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I i
AS
th.
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Sv
a.
an-^^
(o^
DIALOGUES .^, ^
ALGERNON NEWWAYS AND SAMUEL OLDPATHS,
IN WHICH, ATTENDANCE AT
CLASS MEETINGS
AS A CONDITION OP CHURCH MEMBERSHU', 18 SHOWN TO BE BOTH WESLEVAN AND
.SCRII-TURAL, AND THE RELATION OP CHILDREN TO THE VISIBLE CHURCH
OP CHRIST, IS EXPLAINED AND VINDICATED
BY REV. JOHN BORLAND,
J««rtl)otjfst iWrnfstcv,
I !
1 i
" Thus saith the Lord, stand ye in the ways, and sf>e. and ask for the old paths, win o is
the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall tuid rest for your souls."- Jerenuah.
" My son, fear thou the Lord, and -meddle not with them that are given to cliange."-Sol.
f 0t0na:
FEINTED BY JOHN- DONOGH.
1856.
. =!>^~'f^tmmm^ms
X .
f
'WIM
DIALOGUES
ALGER
? 4; ^ i^ c A
NON NEWWAYS AND SAME
UEL OLDPATHS,
IN WHICH, ATTENDANCK AT
CLASS MEETINGS
wiS A CONDITION OP CUUUOH MEMBf.USUir, IS SHOWN TO BE BOTH WE8LEYAN AND
BCRIPTCRAL, AND THE UKLATION OF CHILDREN TO THE VISIBLE CHURCH
OF CUKIdT, IS EXl'IiAlNED AND VINDICATED
BY REV. JOHN BORLAND,
J«etf)olifst ifWrnfsttt,
'• Thus sahh the Lord, stand ye in iho ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is
t)!f. good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls."— Jeremiah.
" My son. fear thou the Lord, und~medd'c not with then that are given to change."— Sol.
PRINTED FOR THE AUTHOR,
1856. :.,-
jfljg'
A^^' "^
; %%
SEP 2 1956
PUEFACE.
The efforts which have recently been made to
create a change in the Discipline of our Church, in
reference t<» attendance on Class-Meetings as a Con-
dition t. C< I!! rch Membership, are known not only
to ail wi iiin its prde, but even to many beyond it.
Ibo, ."ocession of the Rev. Dr. Ryerson from the
Ministry, becrauvso imaM^ k* effect that change, and
;iu< pubijcation of a pamphlet to explain his reasons
for so important an action immediately after, were
circufustances which many thought would produce
a considerable excitement, and that to the extreme
limits of the connexion. This however, has not
been the case, j; .id is probably owing, mainly, to the
prudent course which the Conference pursued in
abstaining, as far as practicable, from all exciting
reference to the subject.
It has nevertheless been my conviction, ihat
sooner or later' an antidote to Dr. Ryerson's pham-
phlet shouUl be supplied ; and therefore, I rejoiced
to learn that one was forthcoming from the pen of
the Rev. II. Wilkinson, of London. His piety as a
christian ; his habits as a pastor ; and his intelli-
gence as a Minister, gave assurance that the service
would be well performed by his hand. All this is
the case so far as the main subject of the pamphlet
is concerned, viz. Class-meetings a Wesleyan and
Scriptural condition of church membership— but as
ttk
iMiH
Preface.
. Vw he gives of the relation oH^al U.c
f : J the vi^iW"^ Church >« J^ - ^,,^ „,
dren to i"^ ^ , vcnturca i"
strictly Wesleyan-1 have ^|,e whole
my pen. f ^ *"' 4i, I the more readily c o, as
suhieft in debate. 11"^ ' . j,orntion to Dr.
'*^ie^vs where we ^o* ^^^ aiterent channel
Byerson, have nm m a some.U ^.^^^^^
ftim his, and *at I can suPPT ^_^ ^^ ^,g„„,ent
fear of travelling over the ^^J^ j^^^en in order
'^^Th form of -ii'^^"?^^" J^T^Sy andfuUy, not
that I might give t^n. ™«-»^^/^ Ws of my
„„,y the -"^^"*:,revery ins.ice rs rende-d
opponents. Thus w" , employ, the reader
to them and the «S"«' » -S T^ctweeu us, and
will be the better able to jud„
lake the truth his own.
DIALOGUE 1.
Class-Mfrtin"S a Condition nf Church MenibersUp.
Algernon A^cMJ/xY^j/s.-Good morning, Samuel, I a«J
"lad to meet you; 1 want to converse with you about
matters which, of kite, have very much occupied
my mind.
Samuel Old paths -VI e\\, Alj^ernon, I have some
leisure at the present, and will gladly devote it to
the conversation you desire. Pray, what are the
matters which so much interest you1
^. iV.— The principal one is, that our church
should insist on attendance at Class-meetings, a^s a
condition of membership. " I do not regard as
Wesleyan, or having the sanction of Mr. Wesley,
the making attendance at class-meeting an essential
condition of membership in the church of Christ.
Mr. Wesley declared that the sole ol>ject of his
labours was, not to form a new sect, but to revive
religion in the church and in the nation; that
each class was a voluntary society in the church,
but was no more a separate church organization
than a Bible Society, a Temperance Society, or
Young Men's Christian Association, is a seperate
organization."
^. o.— Friend Algernon--! look at you, and
listen to your remarks, with mingled feelings of
[surprise and disappointment ; nor can I well sup-
Condition of Church
tiilkin'' a
bout B
iblc and
in
6 Clan-Meetinsa as a
p,ess the laugh .4 r-" ™7::,; ^^^.U.^
Temperance Soeiefes, ";;• "^f^^^, i,,, ,cq«aint-
Mf. Wesley's .lay. You -'^^]^ j ti,,„^ut you
ed with Mr. Wesley's -^^ ""8;;'^^„,iderins y"«'
were, or than you ov^-t to be ^^^^ ^^^^^^.
standing in the /^^urcn, and o^^ ^^^^^^ ^^„ y^u
dence with wh.eh {»" j; j.^vered his judgment
aware that Mr. V^ esley ha« ^lu ^^^^^,^,^^
mostexpUeWyou*V«sv«y ul,cc^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^
you are not. «'- y^^; "fallen fronr your lips.
statements which have u. ^^^^^^^. „.
I will direct y;-f^-X society at five and
. Lplained the ^-^^ ^Ja" now about five hun-
upon enquiry, I Am we ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^
dred memhers. But one n therefore, i
do;iot P-tendtomee at ^;-oft^, ^^^^^
make no ""^-l^';^ •',,_. Dear Joseph we must
Mr. Benson, he ^"7° „ i„ November last,
threaten no l-fj^^t; ^ur rule is, to meet a
I told tne London ^"^ '-^y- „, three, I now
class once a week, ""^ ?'^'=^.'^ ^ \i,^ets to none in
give you warnmg, ^^^^^ done this.' I have
February but those tlut have ^^^^_^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
stood to my word. Go you, an ^^ ^^,^.
you visit the ^I'^f -;^ .«;^^"^d. Promises to meet
Ue and go on to S« de^- ^^_^^ „„, ^
are now out of date, tiw ^^^^^ .^ ^j,^
times in the quarter eM r-d m ^^^ ^^^^
society, '^i f^ZhXfnoLet tu.lve times,
M^rtet exclude all that ««"'' , ^ ^ distance,
that is, unless thev were hindeieU y
ch
riblc and
xistcd in
acquuint-
juglit you
rin^i y<>«T
the confi-
Aro you'
i jud-^^mcnt
?' doubtless
niadc the
i your lips,
vohime II.
it five, and
ng in class ;
,ut five hun-
teen of these
?, therefore, i
Lu a letter to
l>h we n)ust
3vember last,
Ls, to meet a
r three, I now
ts to none in
this.' ibave
vise, wherever j|
d be, at New-
)inises to meet
I not met seven
r names in the
will the next
't twelve times,
d by distance,
Memhcniip Jjoth Weslyan i'Scrtj[)tural. 7
sicknes.*?; or by some unavoidable business." Vol.
XIII. p.l 4. 'Jo Mr. Vewdail, Mr. W. writes :— " Those
who will rot meet in class cannot stay with us"
That Mr. V/csley did not desigjn that his societies
should ever assume a scperate church organization
is admitted; but that that separate o; nization was
Ibrced upon his society, by circumstduces which he ^
could not control, is weli known, as it was clearly
apprehended, and to some extent provided for, by
Mr. Wesley himself Yet you find no evidence, not
the slightest, that he wished the condition of mem-
bership TO be made less stringent; but the contrary,
rather. The burden of proving the latter rests
with you, my friend ; and I assure you, your attempt
at doing so would be the commencement of a very
hopeless task. It is not without point in this con-
troversy, that when Mr. Wesley counselled and
directed in the formetion of the Methodist church
in the United States, he called for no alteration m
the disciplinary usage for the church there, to that
which he enforced in his societies at home. This
one fact is fatal to your argument drawn from that
source, and must therefore be abandoned.
^, iV.— If, as J confess I must, retreat from my
position, so ikr as Mr. Wesley is concerned, I still
maintain that my objection is fiilly sustained by
Holy Scripture, and " that no human authority has
a right to impose any condition of membership in
the Church of Christ, which is not enjoined by or
may be concluded from the Holy Scripture." « I
know of no Scriptural authority to slude any
, ■^ . '
*, rhmch of Clui.t on earth, except
person from the t-^^^^ "j^^^,, „i„, Iro.n (he lOnS"
, t'llic in this
S. o.-I confess e;-;;^/^*-'?^ ^^^ f^^il.st measure
subjeet increases my sv,rp^., ^.^^,^ ^Uat-iw-
of which I ask y.°"' -l^^X Ai»g *»t will keep a
• r,^al conAaa^' '^^ ^o^ of Glor>- If -•
person out of the y o ^^^^^^ ^^ matenally
and you are "!5^^.*''^„",ad of saying. " Except a
altered. O^" «^^'""' ^ ea.mot see or enter the
^,n te bom ajn ;^e - ,,,, ,„,.tit«ted an
Kingdom "f/^^J ^,;,.„; ,„„,;„,(" for that great
avoidance of » ^'""'^ ^ ^^j^^.^ tUe Apostle, nay
spiritual change!. ^n ^^^^^^ ^,^ ^j^ ^
the Holy Spmt by t he A ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^.^^ ^„^„
without hol;nes^ -e can ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ .
mistaken, lor all tlial ^ ^ ^^^ ^ ^^^^ (.^j^,^j^ ,j
avoid " mMORA. 00."''^^ - j.^^ i,, the
T*-^^'tS S'f eTclvincL that they have
rehgious ^^of" '^' . ,,, acquaintance with the
possess.
•+• « nna its application to the
As to your FoP^^'^f \^ „ J n ust say, that it
X- ,ii^rlpr consideration, i niuM. ^ J-'
*l"'''"'Ve sam^ cmdeness of thon.ht, and hasti-
evmces the same c ^^ ^^^^ ^.^^^ ^^g^
ness of conelus.on. Have y j,^,,,
passages of ^'^'''^''''^^^mdto Mtl^fiork^over
which the
Holy Ghost hath made you
ch
1, excex)t
lie KinS"
; in this
t measure
that " im-
n\\ keep a
1 If so,
materially
« Except a
. enter the
tituted an
that great
postle, nay
■es us that
3 was mneh
ereto, is to
)ar friend, if
upon it, the
at they have
nee with the
you seem to
ication to the
t say, that it
ht, and hasti-
vot read such
iwing— " Take
U the flock, over
werseers, to feed
Membership, both Wesleyart ^' Scriptural 9
the Church of God, tchich he hath purchased with his
oum Blood ?" If so, lias it not occurred to you that
llic elders, or rulers of a church, arc under fearful
responsihilities to feed, as well as to rule properly,
the Church of God ? But if they are compelled to
feed and rule, are the mernhers to he held hy no
obligation hut that of their own good pleasure to
attend and co-operate in their measures! lire
idea is preposteroJ.s. Again, in almost pointed
allusion to such meetings as our Class meetings,
St. Paul exhorts :— " And let us consider one another
to provoke unto lave and good works : not forsaking
the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of
some is; but exhorting one another ; and so ^nuch the
more, as ye see the day approaching'' I repeat that
the apostle may he supposed to pouit to assemblies
of the Piimitive Church, exactly similar to our
Class-meoHngs— for surely they are times in which,
in the best sense, we " cojisider one another to
provoke unto love and good works," then, therefore,
the inlerence is unavoidable, that to absent our-
selves from such means, enforced as they are by the
rules of the clmrch for objects of saivation, and
abundantly proved to be eminently conducive to
that end, is to sin, and by a wilful perseverence
therein to render ourselves obnoxious to expulsion ;
nor would the rulers of a church be guiltless in wink-
ing at such an oifence. Indeed, the words immedi-
ately following the Scripture edited, show thjit the
Apostle viewed the conduct of such absentees in a
strong light, for he adds '' if ws sin wilfully," as
[though he meant that sucli conduct was a cowardly
M M^.s as a Condition of Church
10 Class-Meattngs as a ^
c ,.r fiith in Christ, and
1 n Strong and irrcsistable
Class-meetin«s have "^ ^""^-t position we give
e,ai.n on Ac hi.h -J FO^^^^bly providential
,,,em,fortlieyor.gmatedmar^ ^^^^.^^^y_^
way ; they wevo foand to ^^^^^^^^^ .aificat ion;
indetectingirregulan les an 1 ^ ^^^^^^^^ ,i
and now after a lapso ot mo ^^^^ ^^^^ ^„,t
are prized by the gre^at bi "^ ^^^^^.^^^^.^ jhein,
spiritual of our ■'^.'^'^'^^J P„^ ,, handed to us frona
!. break down «-- f ";7w:ioy,--and throu£
tiie great, wise =»'!, f "° p^„„,, the Mathers, the
the hands of «- f X^rar^wells, ect., ect., o
Pawsons, the Cl'^rks,me ^^.^.^p^^^^nt
trust, ---e are not capable.
A„dwho, my ^;j-s::z:!^i:^
ehaagS you demand of us N^ « ^^^ ^^ ^^^^^.
of those wlro are mal^-g a ,^op ^ ^^^ ^^^^
„eetir.gsnr.d therefore knwn^c ^^.^^^ ^^^^._^^ ^^ ^
rather-andlmaV th.a er ^^ spirituality is
spirit of undue "'A'";"^; ^^^,,,f„re, do not wish
iiarfully below V^^^^ ^ieh they have htUe
to be dogged into f "l'J'''=^^r „,,er, I trust, find out I
or no relish. No! you wiU ^^^ ^f mem-
ohureh so insane as to give up ^^^^ .ts J
hership whieh has '■>-" f;,t;ge -Wch in the!
I
J
ch
rist, and
resistable
I we give
ovideiitial
erviccable
dification;
ttiiry, they
and most
ider them,
to us from
id through
ithers, the
;ct., ect., ot
[T impo^ tant
of which, I
3Iemhership, both Wesleyan ^ Scriptural.
11
3ased by the
a a thousand
se of Class-
ic ; hut those, |
L nothing of a |
.pirituaUty is |
3, do not wish |
heyhave little "
trust, find our
litionofmem-
.ortant from its
vhich in the
ambers, both in
the ministry and out of it, would work injuriously
to our highest interests and objects.
A. JV.— Although not able to meet all you say,
Itiend Samuel, I nevertheless « am persuaded that
every person who believes the doctrines, and ob- "
serves the precepts and ordinances enjoined by our
Lord and his Apostles, is eligible to membership m
the Cliurch of Christ; and cannot, on Scriptural or
Wesleyan grounds, be excluded from its rights and
privileges upon the mere ground of his or her being
unable" to reconcile it to their views to take a part
in the conversations of Class-meetings."
S. 0.— You must excuse me Algernon, if I say,
that there is much that is sophistical in your argii-
ments and statements. Your position just now laid
down contradicts itself. It amounts to just this—
that persons may be, should be, members of the
Church on observing the precepts and ordinances
of the Lord and his Apostles ; provided, however,
that none of these precepts and ordinances are irre-
concilable with their views of propriety and expe-
diency. I have already given you an injunction
from St. Paul to do the very thing which some do
not wish to do, viz : that of assembling together for
mutual edification in love ; and yet, because their
" views " are antagonistic to the counsels of Infinite
Wisdom they are to act accordingly and be guilt-
less !
Again, it is a divine command that the members
of the Church should « obey those that have the
12 aass-Meetings as a ConMon of Chunk ^ ^^
M. over them; for they ^.atcU for J-^^^'l^i^; -^
they that must give aceount »i ^,,„,_,for cer-
to depend upou a mere uum of thu> J .^^^,
,.Jy anobjeetion to ^I^^^^^A^,^^^
ae.erve.nohetter to^ , no.cn^ ^^.^ ^^^^^^^
christian ean "hject to mcU ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^.^^^^
tians to eo.xverse a.id P'^'V "-^^^^^^^^^ ^„i„ded professor
richest interest to every ^P"f fj ,„ ^,J.
_then tlic Apostolie preeept i* oi
Have you ever pon
of this nature by
pressiv^
non^ered tlie alkrsions to meeting's
r'S-t Malachi and tire .m-
"I ' - - ■ --ah hunself !—
I
Jehovi
,vni read It for your consid.ratioi .
i ,vill read it for your <^"''"^ ,„ „,„,,/,,,," (as
tMt feared tke Lord spak^ oftn o. t ^^^^^^^^^^^^
and heard it, and a booh o um ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
own son '/"''-•■-"';;;^;,.^ jiiy ,in,i!ar to ourelass- i
siou to mectmgs «"^'"'^;*7 .^ ;, . ^nd beeause I
meetings 1 ""'l«'^^*'""^\"'f * ;„' w ■ nn-st, nccord- '
our ehureh ^visely «n»'"* Z^™; I opti..nal as to
i„,toyonrtheory, leave It vufc'y ^^ ^_^^_
.vhether our member, s .11 ^ .,,,,„cnanee
whieh just amounts to <"^' ; ,^ -f „„ ,„cm-
shall rest upon a mere co»* ' ^'™^>; ,,f „,ay
,ers so please an mv^;;^^^
rcll
souls, as
dience is
—for cer-
mcetiugs
nteUige.iit
ow cbvis-
tei-softlie
d profch^sor
lil.
meetings
ndtlie im-
hiniself^ —
' Tlicn they
lothei-r (as
1 hcarhenfdi
ivas written
vrd, and that
e mine, saith
make np ^^^V
n spareth his
here an all«-
• to our elass-
aiicl because
iiiust, accord-
optional as to
cm or not, — ■
r inaintcnance
iidiftlicmcni-
of ?.^rnce may
j,U be dropped.
s very latitude,
Membership, both Wesleijan Sf Scriptural.
13
claimed and acted upon, led to the disuse of such
means in other branches of the church, both old and
new, as from Malachi and St. Paul it is very clear
they once existed? And, if so, it is an additional
reason for adoring that providence which led Mr.
Wesley to enforce attendance thereon even on the
penalty of expulsion. Better that luke-warm pro-
fessors should be expelled from the church than that
so important a means of grace should be endan-
gered, much less given up and abandoned.
That it should be optional with persons as to
which section of the church they will join, or intleed
any at all or not, 1 readily admit ; but 1 never can
agree with you that after joining a church they
should be allowed perfect liberty as to whether or
not they will conform to its rules :— rules prayerfully
devised and divinely attested.
There are other views which tend to strengthen
my convictions of the scriptural character of class-
meetings, and of the importance of enforcing attend-
ance thereon even at the penalty of expulsion. The
first of these i* the opportunity thus aflbrded to the
mmisters of the church for knowing the spiritual
state of the members, and thus of ministering such
instructions etc., as their cases may call for ; but if
no such means exist, or may, or may not be atten-
ded as the members shall please, an important end
of ministerial obligation may be defeated ; and
which, according to your scheme, may be done v.dth
impunity.
t Another is, a church exists for mutual edification ;
,r ,• „. as a Condition of Church
14 O'U..-.- » ^^^^^^ „,V.,,
that the members may sympath.^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^
in seasons of trouble '-^^^^^^^^ ^nd pray with
ttaes of tcn>ptat-n;--"'y;„j _hut .^.e state
each other "VP"'"^ "J, fj^wa to sorre exten m
of each member «"«; be kno ^^^^ ^^j^,,
order to do this ;-yet '^^^^''.^^i.ous to them are
elass-rrreefmgs. or -jf ^° ^leetlr^gs have been
usedl F^f ^^^'^^'^ '" J viee But let us remove
found tobe of essential semc^ ^^ ^^^.^^
the neoessHy ior "* «»J';» ^^y t,,o,„e neglected,
^e ougbt. and -» « 7J^f ,uurch organization
and thus an ' 7"^*^"* ^ when I reflect upon your
wouldbelost. I'=«"fi^ Xt .i,nmmal conduct w^ll
statement, that *|^^'|„,,„,„ „/ Glouj," and
«c/«* « i'^'f 1-^' ' J' effort to etfect so serious a
eonple it ^-* this your^cft^^.^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^.^^^^ „„
r%;:i-ltaW and prospects.
-,.^._..ouareveryco.«-i^rtS
must admit with me, tlvat -' ^^^^^^ ,„a abu-
„otwithstandingoec.^onaUmi P^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ .,,
,,, attending ^em, l^*. ^«^" , ^,,,f„i„ess of the
l^romoting fbe ^f'f";^';\%„torcing attendance
Wesleyan Ch«eh , f *- ^^ ^^^^.^ip, you deviate
thereon, as a c""'^'^'? primitive church, for " the
from the practice frt-P'- and not class-' 1
celebration of *%^i„_haracteristic institution ^
meetings, was the bm to, ^h^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ y„„ ,U
upon its members , • ' comnmnion, and
/repel ^o-ands who ^^^ ^^^^^^^^.^^ of all tke
with one sweep Ignore tn
Membership, both Wesleyan tj* Scriptural
15
baptized children of the body," sending away
and keeping " away the conscientious and straight-
forward, who could not think of joining a reli-
gious community without intending habitually
to observe all its rules," while " after all, it i^ habitu-
ally disregarded by a large portion of both preach-
ers and people, and is made, as far as my observa-
tion goes, an instalment of gratifying individual
hostiUty, rather than a means cf promoting the re-
ligious and moral ends of christian discipline."
^^ 0.--This last, friend Algernon, is a large
count, with several grave particulars ; one of which,
viz: that of ignoring the membership of baptized
children, I will reserve for another opportunity.—
The others I will now attend to in the order you
present them. ^
First, then, the diilerence in our usage as to the
condition of membership with that of the primitive
church. But will you contend, or are you pre-
pared to show, that " the celebration of the Lord's
Supper" was the only condition which the prirni-
iive church had, or might have had, in perfect
accordance with the spirit and design of the New
Testament ? Your statement to this end is not suffi-
cient. I think it is easy to conceive that attendance
on the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, in the ab-
sence of other evidences of attention to the institu-
tions of Christianity, would not have sufficed (nor
ought it to have done) as a claim to church mem-
•bership. There is one end which your reference to
I
,e aass.MeeHn,sasaConMi.>.ofa.r.k
A +ivif is to show tlml
this particular ^viU answer, a,,d b. ^^^^ ^
coivlitions of w^^-^^t^^^^^^.-ar^d if a differ-
1 I, Thpv also exist ni oiir»
chureli. /'^<^y , i„stitntion designed to act
enee is found '» 'l^*- " .^„^,i of, not because
for this object, it is to be J '«= g ; t„,, to
of any verbal -^^ «-,•;" ,,,0 'To ,ro,notc the
*""* f'^lTthTcto; w a'lnstitntld. On this
ends for vdiich the churui ^i,„rches have
we can confidently "^^^^^^ >.'" / ° '',,f„ ; but with
the very -'"d!^-" .*■; ^^'f^r ad success, need
r^;:;S:;ar;;:e:^;a:^-f comparison.
"-«-r:.rri:t.i;.s:r;rtC
of the apostolic clunch is ^^ ^^^
.easono for expulsion from U^ P«' • .^,^
as the Scriptures give s l^.Vit o ^^
"-^ ^''°^1iStfl *^^^^^^^ »/ ^<*''"" «"f
,,st, or are hoUleis 01 m ^^^^^ ^^^^j,
'/ .fe *'f '''/"'l^lee^in wW lluch a disciplinary
are the only instances 11 v 1 ^^ j^^_
process should l>e aPPl;^dJ t > no ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^
n reference to this ^si'' ^ CM ^ refemnl to,
ehargedfornotdoin^ml^^^^^^^^^
what they had no f f "'* ^ . ^ ^o wait for lit-
i„5 most clearly that a '^'-^^^ ^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ftom the
eral direction ^-^}^^£^ the Jreat end« ,
effects of conduct . n its mem ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^
of their orgamzatton. Ye«, U P ^^^^ ^„^i ^^.j
objects of the church are to be co ^^ ^^^
which wouW militate "S-"^^, ^To be indite j
dealt with as its influen-c demands. ,
ill
rch
^how thai
primitive
f a ditfer-
?(1 to act
)t because
ripture to
)inotc the
. On this
rches have
; but with
ccess, need
rnparison.
?xact usage
as to the
i. e., so far
the subject,
couuviit in-
Balaam, and
,y that such
disciplinary
[bout weight,
that they are
;s referred to,
doing ;«hf>w-
o wait for lit-
duty from the
[\ie oreat ends
that the great 1
Lered, and that |
objects is to be
, To be indif.:
Member^hipi both Wesleyan Sf Sc iptural. 17
ferent herein would be to lay a church open to
censure and rebukes I lay it down as a principle
with the utmost confidence, that a christian truly
in earnest for eternal life will gladly avail himself,
or herself, of such a means as class-meetings ; and
any who are not thus in earnest, are threatened with
expulsion by the Head of the Church himself. " /
know thy works, that tJwu art neither cold nor hot ; I
would thou wert cold or hot. St tlien because thou art
lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee
out of my mouth. Now, my friend, read and ponder
this passiige of Scripture ; and if you do so fully,
I will venture to predict that your objection to
our rule, as being unscriptural, will vanish as mist
from the influence of the rising sun.
You say that by our condition of membership we
repel thousands from our communion who other-
wise would readily join it. Then, it must be ad-
mitted, we are not as a church unduly anxious to
swell our numbers, or, that a way is easily opened
to us for doing so. Be this as it may, the charge
you here present is a grave one, and should not
rest lightly against us. But I apprehend the result
would be like that of increasing the quantity of a
liquid by diluting its quality. This would be in-
creasing the size, but certainly not the value and
[efficiency of the church. Methodism has no reason
[to be ashamed of its principles as judged by the
[results which have flown from them in the labours
); a century. The condition against which you
jxcept in us, exists not in other churches, while the
. 1 f„r iM fnllv sranted there ; and
yet, with none of thtni
comparison.
. , ;il ,.xtcna my remarks a littlt
0„ ibis pon^t -'^^f;iuilg myself better
further ; and tor the sake o ^^^ .^ .^ ^^,i
understood, employ a .gure^ ^^^^ j, ^i,h
known, exists for the ^^^^ ,^,^, ,„ health,
the proil-ssod object ot restoi „ ^^ ^^^ .^^
and sending ^^^-^^;>^\''Z^'^ hospital depends
duties. The "^J:*;,.. ,^J, ^o thl end. Aware
„pon the ~- . ^^^^^^^^^^^ means which ha.e
of this, one has in^ti'""^" ^^^^ ^^ gen-
been eminently ^f^':^^^";^,^; principles rises up
tleman of exeeedmgly " f^^^^^^^^ ^ allowed
,nd denumds that P«fec hb. rt) sh ^.^^ ^, ^^^^ ^^^
the patients as ^" -*;;.:, abiL by every rul^
the presenptions ot "^l ^^ „„, „,ie, particularly
of the institution ; '>"d a au_ ,^ ^^^^^
betakes exceimon - • «-* ;^^ ,^ be examined
patient to api^ar at g.v en P ^^^^^^ained. Any
^"•"•^^'fh^e h on^eLs, is nnrcasonable and
compnlsion here, he ^ y j^ and mam
tapolitie; for some i'^Hhe hospital if no such
Jre would gladly enter the h ^P ^^ ^^s
ordeal was demanded. "^« f ^i^,^„„t reason :-
and say, Mr. ^^-^^ ^* „ot you assuredly
Are you aware, tor it yo ^^^^j
ought to be, that - 1-P' «^ -f :,V gratify the
swell the number of its """; ^i,^ ^ick ration-
H
ere; and
suft'er by
ks a little
iclf better
, it is well
eople with
to health,
fit foi its
lI depends
nd. Aware
which ha fe
Dnce a gen-
es rises up
L be allowed
ill follow all
3y every rule
, particularly
comj)els each
be examined
aincd. Any
asouablc and
it, and many
,1 if no such
turn to him
out reason:—
^Tou assuredly!
not to merely
to gratify the]
■he sick ration-
possible. Our
. Member iliipi both Wcsleyan Sf Scriptvral. 19
course hitherto, has been most successful ; while the
alteration you propose has no one quality to recom-
mend it. Please to let us alone that we may pursue
our course unhindered by your ill-judged intrusion.
I will leave you to draw the necessary inference
from this figure, may it serve to correct your judg-
ment, and thus render you a service.
Your reference to the " conscientious and
straight-forward" persons who, but for our ill-advis-
ed condition of membership would unite with us,
is rendered more particularly attractive by your
fling at others, whom you describe as " a large por-
tion of both preachers and people," who yo . say
disregard this rule. Man is a fro-ward creature,-
and it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to induce,
and even to compel him to attend to what is for his
benefit. But allowing your statement all the lati-
tude you desire, (which many refuse to do \vho are
much more competent, trom their position and em-
ployments to form a judgment herein than you can
be,) it becomes a question, whether or not it would
be judicious to substitute a weaJcer motive for obe-
dience to an important duty when a stronger
one has been found to be ineffective. Could we
be assured that the number of those delinquents
would be matched by the very " conscientious and
straight-forward'' persons you allude to, it would
I certainly be a reason for reflection ; but as I think
'these estimable beings exist only in your imagina-
Ition, it would be exceedingly visionary to give up a
[tangible reality for a mental creation.
,0 Cla..Me.i.,sa,aCo.mo.ofCkMc,
-rue closing ~k o^ your la«t '^^^^
to notice a moment ere we Pj"*" .j^^^^.„^,„,,,g, "is
n,le .nforcing """/'tcrvation^'oes.auinstrunicnt
„.ade as far as 'your' ob.cn at^o^ ^^^^^
for gratifying i^'l^'trUr^ilud moral ends o
roeaus ol'promoting the rcU .^.^^^ ^,,„g,, and
ehristiandisciplrue. lU ,^„,body. But,
rests mamly against them tuing to drag
Algernon, have you «;« Jf -^u ;L, „nd moral
.„cU offenders agamst rt.^J_^^. ^^^ ^„,,^„i
ends .i discipline to 3"'=. ^^is subject
have been u"^<=««"ff^'j;;e: led to your credit,
hitherto ; a th.ng "«^*° ^;-^'j ^^^ict it has been to
when it is considered low d ^^^^^^^ j_^^^
your obsevvatron -J^-Jjtch mul-practices
been to demand and corre .^j, ^^^y i
But, you must aHoW ""^ ^y.'ydasalundof make-
heUeve, tWshasbeen mhoduced ^^.^^ ^^^
weight to your argumeta ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^
for the occasio... '\,/fl„,n„e those only who
3ay. This assc.tK>u ''» ^Inary usages in such
do not understand our '^^^^^^^'^J, ^j^^^ our church
has guards «'>'^^;'"7_^hers ''om any such
/t, ^c,
lit 1 wit^U
f that the
tiug'^ " is
istrunicnt
r than a
:al ends of
\arge, and
^dy. But,
ijg to draj?
and moral
a certainly
lis subject
your credit,
las been to
means have
J-practices.
rith many 1
ind of make-
ling coined
act I must
,se only who
;ages in such
it our church
nd well ap- |i
m any suchi
I gain to resort
n a bad argu-
;an only injure
DIALOGUE II.
TJie relation of baptized children to the visible Church
of Christ, explained and vindicated
Algernon Newumjs.—Guod morning, Samuel; I
have des-ired to renew our conversation on the sub-
ject whicl. occupied our attention when we were
!ast together. I hope your leisure as well as your
incJination w^iJl admit of a resumption of it now,
Samuel Oldpaths.— My Icisu-e and inclination are
at one in this case ; and if you please, we will go at
once into the point reserved for future consideration.
It was as to whether or not, by making attendance
on class-meeting a condition of membership, the
Methodist Church did not ignore the membership
of all children baptized by their ministers.
A. iv;— Yes, that is my avowal, and I think that
as an inference .it is unavoidable.
S. 0.— Your inference is just as logical as is that
of the Baptist, who, from the commission of the
Saviour to his Apostles, concludes against the bap-
tism of children. The case is as follows ;— " Go ye
into all the world," said Christ, " and preach the
Gospel to every creature ; he that believeth and is
baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not
shall be damned." Now, exclaims the Baptist,
children cannot believe, therefore they should not
be baptize '' But if so, and the inference i? just, the
22 The Relation of CIdldren to the Vuible
be damned ! It tlie con ^ ^^^^^^ ^^^.
just, the latter one IS even mo e^^ ^^^^^ ,,^.
^^ 1^*^:: \':1 Se - satis^ed that this senp-
.aptism. VV e tner ^„ ^^^^ ^o adults
*'«^/°"r ATlailtti heUeve in order to
exclusively. All auii , only, were the
baptism and -l-t-'^^j f "^ "Jjf Ct as I^^m* ehil-
Apostlescomm—W^^^
considerations. .
. AT T aDwehend your meaning. You wild
^- ^ . T fhnt IS children are incapable
,,,e me to ^;J^l ^^eir claim to church
of attending class-ineenn, ^^.^
membership must rest on «^« ^, "^'f/ ^,,,,, fto„,
you when yoWOudre<i ^^^^.^ ^^^ ^^.^^ ^^^
meetings ; and J^'^^^^^^^^i,,,, , Or. would you
otherwise moral and irreproachable?
c o.-You are correct in your apprehension of |
, i,„r.*Um I mean class-meetings for
STh*:: aSd^d^ught to profit by them
S therefore certainly not for very young children.
\ut must require of children attendance on class-
lee i«^" when arrived at a proper age to d.scnmin-
'J
hie
m niiinot
hey must
ler cgse is
iich great-
than ibr
this scrip-
; to adults
1 order to
y, were the
rAfant chil-
to baptism
-d by other
You would
e incapable
Lii to church
3. I admit
know from
ittend class-
ot doing soj-
r, would you
children al-
en arrived at
laracter was
prehension of
5-meetings for
•ofit by them,
)ung children,
ance on class-
3 to discrimin-
Cflmrch of Chriat, Explained and Vindicated. 23
ate their nature, and profit by their use, on pain of
expulsion from the church. Thus you sec that I
regard something more than moral conduct as a
qualification for church membership even in these.
I think there ought to be instituted in ou- chuch a
means after the nature of class-meetings for the
young, by which their spiritual interests might be
cultivated in a way better adapted to tlieir chcum-
stances, than any now in use by us.
^, /\r— With all you have now said I cannot
agree ; for, " while I maintain that each child in
the land has a right to such an education as will fit
him for his duties as a citizen of the state, andtiiat
the obli'gations of the state coiTCspond to the rights
of the child, so, I maintain, upon still stronger and
higher grounds, that each child baptized by the
church is thereby enfranchised with the rights and
privileges of citizenship in it, until he forfeits them
by persoi^al misconduct and exclusion, and that the
obligations of the church correspond to the rights of
the child."
g^ 0._I thi'ik, my friend, that while your argu-
ment is very specious, your figure is quite as damag-
ing to your cause as any one opposed to your views
could wish. The child, you say, has a right to such
an education as will fit him for bis duties as a citi-
zen of the state ; so I say, and so our cimrch believes ;
lience she has devised means to this end— such as
Sabbath Schools, pastoral visitations and catechetical
instruction, that thus educated in the science of sal-
vation, the chikl may become fitted for his duties as
m
m
24 2%e Relation of Children to the Vmbte
an adult member of the church. But if, when he has
an adult mem ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ j,^^„„,.
• "aTe and tchoCthings that arc for personal ben-
em „d general usefulness in the church he pes -
Welyandrepeatedlyrefusestoengagemthe.^^^^^
by serious and " I-^^ ^^t-s -e q^^^^^
»n(\ receives "exclusion. inc cdst.^ ai m
iler-lvea, the resemblance between your figure
C,d our clwrcWs practice is so close that one won-
d rs you dTd\>ot perceive it. And let me tell you
mv frLrd, with all affectionate fiuthfulness and
cairdour, that with singular inconsi^tcucy, you seem
to have ost sight of more than one important ele-
Int in our cLch's polity, the proj^ mfluence 1
which would have given a very difterent turn to
your arguments and objections.
A TV . -Well, Samuel, as yon take the ibundation
from beneath my present superstructure I will aban-
don it, and if you please will take up "-rtier ph^e
of the subject suggested by a pamphlet (tV th«R«^-
H. Wilkinson) I have recently read. Alter all, l
think that "the stereotyped terms and sentiments
of much that is written in reference to the relaaon-
suip of children to the church, and the etfie.ency
of baptism in connection with that re ationship
should be rejected. " There is much in the phrase-
ology adopted, as well as in the ideas attempted to
be conveyed, that I never fully received, and that, in
fact, to my mind, never became intelligible ; and I
fancy, for that very good reason, that
' NoDjense can ne'er te understood.' "
ble
3n he has
) discrini-
;onal ben-
, he posi-
liem,then,
tie merits
are quite
roux figure
one won-
lg tell you,
Iness and
, you seem
)ortant ele-
[ifiuence of
^nt turn to
Ibundation
I will aban-
other phase
(by the Rev.
After all, I
sentiments
the reladon-
le efficiency
relationship"
[1 the phrase-
attempted to
, and that, in
oible ; and I
Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 25
S, 0.— This is strong language assuredly, and
must be treated according to the particulars to which
it refers. If you mean the absurdities of popery or
puseyismherf^in, I will agree with you, but if to such
sentiments as those maintained by Wesley, Benson,
Clarke, Watson, and olliers of our Church, and as
well by the greatest lights of the church of Christ in
all its periods, then I most seriously and earnestly
dissent from you. But pray be somewhat more ex-
plicit that I may understand your reference.
A. N. -Well then, if I were asked. " Arc children
members of the church of Chi ist vpon eurth ?" I would
answer " without controversy they are. It is incon-
trovertibly established by the plainest 1 cachings of
the Book'of God, that infants and little children are,
thanks to Jesus Christ ! in a gracions state. See
Matt, xviii : 2. 5 : Horn, v : 12, 20. Matt. xix. 14.
llow full the affirmation !— of such are the Kingdom
of Heaven." " The next inquiry is. Are children
members of lite visible church 1 I answer. No— em-
phatically. No."
S, 0.— Excuse me if I say, I do not think your
statement sufficiently clear. Children, you say, are
" members of the church of Christ upon earth," —
" are in a gracious state",— and that " of such are
the Kindom of Heaven"— yet you assert they are
not "members of the visible church;" then, pray,
what is their relation to the visible church of Christ ?
A. N.—" There is doubtless existent, w^hat is in-
tended by the visible and the invisible, or more
I
n. Relation of Children to tlu^ Vmhle ■ ^
properly spoaWng the ^P:^:'^;^i^TZ
tares .peak of -j^'f ['"':- ^^ .^^e. distinct or-
«evon clrurehes m Asia ; '«^^^^^^^ ^.^, ,Uureh.
^ani.ations,as so o.auy P^'*" "^ '' . ,;„,,,, taken
in like manner the whole ol *1"^; P" ,' j^,^ j,
together, -n«tit,Ue the^.u^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .^ .^ ^^^^^^
the visible ehuvch of God upo e- ' ^^ ^j^^
ir, the Ugliest sen.^ *° '''^'ftsruembers possess
«i,htofGod douhtle^^^^^^^^^ Body of
but a nominal connexion v .^^^^^
•^sir;. •: t srf\£:xro^^ ' r''
of Christ ih tne av ,„.^ i u- in smr tnal nnion
with the Sa lour. lUc i* |,,,u,nns, includes
,,e title of. '.nrf P--;- ^* I, " ^u' .nend.er-
only an accepted and ^2 f B^dv ' the 'llorise'
^>^tti;"t::^-ofaltandt
and the ^P"""*^ J" j^ the safetv, the perma-
"""^•*:dTlS'ori'tri..mph;so often and
nence, and the Jinai ^i Scriptnres.
Now, of this cluircn interest
'" tUe <-:'^"": :[,ars aeeeptan..e and salvation,
are in a state of 8"^» ^ "^ J ^ uie'. In "«
and of consequenc=c., h" '« ^"^^^ ^^^ „,,„,i,ers
«''- «r 'r ^ o;ircl reh relationship do
of the church. 0'"°"", of no other church
" ; "Ian takconftLdlywe may. as hundreds
r!nS4ttothi..,nattcr;hut,aflirrnitwho.r.a,
de
'he Scrip-
s ; as the
istinct or-
lo cliuvch.
ns, taken
l%is is
1 it is not, .
I. In the
ers possess
;al Body of
the church
he ' saved,'
itiial union
,' to which
s, inchides
Iv rneniher-
le 'House,'
belongs the
, the perma-
so often and
■f Scriptures,
ers ; and all
their interest
on ; as they
id salvation ;
life'. In JW
iits niemhers
iationship do
, other church
ify we may,
-. as hundreds
mit whomav,
Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated 27
the thin-^ is simply impossible that infants can be
memb' r- ^ f the church in any other sense."
,S'. 0. — I confess, Algernon, your earnestness of
spirit and vigor of expression have veiy mu(^h in-
creased since you read the pamphlet to Avhicli
you recently referred; yet I cannot say that
in every itistance your positions are better es-
tablished or your arguments more conclusive. You
say that children are members of the invisible or
spiritual church, hut that they are not, cannot be,
nor need they be, members of the visible church.
You institute, very properly, a distinction between
those who are but norninalhj members of the church,
and others who 'are so really and spiiitualhj; hut
allow me to ask you, does it form a part of God's
plan, so fur as the scriptures guide us on the subject,
that there should be a spiritual portion of the church
of Christ upon earth, separate from, and having no
connection with the visible church? You have
said, and truly, that children are, as are all like them,
and only such, of " the Kingdom of Heaven,'' But
what authority can you plead for assuming that in
that kingdom are two separate, totally and necessari-
ril) distinct portions,— not one of norninaKand the
other of real christians, but both e ^spiritual members:
members in the highest scriptural sci^e ? Not even
between the nominal and the real (adult) christian
is there authority from the Holy Scriptures for a line
of distinction such as you draw ; hut between spir-
hual members, members in the highest sense, to
institute a line, so that the one can not, need not pass
28 The Relation of Children to the Visihle
to the other, is to go not only heyond any statemciit
of scripture, but I must add, even '=o"t™;y /« ''^
verrloUerand spirit. Are not the words taken rom
St. Mark's Gospel, and used by our ministers when-
ever they perform the rite of baptism, fully m point
here '' " And they brought young children to him,
that he should touch the.n: and his disciples rebu-
ked tliem that brought thevn. But when .lesus saw
it, he was much displeased, and said unto them,
suffer the little children to come unto me, and iorbicl
them not : for of such is the Kingdom of God. Ver-
ier I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the
Kh.^dom of God as a little ..hild, he shall not enter
therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his
hands upon them, and blessed them."
From this passage of Scripture is it not clear
beyond contradh'tion, that while children have a
.rracious connection with Christ, are spiritually
members of his Kingdom, and susceptible o receiv-
in.^ his blessings, that that relation was declared a.
a Visible as well ps a spiritual one 1 The mode in
which they were brought to Christ was public ; the.
mode of reception was public ; the bestowmeut of
blessings upon them was public ; and the use which
Christ made of the act by which the chiUlrcn were
brought to hi»n, was to illustrate important prin-
ciples of his visible church or Kingdom, of which
He declared children were members. The authouty
of the Saviour in this instance must be regarded as
directly opposed to your idea of denying cl.ildren a
place in the visible church of Christ. Again-
statement
ary to its
ikcu from
ers when-
y in point
n to him,
pies rebu-
Jesus sa^v
nto them,
and forbid
^od. Ver-
receive the
I not enter
us, put his
L not clear
ren have a
spiritually
le of receiv-
declared as
he mode in
lublic ; their
;towmcut ol
e use which
liUlren were
ortant prin-
m, of which
lie authority
! regarded as
ig children a
Again —
Church of Christ, Explaintd and Vindicated. 29
We lead not only of the churches in Asia, as you
have intimated, but also of churches in houses, see
l^omans 16 : 5, 1 Cor. 16 : 19, Col. 4 : 15, Phil. 2: and
the law of the kingdom of God — the visible church,
as bearing upon this latter application of the term
church, and in reference to children, is, " children
obey your parents in the Lord : for this is right. —
honor thy father and mother ; which is the first
commandment with promise ; that it may be well
with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth."
Then as to fathers — " and, ye fathers, provoke not
your children to wrath: but bring them up in the
imrivire and admonition of the Lord."
Here are laws belonging to the kingdom of God,
and relating to members in that kingdom ; but
could these laws be carried out in the one case or in
the other, but as individuals referred to are members
of the visibly church ? assuredly not : and if parents
are bound to train their children according to the
laws of Christ's Kingdom, and children are capable
of such treatment, need such treatment, and should
have it ; then in this instance, as in that in which
they were brought to Christ for his blessing, are they
seen to be members of the visible church. And
further, if children are bound to " obey" their '• pa-
rents in the Lord", and to " honour" their "father and
mother" ; and that as early as they art capable ot
doing either the one or the other, then to say that
they are not, cannot be, nor need, they be, members
of Christ's visible church, is to sav that which is not
n •'.
U'l'
30 The Relation of adtdren to the Visible
scrinturally tnie : and being false must be " con-
trary to reason", and ongUt to be to " eommon
sense."
^ iV. Notwithstanding your strong remon-
strance I must maintain the position I I'ave laid
down, and in further supporting my views thereon,
"I quote in place here the following sensibe re-
marks from Dr. Wood, of Andover, U. S It can
never be consistent to regard infant children as
members of the church, in the peculiar sense la
,vhich adult believers are members ;. /or o/?te rela-
tion they are wanifestly imopahle. Nor can .t be
implied that baptized .-hildren can ever become
members of the church in this sense, on any lowei-
terms than those which are pres(-nted to otliers.-
Thev can be permitted to sustain this peculiar re-
lation only on the condition of their exhibiting the
character "of real piety. Still it is clear that baptiz-
ed children bear a real and very endearing relation
to the church. And allhough they are not at pres-
ent capable of being members of the chur-h (the
visible clmrch>, they will at length, ^nk,s ihnr own
wickedness prevent, become active and fliithfnl mem-
bers. Such is the design of the economy under
which thcv are placed ; and such we m:iy hope will
1hrou"-h the divine mercy, ordinarily be the happy
result"' Dr W. adds-' Thus the relation of bap-
tized children to the church is not an imaginary or
unintelligible relation, but one which is real and
obvious ; securing to them a special prospect of ob-
be " con-
common
CT rcmon-
]»avc laid
s thereon,
nsible re-
. « It can
lildren as
sense in
f this rela-
can it be
er become
1 ani/ lower
3 others. —
:)CcnUar re-
libiting the
hat baptiz-
w^j relation
not at pres-
IniF'h (the
ss their own
thful mem-
omv under
iv hope will
3 the happy
lion of bap-
magi nary or
is real and
jspect of ob-
Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 31
taining its spiritual and eternal blessings.' This is
the true and Scriptural relationship of childern, of
all children, to the church of God— a relationship
including every necessary good, and exactly suited
to their present unconscitas state and manifest in-
capacity. Where the authority, then, contraiy to
reason and connnon sense, for regarding infants
members of an active, repenting, believing, self-
denying, working church ^ Where ? nowhere but in
the mere imaginings of men."
6'. O.— Really, Algernon, your valorous earnest-
ness amuses me. you certainly have risen to " the
heroics," and but that the subject is of so important
a nature I should scarcely restrain myself from a
little merrinient at your expense. Your attitude is
at once so warlike and defiant that were it not for
the bulwark which the multitude of worthies in our
own church and as well in the various churches of
Christ from the days of the Apostles to the present
supply me, surmounted above and sustained be-
neath as I beliexe they all are by both Scripture and
reason, I do not know how I could face you. But
surveying these, and the firmness of their founda-
tion I am enboldened to say, I think you have been
unfortunate in quoting- from even so high an author-
ity as Dr. Wood. A Congregationalist, and there-
fore a Calvinist, could scarcely have written other-
wise. To have given what I consider the scriptur-
al, and therefore the truthful vieAV of the subject,
would have loosened so many joints of this Calvin-
istic system as to have endangered, if not to have
32 The Relation of Children to the Visible
destroyed the whole superstmcture. We may well
ask for evidence from other quarters and especially,
as all the Dr. has hitherto given (as quoted by you)
is mere assertion.
Still the Dr's. evidence is scarcely as much in
your favor as you seem to imagine. lie says " it
can never be consistent to regard infant children
as members of the church, in the peculiar sense in
which adult believers are members ; for of this re-
lation they are manifestlij incapable:' Tlie Dr. is
perfectly right here ;— who has imagined that infant
children could " be members ol* the church in the
peculiar sense in wliich adult believ(^rs are mem-
bers?" Who? None but those bereft of their senses.
2'hcj are members because they can be " active,
repenting, believing, self-denying, wovking mem-
bers ; but inasmuch as infants can .; lone of these
thino-s— that they ''are ?nanifef>tl i/ incapable "—ihaxe-
fore,^they cannot be members " in the peculiar sense
in which adult believers are me nbers." But are
they therefore in no sense members of the visible
church ? Dr. W. has not said— no.
Further, the Dr. says, « They can be admitted to
sustain this peculiar relation only on condition of
their exhibiting the character of real piety." That
is, the church must be satisfied that they are the
possessors of real piety. Well then, as you can
assure the Dr. that children ''are in a gracious state"
are "saved," "justified," " in spiritual union with the
saviour,"— are of" the , - y of Christ," are actually
nay well
specially,
I by you)
much in
; says " it
t children
ir sense in
)f this re-
he Dr. is
liat infant
reh in the
are mem-
3ir senses.
; " active,
i\g niern-
le of these
',"— there-
uliai' sense
' But are
the visible
dmitted to
ondition of
ty." That
ley are the
s you can
rious state"
an with the
ire actually
Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 33
of the "House" of Christ— the « spouse of Christ"
—to whom "belongs the unity, the oneness, the
purity, the safely, the permanence, and the final
glorious triun ph, so often and variously the glowing
theme of the Holy Scriptures," you can truthfully
assure him that any objections he may have against
the formal recognition of children (infants) as
members of the visible church on the supposed ab-
sence of real piety must be withdrawn, and his
theory thrown to the four winds of heaven :— and
your support from that somce-nil. But allow me
to tell you, my friend, there are several fallacies ly-
ing at the foundation of what you seek to maintain,
and I will now take the liberty of placing them be-
fore you. The first is that you assume that other
than the ordinary and divinely constituted channel,
the visible church of Christ, exists for the conveyance
of grace to the world, the young even as the old.
We should bear in mind, that while Christ is the
Head and only source of grace, the church, the visi-
ble church, is the only appointed medium for its com-
munication. God works by means; those means
are his church so far as human instrumentalitj is
concerned. One important means is instruction,
but the church conveys this instruction and that to
those who are, or ought to be, and might be, among
its visible (certainly not invisible,) members.
Another means is discipline, (and the former would
scarcely be perserved in if the latter were rejected)
but the church constructs and enforces that discip-
line.
■f
>
!
34 neRdationofChiU'rentotluViMe
■ *• • ^vltncssed in our Sabbath Scl.ool
How tnlly .s ;;- \X^;t,cn move so by other
organizations, ""l " « ^ , j.aivine inlluenco; Imt
important n'^'"^;*. *-; ;„ „„d ,hrousl> the means
this is given «"'"""'y' ' „„a by tlic c(,nnex-
the visible ''""- '„^^S^: Titv/extraorainary.
ionofcaehandalllhcttwm ^,,„ Have no-
0, cxeeptional cases or m - • ^j,^.
,hi„,tocl.inaa.eus . a '^ ,,.^ ^,, ,,,
tion is, what IS tlie nilt .101 ^^^^
.„„to regulate our J'jJ' ^^^^j,,,, of ignor-
painfuUy aoes llio woiia, "' ^^^ '" ,,.,, rineiplc
"- r:f :it'''F:;n:rs%ion^t.sevi-
agamst the churUi ^^,^,>ive instruction, may
dent,tliat as '^1"'^^«". ',,''; iipUne, and may be
be brought under scnptuu. d P '^^^ ^,^ ,^^^^,
.ubjeets of ^^'-";';;J; j'i 'Ihicl. ample provis-
as much as any f ""•"';' ',,^is either in connex-
ion has been vnade '^^^'^l j,,^,,, of those
io„ with -1""'^ ^-^cf Vau peak"; and as all this is
i„ a house o'-luch St^^auUl^^k . ^^_^
(must be) -'"-^ "J"^,aed as connecced with
otherwise than as such members
Mother fallacy your theo^ stands c^har^^^^^^^^^^^
i«, that none can be merjef tic v^^^^
less they are capab^;2:i^= -embers." Yo«
'S::Z^S^ emphasis, " where the author-
\^
le
h School
by other
?iico ; hut
ic means
coiinex-
ordhiary,
have 110-
the ques-
i that we
IS. How
of ignor-
prineiplc
1 it is evi-
ction, may
lul may he
I they need
iple provis-
in connex-
, or of those
IS all this is
icy and pro-
nected with
onscquently
upon eartli.
rdin«»" them
harged with
isible church
^^e, repenting,
ihers." You
re the author-
f^hurch of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 35
ity, then, contrary to reason and common sense" for
believing any other can be? Now to this I answer,
many reasons are fuimd in Scrriptnre for things very
" contrary to common sense." Common Heme is fre-
quently tbund a wonderfully stupid ajid pprverse
thing. It cruciliied Christ, persecuted liis followers
md has performed a great many silly and disgrace-
ful antics in all ages of the world; therefofe, it is
not always— nay seldom safe— to appeal to it. And
then as to " reason,'' it depends very nm(;h upon that
whicli directs it, for its b ung regarded as a safe
guide or standard of appeai. It must be acknowl-
edged that all adult believers cannot be ahvays ac-
tive memberrj of the visible church, for there are
times when they are constrained to be quite passive,
and it .s evident that when such is the case they can-
not be "worki,ig,'' iiny more than they can be "active''
members; but must they then for the time, cease to
be recognized as members of the visible church, and
rest contented until their powers of activity return,
if they ever do, they must simply be visible mem-
bers of the invisib^" church?
Surely the Scriptural statements which define the
Church, or Kingdom of God, are sullieiently plain,
see Matt. xiii. 24, 47, and xxv. 1, 13, Rom. ii. 28,
29, &c., as to show, in despite of what the Church
may do to prevent it, that within are the nominal
and real, or spiritual ; the wise and the unwise ; and
that its provisions are so adapted to human circum-
stances, that when its members can believe
and deny themselves, they are required to do so ;
"
I
i
«!•
36 The Relation of Children to the Visible ■
but that when such acts are i.»?l--;;y^^^!l,|J„t'
narf either lom youth or infirmities and afB.-tions,
part.eitiiei '""J , j^ seeketh not to
common to christians, then lie wii«
"Tap where he has not .own," gives according to
thrnecLsities and the riches of his own g^.ry
and not according to ?/^«acts or deeds, rhepn^
cWe by which you refuse children admission mto
Ae visible church of Christ, would, in its various
fornis of application, restrict its boundcries much
more than you appear to be aware.
A iV.-Notwithstanding all you suy, friend Sam-
uel "l am bound to object most strenuously to the
"dea that " baptism admits," that " baptism cnfran-
tises." thai baptism "makes" little children mem-
bers of the visible church. Now all this is the
merest assumption, it is not only uuproven, but ut-
terly incapable of proof. The obvious and solid
ruth is, that Baptism admits into, or makes of the
church, infants and little children, in no sense what-
ever Not of the visible church, since as incaimbles
Infants cannot be made members of it. You could
just as naturally talk of making them members of
parliament."
c -It would be a sufficient answer to all this
to u'se ;our own words and say, " all this is merest
assumption; it is not- only unproven, but utteily
; apTble of proof." They are not iiicapable of re-
ceivfng blessings flowing through the prayers and
supplications of tlie church ; neither are they utterly
Incapable of co-operating with that church in re-
Ill their
mictions,
ti not to
rdiiig to
n glory,
he prin-
;ioii into
various
!S imich
nd Sam-
ly to the
1 enfran-
en meni-
is is the
1, but ut-
ind solid
es of the
ise what-
ncapables^
low could
3mhers of
to all this
I is merest
(Ut utterly
able of re-
rayers and
ley utterly
jrch in re-
Church of Christ, Explained and VindicnteiL 37
ceiving its instructions in or 1- to their spiritual and
everlasting welfare ; nor are they incapable of doing
that, and visibly and audibly,— by which God is
glorified ;— for "out of the mouths of babes and suck-
lings the Lord has ordained strength." The proof
of the contrary is with you, which T apprehend you
will not P^tenipt. I am strongly inclined to believe
that your eiTor on this great subject is to be found in
an attempt to judge of the design and import of
baptism to children through the lax practices of the
church in reference to baptized children, than a de-
termination to estimate it at its full and scriptural
value, when with propriety you might insist on the
Church's practice being rendered strictly conforma-
ble thereto. For allow me to ask you, does not bap-
tism admit adults, even though previously convert-
ed into the visible church, and thus make them
members? And if so does it not enfranchise them
with its rights and privileges 1 Of course it does.
And if I have shown that the incapability you
assert to children of being members of the visible
church is an error, then it follows that v/e may con-
sider them, even as adults, as being by baptism ad-
mitted into the visible church, and enfranchised with
its rights without approaching an absurdity great
as that of attempting " to make them members of
parliament."
A. N. — "Circumcision was a 'sign' put upon
Abraham and his seed showing them to be a pecu-
liar people, under peculiar obligations to God, and
entitled them to peculiar blessings. It was a seal
38 The Relation of Children to the Visible
of the merciful covenant which actually included
th^m, and all covenant good for them. Jnst so
Baptism, now, with respect to onr children. It is
the sign, and not the means, of spiritual mercies.
But it is inquired, 'did circumcision 7nahe children
members of the visible church amojig the Jews?' "
and! answer "not at all, in the sense of making
them members, enfranchising, initiating and admit-
ting them into the visible church."
S. 0.— Allow me to ask you, has God instituted
any duty, which, when rightly performed, will not
be found to be u ''means of spiritual mercies V How
much more then one of the only two sacraments of
his gospel church— his kingdom upon earth ! The
facts which your reference to Abraham elicit are,
thai circumcision was the sign and seal of the bene-
fits to whicit he and his seed were called as the visi-
ble church of God upon earth ; they were thus seen
«to be a peculiar people, under peculiaT obligations
to God, and entitled to peculiar blessings." That
young and old were regarded members ol this visi-
ble church is shown hom the following statement :
« This is my covenant, which ye shall keep between
me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man
child among you shall l)e eircamicised." " And he
that is eight days old shall be circumcised among
you"-— "And my covenant" (its sign) " shall be in
your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the un-
circumcised man-child, whose ilesh of his foreskin
i not circumcised, th sold shall Ir cut off from his
^.'^^)ple" (the visible church with all its rights a .
li
le
Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 39
included
Just so
311. It is
mercies.
' children
Jews?'"
f making
nd admit-
institut(?d
, \\ill not
si" How
•nments of
irlh! The
elicit are,
ftbe bene-
asthevisi-
? tlms seen
obligations
3S." That
»I this visi-
statement :
ep between
Every man
ft'
" And he
ised among
' shall be in
And the un-
his foreskin
off fro a his
s rights a *
privileges) "he" (not his father merely) "hath broken
my covenant."
A. N. — By admitting your statement, I cannot
say that I am bound to your conclusion ; for I be-
lieve " If a Jew neglected to circumcise his child,
this important badge of God's chosen nation would
be wanting, and, in effect, the child would be cut
off from Israel, as a violator of the covenant, by de-
spising the seal of it ; not 2)ersonal,howeveY,hnt the
parent for hitn ; yet would the child be still ac-
cepted of God in the covenant of grace, and consti-
tute a part of the congrega'ion of Israel." " And as
the covenant of grace is one and the same in all
ages, as not a stake is removed, not a cord is broken,
children are still entitled to the sign of God's people
— baptism by water ;— the neglect of the parent to
secure for them that enjoined sign, will place them
in circumstances of deprivation, so far as the future
benefits of the ordinance are concerned ; but certainly
such neglect on the part of another atfects not the
children for evil in the sight of God."
S. 0. — It excit'^s in inc not a little curiosity to
know how you would make it appear that a soul
might be " cut off from his people," and yet "con-
stitute a part of the congregation of Israel;" how he
could be placed in " circumstances of deprivation,
and yet not be affected " for evil in the sight of God;
in what sense a person may suffer " deprivation,'*
" so far as the future benefits of the ordinance are
concerned," by " the neglect of the parent to secure
j»
»
40 The Relation of Children to tfi^ Visible
for him that enjoined sign," and yet make it incon-
sistent with the economy of :j?race for him to sutier
a "deprivation" of those benefits now. Tliesc, I
think, you must admit to he contradictions which
it is important to your argument to reconcile. That
the neglect or contumacy of the parent to secure
circumcision then, or baptism now, for the cliild,
would not denude it of its acceptance with God
through Christ, or of its inheritance in heaven, were
it to die in infancy, all will admit ; yet must it be
reo-arded as a reprehensible omission to neglect to
formally introduce a child into a higher and i^eculiar
relation through a significant and expressive rite,
divinely instituted, and by which relation it is in-
vested with prqreminent privileges. Circumcision
was the formal recognition of the covenant, rendered
indispensable by God on pain of excision from the
congregation of his people, and, with such act, a de-
privation, present as well as future, of those bles-
sings peculiar to that covenant, and by which his
people were to be distinguished. The covenant be-
ing the same under each dispensation, it follows,
that what a neglect of circumcision then led to, a
neglect of baptism now must also entail. Again—
See that adult dweller in Mesopotamia ; he lives
under the patriarchal dispensation ; he is moral and
upright, and, according to the light he possesses, he
« fears God and works righteousness." Will not he
be accepted of God 1 But does he stand equal to
the pious Jew, who, under his dispensation, has
walked in covenant relation with God ; or will he
hie
it incon-
1 to suffer
These, I
)ns which
le. That
to secure
the child,
with God
Lven, were
must it he
neglect to
id jxiculiar
essive rite,
3n it is in-
cumcision
t, rendered
w from the
1 act, a de-
those bles-
which his
)venant he-
, it follows,
n led to, a
, Again —
a ; he lives
s moral and
osscsses, he
Will not he
id equal to
nsation, has
or will he
Church of Chriat, Explained and V-ndkalcd. 41
rise to the same status of glory ? Assuredly not :
no more than will the latter, eitlior in time or eter-
nity, reach the position of a real Christian.
The one has one talent of privilege, the other two,
and the latter five; while tlie principle of rcAvard is
--" For unto every one that hnth shall given, and he
shall have abundance." But that which ks true of
individuals in different dispensations, is true also ot
individuals under the same dispensation. He who,
according to providential or parental disability, is
not possessed, nor can he be, of equal ligjit and pri-
vilege v/ith others, but nevertheless improves what
he has, is now, and will be in final judgment ac-
cepted of God. Whereas, he whose lot is of a supe-
rior caste, and is faithful, and again a third, who is
even more favoured, so that he lives in the full en-
dowments of gospel light and privilege, will rise
both here and hereafter in proportion to their talents
and fliithfulness in improving them. Therefore ns
they have differed in privileges, so they will difler
in the rewards which are graciously bestowed; and
let no man's eye be evil because God is good, and
acts according to his own supreme right and infinite
wisdom ; for " Just and right is he."
In full accordance with the principles involved in
the preceding remarks o,:ght the baptism oi chil-
dren to be viewed. A child to whom bnptism is
denied, under the supposition that it has no inheri-
tance in the kingdom of God until it can believe,
and thus claim it by a personal act of its own, is as
one that has received but one talent in our present
i
)
i
'till
42 The Relation of Children to the Visihle
di.po„«,tion ; n .second mny be viewed as receiving
two, who is bapti/.c<l, and tb.n.s formally recosnued
n« a member of the Christian dispensation but ol
whom it is denied that baptism has made it anr
lliin.^ or invest(-d it willi any right, or -i"^" ■■♦.»';>
preu^t interest in Christ, or the offieers of his .wUe
Church : insoimicli so, that any advantage to be
derived'from the act of baptism is reversionary,
and to be loolced fiir only when the P'-^"" f^;" !;;:
come "an active, repenting, believing, «f f*:"y §
member of a working- clunch." Bnt a third is bap-
tized; bronglit for the sacrament by parents and to a
chnrch, who ali regard it as - -f;''"*' '^ ^TS
eleanshig and renewing infh-.ence of the Holy Spin ,
„ ISO as a seal of the covenant of redemption l.>y which
is gnaranteed to the person receiving it, the provision
of gospel mercy in its fnlncss, to be applied as needed
and sought for, in believing prayer by it, or or it. A
donation of the covenant grace is believmgly asked
for in the periimnanec of the rite ; and subsequently,
instruction and prayer, with suitable diseii.line, aro
employed for the training cf the child both by the
parents and the church, the latter feeling as the loi-
mer that additional obligations were credited in the
ordinance administered to the child, and m which
they both were interested parth-s. Bnt can all tins
take place in reference to this last child and no re-
sults mark its condition which would raise it above
the other two1 Surely this should not be imag-
ined And while svieh a course of duty may
be pursued, ought it not to be so"! Let no
professing Christian indulge the idea, much less
SI<^ll
pi.
'hie
rccoiviiij^
ccof^nized
on, but ot
de it any-
vcii it any
' his visihlc
no-c to be
irersionary,
oil can bc-
^If-tlcnying
lird isbap-
tN and to a
the needed
^uly Spirit;
n by which
le provision
d as needed
or for it. A
ini>l\' asked
bscqueutly,
^ciphne, are
both by the
y as the ibr-
-ated in the
id in which
can all this
d and no re-
lise it abov(^
ot be inia^-
' duty may
? Let no
, much less
Church of Christ, Explained and Vindicated. 43
act upon it, that Avhelher a child be baptised or
not, its spirit4^ial condition is not alfected tor aVA m
the sight of the Lord ; for these words of Jehovah to
Abraham have a startling meaning, and that as
bearing upon the child itself : — ^^And the uncircum-
cisedmart child ivhose Jleah of his fo'^''es/iin is not cir-
cumcised, that soul shall he cut ojffrom his people ; he
hath broken my covenant.^'' But if the child were
circumcised, and thus became a member of the
congregation of Israel, then it wovdd as a necessary
consequence, be regarded as a member of that visi-
ble church, and become per.sonally, and at once
interested in every promise, by which every duty
could be discharged, and every privilege secured
becoming the peculiar people and witnessing church
ol the Ijord.
A. N. — I must still contend that " Baptism is the
sign" that eluldren and believers are Christ's, not
the wai) to Clnist.
8. O. — That is true of cliildren who, beermse of
their unconditional interest in Christ, according to
the purposes of infinite love, must not be left in peril
of eternal death because of the neglect of others,
and in which neglect tliev liaA^c no voluntarv con-
nection. It is also true in all exceptional cases of
adult believers, such as Cornelius, who v/as blessed
with a communication of the Holy Spirit before ho
was, or could have been, baptized by the Apostle.
God can make what exceptions to liis own rule lie
plciises, but the ride and not the exception is that
:!|.
m
ll
:
44 The Relation of Children to the ViMe
on which an argument should bo based. If tliis
principle is admitted, then the Apostk^ Peter's di-
rection to the inquirers on tlie day of Pentecost is in
point here, and baptism is seen in the very li^ht you
repudiate. "Men and brethren what shall we do?"
inquired the etifnest thronj?. The reply was—" Re-
pent and be baptized every one of you in the name
of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Here then, bap-
tism is distinctly seen as a "wa?/ to Christ;" and
what follows as distinctly intimates, that the same
act performed for our children, if it does not so unite
them to Christ as to ellect their safety from death
were they to die in infancy, yet that it obtains for
them that measure of the spirit's influence peculiar
to the Gospel dispensation, into which by the act
of baptism it was formally introduced; for the Apos-
tle adds, " the promise," tliat is of the Holy Spirit,
" is unto you, and to your children.^^
A. A^.— If what you demand were admitted, viz.
*' that the baptized children of our people are mem-
bers of our church, tlicn of course the same is true
of all the other churches of the Saints; the idea ac-
cords with Romish and Puseyitish views, exactly.
It only remains for us to adopt it practically, and
Methodism will soon become as perfect a id as spir-
itual as they are."
S. 0. — Excuse me my friend, " It remains for ns
to adopt it practically", as with our views of the re-
lation of children to the church of Christ, we are
bound to do ; and instead of drifting- towards Roman-
\ihlc
Church of Chris,, Explained and Vindicated. 45
I. If this
Peter's di-
tecost is in
y li^ht you
ill we do?"
vvas — " Kc-
[ the name
nd ye shall
) then, bap-
hrist ;" and
it the same
lot so unite
(Voni death
obtains for
Lce peculiar
by the act
r the Apos-
[loly Spirit,
tnitted, viz.
i are niein-
ime is true
he idea ac-
ivs, exaetly.
tically, and
a id as spir-
nains f()r us
vs of the re-
rist, we are
irdsKoman-
ism or Puseyism, we shall move straight forward to
the fidl dimensions of a Church of the Lord Jesus
Christ. It would surprise me much to learn that so
little dilference existed between Methodism and
Romanism, or its pitiful mimic puseyi .m, that a
practical treatment of children as members of our
church through baptism, would break the barrier,
and let us into one or other of them. No, no, my
friend, this h what some will call a ''Ruse de
guerre,'' a move more in name than in reality to
deter us from pursuing a road you would not we
should travel in. Between Methodism and Ko-
nianism there exists an impassable gulf, a.id you
may depend upon it, that if the thing you feared was
in any measure an attempt at bridging that gulf, I
would render but little assistance in that direction.
But let us do our duty to the young as well as to the
old, undeterred by bug-bear'; ;^"^ni whatever quarter
they may come.
It is evident that our Church in England is awa-
king to the importance of a more thorough action
here,— hence the institution by them of Catechumen
Classes for children. Still, I think an improvement
even on their plan, is both easy and desirable. If
meetings similar to our class-meetings,adapted to the
age and condition of our children were instituted, and
which all should be required to attend weekly, as in
the former case, when instruction, with singing and
prayer could be entered upon, I apprehend a more
efficient means would be employed for the training
of our children than any yet in use. By this means a
I
I
vm
46 The Relation of Children to the Imhle, ^c.
1h()rou"-li oversight could be rnaiiituined, and as well
asanopportaiiity of transfcvmif? them to the regular
classes Avheii their spirit and conduct would j'jstify
such an act. Thus we might preserve our youth to
the church, secure our church trom the evils of un-
scriptural membership, and not less from the grave
charge of inconsistency, viz, of receiving our chii-
dren'^formallv into our church by baptism, and then,
comparativeiv at least, treating them with neglect.
■ .^'
nd as well
he regular
Lild j'Jstify
ir youth to
vi\^ of un-
the grave
j^ our ehil-
, and then,
h neglect.
[