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BRITISH COLUMBIA 
 
 FISHERY COMMISSION 
 
 REPORT 
 
 1892 
 
 •- 1 
 
 I LIBRARY 
 
 DEPARTMEfiT OF rrrnnnic:^ of Canada 
 
 
 OTTAWA 
 PRINTED BY 3, % DAWSON, PRINTKB TO THK C^UKKN S MOS'l' 
 
 EXgjlLMJNT MAJESTY 
 1898 
 
 1898.) R 
 
 % 
 
 r (I 
 
 irfiMd 
 

 ■if- 
 
 TABLE OF CONTENTS 
 
 Letter of Win. Smith, Deputy Minister (»f Marine and Fisheries iii 
 
 Report of Sam. Wihnot, chairman y 
 
 Fishery regulations prior to appointment of Commission x 
 
 Fishery regulati(»ns recommended to be ad<»pted by l^tpartment of Marine and 
 
 Fisheries - 
 
 Minutes of Evidence j 
 
 Tnciosures, memo., etc., affecting fishing interests 408 
 
 Final meeting of Commissioners 4.j2 
 
 Minority Report (Hon. D, W. Higgins) 431 
 
 m 
 
 
 f ■ i 
 
KKI'OHT OK iJinriSII COLIMIIIA I'ISIIKHY COMMISSION. 
 
 To tl»t» HoiHiuruMe (^iiAui.Ks 11. Tri'i-Kii, 
 
 Minister <»t' Marine ami Fisheries, 
 Ottawa. 
 
 Siii, I lia\e tlie liunmir to sulmiil the report of tlie Chairman of the Uriti.sh 
 Columhia Fisliery ('onnnission, which contains tlie following,' matter: 
 
 (1.) Introiluotory rt'sume of the ^^lowth of the sahnon fisheries uf the jirovince, 
 with statistics of their (ievelopmi>nt, and values from \K7(\ to |Si»|. 
 
 (2.) Reference to the appointment of the Dominion Superintendent of Fish Culture 
 in ISDO to e.vamine into the salmon fisheries of the Fraser l{iv«'r. 
 
 (3.) Keferoncp to the appointment, hy Order in Council of :.'.'{rd Decemher, 1><9I, 
 of three Connni.ssioners to further investij,'ate .md rejtort upon necessary fishery regula- 
 tions rclatiiifi; to the salmon and other fisheries of British Cohunhia, consistinj; of tin- 
 Hon. I>. W. HifiS'i'S ^Ii"- Sheriff Armstrong and Samuel Wilmot, Ksij., with a brief 
 reference to their work. * 
 
 (4.) The Chairman's remarks in relation t(» the proceedings, and the condu.sions 
 arrived at by the Cyommissioners at their final meeting at New Westminster on the 
 19th March, 189l>. 
 
 (5.) Copies of the Fishery regulations in force in British Cohunbia prior to the 
 apjxtintment of the Commission on the '2'M'd December, 1891. 
 
 (().) Copies of the additional regulations, over and above those just mentioned, 
 which are now in foi-ce in British Columbia. 
 
 (7.) Copy of the regulations as cai'rie<l by the Commission and I'ecommendetl to be 
 adopted by the Department of Marine and Fisheries foi- the bett«'r preser\ation of the 
 salmon and other fisht .es in British Columbia. 
 
 (8.) The minutes of the proceedings in detail, together with the evidence taken 
 under oath from fishei-men, cannerymen, dejilers and others interested in the fisheries of 
 Briti.sh Columbia. 
 
 (9.) Minutes ot discussion at the final meeting of the Connni.ssioners, for consider- 
 ing the evidence and forming a code of regulations thereon foi' submission to the 
 Honcturable Minister of Marine and Fisheries. 
 
 (10.) Copy of the code of regulations so adopted by the unanimous votes <tf the 
 Commissioners or othei'wi.se. 
 
 (11.) Copy of a minority report by the Hon. Mr. Higgins, in relati^in to s<mie of 
 the regulations. 
 
 Respectfully subnutted, 
 
 \VM. SMITH, 
 
 Depiiti/ Jfiiiisfer of' Marine utid Fis/ierifH. 
 
 10c— A.1 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 REPORT 
 
 MR. SAMUEL WILMOT, 
 
 CHAIRMAN. 
 
 (1.) TNTHODIXTOHY. 
 
 The i'e<fulatioii iiiul supervision of tlie fisheries of British Coluiubiu, particularly the 
 very iiuportniit sulnioii tishinj; industries on the Frasei- liiver and other inlan<l waters, have 
 for some yeai-s past Iteen objects of much solicituiletothedepartment, but owing tcja variety 
 of causes the regulations from time t(» time adopted as best suited for the conservation 
 of the.se iniport..nt sources of wealth to the community, have not met with that endorsa- 
 tion and approval on the part of those most interested in their preservation as had 
 naturally l)een expectetl. Delegations waited upon the Minister, and petitions were from 
 time to time received from the canning companies representing the necessity of rescinding 
 or amending these regulations and substituting others, many of them in direct opposi- 
 tion to the recommendations and reports of the local ofticers tif the department in the 
 j)rovince. Hence the desire of all parties for the apprtintment of a Commission to 
 investigate and take evidence on all matters appertaining to the fisheries of the Pacific 
 province, in order that the «lepartment might foi-mulate I'egulations for the control (»f 
 the diffeient fisheries, upon data obtained through an uninterested and unbiassed medium. 
 
 iiefore detailing the work of the Commission which was appointed, a short rcsumt' 
 of the gntwth of the principal provincial fisheries may not be out oi place here. 
 
 The fisheries of British Columbia, ha\e, ever since the first explorers and traders 
 visited the countiy, been noted for their wonderful extent and richness ; and the annual 
 migrations oi the salmon in such immense numbers, up the livers from the sea to the 
 spawiiing grounds, have been a source of never-failing interest to travellers and others 
 who have seen them in countless thousands, during the sunnner months, pushing up 
 stream, overcoming all (»l)stacles, in obedience to that instinctive law of nature which 
 compels them to .seek suitable localities for the j-eproduction of their species. 
 
 From time immemorial the aborigines looked upon the sea.son of the arrival of the 
 salmon as their grand harvest, and immense quantities were annually taken and 
 preserved for use during the interval of winter, and that long period during which, 
 although fish were always present in the streams, yet they were not caught with the 
 same facility as during the great runs of "saw kay," or red salmon, in the months of July 
 and August. 
 
 i i 
 
1 
 
 Tt MARINE AND KIBIIRRIBH. 
 
 XnlwitlistaiKliii^r the iiu|ii'ovi*lt'tit and n>cklt>M.s niodt's nf lisliiiij^r piai'tisHd by tlin 
 Tiuliaiis, iiiul tliougli tlif <|uantiti(!s of Hsli cau^lit by tlx'tn were in th«^ a^)jrc^at<> largo, 
 still, comjjarativtily speaking, tliey wcie very small iiKlecd to the mmilMTs wiiicli foniied 
 the great salinoii runs tliat yearly passed up river to the Hpawiiing grounds. 
 
 following the giadual settlement of the <'ountry, tishing operations, more or lesK 
 extensive, were inaugurated, and the white man's ingenuity tnking the plaie of the 
 crude methods of the Indians, advantage was soon taken of this great source of 
 wealth and food whicli the rivers of the province, and especially the Kraser Kiver, 
 provided at their dooi's. 
 
 At Hrst the market foi' tiiese tisli was much restricted, the settlement Iteing sparse, 
 and the absence of any suitable means of connnunication with the outside world pre- 
 cluded any attempts at export of a product which in <ii"uitity far exceedt-d the 
 re(|uirements of the local demands. 
 
 In the States of the I'nion to the south of the International lloundarv, however, 
 where the same profusion of fish wealth alxniiided, the preservation and shipment of 
 fresh Hsh in cans had lieen successfully accomplished, and the industry of i)reitaring 
 canned salmon and shipping it to foieign markets, had been initiatefl, and was w«'ll 
 under way, with excellent prospects of remunerative success, when in l.'<7<'> this business 
 was established on the Kraser Hivei-, by the erection of two small canneries, whose pack 
 that yfiar aggregated 7,"_'47 cases (one case consists f>f \H one-pound cans). 
 
 From this small beginning in 1876, the salmon canning industry has grown to one of 
 the first magnitude, the pack of salnutn in tlie Province <tf British Cokunbia in the year 
 1889 amounting to 41!>,"J11 cases, representing a value of f 2,4 1 4,f).").*). This was the 
 product of thirty canneries, of which sixteen were operating on the Kraser Jliver. In 
 the following year, 1890, owing to a depreciated market, due largely to the competiticm 
 of Alaskan canneries, the output was not so large, being only 414,500 cases, valued at 
 .'?2,.'i87,r)19, and in 1891, with thirty-eight canneries in operation, of which twenty-two 
 were on the Kraser Hiver, the salmon pack only i ached the total of .'n(>,0r)4 cases, tlio 
 value of which was placed at 81, ol 7,000. . in e olanation of this falling ofl, however, 
 it may be mentioned that owing to a glut in the European market, consecjuent on the 
 large packs put up by the canneries in the two preceding year.s, not as nmny fish were 
 taken as might otherwi.se have been the case. The Kisheries Inspectoi- for British 
 Columbia, howe\er. i-eported that, had the canneries desired to do so, fully n2r),000 
 cases might have been obtained. A droji in the price of canned salmon fiom 12 to 10 
 cents pel- one-j)ound tin al.so lai'gely accounts for the decrease in \alue of the product of 
 1891, under that of the years previous. 
 
 Krom the two small canneries in 1870, employing only about 100 persons, the 
 industry has expanded to the extent that in 1891 there were over 0,500 persons eni- 
 ployetl directly by the canneries, and the number of other pei-sons indirectly benefited 
 correspondingly large. * 
 
 But while the .salmon fishery and canning industi-y is the most important as yet of 
 the fisheries of the Pacific province, they ai-e by no means the only ones of value — the 
 herring, halibut, oulachon, sturgeon and rock cod all being of prime importance, and 
 but awaiting a corresponding development to show excellent returns for the lalx>ur and 
 outlay re(|uisite for their capture and treatment. 
 
DRITIHII COLL'MIMA K'rSHBHY COMMISSION. 
 
 Vll 
 
 I by tli« 
 te large, 
 1 foniuMl 
 
 •«' or l«'ss 
 » of the 
 (lurcf "f 
 
 it sparse, 
 orld pre- 
 H(lt'(l the 
 
 however, 
 pnient of 
 irejiiirinj; 
 was well 
 ; husiiiess 
 lose pack 
 
 I to oiu'of 
 
 1 the year 
 
 was the 
 
 ver. I n 
 
 iiil)etition 
 
 alued at 
 
 enty-two 
 
 cases, the 
 
 however, 
 
 t on the 
 
 fish were 
 
 r British 
 
 (i2r),ooo 
 
 12 to 10 
 iroduct of 
 
 sons, the 
 •sons eni- 
 beneiited 
 
 as yet of 
 iilue — the 
 ance, and 
 iKJur and 
 
 The halibut fishery has attracted considerable attention during the paut twt) years, 
 and valiial)le fishing' Itanks, richly sto<-k«Hl with this connnercial fish have been discovered, 
 and thon^'h not as yet worked with much >ip)ur, considerable quantities have idretuly 
 been shi|ipe<l in ice to the eastern cities of ('iina«ia and the I'nited States, and notwith- 
 standing; the many transportation dilHculties and drawbacks, the prices realized ^ive 
 proinise of a \ii\<iv increase in the l>iisiness, and a corresponding benefit to the province 
 in the early future, in IS'.M) tlie value of haliliiit t-aptured and used fresh was place<l 
 at .*.*«l,f<»() for t".;Wi,f<U(libs., and in |M<»| tjie catch had increased to l,l;{U,OOU lbs., 
 valued at )»")(;, ."lOU. 
 
 The total value of the lisheries of the pro\ince foi- |S!K) was reported Ijy the 
 lnspe.'l<»r at .*:{,4S|. f:{L'.-_".t. 
 
 (2.) In |S!»() Mr. Samuel Wilniol, Supt. (ieneral of l-'ish Cnhure for the Dominion, 
 acting under iiistrnctitms from the department, paid an oflicial visit tolli-.' Kraser l{i\er 
 iluring the height of the salmon fishing season and made an inspectioi of most of the 
 different canning eslablislnnents mii the I'raser Uivei', which were at that lime in full 
 operation. 
 
 The run of .salmon in 1S!I() was very heavy nud the opportuidty afVorded the 
 inspecting offi<'er to ol)taiii a full and comprehensive v c v nf the conduct of fishery 
 matters upon the Fiaser Hivt-r was very favourable. Mr. Wihnot's report to tiie (Jov- 
 ernment was ad<ipted and published in the annual jiort "f the department tor l'*90. 
 The report, howevei', produced much criticism from manv of ilie salmon canners, and 
 their ageii*' »vho com|)lained bitterly of the repre.sent!>t'"iis which were made by Mr. 
 Wilniot regarding the wlrolesale destruction c.f tisi iuid the univer'.sal custom which 
 \i: vailed of throwing all oH'al fVonr the canning establishments in the river' contrar-y 
 to law, as well as the ctindusionsarr-ived at generally in his r'epor-t. 
 
 (.'5.) With a view of detecnrinirrg the accuracy of this ivport. as well ascditairung 
 data arrd infornratiorr on rrrany other' points r'especting the river' and deep sea fi.sheries 
 of the provirrce of which, until .Mr'. Wilincrt's rejiort was made, the department had pro- 
 V icjusly l)een uninfoinied, a .Minute of Council, based uptm the r'ecorrrmerrdation of 
 the Honourable the Mirristei' of .Marine and Kisheries, was appr'ove<l orr the 2.'b'd of 
 hecernber', lf<OI, a|>pointing a Cornini.ssiorr consisting of Hon. I). \V. Higgirrs, .M.P.P., 
 Speaker' of the Hritish t'olumbia Legislative A.-sernbly, Wrn. Ar-nistrong. K.s(|., Sherifl' 
 of .\ew Westrnirrster', IJ.C, and Samuel Wilmot, K.sip, Superintendent (»f Fish Cultur'e 
 for' ('arrada, " tf» ini|uir'e into and r'cport upon the Fisheries ami Fisher'y Hcgtilations in 
 the Fr'ovince of British Colurrrbia. " 
 
 .Mr-. Charles F. Winter', of the headijuarter stafl' of the Fisheries l)e)>artrnent, was 
 detailed for duty and accorrr parr led the Comnrission as secretar-y. 
 
 The Conrinissiori was convened arrd held its first se.ssiorr at the C(»urt Hou.se in New 
 Westrrrinster", B.C., on the liMli Feijruar'y, |Slt2, Mr'. Samuel Wilnrot l>eing elected 
 chairman, anti |)r'oceedeil at once to take sworn evidence tVorrr day to day and hear 
 testimony from the actual fishc rrrreii arrd other irrterested parties in regar'd to all rrratters 
 art'ecting the fisliei'y interests ni thi' pr-ov ' ice. 
 
 On 2nd March arr adjourrunerri was made to V'ictor-ia, where sessions were held 
 tlaily in the r'oonrs of the Civic lioar-d of Tr-ade until the 10th Marrh. when the Com- 
 mission adjourrjed to Xatuiimo and helrl rrreetirrgs in the towrr hall tlier'e ; fr'om thence 
 
vm 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 the Uonmiission went to Vancouvei* ; ami then a^nin to New Westminster, where the 
 final meeting of the Commissioners was held on the 19th of March to consider and 
 draw up their report and recommendations to the department. 
 
 But previous to this a trip by steamer down the Fraser River to the open waters 
 of the Gulf of (reorgia was taken by the Commission to obtain personal knowledge 
 regarding the location and t-t^rroundings of the several canneries and other fishery 
 establishments on the river. 
 
 The work of the Connnission throughout was very considerable, as will be seen by 
 the minutes of proceedings which show that the number of witnesses examined before 
 the Commission was 112. Of these 71 and a delegation from the New Westminster 
 Boanl of Trade, weie heard in New Westminster, 20 in Victoria, 7 in Nanaimo, and 
 14 in Vancouver. 
 
 Whilst the great majority of the witnesses were actual Hshermen, there were also 
 canners, their agents, and others interested directly in the fishing industries, and many 
 others also of different occupations who volunteered their evidence, and in most cases, 
 owing to the long residence of these parties in the })rovince and their varied fishing 
 experit Kies in all parts of the Pacific coast, their testimony was found to lie most 
 valuable. 
 
 An analysis of the occupations and callings of the witnesses will be found in the 
 minutes hereto appended. 
 
 Much, if not the greater portion, of thw value attaching to the evidence jidduced 
 at the various sessions of the Commission was by reason of the length of time the 
 witnesses have been in liritish Colund)ia, during which theii- experience had led them 
 to form their opinions and views more accurately in regai'd to the subjects under 
 investigation. Theii- names and periods of residence will also be found in the minutes 
 attached. 
 
 The witnesses were all Bi'itish subjects. So of them being natives of the British 
 Isle.s, Canada and Australia, while the remainder claimed vari(»us countries as their 
 bii'thplace. With the exception of two native Indians and a naturalized Italian all 
 un<lerstood and spoke Tijnglish, and with these excepti(»ns an interpreter was not 
 required. 
 
 (4.) The undersigneil further submits the following particulars as the result (tf the 
 deliberations of this Connnission, together with the report and final decision which the 
 Commissioners arrived at, in foi'ming the series of fishery regulations which were recom- 
 mended to be adopted by the Marine and Fisheries Department. These conclusions 
 and the regulations submitted were formed u))om the basis of the large aniount of 
 evidence which was taken in the leading fities of British Columbia, where the principal 
 fishing opei'ations were carried on, and where the larger proportion of the practical 
 fishermen I'esided. 
 
 The proceedings connected with this investigation were free and open in v^very 
 particular, as it was deemed expedient by ti." (.Connnission to allow the utmost freedom 
 of expression of the views of the actual, and practical fishermen, as well as of the cannery- 
 men, and all others who were interested in the fishing industries of British Columbia. 
 
 When the Connnissioners" sittings wei-e closed to the public, and after all available 
 evidence had been taken under oath, the thive Connnissioners met by appointment, at 
 the city of New Westminster, on the 19th March last, when a draft of regulations was 
 
HRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 IZ 
 
 subinittt'd for consideration and discussion, with the view to making any alterations or 
 aniemhnents thereto before their final adoption and submission to the Honourable 
 Minister of Marine and Fisheries at Ottawa. 
 
 By a reference to the minutes of proceedings will be found eacli of the regulations, 
 No. 1 to 24, which were fully discussed by all of the Commissioners, and in the main 
 ahno.«t unanimously agreed to, excejtting a few clauses on which the Honoural»ie Mr. 
 Higgins voted nay, and others which he asked further time to consider. 
 
 The twenty-four regulations as agreed to, pro and ran, will be found hereto attachetl, 
 which the Commissioners adopted liy the following expression of opinion: 
 
 " The above sections from 1 to '24 were duly considered by this Commission and 
 the record of their unanimous adoption, or otherwise, is agreed to by the Commissioners 
 by their signatures which are hen'to attached." 
 
 (Sgd.) "Samiki. Wilmot, 
 
 Chainnan. 
 "W. J. Akmhtkon<;, 
 "D. W. Hkujins, 
 
 " Cotniiiitifiioncrx." 
 
 For the more easy and ready coniprehension of the lengthy evidence taken under 
 oath, which covers upwards of one thousand pages of type-written matter, the analysis 
 of the evidence will be found in the minutes of procee<lings, showing the number of 
 witnesses, theii- residence, their occupation, their nationality, t<tgether with the names 
 of the witnesses and the pages where their evidence is to be found. 
 
 There is also a minority report attached, given in by the Honourable Mr. Higgins, 
 l)earing date 'JOth IVlarch last, which embodies his views for dissenting from some of the 
 clauses which were carried by the majority votes of the Commission. This minority 
 report will be found appended to the majority report at the end of the minutes of pro- 
 ceedings. 
 
 Satisfactory reference is hei-e made with regai'd to the conduct and efficiency of 
 Mr. Chas. F. Winter, who acted as secretary to the Commission, and also as the sworn 
 stenographei' and type-wiiter, in taking and recording all evidence, the fulness and 
 ; accuracy of which is highly conunendable. 
 
 The several meetings of the Commission in the various cities in which they were held 
 I in British Columbia cieated much interest, and were uniformly well attemled, and 
 I gratefully acknowledged on the part of the Hsherinen and other inhabitants as a boon 
 [granted to them by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to look into the actual posi- 
 [tioii of the salmon fisheries on the Frasei' liiver and elsewhere in British Columbia. 
 
 It may be said, however, tliat the number of witnesses examined, represented a 
 
 Iportion only of the public who were interested, and largely attended the nieetings of 
 
 Ithe Connnission from day to day. The local prt^ss also gave prominence to the matters 
 
 inder consideration, and with the excej)tion of one or two of the meetings only, in the 
 
 Mty of Victoria, tln; utm(»st satisfaction and harmony prevailed. 
 
 liespectfully submitted, 
 
 SAMTKL WILMUT, 
 
 Chainnan, livitinh dthnnhia Fixherif Connnission. 
 
 P. 8, -With the view to a better understanding of the position of the fishery regu- 
 latitms as applied to the sulmon fisheries in Jiritish Columbia, prior to the appointment 
 ])f the Couiniission, and as they are at jiresent, the several regulations as they now 
 |taii(l wii; Se found hereto attached. 8. W. 
 
 ;} 
 
■\ 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 REGULATIONS IN FCItCE RELATING TO SALMON FISHERIES IN 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA PRIOR TO THE APPOINTMENT OF THE 
 FISHERIES COMMISSION ON THE 23rd DECEMBER, 1891. 
 
 SALMON KISIIIX(;. 
 
 1. Fisliiiig by means of nets or other apparatus without leases or licenses from the 
 Ministei- of Marine a;.<l Fishei-ies, is prohibited in all waters of the Province of British 
 Columbia. 
 
 Provided always, that Indians shall at all times have liberty to fish for the purpose 
 of providing food fc- themselves, but not for sale, barter or traffic, by any means other 
 than with di-ift nets oi- speai'ing. 
 
 2. Meshes of nets used for capturing salmon shall be at least five and three-quarter 
 inches extension measure, and nothing shall be done to practically diminish their size : 
 provided always that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries may order larger meshes to 
 be used at such times and places as may be in his opinion necessary for the protection 
 of the fisheries. 
 
 .3. (ft.) Drifting with salmon nets shall l)e confined to tidal waters, and no salmon 
 net of any kind sliall be used for salmon in fresh waters. 
 
 (l>.) Drift nets shall not be used so as to obstruct more than one-third of any river. 
 
 (c.) Fishing for salmon shall be discontinued from 6 o'clock p.m. f)n Saturday to 6 
 o'clock p.m. on the following Sunday, and during such close time no nets or other fishing 
 apparatus shall be set or used so as to in)pede the free course of fish, and all nets or 
 other fishing apparatus set or used otherwise shall be deemed to be illegally set and 
 shall be liable to be seized and forfeited, and the owner or owners or persons using the 
 same shall be liable to the penalties and costs imposed by the Fisheries Act. 
 
 (rf.) The use of seines for the purpose of catching salmon is prohibited in the 
 waters of Bi-itish Columbia. 
 
 4. (a.) Before any salmon net, fishing boat or other fishing apparatus shall be used, 
 the owner or persons interested in such net, fishing boat or fishing apparatus shall cause 
 a memorandum in writing setting forth the name of the owner or person interested, the 
 length of the net, boat or other fishing apparatus and its intended location to l)e tiled 
 with the Inspector of Fisheries, who, if no valid objection exists, may, in accordance with 
 instructions from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, issue a fishery license for the 
 same, and any net, fishing boat or fishing aj)paratus used before such license has been 
 obtained, and any net, fishing boat or fishing apparatus used in excess or evasion of the 
 description contained in such license shall be deemed to be illegal and liable to forfeiture, 
 together with the fish caught therein, and the owner oi- person using the same shall be 
 also subject to fine and costs under the Fisheiies Act. 
 
 (h.) All salmon nets and fishing boats shall have the name of the owner or owners 
 legibly marked on two pieces of wood or metal attached to the same, and such mark 
 shall be pi'e.served on such nets or fishing lx)ats dui'ing the fishing season in such manner 
 as to be visible without taking up the net or nets ; and any net or fishing Ijoat u.sed 
 without such mark shall be liable to forfeitui-e. 
 
 f). la.) The Minister of Mai-ine and Fisheries shall from tiuie to time determine the 
 number of boats, seines, or nets, or other fishing apparatus to be used in any of the 
 waters of liritish Columbia. 
 
 (Ii.) The total number of licenses for salmon fishing in the Eraser River shall be 
 limited to 500, and of this number ^i)0 shall be allotted among the canneries in opera 
 tion on the Fraser Biver in the season of 1890, the allotment tliereof to V)e based, in the 
 oases of the old canneries, upon their average respective packs of the last three seasons, 
 and in those of new canneries i'.p..n the estimate of the Inspector of Fisheries of the 
 rea.sonable working capacity of such new canneries. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 XI 
 
 RIES IN 
 OF THE 
 
 '8 from the 
 > of British 
 
 ;lie purpose 
 fieans other 
 
 iree-quarter 
 I their size : 
 r meshes to 
 ! protection 
 
 I no salmon 
 
 if any river, 
 iturday to 6 
 )ther tishing 
 :1 all nets or 
 ;ally set and 
 IS using the 
 
 lited in the 
 
 hall be used, 
 s shall cause 
 erested, the 
 to be tiled 
 
 dance with 
 
 ense for the 
 
 lise has been 
 
 asion of the 
 
 o forfeiture, 
 ime shall be 
 
 r or owners 
 such maik 
 ueh manner 
 y boat used 
 
 nermine the 
 any of tlie 
 
 iver shall be 
 ies in opera 
 based, in the 
 n'ee seasons, 
 leries of tln' 
 
 For all licenses up to twenty, inclusive, a fee of twenty dollars each shall be charged, 
 and for any number in excess of twenty which, under the proposed allotment any can- 
 nery may be entitled to take up, a fee of !?r)0 for each license shall be charged. Should 
 anv of the 350 licenses above referred to remain unissued, they shall be allotted on the 
 basis already stated, to the canneries applying therefor, at a fee of $nO for each licen.se, 
 and in cases there should not be a sufficient number to permit of this being alone, they 
 may Ije issued by the Inspector of Fisheries, in such manner as he deems etjuitable upon 
 payment of the last-mentioned fee ; the remaining 1")0 licen.ses to be issued at $.') per 
 licen.se to the proprietors of freezei's on the river and to fishermen, as the Minister of 
 Marine and Fisheries may authorize, no fisherman, however, to receive more than one 
 license. 
 
 No one shall fish for, catch or kill trout from the l;")th Octobei' to ir)th March, both 
 days inclusive in each year. Provided always that Indians may, at any time, catch or 
 kill trout for their own use, but not for the purjKise of sale oi- traffic. 
 
 FISH OFKAF.. 
 
 Fish ofial, or any other deleterious substances shall not be thrown into or allowed to 
 pass into, or remain in any water, or river or stream -nor shall sawdust or mill rub- 
 bish be drifted or thrown int<j any stream fretjuented by fisii in British Columbia — See 
 sec. 14, Fisheries Acts. 
 
 The following regulations for the salmon fi.sheries of British Colundjia are in 
 addition to the above and ai"e now in force in that pi-ovince : — 
 
 KKfUr.ATION OF .H'NK 1, 1892. 
 
 1. That all hond Jide fishermen, l)eing liritLsh subjects and actual residents of the 
 province, shall be entitled to obtain one (1) license to fish, upon payment of the sum of 
 !?20 for such license. 
 
 2. That each freezing establishment, actually engaged in the fi'eezing and exporting 
 of fish, shall be entitled to obtain not exceeding seven (7) licenses, and that the fee for 
 each license shall be $20. 
 
 3. That each establishment engaged in the actual business of shipping or export- 
 ing fish in ice, or otherwise, but not in the manner of freezing oi' canning, shall be en- 
 titled to obtain not exceeding three (.3) licenses, at a fee of $20 each license. 
 
 4. That each and every local trader or dealec in fish for home consumption, in 
 cities, towns, or country, actually engaged in such traffic, shall be entitled to obtain not 
 exceeding two (2) licenst's, at a fee of !?20 each license. 
 
 f). That salters and smokers of fish who cairy on this specialty in curing fish for 
 domestic or foreign markets, and not engaged in the fishing business in any other way, 
 may be entitled to obtain two licenses upon the payment of a fee of $20 for each license. 
 
 6. That every actual resident settlei- (with his family lesiding with him) shall be 
 entitled to obtain one (1) license to fish, upt)n payment of $2 for the same ; and shall 
 be pennitted to fish in any of the waters of British Columbia, except in any prescribed 
 limits at the m(»uths of rivers or streams, or during the close times ; every such settler 
 shall be a British subject, and such license will only permit of fishing for family use, but 
 not for sale or bartei-. 
 
 7. That each canning establishment, actually carrying (»n the canning industry, 
 shall be entitled to receive twenty boat licenses to fish as its maximum number ; and 
 that the fee payal)le for each such license shall l)e $20, to apply everywhere alike 
 throughout the province. 
 
 8. All the persons so nuMitioned in all of the above sections as entitled to receive 
 licenses shall be ftowt/jV/c resident British suLjects and the actual proprietors of the 
 business for which the licenses are obtained. 
 
 !). That all licenses so obtained shall not l)e transferable under any conditions 
 whatever, without the consent in writing from the Depai-tment of Marine and Fishei-ies. 
 
XII 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Coi»Y OK TiiK Uk<julati<»\s, I TO 24, Kk(;ommkm)ki) hv tiik Hiutisii Columiha Fisii- 
 KKiKH Commission to uk oonsidkiikd and AOoi'TKit nv tiik Dki'aktmknt or Maiuvk 
 
 AND FlHIIKUIES OF CANADA. 
 
 From the evidence taken under oath from numerous parties in relation to the sub- 
 ject of the fisheries at tlie cities of New Westminster, Victoria, Vancouver and 
 Nanaimo, the followinji; conclusions were come to on the sul)jects contained in tlie 
 .several paragraplis herein, which are numbered from 1 to 24, and are recommend(«l to he 
 adopted by the Fisheries l)e[tartment of Canada, fctr the conservation and maintenance 
 of the fishin;,' industries of the Province of British Columbia. The recommendations 
 are as follows : 
 
 1. That each canning establishment, actually cirryinj? on the cannin<; industry, shall 
 be entitled to receive eijjhteen l>oat licen.ses to fish as its maximum number ; and that 
 the fee payable for each such licen.se shall be .$20. 
 
 2. That each freezinj? establishment, actually engaf^ed in the freezing and exporting 
 of fish, shall be entitled to obtain not exceeding .seven licenses, and that the fee for each 
 license shall be $20. 
 
 .'$. That each establishment engaged in the actual business of shipping or exporting 
 fish in ice, or otherwi.se, but not in the manner of freezing or canning, shall l»e entitled 
 to obtain not exceeding three licen.se.s, at a fee of $'20 each license. 
 
 4. That each and c^very local trader or dealer in fish f<»r home consumption, in 
 cities, towns, or cimntry, actually engaged in such traffic, shall be entitled to obtain not 
 exceeding two lict ses, at a fee of $'20 each license. 
 
 5. That all htmii, fidf. fishermen, being liiitish sul)jects and actual residents of the 
 province, shall be (»ntitled to obtain one license to fish, upon payment of the sum of $'20 
 for such licHMise. 
 
 (\. That every actual resident .settler (with his family residing with him) shall be 
 entitled to obtain one license to fish, upon |)ayment of $'2 foi' the same ; and shall be 
 permitted to fish in any of the waters <»f liritish Columbia, except in any prescribed 
 limits at the mouths of rivers or streams, or during the close times; every such settler 
 fhall be a British subject, and such license will oidy permit of fishing for family use, but 
 not foi' sale or bai'ter. 
 
 7. That tlu^ regular annual close time for salmon fishing in any of the rivers or 
 .streams of Uritish Columbia shall be from the 1st October to the 1st March foll<»wing 
 in ev('ry year. 
 
 That the weeky close time f(»r fishing for salmon or other fish in the waters of 
 British Columbia shall be f rom fi o'clock a.m. on every Saturday till 12 o'ch)ck midnight 
 <m the following Sunday. 
 
 S. That the limitation for the size of mesh of salmon nets and \\w [)eriod in which 
 such sized nets shall be u.sed, shall be ;>s follows : 
 
 A net with a 7^ inch mesh for capturing spring salmon to l»e used from 1st March 
 to loth August. A net with a mesh not less than HJ inch mesh for sockeye, cohoe or 
 other salmon, may be usetl only between l.st .Inly and 1st October. 
 
 The above meshes are extension measure. 
 
 9. That all licenses so obtained shall not be tiaiisferalile under any conditions what- 
 ever, without tlu^ consent in writing from the Department of Fisheries. 
 
 10. That the tidal boundaries for all or any fishing for comjiHM'cial purposes con 
 nected with canning, fn'ezing, or exporting of salmon, shall be at Pitt Hiver, and at a 
 line across the Fraser Kivei- at Whonmick Creek : above these tw(» points on the Pitt 
 and Fraser llivers, netting or fishing for connnercial purposes as Jibove de.sci'ibed, is 
 forbidden. 
 
 11. Tlu' use of seines for capturing fish of any descripti<»n is wlK)lly forbidden at 
 the mouths of all rivers or streams within certain limits thereof as may belaid down by 
 the Department of Fisheries. 
 
 
 5 
 
 togetl; 
 the m 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 XIII 
 
 1 2. That tlipn; s 
 
 liall I) 
 
 ill 
 
 H' iio (hscnininfitioii witli regard to tin- nnnioers ot licfiises 
 
 >t- li 
 
 IlIA FlSII- 
 
 f Mahink 
 
 » the sul»- 
 uver and 
 t!(l in the 
 u\vd to \m' 
 intcnancp 
 endations 
 
 stry, shall 
 and that 
 
 expijrtinf^ 
 e for each 
 
 t'XpDi'tinf^ 
 )e entitled 
 
 inption, in 
 obtain not 
 
 nts of the 
 
 uni of $20 
 
 ii) shall he 
 1 shall be 
 prescribed 
 jch settler 
 y use, but 
 
 • rivers or 
 following? 
 
 waters of 
 midnight 
 
 in which 
 
 st March 
 cohoe or 
 
 ions what 
 
 Mjses con 
 
 and at a 
 
 n the Pitt 
 
 scribed, is 
 
 bidden at 
 <h)wn by 
 
 nor the fees payable for the same, for canners, or others, throughout the waters of British 
 t'olunibia. 
 
 \'A. That the throwinj; of tish oHal or dead lish, saw-<lust, mill rubbish, or any 
 deleterious substance into the rivers, 'or other waters fretpuMited by tish, isalike injurious 
 to these waters and to the iidiabitants I'esidinj; alonj^ the same ; and therefore the laws 
 relatiiij^ to the pntveiition of oti'al and deleterious sul)stances beiiij^ thiown into such 
 w)vtei"s should be enforced in th<^ interests of the comnuinity at large. 
 
 14. That it would btMixpedient, for the im]>roveu)eiit of the fisheries in British 
 Columbia, that additional tish hatcheries to the one now in existence should i»e built in 
 well selected localities on the u])per branches of the Krasei- River, the evidence iM'fore 
 this Commi.ssion beinfj larf,'ely j.fiven in this line. 
 
 15. That tlie f^reat destruction of herrinj,' now practised to supply a few crude 
 uileries on the coast and (elsewhere, should be prevented by departmental enactments, 
 and thus avoid the t<io j,'r«'at and raj)id dejtletion of an impoitant factor as bait for 
 carryinj< on th«^ deep sea fisheries of the British Colund)ian coast in the future. 
 
 10. That the halibut fisheries on the coast (»f British Columbia, now assuming 
 i'r«!at importance from th(^ succcs.ses which have att(M)ded the catches lately made and 
 their introduction into the markets of Boston and elsewhere on the Atlantic coast, demand 
 the husbanding care of the (jioverinneiit for the advancement of this new industry which 
 bids fair to give additional wealth to the iidiabitants of British Columbia. 
 
 17. That the inclinati(»n on the part of the fishermen is to iiurrea.se the killing 
 capacity of tlu! drift net by giving it greatiM' depth tiiaii ap})ears necessary for fairly 
 •legitimate fishing, and as the depth as shown now varies from .'50 to (iO meshes, and in 
 order to place all fishermen upon the .same footing in their lishiiig operations, and to 
 guard against too exc(\s.sive destruction of the salmon, the drift net for sockeyes should 
 be limited to a depth not exceeding oO meshes. 
 
 IS. That doubts having arisen with regard t.<» the actual meaning of subsec. 8 of 
 section 8, chap. '.)') of the Revised Statutes of Canada, it is desirable in the intenssta 
 of river fishing in liritish Columbia with niference to hiaving portions of the riviM' free 
 fioin fishing, that not more than onci-third of the river should Ix^ left. open. 
 
 11). That the system now prevailing along the coast of killing vast nriiiibers of dog- 
 fish expressly for the u.se of the livers of .said li.sh for oil purposes only, .should be di.s- 
 coiitinu«'»l, uiiU^ss the bo<lies of these fish are utilized in tlu^ same m.i..iier. 
 
 20. That salters and .smokers of fish who carry on their specialty in curing tish for 
 domestic or foreign markets, and not engagtMl in the fishing business in any other way, 
 may be entitled to obtain two licenses upon the payment of a fee of 8-0 for each license. 
 
 21. That a suggestion is mad«' to the department for the advisability for further 
 protection of the fisheries, that a suHicient number of achlitional guardians should be 
 a[)pointed, to enforce tlii^ fishery laws. 
 
 22. That it is expedient, in the interests of the Fraser iiiver tisherie.s, that the early 
 runs of the (|uinnat and .sockeye .salmon shouhl be cajituied from which to obtain their 
 ova for artificial bn'eding in the hatcheries. 
 
 2H. That the introduction of shad, oysters and lobsters into the waters of liritish 
 Columbia from the Atla.itic coast, is most desiralde, and that the Department of 
 Kis! I H be re(|uested to institute such means as will bring about this most desirable 
 eiiterpri.se. 
 
 24. That whereas the native oyster is f(nind in .some localities along the J^ritish 
 Columbia coast, and as they are becoming rapidly ilecimated by the acti<m of a few 
 fishermen an<l Indians, regardless of con.se(|ueiices, it is desiiable that the Fi.sheries 
 Department should take speedy action to prevent their extermination by establishing 
 proper do.se sea.sons, and encouraging j)ersons who may be desirous of entering into the 
 business of oyster culture. 
 
 NoTK. The c<»nsideration and adoption of the above legulations from 1 to 24, 
 together with discussion and votes taken thereon by the Commis.sioiiers, will be found in 
 the minutes of proceedings hereto appended. 
 
mo 
 
 1892 
 
 RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 
 
 AND 
 
 1 
 
 it, 
 
 W ii 
 
 
 MIISrUTES 0:tr EVIDEISrCE, &c. 
 
INDEX TO WITNESSES 
 
 i . ) 
 
 'i ' 
 
 PAtiK. 
 
 Allen, N 391 
 
 Armstrong/, .1. (' 1()4 
 
 Arthur, Wm 169 
 
 lliiin, L. H 396 
 
 Hfttchelor, J 9 
 
 lieer, James 25 
 
 IWg, A 340 
 
 liefl-Irving, M.l)., Diinoan 386 
 
 Ikll-Iiving, Henry 328 
 
 Benson, If 1) 228 
 
 IJirrell, P 96, 244 
 
 Hogart, T 259 
 
 Hoggs, B 339 
 
 Bonfield. K 89 
 
 Brown, J 403 
 
 Buck, B./ 27 
 
 Buie, J 54 
 
 (^iplin, G. (Musquam Charlie) 129 
 
 Campbell, T 402 
 
 Campbell, \V 388 
 
 CoojMir, Capt 197. 205, 208 
 
 Cooper, H. M, M.l) 86 
 
 (^arbouUl, McCoU, Wilson & ('ainpbell. ,. 4 
 
 Costigan, Win 17 
 
 Cunnningham, Thos 202 
 
 (UuTy, P. S 369 
 
 Dawe, Samuel 60 
 
 Dempster, VV. H 309 
 
 Devine, W. K 73 
 
 Dinnear, \V 71 
 
 Discussion (final) 412 
 
 "Dunsmuii " Steamer. Meeting of Com- 
 mission on board 406 
 
 English, M. M 138 
 
 Kwen, Alex Ill, 116, 227 
 
 F 
 
 Fader, A 124 
 
 Fagan, Chas., M.D 212 
 
 Or 
 
 (let -ge, Captain (Indian) 392 
 
 (iossett, Hugh VV 245 
 
 (ioustaf, Joseph 403 
 
 (irant, Cowan D 32, 153 
 
 (ireen, Ashdowne .305, 336 
 
 (ireen, C. F 239 
 
 (Jreen, W 372 
 
 lOc— B 
 
 PAflE. 
 
 Harper, Robt 246 
 
 Herring, T. W 11 
 
 Holliday, (Seorge 48 
 
 Hw>d, T 70 
 
 Ibbotson, J 218 
 
 Ingk'hart, J 385 
 
 Jcnns, R. A 1 74 
 
 Johnston, M 352, ;160 
 
 Kaye, Fred 29 
 
 Kekoni 21 
 
 Kelly, John 381 
 
 Kirliland, John 235 
 
 Lacoste, li 367 
 
 Laidlaw, J. A 189 
 
 Ladner, Thos 105, 210, 213 
 
 Ladner, W. H 237 
 
 L'HenaflF, Louis 26 
 
 Lomas, W. H 317, 321 
 
 Lord, F. L 176 
 
 Lord, John K 15, 94 
 
 M 
 
 Macaveri, Louis 
 
 Madison, Benj 
 
 Mariiuette, J. H 
 
 MartKi, L 
 
 Melville, David 78, 
 
 Mitchell, Robt 
 
 Morgan, Johnny 
 
 Munn, D. J 35 
 
 McDonald, I). S ! 
 
 McDonald, J. J 
 
 McLashlan, John. 
 
 McLellan, A. J 
 
 McLaiichlin, M 
 
 McNab, John 56, 
 
 McNeely, Thos 
 
 McNeil, W 
 
 McTiernan, P 46, 
 
 223 
 
 23 
 135 
 323 
 146 
 401 
 167 
 
 62 
 367 
 181 
 
 23 
 282 
 
 92 
 393 
 206 
 333 
 227 
 
 N 
 
 Nelson, H 68 
 
 Nelson, Peter 19 
 
 New Westminster Ik)urd of Trade 249 
 
 O Reilly, Hon. P. O 296 
 
mm 
 
 • • f 
 
 XVlll 
 
 MARINB AND FIHIiRHIBg. 
 
 Paor. 
 
 p„OT F ^^ Mtiuiley, riuiH 
 
 pSa .■;; .24JiSU.v.nH..I... 
 
 Peterson, John ri." iin ^nr. 
 
 Port, 1). H "''■^. no, 405 
 
 Pretty, C. F. . 
 
 Pacik. 
 77 
 
 57 
 
 Q 
 
 QucsncUc, R. 
 
 370 
 
 Raymond, J. L •*'•* 
 
 Relnhar.lt, W., M.D ;f^» 
 
 Rit.het, R. P ^^ 
 
 Roori, VV 
 
 Rubs, John 
 
 361 
 151 
 
 S 
 
 Sheaves, Thos 
 
 Short, IJ. J 
 
 Smith, A. \V., M.P.r.... 
 Smith, W. DeW., M.D.. 
 Spencer, S 
 
 To(l.l,J.H '297,320.358 
 
 Vancouver Hoard of Trade 405 
 
 Vienna, (Jeo *^, 
 
 Vienna, W. H J« 
 
 Vozwin, F •*♦'** 
 
 w 
 
 Wadham?, E. A JJJ 
 
 Wagner, John '^^ 
 
 Walgran.P 24 
 
 Ward, RolKirt -^J 
 
 Weston, J. C 
 Wilson, J. R., M.D.. 
 Winch, R. V. 
 
 76 
 399 
 290 
 215 
 253 ' Wright, F 
 
 04 
 224 
 376 
 
 Wise, James ^ 
 
 Wright, A. W •[»^ 
 
 4 
 
ANALYSIS OF WITNESSES HEARD BY THE COMMISSION. 
 
 At New WestminHtdr there were heiinl .... 71 witnesses and n dele- 
 
 gati(»n from the New 
 Westminster Boarrl 
 of Triide. 
 
 At Victoria there were heard 20 witnesses. 
 
 At Nanaimo do 7 do 
 
 At Vancouver do 14 do 
 
 In all 112 witnesses. 
 
 The great majority of these witnesses were persons of many years' residence in the 
 province and their experience in connection with the fisheries extends over a consider- 
 able pericxl, as appears from tlie following : — 
 
 25 witnesses had been residing in B.C. for 30 years and over. 
 
 16 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 19 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 21 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 18 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 1 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 ^nd 12 witnesses did not state their length of residence, 
 112 
 
 over 20 years but umler .30. 
 over 10 years but under 20. 
 over 5 years but under 10. 
 over 2 years but under 5. 
 under 1 year. 
 
 By oc'tupations the witnesses were divided as follows : — 
 
 Ciinners and agents of canneries 15 
 
 Cannery managers and book-keepers 2 
 
 Fishermen 50 
 
 li'armers 7 
 
 Merchants and traders 7 
 
 Fish dealers (fresh fish) 7 
 
 Freezers 2 
 
 General merchant and cooper 1 
 
 Hotel-keeper 1 
 
 Master mariners 2 
 
 Physicians and surgeons 6 
 
 Indian Reserve Commissioner and Indian agents 3 
 
 Fishery officers 3 
 
 Civil engineer 1 
 
 Barrister 1, Chemist 1 2 
 
 Butcher 1, Accountant 1 2 
 
 Promoter of colonization companies ' 
 
 112 
 
mi 
 
 
 XX MARINK AND FIHIIBRrR8. 
 
 TliP witnesscH won> ail Riitisli Hultjj-ctH niid woi-o iiativcH (»f tlio following phwcM 
 
 Rn^land 29 
 
 Ht-otland \^ 
 
 1 rnlaiid ;{ 
 
 Ontorio | ;{ 
 
 Quol)eo 1 
 
 Nova Hcotia f, 
 
 New Brunswick ;{ 
 
 Prince Edward Tsland 2 
 
 British Columbia : 
 
 Whites 3 
 
 Indians 2 
 
 Newfoundland 4 
 
 Australia 1 
 
 United Htates r» 
 
 Russia ;{ 
 
 France 1 
 
 ' Holland !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i 
 
 Greece 2 
 
 Portugal 2 
 
 Norway and Sweden 4 
 
 Italy 2 
 
 Germany 1 
 
 Not given (5 
 
 112 
 
 HI: 
 
COMMISSION FOU TIIK INVK8TIGATI0N OF MATTERS IN CONXKCTION 
 WITH TIIK SALMON FISIEKRIFS OF BRITISH COLUMBIA. 
 
 Ni:\v \Vi;htmi\htki{, B.C., i'JtIi Ft'l»rmiry, 1892. 
 
 h'irxt Ihiys JSi'sxion. 
 
 Th«' Coinini.ssioiit'rs ji|)|Miiiitr«l t'oi' tlif iiiv('stif^iitii)ii (tf iniitters coiincrted with the 
 MiiliiKiii lislifiic's nt' British I'niinnhia, etc., mot, liy pciiiiissioii of the Honourable the 
 I'roviiicial Secretary, in the Court house, New Westminster, at '2 o'cloek p.m. 
 
 I* f' HI lit : 
 
 The Ilonourahle D. W. Iliu'^^ins, of Victoria, B.C.; SherilV W. J. Armstrong, of 
 Now Westniinstei', B.C.; S. Wilniot, K.si|., Supciintentlent of Fish Culture for the 
 Dominion of Canada, and Mr. C. F. Winter, of Ottawa, .seeretary. 
 
 Cpon re(|uest liy Mr. Wihnot, the sciictary reail the Orders in Council apj)ointing 
 the Commission as follows : - 
 
 "CkhtI1'II;i» vuvx of h Ji< /lort nf n Cmnnilthi' of (hf IldiHPiirahli- ihi' Pi'lfjf Council, 
 ii/iprori'd hi/ //is /'Jxrilhiicij ///»' (I'licirnin'-d'ou'rnf- in Ci>iiniif,i)u f/u- Liot/i of Aiiijuat, 
 IS'.)/. 
 
 " On a report date'' 10th August, 1S!»1, from the Minister of Marine and Fish- 
 erie.s, stating that he has i-eceived a conununication signed l)y all the representatives of 
 the Province of Britisii t'olumltia in thi; House of Commons, re|)resenting that tisiiery 
 regulations, which may be well adapted to othei' pros inces, aic not always applicable to 
 Britisii Col iMi)ia, and ui-ging tlie necessity of appointing a Connnission f(»r the purpose 
 of collecting; infoiination on tiie sul).ject of tiu' existing regulations in I'.ritish Colundjia, 
 and especially with regai'd to the alleged injurious etlei-ts of throwing H.sli otlal into the 
 water. 
 
 "The Minister, in connection with this matter, states, that during the course of an 
 otHeial inspection made last .season, the Superintendent of Fish Culture ascertained that 
 tlie ]u-actice of throwing (tH'al in the water, although prohibited by the Fi!?heries Act, 
 was general. 
 
 " It is deemed unnecessary here to deal at length with the injurious effects of such 
 a practice, sulKce it to say that it is uaiversally condemned in Enghuid, as well as in 
 other European countries. Britisii Colunil)ia canners, however, claim that it can do no 
 harm to the salmon industry, as it is, they say, at once consumed l)y small tish or carried 
 to the .sea by the swift current in tiie Eraser J{iver. 15ut, on this j)oint, the ollicers of 
 the Fisheries Department are of o[>iruon that such a condition is untenable, owing to the 
 enormous (luantity of refuse, amounting to no le.ss than S,7.'i;5,000 lbs. each season. 
 
 " The Minister ob.serves, that ai)art from this consideration, fully (me-fourth of this 
 consideiable mass of tish iiuitter, thus thrown away, consists of good wholesome food, 
 wantonly destroyed and lost for human wants. This loss i-epresents an ecjuivalent of 
 1^77,481) salmon, whicii are thus allowed to go to w, ,ste and pollute the water. Most, if 
 not the whole of this refuse could l)e profitably useo for making tish-oil or guano, thus 
 o[)ening new fields to other industries. Settlers along the F'raser River also comj)laiu 
 bitterly of the pollution caused by this ofliiil and of the stench which arises therefrom. 
 
 " The Minister appends a memo, containing a syno[)sis of present and past regula- 
 tions in force in British Colundjia, together with such regulations as have been proiKwed 
 but n(jt adopted. 
 
 " The Minister, in view of certain peculiarities of the Pacific fisheries, their great 
 value, and of the I'equest on the part of members of Parliament, to which reference has 
 
 lOc— 1 
 
MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 J I! 
 
 f,'|i 
 
 
 been made, recommends that a Connnission, consisting of tlie undermentioned gentle- 
 men, be appointed to inquire into and report upon the fisheries and fishery regulati <ns 
 in the Province of liritisli CoUunbia, viz. : — Charles T. Dupont, Charles G. Major, and 
 Samuel AVilmot, Escjuires. 
 
 " The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval. 
 
 (Sgd.) "JOHN J. McGEE, 
 
 " Clerk, Privy Council." 
 
 Messrs. Dupont and Major having signified their inability to act upon the Commis- 
 sion, the following minute of Council was subsequently approved by His Excellency, 
 and which was also read by the .secretary, as follows : — 
 
 " Cektifikd Copy o/" rf Report oj a Committee of tlie Hnnonralih' the Priv// Council, 
 (ipproved hi/ llis Excellency t/ie Uofernor-d'eneral iti Council, on the ,'3rd of 
 December, 1S91. 
 
 " The Committee, on the reconnnendation of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, 
 advise that the Order in Council of the 2.")th August, 1891, appointing Messrs. Charles 
 T. Dupont, Chailes (t. ]Major and Sanmel Wilmot, Commissioners to inquire into and 
 report ujK)n the Fisheries and Fisheiy Regulations of the Province of IJritish Columbia, 
 be cancfilled. 
 
 " The Connriittee on the same recommendation advise that ^Ir. David W. Higgins, 
 of Victoria, antl ^Vl, William J. Arm.strong, Sheriff of New Westmin.ster, together with 
 Mr. Sanmel Wilmot, be appointed a Connnission for the above-named purpose. 
 
 (Sgd.) " JOHN J. McGEE, 
 
 " Clerk, Privy Council:' 
 
 The secretary then I'ead a letter of instructions addressed by the Honourable Charles 
 H. Tupper, Ministei- of Marine and Fisheries, to the Commissioners, and which was as 
 
 follows : — ; . 
 
 "Ottawa, 27tli January, 1892. 
 
 " GiiNTi.KMKN, — By virtue of an Older in Council, approved by His Excellency the 
 Governor-General on the 2.'3id December, 1891, you have been appointed Connnissioners 
 to iii(|uire into and repoi-t upon the Fishei'ies and Fishery l^egulations of the Province 
 of British Columbia. 
 
 " I have directed that Mr. Charles F. Winter, Secretary to the Df'[)uty ]Minister of 
 Fisheries, sliouhl l)e detailed to act as secretary to your Commission. 
 
 "In view of Mr. Wilmot's position us Supeiintendent of Fish Culture in Canada, 
 and his pf)sition in my (!ej)artnieut, I w<'uld be glad, should it meet with your approval, 
 for him to act as chairman during your deliberations. 
 
 " "It is desired by me that while you should be free to ia(|uire into the subject of 
 regulations geneially tor the fisheries of British Columljia, in such way as you deem best, 
 all e\i(lenceor information offered you shall be, as far as jxissible, luaile part of the record 
 of your proceedings. Mr. WinteJ", as a shorl-hand writer, will be able to take down such 
 evidence as you may wish to hear. After you have actjuii'ed such information as you 
 desire, I would l)e glad to have such draft I'egulations as you may agree ujjon, with such 
 arguments as you have to ofTer in suppoi-t of them, and if it is not possible foi' you to 
 agree, I would be gLd to have i'egulations from each, or any two of you, supported in 
 the .same way. 
 
 " While I am not at ju'esent authorized to j)ay out of the public funds more than 
 the expenses which you may incur for the purposes of the irujuiry, 1 may say to you 
 that it is my intention to submit for the consideration of His Excellency in Council, 
 when the Estimates for the next Session are taken up, an item covering a proper allow- 
 ance to you, in the nature of an honorarium. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 8 
 
 " I need not impress upon you the necessity for bringing your deliberations to a 
 close as speedily as possible, though at the same time I have no desire that you should 
 unduly hasten the work. 
 
 " I have the honour to be, gentlemen, 
 " Your obedie.it servant, 
 
 •i?>- 
 
 (Sgd.) 
 
 " CHARLES H. TUPPER." 
 
 It was tlien moved by Mr. Higgins, ,s(!co!ided by Mr. Armstrong, that Mr. Wilmot 
 take the Chair. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot, on doing so, thanked his colleagues for their confidence, and explained 
 that the Minister's suggestion was made in view not only of his (Mr. Wilmot's) long 
 experience in connection with piscatorial matters, but rdso in case of the occasional 
 absence from the sessions of the local (\)mmissioners, he considered it would be better to 
 have as presiding officer tlie Commissioner who woulil be quite sure to be present at all 
 the sittings of the Commission. 
 
 Mr. Higgins and Mr. Armstrong concuri-ed in this view. 
 
 Commissioners Higgins and Armstrong questioned tlie powers of the Commission 
 under the Orders in Council read by the secretary, and considered a legal opinion as to 
 their power to sunnnon witnesses and administer oaths should be secured. 
 
 The secr(>taty stated that he was aware tlie Minister had previously appointed 
 Commi.ssions by Order in Council, under authority of chap. 115 of the Revised Statutes, 
 and by which witnesses were summoned and oaths administered. 
 
 Tt was agreed that the question sjiould be referred to the legal firm of Corbould, 
 McColl, Wilson & Campbell, for a decision as to the powers of the Commission, before 
 proceeding to take evidence. 
 
 Upon the question of programme and the more particular matters to be taken up, — 
 
 Mr. Wilmot submitted a memo, of matters for investigation and upon which Mr. 
 Tupper had made marginal notes. (Fisheries file No. 8478 — '90). The points more 
 particularly to be taken up were : — 
 
 (1.) Otfal. 
 
 (2.) The limitation of number of nets in the Fra.ser River, their length and size of 
 mesh. 
 
 (3.) Whethei- licenses, establishing the number of them which shall be given, to 
 canners, to regular fishermen, to freezers and to settlers. 
 
 (4.) The close seasons, annual and weekly. 
 
 (5.) Fishing limits in the Fraser, shall they be reduced from what they are at 
 present ? , 
 
 (G.) Sliall licenses Ije granted only to resident British sul)jects, or to any person 
 applying for them 1 
 
 (7.) Whethei' a discrimination of fees for licen.ses should be made as between 
 canners or other fishermen on the Fi-aser River, and those fishing on or at the estuaries 
 of other rivei's in Biitisii Columbia. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong stated that lie also had been considering the matter to be inquired 
 into and had drawn up a few questions in the line in which he thought inquiry should 
 be made, and which he read to the Commission as follows : — 
 
 (1.) What depth of net slumld be allowed for fishing in the Fraser River? 
 
 (2.) Should fishing fov canneries be allowed outside the mouth of the river? 
 
 (.'5.) Should the offal go into the river or l)e othei-wise utilized ? 
 
 (4.) Should all canneries have the same numbej' of licenses? 
 
 (T).) Ho\'^ many licenses should each can nei'y have ! 
 
 (6.) Should licenses be of an uniform })rice for canneries throughout the province? 
 
 (7.) Should any l)ut British subjects of twelve months' standing have a license? 
 
 (8.) How many licenses should be issued to fishermen outside of canneries? 
 
 (9.) Should Indians have licenses to fish for the canneries, and if so, how many? 
 
 (10.) Should residents along the river who do not make fishing a business have 
 licenses to fish, or should they be allowed to fish for their own consumption without a 
 license ? 
 
 lOc— 1| 
 
MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 '• I 
 
 (11.) What capacity are the canneries ? 
 
 (12.) What does it cost during ihe average run of fish to put up a case of 48 one- 
 pound tins — get details of expenditure. 
 
 The Coniniissioners agreed to conduct the inquiry upon the general lines embodied 
 in both Mr. Armstrong's paper and the memo, of Mr. Wilmot. 
 
 On the question of " open " or " close " meetings, — 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — " Well, the next question would be, shall the meetings be open to 
 everybody and everything? " 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — "Yes, sir." 
 
 Mr. HiGoiNS.— " Press and all ?" 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — "Yes, sir, press and all, if these things need ventilation let 
 them have it. If we close our meetings, then after we are done there would be sure to 
 to be a great cry about it and no matter how fair and honest we conducted the matter, 
 we would be given no credit for it. I tliink it would be well to get all interested in 
 canneries to give evidence, then take freezers and then fishermen ; if we get canners, 
 freezers and fishermen in liere together we won't be able to keep them from talking and 
 disputing." 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — ^" Oh, well, we must keep order — no discussion must take place to 
 interfere with what is going on before the Commission. The only thing in regard to the 
 press is that if matters are under discussion here and it appears next morning perhaps 
 different to wliat it really is, it would throw some discredit upon the investigation." 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — " Oh, but we are not discussing these matters with anybody else. 
 We are getting answers to certain questions and then we will discuss the case and not 
 before — at any rate that is my view." 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — " Very well ; but these interests of canners and fishermen are very 
 conflicting. Now if some canners are present and .some fishermen, would it not prevent 
 the latter from giving that free and open evidence which otherwise they would give f 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — "AVell, if wo find that anything like that occurs we can ask the 
 gentlemen to withdraw, but I cannot consistently s<ay I would have it with clo.sed doors. 
 What do you think, Mr. Higgins ?"' 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — "AVell, I think it should not be altogether closed, except .some- 
 thing like what Mr. Wilmot suggests should occur. I would prefer an open meeting — 
 if we find such has any deterrent eiFect on any witnesses we can easily remedy it." 
 
 The Commission thereupon decided to sit with open doors. 
 
 After discussion and on formal motion of Mr. Higgins, it was decided that the 
 hours of sitting of the Commission should be daily from 10 a.m. to 12 noon and from 
 1 p.m. to 6 p.m., and that the Commission sit this evening from 8 p.m. to 10.30 p.m., 
 to take evidence — future evening sittings Vieing determined daily. 
 
 The secretary being despatcheil for one of the members of the legal firm to whom 
 it had been decided to refer the question of the powers of the Commission, returned 
 with Mr. McCoU (CorboukI, McColl, Wilson tk Campbell). Mr. McColl, after perusing 
 the papers, stated that it was quite clear to him that the present Commission had full 
 power, under authority of Chapter 115 to summon witnesses and administer oaths, and 
 all persons so summoned were bound to appear and answer all questions submitted to 
 them, and all parties so summoned and not appearing could be placed under arrest and 
 tried for the offence. Mr. McColl also approved of a form of oath submitted by Mr. 
 Wilmot and to be taken by all witnesses examined, and which was as follows :— 
 
 "I solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will truly answer all such 
 
 questions as may be put to me and also give such information as may be within my per- 
 sonal knowledge to this Commission relating to the .salmon or other fisheries of British 
 Columbia now under consideration : 
 
 "So help me God." 
 
 Upon recjuest of the chairman, Mr. Winter, the secretary of the Commission took 
 the following path : — 
 
 " In the matter of a certain Commission directed by an Order in Council dated 
 23rd December, 1891, directed to l>avid W. Higgins, W. J. Armstrong, and Samuel 
 
 I I 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FfSHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 Wilmot, to inquire into and report upon the fisheries and fishery regulations in the 
 Province of British Columbia, and in the matter of Chapter 115 of the Revised Statutes 
 of Canada, 1886, 
 
 " I, Charles F. Winter, the stenographei- appointed by the Minister of Marine to 
 act as secretary in the matter of the above Commission, do niake oath and say, that I 
 will truly take down the evidence that may be given in above Commission and faithfully 
 perform all the duties that may be recjuired of me by said Commissioners to the best of 
 my ability : 
 
 « So help me God." 
 
 Upon the (juestion of issuing summons to witnesses, it was decided to accept all 
 voluntary evidence first and not issue any summons unless in case of actual necessity. 
 
 The Chair having declared the Commission ready for the taking of evidence :— 
 
 JAMES WISE, of New Westminster, appeared and after being duly sworn : 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, gentlemen, we will proceed. Mr. Wise, have you any sugges- 
 tions to offer or statement to make ? 
 
 WiTNK.ss. — ^[y principal object in ciiuiing here is this : This fishing business is 
 a very mixed business — it is very dissatisfactory to a great many, and in fact two years 
 ago when a farmer could ncjt fish liimself or let his sons do so, it was very near making 
 a great deal of trouble — when the free p(!ople on the banks of the Eraser could not catch 
 a fisl. at their own doors, why we might as well be in Russia or Ireland, or some other 
 country of that descripti(jn. (Laugiiter.) Then a tel(>gram came to late Inspector 
 Mowat to give licenses for .~?2. I have not much other information to give you, but I 
 would prefer answering (juestioiis if you will ask them upon any particular point you 
 may re(iuire. 
 
 Mr. HuuiiNS. — Arc yf>u in the fishing business? 
 
 WiTXKss. — Xo, not now. T sold out to Mr. Hwen four years ago. I had a plant 
 that cost me .'?4,000 and ap])lied for licenses, but I could not get one. I was one of the 
 first fishermen on the river, as botii you irentlemen (to Messrs. Armstrong and Higgins) 
 know, and worked the industry up from its infancy. I am not in the fishing business 
 at present, but would like to go into it next season. Itut if I jmt money into plant and 
 then cannot get a license, well, I don't want to have anything to do with it. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(ii\s.— Have you ever been in the canning business 1 
 
 WiTNKSs. — I was in the cj'niiery business ten years ago. 
 
 Mr. FlicciNS. — What is your o[)inion as to mesh of nets. Is the present mesh 
 satisfactoiy .' 
 
 WiTNKss. — Oil, yes, but 1 think nets are a secondary consideration ; you want 
 nets here that will catch the fish and you nmst arrange it according to their size. The 
 reason I make this remark as to size is that I have found spawn in a four-pound salmon 
 and it was just as well fitted for spawning as that in larger salmon. 
 
 Mr. Hkkuns. - What do you think of catching fish in the mouth of the river? 
 
 Witness. — It is very detrimental and stops fish from coming into the river. It 
 stops them in this way, Mr. Higgins, it stojis them when they arc active and lively and 
 in the prime of life, and they ai'e held l)ack until they are not in such gooil condition. 
 
 Mr. HifJCiiNs.-— But are they not caught at the mouth of the river? 
 
 WiTNKs.s. ~Ye.s, they are caught, but their course to the river is often deflected 
 away aiul they go to t)ther j)laces and we lose the fish to that extent. I have seen 
 Indians who have told me they have seen our tisli going up to Como.x and other rivers 
 where they were not until some seven years ago. They are a very timid fish, but of 
 course in the last extremity will go up notwithstanding all barricades, ttc. The breeding 
 time is exhausting to any animal or fish and all these bars which the fish try to pass 
 must make them more weakened. Let the (ish get into the river and they will not go 
 back; they will go on up and s{)awn. Then pi'otect your spawning grounds properly — 
 this, 1 think, is the great question. 
 
 Mr. HiraiiNs. — What do you think about licenses 1 Is the present system 
 satisfactory ? 
 
 WiTNKss. — Well, it nuiy be partly satisfactory to a few, but it is only so to a small 
 minority. There is nothing in any other part of Canada or the States where a monopoly 
 
6 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 |i E 
 
 
 is given to the few like here. What we want here is a hardy class of industrious 
 working people to come and settle here with their families. Many have come with their 
 families but they could not get a license and then they are under the thumb of men 
 who only give small pay, for they get Chinamen and Indians next to nothing. This 
 system is driving away the best of our people. The only way you can keep them is to 
 give them licenses. 
 
 Mr. HiGOiNS. — What change would you suggest ? 
 
 Witness. — I think you should give a license to every British subject who applies 
 for one. A man who puts up 100 or '200 brls. of salmon will help settle our country. If 
 this plan was adopted this c(juntry would be settletl thickly and it would drive out the 
 Chinamen. 
 
 Mr. Hkjoins. — You were one time, I think, largely in the pickling line ? 
 
 Witness.— Yes, I have pickled and salted salmon and sent them to all parts of 
 the world. I shipped salmon on the old "Dominion,'" probably you reniinbcr her. That 
 was when I first .sent to the Australian markets. I then went into partnership with 
 Ewen ife Wood and we bought out ]Mr. Legg and then sold out to Ewen. 
 
 Mr. HiGOiNH. — Where did you catch your fish ? 
 
 Witness. — Well, T fished in the mouth of the river and away up above Ladner's. 
 
 Mr. Hkjgins. — Where did you sell ? 
 
 Witness. — Oh, I sold over here, not far away. 
 
 Mr. Hir.GiNS. — Where did you clean your fish ? 
 
 Witness. — On the l)ank of the river. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS. — Always on the bank of the river ? Was it where the offal could go 
 into tlie river ? 
 
 Witness. — Yes, tliere was no other place to put it. There seems to he no idea but 
 putting it in the river ; still, it should be put elsewhere — it would be good to put on 
 the land, would it not. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — They say not ; tliat has been tried and found a failure years ago. 
 
 W^it.vess. — Yes ; it was tried, but the smell was most objectionable and it was a 
 failure Now, I think, if the offal was put in scows and carried out to deep water it 
 would be at once carried away and give no trouble. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — What effect do you tiiink it has on salmon ? What becomes of it? 
 
 Witness. — Oh, I don't think it hurts the salmon. It goes in the river, and there 
 are thousands and thousands of little fish that eat up a great deal of it. 
 
 Mr. HiGcuNS. — What kind of fish are they? 
 
 Witness — Mainly suckers and such like. As far as its doing any injury to the 
 fish I don't think that it does any harm, but other matters, such as sawdust, I think, 
 do harm. 
 
 Mr. HiGcjiNS. — Did you ever dredge near a salmon cannery and find any heads or 
 putrid matter in the water 1 
 
 Witness.— Oh, yes ; I have dipped up salmon heads, guts, <kc., but if stirred up it 
 all goes in twenty-four hours. AVe have a five knot current here, and two tide:: in 
 twenty-four hours, and a pure stream of cold water coming from the mountains. 
 
 Mr. HiGfJiNS. — Did you ever go up to the head-waters of the Eraser River at a 
 time when fish were dying, and see many ? 
 
 Witness. — Yes; I have seen them in tliou.sands, dead and dying, and from the 
 way in which the heads anil tails of the dying ones were worn and bruised it would be 
 impossible for these ilsh to get up or back alive. 
 
 Mr. Higgins.- Then wliat becomes of them ; do they go to increase the already 
 large amount of offal in the rivei* below ? 
 
 Witness. — Yes ; but they are mostly swept away. I have seen them in a few 
 places down here- -in some very thick — but the current takes them away. I have seen 
 spawning salmon in the Thompson Kiver and other place;;, and have seen them rooting 
 up places tf) spawn, and there is anotliei- point about it, I do not think it well for this 
 country to have a law protecting the trout. For connnercial purposes they are no good, 
 and they really destroy more salmon spawn than anything else. They root up the 
 spawning places and eat the spawn and also the little fish, and are very destructive. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHEBT COMMISSION. 
 
 Mr. Armstkong. — For what purpose, Mr. Wise, would you require a license to 
 fish — for canning, saltinj,', freezing, or .sending fresh fish away '! 
 
 WiTXKSS. — Oh, I think if a man wants a license he will be sure to sell his fish to a 
 cannery. Now, when I was with Ewtjn we ran to our full cai>acity, and then had tubs 
 ready and ne\er threw away fish. 
 
 ^fr. AKMSTKONf!. — Well, now, you say every person should have a license ; would 
 that not tend to decrease the fish ? 
 
 Witness. — Oh, no ; I think they are just as plentiful as ever they were, just as 
 many as hjiig ago. Then you ha\ e a check on the fishing, namely, the close time. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstkonc!. — But you would like to j)ack up on Sunday what you catch on 
 Saturday ? 
 
 WiTNKss. — Oh, well, it is necessary to work on Sundays in this country. 
 
 Mr. AinisTROMi. — The main point I want to get at is this : You say that the 
 fish that go up ncvei- return, and that as long as sufficient nundu'is get up to spawn in 
 sutlicient ciuantities, it is enough to keep up the .supply in the river? 
 
 WiTN'icss. — 1 don't think our large spi-ing salmon ever return. They go up 400 or 
 500 miles, and are the best kind vo be allowed to breed. 
 
 Mr. .\ii.M.sTRo\<i. — It is your opinion, then, that if oOO boats were fishing there 
 would i>e just as many fish as if but fifty boats were fishing'? 
 
 WiTXKss.- -Oil, well, I w(»uld hardly say that; of course the more they are fishing 
 the moie fish must be caught, but I do not think any harm could be done to the salmon 
 in the Fraser River. They are just as plentiful now as when I came here in 186l'. 
 
 ]Mr. AuMSTROVfi. — They are just as plentiful now as when only forty or fifty boats 
 were fishing? 
 
 WiTXKss. — Yes ; they are just as plentiful, but the spawning beds should be 
 watched and protected. 
 
 Mv. AViLMOT. — You state that you applied for licenses, and could get none ; what 
 was the cause ? Was it because all the licenses were taken up 1 
 
 WiTXKss. — T applied to Air. Mowat for ten licenses — well, says he, you cant get 
 them, but put in your application. I waited, but I got no licenses. 
 
 Air. AViLMOT. -Have you ever assigned any cause why you did not get them? AVas 
 it from a personal point, or were all the licenses given out ? 
 
 AViTNKss. — ^AV'ell, I never followed it up, anyway I didn't get them. 
 
 Air. AVii.MOT. — Are you a farmer, you say the farmers shoidd not get licenses? 
 
 AN'iTXKs.s. — But y(m dont understand this country. There are many people settled 
 along the river, but who always depend ujjon the river — they don't farm. 
 
 ]Mr. AViLMOT. — But then do you think that a settler living as you state should pay 
 as much for his licen.se as another person engaged in commercial ti'afiic ? 
 
 AViTXKSs. — I am hardly j)repai'ed to answer that. I think in this way : I think 
 the license fee should be as low as possible, nothing more tlian enough to defray 
 expenses. 
 
 Air. AVii.MOT.— AVell, do you think i?2 too high? 
 
 AViTXRSs. — Oh, no, S- is nothing at all. 
 
 Mr. AA"u,MOT. — A^'ery well ; now as to the mouth of the river : is it not the most 
 destructive place for killing fish ? 
 
 AA'^iTXi'.ss. — Yes, it is the worst place. 
 
 Mr. Armstroncj. — You might define the mouth of the river as it really is for your 
 fishing purposes? 
 
 AViTXKSs. — AVell, the limit .should be as ncai- the mouth as possil)le. 
 
 Mr. AV^iLMOT. — Yes ; but where is the mouth of the river, is it four miles from the 
 lighthouse ? 
 
 AVnxKss.— -There are two points of land at the mouth- it should be from one to the 
 other. 
 
 Air. AViLMOT. — Then you are under the impression that fishing at the mouth has 
 a tendency to drive fish away. 
 
 AViTNKSs. — ^Yes, it has a tendency. Indians have told me that they have seen fish 
 in other places forced away from the mouth of our river. 
 
8 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Then you think excessive fishing at the moutli drives fish to other 
 points ? 
 
 Witness. — Yes, it drives tlieni awjiy. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — And this injures the fisheries ? 
 
 Witness. — Yes, certainly. Tliosc; fish would otherwise come into th(* river. 
 
 Ihj Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Now about the net — what depth of ne do you fish ? — A. Well, \ think you 
 should leave the net to the fishernien. There are snags in the river — you cannot fish 
 very deep nets. 
 
 Q. Yes, but what I want to j^et at is — there is no limitation at present to the depth 
 of net. Now there are many nets across the river of a certain deyitii ; does this not act 
 as a wall ? Should not the depth be regulated as well as the length ? Do you not think 
 the deptn should be fixed '] — A. I am not prepared to say — the net should be left to the 
 fishermePi 
 
 y. Tiien would you give fishermen free liberty to fish with what nuist practically 
 be a barricade to fish ? — A. Well, but let me tell you the Fiaser ]»iver is full of snag.s. 
 You cannot fish a very deep net, and I have found that most of the fish will strike in 
 from the middle up. Not one in ten will be caught from the middle down. 
 
 Q. Well, but some are caught — if we regulate a certain depth some would escape. 
 At pr<>sent you sweep e\erytlung b(>foi'e you, do you not? — A. Well, very few fish are 
 caught from the middle of the net down. T dont care much about the net. I think 
 the net is a small miiltei'---we can catch all the tish we want with fifty mesh nets. 
 
 Q. Did I uiuhn-stand you to say that you think the canners have too large a 
 monopoly of tlu; river'/ A. Oli, no, I didn't say that. Oh, no, the canners have got 
 all the licenses, l)ut J do say that every hoiiO, Jide British subject shoi'^d have a license 
 if he wants to fish. 
 
 Q. Then y( 'i think if there were more licenses issued there would be more settlers 
 come along tiie river' — A. Yes; tluit would be the result. I say, give licenses to all 
 who want them- to eveiybody. You see wc ha\e Japs, Chinamen and all sorts of rifl- 
 rafi", and what we want is that oui' own good countrymen living here should get licenses 
 if they want then>. 
 
 (.}. Do you think it advisable to issue licenses to, say, young men who may fit out a 
 boat and then get Chinamen to fish it for them 1 — A. Yes ; everyone should have a 
 license — you can't prevent a man from hiring whom he likes. 
 
 Q. And you are under the impression that the ofi'al is not injurious to fish 1 A. 
 No ; it is not injurious to salmon - of course it is injurious to other things. 
 
 Q. Yes? — injurioiis to tiie farmer and settler along the river? — A. Well, I would 
 not say to whom it is injurious. It is ])rol)ably more or less injurious to people along 
 the river; but it is not injurious, 1 believe, to the salmon. 
 
 Q. You think that there are great numbers of little fish that eat up the otfal ? 
 What is tile size of these fish? — A. Oh, from half an inch to six and eight inches long. 
 
 Q. Do you think it possibk* for these little fish to eat the heads of salmon thrown 
 in the river? — A. Oh, well, you get several hundred hungry little fellows eating at the 
 head of a salmon, and 1 tell you it soon goes. 
 
 Q. Do you think this ofi'al lemains at the bottom of the river? — A. Well, no; I 
 don't think it remains there ; it fioats ofi" — the cui'ront takes it away. 
 
 Q. Now, iiow about the Sunday close time? — A. 1 do not think there should be 
 any change. 
 
 Q. IJut at present six hours are worked on Sunday ; do you think this should be 
 continued? — A. I think that is all right — I am not .so conscientious as all that. 
 
 Q. Then there is a portion of Sunday when you should fish and a portion when 
 you should not fish, eh ? — A. Well, 1 think there should be one day of rest ; perhaps it 
 would be as well to have no fishing on Sunday. 
 
 y. Is there anything further you would like to say ? -A. No ; only to repeat that 
 our peoi)le should be able to get licenses if they want them - that is the great trouble. 
 
 % 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 9 
 
 J. BATCHELOR, of New Westminster, presented himself bofore the Commission, 
 and was duly sworn. 
 
 Witness. — I was connected with the British Cannery hist year, and T wisli to 
 make a statement before you. We are out of the canning business now, but F come 
 before you because I tliink it my duty to come and say wliat I think aljout these 
 licenses. Now last year there were several men came from Newfoundland and we 
 put them on the river with othei- Hshermen. They were good fishermen — they fished for 
 us and we were perfectly satisfied with them. They n^fused to go out to work on 
 Sunday night. The wiiole reason of the desire for Sunday night fishing is to get fish 
 to keep the cannery busy on Monday morning. These men refused to go out on Sunday 
 night until aftt-r midnight. They are good men in every respect and for the last two 
 or three years have been ajiplying for licenses but could never get them. Now there 
 are others that we ha\e who go ofl" to Seattle and other i)laces and work in the States 
 and yet they can get licenses. This is very hard. These Xewfoundlanilers are a very 
 desirable jteople to get out hei'e ; they are fine, iiealthy, strong fellows ; they build 
 houses and are in every way e.xcellent citizens, and yt't they are dei)arred from getting 
 licenses. 
 
 J>y Mr. IIi(j(jins : 
 
 Q. Why did they not get licenses, ^[r. Batchelor ? — A. Well, \ don't know — ^w© 
 applied for them and tried to help them, but we could get nothing. 
 
 Q. Where did they have to apply 'I — A. At the Fisheries office here. I may say 
 that these men are at the present time working on the streets, itc. 
 Ihj Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you think it more desirable to hold out inducements to get solid, substan- 
 tial men to come here to fish ?- A. Yes; being I mud fide I >ritish subjects, all should 
 get licenses. Now, these men can make their own boats and nets ami are in every 
 way entitled to licenses. 
 
 Q. And do you think that fishermen keeping the Sabbath siiould be given a 
 preference ? A. Well, I would not like to say anything as to that — 1 merely came 
 here to give evidence on behalf of these men whom we iiad found .so tlioi'oughly trust- 
 worthy, and whom I consider veiy harshly treated. Fishing and building l)oats and 
 nets is their only occupation, and it is veiy hard indeed to keep them out of licenses. 
 
 Q. Then you think that actual fishermen and /«<;(«. //'/'fishermen should get licenses 
 in pi'cference to all others? A. Yes. 
 
 C^. You are quite of the opinion that a great many peoi)le of that class iiave not 
 Ijeen al)le to get licen.ses. Did you ever hear them express any ojnnion as to why they 
 (lid not get licenses ? — A. Oh, they wcsre not jiersonally objected to. The order came 
 to allow the old fishermen the licenses anil that shut out the others. I am tjuite sure 
 that some of those old ones were not entitleil to these licenses, but still they got them, 
 and the good men were denied licenses. Now, these men talk of going into seal fishing 
 and other occujjation.s, and it is a shame that such good men should be obliged to go 
 away. 
 
 Q. Then you think people who now get licenses are transients — they go away 
 after? — A. Well, T don't know exactly enough to .say that. 
 By Mr. Ariiustromj : 
 
 Q. AVho represents the cannei-y you sold ? — A. The Anglo-American Packing 
 Company. 
 
 Q. But who is in charge of it now. -A. Mi', hjuglish is managei'. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Are you of the impression, Mr. r»atchelor, that it is injurious to have too 
 nuich fishing at the mouth of the river, and that it prevents the entrance of fish into 
 the river ? -A. Well, Mi'. Wilmot, if I was imw in the business I woulil give 
 information, but as I am now out of it altogether, f would rather not give you 
 information. 
 
 Q. Well, but I think it would not be out of place for you now, as a disinterested 
 party, to give us your opinion ? — A. Well, T prefer not to say anything now — we are 
 
 '■■■'. ■] 
 
10 
 
 MARINE AND FI8HERIE8. 
 
 out of the business. My only object in eominj? here was for tlie sake of those people 
 whom we employed and who 1 consider were very haishly treated. T would not care 
 to speak on any other points, as J now have no connection with the business. 
 
 Q. Well, l»ut, Mr. Jiatchelor, may I put it in this way : Your object is to see 
 good lishermen come here — now would it not be equally as well if there is too excessive 
 lishing in any portion of the river, that it nnght interfere with these men, and why not 
 give us the bentit of your (tpinion on this matter ?— A. Well, I would certaiidy pi-efer 
 not speaking, however, if I am called upon later I shall be glad to say what I think. 
 About the men of whom I have spt)ken, I felt it my duty to come and represent the 
 great hardshij> undei- which they have laboured. They cannot do much other work, 
 and hav«> bt!en born and bred fishermen. 
 
 Q. Do the canners employ these men? -A. I am sure they would if they knew 
 them, but they are not yet well known. Some have been already engaged — ,they are 
 wholly iisheiinen and are excellent men. 
 
 //// ^fl•. Ar}uittronif : 
 
 Q. Could you see these peoi)lo and a.sk them to come here ? Their evidenc would 
 be valuable. — A. Yes, I can ; I will see them. T'll make a point to do so. 
 
 Jity Mr. WiJmot : 
 
 Q. Did these peoj)le apply to Mr. McNab for licensns last year ? — A. Yes, they 
 applied, but they were told they could not get them. 
 
 By Mr. JIi(/<jitii* : 
 
 Q. Where was your cannery situated ? — -A. Just below ^Ii-. English's. 
 Q. P>ut where (lid you lish ? At the mouth of the river ? — A. Well, all the way 
 down, often out in the Gulf. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. Wilmnt : 
 
 Q. Where did you catch the greatest nundiei- of tish when you were fishing 1 — A. 
 Through Canoe Pass dowii to the mouth of the river. 
 
 Q. The best fishing then is just at the mouth of the river, is it not ? — A. Well, it 
 just depends what kind of run tliere is. Tn a g.iod run you can catch just as many 
 ojjposite the town here. 
 
 <J. What do you think of the regulation of nets? Would you advocate restricting 
 them to a certain depth? — A. Well, it altogether depends on the location in the river. 
 The most established mode of fishing is, ^ hink, with forty meshes extension. 
 
 Q. What kind had they before ? — A. It entirely depends on the channel of the 
 river, .some more, some less. We used thirty, thirty-five and forty. 
 
 Q. Would a forty-mesh net be twenty feet deep when in the water ? — A. A mesh is 
 about five inches, and the present mesh used is very suitable for the fishing. I desire 
 to keep nothing back, but being out of the business now I don't think I should go into 
 any matters that do not affect me. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Artuxtrony : 
 
 Q. How far is Ladner's from the mouth of the river ? — A. Well, I think the first 
 buoy would be the mouth of the river. I don't know the distance from Ladner's. T 
 don't kni>w how far it is. T suppose about a mile oi- two. T really don't know. 
 
 Jilj Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What do you think of everyone having a license ? — A. Well, T don't wish to go 
 into this (piestion. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Higyiiix : 
 
 Q. What do you do with your offal ? — A. We put it in the river. 
 
 Q Do you think it hurtful to fish ? — A. Oh, no, not at all ; it never hurt the fish. 
 It is taken right away at once by the tide. We never .see the otFal washed back. We 
 dumped tons and tons of it and it all went away. 
 
 I :ii 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 11 
 
 mel of the 
 
 Q. But does il not leuve deposits 1 — A. Soinctiiiu-s, hut it all fjucs. Ytui must 
 reinemher we liiive to drink that water ; it is hraokish.liut we catoh rainwater as well, and 
 I can tell v<»u we don't want to hurt tluj water, 'i'lieii look at the nund)ers of dead lish 
 up the river, at Chilliwaek, ite. There are i,'reat lunnhers of them, and they don't seem 
 to hurt the river. The crows and other birds seek after them and eat many of them. 
 
 Q. Well, but do these dead tish ever oome down the river? — A. Oh, I suppose 
 some do, but [ never took notiee of them ; they all st-emed to disappeai'. 
 
 Q. You think tishinjj; should he ucjnfined to Hritish subjects only ? — A. Well, I 
 don't .see how any one else has any rijLcht to take tish. 
 
 Jh/ Mr. WiliHot: 
 
 Q. What class of people did you generally employ in your factory /- A. Chinamen, 
 Klootchinen. 
 
 t^. Whom? A. Indian women and Chinamen, and then the tishennen were all ' 
 kinds : (ireeks, Italians, lii-., apait from the whites. 
 
 Q. What proportion of these (xreek.s, ifec, would th(>re be -that is, in pr<>})ortion to 
 the whites? A. Well, it is impossible for me to tell. We have not time to l)otlier to 
 see who these people are. 
 
 Q. What nundter uf hands did you employ in your cannery ? — A. You will find it 
 all given in the census returns. I could not .say. We ndght have had 100 Chinamen, 
 and forty or fifty Klootchmen, anil about eighteen or twenty boys. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. WUmof : 
 
 Q. Do you think twenty boats sufficient foi' an oidinary cannery? -A. Some years 
 it is, sonu^ years it is not. 
 
 Q. Then you consider it advisable to decrease the nund)er of boats according to the 
 .sea.son? — A. Well, I would not like to give any opinion on that. I do not want to 
 interfere with anything connected with the fishing business, because we are out of it. 
 I only wanted to speak for the better class of men. It is not right that these men should 
 walk about with their hands in their pockets and all sorts of riff-ratl' get licenses. 
 
 By Mr. A rniKfrong : 
 
 Q. Could 3'ou get these people here ? AVe would like to .see those who are repre- 
 I sentative men ? — A. I will be glad to make it a point to see them and tell them to 
 come in. 
 
 A'.V Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Well, what do you think of the Sunday fishing? J)n you advocate fishing on 
 Sunday ?— A. Well, I wouldn't say ; \ simply say our men would not fish for us on 
 Sunday. 
 
 T W. HERRING, of New Westminster, appeared before the Coinniissi«»n and pre- 
 I sented the following written statement, which was ordered to be entered in the record of 
 proceedings : — ■ 
 
 ' " To the Honourable Board of Fishery C(mnnissioners. 
 
 " Gkntlk.men, — Knowing that you are now sitting in this city on the Fisheries 
 I Connnission, may I be allowed, as an old resident and fisherman of Jiritish C<jkunbia, to 
 I offer a few suggestions which would be an undoubted benefit for the fisheries in parti- 
 |cular and British Columbia in general. 
 
 " 1. I should suggest that no discrinunation should be shown in the cost of licenses on 
 jtlie different rivers of British Columbia, but they should l)e all of an e(|ual cost and good 
 on any river of British Cohunbia, cost to Ije determined by the Fishery Comnnssioners, 
 [whether $') or $20, and that no license should be granted to any one not born a British 
 jsubject. This would keep out Japanese, Chinamen, and other foreigners who are no 
 jgood to the country. 
 
 " 'J. I would suggest that nets for spring fishing for the first two months in the 
 jyeai' should be of an uniform depth and of not more than fifty meshes. 
 
la 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 " ."?. That liciMiHOH sluiuld b*' iion-trnnsfcrablc, as several have been issuwl out of the 
 limits to |)arties who are not fislieniieii, to the (h>triineiit of the tishermeii. 
 
 "4. That the river should bo loeked as at present, luit that licenses siiould 1m' iTioro 
 equally divided than at present, consistent with the limitation. Canneries should be 
 limited to fifteen lieenses ajnece, which with the ])r.'sent canneries on the Eraser Itiver, 
 twenty-two (22) and two more making; application ("J I) would allow 120 or more licensee 
 to be distrii)uted anion^ the tishermon without causin;; any harm to the cannery jieople, 
 
 " *). i would reconnuend that fresh tish dealers, salteries and tish-fre«v,inf; establish- 
 nuMits be limited to five licenses apiece, provided they can show to the satisfaction of 
 the fisheries inspector that they have at least th«^ necessary eijuipnu-nts for salting.' 
 not less than 200 barrels and that the boat and nc^ts are their individual pioper'tj', ami 
 that if they cannot come up to these rej^ulations no license should be j,'r.inted to them. 
 
 " t). I woidd further say that thest^ regulations should apply to all rivers of Jiritish 
 ' Columbia and that all rivers should be f^foverned by these iej,'nlut ions. 
 
 "7. J would further su<,'}.;est that th(! present dose season for trout should bo rc- 
 ver.M'd that it should open from the 1st of October to the 1st of March only, as 
 our markets are at that time bare of lish on this coast and tiout are only fit for the 
 market then. Alsft that there should be no limit to the (juantity taken, as they are 
 very destructive to the suhnon spawn. 
 
 (.S;i;d.) "T. W. HKIJHING. 
 
 " Ni:w Wkstminsteii. 19th February, 1802." 
 
 The above communication was read by tlu' s»>cretary pre\ ious to its beinj^ oiHlercil 
 to be entered in the record. 
 
 Mr. Hkrhino was <luly sworn. 
 Jii/ Mr. //iiji/iiis : 
 
 Q. We will be ylad if you will just answer a few (piestions that will bcj)ut to you, 
 Can a man under the present re<^ulatioiis by any .species of subterfuge or undeihand 
 work, hold more than one license? Can it be done .' A. No, sir. 1 do not think it can 
 be done. Any man getting one license, he could not do .so without violating the law, 
 except li(^ got more than one license. 
 
 (^. How could beget more than one? — A. Well, the cannery people might number 
 the boats in duplicate aiul so give a num UKjre than one. It has Ihm'u done under tlio 
 present system. 
 
 Q. Why is there no check upon these people? Are the licen.ses not stamped? — A. 
 No, they are not stamped. A counterfoil is k«!pt by the fisheries inspector. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the practice of having Sunday as a dose time? A. 
 From 12 o'clock Saturday till 12 o'clock Sunday night? I think it very good 1 will be 
 willing to abide by that regulation. 
 
 ii. Ydu .say in your papei' that nets should be of an uniform depth f>f fifty meshes, 
 for the first two months of the year, why do you say that? -A. I>ecau.se we aie fisliiiii,' 
 in tidal water and the water conies very slack. Some parties use nets of from fifty to 
 .seventy nif-shes, because they find it aclvisable to use them they use these nets below 
 the city ; from here down to the (Julf, sixty and seventy meshes are used aiuI more fish 
 can l)e caught, and they can double and treble us in one week this way. There is ii 
 decided opinion amongst the iishermen that they shoukl use any kind of net witii 
 which they can catch fish. 
 
 il What do you tliiidv of (isliing outside the mouth of the rivei- ? Do you think it 
 injures the runs of fish in the river? — A. Well, T could not say. I would not think it 
 injui'ious in a big year ; it might be in a bad year. Theie are so many fish the can- 
 neries get swamped with fish, and men get salmon they cannot handle. One tlirow of 
 the net fills the boats and then they go to the cannery. 1 have known a boat to be 
 filled at 9 a.m., and as the Indians are paitl wages they don't bother to do any more that 
 nioniing, and often wait until 2 oi- 3 o'clock before taking them to the cannery. 
 
 Q. Then in a short season it would be injurious to fish outside ? — A. In a short, 
 year the nets are constantly working and it would be injurious. 
 
BHIT18U COLUMBIA K[gIIERT COMMISSION. 
 
 18 
 
 eiiiy orddMMl 
 
 //// Mr. A nils fro lit/ : 
 
 Q. Aiul tlx' majority t»f years are short ? A. Wttll, w»' liavo «lill'<'i"«?iit years — next 
 year is oxpocteil to bo a bif,' year. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. What was '8')?— A. '89 was the l)i« year, 'DO the next and in 'Dl the (ish were 
 just double what tiiey w«'re the fourth yeai- bet'oi'e. 
 
 //// Mr. ArniHtromj : 
 
 (J. Now, it' this year's eateh is doulde wliat it was t'oui' yea?s a<,'o, you will loiisider 
 that the tish are iiiereasinj;, will you not ? A. If the tish are double what they were 
 four years ago I will believe the hatcheries are dojni,' ,ii;reat ;j;ood. 
 
 liij Mr. Wilmnt : 
 
 Q. You will be willing,' to <,'o in for more (»f them then, will you ? A. Yes ; it will 
 be sulHcient j)roof of their eflieetiveness. 
 
 //// Mr. Ifi<iiiins : 
 
 i.i. What are you now ? Do y«ni work for a cannery ,'— A. 1 am a lisherman now, 
 
 Q. As to this oli'al that f^oes into the rivt;r, do you know anything aljout it? — A. 
 Yes, ! know something about it. 
 
 Q. What is its ell'ect on (ishing? - A. I think at the mouth of the liver its efVect is 
 V(M'y bad. Down there it floats down and lines tho banks and gets foul of the nets— - 
 heads and guts, &c. It destroys the nets more tlian salmon do and makes the river 
 water lilthy -not tit for use unless cooked if you werc^ to drink it in the cannery 
 season it would make you sick. We used to cook it like tea in order to drink it. 
 
 Q. Ts it not a fact that many tish die up the river? They become olVal then too, do 
 they not? — A. Ye.s, but I have never seen many of them, theiy go to pieces. There was 
 a time before the hot springs on tho Harrison Jiiver wei'e closed the ti.sh wcudd come up 
 and leap and jump into the air and fall dead. Thert^ were hundi'cfla and hundi-eds of 
 tlicnj and we used to tish there and oft^Mi ])icked them up half cooked — after death they 
 were just as good as if they had been caught in the iitsts. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. Wilniot : 
 
 Q. Did you work in a cannery 1 — A. Y^es. 
 
 Q. What was the average size of the tish caught ? A. Some were about 7 pounds 
 and some about pftunds. 
 
 t^. All through they would average about S pounds, then ? — A. Yes, about that. 
 
 (.j. How many tish are taken to make an ordinary (;an ? — A. W(^ll, nine \\>i\\ go to 
 
 la case, with this average it would be five and three-csighths cans tp a fish. You see there 
 
 is the head off ami the guts out and the tail ofV. Sometimes they used to use the tail part. 
 
 A machine cuts the fish into parts to fit the cans, but in good years the part near tho 
 
 I tail all goes as ofFal. 
 
 lijj ^fr. // if/I/ins : 
 
 Q. How long does it take before this otl'al disappears? — ^A. Well, offal is .sonie- 
 Itliing like a body that goes in the river -it tak('s so many days l)efore it disappears. 
 Some time ago the caiinerymen used to make cribs to kee[) this otl'al in, l)ut now it goes 
 [to the bottom and rises after a time when the bladders burst. 
 
 Q. Well, now, is it a fact that other risn eat this offal? — A. Oh, ytss ; thousands of 
 [thoni ; suckers and sturgeon are feeding on it all tlu^ time. It is great fun fishing for 
 sturgeon ; they come to eat the ott'al, and at Ewen's cannery we have often had great 
 [sport fishing for them. 
 
 % J/r. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You state in your paper that fifteen licenses are sufHcient for a cannery 1 — A. 
 Ye.s, sir. 
 
u 
 
 MARINE AND FI8IIERIEB. 
 
 l^. What (1«» you mean — that tlicy can carry oii a fair husiiicss with that iiiimh<>i' / 
 — A. Yes; they can |)r<)tfct thcmufdvcs. They can carry on l)U«iiiesN with Hfteeii 
 liconsf M : they will ;,'et as many lish as if they ha*l twenty. 
 
 ii. Then, if they ha<l forty licenses it would hut prevent the sale of a large quantity 
 of tish fn»ni outsiders to them ,' A. If they were allowed forty licenses, or even twenty- 
 tive, in a j^ood year it would lun them to their full cajiacity. Now, for instance, when the 
 limitation was made arxl ."{."iO licenses wer»( f,'iven to canners, that was a f,'ood yt^ar, and 
 Mr. I<lwen was allowed twenty hoats of his own. He was scared ht? would not get 
 enough tish, and he had twenty-two outside hoats I was one of them myself and tl»c 
 contract was that he was t(» take «'acli and every good tish j)ut on his wharf, and when 
 the tish ran thick he could not take them, and so he had to lay up his own hoats, ant! 
 he even went so far as to threaten all of us that tlu; cannery would he I'uined and run 
 down, and he tried to stop us from fishing. 
 
 t,). Then the twenty hoats of his own would have heen (|uite sutlicienl ? -A. Yes: 
 hut he was trying to make too sure ; the twenty would have heen (juite enough, hut he 
 wanted tish from outsiders too. 
 
 (.^. Then you think twenty hoats would he quite enough for any cannery ? — A. Yes. 
 
 (^. Well now, when they get such large (juantities of tish what do they do svitli 
 them '/- -A. Well, if they have outsiders more than they can control, they liaul otl' tlieir 
 own hoats. 
 
 Q. When they get more tish than they want, do they ever throw them away ? — A. 
 \V'<!ll, not now. I ha\e known it to he done though ; scow loads at a time weredumpetl 
 overhoard ; these were caught, and when hrought to the cannery it was found to he 
 .shut down until they were ready to go on. 
 
 il. You dont know of that heing done of late years? — A. No, not now; they 
 withdraw tluur own hoats. 
 
 CJ. When tish are vtuy plentiful do they make the same immher of cans out of one 
 tish ?— A. Oh, well, they cann<»t help themselves ; the knives cut all alike. 
 
 Q. But could it iu)t \w done ? -A. No. 
 
 Q. A^'ell, hut when the lish are coming in very plentiful i.s it not probable they 
 would cut otl' more of the head and tail than when tish are scarce ? — A. No ; they don't 
 do that ; the tish are always cut the same way. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. But you have said already that in a plentiful year three inches of the tail is 
 thrown away 1 — A. Yes, that is true, the last piece goes otl" instead of into the can. 
 
 BU Mr. WUinot : 
 
 Q. And in small yeai-s this would he used up 1 — A. \''es. Now T will give you an 
 instance. Just imagine a boat to bring in 1,000 tish -one boat for one shift — aVjout 
 three hauls of the net. i was afraid I was going to be cut ofl' and tishcd for five 
 hours, r took 1,014 tish and delivered tlunn to the cannery. 
 
 Q. But if all others were catching tish iu ^he same proportion would it not over- 
 stock the caneory ? — A. Oh, yes, certaiidy, l.uit il in they shut down and limited us. 
 
 ii. A\'hat did you do with the tish that were not taken ? — A. Oh, they took all the 
 fish we caught that day. 
 
 t^. AN'hat did you get for the fish? — A. Ten cents each. 
 
 C^. What year was that ?— -A. The year before last — the first year the limit was on 
 —1889, 1 think. 
 
 Q. Yes; that would be 1S89. What was the price of tish this last year? — A. 
 There was a difference. Mr. Ewen paid 20 cents, others paid Vl\. 
 
 Q. What nuule the ditl'erence ? — A. Well, when the syndicate was formed on the 
 Eraser liiver, he had arran;L'ements made with them that they were to get his pack for 
 three years, and the canneries they bought out — the proprietors of these canneries — 
 they were to run them the tame as before, with a certain interest in the cannery, or 
 sold out entirely, with the ag -eement that they were not to build -j-ny more canneries 
 on the Eraser River in three years, and outsiders who didn't come into this arrange- 
 ment — Mr. Ewen, he reservec his own cannery, but all the rest were included — well. 
 
HRITiail COLUMBIA PISIIKIIY COMMISSION. 
 
 16 
 
 I cftii't 8tty for Mr. ToiKl, lie whs, I think, outside of it. ft was a special arniiii,'eineiit, 
 but it tlid not work s»>nieli(iw <»r otlittr ; and .Mr, Kwen, lie iiad sold 11,000 easiw of 
 salmon liefoi'e the flshin;,' started, and I suppose he knew his «>\vn laisiness and under- 
 stocxl the eajiacity of his eanneiy, and nf ((lui'ie he paid tor lish aeeurdinjiiy. 
 
 Q. I notice yo\i say in your meinorainluni that all tin? licenses shoulil lie the same 
 cost. S<inie. then, are dilVerent / ,\. Yes, on the Fiaser Kiver it is ^I'O, and on the 
 Skcena it is ir<o. 
 
 (J. .Are the same caiineiynuMi c iiya^ed on the .Skeena a^< on the Kraser / 
 A. Yes, sir: and why shoulil we not Ke .dlowed to tish on the Skeena as w»'ll 
 as canneryuien. We are excluded. 
 
 (,j>. lUit do you mean to say that it any man on the Skeena wants to net a license 
 ho cannot do so if he pays the .15") I A. No, sir ; hut I contend we ha\i' Just as 
 uuicli ri;tlit to tish there as canneryiuen, if we like. Now, last yea:- I wanted to tish on 
 the Sket >a for saltin;; purposes, and made ajpplication. I Lfot a i "ply on the loth 
 July, refu.-'in;.', after all the lisiunL; was over. Now, my l»i-other lishc^ i>r. the Skeeiui, 
 and ho tells nu! that out of lOO lictuises there oidy forty wi'w taken up liy actual 
 (Ishermen. The canneryuien |nit in Indian names and i;ot these licenses hesides their 
 own. 
 
 i}. [n other words the caniiers ^'ot all the licensesf A. Yes, sir, virtually they 
 did. 
 
 C^. What do you mean liy the river heiii;,' locked'/ I don't (piite understaiul that. 
 — A. Why, th(! present system of limitation of licenses. 
 
 Cn.\lliMA\. Oil, yes; T see. Well, now have you anything; further to tell us? A. 
 No, sir ; I think [ have gone over all the [xiints on which \ wished to speak. 
 
 uiit was oil 
 
 Jt)HN K. L()l»l), of Now Westminster, afttu- being duly sw(un, prcsontod the fol- 
 lowing written statement which was read and ordered to be entered in the record of 
 proceedings : 
 
 "(Undated.) 
 
 "iSiKs, -The cannors, tishormen, and those interested in 'he tisliiiig indu.stiy can 
 appreciate the action of the department in sending a Commission to inipiire into the 
 wants of the tishernieii, and if possible to me(!t their views so as make the industry a 
 success. The men who f(U'm the body of iislK^rmcn are, with few exceptions, not a class 
 to be recommended, being ctjnstituted of every nation, cretKl and character. U^iider the 
 present license law these men get licenses, while men from the Eastern I'rovinces, Ncnv- 
 fouiidland and Scotland ai'c ])roIiibited— these men being bom tislicruien and coming to 
 the country hoping to follow their occupation are disappointed and are forced ti> turn 
 their hand to someothcM- occupation for a living and their services ar(^ lost to thiMlevclop- 
 uieiit of the Hsliing industry. On this account, if no other, the limit should bt; taken 
 from licenses ; any Jiritish subject being a lisherman and intending to tish, on making 
 ap[)lication should obtain a license, the pi'ic(! to be not more than .S"), and for the year. 
 lAir the protection of tlu; salmon, the close time from Saturday at (i a.m. to Sunday at 
 G p.m., is suilicient for all purposes. The pre.sent si/e of nets are well suited for their 
 })urpose. There should be no embargo on the taking of .salmon trout or steel-heails, 
 lake or river trout in the season ; numbers now being taken against the law, few more 
 would be taken if the law allowed. They art; very numerous and the most, deadly enemy 
 of the salmon fry, in fact their taking should \)v encouraged and .so increa.se the run of 
 .salmon. As regards oH'al from canneries, when we consider the great amount of .salmon 
 which die and putrify on all tli(> streams ruiining into the Fraser Uiver away to the foot 
 of the Uocky Mountains, the cannery offal is as a drop in the bucket, in fact the large 
 portion of otl'al consumed by the large and small tish, and only that dumjied in still and 
 .shallow water can be counted injurious to health and very slightly injurious to the .sai- 
 nion. Sawdust' and other oft'al is far more injurious and should be prohibited being 
 put in the rivei-. 
 
16 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 '!!.!'' 
 
 " The Hatcher I/. — The present site is not the best. Harrison Lake is preferable for 
 all purposes. The time for taking ova is too late. Ova has been taken from the salmon 
 after the canners refused to can them. The tirst run is V)est and strongest. Spring 
 salmon should be propagated as they are the most marketable and no attempt has been 
 made to propagate them. 
 
 " Canneries should have ten lie ases each, and then only those in full operation. 
 Markets, five licenses ; freezers, five licenses. They all should depend more on the 
 fiiil ermen." 
 
 (Not signed.) 
 
 Mr. Loud. — Gentlemen, I speak in this manner because T believe it for the benehtof 
 the river, and if we ever want to build up British Columbia with a class of good fisher- 
 men like we have where I came from — I belong to Halifax, N.8. — we should give 
 licenses only to bund fide British subjects, men who would make homes and live here, 
 and help build up the country. The preseiit licensees are mostly foreigners and 
 strangers who come from a distance, but have their names first on the list, and they go 
 away and do no good for the country. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 Q. But how do these people get these licenses ? — ^A. Oh, well, don't ask me that : 
 I don't know, but somehow the inspector we had^ — he that is dead and gone, he was too 
 eager to please and to make things easy for all, and first come was first served. Now, 
 the great trouble has been that the canners have endeavoured to gain complete control 
 of the river. Last year they were working to get Japs here and settle them, and our 
 own people would be done out of all work in connection with the salmon fi.sheries. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 Q. Do I understand you don't limit the number of licenses beyond one to the 
 ordinary fishermen ? For instance, these men who are coming here to settle ; is one 
 license sufficient for them ?— A. When the canneries are working the whole of the fish 
 is given to the canners, and they could always get a sufficient supply of fish from out- 
 side fishermen who would sell the fish, and one license would be ample. 
 
 By Mr. IIig<jins : 
 Q. This traffic in licenses strikes me as a very serious thing 1 — A. Yes, it is, and 
 something should be done. Now, it is this way : Many men succeed in getting licenses, 
 and then they go and sell them to the highest bidder. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you consider that licenses should not be granted to any one except bond 
 fide British subjects intending to fish ? — A. Yes ; only those intending t(» fish. 
 
 Q. Well, now, there is another class — the sm.all farmer who gets a license for $2 1 
 — A. T iiave no objection to any settler getting a license in that manner, but if he goes 
 into traffic and sells to others, he should be on the same footing as all fishermen ; but 
 every resident fishermen and British subject should get a license, if he requires one. 
 
 Q. Now, as regards the canners, would you limit the nuniVjer of canneries 1 — A, 
 No ; let there be no limit ; throw it open to all. The market will regulate the matter. 
 Now, tiiere will be a couple of new canneries put up this year, and T think none of them 
 should be granted more than ten licenses. 
 
 Q. And if they wanted more fish, they should buy them from the fishermen, you 
 think ? — A. Yes, they should— the fishermen can sell to no one else — they must look to 
 the caiuiers for sales. 
 
 Q. And the people employed in the canneries—they are not our own people— not 
 resident citizens l — A. Not one of them, they are all Japs. Chinamen, Klootchies, 
 Siwashes, itc. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Ariiintrong : 
 Q. But they C(juld not afford to employ white men in this work. — A. Yes, sir, they 
 could — I will tell you — in about six weeks they do all their work. Now, what would 1"' 
 
BRITISH COLUMIUA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 17 
 
 a months extra pay to men like the eanneis ? They pay 81 a day to the Indian women 
 and 82, say, to tlie white Ixtys. The extia money for good white men would be a small 
 afl'air to men making their thousands like the caniuM's do. 
 
 (^. But do you know the cost of putting uj) a ease of salmon ? — A. About ■ir-.oO for 
 one case. 
 
 Ml'. ARMSTKONfi. — 1 think it takes .84 nearly. 
 
 liy Mr. Wilinol : 
 
 Q. IIa%"e you been in the canning business ?— A. No, I have not. I am a fishermen. 
 
 Mr. Huitiixs -Oh, well, we can still take evidence from you as to the cannery 
 work. — A. Well, T cannot speak with much authority on that. 
 
 Mr. AuMHTKOX*;. — I don't think your suggestion as to breeding the spring salmon 
 is a go )d idea. 
 
 y\r. WiLMOT. — Well, 1 may say that when we first started bleeding salmon hei'e 
 we thought of taking up tlu; spring fish, but the canners and others said that the other 
 tish was the most desirable. 
 
 ^Ir. Hl(i(;i\s. — Yes, I may say that Mr. Wood at my table to-day said that in 
 i'higland the denumd was for the red tish and that the spring salmon would not take 
 in the English market. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Yes, that is a remarkable fact. I know, when then; at the Inter- 
 national Fisheries Exhibition, Atlantic salmon of a light colour was not thought any- 
 thing of. 
 
 -Air. Loud. — Now, in regard to the hatchery they established here — it might just 
 as Mell work all the year round as not. 
 
 Mr. AViLMOT. — Well, 1 may say on that point I have reconmiended for some time, 
 that we should catch the early run of fish and im})ouiul them until lipe, but somehow 
 tliis view has not prevailed. Now you ha\ e spoken of another tish — the steel-head — is 
 it H salmon 'I — A. It is a salmon very much like the Labrador salmon and the greatest 
 enemy of the commercial salmon. But I do l)eg of you that you will let us catch the 
 trout. They are only brought in in the winter season, but then it is against the law. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Our experience in eastern waters shows that by so much killing of 
 tlie better kind of fish has resulted in the lower kinds increasing and becoming more 
 numerous. 
 
 yiv. LoKU. — Now another point — I do think the licenses should run foi' the whole 
 vcar. 
 
 /)> Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, that would not result in so much danger here as in the east. — A. It would 
 not interfere with the spawning of the salmon, because at other times than the caniu'ry 
 fishing time we would have to go down to the mouth of the river to catch our tish, and 
 we would not prevent the spawning. 
 
 Q. This trout you speak : ■--what is it like? — A. Oh, a big fish, often as heavy as 
 tliiit\ pounds, and very uiuch iik(i the .Scotch and Labrador salmon. 
 
 Q. Have you anything y(>a wish to say further? — A. No, I think I have exhausted 
 iiiy remarks. 
 
 The Commission adjourned at 5.45 p.m. to meet again at 7.30 p.m. 
 
 lOtli February, 1892. 
 
 The Commission assembled at 7.4.'), and at once proceeded to business. 
 
 Fm nt : — Mr. S. Wilmot, in the chair; Mr. Higgins, Mr. Armstrong, and Mr. 
 I Secretary Winter. 
 
 WILLIAM COSTIGAN, of New Westr.iinster, presented himself and was duly 
 Itworn. 
 
 Bii Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (^>. Now, do you desire to give a statement of your views direct ? — A. As far as I 
 
 lean. 
 
 lOc— 2 
 

 18 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 !l 
 
 '!:il 
 
 i f ■" 
 
 Q. Yes, well, niiike tlieiu iis concise as possi))le. — A. I wanted to say that T have 
 been four or five years here fishing on the rivei'. I applied for a license on and off, but 
 could not get one. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. I/itji/itis : 
 Q. To wIkjui did you apply ? — A. To the fisheries inspector. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. AN'us any leason given ? — A. No : except that the number of licenses to be 
 issued had l)een granted. Then 1 see men not fishermen — on the river who get 
 licen.'-es and who sell them to other people for $50. They didn't fish these last two 
 years to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Well, what ne.xt, sii'? — A. Well. T dim't know of anything else — T can't get a 
 license, and T want one. 
 
 />'// Mr. /liffijui.'i : 
 
 Q. Do you know who sold these licenses ? — A man named Ross got a license from 
 another man and paid 850 for it. 
 
 Q. And did he fish under that man's name ? — A. He fished under that man's nanu 
 — he had his l)uat. (Jrant, the man who had charge of the river, sold his license tn 
 another here. 
 
 Q. To whom?- A. To Peter Nelson. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Arni.ttroiKj : 
 
 Q. Who did you say was the first man who got the license ? — A. Well, Uoss gdt 
 the license fi-om another man. 
 
 Q. Could you get him and l)rir\g him here? — A. I could let iiim know. 
 
 -. :.,.ii;'/! J'>jJ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Have you anything further? x\. No, sir, I have nothing fuilher to say. 
 
 Q. You follow the occupation of fishing, you say --if you don't get a license, what j 
 then? — A. T fish for the cannerymen- 1 have fished all my lifetime, pretty near. 
 
 Q. Do you consider the value of a license at !?20 is excessive ?— A. I do. 
 
 Q. Do you consider the value of licenses now granted the canners excessive for 
 them ? —A. It is according to circum.stances. 1 don't say it is too much for them, but j 
 it is for an ordinary fisherman. 
 
 Q. Do you think, in the occupation you wish to enter, that one license is sufficient' 
 — -A. Yes ; one license is sufficient. 
 
 Q. You have had something to do with tin; canneries — now the cannery yuu 
 worked for would have how many licenses? Do you kiuiw?~A. Forty. 
 
 Q. What cannery was that ? — -A. Ewen's — he had two canneries. 
 
 Q. Were both running? A. I don't know — 1 didn't fish alongside the cannery. 
 
 <»}. How did they get foity licen.ses? — A. They had two establishments. 
 
 Q. Do you know the limit for the canneries? — A. Twenty boats last year. 
 
 Q. Are twenty boats sufficient for a cannery? — A. It is all accordingto thecapacitv 
 of the canneiy. 
 
 Q. Well, but take the ordinary cannery — ^are twenty sutticient ?- -A. No; not in 
 proportion. It .shcntld be according to the capacity of the cjinnery. 
 
 Q. IJut suppose a man can fish twice as well as you '"m and lie gets twice as maiiv^ 
 licenses as you?— A. But he cannot fish with two licenses. 
 
 Q. Do you see much ofFal thrown into the river? -A. Well, T don't have muclil 
 chance to see I just catch the fish and put them in the scow. 
 
 Q. You have never fished under a license at all 1 — A. Yes, last year 1 did, but iti 
 it was another man's license. 
 
 Q. Did you buy it then ? - V. No ; we fished on shares. 
 
 u vv 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 19 
 
 at T have 
 cl off, but 
 
 juses to I If 
 (r who get 
 36 last two 
 
 can't get a 
 
 Ihi Mr. WiJmnt : 
 
 Q. What probable numljer of fisli diil you catch witli that one license ? — A. About 
 
 4,500. 
 
 Q. Were the tisli taken from you regularly by the cannery ? -A. Yes, regularly, 
 onlv two (hiys we were limited to catcli only so many. 
 
 Q. Are you in the habit of taking the tish directly to the cannery? — A. Generally 
 we "o H.shing in the morning and often would not get in till night. 
 
 Q. ^^'ere you at any time refused the fish you brought? -A. Not last sunmier. 
 
 Q.' You have been previously ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What was done with those refu.sed ? — A. They were salted. 
 
 Q. They were not thrown away ? — A. I don't know, T never .saw any. 
 
 Q. Have you any further remarks to lay before u.s ?--A. No, sir. 
 
 icense 
 
 from 
 
 mans nauu 
 s license tn 
 
 PETER NELSON, of New Westminstei, appeared and was duly sworn. 
 By Aft: Ifu/fjfins : 
 
 Q. You have been represented as being a man who Iwught a license ; have you it 
 with you ? — A. No, sii', but I have a receipt. 
 
 Q. Will you let me see it? -A. Yes, sir. (Hands to Mr. Higgins receipt as follows): 
 
 'f'a 
 
 "John WAfiNER." 
 
 ell, Uoss got 
 
 "April 18th, 1891. 
 
 " Received from Mr. Peter Nelson the sum of !?50 for one boat and use of license 
 " No. 18 foi" the term of one year. 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 liy Mr. Higginn : 
 Q. Who is AVagner? — A. A risherman fishing on the river. 
 
 Ihj Mr. Wilwot : 
 
 Q. Did you apply for a license ? — A. I did, and didn't get one. 
 
 Q. What was the reason ? — A. I don't know except that all were given out. 
 
 Q. Did you lish under the name of John Wagner? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. I/iyf/i)iK : 
 Q. You were John Wagiier for this season 1 — A. Y'^es. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmol : 
 
 \). Your lioat was No. 18 and you passed for No. 18 also? — A. Y''es, sir. 
 O. i ■ this practice generally pursued? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 '.^. Were you aware you were doing something wrong? — A. No, sir; T didn't think 
 it wfi... 
 
 Q. '•^Vh-'" 'lumber of tish did you catch with this license? — A. Three thousand. 
 <^. faoekeyes? All of them ?- A. All sockeyes. 
 
 Q, What establishment did you sell to ?— A. I sokl my tish to Mr. Ewen. 
 Q. Was there any day that you caught these lish that the cannery could not take 
 them ? — A. Yes ; two days. 
 
 Q. What did you do with the tish not taken ? A. I didn't catch more fish. I 
 tuok in n;y tish caught in the morning and they told me ncjt to bring any more. I 
 caught 40 more, but these T .sold fresh my.self. 
 sk^ C^". The tish you caught and kept yourself — where did you clean them ? — A. On the 
 
 * ,.k oi the river. 
 
 0. Where did you leave the offal ? - A. On the bank. 
 '38 '^' I^-^V6 you any idea of injurious effects being del ivcd from otl'al ? A. T have seen 
 
 r I did, but 1^ jj^ thrown into the river, but T don't know of any serious effects. I have caught lefuse 
 in my nets when tishing. 
 lOc— 2i 
 
 o say. 
 
 license, what 
 |y near. 
 
 do. 
 
 excessive t'oi 
 for them, but -i 
 
 is sufficient : \ 
 
 I'annery you 
 
 |ie cannery. 
 
 ts. 
 
 Jfear. 
 (to the capacity 
 
 I. No ; not ii 
 Itwice as many 
 ;t have muciil^J 
 
20 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 111 tlie river prevents fish tVoin enterinf; the river 
 V years ? There have been several heavy runs '(■ — A. 
 
 Q. What ertet't lias that?— A. 1 lost the net. 
 
 Q. Do you think throwing offal into the river is injurious to the fish ? — A. Yes ; I 
 think it prevents fish coming into the river. 
 
 Q. You say also it spoils your net ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why do you say it prevents fish t'roiii coming in ? — A. There is a bad smell, and 
 it keeps them from coming in. 
 
 Q. Then you think there are two cau.ses for injury — one stopping the fish from 
 coming in, and the other the injury to your nets ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What is the usual size of tish you catch ? A. As small as four or five pounds. 
 
 Q. AVhat size mesh do you use '! — A. A six-inch inesli. 
 
 Q. How many meshes tleep was your net?- A. Forty meshes. 
 
 Q. Could you fish .satisfactorily with a less depth of meshed nets?- A. Yes, sir ; I 
 could fish in the channels. 
 
 Q. in what portion of the net when you take it uji do you find the greatest num- 
 ber of fish ?- -A. Oh, they are most all over. 
 
 Q. As many at the bottom as the top?- A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you recollect what number you may have taken in one ilay ? — A. 1 have 
 taken 1,100 in one day. 
 
 Q. In what time of the year would this be?— A. Tn July. . 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. You say that throwi. ^ 
 — how do you account for the hi 
 I don't know, sir ; I can't tell. 
 
 Q. Have you any ide.i as to it ?^A. AVell, some people give credit to the hatchery. 
 
 Q. Do you think throwing offal into the river caused the big run? — (Laughter.)— 
 A. Oh, no ; it wasn't that. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. About the hatchery — do you believe that yourself, or did you hear it ? — A. 1 
 heard it. 
 
 Q. Then you still say tliat yor know there were other licenses dis))osed of as this 
 was to you — do you know of any names ? — A. Yes, sir ; I can give one — Capt. Grant, 
 the fishery officer. 
 
 Q. He sold a license? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In your fishing did you fish principally down at the mouth of the river ? —A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are more fish caught at the mouth than elsewhere ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you call the mouth of the river is it out two or three miles from the 
 lighthouse ? — A. No ; from the second red buoy. 
 
 Q. Do you think the fishing is too excessive at the mouth of the river for the 
 benefit of the fishing above? — A. Well, plenty are sure to get up. 
 
 Q. They are more easily caught at the mouth, are they not ? Why is this ?— A. 
 It is easier to get them, and it is nearer to the canneries. 
 
 Q. Is one-third of the channel kept open ? — A. T don't know. 
 
 By Mr. Arinsfrpiif/ : 
 
 Q. You say Capt. Grant sold his license ; to whom did he sell ? — A. To me and 
 John Wagner. Wagner had the license and told me he would sell it to some one for 
 $50. Thus we had to pay Capt. Grant $50. 
 
 Q. But I don't understand ; who had the license ? 
 
 By Mr. Wilnioi. : 
 
 Q. J^ut let us understand this. Was the license issued by the inspector of fisherief^ 
 to Capt. Grant ? — A. Yes, sir ; we took it together and fi.shed, and paid Grant $50. 
 
 By Mr. lliggins : 
 
 Q. Is this man here — here in the room? — A. (After surveying the parties present. \ 
 No, sir ; he is not here. 
 
BRITISH COLUMniA FISHEHV COMMISSION. 
 
 21 
 
 liH Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then do T uiulerstand that (Jrfiiit yavp a licciisf to Wiiifiicr and Wagner sold 
 one-half interest in it to you. — A. Yes, sir ; that is it. 
 
 Bjf Mr. Anu.ifrtiiif/ : 
 
 Q. Do you know where Wagner is? A. [ think he is in town. 
 
 Q. Will you get him and l)ring him in to-morrow? A. Yes, sii-. 
 
 Mr. \Vii.MOT — Very well : that will do, sir, it' vou have nothin'' further to remark. 
 
 KEKONF, a native of Fiidand, a fisherman and resident of New Westminster, was 
 duly swoiii. 
 
 />'// Mr. IVUniof : 
 
 Q. Well, what is your eomplaint ? -A. f have this complaint to make : that T have 
 l)een in this country four years, and have heen trying to get a license to Hsh here, Init 
 could not get it. 
 
 Q. What is your nationality? — A. I am a Swedish Finn. 
 
 lii/ Mr. Hicfu'nis : 
 
 Q. Are you a British sultject ? — A. Ye.s, sir, I am. I took the oath here in West- 
 minster. 
 
 By Mr. WUn,<,t : 
 
 Q. Have you a license of your own?- A. No ; T could not get one. 
 
 i}. How ditl you tish, then ? - A. T had to go to a canneiy and get the piivilege of 
 lishing with a boat of theirs. 
 
 i.l. Had you to pay anything for it? — A. 1 will tell you — the price of Hsh was 20 
 cents, but the cannery only paid 10 cents. 
 
 Q. W^as that all the .season through ? -A. That was in the sockeye run. 
 
 <^. Then the canneryman sold you a license he had for 10 cents on each Hsh ? — A. 
 Yes ; I got about ^{,400 Hsh, and, of coui-se, that gave to the cannery $340 for the 
 license and boat that were not worth !i?100. 
 
 Q. Ts this .sort of tratlic canied on with other Hshermen ? — A. Yes, with most of 
 us. We were Hsliing for Mr. Ewen. He gave the highest prices. Others were giving 
 but 0'^ cents, and keeping \'?i\ on each Hsh. The rea.son of that is many canneryraen 
 largely einjjloy Japs. We liave heard they are going to import many hundreds of them. 
 
 (.}. Hut Japanese get less wages, don't they '. — A. Yes ; \ know that for sure. 
 
 Q. Where did you Hsh ? — A. Down at the mouth of the i-iver. 
 
 Q. WHiy did you go there? A. Becau.se it is the easiest ])lace to Hsh. You always 
 havf3 a good wind to .sail up with, and the tish come in with the tide. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Who were you Hshing for? — A. For Mr. Ewen. 
 
 il. Well, was this '20 cents an universal price during the .sockeye run ? A. No, it 
 was not an universal piice. Only two men on the river paid '20 cents ; the rest, I be- 
 lieve, were jtaying 12.', cents to (tutsiders. 
 
 />V Mr. IVihnof : 
 
 Q. How many moshes deeji was your net? — A. Thirty meshes: that is the shal- 
 lowest net on the river, generally. 
 
 Q. In your experience of Hshing do you think that a 30 mesh depth of net is sutH- 
 cient for ordinary Hshing? A. No, 1 don't say it is. Tt is better for the tide flats at 
 tlie mouth of the I'iver. 
 
 (,}. And a deeper net further up the river?— A. Yes; and even in the cliannel 
 <luwn at the mouth. 
 
22 
 
 M*TilNE AND FCSIIERIE8. 
 
 % 
 
 \l\ 
 
 (.i. Would it, in your opinion, seriously iiurt th« fishing it" 30 niesli nets were 
 estiiblislied iiltogetlier /' A. Yes; for in spring fishing you want deep nets — you want 
 up to ")() nit'sh nets. 
 
 Q. And fish are taken in the lower part of the net as well as the upper? — A. Yes ; 
 especially in spring. 
 
 Q. Then, as there may be on S(jine occasions, six, seven or nine boats going down 
 the riv(!r, the 150 fathom nets would foim a sort of continuous fence across the river? 
 — A. Yes : but they are generally drifting with the tide. Yes, it would form a kind 
 of fence. 
 
 Q. You think one license would be sufficient for the ordinary fisherman to carry on 
 his work '/ — A. Yes, T do. 
 
 y. What else do you do here ? — A. In the vvinter time T do any kind of job 1 can get. 
 
 Q. What are you doing now? — A. I am doing nothing now^ — 1 am waiting for the 
 fishing to commence. 
 
 t^. What induced you to come here--to settle, or was it the fishei'ies ? A. Yes ; it 
 was the fisheries. 1 was in the Eastern States first, in Massachusetts, and I got a Gov- 
 ernment pamphlet about Bjntish Columbia and T thought I would come out and try and 
 do fishing. 
 
 Q. Have you ever got a license ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Have you applied ? -A. Yes, but I didn't get one. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any licenses l)eing sold besides those mentioned to-night ? — A. 
 I believe it is a common habit. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : > 
 
 Q. Can you give us the names of any pers.'jnsyou know of? — A. T could give names 
 of persons wlu» get licenses but do not fish them they give them out and get one-third 
 of the profits. 
 
 Q. Give us the names? A. Mr. .John Ross got one. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he is now?- -A. T saw him in town yesterday — I think he 
 is living down at the cannery, but I am not sure. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other?- -A. No, but Mr. Munn here might be able to tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. Oh, yes, but we want what you know — we will hear from him by and by. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. How long did you say you have been a British subject ? — A. I got my papers 
 in the month of June or .July last year. 
 
 Q. What were your reasons for becoming a British subject ? — A. Well, I intended 
 staying in the country and of course it is no use unless you belong to it — one must 
 become a British subject to get the full advantages of citizenship. 
 
 Q. Do you think you have got the advantages ? — A. No, sir, T have not indeed. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You say you had to pay 10 cents to the canneiy for the privilege of fishing, or 
 about$.'}00? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the canners furnish you with boats antl nets? — A. Yes fir, they do. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins: 
 
 Q. You say you have not received the full benefits of being a British subject. What 
 do you think you ought to get — a license, for instance? — A. Yes, I should have got one. 
 I don't think the cannei'ies should get any licenses at all. 
 
 Q. But why not? — A. Oh, they are not fishermen, they are simply dealers. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. AVhat is the cost of a bo/vt and net ? A. Well, the boat and outfit will cost 
 about 8140. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHKRY COMMISSION. 
 
 23 
 
 (^. And do you not think that the canueryinen who pive you that l)oat aiul net 
 sliould j,'Pt something'/ -A. Yes, he should get something, hut my rig cost $100 ought 
 lie to get !i?300'/ 
 
 Q. Hut do not Hshennen sometimes lose their nets? A. Yps. 
 
 Q. And then you have to (ind another ?— A. No, sir, the cannerymen wouhl give 
 me Ji Mother. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, sir, have you anything further to say / A. No, 1 tiiiiik not, 
 except that 1 wish to get a license. 
 
 MEN.JAMIN M AD 1 SON, of New Westminster, presented himself and was duly 
 sworn. 
 
 Mr. Wll-MOT. — Have you any distinct statenuMit to make? A. Well, T want a 
 license, that's all. 
 
 Mr. Hi(j(;iNS. — But we have m) pcnver to give you a license. A. Well, 1 will 
 nn away then. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 i}. Are you under the same circumstances as the last man who gave evidence? — 
 A. Well, no. T want a license and want to get one. 1 applied, hut could not get one. 
 
 Q. What was the reason — were all taken up? A. No, sir. T sent m my ajjplica- 
 tion and Mr. Mowat told me hefore he died that there were none. 
 
 Q. You have fished every year? How did you fish ?- -A. F fished i)y the season for 
 different canneries, mo.stly with my own gear and st)metimes with catuiery gear. 
 
 Q. Then the cannery gave you boat and net? A. Yes, T lished for them and f got 
 one-third share. 
 
 Q. Then the system pursued hycanners was to divide it into three shares? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many tish did you catch ? — Oh, I could not tell you sometimes ten, some- 
 times twenty, sometimes uu)i'e. , 
 
 Q. I>ut the a\erage the season through ? -A. Well, sometimes ten t(» twenty and 
 sometimes more. 
 
 .Mr. Hi(;(iiNS. Do you think, Mr. Chairman, we should go on with this mans 
 e\ idence : T do not. 
 
 .Mr. Wii.MOT. No. 
 
 A. Oh, sir, r don't mean anything : I just want a license, that's all. 
 
 •JOHN McLASHLAN, a nativ<! of Scotland, now a residentof New Westminster, 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 % Afr. IVihno/ : 
 
 <,^. Well, sir, will you please state what you desire to say.- A. Well, I have been 
 in this country foi- the last three years and a half and have always applied for licenses, 
 Imt could not get one. 
 
 Q. What was the reason, were you bold? A. Yes, last year I got a line from Mr. 
 Mowat and he told me that they were given to mort; deserving persons. Hefore we left 
 home a (lovernment officer told us we did not need any licenses here and when we 
 came out we found it different. 
 
 Q. What have you been doing since coming here? — Oh, anything I could get. T 
 have been woi-king on the Goverinnent wharf and have been w<irking foi" the cannery 
 as a net-man by day's work. 
 
 Q. Are there many white people engaged in the cannery besides yourself? — A. No, 
 sir, only the foreman in the cannery and the one who looks after the retorts and another 
 looks after the women, and another— perhaps ten white men altogether. 
 
 Q. What are the rest ? — A. Chinamen and Klootchmen. 
 
24 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. What nuinl)er <>£ those would he workinj,' in the factory besides your white 
 people 1 — A. ()h, about GO Chinamen and 20 or 30 Klootchies, and some young Indian 
 boys and gii'ls, ovei' and above tliese. 
 
 Q. Then al)out 100 altogether? — A. Yes, about that. Perhaps more, perhaps less. 
 
 Q. Ts there any marked difference between the labour of the Chinamen and that of 
 the' white men ? -A. Well, the white men do nothing as regards the fish. The white men 
 look after the Chinamen and have the higher classes of work. 
 
 Q. What wages might ynu have received? — A. .^40 a month till the .sock eye run 
 and ^60 after that. 
 
 Q. Do you know the wages paid to the Chiiuimen?— A, I don't know; some are 
 paid l)y the piece and some by the day. 
 
 (,|. Then you have not fished on the river by yourself? — A. I worked for Mr. Ewen. 
 We were to fish foi- 10 cents find pay 6 for his gear. 
 
 C^. Your complaint is, then, that you don't think you are dealt fairly with in not 
 getting a license? — A. Yes, sir; I think cannerymen have too many licenses. 
 
 Q. Then you think Chinamen are injuring the whites ? — A. Yes, sir ; the Chinamen 
 are spoiling this country. (Laughter.) 
 
 /ii/ Jfi: Hij/ijintt : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any tratiic in licenses? Can you mention any names? — A. T 
 do know of instances, but I can't tell names. 
 
 Q. Are they British subjects? — A. I don't know — he is an old-timer here — he gets 
 two or three licenses. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Can't you get his name ? Does he carry on business here ? — A. No, sir ; but he 
 lives in the City f lotel. (Here tme of tiie audience addressed the witness). I find his 
 name is Fred Kaye. 
 
 Q. Oil, very well. Have you anything further? — A. No, sir; except that I'd like 
 to get a license, that is all. 
 
 
 P. \VAL(iHAN, a i)ati\t'(if Sweden, now a resident of Xew Westminster, was duly 
 sworn. 
 
 A'// Mr. in/mof : 
 
 (^|. You say you are a Swede ; how long have you been here ? — A. I am a Swede, 
 and have been here since 1882. 
 
 Q. You are a fisherman ? -A. Yes, sii'. 
 
 Q. Have you obtained licenses ? — A. I never got one yet. 
 
 Q. What reason did you assign for not having got x lincense ? — A. Well,*! don't 
 know — pei'Kons who have lived here a long time should get licenses first, I suppose. 1 
 have been fishing other men's nets on shares. 
 
 Q. Weie tiiey fishermen or canners ? — A. Fishermen 
 
 Q. What did you pay for your share ? — A. One-third. 
 
 Q. What number of fish did you catch last year? — A. Last year? A little over 
 3,000. 
 
 Q. What caiuiery ilid you sell to ? — A. Mr. Ewen's. 
 
 Q. What was the share you gave for the privilege of fishing with his boat and net ? 
 — A. One-third. 
 
 Q. Did you on any days bring any more fish than the cannery would take ? — A, 
 No, sir ; they always told me if they didn't want them before I went out again. 
 
 Q. Were you ever obliged to throw fish away ? — A. No, sir ; but I have been 
 limited. The year before last 1 was limited to 500 fish a day. 
 
 tj. Is that a usual average? — A. No; previously you could catch more. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHCRT COMMISSION. 
 
 2ft 
 
 C^. Do you mean by day twelve hours, or day and iiiiflit ? — A. Yes, sir: twenty- 
 four hours. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of net you fish ? -A. Foity meshes. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is overfishing,' at the mouth of the river that would he detri- 
 mental to fish ? — A. No, sir ; there is no room foi- all the fishermen — some are down the 
 river and .some ar<' up the river. 
 
 <.^. Do they divide in turns ?~ A. No, sir ; they stay down or up. 
 
 Q. Are there more fish at the mouth than u}) the rivei- / A. The hi^'^'est numl>er 
 was caught last year up the river just above the town here. 
 
 Q. VVhat is the average weight of sookeye ? — A. Al)out five pounds is. I think, a fair 
 average. 
 
 (^. What is the average of the (|uinnat oi- spring salmon .' A. Ten pounds, more 
 01' less. 
 
 y. You ai'e dis.satisfied because you cannot get a license — would you l)e satisfied 
 with one license ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is all I can manage. 
 
 Q. Do you think the fee of S'JO is too high ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is too high for a man 
 who has to make his living out of it. 
 
 Q. Then you think the difference between -S') and !?20 would make a great deal of 
 difference in a man's living? — A. Yes, sir; in slack yeais it would. 
 
 Q. What did you get for your fish 1 — A. 20 cents -or I got one-third of that 
 really. 
 
 Q. How many years have you been fishing on the rivei-?— A. Three or four years. 
 
 (}. Was last year expected to be bad 1— A. Well, it wasn't neai' so good as the year 
 before. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. //ii/f/ins : 
 
 (^. But did all think it would be bad? -A. There ai-e generally two good years and 
 two bad. 
 
 Q. What do you think abfiut throwing oft'al into t\w river? — A. Well, T don't 
 know iinything about that. 
 
 % iVr. Wilmof : 
 
 t^. Y'^our main complaint is because you cannot get a license? — A. Y'^es, sir ; that 
 is uiy trouble. 
 
 Q. Very well, sir, that will do if you have nothing further. 
 
 .FAMES BEER, a native of England, a lesident of New Westndnster, and in British 
 Columbia for twenty-six years, a general merchant and cooper by occupativ n, was duly 
 .sworn. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, sir, we will be glad to heai- your I'emarks.^ — A. There has 
 been, of course, of late years since the limitation has been put on licenses, considerable 
 dissatisfaction on account of the injustice done to a great many, and my opinion is, after 
 nearly thirty years in this country, that there should be a free right and open river to 
 all British subjects who wish to fish, and have a boat and net ; and as regards a close 
 season, I believe that the close season is sufficient as it is. 
 
 Jiij Mr. Wiliaof : 
 
 Q. What do you mean l)y " close season ? '" — A. I mean the time in which the 
 lioats have to be out of the water — 1 believe that is sufficient for the purpose. 
 
 Q. Can you relate what that close season is now ? — A. Well, I think it is from 
 Siitui'day morning until Sunday night, and as regards an annual close season I do not 
 think that necessary at all. My experience is that there is no danger of diminishing 
 the supply of fish by the catching of them. I believe that if there were no fish caught 
 ill the river except what men would sell fi-om d(X)r to door, that the river would not fuUy 
 111 lid them. I consider that the .spawning beds are overffooded witli ova and that one 
 
26 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 tisli roots out the sjmwn of aiiotlicr uiul tliat i>o.ssibly we do not j,'et as many tisli raised 
 as wo would it' all were caujiht : and as lejuiirds the offal I don't tiiink it any dt'trinient 
 to the iisii, for if that was so th<* doftd and dvini,' Hsh would Im' cnou^di to kill off the 
 Hsh alone. 
 
 Q. May T ask you as to tho Sunday tinif do you think then- are not a numljer of 
 ppojilc here who think the Sunday shouhl not lie used for tishinj,' ? -A. Yes, I am one of 
 those myself - but if injury is done to a great industry, I think it might he allowed. 
 
 Q. Then with your views, if a man wanted a hundred liai-rels -you art* a cooper — 
 do you think y(»u would he justitied in making them on Sunday / — -A. No, I would not 
 give them to him. 
 
 Q. Tmerelyjiutittoyouas an illustration. A. Hut there is theditHculty,if theeanners 
 have no Hsh to go to work on on Monday moining before tlie fishermen can get to work, 
 with such a very short season as we have, it would be very hai'mful. 
 
 Q. Then you ctmsider there is no use in the close time as at present. — A. T do not 
 think it necessary. 
 
 Q. But do you think it of use? — A. Well, I knew this river and the Colundna 
 when thtn-e was scarcely any fishing at all and I was making barrels foi' salting, and T 
 know we had great ditKculty in getting salmon to fill the barrels. 
 
 Q. But were there as many fishermen then? — -A. Oh, of course not, but still I 
 don't think the fish could have been caught even if the fishermen were thei-e. 
 
 Q. Now about the offal. You think it is no harm to fish what harm is it, do you 
 think, to the human family^ — d(jes it create a stench? — A. Well, no ; I don't think it 
 does harm — T do not know of it. 
 
 Q. But would you not say from a sanitary point of view it might do harm if it 
 created a .stench? — A. A''es, 1 think it would undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. Have you any further ivmarks you wish to make? — A. No, 1 think T have told 
 you the points on which F desired to speak. 
 
 LOUIS L'HENAFP, a native of France, a resident of Steveston, and a fisher- 
 man, was duly sworn. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. Wilmpt : 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. Twehe years. I am a fisherman and 
 work for the canneries as a net-num. 
 
 C^. Have you ever fished under license by yourself .' — \'"es, sir. What I want to 
 say is that for the last three years restriction has been made and T could not get a 
 licen.se.. This is my only trouble. 
 
 By Jfr. J I iffy ins : 
 Q. Are you a British subject? — A. Yes, sii- ; 1 have sworn allegiance. 
 Ihj Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Are you a native of Canada ?- No, sii- ; \ am a native of old France. 
 
 Q. Y'^ou have been fishing for the canneries as boatman or netter? — A. Y'^es, sir : 
 all T wanfi to say is, I want a license. I have asked for one every year for the last four 
 year.s, l)ut have always been refused. 
 
 Q. Do you know of barter oi- sales of licenses? — A. Yes, I do, but 1 could not be 
 definite about it. 
 
 Q. Do you think if you obtained one license it would be sufficient for all your 
 wants ? — A. Yes, sir : without transfei-. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by that?— A. That I slwrnkl use it, or leave it alone and 
 attend to other business. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the ofi'al ? Ts it a fact that all the offal fr,)m canneries 
 is thrown into the river? — A. Well, certainly a lot is wasted and thrown in, l)Ut T d<m't 
 know anything about that. 1 came here to li\ e and let live. 1 want a license, that is 
 all, and T don't want ttj interfere with any one else. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA KI8IIKRY COMMISSION. 
 
 2T 
 
 (}. Well, l)iil wiml, we would likf you to iiiiswi'i' is tliis : do you know or not that 
 nil tin' otlfil is thrown into the rivtM-? A. No; not all, Ih-cuuso some iirc nmkiii^' oil out 
 of it. • 
 
 (,». What cannery were you worUin;,' for.' A. Oh, I havt; Ihm'ii working; here for 
 tlirt'f ycais, and I have been on the Skeena Kivtii' for two years. 
 
 {}. What course is pursued on the Skena as to otl'al ' A. Oh, it is thrown into the 
 ri\('r. That is the oidy place ; i put it. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is injurious to anythin;,'? \. I don't think it is injurious to 
 anvthinj,' : it is food for other tish(>s ; I dont think it hurts anytlnnf,' ; it^ has heen 
 there for years ; we ha\e all drank of the water from the riser for ye;o's and we have 
 not died yet. This is not what is the matter ; we want licenses, that is all. There 
 is too much ^'amhlinj,' in licenses. 
 
 t^. Well, how does it afVect you / A. Well, it throws me out of here. I had to go 
 to the Skeena, hut there tlie canners had most of the outside licenses ; they are 
 divided ainon;;' tlie canners in someltody else's name. 
 
 C^. In what way do Indians tish there.' — A. irnder the caiuu^ry licenses the 
 cannery l)ays the fee hut now settlers are hejj^iniunff to take up lieen.ses. 
 
 <). ]]ut you said all licenses were taken up hy the canners .' .V. Oh, well, they 
 were until very lately. 
 
 Q. What is the usual size of .sockeye salmon up in the Skeena? Will they 
 avera,<,'e about .seviMi pounds? -,\. Al)out seven ])oun(ls when they come (tut of the 
 water. 
 
 Q. How many cans will you <,'et from one salmon there? A. Oh, I believe about 
 five cans, sometimes four and a half, i could not testify as to that; I am notacanner; 
 I am a tishennan ; T never weighed them. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Annxtrong : 
 
 Q. What is the size of sockeye on I'^raser River? — A. Oh, several sizes : I have seen 
 some as high as 12 pounds. 
 
 Q. Well, what about the average ? — A. .\ll through alx)ut seven pounds. 
 
 //// Mr. W'l/mot : 
 
 (}. You cannot vouch for any e.xact statement as to th" number of cans from one 
 fish ? — A. No ; J never made statistics ; T don't know. 
 
 Q. How many me.shes deep are the n<!ts used on the Skeena?- -A. \o deeper than 
 .S") meshes : that is the deepest. 
 
 Q. Are any seines used on the Skeena ? - A. No, all drift nets. 
 
 Q. Are Hsh caught there principally at the mouth or farther up the river?— A 
 Kvery where, except that they are not caught above tidal water. 
 
 Q. How far does the tide back up the water in the Skeena? — A. I have not been 
 up that far. 
 
 Q. How wide is the river where most of the fishing is carried on ? — A. About half 
 a mile wide. 
 
 Q. Is the water more shallow there than up the river? ~A. Yes ; T think so, even 
 the channel is shallow, and tlie fishing is carried on the same as here. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to tell us? — A. Xo, sir. 
 
 HEHNAHI) BL'CK, a native of Norway, a fisherman, and resident of New West- 
 minster, was duly sworn. 
 
 % Mr. Wilmut : 
 
 y. Do you desire to make a .statement ? -.\. Yes; I understand the cannerymen 
 were going to ask for an increase in the number of licenses and let every man get a 
 license, but if every man is to get a license, and the cannerymen get all the licenses 
 they want, we could not make a living. It don't matter whether you are a fisherman 
 
 . n 
 
98 
 
 MAIUNB AND FISUEiUES. 
 
 (I I 
 ;! 1 
 
 JM^ 
 
 oi not, the ('iiiiiHTyint'ii iiic Hl)lt' to ^ct liffiiscs. and imw (liny want iimif. It' tin 
 fii iiu'i ymt'ii ;L,'t't imin- incnscs and >,'iv«' llicni t<i otlu'cs tlian actual tislii-nncn, tlu-n we 
 ruiinot niakf a li\ in<{. I have tislicd iindtM' liccnsfs ; my nnly coniplaii;!, is in the tear 
 iliat tlu' (lUMU'iynicn wdl get nunc licenses ; they get ton nniny now. I have hoen 
 working t'of Mr. Kwen, having chaige ot' the whole cannery depaitnient, anjil I know 
 that in a l»ig run they could keep the estal)lishnienl going in good order with I") boats. 
 
 (^>. And when there is a hig run of tish an<l the cannery has 15 hoats running, can 
 you as a tishernian dispose of your tisii .' A. Well, I only inentioiu'd one instance anil 
 it was in tiie hig run, and with I') lioats they had enough to keep the whole i)u.sines^ 
 going. 
 
 (}. Then the canneries have too many licenses and so alFect sei-iously the livelihood 
 *)f the lisheroien .' ^'es. 
 
 t^. But suppose you levt-rse it and say the canners only have a few licenses and 
 you iui\e f»ne each, would you not contriil the canners .' A. No, not at all : we must 
 sell to the canners anyway. 
 
 By Mr. Hi<j(jins : 
 
 <,). You think then the canners should not have any licen.ses ? -A. Yes: they 
 could l)uy their tish just as cheap we must .sell our tish to the cann«'rs. 
 
 (.^. Then you will l)e al)le ttj dictate io the canner.s and control the salmon tishing 
 business .' A. No, I doiit think we would 
 
 C^). Hut capital shoii'''. have some ad.vantage, you know ? A. Well, they are ton 
 much protected nov . I know all about them I have worked tor them long enough. 
 
 liif Mr. Wihiml : 
 
 C»f. Do you know anything alwiut the ort'al ? A. I could not tell y<ni anythini; 
 about that. I don't think it does any harm. I have tished i-ight along where the 
 offal was going d(»wii and caught tish just as w»'ll. 
 
 By Mr. Higgim : 
 
 Q. I low long does offal remain before disappt-aring .' A. ( )h, the little tisi i 
 
 all up— it (h)es not n'Uiain long. 
 
 Q. But if the canner}' stops tor a day or two, does the offal reuuiin there '/ — A. 
 No, T never saw it, except at the mouth of the liver. 
 
 /,'// J/r. Wilmot : 
 
 <.i>. Oh, it gets there does it .' We have been told that it injures the nets. — A. 
 I have heard that. 
 
 ii. Suppose the offal gets into the net -would it not prevent the salmon from 
 getting into that net ? A. I never saw any prevented from connng into the net. 
 
 Q. Were you tishing last year ?- -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where .' A. Down at the mouth of the river. That is the place where we 
 tish for sockeyes and cohoes. 
 
 (.^. What was the a\erage number of Hsh you caught duiing the season ? — A. 
 Something oxer 4,000 tish. 
 
 Q. \\'hat price did you get for them 1 — A. 20 cents. 
 
 Q. To what cannery did you .sell ? — A. Mr. Ewen'.s. 
 
 Q. Do you know of the sale of licenses to fishermen wlio could not get the m 
 through the proper officer ? Do you know (jf fishermen who purchased licen,ses from 
 others '! — A. Well, I oant .say — many fishermen fished on shares. 
 
 Q. What depth of mesh did you fish ?- -A. 1 had 4") meshes deep. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Curiously enough, all you men in your evidence speak of years of big runs 
 you don't speak of general averages — why don't you speak of other years ? — A. Well, 
 because there is nothing in it in other years — we don't nuike anything. 
 
 Q. How many l)oats flo canners want in a bad year, or if 15 boats would !»■ 
 enough in a good year 1 We want an average — we are being misled because we an' 
 
HIllTIrin tluLUMniA tMSHEBY COMMtS.ilO.V. 
 
 29 
 
 licariiiji i)f only tlif ^^\ii runs. A. Well, in it lii;; run the cinnt'i's miikf liiyifi-i' iiicpai) 
 
 lions for a In;,' pack 
 
 W 
 
 • ' hiivc two I'ood vffirs tind two 
 
 had 
 
 oni's. 
 
 n a lii;; inn tlify 
 
 call 
 
 ulatc on II l)i;,' pack and make a ;<i<'at. niiinlR-rot' cans, and llim they can ;,'ct all lli 
 lish tlicy want with thfir own hoats in a small run they want all tlicy can <H't, and 
 in after us fortlmtish —we arc very .i,'ood ini'ii then (lau;,'htcr) in a hi;,' year wo 
 u, o run after tliem. 
 
 {). Woulil it not pay to sidt the lish in the hi;,' years ? Some canneries sail tlietn 
 
 III lim years. 
 
 A. What cannerii 
 
 Mr. AnMsTiioNfi Well, ail, don't they. 
 
 Wl'I'M'.ss No, sir : some persons have salted salmon they pay "> cents for the fish. 
 
 'i*- '^" .y*" know what it takes to put up a case of salmon .' .\ ^^•s ; ahout .S'-'.SO 
 
 I am not a canner, hut, I consider that is ahout the pi'ice 
 
 (.). II 
 
 ow many fish till a case 
 
 A. Kleveii sockeyes will till a case 
 
 (). .\nd what do they cost on the avera;,'e ? A. They have heen payin;; 10 cents 
 -iiicc the limilatioii was put on, Itut hefore tluit one and a half or two cents. 
 
 {}. And how many would you (.'atch with one net .' .\. Some have cau;,'ht as hi;,'h 
 lis S.dOO or '.»,0()0. 
 
 (,>. The u\t'ia;(e price of tish is then, say, ID cents. Now, what 
 
 does It cost to 
 
 clean the lish and i)Ut them up .'A. Well, I dont know the details. I understand it 
 costs .•^L'.SU per ease this is as far as I know. I have heen told it is !?•_*. (S(> hy the 
 camierymen tlujuiselves. 
 
 Q. Oh, you aio tellin.<; us hearsay evidence, are you? You shctuld tell us nothing; 
 lull what you know for a fact youiself. ~ A. .James Wise t.old ine. 
 
 (}. .laiiuis VVi.se nev. r had a cannery in his life -how many years a;(o is it since he 
 one / A. Tt miuht he ten years or so or more than that — I was very youn;;' then. 
 
 ul one 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 i}. Then you don't know when he trjld you ? — A. I don't know exactly when it 
 was -I have heen here sinci^ 1S7-"). 
 
 Q. Very \vell, hut we dont want anythin;; e.\cept what you know. We are not 
 i^oiuju; to take down any hearsay evidence. Now, do you know whether it costs more to 
 put up a case of salmoii now than it did some years ago? — A. Oh, J cannot tell you 
 that. 
 
 Q. I?ut of course you know that it must cost iiKjie when 20 cents is paid than 
 wlien 10 cents is given? — A. Oh yes, of course. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (}. Well, sir, have you any more remarks to make ? — A. Xo ; F think not at pre- 
 sent. 
 
 The Chairman then declared tlie Commission adjourned at 10 p.m., to meet again 
 in the same place (Court-house, Westminster) at 10 a.m. 20th Fehruary. 
 
 4 
 
 Nkw Wkstminstek, B.C., 20th February, 1892. 
 
 Second Bay's Session. 
 
 The Commission was called to order hy the Chairman at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present S. Wilmot, Esq., in the chair ; Hon. W. D. Higgins, Sheriff W. J. Arm- 
 strong, C. F. Winter, secretary. 
 
 FREDERICK KAYE, of New Westminster, a native of England, was duly swoi'n. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Well, sir, we will be glad to hear any statement you may wish to make ? — A. 
 Well, it is rather a delicate question — if I should consider everything I have to 
 
30 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 lit 
 
 PJ IS-, 
 
 -'i 
 
 m 
 
 ii. It' you have Jiiiy views f^eiierally you wish to state you may do so, you know. — 
 A. W(.'ll, sir, uiy j,'eiierai impression is that if you <,'ave everybody license* tlie mattei' 
 wouhl regulate itself. You should jijive everybody licen.ses, gentlemen, that is what is 
 the trouble. 
 
 Q. Have you anytliing to say in regard to the disposition of the offal — tlie 
 tlnowing of vast (juantities into the river -what effect lias it, in youi' ()pini<in, upon the 
 fisheries, or from a sanitary point of view? — A. Why, there is a multitude of small fish 
 that devour it as fast as yon throw it in this is well known. 
 
 Q. Then you think that quantities of ofi'al, amounting to millions of pounds, is all 
 eaten up ! -A. Yes ; all of it millions of pounds. 
 
 (•i. What efiect has it upon the inhabitairrs ? -A. It is thought injui'ious by some, 
 but T have drank the water of the Fraser foi* years and it lias liad no efiect. 1 can only 
 say that it never affected me — T don't know how other people are constituted. 
 
 (.J. W'iial about the limitation of the number of nets as to (manners or fishermen 
 themselves .' — A. T think every man should get a license. 
 
 Q. You do not believe in any limitati<in whatever? -A. No lin\itation. (livt^ evei'y 
 man a license. There is plenty of fish. I cannot go elsewhere and catch all \ want. 
 The fish from the Skeena came here last year. 
 
 (.^>. Would you say. in giving nets to all, to include foi'eigners ? -A. Oh, no ; 
 decidedly not — no foreigners -give them to Hritish subjects. They will soon get tired 
 of getting them if it does not j»ay. 
 
 (i- Will one license each be sufficient .'—A. (Jive him moi'c if he has money and 
 will ])Ut it into the industry. 
 
 Q. Are you of the opinion that it would be just and safe that licenses should be 
 given indiscriminately, both as regards number and fishermen? — A. Oh, no; I would 
 not give an uidimited number, l)ut if a man has capital to put up a lot of fish, let him 
 show pi'oof and get more licenses. 
 
 Q. Then if a man has capital and wants licenses, he should get them and carry on 
 busine.ss as he likes? — A. If he has the money to put up the fish, he should have the 
 licenses ; if he has m)t J;lie means to carry on the work, he will not apply for what he 
 cant use. 
 
 Q. Does this apply to fishermen and canners alike? — A. Yes ; to both alike. 
 
 Q. What al)out the close sea.son ?-- A. It is i)roper as now. It preserves the fish 
 and <'ives fishermen rest. It works well. 
 
 (^. Are you an advocate that fishing should be allowed on Sundays? A. No, sir ; 
 I am not. 
 
 Q. A clo.se time then from six o'clock Saturday to si.x o'clock Sumlay night? — A 
 Yes ; and that is (piite sufficient. 
 
 Q. Do you not tiiink the whole of Sunday should t\w\\ be given to the close time ' 
 — A. I think it proper, as far as I know of. 
 
 (^>. What about an annual close season ? A. It would be good and jiroper : nothing 
 can be better. 
 
 Q. What are your ideas as to limits of fishing on the Fra.ser liiver -should fishijiL; 
 at the mouth be curtailed f — A. Well, 1 don't really understand that. 
 
 Q. Well, at the mouth of the river — should tluire not be a limit where there should 
 be no fishing.'' A. You have no jurisdiction to do that, have you ? If you cut 
 
 Q. Never min<l that. !)(» you think it advisal)le in the interest of the risherie.-, 
 that a portion of the river at the mouth should be e.xchided altogether ?- A. It would 
 be as well that a portion should be set off at the mouth. Of course, if you catch fisli at 
 the mtnitli, you drive them away to othei' places. 
 
 Q. Are you a practical fisliei'nian ? A. I am, and I would like to meet the mai^ 
 that knows more about it. 
 
 Q. Should licen.ses be transfera))le, say to caiuiers and others?- -A. AVell, tin 
 canners never fish their licenses ; they always transfer tiieni to Indians and otheis. .A 
 man should be allowed to transfer liis licen.se if he likes ; suppose he takes sick, he musi 
 get another man to run it. If a license is granted it is min.-, and I should do as I likr 
 
 LSCr.ARY I 
 
 DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES OF CAMADA 
 OTTAWA 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 31 
 
 (^). What (lejttli of nets (Id you use ? A. f tisli witli 1)0, 40 find '>0 meshes. 
 
 Q. What standiinl would you sfiy su])]ios(' one tixed ? A. Thirty and 40 meshes 
 would suit well. 
 ■M (^. Are the fisheries in the Fraser |{i\er -ileereasin^' or inereasinji; within your 
 
 knowledj^e ? - A. Aly di'ar sir, the last year's run you had was as l)i!,' as (-ver seen - it 
 stands to I'eason then that the tish must he inereasini;. This river would supply the 
 \\liol(> world if there were fishermen enouj^h to eatoh them. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledffe of facts of overfishin",' in the Columhia liiver .' A. 
 The Columbia was nevtM' as hiu; a fishing- river as tlu' Fraser. 
 
 Q. Then overtishini,' has no etfeot, you tliiiik '-—A. In a long time it may. 
 
 (,J!, Then do you not tliink it would he i^ood to n.ake rul<-^ for the futui-e? A. Oil, 
 well, it is immaterial to nu' 100 years from now. 
 
 Q. Then you don"t think overfishing would affert the h'raser .' A. No: not in our 
 time ; of course it is ))oun<l to teli in time. 
 
 By Mr, Biggins : 
 
 (^). Mr. Kaye, how many licenses did you hold?- A. 'I'wo ; I api)lied for two. 
 
 ij. Are tht>y personally to you .' -- A. Yes ; I used to j^^et five. 
 
 (,|. Were they issued t(» you as canner or tisiiernian .' — A. As a fisherman. 1 sold 
 my tish. 
 
 t^. Dill ycai hold two licenses last year '. —.\. Yes ; but i let them out. 1 was 
 takt^n sick and I fished them on shares. 
 
 (i. Were you aware that you i;dt two licenses while there were other nu-n who did 
 not yet any ?- A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How do you account tor that ' -A. ( >h, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Who jfiive you the licenses .' A. .Mr. Mowat. 
 
 Q. And you don't thiidv tii(> thrftwinn' in of the offal a l)a(l thing fhjn't you thiidc 
 it has a bad effect? A. No: I tell you there are millions and millions of fish, and the 
 little fish are in myriads- - you could catch a barrel of them in a minute without a net 
 —that will show you how thick they are. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is as mudi olful goes in the river as dead fish come down ? 
 A. Well, f cannot say how many dead tish come down : there are a great nunduT. 
 
 Q. At what season of tlie year is that .' A. In Sei)tember. 
 
 Q. Are they .supposed to poison the ri\er ! A. ( >h, i don't thiid< so -wt' often 
 get them in the nets frou) the back ])art. 
 
 Q. Do you think canners should be dci)ri\ed of licenses ? Say H)0 were gi\en on 
 the river — mouUI you give all of tlie huiuh'ed to tishiM'iiK'n and none to canners ?- -A. 
 No; T would say give so many to canners, and so many to the fishermen. Tlie canners 
 can pi'otect themselves. 
 
 Q. Well, if all were given to tishermen, would they lia\-e a mono})oly ? -A. Oh, yes ; 
 it would be like the Coluud)ia River. The price of fish would i)e put u]). 
 
 Q. You go in for giving licen.ses to all I -A. Yes : I would give them all licenses — 
 if you do, gentlemen, the i)usiness would regulate itself. (Jive tlie jioor man that wants 
 to work a, license, and if he does wrong with it, it is his lookout and not yours. H'the 
 business does not pay, he will get out of it. 
 
 Q. Ha\e you known of Americans or foreigners fishing under licenses to theexelu- 
 sion of IJriti.sh subjects ^ A. Well, 1 have heard of siuli thing.s, but I cannot state so 
 positively. T have known of a stranger to come in and go and iiecome an Englishman 
 ill less than twenty minutes. I don't know how he did it, but it is a fact all the same. 
 
 Q. Well, it lias been stated here that a resident of Washington has got a license 
 here? -A. Well, I guess he went to a broker and fixed thing.. F hav(^ heard lots of 
 things about such instances, but 1 cannot tell exactly. 
 
 t^. J5ut then men who' live here cannot get licenses? — A. Well, it has been done — 
 I have known men get licen.ses who didn't know one end of the net from the other. I 
 don't know how it is done. Then T have known lots of good mt>n here who could not 
 net a licen.s*'. 
 
32 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 si 
 
 By Mr. Wifinot : 
 
 Q. Was that not because the whole number of licenses to be issued were taken 
 up?— A. Well, I don't know what the reason was — they could not get a license, 
 that's all. 
 
 Q. Then you think everybody should get licenses ? — A. Yes ; everybody — the 
 business will regulate itself. 
 
 Q. You speak of dead tish coming down the river^ — how were they coming ? — A. 
 Many were wriggling and nearly dead. 
 
 (.J. Do you think if they got to the sea they would revive ? — A. Well, perhaps, 
 some would — I daresay they would. 
 
 Q. The proportion is so great they come tumbling and wriggling — is that your ex- 
 perience ?- - A. Yes : that is it. 
 
 Q. Would you say "all persons" who got licenses should include the farmer, 
 .settler, fisherman and Indian? — A. No; not by a jugful -if a man has another occupa- 
 tion he should keep at it. 
 
 Q. But these people aie all residents, why should there be any objection ? — A. If 
 a man is a farmer let him stay at farming. I am a fisherman, I don't go farming. 
 
 Q. But would you not let him fish for himself? — A. Oh, yes ; let him fi.sh for 
 himself, but he should not sell. 
 
 Q. Should the Indians get licen.ses ?— A. Yes ; God gave them the fish — the river 
 belonged to them — they should ha\e a license. They were the first people here and I 
 dont see why they, tif all people, should be deprived of the I'ight to fish. 
 
 Q. Well now, can you express an opinion as to what would be a fair number of 
 licenses for the canners? — A. I beg your pardon, sir. I have never been in the cannei'y 
 business. I could not say, and I would not like to hazard an opinion. 
 
 Q. Oh, very well, we thought perhaps you would like to give us an opinion — very 
 well, if you have nothing further ? —A. No, I have no further remarks to make, sir. 
 
 COWAN D. GRANT, of New Westminster, a native of Nova .Sct)tia, and a master 
 mariner, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What are your views in regard to the disposition of the offal in the river ? — A. 
 I think if the offal is put in deep water it has no effect, but if put near the shore it 
 might l)e dangerous. 
 
 Q. Where is the offal generally put, in deep water or along the shores? — A. In 
 deep water generally. 
 
 Q. Are the canneries situated in deep water ? — A. Yes ; most of them are. 
 
 Q. Then as it floats down river it gets into the bays and sloughs ? — A. Well, you 
 don't see much of it — there are so many little fish that eat it up, and if in cribs it will 
 be all consumed. 
 
 Q. Are there cril»s in the canneries? — A. Yes, sir, most of them have them. 
 
 Q. Would small pieces of offal, such as entrails and small pieces, get out of the cribs ? 
 Are they sufficiently close to keep them from going out ?— A. Well, so far as my 
 experience goes, I never see any of it in the nets. 
 
 Q. Have you heard it gets in the nets? — A. Well, I don't know, F never saw it. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the limitation of nets 1 Should they be free to all in 
 numbers, that is to anybody who applies ?— A. J think so, sir, but not to foreigners. 
 
 Q. Do you think one license (juite sufficient for the ordinary fisherman to pursue 
 his operations ? — A. Well, if a man has a contract it would be necessary to have more, 
 perhaps, butif he is just fishingforhimself one might do, butsometimes two would be better. 
 
 Q. Well, but if one got two and another four and so on it would be too numerous — 
 would you not give everyone one each and be sure? — A. Well, perhaps one would be a 
 prf)per numbei". 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 33 
 
 Q. Have you any experience of tlic iiuiiil)er i'e(|iiire(l t'oi' canners to carry on their 
 I)usiness?-A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 (j. You could not j,'ivo an opinion as to the nuinl)er required for an ordinary can- 
 in.py y — A. No, sir : F don't know. Tn a l)ij^ season ten to twenty boats would keep 
 them, l)Ut in a poor season they would want more, perliaj)s ilouhle that. 
 
 Q. Then have you found about twenty or twenty-Hve boats tlie avera,ti;e ? A. I am 
 n.it jiosted in the cannery business, and so I cannot very well tell. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close season is it correct as now ! A. Yes, sir; I 
 think it is all ri.uht. 
 
 (^). Would you jiive ail Sunday foi- a close season .' A. 1 think it would be better 
 to have all Sunday till IJ o'clock. 
 
 Q. Can you express any opinion as to an annual close season would this be atlvis- 
 ablo ? A. Well, at the end of tlie season the sockeyes get very thin and nasty, but our 
 spawniny' grounds are ort' the Fi'aser T don't think it matters. 
 
 Q. iJut if lish get past these nets and get to the tributaries should fishing be allowed 
 fhere — on the tributai'ies ? A. We don't allow any fishing on the tributaries. 
 
 Q. Then you thiid< there should be a close season.' -A. Yes : on these tributaries. 
 
 y. Do you think thc'ie should be a portion at the mouth of the rivtu- where no lish- 
 iiig should be allowed — there is a large amount of fishing do.ie there now ' — A. Yes, a 
 irood deal, and of course it lessens the numi)er wiiich gets uj). 
 
 Q. Would you allow any lb it ish subject to get a license ? — A. Yes, sir ; and the 
 number should not l)e limited. 
 
 Q. Woidd you allow tlie canners to gt^t as many as they want, and also fislu,'rn<en '! 
 \. Yes, sir. 
 
 {). Well, if the canners get all they want what efl'ect would it have 1 A. Well, it 
 would huit the fishermen's business for they depend on the canneries for the sah' of tiieir 
 tisii. but if e\ery man was allowed a license it would regulate itself. 
 
 (^). Would a cannery, if it had sixty licenses ever employ an outside fisherman at 
 all .' -.V. Well, I don't sui)pose they would. 
 
 Q. Then there should be some conti'oUing power as between these industi'ies — that 
 wmdd Ik; fair, would it not / \. Yes, sir ; that seems but fair. 
 
 (.). Well, that i-ould only be done by limitation. What do you think of this sjiecu- 
 lation in licenses do you think it just, for often a deserving man cannot get a license t 
 .\. This should not Ik- done, but a man may lia\e a partner. In the fir^t place a man 
 gets a license and a nund)er, and he is liable for whatc I'r may be dcjiie. 
 
 (}. In the course of your duties as a fishery otficei vou must have noticed the nets, 
 tlicii' length. <lei)th, iVrc. What numlu'r of meshes in d' |ith .ire generally used.' A. 
 Thirty to forty, it depenils upon the channel. 
 
 t,l. Would it be safe to limit the dej)th of net .' .\. No, sir I don I think '-m. 
 
 <^). l)o I understand that the fishermen here ha\i' iM'itiiin localities ' .\. Yt.'s >ome 
 lia\e, 
 
 (,). What portion of the whole number .' .\. I cannot say exactly. 
 
 <). .\ni\ IocmI tishermen should ha\ e depth vif net to suit the watiM' an<l the rest 
 would lune all alike.' A. Ye.-, and the average would be thirty anil forty me he.s. 
 
 Q. JJo you think if the depth of net were lesscuied more fish wouKl get u[) liie river ! 
 .\. Well. I don't know about that, when Saturday comes the fish get up all rigiit. 
 
 ^). When fish com(> in they strike the net, few get under it, veiy few get around it, 
 llin^e that do are caught by the next net. I suppose none get o\fr it .' .\. I ha\i' ^een 
 some jump o\'er it. 
 
 <). None get umlcr it .' A. Well, I think .some get under, llnaigli I do not think 
 the lish take the bottom when they come in. 
 
 /)'// Mr. I! hiijnis : 
 
 <^>. In your experience of salmon do thi'y swim low or high .'^ A. T thiid< high, sir 
 
 (^>. ^'oll think then thirty or forty meshes how many feet would that be.' A 
 .About twenty. 
 
 t^>. in hauling in your lu'ts haxc you found most of the .salmon in the meshes belovr 
 or al)o\e .' A. I'hey mostly strike the top of the net — s(»metimt;s lower down, but 
 generally at the top. 
 
 lOc— 3 
 
34 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 .|! 
 
 Q. You are a practical fisherman ? — A. I have been. 
 
 Q. Did you fish last summer ? — A. I had a partner fishing — I got so many fish out 
 of thos« that were caught. 
 
 Q. Have you any recommendation to make as to licenses going to certain people — 
 do you ever act as broker or know of a tradic in licenses 1 — A. No, sir ; I don't. 
 
 Q. Have you known American citizens to get licenses while men on the river got 
 none? — A. No, sir; T don't know that, but I know plenty of men here who could not 
 get licenses. 
 
 Q. How long have you been employed by the Government ? — A. I have been on 
 two 01' three years. 
 
 Q. Do you fish ? — A. T did last year and two or three years ago. 
 
 Q. Are you still an officer of the department? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In i-egard to the ofFal, you don't know of bad effects from it being thi-own in? — 
 A. No, sir ; not here. 
 
 Q. Is it offensive ? — A. No, sir ; not in deep water. 
 
 Q. Is the number of sahnon that die up the river very large ? — A. Yes, sir, very 
 large, particularly in the creeks. 
 
 Q. Then they are swept into the main rii'er and go down until they dissolve ? — A. 
 Yes, sii'. 
 
 /il/ Mr. Wilinnt : 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen fish in autumn floating down the river ? — A. Oh, yes ; I have 
 seen lots of them. 
 
 7>'/y Mr. Ilijfifinn : 
 
 Q. In regard to licenses — -you say you think licenses should be given to every one, 
 do you think they sliould be made transferable? — A. Well, my idea is you cannot fish 
 alone, you must have a partner and I think it should be applicable to both. 
 
 Q. But as to the traffic in licenses? — A. Oh, well, I don't know as to that, but if I 
 ha\e a partner I don't see why I should not give it to him. The party getting the 
 license is responsible. 
 
 Q. Have you known of anybody except fishermen to hold licenses ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Jii/ Jfr. A rnistrom/ : 
 
 Q. You say you had a license last year and fished it on shares — now, if any one 
 stated you sold lialf of that license for 825, would it be true ? — A. No, sir ; I was to get 
 so many fish out of what were caught, I did not get money. 
 
 liU Mr. Wihtiof : 
 
 Q. In order to clear this matter up a little niore —you made an arrangement witli 
 another man to get a certain jmrtion of the fish ?~--A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, when you reckoned up did he give you fish or nioney ? — A. Oh, he gave 
 me the value of the fish in money. 
 
 yyy Mr. J/iijf/his : 
 Q. When were you appointed an officer ? — A. ( )ii 25th of March. 
 
 />!/ Mr. Ariiisfrony : 
 Q. What pay did you get ? — A. Sixty dollars a month and it lasted for seven months. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. I/i(j(/i)is : 
 
 Q. What effect have steel-heads on salmon spawn ? -A. A very bad efl'ect, sir ; 
 trout also are veiy destructive. 
 
 Q. Then you think it a mistake to preserve the trout? — A. T do. indeed, sir. 
 
 Bi/ Mr Wilmof, : 
 Q. A great deal has been said about fish eating salmon spawn, -do these fisli 
 destroy the aj)awn on the beds or is it the young fish ? A. I have seen trout and steel 
 he.'ids picking up spawn ; I have not seen them rooting for it. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 85 
 
 Bjf Mr. Higginfi : 
 Q. Steel-heads are not preserved by law, are they ? — A. Well, sir, trout are and 
 steel-heads come under that. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wi/inot : 
 
 Q. F>ut no ; steel-heads are not trout — a steel-head is a salmon ? -A. Well, yes ; 
 T supfiose, properly speaking, they are salmon. 
 
 Q. Are any steel-heads to be obtained at this season of the year? — A. I think they 
 are coming in now — they generally come in about the first of March. 
 
 Q. If there are any of these steel-heads brought into town I wou.d ke to see some. 
 — A. I have not seen any yet. 
 
 Mr. HiccuNs. — ^We will be able to see them in Victoria. 
 
 ^[r. Vienna, fish dealer, who was pros -jit, was invited to bring a steel-head, if he 
 could procure one, for inspection by the Commission. 
 
 DANIEL J. MUNN, of New Westminster, a native of Prince Edward Island and a 
 salmon canner, was dulv sworn. 
 
 /if/ Mr. W'dmot : 
 
 Q. Would you prefer to inakt a statement, Mr. Munn, or shall we ask you ques- 
 tions 1— A. Well, perhaps it would be better if you would ask any questions you may 
 (lesii'o. 
 
 Q. Well, wliat do you think on this offiil question? — A. Well, I don't believe that 
 it is injurious to fish, that is to the .salmon ; I think that the scavenger fish do away 
 with nearly all of it. 
 
 Q. What eS'ect do you think it has from a sanitary point of view ? — A. Well, when 
 it is ileposited in deep water I don't think it has any eHect at all. The only place it 
 might be injurious is where it accumulates in large heaps and the sun possibly gets at it, 
 and in that way it might pollute the water. It would then become offensive. 
 
 Q. It is thrown in heaps, is it not? — A. Yes, it is sent out through shoots. We 
 all make it a point to put it in deep water if we can. 
 
 Q. Portions remain in the heaps, I suppose ? — A. When put in deep water it does 
 nor. .At the " Hon Accord " we don't see anything of it after it leaves the floor. 
 
 <^. Well, as to the wind-bags and the parts of the entrails attached, do not these 
 ])arts rise to the surface and float down the river ?— A. I have never seen it — I don't 
 think it does — T have never .seen ofi'al float — a dead fish will. 
 
 Q. Is it sent along the shores of the river or in the sloughs ? — A. A portion of it 
 will float. 
 
 Q. Then that will be the wind-bag.s, itc, won't it? — A. Yes, but the offal itself 
 does not float. 
 
 Q. Will not the wind-bags have a portion of the entrails with them ? -A. Oh ye.s, 
 ;i portion of the entrails will be attached, but that applies mdy to exceptional cases ; I 
 have not .seen much of it. 
 
 Q. Are thfere many residents living along the bays or sicnigh, settlers? — A. Yes. 
 
 (,v>. What efi'ect would it have on })eople living along the sloughs or bays I — A. I 
 don't think it has any effect if the water is filtered. 
 
 (.^. I mean the otfal in the watei- if you were a settler would you like it?- -A. No, 
 I don't think I would, but I think I would take water from a deeper chainiel and filter it. 
 I don't think the water froui the Eraser River is tit to drink at any time uide.ss taken 
 from a deep .source : there is so much dung, sewage, filth, itc, of all kinds thrown in, or 
 drifts in along the banks. 
 
 Q. You think that there are more injuries to the water than olial ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Mu.VN — (continuing). I may say that to dispose of the offal in any other way 
 tliim at j)resent would be very expensive -indeed .so much so that we would have to con- 
 sider it, and I would not like to undertake to dispo.se of it either by going into an oil 
 ivliiiery or by taking it out to sea. 
 
 lOc— 3i 
 
36 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 t¥ 
 
 y i..r:- 
 
 Q. Could you su<,'o,ost ii remedy feasible to carry out, to get rid ot" the ottal ? — A. 
 Well, my way of lookiiijx ut it is that it is not injuiious to saluioii. That if it is iii- 
 jui'ious to people li\iMg along the banks of the river, tiie municipalities might take hold 
 of it as a sanitary measure it is entirely a local matter, T believe, where there could be 
 any cases of complaint, and this is why T think tlw- municipalities should take it uj) instead 
 of the Dominion (Jovernment hampering an important iudustiy l»y imposing unneces- 
 sary expense. 
 
 Q. I may mention that it is a statutory enactment throughout Canada and in most 
 countries that this otVal should not be thi'own into the water, and here where it is so 
 generally done it is a ([uestion of great importance as to what remedy can be devised. 
 Now you speak of the munici))alities taking it up — one municipality might pass a law 
 that it should not be done, whil(> aiR)ther might allow it — you must ha\e some power 
 that would be universal.- -A. Well, I thiidc the Dominion Government should not 
 have this matter in hand. The Provincial (government might look into it. I know 
 that many of the complaints are unfoundcul. 1 went to one man dir'cct myself on the 
 river, who i-aised ([uite a noise about the matter, and asked what he wished us to dc». 
 " W<'11," he said, "I wouhl prefer to put it on my land — we have any amount of land it 
 would benetit." "Well," I said, ''if I take a scow load and put it on your land would 
 you say notiiing inoie about it ?'" "I would not allow it," he said. He knew very well 
 that it would almost cause a pestilence because it wfiuld create lice and otl.''" vermin of 
 all kinds and would desti'oy all the frait trees in the country. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Ai-innfrnn(j : 
 
 i^. Well, sup])osc thei'e was an oil factory, would it l)e vtM'v t'xpensive to take the 
 offal to the factitry ? .\. Well, it would not be so vcny expensive as inconvenient — 
 when tish ai-e running largely, wc have all we can do to look aftei- them. 
 
 Q. Now there is an oil factory started down the river, and if the offal could be 
 manufactured, just to j)ay ex[)enses and nothing moi'e, would it not be a good thing? If 
 all parties would take the oli'al to the factory, I. think tlu'V i-ould afford to work it up .- 
 - A. Well, we would be only too happy to go into that if it is feasiljlc, and if it will pay. 
 r understand that the factory you s[)eak of does not pay, nor begin to pay. It does not 
 get rid of the oflal cnther. They cannot dry it pi'ojjcrly, and cannot make it fit to ship. 
 
 /)'/y J//'. Wihnn/ : 
 
 Q. You stated that you had not heard of persons making conijilaint against throw- 
 ing otial into the river. I may state that the city of New Westminster has made com- 
 plaint as ;i public body, and many persons lia\'e done so. too, from a sanitary standpoint. 
 .\. ^\'ell, I just wish to state, if I said I heard no com])Iaints, that I have lujard 
 comj)laints, l)ut I did not thiidc them good authority. 
 
 (J. lUit the city of New Westminster ought it not to be good authority ? -A. 
 Yes ; l)ut r think the water more hurt by the sewage going in than by the offal. 
 
 i). If tliis comj)lainl is made by the city of New Westminster, and made by the 
 inhabitants and numerous otiieis that it is a nuisance, itc, would it not l)e better for 
 all the canners to club together, and by some means — you could erect machinery, itc, 
 bv a small pittance each not create such an injui'ious nuisance. T don't think it in- 
 jurious to salmon coming in, unless it lixlges in places on shallow grounti here and there 
 it is more fr'om a sanitary standpoint tiiat I should % iew it? A. 1 (I'.ite agree i< 
 would be a proj)er thing to do, l)ut as a canneiy proi)rietor, T am n(jt willing to go into 
 any business unless I have some idea t)f what the expenses will be. Now, about two 
 years ago, Mr. I>egg went around amongst ditlerent canneries and asked them to sub- 
 scribe about .SI, 000 each, in oi'der that he could build an oil refinery ; get scows to con 
 vey the oli'al. &c., and he, of course, was to have the management of it. \\'e went into 
 the matter thoroughly with him and found that he had no experience in the world, and 
 that he knew nothing more than we did ourseKcs ; so we I'efused gi\ing oilr §1,000 
 each. If we saw our way clear that so many dollars a season would dispose of the offal, 
 and advance the general good of the country, itc., we would be only too happy to go 
 into it ; but every dollar you add to the cost of putting up our fish, makes it harder 
 for us in competing with other canneries on the coast. 
 
URITISH COI.UMIUA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 37 
 
 ' by the 
 
 >tt('r for 
 
 'I'V, l^'C, 
 
 ik it ill- 
 
 Ill there 
 
 ii'^n'i' i' 
 
 ) iio into 
 
 out two 
 
 to sub 
 
 s to COIl- 
 
 ■eiit into 
 
 )i'l(l, ;ui(l 
 
 !■ Sl,<»tl'» 
 
 tlie otlal. 
 
 t^. IJut it' tlic law was c'(iiii(!(l out th(> penalty would he very ^^leut and everyone of 
 the fanners would be sul)jeet to this penalty, and at any tiint; the (io\ernnient eould 
 come down and say this lasv must be enforced. Now, would it not be l)etter to arranj^e 
 this before the ju-nalty is exacted I- A. AV'ell, if other eanners enj,'a<,'ed in the business 
 can make it pay I will be very willinj,' to yo into it with others, but as regards the 
 " Hon Accord " (Mr. Munn's cannery) it will bear heavily upon us. 
 
 Q. Where is the " Txtn Accord " ? — A. Four or five miles u]) the river. It would 
 lie adding very much to the cost of wtyking our caiuiery if we had to save offal in any 
 way ; but there is another point as well- we tind it very hard when the run of salmon 
 is on to get labour to take care of the fish in the cannery. It is not like as if we had 
 four or five months in which to do our work — it must l)e <lone inside of a month and 
 our labour nnist be collected inside of that time. 
 
 /iy Mr. Arimiroivj : 
 
 Q. But, Mr. Munn, there is the law -suppose we reconnnend that it does not be 
 stopped — any man can come up and complain and the law must be enforced. Now, 
 would it not be better for the cannerymen to do something to help l)etter this state of 
 things .^ A. Well, as far as [ am concerned I don't care to go into any business I don't 
 understand. 
 
 Q. Hut there is the law ? — A. Well, if the law says we */(//,s/ (emphatically) move 
 oil' the river -all very well. 
 
 Q. Oh, no, I didn't mean that? —A. Well, I maintain if we have to go to the co-st 
 of taking care of that ofl'al other than we do now it is tantamount to forcing us off' the 
 river. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Well, but in Washington and the United Slates there are penalties 
 against the putting in of deltjterious substances in rivers and streams ? A. Yes, if 
 it is injurious to fish. They do throw offal in, in Washington, and if we have to take 
 care of it we will be at a disadvantage with them. 1 agree that it wouhl he well to take 
 care of it if possible, hut not in such a way as to put us to expense. 
 
 ]Mr. Hi(i(iix.s. Change the law. Ask the Dominion (Jovernment to take care of 
 tlie offal. 1 consider the (lovernment shotdd take care of the offal themselves. They 
 should start oil factories, tkc. They protect all kinds of industries, why should they not 
 aiford some protection to this important industry here? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. liut as this is a matter affecting the Province of Hritish Coluud)ia, 
 wliy should not the Provincial (iovernnient hiok after this? 
 
 Mr. Hkjcixs. Oh, no ; the Dominion Government takes cjue of the fisheries, and 
 if the oifal is tleleterious to health and is (h'stroying rivers as places of residence, F think 
 the (Government should step forward and ilo .something to prevent the bad consequences. 
 I think you should not ask the cannerymen to do more than to deliver the offal at the 
 oil factory. 
 
 Mr. ^[uxN. — IJeyond all that, would it not be as well to have a medical officer 
 inspect the river and have it settled whether this offal is really deleterious? 
 
 By Mr. Wilviot : 
 
 Q. Cod fishermen on the coast of Norway, ["Ingland, Sweden, and, I think, in the 
 United States, have been the principal jtarties in asking that offal should not be thrown 
 in because it is deleterious to throw fish in on the coast on account of it driving fish 
 away from their haunts nearer shore. Now, here, I don't think it is (h^leterious to fish 
 coming up, but as a sanitary matter I should think it was decidedly so. A. Well, \ 
 don't think it is as much injury as the sewage thr.twn in and the great nund)ers of 
 dead fish that die up the river. The offal is a small matter compared with them. Then 
 it might t'ven he cheaper, if the offal law is t<,> he enforced, to give the farmers better 
 water bring it down from above to then'. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that the repor: that the habit of catching salmon at Point 
 Uoberts on the United States side and throwing large quantities of them away was 
 harmful to the Fraser Uiver and has been coni|ilained of l)y cannerymen as injurious 
 to your river?- A. I have not heard of it. 
 
 'i| 
 
38 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. HecauHC if this is injuricius by V)einfj thrown out in the Straits, how much more 
 is it injurious in the river itself when they are thrown in ? — A. Well, I don't think so 
 — I di(hi't take any account of that. 
 
 Q. Are not larjje numbers of salmon thrown away when you cannot put them up ? 
 A. Not from our cannery, except once, when we threw away liOO salincm one Sunday 
 night a year ago. 
 
 Q. In catching the (juinnat, what do you do with the white salmon during the 
 season 1 — A. We don't use them — we give theip to the fishermen and they use them as 
 best they can. 
 
 Q. Will they eat them instead of the red salmon ? — A. Certaiidy ; because they 
 get them for nothing -they are e(|ually as good. 
 
 Q. What proportioji of white and red might there be ?— A. I don't know exactly. 
 In August there are more white than in early spring. 
 
 Q. And yet they are caught and not used ? — A. The Indians use them for their 
 own purposes ; they are not wasted. 
 
 Q. Ave they not fretjuently taken out of the net and thrown away ? — A. It may 
 be done to some extent — I have never seen it. 
 
 Q. When you carry on your fishing at the latter end of the season, do you not 
 catch humpbacks as well 1 — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you do with thom ? — A. They are thrown away. 
 
 Q. Then they become offal as well ?~-A. I suppose so. 
 
 Q. Are they very numerous ? — A. Yes ; we catch few sockeyes when the hump- 
 backs are coming in. 
 
 Q. What about the cohoes ; they come in later than the humpbacks, don't they ? 
 — A. They come in later. They are caught by fishermen, but we have no use for them 
 in the caniieiy. 
 
 t^. What are done with the cohoes caught ?- A. They aie canned, but of late 
 years we don't fish for cohoes. 
 
 Q. Aie they fislied for by any other persons ? — A. By some for the fish markets. 
 
 extent 
 
 Q 
 
 them ? 
 Q. 
 
 Are all consumed ? Not thrown away 1 — A. They are not thrown away to any 
 
 If steel-heads ai'e caught in nets while fishing for other fish, what is done with 
 A. They aie canned with the other fish. 
 
 Then the nu)st valuable fish for canning is the sockeyt' ?- -A. Yes; we depend 
 absolutely on the sockeye. 
 
 Q. With regard to the propagation of salmon fortius river, do you think it best to 
 breed oidy sockeyes iind not any other kinds .' — A. Well, I believe more information 
 should be gained of the natural spawning giounds in the countiy befoie they should be 
 artificially hatched, or anything of that kind. We don't know enough about the natural 
 history of the salmon in the jirovince. ^^'e ought to breed spring salmon because that 
 is the best salmon. 
 
 Q. In connection with spring salmon are some niixed red and white ? — A. Yes ; 
 you find them streaky. 
 
 t^. Are they a distinct species, do you think ? — A. Well, I don't know. They seem 
 just as good one with another, red or white, the only diflference is the white one does 
 not suit the taste of consumers. I would jirefer seeing spiing salmon bred. 
 
 Q. Has artificial bleeding been 1)eneticial to the river, do you think? — A. Well, I 
 don't think it is yet beyond the experimental stage. 
 
 Q. As far as it is gone, what do you think / — -A. I don't thii'k we have enough 
 information to say. 
 
 Q. How do you account for the big runs in stmie years ? — A. Up to '81) and '90 
 there were always good years, except '8G. I sln)uld say that the reason the run was so 
 great last yeai' was because tlie spawning conditions were nuich more favourable when 
 the eggs were deposited on the natural grounds, as they were unfavourable in 'iSfi. 
 
 Q. '89, '90 and '91 have heen large runs. Was it usual in foinier yeai-s to see 
 consecutive years large ? — A. Well, last year was better than any off year. With the 
 hatchery as an experiment, I can understand that the big run of last year was owing to 
 favourable conditions when spawn was placed in the rivers. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA PISHERY COMMISSI >■». 
 
 89* 
 
 liy Mr. AriiixlrotKj : 
 
 Q. 1 suppose after tliis years run you will he able to tell better ? — A. Yes; I 
 tliink so. 
 
 Q. W^at is the average weight of tiie stjckeye you can? — A. T shouUl judge about 
 six pounds. 
 
 {.I. Is it not tt fact that all repoits make the average nearei- eight pounds ? — A. I 
 am not a judge of the weight of tish ; I only know how many tish it takes to the case. 
 
 (.^. What is the usual run of cans to a tish ,' — A. Well, in poor years four cans to a 
 tish -in heavy years the fish are always smaller than in poor ones. 
 
 Q. Then one-third of a six-pound tish is ofFal? -A. Somewhere al)(»ut that. 
 
 Q. Then if the average of salmon were eight pounds you would get five cans ? -A. 
 Yes ; about that. 
 
 Q. Then the ofl'al would be three pounds? — A. Yes ; it is a matter of calculation — 
 tlic bigger the tish the le.ss the amount of ofVal. 
 
 i^l. What would be the fair average (piantity of cases put up at a cannery that would 
 l)e remunerative? — A. Well, these are things we cannot tell nuich about ; it all depends 
 upon the market. 
 
 {}. Should a cannery connnence operations or begin to work with machinery for 
 less than 1 0,000 cases ?-- A. I think everyl)ody should go into the cannery business if 
 they want to. 
 
 ]ii/ Mr. Wihnnf : 
 
 Q. Well, supi)ose a man with a capacity of 20,000 cases, and he gets the same num- 
 ber of licenses as one who packs 10,000 ca.ses, would it be just ! A. No ; a man's pack 
 sliiaild be consulted. 
 
 Q. Do you think 10,000 ca.sesa fair number for twenty licenses ? — A. T don't think 
 any such aiTangement should be made at all. This twenty license .system is not a good 
 one in the way it has been worked. It all depends. 
 
 Q. What do you say to uidimited licenses, both to cannersand fishermen ? A. That 
 is to say, that any per.son could get one oi- as many as they wish ? 
 
 Bi/ Mr. ll'ujgius : 
 
 Q. If you want ten as an individual you should get it ? How would you woi'k it? — 
 .\. Well, laljour regulates all that, and then it would be putting the river on the same 
 basis as any other enter[)rise. A cannery should have a number of license;; not neces- 
 sarily estitblished but as long as he can get as many as he requiies. 
 
 (,). In the case of a cannery which shut down for the seasoi;, what tiien ? A. ^^'ell, 
 they would not need any licenses. If there is an established law >u> nne will take out 
 more licenses than they re([uire. 
 
 /h/ Mr. W'dinnt : 
 
 (). Then a cannery should get a minimum number? A. Yes; if it is necessary to 
 establish a Hxed number of any kind, but my piinciple is that a cannery or individual 
 should get a license, or any number of licenses upon application and |)ayment of the 
 license fee. 
 
 (}. Then one caiuieryman could go and say, 1 want one hundred licenses ; another 
 says, 1 want ten then the man with ten would have to rely upon the ordinary tisher- 
 uicn ? -A. Yes; if you have a ti.xed number, but it depends upon the law _»-ou have- -if 
 you say thei'e must be a limit to the number of boats on the river, there should be a mini- 
 iiiiuii number, but I would do away with any Hxed number on the river to fishermen oi* 
 canners. 
 
 <^). Then the (>overnment would have to i)ut thwn up to auction ,' — A. No ; not 
 necessarily 
 
 /)!/ Mr. lliyyins : 
 
 (i>. Well, T think this would pass the whole l)usiness into a monopoly. — A. Why, 
 the fishermen can make it just as great a monopoly. 
 
-40 
 
 MAUrNE AND FfSHKRIES. 
 
 V.'.\' 
 
 ':!: 
 
 i.i. Not unless they had cajntal ?- -A. Well, do you think cauners luivc ul).solut(f 
 cojiti-ol of lahoiir to run an unlimited nuniher of hoats .' It is just this way ; the eanners 
 jii'efei' having ;,'o()d eontiact (isheinien to finy other «vstein so long as we can feel secure 
 ourselves. 
 
 //// Mr. Wl/niof : 
 
 Q. Veiy true, Init you could dictate to the settlei' eouiing in if you had all tlie 
 boats / A. J5ut where are we to get our IaV)oui' for all these lioats '! 
 
 Q. liut persons coming out to ihitish Columbia fi'om other countries, they cannot 
 get licenses? A. |}ut if eveiybody could get licenses how wouhl we have a monopoly? 
 Just following out this piinciple, suppose the canners were given a limited nundier and 
 you gave licenses to everyone who came into the country, would not the fisheiiuen have 
 a monopoly ? You aie working on a wrong basis if you imagine a monopoly can be 
 estal)lished by allowing free licenses on the ri\er let evei-y lisheiinan come in and get 
 a license and canners get all the licenses they want. 
 
 Q. Well, sui)pose cannei's were fixed at a minimum numl)er of licenses, say fifteen 
 or twenty l)oats the maximum nund)er of boats a canner could get, leaving it free for all 
 canners wanting to go into the business to get some, and one fisherman to get one 
 license each. The canners would Jilways have enough to run their establishments, and 
 if they wanted moie fish they cmiid buy from the tisjiermen. Would not this eijualize 
 matters f A. That is a practicnl proposition: T cannot see though what difference it 
 would make to my idea. Ian; reasoning for having a fixed nund)er for each cannei-y, as 
 our Indian labour must be given emi>ioyment. They aie the l)est kind of labomwecan 
 get. They come and bring their families with them, and these latter — their women 
 and children find employment inside the cannery. We require a certain nuinl)er t>f 
 b:mts e:icii day, and we send them out. Ft is our loss if they do not bring in enougii 
 fish to pay. But at i)resent witii the limitation in the numbei- of licenses, it prevents 
 people coming in because they cannot get licenses. Vor instance, Hob (birdiner, a 
 white man, fishing in 1880 S7SS, he brought his family with him. and there was no 
 limitation in the number of licenses in 1888, and it was not necessary to take out a 
 license. In no particulai' name he fished on one of our licenses. His name did not 
 appear on the books at the inspector's office, aiul next year he was refused a license 
 because his name did not appear. Since then we have given some of his boys a boat to 
 fish. When he fouud lie could not get a license, he did not come down next year, and 
 thus you prevent laboui- from coming. We reijuire a certain nuud^er of licenses to 
 encourage as much labour to come as possible, for of what value ai'e green fish unless 
 you can use them and have labour' to put them uj) with ? 
 
 Q. But would it not be better to induce white men instead of Indians? -A. Well, 
 there would be room for all. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. Ariii.'ifron!/ : 
 
 Q. Our Indians are different to yours in the east. They work all the yeai' round 
 and spend their money in the country. A. Now, there is another matter. A', e want 
 this labour to take the place of Chinamen, but if the limitation continues how are we to 
 do uidess by employing Chinamen and other cheap laboui' .' Now as to giving licenses 
 to all, it does not matter as long as we can get a number of licenses and are sure of that. 
 
 Jti/ J/r. J/i//!/i>i.'i : 
 
 Q. But if we gave you 100 licenses, we place fishermen at youi' mercy ? — A. Oh, 
 no ; but when you give a limited nund)er on the river it hurts all. 
 
 Q. Well, I believe the time is coining when the number of canneries on the Fi-aser 
 should be limited ? A. Well, then, that will be a monopoly. 
 
 Q. But we must not place any one class at the mercy of the other ? 
 
 Ih/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that a cannei-y gets twenty, thirty oi- forty licenses, as the case may 
 be, and then hires licenses out, and when fish are wort a 20 cents each, the fishermen 
 gives his fish and gets but 10 cents each? — A. It is a practice to fish on shares ; we 
 never sold our licenses : we always did it on shares. 
 
imiTrsH COLUMHIA KISIIKIIT cnMMISSION. 
 
 41 
 
 C^. Tlioii tlifit iniui is liiiiiiiH'ird \>\ getting,' \i) rents tor his tisli, fur it' lio <;(>t u 
 lict'iise himself IxMvoiiltl yet L'O cents ? — A. Yes; nf eoiirse it (h'pends. We vsuik on 
 shares and niai<e the ai'i'an;,'enient with the men now hdioiii' is seaice, we put two 
 men to a hoat and allow them 10 cents for each tish, al(hoii;,di we piefer to hny our 
 fish, and then thoy (the ti.sheinien) are responsible for their own Imat and net. 
 
 />'// Mr. Aniistfiiii<i : 
 
 (^. You j<i\e them a lioat and net when they tish on sliar<'s how nnu'ii do tlu'se 
 cost? — A. Oh, 61 10 for a lioat and net: hut as long as good lalxiui' is encouraged to 
 come into the i-ountry we have no i-ause (tf coini)laint, Imt the way tinngs have Iteeu 
 working it has l)een injurious in evei-y way. 
 
 lill Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 (^. What would he a fair average catch of tish for a boat during the last three 
 si-asons .' — A. It varies .sometimes ;{,()()U or 4,000. 
 
 (^. Statements were made yesterday that ;},000 and 4,000 were caught and deli 
 vcred to the canntM'ies f -A. Yes ; that is cori'ect. 
 
 (,). Then 700 of those salmon would eciuip a man, at "JO cents each? — A. Yes. 
 
 (,|. And he would have then the ditlei'ence between that, namely, L',.'^00 tish as his 
 own individual protit ? -A. \\\\\, 1 don't see why the caniier\men should not go into a 
 little sju'culation if they liked. We always make the best bargain we can ; but there 
 is one thing you must not overlook, namely, that 700 tish does not rcjtresent the; cost 
 of the tishing outfit, boat and license, net, waste, loss, t^c. You must also take into con- 
 sideration that the.se nets are snagged (»nee, twice, or three times a year ; and we have 
 to ha\e a man to look after these nets as well. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. Arnixtron;/ : 
 
 Q. Is 20 cents the average price for tish ?— A. No, .sir ; it is not — it varie.s. 
 Q. Well, what is an avei'age price / A. I have bought some at -*0 cents, some at 
 I'), and some at 10 cents — it changes. 
 
 <^. The avei'age price would not be la cents, then .' A. No ; not 1"). 
 
 Bjf Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. What are your views in regard to the weekly close season? — A. T think our 
 close season as at pre.sent is ([uite sutiicient and T would strongly protest against any 
 change. 
 
 i}. What is the object of the weekly close season ? A. The object was to allow 
 tish to pass uj) the I'iver. 
 
 (.}. Not f(»r keeping the Sabbath ?- -A. J suppose not — there is a double object 
 tlintigh -T don't expect people to work on Sunday if they can avoid it. 
 
 t^. Canners asked that the clo.se season be changed by changing from Monday morn- 
 ing back to 6 o'clock Sunday night?— A. Just let me explain. As far as T know 
 anything about it from the time I iiave been on the river from when 1 came here first 
 up to S'J-iJO, there was'.'iO hours close time, from Saturday noon to Sunday evening at 6 
 o'clock. 1 have never asked noi" desired any change from that. I nuiy tell you that up 
 to the two years ago when this change was made from Saturday evening to Monday 
 liKii'iiing at f) o'clock there was more real work on Sunday than any time else, and when 
 I told you we threw away .'100 fish at the " Don Accord'' it was on account of asking 
 our men to work on Sunday morning, and consecjuently it always was very ditlicult to 
 g<'t our hands on", to work on Sunday. Why T object to extending the tbhe to midnight 
 Sunday would be that the guardians could not see if any tishing was going on. 1 
 lielieve the law should be fixed so all could see if it was enforced. They could see that 
 11" one went out bef'-rc !) p.m., but could not see if any went out at 12 i>'clock. 
 
 Q. Well, ii Sunday is worthy of Ijeing a holiday, and having work prevented on 
 that day — qu M-y, why whole day or one-third /--A. Well, our .season is only rive or six 
 weeks ; we have to guarantee so much work to our hands- -so many days" work, their 
 food and their taxes. 
 
42 
 
 MAKINE AND FIStlERIEH. 
 
 Q. \a's ; hut you ciiU'rcd into a spciuli'.tinii in cstublisliinj,' ii caiiiuM'y witli ull tlu'sc 
 thiu^^s known? A. Y»'s : hut we tVcl we aic lmvin<,' a hard time to conijictc witli othtT 
 j)att.s ot' thr coast. If we arc pushed too hard \vc will have to leave tlie liusiness. 
 Alaska and the Colundiia Wivcr arc hard to compete with, and we should he treated 
 lilierally, not in such a little tiillini,' way as to hother us with a few hours on Sunday. 
 
 (.^. Oil, I don't think these niatteis arc such trifles, they allect the whole com 
 inuiiity /- A. I would only say that when you have to depend upon the short time 
 four or five weeks- you cannot stoj> at such little trilles. Sunday work is often neces 
 sary, hut we wish to avoid i. as much as possihle. 
 
 (.^. Tlien what you .say is the ]>ie.sent law is all right? — A. I have the laws of the 
 adjoining States here respecting the close sea.sons. 1 see the State of Washington has 
 a weekly do.se time from p.m., Satur<lay, to (1 p.m., Monday. 
 
 Mr. HnioiNs.- NN'h.it is tlu- weeklv close time in Oregon .' 
 
 •Mr. Mrw. (lieading from his copy) Metween fi p.m. on each and every Saturday, 
 and () o'clock in the evening of the following Monday. 
 
 ^fi'. Hnniixs. — What is the date of that .statute you have? 
 
 Mr. Minn. Eleventh of Fei)ruary, IHUI. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 i}. 1 would state that we iiave evidence here to show that the canners themselves 
 asked that the close sea.son should commence at (1 o'clock Satuiday mornitig and 
 continue until (5 p.m., Sunday.- A. Yes ; hut we considered that if the (iovernmeni 
 was hound to have six hours more than usual, we should have them on Saturday morn 
 ing instead of putting them on Sunday night. 
 
 Q. What do you think of an annual clo.se season ?■ A. I think the Fra.ser River 
 is amply protected now : I would not advocate any annual close season. 
 
 ii. The State of California has a law prohil)iting the taking of salmon from the Isl 
 of August to the 1st of November. (Mr. Wilmot here read extracts from departmental 
 tile. No. S47S, in reference to this matter.) 
 
 ^i- Wiien do the humphacks hegin to enter the liviM?- A. Tt) Sej)temhei', though 
 it is more diHicult to go up the river in l()w water than when th(^ rocks are 
 covered. lUit theic is a good deal <if ditl'erence between the I'egulations on the Fraser 
 River ami tho.se on the dthnnhia. On the Fraser Rivei' tishing is limited to tidal 
 water ; on the other side, I hclicve, they tish very many miles above tidal water on 
 the Cohunbia. On this side the Fraser iiiver -vve have ikj [jound-nets, traps, nor 
 tish-wheels : these have nevei' been used here, since 1S7() at least, and all are n.sed on 
 the otiiei- side. Then we have bad a weekly close time of thirty and thirty-six hours 
 since 1S7(), and over therc^ it was never enfoi'ced until two years ago. Now these arc 
 three of the most important things, and which I consider will protect the river against 
 any possii)le over f"' hing. 
 
 Q. But why d>. the Cohnnbia peopit; say their river has been depleted by ovei- 
 tishing ? — A. Well, they ha\ c never had the benefit of our laws. Then they never kept 
 one-thiid of the river open. 
 
 Q. Is it kej)t so lu-re ? A. Yes: I believe so always. Then there is the cost of 
 licenses; they don't have any charge at all. Then we have small ine.shed net.s ; T can- 
 not find anything over there I'cgulating this matter. 
 
 (}. Is it not better for the fishermen to have small meshed nets? — A. Y\'S ; but 
 there is a possibility of burdening us down with too nmch law. We should be treated 
 so as to compete successfully with the Cohnnbia River. 
 
 Mr. WiL.Mor. — i)Ut 1 don't think you ai'e being ovei'bui'dened. T think the can- 
 ners have been al)le to make the canning business a most profitable one. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTiioNfj. — Y'es : I think so too. 
 
 The Conuuissioners adjourned at 12.30 p.m., to meet at 2 p.m. 
 
HUITI8II COMIMIUA FISHERY lMtMMI.S>t()N. 
 
 43 
 
 'I'lip ("(iinmission rcussrinltlcd iit •_' |>.iii. at ilic Coiiit Ikhisc, New VVcstininHter, 
 till- t'lill liMtii'd being in Htt<Muliinc(>. 
 
 Mr. MINN, on !« ing ivcallfd : — 
 
 Me. Wri.MOT. -Ml'. Munii, you art' still under examination. 
 slruiii,' is desirous of aslcing you a tew ijuestions. 
 
 .Mr. SiieritV Arni- 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Will you kindly tell us what it costs you to put up a ease of salmon, that is tlio 
 •aye eost .' A. Well, if that (|uestion .should and must Ih" answered all r'ij,'ht l)Ul I 
 t w ish to di\ ulf,'e my business to the world. T don't think I should be asked that 
 
 iliin 
 
 (luestion. 
 
 Q. Well, it hiXH been stated here that yon can well allbrd t(( put up a cannery at a 
 t of !i<r),()00, and make .*i'20,000 by getting more licen.ses. Now, how are we to knt>\v 
 
 that : how are we t(» get at the facts if we do not get authentic tiyures as to cos 
 
 t, Sn 
 
 from you '.' "A. Well, if they did make a i)ig sti'ike out of the twenty licenses, it i.s 
 certainly by the most favonable circumstances. It is only once to my knowledge 
 timt a great strike has been made and made with safety. 
 
 (.). Now, ther<' were canneries put up this year ; was not it in order to earn those 
 t'\'iity licenses ?~- -A. Well, partly, and ]iartly because cann<>i's had found that their 
 brand w.-is worth mor(^ than their twenty licenses would supply. 
 
 Q. Well, if they make that many, why decline to give us the tigui'es ? A. Well, 
 that is the oidy year. I will give information to you in this way: If the markc^t con- 
 liiuies as at present 
 
 i}. lUit give us the average for the time you were in the business .' -Well, the 
 incrage cost is about iir.S.T') the case. 
 
 t^). What doe.s it cost to ship them to JMigland, on tin; average.' Well, I cuuld nut 
 tell ; I could not give you an average : we have damaged caigoes. S:v. 
 
 (,•. N\'ell, but vour avera'^e 
 
 A. I 1 
 
 lave not tiy-ured it ii 
 
 i^> Well, but could you not let us kiio 
 
 .\. Well, I don't want to tell the world 
 
 A. Well, T would not like 
 
 am doing. 1 will tell you this: that for the last IS months the best salmon in 
 Kngiand has not been above IS shillings. 
 
 (}. Well, is 8'5.7") a fair cost for getting good returns 
 to say. T don't think it costs much i)clow that and other e.xjienscs will bring the co.st 
 ii|i to 84.50, delivei'ed in England. Then there are reclamations that come back on us 
 jit' !i^h are not in good condition, ttc. Certainly I should say that this e.xtra expense is 
 not less than 7o cents a ease. 
 
 By Mr. Hir/gms : 
 
 I (}. Ha\(' you any clear idea what canners intend to do with the oil'al this year? — 
 
 I A. I don't know of any arrangement. As far as T am concerned I tliiuk, though the 
 r'Tion .\ccord" needs to be I'tMiewed, 1 shall not go in it to expend one single dollar iijxni 
 Itlic place until tlie oti'al ([uesti.on is settled, becau.se if we ai'c obliged to haul offal we 
 iw ill shut down and go down amongst the others below the city. We will regret this, 
 |l)c(ause the advantages at the " iion .\ccord " are excellent, with an abundant sui])ly 
 lof li'ood fresh water, d'c, and naturally 1 feel anxious to know how we are to be treated ; 
 laiul if the offal law is going to be enforced, T feel it would be ftiolish for us to rebuild. 
 -Mr. WiLMoT. — Since hearing you this morning T liav(> noticed an article in one of 
 lyiiur papers in connection with the cpiestion of fish oH'al -samples which have been sent 
 Idown to Ontario from British Coliiml)ia and analysed by Professor James of the Ontario 
 llJepartnient of Agriculture. I will just i-ead it. 
 
 I Mr. Wilmot proceeded to read extracts from the article which, in th(^ Victoria 
 IC'olduist of 20th February, IS92, appeared as follows : 
 
44 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 FISH AS A KKHTITJZIvK. 
 
 TllK O.NTAIUO DKI'AlfTVI..\T OF AcililCrLTlHK liKI'OHT Ul'OX JJkITISII CoiAMHlA SAMPLKS. - 
 
 An Indi.sthv whosk dkvklopmknt mkans micii koh this Phovinci:. 
 
 Ill tlie iiiinual ivjoit of tlie Deiiiirtiiient of A<j;ricultiiie of the Proviiicf of Ontarin, 
 for ISyi. tlic follo\viii<;- analysis appears from the Clieniical l^ahoratoiy of the Ontaiin 
 Agricultural College, (iuelph, by C. C. James, Professor of Chemistiv. 
 
 Four samples of tish were broufjlit east from iJritisli Columhia, hy Mr. Alexandor 
 Jleg<;, for the purpo.se of aseertaiiiing the comparative value of each kind. The saini>lt- 
 were placed in tin case.s, and soldered. They reached Toronto in March, 1891. Tin 
 cases were iiunihered 1, '2, 3 and 4. 
 
 No. 1 lontaincd head and entrails of codfish. 
 
 No. 2 contained Ji whole (lo<,'tisli. 
 
 No. .'{ contained divided salmon, as cannery refu.se. 
 
 No. 1 contained whole herrings. 
 
 Professor James reports that taken from the cases as received, they consisted of tln' 
 
 following 
 
 1 2 3 
 
 AVater 7011 77 17 77 
 
 Dry matter L>!t • 8!) L>2 • S;{ 22 
 
 04 
 
 4 
 
 77- 50 
 22 • 50 
 
 By thoroughly drying, as far as was possible, the amount of water was reduced ti' 
 about four jiei' cent, so that in drying the material was reduced to abou*: one-fourth dij 
 its original weight. The dried material gave the following by analysis: - 
 
 1 2 ?, 4 
 
 Water 5-91 5 • 7() 2 ■ OS 7 ■ 4S 
 
 A.sh 17-62 I.S-4S 13-54 1015 
 
 Organic matter 7(5 - 47 75 ■ 70 84-38 82-37 
 
 100 00 100-00 100 00 100 00 
 
 T( 111' 
 
 Oil or fat 27-21 25 - 55 
 
 Nitrogen G - 32 7 ' 80 
 
 Phosphoric acid 5-70 G - ()7 
 
 Pota.sh - 3() 0-51 
 
 06-95 18-29 
 
 5 ■ 55 7 - 96 
 
 4-79 2-72 
 
 0-58 0-21 
 
 2 
 
 
 ? 
 
 4 
 
 10-00 
 
 ,s 
 
 00 
 
 1000 
 
 10-00 
 
 12 
 
 -00 
 
 - 50 
 
 8 - 50 
 
 11 
 
 -00 
 
 3 • 50 
 
 •50 
 
 1 
 
 ■00 
 
 -30 
 
 Tf the matei-ials were deprived of their oil or fat and manufactured into a dried! 
 well powderefl fertilizer, without the admi.xture of anything foreign or additional, itj 
 wnuld liii\e about the following composition, as far as its most \aluable fertilizing conT 
 stituents are concerned : 
 
 1 
 
 Water 10 00 
 
 Nitrogen 8-50 
 
 Pliosi)horic acid 7 50 
 
 Potash - 50 
 
 An aii;ilysis by Arendt of Norwegian tish scrap gave of 
 
 Moisture 17 per cent. 
 
 Nitrogen 10^, 
 
 Phosphoric acid 4 " 
 
 Organic matter 72 " 
 
 Ashes 12 
 
 Olher samples ha\e shown more phosrlioric acid (13 to 15 per cent) and k'?;! 
 nitrogen (8.1, to 9 per cent). Some of them Aci-e scrap tliat hail been steamed to removeF 
 the oil. 
 
lUtlTISH COI.r.MBIA FISHERY COM.MtSSlON. 
 
 45 
 
 SAMl'LES.— 
 
 of Ontiirin, \ 
 the Ontarii. 
 
 It will thus he S'"n that a most execllont t'ertilizei' can he pfodueed fi-om any out! oi- 
 
 nil of the fish refuse sent here for analysis, hy (u) extractini,' the tat or oil, (A) reniovi 
 
 n<' 
 
 I the excess of nioistui'e by dryini;-, (c) tlioroui(hly puivcri/.inu;. The fertilizer tluis pro- 
 duced would be rich in nitroj^jjen and phosphoric acid, hut would he deficient in potash. 
 To make a complete fertilizer of it an adilition of sulphate of potash mi<iht he made. 
 Without the complete extraction of oil and salt a?id effective (h'viii.u', a finely pulverized 
 
 K 
 
 naiio cai 
 
 mot he obtained. 
 
 Norwegian fish potasli /[{uano tlius produced contains as follows, according to Dr. 
 Ml 
 
 Critlith's "Artificial Manures 
 
 listed of t!i' 
 
 Cod 1111(1 Hi'rriiii' and 
 
 Potash 
 
 I'ot 
 
 iisli. 
 
 7 (»■") 
 S • 00 
 
 Nitrogen equal to ammonia 7 00 
 
 Ph.isphates (H.sh bone) L'OOO 
 
 Potash (suliiiiate) loOO l.")00 
 
 Magnesia 10 ■ 00 10 • 00 
 
 Sundry matter 1 • 0(J 1 • 00 
 
 ') ■ 00 
 
 Wat 
 
 er, 
 
 o • 00 
 
 way 
 L'uaii 
 
 "These fish guanos are shipped from .(anseu's woiV.s in the Lofoden islands (Nor- 
 I. and conveyed to I'^iiglaml, ' and, according to the same authority, Knglish fish 
 OS (without jiotash) sell from £.") 10s. to £() per ton. .American lisii and |)otash .se 
 
 ided to the fish refuse, ;ind 
 
 at from i?L'-"> to -S-i'i per ton. Potash and phosphates are ac 
 
 thc\ contain from "J-, to t.', per cent of nitrogen; tn :ii .'i to I ."i per cent of phosphoric 
 
 ariil. and from .'5 to I'l per cent of potasli. '■'■■ -i- * -i^ ■> 
 
 Prof. Storer, of tlie Agricultural Dejiartnient. nt' Harvard, in his "'Agriculture in 
 
 |s(ime <if its Heiations tii Chemistry,"' says : " 'I'lie American fish guano is a product 
 
 itaincd incidentally in the manufacture of oil from a coarser .sort of heri'iiiL;' called the 
 
 iciiiiadcn or pogy. 
 
 Mr. Watt, of Aberdeen, in the repnrt of the transactions of the 
 lligiiland Agricultural Society of Scotland, for l8Sti, page 'JO,'), .says: "The oil from the 
 llicrringis serviceal)le for a great many industrial purposes for t he preparation of leatlier, 
 II the treatment of \egetai)le hlires prior to spinning', in the manufacture of soap (wliieh 
 s t lie great use to which the iinalogous menhaden oil is turned in America), and for 
 iihrication and imrniim. ' 
 
 rotessor ■(lines savs iii relation to the comniei'cial \alue ot the materia 
 
 that 
 
 ■ from one ton of undried refuse and herrings there should be obtained at least lOO 
 
 or 
 ler ton, or the ton of raw fresh 
 
 hiiiuiids of oil, and perhaps niiuh more : and from K)(> to ■'(00 pounds of tisli guano 
 fcrtiliziir — the latter worth between -S-'O and ."?.'')() ) 
 
 material slradd }iroduce oil and fertilizer worth at least .SI-"), and perhaps 8'JO. On this 
 (|uestioii of value of j)roductioii, Mr. Watt speaks as follows : *' From lU tons of average 
 
 )uld be obtained 1.', tons of oil perh;ijis. and two 
 .allons well' obtained, which is a moderate estimate, 
 
 leiriiiijjs in the iishiny season thert^ \vi 
 
 tons o 
 
 f fisl 
 
 1 ijuano. 
 
 it, sav 
 
 ;ioo 
 
 and the price '2 shillings a gallon, which niighl jirobably be realized, the oil of Id tons of 
 Hsh would produce iJ'M). Then there woulil be two tons of guano .it I'lU per ton. 'I'hus, 
 if estimates are at all trustworthy, something like £') a ton might lie r(>alized through 
 the manipulation of herrings as a raw ni.iteiial of oil iind manure. " Tin- abosc \alue of 
 ,£•'» is, pei'haps, too high for this country, but making allowance for that, our \aluation 
 (if .-il.') to iii'O p(>r ton will not be iinu'li astray. 
 
 CoNclA'sioN l''roin the consideration of the \\ hole ciuesiion, I am of the opinion 
 
 iliat the manufacture of the refill 
 
 into fertilizer is stronulv t 
 
 o he recoinmeiK 
 
 led 
 
 liccausc 
 
 1st. it will thus utilize a by product that otherwise i'^ ,i lot.nl los:- 
 
 .'IK 
 
 1. it will 
 
 ]ire\('nt the waters from lieiiig conlaminateil. 
 
 .'h'd. its proper inanagement must tend towards a more lie.ilthful surrounding. 
 Itli. its return to the soils of the farm will partly olVset the waste of our cities by 
 ■rage carried to the lakes and i'i\ers. 
 "itli. If properly handled it will pay well. 
 
46 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 il .31 
 
 From the great importance of this question to the health of the community, the 
 welfare of the fishing industry, and the progress of agriculture, I have endeavoured to 
 reply at this length. 
 
 [Professor James is entitled to the best thanks of the people of British Columliia 
 for his able and exhaustive i-eport on a subject of so much interest to the province, as 
 well as to the rest of the Dominion. On in(juiry it is found that the Minister of 
 Agriculture for Ontaiio had the analysis made at the Agricultural College free of anv I 
 charge. It is further learned that Mr. Kegg procured the samples of tish and took them | 
 to Toronto at his own expense.] 
 
 Mr. MuxN. That gentleman undertakes to say that it would j«iy well. We should I 
 only be too happy to have that man's capital interested in the business. Besides that, i 
 if it is a contamination to the watei-, &c., if it is well that it should be used, why not i,'o M 
 up the river and take the salmon that are found dead ? Theie are a great many of tliciii j 
 and I think there would be more money in it than there would be in taking the otl'al \ 
 from the cannei'ies. I would suggest this. We are anxious to have the regulatimb 
 established on some permanent basis. Fiom year to year we are in jeopardy — we doiit 
 know the number of licenses we will get, five, ten, or forty. It was varied in '89- some had M 
 forty, some eighteen, and so on according to the previous pack -the number was different. 
 Last year, for instance, we had to order our material in October and the regulations tm 
 fishing were adopted in May, and, that I contend, was not giving our industry fair play. 
 and the sooner it is settled the better. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do you think all canneries should have the same number of licen.ses ? — A. I 
 don't believe in establishing any number, either for the canneries or for individuals. 
 
 Q. But if an establishment were made should all have the same number? — A. Nu: 
 that would not be equity I think not. 
 
 Q. Then the person building the mo.st extensive establishment .should get the mo.st' 
 — A. Yes, I think a man i)utting up a big establishment would be in a better positinn 
 to put up a better article. 
 
 By Mr. WUmot : 
 
 C^. Then a big cannery puts up abetter ai'ticle than a small one ?- A. No, iiot| 
 necessarily, but it is a well-known fact that a person doing an 'im > ..se busincssj 
 has more opportunities for making the article he is putting up a tirst-class article and 
 that his goods ai-e well thought of in the market. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Munn, I think we have questioned you quite at length now — is thtiH 
 anything further you wimld wish to present to us I — A. T can think of nothing furtlui 1 
 just at present. 
 
 Q- 
 
 Q. 
 
 J 
 
 P. McTlEUNAN, Indian Agent, of New Westminster, a resident of IJritish Coluin 
 bia for thirty-four years, was duly sworn. 
 
 Mr. McTiKHXAN. — ^Tlie reason of my coming here l)efore you is that I want i^^ 
 make representations on b(>half of the Indians of this country to the etlect that they aivi 
 not fairly treated. There are about .'5,000 or ;5,.")00 Indians tishiiig on the Fra.ser Bivt'i|| 
 and they have only forty licenses. Now, they bitterly complain about this, and I cniiiii 
 before your Connnission to .see that you rectify this in .some nianuer. They should uvtl 
 at least 100 licen.ses. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 i}. If tlie licenses iu'e unlimited and all tishei'men and Uritish subject get iiceiisis, 
 they W(juld come under the same rule as others? .V. But there are onlv foi'tv licensi- 
 granted at present ; 1 have nothing more to say. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 47 
 
 By Mr. Higgins ; 
 
 Q. Well, but are they i)roliil)ite<l from ti.shiiij,' ? -A. Oli, no ; they fish !i flays work 
 
 the forty can sell tish to the canneries, while tlie others are obliged to work for the 
 
 canneries at per day's pay. Some Indians make .~?000 or .^1^00 a year and perhaps some 
 SI. 000 a year — -that is those who have licenses, and those who have n(;t come home with 
 purely nothing, and really these rndians are the bone and sinew of the country and they 
 spend theii- money in the country too. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 <i. They are preferable to Chinanjen, are they not ? — A. Ugh — (laughter) — -there is 
 IK it the slightest comparison. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. How is it they make more money than those who do not hold licenses ? — A. 
 IVcause they sell their tish for 10 cents, oi' whatever the })rice may be, and the men 
 wIkj "■ >rk by the day get 81.2") or !?1.")0 only. Now, I could tell you that at Langley 
 where they are a numerous and fine able-bodied lot of men, thei'e is not one license, and 
 the few licenses that are given are given to Indians of Cocjuitlam at Kitse. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 I might read for your information that tliis is the ])resent statute ; — 
 
 " Fishing by means of nets or other apparatus without leases or licenses from the 
 Minister of Marine and Fisheries, is prohibited in all waters of .the Province of Briti-sh 
 Columbia. 
 
 "Provided always tiiat Indians sludl at all times have liberty to tish for the purpose 
 of providing food for thems*'lves, but not for sale, l)arter, oi' traflit', by any means other 
 than drift nets or speai'ing." 
 
 Now this means if they ask for lii-enses they will l)e placed on the same basis as 
 white men. but if fishing at all timers for themselves they must not enter into competition 
 with the white men. You see the intention is that the Indians being tlie first pe(jple of 
 the country, they were given the j)rivilegeof fishing for their own use, but if they wished 
 to get into trade and become a regular fishei'man, they nmst take out licenses. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. How many out of the .^,000 Indians would be able to ])rovide themselves with a 
 boat and net ? — A. I could not say -that would \)v left to themselve.s. I think at least 
 one hundred on the Fi'aser Ki\er would so pro\ide themselves. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. In all the fishery laws of the Dominion the Indijinis given ])i'iority over the 
 white man, that is an Indian may fish without a license as long as he does not trade or 
 itish Colum ^| barter I — A. But that is just what the Indian wants he wants licenses .so as to sell. 
 
 Q. But the number l)eing limited the Indians only get forty, but if the number was 
 cxttMided to all, evfMybody would get it? — \. I>ut you see the Indians are entitlinl before 
 any otlier partie.s, and they only get forty wiiilc the cannerymen get a lai'ge numl)er. I 
 tell you, gentlemen, it is a \ery hard matter, ami I Impe something can be done to im{)rove 
 it. Thank you. gentlemen, that is all 1 iia\c to say. i simply came here to speak for 
 1 the Imlians. 
 
48 
 
 .MAKINK AND 'FrsHERlES. 
 
 SI' 
 
 m 
 If- 
 
 GEf)l{<iE HOLLTDAY, a luitive of .Scotland, now residing in New We.stuiinster and 
 livin<( in liritisli Coluniliia since IH')8, was duly sworn. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. WHmot : 
 
 Q. Wf'H, sir, wo shall lie obliged if you will state concisely what you wish to say ? A. 
 Well, gentlemen, I have very little to say except that we, as fishei'nien of liritish Colum- 
 bia, would like to have an even show with the cannei'ymen. They have had the advan- 
 tage since the limit was placeil upon the number of licenses. Some few yeai's ago there 
 were oOO licenses issued. The canners got •?oO and the tishermen got 150 — that is 
 ostensibly they got 1")0, but I beg to <litl'er with that statement about their getting loO 
 • the freezers, the shippers and the markt't-men all had to come out of that, which is 
 something like thirty f)r forty — and the Indians too. they had to come out of it and whom 
 I don't consider legitimate fishermen of the river at all. The Fndians never before took 
 out m<trc than thi'ce or four or five or six licenses, as can be seen from the returns - 
 they came down here and fished for the canneries, and now as soon as ever a limit was 
 put on they crowd in to get these licenses, and as the Indian Agent has just said they 
 get foi'ty, and these forty are almost e(|uivalent to gi\ing forty more licenses to the can- 
 neries, becivuse very few Indians — one in t(;n -have their own boats and nets. The 
 cannei's pay the license fee and the Indian goes an<l fishes for the cannery for whatever 
 they like to pay him -so this is just like giving them to the canneries. If you deduct 
 these we have very few left and the canners then with jjlenty of licenses have connnand 
 of the ri\cr. Now, all wt^ want is to take the monoj)oly from the canners and give us a 
 fail' shake with them and so we can get fair prices for our tish. Last year we got fair 
 prices because we had some little troul)le with them. This thing about licenses — there 
 has never been any trouble until the limit was put on. There is a great number of men 
 here who used to tish for the canneries. They all want liccuses now since the limit has 
 been jiut on. Our great trouble is with th(> canneries and we have complained because 
 they can close us down at any time. 
 
 Q. Then your \'iew of the matter is that these forty lii'enses, stated as lieing (tbtained 
 1)V Indians, are really th(> pro[)erty of the canneries.' -A. Almost wholly the property of 
 the canners because they are the men who go to the office and pay for these men's 
 licenses, and of course you know when they ])ay for the license they will see that terms 
 art^ mad(> to get the money back. 
 
 t^). Then the canneries have coiii|)lete control .' —A. ( )f course : people have to tish 
 for the canneries, there is no doul)t of it the canners give tiiem the best they can, but 
 the canners every year meet and ha\e an umlerstandiiig, and tiiey bind theinsehes not 
 to give o^■er a certain price for the tisii, and of cunisetliey lia\e command of the ri\er, 
 seeing they liaxc almost all the licenst s, as you can see by taking seventy from the 
 whole number. On my license last ye;ir there was a n(»ti<-e that no more than oOO 
 would be issued nnw, there were ninre issued. 
 
 C^. To whom .' A. To these new canneries. Not oih! put up a can but they got 
 licenses. This all hurts the Hshermen and the v,\vv. 
 
 Q. Then it is an actual fact that the new ciiiineries did not perform work in them ? 
 — A. Well. I cannot s;iy from my own knowledge, but I mncr heard i>f one putting 
 up one can. They may ha\e done, it is more than I ever hciird of ; in fact I have 
 always understood they were not in working condition. 
 
 By Mr. ArmstroiKj : 
 
 Q. What you heard is no evidence? A. \\'(dl, of my own knowledgt- 1 know 
 that if tlit>v had been working I would liaxc knuwn it. 
 
 Jiij Mr. Wiimot : 
 
 Q Why do you say an Indian should not base a license .' ,\.. I do not say he 
 should not have a license, but if he cannot pay for it it is e(|ui\aleiit to giving it 
 to the canneries. 
 
BRITISir COLUiMlJIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 49 
 
 Q. But if it is jiiven to all ? A. Oli, well, if to all why give to the Indian ttxj ; 
 hi' has as much right. 
 
 Q. How about transient men ? A. Well, 1 understood the limil was put onto 
 keep this floating population away. 
 
 Q. But some do get licenses, don't they l — A. No : T don't think so. I only know 
 uf one ■■■ . he could hardly be called that he used to li\e here- he is gone Jiway. 
 
 Q. liut one of the chief complaints is that (ireeks and Italians, and other 
 foreigners get licenses ? A. Well, I have not heard of it. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. But, would not these Indians be liable to sell theii' licenses to the canneries?— 
 .v. Well, I don't see it in that way ; a man cannot sell a thing that he has not. 
 The tannerymen go and pay for them ; it is done thiough the oftice. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Do they get them in the names of certain men, or in their names ? A. In 
 liKiian names, and the cannei's hold the licenses. 
 
 Q. Then you thiidc it a fi-audulent transaction to get licenses in another's name? — 
 ,\. Certainly ; there is fraud in it, but the Indian is interested in it and has got to 
 tish. 
 
 /iy }fr. ArnixtroiKj : 
 
 Q. Do you think every British subject ought to have a license wln) ajiplies for it 1 
 A. No ; 1 don't think so. 
 
 By Mr. Wi/mof : 
 
 Q. Why 1 — A. Because there would not be room on the rixei-. 
 
 Q. Well, but would not those who found it unprofitable step out? — A. Tiue : but 
 one has to make gear, &c. 
 
 (}. How would you limit the matter? A. Put the licenses high on outsiders : $")0 
 or 8100, and then they will not come in. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the offal that is put in the river?- A. i believe^ offal has 
 more oi' less evil ettects on the river. It contaminates the water, anil keeps fish more or 
 less from C(miinguj) the rivei'. \ know that even the most voracious fish the dog-fish — 
 if you come to juit tliat on the fishing grounds you will drive your tish away. Salmon 
 are a much more delicate fish, and lives in fresh water on suction, and it must find this 
 offiil bad ; still at the same time it may help the salmon. It collects the small fish in 
 great numbers, chub, perch. &c. 'I hey collect in gi-eat numbers at the shoots where the 
 otl'al comes in, and the Chinamen ai'e able to catch them in great numbers. Kveryone 
 knows that this ott'al fish is bad for the salmon ova on the spawning beds, and if great 
 numbers of the.se are dt sti'oyed it must help the spawning of the salmon. 
 
 Q. Ai"e the young tish that eat up this offal accustomed to go up on the spawning 
 hods ; do you think this customary ? A. I think they do go up to the spawning beds ; 
 it is not so fai' to the Harrison Biver, which is a great spawning bed. 
 
 (^. What size Jii'e these small tish .' A. Two or three inches u]j to twehc or 
 fourteen. 
 
 Q. What effect, from a sanitary jioint of view, do you think the ofl'al has ? - A, I 
 think it is bad in sunnner time when large (piantities are in the river. 
 
 (^). Hax'e you had any (experience of the bad effects of offal getting into nets at the 
 iiiouth of the rivei- .' .\. No. 
 
 (}. ' •> you think it is injurious to fish entering at the mouth of the river .'A. 
 No : I don't know. 
 
 Q. But voracious fish like dog-fish, pike, itc, would eat it largely, but salmon, yon 
 think, it would affect?- A. Yes : [ think so. They are more delicate altogether. 
 
 Q. Are you aware .salmon invariably enter rivers with purer water than other fish 
 -A. Well, .so far as mv experience goes in regard to fish, we alwavs consider the 
 
 lOc— 4 
 
50 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 salnum pome hack to its own livpis, so much so, that in Scothiiul we can tell to which 
 liver the salmon belonged. These iish when in the wrong liver turn and go out 
 again. 
 
 <i). Tiien the inference to be drawn from your statement is that if the Kraser 
 Kiver is polluted with too much ofl'al it will prevent tish to a certain extent from 
 coming in the river?--A. 1 hav(> thought so, but there are such large (juantities of Hsli 
 coming in one cannot tell. In latter years there has been a run of sockeyes coming in 
 after what is called the sockeye run is over — between the spring salmon run and the 
 cohoes. You can t(^ll the iish- they should have been on the spaw ning gi'f)unds from their 
 appearance. Twelve or thirteen years ago I do not remend)er catching any ttf these tish, 
 now we do. 
 
 (}. AVhat do you think of tlie close season ? — A. T think it t|uite necessary, so far as 
 the weekly close time goes. 
 
 (^>. ^^'hat do you think of an annual do.se .sea.son ? — A. T dont think it at all neces- 
 sary on this river, because fish are going uj) ])retty nearly the whole year, and as long as 
 they are going up you ai'e not interfering with the s])awning gi'ounds whate\'ei'. 
 
 Q. AVliat depth of net do you Iish with? — A. .Sometimes forty, tifty, and sixty 
 meshes, according to the places wheie T am fishing. 
 
 Q. Do you tish at the mouth of the river? — A. Largely, but I tish all ovea*. 
 
 (}. ^\ hy at the mouth of the river? — A. Because tish come there tirst and ha\e all 
 to [lass me before they get up to any other persons — that would be (|uite an object. 
 
 (,>. Do you think too much tishing at the mouth of the rivei- would have a tendency 
 to scatter the tish? A. It might, but there are so many little sloughs when the tide 
 comes in, that jjlenty can get up. 
 
 Q. lUit if all were tilled with nets ?-- A. But they can't do that — they are full of 
 snags and you could not put the nets there — stationary nets might do it, but we are not 
 allowed theii' use. 
 
 J)i/ Mr. IH'jiji '••<• .■ 
 
 Q. You think to a certain extent offal is injurious to fish? — A. Well, 1 don't know 
 - in some ways it helps them and in some ways it is injurious. 
 
 Q. In what way does it help them ? — A. Because it gives a chance for Chinamen to 
 destroy a lot of tlie.se little fish that otherwise would do harm to the spawning beds. 
 
 (i>. Now, if this oH'al is injurious to the tish by contaminating the water, iVrc, what 
 are we to say of the dead and dying fish that come down in such large numbers 1 — A. 
 Oh, well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been up the river? — A. Well, Mr. Miggins, I have been up and 
 down since ISoS. I have seen lots of dead fish at Yale but never .so many as they talk 
 about, exeept the humpbacks in October. 1 have seen them gf>ing up to spawn .so thick 
 that you would ri'ally think you could walk across on their backs they were wedged 
 in so thick. In the struggle to get up and in their more (U- less exhausted condition of 
 course many died, but this thing of all the fish dying that go uji the rivtr before they 
 sj)awn is all r(»t. 
 
 (.^. Did you know the late Inspector of Fisherie.s, Mr. Thomas Mowat ? — A. Yes, 
 1 knew him. 
 
 Q. Well, if Mr. Mowat statcnl twenty-five per cent of the fisli lived to get back, or 
 if he said only five per cent liveil to get back, woukl it be correct? - A. No, sir, I don't 
 believe him. I have been fishing longer than Mr. Mowat. 1 am a practical man and I 
 don't believe it. 
 
 (Mr. Higgins then read extracts from a letter from Mr. .Mowat to .Judge Swan, in 
 which ]Mr. Mowat stated his belief that not more than twenty-five per cent of the tish 
 entering the river for spawning purjio.ses and which were allowed to .spawn, lived to get 
 back U> sea.) 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Ha\e you ever seen many tish here floating down tlH> rivv'r dead ? A. Oh, in 
 fishing you will often get- a numlier, that is towards the ' itter part of the run you will 
 
BRI'i SII COLUMIUA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 51 
 
 What 
 often 
 
 :;et 0(1(1 ones, but very few sockeyps. There is ii Ksh eoniiii<,' in — the "dog-siilnion or 
 ijuallah" — at first it is very briji;ht but after a whih^ it gets covered with fungus and 
 look as if they were rotten. Tlies(i and the humpbacks are worse-looking coming down 
 the liver. They get in the back of the net and wiien you pull it in you think the fish 
 aiv dead, but they are alive though looking rotten. Sockeycs though seldom g<i back 
 unless wounded or hurt. 
 
 i}. I»ut have you ever seen good, .sound salmon in .lune, July, or August floating 
 down (l(!ad / -A. I have seen an odd o/ie that has dropped out of the net a heavy one 
 will occasionally drop out of the net. 
 
 (.}. Jiut you have never seen any numbers of salmon floating down the river dead ? - 
 A. 1 liave seen dead ones once in a while. 
 
 t^. Ifave you known any (juantity of salmon b(*ing thrown away / — A. Not in later 
 vears ; in former years a great number were thi'own away, but n>*t lately. Four years 
 ago there was a very large run of fish. They got too many on hand and they asked us 
 tu stop for a day or two, and we stopped to give them a chance to clear uj) the 
 caniK'ty, cScc. 
 
 ^l Then you say they threw away fish some years ago, but not now ? A. Yes, but 
 not now. 
 
 (). What about the spring salmon — they are white and red, are they not .' 
 is done with the white? A. They are generally given away to the Indians. W( 
 salt them and sell them for what we can get. 
 
 By Mr. Hi<j(jins : 
 
 Q. You know the steel-head ? — A. Yes, what we call the salmon trout. 
 
 Q, Are they very destructive? — A. I con.sider them a salmon and one of the salmon 
 family, only just a different species. They are a superior fish and some esteem tluMU the 
 Hiicst tish that came into this river. The canners don't care about using them for the 
 simi>le reason that the bone of the steel-head is harder than others and recpiires more 
 boiling and therefore cannot be put up with other fish. 
 
 Q. Are trout injurious to spawn? — A. Yes, I know trout are. 
 
 (}. Then should the trout be cleaned out ? — A. Well, as far as s.almon are concerned, 
 but 1 dont think the anglers would like that. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(a\s. Never mind the anglers; we are here to look after the fishermen. 
 
 % 3fr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do you think trout destroy spawn by eating it? -A. No ; I think not : I don't 
 iliiiik th(!y eat it. 
 
 Q. The humpback saluu)n~--they are caught along with the last run of .sockeye.s, are 
 tlicy not ? — A. Well, they come in after the sockeyes -in b(^tween them and the cohoes. 
 
 Q. When humi)backs are caught along with .sockeyes what are done with the 
 liuiiipl)acks f A. Oh, they are thrown away you cannot do anything with them. 
 
 "'•i- Are they numerous? — A. Well, some years they are. I don't know whether 
 liicy are of the same salmon family the male is not at all like the salmon, though the 
 tViiiale is. The nuile has a great hump and the scales are ditf'erent, being as tine as any 
 trout scales. 
 
 Q. Do you know that salmon undergo great changes in the river to what they are 
 ill the sea ! A. Yes ; but the.se fish are very changed, there is but little difference. 
 
 Q. Then the hum})backs are sacrificjed for a few sockeyes? — A. Yes ; for .sockey(^s 
 and cohoes. Tlu^y come in differently from the salmon they comi' in e\ery thiid year, 
 111 it cM'i'y fourth year like the sock(!ye. Then they come in so strong you are glad to 
 ^'I't lid of them in the best way you can, for they destroy your nets. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. - (Jentlemen, 1 maysay that \ ask these ((uestionsfor knowledge, asTam 
 Hot aware of th<^ habits of these fish, audit has been re])reseiited to the (lej)artnu'nt that 
 ui'cat numbers of these fish are thrown away because they are not used for canning jiur- 
 I'Dses, and I desire to find out for the depaitment all the infoi'mation we can gather in 
 "iruicction with the sources of fish food in liritish Columbia rivers. 
 
 Mr. HuioiNS and Mr. Akmstkonc. — Certainly, Mr. Wilmot, certainly. 
 
62 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Hoi.i.iDAY. About the humpback, it is not that they are thrown away siniplv 
 because caimers will not use them theyare of no use to any one else,except the Imlians. 
 They prefer them to anyother of the salmon fishes, but the white people won't have them. 
 
 liy Mr. Wilmut : 
 
 Q. Are you of the opinion that young salmon would be at all engaj^ed in eating up 
 oftal under the canneries? — A, T never saw any of them. T have seen them haul up these 
 little fish and pile them up by the bucketful, but I never saw any young .salmon amoiiif 
 them. 
 
 Q. Well, now, sir, have you anything further you desire to .state? — A. No; I think 
 not. I think I have touched on all the points of importance in the industry. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. V^ery well, thank you, sir, that will do. 
 
 il \\ 
 
 
 H 
 
 J). H. PORT, a native of Ontario, a resident of New Westminster for five years, 
 and a fish-dealer, was duly .'■worn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Port, we will be pleased to hear what you have to say. — A. Well, I 
 have not prej)ared anything jiarticular to say, but if you have any cpiestions to ask nic 
 on any matters, I would prefer it that way and I will state my views as I go along. 
 
 Q. Very well, sir. Now, what are your views as to the disposal and effects of the offal 
 in the river? — A. As affecting the fish business, I don't think it is detrimental to the 
 river. The river is very cold and pretty swift, and the offal is carried down to sea. 
 
 Q. You are from Ontario, are you not ? -A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the river colder thati rivers in Ontario? — A. Yes, nuich colder. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the tempei'ature of rivers in Nova Scotia and New 
 Biunswick? — A. Xo, not any great knowledge, but T think it colder than eastern rivers, 
 except some mountain streams. 
 
 Q. Can you say anything in regard to the comforts and convenience of the inhabi- 
 tants that is, in connection with this oftal ? — A. Well, I cant say much on that sub 
 ject ; I have not oKserved it fi-oin that point of view, l)ut I don't think it would affect 
 any one. 
 
 Q. Have you fished at the mouth of the river? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen oftal there in the nets ?---A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is then, you think, non ^ijurious as far as fish are concerned ?- A. Not as far 
 as fish are concerned. I don't know anything about it from a sanitary point of view. 
 
 Q. What is your view of the limitation of nets? Should there be a limitation to 
 cannei's or to fishermen? A. I can simply give my opinion. I think that the protec- 
 tion of certain men or canners by limiting the privileges of the river to them is unwise. 
 I think if the industry will not pay a man to work, either as aftsherman or in a cannery, 
 no one will woik i. it long. 
 
 Q. Then you think the licen.se system should be thrown open to all ? — A. Well, no, 
 not to all, but to all residents and British subjects, with the judicious supervision of the 
 in.spector. 
 
 Q. Would you say that individual fishermen fishing with one l)oat should get a 
 license, or would you give the j)rivilege to all to get as many licenses as they liked ?-- 
 A. Well, I think if the canneiies have the privilege of putting out as many boats as 
 they like, the ftshermen shouhi have the same privilege. 
 
 Q. Jiut has capital no special privilege ? — A. Oh well, a cannery would not .spend 
 anything moi'e than they can make pi'ofits (jut of' any more than the markets woulii 
 what they could afford. 
 
 Q, Hut if the canneries had 100 licenses each, could they not get all the fish they 
 wanted ? — A. \>s, but they would have to employ labour to get them. 
 
 C^. But would they not be in a position to control the whole fisheries of the river? 
 A. Oh, I don't think so — they have never done that in the past — before the limit was 
 put on the caunerymen had the same rights the thing would find its own level. 
 
HBITI8H COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 53 
 
 Q. Then do you think one license sliould f;o to the canner i", 1 one to each tisher- 
 iiiiin? — A. No, T think it should be this wiiy : every fisherman and liritish subject, 
 iiiitl every canneryinan should be able to f^etasniany licenses as they wish. If Hsheruien 
 iiic i'nteii)risin«,' and can atlord to run two or three ri^'s, why, let them. 
 
 Q. Hut would not a'l combined be too much for the river to stand ? - A. Well, the 
 (Government could look after that the remedy would be the clo.se time. 
 
 (.^. That is just what this Connnission is for. We want to get the amount of fishing 
 on the river that is safe for the fishery 'i — A. Well, everyone wants t(j get licenses, but 
 tills is owing to the limit put upon them ;,they have, in consequence, a fictitious value 
 fiiul everyone naturally wants to get one. \ was here in 87-'!S8 and then everybody 
 will) wanted a license could get one. 
 
 i}. Is the principle not in vogue here that a canneryman gets out his own supplies 
 of licenses, say twenty, and then sends in names of Indians and others and u.ses them for 
 the cannery? -A. VVell, I suppose they do advance money to a good many fishermen. 
 
 il. Then there is a sort of barter' or .sale of licenses after they are issued ? — A. Yes, 
 there is. 
 
 (}. Do you think it is wise to have a Sunday close season ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think it sufKcient as it is now ? — A. T think it sufiicient as at present, 
 under existing circumstances — if the boats were double the close season would have to 
 l)c enlarged. 
 
 t^. Then too excessive fi.shing would injure the river f A. Yes; I think too much 
 would hurt it. I think this : the amount of salmon actually caught by boats in this 
 river and used, as far as we can find out fi'on) the fisheiy oftice returns, is very, very 
 small in comparison with the numbers that go up the river. 
 
 t^. What record have you of those that go up the river? — A. Only oui- observation. 
 
 Q. Hut no facts ? -A. No; I suppose a couple of millions of salmon would cover 
 every tiling that is caught, even in a year like 1889, and yet that must be but a part of 
 tiiose that go on up. 
 
 Q. How do you know ? A. T s[)eak of ol)servation in tlie mattei'. In '89 1 was up 
 tile river at the last station on the river — and I know salmon were so thick theie that 
 tiie few tiiat were taken out was simply nothing. 
 
 Q. What do you think of an annual clo.se season ? — A. I don't think it would 
 a])})iy here, as we are never allowed to fish on the spawning beds. 
 
 (,>. Neither are they anywhere el.se ? - A. Well, what I mean is the salmon oidy run 
 in certain times — the.sockeye in July and August, and the weekly close time I consider 
 at present sufticient, and after the end of August the run is pi'etty well over and the 
 canneries filled, or if not filled they have done woik. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Do you think the fii'st I'un coming up should be bred ? Do you believe in arti- 
 ficial l)reeding? — A. Ye.s, I do; but I don't know if it makes much difference which kind 
 you l)reed. 
 
 {.}. Do you think the hatchery has been of any benefit to the river 1- A. Well, I 
 cannot .say clearly on the subject; however, I think that enough has been pi'oven in favour 
 of tlie liatchery to warrant the continuance and perhaps even the extension of the 
 work, but T have not been here as long yet as others to see. 
 
 Q. Do you fish yourself or employ otliers?— A. T employ others. 
 
 (.}. How many licenses had you last year ? — A. Ten. 
 
 (.1 What as ?— A. A freezer. 
 
 (}. The fish that are caught for you are f lozen ? -A. Frozen or shipped in ice. 
 
 ii. The whole fish goes away then does it not .' — A. Yes ; they go away whole. 
 
 Q. You have no oH'al, then ? —A. No, sir, none at all. 
 
 i). In the canning business a large proportion of the fish is thrown away; with 
 tlie freezing process that is not the case? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the freezing business growing or decrea.sing ? ~A. It is increasing, though it 
 liiis been difHcult this last year to do our work. 
 
 Q. Do you ship spring or sockeye salmon? — A. Spring salmon. 
 
54 
 
 MARINE ANO FISHERIES. 
 
 i}. What do you do with \vhit«' sidmoii ? A. Well, they lire of little vahie we sell 
 them. 
 
 Q What are done witli tlie white ones caujfht in the net? A. There is no discii 
 inination. 
 
 C^. How (k> you tell Ix'fore hi inj^in;; thesahiionin I — A. The dirt'eivnce cannot very 
 well 1)(! told without futtin<j; them to see -thouj^di some fishermen can tell. 
 
 Q. Wl'.at is your o[)inion as to what is done with wiiite salmon caufiht in the ma 
 and known to lie white? Well, \(>ry few are thrown away- not lU pel' cent of whiii' 
 arc; caught. W'i' have found out durinj^ the last few years that so many white salmmi 
 come up in the fall that wd don't tish tin; run. If eii'cumstances weie such as we could 
 get white salmon in com[)etition with codfish, oi'otherehea]i lisli, we might do something.', 
 but the cari'iage is so gi'eat we cannot compete with the low grades of tish. 
 
 Q. Then your business does not huit the liver with any offal? -A. No, sii'. 
 
 (}. You are not engaged in tlie canniiig business ? A. Xo ; entirely in thefree/inLt 
 line. I have l)een listening to the discussion to-day and two or three times it has touched 
 u])on the tish dying after going up the river, and I would like to say a word upon that. 
 In Mr. Mowats lettei' I tiiink you stated that he contented that salmon going to the 
 Selkii'k ^bluntains do not return. I must bear him out in that. f don't think that it) 
 per cent or IT) per cent eome back from thrtse high waters. The fish that do not go su 
 far I think I'etui'n in greatei' nundters. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. As evidence oui' overseers have marked tish which ha\e been found 
 next year. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrom/ : 
 
 Q. Do you consume all the fish you catch with ten boats? — A. Tn most cases 1 did 
 mainly — for a week or two during the height of the sockeye run it would b-jimpossiiilc 
 to consume them all. 
 
 <.^. What do you do with them .' -A. We use all we can and then lay uj) our l)o!(l- 
 if the (juantity brought in is too great. 
 
 Bij Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 i^. What might you get per pountl for the salmon ycai send east to Toionto ? — A. 
 It runsfi'om lli cents up to 30 cents. 
 
 Q. Then an eight pound tish would be 90 cents. Now, if that same fish were canned 
 it would be worth about 40 or oO cents, would it not ! Xow, it a[)j)ears the freezer not 
 oidy makes no ofj'al but gets a better price for the wlK)le tish. \\'ell, Mr. Port, have ymi 
 anything further to tell us? A. No, I think not just now. 
 
 1! a. 
 
 I 
 
 ( 
 
 JOHN BUTE, a resident of New Westminster, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Tt has been stated, Mr. Buie,thatyou can give .some information upon thequestinn- 
 under consiileration here. Are you prepared to give us it — if not, jierhaps you would 
 prefer l)eing questioned ? — A. Well, it might bt; better to ask me the questions. 
 
 By Mr. Hujgins : 
 Q. Y(m were formerly fishery guardian, were you not ? A. Yes, for a number 
 
 lit 
 
 years. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What ai'e youi' views as to the throwing in of the oti'al, Mr. lUiie ? A. Well, 
 really my views did not coincide with Mr. Mowat's. My own views are that it is almost 
 impossible that it can be detrimental to tish. As a nuisance to the inhabitants, tli;it 
 is another inattei', but T do not think it is hurtful to fish. Last night I was here and 
 heard some stating that it was detrimental to fish, and I made a little calculation. 
 
UaiTISII CdLUMlHA FISHERY (.'uMMIHSION. 
 
 55 
 
 Kuiiwiii;^ tilt" .niKtimt of wati-r Mul ^^ocs duwri tlic river, I consider tliat tlic otVal would 
 nut 1)1' oiu'-lialt' an ounce to a tank full of watci' the si/c of this room (the t'oininission 
 wiis sitting' in a lar^^f room), and that jiurc rimniiij; water that docs not i^o alioNc "»() 
 (1cl;i'ci's in the sumiMcr time opposite this I'ity. 
 
 (^>. I su])|)ose you are aware that a drop of prussic acid, if |)Ut in a l)ucket of water 
 uiiidd have a liad ellect ? .A. Ves ; hut I still tiiink that that wouhl le even a l)ii.'i,'ei- 
 piuport ion than the otl'al in the river. It has a widtii of over '.100 yards ;mdo\er a 
 (irpth of -0 feet and Mows at the rate of tour miles an hour. 
 
 (^). Then all the fish that die u|) the rivers would not atlectit either ! A. it niiifht 
 iitlect it if on the spawninjf beds, l)Ut f cannot imaj,'in(^ how it tan aH(;ct tish life in the 
 river helow here. 
 
 Q. I>ut it mijfht he injm'ious fi'om a sanitary point of view -for instance, \\ here 
 iill'al lodjjes / A. That is my cnnciusion. 
 
 Q. Have you known of its ellects upon nets at tiie mouth of the river.' .\. I 
 never heard of comi)laints till last ni;;ht. It is possible it niij,'ht so atlect the nets, hut 
 I ne\ei' lieai'd of it. 
 
 (). What do you thiid< of the limitation of licenses on the I'raser Hiver .' A. Well, 
 when I was on the river for ahout a year I. thouj^ht then tiie rivci was liai)le to We o\-er- 
 tislicd, hut the more I saw of tishini; and the manner and way il was coiulucted, and the 
 more I ix'came ac(|uainte(l with the I'^raser, I thoui,'ht the (lan;,'er was less than I had 
 iiiia.t,'ined. 
 
 <). Why did you chan,i,'e your mind on that (juestion ? A. iiecause I used to tliiid< 
 the nets would draj,' nearer the Ixittom, hut after T saw nu'ii tishini; I saw it was impossible 
 to jncM'ut the salmon coming in at the mouth of the rixcr, no matter how many boats 
 tliey l>nt on. I'lach boat that undertakes to drift but wants a clear way and you cannot 
 ]nit them beyond a certain closeness. 
 
 (}. Then the nets no matter how placed would not picvenl enoujih tisli from reacli- 
 iiiii the spawning,' beds !- A. Well, of course they aiv thinned out they nuist ii". The 
 ([iicstion is, what would be the percentaye of all the (ish that come in that would be 
 t'lmunh for breediuLT }mi'pos(!s. Whatever the decrease may be and however small the 
 run it would be a surprise to the Connnission if they were at Harrison Hiver and see the 
 iiumi)ers cominji' to spjiwn. Tlie little lake looks also as if simjily I'overed and the tish 
 M'cm innumerable. 
 
 <i>. Then you think the present amount of tishini,' by nets anywhere on the livcr is 
 nut severc^ly detrimental, l)ut to an o.xtent it is detrimental? — A. Xo : f would not say 
 that I think it ncjt at all detrinmntal. 
 
 (}. Well, you say scarcely enouirh ,yo up to breed.' A. \o, 1 don't .say that. 
 
 (}. Would you consider it detrimental if as numy a^ain of liccn.ses were issiiuit on 
 the river ? A Well, I tiiink the number of license.s issued does not control the amount 
 of tish at all. Now, out on the sand heads they are just as thick as t^U'y can be when 
 the tish are coming in, and l)efore hi.iih water tht? tish are lM)und to come in liefor<', 
 they cannot get through un aceountof the nets, but once they get in the river, they are 
 in the channels toodeejt for the nets to catch them. 
 
 (^. Would it be detrimental if l.l'OO licenses were i.ssued — sayther(Mire OOO now .' 
 A. \\'ell, ^Mr. Wilmot. you don't uiulerstand it. If there was I'oom for 1,"_'00 nets they 
 could tish the river just as well as now, and I don't thiid< it would be injurious : it would 
 he simply compelling them to have more boats and nets anil not catching more lish. 
 
 (}. Vou would have no limitation then, either to canners, freezers or lishermen ? - 
 A. I would not say there should be any limitation it is not re(piin>d. Let them have 
 as many licenses as the jx-ople want, both cinners, frec^zers and tishermen. 
 
 (). What do you think of the Sunday close time ? -A. It" there is any doubt of the 
 number of boats overtishing the river, the weekly clo.se time would comjiensate for it. 
 I believe in the Sunday close season, that is even if that nund)er of nets would have an 
 injurious efVect, the Sunday I'lo.sc .season would open the gate for the tish anyway. 
 Perhaps I nuiy make myself plainer by saying that the Sunday close season and also 
 the clo.se .season for .sockeyes as now, would be quite siiHleient for insuring a sutticient 
 number of tish for going up the river. 
 
66 
 
 MARINE AND KrsiIKRIRS. 
 
 (^. VVi'll, tlicii, li(»w about ail annual ilosc sea,s(»ii / A. Well, the Hsji in paHsiiij; 
 up in the saiiK' day ;,'Pt li:'v<)n(l the fisliini,' limit hfton' spawninj,'. Tiici*' is a close 
 season for sockfyfsalinoii now and wliirh 1 tliiiik is a scry jjood tliin;^ in |irot»'('tinj,' 
 the last run of sockeycs that coiiie in. We had in one year, fr«»m the jr»th Auj(ust to 
 loth Srptcinher, or all of Septeinher. These were instructions from the departmenl, 
 and it was stipulated in the licenses for some years. 
 
 Cj. You are ac(|uaiiited with the description of nets used, are you not, .Mr. Huie? - 
 .\. Yes : I know theiii, 
 
 ii, Five and a half inches extension -that is the law, is it not f A. Yes; that is 
 the law. It is the hest mesh for cati'hinj^ the soekeye, and it would not he protitahle to 
 use a less size salmon would not 1^111. 
 
 (}. Would it lie injurious to use a smaller net / .\. Well, I don't know that the 
 injury would amount to much, liecause the salmon do not ctiiiie here as ;,'rilse. When 
 the sockeye come here they arefull-f,'rown and matured, and tliouj,di sometimes of smaller 
 size foi instance, in the year of a hij^ run twehe or thirteen tish ar<; ro(|uired to make 
 a ease of canned salmon, where ten would do in an oH' year, and even if tlie mesh was 
 reduced, nothinj^ would he cau;<lit except matured tish. 
 
 Q. So you think oj,' inch the ri<,dit mesh for catchinj; sockeyes ? -A. Yes, 
 
 C^. Have you a knowled<,'e of the two modes of lishin;; jiill-nets and seines ? A. 
 Seines are used in salt water: they an; not used on the rivers at all. 
 
 C^. Would it he just for a net three and a half inches in mesh to he fished in salt 
 water while five and three-(|uiirters is used in the ri\ers? .\. Well. I don't think it 
 would, proi)alily on account of other tish. 
 
 Q. You think five and three-(|uarters would catch youni,' tish .' .\. No ; I don't 
 think that. 
 
 ii. Why? A. r>ecause my impression is that the yoliiif,' salmon do not return here 
 in any quantities. 
 
 Q. Do you think a seine would catch a greater numher of tish than a gill-net ?- 
 A. Well, a gill-net would not catch tish where a seim^ would. The gill net is used on 
 rivers for drifting, and seines in salt water ; they are not used on the Fraser River. 
 
 i}. In your experience as a tisheiy otticer do you think the fishing limit in the 
 river should he shortened. It now runs up to Pitt River liridge. and to North Ham- 
 mond, on the main river? — A. Oh, I don't think it would he necessary to shorten it. 
 
 y. Well, at the mouth, do you think it should l)e shortened where all the boats 
 are ? — A. Oh, I don't know, fish play at the mouth of the river. 
 
 Q. ])o you think it a very destructive j)lace ? — A. There is no doubt a great many 
 are caught there. 
 
 Q. And thus prevent fish from getting uj) the river ?- A. Oh, y<'s : especially 
 when fish are scarce. I have known them to have all the boats fishing, even up to 
 " Bon Accord, ' and each boat to catch 400 or 500 fish. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Jiuie, if you have nothing further to tell us now, I think we have 
 touched on ino.st all the points ? -A. Y'^es ; no, I have nothing.furtlier ju.st now. 
 
 Mr. Hl(;<ilNS. — I want to ask Inspector McNab about persons who get licenses 
 other than JJritisli subjects. Can you give us any information about these parties, 3Ir. 
 McNab ? 
 
 Mr. McN.\n.--r do not know of any but those who hold licen.ses as British 
 subjects. There is one man who has got licenses for a number of years back. I was 
 given to understand last year after he got his license that he had moved away and was 
 a resident of Washington Territory, in the iMiited States. 
 
 By Mr. Hhjgins ; 
 
 Q. Is his name down for a license this year?— A. No. 
 
 ii. That is the only one you know ? — A. That is the only one I know of. 
 
 Q. Can you point out on your books any men getting licenses who are not fisher- 
 men — men who get licenses year after year? — A. Well, there is R. I>. Kelly. 
 
 Mr. Akmstkon*;.- -F have known Mr. Kelly for a numlier of years. He is a 
 re.sident of Westminster Junction. T know him very well. 
 
muTisir COMIMHIA kisiieky <'i»MMt.ssii»v. 
 
 6T 
 
 Mr. MrNAH. — Mr. Kflly Ims \wU\ u licciist iiuw t'nr tin 
 
 vv vt'iir^. -uiic iimi.sf I'fiL'li 
 
 M'iir. 
 
 By Mr. Higi/lns : 
 
 (}. Do y< Ml know ot" iiiiy MtliiMs' A. (Jcoi- 
 'II ii tislicriiiiiii t'ni' tilt' Ifist two yciirs. 
 
 |{. 
 
 I)('il> 
 
 ircliM' 
 
 IL'I, ll 
 
 llMl 
 
 A. II.' Iitui 
 
 Ii 
 
 1S!M(. 
 
 I}. Has he takt'ii out a license every year .' .\. lie hail no iieeiiM" in 
 
 (.^. What does lie do ? A. lie is a warden in the |peiiitent iary. 
 
 (}. Have yon ever reeeixcd any instructions ;ilioiit i>siiiii^ licenses .' A. Last year 
 iheie were nine licenses in the otlice when I took it o\t'r, and all had lii'cn applied tor in 
 March. 
 
 Q. Are they transferal )le .' A. This year the licenses are marked ••not transt'er 
 ;il)lc." In previous years they were tra ist'erred. 
 
 Q. Have you the Ixiok of licenses for last year with yon. Mr. .McNaii .' .\. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you inijiht hriiiL; it here and let lis i^o (»\er the names with yon, perhap^- 
 (ithcr cases ini^^lit occur to you ! A. \'ery well, sir. 
 
 Mr. McN'ab then went over the list of last year's licenses, reading; out tin names of 
 outsiders with whom he was not accjuainted, and who in all cases e.xcept H. .>Iorrison, 
 uf N'ancouver, were recognized and speciHed as tishermen hy persons present in the 
 ripoiii. Mr. Morrison was statetl to he a saloon-keeper. 
 
 Mr. Hl(i<il\s. A'ery well, that will do, Mr. .McN'ali. thank yon. 
 
 Briti.sh 
 
 r was 
 
 ind was 
 
 V. F. PHPiTTY, a native of Ontario, a resident of New Westminster for two years, 
 ,1 freezer and exporter of tish, was then duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. We will lie ;f|ad to hear any remarks you may wish to make, Mr. Pretty. 
 A. My iiiain object in heinjr hei'o was to mention my views of the licen.se system 
 and to tell you what • think woidd he jireferahle to tishermen and canneis. and 
 all interested therein, and also henelicial to the fisheries in general. It is as much to 
 our ohjec.'t as any person. Firstly, my idea is to ^nc licenses to e\ery lnoid fi</f fisher- 
 man without limit, prijvided he is a IJritish sul)ject. That all canners, freezers, salters, 
 exporters, and su(;h, should have a number of licenses limited to them and that that 
 limit b(^ considered in accordaiuie with the(|uantity of fish they are capable of handlini;'. 
 
 C^. Yes ; but to limit tiie number of licenses to each of these l)usiness pj-rsons in ac- 
 cordance with the capacity of their establishment? -A. Exactly; a fair limit in that 
 way would be to jjive them say a cannery commands thirty licenses well, I think 
 they should have ten -that would be one-third, and they would be obliifed to purclia.se 
 two-thirds of their tish, which would give the tisheriiien a fair show. In the case of 
 ii'iving canners all the licenses they wanted, they would not have to buy from the fisher- 
 iiK'ii at all. T would not limit tlie outside licenses to tishermen any British subject 
 should have a liceii.se who applies for it. 
 
 Q. You think that would ecjualize the business ? A. Yes ; I do. Twenty licenses, 
 with their own in a good year counting two good years in four - would give them all 
 the tish they wanted. 
 
 Q. How do you think that would affect the present canners and your.selves ? -A. 
 Well, I would be in the same position as the canners. With tlu- freezer T have at 
 present erected, 1 can handle (10,000 salmon yearly, and of course, 1 have to depend 
 upon outside tishermen as well as the canners, and it would simply put us on the .same 
 tooting, whereas, if we had all W(^ want, we would hire Chinamen and others at less 
 wage.s, and so monopolize the trade. IJut 1 think the tishernieii should give us two- 
 thirds of our tish. T don't want to monopolize the trade, and our tishermen slioul<l get 
 a fair chance. 
 
 Q. In your estimation then, the trade hitherto ha.s been a monopoly .'-A. To a 
 certain extent. If you givt; a large number of licenses to canners and other establish- 
 ments, they will certainly take but little from the tishermen, if any. As to their own 
 boats, of course they should hire who they like to operate their ten boats. 
 
■■■V 
 
 58 
 
 MARINE AND FISIIEIIIKS. 
 
 )ii'. flli:<:iNs. Do yoii clruii yniu' Hsli hct'orc you send tlicui oil .' A. No, sir : we 
 .send tlic wliiik- tisli. 
 
 i! '!, 
 
 'J 
 
 lit 
 
 1''' 
 
 /!>/ Mr. Wihnnt : 
 
 <(>. W'liat kind do yuii send.' A. Tt is my intentinn to use ;dl kinds, 
 
 <J. W'iieic lire your niai-kets .'- A. Aiistridia and lOn^kmd are tiie markets I intend 
 openinjj; uji. 
 
 t^. Have you sent any to Austi'alia .' \. Not yet. I liope to this year. T liave 
 just erected my estaliiishment iiere. 
 
 <^l. Wiiere were you in liusiness i)et'ore .' A. < >n the (Ireat Lakes, in tlie whitetisii 
 and sahnon trout track'. 
 
 (j). And how tar in your ojicrations tliere hasc you sent the frozen tisii .' .\. We 
 have not sent thnn \cry tar as yet : l)ut we intend puttiny on retViyerator vessels and 
 sliiji to all j)arts. 
 
 <j*. Then you will opi'ii up a new trade.' -A. 'I hat is our intention, it' |tossil)le. 
 
 (^). What is ilie capacity of youi' estaliiishment i A. 'i'he one just eonijileted wiii 
 hold 1U,()I)() salmon, and tliis will he filled prohahly twice or three times in the yeai' - 
 shipping; them oi]' hy the free/.inu' jirocess. We also intend to huild in N'ancouver, foi' 
 tralKc in the salt watei' tish, and will also take salmon from this river to \'ancou\er 
 that is. from the mouth of the river. 
 
 <^>. Have you heen doin^' this husiness here liefore ? A. I had the licenses I <;ot 
 last year and used them. 
 
 i}. .\nd were the tish you cau.i^ht, frozen '. A. No, sir ; they were sold to the can- 
 ners. I was simply learning' about the rivei' before yoinj,' into the new liusiness. 
 
 <i). How many licenses had you last year .' A. I had two. 
 
 (i>. What numliei' of lish did you obtain fi'om two licenses.' A. 'I'hey avera^;o 
 .'5.rilM) a boat in the sockeye run. 
 
 il Then with ten licenses you will .yet ;i(),()0() to 10,001) tish ? A. Well, it is eal 
 culated this year will be even a poorer year than last year. ( >ui' capacity is 40.000 Hsli. 
 
 (i>. Then ten boats would till ,dur establishment .' .\. ()li. we mi.nht t II it two oi' 
 three times in the season, but it depends. 
 
 Mr. Wii.vioT (to .Mr. .McNab). ! )o you know w heir .Mr. Port ships his tish.' 
 
 .Mr. McNai). — To iOn,nland and (iermany. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT (to .Mr. Pretty). — Have you any other observations to make, say, on 
 the close season I \\ hat do you thiid< of the weekly time ,' 
 
 ^Ir. Pkettv. - I think the time should be from Saturday morniin;' at ii oV'lock- 
 to Monday mornin.<i at (1 o'clock, if the canners wish it. 
 
 <.i>. Put would you object to commencing at I o'clock on .M<inday morniin^' .' A. 
 In that case the tishei-men would start on Sundi.y niyht, but if it was tixed at .\biydav 
 niorninij; they would not commence until then. 
 
 (,|. NN'ell. then, on the same I'easonin.i;', if the time ended at Ii p.m.. Sunday, it 
 would take all the afternoon Sunday to yet ready.' .\. Oh, no; it does not take 
 lony' to fix v.p th'- nets and boats. 
 
 t.^). if the time was made till noon on Saturday wnuld they have to werk on 
 Sunday '. A. No ; i think not. 
 
 (.J. I >o the canners work after ni.yht .' .\. I don t know. 'I'hat is a tjuestion I am 
 not prepared to answei-. 
 
 ^}. No.' ( )h, of course you are not in tiie canniny business. Now, on the (piestion 
 of an annual close time .' A. I ad\(ii'ate no other close time except the Sunday tiuii'. 
 
 (.i>. Tlien would not that mean that at a certain season of the year you would 
 be ]iuttiny; an unwholesome lish upon the market; for, < if course you are aware that 
 at certain seasons of the year all tish when approachinLj the time of ^pawniny lieconie 
 unwholesome as food,' A. No; not at all. we must put yood lish on the market or 
 We lose our t I'ade. 
 
 (.i>. Put Wduld tish be in piod coiulition when in an advanced slate of s]iav\niny! 
 .\. We do not put up any lish but wliat will ncII, and \w have to yo by the market. 
 We don t ^end tht>in fresh at these times, we salt them. 
 
imiTISlI CDLUMIUA KISIIERV COMMISSION. 
 
 69 
 
 (,>. I'Jut tlifii you fire scndinj,' tn tlic iiiarUct niiw hi'lt'soiiic too:! for llir |inl)lic f 
 
 A. Wt^ll, I (lout l<ii(i\v fil)()iit tliat. I wuiilil iKiV aiUdcatt' ;uiy mmiui.iI chtsc scjisuii 
 
 (luriiiji which we cduld not cati-h any tisli. At tlic s|)a\viiiii;;' tinu- tlicy an- Iji'voiul 
 
 till' tishiiij,Miinit ; we cannot tisli for I hem, and T don't sec why t here shoidd !)(• any 
 
 annual close season. 
 
 Q. ^'es ; ot' coui'sc there is, jiei'liaps, a ditl'ei'ence down iieie in a linut liein^ 
 placed upon tiie rivee at certain points. i)ut how are your tisli kept in c<ild storage ! — 
 A. They are t'ro>:ei\ and then kept in cold storai^e. 
 
 (J. Ves : well now, I think we haxc Ljone o\er the matter pr^ttN' well. Is ther'e 
 aii\ t liini;' else yiiu wish to present to ns .' .\. \o. sir; I think not at present. 
 
 I an 
 
 idnji ? 
 arket. 
 
 W. li. \'ih]\N.\, a nati\eot' Holland, a lishernian, and resident of New West- 
 minster and Ih'itish Colundiia for thirty live years, was duly sworn. 
 
 (ientleuH'n, I ha\('l)ut xcry few remarks to make, and 'lieN .'re in re^ai'il to the 
 rottiuiT of the nets in the river. I do not tish down lielow, hut here opposite the town, 
 the same rotting' of the nets ocmirs. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 i). \\'hat is the cause of this rotting of the nets! .\. ( 'atchini;' t he li^h inllu' 
 warm weather, and then some don't use them pro])erly. 
 
 t^). \\'ell, with rei^ard to the ofll'al in the river what is youi' o])inion as to it.s 
 clfects ? A. ( )h, I thiid< the small tish take it and eat it up just as fast asit i'(»iiies down 
 from the canneries trout, chuh, |)erch, sucker.s, and all kinds like that. 
 
 (). Do you think the I'hinamen are heneticial for destroyiiiij; th((S(( tish .' .\. Oh, 
 well, they ne\er come to mv place to catch onlv, hecause tliPV wont buy, and I wont 
 lia\c them around the place. If a Chinaman comes tomv]>lace to catch those small 
 tish. and I know he ncNcr buys aiiythinj;' from me, I don't let him tloany lish iiij. 
 
 tj>. ( )li, I see. not a customei', eh .' .\. No. sir; ("hinamen are ;,.ii nuicii customers 
 anywhere. 
 
 (). l)oyou e\('r i^'cl any otVal rottinu; in \our net .' A. No not uji here. 
 
 <i>. What aliout the innnher of licenses to he uixcn on the riser.' .\. < >h, I think 
 i'>ery person who applies t'ora license should u;et one, that is if he is an actual tishei'uian. 
 
 (}. ^'ou don t think then that hotel keepers or grocers sh mid speculate in ^ettini^ 
 licenses and selliui;' them totishei'men .' .\. No ; he should he an actual lishernian. 
 
 ti>. Ami the one license would lie sullicient ! A. "N'es ; for sliippiiiL;' or selliiiL;', 1 
 think the one license wou' 1 I;.' sutlicient. 
 
 Q. NN hat about iln' Ih! itat ion of licenses to can ners or freezers .' A. Well. I don t 
 iliiiik they want any less than at pres<'n1. 
 
 <i>. Well, bu' would vou ,ui\e them unlimite<l numliers .' .\. No; I would ii\\v. 
 iliem accordiiii;- to the si^eof the cannery if a bii;- one. many; if a small one. few; 
 ^oine canneries are dovilile others. 
 
 <i>. 'I'hen you think evei'y ISritish suiiject and actual tisherman shoulil Lji't licenses, 
 and that the canners should ^tt ihem accordiiii;' to thesi/e of t heir estaitlishments .' — 
 .\. Ves. 
 
 (). I >o you think twenty lici-nscs too many for the canneries at present .' A. No; 
 I don't tJiink it loo many. 
 
 <i'. ^'oii and your brother risherinen woidd not complain .' .V. I think not, sir. 
 
 <i>. What do you think of the Sunday close time .' .\. It is a i;ciod thiny. W'eall 
 want Sunday to ourseKes. : I think it is a very i^ood law. 
 
 i). Do you think there should be any limitation as to pl.ice for tishini; at the 
 mouth of the ii\er do you think it a more danij;erous placed .\. Well, we areilivided 
 on that. Sometimes we cati'h just as many (ish here as at the mouth. .\fter Sunday 
 night, on Monday, wo yc^t more fish up hei'e than anywhei-e, wddch shows that the tish 
 have had a diaiice to get up. 
 
60 
 
 MARINK AND KISHEIirES. 
 
 <.^. Are inoro boats fishing at tiif mouth than Iwre '. A. Yes ; F would consider it 
 al)out six to one. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. When nets are stretched aci'oss the lower ri\er do you tind many tish eome into 
 yours .' -A. Yes ; apparently just as many it depends a <,'ood deal on tlie tide. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How many meshes deep do you fish ? — A. iMtrty and titty ; it is very deep water 
 just otr here. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 <J. Wiiat do you think of giving licenses to I lulians wiio apj)ly .' A. I have no 
 (il)jection. ))ro\i(hjd they buy their own boat and net. As a geiu-ral rule the canner.s 
 advance money foi* these and so control the Indians. 
 
 By Mr. Wibiiot : 
 
 i^. Well, but it' l)oth white men and Tndiatis are furnished with money bv the 
 canners, how then? .\. Oli, .well, if all are on the same footing it will l)e all right. 
 There is one thing I would like to suggest about the white salmon. lAir some years 1 
 have bought all the white salmon I could get ; 1 buy them cheap and shij) them to the 
 east to NX'iiniipeg, lirandon, l\amloo[)s, and othei' places, and of course if we sell them 
 cluviii enough we get rid of them. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 (^). Do \ou thiid< white salmon as good as sockeyes ? — .\. I'or myself 1 like them 
 \ery much better. 
 
 (,). Ai'e the canners the only people who will not use white salmon .' A. \o ; they 
 don't use them some ha\(' ti'ied it. .Mr. Holbrook tried it but tlun'e is no sale for them ; 
 still, they are a lucer tish. 
 
 Mr. llnaiiNS. -Yes ; I know in N'ictoria ])eople won t take a sockeye if they can 
 get a white salmon, l)Ut of course the desire of the market governs. 
 
 Mr. ViKNNA. We used to label them here lake trout, but still it appears that 
 peoj)le do not care for them, they prefer tiie red colour. Mi', lirodic tried cainnng white 
 salmon als(t, ])ut I don't think it paid. 
 
 Mr. N\'iL.\i(tT. Well, sii', have you anything further to state .' -A. No, sir. 
 
 S.\]NrUEL DAWK, a native of .Newfoundland, a tisiierman, and I'csident of New 
 W estnunster for two years, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 <^. Well, sir, 1 su))pose we may procreed with the usual series of (|uestions as in the 
 case of other witnesses. What are your ideas in regard to the disposition of the tish 
 ott'al in the river? — A. W(dl, sir, my ideas are that with regard to tish I do not think 
 it much injui'ious. 
 
 i}. Well, regarding the bcnetit to the health or othei'wise of the inhabitants? — A. 
 .1 beli<'ve it injurious to the health of a person wiio drinks the water from the river. I 
 just speak from what 1 find myself, and \ know that 1 cannot get tlu^ same good health 
 since drinking the svater. and the stench from under the cannerie,"* is something fright- 
 ful, esi)ecially when the tide is low, and every fisherman has got to drink this water 
 along the edge of the river, and I know it atVects us. 
 
 i}. Has it any eU'ects, do ycai know, upon the cattle or any aiumals along the river? 
 A. i have uo cattle ; \ am not a farmer, still I do think it injurious to the health of 
 ]iersons workiui;' on the river. 
 
 <^. .\t and about the canneries, then, oli'al cau.ses a great stencil and unpleasantness] 
 - A. Yes. 
 
BRITISH COr.UMHIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 61 
 
 Q. You are a Hshernian, you say ? - A. Yes ; I fi.sli f<ir the markets off the town, and 
 in tlie soekeye season I fish at tlie mouth of the river. 
 
 Q. Has tliedffal, in your opinion, afl'ected your nets in any way ?- A. No : not at all. 
 
 Q. Oi' made any lo(l<j;ment down there (A. Oh, no; we see notlnng l)Ut tlie little 
 \vind-ba<j which floats and this sometimes lodges in the nets. 
 
 Q. JUit you don't see anything else? A. No : not at all. 
 
 (,>. AVhat do you think of the limitation of tht^ nund)er of nets ? A. I think there 
 -iiould he a limit. 
 
 (). In what way? A, There sliould he a I'ertain number of nets. I don't say it 
 -liould he open to e\erybody. T have no license myself, Ijut 1 know at the mouth of 
 I he river there are as many boats as can fish thei'e. 
 
 C^. Have y<ai any idea why you do not get a license ( — A. No ; I have been told by 
 the in.spector that no licenses were granted to new-comers, but only to old licensees who 
 had licenses l)ef'ore. 
 
 Q. You thought that a hardshij) ! A. I did think so and esjiecially when so many 
 licenses ai'e given to cannei's and freezers, fish markets and others, it is very hai'd that 
 tishermen sliould have so few. Tliey should have ;i fair share, say two-thirds of tiie licenses. 
 
 (,|. Y'ou tiiink an undue jjrojjortion of the i)oats Ushing tish at the mouth of tlu^ 
 ri\('r? A. Well, no more could Ijc acconmiodated as many as can fish nvv. there now. 
 
 C^. Hut when the pr(.'sent number is •')()() how could you expect to get a license .' 
 A. Well, i think t he i-ainiers and mai'Uct })eoplc should be (lepri\ed of st)me and they 
 should be given to the fisluirmen and persons wIk- come here to .settle. T don't mean to 
 sav that •")()() is enough T would increase that number, so that a fair nund)er coidd go 
 {■.: i!i. tishermen, while I would not throw the river open to e\eryone. 
 
 (}. Well, who would be the person not togct one.' \. Wi^ll, I cannot sav I speak 
 for the ])rotection of tlu' fish. 
 
 (}. You think, then, the present number of bouts at the mouth interfei'es with the 
 tish coining up the i'i\er .' -A. Yes ; and I belicxc if it was thrown open, the .")(J0 would 
 . .11 be -J,")!)!). 
 
 (}. Are you interested with rega I'd to the close season at alW A. Yes: I would 
 like to see the Suiulay close .sea.son close until the Sunday was over, not tliree-(|uarters 
 of it, for as far as I can see about the Sunday not half of it is kept. Men get to work 
 to get Itoats ready and get out on the river and wait until the time. 
 
 i). Then you think the whole Sunday should be taken in .' A. I do : i have not 
 tished these two years and I don't see it makes any dill'erence tome. 1 think the same 
 number of fish would lie caught as if they diil work on the Sunday. 
 
 Q. What mesh do you use ! 1 iiu'an in (le])th ' A. l^.rty meshes. 
 
 t^>. And you think too many boats at the mouth of thi' river is harmful to the ri\('r 
 tisheries ? A. Yes. 
 
 (•i). And that there are too many boats thi're now .' .\. Well, I would not say too 
 iiianv. 1 think thtne is as many now as should be. I may say i have been working for 
 the cannerynien and have been treated very unfairly by them. T only got lO cents 
 for mv tish, whereas the man who hiis his own license and lioat gets 20 cents, but tliis 
 last season 1 only got 0^ cents, the rest being taken otV for to }iay for the boat and 
 net. This only leaves ',\\ cents for myself and partner. If 1 had a license myself I 
 could liinc sold to anv one T liked. 
 
 <i>. Was this the arrangement made liefore starting? A. < )li, yes, we made the 
 arrangement, but if the canncrs had a larger nund)er of licenses they would treat us 
 and other fishermeu cmmi worse. 
 
 Q. .\nd yiMi ha\e applied for two years past for (he licenses? — A. Yes, and I ha\e 
 applied this year. 
 
 {.}. And vou had to go and tish for the canriei'ies and take just what they wished 
 to give you .' A. Yes. just what they wished to gi\e me. 
 
 C^. Do you think that the licenses should be transferable? — A. No. 
 
 (.j. It should be then to the actual fisherman, freezer or canner ,' .\. Well, the 
 canneries, of course tlu'V hire us to fish for them under their licenses, but otlieis should 
 not be transferable. 
 
 
62 
 
 MABINK AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. 1>) you see many (leiul fish wlieii yon (ire tishiiif,' ? A. No. not many. 
 
 C^. Well, you see some / A. Yes, some. 
 
 ii. Wlien tlo you see tliem, during the sockeye run?- -A. Yes, l)Ut not a great 
 many they seem to liave I'eceived injuries. 
 
 Q. Do you tish after the sockeye run? A. No, • because the canneries are closed 
 down. ■ 
 
 (,). .And if you had licenses for ytjurself you could ;j;n on fishing for humpbacks, 
 il'c. .' .\. Oh, we dont want the hum])l)acks. 
 
 Q. About how many lishermen white men ai'e there on the liver? A. I could 
 not give any idea. 
 
 J^l/ Mr. Aniis/ron;/ : 
 
 (,). Are there a hundred .' — A. Oh, yes, there are a hundred, perhaps two hundred 
 would be an outside ligure. 
 
 Q. is the n\ajority of fishermen employed by the canners, (jr with their own boats .' 
 - -A. For the canneries. 
 
 />'// J/r. WihiH.f : 
 
 Q. Well, two men to the b(.at would give one thousiind men. A. Well, Indians 
 fish four Uicn to the boat. T cannot ti'll the number of white men — f n(;\cr tlu)ught 
 pai'ticularly of that — {[uite a nundier of Japanese tish on the river. 
 
 <.^. Well, there were HSO odd boats last year that woul<l be about l.lfiO men, of 
 which you think only two hundred weie white men? — A. Well, perlia})s that would lie 
 about the number I <lon"t know though there are only alxtut fifty licenses given to 
 white men, that is white fishermen more than fo?'ty go to tlu:- Indians on the Fi-aser 
 Kiver. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, ha\'e you anything furtlier? — A. No, f thiidc I ha\c stated all I 
 wished to. 
 
 The Chairman thereupon declared the Coiminssion adjourned at 5.30 p.m., to meet 
 again in the City Hall at 7.3) p.m. 
 
 •20th February, 1892. 
 
 The Conunission r»'assenibled in the City Hall, New Westminster, at 7.30 p.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. WilnM»t, presiding ; Messrs. Higgins and Armstrong, and the 
 Secretary. 
 
 Mr. I). .1. Munn banded in the following letter, which was read and ordtM'ed to be 
 inserted in the nnnutes of proceedings, and to be taken as part of that gentleman's 
 evidence given din'ing the day : — ■ 
 
 Hit 
 
 " .\i;w Wkst.minsikh, Itlth November, l«'Jl. 
 
 '• John M('N.\n. Ksij., 
 
 " Inspector of Fisheries for Ib'itish Coknnbia. 
 
 " ])i:.\i! SiK, In response to your rei|uest of the 3r(l instant. 1, with ])leasure, now 
 submit you the infoi;mation I receixcd in regard to .salmon when on my reci'nt visit to 
 Lillooet and to Seton Lake. 
 
 " The lake is di'ained l)y a stream called f^eton lliv er, whii'h is about a mile in 
 length ; thence into Cayouse Creek and on a ilistance of two nules to the Fi'aser l{i\('i'. 
 
 " At the time I was thei'e the sti'eanis were at a normal height. Some Indiana 
 well' then scooping ont salmon for a winters supply, and 1 examined them carefully. 
 'J'hey pro\ed to l)c sockeye salmon, nearly all of which were female but contained no 
 ova. They were very spare and discoloured, and ihouglniuite nunwrous wei'e allendeax 
 ouring, ap])areiitly. to reach the lake. 
 
RRITISir CdLlIMlJlA FISHERY COMMtSSKtN. 
 
 63 
 
 •• ( )ii tlie liver hanks wiiss a mass of (lecoinposiiiy liuniphack salmon, and T Ic/irnt'il 
 
 tVuiii Mr. H. Keary, that tlicsc liad started to come in ai)()Ut the I'Jtiiof Septcmher, and 
 
 (cast'd alioiit tiie 1st of OctohiM'. Tliere was an iiiuisually heavy run ot' tlicni this year. 
 
 A> villi are auare, it was the (ith (ir 7th of Septeml)ei' when tiiese tish were notahle for 
 
 (iiiantity in the lower l<'ra.ser liiver, and the inarxellous rapidity of their aseent through 
 
 the eanons, against the rapids of the Fraser is thus pretty elearly indieated. The 
 
 ([iiiiinat, or sprinj^ sahnon moves towai-ds the lake in an indill'ereiit (piantity from May 
 
 uiiiii July, when the .soekeyes make their appearance and eontinue up to the latter jiart 
 .■ t V 'r\ I ...."^cii 4.' I .1. ... T 1 1 1 1 ...1.. 
 
 .null 'lllM, \v m-ll tlir; r\\ n,t\K- ^ i:.r\ jiKirvi- iin-ii (i| i|J\-M l tllll I.T elllll vuilllliut' Hlf t» t lilt* UIIU'I I'rlll. 
 
 of Au.ifust. The second or fall run of soekeyes, such as T ol)ser\('d, have appeared only 
 ill every aU>'rnate fourth year, and after the humpback run oil' this jiartieular year is 
 ()\er. I'hey are always inferior in iiuality and aj)pearance to tiie regular summer run of 
 soc'keye .salmon. 
 
 •' At the point of ettlusion from Seton Lake into Seton Kiscrthe exit is narrow, 
 shallow and tln^ water fairly swift. Here the Indians con,L,'rei;ate and scoo|) up iimiiense 
 (|iiantities of soek(^ye salmon fry in the month of May, wlien these are lea\in,Lt the lake 
 and prohahly lieadin,!; for the salt w;iter. These .salmon fry are sun-dried and stored for 
 uinier use. The Indian ayent f(H' tiie district. Capt. Mason, kindly procured some of 
 tlicin for me. Tiiey measured in lenytli an a\'eia:Lfe of ahoiit four and a iialf inches, witii 
 11 proportionate thickness of body, 'i'lu; aj^ent, 1 was told, eiidea\oured to impress upon 
 the Indians tiie disasti'ous conseijU(-nces of the wholesale s!auj,diter of tiiesinish, and 
 adiiionislied them to ([iiit the practice foi- tlieir own sakes, which lie exjiected would he 
 ildiie. I iiKiuired of \arious people in that \it-iiiity about the (juantity of fry lea\ in.i( 
 the lake, which tlun' say occurs when the spring freshets are w('il un<ler way, and they 
 one and all a,nree that the (piantity of fry uoiiii^ tlown is larj^e (jr small in proportion to 
 the i|uantity of .sockeye salmon enteriiii;' the lake the year ))revi(jus. This would indi- 
 cate that the fry are about .seven months old when they depart for salt water. The 
 trout here tind no allurements in the ani^ler's bait duriiiLC the monilis of .Sei>tember, 
 Octolier and November, or while salmon ova is in alaindance. 
 
 '• The two consecutive liea\y and two oil' runs of sockeye salmon have been regular, 
 u ith one exception -ISSS since the days of the miners in 1S.")S, and back into the 
 traditions of starvatiim years amonj; the natives. It is also as.serted by the closest and 
 must intelligent observers here, that tiie run of salmon in recent years lla■^ if anything in- 
 creased. 
 
 ■' 1 may add that this section of the country all'ords a most f.isoiirable o|){(oitunity 
 for investigation into the habits of tiie salmon frequ 'nting these waters and for collec- 
 tion of data, valuable from a scientific stand-point. 
 
 " The doubt, for instance, as to whether salmon ever return \<< salt water after 
 having made ample ]u-o\ision against the extinction i>f their species by the deposit of their 
 o a. could on Seton Hi\('r be proved be\Mnd dispiit<', and this strange and interesting 
 pliase of fatality (;oiiclusi\ely deter-mined. ( )l)ser\ ation wnnhlalso add greatly to the 
 knowledge we now possess of the yoiini: fry, by comjiu'ing those artificially hatched with 
 those produced under natural conditions, and many other matters of information essential 
 til a proper understanding of the conditions of ^ujiply, could be easily olitained, thus 
 jix ing zest to further interesting i-esearch ami impiiry. 
 
 (Sgd.) '•!). .]. Ml' XX." 
 
64 
 
 MARrNE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 .FAHEDC". WESTON, .1 n!itiv(' of Novji Scotia, u fisheniian by occupation, aiici 
 resilient of New ^^ est minster foi* .several years, was duly swoi'n. 
 
 By Air. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. \\ "11 sir. have you any statement to make in re^'ard to tUe fisheries of tliis pro 
 vince, or ki idred matters .'- A. I would rather if you would ask me cjuestions, sir. 
 
 Q. Weil, if you liaM' any ])articular point A. T would prefei' speakinj^ on thai 
 
 aftei'waids. 
 
 Q. \'ery well. AVhat do you think of the etiects of throwing.' large tiuantities of 
 offal in the river? — A. I d(tn't think it interferes at all with the tish. 
 
 t^). Hut witi: reirard to lu'alth and from a sanitary standpoint f A. Well, a.s j'eirards 
 myself. T cannot com].!ain about driidsing' water, but 1 know that lots of fishermen ha\c 
 l)een in hosjiital as a result of d'inkini.' the water, and have had ty))hoid fever, A'c. 
 
 Mr. HificiNs. Water from near the canneries ? A. Oh, anywhere from the 
 mouth up. 
 
 /.'// J/;-. Wl/,u,if : 
 
 (J. Do you find much oti'al lodj^erl about .' A. Yes ; T find lot.s, atul .yet it in mv 
 nets. 
 
 (.(|. AVhcre do you fish .' A. In the sockeye run, down at the mouth of the I'iver. 
 
 (}. Do you notice the oft'al in shallow water? — A. No. 
 
 (•i). ^^'hat eflt'ct has it ujion your nets.' A. I don't know as it has any. ft ma\ 
 make them dirty. 
 
 (^». Do nets ill that condition pre\ent fish (Miteinnj; them? A. No ; a man washcv 
 his net often in fact. e\-eiy (.'hance he g<>ts. 
 
 Q. Then, on the wiiole, it is not injurious to fish enteiinu the river.' A. No ; 1 
 don t think so. 
 
 (}. Well. then, as to health what effect do you think the ofial has ? A. T think ii 
 injurious. 
 
 (,|. And some diseases may, in your oi)inion, .such as typhoid fever, be i)idu_yht about 
 by this oti'al bein^- thrown into the river ? ^"^ou say some fi.sliermen have been sick ,' 
 A. Yes : se\'eral lia\(' been in hospital. 
 
 <^). NN'liat are your views as rej^ai-ds the limitation of nets? — A. As i-efi;ards cannei's 
 and freezers ! would like to see them i,-et no more than one license each, also saltcrs : 
 l)Ut tishermeii wjio work their own boats, i l)elie\c every JJi'itish subject shoukl get a 
 license who rei|uii'es one. 
 
 (.^). 'r\\v\\ iiW /'(Hid tidi' fishermen, beinir Itiitish subjects, should ^et licen.ses ? -A. 
 Yes, sii-. 
 
 Q. With regard to the close .season, what are your views ,' A Well, T think ii 
 ju.st as good as it is with the excejition that if rules ai'e made, I w.iuld like to see it 
 stai'ted at \- o'cl< 'k on Satui'day to Monday morning at (i. 'i'hat >'.iiu!(l give i-anners a 
 chance to clean up, and if they were getting too much tish, they could sto[) tlieii' boats. 
 
 C^. Then you are (pnte of the belief that Sunday should be kept wholly both in th' 
 intei'csts of moi'ality and the interests of the fisheries?- A. Y'es. 
 
 Q. If the close season is established at those hours, the canners would adapt them 
 selves to the circumstaiu'cs, would they .' A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (.^*. What about an annual close timt> you know in No\a Scotia thei'e is an annual 
 clo.se .season ?- A. 1 left home twenty yeai's ago there was not much talk of salmon 
 fishing there then. 
 
 (■i. Hut what is your \ ie\\ here as to an annual close time ? -A. Well, I should 
 think when the sahiion aic ready to spawn, fishing should be stopi)ed, say from the iTjtli 
 of August ii|i to I'.'tth September, or end of September. 
 
 i). Would that give an annual clo.se time sufficient for the protection of the tish .' 
 • A. ^'es, sir. 
 
 (,►. What come in after the end of September? A. Cohoe.s, and we are lujt allowed 
 to fisli for spring salmon through the winter. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 65 
 
 Q. Are the spring saliium in the river in the winter ! \. Well, I think so. I 
 liave known Siwashes to catcii st.'el-lieads alonj; in January for their own use up river. 
 
 Q. You have never taken any yourself / A. Xo, sii-. 
 
 Q. You think it advisable that some restrietion sliould l)e jilaeed on the excessive 
 tishin,^ at the mouth of the river, do you noL .' — A. No, sir, I don't. 
 
 i}. liut the boats congregate theie very largely, don't they .' A. Well, yes, they 
 .ue pretty thick, but if the Ijoats are too thick to catch tish they go farther up the river. 
 
 Q. If the boats were lessened in number, would not more fish go up the river? — 
 A. Well, I dont know but it wouhl be that way. 
 
 Q. Is the e.\act mouth of the I'iver wher(! netting is carried on, very narrow more 
 there than fai'ther up? — A. Yes ; T think it i -. Still, the salmon go in with the tides 
 ail over the sands. Canoe Pass is also a big fishing [ilace and fishing goes on right out 
 to the edge of the (iulf. 
 
 Q. What nuud)ei' of meshes do you say you fish .' .V. Forty meshes. I have not had 
 tiie pleasure of owning a net yet. 1 have applied for licenses but never got them. 
 
 Q. How many years have you been here ! \. Si.x years -T lia\-e apj>lied for 
 three years. 
 
 (.}. What e.xcuse did they give you.' A. IJecause I never had one befoi'c. I 
 could have had one in ISSS, but T put it oft" too long, and then the licenses were limited. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 (.}. Are you aware of any men getting licenses who were not fishermen .' \. Yes ; 
 lots of them. I don't ca'! Mr. Port or Mr. Vienna fishermen no more than the 
 canners are. Also a nuiix named Miller from Washington Territory — he is a stranger 
 and should not get one. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any othei-s ? — A. Well, 1 have only heard of others. 
 
 Q. Any saloon-keepers ? —A. T have heard of them. 1 heard that Brennan, of 
 the Cleveland Hotel, got one. 
 
 Q. Mr. McNab, can you tell us anything about this ? 
 
 Mr. M(;N.\B. -No one of the nanie of Brennan got a license last year. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then I understand the i)roportion of licenses issued to persons like yourself 
 and other.s would amount to (30 out of o<S0 —that is what you complain of, is it not ? ~ A. 
 Yes, sir ; T don't see how Mr. Port and Mv. Vienna gel ten licenses. I don't think Mr. 
 Port entitled, because the ten licenses are laid off when the tish come in heavy, and then 
 in the sockeye run aftei' the spring salmon are over, it will take but one or two boats 
 perhaps to keep his establishment going. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 Q. ^^'hat does he do with his fish? -A. He sells them to the canners. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. But is he not a freezer ?- -A. He has not fro/en any fish to my knowledge during 
 last year, and I have been working for Mr. Port for two springs, and to my knowledge he 
 don't freeze any fish. 
 
 Q. Did you fish for him during the sockeye run ? — A. No. sir; I would not work 
 for him. 
 
 Q. Did he freeze any then ? A. N'o, sir. Mr. Port paid S cents for fish and Mr. 
 FiWen was paying "JO, so Mr. Port sold his to Mr. Ewen. All the freezers are the same. 
 
 t^. What is the difi'erence between a .si)ring sahni>n of aljout twenty pounds and a 
 sockeye of from s(>ven to eight pounds weight that is, the tlifFerence in value '. A. Oh, it 
 would be consiih'rable. A , pring salmon is worth all the way from oO cents to $1.:25. 
 They are ofteai scarce. 
 
 Q. What is their usual size ? — A. From fifteen to thirty jxiuivds, on an average 
 about twenty pounds generally. 
 
 10c— 5 ' 
 
66 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 'fife 
 
 Q. And with your experieiioe in Hshiiif,', what would you sny is about the average 
 weiglit of the sockeye ? -A. Some are small, some large, I never weighed them. 
 
 Q. Were you tishing in 1889?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In 1S90? That was a large year I think, was it not? — A. 1889 was a big year. 
 
 Q. What W!is 18<)0?— A. A good season. 
 
 ii. What was the average of iish that season ?— A. T could not say — they were larger 
 than in a big run — I should think they were about eigiit pounds. 
 
 By Mr. ArinstroiKj : 
 
 Q. You nevtM- weighed any ( — A. Xo, sir ; 1 never did or .saw one weighed. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many cans an eight-pound .salmon would make? Four or five 
 cans ? -A. 1 should think it would make foui' cans anyway. 
 
 Q. And then if it made four or five cans the balance would be offal ? — ^Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ts all that thrown away? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But as a matter of fact you don't know how many cans a fish would make — you 
 don't really know ? — A. No, sii" ; as a matter of fact I don't really know, f have heard 
 .say they make that number. 
 
 Q. Is the run of .sockeye .salmon later in the season than formerly? — A. I don't 
 know that it is. 
 
 Q. Not later than three or foui- years ago? A. No, I dont know that it is. 
 
 Q. How long did you fish this yeai- ? — A. Fifteen or twenty days. 
 
 Q. How late in the season foi- the cannery ? — A. ^'o about the 15th or 20th of July. 
 
 Q. And how late the .season before? — A. ioth August, 1 think. I am not certain 
 exactly. Our cannery shut dt)wn earlier than most of the rest on account of the tins 
 being exhausted. 
 
 C^. Well, now, what about the Indians getting licenses? — A. I think they .'?hould 
 get licen.ses, too, if they pay ior them and can furnish their own boats and nets the same 
 as white men, but not apply for a license and then get the cannerymen to pay for it. 
 
 C^. How are you going to avoid that? — A. Let him show his license, the inspector 
 is on the river. 
 
 C^. The boat you fished with, was it under a boat license belonging to Mr. Port? — A. 
 Not this summer. This summer I fished for a man named Boutillier. 
 
 Q. Is I'outillier here i A. No, I think not ; his partner was here this afternoon. 
 
 By Mr. Hiygins : 
 
 Q. About this typhoid fever, are you (juite sure it comes from the water ? -A. Well, 
 I think it was from that- niy ])artner was sick and I considered it was from that. 
 
 Q. Did he die? -A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did he live, in town or on a scow? A. Oh, he lived in good condition, 
 he was all right. I can tell you the fishermen on this river, if they can afford it, Ijke to 
 live well, 
 
 Q. Do many fishermen live in .scows? — A. Yes, sir; a good many. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Where do they bring the scows at night? — A. Always in some place right close 
 to the edge of the water. 
 
 Q. And if there is any impurity in the water he is sure to get it? — A. Yes, he is 
 sure to get it. 
 
 C^. And yet you live there, you think it a proper place for men to live? A, Well, 
 we have nowhere else. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot ; 
 
 (.,). How did you fish youi' boat this year?- A. On .shares, I got 10 cents, divided 
 between myself and partner, or 5 ('ents (>ach. 
 
 Q. What was the market value of fish? — A. Well, I have heard it was 15 cents. 
 Q. When you got only 10 cents? — A. Yes. 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 Are 
 
 
 Q- 
 
 And 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 Are 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 And 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 Doy 
 
 A. 
 
 No, 
 
 sn- ; 
 
 think, on ace 
 
 the 
 
 pre 
 
 erenc 
 
 frcczei'.-! 
 
 , salte 
 
 I)ig 
 
 run 
 
 coni( 
 
 not 
 
 want the 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 Thei 
 
 UVjr 
 
 our 
 
 livin, 
 
 By 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 That 
 
 this 
 
 year, it ^ 
 
 runs in con.se 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 67 
 
 (j>. What were salmon fetching that were sold to Mr. Houtillier by other people ? 
 A. I (lont know. 
 
 (^. Did you think you j,'ot the full value.' A. No, sir; T thought he was <,'etting 
 •2{) ii'iits while T was f,'etting but 10. 
 
 Q. Well, is this a I'egular praetice for freezers and sailers who <,'et licenses and 
 liirc Mien like you, to then go and sell the tish to the eanners and give you only a share / 
 .\. Yes, sir. 
 
 i}. \i you had a boat of your own what would you have got? ,\. Twenty cents. 
 
 (,|. Have you seen dead salnitHi floating ilown the river? A. I have .setMi a few in 
 .August. 
 
 i). The.se salmon, in your opiriion, would they be .salmon that had been wounded 
 ni' weakened and had then died -do you think they had been injured before death '--A. 
 Will. [ could not say. T think they had spawned, l)ecaus<> they lo')ked thin and narrow, 
 l)u', then we don't stop to investigates dead tish. 
 
 Q. What about these white salmon the spring salmon are bn^li white and red, are 
 tlicv not ? -A. We get a few and salt them for oui' own u.se if the market don't take 
 tlieiii. They will take them if you will give them to them for nothing. 
 
 (). Who iloes that ? — A. Mr. Poit and ]Mr. Vienna. 
 
 (,). And so they take the red salmon and pay you foi' them, and the white salmon 
 tlicv only take for nothing? — A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. liiggins : 
 (.}. Do you not think the white .salmon a good tish ?— A. Yes ; T prefer them to the 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Are they caught more or le.ss all summer? -A. Yes; all sununer. 
 
 Q. And are they marketable ? — A. Not the white. 
 
 <,). Are there more of white than red? — A. Yes; often they are more plentiful. 
 
 Q. And you give them away ? — A. Yes ; often to Hi washes and others. 
 
 Q. Do you know any ca.ses whei-e white salmon were caught and thrown away ? — 
 No, sir ; I would salt them before throwing them away. 1 would like to say that T 
 ik, on account of canners having .so many license.s, that we fishermen should be given 
 preffuence on the river. Siwashes or white men should have first chance, then 
 zers, salters and canners, for as long as you issue twenty licenses to canners, when the 
 
 run comes the canners can get fish enougli with their own boats and then they do 
 want the outside fishermen. 
 
 (.}. Then the canners become monopolists ? — A. Yes ; we are prevented from earn- 
 uur living. 
 
 rp(; 
 
 A. 
 
 thii 
 the 
 
 free 
 big 
 not 
 
 in<r 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. That is only during the big runs? — A. Yes; ))ut if .salmon continue as they did 
 this year, it will be two or three years out of four. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. But is this not opposed to the prevailing theory ? — A. Well, we have had good 
 runs in consecutive years. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Would twenty boats be sufficient to supply the canners last year I A. Yes, sir ; 
 till' canner i fisheil for hii+l twenty boats and thi'ee outside licenses, and then we had to 
 I shut down because we got too many fish. We had to lay otf thirty-six hours in the middle 
 <if a week, that is thirty-six hours in the whole fishing season. 
 
 Q. What was the capacity of the cannery you worked for? — A. I have no idea — 
 It was Ladner's cannery. 
 
 10c— 5^ 
 
68 
 
 MARINK AND KISIIBIIIES. 
 
 By Mr. JIujyins: 
 
 Q. I)o yi>u tliiiik the cfiiinors slnmld lifivc any licoiiscs? A. Well, it" tlicir an 
 Hritish suhjccts aiitl resident tislicfnicii cimii.ifli to liikr up all. tlicy slinuld liavc ninic, i<v 
 pci'liaps (iiif racli. 'I'Ik.'v make lots oi' imtiicy, Id tlifiii Imy tlicir lisli. 
 
 By Mr. WUviot : 
 
 i}. Thi'ii yiiii coiisidfi' they should (Icpciul ii|ioii the lisliciiin'ii t'oi' tlicii- (ish ? -A. 
 Yes, sir, 
 
 (.}. Would yon tiiiiik it uiifaii' to ^ivc tlif caiuKTs ten oi' lit'ti't'ii licenses? • 'I'hey woulij 
 (le|>end ujioii the lishefiueii for the rest of their fish if they re(|uired more. A. Well. I 
 (lout object to the caimers if the fisiiei'meri ;,'ct. tiu'ir licenses, hut i want t(t see I hr 
 fishermen ^'et their licenses (ii-st. The woi'kini^man on the rivei- should i^ct the lirst chainc. 
 N'erv neai'ly all tlie fishermen who ^'et lii-enses stay here all the year round and tlicv 
 spend tiieir money here, while, on the other hand, I know some cannei's who don't spend 
 a (MMit. 'I'hey sjxmkI it away elsj'where, and accordin;,' to the amount tliey make tlir 
 fisliermen spend nuich moi-e money in the country. 
 
 (.}. I5ut don't the canners spend a larj^e amount, of money don't they pay waj^es in 
 the people employed inside the cannery .' A. Ves : it is true they do, but you knowvcrv 
 well where the money that is paid to Chinamen ,i,foes -tiiat does not do any ^ood to tin' 
 countiT. Then many of them ^'et theii' supplies from outside, they don't spend muili 
 ni(jn(\v here foi' them. 
 
 Q. W'hatdo you uu'an liy " supplies "f A. Well, the fishermen ,t,'et all their fudd 
 and su|>piies from the cannei-ies durinjf the season, and the canners ire' most (^vervtliiiiu' 
 from Victoria and e\('n from San [""rancisco these tliinj^s are not ^'ot from residcm 
 people here. 
 
 (j. But do you not consider that the I'anners put caj)ital a j^ood deal of money 
 into the canneries? A. Well, when a man makes ."<i)(),000 in one season and — 
 
 By Mr. Ifiggins : 
 
 Q. Are you prepared to state that on oath? — A. Oh, no; I am not, hut \ know it 
 ■ — it is pretty W(>11 known around here. 
 
 Mr. Aimsi'KOMi. Oh, hut we cannot take hearsay evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mo'l'. AN'ell, sir, is thei'e any tinny further you wish to say ? A. No, I think 
 not— we want to yet licenses, that is the yrt^it trouble. 
 
 ii. 
 (I 
 
 Wl 
 W 
 
 Th 
 
 
 B 
 
 from th 
 
 Ua 
 Wj 
 
 at. 
 
 HAIJKY NELSON, a native; of Norway, a fisheinien, nine years in P.ritisli 
 Columbia, and a resident of New Westminster, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, .sii-, what have you to represent ? A. I have made two applications fm 
 licen.ses — this yeai- and the yeai' l)efore last, but could not yet any license. 
 
 Q. What was the reason yiven you for tliat ? A. Hecause I had not had a license 
 before. 
 
 t^. Whom did you fish for? A. For Mr. Kweii last year, and the year before tor 
 :\Ir. ilarlock. 
 
 i). On what terms? A. < )n sh.-i res this year. 
 
 (). Ami you are not .satisfied ? A. No, sii; I am not. 
 
 (.2. Why ? A. liecause duriny the sockeye run others who have licenses sell to tin' 
 canners and yet all the benefit they yet '20 cents for their fish while I yet but 4 ceiii<| 
 -8 ctMits between me and my [)ai'tner. Mr. Port sells his tisR all to the caniKM's. 
 
 Q. Did he not fi-eeze them ? A. Nt), sir. 
 
 i.i. Then these; licen.ses Mr. Port y(;ts he only uses duriny the I'un f>f s[)riiiy salmnii 
 aiul then in the sockeye run he sells to the cannei's and employs you at .S cents a fish .' 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 q. I)i( 
 
 t annerv. L 
 
 q'. We 
 
 more there 
 
 
 f^! 
 
 Q- 
 
 Wl 
 
imiTlsn COLUMIIIA I'lSllKKV ('((MMISSION. 
 
 69 
 
 (). Tlicii your \if\vs would lie that tlic outside (islicniirii sliould ^ct tlic liiciisfs? 
 .\, I lliiuk tluit cvfiy tislicniijiii wlio is ujinii tin- river for (wo yeurs should ),'et licenses, 
 I iliiid< tliey should lie ull tjikeii tVoni the (•■iiiiiers iiiid Mi'. Port iuid Mi'. Viemm and 
 siicli others. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 (). iiut dotvs not Mr. Vienna Uee|i a lish market .' .\. 'N'es, hut he can Uuy all his 
 
 li-.li troni oi 
 
 itside fishermen. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (^. Well, now, what do you think as rej,'ards the olVai ■? .\. I think it very injurituis 
 t(p the water. We have to drink it and it is very unlicaithy. It is all very well to say 
 iiiiniv little lish eat it uj), hut F know the heads and tails ;,'etinlo tiio tishei'men's nets 
 I jiave caught lots of them, and the stutV stinks awfullv a man cannot j,'et within a 
 
 in 
 
 ile of it with any comfort. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 (). What do you do with it? .\. < >h, I chuck it away again. 
 (^>. .\nd where does it go / A. Oh, the tide takes it out. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 (). Then you do think it injurious to the health of the iidiaiiitants '. A. Yes, sir, I 
 dii. Cases of tyjihoid fe\'er are plentiful down the river. 
 
 (.^. Are there any I'ases al)0\'e ? A. I don't know. 
 
 Mr. Hl(ifJiNs. Well, hut then- is typhoid fever in N'ictoriaand othcM' places, in fact 
 fverywher*'. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (}. Where do you live .' Do you live on a scow? .\. [ live in a scow, yes. 
 (}. Where do you usually put it ? A. Oh, at different places along tlu' river. 
 (^. Then you have the henefit of all injury in the water '. -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Have you ever had typhoid fever? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it from drinking Fraser River water?— A. No; I would not say it wu8 
 fr'oin that. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Now, what do you think of the Sunday do.setime? A. T think the fishenneu 
 should have all Saturday and Sunday that leaves half a day to fix the net in and 
 generally clean up, and leaves Sunday for a holiday. 
 
 Q. Have you seen many dead fish floating down the river? — A. Y'es ; plenty of 
 tlieui in th(! middle of August. 
 
 Q. Where do you think they would come from ? A. Mostly from the canneries - 
 chucked overljoard they get too many fish on hand and chuck them away ; then of 
 '•nurse, there are a few tish dropped from the net.s. 
 
 By Mr. ArnixInnKj : 
 
 (,». Did you ever .see fish thrown oil' a cannery wharf ?- -A. Y'es, onetime at Laidlaw's 
 lannerv. Last year I saw a Chinaman chucking tish over from a scow. 
 
 ii. Were there many ? A. Well, I .saw about a hundred —1 don't know how many 
 more there were before 1 came up. 
 
 /i;/ Mr. \Vl/n,o/ : 
 Q. What day of the week was that? A. On a ]*'ridav. 
 

 IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 &^ 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 / 
 
 
 ^ 
 
 ^.^ 
 
 1.0 
 
 1.1 
 
 I2£ 125 
 
 lit m 
 
 ■ 4.0 
 
 ** 13.6 Wb 
 
 US 
 
 lU 
 
 1^ 
 
 1^ M m 
 
 Hiotographic 
 
 Sciences 
 Corporation 
 
 33 WIS*^ MAIN STRliT 
 
 vraSTM.N.Y. 145M 
 (716) •72-4503 
 
 

70 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Arvixtrony : 
 
 Q. Why did he throw them away ? — A. liecuuse tliey wanted fresh fish. 
 
 ii. Wlmt depth net do you trsh with?- A. 1 use sixty meshes. It depends on the 
 depth of water — thirty-Hve mesiies at the moutii of the river- some dse fifty, hut tli«u 
 fish have plenty of show to go up. Most of the fishiny is done in slack water, and tin- 
 fish have a good chance to go up in the strong water. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wllmot : 
 
 Q. Well, have you anything further to tell us? A. No, F think not, sir. 
 
 P^ 
 
 
 THOMAS HOOD, a native of Newfoundland, a fisherman, and resident of New 
 Westminster for two years, was duly sworn. 
 
 Ihj Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, we will he pleased to hear what you have to say ? A. T have he ii 
 oidy two yearK on the river and I have hut little exix'rience in this fishery, though I 
 have been a fisherman. 
 
 Q. Have you had a license? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not? A. T was told all were taken up. I fished two years by contract 
 for a cannery, using their boat and net and license. Last year fish averaged 15 to L'O 
 cents to those with their own licenses, but I could only get six and a half. I have a 
 home here and a family, and I came here to try anrl better myself as a fisherman ; hear 
 ing reports of this country.! left Newfoundland to conre here. I might show you, gen 
 tlemen, these references given me before leaving Newfoundland and which will perhaps 
 vouch somewhat for my character and standing. (Mr. Hood here handed in letters of 
 reference iwnw Messis : Munro and I>isho]>, of St. Johns, Newfoundland, dated 18tli 
 February, 1890, and from G. W. R. Herlei of Bay Roberts, Newfoundland, and which 
 testified vei-y highly to Mr. Hood's ability and standing as a fisherman and mastt'r 
 mariner.) After th« Chairman's perusal of the above letters aloud, 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Certaiidy, Mr. Hood, those references speak very highly of your 
 ability and dexterity both as a fisherman and marinei-. Tt does seem hard that such a 
 good fisht rman should not have been able to get a license. 
 
 11 If Mr. I/i(/</ins : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any who got licenseswhom you would consider were not entitled 
 to it? — A. No, sir, T am but two years here, but still I consider that a numl)er of licen 
 ses have been granted that should nt)t have been. It is very hard and unjust that only 
 fifty licenses should go to whitemen who are fishermen out of 5S0. It is right that the 
 cannerymen who have gone to great expense should get licenses, but they should not 
 have the control of eveiything. You can see how T stood last season, it is very plain 
 I could not get a licen.se myself and was forced to take just whatever the canners 
 liked to give. I have my own boat and net and have been raised a lishei-nuin. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilmnt : 
 
 Q. Did you catch many spring salmon? - A. N(» ; I only fished for sockeyes. 
 
 t^. What Mund)er did you take in your boat? A. 4,300. 
 
 t^. For which you got fij, cents? A. Yes. 
 
 C^. What was about their average weight? — A. Six to eight pound.s. 
 
 Q. Did you fish the year before also ,' —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were the fish larger then? A. Th«'y were not as large as in '90. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea how many cans the seven-pour 1 fi.sh will make? -A. I don t 
 know. 
 
 Q. What do you think of this ofFal that is thrown in the river in such (juantities ,' 
 — A. I don't think it does much harm --the force of the water going down this river 
 takes it out (juickly. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA H8HEBV COMMISSION. 
 
 71 
 
 Q. Have you seen any in the bays and sloiijflis? A. Xo ; T fished at the mouth of 
 the I'iver ; I have not seen the shores farther up. 
 
 Q. Do you thini< there is t >o much tishinjf at the mouth of tlie river? - A. Oh, T 
 don't tiiink so, sir. There is plenty of room away over to Point Roberts, and plenty of 
 room for the tish to eouie in. 
 
 Q. But if less boats were tishinj,' there more fish would come up, would they not? 
 — A. Oh, no ; I dont think any injury is done. 
 
 Q. What do y(Ui think i>f the Sunday close time? — A. Wc^ll, 1 don't fish on 
 Sundays ; but upon that point i would not like to lay down the law fcjr others. 
 
 Q. But do you not think Sunday should be kept? A. Yes, 1 think so. For the 
 two yeai's I have fished on the river I have not fishe<l on Sundays, and T always found 
 I fj;ot as many fish on Monday mornin;,' as the others who fislu'd on Sunday night. I 
 have done the same on the (Jrand Banks, and have had a schooner alongside me that 
 tished on Sunday, while we did not ; but it is a fact that we invariably got just as many 
 tish in the long run as she did. 
 
 Q. Then you consider that there is a s]>ecial Providence that favours the good fish- 
 erman ? — A. Well, it certainly looks something like that. (Laughter.) 
 
 By Mr. Armstromj : 
 
 Q. Tf the men conunenced fishing at (i o'clock on Monday morning, how soon could 
 the cannej'ies commence work? — A. About noon, I think ; if theie were plenty of fish 
 running. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot ; 
 
 Q. You think it is not necessary to have six houis in advance to prepare to fish- 
 that is, they could just as well connnence fishing at I'J o'clock Sunday night as at 6 
 o'clock Sunday evenin,"?— A. Y'es, I think so. 
 
 By Mr. Hi<j<jir\s : 
 
 Q. You could not induce theui to give you more than 6^ cents for your fi.sh ? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. WHrnot : 
 
 Q. Do you pursue any other calling than fishing? — A. T work wherever T can get 
 woi'k, and whenever I can get it, with pick ami shovel, anything in fact. 
 Q. Have you anything further to lay before us ! — A. No, sii-. 
 
 WILLIAM DINNEAR, a native of Australia, a fishernuin by occupation, and 
 resident of New Westminster since 1H82, was duly sworn. 
 
 ^fr. Wii-MOT. — Well, sir, proceed. — A. Well, I wish to say that T have been fishing 
 on the Fraser Hivei- for iouv years, and luive applied for licenses but have n(!ver 
 received one. 
 
 Q. Why did y<m not get them ? — A. T was notified by letter in 1880 that the 
 whole number was issued, and if more were given out I woukl be notified. 
 
 By Mr. Hiygins : 
 
 Q. Were y<tu ever notified I — A. No, sir ; I never was. T did not apply last year 
 because I thought I would be notified ; but F have never received any information on 
 the sul)ject. This is the letter I got from Mi-. Mowat, .saying that T would be notified. 
 (Handed in letter, which was returned by the chairman after reading.) 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot.: 
 
 Q. Have others who came in the country since you did get licenses, and who 
 applied after you or after the date of this letter ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
12 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 X. I should say six and a 
 -do you think it injurious? 
 
 C^. Weic thi'y lesidents of the place or were they from other localities? — A. Well, 
 1 think one or two in narticular were foreigners, hut I lielieve they afterwards took out 
 their papers ; 1 think they were Italians — at least one was, 
 
 CJ. ^^'hat was the otiier ? — A. I am not sure what lie was. 
 
 (.}. You think they took out papers — naturalization papei'S ? — A. I think so. 
 
 C^. Whom did you fish for ? — A. I was fishing on shares. La.st season T fished 
 .'mother man's license ; he was blind and he asked me to take his license and ilsh it, and 
 he gave nie an order for his license on Mr. Vienna. 
 
 Q. What did you give him? — A. T gave him 1 cent a fish up to '2,000, and li 
 cents for all over that number. 
 
 Q. Then you sold your fish for whatever you could to tlie canneries — what tlid you 
 get ? — A. Ten cents. 
 
 Q. Then you realized 8i and !) cents? — A. I divided fair with my partner after taking 
 tlje cent and cent and a half out. 
 
 Q. Could you have sold at higher prices if you had had alicen.se? A. I could 
 have, yes. 
 
 Q. Then why did you not sell these at the higher price ? — A. Well, because I made 
 an agreement with the blind man to give them to a certain cannery and they only gave 
 10 cents per fish. 
 
 Q. Did this V)lind man pay for the license himself or was the money advanced by 
 the cannery? — A. I think the money was advanced to him. 
 
 Q. How many fish did you catch ? — A. About 3,000. 
 
 i). What was about their averaged size and weight ?- 
 lialf jMuinds — .some perhaps went seven pounds. 
 
 Q. What do you think of offal being thrown into the river 
 — A. I think it is injurious to fish at times when the water becomes slimy and dirty 
 
 Q. What do you think of it from a sanitary stand-point ? — A. I don't think it 
 healthy I think it cau.ses a good deal of sickness. 
 
 Q. What sort of sickness do you think has prevailed? — A. It causes fever — 
 typhoid, I think. I have known of a few cases, not many. Then we all have to boil the 
 water liefore drinking it, uidess we are out in our boats and cannot help ourselves. 
 
 Q. Do you live in a scow or on shore? — A. On shore. 
 
 <^. And do you see ofl'al lodging in the bays and sloughs ? 
 
 Q. And is the smell disagreeable ? -A. Yes, very often. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the Sunday close time? A. 
 gives a rest to all and lets the fish go up. 
 
 Q. What do you say about the limitation of licenses ? — A 
 any limit to licenses, fishermen should have the preference and should have one license 
 each. 
 
 Q. The Indian also ? — A. Yes, I think so. 
 
 y. And would you object to canners having a fair proportion of the licenses? — A. 
 I object to them having a monopoly, but I think they should have a fair proportion. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. In 3'our opinion, what constitutes a fisherni.an ? A. Oh, a man who can make 
 or mend his net and who fishes. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. A man who bought his net would be a fisherman too, would he not?- A. Well, 
 I mean a man who understands how to fish — I don't think a man who simply buys a 
 net would be a fisherman. 
 
 A. Very often. 
 I think it very good 
 Well, I think if there is 
 
 It 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. But supposing he bought Ins net and fished for years, would he not be a fisher- 
 man ? A. I don't think so unless he could mend or make his nets. 
 
 Q. How many fishermen are there who can mend their own nets? — A. Oh, perhaps 
 a hundred. 
 
BEITISH COLUMHIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 73 
 
 Q. You don't know that, do you? - A. Well, 1 wMtuld not take an oatli to it, l)ut I 
 think it would he ab(»ut tlie number. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 ii. J3ut there are many men perhap.s who have followed fishing all their lives and 
 vet cannot make a boat ov mend a net now, don't you consider them as ttshermen? — 
 A. T think all these things sliould be taken into account. 
 
 Q. How many yeais is it since you came here? —A. T came here in 1S82. 
 
 Q. Were you a fishernmn in Australia? -A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But you are now? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then when you first came here you would not have been entitled to a license as 
 a fisherman ?- -A. No. 
 
 Q. Then you see there was a time when you were not a fisherman, though, perhaps, 
 fishing on the river, however, I see what you mean you mean by a tisherma i not only 
 a man who fishes, but also thoroughly understands all the practical details of the business ? 
 A. Yes, sir, that is it. 
 
 Q. Well, now, have you anything further t(» tell us ? A. No, sir. 
 
 WILLIAM EDWARD DEVINE, a native of England, a fisherman, and resident 
 of the Pacific coast between the Columbia, Sacramento and Fra.sei' liivers, since 1SC2, 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. We shall be pleased to hear what you have to say on the question of the fish- 
 eries, Mr. Devine ? — A. Well, I merely came here to assist my brother-fishermen, as I 
 think we have a good chance now to speak before you gentlemen. I think it has been 
 a piece of injustice from the first go off, that poor men who make their living on the river 
 cannot get licenses, and I know old fishermen who are here now, have applied several 
 times, but could not get any license. 
 
 Q. Have you had a license ? — A. For the last three years I have had, sir. You 
 see, sometimes we go north —we go up to Skeena and Rivers Inlet and the Naas, and 
 we hjvppen up country and take chances. We say, if the Eraser is bad, we will go to the 
 Skeena or Naas, and we think they will be f^ood, and when we come back again our 
 license here is gone we would be off the list and no Iicen.se would be granted, and 
 other men come in and get licenses. Of course, the moie goes in the better for the 
 country ; but those men who pass their time in physical labour and depend entirely 
 upon fishing for their living, sh(»uld get a license. 
 
 Q. When did you fish (m the Skeena last ? — A. I never fished on the Skeena. I 
 said some of us do. I went to Rivers Tidet, but lately have stuck to here so as to save 
 my license. 
 
 CJ. You have fished on the Columbia and Sacramento ? — A. Yes ; I have fished in 
 all of them ; but for the last ten or twelve years I have remained here. 
 
 Q. What number of fish do you take? — A. The year before hist I took 10,000. 
 
 Q. You mu.st be a good fishermen ? A. Well, no. I was right at the door or 
 mouth of the rivei", and I fished away out beyond the lighthou.se, and these fish are 
 better than those up river. 
 
 y. How long do you think they are coming from the mouth of the river to, sa^- up 
 here ? — A. Well, I cannot say ; but on the Sacramento we have marked the chinooK u,nd 
 known them to be five weeks nuiking thirty miles. We put our initials on the skin to 
 see how fast they would travel. 
 
 Q. Was that in tidal water ? A. Yes ; all tidal water. 
 
 Q. How wide was the river where tliis was done ? A. Well, about six or seven 
 miles. When the fish are coming into the river you can stand in a boat and see them 
 waiting around before they go up. I don't think that fish go suddeidy out of salt water 
 into fresh. Of course they come in to spawn. If I have two nets, 1 always put in the 
 
74 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 two. Oil a 11)1(1 (lay lu'ver put in your wi in shallow water, but on a warm day go i<n 
 the sand. The dee[)er the water the wanner it is. In warm weather you will ahva\^ 
 see Hsh play well on the sands, and T have had them alongside my l)(«at for an hour at a 
 time. 
 
 Q. You say you have caught 10,000 in one sea.son ?~ A. Yes ; but others got mini' 
 than me. I was sick just from drinking the water of the Fraser Hiver. Some men 
 turn in 1,000 tish in one night. 
 
 Q. To wlumi do you sell? — A. The (Jurry Point cannery. 
 
 y. What did you get for your tisii ?— A. Ten cents each ; if any more was given, 
 we would get more. 
 
 Q. Should tishermen who get licen.ses be Ihiti.sh subjects? — A. Yes; to a limitcil 
 extent. 
 
 (^. What do you mean by that ? — A. Well, T would give the licenses to men wlm 
 are really Hshernien and make their living by fishing. 
 
 Q. Well, suppose all were really fishermen f- -A. Oh, well, you can overfish anvei. 
 but the Fiaser is not, and I think the hatchery has been of gr(^at ben(!fit. Common 
 sense tells any one that, when for the last three years we have had great runs. 
 
 Q. Then you are satisfied that ovei fishing will bring about depletion ?- A. Yes. 
 certainly. Sfiwdust and other matters will also hurt the tish. I was in Oregon when 
 tlun- made the first laws for fishing, and T know they thought all such matters wcrr 
 very hurtful. 
 
 By Mr. Armstromj : 
 
 ii. What about the Indians ? — A. Well, they are certainly fishermen and should 
 get licenses the same as any one else. 
 
 i}. Suppose '200 Indians applied, would you give them all licenses? — A. Well, 
 no, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, then, how many should be given? — A. About one-third to the Indians 
 and the rest to the whites. 
 
 Q. Why restrict them to one-third ?- A. Because we have made the country what 
 it is— we taught the Indians how to fish- that is, to fish with any degree of success for 
 commeicial purposes- they were fishing with spears and grip-nets, and all sorts of odd 
 fashioned arrangements when first 1 came to the country, and all their knowledge of 
 first-class work they have gained from us. 
 
 Q. How many licenses then w<juld you give the canners? A. I am not in a posi 
 tion to .say, but I would allow a fair number. 
 
 Q. Would you say twenty or twenty -five ? — A. Oh, gentlemen, T would say, use 
 your own judgment. 
 
 Q. But we want to hear what you think in the matter ? A. Well, in the first 
 place I would give actual fishermen the preference — then the older fishermen should 
 have the preference- we built the country up and taught the others how to catch fish ; 
 they should have the preference among the fishermen. 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Would it make the Vwats too numerous to give each of the fishermen a license .' 
 - -A. I think, sir, that it would Jiot be overdoing the thing if each fisherman who is a 
 fisherman should get a licen.'-e, and then give to thf fieezers and cannei\s, for certainly 
 they are a benefit to the country and we would not be gettnig what we are if they were 
 not here. No bartering of licen.ses should be allowed. 
 
 Q. In regard to the ofi'al, what do you know of its effects ? — A. I am positive it is 
 injurious in a sanitary way. We have to drink that water, and in the dark when we 
 take up a dip, we dif) up guts of fish, and that is a nice drink I can tell you. 
 (Laughter.) I have taken many a swallow of it to my sorrow. It is all very well foi' 
 people to say the cui rent takes the ofTal all out to sea, but when you come to take in 
 your nets and find fish-guts and muck of all kinds, and then when you come to wash your 
 net I can tell you it is not (juite eau de cologne. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Then you know that the entrails, &c., do get into your net 1 — A. I am 
 positi\e, because every fisherman knows that we are always picking out muck of all 
 sorts, then we have to boil our water before we can use it. 
 
imiTISH COLUMBIA KISIIEUY COMMISSION. 
 
 75 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong ; 
 Q. Wliorc do yoy live / A. Down at .Stfveston, when tisliiiig. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Hut do you think that what is daiij^erous to man is (hin<,'i'rous to tish ? A. Well, 
 we have an example i-ight over in Vancouvei'. There used to be a great number of 
 herring there, l»ut since an oil retinery was established then* and they w(>re allwwed to 
 run their offal into the water the heiring liave disappeared therefore, I think it hurts 
 the herring. It is l)elieved that the offal must do harm. In regard to trout, I think it 
 is very injurious to salmon, because the trout follows the salmon and often feeds upon 
 their eggs and then there is no better bite for a trout than a salmon head. The Indians 
 in many places get a little pole and put on a hook, and they will l)eat any London Hsh- 
 (Minan that ever threw a Hy. 
 
 Q. Do you think salmon themselves eat their own eggs? -A. T am almost positive 
 tiiey do not, and I think that is not a ooi-rect theory. 
 
 Q. Then you think the dej)ositing of offal is both injurious to man and to the Hsh ? 
 — A. I am positive it is injurious to the human fiimiiy, and am almost sui-e it is to Hsh, 
 and if I was betting I would bet ten to one it was, though of course it would increase 
 the expenses of the cannerymen to have to look after •' ., and I would not like to add to 
 them -they have enough to contend with already, but I think the (lovernment should 
 take up the nuitter and prevent it from going into the river, for no one wants to drink 
 salm(m guts, or if they do T am not one of them. 
 
 Q. You say you g(jt 10,000 Hsh -if you had not been at the "door" and had been 
 kept in the "room" as it were, more Hsh would have come in, would they not / — A. 
 Well, I don't know. The Hshermen would l)e too close and it would be a cause of much 
 contention and trouble. It is l)ad enough now - sometimes you might as well have your 
 net in your bed-room. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Then would you think it advisable, in the interest of the Hshermen, that certain 
 restrictions should be placed on Hshing at the mouth of the river ? — A. Oh, no ; I think 
 it does not stop Hsh from coming in. W'e are distributed away off — some three miles. 
 
 i-i. What do you think of the close season? — A. I think the way things have been 
 it is a g')od plan — it gives the cannerymen a chance, also the Hshermen and the Hsh. 
 
 Q. If the Hshing conunenced at 12 o'clock Sunday night, would you not have 
 enough Hsh for Monday ? A. Well, but who is to tell when the Hshermen will put out 
 under that arrangement, but now when all put out when the Hag drops at o'clock, it 
 is tjuite fair. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the annual close sea.son ? — A. 1 think we should fish all 
 the year round. Kach kind of Hsh has a ceitain time of coming in and Hsh are always 
 going up. There is one thing 1 would wish to speak about — the reason we want the 
 licenses is this. Now there are canneiies on this river the owners of which say " we can 
 do without you, ' " we don't want independent Hshermen,'' and if the canners are allowed 
 to have all the licenses they want it will ruin us and we will have to pack up and go to 
 .Alaska or elsewhere, and if the canners can get Japanese or Chinamen to Hsh for them, 
 why it takes the bread right out of our mouths. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong ; 
 
 y^. Chinamen don't Hsh but Japs do are there many of them employed ? A. Yes ; 
 English employs nothing else, 1 tliink, now. 
 
 Q. What are they paid, do you know / — A. About four cents a Hsh. 
 
 CJ. Do they w«trk in the cannery as well ,' A. No, sir, they only Hsh. They put 
 four men in a boat and pay them 4 cents a Hsh ; it is star\ation wages even for them, 
 l)ut they will stick to it like glue. The little Japs are most pensevering fellows. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Are there many Hshermen go out to Hsh at the mouth of the river ? -A. Yes ; 
 the majority of us white mei\ go out, though many contend that as many Hsh are caught 
 up the river as down at the mouth. 
 
18 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. How iiiany meshes deep is your net f — A. Soiiietiines thirty to ftn'ty meshes for 
 sockeyes, for spriiijj and cohoes we use deeper. 
 
 Q. The fish swim deeper? A. Ws ; tliey swim deeper. 
 
 Q. Do you tliink you keep muny fish out by putting your nels at the mouth of the 
 river, do you frighten tl:; »u off"?- A. No, sir ; the tisli have every opportunity to get up. 
 
 Q. Do you think thatti.sli finding net after net in their way would go away? — A. 
 Well, no ; myway tliat is not what they find at the mourh of the Fi-asei-, there is plenty 
 of room for them to pass up. Some years ago a hoat coming from China Mtruek a lot of 
 fish ."100 miles away which it was supposed had been stopped going into ihe Columbia 
 River, but there the nets are ever so much thicker, you could walk from oork-line to 
 cork -line. 
 
 Bij Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. This you say is at the mouth of the Columbia / A. Yes, sir ; othei-s here could 
 tell you the same and it is quite likely they would stop the fish to a very great extent. 
 It IF often supposed that the fish after tiying vainly to get in, get disgusted and go away, 
 and are thus deflected from their proper river. 
 
 Q. Yes ; it must have a bad effect in that way. Well, have you anything further 
 to say ? — A. No, sir ; I don't think I have anything further. 
 
 and 
 
 j)ast, 
 have 
 
 THOMAS SHEAVES, a native of Newfoundland, a fisherman, and resident of 
 New Westminster for five years, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 Q. Well, sir, have you any statement to present to us ? A. 
 
 have been fishing for 
 
 three years on tins river ; about eight njonths in each year. 
 
 Q. Had you a license? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why ? - A. Well, older fishermen were given the first chance. 
 
 Q. And you fished for other people? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. On shares ? — A. Yes ; in the spring of the year. 
 
 Q. What other way did you fish ? - A. Well, I bought my own net and fished on 
 shares for the license. 
 
 Q. What was the license fee ? A. 6"). 
 
 Q. You have been fishing for the canneries? -A. Yes, last year. T made an agree- 
 ment, but I had my own boat. 
 
 Q. The person you fished with had got a boat from the cannerymen ? — A. No ; he 
 got a license direct from the office. 
 
 Q. You want to get a license yourself? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, would you not want some one to help you ? — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Should thei-e l)e a limitation on the number of licenses issued oi the river ? — A. 
 No. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. If every fisherman had a license, would it not be necessary for them to hire a 
 man to help them ? — A. Yes ; but not necessary that that help should be a fisherman — 
 any one can pull a boat. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What about the licenses for the canneries ? A. I think they should be limited. 
 
 Q. Could you say what number would be necessary for an ordinary cannery ? — A. I 
 could not say. 
 
 Q. Well, what do you think about the disposal of this offal in the river, do you 
 think it injurious?- A. Well, I have been drinking water here for eight years and have 
 felt no injury. I do not think it injurious either to fish or man. 
 
 Q. Does it get in your net?— A. A very little. 
 
BRITISH COLUMHIA KISIIRRY COMMISSION. 
 
 77 
 
 Q. Whort' (Ki you HhIi ? - A. Near the lumitli of tin* river. 
 
 Q. How (ihout tho Suiuliiy close time -do you tiiink that correct ? — A. It suits luo 
 all I'iglit, aiul I think it correct as at present. 
 
 Q. Your principal complaint is, then, that you cannot get a license, though you 
 applied for one t- A. Yes, sir ; 1 think I should get one. 1 luive nothing further to say. 
 
 .JOHN STKVENS, a native of Greece, though now a Itritish sui>ject, a fisherman, 
 and resident of New Westminster since 1882, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 y. Well, sir, what is your special comi)laint ! — A. f have had a license foi- six years 
 past, but I want to see justice for the tishermen. The last three years the canneries 
 have had control and tishermen have had no rights at all. 
 
 Q. How do yt)U make that out ? — A. Because few tishermen are enabled to dispose 
 of tish, because the canners get all they want with their own licen.ses, and I think the 
 canners should get a less number of licenses and the tishermen more. 
 
 Q. Well, but how does that affect you if you have a license 1 — A. Well, my friends 
 have applied for licen.ses and could not get any, and i think they should be able to get 
 thera. The markets, freezers and salters have too many license.s and dont use them 
 themselves. If T get a license I use my own l)oat and licen.se, but these people are 
 different, they let out their license and l)uy tish at just what figures they like. ^Fr. 
 Port gave 3 cents a tish and then sold them to "Sir. Ewen -he didn't freeze any tish at 
 all. 
 
 Q. Have you any ideas as to the etiects of the offal ? - A. I think it has a bad effect 
 upon the health of people. 1 don't think there is a man upon the river who drinks 
 water that does not think it injurious. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is injurious to the passage of tish .' - A. Well, 1 think in .salt 
 water it stops them from coming in, for if you thiow a dead herring where herring are 
 the herring will go away. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Hufyinx : 
 
 Q. What is the ditfeienoe between fish that are dead or have died in great numbers 
 and the otfrl that is thrown in, both are ecjually bad, aie they not ? — A. Well, the only 
 thing I kn .v is that the water is bad — my wife had typhoid fever last year. 
 
 Q. Had you a doctor attending here ? — A. Yes; I had afterwards a doctor from 
 V^ancouver — you see at first there was no doctor near and it was four or five days befoi-e 
 T got one from Vancouver. 
 
 Q. Did he give any opinion as to the cause of the fever ? — A. Yes ; he said drink- 
 ing the water was the cause of it. 
 
 By Mr. ArmKtrouy : 
 Q. Where do you live 1 — ^A. I live on a scow. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do many fishermen live on scows? — A. Yes ; most of them live on scows on the 
 river. There are about fifteen or twenty scows near Ladner's Landing — here there are 
 twelve or fifteen. 
 
 Q. Do you not think that way of living is injurious to health I — A. T don't think so. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTUONfi. — Well, I wonder you are not all dead — living in that way and 
 drinking that water ! 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close season — the Sunday close time when fishing is 
 prohibited '( — A. I think it all right. I would rather commence on Monday morning 
 than on Sunday night. 
 
 :ii 
 
78 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 »' 
 
 Q. Hut you H(^e tho cunners say they want Hsh for Monday morning? A. Yes ; of 
 course, that is the reason. 
 
 Q. Do you ever jjet ofl'al in your net?- -A. Yes; I luive j,'ot lieads and guts and 
 tails in my net when tisiiing at Canoe Pas.s, })ut not when tisliing in the main river. I 
 have got sixty or a huiuhed lieads in one net many times. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any dead fish floating down the river?- A. Well, it is very 
 seldom — you .see them sometimes. 
 
 C^. Have you seen sockeye red going out of the river ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tn what season was that ? -A. In September. 
 
 Q. Have they done spawning then? -A. I have caught them with spawn in their 
 bodies at that time. 
 
 ii. Did they look as if they were hurt ? — A. No ; just red. 
 
 Q. What al)out the white salmon, have you caught them? A. I have caught 
 quite a lot in the month of August. 
 
 Q. What is done with them ? -A. Most tishermen salt them down or sell them to 
 the Indians — we cannot do much of anything with them. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Itiygiii8 : 
 
 Q. Are they not a better fish than the sockeye ? — A. Yes ; they are, but we can 
 get no market to speak of for them. 
 
 Hi) Mr. Wihtiot : 
 
 Q. Are any being caught now I - A. No, not now ; they are not caught in the 
 spring. 
 
 Q. When do you catch them ? —A. Generally in August. 
 
 Q. Yes; well, I think, sir, we have gone over most of the questions on our list — 
 have you anything further to say to us ? — A. No, sir, nothing further. 
 
 The Commission adjourned at 10.30 p.m., to meet on Monday, 22nd February, 1892, 
 at 10 a.m. 
 
 New Westminster, B.C., 22nd February, 1892. 
 
 Third Day's Session. 
 
 The Commission assembled in the Court-house at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present : — Mr. S. Wilmot, presiding ; Mr. Sheriff Armstrong, (Mr. Higgins had 
 left for Victoria the day previous) and Mr. C. F. Winter, secretary. 
 
 The Chairman called the Commission to order, and invited any person present 
 desi"ous of giving evidence U) come forward ; whereupon 
 
 DAVID MELVILLE, a native of Scotland, a fisherman and resident of New 
 Westminster for three years, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Have you anything to lay before the Commission or would you prefer that we 
 should ask you questions ? — A. Well, gentlemen, what I wanted to say was that I have 
 been three or four years in the country and have tried three or four times to get a. 
 licen.se but have never got one. 
 
 Q. What was the rea.son given you ? — A. I was told I could not get one, the licenses 
 were all given out, and that I was a new-comer. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any j)er.sons who have got licenses since you came to the 
 country ? — A. Yes, I know of parties who got licenses since I was refused and who came 
 in at the same time I did, 
 
 Q. What are the names ? — -A. George Harkness is one — (after a pause) I know of 
 no othei's. 
 
 C^ H. 
 
 (lid not aj) 
 
 q. w 
 
 he Lfot a lit 
 
 Q. W 
 
 ciimicries \ 
 
 ii. w 
 
 fiiiil tht^V p 
 
 Q. At 
 
 ■J() cents fo 
 
 C^ Or 
 
 year 1 got 
 
 wc got 20 ( 
 
 license. 
 
 Q. w 
 
 Q. Th 
 
 last vear, b 
 
 "C^. Do 
 
 l)i lite red ai 
 
 actual fishii 
 
 g. Ha 
 
 licenses but 
 
 Q. Wl 
 
 had ten am 
 
 while he wi 
 
 ii. Di( 
 
 Q. Wl 
 
 to the cann 
 
 Q. Do 
 
 fni/e fish t 
 
 Q. Wh 
 
 Q. Ho 
 
 Q. We 
 
 sockeve sail 
 
 Q. Wi 
 
 tishermen d 
 
 thcin two b 
 
 Q. To 
 
 siiv .")00 sail 
 
 Q. Bui 
 
 g. Ha 
 
 Japanese w 
 
 Q. In 
 
 g. An 
 
 g. Wt 
 
 g. Do 
 
 A. I don't 
 
 g. Tlu 
 
 tVdiii the G( 
 
 A. Yes, sir 
 
 Q. An 
 
 g. No 
 
 fiver ?— A. 
 
 g. Do 
 
 ri\ef. 
 
 g. Wl 
 
 11 ')ad effect 
 
lilUTISII COLUMBIA K[8IIBRY COMMISSION. 
 
 78 
 
 Q. He caiup into the ooiiutry uftor yon, «H(I lie? A. N(», at tli«' siiiiie tiiiii', but he 
 (lid not apply for a liconse until after I wum n'fusfcl. 
 
 i.1. What y«Mir was that? A. Tn 'DO. I applied in 'S'J and in '90, and in '91, and 
 he u'ot a licens*' aft«'r T made ap|)lication. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what furthor have you to say '/ A. There are lof* of n>en about the 
 tiinneries who have licenHcs i)ut don't Hsh them they woik in the <anneries. 
 
 i}. Who fishes under their licenses t A. They hire them out and are paid 1 "J cents, 
 and th«*y pay 8 cents to the persons hirin;( them tliat is for the tisli they catch. 
 
 (}. Are you .satislied that a man who has a license atid fishes it himself would )^et 
 L'O cents for his H.sh / A. Yes, he would. 
 
 Q. Or would two men Hshinf,' on shares -would they ju;et 20 cents ? A. Yes, last 
 vt'fir 1 ;;ot 20 cents. We <^ot 20 in .some places, at some places 1 "), and some places 12,^ — 
 we <;ot 20 cents from Ewen & C(»., and 12i from the .syndicate, but 1 had to l»uy my 
 license. 
 
 i}. What do you f^ive for a licen.se ? A. $20. 
 
 Q. Then you were actually as well »»ti" as if y<»u had a license of your own ! -A. Yes, 
 last year, but not the year bef<tre. 
 
 l^. Do you think it beneticial to fisln'rmen and the canneries that licenses should be 
 l)iirtered and soUl ? — A. No, I think that the meei who ;;et the licenses should do the 
 actual fishing, and be actual fishermen. 
 
 Q. Have you any other special complaint ? -A. Ye.s, about the freezers, who get 
 licenses but don't use them. 
 
 Q. What do they do with them ?- A. They sell them to the canneries. Mr. Port 
 had ten and he .sold them to the canneries he didn't fish them himself— he paid S cents 
 while he was getting 12 cents for the fish. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Port do any freezing last year? — A. Port is no freezer. 
 
 Q. What is his business, then ? A. He ships some fish fresh in the spring, and sells 
 to the canners in the summer. 
 
 Q. Does this matter you refei' to alx)ut not freezing fish refei- to last year ! -A. He 
 froze tish the year before last, but he threw them away. 
 
 Q. Why did he do that ? — A, Tney were not properly frozen. 
 
 Q. How many were thrown away ? -A. Some 500 or GOO. 
 
 Q. Were they all, too, fish that had been caught that .season ? A. Yes, they were 
 .sockeye salmon. 
 
 Q. With your knowledge of the freezing business, how many boats with ordinary 
 fishermen do you think it would take to supply that freezer? A. The way they u.se 
 thcni two boats would be too many, one boat would be enough. 
 
 Q. To supply a freezer of the magnitude of Mr. Port's ? - A. Well, a boat will catch 
 say oOO salmon. 
 
 Q. But the freezer'.s capacity might be 5,000? — A. Yes, but he has no freezer at all. 
 
 Q. Have you any other special remarks to make ? - A. Well, there are some 
 Japanese who have got licenses. 
 
 Q. Tn what year?— A. In '89, I think. 
 
 Q. Any since ?- -A. No, not to my knowledge. 
 
 y. Was this after you applied for lic(!nse ? — A. No, they got them the same year. 
 
 Q. Do you know these Japanese -had they worked in a cannery for a long time / — 
 .\. 1 don't know. 
 
 Q. Then it is a custtmi is it, which prevails considerably that people get licenses 
 t'i'oin the (government officer, but do not use them and sell them to others for profit? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And some are not fishermen at all? -A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. Now, as regards the ofial, what do you think of its effects from going into the 
 liver?- -A. I think it has a bad effect on other rivers. 
 
 (i. Do you know that the oflal all goes into the river? — A. Y'^es, it all goes into the 
 
 ri\ci'. 
 
 Q. What effect do you think that has as regards fish? — A. I think it must have 
 11 liad efiect on the fish. 
 
80 
 
 MARINE AND K[HIIRR(E8. 
 
 <.j. Alul what (>tT(>ct has it on i\u', human family I A. ft must \m as bod for man as 
 for th« tish. 
 
 (•i. Do you know of any (.'ast's of sickness rcsultin}^' from drinking; tlie river water / - 
 A. Yes, T do know of some. 
 
 (.^. What disease did the parties have, do you know? -A. Yes ; typhoid fever. 
 
 i-l. The persons haviiif,' tliis fever wert^ they immediate residents? A. Yes, tlu-y 
 were tishin;,' at the mouth of the river, 
 
 (.}. ^^'el•e thei'«f more than one case? A. \ know of one^ — he is n partner (»f mine. 
 
 i-i. Did he recover .' A. Yes. 
 
 (4- r)o you know of any others ? \ No, I have heard of others, hut T (l«»n t know. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. How do you know that (h-'nking the water was the cause ? - A. Well, it got the 
 l)hime of it anyway. 
 
 Bif Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Is there an inij)ression amongst the fishermen that the water causes sickness? 
 A. Yes, tiiat is tlie impression. 
 
 Q. Do you know of this ort'al being u.sed in any way upon the .soil — as manuie oi' 
 guano? A. It is used for oil down the river. 
 
 Q. How far down the river? — A. About nine miles down, 
 
 Q. How do they get the oHal ? A. It is taken there in scows, 
 
 Q. Is it an expensive method, do you think ? —A. No ; I think not. The .scow is 
 shoved uiuler the cannery, the ottal fulls in and then the steamer takes it away. 
 
 Q. Is this done largely cjr generally, do you know ? - A. Well, an addition to the 
 factory was made last year, and they are going to build another. 
 
 Q. Then the bu.siness is improving ? A. \\'s. 
 
 Q. Would that factory consume all the oft'al ? A. It would take but two canneries 
 to supply the pre.sent factory now. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Two to supply it all the time ? — A. Well, I don't know that it would — two 
 would supply it in the sockeye run. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How many scows were there employed in taking the offal from the canneries to 
 the factory ? — A. Six scows. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. How many barrels of oil were made last summer, can you tell us ? — ^A. No ; 1 
 don't know that. 
 
 Q. Do you know what disposition they made of the of!al from the oil factory? — A. 
 No ; I don't know. I never saw them throw it in the river. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Do you ever use it on the land ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. How many men are there engaged in this oil factory ? A, Three, 
 
 Q. And how many men are there engaged on the scows ? — A, There are two men 
 on the steam-boat ; they will manage the scows too, 
 
 Q. Are these scows and steani-boats kept occupied all day doing this work ? — A. 
 No ; just a short time each day. 
 
 Q. What distance was the farthest away cannery from the oil factory ? — ^A. About 
 one and a half to two miles. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 Q. Who empties the scows at the factory ? — A. The factory men do that. 
 
UKITI8II COLUMHI.A KI8UKRV COMMISSION 
 
 81 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 <}. What rlass ot' iiM'ii lutf tli»'s(* that art" ••ii),'ii>,'('tl oil tlu' MK^s .' A. Well, it is n 
 l''rt'iu'hmHii that has th«' t'artory down (lu'ic, aiul,lu> »'iii|>loys l^'rciich laltmii'. 
 
 <^. Have you any idea as to th«Mr waj^t's '. A. No ; \n\\ I tliink they yt-t aliuiit thf! 
 sinic as what tlsherniHn make. 
 
 (^. What do th«> rislu'nnJMi luako ? A. Itoatnit'ii yt't .*l' a d»y ; net t crs j,'f«t !?•_'. 'jr). 
 
 By Mr. .irmstrong • 
 
 <i. Art' tht'H many whitt^non cmployt'd in tisliinj,' ? A. * ih, altont 100 <»r L'OO 
 alto^a'thtT. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (}. Then the business you seek is to ij;et a lii-ense and llien hire ii man to help you, 
 is tluit it .' A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do the eannerit^s employ many wliite men? .\. Nw ; they ^'et Siwashe.i and 
 Klootfhies : inside it is squaws and Chimunen : oidyalKiut five <ir siv \v<iuld lie white ti."n 
 nut of alxmt 100 altogether. The most I have seen in a earn leiy is l'_'0 oi' i;?() ; [ was 
 one year in a eannery. 
 
 Q. How many white <ien do you say (Hit of this numher / .\. Six ; all the rest are 
 Chinamen and Kl(K)tohies. 
 
 il. Have you any idea (tf the daily pay of a s(|uaw oi- " Kloutchie," as ytiu call 
 them out there? — A. About ^\ a day. 
 
 Q. And what do the Chinamen get ? — A. Well, s»»nie are hired by contraet ; you 
 see a Ik)ss Chinamen takes a contract to put the lish up in the cans, and he employs 
 (ithers ; they get alK)ut 48 cents a case, or alnii r, 1 tvnt a can. 
 
 By Mr. Armstromj : 
 
 (,;. What lalKUir does this include? — A. Everytiiing : they make the cans, clean the 
 lisli, put them in the tins, put on the labels, and in fact do nearly all the inside work 
 connected with the fish. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do the Chinamen do the more important work with the retorts?— A. No; a 
 white man does that. 
 
 Q. The bosK Chinaman does not furnish the labels, does he ? A. No, 
 
 i}. Nor he does not furnish the boxes?- -A. No : but he puts them into the l)n,\es 
 iciidy ti> go away. 
 
 Q. What do you con.sider the average weight of the sockeye running in the river? 
 A. From six to eight pounds ; seven would, I think, be a gcwxl average. 
 
 Q. Have you seen the process of cutting up the tish in the canneries ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are the heads and tails cut off r A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many cans would a seven pound tish make? A. Alxiut live. 
 
 <}. Then the rest would be ottal ? A. Yes. 
 
 <^. During the season of a big run of tish will they make more cans to the tish or 
 less ? A. They will make less ; tliey then take more otF the head and tail. 
 
 (,}. When tish are scarcer they will make more cans and less of!'al then ? A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. 1 think you said the canneries ought to lia\e a certain numlier of lict'nses each ? 
 A. Yes. 
 Q. A small number? — A. Yes : about four or tive each. 
 
 (}. Yf)U think every hoiid fid'' tisherman who ajiplies should get a license? A. 
 Yes, if he does not hire it out -he ^.i ould tish himself. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Would you give licenses to all ? — A. Yes ; all Briti.sh subjects and residents of 
 the country. 
 lOc— 6 
 
82 
 
 MARINE AND FtSHERIES. 
 
 iB"' 
 
 No. 
 
 1 think the Hsli are all 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the ettects of saw-«lust in a river? -A. No ; I don't 
 see much of it T don't know much about that. 
 
 C^. There are «|uite a number of ejctensive mills neai' here, are there not? -A. Yes, 
 but they have burners ; they don't throw their saw-dust into the river. 
 
 Q. liut are there any small rivers ruiming into the Fraser on which saw-mills are? 
 - -A. T don't know. 
 
 ii- Then altogevlier you think t\\e cainiers should get four or live licenses and every 
 JJritisl) subject and fisherman should get one ? -Yes. 
 
 Q. What (K» you tliink about the close season for the presei'vation of tish ? A. T 
 think fishing could be done up to Saturday at noon, but tSunday should be kept as a day 
 of rest for the fisheinien ; we could start at 12 o'clock midnight. 
 
 Q. What about an annual close season — weie you a fishennan in Scotland? — A. 
 T was. 
 
 Q. Did you fish there on Sunday? A. No: not at all. 
 
 Q. There are no canning estal)lishments there though? A. 
 
 Q. Well, what do you think of an annual close season? A. 
 up by the time fishing is done here. 
 
 Q. Do you think t!.. fish are all up in October? ~ A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What is it they are fishing for then? — A. For colujes, but we don't count them. 
 
 Q. Have you seen many dead salmon floating down the river? — A. Not many — I 
 have seen some. 
 
 Q. What kind were they? A. I have never seen spring salmon -I have seen 
 sockeyes but not in very great numbers. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any going down from the beds? A. Oh, I have seen oi^e 
 or two, but not in great nund)ers. 
 
 (J. Have you seen any going down with spawn in them? — A. T have seen them in 
 August with spawn. 
 
 Q. Do you think they all die after spawning ? A. No : I have caught them at the 
 mouth of the river aftei- they have spawned. 
 
 Q. What state were they in then ? A. Lean, weak, emaciated fish. 
 
 Q. It is the same elsewhere. Take places in Scotland and you will see the same 
 thing after the spawning season ? A. Yes ; lots die on the spawning beds in England. 
 I have .seen hundreds going down in the spring of the year afterwards. 
 
 Q. I am asking these (piestions because the opinion prevails in this province that 
 tish all die, and my object is to endeavoui- to find out if this is correct, because I consider 
 it quite contrary to nature. Do you know anything about young fish, parrs and smolts ? 
 — A. I never heaid of them here — I have in the old country. 
 
 Q. What is a parr? A. A young salmon. 
 
 Q. And a .smolt and grilse ? A. Still larger salmon. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any parrs, smolts, or grilse coming down this river?- -A. 
 Well, the sockeye is the same as the grilse in the old country. 
 
 Q. W'hat as -in size and weight ? A. Yes ; in everything. 
 
 Q. Then grilse in Scotland weigh from six to seven pounds ? -A. Yes ; you get them 
 up to ten pounds. They are young salmon and the first may be coming up to spawn — 
 the next year they are salmon. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrony : 
 
 Q. Then the sockeye you think is the same species of salmon 1 A. Yes ; they look 
 the same salmon. I don't think there is any diH'erence between spring and sockeye salmon, 
 except one is larger than the other. 
 
 By Mr, Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And you tliink the sockeye the grilse oi- young of the lai'gei- salmon ? -A. Well, 
 it lo«)ks like it. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard in Scotland that the grilse are finer fish than the full- 
 grown .salmon of the same species ?- A. I have not heard that the meat is the same. 
 
 Q. If a three pound gi-iW what would it be ? — A. Well, it would not have reached 
 maturity. 
 
 sidmon 
 
 Q. 
 
 Q. 
 
 down ri 
 Q. 
 ir might 
 
 Q. 
 
 lie caug 
 many fis 
 
 Q. 
 tlio lart:< 
 
 tliein?- 
 
 Q. 
 
 A. No; 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISUERT COMMISSION. 
 
 83 
 
 Q. How do ydu distinguish j)aiTs from smolts ? A. Hy the spots on the body. 
 
 Q. And when bars cross the body tnmsversely, what do you call it then ? A. It is 
 salmon then, or rather a parr. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen these grilse here ? -A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are smolts found in Scotland at the mouths of rivers ? — A. Yes ; they work 
 down river and stay in the estuary awhile and then go to sea. 
 
 Q. Do you think this \\ould apply to this country if it was looked into? A. Yes : 
 it might. 
 
 Q. And if sniail-meshed seines were used at the mouths of rivers these fish would 
 lip caught and it would be very destructive, would it not? A. Yes, of course, if too 
 many fish were killed. • 
 
 Q. Then you have a sort of idea that the sockeye might be as the grilse is towards 
 tlio larger salmon ? - A. Well, it looks like that — it resembles the salmon anyway. 
 
 Q. Can you discern the male from the female in catching sockeye, before cleaning 
 liiem ? — A, Yes ; you can tell by the heads. 
 
 Q. The male's is more elongated ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any some distance up river when fai- advanced in spawning? 
 .\. So ; but they have a big hook on the nose which they have not when they come in 
 lirst. 
 
 Q. And this hook ; on which fish is it ? .\. On the male. 
 
 Q. Is the hook on when he is in ?- -A. No. 
 
 Q. Is there any remarkable difference takes place in the female from the time she 
 tomes in until she has spawned? A. No ; there is no change. 
 
 Q. In regard to the spring salmon, do the same appearances show on them ? — A. In 
 I lie fall of the year the male has a large hook on his jaw. 
 
 Q. Is it the .same in Scotland ? A. Yes ; it is the same all over. 
 
 Q. There is an identity between the salmon in both Scotland and the Fraser ? -A. 
 Yes. 
 
 Q. There is another fi.sh here, the steel-head, what are they? -A. Well, we have 
 some in Scotland - they are called bull trout they are in the Tay and Tweed. 
 
 Q. What distinguishing marks are theie between the ti'out and the salmon in 
 Scotland ? A. Well, they have straight tail, straight up and down — the salmon is forked 
 in the tail -the head is larger here in the steel-head. 
 
 Q. Do bull trout in Scotlaiul grow as large as salmon, and do steel-heads grow as large 
 lis salmon here? A. About the same. 
 
 Q. Then there is a great identity between tlie steel-head and the bull trout of 
 Scotland ?—^ A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, T must say sir, with very much pleasure, that your views as regards fish 
 imd fish-life are identical with those of the most learned persons everywhere on the 
 sul)ject. Now, with regard to the next run of fish after the sockeyes, you have what are 
 called humpbacks ; what do you think of them ? — A. Well, I don't know, I never saw 
 til em before. 
 
 i}. Why are they called " humpbacks " ? -A. Becau.se there is a hump on the male's 
 
 l)iick. 
 
 Q. Ts this hump seen on him at sea, as well as in tiie J'ivers ? — A. Yes ; I have caught 
 
 tliem so. 
 
 Q. Well, you nmst remember that Atlantic and Scottish salmon come in without a 
 liiidk on their snouts and that they afterwards get them -do you not think it possible 
 tliat the liumpback at sea may not have the hump on him, but when in the river it grows 
 uimii him and distinguishes the male from the female ? — A. Well, it might, but I cannot 
 siiy about that. 
 
 Q. What about the cohoe.s — they come later again, don't they ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; they 
 iu'c spotted something similai' to spring salmon, and are a good eating fisli when red 
 iiieated and fit for canning. 
 
 Q. Is it canned ? — A. No ; it is not needed because they get plenty of sockeyes — 
 'lilt if the sockeves are scarce they would can them. 
 
 10c— 6i 
 
84 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 m 
 
 m 
 
 Q. [f cohoes or liunipbacks are caught in the nets for catching sockeyes, wliat is done 
 with them? A. The cohoes are canned, but the humpbacks are given away to tlie 
 Siwashes. 
 
 Q. Then the spring sahnon which are first caught are all alike in ctjlour of n.eat, 
 are they?- A. Well, no; not altogether— some are white but not many. 
 
 Q. Are there more white than red in the after part of the season? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are these white and red salmon distinguished by any marks that you can toll 
 them by when taking them from the net ? — A. No ; you must cut them f)pen befoi-c 
 you know. 
 
 Q. Are numbers of white salmon thrown away ? -A. Yes; some are thrown away, 
 some are salted. , 
 
 Q. Are tht^ as good Hsh to eat as the red? A. 1 don't think so. 
 
 Q. Where do you tish at the mouth of the river oi' the upper part ? — A. In the 
 sockeye season T go down to the mouth of the river. 
 
 Q. Al)out Gurry Bush ? — A. Yes ; and away outside. 
 
 Q. How far outside? — A. Sometimes out to the lighthouse. 
 About four miles out ? A. Yes. 
 How wide is it across the i-iver from (lUrry Bush ? A. About three-tjuarters ut" 
 
 Q. 
 
 Q. 
 
 a mile. 
 
 Q. 
 
 g. 
 
 At what tide ? —A. 
 
 Does it get wider farther out ? 
 
 At low water. 
 A. 
 
 Yes ; .but about a quarter of a mile out the 
 water gets narrower. 
 
 Q. Tt is better fishing from Gurry Bush out ? — A. Oh well, all about there is about 
 the same. 
 
 Q. Are thefish congregated in the pass beytjud (iuiTy Bush?-- A. Yes ; atlow water. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. A nnstromj : 
 Q. You say you go out four miles ? A. Yes. 
 
 % Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 Q. AVhat is the object in going out there? A. Well, because the tish are easier 
 caught there. 
 
 Q. A\'oukl it not be as beneficial if the fish were allowed to come up ? — A. Well, it 
 would be, but you have to go out to get clear of the other fishermen. 
 
 Q. What mesh dftyou use fromGurry Bush out? -A. Forty and thirty meshesdeep, 
 
 Q. And in the liver farther up? A. Fifty and sixty meshes — the water is deeper 
 inside. 
 
 Q. With a thirty mesh net when being swept to get fish, will the lead lines nearly 
 touch bottom ? — A. Yes ; they very nearly touch the bottom. 
 
 Q. Then when fish are coming along, with 150 fathoms of net in length and thirty 
 meshes deep, it would sweep all along both top and bottom? -A. Yes; but there is 
 lots of room for the tish to get in for all that. 
 
 Q. But would not there be lots of other boats and would not the nets jdmost form 
 a fence across ?~ A. Yes; virtually they would. 
 
 Q. In your ex})erience and with youi- knowledge of netting, do you find the tish 
 strike the upper or the lower pai'ts of the net .' A. Oh, they strike it everywhere. The 
 most are caught alxtut the cetitre 
 
 Q. Then if a net was twenty meshes instead of thirty, more tish would escape, would 
 thev not?- A. Yes; for there would be no net to hold them — certainly more wctuld 
 escape, but when a fishermen is fishing he wants to catch tish. 
 
 Mk. AwMSTHONCi here showed witness a map of the mouth of the river and channel 
 and asked him if the channel was tilled up with nets? — A. No 
 
 % Mr. \Vi/>:wt : 
 
 Q. How many boats have you seen &t one time fishing out beyond (iurry lUisli 
 towards the lighthouse ? — A. Oh, about 300. 
 
 Q. The fishermen go there in preference because the fish are easier taken is tlwii 
 it ? — A. Well, n<» ; we go there to get cleai" of one an(jther. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 85 
 
 Q. i3ut is it not because you would catch inoie fish there than you would up the 
 ii\er? — A. T never fished up the river. 
 
 Q. What number (»f tish is your average catch a day ? - A. About 900 in a big run. 
 The average would be about 400 or 500, speaking generally. 
 
 Q. What would be your gross catcli in a season? — A. I have caught 12,000. 
 
 Q. What do you get each for them ? — A. Six cents ; the owner of the boatgets four 
 — ten cents in all for each salmon. 
 
 Q. Wha.t was the marketable value of the Hsh ? — A. Ten cents. Canners have 
 paid twenty — they paid twenty last year. 
 
 Q. Do you think the great number of nets at the mouth of the river would have 
 the tendency to prevent fish from making their regular migration up river? — A- Tf you 
 catch them there they cannot go on up the river, tliat is certain. 
 
 Q. Do you think a lot of boats and nets at the mouth of a river would tui'n fish away ? 
 — A. No, sir ; nothing would prevent the salmon from going up when he comes for that 
 pui'pose, except the catching of them. 
 
 ii. Do you ever get offal in your net down there? —A. Yes ; heads and tails — some- 
 times lots of them. 
 
 Q. What c(mdition would they be in would they have a nice tiavoui'? (Laughter.) 
 — A. (Laughing) Ves ; some of them were so. 
 
 C^. Do you get offal in considerable qnantities ? -A. Sometimes lots, and sometimes 
 we don't get any. 
 
 Q. Is offal injui'ious to a net for taking fish ? — A. I don't ki)ow. 
 
 Q. In Scottish rivers is not slime and refuse matter injurious ? — A. Slime is, but 
 11(1 ofi'al goes into the rivers there. 
 
 Q. Is not there slime here in the rivers? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then slime and otfal combined should be bad for the nets, should it not? -A. 
 Yes ; but the wa'ter is colder here. 
 
 Q. Do you paint your nets or colour them in any way ? -A. We bark them here ; 
 they are mostly tarred in Scotland. 
 
 Q. And what twine do you use?- -A. Oh, 840, about the same as in Scotland. 
 
 Q. Then the .salmon net is the same as in Scotland as far as the twine is con- 
 cerned ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And what mesh do you use?— A. Six inch mesh. 
 
 Q. And what in Scotland? A. Thi-ee and a half iov seine and six for drift net — 
 extension measure. 
 
 Q. You state that yt>u have caught salmon that have been spawned out ? — A. Yes ; 
 I caught them down the river. 
 
 Q. Are you sui'e they were spawned before you caught them ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. When? In August, in the latter part. 
 
 Q. You are quite suro they had spawned ? A. Yes ; quite sure. 
 
 That will do. I may state to you, sir, that though your views nuiy diH'er with 
 thdse of numy fishermen heie, still they agree with the views of the be.st authorities 
 ircneially as to the habits, .tc, of .salmon. 
 
 Mr. Peter Burrill here i-ose in the audience, and addi-essing the Chair, accused Mr. 
 W ilmot with putting questicms to witne,sses in such a. way as to elicit certain answers, 
 and pi'otested against the continuance of such a practice. He was called to ordei- by the 
 Chaiiiiian, who also directed the secretary to erase from his note-book tlie remarks made 
 by Mr. Buri'ill as they were offensive. 
 
 The Connuission adjourned at ll.oO a.m., to meet in the Courthouse. New West- 
 minster, at 1 i).ni. • 
 
 
86 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 22ml Febiimiy, 189-2. 
 
 The Coujuiisision usseiubled ni the Court-house, New Westniinstei', at 2 p,ni. jiiul 
 proceetled to business. 
 
 Present: — Mr. S. Wilmot, in the chair; Mr. Sheriff A i-mstrong, Mr. C. F. Winter, 
 secretary. 
 
 Dr. H. M. COOPER, of New Westminster, a medical practitioner and resident of 
 New Westminster foi- nine years, stated his desire to give evidence, and was dulyswoi-n. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 ii. Well, sir, we are prepared to hear your staten)ent?— A. 1 wisli to give some 
 evidence regarding the effects of this offal in the river. I have been requested by 
 parties interested to come and give evidence in this regard. The offal, I think, does not, 
 when thrown into running water or cold watei", have any eflfect upon the health of the 
 comnmnity along the river or watercourses, and it is by no means the cause of the 
 serious fevers which are along there, for they come from another source altogether and 
 not from decaying animal matter, but from the u}>pei' surface of the soil and 
 subst»il of the country — vegetable decomposition. Even the excieta fiom towns where 
 there are diseases is purified almost as soon as it reaches the river, that is a flowing river. 
 That is according to all the latest investigators on thesubject. The German investigation 
 on the subject found that what they called the pathyogenic ('/), germs that is the origins 
 of disease, when put into river water soon lost their power and disappeared, and they 
 also investigated in regard to the typhoid bacillus and the nijns viltria (?)— animal 
 matter — ant. found that although they were capable of development in stei'ile water, 
 they could be kept in that for some time, but disappeared i-ajudly on l)eingput into river 
 watei'. 
 
 Q. This is from other authorities, not youi" own, doctor? A. Yes, from Ci'oss — 
 " (ierman Commission for Investigation," andisthis: " It thus appears that the bacteria 
 of water alone, that is what belongs to all water, have certain power of their (jwn, 
 and that they will destroy outside organisms in running water in a given time.' 
 
 Q. That is, that water has til tendency to cleanse itself '?— Yes ; of anything that 
 may he brought into it -that is the function of running water. 1 know this for a fact 
 fiom my own e.xperience. Now take the Sustjuehanna River — we found in Plymouth 
 and Kingston and places where the water was kept in reservoirs, the people hail 
 fever, while in towns where the peoj)le took the water from the running river they 
 had no fever. 
 
 Q. But would the pollution lesulting from excreta be more injurious than that fioni 
 offal ? — A. Oh, yes ; for instance, take meat - it may be eaten in a partially decaying 
 state an<l yet not produce disease. Taking animal mattei' in itself does not ])roduce 
 disease. People eat maggots in cheese, and then many English people leave their game 
 until it is almost bitter before it is eaten. 
 
 Q. But would you, as a mediod man, rect)mniend that?— A. No. 
 
 i-i. Would you advise it ? — A. No ; l>ut it is a matter of taste. 
 
 Q. Is not me.at more healthy when sound than when decomposed ?~ A. Y'^es, and 
 fish is better. 
 
 . By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (.}. ^leat decomposed- is it not poisonous ? A. No; there may be poisons in the 
 meat, but the mere fact of decomposition does not make it poisonous. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. But does not its decomposing state draw to it such atmospheric j)ai-ts as would 
 create poisonous matter? A. Perhaps in the first stages of decomposition. There are 
 persons whom the finest land) will poison almost dead. 
 
BRITISU COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 87 
 
 Q. Small things iire compared with lai'ge, riff n-rmt larye with small. A ixKly of 
 water with decomposing mattei- put in would it he as healthy for man or beast?- A. 
 It' a running stream it would not he atfected. Tf in cold running water it would not 
 he affected. 
 
 Q. Hut any animal inhaling that water, (»r Hsh, inhales more or less putiid or 
 I lecom posing matter, vegetable or animal now would it not be affected? A. I do not 
 think that animals are affected in that way with it, because you wil) find them around 
 among the worst decomposition that we can have ; people who work among it have no 
 more diseases than other people butchers ai-e as a rule, a healthy class, and they have 
 Mu niijie sickness than people living in the cleanest habitations. Then you will find that 
 scavengers in the big cities are around among filth and yet seem to be very healthy. 
 
 (^. Then our sanitary needs are no use? A. AFany of them are not. 
 
 Q. But if the lir is contaminated it must be more or le.ss injurious? A. Yes, the 
 air; but decomposing matter in itself is not injurious or deleterious to health -as a 
 iiiattei- of fact vegetable life lives upon it. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that the higher orders of Hsh fre(|uent the more pure and limpid 
 water? — A. (Jh, yes. 
 
 Q. Salmon freijuent pure and limpid water? A. Yes; they do not frecpient any 
 stagnant or impure water. 
 
 Q. Then as salmon are a Hsh whose habits promjit it to always enter more pure or 
 limpid water than those waters that are contaminated, it must be more or less injur- 
 ious?- A. Yes ; if there are any poisonous or deleterious matters in there decomposing. 
 
 Q. But if any extraneou.s matters are thrown in, would it not affect them ? A. 
 Well, it would be food ff)r them. 
 
 Q. For the highei* orders or the lower? — A. Oh, for the lower. 
 
 Q. But if anything is put in this pure and limpid water, would it not affect the 
 <|Uality of the water? If even slightly injurious to Hsh nnist it not be injurious to the 
 liuman family, who ai-e of a still much higher order in the scale <tf life ? A. Well, we 
 dunt know in what way it would affect them. 
 
 (}. Then, sir, your ccjiiclusion from your own personal knowledge, whetlit>r the 
 depositing of offal into the Fraser Bi\er in such innnense rpiantities as it is s(>\eii or 
 eight million pounds j)er anitum tlo you think it injurious to animal life? A. F don t 
 tliink so. 
 
 Q. Do you think it beneHcial? A. No : Init T think it less injurious than it would 
 lie under any other circumstances. 
 
 <^. Taking a standard would you put it on the side of being more injurious or more 
 licneHcial? A. 1 don't think it has any effect in running water. 
 
 (^. But if the watei" is coming backwards and forwards, what then? .\. It is 
 jihvays in motion. 
 
 (^. But if lodgments are made along the shore what is the effect? A. If in warm 
 water, or in watei" that is standing, it might be injurious. 
 
 (}. A large portion of the rivei- in bays and sloughs would be water of that 
 ilescription, would it not ? A. Well, I dont think it would be injurious to the surrf»und- 
 ing country ; but if the people have to ilrink it, then it might be injuriiai.s. 
 
 Q. Then if persons are compelled to» drink the watei- it might be injurious?- A. 
 Yes ; in shallow water. 
 
 (,^. In regard to the occupation of Hshf^rmen whose residences are piincipally on 
 scows along shallow waters in drinking that water, they would come in contact with 
 what would be injurious, would they not? A. Well, mcjst of them have to Vte out on 
 tlie stream, but T find that these men do not suffer as much as thos(> on the land. 
 
 Q. Then the people «m land suffer more than the Hsheiinen, do they ? .\. Yes : but 
 it does not come from the watei- it is fi-om the soil and the suljsoil. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further you desire to state? A. No: nothing more than 
 iliat I was asked to give my opinion as to whether this offal going ii\ the river was 
 ileleterious or not. 
 
 Q. Very well ; have you any knowledge of the Ontario Department of Agriculture 
 
 would you think them a good authority ? A good authority in connection with an 
 
 "pinion as t(» the effects of this offal ? — A. Xot uidess they had a scientific investigation. 
 
88 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Hut if the Department of Agriculture lias certain inedical men would not that 
 make their authority good ? — A. Yea ; T think so. 
 
 Q. Have you read an article in the "Colonist " of last Saturday re;^ardiiig tish and 
 offal 'i — A. No ; I don't think T have. 
 
 ii. T will just read portions of it to you. Have you ever heard of Profe,ssor .1 anies ? 
 — A. Yes ; T have heard of him. 
 
 Q. Well, he was detailed to analyse certain portions of good salmon and herrings, 
 as well as the ott'al from these tish - all from the province of British Columbia. These 
 samples were .sent to him and he .seems to have devoted much time and attention to the 
 matter as he gives a long and apparently careful analysis of them. T will just i-ead his 
 conclusi(jns : 
 
 "Conclusion : From the consideration of the whole question, f am of the opinion 
 that the manufacture of the refuse into a fertilizer, is strongly to he reconnnended, 
 because : 
 
 1st. It will thus utilize a by-product that otherwise is a total loss. 
 
 'Jiul. It will prevent the water from becoming contaminatetl. 
 
 3rd. Its ])ro])er management must tend towards a more healthful suri'ounding. 
 
 4tli. Tts return to the soils of the farm will [)artly offset the waste of our cities by 
 se\^erage carried to tiie lakes and rivei-s. 
 
 otii. If properly handled it will pay well. 
 
 From the great importance of this f|uestion to the health of the conununity, the 
 welfare of the fishing industry, and the progress of agricultui-e, I have endeavoured to 
 reply at this length.' 
 
 Are the.se sound conclusions from a scientific man ? A. No, sir ; the scientific men of 
 France u.sed theirs as fertilizers —they tried it but their last instructions were to take 
 it t(» the sea. for if left on the land the decomposing matters and substances go into the 
 .soil. T think where people make a mistake is that it will make a good fertilizer, because 
 on land like we have here the innocent part will be left on the land, but the drainage, 
 it'c, will take the more dangerous parts away and cany it down to the rivers. 
 
 <.^. But if utilized by being manufactured into something, would it not prevent 
 waters from being contaminated into which it would otherwise be put'.' - A. Well, that 
 would depend uj)on the conditions of sewage, itc, for T consider it would be far more 
 injurious if left on the land than put in the watei'. 
 
 Q. But wouki it not tend to a more healthful suiiounding, if utilized? A. Well, 
 perhaps it would ; but I know in France they have ordered that it should not be so 
 utilized. 1 don't think it would have any effect on the health of the community, no 
 matter how much offal was thrown in. As to agriculture and fertilizers, T think the 
 experience in France is a good guide. 
 
 (}. Do you belong to the Board of Health of New VN'estminster I A. No, sir. 
 
 <^. Do 3'ou know that the Board of Health has petitioned about this.' A. Yes: 
 but we also have other things that have been petitioned again..!. 
 
 Q. Are they a good authority .^- A. Well, yes ; they ought to be. 
 
 C^. Would not a Crofter innnigration be useful to this country ? A. Yes ; T think so. 
 
 C^. Well, I .see that inducements have J)een offered for Crofters to come to this 
 country, and one of the inducements is that they can catch plenty of fish, and a com- 
 pany is being formed to utilize the offal. In this connection, if you will permit, I will 
 just read you a short extract from an article in the Victoria Daifi/ Tiini's, of the 21st 
 February, 1892. The ai-ticle touches upon the whole subject of the Crofter immigra- 
 tion scheme, and after explaining that the fish caught will be shipped in the cold 
 storage system, A'c, it goes on to .say : 
 
 " In addition to this it is understood the company will be prepared to cure fish by 
 a vaiiety of processes, e.xtract fish oils, and manufacture fertilizers, itc, from the offal. 
 So that all kinds of fish procurable v.ill be utilized and there shall be no waste. The 
 reader will at once perceive how the.se two branches of the scheme will work into each 
 other, and the whole tend to the development of the deep-sea fisheries of the ])rovince, 
 thus establishing a new industry, the possibilities of which aie as boundless as 'our 
 great sea farm.' "A. I don't object to that at all. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 89 
 
 Q. Well, with the altove, and the (tovei'iiineiit stating that the ofl'al of fish is 
 unhealthy and hurts the water, it surely shows a tendency to prevent its going into the 
 water ? — A. There are a number of inducements held out in that way and it might 
 induce parties to make m<»ney out of it, hut what f am contending is that animal 
 matter put in a river is not injurious, but if put on the soil then it becomes injurious, 
 and when the water sinks down on our soil there is tyj»hoid fever thei-e, but when it 
 rises such all goes away agaii». 
 
 Q. Then you do not agive with the views j)ut forth by Professor James, nor with 
 the Provincial authorities on the matter of the Crofters ? — A. No ; 1 think there are 
 several remarks made there for the interest of parties and made to suit them. 1 will 
 just read you a few exti'acts from " Keating, on the history of diseases." Dr. Cooper 
 then read several extracts from " Keating's History of Diseases," vol. I., p. 444, relative 
 to the origin of typhoid fever, the trai»smission of the typhus bacillus, »tc. 
 
 Q. Have you formed youi- views. Dr. Coopei", from those books or from your own 
 personal experience and knowledge? A. Oh, from niy own personal knowledge ; I only 
 used these books to show what they think in other countries. 
 
 y. Then you disagree with the authorities of the whole civilized woi-ld who are 
 trying to keep the rivers pure ? Have you any fuither evidence you wish to give ? - 
 A. No ; T simply wi.shed to say that I believe no disea.ses come from offal in rivers ; 
 however, T would say that there is one thing that will prevent tish going up a river 
 and that is saw-dust ; that will prevent them from going up right enough. 
 
 Q. You are aware that saw-du.st is thrown into the rivei" and that it is injurious? 
 — A. It is thrown in the inlet anil on the sound, and 1 am sure it hurts the tish ; T 
 think the fish dislike contact with it. 
 
 Q. And if it settles on the bottom it will prevent vegetal>le growth, will it not ? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you think it injurious ? -A. I am positive of that. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, is there anything further you would wish to urge? — A. No ; T think 
 I have stated what I wished to, namely, that I du not consider that the throwing of the 
 offal into the rivei" is injurious to health. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, sii-, that will do. 
 
 EDWARD BONFI ELD, a native of Ontaiio, and resident of New Westminster 
 for five years, and a fisherman, was duly sworn. He had also been a fisherman on Lake 
 Eiie, in Ontario. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what do you wish to state in connection with the Eraser Riser 
 tisli.erie.s, or any of the othei' fisheries of JJritish Columbia? — Well, I came here on the 
 recommendation of an immigration agent, and through the circulation of pamphlets 
 stating that fishermen we"e in great demand in this ])rovince. When I came here 1 
 found tl'?y were not at all in demand, in fact there was no demand. When I tried at 
 the canneries for employment they told nie they employed Siwashes. The next year 
 there was a limit put upon the number of licenses. T applied for a license but could 
 not get one. When I went to a cannery foi- a boat and net \ was told again, " We 
 intend to employ Siwashes this year and work at difierent schemes ; we intend to put a 
 double shift on and woik day and night ; we will employ men by days work this year." 
 The year before they had put most of the boats on a certain percentage of fish in pay- 
 ment, r managed to get employed by getting in that fall on an outside license. We 
 were given to understand when the.se licen.ses were given out to individual fishermen 
 that it was a sort of recompense for the rest of the licenses being given to the canners. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Tell what you know yourself ; we don't want what you understand. - A. Well, 
 we read iii the papers ab(»ut it. The following year after that T applied for a license 
 again. Ti»i.« is the fourth year T have applied, but so far have been unsuccessful. 
 
90 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Bij Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Huv«' other jHTsoiis who applied fiftei you got licenses?- A. They have. 
 Q. Do you know why ? A. Well, either they got them througli inHueiice or 
 friends. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTH()N'(i. There you g<» aguin— you don't know that, you "think." 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 <4>. Did any of these jieoph^ t<'II you why '! AVhy they got their licen.ses '\u 
 preference to you ? A. Xo. 
 
 (.^. You have been a Kshernuin, you say ? A. T have. 
 
 Q. How do you work ?- A. Here 1 have heen einj»loyed hy the day, on shares, 
 and in diff«'rent ways. 
 
 Q. A shaie as a ti.shing hoat was what ? A. One-half. 
 
 (,>. If you had a licen.se of youi' own would you have double ? — A. No; I would 
 have to give another nuin oiu^-half. 
 
 Q. What value do you get ff»r (ish what jter share ? -A. We g(tt ') cents each. 
 
 Q. AV'ho owned the license ? A. My i)artnei' owned the license : he was one of 
 those that api>lied since. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 t^. Do you think the canneries .should have a certain number of licenses each ? — 
 A. Not an exce.ssive number they have too much of a monojioly of the business 
 now. I don't .s(!e wiiy they:'.hou! 1 have any. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (.}. Why not ? — A. Because they can buy of the ti.shernien at reasonable rates. 
 
 (,). You say they havt^ .i n;onopoly now suppo.se the canners had no licenses 
 granted to them, could not the ti.shernien form a monopoly against the canners ? A. 
 No ; they have no other market for their tish they are obliged to sell to the 
 canneries. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : ■ 
 
 (,). Do yon think every fisherman who applied should get a license ? — A. No ; I 
 think that would be detrimental to the best interests of the river. 
 
 ii. How many do you think should bt; issued ? A. Well, the jjiusent number is 
 very good it is about as many as can be accommodated on the river without the 
 lisluMinen getting in each others way. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 i}. Then vou think five or six hundred (|uite ample for the capacity of the Fra.ser 
 Uiver / A. Yes. 
 
 (,►. 
 
 I)ecanie 
 
 tlie real 
 
 q. 
 
 to the t 
 
 Q. 
 
 hiiul, esj 
 
 g. 
 
 present 
 
 ii. 
 
 tisherme 
 
 (lay. 
 
 <i. 
 
 Q. 
 
 Q. 
 
 tliey are 
 
 q. 
 
 (}. 
 
 W.'ll, th 
 
 \cars. 
 
 <t>. 
 
 (.,). 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (j. How many (jualified white fishermen .ue there on tli«^ river?-- A. That! am 
 unable to say. 
 
 q. Do you think there are enough fishermen on the river now to do all the work 
 necessary? A. I don t think s<» at present. 
 
 q. Then how would the canneries be supj)lied if they got no licenses? A. There 
 are Indians and others ; but if the white men could not do the work for the canneries, 
 the balance of the licen.ses might go to the canners. 
 
 Q. Then you think, if licenses were given to all individual fishermen, the canneries 
 wttlild get abundance of fi.sh for their canneries ?- -A. i think so. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (.}. .\iid should it include all British subjects ? -A. Yes ; all JJritish subjects who 
 want them. 
 
liRinSH COLUMBIA KI8HERY COMMISSION. 
 
 1)1 
 
 Q. WInil is your cxptMit'iu't* or views with i'»';,'ui'(l to the offal lioiii;,' thrown into 
 the liver '( A. I tliink it injurious in ii way. 
 
 (.}. lu what way ? A. It floats down and injures the nets -in sonu^ loeaUties it is 
 very nasty for th«' people on some of the slouyhs. It is injurious in all other parts 
 when! I have been. I reinenilu'r at Port Hyerse a hirge fishery was carried on at 
 I/inj; Point and the offal was scattered over the land, with the result that an »'pideniic 
 hecame prevalent and popular opinion placed it on the ofl'al heinj^ thiown on the land as 
 the real cause. 
 
 Q. Have you fiuuul the water offensive for use >. A. Well, not in the river not 
 to the tast(\ 
 
 Q. What other injury, then ? A. In washini,' up on the shore and lyini,' on tin; 
 land, especially in the slouj^hs. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close season? A. [think the close season as at 
 present is of no use ; it is principally for the sockeye salmon that it is carried out. 
 
 i}. I mean the Sumlay close season? A. Oh, I think that very beneficial to both 
 lishtMiiieii and caiuu-rs, as it <,'ives them ivst and allows them to clean up for Mon- 
 day. 
 
 (}. What as to the fish ? A. It lets them ;;et up and is beneficial. 
 
 Q. What as to an antnuil close season? .\. It is of Ncry little use, in my opinion. 
 
 <.^. Are therun.s of fish in this river rejrular every year? No, they are not, thoui^h 
 they are moi'e ref];ular the last few years than they used to be. 
 
 Q. And do the runs seem better of lat»! years? A. ^'es, they seem to l)e. 
 
 Q. Can you j^ive any reason for that and tht^ j,'reater rej^ularity of the runs ?--A. 
 Well, there iiuiy be some natural cause for instance, high water comes up so(»n some 
 years. 
 
 Q. Do you think there has i)een any fvrtificial cause do you think tlu! hatchery 
 has been any benefit ? -A. Yes; it has been beneficial in other })laoes, why not here ? 
 
 Q. And do you think that more hatcheries should l)e started? A. Yes; I thiidx 
 it would be better to havii nutre. 
 
 (}. Where do you fish in the river? A. Oh, I fish in all ])arts. 
 
 Q. Where do you get the best luck ? A. Well, from the (Jurry lUish out is the 
 best fishinf,' place. The mouth of the river has generally been used because it allows 
 l)ctter scope for the fishermen's boats. 
 
 Q. Then do you think HOG boats enough to sustain the fishery? A. Yes; I think 
 so. If there were any more tlusy would be crowding each other. 
 
 (}. How many boats have you seen out beyond (Unry Hush? A. Oh, from two to 
 three hundred. 
 
 Q. Do you call the mouth of the river from (Jurry Bush down to Pelly Point? - 
 \. Well, T call the mouth of the liver outside of (lurry Point, including the sand Hats. 
 There are s(!veral channels and some are accounted very good. 
 
 Q. What effect would it have on the river above (Jurry Point up to New West- 
 minster if fishing were not so largely carried on outside of (Jurry Point? -A. I dont 
 tiiink it would make much difference. 
 
 Q. Don't you think more fish would come iii ? \. Well, more might come in, but 
 tlie boats would be .so crowded they would be in each (ttiiers way. 
 
 C^. But if inf)i"e fish come in would it not be beneficial ? Would it not be beneficial 
 to the river? -A. Well, yes, of course. 
 
 Q. What size of net do you use that is, how deep?- A. Thirty, forty and fifty 
 Mieshes. 
 
 ii. H(»w many fish a day do you catch as a rule say, during the last three years? 
 -A. Oh, four or five hundred would be about the average. 
 
 (J. About how long do tlie .sockeyes run ? — A. About six weeks. 
 
 Q. Then you catch about twelve oi- thirteen thousand in a season? A. No ; 1 never 
 caught as many as that. T nev»?r caught moie than seven, eight, or ten thousand in a 
 whole sea.son. Theie is one thing I would like to say, and that is, that 1 believe it 
 would be a very good thing if fislun-men wei-e allowed to catch sea trout. 
 
 Q. Are they n(»t allowed to catch them now T don't think trout fishing is for- 
 l)idden by t!ie law on the subject ? — A. Well, 1 never could get any information about it. 
 
92 MAHINK AND FIAHEKIKS. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT (rcferriiifit to'tlif Fishery lipyiilations foi" Hi-iti.sli Colunihiii).- Well, 
 h»M'<' lire the rej^ii lati«ns rej^afding trout Kshiiig I will ivad you wliat it says : 
 
 " Section 2. Trout Fisheries. No one shall tish for, catch or kill trout from the 1 Hth 
 October to lath March, hoth days inclusive, in each year: provided always that Indians 
 may, at any time, catch or kill trout for their own use, hut not for the purpose of salettr 
 trartic." 
 
 This would, however, I presume, be subject to the tii-st sectiftn of the regulations for 
 the province, for the t;apture uf these tish, for section one says ; 
 
 " Fishing by means of nets or other apparatus, without leases or licenses from the 
 Minister of Marine and Fisheries, is prohibited in all waters of IJritish fe'dhunbia." 
 — A. Hut I mean sea trout. They have the same habits as salmon. 
 
 t^. Well, Init these sea tiout, as you call them, are like the young salmon only 
 that the one remains in salt water while the other is in fresh water. Fishing is pro- 
 hibited from the loth October to the 15th jNlarch. Well, sir, is there anything further 
 you desire to state ?— A. No, sir, 1 think not. 
 
 .MrHI)OCH McLAUCHIjIN, a native of Scotland, a tisherman, and resident of 
 Mew Westminster for two years, was duly .sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (.}. T notice that a great many of you who come forward give in your occupation as 
 fishermen, but will not that be only for a short time ? — A. Well, if you have a license 
 you can make it last all the year round. T have been a fisherman all my life and was a 
 fisherman in Scotland before coming here. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to suggest upon the (juestions l)efoi'e thi.s Commission ? A. 
 Well, about these cannery licenses the licenses that were gi-anted last yeai* tt) new 
 canneries, but no fish were put up, while the licen.ses were used. 
 
 Q. Do you know the number of licen.se.s that wene used ? A. I don't know the num- 
 ber, but T know the canneries — Mr. Ewen's, Mr. Laidlaw's, Mr. Wadham's and Mi'. 
 English's, all new cannei-ies hust year, but they never canned a fish in any one of them - 
 two of them I don't think have the smoke-stack on them yet since the sockeye run was 
 over. 
 
 (^. These buildings —are they good, .sound, substantial buildings ? - A. No ; 1 doiit 
 think so— they were i)Ut up in my estimation simi)ly to get licenses. I have no doubt theie 
 would have been canning in Mr. Ewen's only that there was .so nuiny fish last year and 
 he put all liis up in his old i-annery. Also, the people who hold lice)"^es to salt and 
 freeze, they sell their fish to the canneries in the sockeye season -they use their licen.ses 
 in the spring fishing, but sell their fish to the canneries in the summer. We don't think 
 this is fair at all, because to a man with ten licenses it is worth 810,000 to lay .aside in 
 the house and do nothing else. 
 
 Q. Why do you not think it fair ? A. IJecause they get licenses and fishermen 
 cannot get licenses -we came to this country purposely to fish -we are real, actual fisher- 
 men, and yet we find we cannot get leave to fish — we certainly think it very unfaii\ 
 
 Q. What induced you to come to this country ?- A. Why there were pamphlets 
 distributed all around our place at home stating that this was a great countiy for fishing, 
 farming, itc. 
 
 Q. Have you tiied farming ? — A. No ; that is not in my line — fishing is my line. 
 T was brought uj) a fisherman. 
 
 Q. You have fished, though, here, have you? - A. Yes; for Mr. Ewen. 
 
 Q. Did he furnish you with boats and tackle? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What remuneration did you get per day or did you fish on shares ? — A. We 
 fished on shares. 
 
 C^. How much did you get? -A. Five cents. The .syndicate oidy ga\e 12 A, Wad- 
 liam gave IH and Mi-. Ewen gave 20. 
 
HRITISII OOI.UMHIA FIHIIERY COMMISSION. 
 
 98 
 
 A. From tlw !)tli ot' .Inly to tli«! clctsc nf tin' 
 
 Q. And you j{ot Hvo ? A. Yes ; of murse tlu- otlirr man in tlio l)OHt got Hvp, too. 
 i}. Then tlie price jtiiid whs lU cents a Hsli ? 
 
 ^y JWr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. And tlif! otht'i- 10 cents went for the hoat and net .' A. Yes. 
 i}. And do you think y4»u could do hettei- if you iiad a license would you not 
 have to get a boat and net? A. Oh, that does not mean so much. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 y. How many Hsii di<l you catch ,' A. 5,000. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. How long w« re you tisliing? 
 season on the 25th August. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot ; 
 
 Q. ■ Does the proprietor of the cannery board y<ai .' A. No; we board ourselves. 
 
 Q. Ha\e you formed any opinions as to the eH'ects o+' this offal -the effects of 
 throwing it in the river in such inunense quantities? A. Ye,s ; I think it injures the 
 tish and also the men fishing in the river. 
 
 Q. Why do you think it injures the tish? — A. Hecause the offal gets rotten and the 
 water cannot be pure. Tf it was slow water I don't think the salmon would come into 
 the river at all. 
 
 Q. What effect do you think it has upon man? — A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been affected ? A. Yes ; T have had tliarrh(ea thiough it. 
 
 Q. And you attributed it to the watei' / A. \'es ; because I nevei- had anything 
 iit all the mattei" with me until the sockeye season, and then I had to boil the water 
 l)efore using it. 
 
 Q. Does the offal affect the nets? A. Yes ; it rots them ton certain extent. 
 
 Q. How does it rot them ? ~ A. The slime and stuff' gets on the nets and rots them 
 and nuikes lots of labour for us in cleaning them. 
 
 Q. Does it affect the people living along the liver wIk) drink the water? — A. Well, 
 r cannot say thu —I only know about myself, though fever was prevalent all along. 
 
 Q. Does the offal lodge in the Vjays, sloughs, itc. ? A. Yes ; and when the tide goes 
 out the stench is frightful. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do you think the canneries ought to have any licenses ?- -A. No, 1 don't think 
 so canning tish is one industry, and catching them is another. 
 
 Q. Do you think every fisherman who applies should have a license ? - -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are there fishermen enough on the river to do all that is necessary ? — A. Yes, 
 (|uite enough give the licenses to the fishei-men and the canneries would be as well sup- 
 plied as they are now it would be more expensive though, I suppose, for the caiiners. 
 
 By Mr. Wilviot : 
 
 Q. In what way ? A. Well, the way they tish now they pay two Indians who fish 
 all day and then two others take the boat and fish all night and one gets $2.25 and the 
 iither f 2.50 in both shifts. 
 
 Q. Do you see many fish floating down the rivei" dead ? -A. Yes ; a great many of 
 them, principally sockeyes in the latter part of August. 
 
 Q, Are those fish that come down from the upper part of the river, or are they 
 injured in the river? — A. I think they are fish that have been injured in the net. Many 
 after getting in the net struggle and get out, but they are more or 'ess injured. 
 
 Q. Do you think all fish that come up the river to spawn j. .lie after spawning, or 
 do they return to the sea ? — A. Oh, they return to the sea. 
 
 Q. What evidence have you of that? — A. We have caught them down the river 
 after they have spawneil. 
 
U4 
 
 MAHINK AND KlHIIKItlEH. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 (}. NVliut tiiiir ill the yrurdo y<»ii cati'li tlu'iii ? A. In tin- latter piirt of AiiKii>*t. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. \Vli«'ii (Id ynii knock off Cisliiiij,' ? A. At the cixl of tlic sockcy*' hohsou, tlif "J'ttli 
 Au^'u.st. 
 
 if. 'I'lu'ii you cuniiot nay what (jiiantity <»f lisli tiiat liav<« liecii spont by spawninj,' 
 al)o\»' pass down the iiv«'r .' A. NN'cll, the next inoiitli you sp«' is «l«>se(l pndialily 
 (lu>y all pass down in that iiuinth. 
 
 l^. Then you think it an (M'l-or that all tisli that coiiir up di*> ? A. Some di« many 
 «if them — Init many return to the sea. 
 
 Q. You lisli with the usual depth of net / A. Yes ; hetween '.\0 and 10 meshes out- 
 side the river and from AO to (50 meshes inside. 
 
 Q. Is there any further matters you would like to represent to us? A. No, sir. 
 
 >[r. Wii.MoT.- Very well then that will do, sir, thank you. 
 
 Mr. Wli-.MOT. I may mention, Mr. Armstronji; and gentlemen, that it may Ih' con- 
 sidered on the part of outsiders and on the part also of others here, that it is useless to 
 ask the .same questions from all parties that come before us ; but the.se are the matters 
 at issue between the canners and the tishermen, and the department wishes to get all 
 the information jwissible that is the reason why I repeat the same <|uesti«(ns so oft«'n to 
 the (liHerent witnesses, it may be a matter that may cause parliamentary di.scussion 
 and therefore the (lovernment is an.xious to get all the informatitm j)ossible. 1 speak in 
 thi.'< way from my stand-point and vi»'w of the case, and I wish you will understand my 
 reasons for doing this. 
 
 Mr. AnMSTiif>\(i. Oil, yes; I tjuite understand - that's all right. 
 
 Mr. J. E. LOHJ), of New Westminster : 
 
 T would sa/ that this discrimination in licen.se fees bears very harshly on fisher- 
 men. \Vhy should we on the Fra.ser Uiver be called upcm to pay $'20, while only S') is 
 paid for a license on the Skeena and other rivers'? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. When we adjourn from here we will hear from the peo[)le on the 
 Skeena, I hope, and they may tell you very good reasons for paying only i^'). 
 
 Mr. LoKi).^ — But the tariH' should be general ; does it cost more to control the 
 fisliermen on the Fraser River ? 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. — In my experience it does, sir. 
 
 A[r. Lord.- Well, T may call your attention to the fact tliat if trouble aro.se on 
 the north-west coast it would take a man-of-war and hundreds of dollar.s, whereas you 
 could manage things on the Fra.ser with a couple of policemen. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstuono. — I object, Mr. Chairman, to this man addressing you in this way, 
 if he has nothing new ; he has spoken, and has been i)efore us previously, and if he has 
 no new points I think he should not be heard. 
 
 Mr. Lord. — Oh, w 11, I will sit down ; I merely wanted to show that I considered 
 there was an unjust dis rimination, that's all. 
 
 ^Ir. Wilmot. — Yt we cannot have pers<msaddre.s.sing remarks from the audienct. 
 
 JOHN PETP]RSC ', a native of Sweden, a fisherman, and resident of New- 
 Westminster for eleven ears, was sworn. 
 
 Bv Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what have you to state 1 — A. My trouble is I cannot get a license. 
 Q. Had you a license before 1 — Yes, I had a license before, but for three years now 
 I have been unable to get them. 
 
IIHITISII roMIMIilA KIHIIKRT COMMfHSION. 
 
 9B 
 
 i}. Whs Hiiy ri'iisoii yivni fur tliis.' A. \V«'II, I svcnl to tlic Skct'im IJivi-r, himI 
 when I cuiiii Itiii-k luM'c I miild not ^«>t one. 
 
 i.}., \V('i'«' you tolil that? A. Mr. Mowiit tohl nic all the lictMiscs wcrt- nut ar\(l 
 that I <!oul(l not ;;t't ont*. 
 
 i-i. Sintc that you liavf Immmi fisliinj,' in what way f A. Kishin<; for llic cannt'rit's 
 nil sliiir»'s. 
 
 (.}. In tht' saiiH' way as othris who hav»! hccn here.' A. Yt's, sii': alioiit the saiiic. 
 
 O. |)o vou think tliat all Hritish suljiftts of the muntrv wlio me tislifinu'ii 
 attually should p't a licon.se if tli«>y want it f A. V«'s ; in prtiffrcncf to all caniicrs, 
 tisli (U'alt'rs and frcc/crs. 
 
 (}. Why would you <l('l»ar canncrs and frt'czers . A. Rt'causc they could l»uy all 
 till' tish tht'v wanted from tii»! HshcnntMi without having licens«'s of tli;:" own. 
 
 if. Would tlu'y have to pay more for thcii' tish under these circuiiislances? A. 
 ^'es ; to .1 eertain extent they would. 
 
 (i. And you think the tisheruten would get more? -A. ^^•s ; they would get more. 
 
 (.}. .\nd the canners would have to pay more ? ,\. ^'es ; hecause they could not 
 hire Indians. 
 
 ii. Then you think on«' licen.se sutlieient for each tislierman ? \. Yes, sir : one 
 liojit, one man, one license. 
 
 C^. And the average number of tish taken Uy you would it corivspond with the 
 evidence you have heard just l)efore 400 fish to a boat, a day .' A. No, sir; my average 
 was less ; some years they are very numerous and somt! less. 
 
 Q. hut take an average ; .say the last three years? \. Oh. well, about .'lOU a day 
 tor the best [)art of th(^ season. 
 
 <^. You got for those 10 cents each ? A. Yes, sir: but t>nly one year out of three 
 ill the other years we got a little less. Twenty cents for salmon has only been this last 
 year. 
 
 (i. Well, )>• I'sous tishing alongside of you, what prices would they get .' A. Some 
 II' to 1") and I'O cents a tish. 
 
 Q. What did they i>ay for fish other years? .\. 1 have fished for "i cents and 
 furnished my own boat and net. Ten cents was the highest for years, and 20 cents is the 
 hi liest price known on this river. 
 
 Ill/ ^fr. Annxfrntif/: 
 
 Q. Then when tish were oidy 10 cents when two of you were fishing you would 
 , only get '2.V cents each ? -A. N'o : we got (5 cents — 3 cents apiece, and the canner got 4 
 
 (•puts. 
 
 Ill/ Mr. Wllniol : ■ 
 
 Q. What about the offal that is thrown in the river — do you think it injurious or 
 otherwi,se?— A. I think so — I think it hurts the tish and the water and is unhealthy. 
 
 (.^. What are your views as to the weekly close time .'- A. T think it good till six 
 o clock Sunday. 
 
 Q. How do y(»u view tliat from a moral standpoint? — A. Oh, I am not very reli- 
 gious myself 1 consider Sunday over at six o'clock in the evening. 
 
 t^. Some people think it over at daylight in the morning.' A. Oh, well, they pro- 
 liably have a night view of the question. 
 
 (^. Do you think the tish are increasing or decreasing? - A. 1 think them as good 
 as when I first came here. 
 
 Q. Do you think the hatchery has done any good ? A. Y'es ; \ think it has been 
 good. 
 
 (j. Have you been fishing at the mouth of the river? — ^A. Yes ; during the sockeye 
 run I have fished there. 
 
 l)oats 
 
 liy Ml'. AriiLStrony : 
 Q. It is the easiest place to catch fish, it is not ? — A. Well, there is more room for 
 
96 
 
 MAUINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Hy Mr. Wilniol : 
 
 Q. The ;u;r(>at inajority of the tisliiiig is done at tlie iiHuith i>t' the river (lurinj^ the 
 soekeye season, is it not? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you inad« any observations ref^ardinjt; tlic red an<l wliite sahnou? — A. 
 Yes, a little. 
 
 Q. Are bt)th used in the markets? -A. No; canners dont ust; the white at all, and 
 fish markets and free/ers will not take them, uidess they cannot help themselves. 
 
 Q. What is done with them ? A. Fishermen salt them a j^ood deal but some may 
 l)e thi'own away, f would suf^gest about the freezers — they are holding ten licenses 
 and they don't u.se them they sell their tish to the canneri'\s and don't put them in 
 their freezers. I can prove this, and T think if the licenses they absoi-b uere distributed 
 among the actual tisheinien it would be a great deal better. 
 
 Q. Then you consider it unfair that freezers should l)e given ten licenses and not 
 use them but sell them to the canneries? A. Yes, .sir, I do. 
 
 Q. Is thei-e anything further you would like to state? A. Xo, sir. 
 
 m 
 
 PETEli niliHELL, a native of Scotland, l)ut for tliirty-two years a resident of 
 IJritish Columbia, a salmon canncr and resident of New We.stminster, w.is duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, have you any statement you desire to make? A. Well, I would 
 rather answei i,ny (|uestions you may wish to ask. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, one of the most imi)ortant (juestions is this oftal (juestion what are 
 your views? A. Well, 1 believe that it is not deleteriousat all, neither to health, either 
 of tish or human life, so long as it is deposited in the channel of the river. 
 
 Q. Yim think it not injurious? A. From my observation T have not seen any ill 
 effects, and 1 believe it is thoroughly impracticable to do away with it without materi- 
 ally affecting the industry. 1 have tried in a small way to burn some of it and took a 
 days work in the cannery to make the trial, and tiie one day was very offensive, but I 
 did it with the object of using it as a fertilizer, but it was not good as a fertilizer — it 
 killed some of my trees. 
 
 Q. You think it not injurious if put into the watei', l)ut injurious if put on the 
 land ? — A. Yes ; without using proper judgment. 
 
 Q. Do you put up your views as against practical men and scientists of apj>roveil 
 worth? A. Well,! had some of that. So far as heads of Hsh are concerneil anil 
 the men who have oidy fi knowledge of tish oi» the east coast, they don't know much of 
 oui' fish t»ut here. 
 
 Q. Do you know it is a fact that oH'al is not allowed to go into tht; rivers in other 
 jtlaces ? -A. Weu, I di>n't know it as a fact, l)ut it is dift'ei-ent from out here. This is a 
 veiy large body of water and there is a strong current, and in the old countiy it is 
 thickly inhabited, and it is very dtsirable t() keep the water as pure as possible. As 
 peoj)le do here \ don't see where it has Ijeen offensive, except in the innnediate vicinity 
 of town. If there is no snitalde place where discharged, the cannery takes it to places 
 where the small fishes can feed on it. I am sure that the oflal does not get but a few 
 hundred feet from the cannery before all the ofFal is devoui-ed by these small fish, and 
 the heads and tails are devoured by the seals. ,\t my cannery, and, F believe, near all 
 the canneries, there are large nunibeis of sturgeon, and T know Indians go out with a 
 line and get any numbers of them. 
 
 Q. Do seals '!ome up t(» your cannery ?— A. Oli, yes ; the seals come right up th(» 
 river. 
 
 Q. To any e.vtent ? -A. Well, not as nuich here as in some rivers on the coast, and 
 they dispose of the larger offal - the heads and tails, because \ have never heard of any 
 heads being found down at the mouth of the rivei- from any of the canneries. 
 
 Q. Then you don't believe the evidence given by persons here that they have taken 
 heads and tails from their nets?- -A. I don't believe it to be true, e.xcept in some cases 
 where persons have been salting fish, and a good deal of offal is got in shallow water. 
 
HRlTISIt COLUMHIA JMSICERV Ct»MMISSION. 
 
 97 
 
 into tli(> cliaiiiicl 
 liiuuicls. 
 most of tliciii ai'<\ 
 
 it' the river, docs 
 
 (}. Vol! arc (Mi,<j;!iu;e«l ill t lie fanning Itusiiiess / A. I am enyaycd in tlie canning 
 liusiness. 
 
 (}. What eaiiiieiy .' A. The I'ritisli CNduinhia Packing Conijiany. 
 Q. One of the syiulicate? A. Yes. 
 
 <J. Of what capacitv is lliat cannci'v .' A. Well, I have put ii|) '_'(), 000 cases in one 
 season. 
 
 (,>. lUit the average, say for the !iist three years.' A. Aiioiit 1 5,000 eases. 'I'h.e 
 last tliree years, a little less than that. 
 
 (). Is you I's of the same cajiacily as others, e.\ce|ttiiig Mr. I'avimi's f A. ^'es, ex- 
 rc|)ling Mr. Mweiis. His is a little larger. .Mine is ahout as the otlu rs. 
 
 (}. Well, the tish that are caught daily ari' liroiight in the heads and tails are cut 
 oil iiow are thesi! disposed of I A. It has l)eei'. disposed of in this way. In the earlv 
 years of the canning industry we just let it run into the wjiter, and it was very deleteri- 
 ous when it liecame putrid and floated in to the sides of the rivi'r.hut this year we have 
 made arr.angeiiumts to dispose' of it in the channel of the river, and at my cannery, by 
 adopting this mode, no one had heen finnoyed from olVal from my jilace. The olVal useil 
 to Moat there, l)UL ! iiaxc made jjrovision for that, and no one can have ii word lo say 
 from orteiisiveness or on account of the ofT'al going there, for it does not interfere with 
 anyone. Of course, where I am situated, then- is no one hut myself anvwav. and it 
 was otleiisisc, only I made arrangeinents for disposing of it in this way. 
 
 <J. Your tish are caught, brought in and put in the cannery— their heads and tails 
 laitolland entrails taken out, and the offal sho\ed into the water/ .V. ^'e.s : hut we 
 have dee]) water. 
 
 Q. Then if the oti'al falls down it does not fal 
 it .' A. Well, where my cannery is there are two > 
 i}. Do not canneries stand on jiiles ? A. ^'es 
 Q. And are the piles numerous f A. Yes; tlun' are generally eight by ten, sufti- 
 cieiit to hold uji t.lie building. 
 
 <i. And the otVal is thrown down amongst these piles ? A. (leiierally, but tiiey are 
 making provisii.-n now to take it all into the current. Of course where there is no cur- 
 rent it piles up, but in the channel it goes right oH". 
 
 (^. Canyon run a hopper out from your buildings to the channel ' .\. \'es : in 
 most of them, 1 beli(!ve. 
 
 (}. And you think it would bi injurious in the shallow waters ami where it could 
 not get away, but if thrown in the channel it would not be injurious? A. tihiite so 1 
 think so from long observation and (experience. 
 
 (}. And do y(Ui build canneries in channels or deej) water ! A. We always like to 
 get them in a channel or deej> water becau.se steam-boats must load our tish. S:c., ami we 
 must have plenty of water for the boats to come alongside, iVc. 
 
 (^>. During past years have you conveyed the oflal in scows out to the deep water 
 (liannel, or allowed it to run into the river .' .\. This last year I have coiu'eyed it by 
 spouts and it was perfectly effective. 
 
 i}. Then the conclusion you eoine to is that ofTal is not injurious if put into the 
 channel, and it is injurious if in shallow water? A. Well, not to fish life I dont think 
 It is. because there are myriads of decompo.sed tish that come down the river F don't 
 tliiiii; it injuriiais to tish life or any life. 
 
 Q. lUit I su}i|)ose you know corporat«> boards in towns always consider it a 
 nuisance.' A. Well, I su|)pose so you know a cannery is not an can de cologne factory 
 (laughter), and amongst people it is not W(>11 liked. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (}. Do you think any di.s])ositioii could be made of that ofVal in any other way than 
 by putting it in the river .' A. None other you must jiut it in the river. 
 
 i). Do you not think it might be made into oil and fertilizers? A. Well, 1 have 
 examined into that thoroughly. Mr. Lawson and Mr. McDavin have a good deal of 
 money in an oil refinery at Vancouver, and have sunk a good deal of money getting all 
 modern appliames for pressing out oil and drying refuse of tish for fertilizers. I met 
 
 lOr^— 7 
 
98 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 11' 
 
 tlieiii ill New York Jiiul they asked me to iiivestiffiite tlie tliiiij;, uiul I tlid so as tar as I 
 eoukl. I made in(|uirv and j,'ot ac([uainted witli most ot" the oil faetoiies in Massachu- 
 setts. I told them conditions here ve>e very different, and told them I did not think 
 they could possihly make a success of it. I took some time and s})ent some days in 
 lookiiifi; up this dryiiiii process. There they use artificial heat tor dryini,' it, l)ut the 
 diH'erence is, this fertilizer hriiij,'s 8'?3 a ton in England- it can he cured to ship acrcss 
 to En^dand from the eastern sea-hoard, hut it is impossible to cure it hen^ to ship to 
 England — the shij) would have to he abandoned before it got to England. Tiie people 
 of thecomi)any even got the president, a Frenchman, to come out aiul I met him here 
 and he thought they ought to succeed in doing it, !»ut wlien they took into account the 
 diil'erence in climate and the distance to ship the i)ro(hict, they abandoned it. Then 
 Joe Spratt took hold of it and they s]u>nt several thousands of dollars in it, but it all 
 was given u]). Joe Spratt put a, good deal of money in it and he had to give it up, and 
 what was the result / ,\11 the refuse had to be dumped into the water, and all that had 
 the effect of poisoning the water at English Hay, and really I think that drove the 
 herrings out of the inlet I cannot say for certain, but I really believt^ that did ; — of 
 course lUirrards Inlet i.s a big diil'erence to this river. 
 
 (^). Do you know t]\v unfortunate way in which you cannei'Vinen stand by the law? 
 You know there is a law on the Statute-book of the Dominion that you are lial)le to fine 
 every time you throw oll'al into the ri\( !•. Now you know no (iovernmeiit, either Pro- 
 vincial or Dominion, has the right to say the law shall not be carried out. Now, any man 
 can go before a magistrate and complain of it and ha\eyou fined for it every time.' -.A. 
 Well, you would have to stoj) the industry. 1 quite understand that alumt the law, but 
 this industry is a \erv ini])ortant one and gives em])loyment to many personsoii this river. 
 
 (^>. Well, you should take some ste[)s to get this law repealed '. A. Well, we have 
 taken ste[)s, but the department has been very remiss in complying with the suggestions 
 we made — that is our opinion out here. 
 
 (,). AN'ell, 1 thiid\ the depaiihienl has been Ntry lenient as the law is. Here is the 
 p<jsition you are in. Any man whom you may oH'end can go and ha\(' you fined every day 
 you do it .'--A. Well, it is a fare a,bout the offal being an injury to the fish. 
 
 (}. \\'ell, l)Ut there is the law .'-- A. \\'e haxcbeen fighting to remedy the matter 
 and have sent a delegation to Ottawa to have laws formulated to suit the industry and 
 the welfare of all parties concerned. This delegation came back here and gave the 
 balance of people engaged in the industi'y gave us to undn stand that everything was 
 going to be put all fight, and that those gentlemen who conduct matters in the depart 
 nient were (piite in accord with them in their oi)inion, but when the rules came out they 
 were very diil'erent they were ridiculous, and in fact we could not carry on our business. 
 Then we went to our meml)ers and an Order in Council was passed rescinding it, and 
 then we i)Ut offal in thi livei' for our own comfort, and at a iiu'eting the other day we 
 agreed to make pro\ isioii to put it in deep water. 
 
 Q. Of course the CJoxernor in Council has |)ower to make rules and I'egulations in 
 reference to the fisheries, but the (iovernoi' in Council has no j)ower to rescind the Act. 
 They can make rules and regulations under the .\ct, and the Act says you may be 
 fined? A. AN'ell, if ^^r. AVilmot had remained here when the telegram from the 
 department came asking if it was convenient for him to come now, 1 was in Victoria. I 
 .said no, we could leave this thing till the fish were running and get Mr. Wilmot, for we 
 know Mr. Wilmot is (juite an authority on fish eastern fish and we could (lisabus(! his 
 mind on many points regarding our fish, but they wanted these rules made for the com 
 niencement of the fishing. 
 
 ATr. .\nMSTUON«i. -l)Ut, .Mr. JJirrell, this Commission is not here to carry out Mr. 
 Wihnot's views or my views we are here to go upon the evidence. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 ii. I believe I heard you say you have made arrangements to j)Ut the offal in ihc 
 deep part of the river why, did you not put it there before? A. Yes: we have imulc 
 arrangements to do it. 
 
 (^. Then you think it injurious otherwise?- A. I think it not injuriou.s to fi.sh life. 
 but it is offensive to people in the immediate vicinity. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION 
 
 99 
 
 Q. l)Ut tliis was iH'knowk'djinieut of canning )ioopie that oftal was offensive and 
 tliat l)y putting it out in tliei'iver you would overcome 1 1 uit offensiveness .' A. (Juiteso. 
 
 i.i. You say your establishment employs many people? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many are employed in your establishment / A. About ninety. 
 
 (,►. How many of the ninety aie actual settlers and hoti^liih' people of this i-ountiy 
 how many white men / A. Well, not niaiiy -about six or seven — sometimes more — 
 sometimes ten. 
 
 Q. And the rest are what? -A. Chinese and Indian women. 
 
 Q. Then do you think you employ the real /»<//(? //(Z^' peo))le of this country ? .\. 
 Yes ; we employ the lords of the soil, respectable Chilliwaks. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Now if half of the people were lespectable whitt> ])eople would it not be better 
 for the country? A. NVell, if we could get them. 
 
 <,►. You don't get them as long as you can get Indians and s(|uaws at K)wer prices ? 
 — A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 (J. You stated that offal going into some l»ay near here drove the herring away? -A. 
 Well, in English I'.ay the offal was the oilal of the oil factory not head-; and tails of 
 tish. 
 
 Q. Then you think there is a difference between that offal and the offal here.' .V. 
 I will tell you the factory was a failure. They tilled it full of this refuse and it spoilt 
 till them. They got unlimited numbei's of herrings jmd they pres.sed them for the oil 
 and the refuse was dumped in. I dontknow how manytnnes they tilled up their factory 
 and tried to make it into a fertilizer and failed. Then the lands here don't want any 
 tfilili/er the farmers would not u.se it. 
 
 <i. You j)Ut u]> in,UOO cases of tish, ])rincipally sockcyc what was the average 
 weight of these fish? A. Well, nearly eight-pounds, probai)ly a little less between 
 i-cven and eight. 
 
 Q. Then in going through the pntcess with an eight pouiul tish you would make 
 hiiw many can.s?— A. Well, they would average but little le.ss than five -four and a half 
 lo ti\f' cans 
 
 <^. Then three and a half pounds goes as offal .' .\. No: not so unu'h as that for 
 this account, because there is always mor(> tisii in a can than a pound- -generally an' 
 average of not less than eightetMi ounces. 
 
 ii. You put that in for shrinkage ?---A. No; not at all, but you take any can of 
 li-ii and you will find they go ovei' a pound, many twenty-one ounces then the can, 
 •Milder, and all, weighs threes and a quarter to three and a half ounces. 
 
 Q. Then do I undei'stand you to say the cannt rs put in upwards of GO.OOO piiunds 
 (iMMweight in packing 10,000 ca.ses? — A. AVell yes, I think, as a rule. They may not 
 a\(Magethat of coui'se we are very careful and always ilo our best to have the full 
 weight in. They don't all average that, some may l)e a fraction less in size or in depth, 
 but I think my cans as a rule will average an ounce or two more or le.ss (»ver the pound. 
 TliiMi some of course are short, but we try our best not to have any le.ss in the tins 
 because there is reclaniatiim then and a loss to the packei'. 
 
 i^. Then you give ()0,000 pounds overplus? — A. Well, about that. 
 
 Q. Have you ever thought of the ((uantity of offal thrown into the river from the 
 lanneries working on the river ? —A. Oh, of course it nnist bc^ very great. 
 
 Q. Between seven and eight million pounds of offal f .\. Well, I sup})ose it may 
 lie T never figured on that. 
 
 Q. You read a report that was published a report of an inspection of this river 
 i\v(( or three years ago, did you not.' -A. Well, I read some r(>port yes. 
 
 Q. If that report makes just exactly these figures you are now stating, it is pi-etty 
 nearly correct, is it not ? — A. 1 should think so, yes. 
 
 i.^. As I first concludetl from your remarks, you thiidv it is not injurious if thrown 
 into the channel of the river, but injurious or offensive if put in shallow water ?— A. 
 ( >ffensive ? Y'es, if allowed to remain near the banks where there is no current. 
 
 (.^. Would its offensiveness be so much as to cause miasmatic air ? - A. Well, it 
 would not be nice, I know. 
 
 lOc— 7i 
 
100 
 
 MAUINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 !|r-i; 
 
 i). Would it he a prtnentivc ti) some .i^ood, soiiiid, wlsolcsomc iiicii sfttliiiii 
 llit'ic .' A. Not ill near my cjiiinery. It would be unliabitahle, I believe, it" tlie refuse 
 of tlic (iiiineiy was buried witliiii half a mile from any eaniieiy. and as a matt(>r of fact 
 the oil factory at IJurrard inlet, it was so oU'ensive to the people there that the people 
 burned it burned the factory uj). I was through the town about a year before they 
 burned it up and the ofl'ensiveness was very great. 
 
 (}. Tf you were li\ iiig in the neighbourhood where sudi bad smells were created, 
 you would help in the same thing '. - A. NN Cll, I am not an iiiceiuliary. 
 
 (^). I>ut you would not like it .' A. No, T wiuikl not like it. 
 
 <i). You made some remarks as to the caniiers going to Ottawa. Are you aware 
 that suggestions were carried out at their instigation .' A. Ft was said so, 
 
 <J. ilave you read the reports of the department .' -A. Well, T vised tn, l)ut I 
 don't get them now. 
 
 (). \in\ think the rcjiort made in regard to olVal throw ii into the river by an nthccr 
 of the department was not correct .' A. Well, if the otiicer rejiorted it was ]iut in the 
 channel of tiie ri\'er it woukl not be deleterious to tish life or ofl'ensive to aiiyl;ody . I 
 concur in that, and 1 think so does everybody. 
 
 <i>. What aliout the limitation of nets? — A. Well. I. think it is necessary that 
 each cannery should lia\e I'o nets for the proper cfiiiduct of their liiisiness. Those 
 who liav(> a ea])acity for more and wish to do so can buy (ish from outside boats. 
 
 <.^>. You put the canners on the same basis, but if one has an excess in caj)acity he 
 could get from outside boats .' A. Yes. 
 
 <i). What about tislierineii .' .\. (ii\'e them a net and lii'cnse each. 
 
 (.(>. As many as applied tor them '. A. No, I am ditl'erent from some of the can- 
 nerynien in that regard ! belie\t' it woukl lie well to fix a limit. 1 believe that is 
 very desirable to encourage men who follow fishing at pre.sent on the river they do 
 nothing el.se and make their living on the river. These men are vei'v useful in 
 supplying the markets with fresh tish which it does not pay the cannei's to ])ut up. 
 These men, if there is no protection, the result will be they dont make much out of 
 the spring ti.'-'iing, they make very little over net and boat, I'irc., but they dejiend 
 almost entirely upon the j)rices they get during the sockeye run the result will 
 be, if everybody goes into the river, ex'en if they get I') cents, they will lune to 
 abaiulon the fishing, because they cannot make enough to keep them at that business 
 all the year round. The trouble is, that there are many foreign tishermen during the 
 sockeye run and if they come in the lisli will cost too much, and few l)y each man will 
 be caught. 
 
 «i>. How many licenses should your cannery get .' A. Twenty-tive. 
 
 (^. You wain all the rest of the canneries to get tw<Mity-ti\e .' A. Yes; I think 
 all should get twenty-tive. 
 
 t^. A\'liat chance would ordinary tishermen liaxc if all the canneries on the riNcr 
 got twenty-tive each .' A. Well, there would be enough outside tishermen to supjily 
 the local demand. 
 
 (}. Then you think the local demand enough for outside tishermen .' A. There 
 would be little, if any, work for them from the cannery. 
 
 <i). Tn an abundant sea.son how many l)oat.s would sujiply your cannery with 
 ]"),U00 cases .' A. Oh, that would altogether depend u})on the abundance of tish. 
 
 (j|. Yes; but on an average? A. 1 think twenty-'ive on an average. 
 
 Q. I''ifteen woukl not suj>ply you at all ! A. Oh, no. 
 
 g. Would twenty-tive fully'.' A. Ye.s. 
 
 <J. Then if the eannerymen had twenty-tive boats there woukl lie no work for out 
 side tisheiiiien at all.' A. Not at al! : some canneries some years ago used the products 
 <jf double that number. 
 
 <.^. Well, l)ut 1 am putting you all down at twenty-tive ; would not the rt;sult be 
 no chance for outside tishermen to sell tish f A. No; it would not be the result, 
 because if I engage outside tisiiermen it is customary for outside men to make 
 arrangements to take fish beforeliand. 
 
 (-J. Yes; if the canneries had not enough boats of their own? — A. Oli, no. K.xeuse 
 me on one occasion T gave nine men a contract to supply n\e with tish. Well, tish 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA KISMERY COMMISSION'. 
 
 101 
 
 cuiu' in very alnindaut that year — \ took tin- fisli fmni tlioso nine boats I iicvoi' 
 ict'usfd UUP, and because T tjot uini'c tisli tliaii T could handle I withdrew niv own luiats. 
 
 \.\e to 
 ■iiness 
 i.ii- the 
 n will 
 
 think 
 i'i\er 
 
 ■^"I'p'y 
 
 There 
 with 
 
 r out 
 
 tducts 
 
 ult lie 
 
 •esull. 
 
 make 
 
 ixcuse 
 
 1, tish 
 
 /lij Mr. A I'liixl roiuj : 
 
 (}. Was not the reason because you had a contract '. A. Ves. 
 
 C^). Would it not be different it' there was no contract ( — A. Well, I have always 
 ilniie this, even if 1 had outside boats I have always takeji a fair share of tish fi'oin 
 them. 
 
 Q. Would you give a fair number of licenses to fi'eezers oi' salters? A. Well, 
 it is not for me to say that. It is my o]iinioii that thesi; so-called freezers are not 
 iVeezers at all : they are the same as outside fishermen. These can <fet ten liceu.ses 
 racli, and they speculate with tiiem. 
 
 I). Would you ,i^i\e them more than one license .' A. These men who have a 
 trade in fresh tish t(j be put up in broken ice, these men ought to haxc licenses, but ten 
 is an excess more than they use. Mr. N'ieinia follows that business entirely : I think 
 lie ought to ha\e three or four lice-nses ; F think that would be (|uite sutlicii-nt. The 
 iither places are the same. 
 
 (,|. The freezei's you think are about froze out .' .\. .\re about froze out. 
 (Laughter.) 
 
 (}. Do you think curtailing the number of licensees to be i.ssiied on the ri\er puts a 
 innmiercial value on them? A. Wliich? 
 
 Q. On the licen.ses nifire than what would be if e\-ery lisherman who applied got 
 a Hcense .' A. 1 don't clearly understand you. 
 
 (}. Does it not make them more valuable? For instance, we have it here that 
 a- high as AoO has been paid for licenses; after the canneries got tiieir number only 
 a few were Ij'ft, and conse(iuently they brought as high as !?.")() >— A. Well, T should say 
 I hat would establish a commercial value, if it is sure they were sold for that price. 
 
 (.,>. Well, do you think it would be any injury to the tisheries generally if every 
 biitish subject got a license ? -A. ^\'ell, f think it would be injurious to the canmM'y 
 |)cnple 'oecause so tew tish wouiil be i-aught in the l)oats it would not pay them, and 
 I lie sanu' for the single fishermen, because few tish would he caught each. 
 
 Q. lUit would it be injurious to the tisheries interest if every British subject 
 ^(pt a license who paid for it ? A. Well, I really think it would not ; I am not prepared 
 1(1 give an opinion, but i don't think it would. 
 
 /!>/ Mr. Wihnut : 
 
 (). You say that with twenty boats you have takt'ii 10,000 cases.' A. No: I 
 iliiiit say that ; 1 had twenty licenses, but I might have twenty outsiders as well. 
 
 Q. Still, twenty boats have produced for you lo.OOO cases : well, there are twenty- 
 iwo canneries on the river multiply 15,000 by '22 aiul we get ;?;}0,()00 cases with 
 iwfuty-two canneries. Now, ;{80, 000 cases are greater than you had on the Fraser iiiver? 
 - .\. Ikit there are canneries that have not operated yet. 
 
 Q. Yes; but we are not putting them in; only the twenty-two who operated. 
 Now, if you get twenty-five boats it will give you 41'-', 500 ca.ses : tlie con.se(|uence would 
 1m' you almost double the catch you have had any tune : now, would you buy a single 
 lisli from outside fishermen ? A Well, but you are taking the supjto.sition that there 
 will be a good year every year. 
 
 <(). 1 take your own average. A. Well, but these last couple of years have been 
 t'aii'ly good. 
 
 (,). Well, according to your own statement, in 18'JO you had 115, lit) cases (report 
 r.oard of Trade, 1890, p. 5l'). Now, if you had twenty-five bouts you would liavc your 
 factory filled with as many cases as you had any of these years : now, would you emj)loy 
 an outside boat? A. Of course we would ; we have to arrange befiu'e the fishing com- 
 mences, and if fish are not abuiulant we don't get tish enough to keep us going, then we 
 la\ otV our own boats. 
 
102 
 
 MABINB AND FISHElllKS. 
 
 It seems there has been unfaii' imiuence Itruiii'lit to bear 1)V 
 
 Q. And witli twenty-two canneries ytiu wouUl employ \:V2 wliite men, and all the 
 rest would lie Siwashes and Chinamen, and not a single white man to run your 
 canneries.' — A. ( )h, but there are a great many men employed outside (»t' direct work 
 in the canneries. There is coal and wood to be got, A'c. 
 
 i}. Ikit I put this because we have had extravagant i'e(|uests from tisliermen hert- 
 wh<i wanted to get all the licenses, and now you say the fishermen should not ha\e 
 licenses? — A. Xo ; I dout .say that. 
 
 <^). Well, that is the Knglish of it. — A. No ; e.vcuse me. 
 
 Q. r>ut if you have twenty-tive ijoats it is more than you want .' A. No; it i^ 
 not more than T want, because if tliere is ])lenty of tish T will have to withdraw my 
 own boats. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong ; 
 
 l}. Hut we have before us that it takes 8;"),0UU to l)uild a cannery, and you get 
 Sl'-"),OOU gain by not employing outside licenses.- A. it is not the case. 
 
 ^fr. Wii.MoT. — Peihaps you should not make these remarks a.s yet, liut we get so 
 coiiHicting statements. Here we .see where good men come to the counti'V and then 
 they cannot get a license to tish. 
 
 Bij Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (}. Aiul hei'e is a man who gets ten licenses and lets them out and walks around 
 town with his hands in his pockets anil a good fisherman cannot get a license to tish. 
 Now, don't you think that should be regulated >. — A. Yes, certainly, and time and time 
 again 1 have urged it that fivezers have got an undue pi'o))ortion of licenses. I acted 
 foi' secretary of the board fourteen years ago, aiul 1 know that*. 
 
 (.}. J)o you know of any influence bi-ought to bear by those people to gi't licenses ' 
 — A. No: I dont know: I have heard, but 1 really cannot .say. 
 
 ]Mr. AinisTHONt:. 
 someone oi somebody 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 <t>. And in taking down this evidence it would be wi-ong foi' us to do so, that either 
 canntM's or Hshermen shall have all the licenses, so we have t(j take l)0tli sides. 1 think 
 that the cannerymen should lia\e a sufficient number of licenses to enal.'le them to 
 inde}iendently carry on their business witlmiit Ix'ing oxci'iiin by the fishermen, but I 
 also think the fishermen who are good men should not be debarred from their fi.shing too. 
 A.- — Well, those ai'e my .sentiments ; l)ut I wish to say a word or two about the way 
 ^Ir. AN'ilmot has l>een taking e\idence and jtutfing (]uestions. Some of the men avIki 
 have gi\en evidence ai'e Ncry good men and have been on the ri^"er some time, others 
 have not: but the way the (jue.stions were put was particularly to bring out the views 
 of these men from an eastern staiuljuiint. We think highly of your views on eastern 
 matters, but we don't think nmch of them on points here. 
 
 <i>. Well, r think when intelligent men come forward, I ask (|Uestions as I think 
 corri^ct .' A. Rut 1 think you should not eulogi/e men who<-ome forward. It has this 
 tendency : it elicited and got evidenje from men who have Ijttle or no experience, 
 There are some here who had, but most of these men tpiite agree with you about tlir 
 habits and methods of the fish, but these men have had no exjierience hero. 
 
 Q. lUit you had e\]>erience in tScotland, had you not '. A. Well, perha}>s ; l)ut tlierf 
 are men who have given evidence hei-e who cannot tell the familiar dog-fish fiom a sock 
 eye. It will have this effect J don't think they <lo it intentionally. It has this effect : 
 here is the pi'eponderance of evidence establishing matters which we know to be erroneous, 
 and it will militate against this industi-y. 
 
 <,|. lUit 1 am simply endeavouring to gain kiu)wledgt'. There was a time, year-- 
 ago, when jjcople didn't believe electricity could dri\e a cai", but knowledge has brcjughi 
 it out .' ~.\. Yes : I know that. 
 
 Mr. Aini.sTKoNt;. Well, but if we allow you the same privilege to rebut tlii- 
 (evidence, you cannot complain you can put in any evidence to disprove what has been 
 .said you should not comi)lain if we allow you to do that. 
 
BKHiHRva 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISIIEBV COMMISSION. 
 
 103 
 
 A'.// Mi: WiliiH,t : 
 
 Q. AVl)iit do you siiy iil)out tlic tlost^ sfasun ? A. Tlif jtit'sciit close st.'asoii is concct, 
 tor this iH'fison : it" you stop the boats troiii .yoinn out at oclock on Sunday, it will In- 
 iiupractifablc to carry it out. As soitn as it ,i(cts dai'k all hands will ;,'o out into the 
 I'ivei', especially the sin<j;le men ovei- and aliove all that, we want a supply of Hsh for 
 Monday. Generally, there are only thirty days tishini,', and numy of these days we are 
 .short of tisii anyway. 
 
 Q. But, if nine-tenths of the population think tlie Sal)l)ath should he kept, it does 
 not follow that one-tenth should make a protitable business out of it. However, you 
 think the Sunday close time liifht now .' - .\. Yes. 
 
 /iy Mi: AriiistniiKj : 
 
 (}. I'ut what do you thiidv of a change from I 'J o'(.'lock Saturday to H o'cjnck 
 ^londay morning ^ A. Well, you see we would not be able to get away with tlie tish, 
 and would have to work on Sunday to put tish up. 
 
 U. Do vou work at niyht .' A. Not if we can avoid it. 
 
 (}. Do you think it would 1)0 too long close timi' fr(jm (1 oclock Saturday morning 
 to (') o'clock Monday morning.' A. Too long a close time? I think so. I would oi)ject 
 to that for this i-eason : tlu> run only lasts for si.\ weeks, and there are oidy twelve days 
 when there is any (piantity of tish, and in a good yeai' we are fully handed oidy in ten 
 or twelve day.s, and the result would be we would not be able to get up enough tish to 
 I'ccoup uc, and as soon as fish cease to run, then it does not pay to put them uj). 
 
 Q. Would you make a division on Saturday say i) oi'lock .' -A. Xo, I think not — 
 for to be able to do a days fishing we must start early in the morning -if an unlimited 
 numbei- of nets all right, but we cannot get them. 
 
 By Mi: Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Why not start at daylight Monday morning.' -A. We want fish to work at on 
 3londay- all people, tiades people and any with inter.set in ]>iitish Columbia, with the 
 e.\ceptioii of Missionaries, will back the cannerymen up in that I'espect. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. We have too many fishermen who dont agree witli you. A. Such as they 
 were - new-timers and come from Scot^'uxl and have been fishing here oidy a few years. 
 These men may change theii' mind in a few years, especially if they ha\-e any money 
 in business. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (,). Proprietors of canneries are generally \ery well ort' and can go to church if they 
 like, while fishermen cannot as his bread and butter deiiends uj>t)n it. .V. \N'ell, no 
 canner will object to a man going to church he is not working in the afternoon — you 
 see there is a close time fi'om (> o'clock on Saturday nu.riiing up to o'l-lock on Sunday 
 afternoon, and surely that is a long time. I>ut there is a bad elFect in the way you 
 ask (pu'stions. 
 
 <}. What aliout the annual close season .' A. < >f course, I i)elie\e in that, l)ecause 
 there is no fish to l)e had. 
 
 t^). Very generous 1 Can you account for largei- runs than usual the last few years'? 
 Do you give credit to the .se:isoii or to any artificial aid at all '. A. 1 give the cr(>dit to 
 the season it is a matter of chant'c.more than anything else. F give i-redit, of coui'se, to 
 the hatchery, but since the hatchery was established it has been of very little use. 
 ow ing to the remissness of the department in not sup[ilying the inspector hei'c with 
 sufficient labi>ur to look after it properly, and one of the I'casons it was asked for \\ 
 or 15 veai's ago, was to allow people who put theii' money in this industi'v to find out 
 about the salmon in the river, and of c(.»urse. wiien established it was established under 
 the rules of the de))artment, under a paid officer, but this officer has been left without 
 knowing what he was to do — th.ey did not alhiw him to emj)loy hands until it was too 
 late in the season. He had no opportunity to get spawn ofi' the healthy fish. 
 
104 
 
 MAR\NE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 llit'V arc lipf .' A. I think 
 ^^'s, it' ]>i'c)ju'i'ly (Miiuluctt'd, 
 
 Q. Tlioif is IK) scitsoii ill wliirli (lie liiitcliei'V was not tilled to nxt'r-tldwiii;^ with 
 <';rj,'s (it tisli. Tilt' rt'iini'ts fniiii various urticfis arc that it was tilled too t'ull with eggs? — 
 A. Vcs, I believe that, but (lllcd tVoni fisii not in the best condition. 
 
 C^. Oh, 1 cannot say that caniicis thenisclvcs ..ay they want eggs t'roni the sock- 
 eye .' Yes, but they dont go t(» get thciii in time. 
 
 C.^. I'ut I sujtjiose you know you cannot get eggs bet'on 
 they c<add have not them earlier. 
 
 (,|. You believe the hatcheries are good though? A 
 and it" suthcient approiniation is iinwu- to look after them. 
 
 Q. l>ig salaries ,' -A. Yes, the men wei'o paid very small salaries and everything 
 was done in a niggardly way, and the result has been very unsatisfactory. 
 
 (.i. The objci't when this hatchery was originally started was to breed the ijuinnat 
 salmon, but cannery men said " no, they are not numerous enough — we want the sock- 
 eye, " and the go\ernment took every means to get the sockcye ; but from evidence 
 brought uf) at this commission, it seems that if "(juinnat ' wei'e bred the majority \\<iuld 
 be white and red and thrown away as useless. Now your first run of sockcve is in 
 July ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, we have been collecting eggs for a number of yeaisand we iiev.'r get them 
 until the end of Sei)teiiiber or Octobei'? — A. This is the run of tish that I would want 
 to take the spawn from, l)ut you take the tail ei\(l of the run, and all k^iow that the 
 healthiest and most robust iw' tlu^ first that go up. 
 
 <). Hut you have to wait until they are ready to siiawn .' A. Well, we know this 
 the inspectoi' complained very much the late Tom Mowat matters were always 
 delayed too long and two lines from the departmiMit would liaxedone it. 
 
 ii. Oh well, you know if all complaints were gone into we could not tiiink of attend- 
 ing to them. Now, have you anything mor»' to say .' A. Xo ; J think not. 
 
 (J. We are much obliged to you for your evidence ? — A. You are welcome, 
 way, a friend of mine, Mr. Laidlaw, asked mc to say that he was not very we 
 would like to ])Ut in a statement. 
 
 Mh. Wii.mot. Oh yes ; let him put it in we will put it on lecord. 
 
 Mr. IJiHKKi.i,. \'erv well, thaid< vou. 
 
 By the 
 
 and he 
 
 1, ' 
 
 .1. C. AHMSTHOX(;, a I'.ritish Canadian, a resident of New Westnnn.ster, and 
 living in liritish Columbia since liSr)8, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, sii' ? A. 1 merely wish to remark about the s|)awiiing grounds. I have 
 been up and down the viver — my impression is, if uj) at the Harri.son Hi\t'r, at one 
 place, the tiovernment would employ an Tndian or whiteman a month at certain seasons 
 to let little salmon out, it would increase salmon more than the hatchery, at a very small 
 e.xpense. T ha\e been there myself and T have seen the little salmon in the two little 
 creeks where they go out, and when the water I'ecedes they get dammed up, and the 
 .salmon remain there in millions, becau.se they cannot get out. 
 
 Q. Then how lieninied in, sir? -A. This all gets Hoo(hul and the little .salmon that 
 are able to swim, rise, and the river droi)s (juickly and they cannot get out. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (). The water goes down and they cannot get out ? A. Yes 
 and let many of them out. 
 
 I have taken a stick 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Y^ou have been up there and seen them, they were .salmon ? A. Y''es : I Nvas 
 with Mr. Mowat. 
 
 CJ. What time of the year was it when you saw them there? — A. Along about the 
 first of May or June. 
 
imrnsn c(»riU.MiMA kisheiiy commission. 
 
 105 
 
 (J. Wliat size wmild tlicy l)c '. A. Well, soiiif cinild iiiii !iii)11imI, lint ollicrs Iijirdly 
 liiid tilt' t '^<i filis(»rl«'(l. 
 
 (^. Some Vdii say mdy iiii im-li .and a lialt' loni; and Minic with tin- sack nn \i'l '. - 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Were these natni'ally-hied tish or d('|Misited .' A. ^'es, luUnrally-hred lish. It' 
 \(iii will di^f down you will find the spawn thei'e now the water comes in and then 
 ihies up and tin; little salmon die. They were so plentiful that yeal-s a;;i) the Indians 
 used to '^vl a stick and put it in and j,'et the spawn .ind dry it for their Christmas 
 |iiiddin<,' or somethinji of that soi-t. Anothei- thiny; aliout the trout I 'have seen the 
 s.ilmon as they came in to spawn followed hy ^reat numhersof those trout who ,i,'o in to 
 cat the sp.awn. The trout are the sjinu.' as a pack of wolscs after sliecji. 
 
 (,^. Well, one view is that Providence has provided tliin;;s very well, and nature 
 |iro\ided these s|)awidn!;' heds up there but the most destructive animal to salmon and 
 tile youn;; tish is man himself and not those creatures whom l*ro\ idence has put there.' 
 A. Well, I have seen as many salmon hetween ^'a!e jind .Spenei-r's l)rid<.,'e ;is tin 
 cinners put uji in a wholo year. 
 
 (). What about salmon dyin;^' up the I'iver .' A. Well, 1 don't know, J ha\<' eome 
 lindujih a jL^reat many of them, probably acres of them. 
 
 A. Do you see live one.s .' A. No. 
 
 i). They wei'c underneath you seldom see the live ones, they would be underneath 
 it is oidy the dead ones you see. Well, I am sure we are very ^lad to hear your 
 report and if our officer here will tak(Mip the matter and report upon it, 1 lio|pe it will 
 lie attendtnl to. We thitnk you for vour information. 
 
 THoMAS LADNI'lli, of Ladners Landinj.;, a n.iti\(' of Knjiland, a resident of 
 Ladner's Landing', in iW'itisli Columbia, since l.'*^."')S, a salmon cannery propi'ietoi-, was 
 duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 ii. Well, yiv. Ijadner, ha\e you any statement to make or would you prefer beinj; 
 ijiiestioned .' A. I am (piite willing' to answer any tpiestions you may ask. 
 
 C^. What about the ofi'al .'A. Well, my \iews in I'ejjfard to otlal are tnat it does 
 iin injury to tish whatever. 
 
 (}. What has it to do with the human family their comfort, or health .' A. Well, 
 speakiiii; personally, T li\e :i<j;ht in it, and 1 don't know that it has injured me much. 
 1 don't think that it injures anyone : it causes a little stench sometimes, which, if the 
 (lead tish went, it would be more use. 
 
 (i>. You think it- ortensixc? — A. Yes, in certain localities as regards smell ; but it is 
 lint injurif)us to tish oi- the human family generally. 
 
 <^. Are you a believei' in seieiice, or have you .seen the authorities pui forward by 
 the |)(>partment of Aiiriculture, Province of Ontario? A. No : [ ha\o not. 
 
 (^. Well, here is a statement from an ( )i\tario (Jovernment otiieial who has analysed 
 oUal of ti.sh, and says 
 
 " From the con.sideration of the whole (juestion, 1 am of opinion that the manu- 
 facture of the refuse into fertili/ei' is strongly to be recommended, because : 
 
 " 1st. Tt will thus utilize a bye-produet that otherwise is a total loss. 
 
 "2nd. It will prevent the waters from beiny- contaminated. 
 
 " .'b'd. Its proper management must tend to a more healthful surrounding. 
 
 " Ith. Its return to the soils of the farm will partly oH'set the waste of our cities by 
 sewerage carried to the lakes and rivers. 
 
 " -"ith. If properly handled it will jiay well. 
 
 " From the great importance of this ([uestion to the health of the community, tlie 
 welfare of tlu» iishing industry, and the progress of agriculture, I have t^ideavoured to 
 ivplv at this length." 
 
 ■ (Victoria, n.C.,L'n/u,>l.-<f, L'Oth Feb., K^92.) 
 
106 
 
 MAKINE AND FI.SIIERIE.S. 
 
 Ml!. liAliNKH. Who is llif fiutliuiily ' 
 
 Till- .lutlitiiity is I'rdtV.ssnr C. ('. .Iiiiiics, PiotVssnr of (.'ln'iiiistiy in 
 
 Mu. » II, MOT, iiu- .iiuimnty is i-roicssor i . i. . .mines, riorcssor or Lin'iiiisiiy in 
 
 the Cliriiiic'il li(il)oi'iitoiy of tin- Oiituiio Ajiriiultiir.il C"oli»'j,'(>, at (Juolpli, Out., who ha.s 
 
 1 1. .(»•..! ..t; I »: .1.' .1..., i:..i c n i i i : 'I'l ,...,, 
 
 Mn. Wii.Mo 
 iiic Cht'iiiic'il li(il)oi'iiioiy or tih- i muuiio .\jj;i'iiuitiii"ii <. oiicjfr, lu iiiUMpii, «Mir., win 
 unalyst'd oilal of cimI tish, dojif-lish, caiiMi'iv refuse fioni sahiioii and hi'iiiiij.;. Thost 
 his (.'oiiohisions. 
 
 A. They are ri<,'lit in some ways an<l in others wroiif^. As a fertilizer we don't want 
 it heir then you must take into aecount the cost attached to it wiial costs !?1 in 
 ( )ntario costs .SlU liere. 
 
 .Mil. Wii.MOT. Tlien tlie I'rovincial (Joveriimeiit propo.ses tliat. a syndicattf he 
 formed for the utilization of tlw oti'al and waste in connection with tlie proposed fisliinu 
 operations of tlie Orofteis to he l)rou.iiiit out iiere for settlement. 1 will read you an 
 extract from tlie Victoria Dnih/ TInirx of the 21st Kehruai-y. After e.xplainiiij,' the 
 leadinii details of the scheme, the article i^oes on to say; 
 
 " As it is understood, an l'in>;;lish company is in eoui'se of organization \sith a capi 
 tal of a million sterlini,', for the purpose of ])urchasinj;' the tish from the Itoats of the 
 Crofters as soon Its caujflit, and transpoi'tinj; them throuj^h a cold storaj;»i system on 
 steamers and cars to evei-y important mark(!t on the continent. In addition to this it 
 it is understood that the coni]iany \\ ill he prepared to cure fish l)y a variety of processes, 
 extract tish oils a. id manufacture fertilizers, Sic, from the ofl'al. So that all kinds ot 
 tish procurahle will he utilized and tliere shall he no waste. The reader will at oiici 
 jieiceive how thes(> two branches <if the scheme will work into each other, and tlio whole 
 tend to the development of the deep-.sea tisheries of the ])rovim'e, tlius estahlishing a new 
 industry, the possibilities of whicii are as boundless as 'our fi;reat sea farm.' ", 
 
 ^^l!. IjADNKI;. That is a yood idea, I oidy hope that they will do it they are ipiitc 
 welcome to all the oti'al on the Fraser lUver without buyinjj it. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 (i>. AVould you deliver it to them .' .\. Yes; we would deliver it to them. 
 
 Bif Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 i}. Then you think it oU'ensiNe ! A. Not universidh' an oJl'ensive tliini;' only once 
 and awhile you smell it. 
 
 (,». Does it lodye.' A. Oh, a little heads and tails. 
 
 (i>. Is not that the lar^'est portion? -A. No; 1 think the entrails the largest por- 
 tion. 
 
 i-i- It (le])ends how much you cut off.' A. 
 
 (}. Vol! think it not detrinu'iital to tish 
 tish? Would .saw-dust be injurious? -A. Yes ; 
 in the gills, otherwise 1 don't think it would. 
 
 Q. Do you think from your knowledge, that .saw-dust or any de.scription of offal, it 
 strewn on beds where eggs are laid by salmon would be injurious? — A. 1 suppose it 
 would. 
 
 (}. How about the limitation of nets what are your views ^ Tiuler the present 
 rule the caniu'i's are entitled to twenty boats each and the tish(!rmen in numl)er to take 
 up loO, while canners '•M^0. A. Well, if you take it on the basis of my o[)inion, IwduM 
 allow tishermen to buy all the licenses they wish, and I think caniuMs should Inuc at 
 least twenty-five nets each. Every Ihitisli subject and I'esident of the country should 
 be intitled to get one boat and canners not less than twenty-tive. 
 
 i}. Now, Mr. Ladner, F cannot help but refer to the figures, as in tlie case of Mr. 
 lUrrell : but do you advocate an unlimited number of canneries? -A. Yes ; any person 
 wlio wants to put up a cannery, let liiiii do so. 
 
 Q. You are more liberal than many others? A. Oh, i don't know, 1 don't advo 
 cate a monopoly of the canners at all. 
 
 Q. Then you think canners slioukl have twen*^v-tive licenses and fishermen have an 
 iiiiliinited luiinber one each ! A. I tlo. 
 
 is any other substance detrimental to 
 J think it would be injurious if it got 
 
imiTISH COLUMUrA KISIIERY COMMISSION. 
 
 1(17 
 
 ii. Tlicif lire twciitv two iiiniii'rics mi the livi'i' ! A. ^'cs. 
 
 <.^. Alt' iitlicis to lie t'lcclfd '. A. I'()ssil)lv. , 
 
 (.}. At IsvfiityUsc hoiits fiicli and twenty two iiinnciirs it would luin;; a |iniduil ot 
 |."»,()00 cases for iMU'li fiirun'iy in t^Xl•(^s8 of any on*' yi'iir you have tislied this rivei? — 
 A. NN ell, I don't know how yon make that out. 
 
 t^. \N ell, you see, if twenty two canneries at twenty hoats each are rei|uired to pro- 
 (hice as many cases as have Iteen pro. luced .' A. < )n what authoi'ity do you place the 
 Ipoats at twenty .' There would l»e outside iioats woidd there not .' Then the iiins varv 
 you liast^ your (iijures that they catch so many tish evei'v day. 
 
 <.^. No ; I iiase my ti^ures on an as(.'ra;j;e of l."),000 <'ases, and that is the axd'aye of 
 ,dl the canneries except Mr. Kssen's .' A. No: I have put u|i more than that. I work 
 according,' to the'market. If it justifies me in packini,' '-'•"•.ODO cases. I will do it. 
 
 Q. Then you thiid< .Mr. liiri'dl not correct .' .\. I disagree with him in that 
 respect. 
 
 <^. 'I'hen twenty-five lioats \\-ould al\say>. with fair runs of lish, supply your 
 factory .' A. I»ut I say they would not. 
 
 <^. What would you say that twenty five i)oats would produc-e daily with an 
 ordinary run of (ish .' A. Well, when you speak "daily ' you cannot form a basis of 
 opinion on daily catches, liecause, some yeai's theic are lai'','e runs and some snudl. 
 
 g. Well, take iSS'.t or I S!)0 .' .\.' Well, say ISIH). In the day you wen- here 
 t\\t'nty-ti\t' Ixiats would supply a canner'y. 'I hat day was the oidy day ! ^av\ so many 
 tish on the Ki'.iser Riser. 
 
 <i>. The tish came to meet me then. (Lau^ditcr ).' .\. ^'es, sir ; l)Ut you cannot hase 
 an opinion on l'-") l)(jats, because you cannot take the run of a biy year there is only a 
 few days in the year when the bii,' run happens some days they will be lifty to a 
 hundred to a boat and even .'iOO, and I have ;j;ot KM) to the boat, but that is an excep- 
 tional tliinif. ^'ou cannot base an opiidon on thai I am speaking' of twehc years ex- 
 perience now . 
 
 <^. Well, you say y(»u woidd i)e satisfied with t wcnty-tixc boats.' A. No. 1 would 
 not. 1 say 1 would be willing,' to work on a basis of twenty-tive boats and obtain the 
 l)alance of tish f re(|uire from outside boats, l)ecause twenty ti\i' would not su|)ply uiy 
 cannery, either in a lar^^e or small year. 
 
 (}. How many boats did y(ai run last year ^ .\. I think it was iwenty and sitnie 
 outside boats. 
 
 <.^. And your pack wiis r_',70U cases.' .\. If that book shows it (referring,' to 
 departmental report in Mr. Wihnot's hands), that is it. 
 
 (}. Then you think you could not keep your cannery runninj,' satisfactorily with 
 under twenty-live boats ! -A. Not with twt'iity ti\<' boats I take a basis of twenty- 
 li\e. and what 1 reipiire o\er and above that I yet from outside boats now one year I 
 used thirty boats. 
 
 (}. Do you thiidv you etndd overti.sh the river '. \. No, 1 don't thiid\ so. 
 
 i). Would a thousand boats aH'ect it, or 10,000.' A. Well, in reason they would. 
 l)Ul our lishinji is done in tidal water almost entirely. I saw a cast; in point 
 where they l)rou,ij:ht in an average of loO tish to a boat, and next morninj;' they don't 
 brin;,' ten tish to the boat, and that was the whole leni^^th of the river, and that satisfied 
 iue that tish come in and stay in one day they yet l)eyonil ail chance of beiny cauyht. 
 Kish have plenty of chance to yet uj) river. 
 
 Q. What is your idea as to freezers and market-men.' A. Well, my idea is they 
 have an over-supi)ly of boat.s, becau.se they use them dui'iny the sockeye run. In the 
 spring run and fall run they retjuire boats, of course, but during the sockey»' I'un they 
 don't use the mnnber of boats .uey get. 
 
 <(>. Hut if a freezing establislnnent is put up with the view to employing ca[)ital 
 and men to work it and can put up an e(|ui\alent to 10,000 ca.ses, should not the indus- 
 tiy be encouraged t A. Certainly. 
 
 t_.'*^ Don't you thiidv they would be eijually beneticial.' A. No: canneries emjiloy 
 UKue labour, and thus are more beneticial. 
 
 Q. But canneries employ Indians and Chinamen ? A. Oh, I differ; 1 employ 20 
 w hitemen in my cannery ; canneries difier. 
 
1U8 
 
 MARtNK AND hMSIIKIlIKS. 
 
 i). Iillt ill lUltfillir lip itll fi|lliviil<'lll to I •">.(HI() ciiM's lit' ciililirtl Milllioli tilt' .1111011111 
 tit' liilitiur wtniltl iittt lif >ti jri'fiil IIS lilt; iiiiitumt tit' liiliKiir it't|iiiri'ti in fiiiiiifrifs .' A. Nn, 
 lit' ctMirst- iitd. 
 
 i}. liut tlif wlitilf tisli wtiiild lif lakt'ii ; iiinif svinild !«• tliitiwn away.' A. WfU, 
 it iiiiiilit nut lit' lliriiwii away lifif, Imt it wtniltj lir tliittwn away stiint'wlit'rt' t'lsf. I 
 tltin't kiitivv alii'liit'r tlii'V K"*^'"'"' '"■""'• '"" ''''^ iiiiist lit' tlirtiwii awiiy stimt'w lit'if. 
 
 (^. What alitnit tlif lifatis aiitl slitniltlfis and tails.' A. < >li, wi'll, wf tltm'l tlirttw 
 iiwiiy as iniicli as all as wt- art- rf|iit'st'ntt'tl In dt». 
 
 (). What is ihf asfiai^'t' \\t'i;;lit tit' tlif lisli ytai laki- ' A. Alitdit 7 tir N |it)iint|s. 
 
 <^>. Tlit'sf XM'if iii'ihaps a lit I If lar.utT ih'aii usual vvhfii I was t hf if .' ( )|i, ahiait 
 
 an ast'ra;4f : iii a i^otnl run tiu'V art' smallfr. 
 tioiiullv ;;tititl, and tnily last*>d t'tii'tiiif day. 
 
 That 
 
 run wlit'ii ynii wfif lifif was fxtfji- 
 
 ii. lit 
 
 tiw iiiaiiv fans tio vtui in 
 
 •y 
 
 like til a lisli .' A. lU'twt'cn I tir "i faii>- 
 
 (}. Tlifii tish wfij^diiiii; >> [ittiintls will uivf vmi ;"• fans anil ■'! |iiiiin(ls tilVal ! A. 
 Yfs. 
 
 (^>. Ynu ha\f ri-ail tlit^ stalfini'iit nt' an iiitli\iilual in a |iiililif tltifuiiif lit. hasfynii. 
 that an S |itiund tish wtiuld inakf "i fans and .'1 |iiiuiiils thrtiwn away as titlal .' A. 
 W't'lh I will It'll ytiu, .Mr. W'ilintit, that I was sti ilis;fiistfil wlifii I saw that, fiit in the 
 rffitirt that I iliti nut rfad it. That is tlif htuicst truth. I was sti ilisyustfd with that 
 cut I wtiiildn't I'fatl it. 
 
 (}. Hut tlif aftual liifuri's ai'f forri'ft ! A. W'fll. afftirtliiiLC Itt t hat t-iit tlu'rt' was 
 iinirc than halt' tlif ti.sh thniwn away. 
 
 <^. ^'tiu husc tfotitl cyt's, hast' \tiu iinl .' .\. ^'fs : \t'ry <,ftiiitl. 
 
 .Mii. W'll.MdT. - (Shtiwiiii; cut in rf|itirt, I )t'|iaitiiifnt tit' l-'ishfrifs, ISOO, |i. (it)), 
 Dtifs thai fut show intirf than halt' tlif tish thrtiwn away.' .\. Yes, it dtifs, ]ii(i\ iili'd 
 ytiii take tlif entrails nut. Tlif tuts slmuld lif shtiwn iifaifr rhf licatl and tail. 
 
 (}. I>ut tlif t'at'ts arc that tlirff ptninils til' till'al art- takfii t'rtun an fiylit |niiintl lisli? 
 A. < )h, well, thf t'at'ts art' just as I statf tlifiii. 
 
 (^. Tlifii ytiu ftiiitfiitl thf faiiiifrifs shtnilil liavf t wt'nty-ti\t' liffiisfs that fvi-ry 
 man shtuild lia\'f tine, aiitl that as many i-aniifrifs as like In shtuild <;ti in thf liiisiiifss .' 
 - A. Yfs : anti as it'fjards t'l'ffZfrs I think they shtuild liavf fiitiiinh tti ftnuhu't thf 
 liusiiifss, iiut I don't think t'rt'f/frs shtiuld lia\t' liffiisfs ti> tratlif in. 
 
 Q. Dti vmi think caniifrs shtniltl liavf licfiisfs tti tratHi- in.' .\. Nn. 
 
 (.^ 
 
 Is it fM'i' dtuit 
 
 A. I iifNt'r lifaril tit' it lit'injidi 
 
 mu 
 
 (). What is the c'usttim t(t' faniifis finiiltiyiny tuitsiilo tislifrnifii / .\. I'ay thciii sti 
 oh fai'li t'lir tlifir tish. 
 
 i}. is it thf lialiit t(t' faniifi's tti ihi .stmifwhat similar tn what t'rt'fzfrs ilti, naiiifly, 
 apply t'tirtfii htiuts aiitl tlifii when they fanniit use tlifiii sell them tn tithers .' .\. The 
 nets shiiuld nut lie used as nets t'tir freezers when issuetl tn eaimers it is ))riipt'r they 
 shtiuld lie usfd t'tir the purptisf t'tir wliieli issuetl. 
 
 ii. And the saiiif shtiultl ap]>ly tti faniifrs .' A. ( >t' ctuirse. 
 
 <.^>. Dii ytiu think a settler tir fanner slituiKl tish at a small fee fur histiwn use ?- A. 
 Yes ; tir what is iiiiire, if he ehiinses tn tish h;- lia.s just as mufli rij^ht. 
 
 Q. IJut the fee is tlifjerent .' - A. Oh, well, i". that case, yes. 
 
 Q. Well, these thinjis I have put tn ymi an- aist the very laws as they staiitl tin the 
 •Statute linok .' A. iUit 1 want t\venty-ti\t' 'icf.ises and iinlimitfd license.s tn nutsiders. 
 
 Q. ^^'lluld ytiu jii\'e them in the .same \\as tn Indians' A. Nn : I wtiultl iint. 
 
 <^ Why .' A. IJeeause I ilnn't think them cajiahle. 
 
 Q. Do not canneries emjiltiy <,'reat numliers of Indians? A. Yt^s. 
 
 <^). Are they not capalile nf ilnin<; their wnrk :' A. They are cajialilc in a way : liut 
 it tines lint make much iliti'erence -they shnultl he allowed every ]irivilei,'e po.-ssible. We 
 claim in Jiritish Coluniliia the Indians are self-su]iportinfj, but they should not have.same 
 ]irivileji;es as whitemeii. 
 
 <^. What alinut the clti.if .season.' A. I think the clnse seasnn as at present is 
 
 cnrrect. 
 
 (i- That is what ytiu practiseil last year? -A. Yes. 
 
 i}. What about an aniuiid clnst; season?- A. I think there should be an annual 
 -■lose season. 
 
 (,». What liiii 
 (ipi'ii t iiiif iit't-^ II 
 i). .\iitl Ihf <■ 
 ■-hiuiltl nut bf lf>> 
 (}. I 'ti ytiu I M 
 i}. Are sniiif 
 (j. What tin 
 i). .\\f linllf 
 (^». I''rtim 'J-'it 
 lifts shttulil lif nf 
 \vf falfli thf sprit 
 •.mall meslifs nels 
 laiyt'r as ytiii like. 
 (^». Kivf aiitl I 
 \(iii ilti ihfii '. .\. 
 (^>. .\iitl ynii V 
 iliiti't fatfh tlifiii. 
 (). Tllfll Vnll 
 
 ihf 111 : A. Wfii. 
 
 (^>. ( 'an ynu a- 
 thf hatchery is a il 
 (}. .\nd is it 
 aililitiniial ones bui 
 I'laser aiitl tin the 
 ij. What tish 
 that ytiu are just a' 
 wlifii you tak • thci 
 men can tell tlieiii. 
 (,). Wnuld tht 
 I dtint kiinw, pfili 
 il Wht'iv is t 
 t)f the river tn Stav 
 {). Where is t 
 I ftinsider that t 
 inn i^ farried tin tui 
 (i. What wtiul 
 nut wards? A. it 
 takfii it intn coiisit 
 i). 'i'herefore, 
 nil outsiilc of the ii 
 <^). .Vntl till yo 
 not be counteiianct 
 fiiance it, because 
 Wcstininster than 
 iiinutli of the river 
 Q. Then you 1 
 .\. Titlal waters u] 
 i}. No, 1 may 
 (lary at Pitt liiver 
 A. I don't know 
 slopped at Haminn 
 Q. For coiniiH 
 g. The it lea \> 
 In the siiawning \w 
 re|itirt, i)ei)artnieii 
 thf river vnu wni 
 lint mind as regan 
 
lilllTlSlI niiHr.MHIA nsllKllY CnM.MISSION. 
 
 too 
 
 <i' W'liiil li wuiild ymi siiy t'ni' tlial .' A. I'Vimi Isl .Mairli lui'.'iili Aiii.'HJ-t as 
 
 ii]Mii tiiMi' iM'l^ iiol li's.s tliun •"•■,' iiii'lics. 
 
 <i>. Ami the I'lnsc pi'iiuil t'luiii .' A. And t'loiii L'"itli AiiLCiisI in •_'."»||i Sc|.|ciiilicr ncl^ 
 >liiiiil(l nut lit' It'NS ilwiii 7,' iiii'lii's ui' luiM' then sjnin;,' salinun ninnin^i in ilic tall. 
 
 <i>. ho yon tan tlit-ni ' A. ^'cs ; sonifl iiiics. * 
 
 <^. Air Minii- w liilc and led .' A. N'fs, 
 
 if. Wliat dn vdii (lit with them ! A. <Ii\c thrni tn IndianN. 
 
 (). Arc imnr llnnwn away ' A. I iicvrr saw any. 
 
 (jt. I'Vuni •_'•")! h Si'|itfnd)cf wliat tlicn .' A. h'titni L'.">th Sc|ilfndici- In Nt Nnxciidu'r, 
 lifts should Itt'itt' nritr li'ss than •"•,' inch nirsh. My iTasnns t'ur this is that in cai'lv s|,iinj; 
 ur catfli the spiinj;; salinuii and ut' coiirsc that icijnii'cs lariff nu'sh and wc don't ici|iiii't> 
 small iiifsiirs nets niililalon;; in .lidy. Wril. I put it '^'l liccansc von ran use as niiicli 
 larju'cf as yoii like, liut yon must not use smaller. 
 
 (}. Five and lhi'ee-(|naitei's is the estahlished mesh tVom 1st Nn\enilier. what do 
 you do then / A. Well, we don't fish not after that. 
 
 <i). And yon wmdrl have a close sca.son Itiit no lisli .' .\. < »li. thi'ic are tish. Inn we 
 dnii't catch t hem. 
 
 (}. Then you are w illiuj;' to ;^i\(' a close season for lish when \ou I'annot net or ii.sc 
 ilicni '. A. Well, we i,'i\e two days throuijlioul the lisliiiii,' season now. 
 
 <i>. Can you assign any cause for the yood runs in ihe last few years ' A. I ihink 
 the liatclu-ry is a decided success. 
 
 <i>. .\n<l is it your view on liehaif of the lishcries of i he rouni ry. there shoidd lie 
 aiMitional ones liidlt .' A. It is. I thiid< there should lie one on the head waters of t.'if 
 l''raser and on the head waters of the 'I'lioinpson. 
 
 (). What (isli would you liifcd .' A. The sockeyi' I would ad\ocati' hiij salmon, only 
 thai you are just as liaMe to hatch white ones as red ones. It is\cry hard to (ell them 
 w hen you tak- them out of the water you can tell them though e.xjierienced tisher- 
 uien can tell tliem. 
 
 (). Would they |)revail at any .season exceiit when they are spawnini,' .' .\. Well, 
 I don't know, perhaps so. 
 
 <^. Where is the ti.shini; carried on principally in the river.' .\. l''rom the mouth 
 of the river to Stave l?iver. 
 
 t^). Where is the mouth of the river.' .\. h't'om tJarry Uusli to the opposite i'oint 
 I consider that the imtuth of the rivei- ])idper, Itut not for fishini; the principal tish 
 \\\ii is cari-ied on out on the sand lieatis and from New Westminster down. 
 
 t^). What would he tht^ proportion of hoats that would he Hshinj,' from <!arry i'oint 
 outwards.' A. It is pretty hard to say I don't think half of them. I have never 
 taken it into consideration. 
 
 (i>. Therefore, there is really not a ixrciiter but ei|ual proj)ortion of fishini,' carried 
 on outside of the month of the river.' A. Yes, I think so. 
 
 <i>. And do you tliiidv any iuterforence with fishing outside the mouth pro})er would 
 not lie countenaiieed i)y caniKM's or anyone else? A. I don't think they would count- 
 enance it. hecause little harm can he done. TIk^v very often catch more tish above 
 Westminster than sve do at the mouth of the river. .Vll the nets you could put at the 
 mouth of the river would not stop fish going uj). 
 
 Q. Then you think the present limit for lishing on the Kr.-'ser Uiver is correct,' — 
 .\. Tidal waters up to Sunias. 
 
 (.^. No, I may state the Dominion (iovernmer.i has agreed to establishing the boun- 
 dary at Pitt Uiver bridge and it Hammond on the main river, for commercial fishing? 
 A. I don't know anything about the Pitt, but I don't see why Hshing sliould be 
 stopped at Haminond they ti.sh at tlie mouth of the Stave River. 
 
 Q. For commercial purposes? A. Yes, they bring them down to the canneries. 
 
 t^. The idea is to allow fish that have pas.sed (he gauntlet of your nets to go free up 
 lo the spawning beds, (showing diagram of propo.sed limits for fishing on Fraser Uiver, 
 report. Department of Fisheries, 18!)(), ji. 77.) now, you go generally to ih<' mouth of 
 the river you would not seriously object to tlie lines laid oH' there ? A. Yes, 1 would 
 not mind as regards Pitt River, but I think fishing should be allowed up to the Stave 
 
110 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Hivcr. Tlu! limit should not Im^ lower tiiau Stave liiver. I think the present limits 
 are all that is reciuired they have l)een tlu^ limits for years and there is no reason for 
 chanjiinj; it. 
 
 By Mr. Armstron<j : 
 
 Q. What do ycm consider tio present limits ? — A. I'p to Siimas. 
 Mr. WiLMoT. T dont think so. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Why would it not do to make the weekly clo.'^t; season from 1'2 o'eloek Saturday 
 to 1 2 o'clock Sunday night ? A. Well, there is a fi;reat inind)er of i-easons tlie |>rincipal 
 is if the close time is 12 o'clock at night we would not get one-third of our hoats out 
 ti.shing and the conse(]uence would he we would lose all day Satui'day, all day Sunday 
 and all day ]\londay — three days each out of tive weeks. 
 
 (}. Well 12 o'clock Saturday to (5 o'clock Sunday ? —A. \o ; that would not do — 
 we would have to work on Sunday and that would cost us double — o\'er-time is double 
 time. If tliDt is to be it would be just as well that all consent for peo|)le who will not 
 work on Sunday not to work. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. If yfHi connnenced fishing on Sunday at 12 o'clock midnight, could not Hshcrmen 
 be enabled to get tish for next morning .' A. \o ; they could not catch suflicient 
 ((uantities we would not get one-third of the boats tf» work. 
 
 (.^. Then Sunday cl()se time amounts to nothing? — A. Oh, no : Sumlay closes it 
 closes e(iually in the majority of peoj)l(''s opinions here. 
 
 Q. lUit if you bre.'ik Sunday at all, is it not as bad to work a part as all of it?- A. 
 That is a matter of opinion. N^ow, we have oidy a few weeks in the year, and T con- 
 sider it a gr(^ater sin when these things are given us if w(> don't take care of them. 
 
 Q. We have in e\idence that some tisliermen will not work on Sundays ? A. ^\'ell. 
 pei'haps they are christians like Mr. Wilmot, and others are christians like me. (laughter). 
 I think it would be a great injustice to make the Sunday kiw any ditfei-ent all persons 
 can do as they like some persons' conscientious .scruples should not yu\e the others. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 (}. r>ut you say you could not get all the boats out if they went at I 2 o'clock Sunday 
 night .'-A. IJecausethey will not be over half a shift -they say so sometimes in the day 
 time — we could not get our men to go out (ishing -some might go but some would not. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 t^. Have you anything further to say ? A. Yes ; when your Commission is sitting 
 in Victoria, I. would like you to call uj)on .^^r. Smith, who can give you \ery gooil infor- 
 mation on sjiawning grounds and the way the Indians are taking the young fish -they 
 take them (mt, he says, in waggon loads. He could give you very good information. 
 
 Mr. AKMSTKON'(i.--Yes ; we will endeavour to g(!t him when we go there. 
 
 Mr. I). II. POUT, who had previously given evidence, |)resen(ed himself before the 
 Commission and stated his desir*? to mak(> a few explanations in view of statei\ients 
 made by different witnesses. He had not thrown large cjuantities of tish away, but may 
 have thrown away forty or Hfty, but that would be all. He also had sold some tish to 
 the canneries and considered the fairest limitation would lie in the close time and not in 
 the limitation of boats. He had not bartered licenses or solrl them, but had worked 
 them on shares -the fishing materials being supplied by him and arrangements made 
 with the fishermen. 
 
 The Commission adjourntMl at (1 p.m., to meet at the same place at 10 a.m., on the 
 23rd February, 1892. 
 
■r if<a 
 
 HRITISII COLUMIUA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 Ill 
 
 Xkw Wkstmixster, ll.C, I'.Jid lu'hiuaiy, ISOi'. 
 Tlie Conunissioii iiu't in tlic Court-liouse at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present: -Mr. S. Wilniot, |irt'.si(liii.u ; Slieritf Aiiiistiiinu-, Mr. C. V. Winter, 
 sceretaiy. 
 
 At the reciuest of Mr. P. Birrell, and upon jjerniission ot" the C!liair, tlie secretaiy 
 lead over a portion of his notes of evidence yiven l»y ^fr. liirrell tlie day [irevious, and 
 about whicli tliat •j;entlenian was in douht. .Mr. I'.ii-rell expressed iiis satisfaction witli 
 I lie rtH-ord. 
 
 .\LEXANJ)K1{ HW'KN, of Now Westminster, a natixc of Scotland, t weiil y-eij,d»t 
 years resident in Britisli (..\)luml)ia, a salmon eaiiner and proprietor, was duly sworn. 
 
 /ii} Mr. Wlhi,nf : 
 
 (). Will it be as well to coninience hy asking (piestions, or will you give a state- 
 ment .' -A. f)li, just as well to ask (|uestions. 
 
 <.^. Well, the finst matter of importan(;e is the ott'al (piestion. Will you state con- 
 cisely your views as to wliat you think on this matter — what are your views .' -A. My 
 \ iew on the sul)ject is that oli'al does no injury to salmon it lias no injurious ert'ect 
 upon them. 
 
 (}. Not injurious to salmon .' \. No: nor to tisli life of any kind. It has l)een a 
 (juestion that has raised a great deal of agitation here, hut on the whole Pacific coast it 
 lias always been i)ut in the rivers and waters- on the Columbia Miver, on which there 
 is a great deal more tish put up than here, and on the Skeena, and I cannot see any 
 eti'ect (hiring the twenty-eight years T have been (isliing here. The salmon are as 
 |ilentiful now as they ever have been. I think the (irst year I was in the i-ountrv 
 salmon were scarcer than ever I have seen them since. Five or six years after that \\t', 
 had one summer when they wtM-e veiy scarce. 
 
 (). Then you think it is not injurious to salmon or tish lite of any kind? A. No ; 
 that is what 1 think. 
 
 (). What do you think as to health, or looking at it from a sanitaiy point of \iew ! 
 - A. Well. I hav(^ seen no etfect that it has had, and I have been working at it myself 
 and somcitimes em]>loyed a good many men, and there is very little sickness that I have 
 seen around any of the tishing establishments. 
 
 (}. Then y<m don't think it injurious, tVom a sanitary point of \ iew, to anyone ! A. 
 To no OIK? working around the ca-ineries T have u.sed the watei' and e\eryone around 
 has also done .so wlut(! men, Indians, an<l Chinamen, and as far as I know it has inner 
 been filtered around my place. 
 
 Q. it is Altered in some places? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Is it usual to take it right out of the rivei', or do you boil it .' .\. When 
 making tea it i.- usua! to boil it, but not for drinking. 
 
 (^t. Do they drink water there ! A. Yes : we are often forced to drink it. of 
 CM )U rse. 
 
 <^). Put as a usual custom is water used for drinking ? A. ^'es ; as a geiiei'al 
 custom it is usetl the same as in the city for all culinary and other purposes 
 
 ii. Drawn directly out of the river at thi' canneries.' A. Yes : at the canneries. 
 
 Q. So you ar(? under the impre.ssion that it is not injurious to (ish, man, orlieast? 
 A. \Vell, T am under the impression that it is not so there ar«' waters in stagnant 
 sloujfhs that are not tit to drink, but there is such rank vegetation there. 
 
 (}. This water in the sloughs is its condition brought about by (tffal .' - A. No 
 otlal can get tluM'e- it is Hat land - olVai does not afl'ect it tlier<', It is a great ti'oublo 
 on tiat laiul for farmers have to go to the river to get good water. 
 
 Q. Is the water saline up at your caimeiy ? — A. No ; it is always fresh water. 
 
 Q. Now, as you are a i)ractical man here and of large experience, have you ever 
 uwnle any attempt to dispo.se of tlie offal as the law requires? A. No. 
 
112 
 
 MARINE AND I'ISIIKKIKS. 
 
 i). Were ynii iiwjMc all this time that you wccc njifu to heavy penalties? A 
 No, I iievef llioiiijht ahoiil it tliere is no use of anlicipatinj^ anytliin^ l)a(l it wasnesci 
 put in toi'ce. Of course if it liad heen put in foi'ce I would have had to do llie no\i 
 best thinLf. 
 
 (). ^'ou ne\i'r looked forward to haviuii it done ' A. No; I ne\-er hothei'ed alioui 
 it. 
 
 (). lla\cyou in eonneelion wit h other eanners lately thou<j;h( it advisable to pui 
 ollal out in the ehannel of tiie fi\t'i' .' A. Well T third< it is put in tlu; eiiannel in niosl 
 eases. 'I'he eann(M's will always do anything tliat will satisfy the peo|>le as fai' as wc 
 can comply with it. hut at the same time I don't think it would he any matei'ial henelil. 
 
 (). Are canneries erected in the channel of {]\v. river .' A. Well, lliev are not in 
 the centre of the ri\(M', hut they de|)osit olliil in deep water and in a current, as deep iis 
 in the channel, uidess you i^o to pick out some deej) places in the channel. 
 
 (}. Is the eiiannel sometimes so strong as to iccpiire consiflerahle steam |>ower in u 
 ship or tuy so as to stem it :' A. N<i ; the a \ crane <'urrent is ahout four miles an 
 hour. it may l)e more at low watci' and accordinf^ to the strenntli of the tide it may 
 he on the sand heads as much as se\'en and eii,dit miles an iioi;r. 
 
 i). Then there is considcr'ahle current in the middle of t he rixcr is the curi'cnt 
 similar wiu're tiie canneries are liuilt ! A. ^'es : the same current from four to six i 
 miles an hour. 
 
 (}. Is it a fact or not that some canneries are huilt so that they almost toucii tiic 
 hanks of the river .' A. Well, they are all l)uilt in that way sonit' may l)e huilt in not 
 so much current. 
 
 (j. iUit all are more or less liuilt so that aportion is ovci- tiie water i.i: I'ici , . i. ' 
 jiart i)n the land.' A. ^'es, the huildin;;' : hut they are all liuilt so that wi' clei" i\n isn 
 all oxer the water, and in a ^reat many plac<'s the hanks of the rixcrare almost perpen 
 dicular you are rii^ht in <le(^p water at once. 
 
 <i>. ^'ou know that the law was,ol1'al shall he disposed of otherwise than hy putting; 
 it in thiMiser -wh/it su<i;n'estion could you make as to its disposal? A. Well, I d'>n"t 
 know any way it coidd lie done. 
 
 (). Is it cast down in such innnense (juantities ? — A. Yes, the oidy way I tiiink it 
 could lie done, would lie to |iul it in scows and take it rifj;]it out 1o the middle of the 
 (!uif, hut that would he an impossihility, hecau.se the exjiense would l)e ifreat and one 
 half the time it wciuld liaxc to he put rij,dit <m the tishinj;- grounds, espe<'ially when the 
 sea was runnini;, and powerful lioats would he needed to take it. out. 
 
 (). Would that he beyond the lii;hthouse .' -A. Oh. yes ; fiv(>orsi.\ miles l)elow tlie 
 liiiiithouse. 
 
 (). Is lishiny carried on out beyond the liyhtiiouse? A. ^'es. 
 
 (). They yet alonj.^ very well with small boats there? A. N'es. 
 
 (). Then a steamer could cai'ry it fiui ! A. \'es, but at tfreat expense, and it wduld 
 he a matter of consideration for me whether I would do witliout catchin}.; salmon at all. 
 
 <t>. I >o not .some eanners send oll'ai to the oil factory at a distance ?-- A. Yes, st.nie 
 do I have smelt it (laughter) still I don't think it any benefit. They may extract 
 some oil from it, but this olVal ai;ain ^oes into the river. 
 
 (). Is the oil establishment still ru nniiii^ .' A. No, it can only run for two or three 
 weeks. 
 
 (}. Itut it ran last yeaf .' .\. ^'es, and I think the year before. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they do with the oil they make? -A. No, I expect it is 
 exported fr'om the country tluMe is <lo<j;-tish oil that is exported. 
 
 t^. Do they mak(^ doy tish oil there ! A. No. 
 
 Q. It lias been runnini^ two or three years? .\. Yes, but not runninf,' to any 
 extent. 
 
 (}. If the establishment was lar;,'er they could handle more oH'al ? A. Ve.s, but 
 that woidd he no benefit, their oiVal is still .s;;oiii|i( into the river {l.r. the ofl'al from the 
 oil factory). 
 
 (). Tlu'ii you think anylhin.!.; extrai^ted from the ofl'al wou' ' not t.a';c away any of 
 tiie injurious eH'ncts .' .V. No, I don't tliiid< it would -they oi y lake a portion of tiie 
 
 oil frol 
 Coluuij 
 New 
 
 A. Yc 
 
 the bi 
 
 invest^ 
 the of 
 ii 
 know 
 work. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 113 
 
 .'Ihuil 
 
 iiri'ciit 
 to six I 
 
 oil from it, they don't do lb all and a great deal of money has been spent in British 
 Columbia in trying to makt^ this oil business a success ami they have brought men from 
 New York, but it has failed. 
 
 Q. A good deal of English capital has been invested in canneries here, has it not ? — 
 A. Yes, I believe so. 
 
 Q. Do you not know it to l)e so ? -A. Well, there is a good deal of this money in 
 tlie business, but many pet)ple here still retain their money in it, t<»o. 
 
 Q. Do you not think that if the law was enforced these capitalists who have 
 invested money in the cannery would "ot go on with the oil factory and pievent 
 the ofFal from going into the river? — A, Well, I don't knosv that. 
 
 Q. But would these people not carry out the law and extract oil ? — A. Well, T don't 
 know anything about it -my opinion is, that if 1 was in that position 1 would stop 
 work. 
 
 t^. Do you mean to .say that the canneries would stop if ofFal was prevented from 
 going into the river? — A. Yes, as far as I am concerned. (ii\(i me the Hsh for nothing 
 and make me comply with the law and I would not touch it. 
 
 Q. Jfave yf»u made calculations on that ? — A. Well, I have made calculations, and 
 1 know what the cost of the steamer w.mld be to carry the otl'al to the factory, and I 
 know it would l)e greater than the cost of our fish — then the other way, that is putting 
 it into the Gulf,- -the only means that I can think of, and T know if that was done in a 
 rcaso»\abl(! way we would go into it, but no mattei' how we did it we would find it a 
 gieater nuisance than that complained of. 
 
 Q. Yet the cannei-s are willing to carry offal out in scows to the channel of the 
 river ? — A. I tlon't know anything about that. 
 
 Q. Do you belong to the Canners' As.sociation ?— A. No, T don't — in fact there is 
 mo association. 
 
 Q. Do they not have meetings and make rules, itc. ? — A. Well, there was an asso- 
 ciation a few years ago, but it is bi'oken u|). 
 
 Q. Before they went to Ottawa? — A. Yes ; 1 think so — -I am not particular in re- 
 membering dat(!s. 
 
 Q. Do you know the cause for breaking up the as.sociation ? — A. Well, I »lon't 
 want to say — J don't think it would do any good to tell you - jx^ople disagree, you know. 
 
 Q. Do you knt»w on what they disagreed ? — A. Well, greatly (m this (juestion of 
 licenses. 
 
 Q. Were some wanting moie licenses than others ? — A. Well, those are (juestions 
 it is useless to ask, for I speak only for my.self. 
 
 Q. Then your opinion is it would be injuriousto tlu^ caiuieries to be compelled, as 
 the law dirt;cts, to consume otl'al otherwist! than by putting it in tlie river ?— A. Well, I 
 consider it would Ix! unnecessary expense, and I cainiot suggest any way that would 
 lessen th(! expense to do this and which is not necessary. 
 
 Q. But suppose a higher authority said it was necessai-y, what then? — A. AVell, I 
 \\i)uld have to do it or stop working. 
 
 Q. And you think if that was the case, it would be very injurious to you 1 — A. Not 
 to me wholly, but to th(! industry. 
 
 J{j/ Mr. ArniK/roii(/ : 
 
 i^. lUit you know what is the law if you throw oH'al in the river, and the (Jovern- 
 iiieiit as a government have no jxiwcr to change that law? — A. 1 don't know if they 
 have ])ower or not. 
 
 Q. No ; they have not. .\n Act of Parliament cannot be changed except by aii- 
 utJKir Act which sujjersedcs it. Now, you stand, as canners, in this way -anyone can 
 go before a magistrate and complain of you throwing that otl'al in the rivei', and you 
 ciiuld be fined up to .'ii'lOO for every day and every time you do it. Now, would it not 
 iie l)(>tter to do something to get out of that position ? — A. Well, we have been trying 
 lo do all we could. 
 
 Q. Well, but you have done nothing, but a few canners have started an oil fac- 
 
 tdi-y? -A. Well, but it is not a success and then most of their oll'al goes again into 
 
 the I'iver. 
 
 lOc— 8 
 
114 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Are you aware they have tons of it thei-e and have not thrown any of it intu 
 the river ? — A. I am aware tons of it have gone into the river. 
 
 Q. But you stand in that position still and liable to be fined 6100 every day and 
 every time you throw it in? — A. Well, if you put it at $100 a day, in a good run it 
 would be the cheapest way we could get out of it. 
 
 Q. But it would be 8100 every time you put it in ? — A. Oh, well, I might makf 
 another suggestion -that if the Uovernment put that in, force it might be the best tliin;; 
 for the country. I rather think if any people are doing evil, it is within the province of 
 the people to stop it. If it is wrong, they are the governing authority. I am aware (»f 
 the position we are in. 
 
 (4. And some day someone will come forward and lay complaint? — ,A. I know it. 
 
 % Mr. Wihuot : 
 
 Q. You say there were tons of offiil went in the river from the oil factoiy. 
 you tell how much ? — A. Two tons or over. 
 
 Can 
 
 By Mr. Arnisfrong : 
 
 Do you think it as injurious as the ofFal of fish, or worse? — A. Well, T would con 
 sider it was moi:e so. They take the oil away from it, and tlie oil, you know, is pretty 
 good food. Lot." of people live a good deal on it — the water goes down smootlu'i 
 
 (jokingly). 
 
 liy Mr. Wii n 
 
 Q. Now, about 200 . of offal are thrown away from each establishment on an 
 average. Do you know how many establishments sent offal down to this factory ? — A. 
 No : I have heard two, but I cannot give definite information. You ask Laidlaw or 
 Wadhani, and they will tell you. 
 
 Q. You think it a hardship that the (Jovernment should insist upon offal not being 
 thrown into the water ? I think you .said no othei' countries interfered with this ? — A. 
 I don't know of other countries. 
 
 Q. I will show you what othei' countries do : In the State of Washington there is 
 a penalty of from ^•''O to $2-"'0 exacted from persons throwing deleterious substances in 
 streams ? — A. Well, that is observed something like it is in British Columbia. 
 
 Q. Then in the State of Oregon there is a penalty of from 8100 to 8500 for persons 
 putting in deleterious substances? — A. But I beg your pardon — they all allow offal to 
 go into the river, and don't consider it one of the nui.sances. That is their reading of 
 the law. 
 
 Q. The law applies throughout all the Dominion that offal shall not be thrown into 
 the water, nor upon the Atlantic shores where fishing is carried on, and fishermen ha\(' 
 applied for that because, they say, where offal is thrown in, fish gradually disappear. 1 
 merely mention that to show that the Fraser River is not alone where a law regarding 
 offal is in force. In England, and in Sweden and Norway, it is not allowed? — A. J 
 fished for over twenty years in England and Scotland and there was no such law to my 
 knowletlge. 
 
 t^. But prol)ably since you came away the waters became defiled and depleted, and 
 it became necessaiy t() make this law? — A. As a rule, there is not the amount of offal 
 thrown into rivers there as here, and it is utilized in various ways ; but I have seen 
 great (juantities thiown outside of harboui's into the water. 
 
 Q. Hut you don't seem willing to do even that here ? — A. Well, but when it cannot 
 })e carried away, it is put into the harbour. This happens two or three days during tiie 
 herring fishery. 
 
 Q. Are you aware at Burrard Tnlet then; was a factory there and the quantity of 
 offal, ifec, thrown in has driven herring away 1 — A. Well, herring have gone away, as 
 they have in several places, but there is a city there now and other things. The her 
 ring came into tidal water to sjiawn upon rocks, old log.s, etc., but the saw-mills and 
 sewerage have destroyed vegetation, ifec, — the saw-dust from wood when it h)dge8 upon 
 the mud changes it it gets black as coal tar and very offensive, and it was these causes 
 that stopped the herring — they had nothing to spawn upon. 
 
 thing 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 115 
 
 Q. Was saw-dust so plentiful as to covei- the body of the hai-bour?— A. Well, it 
 Ijecame very plentiful, and there is a city there now. The herring ha%e disappeared 
 from many places on this coast. 
 
 Q. I suppose you know there are many places in the Dominion where salmon have 
 wiiolly left'/ — A. I don't know about other parts of the Dominion. 
 
 Q. But if you were told it was so and they left from such causes, would you not 
 think herrin<^ disappeared from similar causes?— A. Well, fish disappear as civilization 
 comes in. 
 
 Q. Do you not want civilization to come because the salmon will disajjpear 1 — A. 
 Oh, no ; but I want people to have tish while they can — they ai"e as plentiful as ever 
 they have been. 
 
 Q. And you think offal not injurious to fish life, oi- in any way ?— A. Well, not to 
 lish life — I am not a scientist. 
 
 Q. You heard articles read yesterday about these matteis? -A. Yes, I heard some- 
 thing, but I did not get a full knowledge of it. 
 
 Q. Then you defer to practical men and scientists and medical men who say it would 
 tend to a better surrounding if not put into the water, and they then say it will pay 
 well, &c.? — A. Well, let them try it — practical experience is often different to theory. 
 
 Q. Then you think the remarks falling from these men are not correct ? — A. No, I 
 would not say that, but I do not think they are correct as regards here — it has not yet 
 been shown that it is injurious here — the fish are as plentiful as ever they have been. 
 
 Q. But fish were scarce when you came here first ?— A. They were at first, yes. 
 
 Q. You had smaller appliances then 1 — A. No, just the same — there were just six 
 or eight nets, or ten then. 
 
 Q. Now there are about 600 ?— A. Yes, but we were catching then ten and twenty 
 splmon in a day. 
 
 Q. But how many now ? -A. Well, in some off years that is the average we catch 
 now. 
 
 Q. What is the cause of theii' being more plentiful now ? — A. But I don't say they 
 are more plentiful — as plentiful as ever, not more plentiful. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the effect of arcificial breeding hei-e ? — A. Well, I have 
 not seen anything from it that has shown anything to give an opinion upon — it is 
 altogether in an experimental stage yet. The artificial breeding of salmon I don't think 
 has been anything of a success — anything as I have heard or read about. 
 
 Q. You think it no success anywhere 1 — A. Well, I have never heard of it. I have 
 seen artificial breeding about fifty years ago. I have been lound the coasts of Scotland 
 marking the smolt when they were leaving. The first year I was here I saw many 
 sinolt.s but have not seen them since. They can be seen very well ; the water is crowded 
 and you can see them. We wei-e fishing with same mesh as used in Italian seine for 
 catching oulachons, and in catching these we got a number of smolts or young salmon — 
 there was not a great number. Then I take a great interest in salmon — I have been 
 catching salmon for the last fifty years. 
 
 Q. Do you think saw-dust injurious to rivers 1 — A. T don't think saw-dust injurious 
 to salmon. When they come in here they are forcing their way through anything — 
 they get beyond us in twenty-four hours. 
 
 At 11.35 a.m. the Court room, being required hy His Honour Judge Boles for the 
 trial of a pending case, the chairman declared the Conni'ission adjourned until 1 o'clock 
 p.m., Mr. A. P]wen to return at that hour for further examination. 
 
 lOc—i 
 
 u 
 
116 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 S: 
 
 IK 
 
 r 1 
 
 I!' 
 
 Wes!TMINSTEr, 23r(l Febrimry, 1892. 
 
 The Commission reassembled in the jury room, Court-house, at 1 p.m. Present : 
 Mr. S. Wilmot, in the Chair ; Sheriff Armstrong and Secretary Winter. 
 The examination of Mr. A. Ewen was continued. 
 
 JJi/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. We got as far as the offal question, I think ?— A. T have one bit of correction 
 of my remarks to make. There is a Canners' Association in existence yet. It is not 
 confined to cannerymen, but, in common, most prominent men in the province belong 
 to it. It is not a Canners' Association alone, but takes in salt fish and others as well. 
 Its headquarters are in Victoria. There are a number of cannerymen in it, and others 
 besides. 
 
 Q. Cannerymen and fishermen, is that it ? — A. Yes, anybody. It is open^for you 
 to be a member, if you like. The fee is 850. 
 
 Q. W^ill you advance the fee ? I might get information from it more than here ? 
 (laughter) — A. Oh, well, if you are disposed to put your money in it, you would see. 
 And then there is the question of my having only one cannery — the question was put 
 to me several times. I have two, but it never came into my head ; but |I don't look 
 upon it as more than one. 
 
 Q. Both fully equipped and ready for work ? — A. Yes ; ready for work ;lbut I 
 have never operated in the new one. I could not get fish enough to do anything with 
 it. I got the licenses, but used the boats for the one establishment. I ci 'uld not get 
 either fish or men to work it. 
 
 Q. What is the capacity of your factory ? — A. Oh, I don't know. In the one that 
 I worked I put up over 2,000 cases a day. 
 
 Q. The annual output has been equal to that ? — A. This last three or four years it 
 has been about 25,000 or 30,000 cases — taking the past three or four years. 
 
 Q. What is the ordinary avei-age pack — yours is the largest by far, is it not 1 — A. 
 No ; I don't know that it is much larger than others. 
 
 Q. You do more business than others ? — A. I have been doing more than others. 
 
 Q. What is the average pack of theirs, have you any idea ? — A. Well, the state- 
 ments are different every year in the Dominion blue-books, and the statements are made 
 here from the Board of Traile. 
 
 Q. What capacity should a cannery be to allow it to obtain the usual supply of 
 licenses ?— A. I don't know) 
 
 Q. Should a cannery be established with a capacity of using ten boats, but yet get 
 twenty ? — A. Well, that is a question that no person can calculate upon — it depends 
 upon what fish you get. You may begin, and wish to put up forty or fifty cases a day, 
 and get boats for it, but after the run begins, you may have to take off half of the boats 
 and then iliis large catch is only for a few days — ten days or two weeks as a rule — that 
 you can get more fish than you can cure. The rest of the time you don't get [such a 
 supply : perhaps not near as many as you want. 
 
 Q. What do you think the number of boats should be for a cannery — what the 
 outside limit ?•— A. Well, I should like to have at least forty. Last year I got fish from 
 over sixty. 
 
 Q. Then the outside limit should be forty i -A. Yes ; I don't care what limit it is, 
 as long as the limitation is on the whole river. It was placed, I believe, two years ago, 
 when the department put the limit at twenty or twenty-five boats, and the !?20 license 
 fee, but it was with the understanding that the river should be left open. 
 
 Q. Then the canneries were to be unlimited in licenses ? — -A. Not particularly the 
 canners — we had reason foi' that on account of labour. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Limited to what ?— A. To twenty-five- 
 of that we tried for the river to be unlimited. 
 
 -it was on account of labour, but outside 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY OOMMISSIOX. 
 
 117 
 
 By Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. Then you as a body of canners wished the river to l)e open without limit? A. 
 Yes ; that was what we asked for ; hut then they raised tlie licenses, but still kept the 
 limitation on. 
 
 Q. But the object now is to know as near as jiossiblc wliat is a fair division of 
 licenses. You were willing to say then that twenty-H\e should be a fair proportion to 
 the canners and fishermen unlimited ? A. Yes; Ijut I wouhl be willing for that yet, 
 and the reason we want that (juantity is on account (if the Indian lal)our. It is iinpcs- 
 sible to put up a large (juantity of Hsh in that time, uiduss you have Fndian lab(jur. 
 
 By Mr. Ariuxtmni/ : 
 
 Q. Do you think each caiuiery should have the same nuud>er of licenses ? — A. Well, 
 if licenses were unlimited to outside parties, I see no necessity of one cannery having 
 more than another — no real necessity ; but if the river was limited it would be vnfair 
 to give them all the same number of licenses. 
 
 By Mr. WUiuot : 
 
 Q. But your view in a few words means this — you are of the impression that it 
 would be best for canners to be limited to a certain number? — A. No, I dont say it 
 would be best — but it is making no material diffei-ence. 
 
 Q. But should canners get licenses not exceeding twenty-five and outside fisherjuen 
 get all they want? — A. Yes, I think it would do, but it wou'l not l)e satisfactory if 
 the same limitation was kept up. 
 
 Q. And would 25 boats be sufiicicmt for canners to run establishments with a pack 
 of 15,000 cases ! - A. No it would not. 
 
 Q. How many would it take to do it? A. It would depend on the season. Be- 
 tween thirty and forty Ijoats. They might not use all duiing the heavy run. 
 
 By Mr. Armstromj : ' 
 
 Q. Could you give us an average - — A. It is impossible to give an average. The 
 real reason that you want to have those boats of your own and get Indian fishermen as 
 they bring their fannlies around and you have Indian women and boys, and some of 
 the men, not fishermen, to work in the canneries, and when this extra fishing comes on 
 you can take off your own boats and get off to work in the cannei-y. There are not so 
 many Chinamen as there weie, and Indians, these last few years, are more pliable and 
 will work in the cannery when they see there is a rush. Three or four years ago they 
 would not do this, but now they are more pleased to w(jrk when they get more wages in 
 the cannery, and they will work during that jieriod when salmon is so plentiful. This 
 is the real reason why we would like to have these licenses, or rather that I would. 
 
 ii. Y'^ou found last year forty licenses necessary to run one cannery? — A. Y'^es ; I 
 run Ijetween sixty and seventy boats and they didn't get near supplied. There was 
 more fish come than we e.xpected. I took off a nund)er of Indians and limited men who 
 were fishing down for a day or two till we got over the run, it only haitpened one or 
 two days .somehow like that. 
 
 Q. And you think it necessary to have that number of boats every year ?— A. 
 Well, we would like to have that privilege. This year I had a lot of br "^s and gave 
 them to persons who coukl not get a license — some took then> on shares — that is the 
 great trouble many of th3 best fishermen could not get a license. 
 
 Q. But you would like to get foi'ty ? — A. Yes ; but out of that forty I doii't fish 
 myself more than fifteen or sixteen. 
 
 Q. The rest you let out ?— A. Yes : I give them to good men. 
 
 Q. Do you get fish cheaper that way ? -A. ^^'ell, it just ilepends — sometimes you 
 get them cheaper. 
 
 By Mr. Wi/vwf : 
 
 Q. Have you an idea of the gross nund)er of l)oats fished on the river in 1890. 
 A.— No. 
 
118 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. The limit was 500 — h(»w far did it exceed that number ? — A. T don't know. I 
 never knew it exceeded that at all. 
 
 Q. Are you not aware it exceeded that nuniber by forty or fifty? — A. Well, I 
 don't know — T heard so — I believe there were some licenses came out after the others 
 were taken up. 
 
 t 
 Jiy Jh: Arvixt7'oni/ ; 
 
 Q. You would be willing to do with these licenses if the river was thrown open to 
 all 6o?if«^'f/'; fishermen to get licenses? — A. Yes; and 1 think it an impossibility to 
 over-fish the river under the present system as fished, as you ai-e confined to j^ill-nets 
 and limited tt) tidal waters. 
 
 1 n 
 
 ■ I • 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wifmof : 
 
 Q. What is wor.se than gill-nets, then ? - A. I dont know of anything worse that 
 could be applied in this river, for fish that enter the Fraser Kiver aic beyond the reach 
 of the fishermen and protected after they enter the river, the water is cold and the fish 
 swim fast and they go right past us, you may say the same day they are at the sand- 
 heads they are at Yale, the difference of time, you can hardly distinguish it. 
 
 Bif Mr. Aniisfi'on;/ : 
 
 Q. You say under the limits they could not be decreased? — A. Well, under the 
 regulations we can only bar one-third of the river. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Is that olxserved ? — A. AVell, yes it is, I think. « 
 
 Q. It is something like the oftal, perhaps? — A. Well, 1 don't know, you would 
 want a steamboat, perh.aps, to have it perfectly oljserved. 
 
 Q. Well, you say you cannot adhere to laws, or won't adhere ? — A. Well, I main- 
 tain these laws are framed without consulting the peculiarities of the liver. It is 
 impossible to over-fish the river with the loose drift-net — the river is wider in one place 
 than another, and your net is drifted at three and four and five miles an hour, and you 
 get in places where you cannot use it. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Arinstromj : 
 
 Q. Do you think the fishery in clanger of being exiiausted, if all fishermen get 
 licenses ? — A. No ; I don't think there is any 
 
 daiiger. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wihnot :\ 
 
 Q. Then how did the fishermen come to the conclusion about the limitation of 350 
 and 150 ? — A. Well, that limitation was asked for for a number of years, and I don't 
 think I was in favour of it any moi'e than now. 
 
 Q. It was at the instigation of the canners ? — A. Well, T don't know as it was at 
 their instigation altogether — reports were taken frcmi the i5oard of Trade, and I think 
 that it was the Board of Trade that sent these representatives— the Board of Trade of 
 Victoria. 
 
 Q. Do they rule the fisheries of the Frasei- River? — A. No ; but they may have a 
 word to say — but there were representations made that were not wholly correct. It 
 was correct in this way, they showed that the pack was much less than years before. 
 
 Q. Because of scarcity of .salmon in the river ? — A. They attributed it to that, but 
 it was not so ; the canneries were running so low because the markets were so over- 
 supplied there was no demand for them. 
 
 Q. But we don't want the markets, we are talking of fish ? — A. Well, I tell you it 
 was not scarcity of fish ; the people here have been suggesting things to the department, 
 but this thing of over-fishing the rivei' has been pressed upon the mind of the Govern- 
 ment, and it is that which has hampeied the industry here. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 119 
 
 the 
 
 Q. J{ut you ask for a limit of 500 VK)ats, to be divided amony oaiuioi-s and outside 
 tisiiermen ; then twenty Vx)ats was the limit for tanners — now you want twenty-tive 
 or thirty — thei-efore fish must he <^ettin^ scarcer ? — A. Those ai-e not facts. 
 
 Q. 1 merely mention thin to show that there must bo some cause now why you ask 
 tor twenty-five or forty ?— A. 1 dispute the facts. 
 
 Q. r>ut if you requii-e tw(!nty-tive or forty nets now to do woi-k which you did 
 with twenty, there must be a scarcity of Hsh?-~A. Hut this su;,'gestion never came 
 from this association : F don't know what private indivi(hials have done, but T don't 
 know as it has ever been stated that twenty boats were <|uite sutticient. 
 
 i-i. Then you do not agree with the general opinions of the association? — A. In 
 some 1 do, but in this I do not. They might have Ijeen satisfied with twenty licenses 
 in these last few years, if the i-iver was left unlimited. 
 
 Q. Well, it is just simply this, all they were entitled to was twenty licenses? — A. 
 Last year was the first time it came down to twenty licenses ; the year before f had 
 thirty-eight or thirty-nine. 
 
 Q. You think it nece.ssary to have a greater nund)er of licenses than twenty to 
 cai'ry out your work l — A. Yes ; because the industry is getting greater all the time, 
 and moie going into it. Fish ai-e just as plentiful as ever they were, but more capital 
 is going into the business every yeai-. 
 
 Q. Do you think anyone should put up a cannery who likes ? A. Well, it is all 
 right — there should be no lestriction. 
 
 Q. Then factories should be unlimited in number, the outside fishermen should be 
 unlimited in number — then what about the limit of licenses to canners ? A. They 
 should be unlimited — if they were I might not take ten or twenty licenses, but I want 
 t!ie privilege of doing it to get Indian laboui- around my cannery — the whole oljject is 
 really to enable us to get the Indian labour. 
 
 Q. You consider the fishing should be thrown open to all — as many canneries as 
 people like to build and all fishermen to get licenses ? -A. Yes; it means viitually 
 tlu'owing the river open. 
 
 Q. Then you don't think too much fishing can hurt the river? -A. No ; it has never 
 (lone so yet, and I don't think if it is thrown open there would l)e more fishing done. 
 
 Q. No matter how much fishing is doni.' you cannot injuie the river ? - A. Y^es ; 
 there is nothing to show injury yet — it might be ovei' done perhaps, but keeping in 
 \iew the present modes of fishing and the limitation that we cannot go beyond the tidal 
 waters, it is not at all likely, but when these limits are on you cannot over-fish it you 
 may get some years when it is easier getting supplied up the river, that it may be profitable 
 to fish higher up and especially now when tliey are working the cold-storage system and 
 shipping fish all over the world. 
 
 Q. Then you think that a wholesale throwing open of the river would not l)e in- 
 jurious to the river? — A. No; undei- present laws it would not l)e. The fish in 
 twenty-four hours are beyond our leach -the river is alive with ;';em. 
 
 Q. Well, the ii'xt nuitter is, aretlie fish pretty nuichthe same veryyear ? -A. .Some 
 years they are larger and some smaller, but there is not much difference — some years 
 when there is a heavy run they are smaller. 
 
 Q. What ave'. age seven or eight pounds ? A. Thereabouts. 
 
 Q. Do you put more than one pound in a can ? A. As a ride sometimes there is 
 less when you are canning you cannot weigh them all and the light ones come back 
 to thp canners' loss - they would a\erage about eight.'en or nineteen ounces to the tin. 
 
 i}. How many cans do you get to the fish ? A. Well, it will run between four and 
 ti\e. 
 
 Q. So with an ordinary sized fisli you can four or five cans ami the rest is thrown 
 iiway as oflPal — of an eight pound fish there would be four of meat and three of offal ? — 
 A. Yes ; sometimes you may get them larger or smaller T don't know exactly the pro- 
 portion — I have weighed them but I have not gone into the thing so close. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of the quantity of offal going into the river in anv one year ? 
 --A. No. 
 
 Q. Would you be astonished if I told you it was many million pounds weight ? - A. 
 No ; but it has been very much exaggerated. 
 
120 
 
 MARINE AND FIBHKRIES. 
 
 ii- Howso? — A. Well, it hiis Immmi i'xagj,'t'rat('(l — how much hlood is there in a 
 fish? Then there is always more or less water insiile them well, all these things should 
 be tak«Mi into consideration — it is a good ileal of guess work with anyone. 
 
 'II: 
 
 A. Yes: T should 
 
 lit/ Mr. Annntromj : 
 Q. Do you thiidv tlieie is half a pound of blood in a tish ? 
 think so. 
 
 Q. Then that should be deducted from the offal ? — A." Yes. 
 
 lijf Mr. Wi/niof : 
 
 Q. Would you be astonished to hear that you had put .'1,.'J7.'J,01l* pounds of otial into 
 the river in 188'J ? -A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Well, how do you say the figures are exaggerated ? A. Well, take the fjuantities 
 of fish, and I am sure it is exaggerated. 
 
 Q. Well, but take the tish eaught they made so many cans, and the balance would 
 be ofj'al, would it not? A. Yes; l)ut it is all guess work — you know the numbei' of 
 cases made, but you cannot tell how many fish you put into them. 
 
 Q. Well, but you say youi- fish average so and so and you make so many cans ? A. 
 Well, in some cases you make more -some seasons you don't average eight fish to the 
 case. The way to do is to bring it right through, one .season with another. 
 
 Q. But when you state public prints are exaggerated you should be able to prove it? 
 —A. Well, it is taken from report, not from ol)servation. 
 
 Q. It is taken fioni your own reports ? — A. Well, we don't get them. 
 
 Q. Don't you sell your cans by so many numbers? -A. By so many numbers, but 
 that (loes not represent the whole work -you cannot get it unless you go down and .see 
 it. 
 
 Q. About .saw-du.st —you think it injurious to the river? A. I don't think it in- 
 jurious to salmon — the .saw-du.st between here and the mouth of the river because sal- 
 mon don't lie here they are not in any poi>ls — they are pas.sing hundreds of miles 
 beyond them. 
 
 Q. But, you must remendjer this Connuission is not dealing solely with the Fraser 
 River, hut with all matters regarding the fisheries of Biitish Columbia- -now do you not 
 think saw-dust injurious ?— A. If it lodges on the spawning grounds, undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. How can you prevent it lodging on the spawning grounds? — A. Well, in British 
 Columbia I don't think it could get on the spawning beds unless it ran up-hill. It is not 
 proper to put it in streams where it can lodge upon spawning grounds, but I am not .so 
 rabid as to say that it should not be put into streams where it does not do injury. 
 
 Q. liut it might be injurious in one stream and not in another? — A. Well, I think 
 it would be injuriour, in all streams, because where there is saw-dust it hurts the .spawning. 
 
 Q. What are your views as regards fishing with seines ? — A. Well, fishii;g with 
 seines is the only way that has been attempted to fish in salt w.ater inlets and bays as 
 yet — they could not work them in the Fraser River. 
 
 Q. But as compared for de.structive qualities- -the gill-net and seine? — A. I don't 
 think either very destructive — you could not use a seine in the Fraser River. I expect 
 what you want to get at is that seines take all the young fish that are unfit for food. 
 
 Q. Do you think they do ?— A. No, I don't ; but I never had much experience with 
 them — I never saw iiny young fish. 
 
 Q. But if ii seine is hauled around the coasts of creeks and rivers, 'S it more injuious 
 than a floating net ? — No ; I think both equally the same. It is not injurious, it is only 
 a mode of catching them ; if fish have to be caught either is good — it is a question which 
 is the cheapest way of catching them. 
 
 Q. Then if both are alike, all your gill-nets are seines ? A. No, they are not ; you 
 require smaller mesh for seines — it is for catching fish without gilling them. When our 
 fi.sh are coming plentifully they are striking the nets everywhere. If it was clear water 
 in the river you could not catch them with gill-nets. 
 
 Q. Then it is muddy water that gives the opportunity of getting caught in gill- 
 nets? — A. No ; but it makes them cheaper in that way. We could not catch them with 
 gill-nets if the river was clear on the shoals, i^rc, and the muddy water makes it unpro- 
 fitable to work seines. 
 
BRITtSH OILUMUIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 121 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. T><t you thiitk tlie canneries a beiietit to the fmliaii j)opii!iitioii of tho jifoviiu'e? 
 — A. Well, T Ix'lieve they arc ; it is work the Indian naturally likes to work at and 
 they get ^'ood wages and whole families work at it. if the Indians (le|)arted f roni work- 
 ing at that, 1 think there would he nothing for them but to go hack to reservations and 
 let the (lovernment feed them. There are a great number of them, and if the indiauH 
 were not here we eould not put up oui' work like we do. 
 
 By Mr. IVdmot ; 
 
 Q. Are Indians and fndian women employed exclusively f- -A. No; not one-half 
 or one-tenth —the most are Indian boys, their and)ition is to be fishermen. I tind now 
 the Indians are only tof» willing to get in the cannery and work there as long as there 
 is work for them. We want to get everyone to work in the canneiy during the run of 
 tish as long as we can get tish, but if we cannot get Hsh we put them out to tish again. 
 
 Q. Suppose the I'^asei- IJiver clear limpid watei'- wiiuld you latch more tish with a 
 gill-net oi' seine? A. Well, it would throw the gill-net fishing into night work, because 
 you would get very few in daylight, and it woidd allow the salmon to congregate in 
 shoals together and with seines you would get more tish at less expense, f believe in 
 fishing with a seine in clear water where you can .see it would be the best way, but in 
 muddy water you cannot use it so profitably. 
 
 Q. Then a seine is a moi'e destructive engine than a gill-net? A. Well, you will 
 find in iJritish Columbia more seines than gill-nets : they throw the seine out into the 
 rivei', stretched out, and watch for tish going uji. It is a (|uestion of economy which is 
 best to do. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close .season ? A. Well, T think tUe present rule for 
 the weekly close .season is as good as can be made- from six o'clock Saturday morning 
 to six o'clock Sunday night. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be injurious t<» your interest to extend the time to twelve 
 o'clock Sunday night? — A. Yes; I would rather have it to six o'clock Monday morn- 
 ing than twelve o'clock Sunday night, but if you make it twelve o'clock Sunday night, 
 make it bt^gin at twelve o'clock Satui'day noon. 
 
 Q. Well, I think your views are correct ; from bhe moral point of view what do 
 you say ? — A. Well, look at the great trouble you will have getting the boats out ; the 
 people would have to be around in the eveninr if you made it twelve o'clock Sunday ; 
 it would evade the carrying out of the law and be very disagreeable. 
 
 Q. I think your views very correct that fishing might connneiu'e on Monday morn- 
 ing ? — A. The question is whether would the Sabbath ol).servation be beneficial, and it 
 is a question for the Government ; it is the fii'st time that 1 have heard it advocated by 
 the Government to take Sunday. 
 
 Q. Well, I think you will tind statutory enactments that work shall not be done 
 on Sunday — emanating from both the Provincial and Dominion Governments, if T am 
 not mistaken ? — A. Well, I don't know that. 
 
 Q. You think then the Sunday close time all right ? — \. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you thnik of an annual clo.se season ? — A. Well, an annual close 
 season in British Columbia, and the Fraser River i^articularly, it would be very hard 
 to keep — we have so many ditl'ei'ent kinds of salmon heie. 
 
 Q. Do you have a clo.se season now ? — A. Y'^es. 
 
 Q. When?— A. When fish are done; they make a cl.>^t; season for themsehes. 
 When the canneries commence they tish for a vei-y short portion of the season, but 
 the great difiiculty is, we have five diflbrent kinds of .salmon here and they don't all 
 run at the same time. There are tish caught in the ri\ er that should not be caught. 
 
 Q. What are they? -Well, there is the early spring salmon, the sockeye, the hump- 
 back, and everything else. 
 
 Q. Y''ou .say the spring salmon should not be caught? — A. At certain seasons. 
 
 Q. What seasons ? — A. Well, after they are down in condition and are not good 
 food. 
 
 Q. When they have spawned ? — A. No ; before they spawn. 
 
122 
 
 MARINE AND K[8IIERIE8. 
 
 Q. NVIh'Ii WKuId tliat Im-.'— A. In the liittcr jHiit of Aii<,'ust iiixl niHy part of 
 S»'j)t('iiil»»'r. 
 
 <i. Then tlioy should be preserved in August and S»'pteniber? A. Well, sometime 
 about that. 
 
 ii. They are nihuing tlie wliole season throu^'ii ,' - A. No; but you will ^'et theiu 
 after that, but not plentifully. At that tinie you will be eatehing th(> sockeyes, but 
 they ai'e not ;,'ootl. 
 
 Jif/ Mr. Aiiiistnmg : 
 
 i}. What time should you not cateh the sj>i'in<,' salmon.' A. Well, about the 
 middle of September. 
 
 i}. For how lontj ? A. I'ntil the foUowinj^ sprinj;, April. 
 
 lijl Mr. Wihnnt : 
 
 I h 
 
 <?. 
 
 a pntpei' dose season for .soekeye?- A. Well, 
 -A. Well, not until the first of 
 
 What w()uld you consider 
 they run until the middle of .\u<,'ust. 
 
 Q. And until when should they not be caught? 
 next July again, 
 
 <}. The next most valuable tish 's the eohoe, is it not,' — A. Well, yes ; it is the 
 next best eommereial fish. 
 
 Q. Should they have a close season? — A. All should have dos" seasons. 
 
 Q. What for cohoes ? — A. Well, 1 cannot think of these things all at once well, 
 they conie in along after the latter part of the spi'ing salmon, about the l;")tli Se})tember, 
 and they hold out longer than any run we have, except it be the spring .salmon. 
 
 Q. Then, the close time for spring salmon wmdd cover cohoes, too ? A. Well, 
 you might make it for cohoes all the year, excepting two months, beginning the middle 
 of September September. October, and the fii'st two weeks of Novendier- this is the 
 time you have them in good condition, but you caiuiot fish for (jne without catching the 
 other. 
 
 Q. Well, but yon couhl pitch them away, as you do with white salni' A. 
 
 AVell, that is what is ilone with them all. 
 
 Q. Have you any objection to the present limits for fishing in the Frasei .iver. 
 Do you agree to a stoppage of fishing from (Jarry Hush out / A. No; it is from 
 (lariy Bush out that we have the greatest area of fishing ground. 
 
 Q. The best fishing ground? A. Well, you have a larger field to work in there. 
 
 lii) Mr. Wihnot: 
 
 Q. Well, suppose a mile from (Jai'i-y Bush outwards was prevented from being 
 fished, what effect would that have? A. The fishing is not d(me altogether in the 
 channel the fishing is done nearly from Point Roberts to Point Grey, going outside as 
 far as they can get tish to work with, as there is a larger area of ground. 
 
 Q. You think it injudicious to shoiten the limits of the river .'A. Yes ; I don't 
 think the present limits interfere with anyone much. 
 
 (}. Then, the present limits are all I'ight ? A. \''es, 1 think they are about right. 
 
 (.^. Tlie present limits extend up to Sumas. The lecommendation now is that it 
 be shortened down to Pitt Hivei" and Hammond, the present regulations say "tidal 
 water,"' now this is with a view that it will prevent in the ^'uture more canneries being 
 built up to the Sumas, where fish would be annihilated, and so the department says 
 we will shorten up the distance down to Hannnond and Pitt Kiver. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Ewen, who, in your opinion, should get licen.se.s. Should everybody 
 get licenses, if British subjects ? A. Yes; let any man. even not a British subject, 
 we have the same pri\ilege with United States citizens, for fishei-nien can go down to 
 the Coluud)ia Hiver and fish. (Voice from the audience.) No ; it cannot be done. 
 
 Air. EwKN (continuing.) ]f the limitation is kept (m I should certainly say only 
 British subjects should get licenses because when a limit is put oil they work into 
 parties hands who are not as deserving as others. 
 
BRITISH CO^cJMJIA FIBIIKRY COMMISSION. 
 
 128 
 
 of 
 
 lie 
 
 I}. Do you think th<^ tmiisfer of Ureases correct, nn<l is it ri;,'lit to IwiittT tlicin ! 
 — A. Well, I (lont know whether i'i;,'ht or not I have no objection it peilm|»s would 
 not he fair, hut it would allow the tish to he cau>iht in tlie country. 
 
 Q. Otherwise is it just that a man who conies to this country to settle cannot ;^et a 
 license should <»theis barter them out to him ? — A. No ; that is not justice, but 1 main- 
 tain if the limit is taken ofl' no harm would be done. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Ewen, we hav»« had a long discussion with you — unless you have 
 'something (^Ise to say we are (juite satisfied I A, NN'ell, have you been doing anything 
 about the sea fisheries? Th(n'(! are a number of HshermtMi who are more acijuainted with 
 ■ialt water tishing than with fresh water tishing on the Fraser Miver it has not been 
 touched upon. There has been a discrimination of licenses hert; in ilritish Columbia 
 that has not betiii fair. 
 
 Q. Do you think a man on the Fraser Uiver shouu'. ;>;"• tv"Mty dollars and a man 
 on the Skeena or Naas pay only five dollars? — A. No ; I dtjii't think it fair. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Should Hshernien with boat and net pay the same price as cannerymen ?— A. 
 Yes ; and when this twenty dollar license fee was suggested, and T believe I was (tiie of 
 the principal ones for doing it, it was intended the fee should be the same. 
 
 Q. Do you think the licen.se fee should be the same all round ?— A. Yes; I think 
 it should be the s.iiiie there is more competition here and less on the Skeena and other 
 rivers. I think t',ie canning industry should be hampered as little as possible : there 
 lias been a great deal of canned salmon put up for a number of years and the consumj)- 
 tiim is not etpi d to the supply, and it has been done for the purpose of foicing it on the 
 world, but people are going away from eating canned goods rather than taking moic of 
 it, and I think it not wise to hamper the industry. Here we should not be too much 
 cramped we have Alaska and other places to compete with, and IWitish Columbia 
 would be shut out of the market altogether if you hamper us too much. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Would oOO Ixiats catch more than 100? -A. Oh, yes ; I suppose so. 
 
 l^. Now, if yt»u gave unlimited tishing heie to everybody would it not increase the 
 catch / — A. Well, 1 don't think it wouhl increase the catch nor increase the number of 
 boats tishing on the river — that is my belief — but it would make it satisfactory to every- 
 one employed in the industry. People would not take more licenses than they recjuire, 
 if free to all. I might not want ten licen.ses, if plenty outside, and certainly 1 would 
 not put up a great (juantity of salmon unless I could sell them. 
 
 Q. But if another (Government allows the Alaska fishermen to bring their fisheries 
 to an end as fast as possible, should we not husband ours here .' — A. I don t know w hat 
 it is in Alaska, but 1 know the Columbia Uiver is similar to the Fraser Uiver and sal- 
 mon are as plentiful as ever they were. 
 
 Q. Yes ; but the United States Government are instituting means whereby they 
 shall not be fished as much as possible ? 
 
 Jiy Mr. Anni*trony : • 
 
 Q. Y'^ou say that if the fishing business here is hampered you will not be able to 
 compete with the industries of other countries. How are we to know that unless you 
 give us figures as to cost of putting up a case of fish, i^'c. It has l)een stated here that 
 you can aflFord to put up a cannery for 85,000, and by getting twenty licenses can make 
 820,000 — how are we to know if that is correct, or that you are hampered? — A. Can- 
 neries that are up here, already in existence, and under present regulations, cannot 
 work up to their expenditure. 
 
 By Jiv. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Well, how is it you build additional canneries every year ? 
 an additional cannery last year because T got cornered. 
 
 A. Well, I built 
 
^p 
 
 124 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 />// Mr. Armstrong: 
 
 Q. Yes ; to get more licenses ? — A. Well, T was under n bond foi' §40,000, and 
 these t^yenty license's cost nie .*] 6,000, whicli was money thiow away for no use. 
 
 Q. But men say you made 82"),000? -A. Well, I knew T threw that away; it is 
 impossible to tell you what you make or what you lose in the season. 
 
 Q. I want you to give an average ; surely you can do that ? — A. Well, not very- 
 well ; in the past five or six years the canneries have made from 10 to 20 per cent 
 upon their investments ; they might have made 10 per cent : last year there is a great 
 possil)ility there was :.'0 or 30 per cent loss. 
 
 Q. Well, we want lO know what it costs in ordei- to know if any incund)rances 
 .should be put on the cainieries 1 — A. But incumbrances are put on as the ort'al and the 
 limitations that are put on. 
 
 /)'// Mr. Wiliiiot : 
 
 (^. lint this the oH'al — is not an incund)rance, because the law has never been put 
 in force ? A. But we ai-e afraid that it will be. 
 
 7i.y Jfr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Yt)U see, as the law stands at the present day, you are liable to a Hne if 
 any person lays complaint before a magistrate, and if you want us to recommend this 
 matter to the Government we must get figures to know 1 — A. But if this expense is put 
 on us we will have to shut the cannery ; this otl'al question is the most serious question 
 put against us. 
 
 Bjf Mr. W if mot : 
 Q. But you have never had any trouble? — A. No; but we expect to. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. A rinxtrotig : 
 
 Q. liut we must have tigui-es to show ? — A. Well, let the tJovernment j)ut the law 
 in foi'ce and let them see how it will act ; then they will see if it will be beneficial to 
 the country : T am not sj>eaking personally, but for the ])rovince and the industiy. I 
 might si)eak the other way if T spoke pei'sonally, not only on oHal i)ut everything else. 
 
 Jil/ Mr. Wl/mof : 
 
 (}. Well, i\[r. Kwen, have you anything else to lay before us?— A. No ; I will give 
 way to someone else. 
 
 ALBERT FADKU, of Vancouver, a British Canadian, a resident of British 
 Columbia for three years and nine months, and a fish dealer, was duly sworn. 
 
 ]\Ir. Faoku. — T represent now the British Columlna Fishing and Trading C( mi pany, 
 limited. 
 
 /yy Mr. Wihnof : 
 
 i}. Have you anything special to lay before us ? -A. Well, aiiout the close season ; 
 I don't (juite understand that the close season means outside of the Fraser Itiver or 
 not. 
 
 Q. It is applicable all over British Columbia ? A. Well, 1 think it would efi'ect the 
 salt water fishermen. 
 
 t^. They are tisliing where?- A. Anywhere in saltwater; I mean outside of rivers, 
 on the coast ; theie are lots of salmon taken Ity hooks, and some by gill-nets, and it is 
 for local trade and also for some trade shii>ments to t'o mountains ; T think it would 
 eftect the traile generally. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 125 
 
 Q. Well, sir, you think thon that any close season would aiFect trade in relation to 
 catching lish on the coast ? — A. Yes ; I do. 
 
 By Jfr. AniistroiKj : 
 
 Q, Do you mean weekly or annual closa season ? — A. The annual close season. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You think it injurious to enforce the weekly close season ? — A. T think the pre 
 sent law in that regard very good. 
 
 Q. In your capacity do you represent canners 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 y. Simply the ordinary lishermen on the coast ? A. Yes ; we have fishermen t'l-om 
 whom we buy and we have a steamer in the deep water fishery. AV^e applied for licenses 
 to go on this river last year but could not get them, and we think ourselves entitled to 
 ten licenses as well as freezers to allow us to compete with them in eastern markets. 
 
 Q. At present you have no licenses 1 — A. No, sii- ; and our trade is hampei'cd 
 accordingly. 
 
 Q. What fish do you deal in? — -A. All kinds, halibut anil salmon principally. 
 
 By Mr. A rmstrnng : 
 
 Q. Do you get many cod ? — A. Yes, several ; but there is not n)uch demand for 
 them just now. 
 
 By Mr. Wllniof : 
 
 Q. Well, as regards this deep-sea fishery the license would not apply ? -A. No ; 
 but I Sim speaking of salmon in salt water, and talking of seine fishing in rivers— in 
 clear water — now, that is the only way you caiv catch fish in the rivers up the coast. 
 1 he rivers there are just as clear as can be and salmon will not gill at all. 
 
 Q. Have you any information from other parts of the world 1 — A. Yes ; 1 came 
 from Nova Scotia- -the Atlantic coast. 
 
 Q. Are you not aware they fish in these limpid waters with gill-nets? -A. Yes? 
 but salmon is a leading fish ; at the mouths of the rivers they play around for several 
 days and will not get acrt)ss over twenty feet — if they strike a net they sheei' off from 
 it. I have tried a trap the same as we use in tlie east and I have not caught a salmon 
 in the trap. 
 
 Q. Do you know Bay des Chaleurs or Bay of Fundy ? — ^A. Yes ; T know the Bay 
 of Fundy, but they have very swift tide there ; the water is not very clear and runs 
 I'apidly. 
 
 Q. You think the Pacific water more clear than the Atlantic? — A. Well, I don't 
 know as it is. 
 
 Q. But the salmon act differently ? — A. Well, you know our fisli in the east v,'ill 
 come and stoj) for nothing, but here it is different — salmon will fly arfiund in coves and 
 creeks after the small herring ; the water is very full of small bait and they will not 
 mesh as they will in the east. I have tried it in all ways, and (is F say l)rought out a 
 tra))-net, but we could not catch them at all., 
 
 Q. ]iut the last witness says fish cannot f-e and run into anything ? — A. That is 
 in the Fraser Uiver -that is right. 
 
 ;,J But in (iH'at Britain they catch sa:i lun in gill-nets? — A. T know, and on the 
 Atlantic we do the same. 
 
 Q. But liere you must use a seine ? — A. Yes : I have been uj) the I'oast pretty often 
 fuid ci)ul(l name several ri\ers 1 have been into and in whicii it would be no use to set 
 a gill-net at all, they would not mesh. 
 
 Q. Therefore you think that to prevent seining at the mouths of lixcrs would be 
 injudicious to you and the peopl(> you deal with ? A. Yes; in clear rivers. 
 
 Q. But we cannot distinguish one as a dirty and one as a clean river? A. Well, 
 you can easily find t)Ut there ai'e very few dii-ty rivers. 
 
 Q. Therefore it would apply generally? — A. Yes ; there are not over three or four 
 where you can gill .salmon. 
 
126 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Do persons who fish for you haul seines in the rivers? — A. Well, we have not 
 bought any yet from seines. • 
 
 Q. Then why are you giving evidence of the inability to catch salmon with gill- 
 nets ? — A. AVell, we have tried gill-nets — I am speaking now of the river from Alert 
 Bay where gill-nets have been tried time and time again and never with success — it is 
 a limpid river and I have been up it, right up to the lake. Now on a river like the 
 Frasei" River you would not want a seine because the salmon gill. 
 
 Q. If they used the seine here would not they catch more fish than with the gill- 
 net ? — A. Well, yes, 1 think they would — if your seine took the bottom, of course, they 
 would. 
 
 Q. But a seine generally does take the bottom ? — A. Yes, of course- the Fraser 
 River T am not so well acquainted with, V)ut in smaller rivei's T know that is the only 
 chance to catch them. 
 
 Q. The seining you propose is it on the river proper or on the coast? — A. At the 
 mouth of rivers. 
 
 Q Just where fish congi-egate to go up to spawn ? — A. Well, of cour.se, they have 
 to come there to get in the rivers. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Are they large rivers — how wide at the mouth ? — A. 8ome rivers 200 feet. 1 
 should .say from' 200 to aOO feet. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And you draw the seine within that 200 feet and you take in all the river ? 
 — A. Well, a seine drawing on each side would take in — well, all the mouth. 
 
 Q. How many meshes in the bag of the net 1 — A. W^ell, it runs from five up. It 
 just depends where you fish. Seines would run from ten to twenty feet deep. 
 
 Q. And what length ? — A. Twenty to thirty and seventy-five fathoms. 
 
 Q. The lead lines always dragging o'l bottom and the corks on top, forming a bag- 
 as you draw it in ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What mesh do you use? — A. From two to four inch. 
 
 Q. Do you catch sockeyes there ? — A. Well, those fish are caught in one river 
 there. The only river we seine for the cannery is the Minkish. T don't know if any 
 are used north of that or not. 
 
 Q. Have you been present when seines are drawn? — A. Yes ; I have been present. 
 
 Q. What fish ai'e caught, principally ? — A. Sockeyes during their season. I have 
 not been present when flrawn ■ 
 
 Q. What other fish ? A. I have seen snuiU fish^ — herring, fiounders, and anything 
 coming within the compass of the net would be brought in. 
 
 Q. VV^hat sizes of salmon ? — A. Well, about the same sizt 
 
 Q. Seven to eight pounds ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are not smaller salmon, from two to three jiounds, caught there ? — 
 never heard of any. 
 
 Q- How are .small salmon exposed on the markets for sale — are they 
 seines ? — A. I dont' know. 
 
 Q. Have you any on your stalls ? — A. AVell, a few are brought to me by fishermen. 
 
 Q. What time of the year are they brought ? — A. I have seen them last March — 
 .some in February, a few -T never saw many on the market. 
 
 Q. Or you don't know how many are caught with seines at the mouth of rivers ? - 
 A. 1 don't think many at any time of the year. I think small salmon come in when no 
 one is fishing. 
 
 Q. You catch herring? — A. Yes. 
 
 y. And colachans ? — A. No ; the meshes are too big, and then it is only in a few 
 rivers where the colachans are. 
 
 i). What is \\\e size oi herring caught? — A. Small — eight to ten inches. 
 
 (j. Then the net would catch small salmon of eight or ten inches ? — A. Yes ; it 
 would. 
 
 vs on the Fraser River. 
 A. No; 1 
 
 caught in 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FrSHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 -/ 
 
 Q. And if small salmon of trout were going in or out the mouth of these rivers, 
 they would be caught '! -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by ti'out ? — A. I mean rivei- trout. 
 
 Q. Do you know small salmon from trout ? A. Yes : T know tliem, but they never 
 draw for herring at the mouths of rivers with inch mesh 
 
 Q. Do you mean inch extension measure ? A. Yes ; extension mesh. Two to 
 four inch are generally used in the mouths of rivers. 
 
 Q. And would foui' inch catch salmon? — A. Oh, no; there are \ery few seines 
 used on the coast. 
 
 Q. But they may grow to a great extent and create injurious results ? A. T don't 
 think they would be an injury in deep water fisheries. 
 
 Q. Then if the use of seines were f(jrbidden at the mouth of rivers, couhl they not 
 catch salmon farthei' away? A. No, sir ; you see there could be no salmon taken at all 
 in these rivers, unless taken by a seine. 
 
 Q. Why 1 — A. Because they will not gill. 
 
 Q. But why should seines be drawn at the mouth of rivers ? A. Well, I will show 
 you. See here — (here witness drew a pencil diagram on paper, to illustrate his meaning, 
 and presented to the Chairman.) 
 
 Q. But it would not catch more Hsh that way l~\. Oh, y«s ; of course it would : 
 but parent tish have plenty of chance to get up tlje river. You see, it takes, say, tliree 
 hours to throw the .seine, and then they have thewliole night for getting up. 
 
 Q. You never throw the seine at night 1 A. Well, T never draw :ny seine at night. 
 I cannot see that the tishermen up north can make a success of tishing there for .salmon 
 without seines. It is impossible for them to do it. 
 
 Q. Well, that was the way in all other places in England and Scotland, &c. ? -A. 
 But do you not know that an Englisinnan gave away part of our country because tlie 
 salmon would not take the lly (laughter). Well, that was the way when I cauie out 
 here. I put down my trap and could not understand why T could not catch any salmon. 
 I have set a gill-net for 250 miles up the coast, and T have set a trap up as far north as 
 Cape Scott (north-western part of V^ancouver Tshand), and never caught a salmon with 
 either of them. Salmon will not lead here, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say salmon always run to the east? — A. Not here; 
 way. I said on the Atlantic coast they run east, but here they do not 
 
 Q. But suppose a nortii and south river what would they do ? 
 what I mean (ilkistrating his meaning l)y pencil diagram on paper). 
 
 they I'un every 
 
 A. Well, this is 
 1 have had trap 
 
 nets and considei* nets and salmon on the A tlantic coast quite different to the ones here. 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do you think salmon knows its native river ' A. I do ; and they go to that 
 river and no other, because [ see there is a little ditl'erence between the salmon here 
 and the salmon north. You notice some difference between the Fra--ir Bixcr salmon 
 and the northern salmon. 
 
 Bji Mr. miiiwt: 
 
 Q. No matter then whether the river runs from east, or west, oi- north, he would 
 go in that river? — A. Yes; but our mackerel do the same thing; they follow down 
 the American coast. As regards tishing for salmon, though, on out coasts here T 
 think T am pretty correct as far as my experience goes from the \\ay we have had 
 our nets set, S:c. 
 
 (i. Well, then, if .salmon all go to their native rivers and wliicli is an adnntted 
 fact eveiywhei'e and a rivei' is '200 yards wide at the mouth, hauling a seine for 200 
 yanls at the moutii of the stream, would it not interfere with the migi-ation of salmon 
 going up that river to breed ? — A. Yes ; to a certain extent ; T don't believe that every 
 salmon that goes in the river spawns. 
 
 Q. Why should they leave theii- feeding grounds and go up rivers if not for some 
 purpose 1 — A. Well, they follow the Hock. 
 
 . 
 
128 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 What is the usuiil averuge iiiesli of gill-nets there '? -A. Five and seven-eighths. 
 
 ii- Then if an old Hsh went up and didn't feed, and went to breed, she would take 
 the smaller ones find they would wait until she was thiough and them come back ? — A. 
 Well, 1 believe so ; of course I have not had the same experience here as in the east to 
 have the same knowledge of salmon, but as far as T know I have given you my 
 experience. 
 
 Q. As salmon all freijuent their native sti'eam, and at annual periods migrate up 
 that stream, any extr.a fishing at the mouth of a river would prevent the family going 
 up then, would it not ? - A. Of course it wovdd thin them out to a certain extent, but 
 I think there are plenty of chances for enough to get up to spawn, outside of them. 
 
 Q. What is the width of the mouth of the liver you have refei'ence to ? — A. Tt is 
 quite narrow ; there is a lake further up. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do fish get up to the lake ? — A. Oh, yes ; they get up to the lake ; T have seen 
 Indians coming down from the lake with dog-salmon which they have dried ft)r their 
 own use. Now, 1 know a place where we have taken lish out where the river strikes 
 the canyon, pei'fectly black with salmon, but they went no further, and came back ; 
 they are not merchantable salmon, but very good salmon. 
 
 Q. Are these cohoes or humpbiicks ? — A. They are not just exactly humpbacks ; 
 the flesh is like the humpback, but they ai-e difierent to sockeyes and cohoes. 
 
 Q. Have you steel heads there / -A. Yes; there are steel-heads. 
 
 Q. Then these rivei's are practically the same as those down here ! A. Yes ; 
 practically much the same. 
 
 Q. This is used for gill nets 1 — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You use seines with three and four-inch mesh ? — A. Yes ; T have seen them 
 with three and four-inch mesh. 
 
 Q. Yes ; equal to two-inch mesh ; would not this be more likely to take salmon 
 than five and seven-eighths-inch mesh in a gill-net ? — A. Certainly, it would. 
 
 Q. And it would not only catch more salmon of the same size, but smaller ones 
 too ? — ^A. Well, no ; T have never seen any small ones in these northern rivers. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, but one must destroy more than the other — one floats on the surface and 
 the other drags on the Ixtttom all the time, thus a seine must be more destructive than a 
 gill-net, taking one of each .' A. Oh, yes : if you take one of each, but here is a river 
 with '200 boats in it and here one with one seine in it. 
 
 Q. lUit would not a seine l)e more destructive than a. gill-net? — A. 1 would sooner 
 take my chances with a gill-net if the water was muddy. 
 
 Q. Are not all rivers in these parts more or less muddy in certain seasons of the 
 yeai"? — A. T think it is likely they are in certain seasons of the year, but salmon may 
 not be ill those rivers at that time. 
 
 Q. What time do salmon generally enter the rivers there?- A. Well, the livers 
 north have salmon earlier than the rivers here. 
 
 (,|. I'ut the ri^■el•s you spi^ak of? — A. I am not talking of one river, I am speaking 
 of several rivers, because I know of se\eral where we woulil oj)erate if allowed. 
 
 Q. Tn what season would you oj)erate?~- A. "^riie latter jiart of <July and .\ugust. 
 
 Q. Is that the peri(td when the fish are running up river? A. Yes; they make 
 the river about that time. 
 
 ij. Is this the sockeye? A. No: we dont fish for sfx'keye wv want big spring 
 salmon for shipi>iiig east ; they don't suit for canning they have been tried but were 
 not thought well of. 
 
 Q. You want seines for catching spring salmon ? \. Yes; I wish you to under- 
 stand me we havc^ not caught any, but we desire to do so. 
 
 <,|. Then you want the use of seines, to be j)ermittc(l at mouths of rivers to calch 
 .salmon? A. Yes; in rivers with clear water. There are rivers up north that are 
 gravelly l)ottomed rivers and seines don't effect them and it would be wrong to have the 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 129 
 
 I'iver only to catch fish with gill-nets likt; in the Fraser Hiver. I have seen several rivers 
 up north, of course I have not stayed there every day to see, hut from all the inforination 
 we could gather from Indians and inhabitants we undeistand it was all clear water. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further, sir ?- A. The reason that makes me speak of tlie 
 salt water fishing is this seining is an industry for catching tish that cannot be caught 
 otherwise owing to the physical peculiarities of the streams. Then these salmon are not 
 tit for canning but would be a valuable fish if we could place them on the market ; I 
 think they will be a profitable fish for sale. We have not tested it but we intend to test 
 it and think these privileges should not be stopi)ed. We have been making a study of 
 the coast before connnencing operations. 
 
 Q. Do you undei'stand that the same tiling has occurred in other ]>arts of the 
 i-ountry ? And you have left it to better yourself in this country? -A. No ; I did not 
 come here with that intention solely. Tn the Fraser lliver there is no need of seines, 
 gill-nets do their business there, but in clear rivers with salmon it only lets the fish die 
 oH'and no one gets the benefit of them at all — they come there and breed and die off. 
 
 Q. Do they die off? — A. Well, 1 understand that a salmon flies always at four 
 years old. 
 
 Q. Do you see fish coming down after spawning? A. Oh, yes ; I have seen dog- 
 fish coming down after spawning. 
 
 Q. Tilany persons think that all fish die that go uj) the Fraser lliver ? A. Well, a 
 great many die anyway, 
 
 Q. Do you adhere to the close season up there? -A. T don't think they fish on 
 Sundays up there not for salmon. 
 
 Q. What dt> you think about the license fee ? A. Well, that is a pretty hard ques- 
 tion for me to answer. 
 
 Q. You only pay !?5 up theie? -A. Well, of course, T am not in the cannery 
 l)usiness, and it would not be right for me to interfere in the canners' business. 
 
 C^. But we want all the eviilence we can get? A. Well, I think we are all trying 
 to get licenses as low as possible, if we get them at all. 
 
 Mr. ARMSTRON(i. Mr. Chairman, this room is very close and the atmosphere 
 i>[)piessive, w have a large number in here and the i-oom is not large, and I would move 
 that we adjourn for lo minutes. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Very well, it is rather close here, this Commission is adjourned for 
 15 minutes. 
 
 IntermiHttion. 
 
 The Connnission resumed business at 4 p.m. 
 
 ^Ir. Fadicr. Mr. Chairman, before you proceed with a fresh witness F would like 
 to be allowed to state that I think fishermen holding salt-water licen.ses should be 
 allowed to come inside of the boundary to the banks of the sand ht^ads, and persona 
 with fresh-water licen,ses should not go beyond half way to the straits. 
 
 CllAHLTE CAPLIN, a Siwash, Chief of the Mu.s(|uam Indian Band, was duly 
 swoi-n. Being unable to speak Knglish sufficiently well to give evidence, Mr. John Itose 
 acted as interpreter, and was sworn to translate corre(;tly the tjuestions put to the 
 witness and his I'eplies. 
 
 The witness handed in the following note to .Mr. Ct>mmissioner Armstrong by way 
 (if introduction: 
 
 "W. ,1. Ah.mstrono, Esq., 
 
 " Dkar Sir, The bearer of this is the Tiee of the Musquam Indians and wishes to 
 express his grievance to you with regard to getting fishing licenses, itc, for himself and 
 Ins Indians. 
 
 " He seems rather e.Kcited, aiul, if possible, I svish you could give him a hearing. 
 
 " Yours respectfully, 
 (Signed) "JAMES WISE. 
 
 "New Westminster, B.C., -J.^rd February, 1892." 
 lOc— 9 
 
' "'- -T' 
 
 130 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Well, wliat is it the chief wants? — A. (After being iutei-pi-eted.) He wants to 
 tell you that it is about licenses there are lots of Indians on the same ranch as himself 
 and they can't get licenses. 
 
 Q. How is it they cannot get licenses ? -A. He says he ilon't know what is the 
 reason, bat it has been for lots of times — some Indians get licenses, but he could never 
 get one. 
 
 Q. Ask him how many Indians get licenses ? A. Ten Indians get licenses on his 
 ranch. 
 
 cami 
 
 piece 
 
 the II 
 
 A. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 Q. Ten Indians of his tribe '! A. Ten only. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Where do they fish when they get licenses ?- A. They fish always on the North 
 Arm of the Fraser. 
 
 Q. What do they fish with ? — A. With gill-nets, the same as whitemen. 
 
 Q. They follow the same regulations as are given by the department for white- 
 men ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they pay the same fee ? — A. Just the same, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they fish for their own use, or for sale to canneries? — A. They fish for 
 sale to the canneries. 
 
 Q. Are there many other Indians besides these ten who fish for the canneries, 
 without licenses ? A. Ten mo e fish for the canneries without licenses. 
 
 Q. How do chey fish without licenses? — A. They work by the day, sir. 
 
 Q. Do any work on shares ? — A. They always work by the day. 
 
 Q. What usual price per day do they get ? — A. ■*2 for a net-man, and $1.50 for a 
 boat-puller. 
 
 Q. The principal grievance is then that more Indians cannot get licenses to fish on 
 their own account .'-A. He grumbles also about the depth of the nets ; he thinks they 
 ave killing salmon too fast down at the mouth of the liver. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to canneries and fishermen as well ? — A. Well, he s.ays it 
 is not right that one should be deep and the other shallow fishing in the same 
 waters. 
 
 Q. What kind of net does his ten Indians fish with 
 Twenty-five mesh-nets ; generally thirty is about the run. 
 
 Q. How many meshes deep are the nets that he says are too deej) ? 
 the whitemen use fifty-mesh nets. 
 
 Q. They don't generally work in the same waters as whitemen ? 
 all fish in the same waters. 
 
 Q. They fished in the north arm of the Fraser? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. All the ten Indians fished there ! — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far do they fish out fi'oni the mouth of the north arm into the Straits ? 
 A. About a (juaiter of a mile from the mouth, off the Island. . 
 
 Q. From Sea Island ? How far out from Sea Island do 
 go out about two miles from the island. 
 
 Q. What would be the average of salmon caught by each 
 — A. Last summer one of them caught 5,000 during the season. 
 
 Q. Would all be sockeyes ? A. All sockeyes. 
 
 Q. Is not 5,000 a large number ?- A. Yes ; ([uite a large numbci'. 
 Q. They would not average that ? -A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What do they get per fish ? A. .^15 a hundred last year, and $10 a hundred 
 the year before. 
 
 Q. Do tliey fish for any special cannery ? A. Air. Todd s and Mr. Muhns 
 C^. Where are their canneries? — A. Mr. Todd's is on the north arm, and Mi'. 
 Mann's on Sea Island. 
 
 seine 
 
 who have licenses? — A. 
 A. :N[ostof 
 -A. Oh, yes : 
 
 thev fish? -A. Thev 
 
 Ind 
 
 lan m a season 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY C0JIMI8SI0N. 
 
 131 
 
 A. He thinks it will in course of time if the long nets are kept going 
 
 Q. Are there any otheis on the north arm besides these? —A. There is a new- 
 cannery going up there. 
 
 C^. Todd's and Munn's are close together, are they ? A. No, sir ; they are some 
 piece away, but they fish together. Mr. Munn's is on Sea Island, and Mr. Todd's on 
 the north arm. 
 
 Q. Where is the newly built one ? — A. On Lulu Island. 
 
 Q. Then does this Indian think that these deep nets are too destructive to salmon 
 — A. That is their idea ; all the Indians think they are too deep. 
 
 Q. Ask him if the nets drag near tiie bottom?- A. Yes ; they do. 
 
 Q. Do you know the ditierence between a .seine and a gill-net ? - A. Yes ; but 
 seines are no good for salmon in the Fraser. 
 
 (^>. Ask him if the working of deep gill-nets has practically the same effect as 
 seines ? — A. Oh, these both kill the salmon the same. 
 
 Q. Ask him if the salmon are scarcer or more numerous now than years ago ? — A. 
 He says they are nothing now to what they were when he was a boy. 
 
 Q. What reason does he give for that? — A. He thinks the nets are too long and it 
 stops the salmon from going up and has a tendency to kill them all. 
 
 Q. What does he think the salmon goes up the river for? — A. He knows well what 
 they come in for — they come in to lay their eggs up the rivers and he doesn't want to 
 see them killed off". 
 
 Q. Does he think the amount of fishing now, if continued, would seriously injure 
 the river fi.sh ? 
 — it will destroy the salmon in time 
 
 Q. Has he seen many dead salmon far up in rivers or in lakes ? — A. Yes ; he has 
 seen lots of dead salmon up the creeks, some floating, some half-dead, &c. 
 
 Q. At what season of the year would he .see them floating and half dead ? A. He 
 could hardly tell that, sir, they go by the moon — he says he don't like to see the salmon 
 killed and thrown into the river after caught. 
 
 Q. Ask him whether he knows if a large number are thrown into the river? A. 
 He thinks all fishermen do it —when fishermen have a great quantity and canners can- 
 not take them, they throw them overboard. 
 
 Q. Is it true that fish not adapted for the canneries are given to the Indians ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; all they require and can take away. 
 
 Q. Are the quantities so large that Indians cannot take them away, and are the 
 rest thrown away ? A. If it is not good the Indians will not take it but throw it away. 
 
 Q. To what extent, so far as numbers go, has he seen thrown away at one time ? — 
 A. If very plentiful they do it, but if not very plentiful they take care of them. 
 
 Q. Has he seen as many as a boat-load thrown away at any one time? A. He has 
 seen them thrown from a boat, but they are generally on the wharfs. 
 
 Q. What does he call a boat-load ?- A. Oh, he says he does not see the fish thrown 
 in — he sees them in the wnter. 
 
 Q. Does he think that injurious, and the offal, does he think that injurious to fish 
 or to Whitemen? — A. He thinks it injurious to the salmon beca'use the siwashes never 
 tlu'ow the guts, &c., in the water because the salmon will not cross the deposits of oH'al 
 iu the river. 
 
 Q. How does it effect the water for the Indian oi- whitemen to use ? A. He 
 thinks everybody on the Fraser River will get sick if it is continued to be thrown in the 
 water. 
 
 Q. Would it be wise on the part of the authorities to i)revent oH'al going into the 
 water? — A. He thinks it would be good if they were not thrown in. 
 
 Q. Has otfal created any sickness or (iisease among.st the Indians? -A. He says he 
 tliinks some of them get sick by drinking the water. 
 
 Q. About the early run of fish oalied spring salmon do they catch them principiJly 
 for market, or all sockeye ? A. They don't flsh generally for spring salmon. 
 
 Q. Ask him whether as a tribe do they consider the spring salmon or the socl-eye 
 the best for ther own use? A. They would rather have the spring salmon for their food 
 than the sockeye -some Indians will not look at the sockeye to eat — they don't like 
 them. 
 
 lOc— 9i 
 
132 
 
 MARINE AND FISHEBIES. 
 
 r! 
 
 w 
 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Ask him wlietler before the cauneiies were established \w\v or tlie big fishing 
 business commenced, they caught sockeyes to any extent at all, oi- preferred catching 
 the other salmon for their purposes ? — A. They always catch spring salmon for their own 
 use. 
 
 Q. Ask him if he thinks it right to prevent fishing on Sunday? — A. He thinks 
 fishing on Sunday should be stopi)ed. 
 
 Q. Is it right for the licenses when obtained by com{)anies or others, that they should 
 be re-sold oi- bartered to the Indians or any one else ? — A. I can't make him understand 
 that sii'. 
 
 Q. Oh, well ask him what time in the year do the spi-ing salmon spawn up the 
 rivers? -A. Towards the fall. 
 
 Q. And the sockeye and the spring salmon, do they all spawn at the same time? — 
 A. Yes ; he thinks they spawn about the same time. 
 
 Q. Do cohoes and humpbacks spawn about the same time as the others ?^ — A. Yes ; 
 he has seen lots of those up the river spawning at the same time. 
 
 Q. Then does bethink that all salmon go up river to spawn at oi- about the same 
 time ? — A. He thinks they do spawn about the same time. 
 
 Q. Could he answer what month. A. No ; they go V)y moons — I could not calculate 
 that. 
 
 Q. Are Indians of the belief that all salmon die and none return down ?— A. He 
 thinks they never return about one-half stay in the river swimming about until they 
 die — he thinks some return to the vsea again. 
 
 Q. Has he ever seen any salmon gi>ing down the Fraser River or the North Arm 
 a long time after the fishing .season was over? — A. He does see salmon going d(nvn, 
 and he thinks about half of them go down to salt water after they have spawned. 
 
 Q. Ask him that again to be sure? — A. Yes, he has seen them lots of tinies going 
 down, and about half, he thinks, goes down. 
 
 Q. Have Indians applied to pay for licenses? Do all want licenses? — A. Yes, 
 they all want licenses. 
 
 Q. Would they make more money than fishing for canneries or otherwise ? — A. 
 Yes, they would make more money with a license. 
 
 IP 
 
 have. 
 
 By Mr. Armstwwj : 
 Q. Have the ten who have licenses, have they boats of their own?^A. Yes, they 
 
 m 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And fish independently ? — A. Yes ; they buy nets from the canneries. 
 
 Q. Can they make their own nets or boats ?-- A. (Jh, yes ; there was no one else 
 here years ago but the. Indians. 
 
 Q. How many are there of his band? — A. ^\ belong to his ranch that is, able- 
 bodied Indians. 
 
 Q. Do they consider it safe to fish directly at the mouths of rivers? -A. He thinks 
 abf)ut one-half the salmon are caught in that way. 
 
 Ml'. Wii.MOT. Have you anything further to ask, Mr. Armstrong? 
 
 Mr. Akmsthoxo. — No; I think you have covered all the points. 
 
 Mr. "NViLMOT. Tell him we are nmcli obliged to him; that will do. We are 
 obliged to you, sii\ for your services as interpreter. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY POMMISSION. 
 
 133 
 
 FRANK WRIGHT, of New Westminster, a itive of Ontiirio, a tish dealer and 
 exporter, living in Bi'itish Columbia for six years, was duly sworn. 
 
 Bj/ Mr. Wi/niot : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what have you to state ? - A. Well, I have been in the tish business 
 about four years in the province, about two years in New Westminster, and there are 
 two opposition markets here and one had ten licenses. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by opposition markets ? — A. People engaged in the same 
 business as myself. I represent Wright Brothers. 
 
 Q. And the other firm 1 — A. W. H. Vienna, there is another mai-ket, too, Mr. 
 Lord. 
 
 Q. Do you send fish away in ice ? — A. In ice. 
 
 Q. Where are the markets you send to 1 — A. New York and Boston, and Manitoba 
 and the eastern provinces. 
 
 Q. What may have been the extent of business in any one year ? A. Well, we 
 have been so handicapped by not getting licenses that we have practically no business. 
 
 Q. Do other companies get licenses ? — A. Port gets ten and Lord gets two but we 
 get none, we applied for them and engaged boats and nets and went to great expei^se 
 last year in telegraphing to Ottawa for licenses, but could not get them. 
 
 Q. Do Lord and Vienna — do they fish practically themselves '! — A. Well, they do 
 fish some of their own boats — we depend principally on the spring run of fish — the 
 others are not so good for export — we depend principally upon these, though not 
 wholly. 
 
 Q. What other fish do you get? -A. Sockeyes, but they dtjn't do so well. 
 
 Q. Sockeyes are used wholly in the canneries ?- A. It is used also in the home 
 markets. 
 
 Q. Dou you catch spring salmon when sockeyes are running?- A. No; we get them 
 later in the season, l)ut not so good then. 
 
 Q. W^hy are they not so good ? — A. Because there are more spent fish among 
 them. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by '• spent '' fish ? -A. Oh, fish that have spawned. 
 
 Q. What season of the year does this take place when they are spent? A. Well, 
 just after the cohoe run about the 1st of September. 
 
 Q. When these are brought to you to purchase do you Hnd others that are not 
 spawned and eggs still in their bodies ? — A. Oh, yes ; a great many have been in brackish 
 water so long they get soft and flabby. 
 
 Q. Well, now, in regard to the.se licenses that other persons engaged in the same 
 trade as you— one has ten and the other two - you think tliey have a superiority over 
 you ? — A. Why certainly, when fish begin to run we jaiuiot get any and they had a 
 monopoly for outside boats. 
 
 Q. And you were handicapped in this way ? — A. Yes ; we should have the same 
 licenses, as we are in the same business. 
 
 Q. How many licenses would satisfy your trade ? A. Five ; we only applied for 
 two, but I think five would be about right. 
 
 Q. If you had five licen.ses would you practically use the boats yourself ? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. But you could not use them all unless yon hired them out I A. Oh, we have 
 unlimited market and capital and would use them by our own men. 
 
 Q. On shares ? -A. No ; not for spring salmon — perhaps f(»r sockeyes. 
 
 Q. Would you withdraw boats in the sockeye run? — ^A. Well, it might pay better 
 it" other parties were doing the same. 
 
 Q. Do you salt fish at all?— A. No ; we deal in salt fish, but we never put any up 
 as yet. 
 
 Q. Have you made any observation in cor.nection with offal thrown in the river — 
 whether it is in'urious in one sense or another? — A. Well, I don't think it does a great 
 deal of harm, yc t it cannot do any good. 
 
 
VM 
 
 MAKINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Wliiit is your view in n'{j;ar(l to the limitation of nets to cannei's and ordinary 
 Hshennen do you think all api>lifant.s who are British suhjeels should get licenses / — A. 
 I think eveiy man who has a boat and net of his own should get a license, hut he should 
 be a IJiitish subject and a resident. 
 
 C^. And that they should be unlimited ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In regaid to canning or other industry, sh<tuld any be injured or their licenses 
 fixed, what do you think ?- A. I think twenty boats ijuite sulticient foi" canneis. 
 
 C^. What is your view regarding the close season, namely that Sunday should not 
 be used for fishing ? A. I think the present close time very good. 
 
 Q. You are awaie six hours of Sunday is at the pre.sent time utilized for work — 
 what do ycm think of that .'-A. Well, the sockeye run (mly such a short time, they 
 would have no work on Monday if they did not start till six o'clock Monday. 
 
 Q. Have you had anything to do with the coast fishei-ies or sea fisheiies inde})en- 
 dent of the Fraser River? — A. Yes ; I have, when I was in Vancouver J dealt in salt- 
 water fish — in the drying and exporting of cod-fish and other salt-water fish. 
 
 Q. What was the result ? A. Halibut })ays well but nt>t cod-fish. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion with regard to benefits accruing from artificial breeding 
 here?- A. Ye.s, T think the present hatchery is a decided succe.ss — ^I think there .should 
 be a hatchery also to breed the first run of spring salmon. This export ))usiness is just in 
 its infancy now it is only, you may say, two yearold - the largest expoit last year was 
 ninety cases, that is "20 salu'on, and we pay one dollar a piece for them on the river — 
 that is $720 a day to the white fishermen. 
 
 i-i. The value of the sockeye is what 1 — A. Tt avei-ages from 10 to 20 cents. 
 
 Q. What is the usual weight of the dollar salmon ? — A. It averages from fourteen 
 to sixteen pounds. 
 
 Q. And the average sockeye 1 — A. Seven to eight pounds. 
 
 Q. You ship the whole of the spring salmon away? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you clean it at all ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Everything is shipped? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You sell them at so much each? — A. No, we sell by the pound. 
 
 Q. What might spring salmon l)ring you per pound in the New York or Uoston 
 markets? — A. The first run brings 25 to 30 cents. 
 
 Q. Have you ever shipped any sockeye to these markets ? A. Yes ; but they 
 come late in the seasim, and the first run strikes the markets when there are no other 
 fish there. When you send sockeye the lake fish are in the markets and you get very 
 little for them. 
 
 <.,). What would sockeye fetch ?— A From eight to fifteen cents [)er pound. 
 
 Q. Then is it a much more profitable business to fishermen on the river at such 
 piices to catch and dispose of spring salmon than sockeye— the ordinary fisherman, I 
 inean ? A, Well, I don't really know ; it depends a gi-eat deal on the run ; some- 
 times they run forty spring sahnon to the day, and 400 or iiOO sockeye a day, so it 
 would l)e about the same thing; the average spring salmon caught wcadd be six to 
 twelve a day. 
 
 Q. What colour is the spring salmon ?- A. Red. 
 
 Q. All red? A. There are some white ones, but very few on the first run : they 
 come in after the sockeye. 
 
 Q. How about the (juality ?- -A. The white are not marketable fish. 
 
 Q. Are they marketable later on in the se.ison ?- A. They sell here at the first run. 
 
 Q. Your object then is all the way through, that you who are engaged in the 
 V>usiness of fishing here, should be placed fairly on the same basis as others engagetl in 
 the same work ?--A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestion you would like to make? — A. Yes: I would like to 
 make a suggestion as regards trout. There are two different kinds ; one follows the 
 salmon and destroys spawn, and the only time they are valuable is during the close 
 season. They are most valuable in the maiket from Septembei* to March, and I would 
 like to have the .season open from the 1st Sei)tendjer to 1st March. 
 
 Q. Would that not l)e the veiy time when spaw dng ? — A. No ; they dont sjiawn 
 until after that : I think they spawn in April. 
 
 in th 
 I doi 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 135 
 
 Q. How do yiiii know that ? — A. Because I liave examined them ami found ejfgs 
 in them then. Tliey are caufflit extensively then, but they f,'et discoloured and slimy. 
 I don't think there is anything,' else about which I wished to speak. 
 
 Mr, AuMSTUoN'fi : — ^We are much oblij^ed to you, sir, if tliat is all. 
 
 JOHN B. MAHC^IJETTE, a native of Ontario, six years in JJritish Columbia, and 
 a lesident of Mission City, B. C. — a tradei- and expoi-ter of tish, was duly swoi-n. 
 
 Hy Mr. Wi/inot .■ 
 
 Q. Do you follow the operations of a trader and exporter? — A. Yes : I am both a 
 trader, salter, and exporter. 
 
 i}. Where is your place of business? — A. .Vt Wells Landing,' about two miles 
 above Mission Station. I have not been able to obtain a license. 
 
 Q. Have you fished on a licen.se lately ? -A. I have fished on other men's license. 
 
 ii. You have applied for licenses ? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. ^^'as any cause given why you should not get one ? — A. One titne I was informed 
 my application was in tt)o late, although put in in the month of January. 
 
 Q. What number of licenses did you apply for ? A. For one. 
 
 Q. And in your business as a salter, would one be sutBcient? — A. I ought to have 
 from two to five. 
 
 Q. Then any work you have carried on, it has been depending upon getting your 
 fish from other parties ? — A. Yes ; T got the use of other parties' licenses and furnished 
 boats and men. 
 
 Q. Did you have to pay anything in excess of the licenses fee ? — A. C)ne I had to 
 pay twenty dollars fee and another I had to pay more for — the one I gfit for twenty 
 dollars was for only part of the season. 
 
 Q. What was the amount you paid for the other? — ^A. Thii-ty ilollars. 
 
 Q. What was the man doing from whom you bought the license ? — A. He has been 
 carrying on business for some years and sold out to me his warehouse aiul outfits, &c. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Where do you fish ? A. Right at Well's Landing, at a place called Nicomen 
 Slough. 
 
 % Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. The fish that you catch in this lake what are they like?- A. T never fish in a 
 lake — it is in the main Fraser. 
 
 Q. Do you find the <juality of the fish there as good as at the mouth of the river? 
 — A. T don't see any difference. 
 
 (}. What (piantity would a boat get there fishing in a day? — A. Oh, last year's 
 run was not very good. We would get from five and six to eighteen and twenty -some- 
 times more and sometimes less- that was spring salmon —I have caught over eleven 
 hundred sockeye in eight hours. Some sockeye I shipped and others T salted. 
 
 Q. Where did you ship the sockeyes ? — A. To Monti'eal. 
 
 Q. Difl you find a ready sale? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did they sell compared with spring salmon ? — A. Not as good — they don't 
 take as well. 
 
 Q. You don't freeze them ? - A. No ; we pack them in ice. 
 
 (i. Ts the demand large for these fish, below there?- -A. Yes, sir ; T had no troul)le 
 in Hnding plenty of markets for mine. 
 
 0- Have you tried the American market? — A. I have shippetl to New York — that 
 is the only place in the States I have shipped to. 
 
 (,>. Hive you anything to say about this ofFal question?- A. That isa thinglknow 
 n< 'tiling about. 
 
 Q. You shipped your fish whole? — A. Yes ; except those we salted. 
 
 Q. With them did you do like the rest ? A. Yes, we threw it in the river. 
 
 
136 
 
 MARINE ANO FISHERIES. 
 
 
 y. Ts iiiufh fishing' (lone then? ? A. Not ii ^'reiit dt'iil. 
 
 Q. How is it done up tluMf -l)y wlioin/ A. Oh, liuliiiiis, liiilt'-l)ri'(>(l.s, uiul wliite 
 people. 
 
 Q. Hut the caleli is roinp(irativ«'ly smihU.' A. Yt's, tlieit- fire lutt many ciiiployed 
 ill the ti.shery. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. AniiMroiKj : 
 
 Q. Do you think ytiu couM mtt-h as iniiiiy tiierc us taitht-r down .'A. No, I don't 
 think so- not us many as at the mouth of the rivei'. 
 
 Q. Tt has Ihh'ii sti.^.ed, though, tliat tisii when they get in tiie mouth of the river, 
 leave the same day .'- A. Tliat is not my opinion. 
 
 //y J/v. Wi/inot : 
 
 Q. Have you any theory as to how rapidly they mi^'iate up i-ivei- ? A. Well, I 
 think sprinji,' salmon takes longer to get up than the others—! don't think they go over 
 twentv miles in a day. 
 
 Q. Have you ever observed that they travel more at night than day time ? A. 
 Yes, T have, and I think they travel more at the turn of the tide than at any other 
 time. 
 
 (j. Are there any saw-mills neai' you ? — A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Do they thi'ow their sawdust and rubhish in the river? — A. No. 
 
 ii. What do they do with it?- -A. Well, there is no sawmill near my |)lace. There 
 is one at Laiigley and one on Silver Creek -but then this is not on the ereek^ — it is near 
 it, but on dry land. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the eff'eots of .sawdust if thrown in the water ? — A. 1 
 think it is very injurious to fish. 
 
 Q. Have ycui anything to say as regards the lindtation of the number of nets ?- - 
 A. I think that fxtmi Jide dealers and Hshermen ought to get licenses. 
 
 Q. Tn what proportion all alike one license?- A. Well, no sir ; I think a man 
 who is .shipping is entitled to more licenses than an ordinary tishei-man. I think a man 
 who has nothing more than boat and net he should not have as many licenses as a man 
 carrying on a large business — still, T don't think it a good plan ts, grant licenses to 
 everybody, unless a homi Jide tisheinian and owner of his own boat and net. 
 
 Q. Would you allow foieigneis and others? A. Well, T think that ail should be 
 British subjects and residents foi- some time before they apply for licenses. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. What do you think of allowing farmers licenses at a clieap rate for their own 
 consumption ? — A. Well, there is an obstacle to that — the farmer cannot go and buy a 
 boat and net as cheap as he can buy the Hsh, however, T think the most of the farmers' 
 licenses are proper. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. But, if he wants to get a stock of tish for his own use ? — A. Oh, well, I think he 
 should be able to get that without a license, but if there was a licen.sed man there he 
 should buy fish from him, but if he gets a boat and net of his own, he should be allowed 
 to catch fish for his family by all means. 
 
 Q. What numbei' of licenses would you say for Canneries?-- A. Well, that is 
 .something on wliich T am not posted. They should, T think, get licen.ses according to 
 their size and capacity. 
 
 Q. But if all of the same capacity, what would be a fair average ? A. Well, if 
 every British .subject and fisherman g()t license.s, I think the cannerymen would not 
 fret whether they had one or three dozen. 
 
 think 
 reason 
 
 <. 
 shouh 
 
 I'ne 
 
 (. 
 
 —A. 
 ( 
 
 and 1 
 seen a 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. On the same ground the exporter would not either ?- 
 ground he would not. 
 
 A. No : on the .same 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISUERT rOMMISSION. 
 
 137 
 
 A. 
 
 Not <'xiictly ; I tliiiik we 
 I lircctliiii; ut' tisli uii tliis 
 
 % Mr. Wihnnt : 
 
 <i. On the principle i>t' t\V(t or tive lii'ciises In-iii;,' siitlicicnt toi' your (UmiiiukI. yini 
 think in wimt projMii tiuii slinuld lic«'iis«'s he ^'runted to runners/ -A. I tliiiik 4\M'nty a 
 n'HS(inal)le limit. 
 
 <J. Do you think the pi'esent close season rij,''it .' A. 
 siiould lisli week days and keep tlie whoU' of Siin(hiy. 
 
 <,^. Have yt»u taken any notiee of the etleet of artiticia 
 liver '. A. 1 have, some. 
 
 Q. What do you think of tiie system of hateliin;; ))y artititial means on tlie ri\ei'? 
 - A. A ^'ood thing and a success, to a certain extent. 
 
 <,^. Would it he much more successful if lai'j,'ely increased.' .\. I thinl< it would, 
 and he l)eneticial to-the province. 
 
 (.^. Have you taken notice ■ '" lead fish in the river to any extent .' A. Yes, 1 have 
 seen a great many. 
 
 (J. In wliat season? A, 8epteml>er and C)ctol)er. 
 
 (^. What is your tlieoiy as to tht; cause of death .' A. Well, they get Up in small 
 lakes and shallow waters and they tight and kill one another I have .seen the greatest 
 iiuantity in Harri.sctn Lake. 
 
 Q. Do you think all tish that go up river die ? A. No; 
 of the spring salmon die, you will .see very few of them dead 
 liumphaeks. 
 
 Q. They are very numerous hoth in going uji and dyin 
 think white .salmon is made .so hy l)eing longer in the river, 
 the hack and the tirst half inch would he perfectly white and farther in and around the 
 i)ack-hone wttuld he perfectly led. 
 
 Q. Ami white salmon of the spring species, would you call those tish in good conditii>n 
 or othei'wise .' A. Harly in the season spi'ing salmon ai'e in good condition I think they 
 lemain in the river all winter, having gone up in the autumn of the previous yeai*. I have 
 seen them caught in nearly all th(; months of the year hy the Indians. 
 
 Q. Theii you think white salmon is really red salmon in the sea. and it changes its 
 colour in the river do you think it is the same as the sockeye .' -A. Yes ; hut sockeyes 
 stay in a shortei' time the colioe tur. white, too, and the humphack is alw ays of a 
 lightei' colour, and the dog fish are red when they tirst come in. 
 
 Q. What ahout the steel-head '? — A. Well, I never saw one white-tieshed.and I have 
 seen them caught in every month of the year. The principal time for them to spawn is, T 
 think, in March and April, aftei- which they are spent tish and very poor. 
 
 Q. Are you of the oi)inion that these tish, too, have gone up the year ))revious and 
 would l)e in hest condition just previous to the commencement of this spawning time you 
 speak of I — A. Yes, and they must have come in in January and Feljruary. 
 
 Q. You have seen them, too, opened? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And as many egg.s as the spring salmon ?- A. No: U think not. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. AVhat is youi' opinion as regards the limit for tis!;ii:g It is now tidal water • 
 shmdd it he reduced any? — A. Well, there is notishing that I know of done as far up as 
 tidal water 
 
 don't I think vtM'v few 
 more of the sockeye and 
 
 .' - .\. Yes ; T may say I 
 I have cut them open on 
 
 "tidal water goes to Harrison River. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong . 
 
 A. Well, 1 
 
 Q. Oh, no, the tide never goes al)ove the rai)ids at ]\[iller's Landing? 
 have heen told it does. Sumas Lake is tidal water is it not. 
 
 (}. Ye.s, hut that comes in helovv ? — A. Well, T have been told that they have 
 three inches of tide at the mouth of the Harri.son Kivei'. 
 
 i 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How far does the ordinary tishernian tish up river to supply tish to the canneries 
 w ? — A. None ahove Wells Landing. 
 
138 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Then are boats eng.ijied in fishing all the way up from New Westminster to take 
 Hsh down to th(! canneries ! - A. Well, at certain places — many places are not good fish- 
 ing grounds. 
 
 Q. And where it is good fishing grounds?- A. Well, there is fishing there. 
 
 Q. Ts there anything further you would wish to state? — A. No, T think not. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to ask Mr. Armstrong ? — A. Mr. Armstrong, no, 
 nothing more. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Very well, that will do. 
 
 The Commission adjourned at o.yS p.m., to meet again at the same place at 10 a.m., 
 the following day. 
 
 Nkw Westmixstki!, B.C., iUth February, 1892. 
 Fiff/i day's Si'usion. 
 
 The Commission assend)leil in the Court-house and was called to order by the chair 
 at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present : 
 Ml'. Wilmot (presiding), Mr. Sheriti" Armstrong, Mr. C. F. Winter (Secretary.) 
 
 MARSHALL M. ENGLISH, of New Westminster, a native of the United States, 
 though residing in New Westminster foi- the last 1.") years, engaged in the salmon can- 
 ning busiiiess, indirectly representing the local board of management of the Anglo- 
 British Columbia Canning Co., representing eleven canneries in British Columbia, was 
 duly sworn. 
 
 Mr. AVii,.MOT. — Have you any statement to make? 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. You represent eleven canneries, Mr. English ? — A. Yes, sir ; twf) up north and 
 nine on this rivei*. 
 
 % Mr. WUniot : 
 
 Q. Do you wish to submit anything ? A. Not at present. The canning industry on 
 this i-iver is a big one and no two years ai'e alike — there is a rotation of four years, and 
 the nund)er of boats that will answer for one season will be very much out of proportion 
 in another. I think the cannerymen should have at least 'Jo boats and have it made a 
 fi.xture, and not changed from one year to another. 
 
 Q. Not less than 2'), and it should be a fi.xed nund)ei?- A. Yes, liot less than 2") 
 and a fixed number we are handleel difFeieutly by the department from year to year. 
 
 Q. Would you advocate all and ex cry cannery to get twenty-five ? — A. Well, I 
 don't know as you could do anything else. 
 
 Q. No restrictions ? — A. Well, it would re-st with the department. I would not 
 recommend one way or the other — I dont think that those who have been in business 
 for a number of years shouhl sutler for the building up of otners. 
 
 Q. Then that would be, no new canneries would be allowed? — A. Well, that would 
 be at the disposition of the department — it would make no difference if we were not 
 cut down for building up others if a limitation on the liver, then those who established 
 the industry should be protected first. 
 
 Q. Would twenty-five licenses do that? A. \'es ; with outside licenses, they 
 should, I think. 
 
 Q. But, would twenty-five licenses, i'.' permanent, sufKciently protect you ? — A. 
 Well, while it would that far, I don't think twenty-five licenses enough for any 
 canneiy. 
 
RRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 13!) 
 
 Q. But a siifKcient protection? — A. Well, it would be a protection, of course. 
 
 Q. Are the companies that you liave acted as aj^ent or niananer for wholly on the 
 leaser River 1 — A. No, sir ; two on the Hkeeiiii and nine heie. 
 
 Q. What is the capacity of these canneries generally — in ordinary average seasons ? 
 — A. Well, I think that all of them are capable of 25,000 cases and upwards. 
 
 Q. And would twenty-tive licenses give to these canneries sutHcient tish for 20,000 
 cases? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it give them 15,000 cases? -A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it give them 10,000? — ^A. On an average 1 don't know that it would — 
 it might. Now, as an illustiation, T packed in two canneries this year, the Phoenix and 
 iu.'tther and with twenty lioats packed about 7,000 cases. I don't think twenty-five 
 boats would average over 10,000 cases. Take four years ago, I packed, with twenty- 
 seven boats, 4,000 ca.ses — that was in 188S ; in 18K9 1 had about thii'ty-tive boats and 
 [lacked something over 20,000 cases, in 1890 I had thirty-two boats and packed between 
 14,000 and 15,000 cases, I am speaking of my own property all that time, in 1891 T 
 packed about six or .seven thousand. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect how many licenses you had in 1890? — A. In 1890 T think I 
 had twenty licenses, and twenty-four in 188i) — the additional boats were got from out- 
 side. We always used outside boats, even when the river was open — the average 
 number of boats fished by the canneries was about forty. 
 
 Q. How many in 1889? — A. Twenty-four wert' allotted me in 1889. 
 
 Q. Twenty the standard, and four allotted to you ?- A. No ; the balance, was pro- 
 j)ortioned /iro nitu to capacity. 
 
 Q. Then you got four pro rata ? — A. It was only the one year. The Govtn-nment 
 increased the number in 1889. They tried to ntake tlie limitation on the basis of 
 capacity and gave Mr. Ewen thirty-nine boats and the l>ritish Columbia cannery were 
 allotted twenty-four. 
 
 Q. That was nineteen over the twenty, and you got foui' over the twenty ? — A. 
 Yes ; some got eighteen, some got twenty, it was worked up on the basis of what each 
 cannery had packed for so many years. 
 
 Q. In 1889 then you had twenty-four licenses? — A. Yes; twenty-four — 1 think f 
 used thirty-two oi' thirty-three boats. 
 
 A. And your pack was 20,000 cases? — A. Something over 20,000. 
 
 Q. Who is "English & Company ? " — A. That is my cannery. 
 
 Q. I see two names here (15. C."^ Board of Trade Hieport, lts"90,) " English iV Co.,"' 
 and "The Phoenix I'acking Co. ? '" — A. I am connected with l)oth of them. 
 
 Q. Well, that is one and the same thing ? — A. Well, 1 never called it the 
 " Phoenix " Company-it was in the hands of W. D. Coleman for a year or two, and I 
 think they called it the " Phoenix '' Company — the brand was the " Phoenix " brand. 
 English it Co., worked fnmi 1877 to 1884, inclusive, then we came in again in 1S88, 
 1889 and 1890. In 1882 I operated over here, right opposite the city. 
 
 Q. In 1889 your pack was over 20,000 cases ? .\. Something over twenty thousand 
 in 1889 four licenses o\er the standard number. 
 
 Q. In 1890 you say you had twenty lieen.ses and how many outside boats did you 
 get? A. I think I had eleven or twelve. 
 
 Q. And your pack ? A. Something about 14,000 cases. 
 
 Q. Is that a fair average? A. You take the four seasims and I think it is a fair 
 average. 
 
 Q. For the eleven establishments you are now manager of? -A. I think so — I 
 think any one would pack over 20,000, if they had nnu'e stoi-age room they might pack 
 25,000. When the river was oi)en we fished forty boats, we always took outside boats 
 and employed outside tisheinien besides the forty of our own what was the {)osition ? 
 We in many cases furnished thiMii with gear, linats, kv., and took payment out in 
 tish. 
 
 Q. Were you fishing in 1877 ?— A. Yes ; I packed then about 25,000 cases there 
 was then only five canneries on the river. 
 
 i.^. What number of boats did you use then? A. Well, I dont say we had forty 
 l)oats and upwards and I could not say how many we had besides, we also had a trap in 
 
140 
 
 MARINE AND FISHKRIES. 
 
 
 ' ij.) 
 
 1 
 
 I §1 
 
 j; 
 
 :;(; 
 
 ii> 
 
 the river whioh tlie department made us take up. We also took fish from Harrison 
 River and at Yale. 
 
 Q. Hjw late did you fish in the Harrison Kiver? — A. Up to September, we 
 followed the fish up after they left hei-e. 
 
 Q. What condition were the fish in then? A. Harrison River fish were very good, 
 the Yale fish were not so good. 
 
 Q. Were the fish then in appearance very large as regards spawning? — A. No ; but 
 towards the last many would begin to get discoloured and then we moved down the 
 river. 
 
 Q. You fish as long as you could for the sockeye and then when you found you 
 were not catching them as numerous as you wanted you followed thein up the Harrison 
 and Y'^ale? — A. Y'^es : but we didn't catch veiy many, we could not get them down from 
 there. 
 
 Q. That is now pre\ented ?- - A. Y'^es ; T think it a good thing, too — there was no 
 profit in getting tliem up there. We bought fish from Indians at S4 a hundred or what 
 ever we could get them for, once a steamer brought down thirty thousand. 
 
 Q. All caught l)y Indians in dip-nets? — A. Yes ; in the eddies. 
 
 Q. And in 1877 yo.i had 25,000 cases, how many fish to the case then? — A. About 
 the same as now. 
 
 y. What do you crll a general average ? — A. Well, it is according to the .season, 
 the average one season with another would be ten or eleven fish to a case. I packed 
 one season — I tliink ii' 1S84 — the run was a light one and fish averaged ten or eleven 
 to the case. 
 
 Q. That is a case of forty-eight one pound tins ? Forty-eight pounds ? — ^A. Y'^es, 
 sir ; sometimes they run more and some less- last year they would take fourteen to the 
 case in the early part of the run. 
 
 Q. But the general average would be from ten to eleven to a case ? — A. T think so. 
 
 Q. The average weight of fish then would be between seven and eight pounds ?— 
 A. Well, I think about seven or under. 
 
 Q. Because most of your l)rother canners have stated they run from seven to eiglit 
 pounds ? 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstmny : 
 
 Q. Did you ever weigli the sockeye ? - A. No ; I do not think I ever did. I liav<' 
 weighed most of the other kinds, but we would not weigh a sockeye unless an extra 
 large one. 
 
 Q. But if a per.soi; stated they weighed about eight pounds would he not be about 
 correct ? — A. I should think the sockeye would average seven pounds or so. A man 
 could pick up ten fish that would weigh eight and a-half pounds, and then they might 
 not weigh only four. 
 
 Q. Were fish small in 1890 ? — A. Fish were small that year. 
 
 Q. In 1889 ? - A. Tliey were smaller — in 1888 they were larger — they are always 
 larger in an oflf veai-. 
 
 Q. What was the great year?— A. 1877, 1881, 1885 and 1889— 1882 and 1890 
 were e.xceedingly fine years also. 
 
 Q. Tliey don't give you credit for fish in 1885 ? — A. No ; we did not pack in 1885. 
 
 Q. Why ?--~A. Well, we could not get anything for them 
 
 Q. It was .,ot l)ecause the fish were not tliere ? A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. What about the Wellington Packing Company ?- A. Well, they are capable of 
 packing over 20,000 cases — they generally pack 25,000. 
 
 Q. Well, tliey never packed that many, except in that one year ? — A. What diil 
 they pack in 1889? 
 
 By Afr. Wilinol : 
 
 Q. Thev packed 20,000 then?— A. Y'es ; I thought so. 
 
 Q. But' in 1SS() 11,000: 1888, 7,000 ; and in 1889, 20,000. Do oflf years gem- 
 rally average about the same thing/ A. Yea ; as far as 1 know — 1889 and 1890 were 
 good, and 1881 and 1882 were fairly good. 
 
 about 
 l)efore 
 before 
 
 Skeena 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 141 
 
 Q. How do you account for "off" years ?— A. Well, 1 don't know ; I have thought 
 about it, but the more you think about it the less you know about it : it occurred 
 before I came to the country, and I have talked to Indians and they say it occurred 
 before they were boys. 
 
 Q. Does this apply to all the rivers of British Columi)ia ?— A. Well, I think the 
 Skeena is different. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do you think fish are not as eai'ly as before? — A. Well, I don't know ; there is 
 no change. In 1882 they came in on the 1st of July, and in 1877 on the 'iOth and 
 •_'2nd of July. 
 
 Q. What time last year ? — A. Near the end of July ; the last two or three years 
 they have been late, but whether it is the general rule or not I cannot tell. 
 
 Bjj Mr. WUinot : 
 
 Q. Then what years do you say were off years ? — A. 188.'^ and 1884 ; 1885 was a 
 good year ; J886 was a very light year for a second year, and 1887 and 1888 light 
 years. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect what 1882 was? — -A. 1882 was a very heavy year for a second 
 year, and 188.J should have been the next big year. 
 
 Q. The biggest year was 1882?- -A. No; but fish I'aii up longer. 1881 was a 
 good regular season. I ran two canneries in 1882 myself. 
 
 Q. Well, take 188C>, 1887 and 1889, alx)ut the same number of canneries 
 were running then? — A. No; I think there has been an increase ; T don't know that 
 there was an increase in 1887 and 1888. 188G, 1887 and 1888 were off years. 
 
 Q. 1885 was a good year then ? — A. 1885 was an excellent year, but the canneries 
 did not run. 
 
 Q. How did you know that it was a good year if you did not catch fish ? — A. Well, 
 there were several canneries running ; T think ]Mr. Ewen packed 20,000 cases. T have 
 110 theory for off anrl heavy years ; I don't think anybody can tell. We know fish come 
 in and spawn and then young fish go out, but that is about all we can tell. They are 
 never seen at sea. 
 
 Q. They are caught at sea, though ?- A. AVell, I have been told they are never 
 seen. 
 
 Q. You would not call the (reorgia Straits then a sea ? A. ( )li, no ; we know all 
 tish coming are seen as they enter the Straits of Fuca, but they are never seen outside, 
 nor ten miles outside there, but the moment they enter the Straits they are seen, and 
 the Indians begin to catch them then. 
 
 Q. But the three last years have been pretty good? — A. Yes ; a good average. 
 
 Q. Did you look forward to 1889 as being a good year ?- A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It was a late I'un, was it not ? -A. Yes ; they came in late and ran late ; they 
 were running after we closed down. 
 
 Q. And what do you think of the coming year ? — A. ( )h, an off year ; a very poor 
 year, but last year we got more fish than we exjiected. 
 
 Q. And you look forward to 189;$? -A. Asa heavy year ; but the last two poor 
 years have been exceedingly g(jod. 
 
 Q. In 1889, which you called a first-class year, the pack was 414,294 cases ; in 
 1890, 409,4()4 cases ; that was not much of a falling off from 1889 ? -A. I think it is, 
 however, about ;5;W,000 in 1890, about 90,000 cases less than the former year. 
 
 Q. And t)f the 409,4()4 cases, 241,889 of them were taken in tlie the Fraser River 
 in 1890 — more than half of the whole? -A. Yes; last year the Fraser Uiverpack was 
 about 105,000 cases ; your repoits are not just exactly correct. 
 
 Q. But we <;ot the information from the canners themselves? — A. ()h, well, a 
 variation of a few thousand cases would not make uuicli difl'erence ; a man may give in 
 a few more cases than he should. 
 
 Q. Oh, 1 always thought they were (lisj)osed to give rather less than more? — A. 
 Oh, Mr. Wihnot, the cainiers are not disposed to gi\e anything lower ; they are not 
 afraid of anything that way. 
 
142 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 It. 
 
 Q. What do you say of licensees being <,'ranterl to all IJritish subjects, i-esidont 
 fisliennou in the country ? — A. I would not object to any of them li^ettinj,' licenses ; but 
 1 don't know anything about it ; I have got nothing to do with it. I think it is for 
 this commission to tind out whether they should have any. I think I would give them 
 all a license. 
 
 Q. ]}ut I think you equally bound to answer ev('n if the (juestion regards the can 
 nerics or fisheimeii ? - A. Oh, well, I think each Hshtu'men should get a license. 
 
 Q. Should they be given to all applicants, or to llritish sul)jects, residents of the 
 country? — A. Oh, to IJritish subjects, residents of tht country ; T don't think everyone 
 should I'ome in here and get a license , T think in the United States they follow that 
 pUin. 
 
 Q. What is your view in regai'd to canneries being limited, instead of twenty-Hvc 
 licenses to twenty or fifteen? A. Well, 1 think it wimld ham])er their business. 
 
 Q. From being so exclusive as at present? If fifteen or twenty licenses is the 
 maximum would you not b(! able to get sutticient fish to supply the canneries froui the 
 outside Kshermen ? — A. I dont think so; I think a cannei-yman should havi^ a suf 
 ficieut nu.'ulxM' of boats to pnttect his industry. 
 
 Q. l>ut if you had no licenses you would get all the tish you want? — A. Well, 1 
 would iu>t like to be in the business ; if we have licenses we know what we can rely on. 
 
 Q. Tf any limit is mad", wliat linnt would you say to the number of boats 
 peimitted to fish on the Fra,ser River? — A. Oh, T don't know. 
 
 Q. But you stated you think we should give unlimited licenses? A. Well, I dfin't 
 think it would increase the nund)ei' of licenses very much ; everybody is not going up 
 to fipply fi)r license's ; I think there was UOO or over in 1SS"J. 
 
 Q. That was a good yeai' too? A. Yes ; it was a second year l)ut an extrattrdinary 
 good year; I think there was about DOG boats -.something like that I know there 
 was a very large numl)er. 
 
 Q. Hut then the limit of lat(>, the outside limit of all has been from live t(i six 
 hundi-ed? — A. T think so. 
 
 Q. x\n(l that oidy admif^ed of about sixty or so outside white tishermen to use 
 lioats? — A. ( )li, there was moi'e than that. 
 
 Mr. ]\i('NAit.- Not over that, for you see out of th<> hundicd 4)r rather hundred and 
 fifty, thi'et^ fi'eezers had thirty and then forty went to the Indians. 
 
 Mr. ]'^N<;i.lsii. — Well, there was al)out .seventy white men, do you draw the line at 
 colour ? 
 
 Bjf Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Well you do in fi.sh you put up nothing but red .salmon (laughter) however, do 
 vou tliink Indians entitled to fish and get licenses? — I do certaiidy — the same as other 
 men. 
 
 (y). Aie they not employed in the cantuM'ies do you not employ them ? - A. Yes ; 
 I have one Indian who has fished for me ever since [ had a license, but generally I do 
 not thiidc it does Indians any good if all get lieiMises -I dont think it good to give 
 fliem too much money. 
 
 (.^). 'i'hen, why (.lo you employ them :" \. because we have to we cannot impoit 
 labour fri>m tiie east and employ them foi- one oi' two months only. The.se ])eopl«' come 
 from all pai'ts of the country and britig all theii- l)elongings an<l fish for five or six 
 weeks and then go home again wliiti' pe<iple would not do this. 
 
 Q. Do you furnish Indians with gear and money to get licenses? \. < )li, yes ; we 
 furnish them in everything- grub, iu!ts and evei-y thing else. 
 
 <.^. Is it the habit of .sending liulians to the departmental otHce for licen.ses. and that 
 the liulians an- still under the control of th«^ canneries? —A. Well, 1 have heard it but 
 ilon't know of it. I have gone tiu-re myse.f and made application and paid money for 
 licenses for liulians, but oidy in one oi' two I'ases. 
 
 t^. I><i you employ Indians and whitemen outside of your own boats at day pay, or 
 on shares? -A. Whifeuu'ii have a " lay " or .share and Indians we pay by day wages. 
 
 Q. Do you give them the full market value of the li.sh ? A. I make a bargain with 
 them befoi'e we beitin. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA KI8HERY COMMISSION, 
 
 143 
 
 Q. What was the j)rice last year ? — A. I paid six and ahalf cents and reserved the 
 rest for ijcar Mr. Kwen was paying 20 cents. 
 
 Q. What did you pay outside licen.ses ? A. Sonic I paid twelve and ahalf cents, 
 some fifteen. 
 
 Q. Then the difference between these men with a " lay '" and outside men would he 
 :il)out one-half ! — A. About one-half. 
 
 Q. And if these people who had a " lay "' had licenses they would have got twelve 
 ,ind a half or fifteen cents? — A. Yes ; if I wanted the fish. 
 
 (.}. Then the difference between men who get licenses and those who do not is one- 
 half? — A. No; he has to get his gear. 
 
 Q. But as to the i)rice of fish I -A. Oh, yes ; but he may lose a net the first night, 
 if he has a " lay "' I have to give him another net. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. What is the price of a net and boat ? A. The boat and outfit about $^>0 or $00, 
 the net about $90. 
 
 % Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How long do nets last? — A. (Jenerally oidy during the sockeye run. 
 
 l}. And the outfit for a fisherman would be id)out !$1;>0 ? A. I would say from 
 
 >;ir)0 to i?l7-"). 
 
 Q. Have you taken any observations, or can you exjjrcss an opinion in regard to 
 ill!' operation of the hatchery and ai-tificial breeding of fish as a benefit to tlu' river? — 
 A. Well, I certainly think it a benefit ; I have an idea that the increase in the last 
 three oi' four years — that the hatchery has something to do with it — of course I don't 
 know, ijut T don't see, though, how anybody can help thinking it a benefit. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge if it is a benefit elsewhei-e on the coast? — A. I know 
 it has b(^en beneficial on the Sacramento River ; the fish(!ries there were totally 
 ruined by mountain deposits covering the spawn, and they were replenished by the 
 McKay Hatchery, and the catch of fresh fish there is now veiy great. 
 
 Q. Then you think artificial breeding of fish an advantage?— A. Why, I certaiidy 
 (in. When first 1 came to this coast there was no shad — now there is plenty of them 
 on the Pacific coast. 
 
 Q. Y.)u know, as a matter of fact, that shad are now disposed of in the markets 
 of San I'^-ancisco, and that they were not indigenous to the waters of the Pacific? -A. 
 Plenty of them, and there was not a shad here before ; I don't think there is any doubt 
 as to the success (»f the artificial fish culture. 
 
 Q. Do you think the system should be extended? — A. Yes : 
 lie hatcheries on the Thompson, Fraser and Harrison l{ivers. 
 
 Q. W(>!1, now, what do you think of offal ? — A. 1 think the 
 with offal for all concerned is to put it in the river. 
 
 Q. As you do at present? — A. Well, it might l)e improved upon by puttitig if in 
 ilccpcr water ; at present it is put on the bank in some places, but if put in deep water 
 it will be taken away. The caniH^ries are generally built near the water, or over it, so 
 as to accommodatt^ steam-boats coming up to the factory. At my place we have j)lenfy 
 of water ; we loaded two ships there this sunnncr. 
 
 ;.^ You are the last cannery down the river? — A. No; there are two below me. 
 I don't think offal can be handled diflerently ; if it can b(> prolitably, cannerymen 
 would be only too glad to handle it, and you cannot do anything by putting it on 
 land ; it would drive people out. 
 
 Q. Is it not used now in an oil factory? A. Yes; but I don't think they are 
 doing much with it ; the cannerymen wouUl gladly transport it if any oiu! would take it. 
 
 y. Do you think it wise of the (iiovernment to encourage capital to come here to 
 dispose of of!'al ? — A. Well, if on the east coast it might b" profitable, but T don't 
 think it would b(^ here. 
 
 Q. Do you always find packing fish profitable ? — A. Well, one year 1 lost f 17,000. 
 
 I think there should 
 best thing you can do 
 

 144 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Other years you have made profits? — A. "Well, we could not lose all the time ; 
 I think I have al)out as much as T started with, and have got a living all the while. 
 
 Q. When you tii-st commenced salmon canning here was it profitable ? — A. It was 
 very profitable the first year : the second year it was unprofitable, but we did not 
 understand it. 
 
 Q. Well, but don't you think this oil factory would be pi-ofitable when they learn 
 how to work it? — A. Well, I don't think there is enough oil in it (i. <>. the offal) to 
 ,make it ])rt>fitable. 
 
 Q. Well, but your local (government here is trying to encourage Croftei- immigra- 
 tion, and one of the features is this industry of converting the ofi'al into oil, At., now, 
 would there not be a l)ig field for their operations? — A. Well, there would l)e lots of 
 offal anyway, but there is not enough oil in offal to work profitably — the oil is in the fish, 
 not in the offal. 
 
 Q. Do you know the menhaden or herring of the Atlantic Coast? — A. 1 know the 
 heiring here — I don't know the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Well, all .along the coast of the United States on the Atlantic seaboartl they 
 have sixty or seventy large canning establishments to catch herring for turning them 
 into oil and making fertilizers ? A. AVell, they would have markets for it there, but I 
 don't think it could be profitably employed here. 
 
 Q. What do you think of it (i. i\, offal) as regards health ? — A. I think for a 
 sanitary purposes it should b;' put in the river— all light stuff would be eaten by fish. 
 The heads and tails would never rise to the surface -the curi'ent is so strong it takes 
 them all out. 
 
 Q. If it lodges aloi g the Vjays and sloughs is it not offensive ? — A. Well,sonjetimes, 
 if decayed — all animal matter is when in that state. 
 
 Q. Have you heard of diseases i)eing encouraged by thesedeposits ?— A. I have nut 
 heard of it in 18S'2 I had camps with four or five bundled persons in it, and Indians, you 
 know, are not generally very clean whitemen were there too, but I didn't see any 
 sickness resulting f -om it. 
 
 Q. Do you tlii ik the white i)opulation would be more sensitive to it ? A. Well, 
 thev fire more sensitive to anything oi that kind. 
 
 Q. Can you suggest anything to do with this offal? — A. Put it in deep water. 
 
 Q. This is not geneially done now ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Are canners desirous of j)utting it in deep water? — A. Oh, I think so- it would 
 l)e a tax upon them but they would have to stand that they have generally to stand 
 everything that comes along, e\en the (iovei-nment. 
 
 Q. Is this offal freciuently taken in nets at che mouth of the river? — A. AVell, I 
 ha\ e so heard it stated here, but I never heard it conniplained of — I suppose sometimes 
 they catch a little in their nets. 
 
 ii. What makes nets get useless after one season? -A. Slime off' fish and the hot 
 weather. 
 
 Q. Then if slime off fish and heat of the weather injures nets, would not an fuldi- 
 tional amount of it injui-e them more? A. Well, you don't get much slime from the 
 oti'al — T nevei' heai-d any of my men complain — I have had men fishing in the river for 
 the last fifteen years ami nevei' heai'd it. 
 
 Q. And then nothing but the heads and tails and bony })arts would get in tiie 
 nets ? A. Yes ; nothing else. 1 have seen Chinamen go witl; a bucket where the otlal 
 was aroini' in and jjet a l)ushel and a half of suckers and small fish that were feediiii; on 
 the ort'al, in a very short time. 
 
 Q. So you think then that offal is not injui-ious to man, or the fish in the river?— 
 A. No; not if put in the deep river — we had a camp on one side of us and an Indian 
 camp on the othei' — we drink Fraser Kiver water and my family never had any sick- 
 ness — but the only way is to put it in the chaniu>l of the river. 
 
 Q. And you think cannerymen are prepared to do that ? — A. I think they are 
 quite willing to do anything that is right. 
 
 Q. You know then that it lias been contrary to law? — A. Yes ; but by permission 
 of the department it has not been contrary to law 
 
 Q. AVas the refuse thrown in last year? — A. "^'^s, sir. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 145 
 
 Q. And no permission to do so t — A. Yes ; I think so — I think the Minister gave 
 permission to suspend the regulation. 
 
 Q. No ; not so 1 — A. Well, I think, if T am not mistaken, the department wrote 
 the Inspector that the throwing in of ofFal last year would be allowed, like in 1890. 
 
 Q. I may say that you are in error in that respect, because I know that it was not 
 granted. You think the only way then is to put it in the deep channel of the river ? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And that there it would be harmless ? — ^A. Well, I don't say it is harmless — it 
 might do good. The Chinamen in the factory are all fat fellows and I think the sweet 
 smell in the cannery makes the cannerymen fat, (laughter.) 
 
 Q. Well, you are certainly a good specimen, (laughter) Well, what do you think of 
 the eft'ects of saw -dust in the streams? — A. Well, I think it is injurious — they have 
 laws in the United States to prevent saw-dust going in — I always understood it hurts 
 tish by getting in their gills. 
 
 Q. Well, but they also have laws in the United States that offal shall not go into 
 the rivers either 1 — A. Well, but where do they can anything but oysters. 
 
 Q. Washington, Oregon, ifec. ? — A. Well, but they don't enforce it — I know they 
 throw offal in and I have heard that young salmon hatch from where the offal is thrown 
 in. 
 
 Q. Oh, well, that is so far beyond a possibility and next to an absurdity that we will 
 not discuss it — eggs could not be hatched unless ripe? — A. AVell, it might have been 
 ripe — I liave been told by parties who have seerf it that young tish come from where 
 offal Wtas thrown in. 
 
 Q. Do you think it a proper principle, that of transferring licenses? — A. Oh well, 
 1 don't think it makes any difference to the department whether a man sells his license 
 or not. 
 
 Q. The department makes nothing out of it — it is the public ? — A. Well, nor to the 
 juil)lic — I think perhaps after all it might be better to have licenses not transferable. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the ecjuality of fees — should they be alike everywhere? — 
 A. I think they should all be uniform — all the fishermen uniform with canners, and 
 each should be uniform among themselves. 
 
 Q. What are your views as to fishing limits on the Fraser River? — A. Well, I 
 don't think that makes any difference to the department — I think things in that line 
 should remain as at pre.sent — T dontthink there would beany fishing above Stave River. 
 
 Q. But you must not say " any diffei'ence to the department ;"' the department is 
 simply the mouth-piece of the public ? — A. But the department is holding this coni- 
 inission for the public. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close season?— A. i think the close season correct, 
 and ample for the protection of the salmon. 
 
 Q. What do you think of it from the stand-point of morality ? — A. Well, T don"t 
 think you should change it; the present Sunday close season is (juite right, and a man 
 can be quite good enough from Saturday night until G o'clock Sunday night. I have 
 seen men come out of church and pile up iiay ; I don't think these fellows that are 
 always too good ai'e always the best ; theiT are half a dozen ways of being good : you 
 can be too good, you know. 
 
 Q. And you can be too bad? — A. .Vnd you can l)e too bad. (Continuing). T 
 think all these fish, you know, return in the shape of offal, whether they are killed or 
 not (referring to the numbers that die up river.) 
 
 C^. You are a member of the JJoard of Trade ? — A. The Boaid of Trade of West- 
 minster? Yes. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of v/hat generally ti'ansjjires there 1 — A. No ; I am not a good 
 attendant. 
 
 Q. It is a public body ? — A. It is ct)nvposed of merchants here. 
 
 Q. No; fishermen ?-— A. Well, not uidess you call us fish traders. 
 
 Q. Have you rcatl a document from a public officer I'egarding matters on the 
 I'^iaser Biver? — A. Yes ; I have read the document. 
 
 Q. Are you aware in what it says that exaggei'ations and misstatements were made ? 
 A. Yes : I think it is very much exatrgerated, especially the cut you made. 
 10<— 10 
 
146 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Well, that oflicer made the statement that five cans were made out of an eight 
 pound salmon / — A. Well, I don't say tish are all eight pounds ; some are, hut many 
 are less, and then you umst remember all the salmon we catch don't go into cans, and 
 the waste as given is too much. 
 
 Q. Thi-ee pounds out of eight 1 — A. Well, I don't know that it is ; your cut was 
 misleading. 
 
 Q. oil, but I see (lo«)king over report British Columbia Boaid of Trade), this is 
 from the Board of Trade of Victoria ; do you belong to that? — A. No ; it is the Board 
 of Westminster I belong to. 
 
 Q. Well, here is this statement that that report was exaggeiated, and yet e\ery 
 member who has come before us and sworn has borne out those statements. Have you 
 anything else, sir, to say ? — A. No ; I don't think so at present ; if I think of any- 
 thing again, T will come before you. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstuong. — Yes ; if any new matter that is important, it would be a good 
 thing to get one man to represent you in any new matter and let him come before us. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, that will do, Mr. English. 
 
 Mr. DAVID MELVTLLE addressed the Commission, and recjue-sted permission 
 to make a statement, which was allowed. 
 
 .Mr. Melville. ^ — I wished to say that there are eight pei-sons who came to the 
 country — some before me, and some .ifter, from Scotland, who have gone back because 
 they could not get a license. 
 
 % Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Are you aware i>f your own knowledge that they came here to become residents 
 and tish ? — A. Yes ; two came with me — some applied twice, some three times, and 
 some that wei-e fishermen in Scotland went back to fish there. 
 
 Q. You have stuck to it hei-e ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you attribute that to the improper way the licenses aie distributed at 
 present ? -A. Yes : bc^cause we cannot get them. 
 
 Q. You have nothing further to say ?- .\. No ; nothing else. 
 
 Q. Vei'y well, sii", that will do, your statement is duly recorded. 
 
 The Commission was thereupon declared adjourned by the Chairman at 12.1") p.m., 
 to meet again at the same place at 10 a.m., on 'J^th February. 
 
 Mr. Connnissioner Wilmot and Mr. Winter, .secretary, spent the afternoon in 
 visitino" the tish hatchery at Bon Accoi'd, retui'ning to AVestminster about ()..'50 p.m. 
 
 67// Diii/s Siissio)!,. 
 
 New Westmixsteh, P..C., :25th February, 1892. 
 
 The Commission assembled in tlu; Court liouse and was called to order by the 
 Chair at lO.lo a.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. Wilmot, presiding: .^[r. Sheriff Armstrong, Mr. C. F. Wintei', 
 secretary. 
 
 JOHN WACNER, of New Westminster, a native of Canada, four years resident 
 in British Columljia, and a fisherman, was duly sworn. 
 
 Ji>/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Now, Sir, have you anything special to relate? — A. Well, only as regards 
 Captain (ji rant's license. I undeistand that it has been stated here that I bought a 
 license from Captain Grant and paid 850 for it. 
 
BpmSH COLnMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 147 
 
 Bjf Mr. Aniiatrony : 
 
 Q. No ; What lias heen said is that a man bought a license from Captain Grant 
 .111(1 paid him $50 foi- it? — A. Well, when I was going down the rivei- fishing Captain 
 (iiant and I I'.ive been good friends ever since I have been in the country, and he was 
 ^foingaway to A'^ancouNer, and would not be able to use his license, and he asked me if I 
 <()uld not arrange with some fisherman to take it on shares, and he told me he would 
 want about the seventh fish for the use of the license, and after I went down I found it 
 very difficult to get any fishermen to give them- they said it was too nmch -and I 
 looked around for (jver a week and could not get any one to take it, and in the mean- 
 while the man who stated it here was a paitner of mine, and I reasoned the thing 
 that unless my partner and I took up the license and worked 
 it no one would do so, and we thought it the best thing to go and get a net and 
 rig it up the same as the canneries ami take one-tliird foi- our share and give two-thirds 
 f(»r I'unning it. I went to JNIr. Ladner and got a boat and we gave it to a man to work, 
 hut he only caught one humpback or so and I took it away from him, but the other 
 man did better, and when we wound up there was about §90 over, aftei- paying for the 
 net and all. Then when we came up I reasoned with Nellis (?) and thought the least 
 he could give Captain (irant for the use of his license was !?oO, and thought that he 
 sliould give §50. Well, he thought it too murh, but 1 thought Captain Grant should 
 net this much, so we took §20, apiece and gave Ci >tain (Jrant §50. 
 
 Q. It is true that he paid you §25 for h df " Grant's license ? — A. Oh yes ; out of 
 llie §90 the gear made — ^that is exactly the siiiteiueiit I have to give. 
 
 Mh. Grant, -(from the audience). Oh n. >-u lie paid me. 
 
 AIu. Ahmstron'(;.- -No ; he ditln't.« 
 
 Mu. (iHANT. — Well, I thought that was it. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Are you a practical fisherman ? — A. Well, I have been fishing for • 
 tliree years. 
 
 Q. With licenses of your own ? — A. Yes, for two yeais of my own. 
 
 Q. Where else have you been fishing .' — A. In the Island of Cape Breton. 
 
 Q. Can you give an idea of the quantity of fish taken during each year ? — A. Well, 
 tiie first year I fished for the Uritish Colund)ia cannery 1 think we put in eight thou- 
 sand fish. 
 
 (j. AN'hat year was that? — A. That was thiee yeai's ago, '(^9. 
 
 Q. A good year? -A. Yes, .sir; that was a big year here. 
 
 Q. What did you catch fishing here that year ? — A. Well, a little over nine thou- 
 siind I had a better outfit. 
 
 Q. That is you and your help-mate in the boat? — A. Yes; we could have taken 
 more, but the cannei'ies limitiMl us — they could not handle them. 
 
 Q. Well, but those that they could not handle, what did you do with those? -A. 
 But we don't fish then, sir. 
 
 (.}. You were notified before hand?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (^. What did you get for fish in "89 ? — A. Ten cents apiece — we had to allow the 
 cannery for the boat and net— we got about six and a half cents. 
 
 (.^. In 'S9, however, you got eight thousand fish and sold them for ten cents each? 
 - A. Yes ; one third to the cannery and six and a half cents to myself and j)artner. 
 
 (^. What was the buying price of fish that year? — A. 10 cents, .sir. 
 
 Q. In '90 vou had a boat of your own and you caught nine thousand fish ? — A. 
 A! unit 9,000. 
 
 t^. Ht>w much did yt»u get for those? — A. Ten cents. 
 
 (}. How much in 1891 ?— -A. I didn't fish for the canneries at all last year. 
 
 i}. Did you fish at all? — A. Yes; in the spring, but fish run so batl I could not 
 make wages out of it and having a family I cpiit it and went to other work. 
 
 Q. Do you fish night and day ? — A. Yes : we call it tide work — when the tide suits 
 we go. 
 
 Q. When the cannerymen have their own men employed will they work a greater 
 number of hours than ordinary fishermen ? — A. Yes ; I think they do — they go out at 
 an early hour in the morning and again at night. 
 
 10c— lOJ 
 
148 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 -A. Wt'll. w.- 
 
 Q. Then one boat in the cannery hns two sets of men to work it, while tln' 
 ordinary tisherman liaa but one ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is an advanta^'e, then, over ordinary fishermen ? — A. Well, I think so. 
 
 Q. But would this favour cannerymen, or men workinj,' alone ?- A. Well, T think 
 cannerymen would have the advantage, because a man has ;;ot to sleep some time. 
 
 Q. When working in 1890 you caught 9,000 saluum ; have you any idea what a 
 boat similarly situated, but working with two sets of men, would have taken in tiic 
 same time ? — A. W^ell, they should have put in more if working as much as contract 
 men would ; they shouhl have caught fully one-third more 
 
 Q. W'ell now, those eight and nine thousand salmon you caught, what would they 
 average?— A. Well, I think the first year they did not run as large as the second ycfir 
 I fished. 
 
 Q. But in If^Sy — were they big fi.sh ? — A. They were mixed ; but I think wouM 
 be about six pounds. 
 
 Q. What in 1 890 ?— A. About the same. 
 
 Q. Have you ever weighed fish ? — A. No, sir. 
 Q. Hf»w do you come to the conclusirm that they would be six pounds ?- 
 never weigh them ; we count them when giving them in to the canneries. 
 
 Q. Well, would a conclusion of seven or eight pounds be incorrect? — A. No; I 
 would not think so ; T never weighed them ; I have handled many fish east, and migiit. 
 judge them l)efore, but 1 could not say exactly about the salmon. 
 
 Q. Then your average for three years would l)e about eight t)r nine thousand ; 
 would that be a fair average for ])oats woi-king along with you ? -A. Yes ; T think that 
 would be about the average. . 
 
 Q. How many have you known to be taken with ^ one Itoat for a season ? — A. I 
 have heard of as high as 11.000 fish taken in one year. 
 
 Q. And y(ni think your catch woukl be about an average for fishermen who were 
 industrious, and while you might get between eight or nine thousand, a canneiy boat 
 should have taken between one-third and one-half more ? — A. Yes ; provided they 
 worked like us. 
 
 Q. Did you evei' work in a canneiy, or about one? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you formed any idea about offal being thrown in? — A. Well, that is some 
 thing 1 never gave much heed to, but if the offal is thrown in where the tide can take it 
 away it would not be injurious, but it would Ije worse for nets and the fishermen- that 
 is my opinion. 
 
 Q. Then it is not thrown into the channel now ? - A. Not that T know of ; it 
 would be injurious to tlie nets : we get some of it in the nets now. 
 
 Q. W'here do you fish ? — A. At the mouth of the river, but it was up the livcr 
 where the offal affected our nets. 
 
 ii. Do you know of any unpleasantness, offensiveness, or illness ai'ising from offal 
 being on the shore? — A. Yes ; it tlirows off a very bad smell, but I don't know if it is 
 injurious to health. 
 
 Q. Is it better to live in good air than foul ?- A. ^'es 
 makes a l)ad smell I dont know as it is injurious to health. 
 
 Q. ])o you think it has any eff'ect on fish? — A. No, sii- 
 effect. 
 
 Q. Do you think saw-dust has a bad effect ?~A. Well, T d<m"t know — T know in 
 the rivers at home v/liere saw-dust and refuse from mills has been thi'own in, the trout, 
 once plentiful, iiave been driven away. 
 
 t^. Is there any offensive smell from saw-dust in the water ?--A. Not that I know 
 <.f. 
 
 ^i. Do you know what effects there are from saw-dust in preventing the fish from 
 going up? — A. No, sir; I don't, Imt T think if saw-dust is thrown in in large amounts, 
 it must effect the fish, and if offal is thrown in it might have some effect perhaps — not on 
 salmon but on other fish -I know, for on cod-fishing grounds if fishermen clean fisji 
 and leave it on the gi'ounds, fish will all leave the grounds. I know of some of our best 
 fishing grounds being spoilt by refuse l)eing thrown on the grounds. 
 
 I think so, but while it 
 r don't think it has any 
 
BBITISn COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 149 
 
 <^ And the uiiivfi^nl Imlicf down east is that offal efFects tjie fishing' grounds ? -A. 
 \\\'\\, yes. 
 
 (^. Is then? anything in the water here that would prevent the bad effects found in 
 tlie east ? — A. Well, the water is dirtier here. 
 
 Q. And more dirt added ti> it would Ik'Ii) it, you think ? A. T don't think it 
 uould help it any. 
 
 (.^. And do you think resich-nts and Hritish subjects should j,'et licen-ses / — A. I 
 tliink that all actual Hshernien and residents and Uritish sui)je(ts should j,'et lict^ises. 
 
 Q. Would one license be sufficient ? \. Ves ; 1 think so whert^ so many in the 
 river. 
 
 <^. if one licenses would do the oi'dinary fisherman how many would y<iu say foi- 
 tlie largest allowance for a cainu'ry '. A. 1 don't know, sir; you see I <lon"t understand 
 wliat it tak''s to carry their' l)usiness on. 
 
 Q. Well, but if one boat j)roduces S,000 fish, then if twenty boats wore tishetl at 
 the same ratio that yours was they would gt!t one hundre<l and sixty thousand Hsh. Do 
 you know how many ffsh will make a case of canned tish ! -A. No, .sir ; I have no idea 
 -ii(,t the least. J never worked in a cannery I never saw a case of salmon tiiletl, ex- 
 cept by going through a cannery but that is all. 
 
 i}. It is said that it takes about ten or eleven- .> that twenty men fishing like 
 yourself that year would have produced 10,000 ca.ses for a cannery at that rate of no 
 many tish ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (,^. Have you any idea with regard to the effect of seining tish whether seines jire 
 iiioi'e injurious or less injui'ious for catching ffsh than gill nets I A. Oh, yes ; we l)lame 
 seining for destroying the ffsh on our coasts at home — we used to have abundance of 
 mackerel before Americans came, but after that the Hsh all left. 
 
 Q. What effect would a seine have if diviwu at the mouth of a river — ^(seines) 1 — A. 
 I think it would be injurious to ffshing it would take more ffsh than a gill-ncst, but I 
 don't think it would suit the ffshermen here. It takes the ffsh too much by sui'j)rise and 
 the Hsh get frighteni'd aiul leave the river. The seine draws everything within its reach 
 with a gill-net niany escape, but the seine takes all kinds, i)ig and little, and even ffsh 
 they are not ffshing for, and Hsh get killed, die, I'lrc. I have Hshed al)Out thirty years 
 and think seining inoi'e injurious than the gill-net. 
 
 Q. Its eff'ect in the mouth of a river is that very -erious ? -A. Yes; I think it 
 would be. 
 
 Q. Are the mesh of seines and gill-nets about the same size I -\. No, sir ; seines 
 have (juite a small mesh and take big and little everything within its 'facli. 
 
 Q. Tf Staines wei'e used for catching salmon along the coasts here, should the meshes 
 Ijc the same as the gill-net, if used for salmon alone? — A. Well, 1 don t think it would 
 suit -they have generally smaller mesh. 
 
 i-i. Why a smaller nu^sh .' -A. Well, 1 have always seen smaller used. 
 • Q. But if a gill-net is used at oj foi- sockeye — a seine with three-inch mesh — would 
 it be more destructive r -A. Yes ; it takes so many more small ffsh -it would take both 
 large and small. 
 
 Q. And gill-nets at o l would take nunlium sized all through — a .small ffsh would 
 pass through? — A. Yes. 
 
 ii. What do you think of the Sunday close season, do you think it just ? -A. Well, 
 Hshermen don't think it so well, but it suits eannerymen very well on account of getting 
 away with ffsh on Saturday and cleaning up the cannery, itc, but it does not suit us 
 Hshermen. 
 
 (i. Why? -A. Well, we ffshermen don't like to leave home Sunday night — ^the old 
 law suited us bettei' -from Saturday night to ^^onday morning. 
 
 <,^. But if the eannerymen did not tish on Saturday and if you Hshed on Saturday 
 what would you do with the Hsh I -A. We don't Hsh on Saturday. 
 
 Q. But if you did? — A. Well, if they would not take them why we could not ffsh 
 fill' them, but what T alluded to is the ffshernuMi would rather have the old law. 
 
 Q. All Sunday a close season ?^A. Yes, to tsvelve o'cUwk Sunday night would be 
 better. 
 
160 
 
 MARINK AND KISIIKRIEB. 
 
 Bjf Mi: Annntrotiy : 
 
 Q. Hut if you tishcd uii Saturday and tlio caiinfrics took tisli wliat wimld tlicy du 
 with tliciii ? A. Well, tlicy would have to work all day Sunday. 
 
 Q. And you only Hsli half Sunday — don't you tliink that better than the cannerifs 
 workiii},' all (hiy Sunday ? A. Well, I don't know — I speak from uiy view -F would 
 prefer keeping the Sunday, if possihle. 
 
 Q. Do you think it injurious to the eanning industry if the close season is nuuli' 
 from six o'chick Saturday to six o'clock Monday morning / — A. Well, I don't known. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wifomf : 
 
 Q. Otherwise speaking, would they be able to get suHicient salmon from 12 o'clock 
 Sunchiy niglit for the canneries tocommence Inisiness on Monchiy ?— A. Yes, I think thev 
 would. T know plenty of fishermen on this river who difln't go fishing until 12 o'clock 
 ; ..d yet when they wound up they had just a.s many fish as tho.se who connnenced at 
 6 o'clock Suiuhiy night. I have had to Hsh Sunday night my.self we have to do it. 
 
 Q. Then you think by having a law which allows one man to Hsh on Sunday night, 
 it Ijrings other men who don't like to fish into a bad habit ? — A. If it can be avoiiled I 
 think it a bad habit, but if it could be avoided I think it sliould be avoided. 
 
 t^. Have you any iileas as to an annual close season? — -A. Well, 1 am not very 
 well po.sted on that matter. 
 
 Q. Have you made any obsei-vations as to the effect of the artificial breeding of 
 ti.sh ? — A. No, sir ; none. 
 
 t^. You know there is a hatchery here- -have you any ideas as to its benefit or 
 otherwi.se? — A. 1 think it should not be otherwise than a benefit. 
 
 Q. Why ? — A.. Well, I think it would have a tendency to increase fisli. 
 
 Q. What is your idea as to the value of boat licenses -should one j)art of the 
 province have a discriminating fee in its favour — should all be alike? — A. 1 think all 
 should be alike--a man on the Skeena or Naas should be in the same position as oni- 
 on the Fraser river. 
 
 Q. Do you think that aj)plies to canneries as well? — A. Y'es, all licenses should he 
 the .same. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to .state ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 .1 
 
 IJritaii 
 
 A. 
 
 i!< 
 
 I,' I 
 
 Is' 
 
 Mr. Alex. Ewk\ (speaking from the audience).-—! would like to .say that this 
 gentleman says he oidy Hshed his license a short time in the spring — that goes to .show 
 that there are more licenses than are really worked. 
 
 ]Mr. Wii.MOT. — Well, but the canneries are api>lying for double the nundjer. 
 
 Mr. EwKN. — I'>ut it depends on tht^ year — sometimes we don't reijuire them, but 
 often we do. This last witness says he only fished the license a short time — practically 
 it may not ha\e been fished the usual length of time. 
 
 (Voice from the audience, Mr. McLashan). — Y''es, it was fished. 
 
 Mr. Armstronc. — No more interruj)tions now, please. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, if the man didn't fish the licenses him.«elf he may ha\e let it 
 out on shares, etc. 
 
 Mr. Ar.mstrong.— Don't talk to him — ^not unless he is under oath. We cannot 
 discuss matters this way. 
 
 Ml'. EwKN. — I consider I am under oath yet. 
 
 Mr. Arm.stronc;. — Well, we don't want any dispute here or any arguments — I will 
 not have it. 
 
 Mr. AViLMOT. — And I think we should disabuse the minds of gentlemen that 
 because they have taken the oath they are under oath for all time — the oath only applies 
 to the time a man is giving his evidence. 
 
 
f 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HERT 0OMM(8»ION. 
 
 151 
 
 J()M\ IIOSS, a rosidont of New Wostiniiister J )!• Hixtecii yoars, a native of Great 
 Mi'itain, and a Hshrrnian for sixteen years, was duly sworn. 
 
 /{y Mr. ]Vilmot : 
 
 Have y(»ii any sperial matter, ^^r. Moss, tliat you wish to Hay in rcj^ard to licenses? 
 — A. I have had hcenses for the last two yeai's. 
 
 (•i. Where did you fish? — A. At Sea Fsland on the North Ann. 
 
 ^i. What depth of net did you use? — A. Thirty nicsiies . 
 
 t^. Is that the usual net used there? — ^A. Yes; from twenty-five to thirty meshes. 
 
 Q. Is that the same sized mesh luft In<lians use? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What (|uantity of Hsh have you taken there on an avi'i'a<,'e at that point durinj,' a 
 sea.son ?— A. I have averaged between three and four thousand sockeye- we tish nothing 
 else hut soekeye down ther« . 
 
 Q. .Vre the fish that you get there disposed of to the eanieries? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the usual price ? ~A. Som<*tinies ten cents so netimes fifteen. 
 
 <.^. What the last two years?— A. Kifteen cents^Mr. Kwen was giving twenty, I 
 l)elie\e. 
 
 Q. Out of the number of Indians on the ranch down there, what number get 
 licenses? A. T(mi. 
 
 Q. And if all obtained licenses ? A. Thirty-four. 
 
 Q. Do all want licenses? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it be beneficial ? —A. Yes; I think so if no limitation all should get 
 licenses. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. A rntxtroiKj : 
 
 But any Indian with no boat and net? — A. Oh, well, of course if fishermen or 
 Indians have no boats and nets they get them from the canneries and pay for them in 
 
 tish. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Hn 5 a person who gets a license an advantage over those who have not? — A. 
 Yes ; of coui'se they have, especially lately — years ago it was different — a man could 
 make more by the day than on a license — that was when the river was open to every- 
 body. 
 
 Q. Then men made more wages when the river was open to everybody than when 
 a certain number of licenses was established ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How have you obsei'ved about oflal —is it all thrown in at Sea Island ? — A. Yes, 
 sir, I don't think it effects fish. 
 
 Q. How about men ? — A. I don't think it injiM-es anybody I have been about it 
 for sixteen years 
 
 Q. If the offal law was carried out it would eflect you, would it not? — A. i suppo.se 
 you throw your ofial in the same as the canneries ? — A. ( )h, I don't know as it would - 
 I would just as soon do anything with it if there was a i-ule. 
 
 Q. Is it not easier to throw it in the river? -A. Oh, yes ; if a man cleans a fish 
 for himself he just goes down and throws tlie offal in. 
 
 Q. Are fish as plentiful as years ago ? - A. I think they are more plentiful. 
 
 <}. Can you assign a rea.on for that ? — \. No ; I cannot— they are more abundant 
 than years ago. 
 
 Q. You catch more of them ? — A. Yes ; and they are more abundant. 
 
 (i. Do you know anything of artificial breeding of fish ? — A. No, sir ; I don't know 
 anything of that. 
 
 Q. Do you think it an advantage to have hatcheries established on the river? — A. 
 I think it would do gttod in course of time. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the Sunday close season ? A. T think there should be a 
 close season — the present one is about right as it is to everybody — the Sunday should be 
 closed. 
 
 Q. You have something to do with Indians, have you not ? — A. I have had a good 
 deal to do with them since I have been in the country. 
 
152 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. You are not otKoially connected with them in any way — interpreter or anythinj^ 1 
 — A. No, sir ; not at all. 
 
 Q. What do you think of granting licenses to everybody who applies for them ?— 
 A. I think it fail- if thci'e is no limitation. 
 
 Q. But if there is a limitation ? — A. Oh, Jiritish subjects only. 
 
 CJ. What about transferi-ing licenses, is it right ? — A. No, sir ; 1 don't thi"k it is 
 — a maji who gets a license should be an actual fisherman and employ his own boat and 
 net. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Don't you think all should get licenses who have a boat and net of their own ? 
 — A. I think so — yes. 
 
 Ji>/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 C^. What is youi- idea as to the fee for a boat, should it )w the same to all tislicr- 
 men ?— A. Yes, all fishermen. 
 
 Q. And the same to fishermen and canners ? — A. Yes ; all the same and the same 
 on all riv(>rs. 
 
 Q. You have been delivering fish to cannei's- have cannei'sany advantage over you 
 or men ha\ing a license t\»r one boat by reason of having four men to woi'k al)oat ? — -A. 
 No : I don't think it is. 
 
 t^. Then four men don't catch moi'e fish than two? — A. No ; they generally don'f 
 — men working by the day don't generally catch moi'e than tw(j men working by 
 contract. 
 
 Q. But cannot four men relieve one another? — A. Yes ; but men work'nt' 'jy the 
 day don't work as well as others. 
 
 C^>. Then a boat with four men cannot catch more fish than a boat with two men? 
 Additional men don't make any difference then ? — A. I don't think it makes any 
 difference. 
 
 Q. Bather hard on those who hire four men to do two mens woi'k, is it not? — A. 
 No ; but they hire Indian lab(»ur to get the wom<'n and others to work in the cannery. 
 
 Q. lUit would the four wives of the four nuMi be engaged in the cannery ? — A. Yes ; 
 and the children too. 
 
 ^ {.}. Have you any idea with I'egard to the; method of fish being put up in the can- 
 neries .' — A. 1 don't understand you, sii-, I have been ai'ound canneries all the while. 
 
 C^. Well, do you know of the system pursued when fish are brought to the can- 
 neries ? A. Yes, they ai'e brought in scows to the wharf. 
 
 Q. Wliat then ? A. They stai-jb to clean them on the wharf. 
 
 Q. Ts it undei- cover ? A. Yes ; they are thrown up from the boats and then 
 cleaned. 
 
 Q. Are they just taken out from the pile and cleaned on a table? — A. Yes. 
 
 (.i. What next occurs? A. They are headed and gutted and passed over to aiu)ther 
 crowd — the heads are cut off and then the Klootchies take the fish ami gut them — then 
 they go thi'ough water and then they ai'e cut up and these go to the salt table. 
 
 Q. AVliat is done with the head, tail and entrails ? — A. They go down to a crib 
 below the caiuiery — it goes oft' the table into a hole anil if there is no boat underneath 
 it falls into the river. 
 
 Q. Are canneries Iniilt on piles? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. The piles are pretty ninnerous ? - .\. Yes: but they generally have cribs 
 underneath. 
 
 Q. Does the water go through these cribs ?- - A. Yes ; they ai'e made of planks. 
 
 Q. Does the watcM' pass through ?— A. Yes; the water passes through with the 
 tide. 
 
 Q. What is the usual average s'ze of sockeye ? A. Fi'om se\en to eijrht p(<unds — 
 some years they ai'e bigger than otiiers. 
 
 CJ. When the lu^ads and tails are taken off and the entrails taken out, how is the 
 tish cut in pieces ?- -A. With a kind of long revolving knife. 
 
 Q. 
 
 Q. 
 
 say— f( 
 
 Q. 
 Q- 
 
 they ?- 
 No, sir 
 
 Q. 
 
 ness w 
 nery — 
 tion. 
 
 <■>. 
 is as 
 
 (i\ 
 these 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 153 
 
 Q. Are they cut up to a special size 1 -A. They are cut to fit the cans. 
 
 Q. How many shces of salmon would they ,ii;et for cans ? A. Well, I could not 
 say — four or five -about that accoi'dinjj; to the size of the risli. 
 
 Q. But lish are all of the same size —very nearly, at least ? — A. Well, 1 suj>pose so. 
 
 Q. Now if any person should .say that was not so, they would tiot he correct, would 
 they 1 — A. I should not tidnk .so. 
 
 Q. You are not gi\ing an exa,yj^(M'ated account, are you. Tt is not misleadinij*? — A. 
 No, sir, T am giving an account as nt^ar as 1 know. 
 
 ii. It is very interesting work, is it not, to see a cannery I'unning? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What probable numbei' of men would you think necessary to carry on the busi- 
 ness when you catch four or eight tliousand tish / — A. It depends on the size of the can- 
 nery — some have as high as 200 — sometimes tlicy cannot get tlu? men on any considera- 
 tion. 
 
 ii. Of the.se 1*00 wliat number might be whitemen ? — A. Well, some years — Kwen's 
 is as l)ig as any caiuiery on the river and he employs as many as he can get. 
 
 Q. l>ut would there be any otiiers than for the I'etoi'ts and Ixisses.' How many of 
 these? — A. Oh, eight, ten, twelve — tlie rest Ivlotchr.u-n. Indians and Uiiinamen. 
 
 Q. What principally / A. Principally Chinamen. 
 
 By Mr. AnnxfrotKj : 
 
 Q. Working inside? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Don't you think there is as many Indian women and Indiai; boys as Chinamen 
 in some canneries? — A. Well, no ; they cannot get them, they get a< many as tliey can. 
 
 C^. Then you think about ten whitemen would lie the proportion to the average 
 cannery ? A. Yes. 
 
 (^>. Ciiinamen do tliey lish outside ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Indians generally and whitemen ?-"A. Yes, sir, all colours all nationalities. 
 
 (J. AVliat do you mean by ''all nationalities" ? — A. Well, (ire.'ks, Italians, Chilians 
 Sandwich Islanders, i<:c. 
 
 (.^). Would these l)e fishing on their own licenses .'~~ A. .Most )f them tish on their 
 own geai". 
 
 (,). Say that a cannery having its 200 jiersons, ei.qiloys al)out ninety inside they 
 woukl be Indian women, Chinamen, boys, itc, with about ten men to manage the whole 
 thing inside and a nund)er of boats fishing outside 'or the cannery woukl l)e Italians, 
 (ireeks, and others what would be the pi'oportion (f outside foreigners to the 200? - 
 A. Well, I could not answer that. There is (juite ii nund)er on tlie river. 
 
 (^). Do you ever do any sea fishing ? A. No, sir. 
 
 (,^). Weil, do you thiid\ the Indian Chief we had, up made a mistake w lien he said 
 tiiere was not su many fish as there used to be ? — A. Well, 1 don't know, the Indians 
 always say ilnit, 'tut 1 don't think they really know. 
 
 (,^. Is there anything else you would like to put in? A. No ; nothing else. 
 
 Captain C. CHANT who had given evidence on the 20th Fel)ruary, (ji. Si.) was I'e- 
 called antl sworn. 
 
 Jtji Afr. Wi/uHif : 
 
 Q. You have been a fishery guardian under the Covermnent ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (,)). What was your beat of ojterations ?- -A. Krom Mr. Ewen's cannei'y up to Stave 
 Kiver. 
 
 Q. Oh, your duties were not below -not down the rivei' '- A. No, sir. 
 
 ii. Who is guardian <lown there? — A. Mr. (!reen. 
 
 Q. In your duties as guardian what cour.sedid you pursue to see that boats licensed 
 Ijy the dei)artment are only used? — A. The boats are numliered they have numliers on 
 the sides of the boat. 
 
 (,^. In starting out at si.\ o'clock Sunday night, what is the course pursued? -A. 
 Well, thev get ready with boat and net al)out four or live o'clock and wait until six. 
 
154 
 
 MAEINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 (}. Do fill .start oat at once ? — A. Oli, well, some will get out aiul lay on the oars 
 ready to start. 
 
 Q. How do they know the time ?— A. ]Most of them have watches. 
 
 C^. Are you suj)pos('(l to l)e there? — A. Yes; F have known a case — three or four 
 years ago — ^wheii a man started out at four o'clock. 1 had liim brought up and lie was 
 fined accordingly. 
 
 (Ji Are watcluss all kept pretty much alike? — A. Well, T would iu)t like to .say 
 that. 
 
 Q. Have you known of any instance where a hoat nund)ered inl8!)0asa ceitain 
 number would tish with the same oi' other number in "91 ? — A. Not as I am aware of. 
 
 Q. Are the numbers all put on each year? — A. Yes; I can tell if a number is 
 new. 
 
 (,►. J>ut supfiose a man got No. 18 iii'cnse in '90 and might get No. 'J.'i in '91 — 
 W(mld he change the number .' — Well, I don't know if he w(tuld. 
 
 Q. Well, how do you know if that is liis riglit numbei' ? A. Well, 1 get a l)0ok 
 from tlie otHce, and I look at it and see if it is tlu^ same number. 
 
 //// J/r. AnnstriiiKi : 
 
 (J. And the mnnbei' of the license don't always correspond with tlie numbci- on the 
 Ijoat .' — A. No. sir ; last year I saw a boat which did not agree with the book, and 1 
 asked him aljout it, and lie said .Mo\\at liad gi\en him the license, and I hauled him uj). 
 
 t^. lUit, for instance, if No. 18 w.is the boat and license last year and he got a li- 
 cense for the .same boat this year No. '2'.S, would the b.)at"s number be changed ? — A. 
 Oh, yes ; he would re paint the numlKM'. 
 
 (,). Then the number t)f the license and tlu^ number on tht; boat corresponds e\ery 
 yeai'? — A. Yes. 
 
 ■ /;// Mr. Wilnwt : 
 
 (}. You ha\(' Iteen a guardian how long .'-A. I'^oui" years. 
 
 Q. During those four yeais has tiiere l)een only one conviction for impro]ier nui. 
 bering? — A. Only two that I have iiad. 1 have to .settle many (juarrels and ilisputes, 
 iVc. 
 
 Q. What is the limit they have to Hsh apart? -A. The length of a net from one 
 another. They very often get one ahead of the other and that is n<jt accortling to law. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. AnitsfrttiK/: 
 
 (J. Do they generally leave one third of the river open ? — A. Well, yes; up here 
 they do very well -perhaps not so well lower down. 
 
 <.^). Is there any other guardian down the i-iver except Mr. (rreen ? ~A. Mr. 
 McDonald was last year on the North .Vrm. 
 
 11// Mr. WI/,H»/ : 
 
 ii. Is that wh.M'e the Indians fish? A. It is the Arm on this side the North Ann 
 of the Fraser liiver -McDonald was guaidian there — he takes in from down below here 
 a piece all the way down to the uutiith I takefi'om Mi'. ICweii's i-annery up to the head 
 of Harrison Lake -I went up with the sceam launch — generally Mr. I'jweii's to Mission. 
 I take in i'itt IJiver and Stave River Pitt Hiver always. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. A riiixt roiKj : 
 
 (}. Do you tind many violations of the law?- A. No, sir : not many— sometiineB 
 little (juarrels — they keep to the routine of their busintiss. 
 
 //// Mr. ll'////,o/ .• 
 
 i). Y 
 
 ou ai 
 
 '(' not troubled then with many infractions of the law? — A. M'ell, I 
 
 am 
 
 an 
 
 lund. and the.se men would rather stop oil' at the projier time than lose boat and net. 
 Q. And that was the only ease of seizure during your term of service— four years ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Wei 
 
 to (J 
 
 catec 
 
 Leci 
 
 Siwi 
 
 to a 
 
 and 
 
 and 
 
BRITtSH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 15!> 
 
 
 an 
 
 Q. What was the decision of the Magistrate in tliis case of the Vxiat iind net? — A. 
 Well, the man could not speak jLjood Kn,i,'lish he [)lea(led off — 1 think they tele^rajtlied 
 to Ottawa — 1 don't know exactly how they settled this. 
 
 Q. And was he fined any sum of money? -A. I think he was fined the exj)enses. 
 
 i^. Then the penalty was nothing' ? The law is penalty so nuich and nets confis- 
 cated? — A. Oh, yes ; [ am wi-oni^ sir 1 took some nets from a i nan of the name <»f 
 Lecroix — T was sent up there and I found nets set aci-oss a creek, and I went to the 
 Siwash and said what was he doiii^' with nets he said they were not his and liclonj^ed 
 to a man up here, but h.e said they didn't l)eloiig to him, they Ijelonged to the Siwash — 
 and I hauled them (the nets) into the boat and brought them down -so they fined him, 
 and he paid the fine. 
 
 Q. Then a system is pursued that a person who ofi'ends against tht? law — as far as 
 your knowledge goes — lu^ may have to jiay the penalty of the court but pay no tine. 
 
 Ml'. Aini.sTiioNc;. Well, you .sec; the magistrate is genei'ally lenient when a mn 
 does not understand lOnglish, itc. 
 
 n,!/ Mr. Wlhiiof : 
 
 i.l. Are you aware if any instructions came direet from Ottawa to let the man (jff ? 
 — A. No, sir ; I gav& it into the hands of the magistrate and he settled it. 
 
 Q. Well, what ! want to show is persons violating the law they get off as easily as 
 the can ners do about the offal the law is of no avail ? A. Well, 1 don't know what 
 the reason was lie was sick, I think, too. 
 
 Mr. An\lsTiioN(i. Well, Mr. Chairman, 1 cannot agree with you -I thiid< the l;iw 
 as regards fishing is as strictly carried out, as nmch as in any other country. 
 
 Ml-. WiLMOT. — T can umhii-stand that a citizen of the country here would naturally 
 stand up for his mountains. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTKoNo. A\'ell, theri! has been so little \iolation of the law that there has 
 been few convictions. 
 
 Ih/ Xi Wilniitt : 
 
 i^. Ib)sv long would it take you to go from Hwen's to the Mission? — A. Oh, four 
 or five hours it depends on the tide. 
 
 Q. NN'ell, how can you tell if Sunday fishing is not done ? — A. Well, of course I 
 cannot see all the way at once I do wliat 1 can and often 1 am out all night. 
 
 Q. Well, I only say this to show that it is aljsurd to have one man to attend to so 
 many miles of river and expect the law to be crrried out - how far is your beat ? — A. 
 l''orty miles. 
 
 .Mr. Armstkon*;. — Oh, of course, it is imjtossible for him to l)e here and at .Mission 
 at the same time there should be more guardians. 
 
 A'// Mr. Wi/wof 
 
 I used to yet on foui- or five 
 
 (}. You ai'e on (hity the whole season ?- A. No, sir 
 months this season I was to get seven months. 
 
 Q. What time do you commence ? — xV. About •-'(Ith March. 
 
 Q. And end when? X. September after that I go to the Hatchery. 
 
 (,^. And how do you get up and down the river? -A. With the steam launcli. 
 
 (.}. It is possible there might be many infi-actions dui'ing tlu^ night as regards these 
 numbers on the boats? A. Well, theremightbe 1 look pretty sharp during the night, 
 liut -itill there might be infract i(tns. 
 
 Q. Nunib(!rs miglit be changed and you would not know anything alioutit? — A. 
 Well, I generally look sharp aft<'r them 1 know the men and the numbers I get a 
 book from the department with every mans name and nuudier. 
 
 Q. liut that does iu)t prevent a man from having two numbers -well, that will do, 
 uidess you ha\'e something further to ask the witness, Mr. .iVrmstrong ? — A. No; I have 
 nothing further, 
 
 Mr WiLMOT. - Very well, that will do Captain Grant. 
 
156 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 On the lequest Ijeiiii^ luiule l)v the chairman for any further witnesses now to come 
 forward : 
 
 E. A. W^NDHAMS. — I would prefer ijiviiii; my evidence to-morrow when Mr. 
 Higgins is here. 
 
 /!>/ .][,: \Viln,i,t : 
 
 (.i. Well, T don't think that is right 1 think it a reflection upon the Commi.ssi(mer.s 
 present? — A. Oh, now; I don't mean that, but I wouUl like Mr. Higgins to he pre- 
 sent. 
 
 <^. Well, hut here are Commissioners apjjoiuted to come here, and if Mr. Higgins 
 is not here it is not our fault suppose Mr. Higgins is not here to-morrow — would you 
 give your evidence at all .' — A. Well, I would give it if my evidence is necessary — I 
 only state it as a preference -if it is offensive, why 
 
 Q. Oh, no ; it is not oti'ensive- -we simply state it hecaust; the court is now sitting? 
 — A. Well, I understand that the evidence was given at our convenience somewhat. 
 
 Q. No, sir ; at the court's convenience -but we cannot delay the court ? — A. T don't 
 wish to delay the court -you see we had nothing to do here yesterday afternoon and we 
 heai'd you were coming here to tak(! evidence to-day. 
 
 Mr. AnM.sTKo\(i. — And we now have nothing to go on with this afternoon. 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMoT. -And Mr. Higgins cannot get here until two o'clock to- 
 morrow .' A. Well, as regards my own feelings 1 would prefer giving 
 it l)efore the whole board, lam willing to give it this afternoon ] have stated my 
 wishes in tlie matter and J now leave my.self in your hands, but would it j)ut the Com- 
 mission to incou\enience if 1 gave my evidence in N'ictoria. 
 
 Ml'. AiiMSTiiOXG. — Well, we do object to taking evidence on Fraser liiver iisheries 
 in Victoria T (h.in't see why T should goto Victoria and liear evidence on Fraser River 
 fishing and I am not going to do it if 1 can ])ossil)ly avoid it, and 1 don't think the gen- 
 tlemen engaged in business here ai'e treating this part of the country fairly in in.sisting 
 on going to N'ictoria to gise their evidence, (su])j)ressed applause fi'oni majority of au- 
 dienc(\) 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. Order, order, gentlemen, (continuing to Mr. Wadhams). JJecause, 
 if a man tells the truth he can tell it here just as well as in Victoria, and if there are 
 any intluences being brought to Ijear it should Ije avoided and if tliose influences are at 
 work to prevent a New Westminster man giving evidence here it should be prevented. 
 
 ^Ir. AimsTi{0\(;. V'e would like to liave your evidence to-d<ay. 
 
 ^li'. Wadhams. 1 have been chai'ged with discourtesy, but I don't think it all on 
 one side -I am willing: to gi\i' my e\ idence now. 
 
 /lij Mr. U'l/tnuf : 
 
 Q. Weil, but, Mr. Wadhams, don't say we implied discourtesy ? A. Well, 1 was 
 changed \\ith discourtesy I would rather give my e\ ideiu'e to the full board. 
 
 (.J. Well, but you certainly did thiow reflections on the two (.,'oimuissioners here, for 
 it .seemed as if you thought they were incompetent? A. Well, I will be willing to give 
 e\idetice this afternoon 1 am in the hands of the Commission. 
 
 Mr. W'li.NKrr. Very well this Conuuissi(jn is adjourned until this afternoon at 
 one o clock. 
 
 The Commission adjourned at IlMO p.m. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 15T 
 
 INTEllMISSTON. 
 
 Nkw Wkstminstkh, B.C., 
 
 2")tli Fchfuary, HS92. 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The Commission I'e-assenibleil fuul was ciiUed to oiderat l..'}0 ji.iii. 
 
 Pri'Si'iit : 
 ^r.r. Wilinot, in the ehaii' ; ^Fi'. Hlieriil' Annstront; ; uiid tlie SetM-etarv. 
 
 E. A. WADHAMS, a native of the Ignited States, hut a resident of Britisli Co- 
 hunbia since 1858, a sahnon canner, was duly sworn. 
 
 lijf Mr. Wilnmt : 
 
 (}. Would you like to put any views befoi'c this Coiiiniission .' A. Yes ; I would 
 like to put some with respect to what - (]ie.sitatin,<f). 
 
 Q. (leneral views as ref;ards tlie salmon inchistry and fisliei'ies of Ihitish Colundjia? 
 — A. I prefer tirst to speak of tlie weekly clost^ time. As now ai'raniicd it is generally 
 acceptable to canners and we think there are reasons why it should not be changed. I 
 think it would l)e apparent to any one when we commeiiee operations on Monday, to get 
 them (the fish) we havts to send out boats on Sunday evening. Tlie close time from six 
 a.m., Saturday, until si.\ p.m., Sunday, is acceptable, and F t]iiid< extendingthe close time 
 fui'ther would be very detrimental to the canners. 
 
 i}. You think it detrimental to Sunday night at twelve o'elock ? A. Yes; tliey 
 would have hardly sufficient Hsh to go on with nn ^Fonday, and if w(! haw, no tish to go 
 on with on Monday it introduces labour troubles, l)ecaus(' the men don t like to lose 
 time on ]\Fonday, and if extended to twelve o'clock there would be a gi'eat deal of illegal 
 lishing that could not be pre\'ented, and so still more if extended to six a.m. Monday, 
 and aside from that ti'ouble it would introduce lal)()ur troubles in the canneiy and in this 
 connection I would say that the fishery guanlians should be provided witli steam laun- 
 ches in order to do elTecti\e work- -whei'e they oidy liave row boats to get among the 
 fishermen they cannot perform their duties at all. 
 
 Q. Then you think the weekly close time a correct one botii in the interest of the 
 canners ami the eommunity .' .\. Yes : of course some may lia\'e coiiseientious \ lews 
 about going out on Sunday -but canners would respect that F don't thiid< anyone 
 would mak(! any one to go though, of course, it is in iheir interest to go. 
 
 iy The reason, ^Fr. ^^'adhams. why (|uestions are put alniut Sunday to twelve 
 oclock is on account of views of persons that Sunday sliould not be broken you think 
 for all purposes, however, that it is better as it is? A. i think .so, decidely. 
 
 (}. TFave you any \iews av to an annual close season .' A. AVell, I think cainiers 
 would lecommend it tiiat a c-ertain jmrt of the year should l)e kept as a close season 
 I don't think it very wwiterial in tlfc interest of tish that is, because most of them have 
 gone up at mid-suiuwier I think that the recommendation of the canners was that the 
 conuiiencement of ibie sejij^ m - louM be 1st .Maich, ending 2"»th August, with a 
 o] inch mesh, extension m»s««urv. 
 
 that I wit! 
 
 give — 
 
 (,,v. That sluwikl be a cioise -*<(t*;on .' .V, No; I have a memo. 
 
 i). Yf>\i n>fvtn that sMuild i»e the ojien .sen.soTi .' A. Yes. 
 
 <(). Then the annual cMse time ' A. The close ^^-ason irom tit'-t NoM^ndjer to tirst 
 Maivh each vear was the rt'commendation '.t the canners. 
 
 Q. For all tish ? A. For salmon 
 
 (J. 1st Novendter to 1st Murch i eWse s<>aso»i for all purposes? -A. Yes; of 
 course thev don't insist uptin .1 cloi»e season ar all. but that is our recommendation ist 
 March to L'*kh August fishing to W allowed with mesh not less tlian -y'l incli mesh ; 
 
158 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 tliat from 25th August to Sotli September, both days inclusive, fishing l)e allowed 
 with mesh not less than "4 inch mesh and from "Joth September to the 1st November, 
 ishing be allowed with nets not less than 5'^ inch mesh again. 
 
 Q. Will you just explain, ^Ir. Wadhams, the object of the close seasou from 2oth 
 August to 1st March would it be tor all tish ? What lish would that cover, do you know, 
 the s))ring salmon ? -A. It would cover the spawning season tf a great many of them. 
 
 i-l. Of the spring salmon? Of the .sockeye ? A. 1 think it would cover the spawn- 
 ing season of all the sockeye that would be caught down here on the lower rivei' now 
 those hat go into the interior on the head waters it is not known 1 would not ven- 
 ture ai, opinion as to what their spawning season is, 
 
 (,^. ]>ut you think 1st Xovendjer to 1st March would cover the operations of spring 
 .salmon ]- -.\ Yes; and all sockeye tliat would be in the lower river. 
 
 Q. And Humpbacks .' A. AN'ell, we don't consider them anyway. 
 
 Q. lUit they .'re here and may l)ecome an article of food ?- A. \Vell, the close sea- 
 son at that time on tiic iowo'r river would protect any tish. 
 
 Q. But would not liotli August to 1st November cover sockeye ? A. Yes; but that 
 would be a period when we ar'^ tishing for spring salmon and not many sockeye^ would 
 be going up at that time. The sockeye run is generally over on the '2i)th August. 
 
 (j|. Then do 1 undei'staiid that s])ving salnntn or " C^uinnat'" -you b(>gin to catch 
 them between the L*.")th August and^'L'oth September? A. Yes; we catch .some before 
 the sockeye run and scmie between the .sockeye run and the " Cohoes " — of cour.se they 
 would not bear the iis(> of the spring salmon at any time during the open season. 
 
 Q. Do you think that some spring .'^almon spawn after the first of September? A. 
 I dont know that. 
 
 Q. They UMially do elsewhere that is the reason T ask you ? A. Well, F know 
 that some of them do, liut whether all do or not, T don't know. 
 
 Q. Weil, do you think sockeye spawn after 1st September? 
 
 i}. As regards the "Cohoe"? A. They are still later. 
 
 Q. They would l)e protected after the 1st September ? A. 
 tion then would cover the whole of them. 
 
 i.}. Then why not say no tishing after 1st September for all thes(> tish would not 
 that cover all? And on that basis the others would have opportunity to spawn would 
 they not .' A. 1 think that our view is that the fish that we would catch after the 2")th 
 August, although they would not spawn foi' some time later -they are hardly in condi- 
 tion. 
 
 t^). Yes : they are in a piegnant state ? A. Yes. 
 
 (^. Then the.se fish not good f'>i' eating, should they not be allowed t(» escapt; from 
 all kinds of destruction to l)enefit the river afterwaids ? It would not efi'ect the canner 
 to stoj) tishing after 1st Sej)tember .' A. Well, theonly thing i>; "Coho.'s " come in later 
 — we tliiidc the close .sea.son of the month would allow of .sockeyes that are laggards to 
 go ])ast. 
 
 Q. Then do you can large fjuantities of Cohoes ? — A. Not usu.'diy only when there 
 is a scarcity of sockeyes. 
 
 <,). And foi' that purpose you want them free to be caught till the 2.1th September? 
 —A. Yes. 
 
 (()■ ^\ hat proportion of canning establishments deal in Cohoes, or do they use 
 them when sockeyes are plentiful ? — A. Not many la.st year! don't think any were 
 canned at al! 
 
 (^. They are good tish for ■ anning ? --A. Ordinarily I don't think they are profit 
 able to can, but with good mai'kets and as we ha\e the outlits we want to use them. 
 
 C^. Do they stand second in (juality to the sockeye for commercial purposes ?--- A. 
 Y'^es ; about that that is they are note(|Ually as good. 
 
 (•>. Is a large trade in regard to spring salmon done from 25th August to 2r)th Sep- 
 tember .'-A. Not a large business, but .some years they run more plentiful than other.s, 
 and if plentiful several canneries usually pack them. 
 
 Q. Was it not the desire of canners that the system of .utiticial breeding should be 
 applied to " (^(uinnat "' at tir.st ?- \. I think so, but 1 think .views varied on that point 
 
 A. A great many do. 
 Yes .• 1 think protec- 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 159 
 
 -my own views were that sockeye were our principal tish and that chief attention 
 sliould be given to them because of their uniformity of coloui' - T think some think more 
 notice shoukl be given to s])ring sahnon. 
 
 Q. On the Cohnnbia River is not spi'ing sahnon more highly prized ? - A. Yes ; T 
 think that is the only tish of the kind there. 
 
 Q. And tb?y come in competition with your tish in the Knglish markets ? — A. Oh, 
 the Columbia lliver tish are supei'ioi- Hsli. 
 
 Q. And more cans can be made from one tish? A. Yes; they are larger and T 
 don't think on the Columbia River they are troubled with wliite sahnon, while hei'e 
 most of our spring salmon ai'e white. 
 
 Q. Can you give any reason why some should l)e white and some red? A. Well 
 >onie have a theory 
 
 tj. Well, what is the theory? — A. Ft is they change colour when coming intt) fresh 
 water — it is supposed that the spi'ing salmon come into the (iulf of Georgia and remain 
 there some time in brackish water and so lose their colour. 
 
 Q. But. would the Gulf of Georgia be brackish water — the Frascr ]{ive; runs in 
 there —the Colunibin, River runs out into sea, salt water would not salmon play about 
 tiie Gulf as at the Coluinl)ia Paver? A. Well, I think the (iult of Georgia would be 
 more impregnated with fresh Mater than the mouth of the Columbia Rivei'. 
 
 Q. Well, 1 think the theory would hardly hold good ? A. Well, i would not be 
 disposed to defend the theory myself. 
 
 Q. No; it is a })eculiarity ; and as this Commission is formed in order to get all 
 information possible on the sul)ject. and as canners, ikc, have asked for a Commission 
 for that purpos' , you will not mind cpiestions of this character. It if remarkable that 
 spring salmon here are not taken on account of their colour, wiiile in the Columbia River 
 they are thought the liest '. A. Yes ; but tish on the Columbia River are all of good 
 colour. 
 
 Q. Then you think that l>otli white and red and the sockeye should be protected after 
 L'oth Hepteniber ? -A. AVell, we recommend the tishing until November— that permits 
 the catching of colioes. 
 
 Q. If you tish until 1st NoNcmber it will co\er the exact spawning time of any tish 
 you have mentioned mostly of spring salmon, generally of sockeye, and wholly of 
 colioes? Either the actual spawning time or times when they are far advanced in preg- 
 nancy. Now the spawning time we are talking of would not JiJ'ply to the river till 
 spawning is tlone in Huvial })urtions of the river and lakes. Have you any other remarks 
 to submit? — A. No ; not with regard to that. The next subject I would like to speak 
 of would be the hatchery. ]My views are favourable to it I think that we have already 
 received lienetit from it. 
 
 Q. And do you think it would be a benetit to increase the number of hatcheries on 
 l)ranches of the P^-aser and elsewhere in the province? A. 1 think it would be desir- 
 able to estal>li^li l)raiiches in the head waters of the Fraser River and its tributaries and 
 by so doing we would prolmlily get an early run. The i)resent method is we get the 
 salmon that come into the river in September well, that is practically the later part 
 of the I'un, and it seems to me as though the experience of the last two years rather 
 shows that. In '89 the run came in very late, so late that many of the canners were 
 vei'V much alarmed, and the same last y(>ar liefore the sockeye came in. 1 think if we 
 went to the head waters and established hatcheries there we would be more apt to get 
 the tish that come into the rivers earlier and so introduce the tish that come in earlier. 
 
 Q. Would not that apply to spring salmon as well ? A. Very likely it svould. We 
 have a run of .spring salmon say from March until the sockeye come in, but in A})ril 
 and May they come in jiretty plentiful and not so many white salmon among them. 
 
 Q. Then if earlier tish wov caught and lired, you would probably get earlier tish 
 again ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you think more hatcheries should be constructed? — A. T do; now my 
 catch in '1)1 was i'l the neighbourhood of 12,000 cases, fully tifty per cent more than 
 before. Of course we consider the tish come into the river in cycles of four years. 
 
 Q. Would your name appeal' on the reports of '90 '' ^\'adhalll '' or the syndicate ? — 
 A. No; as " Wadhams" in '90, but I am referring to four years previous to '91. In '87, 
 1 think, 1 packed a few cohoes in that year — that was a scarce year — 
 
160 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Did you jxick as many in 1)1 as '90 ? A. Well, not(|uite — 1 packed nearly 
 12,000 cases last year. 
 
 y. Tn XU you packed 17,000? A. Yes, sir ; that was a biy year. 
 
 Q. And away liack in '8G you packed 14,000? — A. Yes, sir ; tlie cycles come every 
 four years. 
 
 Q. And the same way in small runs ? -A. Yes ; that is our experience. 
 
 Q. Tn "88 your pack was 5,720 cases and you look forward then to "92 as a small 
 run? — A. Yes: a small run. 
 
 Q. If it tuins out you tfet as many as in "90 and "S9, what conclusion would you 
 come to? — A. Well, T think it would be conclusive evidence that it would be brought 
 .about by the hatchei'v. 
 
 Q. Well, althdugh 1 may be said to be the fathei'of this industry on this continent, 
 I must say yon are almost prepai'ed to go farther than T am ? A. Well, I would not 
 say it would be conclusive, but I think it would show good pi'oof. 
 
 Q. What (|uestion next ? — A. The matter of offal. The ])revalent opinion now is 
 tliat offal as now handled by the canners is not injui'ious to the salmon. 
 
 (.i. How about the inhabitants ? A. Well, we think if it was deposited in deep 
 water it woulil be the veiy best practical disposition that could bt; made of it. 
 
 Q. Y<ni think if put in deep water it would be less injurious than at present? — A. 
 Well, of course a good deal of it is put in now in deep water. 
 
 Q. And you think if the (Government would consent to your putting it in the chan- 
 nel of the river the canners woukl be willing to put it there?- -A. If it was just 
 consideretl the channel of the i'i\er, of course, or put in deep water where there is 
 a current 1 think that Mould enable people that is the canners - to extend shoots 
 right from thcii' canneries. 
 
 Q. The channel of the ri\er is pretty well laid out for steam-boat navigation is it 
 not? .\. Well, yes ; but T would not meet their view of putting it in the channel — 
 and that would be a long way from the canneries. We think it would be covei'ed if we 
 j)Ut it ill deep water where there is a cui'rent. 
 
 (.^. I5ut six feet of water would not be either channel or deep water, oi' a strong cur. 
 ret? — A. No : ])robably not at all- points. 
 
 /li/ Mr. Ai'iiistrdiKj : 
 
 Q. Do you mean to jiut it in six feet of water, as near the canneries as you can get 
 that six feet of water .' .V. Well, yes : most of the canneries, or as majiy as I think of 
 now, siiootsciudd be rigued where they could put it in with that depth of water, or ten 
 feet. 
 
 JJ// Mr. W;i,Hot : 
 
 (J. l)Ut are not some canneries i)uilt where there are twenty feet of water ? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 (,|. Antl some six feet of ^ater ? A. Well, T don"t know if any ha\e so little as 
 that, most have twelve feet of water. 
 
 Q. AN'hat is the ])resent system of dumping offal aw ay now I — A. A\'ell, it is l)y hav- 
 ing shoots from the cleaning tables, the offal didjis into those shoots and it goes into the 
 watei', these shoots are on an incline descending into the channel of the river. I don't 
 say the canners would comply witli my views. We might speak of a channel, but when 
 we .say the channel foi' a ship, they would of course select the deepest water, but very 
 few canneries would comply with that. 
 
 (.^. Then the putting in of offal, as described by you, would be somewhat similar to 
 that you are doing at present.' A. At many places possibly there maybe some can- 
 neries that (.(Uild not comply with what 1 hav(> suggested. 
 
 Q. They could not coniplv with }iutting it ii» a channel of six, eight, or ten feet — 
 A. No. 
 
 (.,). Have you any knowledge with i-egard to the existence of an oil factory consum- 
 ing a jiortion of the offal ? - A. I know there is one. 
 
 (.,). Do you know anything of its oj)erations — successful or otherwise 1 — A. 1 would 
 not undertake to exjiress an opinion, because othtM's will be a)»le t(j speak on that point 
 from the book, as it may be. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 101 
 
 Q. Hut, ilo you tliiuk it jmssihle for ciiimcrs to (.'ouxcy tlicir olfal to souu' t'.'U'tory 
 tliiit nii;i,'lit 1)0 constructed for the nuiuufiicture of tliis oil .' — A. I do not, exce|)t at great 
 loss. 
 
 Q. How do you know unless it is tried ?~A. Well, it has been tried on the Coluni- 
 i)ia Hi\er wliei-e tish fire nnu'h nioi'e rich in oil thfin here, and I think if thei'e wei'c many 
 oil factories established on the ri\('i' tiiern would be a great many moi'e complaints t.'ian 
 against the canneries at present. 
 
 i}. V\*>\i) what cause .' — A. They are more oHensi\e -from smell, iVc. 
 
 ^i. Ai'<( they more ortensive from iiollution (»f tlit; water, iV:c. f -A. I never visited 
 this factory. 
 
 \i. Ts it not a fact that all animal and vegetable matters are extracted fi'om the 
 oll'al and made into marketabh; goods, oils, iVrc, and that what is left would be small, 
 light, iVc, in body, aiul not having those component parts that make them unlu'althy to 
 water ;nul mak(! it unsuitable foi* man .' A. 1 never \isited this oil factory, but F ha\f3 
 often smelt it at half a mile when going uj) river. 
 
 Q. Then you think it injurious to put oflal elsewhere than the canneries «lo at pre- 
 sent, and that if put in the centre of the riv(U' it would be equally unjirotital)le to can- 
 n(!rs ? — A. If we had to take soundings and places in the deepest part of the channel, I 
 don't think it would l)e. 
 
 Q. Oh. but the channel is not in ont3 little line, on the contiary, it would co\cr 
 many hundred feet, I am not wrong, am I '?— A. Yes : the channel would be quite large, 
 but I think that otl'al anywhere put in six or eight feet of water in a flowing stream 
 wiadd not be offensive from a sanitary view. 
 
 ii. But if put in the channel would not the current carry it away to sea'.' — A. Yes ; 
 but if put anywhere where a current, it would do as well. 
 
 ii. lUit would it not be much more slow in going out than if put in the channel? 
 A. Yes ; in the lower river, some places. 
 
 (.}. And if it took so many hours to gt.) dfiwn in mid channel, where the current is 
 strong, it would take just so many more hours in shallow water than in a deeper chan- 
 nel and do more injury and pollution in a long passage, would not that be reasonable ? 
 A. Well, r don't know as it would be delayed more. 
 
 Q. It would be a kaiger time in beci^nnng decomposed? — A. Y''es. Tt would be a 
 longer time in becoming decomposed .' — Rutin all canneries down below, it would not be 
 a matter of hours in taking oflal down. 
 
 Q. Where is your cannery .' — A. At Ladner's Landing, but it might be contended 
 that the proper chainiel for me to deposit offal would be Woodward Slough, a mile from 
 my cannery. Of course I could ])ut my oll'al in the steam-lx)at channel opposite the 
 Landing, but 1 would not like the department to say that 1 should put it in the chan- 
 nel at Woodward Slough. (Air. Wadhanis here proceeded to sIkav the situation of his 
 cannery upon a niap and explained where in his o{)inion '^he current would carry offal 
 from his cannery). 
 
 Mr. W.\niiAMS.- -Right at my cannery I could put it into ten or twelve feet at low 
 water. 
 
 .Mr. WiLMOT. — How wide is the I'iver at your cannery ?— A. About a ndle. Tt 
 would cost \ery much if T had to handle it out to the deep channel. 
 
 Q. Then you think there should be no great change from what you do at present ? 
 ■A. Well as long as it is put in the current. 
 
 Q. And from that are we to draw the inference that some canneries ai'e throwing 
 it in where thei'e is no current? — A. Well, there may l)e some canneries where there is 
 no more water than that, not swift water. 
 
 Q. And the conclusion is that you think offal should be allowed to be thrown in? 
 — A. I think that any cannery that deposits its offal in deep water, where there is a 
 current, it is making as good a disposition of it as practicable. 
 
 Q. You are aware that a statutory eiuictmenl says offal shall be kept out of the 
 water ?---A. Well, of course, but! think it is for the department to think that the 
 Fraser River is a large stream and that it takes very nuich otVal to have any effect. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of how it acts on the Columbia River .'--A. The Cokunbia River 
 is a much ' 
 
 lOc— 11 
 
162 
 
 MARINE AND KISIIERCES. 
 
 (.}. And F su|ijMi)sf y<»ii aiv awiiro tlit'v forliid it tlicrc? A. Oli yes ; and that is all, 
 well, I think tliat j,'(»os to sliow tlicy dim't consider salmon otlal (Iclrtci-ious. I don't 
 lliinU it liiis liccn contt-ndcd or (.-laiiiicd tlial dtliil ot salmon is di'Ictci'ioiis, alllioii^di jit-r- 
 sons liei'f coiisidcr it is. f don't think salmon olVal is deleterious, now, I have Itoen on 
 tlie Coliuiiltia I! ixcr myself some years and I ne\er heard it claimed that salmon oH'al 
 was deleterious to salmon. 
 
 (}. I don t think that is contented, i)ut it does efl'ect them to a certain dej,'ree, hecause 
 when salmon conn- in to j;o to the hrei'dini; places they will <;o a<;ainst every possilile 
 ohstacle ' A. Well, of course 1 don't want to draw any unnatural inference. 
 
 (). Well, 1 merely mention it to siiow that in Orci^on and \\'ashiiii,'ton they pass a 
 law that no deleterious suhstances shouhl ;;o in / A. Wtdl, I cainxjt concede the i')oint 
 that salmon otl'al is deletei'ious. Now, the (juestioii of licenses, formerly caiiners had 
 10 licenses each. 
 
 (}. I'lefore the rej,'ulatioii .' (limitation).' A. N'o : under the I'ct^ulation. Now, 
 they ha\e heiMi recUiced from lime to time until la.st year it was liU. We don't considei- 
 that is enout^h for our indu.-try. The canners have asked that they shall ha\e lio ami 
 that that amount he a fixed numher, so as not to l»e reduced on other years. 
 
 Q. Well, we will lead up to the (piestion whether JO lioats are not sutHcient for 
 vou ? A. 1 think not. 
 
 (}. .\r(\vou sure I'O hoats would not suit your purpose? A. Well, 1 know that 
 ordinaiily it would not liej,dn to suit me last year, as I .said, I packed in the neiyh- 
 Ijourhood of 1l',000 cases and I had ■")() hoats that is cannery l)oats and outsiders. Of 
 ci-)urse that is not packin-j; up to near one s ca])acity. 
 
 t(|. NN'Iiat numher of l)<iats do you consider sutticient t(» carry on a Icifitimati^ trade 
 and jiack 15,000 cases ! A. Well, the run varies so in ditl'erent seasons that it is liaid 
 to say. 
 
 <V- They have not varied much in last three seasons -have they? — A. Well, the 
 last T don't tliiidv was half what it was. 
 
 smal 
 
 /)>/ Jfr. A riiix/raiiff : 
 
 1 think you asked him how many hoats would he necessary — could you answer that 
 (|iicstion.' — A. Well, we consider that 25 Ixiats, at least, are necessary — I think that 
 oidinaiily one .season with another that woidd not hej^in to till 1 5,000 cases. Of course, 
 some individual Hshormen make large catches much larger than any tishei-mcn I have 
 ever had. Of course fishermen in caiuierv boats -we usually do it with Indians and 
 they don't catch as many fish ordinarily as men who fish their own boats -jiow, formerly 
 I had 40 boats and I fished litem. That was before the limitation was put on and at 
 that time 1 would employ 1 ()0, principally Fndians. Of course, 1 think that it is desirable 
 to look after the Indians sonu'what and although they form habits of industry, sa\'e, 
 their money pretty well, itc. : 1 think they are just as worthy of encouragement 
 perhaps, not as much as another — but they are woi'thy of all encouragement, and I think 
 we canners having control of licenses throw a good deal of work to Indians which 
 otherwise they would not get and when they very often would be a tax uj»on the 
 ])rovince (W (loverimient, and if they work they are more apt to maintain good habits 
 than if they are indolent. 
 
 if 1 
 
 /ii/ Jfr. U'l/niof : 
 
 Yes: y(ai would encourage Indian labour altogether? — A. Largely at least, yes : 
 but 25 boats would not give canners all the fish they want many contend it W(ad(l, but 
 they are mistaken, l)(>cause last year 1 had 50 boats and did not get near enough. 
 
 i}. How many fish make a case, S, 10 or 11, or what ^^A. Well, it varies fi'om a 
 litth' less than 10 to as high as l.'i. 
 
 if. Would 10 cover the average? -A. I don't think it would — I think it nearer 1 I. 
 
 i^. What is the average size of salmon? — A. Well, T never weighed many salmon. 
 
 (.}. l)Ut vou have handled them for many years? — A. Well, about six and a half or 
 seven pouiuls, I shiadd think. 
 
naiTrsH Columbia nsiiEay cummission. 
 
 lf?3 
 
 Q. JJiit it isfjfMKMiilly cMiisidcifd tluit t!i<,'lit ixnuuls is the uvt'ia^'c, is it imt .'- A. Wi'll, 
 I tliiiik it iiii over' I'stiiiiiitf a iiiaii i;«ics tisliiiiLf, you iviiow, ami lie tells IiIl; talcs. We 
 UiKiw till' luiiiilifi' of tisli we catcli in a scasim and the iiuiniu'i' o( cans \vc niaUc 
 
 (}. Well, iii'dinarily spcakin;,', liow many cans will you <,'et from a salmon four or 
 live? ()!■ wliat numlicr, usually speaking' j,'ivi' us I'oii^'li tii,'uifs .' A. Tt vvcadd not l)c 
 in excess of four sometimes it mi^lit be mort^ hut not nnicli on tiiese "oil'' years, as 
 lliev arc termed, wlicn we luuc fewer tisli, tliey will averajre a little larj^cr in size, 
 
 Q. And then they will a\craifc ahiait, five cans ,' A. ^'es ; al)out, that, and a^ain in 
 i^ood years the lish will he smaller tishcrmen and canncrs like to sec lish eomiiii,' in 
 small. 
 
 (^. Well then, with Ji j,'ood run y<ui can count upon ci;i;ht ]»ouii(ls to the tish and you 
 ^et five cans .' A. Well, 1 don't know whether they wei;(h ciyht pounds or not. We 
 w(add j;et about live cans to eight pounds in packing wc always give a little more. 
 
 (}. Mow mut'h more to the can .' A. Well, we put in a fraction of an ounce o\ei' 
 the pound. 
 
 i). Would it run two ounces? A. Oh no: perhaps an mnice even less it is 
 hard to .say we give good weight. 
 
 />!/ Mr. A I'nistriiiiii : 
 
 (}. You don't weigh tliom do you ? A. Well, T do myself. 
 
 (}. Do you t A. Yes : wo test it pretty thoroughly. I may .say the canncsrs think 
 in all fairness they should receive 2') licen.ses and cannot conceive any rea.son why they 
 shnuld not have them. The canneries, of cour'se they aic tiie [iriiicipal utilizei's of the 
 lish -th(!V are the cla.s.s, which if it was not for the canneries the outsider lishermen 
 would have but little sale for their tish, and outside lishermen, of course, personally, 
 their only wav of getting their lish utilized is by snle to thiMn. 
 
 Q. Then if you gave an ounce on every can you w(»uld \n' giving away 1<)0,U00 
 pounds of li.shT - A. Well, wc want to give full weight and a little more. 
 
 (^>. Well, T thiid\ you should advertise that it would be a good ad\ei'tisement - 
 would it not ! Tliat you give away 1()U,000 pounds of lish .' Well, you think if an eight 
 pound lish it would give you live cans -the balance ? this would be otl'al— would it not '. - 
 A. Yes, it would be. I would not want to estimate all this diULM'enc*', i^rc. 
 
 <^. Yes : but you say yourself the average of tish would be.se\cn or eight pounds .' - 
 A. ]My idea is the average would be from six to eight ])oun(ls. 
 
 (}. Well then, tht; average would be .seven? — A. As I say, my average is l.'Uish to 
 the cas(> and some veais a little h'ss than 10 on short years the lish will average larger' 
 than on i)ig years -1 ha\e mjt weighed the.se Hsh. 
 
 C^. Xo : but if you take the eight pound tish for argument and you make five cans, 
 there would be three pounds left, would there Pitit ? —A. Certaiidy : 1 would think so. 
 
 Q. What would 1)0 the average catch of your boats in a sea.son some lishermen 
 have .said they catch four or tivt^ thousand, and even as high as 10,000 .'-A. Well, my 
 Hshermon don't do as well as that 
 
 Q. As OjOOO you ;nean, or 4,000 '. -A. T don't think they averaged ."{.OOO : ofcour.se, 
 if T wore home, 1 could gi\e you e.xact figures. 
 
 Q. Oh yes, but T was simply asking ; fishermen have come here and stated they 
 catch these big figures 4 to 10 thousand -and a\('rage at '5,000 would be small with 
 all these big figures. A. Well, take even a big year ; an average of :.'00 tish to the 
 shift where you (Muploy day labour is a big average, 
 
 Q. Well, supiios(^ there ai'o .'^0 boats lishing and they catch ."5,000 salmon each 
 during the season, that would be !)0,000 salmon and that would give you 18,000 cases, 
 would it not ? --A. Well, you have the figures ; i don't know. 
 
 Q. Well, simply multiply -■5,000 by ."50, and we must take some standard, a G pound 
 lish or S pound lish, call it S pounds, now with 10 tish to a case, that would be oh, I 
 see I am mistaken, T have made a mistake in your favour yes ; that would be about 
 !>,000 cases not 18,000— yes, 9,000 oases. -A. Well, I d(jn't'ever go int.» such figures. 
 Last year 1 had r)0 boats and packed nearly lL',0t)0 cases ; there is n(j use going into 
 any calculations. 
 
 10^;— lU 
 
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 IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
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 :^ li£ 12.0 
 
 lit 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1.25 II U III 1.6 
 
 
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 6" 
 
 ► 
 
 <^ 
 
 'W 
 
 
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 «»' 
 
 Photographic 
 
 Sciences 
 
 Corporation 
 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEB3:ER,N.Y. 14580 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
 ■aw ^?J 
 
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 164 
 
 MARINE AND FI8HERIKS. 
 
 
 Q. Tlmt you tliink a fair average ? — A. It was my pack ; my neighbours may liave 
 beaten that. 
 
 Q. And you had 20 boats, and you had to get the bahince to make up tish for your 
 cannery 1 — Well, I was one of the managers f<»r the sytulicate and I used for my special 
 cannery 50 Iniats last year — that is cannery l»oats and outsiders. 
 
 Mr. ARMSTRON'fi. Did you put uj) all tish that you could catch ? Yes. 
 
 ^h: Armstron*;. — Do you think that every person who has a boat and net, being a 
 fisherman, who applies for a license should get it ? A. Well yes, of course, I think so, 
 because T think it very hard for .a man who has his own boat and net if he could not 
 get it ; of course with limitation there comes the difticulty. 
 
 Q. Well, but suppose there is no limitation, should canners get less licenses ? — No. 
 1 don't think the cannt;rs should be i-educed— T think if canners have 25 boats they 
 would want 25 outsiders -even in a big year they would want them most of th ; time 
 because in these big years they d<»n't run so as one could n(jt take care of all tlie tish he 
 wants ; of course thei-emay be one or two days when he would have to limit the boats. 
 
 t^. Hi>w many fishermen are there on the liver ; do you know'/ that is white men ! 
 — A. No. I don't know ^[r. McNab could tell you that ; there are a good many. 
 
 Q. Do you know if there are numy Indians that would tish if they had licenses ? — 
 A. There are some ; T had some Indians fishing for me w!io had their own nets and 
 licenses. Now, it has been stated that Indians were in the power of the cannerymen 
 that cannerymen took out licenses foi* them and then they had to fish for those cannery- 
 men. Now, T think the parties are mistaken in one .sense of course any Indian that 
 gets a license will recjuire a.ssistance, .something to be advanced to them in way or 
 of money, itc. If we consider an Indian is honest and will pay back in tish, why we credit 
 him just the .same as any other ; but any Indian that has hiul his own license I have 
 treated as an outsider and given the .same prices as I would white men. 
 
 Q. With all Indians who have boats and nets and all white men ti.shing, would 
 there not be sufficient ti.sh caught to .supply the canneries ? A. Well, I don't think 
 canneries would want to be supplied by them at the prices they would want. 
 
 Q. Don't you think competition would be so great they would be glad to sell 
 them ? — A. Well, it is a risk I would not care to take. I don't think that the Indians 
 — many of them would take out licences ; most of them W(»uld rather work by day's 
 labour and know what they were going to get ; they are the people mostly supplied to 
 the canneis ; most of our labour are Indians ; of cour.se we employ S(jme white men. 
 
 Q. Then you never made any calculation of the number of tish that came into your 
 canneiy in a session ? A. No. I could tell if I had my books 1 imagine it took about 
 12 to a case last year, but then that is only a surmise ; I have made those figures in 
 previous years. 
 
 Q. Well, you think you could not do with less than 25 boats ? A. No. I don't 
 think we could do business properly. 
 
 Q. What effect on ordinary fishermen would this have ; would it restrict them ? - 
 A. No. T don't think so, as I .say every cannery would want 25 more boats, if we could 
 get them. 
 
 Q. There are 22 canneries on this river ? -A. I don't know ; McNab can tell you ; 
 there wei-e several new canneries oj)erated last year, T think, with the limitation on, of 
 course, it is very difficult to satisfy outsiders anyway, because two men equally deserving 
 apply and one cannot get it. 
 
 By Mr. Wihiiot : 
 
 Q. Then do you think every British subject and fisherman should get a licence ? — 
 A. Yes ; only very strong reasons should prevent it. 
 
 Q. Then you think that licenses to each and canneric- getting 25, would be satis- 
 factory ? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What wf>uld you do with freezers, salters, &c. ? A. I would give them all the 
 fish they could use ; of coui'se I would not want to say anything that would deprive 
 any one of a license, but during the run freezers get more fish than th^y can u.se and 
 they sell them to the canneries ; that is. a question for the department, T don't want 
 to suy anything about it. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 165 
 
 Q. Well, but you should tell us what you think ? — A. Well, when canners tirst got 
 only '20 boats and fi'eezers got 10 — vhat is h:ilt' the number the canneis got- whereas 
 the canners get along with ten lish to ♦he freezers' one, it certainly was not satisfactory 
 to canners while it might be to fieezers. 
 
 <^. Then you think the number of licenses to freezers and othei-s is a matter for the 
 (lepai'tment, while canners should get 2'), and every British subject and fisherman 
 should get one ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to say about persons getting licenses and selling them ? 
 Should not men who get licenses use them the canners do doti't they ? A. The canners 
 do Of course we consider that, as I said befoi- -, that when canners were i-estricted to 20 
 boats and handed the fish from twice that, it was a hardship tluit another should 
 receive ten boats and not use the fish from more than two oi* three, l)ut, of course with 
 limitation otl" it would not make so much difi'erence. 
 
 Q. Then you dispute that new licenses should be given to canneis ? — A. N(>, but 
 the canners don't like to have their own number of licenses reduced to bring all within 
 that established number. Our view is if 20 more canneries are erected, you should 
 extend the limit of the licenses. 
 
 Q. Then that means that you are willing that there should be as many canneries on 
 the river as capitalists like to put up, but they shoukl be established at a ma.\imum 
 number of boats ? — A. Yes, I don't think that we have anything to say as to what the 
 (lepartme it's course should be towards the new canneries ; we only object that our 
 licenses should be taken from us to provide for them. 
 
 CJ. Would it be wise for the department to discriminate as between the number (»f 
 licenses given to an old earner and a new one ?— A. T don't think so ; they should be 
 put on the same footing. Now I am in business and I consider that my interest should 
 be consi<lered, but if I was not in business and wanted to engage in it, I think I would 
 have the right to a many as others, but I would not want to take from his licenses to 
 get mine. 
 
 Q. Well, as regards the fee for these cannei'ies, should they V)e alike on one river as 
 on another ? — A. W'^ell, we have the benefit of a hatchery and that would be one reason 
 for us paying greater fees than those on a river that has no hatchery. I don't think the 
 (|uestion of fees troubles the canners. 
 
 Q. But on the Hkeena it is $o and here $20 ; if the Skeena fee was raised to 820 
 would that be unjust ? — A. Well, I think you should start a hatchery there before you 
 raise the fee. 
 
 Q. Then you think starting a hatchery there would put you on an equality ? — A. 
 Well, that would be a reason for raising the fee. 
 
 Q. But do you think license fees should be the same all over the province ? — A. 
 jNIy views on that matter — and I believe I would be in the minority — is that having 
 advantage of the hatchery and which I Ijelieve will be very much to advantage of 
 canners and fishermen — I think it a go(xl reason why we should have to pay more than 
 on the Skeena. 
 
 Q. Then you think it .ufiicient reason for paying $1"), more than on the Skeena 
 for evei-y license ? — A. I don't think it excessive. 
 
 Q. Do you belong to the Syndicate ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you any canneries on the Skeena 1 — A. Two. 
 
 Q. How many here ? — A. Nine. 
 
 Q. And if the fee is changed on the Skeena two of these canneries would effect 
 you ? — A. Yes ; but that would not matter. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. AruistroiKj : 
 
 Q. H ow many boats do you employ at the canneries on the Skeena? — A. We 
 employ more up there. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wihiiot : 
 
 Q. How would it stand as individuals then 1 — A. Oh well, I think they should pay 
 equally as much as canners, for they are equally benefited by the hatchery. I think it 
 would be very unfair to charge a canner more than a fisherman. 
 
166 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Yes : but on the Skeena they pay .^o, and on the Fraser .*?20 : as a matter of 
 justice between thest different parties do you think a fisherman gets the value of that 
 $1') difference from the hatchery?- A. T do— it will take but few tish at fair prices to 
 soon make up that difference. 
 
 Q. Skeena River canneries pack is fully as high as on the Fraser River, T see 
 (perusing R. C. Roard of Trade Report). Yes, the average of those on the Fraser River is 
 13,400 ca.ses, and on the Skeena 13,000 cases, so they are alKjut the same, you see? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. The Skeena River packers — how many licenses do they get ? — A. Well, 1 
 cannot say that from my own knowledge ; but you can get that from Mr. McNab. 
 
 Q. And it would take as nmch labour and exertion to get a sufficient number of 
 fish t<» put up 12,000 cases there, or more? — A. They would average about the same. 
 
 • Q. How do they fish there? — A. Altogether with drift nets in deep water, no 
 seining. Rut I don't know as my evidence should be taken on that for really 1 don't 
 know I would not state that is the only method of fishing on the Skeena. 
 
 y. Have you any knowledge of the working of seines ? — A. Oh yes. 
 
 C^. Which is the most injurious, .seine fishing or drift-nets f- A. I don't think it 
 would be wise to introduce seine fishing in the rivers. 
 
 Q. How then as to the mouths of rivers — would it mean some young and fish of all 
 kinds would be taken ? — A. Very nearly — I think seines would interfere with the v.ork 
 of drift-nets. 
 
 Q. And their capacity of catching — would they catch greater number than drift- 
 net ? — A. Well, if it was well situated probably it would — ordinarily, of course, .seines 
 catch a great many small fish that escape the drift-nets. 
 
 Q. Is it judicious to use seines with 3.^-inch mesh when drift-nets are in use with 
 5^? — A. Of course, with .seines they want to use mesh .small enough so fish will not 
 gill, because if they gill it is difficult to take them from the seine, but it will catch a 
 great many fish that should not be caught. 
 
 y. Do you know the effect of seining ? — A. No: I never had much experience — of 
 course T have lijid catches, large and small. 
 
 Q. When a seine is being hauled, is it not a fact that fish run towards shore and 
 not against the net? — A. Well, I don't know that- I would, however, expect that. 
 
 Q. And the consequence would be they would not run the chance of being gilled ? 
 — A. Yes, I su]>pose so. 
 
 Q. At present seining is forbidden, I merely bring it up ti> see what you think of 
 it — a seine has the effect of sweeping along the botttmi as well as the top and therefore 
 everything must be taken ?- A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is there anything else, Mr. Wadhams ? — A. No. I thought you would like to 
 discuss the matter One party in giving evidence stated that he had caugh fish in 
 August, referring to sockeye that had spawned. Tt was just a (juery : of course T never 
 thought that would be. 
 
 Q. T don't think it likely that fish caught in August would be spawned. In fishing 
 your own boats you have relays ? — A. Yes ; we fish with four men. 
 
 Q. And ordinary fishing — two men ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would not cannerymen have the advantage o\er outside men ? — A. Well yes : 
 but oui' experience is that outside fishermen generally get more fish than oui' men. 
 
 C^. Are the men you use in your boats as good as white men ? — A. Well, take .some 
 Indians they are pretty hard to beat. 
 
 Q. W^ell, take them all through ? — A. Of course a good white man is better than 
 the Indians will average, but as I say, take a good Indian and he is a pretty good man. 
 
 Q. Oh, I know, but is the average fisherman a better man than the Indian ? — A. 
 Well, Indians are more apt to knock off when they consider they have done a good day's 
 work. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. ArniKtrony : 
 
 Q. How far out do your boats go to fish as a rule ? — A. Well, tiiey go out as far 
 as the sand banks sometimes, which is pretty near the lighthouse — not all of theni 
 you know. 
 
 as 
 kn 
 
 of 
 slid 
 
 ehi 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 1«7 
 
 Q. Don't they gu beyond the lighthouse? — A. Possibly, they may — they go as far 
 as the saiuls extend. 
 
 Q. Perhaps you don't know exactly h<t\v far the tishennen do go ? — A. No, T don't 
 know exactly. 
 
 Q. Don't you think it detrimental to fish coming in the river to place large numbers 
 of nets at the mouth of the river ? - A. No, T don't you might obstruct them foi- a 
 short period, but when they strike the i-iver, you cannot keep them out long. 
 
 Q. You don't think they would V»e headed off and go away ? A. No. 1 think they 
 would seek these rivers — T don't think they would go away. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Are there not improvements going on outside the mouth — will that affect the 
 channel? A. It will make it narrower. 
 
 Q. Is it by driving piles? A. Yes, laying mattresses, i^irc. 
 
 Q. How will they affect your fishing? — A. Well, it will make it more difficult to 
 tish there. 
 
 Q. Would it be possible to carry on your fishing within the limits of the channel ? 
 — A. Well, I would hardly expect to get a fish within that channel. 
 
 Q. And you would have to fish outside? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And then the fish would have a better chance to get up into the main river ? — 
 A. Yes ; I suppose so. 
 
 Q. Is that work in progi-ess now? — A. Yes; I think so. I think boats are at work 
 at present. 
 
 Q. Well, I hope, Mr. AV'adhams, in a joking sort of way, sir, that you have not 
 lost anything in giving your remarks in the first place, I considered that the precedent 
 would be a bad one, and that others would perhaps say they would not give their 
 evidence, but would go to Victoria. — A. I meant no discourtesy. 
 
 Q. Oh no. Ml'. Wadhams, we (juite appreciate that. Well, is there anything 
 further you would like to state? — A. No ; I think not at present 
 
 Mr. Aum.stkong: Thank you, Mr. Wadhams, thank you for your information. 
 
 led 
 
 JOHNNY MORGAN (coloured), o^ New Westminster, a native of British Colum- 
 bia, and a fisherman. 
 
 % 3Ir. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, what is your grievance, or what do you want ? — A. Well, I want to speak 
 of ways of fish along the river at Harrison. 
 
 Q. Well, what do you want to say about that?— A. After they come up there — 
 about a month after — the Indians catch them and dry them for their own use. 
 
 Q. Uo you mean on the main river? — A. No ; on the Harrison River ; that is 
 before they spawn — about two weeks — that is about November. 
 
 Q. Do they not spawn earlier than November? — A. Some of them do. After they 
 find out they are going to spawn they don't catch them any more. The flesh gets white 
 after a certain time, and they are poor. 
 
 Q. That is before and after, and at the spawning time ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long before the real spawning time do you see them getting wh' •? — A. 
 Well, about two or three weeks — about the beginning of November — some before and 
 some after. More get up before. The soekeye get up first, then spring .salmon. 
 
 Q. Spring salmon go there to spawn too? — A. Yes, sir; then the cohoes go — in 
 fact all the fish, the cohoes, spring salmon and soekeye — they go up Morris Creek to the 
 lake, except the spring salmon. They go up Siwash Creek and right along up to the 
 lake. They don't go into Morris Lake at all. 
 
 Q. Have you fished up there ? — A. T have both fished and speared The principal 
 way they have of catching salmon foi- their own use is by spearing. 
 
 Q. Have you ever got licenses to fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
168 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 'it 
 
 Q. They give you pennissioii to Hsh with a net ? — Yes ; down liere. 
 
 i-i. Then you cannot couiplaiii l>ecause you don't get a license? A. Well, I don't 
 
 know. 
 
 y. You did get a license? A. Yes; in my own name and paid my own money 
 for it. 
 
 Q. Did you catch many tish? — Yes; sometimes some years, and sometimes not as 
 many as other yeai"s. 
 
 Q. What average, alK)ut / — A. I caught 3,000 last year -that was my bad year — 
 the yeai' before about the same. 
 
 Q. Then you generally averaged about 3,000 salmon ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. A nnsfroii;/ : 
 
 Q. What did you get for them? — A. L»ist year 20 cents, the year before 10. 
 
 Q. Have you been on streams or rivers where spring sul mom spawn? — A. They 
 spawn at Harrison right along the river. 
 
 (i. Have you seen them spawning between the town of Harrison and along the 
 river up to Harrison Lake -that is the spring salmon ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And spring salmon don't go into Harrisson Lake they go into Siwash River 
 and Lake ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And how far is it from the mouth of the Siwash River to 8iwash Lake ? — ^A. 
 About 8 or 10 miles. 
 
 Q. And all along that river is it a spawning ground — rapid water? — A. Yes ; rapid 
 and witli gravelly bottom. 
 
 Q. What probable depth ? — A. Well, about a foot and in other places a foot and a 
 half. 
 
 Q. And the fish that enter Morris Creek are principally all sockeyes?— A. Yes; 
 sockeyes, steel-heads, cohoes, and dog salnK)n. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, your informatitm is useful in this way that some of the canners want 
 spring salmon bred here and the information you are giving would lead to the belief 
 
 that spring salmon go up Siwash Ci'eek and could 
 
 he caught there- 
 
 -what time was 
 
 that? — A. Yes, in November. 
 
 Q. Have you caught many of them there? — A. Quite a few. 
 
 Q. Red or white ? — A. They are mi.xed i-ed and white, but after a time there they 
 all get white. 
 
 Q. Is that the case with Sockeye too ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilmof. : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, I might state that the officers here have been seeking a place to get 
 spring salmon to Ijreed from, and this information you have given leads to what they 
 require ? — A. Yes, sir ; there is another Creek — Silver Creek — I think it is — it empties 
 into Harrisson Lake — that they go up. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of Stave River ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think of throwing offal into the river — good or bad for fish or 
 people ? — A. It might be bad for people, but T don't know if it is for fish. 
 
 Q. Are many people fishing on the Siwash River ? — A. Nothing but Indians. 
 
 Q. And they catch them by speai'ing, you say ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But not when spawning? — A. Not just at spawning time, because the meat is 
 not very good and for a while it is very poor. When the sockeye comes in numbers 
 they die — many die before they spawn and many after. 
 
 Q. Do spring salmon die to<i ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. As numerously as sockeye ? — A. Yes, sir. I think very few fish get back again. 
 
 By Mr. Armstromj : 
 
 Q. Do you reside up Harrison River? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen fish die when they got a short distance this side of the bridge? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have seen many of them. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HERY COMMISSION. 
 
 169 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Can you give us any reason wliy they die? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where are the Hot Water Springs '(— A. About three miles above. 
 
 Q. And the outlet of the spring is right at Harrison Ijike. Does it change the 
 colour of the water in Harrison Lake? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The tish dying are in Harrison River ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you see them die in Siwash River?-— A. No, sir; I have not seen them. 
 
 Q. The inference is the hot watei* has an effect — do you know anything ctf Niconien 
 Slough ? — A. It is a part of the Fraser — it comes down just a little below Harrisim. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the Pitt or Co<iuitlam Rivers. — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything further yoj would like to say 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.^ — I am very glatl you have given us the information you have ; we 
 have not had any one before giving us information as to these rivers, ami it may be 
 useful hereafter. 
 
 Mr. Akmsthon*;. — Thank you for your information. 
 
 The Connnissioners adjourned at 4 p.m., to nieetai;ain at 10 a.m., on 2Gth Februaiy. 
 
 New Wkstmix.stek, B.C., -'Oth February, 18!)2. 
 
 Sewnth Day\ Session. 
 
 The Commissioners re-assembled at the Court-house, and was called to order at 
 10.20 a.m. 
 
 Present. — S. Wilmot, Esq., piesiding ; SherifF W. J. Armstrong ; Mr. C. F. 
 Winter, secretary. 
 
 WILLI A.M ARTHLTR, of Delta, or Ladner's Landing, a native of England, a 
 farmer, and resident of British Columbia for thirty-three year.s, was duly sworn. 
 
 Jly Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. If you have any statement to make appertaining to the fisheries of the Fraser 
 River, we will be pleased to hear it ? — A. I wish to speak on the offal business. I don't 
 kuow anything of the regulations about canneiymen or fishermen proper, but I wish to 
 speak particularly on the ofFal business. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that offal is forbidden by law to be thrown in the river ? — A. I 
 have heard so, but I know it is always thrown into the river. My farm is just two 
 miles from the Delta cannery, on a slough running in from Point Rolierts. This slough 
 is not navigable, except for very .small lK)ats, at high tides the water is bank high, but 
 when it goes out it leaves the .soil perfectly dry. It is ten feet wide at my place down 
 to sixty feet at the cannery. The Delta cannery and Mr. Wadhauis' cannery ai-e not 
 on the main Fraser,, but they are on a slough ; a .sand bar I'uns down the river about 
 two miles ; steam-ljoats going to Ladners Landing have to back down a mile to get 
 back. 
 
 Q. What is the name of the slough 1 — A. Cohiluthan Slough. 
 
 Q. How far is it from — which cannery? — A. Tlie Delta ; it is right on the corner 
 of the slough. 
 
 Q. How many more canneries are there between that slough and Canoe Pass ? — A. 
 .Mr. Wadhams' cannery — before a steamer can get back into deep water she has to 
 back about half a mile — now the offal is all thrown from the lx»ttom of the cannery and 
 the tide cofJies up this slough and takes it clean up to where I live. The offal is all 
 thrown fron> a hole in the floor to the water. 
 
 Q. About how deep is the water ? — A. Well, it is often dry ; I have seen the offal 
 from a foot to eighteen inches deep until the titie comes. When the tide runs up it 
 goes with a pretty big current and takes everything up to where I live, but when it 
 
no 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 rccctlos ii Ifuvos cvt'ivtliiii); in tli" gi-nss. It iiKivf.s cvrrvtliiiij,' ri),'lit up to tli«' h«'ii«l of 
 tlu' sldiijfli. uimI tlu-ii it Slavs tlit'ic, not only jmrt inns i it' oUal, l)Ut lots in front of my 
 door. I inviti'd so;:>(' (•imncrs to j;o and src it. lint tlicy would not yo. Sinrt' tlu'sc 
 (•ann»'ri('s have Imumi tln'i't* w»' have had much typhoid tVver ; ri^ht alon^ this slouch Wf 
 have lad seventeen cases of tVvcr this last summer; four cases in my own house 
 .done : three I had to send to the hospital, and it cost me !?»»00 to j;«it them out. .Vnd 
 .Mr. i'alhoun his farm is opposite mine he had two of his sons and ihree of his hired 
 men down with typhoid fever, and so .Mr. (.'alhoun had five oases iii his house. .\ 
 <|uartei' of a mile Im'Iow my nephew live.s, and he had three cases, and there were two 
 others further down neaicr the rivei', and they had two cases also that I know of. I 
 think if the olFal were taken out in the de«'j» water where the current wouhi take it oil", 
 it would he less lialile to cause sicknes.s, hut I am fully convinced that this typhoid 
 fever has heen the result of otFal heinj; thrown in, hecause there has been no sickne.ss 
 either side of us .ill sunnner. 
 
 Q. What do you mean hy "either side?" A. A mile on each side of us. There is 
 no current t > tak** otlal from either of those canneries — the tide comes rij,dit up. I refer 
 to the " Delta ' ami Mr. Wadham's canneries. 
 
 Q. ho these two canneries t-arry <>n 'i larfi;e liusiness ? A. Yes, sn*. 
 
 Q. To what extent have you any idea ? \. T don't know ; 1 have heard that the 
 " l>elta " put up two years ayo L'O.tHH) cases. 
 
 Q. You have reference to 1S!)()/ A. Yes; I have heard in ISDO, 20,000 .sonie- 
 thiny like that. 
 
 Q. Have you any cause, or knowledge of your own, oi- coifld you f,'ive us any infor- 
 mation as to the number of cases put up that year? A. No, sir ; I could not I only 
 speak from hearsay. 
 
 Q. The hearsay is 20,000 ? .V. Yes ; I think those two canneries are situated 
 worse than any tithers on the river, hecause there is no prominent point where the cur- 
 rent strikes to take it ofl'. I think the ottal should he taken from those canneries 
 especially. 
 
 i.}. What alxuit Canoe Pass? A. Well, there is quiteal)itof sickness along Canoe 
 Pass as W'.-ll. 
 
 Q. What canneries are there .' A. Wt>ll, I don't know, \ think there are three, 
 the IMucnix is one— I don't know all the names. 
 
 (,>. .\ re there cases of typhoid fever on Canoe Pass? A. There has been; it is a 
 larger body of water than our slough. Caiioe Pass is a very lai'ge stream. 
 
 (.^). How wide might it be/ A. A quarter of a mile, I think. 
 
 Q. The eti'ects of ort'al there would not be felt as much as in your Slough ? A. Not 
 as much : there are little pockets in the sides of the Pass little wash-outs, itc, and oftal 
 works in these, and people who were piling hay had t«i go and remove it. 
 
 (.). Ami they removed it.' For what reason? A. The stemn v.as so bad they 
 could not work. 
 
 (J. is there an oil factory near there / — A. No; the oil factory is <m an island in 
 the river further up. 
 
 Q. Do you know the name of the island on which it is? A. 1 don't know. 
 
 Q. Crusoe Island ! 
 
 Mi{. L-MiXKii (interrupting) : Yes ; you may call it that. 
 
 Mh. Wii.MOT (to witness) : You have resided for some time down there ?- A. T 
 have owned land for 1*> years and have had my family residing theie for the last seven 
 years. 
 
 Q. Have you l)een selling land there? A. No; T have not sold any, but T will 
 have to sell very .soon if there is continued sickness. 
 
 Q. Has it affected your hind ? A. Yes ; T think it has depi-eciated the value of 
 land, in my estimation S'20 an acre, on account of the fever sickness being along that 
 slough. 1 might say there was going to be a public meeting to-morrow at ♦wo o'clock 
 for jieople to gi\e evidence to send before this Conmiission. 
 
 (.,1. What municipality ? A. I)elta. 
 
 y. On the offal question alone? — A. Yes : on the offal que.stion alone. 
 
BRITISH COMTMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 171 
 
 i.i. Alt' tlit'it' iiiaiiy iiiluil)itaiits in that imiiiic'i|tality .' A. Yes; tlicy arc (jiiitc 
 miincroiis tht'ic now I suppose tlit'iv air a couph; of luiiulred p»M»[il»! in altuut a radius of 
 tlin'f iniN's tlit-rc. 
 
 (.}. All faniuMs? A. Principally. 
 
 Q. Wliat is tli< pimhu't ot't'ai'iiiiiiK operations there, c'Picals itc. ? A. Yes; cereals, 
 hay, fruit and ^t'lieial farming;. 
 
 i}. Well, the island formed hetween tlu; slouch and Canoe Pass? A. Well, it is an 
 unknown island ; it is a sand bar formed for about two mih's lon{,'~at hifjh tide vessels 
 iiii^'ht ^'o over it. The (tffal is carried int(» that slou;^'h and there is no current to take 
 it out. 
 
 (}. Are you of opinion that means could Ix; adopted for consuini;,' this offal by mak 
 iiig it into oil or adoptiny it for aj^ricultural purposes fertilizer? A. Well, 1 have 
 used some of the material from this factory as a fertilizer and I think it very ^ood. 
 
 i-i. What sort of constituents has it^ — the refu.se ?- -A. Something like a lirown 
 snuff', (juito tine, like jxtwder I used alK)ut oOO pounds of it last summer. 
 
 <V. And i|uite dry I A. Ye.s, (piitt; dry. 
 
 Q. If thrown into water does it float away or does it sink ? — A. Well, T never 
 threw it in, I throw it on the land I think if thrown in mi<(ht float away there is 
 no smell attached to it much. 
 
 Q. Have you been at the oil factory ? -A. Yes, I have been through it. 
 
 Q. Is there much offensive smell coming from that factory ? -A. At the time of 
 working there is. 
 
 Q. Have they done much work there have they manufactured much ? A. No ; 
 not a great deal I have heard it did not pay for itself, but the offal could be taken 
 from these canneries in scows with fal.se l)ottoms like sand from di-edging. 
 
 (,^. Have you heard the rea.son why it did not pay '! A. No ; I think it has l>een 
 carried on, on an experimental scale the Delta Cannery has taken .some offal to this 
 factoi'v last summer, but I don't know if canners had any shares in it, itc. 
 
 Q. Do you think it wouhl be any difficulty for canners to take offal to the.se facto- 
 ries if established ? — A. No ; it is a mere matter of towing the scows there. 
 
 (.^. Could offal be easily caught from the canneries ? rA. Ye.s, T think .so - it would 
 f)e merely a matter of dropping it down from a shoot into a hop[)er. 
 
 Q. \Vhat effect ujion fish has it? A. Well, 1 don't know what effect it would have 
 upon fish. 
 
 Q. Do sh ever come up the slough you si)eak of ? A. I don't think any salmon 
 run up there iKtthing but small fish- -dog- ti.sh, suckers, itc. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of wliat transpire<l there 20 or 30 years ago ; during 
 the time you have been there did any salmtm come up? A. Fifteen years ago there 
 was no l)ar there and steamers could come in then. Formerly, T believe, the slough did 
 run straight through, but I don't think any fish went through. 
 
 Q. Well, then this maj) is misleading, because it shows the water ruiming straight 
 through into Georgia Straits. (Referring to nuip by albert J. Hill, in pamphlet form, 
 printed at the office o{ " The Columbian,'' New Westminstei-, 1SH9). A. Oh no ; no 
 water runs through- there is no opening and the offal backs up and conies tln-ough — T 
 have never been in the fish business and so cannot say much about them. 
 
 Q. Of the inhabitants that foiin this municipality- were there many ordinary fisher- 
 men or ai'(; they fishermen .".t present ? — A. No; most ai-e farmers- there might be l") 
 or 20 fishermen. 
 
 Q. Ts the soil good and protluctive ? A. Yes, very good. And the tendency would 
 lie that farmers would settle theie, but if there is as much sickness again as last summer, it 
 would deter people from going there, and T think it can be traced right to the offal. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of tins sort of difficulty prevalent anywhere else, except just at 
 Delta ? — A. On Canoe Pass, as I have told you. 
 
 Q. Anywhere else ? — A. No; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Are you sufficiently ac(|uainted with operations in a cannery to know what pro- 
 jiortion of fish become offal and are thrown in the river ?^ A. No, I am not -I would 
 suppose one-fifth or one-sixth goes into the river and very often there nnght be a scow 
 lf)ad that goes — any unfit for canning are thrown into the river. 
 
172 
 
 MARINE AND FIBIIERIE8. 
 
 Mr. Ladnkh (iii(erruptin)i). — IMr. Chairniaii, T will ask you to ask Mr. Artliur it' 
 lie knows tliat, aiitl nin state it in evidence? 
 Ml. An.MSTii(»N«;. Order, order. 
 Mr. Ahtiuh.— Well, I have known of tisli to he thrown over from a .scow. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. Wilinof: 
 
 y. And have you .seen this on more than one occasion? — A. Well, what T have 
 .seen myself and heard ; when there is a heavy pack it is don«' every .season. 
 
 Q. Does it occur every sea .son ? — A. No, 1 don't think it occurred this season ; 1 
 know that last season it was, l)ecuu.se I went to get some myself and the whole sci»w 
 load was bad. 
 
 Q. What number nii^ht be in a scow? — A. From one to two thousand H.sh in a 
 scow ; I should think that fully. 
 
 Q. And you .say that wlien these are bad and unfit for canning they are thrown 
 into the river? — A. Yes ; they ai-e. I am not a canner myself, but state from hearsay, 
 and what I have seen. 
 
 Q. And can you say you believe that if a large factory were started there this 
 offal can be u.sed in shape of a fertilizer and oil? A. Yes; I cannot say if it would 
 pay, but I know the fertilizer is good, and I have used the oil and it is good. T should 
 think about 2,000 gallons were used at the Ltinding last summer ; Mr. McNeely told me 
 al)out 2,000 gallons were sold. 
 
 Mr. Ladneu (interrupting). —I would ask Mr. Wilmot to ask Mr. Arthui" if he 
 knows that for a fact himself ? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. -No interruptions please ; when you were here you were heard 
 attentively, Mr. Ladner. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot (continuing) : 
 
 Q. 8o you think about 2,000 gallons of oil were purcha.sed at Delta : what value 
 per gallon ? — A. I think it is 50 cents. 
 
 Q. What use do they put the oil to ? — A. Well, farmers use it for every shape in 
 which they us'> oil. 
 
 Q. Is it good for lubricating machinery ? — A. Yes ; and for oiling hurnes.s, and in 
 fact everything owned on the farm. 
 
 Q. It takes the place of the kind of oil they formerly used ? — A. Well, I have 
 never heard of anything else but fish oil used there. 
 
 Q. Well, but it takes the place of what was formerly used and bought elsewhere 1 
 — A. Of course. 
 
 Q. You have been in the habit of buyii.g oil other than this for lubricating, «kc. ? 
 —A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And at what price ? — A. Just the same price as offal oil from the factory. 
 
 Q. It stands then on the same footing, as it were ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Where is the nearest agricultural or farming operations carried on to you fron) 
 Delta ; is it all around that section of the country ? — A. More or less all over ; it is all 
 taken up ; not an acre but what is owned ; of course it is not thickly populated as yet, 
 but quite so around the river front. 
 
 Q. Is this oil much used ? — A. Well, T don't think they use anything else, for a 
 farmer goes and buys dog-fish oil. 
 
 Q. Is this oil used anywhere else ; do you find lumbermen using it on .skids, (tc. ? 
 — A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. You know oil is used for that purpose ? — A. Yes ; I know. 
 
 Q. And do you think this offal oil would be useful for this purpose? — A. Yes ; T 
 think .so. 
 
 Q. You must know, Mr. Arthur, the object of asking these questions is that in the 
 event of the offal being made into oil, we want to know if it is possible for it to l)e used 
 for these purposes ? — A. Well, I think it preferable to dog-fish oil, because it is not 
 so offensive to the smell. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HKRY COMMISSION. 
 
 173 
 
 Q. You don't know anything iilMiut tlu; tisliinjL; WuHinoHs, and don't euro to inuko 
 any roniiirks ; you liave no suggestions to make ? Wliat is your idea as to the t-lostt season 
 at present it takes in from Saturday mornin;; at six o'eloek until Sunday afternoon 
 ill six o'clock ? — A. Oh, well, \ tliiiik that is very j,'o(mI. I am not interested, l»ut I 
 think it would give time for Ksh to run up from Saturday morning to six o'clock Sunday 
 evening 
 
 Q. Now, from a moral standpoint, is it preferable to have any operations on Sun- 
 day used for tishing purposes? A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Then you think it justitiahle, not only to fish, but to iidiabitants t^onung here, that 
 the whole of Suiuiay should be kept? — A. I do. 
 
 Q. Now, a great many settlers cimiplain that tliey cannot get licenses ; do you 
 think every man, a British subject, should get a license to tish if he wants it ? -A. \ 
 do ; I think that every man who is a fisherman should get it, but it should not be 
 transferable, and F think one licen.se enough for one man. 
 
 Q. From tlui point of causing imnngration to the country, do you think it would 
 advance the population here if every man got a license '! — A. T think it would ; I think 
 it' cannerymen get all the licenses they want, vtM-y few other persons would get the 
 chance of fishing. 
 
 Q. You don't say canners should not get any licenses? — A. Oh, no : I don't say 
 that, but if canners get a great nund)er of licenses, why fishermen cannot sell their fish, 
 
 Q. Have you known of people leaving the country because they could not get 
 licenses to fish? — A. They have told me so, that they were going away because they 
 could not get a chance of a license oi' sell Hsh. 
 
 C^. Are you now satisfied in your own mind that offal ccjuld be converted into oil 
 and fertilizers by the application <»f the necessary means fi-om the canneries? — ^A. I do, 
 and I don't think, even if it could not be u.sed in the factory, I don't think it would be 
 of but very little expense to take it out into salt water, because there is never a day 
 l»ut the canneries from Delta, take a steanier to the mouth of the i-iver, they take 
 the scows down. 
 
 Q. And you think it would be conducive to the benefit of the cannery, if they did 
 this? — A. Yes ; to the health of the cannery. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstromj. 
 
 Q. Are there any ce.sspools and other stagnant recesses iu?ar your hou.se to make a 
 smell there, other than what comes from the slough ? — A. No, sir ; there is nothing to 
 account for the sickness other than theoflfal ; beyond a mile from the slough there was no 
 sickness ; around the slough there were 16 cases and three or four deaths. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot. 
 
 Q. Where do you get your water, along the slough ? — A. We have to catch rain 
 water, my cattle have to drink the water from the slough. 
 
 Q. Well, if the cattle drink this, was there anything bad in the milk ? -A. Well, 
 iucanneryman told me that — that the sickness came from the milk, but whether this is 
 from the cattle drinking the water or not, we could not get water anywhere else, except 
 away back in the woods — the cattle cannot get anything else. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Are there not a number of persons down there who use water out of the slough ? 
 — A. Yes ; they have to — they take it from the slough and filter it if the tanks run 
 out. When we first went there to live we drank water from the slough. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. AlKJut 16 years ago? — A. Yes. 
 Q. Were there any canneries there then ?- 
 located there first. 
 
 -A. No, there were no canneries when I 
 
174 
 
 C^. And you (Iraiik tlm water from tliis slouch ? 
 we arc afraid to doit. 
 
 Mh. Wii.not. Thank you — that will do Mi-. Artliur. 
 
 MARINE AND FI8HBRIB8. 
 
 \. V«'s, l»ut wt' don't do it now 
 
 Vj. a. JKNNS, of New Westiiii lister, a barrister, and resident of Ih'itish CoUnnhia 
 for 1 1 years, was chdy swctrn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, if you have any statement, Mr. .lenns, we ar«' prepared to receive it? — 
 A. T would pn'fer if you would a-k me the questions in older. 
 
 ii. Well, in regard to the < d'al (|uestio!i f A. Well, some seven or eight years ago 
 when younger, I used to go tislnngand shooting on the river, and T have seen the shoots 
 at the canneries leading into the water continuously day after day, and I have seen the 
 small fish anmnd them in great numbers. No part (»f the intestines ever reach more 
 than the water before being consumed i)y the thousands of small lish, an<l the larger parts, 
 the heads and tails, are eaten up by sturgeon and the larger iish. I don't belie\e that 
 the injury from oti'al is one half as much as from dead tish floating down stream. 
 
 A. It simply serves to feed the 
 
 A. 
 
 Jii/.]fr. Wihiiot: 
 
 Q. What eO'ect has ott'al on Hsh and fish life 
 lower class of fish. 
 
 Q. Any effect upon the entrance of the commercial cla.sK of fish pa.ssing up?- 
 1 .should think not ; F could not say whether or not, but I believe not. 
 
 Q. What effect has it, do you think, froi.' a sanitary standpoint ? — A. Well, the 
 only place I have ever heard of it is from around the Delta, where lots are found, l)Ut 
 even there, 1 ilon't think the smell would be as bad as above here, 
 
 Q. Then you think it has an effect ? — A. It might have down there, but not 
 here. 
 
 Q. What is the effect of water and air being pure, is it not better from .sanitary 
 effects than if not ? — A. Well, yes, I certainly grant you that, but you have not proved 
 yet that the water or air is niade impure by offal. 
 
 Q. Then you think it has no effect -^pon water or air by throwing in large quantities 
 of offal 1 — A. I think it has very little Tect, because I think it is consumed at once. 
 
 Q. You think it is consumed as it falls from the canneries ?— -A. I have seen the 
 water apparently to the eye rise three inches as the small tish rushed up. 
 
 C^. Or would it be from rising on top of the offal underneath it '! (laughter) A. 
 No : it would be from the fish lising up to get the offal. 
 
 Q. Have you seen fish in shoal watei- with their backs out of the water / — A. Well, 
 I have seen tish in the upper waters of the Fraser liiver in places where the water was 
 shallow, fighting their way up — they laid back to back — the smaller fish don't con\e up 
 that way — they go with a rush. 
 
 y. Then you think offal is not injurious to man or beast ? — A. No ; not if deposited 
 in deep running water — on shore it may, 
 
 Q. Then if it lodges along the sh)ughs 1 — A. Well, I don't think it would be as bad 
 as from death of fish. I know of one farmer in Chilliwhack who totik away oO loads of 
 dead fish. 
 
 Q. But Chilliwhak is not down here?— A. A\'ell, but it is just the same as here — 
 Chilliwhack is only 40 miles away — I have seen dead fish in great numbers 500 miles 
 from here. 
 
 C^. But if you or your family were living along these sloughs would it not be offen- 
 sive? — A. Well, not at the canneries I am speaking of when there were canneries in 
 the town here — Mr. Ewen had one, and I think there was another in town then, too. 
 
 Q. Then you would not mind living alongside a cannery ? — A. No ; I would not, 
 except for the Chinamen. 
 
 Q. Then Chinamen are worse than the offal are they ? — A. Yes. I think so, a good 
 deal. (Laughter.) 
 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 175 
 
 ii. And you say tli«' otfiil j,'ot'H duwii troiii ii slioot into tlu; whUt and tin- little tisli 
 iiiist' thcnisclvt's out iif tiie watf'i' t(» j<et it? A. Y«'s. f have seen it tinif and tiiii** 
 a^'aiii. 
 
 (^. Ho you know wliat tish thi'sc arc? A. Tlicy call tlu'ni sufkers. 
 
 ii. Do you know that .sin-kers are a vonu-ious tish ?- A. TIh'V are a jifrcfnly tisli I 
 know. 
 
 Q. Do you think they eat the heads and tails? A. No, I don't ; hut they uftt the 
 intestines- the heads and tails are eaten by the sturgeon. 
 
 (2- I5ut these larj;e ijuantities that are sent alonj; the sloujfhs is that what lias 
 <'sca|»ed l)ein^ eaten by the large lish ?--A. it' it is so, I snpjM)se so. 
 
 (•i. You spoke of larj;«^ nundieis of salmon coming down from the u|t|M'i' waters 
 (lead have yo\i ever seen them here ? A. No, hut I have seen them in thousands liet- 
 weeii Hoston Uar and Yale T have seen a few here, liut they don't ajtpeai' on the sur- 
 face as above. 
 
 Q. The place you speak of is several miles from here? A. The place I speak of ir 
 over a liundred miles from heie 1 have seen a few tloatirt' nere and have seen them 
 along tlie .shore here and there deposited. 
 
 i}. From what source were they deposited? A. Well, T have simply imagined that 
 they were washed up by the tide. 
 
 t^. \V(»uld you think they were from th> > mneries? — A. No, I don't think .so I 
 didn't think tiiere were any canneries above her •. 
 
 Q. Were canneries not above here what al)Out the " Hon Actrord " and Mr. Laid- 
 law's cannery?— A. Oh well, if you tell ni" there are canneries above here, of course, F 
 sup|»ose there is. 
 
 Q. Ts it not po.ssible that this otfal which creates in the estimation of the public 
 liLii so much offensiveness -could it not bemad, into oil or .something ? -A. Well, F 
 don't know anything about that it is a sjh lulation 1 would not care to go into it 
 my.self, it nnght not pay, thougl. F don't know. 
 
 Q. You .say offal from tish is not injurious to tish or to inhabitants? — A. That is 
 my opinion. 
 
 ii. How about saw-du.st ? A. F know nothing about that. 
 
 Q. About the li?nitation of licenses ? -A. No. F don't know I know the canneries 
 must have fi.sli to work with on ^Fonday the present close .sea.son .seems to nie to have 
 been found the J<est of any. 
 
 Q. Y'^ou are a legal man you say — if a man has linsiness you think you should 
 work on Sunday for him ? A. Y'^es. I would work on Sunday t»r any other day. 
 
 Q. And you have no fear of that which appertains to the cliristian world 1 — 
 A. Well, T would not like to .say that either. 
 
 Q. Do you know of anything about aititicial fish-breeding ? — A. F believe it is 
 l)eneficial. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the distribution of licenses ? — A. Well, that again 
 F can only speak of from a business point of view what niuuber I cannot say, but 
 F think every Firitish subject should have a license. Fiut from my experience T can speak 
 f>f only some canneries — the canneries make arrangements in the sprii\g to put up .so 
 many cases fifteen, twenty, or thirty tliou.sand cases as it may be — tlien they make a 
 contract with intelligent fishermen to supply them with fish — if they get few tish 
 their own boats are fully employed — if they get too many tish then tFieir boats are first 
 withdrawn -that is working with an established number of licenses- -for if they execute 
 a contract with outside fishermen, of course if they did not adhere to it, would be a matter 
 of so much damages. 
 
 Q. And with an establisht 1 nund)er of 25 or 40 licen.ses they make these calcu- 
 lations — if they got one-half the number of licenses they would make one-half the 
 arrangements? — A. Well, no, it would dep-^nd upon their capital and other things. 
 
 Q. And you think tliere should be an established number and every fishermen 
 should get a license? -A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And do you think there shouUi be bartering and selling of licenses ? — A. 1 
 simply think that the man who takes a license or licenses should use them for himself 
 it is n»jt a matter of speculation. 
 
176 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 il-v 
 
 Q. What are your views in regard to the license fee lieing the same for all canuers 
 in the province ? - A. That \ am not prepared to say. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, F tliinkthat is all the list of questions — if you haveanything further? — 
 A. T have one or two thinijs T would like to suggest — T heard one witness speaking about 
 the diHerent runs of fish in the river, i cannot speak from persc»nal knowledge, but the 
 man who knew UL.<st about tisli in the river was Mr. Charles Hughes —he is dead now, 
 unfortunately I give this simply as information. He was a man who knew about what 
 he was talking and he told me when the Whites first came out here the stories they got 
 from Indians were to the effect that there were five runs of fish in the river, and they 
 didn't believe them. Then a man was sent out from England and stayed here a year — - 
 a Naturali-st - and after studying the thing out they found there were really five different 
 classes of fish in the river then a man named Lord wrote a book about the salmon in 
 British C'jluml)ia and telling of the different kinds. Another thing is, T don't think from 
 what T personally observed, or fiom what T have heard, that any sockeye ever return to 
 the sea after they enter the river. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of that fact ? Yes ; T have been travelling up and 
 down the river since ' '^TS. 
 
 Q. How do you think that the species would be kept up if all die ? -A. W^ell, that 
 T cannot say - there is one proof outside of what I have heaid and that is this — salmon 
 can be caught going up river, but 1 never heard of fish being caught going down. 
 
 Q. But fish are no use then ? -A. But the experiments ha^e been made — just like 
 the experiments to catch them with a fiy. 
 
 Q. Do you know the cause of that sir, why they cannot be caught ? They never 
 take the fiy in the breeding season in any country in the world -they only take the fiy 
 when they first come in and in clear water?- A. Well, I knov. salmon will take either 
 the spoon or fiy in the salt water at the mouth of the river, and that salmon will take 
 the fiy and spoon in England. 
 
 Q. They ilo in some of the lakes and streams ? — A. Then the effect trout have 
 upon the salmon — they are not merchantable here but they are in Victoria. T have 
 seen the salmon spawning and the trout following up and eating the roe almost as soon 
 as it is deposited. 
 
 Q. Yes ; that is a provision of nature — all fish live upon one another —eithei- directly 
 or indirectly. Large fish consume the smaller ones, but evidently they leave enough eggs 
 to furnish these canners with enough fish to carry on their operations. — A. There is just 
 one other remark — I don't know if it is of much interest five years ago T was up to 
 Coquitlam Liike, and T have seen salmon in great nundiers there dead upon the water 
 — some sockeye were, and I have seen them there dead after spawning. One of the 
 Indians who was with me took one of the dead salmon out of the wat-er and stripped it 
 to get some of the spawn to fish with foi- trout. 
 
 Q. Then the consumption oi watei- from this lake, would it not be hurt by the num- 
 bers of dead salmon ? I understand that you are to draw water from this lake for the 
 city — if large numbers of dead fish are there would it not be hurtful to the water ? — A. 
 Yes ; certainly it would. 
 
 Q. Then W(mld not tliis large amount of offal thrown into the river be hurtful? — 
 A. Well, T don't think so — it is all eaten up at once. I have drank water myself from 
 the river in winter and have been made almost sick from it. From what I have seen of 
 Coquitlam Lake, I don t think the water would be very nmch hurt. 
 
 Q. You would only draw good water then for the city. You would not draw the 
 bad water? (Laughter.) — A. Well, 1 don't know--! don't think it would be hurtful. 
 
 F. L. LORD, a native of the United States, residentin New Westminster — 15 years 
 in British Columbia — and a salmon packer, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilnwt : 
 
 You prefer giving your own statement to answering question? ? — A. Yes ; I would 
 prefer it for awhile anyway. Tt is my opinion that offal does no particular harm to fish 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 177 
 
 viT fish life — 1 cannot see where it does any. I wouhl not undevtaive to say it does nut 
 actually do Jiny, but I. don't know that it does any particular harm — there might be, 
 Iwit I don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Mliat further do you know tlien ? — A. Well, from my e-xperienee in tlie sahnon 
 business we have been practising dumping it down through shouts into the water -that 
 lias been the practice. 
 
 (.^ Have you been aware all this time that it was an illegal practice ? — A. Well, 
 there has been no law enfoi'ced to the contrary. 
 
 Q. The law is in force — it is only that youi' permission given to not observe it is 
 revoked. -A. I suppose so. 
 
 Q. And the law was not revoketl either this year or hist year, therefore it must 
 iiave been in force? — A. I am not an owner — my employers would In liable. 
 
 C^. What cannery would yoii be with ? — A. I have been with Mr. Wadham's 
 for a number of years past. 
 
 Q. What ((uantities of fish are brought in annually ?— A. Oh, v/ell, if a man packs 
 l.">,000 cases we calculate from eleven to twelve fish to a case, and that lo,UOO cases 
 would apply to some yeai's while, 8,000 cases would better apj)ly to some (it her years. 
 
 Q. What would be the weight of salmon of that kind ? — A. WeU, 1 could not say 
 what proportion we throw away. 
 
 CJ|. That is not the <{uestion I asked. — A. Well, about four oi' five pounfls after they 
 are cleaned. 
 
 Q. But I asked you what are the average weights of salmon brought in by the 
 fishermen ? — A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. What time were you engaged in salmon business ? — A. About sixteen years. 
 
 t^. And you don't know the average weight of the fish you handle ? A. Well, I don't 
 know -I never weighed them; if you want me to guess, why of course 
 
 (^). Oh, well, you guessed at these other matters, did you ? — A. No, I know that ; 
 oil, well, I would say the fish would be in the neighbourhood of S pt)unds. 
 
 Q. Do you get any fish weighing 8, 9 or 10 pounds? A. Well, piobably 10 jtuunds 
 would be too much. 
 
 Q. And what the average? — A. I would say from G to 7 jioi'nds. 
 
 Q. And you guessed at that, too? —A. T am guessing it, of course, liecause I never 
 weighed them. 
 
 ii. And if other canners make oath that it is 7 or 8 pounds would they be correct? 
 A. Well, I don,t know ; T don't like to be fastened down to a point ; I should say the 
 general average would be about 7 pounds. 
 
 (}. Canners and others say about 7 aiul 8 pounds?— A. Well, I suppose I should 
 say 7 or 8 pounds. 
 
 Q. And now there will be no guess work as to the number of fish that come in ? — 
 A. Oh, no, I know that. 
 
 Q. What numbei' of fish wtadd be brought in daily? -A. Well, it depends on the 
 season ; sometimes they will bring in two or three hundrtul, and perhaps next day you 
 will only get 20 or 30. 
 
 <^. Is there any time in the season when large numbers are taken ? — A. Oh, yes ; 
 it is \ery hard to say ; some men will go out and catch between seven and eight thou- 
 sand lish. 
 
 '). Home will catch 10,000, don't they ?- A. ^Vell, T have heard so, but! don't 
 know whether they do or not. 
 
 Q. Well, many of them catch 0,000? — A. Yes; I should thiidv many of them 
 would catch 5,000. 
 
 (i. And these fish are brought into the cannery ? A. Yes; they are all brought 
 to the camps first. They ai-e tlien bi'ought to the wharf and then cleaned and put 
 on ta)>les for cutting. 
 
 Q. What is the first jtrocess in cleaning? — A, Taking off the head, then taking off 
 the fins, and then splitting the belly and cleaning out the entrails. Then the tail is cut 
 oH and thrown out into the water. 
 
 Q. What is the next process then ?- A. After the salmon is washed thoroughly it 
 is cut into the right lengths by a machine with revolving knives, to suit the cans. 
 
 lOc— 12 
 
178 
 
 MARINE AND i'lSHEBIES. 
 
 I 
 
 I 
 
 Q. Well, then, they are cut in so many pieces, and these are the pieces that make 
 the cans, and each can takes one, and one fish will make how many cans of that size ? — 
 A. About four cans. 
 
 Q. An eiglit-p(jund salmon will make four cans ? — A. Oh, T won't say the eight- 
 pound salmon. 
 
 Q. Well, we started with an eight-pound .salmon ; we will say four cans ? — A. 
 Then they are thrown in the brine tank, and then thrown out and drained, and then 
 they go on the filling tables, and then they are put in cans. 
 
 Q. A pound in each ? — A. Yes ; they do get a pound in each. The next process is, 
 all dirt is thoioughly \yashed off the can, &c., and then they pass on to the soldering 
 machine and then they are cooked. After steaming they are washed in the lye kettle, 
 thoroughly wi-...hed off in a clean kettle and piled away. 
 
 Q. And they are then ready to be packed for market after being labelled 1 -A. 
 Well, they are piled up in a pile — before this they are tested, and leaks fixed up, &c. 
 
 By Mr. Armstroruj : 
 
 Q. After they are steamed, do you not put holes in every can ? — A. Yes ; they are 
 punched with a hole, and after the steam comes out they are then closed up, 
 Q. And does any liquor come ofi'.' — A. Yes ; a little liquor goes, too. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How many hands are employed in a cannery ? — A. Well, in the neighbourhood 
 of 100, all told —that is, in a cannery with a capacity of 15,000 cases, because 
 there are t»nly a few days when all can be working fully. 
 
 Q. Of those 100 hands, how many are foren)en generally ? - A. I have been a fore- 
 man — there would be a foreman of the Chinamen he would be a Chinaman. 
 
 Q. Yes ; but how many white men in specified positions ?- -A. Well, then there is 
 the forenian of the cooking ; then there are firemen, and several other Jissistants. 
 
 Q. The firemen wftuld be white men, and all the rest Chinamen ? — A. No ; there 
 would be a white inspecting the filling, and white men would be in charge of the retorts, 
 timing and keeping the propei' temperature ; then watchmen, itc, about eight white men. 
 
 Q. Would that be a fair average in other canneries ? — A. Yes ; there might be 
 days when they would bring in one or two others. 
 
 Q. And the rest ? A. Klootchmen and Chinamen — the greater number Chinamen. 
 The Indian women wash the fish, and pile the cans away, and such work as they can do. 
 
 Q. Are Chinamen paid by day work, or on contract? — A. Well, some canneries are 
 different. Some Chinamen contract t<i do the work at so much a case. Mr. Wadhams 
 engaged his men l)y days' pay. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much the boss Chinamen gets per ca.se ? — A. About oO to 70 
 cents a case. I don't know what it costs other cannerymen. 
 
 Q. A trifle over a cent a can ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Antl the Indian women, they are paid by the day ? A. In the case of a con- 
 tract they would be paid out of that 70 certs, or whatever it might be. 
 
 Q. Oh, then the whole of the work is done by the Chinaman boss? — A. Yes ; the 
 whole thing ; and f)f course these Chinamen pay the Klootchmen. 
 
 Q. And the only other white men would be the six or seven you mention? — A. 
 Yes ; that applies to some canneries. 
 
 Q. Well, it is the general thing, is it not ? - A. Well, I think a number of canneries 
 have been doing it by the day. 
 
 Q. Then the white labour employed in a cannery, turning out 15,000 cases, are 
 some six or eight white men ? — A. Yes ; but I may say it would not pay any white to 
 do the work the Chinamen do for the pay, or anything like what the canneries would 
 be willing to pay. 
 
 Q. And if any class would do it for 35 cents, you would take legitimate work away 
 from others for them ? — A. Yes ; we would all do that — we would get it us cheap as 
 possible. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION 
 
 179 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the Culumbia River ? — A. Yes ; I have been through 
 tliere, and I have never seen a white man employed there in this work— a white man 
 would starve to death. 
 
 Q. Then the canneries that are run by this work — the proportion of expenditure 
 would be about the same — contract and days' work ? — A. About the same, I think. 
 
 Q. What do you pay the Indian women? — A. 10 cents an hour. In Wadham's 
 cinnery they are paid 12^ cents — some less. Chinamen are paid S-'^O, $IV2 and .*!4o a 
 month. Some few Chinamen are paid as high as 645 a month, but very few, I think. 
 
 Q. Then on the whole, contract prices and day prices is about the same thing ? — A. 
 About the same thing. .Speaking of my own experience, I had to run around and get 
 all the white men I could. 
 
 Q. Do you try to get Chinamen tirst? — A. No, I don't ; but we could not afford to 
 take white men. 
 
 Q. Then a white man is better than a Chinaman ? — ^A. Oh, yes. Of course I would 
 [liefer a good white man to a good Chinaman any time. 
 
 Q. Can you give us any desci-iption further as to the mode in which these people 
 are paid — are they paid in money or in trade? — A. In money. 
 
 Q. Are thei-e attached to the canneries, shops or business places, where cannerynien 
 keep goods for sale to Chinamen and workmen? — A. Yes ; most of them have their own 
 sliops in connection with the establishments. 
 
 Q. And in which the workmen trade considei-ably for their wants, &c. ? — A. Yes : 
 l)ut T don't think they would get much except fooil and provisions. They have a few 
 little things, dry goods, ifec, but they don't amount to much. 
 
 Q. But there would be a considerable amount of goods consumed in the course of a 
 voar ? — A. Yes ; in j)laces where they were away from stores. 
 
 Q. And do they import these things — do they get them fi-om San P^-ancisco or else- 
 where ? — A. No ; I think they get them from V^ictoria, and in the towns hei-e. 
 
 Q. Do the workmen — Chinamen, Klootchies, »tc. - get all the Hsh they want gi-atis 
 for their own food? — A. Yes ; usually they do. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Artnntronif : 
 
 Q. Do they get all the white salmon and other tish not canned ? — A. Yes ; ] think 
 there is enough white salmon caught during the sockeye run to supply the Indians witii 
 food. T might, however, be going too far in this, but: 
 
 Q. And are all given to the Indians ?--A. Yes ; as far as I know. 
 
 Q. Are they in good condition ? — ^A. Yes ; invariably in good condition. 
 
 Q. You know of no instance wliere salmon became unfit for canning purposes ? —A. 
 Well, there are cases of sun-burnt salmon, which would be unfit for canning, and they 
 are thrown overboard. 
 
 Q. Are there any instances in your memory where a whole boat-load would be un- 
 fit-keeping over night too long, itc. ? -A. No ; I don't know of any such case— all boats 
 deliver Ash at the scows and none at the cannery. 1 don't mean that scows come in with 
 sun-burnt fish on that scow. I mean that fishermen will catch fish and throw them in 
 the boat, and when they are not properly covered over, they will get sun-burnt and 
 damaged. 
 
 Q. Are these fish easily discerned ? — A. Yes ; the Klootchmen get them and they 
 watch closely, because they get all these fish foi- themselves. 
 
 Q. But some are thrown overboaid? — A. Sometimes. 
 
 Q. And these occurrences must occur more or less in a large business? -A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. And these things cannot be avoided?- -A. Oh, well, yes; if you watch every 
 fisherman. 
 
 Q. And these white spring salmon that come in — are they kept separate? — A. 
 Yes ; they are kept separate. 
 
 Q. How many spring salmon does it take to a case ? — A. About four or five to a 
 case. On the Colcfbia River it takes a fraction over three. 
 10c— 12* 
 
180 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. They average larger there ? — A. Yes. 
 
 y. And sockeye do not frequent the Columbia River ? — A. No; I don't know of 
 any. T don't know of any sockeye below the Straits, excepting in around Point Robert.'*. 
 
 (•i. And when the .sockeye,s are coming in in the last of the .season, the huniii- 
 backs are running, too ? -A. Yes ; but they are not fit for canning. 
 
 Q. What is done with them ? — A. I think they are thrown overboard. 
 
 Q. And they cannot help catching them ?— A. Oh, no ; they cannot help catchini; 
 them. After the second .spring salmon run, we have the cohoe run. 
 
 C.^. And you pack them ? —A. No ; we do not pack them at all — they don't come in 
 sufficient cjuantities to pay. 
 
 Q. And their Hesh 1 — A. Oh, their flesh is all right, as far as I have noticed. 
 
 Q. And they would be in at what time ? -A. In the latter part of August. They 
 follow right after the sockeye run. Some canneries have canned spring salmon, Vnit only 
 for one .season. They didn't find it profitable. 
 
 ii- And there would be a greater number thrown away or given to the Indians, be- 
 cause they are useless ? — A. Ye.s. 
 
 Q. And cohoes — what is done with them ?- A. Well, they are very numerous, but 
 we do not fish for them unless the freezers and market-men handle them. Canners leave 
 them alone. 
 
 Q. Are cohoes increasing in numbers in the river to what they were? — A. Well, I 
 cannf»t say. 
 
 Q. What effect would it have upon the river if you caught sockeyes continuously, 
 and allowed the hutnpbacks and cohttes to come free — would they not preponderate ? — 
 A. It does not seem to have that effect ; but, as I say, I don't know the first thing about 
 sahnon b-eeding. 
 
 i}. Have you had some experience in modes of fishing <)tlier than the modes of fish- 
 ing called gill-netting and drifting ? Any of the mode of fishing by seines — have you 
 found that a .seine would be a more injurious net for catching fish ? -A. It might be in- 
 jurious in this way that it would catch ungrown salmon. I think gill-net fishing catches 
 lots of fish. I don't think they would do any better with a seine. The seine is gener- 
 ally thrown arounil a shoal of salmon, and it takes them all in. 
 
 Q. But a drift-net would not take them all in? — A. AVell, I suppo.se a seine would 
 take them all in a shoal, but a drift-net will take more in the rivei" than any seine will. 
 
 Q. But w()uld a seine not beniore likely to take more fish out of a shoal than a 
 drift-net? — ^A. Yes ; out of one shoal I think it would. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to say about the close season ? — A. No ; I think the way it 
 was last year is al)out right. 
 
 Q. Would it seriously affect canners if extended to 12 o'clock Sunday night ? — A. 
 Oh, yes ; they woukl never get a boat out at \'2 o'clock. 
 
 Q. The reason I ask you is that many persons think Sunday should not be broken, 
 but you think it should be left alone (i.<'., the pre.sent season left alone)? — A. Yes; 
 the season is very short, and I think it would not do to hamper us too much. 
 
 Q. Then, if the season was half as short you would take all Sunday ? — A. Well, 1 
 don't think it hurts to use Sunday, and then it lets fish get up the river. 
 
 Q. What do you think of artificial breeding? — A. Well, if you estimate that 
 catching lots of fish kills them out, and then we have good runs of fish, I would be 
 willing to give the hatchery the benefit of the doubt. 
 
 Q. Do you think any man a British sul)ject should have a license ? — A. I think 
 every man, a resident and Jiritish subject should get a license. 
 
 Q. Should it be transferable? — ^A. No ; I think a man who gets a license should 
 fish it. 
 
 Q. Do the cannery men have relays of men I — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And a boat running all the time ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And ordinary fishermen have one boat and net ? — .\. Yes. 
 
 C^. And would not that be in favour of the cannery boat with four men ? — A. AVell, 
 you would think so, but I know our experience is that with a good run of salmon they 
 will pile them up, but with a poor run they don't do much ; but if it was not for the 
 canneries the four men in a boat Mould go hungry. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 181 
 
 Q. Do you think the fees should lie the same on the Fraser, Skeena and Naas 1 — 
 A. Well, I don't know much about them. I think all should pay 820 alike ; I don't 
 see why they should not. 
 
 ]\Ir. WiLMOT. — Well, sir, we have <,'ot some very useful information frttm you. 
 
 Hij Mr. Anustrotiy : 
 
 Q. T might ask you — you say there is nearly enough white salmon caught to supply 
 the Indians who might be fishing? — A. Well, T don't want to be fastened down to that. 
 
 Q. Well, are these fish given to the Indians counted in among the number given 
 as caught in the year ? - A. Well, I don't think so ; we don't pay for- those fish to men 
 lishing for so much apiece, but with a man working by the day of course they would. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wiihiot : 
 
 Q. Nor cohoes, humpbacks, k^i. 1 — A. No. Di^l I understand Mr. Arthur to say 
 that he had seen scow loads of fish only fit to be thrown away I Because if he di«l, I 
 Clin say that it is not true. 
 
 ]NIr. WiLMOT. — No ; I don't think he said that. 
 
 Mr. AnMSTRONfi.---But you haVe no right to say that any mans evidence is not 
 true : you can say that you have ne^•er seen such a thing. 
 
 Mr. LoHi). — Well, I have never seen such a thing. I have seen fish thrown fi-om 
 the wharf, but not scow loads unfit for canning. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, sii-, if that is all, and you have nothing more to repre- 
 sent to us, that will do. 
 
 It being 12.30 p.m. the Chairman declared the Connnission adjourned, to meet 
 again in the same place at 1.30 p.m. 
 
 Nkw Westmixstkh, B.C., 2Gth February, 189:2. 
 Afternoon SessiiDi. 
 
 The Commission assembled in the Court House and was called to order by the 
 Chair at 2 o'clock, p.m. 
 
 Present : — S. Wilmot, Esfj., in the Chair; Mr. Sheriff Armstrong, and Mr. C. F. 
 Winter, Secretaiy. • 
 
 JOHN J. McDonald, a native of Nova Scotia, a resident of British Colimbia 
 tor over seven years, now living some eight miles above New Westminster and describing 
 himself as a practical fishei'man, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do you desire to make any remarks upon the fisheries of the Fraser Ki\ er or 
 elsewhere in this province? — -A. Well, I desire to infoim you that I have been refused 
 a license for the last three yeai's, I think. 
 
 Q. You regularly applied for it ? — A. I applied at the ofHce here. 
 
 Q. Was any reason given why you should not have it ? — A. Yes ; there was a little 
 reason why I should not have it -the first year I fished on the river with another man 
 who had a license — the second year I didn't take the trouble to come to town to get a 
 license of my own, not knowing there ever would be a limit. The manager of the 
 Bi-itish America Factory supplied me with a license. 
 
 Q. Was it written in your name ? — A. No ; not that I know of — my name was not 
 on the books the following year when I applied for license. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know if it was in your name or not?^ — A. i think not -T am 
 not j)repared to say. Three years I applied for a license and they told me I should not 
 have a license because I did not have a license the year before. 1 had to go to work in 
 a cannery. 
 
 'I 
 
182 
 
 MABINK AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. In the cannery or with a boat and net ? — A. No ; J went to work net niendin;,' 
 in connection with the cannery. 
 
 Q. Before goin<j any further were you not a fisherman in Nova Scotia ? — A. Yes. 
 sir ; I fished sahnon in No\a Scotia and Newfoundland. 
 
 Q. What induced you tj coma here? — A. Well, I came here thinking there would 
 be good chances of going into fishing or sailing on the coast. 
 
 Q. Well, you could not get any license and had to work in tlie canneries? — A. \es, 
 sir ; I had to work in canneries, or at least the fourth year as I might say. 
 
 Q. That was in '91 — last year ? -A. In the year before -I was refused a license 
 and had to go to Point Robeits. 
 
 Q. In the United States? — A. Yes; I went there and tried to get up a traj) — I 
 had no means to put out the kind of ti-ap suitable foi- the place, so I made a failure of it. 
 
 Q. Is it trap-nets they fish at Point Jioberts or pound-nets ? — A. "Pound-nets"! 
 think they should properly be called^ — p<iund-nets and seines. 
 
 Q. And you could not get on there ? — A. Yes ; for want of means I cou'd not get 
 on thei'O. 
 
 Q. What then ? — ^A. The following year again I could not get a license so I had to 
 go up into the upper country to work. 
 
 Q. Lumbering ? — A. No ; I went up building a telegraph line. Last year I did not 
 apply for license thinking I would not get any, so I was appointed guardian on the 
 river — I asked for the appointment and got it. 
 
 Q. Where wei'e you working at on the river ? — A. I was appointed for Cotjuitlam. 
 but the inspector put me down on the North Arm. 
 
 Q. And your guardianship extends how far — the whole of the North Arm ? — A. 
 The whole of the North Arm - fronj Westminstei- down to the Sand Heads. 
 
 Q. The Sand Heads ? How far out from Sea Islan 1 ? — A. About a mile and a- 
 half or two miles beyond Sea Island. 
 
 Q. Well, that distance from Westminster is how many miles? — A. I call it 18 
 miles — that was my limit. I was living here in town with my family and I went over 
 the route. 
 
 Q. Daily or nightly ? — A. 1 generally went down one day and came back next, or 
 as it happened I generally got towed back and forth by tugs and steam-boats. 
 
 Q. Do tugs come up the North Arm to Westminster ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (}. How many canneries are there on the North Arm ? — A. Two in operation. 
 
 Q. Where .situated ?— A. One on a small island between Sea Island and Lulu Island. 
 
 Q. Whose cannery is that? A. It is called the Sea Island cannery I think it is 
 also called " Munn & Co."' 
 
 I\|. Where is the other one situated? -A. On a small island between Sea Island 
 and the mainland. 
 
 Q. Near the North Arm road ? — A. Yes ; it is not far from the North Arm road 
 coming across from Vancouver. 
 
 Q. Whose is that? — A. I understand it belongs to Todd & Sons, or " Todd & Co.," 
 I am not sure which. 
 
 Q. AV^hat else do you wish to represent before we ask any questions particularly ? 
 — ^A. Well, I don't know as I have any grievance of my own particularly. 
 
 Q. As a guardian on the river, was the law carried out ? -A. Well, I have only 
 had occasion to take one boat and net. 
 
 Q. What for ? — A. Fishing two boats undei- the one license. 
 
 Q. Had both of the.n numbers on ? — A. Yes, they had. 
 
 Q. Then, they were improperly numbered ?~ A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is tliat the only case of that kind that occurred ? A. Yes, the only one I knew of. 
 
 Q. It is very possible there might be others ? -A. Well, I don't know -I watched 
 them pretty well. It might be possible there were cases I didn't know anything about. 
 
 Q. And the extent of territoiy you had to go over would almost forbid you seeing 
 everything going on / — A. Yes, It would forbid me from seeing unless I niade more 
 trips up the river. 
 
 Q. Now, as to the canneries — were there any violations of the law by them ? — A. 
 Nf» violations that I have .seen. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 183 
 
 Q. Do j'ou know that it is against the law to throw oti'al into the river 1 — A. I was 
 not informed of it. 
 
 Q. Was offal from these canneries thrown in? A. Well, they let it slide into the river. 
 
 Q. Are these canneries built upon the land or on piles out in the I'iver ,' A. Well, 
 they ai'e partly on piles and partly on tlie land — the gi-eater portion is on the land. * 
 
 Q. Where the offal slides down, is land underneath or water ? — A. Water. 
 
 Q. How deep may the water l»e there / — A. Well, T could not say —T never liap- 
 pened to sound it ; probably there would be S or 9 feet or there might be 18 or I'O feet. 
 
 Q. There might be G feet ? — A. 1 don't know as there is any of thejn that has as 
 low as 6 feet - it might be 10 feet oi" more. 
 
 Q. Is there much current or a rapid flow of water? — A. Yes ; a pretty rapid flow 1 
 
 Q. As strong there as out in the middle of the channel ? — A. Well, at Sea Island 
 Cannery I would say it was ; the tide sti'ikes towards the land tliere. 
 
 Q. How wide is the river at the North Arm? — A. It might be approximately one-, 
 third of a mile. 
 
 Q. And does the principal channel of the river run in the iniddlb? — A. I could not 
 say which side of that island is the principal channel. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed if offal put in there is carried away at once or eaten up by 
 little fish ? — A. Some possibly might be carried away and some remain and be eaten up. 
 The current is very sti-ong and might carry it away. 
 
 Q. Have you been in a cannery when the oflf'al is slid down? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed if the offal stayed there or was carried away ? — A. No, not 
 particularly. A few years ago they used to have cribs made to hold the offal. I think 
 that was very injurious to the fish. 
 
 Q. What fish 1 A. The salmon. 
 
 Q. In what way ? — A. Well, it was left there to rot. 
 
 Q. How are the.'-e cribs or bins constructed ? -A. Well, they are constructed by 
 having a large box-like place made of one by foui" lumber and with a vacancy of one to 
 two inches between the slats. 
 
 Q. What might be the size of the.se bins — 10 feet square? — A. Well, lam not 
 prepai-ed to say exactly. 
 
 Q. Would they be one foot square? A. Well, I suppose they would be about 10 
 feet square. 
 
 Q. What depth ? — A. Well, they were generally built along tlu^ bank ; they might 
 be 6 or 10 feet at the outside. They were made to suit the bank and bottom of the 
 river, and T think it was injurious to salmon, liecause it remained there and became 
 rotten. 
 
 Q. Then, why was it kept in these bins? -^ A. Because it was thought better, and 
 would not annoy the fish or the nets. 
 
 Q. Then, if it floated out in the river they thought it would attect the I'un of fish 
 there ? — A. Yes ; in some cases there might be some little parts of otial that the air 
 gets in, and it will blow up and float like a small nautilus on the water, and it prevents 
 the ilsh from coming. 
 
 Q. And cribs were put there to ]>revent this? -A. Y''es. 
 
 Q. Had both caiuieries you speak of these cribs?- A. No; at Sea Island Cannery 
 I ilon't think there was any ; at the other cannery they had made a shoot. I don't 
 know how they worked it, but it was so as to run, in case the law was enforced, to run 
 the offal into a canoe and have it carried away. 
 
 Q. Was it ever run into canoes and carried away ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then the canoes were not used and the offal went into the river?- A. It went 
 into the river. 
 
 y. Then, from what you know of the matter it was the impression of canners there 
 that its goinir into the river would aH'ect the fish and the nets? A. Well, 1 dont know 
 what tV>eir opinion is. It was my opinion. 
 
 Q. And what (b you think as regards health — any settlers there ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What occupation ? — A. Faiining. 
 
 Q. Were any complaints made to you as an officer that offal was injurious? — A. No,sir. 
 

 184 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 \m 
 
 ^1 
 
 (-i. NN'hat i)s your own opinion on the subject ? — A. Well, wlien offal is thrown in — 
 when the tide biiuks up the river, it may goon jilaces and rest there at hij,di water when 
 the tide falls, hut I think if let go when current and tide are running strong out, it 
 would not injure anything— it would go away. 
 
 • ii. Then the effect of bins underneath canneries w(juld be to prevent that ? — A. 
 Yes; in my opinion the bins were a very bad system. 
 
 Q. And this offal that floats back and gets on the land does it (b^cay there?— A. 
 Yes ; some will dry and decay and then float. 
 
 Q. What effect on the inhabitants has it — is it offensive ?- -A. Yes; it smells pretty 
 bad when it i-ests on those shoi-e places. 
 
 Q. You have never heard the opinion of settlers living there ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. If you li\ed there yourself what would you think ?— A. Well, I would think 
 that what was thrown out when the tide backs up would be a little offensive — it would 
 be only a small portion that would get on those shoals. I have drunk the water every 
 night a number of seasons now and never found it affect my own health. 
 
 Q. Do y(m ever put anything in the water you drink there ? -A. No sir (laughter). 
 
 Q. Could it (the offal) not be ctmveniently carried off in scows to a reasonable dis- 
 tance or out into deep water in the Straits of (Jeorgia? -A. If the law was enforced 
 they intended, T know, to cai-ry it away. 
 
 Q. But you received no instructions to enforce the law in regard to offal ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. But you were aw;;re i*^ was the law? — A. No ; not particularly. 
 
 Q. Are there many Indians fishing about 8ea Island ? -A. Yes; quite a nund)er. 
 
 Q. What are the fish pnncipally caught there ? — A. Sockeye are the principal 
 salmon caught there. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the usual catch in a day or season? — .\. Oh, I 
 don't go in there of a day— but as many as a boat would carry, say two, oi' four hun- 
 dred fish — I think some of them carry that. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea what the average catch of a lioat would ))e during a season 
 there? — A. \VeIl, I have never heard. 
 
 A. W^)uld it be 1,000, .'5,000 or 10,000?— A. Well, I have heard but I really for- 
 get, but I think some went over 4,000. 
 
 Q. Had you ever heard of any catching as many as 8,000 ? — A. No; I have not 
 heard, but I would say if they were allowed to fish all the time and canneries take the 
 fish from them they would catch that numbei- -some do catch 8,000. 
 
 Q. And you say if they could sell their fish — are the canneries filled up .sometimes 
 that they would not take fish? — -A. Yes ; I have heard they were — that is for a shoit 
 time. 
 
 Q. And the fish that are caught in that way and brought to the canneries and the 
 canneries cannot take them -what are done with them? A. They are generaHy salted 
 — the fishermen are only supposed to fetch in so many. 
 
 Q. Yes ; but if a man catches 400 salmon when he goes away ? — A. No ; but they 
 generally get away with the first catch and then they are generally limited to 400 for a 
 boat, that is those who are selling to the canneries, and then they (the cainiers) very 
 often keep in their own boats. 
 
 Q. And are all salted- — do you know of any thrown away? — A. Oh, not many — 
 a few. 
 
 Q. What do you call a few ? -A. In a poor time I would call a couple of thousand 
 a few. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. This is done ))y whites and Indians both ? — A. Well, there are few licenses on 
 that route given to Indians. I could not say how many. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to do with issuing licenses ? — A. No, sir ; I have nothing to 
 do but guaid the river. 
 
 Q. This excessive ijuantity of fish are generally of the sockeye family, are they ? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 for 
 
 Q. In June and July? — A. The latter part of June, July and August. 
 
 Q. And is the North Arm a good place for .spring salmon ? — A. No, it is not good 
 
 ^prlng 
 
 salm 
 
 on. 
 
C- 
 
 BRITI8H COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 185 
 
 Q. Are coliops cuu^ilit ? — A. Yes; (|uite a few. 
 
 Q. What is (lone with them? — A. They are packed soinetinies, l>ut I don't know 
 nf it, myself. 
 
 ii. The principal business is witli the sockeye ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What siz(! of mesh do you Hsh with there? A. Six-inch, extensi(jn measuie. 
 
 Q. And the length of the net/ — A. Oh, they have all lengths — the regulation 
 length is l.')0 fabhoms. 
 
 Q. How many meshes deep ? A. Thirty generally on the N(trth Ann — some may 
 liave forty meshes. 
 
 Q. The fish you have known to he thiown away — would they be from Indians and 
 othei's who have licenses, or from canneiy boats ? -A. From both. In sttme cases I 
 have known the cannerynieii to have bought the tisli and then could neither .salt them 
 or pack them, and have thrown them away ; but I never knew but of one ca.se to my 
 own knowledge. 
 
 i^. AVas this a pretty lai-ge quantity, then '! —A. Something like •2,000. 
 
 Q. Do Hsh come mixed red and white ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is done with those caught red an<l white you .say the canneries do not 
 woi'k them ? -A. The Indians generally take them and prepare them for their own use. 
 The Indians generally have liberty to take the white salmon and diy them for their 
 own use. 
 
 Q. What sea.son of the year would that be? — A. Oh, all parts of the year -there 
 lias been a few white salmon canned, but they are not considered marketable. 
 
 Q. Have you known any white .salmon tf) be thrown away because not marketable? 
 — A. I have thrown away a few myself, so I sup|)ose others would do .so. 
 
 Q. And the few you thi-ew away — what number would it amount to in a season? — 
 A. Forty or fifty during a season 1 would not have time to salt for my own use. 
 
 Q. But you would not thiow red ones away ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the difference in the quality of the Hesh — white and red ? — A. In the 
 early part of the .sea.son they are just as good. 
 
 Q. Neither is red later on in the season — ate they? — A. No, they are not; but 
 there is not so much ditfei-ence. There is greater difference between spring and fall in 
 white salmon than in red salmon. 
 
 Q. Have you heard complaints on the river of fisheinien being unable to get 
 licenses to fish? — A. Well, I have known half a dozen — approximately, there might be 
 more who could not get licenses. They were people who came into the country - 
 jirincipally Scotchmen. They were fishing foi- cannei'ies and fishing cannery boats— on 
 shares, I suppose. 
 
 Q. Were these good, deserving inen?- A. Yes, sir; they were all good, deserving 
 men, and were doing very good work fishing for the cannei'ies, as far as I know. 
 
 Q. Is it more profitable for a man to fish with his osvn boat than for a cannei-y ? — 
 A. It is more profitable for him to fish his own boat. 
 
 Q. What number of boat licenses would keep each of these canneries I'unning in 
 your section ? — A. Well, I would say, in a very poor season when the fish strike in 
 probably for a few days, fifteen or twenty boats would keej) them going. 
 
 Q. I mean the season through? — A. Oh, well, taking the season through, with the 
 exception of those few days, I think they would get away with forty or fifty boats - 
 some of them more, according to the capacity of the cannery. 
 
 Q. Have you an idea of what the capacity of a cannery is- say tho.se down near 
 you — 15,000 or 20,000 cases? — A. Something like that, T suppose. If thei-e was a good 
 market, they could put up (juite a few more than they do. 
 
 Q. Ordinarily, how many boats are required to get a fair catch ? — A. Oh, ordin- 
 arily, I think forty boats. 
 
 Q. They could not supply their canneries with twenty-five boats ? 
 they got outside fishermen. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of the law regarding the weekly close time? — A 
 
 Q. Is it well kept ? — A. I don't find any people encroaching. 
 
 Q. Did you ever find any violation of it ? — A. None last summer. 
 
 Q. And the year before when fishing yourself, did you violate it ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 A. Not unless 
 Yes, si I'. 
 
186 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 Q. Ar«' III! lishcniu'H that you now Imvo jiirisdictiori over roiitt'nt, or is there any 
 discontent anion<j them tliat th«fy would rather not fish on Sunday ?- A. I never lieaid 
 any. I think some would like to tish on Sunday if they could, f never heard any com- 
 plaining' of havin;^ to j,'o out on Sunday nij,'ht. 
 
 (^. There are .some men who would rather not f{o ? — A. Well, T have not come 
 acrcss them yet. 
 
 C^. As an oflioer on this river, what are your tindin^'s as to the liatehery on the 
 river — beneficial or otherwise? — A. My opinion is that it lias been beneficial. 
 
 (}. Do ytiu think it should be increased, remain as it is, or enlarj,'ed ? A. T think, 
 in the interest of the fisheries, it should be enlarf^ed, so as more canneries should ;,'et in 
 operation. 
 
 C^. What is y«»ur idea as to the class of people who should f,'et licenses ?- -A. T think 
 anybody should who f{<»t into a boat and fished. They should be entitled to tish, pro- 
 vided he is a IJritish subject and resident fisherman. 
 
 Q. All entitled to <me licen.se? A. One license, if they wish to f,'et it. 
 
 i}. What do you think of a man .sellinj,' his licen.se to his neighbour? — A. T don't 
 think that is correct -it should not bo tiansferable. 
 
 Q. Have you had anything to do with the coast fisheries? A. No; I was only 
 employed for three months. I have fished in Cowichan J>ay, on Vancouver Island. 
 
 (}. What were you fishing for? — ^A. Salmim T fi.shed with a seine. 
 
 *.^. What sort of a seine — what length? A. I think about eighty and 100 fathoms. 
 
 Q. And what clepth ? — A. I think the "pound" would be about ten fathoms. 
 
 Q. And tht> arms ? — A. Would be less. 
 
 ii. What sized mesh did you use? — A. T think the snuiUest in it was three and a- 
 half inches extension. 
 
 Q. Was the bag portion any different? — A. The bag was three and a half. 
 
 Q. And the arms ? — A. Five to six inches the nearer you go to the arms the 
 larger the mesh. 
 
 • Q. And the working of the seine -would the lead-lines drag on the l)ottom? -A. 
 Well, in some ca,ses they use drag stones when the lead-lines go to the bottom. In other 
 cases they fish in deep water, and they purse them in, and the lead-lines never get to the 
 bottom. 
 
 Q. Then you know of purse seines in the Atlantic? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What view is entertained of purse seines on the Atlantic ? — A. Well, by those 
 fisliing along shore, that it breaks up the schools of mackerel and interferes with the run 
 of fish. 
 
 Q. If the pui'.se seine were used on the coast here would it be more dangerous here 
 than drifting, and catch more .salmon ? A. AVell, as a rule, they cannot be used in the 
 mouth of rivers, or near the mouths of rivers. 
 
 Q. Why not ? — A. So many drift logs and things of that kind. 
 
 Q. Then, where are they used? A. Out in the estuaries. 
 
 Q. And would drift nets or seines be more injurious — which would catch more 
 fish ? — A. Oh, the seine would catch more fish. 
 
 Q. .Vnd if the seine were drawn across the mouth of a river would fish come up? 
 — A. Oh, that would injure the run of fish. 
 
 (}. With regard to the mesh of a seine and a gill-net would ."i.^ inch mesh take 
 more tish than 5^-inch me.sh ? A. No ; a o-inch mesh in the " pound " of a seine 
 would not be strong enough the idea is to have them so as t(» let the fi.sh mesh. 
 
 <^. With 3.',-inch mesh, they would not, but would with 5-inch ? — A. They wduld 
 not or at least not many of them. 
 
 Q. You think, upon the whole, that a seine is more destructive than a drift net .' 
 A. Yes ; .salmon as a rule will not gill into a net in clean watei- outside. 
 
 Q. And therefore you use seines to get around them and they are more destructive ! 
 — A. Yes, they ai-e more destructive. 
 
 Q. And you think also that the use of seines at the mouth of a river or its 
 estuary would be injurious to the passage of fish up i-iver ? A. To a certain extent 
 some say than a drift net — a drift net will not pay in clean water. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FiaUERY COMMIScilON. 
 
 187 
 
 A. r 
 
 A. 
 
 Tlit'V won; siiltiiig 
 
 the riuliims tiiko 
 
 i-i. WImt (ithcM- Hsh do you cfitoh Viesi<les salmon in yi»iii" Hcinc ? A. A tVw dnj,'- 
 tish, a Few trout, ii tVw roek end. 
 
 ii. What do you rail " trout 1" A. They ar« like younj^ sahiuin. 
 
 Q. What weight? A. '2\ to 4 iM»uiids. 
 
 (^>. Is tluTt' anything else caught in tin- hag of the net h).ss that 4 piiunds .' 
 think there has heen a few. 
 
 (.}. Do you know what a sniolt is ? — A. Yes. 
 
 (}. Do you know what .i "parr'' is? It is much smaller than a " smolt. 
 No ; we dont get any of these. 
 
 ii. What ave done with the little feUows when caught .' A. 
 them some wer.' sent t<t Vancouver market. 
 
 (•i. Were any thrown away on shore as heing useless f A. No 
 them. 
 
 Q. Were they caught in uonsideral)le numhers ? — A. < >li, it depends upon the season. 
 
 (}. Some seasons you would catch considerahle numl)eis ? A. \\'ell, I nevt-r tislied 
 there except the one season 1 may have caught a couple of thousands of them. 
 
 Q. Would you catch herring, too? A. No, sir ; I never caught herring. 
 
 (.}. You have no mackerel here? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then having fished on the coast you could give .some idea as to the relative value; 
 of the fishing in the Northern Hivers and on the Fraser River -is it ju.st that S20 
 should be paid here and only 85 on the upjier riveis ? \. Well, 1 would say like this 
 there is a bettei- market for ti.sh here, and the fishermen can better attbrd to. 
 
 (-i. Hut can a canneryman better ati'ord to pay S'2i) here than he could on the 
 Skeena ? — A. Well, I dont know. 
 
 ii. But a man who runs 40 boats on the Sker'na, could he afVord to pay more — 
 there should be e»|uality ? A . No ; I think not it is more expensive to get up north 
 and laboui' is harder to get. 
 
 Q. Then you think i.'.ie present .system about right? A. Well, I am not posted 
 enough on the.se northern rivers to give an idea. 1 have only fished a while over in 
 Cowichan. I am not pi-eparef'i to give an opinion as to whether the license fee is too 
 much or not, not being awai-e of the disadvantages up the coast. 
 
 Q. What is the average weight of fish caught down the rivei- ? A. When they 
 first come in they are smaller than afterwards — I think one-half a pound less ; the 
 second run would be larger. 
 
 ii. What right through would be the average of sockeye salmon ? — A. T would 
 say six and a half pounds. 
 
 Q. Right thi'ough the season ? — A. Yes ; of course I am not very sure. 
 
 Q. Tf anothei- said seven and a half or eight, you would not say he was wi'ong? — 
 A. W^ell, if a man said eight I would .say he was wrong. 
 
 Q. I suppose you are not well acipiainted with the interiuil working of the 
 canneries? — A. No ; not the particulars inside 
 
 Q. Do you think, as an officer, that the limits on which you have to perform your 
 duties are too large for you to efficiently do those duties ?— A. Well, no; there is not a 
 great nundier of boats ; I think a change should be made now and then ; another 
 otticer should take my place ; the fishermen generally get their eyes on to an officei', and 
 it would be well to change the officers now and then. 
 
 Q. l>ut would a new man know the boats at a new place as well ? — A. AVell, but 
 he would have better chances of catching offenders. 
 
 Q. Well, have you anything else to offer ? — A. Well, there are streams up the 
 • river and people living along there who destroy fish in the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. AVhat creeks have you refeience to? — A. Well, those I know of are: The 
 Serpentine, flowing into Mud Bay, and the Nicomekle. 
 
 Q. The fish go up there to breed? — A. Y'"es ; in the heai \*aters. 
 
 CJ. What are they principally ? — A. Cohoes princijjally. 
 
 Q. Any sockeyes ? — A. No, 1 think not. 
 
 Q. And the inhabitants catch them late in the season ? 
 of October, or when ? — A. In the month of October — -that 
 
 season. Then there are other little bi-anches coming into the Fraser Salmon Rivei', 
 at Longley. 
 
 How late ? Fn the month 
 is, I think, the sjuiwning 
 
188 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 (}. Yuu Mpcuk of tli»' s|)H\viiinj( season of colinos Iwiii;; in OcIoImt and Novenilwr — 
 have you any knowlcdj,'** of the spawning season of soekeye at other places ,' A. No : 
 1 have seen tlieni uj) eountiy tlie season before last, >,'oing throu;,'h the (^uesnell l{iver 
 uj) in Cariboo ; f have seen then> pass undei' the l>ridge there in ( >ftol)er. 
 
 (}. Have you seen them actually spawninj,' / A. No; I think they go up farther 
 than that. 
 
 (^. Do yon know when spring salmon sjiawn / — .\. N(t, sir; I am not prepared 
 to say. 
 
 (}. Then you draw attention to the pro])riety of having these smaller rivers looked 
 after during the spawning season ! -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anythitig else you would like to refer to? As an otHcer, you are 
 generally supposed to know more of the fisheries than other people ? A. Well, it is 
 generally supposed that salmon here is the same as that *>\\ the Atlantic coast, hut I 
 think dillerent. 
 
 (}. What difference is there between the spring salmon heie and the salmon on the 
 Atlantic coast ?- A. The most particular ditlerence is that salmon on this river are 
 longer in proportion to their' size than fish there, anil they have a diOerent taste, and 
 are more substantial food than Atlantic salmon. 
 
 Q. How do you nuike out more substantial foodi -A. Well you can eat a larger 
 (piantity, larger than of Atlantic. 
 
 i}. Well, that would not be more substantial, because you would have to eat two 
 salmon here then to one there, (Laughter.) A. Well, ])robably I made a mistake in 
 the word. 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. -Oh, well, we are all liable to that. What rivers have you fished on 
 on the Atlantic coast ,' — A. I never fished on rivers ; T have fished in St. (Jeorge's Hay, 
 and have caught salmon, also in Port-au-Poit IJay in Newfoundland. 
 
 Q. And you cannot say anything about other portions of the lantic Provinces, 
 except where you have fished ? — A. Well, there is the same diffen e l)etweei\ all the 
 fish there in different places. 
 
 Q. Well, but would that make a difference hei'e wherever they are different 
 grade in different rivers'? — A. Well, the feel of the fish is different -what I mean to 
 say is that fish there are moi-e substantial. 
 
 Q. Oh, I see you reverse it -yuu said these salmon were more substantial f-- A. 
 Yes, I mean the reverse. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other difference ? — A. The tail of the salmon there is not 
 .so broad as here. 
 
 Q. Hut if I tell you that the salmon's tail will vary with the river in which they 
 have to travel? — It is a fact that the tail of the salmon will be fiinier for this river than 
 for a slower stream if salmon have to go up a nmddy sluggish river its tail will be dif- 
 ferent to that of the fish that has to go up a rapid clear water. So you see that is no 
 real difierence in the fish. And is that the only lifference you know of ? — A. That is 
 the only difierence. 
 
 Q. Is there any salmon i'eseml)ling sockeye on the Atlantic coast that you know 
 of ? — A. I never saw uiy. 
 
 the grilse young salmon of 3 and 4 pounds weight? -A. Yes, 
 
 i 
 
 Q. Have you see 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Would they 
 them so much. 
 
 Q. Would they i 
 what the fish caught 
 sides,"' but I have ne 
 
 'semble sockeye ? — A. Well, I don't think they wou'.d resemble 
 
 I be silvery and bright ? — A. \''es, they would be- they resemble 
 ere in winter are more than any other — they are called '' silver, 
 r caujiht them — they come into the markets in winter. 
 
 Q. Are " silvei- sides " red-meated ? — A. They are a little paler. 
 
 .% Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Then they would resemble more the grilse of the Atlantic. Have you any- 
 thing further ? -A. No. nothing further. 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT — Well, we are much obliged to you — that will do, thank you. 
 
imiTISII COMJMniA FIHIiERY COMMISStON. 
 
 189 
 
 JAMKS A. LAIDIiANV, a mitivf of Scotliuid, living,' in liiitisli ('(»hiiiil»iii sinoo 
 iSCrJ, a salmon niiiruT, and at jirt'sciit it'sidinj,' in New Wfstniinstcr, was duly swurii. 
 
 Mr. Laidi.aw. Mr. Cliairnian, I am not wi-ll t>iiiiuf.;li to answri' i|iu>sti<nis, lint 
 wiiuld prrtfi' |iiiltiiiK ill tlii.s .statfiiient un my <'\ idciici-, and I will lie willing tn answer 
 any qiit'stion you may wisli to a.sk. (Mr. Laiillaw tlit'r»'U|Min liiiiidfd to tin- Cliaiiiiiaii 
 tin- t'ollowiny .stat«'m»'iit wliicli was read and ordered to Ix' inscrtrd in llu* Minutes) : — ■ 
 
 To th>' f!<)i/iif C'oiiiiiiifixioii iKiir lir'niif hrhl in .Ynr W'fsfiiiiiisfir, 
 
 Ukntlkmkn. — " Many thanks for allowing' nu- to <,mv(' my t'\ idcine in writing,', 
 instead of verlial, on acrount of my health. 
 
 " AV placinji olFal in the river: I do not think it can he of the shj^htest injury to 
 the salmon running' in tlit; rivei-. 
 
 " I. 'Ilie j,'reatei' jiart of the utlal is eaten hy si'a\en<^er tish in a short time after 
 it is jnit in the river. 
 
 " L'. I think foediiij; the scavenij;er lish here, ki-eps them from jjoiiiji to the spawn- 
 in;^ jjrounds to desti'oy tlit; spawn there. 
 
 " '.\. We know that millions of the salmon die up the river and lio putrifyiiij,' in the 
 small streams and shoals, wiiieh must he worse than the small portion of the salmon 
 that the canners return to the river. In a ;;ood season the eaniieis and their em|iloyees 
 must u.se from ei^dit to ten thousand tons of j,'ood tish. hesides the (dliil. If those !»,0U0 
 tons were let pass, the ^{reat majority of them would he lyinj,' j>utrifyin<,' the same as 
 tho.se that do reach the spawnin;^ fjrounds. 
 
 '' 4. So, for the samt; reasoim. i do not think that from a sanitary view the present 
 manner of disposing of it can be injurious.' 
 
 /i**- Lic^nses : 
 
 "Foi-merly the canneries had forty hoats, then they were cut down to ahout twenty- 
 four — last year cut down to twenty. With twenty-tive hoats each cannt^ry would still 
 have to employ ([uite a number of outside licen.ses to lun their caniieiies so that unless 
 it is the intention of the department to make the ca|iital invested in canneries non-pro- 
 ductive, they surely will not place us entirely at the niercy of the tishernien. 
 
 " 2. Hy having twenty-five boats, each cannery employs a number of Tndian.s, and 
 their women and their children help in the cannery. Those Indians, by getting employ- 
 ment in the canneries are .self-.supporting, and, though wards <tf the Dominion, get little, 
 if any suppoit from them. Without licenses we cannot help the fndians." 
 
 lie Hatchery : 
 
 " For my part I have not the slightest doubt that the hatchery is a benefit and 
 will be a benefit, T am only sorry to see the money raised here as a special tax on fish- 
 ing licenses to assist in proi)agating salmon here, should lie taken back east to l)onus 
 eastern fishermen, oi- perhaps worse, instead of using it here to build more hatcheries. 
 And any other manner that may assist in propagating the tish wheie the special tax is 
 raised for the purpose, as I believe. I can only think that any one asserting that the 
 hatchery is no use, must do so from jirejudice. Certainly, the salmon were more plenti- 
 ful last year than on former ])oor years. There were parties that said it was no use 
 before it was a year built, ai'd some of them, as usual, are of the .same opinion still. I 
 am very sorry that more are not being built. I think we might then have enough of 
 fish and stop this scjuabbling.' • 
 
 lie Close time — Sunday : 
 
 " 1. Several close times have been tried, but the present clo.se time, I think, far the 
 best for both the Indian and the employer. With a long lay-off it would be hard to 
 get them in their boats before Monday noon, and then many of them of little use, as there 
 aie plenty of men ready to provide them with whiskey. A change from the present 
 would, I believe, be very detrimental to all concerned. 
 
 " 2. That a local commission or local advisory board should be appointed for the 
 province. That they should acijuire as thorough a knowledge as possible of the habits 
 of the salmon and all retiuirements to propagate and continue the industry, was strongly 
 reconnnended by a committee of the Canners' Association, 4th February, 1891. 
 
w 
 
 190 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 " I thoroujjhly endorsee] the report of that committee and have seen no reason to 
 chan<,'e my mind but would like to add that all the money raised from licenses should 
 be spent in the province to build more hatcheries and propagate salmon generally. 
 
 " Yours respectfully, 
 
 (8gd.) "J. A. LATDLAW." 
 
 (Representing with T. K. Ladner and ]\. P. Rithet, seven canneries on the coast — 
 five on Kraser Kiver, one on Skeena and one on Naas Rivers.) 
 
 Bij Jfr. Wiliiiot : 
 
 Q. You say about throwing offal in the river — you say it i^i not the slightest injury 
 to salmon running in there? — A. I do. 1 have been fishing here for fifteen years, and 
 certainly the fish are not fewer now than when we started, and for that reason I 
 certainly cannot think the offal is injurious that is run in. 
 
 Q. What effect has it from a sanitary stand-point ? -A. Well, I suppose, as far as 
 .sanitary considei-ations go — as I state they take out 7,000 or 8,000 *^^ons of fish from the 
 river, and if we didn't take them out, they would lie putrifying liku the rest of them 
 do, or most of them. 
 
 Q. Was the river very nmch polluted when you came here or before 1 — A. Well. I 
 cannot say, as T 6anriot tell any difference between then and now. 
 
 Q. Rut if all went up and died, the river would be in the same position as then? — 
 A. I don't say all die. 
 
 CJ. Well, but would it not be in the same position as before? — A. Well, the differ- 
 ence is this : ' '\e offal is seen down hei-e and the peoj)le think it offensive, but if they 
 would only gt» up there and see the thousands putrifying like they do, they would think 
 it very little. 
 
 Q. Then if not caught, the fish would take their entrails and other offal up with 
 them ? — (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Laidl.vw. — Then most of the offal we put in the river is eaten up by the 
 scavenger fish in the river. 
 
 Q. Then you think if these fish went up the river these scavenger fish would follow 
 them and eat the dead ? — A. Well, T don't know. I have thought that by feeding these 
 scavenger fish, we keep them from going up to eat the s])awn up the river. 
 
 Q. Then you also keep them from eating the dead fish up there? — (Laughter.) — A. 
 W^ell, T know they eat up the spawn at the canneries very voraciously. I have seen 
 them often. 
 
 Q. Well, T cannot see this 9,000 tons t)f fish as you do?— A. Well, if you will 
 figure it you will see this !),000 tons of fish aie good fish — not offal, but good fish. 
 
 Q. 9,000 tons of whole fish ?--A. Yes ; 9,000. You think it does not come in the 
 river? Any man can figui'e it up in two and a half minutes -T well know that, of 
 course. 
 
 Q. Then you think offal not injurious to either fish or the human family? — A. T do 
 not. 
 
 Q. You say that millions of salmon die up liver and in small streams, and which 
 must be worse than the oifal put in ? There are few inhabitants there, are there ?— A. 
 Well, but do not all those putrid matters come down this i-iver, and though they don't 
 see it, they drink it ? 
 
 Q. Then vWiat a man don't see, he knovss nothing about? — .\. Well, there is some- 
 thing in that. Certainly rotten mattfM- on the banks and washing into the stream, it 
 all goes down. 
 
 Q. Rut it has been shown that disease is created in some sloughs, and when left on 
 the shore by the tide it must be worse than the essence coming down the river ? -A. 
 Well, I have seen reports fi'oni a doctor who sa3's it was not an injury. 
 
 Q. Doctors differ and patients die, you know?— A. Well, I am not a doctor and, 
 of course, T 'eave that point for the department to decide. In my opinion, it is not 
 injurious either to fish or the human family. 
 
 Q. In your establishment do you drop offal right down under tlie Hoor of the 
 cannery ?— A. No ; we use it in an oil factory. 
 
BRITISH COI.UMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 191 
 
 Q. Did you think it advisable to use it in an oil factory ? - A. Xo, we didn't think 
 it anything of the kind ; hut the Department said they were going to enforce the law, 
 iind we went into it and had a loss. The Department then acted like ♦'ools — they neither 
 enforced it or anything else, aftei* putting us to all this expense. 
 
 Q. Then, you went into it because the ]/epartment wanted you to? A. No, but 
 l)ccause we understood it was to be enforced— we had to build another cannery just 
 through the vacillation of the Department. 
 
 Q. How did the oil factory turn out .' - A. Tt was not a success. 1 heard that a 
 party came in this moi-ning and reported that Mr. McNeely had i)ought a (juantity of 
 the oil — some 2,000 gallons or .s(miething of that kind. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. - \Vell, I dont know as that was what he actually said — perhaj)s, if 
 the secretary will turn back to his minutes of Mr. Arthurs evidence, it nuiy be explained. 
 
 The secietaiy thereupon read from his minutes of Mr. Arthur's evidence regard- 
 ing his reference to the oil and Mi'. McNeely, to the satisfaction of the chaiinu'n 
 and witness. 
 
 Jill Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. You have made oil, then, from refuse, and it has not been piotitalj'e ? — A. No; 
 it has not been sold for 50 cents a gallon — not from our factory. 
 Q. Or anywhere else?— A. Well, T could not tell you that. 
 
 lit/ Mr. A rnistromj : 
 Q. Could you tell how much it sold for? — A. About .'?;") cents a gallon. 
 
 Ji>/ Mr. Wifmot : 
 
 Q. And the (juautity you manufactured? A. "Well, T could not tell you — you must 
 ask Mr. Ladner ab(jut that. 
 
 Q. Cannot you come near the (juantity — 5,000 gallons or 10,000 galhtns ? -A. Oh, 
 something near 100 barrels. 
 
 Q. Each i)arrel would hold how much ? — A. About forty gallons, as near as T can 
 state to the best of my knowledge. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTHONci. — How many canneries did you take offal from to manufacture 
 this? 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wiliiiof : 
 
 Q. And from what canneries? -A. 1 did figure it up, but I have forgotten just 
 the number of boats we took it from. 
 
 B>/ Mr. Ariustrom/ : 
 
 Q. But that is not what we want — we want to know how many caniu'iies you took 
 tliis offal from to make this oil ? A. If you will wait a moment. 1 will give you Itoth 
 ai.swers (consulting papers) We took offal from about IGO fishing l)oats -from about 
 six canneries. 
 
 Q. Could you name the' canneries, Mr. Laidlaw ? A. Well, there is one of them 
 (hit was not uinning; still, 1 had the boats for them. 
 
 Q. But llic names? -xV. Delta Canning Company, llarloi'k Canning Ct.mpany, 
 I'^indlay, Durham and Brodie, and Wellington. 
 
 <^). Did Wadhams? — A. I don't think he did -any one was welcome to send it. 
 
 Q. They didn't .send all the offal, did they? -A. 1 think .so -we wanted more at 
 the factory. 
 
 Q. But did all the.se five canneries you refer to send all offal down to the factory? 
 — A. T think so - I could not swear to it the factory wanted more, con.seiiuently I 
 suppose they got all was there. 
 
 Q. How was the offal conveyed to the factory ?- A. We sent if in steamers and 
 scows — we were in our own business at the time and sent it ilown — the offal went down 
 in our own boats. 
 
w 
 
 192 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Well, how much more could your factory have nuiuut'aoturecl if they had got 
 the offal 'I — A. I could not answer that — I could not even give it approximately. 
 
 Q. But could you have consumed as much again if you could get the offal ? 
 Five canneries sent their offal »iown to the factory which was made into oil and other 
 products — could the factory have made up the offal from five others if it had been sent '. 
 — A. That I cannot tell you now— but they could have manufactured a good deal more. 
 
 Q. Could they have manufactured as much again ?- A. Well, T cannot tell — they 
 could have manufactured more. 
 
 Q. And in manufacturing the oil you did make from a financial stand-point did it 
 
 pay you 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you ever make an estimate of the loss ? — ^A. Mr. Ladner was in charge of 
 tiiat part of the business more than I was — I cannot give a definite answer. 
 
 Q. From the experience you have had in connection with this one oil factory con- 
 suming the olfal of five canneiies, could other establishments be put up tliat would 
 consume all the offal .' -A. Well, you know there is nothing that cainiot be done. 
 
 Q. Then it is a mere matter of expenditure and trial to do it ? — A. Yes, but the 
 (piestion is — is it of any value or benefit to any one it is a loss to us T can tell you that. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — It is the first year you have tried. Is it not a fact that many 
 industries fail the first year and afterwards succeed 1 Was the first year you went into 
 the cannery business profitable? — A. No, sir ; it was not. 
 
 Q. And the following year it was more ))rotitable ? — A. Well, I tiiink if some of 
 those e.vtraordinary witnesses you had here knew iiow we were tlie first year we started 
 they would not have given evidence they did. T will tell you, Mr. Wilmot, it is veiy 
 easy when you have made S.'iO.OOO or !i?40,000 or .Sr)0,000 out of it - are you going to 
 leave it? I have lost i^lOjOOO in a year — no one knew anything of that — every man 
 got his pay — nobody knew of my loss — that was no one's business but mine. T know 
 that in some years we made more than we can now. 
 
 Q. And those profitable years wei'e more profitable than you can make now? — A. 
 Well, some were, but T certainly understood the business just as well then as I do to- 
 day, but tlie thing was this — -theie was a surplus in the market the demand was not 
 e((ual to the supply and the price went down to !i?iioO, and you know how much money 
 you can make out of it at 83.50 ? 
 
 Q. Then on the whole tlie oil factory has not been profitable ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. You say in regard to licenses that L'o licenses m ould not be enough but that 
 each cannery would still have to employ outside licenses to run their canneries, so that 
 uidess it is the intention of the (rovernment to make tlie capital invested in canneries 
 non-productive, they surely will not place us entirely at the mercy of the fishermen. 
 This may liring up some other (juestions.- -A. All right, sir : as long as I am able to 
 speak I am ready to answer. 
 
 Q. Can you give the average number of fish taken by each boat during the season? 
 — A. No, [ have no notes for that, but I can get them from the books for you if you 
 wish. 
 
 Q. You had one year 40 boats — would they average 3,000, 4,000 or 6,000 salmon ? 
 — A. No ; i will tell you — I saw a report from some witness you had 
 
 Mr. Wilmot -I don't think you should refer to witnesses who have testified here 
 under oath. — A. Oh, well, as to averaging that number, we cannot do anything of the 
 kind. 1 was told by one man that he could go out with a b(»ttle of whiskey and a lioat 
 and get moi'e fish than with a net ; but we never could get any catches of fish like you 
 have been told. 
 
 Q. Then you cannot give the numbers of tisli delivered by boat — the average 
 delivery ? — A. No ; t'nere are two good years, you know. 
 
 Q. Well, take two good years— what average then ? — A. AV'ell, I cannot tell ; in poor 
 years I have seen men come in without tish in their Ijoat, and we had to pay them 8- 
 aiid 8-.-0 for doing it, and these .same would come other times with 300, or 400 some- 
 times — generally 200. 
 
 Q. And how long would the average season last? — A. lietween four and live 
 weeks — you can count on four weeks, perhaps more ; but you must not take 300 or 400 
 as the average fish to a boat : T never got such an average, luMther from contractors or 
 others. 
 
^BRITISH COLUMBIA TISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 193 
 
 I jioinir to 
 
 ) Scilmoii ? 
 
 i Jiverafi;e 
 
 Q. Well, some have stated they could oatch 3,000 and 4,000 dining a season, and 
 .some as high as 10,000 — then your average of 300 and 400 would not hold good on the 
 whole? — A. Certaiidy not, certainly not ; that would be for a single day. 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. — Have you any recollection of taking 700 or 800 in one day ? — A. 
 From contractors I think I have taken as many as that — that would be in 24 hours. 
 You know our own men tisli for ten or twelve hours ; two men go into a boat and go 
 out, and as soon as they come in and get the boat cleaned out, etc., two other men get 
 in and they go out. 
 
 Q. And do ordinary fishermen tish "24 hours ? — A. Xo ; they generally fish on 
 what we call *' tides," you know. 
 
 Q. Then four men in one boat would have opportunity of fishing longer than two 
 men in one boat? — A. Well, if two men go out in the night, cannot they fish till 
 morning, and if two men go out in the morning cannot they tish till night ? 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. - Yes ; l)ut if ordinary fishermen (2 men) go out, can they fish day 
 and night? — ^A. Not very well. 
 
 ii. Well, then, vron't they have an advantage over outside men ? — A. Well, T think 
 we get fully as much fnmi our own men as from contractors, taking it for the full 24 
 hours. 
 
 Q. What is the usual size of fish? A. Well, that is very hard to answer. 
 
 Q. If you get 10,000 fish in a day, will they vary very much in size — Sockeye? — 
 A. Well, in a good season it takes eleven or twelve fish to make a case at least 
 that is my ex{)erience — the fish are then smaller ; in a poor year I have seen nine salmon 
 make a case — the fish are then larger. 
 
 C^. What is the usual calculation of cans from a fish as an average? — A. Well, you 
 see a case is 48 cans ; you can very easily figure on that. 
 
 Q. Are any of these fish brought in to you when a hea\ y rush of fish is on hand — 
 can you convert all the fish into use without any loss ? A. Yes; ahnost invariably, 
 and for this reason : we have put up as much as 20,000 salmon in a day in each 
 cannery. We can put up 100 barrels of salt salmon in addition to what we can ; 1,360 
 cases and 100 barrels is the most we ever put up in a day. 
 
 Q. How many fish in a barrel ? — A. Oh, ab(jut 50 -I cannot tell exactly — it is in 
 the vicinity of 50. 
 
 Q. Well, that would make very nearly 14,000 fish in a day? -A. Well, there you 
 are away out in the pack of salmon canned. 
 
 Q. No ; I just take what you have said — taking 10 fish to the case? — A. I don't 
 say 10 fish to the case, I said 12 fish. 
 
 Q. That is, 12 would be in a good year? — -A. Yes ; do you suppose it would be a 
 poor year ? 
 
 Q. Then, 12 salmon to the case in that year ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And 100 bariels and 50 salmon in a barrel — well, that would V)e upwards of 
 16,000 fish ? — A. Well, yes ; that is all right - -we have been caught sometimes like that 
 wiien we get 20,000 salmon on the wharf. As soon as we do, every one of our men 
 knows that with three blasts of the whistle we have all the fish we can use, and they 
 at once come in with what fish they have, and what fish we don't put up that day we 
 do so the first thing in the morning. 
 
 Q. And they are always fit to put up? — A. AVell, w(> never put up all the tish ; it 
 would not pay. 
 
 (^. Well, those that would not be suitable — do you evei' gi\e them to the Indians 1 
 —A. Oh, we do — oh, yes ; they couie and take them away. Whatever the Indians 
 don't take away we shove overboai'd. They are not lit for our pui'poses. 
 
 Q. Do you call them " short " then, or what is the name ? — A. Well, I don't know 
 any name ; I can tell them when 1 feel them. 
 
 Q. I thought perhaps you had a name for them ? — A. Well, T can tell them when 
 I feel them. 
 
 Q. They feed the little fishes I suppo.se ?— (laughter) — A. Oh, no ; do you know 
 they never touch them ; they have far better things — they eat the spawn. 
 
 Q. Well, then, don't they eat the other parts then ? — A. Well, afterwards they 
 would, but they never do that until the other is done. 
 
 lOo— 18 
 
lU 
 
 MARINE AND FISIIKRIES. 
 
 Q. Do you think all bond fide British subjects and regular men who come here 
 should get a license if they want one ? — A. I have nothing in the world to do with that ; 
 that belongs to the Dominion Government. 
 
 Q. Well, do you think canners should get all the licenses they want ? — A. I think 
 the canners ought to get 25 boats as a kind of protection. They have spent their 
 money and have invested heavily in the business. They then wih have to get outsiders 
 to catch the tish they want. 
 
 Q. Then, should they have licenses ? — A. Well, it is a matter for the Dominion 
 Government. T have no objection to outside fishermen getting licenses ; still, it is a 
 matter that does not belong to me at all. 
 
 Q. \nd is it a matter for you as to what licenses canners should get 1 — A. Oh, 
 certainly ; it is self comes first. 
 
 Q. And you think fishermen should get licenses, and all that apply for them ? — A. 
 Well, that is a matter for the Dominion Government. 
 
 Q. Well, do you think all canners who put up new canneries should get licenses ? 
 - — A. Well, 1 know nothing about it ; that is not a matter for me. 1 put up a cannery 
 myself. 
 
 Q. But don't you think they should get licenses? — A. Oh, yes ; they should be 
 given licenses. 
 
 Q. But this Connnission was appointed to look into these matters and report to the 
 Government on them and we want to get all the informatiim we can so as to post them ? 
 — A. AVell, we have time and time again given our views, and they don't pay any nioie 
 attention to them than to the bark of a dog. I am tired giving my views to the Domin- 
 ion Government. 
 
 Q. Do you belong to the syndicate?— A. Well, no ; we don't belong to that syndi- 
 cate. I don't know as you can call us the syndicate — we represent .seven canneries on 
 the coast — five on the Fraser River and two up north. 
 
 Q. These Mther two are on what rivers ? — A. One on the Skeena and one (m the 
 Naas lli\er. 
 
 Q. Wliei\ did you form this syndicate 1 — A. I don't think it is a .syndicate. 
 
 Q. When did you form this company? — A. Well, it is pretty hard now to .say — we 
 started in fifteen years ago. 
 
 Q. Then these canneries luive been working together for fifteen years? — A. No; 
 about a year ago. 
 
 <,J. Ts the capital wholly amongst the .seven canneries, or is there outside capital 
 connected with it? — A. Oh, no ; there is no other capital connected with it except the 
 seven canneries joined together. 
 
 Q. No English capital or other outside capital ? — A. No ; we simply united together 
 for — well, protection. 
 
 Q. Have you found it more profitable? -A. No ; we haven't made a cent (laughter) 
 and we don't expect to make a cent next year — I am telling yon facts. 
 
 Q. Have you sold all the pack of '91 yet? — A. No; not yet. 
 
 Q. Then you don't know if you have made a cent? — A. No; we dcm't expect to — 
 we have not .sold all. 
 
 Q. If there is to be an established nunibei- of licen.ses given to oannerymen, what 
 would you c<»nsider a fair and just maximum number? — A. We have already statedthat 
 twenty-five would be a fair limit. You see, as it was before we had forty — with twenty- 
 five we leave a fair margin for outsiders that we would have to take in. 
 
 Q. Then you would think twenty-five .sati.sfactory if a limit istol)e made? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you think that le.ss than twenty-five would not be satisfactory? — A. No, 
 it would not — perhaps, Mr. Wilmot, you have not followed up matters on the Columbia 
 River — on account of the fi.shermen having control of them there they had to closedown 
 lialf the canneries theie. 
 
 Q. But you must be aware the labour organizations now area ruling power in the 
 world? — A. Well, that is a matter for the Dominion Government. 
 
 Q. Well, but that is the very reason why this Connnission is here, and the questions 
 put to you here are for no other reason than to gain informatioii for the guidance of the 
 Government ? -A. Oh well, that is all right, Mr. Wilmot, but there has been .so many 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 195 
 
 resti'ictioiis and taxes put on us that I am really astonished they have the cheek to ask 
 for capital to come forward to develop the deep-sea fisheries — you cannot get a man in 
 Victoria to spend a ten-cent piece on it. 
 
 Q. Then you think it an advantafje to advocate the canning industry ? — A. Certaiidy. 
 
 Q. And it is not advantageous to bring in desii-able innuigrants to work them ? — 
 A. Well, do you mean in numbers 1 
 
 ]Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I mean that the class of men who will come and help them- 
 selves and you too ? — A. Oh well, there are no idle men here in the fishing season. 
 
 Q. Well about giving licenses to Indians — do you think they should iiave 
 licenses 1 — A. Well, I don't think it would be of nmch use to them. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTRONfi. — I think Mr. Wilmot, licensed Indians should have their own 
 boat and net. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — But if they haven't they will go to the cannerymcn and get a boat 
 and net. 
 
 Mr. Laidlaw. — "Well, I will tell you I had to pay ^50 for a boat last year, yet the 
 (Jovernment gave one to a .saloon-keeper I 
 
 % 3Ir. WiJmot. : 
 
 Q. Now, you think the hatchery is beneficial? — A. Certainly. I think they should 
 build more — the idea of laising a special tax here and taking the money back east I 
 
 Ml'. Wilmot. — Let me disposse.ss your mind of that — there is no special tax here 
 — they pay license fees for fishing in all parts of Canada. ~A. But the Government 
 draws from here some $10,000 away from us. 
 
 Q. If you found that in other provinces it was more than that what would you 
 say ? — A. Then I want the money spent here — ^T don't want it taken back east. 
 
 Q. And you don't want any money fiom there ? — A. iSTo, not a cent. 
 
 Q. I am afraid you would not get on very well then. Now take the other pi'o- 
 vinces— this is the departmental repoi't for 1890- — now on page 13, the revenue de- 
 rived from the fisheries of the various provinces is given — Ontario, l?2.3,6G6.96, and on 
 page 10 you will find the expenditure also given by provinces, and you will find that in 
 Ontario only $14,.")39.87 of that $23,666 was expended in the protection of the fisheries 
 of the province. — A. Now, how much does it cost to run the fisheries ? 
 
 !Mr. Wilmot. — That is not the question — I want to show you that there is no 
 special tax. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. And you are under a mistaken idea, Mr. Laidlaw, when you say that you are 
 paying a special tax and that this should go to the province of British Columlna 
 specially. I pay taxes and you pay taxes and all this goes into the general fund for the 
 whole country. — A. But the Government said they required a special tax. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How long is it since you have been paying special fees 1 — A. I cannot tell you 
 from memory. 
 
 Q. Tlien you think hatcheiies are good things 1 — A. Yes, and we want more of them ; 
 if they put up more hatcheries, T am perfectly willing to pay my share. 
 
 Q. No, if you got more hatcheries you would not pay for it. It would come from 
 the general fund of the whole countiy without any more additional taxes being levied— 
 your idea is not the right one. Now, do you think hatcheries should be built down at 
 the foot of the rivers or at the head of them ? A. Well, T would leave that to the 
 department — at present the s})a\vn is gathered at Harrison River and taken down here 
 to the hatchery — why not have a hatchery up there I I think both spring salmon and 
 sockeye should be cultivated, and I have not the slightest doubt in the world that the 
 spring sfilmon will become sufficiently plenty to be used by canners. 
 
 Q. But what about the white spring salmon 1 — A. Well, that is a tiling I can't tell. 
 
 10c- 13* 
 
196 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 Q. But we cannot cliscein in taking eggs from them ? — A. ^^^'ll, an expert van 
 nearly tell in taking tlie white salmon or the red one. 
 
 Q. You think the present close time is correct ?~A. Yes ; I don't think it could 
 he improved — in fact, it would be injured, if changed any, and be very detrimental to all. 
 
 Q. Should license fees be all alike? — A. On this river? Oh, as far as this river is 
 concern<!d, all licenses should be alike ; but up north they have not the benefit of the 
 hatchery or anything of that kind, and ^ don't think they sliould pay the same as wo 
 down here. 
 
 Q. Then, you think the benefit of the hatchery worth the difference? — A. Yes; 
 we never had such a good jxtor year as this last one, and I cannot but give some benefit 
 to the hatchei-y. I am perfectly willing to pay my share, if another hatchery is to be 
 built here. But (jn the Skeena I don't know it would be necessary, as we get plenty of 
 what we want. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstrinig : 
 
 (}. Is there a canners' association in existence at the present time?- 
 Q. Well, it has been said, you know, that it is not. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Is what you mean by association this advisory board -as you say in your 
 written evidence submitted, it was strongly recommended by a committee of the 
 Canners* Association, 4th February, 1891. — A. Yes and that recommendation was made 
 to Ottawa before — I thought you had a copy of it. T will send one down here for 
 you. T would oidy add — build more hatcheries. 
 
 Q. But if you think it is an extra tax paid here, we wc . 1 have to put another 
 tax upon you to build it? — A. Well, I would be quite willing to pay my share. There 
 is only om thing else I would like to say — that Mr. Armstrong said that a nuui could 
 with .^0,000 build a cannery and make $25,000 a year. I am astonished that ^Ir. 
 Armstrong would say that in evidence, because no one but a fool could give such evi- 
 dence. I am perfectly willing to run every cannery that we have got, if they give ine 
 .^25,000. I will run them all for twenty years. You see it costs us $5,000 for solder. 
 Another thing is, one man said in evidence here that ten licenses were worth $10,000. 
 Why in the world won't he come to me, or why did he not come last year ? He would 
 be iis rich as possible — why, we would give him the can.ieries to run them. 
 
 Q. One question more — what is the value of fish ? — A. AVell, that I cannot tell you. 
 
 Q. But you bought a lot of tish, did you not? — A. I had three men — contractors. 
 I had to pay 20 cents for them. 1 had ten more on contract. Them I paid 15 cents, 
 and then I got all the boats I could possibly get. 
 
 Q. You put it down, then, as very ludicrous that ten licenses were worth 810,000. 
 Now, many fishermen say they have caught G,000 fish, and at 20 cents apiece these 
 would be what?— A. 81,200, I suppose. 
 
 Q. Then, ten licenses would be more than 810,000. I think, judging from what 
 you have said here, that a license is worth 81,000 to a man. You packers have made 
 820,000 in a year ? — A. Well, I am under oath, and I have stated that I didn't make 
 a cent. 
 
 (After a few desultory remarks which were not relevant.) 
 
 Q. There is nothing more then that you wish to say ? — A. Xo ; nothing more, I 
 think. 
 
 The Chairman declared the Commission a<ljourned at 5.15 p.m. to meet at 10 a.m. 
 on the 27th February, 1892. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISIIERT COMMISSION. 
 
 197 
 
 can 
 
 Nkw Wkstmixstkh, Ji.C, 27th February, lt<92. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Commission asseml)led in the Court House at 10 a.m. imd was called to order 
 at 10.20. 
 
 Pre.seiit : — S. AVilmot, Es(j., in the Chair ; Mr. Sheriff Ai'iustron<,', Secretary 
 Winter. 
 
 in your 
 ' of the 
 I'.as made 
 here for 
 
 these 
 
 CAPTAIN G. N. C0()PP:R, a native of England, 14 years in British Columbia, 
 master mariner, and resident of New Westminster, was duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wihnnt : 
 
 Q. Now, sir, what tlo you wish to present to this Commission? — T have tii-st of all 
 some <?omplfiints to make. 
 
 A. Against whom ? A. A^'ainst the Domiinon (rovernment and its agent. T 
 liHve been a tlsherman since my boyhood up and I have been engaged at the fisheries in 
 different capacities ever since in this country— also in the United States and in England 
 as a boy. 
 
 Q. So you are tlioroughly conversant and able to give a pretty good view on all 
 Hshery questions? — A. Yes; last year I e(|uipped the steamer "Dreadnought." 
 
 By Mr. Armstrony : 
 
 Q. Just give us what 30U want about fishing? A. AVell, I built and equipped the 
 steamer on purpose to engage in the fisheries and to put her in service as a fishing 
 steamer. I applied for license. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. For fishing where ? — -A. All over the coast — I ap))lied for license to fish all rivers. 
 
 Q. Any especially ? — A. None especially — my object in building the steamer was 
 tu catch fish and bring them to wherever I had a chancer best to dispose of them. 
 
 Q. That would take in Fraser River, Naas, and other rivers ? — A. Yes ; I applied 
 for license to Mr. Mowat to fish on the Fraser River and was refused. The only 
 reason ]Mr. Mowat gave was that I was well enough off now and had a steamer and 
 should not have a license. I told him then that pei'haps if T had spent all my money 
 for whiskey I would get a license. T had a license the year liefore, but he said as I 
 had not fished for a year I had lost my chance for getting one. I also asked him if it 
 was possible for me to obtain permission from the Domiinon (rovernment to select a 
 stream on the coast where fishing operations were not carried on, to stock it, and to get 
 the river for 5 or 10 years myself. He said I could not do that. 
 
 Q. You made the proposition that you would stock it yourself ? — A. Yes ; and he 
 said he could do nothing in the matter. I told him T thought it was pretty hard aftei* 
 spending all my life in the fisheries, and being a British subject, and hari spent my 
 money in fitting out a steamer to engage in the fisheries — tleep-sea as well as in rivers — 
 and then tho.se who were spending their money in whiskey could get licenses. 
 
 Q. How long did you fish undei' license? A. One year — in 1884 — excepting, of 
 course, on the other side. I fished on the Cohnnbia liiver over a license. 
 
 Q. A license then had to be obtained there? -A. Yes ; for 8-">- 
 
 « 
 
 By Mr. Armstrony : 
 
 Q. And were you a British subject there, and a license granted to you ?— A. Yes, 
 sir : it was customary at that time when all could get licenses. 
 
^11 
 
 198 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. And from the Federal (Toverimieiit or th^ State (io\ erniiient ? — ^A. That T can- 
 not say Well, T think it must have lieen from the Federal Government, because the 
 Columbia River flows between the two States. 
 
 By Mr, Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And you are sure it gave you permissit)n to fish on the Columbia River in the 
 two States ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What was this license for ? — A. For salmon — there is no other fishery there. 
 
 Q. And then you came here? — A. Yes; that was in '7H, I have remained here 
 ever since. 
 
 Cj. What is the capacity of your steamer?- A. Well, unfortunately T had to sell 
 her. 
 
 Q. Would it be out of the way for you to state the value of the steamer ? — A. 
 $5,000. 
 
 Q. Then you have been fishing on the Fraser and elsewhere since —in what way ? 
 — A. I have only lately sold the steamer. I have not been fishing since. 
 
 Q. When did you sell her? — A. About six months ago. I had to g(t towing, as I 
 could not get a license ; 1 had to go towing instead. 
 
 Q. Since you could not get licenses on the ri\er, have you fished ?^ — A. Yes ; I have 
 been foreman of fishing camps for canneries ; besides that t have had boats and nets at 
 different times belonging to the canneries. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by camps ? — A. The canneries don't fish all their boats at 
 one place — they establish camps along the river. The fishermen catch the fish in the 
 river and carry them to the camps, where they are put in scows. Each cannery has 
 from two to three or four camps. 
 
 Q. What company were you foreman for ? — A. I have been foreman for four or five 
 companies. 
 
 Q. Then you are thoroughly conversant with the system carried on ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Well, will you just relate — when boats come with fish to the scow, what would 
 be a fair average number of the fish ? — A. In a good season 300 to 600 in a day. 
 
 Q. And how many days is the usual period during sockeye season ? — A. Well, that 
 would last from two to three and it has lasted as long as four weeks. I dont mean con- 
 tinuous fishing — sometimes they run better than others. 
 
 Q. But the usual run is how lor ' — A. From two to f(»ur weeks. When Ihe run 
 is light, they are in umch smaller numbers. 
 
 Q. Do you count the fish as they are brought in ? — A. Yes ; the foreman counts 
 the fish. It is usually entered in books, and the fishermen, if they have a book, would 
 do so, too. 
 
 Q. Would this book belong to the foreman ? — A. Oh no ; to the cannery. There 
 is also a printed form with the numbers of the boats, and the fish brought in are entered 
 opposite each nuiid)er. 
 
 Q. Fish caught by No. 18 would be entered opposite No. 18? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. AVhat is the laigest number you have known to be brought in? — Oh, a 
 boatful. 700 to 800. 
 
 Q. And do you total up the total at the end of the season ? — A. Oh, no, the can- 
 neries would do that. 
 
 Q. Attd what is the everage catch in a season ? — A. In a good season 8,000 to 
 12,000 fish in a boat. 
 
 Q. And are any of these injured that are V)rouglit in? — A. Oh no ; practically not. 
 
 Q. And how long will the- boat remain there ? — A. As a general rule men come in 
 and discharge the fish from the scow after coming in. 
 
 Q. How many fish would a scow hold ? — A. A small one would hold 3,000. 
 
 Q. And a large one ? — A. Well, some used to hold 10,000 ; some were larger than 
 necessary ; the larger ones would hold about 6,000 or 7,000. 
 
 Q. Do these scows genei-ally leave the camps with fish all in prime condition ? — A. 
 Generally ; almost without exception. 
 
 i|vi? 
 
BKITISII COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 199 
 
 our or hve 
 
 H\ Ihe run 
 
 the average 
 
 general average from one 
 
 Q. Have you known any instances when they were not ? — A. T have known one 
 ((!• two instances ; T liave known half a scow load thrown away from it being injured 
 tVoni the weather when hot. 
 
 Q. Have you any term "short," or otherwise, to indicate these fish ?- A. No; 
 there is no special name. 
 
 i.i. When scows arrive at the canneries— you know of the process? — A. Yes, F am 
 tiioroughly conversant with the whole process. 
 
 Q. What plan are they then pitched up on the wharf ? A. They are generally 
 put up in i)oxes or cranes and often with an iron-pointed fork ; the point is put in the 
 lieml and the tish are thrown u{). They are then cleanetl at once. The whaives are 
 always covei-ed and the cleaners are right at the edge of the wharf, and they clean 
 them right there. 
 
 Q. What is the process of cleaning? A. They cut off the heads, tins and tails; 
 these are first cut of!', and then the fish is cut in pieces to fit the cans. 
 
 Q. And the offal is taken out too? A. Yes, 1 consider that all offal. 
 
 Q. And then ? A. It is cut in suitable sizes to fit the cans. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Ar)i}»trong : 
 Q. How many pieces will a fish make? — \. Four or five. 
 
 By Mr. Wi/inot : 
 
 Q. Well, now, take the sockeye- what is the average weight ? A. They usually 
 go from 10 to a case when fish run large and when smaller II to 12 
 weight of the fish would be a trifle over six pounds, 
 
 Q. Tn both short and long seasons? — A. Yes ; that is a 
 season to another. 
 
 Q. And would fish not lose during a heavy run ? — A. I never noticed any dif- 
 ference. ' 
 
 Q. One fish will then make fi-om i to 5 cans, you say? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then the next process is, I suppose, put through until they get in the boxes ? 
 —A. Yes. 
 
 (,). Well, take the average of establishments — how many hands arf here employed 
 altogether, including Indians, Chinamen and forenijn, not boatmen ? A. Well, from 
 •SOO to 400 ; that would include boatmen and all persons employed about the cannery. 
 
 Q. How many persons would be employed in the cannery alone ? — A. Probably 
 from 100 to 200 inside. 
 
 Q. You are taking a fair average ? — A. Yes ; T think it would be nearer 100 — 
 say 120 <tr 150 -it depends on the season and run of fish they get and the men they 
 get to work. Of course that applies to a big season ; in a small season they will not 
 require as many. 
 
 Q. How many white men would there be inside ? — A. 5 to 7 or 8 , the rest would 
 be all Chinamen and Indians. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of the usual price paid per diem to Chinamen and Indians 1 
 — A. It is done generally by contract — if Chinamen are on day work they get 81 to 
 81.2") a day — I think that is all they get under the Chinese contractor. 
 
 Q. During your time and to your knowledge, a contractor will take in, clean, and 
 pack the fish at so much per case ? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of how nnich per case ? — A. No, I have no idea, 
 
 Q. And if he hires Indians or Chinamen by day work — how much ?— A. I have an 
 idea, as I told you before, $1 to 81.25. 
 
 Q. And you have knowledge that some fish would be spoiled on top of the scow, and 
 thrown off into the water? — A. Well, that is unusual — I have not seen it — I have seen 
 a few fish thrown ofi' that were exposed to the sun. 
 
 Q. A few were thrown off but that is exceptioiuil ? — A. Exceptional. 
 
 Q. And if large numbers are brought to the cannery and they cannot get through, 
 would they be canned next day ? — A. Well, they generally can get them in cans next 
 day or if they have too many fish they can stop their boats and not get any more. 
 
T 
 
 200 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. What is a fair avf;raf(e of the nuniher of cases turned out of a cannery 15,000 ? 
 — A. Yes, r think that would l)e the least — that is when the factory is workiii},' at 
 full capacity. 
 
 Q. I mean all the jear through ? — A. Oh, yes; that would he a high average 1 think. 
 
 Q. How nuiiiy boats would it take to faii'ly supply a cannery turning out that 
 nuuiher? — A. In a good season twenty boats. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wihnvf : 
 Q. Some seasons there would he 
 
 great many more cases turned out? —A. Oh, 
 
 yes : in a hig run it would he the full capacity of the cannery whatever that might be 
 — some might go as high as ;iO,000 cases. 
 
 Q. And in a low season that might be reduced ? — A. Yes, to 5,000 or 6,000. — I 
 think there is only one cannery that could turn tnit the highest number. T don't know 
 exactly what his capacity is, but 1 think quite as high as that in a good run. 
 
 Q. I understand last year he turned out 25,000 cases was that a good year? — A. 
 J was away towing on the cfiast and so am not well posted as to what last year was. 
 
 ii- With regard to the offal business — the fish you .say are cleaned, heads and tails, 
 and entrails taken out, and then it falls into the water? — A. Yes. 
 
 <i». What do y(»u think is it injurious to water, tish, or anything at all? A. It is 
 not injurious to the river at all unless through carelessness it is allowed to remain on 
 the banks of the river. 
 
 Q. How would it go on the banks of the river? A. As a general rule the canneries 
 are near the bank — 40 or 50 feet from the bank — thevn is .so much offal thrown into the 
 river, some must get on the bank when it is not all eaten uj). If the offal were put in 
 deep water i don't think we would hear anything of the offal. I have seen the ofll'al 
 eaten ,so fast we could not find a trace of it at all. I think though the Chinese should 
 be pi'evented from catching these small tish suckers we generally call them, though 
 there are se\ eral kinds —The Chinese frequently dip up buckets full while they are eat- 
 ing the offal-I think they should be stopped from doing this. 
 
 Q. Uut would not that be jireventing men from catching food just like they say 
 canneries should be prevented from catching so many salmon ?- -A. Well, but let them 
 eat salmon — it would be much better. 
 
 Q. Have you seen offal lodge along the banks and sloughs? A. Notasmuchas 
 dead tish — 1 have seen thousands of dog-salmon and humpbacks left on the banks by 
 the Indians and they have been much woi-se than all the olfal put together. 
 
 Q. Then you think offal not injurious either to the river or to the people who di-ink 
 the water? — A. No, for this reason — there is ncjthing but a few heads that ever decom- 
 pose in the river, and the (|uantity is .so small that it cannot hurt this river. All the 
 heads put togethei- fi'om New Westminstei' to the mouth would not be as much as I 
 have seen in one hour of dead tish on the Harrison River. I do not think as much injury 
 can be made from this oH'al as from the dead tish on the Hari-ison Hiver. 
 
 Q. Have you seen many dead tish coming down the river? — A. Yes, I have seen 
 millions strewn on the water from Harri.son to the mouth of the river - floating on the 
 water. I would suggest that canneries be compelled to discharge all offal into deep 
 water and not let it remain around the shores it is very of^'ensive to the smell. 
 
 g. Not to the health ?— A. No, I don't think to the health. 
 
 <^. But if you think the smell from dead fish would be so great, would not offixl be 
 as bad? — A. Well, I think the offal should be put into deep water. 
 
 Q. What is your idea of it being converted into oil or fertilizer? — A. I think it a 
 good idea if it would pay — there were two factories over at Astoi'ia and they were run 
 successfully. 
 
 Q. Is it not possible for the same to be done here ? — A. I think, if in the hands of 
 the right parties, it would pay. 
 
 ii. Would it be more expensive for canneries to put the ofi'al in the river oi* to put 
 it in the factory? — A. Well, on the Columbia river the oil factories sent for the offal. 
 
 Q. Then it would be more expensive to put offal in the deep channel of the rivei'? 
 — A. Well, yes it would be well to have arrangement made over on the other side 
 they have a frame work made to catch all the offiil and it runs from that into scows, 
 and it was taken away by the oil men. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 201 
 
 Q. Could not that be doiH" heie ? — A. Well, it couldlje on the lower part of the 
 liver, but I don't think it could be on the upper portions. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Arxintronrj : 
 
 Q. But have not cannerynieii all steamers of their own? -A. < )h yes, liut they have 
 no time to look after that. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What number of factories would be suflicient to utilize the oB'al here? — A. One 
 would be sufficient. 
 
 Q. If the ortal was thi'own into scows from the canneries would it not pay? A. I 
 duubt if an oil factory could keep a steamer — if they got the offal for nothinjr they could 
 make something out of it. 
 
 Q. Would it not be better for cannerymen to pay the cost of this among themselves, 
 instead of being under the penalties of the law as at present ? — A. Yes, 1 suppose so— T 
 think that would be far the cheapest way. F have heard of putting offal in the ground 
 l)ut it could be done cheajjer, because after you have the offal there you wou)d have to 
 turn u)) a hole to put it in. 
 
 Q. And you think the oidy feasible way would be by making .some use of it as 
 fertilizei- or oil? A. Well, I don't know as a fertilizer wf»uld be needed here ; it is a new 
 ( ountiy. 
 
 Q. Well, but neither do you consume the tish here, do you ?— A. Well, 1 worked 
 once in a fertilizer factory myself, and it don't jiay. 
 
 Q. But they made oil, as well, did they not? A. Yes, but what would they (h» 
 with the fertilizer ? 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Arni.'itrony : 
 
 Q. In Astoria what do they do? A. Oh, they threw the fertilizer away — they did 
 not use it. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTKONCi. — That was almost as bad as the offal. 
 
 B;/ Mr. Wi/mof : 
 
 Q. What is this fertilizer like is it a powder? A. Well, yes— like stuff you 
 sweep up from the house ; it is very light stuff. 
 
 Q. Then you think, after all, a factt)ry for utilizing the offal might easily be cairied 
 <ait here, and that one factory would acoonnnodate the whole of the cannerie.s, and that 
 oil factories on the Colund)ia Kiver weie a success? — A. They weie a success. I know 
 that one of the partners told me that he clubbed §12') a month. He had a (|uarter 
 interest, and he had made that besides his wages. He told me that himself. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close .season? -A. I think the Sunday close sea.sun 
 is all right now; that is the only feasible close season I know of. As to the other, 
 there is one month now in which there is no tisiiing done at all. 
 
 Q. AVell, I think that is an understood tiling among the canneries. Is it a fact 
 that spring salmon are more white than red .' — A. Yes, they are more white than red — 
 fully 7") per cent of them are white. There are four or ti\e varieties here of quinn.-it, 
 but all are called spring salmon — any fishermen can see the difierence, though we have 
 no name for them. 
 
 Q. Are they like Colum'"'" River salmon ? — A. No, none are like Columbia salmon. 
 
 Q. What is the distinctive difference ? — A. Well, you can only see the difference — 
 they are much larger over there than here. 
 
 Q. And are thei-e any white .salmon in the Columbia River : — A. No, all are red— 
 the question of white salmon was never raised. 
 
 Q. And here 75 per cent are white, taking the season through? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Which are more merchantable? — A. Oh, the white are worthless. 
 
 Q. What are done with them?— A. Oh, Indians take all they want, and the rest 
 are thrown away. 
 
 Q. And the probable weight of these? — A. About twelve pounds. 
 
202 
 
 MARINE AND FtSHBRIKS. 
 
 Q. Why (]t» you Hiiy "diHereiit species" here? — A. You c-un sj'c the diflTen'nce — 
 in tim hir^t'f ones the distances between the extreme of the hack and the belly are 
 greater than otiiers. 
 
 i}. Tlie early i-uns of tlieni liere in April and May, when tlu-y come in here (irst, 
 as regards Havoiir of Hesli, ai-e they equal t(t Columl)ia Hiver salmon?- -A. Oh,, yes ; 
 <M|ually as go(»d. In spring time they can be eaten, but not in sununer. I have been 
 made sick myself; but the red ones are always good. 
 
 Q. Tt is remarkal)le. We have been asked by many to breed s|)riMg salmon, but 
 you say they are not fit to eat? A. Kxcept in the spring ; but then there tivi' no other 
 fish in the market. 
 
 Q. And if other tish were in the market tlu^y could not take at all? -A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. What run of tish comes after the sockeyes? A. The cohoes, but they are 
 worthless. 
 
 At tliis point of the examination, Capt. Cooper stated that his business engage- 
 ments would prevent liim from continuing his evidence at present and recjuestetl that 
 he might be allowed to continue his evidence at 3 p.m. Uotli Connnissi(mers as.senting, 
 the witness left the stand. 
 
 Mr. Cftmniissioner Higgins arrived and took his seat as one of the Commi.ssion, at 
 11.30 a.m. 
 
 THOMAS CUM M INGHAM, a native of Ireland, living in British Columbia 
 since 18")9, a resident of New Westminster and describing himself as a fruit-grower, 
 stock-breeder and farmer, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do you wi.sh to make any .statement ?- A. I feel deeply interested in this 
 • [uestion of disposing of the offal, and the welfare of the fisheries generally. T ditler 
 from all the evidence I have heard as to its value as a fertilizer — I think it very 
 valuable. 
 
 Q. For the puipose of producing cereals or fruit ? A. Fruit (^specially and in the 
 event of our going into be(!t-rt)ot growing. 
 
 Q. Your knowledge — is it from experiment or on good authority ? -A. Oh, I have 
 the best of authority. 
 
 Q. What effect has it from a sanitary stand-point ? — A. I should think it very good. 
 
 Q. From what cause — its putridity or offensiveness of smell— or does it create 
 disease ? — A. F think it apt to create disease. 
 
 Mi{. Hi<i(;iNS. — Not what you have heard, Mr. Cunningham, we don't want hear- 
 say evidence. 
 
 Bt/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What of your knowledge, do you i hink it creates disease ? — A. Well, I think 
 it would taint the water and I know if "1 lodges upon the beach or shores it becomes 
 offensive and deleterious to health. 
 
 By Mr. Higtjins : 
 
 Q. That is your opinion — have you any practical knowledge ? — A. Well, that is 
 my t>pinion — I know it has a bad effect upon dairy stock if they drink the water. T 
 was through Chilliwhack and through Sunias last fall and saw hundreds of thousands 
 of dead tish there. 
 
 Q. And is there no way of stopping fish from dispersing themselves dead in the 
 river? — A. There is a wi y of catching them and grinding them as a fertilizer. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. AVhat is the effect on dairy stock ? — A. Well, the cows drink the water and it 
 taints the butter. 
 
BRITISH COLUMIHA FISHERY COMMlHSION. 
 
 203 
 
 Q. Havo you iiny knowU-d^^e ot' its effects on the milk ? A. I have he: nl fiwmers 
 say so. 
 
 (.^. How does it effect hogs -does it show the effects in tlie pork ? A. Yea ; it gets 
 uinnaiketahle. 
 
 y. Then as a fertilizer ami oil — you think the fertiliz«'r would he valuable for 
 agricultural purposes? A. Certainly; there is tish guano made in Norway sells in 
 London for £(5 to £10 sterling a ton. 
 
 <.^. Ifave you had any trial of its effects as a fertilizer hero ? — A. I have seen it 
 tried in the raw state. 
 
 y. Have you used any nuide in the factory here ? — A. No ; T have not. There is 
 an unfortunate opinion prevailing that our lands in this district an; sufficiently rich as 
 to not need a fertilizer it arose because this neighhouthood is \vry rich — but in other 
 places it is not so there Mr. Higgins will know in Vancouver Island the trees an 
 withering for want of a fertilizer. I think the fei't;I;>.ei' would i>e useful for both 
 agricultural and horticultural purpo.ses, and when we <:et the knowledge how to make it 
 properly we will ship it away to England and other places — but we don't need to ship 
 it -we need it here. I e.vpect in a few years from now I will be alile to use oO tons of 
 fish guano a year, and if we go into the raisijig of beet -root wo will want every pound 
 we t!an get. 
 
 Q. If it were made, you would cotisume a lot of it and you think others would do 
 the same? A. Yes, 1 would and I think others would. I think too that steps should 
 be taken immediately to utilize the humpback salmon — they are poi.soning the sji r;'! 
 livers and streams in this country and it is a very small matter if bins were made. A 
 ton of green fish will make 400 pounds of dry fertilizer. 
 
 Mr. Hi<;<iiNS. - Suppose this offal, Mr. Cunningham, were towed out into deep cur- 
 rent of the river would it taint the water as now? — A. Oh, no ; T think it would not, 
 l)ut I think it would be a gross waste of very valuable material. 
 
 ]\[r. Wir.MOT. - AVell, then, why don't you go into this profitable business ? — A. 
 Well, that is not my V)usiness I am a consumer. 
 
 Mr. Hui(3i\s. — Well, but we will admit then! is no way of utilizing that offal? — 
 A. Jiut, r don't think so. 
 
 Mr. Hidciixs. — But suppose there is no way and there is no factory -what would 
 you do with it? — A. T think T would tow it out to deep water that would be better 
 than leaving it around the canneries. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(!iNS.- About these hundie«ls and hundrqds of salmon you see in Chilli- 
 whack — they would taint the water too, would they not ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And for years back this has been done ?- -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And if there had been no natural law to thin them out they would have choked 
 up the river long ago with their numbers would they not ? — A. AVell, I have no doubt 
 that much of the land in this district has been enriched by dead salmon. 
 
 /)'y 3fr. Hi'jyins : 
 
 Do you think that salmon die after spawning?— A. AVell, a great many. 
 
 Q. Do you think, with the late Mr. Mowat, that 25 per cent get back to sea?— A. 
 Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. What do you know of this sickness said to be derived from offal ? — A. T know 
 nothing except what T have heard from Delta and other places. 
 
 Q. Well, but that might have comefrom other causes? — A. Yes, it might. 
 
 Q. Have you any practical suggestion to make for disposing of this offal ? — A. I 
 don't know. 
 
 Q. Has anything been tried ? — A. I think there is an oil factory down the river. 
 
 Q. Using offal?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You say dead fish at Chilliwhack have an effect on the milk ? — A. Y''es. 
 
 Q. Do you throw away the milk ? — A. Oh, no ; I do know this, that where hogs 
 pasture and eat these fish we keep them for another year to get rid of this fishy taste. 
 
204 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. And if they ate many dead fish, you would have " fishy " pork ? — A. Yes, I 
 suppose you would. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Have you seen this article in the " Colonist," Mr. Hig<i;ins, about 
 the analysis of samples of ofFal ? — ^A. Mr. Higgins. — Oh, yes ; T have seen that. 
 
 Mr. CuNNlNiiiiAM. — Tf you wish to see authorities as to value of fertilizers I have 
 them here. — A. Mr. Higgins. ^ — Oh, no ; never mind — we know it is a good thing, but 
 the question is simply how to do it with success. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Q. Have you anything to make mention of, with regard to the 
 limitation of nets? — A. Licenses ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Q. Yes.^ — A. 1 think it would be unfair if you place cannery men at 
 the mercy of the fishermen. I saw the effects of that on the Colundjia River. T had a 
 friend who dropped $17o,000 just througii such a thing. 
 
 ]\Ir. WiLMOT.-Q. Have fishermen control of the Columbia? — A. They had then — 
 the fishermen fonied the price of fish up to 60 and (io cents. 
 
 Mr. Hicir.ixs. — 75 one year — T had a friend who lost money too. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Q. Would it be e(iuital)le if each fisherman, a bona fdf British sub- 
 ject, should be entitled to one license? — A. It depends on the number applying. 
 
 Q. Would you limit the number ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. AVhat number should that limit 1)e ? — A. I think TjOO about right. 
 
 Q. The fishermen say they cannot get licenses to fish and consetpiently are labour- 
 ing undei- difficulties — now with 500 that is the case. You are not prepared to say 
 then, whether tliey should all practical hima Jide British subjects be given a 
 license or not? ~~A. Well, no : I think the number should be limited to a certain number 
 — they should not be transferable by any means. 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. Q. AVhat are your views on the Hunday close season? Should Sun- 
 day be kept ;is a close season ? A. Yes, 1 believe in the observation of the Sabbath — 
 I think when we ti-y to amend the Divine Law we get into difiiculties. 
 
 0. You mean the whole of Sunday ? -A. Yes, 1 mean the whole of it — I don't see 
 any reason why a man should fish on Sunday night when other men don't do other 
 work on that day. 
 
 Q. What are the effects of tiie hatciiery on the river? — A. Decidedly beneficial T 
 think. 
 
 Q. With regard to your views on licenses — you appear to be an intelligent man — 
 do you favour any discrimination of fees in obtaining licenses — siiould the fee be alike, 
 to fisiiermen and canners ? — A. I think there should l)e uniformity. 
 
 Q. AVitli regard to tliis river and all other riveis in the Province ? — A. Well, I 
 think in older to permit the northern rivers to compete with Alaska a discrimination 
 should be made in tiieir favour. Tlie northern coast is dangerous to navigation and tiie 
 reverses heavier. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of tlie (juantities of fish taken by canneries and their 
 size? — A. Not very much. 
 
 ^fr. Hi(i(!iNs. — (.^. What is your opinion as regards the increase or decrease of fish 
 in the river .' Do you think the river over-fished? -A. T think it has been, but the 
 hatcheries T tliiiik have supi)lied the difierence. 
 
 Q. Then you think with a hatchery, intelligently carried out, tliere is no danger of 
 decrease of the fish .' — A. No, I think not. 
 
 Mr. AN'iLMOT. -Q. And if tlie iiatchery produces so many more fish tlie iiatchery is 
 making more offal. (Laughter.) -A. Well, we will get more fertilizers. I do hope the 
 (jovernmeiit can do .something to utilize tlie.se. humpbacks — anvthiii!' that can 1)6 done 
 
 ipi 
 
 to utilize these fish and make them into fertilizei's would be a good thing. 
 
 (^ But should not this offal Ite utilized first ?- A. Well, I don't know — I think 
 one just as bad as another. Tf any gentlemen will pay a visit to Chilliwhack, they will 
 .see for th"iiiselves. 
 
 Mr. Hi<i(iiNs. — Mr. Chairman, has any medical evidence been taken as to the 
 ^'fleets of this offal? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Yes ; we have had medical evidence. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 205 
 
 •egard to tlie 
 
 tain number 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS. — Well, I think subp(enas should be at once issued to all medical men 
 within reach and get their opinions on this matter — also the mortuary statistics and 
 record of deaths, iS:c. 
 
 Mr. Akmstuonc;. — Yes ; I think the city health ofticei-s should be summoned, too. 
 You cannot summon a man and get him hen^ this afternoon — you cannot expect a man 
 to be here before Monday. 
 
 Mr. HiG(;iNS. — Well, I cannot wait here for all time -I think you should get these 
 men. We have lots of evidence waiting in Victoria and I must go back Monday. 
 
 Mr. WiiiMOT. — Well, if you will just give the names of persons you want, we will 
 try and get them. 
 
 Ml'. HKiOiNS. -Well, Mr. Armstrong knows them — he knows all the doctors in 
 town. 
 
 Mr. Akmstkont;.— Then you think we should prove it is not healthy. 
 
 Mr. HicciiNs. — Whether it is unhealthy. 
 
 Mr. Armstronci. — But it is not health alone —it is also the destruction of a lot of 
 good material, that otherwise could be made use of. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, summonses have to be signed by all three Connnissioners, but 
 we have not used any owing to your (to Mr. Higgins) absence, but as the Board is now 
 full, and it is desirable to issue summonses we might send ^Ir. McXab down to ask any 
 one you would like to be here. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i<iiNS. — Well, 1 think Dr. Wilson should be summoned. 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMOT. — Do you think that it is necessary to issue a subpicna to Dr. Wilson? 
 
 Mr. Ahmstron<;. — I do. 
 
 ^Ir. Haccart. — I do. 
 
 A summons was thereupon issued to Dr. Wilson to appear before the Commission 
 at 10 a.m. on the 29th February at Xew Westminster; and at the re(iuest of Mr. 
 Higgings, letters were written retjuesting the attendance of Drs. De ^\'olfe Smith, 
 Fagan and ^IcLean before the Commission at 2 p.m. this day. 
 
 The Commission adjoured at 12.30 p.m. 
 
 Nkw Westminstkr, 27th February, 1892. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The Commission re-assembled at the Court House at 2 p.m. Full Board present. 
 CAPTAIN COOPER, being present, was permitted to resume his evidence. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you r:ave your opinion in regard to offal being non-injurious, and that it 
 might be made .',s(' of beneficially by making it into oil and fertilizer? — A. To make 
 oil. I don't si!e my way clear to make fertilizer. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the injury of saw-<lust? A. No direct know- 
 ledge, but I think it would be injurious for this reason — I have often noticed fish 
 nibbling at any little thing in the river - I dont think that was with salmon the saw- 
 dust in going into a fish's gills would lodge in passing out. A salmon is a very delicate 
 fish and I have known salmon to die aftei- slight injury. 
 
 Q. You have seen saw-dust in their gills ?--A. T ha\e not seen it, but I think if it 
 lodged it would injure fish. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — I may say that it is a fallacy which has nuich predominated in the 
 eastern provinces that saw-dust killed fish by getting in their gills ; but we never find 
 saw-dust in the gills of living fish, but when fish are d(>ad, saw-dust may get in their 
 gills, but never in the gills of living fish. The saw-dust is injuriou- by stopping vege- 
 table growth in the beds of rivers, I'irc, and that is where the injury ccnnes in, and 
 though salmon may go through a lot'(.f saw-dust, they would never get it in their gills. 
 
 Mr. HiOfiiNS. — But this witness thinks saw-dust does injury to fish — he thinks it 
 gets in theii" gills. 
 
206 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 m 
 
 I 
 
 By Mr. Wilmo* : 
 
 Q. What do you think of the limitation of nets ?— A. I think the present size of 
 net sufficient. 
 
 Q. But the number of licenses given to fishermen and canners ? — A. I think myself 
 that the licenses can be readjusted — I think it is not fair and equal as it stands at 
 present — the canners have almost enough licenses to get along with Indian labour alone, 
 and an independent fisherman cannot get the chance of making anything at all, except 
 in a poor season, when the independent fisherman is much in demand. I think the 
 canners might be allowed one-half the numljer they require. The condition of things 
 is quite different here to what prevails on the Columbia River. There they are white 
 fishermen, but here it is not the same. I think if a limit is placed on the river, the 
 canners should be given about one-half and the independent fishermen the other half — 
 I think that is but fair. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — But would you give one license only? — A. One license —not more. 
 
 Q. What number would you give to canners, then, on the supposition that there 
 was no limit? — A. Oh, as many as they like. 
 
 Q. If one license were given to each ho7ia fide fisherman, there should be also a 
 limit, should there not, to the licenses given to canners ? — A. If licenses are unlimited 
 to fishermen, they should also be unlimited to canners. 
 
 Q. Then, would it not have the same effect then as that which you have referred 
 to, viz. : that one would master the other, if unlimited to canners? The fishenn 'n :^nly 
 get one — would not the fishermen be kept out of service ?— A. Well, I don'u lo^>'" fi- ... 
 in that light ; my object is to say if we give licenses in unlimited numbers w "^ her, ', 
 we must also do the same to canners. 
 
 Q. Then, unlimited to canners? — A. I would say, if cannfers are limited, aiso limit 
 the number of licenses issued on the river, as well — for instance, if 600 are enough 
 for the river, give canners one-half and fishermen the other half — if the department 
 considers 600 too small, give both parties the same, no matter what number. 
 
 Q. But if 600 was the limit and 300 the number given to the canneries, there 
 might be enough canneries put up to make it almost useless to continue work ? — A. 
 Well, that is a matter which the canneries would arrange among themselves, for no 
 business man would go into a business unless he thought he would get a license. 
 
 Mr. HiGoixs. — Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that Captain Cooper 
 might give way for Mr. INIcNeely, a gentleman who has come here to give evidence and 
 has but a short time at his disposal — Capt. Cooper can come again on the stand, if he 
 will be good enough to give way for the present. — A. Oh, certainly, 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, then Capt. Cooper we will conclude with you afterwards. 
 
 THOMAS McNEELY, a resident of Ladner's Landing, and in British Columbia 
 for twenty-nine or thirty years, describing himself as a merchant, was then duly s\\ orn. 
 
 Mr. McNEKriV.— What I came here for is to correct a statement made in the papc" 
 — I will show it to you if you wish to see it. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. A statement made by yourself sir 1 — A. No, by another party. The witness 
 here read an extract from the report of the proceedings of the Fisheries Commission in 
 the lVftcs-Advi'r(is''r, of '27th February, 1892, re evidence given by Mr. W. Arthur on 
 the previous day. (Continuing) T wish to state that T did not buy this oil. I tried 
 this oil in 1890 — I used a Vmrrel or so — last year T didn t use any of any account. Tt 
 is not good as a lubricator and T have no use for it. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Ar))istrong : 
 
 Q. You didn't buy any of it in 1891 ?— A. I did not. 
 
 J}y Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Did you sell any of it'! — A. No, I did not. I just w vitcd to cuvvw-t that state- 
 ment — that is my reason for coming here. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 207 
 
 sent size of 
 
 link myself 
 
 t stands at 
 
 lour alone, 
 
 all, except 
 
 think the 
 
 I of things 
 
 are white 
 
 river, the 
 
 her half — 
 
 -not more. 
 :hat there 
 
 1 be also a 
 unlimited 
 
 p referred 
 rmni :^nly 
 
 loo'- fl.' xL 
 
 ^••■he., , 
 
 ai3o limit 
 re enough 
 'pai'tment 
 
 ies, there 
 
 ork ?— A. 
 
 s, for no 
 
 e. 
 
 n Cooper 
 
 lence and 
 
 nd, if he 
 
 terwards. 
 
 Columbia 
 ly sw orn. 
 the paptr 
 
 ! Witness 
 ission in 
 rthur on 
 I tried 
 >unt. T) 
 
 i 
 
 lat state- 
 
 ly Mr. Jlif/gins : 
 
 Q. Perhaps Mr. McNeely can give some views about the health of the community 
 down the river? — A. There were son\e deaths from typhoid fever down there last sum- 
 mer during the fishing season. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Have you formed any views of the probable reasons for this sickness 1 — A. I 
 have not. 
 
 Q. Have you ever drank the water 1 — A. No. 
 
 Q. Why don't you drink it ? — A. I don't like drinking water at all. 
 
 Jii/ Jlr. lligyhis : 
 Q. Does Mr. Ladner drink much of it? (Laughter.) — A. I don't know. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q, What is the impression of the injury derived from ofFal there ? — A. Well, I 
 could hardly tell that. 
 
 By Mr. J/ig/jins : 
 
 Q. Have you ever known of any case of illness traced to drinking Fraser Kiver 
 water? — A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Did you ever live in a large city ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Any town where large streams ran by ? — A. No. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong ; 
 
 Q. Do you think oil from oifal is as good as dog-fish oil ? — A. Not for lubricating 
 purposes. 
 
 By Mr. Iliggins : 
 
 Q. Do you know of anything as to its use as a fertilizer ? — A. I believe it is con- 
 sidered good as a fertilizer. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. For general purposes 1 — A. Well, I think more for vegetables. 
 
 Q. Is there a ready sale for fertilizer ? — A. Well it has never been introduced 
 enough — I could not tell. 
 
 Q. But it has been used 1 — Yes, small quantities of it, but as to whether it would 
 pay, I don't think any one has experience enough to tell. 
 
 By Mr, Iliggina : 
 
 Q. There are quite a number of Chinamen emyloyed during the canning season 
 about Ladner's Landing ?— A. Quite a number. 
 
 Q. Could their labour be dispensed with ? — A. I don't know how. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Could they not get white men? — A. T don't think they could. 
 
 Q. Nor Indians ? — A. I don't think they could. 
 
 Q. And they consider Chinese labour most effective ? — A. I think so. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do you think every hotiajidf fisherman and liritish subject should get a licen.se 
 to Hsh ? — A. Well, I could not say — I never paid any heed to it. 
 
 Q. But should resident tishermen, in your opinion, be placed in such a positi<m so 
 they could get a license? - A. F think so. 
 
 Q. If that were generally known, would it add to immigrants coming to the 
 country? — A. Well, I don't know — ^there might be fishei-men enough in the country to 
 take all the licenses they could use. 
 
 ■J; 
 iii 
 
208 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Any inducement would be good that would induce immigrants to come and take 
 the place of Chinamen, would it not? — A. Well, yes, if they could give labour when 
 they got here. 
 
 Q. But would it be an inducement, if an immigrant knew he could get a license 
 if he wanted <me? — A. Yes, T think so. 
 
 ^Ir. AfiLMOT. -Very well, that will do, sir; unless, gentlemen, you have something 
 further to ask the witness. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTRO\G.-^No, nothing further. 
 
 Mr. HniciNS. — Oh, no; that will do. 
 
 til 
 
 W 
 
 ill 
 
 C.VPT. COOPER was recalled and continued his e\idence. 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 (}. AVe were last speaking something al)Out licenses, 1 think? -A. I stated that T 
 had made application for a license — one license to tish salmon- -that is, one on .any river 
 on which I wished to go — I wanted one here, and if I went to the Skeena or Naa.s, I 
 wanted one for each river, and in each case I was refused. 
 
 Q. But if you gnt a license for the waters of British Columbia, would not that 
 co\er all? -,\. Yes, 'i< t' v- were licenses of that description ; but T was willing to pay 
 for a license on each riv 
 
 Q. And you could gti ither? — A. I could get none. The only reason that was 
 f'iven me was that I was well enf)Ugli otF and h<ad a steamer and had no need to do 
 fishing. T told Mr. Mowat that was the ^■ery reason I built the boat, but 1 had to go 
 towing, and afterwards sold the boat. 
 
 Q. You attribute it to this cause that you could not get a license to fish? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You were away for a season and then could not get licenses to fish? — A. Yes, 
 you see some seasons are poorer than others, and then I Avent steam-boating. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Higtjins : 
 
 Q. Were you willing to go in the deep-sea fisheries, too ? — A. Yes, I was ready for 
 all kinds. 
 
 Bj) Mr. Arnistrony : 
 
 Q. But there was nothing to prevent you going out in the deep sea ? — A. Yes, but 
 that is only in winter ; T wanted to fish in the rivers. The second year I had to go 
 towing and eke out the expenses in that way, instead of fishing, as I wanted to. I 
 considered that it would ra»t justify me in equipping a boat for deep-sea fisheries, unless 
 I could fish anywhere F chose. 
 
 By Mr. Wi/niot : 
 
 (}. Your view of the deep-sea fisheries is within three miles of the coast? — A. Yes, 
 certainly, and J also asked Mr. Mowat if he would communicate with the department 
 anil let me stock a river and then let me have it for five or ten years ; but he would not 
 do it for me. 
 
 Q. And did it never go any further? — A. Well, that is what T want to know — if 
 he did not I want to make that application now. My reason for wanting ") years is that 
 the time for the sockeye returning to spawn is from .3 to 4 years, so if T placed a limit 
 of 10 years I would only then have 6 years to fish. 
 
 Q. You spoke of being on the Columbia — are there fish hatcheries there ?— A. I 
 have read that there are — tliere were not when I was there. 
 
 Q. And you draw the conclusion that by starting a hatchery — ? — A. I didn't 
 intend starting a hatchery but wished to stock it after a plan of my own. 
 
 Q. Will you not tell us this and give us information ? — A. Well, that is a secret — 
 I would rathei' not tell that. I wished only to have the privilege of controlling the 
 fish I had hatched out myself. I wanted to stock the stream for myself and then after 
 my time it would belong to the Government. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 209 
 
 Q. Then you intciiclecl hiitehiny rish ? — A. Yes. Oh, well, it is the same way — 
 tliere is no secret about that. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. I think it would be well if Mr. Cooper would give us this information. — A. 
 Well, will this information go through the Commission to the Government 1 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. — Every .syllaljle will go to the Government along with the report 
 tVom the Commissioners, etc. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(!i\s. — Oh, well, if Capt. Cooper has some process of his own I dont think 
 lie slu)ul<l Ije pressed for it. The last question you asked ]Mr. 3IcXeelly — about ."500 
 licenses being issued and about hurting their business — I said I thought it was equitable 
 if a limit was placed on the number of licenses on the river, if fishermen should have 
 half and canners the other half. I meant to say that if not enough fishermen to take 
 them up the canners should take up the balance. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. If 300 were given to canners and 300 to fishermen it would bring them down 
 to 15 licenses each — i.e., the canners — now, if there were more canneries built it would 
 bring down the number to even less. — A. Well, the business will adjust itself — no can- 
 neries will be built unless they are going to pay. In a poor season, 600 boats will be 
 well enough. 
 
 Q. Then you think the river can be over-tished 1 — A. Yes : the river can be fished 
 nut. 
 
 Q. AVhat is the experience on the Columbia River ? — A. Well, the boats were so 
 thick — there were 1,000 boats on the river — the boats on the bar were so thick that 
 hardly a salmon could get by. 
 
 Q. Would you consider that an over-fished place — too nuich fishing at the mouth 
 of the river? — ^A. Yes ; I think fishing should be kept within Garry Point and the bar 
 Dutside in this river. In three seasons over there after they got so many l)oats — the year 
 l)efore I went there they had probal>ly i)00 or COO boats at the outside — that was in 
 70 or '77 I fished first — and they doubled the nundier of boats. Fish were fairly 
 jilentiful, but after that — well, the result will show — there are nearly a (juarter of the 
 (?anneries there now as were there some years ago. 
 
 Q. Is the mouth of the Columbia River much the same as the Fraser / — A. Oh, 
 yes : except that the Columbia Rivei- is on a nmch larger scale. 
 
 Q. If 300 or 400 boats were fishing at the mouth of the river here, it would be in 
 proportion to the 1,000 boats at the mouth of the Columbia? — A. Oh, yes : it would be 
 a great deal more. 
 
 Q. And are you satisfied that too uuich fishing at the bar is prejudicial to fish? — 
 A. Yes, it is, I have observed since I have been here that fish have run later and the 
 quality of fish has depreciated very much. 
 
 Q. Then do I understand you that the proportion of fish caught in the later sea- 
 sons — probably due to over- fishing — is not in as good condition for canning as those 
 t'arlier ? — A. No, they are not — I think they are jjutside too long as they come later — 
 1 think fishing on the bar has caused that — I would not feel sure about that only that 
 I have noticed that after the close season — Saturday and Sunday — ^the fish afterwards 
 come in in greater abundance and drop off at the latter end of the week. If it was 
 only on Sunday night when fishing commences I would say it was because the fish have 
 i-onie in Sunday, but I have noticed they run thick on ^londay and then run thinner 
 ♦lirough the week. 
 
 Q. It is you think the constant fishing at the mouth keeps fish from coming into the 
 liver and that exces.sive fishing there would more or less affect the general fisheries of 
 the river ? — A. Ye.s, I think so. 
 
 (J. And do you say then that your views are that excessive fishing there has caused 
 a tontlency to have later runs of fish in the river afterwards / — A. T tiiink so— they are 
 getting later all the time. 
 
 lOc-14 
 
 'i!i- 
 
m 
 
 III 
 
 r 
 
 210 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. The earlier fish come in and are caught and that late fish are in worse condition 
 than earlier ones ? — A. Yes : I would not undertake to say that in one or two years oi' 
 more — ^I would nut say fish would come in earlier — it would take time — it is gradual 
 — we would not see the eflFect in one or two years. 
 
 Q. Then that would be apparently boi-ne out — all the canners say they would desire 
 fish for canning from the first run ? — A. Do you mean that fish from the first run should 
 be hatched out 1 
 
 Q. That fish from the first run should be taken and their eggs hatched out 1 — A. 
 Oh, yes ; I would agree with that because the first fish in are the n>ost favourable by far. 
 
 Q. Is it your experience that sockeye are the most valuable ? — A. Yes, it is sockeye 
 we are discussing. I am more in favour of hatching out red spring salmon if possible 
 for the reason they bring more money into the country, because a fishermen catches a 
 spring salmon and gets from two bits to -50 cents and that money is left here while the 
 money for canning mostly goes out of the country. The money a Chinaman gets we 
 get no benefit from that — then money goes for tins and very little is left here. 
 
 Q. Then you think shipping fresh fish is more desirable than the canning business 1 
 — A. Yes, certainly ; it is a question which will benefit the community more and if we 
 can get a 81 left for each fish instead of a few cents it is so much l)etter. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say the catching of fish for shipment fresh would be 
 much more desirable for the employment of white labour than canning 1 — A. Oh, yes ; 
 tliere would be no use for Chinamen there. 
 
 Q. And no offal ? — A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. AVhile one-third of the sockeye goes in the river? — A. Yes, about that. 
 
 Q. Do you know what freezers get for their fish ? — A. Yes, from 10 • > 15 cents per 
 pound. 
 
 Q. And how much do canners get ? — A. Well, I think all the canneryman gets the 
 benefit of is 2 cents, probably not more. 
 
 Q. Do you think the freezing of sockeye fish would be profitable? — A. Probably 
 not because there are such great numbers we could not get away with them. There is 
 a limited market for fresh fish while there is practically an unlimited one for canned 
 goods. I don't wish to prejudice the department against the canneries as against the 
 freezers, but I simply state what I think would be most beneficial to the country. 
 
 Q. What advantage has a cannery where a canner has a boat with four men and 
 fishermen have but two ? -A. Oh, outside fishermen will catch more fish every day. 
 
 Q. Why ? — A. Well, for the simple reason that the fisherman gets so nmch for every 
 fish he gets while the other gets 82 a day. I know all about it — I have been there. I 
 have had many camps and have had to fire men who were engaged and had sold their 
 fish to fishermen. 
 
 Q. If two men fish twenty-four hours they would in all probability be likely to 
 catch more than two men would in twelve hours ? — A. Well, yes ; of course — it looks 
 th.it way I know. 
 
 By Mr. Armstromj : 
 
 Q. But as a rule the men who fish for themselves fish more hours than those em- 
 ployed by the day ? — A. Yes, I have fished for the twenty-four hours myself. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 Q. You would not be much use then to yourself or anybody else would you ? — A. 
 Well, I slept in the b<»at on the end of the net as it drifted down. 
 
 Q. "Well, if you have nothing further Capt. Cooper, I think that will do — I think 
 that we have gone pretty well over the ground. 
 
 Mk. THOMAS LADNER, of Ladner's Landing, B.C., who had previously given 
 .evidence before the commission requested permission to be heard further and was duly 
 sworn. 
 
 Mr. Ladner. — What I wish to say is this that in giving my evidence I went on to 
 say that I was simply representing the Wellington Cannery. I omitted to say that 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 211 
 
 with Mr. Laidlaw and otliers I represent seven canneries, and I wish to say that I re- 
 presented the seven canneries in uiy evidence. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And you are one of the representatives of a company with others of seven can- 
 neries? How many on the Fraser ? — A. Five, and one on the 8keena and one on the 
 Xaas. 
 
 Q. A company formed for nmtual interest ? — A. A con)pany formed for mutual 
 interest. 
 
 Q. A syndicate ? — A. No, merely our own capital. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Ladner, it has been stated here that you had principal charge of the 
 oil factory for this company — now, would you kindly state to the commission the 
 capacity of the canneries and the quantity of oil, ike, and what you did with the offal ? 
 — A. Well, this year according to instructions from the department, or the representa- 
 tives of the department here, we went to the expense of building an oilery at a cost of 
 83,000 or $4,000. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that the department asked you to build an oil 
 factory? — A. No, but the Government said they intended to enforce the law. 
 
 Q. That was in existence? — A. Well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't read 
 the hiw, as a rule — we leave that to persons who are paid to tell us. 
 
 Q. Did you have to ask that it should not be enforced ? I may say that the min- 
 ister rescinded it for the one year only, therefore last year the statute would hold good, 
 and the law should have been enforced. — A. I understand it in this way, from the man 
 who had charge of the business here — Mr. Mowat — that they were going to enforce it, 
 and we went to work to provide against it, though much to our regret. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Did they enforce it ? — A. No, they did not. We complied with it, while every- 
 one else was allowed to go f i-ee. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. What did you do ? — A. We built an oilery at a cost of $4,000. 
 Q. Did you make anything ? — A. No, we did not ; and yet Mr. Wilmot wants us 
 to buUd another. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. No; I may mention that what I said was that your Provincial Government 
 here were inducing Crofters to come here, and that a company was b^.ag formed for 
 disposing of fish offal by erecting oil factories, &c., and what I also said was that from 
 accounts giveii by scientists and others, it would be beneficial for these projects to be 
 started? — A. You are speaking on theory, Mr. Wilmot. I am speaking from practice. 
 During my experience, Mr. Wilmot, I have found a man can make any amount of money 
 on paper, but when it comes down to practice, it is a very different thing — that is the 
 trouble with your scientific men : on paper they are all right, but when it comes down to 
 jii-actical application and hard facts, they are wanting. Now, youi" scientists have 
 spoken on paper about making this offal into guano, and that it was worth so much 
 money — $30 a ton, or even more, I think they said. Now, we have manufactured this 
 fertilizer, but it is worthless. We are willing to take $20 a ton, yes, anything for it, to 
 get rid of it. I have heard parties state here that the fertilizei- could be shipped and 
 the oil sold, but I am speaking with practical knowledge acquired from practical 
 experience in the matter. 
 
 10c— 14i 
 
212 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 W 
 
 u 
 
 Hif 
 
 lii/ Mr. Hiijyins : 
 
 Q. Have you ever pliinteil it— ever tried it in the yi-ouiul ? — A. Tt has heen tried — 
 Will Rich tried it at the Landing in a .small way, l)ut he did not find nuich out. 
 
 Q. Well, you have good land there, Mr. Ladner. Suppose it was put on the poor 
 land ? — ^A. Well, perhaps it would be good there, but it did not seem to make any 
 difl'erenoe. We are ijuite willing to sell it to any one very cheap — to any one that wants 
 to experiment on it. T am going to send some to Westminster for sale and am going to 
 have some tried this year. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Did you make any calculation at that factory what it would be to you as a 
 fertilizei'? — X. No ; we reckoned the guano as nothing — that is our loss. 
 
 Q. Well, if guano is worth !?34 a ton down east, would it take all that to take it 
 there ? — A. Well, there is no (juery at all, because you cannot reduce it to such a dry 
 state that you could take it there — the crews would not take it, because there would be 
 such a stench nobody could remain near it. 
 
 Q. T suppose you know what coal oil is ? — A. Oh yes, coal oil is the very essence of 
 Eau de Colonge compared with the fertilizer. (Laughter). 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. T see Dr. Fagan is here now, and as he may have very little time we might go 
 on with him, if31r. Ladner will give way — no doubt he has covered what he desired to 
 say ? — A. Oh yes, I am willing t<» make way for the doctor — if there is any other mat- 
 ter occurs to me T can let you know of it again. 
 
 Mr. Ladner thereupon retired. 
 
 I It I 
 
 CHARLES FAGAN, M.D., of Xew Westminster, a native of Ireland, living in 
 British Columbia about five years, and practising medicine in Xew Westminster and its 
 surroundings, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins: 
 
 Q. I would like to ask Dr. Fagan whether he is aware of any bad effect among 
 his patients from drinking Fraser River water ? — A. I think so. 
 Q. Is it marked? — ^A. Yes, decidedly marked. 
 Q. In what way ? — A. Typhoid fever, and it is increasing every year. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot :' 
 
 Q. Do many cases prove fatal f — A. Yes they are the worst cases we have in this 
 province. 
 
 Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. You say many prtjve fatal / — A. Yes, a fair proportion. 
 
 Q. Traced directly to the water of the Fraser River? — A. Yes, that was my 
 opinion. 
 
 Q. Any cases on the higher levels ? — A. Xo. none. 
 
 Q. And during the fishing season? — A. Yes, during the fishing season. 
 
 Q. X<jt from waters, etc., around their own doors ? — A. Xo, not that I am awareof. 
 
 Q. Does a stench arise from cess-pools av cisterns ? — A. I have not noticed that. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been up as far as Chilliwack? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you evei- observed the numbers of dead fish on the water there ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In great numbei-s ? — A. Yes, in great numbers. 
 
 Q. Thea a person drinking water impregnated with dead fish would have the same 
 case ? — Yes, but at the mouth of the river where the tide ebbs and flows and the ofFal 
 is left there and then the sun plays upon it, and of course the eiTect would be much 
 grentei". 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 213 
 
 going to 
 
 iv and its 
 
 among 
 
 Mr. ARMSTHoxfi. — We aie very much obliged to you doctor for coming here — we 
 don't want to detain you anv longer than necessary. There is nothing further I wish to 
 ask. 
 
 Mr. "WiLMOT. — Anything else Mr. Higgins ? 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiNs — Nothing more. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — That will do Dr. Fagan — thank you. 
 
 Mr. THOMAS LADXEH, of Ladner's Landing, who had given way for Dr. 
 Fagan, the previous witness, was now recalled. 
 
 Mr. L.VDNKH. — Dr. Iteiidiardt, of Vancouver, could give you imjiortant information 
 on that point — he is the doctor down at the Lauding — also Dr. Wilson. 
 
 By 3Ir. Armstrong : 
 
 We have summoned DiV Wilson. (Ctjntinuing.) Q. J want to tind out how many 
 ual Ions of oil you made and from how many canneiies you took otf'al ? — A. We made 
 al)out 100 barrels, each barrel containing on an average about foi'ty-five gallons — we took 
 offid from about IGO boats - five canneries. 
 
 Q. Did you get the whole of the offal from five canneries ? — A. Yes, we took all 
 except on one occasion — the Delta one day was staging the bins and the whole of the 
 offal drojiped down —with that one exception the whole of the ((ff'al was taken. 
 
 Q. You had the prodifct from five canneries in this factory to use and you produced 
 al)out 4,000 gallons? — A. Y'es, about that — 4,")00 gallons or 4,000 gallons. 
 
 Mr. Ai{M.STi{()N(i.-— Q. AVhat did you get for it per gallon ? — A. A portion of it sold 
 at 30 cents and some at 40 cents — average about 35 cents and half of it we have still 
 left. AVe are refining it and trying to make it better. 
 
 Mr. AV'iLJioT. — Q. To what class of individuals do you sell it — fi)r local or export 
 liuriio-ses? — A. Oh, well ; it is used for skid purposes. 
 
 Q. Do fai-mers use it ? — A. No, not at all — I have used it myself for lubricating 
 purposes but it is no use — it gums up. 
 
 Q. Is there any process of refining it for that purpose?- — A. No, T dont think so — 
 the more you refine it the worse it gets, unless you put something else with it — it seems 
 to get more gi.nnny — they u.se ci'ude oil for skid jnirposes where if you take the refined 
 article it will be no good. 
 
 Q. Then it is better in the crude state for skid purposes? — A. Well, I would say 
 that if we sold more. 
 
 t^. Ls your establishment a large one? — A. Pretty large last sunnner we had four 
 men employed. When you speak of actually running it, it would be necessary to have 
 foui' men, or fi\e, or perhaps six, and a steamer and two scows for every cannery. 
 
 Q. And that complement of work would lun the fact> ry satisfactorily as far as 
 (|uantity is concerned? — A. Yes, as far as (piantity is concerned, Imt not provide the 
 steamer you use, the more unsatisfactory it would l)e. 
 
 <J. If it \\juld piove satisfactory it would be a convenient way for canneries to get 
 rid of ofial? — A. By all means. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that the fertilizer produced is in a liquid state? — 
 A. Yes, it is not in a dry state. 
 
 Q. But it could lie dried? — A. I dont think so — it has been tried before at Bur- 
 lard Inlet and they could not make it dry enough to ship it. 
 
 Q. Would not the process of heat make it fit for shipment? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Could not it be sent in barrels or tanks? — A. Well, I don't know — it is not 
 exactly a liquid — it is a pulp, but the expense would be so great to make it fit for ship- 
 inent that it would be of no use. 
 
 (i. That is only theory too. — A. That is theory — paper. 
 
 Q. It is unfortunate, sir, your first trial in making oil ? — ^A. Very unfortunate. I 
 would recommend one more thing before T cput. Accoiding to my ideas of the matter 
 it would be well for us to have here ai)pointed in British Columbia a local Advisory 
 Board, and which would save the Government all the expense of sending our fiiend Air. 
 Wilmot over here, for I think if we had a Board here of go(xl level-headed men we could 
 look after the business better than at present. 
 
214 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 k 
 
 -in regard 
 
 CHARLES STANLEY, a native i.f England -18 years in Uritish Columbia, 
 residing along tlie Eraser River and describing himself as a tisherinan, was duly 8w«»rii. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well sir, what do you want to lay?— A. Well, I think the licenses are issued 
 very unfairly, and I think there should be a limit of licenses on the river — alnrnt GOO 
 but canneries to have half and the fishermen half - such freezers, such as P, -t and 
 others, should have no licenses, V)ecause they hand them over to the canneries in July. 
 
 Q. And if they don't hand tliem over? — A. They should then have licenses — they 
 should not be transferable in any way — they should be entitled to licenses if they deal 
 legitimately in rish, but selling them to canneries is wrong. 
 
 Q. Would one license be sufficient for each fisherman ? — A. Yes ; they are not 
 entitled to more. 
 
 y. And on those terms you would be satisfied ? — A. I would besatisfied- 
 to ofl'al — I think it should be taken from tlie canneries and thrown in salt water. 
 
 Q. Why do you come to that conclusion ?~ A. Because it remains around the 
 water and effects the water and you cannot drink it — it makes you .sick. 
 
 Q. Have you had any e.xperience of the effects of sickness from it ? — A. Yes ; it 
 made me sick several times. 
 
 Q. A permanent sickness or for a few days ? — A. For a few days. 
 
 Q. Have any of your neighbours been effected except for a few days ? — A. Well, 
 many have ))een affected— the Indians wont even take the water from the shores — they 
 go out in deep water and get it. The factory below is not built to get rid of it. 
 It could be easily taken out to the (Julf and other fish would soon eat it up. 
 
 Q. Have you ever fished under license ? — Y'^es, sir ; I have both fished and ran 
 camps for the canneries. T don't think Indians should have license.s. 
 
 Q. Why 1 — A. Because the Government gives them ploughs and cultivators, &c., 
 and allows them to fish all the year round — the (Government don't give me any ploughs 
 or cidtivators. 
 
 Q. The Indians, though, claim to be the rightful sons of the soil before you came 
 here ? — A. Yes ; but they have the right to fish the year round. 
 
 Q. What about the license fees? — A. I think fishermen should pay less than 
 cannerymen do. 
 
 Q. Why ? — A. Because the cannerymen employs daily labour and has the whole 
 profit out of the fish — he gets them cheaper. 
 
 Q. Have you ever fished on any other rivers ? — A. Yes ; on the Columbia and 
 Skeena. 
 
 Q. Should there be any difference between the fees on the Skeena and the Eraser ? 
 — A. No, nor in any other river in the province. 
 
 Q. How do you fish on the Columbia River — under license ? — A. No, sir ; I never 
 knew of any man having to get a license while I was there — you don't require any. 
 
 Q. Was your average catch of salmon pretty good ? — A. S(jme years it was — some 
 years it was not. 
 
 Q. What was your average catch under your license? — A. The average for those 
 three years was about 4,000 fish. 
 
 Q. And the average price you got for them ? — A. About 10 cents. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What are your ideas as to the close season- 
 day ? — A. 1 think that about right- 
 day morning to Sunday night. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. And suppose this offal was towed out into the current, would that relieve 
 you ? — A. No, I think if thrown anywhere in the river it would be taken back by the 
 tide. 
 
 Q. Would it not go out with the tide if thrown out— there is quite a current, you 
 know ? — A. No, I think the incoming tide would bring it all back. 
 
 -the prevention of fishing on Sun- 
 -I think I would let it remain as it is — from Satur- 
 
 ''■"^ ? •- 
 
Cdlumhiii, 
 luly sworn. 
 
 i (ire issued 
 bout GOO- 
 
 P "t iliul 
 ies in July. 
 n.seN— tlit'y 
 ' they (leal 
 
 ley are not 
 
 -in regard 
 iter, 
 round the 
 
 L Yes; it 
 
 -A. Well, 
 
 ores — they 
 
 rid of it. 
 
 i and ran 
 
 ators, &c., 
 ly ploughs 
 
 ! you came 
 
 less than 
 
 the whole 
 
 imbia and 
 
 le Fi-aser ? 
 
 ; I never 
 e any. 
 '^as — some 
 
 * for those 
 
 f on Sun- 
 )ni Satur- 
 
 t relieve 
 ;k by the 
 
 rent, you 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 By Mr. Witmot : 
 
 ns 
 
 Q. Does it effect your nets in fishing? — A. Yes, it gets in luuong the meshes and 
 gives a fellow much trouble to get it out. 
 
 Q. Do you ever get any entrails in the meshes ?- ~A. Yes, often. 
 
 Q. If all the oH'al were put in the river a large portion would be taken out by the 
 tide would it not . — A. Yes, a large portion would, but a lai-ge portion would come back 
 with the tide. 
 
 Q. And get in your nets ? — A. Yes, it gives a good deal of trouble getting them out. 
 
 By Mr. Higi/ins : 
 
 Q. Do you ever see any dead fish in the river? — A. Yes, a go(Ml many. 
 (I. Would they not be as much harm as offal ? A. Well, no doulit they would but 
 they should be taken out. 
 
 By Mr. Hvjgins : 
 
 Q. Tt may be an ol)ligation of the Government to take them out. Are fish float- 
 ing down in comparatively fresh state or not? — A. Sometimes they are — sometimes 
 they are not. 
 
 Q. Have you been far up river, Mr. Stanley?— A. Yes, I have been up the Har- 
 rison River. 
 
 Q. Many fish dead there? — A. Yes, I have seen many of them. 
 
 Q. Are fish in Harrison River the same as here and do they go back ? The late 
 Mr. Mowat said that only 25 per cent ever got back ? — A. The farther they go up of 
 course it is harder foi- them to get back. 
 
 Mr. Hl(i(iixs. — There must be a great number of those fish and they must have an 
 effect upon the river. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — AVell, they get them in the nets. 
 
 Mr. Hkjgins. — A few — ^but they dissolve, most all of them — the bodies of fish dis- 
 solve very fast in salt water— they soon disappear. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. What is the average weight oi fish yen catch ? — A. About six pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you any experience in seine fishing 1 — A. Yes, I have done some seine 
 fishing. 
 
 Q. Where?— A. In Mud Bay. 
 
 Q. Would you consider seine fishing or net fishing with flrift nets, more injurious ? 
 — A. I think a seine is — it would take more fish. 
 
 Q. Do you think seines should Vje allowed at the mouths of rivers? — A. No, sir ; I 
 think it decidedly injurious. 
 
 Q. Have you formed any ideas or views in regard to the hatchery on this liver ? — 
 A. I think the hatchery is good. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — ^Very well, sir ; that will do if you have nothing further to state. 
 
 Dr. W. DeW. smith, M.D., of New Westminster a native of Canada, and a 
 practising physician and surgeon in New AVestminster f/r ti years, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. The object. Dr. Smith, in having you come here is to ask you for your views 
 fi'om a sanitary stand-point in regard to offal being thrown into the river ? — A. Do you 
 mean as regards its effect upon the population 1 
 
 Q. On man, or on fish, as far as that is concerned.— A. Well, I hardly know just 
 where abouts to start — if y^m will just give me some idea. 
 
 Q. Well, are you aware that offal is thrown in from the canneries ? — A. Yes ; I 
 know that for a fact — I have seen it. 
 
 Q. Do you think the offal thrown in would effect the water in any shape ? — A 
 Yes ; I think it would — more particularly where there was slack current. 
 
21(i 
 
 MAUINE AND KISHKUIES. 
 
 i-i. When- tlit'io wiTc slack tiiirciits would it lie nunc i:ijtiri»>iis In the hciiltli ot 
 jM'rsKiis rcsiilciils .' A. Well, I nmy siiy tlicic is no uiici'rtiiiii'y as tn that ii lai',i;c 
 iminl>cr of anllu'ritics say that scwajic doi's luit t'lVt-rt thr walt'i- in tad stinic 
 jH'dplc say i>i>()|)lf [H'\ tut upiMi it. 'riu'it' was a Hnyal (/dininissinn sal in ICiijilantl sunn' 
 tinit' ayo which t'uiinti that it did nut clVcil tlu- watcf injuriniisly, so it. is a point nui 
 settled yet. 
 
 <i). Well, titini y(t\ir own knu\\led;;e can you say injurious elVeets are arisin|i{ t'roni 
 oll'al / A. I ha\i' no personal knowledife. 
 
 I}. What are your |>er8oniil \ie\vs as to the correctness of oll'al i)ein<;; thrown into 
 the river .' A. Well, that is a <|Uestion which I liavt- ,i;i\('n too little interest to of 
 eonrs(> we are aliovc the otl'ence here hut 1 tliiidx in a ri\«'r like we ha\e here it do.-s 
 little hurt. 
 
 (J. i)oes it do any harm ? A. ^\'ell. as I ha\t' told vou 1 have heon liere fi yea 's. 
 
 * • • • 
 
 and I have seen none of it. 
 
 (.(>. Have you heen down the river yourself to see'/ — A. Well, 1 have had practice 
 down as far as Ladner'.s, and I have iiad no exjiciience in its had I'tlects if deposited in 
 the channel it would l)e better than in shallow waiter w here it woidd lie and dticonipose. 
 
 ofl 
 
 lien tit 
 ill into the riv 
 
 you I 
 
 •rsonal 
 
 n( 
 
 (lye vou kn 
 
 no bud ert'eets frtim throwini 
 
 ,err-A. N 
 
 o, none al al 
 
 <J. Are you one of those who ihii\k that throwinu; olVal into the water woidd 
 
 cleanse it or purify it / — A. No, it would not i-leanse it. 
 
 ni 
 
 1 . , 
 
 (.i>. It would ilianfje it sonievhfu from the normal state? — V. Yes, but when 1 say 
 
 tl injurious " 1 mean if it is llowin;,' water — if in staj^nant water or in u place where 
 
 it would (iecomposc, il certainly would be injurious 
 
 U. Then if makiiiL' a lodyment alonji the shores of the river or in shallow water 
 
 It won 
 
 Id 1 
 
 ie injurious 
 
 ? -A. Y 
 
 if the water was consumed from that immediate 
 
 neiyhltourliood it niiiflit produce disease like dysentery and such like. 
 
 (i. Would it have a tendency to produce typhoid fever / A. Xo, tyi>hoi'l fever is 
 a thiiiij which only comes fiMtm another case of typhoid. 
 
 i). lUit. would ty}>hoitl be jiroj^luced from deposits on the shore which " pro- 
 
 duce niiasmatic elVects I — A. No. 
 
 Q. Then you don't know of its havinix produced any injury to health ? -A. No, 1 
 do not know of any it has i>rodiU'ed. 
 
 (^>. lUit it would if dei)osited in bays and sloughs where it would lie expo.sed to 
 h.'at .? A. Ye.s. 
 
 C,|. But not in tlowinu water? X. No, because in flowing water it would lie 
 carrit I awav and eaten ui> bv .scaven«'er tish. 
 
 By Jlr. Hi(j(jins : 
 
 Q. l>octor. you are Health (Ulicer of this town? — A. Yes. 
 <.i>. What is the state of the general health of the inhabitants? — A. (iood. 
 (x>. Any sickness in the summer? - A. Y'es, a little. 
 
 Q. Any cases of enteric in summer? — A. AVell, they usually start in September or 
 October. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Is that after the fishing or during its continuance .' — -A. It is generally after 
 the fishing season. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. You practice outside this town? — A. Ye.s. sometimes — in cases where parties 
 would be patients of mine. • 
 
 Q. Any cases of typhoid fever in town? — A. Yes. 
 
 ii. And on the higher levels where people would not drink water supplied from 
 the river ? — A. Oil, yes : above that. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been called to Ladnei-'s for typhoid or enteric fever ? — A. No. 
 
IIRITISH COLUMBIA KISIIEKV '.'i.MMI.SSION. 
 
 217 
 
 Q. Ilinc you cvfi' liail any ciiscs tliat ymi wmilil uttriltiitf tu nflfil / - A. No- iKit 
 at Jill. 
 
 <i>. I )u you ever drink KraM-r Kiscr watec unadnlffiatcd ? A. Yes, it iN not worse 
 tlian Ottawa Hivcr water I lia\(' liad sonic ot' lliat. 
 
 ii. Ilaveyou t'\rr iiccn np to Cliilliwliack .' A. No not al)o\f Mission. 
 
 (}. Have you ••\fi' seen any dead lisli in tin- river ' A. Well. T liavt- st'cii some 
 lloatinu ill tlie water anil aloii;; ilic hank. • 
 
 (}. Then yiai tliink it' any typlioid fever in tiiistownit is not iittriliutahle to driiikiiij» 
 tlie water of tiie l''raser IJiver ,' A. No, I would not say that, hut I do think it would 
 lie attriliutahle to the water hein^i eontaininated hi;,'licr up typhoid is |ii'odui'fd alway.s 
 liy a previous disease it produeesiiiici'oltes that we m-ai sn niiuli of now (the newspapers 
 of the (lay liein;^ full of aecoiinfs of " Koch's lynipli ") and these inicrolics are in the 
 intestine canal and the way they spread is hy evacuations. 
 
 liy Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Typhoid must produce typhoid ,' A. ^'es. 
 
 <i>. Where was the hist case of typhoid from then .\. Well. (Lau;;hter) T cannot 
 lell that. 
 
 (^. It is not contaifioiis f A. No, it is not. 
 
 liij Air. Hiii<iins : 
 
 Q. A I ealthy person coming' in cont;ict with a person with typhoiil fever would 
 they ^'et it ? — A. Well, if they inhaled t he evacuations it is ifeneraliy dispersed liy 
 inhalations from stools where they are thrown awav. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Would effects froii. diarrluea produce typhoid fever: A. No. 
 
 (}'. Then you say this enteric fever it is comparatively in the fall of the _> 
 A. Yes, they start in the fall and <,'o on tlirou;;li the winter. 
 
 (.}. What is enteric fever .' A. That is simply another name for typhoid. 
 
 Q. Then from your knowledge of offal hy heini^ de)>osite(l in the hays and s 
 the etlects would he in the fall would it not { -A. Y'es, T suppose it w,)uld. 
 
 i). And tlie.se lodf^ments of offal would he after the tishinu is over, and 
 would then follow? — A. Y\'S, that would he the results then. 
 
 <.^. And enteric dis(>ases are most 'in the fall and winter .' A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, we are much ohliyed to you, Dr. Smith, for your coming; from your 
 hut it is one of tho.se matters ahout which we wished to derive knowledge, you k 
 A. \''ou are ipiite welcome, sir. 
 
 rear / — 
 
 loughs, 
 results 
 
 duties, 
 now. — 
 
 No more witnes.ses presenting themselves to givf eviilence the Chair declared the 
 Commi.ssioii adjourned at 4.10 ').m. to meet again at the same place at 10 a.m., on the 
 'J'.lth Fehruary,'Ks!)2. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot.-- T wish to inform the puhlic that the Co)umi.s.sion will wind up its 
 husiiie.ss here, if possihle, on AFoiulay morning. 
 
 Ni:vv Westminsticu, B.C., 
 
 .Monday, 'J'.Hh Fehruarv, 18l>2. 
 
 Morninij Se.-oilini. 
 
 The Commission a.ssemhled at 10 a.tn. 
 
 Present : — Mr. S. Wilmot, pre,siding ; Hon. D. W. Higgins, Mr. Sheriti' Armstrong, 
 Mr. C. F. ^\'inter^ secretary. 
 
0- 
 
 218 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 JOHN TBH50T8()N. a native of Erj.'laiul, resident of Xew Westminster district 
 for thirty-fovn- years, descrihing himself as a fisherman and farmer, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what do you wish to represent to this commission? — A. Well, what 
 is it you want ? 
 
 Jiy Mr. IIiy(fins : 
 
 Q. lUit you volunteer your evidence, do you not ? — A. Well, what T think about 
 the fishinjf business is this : — T started in New Westminster about twenty-seven years 
 ago, when first T went fishing, as near as I can recollect. Four years ago about, J was 
 working for Mr. Wadhams for wages - running camps and taking charge of Indians, 
 and the like of that -and I was told there tliat I had better get a license foi- myself, 
 but it was an off year like this one — we have two gt^od years and two off years — I have 
 never known it to fail. We may not catch the fish that i"un up this river always cor- 
 responding 
 
 Q. You think a crop of eggs laid down this year will produce a crop four years 
 hence ?- A. That is my experience without fail there was only one year there was a 
 failuie, but there is as many fish as ever there was. 
 
 Q. Yes, that is your knowledge as to these alternate run of fish ? — A. Yes : well, 
 they told me that year at the cannery that there was going to be a limit to the licenses 
 and any one who had not a license that year woukl not get one. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What year was that, sir .' — A. Tt was four yeais ago. 
 
 Q. 1888 then? — A. I guess it would be — it was four years ago, because it was a 
 year like this. T was told that the licenses were going to be limited and T would not 
 get a license unless I had one, but it seemed so unreasonable to me that one shouhl get 
 a license and another not that T [)ut no confidence in it. The consequence was th»t next 
 year which I thought would be a good year, when I made application for two licenses — 
 I had two since — I found that although 1 had been raised in the country I ct>uld not 
 
 get a license. 
 
 Q. Tn 1889 you could get no license 
 By Mr. Hi g gins : 
 
 T could get no license. 
 
 Q. Why 1 — A. Well he said he did'nt know me and T had not any the year before 
 ■ — at the same time I had a fish market in town rented from other business — Mr. Arm- 
 strong knows me very well. 
 
 Q. Well, you did not get any that year '- A. No : T didn't get any. 
 
 Q. Did you get any next year? -A. Well, T th<(ught next year would not see 
 people getting licenses that had no more right than I had and I thought it must be 
 through infiuence itnd T went to a man in town here that T knew and he has some little 
 influence and he gave me a little piece of writing. 
 
 Q. That was in 1890 — who got you the license? — A. Well, T don't know whether 
 it wcndd be right to tell— — 
 
 Q. Well, you have taken the oath and should tell all you know. — A. Well, if I 
 must tell — it was Mr. Cunningham — I don't know what he put in the note. 
 
 By Mr. Wif))iot: 
 
 Q. To whom was this note addressed to? — A. To Mr. Mowat, the Inspectoi' of 
 Fisheries. 
 
 Q. Dili you get licenses this last year ? — A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. lHyylns : 
 
 Q. One or three? — I got one — T didn't get any for the boys. The fish seem to l)e 
 as plentiful now as ever before, and the way I account for it is this way : when we 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 219 
 
 eanie here tirst and started fishing, we caught as many a.s now — well, T think the 
 capacity of the fishing gi'ounds tiiey will engage produces so many fish anyway, an<l it" 
 it was not, the fish produced — you could almost wander over them. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Do you think it possible to reduce fish l)y oveitisiiing ? A. Well, there is a 
 remedy for that, and what I l)elieve in is justice and ecpiality, and T think every man 
 who is a British subject should be able to fish- you should give every one who is o 
 British subject a license, and then there is the close time at the end of the week, and if 
 fish are being reduced, you could put on more time forward at night, but there is 
 enough in the day time. 
 
 Q. Do fish run more at night or day time? — A. Well, I don't know. If you have 
 any close time, have it in day time — let them fish at night always. 
 
 Q. Are not the most fish caught in night time? — A. Well, 7 don't know. We 
 catch most of the fish at the rise of the tide — sometimes it is night, sometimes day. 
 
 Q. Then, you think every British subject should get a license?— A. Yes, T think so. 
 
 Q. What about cainieries -should they get all the licenses they like ? — A. Well, I 
 dont think there is any other way but to gi\e canneries one license, because they will 
 get them anyway. 
 
 Q,. If you gave canners 100 licenses, would they employ outsidt^ fishermen? — A. 
 Well, they always do get them. 
 
 Q. But if canneries got 100 licenses each, would it not stop regular fishermen from 
 selling their fish ? — A. Well, T don't see any more justice in giving fishermen a monopoly 
 over canneiymen than in giving cannerymen the monoj)oly over fishermen- lait suppose 
 you gave cannerymen no licenses at all — well, they would be obliged to either shut up 
 their canneries or give fishermen just what they ask for their fish. Then, suppose 
 canneries only have ten licenses — the fish are often so numerous they cannot get away 
 with them, and when they have licenses of their own, they can put these boats out and 
 take the men to work in the cannery to take care of the fish. 
 
 Q. Would ten be enough to run an establishment, with what ihey could get out- 
 side ? -A. Yes, T think .so. 
 
 Q. AVhat about the ort'al? — A. Well, my opinion is that ofi'al in water does not 
 hurt anything, unless where it gets on the shore. The water is \ery cold - T have been 
 to the bottom twice, and T know it is veiy cold. 
 
 Q. Did you see any offal there / (Laughter.) — A. T didn't wait to see. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Then, y(ai think ofFal on shore is injurious — in what way 1 — A. Well, it becomes 
 offensive. 
 
 Q. Do you think, if thrown intleep water, would it be carried away ? — A. ( >h, well, 
 it gradually works away. 8o' long as it is covei'ed with water, it is all right, but, of 
 course, on shore it gets offensive. 
 
 Q. AVhat are the injurious eH'ects when it gets on shore? — A. Well, I suppose its 
 disagreeable smell — that is alxiut all I know of. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be injuricus to health / — A. Well, I don't think it is any 
 benefit to health — it ought to be kept oti'sh-re. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Jliijyins : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any one getting ill from drinking Fraser Biver water? — A.. 
 Well, I have drank the water for many years — I never found any ottence, but it is the 
 way when you get a change of water. If you go to Victoria you will find the water has 
 offence. 
 
 Q. Then a person coming from Victoria would find a change in the water — would 
 ycm think it from the dead salmon in the water or otherwise? — A. Well, I have drank 
 water from the Fraser Biver for many years — there is always a (piantity of deail salmon 
 in the river. 
 
 Q. Do you think salmon all die in the river ? — A. No T don't — I think many get 
 to the sea. 
 
I^i; 
 
 220 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 By Mr. Wibnot : 
 
 Q. You have l)een fishing about twenty-se\ en years / — A. Yes, oft' and on. 
 
 Q. And pi'obably have been employed by canneries ? — A. Yes ; l)v contract a jiood 
 deal of the time, and a jfood deal of the time I have run a stoie here like A'ienna. 
 
 Q. But as soon as vou got licenses of your own, you fished all the vear round ? — A. 
 Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you think, is the close season beneficial — how many days in the week? — A. 
 Oh, twenty-four hours are plenty at the present time. 
 
 Q. "What time .should that be? — A. I don't fish on Sunday in day time but go out 
 Sunday night. They have hardly anything to do in day time on 3londay, and if you 
 say, close all Sunday, some will go out Sunday night just the same. 
 
 Q. You think the Sunday close time should be made so as to not affect canneries or 
 fishermen — why not run it all day Sunday, then ?— A. Well, you asked me what time 
 would be best for a close time, and I am telling you. 
 
 C,). And what time would be best then ? — A. What I meant on Sunday night is — 
 we go out at si.v o'clock in the evening and fish till Monday morning. We would go 
 out from Satuiday night until Sunday morning if the close time in (Lay was Saturday 
 and Sunday, twelve hours. 
 
 (,). What about the transfer of licenses ? If a man had eight or ten .should he be 
 permitted to sell and not use them himself? If you got ten licenses on the understand- 
 ing that you were to fish for yourself should you be able to stoji at home and sell to 
 other fishermen ?--x\. Why no ; I think he should use them himself, but I don't think 
 he should get them any nioi'e than others for T think every one should get all they want. 
 
 Q. But would it be just to other fishermen if I could sell mine to others? — A. 
 Why no ; they should not lie transferable, but you shduld make it s<i there would be 
 none to transfer — make the law so there is no need to Vireak it. 
 
 Q. Where have you fished — at the m mth, or up river?; — A. I have fished all over 
 the river, from Ladner's up. 
 
 Q, Ever from Ladnei's down — on the Sand Banks? — A. No ; T have had contracts, 
 and men could go where they like. 
 
 (J. Do you think there cannot be too many boats fished down there ? — A. You 
 cannot keej) the fish from coming in. 
 
 (J. ^^'hat is the usual average of fish that yiai wouM have caught during your 
 fishing period annually ? — A. ^^'ell. in a big year about I'J.OOO to 14,000, and the next 
 year 7,000 or S.OOO, and the next probal)ly i,000 to ;5,000. 
 
 i.^. What might Ije the a\ei'age size of salmon in wi-ight — would they be G, 7 or cS 
 pounds? — A. Well, T think about 7 p(mnds — the more numerous the salmon are the 
 smalltM' they are in weight — I think al)OUt 7 pounds, and T think they won't fill more 
 than ') tins — about 4.', to 5 tins. 
 
 Q. Could you give us an idea as to whether there should be any disci'iinination in 
 the fees charged for licenses — should all be alike ?-- A. Why, of course ; one man 
 should not pay more than another. 
 
 Q. Should Fraser River men pay more than is paid on the Naas .md Skeena ? — A. 
 No ; T think they should be equal : 1 believe in justice and e(|uality in everything. T 
 don't claim because J am a fisherman that I should l)e allowed to fish because I liave 
 been fishing so long and raised a family in the countiy : I think an\' man sliould be 
 allowed to fish as well as me if a British sultjci't. 
 • Mr. HicaiiNs. — Well, then : you say you iie\er fished at the mouth of the river? — 
 
 A. No ; T never fished outside of the sand heads. 
 
 Q. What do you consider the mouth of the river? — A. Well, I would consider the 
 mouth of the river below (iairv Point. 
 
 Q. Would you consider tlie saiidh(»ads the mouth of the rivei'? — A. Well, \ would 
 consider the mouth of the I'iver where the water falls oft'. 
 
 (,|. Where the sand heads disappeai' ? — A. Yes. 
 
 (}. Would you prevent fishing on those sand heads ! - A. No. 
 
 Mr. Wri.MOT. Aiul you think it does not prevent fish from coming into the river: 
 have you never (>aught salmon elsewhere — in Cohnnbi.' Jtiver or in ^lud Bay? — A. I 
 have cau'dit fish in the Columbia River. 
 
BRITISH C0LUJI3IA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 001 
 
 Q. lUit it' nets are put across the uioutli would tisli have a cliaiice to get up I — A. 
 Yes, T think so ; they will go under, and in all shapes ; in slack watei- the Hsli run 
 more regulai-ly — in swift water they run straighten 
 
 liif Mr. III(/(ji)is : 
 
 Q. What are the depth of nets, then 1 — A. Thei'e should i)e no special depth ; the 
 way t(^ regulate fishing is by close time. 
 
 Q. Then you think fishing on the sand heads would not be detrimental — it does 
 not drive fish away from the river ?— A. No ; it does not drive them away ; when fish 
 aie ready to come into the river they will come or else be caugiit : For instance, here 
 (illustrating his meaning on the table) are the nets, one right behind the other — the 
 man down the river will not probably get many fish, and the next one will get lots of 
 rliein ; they are on their way home. 
 
 Q. Vriiat do you mean by a salmon going home ? — A. To the spawning beds, of 
 lourse. 
 
 n>/ Mr. miinof : 
 
 Q. AVt'll, if there is a barrier across the river, can they go ? — A. Well, you are 
 worrying me. (Laughtei'.) Of course, if it was a natural barrier, they could not get 
 past. 
 
 Q. But if there was a barrier across, would it not prevent them from going home? 
 — A. Oh, well, you cannot stop them lik^ that — many will go home. 
 
 Q. Have you ever fished with seines I — A. Xo, sir ; T don't know anything about 
 seines ; I never fished them. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Thank you, sir ; that will do. 
 
 Dr. W. REINHARDT, M.D., a native of Germany, residing in British Columbia 
 about ."? years, and living at Ladner's Landing, B.C., for about 2 years, a practising 
 physician and sui'geon was duly sworn. 
 
 Ui/ Mr. Wihnot . 
 
 Q. Have you anything to otl'er wit regard to the river — with regaril to the pollu- 
 tion of it, or injury done to man or bea>i by the throwing of offal in the river? — A. 
 Well, of course, I have formed an opinion aliout that. There has been .1 good many 
 cases of typhoid fever there, and it is an importau! question. That is the prevalent 
 disease there. 
 
 (j. Have you formed an opinion as to the cause of that disease ' — A. Yes ; but it 
 is not ort'al ; it is the bad tlrainage there ; there are no drains ; every farmer can make 
 ditches and cess-pools as he likes ; there is no law whatever ; they can do Just as they 
 like. Now take the Slough oi> which all these typhoid fe\<M cases occurred. This 
 slough has produced no typhoid fevei- during the l)ig runs. La>i year thei'e were hardly 
 any on that slough, while we had many ca.ses of typhoid fever. I have been living i-ight 
 over the slough ; it I'uns under my house, and T ought to kimw something about it. 
 There was no offal thrown in last year, and I attribute the typhoid ' liad weather and 
 drainage. You cannot produce typhoid by decomposing animal matter. You know 
 the Frenchmen and Ciermans eat Limburgei' cheese and otlur dt'con\posed matter. 
 Y'ou cannot product! typhoid fever by simply decomposed organic matter. The simple 
 fact of organic matter Ijeing in a state of decomi)osition, does not .say it is poisonous. 
 
 (}. Yon say there is want of drainage down there ? — A. Y'^es ; and I have talked 
 over it with the Fxiard of Health. T have told farmers not to drink the water. Now, 
 with the Chinamen you have no typhoid fever, because the Chinamen do not drink the 
 water, but boil it like tea — and in the old country, in big cities, would the people 
 think of drinking the water / No; they put in a little whiskey or something to kill 
 these germs. T call that slough nothing more than a ditch. Last year they put .\ilam 
 in the slough 
 
222 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 i* 
 
 By Mr. Iliyijins : 
 
 Q. What is the name of the slough 1 — A. Cohiluthan Slough. You see all the 
 closets run into that slough— they have no right to drink it ; they should boil it. 
 
 Q. But has everybody to boil the water before they can drink it ? — A. I moved 
 away because I could not get gooti water. 
 
 Q. You moved away because you thought it unhealthy ? — A. Yes ; I didn't want 
 to bring my family there ; there has been typhoid fever there for some time ; it is not 
 properly drained ; now, for instance, they want to widen the road there ; they simply 
 throw up a dike and that settles it ; there is no law ; they do as they like. 
 
 (j. Where do the people throw their kitchen slops 1 — A. Into the slough — every- 
 thing goes into it. 
 
 Q. But if they want drainage at all — a man must have drainage to carry his water, 
 etc., down into the slough ? — A. Yes ; but there is nobody to look after any — there is no 
 board of health — the farmer can drain just as little or just as nmch as he likes. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you think oti'al has no bad effect at all ? — A. Well, I don't think so — I think 
 it will be a very unhealthy place, but not on account of the canneries. 
 
 Q. If no oftal were thrown in, would it be better? — A. Well, there was very little 
 thrown in. 
 
 Q. But, if none were thrown in, would it not be better for health — would not 
 water in its normal^ or healthy state be injured by throwing offal into it ?— A. Certainly ; 
 I suppo.se it would be, but they have no right to drink it — ^whether the slough now is 
 healthy or unhealthy — typhoid fever or not — I would not diink it. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrony : 
 
 Q. But do you think offal in previous years impregnated the slough there that 
 fever could come after ? — A. Well, you see, the germs must be formed — they are not 
 formed except by the offspring of another egg and the germ is the origin of the being 
 no matter how small it is. 
 
 Q. But may they not be increased by other foul matter ? — A. Certainly ; but you 
 tind decomposing organic matter everywhere — in big cities you have cess-pools, closets, 
 etc., and the germ is increased from them. 
 
 Q. But would not throwing offal in increase these germs 1 You say foul matter in 
 cities has the effect of inci-easing germs of typhoid fever or sickness ? — A. I can hai dly 
 answer the question like that. If you have a typhoid fever patient, in the wash excre- 
 ment are these germs. Now, instead of destroying these germs it goes into the closet, 
 and it goes into the soil, and as soon as it gets into the river I believe it will get 
 destroyed. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Will it get in the land ? — A. That is where it most lodges. 
 
 Q. Well then,this offal lying on the soil, will it produce germs ? — A. Well, everything 
 will produce germs — it is like living on a voh ann — that is why it gets away over — ivoni 
 the turning up of the land — now in (xermany it is pi'oved by the rise and fall of surface 
 water — as .soon as the water rises there is no danger, but as soon as it goes away, then 
 there is danger. 
 
 Q. Then as long as oftal is in water it does not produce germs ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. But as soon as the water leaves, it produces them ? — A. Well, yes, of course, all 
 things like that produce them. 
 
 Q. Then you think if put in rivers it tloes no harm ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You know pretty much what that soil is composed of (lown there ? It is 
 sedimentary deposit, is it not ? — A. Yes ; most of it is peat. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Have you ever lived in an ague country, doctor ? — A. No; but I have been 
 in New York -^ and whe!i j)ractising up country I have seen this sickness come on — 
 but they should get fresh water there. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY OOMMISSION. 
 
 223 
 
 Q. Where could they get it? — A. Well, they could get it from the timher — they 
 are 4 miles from the timber, hut instead they prefer putting in a little whiskey. 
 
 Q. Would wiiiskey destroy these germs ? — A. Well, no ; not altogether, hut to 
 a large extent — now I may say that all these persons who were typhoid fever patients 
 were all temperance people — I don't mean to say that whiskey did all the good in the 
 cases of others who drank it, and did not have typhoid fever, but I would prefer taking 
 bad whiskey to bad water. • 
 
 i 
 
 LOUIS MACAYERT, a native of Italy, in British Columbia for eight years, a 
 fisherman, and resident of New Westminstei-, was duly sworn. 
 
 (Being unable to speak English plainly his statements and the questions put to him 
 were interpreted by John Stevens.) 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Well, .vhat do you want to say 1 — A. He says he has been here for eight years 
 and has applied for licenses these last four years and gave S20 to Mr. Mowat's Ijrother 
 last year, and Mr. Mowat told him if any license was issued for him he would have it — 
 he waited some time and then got his 820 back. 
 
 Q. Is he a British subject '? — A. Yes : here are his papers, (handing in certificate 
 of naturalization). 
 
 Q. Y''ou have no other complaint except that you could not get a license when you 
 applied for it ? — A. He says that in his opinion he should have a license the same as 
 any other persons who are British subjects — he has been here in New Westminster 
 eitjht vears and he has done nothing else but fishing. 
 
 Q. Has any one else got licenses since he put in his application ? — A. Yes : two oi- 
 three after he paid his 820 — one an Austrian and one a Spaniard. 
 
 Q. Were they British sul)jects ? — A. Y'^es : they were naturalized two years ago — 
 he says that he had to give his fish for 4 bits (50 cents) apiece while the rest had 81 and 
 81.25 — he had no license but had a net, and consequently he had to take what was 
 offered. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. How could one get 81.25 and the other 50 cents? — A. Because he had to sell 
 his fish to Mr. Port and Mr. Port had given him a license. 
 
 Q. Then if he had a boat of his own he would l)e able to deal with Mr. Port direct 1 
 ■ — A. Well, that is what he thinks if he had a license. 
 
 Q. A boat was furnished by ]Mr. Port? — A. No, he owned a boat and net, but did 
 not own a liceiise. 
 
 Q. Well, I do not see how he was lefused if he had a boat and net ? 
 
 By Mr. Higgins: 
 
 Q. Well, he had no license — he could not have fished at all ? — A. I know a case 
 where Mr. Low was fishing and he got one pass only out of six. 
 
 Q. Then what he claims is that being a British subject and fisherman, he should 
 get a license like any other man and he only wants but one? — A. Yes : one license and 
 one boat. 
 
 Q. What nundier of fish may he have caught, of the sockeye family, when fishing 
 fur Mr. Port? — A. He says he didn't fish sockeyes for Mr. Port. 
 
 Q. Well, for anylrody ? — A. He says he took 1,000 fish for Mr. Ladner. 
 
 Q. Did he fish all the while ? — A. No, about two weeks. 
 
 Q. And what did he get for the sockeye fiom Mr. Ladner? — A. Twelve and a half 
 cents. 
 
 Q. Divided between himself and j)artner ? -A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Yery well, that will do — we understand his grievance — we are 
 obliged to you for interpreting for us. 
 
 '1 
 
:''h 
 
 224 
 
 MARINE ASU FISHERIES. 
 
 On the question of luljourning to Victoria, raised by Hon. Mr. Higgins, it was 
 unanimously resolved that tlie Connnission wouki be kei)t open in Westminster till 12 
 o'clock noon, it' evitlence is forthcoming, and if not, that an earlier adjournment would 
 be made to Victoria to meet there, at 10 a.m. on the day following departure from West- 
 minster, and that Mr. Higgins be authorized to obtain a suitable room for holding the 
 meetinys of the Connnission. 
 
 «:' 
 
 Dr. J. R. WILSON, M.D., of Ladner's Laniling, a native of Canada, and living in 
 British Columbia between fi and 7 months, a practising physician and surgeon, was 
 duly sworn. 
 
 JJi/ Mr. WilniQt : 
 
 Q. I presume the sole oljject in having Dr. Wilson brought here is in regard 
 to this offal question. Now, from your knowledge of matters at Delta can you give any 
 light upon the good effects or evil effects of the lodgment of offal along the shore ? — A. 
 Offal tlirown into the middle of the river with the current i-iinning at four or live miles 
 an hour may not be injurious to the health of people living an..;g the shores, but T 
 think if it is thrown t)r lodges along the shores or is driven in the sloughs, I tliink it 
 wituld be iiijurous to health. 
 
 Q. Have you any evidence as to injurious effects upon the health of people ? — A. 
 Well, about 7-3 per cent of t;ie cases I was called upon to treat were typhoid fever and 
 with persons residing along the slough. I don't mean to say that decomposing fish is the 
 cause of the fever unless paities were predisposed by using the water. 
 
 Q. AVhat was the nature of the diseases you attended ? — A. Fevers and diarrhoea 
 — l)y the action of the water on the intestine canals it left a suitable soil for the germs 
 to act upon, i.e. germs producing typhoid fever. 
 
 Q. Have the cases been numerous during your experience ? — A. Yes, I never had 
 so many during my practice of seven years as I have had in the m<mths of Septemoer 
 and ( )ctober when the fishing season was over last year. 
 
 Q. Is it more apparent then than in earlier spring ? — A. AVell, I was not there 
 until last August — that is the time thoug'i for typhoid fever, in the autumn the mici'oi)es 
 are greater then. 
 
 Q. Are any special reasons assigned by the medical fraternity why the autumn 
 months produce fever ? — A. Yes, after the hot dry summers and springs running dry, 
 there is so much ground exposed to the sun, the evaporation, etc., is more likely to pro- 
 duce this effect. 
 
 Q. Will soil absorb injurious matter so that it is thrownoff when the water recedes? 
 — A. Yes, absorption of decompitsing vegetable matter along the shores is the theory. 
 
 (,}. What aVjout animal matter? — A. Well, I cannot say— as well as decomposing 
 vegetable matter — there is said to b(> some of it. 
 
 Q. But the animal matter, if added to it, would it be worse ? — A. It miglit. 
 
 Q. Were the cases malignant? — A. The most malignant cases I have ever been 
 sent up to treat were there. 
 
 Q. Is typhoid contagious ? — A. Indirectly ; the poison nnist go through a change 
 before it enters the system — the germ that produces disease undergoes a change before it 
 is fit to set up another disease. 
 
 Q. Are germs produced from decaying vegetable ami animal matter ? — A. The germs 
 grow and nndtiply in vegetable matter. 
 
 0. Is the origin of the germ known? — A. It feeds upon the vegetaljle matter — we 
 dont know the beginning — these gerais e.xist, and if they have anything to feed upon 
 they multiply and increase. 
 
 Q. Are you of the belief or opinion that the deposition of ipiantities of offal in the 
 liver and its Moating back upcjn the shoies of the river are injurious to human health ? 
 — A. I am. 
 
 Q. And do you attribute in a degree — let it be large or small — that the seventy- 
 five per cent of cases you have treated would have ior their origin more or less of the 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 225 
 
 effects from this offal or not < — A. I am not prepared to say that — all I am prepared to 
 say is that I believe it injurious to human health, and that it may have something to do 
 with these cases. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of its effects upon the brute creation — cows, &c. ? — A. 
 Well, that it would be injurious — it would be injurious through the milk — milk is a con- 
 ductor of disease. 
 
 Q. And the more healthy the fluid the cows may drink, the milk would be the more 
 healthy? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of its effects upon the flesh of animals — pigs being 
 unfit for food, <&c. ? — A. I cannot say — I have heard it was, but I doi\'t know of my own 
 
 knowledge. 
 
 Jii/ Ml'. Hi(/(jins 
 
 -A. There 
 
 Q. 
 Q. 
 Q. 
 Q. 
 
 Q. Doctor, is there only one slough in the vicinity of Ladner's Landing ?- 
 are a numluer. 
 
 Q. But the one slough ? — A. Well, that is the one which I think affects the health. 
 
 Q. But is it any different to the others ? — A. Well, there is a cannery situated at 
 the mouth of the slough. 
 
 Q. Are there any at the others 1 — A. No. 
 
 Are you aware of any trench or system of dykes in the vicinity 1 — A. Yes. 
 Are they stagnant or not ? — A. Well, I think some of them are stagnant. 
 Where are the closets drained to 1 — A. Into the ground. 
 
 Would the land be over-flowed unless it was for the dykes — have you ever seen 
 the land over-flowed ? — A. Well, no, not since I have been there — I have seen a little of 
 it over-flowed by the dam at the slough. 
 
 Q. Have you ever lived in a fever and ague country ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Do you think cattle that drink from this slough alone are affected ? — A. Oh, 
 well, I cannot say if only these are affected. I only say the milk would be affected if 
 they drank of the water. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that dead fish come down the I'iver in numbers ? — A. Well, I 
 know there are numbers in this slough. 
 
 Q. And would the efiect from them be just as bad as from offal ?• — A. Yes ; just as 
 bad. 
 
 Q. And do you attribute to the fact that there is a cannery at the mouth of the 
 slough, that there is typhoid fever there? — A. No, not necessarily — I think, though, it is 
 because of offal being washed up. 
 
 Q. And do you say that good would be got if the cannery was not there 1 — A. No, 
 the sanitary condition of the place is not good. 
 
 Q. Is there any board of health — any sanitary officer — any one to report to the 
 (xovernment that typhoid fever exists there ?— A. Not any one that I know of — there 
 are two police there whose duty they say it is, but I don't know. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the bottom of the slough when the tide is out there ?^ 
 A. T don't know — there is notliing particular. 
 
 Q. Does it look slimy ? — ^A. Yes. I have seen dead fish also there. 
 
 Q. They would render the land around more slimy, would they not ? 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, I was just going to ask the doctor were those fish whole fish or did they 
 look decayed 1 — A. Some were whole fisli, some were not. 
 
 By Mr. lliyyina : 
 
 Q. But what T want to get at is this : If dead fish are brought down by the 
 current and deposited thei'e, they would have just as bad an effect as offal .'- 
 as bad. 
 
 liy Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. All decomposing matter would be just as bad / — A. Just as bad. 
 10c— 15 
 
 Just 
 
i i 
 
 226 
 
 MARINE AND FISHEBIE8. 
 
 Jit/ Mr. IlifjijiHs : 
 
 Q. If offiil were thrown out in the current, do you think it would he washed out 
 to sea 1 — A. Well, I cannot say — it might be brought hack into the sloughs. 
 
 Q. There is a current of four miles there? — A. Still, I think in fishing time they 
 say the influence of the back tide is not much felt. 
 
 Q. Then, if the tide is running at six miles, they would have six hours to take 
 offal out ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of lots of offal lying around the shores of the slough ? — A. No, 
 I have not seen it. 
 
 Q. You have seen dead tish?— A. Yes ; sometimes too I have seen the offal. 
 
 Jijj Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What is the population of your village 1 — A. Three hundi-ed or four liundred or so. 
 
 Q. Do you ever Hnd that, as a I'ule, medical men reconnnend sanitary matters oi- 
 measures in a small village like that ? A. No, I don't think they do. 
 
 Q. Was illness produced in the village or along the shore out among the farmeis l 
 — A. It was along this slough among the farmers. 
 
 Q. Are they faii-ly cleanly, industrious people, along that slough ? — A. They are. 
 
 Q. Would you attribute any amount of uncleanliness on their part to induce this 
 typhoid? — A. No, they are not so uncleanly as to protluce this. 
 
 Mr. HKifilxs. — Well, 1 don't think the doctor understands that question. He has 
 already said that all kitchen slops and deposits from clo.sets go into the slough. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 ii. But tho.se conditions apply every whei-e in the world — they are generally deposited 
 just on the ground. Are the conditi(ms there .so adapted more than other places for 
 the extension of the disease ? —A. No, most of my patients were at the head of the 
 slough. 
 
 Jti/ Mr. I/i<jffins : 
 
 Q. But any place where the tides sweep back and raises the depf>sit from the bottom 
 up, I think, would be tine conditions for typhoid. [)o you ever drink that water at 
 all?- A. No. 
 
 Q. What do people drink down there ?— A. They catch rain water and mix it, 
 generally. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 (^. If any dead fish or offal were not carried into that slough, would the water be 
 palatable — drinkable ? — A. No, I think not. 
 
 Q. From what cause? — A. From water closets along the shore. 
 
 Q. What inhabitants are there along the .slough? -A. Twelve. 
 
 Q. And the deposits from these twelve persons would therefore pollute the .slough ? 
 - — A. N<» : they are mostly living back from it. 
 
 Q. Some medical men have told us the deposits from these kind of things would 
 purify the waters of the slough ; do you ngree with that idea? — A. No, sii-, I do not. 
 
 ]Mr. WiLMOT. — It might not be amiss for me to i-ead a few exti-acts from a report 
 of the Ontario Agricultural Department, and .see if you agree with them. 
 
 (Mr. Wilmot then pi'oceeded to read from an article in the Victoria "Colonist" of 
 20th February, 1S92, and in which the following conclusions were made : — ) 
 
 1. It will utilize a bye pi-oduct tliat otherwise is a total loss. 
 
 2. It will prevent the waters from becoming contaminated. 
 
 3. Its pi'oper ma.iagement must tend towarils a more healthful surrounding. 
 
 4. Its i-eturn to the soils of the farm will partly offset the waste of our cities l»y 
 sewage carried to the lakes and rivers. 
 
 0. If propei'ly handled it will pay well. 
 
 y. Do you agree with those sentiments 1 — A. I do j I cannot say as to the expense 
 of manufacture. . 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISIll 
 
 COMMISSION. 
 
 22*7 
 
 Q. No ; l»ut as regards the health? — A. Yes ; I (juite agree. 
 
 Q. Do you know of Professor James ? — A. No, I don't know him. 
 
 Q. I may mention that you will tind this in the " Colonist " of a few days ago, 
 where the whole matter is laid down, and these are the conclusions that are come to. 
 
 INIr. T. Launkr (speaking from the audience). — Will you excuse me for a moment. 
 As a person who is deeply interested in land at Ladner's Landing, I would like to 
 suggest a (juestion to he asked Dr. Wilson. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Mr. Ljidner, we have exteniled to you more thati to any person 
 opportunities to make statements. 
 
 Mr. Ladner. — I have heard several doctors make statements here ; now I would 
 like to say that there is a .saw mill fi-om which 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Then you wish me to ask the Doctor if mill refuse will not affect 
 the public health ? — A. Yes ; it will aid towards it. 
 
 Q. And the combination of .sawdust, offal, and f>ther matter would produce greater 
 effects than any one of them alone ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Very well. Doctor, that will do. 
 
 Dr. Wilson asked if his expenses would be allowed him, and was infoi-medby the 
 Chair that if he would submit his account for the same it would be forwarded to the 
 department for con.sideration. 
 
 Mr. McTIEllNAN, Indian Agent, who had previously given testimony, again 
 presented himself. 
 
 Mr. McTiEHNAX. — Ml-. AVilmot has made a statement which T wish to contradict, 
 ill that he said that the Indians only come here and stay a little while and then go 
 away again. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Mr. Wilmot made no such statement — it was simply given in as 
 evidence — T did not say it at all — some one else did. If you want proof, I have no 
 ol)jection in saying that I think Indians should have licenses wi well as other men. 
 
 Mr. McTiEHNAN.— Thank you, sir. 
 
 Mr. ALEX. EWEN, who had previously given e\ide'.ice, asked permission to say 
 a few words as to the pollution of the waters, a>id was ajjain yworn. 
 
 JNIr. EwEN. — We are all aware that during a freshev the river is very muddy — • 
 vegetable matter, itc, coming down, and we have a flat bank or beach, that is a ledge of 
 l)anks, and about eighteen or twenty yeai's ago it was \evy ofi'ensive here in New West- 
 minster. Mr. Armstrong ami a great many people know it just as well as 1 tlo. About 
 the 1st of July the water begins to recede again, iuid leaves about a foot or eighteen 
 inches of this deposit lying upon the bank — witli a cane you will go down a foot or 
 eighteen inches — that raises a very otl"ensi\e smell when you are going through it, and 
 turns up a very black offensive matter, and some days you will feel effects of it very 
 ))ad, and in the early days when the effects were felt more than now, there were a good 
 many hogs lying around, and it was good ground for them to work upon, and when they 
 came down they raised a great stench. Late in the fall this all washed away, and in a 
 few days the banks became firm again. You have a great deal of this along the 
 Eraser River. It is a great deal wor.se. more hurtful to tie stomach rather than tiie 
 stench from the sawdust. Ijvery person who has been living here upon the banks 
 knows it, and it has been tV.;- every one to see, and it would be a good thing if the tish- 
 ery inspector would take notice of it and see if it is not one of the causes that makes 
 health bad upon the river, and you might get evidence to conrirm that: and I have no 
 hesitation in saying that it must have come under the observation of Mr. Armstrong. 
 
 Mr. Wit MOT. — I may state, Mr. Ewen, that when sawdust is in a decaying condi- 
 tion, it is a V3ry disagreeal)le substance and throws off a most offensive smell, and the 
 Dominion (lovernment is endeavouring to prevent its deposit in the water. At Ottawa 
 we have a lot of it, and 1 know it is considered very ofi'ensive. However, aboul ttit 
 liver here, you say it deposits black sedimentary matter? 
 
 10c— 15i 
 
228 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. EwKN. — Yes ; it leaves a black matter arul when disturbed it raises a very 
 offensive smell, and directly after the lodgraei.* of this matter the Oolachans come up 
 the river, and many come upon the beach, and when hogs used to root there, it was for 
 tlie Oolachans they were after. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — After this black matter becf)mes decayed and throws ofi .. offensive 
 smell and aids sickness— now could it not be increased by the deposit of a great quantity 
 of offal 1 
 
 Mr. EwEN. — Yes ; but there is no tishing when this is gathered. Of course it 
 would increase it — "every little makes a nuickle " (laughter) — and everything added to 
 the deposits will make matters worse. 
 
 The Commission adjourned at 12.10 p.m., to meet again at the same place at 2 p.m. 
 
 Nkw Westminster, B.C., Tuesday, 29th February, 1892. 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 Tl)e Conniiission reassembled at 2 p.m., in the Court-house. 
 
 Present : — !Mr. Chairman AVilmot, Mr. Sheriff Armstrong and Mr. Secretary 
 Winter. 
 
 No evidence being forth* timing the Chairman declared the Commission adjourned till 
 4 p.m. 
 
 u 
 
 The Commission reassemVjled at 4 p.m. 
 
 Present : — Mr. Chairman Wilmot, Mr. Sheriff Armstrong and Mr. Secretary 
 Winter. 
 
 No evidence being forthcoming the Chairman declared the Commission adjourned 
 until 10 a.m., 1st March, at the same place of meeting. 
 
 \^W -i* 
 
 New Westminster, B.C., Wednesday, 1st March, 1892. 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Commission assembled at the Court House at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present : — Mr. Chairman Wilmot, Mr. Sheriff Armstrong, and Mr. Secretary Winter. 
 In the absence of witnesses ready to proceed the Chairman at 10.15 declaimed the 
 Commission adjourned until 11.15 a.m. 
 
 At 11.25 a.m., the Connnission was called to order by Mr. Chairman Wilmot and 
 proceeded to hear evidence as follows : — 
 
 Mr. henry D. BENSON, a native of St. John, N.B.. but a resident of British 
 Columbia for the past twenty-one years, now living at Ladner's Landing, and represent- 
 ing himself as engaged in lumbering and farming, was duly .sworn : — 
 
 Mr. Benson. — We had a meeting at Ladner's Landing on Saturday afternoon, in 
 regard to fish offal as it affects the Delta people, and I was chairman of the meeting and 
 have been delegated to hand in this petition to your Commission. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Are you Reeve of the municipality ? — A. T am Reeve of the municipality and 
 was chairman of the meeting, and I am here to hard in to you the petition re offal and 
 the minutes of the meeting. 
 
 The Chairman look the proferred papers and read from them aloud as follows : 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT OOMMiaSION. 
 
 229 
 
 Ladner'« LANi)iX(i, B.C., 27tli Februury, 181>*J. 
 
 A meeting wa.s held in the Delta Town Hull, to discuss and pi'ote.st against the 
 action of the canners in casting tish oti'al into the Fraser Hivec. 
 
 Chairman H. D. Benson, reeve of Delta nmnicipality, opened the meeting by .say- 
 ing that fish offal was a great nuisance and hurtful to the bulk of residents of the muni- 
 cipality and that action should be taken to .send a petition to the Fish Connnission now 
 sitting in New Westminstei'. 
 
 Mr. W. H. Ladner then ai-ose and said that fish oftal was a nuisance in the river, 
 but thought it would make very good manure. Messrs. W. Arthur, E. S. lirown, Hy. 
 Trim, and several others gave evidence that fish offal had to their certain knowledge 
 caused many cases of sick ne.ss and a number of deaths. Mr. John Kirkland said that 
 filth of any kind is detestable, and Mr. (ila.s.sford thought it advisable for the Delta 
 Council to appoint a board of health. The chairman asked Dr. Wilson to state 
 his opinion, but Dr. Wilson tlutught it unneces.sary as he was to give his opinion l)efore 
 the Commission in New Westminster. 
 
 After a lengthy debate whether it would not be advisable to protest also against the 
 sewage of the city of New Westminster from draining into the river, it was decided 
 that tlie fish offal only should be protested against. Messrs. H. D. Benson, John Kirk- 
 land and W. H. Ladner, were appointed delegates to wait on the Fish Commission in 
 New Westminster with the petition from the people. 
 
 After a vote of thanks to the chairman and .secretary the meeting came to a close. 
 
 PETITION. 
 
 To the Fishery Commission tunv in session in Netv Westminster : 
 
 Gp:ntlemex, — We, the undersigned i-esidents of Ladner's Landing and vicinity, do 
 hereby vigorously piotest against the action of the canners in casting the fish offal into 
 the river and vitiating the watei- which we drink, and not only is the watei' rendeied 
 impure, but the tide cast.s the oftal on the low-lying lauds along the sloughs, which 
 decaying cfiuses a most disgusting odour, making oui- locality unhealthy and undesirable 
 to live in, and depreciating the value of oui' i)roperty. (Except what iiiin-water is 
 caught in cisterns, the Fraser River water is the only water which we have to drink.) 
 
 (Signed.) 
 
 H. L. Ben'sox, 
 J. F. Waddell, 
 
 C. S. FERfiUSON, 
 
 Charles R. Lord, 
 Thos. Tfhrkhill, 
 
 C. A. Wat.sox, 
 S. B. Burr, 
 
 JoHX KiRKLAXD, 
 
 Harry Trim, 
 Wm. Artiilr, 
 Wm. H. Ladxkr, 
 Wm. Ale.xander, 
 A. E. Torres, 
 W. J. Learv, 
 E. Hr'iTiiEsox, 
 
 H. S. r.ROWXE, 
 Wtaixtox it SUAV, 
 Fraxk McCuLLorcin, 
 
 D. M. Miller, 
 D. B. Graxt, 
 J. McLearn, 
 
 li. P. Alexaxder, 
 Rev. T. 8. Glassford, 
 W. T. Arthur, 
 
 A. PORMITER, 
 F. PoRMITER, 
 
 S. T. Elliott, 
 JoHX Gilchrist, 
 W. H. Burr, Jr., 
 Wm. Anuer.son, 
 E. S. Browxe, 
 
 JoiIX 81M.SOX, 
 
 H. C. Ravsox, 
 Joseph Jordax, 
 Alex, (tilchrist, 
 W. J. Watsox, 
 R. Watsox, 
 JosiAH Bath, 
 W. A. M('Callum, 
 Alex. E. Coxxolly, 
 A. Casulich, 
 
 W. iNIcIXTYRE, 
 
230 
 
 MARINK AND FISHERIES. 
 
 F. KlRKLANI), 
 
 John Pkrkam, 
 
 H. Hl< KH, 
 
 W. B. Parry, 
 
 E. GOUDY, 
 
 A. R. Lkary, 
 
 T. CURTIH, 
 
 E. D. Oak IAN, 
 Ladner's Landing, 27th February, 1892. 
 
 Tlli»8. Al»8ETT, 
 
 Geo. Dennis, 
 IUkkr Wehtemark, 
 H. K, Falconer, 
 P. Giu'iiriht, 
 (t. Ai»ams, 
 
 W. WRKillT, 
 
 F. F. Raitii. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — This ficntlciiKMi, you desire to put before the Coninii.ssidn, and which 
 will be tiled with the papers of the C(tinmissioii — it will be necessary to call upon some 
 of the delegates for evidence? — A. You will see that Mr. Kirkland and Mr. Ladner 
 are delejjates with uie. 
 
 (j. Yes ; I think then, Mr. Benson, we will take the ordinary course with you and 
 before asking questions will swear you as other witnesses. 
 
 The usual oath was then administered to Mr. Benson. 
 
 The Chairman (continuing) —AVould you like to make any voluntary statement of 
 you) own in regard to this matter ? — A. Yes ; I would like to make a litde statement in 
 regard to the location, &c., and people in the Delta. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, afterwards we may ask some questions ? — A. I may state 
 in the first place that at the Delta there are two slougiis running into the Delta — the 
 Crescent and the Cohiluthan slough. The Crescent is some three i»r four miles, but it is 
 dammed in and is open for some three or four miles. At Ladner's, Cohiluthan Slough 
 enters and is .somewhere in the neighbourhood of two miles in length. 
 
 Q. These two shmghs — one is above and the (jther below Delta? — A. Oh, both are 
 in the Delta District — one above and one below — the people living ahmg the banks use 
 watei" from both. In these two sloughs the tide rises and falls and at Ladner's the 
 water is very shallow, and in fact for quite a piece below. There is only a small channel 
 about 100 yards wide or so at low watei'. There is a bar in the) river and all the way 
 up fiom Ladner's it is shallow water and in these sUtughs the tide runs up. There is a 
 cannery just at Cohiluthan Slough — they cany offal in in summer time and it lodges on 
 the shores and gives off" a frightful stench and which is considered a bad thing. It was 
 always considered so in New Brunswick, and below Cohiluthan Slough the tide brings a 
 lot of offiil in and it lodges there, and in Canoe Pass there are many small sloughs. 
 
 Q. May I ask is this an island between Canoe Pass and Ladner's Landing ? (scan- 
 ning map) — A. No; that is the mainland — the slough is dammed ni>w at Mr. Arthni's 
 — when I first went there the water at times went through, and it is open at both ends 
 — both at tht east side and at the Fraser River side. As I said before, the current sets 
 close to the bank from Ladner's dt»wn to Canoe Pass and the prevailing wind is from 
 New Westminster in summer season, which sets drift of any kind towards the shore 
 and a great deal of off"al lodges there, and when you get to Canoe Pass — that is a sViallow 
 passage anyway— there is always water in it, but at places it is very shallow, and there 
 are small sloughs or rough places where the off'al Kidges — for instance at Mr. H. Trim's 
 — Mr. Trim said on Saturday there was a slough there which caused a great deal of this 
 offal to lodge and which cm used nmch sickness — there had been two cases of typhoid 
 fever and two deaths in his family and lie laid it to the offal. There are two canneries 
 close to his place. 
 
 Q. Would Mi-. Trim live athiut midway to Canoe Pass? — A. Near the shore — yes 
 aV)Out midway. Now, as I said l)efore the people all along the river have to use the 
 river water and the offal makes it very unwholesome and unfit for use — it tastes very 
 disagreeable. 
 
 Q. Are there no other means of getting water ? — A. No; they use rain water at 
 this season, but in sunmier season they are ol)liged to go to the river for water. Some 
 miles back there is water, and they are now trying for artesian water. 
 
 Q. Then, this trying for water is caused by the river water being impure ? — A. 
 Well, T may say I have been on the river many years, and if there had been any sick- 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 231 
 
 ness fornn'rly, T wouUl have known of it ; Imt tli«> siokn<'SH wiis some (listanoc away, and 
 on the whole shore I have never known ot' any cas.-s ot' fever in other parts of the 
 municipality. 
 
 C^. And the sickness is wholly on the shores of Westham Island, and along Cohilu- 
 tlian Sloiif^h and by the Canoe Pass and jiortions of land adjoininji the Kraser Uiver? — 
 A. Yes, sir. I supp«tse you are aware there are (|uit(! a l.irj,'e nuinl)er of people there — 
 the village of Ladner's Landing and all are (h*pending upon the water of the river. 
 
 Q. What is the population of the village of Ladner's Ltnding ,' About -'OU, [ 
 think we have heard ? A. \ es, about that. 
 
 Q. How is the village laid off? A. Tn town Ictts ; the farmers live very chtse to 
 the slough. Formerly there were no roads -all boating and they live on both sides of 
 the sKaigh. 
 
 ii. And along the shores of the Fraser River and on lM»th sides of Canoe Pass ? — 
 A. Yes, along Canoe Pa.ss. 
 
 Q. Ts the land level there? — A. Yes, pretty level -it is what we call marsh land 
 in New Brunswick. ^ 
 
 Q. Are there many prrs(ms living along Crescent Slough? A. Yes; it is well 
 settled up all along there -good farms. 
 
 <.^. Within the territory formed by Crescent Slough it is a sort of island that i.s 
 there formed, is it not? — A. Yes, all along there. 
 
 Q. And how many years have you lived there, Mr. Benson?— A. Seventeen years 
 — most of the time. 
 
 Q. And the locality where yt»u live has not been troubled with fevei' — typhoid ? -A. 
 No, all the eastern end of the municipality has been as healthy as any othei- part of 
 British Columbia, but in places where oti'al lodges along the shores, sickness has prevailed. 
 
 Q. Ts this sickness of many year's standing, or is it of recent growth ? — A. Well, 
 it seems to be getting worse lately — the last year was the worst we have ever had. 
 
 Q. Is this all the time or in the spring, or when the Hshing is over? — A. The sick- 
 ness generally commences in August. 
 
 Q. That would be the time When offal would be lodging largely? A. \'es, about 
 that time. 
 
 y. Well, offal that lodged the year previous -would it V)e wholly gone before the 
 following year- that is, tish heads, tails, itc, -would they remain / A. Oh, no; most 
 would wash away, and then there is a setlimentai-y matter that covers this offal up — it 
 settles hugely into the land. 
 
 Q. And ai'e you ijuite satisfied in your mind, so far as your knowledge goes, that 
 the sickness which prevails there so largely is attributable to offal making a lodgment 
 there ? — A. Yes, T think so. T may say I have seen reports here that some men have 
 called your attention to salmon that have died in the Fi-aser River after spawning, and 
 have tried to make out that is worse than or as bad as the offal. Now, there is no 
 fisherman on the Fraser River who has been up and ilown the rivei" more than T have, 
 and before the canneries were established I have been np nnd down the river very often. 
 I was in the lumbering business before, and in the sunmier of 1883 furnished all the 
 lumber for the bridges for the Canadian Pacific Railway, and was up the mountains and 
 on the Harrison River, and on the spawning beds a good deal, and was also f>n the 
 Columbia River years ago. Now, I don't think there are many salmon die in the river 
 nor on the spawning beds. F don't think there is much difference between the Hesh of 
 the salmon on the Atlantic coasts and here. I think the salmon's nature is to return to 
 the .sea, but in British Colundiia the rivers are so rugged and rough, you see tish with 
 pieces knocked out of them and in all manners of shapes, wounded, etc., aiid what tish 
 get into the Fraser River and die before they get to the spawning grounds are very few. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Are there not extensive sj)a\vning beds on the Fraser River? — A. Yes; but I 
 citm't suppose the tish thiit die at Fort George have anything to do with the water in the 
 Fraser River. The tish that die in the Canyon, etc., may, but if any man will go up and 
 watch them there is a great deal of difference. Now, in Silver Creek, that is 
 
232 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 P 
 
 comparatively speaking, for the first mile or two it does not run very fast, and there aie 
 some bars, itc, and it is a great place for salmon to spawn, and there are not near as 
 many salmon die there as in other parts. You take the sahnon where there are many 
 rocks and boulders — they seem to have hard work to get up, and they wear themseh es 
 out and many die there in trying to get up. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You think the habit of salmon is very similar to salmon in New Brunswick — 
 you think each river will have its own family of salmon ? — A. Yes ; each stream has 
 its own salmon— the Eraser has its own kind, but also every stream that enters into the 
 Fraser will also have its own tish. 
 
 Q. You are acquainted with the St. John River ?^the same thing takes place 
 there 1 — A. Yes ; the same thing takes place there. 
 
 Q. And the tish that go up farthest will become more protracted and exhausted '] 
 — A. Yes ; and in those places that are more rocky and have more boulders, tScc. 
 
 Q. And you think a greater amount of deaths will occur there and you think the 
 greater prostration, etc., causes their death ? — A. That is my opinion. 
 
 Q. And you are acquainted with the fact that the same thing occurs in the east ? 
 — A. Well, the rivers in the east cannot compare with these here in impediments for 
 the salmon to get up 
 
 Q. Then if there are a great many coming up do you think that more would die i 
 — A. Oh, yes ; certainly. 
 
 Q. And the few comparatively coming up in the eastern rivers makes it appear as 
 if few die whei-eas here on account of the immense numbers passing up the river it 
 would seem that a corre.spondingly large number died ? — A. Y'^es. 
 
 Q. And you think the tish that die do not affect the water as much as offal ? — A. 
 Oh, no ; the dead fish do not affect it as much. 
 
 Q. Have you seen many dead fish in this Cohiluthan 81ough ? — A. No ; I ha\ e 
 seen very few — they appear to have died in the Fraser River. 
 
 Q. They appear in better form than if they had died from rough usage ? — A. Y''es. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that — were they thrown away ? — A. Well, I don't 
 know — many have been thrown away in foi-mer years, but I don't think a great many 
 are now. 
 
 C^. But these fish- -you could tell l)y their appearance — would you think they were 
 thrown away fiom the canneries or by fishermen ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You have been here many years and know the inhabitants — did the inhabitants 
 before the cannery Ijusiness being carried on drink water from the river? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And were there any unhealthy effects ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. And you think the offal has* caused it now ? — A. Yes ; and there are certain 
 things that convince me in my opinion. Now Cohiluthan Slough is not as long as 
 Crescent Slough and there has been thi-ee times the sickness there as on Crescent 
 Slough, but there is a cannery right at the mouth of Cohiluthan Slough. 
 
 C^. Whose cannery is that ? — A. The Delta cannery. Now there has been more 
 sickness on that slough and around that slough than at any neighbourhood — thei-e, and 
 at Canoe Pass. 
 
 Q. And you attribute it to what cause ? - A. To the offal from that cannery — if 
 the sickness was general it wouhl be different, but it is not. As T told you, over towards 
 the bay and all tiie east enil of the municipality has been as healthy as anywhere else. 
 
 Q. And you think the tide carries otf'al up the slough and it rests there and con- 
 taminates water in the neighbourhood- that is your opinion? — A. Yes. 
 
 (J. Now, since you have gi\en information about the unhealthiness of offal and 
 heads of fisii, might T ask you this : You are acquainted thoroughly witii the fish they 
 call here tlie spi-ing salmon oi' "quinnat "' ? - A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have caught and seen great nu;nl)ers of them? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you studied theii- lial)its, etc. ? — A. To a certain degree ; I have noticed 
 them in the spawning beds and outside. 
 
 Q. Have you done the same thing on the St. John River 1 — A. Ye.s, sir. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION, 
 
 233 
 
 Q. What do you think of the gieat ^iniiliirity in the shape and size 1 Fur instance, 
 there is in the St. John River a sahnon caus^ht very nmoh like them, and in the Shu- 
 l)eiiacadie River in Nova Scotia I have caught sahnon veiy like sockeye, and then again 
 on the Restigouche there is a larger salmon. Do you know the Restigouche salmon very- 
 well? — A. Not very well ; I have seen many of them. 1 think there is not nmoh dif- 
 ference in salmon in the east and here as some people think 
 
 C^. Are you aware that even on the Atlantic coast tlit tish aie a little ditierent in 
 colour and .shape according to the rivei' where they go? — A. Yes; the .same thing is 
 here. 
 
 Q. And you think tShuhenacadie .salmon very like sockeye? -A. It is very like 
 sockeye. 
 
 Q. And the meat, is it the same ? — A. Yes ; I ate some three or four years ago, 
 and I thought it nmch the same. 
 
 Q. What do you think about the humpl)ack .salmon, sir? -A. Well, they are dif- 
 ferent tish from others, yet of the salmon family. They are decidedly difl'erent, juul an 
 iiiferioi' tish. T have always thought, tiitmgh, the}- were made for the Indian (laughter.) 
 
 Q. A very wise provision of natuie T must sixy, if .sockeyes are for canners and 
 humpbacks for Indians. What <lo you think of cohoes? — A. Oh, the cohnes are very 
 good salmon. 
 
 Q. And you are satisfied that a fair proportion of the salmon that go up to breed 
 return to sea again ?- -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. An impi'ession seems" to prevail here, and has been handed down, that the 
 salmon all die, but from the evidence we have received I think that idea has been dis- 
 aliused? — A. A gre'at juany of course die, l)ut not all. 
 
 Q. Have you noted the spring .'^alinon at the time of spawning ? A. ^rany of 
 them — yes. 
 
 Q. Does the male have that peculiar hook on the jaw like Atlantic .salmon? I am 
 asking this for information, and bi'cause .so many people contend they ai'e quite ditier- 
 ent ? — A. T think they have, but I have not handled any only to see. You see it is 
 2C years .since I caught .salmim in the St. John River. 
 
 (^. Yes ; well, it is a well known fact that all male salmon have a pi'ojection on 
 tlie jaw, and I have asked you .so as to show that if so the tish hei-e are vir'tuaily the 
 same but changed Ijy climatic effects. Ha\e you any suggestions you would like to make 
 tu avert these effects you complain of? -A. Well, 1 don't know, except it (the oflal) was 
 made into oil or manure. 
 
 <.^. And has anything in that direction lieen carried out in your neighlxjurhood ? — 
 A. There is a small factory started down near us, but 1 never went <t\er to see it. 
 
 Q. Have the products i)een used from it? A. Well, I don't know much about it. 
 
 Q. There is a good deal of oil used in the luml)ering business ; ha\eyou e\ erused the 
 oil in skidding, ifec. ? — A. When i was Uunbei'ing there was none of this fish oil u.setl ; 
 we used dog-fish oil. 
 
 Q Is there much used in this country? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What is the usual price of the dog-fish oil that you use/ — A. T used to pay 
 about ."io cents for it. 
 
 C^. Do you know enough about dog-fish oil and oil made from oti'al, to say if it is as 
 goitd? — A. I think the .salmon (»il ought to be as gootl, but I ha\e never u.^ed it. 
 
 (}. About the fertilizer— have you used it ? A. I have not used it. but fish numure 
 of any kind is very strong and ought to Im- good. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of its value here? -A. No : 1 don t know. 
 
 Q. If a large factory ^vere put up. do you think the prodiu-ts could lie utilized f — 
 A. Well, it would not perhaps at first, l>m 1 think it could be done when introduced. 
 
 Q. What say you in regard to the close .season for fishing on the Fra.ser River ? 
 Men like you are suppctsed to speak pretty well the tone of those under you ? .\. I 
 think there should lie a close season. 
 
 (.}. And the Sunday do you think it should beke}it?-A. Yes. 1 think so I 
 think the whole of Suiulay shmUd be kept. 
 
 Q. For the reasons that it would not oidy have a moral tendency towards the 
 pciople over whom you rule, but also would allow the ti^h to get up tlie ri\er ,*— A. Yes, sir. 
 
234 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Have ytnj ever taken notice of the hatchery and its ett'ects on this river 1 — A. 
 Not since it has been established. I have not been much on the river — I have been 
 more around home and cannot give an opinion. 
 
 Q. Now, as an old resident, what are your views as to giving licenses on this river 1 
 Should they be given to every British subject and resident fishermen ? — A. I think so, 
 and for this reason it has been very hard to regulate licenses on this river. A man 
 may come here from Nova Scotia or Newfoundland w^th his family to start fishing and 
 then be unable to procure a license. They should get licenses, and I think if every 
 British subject got a license, it would regulate itself. 
 
 Q. If he got a license, should he be allowed to transfer it 1 — A. I think he should 
 be the real owner, and I do not think it right to transfer licenses. 
 
 Q. Could you give us an opinion as to the average size of sockeye? — A. I think, 
 about six pounds. 
 
 Q. Do they vary in size— some years over others ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And would that be the average size of weight, then ? — A. I suppose it would 
 be about the averago size. 
 
 Q. Are yt)U prepared to give an opinion as to whether canneries should get all the 
 licenses they want to fish. Suppose a cannery wanted a hundred should they get them 1 
 — A. T don't think i".. 
 
 Q. What are your views tas to how to ecjualize this between canneries and fisher- 
 men? — A. T think ten licenses would fairly eciualize matters. 
 
 Q. Do you meai\ by that, if a canner got ten licenses he could always do a fair 
 business with his own boats and could rely upon fishermen for the rest? —A. Yes,! 
 think so. 
 
 Q. Do you think the number of canneries should be estcablished on a fixed number, 
 or should any man get licenses therefor that wished it ? — A. T think any man who 
 wisiied to put up a cannery should have the privilege of doing so, and he should at least 
 get ten licenses — they should, however, run the canneries put up and not put them up 
 to get licenses. 
 
 Q. liona fide for carrying on work ? — A. Yes, an actual place of business for carry- 
 ing on the work intended. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Have you any rivers in the east, inhabited by salmon, tluit have a number 
 of stieanis and lakes emptying into them, which would form the spawning grounds for 
 .salnutn anything in like proportion to what the Fraser River has? — A. No, sir ; for 
 instance, the St. John Itiver is jterhaps the greatest river we have. There are many 
 lakes, but the fisii cannot get beyond the falls. The Fraser River has the greatest 
 facilities <»f any river T know of, even greater than the ColumVna River. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Have you any records of what took place on the St. John River 100 years ago? 
 — A. Only what iny folks have told me. 
 
 Q. What is it? A. That salmon were very plentiful years ago. 
 
 Q. Have you not heard that the salmon were so thick 100 years ago that you could 
 not cross the stream (»ii account of it ? — A. I have been told they were extremely 
 numerous and plentiful. 
 
 Mr. Aim.sTHox(i. — Are there any salmon in the St. Lawrence? 
 
 Mr. AVii.MOT. T may say that some years ago the whole of the St. Lawrence and 
 Lake Ontario were teeming with salmon. Tn my lifetime, sir, I have known the salmon 
 so plentiful in the streams running into Lake Ontario, that on my own farm near New- 
 castle, Out., T have known the pigs to go down to the stream and catch them and eat 
 them, they were so plentiful. 
 
 Mr. AinisTHONVi. Yes ; well, T have heard from a friend of mine that in the place 
 where lie came from the hogs used to go down and catch the fish without wetting their 
 eyebrows. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. WiLMoT. You think that a fish story, eh? Oh, yes ; we had plenty of salmon, 
 but theie are'none there now. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 235 
 
 ■iver ? — A. 
 heave been 
 
 this river] 
 [ think so, 
 •. A man 
 ishing and 
 i if every 
 
 he should 
 
 L. I think, 
 
 le it woukl 
 
 get all the 
 get them ? 
 
 md fisher- 
 
 s do a fair 
 A. Yes, r 
 
 d number, 
 ' m'ln who 
 Id at least 
 It them up 
 
 i for carry- 
 
 a number 
 rounds for 
 <>, sir ; for 
 
 are many 
 e "reatest 
 
 ^ears ago / 
 
 you could 
 exti'emely 
 
 rence and 
 he salmon 
 lear NeM'- 
 1 and eat 
 
 the place 
 ting their 
 
 if salmon, 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Benson, I think we have gone over the ground pretty well with you. 
 Is there anything further you woukl wish to state? — A. No, nothing further. I have 
 told you, I think, all I wish to say. 
 
 It being 12..30 p.m. o'clock, the Chairman declared the Commission adjourned, to 
 meet again at the same place at 1.30 p.m. 
 
 New Westmixstek, B.C., 1st March, 1882. 
 
 AJteravon Session. 
 
 The Commission was convened at the Court-hou.se at 1.30 p.m. 
 
 Present : — Mr. Chairman Wilmot, Mr. Sheriff Armstrong, and Mr. Secretary 
 Winter. 
 
 JOHN KIRKLAXD, of Ladner's Landing, a native of England, living in British 
 Columbia for some 20 years, having moved there fi-om Ontario, a farmer, and one of the 
 l»elegates to the Commission from the Municipality of Delta, was duly sworn 
 
 Jhj Mr. Wilnwt : 
 
 Q. Well, sir ; anything you would like to communicate to the Commission we will 
 he very glad to hear. — A. As to my knowledge of tish I might tell you something, but 
 1 wish to speak in regard to what I have seen as a resident at Cohiluthan 81ough and 
 the Delta. Ever since the tanneries have been established on the rivei', we who reside 
 DU the Slough have been put to very great inconvenience by the oft'al which with the tide 
 ebbs and tlows up the slough. The water from the slough we have had to use for 
 culinary purposes, and I have frecjuently in going to the slough for water have had to 
 stir the water for some little distance to get away the oily substances and it was some- 
 times impossible to dip up water without getting some entrails of fish. I may say prior 
 to the establishment of canneries we weie free from typhoid entirely as; far as my 
 memory serves. It was not long after the establishment oi the canneries l)etore the 
 tyi>hoid came amongst us. One of my own family was amongst them — he didn't die 
 but was taken down witji typhoid. Last year though has been the worst we have 
 f'X[)erienced and during "91 some deaths have occurred thei-e. The water in flowing up 
 the slough flows up for about one and a half miles and then the flood-gate prevents it 
 from going any further and it recedes more slowly from the upper end than from the 
 lowei' end and often the whole bodies of the fish and entiails will be caught on brush at 
 tiie sides of the .slough and be retained there and create a bad stench. 
 
 Q. Offensive to the smell as well 1 — A. Oh yes ; <»ffensive to the smell and injurious 
 to the general health of people living there. 
 
 Q. And that appears to be the unanimous opinion there? — A. Yes, the unanitnous 
 opinion our petition would indicate that. It is the general opinion of parties living 
 along there that it is detrimental to the general health. 
 
 t^. You are not living there now ?- A. No, not exactly, l)ut I am there all along — 
 my family is in Victoria. 
 
 Q. And was it on account of this illness you moved your family away ? — A. Oh, 
 no ; my wife's illness was such T was obliged to take liei' away for the lienefit of her 
 liraltli. 
 
 Q. Were there any cases of other diseases, ilysentery. itc. ? — A. Usually we are not 
 tiouble<l with such but thei'e were some cases last summer. 
 
 (.^. Was it assigned to the cause of using foul watei' in the neighbourhood, stench, 
 <'tc. t — A. That was the impression settlers had. 
 
 Q. Then upon the whole you are satisfied that the castinir in of offal in such (|Uanli- 
 tics that make lodgments along t!ie slough are prejudicial in every way to health l~ A. 
 i am satisfied as to that. 
 
 i 
 
4 
 
 236 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Has it prevented immigration and settlement there that otliei-wise may hav 
 taken phiee ? "A. Well, we had so many cases last summer that it is heifinning to tel 
 and I think it would be injurious in more ways than one. 
 
 Q. Is there any evidence of families leaving on account of it? — -A. No, I cannot 
 say any ever left on account of it. 
 
 Q. Has it any effect on the disposal and value of land there ? — A. Well, that is 
 what I mean by saying injui'ious in more ways than one— there have been no sales tak 
 ing place there lately, l)iit I cannot express any definite opinion on that. 
 
 Q. All along the slough where the inhabitants \i\e — is it far up fi'om the edge ot 
 the slough ? — A. No, when first settled the people built close to the water for purposes 
 of getting to the water. 
 
 Q. Then the water was very convenient there was it? — A. Yes, we had tanks tn 
 keep water and then it was convenient to go with scows, Arc. 
 
 Q. And that convenience as far as water is concei-ned has been very materially 
 effected by the cause you have assigned? — A. Oh, yes; we do not use the water any 
 more than we can help now. 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed the effects of this water upon cows — upon the milk at 
 all ? — A. I cann<)t say that it has. 
 
 i}. We have had it stated that it affected the milk and that hogs are affected l)y 
 it ^ — A. We do not allow our pigs to run down to the slough. 
 
 Q. Do you know that pigs will he affected by the matter they eat ? Have you 
 ever had pigs that fed on beech nuts ? — A. Yes, it makes the meat soft and if pigs eat 
 fish it will destroy the marketable value of the poi-k. 
 
 Q. The reason T a.sk about the cows is because it is well kno^ii by medical men 
 and others that milk is often a means of carrying disease? — A. I may say, as far as I 
 am individually concerned, we do not keep a dairy at all — we mei-ely milk cows for our 
 own use — but if I kept a large number of cows my attention would prol)ably be drawn 
 to it more fully. 
 
 Q. Have you thoug-:*^ of any means of getting rid of this offal by manufacturing 
 it ? — .A. I have not given it much attention myself— there is a small establishment near 
 by where they manufactured fertilizers iind oil from this offal. I think it would be a 
 good thing if it could be manufactured. 
 
 Q. It is an experimental thing -that is as yet .' — A. Yes, — I think if it was maiui- 
 factuifd to any extent they would probably Ije obliged to seek a foreign market — the 
 land here hardly needs it. 
 
 Q. But it would be a good fertilizer would It not? — A. Oh, I think so — Mr. 
 Spratt, of Vict<iria, I think received a medid from one of the exhil)iti<>ns for his ]>ro- 
 duct from fish offal, etc. He made it at Vancouver. 
 
 ii Where the herring was pressed? — A. Yes : of course a similaifiuality would be 
 made I should think from the oti'al of the salmon. 
 
 (,>. I notice that some of the authorities of Ontario have been experimenting on 
 this same offal and are quite of the opininn that it could be made quite a very use- 
 ful fertilizer ? — A. It seems to me that failing to utilize it for fertilizer purposes, it 
 would l)e better to cremate it rather than dun^pit in the sea. 
 
 i^. That is as showing that it wsis injudicious to put in the water? — A. Yes, it 
 pollutes the air and is a very nasty thing to have cast upon the shore anywhere. 
 
 Q. Has an attempt been made at cremation here at ail ? — A. Not that I am aware of. 
 
 <.^>. It is the first time that we have liearJ. of the cremation of the offal and it 
 strikes me as a very feasible way of getting rid of it. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. Arnis/roiti/ ■ 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of a case or way of doing this ? - A. No: but the sawmills 
 here, they burn up the sawdust and refuse. T think the heads, etc., would help in jtur- 
 pose of cremation. 
 
 C^. Do you think the close .season in taking in the whole .Sab))ath a judicious plea 
 for upholding morality and religious views as well a>- letting the fish pa.ss up ?— A. *0h 
 certaiiUy, yes. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HKRY COMMISSION. 
 
 237 
 
 I 
 
 Q. Have you formed any opinion of the effects of artificial breeding of fish on this 
 •iver? — A. No sir, T have not thought much al)out that. 
 
 Q. Should every individual Britisli suhjeet and resident get a license ? — -A. I have 
 iimergiv^i the subject any particular consideration — T should think though, were T a 
 tisherman and had brought my family here, that it was a great hardship if I could not 
 <,'Ht licenses. 
 
 Q. And would you apply that same view to a man who came here and put up a 
 (iinnery— should he get a fair proportion of boats? — A. Oh yes, if not, it would be a 
 uinnopoly. 
 
 Q. And you think there should be no monopoly but an ecjualization as mucli as 
 pnssible? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would whole tish come in the slough — would they be partly tlecomposed or 
 \\ hole tish ? — A. I have seen whole ii-^h come in but not so much as some yeare ago. 
 
 Q. Regarding the fish that die far up the river have you any knowledge as to 
 w liether tish dying in such numbers would affect this slough of yours ? — A. Well, I 
 think not, because before the canneries were estaVdished it was unconnnon to see them 
 in the slough at all. 
 
 Q. But since the construction of the canneries you have seen whole fish as well as 
 otfal ? — A. I have seen them, but not so nuich of late years. 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. — Well, Mr. Kirkland, I don't know as we have any more to ask 
 you — your object is mainly to petition against the continuance of offal being thrown in 
 the river. 
 
 By Mr. Ammtrony : 
 
 Q. The present close season from 6 o'clock Saturday morning to G o'clock Sunday 
 evening — now do you think that should be changed? — A. Well, I never really gave 
 much c(msideration to that subject. 
 
 Q. Well, this is a matter seiiously effecting the canneries. The cannerymen claim 
 that unless they are allowed to fish on Sunday night they would have scarcely any tish 
 to work with on Monday morning, and so would have their employees idle and wf)uld 
 lose much time. We would like to have your opinion as to what people think gener- 
 ally ? — A. Well, it is hard to make a cast-iron rule — speaking generally I think the 
 Sabbath should be observed as much as possible. 
 
 • would be 
 
 By Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. Then you think the whole Sabbath should be kept if 
 think so ; I should like to see it if possibh.'. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to ask, Mr. Armstrong ? 
 
 Mr. Armsthong. — No, nothing more. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT (to witness). — -Thank you, sir; that is all. 
 
 e ?— A. Yes, I 
 
 W. H. LADNP^H, a delegate re offal nuisance from the municipality of Delta, a 
 native of England, resident of Ladner's Landing, B.C., since June, iStJS, and living in 
 l>iitish Columbia since May, 1(S58, a farmei-, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Ul/mof. : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Ladner, if you have any suggestions to make upon this (|ue,stion, upon 
 which yttu have been sent here as a, delegate, nv any other matter, we will be glad to 
 hear you.— A. Well, I may mention, as regards tiie offal question, I have been as great 
 a sufferer as any other in the country. T lived there for years befoi-e there was a 
 cannery, and we considered we were living in as healthy a place as anywhere. Then 
 we had no sickness to speak of, but since the canneries were established it has l)eeii 
 increasing. I have read evidence gi.en here as to depositing otfal in deep watei', but it 
 will not do to put it in the water, because the tide ebl)s and flows and the matter will 
 
238 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 l.i.m 
 
 be brought back. The tide eb))s and flows twice in twenty-four hours ; if the ofFal 
 could l)e kept in deep water, I don't think it would afl'ect us very mucli, but its float 
 ability is such that it must rise to the surface sometimes ; and then there is so niucli 
 
 scum rising from it. 
 
 Q. Then, do you think the deposition of offal as at present practiced is injurious tu 
 the health of your neighbourho(xl ?--A. I most certainly think so. 
 
 Q. Well, then if thrown in deep water— it would sink ? Well, suppose it did 
 sink, and all the canneries thiew it in the river, would it cleanse the water down at your 
 section ? — A. A great deal of it would even then come in — not as much as if in the imme- 
 diate neighlx)urhood, l)ut some would come. 
 
 Q. And throwing it out affects your neighbourhood seriously ? — A. It does. 
 
 Q. What diseases ? — A. Typhoid fever, particulai'ly. 
 
 Q. And is this fault just at one slough, or are persons living farther away affected 
 as much as persons living along the slough ? — A. I have not heard of a single case of 
 typhoid fever excej)t along Canoe Pass, Cohilnthan Slough, and what we call Woodward 
 Slough. 
 
 Q. And how aljout Ciescent Slough ? — A. I have not heard of any complaints 
 from that one ; I li\ e a mile and a half from it, but have not heard of any complaints 
 from there. 
 
 Q. Then do I understantl you that unhealthiness prevails from this offal, and it 
 is unwholesome and injurious to have it put in the water? — A. I do think so. Now, we 
 are JiflFerently si' ^ated to almost any other place in the country. I have tried to drive an 
 Abysinian pipe d >wn there to get water, but I was not successful ; we have had to take 
 the river water. 
 
 Q. What effect have you noticed on your stock 1 — A. Well, we only keep just 
 enough for the house, but if we had good water I think we would have gone into dairy 
 work, but those who have gone into it have given it up. 
 
 (j. Whi't kind of ground have you there? — A. It is all alluvial deposits entirely 
 
 Q. Do y >u think this oHal could he made into oil or fertilizer 1 — A. I have seen 
 some barrels )f oil, and also .some of the dry stuff, and I have thought it quite equal to 
 the foreign guano we used to get in the old country. 
 
 Q. And you think fertilizer manufactured at this factory (juite equal to fertilizer 
 you have seen in England ? — A. Yes, I do ; and you have spoken of cremating it — now, 
 do you not think it would be unwise to burn up all that valuable nuitter when good 
 fertilizer could l)e made foi- use in this country ? 
 
 Q. Yes ; but the law says it must not be thrown into the I'iver, and it is f<jr the 
 canneries them.selves to say how they will best dispose of it ; it is for this Commission 
 to find out if the throwing in is prejudicial or otherwise. — ^A. I think Mr. Connnissi(mei' 
 Armstrong, sir, might give you some information as to what his opinion is, by and by, 
 Ijecause he has Iteen visiting my house during the fishing season, and his evidence 
 would bo more valuable than mine as to the effects of thi'owing in this ottal into the 
 river. 
 
 Q. I am afraid we would not ha\e a quorum if he left his place at the board. — A. 
 What I meant to say was that at smne future time he would be able to give you 
 valuable information on this (|uestion. 
 
 Q. Have you ever consideied the question of clost- season? Whether tishing on 
 Sunday is a judicious movement or not? — A. Well, I think it is the general opinion 
 that a certain time in the week should be observed as a close season. 
 
 Q. For what puipose? — ^A. Well, in both the cause of morality as well as tlic 
 interests of fishing and those engaged in it. 
 
 Q. Then from your long residence here, experience, etc., and the difliculties tliat 
 have arisen here lately l)etween the canners and fishermen — what are your views as to 
 an equitable adjustment of the licenses? Would it be right for every British subject 
 and Hshenaan to get licenses ? — A. Yes : I think every fisherman who can equip him- 
 self and is a resident British sul)ject, should get a license. 
 
 Q. And as 
 certainly, sir. 
 
 between the canners, should they get licenses too? — A. Most 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHEBT COMMISSION. 
 
 239 
 
 s injurious tu 
 
 Q. Then as between the oanners and the tislieiiuen — what would l>e an efjuitahle 
 iirrangeniont as between them ? -A. I would not like to express an opinion on that. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many l)oats are required to i-un a i-anneiy ? — A. No ; it is 
 not in my line of business - I do not know excejjt from heai-say. 
 
 Q. Have you evei' noticed many dead fish floating down the river or coming into 
 this .slough 1 — A. A few, sir. 
 
 Q. Would they l)e tish that died far up — up as far as Harrison Ri\er or above ? — 
 A. Well, I think they are spent tish — they liave spawned and are making their way to 
 sea again. 
 
 Q. Those would be living tish — I mean dead ones ? — A. I have seen a few, sir. 
 
 Q. Then about the tish that go up- do they all die ?- A. Well, T could not say— I 
 have not given that subject much consideration — T have seen many coming down. I 
 would ask whether the Commission has power to take into consitleration the jmllution 
 (if rivers. 
 
 Q. Why, are we thus far and our object not known ? As T .said before, the Govern- 
 ment has thought proper to appoint this Commission to investigate the qutstion of 
 throwing offal into this rivei" ? — A. Does that refer oidv to fish offal 1 
 
 Q. No ; everything relating to the fisheries in Bi-itish Columbia.- A. Well, then, 
 in the case of sewage being thrown into the river, what action would the Government 
 take ? 
 
 Q. Well, T would think if it was brought l)efoi'e this Ctmimission we would be 
 hound to take it up — the i-iver is, I suppose, affected l)y this sewage — also the fisheries. 
 — A. Yes : I happened to notice the other day when T was in Victoria, they were dig- 
 ging a sewer near the Hudson Bay stores, and that sewer could ha^e lieen taken in two 
 rods into the harbour of Victoria whereas they were taking it out some two or three 
 miles, so tiiere must be .some reason foi- not running that into the liay and instead 
 taking it away out. 
 
 Q. Then you mean that there nmst tje some reason for not letting it go into the 
 Iiaibour on account of it fouling the waters, etc. ? — A. Yes, sir ; I don't think perhaps 
 that it is a niattei- of veiy gieat im})ortance, but we may not have a man here again for 
 some years, and I have thought it might l)e a matter for consideration. 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; the matter has been taken down, and I have no doubt it will receive 
 the considei'ation of the Conunission. 
 
 CHARLES F. GREEN, a native of England, a resident of Ladner's Landing 
 iind living in British Columbia since iS'Jii, a farmei", and Fishery Guardian fur the 
 District of the Lower Fraser during the summer season, was duly sworn. 
 
 £{/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Green, what may you have to .say upon the fisheries question ? -A. 
 Do you wish my views as guardian or as a private individual. 
 
 Q. As a private individual, but if you have anything as guardian you may put it in 
 besides. — A. Well, of course the way T got mixed up with the offal business is through 
 leports — reporting it to the Inspector at his i-ecjuest. Tn lf<87 there was a disturbance 
 made about the offal, and T was asked by Mr. ^lowat to report — it is in the Blue-book 
 for lf<87. 
 
 (i. As concisely as possible what were your views then ? — A. That it was deti'i- 
 niental to tish, and to try to estal)Iish an oil factoiy, the credit for which T take some 
 to myself. 
 
 t^. You have heard the evidence of the three delegates — do you corrol)orate that 
 evidence I — A. Yes, sir: the Delta cannery being innnediately on a corner of the slough, 
 when the tide comes in the offal must come up the slough — it cannot go anywhere else. 
 An oil factory was started and T tried to help the man all I could, so much so that I 
 sent samples to Ottawa and had it analyzed — this is his reply (handing document to 
 chairman) — I sent as good a sample, about 5 pounds, as I could get a hold of. 
 

 240 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot then rejid from the docinnent handed him as follows : — 
 Laboratory of the Dominion Expkrimental, Farms, 
 
 Ottawa, oth Sept., 1889. 
 C. F. Green, E.s(|., 
 
 Ladner's Landing, 15. C. 
 
 Dear Sir, — I now take pleasure in sending you my report on the tish waste or 
 refuse from the salmon canning factory forwarded by you for examination in June last. 
 Chemical analysis affords the following data : — 
 
 Water 519 
 
 Organic matter 4G • 99 
 
 Ash or Mineral matter 47 • S2 
 
 100 00 
 
 Nitrogen in organic matter ."J • 47 
 
 Mineral matter soluble in water 114 
 
 do do dilute acid 40 • 98 
 
 do insoluble in acid (clay and sand) 5-70 
 
 J7;82 
 
 Potash ^69 
 
 Phosphorid Acid, soluble • 12 
 
 do reverted 9 29 
 
 do insoluble 819 
 
 Total Phosphoric Acid ; J7 • 60 
 
 Valuation per 2,000 lbs. : 
 
 Soluble Phosphoric Acid (7i cts.) -S 1 80 
 
 Reverted do {7"cts.) 13 00 
 
 Insoluble do (5 cts.) 8 19 
 
 Nitrogen (15 "f .) 10 41 
 
 Potash (5 cts.) 76 
 
 $34_16 
 
 " This is evidently a very valuable fertilizer and one of special value as a manure 
 for wheat and other grain crops, or for application to soils poor in Phosphoric Acid and 
 Nitrogen. The ' Reverted ' Phosphoric Acid, though not immediately assimilable by 
 plants, is more oi- less easily rendered so in the soil, hence its value is but little below 
 that of the ' Soluble ' form. The notable quantity of Nitrogen this fish refuse contains 
 makes this fertilizer one of general application — the Nitrogen being in a form very valu- 
 able as plant food." 
 
 I have the honour to be, itc, 
 
 (Sgd.) FRANK T. SHUTT, M.A.. F.I.C., 
 
 Chemist^ Dominion E-iptrhnental Farms. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Have you anything to do with the present oil factory? — A. I never had any- 
 thing to do in a money way but I took great interest in it. 
 
 Q. Have you any experience in the use of the fertilizer made from this offal ? — A. 
 I have watched expei'iments. 
 
 Q. Well, what was the result ? — A. It is very strong — it will burn through a piece 
 of paper unless diluted. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 241 
 
 , 1889. 
 
 >h waste or 
 II June last. 
 
 19 
 
 ^9 
 <'2 
 
 OO 
 47 
 14 
 
 [)8 
 70 
 
 S-2 
 
 B9 
 
 1-J 
 29 
 19 
 
 60 
 
 50 
 
 )0 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 a manure 
 
 Acid and 
 
 niilable by 
 
 ttle Vjelow 
 
 se contains 
 
 very valu- 
 
 ar))is. 
 
 r liad any- 
 
 i.ffal ?— A. 
 gh a piece 
 
 Q. Well, but do you use it in a dry or raw state? — A. Well, tiie troul)le witli this 
 man is, he cannot dry it proiterly — he has no kiln. I have asked liim how many Hsli it 
 take.s to I'.ake these pioducts and it takes 1,S00 sockeye offal ta make a forty giiUun keg 
 ot' oil, and then as to the tertilizei- — Ik; took the otl'al fi'om four canneries all season, from 
 the proceeds of that to make .■5,.")00 gallons of oil, and tlie manure from the same is t((ual to 
 thirty-Hve tons. This is his own statement to me. The oil factory is at present I am 
 sorry to say a failure he cannot get rid of his oil. I have sent samples to all the logging 
 camps in the country and acted a.s sort of agent for him, but they will not have it at all 
 — -it hi's not body enough. It will not grease the skids except for once or so—they use 
 the dog-tish oil mixed with other matter. They say the dog-tish oil is Ijetter than this 
 otlal oil, and at present the oil factoi-y is comparatively a failure. And I may say that 
 it is just o])posite my house and I get the full benetit of it the smell is frightful — a 
 skunk is almost <'(m-de-cid<ign>' to it. 
 
 Q. It does duty in giving aroma instead of strength I expect ? — A. It is a frightful 
 place -I could not stand it. 
 
 Q. But, from what you know do ycm think an oil factory established on the best 
 possible piinciples as now known, that it could be made to pay ? — A. Well, you see there 
 is so much conunon oils, and if they say this oil is too thin, why \ don't see how it could 
 d... 
 
 Q. How is t)il from dog-tish made? — A. They simply take the liver from them and 
 it makes a thicker oil that has nnjre strength than this oil. 
 
 Q. Ar^ dog-tish so numerous they take only the livers from them to make oil .' -A. 
 Well, it is generally made in f'uall quantities. 
 
 t^. What are the size of these dogfish? — A. Oh, about as l)ig as sjiring salmon. 
 This man at the oil factory used to work on the Columbia lliver and he tells me that 
 there it takes only ten heads of spi'ing salmon to make a gallon of oil- they only use the 
 heads there — and after the 10th of June it would I'equire at least one-third more to make 
 tiie same quantity -but I believe they have given it up there as they found it would not 
 jiay either. 
 
 (j. Then do you consider it judicious tliat ofl'al should be thrown into the river? — • 
 A. No, I dcm't ; I think there are some canneries on the river where it does not liui't, 
 l)ut at others I think it does. 
 
 i.l. Well, take the question on its general merits — is it injurious to tish and health ? 
 — A. Well, I would certaiidy say that around Ladners Landing it is injurious ; per- 
 sonally, T may say I am not affected at all, as T am out of reach of it, but I get all the 
 benefit of tlui oil factory. I am sorry to see tiiis industiy does n(jt pay, as I have taken 
 much interest in it. 
 
 Q. Well, l)ut many industries do not pay at first ; I suppose his ojiei'ations aie just 
 experimental yet ? — A. Well, he has been at it 3 or 4 years I think. 
 
 Q. What do you tliink of the Sunday close time ? — A. Well, if the close time is 
 altered from being other than at present, the canneries would have to work just the 
 same ; if altered from Saturday morning the canneries would have to put up tish on 
 Sunday. 
 
 Q. Well, if the close time were mad(i from G o'clock Saturday morning to 12 o'clock 
 Sunday night? — A. Well, that would be the worst of all from a guardians point of view. 
 No man livinji could look after these outside fishermen. 
 
 Q. J5ut you must leave aside the guardian's view ; do you think it advisable for all 
 concerned that all of Sunday should be kejtt ? -A. Well, that would concern me too, 
 and if I remain an officer there I would certainly not want to see the close time ex- 
 tended to 12 o'clock Sunday night. 
 
 Q. Oh, throw yourself aside ; do you think it advisable that the whole Sabl)ath 
 should be kept ofoidy half of it ? A. From woi'k in canneries or from fishing? 
 
 Q. Any way you like to put it, sir ? — A. Well, if you give me the other end of it 
 I may get at what you want. 
 
 1.1. Well, it is at present from G o'clock Saturday morning to G o'clock Sunday 
 evening ; now, if put at 12 o'clock Sunday night would it not be for the best interests 
 of the fishing industry ? — -A. Well, that is very hard for me to answer, because I kn^jw 
 so nmch about it. 
 
 lOc— Iri 
 
•2J2 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 (}. Well, all the uuti'c reason why you should answer it?- (Laughter) A. Well, I 
 know hi)w the niorality point is h»okecl at under the present (5 o'cloek system, and I 
 know what it woultl lie like it' the 12 ocloek were made. 
 
 (^», J lave you never met men who would not fish on [Sunday ? — A. Only four of them, 
 sir : they eanu- frinu Newfoundland ; they are the only ones T ever met nn the Kraser 
 liiver. I say, keep Sunday as far as gning to ehurch, etc., hut T know 1 hase to work 
 most all of Sunday anyway. 
 
 By Mr. Artnstrony : 
 
 (}. You thiidv it should not be changed, then? -A. No; T think the present time 
 quite right. 
 
 (^). lUit how about making it to 6 oVlock .Moiulay morning? -A. N(» ; that would 
 be too long a close season : 1 jjrefer to kee]> it as it is now. 
 
 />'// J/)-. WUiiiof : 
 
 i). Who should (•l)tain licenses every I Sritish subject and actual fisherman ? A. 
 Yes ; my opinion is just sonu'thing like this that the canneries should have a certain 
 amount, and then if the river is thrown open I think the matter would regulate itself. 
 
 i). And what i\umber would you give canneries? — A. Well, about the same as now. 
 
 (^). Then, with '20 licenses for the canneries that will be in existence this year - 
 that would be 500 licenses? —A. Well, 1 would throw open the whole river to the fish- 
 ermen : the matter would regulate itself -it would l)e a ca.se of "the survival of the 
 fittest." 
 
 (^. But which would it be, thecanners or the fishermen? — A. AN'ell, neaily all the 
 canneries employ a certain numbei' of outside boats now the matter would regulate 
 itself. 
 
 (i>. Is there anything else, sii', you wish to say? A. Well, 1 have heard many 
 state al)out the average of the sockeye. 1 have weighed .some and find the average 
 weight about 7 pounds and that I think would make about 4 or o cans. From a large 
 j)ile of sockeye T j)icked one that weigiied 7 pounds out of thousands and aftei' cleaning 
 it weighed only 4.', pounils, anil the same style of fish that was there took 11 j to the 
 case — of coui'se they do not all run alike — some run 9 to the ca.se — I found 11| — some- 
 times as high as 13— in sonu^ yeai's the fisli are larger and it goes 9 to the ca.se — pei'haps 
 this vear they will go ai)out 9— they are always larger in a poor season. 
 
 ((). Have you been up the Harrison River? A. Not as a Guardian. 
 
 (,). What about fi.sh dying do all die ? A. Well, that T think is practically unknown. 
 
 Q. Have you ever .seen fish coming down in a dying condition, etc. ?-- Well, last 
 year I took a boat out and tried with a net to see if there were any fish in the river and 
 I did not get a sockeye at all there were a few cohoes but no .sockeyes. 
 
 Q. When the sockeyes are coming in plentifully have you ever seen them on the 
 surface of the water? — A. Well, 1 have seen a few ; on the mooidight nights you will 
 .see them just on top of the water. 
 
 Q. flight there not be thousands of fish down in the water going back ? — A. Oh, 
 there might be, but as I .said I tried it this time and could not get any — T would rather 
 not give an o})inion as T really don't know. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the hatchery ? — A. T think it a perfect success as far as 
 it goes. 
 
 Q. As far as it goes greatei- than the oil factory? — A. Y'^es. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Arinsfron;/ : 
 
 Q. How many miles are you supposed to guard ? — A. About 20 miles. 
 
 Q. What have you to do it with? — A. Nothing but a boat. 
 
 Q. And nobody but yourself? — A. Nobody — and if I hire help T have to pay him 
 myself. 
 
 Q. And do you think one man can protect that .stretch of river? — A. Oh, no; not 
 at all — I have had men turn round and fish after I have passed them. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA HsHERT COMMISSION. 2-i'S 
 
 llii Mr. W'lfinot : 
 Q. TIhmi tilt' <fU!ircliaiislii|> is no use? A. (>h, nu ; T would iidt say that. 
 
 J<;/ Mi\ Arnisfroni/ : 
 
 Q. Art" there many violations of ihe law down there ? -A. Yes, they u'o away out 
 and Hsh, but what can I do with a little Ixmt it is very hard work and I have lu'eii* 7 
 liciurs Lcettini,' from the mouth of the I'iver l)ai'k home 
 
 (^. Do you think the river eould he well "guarded if you had an assistant? — A. Of 
 rourse, it would always help I can <fo down the rivei- hut the trouble is to ^'et back. 
 
 (^. Well, wli;it do you think necessary to ])roi)eily j,'uard the rivei' ?- A. A small 
 ~lfam lii'Uicli just a little thin;i that you could i;et around to the canneries and see 
 liiat all was right especially if the oti'al law is to i)e enforced. 
 
 ADOLPHl'S PEEL, a native of England, a r ^ident of New Westminster, and of 
 liritish Columbia since \H(i'^, and describing himself as a chemist and ilruggist, was 
 duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wi/ntof : 
 
 (}. Have you anything to state to this Commission, sir? A. ( >idy what little 
 nliscrvation 1 have .seen of these tish in studying them during the last 15 years. 
 
 (^). What is your opinicm as regards offid ? A. Well, if put in deep water I do not 
 think there is any deleterious effect. 
 
 (,). If put in shallow water or it lodges along the edges of the water, what then? — • 
 A. It would be very deleterious- it would destroy youi' ai>j)etite for one thing. 
 
 Q. And you think it injurious to health ?- -A. Most certainly, sir. 
 
 (i>. In 3'our capacity as a chenust dt) you know of any sickness at JJelta or any- 
 where else? -A. Well, that is a moot (jucstion — it has not been settled. 
 
 (}. Then ytiu are not prepared to give any o| ,nion upon that?- A. ^\'ell, my 
 opinion is that typhoid f(;\er does not come fi'om that at all it is a malarial fever ,ind 
 comes from the Hats they live on down there then fevers come from decayed vegetable 
 matter. 
 
 Q. What decayed vegetable matter, do you think, is there ? .V. Well, there is 
 swamp gas. 
 
 (j. What do you think of the effects of .saw-dust upon tish ?- A. I think it gills 
 (•\cry tish it comes in contact with. 
 
 Q. What do you think oi.' the limitation of nets whether the inhabitants generally 
 who are IJritish subjects and resident lishermen should they have licenses to tish ? -A. 
 1 think everyone is entitled to licenses— they should be as free as air. 
 
 (^). Should they be transferable ? — A. No, they should not be transferable. 
 
 Q. What do you think of canners -shouUl they be restricted ?- A. They should to 
 a c(Mtain extent you should strike a balance- they should not be at the mercy of the 
 lishermen who would withhold the fish. 
 
 (.^. And how numy licenses should they get? A. Well, that depends upon the 
 capacity of the cannery -if a man puts in more capital he ^houl(l have opportunities to 
 catch the tish. 
 
 CJ. Are not all canneries of about the same capacity ?~-A. No, I think not T 
 think many put up more than others- then then^ is a great deal in the management (jf 
 a cannery too. I have heard akso that you don't get any sockeyes in the FivLser River 
 before the temperatui'e is .55 or 5G. 
 
 ((». And ilo you think, if it did not get to that, they would not come here at all ? — 
 .v. It must be an even temperature. 
 
 Q. How about the tish away ui> in the mountains? — A. AVell, the fish there come 
 in at ;i different time— tliey come in earlier. 
 
244 
 
 MARINE AND FISJrERIES. 
 
 <.^. And it' tlif wiitci' tlit're wan of a (lirt'tTfiit temp»'ratiii'»' wniiM he yo Itack? A. 
 Fff» \V(»ul(l pluy aliMiit until tlif waltu' ifHi'lii'd tlu! piujicr tt'inpt'iatui*! ami tlicii would 
 
 i}. Whiii is your idea in iv^'ai'd to tlic liatclu'ry .' A. I tldnk the liiitrln'ry is hut 
 a small niatti'i-. Ft' I ha\(! .*)0() i-liildifu and take care ot' tlit-ui I will liasc niort- out ot' 
 tlie^i than it' I li'ttlu-ui run in the ;;utt<'r. 
 
 Q, Tlu'ii you think the fosterinji; cure ot' thf (ioverniuent is heiuitioiul .' A. C't-r 
 taiidy, sii-. 
 
 ii, What do you think of tlu* Sunday close season ?- A. T think it ^'ood I would 
 take the whole Sunday. T would make it end on Monday morning because the tish 
 that come in would jfet a chance of j^ettinji oufcof the tishin;^ };iouiuls entirely take<»uc 
 day and you may catch them hefon? t'"'}' ^'et away. 
 
 Q. Do you think all tish die that come in the river .' A. \ think ninety per cent 
 do. because as far as I know tlu^ tish coming,' in to spawn develop death -they 
 chaMt,'e theii' colour they lose their tails they lost^ their tins they j,'et hook hills aiul we 
 have nT> information that these tish can j;row new tails, nor new tins, fi-om new hooks, 
 etc., and when we catch tish n(^\t ycai' they have new tails and tins, etc. 
 
 Q. Then you think that all tish that don't lose their heads, tails, etc., ;,'o to the sea/ 
 -A. .My opinion is that tish cannot swim down this river hecause of the i|uantity of 
 silt in it. There is ei^'hty <;rains of silt to every 1,U()U ;,'rains of water in this river and 
 when a tish comes down he has got to go like light ning, and then to turn up again he has 
 not strength to do it. 
 
 (^. lUit when he goes up what does he do with the silt? A. Oh, he has strength 
 then. 1 have seen tish coming down — they may get to the sea, hut we do not know 
 enough al)out them. T thiidc tish that spawn veiy near to the sea may get hack then 
 •some do not go within Pitt Lake at all you will catch them in the hack end l)arren 
 sockeye I call them. 
 
 i.}. Well, doctors difler and patients die .' A. W'vW, hut we have to hear the differ- 
 ence yet then 1 have seen tish die then as the otl'al ([uestion, I do not tliiidv it is so 
 injurious. 
 
 ^i. Do you know that a petition was made by this city against it .V .V. Well, T 
 know there is an ordiiumce against putting refuse into the river', hut if the people along 
 these sloughs had sense they would boil the water before drinking it. The Chinamen 
 never have typhoid fever and work eight hour shifts. Why don't they get tvphoid ! 
 They work along and drink Fraser Hiver water, hut they boil it before drinking it — 
 these people along the sloughs should do the same thing. 
 
 Ma. PETEK IJTRRELL, a salmon canner, who had previously given evidence, was 
 recalled on the desire of the Chairman to elicit evidence touching the re})orte(l objec- 
 tions made by the city of New Westnnnster, against the presence of Salmon Canning 
 Establishments within its Hunts, and the deposit of ofi'al in the river, etc., and was duly 
 sworn. 
 
 /j// .]fi: Wiliitot : 
 
 Q. Were there any canneries built in the town or in front of the town since vou 
 have been here? -A. t)h yes, there were two of them Mr. Kwen had a caiuiery within 
 the town and Findlay & Lane had one in 1S77. 
 
 (.^>. On a smaller scale than now a days? -A. Oh no, they were both large canneries 
 — of course they were not capable of putting up so nnich fish as now. 
 
 (^). Well, was there any difficulty arose between the nuniicipality at New West- 
 minster and yiv. Ewen and Laidlaw regarding the ofial being thrown in the rivt.-? — A. 
 Oh no, I think not — when these canneries were established here it was thought very 
 desirable for the amount of money they would spend here — I have asked if there was 
 any trouble but have been told that there was none whatever. The municipality of 
 New ^^'estnunster gave special inducements to establish these canneries here. 
 
BRtTISH COI.UMUI.V FISIIKKV C'(».\IMISSI()N. 
 
 245 
 
 (^. I)i<l ymi ever lifiir or kimw nf Miiy <)is(' in wliicli citlnT Mr. Hwi-ii m- Mr. Ijiid- 
 Liw wt'if Hiifd tor iiMiirnprifty in coniu-otinn witli llifir c)imn'rit's in tliiowin;,' in utl'iiH 
 A. I liiiv»» never lieiird cit" it ; f dnn't think there wa.s e\cr .siuli n ea.se a.s that. 
 
 (^. N'ut within yiiiir knowled;,'e.' A. Ni>. nut within my kin)wled;,'e. 
 
 <^. There nii^dit he iind ymi not know it ? A. Theie nii;,'lii lie, l)Ul lieini.' ii 
 ciinnerynian I wonhl liave lieard of it. 'riiire nii^dit liave heen coniiiiiiint.s ajfainst the.se 
 local men I mean Mi-. Ilerrinj,', wiio used to sah lish. and l-'rank <!ee; they used to 
 tiiidw otVal in the river, and it j^ot stranded and liecanit' \t'ry oHensi\c to the eitv. 
 
 (}. Have you any recoMeetiun of Mr. Herrin>f heinj,' lined .' A. No, I have not. 
 'i'ht'ie were eomphiints inaih' against liim, 
 
 <^. And yon iiave ret olieetions of fofiiphdnts a;;ainst (.'inners, lait ntt eonvictions? 
 -A. No; I heiieve tluMV were eomiiiaints hy individuals, hot I think Mr. Eweii witli- 
 (h'ew l)e(iuise tile prop.-rty was ^jettinj,' more vaiual»h' the rai'way eonun'.; here, and so 
 oil- aii<l lie tiiou;(lit he would move away where he had more fieedoin. et<'. 
 
 .Mr. W'll.MOT. Thank you ; that is ail : it had heen .said tuat soinl' of the eannei's 
 iiad heen fined for throwiii'' otDil in the river. 
 
 *je canneries 
 
 HlKili \V. (lOSSKTT, a native of the I'nited State.s, now a naturalized I'.ritish 
 >ul)ject, resi(h'nt in Ihitish Columhia sinee iSflS, living; five miles down the South Ann, 
 New Westminster District, descriljiiii,' himself as a farmer and stock rai.ser, etc., was 
 duly sworn. 
 
 Mr. (iossKTT. Well, it seems to nie very improper that such men as " Dutcli [Mil " 
 and ^\'. H. Port, and .some otiiers, should have a monopoly of the licenses ; 1 sliouhl like 
 to see them depri\('d of licenses and let the Ixiys around town j^'et a license, because you 
 see they have not the coura;L,'e to yo into an office and ask for one. 
 
 £>/ Mr. II i'l'iot : 
 
 ^i. AVliat do you mean hy " !joys around town "' ? A. Well, half-breeds and 
 "lioys"' that are growinj,' up here; and you know it re(|uires a certain amount of 
 ciiuraye t<; j,'o in and ask for a liceu.se — tliey have not the business capacity, 1 mi,<,dit .,.i_), 
 to look alter tiie license. 
 
 i). Why should Mr. Vienna and Mr. Port l)e refused licenses? — A, Well, they 
 have their busine.ss Mr. N'ienna buys and .sells tish and has his j,M'ocerv store, and he 
 is not entitled to license, 1 think, because he does not g(j into a boat and tish, but 
 merely holds his boats in abeyance until the sockeye run, and then he takes them and 
 sells them to the canners. lie has a yreat monopoly in this way with his licenses. 
 
 Q. Do these men ship and freeze fish and send them away ? A. I think they do 
 in the s})rin<!;; 
 
 (,). You think they should have licenses then to fish ? -A. T think they should 
 have. 
 
 Q. And canners? — A. They should hive licenses to enable them to fi.sh. 
 
 Q Why? -A. Because they have their capital invested in the busine.ss. 
 
 ii. Have not the freezers ? -A. Well, not in the same way. 
 
 Q. Tlien these boys about town should they get licenses as long as they are 
 liritish subjects and residetits ?--A. Well, yes ; they mu.st commence some time, you 
 know ; they cannot get licenses because they have not fished before, which has been the 
 lule heretofore ; 1 rather think he should be a Hritish subject, but that is a matter T 
 never jiaid much attention to. 
 
 Q. You are a British subject? — A. Ye.s, sir ; I am a farmer, living on the muddy 
 l).ink of the river, aiul keeping cattle and hor.ses. 
 
 Q. What is your view as to the large amount of ofl'al tiirowii into the river does 
 it afiect your cattle or anything else?— A. Well, not appreciably; I suppose if a 
 inosnuito were thrown in here it would affect the water some, but as now I ([on't think 
 it hurts me any ; tliere are only two canneries above me. 
 
 Q. But if there were se\eral canneries, would there not be an appreciable differ- 
 ence? — A. Yes, it could be measured then. 
 
246 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 i*. !, 
 
 Q. TliPM yiiu tliink friv/ers should not get licenses, hut the Ijoysa'oout town should 
 get tlieni instead '.' A. Yes, that is what T wisht-d to say ; there is nothing else that I 
 know of. 
 
 y\r. WiLMOT.— Thank you, sir, then, that will do. 
 
 ; » 
 
 J! 
 
 ROJJEHT llAliPKH, a native of Hngland, living in I'.iitish Colund)ia for five 
 years, a residtMit of Lulu Island, and a tishernian, was duly sworn. 
 
 yiu. Hakpkh. r live av Lulu Island, down at the mouth of the river : T have oeen 
 there four years now, and I think there are too many licenses f)n the ri\er. 
 
 By Mr. Wilviof : 
 
 Q. |)oyou know how many there are.' A. Something over 700 1 think. 
 
 (J. And you think that too excessive Hshing for this river? A. Yes, sir : there 
 is one thing now we cannot keep sutHcient distance .ipart fi'om (nie another we arc 
 all within oO yards of one another, 
 
 (). What nundier do you think sufficient if 700 is too many .' A. I think -"iOD to 
 ki'cp it in good fishing order I think the liver can be tished out. 
 
 (,). You tliiidc so.' A. t)h, yes; I think we have sutHcient proof of that, riie 
 Columbia Iviver has been almost fished out. 1 know because some years ago \\ here 
 oysters were fished out in the old country, now you cannot get any native Eiglisli 
 oysters they are all Dutch laid. 
 
 Q. And you think over Hshing can l)e done on this river? — A. Yc' . ] tln'ik so. 
 
 (,). And .")00 licenses would be enougli '.' A. Yes; and thus makt. it ., permanent 
 thing on the river. 
 
 tj. And who would you gi\e these licenses to ?- A. I would divide them give half 
 to caniiers and lialf to fishermen. 
 
 (). .\nil J>ritish subjects .' A. Yes; l)ut i would not objtrt to a foreigner as long 
 as he could speak English and Ix; here long enough --many of them cannot speak 
 English now. 
 
 (^>. Would you give a licen.se to a Chinaman ! A. Xo, sir ; he is not a British subject. 
 
 Q. And then you think a resident and lii'itish subject.should get licenses ? — A. Yes. 
 
 (J. Well, su[)pose you had ■')() Chinamen living here would not they be entitled to 
 them as mui'li as other residents .' A. ^^ost certaiidy not they don't help the country, 
 and most of theni cannot speak English. I would not stick at a foreigner if they were 
 here long enough now foi' instance there are Swedes heiv who ai'e good fishermen and 
 good subjects ; 1 would give them to them, for instance ; but 1 w<(uld not to people 
 coming here just to get a license ; many men come hei'e who have not seen a license 
 liefore. And I think there should be a diflference in the jJi-ice of those licenses : T 
 think canners and others who do not Hsh their licenses themselves should pay more 
 than a Hsherman who Hshes it himself, because they don't Hsh until the sockeye cttme 
 as a rule, but as soon as they come plentifully they get two men and send them away 
 as soon as they come in they put in two more men, and they Hsh all along the 
 same license. Now, I cannot work the whole "J 4 hours. 
 
 (J. .\nd then you think the canner gets double out of his license because he puts 
 in 4 men .' .\. Ccsrtaiidy they get double value then if T snag my net I have to lose 
 half a ilay to mend i , whei'cas the caniUM'vmen iiavc a net man, and as soon as they 
 come in they put him to UKnid it. 
 
 (,>. Then the \alue of the license is more to the canner than to a Hsherman.' .\. 
 Y'es ; certainly. 
 
 (^. And a canner should pay doiible if you pay .'->L'0 they should pay -Sfi'.' A 
 T don't say exactly double, but it should be mote. 
 
 (}. What do you thitd\ a'.)out this (piantity of otVal that is thrown into the river.' 
 — .\. I thiid< it is a great disgrace to the country and very injurious to he;dth, too. 
 Now, where [ live there is nothing but the watei' you get from the river uidess it is 
 rain-water, and in tl"- summer we do not get inuch of that. There is notiiinir but tlie 
 river water to drink 1 don't, know the popidati-Hi, but in tlie summer there are nuuiy 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 247 
 
 iiil)iii t'di' tivt 
 
 iiavt" Deeu 
 
 think- -"iUU U> 
 
 nil f'ive halt' 
 
 iniir(> thiiM ill tli(i winter, t'nr tlicii the Siwaslies and .Ja])s conic, and I ■^uininsc tliore 
 would be "JjOOO of .'^OOU. And tlirn to (h'ink of tlie water in the sumnief lays many 
 j)f'o])lp u|) T ha\(' been laid iiji seveial times. 
 
 (J. What is the complaint .' A. Well, it is a kind of ivwv a sort of liilious 
 stomach trouble. 
 
 (}. And y(ai attribute this to the oH'al ? -A. Well, yes; I think so - you yo along 
 the river when the canning is going on - it is more like a cess-jjool ; the oH'a! lies tiiei-e 
 and rots and then at the chise of the tisiiing season ytai are eaten up i>y flies : they 
 l)reed from it, 1 think. 
 
 (^. ])<> you believe that otl'al can be all eaten up then at the; fa<,'torie8 where it is 
 thrown out ,' A. Oh, no ; not nearly all of it you can catch it in your net se\eral 
 miles out I have caught otVal in my net out ha.lf-way ix'tween the lii^hthouse and (!aiiy 
 ]ju«h and plenty mont too liavt> done this than me. 
 
 <J. What eil'ect ha.s this on the nets .' A. ^^'ell, a smut rots the net. If tish are 
 running you can use a. net up in a part of the season, but if less tisji are ruiniing you 
 will sometimes use a net for the cohoes also. 
 
 (i>. Is it usual for tishermen to get new neis every season ? .\. \\'e have two nets, 
 sir -one for spring salmon and 'ne for sockeye, but •.no:"t pe<H)le here are not genuine 
 tishermen they simply get a hi- .ist; and go in for the sockeye. Now. with ten boat.s 
 any cannery can be run easily. 'I o gi\-e these canneries twenty bojits each -it is simplv 
 wiping oil' the fishermen altogether. 
 
 (i>. Then, if twenty licenses each are gi\(Mi to canners, it is tantamoinit to running 
 HsheruK-'ii ofl' the river.' A. ^'es, sir; even now, when you sell to the canneries, they 
 will give you a limit— they will not take all the fish from you. 
 
 <i. Do you not think canneries should have some limited i umber of licenses ? A. 
 Yes, 1 do ; because if you dont give them a number, the fish 'rmen will run the ) rice 
 of tish up to more than the canners can pay. 
 
 (i). What is about the average catch of .salmon? A. W( 11, I cannot tell you the 
 a\erage I have (■aught -"iO? salmon in one tide. 
 
 (^>. Weil, but the daily catch in the sockeye season.' ^.. Well, that will depend 
 upon what kind of a run it was. 
 
 (). Well, suppose we lake a l)ig run? A. ^Vell, T suppose al)Out '.]-)0 or 400 — ■ 
 probably .jOO in the twenty-four hours. Well, now, their own boats might catch a 
 great many more than that sometimes their boj.ts may come in twice in the twenty- 
 four hours. 
 
 (). Well, th(;n, how many would canners a.crage per boat j)er day .' A. Well, [ 
 >liould think they would catch more, but still you know the men only get i?:i and •"-^L'.L*") 
 for going out all night, and they often make their boat fast during the evening. 
 
 (.i|. C'vui.ot you tell us how many fish you get in a season? A. Well, [ cannot say 
 exactly I got .something like .'5,000, F think, last year. 1 worked for a man who had 
 ihr' (• licjiises. Ife had three men in a Itoat and T was one of them. We wdrked 
 -ixvi .'11 hours in the boat and eight out one relieved the other and we worked all the 
 time, but T cannot say exactly how many fish I caught. 1 (an get the numbers and 
 send them u}i, if you like. 
 
 (,). Well, do you catch 1,000, 0,0(10 or 10,000? A. Well, I ."innot tell you exactly 
 how many T caught. You see, there was a book and it got muddled up, for we all 
 three wei-(> catching the fish. 
 
 i). Are there any other remarks yen dc'-irt! to make? A. Yes. | wanted to make 
 another remark, though I don't know as y(ai are the pro]ier ])er.son for me to speak to 
 about it. ^'ou se(\ if you give me a license now and there are no cinneries open, I have 
 to take my fish to the markets, and there is only one per-^on to whom 1 can sell. 
 
 By Mr. Armsfromj : 
 
 (}. Two?— A. Well, we will put it at two; and I cannot sell my tish to any om* 
 else, and thev pav me just what they like. Now, if I pay a licensi' fee of Sl'O, slnaild 
 1 not be able to sell, too .' You see, I cannot sell a tish unless I pay another license, and 
 if 1 go out of town I would have to }i;iy Jinotlier; and if 1 take it to \'ancou\ i| , 1 will 
 lia\i' to pay another there. 
 
^ 
 
 'i ;'! 
 
 248 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 t -. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. But if you were a fanner and i,n'e\v potatoes, would you not liave to pay a 
 license to sell them in the market? -A. ^\'ell, 1 am not a farmer. If a man has a 
 license, why can't I sell ti> whoever T like. Then, there are a lot of people, farmers, 
 etc., who .i;et liceri.ses, hut they cannot use them -they put Japs or Siwashes, etc., in it to 
 W(jrk it. oi- Mhoever comes aloni; they would uive it to me, if T caught on, T supjjose. 
 (J. Then, you think the system wrong that pi-events a tishcrman selling his tisli 
 where and how he pleases ? A. Yes, I do tl)ink so. Now, 1 think the market-men 
 selling fish should not have licenses to catch tish. If he is a fisherman, let him catch 
 the tish : Init if he is a market-man selling fish, let him sell them. I would like to 
 get a little saoj) and sell, too, if 1 could. 
 
 i). Then, what 
 
 do you 
 
 think of the hatchery on the ri\cr? A. ( )h. 1 think it is a 
 
 ereat succes-^ 
 
 O. And vou think there should 1 
 
 )e more o 
 
 f tl 
 
 lem 
 
 <■>. 
 
 Lud what do vou think of the close season 
 
 Yes, certainly. 
 
 A. ( >li, that is a "ood thint 
 
 you must have some time to let fish get uji. Why, if you were down the ri\erand saw 
 file miml)eis of boats that are there, you would think \ei'y few tish got up river. 
 
 t^. Then, do you think there should he any fishing at the mouth of the rivei' ,' Would 
 ntit more fish get up, if there \\as not s(< much fishing' 
 there are any fish get up at that time -the nets are all st 
 
 A. Whv, ves. I don't think 
 
 run"' across. 
 
 A\' 
 
 ly 
 
 tl 
 
 lev sfet 
 
 oil top of one another almost, and get crowded up and tangled on eveivthing. ^Vhy, 
 last summer T saw a lot all tangled up on that " Noah's Ark '' that hi'ings snags up 
 the ri\er. 
 
 <,|. And you tliiid< the close season a jtroijei' one? — A. Yes, I think so. 
 
 Q. Wiiat al)out those people who keep the Sabbath wholly .' -A. Well, don't they 
 keep it holy, sir.' (Laughter.) 
 
 O. Oh. V(ju think it is all riiilit aftei' vou yo to church?-- A. Certainly, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong . 
 (). Suppose we extend it from Saturday moi-ning at six o'clock to Monday moi'ni 
 
 lU 
 
 at SIX o ( 
 
 l..ck 
 
 .\. Well, I don't think that will do, because vou want to ''et as much 
 
 tish as you can while the fish ai'e runnint; y 
 
 ou can 1 
 
 lem at no other tnue. 
 
 Q. Why not tish on Sunday lliei 
 
 A. W 
 
 ;et tl 
 
 you want son 
 
 le time to let the fish 
 
 get up. 
 
 ii. Then would you extend the Sunday close time to 12 o'clock from G? — A. Well, 
 I don't know ; it dejiends a good deal on the tide. More fish would come up as a rule, 
 l)Ut I don't think there are a great many fish caught in that time. 
 
 <.^. Then tish keep Sun<lay. do tlu'V .' — A. I \\ould not like to say that. (Laughter). 
 You see it is a broken day anyway. 
 
 <i*. Well, but sui)jiose we maile it a whole day up to 12, would it not let more f 
 
 isli 
 
 get up 
 
 A. Yes, T think it would, and then if vou made the lioats ."iOO 1 think \l 
 
 ould gi\e good chances to let tish get uj). 
 
 (,*. Well, ha\-e you anything more to say, sir ! — A. Well, I don't know as 1 have. 
 I suppose you know that canners employ more Japs and Chinamen than they do white 
 men on the river, and the more lit-enses they would get the more of those 
 would innploy. 
 
 (^>. Then if they got more that twenty boats. you think they Mould not want white 
 fishermen ? — A. Not if they had twenty : they would not have any use for w hite fishei'uu-u. 
 
 peop 
 
 tl 
 
 ley 
 
 //// J/r. A, 
 
 U. N( 
 
 ■it null/ . 
 10 
 
 ow. you say Kj l)oats would supply a cannery : you lia\'e lieen fishing tor fi\:( 
 years — in how many out of those li\e yeai's would 10 boats lla^e supplied a cannery 
 A. Three out of the five, 1 think — of c<iurse you gentlemen lia\e more op})oi'tunity o 
 
 f 
 
 going into figures than I hav< 
 
 g. Well, tiiat 
 d 
 
 IS just 
 
 e — I am only giving you my opinion, 
 hat we want -opinion>! on the \arious point> 
 
 A. ^' 
 
 of course you don t want o]»inions on matters you don t want to know, 
 there aiiytiiing more 1 can do? 
 
 Well. 
 
 sir, IS 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY CDMMISSION. 
 
 249 
 
 ^h: Wii.MOT. — No, sir, tlifink you ; you lia\o nivcn iis (juitc new infoi-niation, and 
 wliicli will interest us very much. 
 
 No further evidence l)ein^' t'ortlieoniiny, the Cliairinau declared the Commission 
 adjoui'ned at .'5.4"j [i.m., to meet a^'aiii in N'ictoria. i'>.C., at 10 a. ni. on Thursday, .'h'd 
 .Marcl), 1NU2, tiie place of meetini^ lia\ inu' heeii left to Mr. Connuissioner Hij;i;ins to 
 arranu't'. 
 
 Kejiresentations made by ii'preseiitatixes of tiie New \\'estminster Hoard of Trade 
 to Mr. Commissioner Wilmot jirior to dejiarture of Comuiissiin for \'ictoria. 
 
 Ni:\\ Wkst.mixstkk JUlmu) ok Tkadi:, 
 
 Nkw Wkstminstkk. I '..('.. L'nd March. 1S!)2. 
 
 .\ delegation from tlie New Westminstei' Board of 'I'rade, consistinj;' of Messrs. 
 I'. S. Curtis, C. .1. Major and W. A. Duncan, called upon Mr. S. Wilmot at his rooms, 
 in the Coloiual Hotel, at 10 a.m., and were introducetl to tiie Commissioner hy ^Ir. 
 .Major. 
 
 Present : — y\v. Wilmot and ]Mr. Secretary Winter. 
 
 ]\lr. W Hi MOT. - A\'ell, jiciitlemeii, anything you haxc to state 1 will he j,dail to hear, 
 and we will incorporate it in our jiroceedinys. 
 
 ^Ir. CUHTIH. In takinjf evidence here we thought tiiat there was one important 
 matter foi-yotten, and in a nutshell it is this : The canners and tisherm* n aiv \ery 
 anxious that any chan;,'e made in the re,nuiatious will he communicated to them as soon 
 as possible. \N'e had a meeting; of the IJoaid of Trade last lutflit, and it was agreed 
 that this should he done : it is most im|)oi'tant foi' all parti<'s that this should he so. 
 
 Mr. Winmr. -Well, gentlemen, 1 may say 1 haxc thought of this uiatter and the 
 importance it is to the tishermen especially, and I have wi'itten to the Minister about 
 it to issue iiiti-riiii licenses. Of course the caiuiers don't need licenses until Jidy. 
 
 Mr. DuN'CAX. Well, Mi'. Wilmot, I may say the canners ha\e to make their cans 
 o\er two months l)efore they get a tisli, and there is always this risk until they know 
 how many boats they can tish. The cans ai'e not of any use another year, as they rust, 
 and it is necessarv they should know how many boats they can tish and how many tish- 
 ermen's boats they can get it is most important. 
 
 Ml'. ClUTls. -This, ;Mr. \\'ilmot. is a copy of the resolution of our Board, (lland- 
 ini: in document). 
 
 Mr. Wii,\MiT (reading) : 
 
 " Nkw AX'es'I'min.si Kii i)OAHi) OK TuADK, '2ni\ March. 1S92. 
 
 '• At a meeting of the Board of Trade, held on the 1st instant, the following 
 resolution was passed : - 
 
 " ' That in the event of any change being made in tlit" regulations go\eridng the 
 Fraser Hiver fisheries this year, this itoard urges the Comnnssion to take sucii steps as 
 may be necessai'y to make known the nature of the.se changes at the earliest possible 
 moment, sti tiiat the fishermen and canni'rymen may make arrangements to adapt tliem- 
 sehfs thereto. 
 
 "Certified correct, 
 
 "(Signed.) 1). BOIJSON, 
 
 Mr. ^\'ll,^U)T icontinuing). WCll. 1 may mention, when in N'ictoria some days 
 ai:o, Mr. Earle and some of the canni'rs met in his oHice, and this matter was talked 
 o\er, and I suggested tiieir writing to the Miiuster and ask for the issim of Inf'-rim 
 licenses, and tiiey tliouglit it would l)e very im})ortant indeed for the tishermen, hut that 
 it would not effect the cannei's so much. When he Miicd the Minister, the reply was 
 to the effect that he was ijuite satisfied with the present rei;ulations on the matter. 
 
250 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 1/ 
 I 
 
 Mr. Duxc'A>,. Well, it was thought that after tlie Coniniission <,'ut tlnou<fh \vit]^ 
 their work and '.iiade their report, etc., a great deal of time would elapse, and it would 
 he l)etter to have some ai-rangement made beforehand. 
 
 Mr. W'li.MoT. Well, T think myself, individually speaking, tliat it would he 
 injuilicious to make any decided change before another season. This, of course, is my 
 own individual opinion. 
 
 Ml-. CiHTis. But it is intended though, .Mr. Wilmot, for the Commission to make 
 a report on this season, is it not ? 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMo'r. Well, I should think there would not he any trouble in deciding 
 about the number of licenses, for instance, and that, T think, we could settle when we 
 get back from ^'i^'toria. 
 
 Mr. CriiTis. That is the imjiortant thing. There ai'c but three important (pU's- 
 tions in this matter the number of l)oats to lie fished, the close season, and the offal 
 (juestion. 
 
 Mr. WiLMo'i'. -Oh, yes ; those are the imjiortant ones. 
 
 Mr. Ma.joi!. We wish to have it placed upon record the resolution of onr l>oard 
 in this matter so it will not be overlooked in any way, as if anything \ery (litlerent 
 is done without due warning, it \\ould U))set their whole arrangements for tlie season ; 
 and, as Mr. Curtis suggested, if there is to lie any material change it wimld be well to 
 have if laid over for another season. 
 
 .Mr. Wji.MOT. Well, when do the canners commence making their tins? 
 
 .Mr. CiiM'is.- In May or in the latter part of .Vjiril. 
 
 Mr. WiKMOT. Then, if the matter were decided by the latter end of March, it 
 would be all right would it not .' 
 
 .Mr. Ct:iiTis. (Jh, yes ; that would do very well. It is important that we should 
 know a little time beforehand. Now, in It^OO, when 1 was in the business, the can- 
 neries got according to the jiack put up in [irevious years, and we got seventeen licenses, 
 but we did not know of it until (|uitc late. 
 
 Mr. AVii.Moi. — Why in 1890, I thought, there was an established number of, I 
 think, twenty. 
 
 Ml'. CuKTis. Well, there were four canneries got only se^■enteen licenses. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, you were entitled to twenty in 189U. However, it is innna- 
 terial now. At present the nuinlier stands at twenty for each cannery, and if no effects 
 take ]ilace from tins Connnission, it will stand at twenty. 
 
 Ml'. CuiiTls. Well, wt! only got seventeen, and yet had a capacity for jiutting up 
 20,000 cases. 
 
 .Mr. Wii.MO'i'.-AVell, now as you say, the three important points are the number 
 of license.s, the ottal, and the close time .' 
 
 Mr. Ci'RTis. — Well, the close .sea.son is all right as it is now. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. Well, T may say that all (»ver the Dominion it is felt that the wlmle 
 of Sunday should be kept without work that it be made iii\til \'2 o'clock now. it was 
 the canners themselves who asked that the time should end at o'clock the Depart- 
 ment desired to make it 1 '_' o'clock, and now T think there is a disposition all round that 
 th" whole of the Sunday should lie kept many of the ti.sherinen here we find would like 
 to keep all Sunday several have stated their desire to have all Sunday. 
 
 Mr. ('rinis. W(>ll, it is like this if fishing is not done on Sunday night they will 
 haw nothing to work with on Monday morning. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. I>ut if you fish from ll' o'clock Sunday nii;ht .* 
 N\ ('II, of t'ourse we would liaxe some. 
 
 Hut the lishermen tell me they catch more IInIi if th<'y do not tish 
 the tish having a rest, as it were, gives them the In-tlcr cliaiice. 
 Well, we had fishermen in our establishment who wouM not ti-^h on 
 Sunday Newfoundlanders, etc. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. Well, that is just a good reason, Mr. Curtis, why it should be made 
 to \'2 o'clock we want to encoura;;( such citizens to come into the country and run tmt 
 these (Jreeks, Italians, (itc., for they ire good citi/ens after the fishing .season is o\er. 
 Then we have thought from the way it has been rejiresented to us that it w<(uld be much 
 better to have a Ljood fishini,' community who wotild keep Sunday and he Ljooci litizei^ 
 
 Mr. Ci-itTLs. 
 Mr. Wilmot 
 on Sunday night 
 .Mr. CiHTls. 
 
BRirrsH coLUMniA fisheky commission. 
 
 251 
 
 :ion to uiiike 
 
 ill pvery wiiy. Xow in regard to tlie Indians they tell ine tluit up on tlie Skeena and 
 other rivers they do not like to ti.sh on Sunday and it makes things better in eveiy way. 
 
 Mr. Ci'KTis. Well, that is very well, Itut I do not think you should have more 
 than ■^*) liours of a elose season. 
 
 -Mr. Wii.MOT. Well, let them tish on .Saturday then. 
 
 Mr. CiRTi.s. Then they will have to work on Sunday to get rid of them. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Well, there is only six hours and I think the iienetit of the tish get- 
 ting U}) the river should weigh against the wishes of the eunners. 
 
 Mr. Curtis. -And if theeainiers do make a few dollars more what does that mutter 
 to the others? T must say, liowe\er, in all fairness tliat some of those men who would 
 not tish <»n Sunday had the greatest numt'er of tish eaught to their credit. 
 
 yiv. Wii.MOT. 'J'hen you see there does seem to he some kind of providence looking 
 after the good (isiiei'iiieii (laughter.) 
 
 -Mr. DtNCAN. 1 may say, Mr. Wilinot, there is a great deal of talk about the tish 
 deoi-easing in this ri\er now [ dont think there is any sign of that at all. 
 
 ^Fi-. Wii.MOT. Well, it has been handed down from time immemorial that tish run 
 in cycles, and yet look at the returns you can pick them <mt from tlie reports. 
 
 ^NTr. DuxCAN. Well, but you cannot judge by the reports it depends so much 
 upon the amount of plant for catching the tish and conducting tlie tishing operations, 
 the facilities for d(ting the work, etc. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, the.se (luestions have been a.sked so as to obtain informati(m 
 as to habits of salmon, etc., as well as to elicit opinions upf)n mattto's in connection with 
 your canning l)usiness some say there is an '• off" year every foui- years, etc., and when 
 we put these altogether, you see we will I e able to get some valuable ilata. 
 
 Mr. Ma.jou. A'^e.s ; there is another jmint too al)out the hatchery. 
 
 Mr. WiLMoT. -Oh yes ; now you gentlemen of the Board of Trade what do you 
 think of the hatcliery has it lieen a success? 
 
 Mr, Dl'XCAn. Yes, it has -and I think the other gentlemen will agree with n)ein 
 the same. 
 
 Mr. Curtis. Well, T attribute the less number of ••oil'" years to the hatchery. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. - Well, 1 could not give the same ain<aint of credit to it that many 
 others do, Vjecause it has not been upon a sutticiently large scale, but still, of course, I 
 believe in artiticial breeding as a su{>plemfntary aid to the natural, l)Ut T do not think 
 if the natural breeding grounds are not cared for tlie hatcheiy will make up for it. 
 
 ]\[r. M.\.TOU. You must remember, Mr. Wilmot, that this is a specially productive 
 country. 
 
 Mr. Duxcav. -I certainly believe that the liatcliery has been beiieticial now, take 
 the number of tish caught on the Fraser lvi\ cr in a whole sea.son 1 do not suppose they 
 would be more tluin two or three )iiillion> now if you put out many millions of young 
 ones, even if but a small number escape, they must aid the supply \ery nuicli. 
 
 Mr. M.v.ioR. -Well, T must say I expected more information on this head to come 
 out before this Commission [ may say T ha\e been somewhat disajiiiointed at not heai'- 
 ing more, but the time will t».>.t I presume p<'rmit of going extensixely into the iiuestion 
 of thehabitsof salmon on the Paciiliic coast I fancy they vary somewhat from the lialiits 
 of salmon on the Atlantic .' 
 
 •Mr. Wii.Mo'r. No. not die hal)its, l)Ut you ha\e a great many more families of 
 '^alinoii here than *e hnvv itn '^be enst. 
 
 Mr. Ma.ioi!. Well, ximrr^ Jtre a great ii any other (piestions — now it is held that 
 the young tish from this r'!> er i-onie back agani to thv Fraser i{i\er. 
 
 .Mr. N\ fLvtuT. — Ye**. 
 
 Mr. M.A.niR. — Hut wi«\' .' There mii^^t be a reH.'<on - why. in jiassing the Coluinl)ia 
 Ki\er ilo not they go in there .' 
 
 Mr. WiLMoT. Well, salmon iio in finiilie- they all know their own rivers. 
 
 Mr. Ma.ioh. Well, if you n-^ice theniii, at tine nnaiths of rivers you will see them in 
 thousamls away at the mouths of the ri\ers all along the l^icitic coast and they will wait 
 there until a certain tin.e before they will come in Now do yon rhink rjic vounj^' salmon 
 from the hatcherv will ronie into this river a^raiii .' 
 
252 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 .Mr. Wii.MOT. — ^Yes, ct'i'tainly ; now I liuvehiul much experience in this mtittei-— in 
 the eiistern provinces the siune thini,' pievails — in the 8t. John l{ivei' the fish come in 
 find tlio ti-h bel(jnfj;in,a; to tlie fhffei'ent streams funnini,' in can he tokl to which they 
 ))elonj;. 
 
 Mr. DfNC'AN.^ — Well, F tiiink there is no douht about that — tish here have ])een 
 marker! with silvei' rini^s in the tails and have heen caujjcht coming l)ack. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. — Oh, yes ; they have been marked at different places — that has been 
 done frecpiently and tiie fact of their return is altogether beyond (question. 
 
 Before vvf i)art, g(»ntlemen, 1 may say 1 was asking Mr. liobson if there was any 
 time in your city when complaints were made about the etl'ects of offal in the river and 
 if there was any convictions? 
 
 .\li'. Ma.iok, Well, yes; there were complaints ai)oiit tlie offal from English's Can- 
 nery here aiid we nifdv^ a i-ow about it. 
 
 Mr. Wli.Moi. — |)o j-ou know if it is on record ? 
 
 Mr. ]\I.\.ioH. — Well, I don't know of that, but 1 may say that with our water here 
 there comes down a silt and sedimentary matter which after it stands a little time has a- 
 disagi'eeable smell and becomes ot?'ensi\e. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, gentlemei!. in conclusion T may say that 7 do not tliink the 
 Dejiartment desires to hamper the canning industry in any way, but many complaints 
 ha\e been made on this point and we desire to arrive at a cori'cct conclusion as to its 
 effects. I may say too that 1 was (juite .struck with the com])laints of the people 
 fi'om Delta tin- otliei- day. Delegates from the Municipality t'ame hei'e and represented 
 that the eflects were most injui'icais, not only to vheir stock but to the general health of 
 the connnunity, and you, gentlemen, will readily .see that when the public health is 
 threatened the con\enience of a few who do not reside, except in one or two solitary 
 instances, in the neighljourhood effected, cannot bar the way to change and remedial 
 measures for the bettering of things for the .safety of the connnunity. My own opinion 
 is that a valuable product can be made fi'om this otl'al in the shape of both oil and ferti- 
 lizer. 
 
 Mr. Duncan. ^ — Oh, yes ; has anything been done upon that point 1 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT, - AN'ell, we ha\c got considerable information on this subject, ))Ut as 
 yet it seems to l)e in an e.xperimi'ntal stage. In the j)a})ers recently there appeared an 
 article upon this veiy matter in the "Colonist" of "JOth February last, I think it was 
 — giving an account wherr samples were sent down tt) tlu? Ontario Department of Agri- 
 culture aiul an analysis was made wliii li showed that a most \aluable fertilizer could be 
 made from the offal I think they jilaeed its values at about 834 a ton. 
 
 Well, gentlemen, it there is nothing else you desire to represent, T will now ask 
 you to excuse me — we are lea\ing for X'ictoria to-day, and have not very much time just 
 now to spare. Your rcfpiest shall ha\e the best attention of the Connnission and youi' 
 statements will be jilaced on lecord with our proceedings. 
 
 Ml' Cuirris. Thank you, Mi'. Wihnot, we will not detain you longer — the import- 
 ance of ihe industry and the injustice of giving our j)eople fair warning (jf any change 
 or intended change in the regulations must be our justification for coming tn you at 
 this late hour. 
 
 The delei-ation then witluli'ew at lU.-SO a.m. 
 
 VicroKi.v, 15. C, Friday, .'h'd Miircli, IMtJ. 
 
 Min'ii imi Si'Ksion. 
 
 Tlie Commission met in the Board of Trade Rooms, Yietoria, at 10 a. m. 
 
 Present :- .Mr. S. Wilniot, in the chair : "Slv. Connnissioner Ifiggins, ]Mi'. Commis- 
 sioner Armstrong and Mr. Secr-'tary iVinter. 
 
 At 10. l.") a.m.. the Chairman called the Commission to order. 
 
 Mr. Wii.mmt. This meet. iig having adjimrned to Yietoria, till 10 a.m. to-day, 1 
 now declare this Commission ojien for business. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 253 
 
 r could he 
 
 .Mr. HoitKUT Wawd. -^lay 1 i-iiqiiire .Mr. Cliiiiniiai\, as to the scope of tliis Coiu- 
 iiiissioii ? Most of the gentlemen ]>reseiit to-day have had no cliance of lieiiii; at any of 
 the previous meetings, and woidd hke to know the seope and powers of this Connnission. 
 
 .Mr. Wir.MoT. — The sphere of tlie Connnission is to take in all matters relating to 
 the tisheriei. of Ih'itish Cohnnl)ia if there are any i,'eiitlenien pi'esent desirous of sulj- 
 niitting anything to the IJoard we are open to I'eeeive it. 
 
 Mm. STEPHEN .SPEN'CEIi, a native of the United States, and ivsident of Alerfc 
 Uay, IJ.C, living in llritisli Coliinil)ia for some ."lo years, by ocenpatioii a salmon eaiiner, 
 was th<'n duly sworn. 
 
 n,/ Mr. Wi/iiinf : 
 
 (,). Now sir, what ha\e you to submit .' — .V. in regard to seining o])erations in tlu^ 
 Nimkish Ui\'er — 1 (l(j not think, of t'ourse, as established foi' the last 10 or 11 years, 
 and always using seines, we e;in cateli tish in any otluM- mode e-xeejit with seines. .\s 
 very likt'lv the Connnission is not aware how we use those seines, perhaps it would l)e 
 iietter for me to e.\])lain, so you may judge. A\'e have seines witli meshes according 
 to law, and tish have access to the ri\er at all times. We can oidy tish at certain 
 times--we never tish at night time, because we cannot see. ^^'hen we extend a net we 
 never extend it across the river -we put it out merely to get them but we nexcr tish at 
 night time — that is not in consideration, because we cainiot see itnd there is tht-refore 
 uninterrujited chances for the tish to get up the vWcv for nearly eighteen hours out, of 
 the twenty-''..ur. There is no possibility of gilling tliem, because there is no water and 
 only one or tww places where we can haul the seines so to speak. The first year we 
 were canning the tish were very plentiful. 
 
 (^). \\'hat year was that, sir ? -.V. Some eleven years ago, T think — t lie first year 
 tiiey wi'ic i)lentiful, the second they were not, and it was? with great ditliculty we gob 
 4,0U0 cases — some vears since they ha\'e l)een |)lentiful aiul some not. 
 
 Q. The Nimkish Ri\'er the " .\lert I'.ay "' Cainiing Co. ? A. Yes sir. 
 
 (.^. How long ago is it since you coiinuenced fishing there .' A. Some eleven years 
 ago — the runs varied from year to year. In 1890 for instance that was the year of 
 the most plentiful fish on tlie river and when our cans weri' al! full. 
 
 (J. ISlfO was the l)iggest year on the river ? — A. Yes: ISiJO. 
 
 (.2. What in 1889 .' — A. Fair -6,000 cas(>s, I thiid<, we j)ut up. but still we ni'ver 
 fish after we put up a certain luimber of cases — we calculated the capacity of the cannery 
 at some fj,000 cases and could have camied tnuch more that year but we <iidy calculated 
 to till a certain number of c;ins, but for sonu' weeks after that the fish were jdentiful 
 l)Ut not one fish was taken out of the river. 
 
 Q. Canyon estimate how mtiny you might have taken out? — A. AVell, [don't 
 know : r think we could have taken some hundreds more cases. Tn 1^90 our j)ack was 
 al)out 7,'200 cases ; last year, it was just the re\>'rse. F only packed some 7U0 cases. 
 'I'lic last year was about the worst since I have been a canneryman. 
 
 (}. Are facts as recorded that in 1SS7 you packed 4,200 cases ? — A. Well, T don't 
 know. T don't recollect ever giving anyltody the c<irrect number, but 1 don't doubt that 
 it is correct. 
 
 C^. No: Tarn not referring to the de])artmental account; T am simply taking it 
 from the report of the Jh'itish Columliia lioai'd of Trade. — A. t)f course, I givfe the 
 figures into the department, l)Ut 1 cannot tell front memory. 
 
 Q. How do you account for the great falling ofl' in these; years ? — .\. Well, 1 don't 
 know. I tliiiik it a fi'cak of nature, that is all. I'eriiaps thei'e was not food there for 
 them to induce tiiem to come. 
 
 Q. Do vcai think there could be tfto much tishing and not enough left to breed? — 
 A. No ; I don't think so. There has never lieen any altiiormal fishing there. F have 
 heard that the Indians do tishing that is injurious, but there has not been any change 
 at all in the mode of Fndian tishing. There is always a clear roat) for the tish to go \\\^. 
 
 (,). Then you think it must be some other mode ttf fishing, or something else than 
 Indian tisliiny .' .\. Yes 
 
 something else. 
 
 i}. And are these snckeye ! — .\. Yes. 
 
ji^ 'I 
 
 254 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 
 ' f 
 
 Q. And they liavc fallen otl' in i|iiiintity ? A. Yes; they liavc ; hut it is not 
 iM'faiisf Hsli lifuf not Imil ojiportunity to coint- in to spawn, for every year tliey lui\e 
 had plenty of time, even after our cans were tilled. And it cannot he said that it is on 
 account of the seine tisliin*; ; tliey are not as l)ad as ^ill-nets, for we can oidy tisli at 
 certain times, and there is jilcnty of chance tor them to i^et up. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that there are small lakes at the head of tiiis river .' A. Yes ; there 
 ai'c small lakes some sixteen miles up from the mouth. 
 
 (2. And tiiese are tiie hi'eedinn' jilaces of the sockeye .' A. i sujipose so — yes. 
 
 Q. How wide is the mouth of the ri\er at low tide where you draw your seine? — 
 A. AVell, prohahly it is more than iMJO oi- .'?()() yards, l)ut we Hsh in salt water at low 
 tide. We haul on the little isjanil, i)Ut itiscoxercd at hi,i,'h tide and is rijflit in salt water. 
 
 Q. How do you })itcii your seine i,'o out in a l)oat .' A. ^^'e j^o out on shore, and 
 the Hsh show themselves on the surface : then we go out with the seine and make a 
 water haul. 
 
 Q. When you see the fish '! — A. Yes ; we have a good many water hauls. 
 
 Q. Then your system is- when you see Hsh showing on the surface, you try and 
 surround them and hring them in. Sometimes you get Hsh and sometimes not? — A. 
 Y'es ; we freijuently giit water hauls. Last year they were very fre(|uent. 
 
 (.^. What kind of seine do you usually use- one with corks on top and leads at the 
 hottom ? - A. Y'^es ; the usual seine : not a hag-net, hy any means. The me.shes are 
 thos(; regulated hy law. 
 
 Q. The lead lines sweep the hottom do they ? -A. Well, it all depends on the cur- 
 rent sometimes no current will take them down. 
 
 <^. H 
 
 ow m 
 
 iinv hoats do \ou Hsli with 
 
 A. T 
 
 wo 
 
 tl 
 
 lei'c aie only two licenses un 
 
 the I'iver : I liavt' Hshed under special licenses from the depaitmeiit ; formerly it was 
 !?"J;") for each seine. 
 
 Q. And what is the length of the seine ? — A. 1.^0 fathoms. 
 
 (}. And the depth f A. I cannot tell you. 
 
 Q. Well, how many meshes is it deep? — A. Well, I can't tell. 
 
 (). Tf you Hshed in 30 feet of water it would he 150 feet deep, I suplxise ? — A. No; 
 it \aries. 
 
 Q. How deep is it where you usually haul your seine? — A. T cannot tell you 1 
 cause it shoals off, and you may get them in deej> or shallow watt-i 
 
 (.». 15ut the tendency of the net if shallow is to nn to the hott 
 
 )e- 
 
 om ? —A. Certainly. 
 <^). And it will sweep the hottom as far as it goes ! — A. Y'^es ; that is the purport 
 
 ot it, as tar as it goes. 
 
 <.^. Could you tell us the numher of Hsh you have taken at one haul 
 
 A. \\' 
 
 cannot tell exactly, hut I think pijssihly l.OOtJ at one time; we once iilled nine hoat 
 loads with the result of one haul, somewlaM'e ahout S,000 Hsh ; that was the l)iggest 
 haul at one time eyer made on the river ; that was last year, and the day after I could 
 
 na\(' 
 
 tal 
 
 Icen a mu( 
 
 •h hiiiyer haul from the look of the Hsh 
 
 (^. You say you i-an Hsh (Jidy in certain places, what is the reason? — A. Thei'c are 
 many snags there and you have to keep clear of them. 
 
 tj. What is the radius of watei- where you usually sweep your seine? A. About 
 
 lia 
 
 If 
 
 a mile. 
 
 (,). Could you not use gill nets there? — A. No; I have tried it, hut it was not 
 
 success: 
 
 ful. 
 
 Q. How do others u.se gill nets at the mouth of the Fraser Hive 
 the water is not clear ; it is muddy. 
 
 A. I 
 
 >ecause 
 
 Q. ^^'ell, how about in the eastern provinces whei^e it is all clear water? — A. 
 Well, T do not think it would do here. 
 
 (J. Do Hsh stay at the mouth of the river awhile before they go up .' A. Yes; 
 they do not go u]) for a few days. T I'ontend no Hsh go up until they are mature and 
 
 ready to go up ; \n otlier words until ready to s[)awn. 
 
 ((). How early do you c<uniiience Hshing there? — A. Ahout the end of Jum 
 
 g. Id 
 
 > any 
 
 Hsh 
 
 1 spawn in .June, to youi 
 
 ki 
 
 lowledije : 
 
 A. N. 
 
 mg 
 Ind 
 
 C^. Then they are waiting there to go up and you catch them while they ave wait- 
 to g'.? — A. Well, T do not say they are all w^aiting to go to spawn, and then the 
 ians catch many. 
 
Barrisii Columbia fishery cmmmission. 
 
 255 
 
 Q. Wlmt iirc tin- lueslit's of voiw iicls f — A. ."<>, indies. 1 tliiiik tlic biw if(|uiias 
 '.n to 3] inches. 
 
 (}. .\i'e the meshes in the ii;ii,'(it' tiie net any (htVerent ? — A. N<i : fill one iiieasure. 
 .">.', inches extension nieasiu'e. 
 
 (,). Wliat is tiie aveni<;e si/e of sockeye sahnon there .' A. Well, tiie aNeiaye year 
 will take ahout I'J to a I'ase. 
 
 (^>. .Makiiif,' your salmon ahout 7 imjuikIs .' .\. Something,' like that; some years 
 lartfei- and some smaller. 
 
 i-i. Axu\ about 1 li to a ease .'A. Y(vs ; ahout that on the axcraye. 
 Q. How many cans to a tish, four? — A. Four cans. 
 
 (.}. .\iul the (lifference l)et\\<'en foui' and seven and eii,'ht would he ofl'al ? — A. Yes. 
 (.J. What do you do with the oti'al .' A. It is deposited in salt water ; ycai perhaps 
 are not aware that the canneries on the Nimkish ]{iver are on a little island, alxait 
 two miles from the miiuth «if the ri\ci". The tisli aic cau.nht in the ri\er and hi'oU!j;ht 
 over to the cannery and cleaned there ; we have a shoot that takes offal out into salt 
 watei' and it is carried otl' ; in a wcu'k's time after we liave done HshinH; tliei'c is nothing' 
 seen of it. 
 
 (^. Ha\e you any exclusixc right hy lease oi' otherwise to the ri\ci'.' A. 1 don't 
 own any portion of the i-i\er, hut f haxc a claim there. 1 applied to the (!o\ernment 
 for a lease and the ( Imci'nment agreed tliat I should lia\e the i'i<fht to tish for ■Sl-'iO. 
 
 C^). l)o \^>u take out hoat licenses '. — A. I don't need to take license; I was fishiiij^ 
 un(U'r lease. IJefore ha\'in,Lj; the lease I paid sii.") a year foi' a net. 
 
 Q. How many ])ersons are employed in your cannery .' — A. Iietween Hfty and sixty. 
 (}. Principally what .' A. 1 ndians principally. 
 
 C^. How many white men will y(]U have in that estahlishment ? A. iM^ht or nine ; 
 we don't ha\e a lar.n'c numhei-. 
 
 Q. What numher inside the cannery foi' all jnirposes? — A. Ahout three; the 
 halance are principally Indians and a luimher of Chinamen. 
 
 (}. How many Chinamen f- A. Ahouteleven ; last year 1 think it was eleven ; some- 
 times T have had more hut T have tried to utilize the Indian labour. 
 
 Q. Ai'e your boats fished by Inilians or do you buy your tish from Indians? — A. 
 I have l)ought them from Indians. 
 
 Q. Where do they (ish for them? A. Up the river in the nari'ow passes chiefly. 
 (}. Does not your employin<^ them make them catch more nsh than before you 
 went there ?- -A. No; I don't think so. 
 
 Q. Then they deprive themselves of food ? — A. No; you mistake tlx' haliils of the 
 Indians altoj^cther ; they don't want the sockeye at all. 
 
 <^. NN'hat arc; the tish in your ri\ei'? -A. Then' is the blue-back, as wi- call them ; 
 then there conie.s the sockeye ; then the satsum. 
 
 (). Is that the same as the cohoe? A. No; they area lai'ge tish, twenty pounds 
 or so. 
 
 (}. Are they not sprint; salmon? — A. Well, some say so, but others do not. 
 (}. Then the Nimkish River is inhabited by much the same tish as otlier rivers 
 alonji' the coast f -A. Yes; 1 thi'nk so. 
 
 Q. But your principal tish is sockeye and that has decreased of late years? — A. 
 Yes; sockeve i.s the j)rincipal one, but I don't think they have really decreased; soniP 
 years there art; less than others. 
 
 Q. And you say the Indians will not eat sockeye, but will eat others not as yood ; 
 the liumi»back foi' instance? A. Well, they will not u.se them, but they want the 
 luimi)l)ack for dryinjf. 
 
 Q. r>ut you don't use the humpback for your woi'k? - A. Not at all. 1 contend 
 that it was only a freak of natui'c that tish did not come last year. 
 
 y>// Mr. J/ii/yuis : 
 
 Q. Where do these tish go to si)awn ? — A. Well, as far as T know they have been 
 seen in the lakes above. 
 
 Q. Have you ever ascended the river or been up to the falls ? — A. I have never 
 lieen to the falls. 
 
.! i 
 
 
 25n 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 (}. Mavt> yuu ovov hcai'd of nlistructimis Iumiil,' ]>iit in tlit; fliaiiiifl to pi-event Hsh 
 from uoiiiii u\> liidiaiis jmt rock in so as to »laiii tiit^ rhamipl .'-A. \ never knew any- 
 tliinii ot' the kind the Indians have a I'esei-ve and they sinii)ly put the leyular net then; 
 hut in no case ohstructiuL; tlie river. 
 
 <,^. I )o tish 'fin ujt river in hirj;e (|uantitie.s .' A. They do. 
 
 (,). Have you any experience in re<^'fird to the lite ot' tish after j,'oin,!,' uj) to spawn .' 
 — A Well, r lia\(' some knowledijc e\i'ryl)ody varies. 
 
 (i>. What is your experience .' ^V. I think tisli i,'o up and return of course acerla'n 
 percentaffe die. 
 
 (J. Ila\e you ever seen any dead lisli up tliere .' A. I never have 1 have heard 
 of dead tish heinj,' sei-n up on the lake ('apt. .J. -Mi'AUister wiio has prospected up there 
 has told me he has seen them then I have tau},'ed tish have marked them and have 
 caunht them the following yeai'. 
 
 /!>/ Mr. Wilnml : 
 
 (). in j^ood condition .' A. Just as tfood as others. 
 
 <i. Do y(tu think Indians have any object in jireserN ini;' thctisii .' A. Well. I don't 
 think they care it is the hardest thing for me to induce those people to go tishing for 
 me they are a liapjn'-go-lucky iieople. 
 
 ill/ Mr. /fii/(/ins : 
 
 (,). "N'ou say you throw otl'al in the water is it in deep water? — A. It is thrown in 
 salt water and goes out to si'u. 
 
 (.}. Ila\e you seen sca\engi'r llsli cat it .' — A. Yes, lots of them. 
 
 (i>. .\nd if oll'al lies at low water would the tide take it all away and would the 
 little lisli cat it all before the next low tide.' A. Well, they would not eat it all always, 
 Ijut it would soon go sometimes it might lay for l.'4 hours. 
 
 (i>. Kegarding the failure of tish last year, have you any hatchery uji there? — A. 
 No, none. 
 
 i}. 7,000 cases was the largest number of cases you ever put up .' A. Yes, by 
 about 1,000 cases. 
 
 (.^. J)o you thiid< putting up that number oi cases hiid an ett'ect on the run of tish .' 
 — -A. No, not, at all. 
 
 (,). I''ish are \-ery ei'ratic .' A. Very erratic -look at .Skenna Uiver. 
 
 //// .I//'. Wl/nujf : 
 
 (,). -May r ask you, Mr. Spencer you say that in "90 yoiu' catch was greater than 
 in former years you mean your pack', not your catch did you not pack from other 
 places?-- A. No, not to any great extent. 
 
 Q. Then your puck in 'S!) and KO was lessened and you rest)rted to other places to 
 make up the amount .' A. Not at all, sii'. 
 
 Q. Fhit in 18SS your pack was ."),000, iiid in '90, 7,1.'S0 ca.ses, and you have supple- 
 mented your pack by getting them fi'om other places? — A. Not at all T was prospect- 
 ing, as we say, to get tish and to see where they were, but I didn't make it up— I got 
 n few, but not many T could ha\e caught plenty in the Nind<ish Kiver if T had wished 
 to can them. 
 
 (}. lUit you did supplement your catch in "89 and '90? — A. Not at all - 1 do not 
 consider that at all in that way, because I could have tilled more cans out of the Nimkish 
 l{iver, but as 1 had the tish caught from pi<tspecting around, ! i)ut thtm uj), l)ut T could 
 have caught plenty of tish in the Xindvish Hiver. 
 
 Q. Well, what I want to get at is — a complaint has bt'cn madt^ that tish lia\e much 
 decreased in that river and it would go to show that from your catch — now in 1887 yiai 
 put up 4,200 cases, in 188S, r),000, in 1889, 7,1 M) and in 1890, 7,280 cases -therefore in 
 1889 and 1890 there must have been some aid from other places ?- -A. Not at all — I 
 don't consider it aided jne in one can — 1 always cease when I get a certain nundjor of 
 cans. 
 
UUrnSII COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 257 
 
 t Ill'DWII 111 
 
 Hil Mr. //i;/i/iiis : 
 (.}. Ytiu Jilwiiys stop wlit'ii yiiii ^'ft a fcrtaiii iiuiiil)t,'r ut' ciuis ,' — A. Yes. 
 />'// .)//•. W;/n>nt : 
 
 Q. In l.S'JOynu ttiok tlit" usual huimImt ut' cases ? —A. F filli-d (J,UUU cases— all tim 
 laiis T liad. 
 
 Q. Ill ISOl you got (iiily ()0(J cast's ?— A. This year was diU'efeiit — T liad tins Ict't 
 
 c)\rr tlu'll. 
 
 Q. You say all salnuni do imt die ^ A. Yes; my opiiiidii is a certain iiercent.iyc 
 die but not all T would like to put a man on the stand who is a pi'actical man and 
 \vli(( knows all ahiait the I'ivcf and can tell you all al)out the tish, etc., thece. 
 
 ^Ir. HiTiiKT (from tlie audience), -Mr. Chairman, I would like very much to pu' 
 a <iuestion to Mr. Spencer het'ore he leaves the stand, or if you will ask it t'oi' me .' 
 
 Mr \N'li,MoT.~A\'ell, we ohjocted to that before, but if the other Commissioners 
 are willing, 1 of course will not (jbject. 
 
 Mr. \V.\ui) (from the audience). - T may say, Mr. Chairman, that it is the usual 
 jiractice in courts to allow questions being asked. 
 
 Mr. WiKMOT. — That wiaild be tantamount to counsel, would it not? 
 
 ]Mr. WahI).- Yes ; I think it would. 
 
 3[r. JIkjoin.s. Well, I think that we should permit this questi(m being asked — I 
 am of opinion that the fullest jiossible scope slwaild be given to this cMUjuiry. 
 
 Mr. W'li.MoT.- Well, if gentlemen like Mr. Spencer, or any othei' gentlemen, comes 
 forward he should have prepared his statement on any matters and then let us (jui-stion 
 liim. 
 
 Mr. Hl(i(aN.s.--N\'ell J think a (piestion like this should be allowed — when I was 
 over there in New Westminster, T saw (piestions alloW'ed. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.-Only in one instance, sii'. 
 
 Mr. HicaiiN's. |]ut he had it nevertheless. 
 
 Mr. Armstrono. — Well, that is one of the (juestions that I feared would cause 
 ti'ouble from the connnencement we found aftei- allowing one man to come forward 
 everybody wanted to do ihe same — now if sve allow Mr. liithet to ask (juestions it woukl 
 be tantamount to counsel --now I do not think that counsel is at all necessary at this 
 stage of the pi'oceedings -if counsel were necessary it should be where the i)reponder- 
 auce of the evidence was taken- -T think ..Mr. Higgins is wrong in saying he heard 
 questions }>ut at Westminister. 
 
 Mr. HiooiNs. — Well, T heard a man put (piestions when there — now the Chairman 
 has stated that the question should be allowed. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, If I agree to allow this, 1 will do so only if wo are not to have 
 it again. 
 
 Mr. HlooiNS. — t won't agree to that at all. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, if Mr. Kithet wants to i)ut a (piestion it will be heard with 
 all attention possible, but we made certain rules when we commenced this Connnission — 
 -Mr. Higgins lias said he heard questions put in New Westminster, Imt I must say it was 
 only as an exceptional case. 
 
 Mr. RiTHET. — Well, gentlemen, I very much regret indeed if such a simple reijuest 
 of mine is to be the cause of so much trouble. I am sorry that Iattenii)ted to })ut any 
 (|Uestions, but I came to this Commission under the idea that it was open to the public 
 and that every bit of evidence bearing upon the fisheries wiaild be admitted, but if I am 
 mistaken- — — 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Pardon me, sir, are you making a statement on your own account, 
 if so we must swear you tin; same as all other jiersoiis. 
 
 "Sh: RiTilET. — Well, excuse me, I was ai)ologizing. The matter about which I 
 wished to speak arose cait of the eviilence given by ]Mr. Spencer. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Still, if we allow you to be heard in this way, Mr. Kithet, we 
 will have every one else asking the same. 
 
 Mr. W.\RD. — Well the reason, Mr. Ciiairnian, that we wished to speak was because 
 we understood this Commission was for the .sifting of all facts, and if they simply sit 
 there and arrogate to themselves 
 
 10c— 17 
 
IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-S) 
 
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 t U£ 12.0 
 
 HiWM 
 
 IL25 Ifll 1.4 
 
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 I 
 
 1.6 
 
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 ^' 
 
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 Photographic 
 
 ^Sdences 
 
 Corporation 
 
 Vi WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 W^'^iTER, N.Y. 14SS0 
 
 (716) •72-4503 
 
 
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 V 
 
258 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — What is that, sir? If you .say arrogate I will request you to with- 
 draw it. * 
 
 Mr. Ward. — On reque.st, I will withdraw it — but (impressively), I do not think the 
 evidence is heiny taken impartially. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Pardon me, sir, I must call you to .order ; as Ciiairman I call you 
 to order. 
 
 Air. Waki). — Well, sir, I bow to your decision, but it is the first Connnission ever 
 I havti attended under any Government where the Chairman acted in so extraordinary 
 a manner and where matters were not represented by counsel. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — That is beside the question. 
 
 Mr. ARMSTRONfi. — ^Well, Mr. Ward, I nmst tell you that most of the evidence is 
 now taken, we have examined some 70 witnesses in New Westminster, and I think if 
 counsel was to l)e allowed it should have l)een done there. 
 
 Ml'. Ward. — But we have not had an opportunity of tfoing before the Commission. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I think if Mr. Rithet wishes to ask this (jue.stion we will 
 allow it in this one case, but on condition that none other comes up. 
 
 Mr. HiGdiNS. — I object to that ruling, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. —Well, if you object to my ruling I will withdraw my ruling, and I 
 will now rule that the question may not be put. 
 
 Mr. Hkjgin'S. — I will ask for a vote on that point. 
 
 Air. Armstrono. — Well, gentlemen, I think you jire all wrong in thinking these 
 questions should be allowed ; in a court, no one in the audience is permitted to get up 
 and ask (juestions of a wittiess who is under examination ; it is absurd ; no one but 
 practitioners are allowed to ask questions and they have to do it in a jiroper manner. T 
 would suggest that Mr. Hithet should hand up any question to me for the Chairman 
 that he desires to put and it will be put properly through the Chair. 
 
 Mr. HniiKT. — Excuse me, but I consider that you are all wrong. A Commission 
 of this kind is en irely different to a court ; a good deal of latitude is allowed and 
 greater scope in any Commission of this kind than in any court. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Certainly, AIi'. Rithet, but we cannot allow the.se que.stions to be 
 put by counsel. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — -I think if Mr. Ritliet had gone to Air. Spencer and a.sked hini any 
 question ii matters that had occurred it would be (juite right, but to come as counsel, I 
 do not consider it is correi t. 
 
 Air. Rithet. — I am told even if I had handed it in to \vitnes.s, that I would have 
 l)een checked. 
 
 •Air. Armstroxc;. — ^Wiio told you that? — A. Air. Alunn. 
 
 Air. AIiXN (from audience). — Yes ; 1 iiave seen it in Westminster. I declare I 
 ha\ e seen persons objected to because they lianded in (juestiims t<» the witness on the stand. 
 
 Air. NVilmot.^ — I may .say that such did occur in one case, but it was quite different 
 to this. At the time oltjections were taken to hearing a man. lie was (juestiouing and 
 making interruptions wliile the witness was .speaking, and, of cour.se, such could not l)e 
 allowed. We must maintain order. 
 
 Air. .1. H. Toi)i> (speaking from the audience). — Will the Commissioners allow me 
 to say a word ? T must say, in regard to the statement made l)y Air. Spencer, that 
 
 Air. Ahmstroxc; (interrupting). — You cannot be allowed to dispute any witness's 
 statements. 
 
 Air. WiLMOT. — Air. Todd can come on the stand, under oath, like any other person, 
 but \. e will not hear him in any other way. 
 
 Air. Todd (indignantly). — Well, we will retire, and not come back. 
 
 Air. Ward (from audience). — Yes; we iiave rights, and we want them respected. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — !Sit down; don't get excited. 
 
 Air. Wakd (.scornfully). — We are not excited. We are not going to be sat upon by 
 anybody. We Iiave our rights, and we are going to be he!>rd. 
 
 Air. Todd. — If we are not heard, we can leave the room. 
 
 Air. Hi(i<iixs.-- I will suggest that Air. Rithet jiut his (piestion through any of the 
 Commissioners. You come and sit along side of either of us, Air. Rithet or Air. Ward, 
 and put your questions. 
 
 / 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 259 
 
 Mr. RiTHKT. — No ; I will not put questions unless I can state them direct. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT to Mr. Wixtkk. — M»". Secretary, you will take down tlio.se words from 
 Mr. Rithet, and mine, in i-eply. He an'A he was not allowed to ask questions. 
 
 Mr. UiTiiKT (emphatically).— I have i.ot, sir : I deny that. 
 
 jVIr. WiLMOT. — Why, cei'tainly yr»u did, and that is your impression of the whole 
 matter : that you were not allowed to ask (|uestions at all, whei'eas we ottered you a 
 mode of doinj; so, which you would not accept. 
 
 Mr. Rithet. — I did not say that I was not allowed to ask questions. 
 
 Mr. HiocjiNs. Oh, never mind. It is all ri<jfht. Don't Iwtther. T, for one, am 
 willinff that you should put your ijuestion. Mr. Ftithet, do you wish to put the (|ut'stion ', 
 
 ^fr. RrrnKT. — No, thank you, Mr. Hi<.'jjins, I do not. I have nothinj; more to say. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, if there is any other sjentleman desirous of givinj^ evidence, 
 we will proceed with the e.vamination of witnes.ses. 
 
 wtions to l)e 
 
 would have 
 
 TH0MA8 BOGART, of Rock Bay. a native of Enjxland, eleven years in British 
 Columbia, a tisherman, was <luly sworn 
 
 ^Ir. Bo<iAJ{T. — I have fished for Mr. tSpencer seven seasons, and the nets we use 
 there only enclose a little part of the river, and are only in the water about half an hour 
 at a time. To my knowled<];e, in the seven years I have worked there, 1 have never seen 
 the river cl >sed to stop fish fi-om goin<j up. There was one season there was plenty of 
 fish, and more weie netted than leijuired for the cannery, and we marked some, and we 
 caught thenj the next yeai' and the next year, and in the third year. We took little 
 pieces off the tail, and could see them easily. 
 
 JJi/ Mr. Wilniot : 
 
 Q. Were fish tha^ wei-e marked larger or about the same size ? — A. Well, we could 
 not tell ; they all wei-e about the .same size ; then^ seemed no ditievence. 
 
 Q. That was in three years in succession ? - A. Yes ; that is all I have got to say. 
 
 Q. What conclusion did you come to, that they were fish returned from the waters 
 al)ove .' — A. They must liave I'etuined from above, because they came in and must have 
 got back from above. 
 
 i-i. Then your impression is that a certain proportion of fish return? — A. Yes 
 
 Q. How many fish would be caught at one haul ? — A. Six, seven and eight thou- 
 sand in a good run. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. lliijijitis: 
 
 Q. Do you know where these fish go to spawn in Nimkish River? — A. T think 
 they must go to the lakes at the head of the i-iver. 
 
 t^. Were you ever up to the lake .' - A. Yes; I ha\e been up to the rapids; 1 
 never was in the lake. 
 
 Q. Are there any artificial means to ol)struct fish going up ? — A. No. sir ; 1 have 
 seen little traps on each side, l»ut there was always room foi' many to go up, 
 
 Q. How wide are these channels? — A. Some five, some >ix, some nine hundred 
 yards. 
 
 Q. Pi-etty swift water? — A. Yes ; very hard to ))ull up. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Did you ever see fish returning in any numl)er? — A. No, sir ; lait we do not 
 stop there; we come back as soon as the fishing season is over. 
 
 By Mr. Hiffi/in." : 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed what becomes of offal ? — A. Well, some Hoats away and 
 some is eaten by fish. 
 
 Q. Are there plenty of dr)g-fish around there? — A. Yes; all kinds. 
 y. Have vou tluneany fishing in any otiierriver ? — A. In the Fraser Riverone season. ' 
 lOc— 17i f 
 
2P0 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 , 1 
 
 I 
 
 ■,ii 
 
 Mi 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Til a l)ig or ^xnnW run? — A. Tt was a big run that year. 
 
 Q. Ydu say about ottal ; some Huats away, and then does some remain on the 
 shore? — A. No ; it all Hoats away ; I never saw anv along the l)each. 
 
 Q. How long have you fished there ?— A. In '88, '89 and '90. 
 
 Q. Were any other fish brfiught to tiie cannery from places ? — A. Yes ; fi few were 
 brought over, J)ut they did not amount to very much. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea why the decrease was .so much greater there for some 
 years ?— A. I have no idea ; T cannot tell. 
 
 Q. What time of the year dt» you commence to fish?— A. About the middle of 
 June, 12th, Ifith, and so on. 
 
 /»// Jlr. Ariiiftfro)!;/ : 
 
 Q. You have heard what Mr. Spencer says in regard to nets, is all correct? — Yes; 
 that is correct ; it is 105 meshes in the middle and tapers oH" to the end. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wi/iiinf : 
 
 Q. That is, you mean to say the wings and two ends of the net are narrower? — A. 
 they are not so deep. 
 
 les 
 
 Q. And that forms a kind of bag does it not ? — A. Yes ; when you haul in on the 
 le«d lines. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : , 
 
 Q. Are any other kind of fish caught there? — A. Xo ; a few flounder.s, that is all. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Any halibut ? — A. No; not of any account ; there is noljody fishing halibut 
 there ; it is too far from market ; we have caught a few for ourselves. 
 
 Q. Have you ever fished with a gill-net ? — A. We have tried it in day time and at 
 night, but we never could catch any. 
 
 Q. What was the reason ? — A. The fish see it ; the water is as clear as June ; T 
 don't think there is any other way to catch fish there unless by seines. 
 
 Q. How far does the net go out in the river ? — A. Well, we start and go out about 
 half ^vay, and then from there fetch the net ashore. 
 
 Q. And consequently it would take everything in front of it ? — A. Yes, of course. 
 
 Q. And would the lead lines be on the bottom 1 — A. Yes ; we fish from half tide 
 up to a little near the flood. 
 
 Q. What is the height of tide there — the usual rise and fall? — A. About 16 feet — 
 between 15 and 10 feet. 
 
 Q. How far does the tide go up the river? — A. About 3 miles — between 3 and 4 
 miles. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the river ? — A. About 3 rods ; in some places not so wide ; 
 some j)laces not over one rod between the rocks ; three rods is about the broadest where 
 we fish. 
 
 Q. And on that three rods you take your net out half way ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Any times more than that? — A. No ; just about half; we hardly ever go any 
 farther ; we have to go back to shore with the net or you lose your fish ; they go out 
 
 Q. Is there any possibility of fishing with a gill-net up the river where you speak 
 of? — A. I don't think so, sir ; and then it is not very deep water, and you could not 
 use your gill-net ; it is all rocks and shallow water. 
 
 Mr. Hl(:(iixs. — Do you ever see many dead fish in the river ?^ A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. WiLM(»T. — ^Have you ever been up in the lake itself? — A. I have just been to 
 the last rapid ; I have not been in the lake. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know if there are any small streams running into the lake ? — 
 A. No : I don't know. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — That will do, sir; thank you. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISIIERT COMMISSION. 
 
 2G1 
 
 lain on the 
 
 ROBERT WARD, of the city of Victoria, British Cohunltia, a native of Enghmd, a 
 
 merchant, doing business in Victoria, and resident of British Colunil)ia since 1S70, 
 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 Mr. V/iLMOT. — Well, sir, have you anything to submit to the Connuission. 
 
 Mr. Wahd. — Well, I might state— the Commissioners might like to ask me 
 questions ? 
 
 Mr. VVlLMOT. — Well, we have a list of (juestions which we have asked witnesses ; 
 you have no statement to make?- A. I would prefer those questions being asked first. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, your views on offal? —A. Perhai)s I shmild state tirst of all 
 that during my residence in the province T have been engage<l most of the time, not 
 directly but indirectly, in the fishing industry, and I may say since the connnencement 
 of the canning industry. The offal ([uestion : my experience, as far as it goes, has not 
 shown me that it has had any l»ad effects on the water of tiie rivers ; I speak of the 
 Fraser River, because I am more intimately ac(|uainted with the Fiviser liiver than any 
 other stream in the province. It has been my duty to visit the Fraser liiveibotii during 
 the tishing season and out of season. It has been suggested that the offal might be 
 pi'ofitably disposed of other than the manner in wliicii it is thrown away at the present 
 time ; it has been suggested ti^iit it should be utilized at oil factories and converted into 
 tish guano. I may state that this has been ti'ied by a man of capital and a man of 
 practical experience and knowledge, who aftei- two seasons found that he was losing 
 money very considerably by the operation. It was also trietl as a venture to Gieat 
 Britain, which is really the only available point for shipping it, and the lesult was 
 absolute loss. I might state further that on account of its objectionable character as a 
 manure, it is very ditticult to obtain vessels to carry it. There was a shipment made 
 from Victoria four or five yeai's ago by one of the Hudson Bay vessels, and it arrived 
 home in a very dilapidated and unsatisfactory condition, and that i-esulted in loss. The 
 average price of such stuff in the old couiitry is about £7 a ton, and the freight will 
 proljably amount to oO or fiO shillings — t am speaking now on the lowest jujssible 
 estimate for which such freight could be procured. 
 
 I would like to state with legard to the Blue Book, which was i)ublished last year 
 upon the question of waste, which comes under the category of offal, that a gi'eat deal of 
 irritation was experienced among the canners on seeing the illustrations which appeared 
 showing the parts decapitated from the fish and stated to be absolute waste. 1 might 
 state that my own pc*rs(mal experience during the time 1 have indicated, is that T have 
 never seen the waste such fis is alleged in this leport, and in fuither corroboration of 
 that, with regard to these numerous pieces (showing illustrations in Report Fisheries 
 Department, 1890, p. 06-07), the tail pieces that are shown in the diagram it was 
 absolutely astonishing to myself on seeing it, for T have not only considerable experience 
 in this countiy, but I also visit the old country, wheie T see the out-put on its arrival. 
 1 may state with respect to one very large establishment a few years ago they com- 
 plained that the complaint was made by buyers that there were t(jo many tail pieces in 
 the shipments. The obvious answer to that was that we could not find fish in British 
 Columbia without tails. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT, (jocularly). Tt has been proven here, sir, that you nuike half of the 
 "tales" here. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Wahd (sarcastically) — Is that so ? (Laughter.) (Continuing). My experience 
 is only that of the Fraser River T auj not a practical canner. T might state that it 
 has been alleged by the Department that T am a canner, and that the British C</lu»"'bia 
 lioard of Trade which originally asked for this Commission to hold emiuiry -.lud 
 rather a partial enquiry it is— that this Board was conq)osed of canners. I have to put 
 in a statement in rebutal of this sentiment. It was said it was largely comjjosed of 
 Canners- now a glance at the first pages of the Annual Report of the l?ritish C(jlumi)ia 
 Board of Trade for 1891, which was printed, and a copy sent to the Department, will 
 show that only .some five or six of the membershij) are cannei's. I would like to ))ut in 
 another matter on this (|uestion of waste and it repeats much what I ha\e already 
 stated. According to the Report of Mr. Chairman, the canners think they were being 
 wrongfully represented befoie the public, because of greed, \ oraciousness, etc., and which, 
 I think, I can prove are altogether underserved. Tt is not in the interest of canners to 
 
 i . 
 
 > ' 
 
262 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 ill! 
 
 \ 
 
 3'"^ 
 
 V-- 
 
 « 
 
 do as alleged in this report, and I may say I liuve had complaints from consumers in 
 Great Britain that too many tail pieces appear. Of cimrse, it will be obvious to the 
 Commissioners, that heads and fins would not be merchantable if they were canned. 1 
 have seen offal thrown into the Ki'aser Kiver in deej» water, liut T have never seen it 
 after it has been thrown in. The current generally on the fishing grounds of the Fraser 
 River is very ra|»id, and like everything else cast into that rapid stream, it is out of sight 
 \evy quickly. Now, I do not know if the Connnlssioners would like to ask me questiims 
 about this offal ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— You say, Mr. Ward, that you are not a practical canner — you are 
 indirectly engaged in the matter — what then is your special function? 
 
 ^^r. Wahd. — I am an agent for several canning companies carrying on business on 
 the Fraser River and elsewhere. 
 
 Mr. WiLMttT. — You are agent and practically don't know their working on the river? 
 
 Mr. Wahi). I am an agent, but I ha\e many practical chances of ob.servation and 
 of seeing the woi'k lM)th in and out of season. 
 
 Ml'. ^^'ILMOT. — Are you a voluntary agent or a paid agent? — A. I am a paid agent 
 for three companies. 
 
 Q. Would you mention them ? — A. Ewen it Co. ; Bon Accord Fisheiy Co. ; A. J. 
 McLellan. 
 
 Q. Have you any interest in the canneries yourself ?- A. I have not— I may say 
 that my opinion is that the canning business is not a very favourable one, lyid I may 
 say that I would not now accept the agency (»f a cannery. I have refused some lately. 
 I have been offeied agencies fiom time tt» time which I have refused — my chief reason 
 for such refusal is that it is a very precarious business and has been for some time, and 
 I would like to state that I have been i-eading evidence taken at Westminster and I have 
 noticed that very nmnerous profits have been made by canners. I am on oath, and 1 
 state for the information of this Connnission, that as far as I have seen, no evidence has 
 been forthcoming to show how may canners have failed in this business — probably there 
 is not more than one or two outside of the P^nglish Syndicate that are well to do. I 
 have seen good menend)ark in that industry, and [ have seen them retire as paupers — I 
 will not mention names for personal reasons — but I know that in one case whei"e 
 thou.sands of pounds were in that industry eml)arked on the Fraser River and in a few 
 years, not only the capital had gone but also some !?30,000. During the last five years, 
 seven canners have absolutely failed. 
 
 Q. And you are stating this as their agent? — A. As one intimately connected wich 
 the whole business. 
 
 Q. The purchase and sale of the article manufactured ? — A. \''es ; .salmon is like 
 any othei- article of manufacture it fluctuates with supply and demand, and though in 
 some seasons it has been j>rofitable, I have known others in which it has not oidy been 
 unprofitable, but aUsolute loss to pack it, and I would like to mention in corroboration 
 of that fact, that at the time when the system in vogue on the Fraser River was prac- 
 tically an unlinuted system of licenses — during the years 1883, 1884 and 1885 — where 
 as a matter (f fact the cannei-s should have pi'ocured as many cases of .salmon as they 
 pleased, they were deterred from i)ushing their business by the poor condition of the 
 market and instead of packing, as they could, — eight canners in 1884 absolutely closed 
 down .altogether. In 1885, six of them closed down there from same reasons, and at 
 that time also the system of licenses was prjictically uidimited. I might state that one 
 argument in suj)port of what I have stated in regard to the precarious character of the 
 business is the result of the uncertainty of the i-egulations. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I trust you will nc t consider that I am at all interrupting you, but 
 as this is solely the (piestion of offal, the question of licenses would bring the matter up 
 on which you are speaking. 
 
 Mr. Wakij. — Very gofxl, sir ; T am in your hands ; oidy one question leads to 
 anothei', I would prefer, perhaps, if you would question me. 
 
 Jit/ Mi: Wihnnt : 
 
 Q. Y'ou say you are indirectly engaged with cannerie.s, not directly ? — A. Not 
 directlv. 
 
BRITIBH COLUMBIA FISHGRT COMMISSION. 
 
 263 
 
 iiiected wich 
 
 m leads to 
 
 Q. And you think you can <iivp prai-tiral answers to tliese questions in regard to 
 oannei'ies ? — A. Yes; most decidedly. 
 
 Q. J)<» you know how many tish may be taken during one run and taken to the 
 cannery T-A. No; of course J cainiot state exactly. I am not familiar with them. 
 
 Q. You know tish when you see them ,' — A. Yes ; I know them very well. 
 
 Q. You know sockeye ? — A. Yes ; I am familial- with it. 
 
 Q. And what do you think the average size of .sockeye would be ? — A. About 8 
 pounds; they vary ; I have seen them smaller at times. 
 
 Q. Have you an idea what number of cans would be matle out of an S-pound 
 ti.sh?— A. I believe four or five. T am speaking without the book, Mr. Chairman, I 
 don't cut up fish. The cans when filletl go up to 20 and 22 ounces. 
 
 Mr. AViLMoT. — Hut it is a pound lan. 
 
 Mr. Wahd. — Yes ; it is a pound can, but we always give more. 
 
 Jhj Jfr. Wit mot : 
 
 Q. And then the balance between the number of <'ans and the weight of the fish 
 must be ott'al, would it not I — A. Yes ; offal, blood, et- , but this tail piece is much too 
 large in this diagram ; it is not correct. 
 
 Q. Well, I will draw your attention to the Departmei»tal Report for 1889. Tf 
 you will take this book, sir, you will see that 14,789,8.")0 cans of salmon were put up. 
 Well, now, sir; if 5 pounds represents a salmon, that would take 2,957,971 salmon to 
 ]>ut up that nund»ei' <>i cans, and a good proportion of them must be offal? — A. Yes ; a 
 propoi'tion of the whole would cei'tainly be offal, that would be about ^ of the whole 
 would be offal, blood, etc. 
 
 Q. And 14,789,8.")() pounds of salnum canned would be how much gross weight of 
 fish ? — A. Well, it would be practically impossible to get at the exact figures. I have 
 seen cans weigh 22 ounces ; I have seen them weigh 24 ounces. I may safely say the 
 cans always weigh more than a p<iund. 
 
 Q. AVell, but in taking millions we need not take these odd ounces ? — A. Well, but 
 if you are taking millions of pounds these millions of ounces will i-un up to many 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. Well, fur argument's sake we will take the figures. Tn 1889 there were put up 
 
 14,789,856 one-poiMifl cans, now A. Pardon me, are you speaking of the Fraser 
 
 liiver or "the whole of Briti ih Columbia? 
 
 Q. Vs'e are taking the catch as laid down in the Departmental Rei>ort of 1889. — 
 A. Well, if that api)lies to the whole of British Columbia, of course the quantity of 
 the Fraser River would be a little more than half the aggregate. 
 
 Q. Yes; the reason T am .asking you the.se questions is because I think these figures 
 are put in by the Koai-d of Trade : the Fraser River alone, and south to the American 
 boundary, gave 14,789,85t) cans : this would be, say, •{ of the total weight of fish caught 
 to produce that number of cans ; then the total weight would be alK)Ut 2."^,()<);?,7G9 
 [)Ouncls, and as the difference, it is admitted, would be offal, that would leave 8,873,913 
 pounds of offal. — A. Well, I am not prepared to support or dispute such a statement as 
 that, because T say the actual figures are impossible to obtain, first, on account of the 
 overweight in the cans, and 
 
 t^. But twiqp two are four, and so on your know. — A. Oh, yes, of course ; but I 
 am not prepared to say anything but that a very large (piantity must have been thrown 
 away. 
 
 C^. Now are these figures given an exaggeration / — A. An exaggeration ? T said 
 the exaggeration which I had reference to was this di.agram, showing the way the 
 canners were supposed to cut up their fish. 
 
 Q. But these statements by the figures? — A. Well, T think it (juite possible the 
 figures might be incorrect. I (lon't think you poorly paidofiicials always get the correct 
 figures. 
 
 Q. Well, but these figures, I understand, are given the department by the Board 
 of Triule themselves. — A. I don't think that (examining the returns in the report in. 
 question) all these are not the same as ours — certainly not. 
 
264 
 
 MARINE AND FI8H1BIES. 
 
 liij Mr. Wilmol : 
 
 Q. Well, but if th«> Blue Book is convctly tiik«'ii fi-oin authentic «loeuiiients sent in 
 would it he an exag<,'e;"' tion to state that there were 1 4,7H0,>'^')fi cans put up in 1889 ? — 
 A. I have already i-eplicd to that <|uestion. 
 
 Q. IJut is there an exaggeration there?— A. Yes, I think so, as I have pointed out, 
 because diere is not the actual waste as descril)ed in these illustrations (showing 
 diagianis, pp. GO-7, report, Dej)artnient of Fisheries, 1S90). 
 
 Q. Tn your work as broker and agent, figures when added together ai'o supposed to 
 be correct, are they not? — A. Well, Mr. Chairman, excuse nie ; T think that a frivolous 
 (juestion. 
 
 Q. lUit I do not think so ; these figures must be correct ; you stated the weight of 
 fish is about S pounds, and that about 4.', to 5 cans are made from each tish ?- -A. Yes ; 
 but I say it is simply impossible to account for it like that, with the vai-ying weight of 
 sockeye, and the varying weight of the cans ; you will not find two cans to agree. T 
 will say this, Mr. Chairman, that if every salnK)n that is caught weighs 8 pounds, and 
 every salmon makes five cans, your figures are probably correct. 
 
 Q. That is all right, sir ; .some make up 7 pounds and make oidy four cans.- -A. 
 Yes ; but the loss would not be so great as shown 
 
 Q. Then to the best of your knowledge the figures as shown are correct ? — I have 
 already replied to that same (juestion, and if your stenographer will look back he will 
 .see I have replied. 
 
 Q. (Jh, all right, sir, never mind ; T think he has taken it down correctly. Now, 
 Mr. Ward, you have here these statements, and which have been endorsed by almost 
 every gentleman who has come before this Comndssion, that they are not incoirect, not 
 exaggerated, and I must say that report was hurriedly written, and it was particularly 
 in the fisheries interest as far as liritish Colund)ia was conceined. 
 
 Mr. Wauij. — Mr. Chairman, ai-e you giving evidence now? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — No, but I am simply stating that you must have been misled in 
 stating that this Report was incori-ect, exaggerated, etc. — now regarding the leport of 
 the British Columbia Board of Trade for 18'Jl — as you have affixed your signature to 
 that report J presume, that everything said in that report meets with your approval ? — 
 A. Yes, certainly. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Then T suppose you mean to .say that you approve of this sentence ? 
 (Reading fi-om British Columbia Bourd of Trade Report for 18i)l.) 
 
 " Tiie Minister while favourable to the suggestion, did not find it cijnveinent to 
 carry it out, but instructed Mr. Wilmot, who is connecteil with the Fisheries Department 
 to visit the province and give his views upon the question. These latter were obtained 
 during a visit of two days on the Fraser River and wee duly communicated to the 
 ]\[inistei' in a report since published, and which owing to the few hours n which the 
 ol>servadon.s were made, was consequently full of inaccuracies, exaggeiaiti::is, and state- 
 ments of a generally nusleadiug character throughout, and was theref< .-e of little prac- 
 tical value. The indulgence in gratuitious and insulting reference lo our .cannery 
 proprietors is a marked and regrettable featui-e of Mr. Wilmot's repoi-t." 
 
 Well, sir ; if any impartial gentleman will say that these statements aie incorrect — 
 are exaggerations ? 
 
 Mr. Ward. — Well, I will say, ^Ir. Chairman that I am responsible for that repoit 
 - — I alone am responsible for that report, but Mr. Chairman, this was written upon your 
 own report — I will read it, sir. 
 
 (Annual Report, Department of Fisheries, 1890, p. G7.) 
 
 "The question arises why should such a sacrifice of fish-food be allowed, to gratify 
 the avarice of the packet's and the fastidious taste of the wealthier class of consumers ! 
 Why not compel the cannei- to arrange his business so that this wanton waste of fish 
 shall be largely dinnnished ; to induce him to put up two classes of goods, equally suit- 
 able to the wants and means of the richer and poorei- classes of consumers ; or if this 
 should be incompatible with the trade, why not convert this vast quantity of fish matter, 
 now thrown away as offal, into usefulness of some kind, in the way of oil, or fertilizers 
 of stmie description ?"' 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY C05IMISSION. 
 
 265 
 
 s sentence ? 
 
 ucorrect- 
 
 N<»\v, sir ; I declare tliiit piini^nipli to lie pusitively iiiisleudiiif,' mid I may say, sir, 
 in speaking up dn- the canners, that T have l)een one ot' the most persistent persons 
 advocating this Commission and I would say that \ am not doing it for personal ends at 
 all, but for the Itenetit (tf tiie country. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.- Well, perhaps I am getting heyond the decorous duty of a chairman, 
 Imt as one representing the Department, I feel Ixnind to tell you that my information 
 was gleanetl from people on the ground, and as F say -on p. (17 of the report referred 
 to:- 
 
 " T may here at the heginning state that I learned from the general expressions 
 given hy all parties that no serious oltjections were raised to the working of the jaesent 
 regulations." 
 
 Mr. W.viU). T say, sir, that is an exaggeration. 
 
 Mr. Wii,MoT. -Excuse me, how could y;iu say that was an exaggeration if you 
 \<'ere not present ? 
 
 Mr. WahI). IJecause, sir, f know that no one could gather information on a two 
 days" visit down the Frast-r Hiver. 
 
 Mr. W II, MOT. I gathered sutticient informati(»n. 
 
 Mr. Wako. -Then sir, you g<. on to say in your report : (p. (17). 
 
 "It will nevertheless be understood that, with an industry so extensively carried 
 on as the salmon canning business is, on the Fraser Hiver. it would be extiaordinary 
 indeed not to Hnd some grumbling, especially among the more sellish and grasping 
 persons engaged in the trade." 
 
 Mr. WlLMoT. Well, is there anything in that not coi-rect '. 
 
 Mr. Wahi). Ye.s, I have been connected with this n\atter for years am 1 a greedy, 
 grasping, selfish person? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -I do not know anything about that, sir. 
 
 Mr. Waiu). — Then a little further on, you say : — 
 
 "It was universally admitted that this great natural product of the waters should 
 lie more carefully husbanded than hitherto, and that it was the bounden duty of the 
 Fi.shery Department to surround the industry with such judicious regulations as would 
 prevent this f'.rfrnvnifduf and iiit/trovldenf fishing " 
 
 AVhat extravagant and what improvident fislnng, I would like to know ? And then, 
 again, on the next ))age of your report, you go on to say : 
 
 " If the number of l)oats were to be increa.sed because the numiu'r of salmon were 
 less in any ore year, it would simply mean that the dei)artnient would be aiding the 
 (nyiricimis fi: .erinen to destioy, in a greater degree, the reduced stock of salmon enter- 
 ing the river, whilst if the desire is to husl)and this industry, the true plan would be to 
 reduce the numl)er of l)oats for the season in which there might be a reiluced run of fish 
 in the river." 
 
 ^^ Aiiinir t\u' mrnrieioim Jis/if't'iiKin .'" I think, sir, it is most unfair to lil>el our 
 good fishermen in that manner, and to abuse those who, to the credit of the community, 
 have brought the salmon canning industry up to its present proportions. 
 
 Mr. Wii-MOT. — Regarding that paragrai)h you have just read, is that wrong on the 
 part of a public otficer who is interested in [)ublic atl'airs ! 
 
 Mr. Wahu. — Well, sir, I certainly think it is wrong to a class of persons who, to 
 the credit of this country, have built up the industry to its present condition. That is 
 all I have to say at present. 
 
 Mr. AinisTitoxci. — I was just going to say I would object to any further personalities. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;»iiNs. — Well, I think this recrimination between the witness and Chairman 
 is not right. I never in my life saw a Chairman doing like this. It ought not to be 
 done. No Chairman should enter into a wrangle with a witness. Mr. Armstrong and 
 I had a conversation about this on the first niorning we started, and we thought you 
 should not lead a witness up to answer certain questions in a ceitain way. 
 
 (From audience.) — Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Order, order, please. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, Mr. Higgins, I may state that the question of offal was being 
 discussed, and Mr. Ward stated that misleading statements were made as regards the 
 amount of offal and the number of cans, and I merely asked ^Ir. Ward how it was .so. 
 
T 
 
 26U 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIEa. 
 
 
 Mr. AinisTi«)N<i. -WVll, an- yim yoinj; over the whoU* (|iiesti<)ii aj^ain ? 
 
 Mr. \Vii,M<»T. — No ; we were simply titidiii;; out how t'oncft these matters were. 
 Now, to j,'o oil with the questions. Have you any idea it' this oHal can he iiiiuie into 
 any valuahle pioduet? 
 
 Mr. W.xKi).-^ No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you helieve it injurious to the river .' -A. I believe it is not injurious. 
 
 (.}. Wliat is your helief as regards sanitary nmtters ,' — A. 1 think if it remains 
 upon the shore it wouhl he a nuissanee and daiij;er 
 
 Q. In the interest of canners and tishermen, would it not lie advisable they should 
 do away with it in some manner ! A. I don't understand your <|uestioii, Mr. C'hairman. 
 
 Mr. WiKMoT. The law says anyone throwing; ofl'al in shall lie liable to a tine. — A. 
 I should say it is jierfectly safe to throw it in deep water (»r in tiie eliannel of the river. 
 
 C^. Is it all thrown in the fhannel now ! - A. Well, in .some places I suppose it is 
 not. Ff lodfiiiij,' on the banks of a slouj^h, f would think it injurious to those who have 
 to live near it. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — liow about the limitation of nets ; have you anything to .say about 
 them ? 
 
 Mr. Wakd. -T stated a short time since that in 18S4, at a time when the system 
 of licenses was jiractically unlimited, the number of ca.ses packed on the Fraser Hiver 
 was |{4,0;{9 cases ; that in coiLsecjUence of depres.sion in the markets <,'eneral y there was 
 no inducement to tish, either in 1)SS4 or iJ^S"), to the full extent of the canneries then 
 existinj;. Eight canneries closed down in \^f<i, and six closed down in 188"). From 
 the working of the system of licenses which has been in force during the last few years, 
 I am .satisfied that an unlimited system of licen.ses would not injure the river and would 
 not lead to over-tisliing, because T think, though fish are plentiful, which shows that 
 there is no fear of over-Hshing, at a time when there is no demand, or at any rate a 
 poor demand for the product of the canneries, it would be impossible for any fairly 
 well-equipped cannery to rely on less than twenty-tive licenses, and even this would not 
 be sufficient and often very inadeciuate owing to the variability of the run on the Fraser 
 River. 
 
 Jit/ Mr. Wi/inot : 
 
 Q. Then should it be unlimited to canners and fishermen .'—A. If unlimited the 
 river should lie open to all. 
 
 Q. Whether a British subject or not? — A. Well, I had hardly thought of that ; T 
 think our fishermen went over to the Columbia River. 
 
 Voice. — No. 
 
 Mr. Wahi) (contiiuiing). — No? I would not care to exjiress any opinion upon 
 that, Mr. Chairman. I may .say that licenses to fishermen are of no jiractical value 
 unless there are canneries. What I mean is, if y(ai do away with canneries only a very 
 lew flshermen indeed would be needed, becau.se it would take very few to supply the 
 local markets of liritfsh Columbia, and as for the freezing business, it is not of much 
 account on the Fra.ser Hiver. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Q. And do you think that licenses should lie given to all canneries 
 erected? — A. Well, I do not .see, Mr. Cliairinan, how you can prevent canneries being 
 erected : I think those canners engaged in business should certainly have protection, 
 but I know of no law which woulil prevent anyone buikliug canneries on any river in 
 the province. 
 
 Q. How protect them, then? — A. Well, I wouhl make the licen.ses unlimited, 
 because peojile would soon go out of bu.siness if there was no money in it. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the close season ? — A. I think the close season as at 
 present arranged is very satisfactory, because it practically means that Sunday is kept 
 for a day of rest, but it is absolutely necessary for fishermen to go out, say at G o'clock, 
 so as to be prepared with the raw product on Monday morning. 
 
 Q. You say Sunday should be kept? — A. I do not say that I do believe in Sabbath 
 desecrati<tn by any means, but the fishing industry is very peculiar ; it only lasts for 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 96T 
 
 soiiio weeks, and evt-ry latitiulc slimild Im; ullowt'd to p«'iiiiit tlios*- ♦•ii;,'iiy«Ml in it to rurrv 
 on liusiiu'ss without loss. To niak*' ll»' (.•lose tiint* iiny time at't«M' (» o'clix-k on Sunday 
 would 1m' very l»ad. 
 
 ii. And you tliink it coireot as now? — A. Ws ; I think it cori'fft. 
 
 il. And you think it injurious to trad*' if fxtcndt-d to 12 oVlock .' — A, Ws ; t 
 think so ; as i«'i,'ards the desecration of the Saidiath, I always understoiNl it was th« 
 seventh <lay ; I take it you mean Sunday, Mr. Cliairnian .' 
 
 ii. Yes; I mean Sunday. A. Well. I maysay there woidd he fai' more desecration 
 upon the Friisei' liivei', if Sunday was totally ohserved as a day of rest ; the men around 
 the fishing camps are men of all nationalities and addicted to drinkinj; and riotin;;, etc., 
 and there would only i)e more of it if the time was extended. 
 
 C^. Then you tliink all Sunday shcjuld not he observed ? — A. Yes ; for the reasons 
 [ have just stated. 
 
 C^. What do you think of an annual close season ?— A. i think it <|uite ri^dit and 
 as rej,'ards the dates practically aj^reed ujion Wy the fishermen, 1 hardly carry them in 
 my head, hut 
 
 i}. Hut you think it advisable to have a close -reason, and the one now in operation 
 is correct .'—A. You say " in ojieration " / 
 
 (.}. Well, I was just thinking that there was no established close seasoti, is there 
 Ml'. Inspector ? 
 
 Mr. McNah (from audience). -No, sir ; none at all. 
 
 Mr. Wako. -I would iikjiv readily defer to the experience and opinions of more 
 practical canners on that subject than venture views of iny own, but T miiiht state that 
 all the canners ajjreed upon this : That the fishing seasctn should commence upon the 1st 
 of Ararch pf each year, and that from the 1st March to the L'atli August fishing to be 
 allowed with not less than H^' inch mesh ; from 2r)th August to*_'r)th September, both days 
 inclusive, fishing should be allowed with nets not lees than 7-inch mesh, and from '_'.")tli 
 September to l.st N(»veinl)er, fishing should be allowed with nets not less than ojj'-inch 
 mesh, and from 1st November to 1st March should be an absolute close season annually. 
 
 //// Mr. W'lhtiot : 
 
 Q. Yes ; well these are similar suggestions that have been made on previous occa- 
 sions, so you are all unanimous on that jioint. Have you any opinion to give on the 
 artificial breeding of fish .' — A. No ; I have none at all. 
 
 Q. Then on the proportion of licenses, should they be transferable? — A. T do not 
 think there shoulil be trafiicking in licenses such as have been described ; Iiouk Jlde 
 fishermen or canners should have them. 
 
 y. Do you think there should be any discrimination in the price paid for a license ? — 
 A. No; I am of opinion that if a license fee is charged it should be uniform. 
 
 Q. Now, I think we have gone through all the (piestions put to witnesses, if you 
 
 have anything further A. Well, T was just going to suggest that in the opinion of 
 
 some of us, seeing that the seat of (Tovernment is so far away, that an Advisory JJoard 
 should be appointed by the Government similar to what prevails in the United States 
 and so they could be well ac(|uainted with all matters relating to the fisheries ; we feel 
 that from subordinate officers, poorly paid, the important duties cannot be carrietl out 
 efiiciently, and that is the main reason why we think an Advisory Board should be 
 establi.shed. 
 
 Q. What numlier would you say for the IJoard I — A. T would say three tn- five, but 
 I have not given any thought to that. I can assure the Commission that it is the 
 unanimous wish of the cannei-s who are engaged in this important industry to have the 
 regulations placed upon a permanent basi.s, so that all engaged therein can make their 
 calculations as to their operations for the season. T may state that for some time this 
 has not been so, and such a state of things must cause those (engaged to meet with loss, 
 etc. We have many ditiiculties ti> contend with and esjiecially with the matter of. 
 lalxjur. It is difficult to obtain a class of white men such as is necessary in a cannery, 
 because they will not come forward and offer themselves for the small wages for employ- 
 ment for such a short time ; it is a fluctuating business and may terminate at any 
 moment, especially if the run of fish are not satisfactory. 
 
t\ 
 
 2(]8 
 
 MARINE AND FIHIIEKIES. 
 
 ii. Art* you nf the npinion timt siitisfaetoiv rt'jfulatioMS would iiiaiittain the run of 
 fish '/-A. Y.'s. 
 
 (.}. Ar«' you of opinion tliat ovor-tishin;,' may iiijurf a rivt-r .' -A. I would nay, y»'s, 
 if pi'opiM' I't'.sti'ic-tioiiH wci'(* not mail*' if you allownl th** tisliin;; to Itt* i-anit'd on \iy traps 
 or otiier improper uiranH of nitrliin); tht*m ; but I do not tliink anything like tliat is 
 carried o:i on any of oui' rivers. 
 
 /li/ Mr. ArniHfron;/ : 
 
 Q. Do you know if Mr. iSjiratt made any really good guano while he was working 
 at it ,' — A. Yes ; he made very good guano. It was analyzed l»y parties in the old 
 country, who got very good results fiom it. 1 know as a fertilizer it was very strong. 
 
 i}. Was it through him it wa- shipped to Knglaiid /— A. Yes. I may say, Mr. 
 Connnissioners, in regard to this gr.ino, it is most hard to get the guano away, because 
 vessels persistently refuse to take it. Mr. Kitliet can tell you that he lias had tons of it 
 at a time which he Ims not been able to get away. Then the freight is very high, an<l 
 you get some £7 a ton in the old country. 
 
 /{'/ Mr. Wiiinitt : 
 <,^. Is that in its rough state .' — A. No ; this was in the prepared state. 
 
 Jtj/ Mr. ArmMroruj : 
 C^. liiit when it was sent, did it arrivi 
 
 in 
 
 good condition.' A. Well, no; m)t 
 
 exactly. I may say it got mi.\ed up on board the vessel with Hsh oil, etc., and it was in 
 a bad state, but they got goo<l results from it but a poor jirice. 
 
 (.^. Have you heard of complaints of the ellects of offal put in the riveif? — A. No. 
 Well, 1 will say I have heard people at Ladners Landing complain ot' the bad efl'ects of 
 the slough close by, but never knew that it was on account of theoH'al that was allowed 
 to go into it. 
 
 ii. Have you ever been there in fishing season .'- A. Oh, yes ; hundreds of times. 
 
 t^. Have you ever .seen anything there on the water.' — A. No; it is sluggish 
 water. There i.s a slough at the Hon Accord cannery, but T have never in my life seen 
 anything of the kind. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. JJi'iyins : 
 
 Q. Mr. Waid, how long have you been a close ol)server of fi.shing operations on the 
 Fraser Kiver f — A. Ever since 1S71 oi- lf<7l*. 
 
 <J. Have you been connected with the industry during that periml 1 — A. Yes, I have. 
 
 <^. Then you would be in a position to give a pretty go(Kl idea as to the permanency 
 of the fisheries. 1 think for a time there were no regulations for carrying on the fish- 
 eries, e.xcept what canners might have made themselves. Now, has there been a decrea.se 
 of salmon on account of those contlitions '. — A. No. On the contrary, I think they have 
 increased. In 1S91 the pack shows it was say, 1,0UU cases more than the year previous, 
 and other years in tlie same way. 
 
 <j. Then you tiiink fish are not <lecreasing ? A. Not decreasing ; and I may say T 
 quite think the clo.se sea.son is sufficient to protect the fish. The Chairman, if he had 
 any idea of the multitufles that come up, lie would not fear the diminution of ti.sh in the 
 rivei'. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — We have heard the more fish are caught the better they will breed. 
 (Laughter.) A. I am glad to hear it. 
 
 Mr. HujciN.s. — I wouki like to read a couple of extracts from Mr. Mowat's report, 
 fisheries statements, 1890, pp. 173-4: — 
 
 "The run of fish on the Fraser River commenced nearly a month later than usual, 
 Jind although very few canners had made prepai-ations for a large pack they entertained 
 fears of being unable to fill their orders, as the lioats during the month of July, which is 
 usually the best month for fishing, only averaged ten to twelve fish each per day. This con- 
 tinued until about the 10th of August, when the largest body of fish that is known to 
 have ascended it for some years reached the river, raising the average catch per boat 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 269 
 
 IV life seen 
 
 from 300 to HOO fish per day. So sudden wiis tliis enoini'Hjs run offish that In-fore 
 canners had time to order their lioat hands to stop tishinj; the canneries were over- 
 stoeked, and in some instances fisli had to Ite th "own away. This hir^je run continued 
 until the last of August, when the canners completed their pucks, and it is safe to say 
 that (|uite as many fish ascended the river as in l.SfSU, except that the run did not last 
 quite so long. 
 
 "On the Hkeena liiver the run was exceedingly large. Canners used all the tins 
 they had on hand, and only worked a portion of their Itoats, which averaged .'tOU to 700 
 tish per day. The Standard Packing Company, while packing their last l',000 cases, 
 kept their cannery supplied with four boats." 
 
 That is a correct statement of things in IMUO, Mr. Ward. 
 
 Mr. Waui). — "Well, no ; not in my experience have 1 known of any (piantity of fish 
 thrown away ; of course, sometimes when a few fish on the wharf get sj)oilt it might he 
 necessary to throw them away ; hut not in any quantity, 1 am sure. I liad not 'cnown 
 of that report or I would have contradicted it. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i«ii.\.s. — Well, you think from statistics that fish ar' incrt-asing ; if T was 
 giving evidence 1 would attribute it to the fish hatchery. 
 
 Mr. WahI).— Yes ; but Mr. Mowat v,a8 connected with the fish hatchery, and of 
 course would be more in a pctsition to speak of that matter. 
 
 Mr. Waim). — Have you anything more, Mi-. Chairman? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Nothing more, sir. 
 
 Mr. Wah!) thereupon left the witness stand. 
 
 Mr. Hkujixs. — T would like, Mr. Chairman, that subp<enas be issued for the follow- 
 ing gentlemen : A. W^. Smith, M.P.P., A. J. '^IcLelhin, J. L. l^^ym(md, Capt. J. Irvine 
 ami Hon. P. O'Reilly. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, you must remember, gentlemen, the (juestion of expenditure 
 C'/Uk"- up in this; if this member of Parliament cniies he will perhaps want some in- 
 demnity. 
 
 Mr. AitMSTRONJi — T should lil'3 Mr. Smith to be aske<l ; I don't think the (juestion 
 of indemnity will be raised. 
 
 After a short infoi'mal discussion, during which several gentlemen pi-esent agreed 
 to see the other gentlemen and ask then, to attend and give evidence. A subpo-na 
 was issued for the attendance of His H(»nour Judge O'Reilly, 
 
 The Commission adjourned at 1 p.m., to resume at the same place at 2.30 p.m. 
 
 ions on the 
 
 Af'tfruiion SfSAion. 
 
 The Commission was convened at 2.30 p.m. 
 
 Victoria, 3i'd March, 1892. 
 
 Present; Mr. S. Wilmot, presiding; Mr. Sheriff Anustrong and Mr. Secretary 
 Winter. 
 
 ROBERT PATTERSON RITHET, a native of Scotland, residing in British 
 Columbia for 29 years, a merchant doing business in Victoria, was duly swoi-ii. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Now, sir, if you are desirous of subnntting anything to the Coin- 
 mission in reference to this question of the fisheries of British Columbia ? — A. I would 
 prefer to l)e asked the usual questions. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, the first on the list is the offal investigation — what have you 
 to say in regard to that — its effects on the river — for sanitaiy purposes, etc. 'l 
 
 Mr. RiTHET. — Would it not be better to locate me and my interests in the busi- 
 ness more intimately to begin with ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Yes. 
 
 Mr. RlTiiET. — 1 am interested directly and indirectly in this industiy — I have been 
 in business since 1876 as agent and owner. I :.ave interests in the Delta, Laidlaw it Co., 
 Wellington, and Harlock canneries on the Eraser River, and the Cascade on the Naas 
 and Standard on the Skeena, and am also agent for Cunningham on the Skeena and a 
 syndicate in Lowe Inlet. 
 
&: 
 
 i r 
 
 270 
 
 MAKINE AND KIsliRRtKS. 
 
 Jijf Mr. W'ifniot : 
 
 (.^>. |)«»'s (liis iipply to llu' Kii<;lisli syiuiirafc ? A. No. Wo Imve siiiijily a Nu-al 
 syiitlicat«> we do not rail in any oiitsitlc i-apital. 
 
 Q. 'I'Im'U it is a i'onil>iiu'<l laisiiu'ss liotli on tlir I'last-r IJivcr and Skocna your 
 position is iIumi Inttl; iwnt'i' and ai^ont ,' A. Yos sir ; with ii-jjaid to llifoftal tpit'stion 
 it has lit'cn tn'micntly discusM-d and we liaxc pMifially liccn •{iiidt-d liy thr information 
 yivcn us l>y praitiral men tliat is th»' inana^i'is ot' lh»' ninni'iifs, and \v»' havos(>iit»usly 
 nMisidfifd till' (|Ufsl ion, liotli toroufown intcit'sts and in the intoivst.s of rvciy one »>lst> 
 wlio wouhi Im' likely to hr t'lVi'ctcd. We would he only to ylatl if we «'ould without xt'iy 
 serious loss and inconv fuitMUT tlisposc of this otVal in surh a way as to niikc it neither 
 injurious to tisli life in tlie rivei- or disai;reeul)U« to oin- neis^hliours. I lm\4' always lieen 
 stron«;ly of opinion that if it were |iossil)le to dispose of it l»y utilizing it in some way it 
 ouyht to <hine, and when the (iovcrnment saiti that it would have to lie disposed of ai\d 
 the repi-esentations which were made were so stronv; in fa\our of making it an arti«'le 
 of eonnn»'iet> instead of throwini; it away. I considered that o\ir canneries on the ri\er 
 should make ell'oits to dispose of it l>y utili/in<; it, anil in conse(|Uence a tish oilery which 
 was not woikin;,' up to mat time, was tomliined with our institutions to a certain extent, 
 and »ve utilized it last suunner. 
 
 i). Is that the oiu' opjiosite the |)elta.' A. .1 ust opposite the |)elta it is the only 
 one on the ri\(M\ 'I'he result I know sulliciently delinitely now ti> say it is ^oiny tocosi 
 us a loss of lietween .'r<'J, (*()() anil Sl5,()t)l> for this season. We ha\«' disposed of the oil at 
 the i)est price we could ifet, hut we ha\e not yet succeeded in tindiny a market for the 
 •{uano, and 1 am aide over a wi'itten correspondence with oin- people in lMi;j;land to ship 
 some of it there and I tlo not know of any othei' out let for it, except the Sjindw ich 
 Islands, where they ar«' usini; a utiod deal of fertilizer, liiit thoujjh I ha\e sent samples 
 of it down thei'c. anti from the oilery at Nelleisloo, for whii-h we are also aijents, antl 
 where tlu'y extract heri-iny oil and dry the refus»> for fertilizer, I find the Saiulwii'h 
 IslandiMs prefer the hone dust manure to the tish ijuano, even at half j>rice I may say. 
 and in conseipu'nce 1 am come to a complete standstill totlisposeof theprocUn'l. If we 
 have to put it in 
 
 i). Where is Nellersloo .' .\. In Alaska. I may say last summer we sent a ship 
 to Nellersloo and wc loaded her with heriiiiij; oil aiul yuano. and thoujmh the caryfo of 
 oil and <;uano arri\ed in hiiii^iand in •.tooil order and ipiite up to samples that had heen 
 sent, as yet there is no sale for it and \ery little hope of disposinu' of it. I ha\(>al.so 
 discussed \ery thorouijhly with my own people the disposal assumiiii; that the oiiei'y is 
 a failure what is next liest to iie done, and I think I am willinu' to a,u;ree with them 
 that if the oiVal is deposited in the current oil' shore it would cease to he olijectionahle to 
 anyliody to any extent, liasi season, I made a point of noinij throu>ih all the canneries 
 just as tlu>y w«>re I'losinu;, and t was very .i;fatified to find that (>veu the canneries which 
 were not disposiiisf of the otl'al as our canneries were, weie very sweet and clean and that 
 there were no si^fiis of theoiVal remaininj^ after a day or t wo. and that no injurious elVects 
 were caused, and u)> to the present time I do not think it has had any injm'ious etl'ect. 
 In the last two years, as fai' as our experience has i^one, the sup|)ly of tisli has In-en 
 jj;reater than it has ever heen of course, this lu'xt year we expe«'t an on'vearand haidly 
 look for anv i;i'''at run this vear. 
 
 ^lul 
 
 Then <'verv eilort has heen put forth to utilize this oH'al, and it has heen ui 
 A. Yes." 
 
 isuc 
 
 <k>. .\nd ynu luiv»> had hut one year's ■experience .' A. Yes ; that is all. 
 (.,,•. And you ace satislied that nothiny; further could he done to overconu- this gi-eat 
 diHicidty hetween the people and the canners f A. AVell, it perhaps couhl he done with 
 
 H'reater expenditure of cajii 
 
 ilal. W 
 
 e wi're the oidy one on the river who kept up 
 
 to th 
 
 reiculations. I don't think the (iovfi'innenl will imleundfy us. 
 
 Mr. Wll.Mo'i'. Perhaps the (iovennnent will put it to vour credit as reyards past 
 years. (Laughter.') 
 
 Air. .ViiMS'i'HONi;. Mr. |{ilhet. do you kn»>vv the law has Iteen in force for many 
 years proiiihil inu; you from castinij; in this olVal .' 
 
 .^lr, KrniKT, Well, l>i:t if we yet the ( iov ernment to pass ai> ( >rder in Council, it 
 will override that law. 
 
IIKITISII COI.UMIUA KI8IIKUY COMMISSION. 
 
 271 
 
 luM'll \1IISIU' 
 
 Mr. AinisTUoN"!. — \V»>1I, vou will tiiul tlml it is imt inchidi**! in llu'ir jmiwit. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. I <lo not think tluMc Ims fvcr ln'cn an Onlci- in I'ouiu'il t'lvoinj; tli»> 
 rivoi' fi'oni tht> opiMations of tlitit law. 'riicif may l>t>, lint I do not knoNV of thnn. 
 
 Ml". Itirill'.T. \\'i>ll. tlific ninst Iw an Onlcr in Council, I think, ln'cansc \vc woi't* 
 (old tin* i»'ju;iilations would 1m> t'nt'orccd as hcrt'tot'oic. 
 
 Mr. .\hmstuom;. Well, you nuiy nmsnlt your lfi,'al advisers; ilicii' is the .\ct. If 
 any on»' oonijilains, you i-an W lint'il rvciy tiuic. 
 
 /)'// Mr. Witmot : 
 
 ij. Then if a line is intlictcd, it is then the |)iivilc;if of tln> Minister to n-ntit that 
 lino; Imt as regards tlli^s tlisjiosal of otVal, you have found it nnprolitaiili' .' .\. Yes; 
 and I foniltinc the ex|H'ri»'nco of others. Mr. Spi-atI uinl others. It is not a new thiny;. 
 
 (). ^^*e ha\e, tluriny; the sittinj^s of this Counnission, diawn attention to an article 
 apitearinur in tht> ('ofniilsf lately on this scry question. Samples were sent down from 
 lier«> to the Ontario department of .\i;;ricullnre, and they make these conclusions. 
 S.nnples were sent first, and IMdtessor .lames is rather an eminent scientist and has 
 .maly/ed thcs»> samples, and winds up with these c(U\elusions : 
 
 Mr. HlTlll'.'l'. Ihtes lu' refei" to lisli otVal or to souu' others, hecause tloi'-tish oil is a 
 se|>arate matter and is worked here successfully .' 
 
 .Mr. Wii.MOT. Oh, no. These were samples of tisli otl'al sent ilown from here. 
 Now, these are his eom-lusions : 
 
 " l''roin the consideration of the whole (pu'stio'n, I am t)f the opinion that the manu- 
 facture of the refuse into fertilizer is strom;ly to he ii-cMnnnended, liecaus(> ; 
 
 " 1st.. It will thus utili/i' a l>ye jiroduct that otherwise is a total loss. 
 
 " 'Jnd. It will.|irevent the waters from lieim; contaiuinated. 
 
 " ."Ird. Its proper manai;ement must tend towards a more hcdtlifni surrouiulini;. 
 
 " (th. Its return to the soils of the farm will partly otVset the waste of our cities 
 liy sewera<;f> carried to the lakes ;md rivers. 
 
 ""ith. If properly handled it will pay well. 
 
 " l"'roin the «j;reat imjiortance of this ipiesiion to the health of the community, the 
 welfare of the lishinu: industry and th«' process of ajjriculture, I haxc endeasour»'d to 
 rc]>ly at this leiiifth." 
 
 Mr. UirilKI'. Well, it depends u|ion localities a yreat de.tl ; we are li.mdicapped 
 with new soil, which is already mmv rich, .ind it docs not I'ctpiire fertili/ers. I would 
 like to hand in a document on this matt(>r. 
 
 /.'// Mr. Wi/niiit : 
 
 i). And then it is said to he wmth ahiait ^',\\ in Ontario? .\. Yes; and it would 
 cost us ( wo cents a pound for fi'eijfhl, and my opiidon is that it caiiiiot lie managed 
 without a loss, iind a very serious loss. 
 
 i). Well, I merely hiiny it to your attention to show that it has liecn tried and 
 samples sent and analy/cd, and the Professor states emphatically that for the health of 
 the community, etc., it minlit lie preferred if manufactured into oil, etc. .\. Well, that 
 may come in a future time, liut at present I do not think it could lie done. 
 
 i}. .\t the jiresent time the (io\ crnmcnt is heinu importuned as '>• '''•' ciVeclsof this 
 olVal in foulinj; the water, impariiiii; the health tif the community, etc.. and the (ioxcrn- 
 mcnt is naturally anxious to tind out the fads. .\. Well. I am sure wc will oidy lie too 
 li,i]ipy *o help if wt' oidy know how. I may mention that I ha\i> been up the ri\er on 
 the llaiiison Hiver to hilloet, etc., and the otl'ensiv eness raised liy otVal is lu-l to he 
 nicntioi.ed with the elVccts of dead lish, etc. 
 
 <i. ^'es ; well while this matter is hefore the Hoard it is nei-essary to yet all inform- 
 ation ;l<ut til otV-set tli.'i.t I may mention, Mr. Itilhet that the inunici|iality at heltasay 
 that it is only since cannerie>, ha\(> liet'ii estidilislu'd that they have felt elVects from sick- 
 ness, etc., Iirtiu'iht on liv tlie ipianlity of oll'al ;,'<iin;; into the water luid fouhnu it : they 
 lia\t> had .stunt' sixtt-en cases tif sickness ami some tleaths. I mention this t<i show you 
 I hat the (Jtivernment have the matter presentetl to them in tlitl'ereni ways. .\ntl while 
 siiine people say it has no elVect, wf liavf these people presentinj< petitions to the elVect 
 
 'i^ 
 
4 
 
 272 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 / 
 
 that this refuse has created dysentery and typhoid fever, and its lodgment there was 
 continually throwing up the microbes that produce the disease. These are their state- 
 ments, and when these statements are made it is the duty of the Government to in- 
 vestigate the matter. — A. In reference to that, Mr. Chairman, I would say that the 
 Delta Landing, during four or five years, has had a sort of boom ; there are four or five 
 times the people that were there, and there is no provisiftn made for drainage. We have 
 typhoid fever in- Victoria and Nanaimo and other places, and none of these people can 
 say that it has been caused by refuse from fish, etc., and I do not see how these people 
 can say it has been caused by offal from fish. We know very well that typhoid appears 
 in the mountains as well as everywhere else. 
 
 Q. Then y( u are of opinion that if it were to be thrown in mid-river you would 
 accede to that demand ? — A. I am (|uite willing to help to make arrangements or do 
 anything to do away with these complaints and troubles, if possible. 
 
 Q. Then the fishermen complain that it goes down the river and passes out at Gurry 
 Bush and gets into their nets, the heads and tails ? — A. Well, if canneries were not 
 there the fishermen would not be either ; a complaint of that kind should be put on one 
 side, because if canneries were not there the fishermen would not be wanted. I am 
 sure, and T speak not only for myself, but brother caiuierymen, that they will be only 
 too glad to help meet the wishes of the Government, but they have interests as well as 
 other people, and they feel they should be respected. 
 
 Q. Well, there is another difficulty ; there are statutory enactments in all other 
 parts of the Dominion against this practice, and if you are allowed to do it here otheis 
 will say, why should we not, too? — -A. Well, we contend here that the fish are quite 
 different to what they are in the east. 
 
 Q. But both make ofi'al, don't they 1 — A. Yes ; but the conditions are quite differ- 
 ent. I think the saw-dust is much worse. 
 
 Q. Well, that is one of the ([uestions we have also on our list? — A. But we have 
 experienced no diminution in the supply. 
 
 Q. Then you say that experiments with ofi'al in making oil, has not been success- 
 ful ? — A. No ; perhaps it might iiereafter, but of that I don't know. 
 
 Q. What was the oil you made used for ? — A. For lumbering and skidding purposes. 
 
 Q. Is much used for that purpose? — A. Yes ; but a good deal of dog-fish oil. We 
 get 35 cents for dog-fish, and 25 cents for offal oil. 
 
 Q. And from a sanitary point of view you think the deposition of offal non- 
 injurious? — A. Tiiat is njy opinion. 
 
 Q. Even if lodged akmg the siiore ?— A. I think it should be put in the current. 
 
 Q. And if along the shore it might get putrid? — A. Yes; if exposed to showers 
 and sun. We never see any of it here. We get logs frt»m the Fraser River and other 
 tilings. 
 
 Q. But a log would not form any quantity of offal ; ofial would not fioat so easily. 
 You think ofi'al then not injurious ; you think saw-dust quite injui-ious ?^^A. No ; I do 
 not say so. I have heard of that, but I know nothing about it. 
 
 Q. On the limitatiim of nets, what do you think of that questi<»n? — A. I think 
 the canneries which employ a large amount of capital, tliat they slu»uld have licenses of 
 their own ; they should have at least 25 boats to each cannery. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five to sustain their industry? — A. Yes; 20 were not enough and it 
 only forces us to go outside and adopt certain measures which I would rather not do. 
 If v.e were allowed 25 boats, if necessary, we could go outside, but I think 25 should 
 be given, and I would decidedly object to any one getting licenses but buna fide fisher- 
 men. 
 
 Q. Could you briefiy state why 25 would be sufiicient to run a cannery? — A. Yes; 
 because the capacity of a cannery is about 1,000 cases a day, and if 25 bouts catch an 
 average of 100 (»r 150 fish it would be about sufficient; they catch from 100 to 200, or 
 300 sometimes. 
 
 By Mr. Wifmnt : 
 
 Q. What is the average catch of a boat during the season, have you any idea? — 
 A. No ; not at all. I have no figures. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 273 
 
 ut we have 
 
 leen success- 
 
 Yes ; I do iiot 
 
 so K)iig as 
 
 be Ijought from 
 
 Q. 1,000 fish a dayj how many cases would that cover? — A. Well, I have no 
 evidence on that point from actual experience, but when we are getting over 100 to the 
 lioat we can run to the full capacity if we get twenty-five boats. 
 
 Q. How often a day would that boat run ? — A. Twice a day ; two shifts. I would 
 not care to make any statement of the practical part of it, because I have not had much 
 to do with it ; we get our telegraphic account so many fish to the boat, itc. 
 
 Q. When you say twenty -five boats would be sufficient, what would you consider 
 the average output from those twenty-five boats, about 15,000 cases? — A. Yes; with 
 the exception of Mr. Ewen's cannery the capacity is about similar for all. 
 
 Q. Well, T notice from the returns from the Fraser River during the past year 
 that the average from all the canneries would produce about 14,000 cases, taking them 
 all the way through in 1890; the returns for 1891 are not in yet. — A. The returns of 
 1891 will not average over 7,000, I don't think, not on the Fraser River. 
 
 Q. Were the boats more than twenty-five to each cannery? — A. We used to get 
 many fish out from Point Rcjberts. 
 
 Q. Yes ; but there was some arrangement made with regard to an increase in 
 Iwats ; did you get any additional ones ? — A. Well, no I don't think so ; ^Ir. Laidlaw 
 could tell you more about that. 
 
 Q. And they only produced 7,000 cases in 1891 ? — A. That is all. 
 
 Q. Are you of opinion that fishermen should all get licenses ? — A. 
 see how that can be very well prevented. 
 
 Q. Every fisherman and British subject should get a license ? — A. Yes : 
 he uses it himself. • 
 
 Q. And with twenty-five boats to eacii cannery, would many fish 
 fisheiinen at all ? — It would depend upon the season ; we have to make contracts befcjre 
 hand, and if the season is too gi-eat and we get too many fish, we have to lay off our 
 boats and take the outside fish. 
 
 Q. I might say to you that is one of the greatest complaints of the fishermen. 
 They say with the present disposition of boats, whitemen all told, are only able to get 
 about fifty licenses, and the consequence is they feel they are shut out of ordinary 
 traffic which they feel entitled to, and if canneries got twenty-five boats tliey would think 
 themselves shut out entirely from fishing operations. I merely mention it to show you. 
 — A. Of course they have the same rights to advocate their interests as we do. 
 
 By Mr. Armstronij : 
 
 Q. Do you think each cannery should have the same number of licenses? — A. Yes; 
 I think so, except Ewens', I think all the canneries are about the same. 
 
 Q. And that argument that has been put forth that it would be unfair to allow 
 boats to new canneries ; you forsake that, do you ? — A. Well, we felt a few years ago 
 that many of us would have to get out of it ; there has been no profit in the business 
 tliis year, and perhaps next year it will not be better, and many might have to give 
 it up. 
 
 Q. Arid then you see we have other complaints that persons come here under 
 inducements to fish, etc., and then cannot get licenses when they get here, and so with 
 twenty-five licenses to canners there would be further ground for complaint, for less out- 
 side fishermen would be employed ; I merely mention this to you. — A. Of course we 
 icfdi/e the position we would be in if we could not get licenses ; we would pi'obaV)ly be 
 iil)liged to shut up ; that is the experience on the Columbia River, where tiiey have had 
 to meet high demands of fishermen ; many canneries have had to shut up. 
 
 Q. Then you think every British sul>ject and every fisherman shoukl have 'a 
 license? — A. — ^Yes ; and I think Indians should have licenses as well as other people. 
 
 Mr. Armsthoxg. — Oh, yes ; if they provide themselves with a boat and net — cer- 
 taiidy they should get licenses. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wlhiiot : 
 Q. — You are connected with companies engaged on Nofthern rivers as well as on the 
 I'l-aser River — on those rivers, where engaged, do you use seine fishing as well fus 
 itrifting? — A. — Well, I could scarcely answer that question — I think we had to out at 
 sea —they don't fish in the river but they do outside. 
 
 10^- -18 
 
274 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Are you interested in Gardner Inlet ur Nimkish ?— A. No. 
 
 Q. Ai-e you in Lowe's Inlet — I believe seining is carried on there wholly ? — A. I 
 think so — I am not an <iwner there — I am but an af(ent. 
 
 Q. And seining is not allowed on Njuvs ? — A. No ; I think not. 
 
 i}. You have no practical experience of the result of Ashing with a seine and drift 
 net t — A. None. 
 
 Q. From what you know would you consider it advisable to allow seine fishing in 
 mouths of rivers — Fraser, Skeena, and Naas ? — A. I would rather not express an 
 opinion, because I .scarcely know the difference between the two nets. 
 
 Q. AVhat about the close season ? — A. Well, as far as I am concenied — I speak as 
 a canneryman — I think it would make but little difference from Jul}' 
 
 Q. I mean especially the weekly close .season? — A. Oh, the weekly season — I do 
 not think it makes any difference — I think it is all right — if made to 12 o'clock I think 
 the fishermen would go out anyway. 
 
 Q. Well, the same question comes in — you see statutory enactments in the eastern 
 
 provinces all provide for the Sunday being kept and if not kept, here . — A. It is a 
 
 differeiTt countiy, sir, altogether— the habits of fish are different and the inhabitants of 
 the country are different too. 
 
 Q. Well, you see, Mr. liithet, the Government has to make these laws and to meet 
 the demands from other provinces. — A. Well, I understand it simply as a matter of 
 expediency — the sailing .ship has to keep her sails up during Sunday and the fireman to 
 keep his tire going, itc. 
 
 Q. And you think it unjust if* not working on Sunday? — A. Yes; I think the 
 men would be longer idle and would not like it. 
 
 Q. Wa not the close time before on Sunday night ?— A. Yes; it was — but I do 
 not think it acted as well as now. 
 
 Q. Then there are people who think Sunday should be kept? — A. Well, that is a 
 matter of conscience. 1 think the present clo.se season is all right. 
 
 Q. And tlie annual close season? — A. AVell, we don't care about that as long as 
 we are alktwed to fish for sockeyes — I don't think it would matter. 
 
 Q. I think the previous gentleman spoke of a close season from 1st November to 
 1st ISIarch? I think he said with a 7 incii mesh from '2i)t\i September to 1st November 
 • — then wliy vary from 2.^)th September to 1st November? -A. That is the cohoe run — 
 we packed them for some time but did not find them profitable. 
 
 Q. Aiid fjom 1st March to 25th August you fish — you care nothing about a close 
 season for any fish after that ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Well, T think that would meet the public view, but you ask another close sea- 
 son ))etween 2")th September and 1st November? — A. Well, that is a run of small fish 
 — we canned these at one time but it did not pay. 
 
 Q. What are your views in regard to the hatchery ? — A. Well, my opinion is it 
 cannot be a disadvantage and it must be an advantage in keeping up the supply. 
 
 Q. What are your views in regard to fees on licenses — should all be alike ? (Mr. 
 Higgins arrived and took his seat at the Board) — A. I think so — on a river like the 
 Fraser Kiver where there is the benefit of a hatchery the fees are properly higher than 
 on other rivers where the Government go to no expense in maintaining a hatchery. 
 
 Q. Then you consider the hatchery has been of benefit to the extent of between 
 $0 and S20 ? — A. Well, I think our license fees were increased on that account. 
 
 Q. Anything else, sir? We have gone over last year — ^A. Well, I have read evidence 
 given at New Westminster and I draw the conclusion that very erroneous ideas of people 
 prevail there, and also on the part of the Commissioners as to profits derived from the 
 canning business. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I do not think there was any such evidence given us there? 
 
 Mr. Ahmstiion(;.— There was a statement that cannerymen could make ^75,000 by 
 putting up a cannery for $-^,000 but that was a mistake of the press. — A. I was just 
 going to say that this industry is one that requires the most careful attention and nurs- 
 ing. I think of late years 8 and 10 canneries have gone to the wall. The Alaska can- 
 neries have had great effect upon us — this last year I do not think the profits will be 
 ajiything at all — in fact, a perfect loss. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 275 
 
 le and drift 
 le fi.sliing in 
 
 jout a close 
 
 Mr. HifiCiiNs. — I would just like to read this extract from the Departmental 
 Report for 1890, hearing on this subject — (Fisheries Statements, 1890, p. 175.) Mr. 
 Thomas Mowat, tiien Inspector of Fisheries for this province, says : — 
 
 "The canners have reaped a rich harvest during the last four years, If their own 
 statements in this respect can be relied upon, each cannery made from 61o,000 to 
 5^75,000 per season ; still, with all these advantages, they do not appear satisfied, because 
 the regulations framed by the Department did not allow them to fish just as they 
 wished, regardless of future results." 
 
 Q. Had you seen that before, .Mr. Kithet, do you agree with it ? — A. Oh, yes ; I 
 have seen it often, and I saw it in evidence given before, and I wish to correct it, be- 
 cause 1 am in a position both as a canner and agent to know the truth in that regard, 
 and T am safe in saying too that you have had no man before you who could say that 
 any employee never got his pay — if any loss it has been borne by the owners. 
 
 Q. Are fish paid for- when? — A. At the end of the season. I may say tliat I have 
 often advanced money to pivy off the man's debts. 
 
 ^Ir. Akmsthonc. — Yes, I must say Chinamen and others always get their money. 
 
 Mr. RiTiiET. — There is another (juestion T would wish to speak of namely, Chinese 
 labour — if we had not Chinamen here we could not carry on business at all -it is im- 
 possible to get white labour for the short time we require them, and the work besides is 
 such that it does not require able bodied men to do it — Chinamen do it very well and 
 women and boys, and I do not see how the canners should be blamed for employing 
 Chinese labour. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — The statement made to us is that though 100 or more are employed 
 in a cannery only 8 or 10 of them would be Whites and the rest Indians and Chinamen. 
 — A. Yes, that is quite right. I may say we have tried to do with boys and I know 
 that 3Ir. Spencer went to great trouble one year to employ white labour but he found 
 it could not be carried out and had to give it up. 
 
 Q. Is not all the labour arrangements done through one Boss Chinaman 1 — A. Yes, 
 of late years. 
 
 Q. AVhat price is paid the Chinaman boss per case? — A. About 35 cents, I think it 
 is — but the Chinese labour is but a small matter — we have the tins and putting them up, 
 etc., I think 35 cents is about the price, we have to pay a little more up nortli. 
 
 Q. Is there anything else you would wish to stiite ? — A. No, I think that is about 
 all. 
 
 Mr. ARMSTRON(i. — Thank you, sir — we are much obliged to you. 
 
 The following copy of a memorandum on the canning and fishing industries was 
 handed in by Mr. Rithet at the conclusion of his evidence. 
 
 To THE MkMUEHS of THE CaNNEHS' ASSOCIATION. 
 
 Gentlemen, — Your Connnittee to whom was referred at the meeting of your As- 
 sociation, held or the 13th inst., the Order in Council respecting the disposal of fish uftal, 
 approved 7th November, 1890, and also the Order of same date, prohibiting the use of 
 seines for the purpose of catching salmon, and existing regulations generally, beg to 
 report thereon as follows : — 
 
 That before taking up the special subjects referred to in the Order in Council, your 
 Committee wish to call attention to some of the other existing regulations, which, in the 
 opinion of your Committee, are framed in such a manner as to seriously jeopai-di.se the 
 successful continuance of the business of salmon canning in this province — a business 
 which is already among the most important, and one which, under judicious treatment by 
 the Government, should continue to hold a prominent place in its material development, 
 alike profitable to those who have embarked their capital, the Province and the Dominion. 
 
 Limit of Licenses, Fraser River. 
 
 The most prominent among the regulations referred to, is the constructifjn placed by 
 the Hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, upon the recommendations of the canners 
 lOtf— I8i 
 
276 
 
 MARINE AND FI8HERIKS. 
 
 i' 
 
 M' 
 
 through the Board of Trade, as to restricting the num)>er of tishing lioenses on the Fraser 
 River, which, in the opinion of your Committee, is not only unjust to those who through 
 many difficulties, and under great disadvantages, have for many years, during the early 
 history of the industry, followed the business ; but also to those who have more recently 
 invested their capital therein, inasmuch as the number of bt>ats allowed each existing 
 cannery has been reduced to provide licenses for newly established canneries. 
 
 That, in the opinion of your Committee, the attention of the Hon. the Minister 
 should be specially drawn to the serious phase of the (juestion of limiting the number of 
 licenses for canneries upon the basis above referred to, which is contrary to the intention 
 of your Association, and the Board of Trade, in recommending that licenses on the Fraser 
 River should be limited in number. If the present system is to be continued, many, if 
 not all the existing canneries will have so few boats that they will be unable to continue 
 their business with profit. It was never intended that the licenses allowetl existing can- 
 neries, which had already invested large capital in the business, were to be withdrawn 
 from them and given to new canneries, and we feel certain that, on the Minister's atten- 
 tion being called to this great injustice he will at once admit it and provide a remedy. 
 Your Committee advise that this Association recommend that the Hun. the Minister be 
 requested to lix a mininmm numV)er of boats to which each cannery can be reduced, and 
 ask that this be not less than twenty-tive (25) for existing canneries. 
 
 The number of licenses allotted to the fishermen, for the fresh fish market and 
 freezing establishments is out of proportion, and in excess of actual requirements for 
 the purposes for which they are allotted, and unless the fish taken by them can be sold to 
 the canneries, there would be no market for them. Freezing establishments, at present 
 allowed ten licenses each, do not use for their own purposes more than the catch of three 
 or four boats during the sockeye run, and the excess is sokl to the canneries, thus showing 
 that while canners do n(jt get as many licenses as are necessary for their business, more 
 licenses are allotted to outside fishermen and freezing establishments which are used 
 simply for speculative purposes. It must he admitted that canners, who have thousands 
 of dollars at stake, and give employment to 300 or 400 people in each cannery during 
 the fishing season, are not fairly treated when they are made to pay more for theii- 
 licenses than the individual fishermen, who are allowed to dispose of their fish for the 
 same pui'pose, and whose entire outfit does not exceed §100 to .$300. 
 
 Seines. 
 
 4' 
 
 Your Committee advise that the Hon. the Minister be recommended to exempt all 
 localities from the order prohibiting the use of seines, where fishing can be only prose- 
 cuted by means of seines. 
 
 The localities where sei)ies are at present in use ai'e the following, viz. : 
 
 Alei-t Bay, Smith's Inlet, Lou'e Inlet, 
 
 and in which localities seines have always been used, without (so far as experience has 
 shown) injury to the supply, as can l)e readily verified by the quantities packed during 
 the last few years, which compare favourably with the quantity packed during the first 
 years of packing canned salmon. 
 
 There are many other bays and inlets in which fishing can l)e done only Vjy means 
 of seines, and which should also be exempted frf)m the restriction, upon it being shown 
 to the fishery inspector that the fish supply would not be injured thereby. 
 
 License Fees. ' 
 
 Your Committee are of the opinion that it would be more just if a uniform license 
 fee on the Fraser River of ."?20 per boat per year was charged to all who were allowed 
 to fish, whether for the purpose of canning, or for sale as fresh salmon, instead of the 
 present mode of discriminating against cannei's. Your Committee reconnnend that no 
 change should be made in the license fee charged to northern canneries. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 277 
 
 Chtse Time. 
 
 It is str«tn;ily recoiiimended that no change he made in the regulation of last year 
 regarding this, viz. : from 6 a. m. Saturday to 6 p. m. Sunday. 
 
 Siihnoii Ojial. 
 
 Youi- Conmiittee has very carefully considered tl)e report from the Hon. the Minis- 
 ter of Marine and Fisheries of the 2.")th October, 1890, and also an extract from a 
 report by S. Wilmot, Esq., upon which is based the order of the Hon. tlie Privy Council 
 of the 7th of November, 1890, to the etfect tliat the piinision in the Fisheiies Act 
 relating to the disposal of fish offal sliall be enforced in future. 
 
 It is therein stated that an enquiry made by direction of the Hon. the Minister of 
 Marine and Fislieries into tiie manner in which tisliing in tiie Fraser River was prose- 
 cuted, elicited the facts that " an enonnous quantity of valuable tish food whicii by 
 economical measures could be utilized, was wasted by tlie prevalent and improvident 
 practice of using for canning purposes only a certain portion of the sahnon caught 
 and throwing the remainder away," and in support of which Mr. Wilmot's report is 
 appended. 
 
 The Conmiittee cannot but express sui'prise at this statement. As a matter of 
 fact, all the portions of salmon, with the exception of the heads, tails, entrails and 
 ort'al, are preserved in cans, and no portions valuable as food, which can be economically 
 u.sed, are wasted. The canners are anxious and interested to pi'epare for market as 
 much of the fish as possible; but in doing so, special care must be observed in regai'd 
 to maintaining the highest quality, in order to compete with the Columbia River and 
 other American salmon-packing localities on this coast. 
 
 For many years after the commencement of the industry in British Columbia, the 
 (juality of <)ur product was considered by the English buyers, who are the principal 
 customers, inferior to that of our neighbours shipped from this coast, but by the exercise 
 of extreme care ill the careful selection and packing of the fish, the canners have the 
 satisfaction of knowing that it now compares favourably with any of the salmon packed 
 on this coast. 
 
 We are not prepared to dispute, nor do we doubt that it is quite possible — and 
 probable — that in some countries, the heads, tails, entrails, and offal, might be utilized 
 for various purposes, such as fertilizers, or oil might be extracted therefrom, but in this 
 new country, where labour is ditlicult to obtain, and veiy exj)ensive, such enterpiises 
 cannot yet be carried on with profit. There is no local demand for fertilizers, our lands 
 being only recently cultivated, and so rich that fertilizers would prove detrimental, l)y 
 encouraging a growth which is already considered too rank. Several attempts have 
 Ijeen made in this province to utilize fish ort'al for making manures and oil for export, 
 and although the needful cj.pital and experience have been supplied, they have invari- 
 ably i-esulted in failure because the pi'ices obtainable left a serious loss, and the business 
 had to be aliandoned. 
 
 The committee, therefore, repeat that no portions of the fish whicli can be profital)ly 
 used fiie wasted, and regret to find that Mr. Wilmot should commit himself to such a 
 sweeping statement about this, as that contained in his report to the lion, the minister, 
 without having had an opportunity of forming a more correct opinion than could be 
 formed during his short and hurried visit last year. 
 
 With reference to the injurious results which must ensue to the salmon industry 
 from a continuance of the throwing of ortal into the river, the conmiittee observe : — 
 
 That the pi-actice of throwing the ort'al into the river has been followed since the 
 connnencement of salmon preserving in the province — moi'e than 1.") years ago — and no 
 injurious eftects upon the supply of fish can be observed. The supply of salmon, if any- 
 thing (see orticial returns), has been more abundant during the last two years than in 
 previous years, and the reports from the interior spawning grounds, tend to confirm 
 the assertion that fish are as plentiful as e\er. 
 
 If nifty also be stated as a fact, that myriads of sca\enger fish frequent the rivers 
 in which salmon fishing is prosecuted, and are observed at each cannery greedily 
 

 N 
 
 278 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 devouring the offal (with the exception of the heads and tails) and in a few lioin-s after 
 offal is deposited in the water, scarcely any trace of it can be detected, and it is further 
 claimed by fishermen and others acquainted with the habits of salmon of the Pacific- 
 waters, that a very large proportion of the salmon which pass up the rivers and reach 
 the spawning grounds, do not return to the sea, and thus the whole fish, instead of the 
 waste parts, which are not .utilized for canning, become offal, and a greater cause of 
 pollution of the water than the practice complained of. 
 
 After careful consideration, it is the opinion of the committee that the suspension 
 during last year of the provision of the law relating to the disposal of fish offal, made 
 on the strength of representations of the provincial seci-etary and the canners, was 
 nothing more thun accotxling justice to one of the most important industries in the 
 province, and since then no good grounds have been shown why the suspension should 
 not be continued and if the fjuestion were placed before the public for endorsement, our 
 opinion is, suspension of the restriction would be approved of. 
 
 The Hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries states that the Act " provides an 
 inexpensive and comparatively easy mode of compliance wich this requirement of the 
 law, by providing that such t>ffal may be buried ashore beyond high water mark, or 
 dropped into perforated boxes under the stage hetuls or wharves in such manner as to 
 prevent them from being washed into the stream." 
 
 The Committee observe in i-egard to this, that the first mode is impracticable, and 
 were the circumstances known, such a statement would not have been made, for the 
 reason that, in regard to the Fraser River, the lands along the tidal waters — and within 
 miles of the canneries, are belctw the level of high water mark, and in order to exclude 
 water it is necessary to resort lo dyking ; and in regard to the northern rivers, the 
 banks are rocky, and few places ^ould be found where excavations or pits could be made 
 at reasonable cost. 
 
 As to perforated boxes — the plan, which was tried two years ago, has many 
 objections, principally on sanitary grounds, as after a time the deposit becomes so vast 
 that it is not fully covered by water, and the decomposing of so much matter becomes so 
 offensive and unwholesome, that dwellings in the vicinity are not habitable. 
 
 The Committee cannf)t do otherwise than conclude that the Hon. the Minister of 
 Marine and Fisheries, will, upon proper representations being made, order that the 
 regulations above referred to, shall not l)e enforced, and are disposed to hope that, in 
 imposing restrictions upon this industry, care will be taken not to make them of such 
 a nature as to cause the industry to be hampered to such an extent as would place those 
 engaged in the business in the waters of this province at a disadvantage in competing 
 with canneries following the same business on this coast in the rivers and waters of the 
 Unitefl States, where the greatest freedom from all regulations of a restrictive nature 
 is allowed. 
 
 The Committee infer from the arguments of the Hon. the Minister of Marine and 
 Fisheries, and the Superintendent, that they assume that the habits of the salmon of 
 these waters are similar to those of the salmon of the Atlantic rivers, and draw wrong 
 conclusions in consequence. 
 
 It is, however, claimed by all those who have considored the matter on this coast, 
 that the habits are entirely different, as the rivei"s which they frequent are longer, 
 greater in volume of water, and lower in temperature, all important infiuences, we 
 respectfully submit, on* the habits of the salmon. 
 
 From the imperfect knowledge shown by the statements now under consideration, 
 your Committee think that the Department should appoint a board of resident com- 
 missioners who would study the habits of the salmon frequenting the rivers of this coast, 
 and ac(|uire accurate and reliable information for the guidance of the Department, in 
 order that no unnecessary or oppressive regulations may be imposed, while due care may 
 be taken to prevent the exhaustion of the supply of salmon. 
 
 Ad'hnihun. 
 
 The Committee append an article from the "Oregonian," dated 1st Fel»ruary, 
 headed "Salmon Legislation," which was brought under their notice after they had 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERr COMMISSION. 
 
 8T9 
 
 Id he made 
 
 lences, we 
 
 completed the report now .submitted. Tn it are several points of interest and to which 
 the attention of the Hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should Vje directed. 
 
 Regarding the pollution of rivers, reference is made to the jjractice of depositing 
 saw-dust, which is condemned, and concerning which legislation is reconuneiuletl, l>ut 
 action in regard to Finti Offal ivhirh is ilfponiti'd iu (/w Cohniifiin Ifivft; is not suggest fid. 
 
 The nationality of fishermen is another important matt^-r, to which the attention of 
 the Hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should he particularly directed. 
 
 Injperfect knowledge of the haVjits of salmon of this coast (to which allusion is ma«le 
 in the accompanying report) apparently is not peculiar to this province, as may he gath- 
 ered from a perusal of the encjuiry reported in the extract attached. The most diverse 
 opinions are expres.sed hy tish experts, as to the hahits of salmon, so much sf>, that the 
 joint committee from the Oregon and Washington Legislatures decided that the United 
 States Fish Commissioner should he a.>^ed to acquire accurate informatitm regarding the 
 hahits of salmon in the Colundtia River, and which supports the recommendation of your 
 committee in regard to the appointment of a lioard of commissioners in this province for 
 the same purp<.)se. 
 
 In conclusion, the recommendations of your committee in the foregoing, stated 
 brierty, are as follows : — 
 
 Liceiisen. 
 
 That on the Fraser River, not less than twenty-five l)oats shall be allotted to each 
 cannery now in operation ; that the fees on the Fraser River shall be uniform, viz. : i^'20 for 
 each boat engaged in fishing, without reference; *o the disposal of salmon ; and that for 
 northern localities, the fees shall he as heretofore, viz. : $o for each boat. Close time to 
 be continued from G a.m. Saturday to G p.m. Sunday. 
 
 Seines. 
 
 That the restrictions as to the use of seines shall not be universal, certain waters to 
 be exempted. 
 
 Qfaf. 
 
 That the suspension of regulation as to the disposal of oflal shall be continued. 
 
 Commitsiini. 
 
 That a hoard of fishery connnissioners, resident in the province, shall be appointed 
 by the Department of ^Marine and Fisheries. 
 All of which is respectfully submitted. 
 
 R. P. RITHET, 
 M. T. JOHNSTON, 
 
 For Selves and Committee. 
 YiCTOKiA, 4th February, 1S91. 
 
 SAOrON LEGISLATION. 
 
 (Extract from Portland "Orkgonian.") 
 
 Fnrther Textltnony h'/ove tlie Jnint Comnntlfe. I'rofectum to Small Fish. Piscatorial 
 E.fperts Disagrei', on the (Question of Forhiddiny the Capture of Salmon Under 
 Eight Pounds in Weight. 
 
 During the forenoon session of the Joint Connnittee on Fisheries at the Portland 
 hotel yesterday, tjuite a number of interesting and instructive facts were learned regarding 
 the traits and mwle of living of the Columbia River salmon, particularly the chinook, 
 steelhead and blueback species. 
 
 State Senator Luce acted as chairman, and Senator Fulton served in the capacity 
 of examiner. 
 
7 
 
 S80 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIBS. 
 
 P 
 
 L. T. IJarin, im export on salmon, was fii-st culled uimui, and stated that his expei-ience 
 covered a jjcriod of thirty years. 
 
 Sot a I'vofei'tionisf. 
 
 "T am not particularly opposed to catchiny the small salmon,' he said, " even 
 thouffh they may he chinook, for the reason that the smaller species are almost invari- 
 ably males and although not full grown, pei'form the functions of grown salmon, and die 
 in the vicinity of the spawning grounds. 
 
 " Tn my opinion the scarcity of females is due to the fact that the latter do not 
 mature so rapidly as males, and die beff»re growing to any great size. Some two years 
 ago, T offered a reward of $20 for every female of the smaller species, and only found <»ne 
 weighing about nine and one-half jmunds. I Hrmly believe that these small salmon are 
 prematurely matured, and the difference in colftr can only be accounted for by simply 
 pointing to the trimt, whose colour changes according to its year.s. The chinook salmon 
 do not return to the sea after spawinng unless the latter pi'ocess occur very close to salt 
 ■water. After making their way up the river for hundi'eds of miles without food it is 
 imjuissible for them to return, and in consequence they die off by thousands. The small 
 ones come back dead the same as the large, and it is for this reason that I dt»not favour 
 forbidding the cajtture of .salmon under eight pounds. Lmrs sIidiiIiIIx' j><iMi'd jiri'vi-ntinij 
 till' iltinqyliKj of fKitrt/nsf in our sfrftims mid nhto th<' ii)<)' i>f rucks. The Hshery laws of 
 Oregon and Washington should be similar, and the season should not commence until 
 April 10th or loth." 
 
 C oncer niny Fish Xctn, 
 
 J. W. Cook informed the Connnittee that he ha*l had a great deal of practical expe- 
 rience in catching and handling Columbia liiver salmon of all varieties. 
 
 " Meshes not less than eight and one-half inches should be permitted by law," said 
 jNIr. Cook, "and although many fishermen may not agree with me on this jwint, I am 
 sure they would catch more fish in weight and nundjers than a smaller mesh. The Legis- 
 lature should j)ass an appi'opriation of 820,000 for the first year and !?10,000 for ten 
 years thereafter, for the purpose of establishing hatcheries. The jji'oduct at present is 
 about 2,500,000, and with proper hatcheries on both sides of the river this supply could 
 be greatly increased, to the benefit of all. In my opinion salmon do return to sea, but 
 in the deeper channels of the river. To be sure, thousands get so far up stream that 
 they die ))efore reaching the sea, but they doubtless attempt the return trip. There 
 certainly slujuld be a clo.sed season, and net fishing should be prohibited in Clackamas 
 Kiver."" 
 
 Do sidtnon return seaward 1 
 
 Alexandei' X. Sutton, secretary of the Fishermen's Union at Astoria, related briefly 
 his observations made during his career as a professional fisherman. 
 
 "There should be a law," said he, "protecting the young salmon. There are cer- 
 tainly more males hatched than females, and it is on this account we find so few of the 
 latter. The small fish should be left to return, and according to the very highest 
 authoi'ities they undoubtedly do return twice in four years. The salmon will live 
 ordinarily seven year.s, and the average weight at four years is about twenty-foui- 
 pounds. Now the heavier salmon must certainly be older, and hence my theory of 
 their retui-n from the spawning ground to the sea. Many die from exhaustion in con- 
 sequence of 600 or 700 miles travel, but a large nundser of them live in holes and pools 
 until the first rains have come. 
 
 " The small salmon should be protected. They certainly can do no harm by being 
 allowed to remain in the stream, and if caught are of little or no value to the state. The 
 rivers are lieing cleaned out to an alarming extent of late, and especially since the intro- 
 duction of wheels. They are placed in the vicinity of the spawning grounds and very 
 few fish escape them. The law in Washington and Oregon should be the same in this 
 matter, for the reason that if one state only imposes a penalty for catching small fish, 
 the fishermen will, from business motives, seek the opposite side. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 281 
 
 experience 
 
 (lid, " even 
 lost inviiri- 
 ttn, unci (lie 
 
 ttei' (]<» not 
 ( two years 
 r found one 
 sulinon are 
 
 by simply 
 r)ok salmon 
 lose to salt 
 t food it is 
 
 The small 
 not favour 
 /n't'i'fnfitii/ 
 3ry laws of 
 leiice until 
 
 •tical expe- 
 
 law," said 
 )oint, 1 am 
 The Legis- 
 )00 for ten 
 present is 
 pply could 
 to sea, but 
 ii'eam that 
 p. There 
 "^lackamas 
 
 ted l)riefly 
 
 •e are cer- 
 
 'ew of the 
 
 y highest 
 
 will live 
 
 enty-foui- 
 
 theory of 
 
 )n in con- 
 
 and pools 
 
 by being 
 late. The 
 the inti"o- 
 and very 
 le in this 
 mall tish, 
 
 " I am opposed to traps for a great many reasons, but principally because T consider 
 tlieni dangerous to life ancl property." 
 
 Afdriionn Si'ssion. 
 
 Upon the suggestion of the majority of the eonnnittee, and for the purpose of econ- 
 omising time, the afternoon sessictn was (lev(»ted strictly to the more important points on 
 whicli information was re»|uired. Those who testified, therefore, were limited to a mere 
 recital of such as cai.ie directly under their notice. 
 
 Frank M. Warven stated that during all of his eleven years' experience on the 
 Columbia River, h" had never seen or heard of a chinook salmon, i»r those of the so-ualled 
 hybrid species, returning to the sea after spawning. They iiivarial)Iy lingered in the 
 vicinity of the headwaters until they died. 
 
 "I was informed by the Japanese minister during his recent visit to this country." 
 .said Mr. Wari'en, "that in all the large rivers in Japan the salmon are known to ascend 
 and die shortly after .spawning, and it is the same here, lly preventing the catching of 
 .^almon under eight pounds in weight tiie legislatui'es of Oregon and Washington would 
 timply render valueless 8250,000 worth of projierty for the following reason : — 
 
 "The yearly gains from the smaller tish— Idueback and steelhead — amount to 
 Sf<0,000 for the Ca.scades : 8-")0,000 for the Dalles, and S7."),000 for the Lower Cascades. 
 l»v allowing them to go up the river we accomplish nothing, as they are all males, and 
 die without attempting to leturn. I believe in allowing men to ti.sh during the open 
 season, without regard to the size or weight of anything they may catch.' 
 
 Xii /idi'in to laptiii'i- t/it'iii. 
 
 B. A. Seabury did not think it would be any harm to capture the small Ksh, simply 
 because he did not consider them chinook. They were lighter in colour, of a different 
 shape, and on the whole were quite a diH'erent species. He believed they returned to 
 the sea after spawning, although he had never caught very many in the Columbia on 
 the down trip. 
 
 James Williams thought that a certain percentage of the salmon returned to the 
 ocean. He had freijuently seen and caught them drifting down the Columbia, l)ut more 
 especially in Ala.->ivan rivers. He admitted that thousands of tliem die, but he attributed 
 tills to old age, disea.se and encounters with other varieties of tish. Mr. Williams was 
 particularly displeased with the immense quantities of sawdust deposited in the rivers. 
 
 Opinion of Fixh Continisxiotx'rs. 
 
 Fish Connnissioners F. C. Heed, of Oregon, and James Crawford, of Washington, 
 entertained similar views on the tish (iuesti<jn. They had never seen a live chinook 
 returning, and had never discovered a female among all the small salmon coming under 
 their notice. 
 
 Mr. Reed explained that at present there was a law in Oi-egon prohibiting the 
 dumping of sawdust below the Willamette falls or Columbia Cascades, V)ut he had never 
 been able to enforce it. Both conmiissioners strongly advocated appropriations from 
 both legislatures for the purpose of establishing hatcheries capable of turning out 
 20,000,000 annually. They also advocated concurrent jurisdiction on tlie Columbia, 
 iuul recommended that the open sea.son in both states be made the same. 
 
 After examining a model of the tish traps now in use, the eonnnittee went into 
 executive session for the purpo.se of agreeing to a set of laws, acceptable to both states. 
 
 Hesidt of the Inquinj. 
 
 After considering all the testimony, the corimittee from ^h" Oregon legislature 
 decided to recommend the passage of laws substantially the sami. i. those at present in 
 force in Washington with a few minor changes. The joint eonnnittee will reconnnend 
 that the owners of fish nets, or pound traps, be required to lift the tunnels and close 
 the entrance to hearts, during the weekly close time, and the passage of a law prohibit- 
 ing the dumping of sawdust in the Columbia or its tributaries at any time or at any 
 
282 
 
 MARINE AND FI8IIEBIES. 
 
 place. There will also h«' reeomiiiended the )wi.s8agu of a law prohihitiiig any one from 
 Kshing in the waters of either state, unless he lie a eiti/en (»f the I'nited States and a 
 resident of the state in whifh he intends ongaginj,' in husiness, for at least six months. 
 Also prohibitin^ the catching of sturj^eon during the months ()f .Fanuary, February ami 
 March. Congress will also be memorialized to establish a hatchery either on the Colum- 
 bia or cue of its tributaries— the Hunkie Hiver preferred. 
 
 The United States fish connnissioner will be asked to actjuire accurate information 
 regarding the habits of the salmon in the Colundiia. Persons engaged in the fishing 
 industry in Orejjon and Wushington are anxious to determine whether or not the 
 salmon do really return t«> salt water, and if so, d<i they return a second time to the 
 rivers. These facts must first be determined befoi-e legislation can be passed protecting 
 what is generally supposed to be yi»ung chinook. 
 
 ALEXANDER JAMES McLELLAN, a native of Prince Edward Island, in British 
 Columbia for sixteen years, a resident of Victoria, B.C., a salmon cannery proprietor, 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 liij Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. Well now, Mr. McLellan, are you desirous of giving any statement in regard to 
 the matter before us, the fisheries of the province, individual river.s, or anything of that 
 kind ? — A. Well, personally T am mit ac(|uainted with any rivers except the Naa.s, 
 which is very different, on account of location, etc., from all other rivers. I may say I 
 have never asked the Government ff»r anything or heard of any complaint going to the 
 (Jovernment concerning the fisheries of the Naas River ; that is the most nttrthern river. 
 
 Q. How far up f rf)m here ? — A. Alxmt 640 miles, I think. 
 
 Q. How large a river is it at the mouth, or the lowest where the limit of fi.shing 
 shall be ? — A. Oh, only about a quarter of a mile wide where the limit is. 
 
 Q. How far does the tide go above that 1 — A. About three mile- 
 
 Q. What description of fishing is carried on there ? — ^A. All gil' ets, drifting. 
 
 Q. And you drift how far. out in the sea? — A. About 12 miles. 
 
 Q. What number of canneries have you there? — A. Three canneries; I have had 
 43 licenses every year. 
 
 Q. How many has the adjoining cannery to you, the Cascade ? — A. I don't know 
 how many. 
 
 Q. \)o you know how many the British Columbia cannery has ? — A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. You don't know, then, the gross number of boats on the river ? — A. I suppose 
 about 80 or 90, as near as I can recollect. 
 
 By Mr. A rmstrony : 
 
 Q. Is the capacity of other canneries al)out the same as yours ? — A. No ; they are 
 not the same. I built the first cannery there, and I built a large one, and went in for 
 1 2,000 cases. Then the river is not like this ; the fish are iuore regular. We never get 
 more than fifty to the boat at any time ; but they a.-e more regular. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wih lot : 
 
 Q. Then would t 
 
 that ; they have aboi 
 
 Q. Are there lai 
 
 Q. How far fron 
 
 y. And how far 
 
 river to you ? — A. Th 
 
 of the river, and I th 
 
 -A. Oh, m'»re than 
 
 e other two canneries be equal to yciir one ?- 
 30 boats apiece ; I don't know exactly. 
 I up at the head of that river ? — A. Yes ; a long way up. 
 he river boundary? — A. About 35 miles, I think, 
 it from the British Columbia cannery across the mouth of the 
 British Columbia cannery is about six miles up from the mouth 
 k the mouth of the river proper about two miles wide. 
 Q. Then the fishing is carried on along from the limit laid down away down about 
 12 miles?— A. About 12 miles. ' , 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Aruistromj : 
 Q. Into the ocean ? — A. Oh, no ; from the limit down. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISIIERr COMMISSION. 
 
 lown about 
 
 % Mr. IVihtinf : 
 
 Q. Can yuu gel iiH many licciiseH an you want/ — A. I don't know; I wus nevor 
 rt'fujted. I just aNked for 43 IxiatH, ami if I could not j(«t tli«'iii I would have to turn 
 till! k«-y in my caiuuM'v ; that would Ih> all. 
 
 ii. It takes the whole 4H to supply your wants? — A. Yes, sir ; thare are no other 
 people on the river wanting licenses and the Indians cannot atl'ord to buy a net and it 
 lasts only the one year and they caiuiot atford to buy it, and conK(«(|uently wo have* to 
 get nets and licenses for them ; then the Indians refused to pay any license fee and they 
 came to me and were going to have a great council, and to stop trouble I paid the license 
 fees out of my own pocket. 
 
 Q. Do you enter the licenses in your own name or in the namen 'f Indians? — A. 
 Well, you see they would not give the licenses to Indians ; the licen.ses are entere«l in 
 my own name. 
 
 y. And do Indians get licenses beyond that t — A. No ; none. 
 
 Q. And is the same system pursued by other caiuieries there? — A. The same sys- 
 tem ; I think so ; all get licenses in their own name. 
 
 Q. Then you have a privilege over other rivers where they only get 1*0 licenses ? — 
 A. Well, it might be possible ; but there are so nuiny fishermen on the Fraser River they 
 can easily get up to 50 or 60 Iwats, but we cannot on the Naas ; there are no white peo- 
 ple there. 
 
 Q. How could they get 50 or 60 1 — A. Well, if the canneries get 20 license.s, an<l 
 then when there are many other licenses they g<i to the canneries and so the canneries 
 have the privilege of buying many more than 25 ; on the Naas we have not. There is 
 no population there ; nothing but a few Indians. 
 
 -A. Indians ; and if I employ whitemen 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Annittrony : 
 
 Q. And who do you employ as fishermen ?- 
 I have to take theni from here. 
 
 Jiy Mr. JIi(/</in.t : 
 
 Q. Is there any settlement on the river ? — A. No ; there nuiy be one or two ; there 
 is no agricultural land, and no people except Indians and missionaries. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wi/inot : 
 
 Q. Then as to the Sunday close season, is it kept up there? — A. It is kept obedi- 
 ently by the Indians. 
 
 Q. And the whitemen ? — A. Well, as far as I am concerned I keep the Sunday. I 
 close my store on Saturday night and it is not open until Monday morning, but there is 
 one privilege I would a.«k of the Commissioners. They extended the time from six on 
 Saturday evening until six Monday morning — now we fish only on tides — we have six 
 and a half hours on and six and a half ofi" and I do not s(^e why the fishery guardian 
 who comes up there could not allow us to fish the tide out on Saturday night and then 
 <tn Monday morning the tide inight not be fit for fishing on until late in the day, and 
 we have many men on wages and it means a great loss to us. 
 
 Q. Well, but the close season is from 6 a.m. Saturday to 6 a.m. Sunday. The 
 weekly close seasen is the same throughout ail the province. ^Ir. ^IcNab can you give 
 us any information? 
 
 Mr. McNab. — Yes ; there is only tine close season throughout the province, but 
 there have been several changes. It wk'* changed last from 6 o'clock Saturday night to 
 6 o'clock Monday morning to 6 o'clock Saturday morning to 6 o'clock Sunday evening. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I think Mr. INIcNab is right. I think the old close season did so 
 read, but the canners made application to have it changed to 6 o'clock Sunday night. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. jU'mstrong : 
 
 Q. Well, would the present close seasrtn suit you ? — A. Well, I would prefer if it 
 was made in a way moveable on account of the titles. 
 
284 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 JUj Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Do the Tndians work on Sunday ? — A. No ; tliey do not, and I do not work 
 on Sunday myself — we don't want them to work, they go to church and are very good 
 and obedient people. 
 
 Q. Then even if the close season stands as at present — from (5 a.m. Saturday to 6 
 p.m. Sunday night, the Indians would not woi-k ? — A. No ; we do not want them to, hut 
 we would like to commence at 3 o'clock Monday morning if the tide was favourable. I 
 want to leave thirty-six hours clear. You see we fish at low water slack and if it don't 
 come right on Saturday the Indians will knock oft' at ten o'clock on Saturday morning 
 and then perhaps it will not be right until ten or eleven o'cl( ck on Monday morning 
 and so all that time is lost. A moveable time would suit us better. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do you fish when the tide is going out or coming in ? — -A. Well, we fish both 
 going out and coming in — we fish six and a half hours and the'" knock off", I want 
 U) say that the lower camp, when the tide starts in, will catci. 150 or 200 fisli 
 to the boat, and then at the upper camp some hours after, they will catch 150 again to 
 the boat and so on, showing that the fi.sh are making a steady progress up the river ; 
 and there is no danger of hurting the fish by the nets as we can only fish at one time 
 for six and a half houi-s. 
 
 Q. You use ordinary drift nets ? How many meshes deep do you use?— A. About 
 thirty. 
 
 Q. Wou' the leads go to the bottom ? — A. They might up river at low water but 
 not at the mouth of the river. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And then when the " lead " lines are on the bottom that would be the same as 
 a seine would it not ? — ^A. Well, it might be — that would only be up the river at low 
 watei'. 
 
 Q. How wide would it be at that point ? — A. About three-fourths of a mile. 
 
 Q. Do Indians fish there at all ? — A. Not for the canneries, but they do for their 
 own use, 
 
 Q. Do sockeyes, humpbacks and cohoes frequent that river ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But you only use sockeyes 1 — A. I put up some cohoes too, and some spring 
 salmon. 
 
 Q. Are they white and red 1 — A. Yes 
 
 Q. What proportion ? — A. About one in six generally. 
 
 Q. What do you do with the white ones ? — A. Give them to the Indians generally 
 —I salted some one year and sent to Montreal but they didn't pay for the freight. 
 
 Q. What do you think as regards the (luality? — A. I think they are just as good 
 — just as rich and good in every way, but they will not suit the fastidious taste of the 
 public. 
 
 Q. When do they frequent that river? — A. About 1st June. 
 
 Q. Do you know of them going up in September? — -A. I have been informed there 
 was such a thing, but I do not know. 
 
 Q. Yet for canning purposes they are no use? -A 
 as good for food. 
 
 Q. And you throw them away ? — A. No 
 salt them. 
 
 Q. What is the average size of spring salmon ? — A. About twenty pounds — some 
 times they go to fifty, seventy or eighty pounds. 
 
 Q. Could you forwai'd a seventy or eighty pound salmon next year, if retjuested? 
 A. Yes ; I think so — last year we had one that when cut up for 
 seventy-thi 3 pounds. 
 
 Q. Could you pack up one to sentl like that ; I may say there is a collection being 
 made, and it would be most desirable to get one like that for the collection?- — A. We 
 would 1)6 most happy to do it. 
 
 No use for canning but ecjually 
 we give them to Indians— sometimes we 
 
 weighed 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 285 
 
 iome spring 
 
 aste of the 
 
 ction being 
 
 Q. Very well, if you will do so, I will be very much obliged. What is the average of 
 sockeye in your river? — A. About 8 or 9 pounds ; it takes aboui 10 to a case. 
 
 Q. Are there many humpbacks come up there? — A. Yes; most unfortunately 
 they are neary all humpbacks. 
 
 Q. You make no u.se of humpbacks? — A. No use whatever. 
 
 Q. Do Indians use them ? — A. Yes, altogether ; they dry better, and are not so oily. 
 
 Q. What about cohoes ? — A. Well, we don't use them. We have canned -some and 
 sent them to Europe ; but they don't ^^ ant them any more. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the salmon going up the Naas ; do all die, or do 
 some return? — A. Well, I don't know of that ; I never saw any returning. 
 
 Q. Were you ever there when they would be returning — in September or October 1 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Then you don't know if they return or not ? — A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. You have heard that tish after spawning get lean, lank and worn from exertion; 
 and exhaustion ? — A. I have heard so. 
 
 Q. Well, an opinion seems to prevail that tish go up and spawn and then die, and 
 I wish to find out if this is so. 
 
 Jii/ Jfr. Hiijf/ins : 
 
 Q. You never saw any returning? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Have you been far up the Naas River 1 — A. Yes, .some way ; but not far. I 
 may say that there is a gentleman who lives up the river, the Rev. Mr. McKay, a mission- 
 ary belonging to the English church^ a tine gentleman, and he has been studying the 
 tish up there and he tells me that in the month of April, when the ice would break up 
 often there were tliou.sands and tliousands of ducks called spoon-bills, and often he has 
 gone with his gun and hsis taken as many as 100 young salmon from thti stomach of one 
 duck, and he made a calculation that these ducks destroy at least 100,000 young salnujn 
 every day. 
 
 Jij/ Mr. Wibnot : 
 
 Q. But if you were told that young salmon were never there at that time what 
 would you think ? — A. Well, that is what he told me. 
 
 Q. And are there not other tish in those waters? — A. Nothing but trout. 
 
 Q. Is it a large lake ? — A. Yes, a pretty large lake. 
 
 Q. I think you must dispos.sess your mind that young .salmon would be at that 
 place in that time of the year, in April. There might be young salmon five or six 
 in ;hes long there at that time ; but not small ones — not small enough for a duck to 
 swallow. — .\. I may be wrong in the month ; but I know he said that whenever he put 
 his foot on n log the little tish would fly away in great numbers, and I think it is a 
 (juestion about which something must be done. We have no hatcheries ; we never asked 
 for any, and I know if that is true there must be a great many tisii destroyed. 
 
 Q. Is your river decreasing in tish, do you think ? — A. No ; not at all. Only la.st 
 yei'r we h{id so many humpbacks, but we could not use them. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Do yv(U know if there are many of those ducks there? — A. Well, you know how 
 they are in many places up river — thousands of them. 
 
 Q. You could not .trap them any way ? — A. Well, no. When I considered the 
 ([uestion over, I thought with tlie Rev. Mi\ ]\[cKay, that it was a very seiious thing 
 indeed that those young salmon should lie destroyed, and wo all think that the ducks 
 cat up a great many young salmon tliey go there regularly every morning and evening 
 wiiei'e the fi.sh have spawned and eat the eggs — when the ducks were killed in hundieds 
 and in all of them tliere were many numbers of those young tish and in one case as 
 many as 100, and I am speaking of this in all .seriousness- I think it a nutst important 
 matter and something should l)e done. The reverend gentleman thought perhaps if 
 bushes could l»e placed along the shore — something to get the ducks to fly in otlier direc- 
 tions, it might help matters. 
 
286 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Hit' 
 
 By Mr. Wi/mot : 
 
 Q. Well, I may state for youi- iiifurniation and that of your reverend friend — a 
 great many persons make a mistake in telling what aie young salmon. Young salmon 
 have the small adipose fins on the hack. If they have not they are not salmon. A 
 characteristic of the salmon the whole world ovei- is they have a second dorsal fin on the 
 hack and if they have not they are n(»t salmon. A. Well, we will investigate it. 
 
 Q. How often do humphacks come in the river? — A. Well, about cncry fifth year 
 — they were very plentiful the year I bought the cannery. 
 
 li;/ Mr. J/i(/i/iHs : 
 
 Q. And d(i they come in great numlieis and then disappear ?— A. Yes, some days 
 they will be in great nund)ei"s. 
 
 Q. And you do not use them ? A. No, not at all. v 
 
 (.}. Have you had any "short" years ? A. Only tiiis year, the year before we put 
 up 12,500 cases. 
 
 Q. And to what do you attribute that? A. Well, there were .so many immpbacks 
 we could not get them - it was not for scarcity of fish. 
 
 Q. How many cases did you put up I -A. 0,400. 
 
 Q. And do you think fish are decreasing uj) that river? -A. No. 
 
 Q. You get several hundreds of humj)l)acks in your net what do you do with 
 them ? — A. Let them drop out in the water again ^ they are no use. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And you tiiink the humpbacks getting in tiie net prevent the sockeyes from 
 getting in? A. Yes, the humpbacks occupy the attention of the fishermen so much they 
 get sick of them — last year their nets all slimed up and we swore, 1 am afraid, more than 
 we should have done. 
 
 Q. And do I understand that you would get as many sockeyes as you do humpbacks ? 
 — A. Oh, no ; the sockeyes are not nearly so plentiful we get several hundreds of humji- 
 backs to the boat l)ut we do not get as many sockeyes — the humpbacks come in great 
 nundiers- they fill the .small streams up almost solid. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Aritistroitf/ : 
 
 Q. In a .season when sockeye are plentiful do you catch many humpbacks ? -A. 
 No, not at all — the yeai- I went there the yockeye weie very plentiful they went as 
 many as .300 to the boat. 
 
 JJi/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You had 4.'5 boats out fishing would they average 000 or 700 humpbacks per 
 day? -A. Oh, no; not tliat ab<iut 300 I would say. 
 
 Q. Then scmie 12,000 humpbacks would be thrown away ? A. Yes, they were no 
 use — tli(^ Indians took ashore all they wanted to for their own use. 
 
 Q. Would the time in which you were catciiing this average of 400 humpbacks — 
 would the same be going on with the other canneries ? A. About the same. 
 
 Q. So you see that would make the enormous sum of odj.'iOO humpltacks thrown 
 away daily and they come ordy in the fifth year- now do you think in the fiftii year 
 from now you will have as large a crop? — A. I do — I think they will be larger. 
 
 Q. And humpbacks, .so far as y(»ur business is concerned, are useless and are not fit 
 fo(»d for man to eat ? — A. Quite useless ; they are good when first in the rivers; then 
 there is no hump on the back and they look rimch like sockeye salmon, but afterwards 
 they get lean, slim, miserable concerns that would turn a man disgusted from the very 
 look of them. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that all these fish with a hump are male fish, or have they all 
 humps ? — A. T cannot say that. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 287 
 
 1 fi'ieiid — a 
 uny salmon 
 lalinuii. A 
 A fin on the 
 te it. 
 y fifth year 
 
 ;, some days 
 
 fore we put 
 humpljacks 
 
 ynu do with 
 
 ckeyes from 
 i» nmcli tiiey 
 1, more than 
 
 lumpljacks 1 
 ids of hum})- 
 me ill great 
 
 backs? A. 
 ley went as 
 
 iphac'ks jtei' 
 
 K^y were no 
 
 imi)l)acks- - 
 
 ,cks thrown 
 fifth year 
 trcr. 
 
 are not fit 
 ivers ; then 
 afterwai'ds 
 m the very 
 
 \ o they all 
 
 Q. It is said by many that the humpback is the male fish — the hump growing (tn 
 the male fish after he is in the river. AVliat do you do with your offal ? — A. Well, it 
 g(;es down; we are a long way from the river. We bring the fish round and clean them 
 in Naas liasin and the offal is thrown into the sea. 
 
 Q. What is the height of tide then; ?— A. 22 feet. 
 
 Q. Then it runs largely up on banks then, does it? — A. Ye.s, sir. 
 
 Q. Will not the (tfFal be V)rought back on the beach again? — A. No, sir; it all goes 
 away. 
 
 Q. What is your idea with regai'd to fees payable for licenses, as you do your work 
 on the Naas, should fees be e«jual thi-oughout ? — A. T think that 8"' is enough on Naas 
 River when 620 is the rate on the l*^raser Kiver. 
 
 Q. Why ? A. Well, they have many j)?ivileges which we have not, such as a 
 hatchery and the haiding out of snags on the river. We never asked for hatcheri(!s or 
 f'oi' hauling out snags, our river is higliei- and if we take lalwiui' up we have to pay their 
 way up and down. 
 
 Q. How about competition then on the Fraser Uiver? — A. Well, we give high 
 wag(!S ; it i.s $40 and !?4.') to men, and women make from .'irl, !?1..")0 to !?2 a day. We 
 take whiteinen from here and ha\e to pay their fare both ways. 
 
 (Mr. Higgins here withdiew in order to attend to his other duties as Hpeaker of 
 the Legislature.) \t 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Ulfnioi : ^ 
 
 Q. Have you any spc^cial matt(M' you wish to lay before the IVjai'd, do you know 
 anything about the deep-sea fisheries? Are any carried on from Naas? Any cod, 
 halibut, etc. ? — A. There is halibut, T know : on my wharf we caught a halibut that 
 weighed 140 pounds. Then there are plenty of beautiful .sea-trout from one to three 
 pounds ; the Indians catch many of them. 
 
 Q. Thes(^ ,sea-ti'f>ut, do they go up river to spawn ? — A. I think so. 
 
 Q. 8o you see, the little fish the revercuid gentleman spoke of, may be little trout. 
 Do yon see any other fish eat the offal, etc. ? — A. No, except the dog-fish ; we s(^e some 
 of them. 
 
 Q. Ai-e the suckers very plentiful here, do you see them in your river? — A. No. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. ArinHtromj : 
 
 (}. You say the first year you went up you caught an average of 300 to the boat? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Yt)u have been up there o years, since then have you caught as many to the 
 boat? — A. Oh, yes; .some year.s, but what T wanted to explain was that the Naas River 
 fish are very regular ; we averaged 300 the hrst year and then we would uftt get more 
 than 50 to the boat, but the next year that average was 200 ; it wiis steady right along ; 
 we take down the average oi each boat every day. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 Q. And how many years have you been there ? — A. Four years. 
 
 C.^. I .see in ISS!) you p.acked 4,o.'39 cases, and in 1890 you are credited with 0,703 
 case.s, but ])revious to 1889 there is no record ?— A. No, sir; that is not so, you ate on 
 the wrong line .somewhere. 
 
 Q. You are A. .1. McLellan ; that is tlie name under which you pack ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Oh, yes ; I see (reading from British Columbia Board of Trade report, 1891, p. ol) 
 in 1888 it was 12,318 ca,ses, and in 1889, 10,039, and in 1890, 12,110 cases; what did 
 you pack last year ?— A. o,4H0 cases. 
 
 i}. How in regard to "off" and "<in" years? — A. Well, you have it there (referring 
 to report). 
 
 il. Aiul you have had three gtwul years and ()ne poor one, and that you attribute 
 to the run of humpbacks? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, I see the Cascade Packing Co., in 1889, caught 4,')39 cases, and in 1890, 
 0,793; the statement made by others then, that there is two "off" years and two "on" 
 years, does not operate there ? — A. Not to my knowledge. I have been informed by 
 
T 
 
 288 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 the Rev. Mr. Green, who has been two years on Naas, that sahnon run very reguhirly 
 except when there is a heavy run of liumpbacks ; that the Indians have told liim so ; 
 that for many years they will run the same year after year. 
 
 Q. This year then was an "off" year, brought about by humpbacks? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the spring salmon you catch, are they about alike in numbers 1 — A. No ; 
 they are not ; they were not as plentiful Last year as the last two years. 
 
 Q. The humpbacks do not interfere with them ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Then there may be an "off" year for them? — A. It may be possible. 
 
 Q. I think you stated ten fish made a case ? — A. Yes, ten. 
 
 Q. AVell, sir, have you anything else ? We have heard your information with 
 pleasure and profit. — A. I was just going to say about the offal thror.ghout the 
 Dominion of Canada ; in my own experience on the Atlantic Coast I do not know of 
 any offal there that would api)ly to the Pacific Coast ; they use it on land entirely and 
 there is no offal to speak of. 
 
 Q. But tiiere are other provinces than Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and 
 New Brunswick? — A. Oh, yes; but I have been in New Brunswick, too. 
 
 Q. Were you ever on Winter River or Dunk River? — ^A. Yes, I have been there. 
 
 Q. AVere there any salmon theie tlien ? — A. No, not at all. 
 
 (.}. Well, there are plenty of salmon there now ? — A. Well, they must have done it 
 with the hatcheiy tlien. 
 
 Q. No ; the hatcheiy is not now running ; I think you must have forgfitten about 
 the salmon being tiiere when you were a boy? — A. Well, we might catch an odd one 
 with a spear. 
 
 (,>. Then there were fish there, but you did not see them ? — A. Well, T don't think 
 there were many there. 
 
 Q. Then tlie offal of codfish is not allowed to be thrown in, and in England and 
 other places they have asked for restrictions that this offal shall not be thrown in, as it 
 drives the fisli from tiie fishing grounds. I merely mention that to show what is 
 thought of it in other places. Well, if you have nothing further to say? — A. No; I 
 don't think so. 
 
 At 4.40 p. m., the Chairman declared the Commission adjourned, to meet again at 
 10 a. m., on •Ith March, 1892. 
 
 Victoria, B.C., 4th March, 1892. 
 Mornimj Session. 
 
 The Commission was convened in the Board of Trade Rooms at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present : — Mr. S. AVilmot, in the chair ; Mr. .Sheriff Armsti'ong, Mr. Secretary 
 AVinter, and a numerous audience. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Before the commencement of regular proceedings, I would like to 
 say that my attention has been called to a subject which I think it my duty to lay before 
 the Board. T notice in the minutes of yesterday which have been made public in the 
 press, but which will appear correctly in the oflicial records, that remarks have fallen 
 from my brother Commissioners which would lead the public to think there has been 
 dissensions in the Connnission and this Board, and if this report is not correct, I think it 
 should be disputed. 
 
 Mr. HiGfiixs. — Certainly not dissensions. 
 
 Air. WiLMOT, (reading from Victoria " Colonist," 4th March, 1892), as follows : 
 
 "Commissioner Higgins. — Mr. Chairman, 1 think it is about time tiiat this conduct 
 was stopped. It is not right for you to enter into a wrangle with the witnesses and 
 thus lead people to .say things in retort when they are under oath that they would not 
 say in cooler moments. I never in my life saw a Commissioner do such a thing before 
 and I don't like to see it in this Fishery Commission. You know that Mr. Armstrong 
 and myself objected to your acting in this manner on the very first day of the enquiry 
 in New Westminister." 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 28^ 
 
 y regularly 
 )1(1 him so ; 
 
 L Yes. 
 ?-A. No; 
 
 ation with 
 iighout the 
 lOt know of 
 ntirely and 
 
 Scotia and 
 
 been there. 
 
 ave done it 
 
 )tten about 
 an odd one 
 
 don't think 
 
 [igland and 
 ivn in, as it 
 )W what is 
 -A. No; I 
 
 et again at 
 
 ISO- 
 
 Secretary 
 
 •uld like to 
 ay before 
 iblic in the 
 have fallen 
 ■e has been 
 , I think it 
 
 )llows : 
 lis conduct 
 nesses and 
 would not 
 ing Ijefore 
 Armstrong 
 he enquiry 
 
 This is rather a slur thrown not only upon the Commission but upon the Chairman 
 particularly, and I woukl like to ask the Commissioners if there were such dissensions, 
 and if not they sliould be contradicted, seeing that not oidy yesterday, but during 
 all former days that we have been sitting there has been no dissension whatever among 
 the Commissioners. 
 
 Mr. HifiGiNS. — You are addressing nie, Mr. Chairman, I presume — No ; I did not 
 say, in the first place, " I never saw a Commission or Chairman act so " — I am not respon- 
 sible for what the papers say but T would say I had a conversation with Mr. Armstrong 
 in regard to the way in which you were shaping the questions and we did not tiiink it 
 was the right way t(j lead witnesses to answer questions in certain ways T did speak to 
 Mr. Armstrong and he spoke to you and then you spoke to me about it. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTRONfi.- -Well, as I understand — it was as these (|uestions were l)othering 
 people and keeping tliem too long, but as to the manner in which the (juestions were 
 put it was not exactly as given by you. T thought all questions relating to habits of fish, 
 etc., should be given. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, di<l you tell Mr. Higgins that I had also the right to ask 
 questions relating to habits of fish, etc ? 
 
 Mr. Hir.riiNS. — Well, I know that Mr. Armstrong came to me and asked if T 
 thought you were going too far. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I may say that the reason Mr. Wilmot has been asking more 
 questions than his brother Commissioners was that when this Commission was asked for 
 it was thought right to get all information possible in regai-d to the fisheries of British 
 Columbia and the Pacific Coast, and Mi". Wilmot who has had nmch experience in fish 
 cultural operations has possibly explained a good deal in putting his questions. 
 
 Mr. HiGoii^. — Well, T am not in accord with you in your way of putting these 
 (|uestions — I think you feel yourself on trial in regard to that report (Fisheries Report, 
 1890)— it is not so at all. 
 
 (Cries of hear, hear, and applause from the audience.) 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — I would move that this meeting adjourn from this room — it is in 
 every way a private room and I do not like the way we are carrying on our business. 
 Persons shoi^d not applaud what is going on here. When we came from New 
 Westminster we understood that a public room had been provided for our meetings. 
 
 Mr. HiGfiiNS. — This room has been hired, sir, for the purposes of the Fishery Com- 
 mission ; it is as much a private room as anywhere in the city, but it is now a public 
 room and is open to the public. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstrong. — For myself I would prefer not having any applause. 
 
 Mr. Hi<i(iiNS. — Well, it occurred at New Westminster. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — I don't think so, Mr. Higgins. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(;iNS. — ^Well, I know it was stated that applause was made in New West- 
 minster to remarks from my lirother Connuissioners. 
 
 Mr. ARMSTROXfi. — Well, I object to sit hei-e ; it is a private room, and the public 
 do not know where the Commission is being held ; we should not have a private room ; 
 it has not been published in the newspapers except on one occasion, and the public do 
 not know of it. 
 
 Mr. HiG<iiNS. Well, Mr. Chairman, while we are arranging these preliminaries, I 
 would like to send out for Mr. Dempster, a gentleman who has had great experience on 
 Uie Skeena River. Mr. Snuth is here from the Legislature. 
 
 Mr. AViLMOT. — Shall we issue a subpu'ua for Mr. Dempster? 
 
 Mr. HrcjGiNS, -Well, I think you objected to expense. I do not think it would be 
 necessai-y to issue a sul)po'iui for him. Mr. Johnston will be here in a little time; Mr. 
 Smith is here. 
 
 Mr. Armsthong. — Well, if your over-rule my objection, I object to sitting here in 
 ii jirivate room. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Your objection is recorded. 
 
 Mr. Ahmhtronc;. — Well, it is a great pity, I think, that we should sit here in a 
 private room. 
 
 10c- 19 
 
290 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 m 
 
 ALFRED W. SMITH, M.P.P., a native of England, in British Colunil)ia for 31 
 years, a merchant and trader in the upper countiy, and a member of the Local Legisla- 
 ture, was duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wi/iuot : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Smith, are you desirous of putting anything before this Connnission ? — 
 A. Well, I would rather answer (juestions. T cannot say that I am an expert in tishing ; 
 but I have had a good deal of experience and observation in regard to salmon in the 
 upper rivers. 
 
 Q. Would you prefer questions rf habits of salmon ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 y. Do you specially refer to any one river '/ — A. The Eraser lliver and vicinity of 
 Lillooet. 
 
 Q. Then your information would apply to the Eraser River at Lillooet particularly ? 
 —A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What salmon fre(juent Lillooet to your knowledge ? — A. Well, early in spring, 
 along in May and June, the large silvery salmon reach that point ; they call them the 
 spring salmon ; they are not very numerous at that point. As to the mode of catching 
 them, you can see the Indians, who are the principal oneS who catch them, with hoop- 
 nets : but owing to the nature of the river and the shore, you cannot see them (the fish), 
 and it is difficult to catch them with hoop-nets while standing on the shore. These fish 
 would weigh 12 to 16 pounds — possibly some larger and some smaller. 
 
 Q. They average from 12 to 16 pounds? — A. I should think they would. Then 
 about the first of August, though seasons vary, some early and some late, the run is 
 called the sockeye. 
 
 Q. Would you kindly go on with the spring 8alm(»n first ; the one species first ; do 
 they spawn there? — A. Well, that I cannot tell you, because I have never seen them 
 .spawn. 
 
 Q. Can you describe any peculiarity of these fish — are some white and some red ? 
 — A. Not at that season of the year ; I think it is later. 
 
 Q. Tlien the season you refer to is in August ? — A. I was going to say the 
 same species of fish come up in September. The same in every wa^ but a little 
 larger on an average. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge as to the meat — is it red or white ? — A. It is 
 more of a pink. It is the same in the spring as in the fall — it is a pink salmon. As far 
 as that is concerned there is another fish larger in size, but their flesh is always white. 
 It will run from twenty to forty pounds. 
 
 -A. Along in September — the 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Hv/f/hiK : 
 
 Q. In what part of the year do they come up ? 
 latter part of September and October. 
 
 Jit/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. And they are red-meated ? — A. No ; all white-meated. 
 
 Q. Do they resemble other fish ? — A. In shape they do, but they are almost black 
 — very dark. Their flesh is very oily and fat. They are not eaten by any one except 
 by Indians, except on rare occasions. 
 
 Q. And what is your experience as to quality of white and red meat ? — ^A. The 
 white meat is very strong^ — not pleasant at all. I have eaten some of it. 
 
 Q. And that is not the case with red-meated fish ? — A. No ; they are very fine 
 flavoured fish the red-meated ones and silvery ones ; and the black Hsh run about the 
 same time ; the black ones^i little later, if anything. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by "run?" — A. Well, when they pass by Lillooet. 
 
 Q. The reason I ask you, sir, that question is this : that all salmon change theii- 
 colour after entering a river and t'le flesh becomes whiter, so it is possible they may be 
 the same species. That would make these changes come? — A. They must change their 
 shape and everything else then, sir ; of course, their shape is the same as fish, but you 
 can tell on sight of them they are white-meated salmon. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA KISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 291 
 
 il)ia for 31 
 :al Lejjisla- 
 
 niission? — 
 t ill fishing ; 
 non in the 
 
 vicinity f)f 
 
 iirticularly ? 
 
 y in spring, 
 [l them the 
 of catching 
 with hoop- 
 tn (the fish), 
 These fish 
 
 luld. Then 
 , the run is 
 
 ies first ; dd 
 r seen them 
 
 some I 
 
 •ed? 
 
 to say the 
 but a little 
 
 ?— A. It is 
 ion. As far 
 ways white. 
 
 tember — the 
 
 ilmost black 
 one except 
 
 ,t?— A. The 
 
 i-e very fine 
 n about the 
 
 Det. 
 
 change their 
 hey may be 
 ihange theii- 
 ish, but you 
 
 Q. And are you able to give us an opinion as to flavour and taste of these fish — 
 you are speaking of them passing Lillooet ? — A. Yes ; that is where I am forming my 
 opinion. 
 
 Q. You will pardon my (|uestions because there is much divergence of opinion as 
 regards this spring sahnon — ^some white and some red. My brother Commi.ssioner hei-e 
 thinks the taste of the white is very fine. 
 
 3Ir. Hl<i(JiN8.--Yes ; for private use I prefer it. - A. Well, the reasons, probably, 
 l)ecause every one up the country don't like them is, possibly, for the reasons you 
 state — that is, because it is approaching spawning time. I know I don't like them. 
 
 liy Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Have you noticed what state the ovaries are in — as they pass there would they 
 appear nearly ready for spawning 1 — A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Would the eggs be held together or loose ? — A. They are held together. 
 
 Cj. Then you see they are not ripe. Would you give us some description of the 
 .sockeye fish? — A. The 1st of August is about the average time of the sockeye passing 
 Lillooet. 
 
 Q. What is their appearance at that time 1 — A. They vary a little. As a rule, 
 they are all darkish coloured and a little silvery. Their back is rather darker than 
 their bellies. 
 
 Q. You have seen them in the lower part of the river 1 — A. Yes, they are dai-ker 
 tliere than in the lower part. 
 
 Q. Where do these fish pass up to ? — A. Oh, they go in every little stream and 
 lake they run in great abundance in the Fraser River about a week after their first 
 appearance the river is perfectly full of them you can see their backs sticking out of 
 the water and any one catching them can catch them with anything -the Indians gene- 
 lally use a small hoop-net -the run is very great and they have to be very careful in 
 putting it in because they catch 10 or 1.5 in one net — I have known them to be pitch- 
 fijrked out and in fact anything will catch them. 
 
 Q. How far is Lillooet up river? — A. Oh, nearly 200 miles- it is 100 miles above 
 Yale. 
 
 Q. And are there difficulties in the way between the navigable portion of the river 
 and Lillooet? A. Well, there is a rapid current and rocks in many places. 
 
 Q. Don't they have to pass through caiions ? A. Yes, that is below Yale — when 
 tiiey get 12 or 14 miles above Yale they are through the worst places. 
 
 Q. And would that be the place where persons im the train would see the fish? 
 A. That would be below Yale the railway don't pass our place. 
 
 Q. And they are red in flesh then ? — A. Yes, they vary in size — the flesh is very 
 red and they would weigh about 7 to 10 pounds, I should judge -something like that — 
 I never was bright in weighing though. 
 
 Q. You spoke of eggs in white salmon -have you ever noticed eggs in sockeye ? 
 How do they appear ? — A. About the same the Indians gather tliem and dry them 
 and they all hang together they gathei- them in great (juantities. 
 
 Q. Have the Indians or the inhabitants a preference for sockeye ? — A. Yes, they 
 have a preference for sockeye over all others, the Indians use the sockeye more than 
 others — they seldom dry the other kinds of fish. 
 
 Q. Could you give the Connnission an idea as to how the spring salmon and sock- 
 eye deposit their eggs ? — A. I cannot they always appear to be moving up in that 
 section. 
 
 Q. Is there no opinion about it in your section ? -A. Well, there is an opinion that 
 they spawn in creeks and lakes when they get to Lillooet there is quite a large lake and 
 where they go and then there is another lake connected with it and they will still 
 follow on up those creeks emptying into Anderson Lake as far as they can go and I 
 tliink there is no doubt they do spawn there. 
 
 Q. Do you see many fish dead there? — A. Hundreds of thousands you can see 
 them anywhere- any one going up in September will see the shoi'fis lined with them and 
 in any little stream that runs in they fill it perfectly full and die there. 
 10c— 19^ 
 
I 7l'MW tlLf 
 
 ?Ti w>ry 1 
 
 292 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. You cannot say whether they die after or l)efore depositing their eggs ? -A. 
 No, I ne\er examined that. 
 
 Q. The natural idea would he it was after from extreme prostration ? - A. Yes, sir ; 
 I would suppose so. 
 
 Q. Do you see many of these lish passing down by Lillooet dead t - A. Yes, many of 
 them. 
 
 (^. At what time? A. About the end of September — many of them are nmch 
 decayed. 
 
 Q. Any living tish there '! — -A. Oh, there are living fish right up to December ; 
 until the cold weather c(mies and kills them. 
 
 Q. Is it possible foi- any of these tish to pass down sti-eam ? -A. Well, some very 
 likely do, but I never saw a salnum passing down stream head first. 
 
 Q. I may mention that is a peculiarity of salmon, that they never go down head 
 first, they always go tail first ? — A. Well, I may say I have seen them in places trying 
 to head up, but not going generally head first. 
 
 Q. I may say, sir, that salnum generally always drop down stream in that way 1— 
 A. I may say that in those streams there the salmon get so thick they cannot move, 
 but I never saw them trying to get back. 
 
 Q. But you have seen them in a wiggling state until frost came with heads up 
 stream 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Ifl(/(jins : 
 
 Q, Dead fish 1 — A. Dead and living fish ; you will see them in hundreds of 
 thousands. 
 
 Q. Do you think these living fish have parted with their spawn before they got in 
 that condition 1 — A. I think they have ; they quite change their appearance ; the sock- 
 eye gets half red and early in the season you will see them all colouis with swollen 
 white spots and other spol s. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. From wounds passing up i-iver 1 — A. Oh, yes ; some you will see with fins gone 
 and tails ; that is not altogethe", but late in the season you will see them in that way. 
 
 Q. I may say, sir, we have taken eggs from the Pacific Coast over to Ontario and 
 they have the same experience in the fall, after the spawning season they lose parts of 
 their tails and look a lean, lanky and mi. . able fish. So you see we have the same ex- 
 perience there as here. Have you anything further to state about the sockeye ?— A. Xo : 
 I don't think I have. 
 
 Q. Have you not another description of fish, the humpback 1 — A. Yes, sir ; they 
 are rather thinner and flatter, not so round as the sockeye, though about the same size, 
 they are always white-meated. 
 
 Q. Their outward appearance is what?- -A. A dark colour, not a silvery colour. 
 
 Q. And they pass up in great numbers ? — A. Some seasons they are generally late ; 
 they come after the sockeye ; that is after the best of the sockeye have gone up ; of 
 course some are alway* there, but I mean after the heavy run of sockeye have passed 
 up, but when they come there is not so many of the sockeye. 
 
 Q. Are all humpbacks the same or are these humpbacks only males ? — A. Well, I 
 cannot tell you that ; the Indians regard them as a difl'erent kind of fish. No one uses 
 them at all except Indians, and they won't use them if they can get any other. The 
 sockeye is the great fish for the Indian up there. 
 
 Q. And when do they pass up ?— A. Along in September and up to when the cold 
 weather comes in. 
 
 Q. And do you say they die in numbers 1 — A. No ; I cannot say that. I never 
 gave particular attention to them. They have a perfectly healthy appearance, but are 
 of inferior dmracter. No one uses them i>r eats them except the Indians. 
 
 Q. And you never noticed them dead in the river ? — A. No ; I have not noticed 
 
 them. 
 
 Q. Do you know how far they go up ? — A. I do not. 
 
ej^gs? -A. 
 
 i.. Yf's, sir ; 
 
 es, many < it' 
 
 1 are iiiucli 
 
 December ; 
 
 , some very 
 
 down head 
 [aces trying 
 
 bat way? — 
 iinot move, 
 
 1 heads up 
 
 undreds of 
 
 they gut in 
 : ; the sock- 
 ith swollen 
 
 th tins gone 
 1 that way. 
 !)ntari(» and 
 ose parts of 
 he same ex- 
 ?_A. No: 
 
 s, sir ; they 
 le same size, 
 
 y colour, 
 lerally late : 
 ,'one up ; of 
 have passed 
 
 -A. Well, I 
 No on(^ uses 
 :)ther. The 
 
 len the cold 
 
 ,t. I never 
 nee, hut are 
 
 not noticed 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 293 
 
 ii. And have you another tish that comes up, the ccihoetjualla ,' A. Well, I do 
 not know them hy those names ; they are not called hy nanu^s, as down here. We have 
 the large salmon, the .spring salmon, then the sockeye, and the large black or white- 
 nieated salmon and the humpbacks. 
 
 (}. And have you no knowledge of the cohoe ? \. No, I cannot say T have; 
 there is another Hsh .something like the sjiring salmon that comes u|) ; the colour is not 
 «|uite so silvery ; they are a dark Hsh ; those, I suppose, are the ones called coh(»es. 
 
 Q. Have you a tish called "dog salmon" there ? A. No, sii- ; 1 don't know it by 
 tiiat name, 
 
 J{ij Mr. Arnistrovii : 
 
 Q. Do you notice nmch ditlerence in the (|uaMtity of sockeye in ditVerent seasons 
 going up .' A. There is a great ditlerence; hardly any two sea.sons alike; they vary 
 very much. Whenever we hear of a large run of tisii in the Lower Fra.ser we haxe it 
 up tiiere ; .sometimes we have a run of small soekeye up there that get thiough the nets 
 down here. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wi/niof : 
 
 Q. There is one question, sir, in noticing the sockeye, many dead, etc., have you 
 ever noticed marks on the bodies as if they had got through the nets ? A. Oh, yes ; I 
 have seen tliose marks where they have been in the meshes of the net. 
 
 i}. And have you seen soi-eness oi' a fungus growth on wounds of dead <jr dying 
 tish ? A. Well, F never examined them .so closely as that ; whenever we go to get a 
 tish, if we do not get a go(td one, we sim]»ly put it back and get another. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. I may say this fungus giowtli is veiy destructive to tish the world 
 over. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Arnixtrtniij : 
 
 (^. Do you notice many young Hsh going flown the river ? A. Well, you cannot 
 .see in the main river, out in the small streams a great many go down. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. \\'ifm,>f : 
 
 Q. What do you mean Viy "young Hsh?" A. Well, there are a great many go out 
 of 8eton Lake ; the Indians catch great numbers of them. 
 
 Q. What length would they be ? A. Two and a half inches long, not oserthat; 
 later in the season they get larger than that, but tiiey are ne\er so numerous. 
 
 Q. That is going out of Hcton Lake f A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is Seton Lake surrounded by feeders running into it?- A. Yes; theie are some 
 small streams, but as a rule the streams would not harbour the fish until they got up to 
 Andei'son Lake and the waters beyond that. 
 
 Q. And Indians catch great numbers of them? — A. Yes. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Arinxtronij : 
 
 Q. What do Indians do with them ? — A. They diy them and eat them. 
 
 (.^. Do they catch bigger ones later in the season ? A. Well, later in the season ; 
 the latter end of September and middle to end of October, there is a class of fish fi'om 
 six to eight inches long that rises to the surface of the water and l)ect»mes inHated and 
 you will see hundi'eds of thousands rf tho.se fish. 
 
 Q. Dead ? — ^A. No, they are not dead ; the Indians go out and will fill their canoe 
 with these fish about the size of a herring, but there is so much aii- in them they will 
 not sink. 
 
 Q. Have you ever thought they were young salmon ? A. Well, I have often 
 thought that they were young salmon the meat is ([uite pink and they have very much 
 the appearance of salmon trout in shape and eveiything else- with this same (juality of 
 fish about the middle of Octol)er they go up on top of the water on Seton Lake well, 
 Ander.son Lsike is connected with Seton Lake by a stream a mile or two long they go 
 up in the lake in the same way they are inflated with wind. 
 
 X 
 
/ 
 
 2H 
 
 MARINK AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. They could hnrcU.y be a SHlmon I should think 1 ~ A. No ; I don't think they 
 
 are. 
 
 Q. And then it is not the habit of salmon to float always on top of the water. — A. 
 Well, these cannot get down — they are full of air and float on the water until the cold 
 weather kills them. Some folks suppose that they are salmon, and the reasctn theycon)e 
 up in two stops in the different lakes is that salmon in coming there to deposit their 
 spawn are much later in Anderson Lake and that would make the young fish much 
 longer in attaining their growth. 
 
 Q. 1 may mention, sir, tft you that L»ike Ontario has in certain seasons of the year 
 thousands and thousands of small fish about four to si.\ inches long floating on the sur- 
 face of the water and so many of them that people have to move their residences on 
 account of the stench. 
 
 By Mr. J/iyi/inn : 
 
 Q. And these IfKtk like young salmon? Do you ever go angling for trout? — A. 
 Oh, yes, often. 
 
 Q. And will trout up there take the fly ? A. No; not in the spawning seafon — 
 the trout there are very much larger than ordinary trout and feed largely on the salmon 
 spawn. 
 
 Q. And is it the popular opinion that trout destroy the spawn ?- A. Yes ; that is 
 the general opinion — Indians say they eat the spawn — I never went into it very much 
 myself. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wifniot : 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the salmon going down river? — A. No; I have seen but 
 very few. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. //i!/(/in.i : 
 
 Q. Well, the late Inspector of Fisheries considered that only five per cent go back 
 from the Rocky Mountains and some twenty per cent only from nearer waters — do you 
 think that is right ?- -A. I think even less than that go down. The Indians think but 
 very few go back. 
 
 Mr. W'lLMOT. — As we are referring to habits of salmon and Mr. Mowat's opinion 
 has been drawn in, I have taken the trouble to get a copy of Mr. Mowat's letter to 
 Judge Swan and I may read a portion of it bearing on the point. I merely mention 
 this Ijecause we have had the matter up before — he says, you see, that seventy-five per 
 cent return if they don't go far and five per cent from extreme distances. 
 
 By Mr. Hicjyins : 
 
 A. Yes ; scarcely 
 Thirty-five 
 
 Q. Yes ; but Mr. Smith thinks hardly any of them return I 
 any t)f them are ever seen going back. 
 
 Q. -Vnd you have been thirty-five years resident at Lillouet ? — A. Yes. 
 years. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. And what are these you have seen at Lillooet ? — A. These are wounded ones and 
 they appear to be making every effort to go up. 
 
 Q. You have observed a great many runs of fish in thirty-five years— are you of 
 opinion that fish are increasing or decreasing ? — A. I have not seen a bit of it. 
 
 Q. Well, say the period of seven years last. Were runs same as before — a good 
 year some years, and a falling off at others ? — A. I have not noticed any difference at all. 
 
 Q. Not since the hatchery has been established ? — A. No ; there are the same 
 many, many fiyh. I do not think the fish hatched can be taken into account. I 
 suppose if you took all the fish in one mile in the Fraser River, you would have more 
 fish than have ever been planted. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 295 
 
 By Mr. Wilnwt : 
 
 Q. Well, I limy say those yoiinj,' fish always come hack U» their own waters?— A. 
 T may say tish come up river and then go in Lillooet Lake, ami then into Lillooet River, 
 and they are very abundant there. 
 
 Q. That is full grown Hsh ? A. Yes ; the full grown fish. 
 
 C^. It is pretty well known now that fish that are natives of say, Morris Stream, 
 for instance, and Siwash Stream, the fish that were natives of that stream would not 
 ascend higher up at any time, neither would their oflspring. What effect has dead fish 
 on the inhabitants ? — A. Well, on small creeks people don't pretend to u.se the water 
 there at all. 
 
 Jiy Mr. niijyiiiK : 
 
 Q. But on the Fraser River ? — A. Well, on the Frasei- River I don't know as it would 
 make any efiect ; the river is swift and large, and they go down very fast. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of illness caused by this ? — ^A. No ; I have not. For my 
 own part, T never eat a salmon in the upper country. 
 
 Q. Do you ever drink any water there ? — A. Not of late years and never from the 
 river. We take our water from spi-ings, and at small strei>ms, they do not use the water. 
 I may say that at Lillooet mill the ofFal got into the wheel and stopped the operations. 
 
 Q. Dead salmon ? — A. Dead salmon. 
 
 lii/ Mr. Wiliitot : 
 
 Q. I may mention, sir, that is not an unusual occurrence in other parts of the 
 country ? — A. Oh, yes ; I know. 
 
 By Mr. lliggins : 
 
 Q. Did you ever shoot any spoon-bill ducks up there 1 — A. No, sir ; none at all. 
 
 By Mr. Wifmot: 
 
 Q. You don't know then what they may carry in their crops ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to suggest ? — A. Nothing at all. I may say as 
 regards the health — that is, the dead fish — I don't know, because I do not think people 
 have ever thought much of it, but I should think the effects of dead fish would efi'ect 
 the health of the community. 
 
 Q. Are the inhabitants in any way numerous along these streams 1 — A. No ; there 
 are some, but not many. 
 
 Q. Then you would not hear of any case of sickness there? — A. Well, as I say, I 
 have not heard of any — then the cold weather conies on after these dead fish come, and 
 that would prevent any ofiensiveness after that. 
 
 Q. Do any animals feed on these fish ? —A. Oh, yes ; cattle and hogs eat fish up there, 
 
 Q. How does it effect hogs ? — A. It makes the flesh unsaleable. 
 
 Q. What eflfect has it on cows — on the milk? — A. Well, I suppose it must affect 
 the milk. Of course, I have seen some cows eat salmon, but you cannot say it is a 
 general thing. I have heard that if the fish were cooked, it would not affect the flesh. 
 
 Q. I may say, sir, that I have seen a couple of cows eat (juite a number of salmon 
 in a day, and .salmon of twenty -Ave pounds weight, too, and caught by myself. A. Have 
 you anything further to ask me, sir? 
 
 Q. No, I think not, Mr. rjmith ; we are much obliged to you for your attendance 
 and for the information you have given us ; thank you, sir.- -A. Oh, not at all ; I am 
 pleased if I have told you anything of value. , 
 
296 
 
 MARINE AND FrSBERIES. 
 
 m 
 
 Hon. r. O'HKILIiY, Indian llt',s»(rv»> Cmnniission*'!', ii native nf Irelaiul, li\iM^'in 
 British Colunibiii since lf<')l>, was duly sworn. 
 
 /{i/ Mr. Wi/iiinf : 
 
 Q. W«'ll, sir, it' ynu are (lesinius i»f >,'ivin^' nuy infoiniatiitn we will b«' very nhu\ t<> 
 liear it? — A. \V«'ll, Mr. \V'ilui(»t, I do not tiiiiik i could ,t,Mve any valuable iiiforniation ; 
 T have not been in a position to ^Wt) anything' in particular. 
 
 t^. Well, sir, we nii;;lit ask you (|uestion8 ? A. Oh, yes ; I will be very <f\m\ to 
 answer »|ueHtions m- ;;ive my I'eason tor not beinj; alile to do so. 
 
 ij. The first ([uestion on our list is as reju;ards the olVal. What etlect do you think 
 it has on the river ? A. I have had no opportunity of judyinj,' ; when 1 kn«'W the 
 Lower Kra.ser Hiver the industry was in its infancy. 
 
 Q. Then there was not sullicient thrown in then to allow you to judjje ,'— A. No; 
 there were vvvy few canneries at that time. 
 
 Q. Then you only know by hear.'iay ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would it be out of places for you to state wliat you have heard? A. Well, f 
 liavi' heard di\ers opinions ; some say it is injuri(jus and .some others it has no effect 
 whatever. 
 
 C^. Well, the effect of saw-du.st on salmon ? A. Well, a'.ain, I can only say I have 
 always heard that saw-dust was injurious ; I do not pretend to know much about it 
 thoujfh ; I do not speak practically upon it. 
 
 Q. Then the (|uestion of limitation of nets? A. T have not the slightest knowledjfe 
 upon that. 
 
 Ci>. Well, as to the Sunday clos" time, whethei- the Sunday should be kept in its 
 entirety or a portion of it devoted to tishinj; ; the close .season at present is frcmi G a. m. 
 Saturday, to j).m. Sunday ; many are under the im)>ression that it should contain the 
 whole Sunday; have you any opinion on that point? A. On ;,'eneral jtrinciples I 
 should be very jflad t(t .see the Sunday kept, but my evidence must l)e mostly hearsay ; 
 I have not l)een resident in the vicinity of canneries for many years. 
 
 Q. Jiut do you think on <^eneial principles that Sunday should be observed ? A. 
 Certainly. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the effects of artificial breeding of tish ? A. None 
 whatev er. 
 
 Q. Then on the (|uestion of the limitation of licenses, persons conung to the country 
 cannot get licenses, do you think resident fishermen and British subjects should get 
 licenses f — A. Of couise on general i)rinciples 1 .should think every British subject 
 .should be encouraged in every industry, but T have n > special knowledge on that either. 
 
 i}. Then do I draw the conclusion that persons emigrating here should ]h' entitled 
 to licenses? A. Oh, certainly, most certaiidy. 
 
 Q. A\'ell, I don't know, uidess you have any other matter to advance — that we can 
 ask you anything further. -A. I do not think I could throw any light of value upon 
 youi- enijuiry. 
 
 />// Jfr. J/ If/;/ ins : 
 
 Q. You have travelled much in the inLerior? A. Y'es. 
 
 Q. Have you evei' noticed the fish ascending the rivers and streams? -A. I have 
 noticed tlieni and know of streams where the fish once numerous are now depleted, and 
 others have much increased. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Could you give tht names of those streams, Judge O'Beilly, where salmon have 
 disappeared? — A. Tlie Upp m" Columbia Hiver for one. 
 
 Q. That runs out in An\erican Territoiy ? — A. Y''es. 
 
 Q. What cause was assi j;ned ? — A. The Indians as.sign the extensive trapping and 
 catching of fish on the Lowet Columbia River. 
 
 Mr. HitifiiNs. — There is lo hatchery on the Columbia River ? 
 
BRITISH COLUMHIA FISHERY COMMISSION, 
 
 S97 
 
 1, li\ in^' ill 
 
 I'lV f^liul to 
 t'liriiiatioii : 
 
 vy j,'l)ul to 
 
 • yuii think 
 kiifw tilt' 
 
 ?-A. No; 
 
 A. Wfll, I 
 Ls no effect 
 
 siiy I liu\ e 
 •ii aliout it 
 
 kno\\l('(li;t' 
 
 kejit in its 
 I'oni G a. III. 
 L-ontain the 
 riiR'iplt's 1 
 ly hearsay ; 
 
 ■ned? A. 
 
 A. None 
 
 le coil n try 
 lould ^'et 
 ill .subject 
 lat either. 
 )(' entitled 
 
 lat we can 
 aliie upon 
 
 A. I have 
 ileted, and 
 
 linon have 
 
 ipin<>' and 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Oil, yes theic are two or three ot" them. 
 Mr, HuitiiNs. liut they don't put them in ahove / 
 .Mr. Wii.MOT. (»h, no. 
 
 //// Mr. //!i/;fliis : 
 
 Q. Would you issue licenses to independent or individual tishermen without rej,'aid 
 to caiinerH ? A. Oh, certainly not unless there was danjjer ot" over tishin^', then I 
 think there should lie a limit. 
 
 Q. Well, if uunners had no licenses and fishermen hud all, would that place can iiei;s 
 at the mercy of the tishermen .' A. I should think so that would he a monopoly. 
 
 ii. And on the other hand if cunneis i.'ot all and tisheiineii none, would it imt lie 
 the same thiiij; on the other side .' A. ( >li, yes ; 1 don i think there should he a mono- 
 poly on either side. 
 
 Q. Do you ever hear of ohstructions heinj; i)ut in tiie Colunihia Hiver to prevent 
 lish from ascendin;j ? A. T have heard they were in the habit of puttiiisf traps and 
 wheels in the river there. 
 
 Q. Eiave you ever .seen one of those risli wheels in operation / A. N(), I have not. 
 The Hsh are ascendin;; in <;reat iiunilters in the Lillonet liiver, 
 
 Q, When were you there, .ludjfe.' .\. In Auj,'ust. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wllmnf : 
 
 Q. Were there many dead and <lyin;,' tish then? A. Not then there would be 
 later on I have passed down and saw many numbers and the dead afterwards. 
 
 Q, Had they then spawned do you know .' A. Well, the spawninj; IhhIs were 
 piiinted out to me and I .saw places where they had plouj.dHHl up, etc. 
 
 Q. Tt is said after tish go up they die and none come down have you any opinion 
 on that point ! A. Well, I do not know I have seen living,' (isii very weak on the way 
 down, 
 
 Q. Head foremost or tail fir.st, or how ?- A. Well, ] think I have .seen them in all 
 positions head first tiyin<; to .stem the current, etc. 
 
 Q. Well, if you have nothing further, Judge O'lieilly. we are much ttbligcd to you 
 for youi' information. A. You are (|uite welcome I am sorry it is not of more value 
 to you. 
 
 Mr, J, H, TODD, a native of Ontario, resident of Victoria, B.C., an imiiorterand 
 .salmon canner, having; been thirty years in ilritish Columbia and ten years in the 
 salmon canning business, was duly sworn. 
 
 Mr. Todd proceeded to read his evidence from a written document, the first part 
 being a lettei- from a friend on the Columbia Hiver, l^S., exjilaining the present con- 
 dition of no restrictions on that river, and forwarding copy of a bill which had been 
 introduced in the Legislature of Oregon on the subject of the salmon Hsheries, 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. This letter you are reading, is it fi'om a packer, not an authentic government 
 report ? -A. Yes; from a packer: liut fium a man from whom every word T will 
 \enture as authentic. 
 
 Q. Of course ; but the proper way i.s to take the regular statutes of the country, 
 -A. (holding up letter from which he had been reading) This is perfectly coi'iect, and 
 1 have a copy of the bill which will prove that tlie statements are accredited. T submit 
 them as evidence, 
 
 Mr. Ak.m.stkon(;. — But we will not take them as evidence. 
 
 Mr, Hir.GlNS. — Oh, don't be in a hurry. Wait till we see them, 
 
 Mr, ToDi), — AVell, I may say I wrote to the.se parties on account of my conversa- 
 tion with yourself and Mr. Armstrong, a few nights ago, and this letter is the reply. 
 
298 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Akmstronn. — Well, but suppose everybody should write like this and put in 
 all sorts of documents — ^we cannot do things like that, you know, 
 
 Mr. Hi«i(iiNS. — Well, I daresay Mr. Todd has enterprise enough to get those papers 
 properly certified, and then it might go in. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, he i ay put it in as information. 
 
 The letter read by Mr. Todd was as follows : — 
 
 Astoria, Oregon, 25th February, 1892. 
 
 Messrs. J. H. Todd it Son, 
 Victoria, B.C. 
 
 Gentlemen, — We have your favour of the 19th instant, and herewith enclose a 
 copy of the joint Oregon and Washington tish law as now in operation, which will 
 answer most of the enquiries that you make. 
 
 Fishing licenses are not required and each cannery may employ as many boats, 
 traps, or seines they deem to their interest, there being no restriction in this matter. 
 There is a separate law, however, which piovides that no man may tish who has not 
 been a citizen of either state for the six months prior to the time that he commences to 
 ftsh, and a citizen of the United States for one year prior to that time. 
 
 Any method of catching fish may be used, either gill-net, trap, seine, or wheel, and 
 in fact, there are no restrictions, except as to the close seasons and times, which are 
 fully explained in the enclosed copy of the law. 
 
 On the upper river the offal is allowed to fall into the river at each cannery, but on 
 the lowei- river it is gathered up by a party engaged in making salmon oil and thus dis- 
 posed of, though there are no legal regulations in the matter. 
 
 We think this will cover about all the points mentioned in your letter, and any 
 that occur to us in that connection. 
 
 We note that the packers on your streams contemplate the restriction of packs, as 
 the Alaska packers have done. Just what will be done on this river, it is impossible to 
 say as yet, but as fai- as the quantity of a pack is cf)nceined, it does not cut much (»f a 
 figure, because we know that we can only do about so much, varying ])ut little from 
 season to season, and about all of the pack has a regular trade in the United States, 
 cimseejuently cuts no figure as to the supply of foreign markets. The price of fish has 
 not yet l)een agreed upon, but in our opinion will l>e !^1, and packers will necessarily be 
 much firmer in their selling ideas than they were last seasdu, for the reason that when 
 the season of 1S91 opened, most of the packers expected to get fish for 75 cents and 
 sold accoixlingly, but luid U» pay 81 foi" their fish, thus making no money. This season 
 they expect to pay )$1, and will raise tlieir selling ideas proportionately, so that all 
 things combine this season to make a much firmei- market than has been for several 
 years past. 
 
 If we have overlooked any information that you would like to have, do not hesitate 
 to call upon us at any time, and we shall always cheerfully he of any service that lies 
 in our power. 
 
 Very truly yours, 
 
 (Signed) GEORGE S: BARKER. 
 
 Mr. ToDi). — And this, gentlemen, is the Bill embodying the laws at present in 
 force — Senate Bill, No. 205 — introduced by Senator Fulton, of Oregon (proceeds to read 
 Bill). Though this is but a copy of the Bill, I know that it was approved as this reads 
 on 17th February, 1891, and is now the law. 
 
and put in 
 hose papers 
 
 , 189: 
 
 * AlFX 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HSRT COMMISSION. 
 The Bill is as follows : — 
 
 Oregon Legislature. 
 
 299 
 
 Sixteenth Session. 
 
 SENATE BILL No. 205. 
 
 Introduced by Mr. Fulton. 
 
 h enclose a 
 I which will 
 
 many boats, 
 this matter, 
 v^ho has not 
 iminences to 
 
 f wheel, and 
 s, which are 
 
 nery, l>ut on 
 nd thus dis- 
 
 ter, and any 
 
 of packs, as 
 
 mpossible to 
 
 t much of a 
 
 little from 
 
 ited States, 
 
 of tish has 
 
 cessarily be 
 
 that when 
 
 5 cents and 
 
 'his season 
 
 so that all 
 
 for several 
 
 not hesitate 
 ^e that lies 
 
 fcKER. 
 
 present in 
 eeds to read 
 this reads 
 
 A DILL 
 
 For an Act to protect salmon and other food fishes in the State of Oregon and upon all 
 waters upon which this State has concurrent jurisdiction, and to repeal sections 
 3489, 3490, 3491, 3492, 3493, 3494, 3495, 3496, 3497 and 3498 of Hill's Annotated 
 Laws of Oregon. 
 
 lie it enacted by the Leyisfntive Asseiiibfy of the State of Oregon : 
 
 Section 1. It shall be unlawful to take or tish for salmon in the Columbia River or 
 its tributaries by any means whatever in any year hereafter, between the first day of 
 March and the tenth day of April, or between the tenth day of August and the tenth 
 (lay of September, or in any of the rivers and bays of the State or the Columbia River 
 during the weekly close time — that is to say, between the hourx of si.r o\-Iork ji.oi. <ni 
 each and every Saturday and .'<u: o\'tock in the aftertioun of the foVonnny Sunday, clone 
 finie : provided, that in Clackamas River it shall not be lawful to take or fish ior salmon, 
 by any means whatever, between the tenth day of August and the first day of October ; 
 iind any person or persons fishing for or catching salmon in violation of this section, or 
 fishing for salmon by leaving or having any fishing gear in the water in a condition to 
 take fish, or purchasing salmon so unlawfully caught, or having in his or their possession 
 any such salmon, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, aud upon conviction thereof, 
 be fined in a sum not less than fifty dollars nor more than two hundred and fifty dollars. 
 
 Section 2. It shall be unlawful in any manner to catch, kill or destroy any salmon 
 on or within one mile below any rack or other obstruction erected across any river or 
 stream for the purpose of obtaining fish for prt)pagation, and any person or persons 
 violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, 
 and upon conviction theret)f be fined in a sum not less than fifty dollars nor more than 
 two hundred and fifty dollars, and any and all appliances used in the violation of this 
 Act, viz. : boats, nets, traps, wheels, seines or other appliances shall be subject to ex- 
 ecution for the payment of the fine herein imposed. 
 
 Section 3. It ^lall not be lawful for any person or persons to take or fish for 
 salmon in the wat^ > of the Nehalem, Tillamook, Nestucca, Salmon, Siletz, Yacjuina, 
 Alsea, Siuslaw, Umpqua, Coos Bay, Coquille, Sixes, Elk, Chetco, Rogue River, Wind- 
 rhuck or any of their tributaries, or in any other stn^ams or bays in this State except 
 the Columbia River and their tributaries, fi'oni the 15th day of November until the first 
 (lay of April during my year hereafter, and any person or persons violating any of the 
 |ii(ivisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, and upon conviction 
 thereof be fined in a sum not less than fifty dollars nor more than two hundred and 
 fifty dollars. 
 
 Section 4. It shall not be lawful for any pound net, set net, trap weir or other 
 fixed appliance for taking fish, to extend more than one-third of the way across the 
 l»i'eadth of any stream, channel or slough, at the time and place of such fishing, and 
 any person or persons violating any of (he provisions of this section shall be deemed 
 guilty of a misdemeanour, and upon conviction thereof be fined not less than fifty dollars 
 nor more than two hundred and fifty dollars. 
 
 Section 5. It shall not be lawful to cast or pass or allow to be cast or passed into 
 any waters of this State into which salmon or trout are wont to be, any lime, gas, 
 fdculus, indicus, or any other substance deleterious to fish, and any person or persons 
 
300 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES 
 
 violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and upon 
 conviction thereof be fined in a sum not less than fifty dollars nor more than two 
 huiidi-ed and fifty dollars. 
 
 Section 6. It shall V)e unlawful for any person or persons t(j receive or have in his 
 possession, or to offer for sale or transportation, or to transport during the close season 
 in the spring, namely, from March first to April tenth, any of the following varieties or 
 kind <tf fresh fish : Chinook salmon, silver salmon, steelhead or blue])ack, and any person 
 or persons violating any of the provisions of this section siiall be deemed guilty of a mis- 
 demeanour, and be fined in a sum not less than fifty dollars nor more than two hundred 
 and fifty dollars. 
 
 Section 7. Any person or persons now owning or maintaining, or who .shall here- 
 after construct or maintain any dam or other obstruction across any stream in this State 
 which any food fish are wont to ascend, without providing a suitable fishway or ladder 
 for the fish to j)ass over such obstruction, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, and 
 upon conviction thereof be punished by a fine of not le.ss than one hundred dollars nor 
 more than two hundred and fifty dollars, and said dam or obstruction may, in the dis- 
 cretion of the court, be abated as a nuisance. 
 
 Section S. It shall not be lawful for the proprietor of any saw-mill in this State, 
 or any employee therein, or any other person, to cast saw-dust, plainer shavings or othei- 
 lumbei- waste made by any lumber manufacturing concern, or suffer oi- permit such saw- 
 dust, shavings or other lumber waste to be thrown or discharged in any manner into the 
 wateis of this State, oi- the Columbia River, or to dej)osit the same where high wpter 
 will take the same into any of the waters of this State, or the Columbia Blve; • u.^ 
 any person or persons violating any of the provisions of this section shall !■'■ dtv i ' 
 guilty of a misdemeanour, and upon conviction thereof shall be fined in a sUi' not i^'ss 
 than one hundred dollars nor more than two hundred and fifty dollars. 
 
 Section 9. Whenever the term salmon is used in this Act, it shall be construed to 
 include chinook, steelhead, blueback, silverside and all other species of salmon. 
 
 Section 10. All the moneys collected under the provisions of this Act shall be paid 
 into a fund to be known as a fish commission fund. 
 
 Section 11. Payment of any fine and cost imposed under the provisions of this Act 
 shall be enforced in the .same manner as is now provided by law in other criminal 
 actions. 
 
 Section 12. Justices of peace shall have concurrent jurisdiction with the circuit 
 court of all offences mentioned in this Act. 
 
 Section \'\. Nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to prevent the taking of 
 fish at any time of the year and in any manner for propagation. 
 
 Section 14. Every person or jiersons owning or operating or using any pound net 
 shall, during the weekly close times aforesaid, cause the entrance thereto and into tlie 
 heart thereof to be securely closed in such manner as to prevent fish from entering the 
 .same, and the tunnel thereof shall l)e lifted so that fish cannot pass through it. And 
 every person owning, using or operating any pound net or trap in any river or waters of 
 this State or in any river or waters over or upon which this State has concurrent juris- 
 diction, shall cause to be j)osted in a conspicuous place thereon a number not less than 
 six inches high, painted in black on a white ground, which nundier shall be named and 
 designated to such person by the fish commission, and such person oi- persons ^o owning, 
 using or operating any such trap or pound net shall conspicuously show at night time, 
 between sunset and sunrise, a bright white light ; and any person violating any of the 
 pnnisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanoui' and upon conviction 
 thereof shall be fined not less than ten dollars iKjr more than two hundred and fifty 
 dollars. 
 
 Section 1"). That sections .'Mf^'J, ;UI)0, iUyi, ;U9l', :U93, ;U1)4, 3490, 349(3, 3497 
 and 349S of the general laws of Oregon, as annotated and compiled by W. Lair Hil 
 be and the same are hereby repealed. 
 
 Section 10. This Act shall be in force from and after its approval. 
 
 Approved 17th February, 1S91. 
 
 Ml'. ToniJ. Before leaving this point, I would like to r. ;i,'e a r> ruit'k in regard to 
 the responsil)ilities of agents It was remarked yesterday tbur ;», person nould not take 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 301 
 
 1 this State, 
 
 the circuit 
 le takint; of 
 
 urrent iui's- 
 
 •ulil not take 
 
 a commissitm or aju;eticy even suppose there was a good commission attached to it, and 
 it was with a view of showinff that aj^ents occupy a very responsible position in connec- 
 tion witli the canning industry. They do the tinancinj; and furnish the means for the 
 canneries for whicli they ai'e agents, consequently the risk is very large and the small 
 amount of commission which they receive for their services would not warrant them in 
 taking an agency unless it was a success. 
 
 ]i}l Mr. Wilniot : 
 
 (J. Do I understand then that unless a company is successful the agent would not 
 get his connnission ? — A. Well, it is not connected directly with it it is hased on the 
 product. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. I think what Mi'. Todd means is that if the product does not tui-n out well, the 
 agent will not get his money back. - A. Yes, Mr. Armstrong undeivstands it -I merely 
 wanted to mention it. 
 
 ^fr. Todd proceeded to read from his memorandum and referred toofFal having l>een 
 at one time deposited in pens or ci'ibs by oi'der of the Department. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Is that so — the Department requii-ed the offal to l)e put into bins? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I don't know about that — Mr. McNab, can you say if this was so ? 
 
 Mr. McNab.- Yes, I Vielieve that is cjuite correct — it was before my time, but I 
 believe it was cribbed under directions from the Department. 
 
 Mr. TouD. — When I make a statement, Mr. Commissioner, you will please take it. 
 (Applause from audience.) 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Order, order, gentlemen ; (to Mr. Todd). Oh, I don't doubt your word, but I 
 was not aware that such was the case. — A. Yes, and it just shows the folly of having 
 to defer to people at Ottawa who are so far away, they do not know anything ab(»ut the 
 matter. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Was it not the fault of your representatives, Mr. Todd, in not having the matter 
 rectified ?— A. Well, unfortunately, our representatives have never been paid much 
 heed to. 
 
 Mr. Todd then proceeded, reading fi-oni his memorandum on the question (tf licenses 
 — advocating the granting of twenty-five licenses to each cannery, and unlimited licenses to 
 fishermen — during this Mr. Wilmot's name was mentioned in connection svith the state- 
 inents contained in his report of 1890. 
 
 By Mr Wifmot : 
 
 Q. You bring my name in there, sir / — ^A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. The facts and figures taken by Mr. Wilimit were taken from your own reports, 
 i', furnished to the Department A. But, I have seen in the evidence given — so many 
 rtsh to the boat, etc. Now, sir, T have the facts here for every season since '88 — the 
 detailed catches of the cf»ntract boats during each season and taken from oui- books. 
 
 Q. Are these the daily catches ? — A. For the whole season now I will just read 
 the figures for "88. Kichniond Cannery- Todd i^- Sons— "Chas. Victor," ^r^7 ; "Felix," 
 S45; "Old Jim," 1,308; " Frank," 822 : " Cemon," 9.32 ; "Old Charley," 499 ; "Peal," 
 1,114 ; " Kanaka Joe," 1,260 ; " Croney," 879 ; " Peter," 9r)2 ; "Capt. Jack," 522 ; " P. 
 (ionsally," 1,344 ; " Philip," 879 ; " Ali»ertson," 411 ; " Hilly Bell," 474 ; " Kenneth," 
 454. Sixteen contractors — fish, 13,().")2 — average 854 — 32 days fishing average for 24 
 hours, 27 fish. 
 
 Q. That was a short year, was it not?— A. I am well aware of it, sir. 
 
 Q. Was not 1889 a bigger year? -A. If you have patience, sir, I will tell you 
 l)resently. (continued reading) Richmond Cannery, season 1889 — Todd & Sons : Con- 
 tract boats fishing, 10. Season connnenced 15th July; season ended, 25tli August; 
 ecpial days of 24 hours, deducting 30 hours per week close tinie, .32 (lays. Contiactors' 
 
302 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 catches, "Kanaka Joe," 5,723; " Cemon," 8,493; "Old Jim," 9,931; "Garupie," 
 7,671 ; "P. Gonsally," 8,876 ; " Tom," 6,712 ; " Frank & Old Charley," 8,696 ; "Philip," 
 8,398; "Capt. Jack," 7,175 ; "Edwards," 7,697. 10 contractors caught 79,372 fish, 
 average 7,937. 32 days fishing equals average per 24 hours, 248. 
 
 Q. The contractors are whom? — A. Both outside fishermen and our own men. The 
 men get pay for the fish turned in and so it does not matter. They are whitemen, 
 Indians, and all kinds, more or less. 
 
 Q. Then you see these averages are much more than any we have hf\d. The gen- 
 eral average was about 6,000 ? — A. Well, I read it in the papers. 
 
 Q. Do you believe all j'ou see in the papers, sir ? — A. Well, when I see it comes 
 from a reliable source like this Commission, I certainly think it correct. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — But the Commission has had nothing in the papers ; not a thing. 
 
 ^Ir. Todd then read his figures for 1890 and 1891, after which the memoranda as 
 to the catches were handed to the Secretary for record. 
 
 Mr. Todd. — I give you the different years and you will see it all depends tpon the 
 run. 
 
 The data put in by Mr. Todd were as follows : — 
 
 Richitiond Cfinnery, SeasoH of 1888, J. II. Todd & Sons. 
 
 Contract boats fi^^hing, 16. Season commenced, 10th July; season ended, 20tli 
 August. E({ual dayt f '• 'lours, deducting 36 hours for weekly close time, 32. Total 
 catch during season, 13, average, 854. 32 days, equal average per 24 hours of 27. 
 
 Contract boats fishing , S89, 10; 1890, 16. Season commenced, 1889, 15th July ; 
 1890, 4tli July ; season ended, 1889, 25th August ; 1890, 20th August. Equal days of 
 24 hours, deducting 36 hours weekly close time, 1889, 32 ; 1890, 38. Total contractors' 
 catch for season 1889, 79,372 ; 1890, 79,654. Average per 24 hours, 1889, 248 ; 1890, 
 131. Average per contractor for season, 1889, 7,937 ; 1890, 4,981. 
 
 Contract boats fishing, 1891, 20; season commenced, 1891, 7th July; season 
 ended, 1891, 30th August. Equal days of 24 hours (less close time) 1891, 43. Total 
 
 contractors' catches, 1891, 60,787. 
 man per 24 hours, 1891, 70. 
 
 Average per contractoi-, 1891, 3,039. Average per 
 
 Beaver Cannery. 
 
 Contract boats fishing, 1889, 9 ; 1890, 16 ; 1891, 14. Season commenced, 1889, 
 15th J jly: 1890, 4th July ; 1891, 7th July; season ended, 1889, 25th August; 1890, 
 
 20th August; 1891, 30th 
 
 August. 
 
 Fishing days of 24 hours, 1889, 32 ; 1890, 38 ; 
 
 1891, 43. Total contractors' catches, 1889, 73,603 ; 1890, 77,255 ; 1891, 57,798. 
 Average contractors' catches, 1889, 8,067; 1890, 4,830; 1891,4,128. Average con- 
 tractors' per 24 hours, 1889, 252; 1890, 128 ; 1891 96. 
 
 Q. Then as to the close season? — A. I think the close season as it stands at present 
 is all right ; I think laying off at 7 o'clock on Saturday morning and c<mimencing again 
 on Sunday night is about the correct thing as well as we can get it. I will ask your 
 Commission to allow me to make a statement re Alaska pack. It was last year about 
 800,000 cases ; they have unanimously decided to limit it this year to one-half that 
 amount. I mention this so that there should be as few restrictions put <»n canners here 
 as possible ; when we have to compete with a place like Alaska, where the catch of fish 
 cost them almost nothing ; now this year they have decided to reduce their catch one- 
 half. I will just hand in this memo, on the subject to the Secretary, so it may go on 
 record : — 
 
 " Alaska : there are thirty-four canneries, of which only nine are to work this 
 season ; give reasons as poor business ; pack to be reduced from 800,000 cases in 1891 to 
 400,000 cases in 1892." 
 
 ny Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. And what are the reasons for this? — ^A. Simply on account of the over-supply 
 of salmt>n in the markets ot the world. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 303 
 
 Be it comes 
 
 Q. Well, how would that affect you if the Government put a limit upon you here ? 
 A. Well, we are voluntarily restricting our supply this coming year ourselves. 
 
 Q. Now, you instance you use 50 boats in a poor season, and in a good season you 
 want 100? — A. Oh, no ; only we require more boats in a poor year than in a good year. 
 
 Q. But is not that affecting the interests of the fishery? — A. No ; not at all ; we 
 have abundance of fish, and the (juantity of fish is not decreasing, but is increasing ; 
 that is shown, I think, clearly from the records. 
 
 ]hj Mr. Hiygins : 
 
 Q. Are both your canneries on Canoe Pass, Mr. Todd? — A. No ; one is on the main 
 river and the other on the channel. 
 
 Q. How do you dispose of your offal ? — A. We put it in the water. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen it afterwards? — A. No ; it is carried off and disappears. 
 
 Q. Have you had complaints that any (.)ffal catches in your nets? — A. No, sir ; not 
 one, and for that reason I cannot believe that the statements that have been made are 
 wholly true, because I will say with our own experience of our own boats we have never 
 once heard of complaints on that score. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 Q. If fifteen or twenty people would swear that, would you say it was not true ? — 
 A. No ; but I am speaking from my own knowledge. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Are you at the cannery during the season ?— A. Yes ; most all the time. 
 
 Q. Have your ever drank any of the water ? — A. Yes, I have. Now, I would like 
 to say a word on that. 1 would say that the great trouble of inhabitants on the Fraser 
 River is they should filter their water; we have used a filter for our purposes always. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of a case of typhoid around your neighbourhood ? — A. 
 Well, there have been .some ; but I do not know of any in our immediate neighbour- 
 hood. I have known of it in the mountains, in the city, and all the way round ; there is 
 typhoid everywhere, and I do not know of any cases where it could come from the 
 water. It exists in places where there appears to be any bad water or smells, etc. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Where does it generally prevail ? — A. Well, wherever the greatest amount of 
 decaying matter is I suppose, but it is everywhere more or less, and not only on Fraser 
 River but all round. 
 
 Q. I think where foul or impure water is found^is that so? — A. Well, I cannot 
 say that — here right in this city, in the dirtiest place in the Chinese quarter,! have never 
 heard of a case of typhoid fever yet. I don't know how it is our people will get it — 
 now, there is Judge O'Reilly, who gave his evidence just before me — his son has got it, 
 and I am sure there is not a cleaner place in the city of Victoria than around his 
 premises, and yet he has got it. 
 
 Q. The microbes or germs nmst have got in then — well, have you anything further 
 to say ? — A. No. 
 
 Mr. R. P. Rithet at this point handed in a telegram to Mr. Wilmot, bearing upon 
 the sittings of the Conmiission, and enquiring the length of time the Commission would 
 sit in Victoria. 
 
 Mr. Armstroncj. — We were informed that there were a number of fishermen from 
 Skeena River who wished to give evidence - now, we have had none of them yet I think 
 — now, if you have any fishermen from that part of the country that would desire to 
 give evidence ? 
 
 Mr. RiTilET. — I think so— I will enijuire. 
 
 Mr. Armstron(5. — Well, are there many fishermen go from here up north to work ? 
 
 Mr. Rithet. -Yes, I think so. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Well, if there are no fishermen or others here, T do not see why 
 we should sit on Monday, if we can get done to morrow — I would like to have some 
 practical fishermen if possible, like we had in New Westminster. 
 
304 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 b*. J 
 
 l.:i 
 
 
 Mr. Hkujins. — I think we can wire him t(» come down by boat to-morrow and give 
 his evidence to-morrow -I don't think there will be any need to sit on Monday at all. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Very well then, tell him to come to-morrow. (A gentleman in the 
 audience. ) Most of the fishermen have already gone north. 
 
 Mr. Hkjuins.- L think Mr. Dempster, if possible, should come here and give evi- 
 dence—he would be a moat important witness. ^A gentleman in the audience.) The 
 Commission ought to go to the Skeena River and take evidence there. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, it would be impossible — then the fishermen would be busily 
 engaged. 
 
 Mr. RoBEKT Wakd. -Mr. Chairman, I am on oath and I would like to make just 
 one addition to my evidence of yesterday that has just been suggosted to me The 
 unanimous desire of all interested in the fishing business is that the authorities should 
 come here and visit the localities in the fishing season. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — But could practical fishermen be obtained then ? 
 
 Mr. Ward. -I think so — the fishermen are not always actively engaged — they 
 work in two shifts. 
 
 Mr. Armstroxc;. — ^Well, if the fishery interest can bring sufficient influence to bear 
 on the Dominion Government to let us come around in the fishing season, I am sure we 
 will be only too glad to take advantage of it. 
 
 Mr. Ward. — Well, I am sure the Government would not grudge a few dollars to 
 get the valuable information they would obtain by visiting the fishing places during the 
 fishing season. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT But the Conmiission could not sit until next September. 
 
 Mr. Ward. — -T would suggest they adjourn until then. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — But then there would be no report, Mr. Ward. 
 
 Mr. Ward. — Well then, the Commission could make iufcrim recomnn idations, so 
 that there would be n(j suffering on account of delay. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I may say we have already made suggestions to the Govern- 
 ment, so that no hardship may ensue. 
 
 Mr. Arm.strong. — Yes ; and I n^.ay say that before we left New Westminster, Mr. 
 Wilmoi was wtvited upon by a delegation from the New Westminster Board of Trade 
 requesting that a decision be arrived at at an early day. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.- -Yes ; and I may say that I informed the delegation that I would 
 suggest to the department the desirability of getting these regulations ready as soon as 
 possible, and that an interim license should be issued lasting until the 1st of June ; but 
 as regards the cannei-s, this '^ommissi'^>n would have their report in shape beff)re the 
 canners would commence their operations. They generally commence, I believe, along 
 in .June, and before then the Commission would have reported assuredly. But, I may 
 state, and I do so publicly, that my opinion is, the Government would not make any 
 radical or material alteration in the matter, whatever may be the recommendations of 
 this Commissifm. 
 
 Mr. HuioiNS. — Why should not this Conmiission recommend as a body that no 
 alteration should take place in the present state of affairs for this year ? Now, you 
 must know it will take a long time to transcribe this evidence ; it is most important, 
 and cannot be hurried, and afiects many of our fellow-citizens very much ; we should 
 go over it carefully, etc. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — But, I would say that if we have to wait here until June 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(!iNS.- -I do not think it will be ready, from appo'u-ances, until the fall. 
 
 Mr. Ward. — T think no change should take place in the regulations this year. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — When do the preparatory operations begin 1 
 
 Mr. Ward. — Well, T think on the northern rivers they have already commenced ; 
 and on the P'raser Ri\ er they will very soon commence also, and it is very hard to make 
 even an approximate calculation until it is known what the Government intend to d<.>. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT (to Mr. McNabb). When do you first issue the licenses, Mr. Inspector? 
 
 Ml'. McNabb. Well, just as they apply for them. The northern canneries apply 
 often in January and February. It is very important for them that they should know 
 the licenses they are to get, some time beforehand, as early as possible. 
 
w and {five 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 305 
 
 Mr. AuMSTHOXfJ. — Well, I think the Couiniission iiiifjlit meet and decide on some 
 points -on recommendations to carry out this year. TsbMiu' 
 
 Mr. Ar.E.x. E\vi;n. — Well, wo feel it is a greai hardship, not kno\vin<; how to ])re- 
 pare for our work. Tt may turn out from this Commission, and from remai-ks that 
 have been made, that we will he almost prohibited, and the restrictions will be so great 
 that we may have to arrange — we liaAe Ijoen threatened with all sorts of things. 
 
 Mr. AinisTHONO. — Pard(tn me, Mr. P^wen, do you say you have been threatened ? 
 
 Mr. EwKN. — I have been threatened with being fined 8100 a day. 
 
 jVfr. AuMSTRO\(!. — Oh, no ; we simjjly told you the law. We told you you were 
 liable to be fined. You should not go so far in making statements. T merely told you 
 the (Jovernment had no power to overrule an Act of Parliament. Parliament is the 
 highest court oi the land, and the Govi>rnment cannot override that. Now, the general 
 impression is that • 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I must call you gentlemen to oi-der ; we must proceed to business. 
 
 ASHDOWN GllEEX, a native of England, twenty-nine years in Biitish Columbia, 
 a civil engineer, and resident of A'ictoria, B.C., was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Green, if you have anything to tell us we will be very glad to hear 
 you. — A. I do not know that I have any statement to volunteer — I have been requested 
 to come here and give any information on the natural history of salmon that I may 
 know — I have not had much opportunity to get .special information on salmon, but I 
 have thought if there is anything I can give I will be very happy to do so. 
 
 Q. Well, I may say I feel a little hesitation in putting these questions, because at 
 New Westminster I felt them particularly tedious — I may say, however, that the object 
 of this Commission is not only for the canners or thefishermen,but to obtain all information 
 pos.sible as regards the habits of fish, etc., in order that the (}overnment may derive informa- 
 tion useful for the preservation of the supply. — A. The spring salmon and the cohoes 
 are the ones with which I am best accpuiinted. 
 
 Q. What are your views with regard to spring salmon— on what streams do you 
 specially refer to 1 — A. I know most of the streams in British Columbia, not intimately, 
 l)ut from travelling through and taking notes of different streams. 
 
 Q. When do spring salmon enter the rivers 1 — A. At different times — hardly two 
 rivers are alike. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the Eraser River? — A. Very little. 
 
 Q. What river then ?- A. The Cowichan River — it is a small stream, but you can 
 observe a small stream better than a big one — the Cowichan is about thirty or forty 
 miles from here on the east coast of Vancouver Island. 
 
 Q. What is the size of that stream at the ordinaiy height of water ? — A. It varies, 
 but the Cowichan is very broad now — about 120 or 130 feet or perhaps 150 on an 
 average. 
 
 Q. Is it rapid in current ? — A. Rapid in current and navigable for -bout half a 
 mile or three-quarters — the upper part is rocky and gravelly and the lower through 
 lovely soil. 
 
 Q. And do you consider it a good breeding river 1 — A. Yes ; a good breeding 
 
 stream. 
 
 Q. Do salmon breed in the river or do they go in smaller lakes and streams at head 
 waters? — A. Yes ; at the smaller waters. 
 
 Q. When do they spawn ? — A. In October at the head of the river and later in the 
 small streams at headquarters. 
 
 Q. And that is the universal time of spawning of salmon on this coast ? — A. Yes ; 
 about that— some a little earlier — Octobei- would cover the principal spawning time. 
 
 Q. What process is undergone by salmon in depositing their eggs T— A. The 
 quinnat spawn in pairs — the others do not. 
 
 Q. Do not the sockeye too ?— A. I know nothing of thesockeye. 
 10c— 20 
 
306 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 i.J 
 
 Q. Then you are referring more particularly to sprinj^ salmon ami cohoes ? — A. 
 Yes ; and also the humpbacks and dog-salniofl — they do not spawn in pairs — in shoals 
 and masses. 
 
 Q. Well, have you any knowledge of the time in which the young fish are produced 
 from the egg— what season of the year? — A. No; I cannot find that out — I have to 
 observe when I can. I understand the sockeye comes out in the following spring. 
 
 Q. Then an estimation would be about the same time ? — A. About the same time, 
 I suppose. 
 
 Q. Have you seen parrs 1 — A. Yes, plentifully ; T never saw the smolt but plenty 
 of parrs. I think the fish stay less time than in England. I do not think they stay 
 above one year, but you must recollect I never fished for small fish ; those I have seen 
 would not be above H or 9 inches long. 
 
 Q. Then you think fish in Cowichan stream very like fish of eastern provinces 
 and Great Britain? — A. Well, they are very nearly but theie is a great difference, too. 
 Now in England many poachers will catch smolts without scales, or they will come off' 
 in their hands, but I have never seen that here. 
 
 Q. The practice you speak of is done with fly fishing ? - -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Any fly fishing practiced here ? — A. No ; very little. 
 
 Q. And these smolt luive scales before they go to sea ? — A. Oh, yes ; they 
 would not live in the sea without the scales. 
 
 Q. Then you draw the conclusion that spring salmon or " quinnai/ " is very nearly 
 identical with the salmon of the eastern provinces and Great Britain? — They are very 
 similar. 
 
 Q. And should the same protection be afforded here or not ? — -A. I think the same 
 protection should be afforded here, certainly. 
 
 Q. Are any of those "quinnat" salmon both red and white-meated ? — A. They are. 
 
 Q. At what season more numerous ? — A. Well, I have never noticed them in the 
 Cowichan ; as far as I have seen they are all red-meated there. 
 
 Q. Can you assign any reason for this ? — A. Well, I cannot say. I have an idea 
 they may be ffsh returning from the upper waters. 
 
 Q. Then spring salmon become white-meated after spawning ? — A. Yes ; there is 
 no doubt they are much like the habits of salmon in England and elsewhere, except as 
 regards the smolts ; they are quite different. 
 
 Q. And do you think these white ffsh are spent ffsh that have spawned and lost 
 their colour ? — A. Oh, no ; I do not think so. The spring salmon when they run in 
 they do not stay long in tidal water, but go up to the pools and stay there. 
 
 Q. And then the habits of all salmon are to have feeding grounds in the deep sea 
 and breeding grounds in fresh water ? — A. Yes ; but I think these spring salmon have 
 also feeding places in fresh water. Now many opening a salmon here would think 
 there is nothing in it ; now a salmon's stomach in the sea is very large and capable of 
 holding two or three herrings ; now in the river it is not larger than that pencil. 
 
 Q. He does not feed 1 — A. But he does though, I think. It might be a provision 
 of nature to make room for his eggs. 
 
 Q. But do not you think it a wise provision of nature that ffsh should not eat their 
 own progeny? — A. I do not know a ffsh but does not eat their own young, not even 
 the soft-mouthed ffsh tfiat does not. 
 
 Q. But, is it not generally accepted that salmon do not eat in fresh water 1 — A. It 
 is, but this is a different genus of ffsh. Of cf>ur.se it has not been sufficiently found out, 
 but I think if it could be it would be found they do eat. 
 
 Q. But if many thousands o)' salmon were found on dissection with stomachs 
 sealed and nothing in them, would iv not be a certiffcate that they do not eat in fresh 
 water ? — A. Yes^ it would ; but these Cowichan salmon are different. It would apply 
 to salmon in the east, but these I consider eat. I would like to examine them and 
 know more abf/ut them before expressing myself definitely. 
 
 £t/ Mr. Hvjijins : 
 Q. Will the mountain trout eat the ova of the salmon ? — A. Certainly they will. 
 
BRITISH COLUJ.BIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 307 
 
 ink the same 
 
 have an idea 
 
 want to get at 
 -the steel- 
 
 B)j Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 (J. Tt is a well known theory that all fish live upon smaller ones ? — A. Oh, yes ; 
 suckers, too, are desti-uctive to the spawn. 
 
 Q. How can suckers eat the eggs of the salmon if imbedded in the gravel ? — A. 
 Well, hut there are many loose. 
 
 Q. But would not tliey be the eggs of other Hsh lying on the bottom 1 — A. Well, 
 perhaps so. 
 
 By Mr. Uvjijinx : 
 
 Q. What are these tnjut, Mr. Green ?— A. Well, tliat is what I 
 myself. I have seen young salmon sold as trout. Tiiere are two trout here 
 head is one, and the other is the c(»mnion trout. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the salmon trout that fretpient the Great Lakes? — A. 
 Yes ; there are two trout here. 
 
 Q. Is it possible to distinguish the young salmon from the ti-out ? — A. Yes ; quite 
 easily. The trout are all larger — have nine lays in caudal fin, and all salmon have from 
 eleven to fourteen. 
 
 Q. But the transvei'se bars are very small, and it is very difficult for an ordinary 
 person to distinguish the difference ?- A. Oh, yes ; you could not tell them at all but 
 for the fins — you could not tell them but for them. 
 
 Mr. HuifiiNs. — What T want to find out, jSlr. Wilmot — I am getting from you — 
 that is what I complained of before You are, of course, a gentleman known to be 
 familiar with these things ; but I am not, and wish to get my information from the 
 witnesses who appear before us. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Right, sii- ; proceed. 
 
 Mr. HiOfJixs. — Are these trout sold in the markets as young salmon or not 1 
 
 Mr. Grken. — Well, I could not tell that. I never see many that I would know not 
 salmon. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Well, I know it is held by many people that they are not trout, but that all 
 are salmon in different stages of development. — A. Yes ; that is quite extensively. 
 
 Q. And do you think if more salmon trout were destroyed, more salmon would be pre- 
 served ? — A. Oh, yes ; certainly. The less salmon destroyed, the more, of course, would 
 come to maturity ; but then the trout are a good fish and can be netted by millions in 
 the Fraser River and Cowichan especially. 
 
 Q. What do you think of fish going up rivei- and dying ? — A. Well, a great many 
 die, but not all. I could not give the percentage, but I feel sure many die. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do you see many dead fish in Cowichan River 1 — A. Oh, yes ; many of them. 
 Now, I have heard gentlemen here state they found 700 dead fish, but you go and pick 
 up 700 and yon will pretty well clean them out. I think the dead ones small in pro- 
 portion to those that go up. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. You speak of a small river. — ^A. Oh, yes. Of course, in a small river the dead 
 would not be so many as in a great river where they would have to go farther. 
 
 Q. Then you do not think all fioh that go up die ? — A. Oh, no ; certainly not. 
 
 Q. In regard to " quinnat " salmon for food, what is your opinion of them for that 1 
 — A. Well, if they be culls, they are well ameiuled culls, indeed. I do not think they 
 are inferior ; many people like them better than red salmon, but they will not sell at all. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. May I ask you your experience in regard to salmon in England and Scotland, 
 etc. ? — A. I have had very little experience in Scotland or elsewhere, 
 10c— 20^ 
 
308 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 m 
 
 Q. But have you noticed that the undo aiihnon at ruttinji time has a larpje excre- 
 scence on the lower jaw ? A. Yes ; he has, and tiien goes to the sea and sheds it. 
 
 i}. It is thought here by a large number ot" pei-sons that they do not do tJiis. — A. 
 Oh, well I think they do. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed all male fish carry it ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do sockeye the same thing? -A. \es ; l)ut i\ot .so strongly pronounced. 
 
 Q, Then with regard to colour of salmon does it colour from a bright red colour 
 to one nmch lighter? A. Oh yes. 
 
 Q. And you tliink salmon here are very like sahnon on the Atlantic coast and else- 
 where ? — A. They are very much alike anyway — more so than any other fish we have 
 here. 
 
 Q. ])o you know in other countries that a certain number of fish die after spawn- 
 ing? — A. Cei'taiidy they Ho from the same cause as here fungus. 
 
 Q. And in a river here with so many more fish -millions of them — that there 
 would be more of those dead fish ? -A. Yes; naturally there would be only numbers in 
 greater pioportion - in these I'ivers so rocky and rapid they are moie liable to get 
 scratched, etc., and then fungus grows uj)on them. 
 
 Q. Is it not liable on account of tlie great number of nets here that fish would get 
 abrasions, etc. ? — A. Well, I do not know — they are so much more liable to get damaged 
 on rocks, etc., in going up streams. 
 
 Q. Could you angle for salmon in these rivers ? — -A. There are no inoi-e than a 
 dozen rivers in liritish Columl)ia where you can catch Hsh with a fly. 
 
 Q. Have you caught them with a Hy in the Cowichan ? — A. Some have been taken 
 ■ — grilse. 
 
 Q. Then from the wholo aspect of evidence and from personal knowledge the 
 ((uinnat should ajjpear veiy similar to all other fish in all other parts of the woi-ld? — 
 A. The ((uinnat is very similar. 
 
 Q. Is the Cowichan frozen ovei' ? — A. No ; n6t at all. T don't think we have any 
 rivers that would be frozen over unless at the mouths. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. JIi(/ffins : 
 
 Q. Do you think (|uinnat and sockeye are identical ? — A. No — not at all- — every- 
 thing is different — the points and everything are different. I think the cohoe has more 
 rays than the (|uinnat. I would not be cjuite certain. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Is it not characteristic that all the .salmon family the world over are distin- 
 guished by having a back adipose fin ? — A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Iluji/ins : 
 Q. The same brood perhaps, but not the same family ? — A. Exactly. 
 
 BijMr. Wifinof : 
 Q. Are oulachons put down in the salmon family ? — A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Have you ever classed the humpback family 1 — A. Yes ; I know theni well. 
 C^. What family? — A. They are salmon — they belong to the same family as 
 quinnat, but they are a different species. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You know the humpback well with hump on back ? — A. Oh, yes— it is a jnale 
 fish only. 
 
 Q. Do not all male tish of the salmon family change very much when they come in 
 from the sea 1 — A. Yes ; very materially. 
 
 Q. And persons not knowing would consider them different fish 1 — A. Yes ; that 
 has been done. I have known persons to make a difference when they were weighing 
 out fish, but the sockeye does not change. I have seen them at Lillooet just as fresh as. 
 when they left the sea. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHEaV COMMISSION. 
 
 309 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Thank you, sir ; the iiiforinfition you have given us is of great 
 intere.st. 
 
 Mr. (Jreen thereupon h'ft the stand. 
 
 The Connnission dei-iih^d to issue a suhpn-na for tl>e attendanee of Mr. W. H. 
 Dempster, of the Si<eena l{iver, at piesent in Victoria, hut about to leave for the Skcena 
 that afternoon at .'» p.m. Tlie sul)j)<i'na was issued and served. 
 
 At l.l.") p.m. the Chairman (U'ciared tiie Connnission adjourned, to meet again at 
 the same j)hiee at 2.. 30 p.m. 
 
 Victoria, tth ^rarch, 1892. 
 
 ; is a male 
 
 ley come in 
 
 Afft'rn 
 
 S>:s; 
 
 oon >ii',s.sn)ii. 
 
 The Commission reasseml)led, and was called to order at 2.30 p.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. Wilmot, presiding ; ^[r. Sherill' xVrmstrong and Secretary Winter. 
 
 Mi-. WILLIA^E H. DEMPSTER, a native of England, V) years in Jhitish 
 Columbia, a resident of Victoria, a salmon canner operating on the Skeena River, was 
 duly swoi-n. 
 
 Bt/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do you desire to submit anything to this Comniission of your own accord? — A. 
 Well, I tlo not know as T have much to submit. 
 
 Q. The Commission is oyten to I'efeive any information you are desirous of giving. 
 — A. Well, I came here to answer any question that may be put to me. 
 
 Q. Where is your fishing limit?— .\. On the Skeena River. 
 
 t^. About GOO miles up the coast ? — A. GOO miles. --' 
 
 Q. Is it a large river? — A. About two and a half miles wide where we do lousiness. 
 I think more water comes down the Eraser than the Skeena. We are i-eally tisliing in 
 an arm of the sea ; the tidt;s rise alxjut 30 miles aliove where we are situated. 
 
 Q. AVhat is the name of your cannery? — A. Tlu; " Windsor" cannery, the farthest 
 up the river. 
 
 Q. And up to the lakes how far is it? -A. 180 miles. 
 
 Q. Is it a free running river — free running all the way— no mill dams in the way 
 — any falls or other obstructions to the ascent tif Hsh ? -A. Nothing of that kind. 
 
 Q. The lakes — are they large and many? A. There are quite a nunil)er : the main 
 lake is 110 miles long, fed by tributary streams. 
 
 Q. Is there a boundary established for the limit of fishing? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where might that be? -A. About three miles above our cannery. 
 
 Q. How wide is the river at that point?— A. 1 should judge about a mile and a 
 half to a mile and three-(]r.arters. 
 
 Q. Are there high tides there where the limit is? — A. About 15 feet ; there are 21 
 feet where we are situated. 
 
 Q. Are there other canneries on that river ? — A. Ther^ n^e seven others, and one 
 in course of erection. 
 
 Q. Is the "Balmoral" one of the syndicate ?— A. \es; and the new cannery 
 l)eing erected is being put up by the North P;icihc Company. The North Pacific Com- 
 pany is the .syndicate. 
 
 (Consulting map.) Q. Then one furthest down on same side of Inlet, what is that ? 
 — A. That is the " Inverness.'' 
 
 Q. Then there are eight canneries altogether on that limit? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are all about the same cai)acity ? — ^A. Yes, about the same. 
 
 Q. What is the average capacity ? — -A. About 20,000 cases — that would be the 
 outside limit. 
 
 Q. What is the end of the Inlet like — does it open directly out to the sea oi- is it 
 shut in by the island ? — A. It is shut in by the island — County Island lies right in, the 
 middle. 
 
T 
 k 
 
 310 
 
 BIARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. How far Up is it from the island to the Injundivry ? -A. About seventeen or 
 eighteen miles. 
 
 i.i. Is fishing carried on tlien wliolly between the island and the boundary or 
 farther out ? A. No; we don't go any farther out. ' 
 
 Q. The outlet from this inlet at the point of the island is how wide ? — A. T .should 
 judge it to be about three oi" four miles — that is each outlet before you reach mainland 
 from the island. 
 
 By Mr. Dempster: 
 
 Q. — ^You are not speaking of Inverness Slough — as one of those islands causes Inver- 
 ness Slough you know - forms a slough. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Do lish come up that slough ?- A. Oh, yes; that .slough is about half a mile 
 wide. 
 
 Q. And the outlets from the sea ? — A. Are about three miles wide. 
 
 Q. Are there any other stieums or rivers running into this inlet below the 
 boundary 1 — A. Well, there is one on which the " Balmoral " canneiy is established — 
 it is small and not a salmoi'. stream at ill. 
 
 Q. What description of nets are usod there ? — A. W^e us the five and three-(|uarter 
 inch mesh. 
 
 ii. All drifc nets— any seines? -A. No seines. 
 
 Q. Is there such a place as Hazelton on the river ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How far is it from the boundary ? — A. 180 miles. It is at the forks of the 
 Skeena. 
 
 Q. How many boats have you there ? — A. Foi-ty. 
 
 Q. Are you all limited to t\)rty or is a certain number given to the river? — A. We 
 get forty each — there are 300 for all the river — 200 for the canners and 100 foi >utside 
 licenses. 
 
 Q. Outside licenses would mean to whom ? — A. Indians — all Indians — -tl e no 
 
 whiteujen there. 
 
 Q. Then 200 are taken by canneries and 100 under Indian names? — A. Well, we 
 pay for them — they won't pay anything. 
 
 Q. All are then properly the canners' licen.ses ? — A. Yes ; the canners' licen.ses. 
 
 Q. Would it interfere with your business if all the 300 were taken out in the names 
 of canners? — A. I don't think so. 
 
 Q. Then of what use is it taking them in the names of Indians ?— A. I don't know. 
 
 (,',. But it is done ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you charge them for licenses? — A. No — we don't charge them^they 
 absolutely refuse to pay licenses at all. They never have on the Skeena. 
 
 Q. Then the .mode of fishing is the same as on the Fraser River and other ri\ers— 
 by use of drift-nets and boats, and drifting is carried out between the b<:tundary and 
 down below the island ? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Fishing equally all down to the island ? — A. Yes ; about e(iually. 
 
 Q. Will you have all the .300 boats out at one time ? — A. ^'es ; we can only fish 
 about ten hours in twenty-four. 
 
 Q. What fish do you generally catch there? — A. Sockeye, but we have spring 
 salmon Jis well— they come in about 1st of ]May. 
 
 Q. W'ere you pi'esent when a Mr. Gieen was giving his evidence l- — A. No, I was not. 
 
 Q. The spring .salmon are larger than sockeye ? — A. They will average about twenty 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you experienced that .spring salmon will be some white and some red? — A. 
 Yes. 
 
 Q. When do the white predominate more ? — A. Iii all seasons about 20 per cent 
 would be white and the balance red. 
 
 Q. Do salmon go up all the length of the Skeena to the lakes? — A. I believe they 
 do. 
 
.. \ 
 
 BBITISH OOI'CMBIA FISilERY COMMISSION. 
 
 811 
 
 r-enteen or 
 
 lurKlary <tr 
 
 L. I should 
 !i mainland 
 
 uses Tnver- 
 
 uvlf a mile 
 
 below the 
 tablished — 
 
 iree-<juurter 
 
 arks of the 
 
 i.?_A. We 
 foi outside 
 
 bl e no 
 
 L. Well, we 
 
 licenses. 
 1 the names 
 
 don't know. 
 
 them — they 
 
 ler n\ers — 
 undary and 
 
 n <»nly fish 
 
 lave spring 
 
 II, I was not. 
 )( )ut twenty 
 
 ne red 1 — A. 
 
 '20 per cent 
 
 Ijelieve they 
 
 Q. And do they ^o into small streams to spawn ? A. I think so. 
 
 Q. In what month ? — A. Tn August and September. 
 
 Q. Do you know them to spawn in October?— A. No, T don't think so — I never 
 was there in October. 
 
 Q. They might spawn at't«'r October, might they ? — A. They might, but they all 
 pass up in July. 
 
 Q. Do all these spring salmon, as is related by many others, die and not return to 
 the sea? — A. I cannot answer that question -great nund)erH of them die I know. 
 
 Q. Do you think any return? — A. I think some do but very f«'W, 
 
 Q. Have you mor seen them ? - A. I have schmi them in September lloating around 
 almost dead, but T do not think they ever get to salt .v(i>er tn do any good. 
 
 Q. Do you think they recover from their piostration ?— A. No, T do not. 
 
 Q. How is the species kept up then 1 — A. Hy the supply — the deposit of spawn 
 every year would keep up the supi)ly. 
 
 Q. Then you think it no use tisli renewing their propagating qualities ?— A. Tt has 
 not been shown that they do die. 
 
 i). lUit if it were shown us some do ? A. Well, I do not think they do- the river 
 is very locky and rapid and tliey get worn out. 
 
 Q. If it were shown that Hsh go up ■'^00, 900, and 1,000 miles what would you say? 
 —A. Well, T think they do that in the Skeena — they go in Habin Lake. 
 
 Q. And your impression is they do not return ? — A. T do not think they return 
 to do any good. 
 
 Q. Ts that the impiession <»f Indians and other inhabitants ? — A. I do not know 
 what their impressions are. 
 
 Q. You catch yf)u say these spiing salmon for canning purposes?- — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. To any extent ? — A. No, they are not very numerous. 
 
 Q. What do you do with white ones ? A. Nothing, we give them to Indians. 
 
 Q. Do they consume all of them? — A. Well, most of them. 
 
 Q. And those they do not ? — A. We salt them — cut the bellies out and salt them, 
 
 ii. What weight would you salt? -A. About seven ])ounds. 
 
 Q. And then the balance out of the twenty pound fish is what ? — A. It is thrown 
 away — there is no demand for it. 
 
 Q. Thrown away as offal is it?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You see no possibility of converting it into a commercial article ? — A. No, we 
 have tried. 
 
 t^. What is the reason ? — A. The colour. 
 
 Q. And they are not saleable as a salt fish ? — A. They would not pay the expense 
 of the barrel and salt. 
 
 Q. Where have you shipped them to ? — A. Canada and the Sandwich Islands and 
 Australia. 
 
 Q. Do you speak of Canada as !)eing a foreign country to this? — A. No, but then 
 we call it always Canada, in the old way. 
 
 Q. Then for your own taste one is as good as another?- -A No, they are not as 
 good — thei-e is very little difference l)ut one is superior to the other — in England the 
 colour is a great objection. 
 
 Q. Yes, I know — I remember in England in '83 the Skeena salmon took the prize 
 over all others. Now, your chief fish is sockeye — when do they come in ? — A. About 
 the 1st of June I think. 
 
 Q. When do they spawn? — A. About the same time as spring salmon ; perhaps a 
 little later, about Septemljer. 
 
 Q. Do any of those return? — A. I ha\e never seen them. 
 
 Q. Could they return without you seeing them ? — A. I suppose they could. 
 
 Q. When do you knock off" work? — A. About the 1st of August. 
 
 Q. And consequently as those fish would not be returning until later you would 
 not see them ? — A. Well, we could see some of them. 
 
 Q. Do you see any dead fish of this kind ? — A. Well, not many ; we do see them. 
 
 Q. Do you see any in a weak state and emaciated ? — A. Yes ; I have seen many of 
 them up the river ; they were just floating along ; they did not seem to have strength 
 to swim down. 
 
1" 
 
 I 
 
 312 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 ::^y 
 
 mi 
 
 Q. What is the avei-age size of sockeye you can? — A. AV)out six pounds. 
 
 Q. Then your fish are smaller than in other rivers ; do you ever get above six 
 pounds ? — A. The average is about six pounds ; we catch them sometimes seven or eight 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. How many cans of fish will you make from each fish? — A. They run from 11 
 to 12 to the case. 
 
 Q. What might be the average numbcM* of your boats' take daily ; in a big run say ? 
 — A. About 250 to the boat, and in a small ordinaiy run about 50. 
 
 Q. An average, vhen, of about 150, taking one year with .another? — A. Aliout that. 
 
 Q. Have you e\er counted up the average of each boat for the season, the gross 
 number?— A. Fnmi 2,000 to :?,000. 
 
 Q. What do you do with ofFal ? — A. Tln-ow it in the river. 
 
 Q. Does it ci-eate any sort of unpleasantness, or is it carried away immediately 1 — 
 A. It is cai-ried away every time ; we have a six knot current that cari'ies everything 
 out to sea. 
 
 Q. Is any lodgment made on land below ? — A. No ; it is an iron-bound coast ; we 
 have no inhabitants except Indians. 
 
 Q. Are any complaints made ? — A. I have never heard of any. 
 
 Q. And there are no white people there to affect ? — A. No ; there never will be ; 
 there is no agricultural or growing country that I know of. 
 
 Q. Should it not produce wealth and inhabitants? — A. It may in time. 
 
 Q. Then oiFal is carried away and causes no injury to anyl)ody? — A. None at all. 
 
 Q. Are you satisfied witii limitation of nets you have in regard to numbers? — A. 
 Yes, sir : [)erf'ectly satisfied. 
 
 Q. What effect would it have if you were lessened in number ? — A. It would make 
 our fish more exjjensive, and curtail our work. You see we can only fish 10 hours in 
 the 24, and only for two and a half months. 
 
 Q. Seines are not used, I tliink you say ? — A. No, sir ; they are not used. 
 
 Q. Do you know the eff'ect of seine fishing compared with drift net fishing ? — A. I 
 don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. AViiat about the close season ? — A. It would suit us all right at present if it 
 was made movable to suit the tides. Now, sometimes when 12 o'clock comes on 
 Saturday the tide is not suitable to go out, and often we have to knock off" at 10 o'clock ; 
 this changes monthly, and we would like the time made to suit the tides ; it would leave 
 36 hours close time just the same. 
 
 Q. Do your Indians fish on Sunday at all ? -A. They will not fish on Sunday. 
 
 Q. You mean the whole 24 hours? A. Till 12 o'clock Sunday night. 
 
 Q. Then the six hours after (5 o'clock on Sunday — they would not work because it 
 is Sunday ? —A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you anything to say al)out an annual close sea.son? — A. No; I have 
 nothing to say about that. 
 
 Q Do you think it advisal)le ? — A. We do not need it up there. 
 
 Q. Jiut for the connnunity at large what would you say? — A. Oh, ha\e one if it 
 affects the connnunity at large. 
 
 Q. If fishermen other than yourselves and Indians apply for licenses would you 
 object to giving them to them ? -A. .No ; we wouhl not. 
 
 Q. Then it would be just to give all residents and British subjects a license if they 
 wanted it ? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What about the transfer of licenses ; do y(ni think it should be done ? — A. No, 
 I think not ; I think they should not be transferal)le. 
 
 Q. But is it not a fact Jiow you get, licenses in Indian names ? -A. They are really 
 our own, licenses ; we pay for them ; the Indians absolutely refused to pay for them. 
 
 Q. Then on the fees of licenses.' A. NVe are perfectly sati.stied on that point. 
 
 Q. Should they be alike throughout the jjrovince or different for yoin- river? — A, 
 I think they should be general throughout the province. 
 
 Q. Have you anything furtiier to sultmit, sir ? — A I cannot think of anything at 
 present. 
 
BRITISH COLUMU[A FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 313 
 
 Is. 
 
 et above six 
 
 jven or eight 
 
 •un from 11 
 
 hig run say ? 
 
 About that. 
 II, the gross 
 
 lediately 1 — 
 I everything 
 
 d coast ; we 
 rev will be ; 
 
 None at all. 
 mber.s ? — A. 
 
 would make 
 10 hours in 
 
 ling?— A. I 
 
 iresent if it 
 k comes on 
 b 10 o'clock ; 
 would leave 
 
 uiiday. 
 
 : because it 
 
 K> ; I have 
 
 e one if it 
 would you 
 Mi.se if they 
 
 ?— A. No, 
 
 Y are I'eally 
 r tlu'in. 
 
 point. 
 
 river? — A. 
 
 nything at 
 
 Q. You have no wants or complaints to make 1 — A. No ; except that one question 
 of close time. I would like to make it movable. 
 
 Q. Is the catch legular with your river — -on and off years? — A. It is pretty 
 regular throughout. We have no periodical failures af all. 
 
 Q. How long has tishing been carried on there,' — A. Fourteen years. Of course, 
 some years we have lighter years than others, but we have no periodical runs like in the 
 Fraser Ki\er. 
 
 Q. Have you humpbacks entering that ri\'er ? — A. Yes ; largely. We cannot help 
 catching them. 
 
 Q. When do they come in? —A. They come in with the sockeyes. 
 
 Q. And both are caught in the net at tlie same time? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And what do you do with them ? — A. We (•an the sockeye, but thr<iw away the 
 humpback mostly. 
 
 Q. Are tliey very numerous ? — A. Yes; very numerous. They injure the fishing 
 very nmch. 
 
 Q. In what respect ? —A. They spoil our nets. Last year they were so plentiful 
 they would sink the nets. 
 
 Q. But lish, nevertheless, would be taken out of the nets? — A. Yes; they were 
 fastened in the net. 
 
 Q. Would the (juantity caught in the net per day be equal to the sockeye? — A. 
 Oh, ten times over. We would probably catch twenty or tliirty sockeye and two or 
 three hundred humpbacks. 
 
 Q. And two or three hundred humpljacks are sacrificed to twenty sockeye? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of what means coiUd be instituted to pre\ent the destruction 
 of such innnense quantities of tish ? — -A. We would like to see them all ilestroyed. 
 
 Q. And this practice has been going on of destroying the luuiipbacks. Are they 
 not diminished? — A. Well, there are siime years when the humpbacks do not come in 
 such nundjers, and sometimc^s we do not see them at all. 
 
 Q. Are hunq)backs lai-ger than sockeyes I — ^A. No ; they ai-e a little smaller. 
 
 Q. AVlien tlu^y come in from sea, are there hunq^s on the tish ? — A. N(» ; it comes 
 o)\ afterwards. 
 
 Q. Humps are on male iish only ? -A. < )h, male only. 
 
 Q. Is there another run aftei- sockeyes and lunnpbacks ? — A. Yes; cohoes. We 
 never tish them. They are inferior to sockeyt>s. 
 
 Q. Are they inferior for dom(;stic use ? — A. Yes ; they are infei'ior tish in e\ery case. 
 
 (^. What is the colour of the flesh ? — A. A light pink. 
 
 Q. Do they sj)a\vn about the same time as sockeye ! — A. A little later. 
 
 Q. Then the only valuable fish, or the more valuable fish, is altogether a sockeye? 
 You depend, as a canner, upon them for the bulk of your traflic ? -A. Yes ; that is the 
 only one will pay. 
 
 <.^. .Vi-e there any marks on the sockeye, between the male and female, so you can 
 tell them ? -A. \o ; it is later on in the season when we can tell them. 
 
 Q. By what distinguishing mark ! — A. There is a hook on the lower jaw of the male. 
 
 Q. Have you ever fished anywhere else but in British Columbia ? — A. 1 have fished 
 on the River Bestigt)uche. 
 
 Q. Is there any dillerence between spriiv;; salmon and iiestigouche salmon in size, 
 (|uality or appearance ?— A. Skeena salmon ar. much larger: the <pialities are about 
 the same. 
 
 t^. And what is the avei-age of 8keena salmon ! -A. Twenty pounds. 
 
 Q. And is not the avei-age in the Uestigouclieat the early part of the season twenty 
 pounds ? -A. No ; not in the early part of the se;i,s)n. 
 
 Q. I may say I have fished Kestigouche salmon myself and have averaged twenty- 
 three pounds. — A. Yes, but you fished with a tly did you not ? 
 
 Q. Oh, yes; 1 know the ily gets the big fish. May 1 ask have you trieU to catch 
 tish in your river with the fly ? — ^A. Yes, but it has not been successful. 
 
 <j. The Restigouche only lately has been used for fly fishing now it brings in ten, 
 twenty, and thirty thousand dollars for tly fishing yearly -you should try and encourage 
 

 314 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 this here — I simply mention this to show that the salmon here are identical with salmon 
 elsewhere. If the Americans were aware that you could catch salmon here with a fly 
 they would come and you would do well with them. — A. They have plenty of salmon 
 rivers of their own— the Columbia River is a better salmon river than ours. 
 
 Q. But is not the Columbia River nniddy from the melting snows, etc., that come 
 down from the mountains 1 — A. Well, our Skeena rises in the same way. 
 
 Q. Yes, but your waters are clear are they not ? — A. Yes, they are. 
 
 Q. Is there any deep sea fishing in the neighbourhood of the Skeena River — are 
 cod or halibut taken there? -A. No, not near the Skeena — there are good banks near 
 the Skeena but it is not worked -it is only prospected as yet — the Indians get any 
 quantity of halibut, in the vicinity of the estuary. 
 
 Q. And then the black cod ? — A. Well, they are near the Queen Charlotte Islands. 
 
 Q. And the halibut -it has only lately been found out ? — ^A. Well, the Indians 
 have Ijeen fishing there for many years. 
 
 Q. Then there may be a great source of wealth near there for working up — what 
 other fishes have you there ? — A. There is the dog-fish valuable for its oil. 
 
 Q. Could not oflal be used up for the same purpose 1 — A. Well, I don't think it 
 would pay. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Is there an oil factory up there 1 — A. I am interested in one myself. 
 
 Q. What becomes of the refuse from dog-fish oil 1 — A. Well, there is very little — 
 the oil is tried out l)y steam and the refuse is thrown out. 
 
 Q. How long has it been working 1 — A. Last year was the first. 
 
 Q. Did you put up much oil ? — A. 23,000 gallons. 
 
 Q. Did you think in the commencement of the industry that would be profitable ? 
 —A. I think so. 
 
 Q. What is the value of dog-fish oil ? — A. 45 cents a gallon. 
 
 Q. Is the establishment carried on by canners or a company of others ? — A. A com- 
 pany of their own. 
 
 Q. Where from ? — A. Victoria. 
 
 Q. Do you use any other fish except dog-fish ? — A 
 sometimes. 
 
 We use small ground shark 
 
 % J/r. Wilnint : 
 
 Q. Is oulachon caught there ? — A. Yes, quite extensively. 
 
 Q. Are herring plentiful along the coast 1 — A. Yes, I ihink they are. 
 
 Q. Has any attempt been made to utilize herring as an article of connuerce ? — A. 
 Not just yet. 
 
 Q. Do you think as time goes on, herring might be sufiiciently numerous to make it 
 profitable ? — A. Well, they will not compare with Atlantic herring — they are smaller 
 fish. 
 
 Q. Mackerel is not known then ? -A. No. 
 
 Q. AVould you consitler the introduction of mackerel a good thing? — A. I think it 
 would if it could be successfully introduced. 
 
 Q. Have you any oysters there ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Any loljsters / — A. No; none. 
 
 Q. If oysters were introduced here and did well, would it be an addition to the 
 fishery wealth ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Dkmp.steh. — I may say that dog-fish oil is worth 45 cents in cans, but only .35 
 cents in barrels. 
 
 JJi/ Mr. Wifiiiot : 
 
 Q. Have you ever taken any shad in your waters ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Do you know they have been introduced in Pacific waters? — A. I have heard so. 
 
 Q. Shad have also been caught at the moutii of the Fraser River. I may Jiientiou 
 
 that I am asking all these questions because this Commission is not only for dealing 
 
with salmon 
 re with a fly 
 ty of salmon 
 
 3., that come 
 
 L River — are 
 I banks near 
 ians get any 
 
 otte Islands, 
 the Indians 
 
 ig up — what 
 
 )n't think it 
 
 very little — 
 
 B profitable 1 
 —A. A corn- 
 round shark 
 
 merce ? — A. 
 
 s to make it 
 are smaller 
 
 . I think it 
 
 ition to the 
 but only 35 
 
 ve heard so. 
 lay mention 
 for dealing 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 315 
 
 with the canners' matters, but also for the purpose of finding out all information bear- 
 ing on the question of the fisheries, etc., etc. Then this oil factory has proved success- 
 ful so far ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you propose continuing operations with the dog-fish and ground shark ?— 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How far is it from your establishment 1 — A. About GO miles. It is on Queen 
 Charlotte Islands. 
 
 Q. My object in asking these questions is that if dog-fish can be profitably con- 
 verted into oil, why could not offal be converted into oil and made a profitable article of 
 commerce? — A. You must remember the dog fish oil is much superior to salmon oil. 
 
 Q. Have you seen salmon oil '? — A. Yes ; we manufactured it at our cannery. We 
 tried it, but it don't pay. 
 
 Q. Do you think then all this ofFal thrown away could be converted into oil 1 — A. 
 I suppose it could. 
 
 Q. Are humpback salmon caught more numerously than dog-fish ? — A. Oh, yes ; 
 (log-fish are caught with hook and line, and humpback with nets. 
 
 Q. What is the size of your dog-fish ?— A. I should judge they would weigh 7 or 8 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. Then they are not larger than humpbacks ? — A. The livers are almost all oil. 
 About two-thirds comes out of the liver and one-third from the rest of the body. 
 
 Q. In your trials in regard to salmon oil, did you try tlie humpback at all 1 — ^A. 
 Xo ; not at all. 
 
 Q. Are not humpbacks a fat fish ? — -A. No ; not as fat as sockeye. 
 
 Q. But there would be oil in them 1 — A. Oh, yes ; but it is floubtful if they would 
 pay. 
 
 Q. The reason I ask these questions is with the view of the department, if possible, 
 suggesting the use of these humpbacks that are all now thrown away, and they may be 
 converted into a useful article of commerce. Is there anything further, sir, you would 
 wish to say '? — A. No ; nothing further. 
 
 Mr. JAMES L. EAYINIOND, a native of England, :28 years in British Columbia, 
 an accountant and resident of Victoria, was duly sworn. 
 
 A. Well, I was asked so come here to answer 
 I was manager of the oil factory for- I wo years situated where the city 
 
 we hiui 
 
 all tlie herrings 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What do you wish to submit? 
 any questions, 
 (if Vancouver is now 
 
 Q. What did you convert into oil there? — A. Herrings. 
 
 Q. You tried any other description of material? — A. No; 
 we could use. 
 
 Q. Were herrings very numerous? — A. They were at that time. 
 
 Q. What was the result? —A. We lost .^40,000 in two years and then shut it up. 
 
 Q. And for what reason ; was it the markets ? — A. It was due to the entire in- 
 aljility to dry the scrap. 
 
 Q. You take the oil off and then the scrap is what is left ? — A. Yis ; but we could 
 not make any use of it ; we could not dry it. 
 
 Q. I notice from a former- witness that the refuse was very little? — A. That was 
 from dog-fish, but then they tiy it out in a very diflerent numner. 
 
 Q. Could you not do the same? — A. No, not with herrings ; they would have all 
 gone to pulp. 
 
 Q. Do you know of oil factoi-ies on the Atlantic ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You know of ^Menhaden ? — A. Yes ; but they run in summer time and the 
 Scrap is dried like soil, while we ran in the winter time and it was raining all the time. 
 
 Q. How about the oil? — A. There was no nuirket for it in this country and it had 
 to be shipped to England. 
 
316 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 j.. ,i 
 
 Q. Do not other industries have to ship their products to England, the cann*irs, 
 for instance ? — A. Yes, but sahnon tins do not leak ; about "20 per ?ent of ours leaked 
 out ; it has to go through the tropics twice ; it also has the effect of shrinking the 
 bari'els. 
 
 Q. Well, generally speaking, tiie trade coal oil is tiie most penetrating in the 
 world, yet it is shipped all over? — A. Yes ; but you can only get soft wood barrels in 
 this country. 
 
 Q. Then your experiment was unprofitable ? — A. Unjirotitable ; if we (;ould have 
 dried the fertilizer it would have been all right. 
 
 Q. Has the effects of the oil factory's operations driven away herring 1 — A. Well, 
 I don't know ; think it is steamers and pollution (poijulation) (?) that has done that ; 
 it had no effect while I was there whatever. 
 
 Q. Then you attribute the absence of herring in the Sound to steam-boats and 
 people? A. Y^es ; the traHic ; when we were there theie were plenty of fish iii the 
 harbour ; we failed the first year, and then an expert was sent out from the East and 
 he put in a drier that he saitl would do but it utterly failed. I am talking of the scrap 
 — he came out — a man named Demesque, and he put in an artificial drier, but it 
 would not do ; if it is not dry in twenty-four hours it commences to foment and you 
 can do nothing with it at all. 
 
 Q. \\'ell, the Ontario AgricultunU Department says it can be made into a good 
 thing? Have you read the recent article in the Colonist on the matter? — A. I have 
 seen something about it, but you cannot dry it. 
 
 Q. But they say it can be worked up? — A. Oh, you can dry one ton of it all right 
 in a day, but when you have ten tons to work up in a day you cannot do it. 
 
 Q. Well, now this is what Professor James says (Victoria Cohnilst, 20th Februaiy, 
 1892). These are his conclusions : — 
 
 " Fi'om the consideration of the whole (|uestion, I am of the opinion that the 
 " manufactui'e of tluj infuse into fertilizer is strongly to be reconnnended, because-^ 
 
 " 1st. It will thus utilize ii bye-product that otherwise is a total loss. 
 
 " 2nd. It will prevent the waters from being contamina,ted. 
 
 " .'{rd. Its pi'oper management must tend towards a moie healthful surrounding. 
 
 " 4th. Its return to the soils of the farm will partly off-set the waste of our cities 
 " by sewerage carried to the lakes and rivers. 
 
 " oth. If j)ro})erly handled it will pay well. 
 
 " From the gi-eat importance of this (piestion to the health of the community, the 
 " welfare tif the fishing industry anil the progress of agriculture, I have endeavdui'ed to 
 " reply at this length." 
 
 It is also stated that the value of this guano in Ontario is about 834 a ton. — A. 
 Well, I l)eg to difler from that entirely ; I think we got $10 a ton for it, but we could 
 not make it a success. We had to take tons of it out into English Bay to get rid of it ; 
 we built a scow with a false bottom and had to take it out there. 
 
 Q. Well, we have heard that the offal tliat was thrown in hafl prevented hei'i'ing 
 from going in? — A. I may say we got £7 lUs. for some \\v. sent to England, but it all 
 depends on the quantity of annnonia and phosphates in it. We used to boil the fish in 
 an open tank and tlien subject tliem to hydraulic pressure and if they did not dry in 24 
 hours, the auamonia all ran off and the fertilizer was destroyed. 
 
 Q. And you then say the trial of making fertilizer from herring was unsuccessful? — 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Are you prepared to say the same thing would occur if oil and fertilizer were 
 made from oifal ? — A. Well, I think the expenses of taking it to the factory would 
 destroy ail chance of profit. \Ve got our fish for next to nothing. They cost us about 
 75 cents a tm\ on the wharf. 
 
 <,^). But if this offal was tlelivered to you ? -A. Well, someliody must pay for it. I 
 do not think it would be successful. If the herring get the least bit bail the oil is 
 spoilt and offal woidd soon go bad in the same way. 
 
 Q. Then is oil niiiile instantly from dog-fish? — A. 
 hours. 
 
 Oh, no ; it of course takes a few 
 
BRITISH COLUMBfA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 317 
 
 Q. Do you wish to suljiuit any othei- nicitters ? — A. No ; that is tht; only matter 
 with whieh I am actjuainttHl. 
 
 The Chairman. — We are muih obliged to you, sir. 
 
 f our cities 
 
 Jikes a few 
 
 Mr. WILLTA^I HENRY LOMAS, a native of Enj^'land, resident in British Colum- 
 bia for 29 years, a resident of Cowichan, an Indian Aycnt of the Federal GovernmT'nt, 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 Before proceeding with this witness, the question arose upon a (|uery of J. H. Todd 
 and others present, as to whether or not ^fr. Ashdown (ireen, a ])rovious witness, had 
 been sworn prior to his giving evidence. Several of the audience contended that he had 
 not, although the Secretary on being appealed to and turning back to his notes of Mr. 
 Green's testimony, f(»und that he was on record as ha\ing l>een duly sworn still, in 
 view of the doubt entertained by some, the Chairman gave instructions for the recall f»f 
 Mr. Green on the following day to settle the point in (piestion. 
 
 By Mr. Wilinot (to Mr. Loinus) : 
 
 Q. What do you wish to submit to this Board ? — A. I would like to say a few 
 words in regard to the oyster fishery, but before doing so. 1 would like to say something 
 of Cowichan River omitted by Mr. (ireen, through, I l)elieve, want of knowledge of the 
 river. Some four or five years ago the .sockeye were put in the river two years running, 
 some four or fiv(> millions were put in and ceitain numbers have returned ; they go to 
 the head of Cowichan River. 
 
 Q. How long ago is that, sir? — A. About four or five years. Thev were never 
 known there before, but now they are in small quantities, hundreds of them but not 
 near so many as you see of other fish. 
 
 Q. Then you consider that the result of planting them there artificially has this 
 effect'! — A. Yes; and I may say they are found several miles uf) river beyond their 
 spawning ground. 
 
 Q. And thus I suppose thes.^ little fellows have g<tn(> ofi' hunting homes f(»i' them- 
 selves. — A. They went down first, sir, —of course they went down. 
 
 Q. And were any quinnat put in the river?- -A. No ; not at all. 
 
 Q. And then you think it sufficient proof that artificial breeding is successful — 
 that it is proof of the hatcheiy success ?— A. Oh, certainly — I may say the Indians 
 were so surprised at seeing them there they bi'ought the first one to me. 
 
 Q. What size was it ? — A. Oh, a five pound one. 
 
 Q. Have you anything else to say on this matter ? A. Well, Mv. (Jreen spoke of 
 fish returning, but I believe no salmon return except the steel-head, and that I tiiink is 
 more of a trout. 
 
 Q. You are practically accpuvinted with the cliai-acter of the steel-head ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would you give us a description ? — A. They grow quite as large as (juinnat and 
 run in December, about Christmas time — say from end of November to January — it 
 (le[)ends a great deal on the state of the river. The Cowichan is so low that large fish 
 cannot run up — the steel-head ne\cv come into the bay until the other fish have 
 gone up — they wait until dog-fish and cohoes have gon«>, and then after about a week 
 or two they go up too. 
 
 Q. Why are they called " steel-heads " ? — A. It is the fishermen's name for them — 
 Indians have another name altogether. 
 
 Q. And they are about the same as spring salmon ? — A. Yes; very similar when 
 they come in — when they go back they are long and narrow — they lie in the river all 
 sunnner and then go out in the fall. I 
 
 Q. They come in when you say ? -A. About December. 
 
 Q. And what is the time when they spawn ? — A. I should say about March, but 
 you can find them in a great many of the pools all through the summer. 
 
 Q. Are they salmon or trout? -A. Well, Mr Green calls them trout. 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMOT. — Is Mr. Ewen here ? Mr. Ewen. — Ye.s. 
 
318 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES, 
 
 Q. May I ask you, Mr. Ewen, if the salmon we saw in New Westminster the other 
 day on the slabs at the niai-ket — were they steel-heads ? — Yes. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — They are identical to my eyes with Atlantic salmon. 
 
 ]VIr. LoMAS. — They will take a fly freely. 
 
 INIr. Wii.MOT. ~ -Well, it is a peculiarity, certainly, I must say. 
 
 Mr. PjWKN. — I may state that when they are seen in the Fraser River — when they 
 are in good condition — it is from end of July and in August and September — the next 
 year they scarcely got down in condition and you are liable to get them in all stages 
 throughout the year. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, these we saw were so regular in .symmetry and so bright in colour that I 
 thought they were exactly lik(i the Atlantic salmon — we had «)ne sent to the hotel and 
 had it for dinner, but it was a very poor Hsh — not at all nice — and yet its appearance 
 was very prepossessing — it may of ct)urse have been in the cooking, but some gentlemen 
 sitting at the table with me said " what a poor ordinary Hsh." Then the steel-head you 
 do not consider the true v'llmon ? — A. No — I do not think them true salmon. 
 
 Q. But they return ?— A. Yes ; in full force. 
 
 Q. And other fish all die 1 — A. Yes ; all die — I am perfectly certain that cohoes 
 and dog-fish never return- -some of the spring salmon may. 
 
 Q. Did you say you siiw S(mie sockeye return? — -A. I saw soi.ie up at Cowichan 
 Lake, but I could not say about them returning. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. AnnslroH!/ . 
 
 Q. How far is it from tie lake to the i-iver ? — A. The river is about 23 or 24 miles 
 long, and the lake is about the same length ; they were planted in a little stream off' the 
 lake ; the ti'out also spawn theie, but they do not spawn until IVIarch. 
 
 7?y ^^fr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Now, on the subject of the oyster? — A. Well, I wish to say for the last five oi- 
 six years I have been writing to the dtpartment, asking them to make some provi'-ioii 
 for protecting the oysters. At Oyster Harbour there is a great many oysters, and they 
 have been fished very much. A man there has no title to any place, and fishing goes 
 on every month in the year. 
 
 Q. And you think oysters were very plentiful there 1 — A. Yes ; and many beds are 
 now depleted. 
 
 Q. And these efl'ects have been brought about by over-fi.shing ? — A. Yes; that is 
 the effect with regard to oysters. 
 
 Q. A/id would it not apply to any other fish ? — A. Yes ; I suppose it would. The 
 oysters are taken along shore to be cleaned ; they scrape all the spat ofTand let it lie on 
 siiore, that should haxe been left on the beds. I sent a bag of them to the department 
 to show how they were being destroyed. 
 
 Q. Then you thii\k there should be a protective sea.son for oysters ? — A. Yes ; there 
 should be. 
 
 Q. And who wt»uld that effect ? — A. A few whitemen and Indians. 
 
 Q. And with the desire to enforce a close season and judicious regulations the Gov- 
 ernment is brought directly in contact with those who carry on thai vork ? — A. Oh, no ; 
 I do not see it that way. Every one who is interested in the oyster fishery wants to see 
 it protected and im})roved. 
 
 Q. And are native oysters in much demand ? — A. Oh, yes ; it is considered a very 
 fine oyster. 
 
 Q. Tiie present mode in the United Wtates and Canada is to give persons licensed 
 areas. — A. I may say that a few years ago a jmmphlet and circular was sent to us and 
 was signed extensively, and the Government was asked to lease areas, etc., but no reply 
 has been received. 
 
 Q. Who was the prominent man in sending it? — A. Mr. Connolly ; it came directly 
 from the department. 
 
ister tlie other 
 
 r — when they 
 )er — the next 
 Li in all stages 
 
 colour that I 
 the hotel and 
 :s appearance 
 me gentlemen 
 iteel-head j'ou 
 ion. 
 
 L that echoes 
 
 at Cowichan 
 
 13 or 24 miles 
 stream oti" the 
 
 16 last five ov 
 
 me provision 
 
 ers, and they 
 
 fishing goes 
 
 lany beds are 
 
 Yes ; that is 
 
 would. The 
 
 1 let it lie on 
 
 departmei\t 
 
 . Yes ; there 
 
 ions the Gov- 
 -A. Oh, no ; 
 
 wants to .see 
 
 dered a very 
 
 sons licensed 
 it to us and 
 but no reply 
 
 ame directly 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FIBHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 319 
 
 Bi/ Mr. A rmstrong : 
 
 Q. Then you want the Government to sui'vey the beds and let them to persons to 
 cultivate? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the oyster is a good article of food, is it / — A. Yes ; it is a very good 
 oyster. 
 
 Q. Well, sir, this matter will be recorded on the minute:* and brought forward, and 
 I think the matter will not be allowed to rest entirely. — A. There is another matter, 
 Mr. Wilmot : these small fish, the Hounders and smelt: no regai-d seems to be paid to 
 them at all. The men who fish for them do not have to get any license or any tiling. In 
 fishing for these small fish they invariably drag their nets on slioi'e, and great numbers 
 of little fish are left there to (lie. That matter has been brought to the notice of the 
 Government by the harbour master of \^ictoria, but nothing seems to have been done. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. AVell, but I do not understand that. The regulations distinctly say ; " Fishing 
 by means of nets or other ajiparatus, without leases or licenses from the jNIinister of 
 Marine and Fisheries, under the provisions of Chap. [)'), Revised Statutes of Canada, 
 and Section 4 thereof, is prohibited in the j)rovince of IJiitish Columbia." — A. IJut these 
 men have applied for licenses from time to time, and replies have been received that no 
 licenses wei-e recjuired except for fishing foi- salmon. 
 
 Q. Are you agent of the department also .' — A. Yes, T am. I could get yf)U jilenty 
 of letters on this matter and giving these answers. I am sure there are plenty of men 
 who would be willing to pay double the license fee if they could get a license to fish for 
 the whitefish, Hounders, etc. 
 
 Q. What kind of mesh do they use ? — A. They use a small mesh dragging on the 
 bottom. 
 
 Q. Well it is considered in the department that it was extremely injurious to use 
 these small meshed nets as they were considered to destroy the small salmon and other 
 young fish that may come along ; tlie duty of an ofticer who saw these nets fishing 
 would be to seize them, liecause it is contrary to law, but an officer has Vjrought it to the 
 notice of the department and it is now under consideration. And so you think this 
 fishing for small fish is injurious 1 — A. Yes ; because the small fish are left on the shoie. 
 
 Q. What kinds of fish would betaken out to supply the market? — A, Oh, any 
 fish ; unless those little ones of an inch and an inch and a half long. 
 
 Q. Then the regulation of the mesh would settle matters would it not ? — A. No ; 
 you could not catch smelt or herring with such small mesh. 
 
 Q. How would you prevent the destruction of these small fish, then ? — A. Not 
 allow them to drag them on shore. 
 
 Q. And the fish that are larger could lie taken out before they come in shore ? — A. 
 Yes. 
 
 i). What sized mesh would allow (tf the escape of these smaller fish ? — A. The fish that 
 T allude to would escape from almost any mesh, but it is tiie dragging them ashore that 
 causes injury. 
 
 Q. Do they get gilled in these nets ? A. Yes ; but not extensively. 
 
 Q. I think that is the same experience in seine fishing, they run towards the shore 
 and thus get drawn in the net, that is the experience is it not ? — A. Yes. Now, a 
 gentleman was saying the herring had left Vancouver. Now, herring will leave a place 
 and go away for some time, and it is not on account of the steam-boats, for I was in 
 Nanaimo Harbour and there weie a great number of them and perhaps in a year or 
 two there may be no herring in Nanaimo and they may be in Cowichan. Places where 
 the Indians have been in the habit of .",oing they find none at all. 
 
 Q. They are very erratic then, i presume, in these waters. Regarding oysters, 
 was it suggested that spat from the Atlantic should be sent over?- A. No ; they con- 
 sidered these native oysters were {juite as good if cultivated. Some persons havr; tried 
 it by taking them and putting them at the mouths of streams, etc., and have done very 
 well. 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to add, ^Fr. Lomas ? — A. Oh, I don't think so. 
 
320 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 il^ 
 
 I 
 
 Q. Have you anything to submit in regard to any other of your fisheries ? — A. 
 No ; I would simply suggest that the improvement of the oyster fishery he attended to 
 and that persons whi> fish on the eoast should have licenses to dcj so and not b<! allowed 
 to drag the nets ashore. 
 
 (}. Have you lolisters here ? — ^A. No. 
 
 Q. Crabs? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Numerous ,' A. Yes ; but there is not any great demand for them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on the Atlantic coast? A. No. 
 
 Q. A project is on foot to introduce the lobster here, and I merely mention it so, 
 that if y<ju had been on the Atlantic coast you might wish to give us some information 
 on it ? These small fish yim speak of what are they ?-- A, Some smelt and little fish 
 like sardines — the smelt is about the same size on the east coast, but the herring over 
 near Behring Sea are reported to be ([uite as large as Scotch hei-i'ing. 
 
 (.}. But there is ncj export trade in herring ? -A. No; there is quite a deuumd for 
 the small species- flounders and soles. 
 
 Q. Do oulachon frequent this coast?- A. No- not in any (juantities. 
 
 Q. Would not these small fish be young herring ? A. Oh, yes ; some are young of 
 trout- some of herring — some of salmon. 
 
 Q. And it is very destructive to drag up these nets on the beach ? A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. I nuiy say that vas the opinion in the department after the receipt of letters 
 from yourself and the inspector- that it was most dangerous to allow these nets to be 
 dragged on shore.— A. I having nothing further to say, gentlemen. 
 
 Mr. J. H. ToDD.^ — I would like to ask permission to make a further statement as 
 evidence before the Comnnssion adjourns. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTHOXfi. — Oh, yes ; we have nothing else better to do. 
 
 Mr. Toui> (indignantly). — Oh, I dont want to say anything — I think it (juite a 
 slur to say you have nothing better to do. 
 
 ^[r. AiiMSTRONd. — Oh, no ; I assure you, Mr. Todd, I did not mean anything of 
 the like at all — why you Victoria jicople are awfully sensitive — T am sure I meant no 
 slur whatever. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — What did you wish to represent, Mr. Todd? 
 
 yiv. Todd. — What T wanted to say was simply about the offal. There is an im- 
 pression among many people that this ofial can be used profitably now, I just want to 
 say that if some of these experts will come hei-e and manufactui-e this stuff up, we vill 
 be glad to have him and we will even give him a bonus to come and take it away an,' 
 work it. 
 
 3Ir. RoiiEUT Wakd. T would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, if your Board will receive 
 second evidence from any witness who has once been heard ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Well, I may say, Mr. ^^'ard, that although the rule was that no 
 second evidence would be taken, still, if Mr. Ward, or any other gentleman came for- 
 ward and desired to give evidence I have no doubt my brother Commissioners would be 
 quite willing to heai- anything they have to say. 
 
 At 4.45 p. m. the Chairman declared the Conniiission adjourned — to meet again at 
 the same place at 10 a. m., r)th March, 1892. 
 
ilieiics ? — A. 
 )itt ended to 
 t be allowed 
 
 3ntion it so, 
 infofiiiiitiou 
 d little lish 
 
 demand for 
 
 ire young of 
 
 Oh, yes. 
 it of letters 
 '6 nets to be 
 
 itatement as 
 
 c it (juite a 
 
 mything of 
 meant no 
 
 e IS an im- 
 
 ust want to 
 
 up, we 'vill 
 
 t away an,' 
 
 will receive 
 
 t'as that no 
 n came for- 
 rs would be 
 
 set again at 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHER ^' OOMUISSION. 
 
 321 
 
 A £CTORiA, B.C., nth March, 1872. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Coramission assembled for the hearing of evidence in the Board of Trade Rooms 
 at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. Wilmot, Chairman ; Hon. D. W. Higgins, Mr. Sheriff Armstrong 
 and Mr. Secretary Winter. 
 
 After calling the Coramission to order, the chairman read the following communica- 
 tion wliich he had received from Mr. W. H. Lomas, Indian Agent at Cowichan, in 
 reference to the protection of oysters in British Columbia : 
 
 Orikntal Hotel, 
 
 Victoria, B.C., 5th March, 1892. 
 
 Dear Mr. Wilmot : — Enclosed you will find copies of the lettevs you asked for. 
 Trusting they may give you information on the oyster subject likely to be acted on. 
 
 I am, dear sir, yours truly, 
 
 (Signed) W. H. LOMAS. 
 S. Wilmot, Esq. 
 
 The enclosures were then read by the Secretary as follows : 
 
 COWICIIAN AOENOY, 
 
 Indian Office, Quamichan, B.C., 27th February, 1892. 
 
 Sir, — Referring to your letter of the 15th inst., enclosing copy of report from Mr. 
 Inspector McNab, to the Deputy Minister of Fisheries, "complaining of manner in which 
 oyster beds in this province are worked by the Indians." 
 
 I have the honour to state that during the last six or seven years I have repeatedly 
 called the attention of the Fishery Department to the necessity of making some regula- 
 tion with regard to the gathering of oysters, especially in Oyster Flarbour, in which place 
 the largest beds exist. 
 
 In the year 1888, I wrote to the late JNIr. Inspector Mo .vat, and at the same 
 time forwarded him by parcel post, a sample of oysters as they are being shipped to 
 market (not by Indians, but by the very white men who are now complaining of the action 
 of Indians.) In the spring of last year, a printed form of petition which I received from 
 the Fishery Department, was signed by nearly every land owner in the neighbourhoofl 
 asking that the Government put a stop to oyster gathering for a few years and take 
 steps to restock the beds. I enclose a few extracts fi'om letters written on the subject, 
 and have the honour to be, sir, 
 
 Your obedient servint. 
 
 (Signed) W. H. LOMAS, Indian Agent. 
 
 Quamichan, B.C., 11th Dec, 1888. 
 
 SiBj — I have the honour to forward you by parcel post a sample of the oysters 
 being shipped to market, by which you will see that the oysters are being run out. 
 
 It is of little use telling me I ought to prosecute any one guilty of violation of the 
 Act, when in the next paragraph you say that the department has made no regulations 
 for oyster fishing in this proviace. 
 
 I am informed that about $1,000 worth of oysters have been shipped from Oyster 
 Harbour during the last twelve months, and this, as I have before informed you, goes 
 on during every month without regard to the breeding season, and without any attempt 
 to cultivate theai. I watched the operation last week, and find the oysters of any age 
 carried ashore f nd there trimmed for market, instead of being divided over the water 
 and the yearlings and spat dropped back into the water to grow. 
 
 10c— 21 
 
T 
 
 322 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 ■H^^Wf"" ' m 
 
 r 
 
 Parties gather wherever they choose, and therefore have no interest in the improve- 
 ment of any particuhir ground, and the result will be that in a year or two this industry 
 and source of food will be entirely destroyed. 
 
 Trusting that you may see the necessity of having suitable regulations made to 
 apply to this province. 
 
 I have the honour to be, sir, 
 
 Your obedient servant, 
 (Signed) W. H. LOMAS, 
 
 FwJiery Guardian. 
 Tiios. MowAT, Es(i., 
 
 Inspector of Fisherie.s, New Westminster. 
 
 QuAMiCHAN, B.C., 9th Dec, 1890. 
 
 Sir, — Referring to your letter of the Oth inst., just received, I have the honour to 
 report that the destruction of small fish complained of by Capt. Clai-ke, harbour master, 
 Victoria, is not only going on in Victoria, but also in other places. I have several 
 times called the attention of the department to this fact, and al.so the destruction (.>f the 
 oyster beds ; but the only notice taken of my reports has been to make regulations with 
 regard to salmon and ti'out, which it is almost impossible to carry out. 
 
 I would respectfully refer you to my letters of 5th of January, 1889, and 17th 
 January, 1889. 
 
 I have the honoui- to be, sir. 
 
 Your obedient .servant, 
 (Signed) W. H. LOMAS, 
 
 Fishery (J nardian, 
 Tiios. Mowat, Esq., 
 
 Inspector of Fisheries, New Westminster. 
 
 QuAMiCHAN, B.C., 17th Feb., 1891. 
 
 Sir, — I have the honour to infonn you that as soon as possible after the receipt of 
 your connnunication of the 28th ultimo, I visited Oyster Harbour, and met the only two 
 white men fishing there (Mr. D. Page and Mr. John Brenton), Messrs. Brown and Isoni 
 having left the neighbourhood, may be considered as having withdrawn their application 
 for oyster fishing licenses. 
 
 IMessrs. Brenton and Page say they are not able to get half the (juantity of oysters 
 this year that that they did last year, and that the beds are nearly run out. 
 
 When ai>plication was first made to you for licen.ses, a kind of mutual agreement 
 was made between these two men and the Indians, and each piece applied for was staked 
 off in my presence ; but, on recent visit, I found both Mr. Page and Mr. Brenton gather- 
 ing oysters from that portion of the harbour applied for by the Indians, and Mi\ Page's 
 statement that he has planted oysters for the last five years does not mean that he has 
 cultivated them, but taken them from the front of the Indian reserve and planted them 
 near his own land. 
 
 Messrs. Brenton and Page wish me to say that they agree with the clauses of the 
 petition, but do not think that they are justified in signing it without knowing what the 
 regulations will be, and whether the department will be willing to take the matter in 
 hand at once. 
 
 Should you think it advisable, I will circulate the petition in the neighbourhood of 
 Oyster Harbour, and I feel sure that nearly every person interested will sign it, as all 
 regret to see the state to which these once productive beds have been allowed to get. 
 
 Messrs. Brenton and Page would gladly sign it I believe, if they were assured that 
 they would have the prior right to a lease fronting their property. 
 
 I have spoken also to the Indians and they a ;e agreeable to the department taking 
 the matter in hand, but think they ought to havu some portion of the harbour set apart 
 to them when the proposed restriction is taken oflF. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 323 
 
 the improve- 
 this industry 
 
 )ns made to 
 
 tardian. 
 
 With regard to the standing of the parties named, I may say they both live with 
 Indian women, and I do not tliink either of them would go to the expense of having the 
 beds they apply for surveyed, let alone spending anything beyond their own time culti- 
 vating oysters. The harbour is about Hve miles long by alxtut three-(juarters of a mile 
 wide. Trusting the department may see tit to restock these beds and make the neces- 
 sary regulations for the better protection of oysters, 
 
 I have the honour to be, sir, your obedient servant, 
 
 (Sgd.) W. H. LOMAS, 
 
 Fishery Guardian, 
 Thos. Mow at, Esq.. 
 
 Fishery Inspector, New Westminster. 
 
 3., 1890. 
 
 lie honour to 
 fbour master, 
 have several 
 uction of the 
 ulations with 
 
 i9, and 17th 
 
 aardian. 
 
 b., 1891. 
 
 the receipt of 
 
 the only two 
 
 >wn and Isom 
 
 ir application 
 
 .ity of oysters 
 
 agreement 
 
 al 
 
 or was staked 
 enton gather- 
 id Mr. Page's 
 that he has 
 planted them 
 
 \' 
 
 clauses of the 
 ing what the 
 he matter in 
 
 hbourhood of 
 sign it, as all 
 ^ed to get. 
 assured that 
 
 tment taking 
 )Our set apart 
 
 LEONARD MARTIN, of Victoria, describing himself as of French descent, born 
 in Russia, nine years in British Columbia, a fisherman, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What have you to put before the Conmiission ? — A. Well, sir, I emiuired a few 
 years ago and wrote to Mr. ISlowat to ask him to give me a license to fish in deep 
 water, but we were not allowed to fish, and here is the answer from Mr. Mowat about 
 it: — 
 
 "New Westminster, B.C., 10th November, 1890. 
 " Leonard Martin, Esq., 
 
 " 48 Johnston Street, Victoria, B.C. 
 
 " Sir, — In reply to your letters of September 26th, October loth and November 
 4Lh, I beg to state that my office here has been closed for a month while I have been 
 capturing fish and collecting salmon ova — there has been no assistant, hence the cause 
 of no reply having been sent you. I now herewith return your post office order for $5, 
 as we issue no license for fish other than salmon. It is, however, unlawful for you to 
 use a bag-net. I herewith enclose you a copy of the Salmon Fishing Regulations and a 
 copy of return to be filled in for the fish caught or sold during the season and return to 
 me for Government purposes. All other regulations in reference to the fisheries in this 
 piovince can be had by consulting the Fisheries Act. 
 
 "(Signed.) THOMAS MOWAT, 
 
 " Tnsjjector of Fisheries." 
 
 Q. Then you did not get a license and got your $5 back ?— A. Yes, sir. And then 
 about ten months ago I went to Quallass Inlet and fished, but they fined me f 22. This 
 is the receipt was sent me for the fines : — 
 
 " Duncan, B.C., 3rd April, 1891. 
 
 " Dear Sir, — I beg to acknowledge the receipt of notes value $22 in payment of 
 fines imposed upon yourself and T. Bengourd, and costs, for contravention of the 
 Fisheries Act. 
 
 " (Signed.) H. O. WELLBURN, 
 
 " Government Agent. 
 " Leonard Martin, Esq., 
 
 " 48 Johnston Street, Victoria, B.C." 
 
 Q. Then you did fish and they thought it contrary to law and you were fined ? — A. 
 Yec ; I went up to the bay and two other places, and was not allowed to fish in North 
 Saanich — I was not allowed to fish — I only supply the city, and we have only four 
 boats and when the water is very rough we cannot go outside. We are willing to pay 
 — Vd uon 'i want to live on the country without paying proper fees— we are willing to 
 pay license as long as they allow us to fish in salt water. 
 
 Q. Then you see this letter is in November, 1890, in which he sends back the $5 
 for license — well, the Order in Council of ^[arch, 1890, says fishing by means of nets or 
 
 10c— 21^ 
 
T 
 
 324 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 other apparatus without leases or licences from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is 
 prohibited in all the waters of British Columbia. It seems then he sent his $5 to get 
 a license. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS.— Well, you see from section 4, of the Fisheries Act, which says :— 
 "4. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries may, wherever the exclusive right of 
 fishing does not already exist by law, issue or authorize to be issued fishery leases and 
 licenses for fisheries and fishing wheresoever situated or carried on ; but leases or 
 licenses for any term exceeding nine years shall be issued only under authority of the 
 Governor in Council." 
 
 This gives the Minister and the Governor in Council power to give leases and 
 licenses. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot.- 
 
 Q. But, what was your application for ? — A. For fishing small fish — herrings, 
 flounders, and small fish to supply the city fish market — we do not fish for the canneries 
 — sometimes, of course, we get some salmon. We use a net 50 fathoms from shore. 
 
 By Mr, Iliggina : 
 
 Q. What net do you use ? — A. A bag-net. 
 
 '4- Well, that is prevented by law ? — A. Well, we cannot catch any fish if we can- 
 not use a bag-net — we cannot catch anything. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, but if the Minister thinks proper to admit of special licenses 
 being issued or an Order in Council passed that would allow it, he can do so — but it does 
 not seem as if any order was passed. (The chairman here read over the Regulations for 
 the province of British Columbia), and continued : — You see, Mr. Martin, these say he 
 issues no other licenses except for salmon. 
 
 Mr. HiGoiNS. — Well, who does issues them then ? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, they never were issued, and the special permission of the Min- 
 ister is necessary — I may say that it was represented to the department that these bag- 
 nets kill great numbers of young and immature fish, and it is considered that such fish- 
 ing implements should not be used. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS.— Well, how are they to get these small fish ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.^ — ^They can catch them with small meshed seines, but when it is neces- 
 sary, application being made through the proper channel, I presume the Government 
 would promote an Order in Council in reference to that matter — but the representations 
 made were that fishing with bag-nets was most injurious, as it took great numbers of 
 small herring and other fish and these small fish were dragged ashore and they decayed 
 in great numbers, and I think the evidence of Mr. Lomas yesterday corroboi'ates that 
 in every particular. 
 
 Mr. Hi: ins. — Well, why could they not be prohibited from putting these small 
 fish on shore, but not shut down altogether on them. If we over-load these fisheries 
 with restrictions they will never do anything with them at all. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong.— Were you here yesterday, Mr. Higgins, when Mr. Lomas was 
 giving evidence on this point 1 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — No. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, the evidence yesterday was most conclusive that large numbers 
 of these young fish were destroyed. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — ^Then you will catch no small fish ? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, unless the small mesh net was used and no small fish be drag- 
 ged ashore. While we are on that subject, I might state that when it was represented 
 to the department it was said that it was not more right for them to throw away these 
 small fish in great numbers than for the canners to throw dway so much offal, etc. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — Well, but in the meanwhile what are these men to do ? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, it would not do for me to say what they might do in an 
 oflacial capacity. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — Well, but something should be done. Have you ever heard of 
 waste in Esquimalt and Victoria Harbours, Mr. Wilmot 1 
 
Fisheries is 
 ) $5 to get 
 
 ich says : — 
 ve right of 
 T leases and 
 it leases or 
 )rity of the 
 
 3 leases and 
 
 1 — herrings, 
 he canneries 
 n shore. 
 
 h if we can- 
 
 icial licenses 
 —but it does 
 julutions for 
 bhese say he 
 
 of the Min- 
 it these bag- 
 at such fish- 
 
 n it is neces- 
 jrovernment 
 resentations 
 numbers of 
 ley decayed 
 X)rates that 
 
 these small 
 sse fisheries 
 
 Lomas was 
 
 i"ge numbers 
 
 [ish be drag- 
 represented 
 away these 
 d, etc. 
 
 tht do in an 
 
 er heard of 
 
 BRITISH OOLCHBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 325 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, I do not know, but I think those were mentioned, and re- 
 presentations were made that small salmon were brought in weighing one, two, and 
 three pounds, and these are (tbservable, I think, on the mai-kets every day Mr. Lomas 
 has been a fishery otticer for some time and appears \ery Intelligent and h(! thinks them 
 young sa'mon. (To witness.) Well, ytm say yoi; were refused licenses and afterwards 
 fined for fishing? A. Yes, I was refused license and then was fined. 
 
 Q. It is a bag-net you use? — A. Yes ; we u.se it about fifty fathoms from shore. 
 The mesh is about two and a half to three inches, and the bag is one inch mesh, and 
 small salmon can go through ; then it is aliout forty-five to fifty fathoms long. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Well, an inch mesh would take everything that came along. 
 
 Jiij Mr, Hiyijinn ; 
 
 Q. Are you fishing in th»' ' arliour now? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Where do these little fish tnme from we see in the market ?— A. From Cowichan 
 and from other places. 
 
 Q. Where do the oulachons come from I see here now? — A. From Tacoma and 
 along the Hound. 
 
 Q. Is it only oulachons they bring ? — A. Well, we generally fish out hei-e and get 
 heriings, .soles, flounders and small fish ; but now we g(it very few, because we cannot 
 fish with bag- nets. 
 
 Q. Do you know the fish saluKjn trout ? — A. Oh, yes. I know sj>eckled trout and 
 salmon trout and young salmon. 
 
 ii. Are they the same fish ? — A. Oh, no ; they are altogether different. 
 
 B// Mr. Wifmot : 
 
 Q. What would be the size of these small fish ? — A. Oh, about the size of herring 
 and smelts ; they are all small fish ; if we don't use bag-nets we cannot catch tliem. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. IliggiiiH : 
 
 Q. Do you leave these young fish on the bank or not, oi' do you leave any fish on 
 shore? — A. Well, .sometimes half a bag or so. Last year at Es(iuinialt there was some 
 left on shore ; last year we were fiui ' '\i Victoria for leaving small fish on shore ; they 
 thought it unhealthy. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — If my brother Commissioners will not think it intruding on my 
 part, I will present to tliem the exact size of the mesh used (|)roceeding to show Messrs. 
 Armstrong and Higgins l)y diagrams drawn on one of the departmental files). Tlie half 
 inch me.sh will take all little fish of every kind, and the complaint is that large numbers 
 of these little fish are cast on shore and decay. 
 
 Mr. Hi(!(UN's (to witness). — Q. What were you fined for at Cowichan ? — A. I was 
 fishing for bottom fish. ]Mr. Lomas came down and told me I could not fish without a 
 license in Cowichan, and I told him I sent to ^Ii-. Mowat for licenses and .sent the 
 money, but I got none ; so he seized my net and I was taken down bef(jre Mr. Edwards 
 and was fined. It is jjretty hard when a man sends the money to the (Government to 
 get a license, and then to be fined because he hasn't one. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. What fish do you catch ? — A. Herring, rock cod, tommy-cod, ling, flounders, 
 soles — all kinds of small fish. 
 
 Q. What is the probable size of the flounders you catch ? —A. From one to six and 
 eight pounds. 
 
 Q. What is the size of a one pound fish ? — A. Oh, about five or six inches long ; it 
 is very flat and a very light fish. 
 
 By Mr. Iligyinf^ : 
 
 Q. Do you fish with a seine now ? — -A. Yes, sir. 
 , Q. And you do not catch many fish ? — A. Nothing at all. 
 Q. It don't pay you?— A. No, sir. I am behind about 822 or .*?24 in the last two 
 months. 
 

 826 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIKS. 
 
 ,. 1 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Have you the sole here proper ? — A. No ; that is the name of it ; but there are 
 very few English soles ; some average about a pound or a pound and a half. 
 
 Q. What is the size of smelt ? — A. Well, between five and six inches long. 
 Some may be a little longer. 
 
 Q. What size herrings ? — A. From six to seven inches. 
 
 Q. The rock cod ? — From two to five pounds. 
 
 Q. And your ling 1 — A. Between two to seven. 
 
 Q. Is ling cod the same as ling ? — A. No ; it is diflFerent. It is green. 
 
 Q. What is the size of ling ? — A. About three or four pounds, I think. 
 
 Q. Now, tliere is not a single one of those fish that could not be caught as readily 
 in three and one-half inch mesh as with a half inch mesh 1 — A. No, sir ; you could not. 
 Smelt and herring would go through. 
 
 Q. But these liounders, and herring, and rock cod, and ling, are all good sized fish ? 
 
 Mr. HifUiiNS. — But you would never get those in a seine ; there should be some 
 special regulation for this fishery. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— But it is evident that this half inch mesh kills many little fish. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Do you ever cast your net up A^ictoria Arm ? — -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you catch there 1 — A. Oh, some herring ; but they won't let us fish 
 there now. 
 
 Q. They say herring have disappeared from the Arm ? — A. Well, some gentlemen 
 have some trout there, but generally the herring goes up there, and in winter time they 
 go into the same inlet. They won't let us lish ; we cannot get any herring. Thei'e is 
 no halibut in the mai-ket. 
 
 Q. Where do you catch halibut 1 — A. Oh, outside in the straits. They are very 
 scarce. 
 
 Q. Is there any particular bank where you catch them 1 — A. Yes ; there is a bank 
 near here, and another one not far away. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You did not say, when you were giving descriptions of fish, whether you ever 
 caught any otheis^any trout ? — A. No, sir ; I do not remember any — not in four or 
 five years. I never caught any. 
 
 Q. Any young salmon ? — A. Yes : in Saanich. Three of them — about two and a 
 half pounds. 
 
 Q. Any smaller than that 1 — A, No ; I never noticed any. 
 
 Q. Could you distinguish between a trout and a salmon that might be six or seven 
 or eight inclies long — could you tell the difference between them ? — A. Yes ; I think so. 
 
 Q. And you say you have never caught any trout or salmon about that size ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I think if the matter was properly representetl to tne department 
 about this fishery, it would no doubt be considered, but the matter has never been 
 brought beft>re them, except that they were killing young and immature fish of every 
 kind, lience the department thought it proper to disallow it, since licenses have been 
 issued for nets with mesh three and a half inches square- -they would catch most all 
 fish mentioned here except heiring and smelt. Heri'ing nets are specially allowed in 
 some parts of the J^ominion, when applied for. 
 
 Mr. Hkjcixs. — Periiaps some of tiie other gentlemen here might have some sugges- 
 tions on this matter. Has any one any suggestion that would assist the Conunission ? 
 
 Mr. EwKN. — T have ; but I would like to ask the witness a (juestion. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstuon'i;. — Well, no ; let him siggest it properly. I will not agree to that. 
 Persons getting up in any part of the room — I will not have it. Let him put questions 
 through the Commissioners. 
 
 Mr. Wauu. — Oh, privately. Then this is not a public in(|uiry at all. 
 
it there are 
 
 aches long. 
 
 it as readily 
 I could not. 
 
 1 sized fish 1 
 lid be some 
 
 <le fish. 
 
 let us fish 
 
 gentlemen 
 r time they 
 ;. There is 
 
 ey are very 
 
 ■e is a bank 
 
 ir you ever 
 in four or 
 
 two and a 
 
 iix or seven 
 
 I think so. 
 
 i size ? — A. 
 
 department 
 never been 
 sh of every 
 have been 
 ;h most all 
 allowed in 
 
 mimission ? 
 
 ree to that, 
 t questions 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION, 
 
 32*7 
 
 Ml-. Hir.GiNS. — Come, Mr. Ewen, let me know your question. I will not be 
 insulted l)y being asked a plain question by an honest man. Como and sit by me and 
 let me know what you want. (Mr. Ewen seated himself beside Mr. Iliggins and com- 
 municated to him his wishes.) 
 
 Mr. HifJOiNS (to witness). — Q. Could you c:itch these small fish, such as flounders 
 and ling, herring, smelt, etc., except in bag or pouch nets ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not in any that size? — (Showing diagram of mesli.) — A. No, sir; ling goes 
 through. 
 
 Q. Could you catch it in this ? — (showing diagram 1 and Ih) — A. Yes, I could ; I 
 consifler the small fish have i)lenty of chance to go through before they come to the bag. 
 Now, I was trying to catch some herrings by gilling, but I could not catch thtMu ; in one 
 whole night perhaps I would get one bag. 
 
 Q. Well, it is pretty evident from what Mr. Wilmot says that the net will catch 
 everything that swims? — A. Well, when you get to shore they liave chances to get 
 away. Tliere is 50 fathoms of net, and in hauling it in there is plenty of chance for tiie 
 small ones to get tlirough the mesh and escape. 
 
 B>/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Well, I tliink the wliole tiling is in a nut sliell. I don't see any object to use a 
 seine for catching your l)ottom fish with n»esh one and three-quarters inch sipuire, 
 because it will take every fisli you have enumerated there, and witli a gill-net you 
 could catch largei' ones 1 — A. Well, no, sir. 
 
 B// Mr. f/l(/iji>iK : 
 
 Q. But you have said tliat this mesh would do, and it would let small fish get 
 away. Now I have nt)ticed myself that the nets used in the Arm would catch small 
 fish, but there they let the small fish go. Can you haul these pouch nets when hauling 
 them on shore ?---A. No ; it is ini])ossible. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — You will understand too, Mr. Commissioners, that very serious com- 
 plaints have been made both here and at New Westminster about catching small salmon, 
 and here is the same thing where the small fish of other species are caught and thrown 
 on shore. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. ArinKtrt»i<i : 
 Q. If you catch a great nundier of fish can the small fish get through before you 
 get them on shore ? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; the lish go tlirough in all directions ; on the sides 
 and the back. Fish go to the back and stay there ; but there is plenty of chance for 
 the little ones to get away. 
 
 By Mr. Wit id at : 
 
 Q. Ts it a drag-net or seine — when hauling in the seine the fish — do they run 
 from the seine towards the shore .' -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then when near the siiore they are all huddled together, and they cannot 
 est'ai)e? — A. Yes, some ; if they get in the bag c»f course they cannot escape ; but the 
 thing is all open, and in goinat to the bag they have plenty of chance to get out. 
 
 Q. It is just as well this matter should como up, as it has undergone a good deal of 
 discu.ssion, and it is benericial to have this information. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. AriHstroiuj : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other fisheriiiiMi wliu would eonic here ? 
 are many fishermen, but T think tliey are all out prosjiecting for tisli. 
 fish in the markets, ami th(\y are trying to catch them. Then there is another man who 
 was fined for fishing m Cowielian ; it cost him 6 1"-") ; he was fined just like I was. 
 
 Q. Could you bring him here? — A. No : he has gone to Cowichan. 
 
 By Mr. Wihmd : 
 Q. Did you have any knowledge of tiiis Commission sitting to in\estigate these 
 matters? — A. Yes; I heard of it, and I thougiit T woulil come and make complaint 
 about it. We cannot fish, and have to keep our families, etc. ; it is very hard. 
 
 A. Yi!s ; there 
 There are no 
 
 5-1 
 

 328 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. When did you hear of the Commission sitting ? — A. I heard when it was in 
 Westminster. 
 
 Q. Was it talked over by the fishermen? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And wliy don't they come ? — A. Well, they thought I could speak better Eng- 
 liali, and they thought T should come and tell you about it. 
 
 Q. Then you are representing others; other fishermen? — A. Yes ; I speak for all. 
 
 Q. How many other fishermen are there here ? — A. About 10 or 12 men. 
 
 y. What countrymen principally ? — A. Some are Italians ; some Austrians ; some 
 Greeks ; all nationalities. 
 
 Q. Have you ever become a British subject by taking the necessary oath ? — A. 
 Yes, I have. 
 
 Q. Is that the same with other fishermen ? — A. Yes ; every one. We all have to 
 become British subjects. 
 
 Q. And you have taken the necessary oath which makes you British subjects ?--A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. HiG(iiNS. — T wish you would step down to Vienna's market and ask him to 
 come up at 2 o'clock this afternoon, and come back and let me know if he will come, 
 for if not we will issue a subpwna for him. — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 HENRY BELI -IRVING, a native of Scotland and resident of Vancouver, in 
 British Columbia sinc>^ 1883, a merchant, was duly sworn. 
 
 Ihj Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Have you anything to submit, Mr. IrvMig, in regard to these matters relating 
 to the salnioii or othei' fisheries of British Columbia ? — A. Yes ; I am largely interested 
 in the ciinniiig industry myself pei'sonally, and as Chairman of the local Committee of 
 the Anglo-British Columbia Packing Company. I am agent for that company. 
 
 Q. Is tiiat the English syndicate, sii- ? — A. Well, it is not coi-rectly termed an 
 English syndicate, because tliere is a large pro[)ortion of the capital that has ])eeii sub- 
 scribed in this country. I believe it is named the English Syndicate, although there is 
 anothei' one eai'lier than ours. I may say the Jieadcpiarters ai'e in London. We own 
 nine canneries on the Frasei' River and two on the Skeena River; tlu'se canneries have 
 each a capacity of about 20,000 cases. I have read over .some of the evidence on my 
 way here, l)ut as I only arrived from England the day before yesterday, I am in igno 
 rance of a good deal that has been done. I .see, iiowever, that one witness, a man who 
 I believe lias not a cent invested in the cannery business, ventures to give as his opinion 
 that ten licenses were sufiicient for eacli cannery ; if he had any money in the canning 
 business lie would think otherwise. At the commencement of the season i should 
 think each cannery requii'es from oO to CO licenses, I mean to say they can take the fish 
 from no to 00 boats, a week later i)ei'iiaps 40 would l)e enough ; in the height of the 
 run from 20 to 25 would be enough for a very few days just in the height of the run. 
 The market has been crowded and the business lias l)een worked up by tiie cannei's nnd 
 by the agents for the canners, Ijy tlieii- i)usliing their busine.ss in otiier countries and 
 selling fish and increasing the market ami inducing people to purchase, and they have a 
 large amount of money invested in the Ixisiness, and I think it entii'cly unfair that 
 fishermen should now come in and say we want half of the licenses that are on the 
 river; we want you canners w]>o have practically worked up the business to what it is 
 and made a market ; we want to dejjrive you of the means of fishing and the licenses 
 to be handed over to us. T should think it would be sheer robbery to de[)rive the can- 
 ners of the licenses that have recently been given to the canners. I think you might 
 as well take tinibei' limits and hand them over to the loggers as take licenses from the 
 caimers. The welfare of fishei'inen is of considerable account to canners, they wish to 
 treat them well, but do not want to be entirely at the mercy of the fishermen. Canners 
 have to look forward very far ahead and make arrangements for their season's work.- 
 We have now ships on the way from I'^ngland with large supplies ; we have even bought 
 su{>plies foi- 189;$, which i« a long way ahead, and now not knowing the lunnber of 
 
BRITISH COIiUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 329 
 
 I it was in 
 
 better Eiig- 
 
 leak for all. 
 
 riiius ; some 
 
 ■ oath?— A. 
 
 ; all have to 
 
 hjects 1- -A. 
 
 ask him to 
 5 will coiue, 
 
 mcouver, iii 
 
 xers relating 
 y iiiterested 
 lomniittee of 
 ,ny. 
 
 termed an 
 
 IS been sub- 
 
 iij,'h there is 
 
 We own 
 
 neries have 
 
 eiice t)ii my 
 
 im in igno- 
 
 i man who 
 
 lis opinion 
 
 he canning 
 
 n\ 1 should 
 
 ike tht^ tish 
 
 -ht of the 
 
 of the run. 
 
 ann(>rs and 
 
 unti'ies and 
 
 hey have a 
 
 unfair that 
 
 arc on the 
 
 > what it is 
 
 he licenses 
 
 ve the can- 
 
 you might 
 
 cs from the 
 
 icy wish to 
 
 n. Cannci's 
 
 oil's work.- 
 
 vcn bought 
 
 number of 
 
 licenses that will be issued we are working on a very precarious basis, and \ think the 
 regulations should be put on a permanent basis so we could calculate with a fair amount 
 of certainty on what materials would be wanted. As to weekly close time, I think the 
 present regulation works very satisfactorily, that is from G a.m. on Satui-day to G p.m. 
 on Sunday, practically the Sunday is not violated ; the residents are not disturbed by 
 any noise or anything ; it is only on Sunday evening the fishermen start out and tish all 
 night. If tishing was continued on Saturday and Saturday night, we would have to 
 work on Sunday, and therefore, I think the present close time cannot be improved upon. 
 Then the annual close time, I think, might be left as it is. I think it a very good limit 
 from 1st March to "ioth August for 5|-inch mesh. 
 
 Q. Do you think live and three-((uarters inch mesh correct 1 — A. Yes : I think so 
 — that is for soekeye. This limit I am speaking of uj) to 25tli August. We fished to 
 3Jst August this year, and I may say at the very end of the month tliei-e was a big i-uii 
 of fish ; the time was extended, and we had (piite a lot of woi-k, and after the 31st of 
 August there were millions of sockeyc running, liut they were not in as good condition 
 for canning as the earlier fish. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 Q. Should five and three-quarters inch mesh be the minimum mesh 1 — A. The same 
 as now ; that is, the same regulation be continued. 
 
 Q. But you may have them as much larger as you like 1 — A. As much larger — yes. 
 I may say I have just come back fiom England and have seen some of the principal 
 dealers of salmon there, and they prefer the sockcye salmon altogetiier. You cannot 
 convince them that the spring salmon is a better fish. They must have red fish and red 
 oil. I was very [ilcased to see that the demand in tlic English market is going rather 
 now from the Coluiiil)ia JUver fish to the Eraser River fish. I take it that is because 
 canners have given more attention to careful packing in the last year or two, and only 
 packing the first (juality of fish. They all insist upon having good (piality of fish packed. 
 They said : "If you put up a good article you can always get a good market and ready 
 sale, but we want no scraps. There are too many tail pieces put in, cspcH'ially in the 
 Hat tins, but you must put in no flat pieces." There is, of course, a good deal of waste 
 in canneries with small pieces and scraps that are unfit to pack, and if ])acked, they 
 would have to be sold at a loss. Now, I think it is unfair to e.xpect canners to put up 
 these scraps, becau.se they would have to be sold at a loss if wc could get any market at 
 all. Then we have to enter into keen competition with the Alaska packers. Their 
 salmon has much the same ai)j)earance as ours, but we have the advantage of them tliat 
 our salmon is much more carefully packed, and that we have to rely upon. Now, it 
 may be the opinion of a few in this country — I have hctard one oi- two speak in that 
 way — that, as I believe, it is practised in the United States, that after British capital 
 has been induced to come in the country and is invested, it becomes legitimate prey for 
 any one, and he is considered a clever man wiio can deprive the investor of a jiortion of 
 his profit. I think good faith should be kept with people wlio send their money here 
 for investment, because" in a new country like this it is of great impoi'taiice we should 
 get all outside capital we can. I notice there lias been some evidence given in relation 
 to licenses given to freezers. The early fishing in spring does not, in my o])inion, effect 
 the canners much-the s}iring salmon, as 1 said, is Ncry little good to jiack for the 
 English market. It seems to me, if licenses were issued to freezers and siiii)peis of 
 fi'esli salmon to catch sprins.' salmon only, that a good deal of that difficulty would be 
 overcome. The contention iias been, and I think rightly, too, that fn'e/.ers. or people 
 who pretend to be free/ers, simply get a. number of licenses and make money out of 
 them, by .selling fish to caniu'i's. Now, if they were only entitled to tisli with large 
 meshed nets, that would be done away with. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. //ii/iji)is : 
 
 Q. Because the canners would not buy the white ?— A. But to a very small extent. 
 They don't can .salmon — the spi'ing salmon. I think the canning of spring salmon, in 
 
330 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 M- i :• I 
 
 my opinion, is but a very small business, indeed ; and, as I have said, in the Enj^lish 
 markets they do not want it. It is more expensive to pack spring salmon, and we 
 cannot j^et 
 
 Q. What is youi- opinion of spring salmon yourself ? — A. I think it is a much better 
 fish in every way, but we have to go by the market. 
 
 Q. Could not we educate them up to it? — A. Well, I have tried it — we have ship- 
 ped spring salmon to England last year but we will meet with loss — it will have to be 
 sold at a loss and we have to be governed by the ti-ade now a good deal has been said 
 about the disposal of the oil'al. I may say that this company with which I am connected 
 commenced l)usiness last year — it was in the beginning of May, and at that time it was 
 almost too late for us to think of putting up an oil refinery or platif for disposing of this 
 otfal by manufacturing it into guano — it was almost too late, but I did all T could to 
 induce a firm on the Columbia River to come over and take all the offal from our 
 factoi'ies. I gave this firm all the opi)ortunities I could, and offered a bonus if tlu^y would 
 do it — there was nmch correspondence about it, and I thought at first we would be 
 successful, but it fell through — the firm could not see there would be any money in it, 
 and I think myself it would result in loss to any one who would go into it. It may l)e better 
 in the future, when the soil becomes worked out, but of that I cannot say. Now, as to 
 the disposal of the offal, I believe firndy if offal is shot out into deep water into a strong 
 current, it cannot be either injurious to fish life or to the health of the people residing on 
 shore. It is true, thei'e are numerous cases of typhoid fever in the Delta, but 1 think 
 the sickness there is attributable to other causes than fish offal — the unsanitai'y condition 
 of the houses and other causes I think, will explain tliat — bad drainage, &c. — as a matter 
 of fact one hears of alnn)st no sickness at the canneries where the offal is disposed of, but 
 chiefly at hotels where there has been crowds of woi-kmen and others living together and 
 where they are not over careful about the sanitary arrangements. As to the hatchery, 
 the river is such a large river that I do not think the hatchery has had much appreci- 
 able effect as yet though there is no doubt last year was exceptionally good for an " off" 
 year, but we know that the fish hatcheries have been very l)eneficial in smalUsr rivers 
 where the results were mor*' noticeable, and I think the hatchery should l)e encouraged 
 in every way possible, either by increasing its capacity or by building other new hat- 
 cheries on the smaller tributaries. I think this is a matter tiiat would l)e supported by 
 every canner it cannot by any chance do any harm and the chances are 100 to 1 it 
 will do a great deal of good. As to the northern cannei'ies on the Skeena Eiver, I think 
 it is important there should be no change made in the regulations there, especially this 
 yeai', for as you are awai'e all arrangements for materials, itc, have been made long ago, 
 oil the basis that they would have a certain number of licenses. I may .say we work 
 there the JJritish American cannei'y. We were granted 'M licenses and have been 
 granted them foi' a numl)er of yeai's pie\ iously and also worked a number of outside 
 boats and tlien liad not as mai.y l)oats as we wanted. I think on the Fraser Jiiver eacii 
 cannery siiould have a certain fixed number of boats, not less than 25. When I say 25 
 T do not menu t<i say we cannot do witli more tlian that, because in a jjoor year we can 
 use 50 boats all the year througii. .My company do not inten<l this year to work all its 
 canneries because we cannot get enough boats to supply all the canneries with fish it 
 is pi'opdsed to run half the canneries (.n the Fi'aser Hivei- and use tl\e fish from thost^ 
 boats of canneries not running to put in the other canneries and dtaible up, thus leduciiig 
 expenses, but I tliink it most essential that there should be a fixed number of licenses 
 to the canners, sd they may reply on ordering supplies, &t'., and so there should be no 
 dangec ol' iK'ing frozen out by any combination of fishermen, as canners have money 
 invested and not the fishermen, and if it was not for the canners the fishermen would 
 have a \ery small market indeed -the local market — and which is a mere nothing to 
 them. Tliat is all I have to say. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. Ann.sfroni/ : 
 
 Q. M r I iviiig, supjMise all liritish subjects wln) apply for licensv's should get them ? — 
 A. Canners and everybody else? 
 
 i). All persons, IJritisli subjects who apply. Would cainiers require as many licen- 
 ses as if the number of licenses were limited, except a cei'tain number granted to each 
 
BRITISH COIiUMBIA PI8HERT COMMISSION. 
 
 331 
 
 ;he Enfjjlish 
 ion, and we 
 
 much better 
 
 B have ship- 
 
 I has-e to be 
 [IS been said 
 n CDnnected 
 
 time it was 
 osing of this 
 
 II I could to 
 fal fioni our 
 i thoy would 
 kve would be 
 money in it, 
 lay be better 
 
 Now, as to 
 nto a strong 
 e residing on 
 but 1 think 
 iry condition 
 —as a matter 
 posed of, but 
 together and 
 he hatchery, 
 uich appreci- 
 foran "off" 
 mailer rivers 
 p encouraged 
 her new hat- 
 iupj)ortc'd by 
 e 100 to 1 it 
 iver, I think 
 lecially this 
 ule long ago, 
 say we work 
 have been 
 r of outside 
 ■r Jiiver each 
 len 1 say '2i') 
 year we can 
 work all its 
 with iish it 
 1 from those 
 lus loducing 
 r of licenses 
 should be no 
 have money 
 rmen would 
 nothing to 
 
 get them ? — 
 
 i many licen- 
 ited to each 
 
 cannery ? Wliat would you think of that ? — A. Well, I am afraid it would lead to 
 some over-crowding on the river, but it is a matter that would right itself. I do not 
 think any more than the present nund;)er of boats could fjsn on the river, and if more 
 were allowed, I think there would be trouble on the river, because each fisherman would 
 have to wait his turn to fish a drift. 
 
 Q. Do you think much of the Alaska pack reaches Eughmd ? — ^A. Oh, yes ; a large 
 quantity and the Alaska pack governs the English market more than anything else. A 
 large amount of the Columbia River pack is consumed in the United States on account 
 of the duty on tin plates, and it is really the Alaska pack that governs the English 
 market. It has more effect than the Eraser River pack a good deal. 
 
 /it/ Mr. llujijitis : 
 
 Q. You speak of the large amount of capital invested in the fisheries. Can you 
 tell the total amount invested on the Eraser Rivei- api>roximately I — A. Of course it 
 depends a good deal upon the pack. 
 
 Q. Oh, well, I mean the amount invested in appliances, etc., stock in hand, etc., 
 take an ordinary year. I mean the plant, not the out-put 1 — A. Well, do you count the 
 good-will, because that is a very large item. I supjwse Mr. Ewen would consider his 
 good-will a great deal more than the value of his cannery. 
 
 Q. AVell, I don't think we can count the good-will. I mean the machinery, the 
 buildings, the ground, etc., all necessary to carry on the business : the amount of money 
 put into it, you know 1 — A. Well, I should think the value of t;ie canneries, including 
 the good-will 
 
 Bi/ Mr. ArniHtrong : 
 
 Q. Oh, do not include the good-will ; that does not amount to anything, (live us 
 the canneries ; good-will has nothing to do with ti'ade. — A. Nothing to do with trade ? 
 Why if we pay so much for a piece of property, a good deal of that is for the good-will. 
 Whv the man may have gained a reputation for the brand and that is worth a good 
 (leak 
 
 Mr. AuMSTKONTt. — But another man's brand may not be worth anything. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. l/i(j</ii)s : 
 
 Q. 
 
 To a certain extent I think ^Ir. Ai-mstrong is right. 
 
 ]\[r. Irving, — I intend to 
 
 divide my (piestion in three parts : First, the amount of capital invested in the canneries, 
 the laad, the buildings, nets, boats, etc. ? — -A. Well, if I [)ay 810,000 for a cannery and 
 that cannery is burned down flat, I could prol)ably build it again for .Slio,000, but I 
 would consider that there was 840,000 invested. 
 
 Mr. AVir.MOT. — No; I do not think so, Vjecause to a certain extent that is specul- 
 ative. — A. Well, you asked how nuich money was put into the business : well, we pay 
 so nuich, but if the places were burned down we could replace them for very consider- 
 ably less than what we paid for them. 
 
 Mr. Akmstkon(;. — Well, but we cannot take into calculation every good-will. I 
 know fi case in New Westminster where so much was put in for good-will, but the good- 
 will was not worth a cent. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Take the value of real property — what would good-will be 
 worth ? A num may own a horses and want .^lOO for him, and another come along and 
 say, "That horse will be worth ^oOO to me,"" ijut that would not be the market value of 
 the horse. — A. Oh, I see. 
 
 Mr. HicifiiNS. -But you aiv off the track. I want to get at how much money is 
 invested in the canneries. 8ay Mr. Irving has paid 810,000 for a cannery ; now, that 
 is .8-10,000 capital, no matter what it cost the first man who sold it. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Yes; but the capital that is invested in that way may be brought 
 about in this way — now a man owns a caiuiery say, and strangers come here and they 
 make him believe the cannery is worth so much — perhai)s four times its real value. 
 
 h 
 
11 
 
 m'l 
 
 332 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : > 
 
 Q. But I do not want to know how much it is worth ; I want to know liow much 
 capital is invested in the conduct of the fisheries on the Fraser River. — A. The whole 
 ot the canneries on the Fraser River ? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. I should say one million dollars for value of the canneries is a fair 
 sum — independent of anything else. 
 
 Q. That includes everything in the way of appliances 1 — A. Yes ; boats and nets, 
 land and everything else. 
 
 Q. Would that be a low or a high estimate 1 — A. I should think it a fair estimate. 
 
 Q. How many canneries are there ?— A. Twenty-three, I think now. 
 
 Q. Are all running? — A. They were all running last year, yes — no, I am wrong; 
 twenty-two there were. 
 
 Q. Now, sir, the amount of capital required to keep those canneries in operation — 
 how much to keep them going 1 — A. I see. Well, we will take a big year, say, for of 
 course the capital involved in a poor year like what we expect to come now is very 
 different to what we expect in a good year. I should say a million and a half of dollars 
 is the amount required when the pack would be about 440,000 cases. 
 
 Q. Then there is about $2,500,000 invested on the Fraser River? — A. I should 
 think about that. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. living, if the value of canneries is a million of dollars, now what will 
 it cost to put up one of those canneries 1 — A. Well, it will depend upon the taste of 
 the builder a good deal. 
 
 Q. Well, as they now stand 1 — A. Well, for $25,000 I believe you can put up a 
 a good cannery — that is, without boats or nets or any material. 
 
 Q. Well, but do you think any that arc up now cost $25,000, except Mr. Ewen's .' 
 — A. Well, I siiould think tliey would, judging by the amount of insurance that is 
 carried on those canneries. That would be a fair crite.ion to go by. 
 
 Q. Well, it insurance carried on the building or plant ? — A. On both building and 
 plant. I would say for tlie average cannery on the Fraser River, of course, $25,000 
 would be al)out the amount. 
 
 Q. Hut, as they were put up first ?— A. Oh, well, perhaps $15,000 to $20,000— that 
 though is a very very low estimate that is the bare cannery and nothing else. 
 
 Q. Then wliftt would the machinery cost 1 A. Oh, I include the plant. 
 
 (^. lioats and all 1 — A. No, not boats oi- nets. 
 
 Q. And wliat would it cost to supply tliose boats and nets? — A. Well, about $5,000 
 for nets. 
 
 Q. And I suppose that has to l)e renewed e\ery year?— A. E\ei'y year. 
 
 Q. And the boats about $40 apiece? — A. Some would cost more than that — some 
 cost nearer $50 and $G0 — of course $40 is the bare boat alone and many bare boats cost 
 $50 and $60. 
 
 t^). I suppose $50 would he the average ? — A. More. 
 
 Q. Well, would $G0 cover them ? ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I think al)out $20,000 would come near the average of all the canneries would 
 it not ? — A. Well, may be you are right, but that is not a high sum at all. 
 
 By Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. And do you think $20,000 a fair value for the building ?^ A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then tiow do you make out the value of the canneries to be a million ?— A. 
 Well, some of that land tlier*; is very valual)le, and my answer was not only for the bare 
 buililing but the l)usiness. 
 
 Q. Hut your reply was it would cost one million — now, this divided between the 
 canneries makes each $45,000 and you say $20,000 for each — now that is double that. — 
 A. AVell, the question was put " iiow much money is invested in the business." 
 
 Q. Well, we will let that drop— do you think the $45,000 is too nmch ?— A. Not 
 some — I know there are men would not sell tJi"ir canneries for that. 
 
 i 
 
BRITISH OOLDMBIA FI8HEBT COMMISSION. 
 
 333 
 
 f how mucli 
 .. The whole! 
 
 'ies is a fair 
 
 ts and nets, 
 
 fair estimate. 
 
 I am wrong ; 
 
 I operation — 
 
 ,r, say, for of 
 
 now is very 
 
 lalf of (loUars 
 
 -A. I should 
 
 now what will 
 the taste of 
 
 ^an put up a 
 
 Mr. Ewen's ? 
 irance that is 
 
 buildinj* and 
 urse, 8l^"),000 
 
 20,000 - that 
 else, 
 nt. 
 
 about $5,000 
 
 m that — sonio 
 are boats cost 
 
 nnerics would 
 
 million'? —A. 
 y for the bare 
 
 1 between tlio 
 louble that. — 
 
 less. 
 
 ichl— A. Not 
 
 Q. Well, how could you state that figure then ? — A. Well, the $20,000 are the mere 
 value of putting up the building— the bare building — nothing else. 
 
 Q. Could not one be put up for $5,000 or .$10,000 ?— A. Well, I suppose if you like 
 you can can fish in a bare shed. 
 
 Q. Is it not so that some of the canneries are being al)out to be pulled down 1 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS. — Well, Mr. Chairman, pardon me — I think you are travelling the 
 very way I spoke of the other day — I asked the question what was the amount capital 
 invested, not the plant — now Mr. Irving. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — But you asked about the plant ? 
 
 Mr. HiooiNS. — But, Mr. Wilmot, excuse me — I asked the gentleman what was the 
 money invested in the business — I will appeal to every reporter at this table. Mr. 
 Irving were not you asked this question " what was the amount of money invested in the 
 business ? " 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Mr. Irving, did you not mean when you said the value of the canneries was a 
 million of dollars not including the good-will ? — A. No, I included the good-will, be- 
 cause that good-will has been paid for in hard cash in most instances. 
 
 Q. But did not Mr. Armstrong and myself say " not including the good-will ? " — - 
 A. I included the good-will — why many of the canneries would not take — (inaudible J. 
 
 By Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. I don't exactly catch your answer, namely that some of the canneries would 
 not take — whfit do you say ? — A. I said that many of the canneries would not take that 
 price — I meant that at the average you said — $45,000. I put it in round figures at a 
 million dollars for twenty-two canneries. 
 
 Q. Then are we to understand that the difference between the actual cost of the 
 canneries and the million dollars is good-will, because the actual cost is not half a mil- 
 -A. Yes ; good-will, value of brand, etc. It is an established business, and when 
 
 lion 
 
 a man has established himself in business and been working at it for a number of years, 
 it stands to reason he cannot jump over and run away at a moment's notice, and he will 
 not sell it for a song. 
 
 By Ml'. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you say $20,000 is the value and $25,000 the good-will ?— A. Well, but 
 excuse me, I have put nothing for the land. The sites of many of these canneries are 
 very valuable. 
 
 Q. But, do you not when you build a cannery buy the site, too ?— A. Certainly ; 
 but much of thtat land along the river front is very valuable. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Very well, we will let that drop ; it seems we cannot get any decided 
 answers ; in fact I would rather not ask any more questions. The witness is in your 
 hands, Mr. Higgiiis. 
 
 Mr. HiiiGiNS. — Well, I am sure he has answered very satisfactorily to me. I have 
 nothing further, however, to put. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Yes ; we are much obliged to you, sir. That will do. 
 
 WILLIAM! McNEILL, a native of British Columliia, born and reared in Victoria, 
 and a Fishery Officer for the Victoria District, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Have you anything to represent to the Commission ? — A. Well, in respect to 
 nuisances I have, both in Victoria Harbour and Esquimalt Hail)our. There are eight 
 fishermen engaged in fishing herrings and other fish all the year round. 
 
 Q. In Victoria or Es(iuiinalt, or botli ? — A. Well, we closed Victoria Harbour and 
 ordered them to keep out, but in Esciuimalt we have not done anything yet, but I believe 
 they are just as great a nuisance there as in Victoria. They are engaged in fishing for 
 
^w 
 
 3U 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 herriiifjs uiul thoy haul their nets ashore and allow the young fish to lay there and rot, 
 and. it lieconies a nuisance to people all alonj,' the water front, and it also diminishes the 
 food fish. They have been in the habit of seining their nets stationary right across the 
 George, right here in Victoria, fastening them on the banks at both sides. 
 
 Q. Then it becomes a stationary net? — A. Yes ; running from om^ side to the other 
 and they have caught and killed every trout that comes uj) there and they are extermi- 
 nated entirely in the Gorge. 
 
 Q. Are there other fish besides ti'out ? — A. No ; principally trout, and in nets in 
 the lower pai-t the herring is caught and thrown up on the beach and allowed to rot. 
 
 Q. Do you know the description of net used ? — A. They call them herring nets, 
 but they have very small me.shes. 
 
 Q. Were you prt^sent when Martin, the last fisherman, was giving evidence? He 
 says they fish with lA-inch mesh, and those don't catch anything worth mentioning? — 
 A. Yes ; and some aie still smaller. I think if they were licensed and .some resti'iction 
 put upon them, we would be able to manage them a little better. 
 
 Q. Have they licen.ses to fish these nets? — A. They have no licenses. 
 
 Q. Should you not pi'ovent it then as an ofiicer? — A. There is no law to prevent 
 it ; I have asked for instructions, but have not got them. I am of course a new officer ; 
 I only went into the office in January, 1892. 
 
 Q. Did you know of this beforehand ? — A. Oh, yes ; I knew of it beforehand. 
 
 Q. Mr. IVFartin says he could not get a license ; do you know Mr. jNIartin?^ — A. Oh, 
 yes : 1 know Martin — well, Thomas Martin ? 
 
 Mr. AinisTi{ON(;. — Leonard Martin he gave in. — A. Well, he gives me his name as 
 Thomas. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wihnot; 
 
 Q. He may be Tluimas Leonard ; and you think it injurious here allowing these 
 small nets? — A. AVell, in sunnner time the (Jorge is a great pleasure resort for anglers 
 with hook and line, and it is now destroyed by these fishermen. 
 
 Q. And the fish brought in would comprise what? — A. Trout and rock cod; there 
 used to be whiting caught also ; but they havis destroyed the grounds by tiiis fishing. I 
 have not seen if any made their appearance again, but I am afraid they will be destroy- 
 ed. That was the place foi- leal whiting too. 
 
 Mr. Hicicixs. — I know it well ; 1 have often visited there. 
 
 Q. What do they do with these lish left on the beach ? — A. AVell, they leave them 
 there to lOt. I could bring in two or three good witnesses to substantiate what I state. 
 
 Q. I think you shouhi do so, sir, and then thei-e would be no onus ujjon you as an 
 officer in giving information. I think it would be well to bring the witnesses. Do you 
 know young salmon when you see them ? — A. Y(!s. 
 
 Q. Is the name trout and .salmon confounded in referring to the young?— A. Well, 
 I believe it is. 
 
 Q. Therefore some of these fish that you say are trout taken in these nets may be 
 young salmon ? — A. They may be, some of them ; but we have the trout for years in the 
 Gorge, as everybody knows, when now there is none. 
 
 Q. Brought about by the action of these nets ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be advantageous to the inhabitants of these places that 
 a regulation should be adopted to prevent this impi'oper and improvident fishing ? — A. 
 AVell, as far as atlvantages I do not know, but some regulation should be adopted ; it 
 would 1)6 more ccmvenient. I have been asked to make these representations by a good 
 many people of Victoria. 
 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. — The.se representations have been made to the department before, 
 sir, and steps have been taken to a certain extent in not allowing seining to be done at 
 all, and they should be caught in some other way. 
 
 liy Mr. JIi(/i/ins : 
 
 Q. Oh, yes, these small nets are simply murderous : they catch all the small fish. 
 Do you know a young salmon? — A. Well, from the general appearance I can tell young 
 salmon from salmon trout. 
 
 I 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 335 
 
 L>re and rot, 
 niiiishes the 
 it across tlie 
 
 to the oUu>r 
 are exteriui- 
 
 l in nets in 
 ed to rot. 
 lerring nets, 
 
 deuce ? He 
 •ntioning '( — 
 le restriction 
 
 r to prevent 
 L new officer ; 
 
 rehand. 
 in?— A. Oh, 
 
 ; his name as 
 
 lowing those 
 ■t for anglers 
 
 k cod ; there 
 lis lishing. I 
 1 be destroy- 
 
 y leave thcni 
 
 what I state. 
 
 )n you as an 
 
 ses. Do you 
 
 r?_A. Well, 
 
 nets may be 
 1" years in the 
 
 ifi places that 
 
 fishing 1 — A. 
 
 adopted ; it 
 
 )ns by a good 
 
 nient before, 
 to be done at 
 
 Q. What are tlie characteristics of salmon tn .t — speckled around the tail ? A. 
 Well, .some of them are, more rays, etc., and though I was discu.s.sing with people last 
 night, and would not like to say anything about it, but still T can tell them. I made a 
 seizure not long ago, and they weic .said to be salmon trout, but t con.sider them young 
 salmon. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. Wihnot ; 
 
 Q. Then the salmon trout are not easily discerned, and some young salmon may be 
 here and sold as salmon trout? -A. Yes. I may say I was passing here a few days ago 
 and saw many of them called salmon trout, but they were young salmon. 
 
 By Mr. J/ii/tjiim : 
 
 Q. Will sahnon trout take the lly here?- A. 1 believe they do. 
 
 Q. Will .salmon ?- A. 1 dont know ; I never heard of it. 
 
 Q. Will the.se young sahnon, called .salmon tiout, take the fly?— A. Well, I don't 
 know. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wifniof : 
 
 Q. For of cour.se the young salmon will often lake tlu' (ly : in their young stages 
 they take the bait and tly most greedily, l»ut when tlu^y become adult they do not. 
 They are tretting their growth then, you know, and are hungry. How about the chwe 
 season here, Mr. McNeill, the Sunday close season ? A. Yes, I am awaie of that ; but it is 
 not observed here. The fishermen here tli.it iish arc^ under no law what('\ ci". 
 
 t^. Who was the previous otlicer before you? — A. We have never before had a 
 tisheiy officer here before. 
 
 Q. Who would then be the nearest officer ? — A. John McNabb, at New Westminster. 
 
 Q. Where is Mr. i^omas? — A. Oh, yes ; he would be the nearest ; he is at Cowichan. 
 
 ii. And none of the officeis have in'o.secuted for breaking the Sabbath here? — A. 
 None. 
 
 Q. And have any other H.shei-y officers made com])laints here of the .same nature as 
 you have done? A. Nevei' ; they have gone on seining there up to 1st Januaiy of this 
 year ; they have had their own way here ; they coultl have taken canvas and set it 
 together and scraped the harbour ; nobody could ha\e .said anything to them. 
 
 Q. And do the inhabitants now conijilain of this scarcity ? — A. Yes ; they have. 
 
 Q. Would not regulations, if ])assed to pievent it, be found fault with ? — A. No ; 
 not from resident people here, but from lishernien they might. 
 
 Q. Well, in the event of licenses being given to fishermen heie, should it be oj»en 
 to all or resident fishermen? — A. Open to all. 
 
 Q. Creeks, Italians, etc. ?- A. Well, it is mainly Greeks and Italians who do the 
 fishing here. I have tried to find out if there are any otheis, but there are oidy eight 
 fishei'inen, and they are principally Italians and Greeks, and so if licen.ses are given, I 
 do not think there would be any trouble. 
 
 Q. Yes — that is, it seems that you are to be burdened by these people. Even in 
 their own country they take in everything ; use small mesh and give no thought to the 
 fish until utterly destroyed, and so, I think, they should not be allowed to do as they 
 like. Very well, sir, if you have nothing further, that will do. 
 
 The Chairman declared the Commission adjourned at 12.80 p.m., to meet again at 
 the same place at 2 p.m. 
 
 Before adjourning the Commissioners agreed not to sit later in the afternoon session 
 than 5 p.m. 
 
 he small fish, 
 an tell young 
 
336 
 
 MABINE AND FI8BE&IB8. 
 
 VicToniA, B.C., 5th March, 1892. 
 
 Afternoon Seaaion. 
 
 The Commission was convened at 2 p.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. Wihnot, in the Chair ; Commissioners Armstrong and Higgins, 
 and Mr. Secretary Winter. 
 
 Mr. ASHDOWNE (tREEN, who had been recalled, appeared, and was asked by 
 the Chairman if he had been sworn when giving his evidence yesterday. 
 
 Mr. Gkeen. — Oh, yes ; I was sworn. 
 
 % Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And it was said that you were not sworn in the usual way, and that it was 
 intentional ? — A. Nothing of the sort, sir ; I was duly sworn. 
 
 Q. And do you find that the Chairman had put words in your mouth to say ? — A« 
 No ; but I will say that it struck me that sometimes you gave me a history of the 
 Canadian salmon, and you took up those points that resembled the British Columbia 
 salmon, and, of course, I could say nothing, except that it was so. 
 
 Q. But was it not correct ? — A. Oh, yes ; but you did not take up those we think 
 do not agree. 
 
 Q. Well, I will take them up now. 
 
 By Mr. Higgini* : 
 
 Q. I understand you know something about the Skeena River, Mr. Green 1 — A. 
 Yes ; I was up there last year. I went from the mouth to one of its principal sources. 
 
 Q. Does it fork at Hazelton ? — A. I was also up the larger fork. 
 
 Q. Were salmon running when you were up river 1 — A. Yes ; there were five species 
 running. I did not follow them up. I left one kind running up Jit the Forks and got 
 into another kind when I arrived at the lakes. I was at the Forks when the humpbacks 
 WHS running, but they had not arrived at Babine when I got there, and I was curious 
 to know if they were running so high from the sea. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, may I interrupt the witness — it may be said again that he was not sworn. 
 AVill you please take the book ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 Mr. Green was thereupon duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. What is the distance of Babine Lake from the coast? — A. I can hi'irdly tell you ; 
 about IGO to 180 miles. It is a very large lake, and it is full of salmon, accord- 
 ing to tlie Indians ; well, the salmon go there ; that is all tliat go by that fork. I did 
 not see the humpback, though the Indians tell me they go there.r,. 
 
 Q. Do they go beyond that 1 — A. No ; that is the limit of the lake ; it is a source, 
 you may say. 
 
 Q Are there any small tributaries ? — A. Oh, numbers. I did not visit any tribu- 
 taries of the Babine. I was principally employed at the mouth of Babine, and I was 
 thinking there must be immense quantities of salmon taken there ; the Indians have traps 
 in all directions. 
 
 Q. You say you saw five species ; can you enumerate them? — A. Certainly. There 
 is spring salmon, the sockeye, the cohoe, the humpback ; the cohoe and humpback I am 
 not certain a))Out, but I think the cohoe goes in. The dog-salmon and steel-head I also 
 observed, particularly because about here it is an early fish, and enters in January and 
 December, but there it does not enter until August generally. 
 
 Q. How many canneries are on the Skeena ? — A. I did not count them ; I think 
 six oi- eight. 
 
 Mr. Arm.strong. 
 
 -I think in the evidence it is given at eight. 
 
BRITISH COH'MBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 387 
 
 1892. 
 
 1 Higgins, 
 IS asked by 
 
 hat it was 
 
 ;o say ? — A» 
 story of the 
 li Columbia 
 
 ise we think 
 
 Green 1 — A. 
 lipal sources. 
 
 e five species 
 
 orks and got 
 
 e humpbacks 
 
 was curious 
 
 lis not sworn. 
 
 dly tell you ; 
 men, accord- 
 ork. I did 
 
 t is a source, 
 
 sit any tribu- 
 and I was 
 ns have traps 
 
 ainly. There 
 iipback I am 
 3l-head I also 
 Januaiy and 
 
 lem; I think 
 
 J{y Afr. Iliijijinx : ' 
 
 (}. Ts there any mnipliunt of scarcity of salmon tlu're ? — A. No evidence at all of it,, 
 C^. Wert' you there at the spawning srasou? — A. Yes. 
 
 Jiy Mt: Wi/niot : 
 (i. When was that .'- 
 
 Jiy Mr. J/l(/(fuis 
 
 A. Tlie end of .September. 
 
 Q. Was there any cvideiice of Hsli having died ! — A. Yes ; a tfood number. 
 
 Q. And were tliey still ruiiniiij,' when you left '. A. Yes, they wei'e still riiiniini,'. 
 I did not see any spring salmon ; their habits are so dillerent ; tliey are not likely to die ; 
 the ones I saw were partieulaily sockeyes and colioes. 
 
 Q. With rei;ard to the ditl'erenoe in salmon in the east and these, what do vou 
 think r -A. The only one bearing any resenililanee is tiie sj)ring salmon : that is the 
 only one. 
 
 Q. And yet the salmon in Kni,'land it resemi)les is a red salmon? A. The only 
 (Htiereuee, as I said yesterday, is that I do not th' ik the smolts are the same, and 
 nothing is ever found in otlier salmon. 
 
 Q. Have you ever ti'ied the tly here .' -\. Yes ; i)ut always for the eolioes ; not for 
 spring salmon. J never caught an adult salmon with llw tly : but then I have nev(!r 
 Hshed when it is in the river. I have caught adult salmon with phantom minnow : but 
 I never tried the lly but a few tinies, and then caught grilse. The cohoe I have taken 
 several times, and always at the head of tidal waters. I have lieen told they hav(f been 
 taken above tidal water. Tiie cohoes are a perfect nuisance ; they take your tly ; 1 once 
 took live. The lish I took were clean and bright, thougii not we'll developed. The 
 adult ones would not take the tly. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wiliuot : 
 
 Q. I shall not be wrong now, sii-, if T .say the character of salmon you are just 
 describing are very similar to other salmon ?"-.\. The sj)ring salmon are ; not the other 
 
 salmttn. 
 
 (}. You say you have caught grilse ? — A. Yes; f i om tive tfi .se\on pounds, T have 
 
 caught them. 
 
 l)ut male salmon that were 
 
 grilse?— A. These were 
 -A. I cannot 
 
 tj. Have you e\er seen any 
 male aiul female T caught. 
 
 t^. Would you catch any female grilsi^ of four pmnds weight? 
 remeiuljer. 1 tliink I caught one of seven pounds weight. 
 
 Q. Would not that be same as .salmon on Atlantic coast? — A. Yes ; very like. 
 
 Q. And is not the male one year in advance of the female in pro-creative work ? — A. 
 Yes ; .1 know the male .s;dmon is. I never .saw any grilses of dog-salmon or cohoes. The 
 spring salmon run according to their age, up to .seventy or eighty pftunds. 
 
 Q. The smolts only descend the river; they do not ascend? — A. No; I never 
 knew of one to do so. 
 
 Q. And at what period do grilse first com*; in the river after coming down as 
 smolts ?— A. That I cannot say. I have taken gi-il.se in April ; that is the earliest. 
 
 Q. Do you know the accepted idea that prevails in (ireat Ih'itain that <rrilse go 
 up very soon after being a smolt? -A. Yes; I know that in .some ca.ses it is very 
 short. Some smolts may go down in the fall and up in the spring as grilse. 
 
 Q. Then are not the character of grilse and spring salmon in Cowichan ]^i\er, very 
 like the English salmon ?— A. Yes ; they are very much alike. 
 
 Q. They come in the months of April, May, and June in eastern provinces, and 
 then spawn and go back again?— A. Yes. Here they come in December and January. 
 
 Q. Yes ; that is on account of their lieing so much winter? — A. Yes ; i)roba])ly. 
 
 il Ami you think spring salmon will take the ily at the proper time — wlien would 
 that be?— A. In January, Februaiy, and March, 1 shouUl say. 
 
 Q. When they come in first, they will take the tly readily ? — A. Oh, no ; not in 
 Skeena. They will in Cowichan. The water in the Skeena is too muddy. There are 
 some half dozen rivers in British Columl)ia where you can catch them with the fly. 
 lOc— 22 
 

 338 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 i}. Then HjKitlici' v'wt'V lik« the Cowicliuii, running into tlu- sea, would yivt- aiij{liii;; 
 s|ioit, if |)nutin'(l ? - A. Yt's. Tlit^ Niiiiiino Hivcr is iiiiittlici-. It is a juacticc tluMc tu 
 j,'<) lisliiii^' for folioes. Tt lias hccii for iiiiu' or ton years 1 iiicaii witli the lly. 
 
 Q. I think, sir, as far as niy knowledye goes, your Htatements are identical with 
 what you made yoteiday ? — A, Yes ; I don't see any difference, 
 
 C^. Illustrating more sti'on<(ly, perhaps, that the sjiiiiij^ salmon is quite like the 
 other salmon in the eastein jxovinees? — A. Yes; except the cohoe Hahuon. It 
 resembles grilse veiy much, lait afterwards get more of a larger sjjefues. 
 
 Q. l>o y<)U think cohoe a separate species of the salmon family with spring salmon ? 
 — A. No ; many things are alike, but his Hesh is drier and his bones aiul vertebrae are 
 diHerent his fins, etc. 
 
 ii. AVould it not be because he is slighter and smaller?- A. They vary much in 
 ditl'erent livers. 
 
 (.J. Then spring salmon is red when it comes in, but afterwards gets white in 
 flesh, and enteis in April, May, and .June? -A. Earlier in the Cowichan liiver ; in 
 January, 
 
 Q. And the cohoe?- A. In .June, but the cohoe is much whiter than the others. 
 
 Q. Y''es, but they change like the spring salmon ? — A. Yes, they do. 
 
 (^). The reason of asking these ([uestions, Mr. (ireen, is simjily to tind out infoima- 
 tion — you know in Kngland much wealth is made out of the rivers leased for angling 
 and in eastern Canada the .same way, but here- have you any rivers where this can be 
 done, l)ecause if so, you have another source of wealth which it would l)e advantageous 
 to foster? — A, Ye.'^, but I hope you will not tax me for having found it out. 
 
 UEOROE VIENNA, a native of (Jreece, lesiding in British Columbia since ISoS, 
 a fisherman for '2H years, was duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. J/i(/(/inn: 
 
 Q. Where do you fish when you are at home up the arm ? A. No, outside — not 
 in the arm at all. 
 
 Q. What do you fish with — small seines? — A, Nets of one and one-half inch mesh, 
 
 (^>, What do you catch? — A. Herring.s, flounders, .smelt, big .salmon. 
 
 Q, Do you catch a great many ? A. Sometimes. 
 
 (}. How long ago is it since you gave up going out to fish? — A. Twenty-three years 
 and 1 have been keeping store since, 
 
 Q, Do you tind fish getting scarce? — A. Sometimes, but if they get scarce we 
 change places, 
 
 Q, Are there plenty of fish now ? - A. Well, if they are caught every day the fish 
 get scarce. 
 
 Q. Y'ou think there is too much fishing? — A. Well, there are too many people 
 fishing. 
 
 Q. Do you get any fish from Puget Sound ?— A, Oh, sometimes — the oulachoii 
 principally, 
 
 Q, Small flounders ? — A. No, only oulachons, 
 
 Q. Do you l)uy any fish that are caught up the arm or in Esciuimalt Harbour ? — 
 A, No, we get them from Saanich and Cowichan sometimes. 
 
 Q. 1 wish you would show him the sizes of the mesh, Mr, Chairman, Mr, Wilmot 
 proceeded to show the witness the diagram on file showing the different relative sizes of 
 meshes. 
 
 hen 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wihiiut : 
 Q. AVell, which of those sizes do you use ? — A. I think we use all kinds of mesh 
 
 Jiy Mr Iliyybis : 
 Q, Do you ever use smaller than a half inch ? — A. \''es, for shrimps. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA KISIIRar O11MMIS8ION. 
 
 339 
 
 Q. What size (111 you use ill yiiur arts inoHtly .' A. \V«' use lu'riin^^ nets iiii»stly — 
 wf use III! kinds excfpt tlie Imlf-iiu-li sonu'tiines we use it, l»ut only for shriniiis, 
 
 ij. Wliiit <io yi»u f.'et in une and a quarter? A. ( )li, small kinlls. 
 
 Q. Ilerrinj,' and smelt / A. N'n, not at all. 
 
 Q. What kind of mesh have you in hay of the seine ? A. Oh, about one and a 
 quai'tei' in liaek side. 
 
 (/. Pfiint out which it will he? A. Well, sir ; I cannot tell from that (the diagram) 
 — if you show me the nets I will tell you. 
 
 ii. Did you ever «,'et tish from the arm years a;,'o .' A. Yes, F used to tish Uiyself 
 Uji the arm up as far as the .second hrirlj^e. 
 
 Q. Have you ever he.'n in Ks(|uimalt Harliour? A, Oh, yvH ; we used to draw 
 nets throu;;h the harhoui- liut now we cannot Hsh there ire too many lines. 
 
 % Mr. Wlhiiof : 
 
 ii. How do you know the ti.shiiif,' is reduced, from the tish you used to catch to 
 what you catch now ? — A. Well, we used to have •_*"» boats, t>ut now we have only a few. 
 
 Ill/ Mr. Arinstrony : 
 
 (J. Do fishermen catch any younj; Halnion in the nets now .' A. Yes ; of course if 
 they tind them they catch them. 
 
 I since 1858, 
 
 . Harbour? — 
 
 kinds of mesh 
 
 Mr. BEAUMONT HO(i(}S, a native of Nova Scotia, 7 years in Dritish Columbia, 
 a liroker, and resident of Victoria, wa.s duly sworn. 
 
 Jijj Mr. Wl/niot : 
 
 Q. What have you to submit to us, sir? A. I reside on the shore of Victoria 
 Arm. T take pleasure in trout fishing and since my residence in Victoria have fished in 
 Victoria Arm. Some tliree years ago, in April, 1887, I com})laiiu!d to Capt. Lewis, the 
 Dominion (illicor, of the .''act that nets wen; spread across the mouth of the Arm above 
 Point Everts liridge ; these nets )ir«'vented the trout, in my opinion, from reaching the 
 upper portion of the Arm which is the fishing ground. V\vm one occa'ion on ny 
 coming dow n in the morning in a canoe, I saw some Italian fishermen drawing their nets, 
 and I examined the fish that were in their nets, and among the number were (]uite a 
 number of t.out, I should say about half a pound, also flat fish, smelt, herrings, etc. 
 The practice of netting still goes on during the night on \'ictoria Arm. Only two 
 months ago I dispersed two pair of fishermen below my house engaged in .spreading their 
 nets. I was informed there was no officer here who could look after them, as the fish 
 iiisjH'ctor was at Westminster. 
 
 Q. How hmg ago was that? — A. Throe or four months ago, 1 think. 
 
 Q. JJefore you had any local officer here? — A. Yes. I believe it would add a great 
 attraction to our Arm if trout were put in then^ from the hatcheries and piott^cted for 
 a certain time and netting prohibited altoge'her. 
 
 Q. Is this Arm saline water ? — A. No; not altogethcM'. Two .small .streams run in. 
 
 Q. The sources of these s'^reams ai-e pure? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Gravelly bottom ? — A. Y'^es ; in some portions. 
 
 i.i. Are yt)U acquainted with streams in Nova Scotia? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do these resemble them ?— A. No ; I think not. The water is, I think, salty. 
 1 think the bottom in our eastern rivers has more vegetable matter ; that is not muddy, 
 but more leaves, etc. 
 
 (J. Small acquatic plants growing in them ? — A. Well, here there are some of them, 
 too. 
 
 Q. Would it be better if this stream was deprived of acquatic plants ? — A. Well, 
 [ don't know. 
 
 Q. Do you think these streams are adapted for the breeding of trout and that net- 
 ting is dimini.shing them? — A. Y'^es. 
 10c— 22i 
 
340 
 
 MARINE AND PISTIERIES. 
 
 3 
 
 Q. Arc you iicquaiiited witli the different iippeariiiices of young saliiiou and tlie 
 small trout ?--A. No ; I cannot say I am. I eould not say one was ynun,:; salnum nr 
 trout. 
 
 Q. Then some may liav<' l)een young salmon instead of trout? — A. They may he. 
 
 Q. And you think this netting should be prohibited ? A. Yes. I think it is not 
 e.xactly the number of tish that are taken as the number of tish that are killecl. T have 
 seen myself near my house great numbers of young Hsh floating belly up dead. 
 
 (^). Do you know what eaused their death? — A. No; it was during the days when 
 these fishermen were netting. 
 
 (,). Tt has been said that these fishermen draw their nets ashore and leave them 
 there to die?- -A. Well, T l»elie\e that is done. 
 
 Q. Tf you throw fish on shore is it likely to come alive '. — A. No. 
 
 Q. And the numl)er of fish thrown ashore beconie refuse and oflal ? — A. Yes. 
 
 (,). As an angler have you fished outside of this Arm? - A. I have tished on Sim's 
 Kiver running into Alberni Canal, and on Cowiehan River. 
 
 (^>. What fish did you eateh on Cowichan River? A. I eannot say T eaught very 
 nuieli : my luek was not very good. 
 
 Q. You got " water-hauls f" A. T am afraid they were "water-hauls." I have 
 seen good salmon eaught there with tht? rod and fiy. 
 
 Q. In what seasen would that be ? — A. I think in Aj)ril or ^fay. It is some 
 
 years ago. 
 
 (,). 
 
 len vou ai'e aware that salmon are caught in iJritish Columbia with the flv .' 
 —A. Yes. 
 
 Q. (Jocularly) And then that Englishman who .said it was a bad cmnitrv bp'-.i.se 
 they could not be caught with a My made a mistake? — A. Yes; the Sins (Esi!..is or 
 similar name) I'unning into Albei'ni Canal is really a fine angling ri\er. 
 
 (•i). And then from an angling stand-point do you think trout should be protected 
 in these rivers ; some .say they should be killed ofV, because they are desti'uctivi; to salmon 
 fry .'-A. Well, that is from a connnei'cial stand-pt»int. I think a large number of 
 persons, wealthy persons, visit this province for the object of sjjort, and if it was known 
 all the fish and game of this pi'ovince were exterminated they would seek .some other point. 
 
 (.^. And if pr(»tectc<l and encouraged it would add to the wealth and prosperity of 
 the countiy? A. I think .so. 
 
 Q. .\re you aware that there are fishery laws foi' the ])reser\ation of trout in 
 other countries?-— A. Yes; there is here, too, but there has been no one to see it was 
 cai'ried out. 
 
 ^Fr. WiLMOT. — Have the other comnussioners anything further to ask ? 
 
 ]\rr. .VinisTUONti. -No ; nothing further. 
 
 .Mr. A\'iLMOT. — Very well ; thaidc you, sii-. 
 
 ALKXANDEU DECUJ, a nativ(! of Scotlaml, four years in British CoUnvibia, and 
 forty or fitfy year.s in other parts of Canada, at jiresent a resident of \'ictoria, and engaged 
 in looking after colonization projects, in particular that of the Scotch Ci'ofters. 
 
 lii/ Mr. ]V!ln>of : 
 
 Q. .\re you, Mr. H gg, identified with the Croftei- immigration ? — A. T believe T am. 
 
 (}. Weil, Ic.ive you anything to state to tiiis Conmiission on the subjects under con- 
 sideration ? — A. 1 have not had much experience my.self in connection with salmon 
 fisiiing, because during the salmon fishing time T have been across in the old country 
 looking after the ]iroject engagcil in. 1 oidy know thoie are a great many kinds of 
 salmon put up, iuul know there must be a great deal of ofi'al come from those salmon, 
 and I have examined the oflV.l that came from the fish, as it was nude -stood that a 
 change was to be made in that regard. 1 also looked into tlu; manufacture of dog-fish 
 oil on the west coast, where that has been carried on for many years. f visited the oil 
 refinery or factory on Alberni Canal, and saw ho v the oil was manufacturefl there from 
 dogfish, and also visited the Skiddegate oil factory on <.^(ueen Cliarlotti- Island, ami also 
 
BRITISH CfiLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSIOX. 
 
 :{4i 
 
 nil aiul tlic 
 ; salnuiii Ml' 
 
 ?y may l)i'. 
 
 k it is nitt 
 
 led. T liavf> 
 
 1(1. 
 
 ilays when 
 
 l('a\'0 thfiu 
 
 . Yes. 
 
 ('(1 on SiiiTs 
 
 L'aii,i;lit very 
 
 ;." I havo 
 
 It is some 
 
 ritli th.' Hy ,' 
 
 itrv l>pi".r,se 
 ; (Hsu:. IS or 
 
 l)e jn-otccted 
 vo to salmdii 
 I imniiier of 
 was known 
 other ])oint. 
 )rosiH'rity of 
 
 of trout in 
 o see it was 
 
 olun"il)ia, and 
 ami, enj^aged 
 ers. 
 
 Ix'lieve 1 am. 
 
 ts under eon- 
 
 witli salmon 
 
 old counti'V 
 
 any kinds ot 
 
 hose salmon, 
 
 •stood that a 
 
 re ot' (lo^'-tisli 
 
 isited the oil 
 
 'd there tVom 
 
 and, and also 
 
 on the Queen Charlotte Islands visited the seal oil t'actoi-y on Comishaw Inlet. These fire 
 the principal oil faetories we have, liut they are iJrineipally for dtiij-tish oil. an<l the 
 refuse matter or .solid matter l)elonjiini( to that oil is thrown away entirely ; it is not 
 utilized. As soon as the oil is extracted hy steam it is Hoated up in cold water ; the oil 
 is very eflbetively extracted in that way, l)ut leaves the residue in a sort of ^ruel, and 
 so far it has l)een found impossil)le to solidify tiiat product, and so it is thrown away ; 
 they open a valve into the sea and let it away, so that is <|uite lost as far as we are con- 
 cerned. While I was (>xaminin.L( that matter, I want(>d to tind out the <litVerent con- 
 stituent mattens in fish that niitrht hi; utilized for inakin,u- oi! and lish i^uano. if that 
 could l)e done, so I i)rocured samples of the ditVerent kinds of iish. One was doLf-tish, 
 and I ]>ut it into a can or vessel ; 1 also yot part of a cod-tisli, sucii as would reniiun 
 after cleaning cod dish for market ; I juit that into another can marked ; I also yot some 
 salmon, and put heads and tails and entrails in the parcel ; 1 also yot some herrinii, and 
 iiad four samples, and brought them to ( )ltawa to have them analyzed, to see if we 
 could work tlnmi to advantage. The doy-iish, of course, we knew ahout here. \\'lien T 
 lirouyht them to Ottawa I found, rather to my disappointment, the ufeat Fvxperimental 
 Farm tliere would not look at tlieni ; they didn't thi;;l-- they had time to look at them, 
 and they asked me to take them away. Well, as 1 v'id not wantr to lose my time 
 altoijether, I thoii.Ljht I would tr\ the small ))roviiicial jiffair, and I went to the 
 Agricultural Department at Toront', -.nd called mion the Minister of Agriculture, and 
 he said very kindly tliat he would empiire from his Professor of Chemistry, and he sent 
 them on, so shortly afterwards, I got a report from Professor James, the I'heiuist. Tt 
 seems to he very fully lione into, and f^i\t!se\t'rythin.i;' very fully. ( Hands in document.) 
 
 <J. Is this the same as ajijjeared in the (.V</f>/n'.s)' the otiier day ? (See pj). Ill' and 
 lli5.) — A. Yes ; the same tliinj;, only it is more fully shown in that paper. 1 thou,L,'ht 
 it a very <,'ood report, hut lia\e not been able to do anythinjj; furt'iei' since. Still, it is 
 very evident from that re]K)it that Professoi' .lames is a very able man, and gave it u 
 good deal of attention, and J ha\e no doubt his \ iews are jiretty 'learly correct ; at the 
 same time, I do not think we have the machinerv t(» sei>arate tlie solid matter from the 
 Huid. 
 
 (}. }Ia\e you formed any oj)inion of your own aside from his re]iort ? A. I b(>- 
 lie\e it can be tloiie, Ijut the machinery to do this will take very exjiensiN-e maihinery, 
 and it may be that another way of extracting the oil from what is done here may be 
 used. At present we float the oil out by the intro('uction of water, but there may be 
 some other way that will be better and more easily worked, but it is found at present 
 that the oil from dog-fish, when I'ool, gets into a ki id of jelly, and so far, it has not been 
 worked profitably, and I ha\e no doubt those who work it on the I'raser River ha\e 
 found it to be correct. 
 
 Q. Ha\e you ever made estimates of what \voul<l bt> recpiired to put u)i an estab- 
 lishment for t!.^s purpose ! A. No : I have not got an estimate, but I think it would 
 be more expensi c than estimated — though they do manufacture this oil from tish offal 
 in Nornay wiiert> they have lieen for many years in that business, and I supjiose we 
 could v.-^'X from them .some information as to how it is managed. 
 
 ((». l)o you know if it has been sutliciently satisfactory to lie remunerative.' A. 
 Oh. yes ; they have lieen carrying it on for years, and unless remunerative, they would 
 not do it. It was also tried at Aberdeen, and they made all sorts of es.seiices, etc., etc., 
 but they had to give it up, because they could not get tlie supplies. Now, the same 
 thing would apply to the Fra.ser River, because, except (hiring the fishing time, there 
 would be no sujiply to carry on the work • the fishing only comiiiences in .lune and 
 •hily. and as soon as the fishing is over, of course, the oll'al is done. Now, it is different 
 on the west coast, where we have dog-tish and other fish, etc., and we would expect in 
 this scheme of colonization that the fishing would be going on all the year, and it would 
 be (piite difl'erenf to the l"'raser Ri\(>r. 
 
 (^). What about the fishing that is carried on after the sockeye run? Could not 
 these tish be utilized ? -A. Oh, yes : that was my intention in connection with this 
 colonization scheme all kinds would be utilized. If oil tish, they would be UM'd for 
 oil ; and if food fishes, they would be used for that imrpose. There would be no waste, 
 whereas in salmon fishing, it is only the choicest parts tliat are put up in cans, and, of 
 course, that makes it more difficult. 
 
■5» 
 
 I 
 
 342 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 «i 
 
 Q. Heave you ever seen reports as to the Aherdeen est.iblishiiient ?~ -A. T have seen 
 repoi'ts, l)Ut 1 oaiHiot say as to them. The great difhculty of that Aberdeen estal)lisli- 
 nient was that they eould not >^et supplied to keep going ; then the nia.cliinery was 
 exj)ensi\e, etc., but it is not so up north. V\y in Queen Cliarlottfi Tshinds oil factoi'ies 
 are still going on there, and they use all kinds of tisli to make fei'tilizer, that they cannot 
 use for anything else. I think it can be carried on, and in connection with this coloni- 
 zation scheme, with which F am coiniected, we have a .separate company which will look 
 after the tish altogetner -take them ort' the tishermen's hands, and see to the marketing 
 of them, and they will most likely after that part of it, see about the oil, etc. 
 
 (,). What inducements are you holding out to innnigrants coming here? — A. They 
 will have plenty of tishing and work to do, and will be paid for their work, and tliiit is 
 all a good indust.'ious man requires. We also have made arrangements for advancing 
 money to bring them out an<l establish themselves. 
 
 (.}. Hav(^ you spoke of tlie salmon fisheries? — A. No, we have been careful to a\did 
 any interference with existing interests- the object of this scheme is to establish new 
 industries and we do not wish to interfere at all with the salmon industry. 
 
 Q. What special manufactures do you anticipate? — A. Well, one of the special ones 
 was this oil I'etining, and then anything that I'omes in the way will be used, if not for 
 food for something else. Then another j)oint will be to preserve table tish by cold 
 storage. 
 
 (). Then you did hold out inducements that this was a large tisliing country .'- A. 
 1 told tliem there was plenty of tish and that they would have work in catching them — 
 and then the markets would hav<' to be found, and that is the object of this company 
 that has l)een formed to lind these markets. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. AmiKfi'diKi : 
 
 <i>. Do you know with expensi\e machinei-y you speak of that it can be carried on 
 succe.ssfully — that is the oil business ? — A. 1 think so — the oil — that pays. 
 
 Ill/ Mr. Willi, lit : 
 
 (^t. Do you say the oil pays ? A. Certainly it does — it pays the man at Serrat (;/ 
 and it pays at Clougli on Alberni Canal, only that they cannot get su])plies — the trouble 
 is the Indians will not work steady -they go ])icking (?) and other things, where as cur 
 ti.shermen could stay at the business and have work all the year round. 
 
 A'// }[r. A rmst riiii<i : 
 
 <i. Do you think tiie oil made from oil'al from canneries would pay ' — .V. I do not- 
 know if oil from salmou would pay alone, but I have no doubt that with proper 
 macliinery it wouhl ]iay from salmon oH'al, but on account of tlie short season it would 
 not pay on account of not Ix'ing al)le to get supplii's. 
 
 (^>. Well, from wliat they speak of lunnpback tish I think you should get plenty 
 of oil fi'om them ?~ A. AN'ell, I don't know if they are fat enough or if tiiere is any oil 
 in them. 
 
 /)// Mr. 11 iijiji iin : 
 
 (}. Well, wliile you were away getting tliis analysis made, did you en(|uiit' wlicif 
 you uere likely to have a market for this manure ! A. ^'es, 1 did and 1 i)elie\e tiiere 
 are parties wlio would l)e willing to take large (pumtities if they could get it at prices 
 paiil foi' orilinaiT maiuire. 
 
 (J. Was that in Hngland ? A. In the I'nited States too, and even in Canada we 
 find the lands are running out a good deal and retpiirt^ manure. i think that was the 
 object Professor .1.1 nil s had, l)ecause he thought it would be useful for the Dominion. 
 Tt is a manure of very line texturi> and would be easily absorbed by the ]ilant. 
 
 Q. NN'ith a \ it .\ to encourage Crofter inmiigrMtion and pi'o\ ide for people coming 
 here as a I'esult of that sclwrne you would naturally look into the cost of delivery, etc. 
 of this oil and manure and could you figure out a profit after deducting cost of transport, 
 etc. .' A. Tt is said tlu! value in Ontario is !<'.'A a ton, and that is a price on the basis of 
 
 
 what il wil 
 
 )rnu 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COM.MISSION . 
 
 3i-i 
 
 I have seen 
 L estal>lisli- 
 liintM-y was 
 lil factories 
 hey cannot 
 this coloni- 
 ■li will look 
 marketing 
 
 —A. They 
 and that is 
 • advancinff 
 
 till to a\()i(l 
 tahlisli new 
 
 special ones 
 1. it' not t'nr 
 ish hy colli 
 
 untry f A. 
 liny tlieni - 
 lis company 
 
 e canied on 
 
 It Serrat ( : / 
 -the trouble 
 vhere as (;ui' 
 
 \.. I do not 
 
 with proper 
 
 )n it would 
 
 1 uet plenty 
 ■e is anv oil 
 
 (|Uire whei'f 
 
 )eiie\t' tiiere 
 
 it at prices 
 
 Canada we 
 iiat was till' 
 e 1 )oniinion. 
 ut. 
 
 ipie coininj; 
 
 I'iivery. etc. 
 nt' t transport, 
 
 ! lie hasis oi 
 
 £ 
 
 Q. But wliat would it cost to get it there I — -A. Well, that is the price after all that 
 I fancy. 
 
 (^. Is not !?30 a ton the most paid for manure like that? — A. Yes, ahout tiiat. 
 
 Q. And would you have to send it aci'oss on the Canadian Pacific Itailway '. A. 
 Yes, I suppose so. 
 
 Q. And the freigiit would he ahout !<l-'> a ton more tlian it would sell for .' -A. 
 Well, T don't know f thiidv if the canneries tliought of going into it, tlie canneries 
 w<juld no doubt he willing to assist in getting the oH'al and delivering it in scows at 
 place of manufacture 
 
 <i. What did you tind the freight would he on the Canadian Pacific Railway / A. 
 Oh, well ; I did not go that far I made a certain allowance for freight, and so nnioh 
 for labour, etc. 
 
 Q. But I think it svoulil be necessaiy Ijefore counting in these things to find out 
 what it would cost to produce and what it would cost to get to market .' A. Well, that 
 would ha\e to l)e added to the cost of production. 
 
 y\y. JlicfiiNS. — Ihit you would only get about .S-'W a ton in Ontario foi' it. 
 
 ;Mr. WiLMor. Uut is it a fact that it costs %i') a ton to take freight down .' 
 
 //// Mr. I/i;/</iiis : 
 
 Q. Not every thing ; steel rails are the lowcjst ; slS a ton, and then you would have 
 to run a second train of cini-f/f-ca/ti;//!'' \n take, the smell (jut of the country. (Laughter) — - 
 A. Oh, it would be deodorized before it was shipped. I have been at three; factoiies - 
 at Skiddegate, at Cliaigh and i'.ui-rard Inlet, and there is not so much stench from them. 
 I don't know what the one is like on the Fraser Ki\'(>r. 
 
 ii. Do you know theiv were such factories in California, l)Ut they never paid, and 
 that every fertilizer estaijlislnnent on the Frasei' liiver has always failed .' -A. Well. T 
 don't know. I know these establishments at Skiddegate and other [ilaces I have men- 
 tioned have made money. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Ariiistrdiiii : 
 
 (}. How many Crofters do you exiiect to bring out .' -A. Well, we at first thought 
 1,.')00 families, but that wcudd imt do on account of the cost to liring them here, ami we 
 have got the sanction of the (ioverinnent to reduce the numlx'r to 1,000 and tliat would 
 give £1.'")0 to each family. We do not intend to interfere with any residents. Chinamen 
 or others. 
 
 A'y Mr. //i;/</)ii-i : 
 
 (}. Have vou ever sent communications to the l)e[)artment of Fisheries iit ()ttawa 
 in regard to the manufacture of this oti'al ? A. Yes; I believe I did so. 
 
 (}. Did they do any thing.' A. Xo ; tlu-y were very careful not to go intoittliem- 
 sflves. I think as far as the residue is concerned, when the oil is taken out and properly 
 steamed, it does not seem to be so vcM'y offensive ; the great triaible about the odour is 
 that tish ;ire allowed to stay too long liefore l)eing steamed. 1 think after the steaming 
 piMcess commences it takes away the olfensiveness. 
 
 (). The offensiveness is then created in the cannery f— A. 1 don't know, but if fish 
 are allowed to stay even a .short time, it soon connneiu-es to foment and putrify ; that is 
 the reason 1 want to get them t.iken away in the same day. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any market for this oil in I'.ritish Columliia.' .\. Wt 11, they 
 sell the dog-tish oil very ficely here for many purposes. The salmon oil, 1 should think, 
 would l)eavery digestible oil ; the Indians eat the salmon oil : the other from dog-tish 
 cannot Ite eaten. The salmon oil C(udd l)e used foi- leather making. It is not so very 
 offensive and can lie deodorized. When 1 was in London, I found there was a place 
 where all the dead hoi'ses were colle.ted and they were! used up in all manner <if ways. 
 The rtesh is useil for cat-meat and the liones are taki-n in a reloi't,an(l they make oil out, 
 of it, and after it is clarified and I'etined. vou rould not tell it fromolivi- oil, and 1 lhiid< 
 the salmon oil would be \ery Hue. 
 
 (}. Did yon ever offer to put any ca[)ital into the business, Mr. Uegg .' -A. Yes ; j 
 did ^o once, 
 
'•'ii 
 
 344 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. Did you over iipply for a lioiius from tlu' Doiniiiion (lovornnient ?^A. Well, I 
 tliouylit it wiis necessary for us to ii(i\p a l)oiius ; it was also proposed that canneiTiiicn 
 should help in workiiii; it. 
 
 (j|. \\'hat did the Dominion (iovcrnmont roply to your request ! — A. Oh, tliey did'nt 
 do anything. They arc; not likely to do much on anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. And you never enipiired what freight would be on the Canadian Taeific Rail- 
 way? — A. No, 1 did not. 1 do think there would lie a fair field in the .south for 
 the manure for tobacco raising, etc. I think S\0 a ton was the jirice to bi^ given and 
 with my figures, I think thei'e would lie no reason for it not succeeding if the cannery- 
 men would h(>lp in the matter. 
 
 Q. Have vou ever eaten Lindjurgher or blown butter.' — A. 1 do not know, pei'haps 
 1 luue. 
 
 Q. Do you think this tish oil could be used for other juirposes? A. Well, I do 
 not know, perliaps it could ; it could l)e rectified : 1 remend)ei' in that place where the 
 oil from bones of horses was made that it came out as clear as could be. 
 
 Q. Did y(tu taste it .' — A. No: I did not. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. Wihinil : 
 
 (,>. You know coal oil is very offensive in its crude state? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you know that by deodoriziiii;' and cleansing it can be made into the finest 
 aiticles on the market ? A. F do, sii-. 
 
 <^. And you think, if ]irojii'rly treated, a good article could be made from those 
 fish? — A. Yes, J do; f think the oil tan be claritied ; and espet-ially the oulachon 
 AVould make an excellent oil. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. //ii/(/i)ix : 
 
 (^>. I do not suppose!, iNIi'. liegg, if you Mere in the cannery business you would feel 
 tliat you were treated rightly if the (ioxernment or any other ]>ower compelled you to 
 convert that oii'al into oil or sonu'thing else, at a loss?— A. Well, I don't know ; I don't 
 suppose the (io\ crnmeiit will insist uiion them producing oil and guano from them. ] 
 understand all they insist upon is that it shall not he thrown into the rivers; 1 am not 
 aware that they insist ujion it being con\('rted into oil or guano. 
 
 /,'// Mr. Wilhint : 
 
 (}. As you ha\(' lieen asked if you were a caiuier, now, if you wvvv a farmer, what 
 would you do? — A. I would certaiidy comitlain about them. 
 .Mr. ^\'IL\lOT." That will ofl'-set the other. 
 
 /If/ Mr. nUjifhis : 
 
 Q. ^Yell, I will give you another : if, as is supposed. Mr. I'egg, you lived along a 
 slough which was almost stagnant and where all the refuse from kitchens and closets 
 were throw II in, would ynu drink that water and e.xpect to enjoy good liealth, e\('n with 
 the addition of a little whiskey? — A. No, [ wnuld not, even with a little whiskey in it, 
 but I undei'stand the Fraser llivei- i.s a large stream and has a rapid current and all 
 stuir like that would be carried off. 
 
 (}. No, sir: 1 am talking of a sluggish slough almost stagnant, and 1 am asking 
 y<iu a (piestion, if, aftei' drinking that watei', would you wondei' at peoj)le getting 
 typhoid fe\ei' ? — A, No. 1 would not. 
 
 A'y Mr. Wlfi.mf : 
 
 (J. Hut if bef<. re the canneries were put thiM'e and no ofl'al was thrown in? A. 1 
 sliould think the ot^'al wiadd lielp it. 
 
 Mr. Hua;i\s. Hut suppose before these canneries were there, theie were no 
 inhabitants to suifer from it and even then the water was stagnant and undi'inkable. ,. - 
 
 TVlr. Wii.MOT. ( )h, well, nexerminfl: with the otfal it has got woisc ; before it 
 was not so bad I sup[)ose ; let us get on with business. 
 
 Mr. l>K(ai. -T have nothing further to submit to the Commission. 
 
BRITISH COLUMIUA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 345 
 
 . AVcll, T 
 ineiTiiifii 
 
 lev t 
 
 lid'iit 
 
 ;ific UuW- 
 
 soutli for 
 
 ^'ivcu iiml 
 
 ' caniiery- 
 
 V, ])orliiq>s 
 
 A'.'ll, T do 
 \\liere the 
 
 tlic tiiicst 
 
 t'l'oin tlinsc 
 ' ouliii'lion 
 
 would ft'd 
 lied voii to 
 sv : T don't 
 I tlit'in. I 
 : I iuii not 
 
 ■incr. wlijit 
 
 ■(■(! along a 
 
 id clost'ts 
 
 cNcn with 
 
 isUt'v in it, 
 
 nt and ail 
 
 am asking 
 lie u't'tting 
 
 in 
 
 ; A. I 
 
 r Wi'l'C no 
 inkaMc. 
 ; lict'oic it 
 
 Mr. Hi<;(;ixs. — T wish Mr. Ladncr to lii- i-alifd. 
 
 Mf. Wii.MoT. -1 would draw the attention ot' the Connnission to the fact that ^\r. 
 LadiuM- has hccii uj) t wo or thrt'c tinii's. (To the C'onnnissionei's) NN'hal do you say, 
 geiitlenuMi ? 
 
 Mf. Ward (ffom audience). I would say, Mr. Chairman, that you stated last 
 lught that if any gentleman had anything t'urther to s;iy you would liear him. I 
 thought of matters after giving mine tiiat i would like to gi\e at furllier length. 
 
 Mr. Ai(M.sTiiON(i. Well, if we heai' you, .Mr. Ward, why we will liaxc to allow 
 every one to c(Mne again, and we are not going to stay here day after day to hear the 
 same story repeated over and over. 
 
 Mr. Wahi). It is very apjiarent then. .MV. Chairman, that it is not intended to 
 make this emiuiry exhaustive. We certainly e.\|)eeted that the Connnission, when here, 
 would l)e willing to get all information of value. Now. I know myself I ha\e thought 
 f)f matters since giving my evidence the other day which i wctuld like to state to the 
 Commissioners, hut if you don't want to hear it. why all right; hut — i think 
 
 Mr. Al{Ms'i'i!o\<;, -M r. Ciiairman, 1 am opposed to tliis. M i-. jjadner has i'een 
 heard hefore, and I think we should not go on allowing evcrv one to come up as ciflen as 
 they want to, and go ovei' the same story. 
 
 Mr. WaI{I).-~ You don't want a full en(pni'y. it is olixious ; you don't want to hear 
 all mattei's. 
 
 -Mr. .VuMSTiiONC Well, you wei-e here on the stand. AN'hy could you not put 
 matters in then ! We allowed you to put in papers and anything you like. 
 
 Mr. NN'ahd.- A'et 1 do thiid< after a witness has heiMi examined, T think if more 
 evidence occurs to him. and it may lie very important, I think it should be taken a^ain. 
 Now what are we to infer .' We come here day after "lay, anil we hear othei' men giv ing 
 their evidence, and ([uestions which may not have ln'cn put to us lead us to a line of 
 thought on certain points, etc. 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMO'i'. AVell, tlien^ is no use nuiking a spcecii aliout it. I must call you, 
 sir. to order. The rule was estal)lished that we would not heai' witnesses I'epeatedly. 
 Mr. Ijadner has already hi'en uj) two or three times, if Mr. Ladner is allowed to come 
 here, Mr. Ward will come again. 
 
 Ml'. \\'ahI). I don't want to, sir. I would not come. I can well miderstand the 
 Chairman woidd not want to hear me again. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, pt-i'ha]is I would not he in the mind to let you do so, 
 
 Mr. Ht(a;iNs. Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. T have a woril to say. That rule was 
 broken this afternoon. I think 1 should havi' a word t<i say. Mi'. ( !reen was called 
 this afternoon, l otier .Mr. Ladner as .m import.mt witness on important matter. If 
 important evideiu;e can he olitained from a witness what does it matter if he is called 
 lialf a dozen times. I certainly say that we should heai' Mr. Ladner. 
 
 Mr. AliMSTlioMi. Well, hut Mr. Ilig;:ins, yovi know we cannot yo on hearing 
 everybody that comes alon:;. The Hshermen in Westminster didn't ask for this. 
 
 .Mr. Wli.MOT. I think we shouhl keeji to the rule. Mr. Ladnei- has already been 
 heard two or three time.s. and if we hear him :'gain we will only have to go, over the 
 whole thing with most of tiie other witnesses h.-re. 
 
 Well, T put it to the rman! what do ve.i say, gentlemen, shall .Mr. Ladner be re- 
 heard '. 
 
 Mr. .Vk.m.sihom;. i s;iv no. 
 
 Mv. W'li.Mor. 1 say lu.. 
 
 .Mr. }lt(a;iNs. I siy y«';v 
 
 Mr. HuaiiNs. — That wil! -iiik. Mr. l.adnei. the Connnission i-efu.ses to hear you. 
 
 Mr. Wahii. Centleiiien. let me sav that you re-called Mv Kwen half a dozen times 
 and Mr'. Port two.ti' three times m New Westminster, wid 1 consider this isdisgraceful ; 
 your actions in eonduetiiig tfe imniiry are >lw«iiieful. 
 
 Mr. AVkmoi. — ( h'der, sir; I call yt>u to "«Jer. 
 
 Mr. Wahi> (contemptuously I. < >h, yes; I will Wee] v order. 
 
 y\\\ .Xhmstkom;. Let me t.i41 v««m. Mr. AV'*r<l. v'lu .-ire not runningthis Commission. 
 
 .\h'. \Vahi> (excitedly ). -No ; I don't want t(». 1 shall not bother you. I tell you 
 ]iublielv, you are acting disgracefully. However, w^- are done with you foi' giKwl ; for I 
 know. I for one. -.hall not Jiittend youi mt-ting- again. 
 
346 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 (Mr. Ward, fioc(tnipani(Hl, i)y hoiiie others, luM-e left the room. Keniarks were inau- 
 dible, owiiij:; to moie or less noise, and several persons speaking at the same time.) 
 
 Mr. AinisTHONc. — I move that this Commission adjourn altogetiier. 
 
 Yki: W'li.MOT. Shall we adjourn -meeting again on ^[oiulay morning — if these 
 gentlemen have any new evidence to give t 
 
 ^[r. AuMsTKONd. Xo witnesses over again. Tf you liavt; any new witnesses, we 
 w.'ll hear them, hut not the same persons over again. 
 
 Mv. .1. H. Todd. -lUit, gentlemen, is is really your intention to forhid any person 
 su} plementing his evidenee in any way, if this Commission continues sitting? 
 
 Mr. Ak.m.sti:ox(i. -Well, l)ut ^fr. Todd, liow long will this go on? You never saw 
 such .1 thing allowed in any court in the country. 
 
 Mr Todd. — Well, 1 have been present in a good many courts where counsel ha.s 
 re-cii-led the same witness to give fresh evidence on the same case. 
 
 Mr. Ainis'K'ONC V 'ell, just give me an instajice. 
 
 ^Fr. Todd. I canni'f cite an instaiu-e otf-liand, but T will iict y(ai 8100 that it is 
 often done. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. -'I'liis is not a betting connnunity, sir. Well, gentlemen, shall we 
 adjourn until .Monday uiorning or not / What do you say 'I 
 
 .Mr. Hn;(ii\.s. Yes ; till Monday morning. 
 
 -Mr. AHM.STiiON(;. — W.eli, but are there any new witne.sses ? T was prepared to 
 finish u|) here to-day, and adjourn from her(? to Nanaimo, or elsewhere. 
 
 ^[r. Wii.MO'i'. Then F suggest that we adjourn till ^Fonday morning, if we have 
 new evidence. 
 
 ^Fr. HiiioiNs. -Well, Mi'. Chairman, F have new evidence from .Mr. Fjadner, but if 
 he cannot coi.ie, T will call another witne.ss. I will telegraph for him, if neces.sary, and 
 have him down. 
 
 .Mr. Wii.MoT. — Well, that is all right. 
 
 Mr. HuaiiNS. - Tt is not all right, it is all wrong. You are both acting in a 
 harsh, arbitrary manner, and I am very sorry that I accepted a seat at this l)oard, after 
 the way I ha\e seen matters conducted h(>i'e. You are both acting altogether ^vrong. 
 
 The Cliairman declared the Connnission ailjourned at 0.40 p.m., until 10 a.m.. 
 on .Monday, 7th ^Farch, 1S!J2, at the same place. 
 
 F5oAi!D OF Thadk Rooms, 
 
 VicTOHiA, B.C., 7th :\Farch, 1S<Jl>. 
 
 J/iiiii I in/ Si's'siiiil. 
 l lie Commission was coiiNcncd and <all<>d to order at 1(J. 1-") a.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. Wiluiot, in the Chair; Commissioners Higgins and Armstrong, 
 and .Mr. -iecretary Winter. 
 
 * 
 
 Mr. NN'ii.MOT. l)efoie any business is transacted, I wish, gentlenien, to read to you 
 the following statement : — 
 
 ".Mr. NVilmot begs to submit for the considei.itioii of his associate Coinniission'^i's 
 of this lioyal Fishery Commission, app<tinted to investigate matters in relation to the 
 salmon and other tisheiies of l>ritish Columbia, tiie following, \iz. : 
 
 "That this C'onunission having l)een formed by the i)ominion (iovernment for the 
 purjioses above mentioneil, but nuire |)articularly as regards the salmon fisheries on the 
 I'raser l{i\-er, where almost th(> wIkjU- of the complaints have originated which Jiroughi 
 about the- appointment of the Connnission, and as the sittings of the Commission have 
 been openly held there in the court house and t<iwii hall during t<'n days, in which some 
 fifty or si.xty witnesses, compiising canners, fishermen, and others, were hearil in relation to 
 tlie above mentioned complaints : iiiid as the Commission adjourned to the city of \'ic- 
 toria to obtain further information, and has had four days sittings in the I'oom occupied 
 by the Itoard of Trade, an<l has taUen evidence from canners, their agents and l)rokei's, 
 tishermeh and others, and as no furl her new evidence is forthcoming, it is expedient in 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HKRY COMMISSIO.V. 
 
 347 
 
 were inau- 
 time.) 
 
 ^ — if theso 
 
 tuesses, we 
 
 any person 
 
 I never saw 
 
 counsel has 
 
 U tliat it is 
 3n, shall we 
 
 ]irepare(l l<j 
 
 it' we ha\e 
 
 idner, but if 
 cessary, and 
 
 aetinf,' m a 
 hoard, after 
 er wrong, 
 itil 10 a.m.. 
 
 1, 1892. 
 
 .Vi'ui.stronL;', 
 
 I'cad to you 
 
 nuiiissioni^r< 
 ation to tlie 
 
 lent for ih'' 
 erii's on the 
 lirh hroujihi 
 lission ha\i' 
 
 whieh souM' 
 in relation to 
 
 eity of N i''- 
 
 iin occupied 
 uid l)rokers, 
 
 'XjM'dient ill 
 
 the iuterests of the British CoUunhia Fishini; fndustry tliat this Conunission should now 
 adjourn to meet at Xanaiuio on Wednesday ne.xt, unless fcaind neces.sary to extend the 
 time; and that this Conunission then adjourn to the city of Vancoiucr (or Xanainio) 
 most suitable to ]\[r. Iligi,diis in. his otlicial ca{)acity as Speaker, for Friday and Satur- 
 day, from thenc(! an adjournmei:t to New Westminster to wind up the business of the 
 Conunission with the view to making an t-arly report to the (Jovernment, so that- the 
 Departnu'ut of Fisheries may be enaltled to alter or ameiul the present regulation.s to 
 conserve the geni>ral interests of the cannei'vmen, Hshermen, and others of the pul)lic, 
 for the protection of tiie tishing iiKkistr'y of tiie pi'uvince of Ihitish CoUuubia. It is 
 understood tiiat whichever place of adjournment (to Nanaimo or Vancouvei-), shall be 
 made upon the days mentioned as most convenient to Mr. Higgins, and that telegraphic 
 despatches be sent at once giving nf)tice of the meetings." 
 
 3lr. Wii.>',o'r (continuing). — 1 put that forth as exiilanatt)ry of our ])rogrannnt! of 
 Ijusiness. I submit this for your consideration. 
 
 Mr. Hiiaaxs.^ Let it lie over ]\lr. W'ilmot for a few minutes. I would ask that 
 the Secretai'v read over his notes of Saturday's evidence in regard to the discussion upon 
 tlie question of rehearing Mr. Ladner. 
 
 The Skckkt.vuv. — i would say, sir, in explanation before reading from my notes 
 that much of the discussion in reference to Mr. liadner was very animated and from the 
 fact of the tendency for se\('ral jiersons to speak at oiu'c and the mori' or less tunfusion 
 resulting therefrom, as well as the fact that much w;is not evidence direct ; some person's 
 I'emarks may \)(' found wanting in my rejjort. 
 
 ^Ii'. Hi<a;iNs. — I wish it read ms you ha\e it, in your notes; that part refei'ring to 
 ^Ir. Ladiu'r. 
 
 The Secretaiy thereujion read o\ei' tiie jioition of Satui'day's e\ idence referring to 
 tlie ([uestioii of hearing Mr. Ijadner. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Are the ilinutes correct .' 
 
 Mr. HKuiiNs.- r ha\e no fault to find with tliem. (Continuing). T lal)Our under a 
 disadvantage, as you are aware, to hear this evitleiu'c of this Commission. I wrote the 
 department to say tluit I cimld n<it leave Victoria until l")th April, to sit on this Com- 
 mission, and was obliged to let several of the sittings go l)y default : of coui'se, it will bii 
 onsidered that the majority of the Conunission were present, l)ut I was obliged t<) let 
 many of tliem lapse. I may say 1 have not heai'd Mr. Ladner's e\idence yet, and he 
 is liere under his own ex[)ense in the city and he has new evidence to give. Now, T put 
 it to you, gentlemen, that f want to hear this evidence. I cannot giv<' a verdict upon 
 the repoi't without the evidence from Mr. Ladner. T have thougiit over it and I think 
 the Conunission shoidd yield this point to me, and so I can form an opinion. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. AN'ell, T may state for ytair infonnation that T have instructed the 
 Stenograhper to get up as many pjsges as can l)e given you to-day and F thii\k Mr. 
 Ladner's and others will l)e included in them. 
 
 Mr. HlfaiiNS.- Yes, but 1 want to hear Mr. Ladner's new evidence, and I know in 
 courts of law it is often the case. 
 
 .Mr. AkmsthoNi;. But Mr. Ladner lias been called tiiree times. 
 
 ]\ir. Mkjoins. - Well, but still even if called tliiee or four times what matter he 
 has new e\idenci! and F wish to hear it. 
 
 Mr. AuM.sTiiON'f;. — I (juite agree with you, Mr. lliggins, but I don't see how we 
 can come to a satisfactory conclusion l)efore we arriM' at any conclusion. 
 
 Mr. Jli(i(ii.\s. r>ut, I do not see liow we can come to any conclusion witliout the 
 exidence.' 
 
 Mr. W'lL.MOT. No, of courNc wc <'aiihot arri\t' at a conclusion with(Uit it. 
 
 Ml'. HliaiiNS. AVell, but here is Mr. Ladner's evidencf — that we would not have. 
 I will [dedge my word to Mi', Wilmot and you (to .Mr. Armstrong) that I will not ask 
 .Mr. Ladner any but new ([Uestions. 
 
 Mr. Akm.s'ihon'c.- Now ^Ir. Higgins, y(ai ilo not know where this will i-m\ if we 
 allow ^Ir. Ladner lo come we will lia\' to allow many others. Now, it is not the rule 
 in a court T have known cases where coun.^el has had privilege of re-calling witnesses, 
 but he must state his (juestion, and it is optional whether the juilge will allow it or not. 
 
w^ 
 
 A' 
 
 348 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Hkjuix.s. — But this is ;i jiuUiic ciuiuiry — there is no thiiil party. But T will 
 say, call .Mr. Ladiier, and iin (tther man will he called. 
 
 Mr. Ai!MSTii(»N(i. AVcli, F object to it. These j)eoj)I<' knew perfectly well this 
 Commission was ,tti>in<,' to be held — tliey have known it in Victoria for two weeks, and 
 they ha\e nut attended t(» their business if they don't know. 
 
 .Mr. Jlli;(iiNS. Ihit, Mr. Ladnei- is a ri\er man. 
 
 yiv. AiiMSTHONd. — Well, he has been here thi'ee or four times. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. -T tind, Mr. Mitfj^ins, your statement is perfectly corrt-ct and that 
 you wrote the (le])artment on the 'Jlst January that yuu could not leave Victoria to sit 
 on the Commission until loth April, owini,' tn your duties in tlie Legislative Assembly. 
 The Minister was away from home at the time and 1 tclegraplu'd him, and I want to 
 show that there is no attempt to do anything out of rea.soii in connection with the 
 fisheries of this ]ii'o\ince- I state this so the province will not take a wrong view of 
 the actual case. Now, 1 lind from this tile of papers, containing the whole record of the 
 case, that on 2()th January, this mes.sage was sent to Lt.-Col. Prior and T. Earle, ^l.P.'s. 
 
 " A\'ould l)e greatly o))liged if you would let me know if new Connnissioners are 
 T'cjuly to act at once, if they are, ^Ir. AN'ilmot will go to British Columbia without delay 
 — if not, it will be nece.ssary to cancel connnission as far as this sea.son is concerned. 
 
 (Signed) CHABLES H. Tl^PPEB. 
 
 And in reply to this, the following answer was received : — 
 
 •' Victoi'ia, 27th January — New Commissionei's ready to act — cannot you send one 
 from depai'tment who is unbias.sed - AN'iimots opinion already formed. 
 
 (Sd.) THOS. EABLE, E. G. PBIOB. 
 
 To this the ^linister replied fiom Halifax, 29th January: — 
 
 "Answer Earle and Prior in my name, and say Mr. Wilmot is in my opinion the 
 most competent othcei' in the department, and on no condition would I name another 
 for the jiurpose. 
 
 (.Sd.) CHABLES H. TUPPEB. 
 
 Mr. AVii.MoT (continuing). T wish t(j be {jarticular and precise, l)ecause thei-e seems 
 to l)e very strong feelings here, and I wish if there is anydoul)t in the matter, it should 
 rest in the right place and not in the wrong one. Then, after receipt of Mr. Higgin's 
 letter, stating he could not sit until aftei- the l^tli April, unless the meetings were held 
 in Victoria, 1 telegraphed the Minister as follows :-- 
 
 "2nd February. — Higgins writes required as Speaker in Victoria till loth Ajiril. 
 If Connnissioners sit there can attend meetings. Information sent you to avoid jiossible 
 complications. Shall F i)roceed at once .'" <Jh, previous to this, I tind on tlie l\Ox\\ 
 January, messages wei'e s-nt to l)oth .Mr. Ann.strong at \ew Westminster and Mr. 
 Higgins at Victoria : 
 
 " AVill leave here to meet the Commi.ssion early next week. 
 
 (Sd.) " S. WILMOT." 
 
 Then on tlie 2nd February, in reply to my message of the same day, the Ministei' wired 
 me as follows : — 
 
 " Proceeil British Columbia and hasten proceedings of Connnission. 
 
 "CHABLES H. TUPPEB." 
 
 On the journey over from Ottawa, of course, I telegraphed to Mr. Armstrong, at West- 
 minster, being the tir.st place at which the cars would stop : — ■ 
 
 " Ha\e you made any ai'rangenients for meeting at Westminster or Victoria?" 
 And the answer was : " Call at Westminster,'' and I did so. I then tried to make 
 arrangements where we could organize, and I ran back and forward two or three times 
 between Westminster and Victoria to get the Commissi<jners together, and at last suc- 
 ceeded, and Mr. Higgins came to Westminster on Thui'sday morning, IDth February, 
 and we proceeded to work Friday and Saturday, from 10 a.m., t(j 10 p.m. ]Mr. Higgins 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 349 
 
 Avas anxious to get along as uuich as possiljle and so wcio we. Mr. Higgins liad tln-n 
 to fonie to Victoria to attend to Parliamentary business ; there was no ohjeotion to pro- 
 ceeding with the business. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiNs. — None whatever. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT.— We then proceeded with the business all the following week and 
 *-,hen came over here. We have been hert! four days, and at times it has been diHicult 
 to get witnesses together. Then Mr. Ladner was asked to give furtlier evidence. We 
 made a rule at tlu! beginning to not hear a witness a second time, and F think tlie 
 matter has been carried on very fairly all the way through ; but an inijiression seems to 
 have prevailed among many of the canners that the chairman has been to() self inter- 
 ested in putting ([uestions to witne.s.ses 
 
 .Mr. ]{iTiii:'i'. No, sir; no, no. 
 
 Pardon me, sir : T am addressing the Hoard. 
 
 Yes : but we are going to deny anything not correct that w(' hear. 
 Well, I submit this pajjcr end)odying my views as to the further 
 )usiness (referring to statement handed in and read at opening of 
 Now, in this case of Mr. Ladners, unless exceptionally new matter 
 
 yiv. WlI.MOT. 
 Ml-. KlTMKT. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MoT. 
 carrying on of the 
 days proceedings), 
 
 Mr. Hkkiins. — Well, we are very nnich obliged to you, Mr. ('hairman, for your very 
 true history of the carrying on of the business ; but you have avoided the real matter at 
 issue. ^Ir. Ladner's evidence is very important, and I do not think you are treating me 
 right in not hearing this evidence. Why should T be deprived of hearing this witness? 
 i cannot make u|) my mind as (juick as you gentlemen. 
 
 ^Ir. AuM.STi{ON(i. — Thank you, sir, thank you. 
 
 y\r. HHiciNS. — Well, T really cannot see why you cannot allow me to hear him. 
 
 ~Mv. Ak.mstkono. — Well, I have no doubt that if this evidence is heai'd in We.st- 
 minster, there would b(i a great many penjile there, too, who would wish to come 
 forward, and then I do not think it would throw any particular light upon this matter. 
 
 ^[r. Hnaaxs. — Well, I must say, if T iiad sutHcient spirit, which every one knows 
 I ha\e not, I would retire from this IJoard at once. You will not hear my witness. 
 Then the Commission is sitting at the wrong tine of the year altogether. 1 have been 
 unable to hear much of the evidence, being obliged by my other duties to be absent. 
 
 Mr. Ai{XSTi{oX(i. — Well, excuse me. We caimot go on hearing the same jjcrsons 
 over and over again, and if we allow one, we will have to allow many. IVsides, Mr. 
 Ladner has been heard several times already. 
 
 Mr. W11..MOI'. — One matter I must correct, and that is this : on behalf of the 
 Government who were instrumental in forming this Connnission, at the rec^uest of all 
 the memliers of Parliament of British Columl)ia, you .should not make remarks that it 
 is the wrong time for the Commission to sit. This thing has been urged for some thi'ee 
 or four years, and I think this is the third .set of Connnissioners who have been appointed 
 but who would not act, and then after appointment, the Minister wired ^Messrs. Earle 
 and Pi-ior, M.P.'s for Victoria : " Woukl be greatly obliged if you would let me know if 
 new Commissioners ready to act. " Now, what was the reply to that? ^bssi's. Earle 
 and Prior stated : '" Fishery Commissioners ready to act."' Thereupon, the Minister 
 telegraphed Mr. Wilmot U> proceed at once. Now, if they were not ready, or anything 
 was in the way of the Commission going on to business, why could they not telegraph 
 and tell us. And I think that everything has been d<me that could have been done in the 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. Hicfiixs. — T have no complaint to make, and although T think the Government 
 lias d )ne everything they could, but here I am not allowed to hear my witness. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, we are here as public persons, ]\Ii\ Higgins, and not as private 
 persons. 
 
 Mr. Akmhtrox(;. — Well, I think if Mr. Ladner wanted to give evidence, he could 
 have given it in New Westminster. 
 
 Mr. Hl<:(iixs. — Well, will you hear him in New Westminster ? 
 
 Mr. ARMSTROXfi. We will consider it if he comes u}) there. 
 
 Mr. W^ILMOT. — If Mr. Ladner asks to be heard at Westminster, and if a majoritf 
 of the Board says he will be heard, he will be received. 
 
 

 '» 
 
 860 
 
 MARINB AND FISHBRIE9. 
 
 Mr. HifKMNS. — oil, tie, jNIr. Wilmot, I enter my prote^st iipiinst these proceedini^s. 
 T will liii\t' it out ut OttiiwH, if T lia\'e to f(o there und jmy my own expenses. An 
 unjust pi'oceedin;,', that I fim not to l»e un the same fttotiiij^ as you othei' <,'»'ntlemen. 
 
 Mr. Ai!MSTUoN(i. It was youid\sii fault, sif ; why could you not have attended 
 the sessions ,' 
 
 .Mr. Ili<ii;i\s. Well, you know very well my (tther duties iiave prevented lue. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT, — I think none of you fjontlenien ha\e any complaint to nuike of me. 
 I have always been on hand. 
 
 .Mr. AiiMsTifoN'fi. Well, have you any witnesHe.s ? 
 
 Ml-. Ukkmns. Well, T call Mr. Fjadner. Tf you ohject to it, I want it to go on the 
 Minutes. Is Mr. Ladner's evidence objei'teil to? 
 
 Mr. Aioi.sTHoNo. Objected to. 
 
 .Mr. AN'lLMoT. Ohjected to. 
 
 Mr. lll(;(ilNS. — Very well, Mr. Ladner, it is declined to hear you. 
 
 ]Mr. Wii.MOT. — Well, now al)(jut this matter wliich I have laid before you, I 
 thought it should be before idl the I'oard. Xow, in re','ar<l to our adjournment to 
 Kaiiaiiiio or N'ancian ef, as fai' as I am concerned, it will be maile to suit the conveni- 
 ence of Mr. F[ij,'gins, either on I'^riday or vSaturday. We have heard that evidence will 
 be forlhcomiiii^ at those ])!uces. 
 
 Mr. Ai!MSTi(o\(;. I am williiii; to leave it to Mr. Hig^fins's convenience. 
 
 ]Mr. Hi(i(ii\s Well, T think 1 can be at Nanaimo on Saturday. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — l>ut my pro])osition was that we adjourn to-day to commence at 
 Nanaimo on Weihiesilay ; tlicKjfore, if we adjourn to-day to meet either at Nanaimo or 
 A^incouver at your convenience, we will send telegraphic despatches to these })laces 
 that the Commission will commence at a certain time at these points. 
 
 Mr. UliioiNs. -Well, but I cannot l)e there. 
 
 Mr. A\'ii,MoT. AN'ell, liut cannot you say if you will be at Nanaimo or \'ancouver 
 on I'riday or Saturday? 
 
 .Mr. AinisTUoNc;. --I^ut if Mr. Wilmot is to have sittings at both places this week, 
 1 think Nanaimo is the most important ])lac(^ and I would prefer we all met tlieie. 
 
 3Ir. Ili(;<ii\.s.- On Saturday? 
 
 ]Mr. AHMSTi!0\(i.^Ye.s, on Saturday. I think there is more fishing round Nanaimo 
 than VaiK'ouver. 
 
 Mr. W 1 1, MOT. — Well, gentlcMiien. I am at your disposal. If you think it is neces- 
 sary to wait until Friday or Saturday, all right. T woukl also like to suggest to my 
 brother Commissioners that it will be imixirtant tor the Commission to get down the 
 Eraser River and .see these localities we have heard of; I tliink we should do so. 
 
 Mr. Ahm.stkono. — Yes, I tliink we should go there. 
 
 Mr. HiooiNs (jocularly). Well, in consideration of Mr. Armstrong's toe, I think 
 we sliould go where he says. 
 
 Mr. AHMSTR0N(i. — But is it not possible, Mr. Higgins, you could make it convenient 
 to come and go down the river with us. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(ii\s. — 1 could go on Sunday. 
 
 Mr. Aumstronc;. — T object to that decidedly ; we cannot go on public business on 
 Sunday. 
 
 Mr. Hl(i(!iNs, — Oh, then we will take a chaplain. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Well, gentlemen, now where will we say. Which will you prefer, 
 Nanaimo or Vancouver? 
 
 Mr. Hkuun.s. — I cannot be there on Wednesday ; well, 1 raise no (piestion ; set 
 youi' own time and place; I can be at one place on either Friday or Saturday. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — T think it will be most important for the Commission to sit at 
 Nanaimo or N'ancouver. There; are important sea fisheries there, but if you do not 
 think it advisable to go there, why say so. T am perfectly well aware that cannerymen 
 and others are looking forward anxiously to the report from the Commission, and I 
 think we should expedite business. 
 
 Mr. Hnidixs. — Well, I think I will go to Vancouver. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Well, then we shall record that the Commission will adjourn to-day 
 to meet at Nanaimo on Wednesday and then adjourn to A'ancouver at 1 p.m., on Friday. 
 
)roceedini,'s. 
 
 lerisfs. All 
 itlciiicii. 
 e attended 
 
 ed me. 
 
 I Hike of me. 
 
 () go oil the 
 
 Pore you, I 
 Lirniueiit to 
 lie coiiveni- 
 .ideiiee will 
 
 Jiiimeuce at 
 V^aiwiiino or 
 hese plaees 
 
 A'aiieouver 
 
 ; this week, 
 theie. 
 
 d Naiuiiiiio 
 
 it is rieces- 
 gest tt) my 
 t down the 
 ) so. 
 
 oe, T thiidc 
 
 convenient 
 
 business on 
 
 y'ou prefei', 
 
 sstion ; set 
 
 \ to sit at 
 you do not 
 annerymen 
 ion, and I 
 
 lurn to-day 
 on Friday. 
 
 BRITISH COLU.MniA FISIIERT COMMISSION. 
 
 351 
 
 Mr. AuMsTitoNo. -T think .Mr. Ili;;i,'iiis should come to Nanaimo. 
 
 Mr. Iliofiivs. T |(refer to go to N'ancouver. 
 
 Mr. W'li.MoT. And that telegrai.hic desiiatches be .sent to the iiajiei's at Nanaimo 
 and Vancouver giving notice to that eU'ect. 
 
 .Mr. AuMSTUONfi. -It would lie iiii|)ortaiit to insert in the notice where we should 
 nie(!t at tlio.se places. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. — -Can any gentleman give us any information ahout tlie.se places 
 when; we could meet? 
 
 Mr. Humixs. — Could you not .say Saturday at \'ancou\er? *• 
 
 .Mr. W 1 1- MOT. Well, 1 niakc! this pro])osition^tliat we meet at A'ancouver at 1 
 p.m. on Friday and take such evidence as will otVer. l)Ut that the evidence will he read 
 over to Mr. Higgins the following day. 
 
 .Mr. lirniKT. -1 svish to he called to give evidence on a point on which I did imt 
 gi\(' tsvidence the other day. 
 
 Mr. Al{.MSTi{ON(i. — We have not settled this jioint yet. 
 
 .Mr. PuTiiKT. Oh, I thought you had. 
 
 Mr. AinisTitONo. I think we should meet Saturday at lO a.m., at N'jincouver, and 
 Nanaimo at 10 a.m., Wednesday. 
 
 Mr. liiTiiKT. I repeat my (|uestion to lie heard u]ion a point upon which I was not 
 (juestioned wIkmi 1 gaxc evidence. 
 
 Mr. Au.MSTHON(i. — It is the same (juestion. 
 
 Mr. HiTiiKT. — Oh, no; it is (\\uU^ a ditferent matter — I would not ask the Com- 
 mission to hi', put on the stand on the same (iuesti<in, but it is upon a matter which was 
 not i)ut to me which was put to others — it is but one point. 
 
 Ml'. .Vini.sTiioNc;. -Oh, no; if we hear you we will have to hear otheis. 
 
 INlr. Wii.MoT. — Yes, if the rule is once broken there can be no deviations from it, 
 an<l as Mr. Armstrong has stated tli(( other day, if any one has anything to .say let him 
 put it in writing but it has been decided 
 
 Mr. ]lii;(iiNs.— I think if .Mr. Kitliet 
 
 Mr. Wir.MOT.--If Mr. Hithet has a 
 
 Mr. Kitiii;t.- -l)Ut I want to give this under oath as other e\idenct 
 
 Mr. Hkjuin.s. — Oh, well; you can put it in writing and thtMi make an athdavit 
 under oath before a magistrates. (Continuing — perusing evidence given at Westminster). 
 Now here it has been stated that no one was called the second time, and hero is the 
 evidence that at Westminster, ^Ir. Port was called a second time and heard. 
 
 Mv. Wilmot. — IC.Kactly, but the majority of the Board consented to it — in the pre- 
 .sent case the majority of the Board do not consent to it. 
 
 Mr. BiTiiKT. — AVell, but if you are not going to heai' me, can you be surprised that 
 we have such opinions of this Commission'/ 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Well, Mr. llithet, when any man comes forward to give evidence 
 we ask him his name, etc., and then he is asked if he has any matters to state to us. 
 
 Mr. RiTiiKT. — Yes, I remember that, but this point has arisen to me sulxsecpient to 
 my giving my evidence — I was riot cros.s-cjuestioned on this point, and 1 heard it gi\en 
 Ijy other jjarties, and it was not given as intended to be given. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, but how can you give a statement under oath to contradict 
 another man's evidence 1 
 
 Mr. Hi(i<iixs. What ? Why Port has done this in Westminster. 
 
 Mr. lliTEiK'r. — I am going to give my statement from tigures. My lipplication is 
 noted both by the press and the stenograjiher for the commission — I have done my 
 duty- -1 will have further to say about it later. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — We regret very much sir, to say that we must adhere to the majo 
 rity wislies of the Commission. 
 
 Mr. RiTUET. — My application is declined — am I to understand it to that effect? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Your application is declined. 
 
 Mr. RiTiiET. — (sarcastically). Thank you, sir. 
 
 Mr. Huuiix.s. — Well, I wish it inserted in the minutes that I vote for everybody 
 being heard. 
 
 that no one can be heard twice, 
 has evidence he should lus heard, 
 mything to give us K't him put it in writing. 
 
 has l)een ^iven. 
 
 fli 
 
 

 ^b 
 
 IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-S) 
 
 1.0 
 
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 ■so "^^ R^HI 
 
 ^ ■;£ 12.0 
 
 IL25 i 1.4 
 
 — 6" 
 
 I; 
 
 1.6 
 
 
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 Hiotographic 
 
 Sciences 
 Corporation 
 
 23 WEi;r MAIN STRUT 
 
 WIBSTtSR t^fV. ?45SO 
 
 (716) %77-4S,<t> 
 
 -^\^ 
 
 ^ 
 
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 C\ 
 
 \ 
 
 <^\ ^\ 
 
 4^ 
 

 ^ 
 
Ir: 
 
 352 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Akmsthonc. I fear if we allowed these persons to be heard they would incri- 
 minate earii other. 
 
 Mr. Wir.MOT. — If the (juestion arose ainon<j; some i<.jnorant fishermen or persons not 
 conversant witli the ruh's of public oi-der, but here are <jentlemen \ersed in matters con- 
 nected with the conduct of public business, and if we heard all persons repeatedly, why 
 it would take all summer. 
 
 Mr. KrniET. — But I am in order, sir. T come to speak on facts. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — -And it is equally advisable for the authority to say they shall not 
 be heani? 
 
 Mr. Hnicixs. — How would it do for us to adjourn and take legal advice upon the 
 matter 1 
 
 Ml'. Ahmsthon*;. — Well, but we could call in all the legal men in the city, and 
 would you have them discussing these matters? 
 
 Mr. Hi<i(iiNs.- -Yes ; have everybody who could give us information. 
 
 Mr. AnMMTH0\<;. Well, that perhaps would be all right. I know they would not 
 agree. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, is there any further evidence? 
 
 Mr. .T. H. Todd. — ^T wish to be permitted to [>ut in tiiis paper as evidence, the 5th 
 annual report of the State lioard of Fish Commissioners to the (fovernor of Oregon, 
 published by authority, 1891. (8ee pp. 10 and 11.) 
 
 MATTHEW JOHNSTON, a native of Scotland, 2S years in British Columl)ia, 
 a resident of Victoi'ia, and manager of the British Columbia Canning Company, was 
 duly sworn. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — AVell, sir? — A. I would like to .say something on the question of 
 the impression as to prtjfits made by canners. T have seen it told that the profits are 
 something enormous : but having been connected with canneries since 1876,1 am in a 
 j'osition to say that is a wrong impression. It is a very fluctuating business ; some years 
 fair profits aie made, and other years no profits are made, and in the years 1884 and 
 188"), the losses were so heavy, and the business in such a bad state tluat many canneries 
 suspended -some went to the wall altogethei', an<l never I'esumed operations. We have 
 now to compete with Alaska, where fish is packed cheaper than we can pack, and it is 
 only by keeping up our reputation that we can make any profits at all. Last year, I 
 venture to say, the canners will not make any profit, or if any, extremely small, and 
 this year the pi'ospects are not nmch better. I saw it stated that ."?.5,000 would equip a 
 cannery or build a cannery. That is utterly wrong. I think if it was stated 825,000, 
 as about an average, it would be nearer the mark. Then, besides the actual capital 
 invested in the canneries, the plant and buildings, etc., one must be provided 
 with working capital, which is a very large sum, and T think that stateuient about 
 85,000 altogether wrong. That is all I have to say on the subject of the impression 
 which I see abroad. 
 
 Mr. Akmstuon'*;. — Well, you see the statement in that case was a mistake ; you see 
 another man was altogether wrong. — A. Well, it was not a mistake; that is another 
 way of putting it. 
 
 Jh/ Mr. Vri/niof : 
 
 Q. Anything further, sir? — A. Not on that subject. I have something further to 
 say on the subject of licenses. Last year, as I understand, the regulations that the»de- 
 partment intended to enf<jrce was fair enough : that is, that each cannery should have a 
 certain number of boats. That in principle seems right enough, but a nundier of ))uild- 
 ings, not cannei'ies, obtained licenses also, and those licen.ses were rea'ly u.sed for other 
 canneiies altogether. I thought that was an injustice to us at the time, and protested 
 to the department. 
 
 Q. You protested at the time ? — A. I protested to the Fisheries Inspect(»r at New 
 Westminster, anil I believe the department did not intend that tho.se licenses should be 
 issued. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION 
 
 36J 
 
 ouUl incri- 
 
 persniiH iiot 
 Hitters con- 
 itetUy, why 
 
 sy shall not 
 le upon the 
 B city, and 
 
 r would not 
 
 ice, the nth 
 of Oregon, 
 
 1 Columbia, 
 nipany, was 
 
 question of 
 Vi profits are 
 , I ain in a 
 ; some years 
 s 1S84 and 
 iiy canneries 
 We have 
 k, and it is 
 jast year, I 
 
 small, and 
 Duld equip a 
 ted e-'o.OOO, 
 
 ual capital 
 )e provided 
 luient about 
 
 impression 
 
 ike ; you see 
 is another 
 
 ig further to 
 that the»de- 
 jould have a 
 ber of l)uild- 
 >ed for other 
 ul protested 
 
 ctor at New 
 es should bo 
 
 Q. You say you think the de])artment did not intend these Hcenses to be issued for 
 these new canneries? — A. No ; I do not think it did. 
 
 Q. Could you f^ive your reasons, Mr. Johnston ? -A. WfU, I Juid a telegram from 
 Mr. Earle on the subject, which I can get if necessaiy. 
 
 Q. Oh, no ; your word is sufficient. -A. It is a telegram in which he stated that 
 only those canneries iu operation should ha\e licenses, l)ut they were not obsei'ved. I 
 think if the principle was observetl of giving each cainiety in actual operation a certain 
 number of licenses twenty-five we ho{)e to get — and only give those licenses to caimers 
 actually engaged in business, 1 think the car ners would be satisfied. As to fishermen, I 
 think tliat if suggestions already made that those licenses should be given only to actual 
 fishermen, and one for eacii boat, made not transfei-able, but the license fee to \y(t equal, 
 that we would find that system would woik without injury to any one. 
 
 Q. Then 1 understand, ^Ir. tlcthnston, that you complaiij that additional licenses 
 were grantefl for a nund)er that you wer(( sui)posed to obtain, to other parties, meidy 
 for the purpose of getting licenses? — A. I do not say for mere j)Uipose of getting 
 licenses, Imt they were not running. At the time I made this complaint, they were not 
 in operation. 
 
 Q. Tlie object was then to get the double iuind)er ? — A. They were ])ut up anyway. 
 
 Q. I renuMnber, Mr. .Johnston, healing that licenses had been given to persons who 
 had simply put up a cannery for the \iew of getting a double set of licenses — that was 
 one of tlie views in Ottawa, but T don't know. — A. T wns going to say that another year 
 thev adopted the principle of issuing licenses according to the capacity of canneries, but 
 I think we were al)le to convince the dejiartment that was a wrong principle, and, as far 
 as we were concerned, they gave way and increased our licenses. Of course, if capacity 
 was to b(^ taken, we were n-ady to increase oui' capacity to any on tiie river, and we 
 claim rights on the river because we were established as .soon, if not before any other 
 cannery. I may say I represent five canneries in the ja-ovince. 
 
 Q. Could you give the names if convenient? — A. I represent canneries both on 
 the Fraser River and northern rivers. Of course, I am not an exjiert, and f do not 
 think I need submit my views on the oftal question, except that I know our canneries 
 do not hurt any <me by depositing it in the river. 
 
 Q. The rea.son I asked the names — A. (^h, the names. On the Fraser River, 
 " Dee.side ;" on Rivers Inlet, one is known as " Rivers Inlet Cannery "' and '■ Victoria 
 Cannery," and we have a fishery there as well known as the "Standard "" (?) or " Wind- 
 sor" (?) fishery : on the 8keena, we have the " Aberdeen, " and on the Xaas ]{iver, we 
 have a caniu'ry known as the " Naas River." 
 
 Q. What is the name on the Skeena ? -A. The Windsor Cannery. 
 
 Q. The new cannery ? — A. No; it has l)een in operation ; it is situated farthest up. 
 
 Q. How many licen.ses do you get for that cannery? — A. Twenty-two, 1 think. 
 We had an ecpial number with others. 
 
 (.^. I think other partitas stated about forty ? 
 
 Ihj Mr. Armstrong : 
 Q. Is Mr. Dempster numager up there? I think we have his figures? — A. Yes 
 he is manager of that cannery. 
 
 B)f Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 (}. Are seines used in any of these rivers? — A. No ; o*ily gill-nets. 
 
 (}. Seining is not carried on .' -No. 
 
 C^. Your statement is that you hope to get twenty-five licenses. Do you consider 
 that is sufficient to run your estal)li.shment? — A. No; we would recpure to get outside 
 boats beyond that. 
 
 Q. bo I understand you that you would throw open to the river the building of as 
 numy canneries as people might desire, or do you wish to exclude others from building 
 there beyond what is now built ? A. Well, if it lay with me, F wouhl exclude more 
 canneries. 
 
 Q. Well, .sir, that is an important matter which has come before the department 
 and this Couunissit)n. It has been represented that if new ones were built it would 
 
 lOc— 23 
 
F 
 
 ■f. 
 
 •It.- , 
 
 354 
 
 MARINE ANIl FISHERIES. 
 
 efli-ft ti'.ulc iic'iorfilly imd (•(iiinnt'rc*'. Well, iu»\v, if t w«Mity Hvc would Ik- all you ask 
 for, and tlicic were forty L-uiiiicries built iiistt-iid of twrnty-two, how would that 
 afl'ett you .' A. I iiiiii^'iiu' it wouM \w a case of the "survival of the fittest." 
 
 (^. Well, you can reulily understand it has been aditHcult matter foi- the authorities 
 to deiide. Persons eontend that they should be allowetl to build as many as they like. 
 
 liif Mr. A niixtrini(j : 
 
 Q. Do you think all lanneries on the Fiaser IJivci' should have the same nundie-ol" 
 license;? A. T think .so ; that i.s, we should not ha\e less thc'm any other cannery. 
 
 Jtij Mr. \l'ih)io(: 
 
 Q. And how about the otheis? A. Well, \'^' want to be on the same footing; as 
 c :hers. 
 
 <^. You want twenty-fiv*' l)oats, and licenses should be i,d\en to (ishermen who are 
 Jlritish subjects .' A. Yes. 
 
 (^. And if all these licenses were issued, it would make a jrreat nund)er, and if (ish- 
 ermen ,1,'ot all, would it not affect the river? A. 1 think thei'c should be a certain nundier. 
 
 <i). What number would you say? — A. I think if the rej^ulation was maintained as 
 to distance where net-* arc jiut in the rivei', you could limit the itoats that c(»uld tish on 
 the river. 
 
 (}. Could you linnt th«' boats to certain distances when tish are comin<j; in? -A. 
 Well, there are re<,'ulations to that eflect. 
 
 (^>. Yes : but when a lar^'c run of lish is cominjf in, you could und(U-stand it v.ould 
 be veiy hai'd to kee|> tlie lioats so fai- apart, and thus it is neces.sary to make a certain 
 number ."(OO or (iOO. Would that be sutlicient to protect the river?- A. Well, as 1 
 have stilted before, 1 tliiid< the licen.se.s — so many j,'iven to each cannery, and fees made 
 e(|ual, and other restrictions, will i)revent there beinjj; too many boats, and would be 
 suthcient to protect the fishinj,' intei-ests of the liver. 
 
 Q. You ar-e not desirous of goinj,' into the offal »|uestion? A. No. 
 
 Q. 15ut I miu;ht ask what are your views cm the effect of thr'owinjf in this offal on 
 fish or the human farrrily ? A. Well, as regards the huirran fanrily, I think if I was a 
 resident at certain ])arts, 1 should not care to be a resident, but in other parts, I think 
 it .should not effect. 
 
 (i. How do^s it affect the town of IVlta ? A. Well, our offal does not r-each there. 
 
 Q. lUrt we arc s]teaking of offal generally ? A. Well, I anr not prejiar-ed to give an 
 answer as i-egar-ds the Delta. 
 
 Q. Well, if your- cannery was situated ther-e ? A. I would like to have an oppor'- 
 tunity of observing Hr-st, befor-e I answer that cjuestion. 
 
 (i. Have you foi'med any views as regar-ds the correctrress of the close season ? — A. 
 I h.ive not forrrred any views. Our- nranager-s have expr'essed themselves .satisfied with 
 the present regulations as it seerrrs to work very well. 
 
 Q. It has been represerrted that it is unfair- that pai-t of the Sunday should lie 
 allowed for- cai-i'ving on (ishirrg. Marry tislrer-rnerr have respect for Sunday as a day of 
 rest, etc., while there is fishing orr that day ; marry thirrk it should ter-minate at I'J 
 o'clock? .\. Well, T can only e.\i>r-e.ss the general view of our- tisher'tirerr, namely, that 
 the ]ir-e.sent r-egulation is found to work well. 
 
 (}. You think the li(-errses should be non-tr-ansferable ? — A. 1 think not. 
 
 Q. A rrd the fees also should be alike? A. Yes; for the Fra.ser- liiver-, fi.slienrreri 
 and camiers alike. 
 
 Q. Well, as regards the Skeena and Naas lliver-? A. T think the j)resent rule 
 should govern, but if hatchei-ies ar-e put up, T would be diffei-ent. Now, at liivers Trrlet 
 one might be i)Ut up. 
 
 Q. Oh, 1 for-got to ask you that (jue.stion. What do you thirrk of the effect of 
 hatcheries .' — A. I am rrot able to give an opirriorr orr that subject. 
 
 ij. l>ut what do the rrrost of the fisher-nrerr and others think. You, as an e.xperierrced 
 
 man, arrd having a good deal to<lo with the Hsher-ie.s, could you not te 
 
 us 
 
 A. Well. tli( 
 
 general opinion is that it (-arrrrot do any har-rn and rrray do a good tleal of go(Kl, but 1 di 
 rrot think we ar-«' in a jio.sitiorr yet to give arry decided o|)iniori upon it. 
 
all ynu ask 
 would that 
 
 le authorities 
 as tliey like. 
 
 ue iiuuilteioi 
 ;aiiiiery. 
 
 le footinj: as 
 
 men who aie 
 
 r, and if fisli- 
 •tain nuiidier. 
 iiaintained as 
 fould tish on 
 
 nn*; in 
 
 -A. 
 
 Land it v.ould 
 ake a certain 
 \. Well, as I 
 .nd fees made 
 md would 1)1' 
 
 this offal Oil 
 
 nk if I was a 
 
 arts, T think 
 
 it reach there, 
 •ed to give an 
 
 live an oppor- 
 
 season '? — A. 
 atistied with 
 
 iiy should 1m' 
 
 y as a day of 
 
 iiinate at 1:.' 
 
 nannily, that 
 
 »t. 
 
 er, lishennen 
 
 present rule 
 Hivers Inlet 
 
 the effect of 
 
 n experienced 
 A. Well, the 
 imkI, hut 1 di' 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA KISHERV OOMMI.SSIO.V. 
 
 355 
 
 ii. Hut you woulil like one at Rivers lidet .' — A. I think it might lie considei-ed. 
 It might not l)e found a good place for one, i)ut I think the ipiestion of hatcheries for 
 the northern rivers should lie conside?'ed. 
 
 (^. Can you tell us the average cati-h of your canneries / AVhut was the nuniliei' of 
 lish taken in the cannery to make your output .' A. 1 am sorry to say my knowledge 
 of that is not siiHicient to enalile me to give any correct answei'. 
 
 ii. lUit t-ould you not say from infoiinati<in you have from your workmen .' A. 
 Well, r have heard, I think, it takes aliout lO or 12 tish to a case ; hut I could get this 
 information, as we record in our hooks the catch of each lioat, and that hook is at the 
 disp<isal of "the Commission if they re(|inre it. 
 
 Q. It would lie well if you could transciilie from that hook the average nuudier 
 foi' the last few yeais ; the ohject of tht^ Connnission is to get all infoi'mation possihle 
 Ujion this i|Ucstion : 1 have iiotice<l that many think the ohject of the de|iai'tmciit is to 
 curtail as much as possihle the working of this great industry, hut it is tpiite incorrect : 
 the de|)artment does not desire to curtail at all this gi-eat industi-y. Ila\e you anything 
 nmi-e to say. Mr. .lohnston, on ariv <tf the leailing (|uestions '.' A. No: I have nothing 
 further to say. 
 
 /tij Mr. //i(/f/l)is : 
 
 Q. Ma\(' you had any expeiienc<' in estahhshing an oilery or estalilishment for 
 taking care of this oil'al ? A. We conti'ihiited offal fi'om our cannery foi' two years, lint 
 we had no interest in the factory lieyond putting .SOU in it ftir the piivilege of heing 
 allowed to give them our offal. 
 
 (J. Doyou know the result of that oilery.' A. 1 have no personal knowledge, hut 
 I ha\e heard it was not a succe.ss. 
 
 Q. H<iw long ago was that/ -A. T heard it last year, hut 1 «lid not think they in- 
 tended doing it again. We j)ai(l them 8oO tor receiving it Jind deliveied it. 
 
 Q. Did they make tish manure out of it '. A. No ; I think they only made some tiil. 
 ' Q. Can you give amount of capital invested in canneries on the Fraser Hiver 
 particularlv ? — A. Well, it is infor nation I shoidd not like to give an answei' off-hand. 
 
 Q. When could you giv*' it later on in the day ? -A. f think .so. 
 
 ('i. Would that he admissihle. Mr. Chairinan ? 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Well, if he wishes to give this in writing. 
 
 INIr. HnaiiNS. T would jirefer it heing gncn in evidence. I think it would lie 
 inconsistent with our juactice to ]\,i\v it sworn to. We can adj<iurn now, and Mr. 
 J(jlinston can come hack again. 
 
 /lij Mr. Wlhiiitt : 
 
 Q. AVill it answer your puqio.se, sir, to come again .' A. Any time, sir, it answers 
 your purpose, I shall he glad to come in. 
 
 Mr. HloiilNS. 0\\\y that I cannot he here to hear yon. 
 \ Mr. WiLMoT. We 1, hut if he gave it in writing, wouid it not do? 
 
 ^Ir. Hkkiins. — Yes ; 1 jiresuine it would. What I require al.so, Mr. Johnston I 
 wtiuhl re(|uire the amount given for rolling cajiital to keep matters going. 
 
 Mr. Wll-MOT. Well, if he gives <ither canneries, it will reipiire cross-examination. 
 It might recpiire investigation on account tif other canneries. 
 
 Mr. Hl(;(iiNH. Well, hut never mind the exjienses of other canneries we want the 
 amount of capital invested, i ask him his opinion of the value of capital invested on 
 the Fraser Itiver. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Well, then, if he only gives an opinion, it will come in as inftirma- 
 
 tion only. 
 
 ;Mr. HlociNS.- Well, hut that is what we want to get at. 
 
 Hy Mr. Wilnmf : 
 Q. Have you anything further to say —Would you prefer to put it in writing or 
 appear hefore the hoard I A. .lust whatever .suits you, sir. 
 
 Ill/ Mr. Armsfroii;/ . 
 g. Very well ; put it in writing. -A. Very well ; it will he put in. 
 lOc— 23J 
 
356 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 FUANCrS 1*A(JE, a iiiitive (.f .Stot'un«l, in Biitisli C.liunhia sinw 1802, a 
 merciiaiit, and n'siik'nt <if Victoria, was iluly sworn. 
 
 Jiy Mr. W'dmut : 
 
 Q. HavD you aMytliin^ to submit tct tiiis Couunission ? -A. Well, I wish to submit 
 the annual inventory of one of the canneries i n tlie Fraser River, in which I am 
 interested, with amount of stock we carry over, amount of plant, etc. 
 
 (I. Wliat caiuiery is tliat, sir? A. The " Wellin<,'ton" is one and the "l)eita" 
 also. 
 
 <.^. IJoth on the Fraser River? A^'s : one at the mouth of Canoe Pass, aiul the 
 other at Colithuan S ou^'h. 
 
 Q. You are interested as j)roprietor, are you ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, if you have any sugjfestion to make ? -A. T would merely wish to show 
 the amount of money invested in a cannery, buildings and jilant, and stock cairied over 
 and steam-boat. 
 
 Q. Would you call a steam-boat as part f»f the plant ? A. ^N'ell, no ; but it is i)art 
 of the whole. T would give buildings and machineiy and material carried over. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by material carried over ? A. Well, the material we coulil 
 not use during tim season. 
 
 (j. Not the actual goods carried over? — A. Oh, n(». 
 
 Q. AVell, now, value of buildings and m.ichinery ? 
 maehin«'ry, !?{),.'').'iO ; material for making cans, etc.. !?1 4,098 
 mess house, ij^GT ; steamer, i?3,000 ; total, )?41,89-J. The laiu 
 acre, but to-day it is worth .*.*)00 for the purposes we use it. 
 
 v. Buildings, .>?14,0r.5: 
 office furniture, ^'I'-Vl ; 
 we valued at .^l.")0 an 
 
 lijf Mr. Arnistromi : 
 
 Q. How much land have you got? — A. Fifteen acres. 
 Q. Oh, but you do not re(|uii'e that much land for a cannery ? 
 it is retjuired ; the land is needed for Indians' houses, etc. 
 
 t^. How much for tlie " Delta" cannery ? A. Five acres. 
 
 -A. Well, most of 
 
 By Mr. Jfli/(/ins : 
 Q. What is the total of that? — A. .$41,892, and that is all capital lying idle. 
 
 />// Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. How do you mean lying idle ? — A. Well, we have to carry it over for next 
 season. 
 
 Q, Can you tell us how many cans of fish you sold last year? — A. I cannot tell you, 
 sir, but I couhl find it out from our agent. 
 
 Q. If 1 tell you, sir, cannot I come pretty nearly correct?- -A. T don't know. 
 
 Q. You say the "Wellington" is one? A. Yes, and the "Delta." ( 
 
 Q. Now, cannot you give us an idea; there were 12,870 cases recorded as coming 
 out of the " Delta" the year before last ; has value of property increased since 1890 to 
 1891 ? — A. I think it has increa.sed. 
 
 Q. "Well, what was value in 1890? — A. W'ell, this money is what the cannery 
 cost us. 
 
 Q. Do you say this is invested here or investetl last year ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Anil you say land is increasing ? — A. This is an inventory of the property. 
 
 Q. Precisely, and yctu say it was worth so rimch in 1891 ; now, what was it wortJi 
 in 1S90?- A. We have not valued it at any more tlian we did a year ago. 
 
 Q. Well, what was your invoice a year ago ? — A. I have not got it here ; the land 
 of course increased ; the values are the .same ; the building.s, etc. 
 
 Q. Well, we will let that ilrop ; can you tell us the value of the stock, the canned 
 salmon, as made at "Wellington" cannery? — A. Well, that is a very hard thing to say; 
 it depemls how much you jiay for your fish. 
 
 (.J. Yes ; but if persons kee]) such an accurate account they would surely gi\e 
 figures of pack ? 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHEHT COMMISSION. 
 
 8BT 
 
 V 1802, a 
 
 1 to submit 
 ivliicli T am 
 
 \v. "lU'lta" 
 
 ss, and the 
 
 ish to show 
 Mifried over 
 
 it it is part 
 
 Vk-V. 
 
 al \VH ciiuld 
 
 tui-e, 82-"<-* ; 
 at i?l-")'J an 
 
 '11, most of 
 
 idle. 
 
 sr for next 
 
 lot tell you, 
 
 now. 
 
 as c'liniing 
 ice 1890 to 
 
 he cannery 
 
 perty. 
 
 IS it wort>h 
 
 ; the land 
 
 the canned 
 ling to say; 
 
 iurely give 
 
 Mr. l{n'llKT (from auiliencc) Now, this just shows tlie folly of the working of the 
 Counnission. These matters are matters which 1 wished to hring t.. the notice of the 
 Conmiission. Mr. Page is not familiar with them. I coul<l have given you all informa- 
 tion you wished and sIimmI cross-examination, liut you wouKI not let me. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. Then, Mr. Page, you cannot give the value except from such i»apers 
 as y<»u liaM' '! 
 
 Mr. IIliifilNs. -T think Mr. Page has answcr»'d these <|uestions very satisfactorily. 
 
 Ill/ Mr. Annsfronif : 
 
 Q. Dtt yctu include the land in the forty-one thousand odd? A. Certaiidy, the 
 land is valued at cost ; it is what we paid for it ten years ago; 1 have the inventory 
 also of the "Delta" cannery. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i»;iNs. Then it is capital invested. 
 
 Mr. Wll.MOT. Well, as I .stated, Mr. Page, when you i)Ut in papers with figures 
 you are liable to cross-examination, otherwise it would not show. 
 
 Mr. HuioiN's. — I think it is very good evidence. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. \n/,not : 
 
 Q. Have you anything else ? -A. I have an inventory of the *' Delta" as well. 
 
 <,^. And are you jirepared to answer <|uestions on it? A. \ have not had very much 
 time to become familiar with the statement, but T daresay this is an inventory of the 
 cannery and i)lant of the '* Delta." 
 
 i-i. What does " cannery and plant " mean, sir r A. First of all there is the can- 
 nery buildings, !ii!<.),000. 
 
 (^. And land also? A. Yes; the land goes in with it. 
 
 Ihiildings and land 8U.000 
 
 Steam boiler 1,200 
 
 Q. Tiie "cannery" means then simply the building, the shed? A. Yi's. 
 
 (.J. Very well; go on .' \. '2 " Hagar " pumps, f^')\f< ; 1 injector and fittings, ."^(iO ; 
 steam-fittings, ])ipes etc., .'ii'oOO ; 14 kettles and coils for I mi ling fish in, !?420 ; pijiing 
 fur steam pump.s, $40 ; 14") coolers at ."^(5 apiece, !?870 ; 200 coolers at !?4.."»0 apiece (for 
 flat cans) .S1»00. 
 
 Q. How large are they ill size ? A. I could not exactly tell you; they are (|uite 
 three feet. 
 
 Q. How deep ? -A. From two to four inches. 
 
 (}. And how wide aj>art ? -A. Quite three feet, (continuing reading) ^ 
 
 7 tiavellers 840 
 
 (}. Living or dead travellers? (Laughtei) A. They are living when y<iu pull them 
 with a rod. 1 saw <me once fall on a Chinaman's head and he thought it was alive then. 
 (Laughter.) 
 
 Coolei- covers S'O 
 
 ii. Is that for keej)ing them from getting " swelled heads"? A. Oh, no. (Laughter.) 
 
 (.^. Well, if you will put in the whole jjaper we will take them ? A. Why, yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. HnilKT. IJul riiese papers are ours; wedont want to leave them with you. 
 
 Mr. WiLMO'i. But if you put in these matters we must keep the evidence. I want 
 to keep these facts. 
 
 Mr. Hiooixs. liut here is a recapitulation, wouhl not that do? All these little 
 inattei's do you not think they are necessary for a cannery? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, that is just it. I (U»n"t think all these things are necessary 
 f()r running a cannery. Now let us bring this matter to an end : are you willing to put 
 this in, if not, we will consider that you refuse to j)ut these figures in. 
 
 Mr. Huioix.s. — Do you put that paper in as evidence ? 
 
 (Witness demurs and pauses.) 
 
 Jll/ Mr. Wlhnot : 
 (^. Give us the gross amount ; I am satisfied with that ?- V. 830,346.46 for the 
 *' Delta " cannery. 
 
J 
 
 358 MARINE AND VISHERIES. 
 
 Ml'. HiTiiKT. Less the • (rcnmiiKh'r of st'iitviicc iiiuiulililf.) 
 Ml'. AuMSTUOMi. .Ml'. Hitlu't, tliis is oiii' liiisincss, .mt yniii's. 
 .Mr. P.MiK. The total amount i.s .'?,S7,yt)!).7<i. 
 
 //// .I//-. Wi/wof : 
 
 C^. Do you ^'ivt! u.s tliat jtapfM' as cvidi'iifo or not.' A. I cannot p'lrt with this 
 paper, sir. 
 
 //y J/;' I/ijfi/ins : 
 
 Q. No\i', wliat is tlie working fa|iital rtM|nirt'(l to carry on this canuei'y ; ha\'c yiai 
 any idea of tliat ? A. \V«'1I, I don't know exactly how much it co.sts to put up ii case 
 of .sahnon : some years it costs metre than others : last year I "^ue.sa it cost nearly 64. 
 
 (.i. Do you remember lutw many you ]>ut up la.st year? A. Alwuit l:i,000. 
 
 (J. in lf<}(l you put up 12,000? A. Well, ti}j;ures cannot lie if put in in evidence. 
 
 Mr. Ah.msthonc. Well, 1 insist ii. this, the.se papers bein;,' jtut in in evidence. Tii 
 a court you must put in any papers you <»il"ei'. 
 
 Mr. KiTiiK'i". A court is a permanent institution, but this is diflerent. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstiionc. I te 1 you .Mr. Hitiiet we have all the powers and authority of a 
 S']i)reme Ct)urt. 
 
 ,Mr. WiLMor. — More tha i that we are a Royal Comini.ssicii. 
 
 Mr. HiTiiCT.- Oh, I know — I have been on a Royal Commissi«»n before now. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Matters <,nven here and submitted to the (Jovermnent are supposed 
 to a.ssist tlu^ (Government in rpf,'ulatinj; these im))ortant nuitters and any papers put in 
 should be left with us. 
 
 Hi/ Mr, J/li/i/iiis : 
 Q. Well now, you say woikin^ capacity for 12,000 eases? — A. Yes, alx)ut that. 
 
 /{y Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Have you taken that statement from the paper in your hands or not ? A. 1 
 have taken them from this mys»'!f. 
 
 Q. Do you put that paper in as evidence? —A. No, T d<i not. 
 
 <i. If you are asked to put that in as exidence you say no? — A. I say no — it does 
 not belong to me. 
 
 ti>. Then you are <.;ivin<,' your evidence upon another persons statement? — A. Yes. 
 
 (i>. Very well, that is all T want to know. 1 now put it to the JJoard whether this 
 evidence given by Mr. Page shall be taken as evidence, uidess the paper is given? 
 
 Mr. AuMSTHONfJ. I .say it is not evidence at all. 
 
 Mr. Hififiixs. I .say it is most important evidence. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I say it is not evidence at all for this Commission unless the paper 
 is given to us. 
 
 Mr. AHMSTRONti. — Well now, gentlemen, you refuse to put in this paper— we »'ill 
 give you a copy of it — how do we know it is genuine? 
 
 Ml'. RrniKT (indignantly). — It is genuine, sir. 
 
 I have said so before. 
 A. No. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you refuse to put in the paper? — A. Yes 
 
 Q. Have you anything further to .say, Mr. Page ?- 
 
 Mr. .1. H. Todd. — I wish to ask a (piestion of jirivilege — it is in regard to the 
 (juestion put to Mr. Ashdowne Green, the other day, when asked if he had been sworn. 
 I .see this following report in the Colonixt of yesterday : — 
 
 "Mr. Todd,' said Mr. Wilmot, " I'epresented to me that not only had you not been 
 sworn, but furthermore that the omi.ssion on my part was intentional." 
 
 Mr. AVii.MOT.— I made that statement. 
 
 Mr. Todd. — Well, now I beg to differ fntni you entirely, and T think if you will 
 re-call the circumstances of the case you will see that my contention is correct. Now, 
 if you will recollect that when Mr. Lomaa came to give his evidence, I whispered to you 
 
; with tliis 
 
 ; liavc you 
 
 t II I > ;i nise 
 
 I'iirly 64. 
 
 00. 
 
 ill e\ i<l»'iic»'. 
 
 ideiicc. fii 
 
 tlutritv <»t' a 
 
 now. 
 
 re supposed 
 vpers jnit in 
 
 nit that. 
 
 not; A. 1 
 
 no — it does 
 
 A. Yes. 
 hether this 
 f^tivcn ! 
 
 vs tlie paper 
 er — we '>ill 
 
 •e. 
 
 fard to the 
 been sworn. 
 
 HI not l)een 
 
 if ytm will 
 ■eot. Now, 
 ered to you 
 
 BRITISH C0I-U.M1IIA KISHEUY COMMIHSION. 
 
 .15!1 
 
 that ^^^. honias was lieiii^' heard witlioiit Iteiii;,' sworn Mr. Lomas then liiriied to me 
 and said "you don't helieve me unless I am sworn .' " I then said, I was ijiiite ready to 
 accept his word with or without his oath, hut others iiiij.'ht eonstiue it dillereiitly, or 
 words to that etl'eet. 
 
 Mr. NVil.MoT. llwt it is the .same thiny, Mr. T I what you said was the sumn 
 
 tiling now, it" Mi'. Todd wishes to make an apoloj^y 
 
 Mr. Toiui. -You are entirely and totally wroii;,' in makiii;; such a statement. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. .\s tar as I am per.sonally concern d, it does not matter. 
 
 Mr. T(»i»n. hut it matters li» me, and I say that the slalemeiit you made was a 
 tieliherate untruth it was an untruth. 
 
 Mr. llitailNs. Oh yes: take it hack Mr. Chairman. 
 
 Mr. WiLMoT. -No, sir ; I wont take hack what is untrue. 
 
 Mr. Toi>i» (emphatically and strikin;; the talile with his list). It is an untruth, sir 
 — I deny it emphatically. 
 
 -Mr. l{iTiiKT.-~ Hear, hear. 
 
 Ml. WiK.MOT. Mr. StH'ietary, you will take down tiie t'act ot" this applause. 
 
 Mr. lilTllK'l'. Yes, you can take my name too 
 
 Mr. WiL.Mor. (to Mr. Tinld). .\nd do you still mean to say, sir, tiiat what is 
 attrihuted to you in that i)aper is not true / 
 
 .Mr. Toi)l>. Certainly I do— I appeal to anyhody who was present yesterday and 
 will ask them who is ri<,'ht in the matter. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.- Oh, well never mind we will adjourn now to meet aijain here at 
 
 2.;k) P.m. 
 
 The Connnissioii adjourned at 1 [nm., to meet aLjain at the .same place at L'.."iO p.m. 
 
 I'.OAHl) OF TliAOK HooMS, 
 
 Vktoijia, I5.C., 7th Maivh, lS;f_>. 
 Afh'riiiiiiii .SV.'.sw /<>//. 
 The Commi.ssion met at 1.'. 40 p.m. 
 
 Present: Commissioners Wilmot, in the Chair, and Armstroiii,', ^[r. Secretary 
 Winter. 
 
 On (piestion hy the Chair it' any witnesses, and there heini,' no response, the Com- 
 mission was declared adj urned until ."? p.m. 
 
 At .S p.m., the Coim.iission was a<;ain called to orch-r. 
 
 After an informal di.scussion hy the Commissioners it was decided to permit Mr. 
 31. Johnston to suhinit his .statement hy mail as he was not (juite prepared to suhinit 
 it at this .siltinji. 
 
 Mr. I). J. .Mr\x. May 1 ask, Mr. Coiumi.ssi(mers, if you intend takin;,' evidence 
 aj^ain at Westminster? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — T cannot say if the mattei' is hrouj,'ht before us we may consider it, 
 hut T am not prepared to siy we will or will not. 
 
 Mr. MuNN. I would like to kiu)w, Itecause I know of an important witne.ss, and if 
 he had a few days to l(K)k up matters, he would f,'ive very imi)ortant evidence. 
 
 y\r. Akmstkono. Where does he reside? 
 
 Mr. Muxx. At We.stminster. 
 
 Mr. AkM.sTi{oX(;. Well, we will he takinjj; evidence at Vancouver on tSaturday — 
 we cannot say until we ;^et hack to Westininster. 
 
 Mr. MiiXX. Well, [ was just thinkiiiiC a.- he was a Westminster man, it would take 
 off time in taking evidence at Vancouver. 
 
 Mr. AltMHTRoxc;. - Well, we dont know if there are any at all, or how many. 
 
 ^Fr. WiLMOT. Yes. and if Mr. Hi<;gins can come with us and go down the river and 
 see the location of these places of which we have heard. 
 
 Mr. Muxx. — I should like very much to get this man's evidenc*; in he is a iu;w 
 man, and it would he most important. 
 
HBO 
 
 MARINE AND KIHHERIE4. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. Wfll, if tlicrc is ii(>tliin<; «'l.st' hefnrp the hoard we will ndjourii till 
 1 p.m., (Ml Wf(liifH<iay, ut Niiiiiiiiiio, iiiid so that it coul<l Ih* iiiudt* known, I would HU^gest 
 Wf win- the papers at Nanaimo and Vancouver to put in advertisements, notifying the 
 puldie of the meetings in those plaees. From Nanaimo the (^»nimission will adjourn 
 until l.lUa.in., on .Saturday, at Vancouver. 
 
 The Counnission thereupon adjourned at H.lU p.m., to meet in Nanaimo at 10 
 a.m., on !)th Mareh, iNltl'. 
 
 f-'-i 
 
 
 The following wi-itten statements wei'e re(ei\ed from Mi'. M. .J. .fohnston, who tfave 
 the main portion of his evidence at Victoria, on 7th March — and were received as a 
 portion or addition to such evidence. 
 
 "Virroai.v, WC, llth ^larch. lS!)-_>. 
 
 " The Secretary, 
 
 " Tiie Fislieries Commmissioii, 
 Vancouver, H.C. 
 
 "SiH, F<»r the information of the Commissioners, 1 he;,' to state in rejily to the 
 question whidi was addressed to me, viz.: 
 
 " How many saiinon were used for canning purposes and how many cases were 
 jiacked with same at the Fra.ser Kiver canneiy Deas' Island, last .season?" "That 
 80,74") salmon (sockeyes) were supplied to the cannery, and were used in i)ackin;; 7,137 
 cases of 4S one pound tinseach heinif an a\'era<;e of 11 1^ fish per case. \ tin, nomin- 
 ally one poujid, contains more than a jwund of fish about 17A ounces as an avera,i,'e '.'' 
 
 "I am, sir, 
 
 " Your obedient Servant, 
 
 " (Si^jned), MATTHEW .1. JOHNSTON." 
 
 
 VicTouiA, B.C., llth March, IS*)!). 
 
 "The Secret 'iiy, 
 
 The Fishei'ies Conn;iission, 
 Vancouver, 15. C. 
 
 "Sii{, -\ was re(|uested to ;;ive an ap)>roxiniate e.stimate of the amount of capital 
 invested in the canneries in operation on the Fi'aser River, and in reply to which, 1 bejf 
 to sulaiiit the followiiii( figui'es as my estimate : - 
 
 Average cost of land, laiildings, machinery and plant 8 li"),000 
 
 40 boats, complete with siiils, etc., at .*40 2.000 
 
 (iO nets complete, at 81 *)0 !),000 
 
 Steam-boat and scows 4,000 
 
 840,000 
 Capital re(|uired for a pack of 12,000 cases : — 
 
 ^Material, laboui', freights, insurance, etc., at 83.7") per case. 8 4"),000 
 
 An average of each cannery of 8f^'>,000 
 
 Or for 'I'l canneries, 81,870,000 
 
 (Signed), MATTHFIW J. JOHNSTON. 
 
 Naxaimo, B.C., 9th March, 1^92. 
 
 The CV)mmission was conAened in the City Hall at 3 o'clock p.m., according to 
 pre\ ji tus ai'rangement. 
 
 Present :Mr. S. AVilmot in the Chair, Mr. SheiifF Armstrong, 3Ii'. Secretaiy 
 Wiiitei'. Several pei.sons being present. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA KISIIKRY COMMISSION. 
 
 3fil 
 
 limo at 10 
 
 tin, niiiuiii- 
 
 Mr. WiLMoT. Ill nilliiij,' this nifftint; ti» oidfr, I may siiy. yfiitlcnifii, llml tin- 
 Diiiuinioii (iovcrniiieiit lius u|)nn the i't>|)i'CM'iitiiti(iM.s ot' th*- Ihitisli ('ohniihiii iii(*iiil»'i.s 
 of Pui'liiiiiu'nt fippoiiitt'tl H (•DiuiiiisNiKii. consist in;,' ot' niys«'lt', t'haiinian. tin* 
 Hoii(iuial)le (S|t('uk('r Hi;,';,'ins ami Mi-. ShciifT Annstrnn;,'. of New Wi-stniinster. Thf 
 nion- special oltjcet of the Coinniissiori was to ohtain vohintary information on the wlioh' 
 <|iiestion of tlie tislieries of the province «'ither hy stati-ment otl'eied or l»y (piestioninjii 
 Ijy the Connnissioners the sea fisheries as well as ilie riser tisiierios will come under 
 the scope of the Commission and we will i)e iflad to hear aliout any fisheries in youi- 
 neiifhboiirhood. 1 -may further state that this C'onnnission liein;,' duly ()r;,'uni/ed, etc., as a 
 Hoyal Commission, we follow out the usual course followed in a court all evidence will 
 be taken under oath, and (luestions put and answered under <»ath. I cannot help hut 
 draw attention to the fact that we have been rather forestalled in comin;; here. I see 
 hy youi' Frif /'nsx that .some youn;^ men lu-re have been discussing; in a mock parliament 
 the matter of .seines, etc., also the matter of slabs and .saw-dust beiny put in the ii\er 
 and which is claimed to kill youn;,' fish. That is a most important matter and one we 
 will take up. I al.so see it stated that this Connnission is now sitting in Victoria, 
 and will make a report at an early day. We will now proceed to business. 
 
 WALTEIl ROOS, a native of ihissia, a British subject, 'csident in Nanaimo for 
 seven yeai'.s, and descril)ing him.self as a deep sea fisher, was tluly sworn. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. Wifinof .- 
 
 Q. Well, sir, if you have any remarks or suggestion, we will be glad to heai' them. 
 — A. Well, first, I will answer to your allusion to our mock parliament. T am the 
 person that originated it here, and it is rather incoiiectly rejtorted. it is not the sein 
 ing acro.ss the river, but a tug that is the trouble in tin- Gulf. T have had boats fishing 
 these last three months. huring that time, the principal fish that I have received — 
 has been ling cod. A limited mimbei' of the iioitliern cod, or some k nd of cod that is 
 caught on the Atlantic coast, or on the banks, are caught, but they aie linnted here. 
 One day the man brought in twenty. 
 
 Q. Do you conflict them with black cod/ A. That is real g nuino black cod. 
 These fish are very small in --i/ • n(»t aveiaging over fiom four to seven pounds — none 
 that I have caught any w'ay. 1 have also caught some turi)ot. Now, \ am not aw,ii-e 
 I have ever eaten nor seen urbot on the Pacific coasl before. We have ii: d, ]terliaps. a 
 couple of dozen. They arc very .scarce, but the practical nian I employ tells me the 
 turbot goes in very deej) water, and the deepest water we have so far tried is l.")0 
 fathoms. I may also .say that halibut is t < be caught in this distri. t not thai I wouhl 
 warrant any outside fishermen, say from the east or anywhere else, to come here untler 
 the belief that there was a great halibut industry here, but there is halibut, and they 
 are now and then I i-ought in, and I know there is a I alil)Ut fishery within ten or fifteen 
 miles. So far, the t awl has been a failure -loth halibut and other fisheries. The great 
 drawback is in regard to the disposal of the fish. 
 
 Q. Not for want ui fi.sh, Imt a market ?- A. Oh, there is an abundant supply of 
 ling cod, but not sufficient of halibut and turbot. not even to i-upi)ly the local market ; 
 but ling, caught tor .sale, could have been caught every day, and could havi; been sold 
 in veiy large (juantities. Now, there is another point ui)on which I would like to turn 
 upon, and which I would strongly reconnnend the Cf>nnnission to advise the (Jovernment 
 to prohibit, this herring fishirg for oil. Theie has been such a thing as oil f ict(tiies 
 which have started up in various parts of Puget Sound, and othei' jiarts of British 
 Columbia, and wherever these oil factories have run for any time, they have invariably 
 destroyed the herring industry. They haul in herring in large seines l)y hundretls of 
 tons, and the herrings are simj)ly boiled or crushed which ever process they undergo - 
 and tlien the oil i- taken out, and it has a gr at tendency todestroy thnt kind of fish. It 
 is well known after seinin'.;, where heri-ings were very plentiful some years ago : they are 
 very scarce now. It is the same over in Vancouver now, I believe, where an oil factoi'v 
 has been running for some time. T do not know as I have any further remarks to 
 make i)erhaps the Commission might like to ask me a few (piestions ? 
 
 .Q. We might ask you a few. You say you are expei-imenting as to whethei- it 
 would i»e profitable to go into the deep-sea fisheries. At present you have got the ling 
 
3(J2 
 
 MAItlNE AND nsilF.RIRS. 
 
 I 
 
 i 
 
 (Mtl, till- Mark f il. till' liiililitit 1111)1 llif tiiilMit. Nnw, Iimw is Mnjf (listiii;,'iii-lnM| tVniii 
 liliii'k (ihI .' I><i yon kiioA <'ikI on tli*' Atliintir ? A. N<> : tlit'v ilitVi*!' in smiM' |iHrtiiii 
 liirs. I \\ii\t' IiikI New t'iiiiii(llaiHlciN liHliin;; t'tn' iiic, iiimI iIh-v tell im* it raiiiint iMMliii-il - 
 tin- ticsli is tiMi tut. Ill fX|">sili;; it tn llif air, the tat works nut tn tlir llcsliy siilc nt'tlu? 
 tisli, and it turns yt>|| \v. 
 
 i.}. And niiikcs it raiu-id / A. I sn|i|M)sc it dni's tin- lli-sli turns yt'ilnw. 
 
 ij. TIh'ii lin;; cihI licri' is iIh' saiiic as in Nt'w fuuiidlaiid ? A. No, tlu'V dill'i-r - 
 till- Atlantic cod \\i\n a sound, but these liavc not, their (ins ditVer in some respects too. 
 
 i). How aiMiut lilack ctKl are they identical/ A. 'I'liey are in many particidurs 
 - -they ha\e sounds. 
 
 (i. You say linj; runs from \ to 7 |h»uimIs ,' We noticed some cimI in N'ictoiia and 
 New W'estminstei- markets they would ranu'e lar;,'er than that. A. It would he the 
 liii;; <ir Mack c<mI the lin;i iimI is a 'art;c lish a very lar;fe tish. 
 
 iy llow lii^'? — A. From Kl to M) pounds. 
 
 i}. Then the lilack cod is a ^^ood eatini; fish ? A. Yes, il is a j;<mmI saleaMe fish and 
 where the local market cannot consume it, it can lie cured and dried. 
 
 Ij. Mow is your «liinate adapted t'oi' dryin;; r*K\( -A. Oh, I tliiiik it is splendid. 
 
 (.}. Then you think it' ii market was opened up the black c<mI. or yiair real co<| as yoii 
 term it, would Iwcome t|uite an article of commerce and would induce tisheriiieii tocnme 
 here .' A. I'ndoulitedly, hut as I .said hefore, there are hut limited numl)ers of them. 
 
 (}. Would that he because few people weie tishinj; for them or because they were 
 few in numbeis ? A. I think they are scaice in numbers. 
 
 ii. How far out have you fished for them / -A. About 10 miles up. 
 
 ii. Are there any otiiei' jiersons wlio practice this mode of tishin;; ? A. I am not 
 aware of them Indians spear many of the lin;,'c(Ki, but I do not know if thevju'ct many 
 of the right c(mI. 
 
 ii. Then you think a profitable industry for the province mi^fht be ;,'ot up if there 
 was an outlet for sale,' -A. Yes, well ri;,dit in Nanaimo it niij.dit be a ditficult thing — 
 for my experience would not warrant me to say it would be a success. 
 
 <^. l)<iyou know if fish e.xtend any length along the coast.' — A. Oh yes, we have 
 caught them 20 miles along the coast. 
 
 i-i. Is the turbot like the turlnit of the Atlantic coast t — A. Yes. 
 
 ii. And they would average r A. About ;") pounds. 
 
 t^. A good well-meuted fish I- A. Yes, splendid. 
 
 ii. What has been done witli those caught .' — A. They have been sold in the local 
 market. 
 
 ii. Do you think them sufticiently ntnuemus to m.,ke a commercial transa<"tion if 
 entered into fully? — A. Well, I have tried it for '^ months it is a fish that swims in 
 very deep water and the deepest that tht^ men have fished is 1 50 fathoms. 
 
 i^. How do you catch them ? A. In trawls. 
 
 Q. And haliltut you think not numtrous? A. Well, they may be according to the 
 season of the year, because in Victora I find in summer many iialif)ut, while in wintei' 
 they are very scarce. It may be but some yeais — of course, I have only tried this winter. 
 
 ii. Ha\e you noticed in the Victoria j)apers and papers south, that vast tjuantities^ 
 have been brought down? A. Yes, steani-lMtats l)ring them from up north. 
 
 Q. Jiut your experience is you have cauglit them, but y<iu have not gone into the 
 business sufticiently to .say you have caught them numerously ? —A. Nc», I have not. 
 
 Q. But you think from experience up north they wtmld be here? — A. Well, I 
 think they would be in the summer months. 
 
 i.i. ^Vhat is the average size of halibut liere? — A. Forty-five pounds. 
 
 Q. You have caught larger ?^ — A. Yes, some about eighty and ninety. 
 
 Q. And what market have you for them ? A. Only the local market for the few 
 we have caught. I may also mention, as far as my exf)enence gfies, J would, say the 
 most important here is the oil fishery ; in the industry alone, there must be from 100 to 
 l-')0 men employed in that industry now, taking the tish for their oil. 
 
 ii. Would that include the small shark ? — A. Y'es. 
 
imtTISH Ci>I,UMIUA FISHERY COMMtSStON. 
 
 363 
 
 <^. Anil is it wluilly coiivorU'd into nil ,' A. N<»: only tli« livcf, ami tin- IkmIv is 
 tliruwii away us olTiil ; iiiitlniilitcdly tin- small audit'iui' licrc to-day is due ti» the tail 
 that tliesc di»j,'-lisli iiM'ii air imw awiiy iVniii tlif i-ity iMi);a>i;t'd in tlicii- wmk, aimiit II 
 mill's iiDi'tli nt' lu'i'«'. 
 
 i-i. Is any attempt maili- to makr fi'itili/i-r niit iit' tlin rct'nsc ,' A. No. 
 
 (}. l>iM's it answiT faiiniTs' |iiii|ti»si's to use it ,' - A. < )li, yi-s, it is a j,'o(mI fi'i'tili/ef, 
 lnit my cxpcricnii' of t'l-rtili/i-r is that it does not ans\v»'> lor root erops. 
 
 <}. l''or eerea Is would it answer f A. For hay, oats and wheat I have seen it 
 answer veiy well. 
 
 (^. Then at |iresent the do>; tisli oil industry employs «ome KMJ to I'lO hands, and 
 the liver oidy is used, and the rest thiown away .' .\. Yes. 
 
 (}. Have you any l<nowled;,'e of the etl'ects of that otl'al thrown away, or is the 
 liusiness sutlieiently larf{e to foiin any opinion .' \. Fishermen are of ii])inion that it 
 injures the fisheries hy throwinj,' it away; they think it should he saved from ynint; 
 in the water, liut it is not done. 
 
 <^. What do they do with it then .' — A. They j,'enerally leave it on the heath and 
 ilo^fs, heai's, ete., eat it. 
 
 (j. llut their >;eneral inipression is that it is injurious and they don't throw it in, 
 liut leave it on shore? A. Yes. 
 
 ij. You spoke of herrings eau;;{ht for oil heiny detrimental. Do you mean that 
 catehing lai'ge quantities of herring and usin^' them reduces their nundiers ? A. it is 
 reducing their lunnhers, for you see a large factory can us ' mi lOO to ir)(> tons a day ; 
 there is very little oil in herring, and there must he tremend'> i quantities used to nuike 
 it a paying husine.ss. 
 
 (.}. Do they make anything else out of it, fertilizer or anything ? A. I doni know. 
 
 i^. fs it for oil only .' A. I have no e.\p(U'ience ii lie lju.>iiiess. 
 
 t^. Will the profit be from oil or fertilizer, or hotli / A. IJotl;, i should think. 
 
 Q. Is till ,1 I sold in considerahle quantities .' A. I don! know. 
 
 (f. Where does it go ' A. 1 d n't know. 
 
 t^i. You only know there are factories a* ;l they consume large quantities of herring, 
 hut you do not know anything of the profits .' .\. No ; there was a factory here started 
 hut it is cliLsed down. 
 
 <.^. Then you think the herrings are reduced hy such large quantities heing caught 
 and th«' r«'fu.se thrown in ? -.\. <>h, I think the refuse is taken away. 
 
 (.}. What was the result in Vancouver '. A. The herring has iM'come very scaice ; 
 I have hea d from Hsiiermen that they cannot get even any liait. 
 
 C^. And are there herrings there .' — A. They are very scarce; it has killed out the 
 herring industry to a very large e.xtent. 
 
 i-i. Y'ou spoke of large seines the manner in which they catch them you know 
 what a purse .seine is? Y'^e.s. 
 
 (.}. Do they u.se j)ur.se .seines ? A. Yes. 
 
 <.^. How fir do they go out to catch them ? A. Oh, .sometimes the school is out a 
 jiiece wherever they see a school, they go out and put their .seines arounil them. The 
 quantity of herring they catch can he got from tiie fact, that a smal' sfeameifrom 
 Victoria, in one liau', got twenty-tiM' tons of heriing-*. 
 
 <j. D ) y<»» know what was done with them? A. They were taki-n mi the steaiii- 
 lioat and taken to Victoria. 
 
 Q. What did they with twenty-five tons of herring there? A. T think they sold 
 it to ti.shermen, who .sold it for hait. 
 
 Q. What fish do they catch with that hait ? A. Halihut, dog-fish, etc. 
 
 Q. Are any .salmon caught along this coast ? A. Some, in the spring of the year. 
 
 (^. Are they caught entring the rivi-rs or out oft' on the coasts .' A. No ; I think 
 the principal part are taken oft" the lightho.'se. 
 
 i}. Does the Nanaimo River run in her' .' A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. Do salmon come up the river at all? — A. Well, some may. The ojily ones I 
 have known to come up are hooked-nosed salmon. 
 
 - Q. Are 1 hey spring salmon oi- sockeye ? A. No. The hookiiozed salmon are not 
 .saleable at all. 
 
364 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 C^. What season when they CDnie in ? — A. In the fall. ' 
 
 Q. And you never see them this time of the year ? -A. No. 
 
 Q. Not between this and the fall f — A. No. 
 
 i.i. What do you mean by hook-nosed salmon ? - A. Well, tlieiv is a hook on the 
 uppei' jaw. 
 
 Q. Wholly on the upper jaw <.i' on thu lower also ? — A. Wholly on the upper jaw, 
 I think. I have never .seen any on the lower jaw. 
 
 (}. Do you know sockeye salmon I A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Any in this river? A. We 1, there were some eau<,'ht out in the harbour, l)Ut 
 I do not think in the river. 
 
 Q. Can salmon go up the liver — ai'e there any obstructions? A. I d<in't think so. 
 There may be. 
 
 Q. T'iiere are no canneries about here ?- A. No. 
 
 Q. J)t( you know anything of trout coming uj) the streams? — A. Yes; there are 
 considerable (^uantities of large trout in the lake. 
 
 Q. What do you call large trout ? A. About twenty or twenty-five pounds. 
 
 Q. Would they be sea trout ? A. Well, the oi\ly two kinds T have ever heard of 
 are salmon trout and mountain trout. 
 
 (i. The salmon trout would run what size? A. Three and a half to four pounds. 
 
 Q. jMigl.t they not be the same tish ? — A. No; I think the flesh differs. The 
 mountain tinut is nicer eating. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Ariiistrun;/ : 
 
 Q. You don t know what was done with offal from the factoiT that was established 
 here? — A. Tt oidy ran a few days, and was sto|>ped for .some reasons which 1 don't 
 know. There were plenty of herring, but still the factory was stopped. 
 
 JJy Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Do you know if stopped by order ( f the town here as a nuivance, oi- anything of 
 that kind ? -A. No ; T don't know. 
 
 Q. Thank you, Mr. Koos. I'nless you have something else to suggest yourself, 
 that will do? — A. No ; 1 have nothinyr further. 
 
 FHAK ^'^OZZAN, a native of Italy — 10 years in British Columbia, formerly a 
 fisherman on the Fraser River, but now a dog-fish fisherman, a resident of Nanaimo, 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 Q. Well, what have you to say, sir? — A. Well, I was on the Fraser River before I 
 came here -and then by that license })usiness -when we could not get any more licenses 
 I came hei'e and fished for dog-fish. 
 
 (^. You are desirous of getting licenses to fish in the Fraser River? — A. And here 
 to<j. 
 
 Q. Licenses in the Fraser IJiver would be for salmon fishing and here for every kind 
 of fish you could catch ? — A. Yes, for dog-fish piincii^ally. 
 
 Q. Y(»u had license on the Fraser Rivei-? — A. Yes, I had licenses right along for 
 six years. 
 
 C^. And did you make application for licenses Ir.tely ? — A. Yes, but they would not 
 give it to me — they gave to other people — new hands that came in, but not to all hanils. 
 
 Q. Have you become a British sul)ject by taking out the necessary papers ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you are actually a British subject, as far as naturalization is concerned? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since you took out papers ? — A. About three years ago. 
 
 Q. And you got licenses on the Fraser River befoie you took out jtapers? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 it 
 
liiiok oil the 
 lie upjier juw, 
 
 harl)oui', l)ut 
 uii't think so. 
 
 t's ; there ai'e 
 
 pounds. 
 
 ever heard of 
 
 our pounds, 
 differs. The 
 
 IS estal)Iislied 
 hich 1 don't 
 
 r aiiythin<f of 
 ■est yourself, 
 
 a, formerly a 
 of Nanainu), 
 
 [iver before I 
 more licenses 
 
 A. And here 
 
 3v every kind 
 
 j;ht aloiii; for 
 
 ey vould not 
 to all hamls. 
 I'V i>ai)ers ? — 
 
 ; concerned ? 
 papers ? — A. 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 365 
 
 Q. And when you applied lately you were refused — why 1 — A. Well, they said they 
 were so many licenses given out and they could not give any more. 
 
 Q. How many years did you fish on the Kraser ? — A. Well, since 1882 T have 
 fished in the Fraser River. 
 
 Q. What portion did you fish in? — A. Well, from Mr. Ewen's and all along the 
 liver — all about the sand heads and upwards. 
 
 Q. Did you ever keeji count of the fish you caught? — Yes, sometimes I did. 
 
 Q. What average would you take in a season? when you fished for sockeye ? — A. 
 Well, we finished for spring salmon and .sockeye we didn't fish for 
 
 Q. Well, in a good season how many would you catch ? A. In a l)ig season we 
 might get 500 or 600 a day in a poor run we might average 40 a day. 
 
 Q. What did you get for your fish how much? A. Well, generally 10 cents. 
 
 Q. Did you ever get more fish than you could dispose of? A. No, I caught only 
 those they would take from me. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch more than they would take from you ? A. Well, sometimes 
 I did, but I had to give them away for nothing, sometimes I salted them. 
 
 Q. Were you in the habit of throtving them away in the water ? -A. No, I never 
 did that. 
 
 Q. Were you aware others did that? A. No, I never saw anybody throw them 
 away — we gave them to the Indians to dry the rndians will take them any time. 
 
 Q. Where did you live when there? — A. In a small sloop eight or ten tons. 
 
 Q. Was ottal thrown into the river then? — A. Yes, well they threw it under the 
 canneries. 
 
 Q. Do you think the offal gave any injurious effects to the water, or fish, or health ? 
 — A. Well, T don't think so, because the heavy freshets of the river would carry it all 
 away. 
 
 Q. You don't think it any harm to the river, fish, or health ? — A. No, I don't 
 think it does any harm. 
 
 Q. Have you been fishing here? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any license ? — A. Well, no one asked me for license. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish do you catch here? — A. liock cod, ling, halibut, etc. 
 
 Q. The same as this gentleman stated before you ? — Y'^es ; sir. 
 
 Q. Do you find a market for all you catch ? - A. Well, we get them away as well 
 lis we can. 
 
 Q. Do you catch any sockeye? — A. No ; T hear some Indians got them out by the 
 lighthouse, but I never got any. 
 
 Q. Any spring salmon ? — A. Yes; in the winter. 
 
 Q. Where do you catch those spring salmon ?— A. Well, in Departure Bay and 
 other places. Whenever there is any herring around, they follow the herring. 
 
 Q. What average size vvould you catch here ? — A. About 2o lbs. 
 
 Q. Do you find any spring salmon red and white meated or all one colour? — A. 
 Yes ; both red and white. 
 
 Q. Which is best ? — A. Well, lots of people think the red, but I think the white 
 is richest. 
 
 ii. Can you sell all you catch here ? — A. Y''es : in the winter. There is a great 
 market here in the winter. 
 
 Q. But just to use themselves, or does anybody send them away anywhere else? — 
 A. Well, I don't know. T don't think they send them away. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any spring salmon up the rivers?- A. Hometiines they go up a 
 little piece, but in shallow water they cannot go far up. 
 
 Q. When do you see this ?^A. In December. 
 
 Q. Do you know when they spawn ; when they lay their eggs ?— A, No; I d<»n't 
 know. 
 
 (.}. Do you know where they go lo spawn? — A. No; I don't know. Some say 
 Nanaimo River, but I don't know. 
 
 Q. 1-.) they go up in December? — A. Y''es ; in December, January, and those 
 months. 
 
f- 
 
 366 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. And you catch them out on these coasts in those months '! — A. \es , m March, 
 April and May. 
 
 Q. Wliat do you catch in May ? — A. Well, when the herring leaves the coast the 
 fishing is played out, except what you catch along the shore ; ling cod, etc. 
 
 Q. How many fishermen are engaged here? — A. About i")0 moi-e or less. 
 
 Q. And they all pursue fishing the same as you do ; the same kind of fish ? — A. 
 Ye.s ; sir. 
 
 Q. What net do you use ? — A. What for? 
 
 (,>. l''oi' salmon ? — A. AVell, we catch salmon in the same sized mesh as we catch 
 the dog-fish. 
 
 (,|. What size would that be '! — A. ().\ inches. 
 
 Q. Is it !i floating net oi \hat ? — A. Nt) ; we sink it to the bottom. Thei-e is no 
 tide there and it rests on the bottom. 
 
 (}. You dont fa.sten it with .stakes or anything?- A. No. 
 
 Q. What is the height of tide here? — A. About 14 feet. 
 
 Q. A pretty good tide, is it not ? — A. Yes ; sir. 
 
 Q. And you tish with a net with lead lines'taking the bottom and the cork lines on 
 top?" — A. No, sir ; the lead lines are not always on the Ixittom. 
 
 Q. Hut the coik lines are on the sui-face ? — A. Oh, yes ; sir. 
 
 Q. J)o you ti.sh with seines? — A. Yes; sometimes. 
 
 Q. And what is the .seine like? — A. A bag seine. 
 
 Q. And what length? — A. About loO fathoms. 
 
 Q. And what size of mesh in that net? — A. In the bag it will be .small mesh, li 
 inch, and as you get out to the edges it will be larger. 
 
 Q. What size in the bag ? A. About an inch me.sh. 
 
 C. Extension measure or s((uare ? — A. Extension. 
 
 Q. Then incli mesh would make .1, inch square? A. Yes, about i inch .sijuare it 
 makes over an inch when stivtched out. 
 
 (.}. What do Vdu catch in this net? - A. >Sume rock cod. flounders .sometimes ling 
 
 cod 
 
 ii. AVhat .small tish do you get in it? — A. Little tommy cods. 
 
 Q. Any oulaclioiis ? A. No sir. 
 
 CJ. Any sn)all trout?- A. Sometimes very seldom. 
 
 Q. And young salmon ? -A. Very .seldom. 
 
 Q. lUit you do catch .some now and them .' .\. Very si'ldom. 
 
 Q. And the young .salmon what size would it be? A. Only about two pounds. 
 
 Q. Do ynu ever catch any little salmon- (i or 8 inches long ? — A. Oh no, the v go 
 through the mesh. 
 
 Q. How can tiiey go through half inch mesh ? -A. Well, sometimes they may get 
 them, but it is very seldom we get so small as that. 
 
 ii. And when you take in the .seine you take them all, rock cod, little salmon and 
 all kinds ? What do you do with little ti.sh' that are so snudl you cannot sell them? 
 A. Well, we always let them go, they are no use to us. 
 
 (^. How do you let them out? A. Well, we just let down the net and they walk 
 away them.selves. 
 
 (^. l^o all go away alive ? A. Oh ye.s, part of them. 
 
 (}. Do you ever haul your .seine on shore .lud after picking (tut the huge ones, leave 
 the small ones there? A. Well, there are some little ones tiiat have no chance to L'et 
 away and they r.inain there. 
 
 (.^. Where (In you haul these .seiiu'.s, in the harbour here? A. .Sometimes outside 
 and sometimes in the harbour, (tenerally between here and Departure Hay. 
 
 Q. Do the.se other brother fishermen fish that way with .s«'ines? — A. No, I have 
 not seen one. 
 
 Q. Oidy yourself fishing with a seine? — A. Well, there may be some from Cowichan 
 Hay and if they went for bait they will tish with a seine. We don't tish all the time 
 with a seine. 
 
 Q. But Hshermen from Cowichan do the same as yourself ? A. Cowichan Gap, yes 
 there are .some do the same. 
 
es , lu March, 
 
 the coast tlie 
 c. 
 
 ess. 
 
 1 of fish ?— A. 
 
 h as we catcli 
 
 There is no 
 
 ? cork lines on 
 
 mall mesh, H 
 
 cli s(|uare it 
 iOmetimes liny; 
 
 wo pounds. 
 )li no, they go 
 
 they may get 
 
 e salmon and 
 sell them? - 
 
 lul thev walk 
 
 •ge ones, leave 
 chance to get 
 
 itinies outside 
 
 V. No, I have 
 
 ■om Cowichan 
 h all the thne 
 
 chan Gap, yes 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 367 
 
 Q. And then your principal object in coming heiv is that you want license to tish 
 here and in the Fraser Itiver as well? A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. You want di-it't net license as well as seine? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Hut if restricted to f»nly one which would you want ? A. I would rather have 
 one to fish in Fiaser Hi\er. 
 
 Q. That is salmon license with (i inch mesh — 5^ rather .' — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you ever fish down at Cowichan? A. S'o sir, I have fished down there six 
 years ago, but not lately. 
 
 Q. Have you anything else you wish t(t l)ring before the Connnission ? — A. No sir. 
 
 Mr. Ahmsti{o\(;. — Thank you. 
 
 P.ARTHOLEMEW LACOSTE, a native of Italy, a British subject, 12 years 
 living in British Columl)ia, a resident nf Xanaimu, a fisherman, was duly sworn. 
 
 lii/ Mr. Wihaot : 
 
 Q. Well sir, what do you want ? A. I want a license. 
 
 Q. Have you ever ai)plied for them ? — A. Yes, I fished in 18S2, in the Fraser River, 
 and then came up heie. 
 
 <.^. Have you ever had licenses on the Frasei' Itiver? — A. T fished with the previous 
 witness, Frank Vozzan, 
 
 Q. The .same license did you both? A. Yes, we fished together. 
 
 Q. Do you endorse what he says as to fishing on Fraser River, the (juantity of fish 
 caught, etc. '?- -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you use a seine here to? A. Yes, sometimes. 
 
 Q. And do you catch fish of the same kind ? — A. Yes, the same kind. 
 
 (,>. With some meshes, bag-net ? — A. Yes, I fished with the last witness ; we are 
 partners. 
 
 Q. And you corroborate what he says 1 — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you want a license? — A. Yes, I want a license, that is all ; I want to fish 
 for salmon in Fraser River, and go there in the fishing season and fish. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Well, sir, we have your statement down, unless you have something 
 further to say, that will do. 
 
 D. S. McDonald, a native of Scotland, IG years in British Columbia, a mer- 
 chant, and resident of NanaiuK), was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Now, sir, what do you tlesire to say ? — A. Well, there is or,e thing I obsei ved 
 last summer, the stream that goes out from off side of this harbour; there ai'e three 
 lakes connected witii it : Fishhawk Lake, Tiumder Lake and Troboy Lake ; the stream 
 pa,sses through from the ui)per lake right stiaight down through, and there is a little 
 outlet goes into the second lake, and there is a dam which stojjs fisli. 
 
 Q. W^hich is farthest up ? ~ A. Fishhawk Lake, the next is Thunder Lake, and 
 the last is Trol)oy Lake. 1 iiave a little diagram here from which you will undeistand 
 the positions (shosving Chairman diagram). 
 
 Q. And how far is the dam ivoin the tide water? — A. Well, the tide backs up to 
 the dam. 
 
 t^. Well, what do you w, lit to say about this ? — A. My object I will explain to 
 you. T am very fond of the fishing rofl ; 10 or 12 years ago, I used to go to either of 
 these lakes and catch tnnit, l)ut since tiie dam has been across you cannot catch one of 
 them. 
 
 Q. W^hat is the height of this dam?— A. AVell, 1 cannot .say: it stops the tide 
 from going up ; there is a llood-gate on it, and the water comes ami shuts the gate. 
 
 Q. And any fish going up would be stopped or fish coming down ? — A. I think the 
 water is so low when the tide goes out that fish cannot come out in that particular 
 place. 
 
 ; J 
 
/ 
 
 3«3 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 ^'' » 
 
 Q. But any fish coming clown and the flood gate open ; fish could come down could 
 they not ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What size is the stream from Trolwy Lake ? — A. Well, in suumier time about 
 15 or 20 feet across. 
 
 ii. And of what depth / What kind of bottom ? — A. Gravelly Ixtttom. 
 
 Q. Is it pure clear water as a rule, except in freshets ? — A. Well, from Troboy Lake 
 it has muddy streams Hfiwing into it, etc., but from the dam up it is clear water for say 
 two miles. 
 
 Q. What fish do you catch there ? — A. Trout. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by trout ? — A. The salmon trout ; I don't think there is 
 any UKtuntain trout here. 
 
 Q. You have been in the eastern country?— A. Yes; I have been all through 
 Nova Scotia, and the trout we catch there has a small red spot and we never catch 
 them here. 
 
 Q. Then the speckled trout are not here? -A. No, I tiiink they ai-e young salmon 
 trout. There are large salmon trout caught, six or seven pounds, up at the falls, and 
 they resemble these very much. 
 
 Q. The only thing is, I find there is a considerable difference of opinion here on 
 this matter ; now, what is your descripticm of salmon trout ?— A. AVell, the scales of 
 pari- is larger. 
 
 Q. What do you then call "parr?'' — A. A young salmon about six inches long. ' 
 
 Q. With a band along the sides and spots ? — -A. No ; those I call the trout. 
 
 Q. l?ut they are young salmon in a diflferent stage. Well, these imes you get in 
 the lakes? -A. I call them salmon trout. They are marked across the l)ody and have 
 no specs fin them. 
 
 Q. Are you prei)are,l ' > say they were not young salmon? — A. To the best of my 
 belief they are young salmoii. 
 
 Q. And would l>e jiioduced by salmon going up to those lakes and going into 
 smaller streams to breed ? — A. Yes. 
 
 (i. And tilt' killing of these -do you consider it objectionable as against allowing 
 tliein to come down and become full-grown ? — A. Well, that size — you never take them 
 out with hook and line. 
 
 Q. Hut as they get larger you would ? — A. Y''es ; in a difFei-ent stage. 
 
 (.}. Hut don't you think it injurious to kill those salmon ? — A. Yes ; but it is more 
 injurious to spoil the stream and not let them go up at all. 
 
 Q. Yes, but if you kill them oflt', you will have none at all ? — A. Well, but that is 
 looking very far ahead. Probably the plovers would get them, anyway. 
 
 Q. Then vuu say the dam should be removed to let salmon pass up and breed? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And should I say to let you catch them with a fly? — A. Well, they have got 
 scarce since the dam has been thei'e. 
 
 Q. But I think it a bad argument for you to say that the dam should lie removed 
 to save the fish, so you could kill them with a fly ? — A. Perhaps it is a selfish motive. 
 
 Q. What is the dam u[) heie for? Any motive power or manufactory ? — A. No — 
 to pi-event the land being flooded above. 
 
 (.}. Ts the land occupied by farmers above this gate ? A. I cannot tell you. 
 
 (j. Are tiiere any residents there ? — A. Oh, yes ; on the high land there is. I can- 
 nttt say how many acres would be flooded. 
 
 Q. Then the stoppage of the water benefits how many ? — A. Only one farmer, and 
 it jtrevents fish fnmi going uj) to breed. 
 
 <^^. Ts this dam <«i his own land ? — A. I cannot tell you. To the best of my 
 knowledge it is, but I don't know. 
 
 (,). Well, it does not matter. — No man has the right to stop the passage of fish up 
 stieam. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Armstrong : 
 Q. He effectually stops them then ? — A. Yes. 
 
I clown could 
 
 r time about 
 
 1. 
 
 Troboy Lake 
 
 k'ater for say 
 
 link there is 
 
 all through 
 never catch 
 
 >ung salmon 
 le falls, and 
 
 lion here on 
 he scales of 
 
 ;hes long. 
 
 trout. 
 
 s you get in 
 
 (ly and have 
 
 best of my 
 
 1 going into 
 
 list allowing 
 r take them 
 
 at it is more 
 
 , but that is 
 
 id breed ? — 
 
 ey have got 
 
 1)6 rem(»ved 
 sh motive. 
 
 ?— A. No— 
 
 you. 
 
 e is. I can- 
 farmer, and 
 
 best of my 
 [e of fish up 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHBBT COMMISSION. 
 
 369 
 
 Yes. 
 
 Q. And you desiie to see the law made, if there is none now, to stop this I—A. 
 
 (Voice from audience.)— Three years ago theie was a petition got up to stop this. 
 Bi/ Mr. AriuHtroiig : - 
 
 Q. Well, T may say it is against the law now to do this. Any of you can go t ) a 
 magistrate here and have any one tined who does this.— A. Well, t wanted to know if 
 it was right that this man should do this. If it is wrong, why it is wrong to me and the 
 balance of the community. 
 
 Q. There is no doubt it is wrong, sir, as far as the law is concerned, but I, of 
 course, cannot decide such matters or give you advice on the matter. However, your 
 statement is re orded, and it will appear- before the authorities, and will be takeii up 
 with other matters in connection with the fisheries of British Columbia. 
 
 P. S. CURRY, a native of England, 22 years in British Colundjia— a resident of 
 Nanaimo, and describing himself as an Indian trader, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Have you anything to say relative to this stoppage at the dam ?— A. Well, I 
 have nothing much to say, but every one is of my opinion, that the dam was stopping the 
 fish from going up. There used to be good fishing some years ago, but now there Is no 
 trout at all — I know three years ago there was a petition got up among the settlers to 
 have this dam taken down. 
 
 Q. To whom did the petition go t<»? — A. I don't know — or whether it was ever 
 sent. 
 
 Q. Did you sign it 1 — A. No — I was not a settler. 
 
 Q. Who is your fishery ofiicer here ?— A. We have none— at the time the petition 
 was got up it was Charles York. 
 
 Q. Is not Mr. Malpas here 1- A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you don't know whether the petition was sent to York or not? A. I don't 
 
 know — but I know every one is of the same opinion that the dam is injurious to the 
 
 lakes. 
 
 Q. Is it your impression too? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the dam made of - earth or wood?- 
 
 A. Both, I think— I have seen it 
 
 cmce. 
 
 Q. A lr)g dam with earth thrown upon it ? — A. Yes, 
 
 Q. And this swing gate in the middle ?- A. Yes, it is only for preventing the 
 water from going on some hay lands. 
 
 Q. And what space would the gate leave ? — A. About three feet — somewhere near 
 that. 
 
 Q. Then water would rush through very rapidly when the tide was coming in and 
 would shut the gate cpiickly ? -A. Yes, it is simply for keeping the water from going 
 on the land. 
 
 Q. ^ jn you have heard that gentleman before you speak with regard to the lakes 
 "do you corrolx)rate that? — A. All except I differ with him as regards the trout he 
 calls them salmon — I call them fresh water trout. 
 
 Q. What is it marked like ? — A. Different marks on them— some spotted and 
 streaked. 
 
 Q. You are not prepared to say they are young salmon ? — A. I don't think them 
 young salmon. 
 
 y. Have you sufficient experience to say whether they are young salmon or trout ? 
 -A. I never fished for salmon they were all trout that came to my net. (Laugh). 
 
 Q. And whoever sells them -they would .say they were young salmon, I suppose? 
 (Laughter.) I may say it is vei-y difiicult for anyone to tell between young salmon and 
 trout but they can be told. And you would catch diflerent coloured fish from the 
 different lakes T think it is on account of the b/ttom — in a muddy bottomed lake vou 
 
 lOc— 24 
 
370 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 will catch them different to the gravelly b(»ttom. Have you anything to say as to the 
 big salmon? -A. No, T don't know anything about them, except I have seen them going 
 up streams. 
 
 Q. Oh, you have in these streams spoken of'?- A. Yes. 
 
 ii. What like about what size? — A. Oh, weighing about twetity or twenty-five 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. Yes, the spring salmon -when do you see them going up? — A. In the fall — 
 after the rains ha\e made the streams bigger. 
 
 Q. Well, that is the strongest evidence you could give that these little fish were 
 salmon, because the big fish go up in the fall to dej)osit their eggs and then these are 
 the little fish that come afterwai-ds. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Ct'ititv.- — Is there not a proper close season for trout fishing here? 
 
 Mr. AViLMOT. — Yes ; sii-. 
 
 WiTNKSS. Would you tell me when it clo.ses ? Some say one thing is the law and 
 some another ? 
 
 jNIi-. Wilmot. — Well, the law is at present that no one shall kill trout from loth 
 Octoljer tf) 1 nth iNIairh. 
 
 Mr. CuuHV. - Is that for the angler ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh, well it does not matter. 
 
 AViTNKSs. — AVell, many have different opinions. They think if fishing with a fly, 
 they can fish any time. 
 
 ]\[r. WiLMOT. — Oh, no ; you see there is a certain time when the ti'out breed, too ; 
 and the anijler w<iukl desti'oy them, too ; it does not matter, angler, spearsman, net 
 fisherman, or Indian, all are equally prohibited during the close tinie. 
 
 Mr. Akjistrong (to Witness). — Thank you, sir. 
 
 EDWARD QUESNELLE, a ivative of England, 2G years in British Columbia, a resi- 
 dent of Nanaimo, and by occupation a butcher, was duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Wh.at have you to say ? — A. It was just in regard to the evidence about fish in 
 Fish-Hawk Lake. I used to log neai- there a few years ago. Before the dam was put 
 across we used to get salmon in plenty ; even in the ditches, we got two kinds. 
 
 Hy Mr. Armstrong : 
 
 Q. What is the name of this stream ? — A. It has no name ; it is a small outlet 
 from these two lakes. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. How far from here ? — A. Oh, about two or three miles. 
 
 Q. And Fish-Hawk Lake ?- A. About eight miles. 
 
 Q. And the whole extent of stream from Fish-Hawk Lfike ? — A. From Fish-Hawk 
 Lake down to salt water at the dam, 5 miles. 
 
 Q. And how long is Fish-Hawk Lake ? — A. The longest part, 3 miles and average 
 width 'I of a mile. 
 
 Q. Are there any small streams running into Fish-Hawk L.ake ? — A. Yes ; several 
 of them. What I wanted to state was, that before the dam was placed there the salmon 
 went up regularly every year about the month of September. It varied sometimes, but 
 after the dam was put across, the salmon stopped coming up. 
 
 Q. You have seen them caught up there in years gone by? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. And at any time ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the size of the larger salmon? — A. 15, 20 and 2.') lbs. ; and the smaller 
 ones 6 to 8 or 10 lbs. 
 
 Q. Were smaller ones numerous ? — A. No ; the larger ones were the most. 
 
 Q. What comparative difference ; woulr' the lai-ger ones lie double the smaller 
 ones ? — A. Oh, yes ; there were only a few small ones, and after they went up the ditches 
 would be covered with spawn. 
 
I say as to tlie 
 en them going 
 
 or twenty -five 
 
 In the fall— 
 
 ittle lish wei-e 
 ;hen these are 
 
 s the law and 
 jut from lotli 
 
 ng with a fly, 
 
 ut l)reecl, too ; 
 jearsman, net 
 
 umbia, a resi- 
 
 3 about fish in 
 dam was put 
 :inds. 
 
 I small outlet 
 
 )m Fish-Hawk 
 
 }s and average 
 
 Yes ; several 
 sre the salmon 
 sometimes, but 
 
 yes. 
 
 d the smaller 
 
 most. 
 
 le the smaller 
 I up the ditches 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 871 
 
 grave 
 
 Q. Did the smaller ones spawn?— A. Well, I don't know. I din't think so. 
 
 <.i. We. e the smaller ones .same as '^.lie big ones, only smaller? -A. No; they did 
 not look the same. 
 
 Q. Do you tiiink they are the young of the large? Did yim ever hear them called 
 grilse? A. No ; they s«u'med to be somewhat red. 
 
 Q. Yes ; that would be the sockeye salmon, and would the spawning places l)e 
 
 elly bottom ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How do you know they were spawning there? A. Well, w,' knew because we 
 used to see the eggs there in the ditclies. 
 
 Q. Would you st^e places where tlie gi'avcl woidd V)e removed by the fish?— A. I 
 never took that much notice. We used to see eggs sometimes in piles and sometimes 
 .scattered out. 
 
 Q. And they used to be caught pretty numerously ? — A. Yes ; you could catch as 
 many as you had a mind to — you could take them out with a pitchfork. 
 
 JJi/ Mr. ArniHtrony : 
 Q. But how did you catch them as a I'ule ? - A. Well, we used to get in the ditch 
 and take them out. 
 
 Q. How many would you catch?- -A. Oh, we only caught a few for our own use. 
 ' Q. But you could have caught many of them ? — A. Oh, yes ; as many as we had a 
 mind to. 
 
 Q. And you think this dam has })revented fish from going up 
 Q. And the fish have l)ecome exterminated? — A. Yes. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you any other rivers here similarly situated except the dam ? — A. Oh 
 yes ; the Nanaimo Uiver, and the Chas(> River. 
 
 Q. Do they still go up these rivers? A. Yes ; the Nanaimo Uiver especially. 
 
 Q. Would they appear in about the same proixtrtions as between the two kiiuls ? — 
 A. Yes, I think so. 
 
 Q. And many salmon go up the Nanaimo now ? - A. Yes, at the same time of year 
 as tliey used to in the other. 
 
 Q. And they kill young, in numbers while going up? — A. Principally by the 
 
 Indians. 
 
 Q. And are many caught in the estuaries at the .sea?— A. They don t catch them 
 like they do on the Fraser River, but they could catch them if they wanted to. 
 
 Q. Are there any lakes on the Nanaimo River?- A. Yes ; small ones. 
 
 Q. And anything to prevent fish going up there ?— A. No. 
 
 Q. Do you see many dead fish anytime in the Nanaimo River ?— Yes ; a great 
 
 many. ' 
 
 Q. Do you think any return to the sea after going up to spawn?— A. \es ; a great 
 
 many get killed and die but niany return. 
 
 Q. Do you know this to be the Cfise in this other stream ?— A. Y''es ; before the 
 dam was put in, but we found few deat'. ones there— it was a short stream and easier to 
 
 Q. How long is the Nanaimo River up to the lakes?— A. About 20 miles to the 
 first lakes, and 20 l)ey€nd that to the othei' lakes. 
 
 Q. Do you know some of them retuin from the upper lakes ?— A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Have you any oyster beds around here ?— A. None nearer than Oyster Bay— 
 there is one up north at Nanoose Bay. 
 
 Q. Are they fished very much ?— A. I don't think any one fishes there except 
 Indians— in Oyster Bay two or thnse whitemen fish there. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. WUmof : 
 Q. Have you any experience in fishing for halibut ?— A. Not for halibut— I have for 
 
 cod and salmon. . o » lai 
 
 Q. What is the value of the big salmon in the market here ^— A. i!?l a-piece. 
 
 Q. And the .small salmon ?— A. Down to ten cents or a '• bit." 
 
 Q. Then you conclude in your mind that this dam has a tendency to destroy that 
 
 particular family of tish that belonged to Fish-Hawk Lake ?— A. Yes. 
 lOo— 24i 
 
 . 
 
■.. ( 
 
 v: : 
 
 372 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. And that Nanainio River is still frequented by considerable numbers of spring 
 salmon and the smaller fish ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Jiif Mr. Arinstronff : 
 
 Q. Do you know any thing about the sea fishing here?- -A. No. 
 
 Q. It has been stated you know, that they use these small mesh nets and haul up 
 large (juantities of these small tish on the beach after taking out those for market, and 
 leave the smaller ones to rot on the beach ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wilniot ; 
 
 Q. The object of my colleague and myself in asking these (juestions about the 
 .seines is, that it is feared that many young salmon are caught and thus ruthlessly 
 destroyed. — A. Oh, they don't catch many young salmon outside. 
 
 Q. Do you deal in fish at all ? — A. Only for what I recjuire for my own use. 
 
 Q. Is there a fish market here ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What fish are generally bi'ought in ? — A. Codfish, salmon, and all kinds. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the oyster fishery at all ? No, sir. 
 
 Mr. William lloos, who had previously given evidence, here stated : — 
 
 "It is absolutely necessary to use small meshed seines to catch the fish they require. 
 They would catch none unless allowed to use the small mesh, as herring ofter were very 
 small and go through vei'y fine mesh. In a whole season I have caught only three or 
 four young salmon, and it is really necessary to have half-inch mesh in the bunt of the 
 seine." 
 
 The Connuission tuljoui-ned at 5.20 p.m. ^o meet again in the same place at 10 a.m., 
 on 10th March. 
 
 Nanaimo, 10th March, 1892. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Commission was convened at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present : Mr. S. Wilmot, in the Chair ; Mr. Sheriflf Armstrong, and Mr. Secretary 
 W^inter. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAM GREEN, a native of England, fivo yeai-s in British Ct)lumbia, 
 resident of Nanaimo, describing himself as a trader, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. AVell, what would you like to put before the Commission ? -A. Well, about five 
 years auo I was residing on Naas Rivei-. 
 
 Q. Oh, yes ; the Naas River very well, sir ? A. Well, up where the Indians are 
 — some distance up river from where the fishermen are allowed to throw out their nets, 
 there is any (|uantity of fish, both spring salmon, silver salmon, and cohoes. The 
 cohoes only run late in the fall — the Indians put out seines in the river and in the 
 small rivers that fiow into it. 
 
 Q. It is Naas River you aie speaking of more particularly ?-- A. Yes; there are 
 three canneries there n- w. Fish is very scarce, and fifty or eighty miles up the Indians 
 put seines across the streams and catch any quantity of fish and destroy large numbers 
 of them. 
 
 Q. Then this seine fishing by Indians is beyond where the ordinary drift nets are 
 used ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have 1 een on the river? A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. You know where the boundary for fishing there is ? — A. Yes. 
 
 C^. AlK>ut sixteen or twenty miles beyond the British Columbia cannery ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And this fishing is beyond that ? A. Yes ; the Indians catch them to extremes 
 — moi-e than they do for food. 
 
)ers of spring 
 
 and haul up 
 market, and 
 
 lis about tlio 
 lus ruthlessly 
 
 'II use. 
 
 kinds. 
 
 they recjuire. 
 ;er were very 
 m\y three or 
 ! bunt of the 
 
 ce at 10a.ra., 
 
 h, 1892. 
 
 Ir. Secretary 
 ih Columbia, 
 
 3II, about five 
 
 ! Indians are 
 it their nets, 
 echoes. The 
 :' and in tlie 
 
 s ; there are 
 3 the Indians 
 rge numhers 
 
 rift nets are 
 
 yl—A. Yes. 
 1 to extremes 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 373 
 
 Q. How far up from the British Columbia laniiorv ; have you ever been on the 
 lakes on Naas River ( - A. Oh, yes ; tiie lakes are up 40 or nO miles from the river, and 
 s|)ring salmon run from the lakes into the river. 
 
 ii. Yes ; and small tiil)ulaiies as well running into the lake? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And is fishing carried on at the lake .' A. Xo ; right in the rivers and at 
 mouths of rivers running in. 
 
 Q. And is it late ; do the fish come up to spawn / — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And they are tished by the Indians ; diit't nets or .seines?- A. They just put 
 them across the streams and haul them in in luindreds at a time ; I would say that after 
 that I resided at the Forks of the Skeena. 
 
 Q. Well, before we leave the Naas lliver -so the Indians catch the.se fish by haul- 
 ing their seines across the stream .' A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And do they catch more than they want f<ir individual u.se .' A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do they do with them? —A. Well, when they catch them they clean them 
 and dry them for their own use. 
 
 ij. Do they take any down to the canneries? A. No: only for their own use. 
 They catch perhaps 1,0U0 in a day ; they clean as many as they can and the rest of 
 course they lay there and rot. 
 
 Q. And would they be mostly silver salmon or sockeye I— A. Both the silver 
 and the sockeye. 
 
 Q. And which do the Indians prefer? — A. The sockeye. 
 
 Q. And do they take the sjning salmon ? — A. Yes: they take them down to the 
 canneries. 
 
 Q. And not sockeyes to the canneries ? -A. N(j : not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. They send .spring salmon down to the canneiie.s, but sockeye they keep for their 
 own use? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What number of streams you think run into Xaas lliver above the limit for 
 fishing and the lake ? — A. There are numerous sti(»ains. 
 
 Q. And Indians are engagefl fisiiing in them ? - A. Well, there are three streams 
 about GO miles above the cannery, and it is there the Indians catch the fish. 
 
 Q. Can you form an estimate oi the average weight and size of these spring salmon 
 they catch (A. About .'5.") pounds. 
 
 Q. How large have you .seen them : the largest for instance? A. The Largest I 
 have seen I think weighed 78 pounds. 
 
 Q. Indeed ? An enormous fish. Would these fish be white-meated or red? -A. Red. 
 
 Q. Have you known of any being white-meated? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What inoportion? ~ A. About equal. 
 
 Q. Which is considered the best ? A. Well, the cannerymen say they can both 
 kinds and they say they find a better market for white than red. 
 
 Q. Have you ever travelled up any of these small streams yourself? Any distance 
 from the main river ? A. Well, I have not followed them any distance from the main 
 river right along, Ijut I have gone up Naas River and then gone over the mountains for 
 about 180 miles. 
 
 Q. Would these streams be large ? -A. Yes ; a pretty good size. 
 
 Q. And all frecpiented by salmon?- -A. Yes ; salmon all up the streams. 
 
 Q. May I ask your calling up there ? — A. Well, at the time I walked over I was 
 trading at the Skeena. 
 
 Q. Do these last remarks you made apply to Naas or Skeena?— A. Well, these 
 streams from the lakes flow into Naas River. 
 
 Q. And now you are referring to the Skeena ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, what about the Skeena ?— A. Well, I was residing on the Forks of the 
 Skeena trading among the Indians and some distance from the Forks there is a river 
 called Kia.shbiash. 
 
 Q. Is that near Babine Lake ?— A. No, I think Babine Lake is about 50 miles 
 beyond. 
 
 Q. And you are now speaking of the limit between Babine Lake and tidal water ? 
 
 A. Yes. Well, you .see the Babine Lake is between the Skeena River and Ablogate 
 
 River, and I am speaking of below this. At Kiashbiash River there is a large Indian 
 
TIWI' 
 
 I 
 
 374 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 village tlu'ie, uiul all the Indiiiiis put out traps— I hav»i seen tifty or sixty traps there. 
 They ha\p piles aci'oss the I'ivei- and they just let a basket down and they catch any 
 (juantity of tish. 
 
 Q. Would these be sprinjj salmon? A. No, the silver sidnion or .-ockeve. 
 
 (^. Not the cohot's'/ A. No. 
 
 C^. Well? A. Well, you see havinj; all these traps across the river and catchinj; 
 ai\y (|uantity of Hsli there, it niake< more limited tish down oji the river and where the 
 cannerymen are complaining of scarcity of lish. 
 
 Q. Do Indians catch tish in these traps for the canneries ? A. No, just for their 
 own use. 
 
 (}. What numljer of Iiidiana are there ?— A. There is a tribe of betw(*n 300 and 
 400 and about forty or tifty are left to catch tish duiinj,' the sunmier and the rest go 
 down to tisli for the canneries. 
 
 Q. Can you form any estimate of what these forty or tifty Indians would catch 
 during tli. seftson ? A. No, I could not say, but of course it is a great many. 
 
 C^. And all are diied? A. Ye.s. 
 
 i-i. And those are pi'incipallv silver salmon or sockeye! A. Yes. 
 
 (.1 Then there aie lots caught with seine below the town of Hazelton? Are these 
 traps aljove or below Hazelton ? A. About .seven miles ab<»ve on the KiMshbiash River. 
 
 t^. The Indians would want to catch them foi- their own food? A. Yes, 
 
 <^. Are sahu'ii less p'enty in the Skeena than formerly? A. Well, I could not «ay 
 — only wlat cannerymen say- and tish do not seem to I e running as ph'ntifully as they 
 used to do. 
 
 Q. Would you say that was becau.se canneries catch so many or because of the 
 great catch by the fndians? — A. Well, I tliink if there was simie one there to see these 
 Indian let many of them go it would be bit'.er. 
 
 (^). .\nd do they cacii more than they really want— they seldi mi do so?- A. Oh, 
 yes ; they catch more than they want -last sunnnei' on the Kiashbiash Ki\er I saw any 
 quantity of tish lying dead the Indians get them and take tlie roe out of them and 
 leave the bodies lying there. 
 
 Q. And that would be well on in the spawning sea.son ? — A Yes. 
 
 Q. And tliey dry the n e for their own use ? — A. Y( s, they dry the roe. 
 
 Q. Do you kiriw anyt'iing about the voung salmon their natural history, etc.? — 
 A. No, but I might say ther^' aie (juite a number of lakes around Hazelton and they 
 are full of tish. 
 
 Q. Do you know if these Indians catch the young fish by traps or < therwise? — A. 
 No, but they go <mt in winter and cut holes through the ice and bring them into 
 Hazel((m. 
 
 Q. What size would th"y be? A. I liav- seen ba.skets weighing two and three 
 pounds th<' average w uld be about two and half. 
 
 Q. And could you .say they were salmon?- A. No, I could not .say so. 
 
 Q. It is not likely they woul 1 b • salmon, l.ecause they would be either very little 
 or would be bigger? A. I may say last sunnner I was on the river and found an Indian 
 village and traj)s across and great quaniities of them lying arountl. 
 
 Q. And that was the system, you think, of the Indians f.om time imniem :rial 
 before the canneries could be estalnished ? A. Yes. 
 
 (}. And now do you think the habit of Indians catching ti.sh from time immemorial 
 would effect the run of ti.^h in the river .' Tlry always get plenty of food ? A. Oh, yes. 
 
 t^>. And then this reducticm nuist be put to the canners, would it not? — A. Well, 
 of cours", there have been more canneries gone up lately. 
 
 Q. \"es. I think there aie eight canneries on mouth of the Skeena? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And these eight canneries would take a large amount of tish, and I sliould think 
 it W(mld be that they would effect the fish more than the quantity caught by the Indians 
 — don't you think so ? — A. Yes ; I would think so. 
 
 Q. Because you see the Indians have gone on from time to time, and caught their 
 fish from the main supply, but now the suj)ply is otherwise reduced ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the Indians do not take the Ash caught up i-iver down to the canneries for 
 sale ? — A. No ; it is foi their own use. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISlIERr COMMISSION. 
 
 375 
 
 y triijtM tliere. 
 ey c-iitch iiuy 
 
 find fdtching 
 11(1 wliere the 
 
 jusf for their 
 
 v(>f!ii 300 and 
 id the rest ^i> 
 
 woidd cutch 
 IIIV. 
 
 ? Are these 
 
 lihiash River. 
 
 e.s, 
 
 could not Muy 
 
 itully as they 
 
 (WHuse of the 
 ■i to see these 
 
 so? A. Oh, 
 er I saw uny 
 of them and 
 
 le. 
 
 <tory, etc. ? — 
 
 toil and they 
 
 lerwise 1 — A. 
 ng them into 
 
 wo and three 
 
 r very little 
 nd an Indian 
 
 immem irial 
 
 '■ iinmemorial 
 -A. Oh, yes. 
 ?— A. Well, 
 
 A. Yes. 
 sliould think 
 the Indians 
 
 ;aught their 
 fes. 
 tanneries for 
 
 Q. Do rndiaiLs, fishing at the canneries, ever take home any .salted fir.h for their 
 domestic use in winter? A. Not, to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Hecause it is stated that the white salmon are given to the Indians for their 
 use -now, could they carry these uj) to their villages! A. No, sir. I know last 
 summer, up there, we would go out and the Indians woidd just put their pole down 
 anywhere and get a salmon. 
 
 C^. Tiien you don't think it prol)al)Ie that the Indians wo.ild take them up for their 
 own use / A. No ; though they might use them while at the cannery. 
 
 Q. Do the Indians prefer the white salmon? -A. I am suie I could not say. 
 
 {}. T suppose you know the white salmon is not (|uite so maiketaltle as the red? 
 A. Yes ; i)ut we heard last summer from cannerymen they were going to can the white 
 salmon because it is just as good as the red. 
 
 Q. You ar<^ speaking of s;jring salmon ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And they catch t'.iem uj to seventy and eighty pounds .' A. Yes. 
 
 Q. All enormous tish ? A. Yes. Kven in winter I know the Indians go out aiul 
 haul up very big Hsh. 
 
 ii. They would then be very low they would not 1k^ good, I should think ?— A. 
 Yes ; they aie very good. 
 
 y. Are there many white people at Hazelton? A. Yes; the Hudson l'>ay Com- 
 pany have (|uite a store and yiv. Cunningham. 
 
 Q. Do the Hudson Hay Company catch many tish there ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. The Indians are supjiosed to catch their own Hsh? -A. Yes. 
 
 JJt/ Mr, Armstrong : 
 
 Q. You say, Mr. (Jreen, the fish are considerably reduced in Naas l{iver are they 
 reduced to the same e.vtent in the Skeeiia .' No. Of cour.se, there are three canneries 
 on Naas lliver, but the Naas is not so large as the Skcena. 
 
 (.}. And you think fish are not reduced as much on the Hkeena as on the Naas? — - 
 A. No. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnnt : 
 
 Q. Yes. You .see there ai'e three canneries on Naas, and eight on the Skeena, but 
 the Naas is a much smaller river would it i)e half as large as the Skeena? A. No; 
 not half as large. 
 
 Q. I .see fr<mi a descr tion I have of it, a short distance above the "Windsor" 
 cannery it is thi-ee-cpiarters of a mile wide, and the Naas Hiver at the boundary is only 
 about 1,'200 feet wide. Does the Tndian fish on Sunday for their own use or do they 
 keep the Sunday? — A. They do on the Naas, but on the Skeena they do not. 
 
 Q. But in fishing for the canneries do they care about fishing on Sunday ? — A. No, 
 they don't. 
 
 Q. There are missionaries there ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And they are led pretty much by the missionaries are they ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do cannerymen fish on Sunday at all? — A. No, T don't think .so —the Sunday 
 is kept. 
 
 Q. Y'^ou are the tmly person we have found who has actually travelled over the 
 ground there, and it is very good information which you have given us. Do you know 
 anything (tf sea fi.sliing? — A. No sir. 
 
 Q. The Indians are not engaged in that — they are always waiting for the salmon ? 
 A. Yes ; they wait for the salmon. 
 
 Q. Are there missionaries up at the mouth of the river at Hazleton ? — A. No, not 
 at Hazelton. 
 
 Q. Do Indians stay at the cannery in winter or go up river 1 — A. There is an 
 Indian village at Mr. Cunningham's cannery, but most of them go to Fort Simpson. 
 
 Q. Where is Fort Simpson how far from the "Windsor" cannery? — A. About 
 fifty miles from Skeena lliver — they have to go aci-oss the gulf to reach it. 
 
 Q. I don't think we can ask you anything else we have got very goi'l information 
 from you and are much obliged to you. 
 
 No further evidence being forthcoming the Commission adjourned at 11.20 a.m. 
 to meet again at 3 o'clock p.m., at the same place. 
 
376 
 
 MARINE AND FIBHBRIES. 
 
 Nanaimo. lOtli >rarrh, 1892. 
 
 AJlft'noiiu Sfxxion, 
 
 The CoiDinissidM ii.s.s«mii1»1p(I ut th»> City Hull, ut 3.15 p.m. 
 
 Pri'sciit ; Mr. S. Wilnint in flic Clmii'; Mr. SliciiH' AniiHtron;,', (iiid ^fr. Sccrctury 
 
 Willt.T. 
 
 No cvidoiu'f Iwirv' t'liitlicoiniii;,', tin- ('Imiiimiii, ut \.'l') p.m., (Icclaictl the Commis 
 .sioii ii(l,j(»iii'm'(l. to miM't (i;,'(iiii fit Vancouver, at 10 a.m., on Saturday, l"_Mli Murdi, LSU'J. 
 
 Vancoivku, I5.('., Marili li'ih, l,si»L>. 
 Morning Sfuxion. 
 
 Tlif Commission was convened in tlic Court House at 10 a.m. 
 
 Present. :- Mr. S. Wilmot, in the Chair; Hon. I). W. Hij,'f;ins, Mr. Sherill' Arm- 
 stron;,' and .Mr. Secretary Winter. 
 
 The Chairman (after oalHnj,' the meeting to or<h'r, the room l)ein<f well tilled hy the 
 pul)lic) in declaring this Commission open, said to his brother colleagues and others, I 
 may mention in a hurried manner the ohjc^ct of the Commi.ssioii so no misunderstanding 
 may arise alxmt it. The object t)f th»! Connnis.sion is to get all the information possii)le 
 about the fish and fisheries of Ihiti.sh Columbia. Disputes for a long time have existed 
 with canners and others with n^gard to the Fraser lliver fisheries i)articularly, and this 
 has culminated in having a Commission appointed. Mr. Higgins and Mr. Armstrong 
 were appointed on behalf of tlie ])rovince, and I was appointed to sit with them. We 
 have j)roceeded with business ,so far with some f< or 10 days at New Westminster where 
 some 70 witnesses were examined, both canners and fishermen. We then ])roceeded to 
 Victoria and got information from canners and others on noi'thern rivers, etc., we then 
 adjourned to Kanaimo. JJefore leaving Victoria, we passed a resolution that we wnnld 
 come to Vancctuver our object in coming here was more piuticularly with the vi' of 
 ol)taining information about the deep-.sea fisheries, which I understand are liere en vd 
 into largely. So far, our meetings have been liarmonious, [)articularly at New \\ est- 
 minster and Nanjiimo -a little jarring took place at Victoria, and I hope we will get 
 along here harmoniously. We expect to get thrcmgh here this afternoon or evening, 
 and it is important we get through as soon as possible, as many impoi'tant questions are 
 pending our decision. We will j)i'ocee(l to take evidence from any <tne here who chooses 
 to give it. We will particularly like to hear about the halibut and deep sea fisheries 
 and I will now declare this Connnission t»pen. (To the Commissioners.) Woukl it 
 not be better to airange about our adjoui-nment fi'om here .so the public can know of 
 our movements? 
 
 Mr. Hi<i(iiNS : — Oh, we can sit to-day, and this afternoon, if necessary, can state our 
 further movements. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot : — Well, then, will it be understood that we will sit here to-day and 
 adjourn, and when we adjouin from here we will adjourn to New Westminster, with the 
 view of going down the i-ivei- to inspect it as well as we can at this season of the year. 
 The Connnission will endeavour to get some sort of craft and go down rjid inspect the 
 rivei' on Monday. 
 
 Mr. HnuiiNS: — Yes, Monday w I be the last day I can be here. ' 
 
 Mr. Ahmstkoxg 
 
 .es, 
 
 that 
 
 w I 
 
 Mr. K. V. WINCH, a native >f Canada, (5 years in liritish Columbia, a fish 
 merchant, and resident in Vancouvei was duly sworn. 
 liy Mr, Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, now sir, have you anyi ling to represent to this Commission with regard to 
 the salmon fisheries or other fisheries of British Columbia?- -A. Well, with regard to 
 the salmon fishery I only wish to state, with regard to licenses we are not properly 
 supplied with licenses in this city for the fresh fish market — there is a kind of monopoly 
 HOW as matters stand. 
 
h, 1892. 
 
 Tr. Secr«<t»iry 
 
 tli(> Coiniiii.s 
 Uuivli, IHD-J. 
 
 1. IMOI 
 
 "ilit'iid" Atiii- 
 
 Hllcd by the 
 M(l others, I 
 iderstaiuliii",' 
 tion iMissihh' 
 iiavo existed 
 !"ly, find this 
 
 Arnistroiij,' 
 them. We 
 lister wiiere 
 >n>eeeded to 
 te., we then 
 b we woidd 
 the vi' of 
 lere en cd 
 New \N est- 
 we will get 
 or evening, 
 uestinns are 
 vho eliooses 
 ea fisheries 
 
 Would it 
 m know of 
 
 iin state our 
 
 to-day ajid 
 er, with the 
 if the year, 
 inspect the 
 
 bia, a rish 
 
 h regard to 
 
 regard to 
 
 t properly 
 
 : monopoly 
 
 imiTiHii cor.irMiuA fishery c.'ommissio.v. 
 
 37 7 
 
 Mr. WlI.MOT : Perhaps it would lie just as well if .Mr. Inspector McNabb would 
 .state the direitittns he has just received from <Mtawa. on the subject of licenses. 
 
 Mr. .M(N.\nn handed in a lifter, tiatcd :\n\ March, |S!)2. which he had recently 
 received from the department at Ottawa, authoii/ing him to issue |t»() interim liceii.ses, 
 and which was read liy the Chairman. 
 
 .Mr. NVii, MOT ; -As you were .'^^|)eaking about licenses to supply the local trade for 
 the time being, I may state for the information of yourself and otheis piesent that dur- 
 ing the sittings of the lioard in New Westminster many eni|uiries weie made in le- 
 gard Jo interim licen.ses and a suggestion was sent to the ministei- that interim licenses 
 might be issued in the meantime to tho.se who weie tishin^i foi' local trade until some- 
 thing definite was decided in regard to standing regulations oi any altered ones, and 
 that a fee of f<\{) should be paid for these licenses ami that this fee would go to account 
 for any further license issued afterwards This is simply tojiermit the local traders ai.d 
 fishermen to go on with their woik now. This does not, I understand, apply to canners 
 who dt) not fish until later in .June or .luly 1 nuMcly state this so all may understand it. 
 
 Mr. Winch : With regard to the numliers, sir. 
 
 /J;/ Mr. Wiliiiitl : 
 
 i}. The inference to be drawn is that each />nn<i JkL J Iritish subject and fisher- 
 man should lj<' entitled to one license, and I j)i'esume from the wording of the coi-- 
 respondeiK'i' on the subjtict, that free/eis and exporters woulil l>eentitled to two licenses, 
 .so if they want more fish than those two would supply them with, they can Ituy from 
 regular fishermen it is i)ut forth, as explained, in order to allow fishermen to go on with 
 their work for local tra<le and export trade in spring salmon .' -.\. Well, I think that 
 would cover my ground you see we have to depend upon the fish dealers in New 
 Westminster to sujijily the whole tra»le of the city as w«'ll as far east as Winni|)eg, 
 and we were entirely in their hands. You .see the first of the fish that are caught will 
 certainly be shipped out of bhecountiv, and that leaves us with very high jirieos, and 
 then to take such fish as will not be reijuired for shipment that is you may say the 
 culled fish, and we can take it oi' leave it. 
 
 (^. And then the best fish are shijiped out of the country, and the worst left for 
 local mai'ket ' .\. Yes, always. 
 
 />'// Mr. //!ifi/iiis : 
 
 Q. Were there no licen.ses here at all .' A. None; there has never l)een any. 
 
 Q. What was the rea.son? A. Well, the reason was, as far as I eouhl find out 
 from Mr. ^^owat, if one license was issued he would have to is.sue licenses to every fresh 
 fish man in the city anti that would use up all the licenses. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. W'ihiinf .- 
 
 Q. And do I understand you never had one license? A. Not one we never had 
 one license. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT : Did you understand how they stood in Victoria? 
 
 Mr. HnajiNs : W(?ll, 1 thought there was one. 
 
 Ml'. WtLMOT : Mr. Inspector McNabb, can you give us information has any 
 licenses been issued in Victoria and Vancouver? 
 
 Mr. Mc'N.\nn. There were several individual fishermen fiom Vancouver who had 
 licenses to fish on the Frr. ^er Kivei', i)ut they .sold their fish to canners on the Fraser 
 River they fished on the Fraser Kiver, and I presume had license.^.. 
 
 Mr. Winch. Angus Mclnnes moved over her > -T know one had a saloon here — 
 I was selling about four tons of fresh fish a week ai d I could not get any. 
 
 //// Mr. iVIhnof ; 
 
 Q. It seems veiy ^trange that in a large city like this there should be no licenses ? 
 — A. It is very serious iiuieed. 
 
 Q. One of the objects of th s Commission is to inve>tigate such matters, and you 
 see the recoinuiendaticm has been made that iiitMiin licenses be issued ? — A. Well, I had 
 thecontrict for supplying the Canadian Pacific Hai.way and the steamers, and they 
 require a large supply before they sail, but we had difficulty in getting fish. 
 
^li 
 
 378 
 
 MARINE AiVn FISHERIES. 
 
 'TU 
 
 4 t 
 
 lii/ Mr. //i</</lns 
 
 Q. T think tlioro is no (litTeivn -c < it' opinion amoiif^ tho Commissioner < .about the 
 senst^h'ss wfiy in which t lese licenses liuvc l)een mana^eil. \vlie?i T see pood British sul; 
 jects cominjf up in Westminster and statintc tliev could not j^et a license and yet others 
 got them and si (Id them? — A. Well, I have three boats lied up, and I cm tell you T 
 intended to work them wheth -r J was Kned or not. 
 
 />'// Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Well, but ^^r. Winch let ine tell you that these interim licenses will not make 
 any ditfei'ence with any licensesthatmay cometiut afterwards, but to make pro\i>-ion t'orthis 
 fish trade, etc., the.se li''enses are is ucd, and it will not result that if a man has one now 
 he will not neces-arily be entitled tn another'.' — A. Will frei'/ers be allowed to increase 
 tiieir lunnber .' 
 
 i). Wt'll, that is a nv.tttjr to be consideicd ac;aln .' A. You km' here [ deal in Hsh 
 anil s.'ll it out in pounds. I handU' niniv fresh Hsh than any man in llritish Columbia 
 that is actually in connection with t: e retail tr.ide in the cities ot' N'ictori.i. \'anc 'uver 
 and Westminster, I will handle more hsh than any other man. 1 enij)loy .•^even lUen 
 here, and they are all m;irried men. and fnun what I read in the pajiers, I think I employ 
 as many as the c inncries in that i'e;,'ard — then I employ men in the dee])-sea fisheries too. 
 
 (,). What mai'kets do you sell your d ep sea tisli in? A. Well, I have not sold 
 much fresh salmon except in the innnediate city — then we have shipped as far east as 
 Winnijiej,' and to .small towns .donp the line, but it has been .so ditlicalt tu get tish that 
 we ccadd not .send much to thos • plac s. 
 
 Q. lUit you i..v(> had i. ^, licence before? -V. T w vei- had any. 
 
 ii. Well, without putting it too low or coi-responilingly too high, how many licenses 
 would suit your trade ? A. Five would suit for the city trade to gi\(' me sutticient 
 <iuan!ity of lisli for our own use in the city. 
 
 (.}. Would y(Uir own men tish those five licenses? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (,>. Hecause a system has prev.uled that jiersons getting licenses would fai-m them 
 out, find I thiidv my brother Conunissioiers are dead against that altitgether? 
 
 Mr. Hi(!(iiNvs. -Oh, yes. 
 
 .Mr. Winch. - Well, any tiiiif T have not my boats at Westminster and the Hsh do 
 not come in to sui)i)!y the wants of the people of Ih'itisli Coluuiljia, those licenses can be 
 taken away from me. 
 
 Mr. Hic.fiiNS. That is f lir that is right. 
 
 />V/ Mr. Wifniof : 
 
 Q. Yes, that is fair, but the system has pre\ailed aiul licens(^s gi\cn to pai'ties have 
 got into tlu> canneries" hands and ha\c been farmed out ? -A. I dont kno v anything 
 abf)ut the canners, but I wish to get emaigh licenses to su|)ply my tiade. 
 
 Q. The whole object cf the Connnission is to iin cstigate these matters ? A. ^Vell, 
 I started in with the city I came in just after the Hre. and it has been a \'ery diliicult 
 thing to get Hsh to supply the city you .see in the season every boat is turned into the 
 canne'ii's and we cannot get Hsh for our trade. 
 
 Q. Is it spring salmon or sockeye ? -\ Spring salmon, people want fresh Hsh here 
 in season, and as regards the hatchery, why should you hatch oidy .sockeye Hsh ? 
 
 Q. Wi'll, when the hatchery was Hrst started it was intended to only hatch the 
 spring salmon or " (|ninnat,' l)Ut it would appear that the " (piinnat "' was not tlu^ i-oni- 
 mercial Hsh of the Fi'a,ser River and tiie department toi>k the information given them 
 by the canners and others, that the only commercial Hsh here was the sockeye. and so the 
 department took the sockeye t'jr breeding pui'iioses 1 A. Well, 1 ilon't use it in my 
 fresh i..-ih tiade here. 
 
 Ji// Mr. Ili(/(/in.<i : 
 
 Q. What do you think of the "(|uinnat"? — A. Well, we would want the spring 
 salmon for our trade, and you see that is why we come in contact with the others, 
 Q. Is it a Hne Hsh? — -A. Oh ves, it is a Hue Hsh. 
 
 1 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 379 
 
 (Mi jibout the 
 1 British sul; 
 iitl yet (ttliers 
 •111 tell vnu I 
 
 vill not iii;ike 
 
 \ iMdii fcM'this 
 
 has one now 
 
 1 to increase 
 
 I (leal in fish 
 
 Coiiunbia 
 
 I. ^'!lnenlvel• 
 
 •y .-even .nen 
 
 ink I (Mnjiloy 
 
 tishei'ies too. 
 
 have not sold 
 
 as t'ai' east as 
 
 ''et tish that 
 
 liU Mr. ]\'ifoH>f : 
 
 Q. Are you from the eastern })rovinces? — A. i am from Ontario — Cobourji;. 
 
 Q. Then you have no experience of the salmon in the eastern ])rovinces? —A. No, 
 sir, you say licenses should yo to only J»ritish subjects? 
 
 Wc/il, you see there are men working' here — seininj^ for black cod-fish - and 1 take 
 all their tish and then two other men I take all theii- fish, besides other men T have 
 constant in my employ, and then 1 will have to have other men in Westminster, and 
 you see the ([uantity of men I will have to have to handle these tish. Now thei(^ is 
 another man here who fishes for smelt and herrinj,' in winter time, but not in summer 
 time — he is iwirred from tishing in the river and it comes hard upon them if only iJritish 
 subjects are allow(Hl, but it would be better than to let in the Americans. 
 
 Q. Hut if they have been here lonjjf tlun' should be jiritish subjects you see one 
 great comphiint has been made that many outsiders conu! in and tish '.' -A. Oh yes, that 
 is rij^ht. 
 
 Mr. Wit/MO'i". -1 may say it is the unanimous ojiinion of the Commission that^ noiu^ 
 but British subjects should j;et licenses. 
 
 Ji>/ Ml'. Ai'iiisfriiHi/: 
 
 ii. You catch any other fishes but smelt ! A. Flounders, halibut. 
 Q. Do you catch any flounders here? -A. Y(!s, we catch them in boats with seines. 
 Q. Any halibut ? A. Yes, some in the bay, tlu; larj^e (juantities though are cau<:ht 
 farther iioith. 
 
 nany licenses 
 me suflicient 
 
 Id farm them 
 
 er '! 
 
 id the fish do 
 censes can be 
 
 ) parties have 
 lo A anything 
 
 ? A. Well, 
 very ditiicult 
 rned into the 
 
 •esh tish here 
 
 lish .' 
 
 ly hatch the 
 not tint com- 
 I given them 
 k'e, and so the 
 
 use it in my 
 
 It tl 
 
 le spring 
 
 otiiers. 
 
 Ji;/ Mr. Wilnint .- 
 
 Q. Are you identified with the company that ai'e catching halibut and shipping 
 them east ? —A. In a certain way, F bought their fisli and shipped them east. 
 
 Q. Has it b(^en profitable so far? — A. Well it is this way, we have no markets, W(^ 
 have the fish and means of catching them, but we have no markets they don't us(^ 
 much halibut in the east. 
 
 (^. What do you mean by "east"? — A. Well, in Montreal for instance, a ton of 
 halibut would glut the market, then in Boston and eastern American cities we have the 
 Atlantic halibut there before us. Then, again, we have many disadvantag(\s in the ways 
 (if shippini' if we want to send halibut to Chicaifo it has actuallv to "d round by way 
 of Boston. 
 
 Q. And do you have to send halibut to Boston to sell in Chicago ? —A. Y'^es, I 
 believe there is a large company in Boston that control tlu^ whole trade. 
 
 Q. The British Cohimliia tisliermcn are virtually controlled by Boston dealers ? — A. 
 Yes, but r think they will make room for us in time, I think we will manage to get a 
 foot-hold soon. 
 
 Q. Then the e\ idencc so far is that a fair and large trade can l>e cultivated with 
 regard to halibut fishing here .' — A. Oh, yes ; it is sure to come : we need a little pro- 
 tection and symjiathy to helji us along. 
 
 Q. What duty do you pay on halibut going to i'.oston ?-- -A. One cent a pound. 
 
 Q. Has the representation In^en made that if fish was coming in as American tish 
 they will go in duty free .'■ .\. 1 have not heard of that. 
 
 Q. it is jiractised ill <)ntario : fish sent in as American lish go in duty fr(!e ; a 
 Canadian lisherman will sell his nets nominally to the Americans and tluMi the lish goes 
 in as American fish .' A. Yes; well, I think before the next November or December 
 comes along we will find a great many of the fishermen from the eastern provinces out 
 here catching the fish and sending them to the Stat(>s, and it will need a good deal (>f 
 l)rotection : this haliliut lishery is just beginning, and it will not do to let it run like 
 the salmon fishery. 
 
 Q. Now, you have told u> about the halibut ; have you ship])(Ml any black cod ?-— 
 A. Well, there are some in the market : we catch the skil : we catch black cod here; 
 it is diirerent to Atlantic cod : it is a ditl'erent tish from the skil that conies in. 
 
 L'od-fish we catch u]i here by hand lines, and it 
 
 Q. 
 
 vre tfKiy smallei 
 
 die 
 
 A. Oh. the c( 
 
 will weigh from oO to 70 pounds 
 
380 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. And the skil ? — A. From four to nine pounds : it is ;i smaller fish ; it has a flat 
 head, very round, and the meat is pure white, very white ; I will get some and show you. 
 
 By Mr. Hiygins : 
 
 Q. Where are they caught ? — A. Not hei-e ; I cannot give you the proper location! 
 but I believe it is .300 or 400 miles this side of the boundary. 
 Q. Queen Charlotte Islands ? — A. Yes, about there. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Are fish sent over the American boundary ? — A. I don't know ; I have shipped 
 it to Toronto and Quebec ; but they have no skil there ; now tiie tish is well thought 
 of; many of my customers here think a great deal of the lish. 
 
 Q. It was represented to us at Nanaimo that cod oi- skil would not dry as well as 
 the Atlantic tish ; they cannot dry them for the foreign maiket. — A. Xo ; they cannot 
 l)e dried, but they can be pickled in salt very well. 
 
 Q. Then black cod or skil is a mucli more edible tish than the Atlantic tish ? — .\. 
 Well, I don't know anything about the Atlantic fisheries : only I know they are selling 
 just as well as (iJeorgia-ljoned cod-fish. 
 
 Q. Then the ling ; the ling is what you call your cod here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You see these local names confuse them as to market values, etc. ; you have 
 skil, black cod and ling : are they distinct kinds of fish ? A. Well, I think ling and 
 black cod fish are same kinds of fish. Mr. Ladner, do you know anything about it .' 
 
 Mr. ^^'ILMOT. Mr. Inspector McNabb might know something about it. 
 
 Mr. McNabh.- 
 ling are very much 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. 
 Mr. McN.\»n. 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. 
 
 -The true cod does not exist in British Columbia watei's, but the 
 
 like the Atlantic ling. 
 
 But the Atlantic ling are quite distinct from the Atlantic cod. 
 
 Oh, yes : quite distinct and the cod are (juite diti'erent to the ling. 
 
 Well, the object of asking these (|uestions is to get information 
 about these fish. — A. Well, the ling and the cod-fish are one and the same fish as far as 
 I can find out fron> all fishermen. 
 
 ^Ir. McNahh.- Oh no ; if you see a ling and a cod fish alongside of each other you 
 would .see the ditl'erence — the fins, etc., are ([uite difi'erent. 
 
 A'// Mr. ni/inof : 
 
 Q. The ling with us are more of the style of an eel— they have a continuous row 
 of fins right to the tail ? -A. Well, tiiat is the kind we catch here. 
 
 Q. And the codfish has not that continuous kind of fin ? A. T have not handled 
 any of them like tiiat. 
 
 Q. And you think it is not advisable that licenses should be made transferable at 
 all .'—A. Xo sir : I would not think so. 
 
 ii. You asked the leason some little time ago why sockeye was bred at the hatchery 
 instead of " (juinnat " can you give us any information from your own knowledge as 
 to the benefit derived from the hatchery ? A. No ; none at all. 
 
 Q. You -say men who fish , with you fish with seines ? A. Yes; right out in the 
 harbour there are some of the fisheruien here who will give evidence that they tish 
 with the .seine. 
 
 Ill/ Mr. Arinxtronij : 
 
 With 
 
 (^ W(> are much obliged to you for the information you ha\e given us. -A. 
 regard to the (juantities of licenses -two licenses will be of very little beneht. 
 
 Q. l)Ut, they will l)e better than nime-will they not? — A. Yes sir ; but if any 
 considerable time between now ami when the licenses would be issued it will be of veiy 
 littli' l)enefit. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. Wi/inot : 
 
 Q. You can purchase from others who have them? — A. No, that would not do 
 eithei' -oh, vou mean to liuv fish from them? 
 
it has a flat 
 id show you. 
 
 ►er location) 
 
 ave shipped 
 ^ell thought 
 
 Y as well as 
 hey cannot 
 
 c tish ?— A. 
 are sellinsi' 
 
 ir. 
 
 ; you have 
 k ling and 
 ix)ut it ? 
 
 n-s, but the 
 
 ic cod. 
 ti) the ling, 
 nformation 
 ill as far as 
 
 1 othei' vou 
 
 nuou.s row 
 
 i)t handled 
 
 isferable iit 
 
 e hatL'hery 
 jwledge as 
 
 )ut in the 
 they tish 
 
 A. With 
 
 but if any 
 be of vei'v 
 
 kl not do 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 381 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Yes : it is just for the pre.sent it may be a few days or a month 
 before the others are issued. 
 
 Mr. HKiCiiNS, — I wish a subpo-na issued for Mr. Allan, a hotel-keeper here — I wish 
 to lind out ab(»ut the licenses he had. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh, yes. 
 
 The secretary was then directed to make out a subixena calling uj>on Mr. Allan to 
 l)e present before the Cortnuission at 2 p.m. 
 
 JOHN KELLY, a native of Newfoundland, — for two years in British Ct»luml)ia, 
 describing himself as of no particular occupation, though bred a fisherman, a resident of 
 Vancouver, was duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wifn>ot : 
 
 Q. Well sir, what have you got to say — what do you come before this Commission 
 for? — A. Well sir, I will tell you the truth — I am on my oath. I have been handled 
 very badly since I came here — we bought twine and made nets — we bought enough to 
 run nets out to the lighthouse there and we have never wet it yet we spent all the 
 money we had and are now nearly done up. 
 
 Q. R nv are you done up ? — A. Well, 1 had to get a h(mse and the wind blows 
 into it in the fall and the boys aie woiking at it there- I have three sons of my own. 
 
 Q. But why could you not u.se this twine? A. I could not get a license. 
 
 Q. Why? — A. The cannerymen had them all — they had all the licenses. 
 
 Q. Then do I understand you there was no licenses because all were taken up? — 
 A. There were no licenses foi- me — I could not get employed at all. 
 
 Q. Then you could not get a license and you feel aggrieved at that ? — A. Yes ; I 
 could not get one nor my boys either. 
 
 Q. Anything else ? — A. Well, there was a cousiii of mine came here and he brought 
 his twine with him and he left too ; he could not use them ; he could not get license. It 
 ruined him anyway. 
 
 Q. Do you know of other persons getting licenses since you applied ? — A. I don't 
 know of anything except myself. 
 
 Q. Did you tender monev, too? —A. Yes; one vear it was $5, and last year it was 
 .■?20. 
 
 Q. Were you willing to pay $20? — A. Yes ; I know nothing else to do, except work 
 on the water. 
 
 Q. Have you anything else to say? — A. No; sir. 
 
 Q. And in Nova Scotia, did you fish there ? — A. No ; not Nova Scotia. T don't 
 belong to Nova Scotia. I come fi-om a better country than Nova Scotia. (Laughter.) 
 I come from Newfouiidland. 
 
 Q. And don't you think this a better country ? — A. No ; I don't. My friends have 
 gone back. 
 
 Q. And what kind of fish did you fish in Newf lundland ? — A. Well, all kinds, sir. 
 
 Q. And what kinds do you fish for? A. Oh, well I fished for soles and bad heads 
 and all sorts. 
 
 Q. Well, you might fish for soles liere ? — A. Well, perhaps so. 
 
 Q. You would not want a license to fish for soles here : what others did you get? — 
 A. Oh, cai)elin and cod and all kinds. Now, 1 am able to tell you just what you asked 
 this man who was here. 
 
 Q. You think the cod the same as you catch in Newfoundland ? -A. Yes ; just the 
 same. Then at honi" we catch black cod, but here the oil is in the liver. 
 
 Q. You have .seen the cod that is caught heie ? — A. 1 have seen almost all of them. 
 I have caught capelin, that is bait for the fish. 
 
 Q. Well, then, you think the cod is the same here, except one has oil in its body 
 while the other has oil in its liver .' — A. Yes, sir ; that is straight. 
 
 Q. And what do you think of ling? — A. Well, I ha\e not caught many of them. 
 I am a stranger out here, but after a while I will catch all of them. 
 
382 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 -* 
 
 Q. Have you caught halibut ? — A. No, sir. I have caught them ou the hanks. 
 
 Q. Then you think the main grievance i.s that you ha\e come liere and you cannot 
 fish ? -A. Yes, sir ; and would you not think it a grievance after coming here and buy- 
 ing a house and fetching twine here, etc. ? 
 
 Q. Well, sir, I hope you can do better? — A. And all my boys too, sir. 1 tell you 
 gentlemen it is a shame ; here are Italians and Chinese and all sorts at work fishing, and 
 good Englishmen and Biitish subjects on their own soil cannf)t get a license; that is 
 what England does everywhere ; she gets new countries for people to go to after hard 
 fighting and work, and then very fine Englishmen and Irishmen go aiound and cannot 
 get anything to do. Is that right, sir ; is that the i)roper thing in our own country .' 
 (Applause.) 
 
 The Chairman. — Order, order, please. 
 
 Q. Then you think Italians and others are not as good as Englishmen ? A, 
 (emphatically) No, sii' ; I know they are not. I have Ijeen in their countries : 1 know 
 them ; many a blow have I put over their heads. (Laughter.) Oh, I have been among 
 them ; why in Sicily once two of us licked aljout a dozen of them : psliaw, a good sturdy 
 Englishman or Irishman is worth a half a dozen of them ;uiy day. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Who did you apply to for licens«! ? ~A. Mi'. Op})eidieiner was one ; then the 
 inspector. He told me there was no licenses — the caniierymen had tiieni all. 
 
 By Mr. H'ujyuis : 
 
 Q. Wliat did he tell you ? A. Oh, one thing and another: but he didn't ask me 
 questions like this gentleman has been doing, like :\ gentleman shoultl. I understood 
 the canneries had them all. 
 
 Q. But you would be interested to know that the records don't show that cannery- 
 men got all f — A. Well, I don't know. We want to get licenses, if jtossible, and if we 
 get tiiem the money won't go home to Italy, or it won't go to China either, as such a lot 
 of it does now to the shame and disgrace of the country, while <(ur own people can do 
 nothing. I do hope you gentlemen will remedy the matter. I have three boys, and we 
 are all tishevnu'n and have our t>vine, etc., and we are not fitted for nuich of any other 
 calling. It is really very hard that we cannot get licenses. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, sir, your complaint is recorded. That will do. 
 
 A. V\'. WRIGHT, a native of Canada, six. years in British Columbia, a fish-dealer, 
 and resident of Vancouver, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wi/niuf : 
 
 Q. Now, ^Ir. Wright, will you submit your views or complaints to the Conimi.ssion 
 - — whatever you may have to say ?— A. W^ell, the first subject I would like to mention 
 is that I represent the IJritish Columbia Fishing and Trading Company, of Vancouver, 
 as .secretary-treasui-er. 
 
 Q. Well, sir? — A. The first thing I would like to mention ai'e licenses. Last yeai- 
 we applied for licenses, but we were not furnished. This year weajjplie i for ten licenses. 
 W^e have large orders for .salmon tVoni eastern Canada and the United States, and we 
 ai'e not able to fill them. 
 
 Q. For what leason ? A. Well, no licenses are issued yet. 
 
 Q. And you cannot supply youi' customeis for want of licen.ses, is that it, sir I A. 
 Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you been engaged in work before last year? A. This company has been 
 organized about six months, and Fader Brothers carried on the business before that. I 
 am only speaking of my bus ne.ss for this year practically the same comj)any applied 
 for licen.ses last year. If any provision can be made in the meantime, the same as fen- 
 Mr. Winch, I would \ery much like to have it done. 
 
 Q. Well, I simply read the letter from the department to the iiispector authorizing 
 him to i.ssue in erim licenses. — A. Of course, shipping in car-loads as we do, two licenses 
 would be of very little use to us. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FfSHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 383 
 
 ' l)anks. 
 you t-anniit 
 If and buy- 
 
 1 tell you 
 ti.sliiii>j. and 
 ISO ; tl>at is 
 ) after hard 
 and t-annot 
 M country .' 
 
 nnen ? - A. 
 OS : ] know- 
 boon anion;,' 
 
 ,'ood sturdy 
 
 er.) 
 
 " ; thon tho 
 
 In't ask nie 
 understood 
 
 at eannery- 
 S and it' wo 
 IS such a lot 
 iple can do 
 oys, ;ind Aye 
 • anv other 
 
 fish-dealer, 
 
 Commission 
 to mention 
 Yancouyei-, 
 
 Last year 
 ten licenses. 
 :es, and Aye 
 
 it, sir? A. 
 
 y has been 
 )i"e that. I 
 my aj)plied 
 ame as for 
 
 luthorizin;,' 
 ;wo licenses 
 
 Q. It is a question if you want licenses at all for halibut ? -A. Yes; but lam 
 speaking of salmon. These men won't carry up twu ur throe salmon, and it would l)e 
 very dithcult to gather tish up. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Arins/rotii/ : 
 
 Q. But if fishermen got licon.ses, could you not got fish from them? — A. Well, but 
 then we are at a disadyantage when Mr. Winch and Mr. Port get licenses. 
 Q. Oh, but you are not thoy liayo no licenses now. 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— No. You are all on the same footing for this year. 
 
 B;/ Mr. Iligr/ins : 
 
 Q. Did Fader Brothers have iiconsos last year '. A. Thoy noyor had license.s. 
 Q. Wore thoie oyer any licenses issued for Vancouyer ? A. No : not at all. Theie 
 has noyer Ijoon any that J kno\\ of. 
 
 />V Mr. WIfnmt : 
 
 (i. Hayo you any knowledge o: this halilnit trade? A. Yo~, f haye. 
 
 Q. Is this company identified with catching tho fish lately and shipping them ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 i}. Has your success in c itching thorn Ijoea yory satisfactory? Yes, tho halil)ut is 
 
 very plenty. 
 
 (.}. And do thoy take in eastoi'ii mai'kots as well as the eastern halibut? — A. 
 Yes, our roprosentatiyt% Mr. (irant, who has just returned, tells us thoy take bettor in 
 some places than eastern halibut —the trouble is chiefly that we ca-inot get express 
 service. 
 
 Q. Have tlie profits been remunerative? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. And then it looks to become a very profitable business? — -A. Yes 
 
 Q. And if you can do business with Chicago and other western cities it Avill bo still 
 more remunoratiyo ? -A. Yes, we propo,se establishing an agency at Winnipeg, 
 
 liij Mr. I/if/i/ltis : 
 
 Q. If you cannot get a license wou d it be remuneratAe? — A. Well, if there were 
 no licenses given there would be no salmon caught I suppose. 
 
 Q. You speak of salmon ? A. Yes." 
 
 Q. And you would have to buy fr.mi others? A. Yes, so-ne one Avould have to 
 have licenses. 
 
 Q. And if you had to buy them it would place you at a serious disadvantage would 
 it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are these halibut caught out far from the coast? Th' se supplies that you have 
 obtained Ayere they out any distance on banks ? — A. No, sir ; I have be.n up several times 
 to the fishing grounds — we find during the suunner season hdibut come down very close, 
 and as soon as the cold season comes they go up north almost to the Alaskan lioundary 
 — you will find them there very plentiful. 
 
 ny Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. You have our Canadian fish at the Boundary then? — X. Well, they are certainly 
 very loyal — they wait for us to calch them. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. And would the fishing be outside — off' some distance from the coast? — A. Well, 
 no; our fi.shing is mostly within tho three mile limit. 
 
 Q. My object in asking you this is to find out \yhere fishing is done, because I do 
 not think it is necessary for you to get a license for deep-sea fi.shing, though I am not 
 quite prepared to say exactly T think in the inlets and bays licenses are necessaiy, but 
 not in outside waters?— A. Thoie i one matter I would like to say. We used a beam 
 trawl like what is u.sed off" tho English coast and in trawling off the coast here for hali- 
 but or !iny hsh we may take in, we may take young salmon. Well, how would that 
 effect us— we don't need a license for it but if we take salmon? 
 
 Q. Do you use a long beam trawl ,' A. Yes, about 40 feet. 
 
 Q. It sweeps along the bottom and takes in everything ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
384 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. The opinion is in England and other countries that this trawl is very destruc- 
 tive because it takes in everything along the bottom and destroys vast (|uantities of 
 young and immature fish ? — A. Well, it is not necessary to kill the small fish — the fish 
 all come up alive that I have noticed in the net. and the small ones not used for com- 
 mercial purf osts are thrown overboard. 
 
 Q. Well, that is at present, no doubt, Vjecause the commercial needs for fish are 
 somewhat limited ? — A. Well, perhaps — we use the same trawl. 
 
 Q. What size of meshes in the bag ? A. The meshes decrease towards the l)ag. I 
 think they would be 2^ inches extension. 1 1 inch square. 
 
 Q Well, now, what sort of fish do you catch in tlis trawl ? — A. Well, soles, and 
 flounders, and halibut. 
 
 Q. Have you soles here, the true sole ? — A. Yes, sir ; we have got brill, too. 
 
 Q. Do you catch soles with the others? — A. Yes ; brill is caught occasionally with 
 halibut and flounders, dog-fish, etc. 
 
 Q. What is the average size of soles you catch? — A. Well, from 4 inches long to 
 about 8 inches. 
 
 C^. They are pretty brofid, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; they are rather broader 
 than long. 
 
 Q. And brill? — A. They are larger again ; 14 to 16 inches long. 
 
 Q. And cod are larger yet ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And salmon, what size would you catch ? — A. Oh, any salmon that might be in 
 the water. 
 
 Q. Adult fish or would they be young ? —A. Oh, no ; adult fish. 
 
 Q. Any herring ? -A. No. 
 
 Q. Flounders? — A. About 12 to 14 inches long. 
 
 Q. My desire in asking you is that there is a desire on the part of the (lovernment 
 to protect the young fish so they may grow to marketable size and be usef-l. And 
 where are these shipped to ? — A. To the North-west and other places. 
 
 Q. Then you are one who does not think Canada is a f(»reign country ? — A. Oh, no ; 
 we have shipped considerable to the United States, Boston and New York. About 
 taking the small fish ; I have never seen the small fish ; I do not think the breeding 
 grounds are in shore ; we have done our fishing in deep waters and I have never seen 
 the young fish in those waters. — A. No ; the breeding grounds are in rivers and appar- 
 ently they do not stay in those waters. 
 
 Q. No ; but you see there would be small brill and soles and flounders, etc., in the 
 neighbourhood of where you catch the big ones? — ^A. No; not neces;.<irily. Now we 
 never see small halibut. We catch all sizes of big ones, but the breeding grounds seem 
 to be outside. 
 
 Q. But would not the little ones be on rough Ijottom ? — A. No ; we cannot get fish 
 on rough bottom. 
 
 Q. But on a gravelly bottom with stones like this (ink-bottle), the young of 
 flounders will run right into the gravel and soon be out of the way ? — A. Well, a trawl 
 would take a stone like that in. We fish on sandy bottom and have never seen small 
 < >nes. 
 
 Q. Then you think the halil)ut fishery will become very important to British Col- 
 umbia? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What si/e of sole did you say you take? A. AVell, aV)OUt 10 inches. We 
 hai'dly think it right that we should not have any licenses in Vancouver. New West- 
 min.ster seems to get the whole of them. 
 
 Q. The trouble lies here, with a large number of canning establishments and then 
 
 ies like yourself all getting licenses, cjuery : woulfl it not be too many for the river? 
 
 i ■ 
 
 Ti 
 
 ^"ouble is to fix it so the river will not be over-fished. 
 
 Mr. Hiooixs. — Do you not think that would arrange itself? 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Well, yes; it might l)e a "survival of the fittest." 
 Mr. Wrkjiit. — Well, we think we should be encouraged ; we have invested a large 
 amount of money in the business. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 886 
 
 s very destruc- 
 it (|Uiiiitities of 
 I tish— the fisli 
 ; used for com- 
 
 ^da for tish are 
 
 •ds the bag. I 
 
 'ell, soles, and 
 
 lill, too. 
 asionally with 
 
 inches long to 
 
 ather broader 
 
 It might be in 
 
 e Government 
 usef-1. And 
 
 f— A. Oh,no; 
 kTork. About 
 : the breeding 
 \e never seen 
 ?i's and appar- 
 
 s, etc., in the 
 ily. Xow we 
 grounds seem 
 
 ■annotget fish 
 
 the young of 
 AV'ell, a trawl 
 er seen small 
 
 ) British Col- 
 inches. AVe 
 New West- 
 
 ?nts and then 
 for the river? 
 
 ested a large 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh, yes ; I merely throw this out to see if you think it can be over- 
 done ; you see if there are so many getting licenses here and Kf> many in AVestminster, 
 and so many canning establishments all getting licenses, it might over-fish the river ; 
 the object is not to do this if possible. 
 
 Mr. HiGdiNS. — But would people catch fish if they could nctt sell them 1 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. -Well, we have fijuiid that great quantities were caught and then 
 thrown away. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;gins. — Yes ; but I think it would fix itself ; it is debarring people from 
 getting licenses that gives all the trouble. 
 
 % 3fr. Wifniof : 
 
 Q. Have you anything else, sir, you wish to say ? — A. No, sir. 
 Mr. Armstrong. — -We are much obliged to you, sir, for your information ; it has 
 been very interesting. 
 
 advantages 
 
 JOHN INGLEHART, a native of Quebec, four years in British Columbia, a 
 fisherman, and resident of Vancouver, was duly sworn. 
 
 £y Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Well, sir, what have you to represent ? — A. Well, I heard that last man say 
 they were not able to buy fish from the fishermen ; I fished last fall ; I got a license 
 and I came last fall to sell my fish, but they would not l)uy my fish ; I saw lots of 
 Indians there selling fish and I could not sell my fish, but had to go around town and 
 sell them as best I could. 
 
 Q. Well, where were the supply of fish these people obtained ; where did they get 
 them ? — A. Well, I think they got them fi-om Indians ; I see lots of Indians come 
 here and they have no licenses and they sell their fish. 
 
 Q. And you think if Indians sold fish without licenses you labour under dis- 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What net do you fish with ?— A. I fish with sockeye net, a drift net. 
 
 Q. Where do you fish? — A. Right around here in the harbour. 
 
 Q. What do you catch principally ? — A. Sockeye and dog-fish sometimes. 
 
 Q. And cod-fish ? — A. I only caught two cod-fish in my net. 
 
 Q. And spring salmon ?~A. No ; not here. 
 
 Q. Where do you catch those ? — A. I catch some spring salmon in the Fraser 
 River ; I had a license for there, too. 
 
 Q. Are sockeye numerous here ; do you catch them in any numbers here ? — A. 
 Well, I was not fishing nmch here ; I fished in the Fraser River and afterwards came 
 here. 
 
 Q. And you complain that other persons who did not take licenses had the 
 advantage of you in selling ifish to this market, or to the persons here ? — A. Yes ; I wrote 
 myself to Mr. Mowat to come and stop that, as we were not allowed to sell our fish ; it 
 was a shame to rob the Go\ernment in that way. 
 
 Q. You wrote to have people stopped who were fishing without a license? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you have license last year ? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have had licenses since you were in this country? — A. The first year I 
 fished for Mr. Munn ; he was in Westminster; I went to Mr. Mosvat, but he says, "all 
 the licenses are given away."' "Well," I says, "I must have one, I am still a fisher- 
 man ; I commenced to fish when ten years old." I wrote to Ottawa about it, but it 
 was too late, and he told me to go to Mr. ]Mowat, and next year I had a license. 
 
 Q. What y(!ar was that ? A. The year before last ; I fished for Mr. Ewen. 
 
 Q. What was the (juantity of s(»ckeye you caught last year and the year before ?— 
 A. Last yeai- I caught about 4,000. 
 
 Q. And what did you get for them?— A. Ten cents a piece. 
 
 Q. And what was 'the usual weight ?— A. The sockeye about 4, .') and 6 pounds. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch any as high as 8 or 9 pounds ?— A. Well, I never remember 
 I never weighed them either. 
 
 10c— 25 
 
386 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 (}. Do they make any (lifli'rcnw' in the weight of iisli in liuying them? — A. No, 
 suppose it in '20 pounds, you would get just the same. 
 
 <.^. AVliat part of tlie river did you tish in '? -A. Oh, ail along ''e river, in spring 
 4 miles helow \\'estminster, and when sockeyt; came in, I went to fish at the mouth of 
 the river. 
 
 (.^. On the sand hanks?- -A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. And are the boats very nunierous ?--A. Yes, and T will tell you .something, I 
 swore to tell the truth, I was here '\ years ago, and 1 fished for Mr. Munn, and every one 
 had a license, and they s(^t their nets light on toj) of u.s, there was 200 and 300 fathoms 
 of net. 
 
 Q. And then the loO fathoms was not stuck to? — A. Well, T don't know, the law 
 was not in force for that then. 
 
 Q. Do you think it injurious to have a continuous string of nets running down 
 there ?— A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 (}. Have you any nets there with wings ? — A. Well, T think 150 fathoms net is 
 long enough. 
 
 Q. What meshes deep are they ? —A. 4') at the mouth of the river and 35 and 30. 
 
 Q. Have they ever been troubled with ottkl in the river much ? — A. Well, yes, last 
 year I went down from Mi'. Ewens cannery, and the first time there was an Italian, he 
 put his net about L'O yards from me, I saw nothing at all that time, then when I went 
 down to Irjwei- end of my di'ift 1 hauled up my net and he came behind me and I set 
 my net across and he came again and lie put his net alwut 40 yards from me, and I said 
 that is not the way to fish, you break the (Tovernment's law. 
 
 (.^). Oh yes, you mean to say the nets are too close togethei-, but do you ever get 
 oftal in your net ? — A. Yes, I got 5 or (5 last year, only 5 or heads. 
 
 Q. What efi'ect on the river has the offal? — A. Oh, I don't think it hurts it naich. 
 
 (.^). What effect in creating sickness on the i-iver ? — A. Oh, I was tlmre for years 
 and I drank the water. 
 
 Q. And did it affect you at all ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What about the close season on that river, I mean from 6 o'clock Saturday 
 night to () o'clock Sunday evening, do you think the whole of Sunday .should be kept as 
 against fishing or not? — A. Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Do you fish on Sunday yourself? — A. No, I never do that, even when T might 
 fish, I never worked on Sunday since T connneaced. 
 
 Q. And a man who fishes on Sunday and you don't, has he any advantage over 
 you ? — A. Well, I never see any fishing until o'clock Sunday evening. 
 
 Mr. Wic.MOT. — Very well, thank you sir, that will ..j. 
 
 Dr. Duncan Bel! Irving, M.D., a native of Scotland, a resident and practising 
 physician in Vancouver since 1883, was duly sworn. 41 
 
 By Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. Now, sir, have you anything to present to this Connnission ? — A. Well, I was 
 asked to state what I knew about the typhoid fever on Lulu Island and Sea Island. I 
 have treated a large number of cases since my arrival here, especially in the last year, 
 but there have been always cases there. [ have noticed that out-breaks on the Delta 
 land are the same as we have here in Vancouver, the same causes that produce it here 
 produce it down there, and from observations I have made I have come to the conclu- 
 sion that the water of the Eraser River has not so much to do with it as the surface 
 water they use and the general state of farm buildings, etc. I have frequently noticed 
 the well will be in the front yard and the privy and ces.s-pool not 20 or 30 yards away 
 and as the water ii.ses with the rise and fall of the tide, it really don't nuike much differ- 
 ence whether they take the water out of the well or from the cess-pool. 
 
 Q. Then they are not persons of taste ? (Laughter.) — A. Well. I would not say 
 the water wo'uld not taste Ixetter, but it requires such a small quantity of the poison to 
 cause the fever that it would not make much difference. I have noticed also that the 
 
?— A. No, 
 
 111 spniifj; 
 mouth of 
 
 lu'tliiiif^, I 
 
 evpiy one 
 
 •0 ffitlioins 
 
 w, the Ifiw 
 
 liny down 
 
 )iiis net is 
 
 55 and .30. 
 II, yes, last 
 Italian, he 
 len I went 
 and I set 
 and I said 
 
 u ever get 
 
 ;s it Uiuch. 
 for years 
 
 Saturtlay 
 be kept as 
 
 in I might 
 
 ntage over 
 
 practising 
 
 Veil, I was 
 Island. I 
 last year, 
 the Delta 
 uce it here 
 the conclu- 
 he surface 
 tly noticed 
 nirds away 
 luch ditter- 
 
 d not say 
 i poison to 
 io that the 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COM.VISSION. 
 
 387 
 
 outbreaks of fever seldom correspond with the salmon tishing time ; there has really 
 l>een more sickness there after the tishing is done in October and December, and the last 
 case I treated there was just before Christmas time, and 1 cannot conceive that the 
 oftal has had any effect in bringing about this late case. We had precisely the same ex- 
 perience in Vanccmver here, before the watei- works started it was all over the city, but 
 since then it is confined to the outskirts of the city where the water is confined to wells 
 and cess-pools, and I think it would be better to drink water from the river than from 
 the surface cess-j)ools and wells. I have freijuently told the farmers down there that 
 they should not drink the surface water and they should have tank.s. D is the .same 
 way in all flat lands -if y(/u cannot get wells below the surface it would be bettei- to u.se 
 the rain water ke]>t in tanks. Then tin; numerous numbers of dead .salmon I have seen 
 on the banks uj) the river will do much more harm than the ofVal that is dumped into 
 the fresh water, becau.se the sun and heat has undoubtedly .something to do with the 
 formation of this poison. 
 
 (.,). >lave you anything further to submit ? A. I think that is all. 
 
 C^. Then your general impression is to say the oilal is not injuiious .' A. T would 
 not say it improves the water, but 1 don't think it causes sickness. 
 
 Q. You have been treating patients in Lulu Island and Sea Island, when was the 
 piincipal time? — A. I would think in November and December, but there are ca.ses all 
 the year round. 
 
 Q. Would decomposing vegetable matter l)e as injurious as animal matter ? — \. Oh, 
 yes ; but it takes a long time. 
 
 i}. The fishing goes on in .luly, does it not? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the offal is thrown in; how long would it take to decompose? — A. Oh, 
 but a few days. 
 
 Q. And fishing ends about the end of August ? — A. T don't know about that. 
 
 C^. If this otial hxlges in bays and sloughs would it not decompo.se there ? — A. 
 Undoubtedly it would. 
 
 Q. Would it not throw off deleterious matter? — A. Oh, yes it would. 
 
 Q. And you think that has no effect upon health ? — A. I am not prepared to say it 
 has, l)Ut I think if not a bit of salmon were thrown into the Fraser Iii\er — I think the 
 people would be just as bad because it is almost impo.ssible to get good watei- there. 
 
 Q. How long have you been practising there? A. 1 came to the country in 1883, 
 and have been practising on and ofl" since then. 
 
 Q. And you have had many cases of typhoid fever? — A. Yes; many of them; 
 more last year ; in fact some of them are not o\er yet. 
 
 Q. And you think drinking watei- from the river would l)e better? — A. Yes; I 
 think it would be much better. I think the sewage and mattei' from these cesspools is 
 really the cause of the typhoid fevei-. 
 
 Q. And it is not added to by the offal that is thrown in? — A. I think it would be 
 just as bad if no salmon were thrown in at all. 
 
 Q. I suppose you know the old adage, "that doctors difter and patients die?" — A. 
 Yes, I know. 
 
 Q. And suppose other doctors gave a different opinion? — -A. AVell, it would not 
 alter my opinion. 
 
 Q. And you think taking water from the deeper portion of the river would be 
 better than from shallow waters ? - A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And if this deej) water is impregnated with poisons, would it not be bad? — A. 
 Yes ; I would not care to drink it my.self ; I told these people time and time again that 
 they will have to make tanks and collect rain water from their sheds. 
 
 Q. Some of the doctors say put a little whiskey in it ; do you think the same ? — 
 A. Well, it would take a gi-eat deal of whiskey to put in it. There is nothing i)eculiar 
 about this ; I have seen the same thing in many flat countries ; I liave been in Demarara 
 and Holland, and it is all the .same, aiul there are no salmon there. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Iligr/ins : 
 
 Q. Y^iu sav you would think the water would be better to drink than the surface 
 water ?— A. Y''es ; I would rather drink it but not from sloughs. 
 lOc— 25i 
 
 I* 
 
388 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Then you think oHUl has an effect on the water of the river? — A. Well, I con- 
 sider the (lend tish much worse. 
 
 Q. liut you say fresh offal thrown !n would decompose in a day or tw(»? — A. Yes; 
 but the hmly of water is so preat. 
 
 Q. liut these dead tish up river would not effect it by Hoating up thei-e and not 
 down l)elow f - A. Well, perhaps; what I said was that offal dumped in the water 
 would not be as bad as dead fish decaying and Hoating down in such great numbers. 
 
 Q. But if offal is added to those dead tish, would it not make it worse ? — A. 
 Well, 
 
 C^. Does the use of foul waters produce dysentery ? — A. Oh, there is no doubt of 
 that. 
 
 Q. Then if persons have dysentery in that neighbourhood would you say it was 
 brought about by foul water ? A. Well, I would say it was one of the commonest 
 causes for dysentery ; but I have examined the water from many of the wells on the 
 island and " inii)Ui'e" is no word for it. 
 
 ii. And are we to infer that they prefer drinking that water there, whereas the 
 water along the shore of the river is better? — A. Well, they cannot get any other kind ; 
 they live some little way from the shores, but it is not peculiar to Lulu Island ; it is 
 the same up here. 
 
 Q. But would this impure water permeate through the soils ? — A. Yes ; I have no 
 doubt it wouhl. 
 
 Q. Then the wells would be impregnated from these impurities ?— A. Yes ; there 
 is no doubt it would ; these impurities from the sub-soils filter throuf.'!t. 
 
 Q. You see, Di-. Bell-Irving, that when residents of a community petition against 
 this matter it is tlie duty of the Government to find out all about the causes of these 
 sicknesses. — A. Yes ; but I do not think it is the offal ; if a net was stretchetl across 
 the Fraser River and all the fish caught in it dumped there, I do not think it would be 
 any worse. This is no opinion got up for the occasion ; I have held the.se views for a 
 long time. I believe typhoid fever there is produced from the same cau.ses as in Van- 
 couver and all other parts of the world, viz. : sewage and cess-pools ; they are responsible 
 for nine-tenths of all the typhoid fever the world over. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Thank you, sir. 
 
 WILLIAM CAMPBELL, a native of Scotland, three years in British Columbia, 
 a fi ^Herman, and resident of Vancouver, was duly sworn. 
 
 Witness. — Well, I have applied three years now for a license and could not get 
 one. 
 
 Bi/ Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. Licenses to fish where i — A. On the Fraser River. 
 
 Q. Was any particular cause given why ? — A. Well, they .say everybody that went 
 there and put in an application called themselves a fishei-man and the licenses were all 
 given out and there was none left for me. 
 
 Q. Were you a fisherman in Scotland ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What inducement brought you to this country ? — A. Well, I came to this 
 country with the intention of fishing. 
 
 Q. Did you come to this immediate neighbourhood for that purpose? — A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. And you found you could not fish without a license? — A. No sir. 
 
 Q. And did you fish for other people without a license of your own ? — A. Ye.s, sir ; 
 I was fishing fc»r Mr. Munn. 
 
 Q. And you think it a hardship as a British subject that you cannot get license to 
 fish ?— A. I do. 
 
 Q. Do you know of f)ther persons getting licenses after you applied ? — A. I could 
 not say — I applied soon enough. 
 
V<'1I, T con- 
 
 ?— A. Y»'s; 
 
 re and not 
 1 tli(i water 
 uml)era. 
 worse t — A. 
 
 lo doubt of 
 
 say it was 
 wnnnionest 
 t'lls on the 
 
 rliereas the 
 
 thei- kind ; 
 
 land ; it is 
 
 ; I have no 
 
 Yes ; there 
 
 tion against 
 ses of these 
 ched across 
 it would be 
 views for a 
 i as in Yan- 
 ! responsible 
 
 !i Columbia, 
 uld not get 
 
 y that went 
 ses were all 
 
 me to this 
 A. Yes sir. 
 L. Yes, sir ; 
 st license to 
 -A. I could 
 
 BRITISH OOLCHBIA FISHERY OOMMIStJlON. 
 //// ^fr, Annxtmnt/ : 
 
 889 
 
 Q. On what terniH did you tish? A. T was hin-d by the piece six and a half 
 cents a tish. 
 
 Q. With another man with you ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 i]. Did he get six and a half cents ! -A. No it was six and a half cents for two of 
 us. 
 
 A'// .)//•. W'i/mnf : 
 
 ii. Which included i)oat and net ,'-- A. The boat was our own but not the net. 
 
 Q. So for the use of the boat you two men got six and a half cents for the tish 1 — 
 A. Ye.s, sir. 
 
 ii. Was that the current price for fish on therivci? A. I think some got eight 
 cents. 
 
 (}. Did any get twenty cents? A. As far as I can understand, .some who had 
 licenses of theii' own got twenty cents. 
 
 Q. And you would expect to get more if you had licen.sesof your own ? A. I would 
 expect to get twenty cents. 
 
 Q. Have you made any calculation of the tish you caught? -Yes; last y»'ar was a 
 small year and we caught over- four thousand tish. 
 
 Q. Do you know of more tish being caught than could be well got lid of at the 
 canneries ? A. Well, we skip one oi- two days when we don't fish at all. 
 
 Q. What is the usual size of salmon you catch ?— A. From six to eight pounds. 
 
 (.}. Are you aware of any (juantities o^ tish Vieing thrown away because they cannot 
 be used? A. Not last year. 
 
 Q. Any year? — A. Yes ; I think they wei-e the year before. 
 
 Hy Mr, ArinHtrimy : 
 
 Q. But do you see any one throw them away fi'om ofi' wharves or from the camps ? — 
 A. Well, I don't see that. 
 
 Q. Then you don't know / — A. We can only take what you see your-self. 
 
 />'// Mr. I/ii/i/in.'^ : 
 
 Q. Do you own your net you tish with? — A. No sit; I got it from the canneries 
 ii. Do you own your boat? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. What was the boat woi-th ? A. i?40. 
 Q. Did you build it yourself ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did the cannery charge you anything for lending you the net ? — A. Well, that 
 was accoi'ding to the price I got for the tish. 
 
 % Mr. Wilniot : 
 
 Q. Tiien if you owned the net you would get more for your tish? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What is the price of a net? -A. Well, I think we could get one like we tished 
 with for .SI 00. 
 
 Q. Where did you tish ? — A. At Sea Island. 
 
 Q. And were the boats wide apart? A. Well, I think there were enough boats 
 fishing there last year. 
 
 Q. Was any restriction made to leave a certain portion of the river o))en or was it 
 fished all over ? A. It was tished all ovei- as far as 1 could see. 
 
 ii. What is your idea of the effect of otf'al thrown in the river? — A. Well, 1 don't 
 know that it made any difference to the tish. 
 
 Q. Any to your nets? — A. It does, I helieve — the oil gets on and rots them. 
 
 Q. What effect has it on the human family in drinking water? — A. Well, I think 
 it is not very good, and I hear everybody complain. 
 
 Q. Do you drink it yourself ? -A. Yes, but not if T can get anything else. 
 
 Bjf Mr lliggins : 
 Q. Do you feel any effects from it ? — A. No. 
 
 .' 
 
390 
 
 MARINE AND FISHRRIES. 
 
 "'! 
 
 i \ 
 
 (.}. Did you tiltci' tlu' water or take it from the river? A. Wf drink it from the 
 rivei-. 
 
 i}. Do you ;;et from altovo tho cannery or below ? A. I''i( mi above. 
 
 (.^. Wliy .' A. Ileeause it is lietter water. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. //!(/i/ltiM : 
 
 i}. Do you think decayed fish is worso tlian offal ? A. AVell, T think tish thiown 
 in would rot about the same. 
 
 Q. T mean tlie dead lish that Moat down? — A. Oh, I think they wouKI lie alioiit 
 the same. 
 
 % Mr. W'i/mof : 
 
 Q. The dead Hsh that you see do you think they were thrown in from the canneries 
 or came down from the u]ij)er waters?— A. 1 thought they were tish that fell out of the 
 nets. 
 
 Ill/ Mr, //{(/i/iiiM : 
 
 Q. Don't you think that the dead lish would not hold tof^ether to come down the 
 
 river? We have evidence that live tish hardly h«»ld toj,'etliei' toj^'o uj)? A. No, I think 
 they would hardly hold toj^ether to come down. 
 
 Q. Have you e\'ei' jjfot any offal in yoni' nets ? .\. Yes, (|inte a few. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by a " few"? A. Four or five in an hour. 
 
 Q. What do you do with them ?- A. Oh, we take them ruit. 
 
 Q. And the oidy effect it has is to rot the nets? — A. Yes. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wl/inof : 
 
 Q. Have you seen any offal along the sloughs and banks? — A. No, I think every- 
 thing that goes in is taken light out. 
 
 Q. Any in the sloughs or bays? — A. No, I have never seen any. 
 
 Jiy Mr. IIi(/t/in.i : 
 
 Q. Have you seen the Sand Heads bare? A. Yes. 
 
 C^. Any offal there ? — A. I have ne\ er seen any. 
 
 Q. Have you been out in Oulaclian run? -A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have yon seen them in any large <[uantities under the canneries? — A. No, I 
 cannot say I have seen them. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any coming to this country like yourself with intentions to tish? 
 — ^A. Yes, I know of four others but they have gone back home. 
 
 ii- Because they could not get licenses to tish ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. ff they had got licenses would they remain do you think ? A. Yes, T think 
 they would. 
 
 Q. Then not getting licenses has jirevented .settlers from coming here? — A. Yes, I 
 think it has for tishennen. 
 
 (.}. ^\'hat is the occupatiim of persons who liiivc li(•cn^as in the other part of the 
 year? -A. He could pursue his tishing in some other wry he could go halibut fishing, 
 or seini..g, or some other way. 
 
 ^[r. WiLMOT. Thank you, sir. 
 
 The Commission adjourned at 12.30 P.M., to meet again at 2 P.M., at the same place. 
 
 Vantouvkh, March 12tli, lt<92. 
 
 A/'fi I ti(i(>)i Ses.-iioii. 
 
 The Commission was convened at 2 ^i.ni., in the Court House. 
 
 Present: Mr. 8. Wilmot in the Chair; Mr. Sheriff Armstrong and Hon. D. W. 
 Higgins, with Mr. Secretary Winter. 
 
it tVolll the 
 
 lisli tlnowii 
 
 1 lit' IlllltUt 
 
 e ruiiiu'iK's 
 uiit of the 
 
 down tli«' 
 Nf», r tliiiik 
 
 UlUTrSlI COLUMBIA FIHIIISUY COMMIHSION. 
 
 391 
 
 liiiik «'\ery- 
 
 -A. No, I 
 
 ons to tish? 
 
 es, I think 
 
 -A. Y. s, I 
 
 part of tlu! 
 >ut fishing. 
 
 <ame phice. 
 
 1892. 
 
 on. D. W. 
 
 Mr. NK'Holi .MiliK.N'.a nati\t' of Scotland, niiu' yt'urs in Mritisli CoIunil>ia, a 
 resident, and hott-l kt'c|ifr in \'anrou\ci', was (hdy swoin. 
 
 Ml'. W'li.MoT. What liav(! you to hiy Iteforr the (.'onnnission / 
 
 III/ Mr. //l;/i/iiix ; 
 
 <i>. .\rf yon ent,'a;,'fd in tisiiin;.' ! A. I have a license for tisliin;;, I lia\i' had it for 
 two years. 
 
 i}. To lish where? \. On the Kraser Miser. 
 
 Q. I)id yon ever live cm tiie Kiiiser Kiver ,' — ^A. No. 
 
 (.}. Did yon every follow fishing foi' a livelihood .' \. No, my intention was to 
 folhtw it at the fall and I wanted to i,'et (wo licenses, one for my son and one for ni\ self. 
 I wanted to ;,'o into the curinj,' trade, 
 
 (J. Didyonrson tish? A. No. he did not tish. 
 
 (,}. Who supplied yon with license .' .\. Iliad it from ,\Fr. .Mowat. 
 
 Q. W' 'it did you tell .Mr. Mowat when you went foi- a license? A. Oji, I did not 
 tell him any liin;,'. T wrote the Minister of I'^isheries at Ottawa. 
 
 <i>. Did you ;;et a reply? -A. They told nie they had referred it t » th-ir a^ent at 
 New Westminster. 
 
 <.^. Afterwards you ^fot a lioense ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What did you pay for it? -A. !?•*). 
 
 C^. What di<l you do with it.' .\. I paid two men to tish, and arran^'ed with Mr. 
 Todd to take the fish I would ;^i\e him, and those he would not tak«; I carted them into 
 town and sold them. 
 
 (}. You hired two intMi to (isli for you ? \. Yes, I <^;i\v them a jteicentaye, I i^ave 
 them one-third each, then I had a horse ami cart and carted them into town. 
 
 Q. lint that was two years af;o / — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And y<»u j)aid them one-third each to mana^fe matters, what wouhl' that he? - 
 A. About !?150 each, 1 c^wAd not e.vactly tell, that was two years ai,'o. 
 
 Q. How did you ;;et a license for the .seof)nd year ? -A. T applied for it, I sent my 
 application to Mr. jNFowat and employed two men for the year aiul they made aixiut the 
 same, the eannerymen pay them, that is one-third of the fish each and 1 take the l)alanee 
 for my !iet and license. 
 
 Q. And that ^Mve you how much each year? A. Oh, J had not much last year? 
 J made a little before last year. 
 
 Q. Did you make .S-'WO last year? — A. Oh no, not near that. 
 
 (.^. After all ex|)enses were jtaid ? 
 
 ^^r. AmisTitoN*;.-- You count your boat and net as expenses,' — A. f)h, yes, each 
 year that came out of the third, (th(? one-third.) 
 
 Bi/ Mr. J/ii/f/iiiH : 
 
 Q. You had to .supply everything ? A. Everything but the labour. 
 
 Q. You went on .share.s, each got one-third '.-A. Yes, I had to keep up the plant 
 in full and paid for the license, 
 
 Q. Have you applied for this year ?— A. I have not yet but I exiwd to apply and 
 I intend to apply for two licenses as I wish to go into the trade more fully. 
 
 <.^. You are very modest, I don't think you should get any. — A. 1 think w»; should 
 net a renewal. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. U'l/niof : 
 Q, Have you any idea of the probable number of tish you divided the year before 
 last ?— A. About 8,000. 
 
 Q. And last year ! -A. I think they would average about 1,000 — it was a small 
 year. 
 
 Hi/ Mr. I/v/i/iiii^ : 
 Q. Yet you did better than the year before? — A. It was on iietter prices. 
 Q, Y^)u got 1.") cents last year i — A. No : last year I didn't get so much. I <lon"t 
 remember exactly. 1 got 4,300 tish or something like that. 
 

 392 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 <i>. Tlu> first yciii- you got 1") cents 1 — A. T only avcrafjod iihont D i-cnts tin- fii'st 
 yi'iir. 
 
 Q. A jdt'tty nood investment, don't yon think, to put in S") and take out what you 
 did? -A. Oil, wrW, I put in niiu-e tiian tiiat 8-0 last yeai\ I don't tliiid< liie invest- 
 ment is so \i>i\ yreat. You want a new net every yeai', and really there is not a <j[roat 
 deal in it. 
 
 ij. lUit thei'e is so inui'h in it you aic jioinjf to apply for two? A. l>ut if 1 had 
 two, I «uuld giv'< it more attention than if I liad one. 
 
 ij. Did you sell the yoar before on tiie market or sell to the cannery? A. 1 sold 
 to a cannery the ladu Island C'anninij C/ompany. Of course, it was the lii'st year tliey 
 stai'ted, and they wanteil to i;('t all the tish they could. I^ast y«'ai', Mr. Todd took all. 
 
 //// Mr. Wl/mot : 
 
 Q. ^'ou ai't' not a ])ractical lisherman yourself? A. No: 1 am not a practical 
 fisherman or dealer in tish. • 
 
 <}. Very wt>ll, sii- ; that is all. 
 
 (^iptain (il'iOHOK, a nati\t' chinook Indian, of Harrison l{i\er, was duly sworn, 
 neiiiif unahle to speak much l^'nu^lish, tJie (|uestions put to him and his answers wert* 
 interpreted hy Mr. P. Ticrnan, Indian aj^ent. 
 
 Mr. Tir.HNAX. I may say, hefore he counnences, that fifty indianst-ame to me and 
 wanted to come here l)efore you, hut I t'loughl oiu- would he enouijh to tell you all— he 
 is a fisherman and farmer. 
 
 TiiK JNTKiii'iiKTKH. lie says tjiat liiiiiself and others are not pleased at all. 
 
 Jli/ Mr. Wlhnnf : 
 
 t^). What at .' A. lie says that the whole of the Indians only jict forty licenses, 
 and that they are very imu'li displeased at the numhei' they p-t. 
 
 i}. What is the nmnlxM- of their Irihe? A. Mis trihe is alxml i 'JO all told, hut 
 that does not coNcr all the forty licenses co\cr all the trihes. 
 
 i). Then theii' complaint is because they only ijet forty licenses? A. lie .says the 
 white men come hei'e and i^et licenses and his people wei'c here first. It is th<> same 
 old story. The while men come and jjet licenses first in preference to thoui, and he says 
 they should not. Many tell him the Indians conu' to help the fishermen. lie thinks if 
 the Imlians would noti help the fishermen, therti would be no fishery at all. 
 
 (.). ^\'hat does he mean by lishermen ? A. The canners. 
 
 t^). That if not for the Indians the cannerymen would not ,ij;et on with their work? 
 ■ A. ^'es : that is what he means. He .says ( lod t;a\»' them these waters and the fish 
 and the land, and now it is taken away fr(un tluMU by n«>w comers. 
 
 CJ. You tell him that the law i;i\»'s prefei'ence to them that they can lish withotit 
 liccMises for their own use, but not foi' barter or sale, ;ind that when they come in com- 
 ])etition with white men, they nnist stand in the same position ;is white men, but when 
 fishing for their own use, they can tish without licen.ses. .\. Ihil I may tell you, .Mr. 
 Wihnot, that they are not allowed to fish. I know an instance where their nets were 
 taken and cut to pieces up at ^'ale a poor cripjile of a man and they lia\t' not the 
 jirivileges you sjieak of. , 
 
 //// .!//•. AriiisfroH/ 
 
 (). Well, who <lid that ? .\. Well, I won't t(>ll you who did it I know who did it, 
 and I had I o pay i?.") out of my own pocket to get I wine for that pool' old man. 
 
 (J. l>o I ndians use any other way tlian by di'ifting and spearing .' .\. They don't 
 spear at all they only put. up a few barrels for their own use. 
 
 (i>. When did this oecur, Mr. Titu-naii, if you will not tell us the name? .\. Three 
 years ago it was a?i ollicer of the fisheries department. 
 
 <,>. Then an ollicer of the law ? .\. ^'es. 
 
S tll<' fiisti 
 
 wliiit you 
 li»> iiivt'st- 
 
 if 
 
 IWUl 
 
 A. 1 ,s,.l,| 
 yoiii' tlit'y 
 "tn..k all. 
 
 |)ificti( ill 
 
 ily s\v()i-n. 
 wcis wciv 
 
 tn iii*> and 
 II all — lie 
 
 .• IICCMSt'S, 
 
 1 tnid, lait 
 
 .says tilt' 
 
 tlic same 
 
 lul lie says 
 
 ' Ihinksit" 
 
 cii' work ? 
 
 I (he lish 
 
 II willloMl 
 
 w ill ('(tin- 
 
 bill whin 
 
 yim, .Mr. 
 
 nets w'ci'o 
 
 :• Mot till' 
 
 IkmIiiJ ll, 
 lii'y (lnn't 
 .\. Tlinv 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 393 
 
 (i>. W'.'ll, I tliink the same law jirt'vails Ihm'c and it/ is intended at leasl that th»' 
 .same sliall he tlinni;,'li(tiit tiie wlmle Doiiiinion, llial Indians on their reserves shall lish 
 alany time and in any niaiiner, tuit. they must not tish for sale or i)arter ? A. Well, 
 that is just what I want to know 1 wanted to know if they are allowed in any manner 
 to eateh lish foi- their own us(> ; 1 want your opinion on that point ' 
 
 Q. Ihit if allowed to eateh them for tiieir own use they must he allowed appliances 
 - -tliey eannot eateh them with their hands alone ? A. With nets. 
 
 i-i. Well, if with nets they must i>e for their own use luit if they calfli them and 
 j)ut them in the market they are the same as whittMiien and must come under the same 
 rules. — A. Hut tlu^y want to know if they can eateh these lish and put up a f(>w Itarrels 
 of tish for their own use .' 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mor. Certainly they are allowed to do that that is the intention. 
 
 .Mr. TiKKNAN. Well, 1 know an ollicer was st>nt up last year and they look away 
 an old man's net an old man "0 years of au;e, and he lias never yot it hack yet. 
 
 /ll/ Mr. AniisfriDH/ : 
 
 Q. Well, I think you are hound to answer the tiueslion as to who this was if you 
 know if? A. Well, I would not like to tell it. 
 
 (.}. Well, there are lots of t hi nj^s people do not like to tell, hut when on the stand 
 tliey have got to tell it. 
 
 />'// Mr. U'i/niof : 
 
 il Was it Mr. ({reen? A. No. 
 
 g. Was it Mr. McDonald r A. No. 
 
 tj. It was not Mr. (!rant or .McNeish .' .\. ( )h, no. 
 
 (}. Then these are all the lisliery ollicers tlo you know .Mr .McNahh .' ,\. \'es. 
 
 Mr. McNaiiii. No; I helieve it was hefore my time. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT (to .Mr. McNahli). Those are all the ollicers I hav<' read over? 
 
 Mr. Mt^Nvnit. ^'es, at jtre.sent. 
 
 //// Mr. I/ii/i/iii.-i : 
 
 i). It happened at ^'ale ? A. ^'es. 
 
 Q. Then you haxc to jj;ive the name. Mi'. Ticrnan. 
 
 //// J//-. W'l/nio/ : 
 
 Q. And if this man did this it is most unjust '? .\. Well, it is too I,i|e now he is 
 in New Westminster. 
 
 .Mr. .McNaiui. May I he allowed to say a woi'd ? 
 
 .Mr. Wii.Mor. ^'es. 
 
 .Mr. McNaiih. I'lider the present act noiw of the ollicers under me was guilty of 
 this crime our friend attrihutes to me, liut had that occured last ye.ir his net wouUI 
 lijive heen taken away hecause lli, l.iw demands it, because Indians are allowed to catch 
 lish in any other way except by drift inj^ or spearin>f and these are disallowed an 
 ollicer lodo his <hity wmild he ohliLjed to do this. 
 
 .\. Well, if I am compell-d to say it I am on my oath his name was .lohn Ihiie. 
 
 .Mr. Wll.MOT. Well, under the cireuinslances that .Mr. McNaiib stales, .lohn lliiie 
 wdiild lie perfectly justilied in doii,- ihjs. .Mr. McNahli is it your duty to instruct ollicers 
 under y ...I to seize nets tjiat may Ite used by Indians in the ri\er'? 
 
 Mr. McNaiui. .lust to illustrate this. T may say last year I went out inyself and 
 ihe old man, the (Miief, had a loiii,' net and he look it in and promised not to use it 
 ai^ain. T'v-e w as a ifood deal of correspondence with t he i ndian dcpartmenl , and after 
 a i;ood I,. • ,if eorrcspondenee, I reccixed a letter which the Minister si-nt to the Indian 
 department that an ollieer was oblif^ed to lake these nets, as it wasai;ainst the law. 
 
 .\. I'ut in any case it e.xceediMl the law to t.ike it and cut it. 
 
 //,// Mr. Wilninl : 
 
 i). Well, I don't know if a net is illciially used and you simply take il away, it 
 would lie used a^^aiii the practice is to cut or liurii tlieni all over the hominion they 
 
394 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Sire generally sold at auction and bought in l)y friends — the best way is by destroying 
 theni^ — T merely speak of the general rule ?— -A. Well, but the general rule should not be 
 in force against the Indians. 
 
 <.^. Yes, but the intention is to give the Indians a privilege the whitenien have not 
 — he can fisli at any time on his reserves, but if he goes in to sell or barter, why he must 
 be on the same footing as whitemen ? — A. Oh, we know that — but, Mr. ]N[cNabb what 
 does a whiteman pay for his privilege of fishing for his own use. 
 
 !^2. 
 
 liy Mr. MrXuh : 
 Q. $2? — A. Well, now sir ; what great privilege is that — the whiteman fishes for 
 
 l>U Mr. I/if/(/lns : 
 
 Q. But Indians fish for nothing now what does this man (Capt. George) want ? — 
 A. He wants unlimited licenses for Indians — every Indian to get a license. 
 
 Q. Would they pay $20?— A. Oh, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Do they work for canneries ? — A. Yes, they do mostly — may I ask if i'?20 will 
 be the licen.se fee this year ? 
 
 Mr. AR^KSi'RONci. Well, that is not settled yet. 
 
 n>j Mr. Wifniof . 
 
 Q. Oh, yes ; it is the law now an Indian fishes for his own use now for nothing, 
 except they use spears or drift-nets? — A. But under that law they cannot fish uidess 
 they go in and catch fish with their hands. 
 
 /ii/ Mr. Aniisfroitg : 
 
 Q. The law intends they .shall have the same facilities they had before whitemen 
 came here? A. Well, I will tell you before the whitemen came they had nets and 
 now they cannot have these- why sliould they not be allowed to fish ? 
 
 />'// Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. I nuist admit thei e is an error in some way in the regulations - the law at iiresent 
 says they cannot fish with (.Irift-nets or spears, but cannot they fish with nishagajis or 
 negogs, or whatever they are called ? A. Oh, no ; they do not use them hei'e that is 
 for eastern Indians. 
 
 Bij Mr. AriiiKfrotii/ : 
 
 Q. But don't the canneries pay them well for their work ? — A. Oh, well ; the cannery- 
 men a' ways pay them whatever they pi'omise — they treat them well. 
 
 />'// Mr. ]Vi/i,i»f : 
 
 Q. Well, VdU ask the Indian wh(>tlier it is not a fact that their names are put down 
 fur a license and the canners pay for the license and use it — ask him that ? -A. He 
 says that .some Indians have boats and nets of their own but not all of them and when 
 they have not boats and nets the cannei'ymen Air. Munn and ]Mr. Kwen — and Mi\ 
 Laidlaw gives them 820 and supplies them with l)oat and net and wiien they get their 
 money they pay them back. 
 
 <i. Tlien they virtually get the same pri\ ilege as whitemen and cannei'ymen get 
 theadxant ge of boat and net? — A. Well, really I think tlu' cannervmen do it for 
 charity. 
 
 (,|. Oh, no ; for business — A. Well, they would not give it to whitemen the same. 
 
 (^). Probal)ly tliat is what he means by not doing without the Indians. The can- 
 nerymen put down the Indians' names for licenses and they get the licen.ses all the 
 while! A. But I know to my knowledge the cannerymeii never put down their names 
 without them going and working ft»r it. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 395 
 
 (If'stroyiiii; 
 loulcl not be 
 
 'II have not 
 I'hy he must 
 Niibb what 
 
 m fishes foi- 
 
 ?e) want 1 — 
 if ^20 will 
 
 for nothinif, 
 t fish unless 
 
 •e whitemo'i 
 ad nets and 
 
 w at prt'sent 
 lishajfans oi' 
 ei'e that is 
 
 th 
 
 e cannery - 
 
 re put down 
 It? -A. He 
 u and when 
 
 I -and ^Ir. 
 ey get their 
 
 ler'ymen get 
 len (1(1 it for 
 
 II the same. 
 
 The can- 
 ■nses all the 
 their names 
 
 By Mr. Hi(i</in,-< : 
 
 Q. Just ask him again about the boat and net ? — A. No; he says if they had no 
 boat and net of their own, the canners say coine and we will give you a boat and net 
 ft)r half the profit out of the sockeye ; when he has no dollars he borrows the money 
 from the canners. 
 
 Jh/ Mr. WUiiiot : 
 
 Q. Then the license is taken out in the Indians name, but the canner pays the 
 money and derives all the benefit from the license?— A. No. 
 
 Q. Ask him what he gets for his fish under this license ?- A. ^\'ell, he says if they 
 get 40 sockeye they give half to the cannery and tlie other half is their own. 
 
 Q. And if a hundred 1 — A. The same way ; we give the cannery one-half and sell 
 the other fish at usual prices. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Ariiisfrmt;/ : 
 
 Q. Well, ask him if he thinks the boat and net and license would be any use if it 
 was not foi- the canneries to buy his fish ? 
 
 3Ir. Armstrox(; (who understood Chinook) — But you should not suggest the 
 tanswer to him ; let him put the answer himself ; what does he say 1 — A. He says he 
 could do nothing with them, but dry them and salt them. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Just ask him how many fish he caught in his boat the year before last or last 
 v \,y ! — A. He did'nt catch any ; I can answer for him; he was not fishing; he is a 
 k i . of constable and goes about keeping the regulations between thedifi'erent tribes of 
 Indians and he did not fish at all ; that I know of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Where does he reside '( — A. At Harrison Jiiver. 
 
 By Mr. /Iii/;/ins : 
 
 Q. Is he a representative of all the Indians ? — A. Yes ; he is a Chief. 
 50 wanted to come, but he came for all ; he came on their behalf. 
 
 There were 
 
 By Mr. Annxfron;/ : 
 
 Q. Is there anything else ? — A. He says that some persons told him in New West- 
 minster that you (to Chairman) said the Indians were all lazy, and that they would fish 
 for a few weeks only, and he says that is not correct and he is displeased. 
 
 Q. 
 
 tell hi., 
 does Ui 
 
 i 1 
 
 Jiy Mr. Wilmof : 
 
 *\\'eli, ja.st tell the Indian that the man who told him that also told a falsehood ; 
 
 -A. Yes ; he .savs he 
 
 Mr, 'V'iliiiot has always been an advocate of the Indian. 
 ako S\v. Wilmot to go back to Canada with that idea. 
 
 ' • :• . ; and you can readily understand that parties not liking ^fr. Wiluutt would 
 t*^\ him th. <■ to |>i-ejudice him and the Indians against me.- -A. Yes : he says when the 
 Princes.-. Lci '' > came here she spoke to him and she told him if anything did not go 
 right to speak to her about it and she would lepresent it to the Queen. 
 
 By Mr. HiyginH : 
 
 Q. Well, but what is it he does'nt like ? A. Well, it is this: that Italians and 
 Greeks and other whiteinen come here and get all the licenses on the river. 
 
 Q. Well, you should di.sabuse this inan's mind of that ; they would do nothing with 
 till ish ii" the whitemen were not here? — A. Yes; but they all work. 
 
 J. well, so do we all work. Y'^ou see if even the Indians catch less fish than the 
 a\et ^>' ■•, hiteman he gets some 8200 at least for them, and if it was not for the can- 
 neru' ^hny would get nothing at all? -A. Another grievance is one entirely among the 
 Indians themselves. You see they only get 40 licenses and the .same Fiidians get them 
 all the time and of cour.se there is much discontent among the other Indians. 
 
396 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS. — Yes ; but that is for Mr. Wilmot to look into ; Imt you should dis- 
 abuse the Indians' minds that they should have all the lanfl and all the lish, etc. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — I think it is the rule all over the D(»minion that all Indians on 
 their reserves have the right to rish and get all they want, but as soon as they begin to 
 compete with white men, they must come under the same conditions. 
 
 Mr. Armstkoxg. — Well, we ha\e allowed this to go on, Mr. Tiei-nan, because it is 
 an Indian matter, but I think it has gone on long enough. We should not let you 
 speak at all, Mr. Tiernan. 
 
 Mr. TiEKXAX. — Oh, well, it has, perhaps, gone long enough. I am much (obliged. 
 
 
 jj:, i« 
 
 L. H. BAIN, a native of New Brunswick, in British Columbia since 1879, book- 
 keeper for the "Delta" cannery at Ladner's Landing, where he is a resident, was duly 
 sworn 
 
 £1/ Mr. Jliyi/ins : 
 
 Q. How long have you lived at Ladner's Landing? — A. Seven years. 
 
 Q. Do you know a slough called Cohiluthan Slough 1 — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Can you give the Connnission some idea of the condition of that slough ? — A. 
 Well, I have made a rough sketch of the slough and vicinity. If you will allow me to 
 put it in, I will e.xplain it. 
 
 JJy Mr. Wilmot: 
 
 Q. Does it differ materially from this primed map? — A. Well, it .shows the resi- 
 dences along the river and slough, and will explain it in more detail. 
 
 £1/ Mr. I/ifjijins : 
 
 Q. What is the length of that slough ? — A. Well, from the head down, about two 
 miles. 
 
 Q. (Scanning diagram handed in.) AVhat are these marks dotted along here? — A. 
 Those S(|uares are dwelling houses. Those red crosses are stables. These red lines show 
 open ditches runTiing into the slough. This hei .; is a dam about half-way up the slough 
 — this dam has been there foi- last two years. There is a gate in it, but any offal coming 
 up the slough -very little could go l>y there, it would lodge. Very little would go to 
 the head of the slough. This is the locality where there were .several cases of typhoid 
 fever, and this is the residence of Mr. Arthur, who gave evidence before the Commissitm 
 at New Westminster. 
 
 Q. ^^'hat is the distance between the " Delta " cannery and Air. Arthur's residence ? 
 — A. About two miles or two and a half. 
 
 Jhf Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. Going up the slough, is it longer? A. No ; it is two and a half miles by the 
 slough. I may say in regai'd to offal of last year - previous to last year all offal was 
 thrown in the river- -before last year, T ne\er heard of any complaints from offal being 
 thrown into the river, and the fish from the "Delta" cannery it has Ijeen running an 
 cilery, a id all the offal from the canneiy has been going to this oileiy. 
 
 Jiij Mr. AriiiHtrong : 
 
 Q. Do you put that (the diagram of the slough) in as evidence, Mr. Bain? -A. 
 Well, I merely iiuule it to explain my statements. I would think that any otfal that 
 went up last yeai' was the lesult of an accident. The place whcic we put the otfal into 
 the scow broke down, and the olfal, for one day's work, went into the slough, and a 
 IDortion of that may have gone up the slough, but none went in this year except that. 
 
 Jh/ Mr. miniof : 
 
 Q Where are their canneries from here (showing plan)? .\. Mr. Wad ham's can- 
 nery is about half a mile from there. I was saving that what olfal did go up the slough 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 397 
 
 low me to 
 
 residence ? 
 
 lain s can- 
 
 last year was the result of an accident on account of the staging breaking down. I 
 would also say that where there were several cases of fever, the people don't drink 
 slough water — they drink water from tanks and reservoirs. 
 
 Q. And there they had fever ? — A. Yes ; here at the dam where any oifal coming 
 up the slough would be certtain to lodge, there were no cases of fever at all ; and if the 
 water in the slough is contaminated it is from the drainage from the houses and stables. 
 
 Q. (Scanning diagram) — What does crosses here designate ? — A. Stables. 
 
 Q. Is this plan drawn to a scale at all ? — A. No ; it is simply drawn from memory. 
 
 Q. Do you know whose house that is (pointing to plan) 1 — A. It is Herbert Kirk- 
 land's, about 50 or 60 yards from the edge of the slough. 
 
 Q. And who lives here 1 — A. Mr. Thomas Ljidner's farmhouse. 
 
 Q. Where is Mr. William Ladner's, how far from the slough ? — A. About a quarter 
 of a mile, more or less ; well, yes, about a quarter of a mile. 
 
 Q. Then what you contend is this : that by an accident the Delta cannery allowed 
 a portion of its offal to get into the water and it was carried up into the slough 1 — A. 
 Yes ; now there was a certain part of it went up the slough, not all of it. 
 
 Q. What other canneries are there between the slough and Cano'e Pass 1 — A. Wad- 
 ham's, the Harlock, a cannery near Canoe Pass ; all these were furnishing the oilery with 
 their offal. 
 
 Q. Does the tide run very strong there ? — A. There is a rapid current all down 
 there. 
 
 liy Mr. Ilujf/ins : ' 
 
 Q. Is the water in the slough fast 1 — A. Oh, aVjout two miles an hour. 
 
 Q. What do you think the current of the Fraser is? — A. About six miles an hour. 
 
 Jit/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. And does ofFal lodge anywhere else along the shore of the river, from Canoe 
 Pass up to Ladner's Landing and Crescent Slough ; have you ever seen any offiil lodging 
 along there ?— A. I have never seen any offal along there and with the exception of 
 Wadham's, all the ofiul went to this oilery. 
 
 Q. All got there ? — A. Well, I cannot vouch for all offal from others, but as far as 
 the " Delta" cannery is concerned, it all went except that day I told you of. 
 
 Q. How does it come down from the cannery ? — A. It comes down in a shoot into 
 the scow. 
 
 Q. And you think it all went to the oilery, except this case you mention 1 — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Where are these houses drained into ? — A. Into the slough. 
 
 Q. Do you live near the slough 1 — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Did you ever drink any water from the slough 1 — A. Yes ; I have drunk it last 
 season and every season. 
 
 By Mr. Hif/t/ins : 
 
 Q. Any consequences ?— A. No. 
 
 Q. Have you hetird of any one else, any typhoid fever 1 — A. One case at this hotel. 
 
 Q. Died ?— A. No ; I don't think so. 
 
 Q. When did that occur, last year? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. The only year you didn't throw offjil into the river, how do you explain it? — A. 
 Well, it must have been through other causes. 
 
 Q. Do you think the drainage into the slough is bad for the public health ? — A. 
 Yes ; I should think it is. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the slough bare 1 — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What colour was it 1 — A. Black and muddy. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see persons mixing lime juice with that water ? — A. No ; I don't 
 know. 
 
 Q. How many houses do you think drain into the 
 prepared to say exactly, about 50 or 60. 
 
 Q. Are you a resident of Delta ? — A. Yes. 
 
 slough ? — A. Well, I am not 
 
■ - . m\ 
 
 398 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 -A. The villiis,'e of Ladner's 
 
 tl 
 
 Q. The town is composed of how many iiiliabitants?- 
 Landiiifj;? Oh, about two or three hundred. 
 Q. Th(^y have a council ? A. Yes, 
 
 ]hj Mr. Wilntot : 
 
 Q. .Vre these respectable men that compose this Council? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Quite respectable and representative of the people too ? A. Yes, I suppose so. 
 
 Q. And if these people said that offal caused this typhoid fever would they be in- 
 correct? A. They would be simply undei- a misai)prehension, what 1 wanted to say 
 was that veiy little offal went up !ast year into this slou<jh. 
 
 Q. But you are putting your <ipinion a<^ainst the municipal authoiities on this 
 matter? A. Oh, I would not say that. 
 
 INIr. Hir.ciNs. I think you are rathei' too sweeping, Mr. Chairman, we have had 
 medical authorities here. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.- liut to refer to the nmnicipal authorities, I only mean as to 
 whether this man'f^ opinion should over-turn the whole of the opinions of the municipal 
 authorities 1 
 
 Mr. Hi(i«;iNs. — I think we must take a point, Mr. Chairman, when we go down 
 there to stop off and see this slough. 
 
 ]Mr. WiLMOT. But they are not catching fish there now. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i<iiNs.- -No, they are catching sewage now, an eminent medical man has 
 been before us and lie says the niicrobes were in this water and he left the place because 
 lie could not get water to drink. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;(iixs. -It has been sworn before this Commission that large numbers of 
 .sockeye, lots of salmon have been thrown into the river, how long have you been at the 
 Delta Cannery ? A. Seven years. 
 
 (.J. Have you seen any thrown away? — X. No, not in large quantities, T have seen 
 some. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any? — A. Yes, I have seen a few thrown off the wharf. 
 
 Bjl Mr. WUmot : 
 
 Q. Do you keep count of the tish that come into the Delta cannery? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many last year ? — A. About 1 50,000. 
 
 Q. That was a short year? — A. Yes, sii-. 
 
 Q. As many again came in the year before? A. In 1890? No, I think not, not 
 twice as many. To tind out how many salmon are caught we simply take eleven times 
 the number of cases padked. 
 
 Q. Well, how many cases were packed in 1890? — A. Between 15,000 and 16,000 
 J ''u( k, I am speaking entirely from memory and I may be a little off. 
 
 Q. What is the usual size of those fish? — A. In the good years they run smaller 
 than in " off" years. In a good year, say 7 pounds, and in an "off" year probably a 
 little more, 7i to 8 pounds. 
 
 Q. How many cans are made fi'om a tish as a rule ? — A. Between 4 and 5. 
 
 Q. And what is done with the balance? — -A.. It was used for jnaking oil last year. 
 
 Q. Is it not thrown away as offal ? — A. It is thrown away as offal. 
 
 Q. How much do these cans hold? — A. Generally a pound. 
 
 Q. Is it possible to put :22 or 24 ounces in a can ? — A. No, that is impossible. 
 
 Jiij Mr. 1/ 1;/ (J ins : 
 Q. Can you put 20 ounces in ? — A. No, 18 may be put in. 
 Jhj Mr. ]\'i/iiiof : 
 
 Q. Is it usual to put 18 in? — A. No, they calculate to give good weight, in having 
 a little moi-e than the weight. 
 
 Q. Have you .seen the boats fishing ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do they keep one-third of the river clear wlien fishing? — A. No, I would not 
 say they do. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 399 
 
 Q. You have Ijeeii a close observer in other matters, I thought you would take 
 observation of that too?- A. I don't know as they left any part of tiie river vacant, 
 they tish all over; immediately in front of Ladner's Landing they don't tish, because 
 there is a bar there, and they don't fish on it. 
 
 liy Mr. Hit/!/ in K : 
 
 Q. How many members does the municipal council of Delta consist of ?- A. Five 
 and a Keeve. 
 
 Q. 8ix then are there any legal men in that body? A. No, I don't know of any. 
 
 Q. Now if six or sixty non-professional men expressed an opinion upon a scientific 
 subject of which they know nothing, and two men whose life-long business has been to 
 study this question upon which they speak, expressed a contrary opinion, whose opinion 
 would you be likely to accept? —A. I would be likely to accept the opinion of the two. 
 
 Mr. HnifJiNS. — So would I. 
 
 n>/ Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Have you never heard that professional men often give direct evidence opposite 
 to what others give ?.— A. Professional men? Oli, yes. 
 
 Mr. HiGolN's. — The question is whether non-scientitic evidence is to be taken or 
 scientific evidence, it is not to be thought likely that any member of this Connnission 
 sliould take evidence from persons who know nothing about the matter in preference to 
 men who have made a study of causes of diseases. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT (emphatically). I state ecpially that every scientific man who has been 
 brought here states that the water gets contaminated by the offal going into it. 
 
 Mr. Armstkonc;. — Order, gentlemen. 
 
 Mr. Hir.r.iNs. Never mind, Mr. Armstrong, you have had a week of it, I ha\e not 
 been here. 
 
 By Mr. I/it/i/iiis : 
 
 Q. Well, about the sock eye and lots of fish thrown away, did you evei' see any 
 " quinnat " thrown away ? — A. No. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. And you are bookkeeper at the Delta cannery ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — That is all, sir; that is all I wanted to ask. 
 
 
 
 B. J. 8HORT, a native of New Brunswick, four years in British Columbia, 
 manager of the Lulu Island Canning Company, was duly sworn. 
 
 /iy Mr. \n/niot : 
 
 ii. Well sir, what have you got to say ?— A. In regard to this fish offal, we had a 
 case of typhoid fever at Steveston, and we used tt> set> all cases of fever before the 
 cannery started in the spring — the ofi'al did not appear to have any injurious effect. 
 
 Q. Anything else, sir? — A. I never see any ofi'al around the shores of the river in 
 our part. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that it is all shoved out of the canneries into the water ? — A. Yes ; 
 I think so, certainly the offal goes into the water. 
 
 Q. Is it correct that fish will run from six to eight i)Ounds ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is it also correct you get about four and a half cans from it?- A. Yes ; about 
 twelve fish to the case, the case weigh about twenty-two or twenty-one ounces, can and 
 all. 
 
 By Mr. IIig;/i)is ; 
 
 Q. What would be the weight of the cans alone ? Three or four ounces ? — A. 
 Y''es : I suppose it will. 
 
 Q. Do they put more than a pound in a can?— -A. Not much more. 
 
400 
 
 MARINE AND FISHEETES. 
 
 Jiij Jfr. Wiliiwt : 
 
 Q. And the Lulu cannery is how far away from Ladner's Landing ? -A. I think 
 it is about six or eight miles, on the opposite side down the liver — I think they call it 
 six miles. 
 
 Q. You are a paid officer- manager ?- A. No, a member of the lirm. 
 
 Q. Do you receive any emolument for being manager ? A. No. 
 
 Q. All the emolument you get is a share of the profits? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are you in and about the cannery during the season ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you never saw any offal on the edges of the river ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you look specially for it ? — A. No, I never look specially for it — oh, of course 
 there may be some offal lying about, but I never noticed it. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. HiyqiuK : 
 
 Q. Are there many scavenger fish around your cannery 1 — A. Yes, they are very 
 thick. 
 
 Q. And when you throw it over — they go at it at once ?— A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Arinstrong : 
 
 Q. How deep is the water where offal is cast in ? —A. We have a shoot and it goes 
 in at about six or eight fathoms. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Is your building built on piles ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And about •lO to y)0 feet deep are they ? — A. Yes, our piles are 50 to 60 feet. 
 
 By Jfr. AriiiKtrony : 
 
 Q. Was there any sickness there before your cannery came 1 — A. I don't know — 
 it is possible. 
 
 By Mr Wiliuof : 
 
 Q. How many boats had you ? — A. We had twenty licenses. 
 
 Q. How many others did you employ besides the twenty ? — A. Six or seven. 
 
 Q. And how many cases did you put up in '90 ? — A. We were a new cannery — 
 about 10,000. 
 
 Q. And were those fish caught down on the sand heads ? — A. Yes, down in the 
 channel. 
 
 Q. Was fishing promiscuously done or was one-third of the channel kept open ? — 
 A. Oh, I think they fished promiscuously, but I suppose they do keep the channel open. 
 I don't pay particular attention to that. 
 
 By Mr. Higyinf) : 
 
 Q. Is the health of your vicinity good ? — A. Yes, during the summer I do not live 
 there— I live in Vancouver. 
 
 liy Mr. Wilinot : 
 
 Q. When is it not healthy? — A. Well, in the spring — that was when the cases of 
 sickness were there. 
 
 Q. Any sickness in the fall ? — A. I don't know whether there was or not — the 
 cases I speak of were in the spring before we can at all- — they were turning up the soil 
 in laying out the town site. 
 
 Q. The fever was ploughed out from the ground? — A. Well, I suppose so. 
 
 By Mr. Iligr/ins : 
 Q. What is your favourite beverage down at the cannery, iVIr. Short ? — A. Tea or 
 
 water. 
 
 Q. Do your hands drink the water there ? — A. Yes, they have nothing else. 
 Q. Do they dilute it ? — A. Well, I don't know — I suppose some do. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY 0OMMIS°ION. 
 
 401 
 
 A. I think 
 they call it 
 
 Q. Do they boil it? — A. Well, not there — they do in some places. 
 Mr. Hh!<!I\s.- Some water is not good at all unless lx)ile(l. 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very good ; that will do. 
 
 oh, of course 
 
 hey are very 
 
 t and it goes 
 
 to 60 feet, 
 lon't know- 
 
 seven. 
 
 cannery — 
 
 down in the 
 
 ept open ? — 
 annel open. 
 
 do not live 
 
 the cases of 
 
 or not — the 
 g up the soil 
 
 so. 
 
 -A. Tea or 
 else. 
 
 ROBERT MITCHELL, a native of Scotland, three years in British Columbia, a 
 fisherman, and resident of Vancouver, was duly sworn. 
 
 % J/r. Wilmot : 
 
 Q. Now what do you want to say ? — A. Well, I would like to get a license granted. 
 I fished for Mr. Munn the year before hist at Sea Islands Cannery — I wau only paid G^ 
 cents, and I understand that some of those who had licenses was paid 20 cents. 
 
 Q. Did you apply for licences ? —A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And why were you not given n license 1 — A. I don't know — I did not go to see, 
 but some of the boys in the same house went. I went out to the sealing that year. 
 Mr. Munn furnished me with a boat and net. 
 
 Q. Did liny of your neighbours fish for Mr. Munn that had licenses of their own ? — 
 A. No, sir : not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Did ytm get same price as the rest 1 — A. Oh, yes ; I understand I got the same 
 price as the others who had not licenses. 
 
 Q. Then what would you gain if you had a license ?-,— A. Well, I would get 20 cents 
 if I had a license of my own ; I think I would ; 15 or 20. 
 
 Q. Not having a license you got but 6J ? — A. 6A. 
 
 Q. Then your neighbour in the boat got 6^ ? — A. No ; we only got half of that, 
 3| cents each. 
 
 Q. And others got 20 ?— A. Yes 
 us 6.1 cents between the two of us. 
 
 Mr. Munn furnished the boat and net and gave 
 
 By Mr. Iliggins : 
 
 Q. And if you had furnished boat and net, what would you have got ? — A. I think 
 I would have got 20 cents if I had a license. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Munn furnished you with plant and gave you 6^ cents?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. When did you fish for Mr. Munn ? — A. The year before last. 
 
 Q. How many fish did you catch 1 — A. Near 6,000, I think. 
 
 Q. Would that be the average of boats ? — A. Yes ; for Mr. Munn's cannery, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. Can you give an opinion as to effects of ofFal in the water ? — ^A. Well, I don't 
 enjoy the water very good, but it don't do my health any harm. Of course I would 
 prefer the water on the up side of the cannery to that from the lower side. 
 
 Q. AV'hy one side more than the other? — A. Because the ofFal from the cannery 
 was effecting the water a little on the down side. 
 
 Q. Then your principal complaint is you would like a license? — A. Yes; and I 
 think the Sunday should be closetl. 
 
 Q. Oh, you think all Sunday sliould be kept as holiday ? 
 
 By Mr. Higgins : 
 
 Q. Could you not keep it yourself and let the canneries break the Sabbath ? — A. 
 Well, I dtm't know as I could ; being hired by the cannery and the cannery furnishing 
 me with boat and nets. Of course I never did stay ashore. I always went out, but I 
 di'l not like it. I don't know if Mr. Munn would care about it. If I had a license of 
 my own I would not go out. I think the cannery would take the fish fron? me on 
 Monday. 
 
 By Mr. Wilmot : '' 
 
 Q. Are there others like you who object to fish on Sunday ? — A. Well, there are 
 four that I know ; they don't want to fish on Sunday. 
 
 Q. Then you say cannerymen rather hold out as a necessity that people they hire 
 shall commence working at 6 o'clock ?— A. No ; I don't say that. I don't say tlie 
 
 10c- 
 
 -'•7 ; 
 
 t ■; ■: 
 
r i 
 
 402 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 canneryineii compfil iiicii to j^n to work on Sunduy ut fi oVlock. f never staid (Lshoic, 
 1)Ut suppose I told tluMu T would not i;o, they would prolxihly tell me to ^o. I think if 
 I st.'iid iislioi'e on Sunday nij,'lit and the eainieryinen ask»'d me to /^o, I dare say they 
 Avould tell me to ^'o, f never asked Mr. Munii. 
 
 <^. And you thirds the law allowinj,' tishinu on Sunday coriupts the morals of some 
 men ? -A. Yes; T think so. \ never like to yo out myself, f think the elose season 
 niiyht be made from (i tj'clock Saturday niyht to 12 oclock Sunday. 
 
 By Mr. Annxtnnnj : 
 
 Q. Hut what would cannerymen d(» witii tish caught on Saturday? -A. Well, 1 
 don't k!iow. 
 
 /if/ Mr. Wihnnt : 
 Q. It was chan^'ed to suit them, you know. A. Well, T don't think it is changed 
 
 Q. Do you think every British .subject should have a licen.se? — A. T think every 
 one who wants a license should get a license. 
 
 C^. 1)(( you tliiidv it cori-ect to sell lit-ense.s, so one man gets a license and sells it to 
 you for a certain price, is that right ? — A. No, sir ; I do not think any man should get 
 a license and sell it to another man ; T don't think it is right. 
 
 Q. Did you ever lisli in Scotland in the rivers there? — A. No, sir; I fished in 
 Scotland in the deep-.sea fishing. 
 
 Q. Were any inducements held out to you to come here to fish ? A. Yes; my 
 brother was here, and he said it was a good jilace for fishing, ami I came here. 
 
 Does your brothei- get a licen.se ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. ArtiistroiKj : 
 
 Q. Ts he a lislu-rman ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think that has a tendency to prevent people from cominy; here? A. T do, 
 because .sunnner time is the proj)er time for fishing, and if you cannot get a license then, 
 I don't see how you are going to do it. 
 
 Q. Then you think you should get a license, and that the close season should be 
 extended to the whole Sunday ? -A. Y'^es, sir. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Very well ; that will do. 
 
 THOMAS CAMPBELL, a native of Scotland, three years in British Columbia, a 
 fisherman, and resident of Vancouver, was duly sworn. 
 
 By Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. What have you got to state ? .\. T have got to state that T put in the last 
 two years f'oi' licenses and T could not get one. 
 
 Q. Was any cause assigneil for this .' A. Well, I asked last year if any more were 
 to be given out and he said thei-e were five or six,- but some others applied for them, 
 and I asked him if they were fishermen and he said yes ; they went to people calling 
 themselves Hshermen. 
 
 Q. Did you iish last year? — A. I fished on Sea Island cannery for Mr. Munn. 
 
 Q. How did you fish ; on what term^? A. Well, he gave me a boat and net and 
 so much per fish. 
 
 Q. How n)uch ? — A. Six and a half cents. 
 
 Q. Tha*^ is between you and your man? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What was current piice to ])eople fishing with licenses ? — A. Of their own 1 
 
 Mr. Wn.MOT. Ye.s. — A. Twenty cents. 
 
 Q. Would you have got 20 cents if you had licen.ses of your own? — A. Y'^es ; I 
 think I would. 
 
 Q. How many boats fished for that cannery? -A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. How many fish did you catch in your boat last year? — A. About 4,000. 
 
BIUTISU COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 Q. Was it a sliort yt-ar / A. Tlu'v nilletl it a juku' year. 
 Q. And yt(t you <fut 4,000 saiuiDii .'- A. Yos. 
 
 Jiij Mr. Arnisfrtnii/ : 
 
 Q. Have you aiiythiuj,' mitrc ?- -A. No. 
 Mr. AinisTUuNd. - Tliaiik v<>u ; tliat will do. 
 
 403 
 
 it is cliauL'ed 
 
 .TOFrN HllOWX, a native of Po. i.Hf,'al, in IJritish Coluinlua since IHoS, a resident 
 oi Vancouver, a lisliernian and lioatniaker, <lescril)iiij,' liimself as a liritisli subject since 
 the time of tiie first elections bein;,' held in iJritish Cohunhia, was then duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wl/mof : 
 
 Q. Well, what is your complaint? — A. I want a lishing licen.se. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had tine ? A. I had one four years af,'o and have made applica- 
 tion evei-y year since hut j,'ot no answer. 
 
 Q. Then your complaint wholly now is that you want a license ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Where do you want to fish .'—A. On the Fra.ser River. 
 
 Q. Have other persons >s,^tt licenses since you applied, ai\y of your neighbours / — A. 
 No, not my neiyhlwurs, but many applied 4 yeai-s ago and have got licenses, but 1 liave 
 not. 
 
 Q. Have you fished for canneries since'/ — A. No, I am getting too old to fish 
 myself, but the canners get licenses and they don't fish them either. 
 
 Q. And you want a license as well as them ? -A. Well, I could pull a boat any- 
 way. 
 
 Q. Then your principal object is to get a license if you can ? — A. Y'^es sir, that is 
 what T want. 
 
 Mr. AHMSTHo\(i. -That will do; thank you. • 
 
 ison should be 
 
 (h Columbia, a 
 
 ■lit in the last 
 
 JOSEPH GOUSTAF, a native of Portugal, in IJritish Columbia, since 1874 and a 
 Biiti.sh subject by naturalizati(jn since 1892, a resident of Vancouver, and a fisherman, 
 was duly sworn. 
 
 Jii/ Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. What do you want? — A. AVell, I have been fishing j--ince I came in the country 
 the biggest part of the time and I have made application for licenses for the last four 
 years but could not get one. 
 
 Q. And is that the principal matter yoa wish to bring before this Commission ? — 
 A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. Well sir, I don't know as we can do anything more for you than to record your 
 name and that you want a license ; would one be enough ? — A. Yes, one will do very 
 well. 
 
 Q. And you have been fishing on the ri^ er ? -A. Yes, I have been tishing for ^Ir. 
 Ewen and foi; Mr. Munn. 
 
 Bji Mr. Armstrom/ : 
 
 Q. Where do you fish in winter? — A. Well one winter I was sick, las; v-^'' iter I 
 fished right liere in Vancouver. 
 
 By Mr. Wilntot ; 
 Q. What kind of fish do you catch ?— A. Small fish of all kinds, smelts, herrings, 
 
 etc. 
 
 Q. Y'"ou fish with a seine ? — A. Y'^es. 
 
 Q. What length of seine? A. About 50 fathoms, something like that. 
 
 Q. What meshes in the bag ? A. An inch extension and 2 j in the " wings." 
 
 Q. What length of bag ? — A. 3^^ fathoms. 
 
 10c— 26^ 
 
T^ 
 
 B^^flW 
 
 404 
 
 MARINK AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Q. And you ciitcli a j^roat mniilu'r of small fish, don't you / -A. There u.sod to he 
 a great in.iP.y, hut now there are not no many, all we eateh is small enough for the market. 
 
 Q. Do you ever got smaller than small enough for the market f- A. A few, hut 
 very i'hw. 
 
 Bi/ Mr, Animtronif : 
 
 Q. And when you catch those very small fish you pull your seine ashore and pull 
 all those small tish in dcm't you '/ — A. Well, sometimes the smaller ones go through, we 
 cannot get them. 
 
 Q. Do they go thntugh half inch naesh? A. Oh yes, smelt will go through some- 
 times, smelt are very small fish. 
 
 Q. All alfmg this coast is the same, you peoplt*, Portuguese, Italians, etc., fishing 
 here all use the same small net you had in your own country, and you catch the same 
 small tish of all kinds, young salmon and all kinds. A. Oh, some salmon come here but 
 they never breed here, we never get young salmon. 
 
 Q. Well, hut the point is that you catch a great many snudl fish which if let alone 
 would Itecome in a year or two fit for the market ? — A. Well, we never can get the 
 small ones anyway, they go througli, we have to use this snuiU mesh to catch the smelt, 
 we cannot catch them any other way. 
 
 Q. You drag the net ashore with all the fish in it — do you pick out the big fish for 
 market ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you do with the small ones? — ^A. Well, the little ones we let go if they 
 are no use — .sometimes we just throw the fish out and let them go. 
 
 Q. Do you think numy live to gee cmt ?— A. Oh, yes ; many of tlieni. 
 
 Q. Well, the point is that tliese young fish are thrown on shore when you draw the 
 seine and then they are left there to rot ? — A. Well, let them prove it — hut it was the 
 oil factory ruined the fishery — not us. 
 
 Q. How did they do it? — A. Well, they threw in lots of refuse from the factory 
 and it diove the fish away. 
 
 Q. What ertect has it to throw refu.se like this in? — A. Well, it spoils the fishing 
 grounds and drives the fish away — he has quit that business now. 
 
 Mr. HiotiiNS. — He is dead. 
 
 By Mr. WUmot : v 
 
 Q. And you think throwing in this ofial destroys the fish ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Ak.mstuonc!.— Very well, that will do. After an interval of a few minutes and 
 no witnesses comiii^c forward 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I judge the publicity of this meeting has been very general, because 
 there has been a large audience all day and it appears there are none others to come 
 forward. 
 
 Mr. Armstroxo. T move we adjourn to New Westminster, to Monday, at 8 a.m., 
 or such time as the steamer will be ready to go down the river, so we may inspect the 
 location of the canneries, etc. 
 
 Mr. Hkjuins. Yes, all right. » 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — ^Very well — Monday morning at 8 a.m., but before adjourning, I 
 wish to present a communication to t^he Board, which I have received from the Van- 
 couver Hoard of Trade, which I will read, and then hand to our Secretary for incorpora- 
 tion in tlie Minutes of Proceedings. 
 
he big fish tor 
 B let go if they 
 
 iv minutes and 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA PISIIERT COMMISSION. 
 
 VANCOUVKK no A in) OF TI{AI)E. 
 
 406 
 
 (ieoi-g(' ]<]. ncitt'iuix, President ; VV. V. Siilsliury, Vice-PreHident ; A. H. B. Muc- 
 gowiin, SfiTetiiry. 
 
 To the J 
 
 Vantouvkk, n.C, Marcli llth, \f<'.)-2. 
 'H of fhi' liojinl Fixlii'rii's Coiaiuinxion, I'tnifonrfr, Ji.i'. 
 
 " (fKNTi.KMiON, — At a meeting of tlie eomicil of tliis Doiird held lust evening, the 
 following resolution was unanimously adopted, viz. : 
 
 " W/wri'iis the salmon fisheries, are of great im[)ortaneo to the eity and to the 
 provinee in geiiei-aj, and 
 
 •' ]l'iii;frii.'< ill tlie markets of the world tliere is very keen competition with the 
 Alaska and Columbia lliver tishei-ies in this l>usiness ; and 
 
 '• IV/nu'i'iis the eotiseniieuee of any hiiidranet! to the successful prosecution of these 
 fislieries would result disastrously to the c(»untry. 
 
 "We, the council of tlu* Vancouver Hoard (»f Trade, beg resp(!ctfully to submit t<i 
 the mendiers of the Royal Fisheries Connnission, the following recommendations, viz. : — 
 
 " Lii'tiusiis. 
 
 " 1. Tluvt In view of the large amount of capital invested in the canning business 
 and of th(( extiuisive prej)arations that have to be undertaken for the fishing season so 
 long in advance of the actual comirieiu-ement of operations, it is essential for the canners 
 to be al)le to rely on having a jertaiti fixed nund)er of boats with which to prosecute 
 their industry, and that this number should not be less than '..'5, which nund)er should 
 not bo subject to change froni year to year ; also that for the northern canneries the 
 nund)er of license.s held by those canneiies last year be not subject to reduction. 
 
 " Q(f}if 
 
 " 2. That, whereas, we believe the disposal of the salmon otl;il in the Fraser River in 
 fleep water, is neither injurious to the health of the jjcople nor to fish life, the canners 
 not required to do more than deposit it in deej) water, as hampering regulations in 
 is respect nnght act mf»st prejudicially to the iiidusti-y. 
 
 " C/our fiiiii'. 
 
 " .'{. That in view of the extremely short fishing season, the regulations as to weekly 
 close time on Fraser River, remain as before, viz., fi'om 6 a.m., on Satui'day, to G p.m., on 
 Sunday, by which arrangement practically no work is done on the Sabbath. 
 
 " Hatchery. 
 
 " 4. That the hatdiery is worthy of every support, and that it is desirable that 
 inspectors be ajjpointed to further investigate and report on the habits of salmon, 
 especially in up country waters, and by marking fish to obtain closer information as to 
 their movements. 
 
 "Commeniling these observations respectfully for your consideration, 
 "I have the honour to remain, gtmtlemen, ycur obedient servant, 
 
 (Sgd.) "A. H. B. MACGOWAN, 
 
 [Seal.] Secretary." 
 
 Mr. PORT, of New Westminster, who had previously given evidence upon two 
 occasions, then entered into an infonnal conversation with the Comnnssioners, the sub- 
 stance of his remarks and complaints being as follows : — 
 
 That the ditiiculty in connection with the interim licenses was that the number to 
 be granted was too small. 
 
 Mr. McNabb. — I have instructions that the granted number of licenses were not to 
 be exceeded. 
 
■vf f 
 
 406 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Bif Mr. Wihnot : 
 
 Q. How long is it since that order came ? — A. About a fortnight ago. 
 
 Q. Oh, yes ; that i;;, the old (»rder will stand good until the new decision is reached. 
 Only for the present the interim licenses will go on. 
 
 Mr. PoKT. — But the final reconunendation of the Connnission should not interfere 
 with work that is going on now. 
 
 ]\[r. McNahh. Mr. Port is interested in getting licenses for catching fish that arc, 
 running now — these are the fish he wants. He wants to get ten licenses, find I 
 told him I could not see my way to i-ecommend tiiat he should get ten, because J 
 received word that they were all to be placed on a similar footing. 
 
 Mr. Port. — Well, I may say I do not think the interim licenses should effect tlu^ 
 number afterwai-ds given — I have piepared ice and other things. , 
 
 Jij/ Mr. J/ii/(/inx : 
 
 Q. You were on the stand at New Westminster, INIr. Port? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. And it was stated that you sold fish to the canners ?— A. That is not correctly 
 stated, sir. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — The witness must have forgotten that he was on oath. 
 
 B// Mr. Ilhjyifs : 
 
 Q. Well, I think we had it from others than fishermen ? — A. Well, I have frequently 
 sold surplus fish to the canneries. 
 
 Q. Did you freeze any fish last year? — A. Well, we don't intend to freeze any this 
 year. ^ 
 
 Q. What do you do with your licenses? — A. Well, we ship away to other places. 
 You must remember we are handling large; (juantities of fish. I would like to see every 
 deserving man get a license. 
 
 Q. Well, the opinion of the Commission was, 1 tliink, that y(Hi were at an advan- 
 tage over otiier parties? —A. Now, on. the basis of 1SS8, I can use the catch f)f 150 boats. 
 
 Q. 1 think the aim of the Connnission should be that although you should not be 
 at the mercy of indivifhial fishermen, they should be placed so tiiey are not at your 
 mercy. I must say the way the license system has been conducted is simply scandalous. — 
 A. Well, I had to have 10 licenses, and during the other part of tlie season I had to 
 take .salmon wherever 1 could get it. We export our fish nine-tenths of the time, but 
 when we have a surplus of fish we sell them to the canneries. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT explained that the complaint made against ^Ir. Port was that during 
 the sockeye run he sold Ids fish to the caiuieries whilst obtaining licenses as a freezer; 
 also that he thought persons going into the freezing business should have a certain num- 
 ber of licenses and that his belief was, that in time the freezers would take the place of 
 the canneries. 
 
 Mr. Port. — I admit the situation as regards the licen.ses, and selling fi.sh looks un- 
 favourable for the freezers. 
 
 A party in the audience here stated that the fresli fish dealers in Vancouver had 
 been looking to Mr. Port and Mr. Vienna for their supplies of fish, and if licenses were 
 denied them (Port and Vienna) they woukl have to be given in some other way. 
 
 The Chairmav declaimed the Connnission adjourned at 4.'M) p.m., to meet again in 
 New Westminster at 8 a.m., on Monday, 1-lth March, for the purpose of proceeding down 
 the Fraser River, by .steamer, to inspect the location of the canneries, Cohiluthan Slough, 
 etc. 
 
 New Westminster, ]5.C., Uth March, 1892. 
 
 The Commission met on boai'd the steamer " Robert Dunsnunr " at 8 a.m. 
 
 Present : S. Wihnot, Esij., Chairman ; Hon. D. ^V. Higgins, Mr. Sheriff Armstrong, 
 Ml'. Charles F. Winter, Secretai'y. 
 
 At 9.10 a.m., the steamer got under weigh and proceeded down river by the south 
 or main channel, the morning was bright and sunshiny, but the air was extremely cold 
 and penetrating with a slight bi'eez(! from the sea. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHEaT COMMISSION. 
 
 407 
 
 ould eli'ect tlie 
 
 ; fish looks iiii- 
 
 Passing the vjuioiis cannerif^s the downward portion of tlie trip extctuled to tlie 
 lighthouse out in the mouth of the river, whei-e a turn was made and the home trip 
 commenced. At Ladner's Landing a stop was made for dinner and for the purj)ose of 
 the Commissioners inspecting Cohiluthan .Slough. The Connnissionei's inspected the 
 8Iough at its moutii at the " Delta " cannery about l.'M p.m. Slough here about :iO 
 yards wide at high water and but a mere streak when tide is out. Water at time of 
 visit was of tlu! colour of {Hwter, and when dipped up in a glass tumbler looked like cold 
 tea. The Slough looks like a big ditch with high, soft, nniddy banks, and the w.iter 
 appeared stationary, it being near tlood tide. To the taste the water did not appeal- to 
 be so very disagreeable, though the eye was repelled by its appearance and the })lace 
 from which it came ; a flavour of decaying wood and vegetable matter was percei)tible. 
 The soil about tlie banks had a peaty apjiearance and water tri<kling into the slough was 
 discoloured. The Commissioners took \eliicles at Ladner's Ijanding and })roceede(l along 
 fhe slough to the top dam about :1 miles from the " Delta" cannery- -about i| of a mile 
 up the main dam was passed, and where much coni|ilaint had been made of ofl'al loilging, 
 etc., aiul of it being backed u[) by the tide to this [)oint. The banks here were also soft 
 mud, surmounted by a fringe of small brush and wild grass. The Commissioners were 
 acconi[>aiiied l)y Messrs. Thomas ami W. II. Ladner, and ]\lr. D. J. Munn, who kindly 
 pointed out the var'ious points of int(;rcst and explained the (luestion of ofl'al in the 
 slough from their dili'ei'ent points of view. At the head of the slough the Jtarty met 
 Air. Arthur and Mr. E. S. Brown, farmers of the neighbourhood, and the former tif 
 whom had appeared before the Commission and gi\"ing evidence at Westminster. These 
 gentlemen explained the ileposit of ofl'al at the head of the slough and the ])ernicious 
 effects such had upon the surroundings and with much warmth reiterated their asser- 
 tions that it was irjost injurious to the health of the community ami particularly harm- 
 ful to cattle in that the slough was the only j)lace from whii-h they coulil ol)tain water 
 for the stock. Jiotli Messrs. Arthur and lirown stateil that in summer the stenrli of 
 decaying ofFal floated u|) by the tide to the head of tin; slough and then left on the 
 gi'ass and bushes as the water retired, was something awful and that tish heads, guts, 
 tails, etc., could be taken out in barrow loads (piite i)lentifully. On return from inspect- 
 ing the slough, Mr. Higgins left for Victoria by steamer " Princess Louise " at '.'> \).\n. 
 
 The " Dnnsniuir " with Commissioners Wilmot and Armstrong, accom|>aiiied by the 
 Secretary, left Ladner's Landing for Wesfminstei' at 4.1-'") j).in. P)efore leaving, the 
 Commissioners visited the " Delta '' cannery, this is one of the old canneries and of 
 course not being in the season, everything was in a condition of winter (piarters ; the 
 buikling is partly constructed upon piles overhanging the water, with a swift current 
 and some twelve feet of water at the outside. 
 
 The next cannery visited was the "Standard," Laidlaw iV' Co., but as it was closed 
 up, the party did not land but viewed the surroundings from the steamer. This cannery 
 is a large new building, said to have been erected l)y the owners at a cost of about 
 .•pOjOOO for the pui'pose of obtaining twenty additional licenses. It has a frontage of 
 about 200 feet, and is built entirely upon i)iles with the water all the way under. Water 
 at the edge of pier said to be about lifteen feet and the current strong. 
 
 The Commissioners next disembarked at Mr. Ewens cannery or rather canneries, for 
 there are two large ones alongside each other. Mr. Ewen has the largest and finest 
 equipi»ed establisment on the Fraser iliver, and is capable of ]iuUing up 2,000 cases of 
 sahnon a ilay. The canneries are built partly on a small isku;;; near the west bank 
 of the channel and partly on pihis overhanging the watei- -i, current of about six 
 miles an hour runs here, and the water at the dock is abinit fourteen feet deej). The 
 new building which was put up to obtain the twenty additional licenses when all 
 canneries were limited to twenty each, is 100 by 80 feet and cost .*I(),000. The party 
 were shown throughout the buildings and all detiiils explained by the earetakei' and 
 Mr. Munn, to the latter of whom the party were indebted for much valual^le inform- 
 mation on technical matters and small details. 
 
 Empty cases (wooden) cost Ifi cents each, tins cost i^l.OO a easi^ of 4^^ cans, aitd the 
 buildings and material are insured for 2 per cent. Li the new building, 8,000 cases of 
 new empty. tins presented quite a formidable array. 
 
 The Commissioners and party reached New Westminster, at G. 10 p.m. 
 
408 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 The following information re catches by boats was tendered by the book-keeper of 
 the " Delta " cannery at Ladner's Landinfj; : — (extracted from the books of tlie establish- 
 ment in the presence of the Secretary of the Commission). 
 
 1891. — From 1st July to 20th July, boats took loss than '10 a day ; on 2nd July 
 boats l)e<,'in to take over 100 lish a day; on 24th July, 192 is highest; at the end 
 of July, average about 90 to the boat, but in the beginning of August the takes are 
 larger, thus : — On August 1st, one boat takes 274 salmon ; on August 2nd one boat 
 takes .'500 and 3G8 salmon ; on August 3rd one boat takes 418 and 4.'}8 salmon ; on the 
 Gth August one boat gets 005 tisli. 
 
 Then by the end of August they average 200 and 300. And the total Hsh for the 
 season was in 1891, with thirty-live boats, 140,080 tish, and in 1889, with thirty-two 
 boats, 331,076 fish. 
 
 The following written statement was submitted to Mr. Wilmot l)y Mr. C. Stanley, 
 of Guichon's Landing, and was ordered to be incorporated in the minutes of the Com- 
 mission : — 
 
 " Guichon's Landixc, March 4th, 1892. 
 
 " To Mr. WiJmot : 
 
 " Sir, — In giving evidence at the Commission, I did not know the cannerymen 
 were wnnting moi'e licenses, as I had just come up from Guichon's Landing at the time, 
 last Saturday, 27th February, and did not know anything about it, and could hardly 
 believe it when I was told some wanted 25, otliers more, and not being a good speaker, 
 I foi'got lots I would like to say on account of forgetfulness on my part. I tliein^fore 
 write you a little of my expei'ience on this river, and could say nmch more about can- 
 neries, but I think this is sufHcient. T will take oath any time to any part of it, or all, 
 if there is any doubt about it. I have no malice against cannerymen ; I only write 
 what is true and strictly true at that. 
 
 "(Signed), CHARLES STANLEY." 
 
 The following enclosures accomjianied the above communication : — 
 
 " In regard to licenses on the Fi-aser River at the present time, and in previous 
 years, tiiey have ))een issued unfairly and in an indifferent manner, especially towards 
 the iishermen, who are gi anted 150 licenses : because tlie Indians and tish markets take 
 licenses out of that nund)ei', also tiie Port Haney iishery, with seven licenses, that a 
 canneryman bought up last year; .dso Mr. Port's and Dutch Bill's licenses were turned 
 over to cannerymen in the sockeye run, and I am told Mr. ^lax Mowat iiad 10 licenses 
 to Jiimself last year. If tiiei'e is to be a limit to licenses, I thinic GOO is enough and no 
 more — gi^•e 300 to cannerymen and 300 to fishermen, instead of 500 for the I'raser 
 River — any more than that number is not re(|uired. They could be divided in diHerent 
 ways, say 300 to cannei'ies, 250 to fishermen, 50 to Indians. At i)resent the canneries 
 have 20 licenses apiece, that is too many, and more so in the large runs of fish, from six 
 to eight boats will catch all the fish wanted ; the others lying idle in a big run. I my- 
 .self ran a camp of Indians for a canneryman in 1889 ; big I'un ; and only eight or ten 
 boats' fish were wanted to sui)ply the cannery. The Indians were taken and put to 
 work in the cannery when they were stopped fishing ; in fact tlie canneiy then had too 
 nmch fish and tlnvw them away into the river, I myself throwing over two scow loads 
 at the camp, all rotten fish. In 1890, I I'an a camp of Indians for lien Young, Canoe 
 Pass, in sockeye run, and there .saw tish destroyed by wholesale, also a large ship load 
 from the American side ^Point Hoberts) thntwn overboard. He could not can them, 
 although they were all paid for; in fact he knew, like all the others, that lie 
 could not can thoin, for his cannery was overloade<l at the time they were 
 caught and before. The excessive waste and iiulifi'erence in prt^vious years has 
 been as great, in fact more so, for they have done as they j)leased, and as I 
 have had eighteen years experience jit salmon fishing for my.self and running 
 of Indians and whitemen, I can justly say twenty licenses are too many for any cannery 
 on the Eraser River, no matter whether the runs are large or small, and the fish 
 markets being granted ten licenses is a shame and a wrong to the Gshermen -they can- 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 40& 
 
 not use the fish, therefore turn these licenses over to the cannerynien — the canuerynifin 
 perhaps making them a present of one or two of their osvn licenses to get them from 
 two or four licenses is plenty for any market, and they sliould be made not transferable, 
 and all fishermen one license apiece, to be made not transferable, to prevent selling of 
 licenses to other men, and by those means men who are not fishermen will not ap]>ly for 
 them -the Inspector to have power in case of sickness to allow men to fish, [iroviding 
 the fishermen cannot fish it himself Fishermen who are not Biitish subjects to have 
 no license In regard to some men who have licenses, I think they can do well without 
 them — I mean men who have fine farms — from 1(10 to GOO acres of land and others 
 who are employed at the canneries at all around yearly wages, and who (U)n't fish in any 
 run of fish except the sockeye run for the cannery they work for. The canneries could 
 get along well -taking one year with another, l)ig run and small run-with from ten to 
 fifteen licenses. In l>ig runs tliat is too many any more tluiu that number would hurt 
 the free fishermen. I hear the Indian Agent wants 100 licenses — I consider fifty 
 licenses is enough in fact none at all is moi'e like it, for they are wards of the (lovern- 
 ment which gives them fanning implements of all kind-^ — they have fine faiMus, and iire 
 helped l)y the (Jovernment — they can fish all the year round for themselves, and also 
 pay no taxes, they were heie befoi'e \v(> came but let tliem use their ways of fishing and 
 not the whiteman's invention, tlierel)y unders(^lling the whitemen. If allowed that 
 privilege the same as wiiitcMnen, let them pay taxes, have votes, etc. We are taxed !ii'2 
 road tax and $•) jtrovincial tax, and .^20 for a license — fancy i?^") to go to work — just 
 for the privilege of working one year. A large majority of Indians will not work con- 
 tract, but demand days' wages, although th" cannerymen would like to see the Indians 
 get licenses, for as they say ' we can control the Indian but not the whitemen." The 
 Indians don't know enough, but the whiteman knows tco much no wonder they want 
 twenty five licenses, they could do without us all, aiul in bigy.ars not half those licenses 
 would they want. They told the Oovernmeiit in 1S87 and 1888, by unlimited fishing 
 the result on the Fraser would !)■ similar tn tiie Cohnnbiii, n,nd now they say 1,000 
 licenses would not hurt tlie river, but give tiiem twenty-five licenses and the fishermen 
 all they want — what selfishness what are the fishermen going to do with all the licenses 
 they want? Why they couhl not sell their fish, because Mr. cinneryman has twenty- 
 five and too well the canneiyman knows it. Last year a cannery fished lor spring salmon 
 and sold them to the fish mai-ket thinking he would get the fi.sh market licenses, but got 
 left. These capitalists should be brought to time, for as long as sufiicient salmon and 
 good returns, never mind the excessive waste 'let us liaxc tiiose licenses' tliey cry — 
 Don't interfere with us,' 'don't force us to recognize anything,' and then we })rivate 
 monojtolies can laugh, grow rich and look on everything with umity and contempt — by 
 wealth and cunning we can win the means of iuxui-y nev i mind the fishermen, they 
 are weak and igiu)rant such is the diiVerence, they would have people think. The 
 inecpiality in the possessions of individuals means crime and all .-^orts of nasdemcanours 
 the work! over — want tenijits the ])oor, and to preserve former gains tempts the rich 
 reduce the.se licenses and give fishermen a show on'all rivers in ISritish Uoluml)ia — it 
 will prove successful, cause a larger distribution of money, and it will b ■ circulating 
 among the many instead of these few capitalists and agents who want it all, in fact, 
 wouUl take the world, if they coul 1 get it that stojts them. 
 
 Qtfal. 
 
 " Tn regard to offal thrown into the river it is most injurious and causes siokneaa— 
 I myself have been sick drinking river water. 1 know peoph* on the Delta Hats say 
 they had been si(;k through ofFal tiu'own into the river, ntt only oil'al but rotten fish, 
 and those swell-heads the canneries throw into the river at night. .\ swell-head is a 
 rotten can of salmon unfit for market, perfectly rotten. The Chiniman takes a soidei-- 
 ing iron knocks a hoh^ in the can so that it will be sun- In sink, the stench would knoirk 
 a nigger backwards let alone a white man -thrown ov(>rl»nai'(l at night as well as other 
 garbage, all offal floats more or less, ext'ei)t the swell-heads, in eddies and creeks, sloughs, 
 dyke ditches, etc., and cause a most obnoxious smell and sickness. It floats up and 
 down with the tides, some gets on the land, some hangs around the sloughs, etc., a pt s- 
 
i 
 
 410 
 
 MARINE AND FISHEaiES. 
 
 tilent mass of rottenness- -the water unfit to drink — you must go a f^ood distance in a 
 boat tVf)ni the lianiis to <n't a bucket of water. A hiw sliould be passed makiny the 
 cannerymen tow everythinfj in the shape of ofl'al outside to the Gulf of Georgia and 
 there dump it into deep salt water and not b(^ allowed to dump it in fresh water at all. 
 It gets into our nets and makes them slimey and is vei'y nasty to get out, and T have 
 no doubt the salmon don't like it, for if it makes man sick surely it makes salmon sick." 
 
 ' Close Seasons. 
 
 " Except that the licenses are not issued early enough in the spring, say by the 
 10th of March, and not later, for sockeye salmon, one week longer would do no harm, 
 the close season the canners don't trouble about as long as they get enough sockeye, 
 even tlien if they do tish for them, tiiey say they ai'c no good — there should be no close 
 season on them." 
 
 .Vets. 
 
 " The tishermen use a 7^ and 8 inch mesh for spring salmon during March and April, 
 no meshes de<'[). AN'hen the I'iver rises about May, they cut thest^ lusts down to 150, 35, 
 and 40 meshes to tisli along the hai's and banks of the river. A 50 mesh net can only 
 be used early in the spring and then in deep water and only on slack water, high and 
 low slacks. Foi- sockeye 5^ and inch mesh, the majority of nets 40 meshes deep, 
 some W and ."^5, very few 50 mesh, the majoi'ity of nets used at the mouth of the river 
 are .S5 and .'50 meshes dee]), and I do not think that nets at the inoutli and as far out 
 as the sand banks do any harm, tiu^re l)eing lots of room for the fish to escape, most all 
 tile fishing tlnn-e is done on tides, high and low slack, whereas up rivei- they tish day 
 and night never giving the fish a show to escape. There is a good 12 to 14 miles of 
 fishing ground on high slacks in length and about 5 miles wide, so fish get more show 
 to escajie than anywhere on the river." 
 
 Iffifcfiet'i/. 
 
 ''The hatchery is doing good and more hatcheiies should be put up, and I would 
 ■like to hear of them hatching out more red salmon. I have taken sockeyes that had 
 their tails dipt in oval shape ; they were fine large fish ; one weighed 12 pounds; I 
 sent its tail to the inspector in New Westminster. I always believe .salmon return 
 again to their own rivers. Trout on Hariison River and lake destroy lots of salmon 
 ova and eat young salmon. The sockeye themselves ai'e a very vt)racious fish. When 
 fighting tlu'v destroy spawn, but do not eat it ; they disturb it, and it floats to the to[) 
 of the water and floats away. 1 have fished on Harrison Hiver and lake and watched 
 them doing it. Saw-dust is very bad for salmon ; more to young fish." 
 
 Oil Factor I/. 
 • 
 " 1 believe if sonu^ oih! with experience, he could make it pay. The oil factory on 
 
 the river at present is a small concern, and in a big year one or two canneries could 
 sujiply it. With dryers and retorts for retorting the oil they could get away with much 
 more and after retortiug it and refining it they could find a market. T have worked 
 around liei'ring factories where they I'etorted the oil, then refined i(, and the gurry that 
 was left was used as a fertilizer after it went through a drying process, and it was a 
 su«'cess. 1 have seined a good deal foi- herring in the winter time ; also for the factory 
 that was near Vancouver, but the liei'i'ing failed and came less every year; the sup- 
 posed cause was thiowing the oflal into the inlet in pre\ ious years, before Mr. Spratt 
 built his fislierv."' 
 
 Seining/or Sahnoti. 
 
 " Seining for salmon should be sto[ij)ed everywhe e, in river, haibour, bay, creek, 
 or anywhere a seine can be used ; it is a most destructive net ; it takes evei ything it 
 comes across, both little and big, disstroying lots of young and small fish. I have 
 seined both for salmon and herring, and know that for salmon it is most destructive. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 411 
 
 listiince in a 
 iiiiikiiiy the 
 Gi(!orgia and 
 ivater at all. 
 and T have 
 draon sick." 
 
 say by the 
 
 lo no harm, 
 
 gh Hockeye, 
 
 be no close 
 
 h and April, 
 n to 'M), 35, 
 let can only 
 sr, high and 
 icslips deep, 
 of the river 
 rl as far out 
 ipe, most all 
 hey tish clay 
 I 14 miles of 
 more show 
 
 md I would 
 es that had 
 
 pounds ; I 
 nion return 
 s of salmon 
 ish. When 
 s to the top 
 
 nd watched 
 
 factory on 
 leries could 
 ' with much 
 ive worked 
 ' gurry tliat 
 lid it was a 
 the factory 
 : the sup- 
 Mr. 8pratt 
 
 hay, creek, 
 /er\ thing it 
 h. I iiave 
 tractive. 
 
 "Sir, in my mention of the swell-heads thi'own from canneries, I think al)out 200 
 cases to a cannery would be the most thrown away ; of course some more, som(! less ; it 
 is rotten fish ; and in 1889 the Harlock Packing Co. was the company I ran a camp 
 for in the sockeye run, and I will take oath any time that ten licenses will run a can- 
 nery in full blast. In the two big years, even last year, the canneries at the moutii of 
 the river could only just sti'Uggle through, in fact refused tish and would buy none ; in 
 fact there are some canneries who could not take seven or eight boats' tish and keep 
 their wharves clear. 
 
 " Foreigners, such as Austrians, Italians, Greeks, etc., .should be made to prove 
 
 •they iiave resided in the country the re(juired time before getting citizens' papers, as a 
 
 number come from the Puget Sound ports to fish here in tiie spring and sockeye runs, 
 
 and then go back and become United States citizens, so that they can fish on Puget 
 
 Sound. 
 
 " I am, sir, your obedient servant, 
 
 "(Signed), CHAHLES STANLEY, 
 
 " Quichon's Landing, Eraser River."' 
 
 The following memorandum was submitted by Mr. John McXabb, Iiis[>ector of 
 Fisheries for the province of Britisn Columbia : - 
 
 Memo, for cons Ideraf ion of the Jirifis/i Colnnihia Sahnon FisJicrg CoDimission. 
 
 The following suggesti(jns are respectfully submitted : — 
 
 " 1. That the weekly close time on all rivers in British Columbia, with the excep- 
 tion of the Eraser, be from 3 p.m., f)n Saturday to .3 a.m., on th(> following ^[onday. 
 Reasons : — A very large majority of the fishermen are Indians who object, and in fact 
 refuse to labour on Sunday, and as it would not prove detrimental to the interest of the 
 canneryinen or any one else to make the change, the religious convictions of the Indians 
 should be respected." 
 
 " 2. The close time for trout at present is from the l.")tii of October to the loth of 
 March. I beg to suggest that it l)e changed so as to read from the 1st day of ()ctol)er 
 to the loth day of EebruaiT. Reasons : -l?efore tlie ITjth of Octobei' the trout are lipe 
 and in many streams have deposited their spawn, v/hereas in February tliey are in fairly 
 good condition and are in demand for local consumption, other kinds of fish then being 
 scarce." 
 
 ".3. That from tlie l.st to the 'ioth day of Sejitember, both days inclusive, all net 
 fishing be disallowed on the Eraser River. Reasons : After t .e 1st SeptcMuber, sockeye 
 sjilinon are unfit for food, and should have an unobstructed run to their spawning places, 
 after the 2r)th September, the cohoes, or silver salmon, are running in ninnl)ers and are 
 in demand for salting and market pui'poses. 
 
 "4. That the manufjicture of oil as an article of ' commerce, from herring be dis- 
 allowed in IJritish Columbia. Reasons : Heri'ing are valuable as food fish, they are 
 
 sold in large (juantities in the markets of Victoria, Nanaimo, Vancouver, and New 
 Westminster, and are highly jirized as food by .settlers on the coasts and Islands of the 
 province, and also by the Indian population. They are al.so the ju'incipal bait fish of 
 our watei's. Destroying them in immense (juantities foi' oil is a useless waste, as the 
 dog-fish on the coast which are very destructive to all other kinds of fish, are sufficiently 
 numerous to supply all the oil for which a market can be found at present. 
 
 (Signed,) JoHN McNahb. 
 
 Mfuio. for Inforniiifioti (f Coniiiiisslonfrs. 
 
 List of salmon canneries owned and ojierated on the Eraser Uiver during the sea- 
 son of 1891, by the Anglo-lJritish Columbia Canning Comi)any, of London, Enghind. 
 Bell-Irving and Patterson, Agents, Vancouver and Westminster." 
 
 " British Coluinl)ia," " Wadham's," " British American,'' " Can(»e Pass," " Pho-nix," 
 "Britannia," "Garry Point," " Annandale, " and " Duiifries. ' Licenses issued for .season 
 of 1891, 20 boats and gill nets eacii. 
 
 Schedule of Fresh Salmon Dealers who have applied for licenses for season of 1802. 
 
412 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 " E. W. Port ik Co., Win. Vianan, James Wise, J. E. Lord, Boutilier & Co., Neil- 
 son Bros., Port Haney Freezing Co., C. F. Petty it Co., Wright Bros, (i).) 24 canneries 
 have also applied." 
 
 This closes the proceedings of the Commission so far as the public were concerned. 
 But on the 19th March the Commissioners met in New Westminster to draw up a 
 report. The minutes of which meeting and the conclusions arrived at are as follows : — 
 
 Nkw Wkstminstkk, B.C., 19th March, 1892. 
 
 The Commission assembled at 1 p.m., in the parlour of the Colonial Hotel. 
 
 Present : Mr. 8. Wilmot, in the Chair ; Hon. D. W. Higgins, Sheriff W. J. Arm- 
 strong, and Secretary C. F. Winter. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot read the following communication, which was transferred to the 
 Secretary for record : — 
 
 "New WESTMIN.STER, B.C., ISth March, '92. 
 "Samuel Wilmot, Esq., 
 
 Chairman, Fisheries Commission. 
 
 " Deah Sir, We beg to direct your attention to the fact that the dam in connec- 
 tion with the Dominion hatchery is located ui)on Section 7, B. o, N.R. 1 VV. Mr. 
 Alex. Miller, the present owner of the property wishes us to notify you that unless the 
 Government is prepared to purchase the property the dam must be removed forthwith. 
 Kindly advise us of your intentions in the matter, and oblige. 
 
 " Yours respectfully, 
 
 " (Sd.) HAND it MILLER, 
 
 "Jii'^il Esfati' A(jimtK." 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, gentlemen ; I sujipose we are ready for business. It is scarcely 
 necessary for me to say, gentlemen, that what we do here to-day will be [)erfectiy private 
 and whatever conclusions we come to will be submitted to the Minister at Ottawa, and 
 it will be for ]\\m to say whether they shall be made public or not. 
 
 Mr. Hi<!(UNS. — Oh. yes ; keep it peifectly piivate — give nothing to the press at all. 
 Now I think we might take up first the points on which we can agree at once. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot.— Well, I may say gentlemen, that yesterday I drew up a memorandum 
 of matters here. 
 
 Mr. Hui<ii\.s. Oh, by the way, may I ask if you will receive an affidavit as evi- 
 dence ? A man named Cassidy came to me and asked to put in an affidavit as evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Oh, yes ; we have his evidence — it was handed in the other day and 
 I gave it to the Secretary to insert upon the Minutes. There have been one or two 
 others also, and we have placed them upon record. Well, Hrst of all gentlemen, if you 
 will permit me, I will just read over the conclusions I have come to. 
 
 (Mr. Wilmot here read over his recommendations which are detailed further cm.) 
 
 Mr. AuMSTUONc. — Well, put in another i)aragraph that they shall not be a lowed to 
 destroy the dog-Hsh for the liver only. If they want to make oil from the fish, let them 
 use the whole lisli. You see, they kill the dog-fish just for the liver anil throw the rest 
 on the bank and let it lay tlieie. There is just as much oil in the body and it does not 
 reijuire machinery to take it out. 
 
 ]Mr. Wilmot.— V'ei-y well, we will put that down. Now, are there any other ques- 
 tions that you gentlemen would like to place upon the list, and we can discuss them 
 specially afterwards ? 
 
 Mr. HicciiN's. — Perhaps you nuike a paragraph of that (handing in letter) in regard 
 to that train of guano and eau-de-cologne ? 
 
 Union Cluh, Victoria, B.C., .'bd March, 1892. 
 "Mv DEAR Mr. HuaiiNs, — Being much interested in the proceedings of the Fishery 
 Commission now going on, and hearing from friend Hithet that you control the running 
 of the car-load of eau de cologne necessary for the peaceable transportation of the Eraser 
 Ri\er offal from the .salmon canned, I hope you will not overlook an old friend anxious 
 to carry that cai-load of eau-de cologne, when shipped. 
 
 Yours very truly, 
 
 (Sd.) D. J. BROWN. 
 
^ BRITISH COLUMBIA FI8HERT COMMISSION. 413 
 
 Mr. HinoiNS. — Tlien here is an analysis of that water at Cohiluthan Slough, that I 
 took down the other day. I had it analyzed in Victoria by the Government Analyst, 
 a very clever fellow : — 
 
 AnuhjHix of Wdti'r. 
 
 " Had a brown colour and unpleasant smell, re-aotion neutral. ' 
 
 Total solid residue 143 grains per gal. 
 
 Solid inorganic matter 49 " 
 
 Solid organic matter 94 " 
 
 London Thames Companies IS-o tottal solids per gal. 
 
 Manchester water supply 4*7 " 
 
 Glasgow, Loch Katrine 2 -3 " 
 
 Sample of sewage 55'0 " 
 
 Chlorine existing as sodium chloride 31 grains per gal. 
 
 London Thames Companies 1-2 " 
 
 Tunbridge Wells 3-7 " 
 
 Sample of sewage 9*9 " 
 
 11-5 
 
 Free Ammonia representing principally vegetable 
 
 organic matter 40 parts per mil. 
 
 Albuminoid Ammonia (animal matter) 90 " 
 
 Free Ammonia. Alb. Ammonia. 
 
 West Middlesex Water Co -01 -07 
 
 Grand Junction Co '01 '08 
 
 East London Co -03 -09 
 
 Sample of sewage lG-20 -90 
 
 Harrowgate sewage o.^-OO 3-00 
 
 A slight examination under the microscope did not show any living organisms only 
 occasional jelly like masses. As shown by the analysis the water is very bad, but 
 whether it would be the cause of disease or not could be better shown by a careful 
 microscopic examination. 
 
 (Signed,) H. Caumkuiakl, 
 ' Anal If tit for B. C. 
 
 Mr. W^iLMOT. — Well, gentlemen, that goes through all corresjiondence I have 
 received on the fisheries (juestion during the last few days. Now, whatever matter you 
 wish to take up first 1 • _ 
 
 Mr. Ahmstkon*;. — Oh, take up the first item. 
 
 Mr. HicciNs. — Yes, take them seriatim. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Then you think these clauses cover the ground generally? 
 
 Mr. Akmstuonc. — Yes, oh yes, if there are others we can add them. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, then, the first clause is : — 
 
 1. That each canning establishment actually carrying on tlie canning industry 
 shall be entitled to receive eighteen (18) boat licenses to fish as its maximum number, 
 and that tiie fee payable for each such license shall be $'20. 
 
 (Continuing,) Now, I think a cannery getting licenses should \h'. in actual opci'a- 
 tion. Suppose a man puts up a shell and does not work it but simply puts it up in 
 order to get a certain number of licenses, he has an advantage over other parties, 
 don't you think? It strikes me frotn the evidence and from what we hear from many 
 canners that it was very unfair. The only man it would el^'ect I fancy would be Mr. 
 Ewen. 
 
 Mr. Huir.ivs. — Did he not work the new one ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh no, not at all. It is a fine building and with all conveniences 
 but he has not set it going. Now, if we say thr.t he, or any person situated like him 
 shall get so many licenses for a non-working establishment, it gives him a certain advan- 
 tage over others, therefore I put in the clause " canneries in actual operation " Mr. 
 Higgins. 
 
i4 
 t ■- 
 
 414 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 : t 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiNS. — Yes. 
 
 Mr. VV'iLMOT. — Do you think it is correct in the main? 
 
 Mr. Hi(!fiivs. — Well, I think it is if we don't cut the licenses down too short so a.s 
 to put the cjiniiers at the mercy of the fishermen. 
 
 ^Ir. Wii.MOT. — Then, there is another point to take into consideration this year — 
 with the lar>,'er number of licenses given to the fishermen, the canneis will be supplied 
 with more fish than they ever had before. Tliere will be four or five times the number 
 of fishermen working than ever beftn-e, you know. 
 
 Mr. HKi(iiNS. — Yes, but as long as they dcni't Vje able to say you nuist pay so much 
 for the fish. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Oh, yes ; but as long as the canners get a certain number they can- 
 not be combined against. 
 
 Mr. Ahmstkonc;. — And don't you think if canners could get licenses for a non- 
 working cannery, a man could put up many such and have an entire monopoly. Then 
 you remember Mr. Johnston was very nnich opposed to it — I think they should be in 
 actual operation. 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMOT. — Yes, in actual operation — it is a matter between the canners solely. 
 If they want ti> run the second establishment why they must just get their fish from the 
 contractors, but T am satistien this year they will have all the fish they want to work with. 
 And al.so I think the fish will be reduced in value too. 
 
 Mr. Hicciixs. — Yes, and afterwards it will regulate itself — I think after this year 
 fish will be very cheap. But how many licenses are you going to give ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT — Ah, that is the question. Now, Mr. Johnston's evidence is very 
 important on that point — his evidcntte was put in writing alter giving his evidence in 
 Victoria — I will just read from it :— 
 
 " For the information of the Commissioners, I beg to state in reply to the question 
 which was addressed to me, viz. : — ' How many salmon were used for canning purposes 
 and how many cases were packed with same at the Fiaser River Cannery, Deas' Island, 
 last season? that 80,745 salmon (sockeye) were supplied to the cannery and were used 
 in ])acking 7,137 cases of 48 U). tins each, being an average of Hf f fish per case. A tin 
 nominally 1 lb. contains more than a pound of fish— about l"i oz. as an average." 
 
 Well, now, taking that as data, gentlemen, I find that fifteen boats will produce 
 the amount repre.sented, at a catch of 5,000 fisii lo a boat, which I think is about a fair 
 average. The canners ask for twenty five licenses, nnd here a man in his own calcula- 
 tion makes fifteen boats do it. Some say ten but I think that altogether out of the 
 quest on. Now, taking everything into aecount, with the increased number of boats to 
 be fished, I think twenty-five out of the (juestion — ten I think too low — they should get 
 a sutficieiit number to allow of them being fairly well supplied. 
 
 iMr. HicfiiNS. — Well, pei'haps some of these canneries might not use them — they 
 might keep them as a reserve check now, you should place enough licenses in their 
 hands to be protected I think they should get twenty five — I want to see them 
 protected and alsoHhe fishermen protected. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. - AV'ell, what is your opinion, Mr. Armstrong?. I could hardly agree 
 with you, Mr. Higgins. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTHOXf!. — Well, I have been thinking this matter over a good deal and have 
 been talking with many jteople about it. Some say some y(»ars ten boats will catch all 
 they can handle — then in a poor year fifteen will get enough and twenty will leave the 
 canneries entirely independent of fishermen altogether. I don't want to see the fisher- 
 men entirely deprived of the \neans of selling their fish ancl so I think the figure should 
 be placed somewhere b.tween fifteen and twenty. 
 
 Mr. Hi(!(;i\s. — Well, but in a bid year they want more than their own boats — 
 they often use moi'e than their own boats — they should get n number so as to keep them 
 not at the mercy of the fishermen. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTKONG. — Well, if you give them ten they would not be at the mercy of 
 the fishermen. 
 
 Mr. Hic;(ii\s. — Oh, well, but that would not do in a bad year; they would be at 
 the mercy of the fisheinien. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERT COMMISSION. 
 
 415 
 
 short 
 
 so as 
 
 this year — 
 be supplied 
 he number 
 
 ay so much 
 
 r they can- 
 
 for a non- 
 jly. Then 
 oukl be in 
 
 lers solely, 
 ih from the 
 work with. 
 
 r this year 
 
 ice is verv 
 videncc in 
 
 le question 
 \f purposes 
 as' Island, 
 were used 
 \se. A tin 
 ige." 
 
 11 produce 
 )out a fair 
 n calcu la- 
 out of the 
 f boats to 
 should get 
 
 em — they 
 3s in their 
 see them 
 
 •dly agree 
 
 and have 
 catch all 
 leave the 
 he fisher- 
 re should 
 
 1 boats — - 
 ;eep them 
 
 mercy of 
 
 uld be at 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, but what makes me think 25 too many is ; at when the can- 
 ners were in Ottawa they asked for 20, now they ask for more ; peiliaps next year "i") 
 will not be enough. 
 
 Mr. Akmstronc. — Well, we should look at it from all sides and I certainly think 
 we should protect the fishermen ; if we give the caniiers all the licenses they want they 
 have no use at all for i\\i\ fishermen. 
 
 Mr. HiGcilNS. -Well, I think 25 licenses a fair number. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — And you say, Mr. Armstrong, between 15 and 20? 
 
 Mr. Ahmstkono. — Yes. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — ^Well, there is cjuite a difference between you. 
 
 Mr. I£io(!iNS. — Well, what do you say yourself? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I will say IS -divide the matter up — 18 licenses to be given 
 to the canners. In this way we are only reducing them two from wiiat the}' had before, 
 and then the greater number of fishermen will enal)le them to get all tlic lish they 
 want. It does not matter to me personally whether they get 15 or 50, but looking at it 
 from a public stand-point, T think the lisliermon should l)e thouglit of. I would not 
 like to say the canners should get many less thi>n they have had l)efoi'e, but these 
 fishermen are all paying their $20, and they should have a fair opportunity. 
 
 Mr. HuifJiNS. -Well, call it 20 licenses and I will call it unanimous : T don't want 
 to see this important industry put down. 
 
 Mr. AuMHTHONf!. — We don't want to effect it at all. 
 
 Mr. Hujoixs. — What do you say, Mr. Wilmot ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I could not go beyond 18. 
 
 Mr. HiOdiNS. — Well, we will divide on the (piestion. I cannot agi-ee to curtail 
 one of the most important industries we have here : I say 25. 
 
 Mr. AmisTHONci. — I say 18. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I say 18. 
 
 ^Ir. Ahmstronc. And that nund^er is more than any fisherman gave in his 
 evidence as fair for them. 
 
 Mr. HioriiNS. — I don't see what the fishermen have to do with it. They are like 
 trade associations everywhere ; they have no sympathy with capital at all, while cajital 
 feeds them. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well then now. For the section with 18 boats — Messrs. Arm- 
 strong and Wilmot. Nay — Mr. Higgins, who requires 25 licenses. Now, foi' the second 
 section. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — 2. That each freezing establishment, actually engaged in the 
 freezing and exporting of fish, shall be entitled to obtain not exceeding seven (7) 
 licenses, and that the fee for each license shall be 820. (Continuing.) Now, ] under- 
 stand that Port and others calling theinselves freezers got .'W licenses, or weve working 
 30 boats. Now, I don't think he is a freezer at all, but this section has to do with men 
 putting up large establishments for freezing fish and shipjjing them e:>.st, and I think 
 the business should be encouraged. There is only one person here engaged in the l)usi- 
 ness that I know of, oi- perhaps two. 
 
 Mr. Ai{MSTRON<i. — Well, the same thing applies to them as to canners, for if you 
 give them all the boats they want they will not buy any fish from the fishermen. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, if I remember rightly, Mr. Armstrong, when we were at the 
 establishment the other day that man said he did not care much about the licenses, as 
 he could get all the fish he wanted. But, I tliink, as they were going to establish 
 similar estal'lishments on the Skeena, they should get a certain number of licenses. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Well, you might put it in this way, for each thoroughly equipped 
 freezing establishment with a capacity of so mui h, or something of that kind, for he 
 might say ho was going to build at Skeeiia, Point Haney, and other places, and he 
 might get so many licenses, and then not put the establishments up at all. 
 
 Mr. Hi(!fii\s. — How many would you give each freezer? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Suppose we gJ. ve them eight licenses? 
 
 Mr. Armstronc!.^ — That is to'i much in proj)ortion to what you have given the 
 canners. They don't send forward as nmch fish as canners, and I think if you give 
 them six or seven it would be all they want. 
 
416 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Yes ; but you must not confound the man who gets his fish and 
 simply ships them in ice with the real freezer. One has simply to have but a mere 
 shell (»f a buildinj^, if he so likes, while the other has to have air-lined walls, manu- 
 facture his ice, etc.; it is a very difteretit uuitter. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiN.s. — Well, but we are talking now oi the man who builds a proper 
 freezer 1 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — -Yes ; peivsons actually engaged in freezing and exporting fish j 
 what number would you say, Mr. Higgins ? 
 
 Mr. Hi(J(iiNS. — Say .seven, but do not let them sell their ti.sh to the canners. 
 ■ Mr. Akmstronc. — Yes ; say seven licenses. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well ; we will insert seven in the section and call it unanimous. 
 
 Mr. 
 Mr. 
 Mr. 
 Mr. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. — Now, Section 3. ' 
 
 ."?. That each establishment engaged in the actual business of shipping or exporting 
 fish in ice, or otherwise, but not in the manner of freezing or canning, shall be entitled 
 to obtain noh exceeding thiee (3) licenses, at a fee of !|20 each license. 
 
 (Continuing). These are per-soiis shipping fish in loose ice. The expense of putting 
 up a place for carrying on this business is very small compared with the other. Now 
 what do you gentlemen suggest? 
 
 Ml'. Akmstijong. Well, you suggested the other, what do you say? 
 W II. MOT. I would say 4. 
 HuujiNs.- — T say .'5. 
 
 . Ahmsthon(;.- I say 3, I want to encourage our fishermen. 
 WiLMOT. — Very well, we will make it unanimous, 3 licenses. 
 
 4. That each and every local trader or dealer in fish for home consumption, in 
 cities, towns, or country, actually engaged in such trafiic, shall be entitled to obtain not 
 exceeding two ("J) licenses at a fee of §20, each license. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Nt»w this is for per.sons who have a shop or market, they do not 
 export or freeze fish nor do they fish themselves, but they may have boats. 
 ^Ir. Ahmsthon(j. — 2 boats are enough to supply a market. 
 Ml'. WiLMOT. ~ Do you all say 2 ? 
 
 Mr. Hictiixs.- -These are tradei-s in cities, towns, or country? 
 Mr. WiLAiOT. — Yes. 
 Mr. Hi(i(!ixs. — Very well, 2 licenses. 
 Mr. AViLMOT. — Well, unanimously 2 licenses. 
 
 5. That all bona fide fishermen being British subjects and actual residents of the 
 province shall be entitled to obtain one ( 1 ) license to fish, upon payment of the sum of 
 S20 for such license. 
 
 Air. WiLMOT. — I think that is unanimous, one license to all. 
 
 Mr. HuifJixs. — ^I would make the fee less, say 81 o. 
 
 Mr. A\'iLMOT. — Oh well, it has been !?20, I do not think it would do to lessen it. 
 
 Mr. Hifuiixs. — Very well, leave it at $20, but those poor fishermen of whom you 
 are so considerate, is it not a high figure for them. , 
 
 Ml'. Ai{M.sTKOX(i.— Oh, yes, but it has Ijeen !?20, leave it at $20. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, that is unanimous then, $20. 
 
 G. That every actual resident settler (with his family residing with him), shall be 
 entitled to obtain one (1) license to fish, upon payment of $2 for the same, and shall be 
 permitted to fish in any of the waters of British Columbia, except in any prescribed 
 limits at the mouths of rivers or streams, or during the close times, every such settler 
 shall be a British subject and such license will only permit of fishing for family use, but 
 not for sale or barter. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;r;ixs. — Well, I think, although the fee is only $2 you might make it less, 
 I think a man should be able to fish in front of his own land. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh well, it is simply a regulation, the fee is made small and is 
 simply to control them, in fact they ask for it themselves. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i<iixs. — Well, I would strike out the part about the family. 
 
is Bsh and 
 )ut a mere 
 nils, munu- 
 
 Is a proper 
 
 rting fish ; 
 
 lers. 
 
 unanimous. 
 
 ir exporting 
 be entitled 
 
 of putting 
 her. Now 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 417 
 
 Lunption, in 
 obtain not 
 
 ley do not 
 
 nts of the 
 the sum of 
 
 ?ssen it. 
 whom you 
 
 ), shall be 
 d shall be 
 prescribed 
 ch settler 
 y use, but 
 
 ke it less, 
 
 all and is 
 
 Mr. ArjM.STR0N(J. — Well, I want to prevent half-breeds and others going up river 
 and 8(juatting anywhere and willing themselves settlers when they really aie not, they 
 have no families nor do they own land. 
 
 JNIr. WiLMoT. Then you see Mr. ITiggins, this applies to up the river, beyond 
 where the ordinary commereial tLshermeii cannot iish ; whereas the settler can tish any- 
 where. Then this regulati(»n gives a sort of control over them. 
 
 Mr. Ahmsthonc. — I think you had better h't that go Mr. Iliggins, it would not 
 do to let everybody Hsh for their own use. They could not all get a net and boat, and 
 they cost money, and if a man has a family he will be more careful not to run the 
 chances of being fined, etc. 
 
 Mr. WiL.^ior. — Yes, I think, Mr. Higgins, that you had better let that go. 
 
 Mr. Hl(i(JiN.s. -Very well, I will take your expeiieiice for it. 
 
 Mr. VViLMOT. — That is agreed then, Sec. (I unanimous. 
 
 7. That the regular annual close time for salmon fishing in any of the rivers, or 
 streams of British Columbia, shall be fi-om the 1st of October to the 1st 31arch followinir 
 in every year. 
 
 That t\u' weekly close time for fishing for salmon or other fish in the waters of 
 British Columbia shall be fi-om G o'clock on every Saturday till ll! o'clock midnight on 
 the following Sunday. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Now, in the recommendaticms of persons giving evidence in this 
 matter they say the use of o| inch mesh shall pi-evail from 1st Mai-ch to :i.")th August. 
 But at the present time they do not u"e ojj' but 7^. Now they say a close season from 
 1st Novend)er to 1st March, but the spawning is not o\er by 1st November. I think 
 you can all see the propriety of having an annual close .seas(»n, because after the opeiations 
 of the canneries are over, when these fish are caught with sj)awn running out of their 
 bodies, a disgusting fish is being put upon the market. Then as regards the Sunday 
 close time ; now, I believe it should be up to 12 o'clock Sunday — I think the whole 
 Sunday should be kept. 
 
 Mr. HuiraNS. — Well, in that case you see the canneries would iuive no work tm 
 Monday morning. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTRONO. — Yes, but I think thei-e is another point we should look at. The 
 canneries have been used to hiring Indians, and while that is all very well, you must 
 remember they take the j)lace of whitemen, and although they are got cheaper, still it is 
 a fact that the whitemen are in the long run cheaper, because the whitemen will go out 
 at any time whereas the Indians will not. Now if the Indians are paid by the piece — 
 as a rule they will bring in a good many salmon, but if they are paid by the day they 
 know just how many fish it will take to pay their wages, and so you will not get many 
 fish. Now, I would put it either that there should be no Sunday work at all, or I would 
 leave it as it is now — if there is a full run of fish on ]Monday they will have them in by 
 noon and tliere is plenty of time to put them up. 
 
 ^Ir. WiLMOT. Then the Indians have religious scruples they tell me — by the way 
 what time do you have daylight here ? 
 
 Mr. HuJci.NS. — Oh, it is nearly daylight all night. I think I would not advocate 
 any change in the Sunday close time. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I go stiongly on having all day Sunday as a day of rest— I 
 may say, Mr. Higgins, that I have noticed more inclination in British Columbia to break 
 Sunday than in any otlu r province in the Domijiion, and now I see that Parliament is 
 going to be asked to pass an Act that at the Canadian Government Exhibit at the 
 World's' Fair all shall be closed on Sunday. 
 
 Mr. AuAisTKOXfi. - Well, but I think if we put it at 3 or 4 o'clock on Monday 
 morning -how would that do? 
 
 yiv. HuuiiNS. — Pshiw — 3 or 4 o'clock Monday morning? why you don't want them 
 to catch fish at all. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Oh, well ; it is no use trying to persuade me that they cannot 
 put up fish on Saturday — I know they could do it if they liked but they want all day 
 Saturday and Sunday to themseives. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, but the canners asked themselves to have the close time 
 Saturday and Sunday fl/jvvn to Monday, at G a. m. Then it was reduced to G p. m., 
 Sunday. 
 
 lOc—21 
 
I 
 
 ) ' 
 
 
 418 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Hifi(i INS. —Well, prol)al)ly it did not work well tliiit way and so was chaii^'ed. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Wt^ll, for three or four years they asked to have it made at six 
 oV'loek Monday niorninj,'; then they asked that it he ehan;,'ed hack to Sunday evenin^f. 
 Now, if they ^vere satisfied with (') a. in., Monday, for several years, 12 ini(hnght Sun- 
 day would lie no hardship. 
 
 •Mr. AinisTUo\(i. Well, if they dithi't know what they wanted, I think we should 
 estahlish a rule for them ; I .say make it Monday nKirnin;^. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. I eertainly think all the Sunday should he kept, especially as you 
 are trying,' here to christianize the Indians, ami 1 do not think as u people we should 
 allow this had example to remain. 
 
 Mr. HuioiNs. It will l)e hard W(..k christiani/in<,' them, I fear. (Laughter.) 
 Well, what do you say, Mr. Wilmot / From when till when I 
 
 Mr. WiL.MoT. From 12 o'clock Saturday, if you choose, to 6 o'clock Monday 
 morning. 
 
 Mr. Akm.sthon*!. — I would .say from fi o'clock Saturday morning until .'J o'clock 
 M«mday morning. 
 
 Mr. IIkkmns. Well, hut I don't think you will stop Sunday work around the 
 canneries, no matter what you do ; you might as well try to stop work on sailing 
 vessels at .sea, making sail, reefing, etc. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. - Well, here is another view of the matter ; there is going to he such 
 au increase; of fishing that the fish should, I think, get the advantage of it. Now there 
 is going to he, I fancy, nearly a thousand licenses issued this year, and these w'ill cer- 
 tainly sweep otr the givater luiinher of fish that come in ; so you see they nnght fairly 
 he given the advantage of an extended weekly close time. Well, what do you say, Mr. 
 Armstrong ? 
 
 Mr. Armsthoxo. I say 6 o'clock Saturday morning to .'} o'clock Monday morning. 
 
 Mr. HuKiixs. — Well, I will go with you, Mr. Chaivmaii, and call it 12 o'clock 
 Suiulay night. 
 
 Mr. WiLMtn'. — Now, cannot we make it unanimous, Mr. Arm.strong? 
 
 Mr. AiiMSTKONci. — Very well ; I do not want to be too obstinate ; say 12 o'clock 
 Sunday. 
 
 ^Ir. HuifiiNS. — Now, on the first paragiaph of that section 7, I would prefer being 
 placed on recor I as wishing to defer my opinion until I have read the evidence. You 
 see I have not had the advantages of you gentlemen in being present at all the sessions, 
 so 1 would like to give my views on that part <>f the section later on. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well ; what do you say, Mr. Armstrong ? Do you agree with 
 the leading paiagraph ? 
 
 Mr. Ahmstuonc. — Oh, yes; I think that is all right. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Very well; we will .say: Ayes — Messrs. Armstrong and Wilmot, 
 and that Mr. Higgins defers his opinion until he has had an opportunity to read the 
 evidence. 
 
 8. That the limitation for the size of mesh of salmon nets and the period in which 
 such sized nets shall be used, i~.u dl be as ft)lIows : 
 
 A net with a T^-inch mesh for capturing spring .salmon to be used from March lat 
 to August 15th. A net with a mesh not less than .")i|-iiich mesh for sockeye, cohoe, or 
 other salmon, may be used only between 1st July and 1st t)ctober. The above meshfes 
 are extension measure. 
 
 ^Ir. Wilmot.- -This is for catching spring -salmon only. 
 
 Mr. HuioiNs. -Is that all right? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Oh, yes ; I think so. 
 
 Mr. AifMSTHONfi. — But would not 15th July be sufticient'J 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, it would only efi'ect the freezers ; you know they cannot 
 catch sockeye with the big net. 
 
 Mr. AmisTKONfi. — No ; thej' cannot catch .sockeye with the big net. 
 
 Mr. HnauN's. — But suppo.se a run of sockeye came in? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot.— Oh, well, they cannot fish for .sockeye very well ; you see the net 
 is difl'erent and they do not begin to fish for sockeyes until July, the latter end of July. 
 
 Mr. Hkkiins. — But if they do come they can use them. Is not that so? 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISnERT COMMISSION. 
 
 419 
 
 ik we shuuUl 
 
 iod in which 
 
 Mr. Ahmhtkono. - \V»'ll, hut I don't think they mine in so eurly ; they liuve been 
 CHUj^lit later every year; they are nut caught for canniu),' until about the loth or 20th 
 of July. 
 
 Mr. HicidiNS. — Still, is it intended to prohibit tlie use of snuiller inesh ? T fancy I 
 have heard of the eohoe beinjj; cauj^ht for eannin;,' in Septenilwr or Octobet. 
 
 Mr. AioisTitoNci.— Oh, no; not to any e.vtent. 
 
 Mr. HnatiNH. -Mr. Winter, have you that canners' testimonial? If you have, 
 please let nie .see it. 
 
 The Secretary handed the memorial to Mr. Higj,'ins. 
 
 jNlr. Wii.MOT. — Well, at any rate, ^^entlemen. you see tluring these spawning; times 
 fishing' should be i>rohibited, because, if tish are then caught, foul tish are being put 
 upon the market. 
 
 Mr. A»M8THON(;. -Oh, well, they don't do timt ; after the 1st of Septenil)er the 
 sockeye will not suit the market. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — No; but if they are caught and frozen and sent on in that way, 
 then it is stocking the market with a poor Hsh. 
 
 Mr. Aini.sTiioNf!. — Yes; when they are thawed out they are a poor ti-sh. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. Well, from the weight of evidence presented, all salmon .spawn 
 about the same tniie, and any salmon caught in rivers after September is not fit for 
 food. Of course, if caught in the sea, it is (lifferent ; but in the rivers they are a soft 
 flabby body, and of no use for food. Now, the TJ^-inch mesh is for spring salmon, and 
 they sIm hid be caught between 1st March and lOth August; after that they are not 
 caught. Then with .^)^-inch for .sockeyes and cohoes, and all other salmon, from 1st 
 July to 1st October. 
 
 Mr. Hkjcjinh. — Well, would you mind laying over that matter until T look over 
 the evidence ; I wmdd prefei- that. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, but you see from the Order in Council the r);]-inch mesh 
 is established for sockeye and the canners themselves asked that 7| should be estab- 
 lished for the spring salmon. 
 
 Mr. HiGfiiN.s.^Very well ; we will lay that over. 
 
 9. Thai all licenses so obtained shall not be transferable under any conditions 
 whatever. Without the consent in writing from the Department of Fisheries. 
 
 ]\ii'. "^\ .i.MOT. — I think that is unanimous ; it is fair all round. 
 
 Mr. AimsTHONVi. f)h, yes. 
 
 Mr. HicciNS. — Ts it understood that no one but genuine fishermen shall get a 
 license ? No watchmakers, saloon-keepers, or others ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, it is the intention that none but fishermen shall get fisher- 
 men's licenses. In section .') we say all "bond Ji(l>' fishermen, British subjects." 
 
 Mr. Hi(;(iiN.s. — ^Very well, I think section 1) is all right. 
 
 10. ^hat the tidal boundaries for all, or any fishing for commercial purposes con- 
 nected with canning, freezing or exporting of salmon, shall be at Pitt River and at a 
 line across the Fraser River at Whonnack Creek, above these two points on the Pitt 
 and Fraser Rivers, netting or fishing for conmiei-cial purposes, as above described, is 
 forbidden. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — You see, Mr. Higgins, the limit has been, as per this map in the 
 departmental report for 1890, up to Hannnond and Pit^ River Bridge. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;<ii\s. Well, was this ever enforced? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — No, but it has been substantially admitted by all. Now what we 
 desire is to have all the body of the rivei' and upper waters for spawning purposes, and 
 to place the limit on the main river at Whonnack Creek, there is no commercial fishing 
 beyond there, is there Mr. Armstrong? 
 
 Mr. Ahmstho\(;. — Yes, up to the Mission. 
 
 ]\Ii'. WiLMOT. Oh yes, I i-ecollect, we had a letter about that, some one was catch- 
 ing fish and supplying the C.P.R. Now I think it would be most desirable lo have all 
 these upper waters for the benefit of the fish. There is no fishing beyond Mission now, 
 and you will see the propriety of establishing a fair boundary. 
 
 lOc— 27i 
 
ir 
 
 
 420 
 
 MAIUNE AND FISIIKRIKS. 
 
 Mr. IIkmmns. TluMT is no lisliin;,' in Pitt Hivcr at nil now is tliorr? 
 
 Mr. Wll.MOT. — No; nttnc iit all, this has hccn kept t'ntiic ami we k«'('i) plantiiif; 
 younj^ lisli tlu'iu^ all the time. Well, what, shall wt' rail it ? Shall we say that section 
 (k'tininjj the limit at I'itt Uridj^c and W'honnarks Creek is unanimous? 
 
 Mr. AinisTHoNd. Oh yes. 
 
 Mr. I[ Kit; INS. N'eiy well. 
 
 11. The use of seines for eapt mini,' iisli of any description is wholly forbidden at 
 the mouths of all rivers or streams within eertain limits thereof as may lie laid down liy 
 the Department of l''islu\ries. 
 
 .Mr. IlKaMNS. They do not use seines down here do they? 
 
 Mr. AinisruoNii. No. 
 
 Mr. lli(ii;iNs. -Well, they say they cannot catch any tish uj) in thenorthein rivers 
 without them. 
 
 Mr. .\i{MsrnoN<;. 'I'hey lished out the N'ictoria llarhour for you. 
 
 Mr. lli(;(iiNs. \\'<'ll, yes, liul as a matter of fact the pa<'kers should ne\(M'hav(^ 
 been permitted to i^o up to these northern rivi-rs and start establishments if now they 
 are to lie deprived of the only way in which they can catch tish for their factories. 
 
 Mr. W'll.Mor. Well, I am sure, Mr. Ilii,',t;ins, if yon had had t he <'xperieuce 1 have 
 had in the use of seines in the east yon would feel very decided about their pernicious 
 eilects. 
 
 Mr. lliiaiiNs. Well, 1 would not a'^n'cc with that section, for I am satislied if the 
 men up thci'c could cati'h lish without a scitie they would not use it. 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mor. Well, but in that very river yon mean the <j;i'cat decrease in the 
 cati'h there is the most coi:;ent reason for prevent ini; seining in my opinion. 
 
 Mr. liiiaJiNs. Well, Itut they cannot catch them at ;dl with unythin;j; else. 
 
 Mr. .\HM,sriioN(i.- What do(^s the statute say on that point.? 
 
 Mr. Wll.Mo'r. Well, the I'.ritish Columliia Kcnulations .say "the use of .seines is 
 forbidden within thewattM's of I'.ritish ('olumbia," (O.C". 7th Nov., IS'.IO.) in laruc ri\i'rs 
 liketht^ h'l'aser and Skeena the principal tishini;- is now cai'ried on ritjlit- out in the 
 estuary with drift nets now to interfere with drift nets at the mouths of rivei's would 
 be \ery injudicious, but w h(>n you come to these small ri\-ers wheredi'ift ntitsmiyht just, 
 as well ite used, the rci^ulations say these seines shall not be used. 
 
 Mr. IluajiNS. Well, I thought ,M r. Spencer's evidence was very clear on that 
 point, where he statetl that they could not catch lish at all unless they used these seines. 
 
 Mr. Wll.^nrr. Well you see thesi> seines are not used elsewhere they ai'(^ most 
 (lest riu'tive appliances, e\en drift ini;' foi' salmon is allowiul oidy in \'our provinc(>, it is 
 not peiinilted elsewhere. 
 
 Mr. liliaiiNS. Now, about the one-third of t he channel Sub.scction S of .section 
 S of t he h'ishei'ies Act reads " so as to obsl rucl more than one thii'd of the width of any 
 riser." Now, that nuist besomewhal mixed, because 1 ha\e alwjiys understood that it 
 was the one third that was to be left open. Now, how is this' I h,it would mean that 
 two-thirds was to be left open 1 ne\er understood il ihiit wav. 
 
 Mr. Wll.Mor. Well, .Mr. Secretary, just take a note of t hat, aii<l we will lia\ e it 
 looked into. 1 do not understiind the matter I always undei'stood that it was the. 
 third that was to be kept open we will ha\e it looked into Mr. Iliyu;ins. 
 
 Mr. IIkkiiss. Well, about the seines, I would iikc to m.iki' ;. I'csei'N at ion in favour 
 of the Nimkish l{i\er 1 know-Mr. Spencer has told me often that they could not catch 
 any (ish at all with tin- ijill nets .and he had tried if often. 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mor. Well, but look at the decrease in their catch there for the past six 
 years. Then, Mi'. Mowat was instructed ti> lake e^^s up there and they wert^ taken up 
 and what has becoiiM' of them? I don't know, but they were asked for on account t>f 
 the river liavini; become depleted. The represenlal ions were that I h(M'i\er had declined 
 and fallen oil' very much, and then since that accordinic to the published returns of t he 
 catch il has much further fallen oil', and if Mr. Ivirle la' any o>ie else will only look at 
 the real reason, they will see that this seiniiifj; is the real cause of il, Mr. |<]arle when 
 down last year was very anxious about it, and the Minislvrwent into the matter 
 thoroughly and .said the thing was ,so clear that they were destroying their o\, n riser. 
 
 
niUTlSU OOLUMHIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 421 
 
 rtlici'ii rixoi's 
 
 Mr. IlKJdiNs. Oh, well; l)iit, tlic dccTcasr has diily biH-ii for a y«')ir or two, imtl I 
 (loii't- know as (,lia,t, lias lu'cii the t-ausc. I would vote t'(»r tlu^ msohitioii makiiif; a rcscr- 
 vaiioii ill favoiii' of (lie Niiiikish, until 1 <,'»■( t'urtlici- cvidcdU't'. I do not want to ;fo it 
 blind until I j^ct. full infoiinatinn. 
 
 Mr. WiLMor. Well, what do you say, .Mr. .\nnsti-onL,' .' 
 
 Ml'. Ahm.stkom;. This is of coups*' a rfcoiuiMcndation to the MiniKtcr of Marino 
 and Kislicrics to clian;,'!' the law. 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mor. \Vcll, I don't know as it is fxacily. 
 
 Mr. AiiMSTitoNc. Well, I don't know as I can consistently .ask the Min.stcrto 
 «<xciii))t one riv(>i- I am siitisticd thut^ .seines are iiijuiioiis and shoiild ii(> not allowed. 
 
 Mr. \Vii,>\oi'. W'l'll, .IS far as I am concerned, I am iiuite satisfied witli the section 
 no rivers should he exem|Ued. 
 
 Mr. llitajiNs. Well, you mi;,dit. let. that section lay over I cannot a,!,'ree to it at 
 any rate until I j,'et further information. 
 
 iMr. Aini.sTKONCJ. Well, leave it until later. 
 
 I'J. That there shall he no discrimination with re^'ard to the numliers of licenses, 
 nor tJie fees jiay.ahle for (he same, for canners or others t lirouijhout the. waters of British 
 Columhia. 
 
 Mr. lllii(!iNs. -Y'es, no discrimination. Oh, hut what, about th(> SkeiMia IMver ? 
 AVIiat are the reasons they t;iv(! for a continuation of the present discrimination in fees 
 — there th«»y jiay but !?r» \u)\\ I believe, while here the rate is $-2{). 
 
 Mr. WiKMor. -Well, on the Skeena they .say tliei-e is no hntcliery while there is one 
 liert^ while here tlwy comiilain then? is more eompelilion tiiaii up north and thelicen.se 
 here should be as low, or the same tliiure as theirs. 
 
 Mr. lluaJiNS. What number of licen.ses were held by canneries up north last year 
 — can you t,ell, Mr. ("hairman ? 
 
 Mr. Wll.MoT. There were .'iOO lictnises on the Skeena 2()(( to c.uiners and 100 to 
 outsiders. 
 
 Mr. llnaiiNs. Mow many canneries were there '.' 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mor. lOitfht or nine. 
 
 Mr. llnaiiNs. .\nd what do they pay for their lic(>nscs ? 
 
 Mr. Wli,M(rr. Kiv(> dollars. And these people down here all unanimously dedans 
 that the fees should be made the s;iine. 
 
 Mr. llnaJiNS. Well, but there is the hatchery here (hat is ipiit.e an item. 
 
 Mr. Wll.MoT. Well, but th(>y liave a correspondini; advantaj,'e up there ihi^y do 
 not have the same eomix't it ion. 
 
 Mr. .VitiMSTUONd. .And (hen lish run mr.eh mor<' regularly :>n tlieHkoena than hero. 
 
 Mr. llnaiiNS. What do the tishermen ])ay here ? 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. ( >li, they all pay $•_'() for (he past, three years. T have no doubt, (hat 
 tli(> northern men will make a fuss about it, but you can briny; up the evidence from 
 canners ( hemseht's. 
 
 Mr. MwaiiNs. Well, j)ut lue down that (here should l)e no discrimination in the 
 licen.ses nor fees, exi'cpt in the case of northern ciinneries, where the ft>e should remain 
 as luMH^Iofore. 
 
 Mr. Ai(M.sTi(oN(i. 1 aj,n'ee with tlu> resolution that there slnaild b(> no discrimina- 
 tion in tin? license fees. 
 
 I.'i. That, the tlirowinif of lish olVal or dead lish. saw-diist, mil! rubbish, or aiiv d(>le- 
 terious substance into the rivers, or other wa(ers fre(pien(ed by tish, is .dike injurious to 
 these wattM'.s, and to (ho inhabitants residing; alom;- the ,s,ime, and therefore, (he lii.ws 
 rel.'Uinu; (o t,h(> prevention of olVal and di'leterious subs(,nices beiiii,' thrown into such 
 wat.ers, should be enforced in the intorests of the community rd lar-j^e. 
 
 Mr. Wii.Moi'. Now, I ,i;o in for that, because I ;^o upon ihv print'ipli' of i(, bein^ 
 «'orrec( and beiiiL,' enforct'd anywhere else. Wha( do you say, .Mr. 1 1 ii^'f^'ins .' 
 
 Mr. llnaiiNS. Well, I am under (he impression that if the otVal w;is towed out to 
 deep water out t(( the deej) channel of the river, it would pa.ss out (o sea and do no 
 <lamai,'e a( all ; but, if left neai' the canneries, I would not allow it at all. 
 
 Mr. Wii.Mo'i'. Well, I liav(> been much surprised in ijettin}^ evidence from fishery 
 oflioors for W(? lia\e had anofher ('ommission, or invest.i,t,Mtion, since last with you in 
 
422 
 
 MARINE AND FISHEBIES. 
 
 regai'd to the old way of cribbing the offal. That was a feai'ful practice, they say, much 
 worse even than letting it go as now. 
 
 Mr. Hi(!(iiNS. — Well, I think if it was towed out into the stream, it would do no 
 damage, but this thing of dumping it down near the caniieric^s, I would not allow. 
 
 Mr. Akmstuong. — Well, now, is it not a question whether we are doing justice to 
 all parties in allowing this offal to be thi'own away 1 Now, you know the dog-tish are 
 plentiful, and they catch them just for the liveis. Now, if tliey would put up oils, 
 fertilizers, etc., out of this offal, could not a most merchantabh; article be made ? 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiNS. — Well, but they say who have tried it, that it tloes not pay. Mr. 
 Lfulner says that he cannot get rid of the article. 
 
 Mr. Akmstkonc;. — Well, here is Tom Cunningham, in giving his evidence states he 
 could take twenty tons of it. Now, why don't Ladner say I will give it to you for $10 
 — why could they not sell it cheaper to introduce it l Certainly, the oil is very profit- 
 able at 3") cents a gallon, for that is all dog-tish oil is worth, and ev(!n supposing they do 
 lose $200 or $.'{00 for a year or two until this business is put on a good footing, I don't 
 think we would be doing right to let all this matter and good material be thrown away. 
 Then, if put in near the canneries, how can you expect it to float away? 
 
 Mr. Hu;<iixs. — Oh, yes, it floats away, and then a great deal of it is eaten up. 
 Then, you know, two flood tides go out each day. 
 
 Mr. AuMSTUONO. — But another tide comes in and it all cimies bjick again. 
 I think if vou don't let them throw it away fhey will find st)me means of getting rid of 
 it. 
 
 Mr. Hkjcins. — Well, I cannot see any use in piling obligatiims upon these people, 
 they have tried the oil factory but it has not been successful. 
 
 Mr. AimsTKONf;.- -Well, but here, take the two canneries up here, are you going to 
 make them go to the expense of getting scows and taking it out to the deep water when 
 they might be making good use of it ? Now, that Frenchman down there who has been 
 running the oil factory, he says it pays. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(JiNS. — But how dues he know ? Tom Ladner says it does not pay, he is 
 very positive about it and he ought to know if any one does, for he ad\anced the money, 
 I understand. How would the Frenchman know anything about the financial part of 
 the scheme ? 
 
 Mr. AinisTKOXG. — Well, of course, the prohibition of putting in offal is a thing that 
 is law now anyway, so whatever we do it will siniply be a i-econnnendation to t\w 
 Minister. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I am sorry our Secretary has not had time to get the evidence of 
 ^fr. Arthur written up, his statement and the evidence given by that delegation that 
 came up from Ladner's was to my mind very conclusive. 
 
 Mr. HiofilNS. — Well, I dont think so at all, it is a very dirty hole down there any- 
 way. 
 
 3lr. WiLMOT. — Then we had a very sensible man in Victoria who in giving his 
 evidence stated that he had left the place (the Delta) on account of the injury from this 
 offal. 
 
 Mr. HiGfiiNs. — Well, he left his boys there anyway. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Well, gentlemen, let us get down to the point, of couise you know 
 my opinions pretty well, I think this should not be allowed to ho thrown into the water 
 at all. r would be very sori'v to give any opinion that would militate against the can- 
 ners, but I have had several convi-rsatictiis with representative cannerymen, Mr. Wad- 
 hams, Ml'. English, anil seveial others ; and I ha\e said this country is getting more 
 populated all the while, and you had better make .some arrangement about this offal 
 before you are actually forceil to, but they will not take any steps as long as they are 
 allowed to go on as they have been doing. Then our cod fishermen say the offal ami 
 entrails of fish put in the water spoilt their fishing grounds and so they bring them 
 ashore now and bury tliem. Then again we have the e\idence right here in Vancouver 
 Harbour, that the offal thrown in from an oil factory, offal of herring, etc., has driven the 
 herring away from the haibour altogether. Now tlies<' are glaring examples and should 
 be thought over. 
 
ey say, mucli 
 
 ivould do no 
 . allow. 
 
 ig justice to 
 dog-fish are 
 put up oils, 
 lade ? 
 
 t pay. Mr. 
 
 ice states lie 
 you for ,*;10 
 veiy pi-otit- 
 «ing they do 
 ting, I don't 
 irown away. 
 
 s eaten up. 
 
 )«,ck again, 
 ^tting rid of 
 
 hese people, 
 
 ^ou going to 
 water when 
 ho has been 
 
 t pay, he is 
 the money, 
 cial part of 
 
 I thing that 
 ion to the 
 
 evidence of 
 gation that 
 
 1 then 
 
 any- 
 
 giving his 
 y from this 
 
 you know 
 ) tlie water 
 it the can- 
 Mi-. Wad- 
 jting more 
 : this offal 
 IS they are 
 ! ollal and 
 )ring them 
 V^ancouver 
 (h'iven tlie 
 md should 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 423 
 
 Mr. Armstrono. — And if you take this ofial all out into deep water after a time 
 you will soon have no salmon at all ct)miiig in here. 
 
 Mr. HiGOiNS. — How about the quantities of dead sahiion uj) the river, is not that 
 just as bad, or rather infinitely worse ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — -VV'ell, gentlemen, 1 think there is no use discussing tlie matter 
 further. I think, Mr. Higgins, you will have to be in a minority in this. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiNS. — Well, what is it y(ju propose ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — I will i-e-read the section. (Read over section 13.) 
 
 Mr. HifiGiNs. — What is the penalty now under the Statute for putting in this 
 offal 1 
 
 Mr. WiLMGT. — Not exceeding .$100 for each and every ofl'enc*'. I think, however, 
 the close of this section would mean t)nly tlie ordinary pcMialty coming under the general 
 penalties of the Act — not exceeding $:iO for each offence, but you see it means every 
 offence— it can be doubled as often as you like. It is really a (juestion in my mind 
 which penalty would apply — perhaps the f?20, because it could be renewed every time 
 the offal was thrown in. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iiNS.— You admit then^ is no possibility of burying the (iffal, T suppose. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh, yes ; it could not be buried — the only other way, 1 think, would 
 be to cremate i But the way I look at it, I think a small sum from each canner, say 
 $25 would erect an establishment for providing for this matter. 
 
 Mr. Huir.iNS. — Well, but you see here is the law (showing Fisheries Act Sec, 1.5) 
 — it can be buried aslK)re or put in prforated boxes — now these people havti been 
 simply carrying out the law. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. -Well, I must say I am not prepared to give an opinion on that 
 subject. 
 
 Mr. HniGiNS. — And the Act goes on to .say, "the Minister of >rarineaiul I'isheries 
 may exempt frcmi the operation of this subsection, wholly or partially, any stream or 
 streams in resp/ect to which he considers that its enforcement is not r(M(uisite in the 
 public interest." (Sec. 15, ss. 2.) 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT.— Oh, yes; he can do that, ;..id if your j)olitical I'epresentatives can 
 bring sufficient influence to bear upon him, why we cannot do anything, but as far as we 
 are concerned, we must give our opinion irrespective of that. Now, what do you say, 
 gentlemen, is this clause of our report carried 'I 
 
 Mr. Arakstrgng. — Wait a moment, don't be iti a hurry — let us see what tlus law 
 says. 
 
 I don't think this peiforated box applies to the fisheries of the Fraser River —I 
 think it applies to the deep-sea fisheries of course, you must understand that this is 
 simply a recommendation to the Minister, and T would not recommend anything that I 
 did not think could be carried out. 
 
 Mr. Wir.MOT. — Then the resolution stands Yea? 
 
 Mr. Armstkon);. Yes. 
 
 Mr. HuiGiNS. — No, I do not agree to it — I say that the offal .should be thrown into 
 the swift water of the river so as to float out to sea. 
 
 14. That it woukl be expedient for the im|)rov('ment of the fisheries in l>ritish 
 Columbia that additional fish, hatcheries to the one now in existence should i)e built in 
 well selected localities on the upper branches of the Fraser River the evidence before 
 this Commission being largely given in this line. 
 
 Mr. HlfKiiNS. — Unanimous — 1 was simply delighted with the hatchery when I 
 went up to see it and I hav(^ never ceased to tell people what a splendid thing it is. I 
 tell you it optnied my eyes. 
 
 Mr. Armstro.ng. — Yes, unanimous — we w.>iit more of them. 
 
 1"). That the great desti'uction of herring now practised to su]iply a few crude 
 oileries on the coast and elsewiiere should be preNcntinl by departmental enactments and 
 thus avoid the too great and rapid (le[)Ietion of an important facti>r as bait for cai'rying 
 on deep-sea fisheries of the British Colunil)ia coast in the future. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNH.- Well, you will havi^ to count me cut of that, because I have not .seen 
 any evidence on that point, and cannot give any opinion. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, what do you say, Mr. Armstrong'? 
 
424 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 in 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — AVell, T think that is quite right — I don't think the herring 
 should 1)0 destroyed for the oil alone. 
 
 ATr. WiLMOT. — And you, Mr. Higgins, defer your opinion not having read the evi- 
 dence. 
 
 Mr. HiGGixs. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 16. That the halibut fisheries on the coast of British Columbia, now assuming 
 great importance from the successes which have attended the catches lately niade and 
 their introduction into the markets of Boston and elsewhere on the Atlantic coast, 
 demand the husbanding care of the Government for the advancement of this new in- 
 dustry, which bids fair to give additional wealth to the inhabitants of British Columbia. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiN's. — All I'ight — yes, I agree to that. 
 Mr. WiLAioT.— And you, Mr. Armstrong? 
 Mr. Armstrong.— Yes, that is (piite all right. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — There is no doubt your halibut fisheiy is destined to be of great 
 value here ; your fish are so sweet and luscious. 
 
 17. That the inclination on the part of th» fishermen is to increase the killing 
 capacity of the drift net by giving it greater depth than appears necessaiy foi' fairly 
 legitimate fishing, and as the depth as shown now varies fnmi 30 to 60 meshes ; and in 
 order to place all fishermen upon the same footing in their fishing operations, and to 
 guard against the too excessive destruction of the sahnon, the drift net for st)ckeyes 
 should be limited to a depth not exceeding 50 meshes. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;(iiNS. — Whut is the depth now? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — They run from 30 to 50 meshes, practically making them a seine 
 for all intents and purposes. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. -Are not most of them 40 meshes deep now? 
 
 iNIr. WiLMOT. — -Well, nt), I think not. I may mention the reason I put this clause 
 in is because T got a letter from our inspector of fisheries this morning, and it seems the 
 fishermen feel very much on this point. You see, a fisherman starts down with a 60- 
 mesh net, and he floats down to whei-e others have only 35 or 40 meshes, and so one 
 will have 20 feet of net in depth and the other only 10, so you see the advantage of the 
 one is obvious. Now, with a limit of 50 meshes they will be fishing with an equality of 
 16 feet of net and will all be on the same footing. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — Yes ; but I have heard no evidence on that — would it not be better 
 to say the limit shall not exceed 50 meshes ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, I have that in now. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — 8till, that is another point upon which T cannot give an opinion 
 without further information. When do you leave, ]Mr. Wilmot 1 
 
 Mr. Wilmot.— Well, just as soon as I can get away. 
 
 Ml'. Higgins. — Oh, well, theie will be two or three points upon which I can write 
 you. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. —What is the length of the net now ? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — 150 fathoms. 
 
 Mr. Hi(if;iNS. — What aie the nets in the east? 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Oh, well, they fish with nets 6 feet deep generally. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;(iiNS. — Well, I will be able to write you on this, after I have looked over 
 the evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilmot. — Well, what do you say, Mr. Armstrong? 
 
 jSIr. AiiMSTRONfi. — Well, I have no objection to it, as I think the majority of nets 
 are 40 meslies now. 
 
 Mr. Hkjgins. — I defer my judgment — well, call it 60 meshes and I will vote for it 
 now off" hand. 
 
 Mr. Armstron*;. — I don't think the canners will u.se those long nets, only the 
 greedy ft'llows that want to fish for the spring fish. I will go in for 50 meshes. 
 
 Mr. Higgins. — Well, T will defer my opinion until I have looked over the evidence 
 on the matter. Of course, you will understaiul T have not had the same oppoi'tunity of 
 hearing all the evidence as you two gentlemen have, and am, therefore, on many little 
 points somewhat in the dark. 
 
the herring 
 3ad the evi- 
 
 ^niade and 
 
 in tic coast, 
 
 liis new iu- 
 
 Columbia. 
 
 e of great 
 
 tlie killing 
 ■ for faiily 
 es ; and in 
 m.s, and to 
 r st>ckeyes 
 
 em a seine 
 
 this clause 
 b seems the 
 with a GO- 
 and so one 
 ige of the 
 ecjuality of 
 
 t be better 
 
 m opinion 
 
 oaii write 
 
 )ked over 
 
 ;y of nets 
 
 ote for it 
 
 only the 
 
 evidence 
 tunity of 
 my little 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 425 
 
 18. That doubts having arisen with regard to the actual meaning of subsection 8 
 of section 8, chapter 9"). of the llevised Statutes of Canada, it is desirable, in the interests 
 of river fishing in British Columbia, with reference to leaving portions of the river free 
 from fishing, that not more than one-third of the liver should l)e left open. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Now, we have laid over some maoters. 
 
 Mr. HifUiiNs. — VV^ell, the tii'st part of section 7 I will have to look over before lean 
 give an opinion, also section 8 and sections 11, 15 and 17. 
 
 Mr. Wu"" — Now, what other matters have you to bring up? 
 
 Mr. Armstkono. — About the dog-tish. 
 
 Mr. Hir.(!ixs. -Well, while we are on the salmon fisheiy, let us undei-stand, if pos- 
 sible about the channel of the river. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. - Oh, yes; you say that doubts having arisen as to the meaning of 
 the Statute as to keeping open one-third of the channel ? Subsection 8 of section 8 of 
 the Fisheries Act — now it is desirable, in the interests of liver fishing in British Colum- 
 
 bia, with reference to leavint; 
 
 free from fishing. 
 
 that not more 
 
 la, witn reterence to leaving portions or the river 
 than one-third of the river should be left open 1 
 
 Ml-. HuioiNH. — Yes ; that will fetch it. 
 
 Mr. Akms'I'KONo. — Yes ; not more than one-third. 
 
 Mr. HifJciNH. — Now, Mr. Armstrong, the dog-fish. 
 
 Mr. Armstuonu. — Yes; T want to prevent the killing of dog-tish for the livers 
 only. 
 
 Mr. HuiOixs.- -Do they kill many ? 
 
 Mr. ARMSTRONfi. — Oh, yes ; they get thousands of gallons of oil every year, and 
 they just take the livers out of the fish and thidw the body of the fish on the bank. 
 
 Mr. HififiiNS. -What do they use it for — that is the oil ? 
 
 Mr. Armstkono. — For lubi'icating purposes ; it is used very much in the saw-mills, 
 etc. It is very much like the salmon oil, l)ut if they want U> use the fish for oil they 
 should use all the fish. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(ii\s. — But could they not make manure of the rest of it 1 
 
 Mr. Armstronc. — Yes. 
 
 Mr. HicdiNS. -But it has never paid 1 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — ^Oh, but they should throw that ofl'al in the deep water. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i<iiNS.--What do they do with it? 
 
 Mr. Arm-stronc. — They throw it on the bank and leave it theie. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, now, see if this will suit your idea : 
 
 1. That the system now prevailing along the coast of killing vast (juantities of dog- 
 fish expi'essly for the use of the livers of said fish for oil purposes only should be discon- 
 tinued, unle.ss the bodies of these fish aie utilized in the same manner. 
 
 Mr. Hici(;i\s.^ — Yes ; that is all right. 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Yes ; that will cover it first rate. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, sir,s, what next? 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — Well, we have provided for the canners, the freezers, the ex- 
 porters of fresh fish in ice and the fishermen, but have we provided for the salteis of 
 salmon ? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Yes; 1 was thinking of them — they ought to come in the list too, I 
 think. 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS. — Ye.s. 
 
 Mr. ARMSTRONG.^The thing is now whether we should encourage the salting of fish 
 when there is such a demand for the fre.sh fish. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, there are per.sons engaged in that line, are there not 1 
 
 Mr. Armstrong. — T don't think there is any one engaged in it here unless when 
 there is a surplus of fish. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Well, say we give them one license -my own impressi<in is no one 
 will go into the business of salting fish unless they cannot do anything else with them — 
 it is generally an inferior article, salt fish of any kind. 
 
 Mr. Armstron<!. — Well, rather than have any trouble, if a man is going to make a 
 business <»f it he should yet two licenses anvwav. 
 

 426 
 
 MAR1NB AND FISHERIES. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — ^Well, but the parties who will apply for them then will be the 
 freezers. 
 
 Mr. HuJoiNs. — But do not some of these canneries salt S(»metime8 ? 
 
 Mr. AKM.sTH()N(i. — They do when they have an over-plus of tish. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;(iiNs. — \V«'ll, I think any one making a special business of it, either salters 
 or smokers, should have a couple of licenses, but not to smokers or salters — not two to 
 a man b'^cause he is a .salter and two more because he is a smoker, say Salter and smoker 
 to each. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Very well, we will say two each to salters and^smokers — now, how 
 does this read ? 
 
 20. That salters and smokeis of Hsh who carry on this specialty in (luring tish for 
 domestic or fort'i;,'n markets, and not enj^'agcd in the fishing bu.sine.ss in any other way, 
 may be entitled to obtain two licenses upon the payment of a fee for each license of !$20. 
 
 Mr. HicciN.s. — Yes ; that suits it all right. 
 
 Mr. Ai{MSTRON(i. — Yes. 
 
 Mr. WiLMor. -Now, none can complain that they did not all have a chance. 
 
 Mr. AKMSTHoN(i. — Now, there is another point whicii I suppose comes within our 
 province to speak about, viz. : the number of guardians on the river. I think there 
 should be anotiier steam launch and that there should be sufficient additional guardians 
 to properly enforce the law. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. Oh, yes ; that isapointon which we may very well express our-selves 
 — a very important one too. How will this suit : - 
 
 21. That a suggestion is made to the department, for the advisability for further 
 I)rotection of the fisheries, that a sufficient number of additional guardians should be 
 appointed to enfoi-ce the fishery laws. 
 
 Now, is that unanimously agreed to ? 
 
 Mr. HiGGiNS.— Yes. 
 
 Mr. AimsTKONci.- Yes. 
 
 Ml'. Wii.MOT.— Now, gentlemen, what next? 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(iixs. — AVell, I would recc inmend that we suggest to the department the 
 propriety of introducing shad and lol)sti'r to these Pacific waters. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Hear, iiear. 
 
 Mr. Akmsthoxg. — Well, befoie we leave the Fraser River, T think we should recom- 
 mend that nieasuH's be taken to get the spawn for the hatcheiies out of the early runs 
 of fish. I think taking tiicni from the late fisii is the reason why we are getting later 
 runs of fish every year. I may, of course, be wrong, it is a theoiy of mine. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. — Would this covei' both sockeye and spring salmon? 
 
 Mr. AuM.sTKON'cj. — Well, you are only cultivating the sockeye as y< t, but if the other 
 fish are to be cultivated, I think it should also apply to them I think you would have 
 moi'e chance of getting better fish and earlier runs. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — Then, will this recommendation cover it ? 
 
 2l'. That it is expedient in the interests of tiie Fraser Uiver fisheries that the early 
 runs of the (piinnat and sockeye salnifm should be captured from which to obtain their 
 ova foi- artificial l)reeding in the hatcheries. 
 
 Mr. AnMSTHONO. — Yes ; that covers it. 
 
 Mr. Hiiiiiix.s. Yes ; but do you consider the .spring .salmon a desirable fish? 
 
 Mr. AuMHTHONci. — Oh well, it covers both of them. 
 
 Mr. Wn.MoT. Yes ; s'ome peojile say they want the sockeye and then many say 
 they want the sjjring salmon- the freezers, for insstance. 
 
 iNIr. Hi(i(;iNS. - Does it take more capital to set up a freezer than a cannery? 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. Well, that is a (juestion you see if they go into this business 
 extensively they will have to get vessels pi'ovided with cold storage, etc., and it will be a 
 very costly matter. 
 
 Mr. AuMHTUO\(i. — Well, now, Mi-, lliggins, you were about suggesting something 
 when I interrupted you. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(;iNs. — Oh yes : about the lob.ster and shad. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. -Yes ; you think they should be introduced on this coast? — A. I 
 think that is a j;o(k1 idea. 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY 0OMMI8SION. 
 
 A2H 
 
 Mr. Hl(i(!iNS. — ^Well don't yi i think it would have .some effect? 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — ^Oh yes ; I think so decidedly. 
 
 Mr. Skchktarv. — Then; is jii.st one nifitter j,'entlenien, if I nuiy remind you oi it, I 
 don't think you have any reconnnendation about oyster.s yet. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MOT. — That is a good idea, however, I had a note of it. 
 
 Mr. Hi(J(iiNS. — ^Well, you had better include the reference to oysters in the same 
 resolution refj;arding the shad and lobster. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — All rigiit ; well now, how will this do? 
 
 23." That the introduction of shad, oysters and lobsters into the waters of IVitish 
 Columbia from the Atlantic coast, is most desirable, and that the Department of 
 Fisheries be recjuested to institute such means as will bring about this m<)st desirable 
 enterprise. 
 
 Mr. Hkjc.ins. Hear, hear, that will cover it. 
 
 Mr. AinisTKONd. - Yes that is all right. 
 
 Mr. Wii.MoT. - Hut we have not saitl a word about oyster culture here. 
 
 Mr. Hi(i(aNS. —Oh, well, I think that is j)retty well covered if tlien^ sire any other 
 little points you may add them. 
 
 Mr. WiLMOT. — Oh well, but it will just take a minute — now how will this read : — 
 
 24. That whereas the native oyster is found in some; localities along the Hritish 
 Columbian coast and as they ai-e becoming rapidly decimated by the action of a few 
 fishermen and Indians regardless of consecjuences, it is desirai)le thai the Fisheries 
 department should take speedy action to prevent their extermination by establishing 
 proper close seasons and encouraging persons who may be desirous of entering into the 
 business of oyster culture. 
 
 Mr. Hi(;oiNs. — Yes ; that will do iirst rate. 
 
 Mr. AinisTuoNO. — Yes. 
 
 Mr. WiL.MOT. — Then gentlemen, do you all agree to these as our reconnneiulations and 
 our report — these recommendations from 1 to '21 inclusive, that we have just gone over? 
 
 Mr. HlooiNs. — Yes; except those sections or clauses which I am to consider and 
 give my opinion after reading more evidence than I have done as yet, etc. 
 
 Mr. Wilniot, Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Jliggins then duly signed tiie report in the 
 order named. 
 
 The Chairman declared the Conunission finally adjourned at (i p.m. 
 
 CHARLES F. WINTER, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 RRITISH COLUMBIA FLSHKRIES COMMISSION. 
 
 FIN.\L KKPOKT. 
 
 In the matter of the Royal Fisheries Conunission, duly appointed by the Dominion 
 Govermnent of Canada, for investigating into matters relating to the; salmon tislieries of 
 the Fi'asei' River, and likewise the salmon and other fisheries of the })i()vince of British 
 Columbia, said Commission being composed of the Honoui'al)le I). \V. Higgins, of 
 Victoria ; Mr. Sheriff Armstrong, of New Westminster, and Sanuiel \\'ilniot. of < )ttawa. 
 
 Evidence being taken under oath from numerous parties in relation to the subject 
 of the fisheries at the cities of New Westminster, Victoria, Vancouver and Nanaimo, 
 the following conclusions have been come to on the subjecits contained in the several 
 pai'agiaphs herein, which are numerically wj'itten, and are i-econnnended for adoption by 
 thf Fish(M'ies Di'pai-tment of Canada, for tlu^ conservation and maintenance of the lishing 
 industries of tlu; provincts of British Cohnnbia. Tlu! recommendations are as follows: — 
 
 1. That each canning establishment, actually carrying on the canning industry, 
 shall be entitled to receive eighteen (IS) boat licenses to fish as its maximum numiwr, 
 and that the fee payable for each such license shall be .'?L*0. 
 
 Ayes — Messrs. Armstrong and Wilniot ; Nay — Mr. Higgins (retpiiiing twenty-five 
 licenses). 
 
 Carried — eighteen boats. 
 
 • (Sd.) s. w., 
 
 C/i(i!riit(in. 
 
 A 
 
428 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 I' 
 
 m 
 
 ■f ,' 
 
 2. TImt eaeli freezing establishment, actually engaged in the freezing and expci't- 
 ing of Hsh, shall he entitled to obtain not exceeding seven (7) licenses, and that the fee 
 for each license shall he )?lJO. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. \V., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 3. That each establishment engaged in the actual business of shipping or ex])orting 
 fish in ice, or otherwise, but not in the manner of freezing or canning, sliall l)o entitled 
 to obtain iu)t exceeding three (3) licenses, at a fee of $20 each license. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Cfiairninn. 
 
 4. That each and every local trader or dealer in fish for home consumption, in 
 cities, towns, or country, actually engaged in such traffic, shall be entitled to obtain not 
 exceeding two {'2) licenses, at a fee of 820 each license. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 C /mini) an. 
 
 5. That alWwMf/_^'rff^ fishermen, l)eing British subjects and actual residents of the 
 prf)vince, shall be entitled to obtain one (1) license to fish, upon payment of the sum of 
 $20 for such license. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 6. Tli.»t every actual resident settler (with his family residing with him), shall be 
 entitled to obtain one (1) license to fi^h, upon payment of 82 for the same, and shall be 
 permitted to fish in any of the waters of British Columbia, except in any prescribed 
 limits at the mouths of i-ivers, or streams, or during the close times — every such settler 
 shall be a British subject, and such license will only permit of fishing for family use, 
 but not for sale or barter. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 7. That the regular annual close time for salmon fishing in any of the rivers or 
 streams of British Colundna, shall be from the 1st October to the 1st March following 
 in every year. 
 
 That the weekly close time for fishing for salmon or other fish in the waters of 
 British Columbia shall be from 6 o'clock a.m., on every Saturday till 12 oclock mid- 
 night on the following Sunday. 
 
 On the 1st paragraph of above section : 
 
 Ayes. — Messrs. Armstiong and Wilmot. 
 
 Mr. Higgins not having had an oi)[)ortunity of going over all the evidence, and 
 not being present at many of the sessions of the Connnission, deferred his opinion on 
 the paragiaph until he had time to consider it. 
 
 The 2nd paragraph was agreed to unanimously. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 8. That the limitation for the size of mesh of salmon nets and ^he period in which 
 such sized nets shall be used, shall be as follows : 
 
ind export- 
 hat the fee 
 
 rman. 
 
 ' exporting 
 be entitled 
 
 rman. 
 
 inption, in 
 obtain not 
 
 rman. 
 
 nits of the 
 the Sinn of 
 
 rmati. 
 
 >), shall he 
 (1 shall be 
 prescribed 
 icli settler 
 'amily use, 
 
 'man. 
 
 B rivers or 
 . following 
 
 ( waters of 
 ilock raid- 
 
 ence, and 
 opinion on 
 
 •man. 
 in which 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION 
 
 429 
 
 A net with a T^^-inch mesh for capturing spring salmon, to lie used from Maich 1st 
 to August ir)th. A net with a mesh not less than r)|-incli mesh for so keye, cohoc, or 
 other salmon, may be used only between the 1st July and the 1st Octobei'. The allove 
 meshes are extension measure. 
 
 Yeas. — Messrs. Armstrong and W'ilmot. 
 
 Mr. Higgins deferred juc'gment until he had time to read the evidence. 
 
 (Sd.) s. w.. 
 
 C/ni 
 
 irnian. 
 
 9. Tiiat all licenses so obtained shall not be transfei-able under any conditions 
 whatever, without the consent in writing from the Department of Fisheries. 
 Unanimously ngreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 ClmiriiKin. 
 
 10. That the tidal boundaries for all or any fishing for commercial purposes con- 
 ted with canning, freezing or t^xix.iting of salmon, shall be at Pitt Kivci', and at a 
 ? across the Fraser River at Whonriack Creek. Above these two points on the Pitt 
 
 nected 
 line 
 
 and Fraser Rivers, netting or fishing for connnercial purposes, as above described, is 
 forbidden. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Cltairnidti. 
 
 11. The use of seines for capturing fish of any description is wholly forbidden at 
 the mouths of all rivers or streams within cei-tain limits thei-eof, as may be laid down 
 by the Department of Fisheries. 
 
 Yeas. -Messrs. Armsti'ong and AVilmot. 
 
 Mr. Fliggins i-eserved his judgment until he had time '.o obtain furthei- information 
 on the subject. 
 
 12. That there shall be no discrimination with regar o \.\\v. numbei's of licenses 
 nor the fees payabh; for the same, for canners, or others, throughout the waters of 
 British Columbia. 
 
 Yeas.-- Messrs. Aiinstiong and Wilmot. 
 
 Mr. Higgins thinks a discrimination in favour of the northern canneries should be 
 made. 
 
 (Sd.) 
 
 s. w., 
 
 Chairman, 
 
 113. That the throwing of fish otl'al or dead fish, .saw-dust, mill rubbish, or any 
 deleterious substance into the livers, or otiiei' waters fre(iuented by fish is alike injurious 
 to these waters, and to th(! inhabitants residing along tlu^ same ; and therefore the laws 
 relating to tlu" prevention of offal and deleterious substances being thrown into such 
 watei's should be enforcoid in the interests of the connnunity at large. 
 
 Yeas. — Messi's. Armstrong and Wilmot. 
 
 Nay.- Mr'. Higgins, who suggest that offal should be thr-own into the swift water 
 of f;he river to float out into the sea. 
 
 (Sd.) 
 
 s. w., 
 
 C/n(iriii((n. 
 
 14. That it would be expedient for the improvement of the fishei'ies in Ri-itish 
 Columbia that additional fish liatcliei'ies to the one now in existence should be built in 
 well selected localities on the upper br'anches of the Fr-aser Rivei' — the evidence before 
 this Commission being lai'gely given in this line. % 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. * 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Cltairiiiati. 
 
■W 
 
 Vff'^ 
 
 430 
 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 15. That the great destructinn of herring now practised to HUj)ply ii f(!W crude 
 cileries on tlio coast and elsewhere, should he prevented hy departmental enactments, 
 and thus avoid tlie too great and rapid depletion of an imjtortant factor as halt for 
 carrying on the deep-sea fisheries of the British Colundjian coast in tiie future. 
 
 Yeas. -Messrs. Armstrong mid Wilniot. 
 
 Mr. Higgins defers an opinion, not having read tlie evidence. 
 
 (Sd.^ S. W., 
 
 Chairtnmi, 
 
 IG. Tliat the halibut fisheries (m tlie coast of British Columhia, now assuming great 
 importance fr<»ni the successes wliioh have attended the catches lately made and their 
 introduction into the markets of Boston and elsewhere on the Atltintic coast, demand 
 the husbanding care of the (jioverinnent for the advancement of this new industry, which 
 bids fiir to give additional wealth to the inhabitants of British Columbia. 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) 8. W., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 17. That the inclination (m the part of the fishermen is to increase the killing 
 capacity of the drift net by giving it greatei' depth than appears necessary for fairly 
 legitimate fishing, and as the depth as shf>wn now vai'ies from 30 to 60 meshes ; and in 
 order to place all fishermen up(m the same footing in their fishing operations, and to 
 guard against too excessive destruction of the salmon — the drift net for sockeye should 
 be limited to a depth not exceeding oO meshes. 
 
 Yeas. — Messrs. Armstrong .and Wilm()t. 
 
 Mr. Higgins tlefers his judgment till evidence is read. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 C/iair»ian. 
 
 'f?l 
 
 18. That doubts having ai-isen with regard to the actual meaning of subsection 8, 
 of section 8, chapter 95, of the Revised Statutes of Canada, it is desirable in the interests 
 of river fishing in British Columbia, with reference to leaving portions of the river free 
 from fishing, that not more than one-third of the river should be left open. 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. AV., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 li). That the system now prevailing along the coast of killing vast numbers of dog- 
 fish expressely for the use of the livers of said fish for oil purposes only, should be dis- 
 continued, uidess the bodies of these fish are utilized in the same manner. 
 Umvnimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 20. That salters and smokers of fish who carry on this specialty in curing fish for 
 domestic or foreign markets, and not engaged in the fishing business in any other way, 
 may be entitled to obtain two licenses upon the payment of a fee of ^20 for each license. 
 
 L'nanimouslv agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. W., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 21. That a suggestion is made to the Department for the advisability for further 
 protection of the fisheries, that a sufiicient number of additional guardians should be 
 appointed to enfoi-ce the fisheiy laws. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) s. w.. 
 
 Chairman. 
 
\ 
 
 BRITISH COLUMBIA FIHHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 431 
 
 22. That it is expedient in tlu' iiitorests of tlic Fniscr Itivor {isln'fies tliiit tlio t'lirly 
 runs of tlie (|uinnat tiiul .sorkt'yo salnmn shuulil un ca[)tui'L'(l from wliicti to obtain tlieir 
 ova for artiticial hrt'cdin;,' in the hatciu'ries. 
 Unanimously iij^rwd to. 
 
 (Stl.) S. W., , 
 
 Ch(iir»ian. 
 
 2.*?. That tlie introduction of shad, oysters and lobsters into tlic waters of IJritish 
 Colund)ia from the Athmtie coast is most desii'al)lo, and that the Department of I'^ish- 
 eries be re<|ue8ted to institute such means as will brin;; about this most desirable 
 enterprise. 
 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) s. \v., 
 
 C/inirman. 
 
 24. That wher<!as the i ative oysters is found in some localities alonj,' the Hiitish 
 Columbian coast, and as they are becoming lapidly decimated by the action of a few 
 fishermen and Indians regardless of consiMpienees, it is desirable that the Fisheries De- 
 partment should take speedy action to i)revent their extermination by establishing 
 proper close .seasons and encouraging ])ersons wlio may be desiious of < iitering into the 
 business of oyster culture. 
 Unanimously agreed to. 
 
 (Sd.) S. \V., 
 
 C/iairman. 
 
 The above sections, fnnn 1 to 24, were duly cMmsidered by tliis Commission, and 
 the records of their unanimous a '.option, or otherwise, is Jigreed to by the Commissioners 
 by their signatures which are hereto attached. 
 
 (Sd.) SAML. WlLMTr, ('/inirmon. 
 (Sd.) W. .1. ARMSTi{()N(i, 
 (Hd.) I). \V. HKUUNS. 
 
 Witnessed by 
 
 (Sd.) CHARLES F. WINTER, 
 
 Secrefitri/. 
 
 New Westminster, B.C., 19th March, 1892. 
 True copy of oi'iginal document. 
 
 CHARLES F. WINTER, 
 
 Si'crrtitrjf B. C. Fislu'rij Ciinnnnfium. 
 
 f? 
 
 MINORITY REPORT. 
 
 • . . . 
 
 The following minority report was subse(|uently submitted by Mr. Comnussioner 
 
 Higgins :-— 
 
 To the Honourable CiiAitLKS H. Tuppkh, 
 
 Minister of Marine and Fisheries, 
 Ottawa. 
 
 Sir, — As a member of the fishery connnission which lately sat and took evidence 
 in this province, I beg most respectfully to call your attention to the fact that on at 
 least two essential points I am at variance with my brother commissioners. jNIy objec- 
 tions are noted at the foot of the respective pai'agra{)hs in the finding of the commission. 
 
 J3efore proceeding to state these objections, I cainiot nsfrain from expressing regret 
 that much valuable information bearing on the offal (|uestion was shut out by a majority 
 vote of the commission, and consecjuently does not appear on the minutes of the pro- 
 ceedings. I felt the disappointment the more keenly for the reason that owing to olHcial 
 duties retjuiring my presence in the capital T was unable to be present when some of the 
 evidence was taken. I have therefore been comi)elled to rely more particulaily upon 
 my own experience and observations and the evidence of medical men which I was 
 fortunate enough to hear, to assist me in arriving at a conclusion as to the elll'cts on 
 the public health of the deposit of offal in the rivers of the province. 
 
"ST 
 
 A 
 
 4H2 
 
 MAItlNE AND FISHERIES. 
 
 I 
 
 111 my npinitdi the mt'dical tcstiiimny docs not siip|H)rt Mr. WilmotH report of I8{)0, 
 nor (lot'K it justify the Htidinj,' of a iimjority of the coiiiiuission. As you will have an 
 oppoi'tunity of examining that evidence for yourself, I shall not refer to it at j^reater 
 length. 
 
 So fur as my own observation went of the condition of things along the line of the 
 slough at Lander's on the Kiasci- jJivcr, I am strongly of opinion tlial^ the several cascis 
 of typhoid which occurred there last yt ir arc attril)utal»le to the drinking of the slough 
 water by the iid)ai)itants, said water being poisoned by the drainage from olo.s«ts, 
 kitchens and stables situated along the banks. I had a map prepared of tlu! slougli and 
 its surroundings. This map was laid i)cfoi'c the counnission at \'ancou\i'r, sworn to, and 
 banded to .Mr. Winter for incorporation with the ndnute.s. I'pon referring to this map 
 you will observe that forty-five establishments, including two hotels, discharge their 
 sewerage into this slough. Ft is worthy of remark that typhoid was most pi'cvalent in 
 IS'JI, and that during that sea.son the Delta C'onijiany, which has its cannery at the 
 n;outh of the slough, dcposit('d no oll'al in the rivei'. i)ut sent it away to an oilery to be 
 conveitcd into oil and aanuic. <>idy on one occasion during the season of IS!M did 
 any olVal reach the slough, and then by the aci'idental collapse of the canniMy floor. 
 This was (|uickly repaiied, and no more went int(t tlu; rivei' from that cann(>ry. 
 
 While the connnission were at Lander's, [ procured a bottle of water from the slough. 
 The tide was nut, and the specimen was an exceedingly tine oM<!--for the purpose. In 
 colour it rc.seud)l(Hl strong paragori''. After being closely corked for three or four days 
 it emits a smell that is closely allied to decayed wood. Tn fact, the watei' llow.s from 
 the peat marshes of the l''raser, and is rendered moii^ injni'ious by the addition of s(!wt'r- 
 age from the forty-live establishments referred to aliove. As to its taste T can give no 
 report, as I did not venture to taste it in that way, but ^[i-. Wilmot, who drank a small 
 ]iorti<tn, pionounced it excellent. T would not venture to say that Mr. W'ilmot's ,ub- 
 setpient sickness could be attril)Ute(l to that draught of slough water, but is a remarkable 
 coincidence that, although in an excellent condition of health up to that time, upon my 
 return to the river a week later I found him scarcely recovered from a sevei-e attacl- 'of 
 illness. 
 
 I sulanitted my bottle of slough water for analysis y)y the Government Analyst *t 
 Victoria, and his report will be found among the minutes in ifr. Winter's possession. 
 
 .My conclusion i.^ that the water, even in its natural state, is unfit for use. ^^'hen 
 invaded by the sewerage mentioned, it becomes positively dangerous to life and should 
 not be druidv by man or liea'-t. For the condition of public health along the slough, I 
 think from the medical and other testimony and from })ei'Sf)nal en(|uiries, that the thi'oVv- 
 ing of offal into the river- is not responsii)l(', at least at Ladner's in the year 1S!)L I 
 can well understand, however, that the dejxisit of offal in lai'ge (piantities along the I'iver 
 banks is ofi'ensive to sight and smell, and cannot conduce to a good sanitary conditiwn. 
 l)Ut myriads of the fish after spawning in the trii)utaries of the main river die. Their 
 bodies lie festering along the banks until they disappear by tlu; gradual process of decay 
 or are carried along iiy a sudden I'ise of the river to find a resting jilac ■ at some othi'r 
 l)oint. The late Mr. Mowat i stimatcd that only from 5 to iM ))er cent of the salmon 
 that ascend the river to spawn return to the sea. Other authorities say that after a 
 .salmon lias spawned it has performed its mission and dies at once. 
 
 I am aware that Mr. NVilmot, i)asiiig his o[)inion on the characteristics of salmon 
 in eastern rivers, believes that the salmon lieif when not caught or destroyed by accident 
 or exhaustion, return to salt water. My own ob.servation extending over a period of 
 nearly^! years, leads me to the ojiinion that the li;ii)its of salmon of the Pacific coast 
 are not identical with those on the Atlantic siile, in this respect at least, and that few 
 if any go back to the sea. Howevei", it is admitted by all authorities that countless 
 numbers die in the upper streams and it is not ( laiined that the jiresence of so much 
 decaying matter in the water has an injurious effect on tin; health of the inhabitants. 
 ►Such being the ca^^e and having in view my experience with Ladner's .Slough water, I 
 could not arrive at the same conclusion as my bi" iher commissioners as to the evil effects 
 of the deposit of offal in the river, although a a matter of precaution it should not be 
 dumped near the shore but rather towed out in scows and deposited in the swift water 
 of the river, the tremendous current of wb Ai in the course of a few hours will sweep 
 
 / 
 
BRITISH COLUMBIA FISHERY COMMISSION. 
 
 433 
 
 , (.f IH!l(), 
 
 llllV(! nil 
 
 ,t gi'eatt^r 
 
 \u' of tho 
 M'lil ra,s(!S 
 li« h1ihij,'1i 
 
 1 C'l()S«'tS, 
 
 uu^^li and 
 n to, iiiiil 
 this map 
 rye tlu'ir 
 valfiit ill 
 'ly at tlid 
 vvy to 1m>. 
 bs<»l (lid 
 cry tlooi'. 
 
 Ill- slou<,'li. 
 |)(),s(\ In 
 t'oui' 'lays 
 lows from 
 
 of scvvcr- 
 1 jiivo no 
 ik a small 
 uot's ,iib- 
 iniai'kahlo 
 , npoii my 
 
 attail- 'of 
 
 alyst %t 
 ssion. 
 
 AVhcn 
 1 shoukl 
 oil-ill, 1 
 ■ tlirow- 
 Sl»l. I 
 he rivor 
 ulitinn. 
 Thpii- 
 of decay 
 )in(' other 
 almon 
 t after a 
 
 salmon 
 
 accident 
 
 )eriod of 
 
 itic coast 
 
 that few 
 
 countless 
 
 so much 
 
 abitants. 
 
 water, I 
 
 il effects 
 
 I not be 
 ift water 
 
 II sweep 
 
 •oi 
 
 such portions ua have not been dovoure<l by scavenger fish into the salt water where it 
 will speedily disappear. If the nets are occasionally fouled by tho of!al(and the evidence 
 shows that they are) the loss will fall on the canners and not on tho individual tislior- 
 nien. As the spawning grounds are many miles above the canneries they cannot bo 
 euntaminated by tin; deposit of offal in the river. 
 
 The entjuiry had not long proceeded before I became impressed with the belief tliat 
 the number of licenses issued should not be restricted : that all British subjects who 
 applied should be granted licenses, and that no person not actually engaged in fishing, 
 canning, or freezing should be licensed. This course, if adopted, will put an end to the 
 traffic in licenses which lias been carried on, and while tho individual fishermen will fie 
 amply j)rotected, tho canntT will not be at his mercy. 
 
 I do iKjt agree with the majority in prohibiting the use of the seines at tJie mouths 
 of all rivers, having Ijeen convinced l)y the evidence of experienced fishermen that on 
 some of the northern streams (notably the 3Iimpkish River and Low and Rivers' Inlet) 
 fish cannot be taken in any other way in su.Iicient numbers to make the business pro- 
 fitaljle. 8tres-, has been laid on the fact thau at Mimpkish last year only 600 ca<es were 
 put up, and it has been attempted to be shown that tho small catcli is attributable to 
 the use of the seine. But liow is the catch of 1890 (the largest since fishing beg.vn on 
 that river) accounted for, the seine having been used there for some ten or twelve years. 
 
 I am not in accord with my brother commissioners in their determination to fix ail 
 licenses at an uniform rate of $20, believing that some consideratiim should be shown to 
 tliQ northern canneries where no hatcheries have been established and where no expense 
 has been incurred by the government. On the Fraser River the government have made 
 a largo expenditure in propagating salmon and in protecting the fisheries and until 
 similar steps have been taken on the northern rivers it seems scarcely fair that the 
 license fee should be the same. 
 
 I submit that the present is not the time when onerous regulations should be placed 
 on the cannery business in this province. It is at present passing through a .severe 
 crisis, and I speak from knowledge obtained from the best authorities, when I say that 
 rp money has been made for the past two years by those engaged in tho pursuit. The 
 outlook for a market too is decidedly gloomy and the competition with the Alaskan 
 T>ack is so keen that should your department impose regulations that would add to the 
 t)urthen8 of our fishermen, the result would be disastrous. At this moment I hear that 
 in consequence of the bad state of the salmon market a' agreement has been come to by 
 the canners to pack only one-half the usual number of cases during the coming season. 
 As some $2,500,000 are invented in the busine.ss on Fraser River ahme, I leave you to 
 imagine the effect so short a pack will have on the trade of that part of the province. 
 
 It is to be regretted when we consider the magnitude of the interests involved tliat 
 the scope of 1»he inquiry was so limited, and that the time at the disposal of the Com- 
 mission did not admit of a more extended and exhaustive investigation. It would be a 
 still more regrettjible circumstance if, as the outcome of the Commission, regulations 
 should be imposed that would hamper the canners to an extent that would practically 
 drive the product from the English market. 
 
 I knov,' that I need not point out to you the necessity of fostering this most impor- 
 tant industry, and that you are keenly alive to all that concerns the welfare and 
 advancement of the various interests embraced in your department, and I feel sure that 
 the matters upon which I have ventured to touch may be safely left with you to adjust 
 on a basis which shall be fair to all. 
 
 In conclusion, I must place on record my unqualified admiration at the grand results 
 that have attended the establishment of nalmon hatcheries here, and cannot help expres- 
 sing the hope that the usefulness of that important branch will be extended in every 
 possible way, so that every stream in the province shall enjoy the benefits that would 
 certainly flow from the adoption of this most enlightened policy. 
 
 I have the honour to be, sir, yours obediently, 
 
 (Sd.) D. W. HIGGINS. 
 
 Victoria, B.C., 
 lOc— '8 
 
 29th March, 1892.