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Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la m6thode. 12 3 4 5 6 T^ JWR. llcCARTHY'S SPEECH AGAINST Gurran's Home Rule Resolutions in tbe House of Gommons. OTT-A."W"-A., .A-IPRIL, 1887. V \ '-^x.^^- \ ^^V^iuV' :.) HOME RULE RESOLUTIONS MOVED ON APRIL TWENTY-FIRS T IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, CANADA, BY J. J. CURRAN, M. P. FOR MONTREAL CENTRE. That the Parliament of Canada in the year 1882 adopted a humble Address to Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen expressing the hope that a just measure of Home Rule would be granted to the people of Ireland ; and That in the year 1886, by Resolution of the House of Commons, the sentiments of said Address to Her Most Gracious Majesty wore earnestly reiterated and the hope again expressed that a measure of Home Rule satisfactory to the people of Ireland would be passed by the Im- perial Parliament ; and That suoh measure of Home Rule has not been granted to the Irish people, but, on the contrary, there has been introduced into the Imperial House of Commons by Her Majesty's Government a Bill enacting the most stringent coercive measures for Ireland, by which the Irish people will be deprived of rights most dear to all British subjects. That this House has learned with pro- found regret of the introduction into the Imperial House of Commons of the Coercion Bill above mentioned, and protests against its adoption, as being subversive of the rights and liberties of Her Majesty's subjects in Ireland. That this House again expresses the hope that there may speedily be granted to Ireland such a measure of Home Rule as is enjoyed in the Dominion of Canada, which, whilst satisfying the national asperations of the people of Ireland for self-government, shall also be consistent with the integrity of the Empire asa whole. That the granting of Home Rule to Ireland will fittingly crown the already glorious reign of Her Most Gracious Majesty as a constitutional sovereign, will come with special appropriatness in this her jubilee year and, if possible, render Her Majesty more dear to the hearts of her already devoted and loyal subjects. That the present resolutions be for- warded to the Right Hon. the Marquis of Salisbury, Prime Minister, to the Right Hon. W. E. Gladstone, M. P., and Charles Stuart Pamell, M.P. The within speech against the passing oi the above re' by Mr. Dalton McCarthy, M.P. for North Simcoe, in the April 22nd. ^utions was delivered >use of Commons, ou i i' n Mr, MCCARTHY'S SPEECH AGAINST MR. CURRAN'S HOME RULE RESOLU- TIONS IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. i Mr. McCarthy. This discussion Tias taken so wide a range, it may be well, perhaps, to recall the attention of the House to the matter upon which we shall bye-and-bye, and before very long, I trust, have to vote. I desire, in the statement I am about to make, to be free as possible from making any impu- tation upon the motives of any hon. gen- tleman who has addressed the House. I desire to treat this matter in as calm and judicial a spirit as under tbo circum- stance it can be dealt with, and I ask that the house be recalled to the posi- tion in which we stand here, and the powers with which we are invested and and the rights we possess here as repre- sentatives of the Canadian people. We have been on other occasions invited to vote, and on one occasion we almost unanimously did vote, in favor of the general principle of the establishment of Home Rule for Ireland, and on a more recent occasion, though perhaps not with such unanimity, we also recorded and reaffirmed our former opinion in favor <.)f that general principle. But it has always been to me a matter of some doubt, and that doubt was not lessened by the rebuke with which our firat reso- lution was received, whether we had not stepped beyond our sphere, whether we had not gone beyond our right and function as a parliament or as an assembly to advise Her Majesty as to how this question between Great Brit- ain and Ireland should be dealt with. Now, we sit here as a parliament it is true — as I believe, the greatest parlia- ment under theBritish Empire, except the imperial parliament itself, and with lar- ger and wider powers, with that except- tion than any other legislative body under the Crown of England, But arter all we hold here but a dele- gated power. We have but the right which is conferred upon us under the charter enabling us as a Canadian people to govern ourselves, in the dis- tribution of the power between the local legislative assemblies and this Parliament of Canada; and it is merely within that power and as far as that power goes, that, as it appears to me, we are sent here by the people of Can- ada to express their opinions. For my part, I do not know and I do not feel that I have any right here to express the opinions of my constituents on this question of Home Rule — upon the r\ (juestion of how any particular measure should be decided or disposed of in the parliament of Great Britain and Ireland. 1 do not know that my constituents, in honoring me with the posi'ion which I hold in this House, gave me anj' man- date to express their opinions, to repre- sent them or to bind their views with my own upon this question. 1 do not deny that we have all g(>t the right of petition to the throne; that is a right belonging to every British subject. But it is one thing to meet in our public assemblies and exercise the right of petition, and it is quite another and a different thing to pretend, as repre- sentatives of the : «ple, to express opinions which ' ■■ ot merely the opinions of the im ■ > aal members who record their votes, but purport to be — and to have any value should be —a representation of the opinions of those who sent us here. Now I may be met. and properly met, by the answer that this opinion of mine is not in accord- ance with the votes which I have given on occasions, in support of the gen- eral principle of Home Rule. But we see where we are now being led. In 1882, 1 do not suppose there was any member of this house, I do not suppose that to-day there is any member of this House, no matter upon what side of the Chair he may sit — who does not feel a desire that the difficulties which have occurred, and which are still unfortu- nately existing in Ireland, should be done away with by means of some measure of legislation or other what- ever means may be found of accomplishing that object. I do not suppose, therefore, that, in accord- ing to the general principle of Home Rule our hearty concurrence,as a means to that end, we went very far astray. But where are we now being led ? One thing it was to express that general opinion; one thing it was to say that we believe, judging by the way in which we have found the measure of self- government which had been accorded to us had acted in this country, and that it would probably produce a like result in Ire land — that, I say, was one thing, but we are now proposing to deal with a specific and particular measure sub- mitted to the Britiiih Parliament and upon which that Parliament had the; responsibility of deciding. That, I take^ it, is the point of the resolution moved by my hon. friend from Montreal Centre ^^Mr. Curran.) It is nob merely to. reiterate our former opinion on Home Rule that this resolution is moved. The hon. gentleman has told us candidly — or rather, so 1 infer from his address — that the reason this matter was brought before this assembly was that the Coer- cion Bill, as it is called, had been int: j- duced by the Government of England and that large and important meetings had been held throughout this country petitioning — as their right was and is- to petition against that or any other matter which they thought affected their individual interest — petitioning against this measure. In that view the hon. gentleman thought proi)er to bring the; matter up in the house and ask us as a legislative body to express by this con- stitutional means our opinion upon this important question. If you eliminate from these resolutions theimportant para- graph relating to the question of the Co- ercion Bill, I do not suppose that the other part of them would have occupied to any great extent the attention of this House, as this matter has occupied it. To that, therefore, I desire to take ex- ception — not from any feeling of hostili- ty to the Irish race, of which I am proud to be a member; not from any desire to. prevent that race getting such a measure of freedom or government, such consti- tutional redress as they may be able to get in a proper way; 1 take this position from no such feeling, and I trust that no word of mine can possibly be used in support of the supposition that I enter- tain any such feeling. It is not for any such reason as that, that I take this view, but because 1 believe that we had better leave with the properly constafcuted Im- perial autherities the questions which belong to them, and we will find we have quite enough to du here in Canada with the management of our own affairs. We ai?e proud. Sir, to know that since 1840 we have had what is called re- sponaible government in this country. We havo won the right from the Britishi Crown to govern ourselves; according to ' I the well understood rules of constitu- tional government, and Tve have found ^8 a whole that wc have prospered in that way. But while that is so, are we not pretending to go a little too far ? Are we not pretending to do too much when not content with the liberty which we enjoy ourselves, we propose to dic- tate to the Imperial Parliament which has delegated to us these powers, what they should do under circumstances where they have j?reat responsibility and full knowledge, whereas we have neither the knowledge nor the responsibility ^hich belongs io that great body ? What j is this Coercion Bill, so called, and why has it been introduced ? I am not go- ing to argue to-night in favor of that measure, rvor am I going to argue against ■u. I humbly admit differing altogether 'rom hon. gentlemen on the opposite S'de, for whom their leader spoke, that n.y acquaintance with the subject is i lijt sufficient to enable me to di^'^un': it in that way on my own account ^nd form a t^ompetent opinion upon , it, much less to bind those whom I represent in this house. The hon. , gentleman opposite sneered at my two j hon. friends who expressed an opinion | >to that effect, and said their spet'ches j demonstrated their ignorance. Per.'iaps ! if he were candid he would have said — ' and I think I will point out before 1 am \ done that his knowledge on the subject is not quite so accurate as to enable him to cast a slur on hon. members on this side. I think hon. members of botu sides of the house, if they are honest., will say that the percentage of members of this house who are prepared to assert that they know enough of this question j to speak intelligently upon it, and to j .speak with the responsibility of mem- j bers of parliament, is very small indeed, \ though I do not suppose we are to be i blamed for that. We have enough, as | I have said before,to do in govemingour ' >ownland,and we caunotpretend to grasp .the whole world of politics and under- .stand the minutiae of the different ques- tions which, at one time or other, may .arise in the parliament of Great Britain. Now if the coercion bill, BO-<»Ued, is for ithe purpose of enabling the home .authorities, the govemmeot of the quv>en, to enforce the laws of the land, it is not, as the hon. leader of the opposition said, effecting any change in in the criminal law. It does, it is true, effect important changes in the pro- cedure of that law. But there is nothing in the act of parliament, of which I have a copy — and I think the hon. gentleman sjjoke as if he had only read the statement of the chief secretary on the subject — there is nothing which, so far as I understand the criminal law, in the slightest degree creates offences, though undoubtedly it creates changes in the procedure for the suppression of the crimes which, by the common law of England and by various statutes pass- ed from time to time have been created offences against which they are perhaps necessary, if the bonds of civilized so- ciety are not to be altogether unloosened. We know that there was a coercion bill in 1880 for a limited period of time, and another in 1881, again for a limited pe- riod of time. We know that the latter was caused by a terrible tragedy which occurred in Phcenix Park,which the hon. leader of the opposition has character- ized as a massacre; and certainly we can all s[>eak of it as the most diabolical murder of modem days. We are told that these Coercion bills have only add- ed to the difficulties instead of removing them; and we were told this afternoon by the hon. meniL. r for Quebec East (BIr. Laurier) that that will always be so — that the attempt to have the laws cf the land enforced must always be followed by meetings, by secret associa- tions, by fresh and greater breaches of the criminal code. Well, sir, that has not been found to be the result of these enforcements of the criminal law. I hold in ray hand a small history of the English parliament during the last five years, in which, speaking about coer- cion, the author tells us of this fact, which I commend tc the attention of this House : "The improvement was very limited, "it must be allowed; too slowlj?' it de- "veloped; but eventually brightened "ooniiiderably, and really anotner era "had dawned for Ireland; if we consider *'the decrease in the number of agrarian "outrages aloue. In 1881 there were ' '4,431. The year following the passage " of the Crimes Act saw 762 only, and "murders having decreased from twen- "ty-six in 1881 to none in 1884." That was the effect of the passage of the Crimes bill in 1881. And when the period came for that Crimes bill to be renewed we know the difficulties that were supposed to hav3 occurred in Mr, Gladstone's cabinet; and it was said by some that it was owing to these dissen- sions with regard to the renewal of that bill that that cabinet shortly afterwards fell. We know, too. as a matter of his- tory, that Lord SalisDury's first admin- istration refused to renew the crimes bill, and from that time to this the gov- ernment of England has endeavored to i'overn Ireland by the ordinary law of the land. What has been the result ? The result cannot be known to all; but when the Minister comes be- fore the House of Commons and makes the statement in that house which I am about to read, asks for powers in order to secure the respect for the law of the land, I do not knowvery well how we,sitting 4,000 miles away, have a right to criticise, much less to censure, that Government. Mr. W. H. Smith, in bringing this matter to the notice of the house of commons used this language, after quoting Mr. Glad- stone's own words used in 1881 : — ' 'Is that the state of Ireland ? Is one "in which the administrat:' n of justice "has failed, and in which ta con- "siderable extent the influence of terror "places in abeyance the discharge of "civil duties and the exercise of civil "rights. The powers we ask for are ne- "cessary to maintain social order. They "are necessary to maintain the very "existence of society upon the conditions "in force and recognized by every civi- • "lized community." When the responsible minister of the crown, who has information not open to us here, comes down to the house of commons and uses language like that, I do not know very well how even in the house of commons the powers they ask are to be denied to them. They went far- ther and said, so serious do we find the conditions of aflGairs in Ireland to day that we tell the house of commons that if they refuse to give us the powers »vhich wa as a government desire, after having for two years tried to govern the country by the ordinary laws of theland, we will surrender to others the respon- sibility of advising Her Majesty in the government of the country. The gov- emnment made that, statement, and fortified it by facts in their information some of which 1 have here and might mention, although I am not going to make anything like an exhaustive argu- ment on thift e^uestion. When I find the statement made by the chief secre- tary that out of over one thousand cases of crimes committed during the preceding year there had been only in the neighborhood of sixty con- victions — and the statement made by the hon. leader of the opposition estab- lishes it; when we know that the peo- ple in the difierent parts of the country have joined associations for the purpose of compelling the landlords to come down to their terms; when we know that sometimes growing out of those as- sociations, crimes are committed, and sometimes crimes are committed not growing out of them because the bonds of civilized society are relaxed; and when we know that the jurors who are to try those people belong to those various associations, I want to^ know how it is possible to expect th& criminal law to be enforced without special powers. Now, these are facts which induce the authorities charged with the responsibility of governing that country to say that they must have additional powers; and in the face of these facts we are asked here, in our ig- norance of the position of affiurs there, to practically vote against the principle of the bill which has received its second reading recently by a majority of over 100 in the house of commons of Eng- land. Are we, the people, to take such a position? Are we so negligent of law and order in this country? i. re we so- careful of liberty as it is calk d, as to entitle us to tell the people and parlia- ment of Great Britain and Ireland that the laws which the responsible advisers of the crown say are requisite for tho maintenance of society should not ba passed? Do you reinember the strike <^. <*,. on the Grand Trunk railway service which occurred, I think, in the year 1878. Do you remember, sir, the diffi- culty that occurred when Qrand Trunk servants refused to do the bid- ding of their masters and struck, havmg combined, ap it was their right to combine, for the pur- pose of advancing their own interest and getting better terms from their employers. But the hon. member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) who thinks it so wrong to make the Irish people obey the laws of the land, not merely created a new crime and altered the pro cedure,but brought down an act of parlia- ment and backed by the whole strength of the party then in power, includmg the hon. member of Quebec (Mr. Laur- ier), that a breach of civil concract under the circumstances detailed in this act, should be a crime. A new difficulty had arisen, the people of Canada found themselves strong enough to cope with * it, and the government of the day came down — I do not think it was the government, if my recollection serves me right, so much as the hon. member for West Durham — and proposed, not being competent enough for the emergency, not being Irish enough to underatand how to frame the bill, that it should be given to a commisbion to frame ; and the hon. membci- for West Dur- ham brought down the bill and carried it through. I find in that measure that breaches of contract with railway companies, under certain circum- stances which caused public inconveni- ence, were to be made criminal. But that is not the worst feature. Why, they were to be tried summarily— not by a court and jury. The great right of trial by jury was ignored by the hon. gentleman, and the trial was to take place before two magistrates who had power to send the accused to prison. That was the way we acted in circum- stances of that kind. I voted against that measure, and I believe those associ- ated on the opposition side of the house with me almost unanimously voted against it. We did not so voto on the ground that we had not the power to pass legislation of that kind, but we denied that there '.vas any occasion for so stringent amendment to the law. That was the coercion bill of that day, which remains from that day to this on our statutes. We may call it the coercion bill of the hon. member for West Dur- ham, for he is certainly entitled to the credit of it more than any other hon. member. Mb. Mills. Why do you not repeal it? Mr. McCarthy. There is another matter. Let i e investigate the bill which is being brought . in the British Parliament, whether necessary or un- necessary, it is not for me to offer an opinion. I am merely endeavoring to point out to this hcuise that we will be assuming very dangerous respi ability, if these resolutions are intende< to affect any purpose except the purpost ' i I do not propose to mention, if ire intended in the slightes ee to affect the passage of i\u ill in the English Parliament — in asking this parliament to send home resolutions of that kind. What is the measure about which so much has been said here? Listening to what has been uttered on the floor of this house one would sup- pose the Irish people have no liberties. Mb. Mills. Hear, hear. Mb. McCarthy. One would suppose they were a down trodden race. Mr. Mills. Hear, hear. Mr. McCarthy. One would suppose they were in the position in which we were before responsible government was granted to us. Mr. Mills. Worse. Mr. McCarthy. Worse. They have a larger representation proportionately than have the people of England and Scotland in the united parliament of Great Britain. They have to-day eighty- seven members; and in the last parlia- ment they held the balance of power between the two great political parties in the Imperial parliament. They boast- ed they could make or unmake govern- ments, as we know they did. They have to-day a band of able representatives in that parliament; prepared and willing to support their views, and it may be said that by-and-bye they will success- fully, perhaps, have their views carried by means of the perseverance and power of that cumpact body directed by Mr. Paniell. It is not correct to compare the situation of the people in this country before responsible government was granted to us, with that of the Irish 1 people to-day. The hon. member for | Quebec East (Mr. Laurier) told us this afternoon that since we had [ been granted responsible government sul- 1 lenness had disappeared from our midst and peace, happiness and loyalty to the crown prevailed throughout the land; but does not the hon. member forget that the bill which gave him that right was forced upon the people of Lower Canada against their wishes ? Mr. Laurier. It was the act of union they opposed. . Mr. McCiJiTHY. Yes, and it is by the Act of Union that the hon. member got responsible government and the liberty to govern himself of which he has boasted, and which he says has enabled his people to live happily and prosperously under the British flag. That Act was passed in the British Par- liament, against the will of the people of Lower Canada, and yet that union with the people of Upper Canada which lasted until the time of Confederation, was found, as my hon. friend has had to admit, to confer happiness and peace and prosperity upon us all. Now, the first thing I find in this Act is what, perhaps, may appe.ar to be a terrible wrong, and that is the right to make preliminary investigation — the right, although no particular man may be charged with crime, to hold, as it were, an inquisition for the purpose of discovering who the criminal may be when a crime is com- mitted. We have for some time past adopted that principle with much effect. If a fire takes place we have the right to hold an inquiry and take evidence for the purpose of discovering who it Avas that committed the arson. Does any hon. member nay that, so far as that is concerned, there ia anjrthing so far astray or wrong? We will pass to the next provision of the Bill, the one concerning summary jurisdiction. It does, as has been correctly stated, in certain mis- demeanors, not in matters of felony, but in the minor descriptions of crime, enable people who are charged with the offences to be tried before two magis- trates, who may commit to gaol for a period not exceeding six months. We are a down-tr..Q wiiC abflt it, then in .'*wh a F- there is power to «i - vha ' > i the case of mur- v9i', ..son and breaking and tiring into dwelling houses, to have the trial take place in England. That is the proposition of Lord Salisbury's govern- ment, and what was the proposition of Mr. Gladstone's government? Mr. Gladstone's proposition was that tliese nie.i should be tried, not by a jury in England, but by a bench of Irish judges. Which is the better of the two ? And I noticed the other day that the home secretary fur England, Mr. Matthews, thought it might bo a good amendment to say that the prisoner should have h.« choice, either to take a bench of Irish judges, or take his trial in England, just a<) he pleased. But is it so certain that fair play cannot be had before a jury at the old Bailey ? Are the people of Enclaiid so united anywhere against Irishmen, when we are told that 160,000 of them went out the other day to Hyde Park to pro- test against this bill — are they also unanimously of the opinion that Irish- men ought to be hanged at all events, that there is no hope of fair play to be found before an English jury? I ask again, not venturing an opinion myself, what are the responsible advisers of tho crown to do? What happened Uie other day in Dublin? What happened at the as- sizes referred to by my hon. friend from North Bruce (Mr. McNeiU)? Simply^ no contradiction of facts, no dispute as to the law. I have an extract hero of the charge that was given by Mr. J ustice Murphy, and perhaps it may be taken as a sample of the whole. The judge stated to the jury: The case is clear, you are privileged, you can do as you please, the evidence is perfectly uncon- tradicted, but the privilege 's yours of disregarding|the evidence. Af r«r half-an- hour's deliberation, the jury returned a verdict of not guilty. Gentlemen, said the judge, your veidict is contrary to the evidence, but it is your privilege to disregard your evidence and your oaths. Now, if that is anythinglikewhatis happening in various parts of Ireland, owing to th^^e political agitations and this agrarian feeling, then the law is paralyzed, the ordinary means of convict- ing those who have been guilty of crime are found not to be effectual, and some othcj' means must be discovered, that means is to offer them a trial in Engkr.d, or before a commission or bench of Irish judges. There is the bill which is called a coercioti bill. But what is it a coercion bill for? It is a bill altering, speaking generally, the procedure in criminsd cases for the purpose of enforcing the criminal law of the land. That ia undoubtedly one means of doing it. Another means is, give them what they want, give them all they desire, give them home rule, and then you will not require tho coercion bill. The ordinary criminal law would be sufficient for the suppression of crime. I have only to poixtt out — that I am not standing here as the justiBer of L rd Sali8bur)''8 gov- ernment, but it is only fair that it should 11 la be mentioned — that at the same time that a bill for the enforcement of crimi- nal law, i-i passing through the House of Commons, m the House of Lords there is a bill to relieve the over-burdened, as some would call them, rack-rented ten- ants. But here again, when we look at statistics what do we find? We are astonished to find how much is made of the rack-rented tenants. Sir, there are over half a million tenants in Ireland, and I am speaking by authority when I s&y that in the lastquarter of lastyear the number of evictions were 522. What percentile is 522 evictions out of half a million tenants ? Out of those we have the heartrending picture of tha Glenbigh evictions, we have those about which we are to hear more from the emissary who is now on his way here to enlighten the people of Canada. But if we will only look at home we have no sympathy for our over-burdened farmer, these men, who, sometimes, have been paying to building societies out of which some hon. members have grown wealthy, 15, 16 and 17 per cent, for money, borrowing at JO per cent., with fines added on until it has grown, as we have known in some cases, 15, 16 and 17 per cent ? We know that would have been impossible in Ire- land, and we know that it was only the increase in the value of property in Canada that enabled the farmers to pay these exorbit&iii; rates. Well, is it to be said that we would countenance them in banding together, the honest yeomanry of this country, to resist such payment ? It is true, it may be said, that they promised to pay this interest. That was their contract, and although the rise in the value of the property has enabled them to pay it, would we justify them iu banding together and refusing to pay ? I think we ought, under these circum- stances, to be careful what we are about to do. Now, the position I ask this house to adopt, and the proposition I pro- pose, before I sit down, to place formaly in the Speaker's hands, is on the lines of the observations I have endeavored to make. But, I desire it to be perfectly well understood that I am not taking a position for or against this coercion bill. I have stated one side, because there have been a number of the members of this house who have told us the other^ I have pointed out what this law is. If we are told to deal with the law, if 'ire are to o£fer an opinion about it, certainly it is only right that we should consider it well, and clearly understand what we- are doinir. Now, we have obtained our own freeiom and our right to govern ourselves, and it behooves ua not to in- vite, by meddling with the affairs of other people, iuterference in our own concerns. I want to know how any hon^ member in this house can undertake to pasis such a resolution as this, saying that a particular measure submitted to the British Parliament, ought not to be passed— I would like to know what that hon. member will by-and-bye say if the British Parliament, with greater power and authority, pass a resolution which will affect our our dearest interesti and interfere with our local concerns. Surely, if we have a ri^ht, with our delegated power under the British North America Act, to say^ to them : You are wrong in passing that Bill, can we with any consistency deny to the British . Parliament the- right to deal with our affairs when you think proper? Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; surely it is a poor rule that will nob work both ways; surelj' we will find ourselves in a difficult position. But this is to be said: While our resolution is practically ineffective, while our reso- lution sent home to Lord Salisbury, if you are going to send it, and to Mr. Pamell and to Mr. Gladstone, will getr into the papers and be read and possibly thrown into the paper basket, their resolutions will have practically the effect of law. Mr. Cueran. No, no. Mr. McCarthy. The hon. gentle- man is wrong, if he will allow me to say so, when he says "no, no," to that statement. What the Parliament of Great Britain enacts overrides the law Sassed by this Parliament. They could etermine by statute what our Customs law should be. Mr. Mitchell. I should like to see them try it. Mr. McCarthy. I do not think they will. 12 Mr. Mitchell. I do not think so. Mr. McCarthy. 1 asree that they will not try it, but if they were to try it, I do not know very much what we could say Mr. Mitchell. We are renoonstrat- We are doing a asked to say by ing. Mr. McCarthy. little more. We are this resolution : "That this House has learned, with "profound regret, of the introduction ■"into the Imperial House of Commons "of the Coercion Bill above mentioned, '"and protests against its adoption, as ""beinj? subversive of the rights and * 'liberties of Her Majesty's subjects n "Ireland." That is what we are asked here to vote upon. Mr. Mitchell. We will alter that. Mr. McCarthy. There has been no suggestion of alteration. Mr. Mitchell. Ye», there has. Mr. McCarthy. That is the way the matter stands before us now. No matter how we alter it, we shall all firid ourselves in this difficulty: You have the right to govern yourselves, nobody is interfering with it ; but you are not satisfied with that, you want to govern somebody else to whom you are not re- sponsible . An Hon. Member. No. Mr. McCarthy. Then this means nothing. It is no good, and it is U' t intended to effect any result. Is it for the people out of doors ? Are we pass- ing these resolutions, are we making these speeches about liberty an \ right anfl freedom for Ireland and all the rest of it, for the people out doors here, and not with any intention of doing the peo- ple of Ireland any good ? It must be one way or the other, and the hon. member can accept either horn of the dilemma he pleases. Mr. Landbrkin. How about your- .3elf ? Mr. McCarthy. I say we should not interfere. I am making' what the hon. member for South Grey (Mr. Lan- ■derkin) perfectly well knows is not a f)opular speech. Mr. Mitchell. Hear, hear. Mr. McCarthy. What the hon. gen- tleman with his kn'jwUdge of the con- stituencies of Ontario from which we both come, would not make, though, perhaps I am speaking his sentiments. But I say this, that I will not stand here as the representative of any constituency under any false colors or false represen- tations. While I have a large Irish population in my constituency, the confidence of many of whom I have the honor to enjoy, I am not afraid to speak to those men and argue this question fairly and squarely before them, and I think they will agree that the course I propose to ask the House to adopt is after all the best one in the interest of the Dominion. A word has been said against the hon. member for Muskoka (Mr. O'Brien), a rebuke has been ad- ministered to him for the language used by him with respect to William O' Brien who is about to come to talk to ui and tell us oi the iniquities of His Excellency the Governor General. Sir, if the hon. member for Muskoka used strong lan- guage, I think perhaps it did credit, if not to his Iiead, certainly to his heart. His Excellency the Governor General is to a certain extent, if not altogether, in the position of a man who cannot de- fend himself in this country. He is in the position of a man who cannot take the platform andanswerWilliamO'Brien, or state his side of the case, and it is on a subject with which we are urtfamiliar, and about which the people of this coun- try are not perhaps very well capable of forming a correct judgment. A.nd what will William O'Brien say when he gets here ? When we have heard what has to be said, perhaps he wi'l find that the atmoitphere of fiee Canada recognizes the rights of both sides, and does not wholly disregard the rights of a man . because he happens to occupy a position of authority. Speat