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THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE, BEFORE A COIMEMITTEE AGRICULTURISTS AND MANUFACTURERS, ON ^Be Report of tit Cmigrattott Comnitme OS* THE HOUSE OF COMMONS: SIR JOHN ENGLISH, IN THE CHAIR. - LONDON: raiNTEO FOR. LONGMAN, REES, ORME, BROWN, AND GREEN, PATERNOSTER-ROW. 1828. tkt- '4 LoxooKt Printed by A. & IL Spottiswoodc, < Ncw-Strcct> Square. TO THE KING, THE LORDS, AND COMMONS, OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, AND IRELAND, THESE PAGES ARE DUTIFULLY AND RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED BY THE AUTHOR, WITH AN EARNEST REQUEST THAT THEY WILL HONOUR THEM WITH A DISPASSIONATE PERUSAL. Jarmary 1. 1828. A 2 Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey, Where wealth accumulates, and men decay : Princes and lords may flourish, or may fade, A breath can make them, as a breath has made ; But a bold peasantry, their country's pride. When once destroy'd can never be supplied. • « » * Good heavens ! what sorrows gloom'd that parting day. That tore them from their native fields away ; When the poor exiles, every pleasure past. Hung round their homes, and fondly look'd their last. And took a long farewell, and wish'd in vain For scenes like these beyond the western main. • • • # E'en now, methinks, as pondering here I stand, I see the rural virtues leave the land: Down, where yon anchor'd vessel spreads the sail. That idly waiting flaps with every gale. Slowly they move, a melancholy band. Pass from the shore, and darken all the strand. • • • * While shuddering still to face the threatening deep. They stop to gaze, and oft they turn to weep ! The good old sire, the first, prepared to go To new-found worlds, and sigh'd for others' woe j But for himself, in conscious virtue brave. He only wish'd for worlds beyond the grave. His lovely daughter, lovelier in her tears. The fond solacer of his hapless years. Silent went next, neglectful of her charms. And left a lover's for a father's ar;Tis. With louder plaints the mother p!>ke her woes. And blest the cot where every ple^ sure rose ; And kiss'd her smiling babes with many a tear. And clasp'd them close, in sorrow doubly dear; While her fond husband strove to lend relief In all the silent manliness of grief. Deserted Village, A S i-; REPORT OF <1 The Committee appointed by the Agriculturists and Manufacturers of the United Kingdom, to take into consideration the Report of the EMIGRATION COMMITTEE of the House of Commons, and to examine evidence on that, and other subjects connected therewith. It is with feelings of the most awful nature, that the Com- mittee here present to their Constituents the Report, which they were appointed to prepare on some of the most mo- mentous subjects of a temporal nature that can occupy the attention of the rulers of any state. The farther that your Committee have proceeded in the investigation, the more fully have they become convinced of the solemn responsibility of their undertaking. They have found that there are qualifi- cations required in them, of which, had they been before fully aware, they would scarcely have had the temerity to have accepted the appointment. Having, however, accepted of it, they determined, by the blessing of Divine Providence, to fulfil their assigned duty without shrinking from the task, and without favour or partiality. The greatest difficulty which your Committee have encoun- tered has been in entirely ridding themselves of all prejudices and pre-conceived opinions, and in proceeding straight on- wards in a direct course, unbiassed either to the one side or to • A 4. REPORT. the other. It may be here necessary to state, that your Committee have, throughout, endeavoured to recollect that they are accountable agents ; accountable, not only to their earthly constituents, but accountable more especially to their heavenly Lord and Master ; without whose especial blessing, they have felt that all their endeavours would but be labour lost. Relying, then, on that wisdom which is from above, your Committee proceed, after due consideration, to report the result of their labours, and subsequent deliberation. After a very serious, and frequent perusal of the Third Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons, your Committee are compfslled to differ from them in opinion on many important e:\\\ ? Surely no one can, for a moment, entertain a doubt on the subject. In ni:ie cases out of ten, those restrictions would be more truly beneficial to the landed proprietor himself, than it would be to the most miserable of his tenants. It would, too, in most instances, conduce to the general welfare of the Tnitetl Kingdoms. I am very sure, that we should be con- ferring hapjiiness, i>r, at any rate, lessening misery, by com- pelling the ilegenerate and unworthy sons of the British isles, who forsake lier shores to enrich other states, to spend a uivater portion of their time at home. We should not only Ih> tloing this, but we should be preserving the morals, the i\>nstitutions, the ivputations, perha^is the Uves of themselves, their wives, and their children. \\'ould it not then, be a wiser, a moiv humane, and a more just plan to compel all those, or a majority of then], to reside, at least, a portion of every year on their estates, than to compel those who were lH>rn on tlnxse estates, who would willingly remain and spend their strt>ngt!i and their lives on them, to tnuisport themselves, their wives, and their chiKh*en, to other huids, and to other ivumvtions : pivbiibly to perish by the way, or to lav their Kn\es in vnuvusevratetl ground, in the deptlis of antediluvian Knvsts ^ Could the most unthinking, hanlened, and obdurate adwvtue of emigration, witness one hundredth part of the misery iittendaut u(x>u it, he would not, I am certain, loDg coMtiuue to advocate such a measun?. ■ THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 17 It should be recollected, that though the poor of Ireland have not, like those of England, an inheritance secured to thein by the same power and laws which secure the pos- sessions of the rich to them, the laws of humanity ought to suffice to preserve them from perishing for want in their native country, the produce of which is, in a great measure, engrossed by aliens or natives who have forsaken it. Tiie poor, having no representatives in the counsels of the nations, are more especially thrown upon the care and protection of all the members of the senate. Were those members actuated by proper motives, and directed by enlightened principles, they would be convinced that self interest itself would induce them to make the welfare of the poor a primary consideration. 12. Do you conceive that Ireland possesses within herself the means of affording sufficient employment and maintenance for all her present population ? I conceive that there is not, probably, another country in the world, by nature, so calculated to sustain an abundant population. It is one of the most fertile of all others, abounding with almost every requisite to facilitate agriculture, as well as extensive manufactures and commerce. Its air is salubrious, and its general aspect lovely. 1 3. What, then, do you apprehend is the reason that, with all these advantages to constitute a flourishing kingdom, it should be far inferior in prosperity to others which possess much fewer requisites, and that it should now be alarmingly retrograding ? I have already fully stated that the principal reason is the non-residence of landed proprietors. Their absence neces- sarily withdraws capital from the country. The withdrawing of capital necessarily prevents the increase of confidence. Confidence is essential to the high prosperity of any state; but especially so to that of a commercial and manufacturing state. Confidence is wealth ; it is, while it exists, the same as specie. Whatever of confidence is withdrawn or withheld from circulation serves to impoverish. Confidence carmot exist but where there exists the utmost conviction of stability and security. Capital, confidence, and security, therefore, are essential to the advancement of any state in commerce and manufacture. The absentee landlords withdraw an immense revenue from Ireland. This reduces capital ; the want of capital produces want of employment, and, con- sequently, poverty ; poverty causes misery, inquietude, and. turbulence; these destroy confidence and security, and not only prevent capitalists from resorting thither, but drive those away to other countries who otherwise would remain. This B I!, I t't Hlj THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. absence of capital not only thus prevents Ireland from becom- ing a commercial and manufacturing country, so as to employ its population, but it also prevents it from affording employ- ment to its inhabitants in agriculture. The soil which is cultivated, generally speaking, is wrought in a very slovenly and unproductive way; while immense tracts of country, capable of being made productive land, are suffered to lie nearly useless. By statements laid before the select com- mittee, which have not been disputed, there are nearly five millions of acres capable of cultivation, which are lying thus unproductive. Is it just, is it politic, that the industrious population of a country, thus situated, should be driven, by starvation, to transport themselves and their families to other lands in search of farms and of employment ? Must there not be some radical defect in the laws of a country where this is the case ? 14. Can you state any other reasons than want of capital and confidence, which prevent all this waste land from being cultivated, while there are so many able-bodied men, who are willing to work, without employment ? . In most cases this uncultivated land is not individual pro- perty ; it is common land, or land on which there are various claims. It is generally almost impossible to satisfy, or to bring to coalesce, all those who possess these claims. The expence, too, as well as the trouble, in obtaining and working an enclosure act, is so great as almost generally to deter in Ireland from the attempt. 15. Do you conceive that any mode exists, or could be devised to remove these obstacles ? There can be no doubt of it, if the legislature could clearly see the necessity, and were earnestly desirous of accomplishing the measure. 1 6. Can you state any plan by which you think the object might be attained ? ;, I would propose, that commissioners should be appointed (by act of parliament, of course), who should begin, in the first place, with those waste lands most capable of cultivation, in the districts in which employment was most wanted.. They should ascertain all the claims on such land ; they should fix a price to be allowed to each claimant, and that price should be immediately paid to them. The land would then belong to the state. The commissioners should then divide the land so bought into lots, which lots should be sold by auction to the highest bidder, on condition of its being brought into a state of cultivation within a limited period. ., On such lands (some bogs, for instance), which might THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 19 require a general drainage, a rale should be established, to be paid by each purchaser of land towards the expence to be incurred in effecting the drainage, commissioners being appointed for the purpose. No expence in deeds of convey- ance ought to be incurred, the award of the commissioners giving the title. In short, the expence ought to be defrayed y government where the sales of the lands proved insufficient. I am, however, persuaded, that the sale of the lands would, in general, more than pay the purchase of the rights, and cover the expences. 1 7. You have stated, as your opinion, that it is indispensable for the prosperity of Ireland, that the landed proprietors should reside at least a considerable portion of their time in the country. How, and in what degree, do you conceive that this ought to be done ? This appears to me to be so momentous a question that I must beg to be permitted to consider the subject till to- morrow. You are at liberty to do so. Tuesdai/, Decembei' 18, 1827. Sir John English, in the chair. - EXPERIENCE called in and examined. 18. Are you prepared to inform the committee how, and how far, in your opinion, the landed proprietors in Ireland ou^t to be compelled to reside upon their estates ? The condition to which Ireland is now reduced is such, as I apprehend, was never experienced by any other nation ; / therefore do not possess that knowledge on this subject wlilch I do on most others ; if, then, I now speak hesitatingly, I hope that I shall be excused. I have before stated my conviction, that the future pros- perity of that suffering kingdom must depend upon the resi- dence of the landed proprietors in the country. On this depends the quantity of capital which will be there employed, and the advantageous manner in which it will be so employed. On this, too, will depend the degree of stability, and security, which will be attained, and, consequently, the degree of con- fidence which will be produced and put into circulation. On this, likewise, will depend the extent to which manufactures and commerce will be established and carried on, as well as the progress which will be made in cultivating wastes, and M 2 to THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. ■I l1 improving in agriculture in general. On this, then, it is evident, will primarily depend the prosperity, if not the exist- ence, of Ireland. The disease of Ireland is a vital one : it has been neglected, and trifled with too long ; nothing less powerful than the strongest remedies can now reach the seat of the disorder and effect a cure. While we continue trifling with the complaint, the patient may go mad, or die. There is a remedy, — there is but one — that must be applied freely, and it must be applied soon, or even thai may be too late. You may cut off a limb, but you would not, by that, effect a cure ; and, recollect, if you were afterwards to apply the only remedy, and succeed, that valuable limb, once severed, could never be replaced. Ireland has been bled too much already. Bleeding and lopping off of limbs do not always succeed. The measure, which, in my opinion, is the only one that can effectually benefit Ireland, though an unusual one, is neither dangerous nor violent. It would, I am persuaded, be found, in general, beneficial to the landed proprietor him* self in every respect. His property, and, nine times in ten, his happiness would be increased ; Ireland would not then long be, as it now is, a dreary, half-cultivated, half-depo- pulated country ; without either good roads, good inns, good society, or friendly communication ; a country in which the peace and safety of families are continually in danger; where wretchedness, misery, beggary, and villainy, meet the eye, the ear, or the heart, at every turn. Ireland would then soon resemble England : in many respects it would be greatly su- perior. And who would be the sufferer by this change? Not the land owner, whose property was doubled or trebled by it ; whose rents were regularly paid, instead of not being paid at all ; who was called upon to live a part of his time among tenants, so grateful for their improved condition as to be almost ready to worship him, for there are not more grateful beings in the world than Irishmen. Among respect- able neighbours, all, like himself, privileged to witness, to partake of, and to increase the new-born happiness of all around them. Surely these are not the men who would have cause to murmur or complain; nor are these measures that can be considered as tyrannical or oppressive by any party, especially when it is considered that they are to remedy an evil of so much greater a magnitude. 1 9. By what means do you propose that the residence re- quired shall be enforced; and to what extent carried? i 1 would propose, that every proprietor of a hundred acres of land, or upwards, in Ireland, should be required to reside 21 ■ A THE TESTIMONY OF EXPEIIIENCE. 21 at least four months in the year in the country : that on his failure of so doing, he should be subjected, dunng the ensuing year, to the payment of treble taxes of all liinds ; the collector to be entitled to one per cent, on all the extra taxes so to be collected by him : and further, I would propose, that on the continuance of non-residence during three successive years, the estate should become the property of the next heir, and be regularly transferred to him by deed, subject, of course, to the same conditions. To these general enactments, exemp** tions, under speciBc circumstances, by the approbation of the lord lieutenant, should be allowed. I would farther propose, that any land-owner should be allowed to dispose of his land in any way that he pleased, subject only to these regulations ; and tnat the incumbent of entailed estates should, likewise, be allowed to sell, through the agency of the commissioners, who should apply the proceeds to the purchase of other lands, subject to the same entail, in England or Scotland. These are regulations which have suggested themselves to my mind^ as being likely to be practicable and effective. I must beg leave, however, again to state, that on this subject I am not qualified to speak, as on others, with certainty or full confidence. A great part of the landed property in Ireland has formerly been seized, and transferred to others, by much more violent and oppressive measures than these, greatly to the detriment of the prosperity of the country, and the happiness of the people. . Let it be kept in view, that these comparatively legal, mild, and easy measures, are demanded by imperious necessity, and are intended and, I trust, calculated to insure the future advance- ment of the country in every respect, and the consequent hap- piness and true elevation of all its people. Ireland would, I am persuaded, then, not only rival England, both in manufacture, commerce, and agriculture, but in many instances would excel her. Each country, how- ever, would, while it served itself, benefit the other. Ireland, in becoming a source of supply, would, at the same time, become an extensive mart of consumption for the manufac- tures of England. Great Britain would then be enabled to drive the rest of Europe, in most instances, from the market of the world. I am speaking now, on the supposition that such regulations shall hereafter be enacted on the subject of manufactures in the United Kingdom^ as are called for by tht (at present) injured interest of both employers and employed* On this subject, on which I am fully qualified to spe ?; » The policy of England since the establishment of hev poor rates ; i. e, since the commencement of the rapid increase of her prosperity, instead of encouraging emigration among her people, has alwavs afforded a welcome asylum and field for ji 1. ■II m THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. :i exertion, to all the ingenious outcasts of other nations. At that time she had an abundant, a vagrant, a starving popula- tion ; she, too, had her millions of acres lying waste *, which her people had neither the spirit nor the skill to bring into cultivation. To foreigners she was indebted for renilering the fens of Lincolnshire, and other huge tracts of land, both productive and salubrious. England had then the wisdom, the humanity, the magnanimity, to make a permanent, a certain, and an efficient provision for all her children : — if thev could work, she compelled them to do so ; if they could not, and had no other resource, she compelled them who had property to maintain them. From that time she has never ceased advancing in strength, in respectability, and in pros- perity ; and though, like a mighty inland lake, she has had the waters of innumerable rivers and streamlets pouring into her on all sides, she has never yet overflowed. Her exhala- tions have risen, and have been dispersed by the breath of heaven, over the lands of the whole globe, fertilizing the most distant regions by their renovating influence. The blessing of Almighty God appears evidently to have accompanied, and remained with, that most humane and Christian-Jike provi- sion for the poor ; — I trust that I shall be hereafter afforded an opportunity of enterinjg more at large into the nature and effects of our poor laws, as they have been here administered during much more than two hundred years, because I con- ceive that they occupy a most essential relationship to the pre- sent question. 22. Do you conceive that the establishment of a system of poor laws any thing similar to those of England would be desirable in Ireland ? I not only consider such a measure desirable, but I have long known and declared that it was one indispensable to the advancement of that country in prosperity, and to the pre- vention of extreme misery to the poor there. Even the enforcement of the residence of landed proprietors would, without poor laws, fall far short of producing all the good effects that are both desirable and obtainable. 23. Similar ones do you mean to those of England ? In a great measure so. No other laws that ever were enacted have sustained the fiery trial which they have done. The furnace was not only heated seven times hotter than it was wont to be heated, but that heat has been kept up during almost two centuries, with unabated violence, and yet, they * Daring the last century nearly six millions of acres have been inclosed and cultivated in England. THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 25 remain unhurt; nay, they will come out, I will venture to say, at the last, not only purified, but greatly increased in value. They have been assailed, calumniated, and derided, by all degrees of the people, from the lowest shopkeeper to the highest dignitary and statesman. The wise and the foolish, the knave and the true patriot, have alike been opposed to them. Every man, when he became a legislator ; every minister, when he assumed the reins, was arrayed against the poor laws, and determined to amend or discard them. Most of those legis- lators have in their turns set seriously to work in the attempt. Many of them have persevered in preparing some amendment in the house ; some have even succeeded in getting their pro- posed bills passed into laws. But where are those amending laws now ? They are either repealed, become a dead letter, or are found to be mischievous. The poor laws of England remain, at this day, in all their essential clauses, exactly as the reign of Elizabeth left them. If stronger evidence of the merit and true wisdom of any laws, than has been here afforded in favour of the English poor laws. can be adduced, I shall be glad to know what that evidence is. No one can speak on this sub- ject with the confidence that / can, and on no subject can / speak with greater confidence than on this. I shall only propose one or two alterations of the poor laws for Ireland, as being likely to make the assessment bear more equally on the separate parishes, to be more productive, and to be more easily collected. I would, in the first place, propose, that commissioners should be appointed with powers to levy a shilling rate on all property rateable, as in England, to the poor fund ; and this, as often as circumstances should demand. The rate should be collected in each parish by the overseers of the poor, and be transmitted to the commissioners within three months from the making of the same. Instead of the occupants being chargeable with the rate, it should be paid, in all cases, by the owner of the property. I would then propose, that each parish, as in England, should make, and collect its own rates, as often as such should be required and allowed by the magistrates, but never more than sixpence in the pound at once. That as soon as the sixpenny rate was col- lected, the overseers should be authorised, by sending at the same time the proper vouchers to the commissioners, to draw upon thein for twice the amount of the rate so raised, so that only one third of the money paid in poor rates would be raised in each parish for itself, while two thirds of it would be fur- nished from the general national fund. By this means any very great inequality of burden on different parishes would be avoided. Every rate should be fully completed within , ;ll ' : 11 Ml 26 THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. three months after the passing of the rate, and nobody should be liable, if not proceeded against within that time. This would always make the rate fully productive ; it would save much expense and trouble in the collection, and prevent litigation from mistakes. These are all the important alterations which I have to propose from the English laws. I hppe that I have been able to make myself understood, and that the advantage!! of such alterations will be evident to the gentlemen of the committee. 23. Did you not before propose, that advances should be made from the English government towards the relief of the Irish poor ? J did ; but that was only as a temporary expedient, till other regulations could be adopted, and the poor laws enacted and put in operation. 24. Do you not conceive that the English poor laws, by which from six to eight millions sterling have been collected and expended within the year, are a very oppressive burden to the country, and that they tend materially to retard its advance- ment in prosperity ? Generally speaking, I do consider, that the English poor laws, as I have before stated, have conduced very greatly to increase the prosperity of the nation. Nor are they calculated, ifdvly administeied^ to produce injurious consequences. That the pressure of the poor laws has, at times, been a very heavy burden to particular parishes, and to particular classes, is un- deniable. The regulations which I have proposed are intended to prevent that being the case, to the same extent in Ireland, and, perhaps, it may be right 1 ereafterto adopt the same plan here. The poor rates, however, are so far from being a loss to the nation, that / hn(m they have been the means, hitherto, of constantly enriching her. The money is never expended out of the kingdom, and the oftener money circulates within it the better. A labourer or mechanic paying poor rates, must, and does, receive more wages than he would do if he had no rates to pay; a manufacturer who pays rates must lay on more profit on his goods than he otherwise would, and he does so; the merchant the same : so that for all manufactured goods expotied, a greater sum is paid and brought into this country than otherwise would be, and the country, of course, is so much more enriched. I am aware, that if this caused the goods of English manufacture to be too high for the market, it would lessen the dem and ; that, however, has not yet been the case, nor is it likely to be, if government will but prevent ail peju- dicial combinations, and not themselves interfere and impede THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 27 the free course of trade. The interference of the legislature with restrictions and regulations is always prdudicial. '^ The poor laws are injurious if they are suitered by the mal- administration of them to conduce to idleness. Of themselves they are so far from doing that, that their first object is to promote industry. No able-bodied man, who can get work, can demand relief, nor can he demand any thing but work and a maintenance. When he is furnished with the latter without the former, it is neither his fault nor the fault of the poor laws. All the stagnations of trade and manufacture in this country have hitherto been of a temporary nature. The time may always be confidently looked forwards to, when increased demand will again arrive. Is it not, then, prudent to afford the workmen temporary relief? nay, would it not be madness to do otherwise ? It is the interest of the state to retain the men, at whatever expence, without whom that returning demand could not be answered. If there be danger of the poor rates themselves raising the price of manufactured goods too high, what would a want of workmen do, when the required hands were gone to other rival states, to assist them to drive us from the market ? Short-sighted, indeed, would be a policy like this! 25. But are there not instances where, from peculiar circum- stances, almost the whole of one class of artisans are at once thrown out of a particular species of employment never to return? for instance, the hand-loom weavers, whose art is now almost wholly superseded by the power looms ? Such instances must of necessity occur in a thriving, inge- nious, and spirited manufacturing country like this, when any great and unlooked for improvement has been invented, or when, from change of fashion, or other circumstance, any particular article ceases to be used. In these cases, there is no way but to leave the workmen, who are thereby thrown out of employment in their usual way, to obtain it as soon as they can in some other. In such cases the advantage of Our poor laws are evidently and strongly displayed. Here is a resource at once ready, and fully equal to preserve the sufferers from either perishing or emigrating. In general, the improvement which throws them out of employment, though it may do the same work with a fourth part of the hands, increases em- ployment by increasing demand. This was particularly the case with the spinning jennies. Thousands of common spin- ners were thrown out of work by them at first, and yet, in the end, thousands of workmen more were employed by them, than ever were by the common spinning. The buckle trade, which, forty or fifty years ago, em- ■'■■! I THE TESTIMONY OF EXPEIUENCE. ployed very many thousands of ingenious artizans at great wages, was in a short time almost entirely lost, seemingly for ever. The workmen, however, by degrees got other em- ployment, and though, in both these instances, the complaints, as at present, were loud and deep, they soon ceased either to be heard or uttered. Important improvements in machinery have been, and probably always will, in this country, be greatly advan- tageous, /. e. if the inventors and employers be duly pro- tected. The capital, and the spirit of enterprise and specu- lation are here so superior to what they are in other countries, that we are enabled to avail ourselves of any great improve- ment in a tenfold degree. We thereby get the start in all markets, and are enebled to keep it. But discourage im- provements in machinery, — permit or wink at combination among workmen, — or encourage emigration, and you strike at once at the very root of our superiority. A wise legislature in this country would start at the bare idea of diminishing population ; — their object would be to increase demand, by every means in their power; — not by timid, or half measures, but by daring to obey the dictates of unprejudiced wisdom, without partiality or respect of persons ; — neither deterred by calumny, nor influenced by a desire of obtaining popu- larity or the favour of the great. 26. But do vou not think, that wages of labour are now in general much too low, and not a fair remuneration for the time, and ingenuity of the workman ? To talk of wages being too high, or too low, is to talk foolishly. They are, and must always be regulated by cir- cumstances ; i, e. unless improper means are resorted to, to prevent their natural course, in which case mischief is always the consequence. To talk of regulating wages, unless you had the power of regulating demand, is worse than absurd ; it is injurious. No master can be compelled to give more than he can afford, or more than what is then the market price of labour. If he be deterred from having it on those terms, he will not have it at all, and the consequence is, that the market price falls still lower, because the demand is thereby lessened. All combinations, then, among workmen, are not only unjust, but are always in the end injurious to themselves. A country that is desirous of advancing in manufacture, and keeping competition from the markets, must use every method that is just to be able to undersell others. When demand has thereby been increased, there can be no doubt but that the price of labour will unavoidably rise in proportion. Workmen will be wanted, and every manufacturer, who THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. ^ wants workmen, must give the then advanced market price for them. All that legislators have to do, in these cases, is to take care that both workmen and masters are protected from the bad effects of combinations. In no case, is it allomoahle foi" two or more persons to combine to prevent some other perzonfrom obtaining any thing on the te^ms which he could have done, had they not so combined, I have been the more anxious to im- press these sentiments (truths I call them) upon the com- mittee, because I know their great importance, and because I know that very mistaken ideas on the subject are enter- tained by many legislators, who, without perhaps being sen- sible of it, are biassed by popular feelings and declamations to iavour the self-interested views and intentions of the ignorant and mistaken workmen ; and that, clearly to the injury of the latter. I am, however, so far from thinking that high wages, generally speaking, are advantageous even to artizans, that I kncnso that they are not so ; they neither add to their religious and moral conduct, to their health, usefulness, and respectability, nor to the happiness of either themselves or their families. A man's service rendered to the state is in proportion to the marketable value which his labour has created. The man, then, who earns a guinea by six days* labour, is twice as serviceable to the state as the man that earns the same in three days, because the former will procure twice the marketable value that the other will for his guinea. The probability, too, is, that the latter will not even work three days. Hence a great part of his time is, as I well know, spent in profligate, often wicked, company and practices. His wife and children are neglected and miserable, and, in manu- factures that will admit of it, are compelled to work all the week, whilst he, probably, will not in that case work at all. The scenes that are daily, or rather nightly witnessed, by those who reside in large manufacturing towns, when trade is good, and provisions cheap, are revolting beyond descrip- tion, nay, beyond imagination. That the health of the workmen must, by these practices, suffer greatly, would be conceived, if it were not proved, in all instances, by the annual statements, that the mortality is always much greater at such times than in seasons of both bad trade, and even of scarcity ; while the births, too, are diminished in proportion. The sullen dissatisfaction which is at those times evident, both in the countenances and con- duct of the workmen, bespeaks the absence of every thing like happiness, while the continual attempts to increase, by unlawful Qiid oppressive means, the price of labour beyond all It 80 THE TESTIMONY OF EXPEKIENCE. m possible bounds, are as injurious to themselves and their country as they are to their employers. ' V If the foregoing are the consequences of a flourishing trade, when all the population are kept at home, what would be the case if a vast number of the most orderly and able bodied men had been induced, by mistaken statesmen, to emigrate, at great expence, to other countries? Loud as is now the outcry of want of employment amongst the cotton spinners and weavers, and of the great influx of Irish, it is not much more than two years since advertisements were issued from Stockport *, and other places, inviting the Irish to come over. In a state so extensively manufacturing as this, perpetual fluctuation in demand must inevitably be continually oc- curring ; and if legislators are to undertake to make corre- sponding regulations, they will not only find sufficient em- ployment, but rather more than sufficient ; for by the time that their enactments to suit a want of demand have been brought into operation, an increased demand may have rendered those measures not only unadvisable but utterly impossible. " Leave Trade and Commerce to themselves" ought to be written in large capital letters over the heads of the Speaker, and the Lord Chancellor, in the two Houses of Parliament. !i t ! '! r- J ■< ■ '' Wednesday i December 19, 1827. Sir John English, in the chair. EXPERIENCE called in and examined. 2Y. In stating, that the legislature, by interfering with trade and commerce, generally produced mischievous con- sequences, did you mean to allude especially to some par- ticular instances? Not directly so, though many such might be enumerated. A striking one occurred during the former part of the last year, when a slight panic, which had seized the commercial world in London, from the stoppage of some banking houses, and the failure of several speculating companies, but which would, in all probability, have soon subsided, was raised to the highest pitch, and attended wkh the most dreadful con- sequences, by the interference of the legislature. One of the most impolitic and uncalled for measures was ♦ They stated that they wanted five thousand workmen ; while new niiils were built on every side. THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. SI resorted to; a measure which nothing short of impending de- struction could warrant, was adopted, and, consequently, all confidence in the commercial world was taken away, and confidence there is equal, while it continues, to specie. The effect was most lamentable ; fortunes without number, and in several cases lives were sacrificed by it ; nor have those effects yet ceased to be felt. I mention this instance, which, as being so striking, and of such recent occurrence, will serve strongly to support my assertion. Trade and commerce in this kingdom are so widely extended, so universally operating, of such vast magnitude, and, at the same time, so fluctuating in their nature, that no general laws can be beneficially applicable to them, either in all places, or at all times. It is impossible but that very embarrassing circumstances must frequently arise, both in commercial and manufacturing concerns ; such, however, will generally, in the end, best right themselves. It is inherent in human nature for rulers to think that they can control every thing ; and as the disposition exists, so the attempt will generally be made. This propensity is not confined to the rulers of states, it extends downward, in full force, even to rulers of the lowest classes. It is not, then, to be expected that it can be easily relinquished; it may, however, be in some degree repressed, or usefully directed. It was this propensity, I apprehend, which led Mr. Malthus to imagine, that he could regulate the population of mankind better than it is regulated by the divine ruler. It was this propensity which induced the legislature to conceive that they could benefit the state by promoting the emigration of thousands of the most useful subjects of these realms to other countries; as if to depopulate a country was to enrich it. To show how completely the wisdom of man is foolishness with God, and how vain the effects of the former to frustrate the will of the latter, I can prove, that the means recommended to lessen the population would probably, in the end, increase it. It was clearly shown before the select committee, by several witnesses, and ad- mitted by Mr. Malthus himself, that (extraordinary as the fact may be) God has not only provided for the due and regular supply of successive inhabitants, but that he has, likewise, provided for the extraordinary supply requisite to replace the unusual consumption of particularly destructive times. Hence, within a little while after every occurrence of such devastating seasons, the general population does not appear to have suffered any diminution, but to have increased, at least, in the accustomed ratAo* - v' THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. H Though the late war caused almost innumerable young men (the very genus of population) to quit Ireland, never to return, the population of that country, during the progress of the war, increased in an almost unprecedented degree. Nay, incredible as it may seem, the same, or pretty nearly the same, was the case with France, though one would have imagined that a very great proportion of the young men in that country had been destroyed. After all those greatly desolating pestilences and famines, in which the case has been examined, it has been found, that in a short time it could not be perceived that any check had been thereby given to the regular increase of population. * Mr. Malthus himself states in his evidence, after admitting the above facts, " There is one case in regard to Prussia, where a very great pestilence occurred, and where a very rapid increase of population took place immediately afterwards. In this case, the effects of the great mortality on the subsequent births, deaths, and marriages, distinctly appear in the lists, and are very remarkable." Now dare either Mr. Malthus, or any one else, presume to say, after this, that thei/ could, even if such a measure were desirable, lessen the population of Ireland by any degree of emigration that could be effected ? They might cause a great deal of misery, and do a great deal of mischief, and, after all, in the end, znc7'^a5^ • population even in Ireland. As neither war, pestilence, nor famine, then, are able to frustrate the command of God " to increase and multiply," so neither, it seems, can the very poorest and scantiest supply of food, that will support human nature, do it. It was shown in evidence before the select committee, and acquiesced in by Mr. Malthus, that in those parts of Ireland where the poor wretched beings have nothing throughout the year to subsist upon but a scanty supply of potatoes mixt with water, they not only marry, and have an unusual number of children, but that they themselves are healthy, and that their offspring are lively, active, and thriving, in an uncommon degree. These circumstances are surely enough to set at defiance the speculations of all our theoretical political * John Leslie Foster, Esq., a member of the committee, observes, " I have not a doubt, but that Ireland was more populous at the end of the twenty-five years* war, than it would have been, if they had been years of peace. I beg to observe, that this is not peculiar to Ireland j such was the result upon the condition of Great Britain, and the same thing oc- curred in France, where there was a still greater subtraction of the popu- lation for the armies. The population at the end of the war was greater by five or six millions than at the commencement." THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE* U economists. There seems evidently here, to be " a power above the throne, greater than the throne itself." The farther that man is enabled to search into the hitherto unexamined [)arts of nature, the more is he astonished at the inconceivable diffusion of sensitive life, and, most probably of enjoyment How dare he then presume, that he can better apportion the due degree of human existence to any particular portion of space, than He, who can bestow life and due accommodation on as many living beings within the bulk of a grain of sand, as there are human beings in these United Kingdoms? The apportioning of existence comes not within the province of man ! But I beg pardon for thus unintentionally digressing from the question of the com* mittee ; that, however, I answered pretty fully, in the first place, and, therefore, need not now, probably, s*»y more on the subject. 28 Though you have given it as your opinion, that the legislature had better not interfere in regulations respectinaj trade and commerce, yet did you not intimate that all com- binations ought to be punished by law ? Most certainly I did ; and it is a measure vitally important to the unrestrained ailvancement of liotli trade and commerce in these kingdoms ; most important to the welfare as well as happiness of both masters and workmen. But such laws, — at least such laws as are requisite, — would be no more an interfering with the freedom of trade and commerce, than any other general laws are, which restrain all unjust actions and practices. It is, and must be, unjust for any two men to combine to deprive another of any right which the laws of God and his country allow him. Only let these laws and rights be clearly understood and enforced, and there need no combination laws to restrain either masters or workmen from combining. Combinations among workmen are even more prejudicial to themselves than they are to their masters, and worse, perhaps, for their country than for either. Dr. Murphy, in his evidence before the select committee, speaking of the artizans of Cork, says : " They will not allow a strange workman to come into the city who is not a member of the union. Having the law in their own hands, they per- secute and attack him. They will beat him severely, and in some instances they have put individuals to death. I have heard that more than tisaenty have been killed in this manner in the city." Again : " No tradesman can come into the city, without danger of his life, after getting notice to quit from the committee of the trade to which he belongs." Farther : " It c Si THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. appears to me to have a very bad moral tendency upon the poor. It is very injurious when men of that description are brought togctlicr in masses in public houses : when met there they arc generally influenced by any person who talks a great deal; sucli a man is likely to be an idle fellow; and the tradespeople have generally suffered in their morals since the union of the trades was established ; even within my recollection there is a considerable change in them for the worse." The evils arising from these vile unlawful practices are, in their consequences, beyond all conception ; they strike at the very root of the prosperity of all manufactures. What- ever tends to drive capitalists from trade is greatly injurious to the country. These mistaken and misguided men are doing this most com|)letely. They are rendering the carrying on of any extensive manufacture not only unprofitable, but also exceedingly disgusting, and even dangerous. Hundreds t)f thousands of })ounds, in a good time of trade, are by these bad measures annually lost to the country. Not less, I am persuaded, than a hundred thousand a year is or has been raised and paid by the trade committees throughout the United Kingdoms, to maintain their fellow workmen, in idle- tu'ssy rather than suffer them to work at the then market price of labour, beyond which no one ought to claim. There is not only the money uselessly expended, but there is the loss of the labour of all those who are induced thereby to be idle; \vith the loss, likewise, of all the profits which would have arisen from it. Besides this, the men who are thrown idle, are always thrown into bad company ; they often become profligate, and seduce others ; their health and their morals sufler; and they are probably rendered through life useless, if not baneful, members of society. Numbers of them lose all perception of right and wrong ; they degenerate into common incendiaries ; bring themselves to consider all masters as tyrants ; their vilest passions are easily inflamed ; and they are ready to plan or to execute the most flagitious under- takings. A base love of popularity in some legislators and magis- trates, and tlastardly fear in others, with, perhaps, mistaken lenity in a few, have suffered this destructive and ruinous practice to have gained a footing in these kingdoms, of which It will now be ditheult to deprive it. Masters even dare not prosecute; aiul, when prosecutions are commenced, magis- trates (1 speak generally) dare not convict, or, if they do convict, they dare not punish. Hence prosecutions are laughed at among the combined workmen. In everv manu- f THE TESTIMONY OF GXPERIENCE* ■' > jr- facturitig district there shoul ^ )e a magistrate who is a stranger to the place, appoint«e(i ^overnmpnt, before whom all complaints of combinations, ei ler i /ma^^^ers or workmen^ should be brought. These shoull hte oc isionally changed from one district to another. Fro n resides or native magis- trates the requisite spirited exertions are noi to In xpcctc^ I have seen a great deal of this vile practice ano/w/, viz. — Whether the potatoe-fed population of ireland shall not, by means that are practicable, easy, and unobjectionable, be raised to that — nay, beyond that, of the wheat-fed population of Great Britain ? Is there a human being in existence, wheiher he be English, Scotch, or Irish, possessed of either heart or understanding, who would hesitate a moment about which should be done ? for that the latter^ at all events, is practicable, is most certain. But the fact is, that these committee gentlemen set out with a full persuasion on their own minds, that emigration was the grand succedaneum, and they seem never to have suffered themselves, for a moment, to contemplate any other. In corroboration of my opinion on this subject, I will here produce that of Mr. Malthus himself. He is asked by the select committee, (see fol. 10.) — " What is your opinion of the capability of Ireland to become a very rich and flourishing country?" He answers, " My opinion is, that it has very great capabilities; that it anight be a very rich and very prosperous country ,- and that it might be richer in proportion than England from its greater natural capabilities" If really these gentle- men of the select committee will not now be convinced, I must conclude, that they would not be convinced even though one should rise from the dead to assure them of the fact. How Mr. Malthus, after the decided opinion as given above, of the capability of Ireland to be advanced to a state of riches and prosperity even greater than England, can advise the depriv- ing her of the most effective instrument for the production of such a desirable event, viz. her industrious population, is totally incomprehensible. The utmost that ever could be expected from such a measure, would be the preserving of her in existence, struggling with all her complaints a few years longer, till, perhaps, in a paroxysm of despair, she should make a desperate effort to relieve herself, and either perish in the attempt, or succeed in effecting the most complete emancipation. England had better not drive her to the trial. THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 49 The select committee were not ignorant of the dreadful misery, which is generally experienced by the poor wretches who are driven by want to the last resource of human suffer- ing, — emigration. They themselves give an extract from the Albany Advertiser, Sept. 1826, of which the following is a part : — " The picture of distress which these emigrants present on their arrival here, is almost indescribable. The consequence is, that they are next seen begging through oiu* streets in the most loathsome and abject state of filth and misery. Some provision must be made for these wretched beings, though it is hard that the burden should come upon this city (Albany), as it seems to be at present, for it has lately become their chosen thoroughfare, as they are pouring upon us from the north as well as from the south. Hundreds are drifted down the northern canal, to meet hundreds more floating up the Hudson, and all of them are found in the same destitute condition." Is tiiis a state to which the honest, industrious subjects of a country, capable of being made to surpass England in riches and prosperity, ought to be driven ? To me, who know the evil consequences which must every way result from emigration, it is afflictive to learn, from the evidence of the Lord Bishop of Chester (see fol. 235.), given to the select committee, as chairman of the London committee for the relief of the manufacturing districts, that that committee had agreed to appropriate twenty-five thousand pounds of the fund subscribed throughout this kingdom, by desire of His Majesty, for the relief of artizans, distressed by the temporary stagnation of trade, to promote the emigration of such artizans or labourers. Nay, farther, that they only agreed to do this on the express condition, that fifty thousand pounds more should be added, from some quarter, for the same purpose ; thus depriving the objects whom it was their duty to relieve, of twenty-five thousand pounds of the money which had been subscribed for that purpose, while, at the same time, they were applying that sum, and twice as much beside, viz., in the whole, seventy-five thousand pounds, to deprive tliis country of thousands of that class of her people who are the very life-blood of her prosperity, — of whom, only a short year before, there were not enow to answer the demand, and who, by the time they would be shipped off*, would probably be wanted again. At the very time that the Lord Bishop of Chester, and the London committee, were making this hor- rible, and, as I conceive, unauthorised misapplication of the charitable fund with which they were entrusted, I do know that one very extensive and populous i^anufacturing parish, which had subscribed and remitted a very considerable sum o 50 THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. h ' ^1 to the London committee in hopes of having it repaid ten-fold, to be distributed among their greatlv distressed population, were refused a single farthing, even of the money which they had themselves sent up ; while, I believe, that more than a hundred thousand pounds was sent for distribution into the diocese of Chester. This circumstance, I think, strongly corroborates my former assertion, that legislators and churchmen seldom do good by interfering with trade or commerce. 35. Are there any farther remarks which you have to make relative to Ireland, emigration from whence seems principally to have been recommended by the select committee ? There are a good many desultory ones which have been suggested by the perusal of the evidence adduced before the committee. The principal, and the most painful one is, that, dreadful as the state of the poor of Ireland has long been, it is daily becoming worse, not only from the increase of popula- tion, but, what is still more deplorable, from the practice pretty generally adopting by land owners and their agents, of destroying all the cottages upon their estates, and thereby casting the wretched inhabitants, whose forefathers have, per- haps, for ages possessed them, to seek a living, or die of want where they can. The cold-blooded calculations made on this subject, as regards the interest of the land owners, are, beyond measure, appalling and sickening. It seems, indeed, that the fear of Captain Rock and his system (see question 2609) is almost the only bar to the practice becoming very general. Many of the landlords and their agents dare not turn their tenants off, and, if they did, no others dare enter. Is the violence of the people under these circumstances to be won- dered at ? or is there any probable termination of it to be ex- pected, but either by a better system being speedily adopted, or such a general insurrection of the people as will soon deter- mine the question the one way or the other ? David John Wilson, Esq. says to the question 2618, " Do you consider that the main cause of the distress of the lower orders arises from redundancy of population ?" " Iwon^t say that. I wonH go so far as to say that ; because^ if that popula- tion *mere distributed throughout the country in a judicious man- ner^ I think the country more than ample to support it, not only in comfort, but in comparative affluence with the pr-esent state" What might be the effect of a judicious distribution of these poor wretches seems not to have been tried ; but many inju- dicious means have been, and their effect experienced; for instance, John Maskham Marshall, Esq. says, in answer to question 4185, viz., " Was your own property very much THE TESTIMONY OP EXPERIENCE. , » overpeopled ?" — " Very much. I got rid of eleven hundred, and have still sufficient. Many of them acquired settlements on the estates of the adjoining proprietors, but having no means of acquiring nn honest livelihood, they have been nrccssitated to resort to thieving and vagabond hanits for support." This is one of the many striking instances that occur in that report of the dreadful consequences that do and must arise from this depopulating system. Another witness says (see question '1'323), " We now discover that dairy corws are more profitable than cottager tenants,^ I cannot but think that those cottager tenants might retort, " We should find wolves and hyenas less cruel than absentee landlords" I am aware that landlords have suffered as well as tenonts from the forsaken and wretched state of the country ; but the fault and the remedy rest with the former and not with the latter. The same witness states, in answer to question 4328, "A small farm which had been let about the year 1760, almost as a gift, to an old servant, consisting of six acres of good land ; when it fell out of lease, about three yeors ago, the population amounted to thirty-six persons. That farm is now in the possession of one individual, who has built an excellent farm-house upon it, and lives respectably and com- fortably. What has become of the thirty-six persons who were all removed, I know not." What a strong outline sketch is here presented to the reader for him to fill up, of unfeeling ingratitude, excruciating sufferings, and ruinous devastations ! However comfortably the single occupier might live, one can hardly conceive that the proprietor, if he knew any thing about the matter, could feel quite so comfortable. Sir Henry Parnell, Bart., himself a member of the select committee, in reply to several questions, (see fol. 451.) " I think that one reason, why the progress of clearing estates will be slow, arises from the general resistance of the occupying tenants to that practice, and the means that they possess of deterring landlords from carrying their in- tentions into effect. * * * I believe that there exists naturally in Ireland, so strong a dislike to quit the land upon which a man is born, and such peculiar notions of right and occupancy amongst the people, that a great part of the resistance is owing to these causes; but I believe that the main cause of resistance arises from the people not seeing any other means of providing for their subsistence, than by keeping possession of their land. * * * I am very certain, that the distress has risen to such a height as greatly to increase crimes. The communications that are made to me, make it quite clear, that they are almost driven to the D 2 n^ THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. I ''.i necessity of supporting existence by pilfering, and by ac- quiring food in every sort of irregular way. * • * I have received letters of late, which induce me to believe, that this not only contributes to produce an indisposition among absentees to return to Ireland to reside there; but that it contributes very much to induce those gentlemen who are now resident to become absentees. I have received a letter from a nobleman, who has always been resident on his estate, in which he says, ' What can we do ? Landlords will not relinquish their rents, and, of course, a contest will ensue between them and the people. Government must take their choice between insurrection and emigration; one cannot look forward without dismay ; a residence in Ireland is becoming a burden too great to be borne ; it is bad enough living in the midst of distress ; (while) any attempts to relieve the people only bring shoals of wretched beings from other places ; what must it be in districts (and this will soon be the case every where) in which, in addition to this, the gentry are living in daily apprehensions of their houses being attacked and their families destroyed?'" What an appalling picture of wretchedness and consequent crime is here presented, as correctly drawn from nature by the hand of a master ! Strange, that it should never have occurred to this worthy nobleman, who had always resided upon his estate, (and I am persuaded would have found the residence no hardship, but for the circumstances mentioned,) that if other large landed proprietors were to do the same, all this deeply deplored misery would be at once done away with, and gentlemen, instead of being driven by Jear to become ab- sentees, would soon be drawn by the cords of love, to return from all other lands, to their own too long slighted, forsaken, and injured country ! Friday, December 21. 1827. Sir John English, in the chair. EXPERIENCE called in and examined. 36. Is there any other subject affecting the condition of the poor, and bearing on that of emigration, on which you wish to be heard ? There is one so important as to surpass in interest all those which have hitherto engaged the attention of the committee. I am sorry, that on this subject / have not enjoyed those THE TESTIMONY OF JgXPERIENCE. 53 e e peculiar advantages so fully as on many others, or, so as to enable me to speak decidedly, and without hesitation. I am the more concerned on that account ; because the subject (Religion) is, as far as regards Ireland, attended with Mitisual difficulties ; and is, at the same time, of vital im- portance to her permanent prosperity. It renders it the more difficult to discuss the subject of religion with calmness and impartiality, and at the same time with candour and boldness, because there is no other (strange as it may seem) on which the passions and prejudices of mankind are so generally and firmly enlisted. The com- mittee, however, having called upon me for candid advice on every subject affecting the welfare of the poor, I should be guilty of the basest dereliction of duty, were I either to mislead them, or shrink from stating my sentiments with honest freedom, on a subject infinitely more important to the well-being of the poor than any other, yet, at the same time that I do it with boldness, I trust that I shall do it with the simplicity and humility which the subject demands and inculcates. Religion is the bond which unites man to his Maker. It is the medium of all communication between them. It is the road by which alone the former can pass to the latter. It is, likewise, the most effectual promoter of right conduct amongst all the different classes of society, as well as the most certain advancer in worldly prosperity and securer of earthly felicity. Religion, then, one might naturally think, would be the never failing bond of union among mankind, making men, not only to be of one mind in a house, but in a kingdom. Alas ! he who should really think so, must have had but little intercourse with what is called the Christain world. Religion, or the name of religion, has been made the pretext for more national, and personal enmity, more persecutions, more horrible cruelties between states, between communities, nay, between members of the same neighbourhood and family, than, perhaps, all other subjects of contention whatsoever. Re- ligion, instead of being like a fountain of pure water, flowing continually, at all seasons, with unabating copiousness, from the foot of the granite rock, refreshing the fertile plain through which it passes in its way to the ocean, to which the herds and the flocks can at all times resort for refreshment, and with which the weary and fainting traveller can assuage his thirst, or the stripling and the child enliven and invigorate themselves with safety ; instead of being like this, it resembles the torrent collected, amidst tempests on the mountain top, which, dash- ing from rock to rock, foams and roars, and threatens distruc- 54 THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. t tion to whatever is opposed to its turbulent course. Neither the temple, the palace, nor the cottage is safe from its resistless power. Even man and his works are often swept away by its violence from the face of the earth. Nothing serves so strongly to display the evil tendency of corrupt human nature, as the constant attempts which man is making to change the nature of that, whose every part is lovely, and whose whole is perfection. Instead of letting religion re- main as it came from the hands of its Divine Founder, the bond of love and union among mankind, and the connecting link between man and his Creator; a pure principle operating in the heart, and producing the blessed fruits of a holy, peaceable, and useful life ; instead of letting it remain thus, man has converted it into an instrument wherewith to gratify all the evil propensities of his nature, "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life." When principles and practices such as these, are substituted for the pure, simple, and spiritual religion of Jesus Christ, is it to be wondered at that the fruits of such a corrupt tree should be bad ? Is it to be wondered at, that the heathen, instead of exclaiming as of old, " See how these Christians love one another," should now say, " Behold how the Christians hate one another." On ob- serving and considering these things, one is ready to proclaim with the poet, that ^*^' "' (( - 1! ,; cl Religion's pomp is the grace of art. She dwells not in walls of stone. But flees afar from the hollow heart. That worships in form alone. Though the notes be grand, and the forms profound. Though kings may consecrate. She scorns the purple and the ground. Where no heart-offerings wait. Give »Me the Temple of earth and sky, With the purple of pride forgot; When the soul springs upward cxultingly. And the trick of art is not. By the cra^y»y rock on the sea-beat shore, To the music of the wave ; Or nigh by the foaming torrents' roar. Where tall pines darkly wave. Or give me the smiling green wood side. With the singing of the stream; While the winds, that o* 3r the dark woods ride. Soft whisper the Hol^ Name. When nature is worshipping around. In harmony of praise. With chearful heart, and with gladsome sound, HIM of Eternal days." THIS TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 55 Unhappily for Ireland, religion, from peculiar circumstances^ seems there to be likely to continue a never-failing source of rancorous hatred, contention, and other most injurious conse- quences. There the religion of the state is not the religion of the people. Harmony never can prevail where the majority are in subjection to the minority. In religion this must al- ways be most strongly perceived. In Ireland, the majority of the nation are not only compelled to the expensive support of a splendid religious establishment of which they cannot par- take, but also of one which they believe to be fatally erroneous. Over and above this, the large national revenue, which is now appropriated to the maintenance of the religion of the minority, was originally contributed to support the religion of the ma- jority, which was then the religion of the state. Of this they were dispossessed (as formerly of the kingdom,) by the right of conquest. That a portion of a people, situated as the catholic majority are in Ireland, should be dissatisfied, is inevitable; that they should be perpetually seeking opportunities to rid themselves of the humiliating and soul-harrowing burden of contributing to support, as they conceive, the predominance of error to the repression of the truth, is to be expected ; nay, that they should seek to recover their long lost possessions is not to be won- dered at. Here, then, is a great difficulty and hinderance, as regards Ireland, in effectually ameliorating the condition of the lower classes, by far the greater number of whom are Roman Catholics. To conciliate, and thereby remove, as far as human means can do it, this difficulty, the protestant ascendancy is loudly called upon by every claim of justice, of humanity, of religion, and of sound policy. To what length the concessions ought to be carried, /am not qualified to determine; it is a new case. Nothing, however, I am sure, but what would endan- ger the safety of the state ought to limit those concessions. 37. Are there any other observations which have occurred to you as necessary to lay before the committee ? Since I was last examined, my attention has been called in an especial manner to "The 15th Report of the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the state of the Courts of Justice in Ireland." The further observations, which I now wish to make, have arisen from that investigation. I am very certain, that there exists, at this time, in all classes throughout En- gland, a sincere desire of serving Ireland, &ndtha.tf& disinterested desire. Nevertheless, a desire alone will not answer the pur- pose ; nor will any measure, I am more and more convinced, short of those before recommended by me, prove effective. Poor Ireland seems always to have been unfortunately se THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 1' constituted and situated ; — too large and powerful to submit, unresistingly, to become a province of England ; too near to be suffered to remain independent, unmolested and at peace ; and too little, too weak and too divided, to be able to maintain her independence by force of arms. As soon, therefore, as England felt herself strong enough, the conquest of Ireland, under our Henry II., was attempted, and partially effected. Since that time (though long possess- ing chiefs and petty kings of her own,) she has never become an independent kingdom, but she has never ceased to feel that she ought to be free, or to make partial and ineffectual efforts to become so. These efforts have frequently led to the most horrible excess of cruelty and oppression. The stronger power not only found it desirable to suppress this continual annoyance, but likewise found it convenient to have the disposal of the confiscated estates of the rebellious chiefs, who were often, it is very clear, driven, or induced, to rebel- lion, for the sole purpose of forfeiture. After the reformation in England, religion became the plea for farther persecution and confiscation. During the usurpation of Cromwell, a bloody contest was waged between the old English occupants and the new comers, clainiing and enforcing settlements. After the Revolution, during the reign of William III., un- happy Ireland was "more fully than ever subdued,^and a much greater portion of her territories portioned out by a strong military government among the favourites or partisans of that monarch, aliens to Ireland. 1 have thought it desirable thus briefly to state these few well-known facts, to show the impossibility, as before stated, of Ireland, under such circumstances, being ever likely to maintain a large population while her revenue continued, in a great measure, the property of aliens, and expended by them in other countries. I have, farther, been induced to do this to account for the great deterioration, which, from the Report alluded to, has evidently taken place pretty generally among the remaining resident gent7y. This circumstance has been urged as a proof, that the poor of Ireland, ill as they are off, would be still more so, had they more resident gentry among them. It will be easy to show, hereafter, the fallacy of this attempt. At present, I will endeavour to make it appear, from the Report, and my own knowledge, that such deterioration is the fact. In the first place, I will beg leave to state the evidence of several sub-sheriffs on the subject; this evidence may be the more readily admitted when it is considered that they are, m a great measure, accusing their own body. Mr. John THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. n [or ey Ihe Ihe ^ce be Ire, Ihn Burke, under-sheriff 3f Mayo, states, that *^ of six embarrassed persons who are enabled to evade process, four are magis- trates." Mr. John Cuthbert, under-sheriff of the county of Limerick, states, that " among the persons in the county of Limerick who had been able to avoid the execution of writs against them, there were many in the rank of gentlemen, con* siderably more than twenty, and among those, seven or eight were magistrates" He farther states, that such persons appear to be living at great expense, with establishments of their own; and that they avoid the arrest by constantly keeping their doors closed. He is then asked, " Are mani/ of the gentry of the county of Limerick so circumstanced ?" He replies, " On my oath, / consider the majority!" Mr. John Smith, under- sheriff, county Gal way, states, that though lie does not recol- lect above seven or eight instances in that county, of persons so enabled to set the law at defiance, four of the number are magistrates. " How," it may be asked, " how are they enabled to do this ?" It is stated in evidence, " by favour of the sub-sheriflF;" (the ofHce of high-sheriff being little more than nominal) for which accommodation they pay him a commission, or, in other words, bribe him, I will now, with permission, repur to the character and con- duct of grajid juries, the nature of whose duties is very exten- sive in Ireland. To them are referred all matters relating to the making and repairing of all roads, bridges, gaols, court houses, prisons, adjudging insurrectionary compensation, the appointment of county officers, and their salaries, and a great variety of other matters ; yet are all their consultations, as well as their determination come to, with closed doors. The magistrates are appointed to enforce these decrees, without any right to dispute them. The grand jury are appointed by the high sheriff, and, of course, from the class of gentry. The evidence given before the commissioners, goes clearly to prove the very great and shameful abuse of these powers by grand juries, and that almost generally. I do not take into account the evidence of self-interested or prejudiced witnesses, but rely solely on that of those who evidently wish to speak most fa- vourably of them. From all these it appears that the selfishness, not to say dishonesty, of grand juries, in the expenditure of the public money is, beyond all conception, disgusting and injurious. Jobbing, as it is called, is, indeed, now too common to be much noticed ; i, e, making, or professing to make, public roads, either where none are wanted, or where they are never made at all, or made in a way to be little better for making. !• 58 THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 1 and all this for the purpose of giving a job to persons indebted to them for rent or otherwise. Nay, in some instances, domain or garden walls have been built with the money granted by presentment. The tyranny of the resident Irish landlords, generally speaking, is in this country, in these days, almost incredible. This they are enabled to exercise from the power which they possess of immediatelij distraining for even current 7'efit. By this means they can and do compel their tenants to work, either for themselves or others, at the prices which they (the landlords) fix, or, indeed, to do any thing that the landlord pleases. Mr. Nimmo, the civil engineer, on being asked, " Has this practice existed to a considerable extent?" an- swers : " I believe it is universal, both in the south and in the west, and that by very humane landlords. I believe that it exists from Cape Clear to the Giant's Causeway, but chiefly in Munster and Connaught." By this means, too, they are compelled not only to give their vote at elections, as com- manded by their landlords, but even to swear to having a vote when they know that they have none. Nay, such is the abjectness to which they are reduced, that it is no uncommon thing for them, not only to solicit favours from their landlords on their knees, but also to return thanks in the same position. One respectable witness on teing asked, " Do you think that that submissiveness arises from fear or respect?" answers, ** I think that it is carried beyond proper respect. I think that they have been unused to fair dealing from the upper orders, and that when they get it they are astonished and gratified beyond measure !" It, indeed, seems, that if the demoralization of the lower orders were the object pursued by the higher, they could scarcely have effected it more com- pletely. Mr. M'Carthy, a magistrate resident in the county of Cork, says, " In several instances a disregard to an oath has been encouraged both by the Irish gentlemen, and, I must say, the Irish clergy of both persuasions, fc t electioneer- ing purposes." Thus debased and oppressed below the condition of the serfs and villeii):> of the worst of feudal tyrants, is it to be won- dered at that they are tiiought unentitled to that justice which the higher orders can obtain, or that the magistrates, who are among their oppressors, should refuse it to them ? Not only subornation, but compulsion of perjury, seems to be far from uncommon. Dr. O'Brien says, " They consider themselves as the slaves of their landlords; they consider that they have iio free will, and on occasions of elections I have myself wit- nessed the tears of these poor creatures going to the county ^ V THE TESTIMONY OF EXPERIENCE. 59 town to give their vote against what they called their con- sciences." A very strong and general impression rests on the minds of the lower orders of the Irish, that there exists no law for them beyond the will of the magistrate. This can only have arisen from its being generally found practically true. The evidence adduced before the coiuknissioncrs proves this to be so. Major Warburton, a soldier and a magistrate of a dif- ferent character, states, that " While I was at Kilrush I appointed three days in each week to hear complaints ; and I assure the committee, that sometimes the people would stay till ten o'clock at night, and come again in the morning. I have had hundreds. I have known some come thirty miles, passing many local magistrates." Mr. O'Connel says, " I never knew a complaint of an officer in the army who was a magistrate." Tlivj sale of justice, or rather injustice, by what are called trading magistrates, /. e, those who sell it to the highest bidder, has become so notorious, that it has of late years been recommended by government, through the judges, that *•' hall door justice" should be discontinued to be admi- nistered, and that the magistrates should only act when three or four together, in what is termed petty sessions. Now all this dreadful misconduct of the hitrher classes of the resident land-owners in Ireland, viz, the sub-sheriiFs, the grand juries, and the magistrates, has been adduced by the. advocates of absentism, to prove that the lower classes are^ really better off* (1 am sure I do not know how they could be xmrse off",) than if they had them all living among them. They instance, too, the tenants upon the estates of the Duke of Devonshire and Earl Fitzwilliam, as being better off' than those of by far the greater number of resident land owners. They admit, for the fact cannot be controverted, that it is impossible to conceive a state of greater wretchedness than that of the lowest classes in Ireland at this time. They admit, too, that capital and confidence are essential to any effectual and extensive improvement in their condition, and yet they advocate the withdrawing of capital, and the consequent banishment of confidence. These gentlemen cannot perceive, that it is the non-residence of almost all the most opulent and most respectable land-owners from the country, that throws all these offices of trust and importance into the hands of the profligate, the unprirxipled, and the needy land owners, who, unchecked by the proximity, the observation, and the example of higher and better characters, can exercise their cupidity and tyranny with impunity. In fact, the present system is almost as injurious to the interests of the landlords, as to aa TUB TSMnif^lfy av BXfSmiBllOB* n ;i: hi htn thftt of the tenants, y I shpuld apprehend, that the advocatei of absentism themselves- will hardly affirm, that even the tenants of the Duke of Devonshire, or of Lord Fitzwilliam, would not be still l)etter ofi^ were those noblemen resident m ffreat part of the year on their estates. What, then, would be the improved condition of those who reside on the estates of highly opulent and respectable absentee land-owners, who leave their estates entirely to the unchecked mtV-niunagement of middle-men, were ikej/ to change their impolitic system. The fact is, that the state of society in Ireland, in consequence of the dreadful poverty and oppression of the lower classes, has become so uncomfortable and so unsafe, that even the greater part of the native proprietors are thereby driven to reside in other countries. I can, however, tell these gentle- men, that there are still, even at this day, highly opulent and respectable characters, both gentlemen and noblemen, who. have always been residents, and on whose estates the tenants and labourers are as orderly, as industrious, as respectable, and as comfortable, as the same classes are in England. 1 know, that during the late disturbances, the most disturbed districts were those where there were resident proprietors ; and can this be wondered at, after we have seer .he character and conduct of the generality of the now resid ■ ts ? Let the conditions, the character, and the conduct of 'esident pro- prietors be changed, and the whole of them live on tneir estates, and we shall soon see the attachment of their tenants return, for there is not on earth a more grateful people than the Irish ; though, I trust, that they will not then think it ne- cessary to go down upon their knees to man to express dieir obligations. *■ i J i lUl vd 'V.> ■ t . J w *** -^ . . i f THB ZND. .,t. 1 ' LoHBONt Trinted by A. & II. SpottUvoode, Ncw.Strfft-Squarc. m Si