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32X

CaadL

/i.

DEBATE IN THE SENATE

ON THE

^ana&n §mfi{ |laitoag*

THE GOVERNMENT POLICY CRITICISED.

The following is a reprint from the
Official Report of the Debate in the Se-
nate on the Policy of the GoTsnuaent
retpeotiog the Pacific Railway :

Monday, Mai^ 20.

THH CANADIAN PACIFIC BAIbWAY.

Hon. Mr. CAREALL moved, "That
the construction of the Pacific Railway
having formed the principal condition
upon which British Columbia entered the
Canadian Confederation, every reasonable
eifort should hare been made by the
Gxivernment of the Dominion to satisfy
the people of that Province that fwtb
would be kept with them ; but this
House regrets to find that whilst incurring,
or ready to incur, immediato expenditures
of several millicnH of dollars not needed,
or of doubtful utility, the Government
IWB failed to proceed vigorously with the
cona^ruction of our great natioubl inter-
ooeanio railway, which is so essential to
the material advancement of all the Pro-
vinces of the Domihlon, as ^ell as to the
early consolidation of xioUtical and social
union among the whole i>aopIe."— He said
he would claim the respecttul attention of
the House on this salnect. He might be
aomewbat (Uscursivei but he ntuki cMm
the indulgence of hon. gentlemen, ioas-
muoh as he had troubled tlie House very
Uttie during thA^pfiBsest sessipa. More-
over, the Bulotject had grown to be of

ntch momentous proportions, that it was
watobed with intense interest at i anxiety
by those who were instrumental in con-
summating the confederation between
Britiah Columbia and the older provinces.
They had watoh<°d with a great deal of
interest and anxiety the proceeding as
the terms were being negotiated in Eng-
land by Sir George Cartier and Hon. Wm.
Maodougall for th? acquisition of the
North-West Territories, and at" the same
time they endeavoured to overcome the
opposition tof those who w^ere adverse to
the entrance of British Columbia into the
scheme of Confederation. Those who
composed the population of that Proviuoe
at that time might be divided into three
classes :— The Canadian section, who were
very large, and. devoted to their flag tauL
their country, and who felt that it wtm of
the first importance, if the Dominion was
ever to be a success, that Britiah Colom'
bia should become a portion of the Con-
federation at as e^rly a moment as pes-
Btble. The Hudson Bay Company ■»- a
wealthy, powerful oorj^oration, posseacihg
all the influence acquu-ed by many yean
of control in that country, and who from
Conservative notions were opposed to
Confederation, as they wished to hold
the odony for as long ejpeiiod M jpceuUe
as a fur preserve. They mtf fMti|re
opponents of the soheme of Oenfederi-
tSm. Then t£ere were the offi^aie wlio^
received tbeir appointments fixini Bpwiii^

MliiMM

tititiiiUmt

■ne^

idii«iiiiiiilliiil

ing Street, who fougbt tooth and nail
against the acqiiiBition of that territory by
the Dominion of Canada : and tlioso who
worked with the sole object of Confedera
tion in view, and, in order to soften the
opposition and malevolence of their op-
ponents, found it necessary to discuss the
matter on a fiiioncial basis, and prove that
British Columbia would be financially
benefitted by entering the Confederation.
Among the strongest reasons urged in
/avour of their giving their assent to the
incorporation of that Province with the
Dominion, was, that a railroad would be
built across the Continent; that it had
been promised when Nova Scotia and
New Brunswick entered the Confedera-
tion, and if the people of British Colum-
bia wished to make the Dominion a har-
monious whole, the railway should ter-
minate on the Pacific. Amongst the
strongest reasons which prompted other
loyal Canadians, as well as himself— and
no man surpassed him in loyalty to the
national flag— was, that emissaries from
the United States had come amongst
them, and were pressing them to annex
with the Republic. One of these gentle-
men, while at Victoria, said the policy of
the United States in purchasing Alaska
was to consummate the absorption of
British Coluiabia by the Republic. This
hastened the actions of those who were
working in favour of Confederation. A
delegation came to Ottawa, and the con-
ditions upon which that Province would
become a part of the Dominion were laid
before tiie Government. These condi-
tions were then submitted to a Committee
of the Privy Council, consisting of Sir
George Cartier, Sir Francis Hinoks, and
Hon. Mr. Tilley, on the part of the
Canadian Qovemment, and the three
delegates— tha present Governor of Bri-
tish Columbia, Dr. Helmukeu, and him-
self (Mr. Carrall). At that time Sir John
Maodonald was at the point of death,
and he was not responsible personally
for the terms, although bis Cabmet were
responsible to the world for them. They
discussed all these questions carefully
and frankly as any gentleman would
under such important circmnstances.
The construction of a graving dock was
one of the conditionB submitted, and the
Canadian Government were asked to give
a guarantee of five per cent, on £100,000
sterling in ten years for the purpose. It
was thought by some of the British Col-
umbians that the Canadian tarifi being
higher than the Columbian tariff, they
might get permission to allow the Colum-

bian tariff to remain in force for a period
of ten years, unless the Ijejriiiature of
that Province thought differently. To
make the conditions more harmonious,
they agr3ed upon ten yonrs as the limit
for the c . nstruction of the Canadian Pacific
Railway. He had stated on a pievioua
occasion in this Chamber, and he desired
to repeat it now, as one of the deiegatea
who were present on that occasion, that
that ten years was not put info the tcnna
of Union as an absolute limit for the con-
struction of the railway, but it was put
there as a bona fides that the Government
would commence the road, and carry it
on to completion as quickly as could bo
without injury to the interests of the
country. He appealed to the reiiorter
to take down his words correctly as he
stood up in justification of the course pur-
sued by the late Government on this
question. Then as to the commencement
of the construction of the road, he had
thought tlie time was rather short, but
they thought thoy knew more about the
country than subsequent events jjroved
they did know. The late (iovernment
had been reviled and charged with jeo-
pardizing the future of the Dominion by
giving such ruinous terms, and they were
accused of breach of faith . He appealed
to hon. gentlemen in vindication of the
late Government if they had not done
all they could to keep faith with British
Columbia, when they had their surveyors
at work in that Province before it was a
part and parcel of the Confederation. The
news brought back by the telegraph to
British Columbia produced a reaction in
favour of Confederat ion . Geographically
speaking, the Dominion, in the accession
of that Province, obtained a seaboard in
the West, without which we could in no
sense compote with a nation like the
United States ; and iu the Confederation
of British Columbia with the Dominion
the late Government achieved a victory
in the interests of the Dominion as im-
portant as that which Wolfe achieved at
Quebec. The railway itself was locked
upon as a great national undertaking— a
natioual necessity; and the British Col-
umbians understood that it was actually,
prospectively, and imfdiedly to be con-
structed to the base of the Rocky Moun-
tains, whether British Columbia came hito
the. Confederation or not. What would
hav^ been the position of the great West
to-day had there been a railway continued
in there long ago ? H Lord Selkirk, who
started a settlement there many years
since, bftd JKone with the same energy to

any of ILo countries on the seaboard, like
California, ( iape Town, or AustmUa, where
they would have the facilities of railway
or water transportation, he ventured to
Sivy the settlement to day would have been
a populous and thriving colony. Then
came a distressing period in the history
of the Dominion— the failure of the Allan
Bcbeme to build the railway. He would
not challenge the sympathy of hon. gentle-
men in this room in response to that, but
he would express bis own individual
opinion, when he said he looked upon the
failure of the Allan scheme as a national
calamity. It was a i)relude to the fall of
Sir John Macdonald's Government That
Government, whatever their policy, wore,
with respect to their tariff or their foreign
policy, straightforward to British Colum-
bia. The new Government came into
power, and the first etepa they t'ok— be
desired to speak more kindly of them
than his duty to his Province would per-
mit-was to concoct the Edgar mission.
He had no doubt that all hon. gentlemen
were conversant with the details of that
mission; but as their minds bad been
occupied vvith so many subjects since
then, he desired to make an alliision to it.
It was well understood by the people of
British Columbia that they were not to
insist that the railway was to be com-
pleted in ton years ; but the Government I
wished to make a point out of it, and
hence the Edgar mission was undertaken
to enable the Ministry to go to the people
of Ontario and say :— " We have gone to
British Columbia, and we have relieved
the country of the terms imposed on them
by the late Government ; we have made
better terms with British Columbia, and
saved the Dominion." They sent Mr.
Edfisar over, uncredentialled, to negotiate
with the Provincial Government; but
when he was asked to show his authority
he refused to do so. When the question
was asked the Premier if he knew Mr.
Sdgar did not present his credentials, the
Premier's reply, as given in the House of
Commons, was—" I became aware of it a
week ago." lie coquetted with Cjlum-
bians to endeavour to make them believe
in the honeatyand eamestness of purpose
of the present Government, and beguile
them into making some proposition whiah
could be used in the interests of the He-
form party. These negotiations were not
carried on with much grace or propriety
on either side, and the Premier of the
Dominion exhibited a great deai of petu-
lance and irritation, and broke on all
negotiations by abruptly recalling his

ambassador. That ended the Edgar
migsion. Then, of course, the people
who had discovered that he had coma
there simply to spy out the countrj', and
without power to enter into any negotia-
tions, felt considerable resentment at
the Government and the people of
(.'anada. They <!aw iit, in their local
legislative wisdom, to come to Ottawa
for orders, and the Provincial Premier
came ea a delegate to negotiate with the
Premier here, but without resulting in
a settlement satisfactory to either party
outside of the oii;;inal contract. The
British North American Act provides,
that on the admission of a Province into
the Dominion it should bo on the jomt
address of the two contracting parties — -
the Imperial tiovernment, and, as it
were, stands god-mother for the good
faith of the Acts of the Dominion towards
the smaller Province. So British Colum-
bia naturally referred the matter in dis-
pute to the Imperial Government, which
resulted in what is known as the "Oarniu*-
von compromise." The original terms of
the tinion in respect to the railway clause,
the one more particularly under discus-
sion, Bays : —

" The Govcrnniont of tho Dominion under-
itike to procure the commencement within
two years from the date of tlie union of tlie
construction of a riillway from tlio I'act.tlc
towards the Rocky Jlountalns, and from sucl^
point as may be selected oast of tho Itocky
Mountains towards the Pacific, to connect the
sea-board of Urltisli Columbia, and further to
secure the completion of such railwaywlthin
ten years from the date of union."

The matter was referred to Lord Car-
narvon by the consent of both parties,
and he thought his Lordship volunteered
and was accepted as arbitrator. In the
second clause of bis despatch lord Car-
narvon took the ground that the work
had not bsen proceeled with in accordance
with the terms agreed to at the lioiuof
union. The despatch read :

" That tho Dominion Government should
GKKATLY iNCREAUK the strenKtli of tho tiur-
veylng parties on the mainland, and that
they should undortaltc to expend on the sur-
veys, If neeossary for the speedy completion
of tlie worli, if not an equal share to that
which they would expend on the railway It-
self if it were in actual course of construction,
at all events some considerable deOulto \ninl-
mum amount."

The effect of Lord Carnarvon's oomp.'o-
mise was, that the Esquimau and Nan-
aimo Railway should be built, whether
or not it should become part and parcel
of the trans-continental road. AmoaiK
other things, 'be instrument provided
that .not les than $2,000,000 annuetUy
should be ex^ nded in British Ooluod;^

towards thfl oonatrijctinn of the Pacific
Ridlwav. ft was understood that this
wrangnment was generally satisfactory to
the peop'o of Canada a<4 it was to the
people of the Pjovince. Ue waa reminded
of the burning eloquence of the Minister
of Justice on this question, who, in a
momeut of anger, votod against the Bill.
Qhe British Columbians paid the penalty
of his anger, and had sutfered from it on
many other occasions; but the dissatis-
faction which permeated the chambers of
that hon. gentleman's mind also spread
to this House, and the Bill was defeated
by a minority of two followers of the hen.
gentJemen opposite. Erery one in the
ftovinoe was confident the Carnarvon
compromise would be carried out, but the
next thing they got was the Minute of
Council ot the tiOlh of September. That
minute, after its pasf^ge, was detained
Mven weeks liefore being sent to British
Columbia. The contents of timt docu-
Snent were rather remarkable, and an idea
of their nature could best be gathered
from tho following extract : —

"It would Kcem reasonable tliat tlio people
Of llritioh Columbia Hhould coimtruet this
work themselves, or (If they Ihlnk other local

finblic works more ivtlvantagDOUs) .shoulil, In
len of this, themselves undertake such other
Jocttl public works, and that the comixmsa-
tlon to bo given them by Canada for any
delays which may take place In the con-
struction of the Pacific Railway should be In
the form of cash bonus, to bo applied towards
the local railway, or such other local works as
the lioglslaturc of British Columbia may un-
dertake, Canada also surrendering any claim
to lands which may have been reserved In
Vaucouvei Island for railway purposes."

When that minute arrived in the Pro-
Tince it reoeived the attention of the best
aainds among them, but no one could tell
what it meant. The only conclusion that
oould be arrived at was, that the sum of
$750,000 was offered for the relinquish-
ment of the Esquimau and ^'aQaimo
Railway. Had the document been less
ambiguoiis and more frank, their ordinary
intellects might have gtasped its con-
tents, and probably have seen something
else in it, ~ Complaint had been made a.s
to the language of the rejoinder, but
there was no desire to wound anybody,
and it was at least as respectful in tenor
as the minute which the Dominion Gov-
ernment sent in reply. The Olobe at first
took the view that the $750,000 was for
oompeniation for the abandonment of the
■oheme; but a few days subsequently it
Itave a different 'uterpretation, which
showed, the great difficulty even the
friondfl of the Government bad in guagmg
its exact purport. The stand taken by

Ministers was, that there was no money
to devote to the work What had become
of the Cart Wright loan, on the guarantee
that 8 r .Fohn Mocdonald got from the
British Government with respect to the
Washington Treaty V The money hod to
be expended for railways.

Hon. Mr. .SCOTT— And canals.

Hon. Mr. CAllKALL— The Canadian

Pacific Railway. He would venture to

show it. The minute from this great

Dominion of Canada to a small province

had the following passage, which was

sufficient to irritate any peoi)le, and

would justify any disrespectful remarks

(if there were any) in the rejoinder : —

"The Committee cannot but observe that
the spirit which, Ignoring the general welfare
and the Importance to the whole of Canada of
avoiding (fisaster from a premature com-
mencement and a reckless prosecution of tho
Pacific Ilallway, presses so urgently for an
enormous expenalturo with a view to reu|)
vat't profits for the small population amongst
which It is to be made, Is hardly calculated to
Induce tive people of Canada to second tho
Administration to redeem as far as thoy can
tlie appalling obligations l<> which, by the
terms of union, the country was committed.
The Committee remark with regret that the
Assembly of Brltlsli Columbia should have
expressed their (mtlri' agreement with the
views and statements set forth in the minute
of the Kxecutlve Council of that Province,
dated January 4th, 187(1, which, besides some
allegations and arguments substantially re-
peated In the utldress, contains, with roferenoo
to the transmission of the minute of Council
of (September 2Uth last, imputations upon tlie
honour and good faith of tho Canadian Gov-
ernment so gross that they must decline to
discuss It."

He could not regard the intention of
I the minute otherwise than tminientionl,
{and that the present British Columbia
Government bad made a grave and per-
haps unpardonable error in this matter.
They should have acted candidly and
fairly, and if unable to arrive at a more
satisfactory conclusion, should have fallen
back upon tiie reserve supply of media-
tion in Downing Street. This policy had
had a damaging eft'ect upon British Col-
umbia in more ways than one: it had
prevented a great deal of settlement as
well as the development of the coal
mines.' The public utterances of states-
men had also boen of a character calcu-
lated to irritate the people of the pro-
vince and discourage loyalty. Men of
gigantic, herculean intellect, like the
ilinister of Justice, who should teaith
the people to practise forbearance or
Christian charity, had used language (fa
a public platform at Aurora unbecoming
to any statesman cr public man. He
said : —

" If under all these circumstance the Colum-
bians were to say ' You must go on ai^J flutsh

donejr
Bootue

the
the
Md to

Radian

re to

great

ovinoe

was

w, and

Imarks

nilsrnllwny afcordlng to thn tormH or tuko I collector told s friend of bis that it
theiiU<>rimtlvcof relciiKlnK im lioin the Con- *50nOOO un in tiovt^mhtsr nnil ttiAl
foderiitlon,' I would take the altcrnattvo. »OUU,UUU up 10 XNOvemuer, anu Uiai

Suoh an expression with refereuce to a
Binall province, having; but a nine voiced
speakint; power in Parliament was un-
manly."

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— He was not a mem-
ber of the Cabinet then ; he was respon-
eible to no one but himself for his language

Hon. Mr. GAKKALIj said he quoted
this as an illustration of the utterances
of public men on this queBtion. llie
spe<>ch continued: —

" I liolleve that Ih tlic vlPW of thn ppoplo of
thlH i-oiintry, and It may nn well bo plainly
Ktutcd. bccauMe such a plain statement ls(tlu'
very tnlnK which will prevent British Colum-
bians from maklnK Bueh extravagant de-
mands. If these 2,(KJ0 men understand that
the people of Canada are prepared, In prefer-
«nieo to compllaneo with their various de-
mands, to let them go, and to have them build
the Columbian section with their 10,000 people,
Ihelr tone shall be more moderate, and we
f hall hear no more talk about secession. The
principal poi'sou who has spoken hitherto Is
Hlr John Macdonald, who almost Invited It In
his election speech during the late contest.
They won't secede ; they know bettor. Should
thoy leave tlic Confederation, the Confedera-
tion would survive and they would lose their
money. (Laughter.) With regard to the sec-
tions of the railway which Involve the com-
munication between our eastern seaboard and
our great Northwest, the utmost dlllgenoc Is
being used to put tlioni under contract.''

In the same speech the hon. gentle-
man went on to speak contemptuously of
the resources of British Columbia. Now,
he professed a much more comprehensive
knowledge of the country than the Minis-
ter of Justice, and he could state that it
was wealthy and rich in everything which
formed the elements of a great nation. It
was prosperous too. Its exports of gold
amount^ed to $3,00ft,0(J0, and its coal ex-
portations were vastly on the increase.
Its revenue this year would amount to
$000,000. The Province came into the
unioa with a debt of $1,100,000, and at
that time, under its own tariff, had a
revenue of $500,000 a year, which would

Say off the debt in about two years. The
[inister of Justice spoke of the paucity
of their numbers and' the largeness of
their representation. He wished thoy
had a larger representation ; but they had
as good a right here as the members for
Ontario and Quebec; and he defied the
bon. gentleman to point to six constituen-
cies, excepting the larger cities, which had
more than $600,000 revenue.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Dk ST. JUST
thought the hon. gentleman was mistaken
aa to the revenue. The revenue for 1874
ivaa $450,000.

Hon. Ml . CABEALL said he spoke of
the revenue of the present year. The

wag

that ha
confidently expected it would tonch
$(')00,0<»(), There was a great deal of irrl-
tation in the Province owing to the atti*
tude of the Government and of publio
men. The railway waa promised them,
and rails were purchased in £ni;land ana
sent out with a great flourish of trumpets,
and it was no wonder they should feel
sore at the present condition of affairs.
Americans laughed derisively when they
saw the piles of steel rails along the coast
and the significant fact they suggested,
and every one having the interests of
British Columbia at heart, was greatly
dissatisfied. It was unfortunate that all
this should come of the settlement of the
feud between two Cabinot Ministers*
The confidence of the British Columbiana
was nol only shaken in the (iovernmeat
by their unfriendly, or no policy, but in
the whole Canadian people. He desired
to say that he, for one, had every oonfi-*
dence in .lie Canadian people. It had
been bis lot in the last two or three years
to traverse vast portions of the Dominion ;
he had been m ail the Provinces but two»
and had ]aixed in varioa> grades of so-
ciety, and he found among the ranks of
the gentlemen who supported the Minis-
try, as well as among the Conservitivo
party, the prevailing i lea to be that the
I'ailroad should be constructed He did
not propose to talk secession, for* there
was not in the world could drive his
Province from the Union as long as he
could prevent it, for it was the dream of
his life to see the ( Janfederation of the
Provinces consummated, aud he appealed
to the Uouse to force the Ministry to do
what was rijiht in the premises. lu Lord
Carnarvon's compromise doouraent, he
said in clause 17 : —

" I havo iiow only to repeat the strong deslro
which I feel to be of service In a matter, tha
setlienient of which may be either simple oV
dlfflcult according to the spirit In which It la
approached ; a question directly bearing upoa
the terms of Union may, If botJi parties to it
win waive some portion of their own views
and opinions, be well entrusted to the Imperial
authority which presided over that union, ami
not Improperly, perhaps, to the Individual
minister whose fortune it Avas to consider and,
In some degree to shape the details of tha
original settlement under which the Provinces
of Hritlsh North America were oonfedoi-ated,
ond British Columbia ultlmatoly brought Inta
connection with them. If indeed the expres-
sion of a per.sonal feeling may. In such a case as
this, be Indulged in, I may perhaps be allowed
to say how sincerely I prize the recollection of
th^share which 1 was then permitted to havo
in that great work, how deeply I should grieve
to see any disagreement or dlfleronce Impair
the harmony wlileh has been so conspicuously -.
maintained by the wisdom and good reeling of-
all parties, and bow eutlrely your LordshlDt.

will yon r M In U-tforw mny count upon niy hPHt
eftbrts In tui-llicninco oC ('veiy inoiiKure tbiU
Cttuoonlriliuto to tlui KtiongtU and honour of
the iKn.ilnloii of Canada."

In the samo connection he desired to
gay tbat although he bore »o humble a
part in the conHtruciiou and completion
—and he hoped to bear a conspicuous
part in. the consolidation or the Dominion
of Canada— it was to him one of the
sweetest and dearest memories of his life,
and there was nothing he possodsed he
valued so much as a copy ot the silver
medal strucJc in honour ot (.'onfoderation ;
therefore it would ill become him because
of these diiiiculties to talk of tecession, or
to attempt to destroy one particle of
what he considered as partly his own
handiwork. In looking over the papers
this morning he desired to show what a
change had come over the dream of the
great Liberal party, and how these
changes were premonitory of coming dis-
solution. I^ok at tt great Keform party
of Great Britain, with (Gladstone at their
head. 'J'hey came in with a 230werful fol-
lowing, but in a very shoit time it was
shattered to the winds by one or two false
steps. He would quote from the organ of
the Government, the Toronto Globe, of
February 13tb, 1S74, to show that a
obange had occurred:'—'

" No Ooverninont that could bo found will
carry op the work of conKtruotlon more effi-
ciently and Kpeedlly than will that of Mr.
Hackenzic. It wa.s the Ueforni Party that
irst ad%-ocatcd the annexation of the North-
■west 'J'errltory, inclwUng HritiHh Columbia. It
IS among Heforiners are found the most en-
tUu.slastlc supporters of the raclJlc Hallway.
And It 'shy a Reform ('ovornnient that the
work must he carried to final completion. It
is not the people of British Columbia therefore
that have cause to regret the advent of He-
formers to power."

H« felt that this debate which he had
the honour to open would give rise to
many diacussions, but he hoped it would
not be to any more complications. He
thought, by a little more forbearance in
Parliament by Dominion statesmen, a
better understanding would be arrived
»t, and there would be a more satisfac-
tory solution of the difficulty ; but while
language like that used by the Premier,
who told them that they only wanted
money expended in their Province-
while language of that kind is used in
official documents and Minutes of Coun-
cil) it was not reasonable to expect that
British Columbia would bear meekly n^d
with resignation treatment of that kind,
together with broken faith and taunts.
GChey had been told they had no right to
fepresentation in that House, that they
represented nobody but Indians. They

were leechesi Pariahs, bloodsuckers, tbo
calf that was sucking the Ontario oow,
etc. He did not charge the (iovernmeut
with using such language, but it was used
by their press and by their BU]>porter8.
All these thing wero not pleasing for
them to hear ; it was not the way to
bring order out of the chaos into which
the vicious policy of tho Government had
plunged them. He admitted that the
position of the Oovernmeot was an oner-
ous one. They were new to office and
new to ministerial responsibilities. He
could quite understand that this strain on
their mental powers was enormous, but
he believed that a more large hearted, a
more comprehenrive, whole-souled policy
towards British Columbia would be move
politic. The late Government did car-
tainly desire to show them a g)od feeling,
but the present Government was con-
stantly taunting them with costing (I,-
20(),00() since their admission to the
Dominion more than they returned.
Was that worthy of Ministers holding
office and representing the people ? He
thought not, and if a better understand-
ing was not arrived at, he, for one, pro*
posed to raise his voice, cast his vote, and
try to keep his people content, and if the
Government did not do what was right
they would do their best to put them out
and get men in who would do them jus-
tice. Then, in the language of scripture,
the Province which Mackenzie rejected
would become the first Province of the
Dominion. (Laughter.)

Hon. Mr. CORN WALL— In approaching
this matter the hon. House must excuse
me if I do so from a British Columbia
point of view, and try to express my
sense of the bad treatment which British
Columbia has sustained with reference to
the carrying out of the terms of union. I
complain that she has been badly treat-
ed, not so much by Canada itself, or its
people as a whole, but rather by the ex-
traordinary behaviour of the present
Government since it assumed power
some two or three years since. I do not
wish to conceal from myself the fact that
in 1871, when the termj of union on
which Bi'itisb Columbia was alloweJ to
enter the Dominion wero under discus-
sion in the Houses of Parliament here,
tbat several of the principal members of
the Government now in power ezjiressed
themselves as strongly opposed to such
parts of the terms as relateid to the Cana^
dian PaciBo Railway, and I can well un-
derstand howf on their accession to office,
shortly after, they should have still look-

ed with disfavour on thoie particular
parts, and on the arrnngement wtiich had
been oome to. But, hou. gentlemon, it
appears to me that had thpy risfen to the
exigenov of the moment ; had they been
in any wuy capable of appreciating the
importance of the matter, and of taking
hold of it in a straighforward, honest, and
■tatesmanlike way, tbal then cine of the
disgraceful and much to be deplored
complications which have arisen between
Britidh Columbia and the rest of the
Dominion would now have stood in the
way of tue cordial relations which we
should wish to see in exibteuce between
the whole of the dilFerent Frovinoes of
the Dominion. I may as well'uow revert
for tv few moments to the consideration
of the circumstances by which Britisli
Columbia was brought into Confederation
with the other Provinces. I can safely
say that it was through no spontaneous or
innate wish of her own. The matter was
at first initiated, talked of, and promul-
gated by a few native born and loyal
Canadians who had made British Colum-
bia their home, but with very little effect,
for the space of two or three years, till at
last the matter of the Confederation of
the North Ame"ican CMonies having be-
come one of Imperial policy, a Governor
was sent out from England to British
Columbia, instructed to do ail in his

Sower to bring about what appeared a
esirable end. Uis ExcoUeucy exer-
cised his power and made use of the
means that 'ay within his reach, and Con-
federation was speedily effected on the
terms which we all know. In British
Columbia, however, whi'e the necessary
negotiations and preliminsries were being
carried on there were not a few persons
who, professing to be well acquainted
with Canada and Canadian characteris-
tioB, did not scruple to assert, and to warn
British Columbians that Canada could not
be trusted o carry out her engagements ;
but, hon. gentlemen, at that time British
Columbia was a Crown colony, inhabited

Erincipally by Englishmen, men who,
one&t and straightforward themselves,
and accustooLed to honesty in grave mat
tera of state in their native land, could
not bring themselves to believe that Ca-
nadians, of originally the same birth and
instincts as themselves, the present in-
habitants of a country which was begin
ning to hold up her head among the
nations of the world, to boast of her
4,000,000 of mbabitants, of her natural
wealth and resources, and of greatly in-
oreasing prosperty, oould/under any oin

oumstances, fall so low in their own esU-
mation, and be so utterly regardless of
what was right and just, as to dream frr
one moment of cancelling or breaking tiie
arrsngemeiits which might be made with
British Columbia. The prophetic warn*
ings thus given have, however, to my re-
gre', and 1 believe to the regret of the
majority of this House, turned out only
too true, and British Columbia has not
only been for the present deprived of the
only advantages she couM naturally ex-

Eeot to reap from Confederation, but she
as, through no fault of hor own, fallen
somewhat into disrepute, and is more or
less looked upon as a nuisance and an in-
cumbrance. The reason for all this ia
the mora deplorable, and I will add the
more coniemptible, when one plainly sees
that it is brought about altogether l.y the
working of party motives. 1 he late Gov-
( rnment, a Government which I atn proud
to say was a Governntent fit to be at the
head of affairs of a country prospering as
Canada was under its rule, brought b&fore
Parliament a bill admirably suited to
bring about the end which they sought,
i, e. the building of the Paoitio Railway.
It is now a matter of history Low that
scheme, eminently practical as it was,
and eminently suited to the character of
the work sought to be carried out, was
frustrated through the weight of dingraoe-
ful party opposition which was brought to
bear against it, and how the Government
itself was brought low on matters con-
nected with it. Suffice it to say that to
me the course pursued by tho party now
in power at that time was the most glar-
ing example of the pt 'istitution of nation-
al expediency for the sake of place that
it was ever my lot to know. It was a dis-
grace, hon. gentlemen, not only to them»
selves, but a disgrace to the whole coun-
try, and a disgrace whiuU it will take
many years to live down. The matter
would not, however, have been so disas-
trous in its consequences had the present
Government been equal to the ta^k of
replacing the old one and cai*ryii^ on the
woiks to which the country was pledged.
Had they shown the slightest inclination
to, or aptitude for, or even a duo concep-
tion of the importance of the work that
Iffy before them we should not perhaps
now have so much reason to complain ;
but their conduct from the first has^ been
so weak, ao vacillating and inconsistent
that overy one has lost all belief in their
sincerity and all confidence in their oper-
ations. How can people for instance, re-
concile their expressions of good inten*

tioDH with the fact that lome of the moat
})rominent mi-mbcrs of the QoTeniment
are, and always haTt> been, aworn oppo-
nents of the carrying out of the terms of
Union with BritiBO Columbia ? ITow can
they believe in the sincerity of a Oovem-
ment which would not hold out a band to
aave one of their own Bills, that of the
Esquimau and Nanaimo Railway, which
was lost last year in this House by so nar-
row a majority ? And while I am on this
subject I wish to refer to some remarks
on this matter which fell from the bon .
the Secretary of State, a few days since in
this House when a discussion was going
on about the >'teel rails. The hon. gen-
tleman explained that the E^quimalt and
Nanaimo liailway was brought down last
year by the Oovernment to enable them
to carry out certain arrangements into
which they had entered with the Ciovern-
ment of British ("olumbia, under the
auspices of, and through the intervention
of Lord Carnarvon ; and the hon. gentle-
man proceeded to express his surprise
that under there circumstances the
Senate should have thought it right to
defeat the paosagn of he Bill. So far,
bon. gentlemen, I sgi « with the bon,
8ecre(ary of State, and T may be allowed
to express my surprise that the Senate
thought fit to adopt the course they did ;
but I will go further and express my
most unqualified surprise that any mem-
ber of the Government should rise in bis
place and assert that the Government
did all in their power to secure the pas-
sage of that.Bill. Why, hon. gentlemen,
what were the facts of the case, were they
not patent to all? The hon. member
himself introduced the Bill in a very
short, and I will add, a very lame speech,
find having so done, the unfortunate Bill
was le<^t to take care of itself, to live or
die on its own merits, while no member
of the Government or any supporter of
the Government had another word to say
in its favour ! And what did we see, hon.
gentlemen, when th e vote was taken up-
on the Bill? Why, we saw two promi-
nent Bui^)orter8 of the Government, hon.
gentlemen who are unswerving and un-
wavering supporters of the Government
UQ all occasions — hon. members who
never before or after, either during this
or the past session of Parliament, have
voted in an adverse way on any Bill or
motion in which the Government ex-
pressed an interest, we saw those two
bon. members rise in their places and
vote against the Bill I Now, hon gentle-
men, fyivf can wo reconcile that faot with

the idea that the Government did whftt
they oould in favour of the Bill ? If the
Government had held out its little linger
in support of the lUU, if they had merely
whispered to them the necessity there
was of supporting the Bill, can we for
a moment suppose that it would have
met with the tato which it did? And
again, if the Government were earnest
in their wish to jiass thai Bill through
Parliament, why was it so readily drop-
ped after its being defeated in this IIouso
by so narrow a majority? Why should
not the Government have brought it up
this year, and camo forward and said-
This Bill must pass ; it is <o enable us to
carry out a certain engagement into whioh
we have entered, and we bring it before
you again, and you tihall pass it, or if you
will not, we fall with it. I do not say \t
that if a likely course to be adopted by
the Government of the day, but I say that
such is the course which they should have
pursued had they wished to persuade us
of their integrity and good faith. Then,
again, to proceed a little further, what
siiall we say of a Government which
could give to the liuht such a document
as that precious Minute of Council of
September 20th, 1875. I can only de-
scribe that document as one more worthy
of emanation from the oiHee of some low
attorney than from t he office of the grave
Council of State, for it was a document ao
purposely obscure iind untranslatable, and
10 capable of different constructions being
put upon it, that even one of the principu
supporters of the Government among the
press of the country, the great Gtobe news-
paper of Toronto, gave it one explanation
one morning, and the next was obliged to
eat its own words, and say that it meant
exactly the opposite! Then, to come
nearer the preeeut time, let me mention
the very last Minute of Council which has
seen the light, that of the l^th of this
month. I <io not know whether all hon.
members have seen that Minute, or
whether, at all events, they have read it
with attention, but I can only character-
ize it as a document remarkable for the
wordy special iiieiiling contained in it—
not the grave, conciliatory and kindly
Minute which one would expect to find
addressed by the supreme power of the
State to one of its component parts, to a
Province under its own care, but rather
the work of a lawyer trying to > jake the
most of a bad case, of en advocate fight-
ing a matter to the bitter end with bit.
opponent, and this document at its end,
throning to the winds all argutjaent and

did what
If the
'tie finger
id merely
ity there
a wo for
uld have
id? And
e earoest
through
y droi)-
lis Houso
y should
5b t it up
(1 said-
hle us to
J to which
it before
or if you
tHay ^t
opted by
say that

)uld have

suade ua

•• Then,

iPi', what

>t which

oounaent

uncil of

only de-

« worthy

some low

the grave

Jiiont 10

able, and

•ns being

principd

Qong the

'6e news-

'lanatiou

Jliged to

t tnoant

'O come

Mention

hich hag
of this

all hen.

ute, or
read it

iraoter-

for the

in it-
kindly

to find

•of the

ts, to a

rather

ke the

» fight-

ith hi|^

ts end.

nt and

all obligations, layi in effect : " All that
remains for the Dominion to do is to car-
ry out the tomu of I'nion with liritisb
Columbia in the way that wilt best suit
her, and at the timu which will bt^nt suit
her." That, bon. gentlemen, is the last
straw in the weight which will break the
camel's back. Such expressions must
raise the ire of British Columbians from
ono end of the Provinco to the other, and
may lead to consequences which are (ii''
iicult to fot'esee, and which no ^ne would
regret more than myself. I now wibh to
say a few words in behalf of British
Columbia. I think every one must see
that British Columbia has been 'b« ' 1
treated. I know that she thinks zo ..■■
self, but what has annoyed her moie than
anytbing else is tha^ Canada and her
rulers during the past three year.i hav
been unremittingly engaged in the Ovju-
pation of throwing difficulties and dt inyit
in the way of carrying out the terms of
Union, whenever and by vhomsoever
the matter is discussed, it has s'vvays
been wi h the view of linding reasons
why the work bhould not go on. ^ilways,
instead of avowing an intention of doing
the best under tue civcumttancos, the
Oanadidn Govenmefrt, press and people,
with but few exceptions, have been
searching for reasons how not to do that
to which tbjy are solemnly bound ; and
it is that a!id that alone which has exas-
I)crated the people of the Western Pro-
vince. If Canada had always shown the
inclination to do the best she could, to
go heart and soul into the work before
her, nnd to persevere to the end, there
would never have been any discontent on
the part of British Columbia; but, on the
contrary, she would have been ready to
meet the Dominion half way, and resign
for the present her own good for the
general .advantage of the country. la it a
wonder, hon. gentlemen, that, under such
circumstances as I have described, British
Columbia should feel a(«**e and disgusted ?
Is it a wonder that the feelings should
find expreosion, and thai there are even
not a few who dare whisper tts word
" seoeasion ? " But, I for one, never tuink
that the matter will come to auoh a pass
as that last word suggests. I believe that
ere long Canada will awake to the exi-
gency of the moment, that the people
will rise in their strength, and, at no dis
tant time, will, with one supreme effort,
throw from them the incubus which now
weigtis down and oppresses them in the
shape of the present Minlstiy, and that
they will then take the matter into their
hands, and ttee that the terms of Unioo
with Biitish Columbia are oariied oat.

Can one fail to think but that every
Canadian is proud of the grand country
which he calls his own, of a country
stretchlnK from the Atlantic on one side
to the Paoidc on the other, across the
wide expanse of this msgniticent conti-
nent ? And can one believe ary Canadian
so mean aud contemptible as not to strain
every endeavour to preserve the inviola-
bility of that ia.tr domain, and of the
iuhttritance which he hopes to bequeath

'is children ?

I n. Mr. HEAD said he took a some-
wtib different view of this question. He
.bought the Government wore keeping
fait' to the h' „ of their ability with Bri-
tish Colunitnii, and were endeavouring to
ful I every promise m<ide at the time of
Cc '^deration. Mr. Fleming's last report
w"! to tho effect that every ell'ort was
'ijing made to "discover a i>raotical route
tor the railway in order that the terms of
the L'nion with British Columbis. might
bo carried out." lie contended that the
Tery first thing to be ':;i.»» was to have an
exhiuslive curvey of tho country, became
if they mude a false stnp in tho locution uf
tho road it must cost millions of dollars;
so if there was a little delay I'rom thia
caqse t'lere was nr ruasou for British
Columbia to believe that faith was not to
b« kept with her. We did not agree with
the resolution of the hon aentloman.

Hon. Mr. M;.\GPHEUSUN said it would
scarcely be expected considering his con-
nection with this railway a few years ago,
that he should not have a few words to
say on the resolution now before the
House. If tho hon. gentleman behind
him was cotreot in his argument, the
Government might have told the British
Columbians that the survey was not ttm-
pleted ; that until it was completed the
railway could not be proceeded with.
That might have been a good answer; it
would have been a good plea for reason-
able delay : but instead of that the Gov-
ernment said nothing about the survey,
but proposed to expend a large amount
of money in building a railway which
would be of little use, and which would
not have formed a part of the Canada
Pacific Bail way. Ue thought that it was
quite evident that the (Jovernment was
not wanting for surveys, but that they
desired to wait for a very long time bnfore
proceeding with the main work. When
the arrangement proposed by tht) late
Governmpnt of constructing the railway
throqgh the agency of a company .feU.
through, he -became favourable to the
work being undertaken by the Govern-
ment through the. Public Works Depart-
ment, ot under Commissioners. The

]':

ohief reason why he oonsiderttd it in
the best interests of the Dominion to con-
tstruot it as a public worK, was the appre-
hension he entertained that if a large
area of a country fell into the bands of a
compr..ny there would be danger of the
control falling into the hands of unfriendly
rivals, and the settlement of the country
might be either postponed in favour of the
neighbouring Republic, or might be car-
ried on injuriously to this Dominion.
Entertaining that view, he submitted a
number of resolutions to this House about
two years ago, in April, 1873, and he
thought that in these resolutions was
suggested a scheme which might have
been adopted with advantage by the CJov-
ernment. He thought that it would be
admitted to day that if the Government
had acted upon it when they succeeded
to office ; if they bad adopted the plan
•uggested here, it would have, been satis
factory to the whole Dominion, and en-
tirely satisfactory to British Columbia. It
might have been accomplished without a
large expenditure ; without anything like
the expenditure that they afterwards pro
posed to make on works of little or no
utility. On that occasion he bad moved
to resolve that with a view to the early
commencement of the Canadian Pacific
Railway, and in order to keep faith with
British Columbia, and to carry out the
iionditions agreed upon at the union of
that Province with Canada, and to ensure
the certain and early uniting toi^etber by
railway of all the Provinces oi the Domin-
ion, the Crovernmcnt should forthtvith
determine the terminal points of the line
on the Pacific coast, and east of the
Booky Mountains, and should at once
commence and proceed with the con-
struction of the railwav through the
Department of Public Works, or by a
board of competent commissioners ap-
pointed for that purpose. That simulta-
neously with commencing the construo-
ti.OT> of the railway, steps should be taken
by the Government to obtain a thorough,
accurate exploration and complete sur-
vey of the whole line between the ter-
minal points on the Pacific coast and
the south siJe of Lake Nipissing, to
ascertain the features and physical for-
mation oi the country, to determine the
alignment and grades of the railway, and
to procure a close estimate of the oo't
for the intormation of i'arliament and of
the country. A largo amount had been
expended, and a larger amount was of-
fered to be expended in what would
have been productive of little or no good
result. He was one of those who voted
•gainst the measure of last session for the

construction of the Esquimalt and Nan-
aimo Railway. His reason for doing so
was, he believed, in the first place, that the
expenditure would have been utterly un-
productive ; that the proposed railway
would not be a work of any utility ; that
the offer was really to bribe British Col«
umbia into consenting to an indefinitd
postponement of the Pacific Railwsy. He
believed also that the arrangement would
not have effected a settlement of the
question, because while British Colum-
bians wer.) willing to accept it for a time,
they would not have been satisfied for
long, and would have demande i the con-
struction of the Pacific Railway in fulfil-
ment of the conditions of Union. His hon.
friend (Mr. Carrall) was candid enough to
tell them so on the fioor of this House. Tb
was simply the expenditure of money
that was offered to conciliate the British
Columbians, without being of any national
service. And that policy was continued ;
for after the bill authorizing the Esqui-
mau and Nanaimo Railway was lost in this
House, and some other means bad to b»
devised to satisfy for & time the people of
British Columbia— a small sum compara-
tively, but a large sum considering it was
really a sop — three quarters of a million
was offered to them for an indefinite post-
ponement of the Pacific Railway. Now,
he would have opposed the grant of
$750,000 this year, if it had been brought
up, as an improvident grant. He believed
the people of this Dominion, from one end
to the other, desired the construction of
our great national railway — not in an ex-
travagant manner ; not before the means
of the country would permit oi its bemg
constructed without inconvenience to the
exchequer; not faster than the settlement
of the country required; but as fast as
the int»resti« of the Dominiou demanded.
He believed a great ni^ority of the people
desired to see the Pacific Uiiilway carried
out. He would only say a lew words with
respect to the negotiations carried on
with British Columbia. He did not think
uhev had been conducted in a spirit
worthy of this Dominion. The bargainmg
with British Columbia had not been car«
ried on in a spirit worthy of Canada. Hv
confessed he read the last Order in Coun-
cil with a great deal cf regret and with
some pain; for it was not conceived in
that tone of national dignity and loftiness
which should characterize the State papers
of this country. If the (rovernment,
instead of occupying a great deal of
time in paltry negotiations, had com-
menced the Railway and madaa moderate
expenditu'-e as evidence of their good
faith and heir desh« to carry out what

bad been ^greed to, tbey would have
satisfied British Columbia. Her repre-
Bentatives la Parliament here all ex-
pressed that as the opinion of their Pro-
vince. He saw nothing from any of her
authorities that would lead him to a
different conclusion. He hoped that even
now the Government would change their
policy ; would act in a different spirit,
and do wha,t was reasonable with British
Columbia, and for the advantage of the
Dominion, instead of continuing to keep
British Columbia dissatisfied with her
connection with the rest of Canada, and
probably engendering feelings of unfriend-
liness and estrangement which would be
difficult to remove.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIEK Da ST. JUST
suggested that the debate should be
adjourned.

Hon. Mr. MACDONALD moved the
adjournment of the debate until to-
morrow, which was carried.

March 23, 1876.
Hon. Mr. MoDONALD resumed the
debate on Hon. Mr. Carrall's motion to
resolve: — That the construction of the
Paoifio Railway having formed the prin-
cipal condition upon which British Colum-
bia entered the Canadian Confederatioi),
every reasonable effort should brve been
made by the Government of the Dominion
to satisfy the people of that Province
that faith would be kept with them ; but
this House re|L:iets to find, that whilst in-
curring, or ready to incur immediately,
ezpendilures of several millions of dollars
not needed or of doubtful utility, the
ilovemment has failed to proceed vigor-
Musly with the construction of our great
national Interoceani'^ Railway, which is so
essential to the material advancement of
all the Provinces of the Dominion as well
tu to the early consoliduticn of political
and social union &mong the whole people
— He said : The position of affairs between
the Dominion Government and British
Columbia has arrived at a point when an
expression of opinion of this House may
AOt be out of place, whether as & guidance
in the future to the Dominion Govern-
ment or to our Province. In my opinion,
the chief object iUvbringing forward this
subject now is, that public opinion should
be indicated, so far aa an expression of
this House can be taken as such indica-
tion, of a desire to have this great national
highway perfected. And whether this
Hoiue follows or Ifeads publio opinion,
the result of this debate will be looked
upon with interest in our Provinoe.
The idea of establisbipg communication

from ocean to ocean is not new, but to
British Columbia remains the honour, if it
be an^bonour,of being|the|immediate cause
of pressing upon the attention of the
country the necessity for this transconti-
nental railway ; hence her deep interest
in this subject ; and whether the verdict
be for or against maintaining the connec-
tion with our Province, the debate will be
of equal importance. The hon. gentle-
man who moved the resolution now before
the House reviewed clearly the terms
upon which British Columbia came into
the Canadian Confederation, and I do not
intend going over the same ground again,
but may briefly refer to some of the points.
I will endeavour to state the case from
my stand-point as clearly as I can. The
first breach in the terms of union was
made in July, 18/3, by the failure to com-
mence constru'^tion at that time, and to
this the Provincial Government, as in duty
bound, called the attention of the Domin-
ion Government ; and from that time until
now they have contiuued to protest against
the non-fulfilmeut of the terms of union.
Whether this breach can be justified or
not, the fact cannot be controverted. Iho
Premier of the Dominion, in a speech at
Lambton in January, 1874, alluded to the
great difficulties of building the Pacific
Railway, and said that a relaxation of the
terms with Columbia must be had. This
speech became known in the Province at
a time when a combination of circum-
stances gave rise to some alarm and appre-
hension : The Provincial Government at
that time wanted money, aw' were nego-
tiating for a loan with the Dominion ; and
the fear that the true interests of the
Pi-ovince might be sacrificed, and the
terms of union defltruyed, caused the &vab
political disturbance whijb ever took
place in the Provinoe. To us the terms of
union are everything — cir capital, stock
in trade, and constitution — and if once
broken through we have nothing on
which to rely. Shortly' after this commo-
tion Mr. Edgar was sent to tiie Province,
as agent of the Dominion Government, to
ascertain ttie feelings ond opiuioiis of the
people on public questions, particularly
ou the Paoiho Railway, After some time
Mr. Edgar made a proposal to the Local
Government to the following » fleet : — " To
commence construction from Esquimalt
to Nanaimo immediately, an' I to push
that portion of the railway on to comple-
tion with the utmost vigor aud in the siiort-
est practicable time. Hon. gentlemen
will observe that this was not offered as
compensation, or as a branch line, but aa
a portion of the railway ; and as a portioa
must be a part of the whole, this must

have been considered as a part of the
main line.

"The Government would immediately
open up a road and build a telegraph line
along the whole length of the railway in
tile Provineo, and carry, telegraph wire
across the continent. To a country like
British Colunibia it is conceded, however,
to Le an important j^oint, that not only
the proinpt and vigorous commencement,
but rIho the continuous proBecution of
the worK o' construction within the limits
of the Pi evince should be guaranteed.
In order, therefore, to secure an absolute
certainly in this direction, the Dominion
Governniient Hie disposed to concede to
British Columbia, that the moment the
surveys and road on the main land can
be completed, there shall be in each and
every year, and even under the most
unfaeourable circums(ances, during the
construction of the railway, a minimum
expenditure upon works of construction
within the Province of at lea<t one million
live hundred thousand dollars." I wish
hri. gentlemen to observe that this offer
was made without reference to the " pre-
dicates" of 1871, 1872, and 1874. ihat
taxation shauld not be increased for the
building of the Pacific Kailway. These
negotiatioi s of Mr. Edgar proved a failure,
and 1 have always maintained that the
Local Government acted injudiciously in
not treating with the Dominion agsnt m
a fair spirit, and telling him at least what
they wanted. The Provincial Government
then petitioned Her Majesty, setting forth
their grievances, and praying that the
Dominion (uovernmeat might be urged to
carry out the terms of union. 1 he Secretary
of State for the Colonies, on receiving the
petition, and the answer of the Dominion
tiovernmeut thereto, expressed his plea-
sure at the conciliatory manner in which
both parties had approached thesulject,
but 1 am afraid that the recent Minutes
of Council of both Governments will not
produce the game good impression. The
Secretary of State then proposed a cer-
tain arrangement in settlement of the
(questions in dispute, which be considered
would not prcAs heavily on the Dominioiu,
and would be fair to Columbia His
Lordship's recommendations are the
same as the Edgar proposais, excepting
as to yearly expenditure, which was to be
two millions instead of one and a half
millions. His Loidship remarks that even
Columbia will receive considerably less
than was promised to her as the condition
oi entering theDcminion. The Dominion
Govertpient after some fuither oorr«>B-
pondence accepted the settlement of the
iSecretury of State by Minute of Council

dated 1 8th December, 1874, and as an
evidence of such acceptance, brought a
bill into Parliament last session to give
efifi'ct to a })art of the settlement ; the
fate of that bill we all know— and we know
that British Columbia was at that time
sacrificed to party spirit. Every hon.
gentleman in this r'hambei' no doubt
thinks (and would feel indignant at being
told otherwise) that the legislation of this
country is founded on principles of jus-
tice which acknowledge the righ^ to pro-
tect the interests of the minority as well
as of the majority, but in thii instance I
am sorry to any that an act of injustice
was done. The failure of that bill, how-
ever, did not cancel the claims of the
Province. If there is any virtue in pro-
mises and obligation) solemnly entered
into, wtiether under Act of Parliament or
Minute of Council, they should be ad-
hered to, and not set to one side to the
injury of any Province. The Premier, in
a speech at Sarnia in October, 1875,
announces that serious " modifications of
the terms with British Columbia will be
necessary, and that fresh proposals were
to be made, and that British Colum-
bia deserved every consideration." With
the Earl of Carnarvon's bargain unfulfilled,
ttiis announcement gave rise to much un-
easiness in the Province as forshadowing
future delay and fresh negotiation the
Gaiiarvon recommandations had only
be<>n agreed to a short time before, and
now they are virtually set aside before any
part of them is fulfilled. These fresh pro-
pnsi'S wore embodied in a Minute of
Coaticil dated 20th September 1875, and
reached British Columbia the following
November. The Local Government impru-
dently attributed motives for this delay,
which I do not endorse ; I am willing to
believe that the delay was occasioned
through the neglect of the official ivbose
duty it was to attend to thh matter. The
Minute recites the Edgar proposals and
the agreement with Earl Carnarvon, and
ofl'ers a compensation of $750,000 under
buch ambiguity, that if otherwise willing
to acce[)t the offer, the L3cal Govern-
m<>nt could not do so, as it could easily
^le construed into compenf;ation for inde-
finite delay upon the whole line, although
we are assured by the hon. gentleman at
the head of the Government that the
oiler ha i reference only to the Esqoi-
inalt and Nanaimo Railway. Had this
Minute containe(i an assurance that the
other portions of the Carnarvon recom-
mendations would be carried out, the
dissatisfaction would not have been so
great, but there was no suoh assurance.
This offer of compensation was declined

and as an

', brought a
ision to give
dement; the
ind we know
It that time
Every hen.
no doubt
ant at leing
fation of this

MpleS of JU8-

[righ^ to pro-

irity aa well

instance I

of injustice

■t bill, hoff-

|ainjs of the

tue in prp-

Jnly entered
nrliament or
3uld be ad-
side to the
Premier, in
tober, 1875,
lifications of
nbia will be
aposaU were
ish Colum-

ion." With

1 unfulfilled,

to much un-

brahadowing

'tiation the

I had only

before, and

le before any

Be fresh pro-
Minute of

er 1875, and

le following

nent impru-
this delay,

aa willing to
occasioaed

[iuial ivhose

latter. The

oposals and

mrvon, and

.000 under

vise willing

nl Goyern-

iould easily

)n for inde-

3i although

ntlemaa at

t that the

the Esqui-
Had thio

:e that the

9n recom-
out, the

) been so

assuraotie.

s deolined

by the Provincial Government. And we
do think that the Dominion <^rovernmeat
having carried the point of an extension
of the time limit, and after having
entered into obligations with the full
knowledge of their being less onerous
than the original terms, we had every
reason to believe that they would be
adhered t({. and cannot understand
any attempi, being mads to ignore
those obligations. The Provincial Gov-
ernment appealed to Her Miyesty a
second time— moat unwisely as I think —
being, as I am, deeply impressed with the
wisdom and advisibility of settling our
domestic quarrels at home. And I am
glad to be able to say that all the Co-
lumbia representatives now at Ottawa
disapprove of the action of the Local
Qovernment in this instance. The tone
of the Columbia Minute of Council re-
fusing the olfer of $750,000 U much to be
deplored, although it must be br>rne in
mind that it was written under a deep
sense of injustice. Even then it in hardly
juatiQable, and the tone of the Minute
of the Dominion Government on the 15th
of this month is equally to be deplored ■
It attempts to reduce this great question
to a naerely local one. The hon. Minister
of Agriculture alluded to the tone of the

SresB in British Columbia. 1 as well as
imself condemn the spirit and tone of a
portion of that press, but lately they have
been writing under the belief that the
Province has been deeply wronged, and
ou that score there is Bora3 excuse. I
take it that the hon. gentleman would
not like at all times to be held account-
able for all that appears in the press of
Canada. From speeches made by promi
nent men, and from newspaper articles in
this part of the country, an impression
has been gaining grouad that there is a
feeling ii. certain circles that British
Columbia should be cast adrift. If this
feeling has any foundation the sooner we
know it the better, and we can part good
friends, and this debate will be of some
service in ooilk^rming or dispelling these
impressions. Allegiance a:.,! loy alty ore
based entirely on mutual advantages.
The Federal Government and the diiierent
branches must each do their part to en.
sure the harmonious working of the
whole. The hon. Minister of Agriculture
also alluded to a -esolution passed by the
House of CottimonB iu'isri^. when the
delegate from British Cc' ;rabia was pres-
ent on the floor of th«) douse. There is
nothing to show that he approved or dis-
approved of that resolution. What power

could^he^bavo by being on the floor of
the House when he could not open his
mouth, and the resolution after ail was
only a sugar coatiog to the pill, so that it
might go down easily. We say this :
that we have just ground of complaint ;
that these grounds of complaint have
been acknowledged from the fact of com-
pensation haviug been offered us j that
there is no desire to burden or overtax
the country ; that we have agreed to
extend the time limit from ten to nine-
teen years ; that we have agreed to take
a yearly expenditure much less than we
were entitled to ; that in 1874 the tax-
ation of the country was incaeased by
three million dollars in order (as stated
in the preamble to the I'acific Kailway
Act of 1874) to mike provision for the
construction of the Pacific Baiiway as
rapidly as possible ; that three millions
will pay interest and sinking fund on
fifty miLlions,whicb is more than ne jessary
witn land grants to build the whole luie ;
that in 1874 and 1875 £8,000,000 have
been borrowed partly ou the Imperial
guarantee for the purpose of constructing
the facifio Baiiway, also for enlarging the
canals. The Act authorizing the loan
recites the bargain with firitisu Columbia
as being the chief reason for borrowing
tbii money; railway construction is
made the prominent feature in the pre-
emble, the enlai-gement of the canals
beiog secondary. That the money raised
under the Imperial guarantee cannot
legally be applied to any purposes other
than the Pacific Eiiilwayj that tive years
have nearly elapsed smce British Co-
lumbia entered Confederation, and it is
only reasonable to expect that the work
of construction be commenced forthwith.
We have no reports from the Chief
Engineer for the laib two years, but we
find ia the report brought down in the
session of 1874, which could only em-
brace information up to the end of 1873,
the Chief Engineer makes the following
statement: — "It may indeed be now
accepted as a certainty that a route
has been found generally possessing
favourable engineering features, with the
exception of a short section approaching
the Pacific ooast ; which route, taking its
entire length, including the exceptional
section alluded to, will, on tho average,
show lighter work, and will r<)quire less
costly structures that have been neces-
sary on many of the railways now in
operation in the D&joinion." Now, if
this much was known two years ago, th&
informfttion must sturely be complete

! •

enough by this time to enable the Gov-
ernment to determine the route withovit
delay. That large sums of money are
lying idle in diit'eront banks, and a large
(juantity of rails on hand, and that a gresit
deal of wcrk could be carried on for two
•r throe years \^'ithaut much additional
outly. That the Minute of Council of
the 20th .September last has destroyed
confidence and caused much dissatisfac-
tion in the Province as ignoring the set-
tlement of Earl Carnarvon — T think I
may use that term — there being no assu
ranee of its fulfilment ; that the Minute
■ of the 1 5th March last tends in the seme
direction. I ^vill briefly allude to some
portions of it. I find the following:—
•' There is no pretence for saying that the
Eequimalf' and Nanaimo Railway was,
under the ttrnis of Union, a work, the
construction of which was obligatory on
Canada, as part of the Pacific Railway."
I say that we had very atrong grounds for
considering this to be a part of tht) main
line. By a Minute of Council of June, 1873,
Esquimalt is declared to be the western
termiauB of the Pacific Railway. That
Mr. Edgar proposed to build this portion
of the railway without reference to its
being a branch, or as compensation —
and that grants of land were renerved
for the purposes of this road in ac-
cordance with the " terms of union."
'i"he Minute further states : -"The Com-
mittee would observe that they cannot
asEent to the view that the Union with
British Columbia has occasioned loss and
deprivation to that Provmce. On the
contrary, the results, financially, to the
Dominion and to British Columbia re-
spectively, even ignoring all railway ex-
penditure in the Province, ^how that
enormous pecuniary advantage's have
been derived by Columbia from Canada."
We do not pretend to eay that we have
suffered any loss from being joined to
Canada, but we do say that continual
delays and uncertainties have had a most
damaging effect on the Province. We
are certain of nothing, and never know
what may next be otiered to us. The
Minute further states : " The Committee
must further observe that the tenor of the
representations now under consideration
would seem to indicate that the object of
the Tjegislature of British ('olumbia is
less to secure the completion of the work
as a national undertaking in such a way
and on such terms as may best conduce
to the welfare of the whole community,
than to enforce the immediate and con-
tinued expenditure, within theUr own
Province, at whatever cost to Canada, of

many millions of money, for which they
cannot pretend to have given an equiva-
lent ; and that their chief grievance is
that their people have not as yet derived,
in addition to the other financial benefits
of Union, the gains and profits to be ex-
pected from the expenditure of these
millior.s in their midst. To these views
must be mainly referred the allegations,
unfounded as they appear to the Cca-
M.i^tee, of disastrous and ruinous delays,
and as to all classes of the population
having suffered loss and dei)rivationfl."
This great work is of as much importance
to the whole country as to us, and ' the

Sortion of this railway east of the Rocky
lountains is guai cteed to us as fully as
that with; ^ our own Province, ejid is of
equal impoitance to us. British Columbia
has the right to protest against delays
over the whole line just as much as in the
Province— although our immediate atten-
tion has been directed to that within the
Province, believing that the interests of
the easteru sections would be looked after
by the people in this part of Canada.
These t^vc Unes, " It remains only to en-
deavour to construct the. Pacific Railway
as the resources of the country will per-
mit," wind up this Minute, and dts2iose in
a summary way of the terms of union and
the Carnfirvon recommendation, and per
haps it is as well that no fresh promises
should bo made, and whatever we now get
will be unexpected. I don't think it fair
to place the statement of the amount ap-
pended to the Minute before the country
at this time — the expenditure in a new
Province being usually larger the first-
years than afterwards. Everythi I
notice, has been brought against uts tuat
possibly could— a share of the public debt
of the country, and a share of the cost of
civil government, and a share of every-
thing else. The outlay on account of the
Pacific Railway cunnot fairly be charged
to our Province. It is a national under-
taking, and a large part of this money
paid in salaries is carried back to this
part of Canada, from which the Province
gets no benefit. We never pretend to
bruig financial advantages to the Domin-
ion, but if treated well I feel assured that
we will return as much, if not more, than
any of the Provinces, in proportion to
population. What we want now is an
evidence, a substantial evidence, of bona
fide intentions and not promises. We
want to feel as soon as possible that we
are part of Canada ; instead of importing
foreign goods, we desire to be able to
get the benefits of your manufaotures
and markets here ; we desire to feel

wliich they
1 an equiva-
;rierance is
fet derived,
lal beneRts
ts to be ex-
e of these
these views
allegations,
J the Cora-
I oils delays,
population
jrivations."
importance
IS, and ' the
the Rociiy
as fully as
B| »Jid is of
h Columbia
inst delays
3h as in the
liatc atten-
witbin the
nterests of
wked after
of Canada,
only to en-
fic Kail way

y will per-
disjiose In
uuioQ and

1, and ^er

n promises

we now get

hink it fair

niount ap-

be country
in a new

' the first-

rythi I

st un tuttt

ublic debt

he cost of
of every-

lint of the

8 charged

al under.

18 money

k to this
Province

retond to

B Domin-

ured that

>ore, than

ortion to

3W is an

, of bona

3es. We
that we

mporting
able to

ifactures
to feel

that we are a part of a great and progres-
sive country, imbued above all with a
deej) sense of integrity in fulSlment of
obligations.

Hon. Mr. ALLAN said whether the
resolution now before the House passed
precisely in its present shape or not, he
was quite sure the great majority of the
members, without distinction of parties,
would give their firm adhesion to the main
proposition which it contained ; that pro-
position was, that the construction of the
Pacific Kailway was an absolute necessity
if these British North American Provinces
were to become a strong, united, and
powerful confederation. If this great
work was not proceeded with, then he
was sure that the bright future which
they all anticipated, and not unreason-
ably anticipated, for the Dominion would
be shorn of half its promise ; for without
this Pacific Kailway they could not hope
to build up Manitoba or the North-west
Territories, and without it our union with
British Columbia would be little more
than a union in name; if, indeed, our
connection with this— one of the fairest
Provinces in tbe Dominion — would not be
imperilled altogether. He maintained
that all Canadians, irrespective of party,
were deeply interested in this question
of a transcontinental railway. In the
first place, our honor was bound up in it f
the <aith of the country was pledged to
lis construction and completion ; and if
we had one singlo spark of national pride
and patriotic desire that the Dominion
should be on thiu continent in reality
what our French fellow (jubjectB in their
own larjuage designated it — J-a Puis
sance du Canada ^ikey should take care
that no strife or party politics, no vacil-
lating policy on the part of the Adminis-
tration of the day, should ever imperil
that position or endanger the Confedera-
tion by anything that might cause the
loss of the Pacific Province, the possession
of which was so necessary to the prestige,
the political power, and the material pro-
gress and advancement of the whole
Dominion. The resolution pointed spe-
cially to two points : first, the delay' in
the construction of the railway; and,
secondly, the expenditurec unnecoesarily
made. Ue would take the latter first, as
it would give him an opportunity of saying
a few words as to the motives which led
himself and other members of this House
to vote against the Oeorgian Bay Branch
and the Eaquimalt and Nanaimo railways.
He wished it to be understood particularly
«i coming from Western Ontario that he
was not opposed in the slightest degree

(o any reasonable amount of public money
jaeing expended in the Ottawa Vailey, or
in any other part of Canada. On the con-
trary, it was bis desire, as a Canadian, t '-.
see every part of the Dominion opened
out an I developed, as far as the means of
the country would reasonably permit.
But he was very jealous of anything which
looked liUe frittering away any portion cf
the money which is so urgently required
lor a great national undertaking on any
road or portion of a road not absolutely
essential to or actually forming a pai-t of
the great national work in which the
whole Dominion was concerned; therefore
ho had opposed the Geoigian Bay Branch,
and for the same reason he had voted
against the bill for the construction of the
Esquimslt and Nanaimo liaiiway — not
from any party motives whatever, but
becuuso he conscientiously believed then,
as he believed now, that it did not actually
form a part of the great transcontiuental
railway . Whild on this point he would
say that, however local interests might
infiuence some few pei-sons in BHtish
Columbia, he could not bring himself to
believe that what that Province
coveted was simply the expenditure of
money within their territoiy, or that we
should ever preserve that Province to the
Dominion by any expenditure for merely
local objects, or by anything short of
making that union, which was now little
more than a union in name — a union, in
fact, by the construction of the Pacific
Railway. Therefore he had voted against
the construction of the Eaquimalt Rail-
way, because he thought it would only
serve as an additional excuse for further
delay in the construction of the main
line. On the same ground, and for the
same ransone, he viewed with some alarm
expendiiurec now being made on sections
or portions of roicl professedly forming,
or rather hereafter to i'^rm, a part of the
great Pacific Kailw'ay. They all knew the
famous "water stretches" policy which
the Government first enunciated wht>:i
they came into office, and hid to declare
then: intentions with respect to the Pacific
Railway ; and he ventured to affirm that
that policy was looked upon by the great
majority of the people as only an excuse
for an indefinite po3ti>onement of the
through rail route. This feeling of dis-
trust as to thd intentions of the Qovei'd-
ment in reference to the construction of
the main road had been much increased
by what had fallen from the members of
too Administration themselves on several
occasions recently, in answer to enquiries
made from this side of 4be House; and »

very grave suspicion had been raised in
his miud, as well aa in the minds of othei h,
as to whether the Govern tiient are really
expending the money they are now ex-
pending on that whioh is ultimately to
constitute the main line of the trani-
continentftl railway, or whether they are
putting it on roads or portions of roads
whioh will be perfectly useless so far as
the constructioL of the main line is oon-
oeraed. Perha2)9 before the closo of the
session, in answer to the various enquiries
whioh have been made from time to time,
Buoh information may be laid on the
table of the House a^ would enable bon.
gentlemen to form an opinion on the
subject ; for the statements which bad
hitherto been made by the B:«imber8 of
the Government ba<'. been of so unsatis-
factory a character, so uncertain, so want-
ing in clearness and precision, that it was
almost impossible to gather from them
what lines of road were being surveyed
or constructed, or any definite or valuable
information whatever about them. Pass
ing onward to that part of the resolution
that declared that the construction of
our great National Interoceanic Railway is
essential to the material advancemaut of
all the Provinces of the Dominion, as well
as to the early consolidation of political
and social union among the whole people,
he was sure this spoke the sentiments
of n largo majority of the people of
Canada. It was quite true that under the
ressure of various matters more imme-
lately afliecting our interests, in this part
of the Pominion, the press and peopl'i had
not lately spoken out so strongly o? so
earnestly on the subject of this Pacific
road, but he ventured to assert that the
heart of the people of this country was
quite sound on that matter, and while
they bad no desire that the Goverameat
should use undue haste or push on the
work without proper preliminary surveys,
or faster than the resources of the coun-
try would fairly permit, thej^ would not
suffer anything that looked like an at'
tempt to kill it off, either by diverting the
money to unnecessary works or by con •
tinued delays or masterly inaction. He
rejoiced, therefore, that the whole sub-
ject bad been brought before the House
by the esolution of the hon . gentleman
from British Columbia, as it would give to
the members of the Senate an opportuni-
ty of calling the attention of the country
to the dangers which threatened a great
national work, if the present polioy of
the Government be persisted in— a policy,
too, whioh the Government seemed to
take delight in enunciatiag— -judging from

the Minutes of Council which have been
alluded to — in such a way as would be most
galling and offensive not to gtrangers and
aliens, but to those who were our own
fellow subjects, bound to ua by the
.strongest ties of race, creed and u com-
mon allegiance' He had no desire to
approach this question in a party spirit
or from any partisan motives, and he
hoped he had not done so on the present
occasion. His earnest wish, as a Cana-
dian, was to i^ee a work, which, in the
languuge of the resolution, was absolutely
necessary for the consolidation of the
political and social union among the
whole people, proceeded with cautiously,
considerately, but with one steady, per-
sistent i^Am throughou , that of connect-
ing the Pacific i^lope with Centra,! Ca-
nada and the Maritime Provinces on
the dhures of tue Atlauiic by a great
itateroceanic highway, thus completing
and consolidating this Dominion as a
power on this North American Continent.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT suggested that the
debate should be adjourned, as a large
bundle of important papers on this siu>-
ject were in the printer's hands and would
be before the House early next week.

Hon. Mr. DICKEY moved the adjourn-
ment of the debate.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL said be did not
see |that there would be much more in-
formation la the papers than they already
had ; and there was enough in the Minute
of Council to found a dozen resolutions on.

The debate was adjourned until Thurs-
day, Mr. Dickey having the floor.

Thursday, March 30,
The debate on Hon. Mr. Carrall'a mo-
tion, respecting the Pacific Railway, wjs
resumed by

Hon. Mr. DICKEY, who said he re-
gretted that hid own feeling at the pres-
ent, and the manner in whicli his time
had been so fully occupied, alike contrib-
uted to prevent him doing justice to the
great and important question involved in
the resolution. At the same time he
would endeavour as briefly as possible to
advert to a few prominent points con-
nected with it without attempting to
make an exhaustive exposition of the
subject. An amendment had been sug-
gested to the resolution, and it became
necessary, therefore, that the House
should intelligently examine the question
and decide what course should be adopted
under the circumstances. It they Vi^ent
back for a moment to the commencement
of this legislation for the Canadian

)h have been
Aould be most
stiangere and
ere our own
US by the
and a com-
no desire to
party spirit
ves, ana he
I the present
as a Cana-
ivbioh, in the
as absolutely
ttion of the
among the
b cautiously,
steady, per-
of connect-
Centra,! Ca-
rovinoes on
by a great
comi^leting
linion as a
n Continent,
ed that the
li as a large
on this sub-
is and would
ct week,
the adjourn-

he did not
iich more in-

they already
1 the Minute
lolutions on.
until Thurs-
3or.

March 30.

Jarrall's mo-
aiiway, vns

' said he re-
t the pres-
ich his time
ike contrib-
3tice to the
involFed in
le time he
possible to
points con-
empting to
>ion of the
1 been sug-
1 it became
;he House
be question
beadop^
1 tbey v^ent
nencement
» Canadian

Pacific Eailway it would be found that an
Act was passed in 1872 to provide for its
construction. The policy of the late
Qovernment, which we need not reiterate,
was that the road should be built by a
company, with aids of money and land,
and when he came to advert to the next
legislative step it would be seen that the
policv then announced had been recog-
nized by the present Administration, al-
though in a most singular and inconsist^
•nt manner they had immed ately de-
parted from it. The original Bill for the
construction of the Pacific Ilailway would
never have passed in this House, and it
certainly would not have received his
vote, as be stated distinctly at the time,
but for a resolufion which was placed
upon the journals of the House or Com-
mons, and recited as part of the preamble
of the Canadian Pacific Act iu 1874, for
he was one of those not prepared to
plunge the country into an unknown and
untold expenditure for the purjpose of
iusoomplishing the object of that Biil. He
remained of the same opinion still, but be
and the legislature of the country were
prepared to have the railway constructed
by private enterprise with the aids that
that Act accorded, and he shared most
sincerely in the regret expressed that the
legislation for the time was a failure,
owing to circumstances which have be-
come part of our history. The next step
they found was this t The present Govern-
ment brought forward an Act, to one of
the controlling provisions of the preamble
of which he would call attention to show
how thoroughly the prmciplc he had
adverted to was incorporated into the
legislation, und hpw utterly inconsistent
it wa-s to some of the clauses of this Bill.
The portion to which he referred was as
iollows:—

" And whereas the House of Commons of
Canada resolved In the session of the year
1871 that the said railway should be con-
structed and worked by private onterprlse,
and not by the Dominion Qovernment, and
that the public aid to bo given to secure Its
accompltshmont should consist of such liberal
grants of land and such subsidy In money or
other aid, not Increasing the then existing
rate of taxation, as the Parliament of Canada
should thereafter determine."

That was the principle upon which this

Bill was based, and yet the enacting clause

was that the principle should be violated

and that the railway should be constructed

by the Government.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Ob, no.

Hon. Mr. DICKEY— But I say, oh yes!
tor it enacts that the Government shall
construct and work the railway. The

Act, it was quite true, continued the
speaker, enables the Government, if they
chose, to give aid to private companies, to
lot the road to contractors to be con-
structed, and worked by liubscription, but
would anyone tell him that that clause
could be canied out ? It was not
pretended for a moment that any
company had been found to take part
of the railway, and yet they were to sup-
pose that twenty companies could be found
to take sub-divisions and not only con-
struct them but work them for all time to
come. It was impossible that private
companies could be found willing to do
that, and it was not at all surprising that
two years after the passage of this Bill
they had not heard of a single company
offering to construct a portion of the
railway. (Hear, bear.) They were to get
$10,000 a mile, a grant of 20,000 acres of
land and a guarantee of four per cent, of an
undefined amount for 25 years ; and yet
notwithstanding all these aids no
company had been found to construct
and work isolated sections. But the Act
decl<vred that the Government i^hall have
power to build the road, although they
bad recited in the Act the principle in-
volved in the legislation of 1871, that the
railway should be constructed by private
enterprise only. Before he passed from
the point, he might notice that the Act
was brought in at the very tail end of
the set.-«ion and received a very slight
consideration. There were only two or
three days to look at it, and it was, there-
fore, not surprising it passed in the man-
ner it did, and that his hon. friends who
were present — for be was not here and
was in no way responsible for it— did not
wish to put themselves in a p_osition of
antagonism to the legislation proposed by
the incoming Government, but desired to
leave to them its responsibility, to enable
them to carry on this great work and keep
faith with British Columbia in the manner
they proposed themselves. But how did
they fulfil what they proposed 7 Before
this Act was passed, tbey had another
policy altogether — the Premier's well-
known policy of water streichei—
to oarrf out this great object
of interoceanic oommunication ; and
this policy, which was carried on to a
limited extent, had been quietly dropped.
Why ? The very construction of the
Pembina Branch, which was so much
talked of,was practically the abandonment
of the water stretch scheme, inasmuch aa
it was to run some seventy miles from the
boundary to Fort Oarry, alongside one of

1 ,
M

the finest navigable riven of the Do-
miiuoD.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db ST. JU=*T
s«id that was not so ; tbe river covered
700 miles ; and tbe road only 200.

Hon. Mr. DICKEY said the hon. gen- j
tleman bimself statbd the other day the ,
distance from tbe American border to |
Fort Garry was only 68 miles ; he was i
talking of our own territory, and criticisinK |
tbe policy of the Government. But that ;
was not all. They bad abandoned the
policy of Parliament, which was to build
tbe road by private enterprise, and com
mittod the country to a ruinous obliga-
tion to build the road themselTes as a
Government work, which they partially
exercised. (Hear, hear.) What was the
next step 7 The Government, without
any authority from Parliament, i>laced
tbe matter in the hands of the Secretary
for tbe Colonies, in order to get his deci-
sion to bring them out of the difiQculty.
The Government foolishly, as he thought,
acceded to the proposition th^ the
question should be referred to Lord Car-
narroo, and after His Ijordsbip had given
his decision upon it. A Minute of Council
was passed on tbe I8th December, 1874,
which was to this efiPect :— That tha pro-
posals could be accepted, "without involv-
ing a violation of the spirit of any Parlia-
mentary resolution or the Ivitter of any
enactment ;" and that "the conclusion at
which His Lordship has arrived upholds,
as he remarks, in the main and subject
only to some modification of detail, the
poUcy adopted Ly this Government on
this most embarrassing question. " They
therefore "respectfully request that Your
Excellency will be pleased
to assure His Lordship that every effort
will be mad3 to secure tbe realization of
what is expected." But it did not sto})
there. An attempt was made to throw u
gloss over this matter, and shift the res-
ponsibility of any failure in carrying out
those terms upon this Houie, but
he would speak of that pre-
sently. He proposed to shew now, in
fact, that the Government themselves
stated that the carrying out of the deci-
sion of Lord Carnavon did not require
any additional legislation at all ; and,
second, that they approved of the course
the Senate took on the Esquimalt and
Nauaimo Bailway, which was one of the
connections. He would take these points
in order. What was that decision ? It
involved an immense outlay of money by
this country. It involved not only the
building of the Esquimalt and Nanaimo

Railway, but also the construction of a
waggon road, a telegraph the whole
length of the line, and the expenditure
of $2,000,000 a year besides. Yet,
all this they were prepared to do, as he
would show by reference to the papers
brought down, without any legislative au-
thority. Within a month before the
Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway Bill was
rejected here, tbe Premier stated, on the
')th March, 1875, after reading the settle-
ment to the House :

" The torniH ro<-oiuin('iMl(«l by Ixjrd Carnar-
von, and which we Imve ucpfipted, are simply
tliOHe: That, InNtcuul of one and a huff
liillllonK, we propose tot-xpeml two nilUlonH
a year within the I'l-DVlnce of Rrltlsh Colum-
bia, and we propose to tlnlsh the railway con-
nection through the I'rovlnce and downward
to the point Indicated by the year 1890, being
an extension of time of nine yorrs. With
respwa to the question raised by my honour-
able friend from (South Bruce, I inUht say
tliat I have nothing to auk from Parliament.
Wo have no authority to obtain, but merely
to communicate to Parliament this decision,
and rely upon the House supporting us In
accepting the terms."

Now matters had somewhat changed ;
there was a change of base very shortly
after\vards, and there began to be an omi-
nous change in tbe political atmosphere.
The hon member for South Bruce had
taken a very decided stand in objecting
to tbe policy and the Government
and the Prime Minister went so far
as to assure tbe hon. gentleman that
there was no necessity for alarm, as all
they prdiJosed to carry out of these term*
was that part which required no legisla-
tion. They thought to quiet the hon*
gentleman) but it had ,not this effect, for
when the Bill came before the House it
met with bis opposition. Tbe Bill passed,
and oaqje in its regular course to the
Senate. The hon. gentleman from Van-
bouver Island ( Elon. Mr. Macdonald) had
stated the othei' day in his place that the
Bill wob sacrificed to party spirit in this
House. It was a most iU'-advised and
unworthy statement, in the face of tbe
fact, that several of the gentlemen who
opposed it were ordinarily supporters of
the Government ; that the hon. member
for South Bruce, who took an active part
in opposing that Bill, was a few short
months afterwards called to one of the
highest positions in the Cabinet, and
ilihat the reasons aiUluced by these gentle-
men for opposing tha Bill were the very
reasons which the Government now gave
for not carrying out Lord Carnarvon's
design. (Hear, hear.) He would prove
it from the papers themselves. Hon.
gentlemen would recollect that the great
argument in the House againsu the measure

uction of a
the whole
xpenditure
des. Yet,
o do, as he
the papers
Sislative au-
before the
ray Bill was
ted, on the
the settle -

ord Carnar-

ar(! simply

iiiU a half

wo IllUlloUH

lllsh Colum-
iilhvay coii-

U downward
1800, beluK
;-r.s. With

my lionour-
inlKlit say

Parliament.

, biu merely

Ills decision,

)rtlng lift In

changed ;
rery shortly
> be an omi-
ktmosphere.
Bruce had
n objecting
overnment,
ent so fai'
leman that
larm, as all
these terms

it the ~hon.
is effect, for
le House it
Bill passed,
irse to the
from Van-
lonald) had
ce that the
pirit in this
idvised and
face of the
/lem(m who
pporters of
>n. member
active part
. few short
one of the
}inet, and
lese gentle-
ire the very
t now gave
::)arnarvon's
ould prove
ves. Hon.
it the great
he measure

was that the Esquimalt and Nanaimo
Railway was not n part of the <'anada
Pacific ; it was a mere local work and was
givon as a sort of soi) to British Columbia.
That was the idea, and it was the conten-
tion of the Opposition that the expendi-
ture of money on that road was frittering
away the means which Parliament had
provided for the construction of the
Pacific Railway. (Hear, hear.) They
had rejected the Bill, and in taking that
oourae and saving a wasteful outlay of
iour millions, they had had the sanction
of the country. He proposed to prove
now that they were right according to
the position tnken by the Government
themselves. Here was their own lan-
guage. One might suppose they had bor-
rowed it from the speeches of bon. gen-
tlemen from that side of the House, in
opposing the Bill, and which ougbc to
put to shame the cuckoo cry of party
spirit in connection with this question,
(llear, hear.) Here was the Minute of
Couucii of the 2(Jth September, and what
what did it say : —

" The proposed llallway from Esquimalt to
Nanalnio does not form a part of tlio Cana-
dian Prclfic ISailway as defined by the Act :
It was Intended to benefit Itxral lntcroi>t8, and
was projiosed as compensation for the disap-
pointment experienced by the nnavoldablo
delay In constructing the Railway across the
t-'ontlnent. The work Is essentially a Ux^al
tvte, and there are obvious reasons against
the ('anadtan (tovernnicnt, under ordinary
circumstances, undertaking tlie construction
of such works, and In favour of their being
built, if at all, by virtue of Provincial action.
(Hear, hear.)

The argument was put m even stronger
language than that used by the Opposi-
tion, because the QoTemment p; jb^bly
had access to facts which tne Opposition
had not $ but the same line of argument
was proposed. Strange to say, this State
paper was issued within some five months
only after the Senate had rejected
the Bill and called down on their
devoted heads the condemnation
of many BU}>porters of the Government
and a portion of th(< press. He gave this,
too, as an illustration of the manner in
which the Government had backed and
filled in their ])olicy with respect to
British Columbia and the Pacific Hallway.
Look again at what they had done in con-
structing a branch ostensibly to connect
the American railway gyattm ivith Fort
Garry, where it was assumed the Canada
Pacific Railway would cross Bed River.
Now we were told the point of crossing
was moved down some twenty-three
miles. They were expending money in
'Constructing the line from Pembina to

Fort Garry : a lino beginning nowhere and.
ending nowhere ; as at Pembina it con-
nected with no part of the American rail-
way, and at Fori Garry it connected with
no part of the Canada Pacific Railway.
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Secretary of
State, in making out his statement to
show where the steel rails were to be
used, had to calculate on the road being
extended twenty-three miles down the
river in order to dieooso of some of them.
Then it had been sui^gestt-d here that the
Georgian Bay Branch was part of the
Pacific Railway, but tht.^ was an after-
thought. 1'be notion was a perfectly
futile one, because in the very Act itself
the Georgian Bay Branch was spoken of
as a branch of the Pacific Railway. There
were only two branches mentioned in the
Act, one the Pembina Branch and
the other the Georgian Bay Branch, but
now th(«y hod this extension from Thtm-
der Bay to Shebandowan as a third
branch, not authorized by the Act. He
had called the attention of the Hon. Sec-
retary of State, the other day, to the fact
that the Canada Pacific Act of 1874 only
provided for the construction of two sec-
tions from Lake Nipissing to Red River,
one on the eastern section from Lake
Nlpissing to some point west of Lake
Superior ; and from that the next section
was to Red River. There was no brjmoh
mentioned there, so if this section from
Thunder Bay was not to form part of the
main line, it was built without the author-
ity of the law. Some hon. gentlemen
could not see the pertinency of the ques-
tions he had put at the time, but the line
from Nepigoa north of Lake Superior was
intended to go west, strike Hat Por-
tage, and go to Red River, being nowhere
nearer than fifty miles to -Thunder Bay.
The truth was, that portion of the line
had not yet been located, and the hon.
gentleman had no right to lead the House
to believe that the line would go round
Lake Superior from Lake Nipissing, in
some unknown way, to Prince Arthur's
Landing. As far as his information wont,
there was no ]>roof whatever that such a
line was practicable at all, and there was
nothing m the official fiport to show
that there was any practical route between
Prince Arthur's Landing and Xipegon. It
was idle to suggest that this Branch at
Prince Arthur's Landing was to be a part
of the main line ; it was simply a link in
the water stretches system soon to be
abandoned, and .t was wasting in its con-
straotion the means that ought to have
gone towards the building of the great tran-

continental railway. In the last rei)ort of
the Chief Engineer they were examining
eaat from Bat Fortafie to Nipegon, in
order to get a line, and it had not been
located. Ho reports : — " Examinations
have been made durini; the pant season
in various sections of the lake region be-
tween Lake of the Woods and Nipegon,
and considerable information obtained.
^\il the portages oo the Dawson route
have been instrumentaliy surveyed with a
view to ascertaining the best means of
overcoming them." There was the situa
tion in which this section was at the latest
report :; they were examining from Rat
Portage east, and from Nipegon west,
and were not yet satisfied that there was
a practicable line. The direct route
would naturally lead them from Nipegon
to Rat Portage and Lake of the Woods.
From Mipegon east it was not known yet
whether an available line could bo found.
The Engineer says : — *' Exploratory sur-
veys have been mado from Nipegon Bay
easterly to Pic River to asositain
if it be practicable to construct
ilM railway along the coast
of Lake Superior ; and explorations
have been made from the mouth of Pic
Mver in as direct a oourse as possible
towwds the eastern teiminus." Not to
go to Oeorgian Bay, but to go in as direct
6 oourse as possible to thu eastern ter-
minus, the south east coast of Lake Nip-
pissing. If the Government had been as
desirous as they expressed themselves to
bo of utilizing the water stretches, would
it not have been natural for them to im-
prove the navigation of French River by
a short canal which would not cost one-
fifth as much as a railway, and secure
water communication all the way to the
foot of Lake Nipissing, the point of con-
nection with that of the extension of the
Canada Central or the navigation of the
Ottawa ? It was quite evident that the
intention of Parliament was that this line
should run as this report said it should
run, in the most direct manner, north of
Lake Nipiesing to Lake Nepigon, and not
south to Georgian Bay, as had been dis-
ingeniously asserted the other day.
(Hear hear.) It was most unfortunate
that in endeavouring to keep faith with
the people of British Coliimbia, as all
hoped and desired the Government to do,
they had not taken some steps to show
that at all events thfy were in earnest in
their endeavours to carry out thi^ inter-
oceanic railway. Instead of starting from
some available point to open up the great
Ncnthwest for settlement, and by means

of immigration to build east and west
from this point, thus adding to the
population and revenue of the Dominion,,
they had di8sii)ated the moans of the
country for the last two years in en<
deavouring to build the Georgian Bay
Branch and other branohos, and in buy-
ing 5U 000 tons of steel rails which wero
not likely to be wanted for many years to
come.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Hear I Hear 1
Hon. Mr. DICKEY said his hon. friend
might say "heart heart" but ho would
require a little more than that to explain
to this House the fact that instead of
expending that money in endeavouring
to construct a portion of the main line
they purchased rails that they did not
require, and sent 6,000 tons of them round
to British Columbia after it was known
that the Esquimault and Nanaimo road
was not to be built, where they could not
be used until they would be rendered
useless by exposure to the weather. The
line sketched on the map started from the
head of Bute Inlet, but anybody who read
the reports or studied the geography of
the country would know that it would
take years to get through that difficult
region and put the line in a condition to
require these rails ; in the meantime they
were to be put into piles, exposed to the
action of the atmosphere, which would
leave ^em in a few yearu not worth half
their cost. It was well known that the
effect of piling masses of iron together
was the same as piling wood, to increase
decomposition. The consequence would
be that in a few years these raits would '
become correspondingly useless, just
as sleepers would be if piled together,
instead of being laid on the track and
kept free from rust by friction of the
trains Upon these grounds he con-
demned the course of the Government in
this matter ; that they had actually dis-
sipated tho means which should have
been used for the purpose of carrying out
in good iaith the agreement with British
Columbia. But their measures had no
tendency to that end, therefore it was
the Government should be prepared with
an explanation. He had to confess that
he shrank from accepting the resolution
before the House. As He had already
stated, he stood upon the principle that
this House was bound by th<>ir legislation
alone. It was not necessary to go back
to addresses and correspondence ; it was
quite sufficiei:.: for them that with the
assent of the representatives of British
Columbia they had made an arrangement,.

and wcit
: to the
>bminioD.
of the
in en-
;ian Bay

and that arrangement waa embodied in a
reiolution ani Act of Parliament, and to
that arrangement Canada ought religiouily
to adhere. He took that as the starting
point apart altogether from that pmlimi-
narv nei^otiation. His hon. friend (Mr.
Carrall) did not propone anything prao
tical by passing this resolution, but at the
end an amendment was intended, he
presumed, to some extent to justify the
action of the action of the QoTernment in
doing nothing. But see how absurd this
amendment would be. His hon. friend's
resolution was to the following effect,
(see r«>solution) and the amendment was
to strike out all the words after "effort,"
and to add something, but the previous
part of the resolution was to be kept in so
that it would read,aB amended, as follows:
Kesolved, That the construction of the
Pacific Railway having formed the prinoi-

Eal condition upon which British Oolum-
ia entered the Canadian Confederation,
every reasonable effort, without increas-
ing the taxation of this country, should
be made by the Government of the Do
minion to satisfy the people of that Prov-
ince that faith will be kept with them.

His hon. friend's resolution went back
to the original terms of confederation
and said these terms must be fulfilled,
•nd yet with absurd inconsistency it said
that this railway should not be built with
any increase in the rate of taxation.
There was nothing about increase of tax-
. ation in these terms, which bis resolution
re-aiBrms. lie supported the Govern-
ment in thin, that they were not bound to
carry out that great work irrespective of
the terms placed in the statute book,
and yet the Government were asked to
support this amendment. They could
defend themselves if they bad acted rig
orously and carried out the policy nhioh
they had put on the statute book } but
they had not done so, and here his
hon. friend (Mr. Haythorne) came in with
a white-washing resolution for the Gov-
ernmentiWhichsaid, "by the original terms
•of union you must be bound," and asked
the House to endorse the original resolu-
'tion and bay, ''by the terms of the entry of
British Columbia into the union we must
carry out this work" — that this railway
must be built taxation or no tax-
ation. But these were not the
terms which were upon the Act of
Parliament, and the terms of the Act
should be adhered to. In future he hoped
it would not be the cose, as had been in
the post two years, that the means of the
v.oouatry would b« dissipated upon branoh

roads, steel rails, &o., which ooet millions
of dollars, but at the same time did nofc
add one mile to the construction of this
great public work. lie hoped the House
wdiad nay to British Columbia, on one
hand, " We are prepared honestly and
truly to carry out the terms on which you
\vere admitted by Parliament into C<m-
federation { but, on the other hand, we
ore not prepared, nor would you ask ua,
to ruin this country by any unreasonable
act on our pmt* to carry out this work."
(Hear, bear.) He hoped the House would
neither accept the original resol ition nor
the aninndment of the hon. gentlemen
from Prince Edward Island and reaffirm
what the (government themselves in their
Minute in Council repudiated. (Hear,
hear)

Hon. Mr. HAYTHORNE moved in
amendment that all after the word
"effort" be struck out, and the following
substituted : — '* Without increasing the
taxation of this country, should be mode
by the Government of the Dominion to
satisfy the people of that Province that
faith will be kept with them." He said
alter listening to the speech of the hon.
gentleman wio had just taken his seat, he
had come to the conclusion that it was a
most able effort of a most able special

E leader. The House, however, should not
e led away by the words of a sp<>oial
pleader, but by sound principles of poliojr
and statesmanship He had reirarded
this question with the utmost sympathy
towards British Columbia; being con*
neoted himself with a lately annexed
Province, he telt that the injury, if here
was any, which British Columbia com*
plained of might have been the case of
Prince Edward Island. It might be that
the Government would meet their en-
gagements with that Province with
similar inattention and neglect, and then
the pedple of Prince £ Iwai-d Island might
have a just cause of complaint. He
would simply do this when he iieard hon.
gentlemen from British Columbia com*
plaining that the term^ under wbich they
came into the Confederation had not
been faithfully kept: endeavour to put
himself in tlieir place, and ask himself
how he would act if he were placed in the
same position. He admired tbeir courage
and constancy in occupying tiMt remote
part of the British Empire and establiob-
ifig their homes there. He admired the
fine climate of tueir Provinoe,the fertility
of their soil, their splendid timber, their
mineral wealth and otber resouroM^
and especially their firmness

li!

coosiiUnoy la demanding tLe Tul-
iilment of their terms of Confederation.
He considered the Paoifio Ilailwuy neither
A firitirh Cohimbian nor • Cui»diiui road,
but an Im]>erial work, and it should
have been so considered ever since its in-
ception. He would, with the leave of
the liouse, quote a dsspatch from l']arl
Granville to 8ir li. Musgiave, t'ormeily
Governor of British ('olumbia, which
proved the action of the British Goveru-
xnent, and the amount of influence
brought to bear by them on the under-
taking. In 1869 British Columbia hud
been invited to enter con federal ioq,
and the aubject was introduced to the
notice of her people through the instru-
mentality of that despatch from which he
would read a short extract.

" Her Majesty's Government anticipate
that the interest of every Province of
British North America will be more ad
vanced by enabling the wealth, credit and
intelligence of the whole to be brought to
to bear on every part, than by encourag
ing each in the contracted policy of tak-
ing care of itself, possibly at the expense
of its neighbour. Most especially is this
true in the case of internal transit, it is
OTident the establishment of British line
of communication between the A tlantic
and Pacific Oceans is far mere feasible by
the operations of a single Government,
responsible for the progress of both shores
of the continent, than by a bargain ne-
gotiated between separate, perhaps in
aome respects, rival Governments and
Legislatures. The San Francisco of
iBritisb North America would, under these
oircumstancee, hold a greater commer
loial and political position than would be
attainable by the isolated capital of
British Columbia. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment are aware that the distance between
Ottawa and Victoria presents a real dif-
£cult)r .<n the way of immediate union.
But that very diflSculty will not be with-
out its advantage if it renders easy com-
munication indispensable, and forces on-
wards the operations which are to com
plete it. In any case it is an understood
inconvenience and a diminishing one, and
it appears far better to accept it as «
temporary drawback on the Mlvantaaea
of union, than to wait for those obstaoles,
often more intractable, which are sure to
apring up after a neglected opportunity."

In that despatch we were told
expression was given to the ma-
tured views of the British Government
Thus it appeared to him that the British
Government bad almost identified them-

selves with the construction of the great
Intercolonial highway, and they might
fairly bo asked to contribute largely
towards it. He was well aware of tba
difficulty of inducing the Imperial au-
thorities to take hold of Colonial ques-
tions, but this was more than an ordinary
undertaking and would form the ^reat
meunis of communication between the
East and the West, and he need not re-
mind hon. gentlemen of the great im-
portance eastern tiaffic had always main*
tainod throughout the history of the civi-
lized world. Great Britain had recently,
without waiting for the oonsent of Parlia-
ment, invested several millions of pounds
in the purchase of a controlling interest
in the Suez Canal, which in many res-
pects was an analagoua undertaking to
this Imperial railway. There was no
dor . tf the matter was properly cou-
di d, English aid could be secured for
til instruction of the Paoifio liailway.
He . iitertained the highest retpeot, es-
teem and regard for the Mother Count -y,
but he could not undertake to say ua
was faultless, and in this matter she had
not acted with the wisdom and liberality
we had the right to expect. When she
made over the Northwest territories to
Canada she did not treat Canada well ;.
the Imperia Government ought to have
banded over the Hudson Bay Territory
without any reserve and without charg-
ing; the Dominion a dollar for it. It
might be thought that the reservations
the Company were allowed to retain were
comparatively valueless. He had no per-
soual acquaintance with them himself,
but had endeavoured to inform himself
through the medium of books and pam-
phlets. He had here an able pamphlet writ-
ten by a member of the House of Commons,
Mr. Trow, from which he learned that
some of the reserves of the Hudson's
Bay Company in the city of Winnipeg
had realized as much as (7,000 per acre :
and he believed be could have produced
statements of a similor nature from the
London Times. With reference to the
probable future loss we would sustain if
this road was prosecuted, all he could say
was that if we owned, and wished to make
any t ling of the country, we must have
that road. Of what use was the richest
land or the most valuable minerals unlesa
we could have easy access to them 7 la
this respect we should learn from the ex-
perience of our neighbours across the
line ; their history demonstrated that
population, we■^lth and traffic immediately
followed tiie ooostruotion of railways.

.S8

There wm no ground for thinkinK th<>
oonstruotion of the road would be » dit-
Miroutly loiing undertaking. It wu
ft thing which muat be done, and
the aooner tite better, without
adding to the taxation of the country. Sir
John Hawkshaw, the great oivil engineer,
and who wan now rrcaident of the British
AiHOciation, in hit inau|{ural addreu hero
valuable teHtimony to tho advantage! of
railwayg in buiallng up a country : be
ahowed cnnolusively that the valu« of the
Lancashire and Yorkshire Kailroad to the
British public was more than equal to the
dividends received bv tho stockholders.
And that high autliority further stated
that the value of the British railway Hys-
tem- that Ih, its saving in oout of freight,
fares and time to the public — was equal
to not lers then 10 per cent, on (he totd
ooat. Now, wa'know that between six
hundred and sevon hundred million
pounds sterling had been expended in
the British Isles on railways. He there
fore came to the conclusion that their
annual value to the nation, over and
above the demands of the shareholders,
was not less than nizty million pounds
sterling. Sir John Hawkshaw furlhor
aaid there might be instances in which
it would be justifiable for governments to
aisist in the construction of railways, and
declared emphatically that such advan-
tages would 06 recouped speedily by the
great improvement et the pouition of the
people, and that, ho thouitht, was also the
experience of every Oovernment ard
municipality in Canada. In proof of this
view. Sir John cited the case of Russia,
ivhich was analogous in many respects to
the Northwest. The climates were not
very dissimilar. Each had tracts
of country called prairids here
and in Russia steppes, and both would be
vastly improved by internal communico
tlon. The want- cf this had been severely
felt by that empire, which had buffered
greatly in times of war. The standing
armies of Europe te^ied to drive out the
youth of that oon^ .aent to America, where
they could cultivate the arts of peace,
and utilize the best periods of their lives ;
and thus a guarantee was afforded that
the progress of that country would be
rapid as soon as the road was <ypened up.
He considered the tide of emigration was
only temporarily checked, not turned,
and that the North-West and British
Columbia would fill up with population
from Europe on the one hand^ and from
the dense population from Chma and the
East on ike other. With regard to the

expenditure to be incurred, he took the
view that there was a vaHt difference in
national debts us to whether they were
incurred for reproductive rather than
warlike purposes. It was gratifying to
know that not u dollar o*' our debt has
been incurre<I for war or armaments.
This fact ought tc stimulate us to
greater exertions in the proHCCuo
tion of tliis important v>ork. £v<m
if the '!ebt was largely increased
thereby, it '.vould b« diHtributed amopgst
a much larger population, which would be
one of thr results of the completion of the
railway. The question at issue between
British Columbia and the Dominion, if the
respective Rovernments could not agree,
should be submitted to coini)et«tnt arbi-
tration, and tbe award faithfully and
promptly ocmplied with. He regielted the
rejection of the Esquimalt aad Nanaimo
Railway measure, but he thout;ht the Gov-
ernment in offering f7r)(),()0() to British
Columbia for thn delay which had been
incurred had acted with groat fairness.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL said that sum was
offered for delays which might occur.

Hon. Mr. HAYTH( »RNE said he would
not split hairs on the point ; he thought
the proposition of the Qovernoient a lib-
eral one. Tboy had no right to regard
the railway as a British Columbian work :
it was an Imperial work, and ought to be
so regarded. Canada was as severe a
loser from the delay as that province.
He did not intend to defend the policy of
the Qoverament, but he hoped that in ap-
proaching this question hon. members
would forget party. If it was desired to

Kass a vote of want of confidence it should
B done in a direct way and not by means
of such resolutions as this under discoi-
sion ; it was unstatesmanlike to mix up a
great national work with a vott of censure
or want of confidence. In conclusion, be
asked the House to deal with this ques-
tion on its merits and not to consider it
from a party stand-point.

Hon. Mr. i'AQUE T While cheerfully
admitting tbe ability brought to bear by
hon. members who have spoken on this
subject, I feel bound to explain to the
House some of the reasons which make
me regret the hostile attitude they have
displayed toward the Administration,
which, in my opinion, does not merit theur
censures. Doubtless hon. gentlemen
from British Columbia have given here
expression to the views entertained by
the Legislative Assembly of that Pro-
vince, which views are explained in the
Address presented to Her Miyesty, un-

der date the 2nd of F(;bruai y last. In
this document it is alleged that the Fed-
eral Government has completely violated
its engagements, since it baa commenced
the railway neither on the Island nor on
the mainland, nor constructed a highway
or line of telegraph, all of which had
been promised British Columbia on her
joining the Confederation. As regards
the line from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, the
Qovernmont bad last y«ar obtained the
api^roval of the House of Commons to a
measure which, when it came up to the
House, was asEailed in a partizan spirit
which I would not have expected, and
despite the effo*'ts of the Minister of
Agriculture and those of the Secretary of
State that measure was defeated. If there
is cause for reproach, on whom must it
fall ? With respect to the railroad on the
m'^inland, the Mmister of Agriculture the
other day informed the House without
contradiction that the surveys were be-
ing carried on vi^^orously, and that so
grave are the geographical difficulties that
notwithstanding the surveys already
made by the engineers, the only men
competent in such cases, the Government
has as yet been unable to arrive
at the much desired aoiutioL.
How, then, can the Government be
blamed when the location of the line,
which must of necessity precede construc-
tion, has not been settled? The same
remarks are applicable to the highway,
wli ch also must precede the railway, and
to the telegruijh iine, of which 500 miles
have already been laid. The material for
its construction is prepared along the
route, f specially in Columbia, and only
awaits the fixing of the location. One of
the paragraphs of the Address from tha
Legislative Assembly, to which I ha'~e
alluded in my remarks, contains the fol-
lowing, respecting the promise to carry
but anergeticBlly the surveys: — "There
are no authorized data upon which to
base a formal opinion.'' Wtiat is not con-
tained there has been told us here. The
Minister otJ ^jriculture informs the House,
on the part of the Administration, of
which he is so distinguished a member,
that the greatest diligence has been
used, and that the most sincere desire is
felt to carry out zhe terms of union. It
is within the knowledge of bon. gentle •
men from Columbia th«t enormous ex-
pense has alr<>ady been incurred with this
object. I'hat they are cunscioui of this
expenditure, their reticence on the subject
amply testifies. I regret to hear the
Government aocaaed of bre«oh of f&itb, Af

violating the pledges of the country.
Whpt are the factn Under the Act of
Union with British Columbia, the Paclfio
Railway was to be constructed. It should
run over a distance of some '^700 miles
starting from the Pacific Ocean, to such a
point as should be designated by Ilia
Excellency in Council, at or near
Lake Nipissing, within ten years.
The present Government having
declared that upwards of two years
bad elapsed without appreciable informa-
tion being obtained as regarded the sur-
veys already made, found itself utterly
powerless to carry out the terms of union,
and delegated Mr. E Igar as its charge
cTaffaires to propose to British Columb'a a
change, in view of the utter impobsibility
of completing the line wif^'in the time
stipulated. In token of ijs good fa'th and
wishen, it offered them to construct the
line between Esquimalt and Nanaimo, a
distance of 160 miles, and costintt about
$8,000,000 ; and to execute other works
of recognized utility, the cost of which
would have trebled this sum, in order to
show the siste" province the almost instir-
mountable obstacles the country had to
deal with. British Columbian discontent
began to manifest itself, and resort.?d even
to Lord Carnarvon, who, as arbitrator, ap-
proved the course adopted by the Domi-
nion Government, while suggesting R ''W
unimportant modifications. Since )87i
it has been recognized that this stupen-
dous work would be undertaken solely on
condition that no fresh burdens were to
be imposed on the people, as would be
seen by reference to the proceedings of
the Lower Hous«>, which in the month rf
April of that ye»»r adopted a redolution
proposed in this sense by Sir Geo. Car-
tier, and thia too in presence of Mr.
Trutoh, one of the delegates, who 8incv>
has occupied the highest social position
in his province. While readily admitting
that this express condition was not in-
cluded in the terms of union, British
Columbia ought to abandon her hitherto
hostile attitude in view of the good will
manifested subsequently in her regard by
the votmg and expenditure of upwards of
a million dollars for surveys in connection
with the railway on her coast alone. The
better ^erias offered in 1874, over and
above those of the agreement, amounting
toBome 130,000,000, ought to place the
Governnlent beyond the reach of any un<
friendly criticism. Another consideration
which cannot altogether be left out of
view is (he increase of the tariff in 1874.
Cont,rar7 to tbe decision of 1871, to which

I have talludod, this increase was neces-
sitated by tho enterprise in question.
Hon. geatlemen trom British Col'imbia
cannot charge the GoTernment with the
failure of various companiee> who atteaint-
ed to undertal(e this work. How should
the failure to obtain money in England be
laid at the doors of the present Adminis-
tration ? The change of policy thus neces-
sitated rendered it impossible to have the
road built by a company and obliged the
Government to net about the construction
themselves, while they r< :^ained the au
thority given by the Act V let the work to
a company or comparucs competent to
undertake th« const uclion. The work
should be proceeded wiih prudently.
Without repudiating an engagement to
which they were in honour bound, which
the Government will never do, it will
scrupulously watch over the interests of
the Confederation, of which British
Columbia forms only the four hundredth
part in population. In view of the re-
Jusalof this honourable House last ye^r
to ratify the engagement to construct a
line from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, the
Oovernment endeavoured to satisfy the
Province by the offer of a subsidy
of $750,000, to be applied exclusively to
local obj-cts. Hon. senllemen wilt ob
serve, l\aving in view the population of
the Province, that the amount mentioned
Jropre^^enta a gilt to the rest of the Domiii-
i'-a of $300,000,000, if it were to be treat-
«d in the same manner. It is in face of this
Jib«>rAlity, in face of the earnest desire to
fulfil obligations on the one side, that
discontent and hostility are manifested
on the other. Such conduct is unrea-
BODable. Fortunately we Gnd in an Order
in Council, dated the 13th of March last,
thiu i^iportant paragraph, " that it is
incumbent on Government to pu^h on the
ooastruction of the Pacific Railway as
fast as the resources of the country will
permit." Everything will be done, I
doubt not, to realize the accomplishment
of this gigantic work, to whose importance
I attach as much value as any other hon.
member of this House. While I deplore
the ezistini; discontent, which no argu-
ment can j-jstify, the Crovemment is to
be congratulated on having sucoccsfi'.ny
withstood the storm, and on having nobly
peformed iti duty. Consequently I pro-
poso, seconded by. the Hon. Mr. F»bro,
in amendment to the Amendment of my
hon. friend from P'-ince Edward Island.
thai; the words, "the principal condition"
iu the third line of the motion of my hon.
IHciDd from Caribao be abraok out and the

words, *' one of the conditions," be sub-
stituted therefor.

Hon Mr. SCOTT said he could fully
understand, an 1 make due allowance for
the disappointment of his hon. friends
from British Columbia had sustainc I in
the non construction the Pacific Rail-
wav, in accordance with the terms they
had formed in 1871. When they went
back to that period, and remembered the
speeches that were then made, and the
bright pictures that were drawn of this
inter-oceaaio railway, they could not but
apprehend the great disappointment that
Province must inevitably f -el at the non-
construction of the work. It seemed
when this subject camo up for discussion
thon, that the difficulties of the route
were never contemplated, and only
roseate pictures were drawn of the vast
extent of magnificent country lying be-
tween here and the Paci'ic coast. The
only books that were written on it were
those written by Sir George Simpson, aad
the only persons who had travelled through
the West were those who had travelled by
the o«aoe routes, an<l had viewed the
beautiful valleys and streams from a dis-
tance. It was thought they had little
more to do th<<n to strike out a line due
west to the Pacific, lay down our ties,
and on them place the rails. But they
found in 1873, at the end of two years
within which the Government of Canada
undertook to commence the construction
of the road, that they had up that lime
failed to find a line from Nipissinff
to the Pacific. The first document
that met their eyes in this blue
book was a protest sent in July, 1873, fronH
British Columbia to the Government of
the Dominion, calling attnution to the fact
thatthe two years had expired within which
the railway should have been commenced*
That protest of the Bnt'sh Columbia Gov-
ernment received a formal aoknowlegd-
ment from the Federal Government. In
November, 1873, about the time the change
of Government took place in Canada,
another communication was sent from
the Pacific slOi u, calling attention to the
fact that their protest had not received
the due consideration which it deserved,
and asain protesting ai^ainst the grvss
breach of faitn on the part of the Dominion
of Canada. So the present Government
found things when the change took place
in the management of affairs at Ottawa.
While all the geotlamen who formed the
present Administration had, he believed^
on many occasions, given utterance to no
unoek'tiin sound as (o what they thcught

of the proposition to construot a road
through 2,700 mileg of wilderness to the
Pacific coast, within the time limited by
the terms of union, and how utterly im-
practicable they considered it; yet, in
view of their serious responsibility, they
get themselves to work to ascertain by what
means they could secure such a rearrange-
ment of the terms as was reasonable.
They did not deceive the people of
British Columbia, and tell them they were
going to build this road within a number
of years ; but they said to British Colum-
bia, through their agent, Mr. Edgar, "You,
with ourselves, must appreciate the
great magnitude of this work, and
you must be prepared to make such
sacrifices as are necessary for the honour
of the Dominion. The Government will
proceed with the construction of the
road as fast as the means of the country
would allow . ■ ' They all knew the propos-
als made by Mr. Edgar. One of those
proposals was the construction of the
Esquimalt and Nanaimo Bailway. Here
he would make some remarks on the
speech of the hon. gentleman, (Mr.
Pickey,) who, he regretted, was not in his
place iiow, when he charged he Gov-
ernment ^vith inconsistency with respect
to the petitions, the Minutes in C'uncil,
and the submission to Lord Carnarvon for
ai-bitralion. AU these matters were
in the blue bo; k, and one wbo studied
them would corae to the conclusion that
the course of the Government was per-
fectly consistent from first to last. Ue
would here draw attention to the very
noticeable fact that it was probably for
the first time discussed in this Chamber.
The Government, as their predecessors
did, proposed to make Esquimalt the
terminus of the Pacific Bailway. He
mentioned this to show that when they
passed the Pacific Railway Act of 18T4,
they ignorad this Order in Council. By
the Minute in Council passed on the 7th
day oF June, 1873, the Government of
Sir John Macdonald committed them-
selves to fixing the terminus of the
railway at Eoquimalt. Coming to the
legislation that followed, honourable
gentlemen would aee that the
present Government entirely ignored
uny such conclusion. They assumed that
that was wholly unwarranted ; that the
Dominion of Canada in its treaty with
British Columbia was bound to build the
railway only to the waters of the Pacific,
and not to cross to Vancouver Island .
In the Act of 1874 reference was made to
it in these words:— "A rvilwaj to be

called the Canadian Pacific Bailway, shall
be made from some point near to and
south of Lake Nipissing, to some point in
British Columbia on the Pacific Ocean,
both the said pomts to be determined
and the course and lino of the said rail-
wav to be approved of by the Governor in
Council."

Tuey entirely ignored the proposition
that tbis country was bound to build a
railway on Vancouver Island, when the
proposition was made to British Columbia^
that in view of the long delays that had
elapsed, and the disappointments they
had experienced, they thought it reason*
able to make some concession here by
way of building this line from Esqui-
mault to Nansimo. With the meagre
knowledge they then possessed of the
country, it was assumed that it would be
of some value to British Columbia ; that
it would run through a country suscepv
tible of development, rich in minerala
and coal^ and as some consideration
for thedisapppointment they had na>
turally experienced in the non-fulfil-
ment of the terms hy Canada
as had been anticipated. In order
to show hon. gentlemen how
thoroughly that was borne out in the cor-
respondence he would now advert to the
Minute in Council passed in 1874, some
months later. It would be found in the
copy of the report of the Minute of 17th
September, 1874 ; this was the time when
negotiations were passing with the Im-
perial Government, the result of which
was that liord Carnarvon ofiered to act as
arbitrator. This Minute showed that the
Government considered it wholly and
entirely as a concession to British Co-
lumbia, and ao. som? compensation for
their dissppc'intment.

Hon. Mi. CARRALL— Will the Hon^
Secretary of 8tat«> undertake to say what
the exact meaning of the Minute in
Council was when they made that offer of
|7oO,000 ; was i'< for the relinquishment
of the railway 7

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— I will tell my hon.
friend i'o was honestly intended as com*
pensation for the defeat of the Esquimalt
and Nanaimo Bill in tbis House.

Hon. Mr. CARIIALL-And not for de-
lays which might occur.

Hon. Mr. SCO IT said it was not. Tlio
Government would build the road just so
soon as the circumstances of the country
would warrant it. The hon. gentleman
had only to look at the correspondence,.
and he would see that no other possible
oonoluaion could be arrived at. In the

•f-**-'W'«

ailway, shall
lear to and
Dme point in
citic Ocean^
determinecl
the said rail-
Governor JU

proposition
to build a
. when the
jh Columbia^
lys that bad
mpnts they
bt it reasoD-
lion here by
from Etqui-
the meagre
saed of the
it would be
umbia; that
ntry susoepv
'n mineral*
onsideratiott
>y had na-
sonfulfil-
by Canada
In order
smen how
it in the cor-
bdvert to the
1874, some
bund in the
Qute of 17th
le time when
rith the Im-
It of which
red to aot aa
ced that tho
wholly and
firitish Co-
maation for

11 the Hon.
to say what
Minute in
thatoflfer of
nquishment

;ell my bon.
ed as com-
> Esquimalt
le.
not for de>

B not. Tlie
road just so
tihe country
gentlemaa
spondenoe^.
er possible
%U In the

irst place this fEequimalt & Nanaimo

Railway was offered as compensation

for the delays in the construction of the

Pacific Railway ; that being taken away,

id the Government feeling that they

|were in duty bound to make some com-

lensatioD, then suggested this $7oO,000.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL-We coidd not

Ifind it out at the time.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Our friends in Brit-
lisli Columbia have always been so unfor-
jtunate as to draw the most imjust con-
I elusions.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— Unfortunately,
[the organ of the Qovernment, the Toronto
[Olobe, came to tbe same conclusion.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the Toronto Olobe
Idid not speak the sentiments of tbe Gov-
jernment, and the Government did not
I consult it in passing their Orders in
ICouncil. The despatch to Lord Gamar-
iTon, of the 17th September, 1874, says:
J*' It is proper to notice, seriatim, the seve-
fral grounds of complaint as stated in the
Idespatoh : —

" 1st That nothing is being done by
[the Dominion (Government towards com-
lencing and pushing on a railway from
Ssquimalt to Nanaimo."

The Dominion has no engagement to
^uild such a railway, and therefore there
Pcan be no just compUint that it is not
[commenced. The constrmtion of such
a railway was oSVred only as compensation
for delay in fulfilling the engagement to
I build a railway to the " Pacific seaboard."
I He thought the hon. gentleman would be
prepared to say there was no uncertain
meaning in that ; that it was all in har-
mony with the speeches and policy of the
Ckivernment. If they wanted further proof
of that it would be found that in ths
bill of last year, and in that there was no
reference to its being part of tbe Pacific
Railway. But the hon. gentleman who sat
at the Council Board in the late Govern-
ment (Mr. Aikins), who gave his sanction
to the location of the western terminus
at Esquimalt, was the same gentleman who
proposed to give the six months hoist to
thin Bill last year, on the ground that it
was simply a local road. On that occasion
be had said, " By the provisions of the
present Bill, not only was the Canada
Pacific to be built, but in order
to allay the discontent in British
Columbia, in consequence of tbe Govern-
ment not completing the bargain with it,
thpy now proposed to build sixty miles of
railway on that island, for themselves,
forming no part of the Pacific Railway.
He for one would not object to the BiU,

but it was not so understood," And the
hon. gentleman who put this motion of
the paper (Mr. Carrall) also spoke on
ii as a local work, and the hon. gentleman
who spoke first tbis afternoon used very
much the same terms. Under these oir*
cumstances he did not see how this Gov-
ernment were justified in putting this
heavy expense on the Dominion for what
his hon. friend (Mr. Carrall) had called
" a local work." He thought it was per-
fectly clear and consistent from the be-
ginning, and that this Souse and this
country k» ew precisely what the policy
of the Government was with respect to
the Eaquimait Railway. Not a word or
line was ever written ciy this Government
that would justify the conclusion that it
was to form part of the Paoifio Railway.
A point was attempted to be made out of
the fact *liat tbis Government had gone
on and anticipated — so to speak — the
construction of this work. When they
found that their predecessors in office
had committed themselves to the con-
struction of this road on the island and
carry it as far as Esquimalt, when
they found British Columbia was anxious
for it, and that Lord Carnarvon had made'
it part of the terms, the Ministry were
justified in coming to the conclusion that
Parliament would ratify the solemn
treaty entered into with British Co-
lumbia on the arbitration of the leading
Minister of the Imperial Govern-
ment. They thought, therefore, they
were quite safe in making arrangements
for the construction of tbe road, as no
one would have believed it possible that
those gentlemen who had formerly put
their record on paper that this road was
to be part of the Pacific Railway, and
E'lquimalt was to be the terminus, Jwoulci
have been lirat and foremost in- voting
down tbis Bill.

Hon. Mr. MACPHER30N— The Gov-
ernment s^nt the rails to British Colum-
bia after the Bill wai lost.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said they were order-
ed before the Bill was lost, and it was the
action of this House that prevented their
being used.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— It was your
own supporters who threw out the Bill.

Hou. Mr. SCOrr said the hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Campbell,) led him to the
conclusion that his policy was "party
first and British Ckilumbia afterwards."
When the proposition was read first on
the floor of this House that 9750,000
should be given to British Columbia, that
gentleman announoed at the outset that

■fi

he prepared to vote it down, but still the
hon. gentleman from British Columbia
would cling to the Opposition fi-om whom
they never received one single assurance
beyond the mere empty speeches that
were made that this line would be carried
out. He had pretty clearly establ'.Bh--d
that the course of the Govei-nment
with reference to the Esquimau
and Nanaimo Railway was tolera^>ly
consistent throughout. He did not desire
in any way to reflect on the late Govern-
ment for their apparent inactivity in
allowing two years to go over before com-
mencing the construction of this work,
because, he believed, after these
two years had passed they had
Just began to appreciate the mag-
nitude of the work. Before that fine
Bpeeehes were made of what this coun-
try was to be when this railway would be
constructed. One would suppose from
residing the speeches msde m those days
that a fairy wand was to touch the coun-
try and at once the railway would spring
into existence ; the stem fact that a rail-
way through 2,700 miles of wilderness
had to he made, compassed and travelled,
had not been studied. When the solemn
compact was entered into with British
Columbia there were not five men living
who had ever gone over the line of what
be hoped would one day form the Pacific
Bailway. Take the stretch of country
south of Lake Nipissing and from thence
north of Lakes Huron and Superior, by
Lake Nepigon, and who had been over
this unknown wilderness but tho traders
and trappers of the Hudson's Bay Com-
pany, who simply saw the country from
their canoes as they passed along the
streams. 'J'hen coming to Fort Edmon-
ton tho Rocky Mountains rose with a series
cf ranges until within thirty miles of the
Pacific they found themselves ^,000 feet
above the level of the sea. And yet hon.
gentlemen would say this Government
bad not done their dutv because
they had not rushed blindly into
the construction of this road Uis hon.
friend opposite (Mr. M<iC2:)her8on), who
was a man of large railway experience,
thought the Government ought to satisfy
the people of British Columbia. Ihey
should commence the construction of the
road in that Province without delay, and
expend some money, and because they had
not done so he thought be was justified
in his strictures on the Government. One
would suppose from the observations of
the hon. gentlemen that since the change
of Government, and while this discussion

had been going on, the Ministry had been
standing still ; that when they took office
they had folded their arms, locked up
the public chests, entirelv disregarded
the construction of the railway, and in*
dulged in paper bullets between them-
selves and British Columbia. Had they
discontinued the surveys ? No ; and
when he gave the figures of expenditures
as they went along they would acquit the
Government of any desire to shirk the
performance of their dutjf or postpone
the construction of this work. They
found that up to the change of Govern-
ment, although two years had elapsed,
after considerably less than one million o'
dollars had been expended, no line had
been located, and no particulars of the
country bad been given. Hince that time
surveys had gone steadily forward, and at
the present moment the total amount ex-
pended for surveys alone was not less
than $2,2^6,987.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— For the whole
road '

Hon. Mr. SC ITT said yss ; for the
whole road . British Columbia was only
one-fourth of the whole road, but the
amount expended in that section exceed-
ed one million of dollars.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— You give the
total expense for surveys since the incep-
tion of the Pacific Railway. Does that
total embrace thb money expended for
surveys for the Fetnbina Branch and
other branches ?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it include 1 the
whole. He did not think any money had
been expended on the Georgian Baj
Branch ; the whole amount paid to the
contractor was only $20,000 ; but in Bri-
tish Columbia they had eight different
parties of 35 or 40 men each at work
during the past year.

It being six o'clock, a proposition was
made informally that the tipeakei should
leave the chair.

Other members proposed to adjourn.

Hon. Mr. BO lTSFi>RD moved the ad-
journment of the House, which was car-
ried.

Friday, March 31.

The PRESIDENT took the chair at 3
p. m.
After routine.

TOE PAOIFIO BAILWAT.

On the resumption of the debate
on Hon. Mr. Carrall's motion being
called,

■Hon.
aendm
|>y Hon.
aovcd
. the w
I the or
Jtcad th<
pognizoB
itruction
ith the
^ue rega
iients of
July inci
egrets
Jovernn

'or the whole

JHon. Mr. DICKEY proposed an
lendment to the amendment proposed
|>y Hon. Mr. Haythome to the resolution
aoved by Hon. Mr. Carrall, to leave out
in the words after the word "resolved "
the original resolution, and to add in-
stead thereof, "that this House fully re-
cognizes the obligation to secure the oon-
ptniction of the Canada Facifio Railway,
rith the u'^most speed compatible with a
lue regard to the other financial require-
ments of the Dominion, and without un-
luly increasing the rate of taxation, and
agrets that the course adopted by the
Government, in connection with this mat-
er, has nr>t mot the expectations of the
people of British Columbia, nor has it been
^uob as to facilitate the development of

Hon. Mr. SCOTT then rose to resume
Ills speech of the previous evening. After
^tatins his position at the adjournment of
lie House, he said his bon. fri«nd
Opposite seemed to think that the
1750,000 offered to British Columbia
Iras compensation for future delays. He
lid not think the spirit of the oorres-
bondence warranted any such conclusion,
pe spirit of the Order in Council was

erfectly clear that the object of the Gov-
rnment was to compensate the Province
}r delays incidental to the construction
|f the road.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— Wag the money
|>ffered for the relinquishment of the Is

id Railway, or for delays which had or
light occur in the construction of the
transcontinental road ?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said— In the first
|)lace, the offer to build the island road
jtras in consideration of the delays in the
Bonotruction of the main line. That offer
vas made over and above what the Gov-
ernment seemed bound to do. The
^750,000 was offered in lieu of the Island
k'ailway.

Hon. Mr. MILLER said be bad under-
stood the Order in Council differently,
intil the Hon. Secretary of State had
}iven this explanation. But if the Esqui
lalt and Nanaimo Railway were offered
iPor delays on the Mainland, and the $75U,-
(1)00 were offered for the delays on the
Island Railway, it must be as compensa-
tiou for past and future delays.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Certainly.

Hon. Mr. MILLER asked what differ-
snce it made to have the word "future*'
^n the despatch.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the objection

s, that it conveyed an entirely false im-
pression that the construction of the road

was to be postponed until an ind<!finite
perlol. Here were the words of the
Minute of the 20th of September,
1875 :—

" The Bill which the Government in-
troduced into the House of Commons to
provide for building the railway, evoked
a considerable degree of opposition in
'.bat House and in the country, and,
although passed by the House of Com-
mons, it was afterwards rejected in the
Senate, and thus there is imposed upon
the Government the duty of considering
some other method of meeting all just
expectations of the people of British
Columbia, whose Government has not
suggested to this Government any solution
of the difficulty.

" It W' >uld seem reasonable that the
people of British Columbia should con-
struct this work themselves, or (if they
think other local public works more ad-
vantageous) should, in lieu of this, them«
selves undertake such other local public
works, and that the comi^ensation to be
given them by Canada for any delays
which may take place in the construction
of the Pacific Railway, should be in the
form of a cash bonus to be applied
towards the local railway, or such other
local works as the Legislature of British
Columbia may undertake, Canada also
surrendering any claim to lands which
may have been reserved in Vancouver
Island for railway purposes

" The sum of $750,000 would appear to
the Committee to be a liberal compensa-
tion, and the Committee advise that the
Government of British Columbia be in-
formed that this Government is prepared
to propose to Parliament at its next ses-
sion, the legislation necessary to carry
out the views contained in this Minute as
to the conbtrnction of the Pacific Rail-
way, and the compensation to be eivea to
British Columbia for delays in «uoh con-
struction."

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL — The words,
"for any delays which may take place in
the construction of the Pacific Railway"
mean the future.

Hon Mr. VIDAL— And yet the Hon.
Secretary of State said a few minutes ago
that the $750,000 was not for delays in
the construction of the main line.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it might suit bon.

f;entlemen todtaw different concIusiouB
rom the Order in Council than the
common acceptation of the English
language would warrant, and if they
did, he could not help it, but ha
thought it was scarcely fair to put any

|l I

such coiietruction on it as the language
dkl nut bear. The proof that such was >
not the coDstruction intended by the |
(iovernment was the fact that they were |
then iictually increasing the expense of |
and forcing on the surveys, expending ;
more money than at any time since the |
inception of the schem'?. The survey of '
the Intercolonial Kailway, which was only I
one sixth the length of the Pacific Rail- |
way, with large cities at either end and !
tl trough a settled district, eas^y of access, j
occupied five years, three years by Major j
Eobinson and two years by Mr. Sandford
Fleming. When it took such a length of {
time to survey the Intercolonial, hon. !
gentlemen could draw their own doduc- j
tions as to to the length of time it would
take to locate the PaciRo Railway ^hich {
from T.ake Nipissing to the other side of
the liocky Mountains bad scarcely one
hundred inhabitants along the line.
There was no possible parallel in the
length of time that it would take to locate
it as compared with the Intercolonial.

Hon. Mr. HOWLAN— At the time the
$7rjO,(X)0 was offered to British Columbia,
was there not a promise with it to con-
struct the road in fourteen ycurs ?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said tae Government
accepted the award of Lord Carnarvon,
but this was no reference to Lord Carnar-
von's award, but simply a substitution fot
it. It was not necessary to renew an
offer that was then in existence; they
(the Government) simply accepted it.

Hon. Mr. DICKEY called attention
again to the paragraph in the minute in
Council above referred to, "for any
delays which may take place," etc., and
sisked if that did not mean delays in the
future.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT again denied such
was the policy of the Government. lie
thought hon gentlemen ought not to be
so captious and sceptical; the language
was tben^, and he was sorry it did not suit
his hon. frient to draw proper deductions
from it It was another illustration of the
truth of the old saying, "Convince a man
against his will, and he's of the same
opinion still.'"

Hon. Mr. CORNWALL asked the hon.
Secretary of State to explain the fact thet
when the minute in Council was pub-
lished, and after the Government had
abandoned the construction of the Es-
(juimalt and Nanaimo Railway, during
that time and subsequently they bad sur-
veyors at work ou the line.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the hon. gentle-
man was aware that the Hon. Mr. Mac-

kenzie went over to Englan<l early in the
year, and in the winter when it was sup-
posed that this road was to be built sur-'
veyors were sent across the continent to
locate the line. When the Bill was
thrown out it was not thought advisable
to stop the survey as the work would be
valuable if the })eopl6 thought of building
the railway themselves. Would not his
hon. friend have been the first to con-
demn the Govrenmeut and say it was
adding insult to injury aft«r j
sending out surveyors to locate the
line, if thev had been stopped by
a telegram from Ottawa. Hon. gentle-
men were disnosed to find fault no matter
what action thc^ Government would take*
If they had declii^ed to expend the money \
they woiild meet with opposition, and if i
they ez] >ended it they met with opposition.
He would explain some of the difficulties '
the Government had to coatund against
in the surveys in British Columbia. He
bt^lieved the distance of the three routes
that had been surveyed from Edmonton i
to the coast averaged somewhere in the
neighbourhood of S(X) miles. The com- 1
puted distance by Yellow Head Pass aad i
Fort George to Bute Inlet was 800 miles, ;
but the route further north would shorten i
that distance. In the first thirty milei j
from tbe Pacific coast the rise was S,000
feet. That was where the difficulty came {
in, as any hon. gentleman experienced in j
railway matters would easily understand.

Hon. Mr. CORNWALL asked why the
Government did not adopt the route that I
was easy from the Rocky Mountains to j
Victoria.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said no doubt if the I
hon. gentleman had been appointed
Chief Engineer it would have been a great |
service to the Government, but unfortu-
nately for the country, no doubt, these
services ba( I not been offered. However. I
thoy had obtained what was considered j
the best engineering talent in the coun-
try, a ^'er.tleman who had the respect I
and confidence ot all )>artieB, I
and they believed thai gentleman
was (luite competent to be entrusted I
with this great work. The money which I
had been (^xi)8nded was under his direc-
tions, and he thought it was judiciously
laid out. From the returns from that [
gentlemf.n's office he found that the ex-
penditures year by year on the east side j
of tbe Rock Mountains were as follows in j
round numbers : —

To the 30th of June, 1S72 $194,000 1

" " " 1873 345,000

" " " 1S74 199,000

" " « 1875 290,000

I early in the
>n it was sup-
be built sur-
coDtinent to
the Bill was
ight advisable
jrk would be
ht of building
^ould not his
first to con-
id say it was
injury after
to locate the
stopped by
Hon. gentle-
auit no matter
t would take,
end the money
)08ition, and if
irith opposition,
the difficulties
>ntttnd against
Columbia. lie
te three routes
om Edmoutoii
le where in the
P8. The com-
Head Pass and
was 800 miles,
I woald shorten
it thirty miles
rise was 3,00* )
difficulty camp
ex])erienced in
ily understand,
asked why the
'• the route that
Y Mountains to

ao doubt if the
^en appo'nteil
ve beonagre.it
It, butunfortu
) doubt, these
ed. Howevei,
was considered
It in the coun-
.d the respect

all ))arties,
li gentleman i

be entrusted
I money which
der his direo-
fsa judiciously I
as from that
d that the ez-

the east side
e as follows in I

And for the half year ended 31st, 187'/,
$246,000, neaily double what had been
expended in any previous six months.
The amounts expended on the west side
of the Rocky Mountains during the same
periods were, in

1872 |20.j,000

1873 215,000

]874 111,000

1875 183,000

and to the 31st Docomber of 1875, $204,-
000. He thought this entirely bore
out the statement he had made a few !
minutes ago that during the time these
negotiations were going on with British
Columbia the Government were pushing
on the surveys more vigorously than ever
The total amount ex])ended in surveys
was $2,280,987. It had been urged yes-
terday by an hon. gentleman that the
Government were not building this road
in accordance with the terms of the Act,
which provided that it should be con-
structed by private companies. No
doubt such was the intention of the Act,
but the Government felt that if they
postponed all the work on the road until
the whole line was finally locbted, so
that it could be offered to private compa-
nies, very serious delays would necessarily
arise. The Government thought it better
to proceed with the grading of the road
at such points as the line had been
finally located, and thus give to the
country an earnest indication that they
were proceeding with this work with all
the despatch in their power. The sec-
tions between Fort William and Bed
Iliver were undertaken in order to open
up communication with the Northwest as
speedily as possible. They also put under
oontiact the grading of the Pembina
Branch and the line some seventy miles
east from Selku'k with the idea that when
tbe proper time came, they would be in a
position to place the road on the market
with the view of inviting capitalists to
undertake the work, and this part being
dene as cheaply as it was possible to do
it would be taken by the contractors as
part of the main line. That was another
proof that the Government were endeav-
ouring to push on this work as rapidly as
possible. In addition to this, tenders
were invited for the construction of the
telegraph lino wherever the railway had
baen located. The contracts that were
Hiven out under tenders were rapidly
pushed forward, and on the line from Fort
William to Selkirk, 41 4 miles, the amount
paid was $49,000, and from Selkirk to

Livingston, 206 miles, they tiad paid $56,-
GOO, From Livingston to Battle River, ho
understood, the line was in operation.

Hon. Mr. MlLLEli asked what the hon.
gentleman meant by the line being in
operation.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said the wires were
Strang.

Hon. Mr. MILLER- Then I am to uu..
derstand from that that portion of the
railway line is located.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it was the por-
tions located he had given .as from Fort
William to Lac des Mille Lac. Fi-om-
there to Hat Portage the line had not yet
been located. Several surveys h'id been
made, but the country was intersected with
water stretches, and it was found to be
very difficult to establish a good line.
From Cross Lake to .Selkirk, the line was
under contract. The whole distance from
Fort William to Selkirk was 414 miles:
it was assumed that it would not exceed-
that. From Selkirk west the next point
was Livingston, 226 miles, where the line
was located. From that point to Edmon-
ton, a di'jtanoe of 52(J miles, the line was
also located. From Edmonton to the
Pacific, about 8(X) miles, was where
the difficulty came in. Several lines
had been surveyed — one by Yellow
Head Pass. It was possible thi^t that
line might be selected, and if it were, the
distance from Edmonton to the entrance
of that Pass was 250 miles. From Yel-
low Head Pass, assuming that that part of
the line would be adopted, it would be
250 miles to Fort George, where another
serious difficulty arose. From there two
or three different lines had been sur-
veyed. The lower line to Btite Inlet, on
the Pacific Coast, was 300 miles. To
Gardner Inlet was the other route, of
which he was not preptai^d to give the

Hon. Mr. CARBALL— Then I am to
infer from what the hon. Secretary of
State has stated that the Government
have decidevt to abandon the Fraser River
route from Yellow Head Pass ?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT- 1 have stated that
from Edmonton difficulties still existed,
but from the information I have received,
the route from there by the Yellow Head
Pass would be selected, and beyond that
it was impossible to say what particular
route would be adopted.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— The hon. gentle-
man has mentioned in bis remarks re-
specting the distances three different
routes, one of which would probably be
selected, but in thj three routes be had

not named the Fraser River, and I there-
fore inferred that it had been aban-
doned.

Hon. Mr. vSCOTT said he regretted he
oould not give the hon gentlemen the
information, as the line was not yet lot-
tled upon beyond Yellow Hend Pass, but
there were ei^'ht different surveying par-
ties in that country, with an average
strength of from thirty to forty men, en
gaged in exploring for a line. The ex-
pense of the work already done through-
out, down to December Slst, 1875, was as
follows :—

Surveys $2,287,207

Construction 360,000

Telegraph account 170,000

$2,817,207

To this amount add the amount for steel
rails, $2,000,000 more, whioh would make
atotalof*4,817,207.

Hon. Mr. MILLER asked how the hon.
gentleman included the two millions for
rrils.

bon. Mr. SCOTT said because they were
purchased for the Pacitic Railway, and
part for the Intercolonial Railway.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL said there had
been only a fraction of the rails sent to
Thunder Bay.

Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— What por-
tion of the work is the two million dollars
charged to.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it was for tho
construction on the whole work. The
Government felt the responsibility that
hod been thrown upon tbeni, and they
proposed tn carry nut the work Just as
rapidly as the circumsi'jiceB of the coun-
try would warrant them doing, and no
faster. He did not think it was in the
interest of the !Q0minion that it should be
saddled with an enormous debt and be ren-
dered at th(! same time incapable of finish-
ing this work. Everybody must know that
the project entered into by the late Gov-
ernment in 1871-72 to construct this road
by a private company was simply im-
possible. It was quite evident that any
company formed at that time must have
broken down, as the scheme was utterly
impracticable. The 800 miles in British
Columbia could not be built for less than
$60,000 per mile. Was this House pre-
pared to pass a resolution of censure
upon the Government because they had
not taken out of the coffers of the country
$5,000,000 more than they already done
' towards the construction of this work.
He thought not. He did not think they

would place themselves in a false position
before the country ; they were
beyond the populur vote and above
the ordinary influences that affected the
lower Chamber. They had a higher and
more important duty, and it was for them
to say whether tho Government had nou
acted fairly and lionestly towards British
Columbia. He appealed to hon. gentle-
men to rise superior to political exigencies
and influences . He w«s quite aware of
the position which the Government held
in this House, but he had faith in the
good sense and sound judgment of hon.
gentlemen, that they would net for a
matter of mere party triumph let it go
forth to the country that the Senate had
censured the Government, because they
had not expended more than five millions
of dollars on the construction of the Pacific
Railway, as that would be the only deduc-
tion that would be drawn from the motion
of the hon. gentleman, if it were carried.

At the request of Hon. Mr. Scott,
Hon. Mr. Dickey read Ixis amendment.

Hon. Mr. SCOTl" said the natural con-
clusion to be drawn from the resolution
was, that they should not satisfy British
Columbia at the expense of the other
Provinces, but that the undivided energies
of the Government should be devoted ta
building the road into the Northwest.

Hon. Mr. CARKALL remarked that the
terms of union demanded that the road
should be commenced at both ends.

Hon. Mr. SCOIT said the resolution ac-
cused them of failure of duty, in not de-
veloping the Northwest.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— You have failed
everywhere.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said it was quite im-
possible to satisfy the hon. gentleman. He
thought $750,000 very fair compensation
for 15,000 people, and that they could
have made good use of the money. He
believed that British Columbia would be
the favoured portion of Canada before
thie century rolled over, but they could
not anticipate that period, nor lose sight
of their duty towards the rest of the Do-
minion.

Hon. Mr GIRARD rose to express his
concurrence in the amendmenv before the
House. He regretted that the great
scheme to put the Atlantic Ocean in com-
munication with the Pacific had not been
consummated. He did not blame the
Government for expending too much or
too little, but heblamed them for impro-
per expenditure. The first scheme was
for the oonatruotinn of the road by private
companies; with the aid of large subsidies

have failed

of land and money. ITe approved of that
•flbeioe ; and was of opinion that the water
stretch policy of the present Administra-
tion would result in throwing money into
the water. Some sections would profit by
it ; but tho loss to the whole Dominion
would be great. He was glad that the
Hon. Secretary of State had declared it to
be the intention of the present Govern-
ment to build the road, but he would ask
what had been cione up to the present
time, and if British Columbia had not
some reason to feel uneasy at the present
position of aif<tirs ? The Government bad
certainly not treated the Province
with due consideration, and they had just
grounds for complaint. From speeches
made bv members of the Government, »
abort time time ago, they were led to
suppose that the Government intended
to Kill the Pacific Railroad, hut so strong
was public opinion in its favour, that they
wisely relinquished this policy. The re-

C'lon of the Esquimalt and Nanaimo
way Act, in hia opinion, was a very
wise step. In this matter British Colum-
bia W3S not the only Province to be satis-
fied ; and that railway could not have con-
ferred much benefit on the rest of the
Dominion. He thought British Columbia
was perfectly right in refusing that
|750,OOQ, which he regarded as a bribe,
or, at all events, a compromise, in
order to keep the people quieL
The purpose of the Government was evi-
dent, it was to shut the mouth of British
Columbia. lie thought the objection
raised by the people of Manitoba would
have a good result in this Pacific Railway
question, but he was not in favour of ihd
Government entering into extravagant
expenditure at present. In constructing
the road, care should be taken that no
extra burdens were thrown upon the
people. In reading the speech of the
Premier at Saruia, he was struck with the
following passage . — "And I trust that
when this road is finally completed it will
be one that will conduce largely to the
public interests of Canada, to the interests
of the Empire, and to the transmission of
a portion of the Asiatic trade across our
own territory to take shipping a£ain in
our own waters to the old land. That
this will be the case I have no doubt."
He fully concurred in this view. He
advised the friends of British Columbia
not to press the construction of the road
at a'l hazards, lie hoped their dissatis-
faction was not deep rooted ; he would be
very sorry if the unwise policy of the Gov-
ernment was the cause of serious trouble.
3

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said the con-
struction of the road was not looked upon
as a party project at the time of its in-
ception ; it was advocated as strongly by
one party as the other, and was looked
upon by both as a great national work, not
only as regarded Canada, but the whole
Empire. The construction of the road was
considered as an essential feature of the
consolidation of Her Majesty's North
American Provinces, of the building up
of a large population on this continent, to
be governed by monarchical institutioua
in contrast to the institutions that pre-
vailed in the United States. Therefore,
great importance was attached to the
work, and no one had been or was now
disposed to view it from a party light.
He sympathised very much with bis
friends from British Columbia. They had
been left in a state of uncertainty and
perplexity, and were at a loss to know
what to believe in regard to the work.
The instructions given to Mr. Edgar were
of a character to alarm the people of the
Province. These iustruciions were the
first step taken by t'^e present Govern-
ment in doing anyt. ing in the Pacific
Railway matter, and they seemed to be
framed with a view to intimidating the
people of British Columbia, and to treat
them as persons having a sinister design
on the public purse. The following ex-
tract showed the spirit of Mr. Edgar's
instructions : —

" You will remember that the Dominion Is
bound to reach the HeuUoard of the Pacifio
only, not Victoria or Esquimau, and you
will convey an intimation to them that any
further extension beyond the waters of Bute
Inlet, or whatever other portion of the sea-
waters may be reached, may depend entirely
on the spirit shown by themselves In assent-
ing to a reasonable extdnsion of time, or a
m.odlflcatlon of the ter ms originally r-rreed to.
• • • • • •«

" Ycu win take special care not to admit In
any way that we are bound to build the rail- '
way to Esquimalt, or to any other place on
tUe Inland, and while you do not at all
threaten not to build there, to let them under-
stand that this Is wholly und purely a conces-
sion, and tliat its construction must be con-
tingent on a reasonable course being pursued
regarding the other parts of tlie scheme."

This was the language of intimidation.
What right had the Govornmens, if, as
they said before this paper was written,
they repudiated all liability or agreement
made by Parliament to construct the rail-
way on the Island of Vancouver, to say :
" If you behave yourselves we will buUd
your Island railway ?" Either that road
was a part of the Pacific Railway, or it
was not. The Government had taken
the ground that it was not, and from
their stand-poiat they bad no right to-

hold out this promise to the people ;
they had no right whatever to instruct
Mr. Edgar to make such an oflfer. Nor,
on the other hand, had they the right
to threaten that in the contingency of
their dissenting from tbo terms to be pro-
posed by Mr. Edgar the road on the
Island should not be built. When tho
nenotiationa commenced in that spirit
was it to be wondered iit that the people
of the Province beoame doubtful of the
intentions of the Governmert ? They
ought to have been met friinkly and reii-
sonably, and every asHurancc given them
that faith would be kept v'ith the Pro-
vince . If a courec of boiiosl lairness had
been pursued he ventured to say they
would have yielded to th< interests of the
country at large, and we would have not
experienced the pi'esent trouble. But all
through these negotiations there iras an
evident attempt to drive them into unde-
iiaed new terms. The several Minutes ot
Council seemed to have been framed in
the same spirit as Mr. Edgar's instruc-
tions, as would be seen from the following
passage :

" The Coniinltteo must further obHcrve that
the tenor of tlie reprenentatloiiN now under
eonKldenvtlon would seem to Indicate that the
object of the legislature of BrltlHh Columbia
Is leKH to secure the completlor. of the work as
a national undertaking In su(h a way and on
such terms ns nuiy bent coniluco to the wel-
fare of the whole community, than to enforce
the Immodlate and continued expenditure
■within tliclrown Province, at whatever cost to
Canada, of many millions of money, for
which they cannot pretend to have given an
equivalent."

It was a most unwise policy to taunt
the people of a small Province in this
manner; to accuse them in a State paper
of entertaining a sinister desire, not for
the construction of the road aa a great
national work in which all the Dominion
was interested in, but to secure at any
'hazard to the country the expenditure of
a large amount of money among them-
selves. He was persuaded that this was
doing a great injustice to our fellow sub-
jects in British Columbia, and certainly
nothing could be further from the spirit
which ought to characterize a State pa-
per than to put forward sucli an accusa-
tion against a whole Province
as had been done- by the Gov-
«rnment in this Minute of Council.
It was perfectly clear that British Colum-
bia had just right to complain of the
course pursued towards tliem in the in-
structions sent over, the Minutes of
Council, and the language used by the
Government irrespective of the question
of the conBtruction of the road altogether.

Whether sufficient or insufficient progress
had been made in the construction of the
road, they had a great right to come to
this House and complain of the treatment
they had received, of the language that
had been used towards them, and the
motives attributed to them. Tliis debate
had been adjourned three or four timos
at the instance of the Qovernment until
papers that had been asked for should be
laid on the table, but when these papers
came,and we had them on the table of the
House, there was nothing in them that
had urA already appeared io the publio
newspapers days ago. There was no in-
formation in them that members did not
already possess, except the (ixpensos of
tlie telegraph line. He was glad to
hear that the road to Fort Edmonton
had been located, but the progress
made in the actual work of construc-
tion was represented by two very small
sums indeed. He found no fault with
the amount expended in the surveys ; he
preBumi:d that the Government were
guided by the Engineer in Chief,
and no doubt the expenditures wero
thought necessary by that gentle-
mail, who he believed to bo a very
high authority in such matters. There was
no intention on the part of the members
of this House to press the Government to
go on with the construction of the road
without the most thorough and complete
surveys. The very best possible line should
undoubtedly first be definitely ascer-
tained. They understood from the Hon.
Secretary of State that the line had been
located from Fort William to Sheban-
dowan, from Cross Lake to Red River,
from Red River to Fort Pelly, and from
Fort Pelly to Fort Edmonton, a strotch of
801 miles ready for work, yet the amount,
expended on the construction was only
$19U,00().
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—$360,000.
Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL, continuing— Well
say $360,000 ; but I was taking the figures
in the return. That very evidence
did not show that the efforts to push on
this work were very energetic, and
tended to increase the distrust of the
British Columbians in the good faith of
the (rovernment and in the pledge of the
Dominion, that the great railway should
be pushed on as rapidly as the general
circumstances of the Dominion would
admit. There had been a considerable
expenditure on the telegraph line ; but
was not the Secretary of State mistaken in
saying that the ti-legraph line was com-
pleted from Fort Pelly to Fort Edmonton,

.11

iMoauBe the digtanoe vraM ')20 miles and
the Bura paid was only (56,(X)(). 'I'be
average cohI of constructing tho telegraph
line would be $50() a mile, and the whole
expenditura up till now wiis only t41,0(J0,
BO that there could not be an much of the
line constructed as the Hon. Secretary of
State had stated, or the figures given in
tho returns on the taHle were incoirect or
represented a part state of facts.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— I said from Livinsts

in the intentions of the Government, and
with them doubted whether vigorous ef-
forts were being put forth to keop the
p'eJge of the Dominion, to oonfltriiot
the great national highway to the Pacitio,
aa rapidly or, in the words of the amend-
ment, the tinancial necessities of the
country would admit. He di>claimed boing
actuated by pirty spirit, on behalf of thoso
with whom he had the honour to act and
for himwelf. Their only desire wa^ to see

ton to Edmonton the telegraph was fin- ibat g<)od faith was kept with British

>h line ; but
I mistaken in

nished; from Selkirk to Livingston, I men
tioned that $50,600 had been paid on
account of progress, and the line from
Livingston to B<tttle River was in oper-
ation.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— 1-Yom Fort
William to Edmonton was some twelve
hundred miles and the total amount ex
pended on telegraph account was $170,-
300, BO that there must have been some
mistake in the hon. gentleman's state-
ment. The House was entitled to demand
information, but they could not get it
cither from the papers before the House
or from the Secretary of State.

Hon Mr. SCOTT said the paper from
which he had read was from Mr. Fleming's
own band. The telegraph had been
erected from Livingston to Battle River a
distance of 354 miles, and it was in opera-
tion some months ago.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said then this did
not correspond with the returns before
the House. He was glad his hon. friend
from Amherst had changed the resolution
80 as to include tho whole Pacific Rail-
way as well as the portion in British Col-
umbia within the scope of it. The North-
west had as much ground for complaint
aa that Province, and the delay in open-
ing up the fertile country of that terri-
tory was one of the serious charges to be
laid at the door of the Government. That
portion of the country was one in which
the Dominion was most deeply and im-
mediately concerned. It was of thj first
importance that it should be opened up
as speedily as possibh; so as to encourage
the rapid settlement of the fertile holt,
and he was gla'^ to see that his hon. friend
from Manitoba had taken part with his
friends from British Coluajb-a in com-
plaining of the course which was being
pursued by the Government with refer
ence to the whole subject. The amend-
ment gave expression to the views which
were entertamed by many members of
the House who believe that British Colum-
bia had not been fairly treated and had
ground for the dietrust which they felt

Columbia, and that this great national
work, which they considered vital to the
life and increase of tho Dominion, and to
the perpetuation of British institutiona
on this Continent, should be i)rooec(lod
with as rapidly as is consistent with the
securing of the best practicable line, and
with the financial roijuirements of the '
Dominion.

Hon. Mr. McCLE LAN said, that in what-
ever way the amendments affected the '
question in its political or party aspects —
he did not consider the final vote in this
Chamber so important as a free expres-
sion of opinion by hon. members on the
abstract question. The resolution of the
hon. member from British Columbia re-
ferred to a matter of vast importance to
the Canadian people, in all sections of the '
Dominion ; and after adverting to his
speech in iH71, when the resolution
passed which led to the union of British
Columbia, involving the construction of
this railway within a speoifiod period of
time, and considering the course of events
since, he (Mr. McClelan), at least, could
congratulate himself on having treated
the question consistently, and, as he be-
lieved, in a way which was approved of
by the country. British Columbia, it
must be conceded, was admitted on bettor
terms than any other Province of this
Con fedation - better as to the number of
their representatives, and their financial
gains, aiud apart altogether from the con-
struction of this great work, which traversea
the whole Continent. The hon. gentleman
(Mr. Catnpbell) has spoken of the necessity
of Keeping good f»ith with the people, and
of dealing frankly with the question ; but,
it must be conceded that, if the fulfilment
of such a compact involves ruin and dis- '-
aster to the Dominion, it would be "more:
honoured ir. the breach than in the per-
formance." The breach of good faith,
however, and the want of frankaesj was'
more apparent at the outset than at any-
subsequent periMl. The impossible con-
ditions of two and ten years for the start-
ing and completion of the gigantio work,

Jl:

should riuver have been plaoad iu the
terma of ur.ioD< And if tuey bad not
been bo stated then, the hon. gentlemen
who BO ably represent tbut Western Meo-
tion would not be complaining of the
fiulure to Bpend auflioient money in their
immediate looality ; but they would treat
the question as alone it ought to be treat-
ed, from a broad Canadian stand-point.
In short, the people of that Province are
•8 much inturested in protecting the
credit and limiting the taxation of Canuda
as are the peonle of the larger Provinoeb
fop, if financial burthens of a depressing
nature be brought upon the poUtical sys-
tem, the out-lying portions — the ex-
tremities — will be more readily affected
than larger and more populous centres.
He (Mr. McC.) was ^\&d tu notice tbut
hon. members on ail sides were now will-
ing to look on this railway as a work of
the futiire,without any regard to the men-
tion of a limit of time, and that the sec-
tion in the law, providing that no increas-
ed burthens shall be imposed on the
people as a consequence, haa been ao-
oepted and agreed on. This view, in fact,
was expreHsed and thoroughly underr, ( uod
by tbe late Sir Geo. Car tier and hu sup-
porters in tbe Commons, when the com-
pact was entered into, and this vva« con-
curred in by the delegate then present,
sinee lieutenant Governor of British
Columbia, 'ihe question then arises, are
the present Qovernment proceeding with
the work as rapidly as the financial oondi'
tion of the country admits 7 He (Mr.
McC.) was more disposed to censure the
Grovernment for pt ;>c 'edinj? too rapidly
than too slowly, n'ld vtV.en the Govern-
ment, acceding ia th» viahesof Lord Car-
narvon, undertook t -/rovide for the con-
gtructiou of a t.'^jltviv/ from Esquimalt to
Nanaimo, involving an expenditure of up-
wards of |2,(XX),(XX) on Vancouver Isknd,
work in no way a part of tbe
lacific Railway, they evidently under-
took to do somewhat tco mucb. This
local work at present was entirely unne-
cessary, could only be made available
from tbe main land by a further expendi-
ture of an enormous sum of money, and
while it might add to the value of the
city of Victoria and its vicinity, it would
not serve tbe interests of the more scat-
tered portion of the people of the Prov-
ince. The reference to Lord Carnarvon,
by which the Government of this country
became complicated with this undertak-
ing, was unfortunate, and the thanks of
the country are due to tbe Senate for
refusing to sanction the Bill of last ses-

sion, and he hoped the Minutes of Coun*
cil bv the late Administration, providing-
for this work and the making of Ksqui-
malt tbe terminus of thePat-itio Railway,,
would have no influence on future aotic .
The problem was sutBciently oomplicatev
and difficult of solution without this addi-
tional burthen, which certainly could
never have bee" /'Onsidored a tine qui non
in arrant' ' <ne terms of union. He
(Mr. V , entertained tbe opinion that
in <' .<ging for the admission of British
..umtiathe Imperial Government should
have been urged to give subBtantial aid
towards tbe Pacific Railway. It u well
known that the location of the Intercol-
onial Road— not in the interests of the
Provinces or where it will be of any great
commercial importance — was in order to
satisfy Imperial notions of a military or
defensive nature, and for this compara-
tively trifling work, we received the guar-
antee of the British government ; and it
is not unreasonable to suppose that, to
be relieved of tbe Qovernment of Ck)lum-
bia— consolidate tbe whole of British
America-~and chiefly to secure a great
trans-continental highway, invaluable in
a stratagetio point of view, were results of
such moment to Great Britaui as to insure
for their r( alization material aid. Such,
however, was not secured, and Canada is
now bound to proceed accordiag as the
ciroumatanoes of the country may admit.
He (Mr. McC.) hoped thai: we would
profit by the experience of the United
States — where Buch a work was only ven-
tured on when the republic contained over
thirty millions of peopla — with an
annual influx of nearly half a million of
immigrants, and with twcmty or thirty
large cities scattered along the line. Even
this road — tlie Union Pacific— has failed
to be profitable as an inveiitment, and we
all know bow disastrously has resulted the
attempt to construct the Northern Pacific,
which, in some respects, has very much
more to strengthen and sustain it than
our Canadian Pacific can be expected to
have for a long time to come, as a through
line of communication. Recent improve-
ments in tbe great chaiauels of trade do
not give much encouragement to hope
for much overland traffic in eastern pro-
ducts; but while keeping constantly in
view the ultimate completion of the work,
its construction may^ and should be, so
utilized so as to facilitate the peopling of
the extensive valley« of the ISortliwest —
the Red River, the Saskachewan, and
others— so fertile &a to be capable, accord-
ing to Professor Hyndc, who years ago

,ii3

carefully explored the country, to ■UBtnin
forty millioiiii of people. The policy now
being pursued of construoting the Pem-
bina and Fort Garry- road, and tbonce
easterly towards Lake Superior, was a
correct one. and if the proposed outlay on
tlpo Oeni7(ian Bay leotioni of doubtful od-
vanugti, could be deferred, and applied to
hasten the extension into more valuable
regions, it would possibly be more advan
tagenua. In proceeding with the Pacific
Itailwayas fast as possible, commensurate
with the resources of the country, it will
be imi>OBsibIe to forget wholly the other
works of equal utility, and which the
Qovernment are equally in honour bound
to construct — and one of these is the
Baie de Verte Canal. (Hear, hear, by
Hon. Mr. Dickey.)

Hon. y.r. MACPHERS0:T— Was that
one of the articles of confederation 7

Hon. Mr. MoCLELAN said it was so
completely understood and agreed on by
the delegates, that it waa not deemed ne-
cessary to place it on paper.

Hon- M!r. MaoPHERSON-lTiat canal
was only like any other public work of
the Dominion.

Hon. Mr. MoCLELAN— Not altogether.
The Qovemment were in honour bound to
build it before even the purchase of the
North- West was made. But like the
Pacific Railway, it has suffered some
delay, though not from the same cause.
It cannot, however, be ignored wholly, if
the chief object of the Confederation—
the promotion of a free exchange of Pro-
vincial products— be fully realized. Re-
verting to the Georgian Bay Branch and
the abondonment of the contract by the
mutual consent of Mr. Foster and the
Government, he felicitated the Adminis-
tration on the opportunity now afforded
of delaying for some years the further
prosecution of this work — and relieved
also from all embarrassments ai to the
Vancouver Island expenditure, greater
attention can be paid to the central sec-
tions, and the vigorous though careful
explorations of the Rooky Mountains and
the Pacific slope with a view of determm-
ing the very best route through that most
difficult section of country, where no less
than three lines Iiave already beencur-
■orily examined, and it may be found
that still another and more feasible route
may yet be secured. In determining the
best and cheapest location for a railway
of this extent, involving an ultimate ex-
penditure of $150,000,000, and entailing
an annual outlay of $8,000,000 in the
running expenses, the utmost, care should

be exercised. The experipuce of the late
Government should be a warning for the
futurA^ and the prophetic utterances in
1871 of the hon. gentleman now Minister
of Agriculture, when he said that like
the projectors of the Tower of Babel, the
Government would be scattered, would
continue to apply to successive Adminis-
trations, if the utmost prudence and care
be not exercised. He (Mr. McClelAn) en<
tertalned a favourable opinion of tho
climate and renoarces of Britiah
Columbia, and had recently listen*
ed with interest to the description
of that Province by a gentlerann con-
nected with the Geological Survey, who
accounted for tha mildness of the climate
by thoactionof the tidal currents on the
coast. This gentleman's perfect acijuain-
tance with all classes of the people theria
enabled him to say too that they were
truly Canadian in feeling and sympathy
and excepting a very few interested
grumbbrs there were no indications of
disloyalty whenever, and hci was surprised,
in 1871 as well as on other occasions, to
hear of secessionist tendencies in that
Province.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL did not thijok
any ouo bad expressed that view.

Hon. Mr. McCLELAN said secession
had been mentioned bs a probability, and
that like Alaska, Columbia might pass
into the hands c<f our Republican neigh-
bours ; but he hoped there was no loun-
dation for that stktement — in short, he
felt that when such aspersions were made
the people there suffered, from mia-
repres■'^ntation. They surely would not
have it understood that their loyalty wai
to be measured by pecuniary consider-
ationB,and if they did feeliiVKS of dlslo/alty
would not. be engendered when they ha4
received from Canada an amount equal to
$100 for each inhabitant in excess oi
revenue furnished. In conclusion, he
would say th>ii he felt it his duty tQ
support the Government in proceeding
Trith this great work in the interests of
the Canadian pec;>'3 and with a rorreoi
appreciation of the ..Tieaus aai resources
of the country.

Hon. Mr. VIDAL said he had listened
with great regret to the unjust and un-
necessary charge of paitizauship pre-
ferred against so many members of thia
House by the Hon. Secretary of State .
Nothing in the conduct of the members
justified the assertion t^at they were ac-
tuated by ijnproper or unworthy motiveii.

Hon. Mr. SCOTf — I made no charge.

ill

Hod. Mr. VIDAL said be took down the
words of the hon. gentlemaD at the time,
and he said they were "putting party first
and the country afterwards." He did
, not suppose that anything he would say
would remove the hon. member's preju-
dices, and be would not have referred to
this charge were it not that the hon.
member from Victoria hud also made a
similar observatios, although not in so
offensive a mancer. That gentleman,
carried away by his anxiety to promote
Vie interests of his own Province, and
thinking they might be endangered by
our action, had said we sacrificed British
Columbia to party spirit in voting against
,the Esquimalt llailway. He repndiated
that allegation, not only for himself but
other members, for no one in giving the
vote to which tbehon. member referred,
vras influenced by the leabt desire to sac-
rifice British Columbia or to jeopardise
her interests. They claimed on the con-
trary to be her best friends, and so voted,
because they felt that if the Esquimalt
dc l^auaimo K&Uway was constructed it
would unquestionably postpone the con-
necting of British Columbia with the
Provinces of the east, and it certainly was
not needed for local trafiic. He was glad
this subject had been introduced in this
House, where its diiiiculties could be
more satisfactorily dealt with than by ap-
peal to England. He thought it was a
mistake on the part of British Columbia
to carry their grievance in the first place
to the foot of the throne. Coercion on
the part oi the Imperial Government
would neither be attempted nor submitted
to on a question of this kind ; it should
laa left to the good sense and honourable
feeling which would undoubtedly charac-
terize the Parliament of Canada. The
amendment which had been introduced
by Senator Dickeyi and which be inteu*!-
ed to support, showed tbat they did
not approve the strong language
of the original motion, or wish
this question to assume a party com-
plexion. He had read the returns brought
down very carefully, and be thought
tharo was suffioisnt ground for British
Columbia assuming the position she did.
The Minute in Council said : —

"The i)ropoHPtt llnllwny from Estiulmalt to
Kanalino Uw^h not form a portion ol" tlie Crnur
dlan I'liolllc liiiUwuy, iih defined by the Act:
It waslntondod tobiMioHt loeal lntere.st«, and
was proposed as compensation for the dlsnp-
iwlnunent experienced by the unavoidable
delay In eonstructlng the railway acroNs the
^aopiinent."

• Isow what was implied by the idea of
ojmi)enBation ? Was it not an acknow-

ledgement that some wrong had bet'n done
and it was to make reparation or atone-
ment therefor .

Hon Mr. SCOTT— The wrong was done
by our predecessors.

Hon, Mr. VIDAL— Do«s the hon. gentle*
man mean to say that they agreed to
construct the Esquimalt and Nanaimo
Railway as compensation for the neglect
of the trans-continental road ?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— If there was disap-
pointment it arose from the policy of the
late Government.

Hon. Mr. VIDAL said he was not talk-
ing about the Eailway policy of either
Government, but endeavouring to estab-
lish iMs narticular point, that if no
wrong had "been done, there was no neces-
sity for compensatior. Further down
the same Minute proceeded to say : —

" It would seem reasonable that the people
of British Columbia should construot tnfs
work themselves, or (If they think other local
pub Ic works more advantageous) should. In
lieu of this, themselves undertake such other
looal public works, and that the compen-
sation to be given them by Canada for any
delays which viau take place In the construc-
tion of the I'aclfle Riillwny, should be In tho
form of a cash bonus."

When it was first charged that these
terms applied to future delays, the t*eore-
tary of State denied that it was the real
meaning of the Minute, and it was not
until the :jattei wai pressed closely that
it was acknowledged to mean compensa-
sation for delay in the construction of the
Pacific Railway. That doccument might
be laid before any English scholar and it
would be almost impossible for him to
attach any other meaning to the words
than the interpretation placed upon
them b^'tue Province, which wai that its
acceptance of the proposal mi^'ht defer
tbi» construction of the load for an
indefinite period, and under such circum-
stances British Columbia was pe' »otly
justified in refusing the bribe ' oncur
in the delay. The charge mau^ ogainst
British Columbia that she only desired
the ezpendi.^.ure of money within her
own borders was not fair ; the people bad
a right to expect thav *.hp toims of union
should be honestly carried out, as speed-
ily as possible, and this expectation was
justified ly public opinion everywhere.
Mr. Dorion, at the general election 'n 1874,
asserted that the policy of the Government}
with respect to the Pacific Railway would
bo very much the same aa that of their
predecessors. This was distinctly and
oleariy stated, and went over the country
as an assurance that ttiis gr«'«t
undertaking would be honestly ad-

N... ii.--. -J

opted and energetically carried
out. When the Premier broached the
Bcheme of utilizing the water stretches in
bis speech at Sarnia, the impression code
on the minds of his he'i'ers was that he
proposed to use the waters of the La!^es
Huron and Superior, and also those lying
between those lakes and the Rooky Moun-
tains ; but it was not then understood to
be antagonistic to a future all-rail line.
Under the subsequent development of
that policf, such as the proposed con-
struction of the Georgian Bay branch and
the Thunder Bay Road, it was not to be
wondered at that the iieople of British
Columbia did not give the Govern-
ment credit for any sincere intention
of carrying out the work on the main
line, especially where the obligations to
do so were spoken of as " appalling," and
their fulfilment as an impossibility. That
they were serious no one denied, but they
did not cause the late Government to
stand aghast, for they felt that the com-
pletion of the work was neoeasary to the
▼ery existence of the Dominion, and that
its abandonoient would speedily ruin our
prospects. This question has been too
much regarded as one afieoting the Pro-
vince of British Columbia and the disap-
pointed people of that country alone { he
regarded it as equally affecting the Do-
minion as m whoio, for this road is a na-
tional necessity, and many thousands of
our people ware disappointed, as »eU as
thci ptople of BrlMfih Cclumyp., that tl'e
rocu w^s not pushed fcrward. Nobody
had found fault with the expenditures
Vrhich the Government had made in sui-
veye ; everybody approved of it } every-
ba<i/ knew and felt that it was a most im-
portsnt thing that the country should be
thoroughly explored for the best route,
and the money was well expended in
seeking to ascertain the shortest aod
cheai)«Bt line to the FaciSc coast. If the
Government btvd assumed the proper at-
titude towards British Columbia, ana an-
nounced their intention to commence
oonsti-uction as soon as tbe line could be
located, no one could havo found fault.
If they had said " V 'e are doing our beat
to construct this railway at the earliest
possible moment, and you know the
importance of getting the best route,
Although we have so many en,
neers and surveying ptirti^s at wor
we have not been able to find out a pro-
per location yet, but as soon aa we do the
road will be commensed." Had tbe Gov-
ernment taken thf^t position, showiag
that it was part of their policy to build

1^-
>rk,

the road, and that they were only delay-
ing it until they found a good route^
British Columbia would havo recogniaed
too fully the good feeling of the Dominion
towards them to find fault with the Gov-
ernment for not doing what it was im-
possible to accomplish. But there were
avowed intentions and attempts to ex-
pend millions of dollars on branch lin<3s
wh'oh should have been expended on iha
main line. Why not take tbe monejr
proposed to be expended on the Eaqui-
malt and Nanaimo Railway and expend it
upon the road going e&at from the Pacific
coast; that would have shown that the
Government recognized the rights of
British Columbia and ware sincere in
their endeavour to carr^r out the work.
Again, there was an attempt to spend
millions of dollars on the Georgian Bay
Branch, which under no circumstances
could form a part of the main line. - More
recently there was the proposal to con-
struct a railway connectmg Sed Rivtir
with Thunder Bay, Lake Superior. Of the
western section of this line he cordially
approved, as it would form part of the
main line itself from Red River eastward
to Rat Fottaiie, and he was glad to learn
it was under contract ; but of the east«ra
section ha could not approve-, particularly
that part now under contract from Lac des
Mille Lacs to Prince Arthur's Landing,
which was not and could not form a por-
tion of tbe main line without diverging
forty tt fifty miles outof the proposed route
of the Pacific Railway. There was uo
gooil r^.*ion for taking that route to go to
Red Rivei . As a matter of fact the main
P!«.ciifio liii.i Si'ut pi^sa Itetween Like
Nc.'jigcr. and Lake Superior, and from
th6:!ce westward to Rat Portage and on to
Revl Riyer. That was the line of the Paoifio
Railway, as defined in tae Engineer's
report ; but what reason there was to start
from l.'hunder Bay westward) and thus
necessitate the construction of sixty-four
miles additional railway, he could dog
imagine. Nepigon Bay was as good a
harbour as Thunder Bay, and vessels
could, with a suggested improvement of
the Nepigon River, come up to the main
line of the Pacific Railway. It was claimed
that Thunder Bay was opened eight days
earlier in the spring than Nepigon Bay,
bu i would it be wise to incur the addition-
al expense of the construction and per-
pe.ual maintenance of sixty four miles of
railway for the sake of eight days of oAvis
gation. But they did not secure this
amall advantage by going to Thunder
Bay, as tbe robd la to commence ten miles

4»

I *-•

I •■m>

from Prince Arthur's Landing on the
Kaministiquia Hirer, and the ice did not
clear from that river any earlier than
from Nepigon Bay. Tie .'nentioned these
facts to show that there were grounds for
the belief which prevailed in the minds of
many, that it was not the intention of the
Chjvemment to go on with the oarly con-
Btruction of the through rail line. Had
the Government assumed a different atti-
tude towards this work ; had they ener-
getically taken up the scheme of the
railway as left by their predecessors — not
bound, of coursp, to adopt all its details —
difficulties whicn they ^el to be so over-
whelming would not have presented
themselves. A transcontinental railwajr
was not a new and questionable experi-
ment, success in such an enterprise
having (Iready been achieved in the
United Si^ates ; but an attempt was made
to show that it could not be a commercial
Si <oesB, and that it would not attract
any amount of trade from China
and the East. It bad been stated
in this House that the trade on the Union
Pacific from the East Indies, China, and
Japan, was insignfiicant ; but be held in
his band a statement taken from « news-
paper, and not authoritative, but which
oltiimed to have been compiled from
official blue books, showing that Van trade
between these countries and Europe
amounted to over seven hundred millions
of dollars in value. The Canadian Pacific
Edilway would shorten the route by one
thousand miles, and the cooler climate of
the country through which it ran made it
more desirable for the transport of many
articles of this eastern trade than the
warmer climate on the Union Pacific. He
believed if the Pacific Railway were con-
structed it would prove to be a commercial
as well as a rational success. If the
Government had gone into the English
market full of confidence in the desirable-
ness and ultimate success or the great
work, and impressed upon the minds of
the English people the importance of this
road to the empire, both trom a military
And commercial point of view, they would
hava enlisted the sympathy and aid of the
Britirh Government in the' enterprise ; it
would have been approved and retoni
mmded by them, nnd they would ' av-^j
h:*d no difficulty with the miliiov^u of
capital in Great Britain always swvl;:?,* in-
vestment in gettina plenty cf mouey to
build the road. Cana<ia unaided could not
be expected to build thia road out ot her
own resources, and the plan of the late
Government w&b to have English capital

invested in it as the only way in which the
railway could bo built within a reasonable
time. British Columbia had a perfect
right to bring her complaints to the Par-
liament of Canada, and he believed there
was a majority of both Uouses who.
believing their claims to be good, would
do all that lay in their power to secure
redress. F? was sure the House woulcl
generously grant their rights and endea-
vour to stay the expenditure of money on
unnecessary Nvorks which should go to-
wards the C(. isl action of the great
through 11: '* ;* ^ was promised when
British Ci\n--srt<i:., .tered Confedera-
tion.

Hon, Mr. KEES^-R said as to the obliga-
tion of Canada to build the Pacific Rul-
way as soon as they could without greatly
increasing the taxation of the country, he
thought there weio scarcely two opinions
lit the present day. The obligation had
been entered into, and he had no doubt
itwoulibe faithfully fulfilled no matter
what Government was in power. But it
appeared to him that the resolution was
really asking more. The effect of that
resolution, if it were adopted, would be to
urge upon the Government to unduly
prosecute this work and involve the
country in a larger amount of expense,
and have the line made so he ''ilv without
due regard to the adonti ' • ■ u tLo best
route, that this Boi'Sf wUo.ii i pause
before adop'ing a motin tr. «'. A'.,>~i<i com-
mit the Government ai. ' ii catry to
such a position. The first >>' •'< re^i as
follows :—

"That this House fully recognizee „i >3 obli-
gation to secure the construction o'' the Cana*
alun Pacific Railway with the u'jioat speed
compatible with a due regard to the other
financial requirements of the '.'omlulon, ant}
wlthor.t unduly Increasing **io rate of taxa-
tion."

80 far he would support the resolution,
but when it goes on to say : —

"And regretH
Government in connect'.'
has not met the cxpectivt
BrltlHl.. Columbia noi ' :
facilitate the dovelopm; n

hat the cciirse adopted by the
wlUi tills matter

i'f the people of
bv9n Kuch as to
.'■'C' Ncr-West,"

ale J to i^resB
.71 ch too much

It Btr\ick him as being c
upon the Government
haste, and in carrying it out with too much
hiiu ^hele might be less speed. He be*
iie^rou \itat year when the vote had been
ta! ^\ a&t killed the Esquimalt and
H^uaicxo Bill it relieved the Government
I from a very heavy responsibility, and left
them iu a very much better position be-
foic the country. Ferha[is that was not
the intention of the members who voted
against the Bill, but no doubt it had that

/
effect. He did not happen to be in the
House at the time, but if he had been he
would have added one more to the major-
ity against the Bill. He thought in large
questions of State this House should rise
above mere party feeling and party obli-
gations, in order to do what they believed
Tvas for the greatest benefit of the coun-
try. He feared if this resolution was
carried it would not be in the interests of
the Dominion, and he believed it ex-
pressed more than the country were
willing to sustain. He considered that
the Government were doing all the coun-
try desired them to do with regard to
the coDstruction of this road — more than
they could aSbrd to do in the proBsed
circumstances of the Dominion. One
hon. gentleman sugge-ted that the work
could be commenced at both ends, but
the weatorn end of the line had
not yet been determined. Surely it
was not desirable under these circum-
stances that the country be involved in
the expenditure of millions and millions
of dollars that might utterly ruin the
credit of Canada without knowing whether
the road were really practicable. He
thought it would be only folly on the part
of any Government, no matter what their
obligations might be, to proceed so hastily.
If Parliament pledged itselt to the con-
struction of this road in ten years, it was
only on the understanding that it could
be done in that time without unduly
pressing upon the resources of the coun-
try. During the time the Bill was before
Parliament there was a representative
here from British Columbia, the Lieut.-
•Gov . of thut Province — duly delegated by
that Province, and be urged upon the
members of this House — he spoke from
personal knowledge of the facts — by all
means to pass the Bill, to never mind the
ton years' limit, it was not obligatory, an
it was only intended to express some
definite time, to which they wtre not
boond. Inasmuch as a company or firm
are bound by the act of their agent, so he
considered the Government of « country
were also bound by the acts of their
agent. He never felt that Canada was
bound to go further than the conditions
embodied in the resolutions passed at
that time by the House of Commons, and
by the interpretation of the Act as given
by Lieutenant-Governor Trutoh. Any
one having the slightest conception of the
diiBoulties of the route must have known
from the very inception of the scheme
that there would be no po8sibilii.y of locat-
ing that road in loss than five years.

Hon. MnCARRALL said Mr. Trutcli iim.
ply came over here to turn up some of the
archives of the country, and he had no
authority to give the assurance he did by
the Government of British Columbia.

Hon. Mr. EEESOIl said he took it that
when the accredited agent of a country
appeared in another, his utterance^,
made in an official capacity, were bindiag
on the country which he represented.
He did not think, from the statements of
the representatives of British Columbia
themselves, that they desired the Govern-
ment of Canada to be placed in such a
position as to damage their credit at home
and abroad ; they did noSdesire that the
expenditure on this railway should be
more rapid than the country could reason-
ably afford. Taking that view of the case
he thought they had no reason to com-
plain of the expenditures of the Govern;
ment up to the present time. He di 1 not
rely solely upou the statements of the
Government alone, because they coul4
not have had actual practical observation
of the work that had been going on that
the engineers had, and it was no seorep
that the Chief Engineer had stated un-
hesitatingly that the worK: was being car-
ried on with the utmost care and vigilanoe,
and as rapidly as it was possible to do it
without incurring a great deal of useless
and unnecessary expenditure. It would
not be a very great while until the road
was located in British Columbia, but uiitu
that line would be loouted in the beat
possible place the contract should not
be let. Coming farther this way,
between Thunder Bay and Bed Biver »
great deal had been said about the water
stretches. They had several water
stretches that were very valuable, and it
was only natural when the Premier was
first installed an officer that he should
look round to see whether some of the
appalling expenses and responsibilitjT
could not be saved or averted for a little
time by utilizing the water stretches and
connecting them with railway sections
which would afterwards forci portions of
the main line. It was conton led that the
section from Thunder Bay should not
have been constructed ; that it should
have been started from Nepigon Bay. it
was well known that the neighbourhood
of Nepigon Bay both east and west wak
an exceedingly rocky country, with im-
mense engineering difBculties that could
not be overcome without enormous ex-
penditure of money ; it was even yet
doubtful whether a route would be
secured between Lake Nepi{;on and Laki

II'

)^i

Superior thpt the Oovernmcnt would be
warranted in adopting, so that it might
yet be possible that they would have to
go north of Lake Nepigon. The section
from Thunder Bay to Bed Biver was the
most important point at present ; beyond
that to the Rocky Mountains there would
be very little difiSculty ; miles of track
could be laid in a single day. He consid-
ered tbat to undertake to build the road
^ t present from Lake Nipiasing east over
•veil hundred miles of barren country
terly unsettled was unnecessary, and it
./ould entail an enormous expenditure of
money. He thought if the Government
should abandomtbe Georgian Bay Branch
altogether an<r take time to build that
portion north of Lakes Huron and
Suijerior ; if they would so far modify
their plans they would receive the thanks
of tho country. The Georgian Bay Branch
ought to be delayed at all events until it
rras determined tbat the portion of the
railway south of Luke Nepigon could bo
constracted, a fact which he very much
doubted at present. He looked forward
to the time, though it might not be in his
day, when the through line would be in
operation from the Atlantic to the Facifio,
but in the meantime he thought they
should be content with a road from Thun-
der Bay that would o])en up communica-
tion to the Northwest, and thus bring
into re^.-^h for settlement the vast and
fertile plains of the Bed Biver and Sas-
katchewan. That worK was now being
performed as rapidly as possible, so that
m a very few years we would have a con-
tinuous line of railway from Thunder Bay
to the Bocky Mountains. So much of
the work having been completed, we
could gradually go on until the continent
is spanned from ocean to ocean, bringing
with it increased ^^rosperity, and not ruin,
upon our fair Dominiou.

Hon. Mr. WAHK said he bad hoped
that this resolution, like the two that
had preceded it, would have been with-
drawn, as a majority of the House would
not be lound to sustain it. To the first
part of the resolution there could be no
objection, but where it proceeded to cen-
sure the Government he considered it was
unwarranted. He had listened to the
didcussions on the Georgian Bay Branch
question without any remark, as he looked
upon it as properly a question between
Ontario aOd Quebec. Tlie hon. member
from Montreal threw some light on the
subject, when he said the late Sir George
Cartier had given a pledge to his Quebec
supporters that it was part of the policy

of the late Government, and he had no-
doubt it would have been constructed
had they remained in power.

Hon. Mr. AIKINS said it was no por-
tion of the policy of the late Government
to build the Georgian Bay Branch.

Hon. Mr. WARE said the policy of the
late Government was shaped by two men,
and the other members of the Cabinet
were left to look after the departments,,
therefore he did not take the hon . gen-
tleman's statement as being a'ithoritative.

Hon. Mr. MILLER asked'ii the policy
of the present Government was not
shaped by two of its members 7

Hon. Mr. WARK said he was not
re'ening to the present Government.

Hon. Mr. AIKENS said he considered
his word just as good as that of the hon.
gentleman.

Hon. Mr. WARK said he had not the
slightest objection to the hon. gentleman
thinking that he had shaped the policy of
the Government himself if he thought fit.
Sir George Cartier intended to take care of
the interests of Quebec, and it was the
intention to make a connection between
the railway system of that Province and
the Georgian Bay, so that traffic from the
west could come by this more direct
route to Montreal instead of ^u.ng by the
lakes and the St. Lawrence. He was not
prepared to say whether the road was
necessary or not, but he looked upon it as
a question entirely between the two Pi-o-
vinces. Some censure was applied to the
Government in a former debate, because
of the construction of the Pembina Branch,
but his impression was that this work waa
necessary at the time it was undertaken
in order to encourge the Northern Pacific
Railway Company to extend their
line to the frontier, otherwise tbey could
not be expected to do so, and turn out
their passengers and freight on the open
prairie. With respect to the part of the
resolution which said the course of the
Government had not been such as to de
velope tbe resources of the Northwest,
be did not see what other course they
could adopt than the one they had taken.
They were building the Pembina Branch
according to the policy of tho late Gov-
ernment, and they were building that
portion of tbe Dawson route on whioh
they had formerly to depend on staging.
Where was the delay? The Government
were building the section s tbat would be
first required. He believed a great mis-
take had been made by the Government
in their policy towards British Columbus}
they would have been quite justified in

liying to that Province, "a contract has
Bn entered into with you that is impos-
|ble to be carried out, therefore you must
content to wait and allow us to exam-
the face of the countrv carefully,
^hatever time it may take, and then we
rll commence the construction of the
Dad, but not until then " TTie experi-
loe which the country had in the con-
truction of the Intercolonial Eailway
^as a sufficient warning not to proceed
Hth such work without the most aoou-
ite surveys. British Columbia had not
^een neglected by any means; they had
^ine different lines of telegraph of an ag-
reip«t« length of 632 miles which
aceived a subsidy of $43,000
Der annum from this Government,
le did not know whether that was part
\t the compact with British Columbia,
>)Ut it was an indication that the Govern-
uent had not neglected their interest,
knd he thought, therefore, it would be the

feeliag of this House not to support this
asolution.

Hon. Mr. SKEAD said, as seconder of
k;he amendment of the member from
Prince Edward Tsland, be thought it bia
iuty to say a few words at this 8t»ge. In
khe first place it was necessary that he
should put himself right ia this House.
It was well known that when this Island
ilway was before this douse last session
le haid voted for it, and he believed in
loing BO be had acted in the interests of
the country, and in accordance with the
Dmpact entered into with British Colum-
l>ia at the time of Confederation. He had
voted consistently for the present Govern-
lent scheme of railways and water-
Btretoher, and be would now be consistent
on this occasion. As far as the tirst pai t
sf the resolution was concerned it would
leet with his approval, as his sympathies
vere with thts people of British Columbia,
bnt he could not go so far as to censure
fche Government of the day for the large
Bxpenditures that were being made on
fche Welland and Lacbine canals, which
ras the effect of the latter part of the
notion. He would do what he considered
vas right in this matter, independent of
party, and when any question came op as
Btween country and party he wouid
ftke the side of country. Ho would go
I far as any lion, gentleman on the floor
;f this Uouse in sticking by his part7, but
Then he came on the floor of this House
I far as his humble abilitios guided him

Ihe was determined to avoid party feeling.

flf a vote could be carried in this House

in condemnation of the general policy of

the Government that would be eflfective,
it would have his support, but the way it
was picked up piece meal to get up a cry
against theGovernment, he could not join it
although he had been twitted because he
did not. He was something of a mechanic,
and he knew that the first thing to do in
building a railway was to get the plans
and profiles, then when the contract was
given out the contractors would know
what to da Although they had survey-
ors at work in British Columbia, it would
take several months of careful calculation
to place the result of their explorations
on paper in order to prepare for the
giving out of contracts. The country was
pledged to the construction of the road,
and although he did not think it would
be built in ten or twelve years, it would
be as soon as the resources of the country
would permit. An hon. gentleman gave
it as his opinion that the railway should
go north of Lake Nipissiog. He agreed
with him, that was where the late Gov-
ernment intended to start it. He thought ^
it would be also wise if the present
Government would take advice in
time, and improve the navigation of
French River by constructing two or three
locks and in that way get into Lake
Nipissing ; then they could start their
roaii from the south east comer of the
lake and find a direct route to Pembroke.
No doubt British Columbia did riglit in
refusing the $750,000 that was offered to
them in compensation. If be had lived
there he would have done the same thing,
much as he would like to assist the
Government in what he believed to be
right. Gentlemen upon the other side
of the House had seldom or never been
known to vote against the Government
except upon that particular occasion, and
indeed he had very grave doubts about
the sincerity of the members of the Min-
istry uhemselves in that respect. He was
informed there were valuable coal mines
on Vancouver island, and if Victoria was
to be the great coal depot of the Pacific
coast nothing was more wanted than the
railway. He had himself always voted
consistently upon this question, but he
repeited his belief that the Government
hcul taken some of their supporters to a
quiet place and given them a bint to vote
the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Branch
down. The true course to take upon this
oco«sion was to neg, '■^■'e the resolution
and the amendment to the amendment^
and support the amendment of his hon.
friend from Prince Edward Island. He, at
least, was going to adopt that course.

lion. Mr. PENNY said he would not
liave risen upon this occasion except for
several observationB that had been made
respecting himself. For his own part, he
had never believed very much in the
grand hopes some people entertained with
respect to the Pacifio Railway. Ills own
impression had been, as was well ex-
pressed by hon. gentlemen upon both
sides of the House, that the proper way
to. get the road built, was to obtain the
assistance of the British Government.
He was neither a prophet nor the son of
« prophet, but be would be very much
mistaken if the railway were ever con-
structed until that assistance bad been
obtained, and obtained in a way very dif-
ferent from that in which the bribe was
thrown to us, with respect to the Wash-
ineton Treaty. It had always been his
opinion that it would be a long time be-
fore we got to Paradise — tliat Paradise
which bad been spoken of in such glow>
ipg terms by many hon. gentlemen — if we
had to wait to get to it by the Pacific
Bailway. Nothing except the flush times
"we experienced when that project was
conceived could have enabled the Gov-
ernment to carry it through Parliament
The Imperial authorities had given $4,-
000,<iOO sterling for the purchase of an
interest in the Suez Canal, and he saw no
reason, if Imperial interests were to be
{Considered, why they should not also come
to our assistance with regard to the
particular work in question. There was
DO mistake about it when we undertook
to unite with British Columbia, we also
jondertook to build this road. But apart
fi-om the details of the conditions on
which that union was consummated,
there was this general prevailing principle
of international law which ougtit not to
be forgotten — a law that erJstea between
•11 countriei) — that no treaty is binding
iezcept so far as it is possible to carry out
its terms. It had been arranged that the
railway should be begun within a certain
time, and finished within a certain time,
but there was this ccntingency attached
io the whole transaction — that the tax-
■ation of the country should not be in-
creased in consequence. He bad heard a
j;reat deal about the ambiguity of the ac-
tions of the present Government, but he
could conceive no conundrum more ex-
cruciating than that which was presented
by these terms accompanied by such a
proviso. The question to be considered
was, had the Government really endeav-
oured to carry out the spirit of the terms
Jle believed, as dxd the hon. gentleman

from Belleville, that the Government bad |
done everything within their x^ower in^
this recard. He bad seen photograpbl j
repres^KtiDg forty miles of the country |
through which it was proposed the road
should pass, and he was bound to >
say it presented some of the moatj
extraordmary features imaginable.
Throughout the whole dis nee there was |
bardly a place where a log cabin could |
be placed, and where the surveyors had
to project the line they were compel l«4
to erect a staging along the edge of the |
rock to enable tuem to make their suv- ^
veys. 'le had come to the oonolusioa |
that, j things considered, the Govern-
ment had done everything that could be |
done. However tbis might be, the Goluin-
bian Government appeared to have been
dissatisfied with the very reasonable propor
sition made to them by the DominiOQ
Government, through Mr. Kdgar. They
rushed to Downing street, and the Home
authorities made a certain arrangement,
which in reality was a new start. This
House, in its wisdom, when that arrange-
ment was submitted to them, threw it
out, and he took his own share of the re-
sponsibility of this action. There were
some gentlemen in the House, however,
whose conduct on that occasion he con-
ceived to be scarcely consistent with their
2)ast record, but no doubt it was perfectly
consistent with their consciences. These
gentlemen had declared, through an
Order in Council of the Government of
which they were members, that the load
from Nanaimo to Bsquimalt should be
part of the main line, yet when a propo-
sition was laid before tbis House to con-
struct that road they voted against it.
An hon. gentleman ha4 spoken in a some-
what mysterious manner about the proba-
bility of Government influence being used
with their supporters to vote down the pro-
position . So far as he was concerned, if
any influence was used or endeavourad to
be used upon him upon that occasion it
was in oruer to induce him to vote in the
very opposite way in which he diiL
A gentleman who professed to be, and he
believed was, acting in behalf of the Gov-
ernment, urged him to vote for the Bill.
He was opposed to it, as were several other
gentlemen, and although th«'' pressure to
which he had referred was brought to bear
and finally had the effect of making
seme of those gentlemen vote with the
Government — it had no eifect upon him.
He had exercised, independently, his dis-
position to serve the country without
respect to party. He would be candid

verninent bad
leir i>ower in
n pbotographi
the country
osed the road
as bound to
of the most
Imaginable,
nee there was
g cabin could
Bui'vsyors had
ere compelled |

edge of the
ake their sur-
>he ooDolusion
the Govern-
bat could be
be, the Golum-
1 to have been
ksonable piopo-
the Dominion
ifidgar. They
and the Home
arrangement) ;
>w start. This
1 that arrange-
them, threw it
bare of the re-
i. There were
l^oube, however,
lasion he cod-
itent with their
X was perfectly
iiences, These
, through an
Government of
. that the toad
alt should be
i^hen a propo-
Uouse to coa-
ted against it.
>ken in a aome-
tout th« proba-
nee being used
> down the pro-
i concerned, if
ndeuvoured to
at ocoBsion it
to vote in the
bich he did.
1 to be, and h«
alf of the Gov-
>te for tbe BilL
e several other
h^ pressure to
rought to bear
ict of making
vote with the
3ct upon him.
lently, his dis-
intry withoiit
ild be candid

kough to say that the action of several

•n. gentlemen in this House had done

letbmg to strengthen his determina-

1. He referred to the occasion upon

liich be saw certain hon. gentlemen from

Itish Columbia standing up and voting

Eiinst the Georgian Bay Branch. When

saw them join upon that occasion with

certain party, it occurred that they had

\t their idols, and it would be better to

kve them alone. It had been contended

bome hon. gentlemen that tbe Govem-

ent should have re-introduced this Bill.

was not such a stickler for the rights

id privileges of tbe Senate as some hon.

Intlemen were, but to take the

^urse which had been suggest-

he could scaroely conceive

I be respectful to this House. It would

iply be an attempt to force the House

\ retract the vote it bad given last year.

|ippose the Bill had been re-introduced,

would not have voted for it any more

Ian he did last year, and gentlemen on

\6 other side would also be unlikely to

I it. He admitted that British Colum-

being a small Province was entitled

I every consideration from hon. gentie-

9n representing the larger Provinces,

lit he vas also bound to say that British

plumbia was represented in both Houses

I Parliament very greatly out of propor-

Dn to its population. It seemed to him,

i consequence, that the representatives

that Provinoe should exercise some

^tle modesty when they deemed it

pcessary to bring matters up for the con-

leration of Parliament. With respect

the correspondence between the

lithorities of tbe Dominion and British

Dlumbia, ho might say that he was not

knerally disposed to be hypercritical

pout the language used on tbe other

but he could not help remarking

kat the latter displayed a wonderful

it of resources. It was surely an easy

^ing, if they considered Mr. Edgar had

>t the proper credentials, to have con.-

jnicatea with Ottawa and ascertained

■e facts. He might say the same with

Igard to the Order in Council which had

^en the cause of so much agitation and

so thoroughly misrepresented in

itish Columbia. That interpretation

never been contemplated by bis hon.

lends on the Treasury Benches, but

British Columbia members never

|}k the trouble to ask what it really was.

believed that the Bill last year was

rows out upon a party vote, and his

Uief was that his hon. friends from

ritish Columbia were very anxious lihat

their confreres from Ontario should have
all the credit of pursuing a policy antag-
onistic to that Bill, while through the aid
of the Ministerial party they should have
the advantage of the railway. He had
come to the conclusion that if he could
help it this should not be the case. The
hon. gentleman concluded by stating that
a great many engineering faults had been
attributed to the Government, but his
own impression was that every Adminis-
tration was bound to take the aivioe of
their chief engineer upon matters of this
kind.

Hon. Mr.MAOPHERSONsaid he would
not have addreb^ed the House again but
for an allusion which had been made to a
remark of his by tbe hon. the Secre-
tary ot State— that had a Bill come before
this House askmg |750,000 as a sop to
British. Columbia, he would have voted
against it, just as he had voted against
the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Bfulway, and
for thd same reasons. He would, indeed,
vote against everything he believed was
intended to postpone the construction of
our great Inter-Ooeanio Railway, which,
he had no hesitation in saying, both
these propositions had for their object.
Now the arrangement proposed to British
Columbia, as set forth m the Order in
Council, clearly showed that the offer
was meant to be a compensation for the
postponement to an indefinite period of
the construction of the main line of the
Paoitio Hallway, and he defied any one
who would read the papers to prove the
contrary. With respect to the arrange-
ment proposed by Lord Carnarvon, he
held that the Colonial Secretary made a
proposition which, with his means of ir
formatioo, he was justified in tbinkinij
would be accejptable to the people and
Parliament of this country. It was
merely so much nonsense to speak of
Dooming Street dictation in this relation,
as an hon. gentleman had done, or to say
that the amended termi' were made by
the Home authorities. No such thing.
The terms wore proposed by the Govern-
ment of Canada to British Columbia,
through Mr. Edgar, and the Colonial
Secretary, surely, was justified in believing
that no Cabinet would make a suggestion
on ths subject r/hich they did not know
to be acceptable to the people of Cansula
and their representatives. But this Gov-
ernment had no reason to suppose that
Farliaixient would consent to the postpone-
ment of the Pacific Railway, there was no
such desire or intention prevailing in the
country, and under the circumstances

4(;

■i«i'

they did what was quite unjustifiable
Trben they led the Home authorities to
believe that any arrangement which would
liave that effect would be assented to
here. It was futile for hon.g(^ntlemen on
the Treasury Benches to shield themselves
behind the excuse that this arrangement
«marated from Downing Street, and had
therefore to be assented to. As he
bad already said, Downing Street
simply aided the Canadian Qov-
ernment in accomplishiDg an arrange-
ment which the latter had represented
would be acceptable to the people of
Canada. The vote of the Senate last ses-
sion rnjccting the Eaquimalt and Nan-
aimo Ilailway Bill was a just and patriotic
vote, and had the approval of the coun-
try, for the all-powerful reason that the
people would not consent to postponing
indefinitely the constraction of the Faciiio
Bailway. If the Government had frankly
informed Parliament that they had been
engagf d earnestly in surveying the coun-
try, that notwithstanding so much money
had been spent for that purpose yet no
satisfactory route had been found,he would
have been ready to say that they did
what was quite rigbt. lie was prej^ared
to support tbem in making a thorough
survey of the country before the work
was proceeded with, but such was not
the explanation they submitted. They
came down last year with a scheme
for the construction of a railway
from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, which
waa neither more nor less than a co^'sid-
eraticn offered to British Columbia for
the abandonment of the main Pacific
liailway, and this year, with the same end
in view, they made offer to the authoi •
ities oftbat Province of a grant of $750,-
000 . If, instead of having been promptly
and emphatically refused by British Col-
umbia, astnat oticr was, it had been sub-
mitted to the consideration of this House,
he had not the slightest doubt it aliso
would be thrown out. He (Mr. Mac-
pherson) was infiueiiced in the course he
was pursuing by no party considerations
in the sense in which partizanship was
generally understood. He denied that
such existed to any extent in this House.
There were no great i)olitical issues before
the country just now. The question
which really concerned the country was
one of administration, the capacity or in-
capacity of the present Government to
adminbter the public affairs of Canada.
Upon that subject he had a very decided
opinion, for he thought it had been amply
demonstrated by their 2)arty negotiatiopf

with British Columbia, and their disturb-
mg but weak administration gen-
erally, that they were not the men
to lead this country to the de-
velopment of her great resources
which we had the right to look forward to i
in the near future. Ihey had been
spending large sums of money uselessly,
not only in this country, but also ui
Europe ; these nominally to promote
emigration, while their whole policy had
tbe effect of (liscomaging it. There was
no room to doubt tnat this continual <|
wrangling and disputation with British
Columbia hud had the very worst effect
U(iou the tide of immigration, tending as
it did to create distrust and weaken con- ']
fidence in the good faith of the country.
These things were well known on the
other side of the Atlantic, and very widely
discussed.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db ST. JUST— i
By the emigrants ?

Hon. Mr. M ACPHEBSON;»aid— Yea, by :
the emigrants, who were not so ignorant
as the hon. gentleman seemed to think.
He thought this sneer came with bad
grace from tbe Minister of Agriculture,
the head of the Immigration Department.
These people believed that Canada, or at
least tbe Government of Canada for the
time being, had abandoned the Paoiho rail-
way, and thus made impossible the large
demand for the labour of emigrants which
would otberwi<ie have existed. He be-
lieved this was tbe chief reason why i
immigration had fallen off so much. Tbe '
House, he remarked, had been trying to ^
get information from the Ministry all this
session upon the subject of tbe Canadian
Pacific Kailvvay, and they had failed to
gei it. The returns which ought to have
been brought down early in the sessioa ,
had not yet made their appearance, and |
the facts which ought to have been com-
municated to the House at the earliest
possible 0;^>portuuity bad not yet been
communicated. If the explanations of
lion. gentlemen on the Treasury Benches ;
bad only been taken down verbatim, and :
so read now to the House, it would be
iirpossible to conceive of a jumble more
inconsistent and contradictory that they |
would present. He diti'ered with the i
Government entirely upon this railway
question, it was not a British Colum-
bian question, either solely oi chiefly, but
a Doimnion question. Ihe Secretary of
State got u]> in his place, and informed
the House of how liberally the GJvern-
ment had treated British Columbia, and of 'I
how anxious tbey were that the people of

I Db ST. JUST-

tha*. Province sbould be satisfied and con-
tent. It was rot for the sole intflrest ofBrit
ish Columbia that the Pacific Railway was

Erojected, but that the Dominion might
ave a great Inter-Oceanic highway
of her own. He differed with the Gov-
ernment, because t^iey took a narrow,
contracted view of the question, and he
warned them, even had British Columbia
declared herself ready to accept the sop
nhich was held out to her as con:.pensa-
tion for the Railway, the gi-eat body of
the people of this country would not have
been satisfied, but on tbe contrary pro
foundly dissatisfied and indignant. Of
course British Columbia had grave cause
to com^jlain on account of the delay in
carrying out the agreement with her, es-
pecially in view of the haste displayed by
the Qovernment in placing under contract
tbe Georgian Bay Branch. Ministers
regarded a complete survey as of prime
necessity in British Columbia -and in
tJjis he agreed with them— but why do
they not pursue the same policy with
reference to the Georgian Bay Branch
Railway? They had actually entered
in^o contract for the construction of that
roud, not only without a survey, and
where it would be utterly useless, but
where it was impossible to build it, except
at enormous cost. The first tweaty-six
miles from the mouth of the French River
eastward was a baro rock — naked eranite
— upon which even the most stunted weed
would not grow. Why was it not as ne-
cessary to survey this line as thoroughly
as that in British Columbia, before putting
it under contract? And, moreover, it was
not a part of the main line. There was a
treaty with British Columbia to build the
railway, which might have aocounl«d for,
if it would not have excused, some undue
haste ou the part of the Ministers, had
they incurred some risk in proceeding
vrith the work in that Province, but there
was no treaty affecting the Oeorgian Bay
Branch. No treaty ; no trade, and no pait
of British Columbia could possibly be less
fertile or less populated than the country
through which the Georgian Bay Branch
would pass, if built, and yet, in the lattei
case, a contract for its construction had
been entered into before the line harl been
surveyed — a contract, by the way, which
the very facta he recited had since com-
pelled the Government to cancel. And
now they talked about making tbe ter
minus twenty-six miles up the French
River, and building a look to make that
river navigable to the Georgian Bay. Did
the Governmest actually believe that

propellers from the lakes would be
diverted from their course to go even
into the mouth of French River, not to
speak of twenty-six miles inland?
Surely not. It htd been charged that
this was being made a party question in
this House. He denied that he and his
friends regarded it from a party point of
view in the sense in which that was gener-
ally understood. But the difficulty with
British Columbia had arisen out of a
party question — or more i)roperly npeak-
ing out of party defection on the Minis-
terial side— a party mutiny he might
call it. It was a very serious defection,
for it was led by a great captain, a mem-
ber of the other house, whose influence
extended to this House, and caused the
defeat of the Nanaimo and Esquimalt
Railway Bill last session. The Hon. Sec-
retary of State had appealed to the
House, and especially to the members of
the late Government— wi<h whom he
^Mr. Maopherson) had dififered on their
Railway policy— to support the Govern-
ment on that occasion, on the ground
that an Order in Council bad been passed
by the late Government, declaring Es-
quimau the western terminus of
the Pacific Railway. The House
had also been told that had
these hon. gentlemen and their friends
supported the measure, it would have
been carried. But Ministers should look
for support to those upon whom thoy had
some claim, and it was because their
friends refu ' 3d to support their Bill that
it was defeated. The Government had
no claim upon the members of the late
Government or their supportsrs, or upon
a gentleman like hun, (Mr. Macpherson)
who wished to see our great Northern
Railway proceeded with, for support for
tbat measure. It was not one for con-
structing or advancing the construction
of the Canadian Pacific Railway, but for
obtaining the consent of British Columbia
to tbe abandonment of that railway. That
consent was not obtained. He (Mr.
Macpherson) would oppose all expendi'
ture in British Columbia except that
mide in building the main line of the
railway, or provided for in the agreement
with that Iravince. The hon. gentleman
from Montreal (&fr. Penny; hid suggested
that it would not be respectful to the
House to submit the measure again. No
one in the House had a more intimate
acquaintance with public affairs than the
hen. gentleman, and surely he did not
pretend seriously to assert that it was not
quite usual to submit measures sessiou

after BCBsion which were believed by the
Government to be for the interest of the
country. He gave the N^ova Scotia Coun-
ty Court Judges Bill of last session as an
example.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— That Bill was thrown
out last year for special reatons.

Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON said every Bill
that was thrown out was thrown out for
special reasons, and the Esquimalt and Na-
naimo railway Bill was no exception to
the rule. That it should not be reintro-
duced was, he had no doubt, one of the
conditions upon which the defection had
been overcome, and the ranks of the
Government party closed up. Why was
the decision of Parliament so scrupu-
lously regarded with reference to this par-
ticular measure, while it was so openly
disregarded when the Georgian Bay
Branch was in question. That the Gov-
ernment had a powerful political reason
for urgency with the latter — although a
reason they dared not make known to
Parliament ~ he had very firmly believed.
He also believed they originally intended
to reintroduce the Esquimalt and Ka-
naimo Railway Bill, and it was very safe
to presume that it was a party arrange-
ment arrived at during the reoess, which
was fatal to that railway. The fiact that
the Government ordered steel rails to be
shipped to Vancouver Island after the
Bill authorizing the construction of the
Esquimalt aud l^anaimo Hallway had
been lost proved that the Government
then intended tc renew their endeavour
to carry out this arrangement with British
Columbia, and intended to apply again to
Parliament to do so. Unless they in-
tended to do this, the shipment of rails
after the loss of the Kailway Bi.ll was an
act deserving the censure ot Parlia-
ment. But he believed the truth was
the difficulty among their friends had to be
appeased, and one of these ^Mr. Macmas-
ter)who was moat conspicuous for his oppo-
sition to the Itailway Bill, and contributed
to its loss in that House last session, only
a few days ago made an ostentatious pro-
fession of bis renewed allegiance to the
Government. But among the conditions
on which peace had been restored were,
he firmly believed, the sacrifice of British
Coluoi bia and the abandonment of the Ca-
nadian Pacific Bailway, so far as these ob-
jects could be accomplished by the present
Government. He (Mr. Maopherson) did not
regret the loss of the Esquimault and
NauAimo Railway Bill, for he would have
voted against it had the opportunity
offered this year, as he did last .

Hon. Mr. PENNY— So would I.

Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON continued
that it was a curious circumstance,
after the rails for the Esquimault road were
at Victoria, the Government should have
abandoned the project, and oGTered
(750,000 to keep the people of British
Columbia quiet. The reason was per-
fectly apparent. Hon, gentlemen must
not suppose that the members of this
House were unable to draw their infer-
ences from these circumstances and the
others which happened concurrently.
However, he believed that all would turn
out for the best in the end, like most
other things — that a wise Providence
would bring out of these occurrences
results which would tend to the benefit
of this people and country. Although
the Government desei-ved no credit for
the part they took, what had been done
would he believed arouse the country to
the short comings oi* the Government,
and would lead to the early prose*
cution of the Pacific Railway- just as
early and as fast as the circumstances of
the country would admit. It was very
evident that a great change had come
over the views of the Government and
their supporters upon this question dur-
ing the debate. In the early part of it—
and he remarked a similar tone in the
debates in another place— nothing was
said about the Pacific Railway except
to the discredit of the undertaking :
now their tone was entirely changed, ana
all the latter speakers in that hon. House
admitted that the construction of the
Pacific Railway was desirable, and that it
ought to be proceeded with steadily, and
as rapidly as the ciroumataaoes of the
country would permit.

Hon. Mr. PENNY— I say of it now
what I said before.

Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON— Did I not
understand the hon. gentleman to say that
he was in favour of the Pacific Railway ?

Hon. Mr. PENNY -I said I believed its
construction desirable— but impossible
with our resources.

Hon. Mr. KAULBACK moved, sec-
onded by Hon. Mr. MILLER, that the de-
bate be ac^ourued.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db ST. JUST
said this matter had been arranged to suit
the views of hon. gentlemen opposite,
after it had, strictly speaking, fallen to
the ground. He protested against the
prolongation of the debate under the oir-
cumstaiices.

After some further deiultory discussion,
the motion for adjournment of the debate
was carried.

Hon. Mr. KAUIiBACH, reBuming the
adjourned debate on the Hon. Mr. Dick-
ey's amendment to tlie amendment of
the Hod. Mr. Haythomo, to the motion
of the Hon. Mr. Carrall— to resolve:—
That tlie construction of the Pacific Rail-
way having formed the principal condition
upon which British Columbia entered the
Canadian Confederation, every reasonable
effort should have been made by the
Government of the Dominion to satisfy
the people of that Province that faith
would be kept with tbem ; but this
House regrets to find that while iucurrinjr,
or ready to incur immediately expendi-
turea of several millions of dolUrs not
needed or of doubtful utility, the Govern-
ment has failed to proceed vigorously with
the construction of our great national
interooeanio railway, which is so essential
to the material advancement of all the
Provinces of the Dominiou as well as
to the early consolidation of political and
social union among 'the whole people.
He said, after the many and very able
speeches he had the pleasure of listening
to on the resolution before the House, he
folt great diffidence in soliciting his hon.
friends to give him their attention, even
on the promise he now gave to condense
and shorten his remarks as much as
possible. Hince the time that the 'union
of British North America under one Par-
liament and one constitution became the
fixed and determined policy of its states-
men and these Provinces became united ;
since the time the hon. gentlemen from
the Atlantic to the Pacific, who now heard
him, first met here in Parliament, there
never had been a subject before them of
Buoh magnitude and importance as that
of the Pacific Bailway. Viewing It, no
oxatter how they each might, yet every
hon. gentleman to whose remarks he had
listened had not failed to view it as a
federal work of Imperial and national im-
portance. He might except, perhaps, his
hon. friend from Montreal, not now in his
seat, who seemed to have no faith in it,
but yet that hon. gentleman did not
venture on repudiation, well knowing
as he must that to break faith with any-
even the smallest of the Provinces— to
aay to it "tre have no need of you," would
be to loosen the cord that united us, and
impair hopes of ouv future to which we
cling. We must not forget, that as yet
we were as a bundle of sticks loosely tied
together, that we could not permit repu-
diation, which means disintegration, that
as a Dominion the hopes of our future
greatly depend upon the de?elopment of
4

the resources of our great West and '
British Columbia, which coulJ only be <
accomplished by the construction of this C
great Interooeanio railway on the full r
faith, not only in the ability but also in
the integrity of the country, to aocom<
plish this great work upon which we had
entered. He would not occupy the time'
of the House in remarking upon thesreat'l
value of British Columbia as a part of this
Dominion, occupying as it did the same
importance on the Pacific as Nova Scotia i
did on the Atlantic ; neither would he •'
dwell on the importance to this Dominion
of its mines of coal, iron and gold, or its
great fisheries as yet undeveloped, but
would pass on to the i^uestion now before
the House. They woro first asked to re-
solve that the construction of
the Pacific Railway formed the
principal condition upon which
British Columbia entered this Confeder-
ation. They certainly could not
have any hesitation in coming to that
resolution ; it had not been gainsaid that:
there was a distinct and specific agree- '-
ment with that Province on the fail h of
which it entered the union, that a railway
should be constructed from a point on the >
Pacific sea board, to be fixed by the'
Governor in Council, througb British
territory to eastern Canada, to hei
built as a federal work by the Do- i
minion. (Hear, hear.) The telegrams
fiom British Columbia at that time de-
clared that "no real union could exists
without speedy communication," and"
they must have all seen that the unica
without such a reasonable and proper'
communication would be neither desir-
able nor proper. (Hear, hear.) The
tre< < <^ .3 entered into between British
Co'. A and Canada in 1870, to which
the Imperial Gh)vemment was ap arty, and
loaned the Dominion £2,500,000 in aid of
uniting and welding together all the
British North .^erican Provinces from
sea to sea. The term, ten years, fixed to
complete the raUway, was understood
simply as a guarantee that the Govern-
ment were in earnest and determined
that the road should be completed as
speedily as possible, but not to advance
the work faster than our resources wonld
admit or the engineering difficulties
could be overcome. It was well known
that the railway was to be constructed
through a terra incognita, and that
it would have been the extreme of
madness and ruin to all parties
to determine on any potitive time for its
oomplotion. (Hear, hear.) He would in-

•if

vite the attention of the House to' a
•hort extr<iot from the speech of the
hon. the mover of the reaolutipn in 1871,

groviding for the odmissi'm of British
olumbia into the union, in conKrma-
tics of this positioD. He had said : "i.
was net intended that we should proceed
in the i>ce of insuperable obstacles or
jeopardize or endanger the resources of
the country. It must be remembered
that the people of British Columbia will
stand in preclaely the same position as
we ourselves ; their representatives will
be here and in the other branch equally
mterestec in the prosperity and economi-
cal administration of public affairs. We
mention the time of ten years as a guar-
antee that we were in earnest and the in-
tention has always been the same, the
construction of the road by private* enter-
prise and such aid as vre could give with-
out injuriously burthening the resources
of Canada. The present Government
could not say that their predecessors
made the tea yeai-a limit imperative.
He felt quite confident that no hon. gen-
tleman on either side of the House would
dissent from that part of the motion of
hii hon. friend from Amherst which
would bare them affirm that this House
fully recognised the obligations of the
Dominion to secure the construction oi
the Canada Pacifio Railway with the ut-
most speed compatible with a due regard
to tbo other financial requirements of the
Dominion, and without unduly increasing
the rate of taxation . The Government of
Sir John Maodonold should be commend-
ed for the resolution they passed in 1871,
shortly after the terms of union were
•greed upon. It was in effect that the
PAoific Railway should be constructed and
worked by a company subsidized by
liberal grants of land, money, or other aid
not increasing the existing rate of taxa-
tion . By this resolve Canada had been
saved from any exorbita^l^ or ruinous de-
mand, should British Colilmbia ever desire
to have the railway pushed forward to the
isjary of the Dominion, of which she was
t6 form a part. Hon. gentlemen were
all.atvare of the favourable contract that
had been entered into by Sir Hugh Allan,
b)r which we were pledged to the extent
of $30,000,000 in money, and it could not
be gainsaid that Sir John honestly endea-
voured by every moanr< to carry out the
project. It waa now a matter of history
the manner in which that contract failed.
All political parties were lK>und to the
completion of the rail vay, yet it was a
notorious fact thtt the preser :- Qovem-

ment rode into power by scheming and
intriguing to crush that great underlakingi
and it uame with bad grace from the
Hon. Secretary of State the other day,
when he said the present O^jposition put
party first and country afterwards. He
would now endeavour to show the ruinous
policy, the inconsistency and incapacity of
the Government in grappling with this
work,the completion of which was so eNsen-
tial to our existence as a Dominion and
our growth as a happy and prosperous
people. In the Minute of Council of the
.30th of March, the Oovernraeni referred
to the terms of union with British
Columbia as " those ruinous terms," and
it would be remembered that the contract
for the building of tbe railway was based
on those terms yet the Minister of Agri-
culture the other day, in addressing this
honourable body, stated that the land
scheme d not offer suffioiont induce-
ments, V 't was well known that this
Governn t only defeated the sclieme
but unuc. ^oK, as a Government, U>
build the railway as a Government work,
increasing therefor the taxation of the
country some three millions, of dollars,
and also passed an Act to add forty mil-
lions of dollars to the i>uhUo debt ; and
in addition agreeing to build a local rail-
way on Vancouver'* Island, to cost this
country some unknown number of mil-
lions of dollars more, and complete th«
Pacific Railway iit fourteen years. Yet
they would now tull the House that th*
railway was to be built on the express
condition that the taxation of the coun-
try should not be increoMd. (Hear,
hear.) Eon. gentlemen would agree with
him xhz.v tuc Government were only
liound when they took office to prosecute
the construction of the Faoifio Railway
with vigour and speed consistent with
the difficulties to be encountered, and
they were not bound to have the railway
completed in ten years ; yet they found
the Government insidiously endeavouring
to make the country believe that the road
could not be built, while, as he IukI
shown, they had added immensely to the
burthens of our debts and the taxation
of the country. What further did tbe re-
ports and papers before the House show ?
They had first a letter from the Prime
Minister to Mr. IDdgar, dated 19th Febru-
ary, 1874, instructing him to pr06oed to
British Columbia and let tbe people of
Vancouver's Island understand that the
Government were not bound to build the
railway on that Island, and further to
seek to obtain by any and all means any

meaoB any

Urms. Then wn have Mr. Edgar's lotter
addressed to the Attorney Qeneral of
British Columbia, dated the 8th of May
following, in wLioh he rifrered, on behalf
of this Governuient, to instantly build a
local railroad on the Island which would
cost about five millions of dollars, and in
addition to spend |1,5CX),U00 every year
in British Columbia on the Pacific Bail
vray, i^so to construct a telegra^th and
waggon road, provided that British Col-
umbia did not hold them to the ten years
limit. The following was one of the
olauses m that letter:— 'The 11th ar-
ticle of the terms of union nmbodies the
bold proposition that the railway shall be
commenced in two and completed in ten
years from the dale of union, to connect
the sea board of British i i umbia with
the railway system of Cai .da. Feeling
the impossibility of complying with this
time limit for completion, the Qovem-
ment are prepared to make now stipu-
lations and enter into additional obliga-
tions of a definite character for the benefit
pf the Province. They propose to com-
mence the uonstruction of the
road from Esquimalt to Ntn-
pjni immediatedly, and to push
that portion of the Railway on to
QOmpletidn with the utmost vigour, and
in the shortest practicable time." The
British Columbia Qovernmont declined to
consider th's offer unless the Agent show-
ed his official authority to contract for the
Pominion. What was the next devious
course of tho Qovernment? Inptead of
KOEtking from this Parliament Bu);>por''. and
advice, they found the Ministry referring
ito whole matter to the arbitration of
Lord Carnarvon, who, on the 17tli Novem-
ber, 1874, awarded that thu Railway from
i^quimalt io Nanaimo should be com-
menced as soon as possible and completed
with all practicable despatch} that a
waggon road and telegraph line should be
inunediately oonsti'ucted ; that two mil-
lion dollars a year should be tue minimum
e^benditure on tho Pacific Railway with-
in British Columbia, and, lastly, that on
or before the Slst December, 1890, the
Bailway should be completed and open
for traffic from the Pacific seaboard to a
point at the western end of Lake Su-
perior. And now, to crown all, what did
the country find? That this Government,
on the 8th of December, 1874, by Minute
of Council, approved of the award, and it
would suffice to read the two clauses :
" The conclusion at which Hia Lordship
has arrived, upholds, as he remai-ks, in
^6 maiUi and suiajeot only to some modi-

fications of detail, the policy dictated by
the Government on this r ost embarrassing
question, rhe Ccmmittt 9 of the Couuou
respectfully request that ,'ourExcellffnoy
would be pleased to conv >y to Lonl Car-
narvon their warm appre nation of the
kindness which led His Lo. i^ip to ren-
der his good offices to efieot a settlement
of the matter in dispute, and also to
assure Ilis Lordship that every effi>rt wiU.
be made to secure the realization of what
id expected." Comment on this would
be unnecessary. If ever any set of men
attempted to hurl a country into bank-
rupi -.yand ruin, this Qovernment, by this
transaction, did it; and, but for the action
of tho Senate last session, this Dominion
would have been irrevocably bound to con-
struct the Pacific Railway in fifteen years,
no matter what difficulties, physical or
otherwise, might stand in the way. They
would have to construct the Esquimalt
and Nanaimo Railway immediately at a
cost of nobody knew how much, but say
15,000,000, which the Government in th«
Minute of Council of September, 1875,
declared did not form a portion of the
Pacific Railway, but was essentially a local
work. They were also to construct a
waggon road and telegraph line, besides
expanding not less than two millions of
dollars every year on the Pacific Railway in
British Columbia. How could the Gov
ernment now dare to hedge themcelvea
under the the plea of no additional
taxtion? As he had said before they had
daved the country in thia Senate from
untold burthen and enormous taxation. It
wa* too late now for this Government to
hedge themselves by declaring that they
were controlled by tho terms of the reso-
lution of 1871. He had already shown
that they by their action had ignored that
resolution by offering new terms to British
Columbia, imposed additional obligations,
and increased taxation in the Dominion.
The preamble to the Pacific Railway Act
of 1874 declared that this Government
had increased our taxation three millions
of dollars to make provision for the con-
structing of the Pacific Railway as rapidly
as possible, and the Act passed the same
year authorized a loan of forty millions of
dollars, and recited the terms of union a»
its chief reason for borrowing that money.
Thic money was borrowed on the Imperial
guarantee, and was obtained exclusively
for the Pacific Bailway. Even that money
had been diverted from the objects for
which it was intended, and devoted
partly to paying Dominion debts au4
building canals, and a large quantity wa»

imy

squandered in the steel rails job. (Hear,
hear). He felt free to state that he did
not coasider the Government were very
SDxiouB that their Bill to construct the
local railway from Esquimalt to Nanaimo
should pass the Senate last year. Hon.
gentlemen well knew the action of the
Government supporters in this House on
that Bill, and could form their own con-
clusions. It was evident that the great
Aurora speech bad something to
do with the matter. The action
of the Government, on the other
band, showed not only political incapacity
and want of security, but a blunder of a
kind of which sane men would scarcely be
guilty, and he felt that the members of
the Goremment in this House ought to
join at leatu in that part of the resolution
of his hen. friend from Amherst which
expressed regret that the course adopted
by the Government in connection with
this matter had not met the expectations
of the people of British Columbia. They
now came to the last part of the resolu
tion, which was "that the course adopted
by the Governa. int in connection with
this matter bad not been such as to facil-
itate the development of the Northwest."
Although it was ess«ntial that British
Columbia should have this railway, and
tho faith of the Dominion was pledged to
its construction in a reasonabN time, yet
it ought not to be looked at in ' sc»>ional
way, but as essentiai to the d''velopment
and consolidation of the Dominion.
Therefore, from a Canadian point of view,
it would be admitted that the Govern-
ment had not paid that attention to push-
ing on the railway from Manitoba to the
Northwest that its importance deserved,
and it was a wonder that the settlers in
that region continued to quietly suffer so
long. It was our great Held for immigra-
tion and p'. pulation, and from which the
Dominion jxpectea to derive the first
fruits of the railway ronstruction. It
cou'd not be questioned, if the Govern-
ment bad proper confidence in themselves
to boner tly commence the work and
realize the vast importance of the
whole Dominion, the early settlement
of the Red Giver and the great prairie
country, and pursue a cautious, and yet a
vigorous and determined policy; to
grapplo '.rith the dltficulties that con-
fronted them instead of wasting all their
energies in attempting to subsidise
branch railways and to buy out British
Columbia ; they would not now be com-
pelled in justice to the Northwest to
declare tbia censure on the Government.

There was yet one act of the Government
which could not be passed over in silence,
it was the bribe of r 750,000 lately oflered
to British Columbia in compensation for
the indefinite postponement, not of th«
Vancouver Island Railway, but of the
Pacific Railway. These were the wor Js of
the Minute in Council of September last :
"That the compbnsation given then by
Canada for any delays which miy take
place in the construction of the Pacific
Railway." It was now they could look
with feelings of pride to the large hearied
patriotism of British Columbia, who
spurned 'his bribe, and who could not be
purchased with money to the amount of
three quarters of a million of dollars, but
in their reply they said that " disappoint-
ment, discouragement, and distress had
taken possession of them by reason of the
repeated violations by the Government of
Canada of their engagements." Here
were the words of the British Columbia
representatives of the people, thrrigh
their Speaker, to Her Gracious Majesty,
on the 29th of November last : — " A feel-
ing of distrust has taken the place of the
confident anticipations of commercial and
political advantages to be derived from
the speedy construction of the
railway which should practically unita
the Atlantic and Pacific shores of Your
Majesty's Dominion on the continent of
North America." These ^orethe words
of the people, bunung with patriotism,
who sought to maintain their connection
with us nnd tliair treaty obligations, who
said to us, as far as tho A tlantic shores : —
"We wish lo be one with you in all the
relations and advantages which the coun-
try possess ; we wish to preserve our Brit-
ish connection here, ami reap our share of
the happiness and })rosperity of that con-
nection, and, if needs bo, to share in the
defence of the integrity of the country."
He regarded the Government policy of
utilising the water stretchflri as n scheme
that could not be successful, ia- the route
would be long and tedious, and even as a
temporary policy must occaiion a large
expenditure of money to make connec-
tions with navigable waters or roads,
whicli must ultimately be useless after
the construction of a continuous rail
route. Besides this, no posjible way had
been shown as to how the water sections
could be used in winter — nearly six
months in the year. The hon. member
for Hopewell had pointed to the Ameri-
can Pacific Kiiilway as a precaution to us,
and sta^^^ that it went through a settled
country, and it had other great ad van

§1

overnment

pin silence,
iely oflered
asation for
not of the
but cf the
le worJs af
:iuber last :
a then by
1 miy take
the Facifio
could look
ge hear led
obia, who
mid act be
amount of
dollars, but
diaappoint-
is tress had
tasoD of the
ernraent of
ts." Here
Columbia
le, thrr-igh
us Majesty,
~"A feel-
lace of the
mercial and
irived from
of the
cally unite
88 of Your
bntineut of
J the words
patriotism^
connection
[ations, who

shores : —
u in all the

1 the ooun-
'6 our Brit-
)ur share of

that con-
lare in the
e country."
t policy of
>9 a scheme

the route

even as a
an u large
ike connec-

or roads,
leless after
nuous rail
te way had
;er seotioos
learly six
member
the Ameri-
iition to U8,
;ha settled
cat advan

tages. His belief was that that railway
ran through a country which, for soil and
climate, could not favourably compare
with the line w lich we could construct,
and that the engineering di'dSculties nhat
the U P. Railway had to overcome were
infinitely greater than ours ; yet that road
had been a "nccess. '-Settlements had
been made, towns had sprung up along
the route. As an instance of the benefi
oial effect of the construction of the
railway,ChicH';a had doubled its population
since the raiiwuy had been built. The
country through which it passed was
nothing to compare with our great West,
and wli^a we reached Victoria wo would
be a thousand miles nearer to China
HGd Japan than the people of San Fran-
cisco, tic bad endeavoured in his poor
way to mako it plain that this country
was never absolutely pledged to build the
Facifio Hallway within ten years ; that
the country only expected the Govern-
ment ehotild do everything that was rea-
sonable and in their power to perform
their engagements with British Columbia ;
that the present Govemmer.t bad never
shown any faith in themselves, nor had
they endeavoured to inspire the people
of British Columbia with confidence that
the Ministry were sincere and earnest in
their work, but on the contrary, by every
means in their power contrived to induce
British Columbia to release them from
their responsibility, and had wasted
money on works in the name of the Paci-
fic Railway that had nothing to do with
it ; that instead of diligently carrying on
the explorations to determine on some
objective points at which ♦ commence
the work they had sought t-j x upon the
Dominion greater obligal^ >'i than had
been bequeathed to thi?' , md now en-
deavoured to make the ^ouiitry believe
it was all owing to the faults and follies of
tbetr predecessors.

Hon. Mr. WILMOT stated that he only
wished he could believe all that liis faon.
friend from Nova Scotia had said. He
thought that it would be very unwif/e tc
pasd aiiy resolution in connection with
this matter. On (he Statute Book was a
law by which the faith of the Dominion
was pledged to build this railway, and it
was on all sides agreed that thiu
ahould be done without inc>-?c5ing taxa-
tion, but no one could think that such a
culmination was within the boui\d8 of
possibility. He could not vote for any
of the resolutions which had beer, aub-
icilted to the Hoi":o, and a large number
of the repraseutati^esiu the other bi::ncli

of the legislature, who were directly res-
ponsibla to the tax-payers, bad decided
to maKe use of the navigable waters with
reference tctthis great work. Undoubt-
edly we haa a great territory in the
North-west and had expended large sums
L) induce immigrants to settle in it, and
now we were called upon to pay large
■iuta» of money to support them. If that
country was worth anything at all it had
agricultural resources, but if it could not
provide food <or its people, he did not
think that it was necessary to
build this railway. When confederation
was accomplished in 1867, our debt was
193,046,051, and last year it had attained
the figure of $151,663,401.

Hon. Mr. MILLEtt —Does not that in-
clude the debts of British Columbia, of
Prince Edward Island, and of Manitoba }
also tie several mi' lions taken from the
Provmces of Quebec and Ontario, propor-
tionate sums being allowed the other old
Provinces, as well as the debt contracted
since confederation ?

Hon. Mr. WILMOT replied that the
fact remained, that our present debt
amounted to $151,663,401. He would
mention that up to the end of last year, the
sum of $4,800,000 had been expended on
the railways. We could not expect that
it would be remunerative. He thought it
would be hardly worth while for this
branch of the Legislature, whioh did not
represent the tax-payers, to pa»s a
vote of censure on the Government
for not having made more progress in this
relation. He felt that it wk3 unwise to
run into debt by borrowing money in
England. His hon. friend from Lunen-
burg had referred to what the Americans
had done in a similar connection, but this
had been done under the greenback sys-
tem, which made a great deal of differ-
ence. We occupie 1 the same poeition as
the United States in 1837, when liev.
Sj dney Smith wrote a letter with regard
to the repudiation by Pennsylvania of its
engagements. He hoped that the Do-
minion would never be compelled to fol-
low this example.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— But my hon.
friend forgets how that State triumphed
over its difficulties, and how prosperous
it is now.

Hon. Mr. WILMOT did not desire to
ever see the stigma of repudiation at-
tached to this country. He did not be-
lieve in borrowing money, save to the ex-
tent wo could ourselves provide. In 1861
our realisable property amounted^to four
hundred milions; and since then It must

'VA

*,•?'

liave largely increased in value. British
Columbia could furnish the gold that
xnifiht be requirtd. This Province was very
valuable to the Dominioi) ; its climatic
advantages were much greater than our
own ; it possessed a great yariety of re
sources, and it was nearer to <'hinaand
Japan than this section of the Dominion.
A commercial crisis at present prevailed ;
and it was not wise to pass a resolution
directly contrary to the verdict of the
people at the last general elections. It
was almost the height of absurdity to sup-
pose that this railway could have been
completed within ten years. He hoped
that his hon. friend would withdraw his
resolution.

Hon. Mr. LETBLLIER Db ST. JUST
fltnted tbat this question ought to be cos
sidered i'ruiQ two points of view ; the
first was that which related to tlie obliga-
tion existing, owing to the engaL'ement to
build this railway, entered into with Bri
tish Columbia ; and the .second that
■wliioh compelled those who were opposed
to this engagement to remain faithful to
the solemn resolution of a majority of
PHrliament. At the time the proposition
was made to annex British Columbia to
the Dommion, every one was aware that
both in this and the other House a
strong opposition vn.» offered to
the conditions in question. This obliga-
tion, however, contracted, only one thing
reniained to be done : to fulfil the terms,
and this was a duty. What were the
conditions? That the road stiould be built
within the space of ten years. After-
wards a resolution pasBe(l both Houses,
declaring that the prosecution of this
work should nut involve any increase of
taxation. Ue maintained that this agree-
ment had been faithfully ob»«rved by
both the lato and present Qovernments.
The late Cabinet had resolved t'> build
the line by means of a companv ; one was
organised, but it failed to raise a loan for
the purpose. In the meantime, explor-
ers tad been 3ent out to locate the route.
Then another event occurred ; the Gov-
e'nment, of which his hon. friend from
Kingston was a membt r, in order to oon-
oiliate the irritated spirit of British
Columbia, and a« a sort of eqiiivalent for
the delays that had taken place, passed
an order in Council providing for the
construction of the Nanaiao and Esqui-
mau Kailway. Seven montLs, in addition
to the two years, during which time the
railway was to have been com-
menced, had expired, when the
change of Qovernment to^k place.

The present Administration con-
sidered that under thi ciicumstanoes
it was necessary to adopt a line of con-
duct which would not involve useless ex-
penditure, while, on the other hand, they
felt that it was their duty to provide th©
most easy means of communication with
the North-West Territory, in order to pro-
mote its settlement, and this object Was
p,lways kept in view, and every one knew
how desirable this was. At the general
election which followed the accvssion of
the Premier to power, the latter aD-iounc-
ed that the water-stretches would be
utilised in connection with this project.
He asked the House whettier the policy
inaugurated by the present Administra-
tion wasi not wise and advantageous and
less costly than that of the late Govern-
ment? At present certain hon. gentle-
men seemed to wish to ridicule it, and
to imply that those who did so had
not at heart the well beiag of the coun-
try, and the due observance of economy
in the administration of public affairs.
One would im igine, from tne expressions
of its representative.s, that the Province
of Manitoba had been bad'y treated in
this connection, but he believed that if
any part of the country had been gener-
ously tre ited it was this very Province,
and the Government desorvod more con-
sideration from its representatives. An-
other matter should also be considered by
these hon. gentlemen — ttie agreement to
construct the railway from Pembina to
Fort Garry, providing nev means of en-
tering the North-West Territory.
What right, therefore, had they to
complain ? They reDroach- d the
Government with takinjf advantage of
foreign lines to semi emig''ants into that
country ; but how did the Administration
endeavour to preve.it th« Americans ob-
taining the settlers, was it not, to the ad-
vantage of that I'lovince ? Those who
chose to shut their eyes to these facts
mi.'ht do so, but he regretted his hon>
triends from Manitoba bail taken su'^h •
position. The tirtt step taken to open a
line of communication ^'ith the Pacific
bad been most favourable to that Pro-
vince, and next vea>< all the means to
reach it would be provide I. It might b0
said that this louie could only be used
during the seas )n of naviuation, but at
what other tim^^ could emitrrants reach
that country, leaving here as tbov gen-
erally did between the eu<l of May nnd
the en 1 of September. They could be
sent by rail and water to Prince Artbur'ii
Landing, and ttjence by similar means tO

Manitoba. This route was 200 miles
Bhorter for reaching not only that Pro-
vince, but the country beyond. If the
Qovernment had not intended tc locate
and build this railway, it would not have
expended the money it had upon ezplor-
ations, etc. There was another point
which had formed the subject of many
ill-found'^.i comments he had let pass in
silence. Tt was alleged that the policy
of the Government was prejudicial to the
interests of Jjower Canada and the Mari
time Provinces, but this was not the case.
i t was also held that the Georgian Bay
Branch was not a section of the Pacific
Eailway proper, and this he admitted, but
a law liad been passed directing that this
line should be built on certain conditions.
What was the object of this I'Sgislation ?
To cstabli h the possibilty of building
this road between Lake Niplssing end
the Eastern lines, and in what condition
would central Canada and Quebec be
placed if it was not built, becoming one
of the links connecting these port ons of
the country with the Pacific Ocean ? He
asked the representatives of Quebec and
of the Lower Provinces'- ethor this policy
militated against their erest". Without
the Qeor^'ian Bay Raiiwuy t'le orifice
which Quebec at present was making
would be of no avail. It was (^xtrcitjely
desirable that the hon. gentlemen who
lived in that Province and Central Canada
should understand the importance of the
resolutions before the House . Those who
wished to support the policy of the Oppo-
sition against the Government would seal
the fate of the Nor oh Shore Railway.
Should we ruin the future of Gan>^da for
the sole benefit of British Columbia ? We
should h nostly fulfil our engagements
with that Province, but in seeking to do
so, we should not so affect our credit as to
render that fulfilment impossible. Un<lo7
these ciroutnstanoea, we should aot with
prudence, and within our means. The
Lon. gentlemen for British Columbia
should act in harmony with those who are
endeavouring to give them the means of
succeeding and accompli.ibing the object
they had in view. Hi hon. friend
had stated, the other
was absurd to think
the Georgian Bay
no exploration of the
line had been made ; but to this be would
reply, that the hon. gentleman had form-
erly supported the scheme for construct-
ing the whole Pacific Railway wht n not a
single inch of the route h*ul beea surveyed.
What were such arguments worth ? No-

from Toronto

day, that it

■of building

Branob, when

thing; it would have been bottflr if the
hon. gentleman had not used them,

Hon. Mr. MAuPHERS'JN— I never said
that.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER De S'i\ JUSr—
If the hon. gentleman says so, very well.

Hon. Mr. MACPHERSON-I said that
an entirely different policy had b^en
pursued in British Columbia to
that with respect to the Georgian
Bay Branch. With regard to the former, the
hon. gentleman and the Administration
said that nothing could be done antil a
thorough survey had taken place, of which
I quite approved, but they did not follow
the same course .with the Georgian Bay
Branch. The contract was given when
not a fojt of the line had been surveyed,
and was afterwanis cancflled,

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER De ST. JUST
asked how was the hon. gentleman wil-
ling, under the circumstanors, to have the
contract awarded before any exploration
was made ? The objection the honi gen-
tleman raised applied with greater for<ie
to this than to the other case. The Gov-
ernment had spent nearly $2,000,000 no
the railway and $8 0,000 last year in sur-
veys over the Rocky Mountains; and in
presence of these exertions to keep good
faith, how could it be reasonably said that
they did not desire to fulfil their obliga-
tions? Th portion of the road near the
Pacific sh( ^ bad not yet been decided
upon , thes<; regions were comparatively
unknown, and an error in engineeritta
might entail th< cost of an additioaal
$8,000. i»Oor |10,0(K),OCO. The country,, if
the o lortunity was given it, would de-
clare lUat no useless expenditure should
be incurred.

Hon. JVIr, CAMPBELL-We are all of
the same op i: j a on this point. -

Hon. M. LETELLIER Da ST. JUST
could not then understand why the hoa.
gentleman could not perceive that the
present Government was doing all it coulsi
iu this connection. The Ministry could
not perform impossibilities. The respoii-
sibility of originating the Esquimalt and
Nanaimo Railway scheme htid been throwh
on the Government This was most \i£-
just. Great discontent had prevailed in
British Columbia owing to the deliys that
had taken place with reference to the
commencement of this railway, and whatt
had the Ministry done ? They passed ab
Order in Council declaring that a railwajr
on the other side of the Narrows, betweeb
Esquimalt and Nanaimo, would be built
as part of the Pacific line, though tbe
law did not authorise them to incur Ml

.50

; ,

4!, i

obligation which would necessitate the ex-
penditure ol" at least a further $5,(XX),0(X).
Th«» present Premier, after taking oifice,
wan called upon by British Columbia to
build this railway, owing to the promises
made by bis predecessors. The Cabinet
replied that no such obligation existed.
And what was the answer ? That it was
promifeed as compensation for the delays
mentioned. It was the duty of the Qov-
ernment to oonciliate as far as pos
sible the people of that Pro-
vince. Mr. Edgar was sent out therewith
this end in view, and nothing save the
construct ion of this railway would satisfy
them. Liter Jjord Carnarvon included it in
the conditions in the way of compensation,
and it would have been very difficult to
refuse the intervention of the noble lord.
The Qoverninent accordingly ronsijered
it their duty to introduce the Esquimalt
■ and Nanaimo Railway Bill, which passed
through the House of Commons with the
ftid of the Opposition They knew what
the fate of the Bill was in that House.
It was alleged that the Government had
urged their friends there to vote against
it ; but this was not the case, and the
bon. gentleman from Montreal, one of
their friends, who so voted, had announced
in the Chamber that he had been solicited
by a member of the Administration to
support the measure. The hon. gentle-
man had not said by whom he had been
BO requested, but he would add
that this was himself. The Government
had made every effort to secure
the passage of the Bill. A friend of the
late Administration in the House of Com-
mons had recently stated that, after con-
senting to support it in the Chamber, he
came there with the consent of Sir John
Macdonald to induce their friends to vote
against the Bill. Could it then be said
that the Government desired its rejection?
Censure, in this relation, fell on the Op-
position. 'J'he declaration, to which he
alluded, had been made on Friday last in
the House of Commons, by the hon.
meuiberfor Cumberland, and ii must cer-
tainly edify the hon. gentlemen from
British Columbia.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELI/-Tho bon. gen-
tleman is quite mistaken. Sir John Mac-
donald, as far as J know, re ^uested no one
to vote against the Bill, neither did the
hon. member for Cumberland j nor do I
know that either did anything whatever
in this connection.

Hon. Mr, LETELLIEB Db ST. JUST—
I did not say that Sir John Maodonald
Bugiiested it ; but the Hon. Mr. Tui)per,

in reply to Hon. Mr. Blake, said tba<^
though he aided to pass this Bill before
that. House, he came here to suggest, wich
the approval of Sir John Maodonald, who
was sitting at his side when he made this
statement — that it should be thrown out.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— Was that ssid
by the hon. gentleman himself?

Hon. Mr. LETELLIEB Db ST. JUST
replied— Yes, in presence of Sir John
Macdonald —Political feeling was be-
trayed in the motion before the House,
which, if carried, would be a vote of want
of conBdenoe. This it was useless to try
to conceal ; and if the vote was hostile, it
would be declared that the Government
had been censured in the Senate with re-
gard to its Pacific Railway policy. The
hon. gentlemen from British Columbia,
should exhibit a proper deeroe of pa*
tienoe, seeing that the Government
was endeavouring to carry to a suc-
cessful completion this great national
work, but he did not think that they
would desire this at the risk of bringing
ruin upon the Dominion. A few yeara
ago, when in opposition, he had made
every effort to defeat the Pacific Railway
scheme ; V>ut to day he held that it was
his duty to aerisc in observing the solemn
engagement existing between the Domin-
ion and the Province of British Columbia.
It was not intended that this House
should pass votes of want of confidence
on administrationo ; and when, as might
happen, the politioal complexion of th»
mi\jority might be reversed, and the Cab-
inet leing changed, the majority of that
body 2)laced in opposition, they might
follow the bad example which might now
be bet them. The present majority should
be careful as to the attitude the/ as-
sumed. H«9 could not refrain from be-
lieving that to party spirit was due the
resolutions under consideration, and he
ho;ied that xbe motions would be with-
drawn, ho^. gentlemen having been fur-
nished with an opportunity for expressing
their opinions in this regard, if the mo-
tion was carried, it would imply a vote of
want of confidence, and its result would
be to embarrass the Government.

Hon. Mr.GIliARD, &i the Minister of
Agriculture alluded to his expressions of
opinion, requested the indulgence of the
House, in order to give him the opp 'r«
tunity of making a reply. The hon- gen-
tleman dwelt upon favours extended to
the Provmoe of Manitoba, but he would
remind the hon. gentleman that he repre-
presented, not only that Province,
but also the Dominion. It was conse-^

quently his duty to take the general in-
terests of the country into consideration.
Despite what the hon. gentleman might
■ay, he was not influenced by paHy feel-
ing in taking the position he dii. He
always regretted to express views in op-
position to the policy of the Government;
but nevertheless he was in duty bound,
as well as others, to make known his
opinions to the Admmistration, in order
that occasion might be given for reform-
ing an improper policy, or rendering
more justice to the country. He bad
stated the other day, and he did not then
hesitate to repeat that the policy of the
Ministry, wi h reference to the construe*
tion of the Pacific Railway, was tortuous,
expensive, and unwise. Their first step
had been to resolve to utUise the water
stretches, but the result would be that
the money spent in this relation might
as well be thrown into ihe sea. 'Die
country required a direct line from the
Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean, extending
our commerce, and giving us access
to the riches of the East. When the
Qovernment had been requested to locate
the route so as to pass dose to
Fort Garry and to the south of
Lake Manitoba, what was the reply given
to the various delegates ? " You have no
right to it ; this is not your road but the
railway of the Dominion."

Hon. Mr. J.,ET£IJJEB Dh St JUST—
Hear, hear.

Hon, Mr. GIRA.BD— The hon. gentle-
man exclaimed "hear, hear," but in this
he heartily agreed with the Ministry—
the road was not for Manitoba but for the
Dominion, in virtue of the resolution
adopted in the year 1871. If a change
had not taken place in the Cabinet, a
portion o; the line at the present time
would undoubtedly have been built, and
the route at least surveyed throughout.
A resolution in existence stated that it
should be built without renderini; any
increase of taxation necessary, and what
had in reality given umbrage to the

Eeople of British Columbia had been the
esitation shown by the Government to
give them justice. The Administration,
when Miey determined upon the construc-
tion of the Nanaimo and Esquimalt
Railway, adopted an unsound policy, and
when the Bill was rejected a great ser-
vice was done the country. The inten-
tion of the Ministry, as far as he could
see, bad been, had that Bill passed, to
postpone for a long time the construction
of this railway. They did not wish to in-
Tolve the country in enormous liabilities, i

He regretted the position in which
he found himself; and he protested
strongly against the insinuations thrown
out from time to time to the offect that
he and others, members of that body^
were inspired by political motives. He,
for his part, could not see how party
spirit could exist in this Chamber. He
would give bis opinions frankly. He
conceived that it was his duty to follow
the policy of the Government with the
greatest interest ; aud he would have
much rather preferred to have felicitated
than condemned— as he was obliged to
do— the course taken in this relation by
the Administration.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Letellier) had stated that
Sir John Macdonald had said in the other
House that after voting for the Esqui-
mault and Nanaimo Bill, he advised his
friends in the Senate to vote against it.
He (Mr. Campbell) had written to the
hon. memoer for Cumberland, asking him
if such was the case, and his reply was : —
" No, what I said was, ' as the Govern-
ment had voted down my resolution re-
quiring them to submit contracts to this
House, I said that if Sir John and I voted
against the third reading, and our friends
in the Senate voted against the Bill, there
would be nothing inconsistent in it.' "

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db ST. JUST
said he had not stated positively
that the hon. gentleman had said that
he had asked his friends in this House to
vote against the Bill, but he had sug-
gested it.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said the denial
was oomjilete on that point,

Hon. Mr. CARRALb—ro whom did he
make that suggestion ? Not to me.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db Sr. JUST
said, in reply to Mr. Blake, the hon.
gentleman had stated that he had sug-
gested to his friends in the Senate to vote
against the Bill.

Hon. Mr. PRICE laid he understood
Mr. Blake had asked his own friends to
do the same thing.

Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND, after re-
viewing some historical points in connec-
tion with the entry of the North-West
into the Ck>nfederation, said that if Canada
had not been so hasty in taking hold of
the Province the people would have had
it in their own hands to-day, without it
costing the country a single cent. The
Hudson Bay Company and their officials
had begun to find out, previous to the
transfer, that it was impossible to govern
the territory. The Governor told him so

.^8

1%.
i

himself frequently, and thoy would have
had to give it up. It vras a sore qivsstion
with the people of Manitaba, and with
many other people ; he believed it would
have been better to leave it to oblivion.
The settlers were also very
much dissatisfied with the land
policy of the Government; it was
not that the policy was not good erough
in itself but it had not been cairied out.
He had always been of the opinion that
the building of the railway had been a
mistake ; the Thunder Bay Branch could
not be utilized as a portion of the main
line without making a detour of some
sixty miles. He feared that the Govern-
ment had over-estimated the advantages
of the water-stretches, as when the Pem-
bina Branch was constructed it would
take the business, and the other railway
would be closed five or six months out of
the year. Then the line from Eat Por-
tage had been run to the north east corner
of the Prcvince the most worthless part
of it, and the immigrants coming to Win-
nipeg by that route would have to travel
twenty 4hree miles up Red River to get
to Winnipeg, and none of the lands in
that section of the Province would be
located until all the lands in the Sas-
katchewan were taken up.

Hon. Mr. PRICE called attention to the
remark of the Minister of Agriculture
that the Opposition themselves in that
House were actuated by a party, factious
spirit, although the m(^mbers were not
responsible to the people. He disclaimed
all such motives on his part, and said he
felt that he was there in the position of
a judge and not as a party man. He was
one of those who had supported the
Pacific scheme of the late Government
and if it had been carried out as proposed
by them, they would now have had
a railway built half way to British
Columbia, The present Government
should have adopted that policy instead of
spending the money in t iking a gen^
tleman out of thia House to give him a
job.

Hon. gentlemen— Ob, Ob, Oh I

Moo. Mr. PRICE— Yes, a job ; a man
who was the prin( ipal cause of the fall of
the late Go>''^ri'>rjient, and they gave him
tiiis contract as a bribe.

Hon. gentlemen— Oh, Oh !

Hon. Mr. PRICE said— He would state
it again ; if it bad not been for that man,
and the jealousies of a rival railway, the
Pacific Road would have been now built
half way to the Rocky Mountains. He
waa satisfied that the explorations that

were now being made were more with a
view to defeat the railway than anything

Hon.Mr. FABRE— I regret that the
movers of the motion and amendment
submitted to our consideration have not
followed the good example given them
by my hon. friend from La Yalliere, and
withdrawn tbem. It seems to me that
any useful purpose or legitimate object
they might have in view has been ob-
tained, as full opportunity has been afford-
ed to the representatives of British
Columbia in this House to lay before the
Senate and the country the views enter-
tained in their own Province on the policy
of the Government in relation to the Pa-
cific Railway. The case has been ably
and fully laid before us. We now ignore
nothing that we ought to know on the
subject. We first heard our hon-
ourable colleague for Cariboo (Hon.
Mr. Carrall). He spoke with suoh
earnestness and conviction that he must
have made an impression even on the
minds of those who are very far from en-
tertaining the same views as himself. He
went so far as to deny to himself the plea-
sure of making, and to deprive us ot the
pleasure of hearing, some of these witty
remarks of which he is so ^ond, and for
the first time since i have aad the honour
of occu2)yiug a seat in this Hnuse, I saw him
looking as grave as a Senator. He has
been ably supported by his two colleagues
from British Columbia, and the question
has been fully ventilated. But if the hon.
gentlemen are decided to force a vote
upon us on this question, I beg to tell
them, respectfully but frankly, that I
think they arc wrong. Columbia has no-
thing to gain by following that course, »Mid
it seems to me that the Senate has some-
thing to lose by it. I may be wrong, and
in this case the more ex^jerienced and
wiser men I see around me will pardon
me ; but I conceive that it is not the part
assigned by the spirit, if not by the lettar,
of the constitution to this honourable
body, to throw itself into the pohtical
arena with the ai-dour of youth, and the
hasty spirit that animates the popular
branch, and to try to wrest the poWer
from those who have received it from the
hands of the people, and to thwart the
policy which has obtained the support of
the other House. Our duty, our part, I
hiiiubly submit, is not to vote non-confi-
dence in the Government, to defeat it on
its general poUcy ; but to control legisla-
tion, and ccvrect measures as they come
before UB. We must avoid oominn into ooa<

flict with the other House oa what must I
eeem to every one its special privilege.
Now, honourable gentlemen, let us ask our- ]
selve.y what will be the consequence if we
adopt the Hon. Mr. Carrall'a resolution as
amended by the Hon. Mr. Dickey ?
Whv ? it will place us in direct opposition
to the House of Commons, whose senti-
ment appeared clearly enough when the
same question was discussed the other
day in that House, we know with what
result ; and I am very much mistaken if it
is to the course proposed to us that the
country would give its sanction. The
prevailing sentiment in the other House,
and certainly in my own Province, is just
now that it would have been better if,
after the fall of the conservative minis-
try, the idea of constructing the racifio
had been at once abandoned.

Hon. Mr. OARRALL—I contest that.

Hon. Mr. FABRE— I claim that I must
know a little more about my own Province
than a member faom British Columbia. I
repeat that the Liberal government would
liave found more favour among its friends,
and more favour among the people, if it had
on all subjects adopted a more radical po-
licy, broken at once and decidedly with the
engagements and line of policy of its pre-
decessor. Certainly, a great number of us
felt disappointed when we heard the
Ministry announce that in so many things
they would adhere to the policy of the
Conservative Ministry. In relation to the
Pacific Railway specially, we would have
wished that the Government would have
taken a more decided attitude, and told
at once to British Columbia that, though
very desirous of keeping her in the
bonds of Confederation, we could not
afford to keep her at the cost of con-
structing the Pacific Railway.

Hon. Mr. MACPFERSON— Is that the
opinion of your preBe»^t Loader, the lion.
President ct the C*^' ocil ?

Hon. Mr. Fi" .j5— I express my own
opinions, not tLose of others. But, hon. gen-
tlemen, if this radical course has not been
followed, is it for tlL^e members of the Con-
servative party, is ti for T>riti8b Columbia
to complain 7 If a mdder course bas
been adopted ; if since two yeais with
a zeal and a patience, before threats, that
everyone ought to admire, the Govern-
ment has tried its utmost to conciliate
the interest of Columbia with that of the
oountiy at large, baa applied itself to
find a proper solution to tho difficulty,
and has succeeded so far as to obtain
from a large number of mtmbers of the
Liberal party, who do not believe in the

scheme, their support for measures which
you call insufficient, but which to many
of us appear very hard to concede, I say,
ought you not at least to accord the Gov-
ernmentjustice for manly and loyal efforts?
Certainly, if we take into oonsideraticn
the relative state of opinion in the
Liberal and in the Conservative party, it is
but justice to say that the present Govera-
ment has shown as much sympathy for
Bi itish Columbia as its predecessors. It
has worked hard in her favour against
tlie current of i>ublic opinion, which would
have gladly seen the whole Pacific sohema
carried away in the Allan scandal, and in
the downfall of the Macdonald Govaro-
ment. Please recall to your memory the
events and sentiments of two years ago,
and see if, at that time, the repudiation of
all obligations towards British Columbia
would not have been met with a nearly
universal approval ? The Conservative
party was too weak then to be oi cny use
to British Columbia. It had by its bad
management, by its corrupt bargain wU^
Sir Ilugh Allan's agent rendered her
cause unpopular ; her case hopeless. If
British Columbia had not been thea
assisted by the men in power, by the
leaders of the Liberal party in pow^r, it
would to-day be out of Confederation, if
her threats are sincere ; or deprived of
any hojpe of ever having anything to alle-
viate the sorrow she seemed to have felt
in t^e trying hour she decided to join us.
With due regard to the majority of tbiii
House, it appears to me that this great
question has been approached with more
rashness than fairness. I fail to find in
uiany of the declarations I have heard
that wisdom, prudence, and foresight
which ought to characterize all the uttwr-
ances of a body of men of so large an
experience and so high a character.
I have had to listen with amaze*
ment to some of the speeches
made in this House. Why, some of ue
speak of this gigantic scheme au if it wts
a matter of course the easiest thing in the
world, a kind of a branch railway between
two not distant points. Are they really
serious, or simply applying for suppOBt
from British Columbia in the present very
great need of the Conservative party } If
th'y really felt as much interest for
British Columbia as t ley pretend, they
would not treat such a subject so UghUy,
with BO little regard for obstacles, thfti
must appear to every reflecting miftd
frightful, tremendous}. The facst is thdt
to carry the gigantic work through, moat
take yeais and years) it is only with

sea

«0

51 fit

great caution that we can proceed in the
interest of the enterprise ittelf, because
any giave mistake would be a death-blow
to the scheme. If ever, by the fault of a
scheme so distasteful to many, the coun-
try falls into embarraB!>ment,— as would
be inevitably the case if the Government
followed the advice given th( m by some
of the speakers,- it will be done with the
whole tbin^, and British Columbia will
have to mourn the irreparable loss of the
enterprise. The leaders of the Conserv-
ative party felt this when they had the
responsibility of ofHce. We have been
informed, by the best authorities, that
it was never thought of to adhere to the
term of ten years fixed for the completion
of the work. It wbs only put there to
defy public opinion, I suppose, and to
show that nothing was beyond the reach
of our statesmen. It was a &raoa<fo, some-
thing like an immense pufiT, to give to
outsiders a lofty idea of our public mir.d
But, then, if it was never intended to
build the Pacific in ten years ; if it was
never dreamt of; if the thing is now con-
fessed to be absurd ; on what ground can
it be a reproach to the present Government
not to adhere in any way to terms so
foolish ? Unlike its predecessor, the pre-
sent Government is not disposed to take
engagements it knows it can't carry ;
it asks Columbia to place implicit confi
dence in us, and to strive in friendship
with us to attain the object we mu^t have
both at heart, the interest of the Domin-
ion first, the interest of British Columbia
second. British Columbia knowing that
the preceding Government never intend-
ed to carry out the scheme in ten years,
has no right to ask the present Govern-
ment to bind itself to any specific
tei.-ms. It ought to be enough for her to
krLOW that she will be dealt with with due
re.^ard for the common interest of the
people of the Dominion. It has been
said and repeat' d that we must be loyal
to British Columbia ; but in turn is it too
much to ask British Columbia to be loyal
to Canada, faithful to the interest of Ca-
nada as much as if it w^s her own ? Has
she really made i-uch a sacrifice in coming
into Confederation, that nothing short of
blind sacrifice on our part will satisfy her?
I don't believe so ; she appreciates too
highly the advantage of being united with
us under a common rule, of participating
in all the advantages of a commjn state j
•he knows too well that nr*T. ttiat she
ia one with us, ruin for us would also
mean ruin for her.
Hon. Mr.TBUDELsaid he would not

follow his hon. friend in the remarks he
had made on the old Pacific scheme.
Although not his intention to doso hdhad
shown to whom was due the misfortune
and want of success. The hon. Minister
of Agriculture had endeavoured to im-
press on this House that the pissing of
this resolution would be equivalent to a
D-otion of want of confidence, and that
such motions should not be brought be-
fore this Chamber; the hon. gentleman
knew very well if that was the signific-
ation of such votes in the past, he would
not have continued to occupy a seat on
that side of the House, as many votes ad-
verse to the Administration had b<ten
passed. He considered that when the other
House could not condemn a measure of the
Government without, condemning the Gov-
ernment, that this House had th-« same
right to express their opinion of the Gov
ernmoat measures, especially when it
had not the effect of putting: difficulties
in the way of the Government. They
were here to judge of the measures of
the Government on their merits without
any regard to the consequences their vote
would have on the Administration. The
resolution proposed that this House
should declare that the policy of the
Government in this matter of the F<tcifio
Railivay did not meet with the approval
of the House. He thought they coald
not approve more of the policy of the
Government than the Government them-
selves. A few days ago they had heard
the Secretary of State declare that they
had abandoned part of the scheme,
which the Government proposed/them-
selves to follow last year — the Georgian
Bay Branch.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER Db St. JU.ST
denied that the Georgian Bay Branch had
been abandoned. The contract with Mr.
Foster had been cancelled.

Hon. Mr. TRUDEL said, as he had
stated before, the people of Quebec were
not satisfied with the Georgian Bay
Branch, as they considered it was not the
best route to connect t'leir railway system
with the Pacific Railway ; and now h«
would suggest that es the contract had
been cancelled, it should be allowed to
stand until it was ascertained that the
North Shore was not a better route. He
had to recognize the fact that the Minis-
ter of Agriculture bad never before gone
so far as he bad done to-day. It whs the
first time they had had a frank de-
claration from him that lie desired
to build the Pacific Hallway, and that he
would do his utmost to bring the road to

emai'ks he
io schf>me.
loaohnhad
misfortuae
1. Minister
red to im-
pissing of
talent to a
', and tbat
brought be-

gentlemaa
he signific-
t, he would
^y a seat oa
ly votes ad-
1 had b<4eQ
en the other
lasure of the
ingtheGov
i th^ same
of the Got
y when it

difficulties
uent. They
measures of
fits without
» their vote
■ation. The
ibis House
I icy of the
' the PiiOiEo
le approval
they codld
olioy of the
ment them-

had heard
e that they
le scheme,
posei^them-
le Oeorgian

St. just
Branch had
ct with Mr.

as he had
iuebeo were
>rgiaa Bay
was not the
Iway system
nd DOW he
ontract had
allowed to
that the
route. He
the Miois-
before gone
It wns the
frank de-
iie desired
^nd that he
the road to

completion. This was not sufficient,
however, for the House to declare that
the past policy of the Government bad
been good With reference to the threats
of the Hon. Minister of Agriculture that
the members of this House from Quebec
who would not support the Government
in this matter would find that it would
have the effect of depriving that Province
forever of the Itenefit of the Pacific Rail-
way, be thounht the hon. gentleman must
have taken them fjr children.

Hon, Mr. 1.ETBLLIER Db ST. JUST
eaid the hon. gentleman had misinterpre-
ted uim ; whathehadsaid was, iftha mem-
bers for Central and Lower Canada voted
for this motion,it would make them lose the
link which was to unite the Pacific Railway
with the railroads of Quebec. Although
this vote of censure, if carried, would not
necessarily be fatal to the Government,a8
such a vote would be if carried in the
other House, it was of great importance.
Tills was the reason why be had said that
this House bad the right tc/ explain their
views and place them before the public,
but it would be better not to pass such a
vote of censure when, by doing so, it
would not place the Opposition in any
better position.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL— Then vote with us.

Hon. Mr LETELLIER De ST. JUST
said the Government had shown by the ir
pushing on the construction of
the different links of tho rai.-
road: by their continuous exer-
tions to make the location of the
main line through and beyond the Rocky
Mountains, and by the construction of the
Pembina Branch their desire to fulfil to
the best of their ability their obligation
to British Columbia.

Hon. Mr. MACDONALD said he had
to oppose both the amendments. Sup-
posing the Government should be dis-
posed not to proceed with this work as
fast as they ought, they could fall back
on this resolution, and say, " We have
done what you told us, wo have gone to
work, having a due regard to the other
financial reqitirements of the country, and
could do no more." The object sought to
be attained by the motion before the
House had, in his opinion, been attained
An expression of opinion, embracing both
sides of this question, had been had, and
that was all that was necessary.

Hon. Mr. CARRALL said before the
question was put he claimed the right to
make a few remarks. He felt the gravity
of this subject ; he felt that dunsg this
session, ko aiagiilarly barren of any im-

portant legislation, this resolution was
the most im^>ortant motion tbat had been
brought before the House, not only i>hi8 ,
session, but since Confederation. He
believed that the majority of this House
would agree with him that the policy of ,
the Government, or the no policy of the :
Government with respect to the Pacific
Railway from its inception down to the ,
present hour, had not given satisfaction
to the people of Canada. Their object ,
was first to defeat tlie scheme of the late
Government, which was, he considered, a
national calamity. It was a difficult
thing at the present day to have any of ,
their political acts judged fairly, and they
bad only to look to the future for a pro-
per veidiot. As at present, he ventured ^
to state, however forbearing or considerate
their actions might be, it would be attri-
buted to party warfare. Every hon. gen-
tleman must have been convinced thai .
from the time the late Government were
overthrown the policy of the present Ad-
ministration had been the most marvellous
mass of incongruities and contradictions
that ever any Ministry stood god-father
to, and he ventured to assert tbat it must
discredit them in the eyes of every right
thinking man in the Dominion. He was
sorry to li3ar the allusions made to the
position of British Columbia re-
preientatives in this Parliament,
but he ventizk-ed to assert that
if they did not numerically, they did
financially represent as important consti-
tuencies as any other six members in the
Commons and three in the Senate. He
did not deny that Britiah Columbians
would like to have money expended in
their Province, and he did not think that
any other gentlemen would dislike to
have money expended in their Provinces
also. He thought it should have been
ber o«th the dign'ty of the Hon. Minister
of Agiiculture to have brought down a
statement, showing the amount of revenue
from British Columbia and the amount of
public money expended ihere, as an argu-
ment against them. He would have
looked for sucn a tbmg from a Lower
Town grocer, but not from a Dominion
statesman. If he thought the vot-» for
his resolution '/*culd have thd etttitct of
overthrowing thb Government he would
hesitate to press it, as he did not think
the country was quits ready for the
change that was coming. But that the
country was misrepresented he bad not
the slightest doubt, and he would point,
as a proof, to the result of nearly every
new election since the general election,

which showed a rapid growth of absolute
want of confidence in the AdminiBtrati3n
of the day. Ho thought this debate bad
elicited a great deal of information on the
Bubjeot, and when the outside public read
the reports, it would, perhaps,
have the effect of maturing public
opinion, and forming some sound policy
upon which the railway scheme could be
based that would be acceptable to the
entire Dominion.

Hon. Mr. DICEEY said in his opinion
the Government had failed entirely to
defend themselves and their vacillating
course in this matter, or to grapple with
thegreat question of the Pacific Railway.

The vote was then taken on the amend-
ment, which was carried on the following
division : —

OoNTBNTS — The Honourable Messieurs
AiUns, Alexander, Allan, Armand, Belle-
roee, Benson, Botsford, Bourinut, Camp-
bell, Carrall, Chapais, (Jhinic, Cochrane,
Cknnwall, Dever, Dickey, Dickson, Ferrier,

Girard, Hamilton (Kingston), Kaulbacb,
McLelan (rx)ndonderry), Macpherson,
Miller, Montgomery, Muirhead, Odell,
Price, Ryan, Shaw, Smith, Sutherland,
Trudel, Vidal-34.

NoN-CoNTBKTS— The Honourable Mes-
sieurs Archibald, fiaillargeon, Bureau,
Chafi'ers, Christie (Speaker), Cormier,
Fabre, Ferguson, Quovremont, Ilaythome,
Leonard, Leiellior de St. Just, MoClelan
(Hopewell), McMaster, Macdonald (Vic-
toria), Faquet, Reesor, Scott, Se}rmour,
Simpson, Skead, Stevens, Wark, Wilmot
—24.

Hon. Mr. DICKEY called attention to
the fact that Mr. Archibald had voted, al-
though he had paired with Mr. Northap.

Hon. Mr. ARCHIBALD said the pair
only held good for Friday night.

Hon. Mr. MILLER said he understood
from Mr. Northup that ho would not have
gone away until after the vote, only for
having paired with Mr. Archibald.

Kaulbaoh,
acpberaon,
&(], Odell,
iutherland,

tble Mea-
, Bureau,
Cormier,
laytbome,
, MoClelan
nald (Vic-
Seymour,
k, Wilmot

ttentioD to
voted, al-
!fortbup.
d the pair

mderstood
d not bare
only for

», o;
id.

'^3

i'^- '!■ Friday, April 7.

PACIFIU BAILVTAY.

Hon. Mr. COHNWALIj— In rising to
addrvu the Uouse on the tubjoot to wuich
my motion relatoa, I do so without any
feeling of diffidence, for I feel in the tirat
place that the subject is one vrhich from
its importance, will command the atten-
tion of the House { and, secondly, that
the experience of fourteen yoars si)ent
in British Columbia, and the knowledge
of the country which I have necessarily
attained, enable me to give to this hon.
Houa* the information which I am sure
it would be gUhl to obtain. I have con-
sequently placed on the minutes the fol-
lowing notice, " that I will call attention
to the considerations (other than those of
engine*ring diffioultiee) which affect the
quMtion ot the location of the line of tue
' Paolfio lUiilway from Tete Jaune Csche to
the ocean," and in praceeding with that
notion I must promise that I shall
•tidMvoar and that it is my earnest wish
to divost my remarks of any sectional ori
prsgudiced obairaoter. There is no doubti
that In these matters • one's n;ind and]
views are mofe or less, and perlia^s ttn-
known to oneself, biassed by private in-
terests, but in what I shall say I shall
endeavour so to confine myself to matters
of fact capable of the clearest demonstra-
tion that 1 will venture to assert that not
one of my arguments shall be open to
refutation. There can be no doubt that
there are other questions besides those of
mere engineering deUul which intimately
ooncem the settlement of so important a
matter as the location of the line of the
-great trans -continental railway; and of
such importance are those questions that
it behoves both the country and the Par-
liament of the country to watch closely
what is going on, and to have an intelh-
gent and appreciative knowledge of the
country through which the line should
run. Hon. gentlemen have doubtless
•tudied with some degree of attention the
map of the projected course of the Cana-
dian Paoifio Railway which has laid upon
the table of the House for some ten days,
•and having done so, I hope they will be
able to tmow me in the remarks which I
mi^make on the threia separate routes
whioh are marked upon that map as
bAVing been surveyed tlirough the Pro-
Tinne of Brttiih Columbia. I^e first route
towhiohl ifrish to call attention is the
aaoat toutherly of ttiose tuftifked upon the
«ui^ and 1 aUU dlaiitlitilih it by the
^waneof thi"FMww River raute." Ibe two
6

other routes I shall allude to as the " Buto
Inlet" mute and the ''Oardnor Chan-
nel route" those names being respec-
tively the names of tho so-called harbours
which the routes reach on the coast of the
mainland of British Columbia. The first
point of superiority which is oiyoyed by the
"Frazer River ttoule" over Its competitor^
is embodied in the fact that it ii the
shortest and most direct of the routes
from the Rooky Mountains to the cosat.
I bold in my hand a statement of the
comparative distances of the surveyed
routes, kmdiy supplied by the principal
authority on the truns-continoutal survey,
and I find by it that the distance from
the Yellow Hoad Pass through the Rocky
Mountains to Burrards Inlet, the project-
ed terminus of tho "Fraier River Route"
is 513 miles, while from the same point
to the Head of Bute Inlet is 560 miles,
This will show a difference in distance in
favour of the "Frazer River Route" of 47
miles, while the jjtatement to whioh I
refer says that the line to "Qardner
Chanqel" not being accurately shrveye4t
the distance cannot be correctly ffiven.
That point of greater direotnesa and
shortnesu on the part of the "Frazer
River Route" is the first whioh I will
commend to the attention of the House
as important. Tho next point is as to the
grade on the line. In order to carry con-
viction on this point to the minds of hon.
gentlemen it is necessary for me to de-
scribe the course of the "Frazer River
Route." Leaving "Tote Jaune Cache," a
point which is common to all the survey*
ed lines and situated a little to the west-
ward of the Rocky Mountidns, that route
within a few miles strikes the bead waters
of the north branch of the River Thomp«»
son, and follows down the valley of that
river till at a distance of some 200 miles it
reaches a place called Kamloopson the
main stream of the River Thompson. It
thence follows, without deviatiouj the
course of the river till it reaohea the point
of confluence of the River Thompson with
the Frazer River, and thenoe following the
valley of the latter stream it reachea the
coast of the mainland of British Columbia,
at the harbour of Burrard's Inlet. Hon.
members will thus see that this route
follows uninterruptedly what is the natu-
ral outlet of the countoy. It is conftqed
to the valleys of the great rivers I have
natudd, and they having no fiklls of impor-
tance in any ifwt of their course to the
ocean, it naturally follows that the natural
gryhde is regular aud favourable. All
r^potta of the ebgLuMn engaged agree

■■■■■

upon the fact that this route affords by far
the moat iAvourable gradients. Compared
TTith the line to Bute Inlet, the advantage
enjoyed in this particular by the " Fraaer
Kiver Route" stands out very promi-
nently. On the "Bute Inlet route," as
explamed by the Hon. Secretary of State
in this House and by the Premier in
another place, the great difficulty is that
when the line reaches within seventy
miles of the coast it is found to be at an
altitude of 3,460 feet, and necessarily
great difficulties are encountered in the
attempt to find the gradients, within so
comparatively short a distance, which
would enable the engineers to locate a
line passing from an altitude of 3,460 feet
to the sea level in the space of |seventy
miles. Hon. members will thua clearly
perceive the advantage in favour of the
♦' Eraser Eiver Kout^i," as to the grade of
the surveyed lines. The next point whioh
1 will urge in favour of the " Frazer River
Route" is that it pasaes through that
portion of the Frorinoe, the south-eastern
portion, which is blessed with the beat
climate. The winters throughout that
section are very short, never exoeediim
fovtr months in duration, seldom exceed-
ing three ; and the sdow fall is oompara-
tively light, This, of course, is a matter
of great moment, and one which can be
well appreciated by members of this
House, who, resident-) of Canada, are ac-
customed to the severities of the wiuter
of the country and its heavy falls of snow.
To the eastward of the Cascade Range in
British Columbia, in the section of coun-
try through which the "Frazer River
Route " runs, the snow^fall is so light and
insignificant that it is unnpoassary to
allude t3 it ; but in the gt/p which .,he
Frailer River has cut for itselJ through the
Cascade Range the snow fall is heavier.
However, hon. gentlemen may relieve
themselves of much a.pprehension on this
score, when I assure them that during
my residence in British Columbia I have
had occasion to travel the road running
through that pass during eveory month of
the year, that I never saw more or know
of more than four feet of snow on the
level in any place at any one time, and
that during many winters the road can
uninterruptedly be traversed by vehicles
on wl "^Is. Now the more northern
routes b.^rveyed through the country can-
not f.» • ^ moment be talked of inihis
"«*vy. i /ery one knowing anything of
a^Mubject knows that iai British Colum-
i)i*'lLj snow fall in the more northern
pt/UuQs of the Proviace is e^oMStye. On

this point thea i^n has the •>Frazer
River Route" an incalculable advantage.
Then again very importarc is the fact
that the "Fraier River Route" would
run through that part ot the Provinoe
which is decidedly the most valuable as
an agricultural and inhabitable country.
Coming down as I have already described
the valley of the North Thompson it
reaches Kamloop's, already a thriving lit-
tle place of some importance, •tnd the
centre of one of the best portic^ns of
British Columbia. The line thence passes
for a considerable distance through a.
country which is now chiefly used for
grazing purposes, but whioh is capable of
great developement in an agnoultur^l
way, till reaching the Frazer, it traveraeii
the pass cut by that river in the moun-
tains and over a country whioh is perhaipit.^
only valuable as aSbrding a meau» of
communication between tho interior of
the country and the coast. Lower down,
however, the valley of the Frazer opwm
out and for the last 80 zi 90 milus the
line would pass through what is p ob%bly
the most valaable agrioultural section of
British Columbia. Thus for the greater
part of its course the "Frazer River
route" passes through tbe«ountry whioh
is not onl^ now the most tk&okly settled
of all Eritish Columbia, but wmoh is the
most habitable of all the moinhmd of that
Provinoe, and whioh is most capable of
development ; but, in addition, the line
besides running through a desirable part
of the country would also drain of its pro-
ductions a still larger portion, and 1 have
no hesitation in stating my belief that if
the " Frazer River route " be adopted as
the western portion of the trans-contin-
ental line, it would be found that on com-
pletion that portion at all events of Che
Canadian Pacific Rtulway would be self
supporting. Such, hon. gdntlemen, would
not oe the case with the more northerly
routes where the country, owing to its
high northern latitude and the great
fdtitude of the m%jor part of it above the
luvel of the sea, is andesirable to a degree,
and never could be now or a oantury
henoe inhabited by any number of people
or made use of in an agricultural way.
With regard to the most northern route
of all, that to "Gardner's Channel," I
shall dismiss all consideration of it by
saying that I conceive it impossible thi^
any governing party could, when in pos-
session of all the facts which would enable
them to come to a oonoiusion on such an
important matter,ever drea'u for a momeiKt
(jI oarryiug the line tbrougb on tlMt

favom

havf

porta

the"

rardi

thec(

tunbii

onev

sorts I

half

make

Inlet

itsna

fromi

one w

thati

them

straitf

couve

the "Frazer
If advantage,
c is the faot
>ut« " would
ie Provinoe
\ valuable as
able oouotry.
kdy desoribeid
rhompsaa it
I thriving lit*
nco, <tnd the
portions of
ihence passes
» through a
fly used for
i« oapable of
agrioultur>*l
', it traverser
I the aioui\-
sh is perh'iipt.^
a meautt of
) interior of
jower dxivHf
i'razer )peD6
K) iuiJ<;:s the
i ia p: obably
1 seatioQ of
the greater
Eraser fiiver
iiutry whioh
okl^ settled
wwoh is the
ihmd of that
it capable of
m, the line
mirablo part

of its pro-

and 1 have
)eliof that if
adopted as
rans-contin-
hat on ooxn-
ents of the
uld be self
men, would

northerly
iwing to itB
the great

above the
foa degree,

a century
>r of people

tural way.
hern route
Ihannel." I
n of it by
Msible that
an in pos-
MiJd enable
msuoh an
ramomeni
ou that

r^r^tte. In a^ilitioa to all these points in
favour of the "Praaer River Route," I
havr now to draw attention to one of im-
portanee quite as great. I maintain that
the " Fraxer River RaTte" reaohes at Bur-
rard Inlet the most favourable harbour on
the coast of the mainland of British C!oI-
umbia, a harbour accessible at all seasons,
on every day of the year, to vessels of all
sorts and sizes, and capable of holding
half the entire marine of the world. To
make a comparison between it an<l Bute
Inlet would be futile. The latter is, as
its name implies^ a narrow inlet running
from tlie «ea some distance inland. Any
one who has looked at the map wHl see
thai it is difficult of access on account of
the multiplicity of islands whioh stud the
straits between the mainland mid Van-
couver Island, and with refarenca to this
point I will repeat an ooourreace whioh
took place during the past summer, and
the intent of words wl^oh were used by
one who should be an authority on such
matters. During the past summer, the
then Admiral on the Pacific station. Admi-
ral Cochrane, took a trip vvt ho Bute
Inlet in one of Her Majesty's gun-boats.
On that oooasion he was acoompauied by
the present liettteiv.ni-Oovemoroi' Brit-
ish Columbia^ Mr. 1>enoh, and such was
the difiSouity experienced in navigatin£
HO small a cmft as a gun-boat to the head
of Bute Inlet) tht>t the Admiral gave it as
his distinct opinion that it would be quite
impossible io plaoe the teiininus of a
great trana-oontinental mlway at such a
place. It will be evident to hon . members
that if a little^ gun-boat some 60 feet long,
or thereaboat, a boat built on purpose to
poke its way tSirough intricate and difB-
cult channels, should experience great
difficulty in reaching the head of " Bute
Inlet," (bat it would b3 out of the quea>.
tion to expect a big ooean steamer three
or four hundred feet long io get there at
all. So much foithe harbour reached by
the^Kraser River Route," as compared
with others ; and now I will repeot the
advantages of the more southern ^^ni^
niMff tho ** Frazer River lioute." I olvim
for it the advantages that :

Ist. It has greater direotneBS and shorir
neso than the other surveyed routes.

2nd. That it affords a perfect grade
throughout its oourse-

3rd. That it ntnu ♦urough a part of the
country blessed with a very short winter
and a light snow fall.

4th. That it passes through a part
eminently habitable Hod valuable.

5tb. Tiiaf. at hut it rervohes the best';
harbour en the ooaat of the mainUmd. .';

Now, hon. gentlemen, these that I have
mentioned i»re facta: facts, I maintain,
that are incapable of refutation by any
member of this House, whether repre-
senting British Columbia or other part of
the Domiiiion ; and, in addition, I wish to
draw attention to a^^other point of interest.
It is this, tbit if the line of the " Frazer
River Routd" were adojpted, the country
through whioh it runs is capable of sup-
plying, of growing all the articles of food
necessary for the support of those enga.ged
in the construction of the line, and that
thus British Columbia would reap eH posN
sible advantage from the expenditure of
so large a sum of money, and that the
oonstruotion of the line would do so
much to build up the Provinee that not
only it, but the Cominion, through it,
would be permanently benefitted. These
advantages would bo lost if the line
cLosen was one of the more northern.
The country over which those lines
pass is not fitted for agricultural
occupation and consequently aU supplies
would foe brought from the large marketa
of Portland and San Francisco to the
south of us. On the other hand it is
urged, and indeed the other night in an-
other place it was stated by the P.ijmier^
that the extra coat of building this line *
virtually rendered the adoption of thi;'''.
Frazer River route out of the question. Z
queation the fioot of the extra cost of thll
Hue, for I know that the Governinent are
not and never have be«n in pr ^session of
Bufiiciont engineering data with referenoo
to the "Frazer River Route" to be able to
compare fairly the cost of that line, with
that of others ; ^.m L say, besidea; in
a matter of tliia r ort, thai the primary cost
of oon^tniotion, although very itcportant,
is not by aoy means one whioh should
override other important conaiderationaj;
and that whdi^ic the question lies be-
tween the ftdvisibHity of building a line
ijOO miles in length, over a country, to say
the lojist of it, undesirable, and on the
other hwd of building it through a coun-
try favocrad by nature, eminently
suitable lor tubitation, and capablo of
sttppottitjfi: p. largo population, that^tiiip.
common seise alone would point out ih6
deairabilitj of the adoption of the latter
Line as th.A one which in course of v^/.*
struotion .vouid be of value to the coun-
try, and the only one which on compie-
tjon wo ild be tomid to \>& satisfactory.'
Perhajs 1 have now trespasBed too loafc
on thogo«.'d naiPUM and indulgence </lim

houBO, (cries of no, no) ; but I havo
thought it my duty at this period,wheu tha
time for the location of the great Canadian
Pacific Railway apparently approaches, to
bring the matter prominently before the
notice of the|IIous(u and of the Government,
and to impress upon the latter as serious-
ly as I could the grave responsibility that
lies upon Uiem, of giving every attention
to so important a matter, and of taking
care that in coming to a definite con-
clusion, they do not fall into the mistake
of adopting a policy penny wise but pound
foolish. (Hear, hear.)

Hon. Mr. CARRALL said he felt in-
debted to the hon. gentleman who had
just sat down for bringing this subject up
for discussion, as the location of the line
through British Columbia was of the very
first importance. He also desired to say
publicly that he disclaimed on the part
of British Columbia, that it was their desire
that the Government of the Dominion
should in the Blightest degree be in-
fluenced by any Provincial consideration
whatever in the selection of the western
terminus of the Pacific Railway ; but, at
the same time, they insisted that the se-
lection of route should be based only upon
the fullest and most reliable information
that they could possibly obtain. After a
great deal of consideration, and the ex-
perience of eleven years' residence in that
country, during which time he had tra-
velled over a great deal of it, and talked
with a great many persons on the Bubjeot,
he thought the Fraser River route oftered
more advantages, although possibly at
some greater cost, than any other route
for the welfare of the Dominion at large.
For his own part, he would prefer that the
railroad should go to Bute Inlet, but it
would be necessary, if that route were
adopted, to establish a steam ferry at that

Eoint, and carry the railroad over the
iland of Vancouver to Esquimalt, which
was a most inviting and commodious har-
bour. But Bute Inlet was out of the
question, as far as a harbour was concern-
ed. He did not ask for the construction
of the transcontinental railway befoie the
Government had made all the surveys, or
before they were satisfied that they had
found the very best route. He ventured
to state that no person in British Colum-
bia was so exacting or so untrue to the
interests of the Dominion, as to ask the
Uovenunent to put a pick in the ground
until they were satisfied with the location
of the line. He did not think any of Uic
northern routes should be adopted. Prof.
Ifaooun gave a high character to the

Peace River diBtriot east of the Bocky
Mountains, but on the west side the coun-
try was a barren wilderness to the Pacific
coast, and it could never be available for
anything from an agr.' " cural point of
view. The Fraser River route would pass
through the most valuable portions of the
interior valleys of British Columbia. He
was strongly in favour of that route him-
self, and he would read what another gen-
tleman, whose name he was not authorized
to give, had compiled from official souroea
on this question of route : —

From the summit of the Yellowhead
Pass eastward, the line is common to all
those surveyed westward — that is to say
through British Columbia — the summit of
the Pass being the boundary of that Pro*
vince, the distances are therefore given
from that Point.

1. The Southern Group. — The only
line of this group now considered is that
Ota the Thompson and Fraser Rivers, to
Burrard Inlet, with extension to English
Bay, for a proper terminus, the. other
lines oia the Coguihalla to Fort Hope
and to Howe Sound, are So to 40 milea
shorter, but the grades are bad.
Length of line from Yellowhead

Pass to Burrard Inlet .471 miles.

Extension to English Bay 5 miles, 476 "
Thence by sea to Esquimalt, say, 85 "

Total....« 561

The cost of constructing this line would
be several millions of doUars in excess of
any other line surveyed.

East of the Cascade Mountains. — It
opens no new country. The lands it
touches on are principally grazing lands,
with a small proportion of agricultural
lands, mostly [requiring irrigation. It is
estimated that the produce of the whole
District (Cash Creek to Hhe Okanagau),
would be increased ten«fold by r&Uway
communication, but the inhabitants nof^
are probably considerably under 500, and
if they were increased in proportion, they
would bo under 5,0(X). The line would
not touch the mineral districts at all, and
the only incroasftd facilities of reaching
those would be by landing passengers and
freight by railway at Spence's bridge.

West of the Cascade Mountains.— The
lands in the Valley of the Fraser are all
within reach of any part of the Pacific
Coast by navigable tide-waters. The bulk
of these lands are below New West-
minster, while the railway would leave the
Fraser Valley to cross to Burrard Inlet
above that point, so that a railway is not
necessary for the settlement of thei^e

'the Booky
de the ooun-
> the Pacific ;
ivailable for
ral point of
) would pass
rtiona of tbe
umbiA. He
route him-
another gen-
t authorized
ioial souroea

Yellowhead
mmon to all,
lat is to say ,
le summit of
of that Pru"
refore given

-The only

lered is that
er Bivers, to
1 to English
I, the. other
Fort Hope
) to40milea
»ad.
Bad

471 miles. :

leB, 476 "
say, 85

«f

.... 561

lis line would

1 in exoea« of

ountains. — It
he lands it
(razing lands,
agricultural
Ration. It is
of the whole
> Okanagan),
i by railway
abitants now
der 500, and
portion, they
e line would
its at all, and .
9 of reachiU;

issengers an<
s bridge,
ntains.— The
l*>aser are all
)f the l^iiio
•8. The bulk
New West-
uld leaye the
iurrard Inlet
ailway is not
•nt of tbeip*

Ifmdi, or the iaxportation of their pro-
duce.

2. The Central Group .-^The beat of
those lines is that from the Yellow-
hiead Fan via Tetejaune Cache and
down to IFortGeorge, thence by the
Talleys of the Stewart, ChiUcoh, Blaok-
water, Nazco, Chicotin and Homalthco
valleyB to Bute Inlet, in all of which
there are rich agricultural lands of con-
siderable extent ; some of them are sur-
rounded by an extent of grazing lands
scarcely inferior to those of the southern
Districts of the ProTince.

This line sweeps round the northern
and eastern flank of the Cariboo mining
range; s'^d, by the Giaoome Portage,
would ofiPer easy access to the Omineca or
Peace Eiver Mloing District—its length is
550 miles.

But any line would be incomplete if its
terminus were not capable of connection
(without transhipment of freight) with
Vanoourer Island in all seasons and all
weaiher ; and t<henoe with some Port fa-
vourably situated for Asiatic commerce.
To construct a railway down the shore of
Bute Inlet, and bridge the aereral chan-
nels between the mainland and Vanx
coaver Island, would cost enormously.
But for the present, it is thought steam-
boats carrying trains on board — as at De-
troit and Sarnia — could \e used between
Waddington Haibour at the head of Bute
Inlet, to Mary's Bay on Vancouver Island
(near Seymour Narrowu) a distance of
about seventy-miles. This is the only
line by which a steam ferry-boat, carrying
trains on board, is practicable — as the
channels are not disturbed by storms,
being surrounded by high lands. This is
near tLt> centre of Vancouver Island and
the richest part of British Columbia both
for agriculture and minerals —coal and
iron lying side by aide.

But then for Asiatic commerce it would
be necessary to construct the railway on
Vancouver Island from Seymour Narrows
to Stamp Harbour on the Albemi Canal,
Barclay Souud, or to Esquimalt. The
line to the former would stand thus : —

UILBS.

Yellowhead Pass to Wadding-
ton Harbour 550— raiL

StMm ferry to Vancouver
Island 75 -water.

KailwaytoStaiap Harbour, say, 82— raU.

Totia 707

Or Yellowhead Pass to Wad- '"•''-•

dington Harbour ;550— Mfll: '

Steam ferry to Vancouver .
I«land 75— wateri

Thence by rail to Deep Bay-
common to both 57— raiL >

Thence to Nanaimo, say.... 46— "

Thence to Esquiujualt 67 — "

Total 795

Northern Group. — The only line at
present surveyed throughout is th»tto
Eams-quot Bay, Dean Inlet— length 5^4
miles. This line, besides being the
shortest, would probably cost less *d
construct— mile for mile — tlum any of the
other lines. It is also 200 to 300 miles
nearer to Japan and China (by the direct
large circle sailing) than from Stamp
Harbour, and fully 300 miles nearer than
from Esquimalt. But that applies
only to the homeward voyage, as .
on account of the currents, a
southern course is taken outwan} to
Japan and China, and a northern course
homeward from these places. Herewith
is a chart of the currents and the Ihie of
route from San Francisco to CLina and
return laid down. From this you will see
that the so-called Japan current sets away
from the coast of that country eastwardi
its northern edge washing the long group
of Aleutian islands, and its southern eflge
by the still-water of the Sargassa sert. The
northern part of the current strikes full
upon Queen Charlotte and Vancouver
Islands ; and if you were to place a thread
on the globe— one eiid on the coast of
Japan, and continuing the thread on a
stnight line as close to the Aleutian
islands as practicable, and producing the
same, still in a straight line—you will .
find it strikes near the southern part of'
Vancouver Island, and full in the cur-
rent. The current then defiects to the
south till it touches the northern ed^ of
the Equatorial stream, which fiows west-
ward, then sweeps rouud northward to
the coast of China and Japan, making an
oblong oval, so that steamers from San
Frauoisco make the outward voyage by
the southern rente, touching at Hunalula,
and on their return take the corthem
route, hugging the Aleutian Islauda and
the coast of Vancouver Island. Therefore
the northern terminus for the Canadian
Pacific Railway is chiefly favourable as
shortening the route from China, but
unfavourable as lengthening the voyage
to China aud Japan, for no steamers, much
1^8 sailing vessels, will go against the'

onrrent. The northMn linei^ OB»np
up les0 good country. itb»Q the oeniE»L

Hod. Mr. CORNWALL oontended that
tke line from, Fort G«orge to Bute Inlet
would pass through a country the altitude
of wfaioh was so great th&t it was not good
for agrioultuve.

Hon. Mr. SGOTT asked if Waddington
Harbour was not available for ressels by
sailing nor^^west iihrough Queen Char-
lotte Straits.

lion. Mr. CORNWALL said the navi-
gation there must be intricate, as the
obannel was thiokly studded with islands.
In the paper read by his hon. friend it
was mentioned that the cost of the
fVaser Biver Route would be several
iniUions of dollars more than Bute Inlet ;
but that authority did not calculate the
expense of carrying the line from Bute
Inlet down to Esquimslt.

Hon. Mr. CABRALL said the Govem-
xnont of the day were not in a position to
state the comparative sost of the
f'rasev River route as compareo' with
others, as no proper survey of that route
had ever been made. As to the statement
made by his hon. friend about the depth
of snow, he had never heard of four feet
of snow falling in one storm in any part of
British Columbia ; he had never seen an
much as four feet of snow on the grouncl
in that Province, and the road would nod
require snow sheds at any poiut, as tha
Union Pacific did. He was glad an hon.
friend in the other House had brought up
tbis question of anothor survey of the
Eraser River route, and he hoped the
Government would see Ut to saake it be-
fore adopting any other.

Hon. Mr. MACDONALD (Victoria)—
The House must be si^j;: and tired of the
Pacific Railway questlb.' tbis session. Hon.
gentlemen have been told about routes,
rocksisnowdrifts, and canons, and I'll ven-
ture to 8817 that they are nat a bit wiser than
they were before. I think it would be
most unbecoming were I to stand up and
contradict every word said by the hon.

fentleman from Asherift; bow could the
[ouse firm an opinion if we both
differed, hut I do not intend expressing
an opinion upon any route, because I
think it is a matter which can only be
decided by the Government and the
engneers. I am willing for my part to
leave it to the scientific men who ba''e
been over the country.

Hon. Mr. CORNWALL interrupted,
Bs^ying the hon. guntieiuan has never
bMo over the couo&y. He knows noth-

kig aboat it, and h&sno bnainaMto inalo»-
these remarks.

Hon. Mr. MACDONALD— I haTO •
right to make these remarks, And I
contend that it is neither wise n((s i
judicious to bring forward i)u»^
question now. The hou. gentleman has
lost his temper, and this bears me out in
saying that the House could not arrive at
any intelligent conclusion in this matt«r,
not even if they had the whole of tiie
people of British Columbia before them,
llie hoQ. gentleman forgot to mention
that the most fertile lanaa on the Fraeer
are made accessible by the Fraaer River
running through them, and require no
railway. He also forgot to mention that
there are large tracts of fertile land from
Bute up by Chilcotin toW(«rds Fort
George, which require opening np. When
Bute Inlet was first thought of by Mr.
Waddmgton, it w&s as a harbour oom-
plete in itself without reference t^^-
Esquimalt. The hon. gentleman hMf)
said that Burrard Inlet is the best harbour/
in the Province. (Mr. (Jornwftll'^I saii,,
on the mainland.) Mr, Macdonald— Alrr v
though the hon. gentleman said intbift'i'
Ptovinoe, I accept the ezpUnaticni. I
repeat again that I am quite wilUng to
leave this matter to tlM Government and
the engineers, %s . t^y oi# jpw> ,<lf>»4« .
thematter. .,■ ,,-..,. a, o -.myvim ni^-o^

Hon. Mr. CORNWALL coaisidered «b«'
hon. gentleman had no right to get up in'
his place and make such a statement
that the opinions oilered were sectional.
The hon. gentleman had never been on
the mainland in his life, except when he
bad visited New Westminster.

Hon. Mr. MACDONALD said it only ii
lustrated the force of what he had stated.
The hon. gentleman had forgotten that
there were other tracts of fertile country
in British Colimibia than on the Fraaer.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said he did not
think the hon, gentleman who bad spoken
b>st had done justice to the hon. gentle-
man who had introduced this subject to
the notice of the House. The hon. gen<
tleman had guarded himself against ad-
vocating any one route. He had told the
House that he had no' engineering know-
ledge of the Eraser River route, but he
had certainly given information which, for
his part, ho considered very valuable, and
it had given him a much clearer idea of
the question than he ever had before. It
was one thing to read engineer's reports,
and another to have a Oivi voce desorip-
tiion of the oountxy, its ebaraoter,reeouroeB

mis»

idid ocpaoUy la the fatttr«. tt was a
Bpeeoh that had given him more informa-
tum than any other on this subject. He
certainly thought that as far as this dis-
cussion had gone, it had given to the
H'< !r-i« clear impression of the several
re .. and hon. gentlemen would be dis-

EC ed to believe that the arguments of
is hon. friends were very cogent reasons
in favonr of the Fraser River route.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said he thought the
disousaion they bad heard would satisfy
the House that there were a great many
routes in British Cohunbia that were open
to discussion, as to which they should
ultimately accept in the interest of the
Dominion. The hon. gentleman (Mr.
Cornwall) had spoken with the greatest
possible favour of the route by the Fraaer
Elver. The hon. gentleman spoke from
this stand-point in a broad and general
sense, but it wotdd be remembered that
the hon. gentleman desired that the line
ahould pau in the vicinity of his own
property.

Bixu Mr. CORNWALL disclaimed any
sectional motives in advocating a survey
of the Eraser River route.

Hon. Mr. 8C0TT said he did not tax
the hon . gentleman with any such motive,
but it waa only human natiu« that an
hon. gentleman in advocating aline which
passed hia own residence, must speak of
it with some partiality. The hon. gentle-
man had selected that portion of British
Columbia, believing it to be the best for
business and agricultural purposes, and
naturally he would also select it as the
best for railway purp<>ies. The remarks
they had Just heara,l4Kl proved that this
whole question w'v. surrounded with a
multiplicity of embarrassments, that the
engineering difficulties were much greater
thui the people were disposed to imag
ine. Hon. gentlemen who were inclined
to censure tue Government for not com-
mencing the expenditure of money in
British Columbia, wolild now see it would
have been very unwise, when even the
members from British Columbia were
not in harmony on the seleotion of the
route in that Frovinoe. The hon. gentle-
man bad quoted from the report of the
Chief Engineer of 1874, but if he had
read further he would have given some
more valuable information respectiug the
impracticability of that route; that the
work would consist of a large uuaount of
bridging over deep ravines; several miles
of proleotion works along uie river would
be required, and th« proportion of exces-
sively heavj woric «zteaaedOY«r 57 milea,

and incliided 7 to 8 milea of tahniellMig.
He did not know the chief engineer had
obtained any further information, but he
presumed he had. He found in the
rough estimate of the cost of that route
it was put down at thirty-three millions
of dollars. The number of routes sur-
veyed or partly surveyed was three,
and they might be divided into
the Northern, Central and Souths
em ; the latter terminated at Bute Inlet,
the Central terminated at Dean Channel,
and the lattar terminated at Gardener
ChanneL Tete Jeaime Cache was the
point at which all the different roads con-
verged. From that point west the road
waa located to Fort George, there crossing
the Fraser River, and then running down
to what was ori^nally known as route No.
4 terminating at Bute Inlet. This was
the favourite route, and it passed through
a country somewhat superior in its capa-
city fw settlement. Bute Inlet had been
spoken of probably before any question of
engineering difficulties had arisen. It
had generally been looked upon as a
very desinble harbour and he was not
aware until hearing tiiis debate, that any
difficulty would anse in obtainLog a har-
bour on the coast line at that point Hbe
distance and surveys were all traced out
to the coast line ; it was not intended to
stop at the extreme inland point as it was
estimated that the line would at least go
down to deep water. The route by No.
2 would be as his hon. friend would
observe 513 miles, while the distance to
Bute Inlet would be 550 milea. The cost,
however, in the rough estimate of ex-
penses that had been formed by
the engineers, of that particular
route, was placed at twenty
eight millions of dollars, as compared With
^irty-three millions of dollars by route
No. 2 by the Fraser River to fiurrard
Inlet.

Hon. Mr. CORNWALL said the cost of
Bute Inlet route had not been calculated
down to deep water, but only to the head
of the Inlet.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT said there were other
lines north, which the engineers had
condemned. The Government would be
guided in the selection by the character
of the country, its soil, climate, and
general advantages. In the winter there . —yy —
was very little snow along the Bute Inle t n'(0-f,iiA4v
route^nd it was stated as a positive fact
that horses and cattle remained out all
winter.

Hon. Mr. CORNWALL said the hon.
geutlemaa must bo ignonmt of tb« ftot

^»o

tiwi A irary few xmlan . further north, the

grbundwas frozen to the depth c' thirty

,ieet, and itnever thawed out ; the miner?

had to build fires on the ground in order

,to work it

Hon. Mr, SCOrr «aid that was not
the information he had received, but all
these questions had to be decided before
the (iovemmjnt would be justified in
selecting a route. lie would announce
that the telegraph contractor, who was
now at Ottawa, had that morning re-
ceived a through telegraphic despatch
from Battle River, via Selkirk, within two

hundred miles of Fort Edmonton. This
would bear out the statement he had
zxiad9 a few days previou& as to the pro-
gress of tJiat work.

Hon. Mr. COBNWALL said any hon.
gentleman who knew British Columbia,
would know that the statement of the
Secretary of State that horses and cattle
were.able to remain out during the winter
on the northern route, could not be
correct He did net think there ever was
such a thing as a horse or a cow within
two hundred miles of the place. /. £,

J • ^ ^ > - f ■

LEGISLATIVE LIBRARY.

British Columbia.

ij ika .

^nvi.-o-n