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 THE 
 
 I 
 
 - LICENSING AUTHOEITY. 
 
 BY 
 
 G. W. HASTINGS, ESQ., M.P. 
 
 WITH FACTS IN REGARD TO 
 
 f CANADIAN LICENSING LEGISLATION. 
 
 LONDON: SIMPKIN, MARSHALL, & CO. 
 MANCHESTEH: A. IRELAND & CO. 
 UNITED KINGDOM ALLIANCE, 44, JOHN DALTON STREET. 
 
 1882. 
 
«♦ 
 
 in 
 
 '■'^- 
 
 1 
 
THE LICENSING AUTHORITY: 
 
 An AcMreos delivered as Chairman of a Local Option Con- 
 Mence for Birmingham, and the Counties of Warwich 
 Worcester, Stafford, and Salop, held in the lanje TlZ^^ 
 A. ^W /n«i,^W., Birmingham, on February 2nd, 
 18S2, by G. W. Hastings, Esq., M.P. 
 
 )« 
 
 in 
 
 The Chairman said: Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you will 
 permit me at this early stage of the proceedings to say a few 
 words, not perhaps so much upon the general object of tne meetir - 
 as upon the reasons which have induced me to accede to the 
 flattering request that was made to me to take the chair to-day 
 and as to the opinions I entertain upon some portions of the vast 
 question that lies before you. (Applause.) There are two very 
 good reasons why I should be ready, at any time and in any place 
 but most of all in a place bordering the county which I have the 
 honour to represent in Parliament, to take part in a meeting on 
 the licensing question. The first of those reasons is that it has 
 
 in thZi rT w ' ^""^ "'"^^ ^'^'' '' exercise judicial functions 
 m the county of Worcester. That I have done now for years, not 
 only as the chairman of my own division of the county, and there- 
 ore primarily responsible in that division for ths mode in which 
 the licensing laws are carried into effect, but also as one of the 
 chairmen of Quarter Sessions, which, as I grieve to say, quarter 
 after quarter have to deal with a large amount of indictable crime 
 cominited within the borders of the county. I have been com- 
 pelled to feel during those years that the miserable habits of 
 intemperance indulged in by so many in this country are not onlv 
 one of the most fertile sources-for I am convinced that that would 
 
be an inadequate expression— but the most fertile source of crime 
 tluoughout the country. (Applause.) It has fallen to my lot both 
 as chairman, as I have already said, in my own division, and also 
 not infreiiuently as chairman of the County Licensing Committee, 
 te be compelled to take into consideration the question whether 
 any further facilities should be given for indulgence in habits pro- 
 ductive of so much crime and social misery. I am very glad to 
 say that, so far as my own division is concerned, I have never yet 
 put my name to any new licence — (loud applause) ; — and I believe 
 those justices of the county who have now, for not a few years, 
 acted with me on the County Licensing Committee are well aware 
 that my voice— I don't say more strongly than theirs, because it 
 could not be stronger than that of the majority of the justices who 
 sit upon that committee— has always been raised against any 
 further extension of the facilities for providing intoxicating drinks 
 for the people. (Cheers.) For that reason alone, and if I only 
 occupied that position, I should have felt it my duty to accede to 
 the request made to me to take the chair at this r inference to-day. 
 But there is another still more cogent reason that weighs upon 
 my mind. No man, I think, ought ever to take any public step 
 unless he is willing to join in carrying out his vote or action to its 
 legitimate conclusion. (Hear, hear.) In the session of Parliament 
 of 1880 I voted for the motion made by Sir Wilfrid Lawson— 
 (applause) — in favour of giving a Local Option to all local itic in, 
 the country upon this question; and when it was moved in the 
 House of Commons in the session of 1881 that legislative action 
 ought to be taken upon the resolution which had been passed in 
 1880, I again voted for that motion. Now I will venture to say 
 of myself, if you will permit me to do so, that, whatever my many 
 other shortcomings may be, I would never give a vote in Parlia- 
 ment for any measure upon merely abstract grounds. I would 
 never vote for any bare principle unless I believed that it was 
 right and expedient to carry that principle into action. (Applause.) 
 And having voted in the first place that it was desirable that the 
 power of Local Option should be given to the inhabitants of the 
 various localities and districts, urban or rural, in this England of 
 ours, and having further voted that it was desirable to give legis- 
 lative action to that principle, I felt doubly bound to come here 
 
of crime 
 lot both 
 and also 
 inmittee, 
 whether 
 bits pro- 
 ! glad to 
 lever yot 
 I believe 
 ;\v veurs, 
 ell awure 
 ecause it 
 tices who 
 dnst any 
 12: drinks 
 if I only 
 accede to 
 ce to-day. 
 g\\9, upon 
 iblic step 
 ion to its 
 ^rliament 
 Lawson — 
 ^alitic in 
 3d in the 
 ve action 
 passed in 
 ire to say 
 my many 
 in Parlia- 
 I would 
 lat it was 
 Applause.) 
 3 that the 
 Oits of the 
 ilngland of 
 give legis- 
 coiBC here 
 
 
 to-d!.y to state what my opinions are upon the measure— to state 
 that I for one neither rogrot the vote that I gave, nor mean to 
 hold back my hand from carrying that vote into practical opera- 
 tion. (Applause.) Now, ladies and gentlemen, you all know— 
 for every per.son iu England knows, and never knew better than 
 at the present time— that there is vast opposition made to every 
 great social change, or any great legislative change that is pro- 
 posed in Parliament, and we must necessarily expect that there 
 will be a stout opposition to carrying that resolution of the House 
 into practical force. One of the objections undoubtedly will be 
 this : that it is a novel principle to entrust to the hands of the 
 people any control over the licensing laws. In one sense of the 
 word that is true : in another and a broader sense of the word it 
 is not true. A statesman who— whatever opinions may be enter- 
 tained, and they are very diverse and keen, upon his policy— at 
 any rate had the great merit of being able thoroughly to under- 
 stand and accurately to gauge the drift of popular opinion in this 
 country— I mean the late Lord Beaconsfield— said in the House of 
 Commons more than a quarter of a century ago that the whole 
 current of modern legislation in England sets iu favour of a return 
 to our pncient Saxon institutions, (hoar, hear.) There was nothing 
 in my opinion ever said that was more true. Our judicial pro^ 
 ceedings have come back, through c-- county courts, to the ancient 
 Saxon custom, and I am much mistaken if more than a very few 
 years pass, perhaps not more than one year will pass, before the 
 old Saxon institution, which gave to the inhabitants of a county 
 the power, even in a democratic form, of moulding their own legis- 
 lation and carrying out their own administration, is not restored 
 to the people. (Applause.) In the same way, and on the same 
 principle, it would only be a genuine return to our old Saxon 
 institutions which placed everythin; \a the hands of the people, 
 which trusted the people in ail respects, and believed that the 
 people, with whatever mishaps and it may be errors upon the 
 road, would ultimately, in every phase of their social policy, 
 arrive at what was best for themselves— if the same trust was 
 placed in them in regard to the licensing laws of the country. 
 (Applause.) Well, now, you may very naturally ask me why 
 It IS that, having been myself for many years entrusted with 
 
< 
 
 k 
 
 the administration of tho licensing laws, I for one can wish 
 any change in the system. I will answer that question fairly 
 and frankly. I do not know and I cannot know in what way 
 the licensing laws are carried out throughout the kingdom 
 generally— that is, I cannot know with any accuracy, but "l do 
 know with entire accuracy how they are carried out in my own 
 county, and certainly it is not because I think they have been 
 mal-administered, not because I think they have been even weakly 
 administered in the county of Worcester that I desire to see any 
 change in the system. On the contrary, I firmly believe that no 
 authority in who.se hands the licensing system could be placed 
 would at the present time carry it out with more integrity and 
 more ability, witli a more earnest desire to effect the good of those 
 around them, than it is now carried out by the magistracy of the 
 county of Worcester. That is my own honest belief, based on a 
 considerable experience and extensive knowledge. But what I 
 have felt for a long time, and what I say now is this, that it is 
 not enough for men that they should have ability and integrity 
 and a desire or even resolve to do all that is right in the^dis- 
 charge of their functions. It often happens that with all these 
 excellent qualifications they, to some extent, fail, because they 
 have not behind them that popular support which is absolutely 
 necessary in carrying out many branches of public work. And 
 that is just what I feel, and have felt for years with regard to our 
 licensing system. (Hear, hear.) My friend here who sits at my 
 right— my old and highly-valued friend Mr. Steinthal, of 
 Manchester— knows well that at a meeting of the Social Science 
 Association that was held at Manchester in 1879, that is two 
 years and nearly a half ago, and before I entered the House 
 of Commons, and therefore before I had committed myself to 
 any parliamentary pledges on the subject, I expressed publicly 
 from the chair of one of the sections of that association my 
 opinion, very much on the same grounds as I have just stated, 
 that the time had arrived when the licensing authority ought to' 
 be transferred from the hands of the magistrates to the hands of 
 some body or other elected by the ratepayers. (Applause.) I do 
 not need to illustrate what I have said on the matter by what 
 is perhaps a minor detail though an important one in the 
 
can wish 
 tion fairly 
 wiiat way 
 
 kin<fc)oin 
 
 but 1 ilo 
 in my own 
 have been 
 ,^en weakly 
 to see any 
 ve that no 
 be placed 
 egrity and 
 )d of those 
 acy of the 
 >ased on a 
 it what I 
 that it ia 
 
 integrity 
 I the dis- 
 
 all these 
 luse they 
 ibsolutely 
 rk. And 
 -rd to our 
 ts at my 
 □thai, of 
 1 Science 
 ».t is two 
 le House 
 nyself to 
 
 publicly 
 
 ation my 
 
 it stated, 
 
 ought to 
 
 hands of 
 
 e.) I do 
 
 by what 
 e in the 
 
 aJmu,,, ,at,„„ „f the licensing laws. TI,o Cmty Li^ndn. 
 C„m„„»..o wind, „., you know i, a diftorent body a°d 
 po.«»e., ,1,«„„„, fnnction, from the magi,,.racy in pet°y 
 « ».ons a committee, I may ,ay, that was "originally breS 
 
 beCrs°""^'° " -™">-"^'- •>/ 'i.e ConnVi 
 
 01 tbe Secial Science Assoe.ation, a recommendation conveyed 
 V myself at tl,e time to Mr. Secretary Brace when be had 
 
 m™::t":;i ";,'" p-p-'-r""" »-'y committee ;':;!: 
 
 amongst otl e,s 1,„ power: that is the power and the Jntv of 
 .1 elanng what districts in the county are of dense popu a«on 
 wh,ch camea with it the result of determining whether or ^1'°: 
 ,cer,sed bouse. ,„ any district may be open for an hour ,0 r 
 n g t We have bad numerous applications from difterent parts 
 o the county to declare that certain districts possess densUv 
 of pop„ at,.,„. Son,e of these applications we have granted manv 
 ..ore, I tbmk, we have refused. But I have alwaysLt „ d'ecuZ 
 rt quest,on-aud I have frequently sat in the clLr of the Co™ y 
 
 ^.Z-^iXZyj'' ''"'" " "'"oritatively-tbatlw s : 
 this great diftculty : there is no accurate test of what density of 
 population means. The Act of Parliament has left us to form o,°r 
 own opinion upon the question : •• What is density of popuSn " 
 Some people might say that it is only where a large and lonl 
 
 . leTs: "'Trr' r"^^ ™°^ '"""'-"^ ofVpuiatmi 
 
 ^^Z.7rr *"*'' '"'"■'' "'^ ^"J-'l"" i' ".^••."3 every 
 
 place w uch has not strictly a rural character; and between tbosi 
 
 two extremes it ,s probable that there are many ditferent and 
 
 varied opinions. Now, the real question that onglt to be put n 
 
 his matter, the real tost of the need for keeping houses open an 
 
 Lour longer than they are kept open in other places 1,'^this 
 
 whether ,t is desired by the population of the district. (Appla ,se i 
 
 But upon that point we (the County Licensing Comm ttee) Ze 
 
 veiy imperfect means of forming any conclusL. l7TteZl 
 
 get memorials upon one side and upon the other, but cenerallv 
 
 peahng they atrord an exceedingly imperfect test of what the 
 
 real opinion of the population of the district may be Now I 
 
 .nerely give that to you as an illustration, as only one illustration 
 
 out several that I could give of what the weakness of the 
 
 ...agistracy m the present licensing system is. It is not a weak- 
 
8 
 
 Ki 
 
 1 
 
 nc-ss of tlicir own ; it is n weakness thot necessarily attaches to 
 tho lulininiHtmtioii of the licensing laws in their present form. It 
 IS that they are not able to arrive at any accurate opinion of what, 
 as I r-y, is the real need an-l real tost in tho matter, and thoy have 
 not at their hacks that popula" judgment whicli wouhl enable them 
 to say without hesitation and with moral force "thus" and "thus" 
 the people of the locality who are the real judges hold as their 
 opinion upon this (piestion. (Loud applause.) That is speaking 
 broadly tho ground upon which I havo long held and hold now 
 that our licensii.g lasv.s, or rather the authority over our liconsin.' 
 laws, ought to be administered by a body which has been chosen 
 by the people at large, which therefore know.s what i o wants and 
 lews of the people at large are, and which will carry their wishes, 
 as all elected bodies must necessarily do, into effect. (<Vpplause.) 
 Now, ladies and gentlemen, supposing that we arrive at that con- 
 clusion on this portion— and I told you that I was only <roincr to 
 speak on one portion-of the great question before us-su"ppo3ncr 
 we arrive at the conclusion that the local authority in licensin" 
 matters ought to be an elective body, there then, no doubt, comes 
 a very difficult question— the question in what way and on what 
 principle that elected body ought to be constituted ? I quite 
 admit that Parliament has a difficult programme before it when it 
 approaches the subject, and I will tell you that the common talk 
 in the House of Commons at the tine when these Local Option 
 resolutions have been before it has been much to this etiect: 
 "This is all very well, and we don't disapprove of the principle, 
 but it is quite impracticable ; there is no way of carrying it out " 
 I should be sorry, indeed, if this conference were held h^re to-day 
 and Its proceedings or anything that fell from the lip.s of yuur 
 chairman were to give an impression to the public at large that it 
 IS impracticable to carry out that measure, or that we are not 
 prepared to point out— not as to minute details, but at any rate 
 on some broad plan— how it could be carried out. I, for one am 
 prepared to say-not at all asking you to agree with me, for 1 
 quite believe that there may be many opinions upon a complex 
 question of this nature which may be most worthy of considera- 
 tion, but I simply give it to you as my opinion as to what the best 
 mode would be in constituting the elective authority of the kind 
 
9 
 
 f attaches to 
 )nt form. It 
 nion of what, 
 ,nd thoy have 
 enable them 
 'and "thus" 
 lohl as their 
 
 is spoakinjif 
 nd hold now 
 •ur licensint' 
 been chosen 
 e wants and 
 their wishes, 
 (applause.) 
 at that con- 
 nly goinjT to 
 —supposing 
 in licensinsr 
 )ubt, comes 
 nd on what 
 ? I quite 
 ? it when it 
 mmon talk 
 ical Option 
 this eti'ect: 
 e principle, 
 tig it out." 
 lere to-day 
 ps of your 
 -rge that it 
 ve are not 
 -t any rate 
 or one, am 
 
 nie, for I 
 a complex 
 considera- 
 it the best 
 r the kind 
 
 to which I have alln.lcd. Now, there is one principle on which I 
 should go if 1 ha.l cliurge of any l-gislativo measuio on tho matter, 
 and to wtuoh I should resolutely a.ll...re, and that is, that I should 
 not hand over the licensing authority to any exi. '..g body or to 
 any elected body which, was charged with other administrative 
 functions. (Loml applause.) I will tell you why I tiiink so. It 
 IS not that existing bodies of whatever nature and with whatever 
 functions they may have been trusted would do ofher than 
 approach the licensing question with ability and with int.grity, 
 and with the same desire to promote the good of the people as^I 
 believe the present licensing authority— the magistrates— have at 
 het... It is not that, but it is, I think, that the addition of a 
 hcensing authority to the functions either of existing bodies, such 
 as town councils for instance— or such as county councils if they are 
 called into existence— would materially interfere with the exercise 
 of their ordinary powers. I think so for this reason— a public 
 body, an elected body, is not only responsible to the people, but it 
 must necessarily, from the very nature of its constitution, desire 
 al> /e all things to carry out what its constituents tell it to do. 
 Now if you had, we will say, a town council elected on the question 
 01 licensing, I fear that one of two things would happen with 
 regard to its composition. Either it would be composed of persona 
 who did not care so much about the licensing question as they 
 would do about the other many important duties which a town 
 council has to carry out. in which case the licensing question 
 would run some risk of being neglected ; or on the other hand it 
 would be composed of persons who had been elected chiefly, or 
 perhaps in many cases solely, on the ground of their opinions on 
 the licensing question, and then, however excellent they might be 
 in that respect, thoy might not be the proper men— they might 
 not be experienced or well-(iualified men— to carry out their other 
 (luties. The licensing (^u.^stion, as you well know, as your atten- 
 dance in this theatre to-day proves, is one that engrosses great 
 attention, and is the subject of very zealous opinion ; and my 
 bahef is this, that any local body entrusted with the power, and 
 elected for the purpose, of carrying out the vieM;- of toe late- 
 piyers upon that question, should be one elected for that purpose 
 only, and pledged to discharge the duty according to the desire of 
 
^\ 
 
 ri 
 
 10 
 
 its constituents, whatever that desire may be. I not only expect, 
 but I feel quite sure, that elected licensinc. bodies would represent 
 in different parts of the country very different views, and they 
 would carry out the laws in a very various manner, and so far 
 from thinking that an evil I believe it would be a good ^Hear 
 hear.) I believe that, like every other exercise of the popular' 
 will It wou d have a powerful effect in educating the whole body 
 of the people on this question. Men would have to think and to 
 reason and to work out their views upon the subject in a way 
 with regard to a large portion of the population, they had neve-^ 
 done before, and will never do until it is brought home to them 
 
 on m '",T "P^^: ^'- ^ ^"^' "° ^°^^* tb^t -« *™e went 
 on, and the different plans and different modes of administration 
 
 carried out by the various licensing bodies were brought into opera- 
 tion and formed the result of a common experience, that gradually 
 ana slowly, but therefore surely, the opinion of the country would 
 gravitate more and more towards the views that have been enter- 
 ained at first by a small section of the people, now by a much larger 
 and more powerful section, in favour of restriction. (Applause.) 
 rhere IS only one word more that I desire to say with respect to the 
 formation of any new licensing bodies. I hope that whatever is 
 done they will be constituted on wide areas. (Hear, hear) I 
 have had considerable exper:;.ce in local administration, and 
 year by year I have more and more come to the conclusion that 
 the wider the arP. of election the more independent and, generally 
 speaking, the more wise is the body elected. (Applause.) Small 
 areas, like some small inland lakes, are subject to violent gusts of 
 opinion-they are swept hither and thither, very often in opposite 
 d rections from time to time, as every eddy of thought happens to 
 trike them-(applause)-but larger areas have°a diversity of 
 interest and opinion which usually keeps them pretty steady and 
 I believe, that i you take for instance the county ofVorces';:er, of 
 which I naturally speak, knowing it so well-no area less than 
 that of the county ought to be taken for the formation of an 
 elected licensing board. I believe that, if the inhabitants of that 
 county, J the ratepayers at large had the power and the oppor- 
 tunity of electing a board for the purpose of exercisino the 
 authority under the licensing laws, men of sound judgmen°t and 
 
only expect, 
 lid represent 
 s, and they 
 , and so far 
 •od. (Hear, 
 the popular 
 whole body 
 link and to 
 t in a way, 
 ' had never 
 ne to them 
 
 time went 
 (linistratiou 
 into opera- 
 t gradually 
 ntry would 
 •een enter- 
 mch larger 
 Applause.) 
 pect to the 
 whatever is 
 
 hear.) I 
 ition, and 
 ision that 
 . generally 
 >.) Small 
 it gusts of 
 1 opposite 
 xppens to 
 i'ersity of 
 lady, and, 
 "cester, of 
 less than 
 3n of an 
 s of that 
 le oppor- 
 iing the 
 lent, and 
 
 11 
 
 of influence, and of high character would be sure to be placed 
 upon it. They would have at their back the vo'ce of the people ; 
 they would feel the full responsibility of the power with which the 
 people had invested them ; and I am mistaken indeed if the 
 results arrived at and the policy followed by that board did not 
 commend themselves in the long run to the support of all the 
 thinking men in the coun(_ Ladies and gentlemen, I have 
 taken the liberty of detaining you at the opening of the proceed- 
 ings— (applause)— with my opinions upon some few matters. I 
 am very glad to meet you here to-day ; I feel sure that your 
 dehberatious, inspired, as they are, with the sole object of the good 
 of the people— (hear, hear)— will be marked by courtesy to all, by 
 foresight, by sagacity. As chairman, it will be my duty, after 
 putting each resolution or amendment in succession from the chair, 
 and having obtained your vote upon it, to communicate the con- 
 clusions you have arrived at to any authorities whom you may select. 
 I shall do so— whether I do or do not agree altogether with every 
 resolution that may be passed— with the utmost fidelity, and you 
 may rely upon this, that while I necessarily hold myself unpledged 
 in my parliamentary action by any resolutions that may be pasled 
 to-day, I, for one, as a representative of the people in Parliament, 
 will always take care to give my vote, and, if necessary, to raise 
 my voice in furtherance of what I believe to be one of the greatest 
 social improvements that could be carried out, I mean such a 
 reform in the present licensing system as may at least largely 
 diminish the vast and terrible evils of intemperance. (Loud 
 and prolonged applause.) 
 
 Mr. J. H. Raper said he was sure they all desired to express 
 to the chairman their warmest gratitude for the free exposition of 
 his views upon this very important question. (Hear, hear.) 
 Their object was to come to some agreement upon some things 
 and to send to the Cabinet as much information as they could give 
 them in reference to the construction of their coming measure. 
 What did they as representatives of the executive of the organisa- 
 tion recommend ? As far as the general construction of the bill 
 for the regulation of the licensing system was concerned they 
 could give them very little light. The United Kingdom Alliance, 
 and that included Scotland, were able to speak upon some definite 
 
f 
 
 12 
 
 paired wi l^sl W |fl, r "' ^""r ^™'"'' ""'"•''ers voted and 
 
 thinking ™ (he™ ,biect H ^\ '""'""°" "^ <'"<"J' ">™ 
 
 mous as that S^of , ,7 '™ " "■"'Scotland was so nnani- 
 
 and the Governlnf th ' 7 . ™ "?•=»'"?&»' on that point, 
 
 satisfy them S,re'Ent T" ""''"" *'""" ">"' «"M no 
 „f, r ■ , '"'"^'y i-ngland was not goin» to be left „„f l 
 
 after Ireland, Scotland, and Wales had been dealt wih B , t),"^' 
 took a more comprehensive view „f tl>« . , ' """^ 
 
 Sundav closing «„„,i I' , "" "['"^rtion than that of 
 
 uiiay Closing. ocotlanahadnottheBeer 4mo„j ii, , , 
 ments affecting England and 1„ !■„ ■, , °'^'"' '^"^'''P- 
 
 had been made that thel" """"''"ng the proposal which 
 town conncrSco^Ll^ ,?""" ^'""' *'"'l'' ^ <=»nferred upon 
 
 TI.0 lice™ g ' 'ro.^theT'""'' '''''"'" "'"'' "'^' ^''-i-'- 
 conferred pr^ct cairnnon *"■ P?"'™ "' ^''°"''"'' I>»<1 been 
 
 and large tow si "r™, ""™ "=°"""='''- T''" l'"'?'''' "f Scotland 
 England iTa 1 Ze", r*""'"" '"■^S™^"^ the same as 
 the'bailies wh:"^^." r"j"° "»' »'. ™«'"-"t- ^ere 
 
 and there they are eleot d I; th^: 2:"'"^ ""' """""■ 
 magistrates, if they would allow the n^r =■""">'"« of 
 
 were four some ^i, =„ , ^ ■""• ^" """"^ '<>""» there 
 
 The ba I ; ™ e i, tL"°"p' ""'.,"?, '» '-'-■ - - Glasgow. 
 Purposes, Tnd o„ of theinf" ^°"""" °°™"""^ ^"^ "•■'Si'"^™' 
 The^ha rman "Ltfld marf tb T' "" "'' «'"""»« "' "=— 
 He (the cha Jl "harmade a roed'™""*^"'^" '"^ >»«»"• 
 licensing authorityUh adrHisttu?: vo^^ 1?!: nt^ "^ 
 that they were irrpqnnn«;w^ i. "^*^ "°*^ ^^ ^^'^ 
 
ance of En^- 
 Ts voted and 
 liira. That 
 every man 
 ^as so unani- 
 'Hear, hear.) 
 IS be content 
 5y took that 
 1 that point, 
 ' would not 
 ift out lorn, 
 I. But they 
 lan that of 
 ler develop. 
 )osal which 
 •erred upon 
 lat subject, 
 i had been 
 }f Scotland 
 he same as 
 rates were 
 3 councils, 
 imittee of 
 )wns there 
 I Glasgow, 
 lagisterial 
 f licences, 
 position, 
 lixing up 
 3t be said 
 from the 
 )wer, and 
 ay. Did 
 ing more 
 ree votes 
 •'ent into 
 to make 
 I^ouncils. 
 
 13 
 
 Some Scotch people were agitating for licensing boards. They (the 
 Alliance) could say nothing on that subject with authority. All 
 they said was — "Whatever you do in the way of changing the 
 licensing authority or retaining it where it is, thero is one thing you 
 can do, and that is, give to the people a direct popular veto upon 
 the traffic, whether allowed by Crown-appointed magistrates, Town 
 Councils, or licensing boards, or any other authority." (Applause.) 
 The Alliance were not licensing reformers, and were not able to 
 give special information upon the subject. If asked outside the 
 platform or outside the Executive Committee of the Alliance what 
 his views were on that subject, he should say that he had been to 
 Sweden, Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland, and had looked 
 at the licensing systems in the United States, and had travelled 
 from Maine to California leisurely, and had examined their plans. 
 Further, for like purposes he had been to Canada, and if placed 
 in the witness box he should say they needed not to look to 
 the continent of Europe, nor to the United States for light, but 
 they should look to Canada, where they would find the most 
 advanced legislation bearing upon the sale of intoxicating liquor. 
 He said that very carefully, in view of legislation, and in view of 
 the popular direct veto. With Maine in New England and Kansas 
 in the West, the United states still stood first for prohibition, but 
 when they came to talk about legislation including a popular 
 direct veto, he said that Canada was the place to obtain the 
 most light. As to prohibition, Kansas had clearly gone ahead 
 of all. It had excelled even Maine, because after a vote of 
 the Legislature the people had endorsed it, that henceforth 
 it should be unconstitutional to licence anybody to sell intoxi- 
 cating drinks as beverages. Therefore their goal was Kansas; 
 on the way they called at Maine, and saw something grand there ; 
 and further and nearer their own home they found Canada, as 
 it stood at the present moment under the British flag. What did 
 he find there? He found that all the principles that they were 
 anxious about — the principle of Local Option, the principle of 
 the Permissive Prohibitory Liquor Bill, the principle of the direct 
 popular veto — had all been embodied in Canadian legislation 
 within the last few years. Canada was fifty times as large as 
 their own country, and was made up of provinces or states the 
 
 ■'^wesm-rsft^i^ 
 
 mumumtm/^m"! 
 
II 
 
 ^w 
 
 14 
 
 same as the Unital «,„. 
 
 W»j carried o «' ""'' ">«■'' ^i*'! a Federal r 
 
 ^aoh l'''v,„gi,3„„„i, ., «y- Tte,,,, d «even provinees, 
 
 Ihey were greatly affected by ourie2\'° ":''"« ""^""^'"g I"' 
 «ep we took forward affected P. To" '° J=°«I''"J; every 
 ParLament which were com„ar„^ , "^ ^P'''^'' ">»Je in o"r 
 2'"' 'b-e. The .« i« rT ';if "-'- '- were of^ 
 them In jgyo the Ontario LIm °''' '^"""'^^'lid not affect 
 ^--.ng by Town Council.Th: "l''"'':' "f "'^ '^^'^^ °f 
 Town Oonncils to s„ch an ,nLf,hT7 '""' ™""P'ed the 
 away from it. Did they tale .t'" "^^ "^"-^ «'ad to get 
 boards ? No, they conferreTthe ., I"'"""" '''"'' '» "'^»^^"g 
 oo.nm„s,o„ers, with no other duty thff^ "'"'" Crown-appointe! 
 ™e throe for each district. Wha^ „ ' ' "! "'''''"«■ There 
 tte power to discriminate the ri.ht J ?" '""' ""'J'' Simply 
 d.-re,i„n as to m.mber? N ° IZV^r'u*''^ "l"-- A»y 
 Pmv.nca: Pariiament at Ontario T^ "^ "" ''°'"'"=^' The 
 lie first thousand and one for eve" v ^J-^"""":"""" ^^ four for 
 t;ou, men, women, and chiWrr ahr' T'^'f "' "'" P°P"la- 
 tierewere eleven thousand that' wo ,T ""^ ""' """"^a^i If 
 "i-ep^ Ho would show how lo , ' '"' ""^"'^-"'•- "^""r 
 Councd were empowered to reduce ,,1^.'' ,"'7 '"■ ^he Town 
 "■ . It m,ght reduce to any extent ..T'' '"" "°' '°'°"<'a^e 
 ■■eS.3tered itself through [he t"! r T'^ ^'"'''° "P'"'"" 
 elected periodically. The t1v„ r ,""''' "' ""^"bers bein.. 
 ■•a.se the price of the liencel .h"""" "''" '"' ""^ P-'er t^ 
 mcreasing price making it "dm !,. '° '"= "™''«" ^-^ 
 
 Tliey could raise the price „„ t'? , '° ,'''' '™"S- (Laughter ) 
 aWve that, they must'reve t't thr >^ '°""^- " '^^^60 
 
 empowered, and take a popular 1 f^ ^^ "''°™ "'ey wefe 
 
 -" <i .0. There was tCt "^J f, ''"" "™" ''■■s''e' th^y 
 and also by diminishing the „ur. '"""'"=" ^y '"gl' Pnces 
 ■" t e „,t„,, They'had a mlir T^' "''""'^'^ P'-'ded 
 for the money came to them f" r ILf """"^^ 'ke price, 
 the law. and nothing else. TheyhaJ, ' '""^''' '^" ««™te 
 -ere pa,d out of the funds, tolelhat T?' '"^P"'""' '">» 
 H l.ad no hesitation in saving! a o„ " ™ '''""''''^' 
 -- «at,„n the best -m^e^^-r^iv^tl: rictlJ: 
 
'■al Government 
 even provinces, 
 r licensing Jaws. 
 England; every 
 s made in our 
 re were often 
 did not affect 
 tlie system of 
 corrupted the 
 ' glad to get 
 
 to licensing 
 wn-appointed 
 'Sing. There 
 ey? Simply 
 liquor. Any 
 mber? The 
 was four for 
 tlie popula- 
 lousand. If 
 ■nine Jiquor 
 
 The Town 
 i to increase 
 »lic opinion 
 ibers beina- 
 3 power to 
 mbers and 
 l^aughter.) 
 Jf they go 
 they were 
 igher they 
 g'l piices, 
 
 provided 
 he price, 
 > execute 
 tors, who 
 executed. 
 
 for the 
 'strictive 
 
 15 
 
 legislation. But even that would not be satisfactory to the 
 Alliance as a body. In addition to all these provisions, however, 
 there was an act on the statute book of the Dominion of Canada', 
 which was upon the principle of Sir Wilfrid Lawson's permissive 
 prohibitory liquor bill. It gives electors power by memorial, to 
 be signed by at least one-fourth of the electors capable of voting, 
 to ask the authorities to take the opinion of the entire body 
 whether there should be any licensed houses or none. If the 
 Town Council were inert and sluggish, the people could set to 
 work themselves. This was the popular direct veto, and that they 
 (the Alliance) desired as the complement of any new legislation 
 on the subject in this country. He did not say that as an 
 organisation they endorsed even Canadian licensing legislation. 
 The direct popular veto which covers all the provinces was passed 
 at Ottawa in 1878, and that was an act which was clearly in the 
 right direction, and it commanded their approval. Licensing 
 legislation was surrounded by difficulties. Only the popular veto 
 was clear. The other day he received a letter from one of the 
 best workers they had in the three kingdoms, and he declared 
 that if the United Kingdom Alliance endorsed any licensing 
 scheme or took any part or lot in introducing a licensing bill he 
 would at once renounce his connection with them, and denounce 
 the Alliance as a dishonest organisation. It was clear that their 
 work was to point the way of most easily obtaining complete free- 
 dom from licensing altogether. For that purpose they existed 
 and they must keep their eyes fixed on that object. The present 
 chairman, who was also Chairman of Quarter Sessions, did not 
 wish to say anything against magistrates. He was one himself 
 and an influential one too, but had put the matter so clearly as to 
 show that he was anxious that that terrible responsibility of 
 granting licences should be removed and given to those who could 
 secure the fullest consensus of the opinion of the people. He was 
 understood to express an opinion with regard to county licensing 
 boards, and to recommend county areas for licensing purposes 
 Upon that point he might say that Mr. Joseph Cowen, one of the 
 vice-presidents of the United Kingdom Alliance, had introduced 
 a Licensing Boards Bill in the House of Commons, and when he 
 came to fix an area he found a difficulty existed. He was anxious 
 
N 
 
 16 
 
 to legislate in the direrf inn nf *u * ,,• 
 
 well a, to gi.e a ret i„:„f°p L """ "' '""' "' P-'^We, as 
 total p,.e,,ibiti„a ; but 1 e fouad LeTr"'™' >" '""^ ''""' "^ 
 I" tbe smallest parish in tirco,, tftl"™ ' •'!*"'" '"'-'-"■ 
 -•^ the li,iuor traffic being i„ their ti!,,'""'' , """''■■' "''^"'""^ 
 power „f removing i, Tirere > as a„ Act o. p'',"""'''' '"^^ "'« 
 olJ, an ,n,por.a„t one for towns seekini^lhl """'-"" '™ ^"^ 
 «s the Borough Funds Act It !'„Z "^ "»P'-'"'<'rae„ts. It 
 the ratepayers the power of a di°ejt , ?'^ '=<'»""""ty through 
 »eut bills being Ipplied f^r A rb'ill ™"' •"""" '"''■-- 
 works, make street,, or remove li„, , ^'■''""J-'o buy gas. 
 Birmingham-could not be obtain T T "" ""'^ '""' <'»''^ '■> 
 The genius of recent le. slaLo "'"""" «°'"S '<> ^-ondon 
 
 fonu of Government ;t.7ho"l?T'' '"'' '" "'^ »" Saxon 
 against things. At t e p re!e^t time"^ " T""^ '"'^"^"^ f™ and 
 Statute-book, passed by a L be a 0,!v ^^' '"""' """ ^'^' «» ^he 
 Conservative Governme„t,tt trir 1™™'' ""'' ™''"'-l l-^ « 
 question as to whether they sbou M I '" K'"" » veto „„ the 
 
 other ,uestions. At a towl^ mo,l' l: ""7 '™'" " "»'■ «>J 
 Improvenient Bill, t,vo men cou d 11 ," '"^''""" " P'-°P»»^'i 
 
 whole of Btrmingham would have to sav " """■ ""'^ "«=" "'« 
 
 ment Bill. They had not far to 1 T ^'■'' ^^ "° '" """ ^'-P^'O- 
 to say yes or „o L wbiskyt vefl 'T """''""'' '" -'a^'o them 
 Werpool had said yes orno vlf m'T ""'"''"'^^ -^ 
 the whole community Governm„„r , ■ ? '""' "■ P'^^Mte of 
 to find an Act to enable the p oT 1° ^" '""^ ™* '» d" 
 a^ to whether they wanted' ^tr.hrt"^,"'" "" '>"^^"- 
 question of the majority necessarC h! iT , ""' P"''''- Tne 
 a simple majority it tb^ Bor: ^F ^^j tt'-'r^' '"" " "" 
 increased that under no eireumstl , ', "^ ""= '=°"nction 
 "•l-t shops on a majori ^ Cv " ' ■:,'" ^ "'"°"'y '»-« 
 towards a simple majo'rity'in tf ler i ofTh"" "7'"' ™ 
 Thus, with a popular veto in force sucir»! ''°'"'''"' ^oto. 
 
 Borough Funds Act and the Acts ,o 7t\ . ''""'^'^ ''f the 
 of a parish could be obtained and V 'f""^' ""^ "P^'iou 
 
 comi„„.„g the traffic in th r mtds't 1 e"!:" "' ''^*'"" "=-■"'' 
 ever constituted, would simply be inl "r^"""" '"'"'°'"-'' '""'■ 
 
 '-- Which would run ourat\r:dTt,rye: r;;::: 
 
 t 
 
17 
 
 they had been granted. He knew that some people said that was 
 not practicable legislation, but public-houses were only licensed 
 for twelve months. If the Bench — at Worcester, for instance- 
 refused every licence, there was no power to make them alter 
 their decision. Quarter sessions could overrule it, but if they 
 endorsed it there was no power in the Act to enable them to go 
 further. They might go to the Queen's Bench ; but, if sensible, 
 they would support the local people. There is no recognition of 
 claim in respect to a licensed house beyond twelve months. When 
 in any parish it was wLshed to terminate the licence they con- 
 tended most earnestly that it should be given effect to in law. 
 (Applause.) 
 
 The Chairman: I think Mr. Raper has in one respect mis- 
 understood me. What I said to-day was what has bee' for a very 
 long time my opinion. It happens — I believe I am right in saying 
 so — that at the Conference which he mentions in 18GG under the 
 chairmansliip of Sir James Shuttle worth, the resolution to which 
 he alludes was carried by a majority after a discussion in which a 
 good deal of diffeisnce of opinion seemed to exist. I voted for the 
 resolution 
 
 Mr. Raper : I said so. 
 
 The Chairman : But more than that, I think he will find that 
 in the year 1SG9, when I had the honour of being President of 
 the Jurisprudence Department of the Social Science As.sociation 
 at its meeting at Bristol, I devoted a considerable portion of 
 my address to this question, and I there went strongly for the 
 power, in any parish or any other locality, to put an end, if it 
 thought fit to do so, to this trade altogether. (Applause.) What 
 I said then was this, and I say it now, tbat inasmuch as the 
 report of Convocation on the subject of intemperance showed 
 that there were upwards of 1,000 parishes in England in which 
 the landowners would not permit any public-house within the 
 limits of the parish, they owning the whole of it, I thought that 
 in parishes where the people were not entirely in the hands of a 
 single landowner they ought to have an equal power of saying, if 
 they thought fit to do so, that there should be no public-house 
 within the parish. (Applause.) In other words, for at least fifteen or 
 sixteen years I have been in favour of Local Option in the shape 
 
18 
 
 of a local veto. The question with wh,V^ t j ,- 
 
 commencement of the proceed il- ""^^ ^^''"° ^° *^« 
 
 tion, for I venture to affim " ""''' ^ somewhat wider ques- 
 
 or near,, all, would 'exercirihatpl^o^ ^T'' 
 
 to-morrow, and it ia fii^r^f ■ ^ ^®'° " *Qey had t 
 
 «ome,icen;in;a::h:i TXroVeT 'T ''-'' '^ 
 
 of local veto you might live n ^ "^^''^^ ^^"^^ 
 
 constitution of the bodv f ' ^'^^ '"^"'"""^^ ^^ the 
 
 was speakiu. I was id f?'""^" '^^'' ^"^^ority that I 
 
 was there I looked a littlf . .^ ^"^'' ^" ^'°''^^- ^^^'^° I 
 corroborate all Z he d ta I^ r^^""', ^"' f ^^" ^"''^ 
 had some such svsfpm a ?u ^" ''"'^ ^''^ ^^at we 
 
 administratioTof ria"\hTresh nf^ '^ '''' ^^^'^ ^^^ 
 veto. (Hear, hear) ''^ ^' '^' ^^^^^^ '^ ' P^P^^^r 
 
 I- ill '( 
 
 A. .BEL.KC ..vo CO.. P«..XEBS. P.I.. M.LL, M.SCr.StEH. 
 
I dealing in the 
 bat wider ques- 
 3rn believes, nor 
 les of England, 
 if they hud it 
 here should be 
 I'hatever power 
 iference to the 
 thority that I 
 Raper describe 
 ada. When I 
 d I can fully 
 vish that we 
 ide with the 
 r of a popular 
 
 II