and if that is adopted, then you have the others that go before it and are
included in it. Woull that meet with your approval?

Aid. Leslie, Toronto — There is just this trouble, the comprehensi\e one
asks the Government to exempt churches, while No. li says this Convention
disapproves of church exemptions. ■ •' • ■ - ' •> '^';^;/.v

Aid. McKelvey. Kingston, moved, seconded by Mayor Smyth. Kingston,
that the more comprehensive resolution be taken up clause by clause, as
it takes up almost all the exemptions. "^ ^ ' - v ='^.rr^?i v

Aid. C.arlyle, Toronto — In any case, no matter what may be done with
Clause 5 you cannot ignore No. 3, you will have to deal with it, because it
is complete contradiction to No. 5. Why not take the resolutions as thi y
come from the Committee on Rest)lutions and deal with them?

I move that the resolutions be dealt with as they come from the C,>m-
mittee on Resolutions, and that each resolution be dealt with upon its own
merits. ■ '■ •

Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — That resolution might be proposed ac an
amendment to the first item it my resolution.

Aid. Parnoll, London-The mnjority of the m.-mbers of this Convfiition
will be leaving to-night; this question is onr which takrs a very wide scope,
covers a gre:it deal of piound. as is evidenced by the resolution now b.-foro
the chair, and it does seem to me I hat we have accomplished considerable
at this Convention if we did nothing more. On account of the broad and
wide nature of the question of Church taxation, it is a question to my
mind whether it would not be advisable that this matter should be de-
ferred to the next session of this Convent it)n, so that it could be thoroughly
thought out and considered in all its bearings. You have a resolution, sir,
before the chair placing exemptions only to a limited extent, and you have
other resolutions dealing with the entire matter, and with the diversity
of opinion expressed and the shortness ol time at our disposal, it seems to
me we can hardly deal with them to-day.

j
Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls, seconds Aid. Carlyle's amendment.

The Chairman put the amerdment which, on a vote having been taken,
was declared carried.

The Secretary read Resolution No. 3.

Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — There was considerable discussion yes-
terday, and as the time is drawing very near for this Convention to close
its session, I do not propose to enter upon any lengthy debate on the mat-
ter, especially as most of the members of the Convention present are pretty
well decided in their own minds as to how it should go. I merely wish to
say this, that there are churches whose members believe that churnii**
ought to pay their just quota of taxation, and 1 am proud to say that there
is a church in Toronto, and I do not know of one situated in any other
municipality, that does pay its quota of the taxation, and pays it annually,
and they pay it to the extent of a thousand dollars annually, and it is a
pretty influential body. I say that that shows us decidedly what are the
feelings of even the churches themselves. Although there is only one in
Toronto that is doing it, only one that is actually paying— and it has been
doing so for the past five or seven years — there are a number of others who
feel themselves just in the same direc;tion. I merely brought this resolu-
tion in to-day to take an expression of opinion from this Convention. I
move the adoption of clause 3 of the report.

Aid. Findlay, Hamilton— I might say, as seconder of this resolution, that
I think the majority of the churches situated in the municipality which I
represent are in favor of paying an annual tax; they have asserted their
willingness at all times to pay their just proportitm of the raxes of the

City, and huve stated so nt their annual meetings; and 1 think that ilie
majority of the churches in the City of Hamilton to-day are willing to pay
their taxes, and consequently I strongly support this motion.

Mayor Smyth. Lindsay— Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to the taxation of .
churches. 1 think church property should be exempt, lor many reasons.
If you commence to assess church properties it militates against the erec-
tion of the costly edifices which are such ornaments to our cities and towns;
they give a moral element and tone to our towns. - ;

If you take our Christian bodies out of our community what sort of
state would we have in our community?

I think they should be exempted. They give employment to artisans
and others in their erection, and for that reason alone they should be en-
couraged. It was mentioned yesterday that they get light, police and flie
pro*"ction. They are worth all that, and more too.

Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — I wish to state that In the Municipality which
I have the honor to represent, the majority of our churches are in favor of
paying taxes; and the subject has been threshed out for the last four or
five years, and they have passed resolutions to that effect, and I was sent
here by the City of Chatham to present that idea, and I shall do it to the
best of my ability. I do not see why a church should be exempted merely
because it is a church. The churches share in the protection given to other
properties in the mimicipality and should bear their share of the cost. If
any one of us built a house which would be an ornament to the municipality
would it be reasonable on that ground to ask it to be exempted from taxa-
tion? I think you will agree with me that it wonld be most unreasonable.

Aid. Emory, Hamilton — I entirely dissent from the principle of taxing
our churches; and I think I have as good a backing in the City of Hamilton,
and around our Board, for the position I take as the Aldermen have who take
the opposite view. I think I know as much about what the church people
of Hamilton want for themselves as any of the Aldermen around our alder-
manic board, for I do not think .any of them attend the churches more
regularly than I do myself. I cannot for the life of me see how we would
be benefited by taxing the churches; it is merely taking money out of one
pocket and putting it into the other, I know there is the argument— I have
had to face it before— tha,t Aid. Hannaford spoke of yesterday, that the
number of persons who do not go to church is greater than the number of
those who do go. But if the churches were assessed they would have to
pay taxes for those who do not attend as well as for those who do. I claim

that our churches have an elevating influence In our CDmmunity, and are
worth infinitely more to the community than the loss the community sus-
tains when It exempts them from any amount of taxation.

You cannot form any estimate of what a community would be without
these churches, unless you leave a community without them for a generation
or two generations. Civilization alone will not elevate the moral tone of the
community. No community was ever more civilized than the ancient
Grecian people, and no people was ever more corrupt in their moral lives. A
man may not believe In a church, but he believes in a Christian community,
and reaps the benefit by living in that community, and I contend he should
pay something for that benefit, and it does not cost him very much; it
wouldn't cost him very much more or very much less if a tax were put upon
the churches. There is a great deal of loose talk about churches being no
good, and tnat churches are not accomplishing the work they ought to
accomplish. But we are In a Christian community, we live In a Christian land,
a land that honors the Bible under the gracious reign of Queen Victoria,
who says the bulwark of English liberty is the Bible. Let us stand by our
guns and don't let us go into anarchistic, socialistic, or any other kind of
" Istic " like idea of taxing those elements in our community that make for
the moral welfare of every member of the community — : '

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I would just say that I am amazed at
the remarks of the gentleman who has just sat down in connection with the
taxation of churches. I don't know about the gentleman here representing
the church; he is evidently representing some sentiment that exists in his
city, and I suppose it would be for interested parties. The clergymen in
connection with our different denominations are not exempt. We commence
at the root of the matter, we commence at the men who give us the gospel,
and we tax their salaries. I think we tax them over a certain amount; I
think they are only exempt to a certain extent; and that we derive taxes

: from balance. There Is a church I would mention whose members I imagine
know what they are doing, in the town in which I live, pays its taxes as

' any other person pays theirs, although they are not called upon to do it, but
do it as a matter of principle. If you can establish that a community can
be benefited by an institution that refuses to pay its proper dues then 1 am
very much surprised at it indeed. I think when a church comes forward
and pays its obligations, or what it considers its just dues to the munici-
pality In which It is placed it is a great credit to that church: and to my
mind has a greater effect in elevating religion, and placing the church
element in a better condition in the community than any argument that my
friend from Hamilton has advanced this afternoon. If you admit that prin-
ciple as to churches we may go on and carry it to various other things. a.nd

iJ\

111

«t

the churches may take up any quantity ol land or property and it must be
exempt. And I say ii It is right to exempt |5,000 probably you will say it is
right, because it is a Christian organization or n church, to exempt 110.000
worth of land or 10.000 acres of land? The principle is wrong and the
original resolution introduced by Aid. Carlyle is right. I don't care whether
it is a church, a school, or a Parliament building, I claim they all ought to
pay their taxes the same as anybody else. And in municipal affairs in the
city in which the gentleman who has spoken in favor of church exemptions
lives, he must know thai in the water works department the city pays its
proportion, pays its proper taxes for the water which it obtains from that
department, and that the money pa.id therefor goes to the general exchequer.
We have our water works department, the corporation levy an assessment
to pay for the watering of the streets, to pay the debenture indebtedness,
to pay the inteest on these debi-nturcs, and that passes into the general fund.
We raise it by taking it out of the oiie pocket and putting it Into the other.
1 don't think there is any argument on the fact that it is taking money out
of the one and putting it into the other. It is a true principle, and I claim
churches ought to be taxed and everything else of that nature. • I do not care
whether it is a poor house or church or Parliament building, they have a
perfect right to pay their taxes on the value of their property.

institu

grount

not a

what

benevc

these

proves

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — Aid. Emory says that anything that is
elevating should not pay taxes. But I submit that anything that is elevating
should pay its way. That is in direct opposition to what Aid. Emory says;
I say that anything that is elevating should pay its way; every man in a.
community who pays one hundred cents on the dollar and endeavors to do
right i,s ;i <f(M)(l litizeii, and a churcli, if it is iloiiig ri<rlit autl lixing a.s an
exemple to the citizens to do good, should pay its way and not psk any
charitj . As to the argument of good to the community I ha\ e a few words
to say. I want to say that 1 go to church considerably but I am not growing
wings, I am not fit to fly away. I am a member of a church, but I am net
afraid, at least, to attack the present system of <,'xempting churches. I have
an extract in my hand and I will read it very plainly — it is very short— it
will cover more than all the speeches that any of the members in this organi-
zation could make in favor of taxing churches. It starts off with the argu-
ment that it is out of the hands of those who are opposed to taxing
churches, that anything that is good for the community should be taxed.
ThlF says: , li

" But the argument is not a convincing one. If it is a sound argument,
then it will have to be admitted that every institution which is a power for
good in the community should be exempted from taxation. The Y.M.C.A., th«
charitable institutions, St. Joseph's Hospital, every private educational

7 7

infitJtufion, should be exempt. And why not the cricket nnd basi'bnll
grounds, tho bowling greens, the 8k;iting and curling rinks too? Are they
not all nifanb of doing good, physical good, to those who use tham? And
what about the buildings occupied wholly or partiiilly by fraternal :iml
bi'ncvoleni societiis which exist for the purpose of doing good? Why ciliould
these be taxed and churches go untaxed? Clearly the argument is lealvy. It
proves to much.-

" Another argument in favor of Ihe exemption of church property from
taxation is that the great majority of the taxpayers are church members or
adherents, and would have to bear the burden of the new tax»'S in addl'ion
to those they already pay? But if church property were taxed the general
tax rate could Ix' lowered, and while the church-going taxpayer would have
to con'tribute more towards the funds of his church, he would save by the
lowering of the rate on his property.

" Looked at from the standpoint of strict justice, the exemption of church
property Is wrong, because it compels people who don't use churches lo
contribute to the support of churches against their will. They pay higher
taxes than they would have to pay 'f church-going fellow citizens did
not enjoy the privilege of holding and using untaxed property. These
people may be very wrong in neglecting the privilege of attending church.
There was a time in England when people who didn't go to church were fined
for staying away. But in these days every man has a legal right to stay
away from church if he wants to; yet the law which protects him in that
rig'it also compels him to contribute to the support of the churches, which IS
an Indirect way of fining him for not taking advantage of th*^ ' means of
grace.'

" Church exemption is a survival of the ancient alliance between chur h
and state. That allowance has always been an unholy one, the source of a
great host of unjust laws and even crimes. There is a growing feeling in
this province that the exemption of church property is unjust and inex-
pedient and contrary to the spirit of the times." : L ,, . ^..ii v : , ; , ^i-

This Is an editorial from one of the Hamilton daily newspapers ; it
proves conclusively to my mind that the churches should pay taxes. '

Mayor Skinner, Kingston — I think t'lat article which has been read is
very able in some respects, and is a very good reason why this resolution
should be defeated. I am sure that all the delegates who .are here to-day
felt as that was being read that they objected to the sentiments contained
in every paragraph of it. I believe In the stalwart remarks made by Aid.
Emory upon that subject. With regard to the remarks of the Mayor of

■U

Owen Sound, I still contond thai it is paying money out of one pocket into
the other, and it is quite unlike the case of a corporation taking taxes from
water consumors or any particular class in a city. Of course, in every city
the peoplo who pay the wator taxes are a section of the community or a
part of the city, but I am very thankful to say in a Christian community and
in the eye of the law every citizen is a Christian, and the fact that he 3oes
not attend church is no reason in the world why the churches should he
taxed. When our laws are founded (which I trust shall never be) upon
Atheism and not Christianity it will be quite time enough to even consider
the question of taxing churches. I quite agree that the very large quantity
of lands which were formerly exempt from taxation, which belonged to the
churches and which are now taxed, shouM be taxed, but I think the churches
themselves and the land upon which they actually stand should be exempt
as is now provided for in the statute. I think there is very little to complain
of even by those who are strongly in favor of the removal of tax exemptions
in this respect, and I think the very vast majority of the citizens of xTlis
Province simply regard it in that way. It was because there was so much
exemption and so much advantage given to particular branches of the church
that the law was changed to read as it does now. I believe that this Con-
vention will very strongly put its foot down upon making any greater
restriction than is now provided for by the statute. I cannot think of any-
thing further at this moment. I would like to take up, paragraph by para-
graph, the argument as printed in that extract from that Hamilton paper;
T think that, in itself, is quite enough to defeat this resolution almost iin-
animously.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — If there was nothing else than the fact that I
believe the influence of this Convention will have some weight on the mind
of his Worship the Mayor of Kingston, if there was no other thing achieved
than that, 1 think there would be something to rejoice in, because the
worthy Mayor from the Limestone City is apparently in favor of taxing'^'the
churches, he only wants to give them a partial exemption; now I have no
doubt, if this Convention is continued year after year, by and by we shall
have the Mayor of Kingston with us. and we will rejoice. We have heard
about the influence of the churches and the effect the taxing of them would
have, but my contention is that nothing can have an elevating Influence if
it doe.- not pay its just sK'are of the burdens laid upon \hc eommunity, and
I contend to-day that the fact of their not paying their just shaie of the
municipal burdens of the community in which they are placed detracts from
Ihelr influence. Then again, there is another aspect of this case, the injustice
to the churches themselves. Take the case of a large wealthy congregation,
and compare the extent of their exemption with that of a poor congregation

which has only, it may be a frame building to worship in. while the other
P'.'ople have their large stone building with all the decorations that ingpnuily
can devise, perhaps running the value up to seventy or eighty thousand
dollars which is all exempt; while the other church building is exempt (»nly
to the extent ol a tew hundred dollars; that, iu itselt, is an injustice.

Every member of this Convention Itnows exactly where I stand,
contend there should be no exemption.

;Mi;i-„

Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest — Th(> cities suffer more from exemptions
than the rural districts. In our town we have not vt>ry much to complain of
in th<' way of exemptions. At the same time I believe if it was left to ;i vot«
of the people that attend church in Mount Fcu'est. taking all the churches.
and speaking for the men who pay for the support of these churches, they
would vote to do away with exemptions. I believe the sense of the com-
munity is in favor of everything paying its own way. A church is a luxury.
I go to church because 1 leel th,at the church is a benefit to the community,
and 1 pay just as much as anybody towards the support of my church, but
at the same time 1 do not want to see the church I go to receive any favors
from the community as a whole. I say, let them pay their way the same as
I pay my way; and in the same way I say every business and every college
ought to pay its way; let every tub stand on its own bottom. If I go to a
church I would like to see my minister pay taxes; T would rather see him
pay the same rate when h«' is travelling on the railways than to get half
fare because he wears a white choker. Let us all pay; I believe it has a good
wholesome effect upim the community, and we will he elevating them by
making them pay their way, and it will have a much more elevating effect
on those who don't go to church. We should say we don't want any favor.-i
from anyone; we support that church because it is the right thing Lo do. I
believe if it was left to the church people of Ontario they wo ild ho in favor
of abolishing exemptions.

Mayor Barnes. Smith's Falls — I love the institution of God's cause, and
I love the church; I am a member of the church and I try to do all I can to
assist the church in its work. I believe it is my duty to do so. And I try
to live up to my profession day by day. but I do not believe in the exemption
of any building or in the exemption of churches, colleges, or of any of those
institutions that we have on the list. Notwithstanding that I am opposed
to church exemptions I believe in the influence of the church, and I believe
that the outside people of the world get as much benefit out of the church ns
those who are actual church memitrs lo "'•om the protection and influence
of the church, but at the same time I believe the church would have greater
Influence provided she took the proper stand and paid taxes ou her property.

■1

m^
m

paid her way as she went the same as any other individual. I have no sym-
pathy with the idea that because you belong to a Chi'istian church you should
be a pauper on any municipal corporation; neither should a minister who
receives a salary be a pauper on any railroad or any transportation company
or anything of that kind. Christianity, of all institutiims in the wor.d, oughi
to be an honest Institut'nn willing to pay its way and meet things on a
business basis. If the , ■ ches were run on business principles it would bo
better for them.

Councillor McCuUough, East Toronto— I think I seconded a resolution
for a limited exemption in the fear that this main motion wontun't carry,
but 1 am heartily in sympathy with the main motion; I would like to see tiie
broad principle laid down that all church property should be taxed. The last
speaker has said that he is a member oi a church;! Suppose almost everybody
here is a member of a church, by the gentlemanly way in which we uil talk,
nt any rate we have been to church some day or other or to Sunday School,
and I would just say here that the whole principle involved has been settled
over eighteen centuries ago by the great Master of the Church who sent
his servant P«'ter down to the sea to catch a fish, and from that fisliithey took
a coin wherewith to pay their taxes; and I think if we have to go into his-
tory and get a reason lor assessing and taxing the church we have got the
reason and authority there at the fountain head, for there the lounder of
the Christian religion and his followers paid their taxes and were not under
obligation to the state in any way.

I
Why should we not follow in the line of that example?

I am just as much in favor of a church as any one here; and I would do
anything for a church on principle, and I say that I am not violating that
principle in any way by standing out here £lnd voting and assisting to take
off the shackles on church property and let it stand on a basis which is per-
fectly firm and broad enough to withstand exemption or non-exemption.

The churches do not exist merely because they are exempt, but they will
exist after they are tax(>d and after they are taxed they will, in my opinion,
do m(»re good.

Aid. McKelvey, Kingston— 1 am one of the representatives of the great
I.lmestone City of Kingston.a city that hm turned out the greatest statesman
that Canada ever saw, and I am here to say that the people of Kingston
lire not in favor of taxing churches, and I want to tell you why. In the first
place I look upim churches as great educators, not only educators in the
original acceptation of the term, but they are educators in morals and in

i I

religion, and that is the reason why I say we shouldn't put n tax on insti-
tutions ot that kind.

It has been said here that the rich men spend their money in putting up
b(>autiful and costly edifice:^, while others are satisfied to worship in frame
structures of very little ^value. Some of our people think they are doing a
aervice to the Creator of the universe by spending their mcmety in putting
up beautiful edifices to His glory. I respect every man's opinion, and I thin!^
we ought to respect every man s opinion in that respect. I see difficulties in
the way of assessing churches equitably; if a number of people put $100,000
into a beautiful church how are you going to assess that church for
$100,000? It is not worth that, and it cannot possibly be assessed for that.
I say allow people to put up he; utiful churches. It is an old saying,
and I believe a true one, that a thin;--; of l)eauty is a joy for-
ever, and it is said that the poor people don't go to those
churches. But those ch'irches are free to everybody, and the poorest man
in the country can go iiito the most beautiful of church edifices we have got
and be just as welc(;me as he will be in his own pine church. I am speak-
ing of Kingstoi^; that is the way we do in Kingston; our churches are all
free, and I hop<' there is not a city in the Province in which the churclies
are not free; if there is a place where they are not free then I say they should
be free. It is said here we shouldn't compel all church people to contribute
in this respect towards education. Why do we compel people to pay towards
our public schools? What is the difference? You are educating the people
in religious things in the ore and in the other you are educating them to
enable them go' through the different walks of life. It is just as necessary
that a mon should have a religious training as that he should have a com-
mercial training or any other training.

Upon principle I am opposed to taxing anything that adds to the moral
and religious well being of the community.

Aid. Keating, St. Catharines — I believe that the exemption of the church
property and some other properti(>s is based on very s^ound principles. We
may belong to ditl'eient denoiiiiii.itions, l)iit I itelieve there aru very few-
people in the Province of Ontario that do not believe in the existence of a
Creator who made the Universe; and if that is so, and if there is any place
put up for His honor, to pay homage to him. I do not think it ought to be
taxed. There are several ways of paying homage to the Creator; in the
first place there are churches for the purpoRe of praise and honor, and thfn
there are orphan asylums and hospitals and places of that kind where his
poor lire taken care of. I believe any spot of ground that is devoted to such

R'2

a purpose by people who contribute voluntnrily townrds that purpose, no
matter what denomination, should be exempt from taxation.

Mayor Yelland, Pelerboro' — I havo no reason to say anything more than
has been said. I feel this way. when the thing has been well talked up it is
not necessary for me to say something that somebody else has aln'ady said,
and I do nol think I should have risen this time had it not been that some
of our brethren here rise and C(md«'mn the church and say it is not honest.
I do n<it want a slur like that thrown upon the church, for the church is
honest when it pays what is demanded of it. The Government does not
ask pay of the churches, therefore these gentlemen have no business to rise
and condemn the church and say that it is not honest. I expect the church
pays its honest debts just as much as these gentlemen do, or any other
gentlemen upon this floor, and I rise to say that I think they are decidedly
wrong in trying to throw this slur upon the church, of not being honest. I
feel like th.: two gentlemen who h,a.ve l.Tst spoken; I feel fhat I must ex-
press myself that I ;im not in favor of taxing the churches. I believe we all
get good from the church. If we do not we ought to. These gentlemen who
do not go to church and who say they should not be taxed because they do
not go, I say. would be better if they did go. There is no doubt about that.
And they have no right to complain if they do not go because they have the
privilege of going and getting the benefit of it as we have. I say that they
get the benefit of it by the example of those that do go; and a great many
of these gentlemen, if they would take the example from those that do go,
would be a great deal better men than they are. I claim that the church is
a light in this world to guide the people through it, and I think as these
gentlemen have said we get good from the church, and therefore I say we
should exempt them. ,

Mayor Thompson. Owen Sound — Who made the statement that the
churches were dishonest?

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — I think it is wise for this Convention, before
it adjourns, to discuss this matter calmly as it has been doing. We have
got down now to a subject that we will all be ouestioned about when we
go home, and I believe it is a subject that every man here should be on
record upon, and that is the reason why I want to take up a few minutes of
the time and give you my views.

It was stated here by my friend opposite that the church was a luxury.
T do not think it is, because 1 believe the worship of the Almighty is nol a
luxury, but something inherent as a diify tn the mind of every right thinking
m,an; and those churches give us the opportunity of declaring publicly that

we art" engnged in the Almighty's worship when wo go into that church. I
venture to say that every man in this room, and almost every man thai you
can conceive of wuo belongs To a Christian church, has inadf some siicrittce
in order to erect the building he worships in. Very 'likely many of us here
have gone deeply into our pockets, and we have gone upon notes that are
under discount at the bank, and upon mortgages, in order that we might
show by our example that we are in favor of establishing places for the
worship of the Almighty.

I belit ve the worship of the Almighty as carried on by our churches is
not a luxury, but is incumbent upon every right-thinking man Tn a. Christian
community.

You exempt public libraries. I have not heard a word said in this Con-
vention in regard to that being wrong. In the City of Hamilton I believe
they have an excellent public library that is sustained and willingly sustain-
ed by the people or it would not be sustained at all; you have a public
library in the City of Toronto that is a credit to this City and the Province;
In the City of Helleville. from which I come, we have a Mechanics' Institute
that we are proud of and which the people contribut(> willingly to. That is
simply in the line of educating the pi'ople, in the line of benefiting the
people. And the churches are precisely in the same position; and I hold it is
only right that wo should C(mtinue to exempt the churches from taxation as
we have done in the past. But, if any change at all were made t think the
suggestion that was made l)y a member of this Convention that we should
veUii o tlu'iii IVoiii taxfitiiiii up to a certain limit, and after that, if any
denomination desired simply for the sake of show to have a little higher
spire than its neighbor, they should l)e taxed, 'i'he limit which I think gome
one mentioned was $ifi,flOO. That would be a principle 1 could see my way
to vote for, but nevertheless the edifice and the ground upon which it stands.
In my humble opiuicm, should be exempt fiom taxation. The whole reason
for the demand for this change in the l;iw has arisen from the fact that sonuj
churches have gone out and seized and hold more land than they actually
require for church purposes. In the various denominations, which I will not
name, in this City and in various other cities throughout the Province, a
lot of churches are holding land that should belong to the people, and should
not Im' held by those churchea, and 1 fiay that I twit wcnild be a proper line
l!\ which to ask for legislation. 1-el the ground necessary for the church b(>
exempt from taxation. When a church goes beyond that it shows a disr.osi-
tion to gi-ab what does not belong to it. and in that event I would come down

jibillty of their obtaining that land

ipoi

puss I

and htdding it. These are my views, and I am glad that they are in harmony

with the views of my friends from Kingston. So you see the people from the
east are not in favor of changing the law in the radical way proposed hy
this Convention.

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I do not remember making uses of the
expression that the churches were a luxury.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville-I wrote it down here that the churches were
a luxury. I will apologize to Mayor Thompson if he did not say it.

Mayor Smith, Lindsay— When Alderman Dice rose to speak you called
him Mayor Smyth. I do not wish the reporters to take my views for his
or his views for mine. I think I can gise my views in a very general prin-
ciple that an exemption is equal to a bonus. In this country we do not ap-
prove of state aid, and therefore I am opposed to exemption of churches on
the broad principle that if it is right in one place it is right in the other.
I go to church, and ,as my friend from Hamilton says. I do not intend to be
ready to fly yet till I get through all I can do to help and encourage the
churches. I believe'in assisting them, and I know of churches and ministers
in our town, more than one, that have been accustomed to be exempted,
but who think that their properties should be put on the assessment roll and
assessed properly.

Aid. Doyh>, Pelleville— I wish to record my vote here and express my
opinions. I wish to be in line with the wise men from the east, and in full
sympathy with their opinions. While I pay a large amount of taxes In tho
city I belong to, I am willing to make that sacrii't^e lor the purpose of
exempting our churches, and I think we would be unwise and unjust at
present in taxing them. The churches were erected by subscriv>tlons gener-
ally with the full understanding that they were exempt In.m taxation and
would be. Tf you step In just now and tax the churches I do not think ir
would be just towards those who subscribed and made great (sacrifices for
that purpose. With regard to limiting the ground I would be willing !<» do
that decidedly, not to be extravagant, not to exempt Iheni In loo much, as
my friend the Mayor of "plleville, Mr. .lohnson, has already said. I would
be willing to do that, but I t'link I cannot record my vote just now in asking
the Legislature not to exempt churches from taxation.

Alii. Parnell, London— I do not intend to detain the repr(>sentatives very
long. Tn fact I have very few words to say in r 'gard to this matter. But
T wjtnt in spy as far as I person.illy am concerned that I feel that the prin-
ciple of exemptirirr the churches is wrong. But, while I say that I want to
say, as I said at the outset when I threw out the suggestion that the ques-

tion was a very brond one, and one which should be carefully considered, as
it touched tho best sentiments and fet-lings of so large a portion of the
citizens of this Province, I am still of the opinion that a mistake will be
made here to-day if we attempt to force the motion through as it is recorded,
nnd upon which liiir discussion is taking place. You intend at the next
election for municipal purposes, as I understand it. to ask certain questions
of the electors and you expect to get an answer. Now, as I said, this touches
the minds, hearts and sentiments, of a very large majority of the citizens of
this Province. They will have an opportunity of expressing their opinions
upon exemptions in particular or general, and this exemption in particular,
because, depend upon it, that will be one of the vital points discussed in the
asking of those questions and in the vote taken. Now, believing that I am
going to move the following resolution which I hope for the sake ot harmony
and for the sake of the general good you will carry here to-day; that is,
that all motions referring to church taxation be laid on the table pending the
vote of the people at the next municipal election; this is seconded by Mayor
Johnson, of Belleville. I do not think that the diversity of opinion here that
it would have the effect in the Legislature that we are so desirous of getting.

I-

Cries of " Question, question."

Aid. Hannaford. Hamilton — Lest it might be taken that I am one of the
great sinners in having the audacity to bring such a motion as this before
this august assembly, I hasten to say that I am a member of a church alEo,
notwithstanding the fiery remarks of my colleague from Hamilton. 1 think,
perhaps. I hr.ve been a member of a church as long as he has, but I do not
pretend for one moment that I am better than he. I omitted to make a state-
ment when speaking to the motion at the commencement to show the diver-
sity of opinion in this matter. I know there are ministers, one in particu'ar
in our own city, who objects to have his salary exempted from taxation,
and he has always done that since he lesided in the City of Hamilton, and
he has paid his just quota of taxation. That is just simply to show the
diversity of opinion, that it is not the sinners alone that think the church
ought to pay their taxes, but th«> church people themselves think so. Th(>re is
another question which I wish to mention. All denominations in Canada
fought and fought strenuously that the church and state should be divided,
and they fought until they accomplished it. Now. this is just as much
applicable as that was, in my humble judgment. I think the church to-day
should pay their just quota of taxation equally as well as that the church
should be disestablished altogether from the state. Our brother here at the
right distinctly stated that the church was deeldediy honest; Implying that
some member on the floor had made the statement that the church was

dishonest; he also suid that the church was a bright, and shining light, which
I believe it is, but f wish to call his attention to this fact. Ho is a humble
follower of the meek ajid lowly man of Galilee, and when the man of Galilee
was approached and askt'd: " Good Master, are we to pay tribute?" the good
Master said, " Render unto Cseser the things that ,are Csesers." Now, the
Master there acknowledged that the state was entitled to somt'thing. But
to-day we have gone beyond that, and the church distinctly says, or has said
up to the present time — I hope it will soon be stopped — we do not owe the
state .anything. I claim they do owe the state something, and I claim on
these grounds that they should willingly pay their taxes; and I believe if the
vote was submitted to the churches of the Dominion, or, at least, the Pro-
vince, they would carry it by no small majority. .

The Chairman — I put Alderman Parnell's amendment, which, on a vote
having been taken, was declared carried amid applause.

Ex-AUl. Marx, Chatham — Would it be against the rule to have the name;*
down and know how the different delegates voted?

The Chairman — It is too late now; we haven't the means of taking the
yeas and nays.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville — This is not in question.

The Chairman — That disposes of those resolutions so far as they apply
to church exemptions. Is it the wish ot the Convention that all the matters
included in these resolutions shall be postponed or laid on the table, because
you have by resolution disposed of them so far as they relate to church
exemption. . • , . ,

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — The same reason that would cause so'
many delegates at this Convention to vote as they have done, if thi'y are
acting on principle, would cause them to vote on the others the same way.

The Chairman— Was it the intention of the Convention to rehgati^ other
matters contained in these resolutions to the same place to which they sent
those v/ith regard to church <>xemptions. ' '■' ^ '■

Alderman McKelvey, Kingston—I think we had better go on with the
others.

Alderman Parnell. London— As the m(»ver of the amendment which has
jtist b«'en carried I would say we are simply dealing with the quei-tiou
before the house.

On motion the other matters contained in the resolutions referred to
were laid on the tiihle.

The Secretary read Clause No. 6 of the second report of the Committee
on Resolutions, as follows:

i>
Moved by Aid. M. Y. Keating, St. Catharines, S('C<mded by Aid. Don.ald

Robertson, St. Catharines, that this Convention desires to express its dis-
approval of the passage of any legislation granting special privih'gi's to any
municipality 1o grant bonuses of any description to manufacturing indus-
tries, and would stronnly recuiintuMul the (iovciinufnt to refu>-:e to allow the passage
of any such legislation.

Aid. R( )'>ertc!un, St. Catharines— Speaking with regard to the latter part
of the resoli.iion, we wish some action to be taken whereby we shall get the
Legislature, if possi>)le, to refuse any special acts.' For instance, they have
already passed a general Act refusing the right to grant bonuses in almost
every instance, but some of the municipalities which are represented here to-
day have considered that that Act militated against them on some particular
occasion, and they go to the Legislature and get them to pass a special Act
for their own special benefit. It is to prevent the passage of these special
Acts that we wish this Convention to take the action we have recommended.

The Chairman — This resolution, in my opinion, so far as the last part
of it is concerned, is hardly in proper shape; it would be very fooish for us
I think to ask the Legislature to pass an Act to prevent the Legislature from
doing what it wished in the future; they cannot prohibit themstdves from
doing it, but I think we ought to frame this resolution as an expressiim of
our opinion that the Legislature should not do anything of the kind in the
future.

Aid. RolxTtson, St. Catharines — The resolution may be wrongly worded,
but the intention is, as you, Mr. Chairman, have stated, that we should im-
press upon them as the feeling of this Convention that they should refuse
anything of the kind in future.

Th(> Chairman put the motion as amended which, on a vote having been
taken, was carried unanimously.

The Secretary read Clause No. 7 as follows:

Moved by Mr. Marx, of Chatham, seconded by Mr. Laughton, of Toronto
Junction, that section 3 of the Consolidated Assessment Act be abolished
and eraiwd from the statutes, which reads as follows;

" Evory pliioe of worship and land used in connection therewitii, church-
yard or burying grc.und. Provided, however, that land on which a place ol
worship is erected, and land used in connection with a place of worship,
phall be liable to be assessed in the same way, and to the same extent as
other land, for local improvements hereafter made or to be made." '

The Secretary— This resolution is not recommended for consideration by
the Commiltec; it is practically the same as Alderman Ilaunaford's
resolution.

The Secretary read Clause 8 as follows, which was withdrawn:

Moved by Mayor Elliott. Brantford, seconded by Aid. I'arnell. London.

That when this Convention adjourns it shall meet again in Brantford on the

23rd of September, 1898.

t
On motion report No. 2 of the Oommittee on Resolutions as amended

was adopted.

liiLECTION OF UPFICERS.

The Chairman— The report which was adopted provides that at the close
of the session th" officers for the next year shall be elected.

Aid. Farnell, London — I was going to move, Mr. Chairman — I knew
I am asking something more than I ought to ask — thai Fhe minutes of this
meeting be printed and a copy sent to each of the delegates and clerks of
municipal councils.

The Chairman — The delegates of the City of Torotno have already made
provisions for that by having a stenographer present to make la report of the
proceedings.

Ex- Aid. Marx, Chatham— I move that +he Mayor of Toronto be President
ex ofHoio.

Aid. Parnell, London— I beg leave to move that the chairman now
occupying the chair be President for the ensuing year.

Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — I beg to second that.

The Chairman— It is very kind of you, but having occupied the cha'r •
for one year I think the honors ought to go around.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I am of opinion that we ought to have the pre-
siding officer from outside. Another reason T have for making the nomina-

tion I am about to iaako is that llio honor of that position ought to go
around; I thiiilt that is only fair and right. I have very much ploasurc in
bringing f(»rward the nani(> of a gentleman who I am sure cannot but have
impressed this Convention with his fitness for tliat position during our
session here. I allude to the Mayor of Owen Sound. I therefore nimiinate
Mayor Thompson, of Owen Sound, for the position of presiding officer for
the next year.

The Chairman— As I said before, I thinlt the honor should go around,
and with the ccvnsent of my mover and seconder I would ask to withdraw.

W. A. Clark. Yofk Township— I second Aid. Cnrlyle's nomination.

Aid. Parnell, London— The reason I made the nomination I did was that
while I agree with the statement made that the honor should go around, we
are now at the beginning of the existence of this Association; there will be
perhaps considerable work to do during the year which we have entered
upon; there is sure to be because we have certain things that will have to
be taken to the Government and looked after, and in view of that and in
view of the importance of the year upon which we have entered I think the
President and Secretary should be members of the City Council of Toronto.
I would heartily support my friend from Owen Sound for the positioli of
Vice-President, but I think we ought to have the matter put in the shape I
propose for this year at least.

The Chairman called for further nominations. There being none le
declared the nominations closed.

The Chairman — Those in favor of the nomination of Mayor Thompson,
of Owen Sound, for the position of President please signify.

Aid. Parnell, London— I have not consented to the present Chairman
withdrawinfT.

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I would suggest that Aid. Parnell take the chair
While the vote is being taken.

Aid. Parnell took the chair.

Aid. Scott, Toronto — I must say that my name must not come before the
meeting. There is no use in my taking the chair. I appreciate the honor
very much, but I would not allow my name to go forward for the presidency
next year.

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23 WEST MAIN STREET \ \
WEBSTER, N.V. 14580 ' '
(716) 872-4503

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I would say, if Aid. Scott would accept
the presidency of tb's Association for the present year T would only be too
glad to withdraw. -^ r

Mayor Johnson, Belk-ville — It is clearly the desire of the Convention
that you should consent. Aid. Scott, and I think we will request you still to
allow your name to be presented. (Applanse).

Aid. Parnell, London — There is but one nomination before the chair.
All in favor of Aid. Scott as President for the ensuing term please signify
by a sitanding vote.

The large body of delegates arose amid applause.

Aid. Parnell, London — I beg to tender to you, sir, the unanimous ex-
pression of this Convention in electing you President for the ensuing year;
I hope and trust it will be a very happy and prosperous one.

Aid. Scott, Toronto — I would rather if the honors had gone around, but

inasmuch as it was the unanimous desire that I should occupy th<>^ pos^ition

for the ensuing year I will waive my own feelings on the matter, and I again

tender you my very sincere and kind thanks for the honor done me.

(Applause).

i
, Aid. Scott took the chair.

' Mayor Johnson, Belleville— I have much pleasure In nominating Mayor
Thompson, of Owon Sound, for the office of Vice-President.

Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls— I nominate Mayor Skinner, of Kingston.

Aid. Carlyle. Toronto — I second the nomination of Mayor Thompson.

Mayor Skinner, Kingston— I beg to withdraw in favor of Mayor Thomp-
son. There being no other nominations for the office of Vice-President,
Mayor Thompson was declared elected to the office.

Aid. McAndrews, Hamilton— I beg to nominate Aid. Leslie, of Toronto,
for the position of Secretary.

Councillor McCulloch. East Toronto — I second the nomination. There
being no other nominations Aid. Leslie was declared elected to the office of

Secretary.

\ *.

The following were appointed as composing the Executive Committee:

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Aid. McKelvey, Kingston; Mayor Colquhoun, Hamilton; Mayor Johnson,
Belleville; Aid. Parnell, London; and the Mayor of Chatham.

The Chairman— Who should lay these matters before the Government?

Aid. McAndrew. Hamilton— The officers of the Executive.

The Chairman— Should they be invited to attend here for that purpose
or should it be done by memorial.

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I think they should do it In person. f

Aid. Parnell, London— That can be left to the Committee.

Moved by Ma>yor Hewer, of Guelph. seconded by Mayor Thompson, of
Owen Sound, That the thanks of this Convention be tendered to his Worship
the Mayor and Aldermen of the City of Toronto for calling the present Con-
vention together, and also for the pleasant and hospitable time they have
given us during our stay in their beautiful Oity, and we trust that their
efforts will bring forth good results.

The Chairman put the resolution, which, on a vote having been taken,
was declared carried unanimously.

The Chairman — His Worship tl e Mayor not being present I can axy that
he will I am sure receive this resolution with very great pleasure indeed,
and I win say that it gave me very much pleasure to have the opportunity
of meeting the members of this Convention and extending a. h<'iirty welcome
to them. The views of his Worihip the Mayor and of the other gentlemen
who are mentioned in this resolution are that this Convention will, in its
deliberations, exercise a very considerable influence in bringing about the
reforms for which we have been struggling for so many years. I myself
feel very strongly that this Convention has not met in vain, and that the
association which we have formed will result in very much benefit to th'.»
municipalities in their efforts to govern themselves on the beat linen pos-
sible. So far as I myself am concerned, I thank you very kindly for this
expression of your good wishes.

Councillor McCtilloch, East Toronto— I beg to move that the thanks of
this Convention be tendered to (»ur Chairman and Secretary; to the Chair-
man for the very able way in which he kept order in this assembly of
cranks. If I may say it; it appears to me that this has been the most difTi-
cult Convention to keep in line that I have ever had the pleasure of attend-
ing; It is probably owing to the fact that there are so many strong minded

and large brainod men present. It is a very difficult thing to guide the helm
so well, so wisely and kindly as the present Chairman has done; there-
fore I thinlt the thanks ol this Convention are particularly due to him for
the very able manner in which l.e kept us all in line; the thanks of this
Convention should also be tendered to the Secretary for the very able man-
ner in which he has kept track of the proceedings.

Mayor Johnson, Belleville— I would like, as one of the members whom
the Chairman has kept in line, to second that motion, and I wish to thank
our Chairman for the way in which he has guided me through the many
intricacies which have occurred during this Convention. Ho has the quali-
ties of a good Chairman; he is dignified and good looking; and I am sur-
prised to find he is a bachelor; I do not know what the la,dies of Toronto
are thinking about. He has got what is essential in every Chairman, a good
thick backbone.

I must speak also of the City of Toronto from a conventional point of
view; it can handle a convention like this and it can handle the British
Association of Scientists equally as well. We are proud of the City of To-
ronto, and particularly proud of our Chairman. ..

Aid. Parnell, London— Before that motion is put may I say that I think
there is one point that we ought to take home to ourselves, and that is the
fact that has been impressed upon us that this Convention has not been
held in vain. I desire to say in that connection that although some of us,
perhaps all of us, feel we have not got all we want, still we have taken
quite a step in the right direction, and I agree with you, sir, that I believe ,
the resolutions and deliberalions of this Convention will be of such a char-
acter that they will make their influence felt from one end of this Province ■
to the other. . '.■ ■!-/'] .;i:'- -\.\--"^' •/>"'■' '-"'«;•■'-' ^-^i>■i' '\ ^ ■;"•;■. ; •■' -'^'

Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— While coming down to the City of Toronto
this moraing in company with Aid. Emory, there travelled along with us
one of the Cabinet Ministers of the Ontario Government, a very Influential
member of the Cabinet. He said he was in accord with this Convention,
and he believed the resolution that was passed yesterday asking that power
should be taken from municipalities to grant t,ax exemptions should be
passed by the Ontario Government. He was reading the morning paper
when we got on the train at H'lmilton and that was his expression to us;
so that we have already got a least one convert In the Cabinet of the
Ontario Government. * *

Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound, put Councillor McCulloch's motion
which, on a standing vote being taken, was declared carried unanimously
(with applause). ' • ,

Mayor Thompson — I beg to tender you, sir, this resolution of thanks.

Tho Chairman — I have felt all along that my work was made very easy >-
for me by the very kindly way with which you received my rulings, though at
limes you may not have entirely agreed with them. I lay no claim to in-
fallibility in the interpretation of parliamentary ruUs, and if I made a mis-
take I made it because of an error in judgment and not from any deoire to
influence by my decision the legislation of this Convention.

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It has never been my pleasure to preside over a body that yielded so
nicely to the decisions of the chair, and in that respect my work was made
very easy for me. While the expression "cranks" has been uspd, I ihnk
it is not used in any offensive sense; I can only say that if the members
of this Convention can be called cranks. I delight to be in the company of
cranks. At any rate, the term " crank " brings to us this idea, that no man,
no community ever accomplished anything in the way of reform unless
he or they was or were in earnest about it, and to be earnest in these days
is taken as another name for being a crank.

T express my thanks again to you. It has been very great pleanire to
me to preside at this meeting. I trust the meeting has been pleasant to you
all; I trust you will go home and spread the good news you have obtained
amongst your constituents, and that they will all return you to power and
send you back again to Toronto, and nobody in Toronto will welcome you
with any greater pleasure than your Chairman. (Applause.)

I forgot some time ago when the vote was tendered to the Aldermen
for their services, to include Alderman Carlyle; I wish to give him an op-
portunity of offering his thanks.

Aid Carlyle— What you have said, sir, is Quite sufficient.

Ories of "Carlyle. Carlyle."

Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— Mr. Chairman, I have to thank you for (ho good
words you have said for the Mayor and Aldermen of the City of Toronto
and every member of the City Council. I can assure you, sir, that there is
no member of that Council who welcomes the delegates to this Convention
to Toronto more gladly than I do. and there Is no one who has taken more
interest in the deliberations of this Convention, and nc one who has been

more nnxious about the results of this Convention than your humble ser-
vant hufi been. I rejoice to-day that the results have been what they are.
I expected that we should be more in number, but I did not expect greater
results than have been achieved by this Convention. I therefore can retire
to-night from the Convention with some degree of satisfaction. I have not
urged for this Convention, or a.gitated for this Convention on any personal
grounds, but I believed that it was in the interests of the different communi-
ties; pnd for that reason I tried to get the Convention together. I thank
you again for the kind words you have spoken. (Applause.)

On motion of Aid. Parnell, of London, the Convention adjourned.