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1 2 3

FINANCES OF THE DOMINION OF CANADA

BUDGET SPEECH

351.722
TIL

DKLIVKRKD BY

Sir S. L. Jilley,

MINISTER OF FINANCE.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

29th FEBRUARY^ 1884.

flfg^^^asi

OTTAWA :

PRINTED BY MACLEAN, ROGtER 4 CO., WELLINGTON STREET,

1884.

10.

riNANCES OF TOE DOMIXIOX OF CANADA.

BUDGET SPEECH

DICLIVBBUU 1)T

SIR LEONARD TILLEY

MINISTER.^OF FINANCE

THE HOUSE OF COMMONS OF CANADA,

Friday, 2yTH Febkuauy, 1884.

Sir LEONARD TILLEY. Mr. Speaker, iu moving that
■you, Sir, do now leave the Cbair, I dedire to take advantage
of the motion to make my slatement to the House in regard
to the financial condition of the country, and the policy of
the Government with regard to the Tariff at the present
Session. It will be remembered, Sir, that in the Session of
1882, as well as in the Session of 1883, I felt myself war-
ranted in stating that at no period in the history of (Janada
did the credit, the financial standing and the general
buainchs of the Dominion stand in so good a position as it
did at thopo two periods. I am iii a position, I think, to
state to-day that at no previous period in the history of
this country did the credit of Canada and the financial con-
dition of Canada stand better than it does now. With
respect to the general trade of the country, I regret to say
that owing to the depreciation in the value of lumber,
wkich is one of our principal exports, owing to over-trading
in certain branches in the Dominion, as well as over-im-
Dorts, we have a depression at the present time, which
I trust will not be of long duration but will be speedily
overcome, and wo may soon be in the position we
occupied a year ago, prospering ia ever^ particular. I
trust, Sir, that the s'catomeat I am about to submit to the
House will add to the evidence which has been given from
year to year since 1879, that the policy adopted by
the Government in that year has been successful and in the

5065

interests ot Canada. Sir, I desire in the first place to call
attention to the receipts and expenditures for last year, and
I will bo brief in doing so because the details of the expen-
diture for the last tiscal year, as contained in ^ho Public
Accounts for that year, are in the hands of hon. members ;
but there are some points to which I desire to call the
Bpccial attention of the House, i may state, what every
hon. member knows, that the receipts f )r tb.at year were
836,794,640, that the expenditure was $28,7:^>0,ir)7, leavinf^
a Kuiplus of $7,0U'4,4'J2. Addinj,' lo that the $l,0(>i>,000
received from the sale of lands in Manitoba and the North-
Wei«tt, ^ives us a surplus for Ihat year of over $8,000,000.
Sir, it has been said, and it will bo said no doubt during this
dihci.ssion, that the expenditure for the fiscal year 1882-83
being $1,663,054 in excess of ihd prov mis year, it is an
evidence of extravagance on Iho pan of the Administration.
In order lo lucet that charge I desire to state the items
composing that additional expenditure, and then I will
leave the House to decide whether the Government, because
they are responsible primarily as submitting the Estimates
to Parliament, are oj^en to the charge of extravagant expen-
diture during that year. The S!>1,663,U51 of increase may
be i-tated as follows, these being the principal
items. Sinking fund, 853,412. That is simply, as
every hon. member knows, a redemption of the debt to
that extent over and above the previous year. Subsidies
to Provinces, $75,673. Thut we know is a payment made
under statute, which requires that every tenth year
tho subsidies to ti.e smaller Provinces be increased until
they reach 80 cents per head of tho population, on
400,000 each, and the additional concession made to Mani-
toba as well. Legislation (election expenses") $158,568.
That amount was required for expenses connected
with the General Elections. No objection can there-
fore be made to that item. Postal service, $195,522. When
I state to the House that the increased receipts were
$2ia,000 it will bo evident that there has been no
increased taxation with respect to that item. Kailways
and canals working expenses, $371,364. When 1 state to
ttie House that tho increased income during that year from
those public works was $3i<O,000, against an increase of ex-
penditure oi $371,364, the House will understand that no
additional taxation was imposed under that head. Immi-
gration and quarantine, $184,763. Whon we take into
account the increased immigration to this country during
that year, I think every hon. member will say that tho
money was well expended, and that it will yield an ade-
quate return. Mounted Police, $10y,369. That ex-

-1

jKsiidlture was under the authority of Parliaraont,
made upon the ntatomont of the Mininlor of the Interior
at the tinie, that lor public roawons the force should
be incroasKl. It has boon incrcaHod and that ad-
ditional oxpondituro was incunod during that year.
The increased expoudituioon public work i and harbours was
8436, ;{59. This oxpendituio, I am «uro, will uo generally
approved of. It was an oxpondituro demanded by Parlia-
ment on account of our largo surplus, which gave u;j the
opportunityofgivirigincroascd accommodation, and increased
facilities to our commerce by the improvemontof our harbours
and the constiuction of public buildings throui;liout tho Dom-
inion ot Canada. That expenditure of $4:^6,358 was not only
voted by Parliament and cheerfully granted, but it will, I
am sure, bo acquiesced in by both sides of tho House. The
increase in the administration of justice was $33,89o. This
increase became necessary owing to local legislation requir-
ing the appointment of increased judges in different parts
of the Dominion. Then we have an increase of $150,000
for the bounty to the fishermen, which hud the almost
unanimous concurrence of this House, and met with
the general appioval of ''le country. These items
make about $I,iiOO,000, ana it will bo found that only
a small portion— that portion which was expended on
pnblic works, and that jiortion paid as a bounty to the
fishermen — were direct charges on the country ; that is to
say, they were increasis which would necessarily increase
the taxation of the people. Therefore while the expenditure
has been increased about $1,600,000, the taxation has not
covered one half that amount, and the expenditure for the
other portiori was on public works and other public services
yielding more than compensating revenue in return.
JMow, tSir, there were other expenditures during the
year chargeable to capital account amouniing to
$14,171,413. How were these expenditures mot?
In the first place, there was a surplus from
consolidated revenue, amounting to $7,064,492; proceeds
from the lands of the North- West, $1,009,010; deposits in
the savings banks of the country, $4,445,445 ; and under
tho arrangement made with the Canadian Pacific Eailway
Company, we received the proceeds of the sales of their
bonds, which wor in our hands, these proceeds amounting,
at the close of the year, to $2,6J4,000, upon which 4 per
cent, interest was paid. This covered all the expetiditures
of thai year, without our being under the necessity, as I
staled la-t Session, of going abroad for a dollar in order to
meet this expenditure. I may say further, in answer to the

clmrgo of tho iinnosiiion of iiierotiHcd taxation by this Gov-
ornmont upon tno pcojjlo of Curiudu, timt (Jeducling tho
HUiplurt iVom tho rocoiptb of CimtoniH und Kxeiwo sinco
187i'', and charging wnnply tho iimoutitH which woro
noccHHUiy icr tho puytnont of tho cxj)ondituro8 of
tho (jovornnjcut, our oxpondilurc por head of tho
popuhition Hinco 1879, haw bocn lohn Ihun tho avcragt of ox-
pondituroH from 1874 to 1879. I rccolloct that tho loader of
tho Opposition in tho speech ho made in atiHwor to tho Speech
from tho Throne, remarked that 1 wa.s great on avoragoH.
Well, Sir, 1 believe that that is a correct j>rinciplo to apply,
and cBi)ecially to tho conduct of a Govornraont. No Govern-
ment would bo justified in taking ono particular year of thoii*
expenditure and presenting that to the countiy as an ovi
denco of their economy; neither would it bo fair for an
Opposition to tako a particular year, in which perhaps tho
expenditure was largo, owing to circumhtuuces over which
tho Government had no ccmtrol, or if they had
control, cijcumtstances under which they felt it desir-
able to make increased expenditure in tho interests
of tho country — I say it would not bo fair that
flUL'h a year should bo specially selected. Thereforo,
in all discussions on this subject, I desire to taiio tho
averages as well as tho expenditures in pai ticular years, as
ovidenco of our economy or of our extravagance. Now, Sir,
wo find that lust year, deducting tho suLphis, tho taxation
per head of our poj)ulation from Custora-s and Excise,
and theso are tho only heads of taxation, was $4.8-^^
as against an average of S4.8S per head from 1874 to 1879.
Wo also iind that taking tho average fioni 1879 to 18S3 it
amounted to $4.81 jter head, against an oxpouditure from
187 f to 1879 of $4.88 per h^;ad. Under thooo circumbtaneea
it will bo found that while it is true that tho rocoipis have
been large, while it is true that during last year our surplus
lias been large, tho amount which was necofisary to pay the
expenditures oi the country and afford all the appropria-
tions necessary for public works, and every other expen-
diture, the taxation on the people of tho counJry was less
than the avoiago from 1874 to 1879. Now, Sir," it may be
interobtiug to tho House to know under what heads tho
increase of income took place. Tho incrouse in Customs
was §1,428,012; Excise, $375,257; Post Office and Money
Orders, S:i 12,503 ; Public Works, including Railways,
$390,004 ; increased interest received $87, 181. The increase
in the Customs may be slated under the following heads :
Eailway carriages, lumber, manufacture of, and coal,
$520,000. 1 may say, that a largo portion of the duty paid
on railway carriag03 and locomotives was upon railway car.

ri.'iiros and locomotivos imported by tho (Vinadian Pacific
Riilway Comp:uiy,\vlu) roquiiod thoni cnrlior timn tlioy coiiUI
bo mado in ibis count ry. Our tnamittictnrors of locomotivon
wore HO fully occiip!(Ml at that time tbalovon IboGovcrnmoiit
biid to H(Mid abioa 1 in order to ^ot tlie nupply necoshary for
the incroaned tr.iffio on tho railway, and locomotiveH had to
l)c imported to moot pros-iinf^ demand-'. On bi'andy, j^in,
rum, wbi^koy and wines, tho increase wuh 8230,0110; on
fruits atui HUi^ar, %ll'i,^Of) ; on lacjcs, bof-iory, jewellery,
$71,000; wbeat Hour, ^IC.OIO; macbincry, 8150,000; pi^'
iron, $28,000; iclasswaro, $54,000. Th<^ ineivaHo of HxcIho
revenue wflH mainly on tho article of Hpiiits; and tbe decrease
on tobacco was about covered by tbe incroaHo of revenue
received on malt. That was before the decrease of 8 eent(»
per pound of [• xeiso took place in the article of tobacco.
ThcKO arc tbe items with rofcrcnco to the operations of tho
last year. I desire tiwW to call tho attention of tbe LTouso
to the eslimateil income and expenditure for the present
year. This is an amended estimate made from our
oxperionco down to tho present date. Tho esti-
mate of Customs for tho current yenr wiis $21,500,000.
Tho amended estimate is $20,250,000. Now, Sir,
it may bo a^hcd by the House, what has occurred to pro-
duce this reduction ? I may state in answer to that ques-
tion that the imports of last year wore 5?5,0{)0,000 in ex-
cess of tho estimate and the revenue from Customs $1,000,000
in excess of the estimate. I am satisfied, and it is now well
understood, that tho imports of the last year were greater
than was wananted by the demands and by tho consump-
tion. We are now feeling the effect of that over-importa-
tion, because there is a corresponding reduction in the
revenue received fiom Customs as the result. Then,
there is another cause. Since this time twelve
months, a large portion of tho imports into Canada
have decreased in value. As those hon. members who
are engaged in business know perfectly well, many
of tho articles imported have fallen in value, owing
to the increaf>ed stock in hand in the United States
and in the old country. I know of one article,
which was formerly sold for $9, but which is now
sold for $f).75 ; and so with many other articles. There-
fore, the over-importation cf $5,000,000 last year, and the
fall in the valuo of imports this year, have resulted in a
reduction in the total imports down to tho present time;
and, estimating that tho next four months will yield one-
half of the revenue that has been received from Customs
in tho past eicjbt months, I place tho estimated income for
tho current year at tho following figures: —

OuHtomrt «••••••• .»•..••>' •■ f20,2AO,00O

Exciio 6,^60,000

Post OfHce l,S0o,0(»O

Pulillo Work^, including railway*, 3,000,000

Interest on inve,tineuta 8oo,00t)

Oilier Bourcei 800,000

TotHlincomo $32,200,0co

Tho nmonded CHtimftiod oxpondituro is $31,200,000. Tho
eHtimuto nmdo ih\i* limo twolvo montlis placed tho oxpou-
dituro at 831,010,000; but wo huvo hud to oxpitid u vtM-y
conBidorubloHumon public workH — lor tho coinplolioii of tho
public buildin/,'rt in Manitoba, on tho harbour oj Toronto,
and on workn in various othor parts of tho Dominion whore
workH woto ui)Holuloly ticceafiury, and tl)o sum voted was not
found Hufliciont— bo that tho oxpondituro under thai head has
been increased; and thoreforo I e.stimalo that the total
expenditure this your will amount to tho Hum named, leaving
a surplus of consolidated revenue of 81,000,000. I ostimato
that tho proceeds from public landg in the NorthWost will
amount to another 81,000,000, making' tho total surplm
for this year $2,000,000. It may be said by hon. gontle-
men opposite that this is a great falling off from tho s.rplus
of $8,000,000 last year; but it will bo remembered that this
time twolvo months 1 estimated the suiplus from consoli-
dated revenue for the current year at 82,250,000, my
present estimate being $1,250,000 loss. Weil, let us see, Sir,
what circumstances have led to that reduction. In tho
first place, the expenditure has boon increased, while tho
receipts have been reduced. Why is there such a groat
differenco in the surpluses of tho two years— 88,01)0,000 in
the one case, and $2,000,000 in tbo othor ? Simply because,
Isaving that surplus, the Government folt that they could
como to tho IlouBO and ask Parliament to appropriate a
much larger sum of money for public works, including
buildings and harbours, than was ever asked from Parliament
before— a sum of money that will leach $3,250,000 during
the current year, or an increase of about $1,500,0U0. The
Government felt, Sir, that with the surplus thoy had at
their disposal, thoy were justified in asking Parliament for
these a) propriations ; Parliament granted thorn ; and these
moneys are nov*r being expended for these purpoi^es.
In addition to that, we have increased expenditures
on the postal f-ervico, on payments on account of
Sinking Fund, on Immigration, on Militia and Defence, and
on Mounted Police for the current year. Well, Sir, there
was an increased expenditure of $2,250,000, with an esti-
mated reduction in tho revenue, which wo supposed would
leave us with a surplus of $2,250,000; whereas, owing to

tho fullin. Dffiii tho rovoimu, it 1h oHtimuleil that our Hur-
i.luH wii. l»o 81,U()0,()()I» from conHolidutotl rovoniio, und
$ ,000.5K)0 from public luiulrt. It tnuHl ulrto bo borne in
mind ii\ut llio rovonuo wuh doorcusotl from othur cuusort.
VVImt wcro Ihoy ? Ono wuh a. reduction of tuxiilion of
12 250,00i» UH compurtHl witb tho your 188I>2. Wimt wore
tho rodu(!(ion ? 8844,Ol(j on ton; 87K,:U:^ on cotVoo ;
8yi,7r.> on tin Hhoots und blocks ; 8200,000 on Htumprt ;
8.')0,000 ol ]ioHtHj;o on nowHpuptirH ; 870i>,uOO of loduc-
tion in the lolmcco duty ; 81,000 on Hcrup iion ; 814,250
on poriodiculs ; und 8j'>,U<J** »>'» wiro und othor articlos ;
muking ubout 8^,300,000 of reduction in tho tuxiition of tho
country, which ot course roilucod tho Hurplu-. IVow, Sir,
wo conio to thoHubjcct of tho estimuLed income und expon-
dituro for the liscul your 1884-b5. The os.irauicd income m
ati fullowH : —

From Ouatom, K'^^Z'Tc^

" Excist^ 6,660,000

'« iCt Office 1,9(0,001)

" Public Works, inchulitig Riihvaya 3,000 000

" InttTfsl and InvestmjiitB If?'*^ '^

" Other sources BOO.^j^q

Total estimated inconw $32,000,000

I muy mention here, us one of tiio cuuweu of reduced
income from CuHtomn which we have tukcii into account
i« the increased i>roducin<; power of tho manufucturos
of Canada. The munufuciuroH of the country have
been increasing from year to year to such an extent
asto materially alFect tho revenue of tho country by
causing a reduciion in thiHmports. Tho estimated expen-
diture, according to the Estimates now on the Table, will
be82y,811,b"31>. It will l.eobsorvtd by hon. members, that tho
estimate, so tar as public works are conceruui, of 81,900 000
urovidt'H for the completion ot public works, for which
votes were taken last SeHsion and are hcwi; expended this
year. Thoy contain no now item and it is probable therefore
that a very considerable amount will appear in the Supple
montary E'-timates for public works in a idition to those con
taint'd in tho Estimates before us it is probable that
Parliament will be asked for some expenditure with I'ewr-
once to the obtaining, or, at least, securing the extension of
railways, and of course the interest of that sum will have
also to be provided. It has been intimated here that it may-
be found desirable to extend the Canadian Pacific Railway
fiystem from Montreal to (Quebec, and an amount may be
required for that purpose. There may be expenditures also
beyond that, but whatever thoy may be, there will still be, in
addition to tho expenditure on public works, some items, no

doubt, of that kind to ho addrd. It is critimatod there-
f'lio that tho S)ip])lornont:irj EhtimatcH will amount to-
$800,000 whicdi will make (ho'total ox])Oiiditnrofor tho next
year 830, 6' 11, fi;^!); tho estimnto Hurjilus from oonf-olidatod
rcvcniio in $1,400,000, and tlio estimated receipts from land
in tho North-Wost $l,'J.iO,i)()0, or a total estimated Mirplus
tor next year of $2,()r)0,0;j0. Tho leading items of incroaso
aro : Militia, S13!),000 ; Mounted Poliee, $51,000; Post Office,
$211,000; and tho leadini^' items of decrcaso aro sinking
fund and interest $235,000, Public Works $750,000, Indians
$147,020. Under these circumstances, it would appear that
during the current and tho next year the surplus will ])ro-
bably bo in tho nei£,'hLourhood of $2,250,000 per annum, and
it will probably bft satisfactory to hon. gentlemen oppo-
site who havo objected from time to time to tho large
surplus to learn that it has been reduced by a reduc-
tion of taxation, by decreased importation, tho result
of increased manufactures in tho country. Now I desire
to call the attention of the House to objections that
have been taken to tho Tariff of 1879 by hon. gentlemen
opposite who havo complained of tho enormous surplus that
wo havo received in tho past ; who c(,mplain that we have
been taking from tb<' pockets of the people a large Mim of
money which it would bo much bettor to have allowed to
remain there. Tho hon. tho leudor of the Opposition in tho
remarks ho made upon tho ibject, said : $'^0,000,000 have
been taken out of tho pockets of tho people during tho last
four years unrecessai-ily ; yes, he said not only $20,000,000,
but probably $30,000,000. When I read that statement, T road
it as delivered elsewhere; when it was made in tho House,
one of my collpagues, sitting near me, said : " What does he
mean by that ? " That was the questiim T asked myself
when 1 road that statement for the first time. Well, I
concluded, from the remarks made, that tho hon. member
not only took into acfount tho $20,000,000 wo had
received but ho added tho interest on that and other
charges, the profit'^, [ suppose, that the consumer had to
pay to tho middleman. 1 presume that is what tho hon.
gentleman meant. Now, lot us seo how the case stuiris.
We have had in tho last four vea'-s an average surplus of
$5,000,000 a vcar, but $4,000,000 of that, or nearly, has
been the proceeds of land in tho North- West ; that there-
fore, was no la^ upon the people. You may take $4,000,000
off that, at all events, to commenco with. Then lot us seo
how far tho position taken by tho hon. member, if I under-
etood him aright, is carried out. He estimates, T presume,
from tho remarks that fojl from him, that the constimer
pays not orily an increased duty but an incioased profit

on that duty to ilio man from whom he purch»i:-os
the goods. Is that clearly cHtablishcd ? 1 will appeal
to every hon. gentleman in the House to-day who is
doing busincHH whethc;- the manufacturers in the United
States and the manufacturers in the old country
have not approached him in the last thre(! or four years
and offered to Pell him goods at a lower rale to meet the
incrf sed duties that have been collected and gone into the
Treasury of the Dominion. Wo know that is the case.
No one knows it better than the hon. Minister of
Customs who has been brought in contact with this
from day to day since .Sid. Everybody understands
this fact, and therefore a very considerable portion
of the $10,000,000 of Customs that has been paid into
the Treasury of the Dominion over and above what was
necessaiy to pay our oxpendituro, has been, beyond doubt,
paid by the manufacturer abroad. Is it a fact that the
consumer always pays the increased ^'uty ? Wo know per-
fectly well ihat many of our men who are largely engaged
in businefs complain that the imposition of the 2J per cent,
additional dutv upon the goods they import is just so much
out of their po'ckels.as they do not get it from the consumer.
That is the allegation very often made. 1 will quote an
authority hero which the hon. leader of the Opposition, I
think, will not object lo, to t^how that in many cases and
certainly in some, the consumer does not pay the duty. 1
quote, as an authority, the hon. gevuliman who has just left
his seat and is sitting at the lower part of tli'j Iront benches
(Mr. Paterson, Brant). The hon. leader oi" the Opposition
may not consider him quite as good authority, judging from
what has occurred lately, as if it came from the hon. gentle-
man opposite (Sir Eichard Cartwright.) Still I know he has
great confidence in the opinion and judgment of the hon.
member, and therefore I will give the leader of the Opposition
that hon, gentleman's view lo show that in many cai-es the
consumer does not pay the additional duty. I refer to the
hon. member for Brant (Mr. Palerson) who said, in 187G :

"The other year the Finance Minister, in revising the Tariff, g«iye
Bon)e encou'-agemeot to our indus^try which it never had before. The
result was Dial 1,000 men who were engaged in that industry in Ger-
many were literally trensporte^, by the change in the Tariff, to Canada
and set to work here. The cost of the article was not increased one
iota, «nd Canada got all the benefit. Tha middlemen puftered a dimi-
nution of profits, but for them nobody seems to care much, the producer
and consumer receiving all the sympathy.''

That is the statement, no doubt a correct one, and it is
applicable to many other articles upon which the duty is
increased, the consumer not paying it. The experience of
the last four years has proved beyond doubt the

wisdom, or, at any rate, the tairnees of that Tariff;
that iH the wisdom of its provisions in secniring the nocee-
eary revenue, and besides the necessary protection for the
industries of the country. New it will bo well understood
by hon. members that if a Tariff had been framed that
would simply ^ive revenue t-uflSicioni to meet the expendi-
ture for the first year or two, there would, as our manu-
facturing industries increased, in two or three j'ears be a
condition of things that would require the readjustment
of the Tariff and the imposition of increased duties.
Well, Sir, the Tariff was to a certain extent, I admit, an ex-
periment, because we did not know exactly what it would
produce. Wo found that, by its application to the imports
of the country, from the improved condition of the country
increasing those imports, though we had a deficit in the first
year, as the result of the over-importation of the year pre-
vious, we had in the next year a surplus of four millions, in
the year following a surplus of six miUions,and in the fourth
year a surplus of seven million dollars. Under these circum^
Rtarces, finding that that Tariff was ample to meet not only
all that was required for the time beinif, bu^^i to meet the
requirements of the future, the Government asked
Parliament to take off two millions and a quarter of
taxation. What is the position we are in to-day ? Not-
withstanding that the people have been relieved
from the payment of that two millions and a quarter
of taxation, notwithstanding that there has been
a large increase in the manufacturing industries
of the country, still we have a surplus of from
$1,000,000 to $2,000,000 a year, sufficient to meet any
further increase which may take place in the producing
power of our manufi.cturers throughout Canada. Under
these circumstances, we are i-n a position to-day to meet
Parliament and say, we have provided for the past, we have
had a surplus in the past, we have reduced taxation, and the
revenue, without any change so lar as increased taxation is
concerned, is ample and sufficient for tho future, expen-
diture that may fall upon the Dominion. Now, under those
circumstances, I hold that this Tariff has been in that respect
a "uccess. It may be said: "It is true, but should you
not have made it something less than it was and not
have had such a large surplus during the three years
to which you refer?" We might have done it, but I
doubt if it would have been politic, even if we knevv that
such would have been the result. What has b>^en the effect?
We have been able to take off the duties on the necessaries
of life, many of them, and we have been able to do what
members of the late Government said they intended to do

if they had boon ii or whon thoy had a surplus reve-

nue They justifieu misolvcH in not collecting revenue
flufficicnt to pay the expenditure from 1875 down to 1879,
becuupe, when good times came, they would take the sur-
plus and appropriate it to paying the deficits during that
period. Wo have done that. Wo have paid oft those defi-
cits. We have reduced our debt. By the legislation that
has taken place hero, we have increased the Domimou note
circulation since 1879 by $6,50it,000, and by providi .g tbat
wo should deposit Dominion dobontures guarautocd by the
Imperial Government for a part of it, wo have not boon re-
fluired to keep one dollar of gold more than when we had a
circulation of $11,000,000 or $12,000,000 ; therelore wo have
had an increased circulation of $6,500,000 without any great
cost to the country. Wo have reduced the inteiest of our debt
by having a respectable surplus, and thus increasing tho value
of our ^o^urities ; and, more than that, we have, by the course
we have pursued with reference to tho approprialing of tbis
surplusinreducingourdcbt,placed ourselves niRucha position

that the net interest paid by the Dominion of Canada during
the last fiscal year was $290,000 loss than we paid in
1879-80. Under these circumstances, Sir, 1 think that the
policy of the Government has been justified, the lariti has
been justified, and I believe that the evidence that we will
be able to submit a little later on will contii-m our friends
and supporters who have sustained this Tariff up to the
present time in the conviction that it is the policy to pursue
f .r tho future. I propose to follow, to-day, the course which
1 have pursued bince 1879, and which, 1 think, is the most
satisfactory line to take, and that is, year after year, to
place upon record the answers to the objections that were
made by hon. members opposite when that Tariff was under
consideration. 1 purpose,on the present occasion, to take up as
I have in thepa8t,all the objections urged by Iwn. gentlemen
opposite in 1879, and to produce, from our Trade Returns
and from tho statistics that we have, evidence that l tninK
will be satisfactory to this House and to the country, that
their fears, entertained and expressed in 1879 have not been
justified by results any year since that period, down to the pre-
sent. But I desire, before I go any farther, to call tho atten-
tion of the House to the few changes that the Government
propose to make in tho Tariff. 1 say they are few and unim-
porumt, because, after considering this question carefully, the
Government thought it best, this year at all events, to dis-
turb tho Tariff as little as possible. I know it has been said
we have since 1879 made a good many changes every year
and I think thoy were wise and judicious, but wo all teit
at the time that it was desirable to do as little in that way as

poflsiblo, unle?8 the public intorosts demanded them; bat in
the prcHont year thochannrcs aro not important, and they are
in tins dircction—thoy a.e in the din>ction of ^Hvin^ to the
manufucturor articles that aro now unonnmorated and pay
20 per cent , at a reduced rate of duty of 10 per cent., or to
place thom upon the free li^^t. This'ls still vecn<rnmn<f the
pnnciploof maintainintjand encourai,nn<? the imlustries of
Canada. Hie articled it is proposed to place upon the free
list are as follows :— Belting cloths. Boracic acid. Canvas
manuhictured from jute, 58 inches wide, for floor oil cloths.
Ihat has been free when uncalendered, and I may say hero
that the parties engaged in Ihisindustry throughout Canada
thought they hada ri-ht to import and did import the un-
calendered article for a time, but it was found to bo not
consistent with the law, and it is proposed 1o place the
jute canvas calendered in the same position as uncalendered
jute canvns was before. Cherryheat welding compound,
trrease and grease scrap was upon the free list before, but
connected with it was the condition " when imported by
soap manufacturers." That is struck out and it is open for
any person as well as soap manufacturers to import grease
and grease soap. Indiero paste and extract. Indigo has
been free in the past, but they have a new preparation of
mdigo called '• paste and extract " for the same purposes
and It IS proposed to introduce these articles into the free
ist. It Will be remembered that last Session it was decided
by 1 arliament that iron beams, sheets, plates, and knees
for iron or composite ships or vessels, should be free'
and It 18 now proposed to add angles to that list,
and make it iron or steel, because the parties
are importing and using steel as well as iron, and it is
simply placing steel for these purposes in the same cate-
gory, and adding angles. Oxide of manganese. Ger aan
mineral potash. Sulphate of sodium. Steel for saws was
free before. We add straw cutters cut to shape. We strike
out colcothar. It was an uncertain article, and an attempt
was mode to import other articles under that name. Vege-
table fibre for manufacturing purnoses. That wlso involved
agreat deal of difficulty in the Customs Department, and it
IS propof^ed to strike that out. Fish-plates, steel, to be
struck out of the free list, and they will come in under the
iron and steel plates at the same rate of duty. Then T come
to the dutiable list. Acetic acid, raised from 15 to 26 per
cent. It was found that a very strong description of vine-
gar under the head of acetic acid was imported, and it pro-
bably was acetic acid, but, by reducing it, and adding
largo qu;mtities of water, thoy converted it into
vinegar, and paid less dutj t.ian the m*in who imported

vinegar, so it is to be placed at the Bame rate as vinegar,
and tlioroforo it is propoised to put buch a duty upon it as
will make about the same rate of duty aa ia paid on vinegar.
CapliuH, unfininliod Leghorn hata, now paying Z5, are to be
the name as tinishcd — 20 per cent. Carpeting and mats of
hemp are to bo the fcarao as jute. Jute now pays 25 per
cent., but hemp does not A dilficulty occurred with refer-
ence to the character of the article that was entered, and
they are to be made both the same. Celluloid moulded into
sizes for knife and fork handles, and not manufactured, 10
))or cent. This has become nocessarj' in order to supply
cno or two cutleries that have been staited in the Domin-
ion, and it in proposed to admit handles untinished at 10 per
cent. Last year we placed 27^ ])er cent, upon cottons,
prints, and dyed cottons— they remain the same. Joans
and coutilles were loft on the 20 per cent, list, with one or
two articles of a similar description of cotton, and it is
projtosed now to place jeans and coutilles only for
corset makers, at 20 per cent. Cotton, 42 inches wide, for
enamelled cloth. This 42-inch cotton is not made iu the
Dominion of Canada. The manufacturers of window
shades were given the right to import it at 15 per cent.,
and this is extending it to the manufacturers of enamelled
cloth. Earthenware decorated, printed or sponged and
all not elsewhere spocilicd— this is the same as at pre-
sent, ;iO per cent. 1 may state here that the reason
for the more definite de.-cription is that a question has
arisen between the importers and the Customs Depart-
ment with referenco to the Taritf as it exists at pre-
sent. An action was broui(ht by a firm in Montreal, claim-
ing that the Customs Department had made an illegal
collection. A suit was brought, and the verdict was "iven
in favour of the Department; and it has been thought
better in order to prevent any difficulty in the future that
the descri])tion of the earthenware should bo more specially
given. India rubber vulcanized handles, for knives and forks,
10 percent. Iron,— east-iron forks, inan unfinishod condition,
10 per cent. Labels for fish canH and other printed matter,
to pay G cents per lb. and 20 por cent. Pins of ail kinds
at present under the Tariff, made of brass wire, were one
rate of duty, and of iron wire another rate ; and as a con-
siderable amount of capital has been invested in ()ntari(j
in making these i)ins the duty is made 30 per cent, on all.
Soap potvders, o cents per pound. Sleel now $5 per ton, is
to bo $3 per ion and 10 per cent. This is in order to
equalize the • .■. y more genorally, and gives somo more
protection to the steel industry than it had in the past.
Steel,— rolled round wire rods, under half an inch in

diaraotor, for munufacturing wire. It now pays 10 per
oont. without any condition attached to it. Arrani^en)enta
aro being made for the miinufacture of wire, which now
pays 15 ])er cent., and in order to give the munufucturors
MOmo profit it is jjroposoi to reduce that derfcription
of iron used in tlio matiuractuvo of wire, to 5 per cent
Needles, cylinder, hand frame and others, — tliis particular
description of uoedles niaiiufacluied in the Dominion of
Canada is to pay heroatter by this proposal 30 per
cent. Now, I come to the question of the sugar duty.
During the last six months the Government have had
their attention cidled to this question by a number of
individuals throughout the Dominion of Canada. I may
mention that during last year, in October or November, a
new tariff on sugar came into effect in the United States.
That tariff is based upon the saccharine value of sugar below
No. 13, tested by the polariscopo. It has, by its
operation, changed very considerably the trade in that
country, and it has effected, .to a certain extent, the tr.ide
with UH, because a claPLi and description of sugar that was
formerly manufactured for, and taken largely by, the
American market, suited our Taritf. That is now changed,
to a certain extend, and the result has been that imports of
sugar from the East Indies and from Brazil have increased
considerable during the last six months. Therefore it be-
came a serious question with the Government as to how
they were to deal with this matter. I may say here that
difficulties under the existing Tariff have aiisen, as the Min-
ister of Customs knows very well, under the following pro-
visions: All sugars imported from the countries of produce
paid no duty upon packages or charges, therefore sugar im-
ported from the country of growth, suffered vaiioas deduc-
tions, according to the value of these packages, and
the amount of these charges. These varied from 7 up
to, in many cases, 27, and great difficulty has b^en ex-
perienced by the Department in order to get at an accurate
statement of those charges. Then, on the other hand,
difficulties have been experienced by the Department
in ascertaining the exact value of sugar. In sonie cases it
was known and afterwards discovered that sugars were im-
ported below their value, and unreasonable and illegal de-
ductions were made for packages and for charges. After
having given this matter a goou deal of consideration, the
Government have decided for the present— though the
matter was pressed on them very strongly, and there is a
good deal to be suid in favour of adopting tho polariscope
test, — to delay action at all events for tho present Session,
in order to give them an opportnuity of investigating this

matter fully, bocnuso it is a qnostion thut wo cannot deal
with in a hurried manner and without giving it full
and mature conHidoration, as otherwise diflaHirons
results n)i<j;ht occur. Wo can make an investigation our-
bolvoH , we can (inter upon nogotiationp, which will, no
doubt, bo not only dcbirablo bat necoHsary, in the pvenent
state of arrangcmoiits l)otwecn the United Statca and Spain.
It will lie one of the objoctK, 1 urn sure, ol tho eaily ettbrts
of our High ComrnibHiontM' when ho rotu;'ns to Kuropo, to
endciivoui' to make bome iiri'angemcnls with Spain on that
Hubject; tliereforo wo thought proper that this matter
Hhoulil stand, at all events, as far as the adoption of the
]iolariscopo test wiis concerned, until tho next Session of Par-
liament. To obviate exi^tillgditficl!ltios, we make this propo-
sition: that while tho duty now colloctcd upon sugars im-
ported from tho country of growth and produce is 30 per
cent., after deducting charges, it is proposed to make the
invoice for the payment of duty free on board, including
packages and all charges, and to reduce the duty to Hl^ per
cent. That is the proposition ; and it will give abouD the
same result. And it has been decided, also, to establish
such a system as will prevent what has occurred
in the past— an improper and illegal entry of goods
at one poi't and at a lower price than at another port.
The arrangement is to be made so that there will be a uni-
form fixed rate throughout the whole Dominion, with refer-
ence to tho cost of sugar, in the future. Now, Sir, another
chanue is proposed. At present, the rate of duty collected
on molasses, when used for conversion into sugar or syrup, is
25 i)er cent., ai.d lor domestic purposes, 15 percent. ; it is pro-
posed to reduce tho duty on all molasses to 15 per cent, when it
comes from the port of production direct,and to remain as now
6 per cent higher if it does not come from the port direct.
The duty is to be collected free on board . Then, chloride of
zinc and sulphate of zinc, used in tho manufactures, is to be
reduced to f) per cent. It is in tho unenumerated list at
present. Then will follow tho I'epealing of all claus'>8
inconsistent with the foi-egoing ; and it is proposed to amend
pection 8. 42 Vic,, chap. 15, with reference to damaged and
peri.-hable goods. At present, if less than 25 per cent, of
the whole invoice is damaged no return can be had.
It is proposed, now, that if for instance in a case containing
plate glass or ylass of any kind 25 per cent, of the package
is destroyed, then tho party is to have the benefit. If 20
packages out of 100 packages at the present time were
destroyed and not amounting to 25 per cent, of the whole,
the party would not get any bonotit. These are tho provis-
ions contained in the proposals to be submitted to tho

Hoaso. Thoy, it miythina^, rodiico Iho amount of rovoouo
tlmt will bo coUoctod under ihoir operation.

Mr. MITCHELL. Muy I ask if you propose to take the
duty off corn meal ?

Sir LEONARD TILLEY. Not at the present Session.

Mr. MITCEELL. I hope you will at a very early period,
at nome future Senbion, consider it.

Sir LF.ONARD TILLEY. I desire to call the attention
of the House to the objections that have, on former
occasions, been raised to this Tariff. One was that
it would damage our credit in England. It will bo
remembered very well by hon. gentlemen who wore in the
House in 1879 that that was one of the principal objections
brought forward by hon. gentlemen opposite. It has not
damaged our credit down to the present time. In Octobei-
last, our 4 per cent, securities were higher than thoy ever
reached before. They were, ex-dividend, U percent more
than we obtained down to 1878 or 1879. I will take this
opportunity of stating what arrangements were made in
England, when I was last there, with respect to the matur-
ing' loan. 1 placed myself, by authority lof the Order in
Coiincil, in communication with our agents there, with
respect to the redemption of iho loan. After conference
with them, it wa^ donded that about Nove uber it would be
wibo to plfco a loan for £2,000,000 sterling ou the market to
redeem in part the 5 per cetit. securities that fall duo on 1st
January, 1885. This won d leave us v» iih a smaller amount
to place in the market the next year. Il was su^'gost^d by
the agents that that loan should ba a short one, for ten
yoarsTand at -i -jov cent., that we might be in a position to
say to the holders of the present loan maturing oa 1st
Ja'nuary next, bearif g 5 per cont., W3 w II eilhor exchange
thoi-o with you d;>llai' for dollar or pound lor pound, whicli
which would be plac-tig the -4 per ceut, loan at practically
U or ;i per cent, uroniiuin, because we had ihree coupons to
pay on the dcbeuturos m:iluring on 1st January next, or
exchange them as fur as they go, or allow the agentH to
parohasc thorn as thoy were placed on the market, ihey
then Hiiggestodthat next ymv, later in the season, in Decem-
ber, we should place a 3J per cent, loan on the market ior
thirty years for the re lemption of the balance of that loan,
and for the £2,000,000 sterling wo would probably require
to meet the expenditure on carrying the Canadian Pacidc
Railway to completion. They, of course, said that a 3|-
per cent, loan would not bring as high a rate as a 4 per
cent. ; but thoy gave as their reason for suggesting that the
loan, to bo issued last autumn, should be for ton years at 4

-%*

"■

por cont. thill ii vvoiiM oriablo us to exchange them for 5 per
cout,, and the probubilities wore that whoa the ten yoarn
had expired and the dobonliireH wore rodoomable wo could
roplaco thorn by 8| por cont. dobonturos oarly at par.
That wuH their idea, and therefore they su<?j^oitod a loan
for a short period. The matter was left in that position
with the understanding that I siiould cable ihom or com-
municate with them whenever a desirable opportunity
otfored to place on the market the £2,000,000 sterling, or
$10,000,000 for ton or twenty years— wo had not fully
decided on the period, but they suggested ten years. In
the meantime a proposition came from the Canadian
Pacific Eailway Company to deposit $16,000,000 and in
February a further sum of $4,000,000 on account of the
proposed guarantee, and 1 at once communicated to the
agents that this propoi^al having been agreed to, the matter
would stand over for the present. We thought under those
circumstances we could use a portion of the $10,000,000
and the $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 to bo received on the Ist
February, in the redemption through the agents of the 5
percent, falling due in January next. The matter remained
there; and I may hero add that after I camo from England,and
after conference with my coiloaguos, it was decided, having
made a pledge in tho House last Session tiiat if a loan were
necessary during tho year in order to meet the exigencies
and re(piiiemonts of tho people of Canada who required
as executors of estates and trustees to make investments,
we would float a loan hero for a limited amount-
to place a $4 OOO.OOO loan on tho market and that tho
minimum should be nar, Roforencas have been made out
of the House and in tho House to that loan, those made
out of tho House, I will not say those made in tho
Hou^e, being made with a view of damsging the credit
of Canada. But what are the facts with regard to it?
Tho tacts are these : That hon. gentlemen opposite know
right well that the only loan we have placed on the Cana-
<lian miirkot down to 1880 was at li por cent. ; that in 1880
or 1881 it was decided to call in those 6 i)er cents., and
we stated to tho parties who held them that they could
either have 5 p.-r cents, or their money, and only a
portion of the amount was taken in 5 per cents. And
this last loan is the first loan over floated by tho
Government of Canada at 4 por cent, or a shade less, as
this was. It maj'- be said that it was a great mistake to
place that loan on tho market without being quite sure the
whole of it would be taken up. It was not ottered, because
there was a piessing want of the money. There was no

prrnH^^^^ '''. "1^''"''^ ^""^ "" '"'^" "^ « '«^« rate than in
Knghind except to meet the domandH to which 1 have

relorred, which the („)vornmont were plodtrod to do; and
there could be no doubt wo could have floated the $K}00 000

rmblj followed in England of making certain allowunccB to
broko,H and paying percontogos indirectly to pa.t.eHtondor-
n^ ui tlio bondH; wo wore tipproached on that iubjoct.but we
either pa.d any party in the nlmpe of a nyndicat.., nor
gaveany commissions nor paid any brok.-rago. Tno brokers
UHked a crrta.n commission and wo declined to give it, but

Wn h .r,".r'" ' '"'''■ ? ^"fe'"fe'^''r"^ ^" J^ominion inves'tors.
Wo had taken up nearly every Dominion security payable
in Canada. We had taken up the Mxes, the Jives'; and the
only debentures that remain now arc the Savings I ank lives
which arc payable in a year. Many ot those whu were tniste^
o estute^camelo us within the lust year or eighteen montl?^
akng foPHecuritiosof this kind. The Government had
pledged themselves, for 1 had stated in the House that when
a loan was necessary it would be placed in our own market
and among our own people. When ihe loan was offered we
found that many of them had placed their money i'banks
-IdonotlaowatwhatratcUinterist. The bJnks found
Jt in their interests to urge their depositors to allow this
money to remain. Therefore wo have not placed aslrge
an amount as was expected o; the loan. 1 had anpU^
cations from England as well as from the United Slites
One was from u firm in Eoston-Blake, Bros. & Co -no

w.n?H ?"'fl^ ^f:r\ f "^^ *^'^"- ^'-'^"^ '^ 'PO-^ite, but they
wanted to float the debentures in the American Market. I
Sciid no, these securities are hdd for Canadian investois and
If we had sold four million instead of one we would have had
wrnfa eZt'^r investment lor the money. Therefore it
was placed at 4 percent, premium in the mtantimo • but if
we find that this is more! than our secuiitics bW in .Vo
English market we may reduce the rate, fending that
necessity, however, we felt that it was best to kein^them
where they are. and we told the applicants that they were
held for investment in Canada, and not out of if and fir
tlie purposes which I have stated, a.,d to which we hud
pledged Parliament they would be devoted. Umler U eso
circumstances that loan can. ot bo considered V fail r«
because it was placed at a lower figure tiai we llav^

■ 5'

ever obtained money for in Canada.

Wo now receive

raoney, ,t is true, in the sa^ings banks, on call, for
which we pay 4 per cent. It may be asked were you acting

I call attention to one or two facts which though they are

1»

npplicablo to Iho diHCUHHion of the guanintoo by tho Cana
diun Pacific Kuilwiiy Company, did not coino up in that
dlHciiH.sion, though, I thou^'ht, it miirht bo Hinted hy hon.
^ontlonicn oppo-ito, that wo might havo ol)tiiinoJ m()noy on
btittor teriiiH in Kni^liuKl. Taking rnoiioy at pur- in Canada,
tho iiitoioht and jnincipio paid horo, in as goxl tin at "J oi* 2\
promiuni in i-liighmd. Tho ex- Minister of Financo kni)W«
pcrf'oclly well tliat when v/o go into that market and a«k
tonder.s fur a largo Hiim of money it i-* done on tho wholo-
8ale principle. Ho known perfectly well that the
difl'eronco l»et\veen every <lay ralOH ([uotod for tho small
lot», and what tho Govornment realizes from large loans in
about 2 per cent — that in tho Government icalizoe
about 2 per cent losw than the figHres given in those quota-
tionH. That ix genei ally tho case ; but in addition to that,
Jet mo HJiy, that we havo to pay 1 per cent. i)romium, and
for a large portion one quarter per cent brok<.'rago. For
debentures lunrdnif thiity yours, ono-h ilf per cent, is paid
to tho Agents as commission for the j)ayment of coupons, and
amounts to over oncdi;df pi.ir cent, during that period.
Those amount to \^ per com. Then tho dirt'oroiico between
having our money lieri', paid into our own Troasurr, and
having it paid in England, and transmitted here i.; equal to
three quarters of 1 per cent, more, and therefore there iu a
ditFeronce between obtaining the money hero at jiar
in preforence to obtaining the money in Englan.l,
amounting to 2 per cent. Thorefoi'o we felt justified in
naming par as tho minimum ; atid wo fell ourselves justi-
fied in a financial point of view in lakitii; tho m)nev a'. 4
per cent, from the Canadian Pacific Kadway. Wo folt
if we could obtain $4,00. -,000 at p;ir, jve\[ and good, but
to givo it at less than par would bo to place it at such a
rate that it would not bo in tho interests ot tho country to
dispose of it. We aie therefore h')liiing it for ilH original
purposes, tut if it is found to bo dosirablo or necessary wo
may placo it at a lower rate. Now, what was ouf))osilion ?
Our position last auiunin was m >st favourable. Wo h:td re-
duced the amount of the bonds of Canada in tho hands of
capitalists in England, to the oxtont of 810, 00(),0i)(), between
187!^ and 18-^3. We havo not been comiiclled to go into th«
English market tor a dolhir since 1871'. The fact, of our not
requiring to do ho gave us, of cour-e, a favourable po-ition
in the money market. Then, as 1 stated here lad Sos.sii)n,
tho chances weie, that beyond placing the loan on tho mar-
ket for £2,0U0,000 to meet tho £2,000,000 sterling wo were
redeorning or had to reileem this year, tho exehango of th«
debenturea at 4 per cent, for the 8iL>,00u, 000, after deducting
2^

tho Hi'nUing fund fulling duo next Juiamiy—veo wore ;^oin^
into tho murkotHimi.ly lo cxi-luingo hecuriUoH nitlior than to
at*k fur now loanrt. Tlio rcsulL ha.s Icon that fromonr HurpIuH,
from our inipKived credit, tho HcciiriticH of Canaila Htaiid
to-day from 3 to I per cont.higlior than those of Now South
WuIoH, which U8od to ho 2A j.or coiit. above Canada. Now, I
amfrco toadmit that thoohliyaiiotis wliich wo havoundorta-
iton by tho mcuHuro whii h has ii-dt punned this Uouae, will
of course, compel uh to go into the Engli^ll market for more
money than wo othoiwiso would have required. When wo
made arrangomentrt with our agents for the exrlianging of
Hocuritio-, they agreed not only to redeem but to place the
now bonds for £2,000,0ii0 at one half pur cnt., wherouH
under the old arrangement it would have boon 1 per cent,
for redemption and 1 per cent, for j)ayment. TIiIh in a fav-
oui-ableai-rangcment and will Have us a large ^^^m of money.
The probabilities aro that owing to tho rapid progresH of tho
work on tho Canadian Pacific Railway, wo will have to go to
the Kngli.h market within a year lor £3,00(),0(»0 on a thirty
years loan. It may be desirable next year to provido£3,000,00()
sterling by a short loan of seven years, which will fall duo in
1891, when the advance becomes due and payable by tho
Canadian Pacific Kailway. Hon, gentlemen opposite may
say that that will be somewhat embarrassing, considering
that we have 82D,0()0,00() to redeem on the 1st of January.
It may, or it may not. Much will depend on the state jof
the money market ai the time; but we aro in this position :
That if it should be found desirable to do so in tho interests
of the country, as the debentures which mutuie on the 1st
of January next aro not al),>olutely pa^-ablo on that date, wo
may avail ourselves of our optiun and allow their redemp-
tion lo stand for another year, and it is for this reason among
others that tho Government exacted from tho Canadian Paci-
fic Railway Company a i-ate of interest which would place
them beyond all chance oMoss,and with probably a very con-
siderable gain. Now, Sir, that is our position, financially, on tho
other Mdeof tho Atlantic. Our credit has not been damaged.
Our credit, as 1 sny, was never better than it is at tho
present moment, and never has there been a poviod in the
history of the country when we could go to tlio oM roun-
tiy to obtain a loan for the completion of ihe Canadian
Pacidc Railway on more favourable terms than we can at
present. Oui- interest last year was 82i)t),(;0l) loss than it
was in 1880-hl, and in another year or two, at all events,
we shall redeem our 5 per cent, debentures for others
b^r'-iPi;: 4 percent, or loss, and wo are in a position to st.ito
tu f.'ajlia'rint that even with tho engagements we havo
rr^ao''.-, tl. maximum net interest which was paid in 18t0-8l

will not 1)0 cxftu'di'il wlicn tluH groat work "m c 'luplclcd.
Well, Sir, llicro wns iinothor ohjoction. Wo woro loM
Ihiit tlio Turiff would docrcaso our trndo with (Jriul
Hritain. I <l() not doHirc, Sir,— hoc ujho I tliink it would
lio iin tiiitiiir ^v«y of doaliiij; with t!ii« quoHtiori — to
nhirk ni(H)tiiiLr »^voiy ol)jc('t'.on wliii h hun hcoii taken
ugninst thiH TarifT" year al'tor yonr I prcMmU i ho fuels and
f,laco Ihotn on rcc'ord, ho that wo may hnvo u monns of
i\idginj; for oursclvoH, your aftor y<far, as to thoir vuluo.
'Now, Sir, hu> it decroMhed tho trodo with England and
incrcuscd tho trndo with tho IJtnttMl States? Lot me
^'ivo you a few factH. In 1870-77 our importu from
tho IJnitod StatoH ontorcd for consumptioti wore 851,'$ 12,669 ,
from Groat Hritain, 83Ii,572,2n9; making a ditroronoo in
favour of tho United StatoH of $11,740, 4:}0. In 1877-78 our
imports from tho United StatoH, ontorrd for eon-
Humption, woro 848,fi.3i,73n ; from Urcat Ihitain,
8H7,431.180; making a ditforerco in favour of tho
United States of $11,200,559. In 1878-79 our imports for
conMimption from tho United Slaton were $4:{,7.'5!'.219 ; from
Groat Britain, 8:i0,9!)3,130 ; making adilVoronco in favour of
the United StatcH of 812,846,0^9 In 1882-83 our imports
for conHumption from tho United States wore $r)6,032,333 ;
from Groat Britain, 852,052,468; making a difference in
favour of tho United States of $3,979,865, againstan average
difforonco of 8 '2.000,000 in tho previous year. Now, Sir,
it may be said by hon, gontleraen opposite that tho incroa^'ed
imports durimcr'tho last year or so are in greater propor-
tion ir-om tho Uiiitod States than from Groat Britain.^ 1
admit that tho ])roportionato increase from the United
States was greater lant year than formerly. This was duo to
exceptional circumstancoB. Just lot us look at the imports
into British Columbia and the North-Wost Territoricn during
tho last year from tho United States in connection with the
construction of tho Canadian Pacific Railway. Tho increase
of the imports from tho United States into those two Pro-
vinces of tho Dominion during the past year as compared
with tho vear 1881-82, was soTiolhing like $9,000,000. As I
stated before, tho duly paid by the Canadian 1 acific Kiii -
way Company on imports of locomotives and rolling stock
from the United Slates during the past two years was nearly
81,000,000, showing that that Company alone must have
imported 84,000,000 or 85,0(i0,000 worth of articles of that
exceptional character from tho United States during that
period. You will also fin i, if vou trace tho increased ira-
ports from the United States during the past year, that a
very largo amount consists of cattle which have been taken
from tho United States into our North West coun-

try for the grazing companioH. But, Sir, these items
are excoptiocal, and the tigurcH I have driven show that
the diflorence in the imports from iho two countries
has been largely in favour of Groat Britain. Now, Sir, I
Wiuii to httite further the aggregate traile with Great
Britain — ihe toial imports and export— was in 1879
967,288,848, whereas in I88;-{ it was S0y,mT.0H4, an incrc»H0,
in that period, of S3i,'J08,83(i. The ttggiegato trude with
the United Statcvs in 18?9 was 870,!)0 4,72i>, and in 1883 it
was $97,701,or)(), an incroa>e of $2t),79's;i;-"^f>, "h iiy-ain^t an
inci'oaso of BBliHOO/JUO in our jiggr(>gatc trade with Great
Britain. Lot me state further that tlio incrciiHed dn'ies on
the imports f I om Grcnt Britain, under llie new fMiill'. are
'2^^(f per cent., wliile on the imports from the United States
they are () per cent. ; showing 'hat the aj-plication of the
TarilT has not been against Enghmd and in fwour of
the United Statc>, hut, on the whole, larirely in favour of
trade with EngUuid as compared with theUnitcd States. Now,
Sir, another statement made was that by tiie impo-i!ion of iho
duty on bread.-tuils, we would muteritjlly interfere with the
transportation of foreign }U'oduce throng!) Canada. I recol-
lect that the hon. geritloman who took his seat in this House
yesterday (Mr. Mills) argued th's point at considerable
length. lie ende'.>voui'td to show the advantage that we
possessed in havii/g Ihcso exports j as'^ ihiough Canada,
in the shai)e of bu^irioB-^ to our railways and employ-
ment to our people, and he uigod tliut the elVectoftho
duty on bread-stulls would t)e very dainaging to Canadian
industry in every way. Now, I IidUI in in}^ hatid a state-
ment furnished by the Custonis UcparUutriL of thi; value
of the produce exported from Car-ada, not the produce of
Canada, for several years, which i> :is fwlluws : —

1876. <!.6,417..'iOa

1^77 fi,74«,G"4

1878 9,&5fi,24R

1879 7,t;i8,4i2

Sl9,638,8i8

1880 12.462.48G

1P81 1 ,1 7,79'*

1882 . 0,(J0'^,2-^;i

1883 8, l.i(i.,-!G';

$J8,799,881

In 1882 there was a general falling off in the expoi'ts from
every port o i the eontipent. This gtatemort f-liows that
the averai'-e annual e.Kpnrt of fireign u'oods from Canada
during the four years fr'>ni 1870 to 1879 wavS
$7,409,71-, while duiinLC the four following years,
from i880 to 18S8, it amounted to S"i,H9!),!)71--a satisfac-
tory answer, in my Judgment, to fiioso gontlcmcii who

entortainod f^}avi^ on this subject. Now, Sir, it was also
ar^ncii th.-it thiH Tariff, if it proved to be a protociive Tariff,
could not b ! a revenue Tariff, and if it was a revenue Tariff
ie would tail as a protective Tariff*. Well, It has ])roved
to bo a roveriuo Tariff'; that hon. j^cntlemon oppo><ito will
not uiidcrtalio to deny, for they con^plain that it has <jjivon
too much revenue. Lot us t-ee, liien, what evidence we
have that it has encouras^od the manufactures ofthe country.
Two years iVj,o, wo had two ^'entlemon employed to visit
the manufacioricrt of the country, in order to ascertain if
higifslation was noct!Ssary to protocit the laliourers iu
factories. They iritthered from a poi-tioa of the manu-
factorien; of the D;)minion a certain amount of infor-
mation most valuable in its character, showing the in-
creiised products of these JuanuiacLuiics, the incroii.sed
numbered of persons employed in them, and the in-
creased amount of wai^'es paid. We have (in various
occa-ions ])roduced certain intbrmation which we think
cannot be controverted, and 1 follow the same course
now. Take, tor iu-tancc, the arti(de of raw cotton. We
can ;r'vugc very cori'oclly the fjUantity ot cotton manufac-
tured, Of its iiicroased mainilacturo in the Dominion, from
thcBO return.^ because cotton is not produced in the (Country,
and IherefoKi the imports of that article will yive very ac-
curately its increased nuuiuiacture. In 18/7-78, the imports
of raw cotton were 7,"24:-5,4l3 ibs. ; in lK78-7!:», they wore
9,7.1t»,7(fi il)s. ; in 1881^2, 18 127,3-';-! ihs; and in 1882-83.
27,3.')3,41U lbs. That shows p'-etty clearly that the TaritT
opeiates !is a ])iiiiectivo Tariff or as an otK'Oura.;.rin<^ Tariff".
Hon. u;enlleuien o])]iosi!ivvi!l, perhaps, say thiit it is now
too highly jfrolectcd, cau>ing over-pioauclion, _ though
they helped to induce many perhons to go into ih'st iitdustry
by irtatif.g on the tloor of Parliament that it • aid the par-
ties who had investments in it at GO per cent. Tlie imports
in wool in 1877 and '78 Mmounted to (;.330,08-t Ib^. ; in 1881
and '82, they amounted to 0,()b2.757 lbs. ;iu 1882 and '83,
to l),82i,10-i lbs. That gives a pretty fair in iex, thr.ugh
not 'so clear as in the "case of raw cotton, because it is
pritty well underf«tood that an increased quantity of our
home uiovvn wu.l has been coiisumed in the man facture
of woollen goods in the past year. Still there is an evident
large increase in the importaiion of wool of a quality not
I'rown in Caiuida. Hides and pelts were imported in 1877
and '78 to the value of $1,207,300, and in 1882 and '83 to
the value of §1,1'01.74-1, showing pretty clearly there has
been a larij:e extension in the manufaciure of leather ot
various kinds. The increased vaiuo of machinery imported
is hhown by the' following return : —

Value of Imi^orts 187S $438,037'

" 1879 40,3800

" 18>0 503, 85S

'< 1881 1,022,518

«« 1882 2,191,446

M 1883 2,757,570

This in undoubted evidence of the increased developmenii;
of our mnnnfacturing industries of various kinds. I i-aw
it Hinted in the leadinc^ organ of the Opposition, whei this ,
statement was made by one of the papers on tho Govern-
ment side that ii was an indication that tho Taritf had
failed to oncourngc tho manufacture of machinery in
Canada. Well, I wrote a few letters to ])artieH in Ontario
on this aubject, who wore engaged in the manufacture of
machinery, and then, answers were most satisfactory.
They are rather long to read hero, but one establishmeut
said its production had increased by $238,000 in the four
years ; and the others all said that they had a laigc
increase, from a third to a half— some doubled the num-
ber of employees — and they attributed this increase to the
policy which established manufactures in the country, thus
creating a demand for [machinery they had not before.
With reference to my own Pi'ovince, there is a firm
largely engaged in the manufacture of machinery there.
I did not write to this firm, but I know an application
was made to it from tho Department of Marine and
Fisheries to do some work, and the manager replied
that he was so full of orders that ho could not tender for
the work required by the Department. In all parts of the
Dominion, there has been increased production of machinery,
and machineiy that could not be obtained here has been
imported during the last year to tho extent of $2,757,570,
showing pretty clearly the extent to which manufacturing
industries have been increased throughout tho length and
breadth of tho Dominion. Take also the article of coal. It
is quite true the consumption of coal has been increased
by tho development Oi our railway traffic, and we
know that it has been considerably increased through
this cause within the last three or four years. In
1878 the imports of coal amounted to 892,446 tons, and
in 1883 to l,(;8(),(n7 tons, showing an increase of 719,791
tons while the increased consumption of Canadian coal in
1883 over 1878 was 700,000 tons making a total increased
consumption of 1,493,171 tons over 1878. It is quite clear
there must he some cause for this increased consumption
beyond tho increased requirements of the railways, and
all understand this to be tho greatly increase number of
factories driven by steam. It is not denied that the
increase in factories established throughout tho Dominion

has been very great indeed. Thin is ilio evidence 1 liave
adduced to hliow ihiH policy has been not only a protective
policy in its encouiaj^einont tomanufai-lurini^induHtiiCB but
it has also been a revenue producing policy. It was said
the Tarilt' would not bunetitliio coal indasiiy. 1 OHtimated
in lfe79that in four yearn the increased ou!i)Ut, of coal in the
Dominion of Canada would bo 4()0,0()0 tons; and the returns
I have received from Nova Scotia, though ihoHO are not
quite complete, and thoHO from Britinh Columbia thow
clearly that the increased out])Ut of coal, as compared with
1879 for the last calendar year waw 2M0 torn a day, for
every working day, or a total of nearly 700,000 tons of an
increase. That, 1 think, is an answei-, and a forcible answer
to the fears entertained and the opinion expressed by hon.
gentlemen opposite that this Tariff would be of no service
to the coal industry,

Mr. CHARLTON. What proportion of the increased out-
put is from British Columbia ?

Sir LEONARD TILI.RY. Not much; it is mainly from
Nova Scotia. Now, we come to two or three pet industries that
have been pointed out by hon. gentlemen opijosite as indus-
tries encouraged unnecessarily by the Parliament of Canada,
as industries that have been pampered by an unnecessarily
protective Tariff. I refer more especially to the cotton,
woollen and sugar industries. With leferonce to the cotton
industries, I think that hon. gentlemen who were in the
House in 1879 and in 1880, will recollect that it was sau
by hon. gentlemen oi)posite that the capitalists who had
invested their money i.. the cotton millsof the country were
receiving enormous profits, at the expense of the mass of the
people. That was the statement. Now 1 am not quite
Huvl from what has taken place that these hon. ger^tlemen
will not change th.ir lino of argument and say that this
Tariff has been destructive to the cotton industry that the
men who have invested their capital in '^ Y^^ /'^.^^.^^^^f^;!!^';
tal, and that the public, the consumers, will ob air it le o. no
benefit from it. 'Ihat probably may be the line taken, Im^^
whatever may happen in the future, my impression is that
though cotton stocks have fallen cons derably f^-om what
hoy were a year or two ago, it will be found that the djn-
dends which are beingpaid are f'^'^und reasonabk a^^^^^^^^^^
the nrices paid by the consumers of cotton in Canada aic
less KaV ban they wore in 1877-78. 1 am pvcpaied to

Sn:lrihartbeg^y cottons --"i^^f-^iv:; ^ ^':^

nion to-day are sold by the manulacturers at p ices as
low"ifnot\. percentage beluw what the mm.e article is
sold for ill M.as>acliusetts to

men in

traile there.

2«

With reforenco to other cottons, the statements that I
have had are that, deductin<i: the expense in bringing
them hero, the cottons are sold to the consumer to-day
at about 10 per cent, abavo the price in the United
States. Thoy are buying both grey and bleached cnttons
to-day for less than thoy could buy them under the
Tariit'of the hon. genllcmnn opposifo of 1877-7S. It is true
that that industry h;.H experienced difficulties; it is true
thstt many of the parties who put their capital into the
companies fof the erection of cotton mills incurred liabili-
ties beyond tfie extent of th.>ir paid up capital, and. when
the mill was iini.^hcd, as a rule— I know it is so in several
cases— there was a debt upon th'^ mill and thoy had no
capital to woik it, and the result was that thoy had to
obtain as.jirffauce iVom outside, and that assistance was
rendered them as long as il, was possible for the party who
undertook to render il to grant it'. But there was a limit
to whi(;h oven the stronirest financial man in the Dominion
of Canada could go in that i-ospect, and, when the amount
of discounts in the various banks of Canada on cotton acooun*
hud reacluvi n very largo sum, and that they could not
be ext,>ndcd, a difllculty aroso. Thoy had been manu-
facturing more cotton of a particulai- lino (greys) than
thorc was demand fin-, which incivasod xheir difficulties.
A panic occurred and tho roc^ull was a depreciation of
cotton stocks— and it has to a certain extent continued
down to ! ho present time, it became necessary, in order to
diminuh the stock on hand of a ccrlaiii classW goods, that
the number of employes should be reduced, in 'order that
their operations might be put in a hoalthv condition. ThoH,
when Uv.it boc/nno necessary in order to right nm tiers, what
WHS said ? The lumbermen of tho countrvare diminishing
this yoar their output, bo.-anse tlvu-e is a largo stock
on hand ; but has thoi'e boon anytliing s:.id anywhere against
their doing so? Has th-Mo been any .'ompfaint from any
quarter m rofeivnco to it ? Has the' wisdom of their course
been qiK-HtioneJ at all ? No; but the vorv moment a few
hundred oporativos in a cotton mil! were out ol(,mp!oyment
for a month there was a cry through the country that the
JNational Policy was a failure, that this pampered
imJusiry was ir-i a desperate condition, and Wiis in this con-
dition ;is the result of the protection that had boon <nven I
am prepared to say hero to dav that these inhist/ iof thourrh
they are in difficulty f„rthe w.ant of capital- an<l tiiat is iTio
main cause— are placing thomselves in such a position that an
occurrence such as took place la^t Mimmer will not
take place again. They arc arraniriug lo have diversified
manutactures. They are arranging that this surplus stock

«hall not occur again with referoaco to any ouo yjarticular
clasB; and, as far as I can loam, the dividords paid by
many of those companies, under tho.-o circumfitancos, have
been very fair indeed, and the only complaint of the stock-
holders is that they do not go into their packets, but iu;o to
pay liabilities. Never mind; they got the benciit of
them. But, vrhilo I believe these industries will pay and
are pajing reai-onably at the present moment, the point I
want to bring out is this, that the consumer is obtaining his
gooflfi, the clothing that he requires, the cotton necessary
for himt^elf'and his family at a price les;s than he would
have had it under the Tariff of the hon. trcntlcmun Ojiposite.
Now, the next pot industiy was the f-ugur industry. It was
stjid that huge fortunes were beifg njado out of that. I
should not wonder now if wo were told by the gentlemen
opposite that the jirotecticm we gave them has encouraged
the construction of so many sugar rotinerics, that there is
ruin before them as well,
Mr. .MILLS. Hear, hoar.

Sir LEONARD TILLKY. Well, that is their business,
not ours. But I saw the dividend dcchued the other
day by a company that was not voiy fortunate in its outset,
I speak of the Halifax Refinery. Jt was not a very largo
dividend, but they declared a dividend, and 1 have reason
to believe that the other reilncries are paying a fair and
reasonable return for their outlay of capital. The trouble
now with hon. gentlemen opposite will bo that they are not
getting :;0 or 10 pt^r cent. ; there would then bo a grievance
in reference to this matter. What is the position in which
the consumer is placed to-day ? It was said that the consumer
would pay a largely increased price fortho sugiir he con-
sumed. l"think i am in a position to state that, at no period in
the history of Canada, lias the consumer of sugar had it at as
low a ])rice as he has obtained it during the past year, and
1 think I am in a posilion to state further that, had tho
Taritt'of the hon. gentleman opposite been in operation
during the la«t year, tho consumer would hava paid under
that TaiMtf m.u'o for tho sugar than ho has ptdd during the
past year. There are many persons opposed to this Tariff^
who are under tho impresHon that the manufactured goods
to which 1 have rel'errcd, cotton and sugar, cost more
than they did under the Tarilf of 1 877:78. WoU, it is quite
natural that many persons, rending tho Opponiion papers,
should get that idea, but i was very much surprised thai
a leading statesman, who should bo thoroughly posted on
this subject, was himself mistaken with reference to the
matter. I refer to my hon, frioud, if ho will allow me to

■ali him HO I ho mombor for Uaxt Yoi-k (Mr. Mackon^iol
Ir, n speech ho delivered in Seoth»,d-[ do n H I now Tni

"„i:s f ™p°'''°''-''« ■" -ported to ha™' i;'x 111'

1' nrther on ho Hays ;

ho uentlemen present on that occasion, and s^me of hem

cent, dilterence us between raw sutrar 5i,.h ,.^2 -^ . ^
j)arod with the Tariff of lV«^ 4 ^ ®^"?'' '^""'-

<i.^ .' " ''' tnat, if the value of siuyn- i/>

Ipiliissiili

evep. ,.,,„„ thaf^Srwaf-n'ot' -' !. 'oa^ a/il";:';"' :'
H^nt All „„g„,. iH cheap, I ad.nit; bat ovm, wi h tboC
pnco ol raw Bumir under the TaiiT of laic , i.

^: pH^i;'!^^/^^^ 7ear,t.7^r\,:;;^^, "s:;;„^

•inofh., ; r 1 ^ -1 ^'^"^ '^'^'^ reference to woollen .roods

tax o';';;'' ,:r ^^^ '^^* ^ri- ^^--^ -.-d that the pos' ';«

DOW u« ' ^^ f- '"^'^■^'i^*'^ <l"^y on woollen ^oods Well
vC- to veur'' oT"'^'".^ that point in this^Iou.^e from
««t, ana 1 think the country ,h coning to understand

that question pietty well. 1 tliinU people understand tbiiL
at tho prttsent moment that woollen goodn njaniifuctiued in
Canada to-day arc sold at a less price tluui they could
have been sold if impoited under tho Tantr of 1878. I
think that is well understood. I think tho poor men, tho
labouring men, the men in moderate circumstancoH, and
even the nch men who wit-h to conHume as good maiiufao-
tured woollen as cun bo made, all ])ay less for them to-day
than they would have paid under the Taritl of lb7.i. New
industries Jiavo been eslabliished in vaiious sections of tho
country; even Prince Edward Islarjd made a most creditable
exhibit of woollen good^ at the St. John Exhibition— that
Province which, it has been said, over and over again, derived
no benefit whatever from tho National Policy. j^Vow, Sir, at
the present day the people know how it operates. It has been
^aid that tho farmer would bo tased and would have no benefit
whatever under the operation of this policy. In 1882 I
entered voiy fully upon that point, and my case was not as
strong then as it is to-day. Then tho bon. gentleman
opposite atked us, as did their organ from month to month
—where is the benefit to the wheat producer of Ca-
nada by your Tariff? Well, I admitted that they were
not benefited 15 cents, per bushel, but they had a
small benefit— 1 placed it at something like 2 cents, per
bushel, and 1 had to admit that it was small. I went on
to show that they had benefits in other directions which
were very important to them indeed— that they hud tho
benefits of let-ter markets— homo maikefs— that they had
higher prices. The hon. gentleman opposite, perhaps, will
take the course today that he has taken on loimer occasions,
and attempt to show that the policy bus increased the cost of
living to the workingman beyond any increase of wages
that is paid him. If he does, i will at-k this House, I
would ask hon. mombors who are cognizant of the facts
to which I retcr, whether the increased expenditure
that we liave to make at present in the co^t of Lving, is nut
laigel} on tho ])roducls of the iai'ni ? I aj/poal to hous^;-
keepers everywhere and ask them whether the increase
that has taken place in tho cost oi living, is not mainly in
tho increased cost of food produced by our iurnier, they
having a better market and getting better prices for their
produce. 1 need not enter into details furiher than to say
that today the farmer has clearly and beyond doubt a pro-
tection of 8 and perhaps 10 cents a bushel upon his wheat,
over and above what he would havewitli the Tariff of 1878,
and receives that additional price. There is no question
about that whatever. And I will venture to say that you
may travel through any portion of the wheat producing

fioctions of Canada, and you will not find a man who
18 producing' wheat who will raise his voice or cast bin
vote in favour of making whofit free— unless, porhaps ho
be a very oKtrome pirty man. But, fio.n all 1 can
learn— and I have had i)rottv good opportuniiics of (ost-
ing public opinion witbin tliy last two or tbioo moiilhs
—the umvorsjil voice of Jlolbrmors and of Liberal Con-
servaiives, is: Don't change tho duty on wheat. That
IS the domand. Well now, Sir, what do they pay in
incr,.a,sod duty? Their tea is cheaper, their coHee is
cheaper, as well as many other articles they consume their
cotton I, assert, is cheaper; their Hugar is cheaper, their
agricultural implements are cheaper-almost every Ihintr
they require is cheaper than it was in 1878, and I am
. satisfied that IS their own testimony. Therefore, as far as
the iiirmer is concr rned, there is no ground for complaint
because he will understand and appreciate the position just
as woll as the hon. gentleman opposite, and at no period in
the history of the National Policy do the farmers under-
staml It better than th.>y do to-day. Now, Sir. we come
to the iron industry that they said was another pet industry
and • hey particularly declaimed against the duty on pig iron
We also gave a bounty to that industry, yet notwithstandinir
the bounty to this industry, hon. gentlemen opposite
stae itisin financial difficulty. Well, that is quite true;
and [ can assert, Mr. Speaker, tliat if they were not in
recoiptot the benefits of a protective Tariff and a bounty
they could not continue to run a day longer. Though w©
require to pay from the Treasury a considerable amount of
money as bounty to that establishment, or to any other
that may be established, the parties who are engaged in it
pay into the Treasury an equivalent to that° bounty:
and li It became a question as to the existence of that
establishment, or the payment of the bounty, it could be
easily settled, becau^e the country would lose all these peo-
ple and the revenue that is paid by this and other industries
connected therewith would bo lost by the closing up of that
establishment, it maybe said by ho... gentlemen opposite-
You have not succeeJe.i in esmblishi.igany new industries
ot the kind, you have scan^oly kept this one alive." VN^ell 1
believe the iron industry the world over is in an embarrassed
condition today; every one knows that. You mav go to
Fen.sylvania, you may go to J'Jngland, you may go^to any
iron country the world over, and you will find the prices
are lower, almost, than they were over before; thorei^ore I
am in a position to state that it is only by tho protection
given, and the bounty that was. paid, that this establish,
ment is kept in existence. We hare had another indi.>-atiou

of tlmt. A comj.ntiy was foimod luHt autumn in Kncland
with acaj),ta of £370,000. Ibr (l,o nmnufaCure of chai-
coaled mm Ilicy aio likely to aocomplJNh .otuothinL' ntill
I have no doubt ij.cir operuiionM are Homowl.ai paralyzed
by the unu.ually low p. iee of iron at i he prc.^eni moment.
Ihereloio it eani.ot be oxpe(-ted that we < fin have pron-
ponly m an^^ j.articular indiiBlry of thi. kit>d when it

iH not in u ilourihlnn^' condition nnywi,cMc else. Well
bir, we come to another, point. Jio„. i^enlUn.er, uuuo-
site Hay: "What have you i„ ,ay w.th relerence to
the argument you have adduced hoio on former ocr«a-
HionsaBto the value of banl< ntocks as an indication of tlie
condition of the country ? What have you to say with re-
lerence to the equulizin^r of the imports and exports— which
the hon oaderot the Opposition )cf,'rrcd to in his Speech
in the d( bate on the Addn^s? " Well, Sir, T s.iy this that
the record hhovvs that with reference to (he bianco of trade
our policy hns had, to a great extent, the ellect we taid it
would and 1 will prove it, But a word or two with refer-
ence to bank stocks. La^t Se^nion of Parliament, as the
hon. ie; der of Oppohition stated, ] made no reference to that
subject as an evidence of the ].rosperity of the country ;
becaut«o I felt at the time that the v;.luo of bank stocks was
at a point beyond which, in my judgment, the ret-ouicesand
rests ot the banks warranted. It arowe from various causes ;
It arofco, ill the lirst place, from men who could not obtain
more than 4 per cent, for the money deposited in banks and
various other iin.>-iituiions Bought to get a hirger return
by inveftting in bank stocks"; and honco this increased
demand. It is true that it had the brokers a ho were enyaged
in these OjXMations hulling the nuirket. and forcTntJ-
stocks above the point which. J believed at the time, and a
great many people agreed with me, wa. b( vorid their real
value. The hon. gendeman (Sir E chaid Cartwright) may
ask as ho did at Lennox three months ago: "What
explanation has the hop. Finai.co M nistor to ofT'or as
to the reduciioM in the value ot bank stocks, which equals
$7,000 000 as compared with the value in Ib82?" Well, I
can bay to him in rej.ly : What has the hon. gentleman to
Huy to the fact that since Parliament met, or since 1st Janu-
ary, the stocks of the Bank of Montreal and that of other
Banks, have largely increa5ed in value. The hon. gentle-
man stated at Lennox that :

"Some gentlemen present knew to their cost that, althoujfh it was
not possible for the Reform Government to add one cent to the value of
their taritt, jdt that h Finance ilinister who did not un krstaud hisbusi-
nees and would persist in acting on hi^ own advi -e couuary to mat of
able men around him, could destroy the maket for their barley by de-
stroying the malt-pruduciug interest of Canada, as air Leonard iilley

hail done tiiodl wiinloiilv. (Hciir, IvHr, ani cl^'ofs.) Tlin course fol-
lowcil li'i'l t)f(m 8iiK>C"^'''l '■o ''ini (Mir liictmrJ), but on enquiry he found
that if lie 3tiirl"il in that diit'ciion ho might give American maltsters the
oiiportiiniiy whicii tlipy hid lo'iK h"en SHrkinvtof usin(?our action for the
iiirpoBti of ot(!iidin(? (Janadian malt. 1I« therefore abstained. Hir
jjoonard Tilley took a dilftirent view. Ho put on a duty, and in so do-
ing rttruck a blow not only at an important Canadian industry, butat the
JnlcrcnH (tf our liailoy growing counties, bocause it was of gre-at import-
ance to farmnrs that, if there should be for a time a surplus of barley, it
sliould be nuiU'jd in our owa country and held over until such time as a
rise in [iricos occurred. Now tlioy wore eutirely in the hands of Oswego
mwrcianti and American maltsters. (Cheers.) • • • Not

long ago till) Fiuancn .Vlinisit^r stated that t^e Dominion was safe for an-
other seven years of uninterrupted prospemy. Scarcely were the words
out of liiH raoutli than the list of ba-ikrupticies began to swell to such
pDportions that the list for 18=i.J would pnwo greater than that of the
worit year of the depression when Mr. Mackenzi was in power."

Tlio B.ink of Montreal stock wa>i tho baromotor of Blocks
gonorally, and that it had f];ono down million.s. The value
of that HLock today is $3,000,000 over what it was on the
Iwt January lu.st. Thin would be evidence, if 1 wore to
follow tho lino ot ar^'uinont adopted by that hon. gentleman,
that bu.sincHH is rapidly itnp'-oving, a conclusion which I am
not disposed to object to. What were the circumstances which
led to tho depreciation in tlie value of bank stocks ? Several
circumstances combined to brini^ about that result, but 1 do
not hesitate to say that the outrageous mismanagmentof tho
K.Kchango Bank had a great deal to do with it. It is quite
true thai; vviion tho tiiial crash came it did not atl'ect terimOr
ally the banking institutions of tho country ; but it alfocted
men siu'king investments and those who held bank stocks
H-t i.ivostmonts, they wei-e led to the conclusion that
as ponn.inent investments these stocks were nob satis-
factory securities to hold. The consof[uenco was that such
persons sought investmiMits elsewhere and placed their
bank slock on tho market, and that circumstance to-
gether with tho ilisLurbed state of tho market at the time
would as-^i-tl t.hi> " l)oavs" to forco slocks below theii' real
value; and thai iudood was tlio result. What was there to
j istit'y that great re luotion ? I have a statement here which
"shows that nine or ton of the banks increased their rest
during last year by Si,78i,000, and still their stock had
de])reJated in value tor the reasons stated. But they are
now advancing, beiiii,'' restored to a figure nearer their fair
value, and 1 am salislied they will reach a higher point
than at present. The existing position of bank stocks does
not tleprive us of tho argument we used befoio, that it was
the satisfactor}' duancial condition cd' the country, that in-
creased the value of those stocks, and they are far higher
to day than they were in 1878, and will go still higher.

After Recess.

Sir LEONA]{D TILLKY. PicviouH to Ucco.-h, Sir, I was
callinpf Iho nttention of iho Houm) lu the sluttmont tlmi
WHH raado out of iIk^ lloui-r l)y the lion, mcnihor for Soutli
Huron, und in iho Ilouho hy tlio lion, luadur of Iho Opposi
lion, roialivo t > liio Muldcn full (liat iuui til<on pluco in
bani< HlockH. I Htutod tiiat the full in Mtocks was of an
oxcoptional characlor, and did not go to provo
that it was tho losulL of a dopro-*.-Hioii m tho
general Irado of tho [)otninlon. 1 think, Sir, that
when I stato that nint-o tho Isl of January
thoHO Hto(diri havo risori on an average ovoi- ton poi- cont, —
tho JJank of Montreal from I79;l to 181), tho Oniario liank
from U»3 to 10()|-, tho Bank of Toronto from Kir),^ to I78.|,
the Moichanth' Bank from 1(»8 to llU, tho Hank of Com-
morco from 118^ to 121j, and tho Federal Bank from 122|
to 13(5 — it will 1)0 (juito rloar to tho Jlouho iliat a tail in
bank h oekH cannot bo claimed as a proof of general do-
proHsion in the trade of tho country. It has arisen, in my
judgment, in part from tho circumHtariooH tj which I ro-
forred. I alfo stated bofbro liccosh that there did nin ap-
pear to be any good or substantialrcaHonh why that fall
Hhould have takoii jihn e, takit)g into account iho addition
to the Rest in tho last year; ana 1 may now jiisi road what
tho increa^e.s in that account were in bovoral of the bankn
during tho la8t year : —

Montrt-al i 250,000

Toronto . 60,000

Ontario 1!0,(<00

Merchants'... 400,000

Commerce i50,()00

Doniuiion 10l',O0o

Hamilton 65,000

Standard 60,000

Federal 150,000

Imperial 'J50,000

Molson'a 75,000

Total Increase $1,770,000

Thia would appear to show that bolwcen 18 S2 and tho pro-
KonLlime, unless (.iomo very e.xtraordinary circuin^tanoes have
happened recently, these stocks should have increased i-athor
than (lecrcascd in value; and [ have no doubt that il will bo
found before long thai tho value of the slocks will be (|uito
equal to what they wore in 1882, when they were probably
nearer their true value than they were, in 188J. 1 mention
this. Sir, in connection with bank matters, to show that
though the stocks had fallen a good deal between the spring

and Iho autumn, Htill thut wuh not to ho uttiibuted Hololy t)
u (JopicHHion in Iho trudo and commorco of Iho country.
Now, I ronio (o iiiiothor point to which my attontion and
tho attontion ot ilio lloiiHo was called in a voiy omphalic
niannor, by tho lion, londor of iho Opposition — in a vory
Barcantic niannor toi», but, at, iho narno time?, in ono that
oliuitod applauso from hin ^u|)|)()l•tt)l•^^. That point wuh that
tho (lovcrnniont hud omphatically and di^tiru!lly stalod that
this policy WUH ciilcnluti'd to hriny iicaror t():;('llior ihun tho
policy Uiat pieviou^ly oxistud ilio valuu ot'im|)oiLrt and
oxpoits ; and ho ([uoiod Homo Htatcmcnls of niino mado
in IHT'J or in ISriO, to tho ottVct. ihsit thcro wan roully
a halaiu'o tlu-n on what I coiiHidorod tho riirlilHido, thut tho
iinpoils of iho country woro loss by a Hniall sum than tho
exj)oit-*, thut ihiH wuh a houliliy ■tiulo ol lhint;s, which it
WUH dcMrablo to continue, and ihut tho [lolicy adopted in
1879 was ciUculated to briiiij tho two, tho exports
and tho importn, nearoi- to>folhcr. Now, tho hon. tho leader
oi tho Op|)()!silion, no doubt, in hiw rennirkH rolerreil to tho
Jact, becauso it is a fact, that tho imports of last year woro
larger than ihoy were iho year l>eforo, and that tho ditfor-
erico bolwoen liio inijiortM and iho OAportH was ^loator than
in the year before and the year |)i'ovious to Uia.. Now, 1 Htill
hold lo iho proposition that, ordinal ily Hpoaking, it in in tho
iiitorost of tho couritiy to incroano our exports and
to decreano our imports by tho extension of our own
manutaclurort. Thiw proposition 1 lay down that if wo can
increase our exports an \ dimiriiHh r ur im|»orts by producing
in tho country artic.loH formeny imported it is bettor than
to import thoso articlos, inasnundi as it ^ivoH omploymont
to tho j)eoplo and more nearly adjusts tho balance of
trade. Jiut circumstances thai have taken (ilaco in tho
last year or two that have increased materially tho inoi-
ports, and there has been no corrospondint; exports to
rneoi that increaso. We all know tho Canadian Pacific
iiailway Company' have expended in the construction of
their road and branches something like 858,000,000 in two
years, wo all know that in addition to that, tho hon. Minis-
ter of liailwaj's has been conHtiucting during tho last two
years a portion of tho Pacific Railway ; wo know that tho
Government have boon importing rails and other material
for tho portion ot tho lino constructed by tho Government
and tho Canadian Pacific Eailway have been importing
Bteel rails, locomotives, rolling stock and other material,
perhaps lo tho extent of 310,000,000 during tho last year.
ThoftO are exceptional circumstances, but Btill, I venture to
Bay, hon. gentlemen opposite will give us no credit
whatever for them in tho account. VVhon wo tako

into c, msidonition tlie circumstiinccs of tho Imt yoor
or two, wo cunnot ox poet anything,' oImo l)tit an inorcoso
in tho (lill'oronco botwoon liio imports and iho oxports,

bc(

t;:l

ito

I ll

■ailKO, t.iiiii^ fiiui iiccdijriL an mo murn'y iiuiL canio
int') the Norlh-Wosi fnv its dovtOonmont and imj)rovo-
mcnt. lakiii^' into nci-onnt. ni| tho imports tor tho (Canadian
Pacilic, KaiUvay, all tli«' inipirts l>y tho i-oiiti-ictorH and hy
ll)o (J(»vernrn«Mit with rofluonco to tho coriHtruciion of thin
railway,— what l)avo wo in roturn iti tiio shapn of'oxpoitH?
Wo have) notliing as yot. Thcroforo it i,s iiiuicr tho ox.rop-
tional cdrcumstaticca to whicdi I rolcr thatUio imjorls have
hi'on iiicrouHod as oomparnd with tho oxpoi-ts diiriri-r the
hiMt two years and cspoc'ially during' iho laM, year. Bull
maintain iho facts on record in tho Trade Itjliirns during
lho_ hiHt fivo years show, hoyond dotiht, tin', thiw
policy has broii^fht nearer to^rothor tlio imports and
export H tlian they would have been by tho policy that
previously existed. I will ^'ivo f-omo facts to prove
this, and I will nt;ito theso tads to •-li'tw that, notwith-
Ht'uidin;^ the increu-Jod imports for tho Canadian I'acitie.
and thoCrovoinmont Railways, ar,d tholarifo oxpendi'uro in
tho North-West that induced import-, we have still lir')Us^ht
the balance of trade more in our favour than wo could hivo
done under tho policy of hon. f^eu'lonicn opposite. The
value of im])ort8 per head of tho population in 1^83. not-
withstanding the circumstances I have mentioned, was 8^8.
What was it in 1873, when no ex eplional circumstances
existed ? Jt was 3 VAS)S per head. In 1874 it w;is $:V'.l2 per
head; in 1875, $30.24; in I87H, $22; in 1877, 6i3.2H; and
in 1878, $21.44 per head — or an average on tlio population
of those years <'fSi7. 14 per head; whilo, duiing tne last
foui years, with these exceptional circumstances cxistinEf
which I have mentioned, tho averaa;e has been but $2.S.02
per head, or u diH'erence of $ 10,000,000 per ye:ir in favour of
the latter period. Uui'ing tho last year if the imports per
head of tho poinilation had been tho same as they wore in
1873, we would have had $l.i2,000,000 of imports instead of
$132,000,000, making a ditferenco of $20,000,00t) during tho
year. This establi^hes beyond doubt the effect of the policy,
because there is just about that amount of increased
muTiufacturos in the Dominion during tho yoais to which
I have referred. I took this afternoon as an illustra-
tion, tho value of raw cottons imported. If wo talco tho
returns submitted by tho cotton mills we find something
like an increase of $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 in the manu-
facture of cotton alone ; therefore all the labour and capital
expended, everything connectoi with this industry was so
3i

much .suvod to tho country sind a <liniiiiution of tho importw.
So with rcibionco to all tho manntiuttttrics in tho country
and their productrt. If tlioso gnodn hud not boon made in
tho country thw would hiivo l>con inipoitod, and wo
asU yon, connidorini^ tho ])rospi'rity of tho country
hist year, and as a consoquonco lurtro importations, whether,
it wo had not tho Tardt by wiiich wo have boon ablo to
produce by those intiustrioH, $1 (5, 000, 000 a year more
than wo ]>roilucod in 1870, tho bahincc wouhi not have
been hii',ti;or against us tiian it is? 1^ hold that a policy
which, if it does not increase tho exports, will diminish tho
imports, must have the effects of bringing tho cxp{>rts and
im])oils nearer toujether than wt)uld iiavo another and
opposite policy. J ask whether this has n()t boon suHtained
by those f; cts ? I have dealt with tho loadini^ objections
down to the present time, that have boon made ai^ainst the
policy adopted in 1870, and 1 think that the atisworin 1
havo<i^ iven, taken from tho returns and other public docu-
ments, are sutlicicnt, and tho subject needs no further
remark^ from mo. But Ihoro are some now objections
which have boon mado latel}'. Ono now char<jjo
brought against tho tJovernmont in tho last twelve
months is that thoy have neglected the intcrosts ot
tho founlry by legislating in such a way as to change tho
Icgisltilion in the IJnitod .Stato-i with rolorenco to the duty
on malt, and thus injuring tho jiooplo of Canavia. Why it
is well known that for tho last seven years, there has boon
a conllict in tho United States between tho maltsters and tho
browora. Tho maltsters have been endoavouring to obtain
an increased duty and to shut out tho mult ti-om Cu'^uda.
Thoyfiilod in their ondoavouis until tho last Session oi Jon-
gres- when they gained a victoiy over the brewers and
obtained an inci'eascd duty on malt. i5y that operation,
they have shut out a very coiisidorable export of malt from
Canada to tho United States during Uio last year. It is
quite true that a concession on tho o^her haiul was mado
which really is a benefit to our farmerH, though limited,
by taking 5 cents per bushel off tho duty on b^rloy. We
are told the Government of Cannda is responsible for this.
T-et mo roMl an ex'ract from a speeidi mado by Sir Richard
Cartwrjght at Lennox Pome three or lour months ago :

" Some gentlemen I'refsent know to their cost that although it waa
not po?='l)le tor ft Reforoi Uoverument loadd one cent to the value of
their barley "

That is declared by a gentleman who wuis ia tho late Gov-
ment.

"That a I'inance Miaisier who did not uadei'staud his business, and
woula persist in acting on hia own adricc, coatrary to that of able men
around him "

When I read Uiis speech I naid, tbo late Minister of Finanoo
has not Huch a vm-y dopreciato.y view ot tlio gentioinon on
ihisHuiof the Hoiiso, as lHuppoM,d he had. Ho savs— I
undor^iood itH., when 1 roud il tir.l -ihat Iho uenlU.mon
mound mo wore nion of uhilily. ami I n-ould not accent
Ihoir Nii«ri,a'Htion.M. Hut let us mh;.

'' Coi.H d-'Rlny the mnrket for their ba-l"y bv deatrovinff the
nmlt pro.lucmfr iniMvst cf Canada." "■ ' > "J aeguo.ung ttie

r l)o,i,'an to think, who wan il sittini,' aror.n 1 mo of Iho able
men, my colloa-iu-H an.l thoso Hupportinir us, who took
(".xcopl.oii to th(^ hvrishilion whii-h we intrnduood. I could
not recollect any one of my collcnj^iu's or any nuunheron
this sHie of (he IJouso. The -cntloman who did take
exception \yas the ex-Finance MiniHter the prc:-en' -ncmbnr
lor S )uth Huron, and therefore the remark must h.ave
applied to him, as " the able men around me."

" As Sir Lt'otmr-i Tilley had (lone most wantinlv. (Hcfir, hear aud
<li.erfl.) Th. course followed h.,i heea au-ij-.l^d t:. him (Si''S'L"d)
'"VCrr"'^ '"'''"•"'ltt.Ht„ifhe atarte" in ,hat dfrec^^n he nligl l
K.vo An.enuan i.uiltstera the opportuniiy whirl, thev h.i'l long been
HcekiMK of mnkiuis oi.r action the grourui , f excluding Canadian malt.

l,ft in 'I H ""t '^^^'"'"■'''- ^''' ^^'^°"''"' Till'T took a difT.r.nt ou-s.. He
put^on a duty, and, iii so doing, struck a blow not only at an imi> .ptant
(^.inadian industry, but at the interest of our bHrJey-jzmwiriK counties,
because it was of >r,>at import-uic. to farnHTs that, if there should be
.n/i fJ'" " ""■'''",' ^f '""-'^V' '' should h>.' malted In our own coantry,
and held ov.T uiif.l Puch time as a rise in ih" prir-e oecurrea. .Vow
they were entirely in the ha-.ds of Oswego merchants and .■Vmencan
malts teis.

This is the report V)f the speech made in which a charge is
brought against the (Tovernmoi t in reference to thisniat-
\r''- ^^*-'"';'^''"' ' -'f" Juu-e lepresenled as a mo«t obstinate
Minister of Finance. The gont Ionian oppo.site represents
himself in this case as the pliart Minister of Finance. I
have heard the hon. gentleman and his friends ojiposito
speak of the Government, and of myself as Finance ALinis-
ter as being too jiliant, and say that all the people
had to do was to come and ask^that certain concessions
should bo made to certain interoht-, and tiiose conces-
sions were made at once. That is a different charac-
ter, from what is given here. Here I was obstinate and
would not take the advice of able men around mo. And,
Mr. Speaker, the generjil imprf-sion of tlio.-e with
whom 1 have bad jiny conver.-aliofi on the subject since
187S was that that hon. ifontleman opposite was the obstinate
man who would not take any advice, who would not bo
influenced by tiny suggestions that were made. Now, let us
sec; is it a tact that the action of this Government had any-
thing to <lo with this increase of duty on malt in
the United States? No, Sir; none \vhatever; and,

■wh(n I read to this House the effect of the Tariff
introduced by the hou memLor opposite, and of iho Tariff
introduced by this Govoinment, with reference to malt, and
pb')W the rate oi'duly that was collected upon malt when
the change took place, you will see what grounds ihe hon.
mtmbor had for making the Btatemcnt ho did at Ler.nox.
Under Mr. Caitwright'w Tariff of 1878— this is for j)art of the
year— 42,232 Ihs. were imported, the value was $1,3 8, duty
'81,(155.77, or 78 per cent. In 187.% that is, under the
Taiitf pubmitled by this Govcinmcnt, the imports were
12!),(i34 lbs. value $.-J,3 KJ, duty collected g2,r)92.GS or 7T|
per cent., a fraction under that collected in 1878. In 1881
the duty was changed, as the hon. men.ber knows,
arnl mall wms j,ut in tlie ^;arao ]iosition exactly an barley,
the duly b' ing 1.5 conls per bu^ht 1 Customn, and 1 cent per
pour.d Exci.'e. That ha3 been the law irom 1^81 to the pre-
sent tim«j. That was the law that was in force when the
change took ])lace in Congros>. In 1881, we that year im-
ported 10,553 bui>ho]s, \aluo $U',270, duiy collected $5,171,
or a fraction over 50 per cent., agaim-t&'J per cent, thtit the
hon. member imposed. In lt>2-8,^, we imported 15,979
bushels, value Si5,C99, duty ps-id S7,509.93, or a little less
than 50 per cent , and yet tiie hon. nieml cr told them at Len-
nox on the eve of an election — I will not say that it was at
all to affect it, but only to show what an outrageous Govern-
ment this wais and that they should not send any one hero to
support it — that we had dtpiivcd priducoisoi that section of
the country of selling their bailey to the mallMers. and that
their interests were sacrificed, when tlie tiuty, from 1881
to 1883, was 30 per cent, less tl in the hon. member himself
imposed in 1878. Yet, he said »'ewere responsible for that
eliange, and, as that is one of rbe charges which I thought
might ])OSHibly be brought to-night, though I do not know
that it will, I thought it just as well to !-pike that gun at
once. There is another charge, smd a vtiy general one,
made all over the country, to tiie effect that wo have im-
posed a du'y of 35 per cent, upon im|)orts to Canada. That
is the general statement. There are a f( w articles that pay
35 per cent , but we know that last year the average duty
on the whole imports was something like 19 per cent. I
hfid the })leasure of addressing a meeting at Strithroy,
which was referred to by the hon. member opposite
the other night, and the member for Brarit was present
on that occasion, and ho took that exception to the Tariff
policy of the Government. Ho said to the audience,
imagine your sending to Germany and importing a certain
article, and, when it reached tb.o borders of Canada, you are
charged 35 per cent, duty on it, v hat an outrage that is.

Well, T must i-ay that, after roadinf:^ the speech of the
hon. member for Brant in 187H two or throe times, I
should claim him, thou^'h he cfilim himself a FreeTrader,
as one ot the noundeHt ProtoclionistH in the Parliament
of Canada, taking hi^^ Hpeech ahj a criterion, and nothing
oould ho Htron<^op than the way in which, in the extract
I read i'rom his npooch to<lay, ho jnslidod the thou Finance
Minister in imposing an incroanod duty on cigars, wliich
he stated had an excellent result. But I say to him,
and to all such, but especially to him, that, if ho takes
exception to 35 per cent, duty on a limited number of
articles, ho must not lo- get that the Finance Minister, to
whom ho appealed in 187(5 for i'urther concessions, did in
1878 chanye the Customs dutio-t on cigars and cigarettes.
The returns fior 1878 showing the duty collected on 21,050
Oevm.'in cigars, valued at Sl6,(i80, as "Sil2,(i87.I0, or nearly
I'^O per cent. The Fxeiu* duty on this qunnlity of cigars
would have been 88,42;j (ID at that time. The 'protection
given to the manufacturer was Sl,2(;3 50, "i- .ki per cent.
The hon. member was graleUil for a little less protection
than that, and in a yoai- ,or two afterwards ho obtained 40
per cent. protc;tion, and it he says produced wonderful
)'esults; it brought a tliou-:aiid [)eople, even beloro the
change was mtido in 1878, Into the country, and the article
manufactur<'d cost the conhumer no more than it did before.
Still, the h )n. member will, 1 presume, here as elsewhere,
denounce the present Governmont lif)r putting SSper cent,
duly on ariy ai tides of irii])orls. 'i'ho goiieral objecoons that
have been taken with reference to this TavilV have been
largely mot by the rthults. Tiio I'csnl's havo been,
in most (iascs, 'o decrease the cost <.f' the artielo to the con-
^umer, and in m.'iny ciises the inereaNod duty that has been
imposed iipfui it litis enabled the pro lueer, havinirtho market
to himstif to give%) the coisuruer the article cheaper than
ho cculd have done under other c,i cumstances, and cheaper
than he ever had it bofiuo. Ar d so, wtnle exception may
bo taken to the policy which has for its object protection to
the industries of the country, still our friends will bo found
somcitimes even denoun(!itig a policy that is doing just
exactly wlial some of the hon. gentlemen opposite sustained,
supported, deferided, and sjKike of approvingly. Now, Sir,
wo come to the question of the geneial deprccijition of the
country. Lot us f.ec what evidences we have of
that. I admit. Sir, and I regret that it is so, that
the Avheat crop of Canada as a whole was legs
last year than it has been for some years previous,
and this circumstance has no doubt alVeettd, to some extent,
the business of the country during the autumn and the pre-

fcnt winter ; because, had the oiy;htoen or twenty millioiv
buflhols of wheat which we are supposed to have lost by a
sliort crop, been raised, sold, and the proceeds reached the
hands of the farmers of the country, no doubt there would
have been <^i'eater ease generally *.han there is at the pre-
sent moment. But there is this to be considered, that while
there was a deficiency in the wheat crop, there was at the
same time a large surplus in the hay crop, nearly amounting
in value to the loss in the wheat crop, So that while the
farmerri have lost on the wheat crop, their abundant hay
crop will enable them to raise a greater number of
cattle for export next year ; ar d therefore 1 am satified
the general result will bo largely maintained by the
increased export of cattle which they will bo able to make
by having in Ontario alone two and a-half million tons of
hay more than usual —to bay nothing of the increased crop
in the other Provinces. But while I admit that a short
wheat crop has caused a somewhat depressing effect, 1
must also admit that the price obtained for lumber at the
present time is not as groat as it was last yair and the yoar
before. There is also an ovei* stock already on hand, and
people are not manufac uring in certain branches as much
this winter as they did last, and that al'O has had some
effect upon the general trade and business of the country.
There are other circumstances to which I referred this
afternoon — over- importation and over-trading, which have
left the importer and reta'ler with stock-! on hand
that cannot be immediately converted into mouey. These
circumstances .'ilso have a depressing effect. But what
evidence have we beyond this of the c^oneral depression and
stagnation of trade in the country ? Sir, we have undoubted
testimony as to the generally prompt payment of liabilities
falling duo in the banks. We see igty the press that
the bank managers who have been interviewed in
Montreal and elsewhere with leferencc to payments, state
that they are satisfactory; this could not bo if there
was the great depression of trade which hon gontlemen
opposite have been asserting exists, and which thoy have
been pointing to as, in some cases, produced by the National
Policy. These things have been referred to before, and they
show there is no general depression, or suffering, or want,
and no unusual number of peo))le out of employment — not
at all. What are the best evidcnccQ we can have that the
mass of the people are being em])loyed, and that they have
spare funds at their disposal? It is as I have stated over
and over again in this House, the increased accumulation of
deposits in the savings banks by people who have earned
money over and above what they require for their

expenditure or can nno in their legitimate businos.,

to the House-and I do so for the purpose of anawer-
mg a statement made by the hon. member iho followed me
ast Session with reference to the savings banks depo.sits-

.wIh '''''"'^' '?*°.^', '° *^' Maritime Provinces, are con-
ducted upon a principle that was in force there before the
Union. The Post Office Department does not receive

DnrrTfiM^r^o^?'"'''"''^? ""^ ^^ '^^•^^ ^" ^'^^^•■'0 «"d Quebec.
Down to 1879, these savings banks' agents were author-

.zed to accept as much as «10,000 from any one depositor,
andtheresult of course, was a natural temptation acd in-
ducement to busine-ss men to make deposits, inasmuch as
they had interest paid from the day of the deposit up
to the day of the withdrawal of the deposit. But not-
withstanding these advantages enjoyed to 1879, what was
the tact? The fact was that the increased deposits in
these savings banks, and in the Post Office Savings
iJanks throughout the Dominion increased but $2,800 000
during the live years from 1873 to 1878. But what
took p ace after that ? The Government ordered that these
deposits should be limited to $3,000 a depositor in 1879 and
that the interest should only be paid from the commence-
nient of the month, that is, if a deposit was made on the 2nd
of the month interest would only be payable from the Istof
the month fullowing; and if it was drawn on the last day of
the month no interest should bo paid for that month
thus greatly lessening the inducements to deposit
in the savings banks of the Maritime Provinces. Well
what was the result? The losult was that in I879'
these deposits increased over w itbdrawals $710,669 : in I880'
$1,«45,222; in 1881, $4,703,715; in 1882, to $5,931,989;'
in 1883, to $4,450,445, a total increase in five years of
$17,722,094, as against $2,800,000 in the five years previ-
ous, with greater inducements to deposit. It must be
borne in mind that in Ontario and Quebec no one
except at Toronto, has a right to deposit over $1,000 in one
name, and notwithstanding that fact, the increase during
that period was the sum I have named. During the present
year the amount deposited is $1,755,079 greater than the
withdrawals, showing that oven this year there is still
on the part of the masses of the workingmen and others,
an ability to add to their earnings and to their deposits in
G overnment Savings Banks. 1 think there can be
no better evidence given that there is general pros-
perity in the country. Let us go a little further.
The total deposits in the chartered banks on Slst July, 1879
wore $63,84^14.>. On 31st Julv, 1883, four years later they

wore $99,241,325, being an incroaso in that period of
$35,H93,180, and an increase durin/sf the five years of
$53,000,000 taking into account both the Post Office Savings
Bank and the chartered banks of the country. This is evi-
dence that the people aroearning naoney and have a surplus
or they would not be in a position to add so largely to the de-
posits in our banking institutions. The hon. member forBraiUt
(Mr. Patorson) staled last year that this was no proof of
increased earnings among the masses, because there appeared
to be a much larger increase in the '^'" ..'♦^imp Pro^'inces than

-more money had

io and Quebec,
not been in the

elsewhere, and it could not beproter. ; •
been earned in those Provinces than
In the Lower Provinces the people Jiuve
habit of making deposits in the banks and the banks have
not encouraged the payment of interest on deposits, and
the result has been that the spare money of the people of the
Maritime Provinces has for many years gone into the savings
bank, while the chartered banks of Ontario and Quebec
have paid porhapn a higher rate of interest than the Post
Office Savings Banlc, and the people have depoiiited largely
with those insLitiUions. That accounts for the apparently
large increase in the Maritime Provinces as comp.ired with
Ontario and (Quebec . It may be said that within the last
three or four months the wages of employes of manufac-
turers in the Dominion have in some cases been reduced ;
that we have not so many men employed just now as we had
three or four months ago. I am free to admit that Canadian
manufacturers have to day an unusual strain put on them.
And from what cause is this strain ? Every hon. member
knows th'it manufacturers in Great Britain, where the
policy of Free Trade prevails, and manufacturers in the
United States where Protection prevails, have surplus stock
on hand, that they are reducing thv umber of their em-
ployes, that they are diminishing their wages, that they
are compelled to sell their surplus stocks, and the stocks
they are even now ])rodaciiig from day to day at a lower
rate than usual. Those reductions have in many caso-^ taken
place, though resisted by the operatives in both England
and the United States. What is the result ? Our American
neighbours and British manufacturers, owing to their profits
being reduced and the wages paid to their operatives being
now lower than bef )re, come to our market and are sharply
competing to-day with the Canadian manittaeturers. As
the prices paid for labour in the Uiii oJ States must
regulate to some extent the price of labour in Canada, because
if the wages are not about equal the operatives will soon
pass across the line. Our manufacturers found it necessary
to increase the wages here when an advance took place

(

>n tho United Stat
thi

in order to keop their men ; but

Lot n,o ™.y th,. ihit wo cannot obioct to m„ b •, uCK

crodit at homo a,.d nb,-„,,d, to diJiC^;^^ no' ^ tlr
to the ™,uu,y and invo.tinir iboir ,-.,,,rial hZo Z ioT-*'
courago tbo jiooplo of tho count.y by tbo c.ioVol ,i™?,

^' newspa,;e,- Rnpportini. the Admini8tration b-c'u.sc tl orl
were a number of families as there are ever rwter
u. every cU y of the Dominion, widows and those who are

cn.e8 and require assistance. But does 'this compa e w Jh
he cond.t.on of atFairs in lS78-7[) when wo/ine be ofT'ar
.nment and the citizens of Ottawa, wore asked to ul^^cnbe
to buy bread for hundreds of men, who although they were
willing to work, were starvinrr? Is th^f rJ,o /.ael "^
any city of tbo Dominion ? I,f .^d to", .0 , h,- "l °dVn"
1 bavo here a Malcmont made by the Slay, ' of eS

lit" bit r ;To'<!b' t'-i^rr- -^Fi

wa, delivered by the^'^!:*:" oft, '' Opi'^uL"' Tbll
Kenlleman says that the condition of eUt Son has

wonderfully changed •vviihin tho last two j'cars; and lie is
not a Liberal Conservative. And why has Ibat change
taken place? lie paid that two yeais n^'o '200 honnes were
to let, and now they ai'e occu|)ie<i, and ho should know,
because ho is an a^ont for iho nolling and lotting of hoiisoH.
Ho spo.iks of tho mon employed in tho railway (sar whop
and htcel works and dwells in nio^t hopeful torma an to tho
eondiiion of the city ; und all this eonioH from eat-t Londcui
JuHt in advance of tho statement made hy tho loader of tho
Opposition. Wo have benevolont men and W(jmcn in
Toronto, (^tt'iwa, Lon<lon and other ciliew, providing for
tho necessilicts of tho needy; but I auk hon. memboiH
whether anything hai^ recently taken place which will
cjm[)are witti tho condition of attairs in 1877-78.

Several hon. MRMBRRS. Yes; much worse.

Sir LEONTARD TILLEY. \rnch worse ! Then, Mr.
Speakei', it is neL'dh>as for mo to make any further state-
ment. When the hon. i^ontleman riscH in his place and
endeavours todofeatthe policy of the Govei-nment by st'iting
that the country is in a worse p'^sition to-day than it was in
1877 and 1878, with reference to employment for tho people
of tho countiy, T want no further statement to satisfy inde-
pendent men on both sides of the House that these gentle-
men are seeking really some other object than the good of
the country. I am amazed at the statement nf the hon.
gentleman that the country is in a worse state than it was
live years ago ; but if that is to be the line to bo taken by hon.
gentlemen opposite, I wish to refer to tho fact that Sir
Richard Cartwright, who was not then a member of the
House, at the meeting to which 1 have referred, said to the
people, look at the state of the conntiy at the present time :
"Why," said he, '' the bankruptcies this year will b*? in
excess of the worst year of the Mackenzie Administration."
But hnw di^;appointed must the hon. gentleman have been
when he found thatthey only amounted to about one half of
what they were during the three years 1877-78-79, 1 hav.e the
returns here, and they show that in each of those years they
were nearly double those of last year, notwithstanding the
fact that the figures for last year include nearly 2ii0 failures
in Manitoba and the North-West — failures of an exceptional
character, owing to causes which every person knows. We
know that tho spirit of speculation which existed in Winni-
peg, a city of 2.5,000 inhabitants, was such that they were
asking for lots in that city as much as. and more than could
be obtained for lots in the centre of the city of Toronto— as
much in .^^omo cases, as was asked for lots in Chicago. The
hon. gentleman must have known that that was a state of

tiio o her 3.e«r« to which I ^eL l7 T '^"'^'"^^^'^ ^ono in

«ocl darkness before th m r^j"'ro'--nothin^. butlrloom

reason to hope Fvm ht f!. '' >'*^^''' «'"J vvho ^avo mo
l^ent.monts wire, thS [f tffel"' "?"^^''*^« vvhat^lus ,oJ
Je would be Mini«t". of Zun^I «''Ould ever corne ha
PO'J^ ho advocated in 187b' at ^'^ "^.^"^^ «'and by the
}>^^' ^or .South Huron %;.P- f^^"'' *'^''t the hon Lm

- wUlt.U<eadUrert '^', ^Afto r"'^"''^^"^^^ ^^* "-""
antl p.oci.vuie, true to his «v,T ^.''" ®^^''omo opinions
^»Ppo«e he will reoe-u ^il '""'' vievvn on Free T rad . ?

ever for approljon.iaV A, ,?i."""''"=' "» "oason wh^.
'•o^x, a» I ia^e already ,£„??,, ''"^'' "'"=' "or.di^

' *'^'' my answer id now,

4«

thHt tho Nalionnl Policy is more vuUmbloln tho <^l"y«of de-
,,re.Hion than it in -n tho duyn ot prosperity. 1 suy hut thm
kationul Policy, ^vl.ich pn>vi.los omploymon tor ho poo) o
who would othorwi80 bo ullo. will continuo to oHtuhliNh Us

' )utationand CHtahiish it.olf in tho hoartn and atlo.Uons
of tho people of tho Domitdon of Canada. Aih though
I Tal^cM-ot indml it tho lino whioh has boon m-
di:S s^akon by those hon. .^or.tlomon, who .tatcd
this ovcnin- that tho country is in a wm-o poa.-
tion 'ban Tt was in 1878-tbough, I say, I shal re-
mo t It tbi^ lino should betaken, bccaube it is calculated
fodam '0 h^ at the same time, "» spuo of

hose dodarations, in'spite ot; tho ^^-l-'^f '-,: ^'-i;,"^^!^
bo made to-night, or in tho oourso ot the debate iQ
snito of tho artidos which have appeared n the Cana-
di n, American and En^^lish papers, calculated to damage
the credit of tho country, thero are roBOurcos .n the

country, there are vigour a"\P-^«^\;;"' ,,:' nolicv to
tho neoolo of tho country, and there is in this policy to
whicri ro?or that which gives hope ^nd energy to the
^oonle which will place us to a considerable extent above
jS'beyrnd the inlfionce of such spoecdies and s.ich argu-
ments as may be made against the National Policy, in
this Parliament or elsewboro.