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FACTS AND FIGURES.

Mass Meeting Addressed by the Premier at New Westminster— Equal
Justice by tlie Administration to all Sections of the Province Alilte
Clearly Proved-==>Parliament Buildings and Redistribution Policy of
the Government Triumphantly Vindicated.

()a the evening of Tuesday, May 10, the
Hon. Theo. Davie, in response to a numcr-
misly signed requisition, presented to him
a few days previously, delivered an aiidrtss
in Herring's Opera House, New Westnun
ster, to a packed audienee, there being pres-
ent in tlie hddy of the hall \ve)l known men
from various scetior s of tlie district.

Kx-Mayor W. B. Towiisend occupied the
chair, and si ated upon the platform were
Messrs. J. ('. Brown, JanieaPunoli and C. B.
Sword, members of the Legii-hiturc, Mayor
Curtis, and Aid. Hoy, Ovens and Sinclair.

The chairman brittly stated the objec' for
.^which the meeting was eullid, observing
''that he hoped the Premier would receivo a
fair hearing. He felt assured that he would,
so that it could not be said that the leader
of the Government had come to New West-
minster and had been denied a hearing. He
hoDed they would be true to their tradi-
tions. To show to a Mainland audience that
the Government had done what was et\tircly
right was a heavy task. If the Premier huc-
ceeded in doing so, so nnich the better rran
was he.

The Premier's Speech,

On coming forward Mr. Davie was re-
ceived with applause. He said: Mr,
(Jh&irman, Lulies and Gentlemen: It af-
fords me much pleasure to meet you this
evening for the disanssion of political mat-
tors. 1 have been informed by some, that
80 strong was the feeling in this district
against the Government that it would be
useless for myself, or any member of the
Government to endeavor to addrc>8 a public
meeting, and that we would be simply
hooted from the stage. Now being assured
that I have a reasonable explanation to give
of political matters, I Hatter myself that I
have gauged public opinion in tltia city, and
ia this distriot, much better than my in-
formants. I know perfectly well that m
this distriot, as well as everywhere else,
there is the British principle of fair play

and everybody who has a right to demand a
hfaring will be heard. I was perfectly
sat.sdcd when I v as told that resolutions
had been passed at Vancouver and in this
I'ity, condemning the Government and call-
ing upon Mr. Punch, who has supported
the (Jovernineiit, to resign, that that was
not the (lehberate action of those who were
disposed to hear both sidles and determined
to exercise their own judgmeuf; I was
.satisfied that those meetings did
not fairly roprcient the people
and I think every man will agree with me,
that f lir-min'ied uien would not pass a vote
of ctinsure until the Government had been
given an opportunity to be heard. I am
glad of the opportunity of addressing not only
tills large and repntentative gathering, but
shall be, to address others in the district,
»'ither here or elsewhere. I will endeavor
this evening to set poli ical matters before
yon in their true light — what I deem to be
their true light — und I hope I will succeed
in doing so. (Applause.) Much of the
agitation which has culminated in getting
up the petition to the tJovernor-Goneral has
been the work of those who desire to, and
who live in fact, by disturbing the public
mind. (No, no, and applause.) I don't
.say they earn their living, but I tay that is
their living, these agitation.n. I am not
blind to the fact that there is a feeling here
of something which should be explained, a
feeling of unrest, a sentiment of danger to
come, which, although not fully developed,
ind not yet, with some, very deep-seated,
yet is of such a nature as to call for explan-
ation, I should not represent the Govern-
ment of this Province 're I not to be the
lirst to accord with this expression of senti-
ment on the part of the people. Now, as I
have already said, I hope that with reason-
able men I shall be able to allay any feeling
of distrust and to clear up matters, without
any exception. I say it is with that know-
ledge, and with the courage of my convio*

tions iu the matter, that I dow come before
you. It ia a fact that the only paper in this
city has misrepresented the Government's
actions, and the facts of the case in every
way,! and this I shall endeavor to prove.
The Vancouver morning paper is similarly
misrepresenting things. I shall speak de-
liberately and lay before you

Facts and Figures
in such a way that they can be taken down
and published. An effurt has been
made to spread abroad the belief
that the Government wishes to rale
this country with a policy of rank m-
justice. That, upon the face of it, is a pro
position which must condemn itself in the
mind of every reasonable peiaon. Anyone
would be simply insane .to want to govern a
country with a policy of injustice towards
a portion of it, and if it ia shown to me that
I cannot administer the affairs of this
country in a way acceptable to the right-
thinking men of the community, by doing
justice to all sections, I do i.ut wish to hold
the reins of power a single day. [Applause ]
Let us take as a text the petition which is
being gotten up to the Governor-General. I
will give it consideration for the time being,
which is mor.i than this document will get
when it reaches the hands of those for whom
it is iutended. The people to whom this
document is addressed are bound to admit
the principles of responsible government.
As yuu make your bed, so must you lie
You remember a few months atfo there was
an agitation in Nova Scotia regarding the
coal deal there, on account of what was said
to be the Government giving away large
properties to the United States. The
Governor General was applied to ; but was
there anything done? No ; they were told
the Legislature was autonomous ; and that
will be the answer which will be given to
this petition when it reaches Ottawa. There-
fore, I say — and truthfully, too — that I am
about to give this document more considera-
tion than it will get when it reaches the
hands of those to whom it is addressc i. The
petition says :

" That, owing to the rapid Incrense iu the popn-
latiou of certain parts of British (;o'umbia Rlnre
the opening of ihe Canadian Piiolttc Railway,
the LcKisltttlve Assembly of the Province has
not been for many years representative of the
people of the Province; that the Fnld Assembly
18 non-representative to an extent entirely sub-
versive of the principle of responsible govern-
ment, as the stibjoiued stateracDts from the
returns of the last general election will show :
Toe Mainland, with 9.025 registered voters, re-
turned 17 members. The Island, with G,M5 regis-
tered voters, returned 16 members, TheProvihre
Is dlvldei Into 18 cnnsti'.uinnies, with a total
registered vote of lujSGO. Of these voters, 12,091
are registered in seven coiistittieu iei", which
elect Ifi members, and the renmiuiug 2,.st)9 voters
are registered iu 11 constituencies, which ele f
17 members. At the last general election tho
seven con.stiiuencies registering 12,091 voters re-
turned only four members as supporters of the
Government, while 11 small constituencies, hav-
ing 2,W)9 voters, returueil 16 Govcritinent sup-
porters: and one of the four (idvernm nt sup-
porters elected by a large coiiRtifneury having
resigned before the meeting of the House, his
place was supplied by an opponent of the (iov-
ernment. At a meeting of the House, therefoie,
we had (giving each member his proportion of I

the votes registered in his constituency) 19
members who were supporters of the Govern-
ment, representing 4,.'j76 registered voters; 14
members who wee not supporters of the Gov-
erinneut. representing 10,984 registered voters.

"And the letition of the undersigned further
sheweth that at various times before and since
the last general election, and particularly iu the
speech of His Hon r the Lieutenant-Governor at
the opening of the House in January last, a
measure providing for a just redistribution of
representa'ion has oeen promised, the words of
His Honoi's speoch being; 'The time has ar-
rived when the altered conditions of the Prov-
ince demand a change in the method of popular
representtttion in the Legislative Assembly, and
a mea un of redistribution will, therefore, be
submitted to you.' That this of teu- repeated
promise has not been fultllled."

Now. it is said that the Government has
deliberately broken faith with the commu-
nity in this matter. Fortunately, what has
been said by the present Government and
other Governments is upon record, and can
be reftrred to by anybody. In April, 1890,
as many of you will remember, a deputation
waited upon the Government at Victoria
during the session of the House and pressed
their views in the matter of redistribution.
The Government of the day candidly dis-
cus.sed the subject in all its bearings. I
will read j ou some few extracts of what
was said and what was understood to be
done a*-, that meeting :

Mr. T. Dunn— Is it the Intention ol the Gov-
ernment, when the census Is taken, to redistrib-
ute the scats then, or to wait for four years ?

Hon. Mr. Robson— There is no intention to
wait for four years. As to the first part of the
quastioa, it will depend u on the result of the
census takin?. If that does not justify any fur-
ther redistribution, there will be none. I assume
as a matter of almost certainty that it will jus-
tifv it, but one cannot tell.

H n. Mr. Davie— As soon as the census is
taken we shall be iu a position to bring down
legislaliou. We tlo not want to wait fonr years,
assuming the rusult reud.rs a redistribution
nectssiry.

A member— But. this balance of power seems
to keep hold, and they may say: 'No, we have
the balance of power, and we are going to keep
to it for four years."

Hon. Mr. Robson— .Ul we claim now Is that
there are no conditions known to exist to justify
disturbitig the balance of power, but to wait
until the census is taken.

Another member— Are we to understand. If
this redistribution takes place after the census,
that it is to be on the lines of the whole, aud
without respect to the division between tho
Island Rud Mainland?

Hon. Mr. Robson— 1 think there can be no
doubt about that at all.

A Member- It seems to mc that is the root of
the whole ((uestion.

Hon. Mr. Robson— If the census shows it nec-
essary, then the time has come for a new depar-
ture.

That was the text of the Hon. Mr. Rob-
sen's remarks at that time in which I fully
concurred, and by that you were old that
what ia known as the balance of power as
between the Island and the Mainlaad would
not be upheld for a moment but that there
slio'ild be a general redistribution of seata
between those sections of the Province, the
Island and Mainland, based upon the popu-
lation of those places; and that is the posi-
tion we assumed in 18<.I0, it is the position
assumed by the last House aud the position
I assume lo-day. At that time the voters'
lists I dd not been revised with any particu-
larity. I may here say that in September a

i . ision of the voters' list will take place,
and we will endeavor to see that the re-
vision will be thorough. Then there were
other things we might have proceeded upon,
for instance, the number of school children
on the Mainland and on the Island and in
the different districts. Unfortunately, that
gave no indication whatever. You would
have found the numbers on the Island were
slightly in excess of those on the Mainland
and for months you would have found it to
be about even — very little distinction be-
tween them.

The School Going Population.

I saw Dr. Pope, the Superintendent of
Education, and I think he showed me there
was a difference of just about nine in school
children. We took the registry of births,
deaths and marriages for the purpose of see-
ing if we could arrive at a conclusion in
this matter, and that was not satisfactory;
in fact, the preponderance on the Island was
shown to be over and above the Mainland.
I could very well understand how this may
be. Upon Vancouver Island the returns
could more accurately be got at, whereas on
the Mainland you have not the returns so
accurately. That bemg the case, I could
understand why it was found that there was
a greater preponderance of births, deaths
and marriages than upon the Mainland.
So in these matters I did not feel the test
would be a just one, and it was decided to
wait until the census was arrived at, and
when that was received we would know ex-
actly what to do. I have read you
what occurred. Now, the Dominion
census, or final return of the Dominion
census which was issued some time last
month, shows the total population of the
Province to be 1)8,178 people. We had
bulletins issued from time to time before
that, which gave the population at that
same Kgure, but it was not in the condensed
form that you have it now. Now, wlien
the House was opened, there seemed to bi
ButEcient data to form a Redistribution bill.
Our intention was to be governed principally
by population, so far a-t Mainland atul
Island were concerned. We found that the
returns showed, on the Mainland 01,406, on
the Island 37,7(37, of which 61,400 4-_' 120
were in the district of New Westmmster,
including the city of Vancouver and this
city and outlying districts. That made a
very favorable showing for New vVestmius-
ter district. While the census gave the
nationalities the bulletins showed nothing
whatever to indicate the race of any one,
and there was no distinction between the
child of a white man or of an Indian. They
were simply classed as British Columbia
born, and that in what you tind to bu the
oa^e now. We, as I have caid, took the
general returns and came to the conclusion
that the return justihed the redistribution,
and I think you will see that the promise
was made in good faith by the Government.
Most certainly if we had not intended to
carrv out our pfomise we would simply

have been silent, and we could have done
that with some show of reason and justice.
It is true that the Hon. Mr. Ro'bsoii
had made this promise, but we could have
said, " We are not bound by Mr. Robson's
promise to bring in an act for redistribution. "
That is the position we could liave taken,
but having determined to bring in a redis-
tribution measure, we had no hesitation in
promising it. Now after the session had
opened we had to go into the returns closely,
because we had to draw our act, and justify
ourselves to the House and country. The
lirst thing that came to our attention was
the Indian figures. We at once sent a teler
gram to Ottawa to find out how this matter
stood and I shall place in your hands to-
night a paper showing the telegrams which
passed between the Government of the Prov-
ince and Ottawa :

February 26, 1893.
Ifnn. J. If. Turner to J. Lowe, Deputy Minister
Af/riculture, Ottawa: Please wire total of ludiaus
ou Maiulaud, B. C. Also total Indians on Van-
couver Island.

February 27. 1893.
J. Lowe. Deputy Minister .[(jricuHure, to Hon,
■I. 11. Turner: Tota' Indiana oil Mainland, 29,460.
Ou Vttucouver Island, 0,742.

February 27, 1893.
Hon. J U. Turner to J. Lowe, Olta^ra : Does
total population of B. (!. given in Bulletin r> in-
clude Indians'.'

February 28, 1893.
J. Lour. Ottawa, to Hon. .T. II. Turner: Popula-
tion in Census Bulletin rtlative B. C. includes
Indians.

February 28, 1893.
Hon. ,1. If. Turner to ,T. Lowe, Ottawa : Please
wire number of ludian i in each of the five B. C.
districts.

March 1, 18 3.
J. Lowe to Hon J. IT. Turner: Foilowlnti subdi-
visions by agencies, ludiuii population slightly
in excess of tinures given. West. ('oHSt, 2,864 ;
''iiwicbiiii, 2,0lis; Kerakcweth, 1.90,'); Okaiiugaii,
878; Williiuiis l.iike, ),.so;i; Fraser River, 4,338;
KaniUjops, 2,401; Kooteuay,t.9o; Northwest Coast,
4.001; Babine, 2,64r); bauds not unJer agency,
11,796.

March 24, 1893.
Hon. .1. H. Turner to J. Lowe, Ottawa: Your tel-
esrram of the 27th Februnry gives total Indians,
Mainland, 29,160: island, ii72. Bulletin gives
total population B.C 98,173. Deducting Indians,
this leaves whi'o poi>ulRtlon B. C 62,971. la this
correct V Stnto how many whites on Island and
h')w many ou Mainliiiid. Please wire reply as
»oo\i as possible.

March 24, 1893.
J. Lowe, Ottawa, to Hon .T H.Turner: Whites
on Island, 31.02cp; on Mainland. 31,916.

Startling Returns- --Government's
Policy Vindicated.

Now, this was rather startling, and indi-
cated a discrepancy somewhere or another;
but exactly how to get at the matter we
could no: tell. These were the official re-
turns we had l^fore us. Had we attempted
to bring doAii a uill liased on anything else
tha" the white popu'a'ion, every man in
th 'onntry would hiive condemnt.l us; bad
Wb .efused to be guidtd by the census and
th interpretation of the census placed
upon it by those put there to interpret it,
we would have been condemned, and justly
too, by every person on the Island. They
would have said, "You have promised us
representation on the white population;

there is the white population, why have you
Dot done it?" We were not prcpartil to
forego our'pledgcj in this matter; l)ut what
could we do but do exactly as we did '!
There is no great harm done in postpouiu^
this matter to the next aesaion. We shall
have to then, if the census cannot be relied
upon, get our returns from somewhere else,
and bring forward a measure for the pur-
pose without regard to the Island, and
without regard to the Mainland or anything
else except justice to the people, (Chee-s.)
I wish to quote a further telegram since the
House rose, by which you will see how
thoroughly in good faith the Government is
in this matter. As I said, we were satis-
fied that there was some mistake in these
returns, while at the same time we had
Mr. Lowe's statement that they were cor-
rect, and which we were not in a position
to prove was wrong. I have l)een tolil, and
it may be an explanation of the matter,
that Mr Lome's figures, which ho gives,
are arrived at by deducting certain In-
dians which he ought not to deduct; thiit
he had deducted some 11,000 Iiidi.tiis us
whites that are really Indians; and th:i"
there ought to be added 11,000 to the popu-
lation of the Mainland of Hritish C'oluniliia
This may.be the result; l)ut allow mu to tell
you that vvhen the truth comes out, you
will have, and this country will hvve, tlie
benefit of it; because I tell you that redis-
tribution as between Maiidand and Island
will be chietly according to p ipala'ion.
(Cheers,) We have been blamed because
we did not immediately jump to an explana-
tion which Mr, Ikown gave in tlie matter
How could we l.ave jumped to his conjee
tures without getting more accurate retuinH ?
We don't want guess work ; we want facts, J
[Hear, hear. J \Va want returns so tiiat v, u I
cm keep our promise. The consccj'uuce is
that we were bound to get accurate retu.ns.
What do we find is the po.sition of our as-
sailants in this matter '! You will Hi;d it in
this morning's Xeii's Adverllfief umier ihe ;
heading "Census Farce," Ih'j following : I

AceordiuK to a (lispateli frniiv our eorfC.si>r:n 1- I
eut at Ottawa, wiiieh we publishea on Sunanv, I
the Finauee Miuisterof this I'rovince has titeu i
compelled t) accept the census returns \'v in ;
British Columbia as substantially eoneet.

Now, I beg to say that Mr. Turner has '
been obliged to do nothing of the kind. Mr. |
Turner has gone East, and one of his prinei- '
pal objects is to find out how tiiis een-Ui
matter stands. It miy be that the et-ntm will
be acknowledged to be correct as re^anls
the number in the Province ta'<en as a
whole — white men, Indians, Chine>e and
all — and in that view of the matter it m ly be
pKBrfectly right; but to accept the clasaitiia
tion as correct is a very different matter,
and that is what Mr. Turner has gonn there
for — to ascertain the classitiiation; to lii.d
out whether, after everything has beeu in-
vestigated, Mr, Lowe still insists on adher-
ing to the fiijures ; and if he Hiuh out he is
wrong, to discover where the discrepancy
li'js. I may tell you that the returns in this

conceal the true olassilication in the IVov.
ince, yet 1 am assured by the etiumer.itors
thenselves that when •^^i get the returns
you can find out exactly how many Indians
have been included. 1 thought at one time
I had found something. I came across a
CI lumn where they gave the nationality
both of the father and mother; and although
there are s-oiiie white children whose fathers
and mothers have both beeu born ia the
Province, yet they are not very many, and
you can judge whether tliey are wiiit&i or
not; but we found out that those boru in
British Columbia are simply clased as Ca
nadiaus, so the uundjtr of Indian.", so far as
the book is concerned, is simuly sealed, If
you will take the returi.s, y i « ill be able
to Hud out the truth of the matter. The
Neii.'s Adrfrliner goes on to say :

No one who luis ufiven i.ny Himmnt of study
to the ((iiestion ever entertained the idea lor ii
inoiui'iit tliHt r.eeou d do iniythinjrelso Neither,
we may believe, did the K.riMiioe I'inister hini-
seH' nor the remainder (if nis eollesKnes in Vie
t-ria. The tupid blinder of deOuetini? ab ut
1J.01» Indiiuis iruiii lu; popul-ition of tin; Miiiii-
luiid who bud never been included in the census
returns had merely to t)i' exjxised to ( oinpleiely
' ups. t the liinisy pretext for deforriiif,' a incisure
of redistribution.

Now, if that be the correct view of thing-t
who IS the liliin leriiig party? Is it the
(riiverument? All we have done is to send
to those parti'.'s to give us the returns, what
were the Indians, what the Chinese and
what were the numb'jr of the whites and
he ha^ assumed to give them, aid if tiic-e
is any mistake it is there, not vith u-.
Now allow me io read the la<t telegram
from Mr, Lowe:

.\iu'il IS, i'',i:!.

.7. Liiiri', Oilaiia, ti'> Uiiii. Till') IMvir, Pinnicr:
I'opulntion I!riti«!i Cdiunibia (ibs:>lntelv as fo -
lows: Vane(ni\er Isbiiid — Iiulia'.s, .").:!l!.V, f^hi-
iiese, ;>,l.s:'.; whire-^, :;.-<, -j, ,;i ; totil, ;>('.,7i;7. Main-
Inn)— Imiians, J'.i.i.;!! ; Chiiuse, .■>,T27; wliiU'S.
•-'CiOli; total, til .-tot).

This is the return tlmt the Xcirs Ailrer-
O'ser, the ori^'ii • f the iigitatoi'S htrj, ba.\ 8
has to he t'lk' n n correc% and tint, no smi
si'i'e man ear' srpjio=e luything else The e
aic fa ts I am tt IH.ej you, and what is
more, I am aoii g to i;ive a copy of those
docm (lilts to evcryoii') who wants them hv
which you can sre f. r yonrst-lf. Have I
ever pinned nij faith to that return? Have
I not Slid from tlie Hrst that I believed
that the retur.'-; are wrong and inaccurate?
Now, I know tiia'.to every reasonable per-
son in this audience I have given a satisfac-
tory explanaMnn of this matter of rdi tri-
1 utieii. The (toverninent could not have
done otherwi-e than it has done, and every
honoriilile man should u;jh<dd me in thi-i
matter. Anyone who has not his feelings,
his rcaioi and convictions blinded by pre-
judice will see that the Govern i ent i-t hon-
est in the c urse it has taken, and I

will ta'<e the^e docu-

hope you

menta and real and digest them, and
a-ic( rtain whetlier the Goveruniont is right
or wrung on tlie stand it has ta';en o^i the
iiuestiou of redistri'mUon. If yon g-i
, through the census von will fiud that great
Blue Buo.; seem to be mixed up so as to [ pains are taken to divide every district up,

I
I

l\S

ISO

■■(.(l

li't

ir-
»';■
ri-

ivc

'/
li-i

re-

ilU-

I
cu-
111(1

up,

large and small, into limited HcctionH for tho one vote." That is all right when you
purpose of taluiig tlie census. So much so apply it to the city, hut outside of the city
is) this done that in V'ictoiia they give you you aro in a ditt'erunt position altogether;
the population by wards. Esquimalt and ; and I think you will sny that is the rule
Cariboo, and counties in the East are divid- adopted ilsewhcro. Take Toronto for in-

od into small districts, but when you come
to New Westminster there are onlv three
districts, New Westminster, New West
minster City, and Vancouver. Neither
New Westminster nor Vancouver is separ-
ated into wards as is Victoria New West-
minster district is evenly divided into three
bald sections, and we cannot tlnd out how
the population is distributed. As regards
this particular portion of the Province there
has not been the attention to details there
certainly ought to have been.

Idle to Speculate ; Facts Must be
Proved.

It is perfectly idle to speculate how Mr.
Lowe reached the figures he did. If M'" ' has a farm, u!
could demonstrate to a unit the way in
which he arrived at his mistai<e there would
still not be satisfaction. What you want is
something you can show that will justify
the action taken in this matter.

Mr. Brown's Argument a Justifica=
tion of the Government.

Argument such as that used by Mr.
Brown, Mr. Cotton and others, showing
how absurd these Dominion returns are is
merely the str ngeat kind of justirication of
the (xoverument's action.

Reasons for Delaying Redistribution.

All that the Govevuintut have ever con

stance. L'lit the ])opulation of Ontario
down at not (juite L','2.")0,000. Toronto has
nearly 'JOO.UOU iidiabitants, but has only
three representatives ui tiie Provincial
Legislature. If Torciitn Mere to return
oue-t<'iith, she would yet more than ten
meniljers. So the city of Ottawa, with a
large population, returm one member; as
does Hamilton. The saine rule applies to
.Montreal, (^hiebec, London, and all other
Eastern citie.x. They are not treated ac-
cording to populatioii a-) between theniselvis
and (>utlying di-itricts, but there is a generil
distribution ot the leijreientation made,
bearing in mind the mj nii's and rights of
the whole. It is not just iliat a man who
hicii 1.0 has brought up
his family and spent ; 11 his money, time
and la,bor, should have no more to say as
regarcis political matters than the tirst man
you meet on the streets in a crowded city;
and no just man would couttixl for such
rcdistributiou as that. (Applause ) Now,
havinc said what I have to say on this sub-
ject, I shal' proceed to deal with the quea-
tion of the . .overument buildings in Vic-
toria.

New Parliament Buildings.

It has been sanl that I wruld not find it
so easy to defend the action of the Ooveru-
meiit in this conneLtion. I should not have

tended is that Ihere is ..oniething radically I said anything about it. l.ut_I bd.tvo in
wrong about these returns, and it is for the ; -'taking the bull by the horns in all cases

purpose of setting these wroiig-* right that
they have dilated the iiiattrr of redistri-
bution. Theie c*n be ai early session next
year and then a K-.'distriliution bdl will be
brought down, baced principally, so far as
Mainland and Island is concerntd, upon thi-
population.

They tell uathafa'. the bi-t generi-l elec-
tion seven coiigtilue'if-ies, r.-jisteri: ^ 12,091
voters, returned onlj i. iii miii.!«trti as sup

— (appl luse and uproai) — and if contrary to
;iiy exjjcctations I were prevented from
getting a healing, every fair minded man
could onlv come to the conclusion that if
the Premier of the com, try in attempting to
explain the policy of his Government is
hooted down, the pjople do not want to
luar tiie truth. 1 am perfectly indepen-
dent in this matter, I came here desir-
ing to not a fair hearing, and I ex-

large constitiKncy having resigned before
the meeting of the House, bis place was
supplied by an (>pponent of the Govern
ment," and so on.

Cities Not to Have All the Repre-
sentation,
Now, this inaccurate data boiled down
means this, that the cities where you
find the centres of population should
have almost the entire repretentii
tion. If that is what these petition-
ers are contending for, 1 may tell
you that no such representation would be
permitted in any country uudur British
rule. You hive got t-j five outlying
tiicts represeatation. It is a very
tbiag ia tha abjtr^io t to have "one

dis-
uice
man

on works of ilevelopment," the Government
lias taken power to borrow ,*(JOO,000 to meet
the lirst estimate of the cost of public build-
ings. This exaggerated way of putting ib
ii fers there are large sums to be expended
afterwards. I can only repeat the assurance
that there is no such intention. The contract
has to be given for the work, and wo do not
expec the country to justify the expendi-
ture of any sum exceeding §000,000. Pub-
lic buildings were rtquired, and had to be
erected somewhere; and if erected at Chilli-
wack, or Vancouver, I suppose we would
not have heard very much complaint. If
you go into the old buildings now you will
find that the roof of the Legislative Assem-
bly hall is leaking. X was in there the ether
day, after a rainstorm, and there waa a pool

l'4ti^^o

of water back of the Speaker's chair from
the roof. In the Attoruey-GoDeral's office
the roof Iraks in several places. How could
these structures be otherwise, erected, as
they were, some 30 years ago, and built of
wood with a brick veneer ? It has been said
we might go along for years without put-
ting up new buildings. " We do not want to
interfere with the Capita! in any way." I
know that there is no question about moving
the Capital. I do not think there would
ever be any agreement as to where to bring
it, if changed. But it is said you could get
on with these buildings for a long time.
Well, of course, we could make patch-work
of them and spend la ge sums of money
every year in making repairs. From $5,0U0
to $10,000 a year could be expended for
that purpose for years to come. A few years
ago the repairs and additions amounted to
$20,000, and .^.30,000 would be within the
mark of what has been spent there during
the last four years. At the present time
there has to be a caipenter employed on
these buildings constantly. No one found
fault with the $75,000 expended last year
for the erection of a fire-proof land registry
office. Th( n it haii been said that it would
be far better to spend this money in opening
up roads, streets and bridges. Even if the
Government could build roads and take a
road to every settler's door, how much
dissatisfaction would be caused by those
who would not get the roads just
where they wanted them? [Applause.]
Spend that §000,000 how you like, you
would, have just as many dissatiatied per-
sons as you would have satistied ones. You
would have complaints from Cariboo to
Comox of favoritism by the Government.
Let us coni<ider what this really means, this
expenditure: It has been put to you as if
it meant $600,000 thrown down in a lump
sum and taken from a depleted treasury.
The expenditure means exactly the yearly
sum for a sinking fund to pay tS the loan
and the interest. What does that amount
to? I fi;ot the auditor to make me a compu
tation of what the sinking fund and interest
would amount to.

Financial Condition of tlie Province.

As you are aware, the financial co ditiou
of the ProviHce is excellent. Th^ credit of
the Province stands nearly equal to any
other colony in the world. (Cheers. ) Brit
ish Columbia's 3 per cents are now quoted
at 93 to 93^. Now, at 93,the interest would
be £3 4s Gd per cent In order to realize a
sum equal to $600,000 bondi sold at 93, it
would require an issue of about £133,3.33,
and the annual interest thereon would be
£3.999, or $19,384. The cost to the Pro-
vince on the above basis would be annually,
interest $19,384, sinking fund $6,000,
total $25,384; and at the end of 50 years it
would be paid off. These are not my com-
putations; they were made by the Provin-
cial auditor. Now, I would like to know,
if $25,000 is going to be expended for this
purpose every year, how much that sum

distributed over the whole Province is go-
ing to shorten the funds available in build-
ing roads and making permanent improve-
ments. When you take the .§5,000 for re-
pairs into account, you still have it to re-
duce the $'J5,000 with. Say the yearly ex-
penditure is from $.300,000 to $500,000
upon roads, streets, bridges and public im-
provements, I say what figure does the sum
of $20,000 cut in respect of this expendi-
ture? It is not worth mentioning. Victoria
and district, in common with the rest of the
country, are entitled to their share in the
dittribution of public moneys, and in ap-
portioning that, this expenditure will of
C( urse be taken into consideration. The
same may be said in regard to the tratiio
bridge across the Fraier. So that there is
i;o more injustice in appropriating $20,000
for the purpose of sinking fund and interest
upon the $600,000 for the buildings, than
in appropriating $15,000 for seven years
for the bridge across the Fraser. You
will say this is only temporary. That may
be, bi't the member for the district, when
the time comes, will, I expect, present
a strong case ^for an increased grant.

Expenditures on the Mainland.

It was said that the Mainland was un-
justly dealt with in the matter of public ap-
propriations. I deny that, and shall prove
to you that in the matter of appropriations
for public works the Mainland has had its
full quota of justice. When the delegation
came to Victoria in 1890 it was not denied
that this was the case. The delegates ad-
mitted that this district had been fairly
dealt with at that time. Let us look over
what has been expended during the last
three years on the Mainland and on the
Island. You will lind that for public pur-
poses, everything outside of the civil gov-
ernment salaries, and the cost of maintain-
ing the Government, there has been spent
on Vancouver Island — iu 1890, $173,840; in
1891, $163,263; and in 1892, $208,088; or a
total of $545,191. On the Mainland what
do we find? In 1890 there was spent $3.37,-
293; in 1891, $335,462; in 1892, $433,362;
a total of $1,106, 117, or more than double
what was spent on Vancouver Island. (A
voice, Show the revenue.) Yes, I shall
proceed to do so. During that time the
re> enue derived from the Island, inclu^iive
of land sales, was $585,542 01, leaving a
balance over and above expenditure of $40,-
40101 to go into the general purposes of
the Government. Upon the Mainland the
total amount of the revenue was very much
larger; it was $1,249,060.19. (Cheers.)
Take from that the amount actually ex-
pended on the Mainland, and you have a
balance of $142,943.19 returned to the
treasury for the purposes of the general
government of the country. So that on
the Isla^nd you have $40,401.01 returned to
the treasury of the revenue of the country,
over and above the appropriations; and on
the Mainland, $142,943.19 to the treasury
of the revenue of the country. Do these

flgurea show any injustice as regards the
Mainland ? And a further consideratioii of
the facts will show still further how justly
and fairly this portion of the Province has
been dealt with. If you take the Shuswap
& Okanagan Railway, it tirst got a lump
sum of $200,000, which was afterwards
changed to a guarantee of interest equal
t« $50,000 for 25 years. A similar gua
rantee was passed last session in aid of
the Spence s Bridge & Nicola Valley
Railway, and a guarantee of interest
on $800,000 or thereabouts on the
Nakusp & Slocan Railway — a line calculated
to open up and aid in developing the mining
resources of Kootenay. To come nearer
home, there was a guarantee passed of 2 per
cent, upon the bonds of the Chilliwack Rail-
road to the extent of §500,000. [Cheers. |
It is true that the guarantees have been so
arranged that the public revenue is nut
likely to be seriously encroached upon ; but
still the fact remains that the credit of the
country has been pledged for these works.
As against the 43 railways, what do you find
on Vancouver Island ? The v'^ictoria & Sid-
ney Railway is the only one, and there the
Government tak 3S an obligation of $0,000
and the city of Victoria of §9,000. Besides
the appropriations aud aids to railways,
there was aid to quartz mining inOaribno of
$74,509, and you have a small expenditure
for a woolen mill in this place of $3,000,
and $37,500 towards a bonus for the (.'. P. R.
coming to New Westminster; aud you have
$15,000 a year in aid of the bridge across
the Fraser, which it would have been diffi
cult, if not impossible, for the city itself to
raise. Take a glance over these facts — facts
that cannot be challenged— .d ask your-
selves if the Government of the country is
treating you so badly ? (A voice: No, no, )
Matters do not stop here. In the tirst place,
the revenue from the Mainland is only
$1,249,000. In this 1 have included the land
sales, and the same upon Vancouver Island,
and have shown that you have had the reve-
nue raised upon the Mainland expended
here in public works, educe 'ion, surveys
and so on — all of it, sir, with the exception
of about $149,000 ; and the same thing is
true of the Island, which has liad similarly
expended the revenue collected there within
$40,000.

Sales of Public Lands.
Now the proceeds of the sale of the land
of the Province does not belon? to any par-
ticular portion of it, and any land sales are
entitled to be distributed for the benefit of
the people generally. The Mainland had
no particular claim to the land revenue being
expended here. What did the land (ales
amount to during those three years ? They
amounted to $491,310 upon the Mainland.
Take that from $1,249,000 gross revenue,
and what have you got as the net revenue ?
You have $757,749.39. That puts the mat-
ter in another shape altogether. You have
then the revenue considerably less than the
expenditure, the expenditure being $1,106,-
117, with a revenu-^ of $757,749, leaving

$348,367 of a deficit. On Vancouver Island
the revenue was $585,572.01, the laud sales
being $149,659.82. Deduct then the land
land sales and take the revenue from the
expenditure and you have an excess of ex-
penditure over revenue of $119,278 81.

Expenditure in Municipalities.

I would like to ask you, sir, whether any
of these municipalities, Surrey, Langley,
Maple Ridge, Coquitlam and the others,
have not received back their contribu-
tion of taxes to the general revenue !
Take one year's showing, there is a total
expenditure in municipalities outside Van-
couver and New Wistminstei- of $62,340 62
for roads and schools. What do you find
the revenue is that has been reneived from
these places ? According to a return handed
me it IS the sum of $16,618.23. I think I
have now shown you that this part of the
country has been fairly treated by the Gov-
ernmett I have shown you that the fear
of injustice in the matter of redistribution
has no foundation ia fact, and I am sure
that every reasonable man will admit that
there is no cccaeion for this ■..aration
petition. I have been informed that
this movement i< spreading. If it ia
spreading it is nnerely among thoie
«vho are not iufi rmcdin the matter. I have
beeu told they have formed a Government
for the country, and even have appointed
the members of their cabinet. They . xpect,
no doubt, to do great things, for them-
selves, when the new "kingdom" comes.
Here is a country that has, say 100,000 of a
population. Do you suppose the proposal
is going to be listened to for one moment
that we should have two separate Provinces.
The thing is too ridiculous, and every sen-
sible man must see that those getting up
these petitions arc simply making fools of
themselves, aud the people who sign the
petitions ridiculous. Now, having shovin
the determination of the Government to
deal fairly in this matter and all other mat-
ters before the country, I would draw your
attention to the kiid of encouragement
given by the morning organ at Vancouver
when it writei that no matter what the
Government may do they are to have no
credit for it. In the House of Assembly
Mr. Brown and Mr. Cotton claimed to
wish to act with the Government in bring-
ing down a fair measure of redistribution.
They say, let us have representation accord-
ing to populatif^n. They want to cut off
the country districts — pocket boroughs they
call them. The two smallest of these coun-
try constituencies are Alberni and the Is-
lands. Yet, would you believe that both
Mr. Brown and Mr. Cotton in the Legisla-
tive Assembly advocated the Islands and
Alberni retaining their representatives, and
the same with Cariboo. A nice bait to
hold out to these people. Their insincerity
was shown by their professions. In some
things they had been ingenuous foea. I feel
I have trespassed anduly on your forbear*
ance. (No, no.) Whatever opposition I
might have expected to encounter, I felt

thcro was a sutliuknt spirit of justiuo and
fair play to f^ive iiiu thu impartial liraring
which you huvu done to iiiglit, and ] iliiiik
you, Mr. Chairman, ladioi and guutlumen,
for the itind manner in which yon have
liHtuuud to my exposition of tiie policy of
the Government of wiiitli I Imxo the honor
to l)e leader, (i/nid and long continued
chcerB.)

Mr. J. C. Brown M,l'. P., having at some
length addressed tli<' niuiting,

I'lio I'remior, licing called on to reply,
Slid : 1 have not very much lo say. The
hour is growing late, and 1 fear your
patience has ;ilit.a<!y lii.i;n considerably
taxed. As to tiiis placard which Mr, Brown
8ay.s cauio from t'hilliw;i(;\, 1 toll you that
that ia the first I saw (jf it, or heard of it, I
or that I was instrumental in getting it up.
Perhaps some misguided friend thought it
would do very well to miiku this auuounce-
meut, although nobody at all had the slight- I
est authority from mo to do it. T ,, ,ve not '
the slightest objection, however, lu go to
Chilli wack or auyvvh r" else tvhero the
people might wish to near any remarks
from me. [Chetrs] I have very little to
say in reply, and were it not for the purpose
of putting one matter straight, pud \\ Inch I
should have referred to in my opening re-
marks, I do not know that 1 would have
thought it necessary to make any
reply. The matter I wish to speak of
ia the propo-'al ta guaiautee the incorpora-
tors of the Canada Pacillc or British Pacific
Railway to the extent of §(3,000,000. Now,
allow me to say, as regards tliat matter, all
that has been said on the subject is what wo
are bouud to say — what any (Jovernment
must say regarding any propo.silion — that it
will receive consideration ; but up to the
present moment no proposal has been made
which the Government can deal with. No
proposition in a business shape has been
placed before the Government, and whether
it will be or not I do not know ; but should
it be so, I am sure wo will deal with it
in a business like way. Let me tell yon
another thing: there would be no power on
the part of the Government to give any aid
to this company of any kind whatever.
It would have to come bifore the House for
that purpose; and supposing it were to do
so and wer- to be carried by a "mechanical
majority,' as my honorable friend Mr,
Brown would call a majoiity of the mem-
bers, before any legislation in the matter
conld have any efftct whatever, before any-
thing could be done, the House would have
to go to the people, because the next session
ia the last of thi^ Mouse, So the conse-
quence is, I do U' t care how des'.ous the
Government might be to aid that measure,
the matter would not assume any definite
bhape whatever until placed before the peo-

ple; and it this present House in its dying
hours, in th(3 last days of the session, chose
to pass suci) a meas<-re as is outlined here,
tlie people, if not pleased with what was
done, would have it in their power to nullify
it. Upon that matter you may feol perfectly
safe. The people would have it in their own
hands to revcrMu the thing almost immedi*
ately afterwards (Applause.)

Mr. Brown says there is no movement on
foot for separation. I read that which pur-
ported to bo a copy of the petition to be
forwarded to His lOxcelkncy the Governor-
(jciieral, anil I am certain a reference was
made tliereia to separation, and the follow-
ing paragraph, I think, will convinoo any
oue of Mr IJiown's misconceptioa oi 'lat
it means. It reads :

Tlirtt, tluTcfore, ilMnicople of tlio "ttM M.ilii-
lanif portion id lUifisli ('olumliJH o*'''.:.t iiioRt
NfroiiKly to tlie si|UHiiiferins; of tin- Hivir.c 1
rcsoiirresi in uoii-iiriMfuctivu iiiiij ikIiiks, Ij.v
(lie voti) of a iioii ieiiro>ei)t(i'i\e IfouFe, Mid
tire now ailvocatiiii,' tlu? sejiHrrttiou of tlio ^^<l^u-
'aiifl froiii tlic f>lnnif as tlie surest means of le-
li 'f from tiie evils uudor which thoy n iircsent
■iiii'l'r.

As ref,'ard8 the question of the proportion
ill which you are to have distribution ac-
cording to population here, that is tho
whole (luestiou over again. \\'e must tiiid
out what is the true position before we can
do anything. Indians who do not pay tax<8
are not taken into consideration at all. Mr.
Brown has referred to everything except
the last telegram from Mr. Lowe; and,
twist it and turn it as he may, there is tho
absolute statement of Mr. Lowe, tho Deputy
Minister, as short a time ago as the 18th ot"
April. He i.y asked how the matter actu-
ally stands in view of all the circumstances,
and he says the British Columbia figures are
as follows :

Vancouver Islttud—Iudiaus f),S'J.j

Ctifufcse 3,1«<

Whites 28,2o'J

Total 36,767

Maiulauil- • Indians 'J'.l.filM

CliiiH'se i'),727

Whites •.Je,045

Total <5f,406

That is what he says ; that ia what the
Dominion (rovernme-it says as regards this.
We asked them for ti: j correct figures, and
they give us these. VV^e think thore is some-
thing wrong, and a^e desirous t > have it
put right for the satisfaction of the people,
so that we may have a correct basis on
which to form our Redistribution Bill. As
regards the Government, so long as it is in
power, it will endeavor to do justice to the
whole country. The Government has every
intention of carrying out its whole duty to
the Province according to the promises
given, and will do what is fair and square in
1 the matter. [Loud cheers.]