REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
AT
••■4i<i
i; 1^;
OF
Hmiiitte illeiliotlisi^,
Held on Wednesday and Ihursday, April 14th and ISth^ 1875 f
IN SHAFTESBURY HALL.
T0E.03^TT0.
ROBERT WALKER, Esq,, in the Chair.
Published by order of the Conference.
' I
Toronto:
DUDLEY & BURNS, PRINTERS, COLBORNE ST.
18 7 5.
INTRODUCTORY.
This report is, as far as could possibly be secured, a full and faith-
ful reproduction of what was said at the Open Conference of Primi-
• tive Methodists, lately held in Toronto. The greatest care was
taken to prevent that meeting from being in any narrow sense a
party meeting. It was designed to be, and it was, a meeting in
which every member of the community in Canada who chose to at-
tend, had the fairest and fullest opportunity to state his views upon
the topics lO which the attention of the meeting was directed. This
spirit of perfect fairness bore its fruit. The whole of the sessions
were passed through in a spirit of kindness. On the whole few
bitter things were heard ; men spoke earnestly, but with respect and
Christian forbearance.
We hope the same spirit will be brought to the study of this re-
port. The facts presented are weighty. The arguments used, are,
many of them, of far wider application than the merely sectional
aspect, which they appear at first sight to wear. The whole report
is presented to our people, both in Canada and in Great Britain,
without any party spirit. We are engaged in an important move-
ment. We desire it to be conducted in a spirit of nobleness and
candour. The brethren who call attention to the weak points and
vast difficulties of our maintaining a separate church organization in
Canada, ought not to be branded as either disloyal or wanting in
fidelity to their trust. Their lives and services are sufficient answer
to such charges. The brethern who believe in our duty to maintain
a distinct existence, ought not to be charged with mere blind sec-
tarianism, they are moved by higher motive. This report is com-
mended to honorable and unprejudiced minds, with a sincere hope
that the Lord Jesus will lead His servants to a wise and right
decision.
PRIMITIVE METHODIST CONFERENCE.
A Conference, attended by a large number of brethren from the
various fields of labor in the Primitive Methodist Church in Canada,
opened in Shaftesbury Hall, April 25th, 1875. The conference was
summoned in obedience to the following circular, copies of which
were distributed to all concerned :^
" Brethren — The interests of Methodism, as a vital force in
Christendom, have a high claim upon our devout consideration.
The Dominion of Canada has been greatly blessed, through Metho-
distic agency, under the presence and power of Christ. It must be
a source of deep satisfaction to every intelligent Christian to notice
the sincere and affectionate regard for each other which has of late
years so perceptibly deepened and ripened between the different
Methodist denominations in the country. ^
*' Within the last year, two of these denominations have amalga-
mated on a platform and polity which appears to many to be liberal
and safe. The United Church has taken up a position of the most
courteous and fraternal relationship towards our own and other
bodies.
" There are amongst us brethren who think that the interests of the
Redeemer's Kingdom would be greatly advanced by a further unifica-
tion of the Methodist bodies ; whilst there are still other brethren,
who believe, that so far as they are concerned, we have been called
of God to a distinct work and it is our duty to remain a distinct com-
munity.
" It is now proposed to invite all who are interested in this ques-
tion to meet together for informal, brotherly, and prayerful consulta-
tion. For this purpose this circular of invitation is issued. Your
attendance being desired, it seems to be right to state very cleary
respecting the proposed meeting —
" First. — It is in no sense a mere party meeting, except that it is
confined to Primitive Methodists. It is intended to be neither Union
nor Anti-Union, but simply a meeting for free and full and brotherly
consultation.
6
" Second. — This being the case, no resolution will be proposed in
any way committing the members of the meeting on this subject.
" Third. — Nothing will be allowed that shall appear in the slight-
test degree to commit the connection to either one policy or another.
" As Brothers let us meet — as intelligent Christians let us realize
the forces which are surging around us, and as men to whom the
honour of the Lord Jesus is high above every thing else, let us con-
sult as to the true course which our time and our historical position
as Primitive Methodists require at our hands.
Yours fraternally,
* T. Griffith,
*' t. guttery,
" Robert Irving Walker.
" D. McLean,
! *' Robert Walker,
! ** Thos. Thompson."
! S. R. Briggs,
Sec. Committee.
The following questions for consideration were suggested by the
Committee : —
I St. The Numerical and Financial position of our Church in
Canada, Past and Present.
2nd. The Geographical position of our work in Canada.
3rd. The Distinctive features of Methodism in Canada. What
are they ?
4th. Are we justified in expending our means and energies for
the further prosecution of Church Work in Canada as a Separate
1 Denomination.
I 5th. Canadian Methodism ; its claims.
The following is a list of the brethren attending conference : —
i
ministers. '
Revs. Joseph Markham, Sanford ; Wm. S. Hughan, London ;
Joseph J. Haylock, Woodham ; Robert Cade, Bowmanville ; John
Goodman, Markham ; Wm. C. Allen, Pickering ; James Walker,
Hawksville ; R. McKee, Blenheim ; Walter Reid, Laskay ; J. F.
Ockley, Toronto; Robert Boyle, Barrie ; Thos. W. Joliffe, Brampton;
Thos. Sims, Brampton ; Wm. Herridge, Hamilton ; Chas. Lazenby,
Bradford ; James Edgar, Yorkville ; J. P. Bell, Brantford ; Thos.
Boyd, Miichell ; Wm. Nixon, Laskay ; Isaac Ryder, Hawksville ;
Wm. Thornley, Scarboro' ; B. J. Brown, Laurel ; Jonathan Milner,
Orangeville; Joseph Simpson, Orangeville; Henry Matthews, Albion;
Geo. F. Lee, Rosemont ; Thos. Griffith, Toronto ; N. Welhvood,
Etobicoke ; Jas. Smith, Malton ; Wm. Bee, Toronto ; Henry Parish,
St. Catherines ; Thos Amy, Reach ; Thos. Crompton, Barrie ; Geo.
Wood, Toronto ; C. W. Carleton, Malton ; Eli Middletou, Giielph ;
C. O. Johnston, Scarboro ; John Garner, Etobicoke.
LAYMEN.
Messrs. R. Irving Walker, Toronto ; Robt. Easton, Bowmanville ;
D. McLean ; Robt. Walker, Toronto ; Isaac Moore, Barrie ; Dr. J.
Bentley, Newmarket ; M. Treadgold, Matthew M. Elliot, Wm. Elliot,
Wm. Marshall, Joseph Cunmington, Brampton ; Thos. Thompson,
Toronto ; Henry Diceman, Laskay ; Chas. D. McGinn, Wm. D.
Fitzpatrick, Scarboro' ; Geo Flint, Toronto ; John Higginbotham,
Bowmanville ; John Green, Orangeville ; Joseph Banks, Amaranth ;
W. C. Eraser, Toronto ; L. Walker, Brampton ; Samuel Wadby,
Albion ; John Johnston, Hamilton ; W. B. Butler, J. McCausland,
Toronto ; Wm. Train, Rosemont ; John Bugg, S. R. Briggs, Toronto ;
John Ackrow, Etobicoke ; John Kent, Toronto ; Thos. Cooper,
Bolton ; Thos. Stibbert, Scarboro' ; John C. Berkinshaw, Toronto ;
Cornelius Dicke, Sandford ; Samuel Virgin, Toronto.
The Conference met at nine o'clock. Mr. Robert Walker was
appointed Chairman, and the Rev. W. C- Allen, Secretary, the Rev.
Thomas Crompton was appointed Vice Chairman.
It was resolved that this be a Conference of Primitive Methodists
only, reporters excepted.
Resolved, that the action of the Committee relative to reporting
this Conference, in the columns of the Liberal be sanctioned.
Resolved, that the five aspects of Methodism, as presented by the
Committee be endorsed.
Resolved, that the following rules of order for the government of
this Conference be adopted, with the exception that in relation to
question No. 4, the first brother replying shall claim 30 minutes for
said purpose : —
RULES OF DISCUSSION.
Speakers that open subjects shall not exceed 30 minutes and other
speakers on same subject shall not exceed 15 minutes, and that when
the Chairman shall have decided that the general discussion shall
close ; then the party opening the subject, shall have 15 minutes to
reply, if he shall desire the same, question No. 4 excepted, in this
they shall have 30 minutes.
Resolved, that we have a verbatim report of the proceedings of
this conference if said members of such conference wish it.
Resolved, that we adjourn -until 2.10 p. m.
AFTERNOON SESSION.
'i
The Conference met at half-past two o'clock.
After prayer by Rev. T. Guttery, and singing of the hymn " There
is a land of Pure Delight," the Chairman read a portion of the 52nd
chapter of Isaiah, followed by a brief prayer.
It was resolved that a hundred cards be obtained with the ques-
tions for consideration printed thereon.
Moved by Bro. Guttery seconded by Bro. Crompton, that the
word " brethren " be printed on the cards and used instead of " dele-
gate." Carried.
The Chairman, in opening the proceedings, said that on being
appointed that morning to the position he held, he thought it best
not to make any remarks, but he considered it desirable he should
now do so. He thanked them for the honour they had put upon
him, and the confidence they had reposed in him by placing him
in that very important position. He trusted that with their forbear-
ance he should be able to render some humble service to the cause
they had at heart, and give satisfaction at least to some as the Confer-
ence proceev'ied. He thought it would be proper to say a word or
two with respect to the calling of the Conference. Some of them
•would know that the first intimation they had of the proposal to hold
such a gathering was given at the meeting of the District Committee
and General Missionary Committee held in Hamilton. He believed
nothing officially was done at that time, but certain friends believed
that a meeting of this kind would be a benefit to the Connexion in
view of certain circumstances which had occurred, and that were
still passing around them. So far as he understood the friends with
whom he associated, the object was to discuss the subject of Metho-
•dism in particular, what had taken place recently among other deno-
minations, and to ascertain whether or not any material change had
occurred in the minds of their own people. Most of them were
aware that in the Conference of 187 1 that particular subject was
fully discussed, very patiently and very candidly. A very large
number of brethren delivered their minds on that occasion, and in a
very proper manner. At that time the Conference was so constituted
that the majority was exceedingly large against any change, so far as
they as a denomination were concerned. If he remembered rightly,
the division taken upon this great question was 18 to 43 ; — if he were
wrong in the numbers he could be corrected. The same subject was
discussed at considerable length at the Conference of 1873 — at least
he understood so. He was not present at that Conference, but from
documents furnished to him when he was in England, it appeared
9
that the subject was discussed to some extent — rather considerably
in fact — and the decision arrived at was rather more -verse than the
former decision, there being a majority of 15 to 48. At the time,
that appeared to the Conference to have settled the question in such
a way that it would scarcely have come up again for consideration
for some time to come. However, very material changes took place
subsequently with regard to the Methodist Church of Canada, and
the New Connexion Methodists, and also the addition of the British
Provinces, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Most of them were
aware that an organic union was formed by these respective societies
of Methodists, and one great objection put forth by them (the Primi-
tive Methodists) as a people, was that they could never, under any
circumstances, be associated with the union under the name of any
sect that then existed. Since then they knew that the name of the
united )^'dy had been changed and matters had come to about what
was suggested by their part of the Committee at the Union Commit-
tee's meeting. Now, in view of their Conference having taken action
with respect to this subject at two or three gatherings, — he believed
at three Conferences — they had appointed a Union Committee to
confer with the other denominations on the subject of Methodist
Union. It was a long time before the Committee met. but ultimately
when they did so, they, as a denomination, were partly instrumental
in bringing that body together. They took part in the proceedings
of the Conference, and one of the great obstacles in their way was
the name. Now it was argued by certain friends of theirs — men who
had been engaged in gathering that meeting together — that since the
alteration took place, a great change had come over the Church to
which they belonged, and a great many men who formerly were firm
in the belief that Primitive Methodism was a divine institution, and
called of God to fulfil a particular work, and as such it was their duty
to remain alone and not be numbered with the Churches, had altered
their opinions. Hence that meeting hj.d been called on the suppo-
sition that it would elicit the truth, and with the idea that they would
be able to ascertain wli ether or not there had been progress in the
direction referred to, as the probability was that the subject would
again be brought up at their next conference. He confessed for one
that he was not unwilling, but rather favourable to the calling of that
meeting as a preparatory movement, in order that the denomination
might have the subject fully brought before them, that it might be
placed before the next quarterly Conferences in some shape or other.
If so, the subject would come to their district meetings, and those
meetings would have the question under their consideration in a
prominent shape, and would instruct their delegates to the next Con-
ference. Hence he hoped and believed — and still hoped and be^
lieved — that if the next Conference spoke upon the subject, it would
do so intelligently, and give the mind of the people through
10
their representatives. On that account he had so far been
favourable to the holding of that gathering. It had been urged, and
he thought with some propriety, that it was necessary now — indeed,
incumbent upon them — as good neighbours and brethren to the other
Methodist Churches to again give their opinion on the matter. As
he had said, they had spoken twice before — very adversly to Metho-
dist union, and he thought it behoved them, after the changes which
had taken place, that they should speak once more. He hoped it
would be fully understood that they did not in the most distant
manner expect that their voices in that meeting would go forth as
'connexional. (Hear). He stood there as an individual ; and he
believed his brethren there all attended as individuals, responsible
for their own ac^^s, and not thinking their own beloved denomination
were all responsible for their proceedings. He hoped during their
proceedings the most kindly and brotherly feelings would prevail,
that every one who addressed the meetings would do so respectfully,
avoid all personal reflections, give every brother an opportunity of
being heard, and if possible, avoid those tremendous explanations.
(Laughter). Often in meetings of that kind there was a brother
here and there who rose to order, and said he must explain. (Laugh-
ter). Now he would advise them, if they felt they must explain, to
get their teeth under their lip and hold it fast until the brother had
done speaking. (Renewed laughter). This would be much better
than intruding upon the meeting whilst another was speaking. He
suggested that they should make that meeting as much as possible
devotional — that they should have their proceedings well mixed with
prayer, and the singing of God's praise, and that they should especi-
ally implore the Divine presence and guidance, and not desire to
establish their own opinion higher than the throne of grace. Some
were so well satisfied with Primitive Methodism as it was that they
could scarcely pray to God upon this subject, for they considered
that their views were self-evident, and there were others who thought
there was no Cause to pray on the subject of Methodist union for
the importance of it was self-evident. Now let them put away these
pre-conceived opinions altogether, for they needed light on both sides
of the question. If in the course of the proceedings he should in
any way fail in maintaining order, or err in his decisions, he should
always be glad to take kindly hints and instructions from brethren,
and if wrong he should be perfectly willing to be corrected. In
conclusion, the speaker said he would not offer any further observa-
tions at this part of the proceedings. The arrangement agreed upon
in the morning was that certain subjects should be taken up as they
were printed upon the circular. The roll had already been called, and
before they proceeded any further he would call upon one brother to
engage in prayer.
Bro. John Garner then engaged in prayer.
11
THE NUMERICAL AND FINANCIAL POSITION OF OUR
CHURCH IN CANADA, PAST AND PRESENT.
Rev. W. Reid, of Laskey, read the following paper : —
Without any remarks at present I shall proceed to lay before this
meeting a statement of the numerical position of the Church in
Canada as reported to the Conference of 1874, comparing it with
that of 1864. Ten years ago we had six districts ; now we have
seven, with sixty stations, including missions and circuits.
No.
of Members,
1864.
No. of Members,
1874.
Increase.
Decrease.
Toronto District, .
. 1,273
1,804
• • •
531
Brampton do.
Guelph do.
Hamilton do.
• 1,323
690
620
1,420
848
614
• •
• • •
• •
97
158
6
London do.
Kingston do.
Barrie do.
. 764
. 649
290
913
517
665
• •
• • •
• •
149
375
132
Total, ... 5,609 . . 6,781 ... 1,310 138
This tabular statement shows our increase for ten years to be
1,172, but from this there has to be deducted 50 members lost by
the giving up of Stanley Mission, which makes our nett increase
1,122, or an average of 112 per year.
Perhaps it would be interesting to learn where the increases have
been, or on what particular stations there has been most progress
during the ten years. Take the Districts in order. First, Toronto
District. Toronto Circuit, increase 415 ; Scarboro, increase 35 ;
Markham and Pickering, increase 94 ; Reach and Sandford,
increase 120. Bowman ville has a decrease of 133. Every station
on this district has an increase with one exception, and the decrease
on Bowmanville is mainly owing to the giving of some appointment
in Darlington and Manvers.
BRAMPTON DISTRICT
Albion Circuit, increase
Laskey do. „
Rosemount Mission do.
Brampton Circuit, decrease
Etobicoke and Malton Circuit, decrease
Orangeville and Amaranth, do.
98
57
50
38
50
20
}S
HAMILTON DISTRICT.
Hamilton Circuit and Hamilton West Mission, increase
Walsingham Mission, increase
Woodstock do. do.
Grand River Circuit, decrease
W^alpole Mission, do.
Blenheim do. do.
Brantford do. do.
Paris do. do.
50
45
45
78
3
56
I
8
GUELPH DISTRICT.
On this district there is only one independent circuit, viz., Peel,
and with Hawksville Mission, with which it was formerly connected,
shows a decrease of 34.
24
25
29
118
68
The decrease on Peel is explained by the increase on Arthur,
which was separated from Peel, and reports 68 increase. The
increases on this district are encouraging.
Guelph
Brant
do.
do.
1, \_lN,V,J.\,CI,OV^
increase
do.
• • •
Jubilee
Arthur
do.
do.
do.
do.
• • •
LONDON DISTRICT.
London Mission, increase
Plympton do. do.
Chatham and Dover Mission, increase
McGillivray and W^est Branch, do.
Stratford, with Mitchel and Woodham, decrease
Caradoc Mission, decrease
Bosanquet Circuit, decrease . .
62
35
97
45
I
60
29
KINGSTON DISTRICT
Is the most non-progressive part of our Canadian work, if any part
of it can be said to be non-progressive.
Kingston Mission, increase
Hinchinbrooke do. do,
Portland do. decrease
CoUinsby do. do. ... .. .. .. ... 39
Napanee do. do 78
32
23
61
13
THE BAT^RIE DISTRICT
Osprey
- do.
Collingvvood
do.
Artemesia
do.
Muskoka
do.
Durham
do.
Orillia
do.
Bradford
decrease
Is in a very encouraging state of prosperity, being prog-essive in
every department. Its total increase of members for ten years is 575.
Barrie and Oro, increase ... ... .. ... •■• i- 4
4
135
24
34
87
The decrease of members on the Bradford mission is occasioned
by the giving up several places, which, I believe, was unwise and
unwarranted in the circumstances.
' At the Conference of 1874 the state of our connexion was as
follows :
Vvircuics . . ••• .. ... •/• ••• ••• 21
Missions ..... ... ... ... ... .. 38
Members ... ... ... .. ... .. ... 6,781
Ministers in the active work .. .. .. ••• 7 8
Connexional Churches .. .. .. ». .. 205
Other preaching places .. .. .. .*. .. 115
Parsonages .. ... .. ... ... .. .. 34
Value of Church property ... .. .. ... $258,30800
Ordinary income ... .. .. ..... $26,942 00
Missionary income .. .. .. .. .. $8,146 2-5
The only new stations added to our mission work during the last
eight years are Rosemount and Orillia. Grand River, Bosanquet^
and McGillivray have become circuits from missions in the same
time. Three circuits have been made from Toronto, one from
Markham, one from Reach, c le from Etobicoke, and one from
Orangeville. London and O .angeville, that were circuits, have
become missions. The following Missions have been separated
from other stations in eight years : — Arthur from Peel, Dover from
Chatham, Oro from Barrie, Hamilton West from Hamilton, Bruce
Mines, Town of Paris, and part of Bradford have been disconti'^'^ed.
It will be clear that though there is reported thirteen additiv^nal
stations, the Connexion does not cover any new ground. The
increase of stations is caused by the division of stations as first
mentioned. In 1864 there were reported 354 preaching places.
This includes connexional churches and other preaching places. In
1874 there was reported 320, being 34 fewer preaching places than
ten years ago. It may be in some instances that preaching places
u
have been united, thereby making the number less, and connexional
churches may have been built ; but the fact that we have fewer
preaching places now than in 1864, along with the fact that we do
not cover any new ground, shows that we have not been as aggressive
as we should have been. For we ought to have so spread out that
the number of preaching places would have increased instead of
having lessened.
But a glance at the report of our connexional status for 1874, will
show that there has been encouraging progress in some respects, as
in the following instances : In ten years an increase of members of
1,122. Increase of connectional churches of 65, being on an average
six and a half per year. Increase of stations about 13, in parsonages
19. Increase in the Mission Fund of two thousand seven hundred
and forty-seven dollars and sixty-nine cents ($2,747 69). In the
same time ordinary income has more than doubled ; but you will
bear in mind that ten years ago the ordinary income was very
deficiently reported, inasmuch as many missions did not report tea-
meetmgs and exti'a efforts on behalf of salary ; but making allowance
for this, there has been a large addition in ordinary income, evincing
a sj)irit of increasing liberality on the part of the church in sustaining
the ministry.
I will now draw your attention to the expenditure of missionary
money, and with what results. Not that we are to measure success
always by the amount of money expended, but where there is a
large expenditure of means and energies it is reasonable to look for
increase in numbers. In ten years, (1864 to 1874), there was spent
in grants to missions over seventy-two thousand dollars.
"To 27 Missions in existence in 1874, ten
years grant $54,92700
To Missions organized since 1864, grants for 13,07500
To Missions discontinued since, cost of
grants alone $04,01900
$72,011 00 • •
The total expenditure of Mission fund $492, 92, 47
By grants $72,01 1 00
Other expenses 20,48147
Total ; . . . . $92,492 47
What of the results ? If our ninety-two thousand dollars have
been expended in ten years we reasonably expect considerable
progress. From our missions alone there was reported in 1864,
2,790 members, and in 1874, 2,975, being an increase of 185. It
is true that Grand River, Bosanquet, and McGillivray have been
15
made circuits, which is progress, and Rosemount and Orillia have
been added. The missions, like our circuits, have sufi'ered con-
siderably by removals, yet, taking all things into consideration, the
advance is small considering the means and labour expended.
There are some points in our work that require some consideration
and probably revision. Take the Kingston District from the year
1858, in which year, I think, the granting system was introduced.
In that year the district reported 403 members, and in 1874 reported
517, showing an increase in sixteen years of 114, though for the
past ten years it exhibits a decrease of 132. There was given in
grants alone to this district from 1858 to 1874 $14,909. In addition
to this there have been special grants for house furniture, and
removal expenses. And during these sixteen years no new mission
has been taken up, those that were missions then are missions still.
There may have been some additional appointments added to the
stations, though of that I am not quite sure, but the number of
stations is the same. Look at the same district from 1864 to 1874.
In the first mentioned year it reported 649 members, and in the
latter 517, being 132 less than ten years ago, while during that time
$10,324, have been given in grants exclusive of removal expenses
and grants for furniture. But in explanation of the decrease of
members during the ten years prior to the last Conference, I would
say, that I judge the chief causes are removals and deaths. And
while the Missionary Committee has spent a large sum of money,
the district has probably contributed more than one-half of the
expense and has raised besides a respectable sum in the way of
ordinary income. The Portland station had in 1858, 206 members,
and in 1874, 204, being two less at the end of sixteen years, not-
withstanding that nearly sixty were reported on trial. It will be
•only fair on behalf of Portland to say that since 1858, Hinchinbrooke
was separated from it with 51 members. From 1858 there was
given to it in grants the amount of $4,444, the station itself contri-
tributing towards the mission fund. Take a range of ten years. At
the end of this period it has a decrease of 61, while during that time
there was spent exclusively in grants $2,561. This is to my mind
an unsatisfactory condition of things and ought to receive immediate
attention from the authorities of the church. The London district
reports an increase of one hundred and sixty-four (164), but there
are some points that do not exhibit that measure of numerical pro-
gress we all desire. I refer particularly to the Stratford, Mitchell,
and Woodham stations, all of which some years since were included
in the Stratford mission. This station was commenced in the year
1859, and reported 31 members. At the Conference of 1874 the
report stood as follows : Stratford 50, Mitchell 42, Woodham 48,
total, 140, an increase of 109 in fifteen years. In that same time
there was spent in grants to Stratford, $4,040 ; to Mitchell, $1,393 j
16
and to Woodham, $1,377 ; a total of $6,810 ; an increase of 109
members in 15 years, while nearly seven tlioirand dollars have been
given in grants. An examination of this part of our work for the
last ten yea/s is not so satisfactory as that from 1859 to 1864. Ten
years ago from last Conference these three stations reported an
aggregate of 141, being one less now than ten years since. During
the same time $5,330 expended in grants alone, while special grants
have been made for furniture, and removal of missionaries. The
following items require the consideration of this meeting or of the
Conference, the highest court of the church :
MISSIONARY MONEY SPENT.
Orangcville from 1864 to 1874, decrease of 20, and $2,131.
Blenheim
do.
do.
56,
i6
$2,150.
Brantford
do.
do.
I,
iC
2,684.
I^Iinto
do.
do.
24,
1,151-
Kincardine
do.
do.
24,
0,824.
Caradoc
do.
do.
60,
1,612.
Collinsby
do.
do.
39,
2,019.
Napanee
do.
do.
87,
1,864.
Bradford
do.
do.
87,
2,985-
Missionary money spent ! It should be remembered that these
stations and, in fact, none of our Missions are wholly dependent on
the mission fund. Each station holds its own missionary meetings,
and sends all it raises to the general mission fund.
While the missions just named have not been progressive as far
as the membership is concerned, they have been progressive, I
believe, in some other respects. Blenheim and Bradford especially
are looking up. There are other missions that present very pleasing
and encouraging aspects. Muskoka, Barrie, Chatham, Plympton,
London, Jubilee, Kingston, Brant, Guelph, Rosemount, Walsingham
and several others are succeed ing to such an extent as to warrant
the committee in prosecuting the work on those fields. Since
Conference tidings have been received of great success in the city
of Montreal and the town of St. Catharines. I suppose our cause
presents what every good cause does — its lights and shades.
In closing my remarks I may add that the revenue of the Church
shows a growing libe rality on the part of our people In sustaining
the various funds and institutions of the church, there being nearly
three thousand dollars increase in our mission fund during the last
ten years and between fifteen and sixteen thousand dollars increase
in our ordinary income in the same time. Some of our missions
report a decrease of members, but others exhibit encouraging
increases. Grants have been given to our missions, but they have
not been wholly dependent, having contributed to the mission fund,
and ordinary income. Some of the facts I have presented are
IT
painful but there are others encouraging. This I say, brethren, if
we remain a distinct ecclesiastical community, let us devise measures
at once effective and economical for the better prosecution of our
work in Canada.
Bro. Herridge said he was almost committed to non-union views,
for the lady at whose house we were stopping conld not as she said
take in a union man. He thought that the remarks of Bro. Reid
calculated to lead somewhat astray. Most subjects have two sides,
and in order that his statements may convey a proper impression, it
is only fair to compare Bro. Reid's figures with those of other deno-
minations. It is easy to make an impression like this, and present
facts in their worst light, while, perhaps, other denominations have
had a similar number of them of equally painful facts. What he was
going to give had not been prepared for this meeting, but about
twelve months ago, knowing the conference then held would be their
2 1 St., it occurred to him that to make up a few statistics might help
them. The statistics come down to 1873, and four Methodist
churches, the Wesleyan Methodists, New Connexion, Methodist
Episcopal and our own. During these years the smallest percentage
of increase was that enjoyed by the Methodist Episcopal Church,
namely, 61 per cent, during sixteen years from 1857 to 1873. We
come now to the denomination nearest in size and general circum-
stances to our own, the New Connexion, which had an increase of
63 per cent, during that time. The Wesleyan Methodists, which is
by far the larger body, and hence more difficult to increase in the
same ratio, had 67 per cent, increase. Perhaps we are not prepared
for the statement, but our own increase during this time amounted
to 115 per cent. (Applause.) He made this statement, because he
thought the facts should be brought out in connection with other
churches. During this time we have lost more than 9,000 members
by death and removal. As a compensation for this 9,000, we only
received between 1,000 and 2,000 from all sources, including those
from England, and including those under the heading in our report,
"l^eceived from other stations." The Primitive Methodists should
not be discouraged by the view of their comparative failure. The
speaker was not here to-day to say the denomination had made as
much progress as they should, and as they would if they had been
more faithful. There was no question about this. At the same time,
looking at our own progress, looking at other denominations, we have
reason to be grateful. We have laboured under many disadvantages,
such as we are all familiar with. In regard to missionary money and
the districts to which these statistics refer, we did not confine any
other churches to the employment of missionary money on old cir-
cuits. Take, for instance, the New Connexion Methodists. When
they united last year with the Wesleyans to form the Methodist
Church of Canada they had not a single station in all the work that
18
was self-sustaining. Every station had to be placed as a station
called a domestic mission, consequently compared with our own and
our self-subtaining stations. This fact counterbalances to a large ex-
tent the gloomy aspect that has been presented. In regard to the
Wesleyan Methodists, they are employing missionary money just as
we are. For instance, they have a German Mission in Hamilton,
which cost last year over $i,ooo from mission fund. The town of
Niagara cost $400. Then a new mission has been started in London
East, near our own, which cost $800. Then there are Forest, Oil
Springs, and Rockwood, which are not self-sustaining. Even the
old town of Gait cannot support its mission, which cost the Wesley-
ans last year $270. Then in the Kingston district, there are sta-
tions there, for instance, Portland, along side of our own. Harrow-
smith station receives a greater grant than our Portland station. Take
Gananoque, where the Wesleyans have been preaching for sixty years,
that is not self-sustaining. These facts are given, not to show that
these people do wrong, but rather to show that while we are laying
out money in this fashion other churches are doing the same. He
thought Bro. Reid's figures would bear a little modification.
Bro. Milner said Bro. Herridge had made a sensible speech, but
not fair and honorable. He willingly overlooked the facts of the case.
The Wesleyans have circuits — Wilton, Odessa, Newburgh, and Wat-
erloo, covering the very ground where we have missions. It is very
true they have a mission at Hamilton, but it is a German mission, to
reach a mass of German people not reached otherwise. He had pre-
pared a few facts which he had gleaned from the reports of Confer-
ence. He had not been able to obtain correct figures for the years
1 858-1860, as the report was made up beyond the k'~n of mortals.
Twenty years ago the church had seven circuits and three Circuit
Missions. The membership on the stations was 2,070, and there
were also five missions, the membership on which was 601. London,
Woodstock, Paris, and Brantford commenced in 1854, the expendi-
ture being $4,527 10. At the close of 1855 Conference, the balance
of missionary money on hand was $1,165 53-
In 1864 there were ten Circuits, and a membership on said sta-
tions of 2,442, an increase on Circuits. There were 29 Missions,
with a membership of 3,790. The expenditure on Missions was
$7,464 GO for that year.
In 1874 there were eighteen Circuits and three Mission Circuits
(there being 3,283 members on the Circuits alone, and 523 on Mis-
sion Circuits, making a total of 3,806), and thirty-eight Missions (not
including St. Catharines, Montreal, and Manitoba), with a member-
ship of 2,97 5.
The Circuits formed during twenty years are, three in Toronto,
besides Pickering, Sanford, Laskay, Hamilton, Peel, Grand River,
Bosanquet and McGillivray ; also Mission Circuits at Malton, Reach
19 .
and Amaranth. The cost of Missions in ^874 was $10,597.77, over
$3,000 more than in 1864, with 185 of an increase of members on
said Missions.
Since 1854, Walpole and Blenheim Mission Circuits have come on
the Mission h'st. We have also given up seven Missions since 1864,
which cost the Mission fund about $5,000. We have formed eleven
new Missions since 1864, with a membership of 612, and cost in
grants alone of $13,175. We had twenty-seven Missions in 1874,
which wer? Missions in 1864, and which have cost the Mission fund
$54,927 by grants alone. On those Missions there were in 1864
2,301 members, in 187s, 2,363 members, or an increase of sixty-two
members on the Missions named, in ten years. Tlie grant in 1864
was $5,607 ; in 1874 it was $5,762, being an increase of $155.
Thus, with the exception of Brampton, which has decreased thirty-
eight members, and Etobicoke and Malton Stations, fifty members
since 1864, the rest of the old Circuits have an increase during the
past ten years. It will also be seen that the Grand River Circuit has
decreased seventy-eight members, and the Peel Circuit thirty-four
members. Bowmanville has decreased one hundred and thirty-three
members during the past ten years, and Bosanquet twenty-nine mem-
bers. But Bosanquet and McGillivray are Circuits only in name.
The former contributed but $449 to pay the salaries of two minis-
ters, and had $33160 deficiency; and the latter contributed but
$549 for the salaries of three men, and had $200 deficit in salary.
These justly are not Circuits. On thirteen of the Missions, there has
been a decrease during the past ten years, also on five Circuits. The
largest incaease and prosperity in any part of our work is in Toronto.
The past ten pears shows an increase of members in Toronto alone
of 415, or more than one-third of the entire increase reported for ten
years. The most prosperous district is Toronto district. There is
but one decrease among the stations. The total increase for the dis-
trict for ten years is 581 members. The next in increase is Barrie
district, of 360 members ; then London district, 149 increase ; then
Brampton district, 67 members increase ; then Guelph, 90 increase ;
then Hamilton district, 4 increase ; and Kingston district reports
a decrease of 81 members — a sad record. In fact one-third of
our stations has a decrease during the past ten years. During the
pasc twenty years, over 100 ministers employed have ceased from the
active work ; 75 of those having left ; 14 having superannuated, 10
died and 2 left for England. In 1854 we had 35 ministers in the
active work, and 2 superannuated. In 1874, we had 75 in the active
work ; 13 superannuated; and one student. The members in 1854
numbered 2,971 ; in 1864, 6,781 ; showing an increase of 4,110
members in twenty years. It will be seen that 2,255 of the increase
of members during the twenty years, is on the old circuits in Toronto
and Brampton Districts, including also the City of Hamilton — this is
more than one-half of the entire increase. On the old Mission ground
of 1854, the increase is 206, making a total on the field occupied in
the year 1854 of 2,461 increase of members, and leaving but 1,649
members for the new fields of labour occupied since 1854. The total
amount of grants made for 1874, to Missions, was $7,676, and the
deficiency in salaries on the Missions was 2,623. To pay all the
Missionaries in full, as the Ministers are paid on the Toronto and
Brampton Districts, we need just that amount of deficiency added to
the grants.
The cost to the Mission Fund, beside the grants made to Stations,
averages about $2,000 each year, so that to pay the claims on the
Mission Fund, not less than $12,299 income is required for each
year, not including Manitoba, Montreal and St. Catharines.
The question of denominational influence and proportionate power
for good in this country, he would leave for others to decide. The
speaker concludea by saying that the stations are numerically and
financially in some instances weak, and he did not see any reason to
suppose that they could do better. It was plainly to be seen that
the ratio of increase in the Church had not been so large as it ought
to have been.
The Chairman thought there was a more hopeful side to the ques-
tion, and if this was to go abroad to the world that the denomination
was in a very deplorable state, no one will want to talk union with
us. (Laughter.)
Bro. Goodman thought the last speaker proved most satisfactorily
that if we want to do something and be something in the world we
should continue a small body. If a man with a small capital could
double it with more ease than a large one, and the same principle
applied to denominations, if we want to double ourselves we must
remain as we are. (Applause.)
Bro. Gun^ERY had been very much impressed with the remark
that was made on the missionary report. He could turn to the proper
page and see the income clearly given, and a more clear or satisfac-
tory statement he never saw.
Bro. MiLNER asked Brother Guttery to turn to the reports for
1858, 1859, and i860, and he would find his statements correct.
The Chairman ruled the discussion on the reports out of order.
Bro. Guttery simply referred to the remarks made by Bro.
Milner. He proceeded to state that wherever there is a true personal
piety it was reproductive, and a church with one hundred earnest,
pious members it ought to be able to double its number quite as
easily as one that has twenty-five members equally pious and devoted.
If not, the accession of members does not imply the accession of
power. He held that the accession of members meant increase of
power, and if Churches are not progressive, the Churches that are
increasing 115 per cent, is a better advertisement of Christianity
21
than one that progresses in a different ratio. He thought the figures
given might, however, produce a wrong impression. The matter for
them to discuss at this time was their duty in the future, and he did
not think the figures were likely lo help very much in deciding on
that question.
Bro. Crompton wished to make a few remarks in reference to the
statement that larger grants or as large had been recently made as
were made ten or more years ago. He thought it should not be
forgotten how much larger the number of agents now in the field was
than ever before. It had been also stated that a certain sum of
money had been expended upon a certain number of missions in a
given space of time that was composed largely of missionary money.
He very much regretted that our progress had not been large, and
he thought a lamentable state of things in that part of the country
where now Stratford and Woodham and Mitchell missions are
situated, and also down east where Kingston and Napanee and Port-
land stations are. It was a sad state of things. These were speci-
mens of the specially unproductive parts of our work. They should
look at the whole connexion, at the cause as a whole. He was not
satisfied with the ratio of progress made. At the same time we
should look at these things. It was possible for statistics even to
make an unfavourable impression on our mind. However the
missions have raised a portion of the money contributed, and it was
satisfactory to know that the salaries of many of the brethren had
been largely increased
Bro. Garner thought there was one question that had been
overlooked, and that the documents submitted only give a one-sided
affair of it. Those figures show what the stations were so many
years ago and the number of members they represent at the present
time. Against them should be put the number that have died, the
number removed, and the number that have left the connexion in
any other way. It was a fact that on many stations where he had
laboured they had lost, by death and removals, fully twenty per cent,
of the membership ; yet we make up the blanks and report an in-
crease. At Etobicoke there had been a steady advance. During
the last four Sabbaths in the ordinary work he had joined four in one
day — another one — and last Sunday two. The Lord was with them
in the work. Backsliders were being reclaimed and many sinners
converted. This should be taken into account. The blanks caused
by death or removal would be filled up with converted souls.
Bro. Wadby related his experience as a member of the Primitive
Methodist Church. He told how, twenty-four years ago, the Church
with which he was connected had met with only two members and
how the seed which was then sown by the faithful labourers had
germinated, until now they can boast of a flourishing Church and
Sunday School. • ' • -
2
22
Bro. Bee said he did not intend to go into the statistics which had
been given, for he was one of those who had not received a card
staling the subjects to be discussed, therefore he was quite unpre-
pared. The expenditure on missionary account seemed large, and
Bro. Crompton merely hinted at the fact that there was kept out of
sight altogether the money raised on the missions where grants had
been given. This ought to be taken into account, for it war. a very
important item, and Bro. Reid ought, in order to present a fair state-
ment, to have put this alongside of his own. Why had not Bro.
Reid given them particulars in reference to mission stations, which
he admitted had made progress and done well. He certainly con-
sidered that Bro. Reid should have done this, rather than to refer to
Kingston and other places, where he said there had been no advance
made, for it was much better to refer to facts, capable of causing
pleasure in connection with the work of God, than that which was
discouraging. He had supposed Bro. Reid would have done this,
and the course he had adopted had caused him some disappoint-
ment. He had heard people who differed frjUT him in sentiment
say that if people were converted, and went from the church mili-
tant to the church triumphant in glory, what did it matter, particu-
larly, from where they went ? They had all heard sentiments like
this dropped at their Conferences — it was said that even if the Primi-
tive Methodists lost the members other bodies of Christians gained
them. But he would refer them to the fact that 9,000 members had
left them, and they had only gained some 2,000 in the years which
had been referred to. Let them put these facts side by side with
the members which remained in Church fellowship with them to-day,
and these who had gone to Heaven, and then ask themselves if they had
a right to say that the thousands of dollars said to have been lavished,
had been lost. (The Chairman : No). When the day of God
should come would it appear they had done a very enormous thing
in spending a few thousand dollars and saving thousands of souls ?
Money was a very small thing compared with the shining ones who
were before the throne of God. The reader of the paper had drawn
a very dark picture with reference to their membership and their
position amongst other religious denominations. Bosanquet had
been referred to, and it had been stated it only raised between $400
and $500 in one year for two ministers. Deficiencies in salary were
made very much of; and in their minutes of recent years they had
had a claim for deficiency in salary. Any one who knew as much
about the working of the denomination as Bro. Milner and Bro.
Reid, who had spoken, did, knew very well that on many stations
the reports merely showed what had been raised in the ordinary way,
though often after the May quarterly meeting, (the report having
been made up), a rousing tea-meeting was held, a great effort made,
and a good deal done in a pecuniary sense. Remembering this they
would see that the reports hardly give a fair representation. He
could prove this to be the case — it was not a mere statement on his
part. Now, they had reporters present, and he understood that
they were to have a veibatim report of what was said and what was
read. Under these circumstances he thought it would be well to
read them some statistics from the official documents of the denomi-
nation. He would refer to the years between i860 and 1874, and
note the increase or decrease which had taken place, according to
their own official documents. The number of ministers had in-
creased 53, the lo'^al preachers, from 250 to 273 ; class leaders, from
214 to 295 ; the Connexional churches had increased from 91 to 205;
the preaching places had decreased from 181 to 115 ; the parsonages
had increased from 9 to 34 ; Sabbath schools, from 62 to 142 ;
teachers, 549 to 1,226; scholars, from 2,891 to 8,360; Church
members, from 4,274 to 6,781 ; value of Church property (unre-
ported until 1869), $187,305 ; second period, $79,958 ; ordinary in-
come for first period, $7,470, increased to $26,941 ; missionary fund,
$3,583, increased to $4,565. These statistics standing over against
the other which had been given would perhaps make a little sun-
shine, and that was what they wanted. (Cheers).
Bro. HuGHAN said that with the exception of four years
which he spent in the city of Toronto, he had spent all the days of
his ministerial life connected with the missions — sometimes in the
bush, sometimes in towns, and sometimes in cities. Brother Bee had
told a plausible story in connection with the generosity of the people
in making up tie deficiencies in the salaries of ministers, and some-
times not having these facts reported. Now, as far as missions were
concerned the facts were reported, and reported honestly. The
member? were just as honest on the missions as on the circuits as to
reporting the funds raised. Bosanquet had been referred to, and he
might say he had travelled on that district. He could state that
Bosanquet had always been in the habit of doing as brother Bee had
said, and had always reported every cent of its receipts, so that the
statement made as to its deficiencies was perfectly correct. Brother
Bee's remarks were calculated to give the members of the Conference
the impression that the ministers had always received their deficien-
cies ; but he had to state that his deficiencies for ten years averaged
nearly $100, of which sums he had never been paid a cent. He
had travelled and obtained $60 per quarter for himself, his wife,
a horse, house rent (laughter) and other incidental expenses. Some
of the stations were not in debt because of the simple fact that they
had a rule to the effect that no minister could claim anything from a
station after he left it. It might be said that if he had done his duty
he might have got his money. He was not going to speak boast-
ingly or egotistically, though hard things had been said of him (loud
laughter), and he would not boast, for God forbid that he should
24
glory save in the cross of Christ Jesus his Lord ; but this he would
say, he had never left a station less than fifty per cent, better than
he found it, and in most instances loo percent. (Hear, hear.) He
had known what it was to suffer for the cause of Primitive Method-
ism, in pocket and otherwise, and he did not believe in this plausible
way of putting matters. He believed the figures and the facts stated
by brethren were only sadly too true. He mighc be said to be
speaking strongly when he now spoke of their mission work in the
west, but he knew the district thoroughly, having travelled it on
horseback and on foot, and he knew that their mission work there
was to-day a rope of sand. McGUivary had been mentioned, and he
would say to them that it was advisable to send their best men to
that place, not only for the work they had to do, but what they had
to live upon. Brother Milner only uttered a truism when he said
that these places were not circuits. He very much questioned
whether Bosanquet had paid its preachers in full. He suspected
that each preacher gave the stewards a receipt for the whole sum
due to them, deducting $ioo or $150 off the small pittance which
had been doled out to him. He had gone through the mill, and he
knew how hard it ground. (Loud laughter.) He had to tell them
that his loyalty had been tested. Stratford to-day had not as good
a congregation as when he left the place sixteen years ago, though
it had three times the population which it had at that time. The
pkice had not any more churches or denominations than it had
sixteen years ago. The denomination had a church now, and it
stood in as good a location as any church could do, and especially
was this so, if they took into account the statement they had them-
selves so often made, namely, that they were the Church for the
working classes. Though they had said this, the working classes
passed them by, and their church in the place named was nearly
empty. It was not long since a brother preached there to seven or
eight people on a Sunday morning. When the brother who followed
hnn was preaching the place was full. Perhaps these statements
wtre too plain, but any one not blinded by prejudice would not say
so. He knew the brethren who had laboured in the West would
say he had not exaggerated in one thing he had said regarding their
Western work.
Bro. T. Amy was sorry they were not all Mr. Hughans. If they
talked as some did at that meeting they would make ropes of sand,
or try to do so. He had an idea that Primitive Methodism was
not a rope of sand in Canada, and that it would bear more twisting
tiian many could give it ; in fact, the longer it was twisted the
f^trongerit would be. (Laughter.) Personally, he could say that
Beach circuit was a good one when he went upon it.
Bro. McLean desired to say that every man there was a steward
for God and not simply for his denomination. He knew it was
25
well for some to say, " Well, this question of how much money you
shall pour into this work don't amount to anything, because one soul
infinitely transcends all the wealth in the world." But the point at
issue was not whether $50,000 or $90,000 would buy a soul, or
whether the whole world would purchase it, but the matter for them
to consider was, whether as stewards for God they were doing the
best they could with the money of which they were possessed — not
to build up a denomination, but to save sinners. This question was
the one which came to him, and which was pressing upon him that
4ay — not the question of Primitive Methodism, but, was he as an
individual doing the best he could, seeing these appalling, these
startling figures. He told them the figures were startling. It was
no use for them to cry " Peace, peace," for he told them that in the
light of the future, and in the light of the great eternity to come, the
question would be pressed upon them of whether, in the light of
honest convictions, they did the best they possibly could with the
money God had given them. If he understood the matter, they had
■come together frankly and honestly with the object of finding out a
sore place if there was one — not with the idea of finding out whe-
ther they were a rope of sand or another kind of rope. Did they
think if there was anything in his business which he did not under-
stand he would shut his eyes, and ostrich-like, bury his face in the
sand. Some of them had been saying " You should not say these
things," but this was where they had made the mistake for years.
Ever since he had been connected with the denomination he had
had as deep an interest in it as any one — he stood second to none
in this respect. He had advocated this question of money, because,
after all, it was a most important one, and he had for some time
been in favour of their looking candidly and frankly into the whole
thing. He had not heard a single brother gainsay a single figure-
Let them take Stratford, Kingston, and the o*^her places referred to.
Did they mean to tell him that anybody had been suffering there
for want of the Gospel? Not at all; and the denomination had
been pinching and starving some of their men simply because they
had gone into these places. Because they had committed a blunder
should they evermore perpetuate it? Was this right, or as God
would have them do ? Personally, he could not do it any longer j
his mind was made up on the point that they must look the matter
candidly and frankly in the face, and if any facts which were not
pleasing to them came out that day let them deal with them above
board, and not under any circumstances hide their weak points from
one another. He should be glad if each person present would
endeavour to get hold of the idea that personal responsibility rested
•on each of them in this matter.
Bro. MiDDLETON Slid that some few years there was a mission
-called Prince Mines, and a great number of souls were saved as the
26
result of the work, the fruit appearing throughout the entire length
and breadth of the mining country on this continent. However, a
great deal of money was spent on the mission, and the missionary
had to be withdrawn. In Markham about fifteen who were formerly
members in connection with the Primitive Methodist Church at
Bruce Mines left the village, in Lower Canada there were several,
in Nova Scotia several others. Allow him to say, that whether the
people in the village would have suffered or not if they had not
received the Gospel when they out numbered between 1,500 and
2,000, the members belonging to this denomination were secured by
other Churches. He was very sorry that Mr. Reid had not gone
further back than 1864 in the statistics he had given them ; for it
struck him very forcibly that if he had done so he would have pre-
sented a very different account to them from that which he had given
them that afternoon. He believed the date of the first discussion of
this question of Methodist union was the 1866 Conference. He
reminded them that from 1866 to 1870 the increase of the denomina-
tion was 578, and in 1863 the increase was 575. Now everybody
knew that from 1866 up to the present time (more or less) they had
been unsettled, owing to the agitation oi this question. They had
all felt it, and he considered that it behoved them to look these
facts in the face. From 1861 to 1865, when they minded their own
business and went to work to save souls, God gave them an increase
of 1,422. When he entered the ministry, the Bible Christian Church
had not as many members as the Primitive Methodists. For a short
time the Bible Christians dealt with this question, but they ultimately
decided that their best course w^as to withdraw from it, and spend
their time and talents in the great work God had drawn out for them.
He considered this a lesson for the Primitive Methodists. The
Bible Christians had worked hard, and as a result they had placed
tliemselves in advance of the Primitive Methodists, and it was a ques-
tion whether it would not be better for them, that day, to thank God
for past mercies, deeply humiliate themselves, and determine by
God's help to do better for the future. If they were faithful to
themselves, their great privileges, and the great work God had given
them to do, they would succeed as well as they had done from 1861
to 1865. It appeared to him that in his remarks Brother Reid
appeared to have forgotten the large number of members — 9,000 —
which had been lost to the denomination. Further, he understood
that during the last few years London had advanced to the position
of an independent circuit. Barry had also advanced, which was the
case with Guelph, the membership and finance at which place had
been doubled. He should not occupy their time any further.
The Chairman — It appears to me that this subject has received
full consideration.
Bro. Walker wished to correct a statement made by the last
27
in*
speaker. The first resolution passed on the subject of the Methodist
Union, in Canada, was in 1858, and he was personally concerned in
getting up the resolution. The resolution was passed in consequence
of a fraternal address sent by the Primitive Methodist Conference
to the other Methodist bodies in Canada. The resolution originated
in their quarterly meeting, was passed at the district meeting, and
went up to the Conference, where it was modified and sent to the
other Methodist bodies.
Bro. Bee rose to make an explanation in reference to what Bro.
Hughan had said in relation to the extra efforts to raise money
towards deficiencies. What he (the speaker) said was that certain
money was raised after the May quarterly meeting, when it could
not be reported. He had no intention of mentioning any report, or
calling in question the honesty of one. He had no doubt that if
Brother McLean, or any other brother, suspected that his business
was going astray he would very likely want to find out where all the
sore spots were, and apply a remedy. He believed they were
pursuing a right course when they did this in connection with their
own denomination ; but he believed Bro. McLean was too shrewd a
man if there was anything amiss with his business to call in the
reporters whilst he investigated the matter, and lay the causes of
failure before all the world. He thought this would be sufficient to
say on this point.
Mr. J. Edgar said there was one feature about the discussion that
afternoon which he did not like, and that was that there were two
parties there, but this was not so. There were some persons there
who would be glad to encourage this idea. He believed, and knew
in fact, that he was a Primitive Methodist, and had been so for
tv/enty-eight years. He believed he was as loyal to the denomina-
tion as any man in the room, the Chairman not excepted, and he
thought he had shown evidence of this by twenty-eight years of
labour. From the day he joined the body he had, to the best of his
ability, physically and mentally, served the Church of God. He
respected every man's views, and he loved a man who was opposed
to Union, as though he was in favour of it. They ought to get rid
of this idea of two parties. He also considered that during the day
there had been some little advantage taken of statements which had
been taken hold of and magnified. Now, if he understood religion,
this was not the right way for them to endeavour to magnify the
stftlement of an opponent. He did not fear going into any state-
ment of facts. He had nothing to fear. He had been on most of
their Committees for twenty-eight years, and he had never known a
transaction with which they could not face the public press. There
were no secrets which they wished to hide, for during the years to
which he referred he had never been cognizant of an illegal or
unrighteous transaction on the part of the Committees. It was a
painful fact, and one which he deeply deplored, that for many years
some of the funds of the connexion had been what he considered
misappropriated. God would require from each of them an account
of their stewardship, and if any money was misappropriated the
state of things ought to be at once remedied. Their duty was to
spend their money where they could do the most good. Whether
the brethren who listened to him differed from him or not in his
statements, he maintained that it was most painfully evident that the
expenditure as to talent and piety did not correspond with their
income. Suppose they took the case of a man of moderate talent
like himself and put him upon a s:.ation, and he worked twelve
months faithfully, sincerely, earnestly, and perseveringly ; but a man
was, perhaps, put by his side who, with less talent, accomplished
twice as much, though he did not perform half the labour. Now
this was where the thing ground his soul for years, and it ground
him to-day ; and there was not a single minister in that Conference
that day whom it did not grind — not one. [A Voice — That's so.
He saw men amongst them of equal talent, equal education, anc
abiUty in everything, put in contact with men who had other charges,
and though they laboured far more earnestly and protractedly they
accomplished very much less. He loved Methodism in every form
(cheers), but he loved Christianity a great deal better. He went
higher than the ism — he thanked God he had got above the ism.
He wanted to see them do better if they could, whether by means
of union or anti-union. The proposal as to Methodist union did not
commence in either 1859 or 1869. The Chairman and others could
remember that there was a feeling calling for union long before that.
The Church with which they were connected had felt this pressure
for many years past. Let them ask those brethren who had laboured
longest on mission stations, or, indeed, any of their ministers, if they
had not felt this pressure, wherever they had been, for many years
past. This pressure was felt in Toronto, in Hamilton, in London,
and all throughout their work, which for the last twenty-eight years
had been regular uphill work the whole way through (hear, hear) — a
repeated continuous struggle, and nature did not like that. A con-
stant strain would break any man down, and their labours for the
last twenty or twenty-eight years had been so. All honour to those
men who had laboured on mission stations for twenty years, and who
had never got their salary in full. If they could use any other means
of usefulness, or improve any of their present mediums of instrumen-
tality to bring men to Christ, in the name of God let them adopt it,
whether it be union, anti-union, or otherwise. Above all things, let
there be no divisions. He did not profess to see far, but he saw as
distinctly as that two and two make four that the time was coming,
and was not far distant either, when the in fiuence of Protestantism
would have to be united. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) There were
29
counter currents to-day in Toronto (hear, hear, and a voice : ** Yes")
which were setting in strongly against Protestantism (hear, hear,) and
their divisions testified to their weakness. (Cheers.) All the great
Protestant denominations of this land were drawing closer together
without effort. Perhaps he was mistaken, but he thought he saw
that there was a drawing together of the whole Protestant world,
and he believed that God's hand was in this, to accomplish a certain
purpose. (A voice : " It is," and cheers.) He should be glad if the
Chairman and the brethren — the men of God who were present —
could add one fraction to the unification not only of Methodism but
of Protestantism. (Loud Cheers.)
After singing and a short season of prayer the second topic came
up for consideration, Rev. Thomas Crompton, Vice-Chairman . pre-
siding.
THE GEOGRAPHICAL POSITION OF OUR WORK IN
CANADA.
Bro. Cade read the following paper : —
" Our work in this country began in Toronto about forty-five years
ago, and has risen into a great numerical and social power in that
city. The country appointments lie along a central range of dis-
tances chiefly in this Province. Turning eastward from Toronto on
the Grand Trunk Railway, we arrive at Pickering, our first station on
our work east. Passing by Whitby and Oshawa we come to Bow^-
manville, another self-sustaining station. Oshawa was once occupied
by us but has been discontinued. We have no cause in Newcastle,
Port Hope, Cobourg, Peterboro', Lindsay and Belleville, until we
reach Napanee, about twenty-four miles west of Kingston. Napanee,
after twenty years' labour, has been removed from our stations, and a
few country places continued under the name of Roblin. Five miles
west of Kingston is Collinsby Mission. Kingston Mission is the
limit of our work in the east until we reach Montreal. North from
Kingston, on the Kingston and Pembroke Railway, is Portland Mis-
sion, and a little to the north-west Hinchinbfooke, where we have
an unmarried man stationed.
" Coming back to Toronto east, and taking the Toronto and Nip-
pissing Railway, we come to Scarboro', Markham, Sandford, and
reach four of our strongest self-sustaining country stations. We have
no cause in Markham and Uxbridge Villages.
" Starting again from Toronto, this time on the Northern Railway,
we pass by Thornhill, Richmond Hill, Newmarket and Aurora, until
we come to the Village of Laskay, which stands at the head of a
flourishing country circuit. A little further north is Bradford Mis-
30
sion, where we have a small and feeble interest. Turning around to
the north-west we go on until we reach the Collin gwood Mission.
St. Vincent being just beyond has been removed from our list of sta-
tions. Coming back to the northern junction, branching off toward
the Muskoka district, we arrive at Barrie, a thriving and hopeful
mission. In the regions beyond we have Oro, Orillia and Muskoka
Missions.
" Setting out again from Toronto, on the Toronto, Grey and Bruce
Railway, we have Etobicoke and Albion Circuits, and further north
Orangeville, Amaranth, Rosemont, Artemesia and Osprey Missions.
In this locality is Sullivan, now abandoned by us as a station.
" Now let us take the Grand Trunk west. Leaving Toronto, and
passing by Weston, we reach Malton and Brampton Circuits. Then
passing by Georgetown, our next station is Guelph. Further west,
about twelve miles in the interior, is Hawksville Mission. We have
no society in Berlin. Hence we come to Stratford, a town rapidly
increasing in population, where we report a declining interest. Di-
verging a little, Mitchell and Woodham stations appear. These three
stations, once so full of hope, signally failed in anything like material
success, taking into account the means that have been employed.
St. Marys is not on our stations, and we have no work further west
until we come to the McGillivray and Bosanquet Circuit.
" Coming back to Guelph on the Hamilton, Grey and Bruce Rail-
way, we find no Primitive Methodist Society in Elora, we have, how-
ever, adjoining the Peel station a young and flourishing Circuit.
Beyond is Minto, Jubilee, Brant and Kincardine Missions.
" Let us once more come back to Toronto and set out or the
Great Western. Until we reach Hamilton we have no Society.
Many years ago we had promising interests in Cooksville, Wellington
Square and Dundas, but for some cause the appointments were with-
drawn. In the city of Hamilton, we have two stations, a circuit and
a mission. St. Catharines was opened last Conference. Passing
west on the main line we reach Paris, a large and important town,
now abandoned by us after many years of missionary effort. A few
country places have been retained under the name of the Falkland
Mission. The v/est station is Blenheim, once incorporated with Gait.
Gait for many years past has disappeared from our list of stations.
Woodstock is a part of our work, and south-east, about thirty miles,
Walsingham Mission. We have no cause in Ingersoll. In London
we have two ministers stationed. Still going west we come to Cara-
doc, Bothwell, Chatham, Dover, and, diverging a little, Plympton
Missions.
" Leaving Hamilton south we come to Grand River Circuit and
Walpole Mission.
" It will appear that a large portion of our work lies in remote and
inconvenient working distances. Many of the towns and villages of
-*- '•
31
the Province have not been occupied by us, the greater proportion
of our energies being expended upon the scattered populations in
wide country districts. Many of the towns where we have long
laboured hard have had, from various causes, to be relinquished or
held only by the slenderest grasp.
" The sum totals that have been taken off our noble and generous
central circuits to sustain declining or at best stagnant and unremu-
nerative interests is most painful and extraordinary; and the most
startling aspect of the matter is that these enormous sums stated in
Mr. Reid's exhibit have been appropriated to localities where there
has been no lack whatever in Gospel ministration or spirit. It is a
conclusion that must be conceded, that while we have prospered on
many of our stations to an encouraging degree, we have not progressed
in proportion to the population, or increased with all the great ad-
vancing interest of the country in all its denominational, educational,
social and numerical relations. We have not lacked men of conse-
crated talent and energy in our fields, and men of prudence and eco-
nomy in our councils. Our men have worked harder and been paid
less on the average than men in other churches. On our Quarterly
Boards the utmost carefulness has been exercised in the location of
ministers and the appropriation of moneys, and the time has come
for us to decide, with an inteUigent Christian scrutiny, where is the
remedy, and how the Lord's money and the Lord's men may be dis-
tributed most to the advantage of the great cause of Christianity in
general. Many of us have the strongest interest in the success of
the cause in this country. Some of you have freely embarked your
thousands in this work, and some of us have devoted nearly the
whole of our ministerial lives to it ; and if it can appear that as a
denomination in this country we have something to struggle for; some
clear and well defined principle that is worthy of the martyr spirit ;
some distinct and sacred mission from the Almighty to fulfil, let us
know it, and even though we fail here and there, and advance but
little in the aggregate, there are among us those who will give to the
last we have, and labour to the last of life, in this cause. But if, as
our venerable father Crompton, in the same connection, says, ' we
cannot resist the logic of facts,' if the altered circumstances in the
organization and government of the Methodist Church in Canada,
and the exigences of our own work, are crowding the question of
union upon us, however, unwilling and pained we may be to sunder
the associations and sympathies of history, it is to be hoped that we
shall deal with the case with the charity, solemnity and dignity of
Christian men."
Bro. Wood was very sorry that he thought such vast, such almost
infinite influence was attached to the almighty dollars. Primitive
Methodists started in life generally in very humble circumstances, and
many of those present who had thus started are very well off to-day
32
— [A voice, " Bless the Lord !"] (Loud laughter.) He thought it
was the public opinion that Primitive Methodists were as prosperous,
if not more so, as any people in this country. Emigrants who came
out twenty or thirty years ago from the Old Country had accumu-
lated wealth, and Primitive Methodist merchants are not a whit be-
hind others. He wondered that the Master had given them so much
wealth if they make such a bad use of it as has been stated ; and yet,
somehow, it keeps flowing in. He wished to state a fact in opposi-
tion to Bro. Hughan.
Bro. Hughan, rose to a point of order. He had not spoken on
this subject yet
Bro. Wood, continued, that the money had been introduced in
order to present the most gloomy aspect of our work in this country,
and although one brother says he never got his salary, he (the speaker)
could say, that he had never gone without his. The books would
show this. He had no doubt that he would get on very well with
the people in Toronto. Although that remained yet to be seen. He
begged to say, that he simply minded his work, and intended to do
so. Although the Primitive Methodists spent a great deal of money
they seemed to always have plenty to spend. We go out and open
new places of labor, without a parsonage, a Church or a dollar's worth
of property, and of course there must be a great expenditure. He
thought the value of the Church property in the shape of chapels and
parsonages should be taken into account. This property had been
accumulating during the past thirty years, and it probably represented
a larger amount than had been spent in the support of the various
missions.
Bro. Herridge, was inclined to take a more cheerful view
of matters than had been presented by Bro. Cade. Whether we
shall unite with another Church, was not for him to say, but as in the
other case, with these statistics another view may be presented. He
had laboured both extreme east and west, at Kingston and at
Chatham. At the latter station the Primitive Methodist ministers
preach at many places where there is no other place of worship than
their own within two or three miles, and a better field of labour he
never saw. There ministers could go out and visit the people with-
out elbowing out other denominations. In many places, such as
Faulkland, where the speaker was recently stationed, the progress
has not been very rapid, nevertheless healthy churches had been
established, while the people would have had to go altogether with-
out religious services, or be put to great inconvenience if their denom-
ination had not taken the work in hand. He mentioned this to
show that the money had not been thrown away in places provided
by other denominations. He had opposed sending a minister to
Manitoba, because he thought the people there had sufficient reli-
gious advantages, and the work could be prosecuted with better
33
prospects of success in the less favoured places. In Walsingham
and Walpole the minister had ample room for labor. His own
impression was that while it might be necessary in some places to
centre the labours of Methodism ; yet the more men, in some respects,
that are employed, the more thoroughly are people likely to be
evangelized ; and as our towns increase there will be a considerable
number outside who will not be reached by the Churches. He thought
the desire of every one should be to make the people of Canada
Christian people. Hence the money spent in supporting the missions
in the destitute parts is not money thrown away. He mentioned
these facts to show that another view of the case might be presented.
Bro. Goodman, said that there was always a large sum of money
sent from the outside stations as mission money. Last year before
it was given up, Gait town sent in as much money as was contributed
towards it, and that has been the record with other places. Still their
missions were not succeeding as they should do. He thought that
the question to be discussed now was whether the geographical position
of the work was hopeful ? Whether the form of the work was such,
that it could be cirried on better than at present. There was another
point to be considered, and that was, that in many places the principal
trade was in lumber, and when the pine was gone there was nothing
for the missionaries to subsist on, and very little for the people.
A part of Markham circuit was an example of this remark. We ought
to talk about the soil, and the shape of the work.
Bro. MiLNER said there were many places where Primitive
Methodists could not establish a cause, on account of the presence
of Wesleyan Methodists or Bible Christians, because people in this
country care so little about their particular " ism." This is the
reason why town^ and townships have been skipped, and the stations
were in many cases so far apart. Some fields had been entered by
invitation, but from his experience he was inclined to deprecate the
system. A few disaffected persons invited a brother and if he did
not suit them they went back from whence they came. He had
gone over the whole ground and knew Canada as well as any minister
we have, and he was so convinced there were places we cannot go
with any hope of success, because the people there are not favorable
to our movements.
Bro. Haylock, had often wondered why our people left the towns,
and gone to country places. A gentleman had given him an
explanation why some towns had been neglected, which was very sad.
- Where he was stationed, he was in the centre of what were called
four towns — Mitchell is 1 2 miles in one direction. We have a station
there, but in that town the Bible Christian element is built up from
our own people. Had we but the members who have gone to the
the Bible Christians, leaving alone the Wesleyans, we would have
the largest crowd in that town. He had written to the Secretary
34
about taking up work in St. Marys which is 12 miles in another
direction, but he could not go more than once in two weeks, and as
they would growl if he did not reach them every Sunday he had
given up the idea. Bro. Bee and Bro. Boyd had gone up to see the
prospect, and they also concurred in the idea.
After singing and prayer, the Conference adjourned for tea, which
was spread in the large hall.
EVENING SESSION.
After tea the Conference met at seven o'clock, Bro. Crompton
giving out a hymn, and reading I Cor. 13 ch. Prayer was offered
by Bro. Herridge. The Vice-Chairman Bro. Compton, occupied the
chair.
On motion of Bro, Walker it was resolved to adjourn at 9.30 and
re-assemble to-morrow morning at nine.
Resolved, that the first half hour to-morrow be spent in devotion
led by Bros. Compton, Cade and Boyle.
Bro. Bee moved, seconded by Bro. Elliott, that Bro. Cade take
the figures out of his paper on the Geographical Position of the work,
inasmuch as all the figures were gone into in the previous subject.
Bro. Walker wished to make a few remarks on the last topic,
before going on to the next, with respect to this motion he differed
from the meeting with regard to the shape the subject took. The
extraneous matter, he thought, that had come out by the discussion
on the paper was far more important than the subject itself. He had
an objection however, to put in the figures in Bro. Cade's paper, as
they had no business there. They put the matter in a darker light
than it really was. There is no account of the Missionary contribu-
tions from those stations. We may have property in these stations
worth more than all the money sent there, and yet it goes forth that
we are so much out of pocket by these stations. That was the
reason he as Chairman called the speaker to order and asked him to
deduct that extraneous matter. He was exceedingly surprised how-
ever when a large majority of the meeting voted that the figures
should be read in connection wath the document. He hoped the
meeting passed the motion without serious consideration, but if they
still thought the figures should go with the paper he had nothing
more to say.
Bro. Griffith stated that the figures were in the printer's hands.
Bro. Bee thought if they go to the people there would be more
35
about the matter. It was impossible for them to be published with-
out injurious remarks being made.
jj|Bro. GuTTERY said the figures could not be in type yet.
Bro. Goodman said the figures would not have been read, only
that^Bro. Cade was limited to 15 minutes and had to read the paper
as it was.
Bro. Briggs thonght the paper was very little use without the
figures. He was in favour of having them left in.
The Chairman said it was for the meeting to say what they would
do with the figures, but he thought if they were left in they would do
serious damage to the Missionary Committee on their next rounds.
Bro. GuTTERY said to his brethren who sincerely believed that it
would be well to publish the figures, that in his opinion it was
anything but wise to recall what he would term the errors of the
connection in this country. They do it from the belief that it is in
our best interests. But if we take the wisest and most successful
human life and recall its errors, and write a paper on these alone, we
give a very false idea of that life. Then we should not lose sight of
the fact that what we are responsible to God for is our purity of
motive. Suppose we as a connection do what we believe is the
wisest thing under the circumstances, we cannot do more ;
and if after results should show that we have made a mistake
it should not be set down as blame. It is not our fault,
it is our infirmity. He believed the connection had in the
past acted from purity of motive. It is legitimate to show the dark
side, but it doesn't fall in the line of these brethren to show the
strong points. They want to show wherein we are weak. But to
publish those figures without the other side would be unjust. The
statements may be perfectly truthful, yet it is possible to make them
perfectly partial, just as in the history of the life referred to.
Bro. Markham thought the figures were necessary to the proper
reading of the context.
The Chairman could not see the use of belaboring a matter and
putting it forth in all sorts of respects. He acceded to Bro.
Guttery's observations that injustice might be done by publishing
only one side. The meeting should say whether the document was
to be published.
Bro. McLean thought it was not right for the chairman to speak
all the time.
The Chairman thought he knew in the main what to do.
Bro. Marshall asked if Bro. Cade had the best of it, should not
we have the same chance ?
Bro. Milner thought if the paper was published those opposed
could write letters about it and thus bring out ideas that had not
been touched. If it is let go as a matter of news the brightest and
best side will be brought forward. One man will pay attention to
one side and another to the other.
36 •
Bro. Garner said it was a fact that some stations had raised
sums equal to their grants, while the statistical mformation in that
document includes the number of grants during the said years
without the money raised to meet that grant. In other cases $15
or $20 has gone to paying that grant to the said stations. Then we
should take into account the value of property in the shape of
parsonages and churches. He dared say the money and material
property will be equal in some cases, and perhaps more than equal
to cover the grant ; in others it will not. He thought we should
not present the matter in a dark aspect. To say that the missions
can do so much without being credited with the money contributed
and the property, is hardly fair and square.
Bro. Flint said he had a motion.
Bro. Bee said there was a motion before the chair, the design of
which was to pass it at once or not pass it.
Bro. Flint thought it would be unjust to let the paper go before
the public in the present shape. No one has presented the other
side of the question. He thought the brethren who introduced
these reports should give the whole thing, without a one-sided
sketch. It is hardly a fair way.
Bro. MiLNER said he had a document in his pocket, showing
every bright and every dark part. They could leave out Bro. Cade's
speech and let it go as it is.
Bro. Cade thought they would give him credit when he said he
had no idea of straining a point. He just went to work and thought
he was doing it seriously and thoughtfully, but if they thought it
would damage the work in any shape or form he would not for the
world have it got out. It would not grieve him if the paper was
withdrawn.
Bro. Griffith said the motion would exclude the document from
any publication. He understood a committee would be appointed
to look over what was reported, and any matter could be corrected.
If the motion was designed to exclude Bro. Cade's paper altogether
he did not think he could support it.
Bro. Briggs thought it would not be fit to go into the Liberal^ or
the official report either, without the figures.
Bro. McLean did not think the document presented a dark side
of the picture, (hear, hear). In that document the shortness of
salaries is not touched at all. It takes a great deal of the preacher's
money to do the work that is represented them. If there was to be
any more discussion upon it he would have the whole thing set down,
but we have the whole question before us. It would destroy the
document to take the figures out.
Bro. Boyle said there was to be a truthful report. Now those
figures do either convey facts or they do not. Do they ? if they
are false, don't give them to the world ; if they are true, why refuse
them.
37
Bro. Garner said it was true so far as it goes, but should there
not be something placed to the credit of these stations ? we must
have not only the truth but the whole truth. Merchants in their
books keep account of both income and outgo and that was the only
fair way.
The Chairman thought the geographical position of the work could
be set forth without the figures attached. There can be no meaning
to documents when the figures are erased.
The motion was then put and carried by a vote 26 to 24.
Bro. Hugh AN, seconded by Bro. Milner, moved that the whole
document be erased. Lost.
Bro. Briggs, seconded by Bro. McLean, moved that Bro. Bee's
motion be re-considered.
Bro. Bee said the motion should come from the majority, but
though he made the motion it was immaterial if the meeting thought
best to allow it. If the document has to go to the public as it is
there will certainly have to be remarks made that will put a new light
on the subject
The motion to reconsider was carried by 27 to 25.
Bro. McLean said the very moment we begin to cut and carve
we spoil the report. He thought the more the matter was looked
into the better it would be for us.
Bro. Goodman said the document should be published as a whole
or not at all ; for there were several strong sentences passed on the
figures, and if the latter were not published Bro. Cade would appear
to a disadvantage.
Bro. GuTTERY said the original motion was now before the meetings
just as if no vote had been taken. -
Bro. R. Walker said, the report would not go into the nine col-
ums of the Liberal as arranged for— it was too long.
Bro. Griffith stated, on the authority of the Z/^^r^/ reporters, that
it could go in in full quite easily.
Bro. R. J. Walker thought if the figures were taken out the speeches
made on the paper would look foolish.
Bro. Amy thought it was unfair to challenge the opposite side ta
bring in figures against the report, for they could not go through the
books ; it has taken Bro. Cade weeks to go through. These figures
do not only go to the Liberal, if it is decided to publish that paper
in full, but other papers are watching, and they will publish them
from one end of the land to the other, and first impressions usually
last, particularly if they are bad. He would like to knov/ who would
like to go in the fall and read reports at missionary meetings with
these figures in view that were as dark as possible. He begged ta
differ with Bro. McLean in regard to the deficiencies of salary.
They were thrown in. If he were to mark presents and other things-
in salaries, he would not be badly off, and he thought others would
not. 3
^8 •
Bro. Goodman, seconded by Bro. Guttery, moved in amendment
to the original motion, " That we do not publish Bro. Cade's paper
in the Liberal, but we publish it in full in the verbatim, report." He
thought the view presented by the paper was a rather dark one to be
published in the public press while we are negotiating the union.
Bro. HiGGiNBOTHAM would go for the amendment, if a verbatim
report was to be published. If the dark side has been brought out,
there has been no more time allowed for bringing out the dark than
the light side. If the facts stated are truthful, let us have facts on
the opposite side to counteract. Let us deal with facts, and if there
is light to be thrown over the subject let us ha^e it. Let it be un-
derstood there has been no undue advantage taken. Bro. Flint and
others have suggested there has been no time allowed to them. He
presumed that Bro. got his notice when the others did.
Bro. Herridge said, if abrother is requested to prepare a paper, of
course he gives his time to it. There would have been something
understood if a brother had been selected to write an opposite paper.
He (the speaker) would have written another paper if he had been
notified. Facts could be given, and those figures used to put a dif-
ferent phase upon our denomination ; and it is just probable that if
facts of other Christian churches were brought out in comparison, we
would stand as well in our own estimation as others. It certainly
gives a view of the work which he thought was a very dark one, in-
asmuch as facts on the other side are excluded, and it is a garbled
view.
Bro. Guttery said, this document will be a very peculiar one in
church history. Do any of us remember reading in church history
that a church looking for amalgamation took a notion of remember-
ing all the weak points in its past history ? It appeared to him a
most unparalleled proceeding. Would a business man, going into
partnership, go carefully over his books and write out all the errors
of judgment he had made, and show up his weaknesses with a view
that he would commend himself? No man would think of such a
thing. The brethren who were on the Committee, however, were
perfectly justified in the action they took. There has been no in-
justice done to the brethren on the other side. So far as he knew
the Committee, they had acted in the most impartial and gentlemanly
manner to aii the brethren. He did not agree with them in all their
views,but at the same time he never knew men act more impartially.
He thought Bro. Cade would have a chance,for he (the speaker) went
in for the verbatim report. It was due to our friends in England to
' lay the matter fully before them. Let them know all the f^cts in
connection with this question of union. He thought they had no
idea of the number of our brethren in favour of union, or the strength
of the arguments by which union is advocated. He thought Bro.
Cade should have the benefit of the verbatim report. If not, the
39
criticisms on his paper will be published in that report, and surely
the speeches will counterbalance any wrong impression the paper
may make.
Bro. McLean would rather support the mandamus than that any
injustice should be done Bro. Cade, who will have a fair show when
the report and discussion were printed in pamphlet form. He
thought we should get out of the habit of calling names. There had
been so much said about the paper of Bro. Cade, that it would be
better to let it go now. While he was willing to support the amend-
ment and say no more about it, he thought it would have been
better to have let the paper be published in the Liberal as at first
intended.
Bro. Garner contended fqr the paper being complete. It will
go into the public papers and be a matter of history by-and-bye, and
he thought it should be distinctly shown that labour and money
have not been given away altogether in vain.
Bro. McLean, seconded by Bro. Hughan, moved that we publish
a verbatim report in consequence of which the figures of the docu-
ment written by Bro. Cade be erased from the columns of the Liberal
to-morrow.
Bro. Garner asked if the speeches on the document were to be
published ; they were being reported in full.
Bro. GuTTERY presumed there would be a committee of publica-
tion, who would eliminate any matters that would be mere person-
alities in the discussion, but they would not eliminate any figures.
After some discussion on the difficulty of eliminating the figures
in time for publication in the Liberal,
Bro. GuTTERY suggested that the following paragraph be published
in pla'-e of Bro. Cade's paper, in to-morrow's Liberal : — " Mr. Cade
having read an able paper on the geographical position of the
Church in Canada, the following discussion took place."
Bro. Bee thought the word " able " should be left out, the people
should be left to judge about that.
Bro. GuTTERY said the publishers of the Liberal would be
responsible for that expression " able," and he believed the reporters
considered it a very able paper. He then moved that the following
clause be sent to the Liberal, and published where Bro. Cade's paper
occurs : — " After an able paper by the Rev. R. Cade had been read
to the Conference, the said paper being reserved for the verbatim
report, the following discussion took place." The motion was duly
seconded and carried.
Bro. R. Walker then took the chair.
Bro. Bee stated that he had not received a card intimating the
subjects to be discussed, and he complained that while others had
received notice in time, his name seemed to have been omitted.
Bro. McLean desired to make a public apology to Bro. Bee. He
40
was the first minister in the work that did not get a copy of the
card. The mistake was caused pr joably by Bro. Bee living in town.
In this way Bro. Guttery and Bro. Wood were almost omitted. Then
Bro. Bee had given the committee each a cold shouldex when they
went to him that they may have forgotten him. They did not wish
to do that, however, for they wanted to get Bro. Bee in good humour.
(Applause.)
Bro. Bee concurred with Bro. Gardner's views. The missions do
not cost us the grant made year by year. They cost those amounts
less than what they raise themselves in missionary money. In the
report, Jubillee has a grant of $236. It raises in missionary money
$176, costing the missionary society $60 for the year only. There
is thus a very material difference between the gross and the nett
amount. The nett amount should have been taken, and not the gross.
Bro. Cade's paper goes on the same ground as Bro. Reid's, which he
held was a most unfair one. He never saw anything more unfair,
than the presentation to this meeting in relation to our stations. Bro.
Cade travels along our railway line, making remarks of stations as he
comes to them. When he comes to one that has cost a considerable
amount, he takes particular pains to dwell upon that, and as has
been said, make it very dark. We know Bro. Cade these many
years, and we know he has power to make things look just about as
he pleases. If he directs your attention to a subject in which he
wishes to see a bright spot, he will convince you almost in spite of
yourself; but if he take the other view, he will make it as black as a
thunder-cloud, and people will begin to look around them, as Billy
Dawson used to say, for the terrors of the day of Judgment.
Bro. Guttery, — Then it was able ! (Laughter.)
Bro. Bee continued, — He makes those places look dark which
cost the Missionary Society an amount of money, but he does not
show the other side. At other places, he states that we have a cause
here, and then he jumps along. Why ? Because it doesn't suit his
purpose to stay there ! Why ? Because those stations are doing
well — have raised money, and are raising it, and promise to become
self-sustaining. Time was when the Chairman even thought that
Kingston would never make anything, and the sooner it was laid
aside the better. The fact is, Kingston is progressing, and is almost
self-sustaining, and if we do our duty, and sustain it for a little while,
it will be all we want it. It has cost a considerable amount of money,
but the property there is worth all we have expended — perhaps more.
But supposing Kingston remains for 25 years more, as a circuit, they
will give us back as much as we have expended, ai';d more, perhaps.
We shouldn't lose sight of this view. We may spend a great deal of
money on a station, if we see that in future years they are going
to give it back to us, to help to spread the Gospel elsewhere. In all
fairness, Bros. Reid and Cade should have given us something of
41
that. Now they were not in a position to give the figures on the
opposite side, but the meeting would see the reasonableness of what
he had referred to.
Bro. Markham said it was very evident we could not all see alike.
Even the king of whom he had read failed to make two time-pieces
go' exactly alike. But it taught him a lesson not to try and make his
subjects all think the same. The maps shewed that we exist in a
very limited extent in this large country and that we exist chiefly
where least needed as a distinct people. Our hold of this country
is something like that of another body in China. They had a single
missionary and it was said that it was like a needle with a single
thread attached to a whale. Our hold is feeble. In Toronto we are
comparatively strong, but we are weak, weak at the extremities.
(Applause). The heart is tolerably good. We operate in many places
that are full of different bodies. In Bownanville we have a cause,
there are six or seven churches. In Napanee we have never had a
good hold of the town. There are two Methodist bodies in almost
every section of this country, and in many small towns even three.
In Markham circuit there are fourteen different religious bodies, and
we do not reach Thornhill,or Richmond Hill,and we have no interest
in Markham village. Uxbridge has three different Methodist bodies ;
Widder has four, it is a small place too. We have more societies for
the population in proportion than they have in England. Why ?
Because of Nationalities. Kingston has its Irish and Scotch Presby-
terian Churches. Every Nationality has its own preacher and
services, whereas by a little concession large numbers of men might
be saved and large amounts of money saved in carrying on our work.
Some brethren seemed very well satisfied with the progress made.
There have been statements made here that would almost bring the
venerable Bourne from his grave. Twenty years ago a venerable
preacher had said it was time that we, as a society, sustained ourselves;
these years have passed and there was no likelihood of our becoming
self-sustaining. We take money from England when we should be
sustaining ourselves. If we would put our hands in our pockets
and let the money from England go elsewhere the speaker would be
less anxious,|and earnest, and troubled (Applause). Mr Autliffe said
the English Conference had planted their cause here and they were
going to water it. The speaker told Mr. Autliffe that the English
Conference should send the watering pot to Africa, where there are
teeming millions who have not heard the name of Jesus. We are
spending money here merely for the name of a part)^ (Applause). He
(the speaker) preached that money was a talent, and God holds us
it, not as a Conference, at least individually responsible for the use
of it. The speaker then read the following from an English news-
paper : —
" Some things have struck Dr. Valentine, the well-known mission-
ary physician in India. He has come home oppressed with the
thought that there is in India a heathen population equal to that of
Russia, Germany, France, Austria, Hungary, the United States and
Great Britain and Ireland combined, or 240,000,000 with about one
missionary to each million. India's population is increasing 4j4 to
5 per cent, annually, while the number of missionaries is less than
it was ten years ago, despite the large increase of American and
German laborers. Dr. Valentine has come from a district (the
Rajpootana) with a population nearly equal to that of the whole of
Scotland where for years he was the only missionery and where now
there are but two P^uropean laborers. He now comes into Scotch
villages, having, say, 2,500 souls and finds six or seven
churches of different denominations, each having its own minister, or
worse, he finds a village with two or three churches of his own
sect, and the only excuse of the overcrowding is " We have been
accustomed to our own congregation, to having our own mmister
and ordinances, and we should be sorry to give them up." He
finds ministers labouring faithfully in petty fields who would gladly
choose the wide foreign work if they had the opportunity over again,
and chides the Church for pressing on its theological student the
chains of narrow and over-crowded home work, to the neglect of
perishing heathendom. Dr. Valentine's pungent contrasts between
over supply at home and under supply abroad, will apply, if not with
equal, still with considerable force to this side of the Atlantic." The
speaker continued that the map shows how we are spending
strength, energy, lives and money, and in many instances are worse
off after ten or even more years than before. Can we remedy this
evil, this burden, this wrong in any way? If the brethren who
are not in favour of union could show how the remedy could be
effected in any other way he would go in for it. He did not
say that Methodist union was t/ie way to remedy it. Can we
pull up our stakes and go to a country whence the cry comes
— " come over and help us ?" In Canada this cry is never heard.
The Rev. Mr. Hooper, an aged Bible Christian minister, has said
that 25 years ago the common cry to our Mission Boards was
*' Send us a minister," but now he says that cry seldom comes. This
country is full to overflowing with different denominations. Even
Muskoka is as well supplied, for its population, as Toronto.
Manitoba is as well supplied as Toronto, the number of inhabitants
considered. If the brethren could find any way of changing our
map, of turning our efforts from where we have too much preaching
to where we have too httle, he would be very willing to do so. But
let us not, for the sake of perishing souls, for Christ's sake, go on as
we have been going these last twenty years.
The Chaiiiman thought there had been very little said about
altering the geography of the work, Bro. Markham has not told us
how we can improve it.
43
Bro. Crompton respected the convictions and views of Bro. Mark-
ham. The speaker had certain convictions and impressions that in
one respect he wished he had not, for he could not resist the logic
of facts altogether. Yet after all it is possible for us to lean on one
side so much that we overlook to a large extent the other side of the
same su iect. A great deal could be said about the money question,
but he wanted to speak of the geographical position. Most all of
Bro. Cade's speech, leaving out the figures, could be said about the
Baptists and Congregational communities in this land, and largely
about the Methodist Episcopal Church. We have comparatively
small bodies. The Baptists are a small body, and they have a cause
yonder, and a considerable country intervenes between their cause
yonder and their cause there. Their geographical position is in a
spider-like way to a considerable extent. He said this with regard
to fact. The Congregational body have a strong cause in Montreal,
and a noble band of men and women there. Come up the country"
from Montreal and how many churches have they till you get to
Kingston ? From Kingston towards Bowmanville how many are
there ? They have a good cause in Belleville and other places here
and there, but a great deal that is said about us can be said about
them. The Methodist Episcopal Church are numerically three times
as large as we are. They occupy comparatively few centres of popu-
lation. They are pretty extensive in rural districts in some localities.
Then in some places they don't exist at all. They are not known
near Barrie, except in Collingwood, where their existence is limited.
Bro. Briggs rose to a point of order. He did not think it was
right to draw comparisons with other churches — Congregational and
Baptist.
The Chairman did not think the speaker's remarks were criticisms.
Bro. McLean thought there was no parallel between us and the
denominations referred to.
Bro. Crompton thought we should mention corresponding facts.
He only meant that there A-ere other denominations like ourselves in
many stations. It had been a great grief to him that they were not
more generally spread, and he considered it a strange fact that our
cause should have originated so many years ago and the towns up
Young Street had not been occupied yet. He thought a plan should
be adopted like that at home, where the large, strong cause sustained
the smaller branches. He thought it would be a good thing if our
Carlton Street Church would spread its funds in taking a mission and
calling it a branch, and keeping to the disciplinary salaries there.
Then let the Queen Street cause take some towns around. In the
old country some cities took Glasgow and sustained it out of their
mission fund. If we really are to continue as a distinct body it
would be well to take some place like this. He regretted that there
were such breaks between stations. He had felt deeply concerned
44
since he came to Canada — twenty years ago — that there had not
been some systematic effort among the centres of population. While
we regret this state of things let us ask ourselves, can it be improved.
He thought there was a possibility, if we remain as a distinct body,
of improving ourselves.
Bro. McLean called attention to the unfair allusion to the
Congregational and Baptist bodies. From this standard, Bro.
Crompton desired to establish a parallel, but there was none
between those bodies and our own. With them there is no division
as a source of weakness. We do not find the cause of our weakness
so much in the shape of our work, but in our division as a Metho-
dist family. The Congregational churches are each in themselves
independent communities. The Baptist body is something the
same. They have been only able to plant churches where there
was a Baptist or congregational sentiment, but nowhere, except
where there is a difference in free will or open communion, are they
weak on account of divisions. If the Congregational body is weak
it is not because there are five sections or more Congregationalism.
In our cause division is a source of weakness. (Applause.)
Bro. GuTTERY was going to characterize one of the suggestions of
Bro. Crompton as very disinterested — that part of the salary now
paid to ministers should be devoted to the mission work : He
intended to go in for that as soon as he was superannuated.
(Laughter.) The matter presents difficulties in this way : when they
met together in missionary committee — even since he had been in
Canada — he had to stand up and battle against what he considered
the over-carefulness in the use of the money committed to their
charge. He had thought that if they pinch our brethren at two ends
they had done everything they could to carry out the idea that
God's money should be sacredly spent. If it was necessary to
carry out this conscientious conviction, as a committee, does not
the same thing hold in the Church on a much broader scale ?
(Hear, hear.) And if there is more money spent in some places
for Methodist agency than there should be, isn't there guilt
somewhere ? (Hear, hear.) He did not say that in every place
Primitive Methodists should give up their work, (hear, hear,) for
there were many places where our good brethren of other deno-
minations were willing to act in harmony. He did not think
any of them wanted union on the principle of Jonah and the whale
— that they should open their mouth and we should hop down.
But in cases where other Methodist bodies were working it was
fair to ask which of the two should retire. But whether we go
in for union or not the Methodist conscience of Canada must
entertain this grave question of the expenditure of Methodist
money. He could not feel that we were all guiltless in the matter ;
and he thought that we who are so careful that missionaries will
45
not get more than they are forced to have, should be careful not
to spend money where it was not wanted. He had heard two
men conversing in a car about Methodism. One told how his
minister had called upon him and said, " I have a matter on my
mind to talk to you about." The man asked what it was, *' Well,"
said the minister, " I think you want a little more of the Lord in
your business." ' " Why ?" " Because I think, said the minister,
" If my people had a little more of the Lord in their business,
I should not have a deficiency of salary. I will give you a
week to think about the matter." In a week the minister called.
He asked the merchant what he thought now. The man replied :
" I think you preachers want a little more common sense in your
business." " What do you mean ?" *' It is this, we are in a small
village. I keep one dry goods store. There is only room for one.
Do you think that if three other merchants were to come here
we would all stop and starve i* Now you have three Methodist
churches and three preachers. The three churches would sustain
one good church and one minister, and one church would hold
the whole congregation. And yet you go on spending money to
support the three. You want a little more common sense !" He
thought there was a good deal of force in that logic. (Hear, hear,
applause). If there are some who cannot see their way to union
— and there are a lot — let us at least consider how we spend the
money that is given us of God. The guilt that has accumulated is
the injudicious use of that money.
Bro. Mathews had been a Primitive Methodist since he was
fourteen years old and had spent fourteen years in the work in this
country. He had seen a good many missions and nothing had
pressed so hard on his mind as the fact that he could not succeed in the
ministry as he would like to. He was positive, as far as certain places
were concerned, that the reason we have not succeeded in getting
more persons in our community was that we could not make bricks
everj'where because we can't find the clay. Some years ago he visited
Bosauquet — a small place — and while he was preaching in the fore-
noon the Wesleyan Methodist minister was waiting within a stone's
throw till he would leave, and then he would go and preach to the
same congregation. On Peel circuit — where the people had used
him better than any place else he had to contend with six Wesleyan
Methodist preachers — three married and three single ones. Their
work laid within a circle of six miles, while he had thirty-six miles in
one day to do his work. If he had continued labouring as he did
then he could not have . tood it, and that was the reason why, four
years ago, he sent in his resignation and asked to be superannuated.
No living man could stand it, and no Station in existence can main-
tain their ground when they have one minister against six. In seven
miles in Peel Township there are not more than a dozen families
46
out of which we can gather material, and so in many other neighbor-
hoods. To send a man into a neighbourhood and tell him to make
bricks where there is no clay, any man feels this very heavily on him.
In the matter of union he would just like the right thing to be done.
If we could succeed in this country as a distinct denomination he
would say, let us stand as we are. If we do what is right and are
guided by God, irrespective of all sectarian feelings we shall come
out successfully at the last.
Bro. Cade said he had not made his report as dark as it might
have been made. A number of items such as expenses for removal
of furniture, &c. have never been taken into consideration at all. In
the drawing up of the report he very innocently thought he was con-
tributing a little to the interests of all concerned. There was his
blunder. He was an innocent kind of being. He did it in child-
like simplicity and he thought it would elicit a little conversation.
He had no idea of giving a dark and dismal color to anything. He
thought the friends had omitted to notice the bright spots he had
interspersed. It was said here and there that " There were hopeful
prospects here," and instead of picking out a sore spot here pretty
nearly all the mission stations have been mentioned. He had
endeavoured to place before them a truthful but painful picture,
which had perhaps been more painful to him than to any one
present.
Bro. McLean suggested that we hear Bro. Roger's address this
evening, in order to have time to think over it.
Bro. GuTTERY thought it important to close now.
It was resolved that on to-morrow an hour and a half be devoted
to question No. 3, and that the discussion on No. 4 do not
exceed two and a half hours.
It was resolved to meet at 8.30, adjourn for dinner at 12, then
meet at i, and adjourn at three to-morrow.
The Conference closed with singing and prayer at 7.30 p. m.
47
SECOND DAY.
Thursday, April 15.
The Conference opened this morning at 8.30 by a prayer meeting
for half an ho ir, Bro. Robt. Walker in the chair. After a portion of
Scripture was read, and the roll called, the third topic was taken up-
The number of delgates was much larger than on the first day.
THE DISTINCTIVE FEATURES OF METHODISM IN
CANADA.
The Chairman suggested that the brother opening would confine
his remarks to 15 or 20 minutes, and those following about 10
minutes, a^ it would allow much larger scope for expression.
Bro. Boyle opened his remarks by asking " what was Methodism ?"
It was one of God's great spiritual forces, sent down from Heaven for
the purpose of converting men, and when the day of eternity dawns
upon us, it will be seen that Methodism will have had much to
do in preparing a great part of the world's population for the bright
inlieritanco of the saints. It was utterly impossible for him to speak
too flatteringly of Methodism. One of its first distinctive features
was love to the common brotherhood, and to the great Methodist
family in particular. Where this fails to characterize the conduct of
professed Methodists to each ether we fail to recopying that type of
Christianity which characterized the Wesleys and Whitfields and
Fletchers of olden time. The law of Methodism, as the divine law,
can find its fulfilment in our loving one another. Another distinctive
feature of Metiiodism is self-abnegation — labouring not for self, but
for the purpose of ameliorating the condition of others. Everywhere
since Methodism began to bless the world, we find this high
developement of Christian character among her advocates. The next
distinctive feature he would name was Aggression. Not satisfied
with the victories gained, she braces herself for future and we trust
greater conquests. This has characterized her ever since the days of
John Wesley. Everywhere she has made inroads upon the territory
of Satan, and she is destined to do so until the world from one end
to the other shaU be blessed and shall be laid at the foot of the Lord
Jesus, robed in the robes of righteousness and sanctified and devoted
to God. Looking back upon the history of Methodism no church has
been more aggressive. He was not satisfied with this assertion. No
church, her agents and her ability considered, has been equally
aggressive. In the days of Wesley how marvellously she succeeded,
and afterwards in the days of Burn. In England — that land of
48
Christian benevolence, Christian freedom, and Christian liberty, — may
that freedom and liberty continue to live until the death knell of
time shall have sounded out from the high dome of glory — the church
has made wonderful progress. But she is in danger, depend upon it,
she is in danger. It is ours to pray for the liberty of Methodism and
every type of Christianity in that happy and prosperous country.
But in that land Primitive Methodism for the first 35 years has had
no peer. She has stood out in bold relief as the most efficient instru-
mentality brought to bear upon the moral condition of that happy
country. (Hear, hear). Would to God we could say the same of our
Church in this land, but we are doubtless doing the best we can.
(Hear, hear.) Another distinctive feature of Methodism is adhesion —
she is coming together. She is drawing more and more back toward
herself. The time has passed when Protestantism can afi'ord to be cut
up into fragmentary parts. The scenes surrounding us, the history of
the times in which we live, the condition of Protestantism in England
and in other lands, prove this to a demonstration, and we must indeed
be very blind and have no seer's eye should we fail to recognize the
dangers of the times. This adhesion has necessitated the calling to-
gether of this tendency to adhesion. The men before whom he stood
— men of intelligence and piety and self-abnegation — men who intend to
strain their power to their highest tension and incessantly labor
for the future glory of God. He prayed that God would bless
them and help them in their labor of love. (Applause.) Another
distinctive feature of Methodism is equality, and on this point he
would speak more particularly. We are not in this country as we
would be in the Old Country. Here we stand, as a denomination,
socially and civily, on an equal footing with the largest Churches of
the land. Here we have not the caste that we find in other lands.
But this equality, looked at under the surface, may have a tendency
to prove weakness. The time has past when an uneducated and
undisciplined ministry can suit the times. (Hear, hear.)
In consequence of our equality with other Churches it is necessary
that we present society with a ministry as well disciplined as thorough-
ly educated, and as efficient, as the ministers of the largest churches
of the country. Denominationally we have hitherto been unable to
Bupply the country with a ministry in its collective capacity, educa-
tionally equal to some churches he could name. In consequence of
this being the case our equality presents unto us a difficulty. We
have, it is true, paid some attention to this matter, but unfortunately,
as in other things, we have to some extent failed. But it is marvel-
lous with all our difficulties and disadvantages that our young men
have had to meet with and our elder brethren have had to cope with,
is it not marvellous that we have such an efl&cient ministry as we
have to-day. But who will deny the fact that educationally we can-
not present the country with that type of ministerial ability so fneces-
49
sary to suit the country in their intellectual expectations ? This was
one reason why, he argued, Methodism should seek to come together,
and if she accomplishes thismuch, difficulty in the way to onward progress
with regard to an efficient ministry will certainly be taken out of
the way. Can we be shown any other way of meeting the difficulty 1
We cannot afford to send our young men to England to our excellent
institutions there to be educated. If we could, he would be the first
to say, let them go. Another distinctive feature of Methodism in
Canada is to, as far as possible, make the best use of the means and
appliances with which a kind Providence may favor us, whether those
means relate to money or men. He believed the money collected by
our people was the Lord's money, and we ought to be as careful and
conscientious and particular, not to say as penurious — he did not wish
that taken in its wrong sense — when we are meting out the Lord's
money as when we are meting out our own. He believes the Almighty
holds us responsible for the use we make of our talents, whether of
money or of means. No Methodist denomination has any right to go
into any neighbourhood where peradventure she may not be sub-
stantially required, and waste the energies of her men and spend
money, while men and money are more needed in other parts. The
matters of yesterday brought these things out ; and after all that may
be thought or said to the contrary, we cannot stand up and intelligently
boast that we have not lost sight of this. We have, unfortunately for
ourselves, in some localities been labouring when very likely our
services were more required elsewhere. Holy, consecrated zeal was
another distinctive feature. He was glad to know that he was con-
nected with a race of men who, according to the assertion already
made, have done the greatest amount of labor for the smallest pay of
any in the church of the Lord Jesus. He knew that this has its
effect, and might be talked for or against, but there is something of
the true Gospel ring in it. It showed that this dear brethren did not
enter the ministry for a morsel of bread, but because God had touched
their hearts. (Applause.) In consequence of this, notwithstanding
all their difficulties, we have been greatly successful, and God will
bless us. But the distinctive feature of Methodism to-day, is coming
together. (Applause.) The speaker might be put down as a union
man or an anti-union man. He would just as soon be put down for a
union man to-day as a non-union man, so long as the glory of God
was advanced. One thing was certain, that the tendency in this age
of the Protestant Church is adhesion and the coming together. There
was never a time when the nonsense of Eitualism presented so bold a
front, or exhibited such a tendency to running down the incline plane
to Popery ; when it was more necessary for the Protestant Churches
to cease, if they have had any polemics of an unkind character, to
forget that and remember their differences, and come like a mighty
phalanx to the help of the Lord against the mighty. (Applause.)
to
Whether we are Methodists, Baptists, Congregationist'^, or Primitive
Methodists, God will bless us if we do our duty. May we go home
possessed of a kind feeling towards each other, and determined to
work in true fellowship for Christ.
Bro. GuTTERY asked if there were any strangers in the loom.
Bro. Cade hoped to be excused, but if everything that was said was
to be published they should scarcely be so particular.
Bro. Reid said that Bro. Gilbert was not present to keep the door.
The Chairman appointed Brother Barron door-keeper.
Brother Wood spoke next. He hoped he would not be interrupted,
as he never interrupted others. He chose also to digress provided he
would not waste time. He promised not to exceed seven minutes in
speaking. He said there was one distinctive feature of Methodism not
touched — (A voice — " A great many, my brother") — and it was the
essential necessity of reliance upon the Holy Ghost. There was
another fact to be placed beside those already given on education,
namely that God has raised up such men as Moody and Sankey, and
is perfectly confounding the educated ministry of the day by such
agents. The speaker thought that if the Methodism of the venerable
and ever to be honoured Wesleys had been perfect there would not
have been so many splits and scliisms to-day as there are. (Hear,
hear.) Any community of Methodists which retain the features of
the Methodism of the present day will be liable to splits and schisms,
and cannot hold together long, and if all the Methodists on this
continent were one to-day they would be going in less than twenty-
five years at rapid speed towards Popery. The tendency of the
subject brought before us is, coming together, and the union of all the
Methodist Churches. There is no suitable denomination for Primitive
Methodists to unite with. We are Methodistic in doctrine, but
Presbyterian in Church government. If we were to join the so-
called Methodist Church of Canada, not one in live hundred of our
laymen would ever go to a Conference, and that but once in four
years. The Bible Christians are discussing the propriety of calling
themselves Presbyterian Mechodists. If they do this, they will then
become the only denomination anything like ourselves. But the
tendency of union is towards greatness — something great, magnificent,
extraordinary. It looks very much like ambition, to gratify which
the rights of the inotfensive people may go to the winds. A magnifi-
cent river flowing through the estates of a few rich men may be a
grand thing, but God wants to irrigate and fertilize the whole country ;
therefore. He wants smaller streams also. Gideon's army of 30,000
was too large till he reduced it to 300. But if we must amalgamate
with 'greatness, let us go to headquarters at once. For priestly power
there are no two churches so much alike as the Methodist Church of
Canada and the Roman Catholic Church. He said this exclusively
in reference to the discipline of the Methodist Church (p. 77.) In
51
answer to the following question, "What are the duties of Superin-
tendents 1"
Ans. — To preside in all official meetings of the Circuit in the
ahsence of the Chairman of the District, and to make all nominations
to office.
" It shall be considered as a principle in Methodist Discipline that
no court shall be recognised as Methodistic in which the Minister or
preacher does not preside."
Bro. HiGGiNBOTHAN hopcd Mr. Wood would not reflect upon other
denominations.
The Speaker said he spoke on his own responsibility, and did not
stand in his place as a representative of any one but himself.
Bro. McLean thought Mr. Wood should be allowed to go on.
The Speaker continued — This union agitation, moreover, is a viola-
tion of the ministerial pledge. All our ministers on entering solemnly
and sacredly promise that they will cultivate and promote peace . l
soul-saving, and the general good of the connexion to which tbey
belong ; but Methodist union means to break up the connexion.
When the Speaker wanted to advocate Methodist union he would
deliver himself from his Ministerial pledge and ordination vow ; he
would cease to feed and clothe his family with money sacredly
contributed by loyal Primitive Methodists. Whatever privileges lay-
men may have, the paid agents of the Church ought to be the last to
puU the house down over the heads of those who pay them. One
missionary tells his congregation that there is no more need of two
Methodist Churches in Canada than of two moons. Another sits down
and writes thirteen letters in one day, advocating Methodist union.
The wealthy Brother in whose house he writes, has already been won
over to union, and he say ?, " Write away. I'll pay the postage." And
these brethren receive their salaries out of the mission fund There
had been a good deal said about the mis-appropriation of money. He
did not think Bro. Walker would pay his agents to go and write
down and preach down the " Golden Lion." This agitation is very
unwelcome to Primitive Methodists generally. They, want to be let
alone, and left in quiet possession of their own home. They look
upon their ministers and class-leaders as executors and trustees of
their own institutions, and they want to dwell in peaceful possession
of the birth-right and inheritance ; and they think they have as much
right to exist as any one else. The agitation is also in opposition to
the Home Conference, who are laid under moral obligations to the
English Conference, the latter being shareholders in the concern.
The speaker thought the man who would not acknowledge his obliga-
tions, unless compelled by law, is no man. There ought to be sufficient
moral principle in any man to honour his own obligations. It was
the duty of the Canadian Conference to confer with the English
Conference before another word is said about union. They are at
least entitled to be heard in this matter.
52
Bro. HuQHAN had been delighted and blessed by the able address
of Bro. Boyd. He (the Speaker) was a Primitive Methodist, and had
lived and laboured for Primitive Methodism for a long time, but he
loved the Lord Jesus Christ better than any " ism" he knew of in the
world. He wished to correct a remark made by Bro. Wood in
reference to that wonderful pledge he took. He (the Speaker) stood
altogether free from that, for he had never signed it, and so with
regard to his conscience he was clear upon that point if there had
been any agitation. He did not know w^ho the brother had charged
with agitation of union. It could not be him, for he had other work
to do. If the union had reference to Christ he had endeavoured to
preach it, and get men and women united to Christ. That had been
the object and aim of his preaching of late. He had not agitated the
question in the way stated, and he did not know of any brother who
had, although his name had been connected with the " union move-
ment." If his sympathies were for union, he had become a union
man from honest and prayerful conviction. He was not always thus.
He did not know a Methodist Church to-day — and he thanked God
he did not — that is in a parallel with the Papist Church. (Hear,
hear.) He had never seen a Popish Methodist parson yet. He had
worked among Methodist Ministers of all kinds, and found some of
them the best men that ever trod God's earth. (A Voice — " And
liberal.")
Bro. GuTTERT did not think these interruptions should be allowed.
The Chairman thought all the brethren were God-fearing men, and
he did not like to interfere.
Bro. E ASTON wished he could be allowed to say a word or two now.
Bro. HuGHAN continued — With regard to their liberality, he had
found them ever ready to help him and treat him as a brother in the
Lord. What are the distinctive features ef the several bodies of
Methodism in this country to-day 1 Do we preach a diiferent Gospel 1
!No. Do we preach different doctrines from that Gospel 1 No. We
have the same doctrines as those handed down b} Wesley and his
compeers, and those recognised in all Methodist Churches to-day, and
that is the standard of Methodism. He believed the words of the
sainted Wesley in accordance with God's own Word. We have not
different principles in connection with our doctrines. In our mode of
worship, our Church forms, where is the distinction ? Have we any
meetings that the Methodist bodies do not have? No. Class
meetings, prayer meetings, fellowship meetings, band of hope meet-
ings, meetings in connection with associations, and meetings to lead
our people into the higher life or Christian holiness. These are all
common in Methodist Churches to day. He could not see any distin-
tive features in Primitive Methodism to-day. There is only one
Church that stands out, and that is the Episcopal Methodivst Church.
They have some distinctive features that we have not, but comparing
53.
ourselves with what is now the Methodist Church of Canada what
have we different ? They have the laity in their Church courts, and
with all respect to the government of the Primitive Methodist Church,
their laymen have more power to-day than our laymen have. The
influences of their quarter-days are felt when ours are not. He was
speaking to a brother not long since who was going to a charge, and
who said he had been asked for by a quarterly meeting. I said, '* But
your brethren will not respect that." He replied that they could not
do other vvise than as the quarterly meeting wishes. We say we have
two laymen to one minister. He had his own views on that, and he
did not think we had been benefitted by so many (hear, hear), and the
intelligent part of our laymen themselves have said that we have not.
In the legislative body of the Methodist Church to-day the laity are
properly represented, and they have an equal standing and position in
their highest legislative court. He for one failed to see that we have
one peculiarly distinctive feature different from those we term the
liberal Methodist bodies of this great country. Then, again, have we
a distinctive people to preach the word of life to ] If he were in
England as aPrimitive Methodist minister he would not advocate union
to-day, because our people have been working among the working
classes of society, and have done a mighty work. But he asked, have
we to-day the working-classes with us, and have the others none ]
Comparing their Churches with ours, we find they have the working-
classes, and we have very few. He could not see that we have any
distinguished feature in our work in Canada. He used to think he
saw it best ; he could not see it now. The working classes flock to
their churches, and take an active part in the services. Then where
are our open-air services that we used to have in years gone by 1 Ours
have gone by, and theirs have sprung up. Then the camp-meetings —
how many do we have 1 They have drifted into what we call Primi-
tive Methodism, and we have drifted into something else. He could
not see that \^e have any particular or peculiar work to do but what
could be done, and done better in a united capacity. Bro. Wood
knows that the ministers have not been paid out of the mission fund.
The missionary himself has paid a large part of his salary. His memory
must have failed him.
Bro. Wood — I am truthful ; the books wiU prove what I said.
Bro. Matthews begged to differ with Bro. Wood.
The Chairman recommended that the speaker would not charge
Bro. Wood with falsehood.
Bro. HuGHAN begged pardon if he accused Bro. Wood of falsehood.
He said his memory failed because he (the speaker) knew facta
different. He did not believe Bro. Wood was capable of telling an
untruth if he knew it. At the same time, every man that has been on
a mission station knows that he has to a certain extent to contribute
largely into the funds of the Church. It would bo well to keep to
4
54
facts as they really are. He did not see that it has anything to do
with our remaining as we are to-day — a weak, crippled, and
inefficient body. He believed in union, and he believed in the Word
of the Lord Jesus Christ. He did not believe that union tends to
Popery, when the blessed Saviour prayed that they may be all one.
(Hear, hear.) He might be too liberal in his interpretation of the
word, but we cannot show a better Christian spirit than by drawing
together, and if there are any differences drop the minor ones, and
present one united Church all over the world as well as over Canada.
Bro. Matthews rose to explain that Bro. Wood's memory must
have failed him when he said yesterday that he had always received
his salary. The minutes would show that for the first two years the
speaker was on Scarboro' circuit with Bro. Wood, he (the speaker) had
not been paid, and when he was there there was a deficiency of $20
each year of the two years.
Bro. Wood had only to say that to the best of his recollection his
salary was made up by presents and contributions on leaving the
station.
The Chairman — Those presents come in very nice.
Bro. Herridge thought this meeting was held with a view, if
possible, of reducing the number of Methodist bodies in Canada.
Bro. Boyd had taken a wide view and referred to the actual number
of distinctive features. But one particular feature in the history of
Methodism is its divisions. There are eighteen distinct Methodist
denominations, including those in the British Isles and on this conti-
nent. Conversing the other day with an Episcopal Methodist
minister in Hamilton, he was disposed to attribute thc^e separations
to " those fellows over in England." Well, now the fi'rst division in
llio Methodist camp occurred on this continent. There are twelve
district denominations including the Methodist Episcopal Church
north and the Episcopal Methodist Church .south. There are twelve
Conferences of Methodists in the United States, and the first of these
divisions took place two or three years before the separation of the
Wesleyan new connexion in England. He did not wish to go into the
matter at any length, but such was the case. There are sixteen bodies
in England, including the British Wesleyans in Ireland. As the
meeting had been called for the purpose of decreasing if possible the
number of divisions, it was well to look at the cause of division.
He thought the history of the divisions in the Church of Christ, going
back to the 9th century, when the division took place between the
Latin and Greek Churches, it will be found that all these divisions
have arisen from a certain feature in the management of ecclesiastical
attairs. (Hear, hear.) He did not mention the cause.
Bro. Cade thought that the question of discussion was the distinc-
tive features of Methodism. What is the mission of Methodism ?
He believed the Episcopal Church has its mission -, and the Baptist
55
Church has its mission. They all believed that — at least he did.
(Hear, hear.) He thought one of the distinctive features of Metho-
dism in general was scriptural holiness as expounded by the great
founder, and its mission was to spread scriptural holiness through
the land. The text of the German reformation was, " Being
justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus
Christ." The text of Methodism is, " The blood of Jesus Christ,
God's 3on, cleanseth us from all sin." The great mission of
Methodism is to stand by the atonement of blood. The tendency of
this age is to preach a Christianity without a Christ — an atone-
ment without blood. Our mission is to preach, that without the
shedding of blood there is no reinission of sins. As soon as the
Methodist bodies began to cease preaching the doctrine and practice
of scriptural holiness they began to squabble and divide. Another
distinctive feature, as quaintly remarked, was, a work for every one
and something for everybody to do. Another distinctive feature of
Methodism is the utilization of woman's influence in our church and
work. The other churches had scarcely learned the mission and
power of women in the Church until Methodism had taught us how
to utilize woman influence. He thought it a mistake that our women
are ceasing to pray in our prayer-meetings, (hear hear,) and to labour
as they did in the earlier days of Methodism. Another distinctive
feature was the class-meeting. The great difference — or one of the
great diff'erences — between Wesley and Whitfield was their ideas on
the class-meeting. John Wesley was a great organizer, and he
organized a class-meeting ; and as a result Wesley will be remem-
bered when Whitfield will be forgotten. It will be a calamity to
Methodism, and to Canadian Methodism, when ministers and people
allow the class-meeting to drop out. In answer to Bro. Wood's
remarks, though the Speaker's circuit would probably cast a unani-
mous vote in favour of union, they never heard him say a word
about it.
Bro. Amy said it had been thrown out that the union question
had not been agitated outside the Conference by our ministers.
At their last district meeting their ministers and some of their
laymen had tilled his hand with circulars in favor of union. He
could not blame the laymen so much, for he thought they had a
a right to do more than the mi.nisters, for they were not paid
agents so much, and can go honorably and honestly into the union
question. The circulars came from a caucus somewhere.
Bro. McLean — Please take that word " caucus " back.
Bro. GuTTERY said that Bro. Amy should not be interrupted.
Bro. Amy said that those who interrupted him knew he could not
speak so well afterwards. He continued : When he refused to take
these circulars around his circuit some one, and he thought he knew
his writing, had sent them around to his people who were not in
96
favor of union, but were staunch Primitive Methodists to a man,
(Hear, hear.) Relative to the power that is in their quarterly meet-
ings in the other Methodist body's than our own, which has
been remarkable. But who last year at the February quarterly
meeting was more for putting them down than Bro. Hughan ?
(Question). He maintained that the invitation system gives the
other body a power in their quarterly meetings. He thought that
while we are wonderfully careful over saying anything about other
denominations, perhaps it is perfectly right for the glory of God,
for the extension of His Kingdom in regard to our own denomina-
tion, we should be equally careful against going down and bringing
up anything against it. We ought to be careful in that particular,
and our every aim as God's ministering servants should be to
propagate the gospel and glorify His name. It seemed to him that
some of us where like the sons of the prophets in the days of
Elisha — the place is too straight for us and we must get out. We
can go to Jordan but we must be careful we do not lose our axe, for
there will be no Elisha to raise it. We can go after all if we do not
continue to publish abroad our weakness and littleness. If we go
forth loyal men and women we may branch out in another sense so
that the place will be too small for us. There are many places were
a minister is never seen, even in Manitoba, and there is room for us.
He did not think we should be seeking to take bricks from other
churches, but we have as much right to the kiln as any other, and
we may get brick from the world. There is clay in many places
where we have seen through wrong spi^ctacles and it looked like
sand.
Bro. Haylock said he stood in a very peculiar position. Some
of those who were nearest to him in ties of blood were Catholic
priests. He had always held that Methodists were trying to get to
Heaven, while he had for years deplored the position of his Roman
Catholic friends. If he was to be told what he had heard to-day
then all right. Some time ago he had occasion to write a letter to
his Catholic friends deploring what he believed was the darkness in
which they had been brought up. One of them, a priest, wrote him
back asking, if he should turn which of the many conflicting sects of
Protestantism he would advise him to join to. That question had
been a source of anxiety to him for many years past, but if our
Methodist friends were so much like his Roman Catholic friends, he
would feel easy in regarding his Catholic relations after to-day. He
considered the remarks of his brother in regard to the Methodist
Church very questionable. The man who brought him to Christ, at
least, was as far removed from the Pope as any man he knew of.
In regard to the invitation system Bro. Ewen was mistaken. So
far from working against it he brought it into our Conference.
57
Rev. T. GuTTERY called attention to one or two features of the
debate. He was especially reluctant in critizising Bro. Wood's
speech. He exceedingly deplored the fact that he was compelled
to repudiate the entire spirit of his address, (hear, hear,) for he had
great respect for him personally. He was sure Bro. Wood would
bear with him while he referred to the address. Regarding John
Wesley, considering the age in which he lived, considering thL" he
was the son of an Episcopalian clergyman, that he lived in a time
when the questions of freedom and religious liberty where not dis-
cussed as now, there never was a man whose ministry was more
admirable than John Wesley's. Respecting the Methodist Church
of Canada, he must say he thought there was no Church on the
Continent or in Christendom, that presents a more determined front,
a more compact antagonism to Romanism than the Wesleyan
Methodist. (Applause.) How it can be possible for the Church in
twenty-five years to be drifting down to Popery he could not under-
stand. He believed that in twenty-five years more the churches of
present day would be established as strong buttresses against the
advances of Popery. He was very glad Bro. Wood had consented
to withdraw the imputation upon the ministers of the Methodist
Church of Canada. At the same time we must not lose sight of the
facts on which those remarks were based. There is a sub stratum of
truth in those remarks. Some people say they do not see the
diflference between us and the Methodist Church of Canada. In
the latter ther^ 's given to the ministry a spiritual rank or 'eccles-
iastical rank that raises them above the laity. Let there be no
ignoring on that question. For instance, with us, if a minister is
charged with any inconsistency or immorality he is arraigned before
his lay brethren as well as ministers. In the Methodist Church
of Canada the minister claims to be tried by his peers, or ministers
alone. He held that in the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ we
have no peers or upper class. (Hear, hear.) But a minister may
ask, " why should not I be tried by my brethren ? They understand
my position as my lay brethren cannot." No doubt there is a
perfectly satisfactory answer to this. Our ecclesiastical pretext from
the beginning has been under ministerial power. And now there is
this question to be looked in the face. In Primitive Methodism we
say that when a man enters the ministry he occupies no higher rank
than before he enters it. The spirit of the Methodist Church of
Canada says, " Laymen, hands off," ministers station ministers ;
ministers try ministers. Then the annual Conference will be
composed exclusively of ministers, and the general conference
will not pass any legislation interfering with the constitution of these
conferences without their consent. He had been told the general
conference had no power to make laws for the body until they
obtain the sanction of the annual conferences. (Hear, hear.) The
58
question will be for us to consider. Personally, he was perfectly
satisfied with our present form of polity. Improvement would not
be easy, it may be possible. He and others desired no change, but
some did. Some where asking, " have we not too much of the
laity ? The proportion is too large in conference." These brethren
are in earnest. I think the layman's influence in our courts is
good. But these brethren think we have taken it for granted, and
ask, " Is it not possible that an intelligent consideration of the
matter may lead us to a different conclusion ?" If he was stationed
on a mission and had $ioo deficiency after paying expenses and
then had to help pay the expenses of some lay brother to go to
conference and oppose him in his views, he confessed he would
think it rather hard. (Hear, hear). He thought a minister was
equal to a layman generally. (Laughter.) This question should
not be used ungenerously to reflect upon other brethren. Referring
te the ministerial pledge, he had tried for years to realize and fulfil
its obligations, and he was bound to say that the brethren who
differed from him on this union question had done so too. (Hear,
hear.) But surely, the pledge was not to be so interpreted as to
bind our ministers not to think, and not to consult together respect-
ing the remarkable movements which in our times were stiring the
the religious world around us (Hear, hear.) If some of our
brethren think they see a manifestation of the Will of Gad, in th»3
anxiety manifested by hundreds and thousands of Godly ministers
and private christians to draw nearer together — to become organi-
cally one. If these brethren after years of thought and prayer had
deep convictions on this subject and their ventured respectfully to
express them, are they violating their pledge? He thought not.
(Applause.) Let us be just. (Hear, hear.) We must guard
our manliness. (Hear, hear.) He never found Primitive
Methodism to demand the surrender of his manliness — it
would not do it. He, for one, rejoiced in the growing friendliness
between the churches. He thanked God the old bitterness had
passed away. Though he could not, did not go for this union, his
sentiments were well known, yet he appealed to the Conference,
" who would bring back the old days of strife ; who would revive,
and especially, who would like to stir up, in this new country, those
happily buried antipathies which were now almost dead even in
Europe?" (Applause.) We must be careful how we treat this
movement. It will require prayer and thought, and above all
charity. He was not prepared to sacrifice any of the principles for
which we had contended as a people. He was not prepared to vote
that our historial position had been wrong. (Hear, hear.) He held
firmly by the wisdom manifested by those who laid the foundations
of the connection, but he was not prepared to suspect and brand
every man who ventured to discuss these principles. (Applause.)
59
Let us hear. Let us not be impatient of controversy. Let us not
call every man a traitor who asks us for a reason. (Hear, hear.) We
have been told that we are paid agents. Well, thctt was true. There
was a time when he travelled for $6, a week and he was married too.
Bjt this question of paid agents should not be brought up at all.
He felt himself more than a paid agent. He was an intelligent being,
responsible for his actions to the Lord Jesus Christ. He put pay
down where it ought to be, and he put his position as a responsible
agent above every consideration of that kind. He believed in being
out-spoken. It was generally evil which did not wish to be brought
to light. The Romish Church in the i6th century said, " Let us
alone !" The Established Church says, " Let us alone." There
has never been an abuse that has not cried out " Let us alone 1"
He did not fear this agitation. He believed the result would be to
widen our views and sympathies. He hoped he would be distinctly
reported to express his sense of thankfulness to the members of the
Methodist bodies for the fraternal feelings they have manifested
towards us, even though he could not see his way to prove them.
Bro. JoLLiFFE said, it seemed to have been forgotten that the
union men did not come here to pull down the Primitive Methodist
Connexion. We ought to get rid of that idea as soon as possible.
He very much regretted this seemingly party feeling among Primitive
Methodises. If we Lad more of the spirit of our Master, ^nd wished
to give liberty to our brethren, it would be better for us. He had
always understood that, as in science, size was measure of power,
other things being equal. Bro. Wood tells us that great churches
are incapable of accomplishing as much as small ones, or in other
words, that strong bodies are incapable of accomplishing what weaker
bodies could accomplish. If that was so, it was something strange
to him. There is this in connection with one aspect of the ques-
tion. Some years ago there was a great deal of talk about
union,and certain brethren in onr church said to other bodies, " If
you will lay down the basis, we are prepared to accept it." He
thought a great deal had been said by the larger body, and now,
is it a fact that we are to ignore all that they have done?
They will say to us, " What did you really mean when you talked
of union ? Did you want union, or were you talking for talking's
sake, not meaning what you said ?" It is true that while we love our
Church, the Glory of God should be above all denominationalism.
Another statement has been thrown out, that as a church
becomes strong it becomes tyrannical. Then in the same
argument, if, as a nation becomes strong it must grow tyrannical.
He referred to England as a contradiction of this theory. We all
understand the most powerful nation on the earth to-day with the
most powerful army and navy, but instead of seeking to involve her-
self with other nations, she has rather endeavored to maintain peace.
90
We are not met to pull down the Primitive Methodist denomination,
but to find out the evils and apply the remedy. He thought too
much had been said of the evils and not enough of the remedy. As
we have seen the evils, let us find the remedy. If they were to lose
anything of their Christian independence and manliness by union, he
would be the last man to vote for it. He beUeved the day was coming
when the prayer of the Savionr would be answered " That they may
be all one."
Bro. Crompton felt a great deal because there was a special
sensitiveness in the reference to anything being said that had an
allusion to other Christian bodies. On a subject like this he did
not see how they could refrain from referring to the peculiarities of
other bodies.
The Chairman thought the subject included anything of that
nature.
Bro. Crompton continued — There was an aspect of this subject
as Bro. Guttery said, that we must feel ourselves in duty bound to
face. Bro. Guttrery had taken views and words out of the speakers
head and mouth. (Laughter). He had said substantially what the
speaker intended to.
Bro. Crompton took the chair, when Bro. Robt. Walker said that
pastoral supremacy was a feature of a certain form of Methodism in
this country. At least the pastorate — or ministers — constitute and
form a corporate body within a body. They have a corporate body
within the greater body of the church. They knew and others knew
that on a certain occasion they were substantially told that the
appointment of young men who had been selected by the quarterly
meetings for the ministry was in the hands of the ministers ; that both
the young ministers appointed upon stations and the trying of his
character were all in there hands. He wanted to know what that
was but pastoral supremacy ? The minister is by virtue of his office
the Chairman of all official meetings that are held ; he has the power
of nominating the stewards, and various official lay persons. With
regard to the quarter-day, we know that there are certain peculiari-
ties touching the ministerial power in the quarterly meetings of a
certain Methodist body that are special with regard to influence
going from the minister who occupies the chair at their quarterly
meeting. He could not say what amount of truth there was in the
statement that there is far more lay power in another Methodist
body than in the Primitive Methodist Connexion. However, that
was a great point and a very important point too. He knew a min-
ister — and he believed he was a good man, but believed it was on
account of his training — who asked a brother if he sympathized with
the union movement. The other brother answered he did, where-
upon the first tore up the ticket before his eyes. He could point out
other instances of unseemly conduct, but he did not wish to. He
61
was in a certain part of the world not long ago, and a society in a
certain street of a city desired to alter a week-night meeting they
held. However, the minister put his foot of power on the move-
ment, and said they should not do it. It was brought up at a quar-
terly meeting, and laymen of influence and liberality, and long stand-
ing, and great usefulness, told the minister he ought not to take that
course. He said he had the power. The laymen said he had better
not use that power here. This was a specimen of how this power,
in the hands of ministers could be used. Of course there were many
brethren who would not use that power ; but if it was put in the
hands of those who are of a certain temperament and turn of mind,
and have the faculty of self-esteem pretty largely developed, it would
be dangerous. (Hear, hear.) He referred to the origin of Primitive
Methodism, which was founded by those zealous, earnest men, who
went forth seeking the glory of the Master in the counties of Staf-
fordshire, in England. There was a command put upon them to
prevent them carrying out their views. Their mode of operation was
not approved of. Then, the power of excision was put into certain
hands. Primitive Methodism sprang into existence on this account.
After all, had it not been for Primitive Methodists, and also for
other Methodists, and for collateral and kindred influences, along
with the progressive sentiments of the times, a certain form of
Methodism would have been in a practical sense illiberal and tram-
elled. We rejoice at this change in sentiment ; because of this fra-
ternal co-operation, of this infusion of the lay element. Yet the
Conferences have the working of the affairs and machinery of the
church. The constitution of the Annual Conference cannot be
altered without a three-fourth vote, but there is a two-third vote in
the Legislative Conference before the rights of the Annual Confer-
ence can be altered. He was very thankful to recognize a softening
in the conduct of brethren of different names and a disposition to
more Christian feeling, and a tendency to " coming together."
Bro. Markham said he was not acquainted with any case like that
referred to by Bro. Crompton, where a minister refused to put a mo-
tion, because he did not like the tenor of it, but he had known a
similar case in our own connexion, and he very much questioned
whether Bro. Crompton was correct in saying that the Methodist
minister has power to cut off members without the permission of the
Quarterly Meeting. He thought the charge upon the Wesleyan Con-
ference was as unrighteous and unchristian, as having charged home
on Primitive Methodism the act of any one brother. A brother who
is high in self-esteem, be he a Primitive Methodist or Wesleyan, will
be just the same. It was not because he (the speaker) was a Primi-
tive Methodist that he was a good man, or because a man is a Wes-
leyan Methodist that he is a bad man. He thought the brethren
should not charge upon a whole body the failures or the wrong do-
ings of any one man.
Bro. GuTTERY said, that as it had been stated that ministers in the
Methodist Church have power to expel members, it should be under-
stood that a member has a full and fair trial. He read an extract
from the regulations of the Conference of the Methodist Church of
Canada, p. 203, to that effect. He held that the extract puts the
power of explanation into the hands of church members.
Bro. Crompton said, he must have committed himself if he meant
to convey the idea that that custom was practised now, or that it was
embodied in the constitution.
Bro. Boyle said, tb-^.t Bro. Wood — whom he highly esteemed for
his works' sake — had given the Conference to understand that he
had overlooked the Holy Ghost, and omitted many distinctive fea-
tures of Methodism. The last remark he made was that the distinc-
tive feature of Methodism was holy consecrated zeal. How any man
could be holy and consecrated and not possess the power of the
Holy Ghost he could not see. He remembered a story about a little
boy who was sent to school, and his mother, finding he did not
learn, went to the teacher to learn the cause of his not learning like
other boys. " Well, to tell you the truth," said the teacher, " he
wants capacity." He thought the man wanted religious capacity not
to have seen that he carried the gift of the Holy Ghost right through
the whole affair. Bro. Wood had told us to-day that the Methodist
Church of Canada and the Church of Rome were very much alike.
As the Primitive Methodists were very much like the Methodist
Church of Canada, were he convinced that Bro. Wood's remarks
were correct he would leave the connexion to-day. (A voice — " So
would I.") He could not see where the analogy held good. The
brother did not understand it himself or he would not have made
the assertion. He hoped that statement of Bro. Wood's would not
go to the public. (A voice — " Let it go.") He would not, for the
brother's sake, have it thought that n:\inisters view things in that
light.
Bro. Wood — I must be heard again. . , < ' . - .
The Chairman — Very well.
Bro. Boyle continued — with regard to the union, he had been a
union man ever since the question was raised. He had done as
little in agitating it as any one else — he had only written three letters.
There was a brother in his circuit whose sentiments he did not yet
know on the subject. He thought there was a sense in which the
subject ought not to be injudiciously agitated. (Hear, hear). He
was pleased with Bro. Gutter/s remarks, and also with what Bro.
Crompton said ; but admitting the ministerial power to be in the
hands of the ministry we are not in danger of that authority being
meted to us, and if we are made a part of the Methodist Church of
Canada we would have to prevent them from using that power.
Bro. Wood thought he had been misunderstood in his former re-
63
marks. He only referred to one particular, and not to any person.
It was ministerial power, official power, ecclesiastical power he had
reference to. The remarks drift out wide into other questions. He
had labored in this country for twenty years by the side of Wesleyan
Methodist ministers, and he had always been on the best of terms
with them, and he made no reflection on the men or the character of
the body. He merely referred to ecclesiastical power, which was re-
ferred to distinctly by Bro. Crompton, and his conviction was, that,
were it not for the restraining influences around the late Wesleyan
Methodist Church, it would not have been to-day what it is, for zeal,
and piety, and usefulness.
The Chairman (Bro. Walker) wanted to make a few remarks and
put himself right with the public and other denominations. It had
been charged *on him on various occasions that at the Methodist
Union Committee meeting he favored then a certain course, and
that afterwards his course was not consistent with it ; that he took
one course with the Union Committee and another course with their
own. He wished to state distinctly that on the Union Committees
what he asked for was : ist — equal lay representation in all the
courts of the church ; and 2nd — every court of the church should
have the privilege 'of appointing its own chairman. When those
were conceded he might be fairly asked to chime in. That was his
position at the time those committees met. He had not varied from
that. He had never objected to union on those terms. But he by
no means now would stand on that ground. That was the position
he took at that time. He would just make a remark with regard to
Bro. Wood, who had been criticized. He might be criticized on the
same ground, because, previous to the General Conference, when
laymen were not admitted to the General Conference, he had more
than once remarked to Wesleyan brethern that he only knew of two
bodies who entirely excluded laymen, and they were the Roman
Catholics and the Wesleyan Methodists. He did not know of any
two others that w^ere so situated in the higher courts of the ministry.
Since the admission of laymen to the General Conference the matter
has been changed.
Bro. GuTTERY wished to correct an extract in the Mail from his
speech on union. It had been incorrectly reported. He should
have been made to say, " If we went on as distinctive bodies we
should have some distinctive stand with other bodies."
The next topic was then considered.
64
ARE WE JUSTIFIED IN CONTINUING OUR WORK IN
CANADA AS A SEPARATE DENOMINATION ?
Bro. Goodman opened, by remarking that this was the most
important question that had been considered, and should have our
impartial consideration and judgment. The question was no reflec-
tion upon them as a body, and need not bring a blanch to their
cheek. He thought our history in Canada was an honourable one.
In the first place, he thought we had a right to come to Canada.
There was an expressed wish from our people on these shores to
England that their ministers should come. Then we have had a
character ever since we have been in the country for diligence in
attending to our own work, and not trying to proselyte from other
bodies. (Hear, hear.) He thought we had tried to attend to the
main matter of bringing souls to Christ from the world. He thought
also our men have been faithful workers. If there have not been
men as faithful as they should be that has not been the fault of our
courts. Our men have also been blessed with success in winning
souls in enlarging the interests of our work, so that we have not been
behind any religious bodies in advocating what has been thought in
our age to be right, namely, temperance. (Hear, hear.) If he mis-
took not, we were the first to have temperance meetings in associa-
tion with our Conferences; and in all subjects for the public good
we have been outspoken. We have been liberal in our Church
polity. It may be that some measures adopted in the Wesleyan
body were first introduced in our body. We have been enterprising
in church building — never more so than we are to-day. A gentleman
from the United States lately said that the Carlton Street Church
contained the best Sunday School-room on this continent. (Hear,
hear.) Looking back on our past history, we have no reason to be
ashamed of it. Then it may be asked, why this meeting, and,
especially, why this question ? Are we justified in continuing as a
separate denomination ? We have an answer, and it is this. Great
changes have taken place within the last few years within the Metho-
dist Churches of Canada. Great changes have taken place in our
own Church, and those who fail to recognise them are behind the
times. Reference has been made during these sittings to the past
when the great question that has brought us together used to be
spoken of, but there were only a few who cared to speak upon it. It
is not so to-day. He claimed to know all our ministerial biethren,
and he thought he knew this — if he was wrong, the discussion would
put him right — that at least one-half of our number earnestly desire
union with the Methodist Church of Canada, providing they can
have it on a liberal basis. He thought he knew — although it had
been stated to the contrary— that there was not one half of the
65
membership who, at the present time, would vote for union. These
are facts we must recognize if we look at the matter calmly, dispas-
sionately, mtelligently, and to act to-day as not to regret our action
i to-morrow. This was the way to view the matter with regard to the
ministers and membership of our Church. The attitude of other
Churches is changed toward us. There is a very great change in
the attitude of the VVesleyan Methodist Church of ten or fifteen
years ago, and that Church as it stands to-day. He did not need to
dwell on this. There has been so much said on this that he would
not say much on that point. He thought it a pity there should be a
strong party feeling in anything of this kind, because we get
exaggerated statements ; now the question to his mind was simply
this : The Methodist Church of Canada is not toward us what the
Wesleyan Methodist Church was five years ago. They have con-
ceded a great deal, and who can tell that they will grant still more ?
\ Their disposition, at any rate, has been kind. If we lose sight of
that fact, we may be biased to our own injury, and if we continue to
assert what is absolutely untrue, by-and-bye the public will discern
truth, and it will be to our disadvantage. We must take care to
know the truth and stand by it; and the truth is the Methodist
Church of Canada has met us a long long way. (Hear, hear.) One
of three courses is open to us. One of three courses we must take.
One is union — organic union, amalgamation with the large body that
we have been speaking and thinking about. Another is united
continuance as Primitive Methodists — dropping all agitation of
union, and going on with our work as a distinct denomination. The
third course is secession, splitting up, part drifting where they desire
to be, and the rest remaining. Union has its advantages. There
may be people who doubt it, but none can deny it. There is an
advantage in finance and in travelling. We cannot deny this.
Where there are two churches close together — and there are hundreds
of villages where such is the case — where one minister could preach
- to all the congregations in one building, and consequently there
would be two ministers crossing each other's path to preach to the
same people. It would be easier for the people there to pay one
than to pay two. There would be an advantage in education. He
believed young men leave us because we cannot give them the
education that other bodies can. If we were one, we would have
facilities for education that we cannot have as Primitive Methodists
for years to come. There would be increased laborers, which, in the
aggregate would be an advantage to the Church. One minister could
remain where he is, and the other could go on to a new field. There
are some advantages in united continuance. He did not believe
that united we should fail. Our record of the past did not teach men
that we are a failing, dying Church. He believed we had done as
much good in the country in proportion to our numbers as any other
G6 ^
Methodist Church. If we could agree to continue a unit we should
prosper as much as any, whether the youngest or the oldest. He
had faith in our doctrines and practices, faith in our men and hope
in God. But here is the question. Although this is the case, let us
see whether we can be as useful or more useful in union or out of it
The great question is where will we drift to? If we could be united
as a denomination we could be as useful as in any other way. But
we are not ; we are divided. Another thought : Our habits have
been formed in the Primitive Methodist Church. It would be to the
advantage of many a minister that the Church should continue.
These brethren who are advocating this measure are not all doing so
for their own personal interest. He knew that. By the time that
some of these brethren reach their first station their work will be
done. Apart from acceptability in the pulpit, it takes a man ten
years before he knows the people with whom he is associated.
When he (the speaker) went to Conference he went understanding
his brethren and feeling at home. It is a good thing to be at home.
But it would take these older brethren a long time to feel thus.
There is another matter that has not been touched, but will have to
be. There are certain rights which Bro. Crompton used to call
*' vested rights" years ago. Some of us are interested in a benevolent
society, or have been paying into " The Preacher's Friendly Society,"
and some of those whose work will soon be done are now largely
interested in this matter. It would be to their disadvantage in this
respect were the Church to enter the union. What we do here to-day
will largely influence the course the Church will take. We will
either go over to the union as a body — and if we go he hoped we
would go as a body — (hear, hear) — or else, that we will drop all
this matter, and become united as Primitive Methodists. If we
drop it, let us drop it for ten years or else some will secede, and
that is the worst thing that can happen. If the Conference says,
*' We'll have nothing to do with union," union men will have to stay,
or one half of them will go over to the larger Church, and a number
of our people would go with them ; but these would go at a
disadvantage, and we should stay at a disadvantage. The Methodist
Church of Canada would not accept as gladly the brethren who wish
to carry the Church over to union without the Church property.
They would not welcome them as warmly, and the brethren who
would go would not feel so much at home. He thought it would
also be as great a difficulty to those who remained behind. He had
heard brethren say, " However many go, England will support us,
and we can go on." Perhaps we ought to have faith, but he could
believe where he saw God's promise, and he did not see God's
promise in that. (Hear, hear.) We have been pensioners on Eng-
land's bounty. They have sent us many of their best men, and when
money has to be voted by their Conference in future they may say,
67
**Look, money expended in that direction before has not been used
properly," and some would oppose sending more money to Canada.
Then they would hear that twenty or thirty of our ministers were
going to secede. We are told here to-day that this will be the end
of it. How do we know that the help from England will be
continued ? He thought England would get tired of helping us. He
had one suggestion. In order to avoid any cause for secession or
disruption in the body, first there should be an appeal to our
membership. Ask them (hear, hear) whether they wish it. He had
stated his conviction that more than one-half of our ministers dtiire
union, and, as far as he knew, he thought that a litde less than one-
half of our members desire it. He thought here we should all agree.
He did not fear the result of placing the matter fairly before the peo-
ple. Some say the union men will agitate the thing on their circuits
and the members will vote as the ministers tell them. He did not
fear that — the people were intelligent. Let us approach with kindly
demeanor those who have approached us. They have not granted
all the Chairman asked them but perhaps they will. Then let us be
honest with our brethren — or rather our fathers — in England. Let
them know all about it. Let them understand that there are one-
haif of our ministers who desire union. If the people also desire it,
let it be known, and if an appeal to them prove it so, he saw nothing
absolutely wicked in union.
Bro. J. MiLNER asked how it was that Moody and Sankey had
succeeded so well in England. (Hear, hear.) Had not Mr. Moody
said publicly the very reason they had succeeded was that they had
brought the Churches and Christian men together ? (A voice —
** that's so,") Yes, that was so. He took up the circular yesterday
and in it he found that the Methodist Church of Canada had con-
ceeded everything that could be agreed to. It was a fact that it was
not possible for both denominations to be equally strong on the same
grounds, for when (as was the case as a rule) there were Presbyterians,
Episcopalians, and Methodists in the same district, the Methodist
element drifted together. The only way which the Primitive
Methodists could do was to draw from the Methodists and they from
them and large bodies had the power of gravitation in a greater degree
than smaller ones. He considered that he was in a land of free
speech, and that he had liberties as a subject of that Dominion which
he should not allow any man to take from him. He desired to say
that he had laboured as much for Primitive Methodism as any brother
in that room, though perhaps, he had not been equally successful,
and he did not know he had ever advocated union to the detriment
of his station. If any brother could say so let him get up and deny
this. (Loud laughter). He denied that the agitation of union had
injured his station at all. He had preached in various churches
connected with the Methodist body in the country, and he believed.
68
they, as Pimiitive Methodists, did not go as low down and reach as
many of the working classes, or go as high up in the scale of society,
as the Methodists did. If they were reaching the working classes
more successfully than the Methodist Churches could, then he would
say " Go on," but he thought the facts with regard to the city of Lon-
don or Toronto proved that the Methodist Church could reach the
lower classes as successfully, or even more so, than they could. For
what reason then were they spending their money ? He considered
that instead of giving so much denominationally they should give
some of their contributions to their Tract Societies, their poorhouses,
and other associations, rather than spend all in denominational help.
He had seen many a widow and poor starving cripple who would
have been better for a Uttle help, but owing to there bemg such a
clamour tor the minister's salary there was scarcely any opportunity
of doing anything.
Bro. W. Herridge, speaking on the friendly societies' question,
said he thought that supposing all of them were to unite with the
Methodist Church the terms would probably really be such as to
place every minister in better circumstances than they were now in.
(Cheers.) He made this statement because he though the matter
very clear. He found from the Discipline that when the union was
consummated the average amount of money in the Wesleyan Metho-
dist Superannuated Fund was $56. The New Connexion had wisely
in the past had a fund of their own, and hence the difficulty in
sparating from England had not been so great as it would in the case
of their own body. Tho average amount the New Connection
members possessed was $67, so that they had something more than
the Wesleyan Methodists. Supposing they were going to unite, he
thought it would not be at all difficult for tliem to raise the average,
amount to $67 in order to amalgamate with that fund. (Hear
hear.^ If they could separate from England on good terms the pro-
bability was that the English Preachers' Friendly Society would be
disposed to grant more favourable terms to them than would be
granted to a brother if he were separating at the present time. The
percentage granted to a brother who separated had recently been re-
duced from seventy-five to fifty per cent ; but he believed that the
English Conference would grant them considerably more liberal
terms if such a separation took place. The concessions made by
Methodist Church in Canada towards union had been referred to by
Brother Goodman. He considered this was simply a step demanded
by the example of Wesleyan Churches the world over, and a con-
cession to the demands of the Methodist people of this country.
Brethren would understand that when this matter was committed to
the quarterly meetings it was agreed that they should vote in favour
or otherwise, of lay representation, for the purpose of securing union
— consequently the course which had been adopted was simply
69
Yielding (on the part of the Methodists) to the demands of their own
deople. Everybody knew that among the Methodists, world over,
there was a move, and a very rapid one, towards lay representation in
every church court, for they would bear in mind that many of the
denominations had no annual conference independent of general con-
ferences. In France the affiliated conference affiliated with the
Methodist Church, and they had already got lay representation.
There was also a movement on foot in Ireland at the present time
to unite the Primitive Methodists — which he believed, became a
denomination in 1830, and included nearly half the Methodists in
Ireland — with the Wesleyan Methodists. From the commencement
of their body, the Primitive Methodists had had lay representation ;
and since the disestablishment of the Irish Church, the question had
been mooted whether these bodies could not be united. They
might rest assured that as the Wesleyan Methodists in Ireland had
already taken steps for lay representation when the union in that
country took place, it would be effected on chis ground. There were
five distinct bodies of Methodists in England. There had been six
separations, and those who had separated had immediately adopted
lay representation. They knew that on that continent the Pro-
testant Methodists divided on the subject of lay representation in
the year 1829, and carried away between 20,000 and 30,000 mem-
bers, about the year 1829 and other Churches had been formed on
the same basis as the Primitive Methodist. They were apt to lose
sight of the fact that in the past history of Canadian Methodism,
they had had divisions. He had only to refer to the year 1829 —
the time of Elder Ryan, one of the leaders of the Episcopal Metho-
dist Church — when a division took place under him. At that time
the denomination united with the New Connexion Methodists, and
they adopted lay representation. In the United States at the pre-
sent time there was a movement amongst the different bodies of
Weslyans in favour of lay representation. He wished to be allowed
to read an opinion in reference to this subject from Dr. Stephens,
the historian of Methodism. The opinion of such a veteran ought to
have some weight with them, inasmuch as ♦hey were liberal, and
certainly tended in the direction in which that meeting ought to go,
viz, that of a liberal basis which would not only unite their own
Church, but be very likely to gather in the Bible Christians. The
hisitorian characterizing the larger body of Methodists in a Republic
where the people had so much to do in framing the laws, said the
fact that it was composed practically of ministers, was a startling
anomaly. Referring to this. Dr. Stephens said : " And thus rid itself
of an ecclesiastical anomaly which, if it has not seriously interfered
with its prosperity, has at least been a disparagement to its character,
especially in the writings of its opponents. Lay representation is a
prospective and certain fact of American Methodism, and with it
will come a reunion of most, if not all, of its various sects in the
nation, this being the most important question b tween them and
the parent body. Some time ago he had read som» beautiful tracts
by Mr. Ryle, a member of the Church of England, and in order to
show them the tendency of the times in reference to this " startling
anomaly," proposed that the bishops and the clergy and the laity
should all meet together in the same room to deliberate on Church
matters on equal terms, and, referring to the absence of the laity,
spoke of it as " a rag and relic of Popery." He (the speaker) con-
sidered that the laity were as much concerned as the ministers in
this matter, and it was not often that God entrusted all the ability to
one class of men. In conclusion, the speaker remarked that he con-
sidered the ministers and the laity should be combined in all Church
courts. , . •
The assembly then adjourned for dinner.
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AFTERNOON SESSION.
On re-assembling at one o'clock the Rev. T. Crompton presided.
After devotional exerciser
Bro. E. MiDDLETON saiu it had been stated several times in the
course of the Conference that the question under discussion was
probably the most important which would come before the Confer-
ence. This matter opened up a very wide field. He wished to be
allowed in the first place to say that he was thoroughly in favor of
Christian union though Christian union in diversity. God had not
made them all alike ; the stars were not all the same size, and the
grass and ihe trees were not all the same shade of green. There was
unity in all God's works, but there was likewise diversity ; and as
there was union and still diversity in the world of matter, so there
was diversity in the world of mind. Several of the brethren in the
morning referred to the time when the Christian people of the Do-
minion should be all one. He was not looking to the future, but to
the present, when he said he rejoiced that they were all one. It
struck him very forcibly that they were all one in Christ. Were
they not all children of the same Father ? Did they not all say " Our
Father which art in heaven ? " Did they not recognize the same
** elder brother ? " Were they not fighting the same common foes,
and hastening to the same common home ? Was the Primitive
Methodist denomination a child of Providence ? Had the Almighty
anything to do with raising it up and bringing it into existence ? He
held that most certainly and most decidedly the hand of the Master
was seen in the formation of the Connexion. He should like to ask
whether the Master in giving them the commission " Go ye into
all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature," exempted
them from Canada — whether their friends at home were to under-
stand this command as " Go ye into all the world and preach the
Gospel to ever creature except Canadians?" It had been said again
that they did perfectly right in coming here. If this were true he sup-
posed they were needed here. And if their labours were needed in the
past, they were never more needed than they were to-day. (A voice,
very solemn, " I believe it ;" laughter). He was under the impres-
sion that there were never more unsaved souls in Canada than there
were to-day, and that their efforts were never more necessary. Let
them think for a moment of the reports which had been given in the
Journal during the present year. He did not think there was a
district from which they had not heard of revivals ; and yet they were
asked, if they were justified in extending their work ! From Toronto,.
Markham, and Sandford they heard what the Lord was doing for
them. Let them go to Brantford and see what was being done ; and
from Albion he heard that in one circuit upwards of one hundred
Tt
souls had been brought Ic God. He considered that if anything
could tell them, these things showed them that their work was needed
to day. In Hamilton district their labours had been blessed with
grtat success, the membership having been doubled. He might
also refer to their work in London. If he understood their brother
on the previous day he said that their work was all a rope of sand
in the west. If that was a fact, it and the statments of the Journal
did not very well agree. They heard a little while ago that there
were numerous applications for sittings in London, but that every
seat in the churches was set, and in consequence of this the applica-
tions could not be acceded to. One brother resigned " because
there was no room for Primitive Methodism," and upon another
brother being sent to take his place, and in less than six months an-
other station was formed. Then another brother went tc the station,
and he wrote to the papers saying that where there was no room for
Primitive Methodism the place ought to be made the head of a new
district. And yet they were asked if they were justified in extending
their work. He held that there was every reason why they should
prosecute their work, and depend upon it that if as much time had
been spent in earnest believing prayer, and in carrying this matter to
the Master, as in discussing it, they would have been in a better
position than they were that day. Whilst he had no objection to
every brother having his own opinion, and to brethren thinking k
would be better to join the larger Church, he had a most decided
objection to being told that because they ceased to be Primitive
Methodists he must cease to be one. Ke should like to live a
Primitive Methodist, and he coveted nothing higher nor grander than
this. All he had and all he was he owed, under God, to the church
with which he was connected. He believed he was just in the right
place in the Primitive Methodist Church ; and if he was not in the
right place they might blame his good Brother Crompton for the fact
of his being there. (Laughter). They looked at him, and wondered
how it was. Well, he would tell them. A great many years ago —
when quite a boy — he remembered reading an article from the pen
of Brother Crompton, which appeared in the Magazine, where he
told the readers that Methodism was exactly the thing for Canada,
and Primitive Methodism exactly the sort of Methodism the country
needed. He (the speaker) believed they were justified in expend-
ing their means to advance God's cause in connection with the de-
nomination. He expected to be a Primitive Methodist all his life,
and he should not like to go to sleep and on waking up in the morn-
ing find himself something else. (Laughter). He had preached
sometimes both in Wesleyan and Congregational Churches, and he
was of opinion that they were as nearly united as they needed to be.
Cats sometimes agree very well until they were tied together ; and
he did not think it would be well to tie the Primitive Methodists to
• 73
the other denomination too closely. He was talking to a friend the
other day who told him the New Connexion body was now married.
He asked his friend how many wives they wanted ; and informed
him that he thought they were too near akin, (laughter), and they
ought to let the present state of matters suffice, doing their own
work in their own way. He believed a nobler and grander success
than those they had ever achieved awaited them. The great question
to bring before them was not how they should unite with any other
body of Christians, but how they should unite themselves. They
were divided among themselves, and he thought that a union of
Primitive Methodists was about the best thing for that continent.
(Hear, hear).
Bro. HiGGiNBOTHAM thought itwasof very little importance whether
he was a Primitive Methodist or not, or a United Methodist, or a
Methodist of any other description, but it was of the utmost impor-
tance that he should be a child of God, and do his best to advance
the interests of the Redeemer's kingdom. This was the great work
to which they ought to look (cheers), and the question before them
was, were they justified in expending money and energy in prosecut-
ing their work as a distinct body. Their Chairman was a business
man, (the Chairman : I used to be), and he (the speaker) was a little
of a business man. He was very thankful that his good brother had
been so successful, and acquired such a competency that he was en-
abled to retire in peace and comfort (laughter) fo> the rest of his
days. He would say this — that he had worked with their excellent
Chairman for a number of years, and he never worked with more
harmony with any individual in the Christian Church. As business
men they should look at this question from a business point of view,
and excersise the same judgment, prudence, and forethought in the
management of God's work as business men did in the prosecution
of their lawful callings. In his own little town of Bowmanville they
had eight or nine different churches, three being of the Methodist
type. The Primitive Methodist one was the smallest of the three.
The United Methodist Church was a large attractive church of itself,
and included some of the most influential persons in the town. It had
a prestige and an influence upon the society in the place which the
Primitive Methodists did not possess, and this gave it a certain in-
fluence which they (the Primitive Methodists) could not expect
to possess. He did not care how able or successful a man might be
in other spheres, in the place he refered to all his endeavours
were, to a certain extent, circumscribed and unsuccessful, because he
laboured at great disadvantage, the other denominations having a
prestige and influence upon society which the Primitive Methodists
did not possess, nor was it ever likely they would possess under
similar circumstances. They had three men labouring at this place
doing the work of one man. This was not a solitary instance,
74
for there were a great many cases where energy and money
were being expended merely to support denom inationalism.
Their duty was to expend God's money in the best possible way.
It would be far better for them to husband the means at their
disposal, and labour to promote God's glory by economy, pmdence,
and proper judgment. They would remember that their good
Brother Middleton asked the question whether the hand of
Providence was in connection with the institution of the Primitive
Methodist denomination. He (the speaker) maintained that the
hand of Providence had been in connection with Primitive Metho-
dism from its inception. The denomination had done a separate
and distinct work — the work which, he believed, the Almighty
designed them to do. But he would ask the good Brother there when
had they done a work which other denominations had left undone ?
Were they to-day doing any kind of work which the other parts of the
Methodist family were not doing ? If they were, let them remain as ,
they were. But in this country they had none of those low masses
of society to which they were devoting their energies, whilst other
denominations were not doing so. In the old country things were
very different, for there the denomination dealt with the neglected
masses of society. Let them go and do God's work and God's
bidding with all their hearts, and remember that it was not by might
nor by power, but by the Lord's Spirit that success came, and if they
did this God would bless them abundantly, whether they laboured in
connection with the United Methodists or remained as they were.
Bro. Thomas Griffith said, he fHt as one Christian did, who
some time ago said, " I love the Church that keeps the Bible above
the Church : and he (the speaker) loved their Christianity, he loved
their Primitive Methodism, but he loved Christianity which kept
Christianity above any ism whatsoever. It had been stated by one
that when he is dissatisfied " he will take his hat and go." Now, the •
aged ministers who had spent thirty or forty years to enlarge and
build up their Church, thought, that union was desirable, if they could
get a proper basis. There was another taunt thrown out that morning.
One said that it was " kind of mean " that they who were the paid
servants of the Connexion should talk about union matters. (A
voice — " Is that the question, Mr. Chairman ?") He had a perfect
right to refer to this question, and motives should not be impunged
to brethren because they differed in sentiment, and he would scorn
and hold in derision such an idea, coming from whatever source it
might. He held they had a perfect right as individuals to consider
which was best for them as ministers and best for the Church of God.
It was their duty to God, to the Church, and to the world
to advance those interests, being guided in so doing, by the
direction and aid of their Heavenly Father. One had asked
whether there was a providence about the birth of their connexion.
75
Perhaps there was a providence about that man's birth as well
(laughter), but now he had got married. (Renewed laughter.) Was
there any providence about that? He was not born married, and
the gentlemen might consider there was just as much providence
about his marriage as his birth. * A voice — (" Question.") He didn't
question it at all. He had better faith in Mrs. Middleton than that
(Loud laughter.) Had they any warrant for saying that if they wanted
the Methodist forces of this land, the hand of Providence would be
taken away ! However, he wished to refer them to the fact, that
there were places in their work, where however earnestly and devotedly
they laboured for the Master, it was impossible for them to succeed,
but at the expense of, or inflcting injury upon other Churches in the
community. There was a man came to one of the Missionary
Committees the other day and said, " We are going to have a splendid
cause up here ; the Methodists have got at loggerheads, the Episco-
palians are just as bad, and there are about twenty or thirty coming
over to my Church." (Laughter.) He was in the hope that he was
going to build up Primitive Methodism, but there was not the material
in the community — except the man gathered it from the other Methodist
communities. In such cases they were not doing the Lord's work,
but tearing down the walls of Zion in order that they might build up
then- own. They would remember, that on the previous night, one
of the speakers stated that there were six or seven ministers to
contend against in some places, and he could not succeed equally
with these men, owing to certain circumstances in the great work of
advancing the Redeemer's kingdom. He was going to say that in
some cases they appeared to be labouring as it were against others,
and instead of going on in the great work of evangelizing the world
for Christ, they were contending over small and minor matters, and
sowing dissensions in their own bosoms, and in the Church of the
living God.
Bro. Pattison was not opposed to the speaker's observations, but
he was thinking he was away from the mark.
Bro. Griffith maintained that he was speaking of the develop-
ment of the work. When he was in Brantford, the denomination had
a Httle church which was stuck between two taverns. There was
scarcely a week in which he did not spend the half or most of every
day in visiting, and when he had got people to come to church, been
made the instrument of their conversion, and got prepared to join
the church, they would very often join the other churches, and
hundreds went by their door to the large church, where they could
hear the Gospel preached as well and better than he could preach it
— where they could have all the advantages of Methodism and Me-
thodist life as well as they could have them in connection with the
Primitive Methodists. They were thankful that in Toronto they had
added about loo members, but one of the brethren in the Confer-
»•
6
ence had said 270 had joined his church in the same period. He
was confident that friend had not worked any more faithfully than he
had, and why was it that he had a better opportunity ? It was that
he ministered to 400 or 500 while his friend preached to 1,000 or
1,200 people ; and was it not likely that with such a large congrega-
tion he could accomplish more good than the man who preached 10
twenty, thirty, fifty, or even 400 or 500 people. He thought these
matters were worthy of their consideration. Would they lose them-
selves if they should form a union ? Did the waters become lost
altogether or lose their power to bless the world when they flowed
into some large river? If four or five of their merchants were to
amalgamate, would they become non-productive because they had
constituted themselves into a very large and wealthy firm ? It seemed
to him that unity gave strength. In fact, their business men had
found this out, and had decided that it was advisable to say Mr. So
& So & Co. ; and he thought it would be just so in the Church of
Christ, if they had a united Methodism. He held that in all the
great essentials Methodism was one, though certainly there were
many matters which had been brought forward that day which were
worthy of their consideration. If the Methodism of Canada could
find an equitable basis, such as the various denominations could act
upon, then he thought Methodism would be more efficient, more
able to go forth and evangelize the world, and present an unbroken
front in prosecuting the interests of the Redeemer's kingdom. There
were many places which might be specified where they were working
across one another's track. Their excellent friend Bro. Boyle, when
working at Bowmanville, was in the same position. He was sure
any minister who went to preach to a people would do so better and
feel more encouraged to work if he found a fair congregation, than if
he had to go and hammer away to a few. He thought that, looking
upon these matters, and considering their general responsibility, if
they could see their way clear to a united Methodism for Canada, it
was their duty to carefully consider the question, as he believed it
would enable them to extend their borders to the far off lands be-
yond. This object, he thought, could be achieved if the Methodists
of Canada could see their way to become united, and be one not
only in sentiment and spirit but in outward form, in outward law, and
in all the operations of the Church of Christ. He hoped that in all
their discussions they would preserve the best of Christian feeling,
so that their proceedings might be directed to the divine glory of
the God of the race. With these wishes he would take his seat.
Bro. MiDDLETON rose and said he did not wish to make a speech,
but would confine himself to an explanation. He did not state as
Bro. Griffith had assumed, that those opposed to him (Bro. Griffith)
had prayed more earnestly than he had. What he said was ** if they
had given the matter as much earnest prayer." He did not consider
It
that in his remarks he cast any reflection upon any person. He
thought that Bro. Griffith would decidedly object to being anything
he did not desire.
The CHAIRMAN' said there was one thing that he should like Bro.
Griffith to refer to again. He considered that Bro. Griffith and all
the ministers were implicated in it. Bro. Griffith implicated a brother
who was building a new church, and hoping through disaffection
in the other churches to get a good many members — there-
fore he (Bro. Griffith) said they were pulling down to build up. He
did not think that was the characteristic of any minister, and he
considered that if any such observation went forth to the world it
would cast a reflection upon their ministers. He was sure the gentle-
men referred to had no wish to do this.
Bro. Griffith said he might state that the person to whom he
referred was not a minister in full standing with the denomination,
and he had to call him to task in commenting about the matter.
He (the speaker) corrected the thing the moment he heard of it,
but the fact was that the probablities in reference to the conduct of
the gentlemen referred to were that if he built up a church he would
have to depend upon such circumstances as those which had been
mentioned. He believed it to be the disposition of their churches
not to ask any person to join them who was connected with another
church.
Bro. Bee said the man to whom Bro. Griffith referred had not
been a minister in their body, and was not to-day with them at all.
A station was without a preacher, a man offered himself to them that
they knew nothing about ; the person was well recommended to
them by Dr. Punshon and others as having been a local preacher in
the Methodist denomination ; and acting upon such recommendations
they had engaged the man hoping he would be successful. He felt
grieved that Bro. Griffith should have referred to this, knowing the
man's standing. They had been thoroughly deceived in the man,
and how it came that Dr. Punshon had recommended him he did
not know.
Bro. Crompton thought it was a great pity to refer to matters of
an exceptional character, whether they had reference to individuals,
places or appointments. There were scores of places in the old
country where Primitive Methodist preachers went and held services,
and where the good work of God had obtained considerable success,
and in the very same places there were Wesleyan societies. He
might also say that there were scores of places in the old country
where, probably, one minister could suit both societies and the
neighbourhood, so far as holding services was concerned. He
would, however, admit that they were in very different circumstances
in this coun*:ry from what they were in the old country in that
respect. It had been said that they might unite if they could get a
78
liberal basis. Oh ! there was a vast deal included in that word //
Was it considered a liberal basis ? He should certainly be prepared
to make some concessions. (Loud laughter.) Now they did not
need to burst out in that way. (Renewed laughter,) He considered
such conduct was bad if they were guilty of it once, and they had
made a breach in their manners in that way several times. By such
interruptions they drove one off his track and did the speaker harm.
They deserved their heads " rapped " if they only got what they
deserved, but if he had to inflict the punishment he believed he
would not hurt them much. Again referring to the proposed basis
he said he should be prepared to make some concessions in this
respect — not to have two laymen for one minister. If it were
possible to re-make their constitution without breaking up the
Methodist connection, and if he could have a voice in the Home
Conference, he should give that voice on the side he had mentioned.
He should also be prepared as there was no great principle involved
in the matter, to say that the superintendent minij::er might be
ex officio the chairman of all the official boards, but there was no
great principle involved in it. He did not know that he should be
willing to say that the superintendent minister should have the
power of nominating all the lay officers within the range of his
Church. He should hardly be prepared to make the concession
that courts of the denomination should be made up of one class of
men, even if they were composed of men of equal shrewdness,
ability, business tact and forethought, as some men he might name,
— not even if they were all Robert Walkcs. No, nor did he think
that it was right to concede that the new Conferences should all be
made up even of men like Robert Crompton, James Edgar, Robert
Boyle, or Bro. Griffith. He considered there was scope in the old
land which they did not possess here. As he had said, however,
he could not resist the logic of facts, for he knew they were cramped,
and he felt himself straightened and his hands tied in certain locali-
ties. But the Wesleyan body in the days of its commencement was
straightened in many respects. He thought their people were not
prepared to go into this matter unless there was a more liberal basis,
or that they had, in fact, the lay element introduced into all their
Church courts. If they attempted to drag the people he thought
they would be unsuccessful. These were his ** forecastings " of thought,
his " prospective probabilities," in regard to the case. Did not they
think the denominations were in very critical circumstances, taking
for granted the desirability of union, and allowing their union
brethren the full scope of their views on the subject He certainly
considered they were in peculiar circumstances considering the fact
that there could not be an addition to the basis until three
years from next summer had passed. It was stated by Bro.
Goodman that morning that half of their ministers were union men,
but he (the speaker) knew several stations where they could not
find four union men. He wished to be allowed to say that he had
not the slightest objection to the advance of salaries which took
place last Conference, if they as a people could pay them, but would
not they be in a very anomalous position to go to England and ask
for several additional hundred pounds, for even the extra grant that
was made to them a few winters ago was to a very large extent
absorbed. Did they not consider that they were placed in a very
peculiar position if they were to continue as a distinct body in this
country ? That morning Bro. Goodman had very clearly and
distinctly referred to this matter, and, on the whole, he had
enjoyed the observations made by that gentleman. Let them now
look at their condition if they continued as a united Primitive
Methodist Church and did their work. No doubt they had missed
their way, and for some fifteen years he had thought this and
given his opinion on the matter. In regard to their missions he
considered that one important desideratum was to have some official
brother visiting their mission stations, because they had a great
number of inexperienced men to whom the stations were committed,
and those who should speak did not hke to say anything for fear of
offending the minister. Many mistakes which had been made
prominent in the discussions proved, to his mind, the necessity of
having such a visitor who might call the brethren together so that
they might look at the prospects of matters which surrounded them,
and to help the committee in working the stations to better effect.
To a great extent they wanted a reconstruction of their work.
There might be causes which at present appeared to be languishing
which could be worked to advantage, and though he said this
he knew he had a very strong objection to commencing a
cause, carrying it on for a while, and then giving it up. He
believed there was a place called Co!lingwood station — Napanee,
Caradoc station — and this place ought to be reconstructed, and not
money spent upon it to such an extent as had been the case in
the past. If they employed an experienced brother to go about
and discuss matters in a brotherly kind of way with the brethren
in such stations, he felt sure they might avoid many of the
mistakes which had been made in the past. He should like to say
something in reference to their monetary condition, for he saw a
great difficulty in this respect. Could they, as a denomination,
carry on their work as their circumstances were at present, there
was not an individual who would be readier than himself to say
"go on," but he thought his forecastings of thought were about
right, and he saw no possibility of continuing their work, for
they must remember that their highest allowances were ;£'45 a year
more than the highest allowances of the English ministers — $650.
Suppose a brother had four children then he was allowed another
80
$Too and rent, ** and all that." How could they possibly carry on
the stations which had about $ioo ordinary income? If they were
to proceed let them reconstruct and do their best, acting with as
much judiciousness and prudence as possible, looking for the Divine
direction. Let them pursue this course with all the zeal and energy
which they could throw into the good work. If Providence in the
future opened the way for the Primitive Methodist denomination to
cease existence as a sect, they would, of course, have to submit to
what appeared to be God's dispensations. (Cheers.)
Bro. McLean said the Wesleyan Church voted against the principle
of lay delegation, unless on the condition that they could have union
with it. The question of our Church as the child of Providence,
had come up. It appeared that Dr. Crompton would go to work if
he had the whole thing to do again, and he would cut a piece off
here, and another there, and have the patient put through such a
process, that at the end he would not even know it himself. Dr.
Crompton said if he had the power with this child of Providence, he
would at once cut off half the power of the laymen. (Laughter, and
Cheers.) A voice : — (It was born then.) If the child was born, then
it was born with a leg too many, and so the child was a malformation ;
it required the doctor to cut off" a limb, and Dr. Crompton said he
would have done it. [Dr. Crompton. — There was nothing perfect.]
That was just what he held, and this was one of the reasons why he
had ever identified himself with this matter of Methodist union.
Whilst he was quite in accord with a great deal that Dr. Crompton
had said as to the adaptability of their work, and the difference of
the work in English society, with its great ramifications of classes, still
he questioned whether our church had not accomplished all that
it ever could do in this Canada of ours. He called attention to the
willingness of the Methodist Church to concede anything, in order
that their Primitive brethren might be gathered in. What said the
Rev. Dr. Douglass ? Brethren would remember that when Dr.
Douglass gave notice of a motion to change the name of his denomi-
nation, he said they did it in deference to the other Methodist bodies,
and more especially to their Primitive Methodist friends. They,
(the Wesleyan Methodists.) were willing to give up the name, if they
could effect the union. Did any brother mean to tell him, that the
name WeLleyan, was not as dear to that body, as the name Primitive
is to us. There were many old men in the place, who, when Dr.
Douglass spoke, hung their heads and said, *' The glory is
departed." The first division which ever took place in the Methodist
family, took place on the Continent of America, and the first healing
of the breach has taken place he^e. As the first separation took place
in this country, so it was a grand thing, that the example of union
was being set to the old world. He did not think the Conference in the
old world would be so unwise as to ignore this movement, but he
81
believed it would have a due effect upon them,by and by. But the question
was, whether they were justified in expending their means and energies
in the prosecution of their denominational work. He had carefully,
garnered up what had been said there, and he had utterly failed to
find a brother who had justified, in the light of the facts which had
come out, the large expenditure of money which had been going on.
He found that nearly every speaker who had spoken on the question,
had deplored that in various points of their work there had been so
much money expended. The question of justification for the course
they were adopting, in the light of the facts with which they were
acquainted, came to them as a church. He knew they had often
heard the trite assertion, that Corporations had no souls. Was it a
fact that the church had no soul, or no conscience ? He did not
believe this, but he believed the Church had a conscience, and that
it was waking up to the fact that it was not an ism put into their
hands to further, but it was the salvation of men with which they had
to do. One brother said, " I was born in the church, I am
a child of the church, I have been raised by it." He (the speaker)
admired all that, and some of those who said these things were of
opinion that because they had been thus brought up they must shut
their eyes. He thanked God that Father Crompton did not do this,
but said he could not shut his eyes to the logic of facts. He wished
every brother to weigh the circumstances in which this stem logic
placed them. The question came to them, what were they go-
ing to do ? Were they going to continue thus ? He was satisfied
they were not, and he requested them to take this question to a
throne of grace. They talked about prayer, the Holy Spirit, and the
light of truth — let them take the question and lay it before God, and
when they had done this and were confident they were right, in the
name of God let them go on. But there was another point — were
they justified in this large expenditure of energy. He did not think
they were, or that they had a right to assume the responsibility
of sending men into localities where they knew they could not suc-
ceed, where there was no room for them. Allusion had been made
by one brother to Manitoba. They admitted that Manitoba was an
enormous stretch of territory, and that it would take a long time to
populate it. If they had the money he would say, " send the men."
Just let me call your attention to a certain fact. He remembered
the time when letters appeared in our Journal stating that numbers of
people in Manitoba were starving for Primitive Methodist bread.
They knew " the bread " had gone to these people, and how many
members had been gathered, including the minister and his wife?
Just seven. He maintained that it was a grand mistake to be carried
away with this kind of thing — it was a grievous thing to send a man
to such a place to toil, and for what ? He supposed it was quite
possible that in the years to come good might result from their labours
82
— he was not going to say the money was thrown away. He sup-
posed that the enthusiasm of the Conference prompted the desire to
extend our work, and this is the result ; but the question to consider
was, were they justified in sending their young men to places where
their energies and spirits were broken down ? Father Crompton said
he had frequently felt himself trammelled and hedged round. Did
they think the denomination was going to find men for this ? He
believed that if the cause of God — not Primitive Methodism — de-
manded it, there was as many men as ever ready to offer themselves
on the altar of the Church, (hear, hear), but it was one thing to be
willing to offer themselves for an ism. The next point which he
wished to call their attention to was the question of material. He
desired to say that he could not speak on this matter from an old
country Methodist Sictndpoint, for he had never been trained in it,
ai^d he did not know that he ever heard more than one — certainly
not more than two — Methodist ministers before he came to this coun-
try. But he knew something about Canada ; and he should like to
relate a circumstance which had left an impression upon him that had
never faded from his mind. Most of them very well remembered
their dear lamented friend Thomas Thompson. He happened to be
in the store belonging to that gentleman some sixteen years ago, and
he (the speaker) was very much struck with the opinions expressed
by brethren, who seemed to think agitation for union had only come
up a year or two ago. Whilst in Mr. Thompson's store there hap-
pened to be a gentleman who was discoursing . on Methodism
with Mr. Thompson. The gentleman to whom he referred gave ut-
terance to the following sentiment: — "There is not a bit of use,
there is not room for so many Methodist bodies in Canada." Bro-
ther Thompson brought out the words, " We are the child of Provi-
dence," and he said, " I will tell you, it is not a bit of use. I think
you have a special work in the old land, but you have not the material
to work on here. I am satisfied that God raised you up, as I am
satisfied that God raises up men and churches everywhere." He
(the stranger) drew a small line, which he made the centre,
and said, " All the light up to the sixteenth century was
limited and confined in a small focus ; and God in his own good
time raised up the early Reformers, and, as a result, the circle
widened. But the light shone out from this circle only so far, until
coming down almost to our own times, God raised up John Wesley,
and he carried the light of truth outside ot this circle, and the light
was more widely diftused ; but it only reached two or three classes.
Then God, in His own good time, raised up the good founder of
the Primitive Methodists, and enabled him to carry the light out to
the very outer circle, and He has wonderfully blessed your labours
in the old land; but, the gentleman said, "you have not got that
outer circle in this land. What is the distinctive feature between
yourselves and the other Methodist bodies ?" He (the speaker) was
not a Methodist at the time, but a casual listener to it r yet the
conversation had indelibly impressed itself on his mind. He was
•there to ask that day what was the distinctive material which they
as a denomination had to work upon ? This question had not been
answered by any one. They had to work upon the same material
as their brethren. The fact was that, whilst they had great reason
to thank God for what He had done through their instrumentality —
and he was not there to say God had not done great things fo»*
them — this he thoroughly believed. Yet God worked through
enlightened judgment, and He had never worked in any other way,
and He expected them to open their eyes, and see what He had
given them to do. Of course he knew there were brethren who were
prepared to say to him, " You have so pledged yourself to this
question." Certainly he had done so, but only in the light of honest
conviction, in the light of the logic of facts that were taking place
around him. What had he to gain by Methodist union? Did they
not think he could live as well in the affection and esteem of these
my brethren, in the Primitive Methodist Church as anywhere else ?
Yes ; and a great deal better. He had sat down to look at this
question from his own personal standpoint, and he did not consider
it was egotism in him to say that he could aspire to as good a position
in this denomination as he should ever be able to reach in a larger
body. There were thousands of men in a larger denomination with
far more ability, far higher social position, and far larger means, by
whom he should be overshadowed ; whereas with them, his' own
denomination, he could take a good enough position. Although he
had nothing to gain personally, he could not shut his eyes to the
fact, that the honour and glory of God were at stake in this matter.
Should they go on perpetuating mistakes because they happened to
have so started? The brethren who were in favour of the
denomination continuing to have a separate existence were, neverthe-
less, in favor of great changes being made. Another reason why he
considered they should not continue their operations as a separate
denomination was, that they had no right to be any longer paupers
upon England. He used a sharp word, but at the same time he
must remark that if the friends in England had not possessed the
Canadian Mission they would not have obtained so large revenues
as they had. He considered the obligation which the Conference
in England had discharged had been their duty — a duty which they
had cheerfully performed. He certainly admired the spirit in which
the friends in England had performed their part. But to think of us
sending men to the old world to say, " Get your feet on Canadian
soil, and you will find room and plenty of work," and still go with hat
in hand for assistance in this work on the ground that we could not
do it alone. Then there was the great fear which some of the brethren
84
had about the expose of the affairs of the denomination. One speaker
had said that if a gentleman was going to enter into partnership he
would not allow persons to come in and examine all his affairs. He
hoped they would at once put away this idea, for the large Church
with which they were talking of uniting knew their position exactly.
His only anxiety personally was that their own people might trulysee
the condition of the denomination. If this union were to be accom-
plished at all it would be by mutual concessions ; and he was free to
confess that if they could see their own way in the matter, he was
bitterly opposed to anything that would induce a split or schism in
their body. Let them be willing to wait and labour for the desired
consummation, and to go on until most of them were thoroughly
satisfied as to the desirability of the change. At the same tiiae do
not let them permit of the idea that because he dared to speak his
honest convictions he was disloyal. The day he had to give up his
manhood that day he ceased to be a member of the Church. Of
course the remark as to eating " Primitive Methodist bread" did not
and could not apply to him in the same manner as it might seemingly
to some. Think of it, shade of Hugh Bourne ! If that blessed man
were to come down and hear it said, we dare not give utterance to
our opinions without the brand of disloyalty. He could fancy him
saying to you, '* Shame on you, my children.'' They had all done
the best they could, and the best of men and the best of women
could not do any more. (Laughter.)
Bro. Bee should be very sorry for an impression to go abroad that
he conveyed a wrong idea in reference to the vote of the Wesleyan
Methodist Church in favour of lay representation. Instead of his
views being altered by those speakers he must say he was confirmed
in the statements he had made. They would remember that when
he spoke on the subject a statement had been made by a previous
speaker that the Wesleyan Methodist Church had made concessions
for the purpose of accomplishing union, and he said they had made
this concession in accordance with the strong current setting in
throughout the world in favour of lay representation. The words
did not exactly express the thought he had supposed they did. On
the second question expressing willingness to admit lay representation
as a means of promoting union, the number of quarterly meetings
voting was 132 (in favour) ; and there were 50 against. This was the
vote in favour of lay delegation on purpose to promote union , but the other
question which it seemed to him was intended to ask the Wesleyan
Methodist Church if they desired lay representation independently
of promoting union, the number of quarterly meetings voting
was 187. It was true there were a much larjer number of
nays than in the other case, but they would observe that a much
larger number voted m favour of lay delegation, independently of
the question of union. The grant of lay delegation was in con-
85
sequence of the demand for it. As to the statement of Bro. McLean,
he might say that he could go to Reach and passing on from that
point find just as good material to work on as there, and the advance-
ment made by these stations proved that there had been material,
and that the material had been laid hold of. He would some morn-
ing take Mr. McLean along Stanley St. instead of the more respectable
road they usually went, and see if they could not find some material that
could not be laid hold of Personally, he believed there was material
enough in Toronto if they wanted to go down low enough ; though
some of them said there was none of it. He wished there was no
such material. A brother had referred to Manitoba. He would
admit that was not a very encouraging position ; it must be granted
that their missionary had a very trying position in having only a hall
to preach in. He would refer the brother to whose speech he allud-
ed to Montreal, where in a little over four months twenty members
had been gathered into society, and where there was now a congre-
gation of about sixty in the evening, although it ,vas apparently a
very unlikely place to take hold of, the person in charge of it was
succeeding now ; at the end of four months there were $50 quarterly
income. Let them place this over the darker picture (hear hear).
He confessed that he was a little surprised at the remarks of his good
friend Bro. McLean in reference to this " child of providence." He
must admit his good brother made him feel almost very queer by the
flippant manner in which that divine subject was treated. He
confessed that he did not look for this from Bro. McLean. He
looked on the Christian religion as being a providential thing, in the
Reformation by Luther as being a providential thing, in the Reforma-
tion under Wesley as being indeed a divine thing — a providential
child. He looked upon Primitive Methodism as being equally a
child of providence with any of the reformations to which he had
referred ; and he considered that as such a child Bro. McLean should
not have spoken lightly of it, so as to bring it into contempt. Certainly
he did not think it was Bro. McLean's wish to do this, but still
the manner in which the subject was treated was calculated to make
some feel as if it was only a matter for contempt after all. Laymen
had been referred to in this matter, and it had been said by his
good friend Bro. Crompton that if it depended solely upon his own
vote whether it should be one or two laymen he should say their
founders did the right thing, and if he had a thousand votes he
would give them all for the matter being as it was. (Cheers).
There had been a reference made to congregations and to members.
One of the speakers had said that a thousand might have attention^
but he had only 400, and he had no chance to work ! He could
only wish they had many more congregations of 400. He said we
have stations that are succeeding. What was Chatham to-day.
It was likely to become a self-sustaining circuit — one of
6
86
their best mission stations, doing well in every respect. He
believed there was a great deal in the idea that if they
went to a place believing there was nothing to work on
and that they could do nothing, they would do nothing. He had
known cases where they had had stations standing still, and men had
said '* I cannot work — I have no chance," and other men had gone
believing they could work and succeeded, and they had done so.
The very place where his good Brother Hughen was, and had been
for four year, had had the same thing said about it, and what did he
say about it ? — that he was succeeding and would succeed, for he
believed in success, and worked for it, though he took a different
view of things than he (the speaker) did. He expected that gather-
ing would have thrown out many new ideas, but he confessed that
he did not think it had done so. It had been asked what would the
sainted Clowes and Bourne say to their dear children if they were
there ? He supposed the persons assembled there would say
"** Carrying on the work you began." It had been argued that these
men would find fauH with them ; let these men come and speak to
them and they would show them that they were not doing a wrong
work. It had been said they should use their talents right. Well
he thought if he had only one talent he had been using it as well as he
could, and had never yet felt convinced that he could use it in a
much better place. A great deal had been made out of the issues,
as if Primitive Methodism were the only issue in the world — as if in
gaining another society they would not be going to an ism. It
would be an ism if they joined the larger church. This, however,
consoled him that in giving their money to sustain their own ism
God's glory was in it and the salvation of souls was in it ; and this
prompted him to give what little he had to bestow. After listening
two days to this discussion he had not yet found the jumping off
place, and he was as much prepared to stand on his platform as when
he first came to the country • he could not help it. Some thought
he had got the shutters up and meant to have them taken down.
He stood on a certain platform, and there he should continue to
stand until his judgment was convinced. He did so because he couldnot
do otherwise — he must bow to the dictates of his judgment and
conscience, for the matter was one of conscience with him. He
questioned, whether it would be proper for them to go into union,
even if they had a proper basis ; he questioned this, and he
had done so for 19 years. He did not beUeve that Methodism would
be improved by their going into union. He believed that the Methodist
■Church was larger to day, and fuller of life than it ever would have
been, had Primitive Methodists never existed. He thought there were
Wesleyans in England to day, who would acknowledge that they
owed much to Primitive Methodism, and that had 100,000 members
been given to them, and the Primitive Methodist Church not existed
87
alongside of them, they would not have been as well as they are now,
owing to having a. potent influence by their side. He believed there
was cause for bome fear if they decided to go into union. He
admitted with others who had spoken before him, that there were
certain respects in which union might appear to be an advantage ; he
could not deny the fact, that the ministers might have shorter journeys
and better salaries. What did they read history for, if it
was not to learn the lessons it was capable of imparting ;
what was the lesson from the fact that there was but once
one Methodist Church — and he said this with no disrespect, for he
did not want to be thought to throw disrespect on any body of people,
he would rather that his right hand should be severed — but they could
not close their eyes to the facts, and it was generally admitted
that at the time to which he referred, Methodism was
sunken spiritually ; its power was waning to some extent.
The very fact that the Methodist body of that day set
themselves against the zealous evangelistic labours of men
like Clowes and Bourne was evidence sufficient. It was said to-
day that the Conference should not be charged with the responsibi-
lity of that ; he was sorry to say that the minutes of the Church told
another story. [A voice : Did Mr. Clowes ever appeal.] There
was no need of Mr. Clowes appealing. The superintendent who
severed those men from the connection — and this was a telling truth
and to his mind a deplorable fact and clear proof that there was a
sinking. Had God not done something — that something being the
raising up of a Primitive Methodist denomination — he did not know,
nor did any other man know, what would have been the result.
Others were raised up by God and did a work that was likely to
have remained undone, and might have been undone to-day but for
that. He referred to these things in order that he might bring out
another fact. Let them have one Methodist Church and let it be as
large and powerful as they pleased, there was a danger that they
might sink again into the same position, and lose spirituality and
moral power as they gained, as far as the increase of property was
concerned. That would be a very poor exchange if they should
ever make it as a people. He did not say that such a state of things
would arrive, but he supposed that those who were the strong "-^^ in
favour of union could easily see there was a danger of it comin^.
if this was so was it a wonder that they stood there to sa aat
they conscientiously opposed there being one Methodist Church,
and believed they had better remain as they were. On this ground
as a principle ground he opposed their going into union. Primitive
Methodism was dear to his heart ; he was not ashamed to say he
was born in it, and he did not care if this was thrown back ^o him
as something unwise to say. He felt it was a pleasure to him to
think this : but still the other was a primary consideration with him,
• 88
inasmuch as it affected Christianity as a whole, it affected the future
destiny of their race, and the accompHshment of the purposes of
high heaven, that which their union brethren had talked so much
about, the glory of God in the earth. Because he saw that there
was some danger of this suffering, he said " they ought, not to go for
Methodist union," and in saying this he was as conscientious and
, sincere as any man who had spoken that day in favour of it. (A
voice : Time.) When Bro. McLean was speaking he did not call
time ; and he thought when they had got into the discussion, and
.. one brother on one side had had as much time as he wanted, he
should not be called to time. (Cries of *' go on.") He opposed
union on the ground that they were not prepared for any such thing,
even if they were to grant the fact that Methodist union was right.
(A voice : Not at all.) They could not carry it ; he believed he knew
sufficient of their people to say this. He would grant this, that in
some of the weak stations there might be a disposition to vote in
favour of Methodist union, and a majority might be found in favour
of it ; but he maintained that if they went through the heart of their
work — the strength numerically and financially — there they would
find an overwhelming majority in opposition to union. Let them
go on to those circuits some of the speakers had already named, and
they would find that their people were not only opposed to union,
but they could not carry them with the union promoters, however
desirable union might be. He would not attempt to read letters
wliich he had in his possession, but he told them that if they pressed
the matter they would outrage men's feelings until they would say, " I
. won't go ;" indeed, they had done this. Not many days ago a man
came into his office and said, '' If this thing is going to continue I
cannot stand it very long, and I won't, but I shall never go. If you
• go for Methodist union I wiU never go into a united Methodist
Church." And that was the result of the agitation of this question
amongst them. Men who felt the financial responsibility of the
work were getting worried and discouraged by it, and they might
, depend upon it that even the agitation of this matter was doing
. serious harm. He wished to say a word in reference to their
English connection. Until the Conference in England gave them
; the frankest permission to do this, he did not see how they could in
; honour do it. Why? because they had entered into a solemn com-
pact with the English Conference that neither party should ever
, sever the connection without the consent of the other. Now, they
. had not that consent, and until they had they could no more
honorably withdraw than we as a count-y could withdraw from our
^ connection with the British Empire. Nelson was advised by his
brother officers not to gn into conflict, and he said " I cannot see as
you see," thank God for the Nelsons. The name of Nelson would
go down to the end of time ; for though he could not see as others
89
saw he came off victorious. He stood to-day on the same old deck
as in the past and could not see as some brethren saw, and on that
deck he meant to stand. He did not say that every plank was
sound, but if there was a plank with a bad spot in it let them try to
get it out and mend it as best they could. They had had their
weak spots pointed out — this station was weak and the other station
was weak, and if they were not doing well, and could not be made
to do well, and there was no prospect of success, well, let them
give them up ; still he thought they should be very careful about
this. There was such a thing as bounding from one extreme to
another. Their danger was in attempting any of these things
they might go too far and make a worse mistake than they had ever
made before, and they would have to be guarded. There was
another point, and though it was with pain he referred to it, honesty
obliged him to do it. It was that he was sorry to have to say that
some of the places which were called weak were not so because there
was no material to work upon, but it was a fact that some of them
were weak and would remain so because they had been mismanaged
by men whom they had employed by mistake. He did not point
to any person particularly, or to any individual personally, but he
did say that if they came to the conclusion that they ought to
cut off weak stations, as honest men they should come to the
decision that those men who had made them weak and did not
succeed but set their stations down everywhere they went, should be
told they were weak. (Hear, hear.) When they had adopted this
course they would improve the ship. If there was anything wrong
with the vessel let them break her up and make her sea-worthy ; and
he should use his influence for that, believing it to be for the glory
of God.
Bro. Briggs said, there had been a good deal said about their
being Primitive Methodists. He might say he was spiritually bom
in the Primitive Methodist Church ; and he owed a good deal to the
chairman for the help he gave him when a child in the Church.
As to his position to-day in the Church, and the world, he owed
everything he was to-day to Primitive Methodism, and the Lord
Jesus Christ. He took no credit at all to himself in that particular.
A great deal had been said on that and the previous day in reference
to their work, which was a fact. He had heard no person denying
these facts — not even Bro. Bee. No cne had got up and stated that
these facts in favor of union were not true. In reference to the dark
side of their Cnurch, not one of these facts had been contradicted.
Certainly they had been contradicted in general terms, but he knew
himself, though he had not travelled over their work in Canada, as
some of these bi ethren there had. But he knew when he had been
asked to preside at meetings, one Methodist Church would frequently
occupy all the persons in the town who could go to Church. He
90
knew places where there were three or four Methodist Churches,
and one would provide for every man, woman and child who
could go to Church. Then there was the expenditure of means
on missions, building new churches, paying debts on old churches
and parsonages. He believed they had in Canada to-day a church
property valued at $300,000, and if they put the interest on this sum
at seven per cent, at $21,000 which they had to pay, and then they
might put $29,000 expended on labour, thus showing about $50,000
a year, which they were spending. He did not think there was a
brother present, who could deny that three-fourths of this sum was
wasted. He had a fact in his possession which was not his own, but
was given him by a gentleman who was a member of the Methodist
Church of Canada, and who he believed contributed more to the
church than any other man, and who had taken more pains to
ascertain what was given than any other brother in it. This gentleman
had told him, that the money raised in Canada to-day by the
Methodist churches, was sufficient to pay, and pay well, for all the
ministerial labour required in this country, and to do the work of
God in a much more efficient way than it was done now, besides
leaving a surplus over this amount to keep 50 to 75 men for
foreign missions. Some people said that union would retard
their efforts. Let them take facts in reference to the union which
had thus far taken place. Mr. John Macdonald, with whom he was
intimately acquainted, told him that he went down to the eastern
provinces as an agent for the mission, and the people had not only
paid as much to the mission as they did before, but they had more
than doubled their missionary money this year. (Hear, hear.) So
that instead of union helping to retard the funds, it had more than
doubled it. He had given these as facts, and he did not think these
facts could be refuted. He thought it was a great shame, and the
matter came light home to him and another Brother who had
thought over this matter, — were they doing right in spending
this money in this way ? For instance : A man said the Lord
had blessed him, and he would lay by $1,000 or $1,500 to give
away. as the Lord should direct him. Was it right for him if he
gr.ve $2,000 a year for benevolent purposes, to give $1,500 of this
to a Church which he conscientiously believed was wasting the
motley ? and he believed that this was being done by many. Bro.
Crompton asked why they did not branch out at Carlton-strcet.
Now, there were members of places round who, when they wanted a
place, came to Toronto and begged money ; and there were brethren
giving and giving to support churches which had only seven or eight
members attending to hear a man preach. In conclusion, the
speaker remarked that he felt it was wrong to be giving money in this
way.
91
Bro. HuoHAN said Bi-o. Bee's argument had been that success was
extrernoly dangerous — that a large church was a dangerous church, for
it was liable to disunion, and not only so, but it was liable to grow
cold and indifferent. What a mistake Primitive Methodism tlien was
in England ! Bro. Bee said that a smaller denomination was a
power, and that it had a larger amount of faith in conneiition with it.
How about the Unitarians, (cheers,) and how about some of the Anni-
halationists, who were going about spreading pernicious doctrines. He
heard one brother say that the Almighty was out of the concern. —
(Bro. Crompton : I did not say that about Primitive Methodism.
Loud laughter.) It was about the missionary question which was
being discussed. The Almighty was said to be out of the concern, but
to-day it was much worse. That good brother had tried to make out
that their prospects were better and brigliter. Bro. Bee said it would
be better for ministers, because they would receive a better salary, and
be more comfortable. He was going to make some statements which
he knew to be facts. In the Dundas-street Wesleyan Methodist
Church, London, to-day, there were between 20 and 30 females origi-
nally Primitive Methodists, who left the Primitive Methodist Church
in London, rvn ac ount of the expenses in connection with it. Now
he was able to prove what he asserted. It was not the increase of
salary. The fact of the matter was there was a church debt to be pro-
vided for, and the interest on it. There were also other expenses in
connection with the church, and the minister's salary and the child-
ren's fund question were other matters. The people got sick and tired
of the business in many instances — some indeed, who professed as
great loyalty as any loyal brother here that day, and some of them
who were never going to forsake Primitive Methodism, but who had
been born and laboured in it for its good. These individuals had left
latterly, and on being asked why they left, and told by persons, " why
I thought you were a Primitive Methodist," they said, '* oh, we could
not bear the burden ; it was crushing us down. There was a constant
dun, dun, dun, and we could not live there at all." They might say
these people were better gone, but theie were others going in the same
way, for they were laying too much of a burden upon people. He
was going to state another fact. They had an overplus of married
men. His good Bro. Crompton predicted, years ago, that this would
be the case. Bro. Crompton said that at the rate they were going on
they would have more married men than they had stations for. Now
they had these married men, and they had not got stations for them.
They had made stations which were weak ; they had got up their sta-
tions to supply these men with homes, and the next Conference would
have to do something more, for they would have seven or eight addi-
tional married men in connection with the work. (A voice : We'U
stop them getting married.) Oh ! but they could not do that. (Loud
laughter.) With these seven or eight married men came additional
92
expense. Some of the brethren now began to cry out. The fact of
the matter was, he was not for splitting up the connexion, but he be-
lieved the time was come when they should prayerfully consider whe-
ther they would not do better with their men, and money, than
they were now doing, in sending men where other persons W3re
now labouring, and where they in some instances entered into those
men's labours, just as much as they had entered into theirs. He did
not know any brother who came to that Conference having been in-
jured by the union question, and he did not know any station that
had. There might be some. It had been said this constant agitation
of union was injuring them. He was one of those who would go
against agitation if they were to go about agitating instead of doing
their own work. He had not prayed or w^orked less since he had em-
braced union principles, or been less successful in winning souls to
Christ, and he could say this of many of his brethren whom he knew.
He believed that many of them had given themselves more than ever
to the Lord, believing that He, in his own good time, would bring it
about. They could
Learn to labor and to wait.
He did not advise being very anxious about this question or hurrying it
through. They had, however, certainly got to a crisis in their church
history, and now it was either sink or swim with them. They had
been talking about patching up the old ship — he was afraid they
would have a difficulty in getting the lumber !
Bro. LoMAS thought they could not burk the main question, but it
must be taken hold of and quietly and calmly handled — every one ad-
mitted this, and they might just as well take hold of it as not, be-
cause it would not die. His conviction was that lay delegation in all
the evangelical churches was a forgone conclusion on this continent.
The ver}^ principles for which they had contended were triumphing.
They all knew that there was a spirit of Canadian nationality
growing up, and this was permeating ecclesiastical as well as national
matters. A national spirit of this description entering into ecclesias-
tical things would of course tend to shake some of the old order of
things, and it was a great q' .>3.'on when they looked at this matter
on e\ery side, whether it ^oul'* be wise for them to resist it. His
idea was, that when that spirit of Canadian ecclesiastical feeling had
risen up it would be able to absorb everything that came in the way
of i\. He felt this to be the case, whatever our own pecidiar feelings
might have been some time ago — he was arguing a little against him-
self, because he saw a little differently. Some had argued a great
deal — and so had he — that it was not right for them to take their
home mission fund and make it the means of arguing against their
own cause. It was a well-known fact that many of the churches at
the time they united were deriving help froni the churches of the old
m
country. If those who held union views very strongly would look at
the matter properly they would see that it was going on very nicely,
it did not need to be hurried. What he meant by this was that ho had
heard brethren setting men very much one against another as though a
union man was excessively disloyal, and as though a man of a
different opinion was extremely so. They could argue this matter
without 'getting at loggerheads. Let them have a little patience with
one another, quietly look the matter over, and let union and non-union
men be sustained just as though the matter had not been agitated.
Under all circumstances the better way for them was quietly to let the
thing go on. He thought that he knew the young Canadian mind.
The older men — not only ministers, but laymen — went for unity, for
Methodism as it was, whilst the younger branch of the Canadian
mind went for union after all. Why not ha-^^e one church working in
perfect harmony, and pushing the whole thing 1 If the youthful
mind were going wrong let them direct them, but it was no use trying
to crush them. Let them not try to stop the movement, unless they
saw that it was absolutely against the providence of God, and he did
not think it was, they must remember that supposing union were to
be carried that day it was a well known fact that the friends at home
did not see things as they did in this country ; and it was also a well-
known fact that if union were decided upon, the friends in England
would send forth men to perpetuate Primitive Methodism as it was,
and that would create a feeling which all of them must deplore.
Rev, T. Guttery being called for, said he had no desire to address
the Conference again. The Conference persisting in its request that
he should address it before its close, Mr. Guttery reluctantly took the
floor. He said : It is reported, that Mr. Bright once said, " I have
known a speech change men's opinions, but never men's votes." If
they acted on that principle thoy would not find a satisfactory solu-
tion of the problem now before them. He would suggest that union
men should try calmly, without prejudice, to weigh the arguments of
the bretliren who were opposed to union, that they should do so
fairly, that they should not feel as if Bro. Bee was talking against
them and that what he said must be controverted. What Bro. Bee
said demanded careful thought, and so of the remarks of Bro. McLean.
He should like Bro. Bee to take up Bro. McLean's side of the question,
Bro. McLean to take up Lro. Bee's. (Bro. McLean : I will do it.
Laughter.) He would venture to say that if they would do this, if
they were not soon converted -hey would soon be in the agonies of
convictions ; and they would be passing over and changing sides. He
would suggest one or two things for his brethren to weigh. He asked
those who were known as union men to try and imagine what other
brethren felt when they said Primitive Methodism was the child of
providence. He had heard that matter laughed at, and to him it was
one of the most sacred and solemn thoughts of his religious life that
94
he had been connected with a Church that he thought was permanent-
ly the child of God's providence in the 19th century. He did not
mean that then organization was any more perfect than that of other
churches, or that her polity was more perfect than that of other
churches, he thought it as good as any other, (hear, hear,) but
there was a peculiarity about the origin of the .Connexion, as
well &s a glory about her history. How did she start 1 All knew how
some other connexions began, some in this way, — certain leading
officials in the Wesley an church desired changes in her laws or usages ;
there was a majority opposed to these changes — would not have
such changes ; and there arose a controversy, and the men on the two
sides could not agree, and there came a split, so that two bodies of
Methodists originated in an ecclesiastical contention, some of them went
out for one principle, some for another, but these bodies began thus,
and one of them took some thousands of Wesleyan Methodists away,
and they formed the nucleus of the bodies that now existed. How
differ 3nt it was with them. Mr. Bourne, and Mr. Clowes had no con-
tention with a single law of Wesleyan Methodism. History repeats
itself. If they went back 300 years they would find that God was
pouring out his Spirit on the World — that the old vessels could not
contain the new wine, and the old forms of Church government were
not found sufficient. He could go to-day to the Wesleyan M. Confer-
ence Eecords of 1807, he could find a minute which distinctly said that
it was the opinion of Conference that even allowing camp meetings to
be held in America, they were highly improper in England, and
likely to be productive of considerable mischief, and we disclaim all
connection with them. It was not for him to say that Conference
decided wrongly — if they did, he gave them credit if they acted in a
right spirit and in a right way. The question was not, whether the
Primitive Methodists originated in a split of say 50,000 members, or
even 20,000 1 He said they did not take one. The two founders of
the Primitive Methodist denomination- were expelled. He could
prove to them from the Wesleyan records in Tunstall that her found-
ers went on labouring, and the first churches raised by them were
handed over to the Wesleyans, and were Wesleyans to-day. It
rvas only when the Wesleyan ministers decided that they would have
nothing to do with the societies formed by the Primitive Methodist
founders — and that being so, they felt called upon to take care of
themselves. The first class of Primitive Methodists was about the
same number as the one founded in Oxford by John Wesley. None
of them were members of any other Church, but were converted out
of the world, and from that class arose the denomination which now
added to the Church 3,000 souls every year on an average for 60
years. He believed that to belong to such a Church implied a trust.
They had a voice in saying what should be the management of this
mighty spiritual force which God had called into existence. He
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wanted his union brethren to consider this matter, and to think what
eJBfect it must have upon their hearts who had long held it as one of
the dearest responsibilities of their lives. , He wanted them to try and
ascertain as far as they could why God called this spiritual force into
existence. His answer to this would be that there was a part of the
British population that other churches were generally overlooking ;
there was an empty place^ and God called this church into existence
to do the necessary work. He held it would be an error to try to put
ail end to Primitive Methodism as a distinct body in England.
He rejoiced to think that this grand responsibility was fully realized
by the honoured men who held connexional power in England.
But there were questions asked respecting this work in Canada.
Undoubtedly in many respects the circumstances were different from
those in England. Union brethren asked — was Primitive Methodism
called into existence at first to do the very same kind of work which
other churches were doing 1 to jostle them, to build a second church
where every body nearly felt that the second was not needed. (Hear,
hear.) Our founders felt called upon to use means which other
churches did not, and saw these means blessed by God. In Canada
what is our distinctive work — what are we trying to do, which others
are not doing just in the same way with greater success and mightier
results 1 Are not the probabilities that if we were united to-day Canada
would havejust as much Methodist agency, be even better supplied with
the gospel — there would undoubtedly be a great saving of money, a
higher standard of ministerial abil ity, and far less rivalry and div -
sions. This is how union brethren speak. I want us to think over
what they say. I want us to be able to answer it — not by imputations
of disloyalty ; but by reason and facts — are these things so "? (Applause.)
Perhaps it may be answered that the question of money was of little
moment when in comparison with the importance of soul-saving.
Souls were more to God than the richest offering of wealth. But still
there was a solemn responsibility on those who expended the
money subscribed for Chrislian work. It was one of the ques-
tions that must force itself on Christendom, is the money offered to
God wisely spent by those who are his stewards 1 Now, it is quit©
certain our people are much better oft* — infinitely better off than in
England. Our towns and cities, our villages, our poorest districts are
better supplied with schools and ^iiinisters and churches thai theirs at
home. Lastyeartwelvehundredpoundssterlingwassenttous in Canada.
We needed it to meet a crisis, I do not know how we could have got
through this year without it, looking at our position. But is it a right
position ? In London there are probably two millions of people, for
whom there is no church accommodation provided. London has
70 times the population of Toronto. In London we have about 20
mmisters, in Toronto we have 5. In Birmingham we have, I think,
three ministers, with a population of 300,000. In some places here
I 96
{ we hare two ministers, in the midst of a mere handful of people, and
j they are pressed on every side by ministers and churches of other
I communities. What can we say to these things 1
] Our missionary money was raised by very great self-denial in England.
i He had heard of a laborous wife denying herself of what was almost
(j her only luxury, a little sugar in her tea — she gave her pennies.
^ Such self-denial was being practised in different ways by thousands of
our noble people at home. Now he would put it to his brethren, did
it seem right for the well-to-do societies found in almost all our
Missions in Canada, to be receiving money in this way. (No. — No.)
Ought we not to support ourselves. (Yes, yes.) Some of our breth-
ren feel this on their conscience. It must be entertained. He was
J not in favour of any violent changes in this respect. Probably the
] wisest thing would be some gradual approach toward self-support, (hear,
hear,) we may reach this slowly — it may tax us a little heavier our-
selves — but this is the path of honor and of righteousnes.s. (Applause.)
!|j He had before called their attention to a point of difference between
the two churches. He must impress it upon the brethren who wished
union. Our people will never join any church which gives its minis
try a much higher rank than their brethren. And this is a question
I /or our people. Their home is not to be wrested from them. We
must not over-strain our official powers. Before this controversy is
(carried to any greater length, before officials say much more on this
subject, the people should be asked their minds. Perhaps we
are after all too much of an aristocracy ; we are governed by a select
few. They saw a church of 200 members, and a congregation of 500.
Some question about that church had to be decided. Who decided
it 1 the 500 *? no ; the 200 ? no, but about six or eight men went into
a vestry, and the rest went home. That was Primitive Methodism,
. and all Methodism and Presbyterianism too, and generally as was test-
:] ed, in their quarterly and leaders' meetings they had the fullest repre-
% sentation of their people that they got anywhere. He held that
instead of 100 men in a Conference presuming to decide a great ques-
tion like this, it ought to go to the people who should pray and talk over
the business with their preachers, and their officials ; and he had
faith in the people. If the people do not want union, then union
brethren must wait for it, or give it up. But, if it were right it would
come. If all their quarterly meetings wanted it, God forbid that they
should set themselves against the universal convictions of the church
committed to their care.
;; There was another point. The connexional authorities in England
had an absolute right to be consulted on this great question. (Hear,
hear.) He believed the brethren who advocated union, desired,
in the most loyal and respectful manner to consult the authorities
at home. For one he had the profoundest confidence in the
honoured men who stood at the helm in England. (Applause.) He
97
would oppose anything that seemed like disrespect to these men.
(Hear, hear.) Twice during his life he had been permitted to be
present in the Committee-Room at Sutton street, London. Though
merely allowed to be present as a visitor, he had been struck and im-
pressed by the clear insight, the sound judgment, the intelligent
bearinfT^, and cautious wirsdom of the venerable men who filled connex-
ional offices at home. He would feel the most perfect confidence in
submitting any question to these men. They realized their responsi-
bility before God, the uses to which they put the resources and
agencies of the connexion. (Hear, hear.] In sending this matter to
them, we may be quite sure it will be received and considered and
dealt with in a candid and intelligent and impartial manner. (Hear,
hear.) He thought, as yet, the brethren in England had never had
this movement properly placed before them. (Hear, hear.) There
were two sides to this question, they had been shown one. (Applause.)
Now he thought the time was near, when a deputation at once able
and impartial, a deputation with no end to serve of its own — apart
from the church's welfare, should be sent to England on this question.
And when these steps had been taken, we had done our duty to our
people, and to our brethren at home, let us trust in God. He, for
one, stood there, not to blame the brethren who stood up for union,
in their sincerity and consciences, but he asked both parties to weigh
the arguments advanced by their brethren who were of a different
opinion, and try to see with a single eye. (Loud applause.)
Bro. Goodman considered that they ought to fully know what the
safe basis was and what they ought to expect, by the time of their
next Conference. Mr. Guttery had said " Let our quarterly meetings
act," — he said " Let our members vote." His reason for saying so
was that he believed their quarterly meetings did not represent the
sentiments and the voice of the membership in every particular.
If they were to have anything at all let them have perfect freedom in
expressing their views and discussing this matter. Even if there were
ministers who would influence their members — and especially those
who wftre recently converted — to vote for union, there might be those
who conscientiously would influence those who were their recent converts
the other way ; but let then know honestly and candidly what the
majority of the membership thought. No party seeking truth need to
fear the light, or unduly hurry the matter. He would recommend
that the next Conference should calmly and dispassionately consider
this question, or possibly allow it to be discussed in the Journal.
The proceedings of the Conference were concluded by a hearty vote
of thanks being passed to the Chairman, on the motion of Bro.
Herridge, seconded by Mr. Crompton.