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Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hend corner, left to right end top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent Atre filmte A des taux de rAduction diff Arents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour Atre reproduit en un seul clichA, 11 est filmA A partir de I'engle supArieur gauche, de gauche A droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images nAcessai'^e. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mAthode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 ^,- M: AUTHENTteATED REPORT OF THE DISCUSSION, WHICH TOOK FLACK BKTWXBir THE REV. MESSRS. MAGUIRE AND GREGG, IN THk ROTUNDA, DUBLIN, IN MAY, 1838. MOITTREAL: Printed bt John CoRcoRi^. ' 1839. *■ :3flf JS< <■ r ■ "^ I ^ [T r- ex '*-KaE£3u=«si;s„-_---.i;_;^ijii2^T ■'•■X>'^|''' ' ^ <■ T ii T.r v""^ :©^c ?^yir,.Sj •UAfJJ^JToD ^I'lo'^. ■'"[ >■ •)".i THE REV, MESSRS. MAGUIRE AND GREOa t:.: I -.'.iyT'c 1.1'. ') JO ■;..•';>«. . ' M : , .• FiMT Day— Tuesday, 29th Mat, * k nt.fi i-i • /irs TuB9DAr, being the day fixed for the commencement of the discussion between ibe Rev. Messrs. Maguire and Gregg, at ten o*clock the entrance to the Rotunda was crowded with persons anxious to be present on the occasion ; and very short, ly after the door was opened, the room became densely crowdr ed. At about a quarter to eleven the reverend disputants, ac comp^nied by some friends, came on the platform. When the appointed hour arrived. The Rev. Mr. Maguirk rose and said-^^I challenge the Rev. Mr. Gregg for his proofs that the united Protestant church of England and Ireland is the true church of Christ- holy catholic, and apostolic — ^in these kingdoms. The Rev. Mr. Grbog — Gentlemen, 1 twg leave, first of all, to dispose of one necessary preliminary ; and that is, to pro* pose that my reverend and respected friend, Mr. Edwaid Nangle, missionary of Achill, do act as my chairman. Rev. Mr. Maouirp — I agree to that : and on my part, I announce that the Rev. Justin M^Namara, parish priest of Km- sale, is to act as my chairman. Rev Mr. Gregg then called Apon either of the chairmen to read ihe propoi^iiaons which he undertook to prove, and the regtilaiions by which iheir proceedings were to be governed. Rev. Mr. Nanglb read Mr. Gregg's proponitions. Rev. Mr. Mociot ics were called by the names of private individuals — Cyreutheans, Donatists, and other heretics, if heretics they may be called. M t!)ese diir<.rent clashes of Christians of course had, ge- neraily svieuking/ihe sanoe religion : and if asked were they Chris- tians, the dMKwer would be, •'yes." It thereforo became necessary 10 riscertiiin whether they belonj^'^d to the common body ot Chris- liwitijorto a private society. Hence the common body of Chris- mm •>»tabiished by Christ wan called Catholic, because it was ihf religion as it were of the ^^'ihlic, and the others were private societies. You can, I ana sure, conceive these private societies propajjHtJng the;r doctrines, and {^ending tl\eir missionaries privately into other countries, where they planted the tree of corruption, till it sprcdd and equalled the true vine which Christ planted. You will then, I hope, bear in mind thi.s distinction, that the word Ca- thttlic, 'vhen applied to the church, is nierely relative and not posi- - tiv*>. Jt tioeb nut ).i|^u ttrni N disriiuii.tf and relative ; it it not e solute. Now, I call upon )ou. gtntliiit o, to listen and be attentive. 1 am read^ to aHseri that Cltri^r >iii;4 forth the grapes of Sodom and the figs of Gomorrha. Ht^ told >>f this spostacy and the place where it would have its sent. He t<>!d us how long it would continue, and that it should he the mu^t dreadful, monstrous, and shocking evil that ever appi^ared upon the earth. All this is consistent with the gates of hell not prevailing against it ; for we are told that while this apostacy shoud continue, while the blasphemous doctrines of idolatry and suptrstitinn would be teaching by the ministry of this church, a stream of life should always flow throush the dark waters of superstition : and Lhcre should be found tliose who would raise their voices a^uini>t ap'>'- tacy, who would overcome their enemies, and bring the truechurd), holy, Catholic, and pure, from the midst of the apostate mass. 1 trust that you understand the view that I have taken. 1 know that it is always better, for the understanding of a suliject, to bring it palpably before the eye, so that no mistake may be made about It. I have a plan illustrative of what I have endeavored to explain. I know my reverend friend will approveof this plan, for he has in his own church something of the same kind— in the tree or vine I believe it is called. [He here displayed a map of what might be called a river, the upper part of it was painted gold colour ; through it were some slight red streaks, which continued gradually to spread till they became larger than the gold part, which now became only a few gold streaks throush a broad space of red. The gold towards the bottom grew more distinct, and finally separating from it, be- came large again.]|[ You see, said he, in the gold the primitive church, as established by Christ in the days of the Ap6»tles. The red streaks that you see through it are the streams of corrupt tion and apostacy, which began to flow even in those days, and which are gradually spreading, overflowed and overwhelmed the priinitive church. This is represented by the great sea of red : through it you see slight gola streaks, which represent the prinii- tive church still existing, almost invisibly. The colour you will easily understand. It is scarlet, and I mean to represent the scarlet w — -— . Forgive, if my expressions are strong. I assure my reve- rend opponent and his friends, that I do not mean to offend in any- thing tnat I may say— I only seek to speak the truth and forgive. Rev. Mr. Maguire, I hope, by that means that I will have you a convert to pur primitive holy Catholic Church. Mark me, this at the lower part is the primitive church, as it is in England and Irelandy flowing out from the midst of apostacy and corruption : ,1 I'i :.'5 :i m THE DISCUSSION. ' •nd you tee that the red ii becoming darker and darker, and f •olemnly lay that it will become like unto the blood of a dead noan, till all those within it die previoun to the judgment, that will finally deMroy ir, and an awful destnictiun it will be. Rev, Mr. Maouirb— Gentlemen, I suppose you are already more than half persuaded that the united church of England and Ire- land is the true church, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Hev Mr. GnEoo — In these kingdoms. Rev. Mr. MAouiRs—Well, then, in these kingdoms. Really I cannot perceive how anything which the reverend gentleman baa loid, hears directly or indirectly on the subject. It is true he dia- plnycd to you an admirable picture. At first I thought it was the fallnof Niagaro, (a laugh) ; and he told you that the original church «-ns the gold, and that corruption gradually came in. I perfectly agree with him. I agree witn him that the vine which Christ plant- ed was at t rat as a grain of mustard seed, which even in the time of the apostles spread over the world till all the birds in the air could nestle in its leaves. He then came to the nature of Christianity ; and did yuu mind how he winced and was shaken when he attempt- ed to give you an idea of heresy and schism. I felt for my reverend friend, and the more, becauMe I know his great talents and won- derful powers of mind, when I sew how feeble was his attempt to make anyth ng of that part of his subject. He told you that Christ established a church, and that schisms and heresies sprang up in it» but he should also have told you how these schisms and heresiea affected the original church, or how the true doctrines are to be die- covered. But he tells you who were the first men that they estab- ]ishe only his church can be traced ; und tlx re is the title which he has showed you that he has to purity, holiness and catholicity. He says that his church is a branch of the true church. I wish to know can a lopped-uiF branch flourish 1 I never felt so confounded for my friend ; I never pitied him so much, (for I respect his talents, and I admire the manli- ness with which he came forward on this occasion,) as when he told you that Christ said, " that the gates of hell should not prevail against his church ;" and then added, in the one breath, thut the same Jesus Christ, who made this solemn undertaking, foretold that apostacy, the most awful and most generri, should spring up in that church, against which the gates of hell were not to prevfii). My reverend friend will tell you in explanation, that the gates ot' hell did not prevail against it ; for though the apostacy was gene- ral, a stream of pure doctrine never ceased to flow, invisibly indeed, but still it flowed, and he will tell you this, to excuse his church, though Luther has declared that not a single individual existed for one thousind years that was not sunk in the deepest and most dam- nable idolatry and superstition ; and that during that period there was not a true professor of the word in the whole world. Next, my reverend friend says that catholic signifies that it is spread over the whole world. Rev. Mr. Gregg — No, no. Rev. Mr. Maguire — I heg of you not to interrupt me. You can reply when I am done. He says that it signifies that the church ought to be spread over the whole world — but that it is DOt spread over it. I assert that the meaning of it is no such thing, but that it is a distinctive appellation by which the true church can be discovered and distinguished from among all other churches. What, then, is the meaning of it 1 That of all Christian socie- ties the Catholic will immeasurably exceed all others in its ex- tent. So that it is a mark set upon the true church so visible, B i" ■^ '^•fC ll.'( I 10 THE DISCUSSION. mi so easily discerned, that even a fool cannot err in discovering it. But let me ask, how will a fool find out the truth by the many paths which the assertion of the right of private judgment has opened 1 will the map which my friend displayed direct him ] He would be as much at a loss as ever even with that. My friend tells you that the true church in this kingdom is the Protestant church as estab- lished in England and Ireland, But I tell you it is not. I refer you to the 15th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, and there you will see that the Antiocheans and Judeans opposed Paul and Bar nabas, who had been sent to preach amongst them. They were not convinced by the preaching of these Apostles, and they appeal- ed to a general council, of what my friend calls the officers (for he is dreadfully afraid of the word priest) ; hut I tell him that every priest is an officer ; but every officer is not a priest ; and I wish he would give up his horror of the name, and speak more ecclesiasti- cally. Well, then, they appealed to a council of the priests and bishops of the church assembled in Jerusalem. St. Paul acknowed their right to appeal ; but if the right of private judgment was al- lowed he acted wrong, and did what he ought not to do ; and the apostles were worse for deciding upon the appeal and silencing the Antiocheans and Judeans who never said a word more on the sub- ject, for they bowed to the authority of the church and the Holy Ghost, in v/hose names the council pronounced their decision. If the right of privite judgment were allowed this would not have been the consequence ; and this is a clear proof that that doctrine upon which my reverend friend's church is founded, was not the doctrine of Christ aud his apostles. Next, gentlemen, he talks of converting mi*. If I am wrong, may the Lord convert me. Rev. Mr. GaircjG — Amen. Hcv. !Mr. Maguire — And if he be wrong, may the Lord signify it to us by some means — not that I pray for any virible jiulgment upon my opponent. What fools must have been the martyrs in »Spain, ill France, and Portugal, and Italy, and all over the world, to give up friends, {-.nd property, to submit to be given to wild boasts, and to undergo every species of the bitterest torture for the sake af a vile church that drank deep of the chalice of apostacy already, if we are to believe the words of my reverend friend. Or how foolish to imagine that that church for which so many have suffered was apostate ? I ask why so many, beautiful virgins have submitted to similar tortures if our church were i.ot the true one. Let me ask why wheti locked up with the raging beasts in their den, they licked their feet and hurt them n i ? Let me ask in what other church have such miracles happened, or for what religion such sacrifices were made ? I challenge him to show me any ? He allows that he had the true faith in the beginning — will he name when he lost it ? What was the first heresy— when did it commence — under what Pope or Emperor, without the heretics having been excommunicat- ed 1 Now, if he can n.icie ono heretic that was not excommunicat- ed—now if there were any allowed to remain in the church, let him name them. There were none, though. Will he name any heresy, [ al L at dc fe- FlllST DAY— TUESDAY. 11 I ask again ? Does not Luther liimsolf say that he was alone ? [He cited a passage from one of his writings.] Let me ask him, also, where was the church in existence in the religion of which Luther himself was bound under pain of eternal damnation to make an act of faith '? Where was it 1 Does not Christ say — " He that does not obey the church let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican." Where was the church which he was to obey 1 He says himself no where 1 and how could he obey a church which did not exist 1 The only church that then existed was ours. How is it consistent that he should obey a church which, according to him and his reverend friends, was apostate 1 Now I will show that it is utterly impossible that his church can convert a Jew ; and if I do» he must come to our side. The Jew whom he would seek to con- vert would say to him, " Why, for eight hundred years, according to yourself, there was not one in the church who was not sunk in ido- latry. Here is the 'id chapter and 18th verse- of Isaiah ; Ezekiel, chapter the 30th, verse the 25th ; Micha, the 18th verse ; and Za- chariah. the 31st verse." According to these prophets, would the Jew say, " there never could be idolatry or superstition in the Christian dispensation ; and before you presume to teach me the Christian doctrine, show me that it is consistent with our prophets, who never preached what was false. Our prophets, who were not liars, and now independent of the New Testament, 1 will never be a Christianas long as Christianity is contradictory to them.'' Now, this is the natural consequence of his assertions and his belief. But I will aak him, what signifies it if he prove that our religion is. wrong 1 It may be wrong, but that does not make his right. It is not necessary, I must remind you, for me to say one single word in defence of my own religion : fjrst, because he has advanced no argument against it ; and next, if he did, it is not the subject of this day's discussion. The Dissenters, who are also Christians, are equally opposed to the monstrous grasping ambition of the estab- lished church, that puts her hand into every man's pocket, and seeks for every man's money, even though he may curse her doc- trines — even though he would not join in her prayers ; and she re- jects the Dissenter from her, because he will not swear to twenty- two negative articles, and is not willing to pay her what she has not"earned, in order to make her ministers roll in their carriages, to pension the daughters of her bishops, who are married to parsons^ and to get benefices for their sons. There is not a single argument that he will advance that I will not retort with double force in the name of the Dissenters. I will show that his rule of faith has damn- ed him, and them, and me, if I were fool enough to adopt it. He says, if he is right we are wrong, and if we are wrong he is right. It is a non sequitur. If his arguments were carried out it would go to this, that no man without the pale of his church would be saved. That is not my doctrine. It is true that I believe no heretic or schismatic will be saved. But who is to say who is the heretic and who is not ? The man that lives in the wrong church and knows^ it to be so, is a heretic, and will be damrieii ; but who will tell the m I'M m 12 THE DISCUSSION. n j>i the man thnt knows it ? I ask how could my reverend friend call the Rev. Mr. BurgI) a heretic because he differed from him in opi« nion ? Has he not the right of private judgment, as well as my friend, according to his own principles ? Now, if I choose to broach a new heresy, (and I could broach one as well as many of those who have done so already) — suppose I was to say that my friend should not have a second coat — the Gospels say so — if I said, when you are asked for your coat, give your waistcoat also — if you are struck on one cheek, turn the other also — wliat right would he have to call me a heretic ? If he objects to the bible, I hold out its truth to him, and he admits that it is infallible. Rev. Mr. Gregg — Gentlemen, I entreat your attention once more. I thank my God I stand here as a member of the church of England and n^t as a private individual. I take up the last of my reverend friend's observations first. I, as a churchman, hold that the church is the judge in matters of controversy as to faith, and that she has the power of throwing out of her pale all heretics ; and my reverend friend and I very nearly accord on this subject, I ad- mit that the holy Catholic church has the power of condemning he- resy. I only say that the unholy church has not that power. I object to the errors of his church, but not to all her doctrines, and I grant that the holy church has the power of objecting to heresy. I do not stand on the paramount right of private judgment. I de- fend private judgment when it agrees with the public judgment of the church, and all that I blame is private mis-judgment. There is iirst, the public judgment of the church, and it directs the private judgment of individuals. Secondly, there is the private judgment,^ which, if well directed, will accord with the public judgment. Take mathematics, for instance. Who will deny that in mathematics every one has a right of private judgment ? If a man choose to say that three angles of a triangle are equal to two right angles and a half I would say to him that he had a right to think so if he liked, but that all the rest of the world would laugh at him, and think him a fool, and that is precisely the way when the judgment of an individual is at variance with that of the church. Whenever ray private inclination leads me to differ with the received doctrines of the church, I say let us wait awhile, perhaps we will sec that the church is right ; and invariably I find it to be the case. Mark me, I condemn heretics, because they assert the right of private judg- ment, denying altogether public judgment ; and I condemn the Church of Rome ':jr asserting public judgment denying altogether the right of private judgment, for truth lies between them. You, therefore, see that the Rev, Mr. Maguire's fulminations against me on that head do not at all hold. He says also that our church can- not convert a Jew, Protestants, 1 say, have converted Jews. One fact is worth a thousand assertions, and ) think I could adduce hun- dreds of facts. I once met a Jew. He was originolly from Poland, and 1 was particularly anxious to know what was the state of his mind previous to conversion. I therefore asked him why he did not at first become a Christian 1 lie told nie that he saw so much ble of wh Ch mo pre bet lati pO!b bn ofi FIRST DAY-TUESDAY \» blessing of holy v^ater. t ' ' exhibitiou of images, and other species of idolatry, that he wu. not for anything become a C^hnistian, but when he came he saw n.. such thing, and he immediately embraced Christianity. It is then notorious that the Church of kom^ is the mother of every species of superstition ; and, if I may use the ex- pression, she is also the mother of the hard'heartedness of the un- believing Jews. Mr. Maguire has said that there could be no ido- latry in the Christian church, and has cited scripture to that pur- pose. I will point out to him in the scripture the most direct pro- phecies of that idolatry in the church. I will call his attention to the Prophet Zachariah, chap. 11, verse 16, where he said — " I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that he cut off, neither shall he seek the young one nor heal that that i<« broken, nor feed that that standeth still ; but he shall eat the ilu^U of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shep- herd that leaveth the flock ! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye ; his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened." Here I refer Mr. Muguire to the raising up of the shepherd in the church. He objects to my use of the words heresy and schism, but in my opinion, he appears to con- fuse their meaning much. We all know that the word schism is derived from the Greek, and that it means a splitting. The apos- tle, writing to one of the churches, says, ** let there be no schisms (sciDzo, that is divisions) among you. Again, the word heresy means, I grant, a choice, but it is when that choice is made with an injury that it becomes wrong ; and we find that the word heresies is sometimes taken in good sense. Thus the proper meaning of the latter word, as taken by the church, is a choice of error, as that of sciiiDzo is a splitting or dividing, as well as a cutting or dividing, and also a cutting off, as Mr. Maguire takes it to be. My reverend friend blames me for not proving all at once that the church of England is the true church in these countries ; that I will do ; but had I the seven heads and ten horns, I could not do it at once, along with following the arguments of Mr. Maguire. He asks me to point out a time when the heresy of the church of Rome began. Now, to take a simple illustration, if I was to sak any gentleman here when his hair became grey, would he not be rather surprised at the question 1 and tell that it did not happen in one day, but that it became grey by degrees. In the same way, when I am asUed when the church of Rome became corrupted and idolatrous. I an- swer, by degrees. I shall now refer Mr. Maguire to his favorite apostle, 2d Peter, chap. 2, verse 1, where it is said, " But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." In the next is described — first, the introducers of heresies and false prophets ; secondly, the mater of the heresies, who privily bring in damnable heresies." Priiihf, that is in tite same manner that a man's hair becomes grey by degrees and imper- ceptibly ; and, thirdly, the fatal atul aw ful conclusions to which ■|!l (:*? I, \ if ^SLJ-J*^ !lH 'i i M THE DISCUSSION. these hftresiesr must lead, " ihey bring upon thempclves swift destmction/' Mark, then, my friends, the manner and the mode of introducing those heresies as pointed out in thai text. But we are referred to the Old Testament, and there we iiave a fine field open to find out what the nature of these heresi»£, thus described, should be. 1 will now ask what was tlie na. tureof.the heresies in the Old Testament, and were they ubi idolatrous ones ? But then they were not a total denying of the Lord ; they were, in some measure made subservient to the worship of the true God. The Jews, in truth, abandoned the tiue God on thesje occasfons, though they thought not themselves, and might not have appeared to do so. Ever}^ part of the Old Testament gives us examples of this fact. Let us read that part in which is described the golden ralf that was set up by Aaroti. It will be found in tlie 3d chapter of Exodus, where it is said, when the calf was set up to be worshipped, "These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought- them out of the land of Egypt." Mark, then, it was intended to represent Elohim hitnself. Now, this arose from the very sa. crificial liies of the Jews, all of which foreshowed the Messiah, it arose from the sacrifices of oxen, misunderstood by (hose people. Now, is not this the identical thing of which we ac- cuse the church of Rome ? We have the sacrament, ami bless- ed be God! we have the real presence with it, for he who le- ceives it receives Christ, the hope of glory, giving him wealth, and power and energy ; but the elements are not changed into Christ, as the church of Rome believes, by being transubstan- tilated into him — hence they got jiot (he real presence, but they receive and adore a fiction instead (hereof. Such, my friends, was the apostacy of the Jews; and if we go over the whole history of the ancient church, w^e will find it the same on other occasions. Thus, in the Book of Kings, when the false pro- phet prophecied to King Ahab, and told him that his enemies would be delivered into his hands, (hey said at the same time that ihey served tlie Lord (»od, and iridicated his will. This was the apostacy of the Church of Rome, the very same as that of the Jews. We find, as the Scriptures describe, the false teachers who were to be in the church, who would close their ears and eyes, anc haiden their hearts and the hearts of the people against the truth, and against (he woid of God. Mr. Maguire asks how is u possible thai idolatry could exist in the Church of Christ. Now, we find in the ll(h cliapter of Revelations, while the chuich is likened to a temple, these words — " And the angel siood, saying rise and measuue the temple of God and the altar, and them that woiship therein ; but the court that is without the temple leave out, and Uiea- FIRST DAY-TUESDAY. 15 sure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles.*' How then \e the truth to be kept jilive in the church 1 Chfist has raised wit- nesses for thnt purpose — " I will give power uiiio my two wit- nesses, and ih^'j shall prophesy a thousand two huudred and three score days, clothed in sackcloih." By means of those will the people be enabled to escape from the midst of aposta- cy. Mr. Maguiie asked, '' Where was the church in the time of Luther 1" The true church was in ^he midst of the abomi. nation — it was in ihe lieart of a monk. Luiher himself tells us ihat when he groaned beneath the burden of sin, and laboured in every manner he could to get rid of it, he could find no peace for his soul in the midst of all his prayers and fastings, and olher austerities. He then mentioned his distress to an Angus, tinian monk, who, he tells us, discussed for a long time with Jiim ilie remission of .sins, and pointing out to him an article in the creed on that subject, he told him, " believe ibis not as if I said in general, but o( thy sins." Lather then became comfort- ed, and he said he ft-lt that he was washed in the blood of Je- sus. Thus there \\aHan humble Augustinian monk in the midst of the aposiacy, who was a silent witness of the truth. Mr, Gregg's half hour being out. Rev. Mr. Maguire said — My friends you have just heard that Luther was a silent witness I 1 thought quite the contra, ry, and I never liRaid of any man who made a greater noise in the world. Why he made more noise than Arius himself: but that is nut to the purpose. I a sliced my opponent where was tho true cl.urch in wiiicli Luther could make an act of faith, which he must have done under the penalty of damnation, and am I fold where 1 De non exislentibus et non apparentibus eadon et>i rat'o. If the churcli was not visible, it was just the same for the purpose as if if did not exist at idl ; and if it ever had existed, where, when, and how did it disappear % Was there, in reality, after 1500 years no visible ohurch on earth % And yet Jesus Chriist has said the church which he established was a city on a mountain, to which all nations flocked — a light which could not be hid — a tree which overshaded all the earth — a rock iigninst which the gates of Ivdl should not pre- vail. He said to his apostles, " Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fail ler, and of the Son, and of fhe Holy Ghosf, and behold I am with you to fhe end of the world." With whom was he % With the bishops and priests of his church, to whom he addressed himself. How was he with ihem 1 Teaching and preaching, and baptizing. How long % To the end of fime. Again I ask you — but I know that I ask you in vain — where was the church 1 Did not the apostles assert in their creed, " I believe la the holy Catholic churcl^^ i ^fl ii '\\i\ ;'i lilt : ' ' 'I ■ i . i, ! . ■ 1 ■'i' M THE DISCUSSION. fla well ns they Hid " I believe in rhc Holy Glioil 1" How, then WH8 it Catholic if it was invisible '? How whs it univei- B'tI, ifitwns not to be seen on the face of the earl h ? Thus are those professors of a fulno creed driven into corners ihuj have ihpy recourse to subterfuge, and are put under the ne- cessity of conlradictitia^ themselves. I reminded him of Paul and Barnabus, but to no purpose. He says he is for public and private judgment taken conjointly ; but he holds that the Dis. senters are not in the chutch, because, aiaking use of their private judgntent (hey differ from him. Mr. Gregg — I protest against Mr. Maguire taking on him the character of a Dissenter. Mr. MaguiRR — How can you protest against what all must acknowledge to be a fair argument 'i But 1 know, poor man, how you must feel it. Mr. Gregg— I argue wiihyou as a Catholic gentleman, and if you turn Dissenter, I must take a diirerent course, (cries tf chair, chair ) Mr. Maguire: — The chairmen will decide that question ; but how came it that in my discussion with Mr. Pope that nei- ther Mr. Pope nor I had occasion to resort to interruption or contradiction ? But I will argue with you in this way. If two persons, both of whom say they have the Holy Ghost to to direct them should disngiee, who is to decide between them] Can the Holy Ghost contradict himself, or will he decide against hansel f1 The holy Scriptures of themselves cannot be an infallible guide. They are of course objective. ly infallible, that is with regard to €rod and to lliemselvo?, because all that they contain is true ; but they aie fiillible with regard to us, because we may be deceived in the sense in which we understand them. Now, when any difference exists in matters of religion, before cither public or private iadgnnent can decide, by having recourse to the Scripture?, It musit first determine whether that Scripture be nucorrupt. ed and genuine. And, finally, if public and private judg- ment do not yield to each other, will it be said that the Holy Ghost, whom all pretend to have, is a spirit of contradiction 1 Mr. Gregg says .hat he gets out of the dilemma by asserting that private judgment is only right as long as it coincides with that of the church. Now I ask who gave his church any au- thority in matters of faith 1 Who ordained it to judge of the faith of Christ t If it derived not that authority from Christ, from whom did it derive it ? Was it from Harry VIH.,or Bess, or Neddvj or the cruel, avariciotJs, grasping, tyrannical Someriret 1 The question to-day is, whether or not the church of England is the church of Christ ceJ bei T r ^ » r • rfft^stiJAir-Tcr^DAY. ?.i •.li^ IT ■ Mr. Oregg — In thesic countries. - . ' ,Mi. Maguir£ — In the^e countries, I any; and it is unne. cessaiy to iiiteiTupt me. Tc.morrow the cbiircb of Rome will be on h«r iiIhI, I aguin ask Mr. Gi'egg will he support the (wenly.lvvo negutjve and rei'ormcd uiiicks of Wm chui'di 1 I do not require him to prove those which he admits in common \viih me, and which relate to ihe dociritiea of >be Trinity aiid incarnation, &c. I challenge Lim to stipport the reformed ar. ticles of the Church of Englarid, and I will endeavor to keep him (o the (question. I will tMW propose a few argnmentd to him. 1 say tha,t church cannot be the true one which accused Chi'ist of having broken his promises ; pnd ilie chuicb of £ng. liand nccuiies Christ of having broken his promises; therefor^ ft cannot be the true church. I prove the minor proposition thus :.>^Christ has said that he would build hJH ckuich on n rock— ithat he would nii^ke it the pillar and the ground of truth — that the gates of bell would not pievaii against it-*^And that his Spirit would remain with it through all ages to teach it all truth, fiut the Protestant^ say that ihe church fell into apostacy and idolatry, and thus thai (he gates of hell did pre, vail against it, and, consequently that the promises of Christ to his church did fail. Mr. Gregg refeis me to the idolatry of the Jeytrs, which I^ never questioned, to show me that tho church of Christ also fell into idolatry. Christ said to his church, " As my Father has sent me so do I send you — and I will remain with you for all ages ;" but Mr. Greg-g says that he did not remain with the church, and that the object of all those sacred prpmises f^U into the grossest corruption and abomina. ifou, and apostacy. 1 cull on him now to prove the 22 arti, cies which he stands here to advocate from Scripture. Every ohe appeals lo Scripture* in support of his own opinions — every h(F>retic and schismatic, and enthusiast, and ranter calls th^ Scripture to his aid; they all say that they are infallible in . the interpretation of it ; that the Holy Spirit dwells in them, and that (hey feel confident of it ; but when they quote, tha Scriptui;,e they give their own gloss (o it. I don't give any gloss to'the Holy Scriptures when I quote it ; but the gloiris and interpretation of that church which has withstood the tempest of more than 1800 years, and those men who adorned it by their wisdom and Icnrning, and holy lives— who studied the Word of God in the sacied cell, and in the rocks of the de- sert, and who sealed the testimony of its truth with the last di;'op of blood that flowed from their hearts. It is to the church of the priniitive saints — the church which converted the whole . worldj, that 1 appea!r--and was it not, in truth, the Church of ; Rome which converted £ngland and Ireland, and Germany, .: aiid maiiy other parts of tlui'ope to the truths of Christiaaity 1 M 1 m ill :-^i ;:-l!l hi m IS THE DISCUSSION. -I We hear a great denl of the conversion of (he Jews by Proles- tanfs. I myself henrd^Mr. WoUrtell in (his room of his having -eonverted u Jewish Rabbi to Christianity, but tlie triiih of the matter was that when the Jew got the Bible, he lost no titna till be (ore the New Testament out of it. Indeed, the Rev. Mr. Wolff, a man of honor, but an enthusiast, slated in this room some years ago, that he had converted a Jewish rabbi in Jerusalem. Now, Dr. Madden, a gentleman who has travelled nearly as much as the Rev. Mr. WolfT, informed him (Mr. M.) that he saw the rabbi in Jerusalem, and put the newspaper into his hand, containing the account of his alleged conversion. The Jew smiled, and produced the bible in which Mr. WolflPa name appeared, and the New Testament was torn out of it. People may laugh when we say our church has the gift of mi. recles ; but wheie is there another church which coidd boast like ours of miracles 1 Suppose a man should say that he works miracles, and in proof thereof should turn a flock of Iambs into an open desert, some of the lambs would be slaugh. lered by the savage beasts ; but, wb ii, by iheir mildness, they shoidd have chanq-ed the wolves and tig6r:?, and made them as ir»ild and harmless as themselves, wotdd not that be a great miracle ? Such has been oui- case — we have been sent among the wolves, and we have changed them into the iambs of Jesus Christ. 1 ask, did not St. Francis Xnvier convert more souls to Christianity in India, during three years and a half, than all thai were ever converted in any country by (h6 exer. lions of the Protestant chinch? Even Pioiestant hiplorinns acknowledge the miracles of liiat great saint ; for God ktiew that when he was sent to carry the gospel into an infidel coun- ' try, miracles were necessary lo attest the doctrines which he preached. Such conversion was not Iik3 that elfected by Pro. testants, who say that when any me reads the Bible he is pon. ' verted, whether he may not cast away ihe Bible in a moment after. To-morrow, my friends, yon shall see how I will difspiove all the arguments brong^hl ni^niufst my ch'Mch. I will prove thai Antichrist is yet to come — (hat iiis reign will be buf three 3'ears and a half — tlmt ho is lo be a single man, and not. (ha whole race of popes, as Mr. Gregg will attempt (o show yon. I will prove ihat that interpreiation of Scripture is nnnsensicnl and ridiculous in the highest degree — I will make Protesianis laugh at him for employing it , and now, in my turn, I call upon him to give, as he is boimd lo do, scripttnal pioofs of the reformed part of the Thirly-nine Articles. He believes them to be essential, and that without them there is no safely, for his church even compels men to swear to them. Now may it not be asked if the church being invisible for 1000 yearn could.'- not men be excused for not believing in her existence t WoaW " ... -.:1s FiKST DAY -TUESDAY. 19 .-...;•■. It •'. • • ..■ ■■ <'^'. i the then be h'ke the city on the hill, or that glorious tree which over shadow* the entire earth, and in whose wide spreading branches and ample foliage, the birds of the air find a shelter and build their nests 1 and, if our Protestant brethren love to wander and romance, and cannot be brought to nestle among its leaves, then are they of those, of whom Christ speaks, when he says, other sheep and ano* ther fold have I which 1 must also bring back. Where was the fold, and where was the shepherd for a thousand years? Did Jesus leave them so long alone ? Again, 1 argue thus: that the church which contradicts thf> evident truth is false and ignorant. But the Church of England contradictii the evident truth, therefore it is false and ig« norant. I prove the minor. The Churcli of England contradicts the evident truth, if it asserts that the part is greater than the whole ; hut thi.^ it dues, when it holds that private judgment is not only aa good, but even better thun that of the whole church. Hence 1 ar* j;!ue that the Church of England is ftilse and ignorant, and I chaN Icnge my antagonist to disprove it. Does not Christianity come by hearing, and how by hearing, unless by preaching? And who sent the ministers of the Church of England to preach ? Again, do I repeat the question — though I know that 1 repeat it in vain — where did Luther gel his mission ? Did you not get baptism from us, and did you not also get the right to preach? What proof have you that you possess that right ? According to your own doctrines you cannot huve more than a moral probability that you ore in the true church ; but no act of iaith could ever be made on a moral proba- bility. God could never reveal any thing which was only morally probable. In the Church of England there is only a moral proba* bility — therefore the Church of England cannot be the revealed re- ligion of God. I challenge Mr. Gregg to answer that argument. You can never make an act of faith in a fallible church — you can never build infallibility on fallibility. Mr. Maguire's half hour ended here. Mr. Gregg — I congratulate the people of Ireland that this dis- cussion has taken place. I congratulate them because I feel assur- ed that before it shall have terminated they will be convinced that the Church of Rofne is false, and I have undertaken to prove it. Mr. Maguire has just spoken for half an hour, and I am sure that no one here who has heard him understands one word of what he has said. '* He darkens counsel with words without meaning," He accuses me of not proving any thing ; but it is he who proves noth-> ing He grapples wit!i bis own ideas— he' first raises up giants, and then proceeds to kill them. He asserts that I stand up for private judgment alone; but I stand here a member of the Church of Eng- land, and to support its doctrines, as I hope I shall do to the end of. my life. I refer to the words of Luther, where, in speaking of pri- vate judgment, lie says that the right of judgment is impiously wrested by the pastors from the people. He speaks of the queen church, and I say that always existed. I undertake to prove every article of the faith which I support on the scriptures. Luther sayti that the church was plunged for ages in idolatry, and 1 assert cum i H; ■ij i'i ■; !i: ■J •' THE DISCUSSION. i ivtmoanimi meo to tl.at proposition. Tliere urc two kindii of unive- «altty whicli arc to be di«itin;iniKlie() — moral wiid naetaphyMcol uivi^er* inlily. The church ofEn^Iand claims thr former spocies of iinlver«a" l!|y alone Mr. Mntfuire cmp'oy* nn Inpcnious «>lIo{:li»m to prove thnt ,llte church of £n^l:iiu1 coiuruditsi iIj* word* <»f < hrlut { but, urxil !)€ diveitu his mind of mrre rontplicntrd idea^, and hecoi^en tnore -aimplf, 04 a follnwer of the ^o^ipel should, he will not be nhlcto ot* lain the trutti. He lias told you, my fricndH, that, ticoording tome, the church of Christ has hern invisible. Hut here we nre a glorious i)roofoft'ie conrrary— Jhtc is the united church of Knglund and Tfland, fl triumnhant dt?moni.trution of the visibility of the church t>fChriflt. I sliall noM' come to cltc demonstration of my proposi- tion.^viz., tliat the united churches of England and Irchind is the true churc!t of Chris>t in these kingdom9. First, they have a fel- lowghip with the Apostle* ; for although a separate socictVi thev profess the doctrines of the church, and, as the scriptures snow, it »n not necessary for such society to go over to any other. Second- ly, I will prove that the doctrines of the church of England are the doctrines of Christ, and thi** I will maintain against the whole world. Before I proceed to prove the I'rst part, viz., that our church has a fellowship with the apostles — for which purpose I will make use of this book, viz , the Roman Catholic Directory fur 18S7— I will call your attention to this book which ] hold in my hand, and which is called the Pontijicale Romapum. Now, you recollect that Mr. Ma- guire asked me what nation did we convert 1 1 an8W«-r the question very easily- Suppose I say we converted New Zealand, and New Holland, and many nations in the Southern Ocean, do I not give him ft sufficient answer I [>ut in this book I find a chapter, De lienedicti- one Ensis, the consecration or blessing of the sword ; here we have all the solemn rites of a bichop sprinkling holy water — a man knecN ing down, and the sword laid on his shoulder — the bishop pronounc- iogthc words, " receive thi« sword in the nanqe of the Fat her, and of the Son, and of the tioly Ghost, to defend our holy church from hei" enerhies," &c. This is the way, my friends, in which the Roman Catholics convert nations — it is thus, by the sword, that thty con- verted the Albigenses — and they converted them with a vengeance, from wolves to lambs ; for a million of the persecuted people were extinguished. I hold in my hand8 two books— naniety, a Protes* ttnt prayer-book, and a Roman missal. Observe this book weH, my friends. There is always something curious in things which come from Rome ; hut thi^ is a very curious book-^for you must know that it is one out of which the devil has been driven ! I do not wish to offend my l^oman Catholic brethren, but I cannoi helj> expressing my firm conviction that the devil '^s really in this book. I protest not against what good is in the Church of Rome, but I protest against her abusess, against her sorceries, her witchcrafts, her driving of the devil out of salt and water, and sticks, and old boiiea, &c. I do not deny that there is some good in the chdrch of Rome, and with that I agree ; but I conrlenm her superstitrun, and id9httrjr« and apo$tacies. But to return to my argument. This R.0-, FIS$T PA Y-TUE$pAY f^ wan Catholic Directory contoip* lists of hUhops j opd» hy ipqnft cliance, or that the Lord tiiometimrs bh'nUs mirn'f Lyes that gof)4 tnsiy cnmo from it ; it aUo containn tlie lint of inrpe Woleitaiu b|* »hop*. Mr Mti^uiru iif>kti nic where we );»t our mf«>,ion f ||in«; swer from our own primitive hisSons it won liandcd Uqwd to t|f« fi^[ very ^reat nunther of the Cathohc bishopH were oonvertf^ M^jip Hi'foinir tit^n, miuI ciiido over to u», and tlirough ihem wa« th^ i^M*^, sion hatuU'd (hmn, iiiul my reverend friend well know» th^f *f9pi^. one caiiu< over in thtit u ny, it would t)e ^ufficienl | for St. l^^ul WIRJ hnt one whin he tvciit to convert nntionA pnd to ordain p^'^stpn^ Mere we hiiv(> » list of the .nchbishopii of Dublin, I «uppo|e (rojPipi tho time of St, Piitriek ; nnd we find that the la«t of tlip C^fl^pffji^, l)i!iliof>s, G. Brown, is the first of the Protestant bitthops. He <;at|!|§| rtver to ug, just qm if Dr. Murray should now ceaip making hpl^ w|* ter, nnd he wm put out of his see by Qu'.'en Mary* bvoauie he %^t a married man. Now, I wisli that my reverend friend wrap a oyfr* ried man. I thank God that I nni one myself; and I don*t aef wW, T should be worse in the sight of G'>d, because 1 can prpstr^f^ tiu'*, self on my knees to adore Him, with my wife, and siirrpunded pV my chiMren, whom I tench to adore and worship Mm. W^)!. ttie next bishop to George Brown was Hu{{h Kirwnn, who was pjac^4 in thediocess by the choiie of Mary, nnd in the next line w^ jfin^ him cut off ns an apostate, an(| the very seconit on the list oft^^ Protestant arclibishops of Dublin. He renounced the errofii.of hit' church, AS the greater number of the Catlioltc binhops did ; and i might go on with the whole liAt, to show you that since l^litt lioie there has been a regular and uninterrupted chain of bishtlpi 'o|'tn^ i cliurch of Enuhind in the see, while intervals of centuries picufni^'. in the descent of the Ituman Catholic bishops — Intervals of cj))hf(j^, sion and disorder ; and while bishops and pastoi's were fojsted Qveir' here from Ron)e to (ill the places of those who f ipbraced ther^f^nii* ' ed doctrines. We leave got the reguhir descent, we have g6t the cathedrals, aiid the records and registries, and, [ was i^ing tp ad^^ ' the'tithei}! There is our church en'ierging gloriously vr6th itif corruption of ai)ominution. [Here Mr. (iregg again exhibited ^e rullof paper, which was daubed with red and yellow,] There you' see it coniing out from tlie midst of hpostacy 1 We have the ^'^V , ops — we have the apostolical mission —and we consider that us ili^« poriant, not for any humbug of parade, hut as a strtlciing p;r^qf of ' the truth. You all know Paley s argument for the truth ofChli]^' tianity, drawn foom the regular concatinatipn of cotempofar^ Wj*}* tcri; ; and that argument has the same forice here. It Js we -ifr^o , li^ve the truth wjth us; it is we who have conie ou^ {tt Pabylpl^ ; ' and do you also, my Ciitholie brethren, come out from tl^e 6fipy1o)ri [ of corruption. Ti)keu,p our prayer-books, and you will finjl them' teeming with the purest piety ; take iip those of your owii churt^^ a^d you willtind them full of dinicultiusand obstacles, amipassagef ' which you are desired not to read. ^ ou will find,in them a St. 4ga- tha^ nnd a St. Martha, and a s»t. Valentine too ; for therew^s also ^ ' St.. Valentiiie; and you will find a pomjnifi'k, the Graipdjii'.tt^'if^pir ' C^fttl ^od, wliat men to raise to the throne af j^irist ?"W^'.co|^ I! I Ml # tME DISCL'SSION. ' IP 'I i flfiquMefs l)ow ftom all this corruption ? Our country {« a degraded natipit^their principlen are vitiated and lo«t. lieliold Italy, a de- gradtd country, and &'pa2n a dei^rnded country, and I'ortugul, and cr^t*^ oilier nation where the religion of iloniuprevniln, a dcj^rndud t^untiy. The curie of God hat fuilen heavy upon them, ond they •re degraded and debased among the nations of the earth ; uiid then lufn yoi^r eyes on England, and ask, why is she glorious, and prus' peroiw, apd triumphant 1 Why, with Ireland, is nhe the greatest ^il^^re in the world ? Because in her the purity of tliu Christian nAigipn jprevails— >becauie no impious or improper prayers are there i^rfd Defore the throne of Gud. Yes, I will procluim it — from thi hbu(^-top will I cry it out— my llonian Cadiulic hrctlircn, coniu but jlroitt Babylon. To-morrow I will take Mr. Maguire on his fiitie miracles — miracles which they thcmselvis do not hilieve in. Rev. Mr. Maouiav — Fellow-Christians, and it is Irom my heart Fcfitlyoti so, I am nut one who erects hiiiifcif in a court oCjiidica- tilrf%i find sett himself up to pronounce judgment upon (he religious bf^efof any man— .1 do not say (hat one man isi right and anothtr Wropgp I have given my reverend opponent a few syilogisniii, wl)ieh Id^Aot wonder at his disliking ; they are tough cuHiunicrs. You hpve a major ond a minor proposition, either of which you may deny, but.Uie ^onstquenpes you cannot touch, if it be logically and truly ^educjed. But 1 will stick to the syllogitimfi, and \iill let him keep tp bis aiaiertions, at which he seems particularly powerful. He did not aUQt^ a single text during the whole half hour, and yet he sayti, al^^.toiii^Iy^that he stands on the Bible, ile tells us that the upos- Itei^of ^itr church were the primitive bishops of theirs. 1 thank fatft^ iToji^ ^e admission, and i wish l)im joy of Bisihop Browne, and t^f biljieri whom wc turned out of our church because (hey violated a ^bjomn vow to the Almighty. He talks of our celibacy — why 0)VMt> ^t* Paul, and St. John were alt of the corporation of bache- Inra. ^11 the rest of the apostles who had wive!>, left them upon beiiig called by their Master. All those who have leit our church ofi ihe c<' itrary, have taken wives. Luther, not content with break- ii;g,]|^lt.own vow, inade poor Catherine break hers, and gave the Landgri^ye of Hesse Cassel liberty to marry two wives. He said that; we have nothing to do with the ten commandments — ti.e goi pc|r<^nd.ppthing else, was all we had any thing to do with. My u- v^^eji^^friend h^t acknowledged that thu^e who were kicke>! cui of otM^ cl^y^chi like aome of our modern heroes, became the primitive bitb.ppi oif tht^rs. Though too bad for us, they were good enough for tliem. Theyviolated a vow, and it is said that *' every man who vfQlates a W (v'< vow to God has damnation." Yet those men who acte(| thus becai:);:- di'^ni^nrics uf their church without even ordina- tion. Tiiey ackno^i^dgv V " ordination by never ordaining again any priest, who goei over lo thei^, while we always ordain anew any who coi|a^ bvs' to ti: ; and let aie ask, did ever any clergyman of otir church giv.. up his calling and his religion without alterwards debasing himself with the lies and libels he heaped on the one he bad left.,. 3ut this is all talk. It is merely conversational. I will U'l^elbilii idsaertiun, and t will come to argunivni. What are the FIRST DAY— TUESDAY. 4I ^roit '^ inciple^ nfClirlsti'inity 1 Fimt, tlmt Clirint gav0 « tnfc m- liglim 10 the Apn8tl«'» — and, ^ccotidly, that tluy gnve it a« they r«- ceivrd it to the MorUI — lliirdly, thnt thiii rcli]{t'un Ims ct;riaiii inarlu to induce nil to belirve in it. Wimt are tlioni' markii 1 Unit/, Ho- lincM, Cntlioticity, and Apoitolicity. Our church hai all ofthoM. He huR not shown thnt he has any of ihcm. When I atk him what country Iiis religion hns converted, he anstveri *' N^k^ Zealand*" Why, we have as many misfcionarici there as they have, and thi^ make more conversions, for they are not satisfied with merely Kiviog men n Ribic, and hearing him say God bless you and no nmrp aboi^t it. T'lev fi'i upon principle. Look at the ancieiit Christiains— . 4\*ia* f t! ;i1 ihii convert had to undergo previous to baptism— the p:iiris iha*. were taken with him, and the instruction he received. T^enrl '^t Auguatin De civitate 7)ei, and others of his works, and comptire our manner of nuikinir converts with the method adopted with regard to the New Zealand converts by them. I will now proceed. He talked of Luther. 1 said before that Luther h^d not maintained the doctrine of public judgment. Well, Mr. Oregg qurtt'S from him a passage to the effect that the lieQrers are tlif judges. Is it censu romposito or cemu divisio f ]s it all the he»r» ITS thnt are the judges? Then all must be united among theiiir selves ; if only each single hearer, then that is right private JMdgf ment, nnd that right Lnth'^r maintained. I aakrd him whether tnif Holy Ghost gave private or public judgment, or both. If the (iritf then frivate judgment was infallible ; if the second, then it wuain* fulliblc, nnd wci<;hcd down the individual judgment; if both, wh(^ is to decide between them if they differ ? He acLnits no private judgment unless it accords with the public. But if It differ,, who 14 to decide ? With regard to the non-existence of the church for ftc years,, he spoke of univer^^nlity, moral and metaphysical. Mind th?, words of the church of Enj^lnnd ore, that there v.as no individuafu young or old, clergy or laity, that was not buried in idolatry for ^00 years. I called on hitn to show me the lawfulness of his mission : he did not do so. I ctillcd on him to show me that one link in tho chain ofbis'iops of hi'; chnrch was unbroken ; he did not do so. |. sa V him hesitating mul sta^^gering, when endeavoring to explain the fact of the rejected bishops of our church becoming the bishops of his. Wit!) refjard ,,) the twenty-two negative articles of the church of England, he made a great flourish. He said he would prove theih all from scripture ; but he became appolled, and did iiot attempt to prove one of thtiii. He quit the subject os a child would run awi|y. from n mnd dog; Why did he not prove some of those reformed ar- ticles, which hi»> clui" h compels all its members to swear to? I call on him to do so new ; but I'll hear as little of it as you will. Again he talks of the conseeratioti of chapels, and of the consecra-, tion of a sword. M\ answer to him is, wait till the coionotion come«» nnd you will see how they uiU bless the Queen's shawl and herdi-, niity, and her crown, and |)ii*y that she n)By go on and prosper, and have u happy reign. Now, I will prove the lawfulness of that prac- tice, to which my reverend friend objected from scripture, I refer you to the l^th chap, of J^ umbers, where, to eyre t^ie bite of |i;dp£»: s fi • ! 1, Hi. '«i \ ! i tifii DHtl'ij.^sioi^. #ilWr (itid ctrty *niT to call ihetTi ; and ar^u d ns^ainst it on at'connt of iheni. Our ItJiist'd SrtVi'our fhose \'i apcisJcs to repreient liint. One betrayed, ^.— — . ,..>5:f)IlsftJWa^T THEDISCUSSION, i, lif BfTWIKir , THB REV. MESSRS. MAGUiRE AND GREGa SBOom Day— Wb0nuday» SOth Mat. tacli- rittcn s gns- ot the th hid JOSlltS, eyou le will tl the V. J .'hriot Scrip- ci|)lt'.-, Eng- hiireh :-xcej)t y n^y (> that ion — of the , )e has e tact •] ^ ) i^^'i^ its V!%si> *»..-■• :■ Wddnoedny being the second dny of the discuseioD, it wM resumed atih' n|ipoin(ed hour. The room was inueh niof • attack the church to which he belongs,and through him to ex. pose her heresy ahd schism. The church of England k nr. ' raigned this day befoie the tribunal of public opinion. She shall be weighed in the balance of the lioly scriptures^ and < tfhkW be found miserably wanting. You, my brethren, irill> plea«e to observe that when an antagonist is detected in a fun. •liiinentHl error he is bound by the laws of truth and of religion- to rt^iinquish all further opposition. Now, I think I will prove I o your satisfaction, and the satisfaction of the reverehd genJ < ileman himself, that he has fallen into a very great «iror ; and> if i do, I hope he will at once acknowledge it, and come over^ to our side. The Rev. Mr. Gregg haii asserted that the true, • holy. Catholic church was invisible for eight hundred years or more. Now Str Paul says, in his Second Epistle to the Cor*) inthians, 4th chapter and Sd verse, ** But if our gospel be hid,' it is hid to them who nie lost.** The meaning of this is clear from the next verse :* " In whom the goil of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the ligiit jf jthOi glorious gospel of Ghiist, who is the image of God, shoidd shine into thorn." It ^gnifips that the gospel of Jesus was ta be preached everywhere, and the glory of religion was every^ wMre to be ilnnonneed, t6 that the trtHb of it would bepomar 1. 1 ( ^ THE DISCUSSION. il K 80 palpable and obvious (hat only those who were sunk in eter. nal penlition, and who could not, because they would not, see, would avoid beholding it. Now I y^^^ hi*^ *P reconcile bis assertion to this saying of St. Paul, and t defy Kim to do so. It is impossible. But I will go further. I never promise to prove any thing without doing so ; and I now undertal:c to prove, to a perfect demonstration, the absolute, perpetual visi. bility and indefectibility of the holy Catholic church ; and if, then, the holy Catholic church does possess tl never-^ndibg.Vi. sibility and indefectibility, his churcli cannot be it, for he ad' mits it was invisible for 800 years or more. Now, gentlemen, mark my proof. Let me, my Proteetant brethren, call your at* tention particularly to this. I am now about to quote from the prophets in support of my proposition. You may, perhaps, say that all the prophecies which I will cite, relate to the Jew. isb church alone. But I deny this ; and I will prove to you from the New Testament that they refer to the Christian church, and to Christ, who was the son of David*. I refer you to the let chapter and tst verse of the gospel by Matthew — " Th^ book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." This> then, proves that Jesus Christ was the son of David and of Abraham, and that the promises made in the name oi David referred to him. But I will go further ; I will refer you to the 1st chapter of the gospel by Luke, be. ginning at the 30th verse — " And the an^l said unto her, fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God ; and behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and eball call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be call- ed the Son of the Highest ; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father Davkl ; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end.** Now, these quotations show to whom the texts I ■ball subsequently quote must refer. You will also perceive that these promises could not refer to the Jews ; for St. Paul says, ** The new church is established upon far better promises than the old.** If, then, I prove that the church could not be in. visible, and that it could never fail and become apostate, I will aucceed in proving that my reverend friend has falleri into a. fiindamental eiror. I now proceed with my demonstratiour I refer you to the 34th verse of the Stth psalm — " My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that ha» gone out of my ^pe. Once I have sworn by my holiness that 1 will not \m iinto David. His seed shall endnre for ever, and his throne as the s«n before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and a« a faithful witness in heaven »'^ Again, (27tb ▼ene,) also I will make him, my firstborn, btgbev than the liinge 1 'I s 1 SECOND DAY— WEDNESDAY. ^ of (b^ 'SftVth. Now, yon will bear in mind that the~ Bible 1 am reading- from is not ttie Doiuiy Biblr, but the avubori««d version pnblishectin the reign of Jusnes the First, by connnand of the king. Biit to come once more to my texts. VVliat does Sit. Pnul say? .'* The children of the pi omise account forthf^ seed." Again, look to the 73d psalm — "They shall fear thee as Ibng at the sun and moon eiidurc,throughtut all generations. He shall have dominion froiii sea to sea, and from the river even to the end oMhe earth." That cannot refer to the Jews; for their kingdom did not extend from sea to sea. Again, *' All kings shailfall down before hiin — all nations shall serve him.>* 1 now refer you to the 49th chap, and 14th ^'erse of Isaiah, *< The LfOrd l^ath loved him ; he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his ariiis shall be on the Chaldeans." Now let mei ask (ny reverend friend, what church, for the fifteen hundred years pre.' vious to Elizabeth, ever taught the Thirly.nine Articles) Lei me ask, for the eight hundred years during which he says there was no one who was not sunk in some damnable idola* try, where were the watchmen that were to keep watch on the walls of Jerusalem 1 Did not Christ say to his church "Thou shah be the city sought for aiid not forsaken.^ Where, let me aak, was it to be sought for during the period referred to, and where wias it to be found 1 Again, Isaiah says-;- and I beg of you tp remark this, my brethren, that they are afraid to trnhs- late the names mentioned in the passage, giving them in the old Greek form. Isaiah then premises that' the church shall spread through Italy, Spain, Portugal and France, " to the, isles afar off ;" and these islands are England, Ireland, and Scotland, which are called the islands afaK oflT, because they were considered the nnost distant parts of the west previous to the discovery of America. Isaiah adds^~" I will take of them to he priests and Levites ;"^ and Jeremiah says, " I will giye fear to their hearts, that they may not revolt from me." But, according to my reverend friend, these piomises were all lies ; for they did, revolt from him, and their revolt continued for eight hundred years. Thus Christ had prophesied that he would leave after him a visible successor to himself on the throne of the church, and that none should ever be wanted, and that there should always be a priest in the new law, tp of. fer sacrifice from the risin;^ to the getting of the sun. Here I have Hezekiab U|)on the point — "And he will rise up over them one pastor." Thus Christ is the one pastor, and he has left his visible vicegerent upon the enrih. The same prophet pro. phe^ies that there slialJ never be idolatry in the new chm^h. I wish uiy reverend fiienVl would tell ine how many pastors tlieie are in ihc ciiurch of England 1 The Queeu is the pre. I, r I i ■^l paftor^.*Ood know* who wiU be tbo no^t I Tht Lord hM aaid that his kii))Bfi{om will endure for ever — that i^ thnt all hereotea shall yield to the true church. Th9 heresies of thither, of K^iox, of Calvin^ and of Zuingliu:!, even as th^'lb^resy of Ariiu and other heresies, yietded to it before. Let rAe nsk ^bat I/itberanism is now to what Arianism was when it cou^d nw^bef wiiliFa its pale fully 3,000 bishops 1 And: where is Ari^txi^in npvir 1 Toe true church ha^ Iriurnphsd over it, and i^ Will equally triumph Qver Lutharanidm ; but not by the swQrdl^ a^ Qiy opponent [ma insinuated. Oh| if be recollected t^ penal laA^3'->if be recollected nil the money and the blood Wbioh iiad been wrung from this country alone— if he recollect' ed h^o\7 England was proselyted by the plunder and persecu- tion QAd robbery which were pracused<^the seizure of church- es tqo. for they never built one cathedral of their own — he ^ottld never be so imprudent as to speak of our church using the 8W^d or stretching forth the hand of violence. I should fkngue you if I were to give you aU the texts which bear upon the. proposition I have undertn^en to prove. B»t having given you 80 many from the Old, Testament, I shall now give you <^e or two from the New. You will find there that Qbristfaid his church was a city built upon a mountain, and that it should qever j>e hid ; but my reverend frfend anya that it has been hid, and hid for the space of eight hundred years or more. ^ I leave it to hitriself to reconcile his assertion with the oromisa of our Saviour. I think I have now proved the perfect yisibl* lity and indefectibility of the true church.^ Mv friend admit* t^at at one time our church was the true church ; but he sayt mat ic afterwards apostatised. But I have proved that, it c^otild hot apostatise. I nave adduced the proinises of Christ hfm. self m support of my proposition; and I therefore caltupon htm tQ retrace his steps, and, acknowledge hi? error. Btit, if he doisf^ not do 80, 1 call upon him to name a single church that has ever professed belief of the Thirtylnine Articles previous to the days of Elizabeth. I challenge him to prove the truth of the twenty-two negative articles^ and he must give me scrip- tare also ; for I take him at his own word, that there \ I ask you on vhtt prinoiple you deny the canooicit^ of those books, or on tvhtt priiiciple yon can prove the inspiration of any book ia the Bible 1 rehallettge you to prove that the Book of Kevelationa is insnirod^ You nav say to me—why, you admit the book yourself, ana why. do you ask ine to prove it? 1 answer, that I admit the book on the infaUibIs authority of Christ and nis church, and on the authority of tradition. You deny the authority of tradition, and refuse to. admit the inftilU* |>le Authority of the ohurch ; and I will try on what prindplo you admit the canonicity of the book in question. Thusi, theot mv friends* stands the case, as far as Protestantism is concerned. I have proved that it is not the true church. It may have the Dowev and the pelf; but even that may be only for a tine. Aodn ror ayi own part, I will say, conscious that we may all soon die,, " What if the whole world to a man if he should lose his own scul.** Rev. Mr. Greqo— My friendl, the Rev. Mr. Mu^ire hi|8 boon qrguing this la&t half-hour in the exercise of a vicioua sophisia* which, in the schools, is known by the name of an argument a ditdo ^ei/ttnlum qm mitthat the church was alniost invisible; but still it existed. And now It^t me explain to you the nature of the mistake into which my '-%. n f^ 'i ' 'l u 90 •^ THK DISCUSS! OR T-*- ir; I iii k i' ' ..'i revcvcad friend hai fullen. I grant him the corredhesi of every oiitf of the textalre hat quoted ; but still I think he is wrong in saying he took them from our Bible. -•i)'-a • i.-- '^i. > Rev. Mr. Maouirb— I quoted them froni the Bible which was published by the King's authority, in the rei^n of James the First. . Rev. Mr. Grkog^ — ^Thac is not the authorised version, y Rev. Mr. Maouire — T hold that it is. Rev. Mr. Grkoo— It is not our version. The word holocaust does not occur in the entire of our version, and it occurs in that* Now, my friends, he talks about our use of Greek words But there is a word which does not occur in the whole of our Bible, but which is retained in the Douay Bible for the purpose of mystification, t refer you to the 49th chapter and 26th verse of Genesis-^" The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors, unto the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills. They ahall be on the head oi Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that' was separate from his brethren." Tills was a promise ; and there are. several other similur promises whicli are true only secun* dum quid; so it is with regard to the visibility and perpetuity of the church, which are perfectly consistent with the upostacy which, I say, id foretold in the book of Revelations, in the Old Testament we find Elijah saying, *' Behold I am alone in the worship of the trueGod,'' when at that time there were 7,000 knees that never bent to Baal, and 800 prophets hid in caves. There then was the church invisible, and one church was similarly situated ; for though our nuitab^rs were few, there were always some who "maintained the truth as it is in Jesus. Now, my dear sir, pardon me, but I must express my wish for your conversion, and ^believe that it will takd place. Let me show you one text which you have greatly misun-* derstood, and the proper understanding of which lies at the founda- tion of the salvation of the soul of man. And, gentlemen, this is not the only text which he would fail in explaining. There is not a single similar text in the whole Scripture which he could possibly understand. He could not— 1 defy him ; and no man can that i» not taught by the living spirit. The text to which I allude will be found in the 2d and 3d verses of the 4>th chapter of the second epis* tie to the Corinthians—-'* But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty— not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully" — and woe be to them who do handle it deceitfully, and I charge the Romish Church with doing so— " But bynianifestatiou of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's cbnscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid ro them that are lost." Mr. Maguire explained this as signifying that the Christion doctrine and church should be so easily discovered, that only the wil- ibliy blind could avoid seeing it ; whereas it has no more reference to the visibility of the church than it has to St. Peter^s at Rome, or St. Paul's in London. My reverend friend wants to have it implied that I had admitted that the gates of hell had prevailed against the church. I admitted no such thing; I merely say that the .Scripture f<>retel8 the aposfacy that came upon the churcl?, and i a«*en ttiut SECOND DAY-WEDNESDAY. if during that apontaov the church ceased to be gloriously visible. ' < il do not bring forward one hut a hundred texts to bear me out it my position. 1 refer you to the \ I th chapter of Revelations, 2d verse— '* And the holy city shall they tread under foot, forty and two months '^ and I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they sliall propheiy a thousand two hundred and three score days, cloth- ed in sackcloth." Here, then, we have two single witnesses who were to show forth the truth among the Gentiles, and to continue the church. Thus when I said the church was invisible, I said in a certain sense, and not absolutely. Suppose the case of tM'o wrest- lers: — One gets the other down on his knees or haunches, llie other struggles on, rises again, and overthrows his antagonist. Would any one in that case say that the wrestler who was thrown on his knees was overcome 1 That is precisely the way with the true church. Besides, at the very time of the apostles, there sprung up many other churches, besides that one which was established by Christ hfmself, and we read of one of them which has continued eveii from that time down to the present, still maintaining the doctrines taught by our Saviour. I hold in my hand a work written by a cler- gyman, it is ** Buchanan's Christian Researches in Asia,'' in which he gives a description of the Syrian church, which has subsisted ever since its foundation by St. Thomas the apostle ; and which complained very much of the violence of the Roman Catholic Church in establishing the inquisition at Goa. Thus the church is invisible in one sense, and visible in another. And so it is in this very moment, spiritually speaking, in the church of England. There are' some who are truly converted to God, and truly impregnated with the spirit of the Holy Ghost, and those are not visible, though there are many such — the others, who are not so thoroughly con^ verted to God, are visible — the former invisible, because they have nothing to distinguish them from the ordinary members of the church, as they wear no blessed stole or garment of peculiar shape. The reverend gentleman has alluded to the penal code. It tvould have been better for him not to have done so ; for let me ask htm from whom that penal code came — with whom did persecution ori^ ginate? Come, answer me that. It came from the mother of abor mination:^. I grant you, and I admit, that our church did per^ecute^ but from whom did she learn the lesson — under what act of pariiit- ment did the persecution commence I Under an act of parliament passed in the reign of Kenry the Fourth, a Popish king ; and that statute enacted that any bishop — one of those that blessed the sword, and the clay and the water — might condemn any heretic. Mr. Maguire mocks at me about.the Bible. " You come," he says, " with the Bible, and put it into the hands of those whom you wish to convert, and then you are satisBed.'' But you, I say, come with the sword, and you make those whom you visit as tame, as lamlM. Henry the Fourth, you all know, reigned in the year 1599, two hun^ dred years before Luther's time, and he passed a law that any. bisbop could convict any subject of heresy ?, and in case of his.jnot ahjupj i»ig, he could order the sheriff 40; conduct liim to the^ denies, wjiiidht M .':i,h •M;l! It-ii I ,1 ^ THE DISCUSSION. ■ii 1 drdtr shoald be immediately obeyed. That w the ttetate under whidi peraecution commenced ; and it, you perceive, was enacted in a I'opi«h reign. I admit that the texts which my reverend friend quoted have reference to the glory and perpetuity of the church, and that they are perfectly true in one sense, and the more espedal« If when the church has come out from the midst of Babylon. For this one thing I tell you — the great check to the progress of the true religion is the Romish church. The Rev. Mr. Ma^uire alluded to the cathedrals and houses of prayer, which were built by bachelors. It is true we have them, and we will have those which they are now building, not that we will take them by f' ce, but that they will come o. e * to us as they did before. But %vhile they are buiidinr their churches, we are building another, and a spiritual cathedral, the stones of which are living stones, and which shall for ever en- dure. Vmw the labours of our missionaries, spreading on every aide, and i^isseminating the truth through all quarters of the earth. Yet these i^re the married parsons at '.vhom my friend sne^. But ny Roman 'iJathoIic brethren, I do not want to disparage——. Rev. Mr. Maouire — My friends, I put it to you did the Rev. Mr. Gregg, di^ring the last half hour, answer a single one of the many questions which 1 pnt to him 1 Did you hear one single word about the Thirty -nine Articis ? Did lie tell you of a single church, from the days of Christ to the days of fiTtzabeth, who also belonged to the corporation of bachelors 1 I wanted to know where was the reformed church for eight bundled years. He told you that it was visible and invisible; and then, in explaining the text which I quot« ed from St. Paul, to prove that it could not be invisible, he ^oke •f dictum tecundum quid and dictum simpHciter-^wi that every poor Protestant who does not know the meaning of this dictum secundum fuid roust be damned. He talked to you of sophisms gnd sOpbis< try ; but if I were to evade one hundred texts quoted against me by dictum secundum quid and dictum simpUciitTy he would loudly cry out against me for my trickery, and stamp in indignation at my conduct. He says that no man can know the Scriptures without tlie grace of God. Who ever denied it ? But where is the grace and the spirit of God to be found ] What will be say to the Uni- tarians, the Quakers, the Presbyterians, and the Wesleyans, all of whom claim the spirit ? What will he say to the Quakers ? The Quakers have a far better claim, one would think, to the possession of the spirit than he or his church. Let him answer those qttes« lions. I thauk my reverend friend for his good opipion ofmyun* derstanding, I thank hinvfor his rash judgment.. The scripture says, *' ju^e not, thet 3rou may not be judged.'' I do not pro. Bounce judgment on Mr. Gregg. I confess that 1 am a sinner, Mr.- Gregg telle jou that he has the spirit of God. You may, sir, have att much, or more, of the privyte spirit; but it is impossible for a man to know it himself. Christ said to his apostles—" I have yet ^ things to tell you, which ydu could not bear, but when I am fy.l will eend'doEwn thehely 'spirit, and he will teach you many '^ He tn^Mf orad to explain the sayistg of St. Paul—** ^jut ^■AL SECOND DAY— WEDNESDAY. S^ iTnur gospel be lost, it !> to tliem that ore lost.*' But still he clitl not shake my intiiprvtaiion, nor wcvkvn the fv rce of a n'wclc one of the text* whicli I qijotcd to nupport it. Tlie true poiipvl, then, is only to be found in the trii(> cliiucii, n;ul Christ Mys— .<*He thnt be- lieveth not n'-all ho condk-mni'd."' and '♦ lie thnt hcnreth you Iicor* I'th me, und he that dv^ipisiiitli you despiseth mo." This was plainly telling where I lie ^ospii was t(» he found. '^ly friend admits that the K*>(*pL'l ^vas with w* once. I have provid that it could not have letl us. (le has not contruvaned my proof:). Besides, as I haveofVen said before, we have not heu'd a single tvord from him about the Thirty-nine Ariiclort. After all I have said, he has not attempted to prove a single one of the tuentv-twu negative articles. With re- gard to the »ibilhy of tl\? cliurch, he talks to us of .Mr. I^uchai.an and the Syrian church. What business have I taking Mr. Bucha- nan's word for uhat he says he saw. Grot us ns!.eiifu.'''~~h is a gra- tuitous as9erti(.. .1 don'i believe a single word. Besides he does not show that this Syrian churcii, on which he so much relie.', pro- fesses one single doctrine in accordance with his own church. Let him pri»ve to me that the Syrian church denies the supreme autho* rityofthe head of the church, or that it professes its belief in the Thirty-nine Articles, and it will go to prove something for him; but until then the existence of such a church is of no consequence to him or to me Christ said to Peter-—'* Piter loveth thou me," and Peter answered, " Lord thou knowest all tilings — thou knowest that I love -thee ;^' and then Ciiri^t said, ** Feed my lambs, feed my sheep ;" that is. he placed him over his church, both clergy and laity ; and Peter's successors have ever since filled the throne of that church. Now, during the 150() years thai Cl.rist's vieegercnts sat in the tlirone and the church flourished, where was the church of England ? Oh, it cxi^ted, he says, both visibly and invisibly ; imd to prove that it exi^ited, he mentions some priest, named Soter, that was burned in the reign of Henry IV., just as if every on^ that was burned was a Protestant. Why he might as well say that every wi- dow that was burned in India during that period was a Protestant on account of her having been burned. He says that our church converted nations by the sword. I ask was it by the sword that Boniface converted France 1 Was it by the sword Austin convert- ed England — St. Patrick, Ireland— and was it by the sword that Xavier converted India 1 He admits that his church persecuted, 1 deny that ours did ; though I admit that Catholics persecuted, and by persecuting proved themselves unworthy members of the church to whieh they belonged. We abominate the persecuting many. But 1 never yet heard a Protestant reprobate Elizabeth, who perse* cuted more in one year than Mary did during her whole reign. Does he recollect the case of Jenkins, the bookseller? He may read it. in Baker, and other writers. When he was tried and seit|enced to be nailed to a wall by his ears, and not to lie <'ut down till he cut off his ears with his own hand, the Lord suffered a plague to break out on the spot, and judge and jury and witnesses, were struck tleadJ. ia the court, and 15,000 individuals were ce'ried off by the visira-' i di Is I "'i i ! I .1 I i i S* THE DISCUSSION. tion. But whtt wns most rrmarkable, even the haughty Elizabeth was «o appalled by the jucl|(ment, that she never had courage to car- ry the ^vntence into operation. Dut no more about ubuMcg for they are no argument n^einRt the church in wl.icb they exiitt, or have ex- isted. Any one may err, but the error he commit* will prove notli- ing. I auk not to charge his church with abuses. I demand prin- ciples— I asked him cuuld he prove, on principle, the {ranonicity of one single book of the holy scriptureti. Uid he give an answer ? I ask now is not his religion that which ron6rms, in their heresies, the Unitarians, the Baptists, and all other lieretii.s ? Was it not his re* ligion which first broached the doctrine of the right of private judg- ment, and is it not in thu vxcrci^e of that right that tlie Unitarians maintain their heresy ? 1 condcMun, I anathematize, I abominata their doctrine as much as he, though 1 do not condemn themselves. But I tell him, the Unitarians arc more consistent than he, for th<;;y ■Mert the right of private judgment, and at once deny the divinity of the Son of God. I say it was his abominable lying church which created (his heresy, anil which set all the world mad that assented to its doctrine. Aly reverend friend talked of promises to Joseph, but that promise related to the church of Christ, and was propheti- cal, signifying that it should last for ever. There was nothing there- fore in the argument which he founded upon that. He says if it was strictly taken, that it would go to support heresy, i do take it strictlv, for^ I take it according to the direction of St. Paul. He ■ays that his church is the Catholic church in this kingdom. I ask him* in what other kingdom is it catholic 1 Again, I c tells us, and k is the only middling argument that he made use of since the com- mencement of this discusbion. that Isaiah said, " even I only am m prophet of the Lord," and therefore the church was invisible. It it true he put it lamely enough, but then 1 will put it better for him. There was in the world at this time but the Jewish church. It waa invisible, and if the church could be invisible under the old law, il could be invisible under the new law. I think that i§ putting his ar- gument aa strongly as possible, and I am rejoiced to nave anything in the shape of argument to answer. It is the first he has yet given me, and I will now answer it. When he gave us the text he didt he 4id not give us the context. And if he looked a little lower down, he would find that not only were there 7,000 knees that never bent to Baal, but he would find in the prophet Ahab, that there were SOQ other prophets concealing themselves in caves from the persecution that was raging at the time. How, then, could the Jewish church be invisible t Besides, where was then the entire of Israel, which professed the same religion 1 If he looked to the 1st chanter of tl>e first book of Kings, he would find that the small tribe or Benjamin alcno sent to Rehoboam no less than one hundred and fourscore thousand chosen fighting men. What, then, must have been »he numberaof the other tribes, and with so many, how could the church be invisible 1 So much for his infallible interpretation of the Scrip* torei. Kow, I will tell you what is the proper meaning of the text, when the prophet said that he was alone, he ineant Uiat he %Um9 SECOND OAT-WEbNESDAY. S5 •toe4 out against tba peraecution, and that while the other propheta fled from the perteoution, he atone boldly reproved the King, and represented to him what would be the coniequence of his crimes. This hiding of the prophets was not blamcable, for even by the ex- ample of Christ himself, who fled when the people sought to stone hint wa And that it is not wrong to avoid persecution. The mar- tyrs avoided it, but when they were obliged to undergo it, they wil- lingly and beldly gave their lives as a sacrifice for their faith. Now, I have answereil the only tangible objection which he has given me to answer, and t ask how has he defended himself 1 To morrow I will be on my defence ; to.day it is my business to attack ; and, having charged him with heresy and schisms-having called on him to give kia reason for believing in the Thirty«nirte Articles which his church obliges every one connected with it' to swear to— how did he answer ? What 'lionsense to require men to swear to the tbeotogi- m1 opinioiis. How can any one with a safe conscience swear tnitt the mass ia damneble ? How can any one swear to what it is im- possible to prove true 1 My friend knows that Luther first object- ed Co the mass, and that it was the devil advised him to it. Luther hiasself admits that the devil, in five arguments, ptersuaded him to deny the mass, and be has even related, carefully, those five argu- ments. I would ask, how would that great dignitary, Ejceter, de- fend hinMelf from the charge of perjury, especially when he knowt tliat throe things are requisite to perjury— judgment, truth and jus- tioe ? 1 d3 not say that he do^s not believe wh^t he swears ; but I say that he swears it rashly, and without having reason to believe what he swears. But from mv reverend friend we have not heara a word about these articles. They are indefensible, and he aoea net attempt to defend them. I asked him could he convert a Jew? 1 <|uoted texts which the Jew might use against him, to show that there could be no idolatiy in the church of Christ ; whereas he savs tliat it was buried in Idolatry. The Jew would say, " If the chqrch bf established by (Jed, how can you ^et out of this '\ You say that hr 800 years the church was buried in idolatry, as far as could be seen, f he prophecies tell me that the church shall I((st for ever, even to the end of the \vorld. Christ, according to your Testarnpnt, said the same, ond that it should be a city built upon a mountain^ and that the Holy Spirt should be with it for ever. According t(^ you, he has broken his word, and therefore he in not God. Be^tle^ your statement, if true, contradicts the prophets. I therefore re- ject your religion." To this his answer was that one fact was worth a thousand arguments, and that his church had converted a Jew. The fact of the conversion of a Jew does not controvert my propo- sition, which was, that it could not convert a Jew consistently with its own doctrine and belief. Wtll, I repeat it again. Oh, then he talks of wrestling. Suppose two men wrestling ; suppose it foretold of one of them— — ^ " ' ' '^^'' ' The half hour here terminated. Just at this moment a gentleman connected with the press want- ed to get a sent at the table allotted for the reporters, but it was so crowded with persons not connected with the press that he found it impossible. Accordingly be wrote up t 1 1 ( i i i. >.'< i , 1 1 g :'M 'I 'm * ■ 5 '' « ; ! tf 96 THE DISCUSSION. The Rev. Mr. M'Vam \ra came forwanl nnil directed the table to be cleared of all thod with tlie preM. Tlic |)ur«nna who occupied thu table hciiilAtrdi Hnd did nut cum* ply at once. ^ ■ l.'cv. Mr. M'Xamar\— it inniitt upon every one not l>elon)(ing to the presA, leaving the table. It wa^ allotte«i to the reporters, and I will take cire t'lat it shall be nrenerwd for tliem : Mr. Nolan (ex prieit)— You are delaying the timet it i« not right, ilev. Mr. NAMARA-i— I am doing my duty. Sir, Mr, GnioohM • chairman, who will take care that he ahall have fair play. For my part I won't allow the reporters to be incommoded. The table having been cleared, and order restored, the disrutaioii went on- Rev. Mr. Grioo -I dare aay, my friends, you have all heard of on eccentric clergyman belonging to oiar church, named Kowland HilL He was, I believe, a little light at one side of his head. Wvllt at one time a strange clergyman preached in his church, and iiis { (reaching was rather in the country style. After a wild disctuirse le said, ** Well, I li ive been rambling about for half an hour, but 1 know you wish to ran;ble,*' and here thestorv ended. Mr, Hill then rose up and snid, '* this;! gentleman will ramble with you again thia evening." The story just applies to my reverend friend. For I ne- ver heard so rambling a speecli as he has given ^vou for the last half hour, and I believe I may announce that Tie will ramble with you again the next half hour* Now, my Roman Catholic brethren, did I not give him a fine beautiful syiitem, and instead of contravening it, has he not given us a rambling discourse 1 First he gave me the Thirty*nine Articles— I am going to answer the question <«n tliat point. Next, he gave us a list of heretics and I must aay that I ne- ver heard any Roman Catholic clergvman arguing that did not fa- ther all the heresies in the world. Next, he gave us the sh^herd •nd the lambs, Luther and the devil, Jenkins, Xavier, the marriago of priests, the thirty-nine articles again, and finally 100,000 fighting men. He says that Luther said he was alone for 1,000 years. 1 say he said that, in a certain sense, just as it was said by the prophet Elijah. That my friend is blind in this particular is ascribable to Popery. I hope he will excuse me for calling it by the name, at he has designated our church by the most opprobrious epithets. Now, I will prove that a single erroneous idea will affect the mind so as to render it impossible for it to judge rightly on any subject. Sup- pose a man take it into his head that he i:s a houiie-clock, he will go into the corner and wag his hand to and fro, and when his friends wouM remonstrate with him, he would say that he was minding his business. So it is with my friend. But I will stand by the articles of my church, and prove that they are the truth, as it is in Jesus, when the time comes. I will give him a system, a whole view, which [ defy him to upset. But I come now to the thirty>nine ar- fides. Here are what he calls the negative articles. They are tbo»e from th^ 6th to the Sijth. He says that it is impossible to U. SECOND DAY-WEDNESDAY. 1 prove n noffiilivr, nnd he niormx wiili Ma rule or lope. I 111 dome in4tunci*« it i« i'lip «<«il>|(>, hiir in matterM ofaligid I allow that M iil.iniipotliri' ..\iiini in lo^jic whifli I only ptirily tidntlt, and ti at iff a ptlicuhi i id gitir nlfM non wM c insfcati ', That ax \om in only relatively triiv. The rut \i a good axiom for general utH, for il mipersedes the ncceMJly of any one proving the negative oi a aet ot'a4** Thou ahalt not make to thyitelf a graven iniage.*^ it a atrong negativrt but it cannot be denied, and requirea nut logical demonttratiun. Now. to com* to the other axiom. I hat, too, ii valuable in aome reapccta, but it I* not valid in acriptural or religious matters. For instance, fizm the care that Ood took in drawing his servant Joseph out of dangtff, I might argue the general care which he takes of all his ch!ldreii.«« To come now to the Hrstofwhat he calls the negative articles— >it ia this; -** Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary for aalva* tion; so that whaiHoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any mun that it should be believed as an article of the faith, or thought necessary or requisite to salva- tion. In the name of the holy scripture wo do understand thoae ca- nonical books of the old and new testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the church.*' Here follows the list of the bookji, and then "all the books of the new testament as they aro commonly received, we do receive and account, them as canonical ! * Now I will prove from Isaiah,, and from Deuteronomy, the truth of this article. In the ith chap, and *2d veroe of Deuteronomy you will find, ** Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you ; neither shall you diminish aught from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you."— From these texts I think i have proved the sixth article; and I shall be equally fortunate with the rest. He talks of our not being able to convert a Jew. I hold in my hand the Douay Bible, and from it may be derived by the Je^v a fine argument for not adopting Chris- tianity on account of the Apochrypha being included in it. Now, remember, I speak to him as a priest, and not as a Unitarian or any ether heretic — if so I may call them. I will not allow him to be- come a Unitiirian. Now, Roman Catholic brethren, I call on you to come back to our ancient and holy bishops I tell you that the prohibition to marry is a cruel and dumntible restraint It is wrong to keep men from the holy energy attendant on matrimony. Oh, blessed he God for holy matrimony. Mark mc— I do not blame those that do not marry; I knew several excellent clergymen of my own cl)urch who lived in sin],;leness; but they did not meddle with married people ; they did not seek to pry into things about which they kneiv nothing, or to ask questions wl)ich it would be impo»si> ble to repeat. It h noAsense to say that the words '* lambs and sheep" m the text, which my frien-l q'.iottd, signify the clergy and laity. If the lambs be the laity, when they grow up to sheep's es* THE DISCUSSION. tate they must bfcome priests, and t!>en we wf>ulcl hnve aT! tlic ?aUy hecoTningpriest**. Besides tiiere are more tliinjfs than iamb^ and sheep in the f<^id, namely, the shepherd, ar i the wolf in sheep's clothini;. It would also be nonsense to take a sheep or a ram from among the flock, to make it a shepherd. Now I will come to the next of the negative articles of my faith. "The Old Testament is not oomrary to the New, for both in the Old and New Testament •verlasting life Is offered to man'iind by Christ, who is the only me- diator between '>adand man, being both God and man, wherefore they are not to be heard, which feigns the old fathers did look only for transitory promises, althougli the law given from God by Moses, «• touching ceremonies and rii^Jits, do not bind Christian men, nor the civil precept* thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth ; yet, notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever {« fir«>efrom the oliedietibe of the commandments which are called moral." Now that is the 7th article, and I think you will agree "with me that it requires but little demonstration. However, 1 prove kfW»m the 1st chap, and 1st verse of the Epistb of the Hebrews— ^ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke unto the fiithers in time past." If then it is only the one God spoke, he could not contradict himself, and therefore the Old and New Tes- tament do not differ. With the rest of the article I need not trou- l>le myself. Her. Mr. MACuiRt;— .My friend has told me that he will net per- mit me to be an Unitarian. 1 never have been an Unitarian, and t don't think it likely 1 ever shall be one, (lnughter.) But 1 use the argjoment, because he agrees with the I'nitarian in his rule of faith, by admitting private judgment. The early reformers fixed the rule of fkith to be judgment and conscience, and Mr. Gregg agrees witfi them. Now, I ask him, can an Unitarian be saved by that rale? 1 may be rambling in Mr. Gre^^g's opinion, but I am about to come to a conclusion from the premises which 1 have established ; and it is, that his church has made the Unitarians. 1 charge her with ir, and let him disprove it if he can. 1 will get no answer, b'.it you will weigh his motives Cur overlooking it. Now, he talks of the Jews, and says he can convince them by putting the Bible into thoir hands, and telling them that it is the book of the Lord Jesus. He will tell them truth, but will the Jews believe him? He tells us that the Spirit of God will direct th m ; but what is that but Rppeol« IBg to indivitiual inspiration ♦ Will not the Unitarian, and Preiiby- terian, and Quaker lay cia'ni to equal inspiration I And yet Mr. Gregg'a favorite Thirty-nine Articles say, cursed be he that saith that a man can be saved in any fait!) if he conform thereto. Again, he compares Luther to the Propliet Isaiah. The prophet said, •' I of the prophets was the only proplfet that Mood up;" and because XtUtlter salt! he stood alone, therefore ho was, in the eyes of Mr. Gregg, equul to Isaiah. Bui Isaiah had never said he stood alone. iHe said he was the only one of the prophets who stood openly for- ward to bear thebrunt of persecution, while the rest were concealed in caves. Mr. Gff^g chooses to be witty «tpon my allusion to the lOJfOOO men ; but I quoted it from the holy scriptures, and i do not S SECOND DAY—WSDKBSDAY. think It (i very proper eubject for the reverend gentleman's jok«8. He wiys oni error is inious. I admit, orie error of fiulh is riiiriniis ; but believing a mnn a hoiise.clock, which my re- verend friend quoted as an illusliniiou, is not nn error of fai(h» (Innghtci). The cause why a single error of fail h is ruinoui to n man i^, becaui^e he refuses to believe ihnt which the Son ofGoil revealed, Thciefore is it faiiil ; but how can I quota along wi«h such an error the nbsurd ca^ie supposed by Mr. Gregg ? I belong to the only church which condemns nil er. rors. The holy wcripiure poid, *' Every tongue thol rises in er. ror Hgainsl you, thiil tongue shalt thou condemn.*' But what error hsid the Protesinnl chuich coiidenuied ? None, though ^he h«d persecuted so many for dissent. I now come to the wrestler, a fine nnd elegant paiable, to prove that the gatesoC hell had not prevailed ngainsi the church. He supplies an il* lustration in answer to my case, grounded upon the prophecy that t lie church would not be overthrown, nnd imagines two wrestlers— t he Rev^ Mr. Gregg and Father Mnguhe, for exam» pie (laughter) — engaged in a contest in which it was foretold that Giegg would not be overthrown. Suppose Father Ma. guire had staggered his opponent, and again, by a strong exer pose, so foolish and ridiculous.— but, I will readily admit, harm* lese—an illustration was never introduced into a serious argu» racnt. It bonlers rather too closely upon the profane, cooiider* ing that the mailer under consideration was the blessed prot.^ raise of the substantial Son of the Eternal Father, that the gale* of hell stiould not prevail against his holy church. Mr. Gregg tells us that God said he would permit his church^ to be brought low. If he means, to be persecuted, I agree with him, hut she is not accountable for the heresies of those who went out of her, nor is she stained with (heir errors. Chrisi himself said that scandal must come, but woe to those by whom it would come. And Su Paul foretold that there would be heresies, and pronounced that they would exclude from hea*. VAn those who would be guilty of them. Those whohave left iM did not, indeed, belong lo us in spirit, or they would nol have gone from tunongst us. The gentleman travelled to tiansuMtantiationr. I expect before the discussion ie over to, break a lance with him on that subject ; and if ( do not bring him down, I expect at least to " bring him low.** In refereiico. to the Thirty.niiie Articles, I have to complain of my reverend friend for misrepresenting me. I never said he could not prove a negative. I only called on him to prove, if he could, thosa of the Article! which I called negatives-^oot uaiog the log icai: r- f !1 it M ' 4 THE DISCUSSION. \^ -^^ . IciiD, bnt. meaning negalivea ns ngninel our poniilvps. Whort we wiy iliat ilie bretul nnd w»ne arc ir{>hPiil>sMntiat».{i m ihe Euchariet, iliey sny ihey nre n.n, Wlieie we sny iIh-iv hic ^^'- ven sacrnmenip, Hiey say there nre only iwo. This is \vlm« 1 eaid, nnd I iniisl cuniphiiii of hitu Tor piiitiii^ wonU inm my mouth which are nhnost too childish for his own. li In- pmvrji those negatives, I myself will go over to hin'. [Tin Rv Mr, J. L. Nolan, who kept up a ntnniitg roMinieni.uy tipoti the riic. cuBsion. 80(/d vofC, here excluinie\v tran h? prove ihnti it was not viefibic for eight h-ndrtd ycais. Ih it not a wonder that a church which ha<* iiifro'luced so many errors i\» are attributed to the C-iiholic church would not he niotc toler. lible of other peopie^g back.iilidiugo 1 She inigh' be rxpertfd to sny, the less I ppcak of other i^eople's eirorp, the iejfs they will speak of mine. But she has never tolerated hereby in any instance. If t:he had peimitied Henry the E'<>hih to take a henuiiful young wife, when he becaute acquainted wit.i Anna Boleyn, there woidd not now be a parson in the three king, dome. If she had allowed Henry to do what Luther permit te4i him to do-^separate from his wife Catheiine — he would never have, been struck with the necessity of change. He admitted her to have been virtuous ; but aflccted to have a pciupleof affi^nity, which it was remarkable, oidy arose after he happened to see Anna Boleyn. I Will put one question to my friend, to which I, crave a direct nnswet. He admits ihe validity of the fii si four general coimcils — he admits that, i hey were iiglii in condemning the Arians, and other heieiics. He will probably say that at that lime the church was in its primitive purity, but that it ie now fallen into corruption. But, if private judgment be the iimlianable rule, a puie church had no more right to in. terfere with that rule than a corrupt one. In such a case the very act of condemning was assuming a right they could never have received ; and they would have proved themselvea coirupt by the very act. The proceedings of these conucils aro admitted by the church to which Mr. Gregg adhere* ; and I now ask him what right had they to condemn these heresies, that the council of Trent had not to condemn I uther 1 That council included a laiger pro|]ortifln of the church, and t-he was aided by the wisdom of the earth. The emperois and kingi* were present, either in |)erson or by their representatives, aiui Aoiiffh they could not interfere in the proceedings, yet they ould do a great deal by inquiry. I ask, then, whut lighi had the firat four conncils from Jesus Christ that this one had not % You will receive the four, but you will not receive this, becauM they condemns your own errois. I next come. to the gentle, man's digression with a view Ui prove me a horse. But I sup. w >Umm SECOND DAY-WEDNESDAY. 41 I': pose that requires no answer. He travelled from transubstantiation to holy-water ; but I thought that I hud given him enough of holy- w'^ttT yesterday. He answered none of my arguments then or now. He makes a great deal to do about the sword, but I answer him, " Give that to C«sar which is Caesar V If authority is to be submitted to, and if it must in some cases be enforced by the sword, it ii then uniawfbl to bless it, and to pray that you may not deal wrongfully with it. St. Paul tells us that prayer blesses all crea* tures ; and is not a sword a creature ? Mr. Gregg blesses the meat and the wine rn hii table ; and what actual difference is tkere between that consecration and that bestowed on the sword ? St. Paul u:ted the expression in reference to meat offered to idols. The heathens were accustomed, when they made sacrifices, to offer one part of the animal to the idol, and sell the rest in the market. The early Christians were afraid to purchase meat in the markets h'st they should he led to partake of the sacrifice to idols. But St. Paul told them not to be too curious ; for that every creature of God was good when blessed in prayer. My friend goes into one of the Church of England Articles at length/ and quotes about the law and I he testimony in reference to his church. But he is begging the question, for I ask him where has she got her authority 1 The law and the prophets belong to the true church, and his church la now upon her trial, to show that she has claim to them, and yet he would quote them against as. The question which he atsumea lit the one litigated, but 1 will not let him run away with it. When he go^it to the scripture, never was there a man fco much to be pi- tied. He appeals to the Old Testament to prove the new one— ne goes to the fcriptures to prove the scriptures. Was there ever such a blunder ? Wh^n he did so, he assumed that which I put upon him to prove. Like St. Ai^gustine, I would not believe the goapel if I had not the church's aathority for it ; hut he has not the church, gnd can produce no authority. Wc heard ai great deal about mar- ried priests, but 1 must remind him of St. Paul, who says that ** he that giveth his daughter in marriage doth well, but he that ^iveth her nbt doth better ;'* and he also says, *< it is better to marry than biirn." We do not degrade marriage ; on the contrary we have ele- vated it to a holy aacrament ; but for wise and just motives all are not permitted to be married. We know that if a clergyman be wed- ded, h-^ thinV.s more of " the things that are of the world, and how he may please his wife,'' than of the gospel, or of administering the sacraments. Look at the parsons, when they are called to attend a case of contagion, is not their answer that they fear not for them- selves, but that they fear to bring the disease among their family ? Christ says that any one that will not give up his father and m6- ther, and daughter and wife, and follow him, is not worthy ofhim. But there |s nothing to give up now-a-days, (ot all ends in the co- niedy and marriage a la mzae. I will discuss marriaga upon tl^e Peter Dens* day ; and liet the ladies recollect that it is not 1 who ' exclude them bu!;,Mr. Gregg. My friend talked uf sheep andhmbSf as it X bad opt presupposed a sheph6ri2 as weU as a flock. . . ; [Mr. MaguWa half bout etided here.] '^^^ ^''^ 'f- I: I . i'^: ■ 'ff scripture. Am I not proving eve- ry subject which I have undertaken to defend 1 Now, to satisfy your private judgment on this subject, I will tell you what my doc- trine is : use your private judgment, and defer to the judgment of the church. Mark me, I only say defer. I support the doctrine of the holy Catholic church, and it is because I stand on that firm foun- dation, and not from any powers of my own, that you behold me here, my brethren, triumphant and unanswered. To>morrow I will bring here to you abundance of our prayer-books, and hymn-books, and other books of piety, and I will show you that they contain nothing but purity — that they breathe nothing but the sincerest and most unsullied sentiments of Christian sanctity ; but if you take up any of the Romish books of devotion, you will be told, don't touch this and don't touch that ; you find something which you should not read — Hymns to the Vingin Mary, and Hymns to St. Valentine, and devotions to the cruel and tyrannical St.Dominick, chief of the inquisition. I will prove to you that they contain dreadful abomi- nations. To-morrow will be my day of assault. To-morrow the church of Rome will be on her trial, and it will be my turn to show you that she is plunged in auominations and errors, and that it is for that reason that we have lefb her. When I argue with Mr. Ma- guire, I use a difForenf method from that which I would employ if I had to deal with ancher class of opponents. When I tell him that I believe the scriptures to be the word of God, suppose I say that I believe so because I receive them from his holy cnurch,what objection can he have against that reason ? What can he urge against a principle he admits himself ? But I also say that we have within us the holy spirit, which also tel's us that they are true. Yes, I feel that I have that within my breast which dictates to me that that book is the revelation of the Most High. But if every one say that they have the spirit, it will be asked, how are we to know who has the true Spirit, and which is the false spirit] 1 say one mark is, witen we hear persons pretending to have the Spirit out of the ■l! SH: n I- 1 : ■f •}■ f i-i- 44 TUB DISCUSSlOir. ' I n church of Christ, we may be sure, that it in « falne spirtt. It is not a private spirit which I have within me, ami which points out to niu the truths oF God's word. Blessed be God, it i* that spirit wliich acts in unison with the hoiy church ofCliri«t itst'lf; and 1 thiink lleaven from the bottom of my soul for beotowin^ it on me ! Mr. Maguirc says that I and the Unitarians, and otlicr sects, agree in the doctrine of private judgment as the rule of faith. ] deny the as- sertion over again. W c da not agree in our rule of faith, or in our accieptation of private Judgment, because I reprobate the abuse of Jrivate judgment — I defer to the public jud)>ment of the church, n the Mb Komans we find — *• Hut ye are not of the flesh, but in the spirit, if to be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now, if any inan nave not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his." And, again — ** For as many as are led by the ^^pirit of God, they are the sons of Ciod."< Here you see how the spirit is known in those whom it pes- seises Again, when he asks me how I convert he Jews, my an* •wer is, that I would convert them in the same manner that I would the Christian— I would hold up Jesus to them from my pulpit, and 1 would cry out to them that he suffered and died for the redemp* tion of them and of all mankind ; and I would turn my eyes to hea- ▼en as it were to watch the descent of the Hoiy Ghost into th«ir souls. Read the 10th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. There it is said—** And at Peter was coming in, Corr»elius met him and fell down at his feet and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saving, stand up, I myself also am a man.** And in the Sl-th verse— ',* Then Peter opened his mouth and said, of a truth I {lerceive that God is no respector of persons ; but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him, aid we are tritnesses of all things which he did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they slew, and hanged upon a tree," &c. Mark well, my friends, the simplicity and unglossed character of this narrative of the apostle ; here there is no rant ; nothing but simply telling the story of the Lamb of (iod, Mark the conclusion. ** While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word.** This, and this' only, was the way to convert the Jews, and to bring them out from the captivity of satan; and do not deceive yourselves, any other way to convert the soul is but delusion. Observe well what 1 am about to say, ar.d do not imagine that it is profane. I say it in the spirit of truth, 'i'he distinguishing marks of the church of Christ and of the church of anti-Christ are anaiagous. Do not be startled at the word; I say they are aqalagous. The mark of the church of Christ is that it casts out devils; that of the church of anti-Christ that it casts out God. I tell you tlratGid is cast but of the soul of roan when he is taught to be- lieve the'' he should have any reliance on his works, or on the intcrces- •ion of ^ny but one. Mark how the Komish Church proceeds t o con- vert the soul. ,1 nstead of looking to Jesus— 1 grant, indeed, th»t they do pretend to look to Jesus, I have it here in the b>g- but they will tel! you It would be very salutary for you to put on a haircloth ahirt, and that it would be most useful fir your jalvation to apply a scourge to your back, and practice a hundred other tortures. 0\\ ! these good works are all the seed of evil and apostacy from the true SECOND DAY-WEDNESDAY. 4« mcrltf of Christ ! You will find good works in t1i( true church, but good »'oiklitin^ men among the faithCul, unless ha hohU it unlawful to fi^ht. I took up this statement, as it waf hit last, leastt I miv;ht forget it ; but 1 now go back and begin with the beginning. He tells you that my doctrine of marriage is erroneont, and that alt ^hould be free to marry (Mr. Nolan here indulged in a bro.id grin). 1 see a smile upon those who were not free to marry, but have mari icd ; but I beg that 1 may net be forced to take up their c.h.>, for I must he charitable (applause). The apostle Paul mya, when men are married they get entangled in the aSkira of the world, their thoughts are turned from God, and they give more thonghtn to their wives than to the Church. Let me not be ac- cused of indelicacy when I quote from the scriptures and remind you that St. Paul says, " It is good for a man not to t(^ch a wo* man ; and the blessed scriptures tells us that some are euouch front nature, some are made eunuchs by men, and others make themselves eunuc'is for the kingdom of heaven. (More machinations from Mr. JNolan, with several most expressive w'lks.) I don't wonder that the apostles of the new school laugh at t.iis, though it be froim tha liihie. Mr. Gregg says the vow of celibacy is not binding, since it i4 taken when he who makes the pledge does not understand il. Tiiii is the excu-^e of some half-sliorn apostate who is at a low fiir % subterfuge to disguise his iniquity. No person tckes the vo v tiH keta three and twenty or four and twent}', and 1 ask you if that hie an tta to misunderstand the nature of it I Can educated young qiient«rh« have spent their years fruiu their youth upwards at college, and wbt ^l) " hi ri ik 4« TIIU DISCUSSION. m m\ I ill >if have read the scriptures, and had professors ofscripture to instruct them, have any doubt on such an undertaking, or can they be de* cdved into taking it ? But it is needless to preach mcrality to some people, who, if St. Paul came down again from heaven, would not listen to his voice, if it warned them away from the seductions of di- version and impurity (applause). My friend talked of lifting up Je- lus, I wish J could see him that I might join, for by no other name can man be saved. What does he mean by saving Protestants are prepared to die, and by insinuating that Catholics are not ? 1 ask him to name a single Catholic who has died a Protestant, I will produeethe names of a thousand Protestants who were violent per- ■ecutors and haters of Catholicity, who upon their death-bed were glad to come to the oils they ridiculed before they went to their God. But if he names one man who lived a decent Catholic and died a Protestant, he will do me more than any man that has gone before him for Protestantism. He quotes St. Paul to show that his fellow-labourers in the early Church were inspired. Does it follow because they were inspired that we must be so ? They wrought mtrades. St. Paul's apron, (for he was a tent-maker,) and his hand- kerchief were sent over the country, and cured the sick and maim- ed, and wrought various other miracles (laughter). You may laugh, but it is in the Scripture. When you show to me your people work- ing miracles with their handkerchiefs and aprons, then 1 will believe you inspired. But 1 fear there is abroad more of the spirit in which Luther delighted, when he said he was a mere dry theologian with- out the aid of toe devil, with whom he tells us he eat a oeck of salt, and had various discussions upon matters of faith. Mr. Gregg rr- ferred to Meade upon a apostacy ! Now, 1 happened to have been reading an olaborate work by my friend, in which he states that one of the points raised in favor of the Catholic church staggered him, and had nearly converted him, until he saw it answered in Meade. Now, it appears that only that Joseph Meade was born the Catho- lic doctrine would be unanswered ; and where would have been my friend's reliance upon his apostolic Church ? I come back to the Thirty-nine Articles ; but there he crie^ noli me tangere — it's a dangerous subject. He ridicules our oil : let him look to James. He admits the canonicity of the book, though Luther doubted it-— and he will find oil recommended for sick men, with which they were annointed. Let him look to that. Perhaps he will answer, with Mr. Pope, it was on account of the hot chmatethe oil was re- commended. But he must not forget that the inspired writers spoke for the whole Church, and for all time and for all nations. Again, I ask him to prove that there are but two sacraments, as set forth in the thirty-nine articles. I never was more astonished than when I heard him admit that he would prove the Bible by the Ca- tholic Church. If he takes it from her, how can he refuse to take her iaterpretation 1 Is not she who collected and preserved it, and handed it down to us, best able to judge of it ? When he gave us the grand foundation, he may readily give us the stones with which to raise the edifice. He cannot prove the canonicity of the scriptures but by our Church, and he will tell you that the Church SECOND DAY— WEDNESDAY. 47 has foUen into error. How, then, can he have an uiicorrupt. etl Bible from her ? How can he make nn act of faith upon a fallible aiuhoiity ? He quotes a 'ext, " as many as are led by the spirit of God,'* but who are led by (he spirit of Qod 1 They of the true Church only. Can that Church be hja who, as I shall show you before ibis discussion terminates, added to the scriptures, subtracted from them, and mistranslated them 1 If the Church be the authority for. the Sciiptures, then is it greater than the scriptures, and that is my doctrine. If the scriptures be the rule of faith, then the rule shoittd be com. plefe. Yet Mr. Gregg knows that twenty.two boi»ks of.tho pcriptures have been lost — twenty books of the Old Testament find two of the New. How can that be a rule of faith which is not a whole rule ? He may ^ay that a part of the scriptures is sufficient ; if so, what parti Perhaps he will day the whole of the books we have. Let him show me the text for ii. . He quotes from the ihirty.niue articles, and these be the canpni. cal book> of whose authority there was never any doubt in the Church. I ask him does he not know that Luther rejected James and the Apocalypse 1 He knows that the Apocalypine was denied for 329 years. Eusebius, a loarncd critic of the church, declares that it is not true, and quotes D'onysius, who expresses a similar opinion. An early council said of it, <' let the Church beyond the sea (meaning Rome) be consult- ed, whether adding this book be canonical." How, then, with, out the authority of the Church can he prove the Bible—and how can he take the authority of the Church if it ever could have apostatised 1 I hope these objections will be answered. What security has he, I ask again, that the Bible is faithful ) I shall give you hereafter a history of the variations andmicu translations of the Protestant version. I want Mr. Gregg to answer me this question — how can an ignorant Protestant make an act of faith 1 He cannot read for himself; bis par. eons are fallible ; his bishops are fallible ; his church coUec. tively is fallible, and he cannot examine the original and satis, fy himself of its authenticity, and yet without faith. it is hiipc». sible to be saved. St. Chrysostom and J.<;rome accuse the Jewa of corrupting the Bible ; how do you, sir, know that the Chiirbh of Rome, which you accuse of so manifold errors, did sot cor- rupt it ? I will expect an answer to these questions, particn. larly the case of the poor Protestant who can*t read, and who^ making the Bible his sole act of faith, knows nothing about it. Mr. Gregg talks of holding up Jesus to convert the Jews, but his flight was unworthy of a reasoning Christian. If the Bi- ble be the sole rule of faith, will Mr. Gregg tell me hew he will prove infant baptism, or his authority for aspersion instead of immersion. How will he prove the Holy Ghost is from (he ' tii)l i '; 1' ^ '*N 48 tnt SISCtJSSIOK. , Son «« well at the Falher— or wlint is liis niidiority for dnng. inf the Sabhnlli from Biiliinlay Y L^i liiiu oliaw me iht> Ttiiii. fy or eoneiibitaniiuliiy in ilio S.'riptiireD ; but no, Id c:uinot prove a tittle of ilt^m fnmihe Bible — nor Ibe Aibnimiiuii Craod> which he hobis ns firmly ns (be gospel. fMr. Maguire*8 hnif lioiir ended here.] Mr* Orboo— It frrnlifien mn excneilingly iliiti I Mpcalc before •n intelligent nndience. Were it not intclliGreiii indped, it might poidibiy be led nwny by mere word", sou ndii wiilioni me&ning— >flimfiy, »ophi«licuted nrgnmentu ; but I nm rafe in Ibo correctneRS and jnstnera ofyonr jndgmeni?. Now, mnrk me welf^ mv frietiiU, I hnve ptirlicnlor nrgnmenis for piiriicidiir perion«. When, ih< Uniinrinn n rid i be Sociniim oppose me, 1 BBVO argumenit of a pnriiculnr nature lo meet ibem wiib ; but my revrrend friem) is not an Uniturinn or u We^ley.in, nnd be mnsl bo content to be treated by mc asa Romnn Cnlholic cler. fynian. Really, my friend, when I he^ir the argtimenis which •ro urged ngainit me, I feel almost inclined to urc nn expreg. iioii of LiitnerV, nnd say, '* 1 think I smell nn Allll;i^t.'* He •Itaeko mo ^eif 1 htd no other nrgnmeni ihiin tbow which I urgo ogaintt htm, to employ on nny oilier occasion; bnl I lull bim that on the subjeclit of ihe Irani^ferrin^r of ilie Sabbaih to . the LiOrd,f day, nnd, in fact, bapiixm, and of iwo sacramiMiis fte., I stJkiid on the enme ground ihai he do?8, and say, lint I . Iwfo rectfived them from the holy Catholic Church ; ii ix on her •ntbority that I admit them, and that reply fihalhind ought to boouAeieni for bim. But I could also refer him to many ex. MPpleoin the snerrd Sciiptine, to illustrate nnd prove the tip. thority ofthe Cbureh of Christ in respect to ibeee points, did Ithink itnecetsary to bring them forward. Ii ii*sufieieiit for IM ibiit I can prove my Church to be the Church of Christ, •nd ih^n I receive tho^e things on her Authority. But, in trutli, Mr. Mnguire is only on the defens've biiiHelf to*day, and inetead of attacking me, he i« only endeavouring to 4NSBnd himeeif from my otiacks. To-morrow I hlinll again i||av.e tlic advantage of Atiaokin<|: bim— fur it will be my iiiin. • llelvr^ ifeotwithstanaing all thay that if ih rt; were five bun. jrodiieiiptnree like that voliin.e, they would all accoid with mfipi thtit one volume contains, and couiiiin nuihing oonlrni^y If it ; hience they would be iinnece8>:ary, and it is by I'le provi. donco of God that they do not exist! Tbui>, I bUime the ; Churcb of Rome, not because she has some docirine which are t9tt90at»ittf spotless. As to the i postrcy of the Chnrth, ^e have tht desciipilon cf its real nature in 1st Timothy, chap, i r.^-" Not. the spirit spe: keth expressly, that in the latter limes some (haJi depart from the firiih, giving heed to seducing spirits and doc. triiies cf devils ; speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their con. science seared with a }ipt ifon ; forbidding to mairy, and com, fnandirg to abstain from mentt, «hif h God had created to bo leceived ?viih thanksgiving cf ihem iKhicli b^liev^ and Know the I i L ) h ." We find it |ilep df tcrib^d ifi tevcral parti of f!ze» t. ¥--:\ ; iil w if 'I n I, If I': JO !«£ D4SGt?8Sl09f. ^n:T5> kiel, ami in 5 sit on sc. ren hill.^ 1 Do we f )rbid to niuny, and lo cat. munta ? Ar« we lh»i Churcli •l»^soril)ed in lhoilevrtlatlon^'l or i^ iL ni)l dear- ly ilv^ Ch'i'rth of ll)in 5 which is pointed oni ] Ii ia she th.il is cloth's/I \\\ purple and scarlet — she that forbuKs marriage — ^hft thui is so.ited on seven hill^. Bu!, niv bicihien, whit are we come here to afn^no on ] We are com.^ to discus.^ the way to h'MVon. I appeal to yon, tny friend •, Jmli^e of the ihr^e by th? fiuit. Jide^e from the booln of pnre nn 1 iuiaullicd pitMy whif.h I -nill exhibit to yon. Jndga from tho fillen and de. graded Htate of Irelnnd. Look at her miserable condition — her pe;>ple, wretched, and i^jnoranf, and snperstiriong at home, arxl degraded and despicable abroad. Is not the Romish rolig^^ion thj cau:49 of all this ] Are not ihoso her fiifits 1 -■|, vvjr!! . Mr. Gaijoa'^ !ialf hmi biin^ o\it, th ? discnjsion conclu^pd for ih " day. When the reverend gentleman sat down, hiK fiienU CO nnen.jed clapping hand:^, an\l othei noii?y de.Jio!^. atralioti' of approval, which laaied f jr so n« ininnte*. ■V. '*b H ri'A ^■■%^ y I k y (I t ■ :■ "fl tff ! ;ri-^' >J4^Vsi'r«'v-l}'i'-i-Mf*'.f11V-f..? /ft* I'l'in^f iMI^fl *!'«:l '^iil^^'vfi '. *t|f^j .^>> ■*•■ -J5t ■ •' ' . 'r^' ; tnu ta;i ft. dnv'^j^fTw **,-"»;'>>«.■» . ,> .......,.<., .>:•.! . is} it^d r'..9-^'>ff rfi>d 'ih'^:'i'v.f«» 7^ - t \f:uii ti'ii ^/„i?i*»%J fbiiA.7 fn>ft>'ta :j-r''»r^^^ ;<>n ^ ■ •..>cii";c*j.' n? J'(,k'»j^iw ji« ^^^ ■■?■'■ > THIRD DAY—THURSDAY. 53 good will and working within us, when we have that good will." The proofs are as follow : 2d Corinthians, iii. 3 ; John xv. 3 — "Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you ;" Eph. ii. 3; Canticles i. 4; Rom. viii. 9. I now proceed to the 11th article on the justification of man — '' We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ — by faith, and not by our own works and deservings. Where- fore that wc are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doc- trine, and very full of coi ifort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification," see Rom. iii. 20 — " Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight ; for by the law is the knowledge of sin ;" and 25 — " When God hath set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood to declare his righ- teousness for the remission of sins that arc past, through the forbear- ance of God," Rom. v. 1. " Therefore, being justified by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ. I now proceed to article J 2, on good works: — "Albeit that good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins and endure the severity of God's judgment — ^yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring up necessarily of a true and lively faith; inasmuch as by them a lively faith may be evidently known, as a tree is discerned by the fruit." Ephe. ii. 10 — " For we are his workmanship created ia Christ Jesus, unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them ;" James ii. 17, 19 — Luke xvii. 10, " So likewise yc, when ye have done all those things which are commanded, you say, we are unprofitable servants ; we have done that which was our duty to do ; Gal. v. 22, 23 ; Matt. vii. 17, "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." Let us now look to the 13th article, on works before justification : — " Works done before the grace of Christ and the inspiration of his spirit are unpleasant to God; forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ. Neither did they make men meet to receive grace ; or, as the pchool authors say, deserve grace of congruity : yea, rather for that they are not done as God willed and commanded them to be done, we Joubt not but that they havethe nature of sin." The proofs are — John xv. 5 ; Matt, xvii. 7; Rom. viii. 9 ; Gal. iii. 17. I now proceed to works of super- crrogation, article l-i — " Voluntary works beside, over and above God's commandments, which they call works of supererrogation, cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety ; for by them men do declare that they do not only render unto God as much as they are bound to do, but that they do more for his sake than of bounden duty is required Whereas Christ sayeth plainly, ' WJienyou have done all that are commanded to you, say, Wc are unprofitable ser- vants.' " Now for the proofs I refer to. Matt. xv. 9 ; Col. ii. 8 ; Luke xvii. 9 — " Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him ] I trow not;" and 10, "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are com- manded, you say, Wc arc unprofitable servants, we have done that wliich it was our duty to do." I now proceed to the IGth article of i ■< 1 , '. r _ I: ! :k •I I: 'I i !9i m liiv! ! 54 THE DISCUSSION. sin after baptism — " Not every deodly sin willingly committed af- ter baptism is sin against the Holy Ghost, and unpardonable ; wherefore the grant of repentance is not to be denied to such as fall into sin after baptism. After we have received the Holy Ghost, M^e may depart from grace given, and fall into sin ; and by the grace of God we may arise again and amend our lives ; and, there- lOre, they are to be condemned which say, they can no more sin as long as they live here or deny the grace of forgiveness to such as truly repent." For proof of this, I rest upon Gal. vi. 1, and Matt, vi. 16, l"* l^ >s not necessary that I should deal with the affirma- tive articles, ^s the negative ones were the objects of my reverend opponent's attacks. [ hope the reverend gentleman will not say any more that I have not defended the Thirty-nine Articles. [Mr. Gregg's half hour ended here.] Rev Mr. Maguire — Gentlemen, I am glad that I have prevail- ed OQ Mr. Gregg at length to venture even to mention the Thirty- nine Articles. God knows I badgered him long enough before he did so ; and still see how he defended himself. He cnnteiited him- self with reading over an immense number of tracts, which have as much to do with the proper subject of controversy as they have to do with the question whether a man can be a house-clock. But look, I pray you, at the desultory warfare which he is carrying on. He undertook to prove the apostacy of the Roman Catholic Church. He says that either his Church or mine must be apostate. Now I say that neither is apostate. He may say my religion is a herecy. I assert that he is heretical. But then heresy is not apostacy. Apostacy consists in the denial of Jesus Christ, and neither of us deny him, therefore neither of us are apostates. Now, let me ask you, Sir, what have you done 1 You have overwhelmed me with a multitude of texts not bearing on the subject, because I have all along been challenging you to quote from the holy scriptures. Now I do not accuse jrou of disingenuity, though if you had another sort of an antagonist, he, perhaps, might, with some appearance of jus- tice, do so. You say that I quoted the example of the waters of jealousy, and that I might as well argue that because our Saviour rose from the dead on the third day, all of us would likewise arise from the dead — as draw any conclusion from it in favor of my views. Now, I did mention the waters of jealousy without any view to its effect upon the worjan, but merely to show that, as wa- ter and clay were blessed u.ider the old law, so miglit they be bless- ed under the new. The argument about arising from the dead is none of mine ; such nonsense never came out of my mouth. I know, and you admit, that the bite of the fiery serpent was cured by look- ing on the brazen serpent ; but that is not all, it was ordered to be burned, and its ashes were wet with water that was blessed, and whenever any one fell into unfaithfulness and idolatry, this was sprinkled upon him, and he was purified from his crime. Now, is not this another strong argument in favor of the lawfulness and pro- priety of blessing water. Yesterday you made a great speech about thebug-a-boo question of anointing ; I ask you, now, was not Christ himself anointed previous to his death — and are you aware (I don't THIRD DAY-THURSDAY. H tliink that you are) that you }'ourv>elves annointcd down to the reign of Jariics the First — dnd that in your own Book of Common Prayer, there is a form laid down for the ceremony. My reverend friend admits that this is a divine ordinanrc, and that it would be followeti in his Church if it were recommended by the bishops. That is to say, Jamcp, the inspired apostle, or, in other words, God himself; has instituted this practice, but the Church has not recommended it, and therefore it is not adopted. Therefore the Church u greater than God. But his Church is, according to himself, fallible, and, God is infallible. Now, I ask him — and let him answer me fairly-^, if an angel (and an angel, mind you, is infallible, otherwise it would, cease to be one) were to come down from heaven and say, " You have robbed the poor of a sncrament — you have abolished a divine institution : restore it"— would he do so if the Church did nol re- commend it ? Would he btlievc that angel ? St. Paul says, ** If we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other doctrine than that which 1 preach, let him he anathema." Now, I say to you. Sir, you; would he bound to receive this infallible angel, for your Church and your preachers are faPihle ; but we would not be obliged to receive hiVn, for we belong to an infallible Church, are under an infallible head, d ^ ^-ive infallible scriptures. I now refer you to tl;e ritual of Ed war where it says — "Then the priest annolnts the infant on th J, and then prays as follows." [He read the prayer, which was to the effect that the Almighty God might annoint him with tite unction of divine grace and the Holy Spirit.} First he puts on the real oil, and then he implores of God to annoint him with his grace. There is the custom set down in the ritual, and it was long |>ractised in his Church ; yet now they have abandoned it. Why, because they are guided by no Christian principle, and are driven about by every wind of doctrine. Next, there is the sacra- ment of Extreme Unction, which was long preserved in the reform- ed Church, In the Rubric it is laid down that if the sick man de- sire extreme unction, then he should be annointed with t!.e sign of ilie cross, and it gives the prayer to be used on the occasion. And the preservation of these very things in your Book of Common Pray- er it wrs that made the Dissenters leave you, for they daid that you smelled of Popery, and that is the very reason why you get angry ; when I throw these Dissenters in your teeth ; because you knaw ■ that any argument which you may advance against me, I can retort. fifty-fold in the name of the Dissenters. Now, you think you have > made a wonderful discovery with reference to the doctrine, that ! faith alone is necessary to salvation. You have quoted several texts, and I heard you, with pity, endeavoring to draw your infe- rences from them. I admit the full force of your texts, but not in : tlie way in which you would explain them. I say that faith alone j never ssived any one, that it never will save any one, and that who- ever relies upou it only for his salvation is deceived, abandons Jesa$ , Christ, and is not in the way to heaven. But then it will be object- ed to me that our S iviour, in dying, did all that was necessary for our salvation, and that nothing is wanted afterwards. I admit that , nothing was wanting on the part of our Saviour, but on our part i 'ft r ■ ■(> \ I. ! ! ! , ii r 56 THE DISCUSSION. Ii< I 'Ml il thefe was, and is much wanted, both to make atonement for sins which we commit and to avoid. This that was wunted was good works, the works of penance and mortification, fasting and alms- deeds. Now, let me give you a few texts directly to the point, and I shall convin^k^you that good works are necessary to salvation, and that faith alo ! is not sufficient. Our Saviour himself 'ays—** If you would enter into life keep the commandments." Therefore, ftith alon6 will not do, for the commandments must also be observ- ^. Further he says — " Amen, amen, I say unto you, unless you do penance you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"— and this very text has been translated wrongly by the Protestants, who have put repentance instead of ^jenance, into their testament. Rev. Mr. Gregg — Where is that text to be found 1 Rev. Mr, Maguire — In the Gospel of St, Luke. Rev. Mr. Mr. Gregg — What chapter and verse 'I Rev. Mr. Maguire —I did not ask you for chapter and verse. I would have td look for it in order to tell you. It refers to the re- pentance of the Ninevites, who, he said, should rise up in judgment against the Jews, because they did not repent. And let me ask, was it not in fasting, and sackcloth, and asl)es, that Jonas did pe- nance with the Ninevites^ for three days. I now refer you to St. James the 2d chap, and 21st verse — " Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the al- tar/' Luke 7th chap, 47th verse — Matt. 7tlj chap, and 21st verse— ** Not every man that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that docth the will of my father who is in heaven,** Matt. 22d chap, and 12th verse — where he was pun- ished who did not go to the wedding feast with a wedding garment, which is interpreted to signify good workn. IsL Corint'u'ans, c'lap. m, verse 2, ** And though I have the gift ofprophcs}-, and under- stand alt mystery and all knowledge, and tliough J have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and luivo not cliarity, it availeth me nothing." This proves not only tliat faith alone is notsuflicieut for salvation, but that many have faith without good vvorks, there- fore that good works are not a necessary consequence of faith. Now, though my friend may have great faith, and notwithstanding he has the private spirit, it will take him a long time before he con- vinces me that his f^^ith is as great as that of the inspired apostles ; yet if he has not charity, it signifies vtry little tc; hin. . I rcjer you to the 13th verse of the same chapter, '* And nov/ abidetli faith, hope, and charijy, these three, but the greatest » f t lese is charity." It is true that *' without faith it is impo.ssible to pLase Goil;" but I add that without good works it is equally impossible to please him. Again,- Colossians Tt! chap, and 14th vcvi-c, " And above all these things put on charity, wliicli h tlic bond of pcrfoctness.'* Matt. 22d chap., 37th, 3Sth, S9th, and 40th verses. Galatians, .^Jth cha[>. 7th verse. — For in Jesus Christ neither circumeition availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith whieb worketli by love." — 1st Corinthians, 7th chnp. 19th verse.'* " (ircuiiicision is notiiing, and uncircumciiion is nothing, but t'le keeping ilir conmiaiulnients of God.'* Eph'?sians, 1st cliao. 1th verse. " .Vetording as lie !iatl» ^LV.'' THIRD DAY— THURSDAY. ?c^7 chosen lis in him before the foundation of the world that we phould be holy and without, blame before him in love.'-' It ia clear, I should think, from all these texts, that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, and (hat charity, and good works, and the kccpini^ oi (he coirmiandments is equally necessary. Luther it was that put the Gorman word alien into the text ; and when he was ppokcr no true Church 1 And if Christ could not be heard how could there be faith 1 Again, how could you hear without preaching, and how could there be preaching where (here was no one to preach ? 1 also ask you who sent you 1 — ^from whom have you your mission ? — Thtre was previous to Luther no Churcli of yours ; you were only a few individuals separating A om the Church, and you had no authority. ,„,:,',. Mr. Maguire's half hour ended here. ;i;:ii : THIRD DAY— THURSDAY. 59 Mr. GitEiGG — You have all heard, I believe, of a person w ho was under ihe discipline of a drummer^ He was tied to ihe tuil of a cart, and the drummer, in ppplying his lash to his back, happened to strike him between the shoulders. O, sliike me lower, cried the man ! the drummer complied, but the man ngain exclaimed, strike me higher. Well, said the drummer, I am doing all I can to please you, but you will not be satis, fied whether 1 strike you h'gh or low. 'Tis so, my friends, with Mr. Maguire ; whatever way I meet his questions, ho will not be content. He called on me again and again, to prove the Thirty.nine Articles. I brought abundance of Scrip- ture to do so, and he says I have done nothing. He won't toke a single text from me. But, I trust, we shall have no more about the Thirty.nine Articles. Now, I really do ad- mire the great talents of my reverend opponent, and I hope he will yet see his eirors ; and I pray to the Almighty God to convert him from his wanderings. But mark the way he ar. gues wilh me. He says that we deny the necessity of good works. Now, I totally deny the truth of that assertion; we on the contrary, insist on the necessity of good works after justification — " accursed be the man who says that any man is justified in sin." We hold that there is no venial sin men- tioned in the scripture, and that all sins are mortal ; and if a man continue in fiin to death, we pray not for him. I under, take to prove that there is no distinction to be found in scrip, turebclween moral and venial sin, and that they are al^eqjal, as they are offences against the law and will of God. Mr. Ma, giiire objects to my proofs in globoy he objects to all my texts without showing any particular reason against any of them ; but I would take them serialimf and show how they apply to the argument which I support, were it not too tedious, and that I fear the public would tire of it. But if Mr. Maguire will write a work on the question between us, and there endeavor to show that I am wrong, I undertake to write a work in reply, and to disprove every argument which he will bring forward. Now hear what the articles of the true Church say on this subject. " Albeit that good works, which are the fruits of faith, and fol- low after juslificatiot), cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgments, yet are they pleasing andnc. ceptable to God in Chiist, aud do spring out necessarily from a true and lively faith may be as evidently known as the tree discerned by the fruit." You see, then, my friends, that we con- demn the abominable anti.nomian heresy — and,iin reality, that heresy springs from the very doctrine of the Church of Rome, of salvation by works. I will prove to you that from that very doctrine all sorts of licentiousness springs ; for every one will have a standard of works for himself, according as it may best G Jl I'; • ^it I*' li" i ■I n 1 ■I I . '} mmi eo THE DISCUSSION. suit his own niiiul and disposition. I recollect Imving once spoken on the subject of her conversion to a poor Iiiflhwomnn who went to the clmpel, and nhe only said to nie, " What sins did I ever coniniit — I have n good heart and injure no one, and 1 have nothing to answer for." Such was her standard of good works, and every man may thus have one of his own. I assent (o this proposition that workt^ perforn.cd in Jesus Christ are good ; but it is through the merits of Christ that they have their merits. Now mark, my fiiends, the dreadful error into which the followers of the Chnch of Uon»e are liable to run. They calcidate on vain work? and ceremonies, and ih'y put off their conversion to the hour of their death. This is an aw- ful mistake. When Christians think so, and run to us for sue. eour, and for the sacrament, we discourage them, and we S reach to them of the danger of sucli a practice. Hut if they o insist on it, we do comply, and administer the sacrament to the dying. Were we to adniinisfer the rite of unction by au- thority of the Church, we would have ns good ground for so doing as if we had it fiom an angel from heaven ; but I deny that Mr*. Maguire will find that right in our reformed pray- ei book. It is one of those relics which we had not shaken olV when we came out of Babylon, but which we have since cast away. ! will now come to a text much dwelt on by my reve. rend friend, and on which he seems to have placed great re- liance. As he did not give the v^rse in quoting it, I shall, I fear, be at some tiouble to find it out. TVlr. Magitihe — I shall most willingly assist you. A voice in the crowd — The 19(h chapter of." Matthew, verse 16th. Mr. Gregg — Oh, then, here I have it : " And behold one came and said unto him, good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life 1" Mark mc, my friends, I take the whole context, for it is oidy thus that we can arrive at the real meaning of the passage relied on by my rev. friend. Here wc have a weak-minded man coming to Jesus, who sees into his heart, and tries him as it were on the very threshold, thus : " Good Master," said he. " Why callest thou me good T* re- plied Jesus, " there is none good but one, that is God." Jesus paused, but the man could give him no answer ; then Jesus again said, ** but if thou wilt enter into life keep the command- ments." He saith unto him, "Which 1" Jesus said, "Thou shalt not do murder; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not steal ; thou shalt not bear false witness ; honor thy father and thy mother ; and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself ;" that is, let no things of sin be on thy soul ; thou hast the law before ihee, behold tl>e condition you have to fulfil. The man should have said, " Lord I have tried all my life io fulfil the law, but I fj^t.,*( V^fft *T.>**^ ,r-..K 'V>i': -'? •'■ f^V; r^'fiNsr)? r. -r/ Tlimi) DAY— THL'IISDAY. fil could not do it." This would be that sorrow of soul which would be- come him, nnd would be meet in one approaching the Lord, for no man can ever come to Jesus until ull hope but evangelical and lawful hope is banished from his soul. He said, "Which 1'' Jesus replied— now observe, observe, Oh observe the wisdom of the Lord Jesus ! he doth not give him the first table of the law ; •< Thou shalt love the Lord thy Gud with thy whole soul !" he deals with him more gently in the beginning — he takes him to the second table and forbids him to commit any sins. Mark the answer : — The young man evident- ly moved in a respectable circle, and when he did not commit the grosser sins he thought that he w:.s perfect, and Jesus saw that, like iTiany in his circumstances oi life, h" was blinded by his riches, ard gave him a precept according. " 'ine young man saith unto Hi n, ail these things have I kept from my youth up ; what lack I yet 1" Jesus said iinto him, " if thou wilt be perfect go and sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come and follow me*' Then you will discover what yuu are yourself — that there is no righteousness in you except that which Cometh to you through another. Thus do we cx[Slam tins text, not by taking it alone, but in connexion with the context — thus will any one who preti.nds to understand the Scripture, when he takes it piece-meal, deceive himself ; for there is a height and a depth about the word of the Lord which obliges us to read it again, and to ponder over it, and consult the Holy i^pirit on it, before we can pretend to ourselves that we understand it right. Perhaps it would be well to take another of ray rev. friend's favorite texts, and try whether it could not be explained to your satisfaction. Let us take the following : St. Paul says, " If I should have all faith so as to remove mountains, and have not charity, it profiteth nothing.'* Now, I will not be drawing vain distinctions, but I will ask him one question before I proceed to the explanation of the text. He ask is he to prove that he is not a house-clock, and he appeals to com- mon s.'nse that he is not. Now, if common sense tells us that a man is a man, I also appeal to common sense that bread is bread. Again, he says, De non appnrentibus it non exisientibtis eadent est rntioy that is, things which do not exist are to be considered as alike. Now, I fasten on him his own principle, and retorting his ridiculous maxim, I say things which do not appear do not exist, and what does not appear in the bread does not exist. A- gain, he asks, how can! make an act of faith? This was for a long time a bugaboo to me ; but I ask him what does he mean by it 1 If it is to do good in Jesus Christ, I answer that we rlo it — we do it through the Holy Ghost who operates within us; but if he only means by it, forming his belief on a list of Popes or such external circumstances, I say we do not make such an act of faith ; and I further say and mark it, my friends, if the truth of the bible were proved by the strictest demonstration, even that would not enable us to make an act of faith without the influence of the Hol^ Ghost. Hut, my friends, there is a saving faith which is to be distmguished frt)m that other kind of faith which resembles much the force of im- agination, and might be such as that which moves mountains and I r^\ ;|I1 ■'.rr. ■^^ 62 THE DISCUSSION. il III I'M : ; effctt roig^ty workn. — Thus do we find in tlie cnpe of Jehu, lliat lie rose up at ifhc had the Spirit of the Lord, and drove furioualy over the land, and overcame the kings of the earth ; and yet he was re- jected by God, and was an idolater ; nor was it hy the saving faiih which he was moved. — And so in tlic case of Saul, when the hand of Samuel was on him, he went abroad with a mighty emotion and dashed through his enemies with more than mortal power. Thus, I have no doubt, that in an apostate church some may be found with that kind of faith which actuated Jehu and SijuI — with that faith which would move mountains ; but that is not a saving faith. The devils believe and tremble — mark that, my friends the devils believe and tremble, but theirs is not a living or a saving faith. Now then for the apostacy. I come now to prove the apostacy of the Church of Rome ; I do not know at which end of such a sub- ject I should commence ; but as I have but a minute remaininc per- haps it would be as well for me take some other of my rev. friend's pomts. Let us take the case of Abraham, who, it is said in St. Paul, was justified by works. The Apostle, in writing to the Hebrews,-— Mr. Gregg's half hour here ended. Rev. Mr. Maguire — My reverend friend, Mr. Gregg, hps told you that faith is the evidence of, and produces good works ; but 1 say that good works are the evidence of faith. He told you yester- day that he came here to preach and not to argue. I tell you that I came here to argue and convince. I agree with ^^im in the conclu- sion which he drew ; for it was that faith would not save without good works ; but I say that that was not the doctrine of Luther, and to this day, is not the doctrine of many, if not all, the the mem- bers of his church. He relied much on his interpretation of the texts concerning the young man seeking for instruction from Christ ; but I will now cxplam them, for I saw how he staggered when en- deavoring to make his meaning correspond with his own opinions. The young man said unto him — « Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have everlasting life ?" And he said unto him, why callest thou me good "^ there is none good but one ; that is God : but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, " which 1 Jesus then explained to him the com- mandments he was to keep. " The young man saith unto him, all these have I kept from my youth up — what lack I yet ? Jesus said unto him, "if thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all thou hast, and give to the poor,andcome andtollow me.'Trom the address of the young man it is evident that he was sincere ; and one of the gospels, which gives a fuller account, says that Jesus "looked on him loving- ly," when he told him vrhat more was necessary after observing the commandments which he had enumerated. So that our Lord must have known that he spoke the truth in saying that he had observed them. If this, then, be the case, my friend's argument falls to the ground. Oh, but then, I am sure, he does not much relish the pre- cept, " Go and sell that thou hast." Oh, no ; the parsons do not like to give up anything, especially the tithes. Oh, no ; they will xiot give them up. They wdl kill and shed blood for them. Well, he gives his own gloss. I give another evangelist to explain the •I 11 -in THIRD DAY— THURSDAY. W text. Mo talked mttch oF thin passage. If it .be inc^mbeQt on • man to give his goods to the poor, the precept was a work of fun^- errogation. Now, I think I have convinced you t\)fA Mr. G^fgg has not been cnligli.cned by the Holy Ghottt, at least sp far ii tnS interpretation of the Scripture is concerned. Our 9>viour MVf^ in the gospel of' St. Luke, '* Amen, amen, unless you do peDance^ vou will all equally periph.'* And what was this penance ? The pen* anceofthe J^inevites. My friend may cry out, " Oh, Popery, 'I abominate you," Let him say so. Yet this churc^ reconttnendt. nay, enforces restitution and satisfactiou both to God and nifn. ff you rob a man of his ch racter, you must make him reititijition. But such is not the case in his church, I have been told bv ipy fifietid that works are not good in themselves. £)id I not pdmit ^hat fe contrary, and allogu that no matter how good your works, or great your faith, satisfaction is necessary for sin. But this doctrine of satisfaction will be better for Den's tfay than now. On that day 1 will gladly compare those who go to confession with those who do not. 1 will gladly insti- tute a comparison between those married women who go to confes- sion, and the Bible-reading ladies of England, and then we shall see who quit their husbands, and who exchange husbands with ano- tfier. We shall see that in England no less than 600 every year fly away from their husbands, or exchange with each other, Oh ! t)iesc ladies must have ghostly advisers. They must have some be- fipre whom to lay the inmost inclinations of their hearts, and the temptations to which they are exposed and which they feel, and no one to give them advice how to overcome these temptation.' — how lo avoid these dangers- Mr. Gregg knows as well as I that they cannot tell their husbands ; that would make them run the risk of being locked up as nre the Turkish ladies. Who, then, are they to advise with, if iiui with a confessor? But this is properly t()e subject of discussion for Saturday. My friend says he is going to the subject of apostacy. Why does he not go to it at once j All of you must n<>w be tired of his rambling. It is principle I want^ anal have not got it as yet. He told me an vvt of faith is non- sense. He plays upon the word "net" as if it is not eqiuilly up[>li- cable to tJie mind and body. Now, I will tt-ll y«Hi what I say. I Sily you have no faiiii. Vou caanoi puiitlbly make nn act of faith. IIIIUI) DAY— THURSDAY. C5 An net offiiitli ron«iiit!< not inrrely in nny outwnrd action, hut in tb« inward motion of the licnrt, or ttie outward motion of the tongue, dt'cluring your belief in the religion wliich you profeni. No n)iin belonging to yonr religion cun innkc an act of faith, for you admit that your church ia fallible God's fuith does not, and cannot, de- pend on fallible testimony, for it in more than metaphysically certain, h it from scripture you have yotir faith 1 Whence have you theicrip- tiire» ? How do you know that they are authentic? How can you prove them authentic? Not the most learned man in your religion can prove it, for he has not the scriptures in the ancient languages, nor have they a good copy in any modern language ; I tay then that , Protestantism is without principle, ai>d that it is nonsense for a man to be running always to the Holy Ghost when he does not know and cannot prove that he possesses his 8|>irit. Kaptisin, (JuiiHrmation, the EuchariHtjthe Hibic, and every single prayer that they h ve, aresto- len from us. 1 am prepared to prove that there is not a single prayer ' in the common [)rayer book that they do not get from us. Where was ' your liiblo, let me ask you, during the SOO years that you vete invi- sible? You may tell us it was with the Jews. I thank you, a.id I w'u'u [ you joy that it is from the Jews you derive your fuith. You mny tell me with the Waldcnses and Albigenses. ' wish you joy, then* that you derive your farth from excommunicated heretics. And I ' will show you Protestant authors who speak more severdy aga'rs: these heretics Ihan any Catholic writer ever had done. If you hav^ it ; not from any of those,you have it from us. Then you have got It out of the Kabylon whence you have got everj-thing. Now I nave got ' you in a tine stew, and the only way you can get out of it is by giv- ing it a irunsent, and by quoting a paced of texts which have noth- ing to do with the subject. \ say that theD'ble is mine, and t*iat ii: is not yours, and you have nothing to do with it. Mark me, the gospel was not finished for 91 years after the death of our Saviour. How does he know, then, that it is authentic? He cannot know» ' therefore, he cannot prove it. He tells you he is a Catholic. Sup- ^ pose a letter was directed to the Catholic priest of Swift's-alley, | does he think it would go to him 1 It would not. It would he sent to the parish priest. Oh, but the title of Protestani {.v'sst is a very ' tine one, notwithstanding the contradiction which A amplies;. He ' did not give you a single argument hardly since the commencement ' of this discussion. It is true he showed you a map, the upper part ' of which is gold, and out of the gold flowed a scarlet color. Why, * Sir, your own friends laugh at it. Here yru are running from one ' doctrine to another, from transubstantiation to faith, from faith to ' works, from works to hundreds of other things, and not staying at '■ any one single point. But this is nothing. Such a discussiuu will ^ satisfy no one— — •? ■> J ,..-;' Mr. Mdguire's half hour here ended. '' ' Kev. Mr. Gregg— Gentlemen, 1. think that a letter drrected to '' the *• Catholic minister of Swift's -alley" would reach me. But now, let me ask you, if any of you went into Lucan and ask for the " church, would he be directed to the Roman Catfholic chapel ?^-or suppose a letter were directed to the miniMer of BaUir>amore^'do ' % ':^'f Rl'; ''I ^il |:!i ni ^ THE DISCUSSION. ■■ ill you think it would be sent to my reverend friend. It is not necea* n^y thatf I sbuald prove that the term '' Catholic'^ is used positive- ly;; nor is it necessary . that it should be so used. It is merely a cujittnctive term, and the word " church" implies it. Hence if any oi^einquires for achurch, he is directed to our place of worship. My: reverend friend says we got the Bible from him. Yes, we did ; and I hope thpt h^-himself will soon come uvrr to us. He asks me to prove to him that I have the Holy Ghost. I say, " If our gos- pd, be Jiid| it is hid to them that are lost.'' Then he talks of an act ofjpifriii^iBent Bible. I say our Bible is not an act of parliamen' Bi- ble. We g;|ve it to the parliament, and' persuaded the parliament to pasta law for its support, and may we never see the day when the; holy. union between our church and the state may be broken. Ob, then he speaks of our bishops rolling in carriages. ) wish I W4S to dine with the Bishop of Toledo, and then, indeed, I would BQe the riches and the splendour of a Popish bishop. He taunts me with the Uiiitarians, and asks mc will they be saved. I answer th^ an^T-one who denies the divinity of Christ cannot be saved. The tin^^'is coming, when my Roman CaLhoiic brethren will come out of Babvlon as well as ourselves. We did not separate. The origi^a] bitaw ** a gieat image whose brightness was excdi. lent and the form thereof wa^ itrrible. This image's head wcis of fine gohl^ hiA breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his ihighs! of brass, his tegs of iron, his feel part of iron and pan of miry clay. " And a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon itS: feet, which were of irotj and miry clay, and broke them to pieces ; ihpn was the iron, the clay, the^.htiass,. the silver, and the gold, brrken to. pieces together, and became like chiifTof (he suinnier threshing flc)ors, and the witui cairied them away that no plaice was found for them, Qnd the stone that smote the image became a great mountaiil, and.fillfd the whole eAirih." Now let me come to interprets, tion. The vision described the Gentile woild under four king, doms. The gold stguifiled the Assy rian^ empire. TI16 brass erg. nifjed the Grecian empire. The breast and anna signified the Lydi^n and. Persian empire. 'I he fourth empire w«e the Rq. man. The feet part of iron and part of day^ signified the Ro. mi^h apostac3% The ston* that grew into the rnomitain was (be. tine chuich, which wns of • he finer clay which is the com, position of a mountain. The very clay of the feet was ia had foundation, and easily destroyed; and mark it had a cohnee;. tion with, the worldly kingdom ; for papal Rome is no morb than a contimmtion of pagan Rome. The feet were fiiist iriDn-.^^. that is Paganism ; and next ciuy-n^that is, Popery. lais^iiert itlHt the miry clay was Rome in its npostticy. Now^ it it noi from Dens that I will su^inin this aposiacy, but froin-DeS(tle«, St. Thomas, Aquinas, Camburni, and others, who were What Baily, another of their writers, oills Intiores <:aswjitA, Brit even ibis same Bailey I will prove to be the most shocking, abomi" nable writer that ever wrote, and to contain the most horrid unmcntiounble things*. Now, I rejoice to say God has desfgrj^ ed to destroy Baby!oii. N<)W is the time, my Rbman Catholic bi-ethren to go out of it, lest you be defiled with itS' abominai. tions. Now, fly when yousee the abomination of desolation in the holy place, luid let nomMU go up to ihisroDf.lop, biit goto the holy mountain, wh^re he ni.iy see. [Here the reverend genile man became so excjied, and ihtm, form, that it was impossible to ascertain what' hte was saying: The only words we could hear were, "fly, fly, fly !" repeated very often ; and we renlly though' that ho feared 1 he roof would fall In upon the heads of the devoted nssernbly. Almost^ very Pt»e in the room was convulsed wi eh laught<^r. Thetciwcrft fr- /*^ M UH' Hi! 'li ; 11' ! I:t titi K ^0 / 'I lltii: lii .;ii,|| m \H iiiii i ii 11 lil :m THE DISCUSSION. ■oine (f'w who lomlly tipplaiulnd him. When I he reverend goiiilttnuu) lud lecovtsretl hid breaih and hia specliicles, he coiu liiinedt] E.^ccuse niu-^;ny fiien(ls_exciise nie — but I have .tuch a love for yuur tiouU, it has led me uway — 1 was saying that papal Rome was a coiuiniiation of pagan Rt>me ; and I have in my hand a letter writieii by a worthy Protestant divine, which showii that the atiperaliiion of modern Rome are merely slightly changed fro(n those of ancient Rome. Even (he mira- tle of melting blotid when approached near the heaom joining what they know to be right. It is only those that go directly out of the church that I would call heretics or apostates, but I w< uld cull them so. Again, it is said, " The just man falleth seven times.*' If he fall mortally, how can he be just t If he do not fall mortally, he must full venially Therefore there is venial sin. Besides, there is hardly a single action, hardly a single thought (if ours, in which we do not sin. If these were to t^ punished, whut.w^uld became of us? What wpuld become of me, if every foolis*^ smile I give when I hear my reverend friend make use of a humbug ar^iimtMit, were it a mortal sin 1 Well, then, I have dope vihuf. he defied me to do. I have proved that there in venial sin.— Now, I come to another part of his speech. He has canonized him- self before he is dead. He has asserted that he is savedi and for so doing I arraign him of blasphemous impiety. You remind me, Sir, if the mail who had liis grave>stone brought to him when he was dying, and got engraved upon it. "Victory, victory, victory, through Christ Jesuo." Now, did the Holy Ghost authorise that man to do this I If he did he was infallible as well as you, and was riglit. But if he were nor inspired he was blasphemous, though not more HO thuii yourself. Why, you are ignorant of the principles of religion. You mu8ibeHwsre of the di erencc between presump- tion and hope. If you hud said, **I hope I am saved," I Would hdve added, '* I hope so.' But now thatt you say positively that ,i'fi m i: ['? i ; : ! ' t, ; ( ' : li:. ■1 it ;;!i ^iil :U ™ iill m ll!i '1!! Hi i iiii 'r :fi 70 THIRD DAY—THURSDAY. you are, \ accuse you of presumption. Do not imagine, my frienc^, 1^ J!9M ^^ Cpjole tlijk inf^leotual assembly. Such things may go |frnifel),eDpuKh .elsewhere, Hut they will not go down here.— by, 0)iypvi U^ a saint, ify^u be inspired, convince me of it by a !^ca^f,j(mdj v/'tW believe you, but not till then. You say you are ififm\rgd^!^\4,yi!^i, I have s'lown that you do not understand the i^fiptqrfi^, ,Hpw4o you iticonoile that with your inspiration ?—!• J(q\ )^^y<^,uMmoMnit^'hm will not bo saved. Well, they will sW^ J:aJjg^, y/9P aretU^ciiUs of our damnation — ^for it was yoU tEajLi^(|ml4^d;thedoctta)e.of the right of private judgment; and in l^q^ ,f^t^q( tliat private .)Udgment,'they will give their gloss for Wuji; (do^^. ajQf}^ \> iU cleicide which is rights '^'^^'y. ^>l| g,9 w>|h you tf|Vt^f^i]/^;!j2^>^po$eu,9^,^l. th^f^* i wiU come to the apostacy, and I shall set it aside 'aljf^f^h^rin.ia .very sbort way, and then I will prove from scr|prurc^ ai)^.j(r9Q(^ yjQVir«\vD, writers, that St. Peter ib not Anti- Cf(u-jkl'i^ij4^tn^ ly; if the centre of Christian unity. We have Sir I«iaJ:^N^(^j^]t9]9,/Bi8^^^ and many others, all of wHom^^r^^Y^^Wfitfiqn on tbe. prophecies, and each of whom diiFera from, an(|- '''4. * -^siK *: \i«»l'-t;i _ that both parties had agreed to that7day. - ^j^t -^''iiiJ'^^ii ••'•>;=•■'* !'•■'^'.''- hf9,A?PF^I^d» *3(ij vljvilUO-.{ VB» u>x 5**^" ^'*'" mj lift' J't Hfini :,ufi 'j'it^-i sW'i > I ): f THE DISCUSSION,. I ' I,' •i ) 'BETWEEN ^ '.■';'''^"' 'f.: ;:,' THE REV. MESSRS. MAGUIRE AND GREGG. * '!"(.; Fourth Day — Yesterda-y — Junk 1st. ( Continued.) .;» ; -"v''- .. 1 Yesterday the discussion commenced at the usual hour by Mr. Maguire culling upon Mr. Gregg to proceed wiih his proofEi, thai the Rom/ui Catholic Church is the church of Antichrisi. Mr. Gregq — I am rather astonished at this call, after the agreement we entered into last nighl ; and after some conver- sation I had with the reverend gentleman a few minutebi ago. I cannot consent, by commencing, lo sacrifice my last half hour, which is most important. But if he consents to allow me my last half hour, I am quite willing to commence. 1 this moment agreed with him, at least so [ understood it, that I was not to lose my half hour. I, being J he attacking part}', would labour under a great disadvantage, if I had not an op, portunity for rejoinder. He said he would continue upon the apostacy ; and as he has my arguments of yesterday to apply to, I could subsequently proceed wilh fiesh proofs, Mr. Magl'ire — Your toial mistake of my meaning. Sir, sihows the necessity of a witness io any conversation between us. I said to you that if I allowed you to couimence and con. elude to-day, you would have three half hours for my one> -the one half hour which you closed yesterday, the half hour com_ mencing to.day, and the half hour closing tho proceedings. If I commenced (o-day what would 1 have to reply to ? You have entered into no proofs, and I have nothing to answer. Our agreement yesterday was, that you should proceed with your case. I appeal to the public if it was not so. Mr. Gregg — I, too, appeal to the public. If I chose to insist upon my right, I am quite willing lo commence, if I am allow- ed my concluding turn. Mr. Maguire — It is better to leave the matter to the chair. Mr. Gregg — I am quite willing to leave it to the chair ; aiid I am sure the decision will be in my favour. Mr. Maguire — You should not prejudge ihc decision, if you aiie wiUiuij; to submit to it. t ,! i ;i' 1 '■i 1 ;.iv> j . 1, .; ■ 1 ! f ■ ' !' t ll 'I ', f: «;*«IUWU>i..<4W>IB 4 72 THE DISCUSSION. u ^ 1 ;l Hi [There was here loud cries Oi chair, chair, from all pnrls of the room.] Mr. GufiaG— I cUiirn lo be allowed to fiHian i«y aldie^js lo to the public. Now, murk— 1 coiTinu^nceil an aitat k npou ihe Roman Catholic church yesturtlny. I proved that npo; Hu-y lo a demoustratico from Daiiicd. Mr, Mnguire made no r('|>!y. T^m; leason is clear enough- -he went houie lo consider if . There. fore, it is most umeasoiuible, that 1 should be cnl'rfd t!j;:)n, ut an inconvenience, and out of our urfunl rouiine, to pioc^ed. an ' lose the advantage of the closing reply, ile lias a fair oppor- tunity of upsetting all 1 have said of hia churc^h now if he can. Mr. MAGuiRE— 1 would bn pertecUy satisfied, and ought to be satisfied with this courpe, if we isad not entered into an ar- rangement yesterday. What necessity was thnre for a specHit anangfiment, if every thing was to go pari passu with the re- j»ular course of tbin«js1 I agreed yesterday th.ii lie was to ^^ t leave to go on wilh ids apos'acy case. Stopping as we iViA yc . terday, &i^ tsour earlier than the day before, he had not conclud- ed it, and i wa?; villing to give him an hour, or even a whole day. for the pnipocsc. Mr, GnrcnG ~ VVe stepped early to oblige Mr. Maguire. Mr. Macs ui WE — I know the reason you are f.o Utile anxious lo go OH. You are not so suie of ihci aposlacy. Mr. Gregg — Assure as Chi ist was saved. * >. *- After some further conversation, it was agree/1 thai things should ^o on in their usual comse — Mr. Maguire commencing. Mr. MAGUiRt: began by saying — My chairman has recom- mended me, rather than give up this discussion, to forfeit my chiim upon our agreement, and I shall do so for peace sake. Permit me, cdmmencing, that if artificial and capricious glosses upon the prophets could carry my friend to an apparent victory, there is no doubt that he would not have failed for the irant of Rsaerlions. But I will show him ihat this glossing is not his own ; I will prove to him, inconlrovertibly, thatPioiestant glos- sers look upon every man who holds his opinions as either a knave or a fool — (there was here some confusion and mingled hisses and che3rs.) The Rev, Mr. N angle came forward and requested (here should be no marks either of approbation or disapprobation. Snch conduct, he said, was a violation of the terms of agree, iwent between the contending parties. Rev. Mr. Maguire — I beg nay friends to shew no Symptoms of hpprobaiioa. I want none. I seek their attention, atttl nothing mor<;. The great question we have to decide could be concluded, upon my part, in twenty minutes. But 1 will go into it at length, and leave no cavil unanswered. I will have first to make an observation or two apmx his lasrt 098 jet lea bo< ',,■i^ FOURTH DAY-FRIDAY. 19 ipeech yesterday ; but three tninutei M'ili suffice for it. He first quoted a text from St. John, to prove that every sin is mortal. He read, ** There is a sin unto death." I hope the oversight was uniQ- tentional ; but, my friends, he omitted what the holy evangelist con- i^inues to say, « There is a sin not unto death" — that is, there is a sin that killeth the soul, in a spiritual manner, and there is a ^in that killeth not the soul, in a spiritual manner. Now, either this proves venial sin, or, as I will prove to a demgnstration* it shows the n^- oesaity for prayers for the dead* I will go no further upon this sul^- ject now ; but if my friend choses to touch upon it again, I will leave nothing I have promised unproved. He next spoke of the book of Maccabees, which, he said, was rejected from the cano- nical scriptures, because it sanctioned self-murder. But I deny tiiat U sanctions self-murder. It says that Maccabeus chose rather to die nobly than fall into the hands of his enemies. But the dying nobly had reference to what was passing in his own mind, and not to the opinion of the inspirei! vrriter. He died no- bly, in his own opinion ; but his mode of death is not sanctioned* But if the book is to be rejected because it relates an historical fact, why not reject that book too which tells us that Jeptha slew his own daughter ; and that which relates of Sampson pulling 4own the pillars of the temple of the Phih'stines, killing himself and many others. Now, I take the octavo edition of the bible, published at Oxford, which cannot be rejected, it being a great Protestant au- thority ; and on the authority of this book I will show that a feast was established in honour of the self-sacrificial act of Maccabees, with an octave of eight days. It is said in John, that our Saviour and his disciples went up the mountain to this feast — clearly prov- ing that the commentator held the connection between the texts. If, then, the Maccabees be not a canonical book, why was this feast established on its authority ? — and how will it be said that Jesus gave his countenat>ce to a superstition ? 1 ask Mr. Gregg what au- thority he has for rejecting the book of the Maccabees ? None but his own private authority. What authority has he for con- demning the Arian« 1 None but his own. Again, what authority has he for condemning the Unitarians ? His own private authority alone. Why did he condemn the Rev. Mr. Burgh ? Because he differed from him on the meaning of the book of Daniel. Did the Catholic church ever condemn any person without a trial ? No, neither Luther, nor Wickliff, nor Husr, was held guilty without having an opportunity of making defence. But my reverend friend, because he lo«>k8 grave, and wears a pair of spectacles, I suppose, deals about ci>mlemnation with a more unsparing hand than ever did the maligned Vatican. You will observe that in one of the gospels it is expressly said of the Blessed Virgin, *' Behold from henceforth, all nations 8]»all call me blessed." How was this pro- mise to be fulfilled ? Where weve the nations to call her holy, and to Ivold her name blcsf.cd, when the whole Christian world was sunk ill dark, and dismal, and damnable heresy for 800 years 1 — Now, my frieiid^j, I shall proceed to show that the Babylon, spoken of in the Revelations, is not the Church of Rome, and that the city lii) j , ill; • ' i n^ iil? ■f: ■1, THE DISCUSSION'. il' !■ m i !:il Mil! in not the Cluiatian city, nor the Papal city, but pagan Fome. Saint Peter wrote to the elect cliiircli, which i» in Babylon.- Now, he was preniding over the Christian Church which was in Rome at the time, and he could only have spokt'H of it as in Babylon, be- cause among the heathens. Indeed, Doctor Hammond, n cele- brated Protestant commentator takes tUis view of it. [The Revd. gentleman here read an extract from Hanimond, in which he holds that the vision of Saint John in the Revelations referred to heathen Rome, and that the hallelujahs of the nationn were the joy of the people at seeing the Christian church overcome it.] Thus the fall of Babylon was the fall of the pagan city of Rome, and the joy of the nations was for the conversion of it, or, as Doctor Hammond writes, for the conversion of pure and Christian Rome, But 1 will ask Mr. Gregg if he does know of another city situated upon seven hills besides Rome ? iMark what Doctor Heyland says in his Cos- mography — Doctor Heyland, whom no one will doubt, as a learned and grave authority — (The reverend gentleman here read an ex- tract from this work, in which it was stated, that Constantinople was built upon seven hills, each of which was crowned by a mosque, or some other public edifice ; and on the seventh of which was seat- ed the temple of St. Sophia. Hence it was called the city on sev- en hills.) Mr. Gregg will travel far before he will show that Con- stantinople was not the Babylon foretold. It was called Nova Roma, or New Rome, and has quite as clear a title to be called th^ Babylon ; so that if there be any mystery in the number seven, and if Babylon the Great be situated on seven hills, it is more likely, as Doctor Heyland observes, that the Grand Turk, the professed ene- my of Christ, should be the Antichrist ; and it would be more rea- sonable to look for him in the temple of St. Sophia, which is now a Turkish mosque, than in St. Peter's Rome, which is still a Christian temple. I have already shown that Faber differs from Newton, and declares that Joseph Meade and Bishop Newton are wrong in their application of the term Babylon the Great. To proceed — idola- try was not entirely routed out until the fifth century. It still up- lifted its head even under Constantino the Great, and it was only under Theodosius that it was quelled. Well, according to St. John the devil was to be chained with all manner of chains for a thousand years after the fall of Paganism. This will bring us, as I shall here- after show, to the time of Luther and Calvin, when hell was again let loose upon the world. (The reverend gentleman then read ano- ther extract from Dr. Hammond, who held that the meaning of the passage in Revelations about the angel sent to chain down satan, meant that the imprisonment of the arch enemy should continue for ft thousand years after the fall of Paganism. The writer went on to show that paganism continued to the invasion of the Goths, when the qity of Rome was destroyed, and Christianity became victorious.) Our blessed Saviour forewarned that he would send his lambs amongst wolves ; and did not suffer his lambs to be persecuted under Vale- rian, Domitian, Caligula, Nero, and the other scourges and tyrants, which were Foretold, till the patience and meekness of the followerti 1 FOURTH DAY—FRIDAY. 75 n Romp, n.- Now, Rome at ylon, be- 1, n cele- 'he Revd. I he holds heathen ay of the 18 the fall he joy of iJamroond But 1 will pon seven n his Cos- > a learned id an ex- tantinople a mosque, was seat- Y on sev- that Con- lied Nova called thcL seven, and likely, as essed ene- more rea- ls now a Christian wton, and ig in their id — idola- still up- was only > St. John thousand shall here- ivas again read ano- ing of the >wn satan, ntinue for vent on to when the ious.) Our s amongst der Vaie- d tyrants, followers y r J of Christ overcame the persecution, in 4-45, when Paganism waa destroyed. Was it not the Roman Catholic church that overcame the pagans and idolators 1 And was not the Pope then in Rome, and is he not there still ? (The reverend gentleman then read an extract from Dr. Cave, a Protestant writer, to show that he held that the Babylon referred to in Revelations was pagan Rome.)-— Now, then, having given you these proofs, in refutation of Mr. Gregg, I will not at present proceed to show that Luther is the (hU len star referred to by St. John. (Mr. Maguire next referred to Whiston, a Protestant write" in the reign of Anne, who held that the Pope was Antichrist, and prophesied and proclaimed that Pope- ry would be done away with in the year 1716.) If (continued Mr. Maguire, amidst great laughter,) the prophecy has been fulfilled, I am content to submit to his authority. Now, to proceed to his quo- tations about forbidding to marry, rnd to eat meat. The Protest- ant church acknowledges the general council of Chalcedon. It wat admitted by the first parliament under Queen Bess. Now, one of the canons of that council declares that any priest or monk who marries shall be publicly excommunicated. .You have your own church admitting that council, which forbids to marry, and marry- ing in contradiction to it. We have the authority of St. Paul for believing that the married disciple is more ready to fall away from the faith than he who is single. ?)ut I will proceed to show that the prophecy did not refer to the Catholic church. The Gnostics and other early heretics, my reverend friend must know, totally for- bid marriage, saying it was brought in by the devil, and that mar- riage was fornication. The same doctrine was held by the Mar- cionites, who said there were two principles in human nature, the evil and the good, and that marriage proceeded from the evil. With these the Eneratites and the Manicheans forbid the use of flesh. Some of them helJ that swine^s flesh only was objectionable. But many of the early heretics declared that all flesh was an evil. (The reverend gentleman then quoted Terluilian, to show that the Marcionites regarded marriage as evil.) But does the Catholic church do this ? No. It has elevated marriage to a sacrament. Nor do we forbid the use of me t. We use it, and I can tell you, we are very glad to get it. We only hold that during times of pen- ance, the use of all kinds; of meat is not advisable, for which we might plead the line of Horace. " Sine Cerere ei Baccho fugU Vf- 7/«s." We know that eating and drinking luxuriously foments the worst passions ; and that a cessation from them is necessary to pen- ance. Mr. Maguire's half hour here ended. Ml. liR OG tlien rose and said, I beg leave to ask my reverend friend where did he gel all his wisdom about the Scriptures? or whether was it the voice of Rome, or a voice from Leitrim, or Bal- linamore, that we have been listening to for the last half hour ' — VVas it t!ic voice of Legion, or the voice of the Rev. Mr. Maguire himself ? I would be glad to know is he quite sure !hat he has given the true interpretation, or whether tiiat interpretation is hi« own, or that of his churk.li 1 I don't care which he may chose — it i^ [ i I . ■ti: • I Mi- If 1^ t !!!' m '■S 'I :' il I '!M>ii i m M i6 THE DISCUSSION. ii nil tha Mmp to me. (Tit Ims come from Rome, it is all the tame M i^' it came from iiiniseU', for, htt being tiit> child oi'Home, it is quite right tiML he shouiii copy after hit parent. He &ny« he is consiAt- ent. Nov, I say that 1 am con«istent, and truly couHiiitent. 1 am a IrueCntholit; ; I bolong to the holy Catholic church of Ivnjuland and Ireland »4 ilis* and as it has always Win; tor I my, and 1 have already proved, that the present united churcli of England and Ire- Jund haa b««n alvvayathe same church in these countries, and that it is t^^ aam ja j ii«H it was when Christianity was first establish ed here a.^^l// /xtnA l> I will reed fur you an extract from Mag- na CAarta,, iNrhi(i/'>i,;<||)iifi .at the Christian church in England w^ lh«8am«.;^i'^n,|liuL ;> uTt i' * that she enjoyed the same religious Iibertythcni«,;at she uuc:, ;.^; Our church is the diurch of Ire- land as establisi^ed by the Apostles. I do admit that $t. Patrick came from Rome, and that he preached the gospel here ; but he did to before Rome was taiib. and sunk in the grossest idolatry and auperstjtion. He .c;jme .' nn Rome when Rome wag reRpec(ablc>, and not when aha wflr«>;,|.j,rniother of harlots and of the abomina< tions of the earth. He came from hor before she became the apos- tate harlot. But what has she done since 1 She has tunce her fall, which has been plainly foretold in the revelations, and which I riiall con* to by*andbye, sent as missioners, not of peace and of truthy but of crime and dissention, which have made us the mock amdjestof the nations of the world ; and, oh ! my Roman Catholic friends, J tell you, in affection, that \ou will be so until you come out of her into the true holy ('atholic church in nil its }X)verty and ainpticity, as it was 6pst established by Christ ami his apostles. — My reverend friend saidy when I produced this map the other diy, that be thought it was the falls of Nia;;;ara ; well, it will answer hifit. He read you a portion of the text, without readingthcv > * and, my friends, when you hear it all read, you will see ^' ,ji'riti issibleit is that Constantinople can be meant, «>ri^bat the chuici of Kt. Sophia, Ahich is a Mahomedan mosque, ',irud ^ftts temple to which he directed your attention. You will see» ff)om this text, a description of the strugj^ie tliat was going on in thechurch between those who were true to the faith and those ~ ' ' corrupted it with their crimes and abominations. Michael igels fought witi"' ?! o devil and his angels. Hjjre, from '-he I2tr> hapter of Revelations, is a description of Rome when I" kin her abominations. " And tiiere appeared a wonder in hca- tiul md behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten boms, M d upon his horns ten ctowns, and upon these crowns were writte.'".' :,e names of blasphemy, and his tail drew the tlurd part of %t\9 .1. 5 of /leaven, and did cast them to the earth ; and tl:e dragon <;i.J 't »efore the woman who was ready to be diUv. leJ, for to de- r- j.aer child as soon as, it was born. And she bioiijiht forth ii lOUUTH DAY—rUlDAY. Y7 man chiid who was to i'utc oil nations with ft rod of iron, and her child was (■au<;ht itp to (ind and to his thronp, niul the woman fled into the wilderiiesH where she had a place prepared by God, ami iliat tlicy shouhi Iced her ttiere n thousand twr hundred and three- score days." Yes, my IViendu, the true ciiurch, the primitive Chris- tians were baniAhtd into tlie wilderness by the crimes and abomina' tions of Uome, but slie did not cease to exist. She was preserved by God, and hy the bh)od of the Lamb. And the text goes on Itt ' sny»** There was war in heaven. Michael and tli" nngels foiiglit against the dragon, and the dragon fought, and ''•''^ "*'' %, an*7ire- vailed not, neither was there place found an; '" •^'•;"'' .'".*'<'n: and the great dragon was cast out, that old serf ^'/''f ■'* 'u"tln' Devil and Satan, which deceivctli the whole worl' ' ' li'c^st ''■ * .;toth« earth, and his angels vvei*e cast out wiln' Wllii. And 'heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ' Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God, and the power of C'hrist ; for the accuser ot'our brethren is cast down, which accu.)r thpy loved not ti. lives unto death.* '* Yes, my llonian Cui'iolic friends, the true servants of God overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by love, ns 1 expected to overcome you, and to awaken you to a sense of the awful errors in whidiyou are plunged. The text goes on to say, •' I'ejoice ye Heavens, and ye that dvvell in them. Wot, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, for the devil is come dow n unto you, having great urath, because he knoweth that he hath but a sliort time.^ The woman banished to the wilderness was, as I have remarked, th6 true church. 8he was persecuted fur the mysterious time of 1260 days or years mentioned in the text. The beast Is again described as a leopard, beautiful in outward appearance, bMt c^uel, deceitful, and treacherous, as is the church of Rome anf'-'- ' '^^i-ftltutions. Mjr reverend friend quoted a great many Pr*'" '' ' ^Authorities, but what care I for individual Opinion. Her* '^''■W'^i.*'\iihd get)tlefnM read the 33d homily on obedience, and .J ^ '.%ed'ihg to do so, ht said-~I will put on my spectacles and road fijl^'my reverend friend what he will not tiki; to hear. I am waxing old, t^ «'K>ti not belong to the corporation of bachelors. 1 have a famil* ' ^ifliilOren, and I am sure no one thinks me the worse man on t' wwitnt. Nc-w, what does my reverend friend say to this ? Vfhik lloes he say t*" this bull of excommunication P 1 say it is a dangerous, rop"'^ ' '' and that it is a murdering bull, which has produced anardiy, and war, and bloodsbcd upon the earth. Will he say the power wfts from Christ, wjien the Pope put the kingdoms of the eai*^ 'j<^ '^ i" anathema 1 How dreadful were ihe consequences, and h-. -'.t ih I; •' f 1 1> '^M 'J I ; 'U if ?s THE DISCUSSION. M^,!! I -i"! • straw. It was not what Faber laid, what Dr. Ileylon auiti, whnt WhUtone said, or what any man •aid — the quvittion was what did God say. Mr Maguire speaks of Constantinople as the great city mantioned in the Uevelations. How, I would ask him, can that ap- ply ; do the Turks forbid marriage 1 No. He said Luther recoin- mended ten wives — why the Turks went farllier, they allowed iilty '^ or sixty wives, or as many as a man can keep. Here the reveiind gentleman read another extract from Revelations, and continued by Mving — now, reverend Sir, see the ad vantage you would have gain- ed, if you had read the whole text. 1 say that it is here clearly shown that the Roman Catholic church is the pngan church of Borne mentioned in the text — that it is Rome with all the abomi- nations of paganism revived. I will ask my reverend friend, and I think he will answer the question in the negative — how can he say that Constantinople, or the Turkish empire, is a continuation of the ipmpire of Alexander the Great ? The Pagan Rome mentioned in the Apocalypse is clearly a continuation of the Roman empire. And what childishness it is to endeavor to make Constantinople and the Turkish dominions the Pagan Rome mentioned in the Scriptures. I deplore that such a man as Mr. Maguire should be driven to such straits. Can anything be so pagan as the practice of the church of Uome ? Is it not pagan to give beads to men to pray with ? We give beads to children to amuse them ; and those trumper y arc giv- en to the professors of the Popish creed to amuse them, and lead them ofTfrom the truths which are to be found in the gospels of the living (lod. I grant you that the Popish dominion at one time near- ly ovetTan the earth, and had liberty and religion trodden under fuot, and is not quite consistent with the description given of it in the Apocalypse. He has brought forward the differences amongst Pro- testant writers as a proof that the spirit of truth cannot be amongst them. I draw from those differences quite contrary conclusions; •ndl will show you that I am right. Now, Mr. Maguire will, no doubt, exercise his wit — for there is no man better at a jest— at my saying that I prove the truth of our religion from the differences which occasially arose amongst its teachers. He v* ill say— «h, there is a theologian for you, who undertakes to prove that differences in religion are a sign of truth, I say, that they are conducive to truth. I ask you, my friends, is it not to be hoped that the di'^-'oces here between Mr. Maguire and myself will lead to trufh. The prophet Daniel says many shall run to and ,firo, and knowledge shall be multiplied. It is by making experiments that truth shall be established. It is those differences that have led me, and led you, my friends, to the truth. Had the reverend gentleman read the book correctly, he would have answered me diH'erently. It is from those differences which arises from enquiry after the truth, that I have derived the admirable system of assaulting the greatest enemy to human happiness that the world or society ever saw — that is the church of Rome, (partial applause from a portion of the au- dience.) Mr. Maguire says that the church of Rome is not the ^reat apostacy, and that the Pope is not Antichriiit. Now those are the questions which we have under consiideration, and I under « VoUaTII DAY-FRIDAY. ft tnkfi lo prove ilium fo ihfi iiiitiil of niiy man who will liH(ci) lo urgiimuiit nii«l iliu liiiih. Ilo iicciista me of iHTenlmplioii, ni'. Riirniice, niul nimost blaopheniy, when I nay humbly before my God ihat I hnve ihe spiril of iniih with nie. Now 1 will go fiiilhtiinnd Hay thai I cmihl put my linnd upon a hundred hum. ble men, coblern, Iniiors, rinkerp, and Bo.forlh, who have the spirit of God wiih (hem. Can lliut spirit be traced (o the Pope, to the Graiul Lama of modern paganism ? Mr. Maguira objects to the word spirit. I sny we, who belong lo ihe true church, have the spirit with us ; and, brethren, 1 here call on you and iuiplorv you to stirk (o that church in which is life, and truth, and happiness. He (juoted Faber m a Protestant uu. thorily to siiow that the Pope was not Antichrist, because he did not deny the faith of clnist. I don't care what any man asserts — and that wa^s a mere assertion. If a man asserts a thino^ to which all the senses give the lie, he is not lo be be. lieved. If I say thai thin sheet of paper is black, I deny that it is whitrf, and no one will believe me, Mr. M AGUiRE— If all was us clear as that we oould have no difference. Mr. Grero — I will make my proposition quite as plain. If a man tells ine that the church of Rome is not idolatrous and opposed to Christ, am I to believe him when he tells mo at the same moment that she calls upon her followers to believe that Ihe eternal God is cased in this little box ? [Here the reverend gentleman produced something like a snuffbox.] Am 1 lo be« lieve a man who will tell me thai the Church of Rome is not opposed to Christ, while he says at the same lime that Ood has reduced himself into that position that would render him oJious nnd contemptible in the eyes of mankind, (applause from some of his hearers.) Forgive me, my friends, it is hard to talk on such subjects, but I am defending the truth and I must speak ii, (here the reverend gentleman held the box up to the view of the crowd.) :-■<. .. Here his half.hour ended. Rev. Mr. Maguire — My friends, I shall endeavor to run over the wide course which my reverend opponent has taken, just for the mere purpose of rendering it difficult, if not altoge- ther impossible, for me to follow him, or lo connect so much matter into the small space of half an hour. But I tell him I am accustomed to do a great deal in that time. What shall £ begin with 1 I shall begin with the argument as to the possi- bility of putting God into a box. I ask him was not Christ on the cross, and when he was, was not God confined to that spot 1 I ask him was not Christ in the room with Pontius Pi. late, and during that time was not the Godhead confined there too 1 If not, then, was our Saviour a mere man 1 I P3k, when J II ; . 80 THE DISCUSSION. Wt} \m our Saviour says, holding out the brend, " This is my bo'y,'- will he say he is a linr '{ Will he say to him — ** It is not yotir body 1" as if (he words of the Most Iligh are to be judged by us. And from whom does this doctrine come 1 From the iW'^ vil. Luther says he got it from a ghost in the nighr, but ihiu he did not know whether it was black or white. The Jew will have an argument against your religion, in your calling to ac- count the word of God, and confining its meaning to what comes within the range of your own limited capacities. I tell you, Sir, you have no right to proncjiuice upon God's words that such is their meaning, because you cannot understand (he one that is most obvious. You admit that there is something moie than the mere bread and wine in the sacrament. If there bo not, why do you gull, and humbug, and deceive (he people by saying that there is 1 If there be something more, I will (hank you to tell me what it is. Let me a' k you, when Chiis-t enter- ed (he door of the room where the apostles were assembled af- ter the resurrection, was not God in that room 1 I tell you. Sir, God is in your pocket this moment. God is everywhere. Nowhere is there a vacuum for him. Now, gentlemen, mind the dishonest charge, not that he intended it us such — I am sure he iid not — he has brought against me. He tells you that I wanted to make out that Fciber was on Uiy side. Now, I don't want to show any such thing. I don't care on what aide he is. I quoted him to show i hat all (he Protestant wri- ters on the Prophecies, as well as Mr. Gregg himself, differed in opinion, and that not one of them knew what they were do- ing, or the meaning of a single verse of the Revelations, and they confused rather than thiew any light upon them. I quot. ed Gregg against Faber, and Faber against Gregg — I quoted Grotius, and many other divines, and now, Sir, you turn round on me and say, they were no churchmen. Oh, no, they were no churchmen, because they had loo much common sense and too much Christian charity to hold that nineieon-twentieths of the inhabitants of the woi Id were danmable idolaters. They were not mad — they did not require strait-waist coats, nor did ihey ever make such an e>:hibitio4i as you made yesterday when you roared, and thumped, and stamped, and were near being dumb with inspiration. You talk to me of tailors, and nailors, and sailors ; and you say tnat they know as much of the true religion and of the scriptures, as the cardinaLs of our church. The cardinals aie, I think you will admit, some of the most learned men in the whole world, and I tell you that neither your tailors, nor your nailers, nor your sailors, nor your- self, can know, one single word of the scriptures. I tell you, you cannot prove their authenticity — you know not that they ar« correct, Why 1 Because you have not the Syviac Ian- •W :!l-^f>jj. FOURTH DAY—FRIDAY. 81 guage in which they were originally written — you have only a smat- tering of Hebrew, Let me ask you do you know the Hebrew with- out points ? Under these circumstances, how can you know that the scriptures which you have are the true scriptures ? You can- not know it. You may tell me that you know it by the church. 1 ask you what can the church know about them during the 800 year* or more, for which she was invisible ? Your church never was in existence before the days of Luther and Calvin. It therefore never had the scriptures before then. I have challenged you repeatedly to tell me what church, what man, or set of men ever believed in or heard of the Thirty-nine Articles previous to the reign of £lza- beth. I say, no church. Therefore your church invented the twen- ty-two negative articles. My reverend friend next went to other subjects. He cnme once more to beads, and relics, and miracles. He tells me he has the spirit. Now there is not a single liar or humbuger whose object is to fool mankind that does not say the same. Now, if I were to boast as loudly as he does that I have the spirit (and indeed i have a much better right to do so than he,) it ■vould at once be said, and justly, that I wanted to impose on you. If he has the spirit let him show me that he has, and I will believe him ; but until then I cannot help thinking that it is rank nonsense. He told you that disagreements and differences as to matters of re- ligion only served to confirm the truth, and he quoted the words of tha prophet Paniel to support his position. He mentioned that they were applied to thu faithful hiding from Antichrist ; but I say they were not. They were meant, as St. Paul meant the words-— '• They were driven to and fro, and rocked about by every wind of doctrine." What, is it to be said that being driven about by every wind of doctrine is a confirmation of the truth? Then the more differences as to religion — the more Ranters, the more Socinians, the more Junipers, the more Muggletonians we have, the more will the truth be confirmed. Next, my friend turned to ihe invisi- bility of the church. Oh! why did he remind me again of that question, I had wished, for his sake, to be done with it. When I pushed him for an explanation of his belief on that point, he spoke at one time of its visibility, then of its invisibility, then of both, then he staggered and returned to the invisbiiily again. J asked him then if the church was invisible, how could it be Catholic ? He did not tell me. He quoted against the Book of Revelations, but I tell him that neither he nor any one else knows anything about it, or will know, till the prophecies it contains are accomplished. He quoted the text about the two witnesses. Now, he knows, as well as 1 know, that these two witnesses have not come yet ; that they will not come till the days of Antichrist, and that they are Enoch and Elias, who are to be restored to lite to preach the doctrine of trutW to tlie Jews, who, in those days, will once more be brought within the pale of the church. He knows, as well as I know, that Anti- christ has not come yet, and that he will not come till fire has fallen fio;n he I'cn, and till there are other awful and visible signs of his ap- proach., and I will prove to him that the " time, and times, and half a time" which he is to reign, will be but a period of three years and I ■:!! i ■■■-' . i; 1 1'] ; I:. =il ''11 m THli DISCUSSION. a half, and I will earnestly beg your attention while I demonstrate that the Pope, or the continuation of Popes, is not, and cannot, be Antichrist. I will retain this demonstration for the last demonstra- Btration for the last half hour, and if I don't prove it, and convince every one in the room that is not wilfully blind of the truth of my argument, I will be content to give up the discusion, aiid carry it no further. My reverend friend has asked, is it not the greatest nonsense that St. Sophia, in Constantinople, should be taken as hav- ing anything whatsoever to do with the part of the Revelations re- lative to the beast with seven heads and ten horns. Wliy, 1 beg leave to remind him that I do not give that as my own opinion, but as the opinion of Dr. Hcylon, J)r. Hammond, and other Protestant writers, I have their word, their honor, and their conscience for the fact. I take it upon their word, and it is little matter what my own private opinion might be if I exercised it ; and yet, notwith- standing the authorities which I quote, you tell me that my asser- tions are childish, while you yourself have scarcely given me any- thing since the commencement of the discussion, but bare unsup- ported assertions. I agree with you, Sir, in reprobating the man who attempts to give his own words for the words of God ; and I charge you. Sir, with doing so. You give me your own gloss. You tell me you have the word of God; prove it to me, and then I will believe you. You tell me that our Saviour, vTesus Christ, had not a single being to glorify his name, to kneel to him suffering on the cross of Calvary, or to give honor to him by his life for 800 years or more, and yet Christ promised that his church should last for ever. Is not that giving me your own words for the words of God ? Oh, that will stick in your throat ; and remember I will tell you ^"t it will draw upon you the judgment of God unless you repent. i>h, I wish you would do what on a former occasion I advised ano- ther to do. Sir, let me ask you did you ever read Dr. Middleton's *' Free Inquiry?" This now is coming to my proofs. Dr. Middle- ton undertakes to prove that no single miracle has been performed since the time of the apostles up to the present day. Yet we know from the scriptures that miracles will be performed by Antichrist, and that the devil will be let loose for the performance thereof. But Dr. Middleton, a Protestant divine, says none have been wrought since the days of ti-e apostles : therefore Antichrist has not come, and'therefore the Pope is not Antichrist. So much therefore, for your interpretation of the Scriptures. At one time you would not give a straw for the church. " Phoo," say you, " my hands were not tied ; I was not given over to the church, bound neck and heels." At another time you become — oh ! how orthodox — and cry out to ypar brethren to stick by the church ; no matter what may come to pass, not to leave it. The fact of it is, you are so puzzled how to make out your cause, that you actually do not know what course to steer. It is said of Antichrist and his followers that he will over- run and conquer the whole world, and on this account many excel- lent Protestant divines were of opinion that Napoleon was the An- tichribt, and you, Sir, I suppose, are aware that it was the opinion pfFabfr that Fraucci in the days of her inHdeiity, was the apostacy 1(5 refbre, for FOURTH DAY— FRIDAY. 85 mentioned in t^ie Revelations. We are told that they shall not buy and sell with us, and thatthrse of the true church will fly into the wilderness. Why, ifthat be a markofthe true church, God knows we have it in poor Ireland. Oh ! we were hunted into the wilder- ness, and persecuted with tite bitterest persecution ; and ifthat be a mark of the true church, it is certainiv here. And I will show by- and-bye who were the locusts that swarmed the land when the bot- tomless pit was opened, and who drove these locusts from the land, he says that such arguments as mine are just fit fur Ballinarnore, and not for this spot. I tell him that the men of Ballinarnore are accus- tomed to hear nothing but sound common sense. They never see any fanaticism, or madness, or jumping, or stamping. They are not used to hear men boasting of inspiration, or get into a state as you did yesterday ; when I am told it was a miracle, you did not become quite mute with inspiration. Hence it is that my arguments are adapted to their understandings, and glad I am to say, that they are fit for them. You tell me that 1 do not quote the chapter and verse of my texts. I will tell you why, Sir, because I quote from my me- mory, lam not so little acquainted with Scripture as to be obliged al- ways to be referring to the book, and, yet. Sir, 1 defy you to show me a single mis-quotation of mine. If you do, I will acknowledge that you have dont something. Oh, w.is there ever a man so confound- ed hintscif, my friends, as he, when he spoke of Magna Charta Pray, Sir, will you tell me wliere were Luther and Calvin at the* time of magna charta. Where were, the locusts then ? Oh, there was not a single one in the world. Hell had not yet been let loose, and as yet we were all benighted Papists. Now, wliat has he prov- ed by quoting the magna charta ? Why, that was established in a Catholic age and a Catholic kingdom, under a Catbniio monarch, by Catholic barons and Catliolic bishops, every o'.e oi .v;hom con- sented to this charter. Tlicref'ore, we are tho primitive church — ours are the primitive bishops, for at that time there was not a sin- gle Protestant in the world. W hy, I ask, was he so imprudf^nt as to quote magna ciiarta '( It entirely destroys 1""^ claims to the pri- niiiive bishops and priests, and it shows that the first step towards liberty was taken by Catholics. Why, my reverend friend, if you go on this way you'll never get promotion. I am sorry for you, for 1 really do not want ro ruin you, hut to exhibit you as ,i very cle- ver, talented man. But i will pro' eed. Gentlemen, my reverend friend tells you that I quote from Protestant books. Oh, he says — " Is there one word of that doctrine his own ? Is he giving you Po- ])ish doctrine ? No ; he is giving you the doctrine of Protestani writers, and I don't care a straw for them." If I quote my own wri- ters, he will laugh me to scorn. He will say, "a fig for Ballinarnore logic' Bui when I quote from the highest authorities of his church, there's the rub. Oh, he would say, " what a bad logician — what an insignificant reasoner to quote against me the authors of my own church." But, my friend, notwithstanding your dislike, I will cen- tinue to quote ihem, for they will always furnish the best argumen- inm (id lumitu'Vi I could use. Now, if you were to quote the Fa- thers against me, how could I consistently deny anything they con- 8t THE DISCUSSION, i i !'' i i 11 tain. If they be adduced in support of a position to wliicli I am op- posed, how can I refuse to agree with tlicm 'I And will you now make iiars of Heylen, and Faber, aod Hammond, and Taylor, and Grotius. Ifyou do not make liar* of tliem, tl'en is your argument of our apostacy and of the Pope's being Anticluist upset, and all the jittle brains in your head" are scattered to the wind, (iiissing and clapping of hands-) Kev. Mr. M'Namapa called forord?r. He begged oftlie meet- ing not t.0 create such interruption. Rev. Mr. Maguire — I quoted Protestants relative to the prohi- bition of cnting meat on certain days. It is true I ought to quote the Fathers on all the points on which I have preferred the testi- mony of Protestants, but then I knew that he looks on them as half heretics, and a certain gcnthvuan was procured, I will not say by him, to write to me in order to induce me to give up the Fathers, But I ne- ver will give them up. I will stand by them. But at the same time I will use the Protestant writers. Thus I stand upon the scriptures, not as interpreted by me or my church, but as interpreted hytht' divines of his church. He talked of my not giving the context — I ask why did he not give it, and show that it in any manner changed the na- ture of the text. He quoted much from the Apocalypse — now I say, there is not a lady or gentleman here that cat: understand the exact meaning of that hook, and yet you quote a passage, according 'to which all our forefathers for 800 years are damned to all eternity. A grateful ond a natural son of the primitive church you are, indeed. I have already proved that it was to the Manicheans and Prici- nians that St. Paul alluded when ho spoke of those who mentioned that it was unlawful to eat meaf, and that to join one's self to a fe- male in marriage was unlawful. I'hese were tiie only sects who men- tioned such doctrine, The .Manicheans held that it was the devil who join man and woman in marrigo. We i>ever believed that marriage is unlav "i;l. We {u;':no,vli'dge t!:e dignit}' of marriage. We say that it has been raised to a sacrament by Clirist, and that any one and every one may marry, unless he has taken a vow to the contrary. But if any one who hii,i made a solemn vow not to mar- ry, then he is guilty of a damnable sin. He quoted a passage from a letter of St. Leo's the Great to show that he condcnmed the Ma- nichean heresy. Jf, then, this heresy were condeuined by our church, on account of the very doctrine which he ascribes to us, it is a proof that we diffir from them as much as he. So mucli, tlien, for the truth and correctness of n)y friend's glossing interpretation. Here the half-hour ended. ]{ev. Mr. Gregg— Cin^'rnien, I say, ifash.gle unkhul or disipa- raging expression, with itgard to my reverenU friend, has fallen from me since the commencement of this discussion, I (uhnit thi.t it is ground for saying that I am wrong. I trust tiiat 1 huve oil along acted, and that 1 will nil along act towards him as one gentle- man should act towards another ; and if I do sometimes laugh a little at his arguments, which J consider no sin, I will do so with kindness and with respect, I leave all the personalities to him — I will have nothing to da with them. Welh hi re now are eighteen FOURTH DAY— FRIDAY. volumes— vMch of tliom sliall I begin with'? Come, f will take the Magna Chiuta. Now, wlitit will you siiy if I prove that in giv- ing this cliwrter our ancestors acted as Prottstants. It is a fact. I will prove it. Our ancestors gained this charter from the tyrant John, and lie, after being forced to sign it, appealed to fiie I'opc, who put the kingdom under an interdict en account of tlie barons having refused to give up the charter. They kept it up though, in spite of all that could be done, and tliis, in my opinion, waa some- thing like a bursting out of the Protestant spirit which was latent in the country. But see what a wretched charter it is. Hov^ meagre was the liberty it ^"^ave when compared with the freedom \vl !>• , we now enjoy. It conDnu^d the existence of bondage and slavery , and gave but the shadow of liberty to be enjoyed by ti.e subject ; that is becan.;e it did not emanate from a Protestant people. Ohjes, it is to I: ^ Protest unts that we owe the liberty we enjoy, it is to them that my friend, Mr. Maguire, owes the power which he has of thus freely expressing his Ojinions. Now let me ask him could there be such a discussion in Popish Spain or Italy ? Oh no ; if 1 were to speak there as I have spoken here, they would soon pro- duce the long blesseJ sword, and make me as tame as a lamb. Then, I ask. is there free expression of opinion there I No ; they have their liber cxpuvf^aionus, and they expimge everything from a \< ork whi' h they do not wish to reach the public ear, or they entire- ly suppress it, and only allow to get abr^vad such publications as may tend to keep the p-ople under their yoi.e. Let my friend, then, be careful how he speaks of liberty coming from tlie church of Rome. A word to tlie wise. He says that miracles will be the mark of Antichrisi. I agree uith him; and tliat is the very reason why T fasten the lianieupon his cliurcfi. True miracles are wrought in our church — false miracles in yours. Now, remember, I say I do not care one fig for another's opinion. I do not mean, h.iwever, to say that I set up my own as infallible. I know it signifies but little what my own opinion is unless it is suppojted by scripture, and by the public opinion of the church. But when that is the case, I Care not for any man's opinion. 1 promised you a map. Herejtis. [H'jre lie displayed a map painted in the same colour as, and some- what similar to, the map which he exhibited on the first day. There was the gold colour at the upper part, intersected with streaks of scarlet, which spread out, and was in its turn intersected with streaks of gold, which separated at length from the scarlet, and became again a large mass of gold. Out of the upper gold were two small streaks of gold, intersected also with scarlet. This scarlet spread in the same way as on the other part, and was intersected by streaks of gold, which also separated from the scarlet, and formed a distinct gold body.] You see (said he) this gold is the true, primitive, holy, ('atholic church, whicli I love, admire, and glory in. Here, ema- nating from it, is the primitive Irish church established by St. Pa- trick, which, you perceive, bora within it the seeds of corruption, and grew as scarlet as the great body of the chuich. About the year 606 >t began to be corrupt, and continued so till about the year 1,500, when our primitive bishops saw their error, and the church ; •■■ si J ,»: li i.; i:' i 86 THE DISCUSSION. ill > Mil returned to its original state, which is again represented by the gold •olour. Into that gold from the scarlet of the great body, there is n stream as it were of scarlet, which represents the mission of monks, and friar?, and bishops sent over here by the head of tliu apostate church. This scarlet joins the gold, which, however, is still to be seen in a body ; and you perceive that it is getting dnrk< crand darker, like the great body, and it will meet with a similar destruction. There, you see, is the primitive Irish church pure as gold ; next is the church corrupted ; then we were drunk, and knew not what we did ; but, recovering, we returned to the faith ; and then we have the Pope sending over the missionaries. You all see it. I trust you understand it. It agrees with the other map, which I call a stream, while I denominate this a platform. I wish, Sir, 1 nould get you to understand me. If you would but examine, you would see that 1 have reason on my side. You see now that I have reason, and that \ also have powerful arguments from scripture in my favour; and besides 1 am privileged to say that I have individual communications from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. If I have failed in convincing you of this, be not severe towards me, but give me a little indulg<.'nce. I do not say, mind you, my friends, that 1 can convince him ; but I say I can prove my propositions. I may demonstrate a thing so that it is as clear aa light ; but unless God giveth his grace, faith will not follow. You tell me. Sir, that I have an interest in your prayers ; I tell you that you have an inter- est, not merely in mine, but in the prayers of all good Protestants in this kingdom. Now, my friend, bear kindly the observations I am about to make. I only do so for your good and the good of all those around me. I say that the miracles of your church are fa!se and nonsensical. Only think of a man carrying his head under his arm a distance of twelve miles, or two miles, it does not matter which ; and think of a child vlio was so wonderfully pious, that though he used to suck well on every othvr day never sucked more than once on Fridays, and, 1 believe, Wednesdays twice. Mira- cles, my friends, are of two kinds, as I conceive. First, there is a supernatural operation — that I call a miracle of power. Secondly, there is a supernatural interference — that I call a mystery of Pro- vk.ence. The first embraces all those which Jesu? Christ wroaght to convert the people to Christianity. The second kind of miracles are those which no exi rnal change is produced, but the effect of which is still visible ai.d great. The ^ripture gives numerous examples of both. Of the first I have mentioned an instance — for one of the second T refer you to Scripture — to the various passages where God's particular care of individuals is recorded. Take the history of.loseph as an exivrnple, sc'e him plotted against by his bre- thren, in order to be put to death — see him in the pit, just about to be killed, and see the Ishmaelites ai^prraching just at the moment when the hearts of his brethren were disposed to be softened, and when they were inclined to spare his life. See him borne mto Egypt — see him entering into Patiphar's house — see the temptations he endures, and how he overcomes them — see him cast into prison, and again triumphant over his enemies — see him the first man in Mi'i, FOWITH DAY—riUDAV. w Egypt ; in tlint situation aee him preserving his fViciicIs and tlie whole world. Here we have a miracle of I'rovidcnce, nnd is not that as great a miracle ns any niirucle of power ? Such miracles at this, however, are not fitted to convert an infidel, but they i\o tend to confirm the Christian, and make him glorify (lod for his wisdom and beneficence. Now, iSir, take up the scriptures, examine them, and say are not all miracles of either ofthose classes, and say if the order which I have described be not preserved. You will see that previous to conversion, the Lord used the miracles or power, and afterwards the miracles ofProvidence, to conHrmthcm in their con- version. This was the case with the miracles of" Moses before Tia- raoh, and afterwards till the Israelites had crossed the Red Sea. it was necessary at first to convert Pharaoh to the will of the Lroii, and to convince the people of his Rreatness, but when the people were fully established in the faith, their only miracles were those of intervention. First Moses had to clian},'e his rod into a serpent ; that was not suiHcicrit. The magicians did the same, and Pharaoh and the people wore not convinced. He then made his rod eat up their rods, and performed several other miracles of power ; but when these became unnecessary they were not continued. Now, I ask you. Sir, h this my gloss, and may i not artjue from this that a si- milar order is observed under the new law / We have now no true miracles of power, because they are unnecessary ; we arc convinced ; we need now only such miracles as may confirm us, and we have such miracles. Look to the testament and you will see — '' Is it not the Lord that healeth your diseases V When a physic'an discovers a cure, either in tlie sh .pe of medicine, or "something el.>-e, for the dis- eases of our frame, do we not see in it the finj^er of (lod as it were revealed to the world. Now, Si», look at Protestantism — look at Pro- testant England and Protestant America, and oe is it with tlieni tiie greatest number and the most magnificent (h"rcoverics are made. I grant you that occasional discoveries have been made in the flou- rishing daj's of Popery, anr that occasional discoveries are still made in Popish countries ; but it is now that our eyes have been opened to true religion ; that the flood of wis^dom and science is flowing over the world. Now, I ask, does not this incline us more to glorify Gad and give him praise, t'lan reading any such absurdi- ties as that about !^t. Denis and his head, and the man who came to a river, and not being able to cross Diher vise, put liis cloak on tlia water and sailed gloviou!^ly over ? This is not the timo when such miracles are wanted, and 1 deny t'>tir pjrformnncc in these days. If there be any miracles performed in the ilomish church, they are false miracles, and can only be performed " in sight of the beast." But the miracles in our church are true, thou«;h they are not mira- cles of power. By us the njountains are levolledj the winds are out- stripped, the waters are overcome, and light is sent into the bowels of the earth, and the kinj;(Iom is exalti;U to a pitch of glory which makes her the envy and the wonder of the world ; and which may well justify us in .saying, "Glory he to t'le I\it!ier, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the higiuni; ;j;, i;? now and ever feiiall he, woiUrwithout tutl. Auicii.'" I now 5.iy tlia' the holy Ca- .; ■' i;; ■m^ 811 uiiii L>ii3\^f St. Denis, and found it ; but it did not contain a sin- gle word a 3ut his currying his head after death. In iMiddlcton's Rome I find tlmt it is believed there that St. Paul's head jumped three times on the scaffold after he was beheaded. I searched Mr. Coyne's Lives of the Saints for that, and it says not a word about it. There again we have St. Patrick. Lots of miracles and won- ders performed by him are related ; but some of these are kept back in his life. And why are tlicse miracles kept back? Lest they should meet the eyes of Protestants, wlio, (hey know, would never believe them, and would laugh at the faith that encouraged such mockery. Now, I do not think this is acting quite consistently. If these miracles be true, why not publish them 1 'vhy k?cp them back ? I put it to the candour of the reverend gentleman if what I say be not correct ? If my conclusians be not correctly drawn, It-t him still bear with me, I mean not to misrepresent his religion or its doctrines. He has told me that I am to meet with some visible judgment. So have the old Irishwomen in Sheffield told me. *'0h,'' they would say, " if the priest was hero he would fasten you to the ^ound.'' Now, it' he can do so, let him. If Mr. Magiiire can fas- ten me to this spot, let liim confirm his brethren by doing so ; or let him change me into some animal — let him change me into a goal if he can. False miracles are then the proof of Antichrist. We hear of some of them occasionally in this country. We heard of one the other day in England ; but they thought it better to say very little about it. But 1 will show you that they are as thick gs ever they were in Some. Only the other day one was proved by a groat jiumber of witnesses, in the usual form, and with tlie usual number of oaths. Mark, now, what is said of those miracles in the Revela- tions, "and I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon, and he ex- erciseth all the power of the.^rst beast before him, and eauseth the earth, and them that dwelleth therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed ; and he doeth great wonders, so that he mukcth pitchy fire come down from heaven on the earth in lOURTH DAY— fRIDAY. et tlic aiglit of men ; anil decciveth them that dwell on the earth by ilie means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast.'* Mark me, lie had power to do them in sight of the beast, but not out of his sight, and so they continue to be done in anti-Christian Rome, Now, I won^t call upon Mr. Maguire to work a miracle. No, that would be unfair. But I call upon him to observe the length, and breath, and depth of my arguments, and to say if common sense be not on my side. If bethink not, still I beg of him to bear with me. The reverend gentleman must excuse me in go- ing further with his propositions. He says that I objected to the second book of Maccabees, because it recommended self-murder. Now, I did not say any such thing ; and mark me, I am very cau- tious in my expressions, as those who have seen my use of the defi- nite article the in my letter have, no doubt, seen what I said was that the spirit of the passage would seem to recommend self murder. I grant you that taking the letter of the passage, it is in your favour. But I shall quote it, and that shall set us right. Rev. Mr. Maguike — I dare say, my friends, it would be rather unkind of me to refuse rendering any possible satisfaction to the Rev. Mr. Gregg, if he conceived that any of my remarks have been personal. I do confess he has taken me on my weak side, and I declare there is not a single man who entertains a better feeling or less hostility for him than 1 do. I commenced this discussion by saying that if any hasty or warm expression dropt from me during the progress of it, it should not be considered as having proceeded from anger or ill will. And now, though I may appear to nave been personal, I wish the reverend gentleman would try what my feelings are by coming to Ballinamore, and that he would see that he should have the best potato and the best sup in the house, and a welcome, (laughter.) After all, God knows it is natural enough that one should feel excited when he hears the head of his church described as Antichrist — the religion which he professes as damnable and ido- latrous, and a long line of glorious ancestors spoken of as they have been. Imagine to yourself, reverend Sir, what you would (eel if I said your religion was damnable and idolatrous, and that it was the offspring of the beast with seven horns. Lot us not be angry with one another for any hasty expression we may use. For my part I shall be sorry to offend you — for \ do say I never met a roan with more perfect honor or candor thar. you have proved yourself to be ever since the commencement of ;his discussion, (cheers.) I sh^U say very little now about the book of Maccabees. I have given you fruni scripture proof of its canonicity. You say that the spirit of the passage which was in dispute is with you, and that the letter of it is with me. It is about the spirit that we have been (quarrelling since the commencement of this discussion. I believe it is about the spirit we will be quarrelling to the end, though if you had not been so presunipcious in claiming it, I do not think I would have in- terfered with you. Now, then, my brethren, 1 shall go like a cr^b bo.ckwarils wifli my notes. My reverend friend 'talked at the end of his speech of not calling on me to work a miracle. Why, if he did cill on me, 1 wuulcl tell him plainly, I would not have had faith AuJfi- ■I tl $0 rm: dish'sskjn. ; i \ 1 : I cient to do to. ']'lion<^h I believe that Cliri«t lift tite power in lu'i church of working nv teles, yet I do not tliink tlmt a inirHcle can hn wrought by any individual belonging to that ciiurch wl r>evcr he pleases. The apostles got power fronj our Saviour to prr'unii mira- cles, but they could not perform them whenever they liKed. 1 beg of him to recollect that they can only be performed now and again, as it may seem good to the Holy Ghost. He talks of the miracle of St, Denis carrying Ids head under his arm after he was killed. "Sow I tell him for his information, that I may or I may not be*' vc in that or any other miracle not mentioned in the scriptures. r church does not bind us to believe in those miracles. I hold > ly hand Eu«ebiu», Tltcodoret, and a writer of his own church. Doctor Caius. All of these relate to miracles that were performed. The last of them says tlmt Gregory Thaumaturgus moved a mountain. How many also are related by St. Augustine, who tells us of innu- merable miracles performed at the shrine of one saint alone ? I think I saw a Jew, or something very like one, in the room a while ago. Now, this Jew taking up your own argument, might argue against the miracles performed by Christ and his apostles, for you cuuld not prove to him, as I have often i»aid before, the divinity of the scriptures. He would tell you that these miracles were per- formed by the power of the devil ; for you will recollect that the Jews, when the same judicial blindness was on them which is now on you, said that our Saviour cast out devils by Bclzebub, the prince of devils. I ha"«.> said that you are labouring under a judicial blind- Bfiss^ nnd so you aiv>, for notwithstanding that you know that the best of y^us' ■wnieta have acknowledged the performance of miracles in our church since ths days of the apostles, you attribute them to the devil. Suppose now I wanted to make a humbug of a miracle, have I not a fine opportunity to do so, with our Saviour^s miracle of turning the devil, Legion, out of a man that was possessed, into the herd of swine. Could J not say, here's a humbug ? Imagine our Saviour's setting a parcel of pigs mad, and finally beggaring the owner of them by driving them into the sea. It was foretold that there should be no false miracles till the coming of anti-Christ, and X will prove that he has not come yet ; and further that the dura- tion of his reign— the "time, and times, and half a time" is only three years and a half, instead of the long period which you would make out ; and I will show you that when he does come, the two witnesses who are to preach the true cliurch are Enoch and Elias, -who will be restored to the earth for the salvation of the Jews. ■ le talked of the miracle of Moses before Pharoah. The very example which he has quoted, serves as an argument for me ; for we see there that God would not allow false miracles to appear true, and, therefore, he gave Moses power to make his rod swallow up the rods of the magicians, afler they had all been changed into serpents. Now, Sir, I think I have proved that I know something about the doctrine of miracles, and I think I will show that I know somctliing of the nature also. I admit your talents and the clearness of your mind ; but then, whenever you come to speak about Protestantism you are completely blinded by prejudice. Let him not any longfi' FOLK TH DAY— FRIDAY. 91 grntlemen, Immbug St. Denisi'ii miracle ofrnrrying his head URder hi» arm I think ho would have o better one in St. Diinstnn nulling the devil's nose. I repeat again thnt I may believe these miracles, or I may not; and though lum not bound, I do believe them. You, of course, are at libeity to be incredulous. God gave his church power to work minicles. He also gave power to Antichrist to per- form them, though \\U days v ill be short, lest any of the elect should be deceived. Recollect that this demonstration is to come. You tell me, Sir, that you could not ;;et the story of St. Denis in because the if you wish ti> ^'ice, and if ou f,o one. wa» there, uuoui every day. the English Lives of the Saints. I will tell you Breviary was never yet translatec^ into Englisf translate it, I shall be very happy to lend oi you wish to have a miracle to laugh at, I think A certain Pope once went over to Portugal, an he used to borrow the queen's mare, and ride When he went, the marc had become so conscious of the high ho nor conferred on her, and the holy burden she had borne, that she never permitted the queen to mount lier any more. You may be surprised at the story, but I tell you it is related. We may believe it to be a miracle, or we may not. The friars at once set it down for a miracle. The fact is undoubted ; but it Is not so certaint that the animal may not have learned nrw tricks from a bad rider. My reverend friend tells mc that my Protestant brethren have very kind feelings towards me- In all my life I never experienced anything otherwise. I fear now that their feelings will be a little soured on account of this discussion, during which I have used some harsh and disagreeable terms, for which I am now exceedingly sorry. But I trust tliat they will recollect that I am forced into this discussion — that I was bearded to my very face, till I was obliged to engage in it : not that I seek to throw any blunie on my reverend friend for acting as he has done. On the contrary, I think that his conduct has been most proper. But let us proceed. My reverend friend pays that all liberty comes from Protestantism. Now, let me ask you, before I go any farther, do you seriously hold that Thomas a becket was a Protestant ? You must know that it was he who call- ed together the conservative bishops — for there were conservatives, and rank torics, too, amongst the Catholics in those days. Who, in conjunction with the barons, resisted the tyrant John, and forced from him the magna charta ] You will also see that at this time the church needed a little persecution in order to purify it. Now, if you say that Thomas a Becket was a Protestant, though you are a man of undoub ed veracity, and have acted throughout this con- troversy as a man of honor, 1 would never again believe your the> ological word. Well, then, it was a benighted, priest-ridden, Po- pisii bishop that was the means of obtaining the magna charta ; and this same bishop, you will recollect, died at the altar while cele- brating some Popish ceremony, a martyr to liberty. You say that this was t!\e outburst of Protestantism, which was latent in Eng- land. Well, then, if you wish, John was the head of the Protestant church — if so, why did he appeal to the Pope? Why did he ac- knowledge the authority of thi^ sovereign pontiiTon more than one :;l ' lijil [t IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I Hi §23. 12.5 150 *^^ M^Bl u^ Ki£ 12.2 ui lift us u HUi. ; i£ nio L25 iU 11.6 I ftiotographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STRUT WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716)S73-4S03 m THE DISCUSSION. occasion? You have talked of relics and images, and idotutry. I tell you, Sir, you worship that map which you produced, and the members of your cliurch in this kingdom worship the image of Wil- liam of Orange as much as I or any Catholic ever worshipped the picture, the image, or the relic of a saint. I tell you I could prefer against you, with a greater semblance of truth, the charge of idolatry for your reverence to the statue of the murderer of Glencoc, than your charge of a similar kind against us, for adoring images could wear. You may say that I want to impose upon you. You see in this room not less, I am sure, than five hundred Roman Catholics. What an impostor — what a villain — what a hypocrite would they think me, if I spoke not the truth in this particular. « Oh"' they would say, '* the monster — the wolf in sheep's clothing, be shall not again be admitted into the fold. He taught us to love, to honor, to glorify, to adore tl^se images, and picti ;es, and relics ; and yet he comes, and has the audacity to say in our presence, that they are no more than the statue of the murderer of Glencoe, or than the commonest picture. I tell that this is ti)e case. We worship tlie picture of a saint, or of our Saviour, just as much as you would wor- ship the picture of a near relation or a dear friend. We honor and respect the images, and pictures, and relics of Christ and his saints, because they remind us of them, and for no other rea&on ; nor do we pay them greater honor. Now, Sir, if you do not believe me after this solemn declaration, in tlie presence of God and of this as- sembly, on you will be the consequences. Do not, then, in God's name, let me hear of relics any more. We have had enough of them, i solemnly say T would be an idolater if I worsiiipped them ; but be- fore God and man, and high heaven, I protest that neither I nor any Boman Catholic ever did. I believe I have now rambled over all the parts of your rambling speech, from the end to the beginning. In order to finish the questioji of apustucy, I propose that we shall stay till three o'clock to-day. Kev. Mr. Gregg — I agree. Uev. Mr. Maouire— Hear now what Bishop Montague, one of your first rate divines, says on the subject. I refer you to pages 74< and 75 of Montague's " Guide." He read a passage from tlie work, which was to the effect that he was not of opinion that the name anticln-ist was applicable to the Popes, either personally, or in con- tinuation. I know, he continued, that your belief that the Pope is antichrist is not contained in any of your articles ; but then I know it is in your homilies. It is true one-half of your divines. donH be- lieve a single word in those homilies, and a great many of ihem don't brieve half your articles. A'ou yourself may remember there was a deacon in your church who said he only believed 18 of the 39 arli- cJos. Thorndike, another of your divines, in the 1st chapter of his " Just Weights and Measures," says — •• They that separate from the Church of Home as idolatrous are schismatics." There is the opinion of one of yourselves for you. He quoted several long ptis- sages from Hishop Parker's " Reasons for Ailvocating the Test." They were to the effect that before bringing so bloody an indict- ment as apostacy against a large majority of the human race, the FOUttlH DAY-FRIDAY. 9d fjiiestion shoiiUl be well weighed. That " njwstncy and anli- christ were too big for scolding words.'' That " alter oil we have no grounds for affixing the name antichrist to the Roman Catholic Church, save the crude opinions of some popular di. vines." That " it is a piece of inhumanity that outdoes the eavageness of cannibals, and claims the body and the soul," &c. &c. TherCj said he, is a Protedtanl divine for you. Oh, Lord bless Us. So you outdo the cannibals. After a few more remarks, the half-hour ended. . h Rev. Mr. Gregg — Well, gentlemen, I have stated before what my views are as to miracles. Now, he has spoken as if I had argued against the validity of true miracles aitd in the true chuich. Now I have not done any such thing. But I do say that the i^iiracles of the Roman Cuiholic Church are aot true miracles, and it is against them I argued, and the reasons which I have for believing in the miracles wrought by Christ and his apostles are the very same which induced me to say that the Rotnan Catholic iniracles are damnable. I do not deny that these miladis^ hav6 been wrought, but I say if they have, they have been wrought by the power of the devil, and that God has nothing to do with them. The great majority of those impostures have been performed immediately " in the sight of " the beast," that is.to say, in Rome. The bible say? that there are both true miracles and false. And the Revelations tell tie that antichrist, or rather the apostate church, shall have power to perform miracles. That apostate church, as I have often- said, is the churcli of Rome, whose miracles, we know frdm the Bi- ble, are delusions. 1 believe and I glory in true miracles, be- cause the Bible tells me to do so. I do not mock at ihem ; and 1 tell you. Sir, that I saw some faces in this room that did not seem to think that it Was a subject to be treated so liglitly as you have treated it in palming upon us the story of the Pope and the horse, or the ass — for I really forget which animal it was. And I also tell you, that if you believe in these miracles you should defend them, or if you do not believe in them, you should raise your voice against them, and not trust them aia matters to be believed or disbelieved, just as one may choose. I tell you. Sir, this wilt not answer. It does not look well. You should either say they are true, and uphold them, or false, and reject them ; otherwise it would seem that you are making a joke of the question. I beg of you to give up reading solitary texts with a view to the support of a particular question, and to read the whole Bible, coiinparing one part with another, ahd not drawing your conclusions from isolated facte. If they were to support in what is good and holy, it tvould be a differ- ent thing. But they do not. They maintain you in a delu- sion the worst and most abominable that ever man was in, and n.r H THE DISCUSSION. \ that is, the delusion und the Atltiehood that God rewarded nny- one for committing a venial ein. I beg, gentlemen^ to ask, is not that blasphemous ? Is it not dreadful doctrine t What is the object of the entire Bible 1 To convey an enlarged idea of iho greatness of sin of every kind. Talking of sin — let me aak yon what sin was it brought death into the world, and inado every one in it liable to damnation 1 The sin which produced such awful effects was, according to your doctrine, but a vcniul sin. Yet for such a ein, producing such consequences, and ex. citing to such a degree the wrath of God, you say that God re. warded any one. Oh, the saying blasphemises and defames the character of the living God. But let me come to the pae. sags concerning Rahab. But before I do, I must have the pri. vilpge of an innocent laugh at your expense. He must, gen. tlemen, excuse me. I canH resist it. He says that Thomas a Becket Uved and was put to death in the reign of King John. Whereas every one knows that he lived and died in the reign of Henry Che Sesond, and had as much to do with magna charta as I had. Now there's Popery for you ! There's the effect of Popery. See how a single error in a man's mind will affect him in every thing he says and does, just as I have said, as if a man were to imagine himself a houseclock, all his ac. tions would be tinged with that belief. He sitys, if I catch him in a misquotation 1 will have done something. Yesterday, in speakieg of the midwives before Pharaoh, he tsaid that St. Paul referred to them. Now I say he did no buch thing and is not that catching him in a misquotation ? I do not mention this for the sake of disparaging him, but for tae suke of exposing the system which he supports, which is not merely negatively bad, but which teaches the most monstrous and most abomin. able doctrines. Now I come to the case of Rahab. , And, oh ! Rev. Mr. Maguire,! again repeal, I wish you would not confine yourself to the studying of particular texts with a particular view, but would study the whole Bible, and try and grasp its general meaning, which, with your powerful mind, you pould well do. I tell you it may do well in social places, but it never will answer when you have caught a tartar. It may do in Bal. linainore, but it will not do here. Let us come now to Rahab. She had the gift of faith beforehand, and she had that gift by observing as well as hearing. She observed the feelings of her countrymen, and she saw what the effect would be if she told the truth to them. She saw that they trembled and were afraid, and she knew fronn the gtft of that faith which was re. vealed to her that she should have concealed them, and told a lie with respect to her knowledge of them. My friends, things are easily discerned — futine events nre easily diijcerned by signs. One of the reasons by which I know that Popery is to FOURTH DAY— FRIDAY. 95 be destroyed is, that I observe men*s liandii tieinble when ihey stand up in defence of it. In England, when I ulood furth lo oppose Popery, I saw this tremour and (his l.reiiibllng. ii is after the manner in which devils trejnbie before ihe suirit of God. Popery will be destroyed, and Protestuniisni, that i$ ^low dispersed and hunibid, will be in the udcendunt. But to return to Rahab and the question about venial sin — it was uiie of^ those occasions where the just man may fall seven limes a day, and still stand justified in the eyes of God. She was iuw. tified when she told the lie. But I say it would have been bef . ter had she told the truth, and left the consequences to God. But mark me, my friends, I say that the faith which justified her in telling the lie existed before the act. U it not horrible to hear the reverend gentleman talk of what he calls venial sins, and parade them as mere jokes, and openly, declare that, those sins are fit objects of reward from God t He says that I have assurance and presumption when I assert that I have the spirit of God with me. I gloty in the possession of that spirit which he seems to disregard. I wish that the result of this dis. cussion were to depend upon this spirit. He says that I have assurance when I assert that I have the spirit with me ; but does he not give absolution ; and ought not the person who re. ceives absolution have an aciurance that the person whc' gives it has the spirit of God with him ? Mark hero the traces of apostacy, and the dilemma into which these people are driven. Again, do not the Roman Catholics receive the eiicharist as the body and blood of Christ 1 — and ought not the priest who > sayd that he changes these elements by consecration, believe that he has the spirit of God with him 1— and ought not the persons recei?ing it believe that they have the spirUr of God with them 1 No, my friends, they receive it doubting whether they have the spirit of God with them ; and there is a dreadful vacuity in the mind, and they become every day worse and more steeped in sin. On the other hand, I and the Protestanlf who think with me, look in reality to the true Christ. The hu man soul that is in want, and is as it were in search of a deity*^ is comfortable and happy in the contemplation of the true spi.*' rit which comes from God. Without it, it is like a fisli out oj^' water. But, my friends, what do we see on the other side 1 What are Roman Catholics content with ? Satan is constant. ] ly deludhig them with bits of ra^fs, nails, bones, scapulars, and \ trumpery of that description. Let ipe have something I ran look 9.U Let me have the true and living God, whom I can, contemplate. The reverend gentleman asked me to show^ , him a miracle. Let him turn to his Bible and he will find that ! the spirit of prophesy is the testimony of '.he Lord. He will find there that all is not worth anything without the spirit, until H. u (^ THE DISCUSSION. the soul is made complele in Christ. I object to his imnge« worship and to the doctrine that sins may he rewarded. (Here the reverend gentleman took out a piece of paper having a heart painted on it in red.) He said — Now, my friends, 1 will show you idolatry — gross idolatry. Here is a picture — a things and here is a prayer, which I will read to you, addressed to this thing. The reverend gentleman then read as follows : — ** O adorable heart of my amible Jesus I I adore thee with, the most profound homoge I am capable of. I beg thy pardon for all my past oflTences, irreverences, and sacrileges. I acknow. ledge their injustice and enormity ; and also for t\l\ the linsand ingratitudes which have hitherto ever been committed against thee/* &c. &c. He then continued — I say that this is idola. try, and that all the sophistry and false reasoning of my re. verend opponent will never be able to convince rational men that it was not rank idolatry. If I went into a room and saw a man committing murder — cutting another man's throat., would I, although he denied the fact, believe contrary to the evidence of my senses t You have heard the silly argument of my reverend friend about the statue of King William in Col. lege.green, or the statue of King George, in Stephen's green. It would lead you to believe that because these statifes are ex. hibited in public, wc are all idolaters. Really, ii is deplorable to see the subterfuges to which he is obliged to have recourse. Here the half-hour ended. Rev. Mr. Maguirg— My friends, you perceive after all that this spiritualized Protestant has said about himself, and all the tact he has manifested, he has done everything but grappled with the question proposed to him. So much the better for me— -for he has left me little to do, and I promise you that, in less than five minutes, I will meet everything that he has said, worthy of notice, within the last half.hour. I will begin first with his^ last sentence, and I tell you, my Protestant friends, that I don*t accuse you of idolatry, because you go around King William, and I never did — but I say that we could ac. euse you of idolatry on as good grounds as you could the Ro" man Catholics ; but we all eschew idolatry. He must be foolishly blind, if he did not see that I made no such accuse, tion ; but he that is blind, let him be blind still ; and he that is foolish, let him be foolish still. I proved from the scriptures that there could not be idolatry in the Christian religion. I showed you, when he spoke of false miracles, that he accused God of having broken his piomise to the church— but Mr. Gregg does not understand this part of the scripture. I final after all (hat he is a bad theologian. He ought to have known that God would not have given the broad seal of his approba. tion to imposture and deceit that there oould be no sucli thing FOURTH DAY-FRIDAY. 97 in (he church as false miracles. Now, Mr. Gregg, you admit miracles ; but how can they be found in vour church until you prove (hat she is infallible 1 You say that she is fallible, and tnat you yourself are fallible, although you pretend to have the spirit of God with you. How then can you build up anything infallible on that which is fallible.? for, according to your own showing, you have neither the scripture nor (he church with you. Here I put the question to you— can you build up an infalibility upon that iKiiich is fallible 1 Give ]rour an. swer. You have no answer to give ; and that fact will be re. corded against you before God and man: You talk to me of miracles ; but you could not prove to me that ever there was a miracle wrought in your church. This shows to me that your attack was deistical. I tell your church, not yourself— for it is your church that I wish to attack — Mr. Gregg, that you have not the power of miracles, and that such a power could never belong to a church that was fallible. There is the dilemma, Mr. Gregg, get out of it if you can. You accuse mjB of quoting St. Paul wron^ about the roidwivea. I qnoted him in the same way I did with respect to Rahab. St. Paul said that by faith Rahab persisted in not giving up the spies. I will come now, my frienas to show the ignorance of theology of this spiritualized Protestant. He says that Rahab ought to have told the truth, and left the consequences to God ; al- though St. Paul saya that by faith she persisted in receiving the spies, and refusing to acknowledge she knew anything of them. Now, I will ask him can a person commit a morti|l sin by faith 1 Answer that short preparatory queslion,Mr. Gregg, before I go further, oiyacknowledffe that you cannot^ and do- ing so your whole argnment falls to the ground, and here I stand triumphant. St. James says of the apostles, " in many things we offend :" will you, reverend Sir, say that the apostles were in the habit of committing mortal sin 1 Here now I show up your Protestant ignorance — here now 1 reduce you to a di- ' lemma, and let Trinity College get you out of it if (hey can.' You thought you had a great triumph over me because when ' 1 got into history my memory failed me aiid I made a«nistake; but will you be able to show me that sirlce I commenced this controversy, with regard to the church or the scriptures, my memory has failed me, or that I have fallen into the slightest error. This, if I were presumptions, would be enough to show me that I have the Spirit of the Holy Ghost with me. la things relating to the church I am invincible, eccJtfsia inmutaim m e$t I asserted that Thomas A'Becket had nothing to ^ do with magna chnrta. I osked was he a papist or a Protes. tant, but (he reverend gentleman was not able to answer me. Christ made a promise to liis church and to liis eposes that «WT<|i 'I I. 'i Hi V THE DISCUSSION. ' Ite wniiia be wiHi I hem to the eod of the world. Did he inak« niiy Nucb promise to the new apostle, Martin Luther, or to any of the kings of England— «ind by the way Martin wrote a book Against one of these kings, these heads of the church, " Qm. trn maletlicium regem JSngliea.** It is evident, my friends, that I have the spirit of irnth with me, for 1 have not been seduced to rambling ahout. t have kept close to tlie Dointa at issue, 1" lie kev. Mr. Gregg i:aid he would keep close to the^poinis al idsuc. The Rev. m. Gregg said he would keep dose to the question of apostacy ; but I ask you did be say one word about it for the last half hour. Let tlwt be recorded. He has been begging ike question. He says we are idolaters; but the question is — have we worshipped iddb 1 He says that (be Pope is Antichrist — and ber«, my friends, I beg of you to oiler rip your prayers to God ihAt Im may give you ears to hear and hearts to understand what I am al)out to state. I will prove ihat the Pope is not antichrist— and^ if the Rev. Mr. Gregg an- .•^wers my proofs;) seriatim, I shall give up the whole of (he con. troversy, and acknowledge that I have done nothing. My firat nroof is frohi the second chapter of St Paul's second epistle to the I'h^ssalonlans, and third verse — " Let no man deceive you by ar.y mehns, for unless there come a revolt first, and that noan of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.** — The adversary. Now, I will nsk him can "that man" be applied to a saecession - n^men *? If (he Popes were meant, the text should be these >Yieh — those sons of perdition. Ag^vn, it is said of antichrist, thai h6 shall cause an image of himself to be made and set up nnd wprs'hif ped, and that m^n shall be put to death if they do not worship u. Now, did ihe Rev. Mr. ^regg ever hear (tf any Pope cnnsmg hn image of himself to be made and set up; et imy ynan being put to death because he would not worship it 7 J^gaiii h is said in J^evelations, thirteenth chapter and eigh* teenth verse-T-^lhe number of the beast shall be six hundred an^ sixty .six — the number of a man— " A mRn," not the num. ber 6f men —here is tlie indefinite article distinctly, and direct- ly, find unequivocally pointing out to a man, ami net to men. Aghtn, in the ^th chapter <^ John, 43d verse, Chtist, in speak, ing to the Jews, says — "I am come in (be nnme of my fatlnr, ^tid you receive me not ; if another shall come in his own nftrtie him yon will receive.'* Now, I ask the Rev. Mr. Gregg have the Jews received the Pope 1 No ; therefore the Pope oUrinot IVe antichrist until yon show that the Jews receive him. Bbes the Rev. Mr. Gregg believe the scriptures ? Here are fhe Wotdfl of CInist himself — let him deny (hem if he can. Hear n^ain (he 13ih of Mark, 24th verse— "But in (hose day, atter that ti'ihnlntion, the snn shall lie darkened, and the moon shall not sfivp Im Ij^hf" Well now has ihe sun l>een doikeii. FOURTH DAY— FRIDAY. •» ed» or hai th« noon ceaied to give h«r light t Tlicy b«vt •IU« bten darkened by an eolipse ; but this ii a natural t vane, and Ibf reverend gentleman won*t My that it it a proof oT the eooiinf af Antichrict. Again, Daniel, 7th chapter and 25th varie— " And ha ihall tpeak words against the High One, and shall orush the saintf of the Most High ; and he shall think himself abla to ohange timai and laws, and tbe^r shall be delivered faHo hii hand untila timt, times, and half a time.*' Again, in the Apecalypsa, 18tb chapter and 5th verse— *' And there was given to him a mouth apaidiing great things, and blasphemies; and pover was giveo to hfm ta om* tmue forty and two months." This agrtet exactly with 'shod over xm for 1,M0 years. There is an eicposition of the prophet Daniel for you 1 The time has been distinctly pointed out in varioue parte of tfif Scrip* ture. In Daniel it is meottoaed " times, a tiroe^ aod half a tiwob" two years, a year, and half a year. In another place it i« ttetfd f be 1,260 days. In another place two and for^ moatlM^ all igr*^ ing to the period of three yearn and a half, by the old calcvktieii, not the Julian oalculatioa. This it tlie poriod giv«n to Antichiiit to reiffn, and afW that " bis days shall be shortened ;" pad after this the devil was to be loosed. Again, ApocaHypte, ] 1th chap. M verse. '* Aad I will give unto my two wUnessep^ and tbey ahall prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackr cloth." Follow me, now, my friends, and attend ivell to asy toada- sions. I shall read anoUier passi^ from the Apocalypse with re* gard to these two witnesses, who are to nrophesy in tlie dfiytof An- ricl^rist. " And when they shell have nnished their testimony the <)east that agcendeth out of the abyss shall make war upon them &;td shall overcome them, and kill them, and their bodies theU lie in the streets of the great city" (Jerusalem.) Now those two wit- nesses are Enoch and Elias. Have Enoch and Elias been kHIe^ and have their dead bodies lain in the streets of Jerusalem 1 If they have not. Antichrist has not yet come, and the Pope cannot be Antichrist. Again, we 6nd in the Apocalypse, ISth chap, ind 17th verse — ** And that no man might buy or sell but he that hath the mark or tiatne of the beast, or the number of hit name.** Now* I will ask the Rev. Mr, Gregg has it ever come to pass thi|t a man has ever ^ecn prevented to buy or sell, because «f the mark or nmn- her of the Pope. The mark of the Pope, and of thewhofe Chris- tian world, is the sign of the cross, and will the reverend geottenan tell me that the sign of the cross, the symbol of our redemptioii, is the niark of Antichrist 1 The Pope acknowledges himself to be the agent of Christ, yet the reverend gentleman calls him Antichrist; Oh, vvhatt an Antichrist we have got. I have here seventeen holy fathers acknowle4ging the Pope to be the head of the church — the vicegerent of Christ upon earth. But I won't trouble ybu with them I will give you some of the Protestant holy fathers. The mild Melanctlion, in his epistle to Leo, acknowledges 'him t* be the < i TOO THE msciTssroM. head of tbe church, and it wai only when Luther was exeommunU cated by the Pope that he denfed th ■ be was the head of the church. Will the Rev. Mr. Gregg set uny value on what the Great Bacon says. He says that In the opinion of the holy fathers the Pope was the head of the church. Such, too, was the opinion of the Protestant writer Leibnitz. What did the Calvinists of France aay, and what did Thorndike sav t But 1 perceive that my half- hour is ended, and 1 must have aone. The Rev. Mr. Grbgo then proceeded — 1 ask you, my friend*, has Mr. Maguire answered me ? O, I pray that the grace of God nay deliver nim from the human authority to which he endeavors to cling, and which he would fain substitute for the word of God. Mr. hngukt must not allow himself to be led away by human au- thoricv Mid fiilse reasoning. He must come to the simplicity of the child before he can receive the word in spirit and in truth. He told you in his last speech that I did not stick to the quektion of aposta- cv ; but I promise him that unless he be vt>ry hard to please PN five him enough on that subject. He calls upon me to answer is questions seriatim, with re^^ard to the Pope not being Antichrist. Now, I promise him that I will answer him. First, he savs that the '* that man" of sin pointed out in the second chopter of PauPs second epistle to the Thessalonians must be an indivioual. I refer to the original Greek, and I appeal to you who are scholars here, if Mr. Maguire has not mistranslated the passage. Mr. Maouirk — I read from the authorized version of your Br- Ucv Mr. Gregg — I shall quote from the original Greek. Tbe passage runs thus :— " Meli» humoi exapatese kala nudena fro. pw : hotiean me ellke apostatia proton, kai apoluphthe ho atUro. pot tet kaiMltitiai, ho whios tet apoleias,** Now, I say that"Ao cnthropo9 te$ Aomor/tos'* fairly translated is tbe man of sin, and not that man of sin. Mr. Maguire— Is there any difference between the man of sio and that man of sin ; and if there be, blame yo^r own Protestant translators, who translated the Bible by authority (cries of order, order.) Mf. Gregg— I donH care about that. I appeal to those who know it if my translation be not tbe right one — for, in Matthew, 16tb chapter and 18th verse, where he says, " Upon this rock I will build my church," the pronoun is used in addition to the article, to express ihi»i.«" kai tpi ianie te petra" I ask, does that satisfy you, Mr. Maguire I Mr. Maocire.— It don not. Mr. Gregg — Well, I cannot help you. I give you facts and arguments, and if you are not to be convinced that is not my fault. But I see by the countenances of many present that it is a clencber. He says the Pope cannot be Antichrist, because be calls himself the servant of the Most High ; but are we to believe him when he says sot — are we to believe the wolf, when he puts on the coat of the lamb, that be is mild and innocent ?~ am I to believe the Pope FOURTH DAY— FRIDAY. 101 that he it mild and innoceiit when I 6nd him bltiting the long •word, and sending war and desolation through the earth I—when I find him converting the Albiffenies, who were lambf, into wolvca, exterminating them rrom the face of the earth. It is no proof thai the Pope is not Antichrist, because he says he is the agent of Christ. Uev. Mr. Maguire says next that Antichrist must be a roan, an individual, because his number— si» hundred and sixty.six, ia the number of a man. But, my firiendi, I will give you a treat :— Apostacv is the name of a thing, apostate is the name of an indi- viaual— labour is the name of a thing, a labourer is the name ofaa individual^Roman is the name of a man, for Roman ht us subfti- tute Latinut — then the number of Latinui makes six hundred and sixty-six. The Pope is apan called rede reverendus, and the num- ber of that is 666. He is called Rgx sacerdoSf and the number of that is 666 — he is called doctu* dec^ior, and the number of that is 666 — he is called doctor papa deceptor papa^ and the ntmber of that is 666. He is called in the Greek, 1o mega iherion (the great beast,) and the number of that is 666. Various other titles he has, all of which make up in globot the number of 666. He says that the Pope cannot be antichrist, as Enoch and Elias have not come, and that they have not been slain in the streets of Jerusalem. Elias was to come at first, and in reading the text he did not quote it all or quote it fairly — he lefl out the middleof it— he said that the two witness- es were to be slain, and be dead in the streets of Jerusaieaa. Now Jerusalem is not mentioned in the text at all — it says the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt The Lord who was Elijah was put to death by the Romans, and Roman is the name by which the reverend gentleman and his party go. Is not the sway of the Pope as great as that foretold ^ antichrist 1 and I wum you against the delusions which Popery throws out to seduce mankind. You see the reverend gendeman with all his great powers labouring in support of those delusions. Yom see him labouring against the current of the stream of truth of the living God. It is deplorable to see it. You heard his silly argument that the Pope could not be antichrist, because he did not order an image of himself to be made and worshipped. I refer him to some of the texts of scripture he has quoted. St. John says, "I saw another beast like unto a hiul^ but was as a dragon.** There is the Popish church, the image or the beast, the likeness of the original Pagan Roman empire,^ He says his church is not guilty of apostacy from the truth, or of idola- try — ia not prayer to the virgin mary apostacy from the truth of Christianity 1 Can that church be the true chtuwh, which ascribea virtues to such rubbish as thisi (Here the reverend gentlemaa produced something like a woman's old gown, and hd that parents should al- low young boys to come here. T wish they would go out. I ap- pealto Mr. IVIaguire if the regulation is not a proper one. The suggestion has not originated with me ; I have seen it suggested in the " Morning Register;^' and I perfectly concur in it. Mr. Maouirb — My idea is, that as far as lam concerned, I don't aik any one to go out, for I don't intend to introduce any black- guardism whatever. Mr. Grkgo — If I bring forward blackguardism, it will be from Mr. Maguire's own books. Mr. Maouiri:— You may do as you think proper. A voice in the crowd — Don't be taking up Mr. Gregg's time. (Loud cries of '* turn him out." Mr. Greoo then proceeded— Well, I see these young boys won't leave that though they have no business here whatever. Mr. Gregg then gave an explanation o( mollis. Then you see, my friends, the man who called his brother by this bad name was deserving of dam- nation ; and here I maintain, notwithstf>.nding all Mr. Maguire may say to the contrary, that there can be no distinction in sin ; and it 18 the greatest error to imagine that any sin can be committed that is not highly displeasing. But Mr. Maeuire argues that some of his Tenial ains are not only not displeasing, but that they are some of them objects of reward from heaven. 1 now come to a por- tion of one of the books of Mr. Maguire's church, which I intend to read to the meeting, should Mr. Maguire decline to read it here. Mr. Maguire, will you read your own book t Mr. Maouirb — No ; you may read what you like. . Mr. Grkgo — Those are extracts from the work of Peter Dens — and I feel the greatest reluctance to bring them before the public ; but the cause of truth impels me onward. Here are some of the abominations of the confessional. [Here he read extracts, and commented on the manner of examination suggested for females in eoAfession.] Here are pretty questions to be put to females by men who are themseWes unmarried. Thus, my friends are your wives •nd daughters subjected to this horrible inquisition ; and don't sup- pose for a moment that in tlie abominable extracts I have read for jrou it is Dens that speaks— it is the Romish church, for they are all sanctioned by it. ! Here the reverend gentleman's half hour ended. . Mr. Maguire — Gentlemen, it is right that I should inform you that my reverend friend has travelled back in his last speech to sub- jects which have been most amply handled three days back, and fvhich we might have considered as decisively discussed. But it is because he has reinforcement of argument, for which he is indebted to tome friendly lucubrations, he thinks fit to return to them ; and be is at perfect liberty for all that I care, to do so. He returns to ^e " I even I" of the prophet Isaiah, and accuses me of a gross mis- take in quoting the passage of scripture. He said that the 144,000 were only fighting men. I answered that they were 0f the tribe of Senjamin, that they belonged to the true church of God in the old I I FIFTH DAY-SATURDAY. 107 !'t lave ; no matter whether they belonged to the kingdont of JiKk* or the kingdom of Israel, Tor both were of the Jewish church ; eh«f were > 44/XX) men of the tribe alone : how, then, I repeat, coiila the Jewish church have been invisible at their time ? But the Jew- ifth church was the type of the new church of Jesus Chriit» If the former was not invisible, neither could the latter be. So imich for your spiritual knowledge, reverend Sir. In your last &alf hour yet* terday you committed a gross error, and one unworthy of fair dn- cussion. In speaking of venial sin, you said that I wanted to taake it appear that God rewarded venial sin because he rewarded Bahab. I said no tuch thing, Mr. Gregg ; but I wanted to make it appmlr that Rahab did not lose the grace of God, because he rewardefl her although she committed venial sin. But according to you, Sir, €iod rewarded her for mortal sin ; because you hold that the sin committed was mortal. Hence it stands thus : — I maintain that venial sin does not kill the soul, which mortal sin does, as its name signifies. And you say that God rewards mortal and venial sin, while I maintain that he rewards neither. Let me now come to the parable of the unluM steward, and I say that if you explain that for me, I will explaiB the circum tance of Rahab for you. I again refer you to the EpiV tie of St. John, where it is said that there is a sin unto death, ami « sin which is not unto death ; and I say that this either proves the distinction between mortal and venial sin, or else it proves the doc- trines or prayers for the dead. St. John says that there is a sin unto death ; now if I understand that rightly, it signifies a tin ia whifh a man perseveres without repenting to death — and that th« sin whicti is nul jnto death is that in which a R^an does not die iaa* penitent. You (enow, Sir, it is unquestionably lawful to pray for^ man while living, no matter how great his sin may be. In thesMM way is it proper to pray for him who shows no signs of repentaaoe at dearh, that is in the case of sin unto dea'.h, if it be right to pn^ for a man while in the state of sin. Now, Sir, allow me to ask yoa how \ ou will get over the mid wives of Egypt 1 Why did God re- ward them, if they were guilty of mortal sin ? The King of Egypt issued an order commanding them to put to death aU the radb children of the Israelites as soon as they should be born. They did not, however, comply with his commands, and they told him that the women of Israel took care to be delivered before they sent for tiiem. Thus they told a lie to the king, but the scripture aaya that " because they feared God he built unto them dwellings. .But if they had committed a mortal sin — an act which placed them in « state of damnation — why should 'jad have rewarded them by build* ing dwellings for them ? My friends, Mr. Gregg has told you a great deal about the word *' Raca," a great deal also which was very edifying, and he expended h vast deal of learning in it. What « waste of learning that was ! I proved that he was wrong in his quo- tation about " the man of sin, 'and he, endeavoring to show that he was right, had recourse to the originurGreek,.and told you a great deal about the force of particles. What are the poor ignorant Pnu- testants to do who do not know (ireek as my reverend friend does -I If they cannot make an act of faitii without having recourse to the 108 ^/ THE DISCUSSION. «» Gretk original, I ask you what are they to do 1 The scripture mo. r diitiriotly points out three sortsof of sin, namely, that which is sub- ieot to Ibe judgment, that which is subject to tlie council, and, final- ly, the third, which is alone condemned to hell. The first is that •light feeling which may break out between brothers or friends — that difference which may exist between children, and which does aot destroy charity. If it were not venial, how should it be distin- goiihed from the highest outbreak which is designated in the scrip- tan by calling a brother " thou fool T In the first case, there is iM>t| at it were, any overt act of passion ; in the latter is denoted the highest pitch of anger. I quoted the Apostle Jamet, .vhere he says, •*In many things we all offend." Therefore the Apostles offended m many things. But will Mr. Gregg say that the Apostles were in rti* habit of committing mortal sin, and that they were very often in the state of damnation? If so, how shouid they be inspired? Every hour and moment of our lives we do commit those small of- fences to which St. James alludes: and are we every hour and moment of onr lives in a state of damnation ?^nd were the Apostles, accord- irtff to the words of St. James, constantly committing mortal sins ? What a beautiful specimen of pure Protestant doctrine, that those who may be called the second founders of Christianity— those to whom Jesus Christ with his own mouth gave the commission to es- tablish his church — should have been every moment of their lives in the state of damnation 1 But what need we wonder ; the Pro- testant church has no principles. My reverend friend says that it IS infiillfble, and again that it is fallible. What beautiful divinity is in that hesitation — that difficulty to decide whether she is fallible mr infallible 1 You see, my friends, tliat he does not wish to lay aside the superiority which he claims fur his church of being judge Ml matters of faith. His church is too fund of high tory principle, and he knows well that he dare not give that privilege up, with all Itis liberty af private judgment. What a church, and what a fine theology he has ! He says he does not understand the word infal- RUe, because he can't find it in the iScriptures. Now, 7 a^ him dtoet he find the word procession in the Scripture, or the word trini- •jr in the Scripture, or the word consubstantially in the Scripture ? And yet, all these doctrines, the names of which are not to be found iinr the Scripture, are matters of faith to his church. What a church ft is which teaches that the whole of Christendom was in a state of damnation for more than 800 years. Now his saying that his church is fallible and infallible reminds me of a man who would not drink whiskey in • public house nor outside a public house, but who weidd drink it on the threshold, if he takes it outside he is alraitf ef the church, and i*' he goes inside he is afraid oF me, so he prefers the Nttfe horn of, the dilemma. He tells yon very tr>ttmph* antiv that I contradict myself, and he quotes me against my own Bible. Was it not Dr. Heyland in his Cosmography whom I ? noted, and not any opinion of my own wliicli I brought forward ? ^Oted Di'. Heyland't Cosmography, and other Protestant coir.- menintort to show that, in their opinion, it was not Pagan Rome m'likfh was referred to in the Apocalypse. I quoted thcui to show FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. 109 thnt Constantinople was built on seven hili«, that on on« of (hem was the great mosque of St. S)phin, and the Tnikish le. raglio; ihiii it was the J^Tuva Bona, and was likely to be the Babylon of the prophesy as Christian Rome. You said, Revo- rend Sir, (hat you hold both public and private judgment to bo (he rule of fuiih 1 Now. 1 ask you is (he Holy Ghost the au. ihorof boihl And if they fdioiild come in collision ; if you should differ with each oiher, as you have often done, and must, in ihe nature of things, be liable to do, how can you bring (he Holy Ghost out of (he difficulty 1 Yon talk. Sir, with an infidel sneer of Rome having converted nationafrom Ptignnism. O, Sir, I ask you to look back to the stream of blood which floured from (he holy martyrs, who carried Chris. tiutiity into distant lauds, and fixed the standard of the crest tritunphant over the ruins of Paganism 1 Believe me (hat in- fidelity will triumph at this contust between Christianity and Christianity — for I don't deny (hat you have Christianity — I don't deny that you retain much of what you borrowed of the fuiih of Jesus Christ from us, still in common with us. I wUl not dwell at any length on what you have said of morose de- lectation, for it is not a subject vi^hich I would introduce before any audience ; but it appeared to me that you derived the vrord morcse from moralist whereas it comes from the word numr, a delay, (hat is, a dwelling on a sinful thought. But, my friendly according lo (he principle of my reverend opponent there is k^o sin in such delay. You may dwell as long as you like on a sin. ful thought, for there is nothing in Protestant morality to pre- vent you, and you will not be advised to the contrary. You may do what you please, provided it be not done openly and before the world. Now I say that if all that ever was written by Peter Dens on (he various distinctions of certain sins, and all that was ever written on (he same subject by other compi. lers of moral theology — and observe, that which was never in. tended for any but those who sit as judges in the tribunal of confession — that which was intended (o guide the priest in the direction of souls has been collected in a volume, and trans. lated into English, and I have known it to be received through the post by ladies in remote parts of the kiugdom— it has been brought within (he reach of every wife &nd of every daughter in (he Bri(i8h empire. I say, if all that were as infamous, and as disgusting, and as villainous, and as abominable, as my re- verend friend, with his false and corrupt English transldtien, could wish to make it, what is that to me 1 I differ with Pe- ter Dens in many things ; and what of (ha([ 1 He holds that the Pope is above the councils ; 1 say the contrary. He says that the Pope ex cathedra dac^ens is infallible. This he holds with the Italian divines while the iht»ologians of France, and <1! •'I '1! i I. ■' I ■■I! ■ • IM V THE DISCUSSION^ it 'yi and othrr eoiinlries, who, being on this side of Iiuly, are ci0e secret thoughts and acts which defile the soul before God, and which, to be forgiven, the ordinance of Christ requires 40 be oonfeeeed — if theyi were not instructed how to advise the pemtcni that he may escape those dangerous precipices 1 And VK^Mt-hae Peter Dens done but give such assistance to the mi. fMslers of religion as might guide ihem in that arduous and un. pleasant duty ? He did not intend it to be handed about among the people in their native tongue, and diveijted of the clonk viiiob a nead language and (he austerity of religion cast over it) but which those who think with my reverend friend have torn ofl^'that Ihey might place it in the hands of every girl aad of every innocent boy that speaks the English language. Ht'M not intend it to be made the subject of public discussion befoM euch an audience as that which is now before us. Now, mv friends, I will give you the fullest opportunity of seeing this queatioD in its-true light. I undertake to prove the sacred ovigpiia of ooufassion, first from the sacred sciiptures ; secondly, ipom the practice of the ancient church ; thirdly, from the wis. dom and beaoty, and mercy of such an institution, which ira- mediately stamp it with the character of its divine origin ; andj^urthly, fcom the admission of its utility and necessity, Made by the moat eminent Protestant divines. I shall first Iben^ifrow wfaetter the principle of confession be itself divine ; «itflytia .-awl*' good fruits will come from it. I must observe that Mr. Mm guire was mistaken in saying (hat I derived moroic from .worn. lis; I ssttid that it was 'derived from morfln, which is all iho N 112 THE DISCUSSION. same a« moror, as both have the same root. Then be says that Pioteitantism is without principle ; and yet he says that all we have of Christianity, we derive it from his church. Thus we derive some of our religion from him, and yet we have no principle. Did I not say that your church was pUre in tho be. ginninff, and that what it had of pure Christianity we have re. tainedl Why, my dear Sir, how can you fall into those mis. takes 1 are you not ashamed of your errors 1 Mr. Mnguire says, in speaicing of Constantinople, that he quoted from Thorn. dike, and others. Did I not say before that I do not care a straw about Thorndike and the whole of them 't I take my anthority from the laws of the land ; because I quote from the homilies of our church, and the homilies were established by the laws of the land. I said that the Duuay Bible points out Pagan Rome as the Babylon of the Apocalypse ; and it is very strange that he should follow Thorndike ana others, and aban. don the authority of his own Bible. Again, with respect to MocAt he says of the difierent sins pointed out in that passege only one is liable to hell fire ; yet I have shown most clearly thafUie first is liable to heli fire as much as murder ; that the second, being subject to the council, is equally bad ; and that the third, which ought to be considered as less than the two former ones, is subject to hell fire. Is there not common serite in that ? He says that the word procesmn is not to be found in the Bible. Now I rather think that I remember having seen in some passage the expression that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father ; but I shall make myself sure. Yes, here I have it, John, chap. 15, verse 36, says " But the comforter, which is the Holy Qhost, whom the Father will send in my name, &c." Here we have the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father. Again, he say3-> (he word trinity is not to be found in the Bible. I say, if it is not in the Bible, it is in the iltthanasian Creed, which accords with the Bible ; but I don't leec^ise the word infallible, because it is neither in the scrip, ture nor in the Athanasian Creed, though I grant you will find it m Johiieon^s Oi Ji if:til FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. US extracti from Mr. Maguire^i ipeeoli in GlMffOW, oontainlDg hit dial- lenge, beginning, •< Let one wthem come forward,*' Ae.) He laid that he would proTe every thing to the latisfactlon of honeit Jobtt JBuII. I Icnow that John Bull is kind-hearted, but it it not to Aro- tefttantitm that he ii Indebted for that quality^ Now, I come to Mr. Maguire*! answer to ray argumentr n Dens* Theology. H« mj» that the whole question depends on thiM— namely, wkeiher Chmt instituted confession. I sav it is not so. Here we have in theP^ testant Book of Common Prayer, in the vMtaticn of tbe lick, the following rubrick :— « Then shall the minister examine Whether h« repent him trulv of his sins, and be In charity with ail the wodd, &c. * * * Ilere shall the sick person be moved to rariie a ap»> cial confession of his sins, if *ie feefs his conscience Irouftlled wHH any weighty matter. After which confession the priest shall ab«^ him, if he humbly and heartily desire it, after this sort." Afkl hari follows the fbrm of absolution : — " Our Lord Jesns Christ, who hadi left power to his church to abstrfve all sinners, who truly repent and believe in him of his great mercy forfflTe thee thr omnoei i and» by his authority committed to me, 1 absolve the from all tbv wimt, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost— Amen.** Here then we have our church admitting loe totm of confession ; but does that prove that we should follow the system of Peter Dens, or that the corporation of bachelon should pry into the t secrets of our wives and dangliters ? Confess your sins, says Chrfaf; question the young women says Peter Dens; examine tiiem on sadi circumstances as must corrupt them, and poUote your own aeulfc There is no md«*e reason why vou should question fenmlea becaoie Christ instituted confession than there is that you should refiraiit from eating meat on Friday because John the BajMist was b^wad- ed. You know that the great object of the devil has alw^ been to torment men, and he torments the Catlurfic priests with a ven- geance. He first prevents them from raarryinff, and then he ex- posts them to the most inconceivable torture. Jtfr. Magnire tmjfB that they K-t not allowed to make their vows before the ace of 9^ and that they are then old enough to judge whether they uiotdd de so or not ; but I deny that that age is sufficient, or that a mtti eeuld> at any time, possess tuiHcient knowledge of himself to emtble Mill to come to such a resolution. Hiey invariaUy find that thejr frtttt wrong, and I appeal to every Catholic priest who heart ate, if lie has not felt that he was wrong in making the sacrifice that he haa done. I assert boldly that there could not be a more ineritorioua or more excellent &tt than for all the priests in Ireland to many id the nuns in Ireland (hisset, followed by Cheers from Mr. OrqMra party, and loud cheers from the Rev. mr. Nolan.) There coidane no greater demonstration of good sense, and I am eonvkieed thefe no circumstance in the life of the great Luther was mere noble than that of his having carried off the nun Catherine. My friends^ Uie character of that great man has been most vilely mistaken and ffiia* represented. There VN^as a height, and a breadth, and a depths aiid a vastness about him which exceeds anything I ever knew in any other ; he was greatly superior to his times, and I doubt very mucn ■^^M 114^ Y-TIIK DISCUSMOX. whether it be true that he would allow a man (o mnrry trn wivci together, llowevc, I don't care a utruw about I.tiihcr. Formeily, whon I canu! to know him better, I felt tito hight>«it udiniration for hinu Ai to hi» dtiiivin^ some of hU ductrinei i'roni the devil, you must be av«'arc that that i* only a calumny ; it was no more than a temptation, and you know that Jesus Cliriit iiiinsclf was tempted. NQW»let us proceed to »ee how our bachelor priests ore inotructcd jn. their semmaries — in what their infamous system of divinity con« Bists. [Here .Mr. Gregg read a great many of the translated ex- tracts from Dens' IVact on Matrimony, w'. 7re he treats in the chnp- ter, de usu mntrimonii on the sins incit'csntal to the married state.] Bemember that it is a Roman Cathoiic Doctor who speaks ; they are npt my words— blame me not. Oh ! what a foul and infamcus abomination ! You, bachelor priests, you talk of the •i you pry behind the consecrated curtains of the married bed ! O, my Koroan Catholic brethren, if you would but open your eyes — if you would but consider what I have laid before you, you would, every man of you, withdraw your wives and daughters irom such a avttem. [The reverend gentleman read some further extracts of the same nature.] Fie on it for an abomination ! What a nice discussion for bachelors ! Why, Sir, what do you know about those things 1 (Loud cheers from all parties.) Where should you get \our knowledge .1 1 know well that the Roman Catholic priests of Dublin will say that Mr. Maguire should, instead of having come to this discussion, have staid at home with his dogs, (hisses, followed by cheers). It ia a delusion — a most unaccountable delusion — if you do not feel that the whole of that which I have but commenced to read— that the whole system of Romish confession — the whole of the ecclesiastical education of your clergy, is most monstrous, pnost abominable, most infamous-* . The half hour terminated here. Kev. Mr. Maguire — Gentlemen, I beg leave to say that I would rather go out to the fields with my dogs to take rational exercise ^an to occupy my time with reading the lying, infamous, and igno- rant translation (I asaert it tojie such, and 1 will prove it so,) which |)e has quoted. (Here was some noise and contusion at the lower part of tne reporter's table.) Now, is it not a shame that you can- not behave yourselves, and act in a rational manner, during a ration- |[Ji discussion. See I do not get disorderly. ^. A voice — Nor I. Rev. Mr. Maguire —Why, then, make this noise. Are you not ashamed, and do you not remember that you are told to bear witii one another. I implore of you for the future to be quiet. Now, gentlemen, you will bear in mind that I did not bring about the abominable exhibition of this day, and that whatever injury is done to our common Christianity, and whatever scandal is given to the faithful, that I, who occasionally go out with my dogs to enjoy some rational exerqse, rather than read such passages, as ic has pleased m^ rev«rend friend to read, am not to be blamed. I tell you, my friends, notwithstanding the quotations which you have heard, that this is a glorious 'ay for the Roman Catholic religion, (hisses.) Give riFTH DAY— SATURDAY. IIS me none of your liiaiei. I mUde yoii hi«s yesterday, and I rcjoica nt it, tor it in the Mign of a better I'celing liaviiig taken (jumuhioo of you. The snake, uiicn it hiiscs, is iiurinlesa, and it in the snaka that bites in silence that is to be ilarcd. Still, I say, let tbere be no hissing. My party, if I have any party here, do not hiss liiiu. Why should you hiss mc 7 I beg uf'yuu not to continue iu but to exhibit towards us and towards one another a Christian feelinff— (cheers, and clapping of hands). Now, I will ask the Kev. vir, Gregg a question, and I beg oFyou, my Protestant friends, to bt"r it in mind. Will ho take the book ofGenesis, and read of the sin of Oniah, and sevcrni other passages in the holy scriptures which I can point out to him worse than any he has read, and which I would not take all the money in the world to read here to-d:iy ? Now, what good did all the quoting to*day do his cause ? I speak now of Peter Dens in the original, not of my friend's false transla« tion. I deny that Dens avows that a single one of those questions which you complain of is put in the confessional ; but I leave that with you and him ; you seem to agree very well with one another. Now, I stiy the [;reat question to bo decided is, did Jesus Christ es- tablish the neccs iity of confession ? I pledge myself to prove that he did. Now, if he did, ore you, when confessing, to select what sins to tell, or are you to tell all ? We sec what kind areyour youtb, who either never acknowledge their faults, or acknowledge onljr such as they like. If they wtre instiuctcd as ours are, you would not have them growing up in the comniitisjion of sins such as you have named. You would nut have your biahops hanged for bestial- ity, or tlying from the country to avoid the punishment of Sodomy. You know, and J know, that in all the transports leaving this coun- try, not a single crime of this nature is ever known ; and, on the contrary, it has been proved that none of those leaving Knglnnd, are ever witliout it. This has been distinctly proved before the com- mission of inquiry. I can bring the report of the Poor Law Com- missi :>ners to prove that in England, Protestant England, no less than 7'l-,000 bastard children are born every year, and that there is not one married woman out of 500 that has not hud a bastard child, I will read you this, and show you tlint we have it in evidence, and that evidence is the evidence of Protestant clergymen. I will shonr you, by the same testimony, that there are women who have nine children by nine different fathers, and that the more children a wo- man has, the sooner will she get a husband. We have it on simi- lar testimony that in Ireland, if a woman had an illgitimate child, she might as well leave the country, for she never could get a hus- band. There's a contrast to moral and Protestant England, with its 74,000 bastards annually. Hut ihis immorality is not confined to the lower orders, as I ihall prove. How many women of the first rank and fortune annually run away from their husbands, and not merely that, but exchange husbands with one another. Head Doc- tors' Commons Mnd it will tell you. Now name to mti hfteen wo- men of rank in this country, from the time of the reformation down to the present day, that hnve ever run away from their husbands, or exchange J widi each other, and 1 will give up the case 1 We know, ^ 'n I i^i &:\- no THE DISCUSSION. ( Sir, how tinir iir.en proceed. Sir, tl is well known tlint wt Ireep our youth fro'tp or'ne, and that the detcstablo htbiti you enumerate are not among uf but among you. 1 will produce Dr. Sherlock's tn- ble of litii, V iiich contains all the crimes you named, and worse, all of which he reeomnrands to be confessed, and he is a Protestant di- vine. I \Vill show you that your church approves of confession while it thfows away the best and most valuable part of it, in dit- countenantflng the telling to the clergy all your sins in private. It h known that your flocks ," i to -eceive the sacrament at yoor allara trith all their sins upon Ictt, ? myself have known themi after m night's debauch, to go fron) the Jcene of it to the church, and there #eceive thesaeramen wHftout a question being asked or an inquiry made as to tht it-ite in niifch they were, St. Paul says, "Let • ttian tr^ him^M'ir, ,ind then eat of that bread.** Now, I will comoto the point, and unless I transfer the blush of shame and conftision tvKiCh lie endeavored to oast upon us upon himself, never believe a ^orcl that I say. You will read in the scriptures where our blessed IBaviour had the paralytic let down to him by cords through the roof of the house, because there was too great a crowd around the door for him to enter, and when he saw him he had all the scribes and Pharisees around him, who were juct of the same character that ouir mtfderti scribes and pharisees are, and entertained exactly tha iartie opinions with regard to the forgiveness of sins. And when he aaw the piraiytic he said to him, " Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." But there were certain of the scribes sitting there and reasonins in their hearts, *< Why doth this man thus speak blasphemy ? Who can forgive sins but Ood only ?'* And Christ, knowmg their hearts, •aid, " Why reason ye these thinn in your hearts 1 Whether is h i>a8ier to say to the sick of the pali^, thy sins be foraiven thee, or arise, take up thy bed and walk I But that you may Know that tlie f on of Mian hath power over earth to forgive sins-lhe saitb to the tick of the palsy— I say unto thee — Arise, take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine own house ; and immediatelj^ he arose, took up his bed and went out before them all ;" and it is added that "the multitude gave glory unto Ood who had given such power onto iv:m.'* Mark, then,> hrre we have, irst, tlie scribes and pharisees ht; :''ng, like . '>se of modem days, that man has not the power of forj^ivlng sins. Next, we have Christ, the son of man, forgiving the sins of the sick man and performing a mn-acle to prove that he had such ptfWet. Now, is not that a proof of the doctrine of the forgive* ness of sins? I address myself m love and charity to my PrOtes* tattt brethren, and I beg of them to Mow me through my demon* itration. Our Saviour snid to the apostles, " Receive ye the Holy Giiost-^wliose sins you shall forgive iliey are forgiven," and before, ** As my Heavenly Father sent me so I send you." That is, be ^ttvethem all the power that his Heavenly Vsdier gave him, and he sent them to do all that he himself had been sent to do. He had the power of forgiving sins. Therefore that was among the ppwers that he gave them. Again, when after his resurrection, he ftret eleven of the apostles, St. Thoiitas being absent, he gave libem the same power. He also said to them, " Whose gins you shall for- FIFTH DAY-SATURDAY. 117 give tli«y are forgivtn, and irlioia lins you tliatl retain tliey ara re- tained;' and lot mo ask how could thev forgive tioa ur.c«i they knew them, and how could thoy know them unlet* they were con- fessed t Let me ask any physician how could ho know the disease of a patient unless that patient minutely detailed all its symptom^ anH all the circumstances accompanying it ? Our healih depends on the care we take of our body, and our solvation depends on the care we take of our souls. It is also my belief that my salvation de- pends on the care which I take of the souls of the flock that has been committed to my charge : and liow can I take that cnre if they do not tell me their sins ? Now I will prov j to you tlut sncramental confession was practised bv the apostles. You, of cuiirso, have read in the Acts of the Apjtitles of Ananias and Saphira. Their fate proves that if prou tell a tic before the tribunal of .confession, God will either visit you with ^ome immediate judgment, or what is worsoi he will treasure it up against you for the awful day of judg- ment. Ananias went to St. Peter to confess unto him, T^nd he told him a lie with regard to the money, the produce of the sale of his property, and St. Peter said that he lied to the Holy Ghost, and he was innsediately struck dead. Saphira came in jast as his body was borne out ; she knew not what iiad happened her husband— siie also lied to the Holy Ghost, and was also struck dead. Now, that confeuion must have been sacramental, otherwise they would not have lied to the Holy Ghost, but to a mere man. Ananias might have done what he liked with the money, for it was his property, and if he had told a lie about it to St. Peter, not in confession, God would not have visited him with so signal a judgment. There was no lav^ compelling him to give up his property, but when he denied hav- ing kept any of the money, ne lied to the Holy Ghost, because the confession was sacramental, and St. Peter was there as the repre- sentative of Christ. You will not deny that there is a great differ- ence between a lie to a mere roan, and to the Holy Ghost — there- fore, you must admit that it was a sacramental confession. You read also in the Acts, " That many came to the apostles, confessing their sins.*' And what were these sins 1 Among other things, the reading of improper books, and after their confession, they went and burned those books, to the value of 5,000»pieces of money. Now, I will prove — and, gentlemen, it will be worth your while to hear the demonstration, that there was auricular confession in the old law, and that the people were obliged to confess their sins. If then, now mark this— if then there were confession in the old law, it follows that there should be confeKsion in the new, for the old law was but a type and figure of the new, which was <* founded on far better promises." Now, you will find it laid down in the old tes- tament, that God said to Moses, " Say to the children of Israel, that if any one shall commit any of all the sins"— (now, mind that ex- pression) — " that happen, between man and man, he shall make con- fession thereof," and then he provides for the sins of theft, if con- fessed, and says, " And he shall make restitution thereof, and the onc'fifth part over.*' There, now, is confession, restitution, and sa- tisfaction ip the Qld IttWr-Alid^hea cecoUect the expression <* any of "1? ,. t lis THE DISCUSSION. all the ains/ Tliat is to say, that any sin, no mntt/M'.wIial it h^ must be confessed. Now, I will give you another text — St. James •ays, " Confess your sins, one man to another" — that is, they were to confess their siiiS to man, but the men to whom tliey were to confess were the ambassadors of God. Now I ask any man of com- mon reason to make sense of these words, " Wi)ose sins you forgive they are forgiven," and '* Whatsoever sins you shall Icoso on earth, they are loosed in heaven — and whatsoever sin^ you shall bind on earth, they are bound in heaven."' Now, how can it be hnown what 8in» are to be loosed, or what are to be bound, unless tliey are told 1 T put that to you. Answer ii. Suppose, again, one were to go to confession to a minister of tiie church of England, and sup- pose he were to confess, for example, some of the ains which lie enumerated, would it not be necessary for the clergyman to find out whether that was his first offence, a falling-off to which all are lia- ble, or whether he was an habitual dinner. If it were his first of- fence there would be good reason to suppose that he was worthy ; but if he had committed it one, two, three, four, five times — if he were an habitual simer, — give me leave to ask am I to throw pearls to swine?— am I to absolve him, and suffer him to receive the di- vine sacrament? Have 1 not evidence in the one case that the pe- nitent has fallen, through the common weakness of humanity, and that he will btt likely to avoid sin for the future. Have I not evi- dence in the other tliat the man is swallowed up in depravity.^ and am I to treat them boili in the same manner 1 But 1 would treat them in Ih^ same way if I did not know particulars, Would you not consider there was a difference between the young nmn who would rob but I/, and hiui »vho would rob his master, say, 21. a month regularly ? You would. 13ut then your doctrine says, " Go on;vrob on regularly; persevcTe; you do it with impunity.** Now, he talked of our advertising the fact of restitution. We do it, not for the sake of publishing it to the world, but to convince the per- son who makes it that we restored it, and the man to whom it is re- stored that we have given all we got. And is not that a legitimate reason 1 Now, to rome again to the point. Will he name a single person from the second century down to the present, except when the locusts came %pon the euth, that ever denied the validity or propriety of confession ? VV'ill he name a single individual, until the bottomless pit was let loose," until Luther aud Calvin's time, that ever raised his voice against it except heretics V — no, I do not even except them, for they admitted it. Now, •' let the galled jade wince." l will now refer you to some of the ablest of your own di- vines. I refer you to Montague's '* Guide," and his " Appeal,'' page 312. (lie read the passages.) There it is for you. Priests have power not only to pronounce the words of absolution, but to give remissions. What do you say to that'/ I refer you now to Bishop Andrews' sermon to the English court. (He read a passage directly in favour of auricular confession.) I will now read Doctor Dowd*s work — *' Innovation unjustly charged on Papists." (He reed several passages.) And now for the celebrated Luther, who never said a word against confession till he had five conferences wiiU FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. ll» t^«. devil, which he has preserved, and which he got tran Uated intli English. Here it is. The hoif-hour ended here. «k illev. Mr. GRKoa—Gentlemen, I will tell you that among n»f istasons for coming here in my canonicals, the chief one v\ as, that ypamight see that I considered myself engaged in a holy work \n revealing to the world the abominations of the church of Uomc, and submitting it to your opinion whether such an examination as I have in part read, be a proper and suitable exercise of Christian piety and priestly rights, and I trust that God will bless my endeavours, apd iQake thera.be productive of good. I shall now go oyer hisj»»-gn>r ments. As for his reason for advertising restitution — is it noi very wonderful that in all cases a receipt cannot be given and received \ I tell you that the true reason for thus advertising the cases of res- titution is, in order to induce the people to believe that it is not rer quired or practised in any other church. But I say that it is both required and practised in our church, and that 1 have known many instances of it. My reverend friend has been fighting with shadows^ The propriety and legality of confession I admit, but from hs pro* priety and legality it by no means follows that it is cither legal ttt Jiroper for married or unmarried females to be examined by bachen ors on subjects about which they know nothing. Is there nnt ^ great difference between the legality of confession and the legality of bachelors pumping young women for their secrets. '1 his very custom, I tell you, is a striking proof of the apostacy of Rome, of which, by-the«bye, my reverend friend has taken care to say noth- ing. In quoting the text, « As my father sent me even so { scnU you,** he forgot to give what immediately follows, which would phovr that the mission had nothing to do with confession. He speaks of the comparative morality of the people of England and Irdand. Ho speaks uiiguardedly, as if he docs not see with a thinking eye. Now I was living in England, I went over there greatly prtjudkcd against the country on account of the calumnies which I hpfird licap- ed upon it here, but I do say that there is no country in the v^orld that, in point of true Christianity and morality affords so eminently high, and glorious an example of, the religiqji which we teach. Again, I appeal to your common sense. The reverend gentleman says that there are a great number of women in England »vho have children before marriage. I have observed that 99 out of 100 of these women invariably get married to the fathers of their children, and that ihey make chaste and prudent wive?. As for my own country-women, even if I could, I would say nothing against them. But I believe Ireland to be an exception among the nations that profess the Roman Catholic religion. I say that that rpligioi! inr creases immorality and impurity, and maintains them in nil tl^e coun- tries where it exists. He tells me of our bishops. We havn had bad bishops. They were banished from among us, hut evfn if they were not, how can he bring them forward as examples of the nature of our religion. Why I will show him that it is his religion rliat firoduees ai^d en^oucages such (.'rimes. I will bring for ward n lonj.^ lit of English bishops and abbots before the Kefbrmation, who were :i- ' .: ,11 iiUM. 190 THE DISCUSSION. paDMked for them. Now lie has brought tneto England, I will bring him to Italjy Spafn^ New Orleans. I myself met a traveller who bad been in the last place, and he told me that he was at a baH there, at which there were 2000 females, not a single one of whonj was a modest woman. I can shov from Italian authors what the iftate of morals is tliere. Not a single mamed lady, even though sfte does confess to the bachelors, but must have her cara sposa, Now it is principles I want. He talks of practises. I told him his unicating inwardly with me, and I have received •* a peace which the world cannot give." (He here went into a train of observations, and cited some passa.^es from Bailey's Theol- ogy, \«hich it would be impossible to report. He also quoted from St. Francis De Sales.)- Now mark (lie continued) he has not tCMtched a single one of my arguments. He has not denied anything I said. You cannot, ray friends, dose your eyes to factjs. Campare Protestant America, descended from England, with Spanish Ame- rica. See the one celebrated for morality, and learnings and liber- fry ; sec the other in a state of anarchy and barbarism, drinking of the phial of the wrath of God. See Ireland, its wretchedness, its poverty, its disunion. Look at Spain, lately 'Jie scat of despotism, now the theatre of a wasting civil war. Look at Portugal. Con- trast them with the nations that profess the Protestant religion. Another coasequence of the Romish religion i* that it encourages filth and dirtiness. Some of their saints were noted for being co- vered with vermin and living in dirt. 1 can produce the life of one wboee most ren>arkable distinction was his filthtness and the num* bcr of vennta that covered him. I call upon you, gentlemen, to ac- knowledge that the Roman Catholic religion is apostate, that It does Kot teacn the way to heaven, and to jidgc between ns. Let me I i ^ O^AJ > V • ^ 4 A FIFTH DAY—SATUHDAY. ISl now show the slavery to which a married woman U reduced by the system of comfession. Here I have the *' Introduction tn « Devout Life," which has gone through an immeiMe number of edkioos, the 17th having been published in 1B03, and the 24th in 1830^ mth five or six others. Therefore it must have been in a great maay hands. I have also the " Mauh'ne Manual"' ^He read a passage fiwai i^ and proceeded to make observations, which could not belaid before the pubh'c.) He then gave a picture of the happiness of the Pro- testant clergy with their w*ves and children, contrasting their con- dition with that of the priests, who are forbidden to keep mnch the company of women. ; - t.M: .w:%:<*i: . »i:r*'iE?>;^ The half-hour having expired. Rev. Mr. Maguire then proceeded — Mr. Gregg has spoken to you of the immorality of Catholics and of Catholic countries^ and be lias denied that persons should devote themselves to celibacy ; but he seems not to know that in the Bible it is set forth that certain privileges were granted to those men and women who consecrated their virginity to God. He talks of unmarried priests keeping com- pany with women, and of the sins and temptations to which thej arc thereby subject. We do keep company with females ; we keep company v< ith them in public, but not in private, because our vows forbid us But are we the more subject to temptation t We be- lieve in the promise made by Christ to his church, anu by faith vve preserve our vows. Dut you, doctor don't believe in any such thing. It was the dilficulty with bad men of keeping these vows that brought forth tlic whole spawn of locusts, which have been cast out, but are perpetually assailing tlie church of Christ. You say you have the spirit of God with you ; but I fear it is the spirit of die cloven foot, and not the spirit of the cloven tongues. We believe that our chiu-ch has the spirit of the Holy Ghost with her; thatslie is the church of Jesus. If yours be the church of Jesus, where was the spirit for SCO years when that church was asleep, or when she was invisible, as you say. She was asleep ; she was in a lethargy^ as you. Sir, are in a spiritual lethargy, from which no power of ar- gumeni or of reasoning can awaken you. I ask you again. Sir, where ^vas the spirit wluch you boast of for 800 years while your chareh was asleep ? You cannot answer me that ; the lethargy is overyoo. You are asleep, and I pray that the spirit of God may raise yon up from that lethargy, and that you may yet come to understand the truth, You spoke of Saint Sales. Now you don't knaw any'thii^ about saints. It was the first time we heard of a Saint Sales. You meant St. Francis de Sales. Now, if you prove to me that you ever iiad sucii a man in your church, you will be doing some- thing ; but no, you will prove nothing, for I never could yet bind to a principle. You pretended to prove the apostacy of the Catlio- lic church, but you proved nothing ; you did no more than make assertions. I replied to tliose as^iertions about apostacy, and appecl to the assemblofie if I did not reply successfully; for if I have railed in that I have failed in every thing. You t^'" '\ of the parable of a tillliy house, hut you dropped t' c metapho, .. u found you were caught in your own meshes, and you stopped shorten that point. :';l III ir i:\ * I I Ijtt THE DISCUSSION. ^ Ko, no; 70U Tvould not search it, and sweep it, and pry into every ftthjpcoriier, «nd clt'ttn it out { but you would sweep 'it in'globo. Yoo stty to thr houseniaid--don't mind searching the rat hbleti, the corners^ and crevices ; give it a hasty brushing out, and it will do very welK Why, Sir, your own friends are pitying you while they 5ribtend to applaud you. You say that you have Jesus with you. 'fae -Arianst foolfi, Baptists, Old Lights, and all the new lights of tiyrworld have aaid so, but did ever any one believe them. But yUtothat comparison, although I must repeat again that lam sor* Syou have forced me to it. 'J he witnesses I shall bring to my aid ail not be little travellers or paid liars, who write books for pay« nieot to degrade Catholic countries. I appeal to your own clergy, 4ll4 not even to their bare word, but to their oaths. All the testi- ID^nx Ishall give you shall be on oath ; nothing from your little Te« nialiialrs. Heret then, is the testimony of a clergyman of your own cVwchf who was examined on a commission of inquiry into the causes of bastardy in England. It is to be found in Messrs. Piiking* ton's teportSi The Rev. Mr. Creswell stated that in sixty*two cases of bastarily which came to his knowledge in one parish, he found that three sisters were all with child by one man, a married man« tli^hey applied for parochial relief, and they all got one shilling and piXpcnce per week each. Two of the sisters were with child again bythc itame mant Again, in the case of a woman named Mnry wJ^itek having eight bastards by six di£Fereut men. Hy this report (page 94>n it appears that in one year in England 74,000 cases of bnaHardy came before the parish authorities. A case is recorded w^ieiv a man named John Curland was about to be married to young woman, but when the marriage was about to be celebrated, he foun4_she was with child by another man, and it appeared that his afiectjOD for her was so great, tlujt he was considerably nffectt?d by thii» circumstance. However, at the end of two years, he married her, and in applying to the parish for the loan of a paltry bum of money, he offered to give as security the allowance that was made for the'bastard child of his wife, tiuis making a traffic of his wife's disgrace, and of his oWn heart lesiness and degradation. Don't you know reverend Sir, that Protestant gentlemen handicap for their -wives, and that dukes, marquiseit, and lords exchange wives, and J ret there are no instructions given to them in the tribunal of con- iestion ; and that countesses and duchese6, and others of high de- grae« Ifiav« their husbands, and live in open adultery with others^ FIFTH DAY-SATURDAY, though Uiey nie not instmcled at the tribunanlof mfi lint, Sir, I will lerid a few more passages for ybii', lii^dfrOr tosiiiinf. authority — a ProtesJanf. clergyinan oh Hi'q pathh-^dtlil Rev. T. D. Biiketf, tcctor of Norfolk, He says that jirQiiniuiOllv oiiH intercuiiisc aiuoiig the sexes tnkjs place from an 6(iirTy aM* Here, Sir, is another Protestant auihoiiiy for you ; the Rev. Jiw th if. when your little bijdgai aboni Peter Dens i? en»piy, your whole stock in trade is \^(iw. But before I proceed to St. Paul, 1 shall read for you' some pas. sages froni Lnihor ; thjyare to be found in tomt^th C|f Luther^ Wv)' Ics, Hero I he reverend gentleman read an account orLulherV. lenipcrament, as described by himself as such, (hat b^ fpuna., hinjself unable to confroid it In any respect. He then read a pns?agc fron Melancth:>n, who said that he trembled when hd ih )iighi of linj pas.-iion of Luther. He also read paggages frort' Eiasmng, Calvin, and cther^!, contemporary with Luther, iy|i(i ail coincided i.i ■I -.) : - i'j .x.»» \. * V . ,.,( .;..'. 4- ■isr^ ■-■''? ■^^. f- * '* '' -V. -■,;\ ;-, ■ -',' ■^'■.'1 .-i*^ ' 'Ji^Vi' ' r-' ■ * ','-■- ,.-5t 7ir^.r ^ ^ ■ .' " * '■:^*;-,.#T :. ^...■4-./ :'': I/' '.|,vi4 .'. ; ^iC-i^^t- ^ 'j^-> .1 :..^- yr:.! ^•■''' - ;l>. m imwj'Tti:---fs.a wnvi ilh ♦> ti ..Vin< ?• ■fit ;»:;/-vJ-s^* /< '> i ,<.» -j4 •i*i!U« -.f. -■.•■".f '/'■•? v> t-'t'»W-'''>'' '-"- 'i^lr'^*^* ;.' ■) k^?', )->9.';i5u«.,v»i' n;,; n .n .;1 : •>:■ •■>•'• • : V *_ > " .•• > ♦, » ' -h}. ii; aXii ['■j^i'ris:"* vft'' 5ii 1 ,i>:f\jii - .' i " ."J ■ }f> '■' '•" ^*f%^.^'ni.: ■ 'm.\ .r .ri:". - ■■ ■■ " •(. THE DISCUSSION, " ;'■ BITWBKH THE REV. MESSRS. MAGUIRE AND GnEOG. Sixth Day — Mond.»v — Junb 5th. i.--.' u v>».:^.-'^' Al the iisunl hour (he disputnnts were nl (heir post. Mr. Grkgq ro8o and called on Mr. Mnguire to proceed with the diftciissiion, and inquired of him if he would consent to pio. tract it until ihrecf 1 Mr. Maguikt.— ' I meet the proposal with a distinct negative. Mr. Grego — Then let it be understood who refuses. Mr. Maguirg (hen proceeded. He said he hoped that his reverend friend was renovated by the intervention of (he Lord's Da}', and that he had come to the discussion with (hose feet, ings which ought to belong to a Christian minister. After some prefatory remarks, Mr. Maguire thus proceeded. I am now come to the business of the day, and I tell my reverend friend that I have no objection to prolong the discussion to any period he may think proper, or at least not to give it up till there is nothing in the shape of argument to be brought for. ward. I will continue it while there is any fresh proof to ad. duce ; but I must implore of him to deal more in proofs and in arguments, and to lay aside idle assertions and declamation. Had he done so from the commencement, this discussion would have been ended long before this. I come again to his assertion, for he has given no argument upon the subject, that the church of England and Ireland is the Catholic church. Mr. Qrcog — With its branches in the East Indies and other places. Mr. MAfiiviRB— So I understand you in that sense, and will give you the full benefit of your assertion ; and I pledge my- self not to make assertsons, but to stick to arguments, and the assembly will give me credit when I say that what, ever I have pledged myself to I have fulfilled. The reverend gentleman gives as one of the signs by which his true Catho- lic church, with its branches, shall be known, that it repudiates vows and celibacy. I quoted scripture for him on Saturday — I quoted St. Paul and other of the apostles, to show that such was recommended in the church of God from the very time a, and make vows of chastity and poverty t'jr his sake, and most assuredly will the eternal God fulfil all his promises. Again, in the first epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, chap. 7, the apos- tle says—" Now, concerning the things whereof you wrote unto me, it is good for a man not to touch a woman— but, nevertheless, to avaid fornication, let every man have hit own wife, and every woman her own husband, but I would that every one were even as myself-^but every one hath his proper gifl of God, one after this mlintler, and another after that. I say to the unmarried, and the widows, it is good for them if they abide even as !.*' Again, in the 25th and SSd verses, the apostle says — '* Now, concerning virgin?, I have no commandment of the Lord, yet I give my judgment as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord, but he that is married careth for the things of this world, and how he may please his wife." Again, my friends, the apostle says of widows — ** The wife is bound by the law as long as the husband liveth ; but if her husband be dead nhe may marry whom she will, only in the Lord. But she is happier if she so abide, afler my judg- ment, and I think I have the spirit of the Lord ; and younger wi- dows are to be avoided.'* Here, my friends, are niy*Scripture nu- thoritiea in support of vows and celibacy. But have 1 done with them 1 No. But it is unnccessusy that I should go further. I "^T^VT 1 SIXTH DAV-.MONl)\Y. Ul mij^ht tft!!l quote 5't. Paul, ami othcn of the apostiM, until I would vyeury you out, and you dcclur. d thai I hud carried my proofs too far. Again »'..> npostlu iiuys, i iiai honor Bhall be given to those wlip preserve their iirit faith — and f lac nineteen of the liolv ffthera to ihow that by this first faith was m< ant the state of widowhoo^. 1 ref(>- the reverend gentleman to tiie Council of Carthage, whieb» lui^'wTousIy enough, he calls a Protestant council, becauM th« church was then pure and Protestant. Well, then, he cannot quar- rel with what he calls one of his own councils. That was the coun- cil at which St. Augustine was present, and in that council, in tha lOtth canon, he will find that that was the interprctutiun put upon first fuith. What do you say to that Mr. <" ei^g ? Mark me >niB» I expect to be followed distinctly n«>^ : ' t, :■ .»B^ i J!m'1 in FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. r IE I ask you, dispute such authority 1 It is from our church that rou hare every thing- which you have that is worth possess. ng, and I believe that you are coming back to us by degrees. I hold in my hand a book printed in Oxford, in which are the hymns of our breviary that was lately printed in Parie. I have never denied Revelations. You tallced of the stream of truth, bu'- 1 ask you how could there be stream, when, according to yourowij account, the fountain was run diy ; the church was invisible 1 But the fact is. Mi. Gregg, you are run dry, com. pletely run dry, and I believe there is not a man in this us. fiemblythat does not see it, (cheers). The Rev. Mr. Maguire fiaid» I beg of you, my friends, for God's sake, not to give me your cheers. If I get olT well with God, it is all I want, and I i}eg of you to elevate your hearts to him, and to pray that he •may give your hearts to understand the truth. I don't want your applause* If I make truth triumphant, and that good re. suits may follow, give the glory to God ; pray to God to assist ydUj for if we survive this discuHon it is a moral miracle. The reverend gentleman talks of (ne puro gold and of the dross of the church* Now, I tell him there can be no dross in tne church* There may be individual dross ; but the church with which Christ promised to remain, is still pure gold. He .will find no pure gold in his church unless he robs it from ^mii^e. Where do the ministers of his church get their ordi»a jtion— where do they come from — if they do not scale the wall ^Bn4 come down through the roof like robbers 1 He said that .hi? church was invisible, and then that she was visible. The last assertion gave the lie to the first — for she was invisible— the* is, she had not existence at all. I ask, can the chtirch of God be invisible to man 1 and his church was invisible for 80Q years— where was she 1 Do you think that thc.t which was to be the largest body of believers that ever existed in the world, was to be for 800 years invisible 1 And I ask you was not the Roman Catholic church the largest body of believers in ihe world, and was she not tbrough all ages visible] And this ^|]aal|:of visibility was acknowledged by Luther himself, who .said he called to witness that it was by accident, and not by de. sign, that he separated from that which was the only visible church in the world. Here are Luther's own vords again— ** Primo solus eram, et certe ad Iractandas has res indoctissi. , mua et ineptissimus." He spoke of the old and the new dis. pec /aiion, and of the liberty by which Christ made us free, Yes, Christ made us free, not to attack one another, or to call his church that of Antichrist. But though we are free, and not bound by the legal rights of the Jews, still in many things wo are bound by the old dispensation. We are bound to keep ^ihe ten commandments, though Luther said they were a hum. n*'' THE DISCUSSION. 139 bug, and that we were not bound by them. Will you ^ay so, Doctor Gregg i You are the disciple of Luther, and do you agree jyith him there ? I think I might retort, and say that I smell an Athe- ist, but i will nut do any such thing ; I shall not deal in hard names* I showed you that it was lawfnl to make a vow in the old law, and that vows were approved of — nay, commanded in the new law. I brought such a host of Scripture authority to my aid, that I may fairly ask you, did I not prostrate you in your arguments against vows. I showed you that it was good for u man to auit parents, friends, and home, and dedicate himself to God-~ana I shall now give you more Scripture authority on that point. The younj; man who was rich, came to our Saviour, and asked w^hat should he do to be saved 1 He told liim to keep the commandments. This I have done, said he, from my youth — well, saith our Saviour, « Gtf sell whatever thou hast, and give it to the poor, and follow mi.'' How many in our church have done so — have given up riches, and rank, and honor, and dedicated themselves to poverty and to God. I would be glad you could show me any in your chureh that have done so. I would be glad that you would instruct your bishops to do so, and also to give some of their wealth to the poor cnrates of the establishment, who are going about among the few followers that they have, and striving to make their church in some way res- pectable. I quoted Eusebius to show that the authenticity of seve- ral books of Scripture were doubted by the church — and this up- sets your whole niie of faith founded upon your articles. You ac- knowledge Eusebius as authority — that he existed when the church was pure. There are not four pages of his works — of his theologi- cal works, that do nut mention miracles. The (ire refused to bum St. Polycarp, and other things equally miraculous are full;* authen- ticated — but show me where there ever was a miracle performed in your church, and you will have done something. God has left m certain commandments which it would be impossible to observe in a state of nature I admit ; but if Mr. Gregg says that with the grace of God we could not do so, I will take him up on that point when this discussion is over. He says he has the spirit ; but hove are we to know who has the spirit or who has not 1 It is God alone who knows. He says that his church has the marks which accord with the true church of Christ ; hut has she the marks whiv^h ac- cord with our glorious church? He makes a comparison. He says if I were to speak in such a way as to olfewd every one in this assembly, and that they all went out, still, though the assembly might be invisible, it did not cease to exist. Now, if he can name the one or two to which his church was reduced, or show one man, woman, or child that knew anything before the days of Lu- ther, he will have done something. He quoted texts from St. Paul to show that under the new law we are 'free. I never denied it. Jesus Christ made us free from the devil, and from the crimes of the Jc^ws. He attacked the church of Christ as being that of An- tichrist because Rome was built on teven hills. Now, London is built on seven hills — Dublin may be said to be built on seven hills — and other great cities of the world are also built on seven hills. He 4 u.:M\ IM FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. . next entertained you with a sclioolboy's trick ofmaking'"^ the notn'^ ber 666 from the Greek numerical letters contained in a variety of names. Now there is Mahomet, and hundreds of names from which you can make up t1u> nitmher 666. But the thing is so puerile that it should be noticed oniv to belauglied at. W'lien he writes a book agttinst Pnstorini, let hini give abetter ex;>0';ition of tlic HoveJa- tiona timii ho did. Dut synonimously 8peakiniew doctrines that were introduced into our religion. Now, I say that that is a plain proof that we have not apostatized, that the apostacy is not with us but with them, and I will give you scripture for it. You will read in Revelations, <* There shall be false teachers among the people, who will priviiy bring in false doctrines.'' Now, our doctrines were not brought in privily, or he would be unable to give them date ; but the doctrines of the Romish church were, hence the time of their introduction cannot be pointed out. There she possesses the privacy that was foretold as a proof of the falsehood of her doctrines. He says that he defies me to point out a single church in the world that ever held the Thirty-nine Articles. I say that there never was a Christian church that aid not hold them in principle. Oh, but it appears that the number is every thing — at least so says my reverend friend. I say that it is not their being 39 in number that is essential, but it is the principle that it is so ; and I tell you, my friends, that the principles of them are to be found in scripture. But he says that I ought not to receive the book of Revelations, because they were objected to by Dionysius. Was Dionysius the whole church ? I have nothing to do with Dionysius. Let him show that the whole Christian world, or at least the entire true church, either denied or doubted the Revelations at any time. He might as well tell me that I should reject the gospel of St. Luke, because in the 19th century it has pleased Mr. Belcher to doubt the first chapter of it. Show me if you can. Sir, that any single one of the councils which we ncknow> ledge ever doubted it. If you do, you may draw your conclusions. You say you hold the Apocalypse because your church holds it, and you ask me why I hold it ; I say I hold it because my church holds i% and my reason is a good one, for your church is apostate, and teaches not truth, and ha3 no authority. I have proved that she is apostate ; and, gentlemen, let me ask you has he tak&n up a single one of my arguments on that point ] I have proved it from Daniel, 2d chapter and 7th verse ; from the book of Revelations, and fronii the epistle of St. Peter. He has not even attempted a refutation of one of these text?, and the coj. elusions which I drew fromthem. Again, he asks me where do I get my mission ?— ..where do I come from ? Well, I do say that I am astonished that he should ask such a question, when he knows as well as I do that all our bishops who were in error renounced those errors, came out of the church of I ■)} ' '''*f k'.;p ]i2 FIFTH DAY— SATUIIDAY. Rom«, and returned to the primitive church. I aay again I am as. tonifhed at you, Sir, for our church is no separation. You might at well lay that a man who was a drunkard and gave up drunken- nen became a different man altogether. You say we admit your ordination. I say we admit it in part, and only in part. Wo would M toon let the devil himself into our pulpit as a llomish priest who had not renounced his abominations. I say that your ordination is a corrupt ordination ; it is partly corrupt, and partly pure and valid (a laugh.) You hnve derived it fVom the authority which Christ gave to his apostles, but you have sold yourselves to the Devil, (hisses.) Your ordination is made invalid by the corruption which has crept into your churcli, and hence it is we never allow a priest to preach in our pulpits till he has renounced these corruptions ; but when once he has done so wc receive him with open arms, and we rejoice at ihe nobleness and purity of his conduct. He calls upon me to give a single text to show that his church is corrupt, just as if 5 have not already given one hundred. I say that we are not cor- rupt. Our church has not been defiled, but yours has ; and I re<< fer you, since you demand a text, to the 17th chapter of Revela- tioM, where you will read of the great whore riding on the empires and driving them on. There you have the Popish priesthood riding on the people of the earth. Thr *-e you have the very language with which the power of the priests and the infatuated state of the people would be best described. There it is. The great whore sitting upon the beast, and drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus ! Then he tells us that his church is of amazing extent. Why that is another proof of its apos- tacy for it is said in the 16th verse of the 13th chapter of the Apo- calypse—" And he caused all, *^oth small and great, rich and poor, free and bound, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads.*' Thus the very extent of the church to which he be- longs is a strange proof of its apostacy. Again, he speaks of the names which describe his church, ai i:l make up the number 666. Why if I have not given him enoug.) 1 will double them. But I defy him to give me a single name belonging to my church which will constitute the same number. They are innumerable, however, in Popery. Vicarius jUii Dei in terra, the vicar of the Son of God upon earth, makes 666. Vicarius Generalis Dei in terra, the vicar- general of God upon earth, n akes up 666. Divinis infallibilis, the divine infallible, constitutes 666. Latinus lingua sede veste, Latin In languag«<, capital and dress, makes 666 ; and a hundred others of the titles which are given to the Pope and the Catholic church. I say, Sir, tremble for your connection with an apostate church. You tell me that Luther got his doctrine from the devil. Now, I do not stand vtp for Luther. He was in some respects a paltry characteir, though in general he was a noble-minded man. But even admit- ting the man to have had his faults, it is not fair, I say, to judge him by them. What great building would you judge by its defects ? What man should be judged by his failmgs 1 You tell me. Sir, that Melanctbon relates of Luther that he used to have ever so many devils about him. I have not the sliglitest doubt cf it. I FIFTH DAY^SATUIIDAY. H^ »m tare that no mortal was ever so beset by the devil, because he knew that that noble-minded man was about to overturn the ibun« dation of his dominions. Luther was remarkable tor a certain spct cies of appetite. He says himself that he was torn asunder by that particular desire. Hut the question is not, whether he wai beset with devils, or whether he was torn nsundcr by desire, but whether be surrendered or subdued them, and nee what Melanch- thon says immediately after. (He read o quotation which was to to the effect that thouju^h Luther was ardent and passionate, yet it was never shown but in his teacliing, that he always abstained from persecution, ond that tliough the virtues of the man were worfjiy of praise, yet thanks should be given to (>od, brcnuse through him he restored the doctrines of the true church, and that the perpetual consent of the holy church of Christ spoke the voice of those doc- trines.) Therefore, continued he, let him not attempt to judge of Luther by his defects alone. I myself translated his letter to Hen* ry Vni., and published it in a pamphlet. I would recommend it strongly to you, and would advise you to bring it with you to Ba- linamore, and I promise you that you will very soon change your opinion of that wonderful, noble-minded, holy man. He asks me am I not bound by the ten commandments '( 1 tell you I am. The Holy Ghost has imprinted them on my soul, and ho hag taught me to obey them. I walk in the way of the commandments of the Lord, because he has given me liberty. I run in the way of th« Lord. He objects to my preaching, but I say he must have it. YeSif yes, I will preach. I come here to persuade you, and to induce you to embrace the truths of the holy Catholic religion, and I will proceed as I have begun. I would say to you. Sir, as I have said td an infidel. I was brought to see Carlisle in jail, and after we had spo- ken together and I had completely stopped his mouth, as I have itop« ped the Rev. |Mr. Maguirc's, I asked him " Are you happy now in your belief. Wa all look for happiness, you look for it by the good works which you do. Are you happy ?" He stammered out, afler some hesitation, '• Why, why, why, yes I am happy." " Then,** said I, "if you are you do not waht Christ. You are whole and ' therefore do not require the physician.'* Now, I say to you, Sir, if you are happy in your good works and in your mixture of good ment, *' Oh, why did I come up to this discussion at all? Oh, how I have sunk my popularity. What scandal have I not given, and what injury have I not done my religion 1" Ascribe that to its true cause, and cry out with a true spirit of repentance, *♦ O, Lord Je- sus, I have blasphemed tliee by thinking I could accomplish mf saN vation by any action of my own. I now see that I rourt look to thee, and thee alone, and that off myself I can accomplish nothing." Then, Sir, will you come over tome, and the conclusion of this di«- cussion will be as happy as I could wish, (cheers.) But I will touch ' your heart. I tell you, you are not happy. I tell you, you canno^ be happy I once held* your principl<;s.' I once imagined that I H 1 Hi THJB DISCUSSION. would be saved by fliith and good work», and I was unhappjr. I flung off the belief. I went to my Saviour ai a bankrupt, devoid of all merit. I found out that he was the Alpha and Omega—the firtt and the laat, the beginning and the end, and I found peace and hap- piness; He object* to me when I aoy I have the spirit that Mar- tial the heretic »aid he had the spirit also, and therefore that wo are on the same footing. No; I say that Martial is a heretic, and I abominate him as much as you do. But I must not detain you by wandering. Though if I am wandering 1 call upon him to bear tes- timony that 1 am following htm. I am, I say. Sir, following you as fast as I can, and 1 am now gomg to answer every argument that you have advaneed. Oh, Sir I tell you your battle is against Christ. You hove not justice or truth upon your side. He talked about St. Paul's epistle to Timothy with regard to widows. Now, 1 tell you be mistakes the meaning of what he quoted, as every one majr per- ceive from the context. I will give you the entiro of it — *< But if any widow have any children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents ; for that is good and ac- ceptable before God." But now, mark the kind of widows that were to be relieved — " Now, she that is a widow indeed and desolate trusteth in God, and continueth in supplication and prayers night and day," But, mark, my friends, she was not bound to do so. There » yet another thing connected with this which 1 must ob- serve. Ihe reverend gentleman asks me are vows allowed. I say that any who chooses may take a vow, but I deny that he should be bound neck and heels to oblige hin^ to observe it. I object to your anathematizing and driving out from among you those who choose to break a vow which they had voluntarily taken. ! say a man that breaks his solemn vow you should not interfere with him but leave it between himself and his Godt St. Paul goes on — " But ■he that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.^' To be sure ■he is, but that proves nothing in his favour. "And these things give in charge that they may be blameless. But if any pro- vide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Let not the widow be taken into the number under tliree score years old, having been the wife of one man." That is of one roan at a time, for you are all aware that under the old law polygamy and bigamy were allowed. But here she should be the wife of only one at a time, ' that is, she ihould be a respectable woman — " Well reported of for good works, if she have brought up children, if she have lodged atrangerS, if she have washed the saints's feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have followed every good work." Now, remem- ber, my brethren, that you are not to mterpret this last part accord- ing to the cavils of Rome, but according to principle. " Washing the saints* feet," is not to be taken literally. You are not required absolutely to do so, though they do it in Home. Now, instead of washing people's foet, let me ask, would it not be better if they would build houses and furnish them with towels and soap, where they could wash themselves. I tell you that it is possible, nay, pro- bable, that by the ostentatious display of the Grand Lama (which is M FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. MB evoid of .the firat ind hap« lat Mar- It wo arc ic, and I n you by bear tet- ig you as lent that ist Christ. about St. 1 tell you may per- But if any gt to show sd and ac- ) that were d desolate lyers night i'to do so. 1 roust ob- red. I say e should be ct to your yho choose say a man ith him but on—" But ;<> be sure And these if any pro- n house, he Let not the old, having Iroe, for you Igamy were at a time, ported of for have lodged ave relieved Jow, romem- part accord- « Washing not required iw, instead of etter if they soapt where jle, nay, pro- inia (which is the name that should be eiven to the Roman Pontiff,) he nav ask to make lighter the bonds and chains with which he blinds his followers. I differ with them on that point, and I diifor with my reverend friend on the general meaning of the passage. The epistle goes on — " But the younger widows refuse ; for when they have begun to wax wan- ton against Christ, they will marry." It is more than probable that it wal found that the young women did not observe the rules, and, therefore, it was best to get old. For there were alms-houses, and if a person were able to support herself either by marrying or other- wise, it would not of course be right to get for her charitable sup- port. " And withal they learn to be iois, wandering about from house to home, and not onlv idlers but tattlers also, and busy bo- diet speaking things which they ought not." And what does he then say— <" I will, therefore, that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, and give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.*' Now, there is the whole context ; and doea it not make the meaning plain and obvious. Now, he tells me that what is said relative to forbidding to marry, was addressed to the Pricilianists, Manicheeans, Montanists, and other heretics he named, for I did not mind them. You might as well say that the prohibi- tion to worship graven images was addressed to the Jews, and not to you. I don't care about whom St. Paul spoke ; what he said suits you, and that is all I care. Therefore your argument as to the origm- al purpose of the text falls to the ground. Now, I think I have done as much as 1 could do. I do say, my friend, candidly and in ho- nor, that I am endeavoring to answer every word you said, and I beg of you to keep in mind what I have said about the beast. I tell you again that your beast will be a living witness when all else is silent. Rev. Mr. Maouirb — I am happy for my fViend't sake that hit half hour is out, I never saw a man more puzzled to watte one than he was. It was clearly evident to you that he wasted as much time as he could in preaching, in order that he might come near the close before he would touch on any of the points which were the subjects of my observations. I now, in the first place, would say that I am perfectly satisfied that he should continue his preaching as lon^ as he chooses. It answers me very well. I will now begin with his last observation, because it is the freshest on your memory. He says that we forbid to marry. Now, I would remind you, Sir, of an observation that I made the other day, and which applies equally now as when I made it. It is that when any topic has beeii discussed and disposed of, and when all parties are satisfied with its finale you return to it again with a new fUnd of information, and with all the courage of a representative of Trinity College. Did I not quote to you St. Dionysius, St. Irenseus, and St. Augustine, to show you that the observations of St. Paul were directed against the Manichffians, the Montanists, and others, who held that mar- riage was an invention of the devil. They taught that there were two principles, the good and the evil one, and that marriage was the invention of the latter. After those fathers T quoted several Protestant writers of note who were of the same opinion. But, even if I did not, let me ask how can the text refer to us. Do we forbid u« THE DISCUSSION', Irt iMaity t We tla not. On the contrary, we esteem matrimony so )iigh)y that it id one of the seven sacraments. You cut o(F five of those sacraments, and gutted another — I mean the blessed Eucha- rigt. So th^t, in point of fact, you have but one sacrament. We have still, and ever will have, the seven, and matrimony is one of them. Is not that a very curious way of forbidding marriage ? You ^alkiid qf iny losing my popularity. I did gain some popularity by H former discussion. You never did. Therefore I had something to lo8e->-you had nothingi God knows I bear you no malicei nott Aq I think you bear any against me ; but *. must say that it was bftd for you to say that we forbid marriage, when all the Catholics hire present know the instructions that we give to the wife to love and be dutiful to her husband ; and to the husband to be affectionate to his wifck St. I^aul says that this is a " great sacrament.'' It is true, you translate that " mystery." I would tell you. Sir, that every sa^ crament is a mystery, though every mystery is not a sacrament. The Trinity is a mystery, but it is not a sacrament. Now all we aay with regard to marriage is, that it is perfectly lawful and lauda* blc) except when a person makes a solemn vow to God not to mar- 4ry. We say that the church requires clergymen — she does not force any person, to become so ; on the contrary, she is obliged to .Inject a great many. But if any one come to her to look for holy orders, she tells them that they must marry the church, the body of Christ, and that they cannot have two wives. St. Paul says, <' he that has a wife is solicitous that he may please her." But if he has ti0ne> of course he can't be so. Now let me ask you why do you ^tnake the Fellows of Trinity College remain single 1 Are they al- lowed td marry, and if not, why and by whom are (hey prevented 1 rWhy keep tliem from marrying who never made a vow against it, and require us to marry who always make a solemn one. You have tead of the sect of Harmonists established by Dr. Pau, in America, and you know what happened them. Now, Sir, with regard to the passage from St Paul, you entirely mistake me. I was certainly talking of widows, but not of such as marry. I quoted St. Augug. lpable to my reverend friend to explain all this, because the washing of « he feet was a corporal work of mercy, and a mark ofjiolinesd. that he does not much relish* It is contrary to the sjpiirit that is in him, and I never saw a man taken so much aback as he was when he stumbled on the passage. My reve- rend friend talks of alms-houses in the days of St. Paul ; but I tell him that the text does not refer to any such institution for there were none such then. There were no parishes and dis. trict houses in these days, for the Christians were too poor ; but I will tell you to what the passage refers. When the apostles were done preaching they used to make a collection for the poor Pagans and Jews who had given up all their means, and whose relatioiiH abandoned them on account of their joining the new religion. My brethren you will see how I dispose ot the next point — he says, we anathematize and drive out fr^mi us those who break a solemn voluntary vow te God, and he blames us for that. Surely if they have made a vow in the sight of God, and if ihey break that vow, you would not have us to- lerate them ! Gh, but I understand you. Your church Uiat has its days for fasting ; its Fridays and its Saturdays ; and its feasts and its holidays, in honor of saints and angels, but whose precepts are laughed at in practice, would not like to say that solemn xow^ and undertakings must be observed. I know, Sir, well \vhat you mean. You would not eliminate your church. You would excuse h-^-. It reminds me of the motto of King William the Third, which was — **^on rapuised recepi.'^ " Ob, hut," says Denn Swift, ''the receiver is as bad as the thief," (laughter.) "We/' you say, " have got our fast, ing from you, we have got our sacraments from you, we have got our prayers from you, we have got our scriptiues from you," and you've got all lhe5e from antichrist — Bravissimo. A pret- ty church yours,' with your prayers, your sacraments, your churches, yoiu" ceremoniesj your very scriptures from antichrist. Oh, but you recollect the great picture he showed you. It was broad at (he top, and it became gradually nairower till it end- ed in something like a serpent's (ail. That is as good as argument, I suppose. You admit you have four councils from us— you admit that from us you have your baptism, your ordination, your pra3''er9, and your scriptures : and from whom? Anliohrist* Now» that's a sensible man for ■->] ^t\ '^Vv,. n cannot commit a sin who has not deliberation and will, ooth of which would be absent in the instance which I have mentioned. Now you talked in a wonder, ful manner of4he passage of St. Paul, and you spol:e in Latin. Now I suppose I will have to speak in Laiin too. But po. The words mo that some men should do so and so. Now I proved to you from St. Agustine that the expression " eunuch" was not to be taken literally, but in a spiritual sense, and thus it is pos* sible to all men. By what you say, you would make chastity impossible to all. Now, you spoke a gaeat deal about Luther— you said he was a holy and a noble.minued man, and that it was immaterial whether he was tempted by the devil if he did not yield — You know that Caisar Oiway, a clever and a learn- ed man, has translated Luther, and in his translation you will read a description of Luther's inieiview with the devil. You will see that he trembled, and the very hairs of his head stood on end with terror when he saw him, and (bedevil said to him, ** Mighty Luther, why dost thou fear me V* and then iheir ar- guments about the mass began, and Luther stood out stoutly for it for along time. You atiiked me did he yeld to the devil 1 I say he did, and he admits himself that he was overcome by him after five conferences, and that he gave in. I will bring you the book if you choose. I will ask you to translate it, and if you do not admit that they were real conferences (that is if you believe the words of Luther) and that he was overcome by, and yielded to the devil, I will give up the disciiseion. His own disciple, Ju^^ius Jonas, hns translated ii into Latin, and I have the book here if you wish to see it. If yon desire FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. 149 I shall be most happy to accomodate you vriih if. And again, to come to the apostacy. You have cited the Revein lions to prove It. Luther says "crepitus ventus longius fugit diabolum auam sacra scripluri !' There's Luther for you. Now I ask you, id I not call upon you to show that the two witnesses mentioi|. ed in (he Apocalypse were not Enoch and Elias 1 Did I not prove thai they were, and that they were *o come again upon earth in the time of antichrist, and to convert by their preaching 144,000 Jews ? Are they not to be put to denlh by antichrist in the very city where our blessed Lord was murdered? Are they not to be exposed in the streets three days and three nights in the sight of man, and then to come to life again and ascend visibly into heaven 1 And did not our Saviour aay, "When another shall come in my name you "will receive him." Has any other come 1 None. Thus is one link in the chain of your demotistalion wanted. Is not antichrist to bring down fire from heaven 1 and is he not to be empowred to work most smprising miracles? Is not, therefore, his reign to be shorten- ed lest the faithful should be deceived 1 And, I ask, must not "-:'(■ «- w wiH rlidly the 1 advanc- rove that niiariun, lerefoie I sophism, mes were now of it. Ensebiug, \e others, ich he Uv- pocalypse, t, the tiine, !ad in the jy a coun, with your es, is ana- 3ere, then, zant of the d : on the tie church, tie gospels, your argu. e to collect members beasta and as soon aa ecame em^ lied. Now her's ques, doubted 1 \i the Apo- Id give up \oi\\ want ever heard say that 1 •er is every d them in ,d them in M^imviO^dd Mit tfi\ THE DISCUSSION, > fi4TifE IIEV. MESSRS. ^fAGUIRE AW QREpft. 'n Vtt iiwit^niC iVVLJ "fs *jt*-'* ^? F'FTH Da •Satur DAT. —.(Continued.) .liv- .vyU ^i'^ if Rev. Mr. Gr^gq— ' i^ntleipen, The Rev. Mr. Magqir^ f]qey V|re}| ; to t^x us with our sec s and divisions. It furnishes me wjth a gQfl4 argument against hij, and you will see hpw di^rently hj^ will sppi^k / just now. Fo)r, let me tell hipoi, this lies at the very marroi^ of ^ the questiqn. On Saturday, he broi^ght the njqst gfp^i ph^rg|>; ' against the iqorality of the Englishwomen — Hejr. Mr. Magpire — I object to ^r. Qregg's rayjng or^e sjnglie wordqii the subject which was discussed on Saturday, (joq^ fr|e$ of ) i* chaif, cha|r,'^ and great confusion). ' ' Rev. Mr. M«NAMARArr-I beg of you to be quiet. The Rev, ^r. ' prege will be allqwed all ^^^ ^ime that is thus occqpie^, (liear)l ^ the Rev, Mr. Maguire has a perfect right tq ^>l^ject tq aqythjqg hq thinks prqper. '" ''. I|Lev. Mr. Qregg--rl put it tq the meetiqg, havp I qot a right tp ^' take up ;:>iy point that w^s n^ooteii this day, (cheers ap4 8r9?P9t piinglei wjth cries of "yes, yes.") Rey. Mr. Maguire —I merely ^ay quietly, we are here asratjqnaf men, let i)s decide thi$ rationally^ (cheers, an4 crje^ qf 'f chair. "" phair.'*) .. f ^ Rev. Mr. iV^'Nainara— :T admit that Mr. Maguirs«? did ineQtioi^ thq * ^ubjeci, bqt he drew no argument, from it. Now, I will al|qw M]r. .' Qregg to mention it* so that he also will found no afgqmep^ qpqi) jt. '^ /relative tq the last day's discu^siqn. Rey. ^][r. IVfaguire— -I really think qqr cqi^duct on the h^t ^a.y ^ ^as very disgraceful. I am heartily ashamed of it. Rev. Mr. (^egg-^I assert, before the world, that Mr. Maguire'f . j^cci^^tionp^ of the En^lNhwqnjen were (Qqst false anc^ c^luiqi^iqii^. | (cheers and groan^.) ' | Rev. IVf r. IVf aguire— And I hereby assert that if th^t hp thjo ca^q « the parsons are n^rswon^ perjurers (cheery and groans.) | ^ev. Mr. M'Natpara— J ^qn't alfow ^rjy qbservatiqijs, Mr. Qfpgg. /9n Saturday'^ jdi^ciistion. ' - * ^ey. Mr. Qrq^— I Ijaye drawn up an ^polqgy, ifhiph | reqnire Air. MagMire to sign. It wa? to the eflFerfc— " I hereby re!tr#C| ill the allegation^ I fpade oq Saturday as tq the morality of the l^jk lishvomen, oqnfessing that t|l)ey ^re false and cal^mniqui.*' Wh\ yPM »lp tl??t, Sir ? r«' '■■J ^s* ■■4' ,l| 41 ^a ' '■ ■ r' •■ i , ; ■ 4 ■ i: .1 Jiii 153 THE DISCUSSION. . i 4.*tv. Mr. Maguire — ^Will you lign a paper, retracting ^our imper> tinent, insolent, filthy observations with regard to priests in the confessional 1 Hev. Mr. Gregg— I will — no, I won't ; I have proved every word of what I said. Sev. Mr, Maguire — And I have proved all I said en the testi'no- ny of sworn parsons. Rev. Mr. Gregg — ^Will you sign this 1 Am I not to stigmatise and refute the false and infamous charges you made ? Rev. Mr. Maguire — Did you not stigmatise my religion ? Do I want to reply to you now 1 Rev. Mr. N«. minister it ; and for myself I protest against the renewal of the in- famous, unchristian, and disgraceful discussion of Saturday, (cheers and hisses.) Rev, Mr. Gregg — What made it \inchristian and infamous f Rev. Mr. Maguire—Gentlemen, you will recollect that I apolo- gised for being obliged to mention the Englishwomen as I did. I had authority for every word I said, and I am bound to give that authority if I be called on — a duty which I will fulfil with pleasure, (hear, hear.) Rev. Mr. Nangle— >A11 I say is that my proposition was made in the spirit of fair play, (cheers.) Let the onus of the odium lie on thoBe that rejected it, (groars and cheering.) Rev. Mr. M'Namara— For my part I will feel honoured with the odium of having prevented so infamous and disgusting a discussion a» that of Saturday from being continued, (great cheering, mingled with hisses.) Rev. Mr. Gregg — And I feel honoured with the odium of expo|« ing Dens, (cheers and groans.) :? '^ ;* Rev. Mr. Maguire — T would like a month's discussion of the sub- ject, if it were worthy of Christianity. Rev. Mr. Gregg — It is unworthy of Christianity, therefore we should have it, (great confusion, with cries of « read the terms,") Rev. Mr. Maguire— Were you not talking of Irish immorality. Rev. Mr. Gregg — No, of Popish immornlity ; I don't know what decision the chairmen have come to. The Itev. Mr. Maguire says he apologises for the charges he made. Rev. Mr. Maguire— I said no such thing ; I said t apologised for being forced to make them ; but I have no doubt of the truth of the facts I mentioned, (cheers and groans.) Rev. Mr. Gregg — Let me expose their falsehood. Rev. Mr. Maguire — If my chairman consent I wiU give you a day (cheers^ if you provide not to use any indecent words. Rev. Mr. Gregg— I won't use a word that is not in Dens' (cbeerj and groans). -.^-,„ lit.^. ^\, \ FIFTH DAY— SATURDAY. 15$ Rsv. Mr. Moguire— .No : I \von*t use one word that if not sworn to by parsons, (cheers and groans.) Rev. Mr. Oregg-^I agree ; Jet to-morrow be the dayi Rev. Mr. M*Namara — I won't agree to any day being appointed. ' Rev. Mr. Gregg— I won't betray my cause for any man. ' Rev. Mr. Maguire— This is a regular bear-garden. Go on with your half hour. Rev. Mr. Gregg— I claim to proceed with the topic. It is fair and proper if Mr. Maguire agree. Rev. Mr. Maguire — ^Oh, but I won*t agree, (cheers and hisses.) ^ Rev, Mr. Gregg — See who rurts from nis colors now, (groans and cheers.) Mr. Maguire— Why did you not go on with it the first half hour ?■ Mr. Gregg—Because I did not like. ^^ -j^ wi (. r # M 'rii iii ItiiK DISCUSSION. It II' S. • ' ^r liloiit^ in the Apoca1yp^«, and said dint 1 had not iepMe^ ^<> him; Now, I said, and I say still that our church stvinds in the t)lace of ihein, ilnd that the wordii, which are not td be taken literally afe ihediogically tirue, though dur number exceeds two. He says I did hot Ankwer him .with regard tb where our Saviour waa killed, or io the (QXt**' Wheil litidther shall come in my name, him will yoii i«ceive." List ihe 1-efaoi^fc say whether I did or not. Thfen as to'the ihvee jpcai*! and a half, he says he wishes I would shbiv hidi from Scripture thit he h wrong and I am right. Now^ I say that, accord- ing to the ordinary language of the holy Scripture^, we roiist inter- JMret the eikpreision '' A time, and Hmesj and half a time" as signi- nring 1260 years r fdi*, in prbphetic lumbers, days are always takert n>r yiei^i It is a6^c: ding td the analogy of scriptures, for through- but them t^e find t)ie jirdbHetd Using days for years. In the pro- itrecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel everyday was a ytor-~that is, the lerioiil aliogbkheir wii$ 490 years, and therefore at the end of that ime the prophiecy wiis accomplished. Again, in ExekieU the 4th bhapter and ^th,vei-sej yoii find <' And thou shall bear the iniquity bf the noiise df Judah forty {]|iys. I have appbinted thee each day JToir i ^eaJr." Now; what do you stiy td that i That ii specific) Take all that down and I hope you'll feel the force of it. In Levi- iicud ydu will find the expression df « seVen sabbaths of years;" Mow i» not that days for years ? Ndw, then, he tells you that be- bfidib the Felldws of Trihity College belong to the corporation of iMcheldrsi the cbiirch of Home is right in fbrbidding hier priests to in4riir* Why her fellows are not bdund by a vow; nor is it a mor- iai sin iToir th^ln td iharry. Their hAtids are not bound by the prd- \/qfii as aire the hands bf the priest by the bishops— so faf^ as their not ihari'Ving, the arialogV is good, but no further ; and thie contusion sought to be drawn ddes ndi stand. Theri he says tht» church does iiotfoirbid td mariry; but if A young man come to be fl priest, he is iold thdt hb bannoc marry if once he is in holy orders, but be need iiot enter thiem if hie does not like. Now, let me ask, when they dd become priekU, aire they not bound -to the observance of a rash, un- christian ana diabolical vow ? I am convinced that there are sotne tof the priesthoddin this room who will figree with me in this, and I tell them that if there were no other t-ieason for their leaving theiir apostacy and bomibg dUt of Babylon, it is the unchristian custom bf forbidding thein to Uiatry; Now don't you admit they aire for- biddeiki ..• ,\ ■?; < , : ^eV. Mir. Ma^ire— They forbid themsfelves. ' Rev; Mir. Gre^g — Don't you admit thdy are forbidden when or- dained t Retr; Mir. MagUirle— Yes, whleh they takb a solemn vow before CJod. ., i .Rev. IVfir. Gregg— ^N6; td antibhirist (hisses); New ddesen't that felW the, visibility and iUvisibility. They are forbidden and they ilire hot. 1 Mny it is a daninable cUstom. I say it is unchristian to force ybuDji baen to obseirve a vow which they \kke at a time when they Jk^'o^ nbt whetheir they are capable of keeping it or not; [hear, bear, frdi^ eJc-j[iriest Nblan]. Ndw, mark well, he hasiiotgHp- ■WT SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. 15S p\^A With a single, one of my argfiinients, whereas t have grapu pled with his, and detected him in blunder after blunder, all of which he commited because he belongs) to n chUtch, the es^ sense of which is error. You isaid, Sir, we cduld not absol?* a cat* No, we cannot absolve a cat ; ddr have we the power of reading the gospel to cure sick beasts. But this much I tell you, when we say "Believe in the Lord Jesus Chrjst, anct you will be saved," we impart strength, and pea6e, and com^' fort to the soul. Our absolution is first dedlardtory. When we have investigated into the stale of the penitent, and seen th&t he is a true believer, We give him the pairdun of his sins, and tell him he uiay go in peace. Secondly, it may be instrumental in raising the soul to Christ, and producing the holiness* When talking of confession the Risv. Mr. Maguire made a fla. grant and horrid misquoiation of the holy word. He said that the text was, " Whatsoever sins shall be loosed on earth are loosed in heaven," &ci Now, I tell you there is no such thing in the bible. There's your Ballinamdre texturian for you* Rev. Mr. Maguire — 1 leave it to the notes. Revk Mr. Gregg — I have notes of my own ; it is ^^whosever sins you shall loose." Next we have calumnies against the church on account of Henry the Eighth ; it is a great proof o^ the interfp'-ence of God in pulling down the church of ftome, by inspiring; with a sense of the casuistical nice distinctions oi the church' Next, with regard to the city of the seven hills | he talks of Dublin being builioti seven hills, and London, ana Consiantinopie, and Builinamore, for aught I know ■» •> it being two o'clock, the meeting adjourned till Tuesday; '\ SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. The disputants were at their posts at the usudt hour— *thd toom was densely crowded, and the proceeduigs seemed td excite, if not great interest, ai: least, great curiosity. At eleven o'clock Mr. Gregg rose, and said-— I beg leave ta iask you, Mr. Maguire, will you consent to prolong the descus4 sion of this day to three o*clock ? *^ Mr. Majguirr — I am not inclined lo depart ft-om Ihe tule laid down, and if 1 were, my health would not permit. Mr. Grbgg then proceeded-^Mj'" friends, you will give me credit when I say that I feel sincere regret that the state of my opponent's health is such, as not to permit him to continue the discussion till three o'clock, and I am sure that every man ill this assembly, Protestant and €atholic, feels with me. I re^ gret, on the Rev. gentleman's own account, and I regret it for another reason, namely, that I had laid down four subjects "Vi' ■ !f' 1: 1 i t M .■,!,,■ H "1 ; '(• r ■ ^ I :| •1.5G I ' THE DISCUSSION. ^m i hi!' fortnyMlf Id diiirMiBa ihi.^ dny, which il will be impossible (Ofn4 ler fully ir»lo in Ihree 8[ieeuhe8« I i^'isf, however, content uiy- •elf with taking np but two or three of iliein. I will commp.nco with the apofitacy of the church of Rome, und I glory in that icligipn which denies her power. I will refer the reverend ^entlonmn to the 2d of Timothy, 4lh chap., to ahovr that his doctrines about abstaining from meat, and forbidding to marry, is without foundation in the Scriptures, and that it applies to those, who, in \\iSt. Pnul loJTiinolhy.: I shall road it for you .->• ** If a mail desire the olTce of a bishop h»3 »!e?irelh a r/uod woik. It behoveth, therefore, a bishop to bo blair>elcpF, ihe hiihband of one wife, sober, prudeni, of {rood behiiviour. ch.iiile, given to hoFpilality, a teacher," There, my friends, youhtt^ ihe bishop was to have a wife. But some of the couunentators of Mr. Maguire*s church «ay that that wife is to be the church, Bui hear what is further said with regard to the duties of a bi. shop ; "Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not (pinrrel. some, not covetous, but one thai ruleih well his own house, iuving his childicn in subjection with nil chastity." My friends, you see that he was not only to be married, but al«o to have children, though I by no means say that every married man must have children. The command to have one wife related to the bigamy which was prevalent in those days. Mr. Maguire says that those children mentioned in the scripture nra the lambs and thecp of (he bishop — that ihuy are his flock^-^ his spiritual children. I wonder how Mr. Mnguire could bo misrepresent a portion of scripture so plain (o every understan. ing, for the text goes on to give the bishop directions how h& shall rule his house anJ hia family, and adds, *^if a man know- not how to rule his own house how shall he rule the church of God. " What do you say to iha', Mr. Maguire 1 (loud cheer* from a portion of the audience). Suppose he would say thnt it was only the bishops who were to marry and have one mfc, I shall show him the directions given to priests and deRcoDd with regard to marriage, for I am net afraid of using the word priest, though I doii*t use it in the same sense as Mr. Magnirei for priest is from prester, which is a contraction of prewyter, and means an elder. I come now to tho priests and deaconr : — "Deacons in like manner chaste, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre, holding the mystery of faith in a pure science, and let these also first bs proved, and so let them minister, having no g>! "ne. The wo^ men, in like manner, chaste — not slandereis, but sober and faithful in all things ;"and here let Mr. Maguire mark the next> passage — " Let deacons be the husband of one wife, who rultf well their children, and their own houses ; for they that hdvo minisierdd well will purchase to themselves a good degree and much confidence of the faiih that Is in Jesus*" I.donHwQtu I t i 118 :{.\u rm DISCUSSION, i !' I r i: jf<-. II; m Her at the priests being confounded at (bi« text ; and I an) nsionitfhed at Mr. Maguire iltial )ie could toke tuch tense out of any portion of the scriptures as that the marrioge of ihe t\$r^y was not allowed iu the times of the apostles, and the earliest days of the church. He makes this assertion, and then he comes on with whnt he calls proofs dgninst his npos. Cacy, whilst tho 'soriptues Jirectly contradicts him. I sfiali give him furth(:>' proofs ibnt i\\(i marringe of iho clergy in iha dnyt of the apostles was not only npproved of but command. ed. (Here tho reverend gentleinar^ rend n portion of Paul's epistle to Titus. J | put tpese two questions to him, and let him answer them distinctly. Do you deny )|int the clergy in the early days of the church and in the times of the apostles were married, and that your celibacy leads to iho greatest crimes and immorality 1 He talks to me of the crira^ and vi. jces of the Protestant people of England and the Protestant clergy; but | think eveiy raiioiiul man will admit that (he Protestant clergyman, with his wife and family about him, IS lets liable to fall into vices or crimes of any description, than the priest, with his nieco at home befoie him — nyr, fais nie/BO. You have all heard of the priests nieces (cries of disapprobation.) Those are plain, mnnifbst observations. As I havf mentioned, \}e has spoken of the imrnorailty of ifie people of Protestant England, but I will show him where veal vice and hnmorality are to be found ; and I won't go liUQt about the scum of society, .an in the mo. jMsterie^ and conver)ts throughout England. He therefore read A list of crimes and criminals so disgusting: that he was re. I^tedly interupted wit^h cried nf "shame, shame." He lh(a iCOQtinaed-;— Will the Rev. Mr Mnguirc, who has talked of (be iroodok^ality of England, venture to guess how many bastards^ «fere to be found in it in them days \ He says that confession JB becessary — ^that they mu>:t go iqto the corners of the house to aearoi^ out tbe crimes and the sins of offenders. 1 have gone junto the corners of the houses and of many of bis religious ilouaeS) and frhat a picture of vice and villany hav6 I pre. iBDtei to your view. I will read n little moie for you, and give you some of the results of Popery and pf confesson. jaere ia a pleasant story for you-~-there was a certain lady who V'isi^af to jl^ave ij^Q f^rj^^ces — tj^e spiritual cierjyices pf a ^ ■p^ SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. fine jolly friar who wa«in llic neighbourhuod — the preteniird to b« kick, tind tlitt friar was »ent fur ; when he came in he tuld the p«o* pie in the room thut he mutt firkt begin by bearing her confeMion, and they were all ordered out. The husband came home rather sooner than he was expected, and befure the lady was done with her confoHSor, and having gone into the roum in a hurry, the friar was found completely tans cuU4fe, and when a^ked what he waa about — why he was in that condition -he replied that his inexures* sibles were a relic of St. Bernard, and that he wan going to leave them with the lady lest she might get a rblup»e. The lady said she felt quite recovered and tlmt mIic winhed them to be lefl : but even that was not thu tinisli of the buhiness ; he came buck with lighted candles and ringing of bells, to curry uway the holy garment in pro« cession ; und cuuKud the people to kiss it on its march, and among the roHt the noodle of a husband : and, by*the'bye, the husband wuti a physician, and he was the first to set the example. Now ia not thai H good story ; but it is nothing to others tlmt 1 could read for y(M In pr'n of fact that's one of the decentest in the colleo* tion, (laughter, , Why I could read tor you from the attested con^ . fessions of im r.k», nuns, abbots, priests, and friars of that period, a list of aboniinutions t. d crimes which would shock the hardest hear% ^t is nothing h ■: the truth of Ciirist Jesus, and a wish to ex*' posf- the abominable impostures of the church of Kome that could induce me to bring them befure you. Go to foreign countries, and aee what has been the result of the confessional, und of Popish practice. See what was the state of religious houses in England in the time of King Henry the Eighth. What I have read for you ia but ry small portion of the crimes and abominations which then ex^ isted. As 1 have told you, nothing but a love of Christ, and the truth, could have induced me to bring them before you, and I call upon you to ponder upon the consequences of forbidding marriages. He talked of England and its immorality, but look upon Protestant England, which is so distinguished above all other nations for the delicacy of the intercourse between the sexes. Mr. Muguire abusea England, and he goes to the scum of the country, the very outcasta of society, to prove that crime and immorality exist. 1 dpo't do that. I go into his religious houses and I bearch them out, I take the very cream — the apple of the subject. 1 go to that quarter where, if perfection exist at all, it ought to be found. I tir ?!; novf I have, my friends, satisfactorily settled the question about forbid- ding to marry, and shown you the horrible consequences tha( result from it. I will go to the very beginning of the subject. T will go to first principles, for I am fond of principles, although Mr. Maguire says he cannot bind me to my principles. I will show you the plain meaning of the Scriptures upon this subject. The word employed in the original Scriptures for meats, is the word Piomatot which means any kind of food. I refer you to Matthew, ciiapter I4th, verse J. 5th, where the passage runs thus in the Greek, ** n'^orasonn heaut- Ins bromata, where the w%ird bromata evidently means victuals. ^ like manner the Greek word artost literally bread, is used indisi.^' minately fur food or any kind of vietuals. See Matthew, 6th chapi T ^ 180 THE DISCUSSION. and 11th verie, "Give us this day our daily bread.*' Tl.e word hsre translated bread is in the original Greek arto», and roanifestly means bread or meat, or any matter of human substance. Again, in the 2d Samuel, chapter 9, verse 10, by the bread is meant the whole produce of the earth. Again, in Matthew, lOth chap, and lOth verse — " The workman is worthy of his meat ;" the words of the Greek are, " axios gar ho ergates tes trophes autou eslin'^ — irophe, translated meat, signifying food in general, although you, Mr. Ma- guire, in your translation, call it hire. From all this it is evident that provisioiis of all kinds are meant. J shall now proceed to show the application of the prophecy in the Apocalypse, and other portions of scripture, with regard to the practices of the Romish church, I refer to rules drawn up for the guidance of monks and nuns, which are acted upon in monasteries and convents. It is ex- pressly laid down that they shall abstain fiom ail species of flesh — e camibus quadrupedum omnium. No monk hath leave to eat any flesh meat, and others who are not monks, are forbidden to eat it . except upon certain feast days. I will come next to the votum pan- pertaiis of the monks and nuns. Here the reverend gentleman's half hour ended. Rev. Mr. Maguire then came forward — Well, my friends, I may truly say that I require great patience to listen to the calumnies, the foul language, and the filthy stories of this man. Did 1 not agree with him out of the holy scriptures, and call; upon him dis« tinctly to meet those arguments by scripture or by facts 1 But in- stead of that he runs to his party, a:)d he heaps abuse and calumny upon the Catholic religion from the works of hired liars, who have been a thousand times convicted of the grossest lies. 1 appeal to the scriptures of the living God, and I call the apostles and early saints ofthe church as my witnesses ; but he appeals to Henry the Eighth, and to the pack of hired liars and robbers who were employ- ed by that monster, who assisted him in robbing, plundering, and devastating the religious houses of England, and devoting their spoil not to the service of God but to the most beastly and abominable purposes. I ask you, my friends, as rational men come here to lis- ten to this great discussion, involving the fundamental truths of Christianity, if this be a way to meet my arguments 1 Let it go forth and be recorded that I appeal to the scriptures, and that he appeals to liars, murderers, and robbers. You heaa-d the foul and filthy language he made use of. I shall not follow his example ; the presence of ladies in itself prevents my mentioning facts con- nected with the four^ders of his religion and with Protestantism which would shock morality and decency. But those things, after all, have little to do with the great question at issue, and an inde« cent expression shall not pass my lips — (cheers). I may again re- mark that the work out of which he quoted is the report of a com- mission of robbers, got up by Henry the Eighth when he set his heart upon plundering the churches, and reducing England from a state or ease, happiness, and comfort, which si e has never known since that day. I will produce Protestant authority in abundance 10 fhow that the more barefaced calumnies were uttered ag^iiet the SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. 161 Catholic religious houses, that they might be plundered with the more ease and security. I could also give you Protestant authority that in no country in the world was there evel* so much crime and immorality as in England after the destruction of the religious houses. I refer you to Heylaod's history of the times of Edward the Sixth. I will give you Protestant authority, too, with regard to the character of the first ■ eformers. Heac what Henry the Eighth, one of the patrons of the Reformation, says in parliament. " What Idve or charity is there among them — they are grasping, griping, immoral, lascivious— one teaching against another —they rail at the bishops, speak slanderously of the priesthood ;" precisely what you do, Mr. Gregg. ** Th^t most precious jewel, the word of God, ii sung and rhymed and jangled about in every tavern by people who do not understand it." Much after the fashion of the present day<^ *' riots, folly, and soforth." I give you Protestant authority, Mr* Greg^Jf I quoted Catholic historians, you would not, perhaps, be- lieve VR I give you as an authority for all this the first visible head of your holy church. But now, is it not too bad that I must go over the same ground again for him ? He has again attacked vows and the celibacy of the clergy ; bnt I ask him did I not quote almost all the holy fathers of the church, including Eusebius, Tertu- lian, Irseneus, to prove that the same meaning with regard to mar- riage and vows was deduced from the scriptures, and that they were held in the same sense in which I quoted them in this discussion ? Have I ever attertipted to prove that marriage was unlawful. Has not our church elevated it into the dignity of a sacrament, which we believe to have been instituted by Jesus Christ himself? Have not all the holy fathers held it in the same sense that we do t We forbid no man to marry, but we hold that he who forbids himself, and dedicates himself to God, shall be rewarded, as the scriptural say, much in this world, but much more in the world to com^ We hold that it is lawful and good in the sight of God to abstain from marriage f^r the kingdom of Heaven's sake, and that it would be damnable in those wlio have vowed to do so to break that voW. As I have said, is it not lamentable that I must be going over thfe same ground again with Mr. Gregg 1 He will not have the scrip- tures. I quoted them for him before— here they are again. Mind the way in which I argue. Mark the difference between his mode of arguing and mine. St. Paul's first epistle to the Corinthianl) 7th chapter, 7th, 8th, and 9th verses, says— « For I would that all men were even as myself ; but every man hath his proper gift of God-— one after this manner, another after that. I say, therefore, to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I ;" and then again, in the 32d and 33d verses—*' But I wonld have you without carefulness — he that is unmarried careth for the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But he that i« married careth for the things of the world and how he may please his wife." This was the sense in which the fathers held this por- tion of 8cn>ture when the church, acrording to Mr. Gregg, was Id all its golden purity, and is the same which I hold it is now. h is surprising to think hov^ he should say that we hold it in Imy othef • \ i, J, li-l r— ice THE DISCUSSION. ' ^Hl Hi 1 iHI 11 'fl B' 1 |H| 4I Strtte. Wk honor marriage, and we recommend It as an holy unioH between the Bexes. The Saviour recommenda it — and as I have said we have elevated it to the dignity of a sacrament. I have quot- ed the same texts beforci and gone over the same arguments, and we are doing nothing more now than giving our reporters thetrouhle of taking down the same things over again. How many passages have I quoted before about vows ? Hut 1 ask him does he mean to say that men may break their vows 'I I gave him 19 texts of scripture and the authority of all the holy fathers in support of my princi- ples ; and what does he do in return ? He quotes passages in which J perfectly agree, but which do not bear upon the subject at all. Why, man, you are only duping and humbugging the entire meeting. Will you ever come to close quarters, and take up my arguments seriaiim. Here, now, I will give you more scripture au- thority for fasting. When the Pharisees came to our Saviour, they said to him, *' Why do the disciples of .John the Baptist 1^^ and thy disciples fast not 1" Our Saviour replied to them, '< SMN the children of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them ? But when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then shall they fast." The bridegroom has been taken away, and we do fast just as the Lord foretold — by abstaining from such meats as the church points out. Mr. Gregg, I ask do you admit the fast of Lent ; or were the fasts of Lent observed when the church was in all her pu- rity 1 Give me a direct answer to that question— that is, if you can give a direct answer to anything. If you do not admit it, I will prove it — and here again is Eusebius, an authority upon that sub- ject. He says that flesh was forbidden, and that Lent was observed with fasting and great prayer. Again, he accuses us of adoring images, and paying honor to senseless things, and prostrating our- selves before them. We adore only God alone. The honour or adoration which we pay to anything but God alone is such as is mentioned in the scripture as having been paid to the staff of his son Joseph. We honour our father and mother — it may be said v^e adore them, but not as God. But the original word in Greek — proskunea — literally means paying honour to our evincing affection. When a man is married he says to his wife, " With my body I do thee worship" — but is ir *he worship which is paid to God ? When Jacob came before his son Joseph, it is said that he adored the top of his rod. Joseph was a lively emblem of the new law, and when his father came before him he adored the sceptre, or rod, which he held in his hand. Now I ask you, Mr. Gregg, is your heart so cal- lous, or are you so insensible to the truth, as to continue in your assertion, that we, Soman Catholics, are idolaters, or that we wor- §hip anything but the true and living God ? You would pro«trate yourself before your king if you went into his presence, when no one would say that you adored him as a god. You would even prostrate yourself before the Grand Turk, as is the custom of the country, but would not I be a false and insincere mnn, if 1 said you adored him as a god ? And yet how much more culloo^ and luird- hearted you must be, when we tell yu that we, adore none h\i\ the living and true God, and you yet persist in cliar^jing us with idi the idle and foolish. But hear what Voscius says — *« We do not believe that the Pope is Antichrist— no such thing— no man uf learning or sense would believe it ; but we think it good for the Protestant religion, and to upset Popery, to make the people be- lievei|t' And in writing to a clergyman of his church, whom he calle^^thick skull," he says, " you must not leave off inculcating this doctrine, but keep it as a secret that is not to be divulged." Dr. Hammond laughp at the Protestants who would say that the Pope was Antichrist. He says the chufch does not resolve it ; but Protestants do not less firmly believe that the Pope was not Anti- christ. Some said he was, but scripture and facts were against it. Mr. Gregg said that he was sure the Pope was Antichrist, As well as we could hear, Mr. Gregg here said that he did not say that the Pope was Antichrist, but that the Romish church was* Mr. Maguirb — Well, then, there is no use in my going further* I have proved that the Pope cannot be Antichrist. But if you per- sist in saying that the Roman Catholic church is Antichiist, I ac- cuse you of wilful and judicial blindness. Well, again, .ill beard my arguments founded upon your cliarge of apostacy ag.iinst my church. I have shown who were the apostates. Luther, who said that he was instigated by the devil to leave the church. Henry the Eighth, who was instructed by Anna Boylen and by Luther, were the first apostates. But let me come to scripture. He spoke of ihe man of sin. I said it was that man of sin ; and so the text is in his own Protestant Bible ; but he did not know it. I really never met a man who was less acquainted with tiie Bible, or who has more assurance in making assertions ; for he said that day, when arguing on the te?tt, falsely quoted from his own Bible, •' there, my friends, is a clencher." But I care not one pin whether it be the man or th'it man — " it is all the same in the Greek. Again — our Saviour, speaking of Antichrist to the Jews, said that if another would come in his name him they would receive. I ask him now, and I asked him before, did the Jews ever receive the Pope ? The Jews vv^ere to receive Antichrist ; and until you show that the J'n the truth of Chrivi vball be in, umphant. But Popery so demoralizes the world, (hat if the rich were to give their substance toth« poor,ihere woidd oe noihinj^ but, strife and licenliousness, and the country would be iiirned into a field of blood. And if all the wealth of the idngdornswere scattered amongst th«m, they would still be \wor. 1 say that if there wan a geneial spraiking of those holy principles of the gospel over the world, men would be found who would give up their richei for the snke of the poor. Look at Protestant England for instance. I am astonished to see the liberality with which the English people part wiihtlieii wealth to relieve their brelhern who are in distress, and I have known these holy men, and holy women, who have their pursr-s open night and day, and who are expenody that he was reduced to such a state that it could not be said that he more than barely existed. I am glad to fee that my reverend friend has not reduced his body by fasting and prayer, and violence of that description. There are other stories of per. ions living in dirt and filth, which I couhl give to you u$qu9 ad fMuseamt and show that the idolatiies of India do not devote their followers to more degradation t ban does Popery. I shall, however, read for you another woilc. (Here the Rev. gentle, man went to search for the book, and was occupied in the search for a couple of minutes. Aye, here is the book. I have found; it is the life of Benedict Joseph Lavori, published by John Coyne. This contains an account of this worthy friar who has been deemed a saint in the Catholic church, whose old clothes worked miracles. It states that he placed what is called ii barrier of disgust between himself and man. kind ; that he 'ived in such a disgusting state that he could hardly be looked at ; that he abandoned himcelf to bites of dit?. agreeable insects ; (hat he would Jot suffer his clothes to be washed, nor his cell cleaned out ; that his head was uncomb. •d — his head uncombed, gentlemen. What do you think, that this Alihy being has had miraculous powers ascribed io his re. mai-ns, and to the remains of those duds which doubtless were not free from the disagreeable insects. Here we have it at. tested by the Rev. James Barnard, president of the Colkge of Lisbon, and vicar general of the district of London, that 1€3 mi- racles were performed by barely touching his remains. Or the remains of his garments. Ye?, my friends, Popery, which makes it a virtue to live rn filth and poverty, is the cause of the beg. gafy of It three pages in his works in which you will not meet with the recital of some miracle. It is related by him that Narcissus, who was once a priest, but apostatized and broke his vow, was visited in the night by an angel and scourged from the top of his head to the sole of his foot, and the next morning he went to the bishop and showed him the marks of the scouging, and begged on his kneas to be received again into the church. You laugh at the story, but if you do you laugh at Eusebins and at all the ancient historians of the church, and I leave you to the enjoyment of your scepticlsni^ in which I do not envy you. Why, 1 have innumerable texts of scripture in favour of mortification and fasting. $t. Paul says' — ** I chastise my body and keep it in subjection, lest when I preach to others I may myself become reprobate. " Yi)ti translate it *< a cast away," but it does not matter. Now, wh.-tt is the meaning of that 1 There are several other pas. sages to the same effect to be met with throughout St. PauPs epistle ; and now, let me ask you, if St Paul chastised his body, was it wrong for Benedict Joseph Labre to do so 1 be*> sides, you know. Sir, that the word manditicD, though it literUy signifies cleanliness, yet i* is generally used by all writers to signify the luxuries of life* You will observe, also^ that the moiives of these men cannot possibly be known to you. You should not, then, attack them for their acts when you do not know the springs of those acts. Some may live in the grace of God without punishing themselves ; but if oibora feel that thtjy cannot retain the grace of God, nor live a life of chastity wiihoiiL punishing themselves, then they are justified in doing so — nay, ihey are bound to do bo. You have read, 1 suppose, of the saiu: who was so strongly tempted by bis passions thai be used to roll himsef in whitethorns to subdue them; and if that WAS necet;^ary he was right. Would you say that it wa« an ungodly act 1 You would, for you hold ihnt no man can ] ob-»erv« the commandments ; therefore all are free fom them«;| You ti^ll me— following the example of the areh..heretio aq4 i\ >!J I 'I II. I 1 lil: 170 THR DISCUSSION. founder of yonr chinch, Luther— that the ob«ervarjce of ihe coinniaiidiiienfs is iinpossiMe to every one. But i tell you that there «re hundreds of ladies and gentlemen in ibis , room who bofh can, and do observe iheuL 1 will give you Luther's words in the original German, or in the Luiin translation by his disciple, where he makes the assertion which I have menlioned. You next talked of fasting, i tell you» Sir, I do not fast to becotne faint, (hough I mention that fasting and abstinence are both light and necessary, Now, Idt me ask you, Sir, is it right to ridicule what our blessed Saviour, the apostles, and all the boly'fathers and saints have both preached and practised 1 You want to force me again into a comparifioii of Roman Catholic with Engr, lish moraliy. I tell you all such comparisons are invidious, and [ M#not enter into them. But I will tell you one thing. There jsever was a necessity for the introduction of poor laws into England until Henry VI IL destroyed the Roman Ca- tholic monasteries and abbeys, where the poor were fed and clothed, and where they received not only spiritual but cor- poral stipport ; and transferred their properly toothers not lor the good of the poor, who originnllybeneiiited by it hut for the purpose of enriching those who backed him in his irreli- gious actions. I tell you that it was only when the reformation WAR. injl reduced to satisfy the lechery of the prince, and when the reffiious property was given to men who looked to their wives ann their children, and grand children, neglected the pooi, that Elizabeth was obliged to introduce poor laws ; and 1 tell you that she would have been shaken from her throne if she had not done eo. Look to history, and you will see that there waH no poverty in Popery, and that it came in with the coiiiiiig of Pro.> tesantism. You wilt find that our religion is practical chrstiani. ty. We practice what yon preach (cheers and hisses.) He tells vm that but for the blasted Popish religion his parsons and his bishops would give up their 60,000/. ami 30,000/. a.year and (hat the bishop of Derry'would give up his 90,000 green acres and sell all, and give it to the poor. Now, is not that a veiy lAodest assertion 1 (Laughter.) Now, if you believe that ( give you full liberty to believe every word he has said since the commencement of the discussion (cheers and groans.) But the fact is, he has given us nothng but assertions. He gives us the lying stories of a parcel of infamous writers^ He says that the work of Dr. Conssins was never nnswercd. But I say that it was ably answered by Howardiiie, and torn to pie^'esby Manning. But why should I imagine that he reads the works of Roman Catholic authors, when I know that he reads only, those of one i^irle of the question, land that he does not endeavour to eradicate the prejudice W^^] SKVENTU DAY--TUKSDAY. 171 whirh h^ Heiivtr^ fiom ififin* He inlkd of liiichelori*, nod inncki thfiii for IjKJncr ho) Why, otir .Saviour wna a bnchelor^ PhuI W:t!i A b;ich:lor, Luke Was ii biichclor, John the Bvniij^elJMi Mras H h.'icheloi, ai)() every si)i(|^le one of (hoide who foilowe; of the text was, that any one who had been married twice could not be a bishop, because it was an evidence that he was too much inclined to worldly indulgence to observe celibacy.-— It meant that suppose a man was married, and his wife died, if he married again he could not be consecrated a bishop. And is not that a perfectly cor' ect regulation ? Do you not know that if a man had been mrrried tuice he could not even become a deacon. Surely the same liberty that is alio.ved men should not be allowed clergymen, whether priests or bishops, who are canstantly handliog the sncraments and using the sacred things connected with the church and the altar. , You know also that in tlie old law, if a cer- tain fling occurred to tliem the priests could not even enter the temple till tiiey had bathed themselves in the evening. Why ? Because the old law was to be the perfect type in point of purity and holiness of the glorious sanctity in the new. 1 shall not say anything of the married clergymen of your church. I know that many of them have very great virtues ; but I do say that riches and luxuries are not among tde marks of the true church of Chirst. No ; the church of Christ has been always suhjected to persecution, and it ever will he persecuted as long as it exists. He then speaks of priests livin«; with their nieces. If a clergyman keeps a house, and cartnot marry, what houseteepar can be better than the daughtrr of his hrot iier or his sister ! Who could he have hving witii him that would less excite the suspicious of the evil minded ! It is not '•I f ;. |i. it X.J 1/2 THB DISCUSSION. It i I that thty fear irhat their flockt would My nr think of them— for they live among thvm, and are known by them, and they iear not for anjTthing they may imagine. But it i* to prevent you, and tiicli ai you, from having unjuit suspicioni. Our t>aviour, when he went to convert the woman of Samarin, would not allow hia didciplei to be present, leitt they should hear him when he tuid her that Hhe wa« the wife of nine huHbands ; I lay it ia only for fear of the easily- fxt:ited suspicions of such men as you, that the clergymen of our church live thus with their near relations. I now pass over rich •landerous insinuations and attacks, and I come to another of your aivumcnts. I ask youi even suppose there have been the abuses yoa advance, would it prove anything whatever against mo 1 We came bare to argue the unity, apostolicity and Catliolicity of our respec- tive churcnesi and he turns the question to their abuses. How did Robesnicrre and Voltaire in France upset the true religion and upread infiaelity, but in the way he has adopted — namely, in attack- ing the abuses which have crept into Ciiristianity by holding them up to ridicule and scorn. But though no doubt there have been aousaa in our church, I fearlessly tell him that there is no other church in the world in which there are fewer than in it. We do not tell the people that we will shoot them for money — we do not shed the hlood of the son of the widow for mammon, and spread disorder through the land for the sake of pelf. You have, unblush- ingly, Quoted to mu an act of parliament, and for what 'I Why to prove that we are heretics and apostuttfs. What do I care for an act of parliament passed by a set of fanatics who upnet all order and over-turned everything in the shape of order ? I care not for an an act of parliament but for the acts of Christ. But yours, as I told you, is a parliament church. It is supported by the state, and link- ed to it, and it could not stand without it. Ours is independent of the state : and God grqnt that it may continue so. For I tell you that all connection between church and state is, if not for adultery , at least adulteration, (cheers and hisses). You saw him when he spoke of apostacy. You saw how he wriggled and was shaken. He vhowed symptoms of his descent from ti.e old dragon. When he - crated. Go to the ISth chapter and Sd verse — ** And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they seat them away ;" and again, chapter H, verse 23d — *' And when they had ordained their elders in every church, and had prayed with :S;:f 174 THE DISCUSSIOJ. fanting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they belirv, ed." Now, Sir, are you not ashamed of yourself ? There are tiie scriptures directly in favour of fasting ; fasting was necessary m every ceremony, and yet you condemn it. Now, Sir, besides the<:e texts the history of the church proves that she had authority, and that authority was recognised. Martial, ApoUinarus, Montanus, and other heretics, were all condemned by her, as the councils show, Henoe you must acknowledge that her authority existed in earlier ages- Tell me what has put an end to it sinre ?— you can> not. Now f to the 1st Corinthians, chap. 9, verse 27, and to 2d Corinthians, chapter 6, verse 5, and several other texts which it would be but waste of time to quote. Now, then, I ask you once more was not the custom of fasting primeval with the apostles, or was it in the first, the second, the third, or the fourth century that it was introduced ? I have Eusebius here to show when if neces- sary. Remember, also, I beg of you, that it is said, ** Ud that hear-, eth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me." There is another thing of which I would remind you . The coun- cil of Jerusalem, the first that ever was held in the church, ordain- ed fasting, an I ordained it also in the name of the Holy Ghost. You receive t' ,'•;!. • I; ..'I I* ■ m .■)-^\ ttt!-v .-.^ff;- ,f.v. -■^ i -jT'- ?■;?(;•» -vv.-:'. :■:■'■<■- :■:> X-, .;it' ),<;>, ,.?;,,,.'-, Vl*T ::.:^.- -.4 '" ■•'^cI&X r* ^ .^i -fc. 4.d jr bellrvv J are tlie issary in rity, and [ontanus, councils ixisted in you car.^ »nd to 2d which it you once )08tles, or »tury that if neces- tliat hear-. }eth roe." rhe coun^ h, ordain* )ly Ghost. Dg. Why ■'■;»?> »■ •.. .-••V -.3 SsVUNTfl Day — TUKSDA\.-^(C0NT1NURD.) -.^ ^ .■ Rev, Mr, Gregg— .Now, ray Roman Cathoh'c brethren, I call on you, I entreat of you, not to ullgyv yourselves to be led into delu^ $ion by my reverend opponent. He has arguments to prove a thing that I never contended for, having Quiy reprobated the abuses. Ha Ulked with so much violence and heat that you must, ere this, be - convinced he has not the spirit of Jesus — the spirit of truth. He briugs forward things which I allow, and he calls upon me to ad<* mit either that the fast of Lent was !Bi\i iniititution of the church, op, to prove that it was not so, I allow it ; it is to be found in th« Book of Common Prayer ; and, with respect to the i^ubj^ct of i«i«ttestaniism was making rapid strides in that country, in the reign of Charles IX., the t^^en kirt^, they destroyed a number "^X.r SEVENTH DAY— TU«*DAY. 177 iimcus con* •f the iMkluippjr vietins «0 Sl Bartholomeur's day— th«pr drove mire religion out of France—aad hcQce the confusion wliich pure I^o- testant principles, mixed \^nth Popery, brought about, that Voltaire was enabled to deride religinn. He laughed at tiie pretended Po- pish miracles, and brought about thp.t state of things which scoucg. ed that country, and deprived the descendant of that very kiog, who was the cause of the murder of the ProU^stants, of lus owa head as a punishment indicted by God, for the persecution of hit people. ry well, mark that. Bonaparte gained power in France — he was disiodged, and the people suffered ten thousand times more than ever their ancastors had, many years before, inflicted on tha Hugonots. Bonaparte as you have seen* was put ouU-the Bour- bons were agaia placed on the throne — the present king's (formerl|r the Duke of Orleans) father was the principal person who hurried on the death of Louis XVI. Attend to tliat. Things went oa well to some time with lue old Bourbons, but the vengeance of God was not complete, it was coming to a close. The powers of Europe placed them on the throne, but another hurled him from it* «nd put tiie Duke of Orleans in his stead. Look at that puni«h> meat which was inflicted by the dtviae power on the descendants of him who was the exterminator of Protestantism, (a laugh). There, Sir, is your allusion to France for you. He tells me that I talk of abuse, and not of principle. Wliat are principles ? They meaft beginnings. The word comes from the Latin prindjm. Now, suppose the reverend gentleman took two seeds— .they are prinoi* pies — or two eggs ; and suppose we continued to argue that one egg was as good as the other— that the Popish e^ was as good as the Protestant egg. These are principles, (a laugh). J wia make jou , reverend Sir, hatcii your own eegs, and make youi* goalins come to penection, (a laugh). Then, Sir, the cockatrice wul dis- place the fire-flying serpent, hatclied by the seven-headed moaator in Kome, (a laugh). I was arguing also against celibacy, and he talks and makes a bluster, as if I did not allow that it was a bettor thing than if a man had a wife, if \t be his calling. But I deny k can be when he has not that gift. I say persons taking on them* Selves to keep a vow, without kno\ving for what, is an abomination. I shall now read some passages from a l^oi^k wh^ch ..^peaks of the notorious practice which existed. Jlev. Mr. Maglire — As a man of honour you are bound not to read tliat in the presence of do muny ladies. That subject has been already discussed, and this day lias been for anotlier purpose. Rev, Mr. Gre;gg — Then I will bow to the decision of tlie chaiF- men. *w jtiev. Mr. Na2»7x:i.e and B«v. Mr. IM'Namara tlven consulted for aehort time; after which, Rev. Mr. Nangle said — In ray opinion, Mr. Gregg is per£ectll|r in order, as the subject uny its eH^ects tVai!i facts which he i& going to £ta£e,itiE (perfectly legitimate fur hiai to do so, ^cheers and groans). Kev. Mr. M^Namaha — T submit to thw jn&eting whether he ia in order, or it he |ustiBud by the arrangeoBenta which have been «n- if % ■y 1 m tHE DISCUSStoV. ' .1 irii r B.< I i 1 ii H 1 4.1 tiered into tu foltovir thic coarse. Tt >at fixed for last Saturday, and disposed of ; and, in my opinion, he is departing from the original tuie. Rev. Mr. Gregg-^I appe.nl to you whether Saturday Was only iet aside to discuss Dens. Mr. M'Namara — Dens was not mentioned ; and, Sir, it is my 6uty, while I sit here, to protect the females who are present, from being insulted. Mt. NAJJGLil-^It rests with the speaker whether he will use im* t)roper language or not. Mr. Gregg — I shall not do so. (The reverend gentleman then read a passage which related to son:e abuses said to exist in Spain sometime or other, and so gross and filthy was the language used that several ladies left the room ; notwithstanding which hisreve- reticewent on to the er?d of the Chapter.) The common sense (con-> tinued the reverend gwntlemdn) of mankind is against you. If a man marry, and has a wife, it is a delusion to say that he cannot serve his God as well as if he had not. But it is a part of the sy s* tern of abomination which prevails in the church of Rome. You seem fond of perfecting the dreams in the Old Testament ; but. Sir, it is an unfortunate protection, to eay that under certain cir-^ cumstances a man may excuse himself, That will not go down with the public i it will pUli dowrt your chapels over your heads, [ laugh* terji " They speak evil v,f the things they know .lot, and corrupt themselves." in all these things we can easily perceive ihat God will punish the abominations of i . .■ Mr. Maguiue — This is keeping your word ; it is just like you, though— Mr, GhBGG — An attempt has been made to stop my mouth, but what have I to care for 1 If there was corruption in our church in Latimer's time. Popery is the mother of it. Rev. Mr. MAGUtRE»-.You will judge, my brethren of every de- nomination, though your feelings must have been hurt by the ob- servations that have falleh from both sides during the discussion, who has been the cause of that. I say thai* he is the cause, and now I beg have to say that lam surprised — very much surprised — at the conduct of my friend <^for I call him so, and I do say, that notwithstanding this and my previous discussion, there is no man in the world whom I would call my enemy). I say that I am very much surprised at his conduct in bringing forward this subject, when he knows th&t my hands are tied, and that 1 can say nothing on it while the ladies are present, for I would rather lose every argu- ment than for a moment oflend the delicacy of the ladies present, fcheers and groans]. I tell you. Sir, there are hundreds oflatiles and gentlemen here who go to confession, and who know well the nature of that tribunal, and of the examination of the priests. He admits the legality and propriety of confession. He says that his church admits it, and so she does. He says that the penitent must come before him. He tells us that in his investigation into the state of the penitent he would do so and so, and that if he saw he was worthy he would give him absolution. I ask him how would he u "^1 SEVENTH DAY -TUESDAY. ^ \cnovr whether the penitent is worthy or not if he does not htlit all hi3 sins 1 Let him ntiswcr that. I ask him how will he be able to excuse the duties of his holy office if he does not know the condi- tion of him wlio comes to him ? The Catholic mothers, and fathers, and brother?, and sisters, and sons, and daughters, know well how we excuse it. Oh, he rings tlie clmnges often with regard to the mothers, and husbands, and wives and daughters. He imagines that by his filthy language he will effect a feeling of jealousy among them that will prevet:*: them from allowing those under their care from going to the sacred tribunal to be cleansed of their sins. Bat I tell you, Sir, they are laughing at you in their sleeves. They know our conduct. They are witnesses of it. They hare expe- rienced it, and they know how pure and how sacred is the confes- sional which they frequent ; and I tell you, — though I am sure you must know it already, — that the slightest impropriety — the least suspicion of the occurrence of anything like what you have hidted at in the confessional, would have the clergyman suspended for life, never to be restored. You must know that there is a bull making that decree, and it was a cruel bull to us. For we know that you have bribed persons [I do not charge it upon you personallyj — we know that bribery has been practised to make persons watcn us in our confessionals, and we know how tnasily a falsQ tale might be gdt up which would subject us to perpetual suspension. Not the slightest fact has been proved against us, and yet we must be attack- ed in the calumnious manner in which you have attacked us. We are subjected to much the same trial that Atha.ia^ius was subjected to when the Arians bribed a woman to enter by his window to tempt him. But the saint screamed so violently upon seeing her, taking her at first for a spirit, that his attendants were alarmed, and having entered the room before she could escape, she confessed the whole plot and acknowledged who were the persons that instigated her to it. J'his was always the conduct of the heretics. They ever insidiously attacked the church, and they ever will continue to do so. Yet they scy they are inspired. Martin Luther said he was inspired, and Dr. Gregg sa)'s he is inspired, (hisses and cheers.) I told you what was the saying of St. Polj'carp to him. It is related in Eusebius, who wrote when the church was fresh and beautiful, and when you acknowledged that the purity of her doctrines was unsullied. We are there told that upon Marham asking the saint did he acknowledge him— -Polycarp replied, " I acknowledge this to V e the first born of the devil" (hisses and cheers). Now, I say Unto you, my friend, that though yovi are not the first born of Mar- ham ; yet you have got a little pedigree of your own, which may be traced back to him. You are not, to be sure, a direct and lineal, but then you arc a collateral descendant of his, (great hissing and cheering). Now, let me ask you, what right had Polycarp to give the name heretic to Marham if he had not the authority of the church to do so. You yourself told me that he was a heretic, and that yours is the true church. O, holy church whose primitive bi- shops Were apostates iTom our churcli ! ! — i true church that got everything it has from Antichrist !! ! — hisses and cheers.— And that 1 11, '1 51' 180 '*THfi mscussioN. fvhien Pope Piiif — .the -A-Bttchriit ! — was confined a prisoner by N«> toieon, Me reltsaiied him from Iris confti^einent, and gloried in giving im liberty ! ¥ou may guess, my friends, what sort of a reh'gion that is. You may see how consistent it is, and you may see what « Fusbos is my reverend friend, (laughter and hissing). I woader how he would get out of the charge of apostacy after all this. You take. Sir, your bishops^nd priests from u?, and you never consecrate «or ordain them again, [** no, no," from Mr. Gregg]. Why, Sir, I aay it is the fact. You never do give iicvt' orders to any priests that may go over from us to you— and they, I am sure, bring nothing ■new with them ; therefore, Sir, the ordination and the pi iests of Jlntichrist are good enough for you, (no, from Mr. Gregg; cheering and hissing). Again be talks of Voltaire and Uousseau in France, ■«nd he^ives us along dissertation on that rvoint, much to my satis- iiMUion,>for it leaves me the less to answer. Now, why did I meu- ItMi Voltaire? To show that the very arg tmenls which you have used against us derived from alleged abuses, nere used by Voltaire, and Eousbe^, and Diderot, against Christianity. Ob^ but be gives Another turn, and he tells us he has littlu pity for poor Charley dix — jpoor Charles X. — because he happened to be the next in name to rihe king that perpetrated the ma»sacre of St. Bartholomew. Now, ,1 will not say whether he mistook the king or nol — fur it is in theo- Jogy 4ik)ne that J claim to overcome him — but I Avill tell Ivim one thing, tltat the moKsacre of St. Bartholomew, (wliicb, ho^rever, God 4brbid I should defend) was precotled by tlie murder of 1,700 Ca- tholics. Y'ou, Sir, have admitted that your church persecuted. Therefore even if you proved that our church also persecuted it would be b«it a dead ball. But you have proved no siicii thingv •ftd I utterly deny it, though I admit, und have already admitted, tliat Catholics have persecuted. You will not venture to say that because the persecuting persons were Catholics the Catholic church Approved of their persecution. 1 told yo\x that it was Henry's de- sire to be married to Anne Boieyn that caused the Reformation. I :tu4d you that it was his disgust at the Popish distinction tha>, told him he might marry his brothers wife thut caused it. Now, I ask 9WU,Sir, is it or is it not lawful to marry a bi other's wife when the marriage is ratum sed no7i consmnmatam ? Y'ou know that at the time of his marriage to Catlierine Arthur was not sixteen years «fage. You know that lie died suddenly, and that Catherine her- »elf> befwe the parliament, appealed io Henry if she was not a vir- (gin when he married her. If it be wrong to marry a brother's wife, yoM have a Fellow in Tri^nity College who is married to the wife of lits brother, (shame, shame, from INir. Gregg). No, Sir, it is not a •haiBse. I do not want to cast any odium on the man. I have net •kained him, nor am I about to do so. God forbid that I should at> ^ck Any oiH! who is not present to defend himself. I merely men- tioned the fact to ask you, if it be wrong, why, then, does yoiw «hurch permit it 1 And if you permit it, why do you blame us for Aillowing it also under certain circumstances .' Arthur and Cathe- rine were nurried when he was not sixtecii. U*i died suddenly be- fore the marriage was consummated. Slie ivas then married to ""T-'Sh SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. mf Henry, who never complained of the marriage tilt he «atr Aime Boleyn, and wished to raarr? her, which, according to Luther, }r» ntighi do if he chose, (" no,'** frnm Mr. Grciig.) What ! .Sir, d» you deny thot (^iither gave PMiip, the L livd^ravo of Hesse CastcJ, liherty lo ma^'ty two wI.cp 'i Why, 1 cnr. show yo'i from hi« ow» works that he tiid. Y(^u quoted from a stl of aathora pataugea r»i lative to a meeting in Spain wilh regurd to confession. What care I for these anthurs ? You know yourself that they aie uut coDsi« dered fuithworthy even by Protestants, uiid that they are alwaya clajsed with Fra Paulo, and others of liis clai»«, who have writtea nothing but a collection of abominable lies. I sliowed you, sir, from the scriptures, that Christ in:>tituted tlie foi^ivtiiesg of sins. He said, " Whatsoever sins you shall loose on earth sliall he h)oscd in heaven, a ease to the physician, in order that medicine should pro^rly be pre- scribed. Now, I will come to another point. You spoite of Louia Philippe. Now, I am not going to speak of him in his absence ; nor will I institute a comparison between him and Charles X. Ha talks of hatching my own eggs. Now, I know that ihis is an alhi- sion to a gentleman to whom i was bound by the strictest ties of friendship, and whose talents far outwt;j;hs your's and mine. Bat, notwithstanding the strict and warm feelings of friendship th«t we r g between us, that gentleman, 1 am sorry to say, has been caught in a trap, and has been induced to take a certain part in connection with this discussion which it is not for me now to mention ; nor -mil 1 blame him for what he has done, ior I believe he is not pr cwBt ftnd even if he were, I know that he could not defend himself. It would then be highly unworthy of me to speak of him in wiy way but respectfuily and with decorum. But I say to you, sir, il I atcli ray own eggs, they are those of the church, and the chic s of them were in existence for 800 years that your church was not known or dreamed of; like yours, thev have not been brought into the world only since the days of 1-uther and Calvin. But no.v I will be done with this point, and I will bring you back again to ♦he holy father of your church — noble minded Luther. I lefcr you to the Jena edition of his works, tome the Gth, pag-c- 480, I hvive it here m his favourile German — you can read it if you liks ; and I have it in Latin, a» translated by his disciple, Jnstis Jonas ; and (hare is not bin;* so remakahle in the com nenceinent of the reformation, as ihfit this work should have thus been preserved to plant the mark of Antichrist upon his churrh, as if with the finger of God, by making hinthus display his folly hy acknomedging his coiifercnccci with the devil. You, Sir, I say, are a follower of lat THE DISCUSSION. >; the man who wa« instructed by tho devil [no, front Mr. Qregg-], and I tell you that ihe finger of God is visible in this ncknow-. ledgment of his evil iiuthor, and has left you no excuse. Here, then, ara the words of (he man himself, in the year 1584. He then read several passages from Lu(bcr*s works to the effect that his gospnl v;oiiid prevail, so much so that in two years, no popery, no Popish priesi, no nuns, no Pope, no mnsa no Popish ceremonies ^x'i!l b'e in tho world). There's a pro, phet for yiou. (He rend on olher pussnges to the effect that the pious man never sinnelh — that Christ has declared that his entire body and blood are contained under one species-^ that the decalogue was given to (he Jew^i, and was not in- tended for Pagans or Christians). There's for you — so we need not observe the commandments 1 [He went on to the effect I hat we should abstain from sin, and from good woiks for that all good works are mortal — that it was impossible to abstain from sin, for the Scripture tells us we are slaves to the devil — that if he was blamed for obscenity, he would say that he should obey necessity — that this buisness [i. e. the reformation ] was not begun on God's account, nor would it ever end on God's acoount — again per s(zpe an vere loquor neene neacio — that if Peter and Mary and Christ wei'e upon earth they would prostrate themselves before him and acknow, ledge him a God. Now, I ask, he said, can this be the religi. on of God, of Christ, of the apostles, which had such a founder, and which, for 1500yeats after the death of our Saviour was never heard of? I challenged him to show any church that ever professed the Articles. He says that (he number is noth, ing. Well, I defy him to name any that professed the princi, pies contained in them. Luther says (hat the true gospel was never preached till his days, not even in the days of the apostles, and that for 1000 years there was not a single true believer in the woild. The Homilies say that for 800 years and more [they say that to come as near as possible to Lu( her] there was not a single human being in the world wbi) was not sunk in the most dark and dismal idolatry, hatefu! to Christ and damnable to man. I will.now give him a proof from the coun. cils that weie assembled that there never was a heresy which was not condemned by the church. He then gave a list of all the councils, with the Popes that precided, and the here, sies thai, were condemned, from the first council of Nice, in the (year) 325, to the second council of Lateran in the year 1 12^. That council, said he, was held for the purpose of raising an outcry to banish the infidels from the Holy Land ; and was that an unholy work 1 I am sprry I cannot go on to tb« council of Trent. The half hour concl tided here, and it being two o'clock the meeting lepavated. -.VJH-' Here, 1584. to the in two lO mosa } a pro, cl llmt ed ihnt ecies-.* \ not in. -so Wtt n to the [ woika ssible to aves to )uld sny I. e. the would it •c loquor ive upon acknow, le religi, founder, our was rch that is nolh* princi^ spel was aposilep, believer nd more sr] there not iiiink irist and le coun- y which ist of all \e here, of Nice, in the irpose of Land ; inot go :Iock the n -^ . ^ SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY, (continued.) •■ At eleven o'clock Mr. Gregg called upon Mr. Maguirb (o proceed with ihe discussion. It may be observed that the in. tercjt in this extraordinary controversy has not, in the least, abated, nuiwiihstanding the length of time that it is going on. The round room of the Rotunda was densely crowded before eleven o'clock, and himdreda were congregated outside the building. IVJr. Maguirb proceeded as follows :— My friends, before commencing the great work of the day— for this is njy day of attack — I shall make a few observations upon the gross wnd the scandalous mnUer contained the last half hour's speech of my reverend opponent yesterday, and upon the grossnessand malice generally with which he has thought proper to attack monks, nuns, friars, priests, and religious houses ; and ia doing so I shall refer him to his own Protestant historians, to show him that more base, ft\lse, and calumnious charges were never made in the world than those mad^ against the GatlfO? lies and religous houses about the time of the Reforrn»tion, Here the reverend gentleman read extracts from various Protes, tant authorities to show the falsehood of those accusations. He then proceeded — I wonder the reverend gentleman did not bring forward Maria Monk; but her lies and slanders are too recent ; there are living witnesa^es to prove their falsehood, and it would not suit his purpose to quote her as an authority. In a couple of centuiies hence, it may answer in the hands of some assailant of the church of Christ, but at present i(; •would not do, although it is equally as true and quite as dis- gusting as the^authoritieis which he has quoted. The whole foun, dation foi all the abominable slanders with which the Rev, Mr. Gregg has so long occupied the time of this meeting, rest upon a vile pamphlet entitled " Henry Stephen's Wonders of the World." There is his authorly for you, gentlemen ! ''Stephen's Wonders of the World !" and wonderful enough are the stories contained in it ; but not one of them is true. la Burnet's History some of those falsehoods are set out ; but |)a does not tell you upon what authority he gives them ; and Fuller, who wrote upon the subject, tells you that Burnet himself did not believe them, although he put them into his history. He laid aside truth, and justice, and charity, whicl| he should have strictly observed, with regard to memories of men who were gone to their account ; and Battersey, in com. menting upon this history, and examining the grounds upon which it was given, says they are wholly unworthy of crc^ dit. There is no foundation for them ; the \vriter gives no authority ; and thereupon let us lay aside all such storip.4 ll.^^' ;i. (t';:i' ' iiiii.lii'i' 184 THE DISCUSSION. I( ': about religious houses, priests, nuns, &c. I can rend you, Sir, a host of respectnble Protestant writers, and other compeieiit witnesses, all acknowledging that there is neither truth nor charily in those extracts which Mr. Gregg has thought proper to read. Again, Thorndike, in speaking of them, refers to the passage in Timothy where the .nnostle sayfs that heed should 11'^ Ik) given to fables and genealogies without end, which mi. .>r questions ruiher than the edification of God, which is in \ ti. Such, my friendt), is the authority upon which n>v opponent has brought forward his charges against thf tholic church. Next, my friends, I will say a word al;n question of npostacy, and then have done with it fur ond mark me well, my friends, in this part of my case. Gregg says that my church is Antichrist, and he makes ilie acknowledgment then that either his church or mine must be the apostacy ; and I have given such irrefragable proofs that he was overwhelmed and stood in confusion. He was not able to show the time that my church apostatized ; but I showed him that it was impossible she could ever apostatize, nnless Christ had broken his promise to her. i shall again refer him to scripture. In Matthew it is said that when our Savi- our was sitting on Mount Olivet the disciples came to him privately* and said to him. ** When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of thy coming and the consum. mat ion of the world 1 And Jesus answering, said to them, "Take heed that no man seduce you, and many will come in my name, saying I am the Christ, and they will seduce many." And our Saviour adds, " That his church is the pillar and the ground of truth, and that he shall be with it all days, even to the consummation of the world. " The church was not seduc. ed — she could not be seduced — she was the city on the mount; but many of her members were seduced, and went out of her. Luther and Calvin, and the whole spawn of locusts were se. duced— *they were seduced by their owd foul and ungovernable passions, and they went out — they apostatized — the church cast them off, and they founded a new religion, and preached new doctrines. So much for the apostacy. The Saviour says, " I will be with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.*' At the consummation of the world shall come the time of Antichrist. There is my demonstration, and I am done with the subject for ever. I now come to the subject of the day. I must eay that I have frequently argued, since this discussion began, that Protsantism was without principles, and that no Protestant, according to the articles of his church, could make an act of faith, and that it was totally out of the power of a Protestant to prove that he had a true copy of the scriptures, or that there was a true copy of it in the world. I atikyou now again, Mr. Gregg, how do you know, or how aumdmm SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. \9§ will you prove to me that the Bible i^ not falsely uunslated — U'heilieryoiir translations be honest or not — whether it has not been falsely and maliciously interpolated by the wretched hands of the monks and priests with whom it was for so many ageu, and to whom the world is indebted for the preservation of (he scriptures 1 Here the Reverend gentleman read Doctor Greer's answer to Doctor Milner upon the canonicity of the Scriptures. He then cori'uned — How now. Sir, will you show me by your churr^.i, <«• ' any authority upon earth, (hat the scriptures are '. > f;r ^>ni e word of Qod, and that they have been preserved in lj. ihei. c i jginal integrity? Doctor Mil. ner asked him to prove the scriptures, and he answered as Mr. Gregg will answer, and as every Protestant is bound to answer, let the scriptrues prove themselves. Prove the scriptures by (he scriptures. Now, 1 tell you, Sir, that the scriptures do not prove their own inspiiation. There is not a single passage througout the whole Bible which says that all the scriptures are inspired. How then, Sir, will you prove them, if you do not trace up (heir safekeeping through the church to the very hands of the apostles. But I will show the malice, and ro' guery, and villainy of the first Protestants who attempted n translation of the Bible. I will snow you the base and wilful perversions which ihey have made in the word of God. Here, (o wit, the celebrated text about (he Holy Trinity, where it ie said (here are three who bear witness in heaven. Upon this passage I he Unitarian argues against the divinity of Christ; and how. Sir, will you meet the Unitarian, and argue with him upon this text when you say you have no proof of the canonicity or integrity of the scriptures but your own assertioni There was more roguery, villainy, and malice exercised in the translation of your Protestant Bible than ever was known in the whole world ; and the higher you go up the more fraud you will find to have been practised — the more you will observe the re- trograde motion — the more. Sir, will Protestants be astonished at the work of those impious hands which have perpetrated fluch blasphemous outrages upon (he scnptures of God These men say ihcy give you the gospels, ihey recommend them to your perusal ; they are to be read by all the world ; whilst at the same lime they have filled them Wiih fraudulent and wilful errors, wholly opposed to the letter and the spirit of God's holy word* My Protestant friends, I would not wish to wound your feelings. And I am sure I will not do so by bringing before you the fraud nxid blasphemy with, which the apostles of your church have dealt with the Bible. But I invplore and beseech of you to reflect upon those daring per. versions of the word of God — lo open your eyes to the truth, and, havingheard and seen those facts, to judge for yourselves. WhcD the firbt tarnslalion of the Protestant Bible took place, "f: ft mm •>i;.':ii(M IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) 1.0 I.I m WIS mm m Hi lU u IL25 III 1.4 ■ 2.2 IllllJi^ Photographic Sciences (Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STRIET WiBSTIR,N.Y. 14SM {716)872-4503 '^ ■^■^^^^■^ 'V.^;/'-' " '■'."■ ■ / ''"■ : ■-■■"■ " « * ,k 4' / t. ■■»- f ' ■ :_ ■ ■ * 5- ■ 'i-x . "7i-v 4 ■■■■ 166 tHE DISCUSSION. If V4 the errors Were so glowing and so palpable that they alarmed the first reformers ; and in another translation which followed some of those errors were corrected. There have been up-* wards of eight thousand corrections in the Protestant Bible from the time it was first published up to the present time, and there are twenty-nine corrections yet to be made. Mind, my friends, I do not talk of errors arising from the construction of language, or the difficulty of certain texts ; but [ talk of wilful and gross perversions of the iptrord of God by these early refer, iners, for their own purposes. Heie the reverend gentleman lead the names of some of the translators of (he Protestant B>ble, amongst which were Lulhcr, Calvin, Coverdale, Baza^ ZuingUus, Walton» &c., and then read extracts from the works of each, all condemning each other's edition of the Bible, pro. nouncing it hellish and blasphemous. Calvin said Luther's transf lation was the wcik of the devil. Luther condemns Calvin, Cal. vin Beza, Beza Zuinglius, Zuinglius Coverdale, Coverdale all thti othersj but each and all maintaining that his own was the correct version, or that it wa^, as Luther said what was best suited for the purposes of the reformation. Every man was then, as some of our fanatics now pretend to be, wise in the scrips tiires; so that Mr^ Walton, the celebrated author of the Pollys japiot remarked that it was once said by Anctarctus^ that there could not he seven wise men found in Greece, but that it might then he said that there could not be seven fools found, for that all pretended to have a perfect knowledge of the scrip;, tures, WhicD, above all things else in the world, were most difficult to understand. Here Sir, I produce your own writers, who acknowledge that it would have been better that the scriptures were never published, with the errors and gross per. versions which the reformers were guilty of with regard to the translation of the Bible. (Here the reiercnd gentleman read flrom Whittaker and others). Now, my friends, I come to some of the frauds of Luther. He acknowledged that the word " alone" was not to be found in the text of Sf. Paul, but he inti-oduced it, and had it so in the Bible, and when spoken to and told that it would give a handle to the Papists to attack his doctrines- he said, no matter about the Papist, they Won't undersand it, for Papist and ass are synonymous (a laugh)« This infamious attempt of Luthei to pervert the word of God is to bo found in the 5th tome of his works. Hear what Zuinglius says of Luther, I will read it for you, my Protestant friends. Zuinglius was one of the founders^ of your church as well as Luther. Hear, my friends, what he says— "Luther was a foul and wilful corrupter of ihe word of God. He has so perverted the scriptures that we are much ashamed of him for corrupting the word of God in such a manner." Tliis will be found in his book De Sacerdotibus, Tom. 2. On the SEVENTH DAY— TlJRSDAY v.-; 'r.-:. . Other hanlc^^i> Luther condemned the translations of Zuing]iu»t and I will give you an extract of what hcisays upon that subject. There was a printer at Amsterdam, named Proconius, who brought a copy of Zuinglius^s Bible to Luther for examination, and h« told him to take it back to his master, Zuinglius, and to tell him that h« y ^ had wilfully mistranslated the holy scriptures, and that it was meU/jfs^f^- false and corrupt. He was there paying him in his own coin. Ano* /^ t.U Til rJ T» : ^^..i.:__ -/• r«-i. •_»_ » i-..: -.i ^ 6 b IK ther of the reformers, Bcza, in speaking of Calvin's translation, thus describes it after this fashion :-^" Calvin makes the text to jump up and down, not only grossly perverting it, but adding to it wherever it suits his purpose." He then goes on to point out various places where these additions and perversions were mad«. Here the rev«' ly reformers and translators of the Bible) where all accused audi other of the perversion and corruption of the text. He theft pift»« ,i^ ceeded— ^But what apology do you think has Luther given for add- L i ^ r% ing to the text, that is, introducing a word that is not to be found ift J^O^'^ St. Paul at all ? <* Why," said he, *< am not I an apostle as well as St. Paul, and if lie wrote the whole text, have not I a right to add one word at least, or, fur that matter, as many words as I like," (a laugh). There was Luther for you ; but do you think any one believ- ed him that h^ was just as good as St. Paul? No, my mends-. Now |f| I have here Parker's edition of the Bible, where he quotes the 6th | commandment ; but I will not mention what is expressed in it in the presence of ladies ; and I trust that since I began this ditcu*>- sion, notwithstanding all the provocation I received from my oppo- nent, that I have not made use of any language circulated to oflTend decency. J should pass this over> and point your attention to a few of the glaring errors and perversions which those men have in^ troduced into the Bible. Here they are in tlie editions printed in the years 1566, 1567, 1577, 1579: and mark me, all these differ from the present translation, and every translation coming nearer to that which is approved of and sanctioned by the Catholic church. Here, then, in the first place is "ye" substituted for *trary to the letter and spirit of the scriptures, then you may bi of a triumph in quoting them against us as authority. Would the reverend gentleman think it fair if X found sdme strange concessions in Dr. Milner, that I should quote them ugainst his churcli ? No, my friends, I would do no such thing ; Lgo to his church far my authorities to show her spirit find her practices, and I go to the Scriptures to show that that spi- rit and those practices are opposed to God's word. That is the way in which I go to wirk j that is the manner in which I proceed, wliilst, on the contrary, my opponent is wasting his strength and rrittering away his time in quoting authorities against me for what I, nor 'Miy human being, probably, care not one pin. He should not waste his valuable strength in acting in this way ; he is assail- ing the chucrh of England, and I promise him he has a tough job in his hands, and that all his strength, and much mere besides, will not be «We t« shake her in the slightest degree. He says that I stand up as th« champion for Protestantism in ghbo but I stand up for the church of England and her glorious religion. Ke quotes Lu- ther Bgaiast Calvm, «nd Zuinglius against Beza ; and shows strife fiiHj contentions and quarrellings among the early reformers, about wbicb w« doB t care a straw, I put it to you if 1 show perversions ■asuii fmTl SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY- ]8» of the scriptures by the Greek church, and quarrelling and rlisscn- tions amongst the founders of it, would you deem it fair that T should quote them against you 1 No, but if I did so, you would have Mr. Maguire glad to see me at such a job ; he would be glad to see me running a way from the point at issue, and I must admit that I am glad to see him at such a job. He has got a certain task in hands, and why does he not stick to it, and not take up another. Now, if I gave a man a pair of shoes to make, and that instead of them he made a pair of breeches, would you not think him a stupid silly fellow f But, Sir, keep to the question. You cannot retreat from the fleecing that 1 will give you. You talked of errors in the Protestant translation of the Bible ; but see, my friends, what the whole turned out to be; no more than this— 'that there were errors, and that we corrected them ; that is something. He stated that the farther you go into Protestantism the more perceptible was the retrograde motion ; and that there was nothing but fraud and i-upa« city at the head of it. No doubt the farther you go up to the head of Protestantism the nearer you come to the tail of Popery. Those who were the first Protestants came out of Popery, and it might fairly be expected that they should bring along with them much of its darkness and its vices. You call them apostates, but they came out from you on account of your crimes and abominations.' You are the apostates, and I verily believe in my soul that every Roman Catholic in these kingdoms, particularly every priest, is a rank apos- tate, (loud cheers on one side, and hisses on the other). My friends, I speak to you in affection ; but I am bound to speak to you the truth. If I find u man in a fever or an ague I am bound to repre- sent to him the true state of his condition, and although he may rise up in anger against me, 1 am nevertheless bound to tell him the truth, and if I tell you the truth donU count me an enemy; I ask Mr. Maguire does he understand this text of Scripture—" Whoso- ever sh^l fall on the stone shall be broken, but he on whom the stone shall fall, shall be ground to powder.'* ^Will you tell me. Sir, the meaning of that ? but before I tell you the meaning I shall tell you a story. Dean Swift, at one time, who was a wit in his way, was told that a tailor, who wished to separate from the church, wanted to speak to him. Ver^ well, said the Dean, show him in. The tailor was introduced to his presence, and he told him that he wished to separate from his church, and gave him various reasons for doing so. " Well," said the Dean, " you are a surprising man Have you ever read the Apocalypse V " I have,** said the tailor, " Well," said the Dean, ** do you rewember having read there of an angel who stood with one foot on the land and the other on the sea V* " I do," said the tailor. " Well," said the Dean, ** would you be able to tell me how much cloth it would take to make a pair of breeches for that angel V There is a question for you ; answer it if you can, and then I'll answer your cavils against religion. It is in this way that Mr. Maguire puts his questions, and declare that he will proceed no further until they are answered. But I put questions on the scripture to Mr. Maguire, but I hardly could ex- pect he would answer thena. If I wanted to be instructed in thf J; IIM) THE DISCUSSION. 1 r m ■oripturet, it ii not to the Romish church I would go for tnstruc* tion. But if I wanted to be instructed about holy water, and bead!i, and clay, and such things, I might go there. I will come now to an explanation of this passage. The man who stumbles in his walk is the man who sins, and the man who sins is he who falls against the rock. The just man may sin and rise again, but not without being broken and suiferinp^ for that sin. But the man who shall go out from the truth of Christ Jesus is he upon whom the rock shall f4ll and grind him to powder. I tell him this text in Daniel has re- ference to Popery, You have apostatized and gone out from the faith, and I tell you when the storm of Christ Jesus thunders f^ainst Popery then it i^ that those who are members of the apos- tacy shall repent in vain-^and my prayer to God is, that the Kev. Mr. Maguire, and those who think with hitn, may repent in time. I would put my hands under your feet to save your souls. It is not by single texts of Scripture that we are to discover the word of God — no attempt of apostacy can corrupt tlie text, and what have errors in the translation, with regard to certain pasages, to do with the letter or the spirit of the Scriptures. If the text of John, to which the Rev. Mr. Maguire alludes, were out of the Bible, it would make no value whatever, and if it were out^ the doctrines of the Trinity would still be the same. He talks of errors which are no more than verbal, but it is nut a verbal consideration of the Scrip- tures which leads us to a knowledge of them. I really did not know what the reverend gentleman was to be at to-day. I did not know that he was to have attacked the Protestant translation of the Scrip- tures, and I am not prepared with documents, to show that the Ca- thelic translations have been most foul and abominable, and mon- ptrouily corrupted. To-morrow I shall be prepared, and I shall make the hair of your heads stand on end. I will show you when they intruducsd holy water, saint and image-worship, with all their other abominations, into the Scripture. I know some of my friends whom I see opposite will assist me in procuring these translations, fhere the reverend speaker looked over anxiously towards where the Rev. Mr. Nolan, li^te Catholic priest, was seated). He talks of er- rots in our Bible — but look at our version and you will see various words printed in italics which shows that there is no correspond- ing term for them in the original, and so it was with Luther when he made a tronslatir^o of the Bible — he believed in his soul that if he brought the sense v ith him, mere verbal alterations did not sig- ptfy. There is an old proverb, and though 1 don't pay much regard to proverbs, I believe them when they speak the truth — hatid decit ^od subintelligiiHr. I don't want to say that you have not cause to cavil with those things ; but they have nothmg to do with doc- trine. Did you see, my friends, when hie came to read his sixth com- mandment, what delicacy he evinced ; he would not read it because the ladies wfre present. Oh, « the spotless, pure Maguire," as the ballad saySk But although he was too delicate to read the com- mandment for you, he did not tell you that his church left out the secotHl commandment in the catechism-— which second command* mtni Mjrs <• thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing that is in ""•■'" t^o, SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY. 191 heaven above or in the earth beneath, or orihose tiling* that are under " the earth — thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them, for I am' the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, and visiting the iniquities of the fntherg unto the fourth generations of them that hate me and she^VT ing mercy unto thousands, in them that love me, and keep my com- ' mandments." He did not tell you that his church mutilated the terrible commandments of God, and left this out of the catechism from which youth is instructed. That omission is the reason that he has as the sixth what' we have as the seventh commandment : he would not read for you that commandment, but I ask him did not God's justice flash before him as a snord, when he read-r-<«Thojo who take away from the prophecies of this book, their names shal) be taken out of the book of life,'' Although this would seem to re- late directly to the prophecy of the Apocalypse, it relates also to ^l| the scriptures. But Mr. Maguire, by showing errors in our trans- lation, which have nothing to do with our doctrines, is endeavoring to turn the question into an Infidel question, by casting doubts ox\ the Bible. The question he seems to raise is, is the Bible the fioolf of God ? instead of meeting the arguments which I raise against the corruptions and crimes of his church. He tells me we can't prove the Bible, because we separated from the dross and corrup- tions of the llomish church, and flung off thr husks. Will hn te\\ me that the gold and silver brought by the Israelites out of Egypt was all hay and stiibble, or thjit it was not pure because it came out of that land of cringe an4 corruption ? We have our apostolic bishr ops and our clergy — we have had our faithful witnesses, vvh(Jkep| the faitli alive for ages ; and I believe that it has been by some for- tuitous circumstance, by the special interference of God, who blind? cd the eyes of tlie Roman Catholics and the friars, that the Bible was preserved to us. I come now to your liber eapurgutoriusj for I like to be running into your rat holes after Popery. I ^ill show something out of this. Here the reverend gentleman commenced reading a chapter on celibacy, when his half hour ended. The Rev. Mr. Maguirb then proceeded— Now, my friends, I ask you candidly has my reverend opponent adduced one single ar- gument during the last half hpur 1 You will perceive that the quesr tion which I proposed tp hjm was this — Was there any principle in the Protestant religion by which a Protestant could satisfy a Jew, Infidel, Atheist, or Pagan, of the canonicity of the scriptures 1 Wa^ there any means left to him under Heaven by which he could prove that the Bible was the book of God 1 And if he could not prove that, was there anything left to him but to return to that church in whose possession it has been from the days of the Apostles to the - present time, or else to reject it altogether ? Did he grapple vyith the question — did he say one word about it at all 1 Has he given you any proof beyond his own mere ipse dixit that the Bible is the book of God ? Again I say, let him answer that if he can, and let him bring all Trinity College to his assistance. When I quoted Protestant authority in support of my arguments, and Protestant clergymen, and bishops too, he turns round and throws them al| pviprbogfd an^ says lie floes not c^re pne straw for the opinionjj of th§ ■J Ir h 1 "i i w ^x V 1 ) ^ \i f II 1 <\> i 1 t '1,; 1 t 1 'i ' 1 '; I J I I fit 1 n'r 1 Vi 1 1 '1! >V''! \\ *; ' 'il I'll 4 19t THE DISCUSSION. whole) of them. With him thoy were all as bad as the Rev. Mr. Burgh* I gavothe authority of a man in Trinity College, u. man high in tiM church, and at present enjoying a iivins under tliu churohi the Hev. Dr. Groer. But he tcllx you that he does not rare a pia for him. Why, he cares for no authority that tells agajniifc him» whether they be Catholic or Protestant, because, forsooth, he bath the Spirit.. He refers to our Index Expurgaiorius ; but it would be well for his church if she had an Index Kxpur^atorius— i if^ she watched with greater care over doctrine and discipline. Why, if she even did that, there would be something in the shope of au- thority to refer to— some barrier beyond which the ranting fanatics could not gOf— some standard against whicli every man could not raise his private opinion. But, no ; no matter what any man says — no. matter what strange doctrines or absurdities arc introduced — your watchers on the walls of Jerusalem are dumb dogs. You say nothing against anything but Popery, and after all, what arc we the wAnse-T>here we are strung and well, notwithstanding all the as- . sauUa that have been made on us. You said that I had a tough job ip.aMailing.the Protestant church. Well, I shall leave it to the public to judge if you will not have full as much to do In ussailing the Popish church. But come, Sir, I want to bind you to princi- plee^ even now, at the eleventh hour. Will you answer the ques- tioQ' I proposed to you in my last address 1 Will you try y'our hwid ai it again ? Will you show the Unitarian, the Jew, or the Infidel, or Pagan, how you prove the integrity and truth of the word; of Gpd 1 Will you even attempt to do it, or can- didly acknowledge thot- you are unequal to the task, and if yo\x oncOi make that acknowledgment, then the whole ofyourcnurch iiiioruinbled; into dust. You said that you would quote a passage fitom= Milncr, which would tell against the Romish church; I dare you. to do it. Sir. Mi|ner, nor any other Catholic ecclesiastic, ne* vcr. wrote anything against the doctrines and canons of the Catho' lie church ; if they did, they were no longer of her communitv*— they; were expelled froai her bosom. Hut you and the swarm of lo- custs that>are. gone out; from her, would rend the seamless garment, and;create apostacy, schism, and disscntions. Now, Sir,. this is my day ofrattack ; and I am, sorry that you have, forced me to the ex- positions which l now find necessary to make. You say that you are not pre})rred to defend the attack until to-ntprrow. Now, this is-lbe only solid truth you uttered since you, commenced this day. I know. Sir, you are not prepared to make a defence ; but what is more, I can tell you that you never will. Now, Sir, throughout the w)>oic range that you took in attacking my cliurch, did I ever tell you that I.wa? not prepared to defend her ? Now, Icall upon the PN>testant gentlemen who are present, to not be thrown off their guard by your maneeuvring, and evading the questions at issue. Nbw, my Protestant friends — and why should you not be my friends, for we all worship the same God, and I never uttered a personally offensive word to Protestant or any other on religious grounds, and ifi am obliged by the recital of stern truths to wound your feelings or your prejudices, I have been forced to the task. Bqtai yoa are reasoning men— men of sense, of candour, and of hoDor, you will sel tic UtM SEVENTH DAY-TUESDAY be the befter for it, yoa mil jinlgo for younelvcs, and when you Me the wilful «nd the fraudulenf perversions and the abominabte Mis- translations ofthe word of God, which have been introduced by the .Sunders Of your religion, you niuy, under God, awaken to a sens^ of you error. Mr. Gngg sneeringly called me a man of delicacy, pnre and spotless ; it is for God to judge. I am, however, a man df delicacy— 'and, as I have said before, I trust that nothing shall 61- cape my lips to offend agninst morals and propriety. My opponent said if ire were to attack the Greek church, and bring her perver- sions oC bcripturc a% an argument against m. , that it would be uQ- fair ; but what parallel is there between the two cases ? Mind me, T do not make any attack on these translations or perversions on ac- count of any verbal errors; but I attack those who broueht you lieft, and blasphemy, and corruption into the word of God. My op- ponent 8ai<1, *< To be sure, the farther you go up into Protestantrtito the nearer you corns tu the tail of Popery, and the more corruptioo* darkness, and vices you will find." Now, I must admit that this it another truth ; for the outcasts, and varabonds and h'an, the defk- mers and renegades — men who, from their bad passions and licen- tiousness, were unfit to remain in the Catholic faith—*' they wete cast out and they became Protestants.** See what a damning ad- inissioti he has unwittingly made— that the apostates, who were blinded by their dark passions, and were cast out fVom Popery, were the heads, the fountains of Protestantism. Those men, when caA out, had no alternative, but to repent and return to the bosom of the Catholic faith, or to set up an opposition against it. But, like fiatan, they preferred the latter eltemative ; they raised the stan- lAard of rebellion and apostacy and they and their followers have ever since been wandering in the mases of error, and are to this hour unable by any ono single principle to prove i\^e trnth of God'e -word. Here is Protestantistn witliout prmciple J; ere is wbal I have been combatting with since the discussion be4;,an ; and tkow have I been met ? By calumny, by loose assertions, and abuse ctf that religin which you, Sir->no, not you— but your ancestors base- ly deserted. You say that you have apostolic bishops. Be kind enough to inform me who ordained your first bishops ? I told yoo, ■Sir. that you had nothing but what you got fVom us— what you eith- •:er took by force or b} stealth. You say that your apostate bishqps ^(rere the first fathers of the church. Now, is it not more likely that they were the bcusts foretold by St. John — the apostates Trotp the truth. But now, my Protestant friends, hear me, and I come to » •a passage in thU man's speech wjthin the last half hour. What^o you think of the man pretending to be a scholar and setting himaelf "Cipto be your champion, the champion of the Protestant church^- -to openly declare in the face of this assembly that he belieyed it was owing to some fortuitous circumstance that the word of Opd ■was preserved and handed down to the followers Of Jesus Chrlftr— that it was by mere accident that the ciuntless millions who jure contained within the church of Christ had the word of God jwe- served to them. Now, don't I reqahre more than superhaman pa- tience to argue with a man who says he has all his doctrines by W:4 19i THE DISCUSSION. chance ? , Here is a beautiful gpccimcn of a PrntPbtnnt theologinn for you. Now, Protestants, vvhot do you tliink of your clinncc cham- pion ? I push him hurd. I aill on liim fur prool'fl. I quote autho* iritiei. He casts all tlie authorities overboarii, and iinally asserts that iie has the Dible by chance — that he can give no further proofs con< cerning it. Hear him agoin. Why the man is completely con- founded And bewildered. He tells you that lie does not care a fur- thins if the text about the Trinity was out of the Bible— that it would be all the same to him. Oh, good God ' is not this too bad ¥ How can I argue with such a man 1 Here is a man who turns about upon millions of men, and says to them : *< I don't care about the doctrines of the Holy Trinity, whether they be in the Bible or not. I calre for no men's authority— for what any man layi or writei. I have the tribunal of my own private judgment. I hftve the spirit with me — I am superior to the whole world besides." Oh, Protestants of the united kingdom, if these be the doctrines he pub- licly advocates, your church nas ^ot a blow from which she can ne- ver recover. There he stands— his words are taken down — there he 11 ariraigned before the public judgment of your church ; and if this be ProKStantism, it is a thousand times worse than I ever previously thought it. It is an old saying, " save roe from my friends, and I will save myself firom my enemies ;" and I tell you, Protestants, that he is the greatest enemy yon ever met with, and that he has done Voulr cause irreparable injury. Again, my friends, he says he ad- nits at one time private judgment, at another time public judg- ment. When I seek to tie him to one, he Vrill fly to the other, and take refugd with bach alternately. But when sorely pushed on both, he throws all overboard, and sticks to chance4 I asked liim for a tule of faith in the commencement of the discussion. The whole of the week passed over, and he has not given ir to me yet. I never could bring him to that point — he merely said that he found- ed his rule of faith on the Bible. I called on him to prove the inte- grity of the Bible, or to show any principle of his church by which fie could convince any sceptic that it was the book of God, and what has he done in the end, now near the end of the discussion? He tells you all is owing to Some fortuitous circumstance. This is my day of attack. During his days of attack I showed that I could answer him. But what answer does he give me w^hen I attack his church, and show the malversion, the perversion^ the fraud, the villany and corruption with which the early reformers dealt with the word of God 1 He ttirhs round on me and says — I have no more to do " with those reformers than you have to cfo with the Greek church. There is again your champion fdr you. He throws overboard all the holy apostles, the shining lights and pure reformers of your church) and then he stands bewildered and amazed at the intrica- cies into which he has fallen. Oh, my friends, if 1 were personally feoiicitous for a triumph, I might appeal only to the judgment of ra- tional men. I will boast of no triumph — I only wish that what is ■aid may so abroad and be read, and that those who read it may tindentand. Oh, my Protestant friends, your grand Reformation) With your Protestant reformers, have been thrown overboard by SEVENTH DAY— TUESDAY- 19J» ologinn * chain- autho- >rt» that ofs con- ely con- e a f ur- -Ihat it 00 bad ^ DO turns re about Bible or ■ays or I hftve eg.'» Oh, 1 he pub- e can ne- ■there he ind if this trcviously els, and I :ants, that has done yg he ad- blic judg- ithcr, and ushed on isked him on. The roe yet. he found- 3 the inte- by which , and what ? He tells nay day of lid answer lis church, illany and le word of lore to do church, rboard all rs of your le intrica- personally nent of ra- lat what is >ad it may ;formation» aboard by ik your cham, on ; and I tell you tliftt the Protcstnnt church never had an enemy until glic full into the hands of Gregg. You have heard the great noise he made, and the maledictions of heaven he invoked upon those who dured to meddle with the word of (iud, forgetting at the same time the founder of his church, whom I proved to havo not only changed the text^ but added to it. Those thunders wera directed against the Catholic church, for leaving out a portion of the ten commandments— out of what do you think ? I suppose you all thouglit ic was out of the Catholic Dible. No ; not one word of them was ever left out of the Catholic Bible, but there was an abridgment of them in a half-penny catechism, for the use of chiU dren four or five years old. We left out " his ox or his ass'* in tba tenth commandment, and put in " thou shalt not covet thy neighs hour's goods," which included oxen, asses, and everything else he might have. He did not complain of this being left out, but he says we left out the second commandmeht. Now, I will Just ask him, by way of experiment, how does he know that the portion to which he refers, was the second commandment ? Who made the division of the commandments? Moses never divided them. What- ever division was made wns made by the Catholic church. But can he say that the Catholic church ever omitted one single sen<> tence of the Holy Scriptures from beginning to end in their Bible f No ; but in tho elementary books fur children, they gave the heads and extracts of the Old and New Testaments. I ask you, Sir, did you ever read Origen on tho commandments ? But J kno at you did not, and if I was to quote liim as authority, you would throw him overboard with all the rest. But your church, Sir, made a division of the commandments. You put the ninth and tenth together intrt one, to uphold your damnable doctrine that there is no distinction in sins, and you have it-^« Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, thou shalt not covet thy neiglibour's houses nor his man ser^ vant, nor his maid servant, nor his ox, nor hh ass, nor anything that is his." Thus you pul ';'!e man's wife and his ox on a level. Wi have it) Ninth— "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.'* Tenth— ^** Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods/' Noir which of those two divisions was the more rational and propet ? I come now, gentlemen of the church of England, again to the mis^ translations and corruptions introduced into the Bible by the ebrly Reformers. First, I will ask you was my opponent able to accus# my church of adding to or taking from one word in the Scriptures 1 But see again what Luther does ; it is not that he adds a note to the margin, or makes any observation on the text, but he brings^ a passage into the body of the text wholly at variance with the entire spirit of the gospel. When Luther was spoken to on the subject^ be said, " I am an apostle as well as Paul ; and if Paid wrote the whole book have not I a right to put in a word.^' Hi^ said I made no ob- servation about the miry clay ; but I will stake my credit if I did not answer him completely on that point. It appears that he is most anxious about saving my eouI. Why, it appears then that he believes in the intercession of saints, and that my soul might be saved by timely interference. He says that he would do all in hii r '. h ni 4i6 THE DISCUSSION. ' I' I Mowvr'totaeeonmlbh 4hat objoci— he would put hit liandi under my Ml. Now, if lie believes that a living «aint could do to much to wiwemy soul, what right hoi he to complain if I believe that St. Paul, who M in heaven, enjoyins the glory of f}od, might intercede 4br ithe salvation of my goul ? St. Paul, who is in heaven, knovrs iwbaitn going on here ; and it is not at all unlikely that he may be praying to God that his glory may be made manifest on earth. The ibvilt too, icnoMTs what is going on, and he may be holding « jubi- 'lee>«iMl rejoicing at the perpetual attacks that arc being mocie on the church of Christ. Hut there will be a grcnter jubilee in hea«> «enf fiat the truth and glory offiod will be triumuhant, and that •hunch with which he has promised to remain shall stti! mt^tinue as the city on the mount. I ask you, Sir, why you are compelling me to knock the brains out of Protestantism — to anatomize it, and Jmvb it bare in all its deformity to the world 7 I did not choose the itaik ; you compelled me to it. I wanted to bind you to the fibrptufieai to pin you to a rule of faith ; but you had no principle to go hyt and you evaded me, and had recourse to the most base, akoderoiM, and lying authorities, to defend your church. 1 don't do'so. I rely upon the Scriptures for doctrine, and upon credible witnesses of your own church for facts, in your last speech, as if to ikiU time, you treated us to a story from Dean Swift. . You mere- ly did it for the purpose of evading me. That is the way you have baeo going about, creepinff into holes and corners, and under the iloorBinto the houses of olcTwomen. But ought not the old women to uk you w.here you came fron>— where you got the Bible which vou offisred tbem to read, and if vou cadidly said to them, *' I got it firoie the corrupt Papist/' why, there is not an old woman in the country that would not tell you begone, that she would have nothing to ao srith you. On the other hand, if you told her you got it by chance, why ahe would tell you begone as an impudent impostor. And I tell you, Mr. Gregg, that when this discussion is over you will not he able to creep inta as many houses as you used to do. And come nfkw,,Sir, I will put a clear question to you again ; and I beg you will not say* in attempting a reply, that you smell an Infidel or^mi Atliei«t« who is throwing doubt upon the word of God. J have, J3ir, repeatedly drclnfed before high heaven (hat I would sinfier itt'hoiMaad deaths befoie I would deny the holy Scriptures ; Initi iiee those arguments (o show that you have noihii^g bift v4iat «ame from the church which you basely deseited. Now, Sir, is my question, lo wit : Where is your proof of the ttUthemieity or integrity of the Bible, unless yovi tn'ke that proof frpm the Catholic chnfli 1 If you fail in giving a proof of the ;]^hle,'how can you make a rule of faith ? anri if you fail in the r^ile of falh, you must acknowledge thnt your church is the nippsjtacy. I have put these questions repentedly. Now, that 4he diflcursisn is drawing to a close, I nsk you you, will you at- tempt anything like an answer 1 You attempted to prove thai mre were the apostacy ; and, I will grant you this, that if you did not fail in that Allempl you failed in nuihing. Here, now, ■■*^fl EIGHTH IilAY.WBDNBSDAY. tflT* my fiiendiR 1 refer to other pnMagei which have Umiv groMljl perverted in these Proteitniil tranilAli«.*nf. In the pateagf ^ " drink the wine which I hav« mingled for you.*' Thie Pro*, testaut icantlntioii has it, "drink the wine which I have dtamn\ for you.** Nowv in no language that ever woe wriltan^doi the wordi mingle and draw betat any affinity. But. it wa»t done for a purpose. Again in the passage where it sahi; *'«h*< hath immolated her host,*' the Protestant translation has iH. " she hath killed her heast.** Whore the passage appearsi, "shall serve the altar,'* the Pi otestant version. haa it *^haU mtvth the table." For " churoh," there is subistituted the wordi*' lem. pie." For the word *< priest," they have siibsituted." ehliir/' and for " church, " congregation." For in the passnga wherai it is said, "if any one be sick among you, call in the prwalw of the church," they have it, ** call in (he elder»^of the congrtit gation." Thus if a man wnre sick all the old* men of* thai Gongi'egation were to be called in to him in placo of;t||0 priealet of I he church. U^ra the roverond gentleman's half hour endedv ,r» {lion of Trinity College, Now, I'll tdl you what I am-^I am the ittle David that will overcome the boasted champion of apostacy (oheers and hisses). I am a man with no power, no skill, no repu- tatiea to lose, and my only qualification is, that the spirit of God is with me* But poor as I am in those respects, I will stand i^;ainst him, and I will show him, that though I am but little, he has caught a Tartar (cheers and hisses). Come, now, I challenge you, sir, tq coHie to common sense, and to give up such cavils as you are using. Now, hear me — I say the doctrine of the intercession of the saints is damoable. Defend it if you can. He calls me *' defender of the faith," and says I am a pretty defender. Why, sir, you have given me nothing to defend myself against. On the contrary, I will prove that you are guilty of idolatry, and that your church teaches none hut fal«e doctrine. But here I am now without anything to answer. Why, I protest I might have sat down a full qurrter of an hour ago, ^lau^hter). The man is beaten (cheers and laughter). He is a beaten iUMn,(t'cnc\vcd cheers and laughter). ^m .5^0* 'i f \'M :iHT ♦ fl THE DISCUSSION, , i!^ ."..':i/!>t»S''^' y--li ! ; j;,:; the rev, Messrs, maguire and creog. ' l^iGHTH Day — Wednesday. — (Continued.) Mr. Maguiret-WcII you certainly made out tlie half hoqr t| well as you coul^j and I peifpctly i^gree with you that you wouI4 itave done yourself and your pause much more service if you ha4 sat down a quarter of an hour ago. Now, Mr. Gregg* in the face oftliis assembly, I challenge you to-morrow to meet me on the vat terce&sion of the saints. I accept your call, Sir, (great cheering). Mr. GftEGG-rrAnd I'll meet it (cheering from Mr, GreggV friend»), Mr. Maguire — Don't make such a noise ; you know the chair- men v.Wl allow me any time that I may lose by yppr Interruption. You have all heard the proofs which he has given of the canot^icity of the Scriptures — First, he says he has them pn the autbopty of the church ; but then, what church he will not defiue, becau^jB he knows well he has no such authority. He thep rpns to the pripair tive fathers ! The primitive of what chujrc)) ? of ours-— to prove Protestantism and Christianity. Now, Mr^ I ask you is not th^t ad- ipitting the very authority wliich you have denied all through— namely, that of the tradition of the holy Catholic apfl Apostolic church — you have nothing else to prove your own Scripturesi but the authority of the holy fathers. Of what church were they 1 Who canonised them ? In whose communion did they jive end die be- fore Protestantism viras pver heard of 1 Oh, Sir, you know wpll it vras tiie holy l^oman Catholic church. You ^alk, then, of cprrup- . tion and apostacy, and yet you are driven to prove the diyipi^y of your Bible to this apostacy and corruption. Your friend^ ougbt to congratulate you on going back again to Popery. Yop deny your apostacy, and going back again to Popery. You deny your apos- tacy» and when you were put to the proof did we pot sep that you were obliged to admit you took (he whole Bible from m9 ; and-r- oh ! lool^ at him — there is the man who defppds Protestantism. What s^ pretty champjop ! What fin accoropli;ihed divine I He goei to anciept history— to profane history. Good Gpd I was ever such a thing heard of? Who ever knew that in order to prove ss* cred history it was necessary to have reepurse to profane history in order to prove the sacred history of the eternal word of Qod ? Wh^t ! find qqt that which is an infiilllble mediuip pf God's Reve- lation io man by ipeans of prpfane history. Ts it not ipopstrpusl h il pot blasphemous to prov^ the e^igtence of tlie Holy Spir|t of God by such means, a« if any of th^ oilier book^ pf Ciperp, Tff ti)l<; |i>n, or j^py f^tjier Wfiter, to pfpve fbe e?|.isjepcc pf pjviRo |Xeyf\ai '.'i 'A ,11; » .'lil i I! •'■■; 20i THE DISCUSSION. tion 1 You acknowledge you derive a portion of your authority for belieTing' the tcripture*, from a profane history. Mr. Grbog — No, no. Mr. Maquirb — Ah, Sir, it is recorded against you ; the gentle- men who attend h«re for that purpose have taken it down, and the world will judge of your tergiversation. Again, he says, all this will not do,^ you must go to the holy scriptures themselves, in order to prove themselves — tnat's the book that will tell you everything. Has Daddy Cooke the holy scriptures ? Eh, Doctor ? Hfs Dr. Urwick the holy scriptures 1 They all differ from you, who know and despise the authority of your church. O, no, no one has them but Mr. Gregg. Why ? Because no one pretends to be inspired but him. Indeed, he is the only man I ever knew laying claim to individual inspiration. If he be inspired, all I can say is that he is a haptiy man ; but I am very far, indeed, from being inclined to give him credit for it. The first man who ever laid claim to this f articular inspiration was Marcion, of whom I snoke yesterday, and 11 make a present of him to Mr. Gregg. ** Acknowledgest thou me," said this inspired man, addressing St. Polycarp. "Acknow- ledge you !" replied the saint, " O, yes, J acknowledge thou to be the firbt born or the devil,** (laughter). There is for your inspired men ! He says every Protestant can make an act of faith. Upon what ? What will the ignorant Protestant do who can't read, if the Bible be the sole rule of faith, and the holy scriptures are the second, and then the third is so much of Popenr as we can 6nd no bbjection to 1 Where is the church ? He calls that public jodg- teeht ; and then the holy scriptures themselves are the private judg- tacist. Which of them are right ? If they differ, who is to decide 1 We can prove that the church to which I belong existed seventy jears before the gospel was written at all : and you are obliged, in order to prove your Bible is the word of God, to ^o back to that bhurch. If she were in error, you cannot prove the canonicity of your Bible. If she were not, why did you abandon her ? is that showing who the apostate church is? (cheers). Where was your church for 800 years after the death of Christ ] We have 18 gene- ral councils, which condemned in every age, from the time of St. Peter, every heresy which appeared, down to the council of Trent, which conderilned your own, and excommunicated those who dare 10 propagate it. Yes, Sir, all these prove to any unprejudiced mind fhat the holy Roman Catholic church is, and has been, the church 6f God throughout the world for a period of 1,800 years. If your church cannot prove the holy scriptures the holy scriptures must be Uis than the church. You must always prove the lesser by the greater ; and because you cannot prove the scriptures by your church, therefore the scriptures must be less than the church. You t&lk a ^reat deal about consecrating oil and blessing holy water. Now, Sir, did I not prove to you, from the holy scriptures, that it was lawful ? Did I not cite three passages out of the Old, and three out of the New Testament for that purpose ; and did you dare to answer one of them? Do you not know ** that every creature of God is good when sanctified by the word of God, and by (Grayer V **Al\ thing! were made by him» and without him was made nothing : )■. must r by the EIGHTH DAY— WfiDNj^SDAY. , f , V. ^.•>* therefore everythins which he m&de wai blened.** But it is your heresy— your complete ignorance— that condemn you. Do you not do so yourselves ? Let every one who hears me go to the approach- ing coronation, and he will find the same thmg practised. Do you not bless your churches and your churchyards ? I told you, therefore, that there was no principle in Protestantism, and that Protestantism was church of Englandism. He says that preabute* roa signifies elder. Who ever denied that ? But ought not eccle- siastical terms be used so as that the proper meaning of a word may be rightly understood 1 Every elder may be a priest, but a priest may not be an elder; and why then call things by names which are not applicable 1 Elder it applied to the oldest man who may not be a priest ; and will you then dare tell me that this is a cor- rect or proper translation t Again, episcopos may signify an over- seer, as well ag a bishop ; but will you tell me, in the cammon ac- ceptation of words, that, though a bishop is an overseer, an over* teer can be a bishop 1 This is the way you mystify and corrupt the holy word of God. You ask the reason why we call the Book of Chronicles paraleipontenon 1 Did I not convict your Bible of omitting the names of Italy and Africa, and the islands " far west,** in the prophet Daniel, when he talked of "a continual sacrifice" be- ing offered to the living God in those countries, you omitted that, because sacrifice is too Popish a term, because it includes England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy. You were afraid that the passage which describes sacrifices offering to the Lord by the hands of priests would tell against Protestantism who have, or offer up, no aacrifice. You said also that in converting a Pagan you would hold out to him the holy book ; and, in saying so, you gave one of those holy looks to show the spirit was in you. No, said you, " I wiH not tell Mr. Maguire, not I, indeed ; but Til tell you, m^ friends,'' and turning round to them, you added 't. \'\ t»y ilM Ifiiritof God, but the bas^iiets and villanies of roan, when il becoolQt an inttrument of t^e deVit, to dHve mankind into cnnfu- lion. Look at what has occurred in Canturbury the other day, where 9 man told the people he was tlie Saviour of the world — that lie would rise again in three days, and tliat nothing could molest kim; There's Bible-reading in England for you, (laughter), where you can get sacks of them w nothing, (continued laughter). This persuaded his deluded followers to resist the Queen's forces, under the persuasion that he would do what Antichrist will be allowed, namely, to work miracles ; and that they could not be touched by a bullet. Look to tlie miserable consequences which resulted irom 'tha( unfortunate fanaticism— numbers ot^unfortunate men shot dead, apd others wounded, the wretched man who deluded the poor peo- ple having sacrificed his life., Look at Johanna Southcote, how many props of Protestantism did she seduce ? — about sixty or se- venty parsons were continually dandling ader her tail, (laughter), as if she were their Saviour. I)id she seduce a priest 1 or would she were she now living ] There's yout^ apostacy for you ! What care, you for apostacy! Be the sect ariti- Baptist, Quaker, Jew — anything, even the devd himself, and he is' safe, provided he is not ft Papist. You say nothing against the Unitarian, who denies the divimty of Jesus Christ. You say nothing against the Deist ; and I regret there are too many of them. No, Sir, but Popery is oppos- ed because the children of Israel in Egypt cannot be put down. If yoik could sink Ireland into the Atlantic in forty-eight hours you w6iitd be satisfied. That is the alpha and omega ot your orisons, Atui this it is which shows the holy spirit of which you are possess- ec^ imd tliat love of your neighbour which characterises yo'.i. C>, we wo^uld -sell all we have, and give it to the poor, only for Popery, (laughter). Stick to that, and you will continue in the spirit of er- rdr^ mDm which, fro;ii my heart, I beg of uod to remove you. The Irev^end gentleman says he defers his judgment to that of the church, and then he admits the right of private judgment to every iBdividiial in that church. I will leave you to judge of the conse- quences which must arise from that doctrine. I shall not give my- self much more trouble on that head. You will recollect whether he ever explained, if a disagreement should arise what was to be ddhe. t now ailc him, and I hope he wtU remember it for to-mor- row, whether the. Holy Ghost is the public judgment or the private judgalent t Which is the rule of faith '; and, if either should come into cOilijBion, who is to decide 1 or who is right, or who is wrong ] If the public judgment of the church should set up One opinion, I want to' know would Daddy Cooke, or Dr. Urwick, or Mr. Pope bend to that opinion ? O, no, they would laugh at you. They have idready refused your best benefices^ and despised your man- datesi Wduld the Unitarian bow to your authority 1 Would the Trinitarian ? the Moravian ? the Southcotonians ] Not they. They despise jrou as much as they do the Pope himself in this i'espect. Will ytUtt explain, therefore, who is the Holy Ghost ? He then talks of mathematics — to please your intagitiafion, I suppose. I r^k .you, gentlemen, is not revelation above {:■.( c~l•^.i^^:h\■ uf nmn f 'mJ EIGHTH iDAY— XVEDS'ESDAY- fofi revealed hi* sacred mysteries unto us ; but thvj alro abovt our conipreliensioii, uiid are not to be prnvyd by mathematical calcula- tion. Gud lias rtvealcd certain articles, uiid insists us a condition of our being savtd, tliut we shul! believe in tiiem on his divine au- thority ; and, as St. I'uul siiys, God captivates our undei'itaoding to the obedience of faith. To understand them, we must have some motive for doing so. First, whether God has revealed them ; and the moment we arrive at that conclusion we are bound, under pain of eternal damnation, to believe them. The question is, then, it that ■the Bible in which God's holy word is T I have asked hitn to prove it. He will not do so ; but, like your honest refortnei'a of old he says he twists and turns, and presumptuously asserts that he has the spirit of God, instead of quoting one single argummorrow will be set apart for the discussion of that doctrine, and we will see Whether He will prove from the holy scriptures that it is erroneous. It will bo the last dcy, and it will he seen who does or who docs not belong to the Catholic church of Christ, which was always visible oh earth since the days of the apostles, holy and apostolic. I ask yoU this question, sir, what churcl) condemntd all the heresies thjit eVer ap- peared in the world ? I read for you yesterday the council, the year, the name of the Pope who presided, the name of the heresy condemned frooi t!je last }»eucral council of Trent, which cdndemti- ed your church to St. Peter. I call on him to prove that that was his churuli. O, no ; he suys it cuuld not be seen. What I can the church be the united, holy, und apostolic church of ChriU on earth, and be invisible ? Wad there ever such a contradiction as he was guilty of I He then talks of our bishops in the time of Mary, hotr Chey turned round when she came on the throne, and then turned back when Cliznheth sticceeded her. I at^k him were they crdained over aprain by Elizabetl* — wsu it not from us they jjot their ordina- tion, and did you ever deny its validity ' This I tell you, sir, that if you came over to us, we would not receive you until you denied your ordination and conseciarion, and be orduined anew. Your great Archbishop Cranraer told the king that he had nothitig to do round the heads of bishops, and they were consecrated ; and when in the time of Elizabeth the Catholic bishops refused to, ordain Mat- thew Parker, she gave Baile and Storey supreme poWer to do so, saying sue would give theoi a dispensation for any defects which took place in the consecration. We Know you forged the words of Liinheih, and it was not until you were attacked by Gregory JMar- tin that you did so ; and even then they were not brought forth for thirty yt-ars. It is no'A evident you forged them, ar.d no one is hardy enough to deny it. When Ijngard was attacked for stating in his history of England tijat Matthew Parker wps consecrated^ he was obliged to state that he wjm cunsecrated, but that he did not sav it was lawful consecration, 'f hus, sir, are we watchful over the h»M oC.Ic.wm Christ, iuul when any of our priests go over to yoUj yuA rtij't'if lltuiii (') d'» ii<» j.H n;i:iCc — ; nu »'»• not call i!j>un tl;ei^: tn ''Xi § ,:m li THE DISCUSSION. perform good works, holding that faith alone ii lulRcient. The moment thev come, jrou send them to preach against Popery— you take them from Antichrist, without any preparation, nor do you even instruct them as catechisers. Mr. 6 a EGO— We demand a recantation. Mr; Maouirb— Without a trial of any sort, you take the scum of the beast (a laugh) — although St. Paul says— "let a man prove himself.** ^ , ■ ■ The halfhenr ended here. "*"* ^^' Bev. Mr. Greoo— We take them without restitution, without consecration, without consubstantiation, and all the other ations ; but did we take them back without recantation (cheers and hisses). I tell you we don*t take them back till they have acknowledged that their original ordination was false and devilish ; that it was mixed up with the worst of poisons— that they were obliged at the time they received it to acknowledge they gave themselves up to the de- vil, and as it were sold their souls, like Judas, for 30 pieces of mo- aey ; and before we suffer them to enter the pulpit, we obliffe them to renounce all the abominations of that consecration or ordination which is foul, and the ceremonies attendant on which np but other proofs of your apostacy before God. Sir, you are a skilful, able, clever man. You know how far to go, and you take care to go no isrther. Hence you took right good care not to nnenlion recan- tation. That was cunning of you. Sir, but I tell you that if you ehould come back to ud we vriil not receive you till you have read ns big, Day a bigger recantation, than any man has read this many a^ay (cheers and laughter). You have not hardly said anything during the last half ho^ir. You know Juvenal says — ** Crambm repetita miserot ocddit magistros." You go on " Turn about and wheel about,** but yc u never stop a moment at anything. But now 1 must have a triumph. Who displays the cowardice (loud cheeie and hisses) 1 Who shrinks from the contest t What, Sir ! so the discussion w to conclude to.morrow (cheers and hisses). To.rnorrow is (hen 10 be the last day (renewed cheering and groans). Oh, who is it that runs away 1 I tell you that if 1 were not restrained hy a sense of what I owe to the ch.iir, I would so cover you with ehaine (laughter, and loui cries of " question**). Mark my lime, Sir. Oh, Sir, you ate now beaten (laughter and cheers). There will be no more dragging of coair through our towns, asking who will tread on them. There will be no more challenging, no more browberain^ (cheers, laughter, and groans, with cries of *' ha, ha," from ex.priesl Nolan). Here, now, I have twenty.one questions to answer, and 1 believe I may scratrh my pen over the whole of them. He began by knocking his head against a mistake, which pervaded his en. tire speech— namely, (hat we believe the scriptures on the au. thority of the fathers alone, when I merely brought them in ns accidental (a laugh). He talks of his church cnnonieing these EIGHTH DAY~WEDNE;SDAT. W9 falheri — I tell you, vir, thai your cnnonizai ion in a mark of dnmnalion. Whon any man it npproved aa a saint by your church, it is an excellent proof of his reprobnlion. You may talk as long as you like of your canonization, 1 will give you a specimen of some of the nice people on whom it was conferredf and an example of the virtues and distinctions which entitled any one to it . He read from the lives of the saints an exiiaei of the life of St^ Simon Siilex, who lived upon a pillar twenty, two cubits high, for tiKenty yearo, with a chain lound his body. Now, there, Miid he, is one of their saints, and there is a spe. cimen of the mrictity for which they were canonized. Waai a pity my reverend friend is not living on the top of a column, lweniy- peal to the common sense of my Roman Catholic brethren, u such a life as that the life of a saint 1 What should the life of a saint be Y It should be coming forward as I do (laughter) — and as he does, for he has belter claims to sanctity than St. Simon Stilex, with his long ears, by going about preaching the word of God, and doing practical good to men, not sticking^ one's self to n pillar, with a chain about his body, making a ahowof himself for the amusement of mankind. Now, I ask the Roman Catholic ladies what would they think of their hua. bands, if they went and lived at the top of a pillar, instead of remaining at home with themselves (cheers and groans). Rev. Mr. Nanole — Ii is perfectly useless to act in this man. ner — for, if I were to »it here all day, I would not stir till Mr. Gregg spoke for his half hour. i^ Rev. Mr. GftEca rend another extract from the life of the same saint, to the effect that he concealed a sore in his foot, which was swarming with maggots. Now, said be, I entreat you to look at what ia considered sanctity by Rome. Ob, I tell you that it is true that their canonization is a mark of dam* nation. Now, does not this beat out the comical stories h*^ told us the other day. Now, I will refer you to a Protestant saint, and the man I will choose is a poor weaver in EIngland, Although an old man, he row every morning at an early hour, and knelt down to lift up his voice in praise of the Almighty. Many a time have I called in to him at the morning's dawn, with the smile of piety and the light of religion lighting up km countenance, And I have seen him at his work, even at that early hour. He used to work but for little, and the pittance he obtained was barely sufficient to support existence* At breakfast time he used to come home and a^ssembte his children about him, read to them the word of God, and raise his voice in a hymn to his holy name. At dinner time he would come again to his home, and again raise his voice in prayer in the midst of his little family. This was a man, whose pittance wais iniufficient to support him, but he never was in want, for nooe I'l ^^1 :i' ■ .'ill I iifi (■■'j ■'■ ;' * 'A' 1 ■ l|:f . 1 910 THE DlSCL'SSigNi im >!^l ^Ht^i i^^H ^ ^^B ^^H •woulU refine (o s;lv« liim asHl-lnncp, He w.'ts but n l.ihniiriiig mnn, bul I tell yon, you would tttantl in (iwcjat. ib-^ dignity ami ranclily thai were viRiblo in hit) coun'eiianire, onH Ifu wtia Itnown to be no— for when walkin^f "loii^, the p;pjplo woul '< mnke wny for him, knowi:;|:^ that thd holiness of I he Lotd WAf moving ninon^ ihein. Now, is ho not more like a sr.int than St. giuion Stilcx, who mudo a fool of him«elf by stick. ing him!«olf on a pitlar, whei't;nf he iiho'.ld be stuck in the pil. lory,nud pelted \vi»h rotten eggs ((|ue8tit.n). So much for their canonization. Th'^re id also old Labr6 who was memioncd by 118 yesterday, he never combed his head, which wns so overrun with vermin, ihnt his coiifcssor was obliged lo put a bprrier be tneen them, lesl they should crawl from his head upon him. Yet& miracle is related of this so.cnlled saint, and the miracle was, that his body, which during life wis foul and filihy,. jumI (liigusiing ni den(i), emitted the odour of sanctity, and his hand moved. It happened, I supposes by some chance, lo be on the edge of a chair, from which it slippmi, when the silly by.stand. en cried out " n miracle, a niraclc." Now, then, canoniza. tion 18, I say, a brand of apostucy. Oh, you perceived how he laboured, and what evident pain he fc(?ls, when I come to speuk of lifting up Jesus. I do not wonde;- fhal he should feel when I speak of the spiiit nf God, because he knows that it is not with him, You bln^phf ne the Lord who made you, and you blaspheme Jesus* Cliric:, who said that he would save every one who believed in him« Vou protest against the lifting up of Jesnt, and you encourage the adoration of saints and images. |t is not, then, a matter of wonder that Ireland should be so di. vided, degraded, and disgraced — it is little wonder that my countrymen should be in filth and beggary, when we see the example that is set ihem> and (he doctrine which is taught, (tremendous groanmg and cheering). Rev. Mr. Maguire — Why he is doing you all possible ser. vice, my friends, and will yoq not let him ^^o on ? Bev. Mr, Gregg — Their misery is from yo.a Masphemy of the Lord, and their beggary is from th> ('ocrM; which ;i.u teach (hem. But yon say that you. ciiurch is universal, as if C ha^ not proved over and over again that its very extent Is, a great proof of jts apostacy. It is said in the Revelations, **andll« caused all, both great, and small, rich and poor, free jp>r4 iiond to receive a mark jp their right hand;?, or in Uieir fore- jicjis,'* ,v '1 ihat mark >V08 the number 666. Now, I have gfiyiin you scoirpf; cf names belonging to your church that make up t^at mimbf r— 'f The Latin Priest," " Th?, Pope of]^ome," ** Tl|e Bi?*|)iop of Rome," ♦•' The divine infallible," and many ptlivre l^^m gave you before, compose that number. Now, I yfi\\ give yp\x a fact, A fii^nd of mipe saw the other day a KINTH PAY— THURSDAY. nity aiMl Ifi3 yKtti woul '< 1 he Lo'rt :e a sr.iiu by stick. a the pil. for their ioncd by ■) overrun prrier be on him. e miracle ihy, »n(i hit) bniid be on (lie by.sland- cnnoniza- d how he 3 to speuk feci when i it is not , and you ive every lifting up id images. 1 he 80 di- ihat my ve see the $^K taught, 3sible ser. sphemy of ivhich ■u\ji universal^ sry extent jvelaiions, poofi free llieir fore- owy \ have that make of Jlome," and inany r. Now, I )thcr da^ a Bumber of piiesti geltin^r on a car, aud, when he looked itt the car, the number was 6G6'-just as if it was said ** here they 4re,»' Rev. Mr. Maguirk -There is intfipiraticnforyou (laughter). Rev. Mr. Grbqg — Hh •i't's a lexi to prove that it islawfuj to bless anything. Ych, I odtnit, ihat nben necessary, any, ihing may be biessKd — aye, and you will bless the long sword with which you will make us all as lame as jnmb?, and you will drive (he devil out of sand und mortar. | don't object to (h8 thing in (he abstract ; but I say it is a mockery in the «iiy ihat it is (reated in your tvlig-ion. ( preached ^ i'ermon at he lime of the conHccraiion of Arran-quny, to prove ih^^t thitl con. ■ecration was n giving of the chapel (o the devil, and who came forward to contradict me 1 No one. If any one had the h(^Tro that mathematics are not divinity. I never mentioned that they were. You accuse U8 of not translating certain naraeq to be met with in (he scriptures which you say are Afi'ica, Italy, &.C. You know ns well as I (hat there is much doubt with regard to places that are thus named, both in the scrip. turce ami in classics, and we acted on the beat principles of wisdom in not translating them lest the people should be de, ceived Sy whut might be a mi8tranf>lation. But I have nothing jnore lo say, because you have left me nothing to reply to-- '(laughter). Y«Mi came back once more to public and private judgment. Vmr say 1 do not attack the Unitarians. No, I do not ; but I will (ell you why. Because we do not attack aiiy ■* $ut the mother of all evils and abominations, in hopes that wheq yot^rapQftacy 19 purposed, they will pofpeive thcif errors and .4, ■.''11 ill J..rM;i l-itt 'lit a. :■!» 11 ti- ■ 11 '■J '- ■■ ', \ . 1, :\ i. ■ \-' ■ • .: 1 . 218 THE DISCUSSION, r abandon them. You ask me would Mr. Pope, or Dr. Urwick^ or Dr. Cooke, or other dissenters acknowledge our public judg. ment — would they come into your church 1 No, they would not. They would not embrace either yours or mine. You nrgue thus—" They would not come into your rule of faith because it is the wrong one ; therefore ouis is the right one." Why, Sir, are you not ashamed of yourself 1 Prepare for judgment — come ye out of Babylon, and flee lest ye be defiled with the abominations. I know, Sir, you will answer me as I have been answered hy my poor countrywomen in Sheffield, in order to in. struct whom, I studied the Irish language, instead' of studying Orecfc and Hebrew. When I have said to them, " Babylon will be destroyed,'* they have answered, " No, Babylon will not be destroyed — it will not fall." There is your answer. 1 teli you. Sir, your seven-hill city is about to be blown up. Rome, it is well known, is built on a volcanic foundation (laughter), and when the Lord will give the word, the whole city will be blown up (great laughter). The half hour having concluded, and it being two o'clock tb« meeting separated. ■-ixa k NINTH DAY— THURSDAY. 1 ,t*Qi£ v;i The interest on Thursday seemed in no way abated. The ■room was densely crowded long before the hour of commencing the proceedings arrived. At eleven o'clock, Mr. Maguire rose and called upon Mr. ■ Gregg to go on with the subject of the day — the invocation of saints. Mr. Grcgg — Before we proceed with the business of the day, there is some preliminary matter to be disposed of. I wish the correspondence which has taken place on the subject of closing the discussion may be read, that it go before the public. Rev. Mr. M'Namara — I don't see any necessity for it, *''*"'' • Mr. Gregg — I think, with respectful submission, there is a necessity that it should make a part of the proceedings ; and as you have been instrumental in breaking up the discussion, I think you should have no objection that the correspondence which has taken place on the subject should be read. I musi. Sir, acknowledge that throughout the whole proceedings your conduct has been that of a gentleman and a man of honor. I appeal to you, Mr, Maguire, if you do not think the correspen. dence should be read. > < - Mr. Maguire — The only objection I have is, that it will im- pede the business of the day. Rev. Mr. Nangle, Mr. Giegg's chairman, then read the cor lere ]s a NINTH DAY— THURSDAY. / ( SIS. respondencQ between himself and the Rev. Mr. M'Namara, which has been already published. The reverend gentlemaa. then read his answer to the last letter, the substance of which was that he could not se" any impropriety in prolonging the discussion, or appointing a tribunal to judge of the extracts from Dens, with regard to the instructions for confession of fe. males — that, in his judgment, such a proceeding would be cal. culated to do great good — that the fathers, brothers, and bus- bands of Ireland might be kft to judge whether their daugh-' ters, sisters, and wives should still be subjected to such a course of examination— that, as to the accuracy of the transla. tion, he was quite willing to abide the judgment of those com. pelent to judge — he further added that this discussion ended wirhout the concurrence of his friend Mr, Gregg. When the correspondence was read, the reverend gentleman said he could not sit down without making his acknowled^. nients to the Rev. Mr. M*Namara, for his courtesy, candour, and gentlemanly bearing throughout the whole proceeding. The Rev, Mr.' M'Namara said he felt bound to make a li. milnr acknowledgment to his reverend friend, Mr. Nangle. The Rev. Mr. Gregg tlien came forward, and said — I beg leave, my friends, first publicly to declare, that this discussion has been brought to a conclusion withont my concurrence; (long and loud cheering). I will say to you, m^ Roman Catholic firiends, that, if I have uttered anything to wound your feelings, I did so through af^ fectioB, and as an act of duty. And although I was against your religion, I admit that there are many virtuous and amiable people among the Roman Catholics (cries of hear, hear). There are many of them whom I would be sorry to accuse, more particularly the reverend gentleman before me ; and, if they be guilty of crindei, they are the crimes that spring from their religion. If we go to the Pagans we will find among them a great deal of natural amiability of character and manly virtues deserving of respect and admiration ; and I must say that in the gentleman with whom I have had to deal in this discussion there is much manliness of character to admire, and lie possesses many virtues entitled to respect ; and from my soul I declarethat I could hold out the right hand of Christian fellowship tp him if I did not conscisntiously believe him to be the enemy of my master — the enemy of my soul — the enemy of Christ I believe that, notwithstanding all his manly virtues, he is the wolf in the fuld of Christ Jesus-r-the destroyer of the souls of men. When I believe him so I must refuse him the high pri'IIt^e of that Chris- tian fellowship which my soul would otherw:^? delight to enjoy ^ith him. I believe he has the mark of Antichrist — I believe that i have the spirit ; and it is almost with tears in my eyes that I pro- claim to him that apostacy which must separate us. The spirit tells me that on the last day I shall stand on the right hand of God ; and I here lifr up my voice against the errors by which you are led astray. I call upon you, come intojthe church of Christ, that we ■fcnj Tm ill'J ! "Jii V^ 1. "1. i i ''-'■'. '■ :■ 0: ill (■ s' .,1 iu trtE DISCUSSION. ¥ 5fi teav all enjojr together the miknifestation of the glatf of God (loud utiA long condaued cheering). I now icomc to ibe subject of the invocation of saints, which is a leading feature of the apostacy. It h said that in the latter days some shall apostatize from the truth, jind by the spirit of devils they shall cast out devils. Now, thy breth* fen^ J shall lay before you a picture of the rites and worships of the Pagans', and you will see how exactly it corresponds with Popery. They believed that there was a God — tiiev believed alsn tiiat there Were Gods of a lesser kind — they had their diipeira^it and dii ntinon- vm gentium. They believed that tliose little gods could introduce them to the greet God arid make intercession for them. There, my friends, is Popery plain and palpable, t Fhall point out to you the itaarkt of thc» apostacy into which I believe the Lord has led them ibr their blindness. See St. Paul to the Colossians, 2d chap, and lUth verse, "Let no man sedudeyou, willing in humility and religion of ingels, walking in the things which he hath not seen^ in vain puffed «p by the sense of his flesh." I shall now read for you a note ap- pended to this by a self-cOnstituted tribunal : '< Willing —that is by •elf-wflled, self'invented, superstitious worship, falsely pretending humility, btit really proceeding from pride. !5uch was the worship that many of the philosophers^ (against whom St. Paul speaks, verse 8tb,).j[)aid to engels or demons by sacrificing to them as carriers of intelligence betwixt God and men, pretending humility in so doing, as if God were too great to be addressed by men, and setting aside the mediatorthip of Jesus Christ, who is the head of both angeU an4 menk Such aI$o was the worship paid by the ancient heretics, 4isclpiel of Simon and Menander, to the angels whom they believ- ed to be the inakers and the lords of this lower world." Here is a condemnatioit of Popery in their own Bible. Here is the old Pagan ■wprahipt pointed out, where more Gods than one are recognized. Jt it an exact— 41 perfect description of Popery in the present day. I ihall now read to you a prayer to the Blessed Virgin M dry, from one of the Catholic prayer books, wherein she is invoked to inter- cede with God, and that withont her aid the supplicant would be lost. The reverend gentleman then continued^ Is not this much gross idolatry^ destroying the mediatorship of Christ. Here is ano- ther of these dreadml prayers to the Virgin Mary, and here are .kpdiie of the names by which she is designated, " Seat of Wisdom, Spiritual Vessel, Tower of Ivory, Elouse of Gold, Ark of the Cove- nant, Gate of Heaven. Morning Star.** There is doctrine unsup- ported by scripture. We have, too, images, and crosses, and a form of consecration of those images by ringing of bells, sprinkling of holy water, and other Pagan ceremoniesi I take it from the l^on- iificale Romanutn. Here is a description of the form of consecra- tion of the holy cross : it is sprinkled with water, prajers are recit- ed over it, there are ringing of bells end ofTtring of incense, an in- vocation of the holy Spirit to descend into the wood. Then the Consecrating bishop says, "Let it be sanctified—let the spirit be in this wood— that through prayers before it ^e may obtain health of '.body and soul.'* The consecrating priest then says, " Ipse devote wkrat," himself devoutly adoics it^Iexis genibus dtvoU adore tt ^m NINtH DAY—tHDRSDAY. 215 deuht" All tbis, my friendsi is Ht variance with the true spu-it of the 8cri|)tures, for throughout the whole of God's word you will find that for no crime under heaven does the jealousy of God blaze forth more terribly than for that of idolatry. Ilear the words of the Lord God, " Thou shalt not bow down to any graven iniasfe, nor make the likene's .;f anything ia heaven or eartli." "i i,e inind of the Lord flasheth forth, and hisi anger kindleth against these who make idols, who How down to thena or worship tljeai. Here you l.avc t'jc mi- nister of that church invoking the Spliit of God to come down and abide in wood or stone, How tnu«t the wrath and indignation of God be kindled against such abcininations 1 The only home of the Spirit of God on earth is in the heart of man, and awful is the blas« phemy to desire its dwelling in se seiess stone or wood. The reve- reod gentleman will tell me that his worship does not terminate in the image* but I say why place it up between utau and his God ; between man and the only mediator, Chriiit Jesuis. It may bo urg- ed against me as an argument^ that the golden calf was set up as an object of worship for the Israelites ; bict that was a type o( the Sa< viour— and there was not one of tiic Pagans so sottish as (o think it was God. Oh, how awful must be the wrath of the Great Jehovah, and woe to them that say to wood and dumb>stonc, the spirit of God is in thee, and I give thee external worship. How can any man be so senseless as to worship senseless things, when he has God given to hinh I tell you that there is no sin under heaven so abominable as the Boman Catholic worship of saints and image?, and none so much at variance with the spirit of God^s word. All those practices are Pagan, purely Pagan, even the word Pontifex, used in the consecration of those images, was Pagan. You may, Sir, deny that you are guilty of idolatry, and go on with your equir vocation as long as you like. But what care 1 for your denial while I have those damning facts against you. If I go into a room and find an assassin plunging a dagger into the breast of his friend, and that he tells me he is not guilty of murder, am I to stop to listen to his arguments or syllogisms. Ch 1 no ; I am bound to seize him and drag him before the proper tribunal. Again, I say, there is no greater crime under heaven than what the Roman Catholics com- mit in this image and idol worship. Here the reverend gentleman read from the Old Testament the most auful denunciations of God against those who make iduli., bow down before images, or worship them. The Lord pronounced that they should be accursed. " But it shall come to piss, if tr.ou wiit not hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to obstrve to do all his commandments and his statutes, which 1 command thee this day, that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee. Cursed shall thou be in the city, and cur'sed shalt thou be in the field ; cursed shalt be thou, thy banket and thy store ; cursetl shalt be the first of thy body, and the first of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep ; cursed shalt tl^ou bt? when thou goest out. The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, veication, and rebuke, in all that thou ■ettest thine hand unto for to tl.i, because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hunt forsaken me. Tlte Lure! shall smite thot m ! III i'vii ! rH^ ^lr> Thte Discission. with a consumption, and with a fevelr, an^ with an inflamation, and with an extreme burning, and with th^.^sword, and with blastings and with mildew ; and they shall pursue till thou perish. Tliou fthalt carry much seed out into thy field, and gather but little in, for the locust shall consume it. The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high, and thou shalt come down very low." Yes, my friends, the stranger was lifted up above you, and what made my heart bleed when I was in a foreign and a strange land was, to see the universal contempt that was poured upon my countrymen. I found my Roman Catholic countrymen degraded and despised wherever I went. Have not those curses fallen upon our country 1 Are there not beggary, misery, and vice, where God intended it should be universal happiness, prosperity and peace ! Look to all the Roman Catholic countries in the world , and see how they are accursed with poverty. Look at Italy, the land of immorality and assassination — a den of thieves. Look at Spain, formerly the land of despotism and bigotry, now the land of anar- ichy, confusion, and bloodshed, where it may be truly said that eve- ry man's hand is raised against his brother, and his brother's hand raised against him. Look at Portugal, the clime of degradation and ignorance. Austria, bound up in the thralls of despotism and igno- rance, through which no light can break, the home of hopeless, men- tal, and national slavery. Look at Naples, where the poor die in the open streets unheeded by the veiled prophets of a luxuriating apostacy. Go into England, and see what a different prospect meets the eye. Evety man there stands erect in the dignity of manhood. There there are no beggars : the poor man demands as a right a maintenance in the land of his birth. They have poor laws, against which so much has been said. The reverend gentleman says/fhat before the Reformation there was no need of poor laws — thdt the poor were fed. Aye, they got the cold cobbagc from the monks; but I make no doubt that any den of thieves, who would be allow- ed to plunder the people, would dole out to them a miserable pit- tance as long as they were allowed to continue their robbery. This, Sir, is Popery. In effect the spirit comforteth me. I feel that I have the true spirit within me ; and I call upon you to mark the conse- quences of this dreadful apostacy. I call upon you to come out from this fearful apostacy ; and I point out the way to you, and show you that nothing can cleanse you from your sins, but what is found in the true church of Christ. I am sorry that the discussion draws to a close, Ci.' I would go more into detail. Here the half hour ended. -^ ^- •> ^ ''''■ ^'i Rev. Mr. Maguire then proceeded as follows : — You have alU my friends, hep'd a most admirable diatribe, and a most fierce and noisy scolding, from my opponent. You have heard him again dealing in his loose and empty assertions, totally disregarding all sound scripture proof and authority. I am glad of it; for when ihis discussion appears before the world, it will be seen who it wns that relied upon the holy scriptures and upon the most unimpeachable authority for his proofs, and who it was that dealt in loose assertion and'idle declamati'^n. Again, my friends, you will see in a minute NINTH DAY— THURSDAY- fllT or two who it is that relies upon the scriptures for his proofs, and who takes from those scriptures the true meaning. He read to you all the long list of curses contained in nearly the whole ufthe Old Testament ; and he had the hardihood to assert those curses were intended for Popery and the church of Antichrist, whereas, in the very text from which he read, it is expressly mentioned that curses were directed against the Jews, for their hard-hearted obstinacy, idolatry, and ingratitude to God, who brought them out of ihe land of Egypt and of bondage, and gave them bread from heaven. Yes, Sir, I charge you with having deliberately misquoted nnd misap- plied the holy scriptures. Those curses, which you have impiously dared to say were to fall on the head of Popery, were all expressly and plainly directed against the idolatrous Jews who, notwithstand- ing that God brought them out from under the tyranny and oppres- sion of Pharoah, and revealed himself to them in all his glory, they were still worshipping idols, and sighing to get back to the flesh- pots of Egypt. They would rather live with Pharoah, and have the flesh-pots of Egypt, than to follow God through the slightest tribu- lation or suffering. So it is with you, Mr, Gregg, and the founders of your church. You would rather have the flesh and the flesh>pots every day you could get them, than live in the church where there was anything like self-denial or abstinence. The founders of your church would rather live the slaves of their own ungovernable pas- sions, than belong to the church of Christ, where they should be under control ; and so they went out from us, and they are the apostates. You talk, Sir, of our leaving out of the catechism the second commandment. Here, Sir, is our catechism in full { see is there anything lefl out there. There is our Christian doctrine, an abridgment of which are put into the hands of young cbildr«n. Here, Sir, is our catechism for you ; and here is the commandment which you say is left out — " I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage ; thou shalt not have strange Gods before me ; thou shalt not make to thy<^ self a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in the hea- ven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things which are in the waters under the earth ; thou shalt not adore (hem nor serve them/' And now, by the way, let me here remark upon another glaring perversiou of the text with regard to this commandment, which appears in the Protestant Bible. It is a fraudulent and wil- ful mistranslation, and makes nonsense of the passage. The Pro- testant version has it— <* Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven image." Now, Hikel is the word in the original Hebrew, which every body knows who knows anything of that language, to mean a thing, and our Bible says, *' thou shalt not make to thyself any gra^ ven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, &c., and thou shalt not adore them, nor worship them." But you say thou shalt not make to thyself a graven image, an image is a likeness, so that you are not to make a graven likeness, nor the like- ness of that likeness, (for if it be an image in one place it is so in the other), nor bow down to it, nor worship it. There, Sir, is a ProteSf tant absurdity, and a Protestant perversion in the very command* 3n h 218 THE DISCUSSION, U^ It W^ ment which you dared to aay we meddled with. We left it as w found it in God's holy word, but you impiously and blasphemounly meddled with it. Thus, Sir, I retort upon you, and show up at the same time your ignorance, and the groundlessness of your assertion (clieers), I beg, my friends, there may be no manifestations of ap. pluuse. You do not more than wasta my time. Just leave him to me quietly. This is the last day. The reverend gencleman then continued. So much, Sir, fui* our cntcchism ttnd the 2d command- ment, which ymi ha\ p said we have left out o\ uur Eiblo. No, Sir, we adore nothing hut the one tree God, end there is not a proCessor of the faith all over the world who worships anything else. Now, I proceed with my demonstration with regard to the real nature of our invocation of srJiits ; and I heg of you, my Protestant friends, to attend to me and judge ibr yourselves vvho is it that is best sup« ported by the scri[)ture8. He told you a great many caUimnious • stories ti'ithout giving one single proof with regard to them. He told you ,we worshipped idols. Now, we holu there is no orime greater than idolatry ; hut uc liold that no Christian who believes in the Revelation, can at all he guilty of it. We pay honor to saints and angels, but. it is the honor that we pay to uur fathers and mo* thers ; we call upon those holy intelligencers, who are ministering before God, to intercede for u-? ; and if I do not show you that we are borne out by tise scriptures in doing so, I will give up this part of the case. If, further, I do not show that the communion or in- vocation of saints was tS'.c doctrine of the church at the time when Mr. Gregg admits it, I wD] acknowledge that he has triumphed. We invoke the Virgin Mary and the saints ; and now, Protestants, pttend to my demonslraiion and mark the difference between i^s. He turns up his eyes to heaven, end talks of syllogisms and of idols, of Pagans and of Popery, Ho deals in loose assertions, in curses and imprecations against the whole Christian world who are not within the cl.urch of t^uther. I deal in the scriptures, and in authorities which, if ho h^d common consistency or common hones- ty, he could not reject, I deal with the fathers of the church, at a time when he admits it was pure. I deal in the authorities of his own church; but he has the heatt to stand up in the face of a Christian assembly, and say, that he casts the scriptures overboard. He told us yesteiday evening that he hitd the Bibje by chance, and It is not unlikely that that assertion was preparatory to his throwing it overboard, and setting up his own opinion, guided by the Spirit, ns pp.ramount to nl). Should he do so, there will be no cause of surprise for it. put new, my Protestant friends, to my proofs, and follow me whilit I produce them in rapid succession. First, in the Apocalypse, 1st. chapter, " Grace be unto you, and peace that is, that was, and tiiat is to como, and from the seven spirits that are before his thione,'" Now I wi!i ask if these spirits in heaven, which are represented by tiir- seven tiitVs of t!man then commnnd- No, Sir, I proiessor !. Now, I 1 nature of nt friends, } best sup- :aU)mnious hem. He ) no RriiTie lo believes or to saints rs and tdo< ministering rou that we Lip this part tnion or in- time when triumphed, 'rotestants, )etween qs. ims and of isertions, in rid who are iires, and in mon hones- ;hurch, at a irities of his^ le face of a overboard, chance, and is throwing ' the Spirit, no cause of proofs, and ?irst, in the cace that is, ts that are aven, which ad no re- veil, would nds, I pro- )ject, short liable con-> ditioD. I will show hin the difference between tupreme worship and religious worship ; and if he have the smallest particle of com- n)on honesty he will give up his charge of idolatry against the Ca? ^hqlicst Again, my friends, I refer him to Genesis, 23d chapter 7(h V. : there he will find the following : « Abraham rose up and $owed down to the children of the land, to wit, the children of ^eth." Aga>o> in Genesis you will find that when Jacob went |l>efore his son Joseph, h^ bow^d down before him ; and in Ge- nesis, c. 43, Vf 26 i « Then Joseph came into his house, and they, offering him the presents^ holding them in their hands, they bowe^ down with their fapes to the groi^nd." Again, Genesis, 33d chap- t:er 8d v.—" And Jacob went forwarc) and bpwed down with his face to the ground seven times until his brother Esau p^mp near." Now, will Af r. Gregg say that Jacoh (committed an act of idolatry ' in bowing down or payfiig honnaije to his brother ? Next, 1st,. Chro? nicies, ch. 29 v. 20i " And David commanded all the ^89e!i^bly~ Bless ye the Lord our God, and all the assemhly blessed the Lord Qod of their fathers, and they howefl themselves and \yor8hipped Pod, and then the King." Now, will any say that thiey *pai4 the same worship to the King that they did to GqjI f They worshipped God and honoured the King. We ^yorship pod, we honour the holy saints who are in heaven before him, and we pray to them to intercede fpr us. The whole of the apt is in the intention. If we bow down before the shrine of a holy saini: we worship God, whilst we honour the memory of the saint. It is not in the act of bowing down that idolatry consists ; it is in the intention the whole of the crime is ; but I tjell you that nq Christian can be an idolater. We prostrate ourselves before ^ King, we do the same before God, but what a fanatic and wilfully malignant being must any man be who would say that op tha^ account we were guilty of idolatry ? Again, my friends, I will bring yoi^ to Joshua e^n^ the angel ; and let me tell you before I go further, that I am quoting all from your Protestant Bible". M And Joshua fell pn his face to the ground, and worshipping saidi « What saith my Lord to his servant '^' '* The Angel, mark yoiij had describe4 himself as a Captain of the host of the Lprd. Well, and what 4o you think the Angel said to Joshua ? He said to him, * loose thy shoes from off thy fept, for the place where thoii st^ndest is holy eround.' You will not admit that any place can he holy.- Qh, Sir, you must come to me to be instructed, and t will give you tht^t instruction from out the Bible, which you pretend so well to un4er9tai)d. Again, I refer you to thje ^ook of Kings, where, in two distinct passages, where Dayit} fell dowp and adore4 Saul, flat tQ thjB ground. Oh, if ^r. Gregg were to see any of us doing (!)at, \ipw he would bawl and bellow. Here is honour to be paid to the kings, and is nq tfqnpur to be paid to the saints an4 martyrs of ,|esu8 Christ t Again, I refer you tp St. Paul to the Romans. The apos^p there says — "Give ijntp pU mep theiir due-i^tribute to wnqiii ^ribt^tc, custom to vyhp^n custoin, fear tq whom fear, honour |lo \yhpm honour." Read again, Apoca: lypse, 94 phapter an4 ^th verse—'* Behold I will make them come ^nd adore Ijefpre thy feet." Mr. Gregg spuku yesterday of the AC li^i if m m lis m k n^ -li: 220 •THE DISCUSSroy. the prophet Daniel, add' referred to the «tone hewn out of the motut'' tain, but he omitted one pai^t of the passage. Now, my friends, I will show you how they manage the Holy Bible, iTid how he, at well as the founders of his church, can pervert it. Hei'e is the pas- sago from Daniel entire, " Thus thou sawest well a stdne was cut out of the mountain without hands, and it struck the statue upx>n the feet thereof, that were of iron and of clay, and broke them in pieces— then was the iron, the clay, the brass, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of a summer^s thresh- ing floor, and they were carried away by the wind, and there was so place found for them, but the .'one that struck the statue be- came a great mountain and filled the whole earth.'' It is lamenta- ble that be did not mention to you that before the passage conccrn- irg this stone being hewn out, there is another passage wnich shows r hat it refers to the Cbriiffan church. Who cad ever doubt or ever doubted that this stone refeittd to the Christian dhufch 1 The stone hewn out was Jesus ChriMV and the great mountain Was' JSh chiTch, which struck against the Pnffat dationa of the earth, alid broke them into clay. Now, Sir, arises oUt of this passage a ques- tion v'hich I again demand of you to answer — where was this stoned for the SOO years and more 1 Where was the stone which he yes- terday threatened to fling against my forehead and crumble me into dust ? It was no where to be found ; there was no Goliath to sling it. Now, Sir, I again refer you to Matthew, 1 1th chapter and 1 1th verse — " Verily, I say unto you, among them that are born of wo- men there hath not ri'ien a greater than Jolin the Baptist ; notwith- standing, he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." ]f it was lawful to pay honour to John the Baptist, is it not lawful to pay honour to the saints in heaven, the least of whdm is greater than he who was the greatest prophet the world ever saw^. who was. when on earth, the next to Jesus Christ himself. Again, in the Apocalypse, 19th chap. lOlh verse, where the angel of the Ihecy m ptattx^ ut whi^h thai which is perfebt ll come, then that which it in patt ahall be done away." In Acts, 5th chapter, we i'ead of Ananias be-< ing chai-ged by Peter — ** Ananias, why hath Satin fiUeJ thy heati to He to the Holy Ghost."^ Here it it matiifett that P^ter knew what was jiassing within the breast of Aiaanias at the tit»e— >and if Peter, while yei; on earth, could thus know the secret thoughts of another a bosom, how much more justly may we believe that htf Dvould khbw what passed here after his glorious removal to heaven t The saints Ate not ignorant of what is passing here on earth, and from thesis passages it is plain that thev can and will help us. Apo- calypse^ 2d (chapter, 26th verse — « And he that overcometh and keepeth ihV Mrorks unto the end, to him will I give power over the nationiii Ahd he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a pottei^ fehall they be broken to shiver^. ' Your church, Mr, Gregg) i the Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are told that th« graces of the Holy Ghost are seven^folu, and here we have them distinctly pointed out. This passage is no more tlian a paraphrase on the Holy THnity, and docs not it appear clear to you that by the seven spirits is meant the Holy Giiost, and that nothing else Isould be meant. The Father and the Son are invoked, and it would appear rather strange that the Holy Ghost should be passed ovei^ and the angels or soVen spirits, substituted in its place. So much for Mr. Muguire's argument founded on that text. Mr. Maguirg is fond uf adoring Jacob, and kings, and what not. He may adore kings and great men as long as he pleases ; but we ahall adore God alone. With regard to the text quoted by Mr..Maguire about wor« shipping God and the king, the viorship paid to them was very di6> ferent. Mr. Maguihe — That is exactly what I' say. Mr. Gregg — But when we have the spirit invoked to come and possess an image, when we have men kneeling before them, and adoring them, it is quite a different thing. That is the dross which is opposed to true religion^ to the Spirit of God. He quoted the text of Joshua falling down and worshipping an angel. Gow, I ani satisfied to let the whole issue of this discussion rest upon that text i and I promise you, sir, to convict you of a darkness of intellect, ot a perversion of understanding that will make your friends ashamed of you. Don't you know, sir, and if you don't you oUght to know) that the angel was the great Jehovah— it was the angel of the bo- venant, Jesus Christ ; the very rending of the text should have told you so, for he says — " Loose the shoes from off thy feet for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground ;" and e figures and images are overthrown, and (here. Sir, )'ou are overthrown, and which of Ihe saints will you (inn to ? You talk of Sairiue! and (he tvitch of i^ndor , and don't you know, Sir, that is Ihs general opinion of the best commcnialors that ever wrote, that it wai not Samuel who appeared at all, but the devi). The wi(ch wa« guilty of lies, and alio could not draw down a prophet, butsba could raine the devil whose sole purpose was to drive Saul lo d(*spair. if you now, Sir, appeal lo (he in(erference of the devil, you are rather more hardly driven thon I even thought. At to Tobias, I throw him overboard. I shall now quote for you the 1st episilc to theCorinihiam?, 13 chapter — " For we know in part, and we prophecy in part ; but when that which is petfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'' The reverend gentleman was proceeding to give his expla. nation of the passage, when his half-hour ended. Rev. Mr. Maguire.— 1 beg leave to tell you, gentlemen, that it is of us he has been speaking. It is we that only know and prophecy in part ; but when we come to the mansions of glory in the presence of our God we will know and understand the entire. And did he not quote a text which exactly went to prove that ? He asks me to prove that the saints both hear and can help us, and I will do so ; but before I proceed to that I will convict him of perversion of (he holy scriptures. You tell me, Sir, (hat it was Christ Jesus that Joshua wor. shipped ; why. Sir, is it not said (hat (he angel whom be wor- shipped was a Captain of the Hosts of (he Lord, and is (hat a proper title for the Lord of Hosts himself? You say (hat it was the same angel (hat spoke to Moses. Why, did not (he Lord say to Moses, when giving him the commandments, " I am tbo Lord thy God ;" and is it not expressly declared that it was only an angel that spoke (o Joshua 1 Now, how could he be only a Captain of (he Hosts of (he Lord, if he were (he Lord himself 1 I would be glad you would satisfy (he meeting on that head. You talked of commentators. I wish you would produce them. I wish you would give me any reason for say- that it was not Samuel himself that was raised by the 936 THE DISCUSSION^ II witch of Endor. Now, as to our using a number of mediatori?, we all hol4, Sir, (hat Christ is the only mediator. You admit, that (he sain(s can henr us, and yet you say they know nothing about us. What good is J heir hearing if they can't under, stand 1 You talk, then. Sir, of asking a fellow creature, miles away from us, to pray for us ; as ridiculous. Why, did not St. Paul ask people ihousnnds of miles from him to pray for him to the Lord. Oh, Sir, you may turn up your eyes in surprise, as you do at most that I say. Did he not write to the Colos. sianstopray forbini 1 did he not write to t^e Ephesians and Galatians for the same purpose 1 He did not know if all (hat he wrote to were alive, but he knew that even if they were not, th^y knew what was going on on earth, and that he would have their prayers before the throne of God. Now, Sir, you wani a text to prove (hat the Saints do pray for us. | refer you to Zacharifth, ctj^pter 1, verse 12— *' Then the angel of the ti'^rd answered and said, O I^ord of Hosts, how long wilt thou not have meroy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah again:^ which thou bast bad indignation these three score and ten years," Theie is an angel praying to the L,ord for Jerusalem, and now, gentlemen, J beg of you to attend- Mind what the Lord says in answer, " And the Lord answered the angel and talked, with good and comfortable words." Thus the angel of the Lord having prayed for the city of Jerusalem, and the en- tire Jewish nation, the Lord heard his prayer, and gave him a favoqrahle answer. Now, there's a text (hat goes directly to prQye that angels do intercede for men,^ I would be ghd that yo« would answer it. It would give me great satisfnction, and no doubt it would be pleasing to all the gentlemen present. JNow, what was the precise answer of the Lord ? and re- member that I take all these texts from the Protestant Bible. Therefore, thus said the Lord of Hosts. ^' I am jealous for Je- rusalem and Sion, with a great jealousy. And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease,, for I was but a Utile displeased and (hey helped forward the alllictioa.'* ** Therefore," saith the Lord, " I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies ; my bouse shall be built in it," saith the Lord of Hosts^ " and a hue shall be stretched forth upon lerusalem." Thus the I^ord yielded to the prayer of (he angel, and because of it had mercy upon Jerusalem. I now defy you (o proiuce a eingle text contradictory of that in the whole Bible ; and is jt not clear proof that the Lord listens to the prayers of his angels in favour of man. Now I refer you to 1st Kings ,15th chapter, and 4th verse, ^f JVevertheless, for Pavid's snke, did ^he Lord his God give bini a lamp in Jerusalem to set up his son after him." Thus you see, for David's sake, who was long 49^ At the time, the I^ord did this* Again, did not the Lord NINTH DAY— THURSDAY. 99f diators, admit, lolhing under. }, miles not Sf. for hi in surprise, i Colos. ins and all that rere not, 3 would 3ir, you cfer you I of the v'Ai thou again^ and ten rusalem, what the ngel and angel of the en- ve hirn a rectly to r!ad that tion, and present, and re- nt Bible, js for Je- very sore \s but a miction-'* erusalem e Lord of nsalem." 1 because proiuce ; and is rs of hid ngs ,15th siike, did et up his was long the Lord Erotect Je*'usaleni from the Assyrians on account of his servant •avid ] Again, he says I quoted from Job, and Ije maintains that the answer from Job's fiiend, Eliu^, means that the angela could do nolhiitrr for him. Well, i caro not if it does n»eaii that, for I quoted the pjissagc only to sliow that it was a very ancient and general practice to invoke the intercession of nngels' — Sir, 1 will soon retort your arguments upon yourself. I refer you now to Jeremiah, chap. 15, verse 1-r-" Then said the Lord unto me, though Moses and Samuel stood hofore me, yet my mind could not be toward thi^ people : cuaf Miem out of my sight, and let them go forth." Now attend to that, my brethren. Moisesand S:imuel were both long deal, yet the Lord said if they were before him, ihnt is, if they prayed tp him, he would not hear them, clearly showing that they could pray for the people. Let me ask you also, would God Almighty say that be would not haar them in thnt particular case, if he never heard them in any ? How did the Lord act when Mosea interceded for the Israelites 1 fSb begged him not to interfere between his wrath and the people ; but Moses did pray for them, and for the sake of one man, and that a man whom he did not permit to enter the Holy Land, for his want of faith, pardoned the entire nation. But remember also that Moses waa then a humnn being like ourselves ; and if God will listen tq and grant the prayers of a sinner who was deficient in faitb, bow mucU more effect may we expect to be produced by the intercession of saints and angels. When be said of St. Johi) the Baptist that he was " more than a prophet," and that *' among them that are born of women, they bad not arisen f^ greater man than John the Baptist." What may we not ex» Eect from the prayers of that saint, and of others, when tl:^ey ave entered the kingdom of heaven. I now refer you Iq Ezekiel, chap. 15, verse 15 — "Though the three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness." Now mark here how he miifcs one dead with two living persons, to show that (he dead car) intercede for their fellow men as well as the living ; but $q offended was God with the Jews that he would not hear them. Again, I refer you to the Apocalypse, chap. 5. verse 8— r" ^"4 wheii he had taken the book the four beasts and four.andv twenty elders fell down before the lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials, full of odours, which are the prayers of the saitUs." There now. Sir, what do j^ou say to that? Tbe prayers of the saints are contained in the goldei) censor, and they were presented to Ood by the four^and^ twenty elders. Is not that a glorious proof of the communion of saints 1 Is it not a proof that the saints in heaven intercedo for tbeir fellpw,creatures oii eartl)7 Ar)d now. Sir, is it q. dfs, I^PQocir to Qod ^0 beg of the saints and angels to intercede fQ)i AP li ■iiii fiS8 TH£ DISCUSSION. youl IfayitisnoU WS acknowledisfe that Jesus Christ !• our Sovereign mediator, and that on him alone we depend. How, then, is it derogatory to him to havo mediators under him be- tween him nnu man 1 If he has saved them by shedding^ bis blood for them^ is it not likely that he will listen to iheir prayers for those for whom n\9o he »hcd his blood 1 There now are the scriptures fur you. Oh, you may laugh and gnash your teeth a? the Jews did at our Saviour (laughter, hisses and cheers.) That is your answer to me for whatever authority I give you for my doctrines (Inughler and cheers.) Again, gen. tlemen, you will find what he says, and how he proves it. You have heard him talk of commentators, and he says he has them to produce in favour of his interpretation of (he scriptures. I wisn he would produce them— I defy him to do so. Now, gen- tlemen, I beg of you to be attentive for a moment. I refer you BOW, Doctis&imo Uomine Gregg (iunghter) to Luther's work on the drst commandment. [He rend a pass^ago from it to the effect that he objected to using the intercession of the saintti in temporal affairs, and (hat the chuich said to Puul, oiapro tlo6f«.] Now, Sir, there*s a passage from the father of your church. 1 refer ym\ now to tome G of the German edition, page 31, on the ^lagnificat. (He rend another passage to the effect that the Blessed Vergin should be prayed to. ) Now, there's making a petticoat for the Virgin Mary. There's Luther making a petticoat for you (cheers and hisses.) Now, Sir, where is your binsphen.ous language about the mother of Godi I tell you, Sir, we have the (rue respect for things holy, though we do not worship any but one God. hut I know you will say, " What is Luther to mc ; I don't care for him." Well, Sir, listen to him again — listen to what he says of a man in orticvlo nwrlis. (He read for him a passage the effect of whicii was, that in the hour of death a man ehould call upon Mary and all the saints to intercede for him.) Now, Sir, I will refer once more to Bishop Montague, for whom you have such little respect, and whom you relisli so little, i'>ough he was a suffi- ciently bitter enemy of the Roman Cr.taolics. (He read a pas. Mge from a work of bis to the effect that the saints do interpose and mediate between God and Man.) Now, Sir, where is your orthodoxy — where is your piety — ^where is the strictness of your doctrine ? You will find in " The invocation of the Saints," page 118, the following (He read a passage to the effect that it is no impiety to say " Mary, or Paul, or Peter, pray for me.**) Oh, Lord, do you hear that! There's a Pro- testant for you. What will you say now 1 The translators of an ancient work say that the invocation of the saints was practised in the fourth century, and that Pope Gregory, by ^ whom half Europe was converted, and who sent Austin into ' England, practiced and recommended it. Prudentiua also tells NINTH DAY— THURSDAY. S29 9t it our . How, him be- ing bis 10 iheir ire now gnash 3CS nnd tioiity I in, gen. it. You as them Lircf). 1 iw, gen. jfer you work on to the e sninttf 01 a pro of your edition, e ton Mary 11 refer ch little suffl- d a pas. iterpoee is your ne68 of of the to the r Peter, tt Pro. tors of ts was ory, by in into so tells us that it was the practice of the church in those early days. So much, Sir, for your pure church—so much for your gold. What er will you give to that, I'd like to know 1 In the rejoin- nnswer der to Bristoe you will find this— (He read a passage admitting that Ambrose, Austin, Jerome, Basil, buih the Grcgories, and many others ufcd to prncii<:c ihfi invocation of the saints.) Now I refer you to Thornaikc, whom I have so often. quoted before. iHe read a passage lo the effect that Basil, Nazianzen, Austin, eromo, and all the saints, mentioned the doctrine of the inter. Gesdion of saints.) Now whcre's youi Protestant authority 1 Where's the impudence with which you accuse us of apostacy, when the njembera of your own church—yes, and distin. guished meiYibers — acknowledge and adopt the very doc" irines on which you grot'nd yaiir charge ? Now, Sir, Pll give you another quotation from your own Y^ook, one word in which you :'»re not deny, and to the truth of every word of which you are bound by a solemn oath. Now, Sir, I will give you a prayer from your own prayer book, (we read a prayer be- ginning with *' O everlasting God,'' and ending with a prayer to lend his holy angels to wntch over and succour and defend us through Christ our Lord) — (cheers and hisses,) " That they may succour and defend us'' (cheers.) Now, Sir, indeed, what do you say 1 Where's your genuine Protestant piety ? Now, Sir, you must adopt this, for to every word in the book you have to swear (" no,,, from Mn (*regg.) Now, Sir, where's your blasphemy? Now, how can you, a wretched, withering member of an heretical church, dare to attack the religion of, I may sav, the whole world, (great groaning, hissing and cheering.) Gentlemen, recollect that these expressions have been extorted from me, and I am exceedingly sorry for having used them. You must, however, admit that I have had provocation — when lam told that my church and its doc- trines are damnable — wlien you tell mc ehat I am damned (no, from Mr. Gregg.) Why, Sir, you told mc- :hat you and I would be separated in heaven ; that is, that you would be on the right and I on the left. I tell you that to use such language is blasphemous presumption and ignorance. Now dare 3'ou, sir, presume to say who will be saved, or who will not ? Now can you presume to say that you are inspired ? Will you show me any text of Scripture that says thot the Rev. Mr. Gregg, of Swift's Alley, will be raved*} We are told that " no man knoweth whether he is worthy Oi love or hatred i" Now, v here is your dnmnnMe parnllcM (The Rev, Mr. Gre^ghere shook one ofhis mops at the ieverend gentleman) (roars of laugh ler and hisjes.) No;v, he spooks of Daniel. Let him ijoK to tlu; very verse hciore that wliich he quoted. I say our church is the stone which was to gro'.v into a large mountain ; and the poverty with which yon upraid us is a never-failing mark of the truth of the clvu-ch, and the persecution which she has suffered on account of the drjcirines v/hich tve teach is a convincing proof of their truth. Let him ri»ad in Daniel, •' And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven cct up a kingdom which shall never Ml :'l :'^ *!; ,. r 'i: ^50 TitE DiSCUSSlONi I" I; be destroyed ; and the kingdom shall not be led to other people { but it «)iall break ici pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it ehnll stand for ever." Now, Sir, tell n;e what church but ours can be signified by that ? Our church is tlie church that has broken to pieces alt the heresies that have ever sprung up in the world. I have eighteen councils, which I will read to you, with the Pv.,)e8 that presided at tliem, arid tlie heresiarches who were condemned by them. Ours, then, is the stone signified in the prophecy, and it has indeed, grown into a mountain. Christ said, " Thou art Peter," that is a rodk> *' and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall hot prevail against iti'* Now, Sir, who condemned Bimon Magus, Menander, Parcel ian, and the rest who held that JatriUf or divine honour and sacrifice should be given to the saints. Who condemned the Eunomians, Micheans, Manichsans, and the re9t ? I ask you now where was the stone which was to grow into a mountain if your church was the stone for the 600 years that you 99y it wcs invisible. During that SOO years, according to you, there Was no Protestantism (« no,'' ft-om Mr. Gregg.) I say yes, and tell me where was the stone then 1 (the Rev. Mr. Gregg again dis< t^Iayed, and shook the map») Oh ! Mr. Gregg, I doiiHsee your invi- j|ible church in that map, (cheers and hisses, amid which Mr. Oregg lield up the other map.) You see, gentlemen, where he has poduced these pictures for the condemnation of himself. The i&riptures says that a man shall tell a lie to his own condemnation. He would not be satisfied till by showing the picture he made it cleJEir that he was telling a bit of a fib in saying that the true church WHS invisible when it never was. That map is indeed a picture of the triie church, and it exhibits it as being purged of the dross of heresy. I tell, you, Sir, we are the true church, and in everything which vou advance as a proof of the truth of your church's doc- trine} Simon Stilectes, talk as you like, was a holy man ; and in „Qur church all the holy men of every age are to be found. Christ said that he would preserve his church immaculate —he would pre- serve it for ever. How could he do so, if he gave it over into the hands of the blasphemous Luther and Calvin. I have given him a vast number of proofs of various kinds of doctrines of the inter- . cession of saints and angels. I could give him the holy fathers also, . but he hates them ; for be knows right well they would be against him. Why, Sir, I thought that at least they would be honest wit- nesses, no matter on what side. That's another proof of his con- listencjr. He refuses to receive the doctrine of the very saints that he has in his own calendar. He blames us for honouring the saints. ■ Does he not consecrate his own churches to their honour and in their names? Does he not consecrate them to Michael, and Peter, and Paul, and others innumerable of the saints and angels ? I do not appeal to the fathers as infullible, but I did think, and I do think, that they are honest witnesses. They were holy martyrs, and glorious confessors, and yet one of the new infidels refuses to receive iheir testimony. Why, Sir, you are like Voltaire, and Rousseau, and Diderot ; you will believe nothing. You care not for Dr. Taylor, . Bishop Montague, Dr. Parker, Purdon, or any other of the Pro^- NINTH iJAY—TiltJRSDAY StI iestant writers that T have quoted. No, no, you tare not for any individual because you are inspired. Thus are heresy and infidelHy' dovetailed together. [Here a book was handed up to the Rev. Mn Gregg, whicli he put off the tabic. ] I object to any book beinr handed up in this way. We will have nothing surreptitious— we wil^ have every tiling foir and honest, and open (cheers and hisses.) Nowj gentlemen, hear me for a moment, and I will give you one' other text. Since the cross has been blasphemed, I will give you » text to show you tliat it should be honoured. Now, I refer you to 1st Corinthians, chapter I, verse 18, « For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness ; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God." You laugh at us for making the sign of thi» cross on our foreheads, but I say we will preserve the cross and honour it in spite of all that is done to the contrary; Again^ to Grft* latians, chapter 6, verse 14 — "^ But God forbid that I should glory^ save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world Is crucified to me and I to the world." You talk of bowing to Jesus* How do you bow to him? Do yoU bow to him in the sacrament t I ask you what is In it but bread and wine 1 If there be any thing I ask you what is it but Jesus t If there be nothing there you are guilty of what you charge against us. I tell you, sir, that the Die- senters charge you with it, and therefore they leave you. I tell yoU that every argument which you advance against me, I retort with double force in the name of the Dissenters. Lactantius« a great and pious man, and the instructor of the son of Constantine the GreMi says — ♦ ''. ' "■ ■'"■-- ■'•^^ , Here the reverend gentleman's half-hour ended. Mr. Gregg — Then, the reverend gentleman has talked of tren*" substantiation. Now, sir, I propose that we have another day fbf discussing tliat subject. Will you (turning to the Rev. Mr. Maguire) meet me upon that occasion? Wliere does truth lie 1 He talks or being in a rage. Oh! that is evidence that he is standing on a shaking bog. He talks of bowing to the name of Jesus. Hesays^ hail master, like his prototype, Judas, and then sells him for thirty pieces of silver. Then again we have the cross. Oh, sir, these are the delusions which are tiie destruction of our counitry, (laughter)^ You will think it ver\- odd wh'?n I tell you that in his quotations from Luther he rend passages from his works written before his con- version. I have iiis sermons on the commandments here where he expressly says that he wished his former theology should beburned% He quoted the text where God said he would spars the Israelites on P.ivid's account, as if God would not promise mercy to the third and fourth {generation of the just man ; and he therefore concludes that the invocation of siaints ii lawful. There is a nnn sequitur fur you. I never s.jid the saints heard us or our prayers, but 1 said thsit I had reason to believe there was joy in heaven for the conversion of a sinner. So fa from saying that they did hear us. I gave an illustration witli regard to ilic heavenly bodies to show that they could not, hy any possibilit}', !;ear us. Again, he says that the an- gel before whom Jo^liua fell down, was captain of the Lord's hostst and that therefore he could not be, as I argued h& was, the- 1 ord^ ' ^ ■ ft ■ i'l' , -J • i'i ■ I 'I J- yt 'I ''^ -# tst tHE DISCUSSION* Is not Jevui invariably called captain in the Old Testament ; and it he not the Saviour of our souls ? He then quoted the followine text from Zachariah — **Here the angel of the Lord answered and said) O Lord of HostSt how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jeru- ■alem and on the cities of. Tudea, against which thou hast had in* dignation three score and ten years." I say if he knew anything about the Hebrew language, he would know that the angel spoken of in this way is the Jehovah, and that that languge is common in the Old Testament, when any passages occur which have reference to Christ. Now, sir, I have answered cH your quer ions, (great laughter.) I have answered them, and my proof is, that the- reve- rend gentleman runs away, (a laugh). This fact will be known in Ireland, and throughout the world for ages yet to come, who will see the effects and mischiefs of Popery. The reverend gentleman tells us about saints and images, and that to reverence them is not idolatry. I wonder that he labours under such a delusion. Here I have a book, printed in 1796; which Knives an account of prodigies performed in Rome. The work is published by Keating, a book^ seller in London, and translated from the French, by the Rev. Mr. Raymond. In that it is stated that images in the chapels at Rome used to lift up their eyes and look nt the congregation. One on the high altar of St. Nicholas used, during the sncriflcc, to open its eyes and look upon the people, and, at the time of consecration, look towards the altar. These things are said to be attested and svvorn to by a great many witnesses. Another statue of tho Virgin Mary was seen to have a clear c Jour, and used also, during the time of sacrifice, to open its ej'es and move the pupils. I could give you a score of instances of the same kind, got up to delude man. There we have the ground for the assertion made of miracles being per- formed in thechurch, which show that the church of Rome is the church of Antichrist. I was going to speak of the spirit of the true religion, and to show you what the inferna! liiinu of man can do to enslave his fellow-man, and send him to perdition. In the 2d book of Kings, we find that Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha ; and Eliitha sent a messenger, saying, ' Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh sliall come again to thee, and thou shult be clean.' But Naaman was wrath, and went away and said, < lieliold, I tliought he will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his wand over the place and cover the le* {»er.* '" No, gentlemen, Naaman would not do that ; the washing timself in water was too simple a cure for him. He wanted some show, just like that which is practised novv-a^days, and commonly called priest-craft. We have the true religion springing from the fountains of Jesus Christ, and it is not so vvi*h Popery. Look to that, (exhibiting a scapular, amid the laughter i Pall present) — there is something to cure the soul of man, and to satisfy blind and dark hHiuan nature, (Idud cries of "qripstic. , quesiion'). 'I'iiis is fhe conruption which gives a plenary !!>diifg(>nie to tiic devotees of the bolv abbot or the holy frinr, as he is cnlled, who i'iiuriiled that insti- tiiUoB. That scapular will deliver the person v.ho weard it, from NINTH DAY— THURSDAY. 4sa insit- from hell fire> and from any Accident in thin world. Indeed it it said that at one time a cannon ba.. was fired at a man, and that this loapular •topped it, and prc:vented him from being killed, My dear friends, observe the trickery and the nonsense which the people of Ireland are called on to belicv?. Here is a miraculous medal, wMcb, I sup- pose, tMey will say performed more miracles than Christ himself. This h to be hung on the tester of a ued, from which great advan- tages are to be derived. They call tht: Virgin, the Queen of Hea« ven, but I shall not do so — I shall not give her a character ^vhich she is not warranted in receiving. You say she has ascended into heaven, although the scriptures have not one word about it ; and oh, sir, it is here we find the character of Popery. Of course we can't prove a negative-^we can't allege positively that such an oo^ currence did not take place ; but all Ave say is, itis not in the scrip- tures, and therefore we don't believe it. You talked of idolatry. What is this (taking up a Breviary) 1 Festum coeni Domini, the feast of the supper of the Lord ; and then there's blessing oil, and other mixtures, &c., out of which the devil is to be put. The bishop says Sancta Chrisma, Hail holy Chrism ! and, after repeating it three times, he kneels down and kisses the bottle which contains it. Is not that suiHcient to excite the wrath of a jealous God, who would ** t allow Moses, for being guilty of a want of confidence in his fiower, io enter the Holy Land. And here we have the priest say- pf^, " Hail, holy oil !" and bowing down to adore it, (here the reve* rend gentleman 'mitated the bowing down, amid great laughter), i ask you, gentlemen, in ti.ri u^ce of the living God, is not that blasphemy, and are not such practices dreadfully injurious to the honor of the Lord Most High ? They have holy oil, and holy wa- ter, and holy salt, and holy ashes ; and I tell you jour very baptism {b invalid — it is corrupt. You maixe crosses, you anoint, and you profane, as if to drive away ten thousand devils, (loars of laughter). You tell me that it is lawful to bless any of God's creatures. I grant you that — but r. Jt to make them the occasions of blasphem- ing, the Lord Most High. It is done to make him drive the devil out of things. How comes it that you do not proceed with a differ^! ent course ] Why not begin at the beginning (laughter) let me ask 1 Why did you say we admit the invocation of saints in our Book of Common Prayer? We do not, sir. Here is the prayer^- [|The reverend gentleman here read it out of the book, and proceed- ed] Oh, sir, it is a beautiful example of the wisdom of the church of England that it is a prayer to God alone, and not to any other creature or thing. You cannot find where it is either in our Book of Common Prayer, or in our misquoting history, which I find, on investigation, I have ot, although at the time 1 only depended on my memory : but it is not so with you. You have misquoted histo- ry and the holy scriptures, which shows, beyond any possible doubt, that the Lord God lias visited you with judicial blindness, (laugh- ter). Rise from it, rise from it^r-run away, run away from the abo- raintions cf Popery. You have spoken of Luther, and you said hie had a conference with the devil, who persuaded him to leave off say- fng private masses. No, sir, that is not the case^ he wai persuaded !:* '-ill (•1 •i' w. mk . f A THE DISCUSSION itado 10 by the Iivin|^ God, and not by the devil, who, r-h (hb contrary, pressed him to continue, but he refused, ni>>; wm px- •ceedingly right in doing 60, I now come to my ques' •■)?). Why 'don*t you begin at iho beginning,' (great Inng-hifi/*) Do n'rt the laws of the land declare that your religion i j impioua and idolatrous, and that your chi;rcli was eoiik in supevsiiiion throughout the world for eight hundred yenrs and niore] Why do you not come forward and inssist. that iho law f.hall ha repealcd--why do you not insist that you arc no longer to bo stigmatized ns an idolater, instead of uliitli you allow yourself to be branded with that appellation 1 I lell you, Sir, that if I were branded with idolatry, I would protest against it (laugh- 4er) ; and you should do so likewise, if you were in the right, .and insist that I should hn VI) no tisccndancy over you, I teil you more, Sir, that if 1 were arraigned before mi idolairoua judge* I would not plead before him, and I here protest, against any authority being givsa to idolateis. Why, b.r, and I put it to you — why have you been branded with idolatry ? — because you are an idolater (laughter.) What has been your whole business during this discussion 1 You have been disparaging Christ, by calling for proofs of the authenticity of the Holy 3ciiplures — you have been guilty of infidelity. — you condem mo because 1 believe them, and because I rejected every thing and place reliance on Jesus Christ alone, through whom we are to gel peace and pardon. Your whole business has been to attack and condemn the power of hia holy church. You rr n away from the question ; if not, (hen, I dare you to continue it* Oh, my Roman Catholic countrymen, tremble for yourselves ; and I now give notice that, as soon as my strength shall be restored, I will give a public lecture in this room, for which I got a re. quisition some time since, when I will point out to the govern. ment of the country the best mode of converting you all (great laughter ;} and convincing you (hat the truth is in Jesus. I was a weak man commencing this contest. I was nobody; but you, Sir, have gifted me with a power calculated to give ten thousand overthrows to the great apostacy — (laughter.) Tbat bus been my constant prayer to Gou for many years — prayers which I have recorded in my journals (laughter.) I Jiave seen the miseries which you were subjected to, and I prayed for you, 1 begged of the Lord to give me power to re- .move the evils, and he has gifted me with (he power. I am certain beMl grant me grace to exert that power, whereby I jnay be enabled to serve Ireland, and rescue her from her ^wieked ways, when you will abandon your apostate bishops, and your consecration, and your relip^ion, and come back to ua (loud laughter.) Do asMr. Crotiy did, come back to the Ghnrchof Christ, where you'll find peace in that Saviour, and 'glory In youir own righteousness. I pray God that my labours n NINTH DAY— THURSDAY. 231 in this \'rt-? ex- u Why Do n'xt iinpioJig iMHiiiion more '{ hhall ha r lo bo yourself lat if I (langli- le right, , I tell olatroua ngainst I put il ■been use whole laraging lie Holy idem mo i'lug and ie are to o attack away t. Oh, ; and I estored, ot a re. govern- (great Jesus. I lobody ; to give ighter.) years — ter.) I and I lo re- I am ereby I )m her ishopg, k to UR to the ur, and llabours may have that effect, I could not be belter employed. It irou^d be a great deal better for you to be out Hporiing with your dog« than be sitting with females ; and if every priest guve up that eort of Work, and >utd take and enjoy his field-sports, we should havc.our country heller than we have at present. Your efTorts do nothing but spread damnable doctrines. They demo, ralise the people, and inflict serious injury— injury on the church of Christ. Babylon the greai is fnllen I t'ailen ! fallen I Gome out of h^r, my people. Sir, the discussion is now ended, because you ran awuy (laughter.) Take my ativjce, and stay at home at Ballinamore, for thare is noi a cleigymaii i'no whosn parish you may hereafter go that will not drug you forward and expose voti. . ,' , '^* The half.hour here ended. " ' ' ^ ' Mr. Maguiru — Now, gentlemen, you will be pleaded to ob- serve that my friend here has given you a great deal of abuse and vituperation, and an immensity of assertion, but no proof (cheers and hisses. ) Mr. Nanqi.e — I beg of you to be quiet, and of every police, man in the room to bring out any one who gives any sign either of approbation or disapprobation. Rev. Mr. Maquire— He told you most distinctly ihit he came here to preach, and in all his life ha never said a truer • word. He blames me for enjoying recreation, innocent and harmless, for the sake of my health. What right has hs to i). terfeie with my mode of disposing of my leisure tim*. T>» what straits must he be driven when he begins to upbraitl inf5 for enjoying harmless recreation with my dogs, when I have discharged my duties. Rev. Mr. Gregg— I approve of it. ' * *' ' Rev. Mr. Maouire— Why, I ask, upbraid ; why blame me, (Here there was a great confusion, caused by the police bring- ing out a person who had created some disturbance.) Rev. Mr. M«Namara— This is highly improper ; I exclaim against any one creating a noise. Rev.Mr. Maguir£— I thank my God I am not a man who declares ray own righteousness ; nor am I so fanatical as to boast that I recorded my own prayers in my journal. Oh ! it is not that I want. I want to argue and to reason from the holv word of God— I give you no assertion of my own (laughter and cheers.) As far as I open the book of the scriptures and quote the word of God, I have a claim upon your attention, upon your judgment, and upon your intelligence. But when I ' gave you my own assertion, I have no claim whatever upoa you. I ask you was there ever any body of men who had a greater claim to sanctity than the Scribes and Pharisees, and what did our Saviour say of ^thcm t Why, that was the very rock upon which they split ; and onr Saviour never lost, if I 1 *i \» S99 THE DISCUSSION. may uie the word, the mildness of his nature lave in Abating them. 1 nek you now, qs a gentleman, ns a man of honour, ana as a broihcr.clergymun— since I believe you admit the ordina. lion of antichrist (" no," from the Rev. Mr. Gregg,) well, then, I appeal to you as a man of honoiK, a geutlemnn, and a man of truib, what right had von to put ii into your letter to the Rev. Mr. M'Namara llmi I declined the discussion, and (hat I should five you another day for the discussion of Den*8 Theology 1 flay before (his meeting, and I call upon the note.tnkers to tflke it down, tiiat (here were never grosser mi^itranslations, misquotntion^^nnd perverflions (hnn there uta in (he pamphlet which hns been published ; and I would undertake to prove it (•* oh, fftlae," from ox-priest Nolan, nnd greot cheeiing niul groaning.) If it be not ihc fac(, I will give up (he discussion and acknowledge mysolf bea(en. Now, 1 challenge any one to provo (he contrary. My friend tells you (hat I ar. running away and avoiding thocoutinuanceof the controversy. I psk^ nm 1 to continue here (ill Christmas arg'ui'^g with a man who never answers a single argtunent which I adduce 1 (cheers and laughter.) I ask, when I quoted Iwo.and. thirty texts, what answer did he give ? He attempted (o answer (wo tex(5, and " now," he said, " I have answered all his texts." A pretty way he answered them (cheers and hisses.) With regard to (lie angel mentioned in the Revcladons what did he say 1 Why» that (he saint worshipped him in (he same manner as the king that I mentioned in the other text in the book of Kings (" No»** from Mr. Gtegg.) I assert that that is the fact. ; Rev. Ml. Gregg — I deny it (great confusion.) Rev. Mr. Macuire — I assert thai what you said was the worship of the snint to the angel was (he kind of worship that was given to the king* Now that is just what I say. It was just the kind of worship which you would give the archbishop whilo you want a beniUce. That is the only kind of worship we pay to the angels and saints. What honour he gives the one we give the others. Now, then, let me go through the topics touched upon by the reverend gentleman. You accuse me of misquotingboth history and scripture. Now, I challenge you to point out a single misquotation in either. The report of thii discussion will go before the world. Let us both review it, and then let the world judge. But, gentlemen, you wUl see the diffi ulty I wil!. find to getbim to publish the report (cbeere and hisses.) ' Oh, he will be unwilling indeed, for he knows that the world will be astonished when it seef it, and perceives (ho manner in which he argued. He talks of Antichrist. Yfhj Sir, Henry the Eighth, the introducer o'your religion into this country, eot his title of ** Defender o/ the faith" from Anti. Christ, and your kings and queena are so Coad of it that they 'f. i, i./' .-.-^ ^ NINTH DAY— THURSDA\. 'W AbaiiniT nour, and le ordina. ^e1), (hen, . a man of the Rev. 1 1 should heology 1 .(nkers to nslnlion?, pamphlet o prove it mng niul discussion my one to . running By. I rpky man who ;heers and ixlf>, what exl9| and retty woy rd to tlie y'i Why, the king 58(««No; >» was the rship that t was just hop while p we pay e one wo he topics jse me of 3nge you >rt of this w it, and see the (cheers nows that seives the St. Why into this cm Anti. that they iay, or wimt hnve you said lo tluit. He tells us, in couimon with (ill (he veiled prophets of a luxuriating establish, mcnt, ihnl thu doctrine of the invocation of saints is damnable and iduiiiirous. How many Protestant divines have I not qtioird t^ prove that theiuvocaUou of saints is lawful and good 1 Besides them, here I have the holy fathers ; but he throws them overbuurd. Now, he says that. I quoted Luther previous to his con- version. Sir, you have made a blundering mistake (no, from Mr. Greg);). But I assert that vou did, and what's more, I tell you that he wrote the work from which he quoted, in order to become re- conciled to the Pope. So I say when Luther, the heretic, says any- thing, in contradiction to you, have I not a right to quote him against you 1 (hisses ond cheers). Gentlemen, I have good reason to use these expressions. lie may contradict you, sir, but I am to re- •concile tliat contradiction? No ; I leave it to you to do so, and I defy you to it. I have given him all kinds of authority for my doctrine* and I would have given him all the fathers also, but that he, knowing they would be against me, wouUl not receive them. " Oh/' he says I am inspired, and I don't care for them." Why, sir. I told you before that was folly. He talked of miracles. He told us that he did not know whether the miracles were performed or not, (no, from Mr. Gregg). Wliy, sir, you said that you did not know whether they are true or false miracicd ; but tiiat if tbcy were wrought, they were wrought in the anti^christian church. He talks of our blessing holy water, and other things. Don't you bless your own Pontificals ? (No, from Mr. Gregg). Well, then, sir, if you do not, give them to me and I will soon knock the devil out of them, (laughter, cheers, and hisses). You may laugh, but I tell you, you will read in the the old- est and best autliors of exorcism— 1 tell you, sir, that anything you have said is contradicted by a hundred different examples in both Testaments. Did not Moses cause the cherubim and seraphim to be set. up on both sides of the ark 1 Did be not set up the ark it- self, and (Hd not David dance before it, because it was the figure of the Lord ? Let me atsk you, is not the Bible a mere representation in words of the will of God .' You honour the Bible with a great horror, and now I tell you that we honor the saints and angels just in the way you honour the Bible, and no more. You ask me will I meet you on transubstantiaiion 1 Why, do you think I am fool enough to remain here till Christmas, and to argue with a man who v could he have left the church. You pave me no answer. Fourthly — I asked you if private judKment ^vere the Rolo rule of faith, how do you cxcuie St. Peter, and the rest of the opot- ties for condemning the Antiucheans and Judcnna. You gave no answer. Fifthly — 1 atked you tvhcrc was the relij^ion in which Lu» ther could make an act of faith, which he was bound to do under f>8in of damnation, at the time he separated from the Roman Catho- Ic church. You gave no answer. Sixthly — I avked you could yod convert a Jetv on Protestant principles. The nnswer you gave in^ was, by holding up Josuhops from the dayk of Peter and the apostles, if the church were invisible for 800 Jeafa. The result was equally unsatisfactory. Fourteenthly— I sked you how could you prove on Protestant principles the in- fepiration of the Apocalypse. You did not answer. Fifteenthly— I atked you how a lopped off branch could flourish, or u stream cut off from its fountain, continue to flow. Where i under Cotho- u could ou gavo , just at have to trith hit r corpo- O years. Id your four iin« wan not. Its from vou to -tides at atteinpt- tinn was fthly-I ind if it e autho- lible or w could om the for 800 thly— I the in- nthly— gam cut y. Six- leretical ced the You >t grey It kind lur first fght of Ere the [if they Trent a ■to DM* Kinete?nthly, I ttked you lO thow me a C«thoU«i tbtt hid btfll to nil his life, that becamv a ProtesUnt io tb« hour of death. Vm couU not mention. I told you howr many. Twantiethly, I wjiil you to prove that there were two sacraments only, and not aeefp. You did not attempt it. Twenty-first, I asked you how yon gal «HI| of the charge of apostacy, as you admitted the Scripturee «• «if authority, whom you accuse of npostacy. Did you Mewr m% {** I did,'' from Mr. Greg^.) Twenty-second, I asked you how eovld you believe the holy Scriptures to be entirely infallible, Maleitjrtv received ihem through an infallible medium. But you aty yov Mr ccived them on the authority of your own church, which yPH tdnil to be fallihio. DiJ you answer me. Tvventy-third--->] uk^fouhtm could an ignorant Protestant, on Protestont principles m^kll mi Ml of fuitli. You did nut say. Twenty-fourth—I asked yo|i (epfffliV from the bible the validity of your doctrines. You did VPtHtteMl it. Tvventy'fit'th — I asked you to prove the necessity of eApersiftlliW baptism from tiic scriptures. You did not do to* Tw«iHy»eixlih-^ asked you to prove tlie trinity from the scriptures. Y«mi leld W0 that you did not care if the text whii h proved it were struek ewl from the bible. Then I would be obliged to you, if you would 417^ The Unitarians would bo obliged to you also to prove it. Twen^^ scvcnt!) — I nskcd you to prove the consubstantiality of the fOf ff God with the futlicr, from the scriptures. You did not do so. Tvef>Urp eijjhth — I asked you to give some authority from soriptures WT changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. You did nolg and I would be obliged to you to tell me when the Lord comnMindr ed that it should be observed on the last and not the first dtyftf ihf week. What authority changed it but the church. Twenty-niiUh— I ashed you if faiih be by hearing, and hearing by the wor^S of Christ, how cc.*d there be faith during the 800 years that ther* was no one to preach the word of Christ ! and no one to hear thens. You did not attempt to give an answer to that. Thirtiethly— I askr ed you for a text to prove that it was unlawful to fast. You did not give me one, but I gave you several to prove that it was not opil tual sacrifice in your church, which Daniel foretold was to DO lawful but proper. Thirty-first — I asked you where was the stroyed by Antichrist. You did not answer me. Thirty-second — I asked you, as you admit the council of Jerusalem, which recom- mends fasting, why do you not fast, and why does your church re- ject it, though it is recommended in her Book of Common Prayer. You did not answer me ! Thirty-third — I asked you, having driyen you to admit that the fast of Lent was observed in the primitive church, which you say was pure, why it was rejected by your church, though recommended also in the Book of Common Prayer. You did not tell me ! Thirty-fourth — I asked you for a Protestant principle to prove the canonicity of the scriptures. You did not give It to me ! 1 asked you who it was gave you the scriptures, and the commnndments, and how you defend the division of the first ind the second commandments. Vou answered none of these ! Thirty- sixth — I asked you which was the private or public judgment to be preferred, and which came from the Holy Ghost. - ' J^^ Key. Mr. Gregg — IJoth. ■ "^ r f ■V m^ im THfi DlfSCfUSSIpN. Jitr. Mr. M A«VlM»-«»B(»t1t. Then, I atk you, In caw of a reTer^ 9, hoir will ydtt rcconcilt them 1 Take that down now. Then I obllgad yotf'to AditUt the divine origin of extreme unction and con- fttiion, and I Mkied you why you did not practice them ? You did iBOtfell in*. I obliged you to deny the ngiit of private judgment, fiio, from Mr, Gregg^ Oh, let the notes prove that. I'll engage It will be found that you did. I asked you to account for the four- kimh'Milai bding longer in vour Book of Common Prayer than in rNir Bible, and you admitted you could not account for it. Now, tak you ani 1 running away 1 I have been here now nine'dayti ftnd aoi I to stay here Tor ever to carry on a discussion which has re^ Mitfld-te the manner I described ? (great confusion). I hope, at dl ovfeDtt, that we separate in g^od feeling, (hear, hear). I protest tbit'I hold cfvery htiman being in love and charity, even as before thia discussion, (hear, hear). I tell you I regret the observations which have been wrung from me, not that I believe them false ! iM,^^ I protest before God, I would not utter them if I thought so, hut that I would not hurt the feelings of any class of men, (cheers). Bnt when the langua^ that has been used with respect to my ^ureh and its clergy, it is no wonder T should feel heated. Wiicn die charge of apoitacy was attempted to be fastened on my church 1^ a man Whose church, according to himself, was not in existence ibr 800 or 1,000 years before Luther, it is no wonder I should re- tort. We were the only church in the world then. From us they hai9t got their ordination, their perpetuity, their visibility, (great dheerine and groaning). He comes and shakes his instruments at mt, and makes • mowery and a laugh of our miracles. •'. The revaread gentleman here concluded, amid loud cheers, hisses iilid groans. While the meeting was separating* the shouting Waa continued, with occasional cheers for both the reverend gentle- Men. The "Kentish-fire" was raised. The Rev. Mr. Gregg stood ibr aome time waving his maps about his head, and Nolan, the ex.' Iirieaty exhibited one of the articles used on the Roman Catholic ^Jjltan, uM shouts of disapprobation. Notwithstanding the noise, jt^ — c_».._ pgpufntgd iifithout any violence on either side. THB £ND. «.^' "^ ^,lt ^t .V t'-k i-'fF*' f^ t, -1. **<»••♦.• * ,.yf •■■ W! «• ir ^