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 86 LAUD (Abp.) A Relation oi the Conference between William Lawd, 
 and Mr. Fisher, the Jesuite, by command of King James of ever Blessed 
 
 ,-r } 
 
 i. ■ 
 
 L 
 
 Memorie folio, old green morocco , gilt haves, large paper copy (nAin, 
 
 m ' h / Vv 
 
 by 7§in.), RARF, 1639, 
 
 Contains the Dedication to King Charles, 11 leaves. Has Autograph of “ Jo . Price, 
 Oxon, 1680, pr. — Ss. — 5 d., second-hand” : Evidently the Royalist; see Dictionary 
 of National Biography Volume 46, p. 331. 
 
 
v\ 
 
 
 
 
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 Ih/n* 
 
 OF 
 
 The Conference 
 
 
 BETWEENE 
 
 WILLIAM LAWD, 
 
 Then,L rd ' Bishop of S c< D a v i d s 5 
 
 HOW, 
 
 Lord Arch-Bishop of C ANTERBVRY: 
 
 • <iA nd zHl r ' F ifher the fefuite , by the Command of 
 
 King JAMES of ever 
 
 BlejJed'Memorie . 
 
 W ith an Anfwer to fuchrExceptions as 
 
 A. C. takes againjl it. 'A 
 
 • * V 1 £ 
 
 BythefaydMoft Reverend 'Bother in God, 
 
 WILLI Aift, '' 
 
 Lord Arch-Bifliop of Canterbury. 
 
 LONDON, 
 
 Printed by ^R^chard ‘Badger, Printer to the Prince 
 
 H I S HI G H N E S. 
 
 MDCXXXIX- 
 
 JTS, 
 
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 BY THE GRACE OE 
 
 God, King of Great Britaine,France and 
 
 Ireland, Defender of the Faith iyc. 
 
 DREAD SOVERAIGNE: 
 
 HIS T radt will neede 
 Patronage, as great 
 as may bee had, that's 
 Y ours. Yet , 'when I 
 firjl printed part of it, 
 f prejumed not to a slip - 
 any, but thruH it out at 
 the end ofanotbersLa- 
 bours , that it might 
 feem,at leaft, to have the fame Patron, your Roy all 
 Father ofBlejfed Memorie , as the other Workp, on 
 which this attended, bad. ‘But now I humbly beg for 
 it Your Majefties Patronage 5 Andleatewithall, 
 that I may declare to Y our moft Excellent Ma- 
 jeftie the Cmkwby this TraB was then written : 
 
 <iA % Why 
 
the light l 
 ut rather 
 it comes 
 ddition : 
 ajle to the 
 
 tten, was 
 nces with 
 
 C/hy it fayd Jo lor r f e h looked "" 
 
 Why it was not the) no dot fit to go a 
 he led abroad by the f mer IV orfe : 
 now forth both w> h . iteration, an 
 e. A nd why thisf di >n i tad?. not mi 
 Prelle, then it . hd e. 
 
 TbeC*ufe); ' hi )r ;ouifc was 
 tout I Was, at the ti of t&efi Qmj 
 M after Fiftier, Ttfhop of S. Davio': And not 
 only directed, but Commanded by my Tleffed 
 Maher King James to this Conference with 
 *May. 2 4. 16 a 2 him . Hee , a when we met , began with a great T ro- 
 te ft ation offeeking the Truth only, and that for it 
 felfe. tsi nd certainly , T ruth, cfpeci ally in Religi- 
 
 on is Jo to be fought, or not to be found. He that feeks 
 
 sups is an h< t- a Tfnian * Bias, or any * Other, will runne 
 
 ^ionfremaii (fount er , when he comes neare it , and notfnde it, 
 fittes not our though he com e within kenning of it. nd therfore 
 l did moil heartily wtfh, I could ha’ne found he Je- 
 lu itt upon that f air e way he prote fled to goe. ajfter 
 ah fi\ ^Conference ended, I went, whither my Duty 
 
 A dv erf arts Lem called mee, to my Diocefte ; not fufpeBing any thing 
 Amf’Xan o’ fhould be made Tublike , that was both Qommand- 
 £ I mfnThn e ^> a ndtiBed in private. For VV. I. the Tubli- 
 tofecom smI fier of ^ oe delation oftbefirfl (Conference with T>. 
 
 lerfe to 
 Truth. 
 
 b In his EpifMe , ^ r 
 
 -o the Reader. was ftraightfy charged upon his Allegiance, 
 from his Majefty that then was, not to let out. 
 
 aI ’ :e ' °d we J t\ latwn °T We P r!t conference with V. 
 the VVhite (the l^eTeyerend and learned Tifhop of 
 jiftie £h" ) b confeffes plainely , That Mafter Fijher 
 
 \ 
 
 or 
 
or Publifh what palled in fome of thele Con- 
 ferences,till He gave Licence, and untill M r ; 
 
 Ft (her and they might meete, and agree, and 
 Confirme under their hands, what was faid on 
 both fides. Hefayes fart her, that J M . Fifher went * iiti. 
 
 to D .White’s houfe, to know what he would 
 fay about the Relation,which he- had fet out. So 
 then, belike Ad. Filher had fet out the Relation of 
 
 that Conference , before t, Thefe words were in my former Epiftle, And, 
 
 herpent to T>. White , to A - c .- check i , at d J cf ? Ke of , t , h = 
 
 . , . - , and layes : That the jefuitc did not at all Jo much as 
 
 (peak about it. Ana this not. in Speech, and much leffe in Papers publifh This, or\ 
 * • tjn /• / • either of the other typo Conferences mth D r . White* 
 
 mthjtanatng the iSjngs re- t uihe Was forc'd unto it by falfe reports given out ta 
 
 ftrzint ulmn him ubnnhu F ivate di Ji race ' a " d the FO Hake of the Cathc- 
 
 II ralll p l l ) UpO l l IS frje Caufe. Nor then did he Jpread Tapers abroad, 
 
 Allegiance. j Yet to Z). but one ly delivered a very few Copies to fpeciall fiends, 
 y , » • r II and this not With an intent to Calumniate the Tifhop, 
 
 VVbite tts fajaheewent } &C. A.C. inches Preface before his Relation of this. 
 1 TP J 1 Conference. Truly I knew of no Reports then 
 
 vUXtO ypb&t OtbC'f LfTlCty tbCYi given out to the prejudice of thcfefuite's either 
 
 lupUt A & COPTIC UpOTl him y L dome, where I heard little. But howfoever, here’s 
 
 cannot fee. For he stent to ? m ° a P>f nc c ° nfdri01 ] .by a. c of that which 
 
 ' ne itruggles to deny. Fie [ayes he did not (preaa 
 
 his houfe to folOKP y what he Capers. What then ? What ? Why he did but 
 IIP j | d deliver ffopies. Why but doth not he that deli- 
 
 would lay about that tve* vers Copies (for Inflance,of a Libell ) fpread it? 
 
 Utinn nfrht* Pnnferpnrp J e *’ but he Mvered lut a ™ryfew Copies. Be it 
 lauon or me CyUIirci cnee, £>: I doe not fey, How many lie fpred. He con- 
 
 w ch he had fet out before. ^ S , th !,? /s 'fd clivcred f > ne> , th ? u ? h v< 7 fe ' v J 
 
 ( And lie that delivers any, fpreads it abroad. For 
 
 III my ab fence from i^on^ what can he tell, whcntheCopiesareonceontof 
 
 I 71 >r C?* n f J his power, how many may Copie them out, and 
 
 don, A1 • F lllier Ujed me tts fpread them farther? Yea Jbut he delivered them to Jpc± 
 ~ if TP „ *./ ±L L C ... Ciall fiends. Be it fo too : The more fpeciall friends 
 Stiell* JfOT With t be fame Lave t hey were to him, the Idle indifferent would they 
 
 of hu Allegiance, and no be to me iP eyaps my more fpeciall Enemies. Yea, 
 
 J ID 7 but all this Was Without an intent to Cabtmnutate me , 
 
 WlOTe ^ hcc fpred abroad Well. Be that fotoo. But if X be Calumniaated 
 X) r . ^ thereby, his Intention will not Kelpe it. And 
 
 1 apeXS or this C> onrcrecc, whether the Copjcs,which he delivered, have not 
 f II i r * 1 • ; in them ^ •lumny againfi me> I leave to the InJ 
 
 aUII CnOUgh Q* pal tialltie different r R^ .:dern f this Difcourfe to Iudge^ 
 
 A y to 
 
to his Caufe,and more full of Calumny againft 
 mee. Hereupon I Was in a manner forced to ghe 
 M. Fifhers Relation Conference an An- 
 fwer, and to publijh it. Though for fome Reafons, 
 and thofe then approved by Authority , it was 
 thought ft I fhould fet it out in my Chaplains 
 Cfanie, R. B. and not in myowne. To which I 
 readily fubmitted. - ' ; V 
 
 '1 here was a Caufe alfo , why at the firjl ', the Dif- 
 courfe upon this Coferenc z fayed fo long, before 
 it could endure to be prejfed. For the Conference 
 Was in May, \6iz. And M. Filherx Taper was 
 fcattered and made common , fo common , that a 
 Copy was brought to mee ("being none ofhisfpe- 
 ciallfriencls_) before Michaelmas. And yet this 
 Difcourfe was not printed till A prill. 1 6zi j.. U\(ow 
 that you may fnow how this happened, I Jhall fay 
 for myfelfe. It was not my Idleneile, nor my V n- 
 willingnefle to right both my f el fe, and the (faufe, 
 again]} the Jefuite, and the Paper, which he had 
 fpred, that occafiond this delay. For I had then 
 Moil Honourable Witnefies, and hawe fome 
 yet living. That this Difcourfe (Juch as it was, 
 when A.C. nibled at if) was fnifhed long before 
 f could perfwade my felfe to let it come into T ublihfi 
 View. And this was caufed partly by my owne 
 Backwardnefle to deale with thefe men, whom I 
 have ever obferved to be great T retenders for 
 Truth, andYnity, butyet fuchas will admit ne'u 
 
 ther. 
 
neither, unleffe They and theirT action may prevaile 
 in all • As if no Reformation had beene necejjary . 
 And partly becaufe there were about the fame time 
 three Conferences held with Fiflier. Of thefe 
 this was the Third- And could not therefore con - 
 leniently come abroad into the world, till the two 
 former were ready to leade the way, which till that 
 time, they were not. 
 
 <*A nd this is in part the Rea f on alfo , why 
 this Traci crept into the end of a larger IF nl^e. 
 For jince that Worke contained in a manner the 
 fubslance of all that paffed in the two former 
 Conferences : tjfnd that this Third in divers 
 points concurred with them, and depended on them , 
 f could not thinke it Subftantive enough, to fland 
 alone. 'But befides this Affinity betweene the 
 Conferences, I was willing to have itpaffeas filenu 
 ly as it might, at the end of another W'orke, and fo 
 perhaps little to be looked after , becaufe f could 
 not hold it worthy, nor can f yet, of that (jreat Du* 
 ty, and Service, which f owe to my ‘Deare Mother, 
 the Church ofEngland. 
 
 ‘Tkereisacaufe alfo, why it looses now abroad 
 againewith Alteration and Addition. And ’tis f 
 fit fjhould givey our Majefty an Account of that 
 too. This T raclwas fir'sl printed in theyeare 1624.. 
 And in theyeare \6%6.anotherfefnite,or the fame , 
 under the name of A. C . printed a delation of this 
 Conference, and therein tco,^ Exceptions to feme 
 
 ‘Particulars, 
 
Particulars , and endeavoured to Qonfute (ome 
 ’Tbit: vs deliver’d therein by me. Afow being in 
 yeares, and unwilling to dye in the )dx\ites debt, I 
 have in this Second Edition done as much for 
 him, andfomewhat more. For •. . . up 
 
 and detrme, and labour to pick a hole t.e •</ 
 there, iv here he thought he m igb t fa fieri, an dwhe t 
 Was too hard for him, let it alone. But I have gone 
 thorough with him ; And I hope, given him a full 
 Confutation : or at least (itch a Bone to gnaw, as 
 may (hake his teeth, if he l oof not to it. <iAnd of 
 my Addition to this Difcourfe , tbisisthe Caufe- 
 But of my Alteration of (ome things in it, this. 
 A. C. his Curiofty to winnow me made me in a 
 more curious manner fall to hiring of my felfe , and 
 that which had formerly pafl my Penne. And 
 though C Ibleffe Cfod for it) I found no caufe to alter 
 any thing that belonged either to the Subftance, or 
 Courfc of the Conference : Yet fomewhat I did 
 fnde, which needed better, and cleerer expreision- 
 st/f 'id that I have altered, well knowing f must ex - 
 peel Curious Obfervers on all hands. 
 
 Norn, Why this Additionall Anfwer to the 
 Relation of A. C. came no fooner forth, hath a 
 Caufe too, and I Jball truly reprefent it. A. C. his 
 R elation of the Conference, was fet out. 1626. 
 1 %new not of it in feme yeares after. For it was 
 \ d, ’ted among divers other things of Uhg nature , 
 et ' °r by M Fiflier himfelfe, or his friend A. C. 
 v- / When 
 
 I 
 
> ^ ' * • * / * y t 
 
 When I faw it , I read it over carefully , and found 
 my [elf e not a little rvrongd in it, but the Church 
 of England, and indeed the Caufe of Religion 
 much more. I was before this time cj Your 
 Majefties Great Grace, and undejervea favour 
 made Deane of Your Majefties Chappell 
 Roy all, and a CounfeJ’lor ofState, and hereby, 
 as th f Occafions ofthofe times mere , made too much 
 a Stranger to my Bookes. Tet for all my Bufie 
 Imployments , it was jlill in my 7 bought s to give 
 A. C. an Anfwer. But then I fell into a moil 
 dangerous Feaver ; And though it p leafed God 
 beyond all hope to ref ore mee to health , yet long I 
 was before / recover’d fuch frength as might ena- 
 ble mee to undertake fuch a Service. And fince that 
 time , how I have beene detained, and in a manner 
 forced upon other many, various, and Great Oc- 
 cafions , your Majefty hpowes bef. zAnd how 
 of late / have beene ufed by the Scandalous and 
 Scurrilous Pennes of fome bitter men (whom I 
 heartily befeech God to forgive') the world hptowes • 
 
 Little Leafure , and lejfe Encouragement given me 
 
 to zAnfwer a Iefuite, or Jet upon other Services , 
 
 while I am under the Prophets affliction. Pfal. pftijo.ip.jo 
 
 50. betweene the Mouth that fpeakes wicked- 
 
 ndfe,and the tongue that lets forth deceite, 
 
 and flander mee as thicke , as if I were not 
 
 their owne Mothers Sonne, hi the midfl of 
 
 thefe Libellous out-cries againflmefome Divines 
 
 S 6 f 
 
V-» 
 
 
 * S. Ang.Serm. 
 6 TDe Diver - 
 fis y c. 10. Hec 
 fpeakes of 
 Chrifl: difput- 
 ing in the T cm* 
 pie with the 
 Elders of the 
 I ewes. And they 
 heard Chrift 
 the Eflentiall 
 Word of the 
 Father with 
 admiration to 
 aftonifhment , 
 yetbcleevcdhim 
 not : S. Ln!g. 2. 
 47. And the 
 Word thei 
 fpake to them 
 by a mcanes 
 they thought 
 not of, namely 
 per Filium Dei 
 in pnero, by the 
 Sonne of God 
 himfelfc under 
 the Vailc of ou' 
 humane natui 
 
 of great Note, and Worth in the Chur ch c ante 
 to mee, One by One, and no One flowing of the 
 Others Camming (as to mee they protcfied) and per- 
 firaded wdbme to Reprint this Conference , in 
 my omne Name. This tuy thought mould v indi- 
 cate my Reputation , mere it generally htomne to be 
 mine. I C onfejfe 1 loolpd round about thefe Men , 
 and their Motion • CAnd at laft, my Thoughts 
 ■ morning much upon themfelves , I began to per (made 
 my felfe , that I had heene too long diverted from 
 this necejfary Worhp. And that perhaps there might 
 be In voce hominum, Tuba Dei ,in the fill voice 
 of men, the LorJTrumpet of God , which founds 
 many majes,fometimes to the eares, and fometimes 
 to the hearts of men, and by raeanes which they thinbje 
 not of. And as * S. Auguftine fipeafes, A Word 
 of God there is, Quod nunquam facet, fed non 
 femper auditur : which though it be never filent , 
 yet is not aim ayes heard. T hat tt is never filent, is 
 his great Mercy • and that it is not aim ayes heard, 
 is not the leait of our Mikry. Vpon this Motion l 
 too^e time to deliberate : And had fcarce time for 
 that, much lejje for the JVorfe. Yet at lafl to every 
 of thcfic m en f gave this Anjwer. That M. Fifh er, 
 or A. C. for him, had beene bufie with my former 
 Vtfcourfe , and that f would never reprint that, un- 
 l I might gain e time enough to -An fiver that , 
 
 ich A. C. had charged a frejh both upon mee , 
 
 ' thefifaufe . If hi l e my Thoughts were thus at 
 
 worfe, 
 
workc, Y our M ajefty fell upon the fame Thing , 
 and wasgracioufy pleajednot to Command, but 
 toWiihmetoreprint this Conference, and in 
 mine own 'N.amt-And this openly at the C ounce*- 
 Table in Michaelmas-Terme. i6^j. f did not 
 hold it ft to deny, having in all the fourfe of my fer- 
 ytee obeyed your Majejlies Honourable, and full 
 Motions., wr Commands : Tut Craved learve to 
 (here what little Icajure L had to doeit,<mdvebat In- 
 conveniences might attend upon it. When this did 
 not ferve to excufe mee , 1 humbly fubmitted td 
 that, which f hope was Gods Motion in Your 
 Majefties. And having thus layd all that Con- 
 cerns this Difcourfe before yottr Gracious and 
 moll Sacred Majefty^wo/Z humbly prefen tyou 
 \r ith the Booke it felfe , which as f heartily pray 
 You to protect , fo doe f wholly Jubmit it to the 
 Church of England, with my Prayers for Her - 
 Projferity , and my Wijhes thatf were able to doe. 
 Her better Service. 
 
 fharve thus acquainted Your Ad aj e (ty with 
 all Occafons, which both formerly, and now againe 
 have led this T radt into the light . fn all which f 
 am a faithfullpelater of all Pafages , but am not 
 very well Jdtisfed , who is now my Adverfary. 
 M. FifherWas at the Conference. Since that f 
 finde AC. ty the print. <tA nd whether The fe be 
 two, or but Owe Tefal te, f know not • face farce 
 One amongfi them, goes under One Name. Tut 
 
 §x for 
 
I 
 
 A. C.p,6j, 
 
 for my own e part (and the Error is not great, iff 
 mijlabej f thinkp they are One , and that One, 
 M. Fifher. That which induces me to thinfe Jo, 
 is Firft, the (jreat fnwardnejje of A. C. With 
 M. Fifher, which is Jogreat,as may well bethought 
 to neighbour upon Identity. Secondly, the Stile 
 of A. C. is Jo likp M. Fifhers, that f doubt it 
 Was but one and the fame hand that mood d the 
 penne. Thirdly, A. C ./ayes exprefly That the 
 Jefuite himfelfe made the Relation of the firft 
 Conference with D. White : <t And in the 
 Title Page of the Worhp, That Relation as well 
 asThis,isfaidtobe made by A.C. and publijhed 
 by VV. I. Therefore A. G. and thefefmte are one 
 and the fameperfon , or els one of the fe places hath 
 noTruthinit. 
 
 fapw if it be M. Fifher himfelfe , under the 
 
 Relation* of 1 ' ^d mco f A.C.then what needs theje *words: The 
 thisConference Jefuite could be content to let pafte the Chap- 
 
 yA C ’ lainesCenfure, as one of his Ordinary perfe- 
 cutions for the Catholicke Faith, but A. C. 
 thought it necelfary for the Common Caufe to 
 defend the fincerity and T ruth of his Relation, 
 and the Truth of fome of the Chiefe Heads 
 contained in it. fn which Speech giye me leawe 
 to obferve to your Sacred Majefty, how griewoufly 
 you fufer him, and his Fellowes to he perfected for 
 the Catholicke Faith, whenyour poore Subject and 
 Servant, cannot fa out a true Copie of a Conference 
 
 . ‘ held 
 
held with the Jefuite, juffu Superiorum, but by 
 and by the man is perfecuted. (fod forbid I fhoula 
 eyer offer to per/wade a Perfection in any kind , 
 orpradife it in the lead. For to my remembrance , 
 f hone not given him , or bis, fo much as courfe 
 Language. ’But on the other fde, Cjod forbid too, 
 That your Majefty fhould let both Lawes and 
 Diicipl'ine feepe forfeare of the Name of Perfe- 
 ction, an din the meane time let M. Fifher and 
 his Fellows Angle in all parts of your Domini- 
 ons for your Subjects, Ifinyour Grace and Good- 
 neflejo« will fare their Perfons : Yet f humbly 
 befeech %u fee to it. That they be not fujfefd to lay 
 either their fFt ?eles , or baite their Hookes, or caft 
 their Netsm every fireame, left that Tentation 
 grow both toogenerall, and too flrong. I know they 
 ha"»e many Devices to works their Ends • But if 
 they will needs be fifhing, let them ufe none , but 
 * Law full Netts. Lets have no difjolving of 
 Oathes of Allegiance : 3\o depofing, no hiding 
 ^Kings : Jfp blowing up of States to fettle Qupd 
 V olumus, that which fame they would have in the 
 Church: with many other Nets, as dangerous as 
 thefe. For if their P rofefsio n ofReligion were as 
 goood, as they pretend it is, if they cannot (fompaffe 
 it by Good Meanes,^ am fure they ought not to 
 atttemptit by Bad. For if they will doe evill, 
 that good may come thereof, the Apoftle teds 
 me, Their Damnation's juft, Bpm . 3 . 
 
 . $3 K ™ 
 
 * And S. Ah g*. 
 is very fullV 
 gainft the ufe 
 of retia 3 
 
 unlavvfullNets. 
 And faith the 
 Fifhermen the- 
 felves have 
 greateft caufc -• 
 to take heed of 
 them. S, Ah?* 
 . ae Fide & 
 Oper. c , J 7, 
 
 Tons. 3 . 8 - 
 
Cftow as I would humblyBefteecbY our Majefty 
 to hope a ferious Watch upon theft Fifher-men , 
 which pretendS. Peter, but fijh not with His Net : 
 So would ft not have You negleB another fort of An*- 
 glers in a Shallower Water. For they have fome ill 
 Nets too. Wind if they may fhread them, when, 
 and where they will , Cjod knowes what may become 
 of it. Fhefe have not fo strong a Backe abroad , as 
 the Romanics haye , but that’s no <s Argument to 
 ftuffer them to encreafte . They may grow to equall 
 -Strength with Number. And Factious People 
 at home, oft what Sedt,or fond Opinion foeyer they 
 be, are not to be neglected. P artly , becauje they are 
 Jo Neare. Wlnd’tis ever a dangerous Fire , that 
 begins in the Bed-ftraw. And partly becaufe all 
 thofe Domefticke Eyills, which threaten a Rent 
 in Church, or State are with far moreftafety pre^ 
 vented by VVifdome , then punijhed by Juitice. 
 <zA nd would men conjider it right , they are far more 
 beholding to that man, that keepes them from falling, 
 then to him that tabs them up, though it be to jet the 
 Arnie or the Leg that’s broken in the Fall. 
 
 fn this Difcourfe ft have no aime to difpleafe 
 any , nor any hope to pleafte all. ftf ft can helpe on 
 to Truth in the fthurch, and the Beace of the 
 Church together, f Jhall be glad, be it in any me a' 
 Jure. 3\or Jhall ft ftpare to fpeafe Necefiary 
 T ruth, out of too much Love ofPca.cc. Uftor tbrujl 
 on Vnnecefjary Truth to the "Breach oftthat Peace, 
 which 
 
) 
 
 which once broken is not fo eafily fodcr d agasne. And 
 if for NecelTary T ruths Jake oneiy , any man mil 
 be of ended, nay take, nay j, natch at that o fence, 
 which u not given , l (now no fence for that. ’Tu 
 T ruth, andf mujl tell it. ’Tis the Go (pell, and I 
 muff reach it. i Cor. 9. And far fafer it is in this I Or. <?» 1 6 , 
 fife to beare Anger from men , then a Woe from 
 Cjod. And where the Foundations ot Faith are 
 Jhaken,be it by Superftition or Prophanenefle, 
 he that puts not to his hand, as frmely as he Can to 
 Jupportthem, is too wary, and hath more (fare of 
 himfelfe, then of the Caufe of Chrift. <tA nd ’tit 
 a VVarinefle that brings more danger in the end, 
 then itjhmnes. For the Angell of the Lord ijju' 
 edout a furfeagainjlthe Inhabitants of Meroz, 
 becaufe they came not to helpe the Lord, to helpe the 
 Lord againH the mighty . fudg. 5. I know ’tis a s 3 . 
 Great eafe to let every Thing be as it will, and every 
 man beleeve , and doe as he list. Tut whether 
 Governors h/ State or Church doe their duty 
 
 ,fini e this is an effedt of no 
 
 t • 
 
 The Church oTChrift upon Earth may bee 
 compared to a Hive of Bees, and that can bee no 
 where (0 jleddily placed in this world, but it will 
 betnfome danger • <tAnd men that care neither for 
 the Hive, norths Bees, haveyet a great minde to 
 the Honev* (tAnd having once tailed the fweet of 
 the Churches Maintenance [wallow that for 
 t Honey 
 
 therewhile,is ejdy feene 
 Kins in Ifrael. fudg. 1 ' 
 
 
Honey, which one day mil be more bluer then 
 Gall in their Bowells. 3 ffw the King and the 
 Prieft^ore then any other, are bound to lookp to the 
 Integrity of the (fhurch in Dodirine and Man- 
 ners, and that in the firft place . For that’s by farre 
 the Beft Honey in the Hive. But in the fc cond 
 place. They mujl be fare full of the Churches 
 Maintenance too , els the Bees [hall make Ho- 
 ney for others, and have none left for their owne ne- 
 ceffary fuflenance, and then all’s lofl . For we fee it 
 in daily and common ufe, that the Honey is not 
 taken from the Bees, but they are defrayed firjl. 
 
 (pw in this great andBufie IV orkp, the King and 
 the Prieft mull not feare to put their hands to the 
 Hive, though they be fure to be ftung. c iA nd (lung 
 by the Bees,whcfe Hive and Houfe they preferve. 
 ft veas King Davids Qafe (Cj od grant it be neyer 
 Yours._) They came about mee [faith the 
 P1ii.118. i2. pf a J, jxg,') * ]iJ ie BeesSThis was hard ufa e enough, 
 at tiding unto- f ome profi t,fome Honey might thus begotten in 
 
 the End. dJnd that’s the Kings fafe. But when 
 'mftfnrtUis it comes to the Prieft, the Cafe is alter’d, They come 
 clffcZtJ*' a bout him like V V aspes , or like Hornets rather, all 
 caiv: «*Pfai. fting, and no Honey there. And all this many times 
 for no offence , nay fometimesforScrvicc done them , 
 would they fee it. Butyou know whofaid: Behold 
 I come (hortly, and my reward is with mee, to 
 give to every man according as his VVorkes 
 Revel. 22 ii. Ihali bee. five l . zz. <iAnd he himfelfe is fo 
 
 * exceeding 
 
i 
 
 * l _ t - . , . . f 
 
 * exceeding great a Reward, as that the mani- 
 fold flings which are in the World, howfocvcr they 
 
 fmart here , are nothing when they are prejjed out 
 with that exceeding weight of Glory, which 
 Jhall be revealed : Rom. 8 . 
 
 C\(bw one Thing more let me be bold to Ob- 
 Jerye to Your JVIajefty in particular, concerning 
 Your Great Charge,. the Church of England. 'Tis 
 in an hard Condition. Shee profefjes the Ancient 
 Catholike Faith • And yet the Romanifl: con- 
 demnes Her of Novelty in her Doctrine. Shee 
 praBifes Church Government, as it hath beene 
 in ufe in all Ages , and all Places, where the 
 Church of ChriB hath taken any footing , both in , 
 and ewerjince the Apoftles hTimes- <tAndyet the 
 Separatift condemned Her for Antichriftianilme 
 in her Hifciphne. F he plains truth is, She is between 
 ihefe two FaBions, as betweene two Milflones, and 
 unleffe Your Majefty lookg to it, to VVhofe 
 T raft She is committed, Sheell begrownd to pow- 
 der, to an irrepairable both Difkonour , and lojfeto 
 this Kingdome. And’ tis Very Tdpniarkeable, that 
 while both thefe preffe hard upon the Church of 
 England , both of them Crye out upon Perfec- 
 tion , like froward ( hildren, which fcratch, and 
 kicke, an dbitc, andyet crye out all the while, as if 
 them (elves were killed. Cfow to the Romanifl f 
 ) hall fay this ■ fhe Errors of the Church of 
 Rome aregrowne now (in any of them) yery Old. 
 <tA'nd when Errors are growne by Age , and 
 
 * Continuance 
 

 * There is no 
 other difference 
 betvveene Vs 3 c 
 r Kome i then be- 
 cwixc a Church 
 miferably Cor- 
 rupted, and hap- 
 pily purged, &c. 
 Jof. Hall. B. of 
 Exon . in his 
 Apologecicall 
 Advertifement 
 to the Reader. 
 p. ip 2 , Appro- 
 ved by Tbo . 
 Morton , B. 
 then of Cry. & 
 Licb . now of 
 Durefme. in the 
 Letters printed 
 by the B % of Ex- 
 eter. in Ivs Trea- 
 tffe called. The 
 Reconciler, />. 6 8 
 And D. Fie la. 
 in his Appen. 
 to the third part, 
 f. 2.. where he 
 cites Calv.to the 
 fame purpoie L. 
 
 * S. Matth.15.14 
 
 Continuance to flrength, they which fheai<e for the 
 Truth, though it be farre Older, are ordinarily 
 challenged for the Bringers mo/Nevv Opinions. 
 1 zAndtbereisno Greater Abfurdity (lining this 
 day in Chriflendomc, then that the Reformati- 
 on of an Old Corrupted Church, will we, mil 
 wee, mud be tafen for the Building of a New. 
 zAndwerenotthis fo,we fhould newer be troubled 
 with that idle and impertinent Queflion of theirs: 
 Where was your Church before Luther ? 
 For it wasjujl there , where their sis mu % One, 
 and the fame Church dill, no doubt of ii at. One 
 in Subfiance, but not one in Condition of flats 
 and purity ; Their part oj the fam e Church re- 
 maining in Corruption : and Our part of the fame 
 Church under Reformation. The fame Naaman, 
 and he a Syrian [till, but Leprous with them, 
 and Cleanfed with us- The fame man dill. And 
 for the Seperatifl, and him that lay es his Cj rounds 
 for Separation or Change of Difoipline, though 
 all heefayes, or can fay, be in Truth of Divinity, and 
 among Learned Men little better then ridiculous : 
 yet fnce thefe fond Opinions have gain’d fome 
 ground among your people ; tofuch among them as 
 are wilfully/ef to follow their blinde Guides, 
 thorough thicke and thin, till * they fall into the 
 Ditch together, f fall fay nothing. ''But for fo 
 many of them, asmeane well, and are oncly milled 
 by Artifice and Cunning; foncerning them, 
 fjhadfay thus much only. T hey are Bells of pa f mg 
 
 V 
 
good mttt\eand tuneable enough ofthemfehes, and 
 in their owne difpofition • and a world of pity it is, 
 that they are Rung jo inferably out of Tune, as 
 they are, by them which haye gotten power in and 
 over their Confciences. ajlnd for this there is yet 
 Remedy enough but how long there rdll bee,ff 
 know not. 
 
 Much talking there is (Bragging, Your Ma- 
 jetyy may call if on oth fides. *±A nd when they are 
 in their ruffe, the, both exceed all Moderation, 
 andT ruth too • Sofarre till both Lips and Penns 
 open for all the [For Id like a Purfe without mo- 
 ney; Ufothing comes out of this , andthatwhichis 
 worth nothing out of them. And yet this nothing 
 is made fo great, as if the Salvation of Soules, that 
 Greatworkeof the Redeemer of the World, the 
 Sonne of God, could not be efecled without it. Tlnd 
 while the onefaBion cryes up the Church aboye the 
 Scripture^W the other the Scripture to the neglect 
 and Contempt of the Church, which the Scripture 
 it felfe teaches men both to honour, and obey : They 
 ha"ve fo farre endangered the Beliefe of the One, 
 and the Authority of the Other , as that neither 
 hath its Due from a great part of Aden. Whereas 
 according to Chriffs 1 nftitution , 7 he Scripture, 
 where Its plaine, fhould guide the Church ; And 
 the Church, where there’s 'Doubt or Difficulty, 
 Jioould expound the Scripture ; Yetfo, as neither the 
 Scripture fhould be forced, nor the Church Jo 
 bound up, as that upon fufl and farther Evidence, 
 
 * z Shee 
 
Shee may not re’sif that 'which in any Qafe hath Jlipt 
 by Her. What Succejfe this Great Diftemper, 
 caufed by the Oollifon of two fuch Factions, may 
 horse, f foots net, f cannot Prophefie. This I 
 foots , That the ufe which iFife men Jhould mafo 
 of other mens falles, is not to falltsith them ■ And 
 the ufe, which Pious and Religious men Jhould 
 mafo of thefe great Flawesin Chriftianity, is not 
 to Joyne with them that mafo them, nor to helve to 
 dijlocate thofe maine Bones in the Body, which 
 being once put out of loynt, will not eafly be fee 
 againe. And though f cannot Prophefie, I feare 
 That Atheifme, and Irreligion gather Strength, 
 while the T ruth is thus weafoed by an V nwor thy 
 way of Contending for it. And while they thus (fen- 
 tend, neither part (fonfider,. that they are in a way, 
 to induce upon themfelves, and others, that Con- 
 trary Extreame, which they feme mofi both to 
 feare, and oppofe. 
 
 Befides : This f have ever Obfersed, That 
 many Rigid Profeflors have turn’d Roman Ca- 
 tholikes, that Turne base beene more 1 efui- 
 ted then any other : zAnd fuch Romanics as 
 base changdfrom them , have for the mofi part 
 quite leaped oSer the Meane, and beene as Rigid 
 the other way, as Extremity it felfe. And this, if 
 there be not both Grace, and VVifdome to gO' 
 verne it, is a very Naturall Motion. For a Man 
 is apt to thmfo he can never rmnefarre enough from 
 that, which he once begins to hate • zA nd doth not 
 
 Confder 
 
 \ 
 
 
Ifi *. I t . . •> 
 
 Confider tberewhik, Th- where Religion Cor- 
 rupted is the thing he ha es, a Fal cy may caftly 
 be put upon him. For he ought to hate the Cor- 
 ruption which depraves Religion, and to runne 
 from it : but from no part of Religion it felfe, 
 which he ought to Love , and 'fever en ce, ought bee 
 to depart. And this I haye Obferved farther : 
 That no One thing hath made Confcientious 
 men more wavering in their ownemindes, or more 
 apt-, and cafe to be drawne afdc from the fncenty 
 of Religion profeffed in the Church of En- 
 gland, then the Want of Uniforme and Decent 
 Order in too many f hutches of the Kingdome. 
 vAndthe Roman ills have beetle apt to Jay , The 
 Houfes of God could not be fujferd to lyefo Na- 
 ftily (as in fome places they have done ) were the 
 True worfhip ofGod objeryedin them : Or did 
 theF eople tbinkg that fuch it were. ’Tts true, the 
 Inward VV orihip of the Heart , is the Great 
 Service of God, and no Service acceptable with - 
 out it: But the Externall worfhip of God in his 
 (Jhurch is the Great VVhtnelfe to the World , 
 that Our heart Hands right in that Service of 
 God. Fake this away, or bring it into (Jon tempt, 
 and what Light is there left to fhine before n len, 
 that they may fee our Devotion, and glorifie 
 our Father which is in Heaven ? And to deale 
 clearely with Your Majefty, Thefe Thoughts 
 are they, and no other, which have made me labour 
 Jo much, as 1 have done, for Decency and an 
 
 * 5 Orderly 
 
Orderly fettlement of the External! W orfliip of 
 God in the Church. For of that which zr Inward 
 there can be no W itnefle among men , nor no Ex- 
 ample for men. Now no Ext email A cl ion m the 
 world can be Uniforme without feme Ceremo- 
 nies. e. And thefe in Religion, the Ancienter they 
 bee, the better, fo they may ft Time and Place. 
 Too many Over-burden the Service of God- 
 And too few leave it nailed. And farce any T hing 
 hath hurt Religion more in thefe broken I imes , 
 then an Opinion in too many men, That, becaufe 
 Rome bad thrufi feme Vnnecejfary, and many Su- 
 per fitious Ceremonies upon the Church, therefore 
 the Reformation mujl have none at all ■ Not 
 confidering therewhile, That Ceremonies are the 
 Hedge that fence the Subftancc of R eligion from 
 all theIndignities,whichVrop>hmcncffe and Sacri- 
 ledge too Cot nmonly put upon it. And a Great 
 Weafneffe it is , not to fee the ftrength which Cere- 
 moni es (Things weahp enough in \hemfelves,God 
 f low e s') adde even to Religion it felfe • But a 
 farre greater to fee it, and yet to Cry 7 hem downe, 
 all, and without C boy ce, by wuich their mofl hated 
 Adverfaries climb’d up, and a Id not crie up them- 
 fehes, and their caufe,as they , », but by them . And 
 Divines of all the reft might le. ie, and teach this 
 ' Wifdi mcif they would, fm. hey fee all other 
 P rofelsions, which helpe to beare „. v wne their Ce- 
 remonies, keepe up their owne therewhile ■ and that 
 to the highejl. 
 
fhave beenetoo bold to detaine Y our Majefty fo 
 long ; But my Cjriefe to fee Chriftendome bleeding 
 irfDifjenfm, and which is worfe, triumphing in her 
 oWneBhod , and mofi angry with them ghat would ' flu' 
 dy her Peace, hath thus Iran (ported me. For truely it 
 (fannot but grieve any man, that hath BoweJJs, to 
 Jee All men leeking, but as S. Paul foretold, Thil.%. 
 The ir owne things, and not the things which are 
 Jclus Charts, Sua, Their ownefurely. For the 
 Gofpell ofChrift hathnothing todoewiththenr.And 
 to fee Religion fo mucb,[o Zealoufiy pretended, and 
 called upm o made but the Stalking-ffoi fe, to fhooie 
 at other Fowle, upon which their fjyme is fet • fn 
 the meane time, as if all were T ruth Wflohnelle it 
 felfc, no Salvation mnfi be pofible, did it lye at their 
 Mercy, but in thedowmnnionof the One, and in 
 the Conventicles 0/ the Other. As if either of thefe 
 now were, asthe Donatifts of old reputed tbemfehes, 
 the only men, in whom Chrift at his comming to fudg- 
 ment,fhouldfinde Faith. Jfo {faith * ?. Auguitine: 
 andfofayf with him) Da veniam,non Credimus. 
 Tar don us, I pray , we cannot beleeve it. The Catho- 
 like Church of Qorifi is neither Rome, nor a Con- 
 venticle. Out of that there s no Salvation, f eafily 
 fonfeffeit. Butontof Rome there is, and out of a 
 Conventicle too • Salvation is netful? up into fuch a 
 narrow Concla vt. fn this enfuingB>i fcour fe there- 
 fore f have endeavour’d to lay open thofe wider-Gates 
 of the Catholike* Church, confined to no Age, 
 Time, or Place; Ufor (nowing any Bounds, but 
 
 That 
 
 Phil. 2,2 s 
 
 * S. Zug, 
 Epift. 48. 
 
That Faith, which was once [and but once for all) 
 deliver'd to the Saints. S. fude 3 . (t// nd in my pur - 
 fuite of this way,f have fearched after , and deliver’d 
 with a (ingle heart, that T ruth which f profeffe.fn the 
 publijhing whereof, l have obeyed Y our Majefty, 
 difchargdmy Duty, to my power, to the Church of 
 England, * Given account of the Hope that is in 
 me- And Jo teiiified to the world that Faith in 
 which f have limed, and by (Jod’s blefing and [amour 
 purpofe to dye ■ 'But till Death Jhall mofl unfainedly 
 remaine 
 
 Y our Majefties mold faithful! 
 Subject, and moft 
 
 Humble 3 and Obliged 
 
 Servant, 
 
 \ 
 
 W. Cant. 
 
 c. 
 
/ 
 
 Of the Conference betvveene 
 
 L 
 
 V VILLI AM LAWD, 
 
 Then L, Bifhop of S. Day ids • now Lord 
 
 Arch^Bifhop of Canterbury- 
 
 M. Fijh erthe fefuite, by the command of 
 
 Kino fAMES 
 
 * Of eyer c Blejfed Memoriex 
 
 With an Anfwer to fuch Ecceptions as 
 
 A. C. takes agatnfl it. 
 
 F Tlx Occa/ion of this Conference was. 
 
 He Occafion of this Third 
 Conference you fhould know 
 fufficiently. You were an 
 Attor in it, as well as in 
 two other. Whether you 
 have related the two for* 
 mer truly , appcares by 
 
 T n . n ,,, . . „ , D - wh iie the late Reverend 
 Bifhop of biy his Relation, or Expofition of them 
 
 I was prefent at none, but this Third i of which I 
 here give the Church an Account. But of this Third 
 whether that were the Caufe which you alledee I 
 cannot tell. You fay, - 
 
 B . u 
 
 \ 
 
 
p. It was obferVedj That in the fecond Confe- 
 rence all the Speech was about particular mat- 
 ters ; little or none about a continuaU , infallible 
 Vifible Church , which ivasthe chic fe and onely 
 ^ oint , in which a certaine Lady required fatif '« 
 faclion ; as haying formerly fetled in her minde. 
 That it was not for her, or any other unlearned 
 Perfons , to take up on them to judge of Particu- 
 lars , without depending upon the Judgement of 
 the true Church. 
 
 2 B The Opinion of that Honourable Perfon in 
 
 this, was never opened to mee. And it is very fit the 
 people fliould looke to the judgement of the Church , 
 before they bee too bu(ie with Particulars* But yec 
 a i Cor. 10.15. neither a Scripture , nor any good Authority denies 
 
 ...... , them Tome mo„ 
 
 b fthtd non fine ullo f JMagftro ^ ant interprets ex fe facile ceano ft ♦ p r 
 
 cat ($ c. Novzt.de Trin. c. *3. Lt loquitur dc Mjfterio Pajfionls ^^dtC Ule Ot 
 fbrifti.‘Di)t*dicare eft LAtenfurare &c. ZJnde & Afens dicitur a their OWnC Un*= 
 
 Afetiendo.Tbo.p.i.q. 7 9. A. 9. ad 4. To wliat end then is a dcrflandincT and 
 made, and an underltanding given a Man , iF he may not ap- 
 
 ply it tomcafure Truth ? St A'imqi&cijo TtJitetvotlv. i.ah eo quod Iudgcment,elpe~ 
 confiderat , & difeernit, ftfuiadecernit inter vernm & falfum. things 
 
 And A . 7 . himfclfe, p. 41. denyes not all Indgement to private 
 men \ b fayes they are not to to relie abfolucely upon their 
 private I igement, as to adventure falvation upon it alone, or 
 chiefly 3 which no man will deny. 
 
 Capacities may 
 
 as eafily underftand , as rcade. And therefore fomc 
 Particulars a Chriftian may judge with ,t depending , 
 
 f miliar and evi- 
 dv. a • which 
 even b ordinary 
 
 p This Lady therefore having hea d it granted 
 in the firjl Conference , That there muj} bee a 
 continuall Vifible Qompany ever Unce Chrijf 
 teaching unchanged DoHrim r all Fwida- 
 mentall Points ; that is y PoyiL necejfary to 
 falvation , defin’d to he are t' firmed, and 
 
 proof 
 
H- 
 
 proofe brought , which was that continual 1 , 
 infallible , noifible Church jn which one may, and 
 out of which one cannot attaine (ahation. And 
 therefore haying appointed a time of J "Meeting 
 b ' a B. and me , and thereupon hay- 
 i j.,nt for the B. and me, before the B. 
 came, the La dy and a friend of hers came firfl 
 to the roome where 1 was, and debated before 
 me the aforefaid Gguyflion , and not doubting 
 of the firfl part, to wit, That there mufl be a con- 
 tinually ifible Church, as they had heard gran- 
 ted by D. Whiter*/ L K. isfee 
 
 g WhatD. White, and L. 2C granted, I heard 
 not. But I thinke, both granted a continuall, and a ^ 
 y ifible (fhurch j neither of them an infallible, at lcaft 
 in your fenfe. And your feife in this Relation fpeake 
 diitra£tediy ; for in thefe few lines from the begin- 
 ning hither , twice you adde infallible betweene con- 
 tinual! and y ifible , and twice you leave it out* But 
 this concernes D. W . and he hath anfwered it. 
 
 Here c A C. ftepsin, and fa yes, The lefuitedid ^ 
 notj fyeake diflrattedly, but mfladyifedly. For( faith he) A. 
 where he relates, what D. White, or L. K. granted , hee 
 leayes out the word Infallible , becaufe they granted it 
 not-, But where he fpeakes of the Lady, there he addes 
 it , becaufe the lefuite knew , it was an infallible Qhurch, 
 which foe f lught to rely upon . How farre th e Catholike 
 ^Militant fhur h of fhrifl is infallible, is no Diipute 
 for this Place, though youftiall finde it after. But 
 fure the lefuite did not fpeake moft advifedly , nor 
 ( neither, nor the Lady her feife, if Ike faid fhe 
 dedred to relie upon an Infallible fburch. For an 
 Infallible C hurcb denotes a ‘'Particular Church , in that 
 it is fee in oppofition to fbme other Particular 
 
 B z Church 9 
 
+ Veritas vine at nccefe eft, five 
 JSbegc 'item , five confitentsm &c. 
 S. Aug. Eptft. 174. 
 Occultaripoteft ad tempos veritas, 
 vinci non poteft.S.Ang.inPfal.61, 
 
 Lib.^JDc Rom. Pont. Cap. 4.§.i. 
 P^omana particular'll Eg clef a, 
 non pot eft err are in Eide. 
 
 §’ 3 - 
 
 Church, that is not infallible. Now I for my part, 
 doe not know what that Lady defired to relie upon. 
 This I know, if (he defired lucli a Particular Qnircb , 
 neither this Iefuite , nor any other is able to (hew it 
 her ; No not Bellarmine himleife, though of very 
 great ability to make good any Truth, which he 
 undertakes for the Church of Rome. 
 t But no ftrength can uphold an Error 
 ao;ainfl: Truth , where Truth hath an 
 able Defendant. Now where Bellar - 
 mine fets himleife purpofely to make 
 this good, That a the Particular Church 
 of Rome cannot erre in matter of Faith ; 
 Out of which it folio wes. That there may be found 
 a Particular infallible Qhurch , you (hall fee what he is 
 able to performe. 
 
 1. Firllthen, after he hath Diftinguilhed, toes- 
 prelfe his meaning , in what fenfe the Particular 
 Church of Rome cannot erre in things which are dc 
 Fide of the Faith ,* he tells us, this Firmitudeis 3 be- 
 caufe the Sea Apoftolike is fixed there. And this he 
 faith ismofttrue. * Andforprocfeof it, he brings 
 three Fathers to juftifie it. 
 
 1. The firfl S. ( jpprian , a whole 
 words are. That the Romanes are iuch, 
 as to whom Perfidia cannot have ac- 
 ceflc.Now Perfidia ca hardly ftand for 
 Error in Faith, or for Misbelief e : But 
 it properly fignifies i alicious Falfe- 
 hood in matter of Trufl , and ASlion : not error in 
 faith } but infuft againft the Difcipline, and Govern- 
 ment of the Qhurch. And why may it not here have 
 N u m . 4. tllis meanili g in S. Cyprian ? 
 
 win. Concii. To.i.p. 152 . Edit . For the Story there it is this. b In the 
 
 i 2 j arif. 16 3 6 . Bar on. Attn ad mi. 2 5 5 , Yeare there was a Councell in 
 254.255, - 
 
 Num. 3. 
 
 * Ibia. §. n 
 
 ^Navigare audent ad Petri Ca - 
 thedram , & Eccleftam princi - 
 palem &c. 7^ec cogitare eos efe 
 Romanos, ad c/uos Perfidia babe» 
 re non pot eft accefum. Cypr. 
 L i* , 
 
Carthage in the caufe of two Schifmatiks F elicifsimm, 
 zn&Noy at ian, zbout reftoring of them to the Communi- 
 on of the Church , which had lapfed in time of danger 
 from Chriftianity to Idolatry . Felicifsinm would ad- 
 mit all even without penance 5 and Novatian would 
 admit none, no not after penance. The Fathers forty 
 two in number went, as the Truth led them, between 
 both Extreames. To this Councell czmc r Priyattu a 
 knowne Heretick, but was noc admitted, becaufe 
 he was formerly Excommunicated , and often com 
 demned. Hereupon he gathers his Complicies to- 
 gether , aud choofes one Fortunatiu (who was for- 
 merly condemned as well as himfelfe) "Bi/hop of 
 Carthage, and let him up again ft S. Qyprian. This 
 done , Felicifsimus and his Feliowes hafle to Rome 
 with Letters TeUimoniall from their ownc party, and 
 pretend that Twenty fh>e Bifhops concurred with 
 them : and their defire was to be received into the 
 Communion of the Romane Church , and to have their 
 new Bifhop acknowledged. Cornelius then Pope, 
 though their haft had now prevented S. Cyprians 
 Letters , having formerly heard from him, both of 
 them, and their Schifine in ^Africke, would neither 
 heare them, nor receive their Letters. They grew in- 
 dolent and furious ( the ordinary way that Schifma - 
 ticks take.) V pon thi s Cornelius w rites to S .Cyprian- 
 and S. Cyprian in this Epiftle gives Qornelius thanks, 
 for refufing thefe African fugitives, declares their 
 Schifine and wickednefte at large, arid encourages 
 him, and all ‘ Bi/hops to maintaine the 6 cclejiafticall 
 T)ifcipline , and Cen hires againlt any the boldeft 
 threatnings of wicked Schifmaticks. This is the 
 Story , and in this is the Paflage here urged by Bel - 
 larmine. Now I wou’d faine know why *Terfidia (all 
 Gircuinftances confidered ) may not ftand here in 
 
 B § its 
 
 : 
 
6 
 
 H- 
 
 its proper fenle for cunning and perfidious dealing ? 
 which thefe men , having pra&ifcd at (farthage, 
 thought now to obtrude upon the Bifhop of (fipme 
 alfb,butthathe was warie enough not to be over- 
 reach’d by BuRc Schi/maticks ? 
 
 N u m, 5. 2. Secondly, let it be granted that Terfidla doth 
 
 fignifie here Error in faith and doBrtne . For i will nor 
 denie, but that among the African Writers (and efpe- 
 cially S. Cyprian) it is fomtimes fo us d • and there- 
 fore here perhaps. But then this Priviledge of not 
 erring dangeroufly in the Faith, was not made over 
 abfolutely to the %pmants , that are iuch by birth, and 
 duelling onely ,• but to the Romanes , qua tales , ; s 
 they were fuch as thofe firft were, 1 tohofe faith "to. 4 
 famous through the world , and as long as they conti- 
 1 ued (uch • which at that time it feemes they did. 
 Vid fi> S. Cyprians words leeme to import, eos # 
 fipmanos, that the fiomanes then under Pope ( orne - 
 
 frRom.1.8. I ins, were fuch as the b ApoHle fpake of, and there- 
 
 fore to whom at that time ( or any time, they ftill 
 remaining Rich ) perfidious Misbeliefe could not be 
 welcome y Or rather indeed perfidious Misbelievers 
 or Schifmaticks could not be welcome. For this very 
 "hrafe Eerfidia non poteft habere accejjum , diretf s 
 us to underftand the word in a Concrete fenfe. 
 
 ■ Terfidioufnejfe could not get acceffe , that is , fuch 
 perfidious per fins , Excommunicated out of other 
 Churches, were not likely to getaccefle at <l{ome : 
 
 'Egotibiiftam 7^^<?/?.w;,SccIus, OrtoHnde Admittance into their Com * 
 
 ftnguam abfdndam: Piaur. Am- munion . It is but a Metonymie of Ipeech, 
 
 &.J *** h* «* *#»> a thing 
 
 — Ldtuh piebeio tetfos amiQ. H very ufiiall even in elegant 8 Authours , 
 
 TrnTu much mor . e in ^tertimes , as in 
 
 \ Cyprians, when the Latine Lan- 
 guage was growne rougher. Now if it be thus 
 
 underftood 
 
 .j 
 
 4 
 
 * 
 
7 
 
 §• ?• 
 
 underftood (1 fay in the Concrete) then it is plaine, that 
 S. Cyprian did not intend by thefc words to exempt 
 the Romanes from pofsibility of Errour , but to brand 
 his Adverfarics with a Title due to their Merit, cal- 
 ling them perfidious , that is, fuch as had betrayed , or 
 perverted the Faith. Neither can wee looie by this 
 Condru&ion, as will appeare at after. 
 
 J* But thirdly , when all is done, what if it bee no Num, 6.1 
 more than a Rhetoricall Exeeffe of lpeech ? Perfidiii 
 non potejl, for non facile potefi , It cannot, that is, it 
 cannot eafily ; Or what if S. Cyprian doe but Ltudando 
 pr<ecipere , by commending t them to be fuch, in- t AVr cogitire 
 ftruathcra, that fuch indeed they ought to bee, to e 'Z^fi 272 
 whom ‘Terfidioujnejfe mould not gee accede. Men poftoh prtdkm* 
 are very bountifull of their Complements lometimcs. te> 
 
 * Synefius writing to Theophilus of Alexandria , begins * Epifi. 67. 
 thus, iyo % (Site/*#, pui See. I both will, 
 
 and a Divine Necefsity lies upon mee, to efteeme it a 
 Law , whatfoever that Throne (meaning his of Alex- 
 andria ) fhall Determine. Nay the Word is faulty 
 and that fignifics to determine like an Oracle, or as 
 in Gods dead. Now, I hope you will fay. This is 
 not to be taken Dogmatically , it is but the Epiftolers 
 Courtefie onely. And why not the like here > For 
 the hade which the/ e Schifmaticks made to Rome , 
 prevented Saint Cyprians Letters : yet Cornelius very 
 carefull of both the Truth and Deace of the Church, 
 would neither hearc them, nor receive their Letters , 
 
 till b hee had written to S. Cyprian. Now „ Eor {o s . c 7f r, M begins hi* 
 this Epifile is S. Cyprians anfwer to Cor - EpifUeto Cornelius . Legilitcras 
 ndius in which he informes him of the a • / /r /• 1 
 
 Whole truth, and WJthall gives him EpifioUtuafrAter^&c.s. Cypr, 
 thanks for refufing to heare thefe AfirF L ' 3. 
 can Fugitives. In which faire way of returning his 
 thanks, if hee make an honourable mention of the 
 
 (Romanes 
 
lN UM. 7. 
 
 S-3* 
 
 (Romanes and their Faith, with a little dafTi of Tfe- 
 torick, eventoaNi mftiejt, for a Non facile potejl, ’tis 
 no great wonder. 
 
 But take which Anfwer you will of the three* 
 This is plaine , that S. Cyprian had no meaning to 
 aflert the unerring Infallibility of either Tope, or 
 Church of Tome. For this is more then manifeft, by 
 the Conteftation, which after happened betwcene 
 S. Cyprian , and Pope Stephen , about the %ebaptiza- 
 tion of thofe, that were Baptized by Hareticks, For hee 
 t faith exprefly , that Tope Stephen did 
 then not onely maintaine an error , hut the Very 
 Caufe of fftireticks , and that againjl 
 Chrijlians , and the Very Church of God , 
 * And after this he chargeth him with 
 Objiinacy and Trefwnption 1 I hope this is 
 plaine enough to fhew, that S. Cyprian 
 had no great Opinion of the Tpmane 
 Infallibility. Or if he had it , when he 
 writ to Cornelius ; certainely hee had 
 chang’d it^ when he wrote againfl: Stephen But I 
 think it was no change, and that when he wrote to 
 Cornelius y it was Tfetoricke, and no more. 
 
 Nowifany man (hall fay, that in this Poynt of 
 Tftfaptizatm , S. Cyprian himfelfe was in the wrong 
 Opinion, and Pope Stephen in the right, I eafily 
 grant that ,• But yet that Error of his takes not off 
 his judgement , what he thought of the Tapall or 
 ?nane Infallibility in thole times. For though after- 
 wards a S. Cyprians Opinion was condemned in a 
 ^FcorKeLpnf Founcelt at T^me under Cornelius , and after that by 
 ^ Can. 1 » (pope Stephen- and after both in th e fir ft b Councell of 
 Carthage: yet no one word is there in that Councell t 
 which mentions this as an Error , That 1 >ee though 
 Tope Stephen might cm in the faith , while he pro- 
 claimed 
 
 j- Stephens Frater nofler Hare « 
 ticorum caufam contra Chrifti** 
 nos, & contra Eccleftam 'Dei aj fe« 
 ycYc conatur. Cypr. ad Eontpei- 
 nm contra Epift. Stephani Edit* 
 per Erafmttm Bafil. p. 327, 
 
 * Stephani fratiis noflri obftlna- 
 no dura: Ibid. p. 32 9. And it 
 would be marked by the lelu- 
 ite and his <zs 4 .C‘ that iWi it is 
 Stephani fratris nojhi , and not 
 Capitis 3 or fummi F aft oris noftri. 
 
 Num-S* 
 
 * Caranza in 
 

 o 
 
 5 ? 
 
 At t amen fcito Roman?, m fidem 
 Apcjlchcd voce laudatam ejuffi 
 modi praffiigi.ts non recipere , eti- 
 amfi Angelin aliter amunciet y 
 quarn fcmel pradicatum eft, Pauli 
 author i tat e mmitam non poffie 
 mutari. S. Hieron. £• 3. Apol, 
 contra Ruffin am. 'Tom. 2. Edit. 
 Parif. 15 34. fol. 84. K. Perad- 
 venture it is here to be read ( & 
 jam fi ) For fo the place is more 
 piaine, and more ftrong } tiit the 
 
 claimed he did to. In which, though the particular 
 Cenfure, which he pafTed on Pope Stephen > was 
 erroneous (for Stephen erred not in that) yet the Ge- 
 nerali which refults from it (namely. That for 
 all his being in the Popedome, he might erre) is 
 moft true. 
 
 2. The lecond Father which ! Bellamine cites, is N u m . 9 
 
 S. lerome: d His words are : The Botnane 
 Faith commended by the Mpoflle , admits 
 not juch prljligia's , deceits , and delufwns 
 into it , though an Jngell fhould preach it 
 otherWife , than it was preach'd at jirft 
 (and) being armed and fenced by S.Paul s 
 authority , cannot be changed. Where firft, 
 
 1 will not doubt, but that S. lerome 
 ipeakes here of the Faith; For the 
 JligU here mentioned, are afterwards Anlweris tIleiam '*’ 
 more plainely expreffed ; For he tleis us after , 
 
 2 That the 'Bijhop of Borne had fent Letters into the 
 
 Eaft , and charged Herefe upon Ruffi- =» Veinde ut SpifioUs centra te 
 nus : And f arther , that Origen’s Books ad Orientemmitteret,& cauteri- 
 
 o\ , A ^177. um till Harefeos imreret. Z)/- 
 
 ctppyjv dT ere tranfated by bltn , ceretq^ libros Origerds Tsk.i ojydvy 
 
 and delivered to the limple people of the *te translates, & fmplid Ecde- 
 Church of Borne , that by bps meanes they ^ verita J n ah 
 might loofe the Verity oj the Faith , which didicerant , per te perderent. So 
 they had learned from the Jpojlle. There- Hicron * ^ f ol% 8 5 • 
 fore the BrreUigtd before mentioned were the Cun- 
 ning lllufions of ByiffinnSj putting Origen's Book un- 
 der the Martyr Tamphilus his name, that fo he might 
 bring mHerefie the more cunningly under a name of 
 Credited the more eafily pervert the Peoples Faith. 
 
 So, of the Faith he Ipeakes. And fecondly, I fhaH as 
 eafily confcfle that S. lerome s fpeech is moft true, but 
 I cannot admit the Cardinals fenle of it. For he im- 
 
 . ♦ • A. sJ \ • ' V « • T > * — v ' * •> ■ ' 
 
 poles upon the word Fides, For by Banana Fides , 
 
 C the 
 
 \ 
 
10 
 
 
 r 
 
 the Pc mane Faith , he will underftand the Particular 
 Church of pome. Which is as much as to fay, Poma- 
 nosFideles, the Faithiull of that Church: And that 
 no wilie Delufions,or Coufenage in matter of Faith 
 can be impofed upon them. Now hereupon I re- 
 turne to that of 5. Cyprian : If Fides ftomana muft 
 fignifie Fideles Pomanos , why may not Perfidia be- 
 fore fignifie Perfidos ? Efpecially fince thefe two 
 words are commonly uied by thele Writers , as 
 Femes a Oppofite. And therefore by the 
 a Qm cum Ttdet dux ejje non po- 0 j (jppofition may interpret each 
 
 La.kpifi.7. other proportionably. So with thele 
 
 Fidem perfidi & c . ibid . great Mafters, with whom ’tis almoft 
 
 fidelibis perfidi . optatusf z. 7 . g™wne to be, Quod murnus, re Bum eft, 
 Quomodo Us profit qmm bapti - what wc pleale, fhall be the Authours 
 
 meaning : Perfidia muft fignifie ablb- 
 \utc\y Err our in Faith, or Misbelief e : But 
 Fides muft relate to the Perfons, and fig- 
 nifieth t Faith full of the Pomane Church. 
 And now I conceive my Anfwer will 
 proceed with a great deale ofReafon. For pomana 
 Fides, the Romane Faith, as it was commended 
 by the Apoftle ( of which S. Jerome fpeakes) is one 
 thing, and the Particular pomane Church, of 
 which the Cardinall Ipeakes, is another. The 
 Faith indeed admits not Proeftigias , wilie delufi- 
 ons into it 5 if it did , it could not be the Whole 
 and Vndefiled Faith of drift , which they learned 
 from the apoftle. And which is fb fenced by 
 jfpoftolicall Authority , as that it cannot be chan- 
 ged , though an Angell fhould preach the contra- 
 ry. But the Particular Church of Pome hath admit- 
 ted PrxftigiMj diverfe crafty Conveyances into the 
 Faith, and is not fenced, as the Faith it felfe is. 
 And therefore though an Angell cannot contrary 
 
 that^ 
 
 z*rntur Tarentum Fides, quorum 
 its non potefi obejfe perfidia. 
 S. Aug. Epift. 23. Quanto po - 
 tins Fides aliena potefi confulere 
 parvulo , cui fua perfidia , cFc, 
 S. Aug. L . 3 ,de lib.Arbit.c, 23. 
 
$• <>• n 
 
 . * i 
 
 that, yet the bad Angell hath'fowed tares in this. 
 
 By which meanes %omana Tides, though it be now 
 the fame it was for the words of the Creed • yet it is 
 notthefameforthe/ewyeof it: Nor for the/^erand 
 prater -ftruttures built upon it, or joyned unto it. So 
 th tl{omane Faith , that is , the Faith which S.Paul 
 taught the Romanes , and after commended in them , 
 was all one with the Catholike Faith of Cbri?t a For 
 S. Paul taught no other than that One. And this one 
 can never be changed in, or rom itfelfe by Angell or 
 'DiVell, But in mens hearts it may receive a change- 
 And in particular Churches it may receive a change; 
 
 And in the particular Church of Pome it hath received 
 a change. And yee fee S. Hierome himfelfe con- 
 fefles that the Tope himfelfe was afraid b ne perde - b Ne ven ~ 
 
 n i * r Cr i tatem qmm ab 
 
 rent , lean: by this Art or %u]fms, the People might Apojlolo didice- 
 loo fe the Verity of the Faith. Now that which can r f ntj P ert *P er p 
 be loft, can be changed For ufually Habits begin rcnt > Ht ■> H P ra * 
 to alter, before they be quite loft. And thatwhivh 
 may be loft among the People , maybe loft among 
 the Bijhops , and the reft of the Qergie too, if they 
 looke not to it, as it feemes they after did not 
 at Pome, though then they did. Nay at this time 
 the whole pomane Church was in danger enough to 
 fwallow Origens Booke , and all the Errors in it com- 
 ming under the Name of Pamphilus • and fo S Jerome 
 himfelfe exprefly, and clofe upon the Place cited by 
 Bellarmine. For he defires 3 puff ms to change the 
 Title of the Booke ( that Error may not be ipread 
 under the fpecious Name of Pamphilus ) and fo to 
 free from danger the Pomane fmplicity . Where, by the ^ 
 
 way yPpmane unerring Po^er now challenged, and 
 Pomane fmplicity then feared , agree not very well 
 together. 
 
 Ci j. The 
 
 3 (Jtffita titH- 
 lum , & Roma* 
 nam [implicit 
 tem ianto peri- 
 
 f 
 
11 
 
 §• 3 ' 
 
 
 Num, io. 3. The third Father alledged by Bellamine is 3 S>Gre~ 
 
 “Vet us Roma ab ontiquis temforihu V*J NO&nm. And his Words 
 habet reblam Fidem , & femper earn are, that Ancient Rome from of old 
 rennet , f.cut deeet Vrbem, e,u* tori ^ ffc rf.fo p^jj md afaayeS holds 
 
 fidem habere, Greg. Naz. in Carmine it , beCOmeS the ^hichuGo- 
 
 de vud fua. ' ,te medmm. p.$. edit. <y erne fie oyer the yohole World to betide 
 
 Par if, lOop /»•./• # . o / 
 
 an entire faith inland concerning yod. 
 Now certainly it became that City very well, to 
 keepe the Faith found, and entire. And having the 
 Government of a great part of the World then in 
 her power, it became her fo much the more, as her 
 Example thereby was the greater. And in S. Gregory 
 Nafwi'Zfris time, Rome did certainly hold both 
 reflam & integram fidem , the right, and the whole 
 entire Faith of Chrift. But there is nor Promife y nor 
 Prophecy in S. Gregory , that Rome frail ever fo doe. 
 For his words are plain c femper dec et^ italwayes be- 
 comes that great City to have, and 
 ! wor ^ s , tiie Grceke,are » h av fo to hoi d too integram Fidem th e en- 
 
 *K.7freiW0{;ftn/v tT triv H<tc • r* • L t» * 1 T 
 
 quidemfuit diu, & nunc adhtic eft retti - tire F ait ll But at the Other jemper , 
 
 grada-Utv, Eft ; So S. Gregory layers, ’tis b rctinet , rhat City from of old 
 but ot an tru or a retinebit 3 )\e fayes no- i i j i • 1 c * i * ’ s t 
 
 t hi ng . - y - holds the right faith yet $ but he 
 
 faith not retine bit Jemper , that the 
 City of Rome (hall retaineit ever , no more then it 
 frail ever retaine the Empire of the World. Now 
 it mull be affur d y that it frail ever hold the entire 
 faith of Chriftjbcfore we can be allured, That that 
 ^ Particular Church can never erre > or be Infallible. 
 
 'pld'Jfor per agnominationem Befi ^S thcfc , the 0VYfi>M0 
 
 nihil ahud, qudm inconcuflam & fir- names Cyrillus j&nd Ruffians , but he 
 miflimam Difcipuli fidem vocamt. nc ji c h cr t( Us us where , nor cites 
 
 ftrmataejfet , nt non laberetur, & ejfet theif WC .*ds. Yet I thinke I have 
 
 inexpugnabihs iuferorum portis, in found t e moll pregnant place in 
 perpetnum manens. S. Cyril. Alex. ^ * r- > \ x ° T 1 . 
 
 ‘Sid. de Trin. i.+.p, * 7 g. Fari/th, $ Qw > and that makes clearly 
 
 An.ito^. againf him. For I finde exprefly 
 
 thefc 
 

 §> 3 * *} 
 
 thefe three things. Firft, that the Church is Inex- 
 pugnable, and that the Gates of Hell ihall never pre~ 
 vaile againftir, but that it (hall /// perpetuum manere 
 remaine forever. And this all Protellants grant. 
 
 But this, That itjhall not fall away, doth not lie ure it 
 fromall kinds oferror. Sec on d\y ^Bellarmine quotes 
 S. Cyril for the Particular Romane C burcb j and S. Cyril 
 fpeakes not of the Romane at all, but of the Church of 
 Chrifl , that is, the Cathohke Church . Thirdly 3 that the 
 Foundation and firmenefle^ which the Qhurch of fhrifl 
 hath, is placed not in y or 
 upon the *Perfon y much lelle 
 the Succejjor of S. Peter but 
 upon the* faith, which by 
 Gods Spirit in him he lo 
 firmely profefled : which 
 is the Common received Opinion both of the Anci- 
 ent Fathers , and the 'Froteftauts. Vpon this Rocke, 
 that is, upon this faith will I build my Church. 
 
 S. Matth . 1 6. So here's all the Good he hath gotten s.Matt.x^. i£. 
 by S. Cyril, unlerfe he can cite fome other place of 
 S. Cyriljwhich. I believe he cannot. 
 
 And for Ruffinus ,Cne 
 
 * Et ego dico tibi ) i.tiu Confefsioni,qua mihi dix- 
 ififTu cs C hr if us &c. ‘Dion, forth#/, in S.Aiat, 
 1 6. 1 8. Et fuperhanc Petrum J i. Fidei huj us fir- 
 mi tatem & fundament urn. Vil fuper hanc Petra/# 
 cjuam confejfus es, i. fuper Ada fount Lapidem iAn- 
 gularem &c. Ibid. 
 
 Place which Bellarmine 
 aimes at, is in his Expofo 
 tion upon the Creed- and is 
 
 N Ll M. 12. 
 
 k Bcllar. L.^Je%om. Pont, fop penult. 
 c Illud non importune commonendnm puto, quod in 
 diver ft s Ecclefiis aliquet in his verbis in veniunt ur 
 adjcila. > In Ecclefid tamcn Vr bis Roma hoc non de- 
 V* i . r i prehenditur factum. >r Pro co arbritror, quod ncque 
 
 quoted in part thet'Chap- H&rcfis ulla illic fumpfit exordium , & mos ibi 
 
 ter before. But when ail fervatur antiques, eos qui gratiam Baptifmi fuf- 
 
 * ««* M be laid to- 2»; giSZSZi-Jip&Z; 
 
 unites faltem Sermonis , eorum qui prace/ferunt in 
 Fide, non admittit audit us. fn cat iris an tern Locis , 
 quantum intclligi datur , propter nonnullos Hare- 
 ticos addita qusdam videntur, per qus noveiUDo- 
 Birina fen (us crederetur excludi. £ re. Ruffin, in 
 Expo fit. Symbol, fot habetur inter Opera S. Cy~ 
 priani ) Erfoat. Sxpof 
 
 gether 3 they will make no 
 more for Bellarmine and 
 hi* aufe y then the former 
 P aces have done. c R f i- 
 nm Lis words then runne 
 thus : ‘Before! come to the 
 
 \ \ J 
 
 C 3 
 
 Words 
 
 i 
 
§• 3 ’ 
 
 Words of the Creed, this 1 thinke fit to warnejou of. That 
 in divers Churches fome things are found added to the 
 words ( of the Creed. ) ^ut h *be Church of the City 
 of Rome, this is not found done, ind as 1 thinke , it is,fov 
 that no Hare fie did take its rife or beginning there : Jlnd 
 for that the old Cuftome is there obferVed, Namely, that they 
 which are to receive the grace of B apt if me, doe pub likely 
 repeate the Creed in the hearing of the People, who Would 
 not admit fuch Additions. ‘dBut in other places ( asfarre 
 as l can under ftand) by reafonof fome Hereticks , fome 
 thin gs were added, but fuch as were to exclude the f enfe of 
 their Novell Dottrine. Now thefe words make little 
 for Bellamine who cites them , and much againft 
 Ruffinus that uttered them. They make little for 
 Bellamine . Firft, bccaufe fuppofe Ruffinus his fpeech 
 to be true, yet this will never follow : In R uffims his 
 time no Harefie had taken its beginning at Rome : 
 therefore no H<erefie hath had rooting there fo ma- 
 ny hundred yeares iince. Second! yfBelltrmine takes 
 upon him there to proo ve That the particular Church of 
 Rome cannot erre, Now neither can this be concluded 
 out of Ruffinus his words. Firft,becaufe (as I faid bc- 
 fore)to argue from Non fumpfit to Crgo fumere nonpo - 
 tefl : No Harefie hath yet begun there ; therefore 
 none can begin there, or fpring thence, is an Argu- 
 ment drawne cAbattuad Potentiam negat ivi, from 
 the Ad to the Power of Being, which every No- 
 vice in Learning can tell proceeds not Negatively. 
 And Common Reafon tellcs every man , ns no 
 Confequence to fay, Such a thing is not, or hath not 
 beene, Therefore it cannot be. Secondly, bccaufe 
 though it were true, that no Harefie at all did ever 
 take its beginning at ^me, yet that can never proove 
 that the particular Church of^ome can never erre (which 
 isthethinginQueftion.) For fuppofe that no Ha- 
 
§. 3 • 
 
 
 refie did ever beginne there, yet if any, that began elf- 
 where, were admitted into that Church, it is as full 
 a proofe, T hat that Church can erre, as if the Hxrefie had 
 beene hatched in that Neil. For that Church erres, 
 which admits an Harefie into it 3 as well as that which 
 broaches it. Now Ruffinus fayes no more of the Romane 
 Church , then non fumpfit exordium no Herefie tooke 
 its brginningtherc ; but that denyes not , but that 
 fome Hsereticall taint might get in there. And us 
 more then manifeft,that the mo ft famous Fferefies in 
 their feverall Times made their aboade even at Rome. 
 
 And ’tis obfervable too, that Beflarmine cites nomore 
 of Ruffinus his words then theie ( In Ecclefid nrbis 
 Rowd neepue Hrtrefis ulla fumpfit exordium 3 & mos ibi 
 ferH>atur antiepuus ) as if this were an entire fpeech , 
 whereas it comes in but as a Reafon given of the 
 lpeech precedent , and as if Ruffinus made the 
 ( hurch of Rome the great obferver of the Cuftomes 
 of the Church, whereas hefpeaks but of one Parti- 
 cular Cuftome of Reciting the (freed before fBaptifme. 
 
 But after all this, I pray did no Berefie ever begin at 
 Rome ? where did NoVatianifme begin ? At Rome fare. 
 
 For 3 Saronius y b Tamelius , and c PetaYtus doe all dif- * Baron. To . 
 putethePoint, whether that fed was denominated 
 from ovatianusthz Romane Triefi; , or J^pVatus the h Pamel. in (y+ 
 African Btfhop ; And they Conclude for Novation. f*^ E F**' 4 X * 
 He then that gave that Name , is in all right the * Pctavius in 
 Founder ,and Rome the neft ot that Herefie. And there Epfban, Hares 
 it Continued with a fuccefsion J of Bifhops from l 9 6nnph. inN*± 
 Cornelius to deStine, which is neare upon two hun- tv «d Plat- in 
 dredyeares. Nay could Ruffinus himklfe be igno- Vfta C°rnclii. 
 rant that fbmc Hterefie began at (2^ome? Nofure.For 
 in this I muft challenge him either for his weafa me. J 
 
 morpyOthis^ilfullerror. For Ruffinus had not only 
 
 read Euf y ,bm his Hiftory,but had beene at the paines 
 
 to 
 
1 6 
 
 * Haretui alii in morem vencna- 
 t or urn fer pent urn in Aft am , , Cr 
 Phrygiam irrepferunt ,0/ Vh?n p<W 
 quorum Fl ° rw "?- 
 
 Eulcb.i. 5 .«/> -i 4- And 1,1 Wf 
 
 big Transition, c. 15. And 
 then afterwards c. 19. & 20^ 
 
 khvAvlUi S'i 7 civ 07 n f&MHfTof' try mi 
 rfo EiutkHfUf Qstfliv 
 
 ■tm.&c. Now thee taught 
 that God was the Author qi fin. 
 
 §• r 
 
 to tranflate him , Now *Eufebius fayes 
 plainely , that fome Hereticks fpread 
 their yenomein Ajtd , fome in Phrygia , 
 and others grew at ( Epme , and Florinus 
 Teas the (Using-leader of them. And more 
 clearely after. Irenaim (faith h c)dirccled 
 diverfe Epi files againjl this Florinusymi 
 Iris fellow Blaftus, and condemms them of 
 fuch Hereftes , as threat them and their Followers into 
 great Impiety, See. Thofe at pome corrupting the found 
 Dollrine of the Church . Therefore molt maniferf it is, 
 
 "* that fome Herejie had its rife and beginning at Pp? ne , 
 But to leave this flip of Puffinus , mod evident it is, 
 that (Jfuffinus neither did, nor could account the Par- 
 ticular Church of %pme infallible. For if he had 
 efteemed fo of it, he would not have dijjented from it 
 in fo mainc a Point,as is the Canon of the Script ure, as 
 fafsjmty. i£s. he plainely doth. a For reckoning up tw&£anonicatt 
 in which rec- <Bookes, hemofl: manifeftly diffents from Crxtpomane 
 
 ly agrees 1 with Church. Therefore either p uffinus did ndt think the 
 the church of Church of pome was infallible, or els the Church of 
 Eng land. Art. 5. R ome at t \p ls J a y reckons up more Pookes within the 
 
 Canon, than heretofore fhc did. If fhe do, then (he is 
 changed in a maine Point of Faith, the Canon of Scri- 
 pture, and is abfolutely convinced not to be infalli- 
 ble- For if flie were right in her reckoning then,fhe 
 is wrong now And if (he be right now, (he was 
 wrong thenj And if (he do not reckon more now 
 than (he did, when Pjiffinus lived, then he reckons 
 fewer than Che, and fo diffents from her • which 
 
 *> Novi, & Veteris Tejiamenti Vo- doubtlcffe he durft not have done, had 
 lumina &c.ficut ex Patmm Mo- Tic thought her judgement infallible . 
 
 3«ffiBCji£££ Ym, and he fas cWs marte upon Ms 
 
 tra Canonem cone Infer tint, Et ex Diflenc hemes, That he rtdmt if tbt 
 
 Zfc. ®“*“ •f * c »/‘* A «» “ 
 
 ' m f 9 % 
 
$. I 
 
 5 ? 
 
 than as he received them out of the Monuments of 
 the Forefathers- And out of Vehtch the Ajfertions of our 
 Faith are to he taken. Laft of all, had this place of 
 %ufftnus any ftrength for the hi fallibility of the 
 ( hurch of %me y yet there is very little reafon, that the 
 (Pope, and his flergie fhould take any Benefit by it. 
 
 For S. c Jerome tels us, That when Puff- r c . r . r . * • * a ts 
 
 ms Ip as angry with him for an Ffijlle facts abeo Exemplar spiftoUpe- 
 which he writ not , he plainlx Cent him to tere \ cm mi F inon f r > J adc 
 
 L (7>- n C rr> ? j i • 1 t • potties %omam, cr p'etjens apud 
 
 the JJiJbopof 'l{ome, and bid. him expostu- n ,m exfojlnh.cur tibi & abfinti 
 late Tbith him for the Contumely put upon &}m<icenn fmrit itjuriZ. Pri- 
 
 bwi y m that he received not his expojition of nem Fidei tu£ i quam omnls ( ut 
 the Faith , which , faid H e,all Italy appro - firibis) Italia comprobayit , &c. 
 
 Vcd: ' and in that he branded him aljo, dum 
 
 nelciret ( behind his back) with Hcrefie . ron. Apoi. ^.Aherf Ruffin./o/, 
 
 Now if the f Pope which then was, re- 85 * A ’ 
 
 jeded this Expofition of the Creed made by tffuffi* 
 
 nus , and branded him befides with Hcerefie ; his 
 
 fentence againft ( fuffnus was Iufi , or Vnjuft . If V n- 
 
 juft, then the Pope erred about a matter of Faith , and 
 
 fb neither He y nor the Church of fome, infallible • If 
 
 JuSf then the Church of fome labours to defend her- 
 
 fclf by h is pen, which is judged Htercticall by her felf , 
 
 So whether it were luff or Vnjufl, the Church of pome 
 is driven to a hard itrait,when fhe mud beg help of 
 him, whom fie branded with H<zrefie , and out of 
 that Traci, which fhe her felf rejected -And fo uphold 
 
 her Infallibility by the Judgement of a f cy, um ^ f e velie perform 
 man ? who in her Judgement had erred t eft mm poft pubiicmonem repel- 
 
 fo foully : Nor may file by any t Law 
 
 take benefit of a Teftimony , which her tra. t tx. &ibi GloflT. c. Prafen- 
 ielf hath defamed,and protefted againft. twm 3 1 ' de 
 
 With thefc fBellarmine is pleafed to name Sixe Nu m, i$. 
 Popes y which, he faith, are all of this Opinion . But Cellar x.^deKo. 
 he a adds ? That the/e T eft ’monies Tvill be contemned by the etiam, 
 
 D Oereticks. H * retic “ * 
 
 nentWj &c. 
 
Hdereticks . Good words I pray. I know whom the 
 Cardinall meanes by Hereticks very well. But the 
 bell is, His Call cannot mayhem fo. Nor (hall 
 Ieafily contemne Sixe ancient hops of T ome con- 
 
 fe Xemim in fua caufa creden- curring in Opinioi if apparent verity 
 
 in the thing it felfe do not force me to 
 diffent. And in that Gale l lhall do it 
 without Contempt too. This onelyl. 
 will lay , b That Sixe Topes concurring 
 in opinion lhall have leifc waight with 
 me in their own Caule, than any other 
 Sixe of the more Ancient Fathers . Indeed could 
 Irt ^ Rom ' I Iwallow b Tellarmines Opinion, That the Topes 
 Judgement is Infallible, l would then lubm t without 
 any more adoe. But that will never do' vne with 
 me, unlefle I live till I doate, which I he <ein God 
 I lhall not. 
 
 dum , nifi conf or miter ad Legem 
 * Divinam , Naturalem & Cano- 
 nicamloqtiatur. SoIo.Gerfon, 
 & the Do&ors of Paris cited in 
 Lib.Anon.de Lcclefjaflica & Po- 
 litic a Pot e fiat e, c. 1 6 . Ed. Parif. 
 1612. Now thefe Popes doe 
 not fpeak here conformably to 
 thefe La.wes. 
 
 Pont, 
 
 N u m • 14. Other Proofes than thele Tell ar mine igs not 
 
 to prove, that the Tarticular Qhurch of T e cannot 
 erre in, or from the Faith. And of what fi e thele 
 are to fway any Iudgement , I fubmit tc 1 indif- • 
 fereiit Readers, And having thus examir Bellar- 
 mines Proofes , That the Tarticular Church ' Tome 
 cannot erre in Faith • I now returneto A. C id the 
 Ieiuite, and tell them, that no leluite, ir any 
 other , is ever able to prove any Tarticular Church 
 Infallible . 
 
 N u m. 15. But lor the Tarticular Church of Tome, and the 
 Tope with it , erred it hath. And therefore may erre, 
 EVred l lay it hath , in the Worlhip of mages , and 
 in altering Chrifts Infticution in the blelfed Sacra-* 
 ment, by taking away the Cup from the Peo* 
 pie., and diverle other particulars, as lhall appeare 
 at t after. And as for the Ground, which is prelu- 
 mec o iecure this Church from Errour , "tis very 
 
 remarkable 
 
i 9 
 
 e Rom an a Ecclefa P articularh 
 ncnpoteft err are, perfiftente Roma 
 jip oft o lick Jede. Propoftio bacefi 
 terifsima, & fort age tarn vera 
 cjuam ilia prtma deEortifice.L .4 
 de %pm.Pont.c .4 §.2. And that 
 
 remarkable How the e Learned Cardi- 
 nal! fpeakes in this Cafe. For he tells us, 
 that this Proportion [ So long asS. Pe- 
 ters Chaire is at (Rome, that ‘Particular 
 Church cannot erre in the Faith ] is verijsi - firfl pmofitien is this .• snmmus 
 
 ma 3 moft true ; and yet in the Very next j onnfex , ^ uin totam Ecclefiam 
 , » ■ . , 7 - , 1 ■■ docct,in his qua: ad fid cm pcrti- 
 
 words, tis Fortajje tarn Vera, peradven- nent uuiio cafu cmrc potcft. 
 ture as true as the former ( that is ) That Ibidc - 3- §-n 
 the ‘ Tope when he teaches the whole Church in thofe things 
 which belong to the faith .cannot erre in any cafe, What? is 
 that Proportion molt true? And yet is it but at a per* 
 adventure’ tis as true as this? Isitpoflibleany thing 
 Ihould be abfolutely moft true ; and yet under a Per ad- 
 venture- that it is but as true as another truth ? But here 
 without all Ter adventure neither Proportion is true: 
 
 And then indeed Bellarmine may fay without a For - 
 taftefThat this proportion : The Particular Church of 
 Tome cannot erre, fo long as the Sea c Apoftolikeis there , 
 is as true as this : The Tope cannot erre .while he teaches 
 the whole Church in thofe things which belong to the Faith. 
 
 For neither of them is true. But he cannot fay that 
 eithcDofthem is Verifsima, moft true, when neither 
 of them hath Truth. 
 
 i. Secondly, if the Particular Church of Tome Num. 16 . 
 be Infallible , and can neither erre in the Faith , nor 
 fall from it, then it is becaufe th cSed u Apoftohke can- 
 not be transferred from Tome , but mult ever to the 
 confummatioirof the World, remaine there, and 
 keepe that Particular Church from erring. Now to 
 this what fayes Bellarmine ? what ? why he tells us, 
 
 4 That itis a pious, and moft pro- * Pia & probabilifsuna Senten. 
 
 W. Opinion to think, fo. And ho " 
 
 reckons Foure Probabilities,that it ftiall inde Rom An am Ecclefiam abfo° 
 never be remov’d from (Rome. And I 77* !'s1w 
 
 will not deny, but lome or them are nihilomimis. 
 
 D z faire 
 
20 
 
 cundum. 
 
 «• 3 * 
 
 faire Probabilities ; But yet they are but Proba- 
 bilities , and fo unable to convince any man. 
 Why but then, what if a man cannot thinke as Zte/- 
 larmine doth , but that enforced by the light of his 
 underftanding,he muft thinke the quite contrary to 
 this,which BeRarmine thinks pious, and fo probable? 
 fc Contrma fen - What then ? Why, then b BeRarmine himfelfe tells you, 
 tentU nec t k ac q U i te contrary Proportion to this, namely, 
 
 feHe erronea. l. T hat S. Peter s Cbayrc may be J wend from \ome , and 
 4- de Rom. Tom. t jj at t jj en xhat Particular Church may erre, is neither Ha* 
 e. 4 . §. At fe- re ^ ca j^ nor erroneous. So then, by Be liar mines 
 
 owne Confefsion , 1 am no Htereticke, nor in any ma - 
 nifeft error ,if I fay (as indeed I doe, and thinke it too) 
 that us posfible for S. Peters CMire to be carried 
 from Pome, and that then at leaft,by his owne argu- 
 ment, that Church may erre. 
 
 Now then upon the whole matter , and to re- 
 turne to A. C. If that Lady defired to rely upon a 
 particular infallible Church, ’tis not to be found on 
 earth .Ppme hath not that gift, nor her Bijhop neither. 
 And r BeRarminc (who I thinke was is able as any 
 Champion that Church hath)dares nt tfay,ti$£ither 
 Harefie , ora manifeft error, to fay, That the ApoUoIike 
 Sea may be removed thcnce,and 7 hat ( hurch not only 
 erre in F aith , but alfofaR quite away from n . Now I for 
 my part have not ignorance enough h me to be- 
 lieve, That that Church which may a 'poftati^e at 
 fome one time, may not erre at another. Efpecially 
 fince both her erring, and failing may arife from 
 other Caufes , befides that, which is m« ntion* d by 
 the Cardinal And it may erre, us not Inf dlible . 
 
 N U M. 17. 
 
 42, 
 
 
 F* The Queftion was , Which was that Church ? 
 A friend of the Ladies would needs . xfend* That 
 not only the Ppmam \ but alfo the Greek Church 
 wasrighu B. When 
 
11 
 
 §• 4 ** 
 
 B. When that Honourable Perfomge anfwef- §• 4. 
 
 ed, I was not by to heare. But I prelume, He was fo 
 
 farre from granting, that only the Romane Church was 
 
 rights that He did not grant it right : And that He 
 
 tooke on him no other Defence o t the poo; e Greek? 
 
 Church , then was according to truth. 
 
 » 
 
 p. J told bim,Thdt the Greeke Church had plainly 
 changedy and taught falfe in aRoynt of Do- 
 Urine concerning the Holy Ghoft • and That I 
 had heard fay, that even His AMajeftieJhould 
 fay , That the Cftreeke Church having erred 
 againfi the Holy Ghoft fad loft the Holy Qboft. 
 
 B- You are very bold with His SWajetty, to § 5 
 relate Him upon Heare-fay. My Intelligence 
 ferves me not to tell you what His Majeftie laid : 
 
 But if he faid it not, you have beene too credulous to 
 believe,and too fuddaine to report it. (princes deferve, 
 and were wont to have, more refped: than fo If His 
 Majeftie did fay it y there is Truth in the fpccch ; 7 he 
 error is yours only, by miftakmg what is meant by 
 hoofing the HAy Ghoft , Fora * Particular Church m ay 
 be faid to loole the Holy C/hoft two wayes, or in two 
 Degrees. 1. The one, when itloofes fuch (peciali af* 
 flftance of that BlefTed Spirit, as preferves it from all 
 dangerous Errors, and finnes, and the temporall pu- 
 niflunent, which is due unto them: And in this fen fe 
 the Greeke Church did perhaps loofe the Holy CjhoSl *. for 
 they erred againft Him, they finned againft God, 
 
 And for this, or other finnes, they were delivered in- 
 to another GBtbyloniJh Captivity under the Turkey in 
 which they yet are ; and from which, Godin his 
 
 mercy deliver them. But this is rather to be called 
 
 ^ 1 _ " 
 
 an Error circa Spiritum Santturn, about the Do&rine 
 
 D $ concerning 
 
 / 
 
zz §•<?• 
 
 concerning the Holy Ghoft, then an error againft 
 the Holy Ghoft* 2. The other is, when it loofesnoc 
 only this afsiftance,but all afsiftanc e ad hoc , to this , 
 that they may remaine any longer a true Church 3 and 
 fo, Qormth and Ephefus, and divers other Churches 
 have loft the Holy Ghoft. But in this fenfe the whole 
 Greeke Church loll not the Holy Qhoft. For they con- 
 tinue a true Church in the maine Jubilance, to and 
 at this day, though erroneous in this Poynt, which 
 you mention, and perhaps in Tome other too. 
 
 p. The Ladies friend jiet knowing what to anfycer, 
 called in the Biftjop, who fitting downe fir ft , ex- 
 cufedhimfelfe as one unprovided, and not much 
 ftudied in QontroVerfies ; and de firing that in 
 Cafehejhouldfaile syet the Proteftant Caufe 
 might not be thought ill of 
 
 C $. J 3 . This is moil true. Fori did indeed excufe 
 
 my felfe, and I had great reafon To to doe. And my 
 Reafon being grounded upon CModeftie for the 
 moftpart, there I leave it. Yet this it may be fit, 
 others ihould know, that I had no information 
 where the other Conferences brake off 3 noinftru- 
 Ction at all what fhould be the ground of this third 
 Conference $ nor the full time offbure and twenty 
 houres to bethinke my felfe. And this I take upon 
 my Credit is moft true : whereas you make the 
 lifting of thefe, and the like Qujeflions to the Very 
 Branne your daily work, and came throughly furni- 
 fhed to the bufincfle,and might fo leade on the Con- 
 tro verfic to what your felfe plcafed,and I was to fol- 
 -De util. Cre- ^ oVv as l could. *S .jiuguftine faid on ce^Scio me in- 
 validum efte > I know I am weake, and yet he made 
 good his Caufe. And fo perhaps may I againft you. 
 
 And 
 
 ,K * " f 
 
 \ 
 
 s 
 
§• 7 * 
 
 And in that I prefer d the Caufe before my particular 
 credit, that which I did, was with modefty , and ac- 
 cording to ^ eafon . For there is no %eafon the waight 
 of this whole Caufe fhould reft upon any one par- 
 ticular man. And great %eafon , that 'the perfonall 
 Defers of any man fhould prefle himfelfe, but not 
 the Caufe. Neither did l enter upon this Service, out 
 of any forwardnelfe of my owne,tmt commanded 
 to it by Supreame Authority . 
 
 i 
 
 p. It having an hundred better Schollers to main* 
 tame it than he. To Ibkick I faid , there were a 
 thoufand better Schollers than I to maintaine the 
 Catholih Qaufe . 
 
 B* In this I had never Co poore a Conceit of 
 the tProteJiants Caufe , as to thinke, that they had 
 but an hundred better than my ielfe to maintaine 
 it. That which hath an hundred , may have as 
 many more, as itpleafcs God to give, and more 
 than you. And 1 fhall ever bee glad, that the 
 Church of England ( which, at; this time, if my 
 memory reflect not amide, 1 named) may have 
 farre more able Defendants, than my felfe. I 
 fhall never envie them , but rejoyce for Ha:. And 
 I make no Queftion , but that if \ had named a 
 thoufand , you would have multiplied yours into 
 ten Thoufand , for the Catholike Qaufe ( as you call 
 it.,) And this Confidence of yours hath ever 
 beene fuller of noyfe than Proofe. But you pro- 
 ceed. 
 
 F. Then the Queftion about the Greeke Church 
 being propojed y I Jaid as before , That it had 
 erred . 
 
 B, Then 
 
V 
 
 I 
 
 24 
 
 S.8 
 
 $• 8 . 
 
 / 
 
 B- Then I thinke the Queflion about the 
 Greeke Church was propofed. But after you had 
 with confidence enough not (pared to lay 3 That 
 what I would not acknowledge in this Caufe, 
 you would wring , and extort from me . then 
 indeed you faid as before- that it had erred : 
 And this no man denied. But every Errour de- 
 nies not Chrijly the Foundation; or makes Chrijl 
 denic it , or thruft it from the Foundation. 
 
 p. The Bijbop faid , That the Errour ^>as not in 
 Point Fundamental l. 
 
 §•<>. 
 
 N u m. i. 
 
 • Non ex Fitio, 
 fed Spiritism Fi- 
 lii ejfe dtiimtis. 
 DamafcenuZ.i. 
 Fid. Orth. c. n. 
 Et Parris per 
 filium. Ibid. 
 
 Num,2. 
 
 g. I was not fb peremptory. My fpeech 
 was , That diverfe Learned men , and fome of 
 your owne , were of opinion, That (as the Greeks 
 exprejjed themfehes ) it was a Queftion not (imply 
 Fundamental. I know, and acknowledge that 
 Errour of denying the Procefion of the Holy Gboji 
 from the Sonne ? to be a grievous errour in Divini- 
 ty. And (ure, it would have grated the Foun- 
 dation , if they had lo denied the Procefion of the 
 Holy Ghojl from the Sonne , as that they had nude 
 an inequality betweenc the Perfons. But fince their 
 forme of Ipeech is, z That the Holy GhoH proceeds 
 from the Father by the Sonne , and is the Spirit of 
 the Some , without making any difference in the 
 Conjubftantiality of the Perfons j I dare not denie 
 them to bee a true Church- for this • though I 
 confeffe them an Erroneous Church in this Par- 
 ticular. 
 
 Now that diverfe learned men were of Opini- 
 on, That<* Filio } per Filium , in the lenfe of the 
 
 Greeke Church, was but a Queftion in modo loquendi^ 
 
 • 
 
 in 
 
§• ?• 
 
 *5 
 
 ill manner cf b Plurality in Voce,falvatd unit ate in re, nm repugmt unit at i 
 
 , T *b A Fidei.Dwx^d.Lib.^.d. 25.7.2. . 
 
 ipeech , and e Magift.I .Sent.d . li.D. Sane feiendum eft, quod licet inprxfenti’ 
 
 therefore not Articulo anobd Gr&civerbo difeordent , tamen fenftu non dijferunt, 
 'n , , 7 - &e. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11. & Bonavcnr. in 1 Sent. d.n. 
 
 J? UYlu rtVYlSYltdlly LS osi, i. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Grac is inf enftfsimus , quum dixit Greece s 
 
 evident. c The objicere curio fttatem Rcmanis , addendo (\ ilioqjJ [me ha • 
 t~itA ji and hie j us *s4rticuli prof eftsione [alas erat j non Refpondet negando falutem 
 U la ,ter,Z a ms ^ ^icit t ant urn opportune fuiffe Deternunationem propter 
 
 Scbollers agree periculum. Etp flea, §. 15 . Sunt quivolmt fuftinere opinionem 
 Upon it ^Tbc Gracorum, & Laiinorum, diJUnguendo duplkem modum Eroce - 
 1 if* ' L L dendi. 
 
 G yn€t\S (lalth he) Sed forte ft duo fapientes , anus Gracuf, alter Latinus, uterqns ve- 
 confeffe the Holy rus amator Veritatis, & non propria dittionis &c. de hac vtfa con - 
 J ft. j y trartetate difquirercnt , patent utique tandem ipfam ( ontrarieta - 
 yJthOst tO bee tl)C temnon effe veraciter rcalcm 3 [cut eft Vocalis. Scoiusm i. Sent. 
 Spirit of the Soil d. ii.q.i. Anti quorum Cjr&corum d Latins diferepantia in voce 
 * ’+U +1 A fl-f potius eft , &modo expltcandi Emanationem Sp. S . qudm in ipftd 
 WttD trie <yipCftle, g rC ' i oc j ocus Clidoveus in EAamafc. L. 1 . Fid. Orth. c.\u 
 
 Galath.Jf. and the Et quidam ex Cjrdtcts conccdunty quod fit dFilio, vcl ab eo profit- 
 c hiy : f n i truth *t % Thom. p. i.q.tf.A. 2. C.Et Thomas ipfedicit,Sp. S.pro- 
 a *' W 3 cedere mediate d Filio. ib. A. 3. ad 1. faltem ratione E trfbnarum 
 
 S. lohn I 6 . <^And Spirantium. 
 
 fince Non eh Refpondeo cumReffarione, & Cjemadio , Damafcenum non negate 
 J ' ‘ Sp. S. procedere ex Filio, quod ad remattinet, quum dixerit Spi • 
 
 ritum effe Imagincm Filii,& per F ilium , fed exiftimaffe tutius 
 dici per F ilium, qudm ex Filio, quantum ad modum loquendi, &c . 
 Ikllarm. L. 2. de. £ hriflo c. 27. §. %efpondeo igitur. Et Toilet. 
 
 Io ^ n * 5 * ^ r ' 2 >‘ & Lutheran. Re ftp. ad%efp. 2. IeremU 
 
 is the spirit of Patriarch*. 
 
 the Father ^an^the Sonne [then that He is, or proceeds from 
 
 the Father > and the Sonne Jn this They feeme to agree Soitb 
 
 us in eandem Fidei fententiam, upon the fame Sentence 
 
 of Faith ^though they differ in words . Now in this caufe, 
 
 where the words differ, but the Sentence of Faith is 
 
 the fame/ 1 penitus eadem, even altogether the fame, A Pnompenh iis 
 
 Can the Point be fundamental!} You may make them y^faikov^ 
 
 no Church ( as e BeHarmine doth ) and fo deny them c Bdlarm. 4. 'de 
 
 falvation • which cannot be had out of the true 
 
 Church; but I for my part dare not fo do. And Rome temapufjrtcos. 
 
 in this Particular fhould be more moderate, if it be 
 
 but becaufe this Article ( Filio ) was added to the 
 
 Creed, by her felfe. And ns hard to adde } and Ana - 
 
 thematic too, 
 
 E It 
 
 aliud,^ is not an- 
 other thing to fay, 
 The Holy Ghofl 
 

 26 
 
 N u m » 
 
 'y 
 
 •> 4 
 
 §. IO, 
 
 It ought tobenoeafietbing, to condemns a 
 man of ' Here fie, in foundation of faith > much Idle, a 
 Church j leaft of all, fo ample and large a Church as 
 the Greeke , specially fo, as to make them ?;o Qhurcb. 
 Heaven Gates were not fo eafily fliut again ft multi- 
 tudes, when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his owns gir- 
 dle. And it is good counfell , which a c Alpbonjusa 
 Caftro , one of your owne, gives • Let them confider that, 
 pronounce eafily of Here fie, bow eajie it is for themf elves 
 to erre. Or if you will pronounce, confider what it is 
 that feparates from the Church Amply , and notin 
 part only. I muft needs profeffe, that I wifh heartily, 
 (as well as b others , ) that thofe diftrefled msa, whole 
 Croffeis hea vie already 3 had;beene moreplainly,and 
 moderately dealt withall, though they thinkcadi- 
 verfe thing from us, then they have beetle by the 
 Church of Rom . But hereupon you fay you were 
 forc'd, 
 
 F- Whereupon 1 was forced to repeaic what I had 
 formerly brought againftD. White, Concern- 
 ing 1 Points Fundament all. 
 
 B- Hereupon it is true , that you read a large 
 Difcourfeoutof a Booke printed, which, you faid, 
 was yours,The Particulars (all of them at thelcaft) 
 I do not now remem ber,nor did I then approve.But 
 
 * F. Firft righting the Sentence ofS.Juftine : if they be fuch, U Were for- 
 Ftrendus eft ‘Difputator errans.&c. Here A. (f. merl y brought againft Do- 
 
 f 4S,”2,B'iX',‘S f* m :“’ »«by kin. 
 
 tcnce of s. ji»j}>ne. whereas i here ufe the formerly anlwered. The 
 
 Word righting , not at it is oppofed to reading fi r ft thing y OU did. Was the 
 (as any man may dilcerne . Q % palpably - - . ® - 
 
 miftakes) but for doing right to S . Anftine, And 
 if I had meant it fox writing , I fhould not 
 have lpelled it fo. 
 
 a Lib. cant. 
 Hareffol.p^.A. 
 Vt vide Ant ht>qni 
 faeile de bar eft 
 pronmtiant , qua 
 facile etiam ip ft 
 errant : E't intel- 
 ligant, non ejfe 
 tam leviter dc 
 Hareft cenfendu. 
 €rc. Jn verbo 
 (Bcatitudo.) 
 b Junius } Anim- 
 ad.inBellar.Cont. 
 ■ 2 . L.i.c.23. 
 
 §. IO. 
 
 N.U M. I, 
 
 * righting of S ,Augufim : 
 winch Sentence I doe not 
 at all remember was fo 
 
 muc h 
 
§. 10 , 
 
 
 % 
 
 much as named in the Conference^ much Ieflewas 
 it Hood upon, and then righted by you. Another 
 place of S. Augufline indeed was ( which you omit j ) 
 
 But it comes after, about Tradition , to which I remit 
 it. But no w you tell us of a great Proofe made out of ^ ^ ^ 
 
 this t Place :For thefe words of yours containe two proved .That all 
 Proportions . One, T bat ad Poynts defined by the P°y nts Dcfined 
 Church are Fundamental / $ The other. That this is areFnndSna^ 
 proved out of this ‘Place of S. Augufline. al *‘ 
 
 i . For the firft, That all foynts defined by the Church N u m . 2 . 
 are fundamental l : It was not the leaft mcanes , by 
 which Rome grew to her Greatnefle, to blaft every 
 Oppofer fhe had with the name of Heretic ke>or Schifi 
 tnaUckefior this ferved to fhri vel the credit of the Per- 
 fons. And thePerfons once brought into contempt, 
 and ignominie, all the good they defired in the 
 Church, fell to dufl/or want of creditable Perfons 
 to backe^nd fupport it. To make this Proceeding 
 good in thele later year es, 
 
 * Yourowne word. 
 
 b lnconeu(Ja fide at omnibus. Thom. 2.2<£. H 
 Art. jo. f, 
 
 c Scours 1, Sent. d. 1 1. ej. r. 
 
 ^ See left a Voces etiam extra Sc rift Ur am. Stap^ 
 Relett.Qon.^.cf. I. Ar. 3. JW mature judicio 
 Church , Ore thereby Funda- definivit &c .Sohdum efi, & etiamfinuilo Scrip* 
 
 Went all k necefiarv to be belief tHTarHm > autevidenti, autprobaUliteJHmonio 
 J C f r t n r 1 co »firtnaretur i ibid. 
 
 Cd> 3 Of the Jmjtance of the e Jit penes Cercoyes Victoria fit, Greg. NaZ.' 
 
 Faith , and that, though it be deDifferen. vita. Cercopes. i - Aftutos , &ve~ 
 
 , 1 • , c ter at or it improbitam Spifcopos, mi artibus fuis 
 
 determined quite extra M fofc omnia Concilia perturbabant. SchoJ. ib 0 ; 
 
 Scripturam. And then c leave 
 the wife, and a&ive Heads to take order, that there 
 be ftrength enough ready to determine what is fit- 
 teftfor them. 
 
 But fince thefe men diftinguifh not, rtor you,be- N u m . y* 
 tweene the Church in generally and a General! Councell, 
 which is but her Reprefentation } for Determinations 
 
 E % ~ ~ of 
 
 o ^ / 7 
 
 thisCourfe (itieemes) was 
 taken.The Schoolep hat mull 
 maintaine (and fo they doe) 
 That all Points Defined by the 
 
 t 
 

 2 8 
 
 f Qmm enim 
 urta & eadem fi- 
 de* /itpteqi * s °l H * 
 multum cU ipfd 
 dicer e potejipluf- 
 qftam oportet, di- 
 cit-neque quipa- 
 rltm , ipfam im- 
 minuit. Iren. L» 
 1. adverf. h&ref . 
 e.3. 
 
 Num, fi. 
 
 §. 10. 
 
 of the Faith, though I be very flow In flfting, or op- 
 pofing what is concluded by Lawful!, General!, and 
 confendng Authority, though I give as much as can 
 juftly be given to the Definitions of Councels tru*y 
 Generali : nay,fuppofe I fhould grant (which 1 doe 
 not) That Generali Councells cannot erre ; yet this can- 
 not do wne with me,T hat allPoynts evenfo defined aye 
 Fundament all. For Deductions are not prime, and na- 
 tive Principles ; nor are Super ftruCtures , Foundations 1 
 That which is a Foundation for all , cannot be one , 
 and another, to different Chriftians in regard of it 
 felfe j for then it could be no common Rule for any, 
 nor could thefoules of men reft upon a Jhaking foun- 
 dation. No : If it be a true Foundation > it muft be com- 
 montoall , and firme under all s in which fenfe the^r- 
 tides ofQmflian Faith are Fundament all. And f Irene- 
 us layes this for a ground, That the whole Church 
 (ho wfoever difperfedin place ) fpeakes this with 
 one mouth He , u> hich among t he Guides of the QhUrch 
 is befl able to fpeak ^utters no more then this; and lejje then 
 thisfhe mofl fimple doth not utter. Therefore the Creed 
 (of which he fpeaks ) is a commands a conftant Founda- 
 tion. And an Explicite faith muft be of this, in them 
 which have the ufeof Reafon; for both Guides and 
 fimple people, All the Church utter this. 
 
 Now many things are defined by the Churchy w ch 
 are but Deductions out of this: whiefg (fuppofe them 
 deduced right) move far from the Foundation ; without 
 which Deductions explicitly believed, many millions 
 of Chriftians go to Heavcn;and cannot therefore be 
 Fundamentally thefaith.Truc Deductions from the Ar- 
 ticle may require neceflary beliefe,in them which are 
 able, and do go along with them from the Principle 
 to the Conclufion. But I do not fee, either that the 
 Learned do make them neceffary to all> or any reafbn, 
 
 - why 
 
I 
 
 §. IO, 
 
 20 
 
 N u m. 5 * 
 
 i * f . 
 
 2 Refolutio Occhami eft, quod, nec 
 tot a Eerie fid, nec Concilium Cje - 
 tier ale ', fummtts Eomifex 
 
 pctcsl facere Articulum , quod 
 non futt Articulus . Sea in du- 
 hies propojitionibus potcjl Eerie* 
 fiadeterrninare , an jint Catholi- 
 cs, &c. Earner. jic deter minando 
 non facit quod Jint Catholics, 
 quum print ejjent ante Ecclefue 
 < T)eterminationem i &c. Alma in. 
 in 3. *2). 25. £). I. 
 b Regula Eidci una omnino efl,fo~ 
 Id ilia immobilis , & irr e forma- 
 bills. Tcrrul. deVirg.vd.cap, 1. 
 Inhac fide,&c. Nihil trnnfmu - 
 tare, ( ire. Athan. Epifi , ad Io« 
 vin. de fide. 
 
 why they fliould. Therfofe they cannot be Fundame- 
 talf 3c yet to fotne mens Salvation they are neceflary. 
 
 Bdides , that which is Fundamental in the batch 
 ©fChrift, is ztf{ockt immoveable , andean never be 
 varied. Never 3 . Therefore, if it be 
 Fundament all after the Church hath de- 
 fined it , it was F undam entail before the 
 Definition ,* els it is ?nooVeable i and then 
 no Chriftian hath where to reft.. And if 
 it be immooveable , as b indeed it is, no 
 Decree of a Councell , be it never fo 
 Generali, can alter immooveable Verities , 
 no more than it can change immooveable 
 Natures . Therefore if the Church in a 
 Councell define any thing, the thing de- 
 fined is not Fundamental! , bccaufe the 
 Church hath defined it; nor can be 
 made lb by the Definition of the 
 Church, if it be not fo in it felfe. For if the Church 
 had this power, fhc might make a New Article of c Occham. AI- 
 the Faith, C ivhich the Learned among your f elves deny : main, in 3. Sent* 
 For the Articles of the Faith cannot increafc in fub~ I 2 2 
 
 fiance, but onely in Explication d. And for this, ITe be q.i.j r ,j.c . 
 judg'd by Bellarmine , { who difputing 
 
 again It A mb. fat 3 annus about the cer- certitudinem^ quia toti Ecclefiee 
 tainty of Faith , tels us , That Divine communis ejl : fed quid nititur 
 
 Faith bath not its certainty , becau/e ’ tis Ca - 
 thohke , .i. common to the whole Church ; but 
 becaufe it builds on the Authority of God , 
 if ho is Truth it f elf and can neither deceive, 
 nor be deceived. And he addes, That the 
 ' Probation of the Qourch can make it known 
 to all , that the ObjeEl of Divine Faith is re - 
 Vealed from God, a?id therefore cert nine , and 
 not to be doubted , but the Church canadde no certainty • 
 no firmenejfe to the word of God revealing it ~ Nor 
 
 Authoritdte Dei , qui nec f alii y 
 nec fallere potefl , quum fit ipfa 
 Veritas, L 3. de Juftif ’ c. 3. 
 Quod verb Corcilium. 
 Erobatio Ecclefia facit ut omni- 
 bus innote feat Obje&um ( Eidei 
 c Divim ) ejfe revelatum a Deo, 
 & propter hoc certum & indubi -» 
 tattim ; non autem tribuit firmi- 
 tatem verbo <Dei aliquid rev e=> 
 I ant is. Ibid. § . At inquit. 
 
\ 
 
 50 §• I0 * 
 
 Num. e. Nor is this hard to be farther proved out of your 
 
 \ Sco % ln l ' owne Scheole; For * Scotus profefleth it in this very 
 * particular of the Greeke Church : If there be (faith he) 
 a true reall difference betweene the Oreekes and the La* 
 tines , about the Toint of the Vroceftton A M he Holy Ghoft, 
 then either they, or we be vere na uly and indeed 
 
 Hereticks * And he Ipeakes this <. e old Greek.es, 
 long before any Decifion of the Church in this 
 Controverlie : For his inftance is in S. Safi, and 
 Greg* Na^ian^. on the one fide, and S Jerome, Augu- 
 fine, and Ambrofe, on the other. And who dares call 
 any of thefe Hereticks ? is his challenge. I deny not^but 
 that Scotus adds there , That howloever this was 
 before , yet ex quo, from the time that the Catholike 
 Church declared it, it is to be held, as of the fib (lance 
 of Faith . But this cannot Hand with his former 
 Principle , if he intend by it , That whatloever the 
 Church defines, lhall be ipfo faElo, and for that De- 
 terminations fake FundamentalL For if before the De- 
 termination (fiippofing the Difference reall) fome of 
 thole Worthies were truly Hereticks, (as he confefles) 
 then lomewhat made them fo. And that could not 
 be the Decree of the Church, which then was not: 
 Therefore it mull be lomwhat really falle, that made 
 them fo- and fundamentally falje ^ if it made them He- 
 
 * Bellarm. L. 2. de Cone. Auth. 
 e.i 2 , Concilia cum definiunt, non 
 faciunt a liquid ejfe infallibilis ve- 
 ritaus /^declarant. Explicare, 
 
 Bonavent. in\.d.n, A.i.q.i. 
 ad ftnem . Explanare,declarare, 
 
 Tho. I.q.^ 6 . \A. 2. ad. 2 . & 
 
 2.2 ,q. 1. A. 10. ad. 1. 
 
 JQ ttid unquarn altud ( Ecclefia) 
 
 Comiliorum r Decrctis enifa eft, 
 nift ut quod ante a implicit er ere- 
 debate hoc idem poftea diligen - 
 tins crederetur. Vijl. Lyr. cent. 
 
 reticks againfl the Foundation. But Scotus 
 was wiler, than to intend this. Itmay 
 be, he law the ftreamc too ftrong for 
 him to Iwim againft, therfore he went 
 on with the doctrine of the Time, That 
 the Churches Sentence is of the fubfance of 
 Faith • But meant not to betray he truth: 
 For he goes no further than Ecclefa de - 
 claravitfincc the Church hath declared 
 it,whichi$the Word that isuledby di- 
 verle b . Now 
 
 \ 
 
§. 10 . 
 
 * ? - 'f 
 
 Now the 3 Matter teaches, and the b Schollers too, N u m . 7. 
 That everything which belongs to the Expolition b Aib^Mag. 1 ^ 
 or Declaration of another, intns eft, is not another 1. Sent. d. h 
 contrary thing, but is contained within the Bowels, 
 and nature of that which is interpreted: from 
 which, if the Declaration depart, it is faulty and erro- 
 neous, becaule inftead of Declaring,it gives another, 
 and contrary c fetife. Therefore, when the Church 
 declares any thing in a Councell , either that which rea, vin, Lyr. 
 fhe declares, was intns, or extra , in the Nature and Ve- c ' 3 2 * 
 rity of the thing , or out of it. If it were extra , without 
 the nature of the thing declared, then d , . „ - T . 
 
 , „ . . c P i- • r ir d In nova Htreft Verttas phus 
 
 the Declaration or the thing IS talie, erst de Vide, etfinon itadecla- 
 
 and to,farre from being Fundament all in r f ta ' ^ otus tn J *-p. “•?. i.*» 
 
 1 c • 1 A 1 C • • ' • 1 - 1 r ne - Haretict mult a qm erant 
 
 the rattb . It it were tntus , within the implicit* fidei mfkr* ; comfM i e „ 
 Compafle and nature of the thing, r ftf lt ex F icare - Bonavent. in 1 . 
 
 though not open and apparent to every T ho. .. 3 2. £, a d 
 eye; then the Declaration is true, but not V!1 Afofie/ha Sties , * H t Gem - 
 other wife Fundamentally than the thing % 
 
 is, which is declared: for that which f ertio ali w* £ rh Harefts 3 
 
 is intits, cannot be larger or deeper than J > cde I^. H inivu * f e(i l hta fi ~ 
 that in which it is * if it were, it could 
 not be intits. Therefore nothing is Jimply 
 Fundament all, becaufe the Church declares 
 
 it , but becaufe it is ft in the nature of the 
 thing , which the Church declares . 
 
 And it is a Highland poorcEvafion that is corn- N u m. 8. 
 monly ufed, that the Declaration of the Church 
 makes it Fundamental!, quoad nos, inrefpe£tof us ; 
 for it doth not that neither : For no refpedt to us 
 can varie the Foundation , The Churches Decla- 
 ration can binde us to peace, and cxternall Obedi- 
 ence, where there is not exprefle Letter of Scrip- 
 ture, and fenle agreed on ,• but it cannot make any 
 thing Fundamentall to us , that is not fo in its owne 
 
 nature* 
 
 Jt-u ejrita tt- 
 
 dei Catholic a reph^UAC, Ucc li- 
 ft* Jiquidem fid JLfimtione non 
 ) act t talcifi jijj cr thrum c ffe Ida- 
 reftn y quaw etiamfi ipfa non deft- 
 whiffet, effet Harcfis-fid idefftcit 
 ut pate at , &c. Aiphon. a 0(1 ro 
 Is. i .AdvcrfJUref. c.%:fol,ii,D. 
 
V* 
 
 §. io: 
 
 Lir. c. 32. 
 fDeut.4.2. 
 
 * Thom. Supp 
 q, 6. J.6. C. 
 
 nature. For if the Church can fo adde, that it 
 can by a Declaration make a thing to be Fundamental 
 in the faith, that was nor, then it cm take a thing 
 away from the Foundation, and make it by Declaring, 
 not to beFundamentall ; which all men grant, no 
 c Ecciefia non power of the Church can doe. e For the power of ad- 
 amp ut at nccefu ding any thing contrary, and of detracting any thing ne- 
 
 in! ce ff ar ^ we alike forbidden , * and alike denyed Now 
 nothing is more apparent, then this, to the eye of all 
 men, i hat the Church of^ome hath determined, or 
 declared, or defined ( call it what you will) Very ma- 
 ny things, that are not in their owne nature Funda- 
 mentally and therefore neither are, nor can be made 
 fo by her adjudging them. Now to all this Dil- 
 eourfe , That the Church hath not power to make 
 any thing Fundamentall in the Faith, thg t intrinfecady , 
 and in its owne nature is not fuch, AC. is content 
 to lay nothing. 
 
 z For the fecond, That it is proofed by this place 
 of S . Auguftine, That aUToynts defined by the Church 
 are Fundamentall You might have given me that 
 Place cited in che Margin , and ealed my paines to 
 leekeit y but it may be there was fomewhat in con- 
 cealing it. For you doe lo extraordinarily right this 
 Place, that you were loth (I rhinke) any body Ihould 
 fee, how you wrong it. The place of S Augufiineis 
 this, againft the Pelagians , about Remilfion of Ori- 
 c « , , , „ ginallfinne in Infants : * This is a 
 
 1 2 .FuUttareseft m inaiiis gmSHom- thing founded ,\ An erring V iff uter 
 
 bus non diligent er digeJHs nondum plena U to be home With in Other §}Ue\Vl0m 
 
 eji ‘Difputaterr err am : ibi ferendus eft not diligently digested, nOt yet made 
 error-, yen tantum progredi debet, ut eti- fiWld by full Authority of the Church , 
 
 remAiaZZ Cmtm €ccle £* 1“*“' there, error is to be borne with : but it 
 
 ought not to gee fo farre , that it fhould 
 We of the Church. This 
 
 Num. 9 . 
 
 is 
 
 I 
 
 
3 ? 
 
 §. io. 
 
 is the Place : but it can never follow out of tins 
 Place (l thinke) That every thing defined by the Church 
 
 is Fundamental. 
 
 for firtt , he fpeakes of a Foundation of DoElrtne N u m . io. 
 
 in Scripture , not a Church definition. This appearcs: 
 for, fewlin .ore, betels us, *> T here wets a Quefhon 
 
 moved to S. Cyj an, Whether I Baptijme V ms concluded to 
 the eight Day, as mil as Ctrcumcijion ? And no doubt 
 was made then of the c beginning of jtn , and that s out of c Orif-nc Pec- 
 tins thing, about ivhtch no Question was mooVed , that 
 Queflim that was made , was Anfwered. AncPagame y nulla erat Flux* 
 lhatS Cvprvan tookethat which he gave in anjwer JH°, [alma eft ex- 
 from the Foundation of the Church , to confirme a j tone c H ^ Fmda . 
 that was fhaktng. Now S. Cyprian in all the Anfwer mento Ecclefic 
 that he gives , hath not one word of any Definiti-'>^ £ 
 on of the Church •* therefore ea res, That thing by ^idemmuntem. 
 which he anfwered ,was a Foundation of prime, and 
 fetled Scripture' Vottrme , not any Definition of the 
 Church : Therefore, that which he tooke out of the 
 Foundation of the Church, to fatten the ftone that 
 fhooke, was not a Definition of the Church, but tne 
 Foundation of the Church it icUc,the Scripture, upon 
 which it is builded : asappeareth inch c e Milenitane f Condi. Mile. 
 Councell ; where the ^ ule , by which Telagius was z ' lUC - 2 ' 
 condemned, is the (Z \ule of-Scriptur ^Therefore Saint gRom. 5. 15. 
 
 goes on in the fame fenfe. That theDii- 
 ****gf*J” & nrnh h Vt Jrmdamen* 
 
 puter is not to be borne any longer, that jball en. tum 
 
 deaVour to (hake the Foundation it Jelfe, upon which the cUfi* qmtsrc 
 . r , , ' 1 . j j molUtnr , 
 
 whole C hurt b ts grounded . 
 
 Secondlyhf S .Augufline did mcane by Founded, and ^ u llt 
 Foundation, the definition of the 0&«rci,becaufe of theie 
 Words,! his thing is Founded this is made firm by full Au- 
 thority oftheCburchymd the words following thefe, to 
 fbake the foundation of the Church , yet it can never fol- 
 low out ofany^or all thefe Circumftances (and thefe 
 
 I are 
 
3-f 
 
 c iTim. 3.15. 
 
 §. 10 . 
 
 are all ) That all foynts defined hy the Church , are 
 Fundamentall in the faith. For fir ft, no man denies, but 
 rhe Church is a c Foundation ; That things defined 
 by it, are founded upon it : And yet hence it cannot 
 follow, That the thing, that is fo founded,is Funda- 
 d Mosfundauf mencallinthe Faith: For things may be d founded 
 S ' AlS ° upon Humane Authority y and be very certaine, yet not 
 Fundamentall in the Faith Nor yet can it follow. 
 This thing u founded, therefore every thing determined 
 hy the Churches founded . Again that which folio wes. 
 That thofe things are not to be oppoied, which are 
 made firme by full Authority of the C hurch, can- 
 not conclude 5 they are therefore Fundamental! m 
 the Faith. For full Church Authority ( alwayes the 
 time that included the Holy Apottles being paft by , 
 and not comprehended in it ) is but Church Authuri 
 ty^nd Church Authority , when it is at full fea is not 
 e Scapic/^^. fitnply^ivineyhctctoxcthcScmcnccolitnot funda - 
 cont^.q. 3. a % i; mentall in the Faith. And yet no erring Difpiuer may 
 be endured to fhake th z foundation^ which the Church 
 in Councell layes. But plaine Scripture with evident 
 fenfe , or a full Vemonflrative Argument 
 1 dd** (jtiidem, ft tam manifefla muff have Roome, where a wrangling 
 
 tnonftratur, ut in dubium venire 1 . nv . ii 1 
 
 non pof sit ,pr£ponenda efl omnibus ^^10. €i ring JjljpUter may HOt be allowed 
 
 iiUs rektis,quibns in (ftathoiica te- it. And ther s 1 neither of th cfef ; t may 
 
 Convince the Definition of , he Conn- 
 Funds. 4. cell, if it be ill founded. And rhe Articles 
 
 of the faith may eafily proove it is not Fundamentall, 
 if indeed, and verily it be not fo. 
 
 Num, 12. And 1 have read fome body that fay es (is it not 
 you? ) That things are fundamentall in the Faith typo 
 wayes : One, in their JAdatter, fuch as are all things 
 whichbe fo in themfelvcsfThe other, in theJAdanner, 
 fuch as are all things, that the Church hath Defined, 
 and determined to be of Faith : And that fo, fome 
 
§. [ 6 . . 
 
 i 
 
 things that are de modo y of the manner of beings are of 
 Faith. Bat in piaine truth, this is no more, then if yon 
 ihould fay, fome things are Fundamental L in th t faith, 
 and fome are not. For wrangle while you will, you 
 {hall never be able to proove, that any thing, which 
 is but ie modo, a confederation of thetnannerof being 
 only, can po/Ilbly be Fundamentall in the faith . 
 
 A nd finceyou makefuch a Foundation of this N 11 
 Place, I will a little view the Mortar, with which it 
 is laid by you. It is a venture, but I lhall finde it 3 un - a Ezek.i 
 tempered. Your Aflertion is • : <Allpoynts defined by the 
 Church 7 are Fundamentall. Your proofe,this Place : Be- 
 caufe that is not to be j haken , which is fetled by h full Au- b pi en k Scdefm 
 thority of the Church Then ( it feemes ) your mean- Atit ' KontAte > 
 ing is, that this poynt there Ipoken of. The remijsion 
 ofOnginatl fwne in Baptifme of Infants , was defined, 
 when S. Augufiine wrote this, by a full Sentence of a 
 Generali Court cell. Firftifyou fay it was • c< Bellarmine c L.i.(k Author. 
 will tell you, it is falfe- and that the Pelagian Here fie itiif pamful^ 
 was never condemned in an Oecumenicall Councell ribus. 
 but only in Nationals. But Bdellar mine is deceived.* 
 
 For while the Pelagians Hood out impudently 
 again 11 Nationall Councels > fome of them defended 
 jSfefloriuSy which gave occafion to the firft J Ephefine * Cm ' u & * 
 Councell to Excommunicate, and depofe them. And 
 yet this will not ferveyour turne for this Place. For 
 S« Augujline was then dead *, and therefore could 
 not meane the Sentence of that Council! in this 
 place. Secondly ,ifyou fay,it was not then Defined ill 
 an Oecumenicall SynodefPlena authority Ecclejheyhc full 
 Authority of the Church there mentioned, doth not 
 ftand properly for the Decree of an Oecumenicall 
 Councell - } but for lomc Nationall ; as this was con- 
 demned in a* E^ationall Councell : And then th c full * c well. Mile- 
 Authority of the Church here, is no more then the full 
 
 F z Authority 
 
f Nay 3 if ^our 
 owne Capeflus 
 be trnc 3 7)<? Ap. 
 pcll.Eccl ,Afric • 
 c.i.n.j. It was 
 s ut a Provinci- 
 al! of Numidia, 
 not a Plenary of 
 Afrkk. 
 
 N 11 M. 14. 
 A.C.p. 45 • 
 
 * Almoin, in 5. 
 Sent ED if. 25 . q. 
 I, A Fide emm 
 unli Eccleftadi- 
 cititr nna . 
 
 Authority of this Church of + Afrkk . And I hope that 
 Authority doth not make all Points defined by it to 
 be Fundamentall. You will fay, yes : if that Coun- 
 cell be confirmed by the Pope. And thenJE muft 
 ever wonder, whyS. Augu/line ftiould fay Ihe full 
 Authority of the Church , and not beftow one word 
 upon the Dope , by whofe Authority only that 
 Councell, as all other, have their fulnefle of Au- 
 thority in your Judgement. An inexpiable OmiA 
 fion 5 if this Do&rine concerning the Dope were 
 true. 
 
 But here A . C. fteps in againe to helpe the 7c- 
 fuite, and he tells us, over and over againe, Ibat all 
 points made fir me hy full Authority of the Church , are 
 Fundamental f fo, firme he will have them, and 
 therefore fundamentall. But I muft tell him : ihac 
 firft, 'ris one thing in Nature, and (Religion ioo } to 
 be firme • and another thing to be fundamentall . 
 Thefe two are hot Convertible : Tis true, that eve- 
 ry thing that is fundamentall, is firme : But it doth 
 not follow, that every thing that is firme, is funda- 
 mentall For many a SuperfiruSlure is exceeding firme y 
 being faft , and clofe joyned to a lure foundation , 
 which, yet no man will grant, is fundamentally Be- 
 fides,what foeveris fundamentall in the faith, is fun- 
 damentall to the Church, which is one by the Vmty a of 
 faith. Therefore if every thing Defined by the 
 Church be fundamentall in the faith • then the 
 Churches Definition is the Churches Foundation. And 
 fo,upon the matter, the Church can lay her owne 
 foundation , and then, the Church muft be in abfoltke 
 and per fell Deing, before fo much as her Found Em is 
 laide.Now this is fo abfurd for any man i . learning 
 tofay,thatbyandbyafcer,d. C. isconten toaffirm, 
 not only, that the prima Credibility the Artie es of Faith 
 
 hut 
 
§. 10 . 
 
 37 
 
 tutalhbhkh fo pertaines to Supernatmll , Divine 7 and 
 Infallible Chriftian Faith ? as that thereby drift doth 
 dwell in our hearts, &c. is the Foundation of the Church 
 under thrift the Prime Foundation. And here he’s Due 
 againe. For firft, all which pertaines 
 
 ro Supernatural^ Divine, and Infallible b liquid pen met ad Eidem du- 
 Chrifim M, is not by and by > F„. »*£ 
 damentall in the Faith to all men. And dimnhns tradna , ut c Deum ejfe 
 fecondly, the whole Difcourfe here is 
 
 concerning Faith ) as it is taken OtyectiVe, fin, &c. Alio modo indirefte. Ex 
 for the Object of Faith, and thing to be ahqutd con- 
 
 Beleeved; but that Faith by which q H is potefl faifam opimri ahfque 
 Chrift is faid to dwell in our hearts , i S P eric fi l ° H*refis, donee Sequela il- 
 
 taken Subjective , for the Habit and Act lathings 
 
 of Faith. Now to confound both thele Neccflary to the Faith: and 
 
 in one period of fpeech, can have no 
 other ayme,than to confound the Rea- 
 der. Rut to come elder both toth elejuite, and his 
 Defender A . C. If all Poynts made firme by full Au- 
 thority of the Church be F undamentall , then they 
 muff grant, that every thing determined by the 
 Councell of Trent , is Fundament all in the Faith, For 
 with them ’t is firme and Catholike y which that 
 Councell Decrees. Now that Coun- . .. ,/ 
 
 cell decrees, I hat OiuC) s collated byti.e geepis collates finepopulivei pote- 
 nt fop are not Void) though they le gjVen fiat is facuUris confenfu ant me** 
 
 •w , t r . ii- f 4.1 fD Eone irritos effe , Anathema pit* 
 
 Without the fonjent or caning oj the People , Tril Se f ^ Can ^ - 
 
 er of any fecular Power . And yet they can 
 
 produce noAuthour that ever acknowledged this 
 
 Definition of the Councell Fundamentall in the 
 
 Faith. Tis true, 1 do not grant, that the Decrees of 
 
 this Councell are made by full Authority of the 
 
 Church : but they do both grant and maintaine it* 
 
 And therefore ’tis Argument um ad hominem , a good 
 Argument againft them ; that a thing fo defined may 
 
 •' ‘ " “ F? 
 

 N u m. 15. 
 
 * Cont. Bar. c. 51. <±Abdicata 
 enim qua ft bet parte Catholic i 
 Dogmatic* alia cjuooj-, atque item 
 
 aha , c rc. Quid aliud ad extre- 
 mum fequetur , nifi ut tot tun pa- 
 rk er repudietur ? 
 
 §. 3 3 . N. n. 
 
 §,tO. 
 
 b z firme, for fo this is • and yet not Fundamental^ fot 
 fo this is not. 
 
 But A.C. telsus further, That if one may deny, or 
 doubtfully dispute againft any one Determination of the 
 fhurchythen he may againfl another ? and another , and Jo 
 againfiall • fince all are made firme to us by one and the 
 fame ViVtne Revelation , fufficiently applied by one and 
 the fame full Authority of the Church - Tvh'tch being 
 weakened in any one , cannot be firme in any other . Firft 
 A.C. might have acknowledged that he borrowed 
 the former part of this out of a Vin.Ltr. 
 And as that Learned Father ulcs it , I 
 lubfcribe to it , but not as A.C . applies 
 it. For Vincentius Fpzzks there de Cathc - 
 lico Dogmate , of Catholike Maximes : 
 and A . C. will force it to every Deter- 
 mination of the Church. Now Catholike Maximes , 
 which are properly Fundament all ycz certain zTnme 
 Truths depofited with the Church, and not fo much 
 determined by the Qhurch, as publifhed and manife- 
 fted, and fo made firme by her to us. 
 For fo b Vincentius exprefly. Where, all 
 that the Church doth, is but, ut hoc idem 
 quod anted ? that the lame thing may be 
 believed, which was before Believed, 
 but with more light, and cleercnefFc, 
 and ( in that fenfe) with more firme- 
 neflc,than before. Now in this fenfe, give way to a 
 f)ijput4tor errans , every cavilling Difputer to deny, 
 or quarrell at the Maximes of Chriftian Religion,^ 
 any one , or any part of any one of them . and 
 why may he not then take liberty to do the like of 
 any other, till he have flhaken all ? But this hin- 
 ders not the Church her felfe , nor any appointed by 
 
 the Church to examine her ovyne & rees , and to 
 
 
 
 b Ecclefi* 'Depojitorum apud fe 
 Dogmatum Cuftos, &c. c Deni% 
 quid unquam Conciliorum E)s- 
 cretis emfa eft, niji,ut quod ante a 
 ftmpliciter credebatnr , hoc idem 
 poftea dUigentius crederetur , &c. 
 Vin. Lir. eont* Baref. r.32. 
 
V 
 
 §. io. v 3P 
 
 fee that fhe keepe Dogmata depofita , the Principles 
 
 of Faith unblemifhed, and uncorrupted. For if fhe 
 
 do not fo, but that c Novitia veteribus, ■ T . 
 
 new Doctrines bee added to the old- orHm & trr.ram L- 
 
 the Church, which is Sacrarium , Verita* P anar : eraiUme aft* & in- 
 
 - i i Cj. C \t 1 corrupt £ Samarium Veritatis. 
 
 tis , the ( J\epoJitory ot Verity, may be 
 
 changed in lupanar errormi , I am loth to Englifh it. 
 
 By the Qhurch then this may , nay it ought to be 
 done, ho we ver, every itratigHiig Difputer may neither 
 deny, nor doubtfully dilpute, much lefle ohftinately 
 cppole the Determinations oi the Church , no no: 
 where they are not Dogmata Depofita, theie depoiited 
 Principles. But lfhe willbe fo bold to deny or dilpute 
 the Deter minations of the Church * yet that may be 
 done without fhaking the Foundation , where the De- 
 terminations themlelves belong but to the Fabrkke, 
 and not to the Foundation. For a whole Frame of 
 Building may be flhaken , and yet the Foundation 
 where it is well lay d, remaine firme. And therefore 
 after all y A.C. dares not (ay ,the Foundation is Jhakeu, j c p ^ 
 lutonely in a fort . And then tis as true, chat in a fort 
 k is not ftiaken. 
 
 2. For the fecond part of his Argument, J. C N u M l6 
 murt pardon me, if I diflent from him. For full, all 
 Determinations of the Church are not made firme to us by 
 one and the Jame Divinely elation. For fome Deter- 
 minations of the Church are made firme to us, per 
 * chirographum Scripture, by the Hand-writing of 3 V in. Lir. 
 the Scripture, and that's Authenticall indeed. Jri£r ' i ^ 2, 
 Some other Decifions, yea and of the Church 
 too are made, or may be (if f> Sta~ . ■ = /: - , 
 
 j7 / . r 7 • i x • i b R^ect. cont . 4. q. 1. Art. 
 
 pleton intorme US right ) without tkkmfi null* Scripturarnm , 
 
 an evident , nay without fo much as **#»'*» m probMiTejiimo- 
 a probable Testimony of Holy-Writ. ' {Mi 
 
 ■tv 
 
 But 
 
§. io. 
 
 c Non fotefi Aliquid cert tint ejfe 
 certitndine fidei, nifi^ut immedi- 
 ate contirrcatur in XJerbo Dei, atU 
 ex ZJerbo ‘Dei per ev-identem con - 
 feejnentiam deducatur . Bellar. 
 l-dejuftijica : c. 8 . §. 2 . 
 
 But c Bellarmine fals quite off in this ^ 
 and confeffes in exprefle termes, That 
 nothing can he cert dine by Certainty of 
 Faith, unlejfe it he contained immediately in 
 the Word of God : Or he deduced out of 
 the Word of God by evident Conference . And if nothing 
 can be focertaine, then certainly no Determination 
 
 of the Church it felfe, if that Determination be not 
 grounded upon one of thele: either exprelfe Word 
 of God , or evident Conlequence out of it. So 
 here’s little Agreement in this great Point betweene 
 Stapleton and Bellarmine . Nor can this befhifted off, 
 as if Stapleton Ipake of the Word of God Written , , and 
 BeDarmine of the Word of God unwritten ( as he cals 
 Tradition . ) For Bellarmine treats there of the know- 
 ledge which a man hath of the Certainty of his 
 owne Salvation. And I hope A. C. will not tell us. 
 There’s any Tradition extant unwritten , by which 
 particular men may have affurance of their feverall 
 Salvations. Therefore Bdlarmines whole Dilputa- 
 tion there is quite befide the matter : Or els he mud 
 lpeake of the Written Word , and ib lie crofle to Sta- 
 pleton, as is mention'd. But to returne. Jf jf. 
 will, he may ,but I cannot believe. That a Definition 
 of the Church, which is n -ade by the expreffe Word 
 of God, and another which is made without lb 
 much, as a probable Tefltmony of it, or a cleareDeduclion 
 from it, are made firmc to us, by one and the lame 
 Divine Revelation. Nay I mud lay in this cafe, that 
 the one Determination is firme by Divine Revelati- 
 on, but the other hath no Divine Revelation at all, 
 but the Churches Authority onely. 
 
 2. Secondly, I cannot believe neither , That all 
 Determinations of the Qmrch are fufficiently applied by 
 one and the fame full Authority of the Church . For the 
 
 Authority 
 
 % 
 
§. IO. 
 
 Authority of the Churchy though it be of the fame 
 fulnelfe in regard of it lelf,and of the Power,which 
 it commits to Generali (founcels lawfully called : yet 
 it is not alwayes of the lame fulnelfe of know- 
 ledge, and Efficiency: nor of the lamefulneiie of 
 Confidence, and integrity to apply Dogmata Fidei, 
 that which is Dogmaticall in the Faith, tor inftance, 
 
 1 thinke you dare not deny but the Councell of Trent 
 was lawfully called , and yet I am of opinion , that 
 few, even of your felves, believe that the Councell of 
 Trent hath the lame fulnelfe with the Councell of 
 Nice 5 in all the fore-named kinds, or degrees offub 
 nclfe. Thirdly, fuppole That all Determinations of * 
 the Church are made firme to us by one and the fame 
 Divine T^eV elation 7 an J Jufficiently applied by one and 
 the fame full Authority • yet it will not follow , that 
 they are all alike Fundamental in the Faith . For I 
 hope C . himlelfe will not lay, that the Definitions 
 
 of the Church are in better condition, than the Tropo* 
 fitlons of Catwnicall Scripture - Now all TropofitF 
 ons of Canonicall Scripture are alike firme 7 becaufe 
 they all alike proceed from Divine %eVe ! ation : but 
 they are not all alike Fundamentall in the Faith. For 
 this Tropoftion. of Chip to S. Veter 7 and 5. jfndrew, 
 Follow me y and Iwill make you fifhers of men % is as firm 
 a Truth, as that which he delivered to his Difiriples, 
 7W he mufl die , and rift -again* the third day b . For both 
 proceed from the lame Divine %evelation , out of the 
 mouth of our Saviour , and both are Efficiently ap« 
 plied by one and the lame full Authority of the 
 Church ;which receives the whole Gofpell of S Mat* 
 theW to be Canonical a d infaliib'e Scripture And yet 
 both thefc ^Proportions of Chart are not alike Funda - 
 menta l in the Faith. For f dare lay, No man (hall be 
 laved (in the ordinary way of falvation jthac believes 
 
 G not 
 
 S, Mattb^ip 
 

 
 
 
 4*2r ' ^ IL 
 
 not the Death and the RefurreBion of Qhrift. And I 
 believe A. Q- ^ arcs not fey* that No man (hall be fa - 
 ved, into whofe Capacity it never came, that Cbrift 
 made S. Peter and ^Andrew Hjhers of men. And yet 
 fhould he fay it , nay fliould he fhew it fob amiulo 
 Pifcatoru , no man will believe it , t iat hath not 
 made fhip wrack of his Common Notion Now if it 
 be thus betweene Propofition and P pofition iflu- 
 ingout of Chrift's own Mouth* I hop.e it may well 
 be fo alfo betweene even Iufl and True Determina- 
 tions of the Church, that fuppofing them alike true 
 and firme $ yet they fhali not be alike Fundamental 1 to 
 all mensbeliefc. 
 
 p. Secondly, I required to know 5 what Points the 
 CBi/hop would account Fundamental I. He faid, 
 all the Points of the Creed “Were fuch . 
 
 B* Againft this I hope you except not. For 
 
 “ Tertull. Afel. contra Gentes,c. fince th c* Fathers make the Creed the 
 47 ^ vcUnd. vir? . c. i. s. Au- Rule of Faith • b fince the agreeing fenfe 
 
 RuffimT sjrni. JfT/i)prul'. of Scripture with thofc Articles are the 
 f • 3^7, # two Regular ‘Precepts ,by which a Divine 
 
 Aib.Mag.## \ % Scnt. < D.u. a.j. j s g 0Vcrnec | a bout the Faith; fince your 
 
 owne Qouncell of c Trent decrees, That it is that Prin- 
 denuSe'faf' ciple °f Faith, in which all that profefle Chrift, doe 
 neceflarily agree^ iff Fundamentum firmum iff unicu?n y 
 not the firme alone, but the onely Foundation • fince it 
 MdjZTi. & is Excommunication a ipfojure, for any man to con- 
 s' in liter am. tradid the u Articles contained in that Creed-, fince the 
 
 « Thom 2 whole Body of the Faith is lo contained in the Creed, 
 
 3. 1. An. 7 .c. as that the c fubUance of it was believ’d even before 
 
 f i the commi'ng of C^ny?,though not lb exprefly as fince 
 
 Verb. AX( Bd\cn * n the number of the Articles , fince { Bedarmine con- 
 Scrjpt. c . 1 1. §. fefles , That all things fimply neceflary for all mens 
 Ppr :ft * falvationarein the Creed, andth c Decalogue ^ what 
 
 reafon 
 
 , §. 11.' 
 
 Num, I, 
 
 / 
 
 I 
 
 / 
 
§. II. 
 
 «. ,* ' ' 4 • f 
 
 ; * ' ' ’ * i • \ * t • 
 
 reafon can you have to except ? And yet for all this, 
 everything Fundamental 7 is not of a like nearenclfe 
 to the Foundation , nor of equall Brimenefte in the 
 Faith. And my granting the Creed to be Fund amen - 
 talk doth not deny, but that there are § quxdam prima 
 Qredibilia> certaine prime Principles ot Faith, in the 
 boiomc whereof all other Articles lay wrapped and 
 folded up : One of which fince Cbrift , is that of 
 S. h Iohn ; Every fpirit that confefteth leftts Chrift come in 
 theflejhftof Cjod. And one, both before the, comming 
 of Chrift, and fince, is that of S. Paul: 1 He that comes 
 to God , muft believe that God is, and that he is are- 
 warder of them that feeke him. 
 
 Here <_A. C. tels you. That either I muft meane that 
 thoj efoints are onely Fundamentally which are exprejjed 
 in the Creed s or thoj e alf o which are infolded. If J fay\ 
 thofe onely which are exprefted y then (faith he) to believe 
 the Scriptures is not Fundamental 1 , becaifte dis not ex - 
 prejfed. If l jay , thofe which are infolded in the Articles , 
 then fome unwritten Church Traditions may be accounted 
 Fundamentall. The truth is, I faid, and fay Hill, that 
 all the Points of th zApoftles Creed y as they are there 
 exprefled, are Fundamentall. And therein 1 fay no 
 more 3 than fome of your beft Learned have faid be- 
 fore me. But I never either laid, or meant. That they 
 onely are Fundamentally That they arc 3 Fundamentum 
 unicum y thc only Foundation, is the Councell of Trent's ; 
 tis not mine. Mine is, That the Belief e of Scripture to 
 be the Word of God \and infallible , is an equator rather 
 a preceding Prime Principle of Faith, with, or to the 
 vvhole Body of the Creed. And this agrees (as before 
 I told the Jefuite) with one of your owrte great Ma- 
 kers, Albertw SViagms , who is not farre from 
 that Propofition interminis. So here the very Foun- 
 dation of A. C s . Dilemma fals off. For I fay not , 
 
 G 2 That 
 
 
 sTllO.2. 2rf.gr. I, 
 7. C. 
 
 h i.S.Iohn4.2« 
 
 5 Heb. 11. 6 . 
 
 Num. 2 , 
 A. C,p* A A* 
 
 
 3 Cone . Trident 0 
 
 Se(fs. 
 
 .«i § 
 
 b In I , Sent. 7) 
 
 1 1 . A. 7. Rem- 
 
 . o 
 
 la rides tjj cok- 
 cors Scripturn - 
 rum fenfut cum 
 ArticuUs Fidei: 
 Alfa Hits due- 
 bus regularibus 
 Precept is reot- 
 
 tur Theologutm 
 
 «* s 
 
§. 1 2 . 
 
 That onely the Points of the Creed are Fundamentally 
 whether exprefjed , or not exprejjed . That all of them 
 ar e, that I Jay . And yet though the foundation of his 
 Dilemma be fallen away, I will take theboldnefle to 
 tcllT. C. Thatiflhadfaid, That thofe Articles onely 
 which are exprefled in the Creed , are Fundamentally ic 
 would have beene hard to have excluded the Scrip- 
 ture , upon which the Creed it felfe it evefy Point is 
 grounded. For nothing is fuppoled to fhut out its 
 owne Foundation . And if I fhould how fay, that 
 lome Articles are Fundament all which are infolded in 
 the Credit would not follow, that therefore fome 
 unwrittenTraditions wereFundamentall. SomeThz- 
 ditions I deny not true and jirmc , and of great, both 
 Authority , and VJe ip the Church, as being JpoJlolF 
 call , but yet not Fundamentall in the Faith . And it 
 would be a mighty large fold, which fhould lap up 
 Traditions within the Creed . As for that Tradition , 
 That the Bookes of holy Scriptures are Divine, and In- 
 fallible in every part, I will handle that when [ come 
 to the proper place * for it. 
 
 F» I asked how then it happened (as M. Rogers 
 faith)that the Englijh Church u not yet refolded , 
 what is the right Jenfe of the Article of L hrifts 
 Dejcending into Hell . 
 
 4 
 
 B- The Englijh Church never made doubt (that 
 I know ) what was the fenle of that Article . The 
 words are fo plaine, they beare their meaning 
 before them. Sheewas content to put that 3 Jr - 
 tide among thofe, to which fhe requires Subfcrip* 
 tiony not as doubting of the fenfe, but to prevent 
 the Cavils of fome, who had beene too bufie in Cm - 
 dfying that Article , and in making it all one with 
 
5-u. 
 
 V 
 
 43 
 
 M. 2 
 
 a ScoruszVz i. 2 >. II. q* i. 
 
 b Stapleton Relett. Con. £« 
 Art . i. 
 
 c Bellarm, 4. ^ Cbrifto. c. 6 . & 
 1 2. ScriptH/a pa/sim hoc docent • 
 
 ^ Them. 2. l. A, y. ad 1* 
 
 c S.Aug,Ep.99. 
 
 N U M . 2. 
 
 " p- 
 
 the Article of the Croft, or but an Expofition of it. 
 
 And furely for my part, I thinke the Church Nu 
 of England is better refolved of the right fenfe of this 
 l Article , then the Church of Rome , especially if fhee 
 muft be cryed by her Writers 3 as you try the Qhurch 
 of England by M .Rogers. For 3 you cannot agret^ 
 whether this Article be ameer cTradition, or whe- 
 ther it hath any Place of Scr ipture to warrant it, 
 
 3 Scotus , and b Stapleton allow it no foo- 
 ting in Scripture , but c ® ellarmine is re- 
 folute 3 that this Article is every where 
 in Scripture, and d Thomas grants as 
 much for the whole Creed. TheC hutch 
 of England never doubted it,and S. c Au- 
 gufline proovesit. 
 
 And yet againe, you are different for the fenfe. 
 
 For you ag ec not, Whether the Soule of C hrift, in 
 
 triduo mortis , in the time of his Death, didgodowne 
 
 into Hell really 3 and was prefent there j or yertually 
 
 and by eftedfs only. For s Thomas holds the firlf, s Tho.^.3.7.522 
 
 and h Durand the later. Then you agree not, Whe- 
 
 ther the Soule of Chnft did defeend ready and in h Drndn i.d.u m 
 
 efjmce into the lowefl pit of Hell 3 and Place of the 
 
 Damned, as* Pellarmtne once held probable, and chrifto.c.i 6 , 
 
 prooved it ; or really only into that place,, or Region 
 
 of Hell, which you call Limburn Patrurn, and then, but 
 
 *vertually from thence into the Loiter Hell: to which 
 
 k 'Bellarmine reduces himfelfe, and gives his reafon, k Belhr. Recog. 
 
 becaufeit is th c l common Opinion of the Schoole.Now, 
 
 the Church of England takes the words 9 as they at e enim. Tho. p. 3, 
 
 in the Creed 3 and believes them without farther Dif- ^ ,2, 
 
 pute, and in that fenfe which th c ancient Primitive 
 
 Fathers of the Church agreed in. And yet if any 
 
 in the Church of England (hould not be throughly 
 
 refolved in the fenfe of this Article, Is it not as law- 
 
 G 3 full 
 

 
 46 
 
 m esi pertindciter ajfer endum 3 quin 
 Animal ChrifH per ulium modum nobis 
 ignotum potuerit defender e ad Jnfer- 
 num : Nfecnos negdmus dlium modum 
 ejfe for fit an veriorem • fed fatemur nos 
 ilium ignorare. Durand, in 3, fent, Difi . 
 
 §• 
 
 full for them to fay (7 conceive thus , 
 or thus of it j yet if any other 
 way of bis Defeent be found truer then 
 this , I deny it not , but as yet 1 knoiv no 
 other) as it was for m Durand to fay 
 it, and yet not impeach the Fourth 
 dation of the Faith. 
 
 p. The Bijliop [aid, That M. Rogers Iras but a 
 private man. But ( faid 1 ) if M. Rogers 
 ( 1 Writing as he did by publike Authority ) be 
 accounted only a private man, <&c. 
 
 §• I 3- 
 Nu m. i. 
 
 B< I faid truths when I faid M. Rogers was a pri- 
 vate man. Audi take it , you will not allow every 
 fpeechof every man, though allowed by Authority 
 to have his Bookes Printed ; to be the Dodrineof 
 
 the Church of Borne. * This hath 
 becne oft complained of on both 
 fldes : The impofing particular mens 
 ajjertions upon tl)t Church : yet I fee 
 you mcane not to leave it. And 
 furely as Conti over fies are now 
 handled (by fome of your party ) 
 at this day, I may not fay, it is the 
 fenfe of the Article in hand, but 1 
 bdVe long thought it a kinde oj defeent 
 into Hell 9 to be conVerfdnt in them , 
 I would the Authors would take heed in time, and 
 not feeke to blinde the People , or caft a miff before 
 evident Truth , leaf!: it caufe a finall defeent to that 
 place of Torment, But fince you will hold this 
 courfe, Stapleton was ofgreater note with you, then 
 M. Bfigers his expo fit imj^r 'Siotes upon the Articles of the 
 Church of England is with us. And as he,fo his ReleSlion . 
 
 And 
 
 * And this was an Ancient fault too,foi 
 S. Auguftine checks at it in his time. 
 Noli colligere calumnias ex Epifcoporum 
 fcnptis y five Hillarii , five Cypriani & 
 Agrippini. Erimo y quia hoc genus liter ct- 
 rum ab Authoritate Canonis difiinguen - 
 dum efi. Non enim fie leguntur tanquam 
 it a ex its teflimonium proferatur, ut con- 
 tra [entire non liceat # ficubi forte Alter 
 fentirent, qudm veritas pofiuUt.S. Atlg. 
 Ep.afi &c. And yet thefe were farre 
 greater men in their generations, then 
 M .%j>gersvris. 
 
 
J 
 
 §• I'5- 
 
 And is it the Dodrine of the Church of Rome 
 which S^too^afErmes, fl he Scripture is Jilent^ that 
 Chrift defended into Hell , and that there is a Catbohh } 
 and an Apojlohke ( burch ? If it be, then what will be^ 
 come of the Ropes Supremacy over the whole 
 Church ? Shall he have his Power over the Catho- 
 like Church given him exprefly in Scripture, in the 
 a feyes^to enter , and in b Rafcejo jeede when be is in 3 and 
 when he had fed, to c Confmne ; and in all thefe not to 
 err e and faileinhis Miniftration : And is the Catho- 
 like Church, in and over which he is to do all thefe 
 great things, quite left out of the Scripture} Belike 
 the Holy Ghoft was carefull to give him his power ; 
 Yes in any cafe ; but left the afsigning of his great 
 Cure, thcCatholike Church , to Tradition . And it were 
 well for him, if he could fo prefenbe for what he 
 now Claymes. 
 
 Butwhatif after all this, M. (Rogers there fay es 
 no fuch thing ? As in truth, he doth not. His words 
 are : &A U Chrifetans acknowledge y He defended ybut in the 
 interpretation of the Article , there is not that confent , that 
 were to be wijbed. What is this to the Church of England , 
 more then others ? And againe e Till ire knolr the na - 
 tine and undoubted f mfe of this Article , is M. Rogers 
 (TTe) the Church of England * or rather his, and fome 
 others Iudgement, in the Church of England 
 
 Now here AX. will have fomewhat againe to 
 fay, though God knowes/tis to little purpofe. ’Tis, 
 that the Iejuite urged M. Rogers Hooke y becanfe it iras 
 fe out by Rublike Authority : And becanfe the Hooke 
 beares the Title of the Catbolike HoElrine of the Church of 
 England. A. C. may undoubtedly urge M. Rogers j if 
 he pi cafe; But he ought not to fay, that his Opinion 
 is the Dodrine of the Church of England for neither 
 of rheReafons by himexprefled. Fir i\notbecaufehis 
 ,'.-T ‘ "™- ' " •’ Rooks 
 
 47 
 
 f StAp].CofJt. 5. 
 
 q .J. tA. I. 
 
 * S. Mat.16. ip. 
 b S. Toh.21. 1 
 c S. Luk.22.35. 
 
 Num. 2, 
 
 Al 
 
 • y' 
 
 <3 Rogers in Ant 
 Ecde . Anal, 
 Art.%, 
 
 p Ihicf. 
 
 N U M. y, , 
 
 a - c >?A 7 ‘. 
 
 \ 
 
4.8 . §*V° 
 
 !Booke was publikely allowed. For many Bookes among 
 them, as well as among us , have 1 ~ ~ Printed by 
 
 , publike Authority, as containing r gin them 
 contrary to Faith and good manners , at contain- 
 
 ing many things in them of Opinio ? nly, or private 
 Judgement, which yetis farre fro n he avowed Po- 
 fitiveDodrine of the Church , tl Church having 
 as yet determined neither way by open Declaration 
 upon the words, or things controverted. And this 
 is more frequent among their Schoolemen , then 
 among any of our ControVerfers y as is well knownc. 
 Nor, fecondly, becaufehis Bo Aebeares the Title of the 
 Catbolike Doclrine of the Qmrch of England . For jfup- 
 pofe the worft, andfay,M. Rogers thought a little 
 too well of his owne paines, ar gave his Bookc 
 too high a Title, is his private Ir gement therefore 
 to be accounted the Catholike Dodrine of the 
 Church of England ? Surely no ; No more then I Chould 
 * Angelic* T > . fey, every thing faid by * Thomas , or t BonaVenture , is 
 ^Tbo Surma, j n ^n ca n or Seraphic all DoElrine 3 becaufe one of thefe 
 
 T C debrmfsirm a. * £ , . n . . 
 
 ^AtrisBom. is itiled in the fhurch of %ome, Seraphic all, and the 
 Bonavcnturt other, Angelicall DoElor. And yet their workes are 
 phki™ Printed by Publike Authority 3 and that Title given 
 BentODifpHtatA, them. 
 
 Tea but our private Authors ( faith A Q ) are not aU 
 ^ ov>e d [f or ought 1 know ) in juch a like f v t* to exprejje 
 our Qatbolike DoElrine in any matter bject to (Jueflion. 
 Here are two Limitations 3 which will goe farre to 
 bring A. C. off, whatfoever I (hall fay againft him.* 
 For firflg let me inftance in any private mail, that 
 takes as much upon him as M. R ?ers doth 3 he will 
 fay, he knew it not, his Ajjertio, being no other, 
 
 then for ought be knoTbes. Seco , If he be unwil- 
 ling to acknowledge fo much 3 o he will anfwer, 
 [tis not juft in f \ck a like fort as M \,ggcrs doth it, that 
 
 • ^ " " ' is 
 
 ( 
 
 • - L ' 
 
 
/ 
 
 . I 
 
 • ' ^ fl» 
 
 is, perhaps^ it is not the very Title of his Booke. But 
 
 4 9 
 
 well then: Is there never a Private man allowed in the 
 Church of fme to expreffe your Cat holt ke Doclrhie in any 
 matter J uhjeH to quejlion ? W hat ? not in any matter ? 
 Were not Vega, and Soto two private men ? Is it not a 
 muter fub jed: to Quejlion , to great Quejlion in thefc 
 Dayes, Whether a man may be certaine of his Sal- 
 vation, c rtitudine fidci , by the certainty of Faith? 
 Doth not * Sellar mine make it a Con- 
 
 trover fie? And is it not apart of your 
 
 4- Cnunrp.il of Trent} And vrt rh fwn in?/niafua } & judicia fpontefub-* 
 
 Opinions • and both of them challeng- 
 
 ed the Decree of the Councell ; and fo confequent- 
 ly your Catholike faith to beaseachof them conclu- 
 ded s and both of them wrote Bookes to mainraine 
 their Qpinions,and both of their Bookes were pub- 
 Iifned by Authority. And therefore 1 think kis allow - 
 
 ed tn the Church of ( fome to private men to exprejfeyour Ca- 
 
 thclike Doclrine ? and in a matter J uhjefl to Quejlion. And 
 therefore a!fo,if another man in the C hurch of Eng- 
 land . fhould be of a contrary Opinion to M. Gagers , 
 and declare it under the 7 itle of the Catholike Vofirine 
 of the Church of England , this were no more then Soto, 
 and Vega did in the Church of ffome. And I, for my 
 part , cannot but wonder A. C. fhould not know it. A. c.p, 47. 
 For he fayes,that for ought he knoTbes, Private men are 
 not allowed fo to expreffe their Catholike Doctrine. 
 
 And in the fame Queftion both Catharinus , and SeU t ^ ^ 
 larmine b take on them, to expreffe your Catholike Faith , * * 
 
 the one differing from the other, aimoftas much 
 as SotOj and Vega , and perhaps in fome refpeft 
 
 more. 
 
 H 
 
 F: Snt 
 
/ 5© x I 
 
 % 
 
 p. if M. Rogers be only a private mm ; in 
 what "Book may we finde the Troteftants pub- 
 like Do Brine ? The Bijhcp anf wared , That 
 to the Booke of Articles they Were aUfworm. 
 
 §. 14, 
 
 A. C.p, 47* 
 
 B* What? Was I fo ignorant to fay y The Art icles 
 N u m. i. of the Church of England ffere the Tublike Doctrine of all 
 
 the Troteflants'iOrjhat all TroteUants were flvorne to the 
 Articles of England ,as this fpeech fecms to imply?Surc 
 I was not. Was not the immediate fpeech before, 
 of the Church of England ? And how comes the Sub- 
 jed of the Speech to be varied in the next lines ? Nor 
 yet fpeake I this , as if other Troteftants did not agree 
 with the Church of England in thechiefeftDodlnnes, 
 and in the maine Exceptions, which they joyntly 
 take againif the Tyrmane Church y as appeares by their 
 feverall Confefions . But if A . C. will fay ( as he doth ) 
 that becauje there was fpeech before of the Church of 
 England , the lejuite under ftood mee in a limited fenfe > 
 and meant only the T rote ft ants of the Englifh Church; 
 f And thcrforc Beeitfo ,* thers no great harme done t but this , 
 ^ kc* T C I e f u * te offers to enclofe me too much. 
 
 Noiic about it , for I did not fay , that the Booke of Articles only 
 ashcdoth.p.48 was the Continent of the Church of Englands pub- 
 like Dodrine.* She is not fo narrow, nor hath fhe pur- 
 pofeto exclude any thing, which fhe acknowledges 
 hers,nor doth fhe wittingly permit any Crofling of 
 her publike Declarationsjyet fhe is not fuch a fhreVo 
 to her Children, as to deny her Blefing , or De- 
 nounce an Anathema againft them, if fome peacea- 
 bly diffent in fome Particulars remoter from th ! e 
 Foundation , as your owne S chord e men differ. And 
 if the Church of Tome y fince fhe grew to her great- 
 nefle^ had not becne fo fierce in thisCourfe, and 
 too particular in Determining too many things, 
 
 and 
 
§• r 4* fi 
 
 - 
 
 and making them matters of Necejjary Seliefe , 
 which had gonefor many hundreds of years before^ 
 only for things of Pious Opinion. ChriJiendome ( l per - - 
 fwademyfelfe) had beenc in happier peace at this 
 Day, thenldoubr, we (hall ever live to fee it. 
 
 Well, but A C. will proove the Church of England N u m. t ; 
 a S hr eft , and Inch a Shrew . For in her S ooke * of Canons A - C- p> 48c 
 She Excommunicates every man , who f hall hold any thing an ' ** 
 contrary to any part of the faid Articles . So C. But 
 furely thefe are not the <very Words of the Canon , 
 nor perhaps the fenje. Not the Words ,* for they 
 are : WhofoeVer jbafl affirme that the Articles are in 
 any part JuperHitious 5 or erroneous t <&c. And perhaps- 
 not the I enfe , For it is one thing for a man to hold 
 an Opinion privately within himfclfe • and ano- 
 ther thing boldly and pubhkely to affirme it. And 
 againe, tis one thing to hold contrary to fome pare 
 of an Article . which perhaps may bee but in the 
 •manner of Expreffion j and another thing pofitively 
 to affirme, that the Articles in any part of them ate 
 fupe rjlitiouSy and erroneous . But this is not the Maine 
 of the Builneffe : For though the Church of England 
 Denounce Excommunication , as is a before exprefled • t Can ~ j 
 Yet She comes farre Ihort of the Church of Egmes fe- 
 verity, who fc Anathemas are not only for 59. Arti- 
 cles, but for very many more ? * above one *firtcil 1 l Tridm& 
 hundred in matter of Do<f!rine ; and that in ma- 
 ny Poynts as farre remote from the Foundation , 
 though to the farre greater Rack of mens Confer- 
 ences , they muft be all made Fundamentall , if that 
 C hurch have once Determined them : whereas the Church 
 of England never declared, That every one of her 
 Articles arc Fundamentall in the Faith. For Tis one thing 
 to fay:No one of them is fuperjlitious or erroneous: And 
 quire another to fay :-E very one of them is fundamental 
 
 H % and 
 
 
 
 
5 * 
 
 §. # 
 
 and that in every part of it, to all ?nens Beltefe. Befides, 
 the Church of England preferibes only to her owne Chil- 
 dren, and by thofe Articles provides but for her ownc 
 peaceable Confent in thole Doctrines of Truth. But 
 the Qhurch of ( ^ome fevercly impofes her Doctrine 
 upon the whole World under paine of Damnation. 
 
 p. And that the Scriptures only > not any unwritten 
 Tradition, was the Foundation of their Faith. 
 
 Hum. i . 
 
 ]3» The fhurch of England grounded her Tofitive 
 Articles upon Scripture, and her Negative doe refute 
 there, where, the thing affirmed by you, is not affirm- 
 ed by Scripture, nor dire&ly to be concluded out 
 of it. And here not the Church of England only, but all 
 Droteftants , agree moft truly, and molt ftrongly in 
 this, 1 hat the Scripture is fufficient to falvation , and con - 
 
 * S. Bafil. de verb. c~ fib fide, Manifefia defettio Fidei tameS m Xt ^ n gS ne- 
 ett, importare quicquam eorum qua fcripta non funt, Ccfjary tO If. The F athcTS ' 
 S. Hilar. L. 2. ad. Conft, Awr.F idem tant urn fecun- 1 
 
 ditm ea qu<t. fcripta funt dtfiderantem,& hoc qui repudiat ^ C pl^Oe,th S ckoole- 
 
 Antichrifius eH,& qui fitnuUt , Anathema eft. s. Aug. men not ft rant srs in it. 
 L. 2 ± In iicep* apert'c in Scrip. An< j havc ne \ we r€a . 
 
 turapojita Junt, tnvenmntur ilia omnia qua continent ft- 
 
 dcm/nor'efij ; vi mdi. And to this phcc'Fellarm. L.4. iOn theft to account it, 
 
 f v f° Vein ■firipto. c. ti fakh.ttat S. Jlugufime as j t j, J % e Fowdationof 
 ipeakes, de is Dogmacibus qua: neceflaria funt r 1 ? k 1 0 ' 
 
 omnibus (imp] iter, of thofe Points of faith, which our Edith. Alld c Ota- 
 
 are neceflfary f ply for all men. Sofarre then he grants pletOH him! elfe, though 
 the queflion. ;d that yon may know, it fell not from him r <r\ r ^ 
 
 l.lAc.u * ■ J , r * an angry Oppoute, 
 
 on t he fuddaine, he hadfaid as much before , in the begin * 
 ning of t he fame C hapter, and here he confirmes it againe . 
 b Scotus Proleg. in fern. q. 2. Scriptura fufficient er con- 
 tinet D otlrinam neceffariam Uiatori. Thom. 2. la. q, 1. 
 
 A.io.ad 1 , In c DoFirinb ( hrifii & ApoPiolcrumpventas 
 fidei efi fuffict enter explicate And he fpeakes there 
 
 of the wntren Word. ., 
 
 c Scripturam Funda men turn effe, & columnar n Fidei fa - mom,and in the matter , or 
 
 termer in peo centre, i. e. in centre Teftimomorum. &m t biw> to be btlimd. And 
 matena f redendorum.Relelf C on >W. I. Ar. 2, in fine. . c C , J r . - , 
 
 11 the Scripture be the 
 Foundation, to which we are to goe forwitneffe , if 
 
 there 
 
 confeffeSyThat the Scrip- 
 ture is in Jome fort the 
 Foundation of Faith 1 that 
 is, in the nature cfTefti - 
 
§• ij- v 5 it 
 
 there be Doubt about the Faith ; and in whicfi we 
 are to find the thing that is to be believed, cu necefiary 
 in the Faith • we never did , nor never will refufe 
 any Tradition that is ^niyerfalf and Apoflolike , for 
 the better Expo fit ion of the Scripture • nor any De- 
 finition of the (hurcb, in which fhe goes to the Scrip - 
 ture ? for what fhe teaches, and thrufts nothing as 
 Fundamentall in the Faith upon the world,but what 
 the Scripture fundamentally makes mater iam Credendo- 
 rum , the fubftance of that which is lo to be believed, 
 whether immediatly and exprefly in words,ormore 
 remotely ,tiil a cleare,and full Deduction draw it out. 
 
 Againfl the beginning of this Paragraph c A. (. 
 excepts. And firft he fayes • T is true , that the Church ^ L1 2 
 of England grounded her Pofitilpe Articles upon Scripture : A. £.p. 48, 
 That is ftis true , if themfefoes may be competent Judges 
 in their ou>ne (faufe. But this by the leave of A.L. is 
 true , without making our felves ludges in our 
 owne Caule. For that all the Tofittve Articles of the 
 firefent ( hurcb of England are grounded upon Scripture 
 we are content to be judged by the joynt and con- 
 ftant Beliefe of the Fathers , which lived within the 
 firft foureor five hundred yeares after (hr iff y when the 
 Church was at thebeft; and by the touncels held 
 within thole times j and to fubmitto them in all 
 thofe Points of Do&rine. Therefore we defire not 
 to be ludges in our owne Caufe. And if any whom 
 kA. C. cals a Novellifl ? can truly fay , and maintain e 
 this, he will quickly proove himfelfe no Pfovellifl. 
 
 And for the JSfegatiye ^Articles , they refute, where 
 the thing affirmed by you, is either not affirmed in 
 Scripture, or not directly to be concluded out of it : 
 
 Vpon this Negative ground Q. inferred againe^ 
 
 That ti e Baptifmeof infants is not exprefly ( atleafl not 
 evidently) affirmed in Scripture , nor direttly [at leafl not c.p. 
 
 H 1 demonfha- 
 
 v 
 
§.i?. 
 
 demount atiyely) concluded out of it. In which cafe he 
 profefesfe would gladly know, what can be anfwered to 
 defend this doftrine , to be a ''Point of Faith necefjary for 
 the fahation of Infants. And m Conclusion, profefes 
 he cannot eaflyguefe what Anfwer can be made , unlefie 
 we will acknowledge, Authority of Cbu. -Tradition ne- 
 cefjary in this CaJ e. 
 
 And truly fince A. C. is fo defirous of an An* 
 fwer, I will give it freely. And firft in the Generali. 
 I am no way fatisfied with A. C. his Addition (not 
 exprefy ,at leaf not evidently) what means he ? If he 
 Ipeake of the Letter of the Scripture, then, whatfoe- 
 ver is expr efly ,is evidently in the Scripture ^ andfo his 
 Addition is vaine. If hefpeakeofth t Meaning of the 
 Scripture, then his Addition is cunning. For many 
 things arc Exprefly in Scripture, which yet in their 
 Meaning are not evidently there. And what e re hee 
 meane, my words arc, That our Efegative Articles re- 
 fute that which is not affirmed in Scripture, without any 
 Addition of Exprefly > or Evidently. And he Should 
 have taken my words, as 1 ufed them. I like nor 
 change, nor Addition , nor am l bound to either of A . 
 C s . making. And I am as little fatisfied with his 
 next Addition (nor dire ftly, at leaf not de> onfratively 
 concluded out of it.) For are there not many things 
 in Good Logicke concluded fir eftly, which yet are not 
 concluded Demonstratively ? Surely there are. For to 
 be directly, or indirectly concluded fiowes from the 
 Moode or Forme of the Syllogifme : To be demonftra- 
 tively concluded fiowes from the Matter or Nature 
 of the Tropoftions. If the Propofitionsbe Prime and 
 neceflary Truths, the Syllogi/tne is demonf native and 
 fcientificall 5 becaufe the Propoftiom are inch. If the 
 ( Proportions be probable onely , though the Syllo- 
 gifme be nude in the deareft Moode , yet is the 
 
 Conclufon 
 
* habitus enirn Li- 
 cki it a fe bahet in. 
 or dine ad Tb colog- - 
 am, Jicui fe habet 
 Habitus intellettm 
 ad Saenlias hum.i~ 
 n as. M. Canus. L. 
 a. de Loc. c. 
 
 Num. 4, 
 A, C. p. 4p. 
 
 §. 15 . , 55 
 
 Conclufton no more. The Inference, or Confequence 
 indeed is cleave and neceifary, but the C onfequent is 
 but probable, or topically as the Propoiltions were. 
 
 Now my words were onely for a DireSl Conclufton , 
 and no more : though in this cafe I might give A. C. 
 his Caution. For Scripture here is the thing fpoken 
 of. And Scripture being a (principle , and every Text of 
 Scripture eonfefledly a Principle among all Chr Kh- 
 ans, whereof no man a defires any farther proofe : 
 
 I would faine know, why that which is plainely 
 and apparently, that is, by dired; Confequence, 
 proved out of Scripture, is not Demonftratively or 
 Scientifically proved ? If at leaft he think there can 
 be any Demonji ration in 'Divinity : and if there can 
 be none, why did he add Demonfir at ively 
 
 Next in Particular* 1 anfwer to the Inftance 
 
 which A . C makes, con- f S. Aug. exprefly of the Baptifme oF Infants. L. i. dePec- 
 . 1 T . cato. Mer. & 1 Remiff. c. 2 o. EtLz.czj. EtL.-i .dc lAnimcL 
 
 cerning the J2dptljfn„ op Ln~ <&. ^ l(A Ongine. c. 13. Nay they of the Romane Party 
 TUic rvn-iir Uf> mrt which urge the Baptifme of Infants, as a matter of Faith, 
 
 fants, 1 hat ic may oe con, and ,= t io bc » 01ldudcd out c( Scn tc whtn tb * 
 
 eluded diretllt (and let AC. are not in eager purfuit of this controverhe', but look upon 
 J ^ truth with a more indifferent eye a confefle as much (even 
 
 judge,whether not demon- the Learned' ft of them ) as we ask. Adveriendum autem 
 1 , o c S dvatOi cm dim dicit [Nifiquis renatus, &c.] neceffitatemirn- 
 
 itratively? ) out or Scrip ■“ ponere omnibus , ac \rcinde P arvulos dcbc:c renajei ex aqua & 
 
 /Anrrkf* Spirit" . Ianfen. Ham. in Euang.c.z o. So here's Baptifme 
 tuie-both that OUgt Neceffary for Infants, and that NeceiTuy impofed by our 
 
 tO be baptized * and that Saviour, and not by the Church onely. Hxrctici nullo alio 
 _ 1 _ * quam hoc Scripture tefUmonio probare poffmt , infantes ejje 
 
 Dabtifme is neccliary to bapli%andos. Maid, in S. I oh. 5.5. So Maldonat con- 
 \ - O 1 • A J C CL kftes t ^ at Hereticks (we know whom he mcanes) can 
 
 their SdlVdtlOJl* /Vnci nrit, prove the Baptifme of Infants by no Teftimony of Scrip- 
 
 . /7s • /" „ ’ ture but this : which fpeech implies. That by this Tefti-- 
 
 that Baptljme ts necejjttry to monyofScriptuieitis, and can be proved, and therefore 
 
 thp S/i/vnfinn erf ( in not by Church-Tradition only. And I would faine know, 
 
 tne oaivation OJ injams ( 111 why Iidc£ ^. c , 8.§. 5 .(hould bring three 
 
 the ordinary way of the Arguments out of Scripture to prove the Baptifme of In- 
 . i , 7 1 * J * fants [ Habcmis in Scripturis tax argumenia, &c7p if Bap- 
 
 Church Without, binding tifme cannot bc proved ac all out of Scripture, but only by 
 r> 1 1 r J w the Tradition of the Church. And yet.this is not Bcl/ar- 
 
 God to the ule and meanes ^««e’ SVYaya i one} but 9 »^ , £^i»Tho. p.i q 6%.Difput.z$ . 
 
 nfrhiFf Sarvdwipnt to which Secl - 1 • §- 2 * Ex Scriptu.fi poffunt varia Alrgumenta fumi ad 
 
 01 mat oact ament y zo wnicn c<mfirmfldm ?Ma ptip,u*. Et fminh,&c. And eng* 
 
 he hath bound US ) t is ex- Valentia,L. deBaptf Tarvulorum c. z. §. i. And the Pope 
 
 himicHe, innocent.^, i.3 Decretal Tit.+z. Cap.Mijorcs. And 
 preile in S. John ]. except a they all jump with S^Xmb.L. 10. Epift.%4. ad Dcmetriadem 
 11 r Viremcm: who exprefly affirmes it, P&dobaptifmum ifcfo-n- 
 
 man be borne decline OJ water , jlitutiouem Salvator is : And proves it out of S .Job. 5.5. 
 
 and 
 

 15. 
 
 * Infantes reos ejfe Origin alls 
 peccati, & ideo baptizandos ejfe, 
 Antiquum Fidci Regulam vocat . 
 S. Aug. Ser.%.dever. Apof.c.%. 
 Et nemo vobls fufttrret doclrinas 
 alien as, hoc Ecclefia femper ba- 
 
 cilli the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdoms of 
 Cod . So, no $ aptijme , no Entrance. Nor can In- 
 fants creepe in, any other ordinary way. And this 
 is the received Opinion of all the Ancient Church 
 of Qn’ijl a . And fecondly , That In- 
 fants ought to bee baptised , is fir ft 
 plaine by evident and Direct Con I se- 
 quence out of Scripture. For if there 
 
 be no Salvation for Infants in the ordi- 
 bnit, femper term * , hoc a majo - naf y wa y 0 f the Church , but by Dab- 
 
 rum fide reccptt , &c. S. Aug. ,- r J y i i • . _ . J r 
 
 Scr. io. de verb. Apofi. c. 2. cr tifme , and this appearc m Scripture, as 
 
 S. Ambrof. L. 1 o. Ep. 84. cir- J t d ot: h then Ollt of all Doilbt , the 
 
 de Adam & Eva. Hoc pradicat Conlequcnce IS molt eVldeilt OUt ot 
 Ecclefia Catholic a ubique dtf- that Scripture, That Infants are to be 
 
 baptised , that their Salvation may be 
 
 r Egt caufam eorum qui pro fe ccrta i ne . p or they which Cannot b help 
 loqm non pofjunt, &c. o.Aug. . r . A . . r . r 
 
 Scrm. 8. de verb, Apofi. c.8. themielves , mult not be left onely to 
 
 Extraordinary Helpes , of which wee 
 have no aflurance, and for which we have no 
 warrant at all in Scripture, while wee in the 
 , meane time negleft the ordinary way, and meanes 
 
 commanded by Chrift. Secondly , ti$ very neare 
 an Expreflion in Scripture it felfe. For when S. Fe- 
 Aft. 2.38,39* ter had ended that great Sermon of his, jIEt. 2. he 
 applies two comforts unto them, Verffb. Amend 
 your lives , and be baptised , and you J hall receive the 
 gift of the Holy Ghoft . And then, Verfe 39, hee in- 
 fer res , For the promt fe is made to you , and to your chil- 
 dren, The Promife • what Promile ? What ? Why 
 the Promile of San&ification by the Holy Ghoft. 
 By what meanes? Why ,by Baptiime. For ’tis ex- 
 prefly , $e baptised , and ye fh all receive. And as ex- 
 prefly, 77 ; n promife is made to you , and to your chil- 
 dren. And therefore A. f. may finde it, if he will. 
 That the Daptifme of Infants may be directly concluded 
 
§. If 
 
 V 
 
 * . * j 7 
 
 * Nullum excipit , IutUunty non 
 GcHtilem t non Adult umjion P uerum 
 C^c. Ferns *'» A&.2.3P. 
 b Etad Filios vcllros: quare debent 
 confentire } quum ad ulum rationis 
 perveniunt, ad imp Undo, promijfa in 
 Baptifmo t &c. Salm.Thi#. 1 4. up- 
 on the place. 
 
 of Scripture. For fome of his 
 ownc Party , a and b Salmeron , 
 
 could both find it there. And fo (if 
 it will doc him any pleafure ) he 
 hath my Anjwer , which he faith, he 
 would be glad to know. 
 
 TTis true, 3 Sellarmine preffes a maine Place out of N u m. 5. 
 S, Auzuftine , and he urges it hard. 
 
 c b j fl‘ * j *T) « C , 3 hclhv. L.d.de VerboLDei c.y.§.$. 
 
 S. Jugttjline s words are, The (u- k ^_ Aug> 
 
 Gen . ad Lit. c. 2 3 . Confue - 
 
 Jlome of OHr Mother the Church in Bap- tuds Matrii Lcelefu in Baptiz.au- 
 thin? Infants , is by no meanes to be * r™* Ijrr* 
 
 ' o J • J eft, nec omnino credcnda, nijt Apojto- 
 
 contemned , or thought Juperftuous • nor n C a ejfet Traditio. 
 
 yet at all to he believed , unlejje it were 
 an Apoftolicall Tradition . The Place is truly cited, 
 but teenies a great deale ftronger, than indeed it is. 
 
 For fir ft, ’tis not denyed , That this is an Apofiolicall 
 Tradition , and therefore to be believed. But ft- 
 condly, not therefore onely . Nor doth S. Augufline 
 lay fo, nor doth fBellarmine prelfo it that way. 
 
 The truth is, it would have bcene fomewhat 
 difficult to finde the Collection out of Scripture 
 onely for the fBaptifme of Infants , fince they do not 
 actually believe. And therefore S. Augufiine is at nec 
 credcnda niji , that this Cuftome of the Church had not 
 been to be belicved,had it not been an Apoftolicall Tra - 
 dition. But the Tradition being Apofiolicall , led on the 
 Church eafily to lee the neccffary Deduction out of 
 Scripture. And this is not the leaftufe of Tradition , 
 to lead the Church into the true meaning of thoft 
 things which are found in Scripture, though not ob- cr 
 
 .O 1 / , • • o 1 a- > „ , AmtquAm 
 
 vious to every eye there. And that this is o . Augujtme s fidei ReguUm 
 meaning, is manifeft by himfelf, whobeft knew it. con * m , 
 
 For when he had faid , c as he doth. That to baptise \fdefe*%of.L 
 children , is Anti qua fi del %egula^ the Ancient Rule of f Hoc Ecckfw 
 Faith, and the conftant Tenet of the Church, yet he 
 
 I 
 
 doubts 
 
 
. «. 
 
 5 8 
 
 doubts not to colled and deduce it out of Scripture 
 alfo. For when felagius urged, That Infants needed 
 not to be baptized, becauie they had no Original. Sin : 
 S. Augufline relies not upon the Tenet of the Church 
 „ .. . T r only, butargues from the Text thus. 
 
 a necefifanum habmt Injans T/ ~ T/i'/i-rr 
 
 Chriftum) fi non agrotat ? ^.Matth. tThatneed have Infants of L hr ft, if they 
 
 9 - 12 * benotfteke ? For the found need not the 
 
 dantadjefum? Sed tibi clamatje- J hy fit tan, S.Mdt.ty. And againe , IS 
 fns. Sine Parvulos venire ad me. no t this laid by Teldgius y Ut non UCCC - 
 s. 4 *. in the fore-cited places. ^ ^ ^ ? That Infants may noc 
 
 cometo their Saviour? : Sed lefus , biitlefiis 
 
 * S. Marc.10.14. cr i es out 'Suffer Little ones to come unto me, *S. 10 . 
 
 And all this is fully acknowledged 
 
 ” Nullm efi s " ifUr rr by b Ca Vine, Namely , That all men 
 
 feculum pro certo refer at. Calv. acknowledge the 'Baptifmeof Infants to 
 f iff c ' 1 6 r „ r defeend from Apoftolicall Tradition . 
 
 f Mifernmum afylrnn foret , Ji pro J J i j 
 
 ‘Defenfione pMaptifmi ad nudam T And yet that it doth not depend upon 
 Ecclejia Mtberitatem fmere cogtre- fa y an Juth'irity of the 
 
 wwv % Calv. Injl k c % 8. 1 * j j \v/L * L U P l 
 
 * Church . Which he lpeakes not in re- 
 gard of Tradition 5 but in relation to fuch proofe, as 
 is to be made by neceflary Conlequence out of Scrip- 
 ture over and above Tradition. 
 
 Nu m. 6. As for Tradition,* i have faid enough for that ; and 
 
 * §. as much as A. C. where ris truly Apoftolicall. And 
 
 A. c. p. 49, y et an y t hi n g will pleafe him, i will add this con- 
 
 cerning this particular. The Bapti- 
 zing of Infants. That the Church re- 
 
 hoc Ecclefia abApoflolu Traditionem CdVed this DV vL rddltlO?l f} 0m the ApO- 
 
 fuf : epit^t id parvuhs Bapttjmd dare, files. By Tradition And what then? 
 
 £t S. Ails. Ser. io. deverb. Apof.c. i. \ A t- ai i i 
 
 Hoc Eccl fia a Major* fide percepit. M *Y ,C n0t dnecilybe Concluded OUt 
 
 And it is to be obicived , rharnei- of Scripture, becauie it was delivered 
 
 to the Church by way of IWta, , 
 
 received it k Tradiriwe folk , or a I hope A C. will never lay fo. For 
 
 Majo rum fide folk : as if Tradit i0n certainly in DoTtrinall thin vs nothing 
 
 did exclude collcftion of it out of _ ... J , T 
 
 Script w-f. fo likely to be a I radition Apojtolicalf 
 
 as 
 
 
§. 1 6* 
 
 as that which hath a * root and a 
 Foundation in Scripture For Apoftits 
 cannot write, or deliver contrary, 
 but fubordinate , and fubfervient 
 things. 
 
 19 
 
 * Yea;, and Beil ay mine himfelf avers, 
 Qmnes Tradiliones &c. cont inert in 
 Script nr is m uniVerfali.Z.^Y** verb. 
 r Deinm fcrtpto.c.io §, Sic etiam. 
 •And S. Bafij. Serm. de fide approves 
 only thole Apr aphdtfUte non fnnt alie- 
 ns d pid fecundit Serif-turn Sente nun. 
 
 p. / asked holt? be hieiv Scripture to be Scripture , 
 and in particular , Genefis , Exodus, Isrc. 
 
 ^Ibe/e are believed to be Scripture jet not proved 
 out of any (place of Scripture. The Pijbop faid, 
 
 That the Books of Scripture are Princip e s to be 
 Juppofed , and needed not to be proved. 
 
 , , % * ' ' i ■ - 
 
 B- I did never love too curious a fearch into 1( p, 
 that which might put a man into a wheele, and cir- N u m . i, 
 clehimfo long betweene proving Scripture by Tra- 
 dition, and Tradition by Scripture , till the Divell hnde a 
 meanes to difpute him into Infidelity, and make him 
 
 believe neither, I hope this is no b Qui cortimtur fidem Tefiruere fab 
 
 part of your meaning- Yet I doubt JP ec ' ie S^pom diffictits am forte 
 
 L • b r\ (1 • n« j t inditfolubtlis&c-.-Ong.yl. 35. m 
 
 this b Queftion, Hon? doe you know s.mnh; 
 
 Scripture to be Scripture * hath done c To know that Scriptures areDi. 
 
 more harme , than you W ill be evei p oundation lo neceflary> as it it bee 
 able to helpe by Tradition. But I doubtfully queftion* d jail the Faith 
 
 m u ft follow that way which you 
 
 draw me. And becaufe it is ib much hop extare Libras Aliquot vere 
 
 infilled upon by you,' and is in it vims : B=l|?rm.i.4. f -™b. zw 
 
 rir r /ni Jk r nonfcnpto.c. 4. Quarto needle, 
 
 felt a matter of inch Conlequence, Etetiam nhros qui [urn in mambm 
 
 I will lift it a little farther. */*»//«. Ihtd. §. Sexto oportet. 
 
 Many men labouring to fettle this great Principle N u m. 2 . 
 in Divinity, have ufed diverie meanes to prove it. 
 
 All have not gone the lame way , nor all the right 
 way . Y ©u cannot be right , that refblve Faith of the 
 Scriptures , being the Word of God, into onely Traditi- 
 on. For onely , and mother proofe arc equal!. To' 
 
 I % prove 
 

 
 §.. \6 
 
 prove the Scripture therefore ( fo called by way of 
 Excellence) to be the Word of God, there are feve- 
 rall Offers at diyerfeproofes. For ionie flie 
 
 to the Teflimony and witnefle of the Church , and 
 her Tradition, which conftantly believes , and una- 
 nimoufly delivers it. Secondly , lome to the Light 
 and the Teflimony which the Scripture gives to it feife - 
 with other internail proofes which are obferved in 
 it , and to be found in no other Writing whatfoe- 
 ver. Thirdly, fome to the Teflimony of the Holy 
 GhoH , which cleares up the light that is in Scripture, 
 and feales this Faith to the ioulesofmen, that it is 
 Gods Word . Fourthly , all that have not imbru- 
 tifhed themfelves , and funke below their fpecies 3 
 and order of Nature , give even Naturall P^afon 
 leave to come in , and make Co me proofe, and give 
 Fome approbation upon the weighing, and the 
 confidcration of other Arguments. And this muft 
 be admitted, if it be but for Pagans and Infidels, 
 who either confider not , or value not any one of 
 the other three : yet muft fome way or other bee 
 Rom. i. 20. converted , or left without excufe, Pom. i. and that is 
 done by this very evidence. 
 
 Num. 3. *• For the firft The Tradition of the Church, 
 
 which is your way : That taken and confidered 
 alone , it is fo farre from being the onely , that it 
 cannot be a fufficient Proofe to believe by Divine 
 Faith, that Scripture is the Word of God. For that 
 which is a full and fufficient proofe , is able of it 
 felfc to fettle the foule of man concerning it. 
 Now the Tradition of the Church is not able to doe 
 this. For it may bee further asked , why wee 
 fhould believe the Churches Tradition ? And if it be 
 anfwered, we may believe, Pecaufe the Church is 
 infallibly governed by the Holy Ghoft • it may yet be 
 
 demanded 
 
 60 
 
 0 .) 
 
 (2.) 
 
 (30 
 
 40 
 
 1 
 
uas ve- 
 
 * A rift. 1 . Pofi . c.l.T. \6. Ter 
 Pacium. guocirca fi J'tu rtin&S'- 
 7A > propter prim a Jcrmns dr ere- 
 dtmus, ilia pnoejue ft tnwi dr ere- 
 climtts [xay<Kov marls , cjuia per ilia 
 feimns , dr crcditnus etiam po- 
 fteriora . 
 
 §.i 6 k 
 
 demanded of you. How that may appeare ? And 
 if this be demanded, either you muft fay, you 
 
 have it by fpeciall ffeVelationfwhich is the private Spi- 2 up ally __ 
 
 rit you objedf to other men, or elfe you muft attempt ras Traditioxes 
 
 to prove it by Scripture a , as all of you doe . And that scTipCrT Bc* 
 very offer, to prove it out of Scripture is afufficient hr. L.y dever - 
 acknowledgement, that the Scripture 3 is a higher p^^vdTc 
 Pro ofe, then the Churches Tradition, w c h (in your own p- *50.* proves 
 Grounds)is, or may be Queftionable,till you come Tr ffjftion out of 
 thither.Befides,this is an Inviolable ground of Rea- 2 * 2 
 
 ion.* * That the Principles of any (fonclujion 
 muft he of more credite 9 then the conclujion it 
 felf. Therefore if the Articles of Faith, The 
 Trinity, the Pjfi utre Elion, and the reft, be 
 the Conclujions , and the Principles by 
 which they are prooved, be only Eccle- 
 jiajiicall Tradition 5 it muft needs follow. That the 
 Tradition of the (fhurch is more infallible then the^r- 
 tides of the Faith , if the Faith which we . 
 
 1 V 1 A • 1 n ill n n t £°rum err cron aifsimstlare non 
 
 have of the Articles ihould be finally (Re- T0 p um> qui a p rmt f ldcm No _ 
 Jolyed into the Veracity of the Qhun hes jbam, eo tanquam inuiumam 
 1 cjlimony. But this tjw Learned and 
 
 wary men deny. And therefore I hope mean &c.m. Can us. a. 2 M Lo- 
 your felfe dare not affirm e. a *' Ct 8 ' ^ tcrr:um - > 
 
 Againe, if the Voyce of the Church ( faying the Num, 4. 
 IBookes of Scripture commonly received , are the Word of 
 God ) be theformall Objetftof Faith , upon which 
 alone abfolutely I may refolve my felfe , then every 
 man not only may, but ought to refolve his Faith in- 
 to the Voyce or Tradition of the (f hire h : for every 
 man is bound to reft upon the proper and formall 0b+ 
 jeEt of the Faith But nothing can bee more evident 
 then this , That a man ought not to refolve his Faith of 
 this Principle into the foie Testimony of the Church. 
 
 Therefore neither is that Teftimony, ox Tradition alone 
 
 I 3 
 
 the 
 
6z 
 
 * Vox Be cleft <t non eft for male ObicBum Fidei. Stapl. 
 ReleCt.Cont: 4 cj. 3. A. 2. Licet in Articulo Fidei 
 [[Credo Ecclefiam]] forte tontine at ur hoc tctnm,CvQ- 
 do ca,qtf£ docet Ecclefia : tamen non intclligitur ne- 
 cejfario, quod Credo docenti Be cleft a tanquam Tefli in - 
 fallibili . ibid. Vbietuim refeit Opinionem. Dlirand i 
 (fr Gabr. Et Waldenf. L.z. DoFlr, Fidei *Art, 2, c. 
 21. Num.J\CT efimonium EccleftA Catholic A efi Obje- 
 tltitn Fidei (f hrifianA , cB Legiftatto Scriptura Cano - 
 
 ^ ^ r r . r r n • -t i* • > n • 
 
 the formalf Objedt of 
 Faith . * The Learned of 
 your owne part grant 
 this : t Although in that 
 Article of the C, d (I 
 believe the Catfnlike 
 Church ) per adventure aU 
 
 nicAyfubjicitnr tamen ipfi ftcut Teftis Iudici,d“ Tefli- c-nurcn ) peraaventm a 
 
 monium Veritati (Be. Canus Loc.Lib . 2. cap. 8. this he Contained ( 1 bclitV . 
 
 ft Ecclefia adit urn nobis pro. bet adbhwfmodi Libros Sa - ,7 / , 7 • 7-7 . 1 
 
 cros cognofcendos , protintts ibi acqttiefcendum eft y fed thm ff whtch ths 
 
 ultra oportet progrcdi,& Solida Dei veritate niti &c, QhurCl) tCUchcth )yet this is 
 
 not neceffarily under food , 
 T hat 1 believe the Church teachings anTnfallille Witnefje. 
 And if they did not confcfle this 5 it were no hard 
 thing to prove. 
 
 N 11 m. 5. But here’s the cunning of this Devife All the 
 
 Authority $ of Fathers, (founcels , nay of Serif ture too, 
 „ , b (though this be con- 
 
 Omms eroo BcclefiaFHca iAtithcritas y cum ft ad j ^ 
 
 Beflificandum de Cbrifto 3 & Le gibus ejus : vilior eft tO til Cl t OW11C JJo- 
 
 Chrifti legibtts, & Script wis SanCtis mce (farto p oft- Elvhie) Hiuft bee finally 
 
 ^ L ' 2- ®' S - 3 - 2I - Refolved into the M. 
 
 thority of the Trefentfo- 
 mane Church , And though they would feeme to 
 have us believe the Fathers , and the Church of old , 
 yet they will not have us take their Do&rine from 
 their owne Writings, or the Decrees of Councels : 
 becaufe (as they fay) wee cannot know by read- 
 ing them, what their meaning was, but from 
 the Infallible Tefimony of the prefent tf^omane Church 
 teaching by Tradition , Now by this , two things 
 are evident. Firft, That they aferibeas great Au- 
 thority ( if not greater ) to a part of the Catholike 
 Qmrch , as they doe to the Vohole , which wee 
 believe in our Creede ; and which is the Society 
 of all Chriftians. And this is full of Abfurdity 
 in Nature , in (feafen , in All things } That any 
 
 Part 
 
' §. T 6 » 
 
 ‘Part fhould bee of 
 equail worth , politer, cre- 
 dit, or authority with the 
 Whole. Secondly jthat in 
 their Doctrine concern- 
 ing the Infallibility of 
 
 % 
 
 c To turn eft majusilia parte. Etiamd Axioma ft 
 apud Euclydem , non tamcn ideo Geometricumputan- 
 dum efi , quia Cjeomctres eo utit'ur. Vtitur enim & 
 tota Logic a. Ram inSchol. CWatth. And Arifiotle 
 vindicates iuch Propofitions W iv tok y.z- 
 
 from being vfiirpcd by Particular 
 .Sciences. a.-mciy 6 CA.^i &c. fhiia convenient otnni 
 Enti <dr non alicui Cfeneri Jeparatim. ^ Afetapb t 
 cap. 7 ,. T. 7. 
 
 their Church,t heir pro- 
 ceeding ib molt unreafonalle. For if you aske them. 
 
 Why they believe their whole VoElrlne to be the Jole 
 true (jatholiKe Faith ? Their Anfwer is 5 Pccaufeit is 
 agreeable to the Word of God , and the DoBrine and Tra - 
 dition of the Ancient Church, if you aske them , How 
 they know that to befo? They will then produce 
 1 eitimonies of Scripture , Qouncells , and Fathers y 
 But if you askc a third time, By what meanes they 
 are allured, that chefeTeftimonies doe indeed make 
 for them and their Caufe ? They will not then 
 have recourfe to Text of Scripture , or Expojition 
 of F others, or phrafe and propriety of Language y in 
 which either*of them were firft written, or to the 
 fcope of the Author 
 
 J 1 d r , r 1 d Intelligentia dtSlorumex caufis efi afnmenda dicen** 
 Or the [^aujes or tile } non Sermoni res, fed Rei Sermo eji fubjeClus. 
 
 thin* Uttered, or the s. Hilar. Z. 4 .^ TrinEx materia ditti dirigendus efi 
 
 Conference with like H^^ft. L.de Refer, carnis. c.i 7. 
 
 e ZJidendo differ entiat Similium ad Similia . Orig. 
 
 e Places , or the Ante - TraZt. 19 ins Mattb. 
 
 cedems f and Confer f %ecolendum eft -unde venerit ifia Sententia. & qua 
 
 ' illamfuperiora pepererint, quibu/que connexa depende- 
 at.S. Aug.f)? ip.Solet circumftantia Scripture, illumi- 
 nate Sent enti am. S. Aug. L . 85 fncff. q, 69. 
 
 § flua ambigue & obfeure in nonnullis Scripture Sa - 
 era locis diZla videntur 3 per ea qua alibi cert a, & indu- 
 full Places of Scripture bitata haberfturdeclarantur . S Bafil in Results con- 
 
 b, *, «J uwt ,„d 
 
 manifejl. With diners 1.19 &21.S. Aug. X 3. ‘De'DoZt. f drift c . 16. 
 
 Other Pules °iven for ^ofis efl S crip tur arum obfeuris Manifflafubneclere , 
 
 . V- D & quod prms fub anigmatibus dtxerint } apertd voce pro- 
 
 the true knowledge ferrc % S.\p^iox\.i^Efa\qi.princ.Viae.%. 
 
 and underftanding; of 
 
 o 
 
 quents of the fame Pla- 
 ces ; g or the Expojition 
 of the darke and doubt- 
 
 Scripture 
 
I 
 
 
 §. id. 
 
 fa s.hu%.L.j/tf Scripture, which do frequently occurrc in h S. Jugu* 
 CkrjjH* j^ ne nonc 0 f th'cfc, or the like helpcs: That, 
 
 with them, were to Admit a Private Spirit , or to 
 make way for it : But their finallAnfwer is • Tl?cy 
 know it to be fo y lecaufe the prej ent pomane Church Vt>it- 
 jieffthit , according to Trad > arguing, dprimo 
 
 ad ultbnum , from firft to lait , u.t Prefent Church of 
 Pynne and her Followers believe her owne Do- 
 ctrine , and Tradition to bee true and Cathohke , 
 becaufe (he profefles it to be fuch. And if this bee 
 not to proo vc idem per idem, the fame by thefame 3 
 I know not what is .* which, d <gh it be moft ab- 
 furd in all kind of learning, yet t of this I fee not 
 how his pofsible to winded? Jves, fo long as 
 the laftrefolntion of their Faith muft reft (as they 
 teach) upon the Tradition r r ie prefent Church 
 only. 
 
 It feemes therefore to mce very neceffary *, that 
 
 webee able toproove 
 the Bookes of Scrip- 
 ture to bee the Wcrd of 
 
 N u m.<5. 
 
 * And this is fo neceffary, that B elUrmine confeffes , 
 that if Tradition ( which he relics upon ) be not Di- 
 vine : He and his can have no Taith. Nonhubemus 
 fidem . Tides enim verbo Dei nititur. L, verbo 
 Dei.c. 4. § .At fi ita eft. 
 
 And A. C, tells us. p.47. To know that Scripture 
 is Divine and Infallible in every part, isa. Founda- 
 tion fo neceffary, as if it be doabtfully queftioncd,alI 
 the Taith built upon Scripture falls to the ground. 
 And he gives the lame reafon for it^>. 5 0. which *Bel- 
 etrmine doth. 
 
 Cody by fome Authority that 
 is abfolutely Divine. For 
 if they bee warranted 
 unto us by any Autho- 
 rity lefle then Divine, 
 
 
 then all things contained in the^ which have no 
 greater aflurancc then the Scrip- n , in which they 
 are read ) arc not ObjeSls of DiVi vliefe. And that 
 once granted will enforce us to id. That all the 
 Articles of Chrijlian Ddiefe have no greater aflurancc 
 then Humane > or Morall Faith ,or Credulity can afford. 
 An Authority then (imply Divine muftmake good 
 the Scriptures Infallibility, at leaftin the laftPyfh 
 htion of our Faith in that Poync. This Authority 
 
 cannot 
 

 §.! 6 . 
 
 65 
 
 cannot bee any Tcjlimony ? 
 or Voyce of the * Church alone. 
 For the Q hurcb confifts of 
 men fubjedt to Error ; And 
 no one of them , fince the 
 Apostles times, hath heeneaf- 
 
 ^Ec cleft am Spirit ft. a f flat am ejfe 3 certe credo. Non 
 ut veritatem, autboritatemv'e Libris (flanonicis 
 tri ; teat, fed ut dec eat illos 3 non alios ejfe Canoni- 
 cps. Nec fl adit urn nobis pr abet ad hujufmodi fa- 
 cros Libros cognofccndos , protinus ibi acquie- 
 feendum eft, Jed ultra eportet progredi , dr foil da 
 D elver it ate niti. flftuh ex re intelhgitur quid 
 flbi voiuerit Auguftinus , quum ait , Evangelic 
 L ' , non crederementfl &c. M.Canus L.i.de Loris ^ 
 
 filled with io plentiiull a C.S/0/.34. b. Non docet fundatam ejfe Evsmge- 
 
 meal lire of the Die fed Spirit , lii f ldem in Ecc W* A ^°rimc ,fed &c. Ibid, 
 as to fecure him from being deceived $ And all the 
 & arts 1 being all liable to miltaking, and fallible , the 
 Whole cannot poflibly bee Infallible ,in, and of itfelf, 
 and pnviledged from being deceived in home ‘ ' 
 
 Things , or ocher. And even in thofc F mdamentatl 
 Things, in which the Whole VntVer fall Church neither 
 doth, nor can Errejyet even there her Authority is not 
 13 /W^becaufe She delivers rhofefupernatural Truths 
 by Promife of Aftift an re, yet tyed to Memos : And not 
 by any f peciall Immediate (Revelation, which is necefla- 
 rily required to the very leaft Degree of Divine Au- 
 thority And therefore our f Worthies do not only fay, j Hoo ^/ 9 
 but prove, That all the Qmrche s' Constitutions are of the / 
 nature of Humane Law. a And (ome among you, not ®StapI.^/W 7 * 
 unworthy for their I earning, prove it atiarge, lhat 
 all the Churches Testimony , or <voyce> or Sentence ( call it 
 what you will ) is hut Juomodo , or aliquo modo, not 
 Jimply , but in a manner Divine. Yea., and A.C. himielfc, j. c.p. 5 1; 
 after all his debate comes to that, and no fur- 
 ther , That the Tradition of the Church is, at leaf in f me 
 fort , Divine and Infallible . Now that which is Di- 
 
 vine but in a fort or manner, bee ’it the Chur- 
 ches manner, is aliquo ynodonon Divina , in a fort 
 not Divine. But this Great (Principle of Faith ( the 
 Ground and p roofeof whaefoever elfeis of Faith) 
 cannot ftand firme upon a Proofs that is , and 
 is w# j in a manner , and not in a manner Divine, 
 
 K As 
 
 
66 
 
 N u m . 7. 
 lA. C.p. 4f. 
 
 A, (ft, p,< o. 
 
 A-C-P'U. 
 
 ,j Verhum Dei 
 non eft talc, roc 
 habet nllam Ah * 
 tboritatem , quid 
 Jcriptum eft 
 in membrahis , 
 fed quia a Deo 
 profettum eft . 
 Be lar. /• 4, de 
 Verb. Dei .2 §. 
 Eccldiatlica: 
 TraditionC'. 
 
 * Lex ordinata 
 per Angelos in 
 manu Media 0- 
 rts Gal.; ip. 
 
 • S. Luk. i-,©, 
 *> The Holy 
 Gholl &c. 
 which Ipakeby 
 the Proph rs, tn 
 Symb % hucn* 
 
 §, \ 6 . 
 
 As it muft, if we have no other Anther then the Ex- 
 ternal Tradition of the Church to lodge it upon, and 
 hold it lleddyin the mi dll of thole waves, which 
 daily beateupon it. 
 
 Now here A C . confeffcs cxprefly,That to prove . 
 the *Bookes of Scripture to bee Divine, we mull bee 
 warranted by that which is Infallible . Hee cen/ejfes 
 farther , that there can be no jufficient Inf alible T roof e of 
 this , but Cods Word y Written, or unwritten And 
 he gives his Reafon for it. Decaufeif the Troofc be 
 mee-ely Humane , and Fail'd le , the Science or Faith which 
 is built upon it, can be no tetter So then this is agreed 
 on by mec, (yet leaving ocher men to travell 
 bv their owoe way , fo bee they can come to 
 make Scripture thereby Infallible ) That Scrip- 
 ture mult bee knowne to bee Scripture by a juf- 
 ficient, Infallible , Divine Proofe And thatfuch Proofe 
 can be nothing but the Word of God , is agreed 
 on alio by me. Yea , and agreed on for me it 
 fhall be likewife , that Gods Woi ^ may be Writ- 
 ten, and unwritten . For Cardinal t Sell mine tells us 
 truly, that it is not the writing, or printing, that 
 nukes Scripture the Word of God . but it is the 
 Prime Vnening Eflentiall Truth, Godhimfelfe ut- 
 tering, and revealing it to his Church , that makes it 
 Verbum Dei, the Word of God. And this Woid of 
 God is uttered to men, either immediately by God him - 
 felfe , Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghoft , and to kw as 
 to the Prophets and A pofllts : Or mediately , either 
 by Angels , to whem God had Ipoken firil, and fo 
 the Law was given, * Gal;, and fo alio the MefTage 
 was delivered to the Blefjed Virgin , 3 S. Luke 1. or by 
 the Prophets b and Apofiles , and fo the Scriptures 
 were deliv red to the Chui ch.But their being Vvitten, 
 gave them no Authority at all, in regard ol them- 
 
 lelves. 
 
 

 
 §.l£. 
 
 £7 
 
 fclves. Written or mm ittcnfht Word was the fame. 
 
 But it was written, that 
 
 it m isht bee the better c a N « m A^roph^ etiam z ivcmilm Ac ^ 
 
 . Jtolts^muitas pnoebant ccrruptuas Juv kocpratexiu 
 
 , prefer Ved , and Conti- utulo , eyuaf ab Apofiolts viva vcceefem i radii*. : 
 
 11 lied with tile more ift* propter hand pf am caufam Apofioli ‘2) c U An am Jua m 
 
 teprity torheuleof the 
 Church, and the more 
 faithfully in our d Me- 
 mories. And you have 
 been often enough told 
 
 ft* j j 
 
 caper ant Uteri f comprehendere , & Ec clef is cowmen- 
 dare. Cllnn . Exam. Concil Trid. deTraainonibUs 
 fub oclavo aenere T radtt. And io alio Janfen. Comment . 
 inS. loll 5, 47. Sic pit enim fir mins ejt oued manda- 
 tur Uteris , ita eji culpabiUus & majut non credere 
 Scriptis, ejuam non credere Verbis. 
 d Labilts eji memorta, & ideo indite mas ^criptura: 
 f ^ . SDicenaum cypiodvcrpim eji > fed hoe non babet , nifi ex 
 
 (were truti?, and not the inundantia peccatorunh Heiir. a Cjand. Sum. p. I, 
 
 maintaining of a party, ip[‘pfp oremoritu p" Tc ~ 
 
 , . D r* | r . fi amentum transfert in tabulasdiu duraturas . Op^ir. 
 the thlllg you leelv lor, y ^ Cbrifius ipfe non tranfiulit fed ex Opfari fewen- 
 
 that if you will (hew US tia t Epus Infpiratione, ft non Jujfu , Apofioli tranfiu- 
 
 any fuch unwritten srord lcrunu 
 of God delivered by his Prophets and Apoflles y we wiii 
 acknowledge it to be DiVtne i and Infallible . Sojvritten, 
 or unwritten , that (hall not Humble us.But then A. C. 
 mull: not tell us, at Icaft not thinke we -fhall 1 wallow 
 it into our Beliefe : that every thing which he 
 fa yes is the unwritten Word of God is fo indeed. 
 
 i know ZBellarmine hath written a whole Booke 
 * T>e (verlo Dei non feripto , of the Word ot God y Cr y e <j) c f non 
 not written , in which he handles the Contro ver- fiript. 
 fie concerning Iraditions. And the Cunning is, to 
 make his weaker Readers believe, that all that , which 
 He, and his are pleafed to call Traditions , are by and 
 by no lefle to be received , and honoured, then the 
 wwritlen word of God ought to be. Whereas tis a 
 thing of ca fie knowledge, That the urftorittenVl^ord 
 of God and Tradition, are not Convertible Termes , 
 that is , are not all one. For there are ma- 
 ny Vnwritten Vfards of God , which were ne- 
 ver delivered over to the Church, for ought ap- 
 peared And there are many Traditions (affirmed, 
 
 K 2. at 
 
 9- O'- 
 
6 8 $.N>. 
 
 at leaft to be fuchby the of (Rome ) which 
 
 were never warranted by any unwritten Word of God . 
 
 Num, Firft 5 That there are many unwritten words of God > 
 
 which were never delivered over to the Church, is 
 manifeft.For whcn,or where were the wo rds^ which 
 3 Ads 1.3. Chrift fpake to his Apofttes y during the a forty dayes 
 of his Converting with them after his Refurrecfron, 
 firft delivered over to the Church? or what were 
 the unwritten Words He then fpake ? If neither Hee 3 
 nor His Apoftles y or Evangelifts have delivered them 
 to the Church , the Church ought not to deliver 
 
 them to her Children. 
 
 b Annunciare aliquid (Phriftianis Catholici*, prater id Qf jf {he doe ^ tr elder € 
 quod acceperunt, nunquam licuit nufauam licet , nun* * • 1 r- 
 
 quam licebit . Vincen. Lir. c. j 4. Et praeipit nihil ali* tEUUUUM 5 m a "C d r<X- 
 
 udinnovari y nifi quo* traditum eft . S. Cypri. ad Tom* ditlQll of that, which Was 
 peium cont. Episl. Stephan . princ. not delivered to her, 
 
 and by fomeof Them,thenShc is unfai hful to God, 
 and doth nor JerVare depofitum , faithfully keepe that 
 * 1 Tim . 6 20. which is committed to her Tru/l** i lim. 6. And 
 andyx Tim.1.14. her Sonnes, which come to know it, are not bound 
 
 c Si ipfa ( Ecclefia) eontraria Scriptur* dicer et, ( F i delis) t0 C ^C V Tradition 
 
 ipfmoncrederetd&c. Hcn.a Gand.Swzz.p.i. A.\o.q.\. againft the c Word of 
 An j AV^^Iumfelfe.tluchemight the more We- hdf p ^ p cr w | iere . 
 ly derend himlelre m the Caule ot Traditions, iayes, . 
 
 (but how truly let other men ludge, )Nullam Trad ti- lOCVer Chrift holds hlS 
 onem admittimus contra S ripturam. L. 4. u Verbs pcacc or chat his WOrds 
 Dei.c, 3. S. Dcmde commune. r n i r 
 
 a* c not Regiitred, I am 
 
 96 t dwufiiMS Opinion ? No man may dare without 
 
 Hi i Verb a y m*u1 - rafhncfle lay they were thefe, or thefe. So, there were 
 
 ta habco dicere, ma ny unwritten Words of God, which were never de- 
 led non poteftis J i i r} 7 3 < 
 
 portaremodo. hvered over to the Church j and there 5 ore never 
 made Tradition. And there are many Traditions 9 
 which cannot belaid to be the unwritten^ ord of God * 
 For I. believe, a Learned Romanift , that Will weigh 
 before he fpeakcs,will not eafliy fay, Thai to Anndnt, 
 ox nk Spittle in Baptif me : or to ufc three Dippings in 
 
 the 
 
I 
 
 §• 1 6. 6p 
 
 the u:e of that Sacrament : or diverfe other like Tra- 
 ditions had their ^ ije from any Word of God unwrit- 
 ten : Or if he be fo hardy as to fay fo/tis gratis di- 
 Hum , and he will have enough to doe to prove it, 
 
 So,there may be an unwritten Word of God , which is 
 no Tradition. And there are many Traditions, which 
 are no unwritten Word of GW.Therfore Tradition muft 
 be taken two wayes. Either,as it is the Churches 
 AH delivering , or the Thing thereby delivered, and 
 then ’tis Humane Authority, or from it , and unable 
 infallibly to warrant Divine Faith , or to be the Ob- 
 ject of it. Or els as it is the unwritten Word of God : 
 and then where ever it can be made to appeare fo, 
 
 ’tis of divine and infallible Authority , no queftion. 
 
 But then I would have A. C . confider where he is in A.c p 4 9 . 
 this Particular. Hetelsus, We mufl know infallibly, 
 that the Dookes of Holy Scripture are Divine , and that 
 this muH be done by unwritten Tradition , but fo , as 
 that this Tradition is the Word of God unwritten : Now 
 let him but prove that this, or any Tradition 9 which 
 the Church of tffome hands upon, is the Word of God, 
 though unwritten, and the bufineffe is ended. But 
 A. C. mull not thinke, that becaufe the Tradition of j c 
 the Church ids me thefeBookes ar cVerbum Dei , Gods 
 Word • and that I do both honour and believe this 
 Tradition • That therefore this Tradition it felfe is 
 Gods Word too ; and fo ab/olutely fuff dent and infusi- 
 ble to worke this Beliefcinme. Therefore for ought 
 A. C. hath yet added, we mufl: on with our Inquiry 
 after this great Bufineflc, and mojl neceffary Truth . 
 
 2. For the fecond way of proving, That Scrip- Hum, i<x 
 ture fhould be folly and fufficiently knowne, as by 
 Divine and Infallible Teftimofly, Lnmine proprio, by 
 the relplendency of that Light, which it hath in it 
 felfe onely, and by the wicneffe that it can fo 
 
 K 5 give 
 
% 
 
 § .i 6 
 
 oive to it fclfe , I could never yet fee caufe to allow. 
 
 * Hook./. 2. §.4 *For as there is no place in Scripture that tels us, 
 Such Books containing fuch, and fuch Particulars arc 
 the Qanon , and infallible Will and Word of (fod ; So 
 if there were any fuch place , that were no (uffi- 
 cient proofe,- For a man may juftly aske another 
 Booke to beare witnefie of that; and againe of 
 
 Eufeb. Z..2. c, 
 17 . fine. Sdtt, 
 *Ba(il. 1549. 
 
 • * Eufeb.-Z. 3.C. 
 ? 5 ; 
 
 that another ; and where ever it were written in 
 Scripture 7 thatmuftbe apart of the Whole* And 
 no created thing can alone give witnefle to it felfe, 
 and make it evident, nor one partteflifie for ano- 
 ther , and fatisfie where Reafon will but offer to 
 conteft. Except thofe Principles cnely of Natural 1 
 knowledge, which appeare manifeft by intuitive 
 light of undemanding, without any Difcourfe. 
 And yet they, alfo to the weaker fort require Indu- 
 ction preceding. Now this Inbred light of Scripture 
 is a thing coincident with Scripture it felfe : and 
 fo, the 'Principles , and the Conclufon in this kind 
 of proofe fhould be entirely the fame , which 
 cannot be. Befides , if this inward Light were fo 
 cleare , how could there have beene any variety 
 among the Ancient Believers touching the Authori- 
 ty of S.* lames, and S.JudesEpiflles , and the h Apo~ 
 calyps, with other Bookes which were not recei- 
 ved for diverfe yeares after the reft of the New 
 Teflament ? For certainly, the Light which is in 
 the Scripture , was the fame then , which now it 
 is. And how could the Gofpell of S. Bartholomew , of 
 S. Thomas, and other counterfeit peeces obtaine fo 
 much credit with fome, as to be received into the 
 Canon, if the evidence of this Light were either 'Vni- 
 V erf all, or Infallible, of, and by it fclfe ? And this, 
 though I cannot approve, yet, me thinks, you may, 
 and upon probable grounds at lead. For I hope 
 
 no 
 
 \ 
 
 
f 
 
 71 
 
 f Except A (7. whole boldncfic 
 herein 1 cannot but pitie. Eor he 
 denies this light to the Scripture ^.d 
 gives it to Tradition: His words 
 are, p s 2 . Tradition of the ffhurch 
 if of a company , 7 rhich by its owne 
 light fhewes it [clfe to bee infallibly 
 afijled } &c. 
 
 b I fa 44. G? pq- 
 fim, 
 
 * Ad. 28. 25. 
 
 §. 16. 
 
 no t pom ’tuft will deny , but that 
 there is as muc 1 light in Scripture to 
 manifeft , and make oil niionof it 
 fclheto be infallibly the written Word 
 of G <d, a» there is in any Tradition of 
 the Church, that it is Divine, and in- 
 fa 11 illy the un x> itten Word of God. 
 
 And the Scriptures faying from the mouthes of 
 the Prophets, b H us faith the Lord , and from the 
 mouthes of the * Apoftle r, that the Holy Ghoft fpake 
 by them , are at lealt as able, and as fit to beare wit- 
 ntffe to their owne Verity ; as the Church is to 
 beare witnefTe to her owne Traditions , by bare fay- 
 ingthey come fiom the ^Apoftles . And your (elves 
 would never go to the Scripture, to prove that there 
 are T raaitions, b asyoudo,if you did notthinkethe b J-Jheff.sAj, 
 Sc ipture as eafie to be dilcovered by inbred light in it- u e ’ wr ' 5 * 
 Jeife, as Iradt tons by their light. And if this be fo, 
 t cn it is as probable at the lealt (which fome of ours 
 affirme ) That Scripture may hee biofone to bee the 
 Word of God, by the Light , and Luflre which it hath in c in your Arti- 
 it Jeife, as it is (which you ‘ affirme) That a Trad tion 
 may be hiosvne to be fucb, by the light yphicb it bath in it anfwered, 
 je te: which is an excellent Propofition to make And-AC.p.s». 
 j port withall , were this an Argument, to be hand- . # 
 
 led merrily. 
 
 3 . For the third Opinion, and way of proving; Num, ii. 
 either fume thinke,that there is no fufficient warrant 
 for this , unlefife they fetch it from the Teftimony of 
 the Holy Ghoft , and lolooke in vaine after fpeciall 
 Revelations, and make themfelves by this very Con- 
 ceit, obnoxious, and eafie to be led by all the whim- 
 perings of a (educing private fpirit • or els you would 
 fame nave them think fo. For your fide, both upon 
 
 this, and other Occafions, do often challenge, That 
 
 see 
 
* A Icfuite,iuider the name of T.S, 
 fet outaBooke, An. \ 6\o. which 
 he called, ‘TbeTricill of the Prote - 
 fi ant private Spirit . 
 a Vt T ejlimonia Serf t nr £ certain & 
 indabitAtam ftdem praftent^ neesffa- 
 riant videtur oftendcre, qsiodipfa c Di - 
 vin£ Sryiptura Jint Dct Spirit a injpi- 
 rates. Oiig.4. ■Set 
 
 We ref live all our Faith into the Vitiates 
 of a* private Spirit ; from which w 7 c 
 ihall ever prove our felves as free,if 
 not freer than you. To the Queflion 
 in hand then : Suppofe it agreed up- 
 on that there mull be a d i i \e 
 Faith 5 cut fubeffe non potefi falji n, 
 under which can reft no poffibie errour , That the 
 Bookes of Scripture are the written Word of G d: 
 If they which goe to the tellimony of the Holy 
 
 Ghoft for proofe of this, doe meane 
 * i cor 12 4 ^ kaith , Objettum Fidel , the Ob- 
 
 EOatar nobis a Deo,&c, S. Aug. in ject of Fa»th :hat is to bee belie- 
 8 7 - r ved , then^no cjueflion, they are out 
 
 of the ordinary way For God never 
 fent us by any woid or warrant 
 of his , to looke for any fuch fpe - 
 ... cia ! l and pnv.te Testimony to prove 
 
 rail p incipio int iritis movent <?, quod . . , . 1 , r • i r - 
 
 eft Dais. Tho. 2 2 £.q.6,A. i . c, "which that Fooke is,that we mud 
 And your ownc ‘Divines agree m believe. But if by F aith they meane, 
 
 the Habit , or Aft of Divine inf i fed 
 Faith , by which vertue they doe 
 believe the Credible Objeft , and 
 thing to bee believed • then their 
 fpcech is true , and confeiTed by all 
 Divines of all forts. For Faith is 
 the gift* of God, of God alone, 
 and an infufed t Habit ’in refpedt 
 whereof the Soule is n rely recipi- 
 ent ; And therefore the iole Jn- 
 fuler , the Holy Gbofl mud not bee 
 exclud d from that wbrke , which 
 none can doe, but Hee. For the 
 Holy Ghoft , as * Hee fird audited 
 the Scripture to the » Apoftles : 
 
 f homo ajfentiendo eis qua punt 
 fidsi, eieVA! 'r fapra Naturam Juam, 
 oportet quod hoc in r it ei ex fapernatu 
 
 this, That Tides acqutfita is not lulti- 
 cient for any Article, but there 
 mud be Tides inf aft , before there 
 can be Divine Certainty. Tides ac - 
 quifita innit it ar conjaShiris ham Ants. 
 Ad quern modam y Sara' eni fats 
 c Pr£ceptoribus, & Iadai fad Rabi- 
 ms. O Oentes fuis Philofooh'S , (dr 
 cmnes fuis Adajoribas inherent : non 
 ftc f hrisHant, fed per intcrias lumen 
 infaftm d SfirUti Santto , qao fir- 
 mifsime o certifsime movent a* ad 
 creden him, oc. Canus. L. 2 . Locor. 
 c. 8.S. Iain ii hctc. 
 
 * Sj/mb . Nicen . The Holy Ghoft 
 fpake by the Prophets, oc. Et 
 I . S. Pet. i.ii.fbais modus eft, quo 
 doces animat ea qua fatara funt ? 
 Dscaifh tnim Prophet as taos.S. Aug. 
 L. u .Cenfefc. ig. 
 
§. i6. 
 
 i 
 
 V* v 
 
 h So did he not leave the Church in generally nor the true 
 members of it in particular, 
 
 73 
 
 b Nec enim Ecclefia Xeftimoni umlaut Judicium pr&- 
 dicamus , ‘Dei Spirit urn , vel ab Ecelefia do t cute y 
 vel d nobis audientibus , excludimus y Jed utrobiqtse 
 difertt indttdimus , &c. Stapl. trip, contr. Will- 
 
 tak. c. 3 . 
 
 c Tides qua cap it ab Ecclefut X ■ JHmonio, quatenus 
 proponit (Jr indue it ad tidem } de^mt in 'Deo intus 
 revel ante , & intus docent e quod for is be tie ft a pra~ 
 dicavit. Stapl. Xjlett. Cent. 4. q. 3. a 2. Whenr 
 grave and learned men doe fometi nes holt , tha of 
 this Principle there is noproofe, hut by the Testi- 
 mony of the Spirit, &c. I thinke it is not their 
 meaning, to exclude ail outward Proofes, & c but 
 ratheitus. That all other meanes are untrfeduaT 
 of themfelves to worke Taith, without the lpcci- 
 all Grace of God. Hook.%bc.Lib . 3. §. 8. 
 
 without Grace to believe , 
 what hhnfelf had revealed, 
 and made Credible. So 
 that Faith, as it is taken 
 for the Vertue of Faith, 
 whether it be of this, or 
 any other Article, c though 
 it receive a kmde of prepa- 
 ration, or Occajion of Be- 
 ginning from the Teftimo - 
 ny of the Church , as it 
 propofeth , and induce th to 
 the Faith • yet it ends in God, revealing within, and teach - 
 ing within, that which the Church preached Without. Fof 
 till the Spirit of God move the Heart of man, he 
 cannot believe, be the Object never fo Credible . The 
 fpcech is true then, but 
 Mite J out of the State of V"? 
 
 l / J quum a, Deo immediate foie Done gratutte infufui 
 
 this Qyifjlion : which in- e(b , Nihil ad Q^uajhcnen, nifi quoad hoc quod wr 
 
 quires onely after a fuffi- &6 ' Heflr ‘ 4 " ‘ " 
 
 cient rtieane.' to make this * 
 
 Objefl Credible , and fit to be believed , againfl all im - 
 peachment of folly and temerity in Belief e , whether 
 men do actually believe it or not. For which no 
 man ma ; expert inward private feV elation, without 
 the externall means ofthe Church, unlelfe perhaps the 
 r caje of Ffecejs ity be excep. 
 ted,when a man lives in 
 fuch a time Sc place as ex- 
 cludes him from all ordi - 
 
 nary means • in which l dare not offer to fhut up God 
 from the fonles of men, nor to tie him to thole ordina- 
 ry waies and means ? to which yet in great wifdome 
 
 L Sfld 
 
 Gand. Sum n 
 
 c Stapl. %eletl. Con. 4. 3. A. 2. Doth nor 
 
 oncly adit me i r , but proves it too, d paritate ra- 
 tionu i in cafe of neccflry, where there is no Con- 
 tempt of the externall meanes. 
 
 

 Num, 12. 
 
 74 - 
 
 and provid ence He hath tied and bound all mankind . 
 
 Private Revelation then hath nothing ordinarily 
 to doe , to make the Object Credible in this , 7 W 
 Scripture is the Word of God , or in any other Article. 
 For the Queftion is of fiich outward, and evi- 
 dent meanes , as other men may take notice of, as 
 well as our felves. By which if there arife any 
 Doubting, or Infirmity in the Faith, others may 
 ftrengthe us, or we affoord meanes to fupporc 
 r r rn r • • • ^ them: Whereas tire a 7 e- 
 
 2 g/uid cum finrults oigitur. Dent Jett qm agit , cr ... ft o • • 
 
 ipfi cum quibtis agitur, fciunt. /fluid autem agatur JtlMOny OJ the O ply It , and 
 cnm geyiereH.uma.no )pcr Hidoriatn commendari vo- ^// pyiVdte ^ReV eldtlO)l is 
 Ittlt . O' per Prophetiam. S. Ane. de vera Rdia^c.1 5. • » • n , r r 
 
 * r r within , nor jeit , norjeen of 
 
 any , 4 f/?4t /?4t/; it. So that hence can be drawn 
 
 noprot to others. And Miracles are not fufficient 
 alone tc prove it, unlefle both They } md the Revelation 
 too agree with the Rule of Scripture- which is now 
 an unauer able Rule by b man ? or Angel! . To all this 
 A. Q fiyes nothing, lave that I Jeeme not to admit of an 
 infallible Jmpuljion of a private Spirit , ex parte fubje&i, 
 without any infallible Re a f on , and that fufficiently ap - 
 plied ex parte objedti,^ic/> if 1 did admit , would open 
 a gap to all Enthufiajmes^and dreames of fanaticall men . 
 Now for this yet I thank him. For Ido not one- 
 ly feeme wot to admit , but I doe moft clearely reject 
 tii* phrenfie in the words going before. 
 
 4. Thelaft way, which gives ^Reafon leave to 
 
 ‘ Vtitur tamen facra VoBrln* Ratione Humana, COmC in,and prove what 
 non auidem <td probandum Fidem tpf*m,fedAd mani- it- rn^v tint infiltf K/» 
 fefiandtim aJiqtta anetradtinttirin hstcCDottri- j . 7 * y 
 
 nh. Tho. A d 2. denied by any realona- 
 
 pAfsihas tationis novut homo tendit inD enm^S . Aug. ble man. For though 
 ^ty^^^.c.i^.CPaflibuSjVcrucftjiednccsEquis, _ • 1 s* ^ 
 
 ncc folis.* ) 7 /am Invifibilia T>ei altiori m&do yuan- a/gajon Wit h OUt Grace 
 
 turn ad plura percipit Fides-rfuam Ratio naturalis ex cannot fee the Way to 
 
 Cretin D*mr**H.Tbo.x*4. K A. 3 sd 3. Heaven, nor believe thi 
 !Booke } in which God hath written the way ; yet 
 
 Grace 
 
 h Gal.x.8. 
 J, C.p. 52 
 
 Num. 13. 
 
§• id. 
 
 
 Grace is never placed but in a reajonable creature , 
 
 and proves by the very feat, which it hath taken up, 
 
 that the end it hath, is to b cftirituall eye-water, to 
 
 make F{eaJou lee what by t feature onely it cannot , i. Cur.a.14/ 
 
 but never to blemilh (Rea~ ... r 
 
 , . . . d fhtia fcientia certitminetn habent ex natural* 
 
 Jon in that, which it can lumine T^ationis human&,cju4 pot eft err are: Theo - 
 
 lom brehend . Now the ufe f°JL* a ***** ( q u£ ^ acet & objeiium dr NotitUm 
 
 C r * 11 Fidei, ft cut dr Ftdem iff am ) certitudinem habet 
 
 Ol J\ea/on IS very general 1 • ex fo im i n e Fdivina feientia J qua decipi non poteft* 
 
 and man (do what he can) Tho .p. I. q.t.A^.c. Vt ipfdfide valentioresfa - 
 
 IS ltlll apt to learc an £ont,Fp,Manj,ch4i>di Uam> V und amentum 1 4 • 
 leeke for a fyajon why he Hoc antem it a intelligcndnm eft, ut feientia certior 
 
 will believe, chough after 
 
 he once believes, his Faith tia, majus Tfobur in Fide. Ft hoc^uia in Fide y dr 
 
 Crowes d ftronger thanei- *d F idem Aldus imper at us Voluntatis concurrit. 
 t i • r\ t ? t • Credere emm efi A tins Intellect us Vera affentien- 
 
 thet his JfedjGU , or his tie product US ex Voluntatis Imperio. Bid. in 
 
 KnO~ifrled?e\ and great rea- l •Sent. d, 23 , q. 2 . A.I. Vnde Tho. Jntelletlus 
 fF r y. 1 r • (fredentis determinatur ad Vnum , non per Ratio - 
 
 ion lot this, bccaule it goes nem 3 fedper Voluntatem ; dr ideo Afenfus hie 
 
 higher and fo Upon a lafer accipittlr pro A bln JnteHeFlus i feeundum quodk 
 
 Principle, than either ofthe £"”“***' * r~m. *• 2. * a. 
 
 other can in this life. 
 
 . In this Particular , the Bookes called th c Scrip- Num. 14. 
 ture , arc commonly and conftantly reputed to 
 bee the Word oj God , and fo infallible Verity, to 
 the leaft point of them. Doth any man doubt 
 this ? The world cannot keepc him from going 
 to weigh it at the Ballance of %eafon , whether 
 it bee the Word of God , or not. To the lame 
 Weights hee brings the T radition of the Church y 
 the inward motives in Scripture it felfe, all Te- 
 fiimomes within, which leeme to beare wit- 
 nefTe to it • and in all this , there is no harme: 
 the danger is, when a man will ufe no other 
 Scale , but { \eafon , or prefer re %eafon before any 
 other Scale, kor the Word of God , and the Books 
 containing it , refule not bee weighed by 
 
 L % *%jaJon« 
 
76 
 
 « Si vcbis , rat ion i, & veritati con - 
 f cntanca videntur , pretio habete, 
 & , de mjfteriis Rcligionii, Tuftin. 
 
 rt ApoU 2 slg*tnr,.fi fn(t difpo - 
 jfi I .atiot is, G^r, Tertull. Z 
 £ >;•. Ck^if.:. c, 1 8. Rational ile f# 
 t We c Dcum ejfe Atttcrem Script u» 
 > t . Hcnr a Gand. Sum, To. i.Ar . 
 p. *. 3. 
 
 $. \ 6 . 
 
 N n m« 1 5.' 
 
 Pgafon. But the Scale is not large 
 enough to containe, nor the Weights 
 to meaflire out the true vertue , and 
 full force of either. -Peajon then can 
 give no fupernaturall ground, into 
 which a man mav refolve his Faith, 
 That Scripture is ti c Word of God in- 
 fallibly- yet feafon can go fo high as it can prove 
 that Chriftian Religion, which relts upon th c Authori- 
 ty of this®oo£e, Hands upon furer grounds of Na~ 
 ture, Pgafon y common Equity , and luflice , than any 
 thing in the World, which any Injidell, ormeere 
 Naturahft , hath done, doth, or can adhere unto, 
 again!! it, in that which he makes , accounts , or ajfumes 
 as Religion to himfelfe. 
 
 The Ancient Fathers relied upon the Scriptures, 
 no Chriftiansmore • and having to doe with Philo + 
 fophers ( men very well feene in all the fubtilties, 
 which Naturall Reafon could teach, or learne) 
 They were often put to it, and did as often make it 
 good. That they hadfufficient warrant to relie, fo 
 much as They did, upon Scripture. In all which Dif* 
 putes, becaufe they were to dealc with Infidels, they 
 did labour to make good the Authority of the 
 Booke of God by fuch Arguments, as unbelie- 
 vers thegalelves could not but thinkc reafonable ? 
 if they weighed them with indifferency. For 
 though I let the Myjleries of Faith abo e Reafon , 
 which is their proper place*, yet I would have 
 no man thinke They contradict tffeajoh , or the 
 Principles thereof. No lure. For %tafon by her own 
 light can difcover how firmely the Principles of Re- 
 ligion are true: but all the Light fliee hath will 
 never bee able to finde them falfe. Nor may 
 any man thinke that the Principle:: ( J{eligion - 
 
 even 
 
77 
 
 
 4 Hook . L. 5 . § . 8. Si Tlato ip/e 
 vivcret , cr me interroaantem 
 non dfpernaretur &c. S, Aug. 
 de verb. Rclipr, c. 3 . J idearmts 
 (juatcntit Ratio pole/ } progredi a 
 vifibilibus ad imijib'tiia % O'U. 
 Ibid.c jp. 
 
 §•15. . , . , 
 
 , • ’ H ‘ i i 
 
 even this , 1 hat Scriptures are the Word oj~ Cod 3 are fo 
 indifferent to a Naturall eye, that it may with as juft 
 eaufe leane to one part of the Coniradiftion , as to the 
 other. For though this Truth , That Scripture is the 
 Word of God, is not fo Dcmonflratively evident, 
 a p/w/, as to enforce Aflent:yetit is ffrengthen’d fo 
 abundantly with probable Arguments, both from 
 the Light of Nature it felfe, and Hummel efimony y 
 that he mult be very vvilfulfandfelfc-conceitedydiat 
 fhall dare to fufpect it. 
 
 Nay, yet farther, a It is not altogether impofible to Kum, 16 . 
 groove it even hy %eafon 3 a Truth infallible^r 
 elfe to make them deny fome apparentPrincu 
 ple of their pstn. For Exampledc is an ap- 
 parent Principle, and with them, That. 
 
 God, or the Abfdute prime .Agent, cannot be 
 forced out of any Pojjejsm. For if He 
 could be forced by another Greater , He were neither 
 Prince) nor Abfdute , nor b God, in their o wne Thcolngic. 6 'Si vimfpefos ■; 
 Now they muft grant , That that God , and Chrifl , 
 which the Scripture teaches^ and we believe, is the c Mmdo. cap. 7. 
 only true God, and no other with him and fo deny 
 the Deity 3 which they worfhipped, or elfe deny their Cic.ijc Leg % 
 owne Principle about the Deity , That God cannot be 
 commanded , and forced out of poffefion : 
 
 For c their Gods, Saturne, and Serapis, and 
 
 Jupiter himfelfe , have bcene adjured by the colitis, vitti do lore quod font ,e l o - 
 
 -<«*«**?*? 
 
 bcene forced out of the bodies they pofjeJJcd , jf rorurn afsifentibus, mentiun- 
 and confefled tbemfelves to be foule and fe- tur.Ms teftxbxs cfo cos D<tmo- 
 
 'JJJ J ... / p. J nes de fe verum conptentibus 
 
 ducting DiVels: And their Lonfejsion was to cre ditc.Adjurati cnimper T>aim 
 be fupbofed true, inpoxnt of Pea f on : For verum, tf-folkm inviti &c, Ar- 
 
 , Y J . f J ^ 1 / 1 nob. S. contra Gent , \A 4 i- 
 
 they that were adored as Gods, would never ..ought. 
 
 belie themfelve ■ info DiVels, to their owne re- 
 proach j efpeci lly in the prefence of them that TPorpippcftt; 
 
 ■7 '' " ' L j ~ ' f 
 
 ",y - 
 
 
^ » r ^ o 
 
 tkm 5 they not forced , This, many of the Vnbe- 
 lievers faw; therefore they could not ( in very force 
 of Pgafon) but they mu A either deny their God, or deny 
 their Principle in Nature. Their long Cujb»:e would 
 not forfake their God , and their %eafon could not 
 forget their Principle. * If tfjeafon therefore might 
 judge among them 5 they could not worfhip any 
 thing that was under Command. And if it bznaj on- 
 able to doe, and believe this, then why no fc ^afona- 
 lle alfo to believe, That Scripture is his Word, gi- 
 ven to teach himfelfe , and Chriji, fincc there they find 
 dS.Mat.1v22 Chrift a doing that, and * giving polder to doe it after y 
 c s.Mat.i 6.17 w bi c b themlelves faw executed upon their : 'Dtvdl - 
 
 Gods ? ' \ 
 
 Num. 17. Befidcs, whereas all other written Laives have 
 fcarce had the honour to be duly obfer ved , or con- 
 ftantly allowed worthy approbation in the Parti- 
 cular places , where they have becneeftablifhed tor 
 Lawes j this Law of Chrift , and this Canon of Scripture 
 the container of it, is , or hath bcene received in al- 
 
 * r . r .r . » r l l mod* all Nations under Heaven*: And 
 
 * Si Libn quoquo mo do Je hfibent ' , 
 
 fantti ram-it Divlntrtm remmfie- whereloevet it hath bcene received , 
 
 ni prope tonus generis human cm- j t bach been bothappiOVCd for Vn- 
 fefsione difFamantur. &c. S. Aug. . , , . r f i i • i C 
 
 de Vtil. Crelc.7. Scriptura fnmmk changeable good , and believed for 
 
 di/fofuione Vrovidcntu fuper cmnes Infallible Verity, This periwafion 
 
 omnium gentium Liter as i om»ia^bi ^ hayc beene wroug h c m 
 
 men of all forts,but by working up- 
 on their %eafon y unlefle wee lhall 
 thinke all the VVorld unreafonable , 
 that received it. And tinly God 
 did not give this adn .x le faculty 
 of %eafoning to the fou man, for 
 any caufc more prime then this , ver , or to 
 
 Lr Judge and alloy? (within the Sphere o •> . tme A&i- 
 Uty, and not prefuming farther) & . : way to 
 
 Himfelfe 
 
 genera ingeniorum humanorum < T)u, 
 vink Excellent <1 uthoritatc fubje • 
 cit . S. Aug. 11. de Civit . Dei t c.i. 
 At in omni or be t err arum, in omni 
 Gracia, & ' univerfu Nationibus jn* 
 numeri Cunt. & immenfi^ui reliciis 
 Patriis Legibus.&c. ad obfervmti- 
 am Mofu, & Chri/H. &c. Origcn. 
 4. d^v.caf I. 
 
 as; 
 
 *»/#> 
 
 
> 
 
 f 1 6 . . ' J9 
 
 \ 
 
 Himfelfe, when and howfoever itfhouldbcedif- 
 covered. 
 
 One great thing that troubled % ationall men , was u m, i 8 . 
 
 that which Humbled the Manichce ( an Herefieit 
 was,but more then hzVcTagan) namely. That fome - 
 what muft he believed jbeftre much could he faiowne. Wile 
 men ufe not to believe, but what they know : And 
 
 the Ma?iichcee* fcorned the OrtUdox Chriflian : as *xrriderelnc 
 li^btof Deliefe, promifing to leade no Difciple after thoiicaFkeidi- 
 him,but upon evident knowledge. This Humbles f e ¥ ina ^ HO fy^ 
 many ; but yet the Principle, 1 bat Jome'&hat mujt res credere , non 
 he believed before much can hefoioV>ne, Hands firme in 
 eajon Hill. For if in all Sciences there be fome ?V*«- ^,^'14. 
 ctples 3 which cannot be prooved ; if %eafon be able 
 to fee this, and confefleit -if almofl all Artifs have 
 granted it, if in the Mathematicks , where are the Ex- 
 adeflDemonflrations, there be Qu^dam poftulata ; 
 fome things to be firft Demanded, and granted, be 
 fore the Demonfl ration can proceed : Who can juflly 
 deny that to Divinity , A Science of the FJighefl Oh\eEl 5 
 God Himfelfe,which he eafily and reafonably grants 
 to infenour Sciences , which are more within his 
 reach ? And as all Sciences fuppofe fome Principles 
 without prooving j fo have they almofl all, fome 
 Text, home Authority , upon which they rely in fome 
 meafure : and it is^eafon they fhould. For though 
 thefe Sciences make not their Text; Infallible, 2s Divi- 
 nity doth j yet full confent and prudent Examinati- 
 on , and long continuance , have wonne reputation 
 to them, andfetled rtputation upon them, very de- 
 fer vedly. And were the fc Texts more void of Truth, 
 then they are , yet it were fit , and reafonable to up- 
 hold their credit, that Ifovices, and young Begin- 
 ners in a Science , which are not able to workc 
 flrongly upon T^eafon , nor %eaf<m upon them, may 
 
 have 
 
Bo 
 
 as 
 Isrs 
 heart 
 life , 
 them. 
 
 N u m. ip. 
 
 §• 16. 
 
 have Authority to believe, till they can learne to Con- 
 , , „ elude from principles andfoto 
 
 *And therefore S. Aug. e. ae Doot . 1 • I ir r 1 1 • 
 
 Chrift . c. 8. would have men make kllOW. IS tills 3110 rcajon.ible 111 
 
 thcmiclvcs perteet in reading the Let- os; [ 1£r Sciences and fhall it not be 
 underftood it. £asnot<is habeat , etfi lo in Tbeologte, to have a a 
 
 ncnditmintclltQu , tamer UStone dun- Scribtu r e a'3(«/e, which Novices 
 
 Sl3!rS.to! may be taught firft to believe, that 
 Schoole-Mafters make their Schoi- fo they may after come to the 
 
 s connc^ S £ir therr knowledge of thofe things which 
 
 ncart, that they may be ready for their # p . . . & , L T - 
 
 ufe , when they better underftand out 01 this neb 'Principle ^ and 1 rca - 
 
 fure are Deduceable ? I yet fee not 
 how rifit b^eafon can deny thefe Grounds j and if it 
 cannot , then a meere Naturall man may be thus 
 farre convinced pi hat the Text of Cedis ay try Credible 
 Text. 
 
 Well , thefe are the foure wayes , by moft of 
 which ? men offer to proove the Scripture to bee the 
 Word of God 7 as by a Divine and Infallible Warrant . 
 Aiuftit feemes, no one of thefe doth it alone. The 
 Tradition of the prefent Church is too weake., be- 
 caufe that is not abfolutely Divine. The Light which is 
 in Scripture it jelfe, is not bright enough^ it cannot 
 bearefufficientwitneffeto itfelfe. The Teftimonie of 
 the Holy Ghojl , that is moft infallible, but ordinarily 
 it is not fo much as confiderable in this Queftion , 
 which is not, how , or by what meanes we believe , 
 but how the Z cripture may be propofed as a Cre- 
 dible OhjeEi , fit for Belie fe. And for %CaJonps^p man 
 experts 3 that that fihould proove itj itdprhfervice 
 enough, if it enable us to di/prooveThil which mifi 
 guided men conseive againft it. If none of thefe 
 then be an Abfolute and f ufficient meanes to prove 
 it, either we muft finde out another, or fee what can 
 be more wrought out of thefe. And to all this again 
 A.C.hyes nothing. 
 
 For 
 
 
 f 
 
20 . 
 
 L 1 ( 5 . 
 •» 
 
 For the Tradition of the Church then , ccrtaicc Nbm 
 it is, wee mufl diftinguifh the Church , before 
 wee can judge right o£gfac Validity of the Tra- 
 dition. For if the fpecch ofeepr the Prime Qhri- 
 flian (lurch , the Apofiles , Dijaples , and fuch as 
 had immediate Revelation from Heaven ; no quelli- 
 on , but the Voyce and Tradition of this Church is 
 Divine, not altquo mo.lo , in a fort, but fimply ; and 
 the Word of God from them, is of like Validity , 
 
 Written, or delivered. And againllthis Tradition {of 
 which kinde this , That ti’C Pook.es of Scripture are 
 the Word of God , is the moll general! and uni- 
 forme ) the Church of England never excepted. 
 
 And when S. t Augufline laid 1 would 
 not believe the Gofpell, unlejje the Jittho- conK c _ ? - 
 
 rity of the Catholike Qkurcb mooved mee Ego ver 'o non crederem Evange» 
 (which Place you urged ac .he Confe- 
 
 rence , though you are now content 
 to Aide by it ) fome of your owne will 
 not endure ihould be underltood, lav e 
 * of the Church in the time of the Apofiles 
 only : and 3 fome of the Church in Generali , 
 not excluding after-ages. But fure to 
 include Chrift and hi s ApoHles. And 
 the certainety is there 5 abundance 
 of certainety in it ielfe : but how 
 farre that is evident to us ? ihall after 
 appeare. 
 
 But this will not ferve your turne. The Ira - 
 ditioti of the prefent Church mult bee as Infal- 
 lible, as that of the Primitive. But the con- 
 trary to this is prooved * before , becaufe this 
 Voyce of -the prefent Church , is not /imply 1 )i- 
 vine. Xo what end then ferves any Tradition of 
 
 the prefent Church ? To what? Why to a very 
 
 M good 
 
 * Occham .Dial. p. 1. L. i. c. 4* 
 Intelligiiur folnm do Ec cleft* 
 qu* fuit temp on Apoft Jorum. 
 
 * Bid. Utt t % ». w C. Ajjfo. A 
 temper a {fhrifti & Ap oft alarum ' 
 And £> doth S. Amuftxdki 
 EcclefC entra Fund, « 
 
 N u 
 
 Mi 
 
 2l. 
 
 * §.i£.A 7 #. 6 Z 
 
 •i - *■ 4 
 
/ 
 
 8z 
 
 16. 
 
 f 
 
 ft 
 
 D 
 
 ood end. For firff, it ferves by a full confentto 
 worke upon the mindes of unbelievers , to move them 
 to reade, and to confider the Scripture, which ( they 
 he are by To many Wife 5 Learned 7 and Dcvoute men) 
 is of no meaner efteeme then the Word of God. And 
 fecondly, It ferves among 2s[ovices, Weaklings^ and 
 Doubters in the Faith , # to inltrudt, and confirme 
 them, till they may acquaint themfelves with, and 
 underhand the Scripture 7 which tha Church de- 
 livers as the Word of God. And thus againe home of 
 your owne underhand the fore-cited Place of S. Ah - 
 
 ♦ She Infideles , five in Fide Novi- Srf™ , 1 ^ 0uU n0t lell(Ve the Gt I fall , 
 
 tii. Can. Loc. l. a. e. s. Neganti , zsre. * For hefpeakes it either of No- 
 vices, or Doubters in the Faith orelfe 
 of fuch as were in part Infidels . You 
 at the Conference (though you omit 
 it here) would needs haveit, that 
 S. ^Augujline Jpake even of the t faithfull 3 
 
 For he 
 
 aut omnin'o nefeienti Scripturam. 
 
 Sea pi. Relet 7 . (font. 4. q. 1, zA.q. 
 f ffuid ft fateamur Eidcle setiam , 
 
 8 c c left*. Author it ette ccmmoveri , ut 
 Scriptures recipient: Non tamcn in- 
 de fequitur eos hoc modo penitus per • 
 ft ader i : aut nulla alia fortioreque 
 
 rationc induct ? ffiuis autem Chri- 1 • f r ‘ * i-i 
 
 efi , quern Ecclefia (fhrifii , ' r - ch I CaiinOt yet third 
 
 / ^ f • si • C 1 1 1 • T 
 
 ftianus 
 
 j ' - ^ r. . w • r m. -m 1/ y v t/ ^ . rr ^ tvv r . j ^ — 
 
 common dans Script ur am chrifii , lpeakes to the Mankhees,ana they had 
 faerd Script ur a. (fontro. \.q 5 . ^ grea part of the Infidell in them. 
 
 “ ~ ‘ And the words immediately before 
 
 thefe, are , If thou fhouldeji jinde one, 
 Qui Evangelio nondum credit, 
 which did not yet believe the Gofpell, what 
 Ttouldejl thou doe to make him believe ? 
 *Ego verb non, Truly IvohM not y &cc.So 
 to thefe two ends it ferves, and there 
 Aimain. in 5 . Dijt. i^ Conctuf 6. need beno Queftion between us. But 
 
 for thif,he falfifies S noto- 1 every thm & ,that IS the firjl In - 
 
 rioully, and reads that known place, ducer tO beliCVC , is 110 1 by and b Tr A * 
 
 ”>2 
 
 Auguflinus y Evangelio non Credere t (tnd Idjl Qbjefl of Deliefe, UpOll which 
 
 m v r r eft , his F f h : . VnlelFe we 
 
 reads it, JnDtelertit. writ Mum a rnt inallbe Ot b LtCObtiS AlttWtl S Opinion; 
 
 That 
 
 c. 8 .vbi citat locum hunc y S. Aug. 
 a Et ibid, gfiutbus obtemperavi de- 
 cent i bus (fredite Evangelio . There- 
 fore he fpeakes ofhiaifelfe, when 
 he did not believe. 
 
 • Ccrtum efi quod tenemur credere 
 omnibus contends in Sacro Canone } 
 quia Ecclefia credit ex ea ratione fo- 
 ld. Ergo per prius & magis tenemur 
 Credere Ecclefia , qudm Evangelio. 
 
 clh 
 
 
 I ' 
 
in Corp. Ch. Col ledge Library in 
 Cambridge, the words ar t,Ni/t me 
 ccmmoveret. &c. 
 
 c Canus L. 2 ,de Leris c. 8. fo.^ 4. b, 
 
 §. 1 6 % Kumj6 % 
 
 §. 16 8 } 
 
 . *“ v t + 
 
 Thai we are per prius & mans, firft cr Aenda Jnnt. ef a fart, i p.^u.§j 
 
 and more bound, to believe the 3- But "'^ m ofta„c, C mM 1 „u(a,pc 
 
 * * 
 
 Church , then the GofpdL Which your 
 own Learned men, as you may lee by 
 c MeL Cams, reje&as Extrcamefoule, 
 and fo in deed it is. The firft know- 
 ledge then (after the QuidNominis is knowne by 
 Grmmer ) that helpes to open a mans underftanding, 
 and prepares, him to bee able to Demonftrate a 
 Truth, and make itevident,is his Logicke: But when 
 he hath made a Vemonfiration , he rcfolves the know- 
 ledge of his Conclufion , not into his Grammatically 
 or Logic all Principles^buc into th e Immediate Principles 
 out of which it is deduced ; So in this Particular, a 
 man is probably led by th z Authority of the prefent 
 Churches by the firft informing, inducting, per [wading 
 Meanes, to believe the Scripture to be the Word of 
 God : but when he hath ftudied, confidcrcd, and 
 compared this Word with icfelfc , and with other 
 Writings, with the helpe of Ordinary Grace, and a 
 minde morally induced , and reasonably perfwa- 
 ded by the Voyce of the Church ; the Scripture then 
 gives greater, and higher reafons of Credibility to it 
 ielfe, then Tradition alone c ould give. And then he 
 that Believes, refol ves his laft and full Aflent , That 
 Scripture is of Divine ^Authority , into inter nail Arguments 
 found in the Letter it felfe, though found by the 
 Helpc and Dire&ion of Tradition without , and Grace 
 Tfithin. And therefolutionthatis rightly grounded, 
 may not endure to pitch , and reft it felfeupon the 
 
 Helpes, but upon 'hat Divine Light , d <p //4t , 9 . I0 , ; Saturn Seri- 
 which the Scripture , no Queftion , p tur arum Lumen , S. Aug. L.deve* 
 hath in it felfe, but is not kindled, till ra Rell &' c ' 7 ‘ 
 
 1 r rn ^1 1 - r . , , varum vams umbris f &c- S. Aug. 
 
 thcl e Helps com e. i by word ts a Light d : LJe cMor. Seel. CathoU. 35. ‘ 
 
 fo David. A Light ? Therefore it is as 
 
 ” ~ ^ M 1 
 
 much 
 

 $ 
 
 * I COI. 2. I4. 
 
 much manifejlativumfui, as alter ius , a manifeftation 
 ro it felfe , as to other things which it fhewes : but 
 ftillj not till the Candle be Lighted • not till there hath 
 beene a Preparing Inftru&ion, Wl?at Light it is. Chil- 
 dren call the Sunne , and Moo;ie y Candles j Gods Candles : 
 They fee the light as well as men, but cannot diftin- 
 guifh betweene them, till fome Tradition, and Educa - 
 tion 3 hath informed their eafon . And * animalis homo , 
 the naturall man fees fome Light of\fcral! conn fell, and. 
 inftru&ion in Scripture, as well as Believers 5 Bu he 
 takes all that glorious Luftre for Candle-light , and can- 
 not diftmguiih betweene the Suitne, and twelve to the 
 (Pmndftill 1 radition of the Cnurch , and Gods Grace 
 put to it, have cleared his underftanding; So Tradin' 
 on of the prefent Church , is the fir ft Morall Motive 
 to Beliefe. But the Beliefe it felfe, T hat the Scripture is 
 
 fOrig. 4 . 'afe*' et^v.c, 1. went ^h? 'fTord of G d, reffs t upon the Seri- 
 this way, yet was he a great deale pture , when a r \an findesit to anfaer 
 
 SEKfiSgaft “‘‘““'"J 1 • lat iVvhichthcChii,ch 
 
 gave in Teltim my, as will after ap r 
 pcarc.And as ii the Voyceofthe Pri- 
 mitive, and A oftolicall C hurch 
 there was a fin oly Divine Authority , 
 delivering the Scripture , as Gods 
 Word ; io, aft r Tradition of the 
 prefent Qmrcbh th taught, and in- 
 formed the Sou , theVoyceofGod 
 
 fe > much more (hall it be in ^Deum^ : c n |,,: n f v L~ nr o • ' - A ,tr 
 
 then inprafentem JEccleJiamimd in- f ^ / flpture it J elf 6. 
 
 to the writings of the Apoftles,then And then heres louble Authority 
 
 Scriptures were inlpired from God, 
 he faithjDi? hoc afsignabimus ex ip - 
 fis r Divinis Scriptur is, qua nos com - 
 petenter moverint , &c. 
 
 * Trincipalitcr tam:n( etiam & hie ) 
 credimus propter r Deum , non Apo- 
 fi olo s , &c . Henr . a Gand . Sum, si , 9 . 
 q. 5. Now J if where the Apoftles 
 themfelves fpake, ultimata refolutio 
 Fideivvas in Deum , not inipfos per 
 
 into the words of their SuccefTors, Dxvir 
 
 made up into a Tradition. . . 
 
 pture to be the 
 dition of the Apoftles delivering it : 
 and argument in the Scripture , ob 
 by the pref mt Cbmhes Tradition, an 
 
 latconfirmcs Scri- 
 ed of God, Tra - 
 i the internall worth 
 s to a foule prepared 
 ods Grace. 
 
 The 
 
§.i6. 
 
 S 5 
 
 * « . w 
 
 The Difficulties which are pretended again# Num. 22. 
 this,.are not many, and they will eafily vanifli. For 
 firfi, you pretend, we go to Private Revelations for 
 Light to know Scripture. No, we do not, you fee it is 
 excluded out of the very ftate of the Queftion : and 
 we goto theTradition of the prefent Church, and by it, 
 as well as you. Here we differ . we ufe the Tradi- 
 tion of the prefent Churches the fir ft 
 Motive not as the Laft Ref elution of d Ca I v ' ^ 2 ‘ 
 
 OU1 Faith# VvC ReJolVe onely into Apoflolomm predication^ initio fun- 
 d Prime Tradition Apoftolicall, and ubicHru i ue re P en£tur 
 
 ~ . . r i r L > JJottnnrty &c. 
 
 Scripture it leire. 
 
 Secondly, you pretend, we do not, nor cannot Num. 23. 
 know the prime Apoftolicall Tradition, but by the Tra- 
 dition of the prefent Church- and chat therefore, if the 
 Tradition of the prefent Church be not Gods un- 
 
 written Word , and Divine , we cannot yet know 
 Scripture to be Scripture , by a Divine Authority. 
 
 Well r Suppolc I could not know the prime Traditi- 
 on to be Divine, but by the prefent Church , yet it 
 doth not follow , that therefore I cannot know 
 Scripture to be the Word of God by a Divine Autho- 
 rity; becaufe Divine Tradition is not the foie, and one- 
 ly meanestoprovek. For fiippofe, I had not T nor 
 could have full affurance of Apoftolicall Tradition Li- 
 ving; yet the morall perfwafion, reafon, and force 
 of the prefent Church, is ground enough to move 
 any realbnable man, that it is fit hefhould read the 
 Scripture , and efteeme very reverently and highly 
 of it. And this once done, the Scripture hath then 
 In, and Home -Arguments enough to put a Soule, that 
 hath but ordinary Grace, out of Doubt , That Scrip- 
 ture is the Word of God, Infallibleand Divine. 
 
 Thirdly ,you pretend, that we make the Scripture k UMj 
 abfblutely, and fully to be knowne Lumine juo } by 
 
 M 3 the 
 
2d 
 
 ' / 
 
 a And where 
 Hooker lifts thl 9 
 very Argument, 
 as he doth,L. 3. 
 §.8. his words 
 arenot,If there 
 bee Efficient 
 Light. But t if 
 that Light bee 
 Evident. 
 
 J 1 Cor.2.14. 
 
 1 
 
 Hcb.i 1.1J 
 
 1 6* 
 
 ' ■ * , 
 
 the Light and Teflimony which it hath /« , and 
 gives to it felfc. Againft this, you give reafon for 
 your felves, and proofe from us, Your Reafon is 
 If there be fuffic :nt Light in Scripture to fhei&it fdfe ? 
 then every ? an that can , and doth but read it, may how it 
 prefently to oe the Divine Word of God • which we fee by 
 daily experience , men neither do, nor can. Firfl it is not 
 abfolutely, nor univcrfally true. There is x fuff dent 
 Light; therefore every man may fee it. Blinde men 
 aremen, and cannot fee it . ind b fenfuallmeninthc 
 Apoftles judgement, are Rich: Nor may we deny, 
 and put out this Light, as infufficient , becaufe blinde 
 eyes cannot , and perVerfe eyes will not fee it . no 
 more then we may deny meat to be fufficient for 
 nourifhment, though men that are heart-ficke, can- 
 not eat it. Next, we do not fay. That there is fuch cl 
 full light in Scripture , as that every man upon the firft 
 fight muft yeeld to it; fuch Light as is found in 
 Prime Principles , Every whole is greater than a Tan of 
 the fame , and this. The fame thing cannot be, and not 
 le, at the fame time , and in the fame refpett. Thefe 
 carrie a naturall Light with them , and evident : 
 for the Temes are no fooncr underftood, then 
 the Trinciples themfelves are fully knowne , to the 
 convincing of mans underftanding , and fo they 
 are the beginning of knowledge; which, where it is 
 perfe&j dwels in full Light : but fuch a full Light 
 we do neither fay is, nor require to be in Scripture- 
 and if any particular man doe, let him anfwer for 
 himfelfe. The Qucftion is, onely of fuch a Light m 
 Scripture , as is of force to breed faith , that it is the 
 Word of God; not to make a perfett knowledge J 
 Now Faith , of whatfoever it is, this or other 
 Principle, is an Evidence\ as well as and 
 
 the Peliefe is firmer then any Knowledge can be, 
 
 *becaufe 
 
 
w. 
 
 §. 1 6. 
 
 becaufe it refts upon Divine Authority , which cannot 
 deceivejwhercas Kjiowledgcf or at lead he that thinks 
 heknowes) isnotevercertaincin Deductions from 
 Principles? t But the Evidence is not fo deere : For 
 it is c of things not feene , in regard of the Objedl 3 
 and in regard of the 
 Subject tliac,fees,it is in 
 4 cenigmate , in a Glafte, 
 or darke fpeaking. 
 
 Now God doth not 
 require a full Demon - 
 Jlrative Knowledge in 
 us,that the Scripture is 
 his Word, and there- 
 fore in his Providence 
 hath kindled in it no 
 Light for that, but he 
 requires our Faith of 
 it, and fticha certaine 
 Demotif ration , as may 
 fit that. And for that, 
 he hath left diffident 
 Light in Scripture to 
 eafon , and Grace 
 meeting, where the 
 foule is morally prepa- 
 red by the Tradition of 
 the Church ; unlefle you 
 be of Bellarmine’s c O- 
 pinion. That to betieVe 
 there are any Divine 
 Scriptures, is not omni- 
 no necejjary to Salvation* 
 
 The Authority which you pretend againft this,is 
 out of a Hooker : Of things necejjary , the Very chief efi 
 
 is 
 
 i 7 
 
 Jrr.t t 
 / 
 
 -j- %,i 6 .Nu:l^-. 
 c Heb.i 1. 1. 
 
 A i (ftor.ij. 12. kndJ. C. confefles.p. 5 2 - That this 
 very thing in Queltion may be known infallibly, when 
 ’tis knowne but obfcurely. Bt Scotusi^ 3, ^^.23 q. 
 I ftfol. 41. B. Hoc modo facile eft vide re quomodo d ides 
 efi cum snigmatc, & oblcuritate: ffna Habitus Ftdei 
 non credit &Ar tic ulum ejfe verum ex Evident id Obyblft 
 fed propter hoc^quod agent it veracitati inf undent is Habt- 
 tum, & in hoc revelantis Credibiha. 
 
 ' i t *1 " ' “ ** •/ t V 
 
 c Bellar./. 3 Ecckfc.iq. (fredcre nil M ejfe divines Seri - 
 pturas, non efi omnino neceffarium ad [aim cm. 1 will not 
 breake my Difcourfe } to rifle thi? fpeech of Be liar mine, 
 it is bad enough in the beft fenfe, that favour it ielfe can 
 give it. For if be meanc by omnino, that it is not alto~ 
 gether , or j (imply neceflary to believe there is Divine 
 Scripture, and a wricten Word of God ; that's falfe, 
 that being granted , which is among all Chriftian^ 
 That there is a Scripture: And God would never have 
 given a Supernaturall unneceflary thing. And if he 
 meanesby omnino y that it is no tin any wife neceflary, 
 then it is fenflbly falfe. For the greateft. upholders of 
 Tradition that ever were, made the Scripture very ne- 
 ceflary in all the Ages of the Church. So it was neccf- 
 fary, becaufe it was given ; and given , becaufe God 
 thought it neceflary. Befidcs, upon %$mane (grounds , 
 this I thinke will follow : That which the Tradition 
 of the prefent Church delivers,as neceflary to believe, 
 is omnino neceflary to falration : But that there arc 
 Divine Scriptures , the Tradition of the prefeut 
 Church delivers,as neceflary to believe : Theret’ore,to 
 believe there are Divine Scriptures, is omnino fbe the 
 Fenfe of the word what it can) neceflary to Salvation. 
 So Bellarmine is herein foule, and unable to (land upon 
 his ownc ground. And he is the more, partly, becaufe 
 he avouches this Proportion for truth after the 
 New Teftaraent written. And partly, becaufe he might 
 have feenc the ftate of this Propofition carefully exa- 
 mined by Gandavoy and diftinguifhed by Times. Sum. 
 p. I. t/f, 8. q. 4. fine, 
 
 Num. 25. 
 3 Lib. 1 , §,i‘4* 
 
is to know , what Boohes we are bound to etteeme Holy . 
 which Toint is confeffed impoftible for the Scripture it 
 fc Trottfi. Apt. felfe to teach* Of this L Prierly ( the Score- houfe for 
 r^.i. s.ie. allPricfls that will be idle, andyctfeeme well read ) 
 cl* j. §4. tels us, That c Hooker gives a very fen ftble 'Demon- 
 
 ftration : It is not tie Word of Cjod , which doth 5 or 
 pofibly can ajfure us 5 that wee doe well to thinks it is 
 His Word: for if any one ^Eooke of Scripture did 
 give Teftimony to all • yet ft ill that Scripture y which 
 giVeth credit to the reft , would require another to 
 give credit unto it. Nor could we ever com to any 
 paufe , to reft our affurance this way ; fo that un- 
 lejfe , befide Scripture , there were fame thing that 
 d L. 2. §.7. & might afture , & c . And d this he acknowledged (faith 
 z. 3 .§.8, GBrierly) is the ^Authority of Gods Church. Cer- 
 tainely, Hooker gives a true, and a fcnfible De- 
 monftration; but ‘Brierly wants fidelity ^ and inte- 
 grity 3 in citing him : For in the firft place, Hoo- 
 kers fpeech is. Scripture it f el fe cannot teach this ; 
 nor can the Truth fay, that Scripture it felfe can. 
 It mull needs ordinarily have Tradition , to pre- 
 pare the minde of a man to receive it. And in 
 the next place , where he fpeaks fo fenfibly. That 
 Scripture c annot bearc witneffe to it felfe j nor 
 one part of it to another ; that is grounded upon 
 Nature f which admits no created thing to bee 
 ‘S.loh.5.31. witneffe to it felfe,- and is acknowledged by our 
 He fpeakes of Saviour , c If 1 beare witneffe to my felfe , my witneffe 
 himjelfe as man. ^ trug , that is , is not of force to bee reafonably 
 
 s.ioh.8.13. accepted for Truth . But then it is more then ma- 
 nifeft , that Hooker delivers his Demonllration of 
 Scripture alone . For if Scripture hath another pr oofe, 
 nay many other proofes to uflher it, and lead it 
 in, thennoqueftion, it can both prove ; and ap- 
 prove it felfe. His words are , So that unlejfe , befides 
 
 Scripture 
 
 jl 
 
§• / 8p 
 
 Scripture , fWe £e, &c. Be fide s Scripture • therefore 
 he excludes not Scripture, though he call for ano- 
 ther Proofe to lead it inland help in afliirance^name- 
 ly , Tradition , which no man, that hath his braines 
 about him, denies. In the two other Places Brierly 
 falsifies fliamefu ly - for folding up all that Hooker 
 fayes, in thefe words , This (other meanes to allure 
 u$ belides Scripture ) is the Authority of Gods Church- 
 he wrinkles that Worthy AuthoHr delperately , and 
 fhrinkes up his meaning. For in the former place 
 abufed by Brierly \ no man can fet a better ftate 
 of the Queftion betweene Scripture , and Tradition, 
 then Hooker doth: a His words are thefe. The 3 Z. 2. §.7. 
 Scripture is the ground of our Belief e- The Authority 
 of man (that is the Name he gives to Tradition ) is 
 thelfey which opens the doore of entrance into the 
 knowledge of the Scripture . I aske now, when a 
 man is entred , and hath viewed a houle , and upon 
 viewing likes it, and upon liking relolves unchange- 
 ably to dwell there - doth he fet up his Refolution 
 upon the Ifey, that let him in ? No lure • but upon 
 the goodne[fe and Lommodioufnejjf which he fees in the 
 Houfe . And this is all the difference (that I know ) 
 betweene us in this Point 5 In which, do you grant 
 ( as you ought to do) that we refolvc our Faith into 
 Scripture , as the Ground • and we will never deny, 
 that tradition is the Kgy t hat lets us in. In the 
 latter place , Hooker is as plaine , as conftant to 
 himfelfe, and Truth: b His words are. The firflout- b Z.3.§,g* 
 ward Motive fading men fo to efleeme of the Scripture , is 
 the Authority of Gods Church See. But afterwards , 
 the more Wee beflow our Labour in readings or learn - 
 big the Myjleries thereof , the more wee finde that 
 the thing it felfe doth anfwer our received opinion 
 concerning it : fo that the former inducement prevailing 
 
 „ N fomewhat 
 
 
 k 
 
V 
 
 $>0 
 
 N 
 
 A. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 §. 
 
 U M. 2 6 , 
 
 C.p.51. 
 
 fomelohat Vpith us before, doth non? much more pre- 
 yaile , Token the Mery thing hath minijlred farther 
 %eafon. Here then againe, in his Judgement , 
 
 T radition is the firfi Inducement ; but the farther 
 %eafon , and Ground , is the Scripture. And r fe- 
 folution \f Faith ever fettles upon the Farthejl 
 fyafon it can , not upon the Firjl Inducement. 
 So that the State of this Queftion is firme , and 
 yet plaine enough , to him that will not fiiut 
 his eyes. 
 
 Now here after a long filence A. Q thrufts 
 himfelfe in againe , and tels me , That if 1 v?ould 
 confider the Tradition of the Church , not onely as it 
 is the Tradition of a Company of Fallible men , in 
 which fenfe the Authority of it (as himfelfe conieffes) 
 is but Humane, and Fallible , 8cc. But as the Tra- 
 dition of a Company of men afified by Chrifl , and 
 his Holy Spirit • in that fenfe 1 might eafily fin de it 
 more then an Introduction , indeed as much as Would 
 amount to an Infallible Motive. Well, I have con- 
 lidered The Tradition of the prefent Qmrch both 
 thefe wayes. And I finde that A . C. confelfes. 
 That in the firfl: fenfe, the Tradition of the Church 
 is meere humane Authority, and no more. And 
 therefore in this fenfe , it may ferve for an Intro- 
 duElion to this Belicfe , but no more, i .nd in the 
 fecond fenfe , as it is not the Tradition of a Com- 
 pany of men onely , but of men afiified by Chrifl , 
 and His Spirit : In this fecond fenfe I cannot finde, 
 that the Tradition of the prefent Church is of Divine 
 and Infallible Authority , till M. C. can prove. That 
 this Company of men ( the ^ omane Trelates , and 
 their Clergie he meanes) are Co fully, fe> cleerely , fo per- 
 manently afTIfted by Chrifl , and his Spirit, as may reach 
 to Infallibility , egf&fe feSfe to a Divine Infallibility , 
 
 in 
 

 \ 6 . 
 
 in this, or any other Principle, which they teach. 
 
 For every Affiance of Thrift , and the Bleffed Spirit, 
 is not enough to make the Authority of any Com- 
 pany of men Diyine , and infallible * but fuchand 
 To great an t Afiiftance onely , as is purpofely gi- 
 ven to that effect. Such an Affiance the ^Pro- 
 phets under the Old Teftament , and the Apo- 
 Hies under the New had * but neither the High-* 
 
 ‘Triefl with his Clergie in the Old , nor any Com- 
 pany of ‘Prelates , or Priefts in the New , fince 
 the Apo flies ever had it. And therefore , though 
 at the entreaty of A.Q I halve conftdered this very 
 well,* yet 1 cannot, no not in this t Afifted fenfe , 
 thinke the Tradition of the prefent Church, Diyine , 
 and Infallible , or fitch Company of men to be worthy 
 of Diyine, and infallible Credit , and (ufficient to breed in 
 m Diyine , and Infallible Faith , Which I am forrie 
 A . C. flhould affirme io boldly as he doth. What ? A. c.fi 
 That Company of men ( the fomane l Bi/hop , and his 
 Clergie) of Diyine and Infallible (/edit 3 and / uffici- 
 ent to breed in us Diyine , and Infallible Faith ? Good 
 God ! Whither will thefe men goe ? Surely they 
 are wife in their generation , but that makes them 
 never a whit the more the Children of light a ; S. Luke * S.Luke i£. 8. 
 io. And could they put this home upon the world 
 ( as they are gone farre in it ) what might they 
 not effed ? How might they , and would they 
 then Lord it oyer the Faith of Chriftendome, con- 
 trary to b S. Peter's Rule (whofeSucceffqurscertaixi- & j. S. Pct^.j. 
 ly in this they are not. ) But I pray, if this Compa- 
 ny of men be infallibly afifled y whence is it, that this 
 very Company have erred io dangeroufly , as they 
 have,notonly in iome other things, buteven in this 
 Particular, by equaling the Tradition of the prefent 
 Church to the written Word of God: Which is a DoFlrim 
 
 N z unknowns 
 
 j 
 
I 
 
 9 * 
 
 a S. Baft goes asfarrefor Traditions as any. For be fay es: 
 P aremvitnhabent ad pietatem.L.dc Sp.Santl.c.i'] ■ Blit firu, 
 be fpcaks of Apojlolicall Tradition , not of the T radii ion of the 
 Prefent Church. Secondly, the Learned take exceptions to 
 this Booke of S. Bafil , as corrupted. B P* Andr. Opu/c. cont. 
 Reron.p ,y. Thirdly, Ser t de Fide 3 profefles 
 
 that he ules fomtime? Agrapha,fed ea folttm qua non [tint ali- 
 eva d fid fecundum Script uram ftntentia. So he makes the 
 Scripture their Touch- ftone 3 or tryall And therefore mult of 
 Neceflity make Scripture fuperior,in as much as that which 
 is able to try another, is of greater force, and fuperiour Dig- 
 nity iuthatufc, then the thing tried by it* And Stapleton 
 himfclfcconfeffes,T raditmem recentiorcm & pefierierem , ft- 
 cut & particulars , nulla modo cum Script urd, vcl cumTra - 
 ditionibns prius d fc explicates comparandam ejfe. Stapleton. 
 Re left : ('ontrj'v. A. 2. 
 
 N U M. 27. 
 Afi.p. 52. 
 
 §. 16* 
 
 unknowneto die 
 a Primiti ye ( bitrch, 
 and which frets 
 upon the very 
 Foundation it felfe, 
 by juft ling with ir. 
 So belike, he that 
 hath buthalfe an 
 indifferent eye , 
 may lee this A fit- 
 fled Company have 
 erred, andyeewe 
 
 mud wink in obedience, and think them Infallible. 
 
 But \A. C. would have me confider againe , That 
 it it as eafie to take the Tradition of the prefent Church 
 in the two fore-named fenfes , as the prefent Scriptures 
 printed y and approved by men of this Age . For in the firfl 
 fenfe, The Very Scriptures (faith he) confidered at prin- 
 ted, and approved* by men of this Age, can be no more 
 then of Humane Credit. But in the fecond fenfe , at 
 printed and approved by men afiifled by God’s Spirit for 
 true (opies of that which was firjl written , then we may 
 give Infallible Credit to them. Well* I have confidered 
 ^ this too. Audi can take the Printing, and Appro- 
 ving the Copies of Holy-Writ in thefe two fenfes. And 
 I can, and do make a difference betweene Copies 
 printed and approved by meere moral! mtn 3 and men 
 afiifled by Gods Spirit. And yet for the Printing one- 
 ly, a skilful and an able morall man may doe better 
 lervice to the Church, then an illiterate man, though 
 afiifled in other things by God’s Spirit. But when I 
 have confidered all this, what then? The Scripture 
 being put in writing, is a thing vifibly cxiftent • and 
 4. Ex s. Aug. if any errour be in the Print, ’tis eafiiy corrigible by 
 * former Copies . Tradition is not fo eafiiy obferved. 
 
 
 nor 
 
I 
 
 §. 16. 9 i 
 
 nor fo fafcly kept. And howfoever, to come home 
 to that which A- C. inferres upon it,namely, That the A% c 
 Trad high of the prefent Qhurch may be accepted in thefe 
 two jenfes : And if this be all that he will inferre (for 
 his penne here is troubled, and forfakes him, whe- 
 ther by any checke of Confluence, or no, I know 
 not ] I will , and you fee , have granted it already 
 without more adoe, with this Qaution , That every 
 Company of men affifted by Gods Spirit, are not at 
 filled to this height, t&be Infallible by Divine m Authority . 
 
 For all this A. C. will needes give a ncediefle ^ U M§ 
 Proofe of the Bufineflfe: Namely That there is the fro- a % C-MSr 
 mife of Chnfis,and his Holy Spirits continuall prefence y and 
 aj ft fiance, S. Luke 10. 1 6. Mat. 2,8. ip y 10. Ioh 14. \ 6 < 
 not only to the Apo files, but to their Succefiors afo y the law - 
 fully fent Pajlors y and D otters of the (fhureb in all Ages. 
 
 And that this fromtft e is no leffe , but rather more exprefy 
 to them in their f reaching hy word of mouth , then in wri- 
 ting , cr reading, or printing 9 or approoving of Copies of 
 what was formerly written hy the Apofiles. And to all this 
 I (hall briefly fay, That there is a fromife of Chrijis 
 and the Holy Spirits continual J prefence , and adw 
 dance, I do likewife grant mofl freely, that this Tro- 
 mife is on the part of Chrft, and the Holy Ghoft , mod 
 really and fully performed. But then this Promife 
 miift not be extended further then ’twasmade. It 
 was made of Continualtfrcknce, and affidance^ That 
 I grant 3 And it was made to th q Apofiles , and their 
 Succtffors;! hat I grant too. But in a different Degree. 
 
 For it was of Continuall , and Infallible Afi fiance to the 
 Apojlles • But to their Succejfors of QontimdlAnd fitting 
 ajfiflancefbut not Infallible. And therefore the lawfully 
 fent Paftors and Doctors of the Church in all Ages^ 
 have had, and (hall have Continuall Afi fiance but by 
 A. C\ leave, not Infallible , at lead, not Divine and Jn- 
 
 N 3 fallible, 
 
H 
 
 §. 16. 
 
 * Nam mult a fmt Dccretales harreticx , ficttt 
 dicit OchamJEt frmiter hoc Credo , fed non licet 
 do^matizare Oppojitum , quoniam funt determi- 
 nate, nifi manifefie conflet &c. Ia.Almain. in 
 J. Sent- C D.7 4 ,^. mica. Concluf 6.Dub 6 fine . 
 and Aifbon. d Caflro alfo both fayes and 
 prooves s Caleftinum Papam erraffe, non ut pri - 
 vat am Perfonam, fed ut Papam. L 1. adverf. 
 FLer.c 4. and the Glofie Confeflfes. Bum err are 
 peffs infaq.q.i.C. A %jblaergo. 
 
 \ 
 
 fallible, either in writing, reading, printing^r ap- 
 proving Copies, And I believed C is the firit, that 
 durfl: affirme this,* I thought he would have kept the 
 P opes Prerogative intire,that He only might have been 
 Infallible ,* And not He neither, but in (fatbed> a fate 
 down and well advifed. And well Advtfed : Yes^thafs 
 
 righc, * But he may be fate, 
 and not well Adviled , even 
 in Cathedra, ^nd now, (hall we 
 have all the Lawfully fent Pa- 
 flors,and Do Bars of that Church 
 in all ages Infallible tool Here’s 
 a deale of lnja.it ility indeed, 
 and yet error ftore. The 
 truth is, the hfuites have a 
 Moneths mindeto this Infa'liuility^ And though A . C. 
 
 1 our of his bounty is content to extend it to all the law- 
 
 fully fent PaUors of the Church •* yet to his owne Society 
 queftionlefle he meanes it chiefly. As did the Jpo'.o- 
 gtH to whom Cafaubonteplycs, to Pronto 'Ductus. The 
 
 words of the f sfpologiH are. 
 
 t Nembfie qnidemiefmam^ Let day and night life and 
 
 atq-adco ejje hoc micum'iv cLJ'vv6LTuv 3 caterts,cfH* i i j j r J 
 
 folent k Poetic piunma commemorari , pojieac death be joyned tog eth errand then 
 
 annumcrandnm, Jinefcu 3 mi Fronto, cfputone- 1 ” r 
 
 fcfre 3 docebote,Ab <^fpologtfta doffus, hocipfum 
 difertis verbis affirmante. Sic ille cap.^.Fjus ex - 
 emplaris quod ad Sereniff. Tfegem fuit mi fid m 
 pagina. up. Iungantur in nnum,^> } dies cum 
 noftejtcncbrs cum luce,caliaum cum frigido, 
 fanitas cum morbo > vita cum morte : &erit 
 turn fpes aliquapoflc in caput Iefuita? hacrefin 
 cadcre. Ifa, Cafaubon. Fp. ad Front, Due turn, 
 
 Lond.\6l\. 
 
 
 
 there will be fame hope , that He- 
 rejte may fall upon theperfon of 
 a lejuite . Yea marry , this is 
 fomething indeed. Now wc 
 know where LifJlil ility is to 
 be found. But for my prelent 
 Occafion , touching the 
 Lawful! y fent Palfors of the 
 Church See. I will give no ocher Confutation of it, 
 then that M. Fijher and A , Q. ( if they be two 
 men ) are lawfully fent Pajlors and Dollars of the 
 Church j at leafl: 1 am fure, they’ll a flume they are, and 
 
 yet 
 
 

 95 
 
 yet they are not Infallible ; which, I thinks, appcares 
 plaine enough in ionic of their crrois manuelled 
 by this Diicourfe,and eliewhere. Or if they do hold 
 themfelves Infallible, let them fpeakeit out, as the 
 
 Apologilf did. , 
 
 As for the Three Places of Scnpture, which Num. 19. 
 
 A. C. cites ,they are of old alledged, and well knowne A - C-P-n- 
 in this Controverfte. The l irjl is in S. Luke 10. S.Lukio.iS. 
 where Chrift faith, Be that btaretbyou, beareth me. This 
 was abfolutel] true in the a Apoftlet, who kept them- 
 felves to that, which was re- a Per quod docet quic quid per San cl os dpcftolcs 
 
 voaledbv Chrift . But it was dicituTy acccptandum e(fe , quia quiUlos audit, 
 
 . 1 \ r jy^JLfmpin Chrifium audi^&ciS. Cy rillus.At T>ominus dc- 
 
 tO be but Conaittona ly </;> Apoftolis fuis poteftatem Evangelii, per quo s 
 
 their k Succefjors Tie that hear - & Ventatem , ideft, c Eei Eilium cognovimus 
 
 j j Tin or ic fn Quibus & dixit ‘DominuSy Jgui ves audit 
 
 ethyou, beareth me. 1 hat is lo ^ fe neus;nc/(!f> , n L . 3 . ad£j. tUr.fi,*. 
 
 long, and lo ^ *> rOicit ad rtpofio/os, ac fcr hoc adOmr.es TV*- 
 
 c fpeak my words 3 and notjowr pofitoSyqui tsfpoftolis vie aria Ordinatione ftucce - 
 
 (fton Bor d where the Com- dunt. S . Cyprian.Z. 4. Epift.9. But S. Cyprian 
 
 ' . r n- l Inrr doth not fay, that this fpeech of cur Saviours 
 
 matld IS ror 1 leaCilulg* cne was aqualiter diUum , alike and equally Ipo- 
 
 ■R Mhrfint is added.' Go (faith ken andpromifed to the Apoftles,and the fuc- 
 
 (l\ 1 tonrl nUl'Jatinm ceeding Bifliops. And 3 believe A. C. will 
 
 Chnu) and te^ch all J\at . n0t( j arc t o lay in plaine and expreffeTermes, 
 
 But you may not preach all That this fpccch,He that heambyou hearetb n*e, 
 
 l- S 1 nWf» • hnr doth as amply belong to every %omane c JPrieft i 
 
 things whai you pieale , but astoS>p ^ an a tlcyipoftia. No, agreat 
 
 Al things winch IhaVe commanded dealeof Difference will become them well. 
 
 you • The Publication is youis, * g ec y ee flowers of me, even as lam of 
 the JD oElrine is mine i And chrift. i ^w.n.i. and 1 Ebeft.iA. 
 
 where the Doctrine is not ‘Andfo Vener. Eeda exprefly both for hear- 
 ts inq the word, and for contemning it. Fornei- 
 
 mme, there your Publicatm is £ ofthcfe (faiih /m } be]ong onIy {o [hcm 
 
 beyondjOr Ihort OI your L om- which faw our Saviour in the fldh ;but to all 
 r rU« arond Place is hodie qUiOqwfoxft with this limitation ; if they 
 
 mtfm Theiecend run is ^ £ defpife Ev ^ elii whll: ^ £ 
 
 m S. Matth. 20. 1 nere (^brij f p rcac h ers ownc, Beda, tnS. Luke 10. 15 . 15. 
 
 fay cs zgainc c 1 am^ith you aL . . . dc 
 
 ypayes unto the end of the Tbor/J. Yesjmoft certame it is, e 2%° 9 \ 
 
 prejentby his Spirit ; Bor elfein bodily prefence ee 20, 
 
 continued not with his dpoftles y but min^ ns 
 
 abode 
 
p6 §.id. 
 
 abode on Earth. And this Fromifeof hi s fpirituall 
 prefence was to their Succefjors ; cife, why to the 
 end of the world ? The A po files did not , could 
 
 not livefo long. But then to 
 
 * Rabanus Manr. goes no furrher, then that to 
 the End Tome will al waves bee in the world 
 iit for Chriftby his Spirit and Grace to inha- 
 bi ' : *Divink manftone & inhabit atione digni, 
 
 R o.in S .Mat.28.i9 ,20.P ergatis babentesD 0- 
 rinum ^Protedoremyfr c Dttcem\ aith S. Cypr, 
 
 4. Epifi. 1. But he doth not fay, Howfarre 
 forth. And loquitur Fide lib us ft cut mi Corpori. 
 
 S. Chryfoft. Homil. in S. tMatth. And if 
 S Chryfofi. inlargc it fo farre, I hope A. (f. let him (hew mec any One 
 
 will not extend ‘the Affiance given or pro- father of the Church, that 
 milcd here to the whole Body of the raith- 1 \ r r f 
 
 fall , to an Infallible, aud Divine Afliftance extends the leille Ot this 
 in every of them , as w T ell as in the Paftors and 
 Do £lors t 
 
 the * Succe/Jors } the Prom ife 
 goes no further, then lam 
 with you ahayes^which reach- 
 es to continuall afliftance y but 
 not to Divine, and Infallible. 
 Or if he think me miftaken. 
 
 * _ 
 
 In tills donvs quibus fains aliorum queritur 
 ilia funt Er<pi'etta, & interpretation's Ser • 
 >n &c.) Spiri us Sand us neqmquam fern- 
 y Pr indicator if s permanet. S . Greg. L. 2 . 
 
 t.c 2y.prin. 1 lit, Bafil. 1551* 
 
 Oil 
 
 Place to DiVme and Infallible 
 Afliftance , granted hereby to 
 all the Apoflles Succeflbrs. 
 Sure I am. Saint t Gregory 
 thought otherwi/e. Forhee 
 faies plainly , That in thofe 
 fts of God ivhich concern other mens f ah at ion ( of which 
 [ V reaching of the G of pell is One ) the Spirit of thrift, the 
 Holy Ghoft doth not alwayes abide in the Treachers y bee 
 they never fo lawfully fent Pallors , or Doctors of 
 the Church. Andif theHc/y Ghoft doth not alwayes 
 abide in the Treachers 3 then mofl certainly he doth 
 not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility alwayes. 
 s.lohn 14. 16. Th cThirdTlace is in S. John 1 4. where Chri ft fay es 
 The Comforter the Holy Ghoft ft? all abide with you for eVer y 
 Mofl true againe. For the Holy Ghoft did abide with 
 
 *Ifte Confolator non auferetur aVobisyftcutJub- ApoftleS according tO 
 
 trahitur Bumanitas meaner mortemfedtterna- thrifts Promife there made, 
 liter eritVobifcum, hteper Gratiam, infuturo . rL i j _L; i v 
 
 f crgiorUmXy^.inS P foh„^.x 6 , You fee ^ C ‘ lhalJ abide With their 
 there the Holy Ghoft fhal be prefent by Succeflo $ for ever, to * COin- 
 
 lation and Cj race, not by Infallible Afsiftance . fort and preferve them. Blit 
 
 here’s no Promife of Divine Infallibility made unto 
 
 them ' 
 
 / 
 
§. 1 6. 
 
 9 7 
 
 thefti. And for that Promife which is made, and 
 expiefly of Infallibility, Saint Iohn 16. ( though not SJ0b.1d.T3. 
 cited by C. ) That’s confined to the Apoftles 
 onely ^ for the fed mg of them in all Truth. And 
 yet not (imply all ; For time are fome Truths (faith 
 a Saint Auguftine ) which no 
 
 mans Soule can comprehend in 8 0mnsm Uatem 1 Non a f tr6r f n 
 this life. Not limply all .* But Auguttin. in S . loh . T raft. 96. verfusfin. 
 b all thofe Truths, qu<£ non *> SpiritusSanttus&c. qui eos doceret Omncm 
 poterant portare , which they ?"*«"» ■ v* m '"%• il i ^fTrl 
 
 werenotabieto beare, when s. Auguihn.Traa.97.inS.ioh.prin, 
 
 Hee Converfed with them. 
 
 Not (imply • but all that was neceffary for the 
 founding 7 propagating , eft ab l i filing , and Confirming 
 the Chriftian Church. But if any man take 
 the boldnefle to inlarge this Promife in the ful- 
 nefleof it, beyond the perfonsof the Apoftles them- 
 feiv s that will fall cut 
 
 1 . 1 c • r a L c Omnes vel infipientifsin i Haretici , qni fe 
 
 which Saint Auguftl 1 ChrijHartos vocari 'volunt , audadas figmen- 
 
 in 3. manner propheejed l Eve"’ torum fuorumfluas maxime exhorret fenfushn* 
 
 rv Heretic k. will Oielcer him- W *” HS • hac 
 
 X J : ’ . . . colorareconentnr.&c . S. Augulhn. T. 97. tn 
 
 feife 5 and his V unities un- s. loh .dreamed. 
 
 derthis Colour of Infallible 
 
 Veritte. 
 
 I told you a * little before, that A. C . his Num. 30, 
 Penne was troubled , and failed him : There- 
 fore I will he^pe to make cut his Inference for '^ ,sa * 
 him, that his Caufe may have all the llrength 
 it can. And ( as I conceive ) this is that hee 
 would have. The Tradition of the prefent Church 
 ts as able to 'to or he in us Divine and Infallible Faith , 
 
 That the Scripture is the Word of God •* dls that 
 the Bible (or Bookes of Scripture ) now printed 5 and 
 in ufe , is a true Copie of that , which "toas fir ft writ- 
 ten , by the Tenne-men of the Holy Ghoft 3 and de- 
 
 O li y Kred 
 
 
pS 
 
 Num, 31. 
 A.C.p. 53. 
 
 §6 l6 * 
 
 livered to the Church . Tis moft true, the Tra- 
 dition of the prefent Church is a like operative , and 
 powerfull in, and over both thefe workes : but nei- 
 ther DiYme , nor Infallible in either. But as it is the 
 firjl moraU Inducement to perfwade , that Scripture 
 is the Word of God } fo is it affo the firjt y bu t moraU 
 ftill , that the Bible wee now have ; is a true Copie 
 of that which was full written. But then as in 
 the former, fo in this latter for the true Copie, The 
 lift Gfiefolution of our Faith cannot pofhbly reft up- 
 on the naked Tradition of the prefent Church , but 
 mult by , and with it goe higher to other Helpes , 
 and c Affurances. Where I hope A. Q will confeffe, 
 wee have greater helpes todilcover the truth , or 
 fallhood ofa (fopie , then wee have meanes to looke 
 into a Tradition. Or eipccially to fifz cut this 
 Truth , that it was a Divine and Inf alii le Revelation , 
 by which the Originals of Scripture were firft writ- 
 ten : That being farre more the SuljtB of this A*- 
 quiry , then the Copie } which accoi ding to Art, and 
 Science may be examined by former preceding Co- 
 pies dole up to the very Apoftles times. 
 
 But A. C.hath not done yet • For jn the laft 
 place hce tells us , lhat Tradition , and Scripture, 
 Tbithout any vicious Circle , doe mutually confirms the Au- 
 thority either of other. And truly for my part , I 
 fhall eafily gram him this, fo hee will grant mee 
 this other. : Namely 5 That though they doe mu- 
 tually, yet they doe not equally confirfne the Au- 
 thority either of other. For Scripture doth infallrly 
 confirme the Authority of ChunhTraditions truly fo 
 called: But Tradition doth but morally and pro: ably 
 confirme the Authority of th c Scripture. And this 
 is manifeft by A . C s . owne Similitude , For ( faith 
 he) 3 tis as a Icings Embajfadors Word of month , and 
 
 . His 
 
 
99 
 
 6 . \ 6 . 
 
 7 * 
 
 His I\jngs Letters bears mutuall witneffe to each other „ 
 lull (o indeed. For HisKjngs Letters of Credence 
 under hand and leale, confirme the Embafladors 
 Authority Infallibly to all thac know Seale, and 
 hand ; But the Embajfadors word of' mouth con- 
 firmes His Icings Letters but onely probably. For 
 elfe, Why are they called Letters of Credence , if 
 they give not him more Credit , then hee can give 
 them ? But that which followes I cannot ap» 
 prove, to wit ? That the Lawfully fent Treachers 
 of the Oof pell are Gods Legats 5 and the Scriptures Gods 
 Letters 'which hee hath appointed his Legates to de- 
 liver ? and expound . So farre ns well, but here's 
 the filing. That thefe Letters doe warrant , that the 
 (people may he are , and give Credit to thefe Legats 
 of Chrijly as to Chrijt the King himfelfe. Soft, this 
 
 is tOO high a gt eat deale. No Legate * will u4.C.maintaine, that any 
 was ever of fo great Credit as the Kj n g Legate a Latere, is of as great 
 
 Himfelfe. Nor was any Priefi } never Crtcllt > as the Po P e t 
 fo lawfully fent , ever of that Authority , that 
 Cbrift himfelfe ; No fure, For yee callmee Mafier 9 
 and Lord , andyee doe "Well - for Jo I am 9 faith our 
 Saviour , S.Iohn 13. And certainly, this didnotfud- s * Iohn.13.i3i 
 denly dropout of A. C’ s . Penne. Forheetould us 
 once before, That this Company of men "Which deliver ... 
 
 the prefent Churches Tradition > ( that is the lawfully fent 
 Treachers of the Church) are af sifted by Gods Spirit to 
 have in them Divine md Infallible Authority , and to 
 bee Worthy of Divine and Infallible Credit , fufficient to 
 breed in us Divine , and Infallible Faith. "Why, but is 
 it pollible thefe men Ihould goe thus farre to defend 
 an Error , bee it never fo deare unto them ? They 
 as Chiift ? Divine , and Infallible Authority in 
 them } Sufficient to breed in us Divine , and Infal- 
 lible Faith > I have often heard fome wifemenfay, 
 
 O 2. ‘ Thac 
 
100 
 
 That the Iefuite in the Church of <%ome, and the <Prc~ 
 cife party in the Reformed Churches agree in many 
 things though they would feeme moft to differ.- 
 And furcly this is one For both of them differ ex- 
 trcamely about Tradition. The one in magnifying it, 
 and exalting it into Divine Authority ; The other vi- 
 lifying, and deprefling it almoft beneath Humane. 
 And yet even in thefe different wayes, both agree 
 in this conlequent ; That the Sermons a nd Preachings by 
 ■Word of mouth, of the lawfully fent Pafiors and DoBors of 
 the Church are able to breed in usDif ine and Infallible Faith j 
 
 Nay are the * every Word of 
 * For this A. C. (ayes exprefly of Tradition God. So A. exprefly. And 
 
 »» k® A/n/o. h*ve tome 
 
 made to the lawfully fcntPaftors and Dodors accounted of their OWnc/tf- 
 of the Church in all ages in their teaching by ft \ 0u5 ^ or ds (to fay no more) 
 
 word ofmouthsthenm writing, &c.p. 5 $. ) ^ . ' 
 
 f Far the freeing of factious and filenccd Mi- then as the i WOT a Oj Uod. I 
 nifters, i* termed, ^the %j$or>ngof g 0 ay Word cver too ^ e Sermons (and fo 
 , 10 its Liberty'S* the Godly Author ot the late ~ , n rf 
 
 NcmsfrJjtfyri'h t . 5 . doe itill ) to be molt necejja- 
 
 ry Expofitions , and applicati- 
 ons of Holy Scripture , and a great ordinary tneanes of 
 faying knowledge . But I cannot thinke them, or 
 the Preachers of them Viyinely Infallible. The An* 
 dent Fathers of the Church preached farre beyond 
 any of thefe of either faBion • And yet no one of 
 them durft thinke himfel fc Infallible ^ much lefle, that 
 whatfoever hee preached was th cVVordofGod. And 
 it may be Obferued too. That no men are more apt 
 to fay 3 That all the Fathers Ttere but Men y and might 
 Erre y then they that thinke their ownc preachings 
 are Infallible . 
 
 N u m; 32^ The next thing ( after this large Interpretation 
 5 o£/f. C. ) which I fhall trouble you with, is. That 
 
 this method, and manner of proving Scripture to bee 
 the Word of Sod, which I here ufe, is the. fame, which 
 
 the 
 

 8 And S. Aug. himfelfe L,i$,contr° 
 Fmfhun c , 5 . proves by an InternaU 
 Argument the fulfilling of the Pro- 
 phets. Script ur a ( faitu h c)qua fi m 
 dem fuam rebus ipfis pro bat per 
 temporum fuccefs tones bac impleri 3 
 &c. And H en, d Gaud. Par.i.Sum. 
 A.g,q.i. cites S.Aug. Book de vera 
 %jligione. In which Book, though 
 thefc Foure Arguments are not 
 found in T ermes together, yet they 
 fill up the fcopc of the whole Book* 
 
 : r 
 
 §. 1 6. , ; v 
 
 the Ancient Church ever held 7 namely, Tradition , or 
 Ecclejiajlicall Authority firft; and then all other Argu- 
 ments, but efpecially internail, from the Scripture it 
 felfe. This way the Church went in S .Hugufline's 
 a Time. He was no enemy to Church - 
 Tradition • yet when hee would 
 prove, that the Authour of the Seri* 
 pture (and lb of the whole know- 
 ledge of Divinity , as it is fuperna. 
 turallj is Dens in (Jmflo , God in 
 Chrift; betakes this as the All-luf- 
 ficient way , and gives foure proof es, 
 all internaU to the Scripture ; Firft, 
 
 The Miracles . Secondly, That there 
 is nothing carnall in the DoElrine . Thirdly , That there 
 hath been fuch performance of it . Fourthly, That by 
 Inch a Doctrine of Humility , the whole world almojl hath 
 leene converted . And whereas ad muniend&m Fidem, 
 
 for the Defending of the Faith, and keeping it en- b VupUci mod, 
 tire, there are two things requifite, Scripture , and mtSKiri fide &c. 
 Church-Tradition ; b Vincent. LirinenJ. places Authority 
 of Scriptures firft; and then Tradition, And fince it IS Tate, turn deinds 
 apparent, that Tradition is firft in order of time , it f ccleJ ™ c f tho ~ { 
 muft neceflarily follow, that Scripture is firft in ^nt.Uar.T.i. 
 order of Ifature , that is , the chiefe , upon which 
 Faith refts, andrefolvesitfelfe. And your owne 
 Schools confefles this was the way ever. The 
 Woman of a Samaria is a knowne Refemblance, *s.ioM. 
 but allowed by your felves: For w . 
 
 CjUOtldli , daily Vvitb them that, are ql. Sic efmtide apuditlos qui forts 
 without Chrift enters by the woman, that tntrati thrift super mulitrem, 
 
 - 7 ’ J 7 r t* r . i.Ecclefiam , & crednnt per if am 
 
 * the Church, and they believe by that f amam)&c ,GlofiKSjoh,cap^. 
 fame which fhe gives, See But when 
 they come to heare Chrift himfelfe, they believe his 
 words, before the words of the Woman* For when 
 
 i ! hc y 
 
 
\02 ij.1.6. 
 
 k ' . > 
 
 they ha-ve once found Chtifl, * they 
 do more belieVe his words in Scripture 
 then they do the Church , v>hich tejlijies 
 of him • becaufe then propter iilam, 
 rctj&c. Trim am fidcm tribuamm for the Scripture they believe the Chur chi 
 
 Script ur is Canonic if, fee undam fub 
 ilia , Definitiombm & (fonfuetudi- 
 nibtu Ecclefi* Catholic* 9 pofl iflas 
 /Indio fis viris non fub poena perfidi * , 
 fed protervi* 3 Crc. Walden. Dotl. 
 
 Fid, To, i. L,i, Art, 2 , c . 2 Elu, 
 
 c Ibid. Vim verbis Chrijli in Scrip- 
 turd credit , quant Ecclefi* tefiifican- 
 ti. Jpuia propter ill am jam credit 
 Fed eft*. Et ft ip fa quidem contra- 
 ria Scriptur * dicer et, ipft non crede- 
 
 Jnd if the Church Jhould j peake contra- 
 ry to the Scripture , they would net be- 
 lieve it. Thus the Schoole taught then- 
 And thus the GloJJe commented 
 then,- And when men have tyred 
 themfelves, hither they mull come. The Jfey y that 
 lets men in to the Scriptures, even to this knowledge 
 of them. That they are the Word of Cod, is the Tra- 
 dition of the Church : but when 
 *Infacrd Scripturdlpfe immediate fW are j n d Jjtfy hears Chrifl him - 
 
 •S.Xohn 10; 4. J el f e mmedtatel J fptahng in Scrip- 
 
 ture totheVaithfull : e And his Sbeepe 
 doe not onely he are , but know his Voice. And then 
 hetes no Vicious Circle indeed of prooving the 
 Scripture by the Church , and then round about, 
 the Churcn by the Scripture. Onely diftinguiflh 
 the Times , and the Conditions of men , and all is 
 lafe* For a Beginner in the Faith, or a Weaklings 
 or a Doubter about it, begins at Tradition , and 
 proves Scripture by the Church : But a man flrong 
 and groyne up in the Faith , and underfiandingly 
 converfant in the Word of God, proves the Church 
 by the Scripture * And then upon the matter, we 
 have a double Divine TeRimony , altogether Infallible, 
 to confirme unto us. That Scripture is the Word of God . 
 The firflis the Tradition of the Church of the jfpo- 
 ftlesthtmfelvcs, who delivered immediately to the 
 World, the Word of CbriSt . The other , the Scrip- 
 ture itfelfe, but after it hath received this Teftimo - 
 fly. And into thefe we doe, and may fafely Refolve 
 
 our 
 
1 jQtiid ah tern credimus pQjierioribus, cir- 
 ca cjuos non apparent virtutes Divinahoc 
 eft ir £)u:anon predicant alia, quam qua 
 'lli in Seri pels certify mis re 'latter unt. 
 Qua conftat per msdies in nulla fuiffe % a- 
 tiata ex confenjione concordi in eis omnium 
 
 ora no/t 
 
 our Faith. for the Tradi- 
 
 tion of after Ages 3 in , and about 
 
 * which Miracles and Divine ‘Tow- 
 er were not fo evident, We be - '? in Sc f¥ is ‘ertipmis redder jtnt. 
 
 lieve them ( by Gandavo’s Full 
 
 Confcffion ) becaife they doe not fggcedentiHm Hfqne ad temp or a nofir a, 
 . , j. . j f r Henr.aGand, Snm.P. 2, 
 
 preach other things then thofe for- 
 mer ( the Apo files) left in feriptis certiftimis, inmofi 
 cert nine Scripture. And it appear es by men in the mid - 
 die ages ? that thefe writings were Vitiated in nothing , 
 by the concordant consent in them of all fucceedcrs , to 
 our owne time , 
 
 And now by this time it will be no hard thing N u m. 3 j. 
 ttrreconcilethe Fathers, which feeme to fpcake dif- 
 ferently in no few places, both one from another^ 
 
 & nd the lame from themlelves , touching Scripture 
 and Tradition ; And that as well in this Point to 
 prove Scripture to be the Word of God y as for con- 
 cordant expofition of 1 Scripture in all things elfe. 
 
 When therefore the Fathers fay y 
 
 h We have the Scripture by Tradition , b Sc rtpturas habemus ex Tr adit tone. 
 
 Of the like, either They m^ane toe invenimtur in Literis Apojlolorum, &c. 
 Tradition of the A pO flies themfelves non a'j tills tradita & commendata 
 
 delivering it, and there, when it is CpfZZ'.f A ° fr * , ‘* 
 biowne to be flich, we may refohe 
 our Faith . Or if they j peake of the Trefent Church , 
 then they meane, that the Tradition of it, is that by 
 which m fir fl receive the Scripture 3 as by an accor - 
 ding Meanes to the Trime Tradition . But becaule it is 
 not Jhnply Divine , we cannot refolve our Faith into 
 it 3 nor fettle our Faith upon it 3 till it refolve it lelfe 
 into the Trime Tradition of the Apojlles } or the Scripture , 
 or both • and there we reft with it. And you cannot 
 (hew an ordinary content of Fathers: Nay can you, 
 or any of your Quarter, fhew any one Father of the 
 
 Churchy 
 

 «t*4 
 
 §«i 6 . 
 
 * Non aliunde fcientia Qodcftium. ^.Hi- 
 lar. L. 4. dc Tr 'inif . Angelas de Coelo 
 
 annunciaverit prater quam quod in Scrip - 
 f#rA, ere. <S\ Aug. £.3. awf. Pctil.c.o. 
 
 b jQuum fit perfetlus Scripturarum Qa- 
 
 Mum, 34. 
 
 Church, Greeke , or Itfme, that ever (aid, W 7 * ^ ?o 
 refofoe our Faith , that Scripture is the Word ofGodJnto 
 the Tradition of the prefent Church ? And againe, 
 when the Fathers fay, we are to relie upon Scrips 
 
 ture 3 onely , they are never to 
 bee underftood with Exclufi- 
 on of Tradition , in what caufos 
 foever may be had, b P{ot hut 
 ^ ~ that the Scripture, is abundantly fuf- 
 
 7:£St. ficient, in, and to it [elf for all things t 
 
 it' it be fibi ad omnia, then to this. To but becaufe it is deepe: and maybe 
 
 ^roveit lelt, at kail after Tradition hath dravone VltO different fenfeS . and ft) 
 prepared us to receive it. , ni .pr .** 
 
 miltaken , it any man will pre- 
 fume upon his owne ftrength, and go fingle with- 
 out the Church. 
 
 To gather up whatfoever may feme fcattered 
 in this long Difcourft to prove , That Scripture is the 
 Word of God , I fhall now in the Laft Place put all 
 together, that fo the whole ftate of the Quefiion may 
 the better appeare. 
 
 FirU then I fhall defire the Pleader toconfider, 
 that every pationall Science requires fome Principles 
 quite without its owne Limits, which are not pro- 
 ved in that Science, but prefuppo- 
 
 «• *»«•**« j-wo. 
 
 s. Cyril. Hierofol. Catecbefi 5. fhewes fes Grammar , and Muficke j4ritb - 
 
 how all things in the world do fuk cm- mtlc y_ Therefore it is moft rea- 
 Mere. Therefore molt unrealonatile to _ t 1 1 1 • n 111 
 
 deny that to Divinity , which all Scien- lonable that 1 beologte lhould be 
 
 ces, nay all things challenge Namely, allowed to have fome Principles 
 fome things to be prefuppofed , and be- « r 1 « 1 n \ 
 
 j ieved# b r rr > alio, which (he p ro yes not, but 
 
 prefuppofes. And the chiefefl: of 
 theft, is, That the Scriptures are of Divine ^Authority. 
 
 Secondly , that there is a great deale of difference 
 in the Manner of confirming the Principles of Divinity, 
 and thoft of any other Art, or Science whatfoever. 
 
 For 
 
 Pun . 1 . 
 
 Pun. 2 . 
 
 / 
 
§.l£. 
 
 For the Principles of all other Sciences dot finally 
 refolds, either into the Conclufions of fome Higher 
 Science • or into thole Principles which are per fe no - 
 ta , known by their own light, and are the Grounds 
 and r Principles of all Science. And this is it, which 
 properly makes them Sciences , becaufethey proceed 
 with fuch ftrengch of Demonstration , as forces Reafon 
 ro yeeld unto them. Bi&the Principles of Divinity re- 
 folve not into the Grounds of Natural! peafon (For 
 then there would be no roomc for Faith , but all 
 would bee either Knowledge, or Vifion) but into 
 the TMaximes of Divine Knowledge [uper natural!. 
 And of this we have juft fo much light ^ and no 
 more, then God bath revealed unto us in the 
 
 Scripture, > . 
 
 Thirdly y That though the Evidence of thefe Su- Pun . f, 
 permturall Truths , which Divinity teaches , appeares 
 not fo manifeit as that of the Na- 
 
 tural! * 8 yet they are in them (elves a Si credere mamfeftis, invifibilibut 
 
 . ’ J f d , • r irLl mans qudm viftbilibus oportet credere. 
 
 muen more line and infallible Licet dibtum fit admtrabiic , verum eft, 
 
 then they. For they proceed im- &c. i.Chryioftom. Hem. a 6 . ad p 0 p. 
 
 i . / r ^ i t ti'*- And there he proves ic. Alia Scientist 
 
 mediately from God, that Heaven - certitu di nem habent ex Namraii Lum- 
 
 py Wifdome^ which being the loun- w %jitionis Humana, qua decipi poteft : 
 
 taine of ours, muft needs infinite- 
 ly precede ours , both in Nature 
 and. excellence. He that teach eth 
 man knowledge , /ball not he know ? 
 t Pfal 94. And therefore, though howtopunilh? 
 wee reach not the Order of their Deductions, nor 
 can in this life come to the <~vifion of them , yet 
 wee yeeld as full , and firme Ajjent , not onely to 
 the ^Articles 3 but to all the Things rightly deduced 
 from them as wee doe to the mod evident 
 Principles of Natural! peafon. This ^Ajjent is called 
 Faith. And Faith being of things not feme, Heb. 11. Heb - ”.1 
 
 p 3 would 
 
 Hac ant cm ex Limine Divine Scientist , 
 epudt decipi non poteft. ,c . 
 
 f Pfal. 9 4.10. Ouro?d English Tranfla- 
 cion reads it. Shall not he petmjfb ? Thac 
 is, dial l not lie know when, and why,and 
 
io6 
 
 §. 1 6. 
 
 'Si fit %at in ctminccns , & fropttr tint 3 Would quite loofc its honour, 
 erdtt, oUm nm credit na y i t fdf c if it m et with fuffici- 
 
 merit urn fideu Biel.3.^.25. «w<r. ' . - 7 . 
 
 ne. Non efi dicendus credere, cujusjudi - ent UYOUndS 111 IX 4 1 Urdu ’ \edjon, 
 
 r 1 /“ r .. 7 ? ’.1 
 
 cium 
 
 m fubvgitur, aut cogi HTy &c. Supl. w J lcrcon tQ ft a y jt felfc. For Fdff/j 
 Triplicat. contra Whitaker. wp. 6 .;. 64 . . . , V , tt/ // J 
 
 t /&/ nonfit in nobis nifi volentibtu.To- IS 2 mixed ACT Or the Jrl// jUld ChC 
 
 let.in S. loh. 16. Annot.-tf. Et qui va- 
 luer unt, crediderunt. 5 . Aug. Seym. 60. 
 devcrb % ( Vom.c .') . -Ffc&f ARusejt, non 
 jolijis Intellettm , fed etiam Voluntatis , 
 qua coei yen potejl. Into magi: V olunta - 
 rir quam Intelleflus, quatenus ilia Opera - 
 frindpium eft , <#* Aftenfum ( f 
 propr'e oAftus fidei eft ) fold elicit . iV«r 
 nb Intellects Voluntas , fed d Voluntate 
 Intel left »s in <tAUu fidei determinatur, 
 
 Stap l. Trip lie, cont, Whitak. c. 6.p. 64. 
 
 Credere enim eft <tACus Jntcllcttus de- 
 tern atiaduntsm ex Jmperio Volunta- 
 tis. Tho.2.».f.4.^.l-c. TIpnpoteJl da- 
 ri aliquis Afenfus fidei , quicunque ills 
 ftrftu non depends t infuis Caufts mediate 
 vd immediate ab attu Voluntatis. Aim. 
 
 Sent. ‘P. 24 . C 0 Kc ^ H f* 6 * 4 . 
 
 f^jr.fayes: Fidei locum efe Cor. 
 in S Ioh. Where the Heart 
 
 in 
 
 Av 
 
 Tr 
 
 is } 
 
 coi 
 
 dc 
 
 Se 
 
 T 
 
 SJMat.II.aj. 
 
 fun * 4. 
 
 Vnderftanding , and 'he b Will in- 
 clines the Vnderjlanding to yecld 
 full approbation to that whereof it 
 fees not full proofe. Not but that 
 there is moll full proofe of them, 
 but becaufe the maine Grounds 
 which prove them, are concealed 
 from our view, and folded up in 
 the unreyealed Counjellof God , God 
 in Chrijl refolving to bring man- 
 kincfe to their laft happindTe by 
 Faith , and not byfcto>fedfe ? that fo 
 the weakeft among men may 
 have their way to bteffednejfe open. 
 
 XSSiUttSti And cercaine ic is,that many wok 
 . And fo doth Biel alio, in $. men belieye them/eb s into Heayen , 
 ;.q. w»c. Art.i. F. a n d m any ovcr^kt owing Chri- 
 
 ftians loo(e their way thither , while they will if- 
 lieye no more then they can clcarely know. In which 
 pride , and vanity of theirs they arc left , and have 
 thefe things hid from them , S. Mattb. 11. 
 
 Fourthly , That the Credit of the Scripture , the 
 !Booke in which the Principles of Faith are written, 
 ( as of other writings alfo) depends not upon the 
 fublervient Inducing C au J e > that leads us to the firffc 
 knowledge of the Authour , which leader here is the 
 Churchy but upon the Author him(elf,and the Opinion 
 we have of his lufficiency , which here is the Holy 
 Spirit of God , whole Pen-men the Prophets and Apo/lles 
 were. And thexfore the Myfltries of Viyinity contained 
 
 in 
 

 107 
 
 in chi^ Booh; As the Incarnation of our Saviours 
 The Refurrettion of the dead, and the like, cannot 
 finally bee refolved into the lole Teflimony of the 
 Church , who is but a Subfervient Caufe, to lead 
 to the knowledge of the ^Authour , but into the 
 wifedome and Sufficiency of the xfAuthour , who 
 being Omnipotent , and Omnifcient , mud needs bee 
 Infallible. 
 
 Fiftly , That the Afiuranee we have of the Pen- ip^v; 
 men of the Scriptures , the Holy Prophets, and ^Apo- 
 files , is as great, as any can be had of any Humane 
 <Authours of like Antiquity. For it is morally as evi- J 
 
 dent^o any Pagan, that S .SMatthew and S.'Taul 
 writ the Gofpell , and Epiflles which beare their 
 Names , as that Cicero , or Seneca wrote theirs. But 
 that the Apoflles were divinely infpired, whilU they writ 
 them , and that they are the Very Word of (fod expref* 
 fed by them, this hath ever beene a matter of Faith in 
 the Church, and was fo, even while the *ApoftU$ 
 themfcl ves a lived, and a Thc ApoftIes intked chey for they !ud cleare Re * 
 
 W as never a matter or velation: They to whom they preached, might believe, 
 
 ^Evidence and Know- but they could not know without the like Revelacion. 
 7 , . a tt S° ^ . I°b. 1 9 35. He that fartv , knowes that he fayes 
 
 ledge ^X. iealt as A MOW- true, that j/ oh, which [aw not, might believe. Dens in 
 
 ledge is oppofed to r Prophew{& ftcin Apofiolu) qms immediate illumina* 
 37 +L VT rr 11 v bat, can fab at evidential. Iaco. Almain. in 3 . Sent.Difc 
 J^altrJ. (NOT COUlu iu 24. q.unica. ([one Inf. 6 . But for the refid ue of men, *tis 
 
 at any time then bee no more, but as Thomas hath it. Oportet quod credatur 
 
 more VemonflratiDely ■***«**•* V*" /«&» 4- T1 >° -P - *• 
 
 J q , I . A. 8. ad 8. 
 
 prooved then now • 
 
 I fay , not feientifid , not Vemonftratively, For , 
 
 Were the Apofiles living , and fliould they tell us , 
 that they lpake , and writ the very Oracles of God: 
 yet this were but their owne Teflimony of them/ elves 9 
 and fo not alone able to enforce Beliefe on others. 
 
 And for their Miracles , though they were very 
 Great Inducements oi Beliefe, yet were neither they 
 
 P % Evident 
 
b Non eft evident vet ft a ejfe vera miracula : vet ft a fteri ad il- 
 lam Veritatem comprobandam, la. Almain. in 3. Sent fD .24,^, 
 uniev [cncl. 6 . Therefore the Miracles which Chrill and his 
 ApolUes did, were fully fufficient to beget Faith to Affect, but 
 not Evidence to Convince. 
 
 c Cantos nos fecit Sponfus, quia & (JMiraculis decipi non debe- 
 mus. S. Aug. T.l^.inS. ioh. And he that lay esvve ought not 
 to be deceived, acknowledges that we may be deceived even by 
 Miracles. And Arguments which can deceive, are not fufficient 
 to Convince. Though they be lometimes too full of efficacy to 
 pervert. And lo plainly Almain.out of Ocham, Nunquam acquit 
 ritur Evidentia per Medium quod de fe gen er at falfum afenjum, 
 
 Jicttt verum. la. Bhnz.in 3 SertfDi . 24 ^ unic. Cone, 6 . And 
 therfore that Learned Romaneffatholft, who cels us ,t be sip oft les 
 Miracles made it evident^ that their dottrine was true and Di- 
 vine, went too farre. Credible they made it, but not Evident, 
 
 And therefore he is after forced to confefl'e, That the foule fom- 
 timt ^ffents not to the Miracles, but in great timidity , which 
 cannotihnd \N\t\\clcerc Evidence. And after againe, That the 
 foule may renounce the Do Urine formerly confirmed by Mira - * 
 cits , unlejfe feme inward, and fupernatur all Light be given } See. 
 
 And neither can this poffibly ftand with Evidence. And there- ... 
 
 fore Bell armine goes no farther then this : Miracula ejfe fuffi- j-Jjg hi ‘Tie (l dc 
 dent i a, & efftcacia ad novam fidem perfuadendam. L. 4 . de * ' ' 
 
 Notts Ecclef. c, 14. §. 1. To induce and perfwade, but not to 
 Convince. And Thomas will not grant fo much , for he fayes 
 exprelly : Miracnlum non eft fufficirns Caufa indue ens Fidem. 
 fluid videntium unum & idem Miracnlum, quidam crcdunt,& 
 qmd tm non, 1 ho. v. 2 . q . 6 , A,\.c. And Ambrof. Catharin. 
 in Rom, 10. 1 5. is downe-right at Nulla fides eft habenda /*r- 
 no, Examinanda funt , &c, Anallalius Nicanus Epifcopus , 
 a pud Baron, ad An. 360. num. 21, Non funt neceffana fxgna 
 vert fideiy &c. Suarez, defenj. Fidei Cat ho. L,i.c.y .Nu. 3. 
 d Deut.13.1,2, 3. 2. Theft. 2. p, S. Mare. 13.22. 
 
 'OperatioVirtutum alteri datur . I . Cor.ia. i®.(To one and ano- 
 ther he liuth,not to d[.)Damania f u gar c, Mart uos (ufcitare,Grc. 
 dedit qttibufdavtDif eipulis fuis , quibufdamnon dedit . ('That 
 is to doe Miracles.)*?. Aug. Serm. 22. de Verbis Apoft > e. 
 
 Evident and ( on- 
 line mg Proof es , 
 b alone and of 
 tbemfvhss. Both 
 becaufe 3 There . 
 may bee coun- 
 terfeit Miracles : 
 And becaule true 
 ones are neither 
 c Infallible nor In- 
 feparable dMarkes 
 of Truth in Do- 
 dd ne.A 7 rtf infalli- 
 ble : Foi* they 
 may be Marks of 
 falie Doctrine in 
 
 gree. a Deut. 13. 
 Not proper , and 
 Inf epar able: For 
 c all which wrote 
 bylnfpiratiorbdid 
 not confirm their 
 Doctrine by Mi- 
 racles. For we do 
 not findc that 
 Day id, or Sdo- 
 
 | S.Ioh. 10.41. 
 
 mon, with fome 
 other of the ‘Trophets, did any , neither were any 
 
 wrought by S.Iobn the r Baptift , t S Job. 10. So, as Cre- 
 dible Signes they were, and are ftilj of as much forceto 
 us, as tispoflibk for things on the credit of ([{elation 
 to be: For the Witneffes. are many, and fuch as fpent 
 their lives in making good the Truth, which they 
 law. But that the Workers of them were Diyineh 
 
I op 
 
 §'. i 6 - 
 
 and hfallibilty inspired in that which they Preacht; 
 
 and writ was ftiil to the v Hearers . 
 
 £ r- . r j . _ ^ T Here it may' be obierved how warily 
 
 a mated Oi rcUth } and no n C carries himfelfc. For when hce 
 
 evident by the lighr oi JHlWluHe hath laid 3 1 hat a dears %cvc lai ion was 
 m r * |:„-J • t Unf* im ^e to the tsl pc files , which is moft 
 
 W» co men that lived in thole trae . An d fc tile ahm« knew that 
 DayeSjtlien to US now. For had which they taught fmplictt'sr d priori y 
 that beetle Demonstrated, or beene Demonftbtivdy from the Prime 
 
 cleare (as Prime Principles arc)in 
 its ovvne liglir 3 both they and we 
 
 could have no other knowing Aflurance* 
 Credible they mighr.and had. So A>i ; 
 is wary there , but comes not home to 
 the Bufireffe : And To might have held 
 his peace. For the Queilion is not,what 
 cleare Kvidence the Apoftles had ? but 
 what Evidence they had, which heard 
 them ? 
 
 Caufe, God himfdfe. Then bee addes 
 P cleare in attefi ante. That is 
 
 the Revelation of this Truth was cleare 
 , , • r ~ i | ii i - %r n in the Apoftles that w.itneflcd it. But 
 
 had apprehended ail the rviyite- to make it knowledge in the Auditors, 
 
 ries Ol Divinity by Jfnowledge, not f hc fame , cr like Revelation , and as 
 by Faith. But this is moil appa-‘ clcaremuft made t0 thcm - For the y 
 rent was not. For had the (Pro- 
 phets , or Jpoflles been ordered by 
 God to make this Demonfrative - 
 ly, or Intuitively by Diicourfe, or 
 vifion appearc as cleare to their 
 Auditors, as to themfelves it did, 
 that W ha do ever they taught was Divine, and Infalli- 
 ble Truth % all men which had the true ufe of Reafon„ 
 mull have beene forced to yeeld to their Doctrine.. 
 a Efay could never have beene at Domine quis ? Lord 1 1 ' Uj/ )5<I * , 
 who hath believed our Report ? Ejay 53. Nor b Ieremy at b ier^o.7. 
 -Donum, fact us fum. Lord Iamin de- . Ms I? And had ZedechUmi 
 rifion daily, Ier. 20. Nor could any tlic people feene it as clcarely as Ieremy 
 
 of S. Tank Auditors have mocked at did , that the w«rd he fpake 
 
 r-1 J A Cl was Gods word, and Infalliole, Ierufa-* 
 
 him (as lomcoitiiem did) Act. 17. lem^oi oughr we know, had not beene 
 
 for f readme the fefumcliot , if layd defolatc by rhe Chatdcdri. But be- 
 . . ,,1 /ii caufe they could not ice this by the 
 
 they had had as lull a view, as way of knowledge r and would notbc- 
 
 S. Paul himfelfe had in the A/Jure - iieve it by way of Faith, they, and that 
 
 ance, which God gave of it in, andhy City period together. >, 38.17. 
 
 the fefurreBm of Chrijl. ajerf. 51. But the way of 
 Knowledge was not that which God thought fitted 
 for mans Salvation For Man having finned by fride, 
 
 God thought fitted: to humble him at the very root 
 
 
 of 
 
 9 
 
IIO 
 
 of the Tree of IQio'toledge, and make him deny his un- 
 
 * Nemo pins, niji qui Scripture credit, 
 .S’. Aug. L.2 6 .cont.F*uftta». c , 6 . No// 
 no Man believes the Scripture, that doth 
 not believe that it is the Word ot God. 
 I lay, which doth not believe , I doe 
 not lay , which doth not know . Opor- 
 tet quod Credatur Aiithoritati eorum 
 qtdbus Revel atiofaUa eft. Tho p.j, 
 a% feemdum. on J's v 
 
 &c, gguod vero An imam habemus, unc* 
 manifcftaml Si enim ZJifibilibus credere 
 velts,& de Deo,& de Angelis,& dement e, 
 & de Amma dnbitabis : & ftc tibi omrtia 
 veritatis dogmata deperibunt. Et cer- 
 te f manifests credere velis ffnvifibilibns 
 mans quam Zdifibib bus credere oportet. 
 Licet enim admirabile fit dilUnn, veram 
 tatnm , & apud mentem habentes valde 
 certum , vel in conftjfo. Ex hotnil, 
 12 S. Chryfofi. tn S. tJMat. 2 “o. I, Edit • 
 Eronto : Ear if, 1636. 
 
 derftandmg^nd fubmit to Faith, or 
 hazard his bappineffe. The ( re - 
 dibit Objett ail the while, that is, 
 the MyHeries of Religion , and the 
 Scripture which containes themis Di- 
 vine and Infallible . and lo are the 
 
 Den-men of them elation , 
 
 »• » . % 
 
 But we, and all om 0 - ' ■ ~~ K \ r 
 
 ihe Hearers, and Dgta* them, 
 
 h^vc neither * knowledge <r vijion 
 of the Prime Principle in , or 
 about them, but * Faith t ly.And 
 the Revelation , which v s cleare 
 to themes not fo to us, n r there- 
 fore the DrimeTr adit ion it f Jfe de- 
 livered by them. 
 
 fp UHt (y 4 Sixthly , That hence it may be gathered, that 
 
 the Afjentj which we }eeld to this maine Principle of 
 Divinity , That the Scripture is the Word of God , is 
 grounded vpon no Compelling, or Demovftrative Dgtti- 
 ocinatmjout relyes upon the ftrength ol Faith , more 
 , ... . ^ thenany other Principle whatfo- 
 
 f And this is the Ground or that which g ,, » 1 /r 
 
 j laid before, §.15 jv^.i.That the Scrip* ever. 7 For all other neceflary 
 
 ture only ,and not any unwritten Tradi- PoyntS ofDivillity rriaybyun- 
 
 SSKSSSSafiSa d “F, We inferred 
 
 pture is firft yeelded unto. , out of Scripture it lelfe once ad- 
 
 mitted , but hi s, concerning the Au- 
 thority of Scripture not poflibiy .• But mull: either 
 be prooved by Revelation , which is not new to bee 
 expe&ed : Or preiuppofed and granted as manifeft 
 in it felfe,likc the Principles of naturallbio'toledge, which 
 Reafon alone will never Grant : Or by Tradition of the 
 Church,both Prime, and VrejentfmxFi all other Rati- 
 # nail Helper preceding or accompanying the internail 
 
 Light 
 
Light in Scripture it felfe ; which though it give Light 
 enough for Faith to believe, yet Light enough it 
 gives not to bee a convincing J^eajon , and proofe 
 for knowledge . And this is it, which makes the very 
 entrance into Divinity, inacceffible to thofe men, who 
 ftanding high in the Opinion of their owne wifi 
 dome, wall believe nothing, but that which is irre- 
 
 fraga jly prooved from \ationall Principles . For as 
 
 a Deniallof a mans jelfe , that he may be able 
 Tofodow him. S. Luke 9 : So as great a part as any of s - L ^9- 2$.’ 
 this Denyall of his Whole- felfe ( for fo it mull bee ) is 
 the denyall of his Vnder [landing, and the compofing 
 of the unquiet fearch 
 
 of this Grand lnauifi- * IntelUElus Credentis determine ur per Vefftntxtem, 
 » c • / non per Kjttionem. Tho. ‘i.i.q.i.A, I. ad tertittm. And 
 
 tor mtO thC oecrets or whaepowerthe Will hath in Cafe of mens Believing, 
 
 Him that made it, and or H0C Believing,is mani fetter. 44. But this is fpoken 
 I : of the Will compared with the Vnckrllanding oncly. 
 
 the over- rulcing the i eavingthc Operations of Grace free over Both. U 
 
 doubcfulneflc of it by 
 the fervency of the 3 WiU. 
 
 Seventhly , That the knowledge of the Supreme Tun.yl 
 
 Caufe of all ( which b Communis enim fententix efiP xtrum & Theologomm 
 is God) IS moft remote, aliorum f demon(lrari po(fe naturali rat tone Deum eflej 
 
 and themoft difficult dpoftewn & per effect 5 fcTho.*i. 
 
 thing \eaj on can have fent.D . 24 ^.1. But what may be demonstrated by na* 
 tO do with. The Quod realon, by natural light may the fame be known* 
 
 “Ti L * r^j And lo the ApofUe bimlelfe, Rom. I. lO.Jtrvifibilia *t)ei 
 
 fit, 1 hat there IS a God, dCreaturd mundi per ex qua fall a font , intellect a con- 
 
 t blear e eyed Lfea fon can /faiuntur. And fo Calvin moftdearely, L. 1. Infi.c, 
 
 / 1 r H I r § * 1 • perire O culos nequemt , quin afpkere cum co- 
 
 G. hut i he Qfja Jit, guntur, though 'Bellarmine would needes be girding ac 
 
 what that God is, IS in- himX«4-d<? Cjrat.efr Lib. ±Ar bit. c. 2, Videtur autei# <& 
 
 %jttic its qua apparent xttefiari : Omnes enim homines 
 de T>iu(ut Me loquitur ) habent cxifiinrationem, Ariii .Z, 
 J.de CceloT.il. 
 c Damafc.L.1. Ortho. Fid. c. 4. 
 d l Tim. 6.16. Etne VeJHgium fic Accedendi relinqult 
 S. Aug. nifi augeas imaginaticue cogitationis lucem folis 
 wmmerabi liter vel quid xliud &c, L. 8, de Trin.c. 
 
 2, Solus modus accedendij Greets fu»t.l$oe$,dc Confolx, 
 thilofi U 5. profit. 3. 
 
 If 
 
 finitely beyond all the 
 faihoms of (fyafon. He 
 is a Light indeed, but 
 fuch as no mans Rea- 
 fon can come at for 
 the Brightness i Ttnh6. 
 

 
 1 1 1 
 
 §• 
 
 If any thing therefore 
 bee attainable in this 
 kindc , ir mutt bee by 
 c Revelation ; And that 
 mutt bee from Him - 
 felfe : for none can 
 ReVeale . but 1 hee that 
 
 Comprehends. And 3 none 
 
 doth, 
 
 or can c-omore- 
 
 e Trxter Sclcntuu Pbilofopbicas , eft ut pons. tar 
 
 alia Scientia divinitus revelata de iis ejux hominis cap- 
 te m excedunt.'Xho.p.i.q.l zAd . 1. 
 
 * And therefore Biel is expreffe, That God could not re- 
 veale any thin® that is to come, raft illud ejfet a Deo pra- 
 feitum ftu pravifum ( i . e. unleffe God did fully compre- 
 hend that which He doth xevedXejBiel .in^.fent.D . 1 5-f . 
 
 2. A. i . 
 
 zNftllus Into He A us Creates videndo Deumpoteft cogno - 
 feere Omnia qua Dens facie, vel potedl facere. Hoc eftim 
 elfet Comprebcndere ejus ■viriuiem.&c. 1 ho. p. I. q. 12. 
 
 A. 3 . C. 
 
 Ad Argument urn : fthiod Dens tit Speculum eft : St 
 
 mod Omnia qua fieri pojfmt, in eo refplendent. fefpon- ] lenc } Godfaut Himfelfe. 
 det Thom, ftpuodnon eft nece[farmm } quod videtts fpecu- , . 11 \ rn 
 
 lum i omnia in fpeculo videat, nifi /pe< ulum vifu fuo com- aVnd Wneil he dotil i\f~' 
 
 prebcxdatJT ho. p.l .q.12. A.S.ad i. ( No w no man can Veak, yet He IS 110 far- 
 
 comprehend this G la fle which is God Himlelfe.^ rh^r Hi fern's kl U* 
 
 11 Dens cnbn eft Speculum voluntarium rev elans qua & ^ ^ ^ e , til ell 
 
 cjitot vpilt alicui beato : non esl Speculum naturaliltr re - 
 prxfentans omnia. B iel . Suppl, in 4. Sent. D. 4 y.q. $. 
 prop of. 3. 
 
 1 For if Realcn well put to its fearch did not finde this 
 out, how came Aril ?. to affirm e this by rationa l difqui- 
 lition. Ji rh voauScc. %eftat , ut mensiola 
 
 eXtrinfecus accedat, eaquefola divrna fit y nihil enim cum 
 
 ejus A A tone communicatAStio cor p oralis. Ai Ai.l, 2. de gen . fillCC that Felicity COH- 
 Anim.c .3. This cannot be lpoketi of the were it r-n , ^ . . 
 
 mortal!. And therefore 1 mult needs be or Paulus Benins ^ ^be LOiltentfldtlOtl 
 
 his opinion, who (ayes plainly, and proves it wo, Turpi, 
 ter affix am a quibufdam Ariftoteli Alortalitatis Amnia 
 Opinionem . B enius in Timxum PI atoms Decad.zx.L, 5. 
 k For if Tjxfon did not dictate this alio , wlience is it 
 that Ariftotle difputes of the way and meanes of attain- 
 ing it. L. 1. Moral c. 9. And cakes on him to proove 
 That Felicity is rather an Honourable then a Com 
 
 mendable thing.c. 1 2 . And after all this,he addes,^* Happines is tO know 
 be at a tot a vita eft , hominibus autemeatenus y quatenus ~ . 
 
 fimilitudo quadam ejufmodi Operations ipfis in c/?, Arid, CjOu ? aim Him WilOm. 
 
 L 10. Morals. 8 . 
 
 ■ S. Tohn 17 - 3 * Ultima Beatitudo hominis confiftit in 
 quadam fupt rnaturali viftone Dei. Ad banc autem vib- 
 cnem Homo pertingere non poteftjiifi per modum Addif- 
 centis a Deo Dodlore, Omnis qui audit a Patrc Sc didicit. 
 
 S.Iohn 6.45.Tliom,2.2.^.2.(v^.3./«Co 
 
 h Hwifelf pleafes. Now 
 fince 1 { J\eafon teaches > 
 that the Soule of man 
 is immortafand v cafe- 
 able of Felicity . And 
 
 of thehighejl Caufe, w cI * 
 againe is God himfelfe . 
 And fince Chrift ther- 
 inConfirmes thatDi- 
 Bate , that mans eternal 
 
 hehathfent,S. k M. i 
 And fince nothing can 
 put us into the way of 
 attaining to that Con- 
 
 templation > but fomc 
 <v elation of Himfelfe y and of the l bay to himfelfe . I fay 3 
 fince all this is (o, It cannot reafonably be thought 
 by any prudent man 3 that the stlFiriJe God fhould 
 
 create 
 
 
 
§• i<5. 
 
 create man with a Defire of Felicity ; and then leave 
 him utterly deilitute of all InflrumerttaU Helps to make 
 the Attainment poffibic : fin ce * God and Nature do no- 
 thing, but for an end. And Helpe there can bee none 
 fuffi cient , but by Revelation. And once grant mee 
 that Revelation is neceflary, and then I will appeale to 
 Reafon itfelfe, and that (hall prove abundantly one 
 of thefe two. That either, there TV as never any Juch Re- 
 velation of this kinde from the worlds beginning to this day : 
 And that will put th cfrufird upon God in point of 
 mans Felicitie : Or , that the Scriptures Tbhich Tbee now 
 embrace , as the Word of God 3 is that Revelation. And 
 that’s it we Chriftians labour to make good againft 
 all Atheifine y TrophaneneJfe t and Infidelity. 
 
 Lafl of all, To pro ve that the Hooke of God which 
 we honour as His Word-, is this neceflary Revelation 
 of God and his Truth, which muff, and is alone able-, 
 toleade us in'the way to our cternall Bleflednefle ( or 
 elfe the world hath none) comes in a Cloud of witnefjes. 
 Some for the Infidel , and fome for the © eleever. Some 
 for th cVHeake in Faith , and fome for the Strong. And 
 fome for aH. For then firft comes in the Tradition of 
 the (fhurch, the pref ent Church - fo’tis no Hereticall, or 
 Schifmaticdl Beliefe. Then the Tefiimony of former A* 
 ges ; fo tis no New Beliefe. Then the confent of 
 Times ,* fo "tis no Divided or parfiall Beliefe. Then 
 the Harmony of the Dr ophets, and them fulfilled- fo kis not 
 a * Devifed , but a forefpoken Beliefe. Then the fuc- 
 cefle of rhe Doctrine contained in this Booke ; fo ’tis 
 not a Beliefe (lifted in the (ffiadle • but it hath fpread 
 through the world in defpite of what the world 
 could doe againft it- And increafed from weake, 
 and unlikely Beginnings^ to incredible Greatneflc. 
 Then the Ccnfiancy of this l ruth - fo ’tis no Moone-Bc- 
 liefe : For in the midft of the worlds Changes, it 
 
 CL hath 
 
 113 
 
 '‘Dot! & n at ti- 
 ro. nihil fruftrd 
 fociunt.Aritt. L. 
 I. ds (foeloCT.^a 
 fruftra autem eft 
 quod non poteft 
 habere futon ufu- 
 Thom .ibid. 
 
 Tun. R 
 
 * „ 
 
 2 Pet. 1.16. 
 
II/}. 
 
 
 hathpreferved it's Creede entire through many gene- 
 rations. Then; that there is nothing CarnaH in the Do- 
 ctrine • (o’tisaCbaft Bcliefe. And all along it hath 
 gained, kept, and exercifed more power upon the 
 minds ofmen, both learned, and unlearned, in the 
 increafeofvertue,and reprefhon of vice, then any 
 MorallTbilof opine. or Legall Policy that ever was. Then 
 comes the inward Light and Excellency of the Text it f df$ 
 andfo’cis no darke , or dagling Beliefe. And *tis an 
 Excellent Text : For fee the riches ofNaturall knowledge, 
 which are ftored up there, as well as Supernatural! 
 Confider how things quite above %eaj on confeni with 
 things ^ eafonable . Weigh it well what Majefty lyes 
 
 there hid under Humility : a What 
 Depth theris with a Perjpicuity uni- 
 mitable: What b Delight it works in 
 the Soule, that is devoutclycxcer. 
 cifed in it, how the c Sublimejl wits 
 findein it enough to ama^e them; 
 while the c jhnphft want not 
 enough to dirett them. And then 
 ^ we fhall not wonder, if (with the 
 
 S, Aug.de Mor.Ec.Cat.c.iy.Sed nihil fub alllftailCe of d Gods Spirit, who 
 ip ir it nali fenfu centinetur Fidei ttccefta- i t ^ . T [ , _ r r 
 
 rium, quod Script ur a per Liter alem fen- «nOnc WorkeS Edith and Beltefe of 
 
 fnm alicubi mamfeftc non tradat. Tho. p. the Scriptures, and their Divine Autho- 
 
 'ic'JZf&l. fient eb ali* mult* certi- , as WC,laS ° ther ^ticUs ) wee 
 
 ora Argument a ( quam eft Teftimonium grow Up illtO a moft Infallible 
 
 Eccle^) tumpur ho. pot.gmum j u ( uc h an jff urailcc as hath 
 
 quod S pern us Sanaus nobis tntus has ejfe J 5 \ \ \ , 
 
 Dei voces perfuddeat. Whitaker^ Di - made many lay downe their lives 
 rput. de Sa. Scrip. Contwerf i. q t for this Truth : fuch , as that, 
 
 * Though an Jngell from Heaven 
 f jould T reach unto us another Gofpell , we would not be- 
 lieve Him, or it. No-; though wee fhould fee as 
 great, and as many Miracles done over againe to dif 
 fwade us from it , as were at firfl to win the woYld 
 
 * to 
 
 3 ftfuaft quidam ftuvius eft, planus, & A l- 
 tus,i» quo & Agnus ambulet,& Elephas 
 ndtet. S. Greg. Dr* fat. in Lib . Mora - 
 Hum. c. 4, 
 
 h Jn Lege Domini voluntas ejus.P/d.1.2 . 
 Dulcior fuper mel & favum.'Tfa lfc.il. 
 Sc paffim. 
 
 c Mult a dicuntur fubmifsis dr burnt repe- 
 tibus animis,ut accommodates per huma- 
 na in Divina c on f urgant. Mult a etiam ft- 
 gurate,ut ftudiofa mens, dr quafttis ext r- 
 ceatur utilius dr uberius Utetur inventis. 
 
 3 * 8 . 
 3 al. 1. 8. 
 
 r 
 
§. 1 6. 
 
 n 5 
 
 to it. To which firmnefle of A (Jan by the Operati- 
 on Oi Gods Spirit , the IP?// con'lerres as much , or 
 more flrength y then the Vnderftandirig^ Cleareneffe , the 
 whole Affent being an of Faith , and not of 
 I\no'iv!edge, And therefore the QuefHon fhould not 
 have beetle asked of’meeby F, Holt; I knelt? ? But 
 m rpon what Motives I did believe Scripture to bee the 
 Word of God } And I would have him take heed 
 left hunting too clofe after a Way of Knowledge, hee 
 loofc the way of Faith y and reach other men to 
 loofeittoo. 
 
 So then the Way lyes thus (as farre as it appeares ( Vtm.ol 
 to me) T he Credit of Scripture to Lee Divine Refolves 
 finally into that Faith , which wee have touching 
 God Himf dfe , aiid in the fame order. For as that , 
 fo this hath Three maine Grounds , to which all other 
 are Reducible.The Firftis , the Tradition of the (fourth: 
 
 And this ieades us to a Reverend perfwafion of it. 
 
 The Second is, The light of Nature: And this fhewes 
 us how neceflary fuch a Revealed Learning is, and that 
 
 no other way it can be had:* Nay * r va • r m 
 
 more, that all Proores brought & ideo cum impofsibile fit de vero de- 
 againft any Point of Faith, ner- ™ mi ft ra y C^anum: fiqmmr omnes 
 
 ; J - ' 5 t rob At tones quA contra fidem indue tin- 
 
 tucr aie , nor can OC Demoilftra- tur^non pofse efse Demonftrationesgedfo- 
 tions, but foluble Arguments. Argument a. y\w.p^ g. u 
 
 The Third is (The light of the Text it felfe S iq Conver- 
 ging wherewith wee meet with the t Spirit of God , 
 inwardly inclining our hearts, and fealeing the Re/clutio eft in 
 full Afurance of the fuffidency of all Three unco ‘ F)eum niumi^ 
 us. And then, and not before, wee are certaine, mt ' m - S - A m, 
 j hat the Scripture is the VKord of God both by DF 
 r vine y and by If a!! tide Proofe. But our Certainty is by 
 Faith ^ nd fo (voluntary yotby knowledge of CuchPrin- 
 aples , asiti the light of Nature can enforce Affent^ 
 whether we will or no. 
 
 Qj* 
 
 corn. Fund. r. 
 
 1 have 
 
§• 17 * 
 
 I have faid thus much upon this great Gccafi- 
 on,becaufcthis Argument is lomuch prefled, with- 
 out duerefpeft to Scripture. And I have proceeded 
 in a Syntheticall V?ay, to build up the Truth for the be- 
 nefit of the Church, Sc the fatisfa&ion of all men Chri- 
 ftianly difpofed. Whereas had I dehred only to rid 
 my hands of thefe Captious Iefuites ( for certainly this 
 Quelfion was Captioufiy asked ;)it had beenefuf- 
 ficient to have reftored the Queft ion, thus, How doe 
 you know the Teftimony of theChurch(by which, 
 you fay, you know Scripture to be the Word of God ) to 
 be Divine and Infallible ? If they proovc it by Scripture 
 (as all of them doc, and as A. £ .doth) how doe they 
 know that Scripture to be Scripture? It is but a fir - 
 cularAfjuranceoC theirs , by which they found the 
 Qhurches Infallibility upon the Tefiimome of the Scripture • 
 And the Scriptures Infallibility upon the Tejlimony of 
 the Church : That is upon the Matter, the Churches In- 
 fallibility upon the Qhurches Infallibility, But I labour 
 for edification,not for defiruftion. And now, by 
 what I have here faid, I will weigh my Anfwer , and 
 his Exception taken againfl: it. 
 
 p. The Bifhop faid y That the Books of Scripture are 
 
 Principles to be SuppoJed y and needed not to be Proved, 
 
 B- Why, but did I fay, That this Principle (77# 
 Books of Scripture are the Word of God ) is to be fuppo- 
 fed,as needing no Proof at al to a KaturaUmant'Jx to 
 a man neTbly entring upon the Faith} yea or perhaps to a 
 Doubter, ox Weakling in the Faith ? Can you think me 
 fo weake? It feemes you doe. But fure I know, 
 there is a great deale of difference bet weene Ethnicks 
 that deny, and deride the Scripture, and men that 
 are Born in the Church. The firll have a farther way 
 
§• »7' 
 
 117 
 
 ficut ei> 
 
 about to this Principle- The other in their very 
 Chriftian Education fiicke it in , and are taught fo 
 (bone as they are apt to learne it, That the Books, com- 
 monly called The Bible , or Scripture , are the Word of ^ q )ixi ^ 
 God. And I dealt with you t as with a Chriftian , congruebat, a i 
 though in Errour , while you call Catholike. The 
 Words before fpokcn by me were, Tl?at the Scrip - R etr ati.c.i f ' 
 ture onely , not any unwritten Tradition , was the foun- 
 dation of Faith . The Queftion betweene ns , and 
 yoUjis, Whether the Scripture docontaine all neceffary 
 things of Faith * Now in this Queftion, as in all Na- 
 ture , and Jrt y the SubjeB , the Scripture is and mufi 
 be a fuppofed. The Qugre be. 
 tween the Ppmane-Catholikes and 
 the Church of England , being one- 
 ly of the Predicate , the thing ut- 
 tered of it, Namely, whether it 
 containe all Fundamentals of Faith , 
 all £{ecejfaries for Salvation within it? Now fince the 
 Qijeftion propofed in very forme of Art , proves not , 
 lut b fuppofes the SubjeB , I thinke 1 gave a fatisfying 
 Anfwcr, That to you, and me , and in this Qgeftion , 
 
 Scripture Was a Suppo/ed Principle , and needed no SttbjeElfim ip ■ 
 Proofe, And I mud tell you , that in this Queftion t Hm ‘- 
 of the Scriptures perfedi: Continent, it is againft all 
 Art, yea and Equity too , in Realoning to call fora 
 Proofe of That here, which mull go unavoydably 
 fuppofed in this Queftion. And if any man will be io 
 familiar with Impiety , to Queftion it , it mud be 
 trycd in a preceding Queftion, and Ditpute by it felf 
 Yet here not you onely, but c Bellarmine , and others 
 run quite out of the way tofnatch at Advantage. 
 
 8 Nor is it fuch a ftrange thing to heare 
 that Scripture is fuch a fuppofed Principle 
 among Chviitians. ffj£Q& d Scriptura 
 evidenter deducitnr, efi evidenter veru?n } 
 fuppofitis Scnptiiris. Bsliarm. 
 
 Eccl. Miitt . c. 3. §.3, 
 
 b De SubjeEts 
 cj&tritnr 
 
 non 
 
 F« jfgamft this 1 read *ivhat I had formerly Writ- 
 ten in my Bgptf againft M.Iohn White : 
 
 Qj Wherein 
 
 c L. 4. de verb . 
 ‘Dei. c. 4. § . 
 fhtarto necejfe 
 eft. And the !e- 
 fuite here apud 
 A.C./.49 0 
 
 t 
 
§. i8. 
 Kum. i. 
 
 *L. 3 §.8. 
 
 fe Whereas Bcllarm. fayes exprefly,, that 
 in the Controverfies betweene you and 
 us : Non agitur de CMctaphjficis fiubti- 
 litatibus , <ju£ fine pcriculo ignorari^ & 
 interdum cum laude oppugnari pcjfunt , 
 Bsilarm. Prxfat . Opcribus prafix, 
 
 §. 3 * 
 
 i 1 8 §. 18 . 
 
 Wherein 7 plainelj Jhewed, that this Anfwer Tacts 
 not goody and that no other Anfoer could be 
 mideybutby admitting fome Word of God un- 
 written y to aflure us of this Point. 
 
 JJ-. Indeed here you readout ofaBookefwhich 
 you called your owne ) a large Vifcourfe upon this 
 Argument. But furely I fo untied the knot of the Jr- 
 
 gument y that I fet you to your 
 Book again e. For your felfecon- 
 feffe , that againft this you read 
 what you had formerly written. 
 Well! what ere you read there, 
 certaine it is you do a great deale 
 of wrong to M. Hooker a , and my 
 
 c His <™™bw fight z fill ordbiu przmtticn- rjr we Ca jl [t a Sllp- 
 
 r e enim dijfutari potefi , mfi frih in fiofc d or TreJ umed 'Principle among 
 - chriftians^you fhould fall by and 
 
 by into fuch a b Metaphyfcall Dif- 
 courfe to prove., That that which is 
 a c Prcecognitum , fore-knowne. in 
 Science , mull be of fuch light 7 
 that it muft be knowne of, and- 
 
 cejftem, thenlhope it mull be taken as a by It lelle alone; and that the 
 thing foppofed , or as a Pr*cogmttm m Scripture cannot be fo knowne 
 
 this Difpute betweene us. r , * 
 
 tobethelTW of God. 
 
 I will not now enter againe intoahat Difcourle, 
 having laid enough already, how farre trie <Bcame, 
 which is very glorious (especially in fome parts of 
 Scripture) gives light to prove frTclfe. You fee’nei- 
 thei fawner, nor I, nor the Church of England ( for 
 ought I know ) leave the Scripture alone to manifeft 
 it felfe, by the light, which it hath in it felfc. No* 
 but when the prefent Church hath prepared , 2nd 
 led the way, like a preparing Morning-Light to Sun - 
 
 fj Vi'U Jf J J + J J 
 
 aliauo Communi Princlpio cum Advcrfia 
 riis conveniamus. C cnver.it autem tutor 
 ms Cf cranes omniyio Hareticos, Verb am 
 *Dei efie %jgu'am fidti, cx ejudde Dog- 
 ntatibm fitdicandum fit , c fie Commune 
 Principium ab omnibus co -cejjum , unde 
 sAreumenta due ant ur , cfc. Bellarm. 
 Prxfat. Operi b. prefix. § . ult. And if it 
 be ( ernmune Principium ab omnibus con 
 
 NllM, 2 
 
' ) 
 
 1 8 # II Q 
 
 • * . , . ,f I 
 
 fbine • then indeed we fettle for our Direction , yet 
 not upon the firft opening of the morning Light , but 
 upon the Sun it felfe. Nor will l make needleffe 
 enquiry, how far re, and in what manner a Pratcog- 
 nitum , qr Suppofed Principle in any Science , may be 
 proved in a Higher , to which that is (ubordinate • 
 or accepted fora Prime. Nor how it may in DivL 
 mty , where Prct, as well as Pofl-cognita, things fore, 
 as well as after-knowm y are matters , and under the 
 manner of Faith , and not of Science ftri&ly, Nor 
 whether a Pracognitum, a prefuppoftd Principle in 
 Faith, which refts upon Divine Authority , mult needs 
 have as much, andequall Light toNaturall Rcafon, 
 as Prime Principles have in Nature, while they reft 
 upon Reafon. Nor whether it may juftly bee 
 denied to have fufficient Light , becaule not epuall. 
 
 Your owne Schoole t grants i_' . , .h 
 
 ^ - ,. r 1 o 1 > \ CoUi'iituraperttex'i ho.p.l.q.l. A % ^ 
 
 I bat in us y Which are the Subjects ad j. JEt Articular unt tiJti vsritAi non 
 
 both of Faith and K nowledge, and in P° te ft n .°^f e f e cyulens abtoluto. Sellar* 
 
 L r 1 r -1 • • L^.dtEcchf. 
 
 regaraof the Evidence given munto 
 
 us , there is lejje Light , lejse Evidence in the Principles of 
 Faith, then in the Principles of knowledge , upon which 
 there can be no doubt . But 1 think the Schoole will ne- 
 ver grant, That the Principles of Faith (even this in 
 Queftion) have not fufficient Evidence. And you 
 ought not to do, as youdid, without any Diftin<3i- . 
 on, or any Limitation, deny a Prncogmtum y or Prime 
 Principle in the Faith • becaufc itanfwers not in all 
 things to the Prime Principles in Science, in their Light, 
 
 * zndEVidence; a thing in it le If directly againft peafon. 
 
 Well, though l do none of this, yet firft I mud N u tu p 
 tell you, that A.C. here fteps in againe , and tels 
 me. That though a Prxcognitum in Faith need not be fo 
 clearely hmvne y as d Pnecognitum in Science, yet there 
 muflbe this proportion betweene them, that, whether it be 
 
 
* §. 17 
 
 jNu. 2. 
 
 & 18. 
 
 IZO •/ 
 
 in Science, or in Faith, the Pracognitum, or thing fup- 
 pofed as knottme, muft be prius cognitum , firft knomnc, 
 and not need another thing pertaining to that Faith , or 
 knowledge , to be hioSvne before it . fBut the Scripture 
 (filth he) needs Tradition togoe before it 7 and introduce 
 the knowledge of it. Therefore the Scripture is not to be 
 fuppofed , as a Praecognitum, and a thing fore-knome. 
 Truly I am for rie to fie in a man very learned inch 
 wilfull miftakes. For A. C. cannot but perceive, 
 by that which I have clearely laid down t* before, 
 That I intended not to fpeake precifely of a Preecog- 
 yiitum in this Argument, But when I fiid, Scriptures 
 were Principles to be fuppo led; I did not, I could not 
 intend , They w ere prius cognita, knowne before 
 Tradition ; fince I conrefle every where, That Tradi- 
 tion introduces the knowledge of them. But my 
 meaning is plaine ,* I hat the Scriptures are and muft be 
 . . , . v , xr , • , Principles fuppofed before you can 
 
 f And my immediate Words in the 1 J, t gJ > J 
 
 Conference, upon which the lefuite ask- diipute tniS Queftion • ! Whether 
 
 ed } How I kyew Scripture to be Scrip- the Scriptures containe in them all 
 ture f were (.as Teiuite himielre re- , . 1 ^ o ? • n 
 
 lates it apndtA. c, p^s.J That the things necejjary to Salvation. Be- 
 fore which Queftion it muft ne- 
 ceflarily be fuppofid and granted 
 on both fides , Tim the Scriptures 
 are the Word of God. For if they 
 be not , tis inftantly out of all 
 Queftion , that They cannot in- 
 clude all Neceffariesto Salvation. 
 So ’tis a Pracognitum , not to radia- 
 tion (as AC. would cunningly 
 put upon the Caufi) but to the whole Queftion of 
 the Scriptures Jufficiency. And yet if he could tie me to 
 a Prxcognitum in this very Queftion^and proveable in 
 a Superiour Science ; 1 thinke 1 (hall go very neare to 
 prove it in the next Paragraph, and intreat A. f to 
 CQO&fifc it too. And 
 
 Scripture onely , not any unwritten 
 Tradition, was the Foundation of our 
 Faith. Now the Scripture cannot be the 
 enely Foundation of Faith, if it containe 
 not all things neceflary to Salvation; 
 Which the Church of Tfome denying 
 againft all Antiquity, makes it now be- 
 come a Queftion . And in regard of this, 
 my At fwer was, That the Scriptures are 
 and muft be Principles fuppofed, and^r^- 
 cogniu^ before the handling of this Que- 
 ftion. 
 

 
 §. i8. m 
 
 And now having told A. C. this, I mufl fecond- N u m. 4. 
 ly follow him a little farther. For I would fainc 
 make it appears as plainly ,as in fuch a difficulty it 
 can be made, what wrong he doth Truth and him/elf 
 in this Cafe. And it is the common fault of them all. 
 
 For when the Trotefiants atifwer to this Argument 
 (which } a$ l have fhcw’d,can properly have noplace 
 in the Queflion betweene 11s about ’Tradition) t they ^ L ' ^ 
 which grant this as a Prtecognlmm , a thing fore- 
 known(as alio l do) were neither ignorant ,nor forget* 
 full , That things preftippofed, as already known in a 
 Science, are of two forts. For either they are plain e and 
 fully manifest in their olrne Light : or they are proved, a?id 
 granted already , fome former knowledge haying made 
 them Evident . This Principle then, The Scriptures are 
 the Oracles of God , we cannot fay is cleare, and fully 
 manifeft to all men ftrnply , and in f elf Light, for the 
 Rea Ions before given. Yet we fay, after Tradition 
 hath beene cur Introduction, the Soule that hath but 
 ordinary Grace added to %cafon , may diicerne 
 Light fufficient to refolve our Faith , that the Sun te 
 there . This Principle then being not absolutely, and 
 limply evident in it felfe, is prefumed to be taught 
 us otherwife. And if otherwife, then it mud be 
 taught in and by fome fuperiour Science, to which The - 
 ologie is fubordinate. Now men may be apt to think 
 cut of Reverence, That Divinity can have no Science 
 above it. But your 
 owne Schoole teaches 
 me that it hath. * The 
 f acred Doctrine ofDivi - 
 nity in ibis fort is a ScL 
 eiice , becaufe it proceeds 
 
 out of Principles that are 
 knownc by the light of a 
 
 * Hot inodo fatra Do a rind eel Scientid ; quid prize* 
 dit ex Principiis notis Lumine fuperioris Scienti 
 qu£ fcilicet eft Scientid ‘Dei & Beatsrttm, T ho. p d 
 i.q. 1. a. 2. And what fayes A.(f . now to this of 
 t/lquinas} Is it not «Ieare in him, that this Princi«* 
 pie. The Scriptures are the Word of Cjod , of Divine 
 and ir, oft Infallible Credit , is a 'Vrtcognitum in the 
 knowledge of Divinity, andproveable in a fuperiour 
 Science, namclv, the Knowledge cf God 3 and the B/effef 
 in Heaven? Yesjfo dcare, that (as I told you he would) 
 
 R Superiotir 
 
 \ 
 
A. C. confefles it, p. 5 1 . Bat he adds : That becaufe no 
 ma# ordinarily fees thts Troofe, therefore we mufi go ei- 
 ther to Chrfft,wbo faw it clearely 1 Or to the Apofi/es, to 
 jr horn it was clearely revealed . ; or to tkemyvho by Succef- 
 fton received it from the Trime Seers. So now feecaule 
 Chrifi vs afcended, and the ApoiUes gone into the mini • 
 ber of the Rlejfed, and made in a higher Degree partakers 
 of their knowledge ; therefore we mulf now onely goe 
 unto their Succejfours, and borrow light from the Tradi- 
 tion of the prefent Church. For that we mull do ; And 
 ‘‘cis fo farre well. But chat we mnft relie upon this Tradi- 
 tion, as Divine , and Infallible ,and able to breed inm Di- 
 vine, and Infallible Faith, as A.C. adds, p, 51, 52. is a 
 Proportion, which in the times of the Primitive (fhurch 
 would have beene accounted very dangerous, as indeed it 
 is. For I would faine know, why leaning too much upon 
 Tradition may not miilead Chrillians, as well as it did 
 thelewes. But they, faith S.Hilarie , Traditions fa* 
 v&re Legisprac ept a tranfgre f si funt: Can 9 14. in S.Mat . 
 Yet to this height are They of Rome now growne. That 
 the Traditions of the prefent Church are infallible : And 
 by out-facing the Truth, lead many after them. And as it 
 i sfer. 5.31* The Prophets prophefte untruths , ani the 
 Triefls receive gifts , and my people delight therein , 
 what will become of this in the end ? 
 
 f Non creditur Dens ejfe Author hujus Scientit , quia 
 Homines hoc tefiati funt in quantum Homines nudo TefH - 
 rnonio Humano • fed in quantum circa eos ejfulfit virtue 
 Divina . Ft itaDeus <is b & fibi ipji in eis TcfFmomum 
 perhibuit. Hen, a Gani. Sum . 1. A.$*q.$, 
 
 Superiour Knowledge ? 
 which is the Knowledge 
 of and the <r . Blejsed 
 
 in Heaven. In this 
 Supenour Science > 
 this Principle , The 
 Scriptures are the Ora- 
 cles of God , is more 
 then evident in full 
 light. This Supcriour 
 Science delivered this 
 Principle in full re- 
 vealed Light to the 
 Trophets, and Apoflles . 
 t This Infallible Light 
 of this Principle made 
 their ^Anthoriiy deriva- 
 tively Divine. By the 
 fame Divine Authority 
 they wrote, and deli- 
 
 vered the Scripture to 
 the Church. There- 
 fore from them immediately the Church received the 
 Scripture , and that uncorrupt , though not in the 
 fame cleareneffe of Light, which they had. And yet 
 fince no fufficient Reafon hath, or can be given, that 
 
 * (forruwpi non pojfunt , quia in manibus funt omnium $ubftantiall 
 
 Chrifianorum ; Et quifquis hoc primitus aufm effet , 
 multorum Codicum vetujHorumcollatione confutaretur. 
 
 JM oxime , quia non unh lingua , fed multis continetur 
 Scriptura. NonnutLa ant cm Codicum mendafitates, velde 
 Antiquioribus , vel de Lingua, price dent e emendantur • 
 
 S' Aug. Lf 32 . cont. Faujium, c.i 6 . 
 
 thing it hath beene 
 * Corrupted , it re- 
 maines firme at this 
 
 day , and that proved 
 in the moll Supreme 
 Science; and therefore now to bee juppofed (at 
 leaft by all Chriftians ) That the Scripture is the 
 W°jd °f So $ my Anfwer is good , even in 
 
 ftri4tneffc 3 
 
§. i8. nj 
 
 ftri Stneflfe , Thai this ‘'Principle is to be fuppofed in this 
 Difpute. 
 
 Befidcs, the Iewes never had, nor can have any N u m. 5 . 
 other Proofe , That the Old Te ft ament it the Word of 
 God y then we have of the New. For theirs was de- 
 livered by JA4ofes,and the r Prophets • and ours was de- 
 livered by the Apo files } which were Prophets too. The 
 Iewes did believe their Scripture by a Divine AuthorL 
 ty: For fo the Iewes argue themfelves : 3 SJob.p, We 3 s. iohn p. 2 <?. 
 know that Cj-od fpake with JMofes. b ^And that therefore s^ioh^Tfa Z 
 they could no more erre in following Mofes y then they could non magis err are 
 in following God himfelfe. And our Saviour fccmes to 
 
 1 t ' ^ r 
 
 inferre as much, c S Job. y. where he expoftulates 
 with the Iewes thus : If you believe not Mofes hit yurentur. 
 Writings , how fbould you believe Me ? Now how s,Ioi *S*47» 
 did the Iewes know that God fpake to Mofes ? 
 
 How ? why apparently, the fame way that is before , H 
 fetdowne. Fir ft by Tradition. So S . d (hryf oftome : $. foh. ‘ 9 . 7 * ** 
 We know why) 'By who ft witnejfe do you know ? GBy : 
 
 theTeftimonyof our Ancestors. But he fpeakes not of <**&!** 
 their immediate Anceftors , but their *T rime , which 
 were Prophets , and whofe Teftimony was Divine^ 
 into which (namely their Writings) the Iewes did 
 Refolve their faith. And even that Scripture of the 
 Old Teftament was a c Light y and a fbining Light too : c 2 . s.Peta.i$: 
 And therefore could not but be fufficient, when Tra- 
 dition had gone before. And yet though the Iewes 
 entred this way to their Beliefe of the Scripture, they 
 do not fay, { ^Audivitntis , We have heard that God /^ Chryf * uh * 
 (pike to Mofes , but We kno w it . So they Refolved their clvw/. ilixpf 
 Faith higher, and into a more inward Principle, then Act 077 oiJkt/Sfj. 
 an Hare to their immediate <Ance5lors y and their Tradi- 
 tion. And I would willingly learne of you , if you 
 can fliew it me , where ever any one lew difputing 
 with another about their Law , did put the other to 
 
 R 1 prove, 
 
12 ^ 
 
 Nu 
 
 §. i p. 
 
 M, 
 
 §Jp. 
 
 prove, that the Old Tefl ament was the Word of God. 
 Bi t they ftill ^ppofed it. And when others put 
 the* uctheii Foofe, this way they went. And yet 
 you lay : 
 
 • 
 
 p. That no other jdn /W r could he made , hut hy 
 admitting fomeWordof God unwritten } to of- 
 Jure us of this Point. 
 
 B* I thinke, I have {hewed , that my Anfwer is 
 good y and that no other Anfwer need be made. If 
 there were need, I make no Queftion, but another 
 Anfwer might be made to ajfure us of this Point ^though 
 we did not admit of any Word of God unwritten. I lay y to 
 afiure us ; and you exprefle no more. If you had 
 laid, to aflure us by Divine Faith , your Argument 
 had beene the ftronger. But if you fpeake of Affu- 
 ranee oncly in the generally Imufithen tell you nd 
 it is the great advantage which the Qmrch of ift 
 hath againfl: Infidels) a man may be a/dured , ay 
 infallibly afiured by Ecclefiajlicall , and Hum # ne 
 Proofe. Men that never law r l{ome y may before, an ... 
 infallibly believe, Thatfuch aCitie there is, by Hiflo - 
 ricall y and acquired Faith . And if Confent of Hu- 
 mane Storie can aflure me this , why fhould not 
 Confent of Church-ftorie afliire me the other, Tha 
 Chrijl, and his JpoHles delivered this Body of Scripture 
 as the Oracles of God* For lewesy Enemies to Chriffthcy 
 beare witnefle to the Old Tejlament • and Chriftians 
 
 through almofl all Nations t give 
 in evidence to both Old and New. 
 And no Pagan, or other Enemies 
 of Chriftianity , can give foch a 
 Worthy and Confenting Tefti- 
 monie for any Authorme upon 
 
 which 
 
 t Fanta hominum , & temp or urn confers 
 ftone firmatum. S.Ku^.L.deMor.Ec- 
 clef.Cath.c.'ig. Ii Libri qiiocpiio modo fe 
 babent , J^antti tamen C E) ivinaxtan Rerptm 
 pleni prope tot ins generis hum am Con - 
 fefsione dijfamantur , &c. S. Aug. de util, 
 cred. c. 7. L. 13. cont . Fauft. c, 15. 
 
§. ip. 
 
 I \ 
 
 which they rely, or almoft for any Principle which 
 they have, as the Scripture hath gained to it feif. And 
 as is the Teftimony which it receives, above all 
 * Writings of all Rations ,• fo here is afliirance in a 
 great meafure, without any DiYme Authority , in a 
 Word written, or Vnwritten. A great afturance , 
 and it is Infallible too • Only then we muft diftin- 
 guifti Infallibility. For firft a thing may be preferred 
 as an infallible ObjeB of Beliefe,when it is true and re- 
 maines fo.For Truth qua tails, as it is Truth, can not 
 deceive. Secondly , a thing is faid to be Infallible 5 
 when k is not only true,and remains fo,adually,but 
 when it is of fuch invariable conftancy , and upon 
 fuch ground, as that no Degree of falfhood at any 
 time, in any refp^dl can fall upon it. Certain it is, that 
 by Humane Authority ^fonfent^ and Troofe a man may 
 be allured infallibly, that the Scripture is the Word 
 of God. by an acquired Habit of Faith, cut non fuleft 
 falfum , tinder which nor Error, nor falfhood is : But 
 he cannot be allured infallibly, by Divine Faith, z cui 
 jube/Je no ipotejl falfum , into which no falfhood can 
 come, but by a Divine Teftimony; This Teftimo- 
 ny is abfolute in Scripture it felfe, delivered by the 
 Apoflks for the Word of God, and fo fealed to our 
 Soules by the operation of the Holy Ghoft. That 
 which makes way for this as an h IntroduBion and out- 
 ward motive, is the Tradition of the prefent Church ; but 
 dwt neither (imply Divine, norfufficientaloiie, into 
 whicn we may refolve our Faith, but only as is f before 
 expreffed. 
 
 And now to come clofe to the Particular. The 
 time was,before this miferabk (/^vztinthe Church of 
 Chrift (whichlthinke no true Chriftiancan looke 
 upon, but with a bleeding heart) that you and Wee 
 were all. of One ISeUefe : That beliefe was tainted, in 
 
 R 3 ■ trad 
 
 n < 
 
 2. jwj 
 
 * Super omnes 
 omnium Gentii* 
 Liter as . S. Aug. 
 1 1 >de Civit.Dei 
 c . Ii 
 
 a Jncertum efife 
 non pot eft hos e fi- 
 fe Libros (fiano*- 
 nicos.'Wd.VoEt. 
 fid.l,2.a,2.c,20 , 
 
 b Canus. Loc.l . 2 
 c, 8. fetch Eccle - 
 ft am Cauf am fi- 
 ne qua non. 
 
 t §.!&' 
 
 N U M. 2* 
 
u6 
 
 winter omnes pens 
 conftat^aut certe 
 id quod fatis eft , 
 inter me 0- illos , 
 cum quibtts nunc 
 ajritur, convenit 
 hoc . 0 c. Sic in 
 alia Caufd cont t 
 Adanichaos , S. 
 Au pL.de Mor. 
 JEccl. Cath.c ^ 4 , 
 
 H<tref.c, 2 . 
 
 
 * Contr. Epift. 
 Ennd,c t ^ % 
 
 §• 
 
 tra£t and corruption of times, very deepely. A Di- 
 vifion was made ; yet fo, that both Tarts held the 
 Creed , and other Common Principles of Beliefe, 
 Of thefe, this was one of thegreatefl,tTW the Scrip- 
 ture is the Word of God • For our beliefe of all things 
 contained in it, depends upon it. Since this Divili- 
 on, there hath beene nothing done by us to difere- 
 dit this Ti inciple . Nay, We have given it all honour, 
 and aferibed unto it more fufficiency, even to the con - 
 tabling of all things neceffary to jafaation, with * Satis fu- 
 perque, enough and more then enough * which your 
 leives have not done, do not. And for begetting 
 and letling a Beliefe of this Principle, we goe the 
 fame way with you, and a better b elides. The fame 
 TVay with you: Becaufewe allow the Tradition of the 
 prelent Church to be the firft inducemg Motive to 
 embrace this Principle • onely we cannot goe fo farre 
 in this way as you, to make the prelent Tradition al- 
 wayes an Infallible Word of God unwritten ; For this 
 is to goe fo farre in, till you be out of the way. 
 For Tradition is but a Lane in the Church • it hath an 
 end, not only to receive us in, but another after, to 
 let us out, into more open, and richer ground. And 
 Wego a better way then you : Becaufe after we are mov- 
 ed, and prepared, and induced by Tradition , we re- 
 folve our Faith into that Written Word, and God 
 delivering it ,* in which we Unde materially , though 
 notin Termes , the very Tradition ,that led us thither. 
 And lo we are lure by Divine Authority that we arc 
 in the way^becaule at the end we find the way prov- 
 ed. And doe whatcan be done, you can never fettle 
 the Faith of man about this great Principle, till you 
 rife to greater affurance, then the Prelent Church 
 * alone can give. And therefore once againe to that 
 known place of S.Augufline * The words of the 
 
 Father 
 
§. 20 . ujr 
 
 Father arc, Kfi commoVer et^Vnleffe the i Authority of the 
 Church motived me : but not alone, but with other Mo- 
 tives ; elfe it were no tcommoVere^ to move together. And 
 the other Motives are P s efolvers i though this be Lea- 
 der. Now fince we goe the farm way With you, fo 
 farreas you go z right ; and a better way then you, 
 where you go wrong ; we need not admit any other 
 Word of God 3 then We doe. And this ought to re- 
 maine, zs&TrefuppoJed (principle among all Chrifti- 
 ans 3 and not fo much as come into this Queflion^bmt 
 the fuffickncy of Scripture betTk>eeneyou } and us . But yo« 
 fay that 
 
 p. From this the Lady called us y and de firing to 
 heare 3 PVhether the Pifbop would grant the Pg- 
 mane Church to be the pight Church ? The B. 
 granted , That it T Vas. 
 
 B One occafion which mooved Tertullian to ^ u ^ : °f 
 write his Booke dePnefcript.adverfus Hareticos , was, 
 
 That he* faw little or no Profic come by Difputati - 'VmtUn Sud* 
 
 o i j i r i_ j mar, Lib- —'Ui* 
 
 ons, ourethe Ground was the lame then, and now. dens Difyutauo- 
 It was not to deny, that Deputation is an Opening of tihu ant 
 the Vnderftanding a lifting out of Truth ; itwa s P* r0m P ro ft c *i 
 not to affirm e 3 that any fetch Difquintion is in, and 
 of it felfe unprofitable. If it had, S. Stephen 9 would 
 not have difputed with the Cyrenians ,nor S .Paul with the 
 h Grecians fir.ft, and then with thclimw *, and all Com- 
 mas, No fure : it was fome Abufein the Difputants, 
 that fruitrated the good of theDifputation. And one 
 Abule in the Di/putants js a pejolution to hold their own , 
 though it be hy imworthy means find difparagenwit d of truth* 
 
 And fo I findeit here. For as it is true, that this Que- 
 ftion was asked • fo it is altogether falfe, that it was 
 
 asked 
 
 b A&s.9.29^ 
 c A6bip.i7»' 
 
 d c ftebiiitdt& 
 
 gmerofa indefo 
 conjeEla in ar^u* 
 
 tias, 
 

 
 Nu 
 
 M« 2. 
 
 IlS §*20. 
 
 . TT , ^ r . . asked in this* forme, or foAnfwrr - 
 
 * Here A t C. hath nothing to hyjwtthat , . . ' , v crC-rr 
 
 the leiuitc did not affirms. That the La^ ed. 1 here is a great deaie or Dirre- 
 dj ashed this gueftton m this or ary other rencefefpecially as $ omani fts han- 
 
 prectfe forms. No ? why chc words pre- u , * n - r j A\ t x 
 
 ceding ^re the Tefuites own. Therefore, u»C tllC QjlCltiOfl Oi theChuTch) 
 
 if chcle were no: ch t Ladies words , he between 1 he Church find A Church- 
 
 wrongs her, not I h™. all d there is fome , between e a 
 
 Tiue Church and a %ight Church .• which is the 
 word you ufe , but no man elfe that I know; I am 
 fure not I. 
 
 For The Church may import in our Language , 
 The only true Church; and perhaps (as fome of you 
 feeme to make it) the 1{oot and the Ground of the Qitbo - 
 like . And, this I never did grant of the %omane Church , 
 nor ever meane to doc. But A fhurch can imply no 
 more^ then that it is a member of the Wide. And 
 this I never did, nor ever will deny, if h fall not abfo- 
 lately a'frjy from Cirri jl. That it is a True Church I grant- 
 ed alfo • but not a TjgJ't ( as you impole upon ie. ) 
 For Ens a ndFb #?w, ’Beiwand Tine , are convert bie 
 one with another- and every thing that hath a ic- 
 ing, h truly that Bern*, which it is, in truth of Subfiance} 
 But this word (Rjght is not io ufed, but is refer d 
 more properly to perfeBion in Conditions : And in this 
 fenfe, every thing that hath a true, and reall Seijis 
 not by and by %ight in the Conditions of it. A man 
 that is molt difhoneffand unworthy the name, a ve- 
 ry Thiefe ( if you will ) is a True man , in dnenjerity of 
 His EJfence , as he is a Creature endued "frith ^ eafon * for 
 this none can fteale from him, nor he from himfelfe ' 
 but Death : But he is not therefore a ( I(ight , or an up* 
 right man. And a Church that is exceeding corrupt , 
 both in Maimers and DoBrine , and fo a dilhoncur to 
 the Name, is yet a True Church in the Verity of EJ - 
 fence , as a Church is a Company of men, which 
 profefie the Faith of Chrijl } and are Baptized into His 
 
 Name: 
 

 §, 20 . 
 
 Name : But yet it is not therefore a Pjght Church, c icher 
 in Doflrine , or Manners . it may he you meant cun- 
 ningly to llip in this word (f^V/;r 3 that 1 might at un- 
 wares grant it Orthodox But I was not fo to be caught- 
 For I know well, that Orthodox Chrifians are keepers of 
 integrity, \ and followers of right things ( fo 3 S ^b- 'Integrimhc*- 
 fiine) of which, the Church of at this day is nci- fi ode T & rc&a 
 ther. In this lenfe then no Right , that l s } no Orthodox 
 Church at 'If owe. 
 
 And yet no Newes it is, that I granted the Romano N u m . 3 . 
 Church to be a True Church .For fo much ve ; b Hooker / i Junius /.i cle £c . 
 
 ry learned Proreflants b have acknowledge c xj k F alltmtur qui Scctefiam re- 
 ed before me- and the Truth cannot deny" ; l fT us m ea cJi 
 
 lt« Bor that Chuich, which receives the ■ ,Catholicam 3 vcl fanaejus mem* 
 Scripture as a Rule of Faith, though but ^ rtiTn \ Nay the very Separacilb 
 
 as a partial! and impeded! Rule • and uk called, \a chriflian p lea, 
 both the Sacraments as Inurumentall Printed 1617..P. 123. &c. 
 
 Caufes, and Seales of Grace, though they adde more, ' Sl tam f n t i f ri f 
 and mifufe thefe-yet cannot but be a True Church in of- pf TqJdZmen- 
 fence. Ho w it is in Manners and 'Doctrine, I would you tis accedat, fine 
 
 would looke to it with a fingle eye, ' For if Piety and a TATufZfii 
 (peaceable mind he notjoyned to a good mderfldnding , nothing intelligi potefit. S . 
 can be knowne in thefe mat things. ffifi ue ]fi‘ 1 ' 
 
 J 0 0 , Lred. c. 18. 
 
 Here A C. tells us T That the left Cue doth not fag that N u m . 4. 
 the Lady asked this Quejlion in this, or any other precif ? forme y1 ’ C -L 5 3 * 
 of 'toords-ffidut jaith,the Ie/uite is Jure y her dejirc Iras to know 
 of me, whether I would grant the Ppmane Church to be the right 
 Church ? And how was the Ieluite fare the Lady defired 
 to heare this from me? Why, AC. tells us that too. For f c 
 he add csfChat the lej Hite had particularly fpohen with her be- 
 fore 5 and wijhed her to inf ft upon that Poynt. 
 
 Where you may fee, and’tis fit the Clergie d And after a. c. faith againe 
 of England ftiould confider with what 
 
 cunning Adverfaries they have to deale, be fiar is filed Vbith hearing what g 
 
 who can finde a way to d prepare their Im1 So t,e!, ’ :e the y wke Ou- 
 
 1 alius 
 
I 
 
 130 
 
 §.20 
 
 »C 54 * 
 
 f §.20,2V[.I. 
 
 , Vifciples , and inftruEl them be - 
 
 t ion before hand for that too, That what r 1 j 1 * n* , 
 
 ever we lay (unleffe we grant what they fore band Upon what PojntS tO 111- 
 
 would have ) their Prolelytea (hall not flfl^ that fc U may With more 
 
 ne iacisfied wnhit. e af c Hide that into their hearts and 
 
 confer nces y which ihou!d never come there. And 
 this once known, 1 hope they will the better pro- 
 vide again it it. But A.C. goes on^and tells u sfThat cer - 
 tai ily by my Anlwcr, the Ladies defire ?nujl needs be to 
 beare from me, not whether the (fhurch of RymeWcre a right 
 Chuuh <jrc. but whether I 'Would grant that there is but one 
 holy Catholike Church and whether the Romane Church(that is, 
 not only that which is in the City , or Vi ocefje ofRgme, but all 
 that agreed with it ) be not it . Aboil: A Church, and The 
 Churchy have laid enough t before nd (hall not repeat. 
 Nor is there any need I fhould. F A.C. would have it 
 The Church, The One, Holy, Catholike arch. But this can- 
 
 not be granted, take the Roman, hurch , in what fenfe 
 they pleale,in City, ox Diocejje,ox a. t hat agree with if. Yet 
 
 howfoever bei re I leave this , 1 
 muft acquaint the Reader with a 
 pcxicCtlefuitifm .In all the Primitive 
 Times of the Church, a Han , or a Fa- 
 mily, or a Nationall Church were ac- 
 counted %ight^ and Orthodox , as 
 they agreed w lh the Catholike Church • 
 
 But the Catholike was never then 
 Anus. Cypnan imployed his Legates^ al- meafured or judged by Man, F ami - 
 
 donius and Fortunatus , not to bring the / L ° ■ 1 rr . 
 
 Catholike Church o the Communion of ly,QT lKatlOn. DUt llOW 111 thcieju- 
 
 Rome, hue Rome ro the Catholike iteshCw{ch.o\c,Tl?eOneHoly,*Ca- 
 
 I 7 thoake Church mult, bee meaiured 
 
 by that which is in the City or VC 
 ocejfe of ( Rome ) or of them which 
 agreed with ir, and not (Byrne by 
 the Catholike. For fo A. C. fayes 
 exprefly , 7 be La ly would know of me, not whether that were 
 
 the 
 
 *And though Stapleton to magnifie the 
 Church oi%omc is pleated to fay ; Apud 
 veter wo eodem h# bit a f uit Ecclejia Ro- 
 mans Jr Ecclefia Catholic a : yet lie is lo 
 model! as to give this Realon of it : J^nici 
 (jus Commmio er fit evident er or certifsi - 
 me cum tota Carholicd. Releft. Coti.l.q. 
 5. A. 3. ( Lo, The Communion of the 
 .:ie was then with the Catholike 
 Church , not of the Catholike with ic .) 
 
 j" — 
 
 cleft* unit atem J if it Corporis membra 
 compovt rer r, c c. No w the Members of 
 this Rent and torne Body were they of 
 Ro?nez\\^n in an openSchitmr betweene 
 Corneitus and Novation, S. Cypr. L . 2. 
 Epijt.io, 
 
§• r ji 
 
 ^ Catholike Qmrch to Dohtch R^ome agreed • to whether that 
 were not the Holy Qatholike Church , ztoV/? Kith 
 %orne. So upon the matter, belike the Chriftian Faith 
 was committed to the Cuftodyof the Romane, not 
 of the Catholike Church • And a man cannot agree with 
 the Qatholike Qhurch of Chrift ( in this new Dotftrine of 
 AX.) unlefle he agree with the Church of Rome - but 
 if he agree with that, all's fafe, and he is as Orthodox, 
 as he need be. 
 
 But A . C is yet troubled about the forme of the 
 Ladies Queftion, And he will not have it. That She de~ ^ u M * ** 
 fired to know , whether 1 Should grant the Romane Church to • 
 be the Rjght Church ? Though thefc be her words, ac- 
 cording to the Iefuites owne fetnng downe, but he 
 thinkes the Queftion was, Whether the Church of Rome 
 was not the Rjght Church ? not Be hot , but D>as not. Was 
 not ? That is , 'has not once or in time pajl the Right C 
 
 Church before Luther and others made a breach from it ? 
 
 Why, truly A Q. needed not have troubled himfelfc 
 halfe fo much about this.For let him take his Choi fc. 
 
 It lhall be all one to me , whether the Queftion were 
 asked by Be, or by Was } For the Qmrch of Rome nei- 
 ther is, nor was the Right Church , as the Lady defired to 
 heare. A Particular Church, it is, and Do as, and in lome 
 times rtght, and in lome times wrong, and then in lome 
 things right, and in fome things wrong : But The Right 
 Church , or The Holy Catholike Qhurch it never was , nor 
 ever can be. And therefore was not fuch before Lu- 
 ther, and Others either left it, or were thruft from it. 
 
 A Particular Church it was • But then A. C is not di- 
 ftindt enough here neither. For the Church of Rome 
 both was and was not a Right, or Orthodox Church 
 before Luther made a Breach from it. For the word 
 Ante, Before, may lookc upon Rome , and that Church 
 a great way off, ox long before ; and then in the Prime 
 
 S z times 
 
 
and a tainted Church 
 farretrom being Right. 
 And yet both tbefe 
 times Before Luther 
 made his Breach. So here 
 
 the whole time before 
 Luther, in part of which 
 time that Church of 
 Rome was Ri'jht, and in 
 
 times obit, it Was a raoPc Rigjit and Orthodox Church. 
 But it may looke alfo nearer home, and upon the im- 
 mediate times before Luther, or fome Ages before that • 
 
 * Cum htfimti Abufx Schemata quoq; & Harefes per in ^ tVxYl tS 
 
 totum nunc Chrifiianuc} Orbem invalefcant a Ec c Ic jtam Rgme was a (->01 1 Up C 
 
 E)ei legitimd indigere %eformati°ne ncmini non apertum 
 erit. Pet. de Aliaco Card. Canter acenfis L.de %efor . Ec- 
 cleft a. And if Sdiifmes and Hereiies did then invade the 
 whole Chriftian world, let A. C. confider how %ome 
 heaped free. And I thinke Comer acenfis was in this Pro- 
 pheticall. For lixty yeares and more before Luther was 
 borne, and To before the great troubles which have fmee 
 fallen upon all Chriftendome, he ufedthele words in the . f n ] i 1 ___ 
 
 Booke which himfelfc delivered up in the Councell of A. C. lhouid m.V t DlcOC 
 
 Confirmee : Nift celeriter fiat Reformatio, audeo dicer e more diftillCt. FortllC 
 
 quod licet ntagna Jint, qu&videmm , t amen in brevi , in- wprc j includes 
 
 comparand iter majora videvimus . Et pojt ijta tonitrua 1 
 
 tam horrenda, majora alia audiemus Crc.QAva.Ldc P^sfor . 
 
 Eccle. And it will hardly iincke into any mans judge- 
 ment, that fo great a manias Tet. de zslliaco was in that 
 Church, fhould Ipeake thus,il lie did not lee fome errors 
 
 in the Dobtrine or that Church, as well as in Manneis, r vvai i\ r ut-\ anu iii 
 
 Nav Caffander though he livedand dyed in tlie Commu- i v “* i c • 
 
 nion of the Church of Rome y yet found fault with feutie of Other pait WliereOr It 
 
 was wrong. But A. C. 
 addes yet, That 1 fuf peel- 
 ed the Lady Tbould inf err e 
 if once that Church were 
 Right, what hindred it now to be ? Since that did not depart 
 from the T rot efiant Churchy but the Trot eft ant Church from 
 it. Truly, I neither fufpedted the Inference would be 
 made, nor feare it, when it is made* For us no Nt wes 
 that any Particular Church, Romanes well as another, 
 may once have beene Right , and afterwards Strong 
 and in farre worfe cafe.And fo it was in Rome after the 
 t S.Mat. 1 3.25: enemy had J owed tares among the wheatBS Mtf.13.But whe. 
 
 *YqkA. C. knowes well , what Itrange Doctrines are tiler thefe Tares Were 
 charged upon fome Popes. And all ‘Bellarmines labour , 
 though great and full of art , is not able to wafh them 
 cleane. B Alarm. L’^.d\%om. Pont.c. 2 . &c. Et Papas 
 quo f dam graves err ores femindffe in Ecclejia Chrifti lu- 
 ce clarius efi. Et pro hat ur d laco. Almain. Opufc.de 
 .Autho. Scelefuz. c. lo* And Cafander ipeakes it out more 
 plainly Vtinm ////(He fpeaks of the Buhops and Reftors 
 
 her Dofitrines. Confulta. Artie. 2 1 . &. 22. And P ope 
 Julius the third Profefled at B omnia , in Sacramentorum 
 Ecclefa mindierium innumerahiles x/Sbufus irrcpfijje, 
 Efpenicaeus in Tit. 1 . and yet he was one of the Bnhops 
 nay the chiefc Legat in the Councell of Trent, 
 
 A.C.p, 54. 
 
 fowen, while their ®i- 
 fhops flept • or whether 
 * They themfelves d;d 
 not helpetofow them, 
 
 is 
 

 
 2J. 
 
 in the Rom-ine 
 Church) aqmbus 
 hac Irfbrimtio acci~ 
 p m:la tjjet, nonlpfi 
 barum Supcrftitio- 
 nuin Au&ores efi 
 lent : vel ce,tc eas 
 in ArurnU bommurA 
 fimplicium ali qua ;* - 
 do qutesius caufd 
 mimin', C.iifaiui, 
 Co/ijhha. Art, %u 
 vefus fi/ion* 
 
 §. 21 „ 
 N u.m. i 
 
 is too large a Difquifition for this Place, So though 
 it were once Tjg ht^ yet the Tares which grow thick 
 init,aretheCaule why tis not fo now. And then, 
 though that Church did not depart from the Trote- 
 jiants Church • yet if it gave great and juft Caufe for the 
 Troteftant Church to depart from the Errours of it, 
 while it in feme Particulars departed from the Truth 
 of Chrift, it comes all to one for this Particular^ That 
 the ^omane Church which Tbas once right , is no)V become 
 wrong; by embracing Superftition^and hr our. 
 
 7 *5 
 
 V V I f w I *' » 
 
 p. Farther he corfejfed, That Trot eft ants had made 
 a Tent and Dcvijion fmn it. 
 
 P. I confeffe I could here be heartily 3 angry , but 
 that 1 have refolved in 
 
 handling matters of a Grave emnino crimen, fed defen r tonem longinquam non 
 
 ,, requirtt, fat is eft enim ncaare\ ft cut pro Scciefia olim 0 
 
 fteltgwn to leave all gall Aug< de VtiL Cre d. c. 5 . 
 out of my Ink y For I 
 
 never granted, that the Tomane Church either is or h H T tc , re ‘ 
 was the right Church. Tis too true indeed, that EccUfiadidtur , 
 there is a mijerable Tent in the Church, and I make no e ]ft^ 
 
 Queftion but the belt men doemoft bemoane it ; co i ere delerZs. 
 nor is he a Chriftian,t\ut would not have Fnity y might Calv./^.c.i 
 he have it with Truth . But Ineverfaid, nor thought §. 7 . 
 
 that the Trot eft ants c Re tie fctM nosfcciffe reredendo d vobis,&c. Lucif.A.c^ 
 
 made this Tent The Noncon-veniendocum H<treticis. He ipeakes of the Ar~ 
 r> r r \ o i r • rians, aqd I lhall not compare you with them, nor give 
 v^aule ot the ochlj me IS an y Offence that way. I (hall onely draw the gerierall 
 
 yours • for you thruft argument ffom it, thus : If the Orthodoxe did well in 
 r 5 i p departing from the Arrians, then the Schilme was to be 
 
 US trom YOU • becaule imputed to the Arrians; although the OrthodoXe did de* 
 we called for Crutlgznd part from them. Otherwife if the Orthodoxe hadbeene 
 f a 1 r c „ guilev of the Schilme, he could not have (aid, Rette feia* 
 'Kedrefle of Abufes. F or a % s ^ reeedindo ’ For lt cannot be that a man ihould 
 
 c Schijtne mud: needs be do well ill making a Schilme. There may be therefore a 
 theirs, whofc the Caufe wl ] ich “V rres not th ? blams of 
 
 c , . , V- ' Schilme; And that is, when Doctrines are taught contra* 
 
 Or it i§. The Woe runs ry to the Catholike Faith, 
 
 S j full 
 
§• 20 . 
 
 • 7- full out of the mouth of *Cbrift, eyer againft him, that 
 giyes the Offence j not againft him that takes it , even 
 Butyou have, by this carriage, given me juft caufe, ne- 
 ver to treat with you, or your like, but before a Iudge t 
 or a Iyrie . 
 
 But here A. C. tels me, 1 had no caufe to be angry , 
 S 6, either with thejefuite , or my felfe. Not with the lefuite , 
 for he writ downe my words in frefh memory , and upon 
 fpeciall notice taken of the Raff age, and that I did fay either 
 iifdem, or aequipollentibus verbis , either in thefe , or 
 equiyalent words , 7 hat the Prot eft ants did make the 
 ent,or Diyifton from theRomane Church . What, did 
 the lefuite fet downe my words in frefli memory,and 
 upon fpeciall notice taken , and were they fo few as 
 thefe, The RrcteUants did make the Sc hi/me- and yet 
 was his memory fo fhort, that he cannot tell, whether 
 I uttered this iifdem, or aqmpoBentib us yerbis ? Well, I 
 would A. C . and his Fellowes would leave this Art 
 of theirs, and in Conference ( which *they are fo ready 
 to call for) impofeno more upon other men, then 
 they utter. And you may obferve too, that after all 
 this full Aftertion, that I fpake this iifdem, or aquipoilen - 
 tibia yerbis y A.Q concludes thus - The lefuite tooke 
 fpeciall notice in frejb memory , and is fure he related, at 
 leaf in fenfe, juft as it was uttered. What’s this. At leaf 
 in fenfe juft as it was uttered ? Do not thefe two Enter- 
 feire , and fhew the lefuite to be upon his fhuffling 
 pace? For if it were juft as it was uttered , then it was 
 in the very forme of words too, not in fenfe onely. 
 And if it were but Atleaftin fenfe , then when A.C. 
 hath made the moft of it , it was not juft as ’twos ut- 
 tered * . Befides/tt leaf! in fenfe , doth not tell us in whofe 
 fenfe it Was. For if A. C. meane the lefuite s fenfe of 
 it, he may make what fenfe he pleafes of his ownc 
 wo^ds ; but he rauft impofe no fenfe of his upon my 
 
 words. 
 

 §. ZI 
 
 l V 
 
 words. But as he muft leave my words to my felfe, 
 fo when my words are uttered, or written, he muft 
 leave their (enfe either to me,or tothat genuine Conftru- 
 ft ion, which an Ingenuous Reader can make of them. 
 
 And what my words of Grant were , I have before 
 exprefled, and their fenfe too. 
 
 Not 'with my felfe: That’s the next. For yf. C. Num. 3. 
 fayes, ’tit truth, and that the world knowes it, that the A ' c -?'$ 6 - 
 [ Vrotefiants did depart from the Church of tf^ome } and got 
 the name of Trot eft ants , by protejiing again ft it. No, 
 
 J. C . by your leave , this is not truth neither ; and 
 therefore I had reafon to be angry with my felfe , had 
 I granted it. For, fir ft , the Troteftatits did not depart: 
 
 For departure is voluntary, fo was not theirs. I iay 3 not 
 theirs , taking their *wbole Tody and Caufe together. For 
 that fome among them were peeYifh , and tome igno- 
 rantly jealous, is neither to be doubted , nor is there 
 Danger in confeffing it. Your Tody is not fo perfed: 
 
 (I wot well) but that many aiiiongft you are as pet* 
 tijh , and as ignorantly zealous j as any of Ours, You mutt 
 not fuffer for thefe • nor We for thofe 5 nor flhould the 
 Church of Chrift for either. Next, the Trotefiants did 
 not get that Name by Trotefting againft the Church of 
 Tome, but by T rotefling (and that when nothing elle 
 
 would ferve ) t againft her Err ours, f Conventm fmt Ordinum Imperii Spi~ 
 &C Superftitions. Do you but remove r<e. Ibi ‘Dvcretumfattum efl.ut Edtttuw 
 
 them from the Church of <^me 
 
 and our Troteftation is ended , and in integrum reftituMtnr (Sc fie nulla om- 
 the too Nor is Trots- 
 
 Jtatioit it lelre luch an unheard or ch.i$ 29. Et bine mum pervulgutum 
 
 thing in the very heart of %elmon . Proteftantiura mmm. Se. CalyiT. 
 
 ^ 5 _ 1 , 1 r L nil Chron.ad.An. 1529. This Proteiktion 
 
 For the Sacraments Doth or the Uld therefore was not fimply againft the Ro- 
 
 and NeW Teftament are called by mane Church, but againft foe EdtEt, 
 
 OJ 1 r r n 1 O' which was for the reftoring or all things 
 
 your OWne Schoole , t tfiblt vgntS to their former eftate, without any Re® 
 
 protejiing the Faith. Now if the formation. 
 
 Sacraments 
 
 
 
15 6 
 
 §.’2I. 
 
 4. c. 
 Num. 4. 
 
 Sacraments be froteflantia , Signes Protefling, why 
 may not men alfo, and without all offence, be called 
 Protellants , fince by receiving the true Sacraments, and 
 by refilling them which are corrupted , they doe but 
 fVotefi the fincerity of their Faith againfl: that Dodtri- 
 ‘guiim homo nail Corruption, which hath invaded the great; Sacra- 
 fidtm fuam fro- mento f the Etichariji, and other Parts of 'Religion? Ef- 
 pecially ? fince they are meiFvhich must protejl them Faith 
 by the/eVifible Signes and Sacraments. 
 
 But A. C. goes oil; and will needs have it ; that 
 the Froteftants were the Caufe of the Schifme . For 
 ( faith he) though the Church of %ome did thruft them 
 from her by Excommunication, yet they had firjl divided, 
 themf elves by obflinate holding , and teaching opinions con- 
 trary to the Ffomane Faith, and TraHice of the Church , 
 which to do, S. Bernard thinks is Tride, and S. Augufline 
 Madneffe . So then, in his Opinion 5 Firfe, Excommu- 
 nication on their Part was not the Prime Caufe of this 
 Divifion • but the holding and teaching of contrary U pilli- 
 ons. ' Why but then in my Opinion, Jhat hiding and 
 teaching was not the Prime Caufe neither, but the Cor- 
 ruptions and Superflitions of Ffome, which forced many 
 men to hold, and teach the contrary. So, the Frime 
 Caufe was theirs drill. Secondly , A. C s . words are 
 
 M know TSdUrm. quotes s Jerome very confiderable. For he charges 
 
 the Froteflants to be the Authours 
 of the Schifme for obflinate holding 
 and teaching Contrary Opinions. To 
 what F pray ? Why to the h F x omane 
 Faith. To the Ffomane Faith? It 
 was wont to be the Chrifiian Faith, 
 to which contrary Opinions w T ere 
 (o dangerous to the Maintained 
 But all’s fomane now with A. C. 
 and the lefuite . And then t@ 
 
 countenance 
 
 JL * r """ "" » * 
 
 ScitoRomanam Fidem, &c.fuprd §. 3 . 
 Ntt.9. But there S. Ierome doth not call 
 it Fidem %jjmanam y as if Fides %jmana 
 and Fides Catholica were convertible; 
 but he lpeakes of it in the Concrete, 
 mana Fides ,\ . R omanorum Fides, qm lau- 
 datafuit ab stpoflo/o.&C'Ro.l.S.S.Yhe- 
 ron, tApoL 3. com. Ruffin. That is that 
 Faith which was the at Rome when 
 S. Paul commended c. But the Apo. 
 files commending of in the Romanes 
 at one time pafies no ,ed of Afliirance, 
 that it (liall continu worthy of Com- 
 mendations among ie Romans through 
 all times. 
 
 4 
 
§. 21 
 
 ? *> *7 
 
 b/ 
 
 countenance the Eulincfle, S. Bernard and S.Juqu- 
 
 ftine are brought in , whereas neither of them ipeak 
 
 of the P{omane , and S. Bernard perhaps neither of 
 
 the Qatholike ? nor the %omane , but of a Particular 
 
 (Jhurch, or Congregation. Or if he Ipeake of the Catbo- 
 
 like . of the Pomane certainly he doth not. His words 
 
 are, Qtu major juperbia^c. What greater pride , the n 
 
 that one man fhould preferre his judgement before the 
 
 iphole Congregation of all the Chriflian Churches in the 
 
 Trorld. So A. C. as out of Saint Bernard, t But f 
 
 Saint Bernard not fo. For theie laft words ( of all 
 
 the Chriflian Churches in the world) are not in Saint C°w c g*tiom 
 
 Bernard . And whether T oti Congregation i implie frlflrat J“tan» 
 
 more in that Place then a Particular Church 5 is not ¥ e ff™ 
 
 very manifeft. Nay I thinke ’tis plaine, that hce 
 
 J peakes both of, and to that particular Congregation to Serm, 3 , a? R if* 
 
 which he was then preaching. And I believe J.C . will ^ rr ' 
 
 not eafily finde where tota Congregation the whole 
 
 Congregation is uled in S. Bernard , or any other of 
 
 the Fathers, for the whole Catholike Qhurch of Chrift. 
 
 And howfoever the meaning of S. Bernard be, ’tis 
 
 one thing for a private man 3 Indicium fuum preferre , to 
 
 preferre, and fo follow his private Iudgement, before 
 
 the \Phole Congregation , which is indeed, Lepra proprii 
 
 Confilii (as S. Bernard there cals it) the proud Lepro- 
 
 fieof the Private Spirit. And quite another thing for 
 
 an Intelligent man , and in tome things unfinished. 
 
 modeftlyto propofe his doubts even to the Catholike * . . 
 
 Church. And much more may a whole Nationall am fiquMortm 
 
 Church, nay the whole Body of the P rot efl ants doe *?** p*r Orbcm 
 
 it. And for S Augusline , the Place alledged out of 
 
 him is a knowne Place. And he (peakes indeed of bine quin it a fa- 
 
 the Whole Catholike Church. And he * fayes (and p^r^infotn- 
 
 hee layes it truly) Tvs a part of mofl infolent mad - ti/sim* infant* 
 
 nefie for any Man to difpute , whether that hee to bee 
 
 T done , 1 
 
$. IK 
 
 done, which u ufuaUy done in 5 and thorough the yphole 
 Catholike Church of Chrifl. Where firft here's not a 
 word of the %omme Qhurch , but of that, which is 
 tota perOrbem , all over the World, Qatholike y which 
 A.c.p. $6. Rome never yet was. Secondly^ Ql. C. applies this to 
 the %omane Faith, whereas S. Augufline ipcakes there 
 exprefly of the Pftes and Ceremonies of the Church, and 
 
 3 particularly about the Manner of 
 *£ 2 *™ quid per qmntam fefUm *lti- Offering upon FVtaundy-Tburfday a 
 
 m£ hebdomadis £uadragefim<t peri debet y ~ t 1 f ^ _ > J * 
 
 An offerendum Jit manel&c. S. Aug.Ibid. WDCtnet It be in the JS/lOffllftg , Of af- 
 ter Supper , or both. Thirdly, cis 
 manifeft, by the words themfelves , that S. Augufline 
 fpeakes of no Hatter of Faith there, Romane jaor Catho- 
 like. Fox Frequent at ^ and h Facien- 
 dum are for Things done, and to be 
 done, not for 1 hings believed , or 
 to be believed. So here’s not One 
 Word for the Romane Faith in ei- 
 ther of thefe Places. And after this, 
 
 I hope you will the leffe wonder at A. Q*. Boldneffe. 
 Laftly, a right fober man may without the leal? 
 Touch of Infolency or JMadnejTe , difpute a Bufineffc 
 c Euftb. l. %. of Religion with the Romane either Qhurch or fre- 
 
 dfsocrlt ?,*] ^ ate > (As all men know c Irenaut did with Vidor.) fo 
 Hifi.c.22. it bee with Modejly, and for the finding out* or 
 Confirming of Truth , free from Vanity , and pur- 
 pofed Opposition againft even a Particular Qhurch . 
 But in any other way to difpute the Whole Qatholike 
 Qhurch, is juft that which S. ^AuguUine cals it Injolent 
 Madnejje. 
 
 N u m. 5 . But now were it fo,that the Church of Rome were Or - 
 
 thodoxe in all things,yet the Faith y by the JeJuites leave, 
 is not fimply to be called the Romane , br ; dks^Qhriftian 
 and the Qatholike Faith. And yet A.C. r nil notunder- 
 ftand this, but Roman and Catholike , w her Qhurch or 
 
 Faith, 
 
 b And fo Bellarmine moft expretly. But 
 then he adds , Vniverfam Eccleftam non 
 pojfe err sire, non folum in Credendojed nec 
 in O per Ando : & prefer tim in Ritu & 
 (Jultu Divino.L 4 .de Ferb.Dei. c.9.§, 4 
 And if this be true, what is it to Rome ? 
 
§. 21 . 
 
 faith mufl be one and 
 the fame with him,* 
 and therefore inferres. 
 That there can be no juU 
 Caufeto make a Schijme 
 or Diyijion from the 
 "whole Qhurch . For the 
 whole (burch cannot uni , 
 yerfally erre in Do ferine 
 of Faith. That the 
 "Whole (f burch cannot 
 nniyerfally erre in the 
 Doctrine of Faith , is 
 mod true , and ’tis 
 granted by diperfe 
 f *? rot efl ants ( fo you 
 will but underfland 
 its not erring, in 
 folute Fundamental 1 Do- 
 Urines.) And therefore 
 as true alfo, that there 
 can bee no juft Caulc 
 to make a Schifme 
 from th c whole Church. 
 But here’s the lefuites 
 Cunning. The " whole 
 Church , with him , is 
 the Romane , and thofe 
 parts of Chriftendome y 
 which fubjedt them- 
 felves to the Romane 
 r Bifb?-p. All other parts 
 of ChriflendGme arc in 
 Here fie, and Schifme 3 
 and what A. C. pleafes. 
 
 ip 
 
 t Fla&flio efi, An Ectlejia totalis teUliter Confiderati] 
 upro omnibus fimul EiebUsftum fiunt Membra Milit an* 
 ti<s Ecrfefut, pofsint err are, vcL in tot a fide % vd in grant 
 A i quo filet pun bio ? Et refpendewus (implicit er->ta ejfe 
 impofsibile. Keckerm. Sjfl. Thee l, p. 387. Edit. Ban* 
 no via, An. if 01. Calviaus dr c&teri Baretici conce* 
 dunt Ecclefmm absolute non pojfe dtficere; Sed dicunt in~ 
 telligi dehere de Eccldu Inviiibili. Brfiarm. L.^de Ec* 
 clef Milk. c. 13. §, i. But this Exception of B c liar- 
 mine s , that the Protefiants, whom, out of his Libera* 
 Jity, he cals Hereticks , l'peake of the Invifible Church 
 is meerely frivolous. For the Church of the Ee6l is 111 
 the Church of them that are Called, and the Invifible 
 Church in the Vifible. I herefore if the whole Church 
 of the Eled cannot erre in Fundamentals, the whole 
 Vifible Church, in which the fame EleCf are, cannot erre. 
 Now that the Invifible Church of the EIe6l is in the Vi- 
 lible, is manifeft out of S.Aug. Ip fa eft Ecclefia,qu* in- 
 Ira fagenam Dominic am cum mail* pifcibtu natat 9 
 S. Aug. Epift . 48 Grana Junt inter illam paleam, quan- 
 go kxczgumvideretur tota , palea putabatur , S\ Aug its 
 Pftl. I2i. And this is proved at large by Booker. L. 3. 
 Ecclefi P cl, §. 1. For els the Sletl or Invifible (lurch 
 istyedtonoduty of Chriftianity. For all iuch Duties 
 are required of the Church, as ’tis Vifible , , and performed 
 in the Church, as ’tis Vifible. And IX Field fpeakesas 
 plainly, we hold it impoflible,that the Church ihould ever 
 by Apoftafie and Misbelief e , wholly depart from God, 
 & r c. So we hold, that it never fals into Berefie, So that 
 Ec Hay mine is as mucllto be blamed for idle and need ’die 
 bufying himfelfe to prove, That the Vifible Church never 
 fals into Berefie i which we moll willingly grant. Field, 
 L.q.de Ecclefi c . 2. Taking the Church for all the Belee - 
 'vers now living, and in things neceflary to beknowne 
 exprelly. Ibid. And Ecllarmine himfelfadds • Calvinus 
 dicit hanc Tropofitionem [JEeclefia non poteil ei rare] ve* 
 ram ejfe ft intclligatur cum duphei rcftriblione. Trima eft * 
 ft non propomt Dogmata extra Scrtpturam, &c. (And 
 indeed Calvin doth fay jo, L. 4. lnftit. c. 8. §. 
 Secunda eft , fi intclligatur de Jola Ecclefi a Univerfali , 
 non autem d* Reprefentativa , B ellar. L. g . de^Eccl. Mi - 
 lit. c. 14. §. 2. And 1 hope it is as good and a better Re- 
 llridionin Calvin: To fay the Catholike Church cm- 
 not erre, if it keepe to the Scripture: then for E ellar mine 
 to fay; The particular Church of Rome cannoterre.be- 
 caufe of the Topds refiding there a or the Tope cannot 
 erre, if he keepe his chaire, which yet he affirmes, X.4 ,de 
 %om.Tont % c. 4 . §. 2, 
 
 
 Nay fofe. For another Church 
 T i may 
 
140 
 
 §• 2 . 1 # 
 
 may feparate from %ome, if %ome will feparate from 
 Chrift. And fo farre as it feparates from Him and the 
 Faith f o farre may another Church fever from it. And 
 this is all that the Learned Troteftants doe or can fay: 
 And 1 am fure ail that ever the Church of England hath 
 either faid, or done. And that the whole Qhurch can- 
 not erre in DoElrines abfolutely Fundamentally and Ne« 
 cejjary to all mens Salvation (befides the Authority of 
 thefe Trot eft ants, moft of them being of prime ranke> 
 feemes to me to be cleare by the Tromife of Chrift , 
 S.MUttb, i £,i8, S.Matth . i6« That the gates of Hell f hall not prevails 
 againft it* Whereas moft certaine it is, that the Gates 
 of Hell prevaile very farre againft it, ll the Whole ML 
 lit ant Church univerfally taken, can Erre, from, or in the 
 Foundation , Burthen this Tower of not Erring is not to 
 be conceived, as if it were in the Church primo & per 
 fe , Originally, or by any power it hath of it felfe: For 
 the Church is conftituted of Men, and Hnmanum e?i 
 €7 rare , all men can erre. But this ToWer is in it, parcly 
 by the vertue of this Tromije of Chrift : and partly 
 by the Matter which it teach eth, which is the uner- 
 ring Word of God y fo plamely and manifeftly deli- 
 vered to her , as that it is notpoftibk [he fhoulduni- 
 verlally fall from it, or teach againft it in things abfo« 
 lutely ymeffary to Salvation . Befides, it would be well 
 waighed, whether to believe ortea;h otherwife,will 
 not impeach the Article of the (freed concerning the 
 Holy Catholtke Church y which we profcftewe believe. 
 For the Holy ;~atholike (.burch there fpokenof, containes 
 not onely the whole Militant (fhurch on earth , hut the 
 . . r Tvhole Triumphant alio in HeaVerr. 
 
 \SccleMkictota accipieridaeft, non fo- i . / * 
 
 iumex pane qua pere^rinatur interns , For lO • S »AUguHine hath ‘Ong flUCe 
 
 &c. verumetiane ex t/U parte q M in cot - taught me. N O W i f the whole Crf- 
 &C* « • AiX^Enchtr . c. 5 6. . P. r] , . , . « . 
 
 tholike Lhurcb in this large extent be 
 Holy, then certainly the whole Militant Church is Holy, 
 
 - • as 
 
14* 
 
 §. 1!. 
 
 as well as the Triumphant though in a far lower degree, 
 in as much as all * San&ification, all Holindfe is * Nem tx uu 
 impeded: in this life, as well in (lurches ,as in Men. Ho- L^m^p^C 
 ty then the whole Militant Church is. For that which men \ 
 the Apoflie Ipeakesof Abraham, is true of the Church, 
 which is a Body Collective made up of the fpirituall 
 feed of Abraham. Rom. n. If the root be holy fo are the 
 branches . Well then the whole Militant Church is Holy, kotn, 
 and io we believe. Why but, will it not follow then 
 Tha che whole Militant Church cannot pofnbly erre in 
 the Foundations of the Faith , That fhe may erre in Super - 
 JlruElures and Deductions and other by, and unnecef- 
 f ary Truths , if her Curiofity, or other weaknefle 
 carry her beyond , or caule her to fall (hort of her 
 Qfule no doubt need be made. But if She can erre ei- 
 ther from the Found ition,or i>2 it, She can be no lon- 
 ger Holy, and that At tide of the Creed is gone For if She 
 can erre quite from the Foundation, then She is nor Holy , 
 nor Church, but becomes an Infidcll. Now this cannot 
 be. Fort all Dinjines Hhicient , and , f7 > r H 
 
 , 0 yTDtim l hr i ft hi or at in Exctlfo, N kit 
 
 Aioderne 5 1\ omantjts ? and Isj? formers ? cuU ( idefi E elefia ) turbatur flu tUbus 
 
 a srec in this, That the Tfbole Militant in P r “f» rl f M H uU Ckrifhu . 
 
 , ( r . . u . non pote/f tnertri, S. Aug. Scrm 14 ek 
 
 Church of Chrijt cannot jail away into ye? b. Domt.c 2. Bellar.z* 3 deEc » 
 
 general! Apojlacy. And it She Erre in cle ' MiUt c * 1 3 . Pr&fidio chrifii fuitim 
 
 c r / t , • 1 ■ r ttir Ecclefuz perpetuitas. tit inter turbu* 
 
 t e Found a ion that is in tome one lent as adt at tones, &formidabiles motus^ 
 
 or more Fundatrtentall Toy nts of Faith, & C: lalva tam.nmaneat. CaK L.2. In~ 
 
 then -Sher miv hee a Church nf § ' 3 J/^Symboli difpofitions 
 
 g ( c J c 1 ^ admonemur perpetuam ^eftdere in Pc cle* 
 
 Chfift ftiU, but not Holy , but be- J*a (Jhnfti reriiifsionem Peccatorum.QAv. 
 corner Heretical!; And tnoilccrtain &» 
 
 J , cannot be perpetuall m the Church, if 
 
 It IS that, no * /lffcm' ly ( be it never the Church itlelfe be not perpetual!. Buc 
 
 fo general!) of fucb Heretkh(\S,OX ^Church k felte cannot be perpetuall, 
 
 can be Holy . Other Errors that are * %mmsdnrnf*«tionis non potefi In- 
 c's a. meaner day take notHolineffe ™ niri in H ^^icornm membxr.SMir- 
 
 from the Church • but thefe that twnx ' inIerem * lo ‘ 
 are dyed in graine cannot confilt with Holme of 
 
 T 5 which > 
 
which Faith in Chrift is the very Foundation. And 
 therefore if wc willkeepe up our Creed > the whole 
 Militant Church mult be ft ill Holy. For if it be not 
 (oft ill , then there may be a time, that Fafum may 
 fubefje Fidel Catholic#, that falfliood, and that in a 
 high degree , inth emery Article, may be the Subjedt 
 of the CatMike Faith , which were no Icfle then Blaf- 
 phemy to affix me. For we muft ft ill believe the Holy 
 Ca’tholike Church. And if She be not ftill Holy , then at 
 that time when She is not fo 3 wc believe a Falfhood 
 under the Article of' the Cathplike Faith . Therefore a 
 very dangerous thing- it is to cry out in generali 
 termes, That the whole Catholike Milit ant Church can Erre , 
 and notlimit nor d'ittihgtiifh in time, that it can erre 
 indeed, for Ignorance it hath,/ and Ignorance can Erre. 
 But Erre it cannot y eitherby falling totally from the 
 Foundation , or by Heretic all Error in it. For the Ho- 
 Unejfte of the Church cormfts as much , if not more , 
 in the Verity of the Faith as in the Integrity of Manners 
 taught and Commanded in the Do cirinc of Faith. 
 
 N u m. 6. Now in this Difcourfe J.C. thinkes he hath met 
 
 A. ChA 6 *, with me.F’or he tells me,- that I may not only fafely grant 
 that TroteHants made the Divifton that is now in the Church, 
 lut further alfo , and that 'With a fafe Confidence , as one did , 
 was it not you ? faith h cfThat it was ill done of thofe, who did 
 firft made the Separation, Truly ! doe not now remem- 
 ber whether i (aid it or no. But becaufecA C fhall 
 have full fatisfadlion from me, and without any Tir- 
 giverfation, if I did ndt fay it then,! do fay it no w, and 
 moft.rueit is, That it waf ill done of thofe, who ere they 
 "Were fiat firft made the feparation. But then AC muft not 
 underftand me of ASluall only, but of ('aufalltcpara.- 
 *§.2 1 .Nv. i. tion. For fas 1 (aid * before) the Schifme is theirs, whofe 
 the Caufe of it is: And he makes cne Separation, that 
 gives the firft juft Caufe of it ; not he that makes an 
 *^v. AHual l 
 
$. XI. 
 
 M-3 
 
 l m 
 
 ABnall Separation upon a juft Caufe preceding. And 
 this is fo evident a Truth, that J,Ccannot deny it; for 
 hefaycs as moft true. Neither can he deny it in this tA.C-p.^6. 
 fenfejin which I have expreffed it ; For his very After- 
 tion againft us (though falfe) is in thefe Tenues , That 
 wenye thefirft Caufe-, Therefore he muftmeaneit of 
 Caufall, not of Aftuall Separation only. 
 
 But then A.C. goes on and tells us. That after this n u M . 7 . 
 Breach was made , yet the Church of <3{ome was fo kinds A.c.p.^j, 
 and carefull to feeke the Trot eft ants j. that She mYited 
 them publikely with JafeconduBto Thorne 3 to a Ge- 
 nerali Councell , freely to [peak, what they could for them/ elves'. 
 
 Indeed I chinke the Church of <$me did carefully feeke 
 the Trot eft ants But I doubt it was. to bring them with- 
 in their 2fyt. And fhe invited them to Tome- A very fafe 
 place ifyou marke it/or them to conic to, Iuft as the 
 
 Lion ( in the a Apo- * oiim q nod’vulpes tgreto canto. Leoni 
 
 l 0 a ue ) invited the Rfpondit, ref cram, jfuia me vefiigia terrent 
 
 -V i Omnia te adverfnm fpeclantia s nulla retrorferti. Horaf. L. i. 
 
 Fox to his oHfll Ven. ■ ■ Ep.i.exMibp, 
 
 Yea but there was fafe ConduB offered too? Yes, Conduft 
 perhaps,but not fafe, or fafe perhaps forgoing thither 7 
 but none for coming thence Vejiigia nulla retrorjum. Yea, 
 but it (hould have been to a Generali Councell ? Perhaps 
 fo.But was the Con- ...... r4 
 
 J cx r r i b Though 1 cannot juftifie all which the£e two men Uia, yetjafe 
 
 duct fafe, that was Conduct being given, that Publike Faith ought not to have 
 
 given for com- beene violated. . _ 
 
 D • s- 11 c Affirmant mo confenfn omnes Catholici , debere H arsticis 
 
 Uling tO aC ounce , fervari fdem five falvus conduttus concedatur Jure communi five 
 which they cal Ge- fpeciah . Bee. r Qif. Tdoeol. de Fide Harcticis fervanda. c.n.S.y. 
 w n t f But for al tlijs Brag off Affirmant mo confenfu omnes C atholici) 
 
 " 3 * " Idee anus fhuffles pitifully, to defend the Councell of Conflance . 
 
 thers before them? For thus he argues: Tides non eft violata Huffo. Non a Patri- 
 
 No fare, b John Hus, «*» H*’»*°* ^J^crcSiMsm. 
 
 art ' l rr> do. rile enim audit fidtm, fed nonviolavit. find. But ail men 
 
 and Jerome Oi rrage fc now that the Emperor was uled by the Fathers at fonfiar.ee 
 
 to bring Fluff e thither. Sigfmundus Huffum Confiantiam vocat , 
 & mifsis Liter is public a fide cavetjnenfe 0 blob. Ann. 1 414. &c . 
 Edit. in 1 60. Et etiamft frimo graviter tulit Hulli in career at io- 
 as c the le - nem, tamen cumdicerent Fidem Haereticis non eiTe fern ndarn, 
 
 lefuites 
 
 burnt for ail cheir 
 Jafe conduct And fo 
 
 long 
 
*44“ 1 ; I"' $ 
 
 nonmodoremiftt Offen r tonem , fed & primus acerb e in earn pro- 
 nnnciav it. f bid. This is a mockery. And Tie can us his Argument 
 is eahly returned upon himielfe. For it the Fatheis did it in 
 cunning , that the Emperor thould give lTe conduct, which 
 themtelves meant not to keepe,then they broke faith. And if the 
 Emperor knew, they would not keepe it, then he himfelre broke 
 faith, in giving a fafe conduct, which he knew to be invalid. And 
 aseafieitis to anfwer what Tec anus addes tofave that Coun- 
 cels Act^ could I ltay upon it. 
 
 Fides Hareticis data fervania non eft, feat nec Tyr annis,Fir atis 
 CF cateris publicis pradontbus.&c. S imanca ftnftit.Tit . 46. § . 5 1, 
 And although Tecanus in the place above cited § . 1 ^.conridenc- 
 lydenyes, that the Fathsrs at fonftance decreed, No faith to be 
 kept with Hereticky , and cites the words of the Councell Sell, 
 I9.yetthere the very words themlelves have it thus: Pofe Con- 
 cilium eos punire &c. etiamfide falvo conduct# conftft ad locum 
 vencrint Judicii &c. Ani much more plainly Simanca fnft. Tit* 
 46 § .5 2. Iureigitur Haretici cjiiidam or a vif s im 0 Concilii C on - 
 ftantienfis fudicio legitim a ftamm'a concremati funttfuamvis pro - 
 mifsa Hits fee writ as fwjfet. So they are notonely P rot eft ants 
 which charge the Councell of Cenftancc with this. Nor can Tle- 
 conus lav as he doth, Affirmant mo confenfu omnes Catholici, 
 fidem Hareticis fervandam efte. For Simanca deayes it. And hee 
 quotes others for it which A. f. would be loth ihouid not be 
 accounted Cathohkes . But how faithfully Simanca fayesthe one, 
 or Bee anus the other, let them take it betweene them, and the 
 Tgeader be judge. In the meane time the very Title ol the Ca- 
 non of the Conncell of Constance Sejf. 1 9.1s this. Jduodnon ob - 
 ftantibus falvis cokdutlibus Jmperatoris y Regum. <frc. pofsitper 
 Indie em competentem de Haretica private mquiri. 
 d For fo much isi. C. confeflesp. 45 . For if they (houldgive 
 way to the altering of one , then why not of another, and ano- 
 ther,and io of aP And the Trent F others in a great point of Do- 
 6Irine being amazed, and not knowingwhat-to anlwer to a Bi« 
 lliop of their owne, yet were relolved n6t to part with their 
 common error, (ftertum tamen erat TDoUrinam earn nonprobare, 
 fedquxm antea didiciffent firmiter tenere &c. Hift . Con. Trid. 
 L.ip- 2 77 - Pdit.Lejd. 1612, 
 
 §.zr. 
 
 Iefuites write and 
 maintains,. Than 
 Faith given is ?iot to 
 he kept wiih Here- 
 tickts : And the 
 Church of pome 
 leaves tins lewd 
 DoSlrine uncenfur- 
 ed (as jl hath hi- 
 therto done, and 
 no exception put 
 in of force and vi- 
 olence.) A.C (hail 
 pardon us, that we 
 come not to \ome, 
 nor within the 
 reach of G{o mane 
 Tower, what free - 
 dome of Speech fo- 
 ever bee promis- 
 ed us. For to what 
 end hreedome of 
 Speech on their 
 party a fince they 
 are refolved to al- 
 ter nothing? And 
 
 Num. 8. 
 
 A.c.p. 57 . 
 
 to what end Free- 
 dom* of fpeech on our part , if after fpeech hath beene 
 free 5 Ufe (hall not ? ’ 
 
 And yet for all chis,^. C. makes no doubt ,but that the 
 Pftrndne Church is fo farrefrom being Caufe of the continu- 
 ance of the Scbifme y or binder ance of the Re-union, that it 
 Thould yet give. a free hearing with mojl ample fafe ConduBjf 
 any hope might be given, that the Protejl ants would fincerely 
 fe^ke nothing but Truth, and Peace* Truly A. C. is very 
 
 Refolutc 
 

 
 Refolute for the %pmane Church, yet how far he may 
 undertake for it, 1 cannot tell. But for my parr, Jam 
 of the fame Opinion for the continuing of the Scbifnie , 
 that I was for the making ofit.That is, that it is ill , ve- 
 ry ill doncof thofe, whoever they b e,Papifts, or Pro- 
 tejlants, that give juft Caufe to continue a Separation, 
 
 But for fret-hearings ,or fafeCondufls,\ have faid enough 
 till that Church doe not only fay, bnt doe otherwise. 
 
 And as for Truth and Peace, they are in every mans 
 
 mouth with you,and with us ;But lay they but halfe fo God 
 
 , r . ' c t0 tn JP tre 
 
 dole to the hearts or men, as they are common on nuaiiy the rni - 
 
 their tongues, it would foonebe better with fbriflen- v^fdi church 
 
 , , ° 1-1 • • • 1-1 T K i r J I With the Spirit of 
 
 dowe,thenatthisday it is, or is like to be. Andforthe truth .unity, and 
 Proteffants in generall , I hope they feeke both Truth uncord. &c. in 
 and Peace , fmcerely. The Church of England, I am fare Miiicwt^ 
 doth, and hath taught me to t pray for both, as I moft Church. Am Un 
 
 heartily doe.But what %ome doth in this, if the world oa GoodSida^ 
 will not fee, I will not Cenfure. 
 
 And for that, which A. C addes, Tl)at fuch a free Num. 9* 
 hearing is more then ever the Englijh Catholik.es could obtaine, 7\ 
 though they have often offered , and defired it , and that but un* 
 der the Princes Vmd : And that no Anfwer hath /tor no good 
 Anfwer can be given. And hecites Carnpian for it. How 
 farre, or how often this hath beene asked by the Eng- 
 UfhPpminiJls , I cannot tell, nor what Anfwer hath 
 beene given them.But furely Campian was too bold, and 
 fois A.C.toOyto hy*Honeflum refponfum nullum } no good *Campian./^ 
 Anfwer can be given. For this, I thinke is a very good fa-Xgtiombm 
 Anfwer- That the Ifings and th effburch of England had X4e 
 
 no Reafon to admit of a Fublike Difpute with the - 
 
 Englifb pomifh Q er P e > till they fhall be able to fhew it 
 under the Seale, or Powers of Pome , That that Church 
 will fubmit to zThird, who may be an Indifferent 
 Judge betweene us and them ; or to fuch a Generali 
 Councell as is after * mentioned. And this is an Honcft s * g ^ N 
 
 V and “ * “ 2 
 
14 6 $* ^ 
 
 and I thinkea full Anfwer. And without this all Dif- 
 putation muft end in Qamour * And therefore the more 
 publike, the worfe. Bccaufe as the glamour is the grea- 
 ter, fo perhaps will be the Schifme coo. , 
 
 p. Moreover he [aid, he Voould ingenuoufly acknov?-* 
 ledge , Tout the (Corruption of Manners in the 
 mljh (Jmrch, V?as not a fufficient Caufe to jujli- 
 fie their Departing fr om it. 
 
 *.§.*! .N.6. 
 
 g. I would I could fay, you did as ingenuoufly re- 
 peat,as I didConfeffe For 1 never faid/f hat Corrupti- 
 on of Manners was,or was not a fufficient Caufe to ju- 
 ftifie their Departure . How could i fay this,fincel did 
 not grant,that they did Depart, other wife then is * be. 
 fore exprefled?? There is difference between Departure } 
 and caufe IJJe Tl?rufting from you j For out of the Chwch 
 is not in your Power (God beethanked) to thmft 
 us: Think on that. And (o much l faid exprefly then y 
 That which I did ingenuoufly confefle^ was ihn,Tl?at 
 Corruption in Manners only, is n< fufficient Caufe to nuke a 
 Separation in the Church $ a .Nor is it. It is a Truth agreed 
 * fr 011 ty tbc Fathers, and received by Divines of all Torts, 
 
 tinent reft Apr*- fave by the Cathari, to whom the Donat iff y and the Ana- 
 cipUnt s. Hier. haptifl after accorded. And againlf whom b Calvin di- 
 .1. fpntesitlfrohgly.And S.jfuguJUne is plaine; There an 
 | . 13.C H. ha i fijh in the Net of the Lord from Vphicb there mufl he ever 
 
 'tiJfifabw corde a Separation in h art, an l in manners fut a corporall fepa> at ion 
 femper & mon mufl he txpefted 1 1 the Sea fhore , that isghe end of the world. 
 
 And r ^ e fifh that are, mult not reare and breake 
 fepArationem in the Net , bccaufe the bad are with them. And this is 
 fntore mavis, b°c as i n g enu0 ufly Confefled for you, as by me. For if 
 
 * C° r ' u ption in Manners were a juft Caufe of A ftuall Separa- 
 tion of one Church from another , in that C atholike 
 Body of Chrift, thp Church of R ms hath given as 
 
 _ great 
 
V 
 
 ! +7 
 
 great caufeasany fines f a s* Stapleton * Vlx **i’uv>Teccatttm(fdA Ha. 
 
 . f 5 r j • x » reft excepta ) a (riiart potc/l out 
 
 grants ) thtre ts pane any jmnt that can be iuStd(S ,„ rp ?, cr ,«* 
 
 quo 
 
 non 
 
 thou \g ht by man ( Here fie only excepted) with far it, maxims ab AS- o.%s - 
 
 which that Sea hath not beenfouly ] fl dined, cfpe^ li ^- CoaA d 
 
 dally from eight hundred y cares after ChrijL And he need 
 
 not except Hatrefie, into which * ‘Biel grants ltpofli- 'leci'Td 
 
 bie the Bijhcpj of that Sea may fall. And t Stella, and fSceJ .in S .Luc. c 
 
 Almaine grant it freely, that fome of them did fall, and 
 
 foceafed to be Heads of the Church, and left Chnfi „e. Multi' fun t 
 
 (God be thanked) at that time of his Vicars defeciionxo Decretaks han- 
 
 p J tlr.o AnH {f\ 
 
 iooke to his Cwrehimfclfe, 
 
 p. But ( faith he)befide Corruption of Manners, there 
 were aljQ Errors in Do Brim i 
 
 tica&c. And io 
 they erred us 
 Pope?. 
 
 B This I fpake indeed. And can you prove, that 2 >* 
 
 I fpake not true in this? But I added (though here 
 againe you are pkaied to omit it )T hat June of the er- 
 rors of the Tyman Church were dangerous to falVationJror it 
 is not every light Error in Disputable D o Brine } and 
 Toints of curious Speculation , that can bee a juft 
 (faufe of Separation in that ^Admirable Body of 
 Chrijl , which is his * Church, or of one Member ♦Eplu.25, 
 of it from another. For hee gave his Katur all Body 
 to bee nnt and torne upon the Crofle,that his My* 
 
 [Head Body might be One . And S' t Augufiine inferres fs.Aug.Lpjo. 
 upon it • lhat be is no xr ay partaker of Divine Charity , it€rum Co J Hm 
 that is an enemie to this Vnity . Now what Errors in scfaaMfalni 
 DoBrine may give juft Caufe of Separation in this Bq- AcdpUres fat, 
 dy , or the Tarts of it one from another, were it ^u/TliumU. 
 never fo eafie to determine (as I thinke it is moft &c.SM%>tr*&* 
 difficult ) I would not venture to fet it downe in 5 * in s.iohn, 
 partied ar , leaft in thefe times of Difcord, I might 
 bee thought to open a Doore for Schifme ; which 
 furcly 1 will never dee, uniefte it be to let it out. 
 
 V 2 But 
 
/ 
 
 14-8 
 
 
 A,C.f. 55 * 
 
 j .£^.56. 
 
 §. 23. 
 
 But that the 1 : are Errors in DoBrine , and form of 
 them fuch 3 < -oft manifeftly endanger fahation y in the 
 Church of® , is evident to them that will not 
 ii ut then £yes. The proofe whereof runnes through 
 the Particular Points > that are betweene us ; and fo 
 is too long for this Difcourfe. Now here A>C. would 
 faine have a Reafon given him, Why I did endeavour 
 to p?ewwhat Caufe the ProteBantshadto make that Pent 
 orDivifion, if I did not grant that they made it . Why 
 truly in this reafonable demand I will fatisfiehim. 
 I did it partly becaufe I had granted in the generall , 
 that Corruption in Manners was no fufficient caufe of 
 Separation of one Particular Church from another 
 and therefore it lay upon mq, at leaft to Name in li- 
 ner all what was; . And partly bccaufe he, and his 
 Partie will needes have it fo , tha be did make the 
 Separation • And therefore thou gh I did not grant 
 it, yet amifle I thought it could not be, to De- 
 clare by way of Suppontion , that if the Protejlants 
 did at firfl Separate from the Chttrch of %ome, they 
 had reafon fo to doe : For A . £ nimfelfe confefles, 
 That Error in DoBrine of the Faith is ajuB Caufe of Sepa- 
 ration • fo juB , as that no Caufe is juB^ but that. Now 
 had I leafure to defeend into Particulars , or will 
 to make the Pent in the Church wider 7 ’ti s no hard 
 matter toproove, that the Church of Pome hath erred 
 in the DoBrine of Paith, and dangeroufly too ; And I 
 doubt I (hall afterwards defeend to Particulars 3 A. C. 
 his Importunity forcing me to it. 
 
 p. Winch when the Generall Church would not Re- 
 formeyit was lav? full for Particular Churches 
 to pe forme themf elves . 
 
 B. Is 
 
 
§• I'^p 
 
 B- Isitthenfucha 
 Church may re forme it fe 
 I had thought, and do fo ft ill, That in Point of %efor- 
 matron of either Manners, orVoClrine, it is lawfullfor 
 the Church fince Chrift, to doe as the Church before 
 Chrift did, and might do. The Church before Chnft 
 confifted of leTbes and Profelytes : This Church came 
 to have a Separation, upon a moft ungodly Policie of 
 8 Jeroboam* s , fo that it never pceced together againe. a |.Reg.i2,27. 
 To a Common Councell , to re for me all, they would 
 not come. Was it not lawfull for Judah to reforme 
 
 ftrange thing, that a Particular r § • 2 4- 
 Ife , if the Generali will not? ^ 11 M * li 
 
 d Non tamer, cefavit ‘Detts & popultan 
 htsnc arguere per Prophet as. Nam ibi 
 extiternnt Aiagni itti & infignes Prop be- 
 ta Elias & Elizseus, &c. S. Aug. L.vj. 
 de Civ it. ‘Dei. e,22. APulti religiose in - 
 tra fe Dei cult urn hah chant .‘De quo 
 numero eorumve C P osier is feptem Ula 
 
 herlelfe, when Ifrael would not joyne ? Sure it was, 
 or els the Prophet deceives me, that (ayes exprefly , b Hof/4.15 
 0 'Tlmghljrael tranfgrefte, yet let not Judah finne. And c Super HaretP 
 S. Hierome "expounds it of this very particular finne 
 of Herefie , and Err our in Religion. Nor can you fay, er. Ibid. 
 that d Ijrael from the time of the 
 Separation was not a Church • for 
 there were true Prophets in it, 
 e Elias , and 'Elions, and others, 
 and § thoufands that had not bowed 
 
 knees to Paul And there was falva- „ , . 
 
 tlOH tor theie* W'hich cannot be AchaboDetim jibiabldololatriaim- 
 
 in the Ordinary way where there munes refervarmt , nee genua ante Baal 
 • g-y\ 1 * ip 1 1 flexermt. Fran. Monceius L.X.deplt. 
 
 is no Church. And God threatens j nn0tCA2t 
 h to cafi them away , to Zander among 
 
 the Nations, and he no Congregation , no Church : therefore l 7 M 
 
 hehadnocyetcaft them away in Non Ecclejiam , into *4.^.3. / k y 
 No-Church. And they are exprefly called the People EhoramfiUo a- 
 of the Lord in Tehu's time, and fo continued long after. g lg 
 
 Nor can you plead, that Judah is your part , and the b Hof.9,i 7 . 
 TenErihes ours (as fome of you doe) for if that bee 
 true, you muft grant that the Multitude and greater 
 number is ours : And where then is Multitude , your 
 numerous Note of the Q?urch. For the Ten Tribes 
 
 V 3 were 
 
 
IJO 
 
 
 N U M. 
 
 were more then the two. But you cannot p'ead it. For 
 certainly if any Calves be fee up, they are in Dan, and 
 in Bethel : They are not ours. 
 
 Belides, to reforms what isamifle in Dohlrme, or 
 Manners , is aslawfull fora Part cular Church, as it is 
 to publifh a 1 promulgate any thing that is Latholike 
 in either. And your Qjieftion, fjup ‘judice ? lies alike 
 againfl both. And yet l thinke it may be proved, that 
 the Church of Rome , and that as a Particular Church, did 
 promulgate an Orthodoxe Truth , which was not then 
 Catholikely admitted in the Church • namely, T/;e Pro - 
 cejhonqf De Holy Cjhofl from the Sonne, if fhe erred 
 in this Fad: , confefleher Errour • if Hie erred not., 
 why may not another Particular Church doe as fhee 
 did ? A learned Schole-man of yours la'th (Tie may : 
 
 t The Church of Rome needed not to 
 \Nonoportmt ad bat eosvocare , quum Cd jj the Grecians to agree upon this 
 
 pLipnc ckm micu^e T ™th , fwce the Aut boritf Of publtjb- 
 en.im particuUri Ecclefu liceat, idpuod im it xocu in the Church of Rome , ef- 
 
 JMMV* fi nce !t » ' for every 
 
 particular Church to promulgate that 
 which is Catbolike. Nor can you fay, he m anes Catbo- 
 like , as fore-determined by the Church in generally for 
 fothis Point, when Rome added Filioque o the Creed 
 of a Generali Councell, was not. And how the 
 Grecians were ufed in the afcer-Councell (Tuch as it 
 was) of Florence , is not to trouble this Dispute ; But 
 CathoHke (lands there , for that which is fo in the ran 
 tureof it, and Fundamentally. Nor can you juftly fay. 
 That the Church of Rome did, or might do this, by the 
 Popes ^Aut or y over the Church, For fuppr ie tic 
 # 7 Have that, id that his Sentence be Infallible , (I fay, 
 
 vmtplpajatef fhppofeboth, but I give neither) yet neither his ^Au- 
 Caput. Bell, l . thnrity , nor his Infallibility can belong unto him, as the 
 . particular GBiJhop of that 5 ea, but as the * Mini (Itnall 
 
 Head 
 
 4 he Rom, Pont. 
 

 §. 24 - 
 
 Ijl 
 
 Head of the whole C’nurchJ And you are all fo 
 
 lodged in this, that ^ Cellar mine pro- s , r „ _ ^ . 
 
 r ^ , . , ii l T L.l.de Ckrijto. c. l\. Jyuando aa* 
 
 relies he can neither tel! the ye.ire tem ^ cann0 t finde Records of 
 
 when nor the Tope under whom your own Truths, which are farremore 
 
 this Jurnm w. made. K<T: SfriSS 
 
 ticuhr Church tnen 5 if JOU judge placejandthetime^ndl know not what, 
 
 itbyth t Scbcole of Rome , or the of tl,™ Beginning. or els they are not 
 J J i i n Errours. As it tome Ei rours might not: 
 
 Practice of Rome, may publllh any want a Record, as well as Tome Truth, 
 
 thing that is Cai'olike , where the 
 
 whole Church is Jilent; and may therefore Reforms 
 
 any thing that is not Catbohke ) where the whole Church 
 
 is negligent, or will not. 
 
 But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome , as N u m. $J 
 
 * Cty*™ IS . Wh ° ' S 3n § r y With Ba - • Omnin'o excepljfet, «*. Nee 
 
 robins about certaine Canons in the confideravit quant i referat concedere Eg- 
 
 fecond .Mileyit^ne CounceD, and d / m 
 
 iaith , that he conjldered not OjVihat Sede^ quodnunejuam li cutty nwquam fa • 
 confe queue e it was to grant to Parti- Rumcfi,&c. Capell. de Jjipe/lat. Esd t 
 
 , V, / , 5 ^ r j. t/4fncan*.c.l.NuA2, 
 
 cular U urches the Power of making 
 Ca om of Faith , without confulting the Romane Sea, which 
 (as he laith, and you with him) was never lawfu’f nor 
 ever done. But fuppofe this w 7 ere fo, my Speech w>as 
 not, Not confulting, but in Cafe of Neglefling, or R ef fi- 
 fing : Or when the difficulty of Time and Place , or 
 ocher Circumfta^ces arefuch, that a 
 
 b Generali Come ell cannot be called, hr Rs* C6n f tetur fi Conrilfom 
 
 . ins tertiumToletanum ; fgtua deettr (isretrb > 
 or not convene. For that the ( Rp- tem^rUm Harefis immtntns intota £c- 
 
 mane Sea muft be confulted with, cle^aCatholica agnrg Synodic* Negotm 
 
 i c „ r . i , denecrabat , &C, Condi. T<dztm % tsrtk 
 
 before any Reformation bee made. um fcan.i. 
 
 Firft,tno(I certaine it is, Qapdlusz an 
 never proove. And fecondly as certa : ne, that Were 
 it proved, and practifed, we fhould have no Reforma- 
 tion: For it would be long enough, before the Church 
 fhould be cured, if that Sea alone fliould be her'T^- 
 fitian , which in truth is her Difeafe. 
 
 Now 
 
 / 
 
/ 
 
 \ 
 
 
 IJZ H* 
 
 Num. 4. Now if for all this you will lay Aill, That a Tro* 
 yinciall Councell will not fuffice, but we fhould have 
 borne with Things, till the time of a Generali Conn - 
 cell, Firft, 'tis true, a Generali Councell y free and entire, 
 would have beene the belt Remedy, and mod able 
 for a Gangrene that had fpread fo farrc, and eaten fo 
 dcepe into Christianity. But what ? Should we have 
 fuffered this Gangren to endanger life and Al , rather 
 then bee cured in time by a ( Pbyjitian of a weaker 
 knowledge, and a lefle able Hand? Secondly, We live 
 to lee fince, if we had flayed and expected a Generali 
 Councell , what manner of one we fhould have had, if 
 any. For that at Trent was neither generally nor free . 
 And for the Errours which Rome had contracted , it 
 confirmed them , it cured them nor. And yet I much 
 doubt, whether ever that Councell (Tuch as it was} 
 would have beene called, if fome TroYmciall and Na* 
 tionall Synods under Supreme and Regall Tower , had 
 not firft fet upon this great worke of Reformation^ 
 Which I heartily wifh had in all places beene as Or* 
 derly and Happily purfued, as the Worke was right 
 Christian and good in it felfd, But humane frailty, and 
 the Heats and Diftempers of men , as well as the 
 Cunning of thcDivell, would not fuflferthat. For 
 even in this lenle alio, The Dorath of man doth not ac - 
 
 s. lames 1. 20. compliflj theivillof God , S. lames 1. But! have learned 
 not to reject the Good, which God hath wrought, for 
 any Evill, which men may fallen to it. 
 
 Hum. 5. And yet if for all this, you thinke tis better for us 
 
 to be blinde, then to open our owne eyes, let me tell 
 you, very Grave and Learned Men, and of your ownc 
 Tarty , have taught me , That whe^ he Vnherjall 
 Church will not , or for the Iniquities of Times, can- 
 not obtaine and fettle a free generall Co icell , "tis law- 
 full , nay fometimes neceflary to eforme groffe 
 
 Abuies 
 
' * * 
 
 tf? 
 
 pofsit Ecclefui per jtm partes refir* 
 mari. Jmo hoc necefie ejfet 3 fed ad hoc 
 agendum fttfficerent (foncilia ‘ Trovincia - 
 lia, Qrc Gerlon. trail. de Gen. Condi, 
 uni us obedientix. parte i.p. m. F. 
 
 c Omnes Ecclefut flatus aut in Generali 
 Concilio refir met is, aut in Ccnciiiis Pro - 
 'vindalibm reformari matidetis. Gei fori. 
 
 §. 2 <£. * jy 
 
 Abufesby a 2 fationall y or a*P roYtncialL For, befides 
 Mlb. Magnus 5 whom I quoted a before, Gerjon , the a §.24*^ 7 «-2o 
 Learned and Devout Chancellour of Tar is tels us 
 plainly : b That he will not deny , but 
 
 that the Church may be reformed by h Nolot amen dicer ejuin in multi* par- 
 parts. Mnd that this is neceffary, and 
 that to effeSi it, TroYmciall (founcels 
 may fufjice • And 3 in fome things 5 Vio- 
 cefan . And againe 3 c Either you 
 jhould re forme all E ft at es of the Church 
 in a Generali (founcell , or command 
 
 them to be reformed in TroYmciall q : e f arat ' c Defiauum Vtronm Ecde 
 r . J r r fit fiaflicorum.par.i . pag, 209. %. 
 
 i ouncels. Now Gerjon lived about s 
 
 two hundred yeares iince. But this Right of TroYincE 
 all Synods 5 that they might decree in Caufes of Faith, and 
 in Cafes of %e formation^ where Corruptions had crept 
 into the Sacraments of CbriJI, waspra&ifed much above 
 a thoufand yeares ago by many y both TSLattonall and 
 TroYmciall Synods. For the d Councell at T{ome under 
 Tope Syhefter An. 324. condemned Thotinus and Sa~ J 
 bellius. ( And their Herefies were of high Nature 
 againftth c Faith.) Th e Q Corniced at Gangra about the ^anff'f Gan ^ 
 lame time condemned Euftathius for his condemning 
 of Marriages unlawfull. The i: fir ft Councell at Car- j c f 1m C art E 1 . 
 thage, being a TroYmciall , condemned Tjbapti^ation 
 much about the yeare ^48. The ° TroYmciall Counceil ^on.Aquilienf. 
 atMjuileia intheyeare 581. in which S .Mmbrofe was 
 prelent, condemned TalUdws and Secnndinus for em- 
 bracing the Arrian Here fie. The h fecond Councell of c™f anh ' 1% 
 tarthage handled and Decreed the Belief e and Treach- 
 tngof the Trinity . And this a little after rhe yeare 424. 
 
 The 1 Qouncill of Mileyis in African , ^ iiim A cmfi4dehHnc u nmc ^ 
 
 Which S. Aufllftine was prefentj flio pelagianorum imminet, in hoc (oetu 
 
 condemned ‘the whole Courfe of faff™ tr f'T" r f c fr 
 
 « rel. Cartha®inenlis tn TrAfat.Lonc. Mt- 
 
 the Herepe of Telagiusfn&t greatand hvit. apudcaranzam. 
 
 X bewitching 
 
can, 
 
 &c. 
 
 * Ccn.Tolet 3. 
 
 iff §-H* 
 
 • i 
 
 Con. Aar an G- bewitching Here fie y m the yeare 416. The fecondCoun- ' 
 in. 2. Can. \ 3 ,, ^ at Orange zProVinciall too, handled the great Con- 
 troverfies about Grace and Free will , and fet the 
 Church right in them, in the yeare 444. The b third 
 Councell at Toledo ( a Kationall one) in the yeare 5 89. de- 
 termined many things agamft the Arrian Herejie 
 about the very Prime Articles of Faith y under fourteene 
 feverall Anathemas. 1 he fourth (founcellat Toledo did 
 not onely handle Matters of Faith for the Reformation 
 'JL^syZHoU of that People, ‘ but even added al/o fome things to the 
 cxchcite t radu a Creed ? which- were not exprefly delivered in former 
 ffiff'f efff Creeds Nay the Bijhops did net onely pra&iiethis, 
 to Condemne Herefies in TSf^ionall and Provincial l 
 Synods, and' io Reforme thole feverall Places, and 
 the Church *it ielfe by par;s : But They did open- 
 ly challenge this as their Right and Due 7 and that 
 without any leave asked of the Sea of Rome . For 
 
 in this. Fourth Councell of Toledo 
 iSmmmus ut fahem femel in Anno k d They Decree , That if there hap - 
 
 A obis Concilium celebret ur , it a tarn en, . J r r r t' ■ i i sit* 
 
 *t fi FiJei C Ufa eft, am qudibet alia * ^Je of Faith to be Jetled , a 
 
 jEcdeft* communis , Gcneraiis HtfpanU Generally that is , a 'Nation all Synod 
 
 & Gallict* Synodut celebretur,&c. Lone. f u o. • i r ir • n n r 
 
 Tola y.Canf. °f rill opame and uallicia Jhall be 
 
 held thereon And this in the yeare 
 
 «* . m 
 
 64?. Where you iee , it was then Catholike Do* 
 ctrine in all S paine } that a Kationall Synod might 
 be a Competent ludge in a Cauje of Faith . And I 
 would faine know , what Article of the Faith doth 
 more concerne all Chrifians in generall 3 then that 
 of Filioque ? And yet the Church of Rome her 
 felfe made that Addition to the Creed without 
 c S.24,iV«.a. a Generall Councell ? as I have fhewed c already. 
 
 And if this were prajdlited Co often, and in io 
 many places , why may not a Nationall Coun- 
 cell of the Church of Falkland doe the like f as Shee 
 did. For, Shee call oi the Popes VJurpation , 
 
 . and 
 

 
 mre mandajfet, &c, Concil. Tolst. 3, 
 Can. r. Chth convenijfemus Sacer dotes' 
 ‘Domini apttd urban Toletana.m, ut%j- 
 giis tmperiis atejue jttfsis commoniti, &c, 
 Concil. Tolet. 4. in princ. apud far an* 
 ^am. And borh thefe Synods did treat of 
 Matters of Faith. 
 
 and as much as in her lay, reftored the IQng to his 
 
 ri?ht. That appeares by a 3 Sooke 
 
 fublcribed by the Pijhops in Henry printed 1 J 
 
 the eights time . And by the b Re- * In Sjnodo Londinenft Se(f. 8. Die Vent- 
 
 cords in *e MtMjhof, Office, or. 
 
 derly kept and to be feene- In the kiah,*.chron.2p & under iofia,4 Reg. 
 
 ( Reformation which came after, our *3 .Andin die time ol Reccaredw King of 
 ^ # | i - - •- update^ the ixcronnation there proceeded 
 
 Princes had their parts ? and the t\\us:^UHnig!orioJrfsimns Princeps omnes 
 
 filer gy theirs. And to thcic Two fni Ponti fees in unurn conve- 
 
 principally the power and directi- 
 on tor Reformation belongs. That 
 our Vr'inces had their parts,i§ mani- 
 feft by their Calling together of the 
 Pi/bops, and others of the Clergie, 
 to eonfider of that which might fteme worthy Re- 
 formation . And the Qlergie did their part : For being 
 thus called together by Regall Power, they met in the 
 2 ^atmall Synod of fixty two, And the Articles there 
 agreed on , were afterwards confirmed by Mels of 
 State, and the Royall Affent. In this Synod the Pofi- 
 tive Truths which are delivered , arc more then the 
 Polemicks. So that a meerc Calumnie it is. That we pro- 
 fefle only a Negative Religion. T me it is, and we mult 
 thanke Pome for it, our Qonfefion mud needs containe 
 fome Negatives. For, we cannot but deny that Images 
 are to be adored. Nor can we admit Maimed Sacra - 
 merits. Nor grant Prayers in an unknowne tongue. And 
 in a corrupt time, or place ,\is as ncceflary in Religion 
 to deny falJhood y as to afiert , and vindicate Truth. In- 
 deed this latter can hardly be well and fufficiently 
 done, but by the former • an Affirmative V erity being 
 ever included in the Negative to a Falfhood. As for any 
 Errour which might fall into this (as any other Refor- 
 mation)i( any fiich can befound,then I (ay, & ’tis mod 
 true: Reformation, efpeciallyin Calesof Religion, is 
 
 X a lb 
 
15(5 
 
 * 
 
 24 
 
 r 
 
 fo difficult a worke, aud fubjed to fa many Pretenfi- 
 ons, that ’tis almoft importable but the Re formers 
 fhould ftep too farre, or fall too fhort, in fomc (mai- 
 ler things or other, which in regard of the farre grea- 
 ter benefit commingby the Re formation it felfe, may 
 
 well be pafied over, and borne 
 t £*%*** occafione hujus Legis, vvithall. But if there have beene 
 
 fy zn ?M e errours not 
 
 rant) res proprias veftrm cttpide appettt, jo much in Opinion, as in tall , 
 Sfplket nobis, dcnique /f Sacriledge too often pretending 
 
 paupcrum, WBaiihcas Congregationum, \ & f . , » 
 
 &c. non per Iuftitiam, fed per Avantt- . toreiorme OUperJtltlOn ) that S the 
 
 am tenet , dijphcet nobis . $. Aug. Epifi. (p r j me 0 f the 'Reformers, not of the 
 4^. vcrj us fnem. Reformation - y and they are long fince 
 
 tfone to God to anfwefit ? to whom I leave them. 
 u M # £ But nbw before I go off from this Point 5 I mud 
 
 put you in remembrance too. That I Ipake at that 
 time (and fomuft all that will (peak of that Exigent) 
 of the Generali Qrnrcb as it ip as for the moft part forced 
 under the Government of . the Romane Sea . And this you 
 underftand well enough-For in your very next words 
 you call it the Romane Church. Now I make no doubt, 
 but that as the Vniverfall Qatholike (fhurch would have 
 reform'd her felfe, had fhe beene in all parts freed of 
 the Romane Yoke fo while fhe was for the moft in 
 thefeWefterne parts under that yoke, the (hurch of 
 Rome was, if not the Onely , yet the Chiefe Hindrance of 
 Reformation. And then in this fenfe, it is more then 
 cleare. That if the Romans Church will neither Reform , 
 
 * And this a Particular Church may doe; not fllffei RefoimatlOJl , it is law** - 
 
 full for any other Particular Church 
 to Reform it felfe,fo long as it doth 
 it peaceably and orderly , and keeps 
 it felfe to the Foundation 5 and free 
 
 but not a Sclnfme. For a Schifme can ne- 
 ver be peaceable, nor orderly,and feldome 
 free from Sacriledge. Out of which re- 
 fpeft s, (it may be ) as well as for the gne- 
 voufnefle of the Crime, S. Aug. cals it 
 Sacrilegium Sckifmatis. L. i.de Bapt. cont. 
 Donat. c % 8. Por ufaally they go together. 
 
 from * Sacriledge. 
 
 o 
 
 F. 1 
 
§• 2 ^' 
 
 157 
 
 b.15. 
 N u m, i 
 
 p. I asked Quo ludice 5 did this appears to bee 
 / o ? Which Qupftion I asked , as not think- 
 ing it equity that Protejl ants in their o'tPn Caufe 
 Jhould he Accuftrs , VVitnefles, and fudges of 
 the %pmane Church . 
 
 B You doe well to tell the reaion now ? whyyou 
 asked this Queflion j For you did not difcover it: 
 at the Conference : if you had, you might then have 
 received your Anfwer. It ismofttruc : No man in 
 common equity ought to befuffered to be A ecu fir , 
 
 Witnejfe, and fudge in his owne Caufe . But is there not as 
 little rcafon, and equity too, that any man that is to 
 be accufed, ftiould be the Accused , and yet Vf^itneffe , 
 and fudge in his owne Caule ? It the firft may hold, no 
 man (hall be fnnocent- and if thelaft, none will be 
 2focent. And what doe we herewith ( in their owne 
 Caufe againjl thefomane Church } ) Why > Is it not your 
 owne too, againlt the Proteflant Church > And if it be 
 a Caufe common to both, as certaineitis, then nei- 
 ther Tart alone maybeludge : If neither alone may 
 judge , then either they mull be judged by a * Tlnrd 
 which Hands indifferent to both, and that is theSm- 
 pture, or if there be a jealoufie or Doubt of the fenfe 
 of the Scripture they muft either both repaireto the 
 Expofition of the Primitive Churchy and fubmitto that* 
 or both call, and fubmit to a Generali Qouncelf which 
 fhall be lawfully called , and fairely , and freely held 
 with indifferency to all parties • And that muft judge 
 the Difference according to Soipture, which muft be 
 their Pyde as well as Private Mens. 
 
 And here after fomelowdCry againft the Pride n um ; 2 . 
 andl ?// dent madneffe of the Protejlants , A. C. addes, That aA.C.f* , 
 the fhurch of ( Rome is the Principal l , and Mother Church : 
 
 And that therefore 3 though it be againft common equity, that 
 
 X * ~ ~ 
 
 
i *8 
 
 A.O. Argument 
 ye. Nor fhall it 
 > weaken the juft 
 r of Mothers over 
 this Argument. 
 Jurd in I ome Cafes • 
 any one Moderate 
 oke it upon him 
 ’in any Caufe of 
 
 *77> <n S rtf yw 9’J“ 
 Aei£ tk 
 
 /irS J'iKsdii) 
 
 Atilt. £f/?. 
 
 f Muiui Jura 
 tjHOticS glijcat 
 Potejtas, ttec u - 
 tendnm Imperio , 
 Legibus agi 
 fofsit. Tacit »L.$ 
 tsfnnal. 
 
 ' * Heb. 12, 51; 
 
 " §^y. 
 
 Subjects > and Children (botdd be Accufers, Witnejjes, Judges, 
 and Executioners againU their Prince y and Mother in any cafe: 
 yet it is not abfurd y that in fo me Cafes jthe Prince } or 'C other 
 may Accuje y Witnejfe , Judge, and if ?ieed be, execute lujiice , 
 againft unjttft and rebellious Subje£ls,or evill Children How 
 farre forth pome is a Prince over the whole C urch, 
 or a Mother of it will come to be flhewed at after.ui the 
 meane time 3 though I cannot errant her to be cither, 
 yet let’s fuppofe her to be bot* 
 may have all the ftrengthitca 
 force me fas plaufible as itfeeme 
 power of Princes over their Subje i 
 their Children , to avoid the fhocke 
 For though A. (f. may tell us tis noi 
 yet I would fainc have him nar 
 Prince that ever thought it juft, oi 
 to be Accufer } and Witnejfe, and In 
 moment againft his Subjects , bu hat the Last had 
 Libcrtie to Judge betweene them. F< ■ the great Philo- 
 fopher tells ns ft That the Chiefe Magi, rate is Cuftos ju - 
 ris, the Guardian and Keeper of the Law ,nd if of the Last , 
 then both of that equity and equality St ich is due unto them 
 that are under him. And even Tiberius himfelfe, in th e 
 Caufe of Silanus , when Dolabella would have flatter'd 
 him into more power then in wifdome he thought 
 fit then to take to himfelfe, he put him off thus. 
 No, t the Lawes grow lefje where J uch Poster enlarges . I for 
 is abjolute Poster to be ufedyvhere there may be an orderly 
 proceeding by Law. And for * Parents ft is true, when Chil- 
 dren areyoung, they may chaftiie them without other 
 Accufer or Witnejfe y then t hem f elves ; and yet the chil- 
 dren are to give them reverence . And ’tis prelumed 
 that natural! affection will prevaile fo far with them, 
 that they will not punifti them too much. For all ex- 
 perience tells usfalmoft to thf lotfcof Educationjthcy 
 
 punifh 
 
Z5 
 
 they * jmnijb them too little, even 
 when there is caufe.Yet when Chil- 
 dren aregrowneup, and come to 
 fome full ufe of their owne eafon, 
 the Apoflles pule is t Colo / .^.Parents, 
 provoke not your Children. And if the 
 Apoftle prevailenot withfroward 
 Tarents, there's a Maoj flr ate, and a 
 
 1 19 
 
 * God ”u {<zT^kamuel as a MefTenger 
 againfl: Slifox his overmuch indulgence 
 to his Tonnes, i Sam.^.i^. Aiidyec^" 
 wuel himfelfe committed the very fame 
 fault concerning his own Townes. i Sam. 
 8.3.5:. And this I ndulgenc# occalioned 
 the Change of the Civili government, as 
 the former was the lode of the Prieft- 
 hood. 
 
 f Coloflf.g.?.!. 
 
 a Crimini ei Tribums inter eat era dab at , 
 r „ i- *r * • n. quod fill urn iti-venem nullius probri com- 
 
 Ta V tO rejeve even a >Onne againit per turn ? extorrem urbe, domo^penattbus , 
 
 5 unnaturallParents : as it was in the f oro > luce, c§ngreff» aqualium prohibit 
 Cale of T. Mb againft hi. over """ 
 
 Imperious Father. And an exprefle 
 
 Law there was among the laves T>eut.iu when Chil- Dcuc » 21. up* 
 
 dren were growneup and fell into great extremities, 
 
 that the Parents fhould then bring them to the Magi- 
 
 Jlrate , and not be toobufiein fuch cafes with their 
 
 ownPower. So fuppofe ^ ome be a Frince } yei her Subjects 
 
 muft be tryed by Gods LaVo ? the Scripture: And fuppofe 
 
 her a Mother ; yet there is, or ought to be Remedy 
 
 againft her for her Children that are growne up 5 if 
 
 Ihc forget all good Nature y and turne Stepdame to 
 
 them, 
 
 * 
 
 Well ; the Reafon why the Iefuite asked the Que- N u m . 3. 
 ft ion. Quo ludice ? Who fhould be Xudge? He fayes 
 was this 3 Becaufe there's no equity in it, that the Pro - 
 tejlants fhould be Iudges in their owncCaufe. But 
 now upon more Deliberation A. C. tells us ( as if he ^ C-M 7 • 
 knew the Iej uites minde as well as himfelfe, as fure I 
 thinke he doth ) That the Iefuite dir e Bed this QueBion 
 chiefly againSt that fpeech of mine , That there Vo ere Errors 
 in PoBrine of Faith y and that in the Generali Churchy the . 
 
 Iefuite understood my meaning . The Iefuite here tooke 
 my meaning right. For I confefle I laid there were 
 Errours in DoFtrine , and dangerous ones too in the 
 Church of Pome. I laid likewife that when the Generali 
 
 Church 
 
 
§. 2 ?. 
 
 Qhurch could nor, or would not Reform e fuch , it 
 was Lawfull for Particular Churches to Pjfrme 
 themfelves. Buc then I added , That the Generali 
 Church (not univ erf ally taken, but in theft Wei erne 
 parts) fell into thofe Err ours, being j stayed in the/e lat- 
 ter Ages by the predominant PoVier of the Church of pome , 
 under who fe Government it was for the mojl part for- 
 ced. And all men of underftanding knowhow ofr 3 
 and how eafily an Over-potent Member carries the 
 whole with it, in any Body, Naturall, Politick 3 or 
 EcclefiaHicall. 
 
 Yea but A. C. telles us , That never a y Competent 
 Judge did fo conjure the Church j And indeed , ti it no Tower 
 on Earth , or in Hell it f dfe, can f ) far re p . . : e again ft the 
 Generali Church as to make it Err e generally in any one 
 Point of Divine Truth, and much lejje to teach any thing by 
 its full Authority to bea-Matter of Faith , which is contrary 
 to Divine Truth expreffed , or involved in Scriptures rightly 
 underflood. And that therefore no P(e formation of Faith can 
 be need full in the Generali Church, but only in Particular 
 Churches. And for proofe oi this he cites S. Mat.\6 . and 
 ift.S.Luk.ii.SJobn 14 . and \6. In this trou lefomeand 
 quarrelling Age, I am moft unwilling to meddle with 
 the Erring of the Church in generall. The Church of 
 Englandis content to pafle that over. And though 
 *Sbe tels us. That the Church of Pome hath Erred even in 
 matters of Faith • yet of the Erring of the Church in 
 generall She is modeflly f 'dent . But fince A. C. will needs 
 have it: That the whole Church did never generally 
 Erre in any one Point of Faith, he fhould doe well to 
 Diftinguijk , before he be fo peremptory. For if he mean 
 no more then that the Tphole VniVerfal Church of Chriji 
 cannot uniVerf ally Erre in any one Point of Faith /imply ne- 
 ceffaryto allmens falvation, he fights againlt no Adver- 
 fary , that I know ,but his owne fi£fcion.For the moft 
 
 * Learned 
 
§. 25 . 
 
 
 I* 
 
 t Learned P ydC HalitS g; a^* it. Blit j- Sidetnus errarenottpojfe Eccleftam in 
 if he meane thac the whole Church rebus adfalutem neeejjariisfiic fen/us no - 
 
 Cannot Erre in any O .e . fapientiafi Spirits San bio doceri feper 
 
 of DtV[ne Truth in generally which VerbumDeipatitur.C^v.L.^.Infi c.S. 
 
 though by fundry Confluences |;£ J ,s alfo 15 our Ienfc - vide ^ 
 deduced from the Principles , is yet mile 
 a Point of Faith , and may proove dangerous to the Sal- 
 vation of fome, which believe it 3 and pradife after 
 it, ( as his words feeme to import ) efpccially , if in 
 thefc the [hurch (hall prefume to determine without 
 
 her proper Guide, the Scripture, as * N oftrafememaefi,Eccuf,a*, aflm 
 *'Bellarm. fayes She may, and yet not nonpop err Are, nec in rebus abfolute ne- 
 
 Erre. Then perhaps it may be faid, ™ credenda veifad- 
 
 i t J y enaa nobis propomt, fiv e habeanturexprefi* 
 
 and without any wrong to the Car ft in Scripturis, five von. Bellar. L. 3 . de 
 tholtke Churchy that the Whole Militant §. j. 
 
 Church hath erred in fuch a Point of Divine Truth and 
 of Faith, Nay c/i C. confefles exjprefly in -his very next ^.c 0 p.$%Z 
 words, 7 hat the FT hole Churchmay at Jome time not hno'to 
 all Divine Truths, Vfhich afterwards it may learne hy jludy of 
 Scripture find otherwife. So then in A. Q. judgcmenr,the 
 Whole Militant Church may at Tome time not know all 
 Divine Truths. Now that which knows not all, muff; 
 be ignorant of (bmejand that which is ignorant of fome 3 
 may poffibly erre in one Point or other • The rather 
 becaufe he confelTes the knowledge of it muff be got 
 by Learning • and Learners may millake and erre • efpe- 
 dally where the Lejfon is Divine Truth out of Scri- 
 pture, out of Difficidt Scripture. For were it of plain and 
 eafie Scripture that he fpeakes,the JFhole Church could 
 not at any time be without the knowledge of it. And 
 for ought I yet fee^he VV'hole Qhurch Militant hath no 
 greater warrant againfl Not erring in> then againft Not 
 knowing oft he Points of Divine Truth.For in S. Ioh.i6» ^ *3* 
 
 There is as largea Promifeto the Church of knowing 
 all Points of Divine Truth, as J, C or any Jefuite can 
 
 Y produce 
 
1 6z 
 
 §. 2f. 
 
 ♦§.2i .m.%. 
 
 Nu». 5. 
 A, c. f. J7. 
 
 produce for Her Not erring in any. And if She may be 
 ignorant, or miftaken in learning of any Point of Di- 
 vine Truth^Doubtlefle in that (late of Ignorance fhe may 
 both Erre, and teach her Error, yea and teach that to 
 be Divine Truth , which is not : Nay perhaps teach 
 that as a Matter of Divine Truth y which is contrary to 
 Divine Truth, Alwayes provided it be not in any Point 
 I imply Fundament all ,ot which the Whole Catholike (Jhurcb 
 cannot be Ignorant, and in which it cannot Erre, as 
 hath * before bceneprooved. 
 
 As for the Places of Scripture which xA . C. cites to 
 proovethat the Whole Church cannot Erre Generally in 
 any one Point of Divine Truth, be it Fundamental! 
 or not, they are known Places all of them, and are ah 
 ledged by A.C. three fever all times in this fhort Traflr, 
 and to three fcverall purpofes. Here to proove, That 
 the Vniv erf all Church cannot erre. Before this to prove, 
 that the Tradition of the prefentCburch cannot Erre. Af- 
 ter this to prove,that the I 5 ope cannot Erre. He fhould 
 have done well to have added thefe Placesafourth 
 time,to proove that Generali Councels cannot Erre. For 
 fo doth both * Stapleton and t Bellarmine , Sure^. C. 
 and his fellowcs arc hard driven, when they muft 
 k Relc ~ fly to the fame Places for fuch different purpofes. 
 prtfiadLettore. For A Tope may Erre , where a Councell doth not. 
 t Bellar. L. 2. And a Generali Councell may Erre, where the (fatholike 
 ^ Csnal ' c '** Qhurch cannot. And therefore it is not likely that 
 thefe Places fhould ferve alike for all. The firft Place 
 s.Mat. 1 6. 18. is Saint Matthew 16. There Chrift told Saint Teter , 
 and we believe it moft afTuredly y That Hell Gates 
 / hall never he able to preVaile agarnfl his Church . But 
 that is , That they fhall not prevaile to make the 
 Church Catholike Apoftatize, and fall quite away from 
 Chriff , or Erre in abfolute Fundamentally , which 
 amounts to as much. But the Promife reaches not 
 
 tsf.C.p. 57. 
 A.C.p.% 3. 
 A.C.p,$t& 73 
 
16} 
 
 §. 15 . 
 
 to this , that the Church lhall never Erre, no not 
 in the lighted: matters of Faith. For it will not fol- 
 low : Hell Gates lhall not prevaile againft the 
 Church ■, Therefore Hellijh DiVdls lhall not tempt > 
 oraflaulc, and batter it. And thus Saint 3 Auvuftine * 
 
 underitood the. place. Li may fight (yea and bee Expugnari 
 wounded coo) but it cannot be wholly overcome. And s -. Au S * L * 
 [ Bdlarmine himfelfe applies it to proove, *That the teJm. c [& 
 Vifible Church of Chnft cannot deficere , Errefo, as * Be!Iar Zj. <k 
 quite to fall away. Therefore in his judgement - 
 this is a true, and a lafe fenfe of this Tejit of Scri- 
 pture. But as for not Erring at all , in any Point of 
 Divine Truth and fo making the Church ablolutc- 
 ly Infallible , thats neither a true , nor a fafe fenfe 
 of this Scripture. And tis very remarkable , that 
 whereas this Text hath beene fo much beaten upon 
 by Writers of all forts 3 there is no one Father of the 
 Church for twelve hundred yeares after Chrift (the 
 Counterfeit or Tartiall Dccretalls of fome Topes except- 
 ed ) that ever concluded the Infallibility of the Church 
 out of this Place : but her Kon deficiency , that hath 
 bcene,and is juflly deduced hence. And here I chal- 
 lenge A. C . and all thatpartieto (hew the contrary, if 
 they can. The next Place of Scripture is Saint Mat- 
 iheV? 28. The Fromije of ChriH that hee V?ill bee with 
 them to the end of the V^oAi. But this in the gcnerall 
 
 voyce of the * Fathers of the Church * sm+nVfd.n^^X^.deVoc^ 
 is a promifeof Jfsittance and Fro. 
 tedion y not of an In fallibility of the 
 Church . And 1 Pope Leo himlelf en- 
 larges this prefence and providence 
 of Chrift to all thofethino;s w ch he^committed to the 
 execution of his Minifters.But no word of Infallibility 
 is to be found there. And indeed fince Chrift according 
 to his Promile is prefent with his Afeyhmn all thefe 
 
 Y % things 
 
 Gert.c 2. 
 
 Leo Scr.7.rfeReJfir.‘2)om,c.2 &Ep . ji,' 
 
 IfiJor. inlofu.W. 
 
 f Jn omnibus em* Minijlris fms commifip 
 exequenda.S.Lco.Epift,^i,c, 2 . 
 
S.Lukeis.3 ? . 
 
 things ; and that one and a Chiefe of thefe All is the 
 preaching of his Word to the People. It muft follow 
 That Chrijt fhould be prefent with all bis M snifters 
 that Preach his word, to make them Infallible 7 which 
 daily Experience tells us , is not fo. The third Place 
 urged by A C. is S. Luke 11. Where the Prayer of Chrift 
 will effed no more then his Tromife hath performed- 
 neither of them implying an Infallibility for, or in the 
 Church a gain ft all Errours whatsoever. And this 
 almoft all his omie fide confeffe is fpoken either of 
 S. Peters perfon only, or of him , and his Succejjcrs y 
 * BelUr.i.4. dt * or both. Of the Church it is not fpoken,andthere- 
 Ro.Poxt. r.3. §. £ orc cannot prove an unerring Tower in it. For how 
 He/^deXod can that Place prove the Church cannot Erre, which 
 the place of both fp ea k cs notat all of the Church ? And Tis obfervable 
 
 Suaeflbrs? d hs too, that when the D wines of Paris expounded this 
 Place,that Chrift here prayed for SfTeter , as he repre- 
 fented the Whole (fatholih Qmrcb , and obtained for it 
 that the Faith of the Catholike Church nunquam defi - 
 
 ceret , fhould never fo erre , as quite 
 to fall away • t Sellar mine is fo ftiffe 
 
 Bell. ibid. $ .2 . And he i ayes Us talle be- J J ? 
 
 cauie the Parifi*ns expounded it of the for the Pope, that he layes eipreiiy. 
 
 Church on\y.VolHM enimfrtfoU Ecclc- J-fa Exbofttm of the ' Taft llOm « 
 f> A e(fe oMt ttw av ld.s.l* fir j l 1 • L 
 
 J M jalj e > and that this I ext cannot be 
 
 meant of the Catholike Church. Not be meant of it ? 
 
 * 
 
 Then certainly it ought not to be alledged as Proo f c 
 of it, as here it is by ^ C. The fourth Place named 
 by A. C. is S. Iobn 14. And the confequcnt Place to it 
 S. John 16 Thefe Places containe an other Promife of 
 Chrift concerning the comming of th cHolyGhoft. 
 Thus :Tbat the Comforter (hall abide with them for ever. 
 That this Comforter is the. Spirit of Truth. And Tbit this 
 Spirit of 7 ruth will lead them into all Truth. Now this 
 r T'omife as it is applyed to thcChurch confifting of 
 all Believers which are and have beene fince Chrift 
 
 appeared 
 
 A.CpM, 
 
 SJ0h.14.16.17 
 SJoiin 16.13- 
 
I 
 
 GhoB did lead them into all Truth , fo that no Errour and 1 § norancc 
 was to be found in that Church. But as it is appliable ofDumethm S s 
 to the whole Church Militant in all fucceeding times 3 h And Theodor# 
 fo the 'Trow'/e was made with a Limitation, b name- ana C f a e y e s /^ h ^ 
 Jy 3 that the Blejfed Spirit fhould abide with the Church dhiJpCofheu, 
 fnrpvpr 2nd lead it into dll Truth : bur not fimnlv inrn nee i ue wrabiles 
 
 is made, That the Holy Ghofl J hall teach you all things, 
 tis added, that He /hall bring all things to their remem- 
 brance. What? (imply all things ? No: But all things 
 which Chrifl had told them , S .‘job. 14. So there is a Li- s . Ioh. 14, 16. 
 nutation put upon the words by (hrifl himfclfe. And 
 if the Church will not erre, itmuft not ravcll Cu- 
 rioufly into unnecefary Truths , which arc out of the 
 ' Tromife 3 nor follow any other Guide then the Do~ 
 
 Brine which Chrifl hath left behinde him 'to governe 
 it. For if it will come to the End , itmuft keepe in 
 the Way. And Chrifl: who promifed the Spirit fhould 
 lead, hath no where promifed that it fhall follow its 
 Leader into all Truth , and at \t2NTnfaMbly, unlcfle you 
 will Limit, as before. So 5 no one of thele Places can 
 make good <A. (f. Aflertion , T hat the Whole Church 
 cannot erre generally in ary one Toint of Divine Truth. 
 
 In j\hfohite Foundations 1 (he cannot : in Deductions 
 and Super flruftures fhe may. 
 
 Now to all that 1 have laid concerning the Right Num. 6 » 
 which T articular Churches have to Reforme tbetnf elves, 
 when the (flenerall Church cannot for Impediments, or will 
 not for Negligence , which I have prooved at large 
 
 * before, 
 
 
1 66 
 
 t Si de modica ‘JAfcrptatio efi- 
 
 fet , nonne oportcret in Antiquifsimas re- 
 cur r ere Ecclefuu, in q tubus Apofioli con - 
 verfati j-unty 0 t ub iis de prRcnti filut- 
 ftione J tuner e quod cert urn & liquidum 
 esll Quid ant em fi neq, Apofioli quidem 
 Script ttr as reliquifient nobis , nonne oper - 
 tebat Ordinem fequi Tradirionis ? &c. 
 Irenaeus. L. 8. adverf \ Hxref.cA- 
 
 N u m, 7. 
 
 A. C p. 58. 
 
 '}£*'**' U1 ' &c ‘ 3 before, All the Anfwer that [A- C, gives 3 is, Firft, Qup 
 P 7 Judice> Who fhall be ludge? And 
 
 that (ball bee the Scripture , and 
 the br Primith ? Church. And by 
 the Rules of the i tie , and to the 
 Integrity of the other , both in 
 Faith , and ^Manners , any Parti- 
 cular Church may fafely %eform 
 it felfe. 
 
 Secondly, That no Reformation in Faith can le need -I 
 f ull in the Generali Church 3 but only in Particular Churches . 
 In which Cafealfo (he faith) Particular Churches may not 
 take upon them to Judge and Condemne others of Err ours in 
 Faith : Well, how farrc forth Reformation even of 
 Faith may be neceflary in the Generali Church , I have 
 c § . 15 dNn./\. cxpreffed c already. And for Particular Churches , I do 
 not fay, that they mufi take upon them to ludgc or 
 Condemns others of Errour in Faith. That which I 
 fay, is, They may Reforms themfehes. Now 1 hope, fa 
 Reforme themfehes , and to Qondemne others , are two 
 different Workes, unleffe it fall out fo, that by Reform- 
 ing thcmfelves, they do by confequence Condemne any 
 other, that is guilty in that Point, in which they Re- 
 forme themfelves,- and fo farre to ludge and Con- 
 demne others, is not onely lawfull, but neceffary. A 
 man that lives religioufly y doth not by and by fit in 
 Iudgement , and Condemne with his mouth all Pro- 
 phanc Livers. But yet while he is filent, his very Life 
 condemnes them!. And I hope in this Way of Judica- 
 ture y A, C. dares not fay ’tis unlawfull for a particular 
 Church or man to Condemne another. And farther, 
 whatfoever A. C. can fay to the contrary, there arc di- 
 verfe Cafes, where Herefies are knowne, and notori- 
 ous, in which it will be hard to fay (as he doth) That 
 one Particular Church muft not ludge or Condemne 
 
 another, 
 
 
I 
 
 1 
 
 §• 2$. / 1 6j 
 
 another, fo far re forth at leaft, as to abhorre and pro- 
 teft againfl: the Here fee of it. 
 
 Thirdly, If one Particular Church may not ludge K u m. 8 . 
 or Condemne another , what mull then be done , 
 where Particulars need Reformation? What? Why 
 then UC. tels us, That Particular Churches mufl in A.c.p.^. 
 that Cafe ( as Jren&us intimateth ) have recourfe to the 
 Church of Rome, -which hath more power full Principality , f And after hee 
 and to 1 her Pi/hop y yvho it chiefe Paflour of the -whole faith, p. 58 .that 
 fhurcb y as being S. Peters Succefeour , to whom fhrift ^ 
 promifed the keyes, S. Matth. 16. for whom he prayed that ought to lee the 
 his Faith might not faile, S. Luke n. And -whom he char- 
 ged to feed and goVerne the -whole Flocke , S: lohn 1 1 . And in this Cafe, 
 this (A. C. tels us) he /hall never refufe to doe in fuch fort , 
 as that this neglett /hall be a Juft Caufe for any Particular 
 Many or Churchy under Pretence of Reformation in Man - 
 ners, or Faith, to make a Schifme or Separation from the 
 Whole (Jenerall Church . 
 
 Well; firft you fee where AC. would have us. If Num.p. 
 any Particular (Jburcbes differ in Points of Divine 
 Truth , they mufl not ludge , or Condemne each other 
 (faith he) No, take heed of that in any cafe ; That's 
 th t Office of the ^Vniverj all Church . And yet he will 
 have it. That Rome, yphich is but a Particular Church , 
 mufl and ought Judge all other Particulars. 
 
 Secondly, he tels us this is fo . © ecaufe the Church o 
 
 of Rome hath more Powerful! Principality , then other 
 Particular Churches , and that her Bi/bop is PaUour of the 
 Whole Church. To this I anfwcr, that it is mofltrue 
 indeed; the Church of Rome hath had, and hath yet, 
 
 MQrePo'Werfull Principality y then any other Particular 
 Church. But (he hath not this Power from Chrift. 
 
 The Romine Patriarch, by Scclefeaflicall Constitutions , 
 might perhaps have a Primacy of Order; But for 
 Principality of Power, the Patriarchs were as even, as 
 
 equal! 
 
 / 
 
'* Summit Poteftaa EcclefiaftiCa non eft data folum Pe- 
 tro,fedetiam aliis Apojlolis. Omnes enim pot er ant dice - 
 reitlxd S. Fanil: Solicitude) omnium E;cleliirum,c^. 
 1 . CV.Et.28. Bellar. L.\.de%om. Pont.c. 9. §•. %e- 
 fpondeo Pontipcatum. Where then is th« difference be- 
 tvveeneS. Peter and the reft? In this, faith ‘Bellarmin. 
 Ibid. fthsia h.tc Poteft.u data eft Petro , tit O r dinar io 
 FPaftori, cm perpatto fuccederetur, Alin verb, tanqtidm 
 Delcgatis,qnibns non fuccederetnr. I his is handtomely 
 laid to men ealie of beliefe. But that the Higheft Pow- 
 er Ecclefiafticallconfefled to be given to the other A- 
 poftles, as well as to S. Peter, was given to S. Peter 
 onely, as to an Ordinary Paflour, whole Succe flours 
 fhould have the lame Power, which the SucceiTours of 
 the reft fhould not have, can never beeproovedoutof 
 Scripture. Nay (I will give them their own Latitude) it 
 can never be proved by any Tradition of the whole Ga~ 
 tholike Church. And till it be proved, Hetlarmines hand- 
 fome Exprefflon cannot be believed by me. For $. Cy- 
 prian hath told me long fince, that Spifcopatns Vnus eft* 
 
 ( for as much as belongs to the Calling) as well as Ago* 
 
 equaR , as the 3 Apoftks 
 were before them. The 
 Truth is, this more 'Pow- 
 er full Principality the 
 %omane Pip? ops b got 
 under the Emperours af- 
 ter they became fhrifti- 
 an ; and they tiled the 
 matter fo . that they 
 
 grew 
 
 bis 
 
 enou 
 
 g h 
 
 to 
 
 °pp°fe> na y to ^ e p°J e the 
 
 Emperours , by the lame 
 power which they 
 had given them. And 
 after this , other Parti . 
 cular Churches y elpccial- 
 
 c Lib. 1 . de Rom. 
 Pont.c. 9. §.Au- 
 
 ftolatus. L,de fimp.Pralato. 
 
 b §. 2 $. Nu. 12. . _ _ 
 
 ly here in the Weft, fubmittedthemfelves to them 
 
 for fuccour and Protections fake. And this was one 
 maine Caufe which fuelled Ppme into this more 
 PoTPerfull Principality , and not any Right given by 
 guftinuf Epifto- Chrifl to make that c Prelate JPaJlour of the Tfrbole Church. 
 
 I know P ell ar mine makes much adoe about it, and 
 \6zf^%sma- needs fetch it out of ^S.Jugufline , whoiayes 
 n* Sccleftd fem- indeed, That in the Church of P^ome there Hi ahpaies 
 P our, F the Principality of an Apojlolicke Chain : Or, 
 Principals. if you will , the Apoftolicke Chaire, in relation to 
 the W*eH and South parts of the Church, all the other 
 foure Apojlolicke Chaires being in the Eajl. Now this 
 no man denies, that underftands the ftate and ftory 
 
 of the Church. And 
 
 e £>ttia Opinio invaluit fund at am ejfe hanc Eccledam a e Calvin COnfefteS it eX- 
 S. Petro; Jtaque in Occidsnte Sedes Apoftolica Honoris ri VT • i 
 
 cmfavocabatur. Cilv. L.\. c.6. §.16. p TClly. iSor IS the 
 
 Word Principatus fb 
 great, nor were the ttlfh'ops of thofe times fo little, as 
 that Principts and Principatus are not commonly given 
 
 them 
 
3 Princeps T.cclefiu S. Hilar. /. 8 . de Trin m 
 Prin. And he fpeakes of a Bi liop in gcne- 
 rail/ jreg.Nazianz.Or4f. 1 j.Afcribuntu? 
 Epifcopo Jbvxreict, liHfiut, xju cifjg. lmpe - 
 riant , Tbrontu , eF Erinapatru ad r cai- 
 rn n Animxrum. Et 'nitwit cifyn bujufi » 
 m'dijmp(r t am. And lie alio (peaks of 2 
 B uhop.Greg.Naz1an.Or4f. 2u. Nor were 
 thefe any Tides of pride m Bi hops 
 then. For S. Greg. Nazianz, who chal. 
 lenges thefe Titles to Inmfelfe, Orat. 1 y. 
 Was l'o devout, lb milJ, audio humble 
 that rather then the P^ace of the Church 
 HiOuld be broken, he freely refigned the 
 Great Patriarchate of Conlhncinople, 
 and retired, and this in the Firli Coun- 
 
 §• 2?. 169 
 
 them both by the * Creeke and the 
 Latine Fathers ot this great and 
 Learnedeli Age of the Church 
 made up ot the fourth and fift 
 
 hundred jeurCS 5 alwaies Under- modi Jmpenum. And he alio (peaks or \ 
 flanding Trincupatus ot their Sph i- Bl ‘l ,0 P- Gre §* Ni2ian *°^*u. Nor were 
 tuall To her , and within the Li- 
 mits of their ieverall lur if di Elion s y 
 which perhaps now and then they 
 did occnfionaliv exceed. And there 
 is not one word in S. AuvttHine , 
 
 O' „ _ -WWMW- 
 
 1 hat this Trincipdlity of the ApofTo- C«ll of Conltantinople , and the Second 
 
 like Chair e in the Church of f omegas 
 
 then^ or ought to be noli? exercifd over the hhole Church of 
 
 Chip, as StOarmine infinuates there , and as \A. (j, 
 
 would have it here. And to prove that S yfugufine 
 
 di d not intend by Trincipatus here to give the tftymane 
 
 JBijhop anv Toher out of his owne Limits ( which 
 
 Cod knowes were farre fliort of the whole Church) 
 
 I (lull make it mod manifeft out of the very fame h Pergant ad 
 Epiftle. For afterwards (faith S.Augufine) when the ^ffff^Sfilrol^ 
 pertinacy of the Donatifls could not be retrained by the tranfmarinarum 
 African Li [hops only, they gave them leave to be heard by ^icftarwn E- 
 forraigne Bijhops. And after that he hath thefe words. s.Au-.Ep i6z t 
 c ^And y tt per adventure Vteiciades the # . r , , . . _ _ 
 
 . 7 f l f _ rJ . ... c An forte non debutt Roman a Ecclejtct 
 
 Bljhop of the %0mane Church, with his Melciades Epificopus cum CollegU tranf- 
 
 Colleagues the Lranfmarine Bijhops, marinis Epificopis illui bbi ujnrpare judi- 
 
 R , . r 1 ■ J cium ejHod ab Afris fieptuaginta, ubi Pri* 
 
 non dcblUCj ought not ujuipe to hint - mas Eigifit anus prof edit ffucrit termina- 
 
 felft this Judgment hh'tch was determL tum - £ 1 Hid quod necipfe ufurpavit ; Re- 
 
 byJeVemy Afl ICull Bfifofis, I igi- Epificopos , <5#/ cum so fiederent , &detot& 
 iltanus ftti rig T rim at A And what w i ll M* C ' dufid ,qxod jujbm videretur } fiam^ 
 
 you fay if he did not ufurpe this Tower ? retlt * ^ c ' **’ AUc, ‘ 
 
 For the Emperour being de fired, fent Biftops Judges } which 
 jhould fit Tbith him , and determine V?hat was juft upon 
 the a? hole Cauje . in which Paffage there are very 
 
 Z many 
 
17° 
 
 $. if < 
 
 niany things ObferVealle. As firft , that the %o~ 
 mane Prelate came not in, till there was leaVt: for them 
 to go to Tran/marine Si [hops. Secondly y that if the 
 <Pope had come in without this Leave, it had 
 been an TJfurpation. Thirdly, that when he did thus 
 comein, not by his owne Proper Authority, but by 
 Leave, there were other Sijhops made Judges with 
 him. Fourthly, that thefe other Bi/hops were ap- 
 pointed, andfentbythe Fmperour, and his Power; 
 that which the Pope will Ieaft of all indure. Laftly, 
 „ Ieaft the Pope and his Adherents fhould fay this was 
 an 'Ufurpdtion in the Emperour, % S.Jugufiine tcls us a 
 entm ‘Deo reddi - little before, in the fame Epiftle fti!l,that this doth chief- 
 
 ’ZxS,'f‘rUnt b b(lon 2> ad Curam e j us >/° the Empemrs fare and 
 hat. i’.Aug. £- charge , and that He is to give an Account to God for it. 
 
 A n d fyfdciades did fit and fudge the Bufincffe with all 
 Chrijlian Prudence and \foderation. So at this time the 
 P^omane Prelate was not received as Pa/lour of the whole 
 £hurch y lay A.C. what he pleafe. Nor had he any S«- 
 premacy over the other Patriarchs : And for this were 
 all ocher Records of Antiquity filent, the Civill Law is 
 proofc enough, (And that’s a Monument of the IV/- 
 
 7 mitive Church.) The Text there is, 
 tSSSt ta Tatriartbk non datur yippeUatk 
 
 j'atnarchis loquitur ) S* u*i* ,»o» T * VatrUTCb* non datur ApfdUtW 
 
 locum Appellation a Majonbus nojtri s From a Patriaich there lies no Ap- 
 
 peale. No Appeale. Therefore eve- 
 ry Patriarch was alike Supreme in 
 his owne Patriarchate . Therefore 
 the Pope then had no Supremacie 
 over the whole Qmrch , There- 
 fore certainely not then received as r Vniverfall Pa- 
 rlour. And S. Gregory himlelfe fpeaking of Jppeales, 
 
 /«■*. “dexprefly citing the L mthem- 
 
 Canones,& Leges prabeat fmemr And lelveS, layeS plainly, AtthePd* 
 there hee cites the Novell its felfe. %YlArch PS tO put a fill' "vdtOthfe 
 
 zonftitutumrjt. oa.Lt 1 . 1 tt.Of ^.29,^ 
 tditione Gotbofredi . Si non rata habuerit 
 ptraue Pars, qua judicata fu»t , tunc 
 Bcatlfstmus Fatriarcha T>ioctJeos illins, 
 inter eos audiat, Cfrc. Nulla parte ejus 
 Sentcntu contradicere valente. Amhen. 
 Ctllat#. Tit. i). C.22. 
 
§.Z5, 
 
 171 
 
 Cafes; •which come before him by Jppea'le from r . Bifhops 
 and Jlrchbijhops : but then he adds . , 
 
 _ y-r'i 1 1 . , , , 3 a Si dictum ft'crit. quod nec Metropolis 
 
 That where there 11 nor Metropolitan, unum n f c p Atriarcham .. £ en . 
 nor Patriarch of that Vioceffe , there e fi, quodk Sede jpofioiicd, qm om~ 
 
 *>» "-»#> >» * ** iz}tt'zis a ‘’“ r ‘“ £ ' 
 
 ^ApofloHKe^ ett being the Head of all 
 
 Churches. Where firft this implies plainely, That if 
 
 there bee a Metropolitan , or a Patriarch in thofe 
 
 Churches, his ludgement is finally and there ought 
 
 to be no Appeale toBome. Secondly , ’Tis as plaine, b NotltU Tro 
 
 That in thofe Ancient times of the Church-Govcrn- vinci Arum Occi - 
 
 ment, Britaine was never iubjedl to the Sea of Borne. p- r 
 
 For it was one of the b Sixe Biocefjes of the Weft Em - rolum 
 
 pire , and had a Primate of its 
 
 ownc : Nay • Urn ft|r««,one of 
 
 jour owne P and Learned for thofe & quafi (Jomparem,velut alterws Or bis 
 
 times, and long before him Willi- 
 am of Malmesburie tell us. That 
 Bope r Vrbane the fecond , at the 
 Councell held at Bari in Mpulia, 
 accounted my Worthy PredccefTour S. Anjelme , as bis 
 owne Compeer e, and faid } he Sr as as the Mpoftolike , and 
 (Patriarch of the other world. ( So he then termed this 
 Hand.) Now the Britains having a Primate of their 
 owne ( which is greater then a 
 
 Metropolita ) yea a d Patriarch , if ^^{CantmrU idefi)primoSedes Ar- 
 
 you Will, He could not be Appealed Primus & Patriarchs ' Guil. Malmef. 
 from , to <2? ome , bv S. Grem-ie s 1 ’ u „ rienlis « Prol °£- Lib - r • de G'fi* p ™- 
 
 n- 1 • 11 • -it tificumytnalorum.p.195^ 
 
 owne Do&rine. Thirdly, it will 
 be hard lor any man to proove , there were any 
 Churches then in the World , which were not under 
 Pome either Patriarch, or Metropolitan. Fourthly, if 
 any fiich were /tis gratis diBum, and impoflible to be 
 proved, that all fuch Churches, where ever feated in 
 the world > were obliged to depend on tf(pme. For 
 
 Z 2 manifeft v : 
 
 Apoftolicum & fPatriarcham, &c. Io. 
 Capgravius dc Vitis San floram, invito, 
 S . Anfelmi. Et Guil. MalmesburienC 
 de Geslis Pontificum Anglorwn. p. 223. 
 Edit.Francof, 160 1 , 
 
IJZ 
 
 
 * Pr&terea & qui font Ivvus PapCapi* 
 y it, in TbwbzxKo, 8 pijcopi a Santtifsime 
 Throno San£Hfs'tw<c Couftantinopolitana 
 Ecclefi£ Ordwentur . (Jodex fanonum 
 tcdeJi<L ttniverfa. Can. IQ 6. And Iuflelltu 
 proves it there at large, that by in T>arba- 
 rico, in that Canon, is meant In S«lo Bar- 
 bar or am. An not. Ibid. 
 
 Num, ii. 
 
 manifeft it is , that the S ijbops 
 which were Ordained in places 
 without the Limits of the 'fo- 
 mane Empire (which places they 
 commonly called *Barbarous)wctc 
 all to be Ordained , and therefore 
 mod probable to be governed by 
 the (Patriarch of Qonftantinople. And for (feme's being 
 the Head of all Churches, I have (aid enough to that 
 in diverfe parts of this Vifcourfe. 
 
 And lince I am thus fallen upon the Church of 
 Africk , I fliall borrow another reafon from the Pra- 
 ctice of that Church, why by Principatus y S. Auguftine 
 neither did, nor could meane any Principality of the 
 Churchy or Pijhop of fome over theWhole Church of 
 Chrift. For as the ACtsof Councels and Stories go, 
 the African Prelates finding that all fucceeding Popes 
 were not of Melciades his temper, let themfelves to 
 aflert their owne Liberties, and held it out ftoudy 
 againft Zofrnus, Poniface the firjl , and fAeUine the 
 ftrft, who were fiiccefTIvely Popes of fome. At laft it 
 was concluded in the fixt Councell of Qarthage ( wherein 
 were aflembled two hundred and Jeyenteene Pijhops , 
 of which S. Auguftine himfelfe was one) that they 
 would not give way to fiich a manifeft incroachment 
 upon their fights and Liberties , and thereupon gave 
 prefent notice to Pope Ccdefline to forbeare fending his 
 j Officers amongft them, t leaf he Jhould feeme to induce 
 
 Etclefiam fori- the fwelling pride of the world into the Church of Chrift. 
 fif videa fff ir ft And this is faid to have amounted into a formall 
 fife. Cone, Afrit, Separation from the Church of fome , and to have 
 *d Tapam c<x- continued for the fpace of fomewhat more then 
 ^am.ApJdiip- one hundred yeares • Now that fuch a Separation there 
 c*ifH.To.\,CQn- \yas of the African Church from fome-, and a fee on* 
 filiation after,ftands upon the Credit and Authority 
 
 of 
 
m 
 
 §. 25 ' 
 
 of wo puhlike Injlruments extant both, among the Anci- 
 ent Comcels. The one is an * Epiflle from Boniface the fe- a Epifi. ‘Bonify 
 cond,in whofe time the Reconciliation to Rome is (aid to c fl 0 2,a ^^fi ol ' 
 be made by EulaliusthznBifhopofCartbageTmt the Sepa- 
 ration, flnttigante Viabolofoy the Temptation of th cVivd. 
 
 The other is an h Exemplar Trecu } or Copie of the Tetiti- b Exemy. Tree * 
 on of the fame Eulalius y in which he damnes and cur- t^coUh. 
 fes all thofe his Predeceffors which went as;ainft the 
 Church of Rome . Amongft which Eulalias muft needes 
 Curfe S. Augufline j And Pope Boniface accepting this 
 Suhmmifsion , muft acknowledge that S. Augufline and 
 the reft of that Councell defer ved this Curfe, and dy- 
 ed under it, as violating ReBx Fidei Regulam ) the Rule 
 of the Right Faith ( fo the Exemplar Trecum beginnes ) 
 by refufing the Topes Authority. I will not deny, but 
 that there are divers Reafbns given by the Learned 
 Romani fls y and Reformed Writers j for and againfl the 
 Truth and Authority of both thefe Injlruments. But be- 
 caufc this is too long to be examin'd here, I wil fay but 
 this 3 and then make my ufe of it to my prefent pur- 
 pofc, giving the Church of Rome free lea veto acknow- 
 ledge thefe Injlruments to betrue 3 or falfe,as they pleafe. 
 
 That which I (hall fay , is this : Thefe Inflruments are let 
 ftand in all Editions of the Councels and Epiflles Deere - 
 tall . As for Example in the Old Edition by IJtdor y Anno . 
 
 1514. And in another Old Edition of them Printed 
 Anno , 1530. And in that which was pubJifhed by 
 T Qrabhe , Anno. 15 38. And in the Edition of Valentinus 
 lo^erius y Anno . 1555 And in that by Surius, Anno. i$6y. 
 
 And in the Edition at Venice by IS {icoltnus, Anno. 1585 . 
 
 And in all of thefe without any Note3orCenfure up- 
 on them. And they are in the Edition of Binius too. 
 
 Anno. 161 8. but there s a Cenfure upon them to keeps 
 a quarter it may be with * Baronius y who was the fir ft * Bara n.Annti. 
 
 ( I think J that ever quarrelled them, and he doth 
 -f. ; * Z 3 it 
 
'* 
 
 1 74 - 
 
 §. 25* 
 
 ibid. §,#/£. 
 
 it tardy. And fince t SeUarmine followes the fame way 
 t Void*, mhi but more doubtfully. This is that 'frhicb I had to 
 fufpc f a y • And the Vfe'tohichl (ball make Qfthefe Injlrumcnts 3 
 Beilar. X. 2. ^ whether they be fm or c dfe, is this. They are either 
 Rdjx)nd' C ' 2 prf- ^eotf'd/e, that is of i ^eflity. If they befalje, then 
 mum. Sed ft for- Boniface the Second , and . is Accomplices at 'Thorne, or 
 ic ill*. EpiftoU f 0 me for them are notorious Formers and that of Records 
 
 vertjmt , mbit r , \ r> 
 
 tnim affirm* &e. or great (jonjeepience concerning the Government 
 and F eace of the whole Church ofChrift, and to the 
 perpetual infamie of that Strand all this foolilhly and 
 to no purpofe.For if there were no fuch Separation, as 
 thefe \ecords mention of the Africane Churches from 
 the B. omane , to what end fhould Boniface , or any other 
 counterfeit an Epiftle of his owne, and a Submillion 
 of Eulalias ? On the other fide, if thefe Injlruments be 
 true (as the jixth Councell of Carthage againll all other 
 Arguments makes me incline to believe they are, in 
 Subftance atIcaft,though perhaps not in all Circum- 
 ftances) then ’tis manifeff, that the Q:urch of Africkfc- 
 parated from the Qmrch of Borne ; That this Separati- 
 on continued above one hundred yeares ; That the 
 Church of A f riche made this Separation in a Nationa.ll 
 Councell of their ownc, which had in it tiro hundred 
 and feVenteene Bilhops : That this Separation was 
 made ( for ought appeares ) only becaufe they at 
 Borne were too ready to entertaine Appeales from the 
 
 Church of Af riche, as appeares in the 
 Cafe of* Apiarius, who then ap- 
 pealed thither • That S. AuguFtine , 
 Eugenios y Vulgentm y and all thole 
 Bilhops ? and other Martyrs which 
 Buffered in the r Vandalike B erf ecu- 
 tion- dyed in the time of this Separation ? That if 
 this Separation were not juft, but a Schifme, then 
 thefe Famous Fathers of the (fburch dyed ( for ought 
 
 appeares) 
 
 * And fo the Councell of (fartloage fent 
 word to l 3 ope Caleftine plainly, that in 
 admitting fuch Appeales , he brake the 
 Decrees of the Councell of Nice. Epitt, 
 Concil. Africa, ad C&lejlinum. c. 105. 
 isfpnd Htcolm.Tom.l . Concil, p, £44. 
 
§. 25 . 
 
 ap pea res ) in A El mil and unrepented Scbifme 3 t and 
 out of the Church. And if fo, 
 
 then how comes S. Amufline to be, ? VUnc ex CffiboUea albo Ex* 
 
 .. , c ° J fungenclafHijjent Stricter ntn tsffrtcano* 
 
 and DC accounted a oamt ail OVii rum AEartyr urn Agminn qui in perfecuti* 
 
 the Chriftian world and at Tome it cne VancUlicapro Ftde C‘athofo* c^.Ba- 
 
 r ir 3 t» II o ^ .• rcn. Ann.A\g. Num. Q2. Et Binius. In 
 
 fdfe. But if til C Separation W ere Notts *d Eptft.Bomfacii 2. udEttUUnm,, 
 
 juft, then is it farre more law- 
 full for the Chuck of England by a National! Councdl 
 to caft off the Topes Vfurpation ( as 4 She did ) then it * 
 was for the AfricanChurth to feparate • Becaufe then 
 the African Church excepted only againft the Pride of 
 T^ome f in Cafe of Appeales , and two other Canons leffe ] 
 material ; But the Qhw cb of England excepts ( behdes 
 this Grievance) againft many Corruptions in VoElrine 
 belonging to the Faith f mth which %ome at that time 
 of the African Separation was not tainted. And I am 
 out of all doubt, that S.AumU. and thofc other Famous 
 
 o 
 
 men in their generations, durft not thus have fepa* 
 rat’d from Tjme, had the Tope had that pcTVtr full Trin - 
 cipahty cV r the TVbote Church of Qn\/l- And that by ChriHs 
 atone Ordinance , and Inftitution * as A, C. pretends ^ s g 
 he had. * * 
 
 I told you a little * before fkat the Topes grew un- Vu m. 12.' 
 der the E n per 01 s till they had over-grown them And * §. 2 |.iV*. 2$? 
 now left A. C . fhould fay, I Ipcake it without proofe, I 
 will give ycu a briefe touch of the Cburch-ftory in that 
 behal fe ; And that from the beginning of the Empe 
 toys becomming ChriJHans, to the time of Charles the 
 Create which containes about five hundred ye ares. 
 
 For fo foone as the Emperors became Chriftian, the 
 Church (which before was kept under by perfecuti- 
 ons)began to be put in better order For the calling and 
 Authority of Bi:hnp> ever the Inferiour Clergic, that 
 was a- thing of k><owne uje y and benefit forTreferVaticn 
 f rVidty and Peace in the Church . And fo much 
 
 *SJerom$* 
 
f Quod intern poflea Vnus ckttus qm f S. Jerome tels us. Though being 
 
 mtMmfJomffi. nonc llimldfe hee was 110 S rcac 
 
 trxkens- (brijh Ecdejtam rumperet, friend tO r £ifl?0pS. And this WJb lo 
 N*m & ^Alexandria a Marco Ev*nge- / ] J : ] m] ~A cso f men f roni 
 
 Ufta resbjteri fimper unmn ex fide- KUea 111 ° 1C mUat& 01 mCn IIOjU 
 ftum in excellenttori gradu coLocatum , the VefV Infancy if l he Chvijh i/tChw ch, 
 
 E. i!C°pum ncminabant , &c. S. Hieion. QS jp [ lac J not been to [hat tilUC 
 vt kptft. ad EvAfrium. bo even accor- , , . 
 
 ding co s. h ierom. Buhops had a\ery contraaicted by any. So that then 
 
 ancient and honourable decent m the there Was HO CoiltrpVerfie about 
 Church from S.Markcthe bvangehit. , _ ... , , 
 
 the Calling j ail agreed upon that. 
 The only Difficulty was to accom- 
 modate the Places and Precedencies 
 of Bifhops, among themfelve-s for 
 the very Nectffiry of Order and Go- 
 vernment . To doe this 3 the molt 
 ecjuail and impaitiall way was , 
 That as the Chw ch is in the Gmmon- 
 wealthgnotthe Common-wealth in it (as 
 * Optatm tclles us. ) So the Honours 
 of the Church fhould a follow the Ho~ 
 n urs of the State And fo it was in fi- 
 nanced, if not Ordered ( as appeares ) by the Canons 
 of the Councels oftbalcedon and lAntioc \ And this was 
 the very fountains or Papali Greatm J]e ^ the Pope having 
 his Refidencein the great Jmperiall Lity. Bur Precedency 
 is one thing, and Author ity is another. It was thought 
 fc iXvpriah; L. & therefore, though ( as b S. Cyprian fpcakes ) Eyifcopa « 
 deSimp.TrtUt, tus ww < y?- the Calling of a ‘Bijhop be one and the fame, 
 that yet among Pijho^s there fhould be a certaine Sub * 
 ordin.it ini , and SubjeClion . The Empire therefore being 
 caftinto feverall Divifions (which they then called 
 Diocefies ) eve y Vioccjje contained feverall Province's, 
 every ‘'Province feverall Bijbopricks -The Chiefe of a Di- 
 ce j]e (in that larger fenfe) was called " f gc^os, and 
 fomecimes a Patriarch. The Chief e of a ‘Province, a Me- 
 tropolitan?. Next the !&ijh>fsm theii fo^erall 9iocejJes 
 r ( as 
 
 And about the end oL ; the fame Epiltle,he 
 acknowledges it. Tr adit tone m ejje Jpo- 
 ftjlicam. Nay mot e then fo,Hcathrrnes 
 plainly, Thac V'oi non eft Saccrdos non ejl 
 Sc cl e ft a % S. Hieron. adverf LuciferUn. 
 Anu in that place molt manifdt > is that 
 S .Ur cm by Saccrdos means a Bi hop, For 
 he (peaks de Sacerdote cjui pot eft at em ha - 
 bet Ordinandi , which in S. Jeromes owr.e 
 lodgement no meere Pi i-lt ha \ but a Bi- 
 ihop only. S . Hicr. Epift . ad Evagrium. 
 So even with him, noBiihop, and no 
 Church. 
 
 * Non ?nim Pvefpub.eft in Eceleftd: ftdSc - 
 elefta in Repub. ( )ptat. L. 3 . 
 a Con c .Cawed. C an. 9 . & ACtiei6, 
 
1 77 
 
 (as wc now ufe chat word ) Among Tbefe there was 
 effeffuall fubjeftion relpeclivejy grounded upon Canon 2 
 and To fitiy eLcfto in their fever all Quarters. But over • — 
 
 them none at all. All the Difference there, was but Ho- 
 norary } not Autoritatiye. If the Ambition of fome parti- 
 cular pcrlons did attempt now and then to breake 
 thefe Bounds,it is no marvcl.For no Calling can fan&i- 
 fieall that have it. And Socrates tellcs us, That in this 
 way the Bijhops of Alexandria and Rome advanced them- 
 felves to a great height wf* tvs even beyond 
 
 the cpality of Bifhops . Now upon view of Stcry it will 
 appearc, that what advantage accrewed to Alexandria , 
 was gotten by the violence of 7 l?eopbilus , Tatriarch 
 there, A man of exceeding great Learning, and of no *&f rbyvnjut ear* 
 leile violence • and hemadeno little advantage^outof * n *f™ e (*)*&** 
 this. That the EmpreJJe Budoxia ufed his helpefor the clrmjfvita/M 
 calling of S, ihryjojlome out of Conjiantinople , But the ^ 
 
 (Roman Trelates grew by a lleddy and conftant watch. )wiZ%*ccideta- 
 fulnelfe upon all Occafions toincreafe the Honour lib ur arrogantly 
 of that Sea. Interpofing and * a (fuming to tbemfelyes to be g^liu 
 c Vindices Canonum (as S .Gregory Na^. fpeaks)Defenders not. in S. Grcgori 
 and Reftorersof the Canons of the Church, which 
 Was a faire pretence, and took extremely well.But yet efl Occidentals 
 the world tooke notice of this their aime. For in all S *~ 
 
 Contcllations between the Eajl and the V^tfi, w dl were ? h*c H na frit 
 nor fmafnor few, the iPeJlern Bifhops oljeBed Leyity to cau f a w**? 
 the Eafiern • And they again Arrogancy to the Bifhops of the piZlipi^Pwti- 
 Weft , ast Bilks obferves, and upon very warrantable crcaius Jit 9 
 teftimonies.For all this, the B ifl? op of ( l{ome continued eX Jf \ 9 ^ 
 in good Obedience to the Emperor y enduring hisCen- vrtf rnitti qttif- 
 
 thc Ratification of thatchoife. Infomuch chataboiit rat ore Gregorius 
 
 i , n r 7 r *ii ‘Viaconus. &c: 
 
 the yeare 579 when all Italy was on lire with the pi atnia in ^ 
 Lombards ^nd^feiagius the fecond conihckmcJ through P'lagH 2. & 
 
 A a rhe ° nuph ‘* f * 
 
i 7 8 
 
 fOnuph JnPlat. 
 tnvhaTonif.p 
 
 §- 11 . 
 
 the neceffity of the times contrary to the Example of 
 hi* Predecejfors to entcre upon the Popedome without 
 the Emperors leave , 5. Gregory then a Deacon was 
 fhorcly after fent on Embafie to excufe it. About this 
 time brake out the Ambition oft lobn Patriarch of 
 (fonflantinople affe&ing to be FniVerfaH Bijhop, He was 
 countenanced in this by Maw ictus the Emperor, but 
 fowerly oppofed by Pelagins and S. Gregory. Info. 
 
 much , that S. Gregory 
 fates plrinly 3 77;4t this Print of 
 his jht'V’es that the times of Anti - 
 chrift Tbere neare* So as yet 
 (and this was now upon the 
 
 a Jft hac ejus fuperbla quid aliud nift propinqua 
 jam s ntiebrifti effe tempora defgnatur. S. Greg. 
 £.4, £/>*'#. 7 8. 
 
 f It may be they will fay S. Gregory did not in- 
 veigh againft the Thing , but the 2 ° cr/bn. That . 
 
 John of Conftantinople Should take that upon him, poillt of JtX hundred y earcS af- 
 
 which belonged to the P.pt Butitis manifeftby tcr Qm(t) there Was HO Vnir 
 S. Gregortes ov/nzzcxt , that he ipeakes agamit 
 
 the Thing it Jelf, that neither the Bidiop of Rome, 
 nor any, other , ought to take on him that Title. 
 
 Cura totius Ecclefa dr Trincipatus S, Retro 
 ommittitur^dr tamcn Vrdverfalis Ap ofl olas non 
 >ocatur.S,Chzg L.^ Spift. 76. ( Therefore nei- 
 ther is his fucce{for,Vniverfall Bi(hop . ) N unquid 
 ego hoc in re pr&priam caufam defend? ? nunquid 
 Jpecialem injunam V indie 0 ? & non magis can- Upon t Boniface the third that 
 Jam Omnipotent is Dei & Vniverfalis Ccclefut? U n nnr whirU rtn/o 
 
 where he plainly denyes, that he (peaks in his Very honour , Which tWO 
 
 owne Cauie,or in the Caufe of his Sea .Ter Tone* 
 randam C h alee donen fern Sjnodum hoc Nomen Ro. 
 
 Pontifici oh latum eft , fed nullus eorum unquam 
 hoc finghlaritatis 'Uocabulum ajfumpftt , v.ec uti 
 confenftti ne dum privatum aliquid daretur Vni f 
 be nor e debito Sacerdotes privarentur Vntverft , 
 d c .Where he plainly layes,the Romane Bilhops 
 reje6fedthisTitle./£*£ And yet for all this, Pope 
 • Gregory the fevenxh delivers it as one of his Di- 
 lates in a Councell held at Rome about the yeare 
 1 07 6. ffuod folus Rom anus P ontifex jure dica- 
 tur Vniverialis Baron.*/ An W76.N. 3 1 ,&. 7 > 2 . 
 
 * Ab/ita Cerdibus Chriftiansrum Nomen i ft ud 
 BlafpbemU. S. Greg. L. 4. Epift. 7 6. In ifto fee - 
 /eft a vocabulo e on fentirc, nihil eft aliud quam ft- 
 demperdere. S.Gteg.L.q.Spift .2$, 
 
 yerjall Bif)op , No One Mo* 
 narch over the whole Mili- 
 tant Church . But Mauricius be- 
 ing depoied and murtbered 
 by Phocas . Phocas conferred 
 
 of his. Predecejfors had de- 
 claimed againit as *MonJlrcus 
 and r Pla/phemous , if not 
 tichriftian. Where, by the way 
 either thefc two Popes y Pela - 
 gtus and S. Gregory erred in 
 this waighty buflnefle about 
 an J^niycrJ all Bifwp over the 
 whole Church. Or if they 
 did not Erre, C Boniface , and 
 the reft which after him 
 
 tooke it upon thftn were 
 in their very Predecejfors judgment^ Antkmftian . 
 
 But 
 
§. 25- 
 
 I ~}9 
 
 * ZJ ana tunc ba- 
 be bat ur Clri & 
 
 But to proceed. * As yet the right of Elefl ion or Ratifi- 
 cation of the Tope continued in the Emperor. But then the ffffu fuafo , 
 Lombards grew fo great in l talie , and the Empire was **timpera- 
 fo infefted with Saracens j and fuch changes hapned cZfi™ 
 
 in all parts of the world, as that neither ior the pre- majfent. Plat, in 
 ient,the Homage of the ‘Tope was ufefull toth eEmpe- ZHaSeverm > l » 
 ror j nor the Protection of the Emperor availeable for the 
 Tope . By this meanes thcSifhopof Rome was left to 
 play his owne game by himfelte. A thing which as it 
 pleafed him well cnough-So both he, and his Succef- 
 iors made great Advantage by it. For being growne 
 to that Eminence by the Emperor, and the greatneffe 
 of that City and Place of his abode, He found 
 himfelfe the more free , the greater the tempeff 
 was, that beat upon the other : And then firfi, 
 t He fit himfelfe to alienate the hearts 
 of the Italians from the Emperor. Next 
 he Oppofed himfelfe againft him. 
 
 And about the yeare fiven hun- 
 dred and ten 3 Tope Confiantine the 
 firfl didalfo firftof all openly con- 
 front Philippicus the. Emperor in de- 
 fence of images. hs*7)nuphrtus 
 
 relies us. After him Gregory the fe- Mafier) Platina* in vita Iohan. 6. <vAbJi- 
 cond y and the third tookeuphis ex- was tl ^ n £ ™? eror . 
 
 1 i f. j i i.t i K T / * Triwus omnium P^om. Eonttficum Im- 
 ample,and did the lllee by Leo IJau- peratoriGracoPhilippicoin os rejiflere pa- 
 
 rus,. 'By this tim C the Lombards b e- Lm aufus -ft . Onuph in Plat, in vita C on- 
 gan to pinch very dofe and to vex y pjacina & ^ Gre%or ^ & ^ . 
 on all fides not Italy only , but 
 Rome to o. This drives the Pope to feeke a new Ta- 
 tron . And very fitly he meetes with Charles Mar tell 
 in France, that famous warriour againft the Saracens. labor amiRc- 
 
 b Him he implores in defence of the Church againft m f & Eccle d* 
 the Lombards « This addreffc feemes very advifcdly ponauxiMfcl- 
 taken, at 1-eaft it proves very fortunate to them both. ret & c ' p,atin a. 
 
 A a 2 For 
 
 f Guam TheophylaUus Ex arenas Impe- 
 r at or is It aliam peter et, Milites Italicize* 
 riti ne quid malt ejus Advent us port cade „ 
 ret^qnod fuperioribns temporibus fire ma- 
 vis cum Pontificibus quam cum Impera - 
 toribus fenfi fent Jngrejfur urn %j>mam in - 
 terficere con/Htuerant ( And the Empe- 
 rors owne Governer was faine to be de- 
 fended from the Emperors owne louldi- 
 ers by the Popes power, who had got- 
 ten intereft in them againft their own 
 

 *\ 
 
 1S0 
 
 §.Zf; 
 
 J%ut res femel incap U cum Longohardi- *p 0/ r fhoYt time it diffofoed theKjWV- 
 
 eu*. d 0 f h Lomhards in Italy M 
 
 had then itood two hundred and 
 foureyeares, which was the Topes fecurity; And it 
 brought the [frown of France into the Houfe of f barks, 
 and ihortly after the Weferne Empire. And now 
 began the Tope to be great indeed, for by the Bounty 
 
 of t Pip in fonne of Charles, that which . 
 
 f IRjdditttsttMqs %j>mams Ex ar chat us taken from the Lombards WdS 
 
 facet, tfi.piatuw vita Ste^fecmdi. g^n to the Pope. So that now of a 
 
 Tifhop, he became a Temporal! Trince. 
 But when Charles the Great had fet up the Wefterne 
 Empire, then he refumed the Ancient and Griginall 
 P owerof the Emperor, to governe the Church, to call 
 Louncells , to order Tapall EleBions . And this Power 
 continued in his Tofterity. For this Right of the Em- 
 peror was in force and ufe in Gregory the feyentb's time, 
 
 * r . _ . _ * Who was confirmed in the Tope dome 
 
 * Imperator in y rat tarn cum Gref or to re- i _ T i r i i i L / 
 
 dtit } eundenujue in Pontifical confirm*- ELeWy the fourth. Whom he djttr- 
 
 vit, ut turn Imperator urn mos crat. Plat. mr J depofed . And it might have 
 
 continued longer, it the Jucceedmg 
 Emperors had had abilities enough to fecurc, or vin- 
 dica:c their owne Tygbt. But the Tope keeping a 
 ftrong Councell about him, and meeting with fome 
 Weake Trinces , and they ott times diffracted with 
 great and dangerous warres, grew ftronger, till he got 
 the better. So this is enough to fhew how the Topes 
 
 f Multi ddnde c * UIle ^ U P bythefimperorx,till they over- topped them, 
 fiiermt Jmpera* which is all l faid beforehand have now proved. And 
 tores Hen fimtUo- C [ HS vvas about the yeare, 1073- (For the whole Tope - 
 
 fkrfaftos fifbige- dome of Greg. tfa feyenth was begun and ended within 
 re non fuit dtffi- the Tyiigne oi Wiliam the Conautrour.) Yet was it carri- 
 
 mm omnium fs- eci 111 iucceeding times with great changes of fortune 
 curt &C.G&.L, and different fucctflc. The Emperor fomerimes pluck- 
 e. ii, j n gf rom t [ ie (p 0 p ey and the ^Tope from the Emperor, 
 
 winning 
 
 X 
 
♦-X5- 
 
 iSi 
 
 winning ana ioo* * For ina SynoJ at 'Rjmte about the yeare i qj&. Pope Gref, the 
 (J nC j ground as /wwf&cfUbliihsdcertainebriefeConclulions, twenty (even iri 
 , 9 r . . \.i . number, upon which ftands almoft all the Greatneffe of the Pi- 
 
 their bpilltS, Abl- p 3C y TncfeConcIufions are called Dittatut Tap*. And they arc 
 lities Aids & Op* reckoned up by 'Baronin* in the yeare 107 6. Nu .3 1,3 But 
 } . . whether this did now firil: invade the Church,! can- 
 
 portumties Were, not certainly fay. The chiefe of thefc Propositions follow here, 
 till at the laft the fhfod folus %om. Pont if ex jure dicatur V ni verfalis , 
 
 fluff d folius Papx pedes omnes Principes deofctilentur. 
 jfhtod liceat illi Imperatores Deplore, 
 
 ffuodnulh Sy nodus abfq; prxcepto ejus debet Gene rails vecari. 
 flub d nullum Capitulum , nullufcptu Liber Canonicus habea- 
 tur abfque illius Authoritate. 
 
 fhtod fententiaillws dnullo debet retrdftari, & ip/e omnium 
 folus retrafftire pot eft, 
 
 ffuod Rom. Ecclefia nunquam erravit , nec in perpetuum , 
 Script ur a te ft ante, errabit. 
 
 Quod Rom. ?on: if ex , ft Cano nice fuerit ordinatus, merit is 
 B. Petri indubitanter effeitur fan Plus, 
 flu odd fdeiitate Inipmrum fubditos potcjl abfolvere. 
 
 Pope Ictled him- 
 ielfe upon the 
 Grounds laid by 
 * Gregory the fe- 
 Venth, in the great 
 * power which he 
 now ules in and 
 over thele parts of 
 the Ch rift id irorld. 
 
 Third ly, A.C . knowing ’tis not enough to fay this, N u m . 13. 
 That the Tope is Taflour of the whole Church , labours to 
 prove it. And firft he telsus, that Irenaus intimates fo 
 much • but he doth not tell us where And he is 
 mijch Icanted of Ancient Proof e , if Irenreus (land 
 alone. B elides frendus was a Bifhop of the Gallicane 
 Churchy and a very unlikely man to Captivate the Li- 
 berty of chat Church under the more power full Princi- 
 pality of Tome, And how can we have better evi- 
 dence o'" his Judgement touching that Principality, then 
 the A&ions of fusLife ? When Pope Vidor Excom- 
 municated the Afian Churches Lftfow tall at a blow, f SufekL^. 
 was not Iren teas the Chiefe man that reprehended C ' 2 1 » 
 him for it ? A very unmeet and undutifull thing, fure., 
 it h d been in Irethtus . in deeds totaxe him of rafh- 
 nelTe and lnconiiderateneiTe, whom in words A , C. 
 would h we to be acknowledged by him y Tbe Supreme 
 and Infallible Pajlour of the Vniverjall Church, But 
 the Place of Iren^us, which A, C. meanes, (l thinkej 
 is this, where he uiestheie words indeed, but fhert 
 
 A a 3 of 
 
iSz 
 
 §. 25. 
 
 of <A. C*- lenfe of it. t To tbu 
 
 t Adhanc Scclefam, frofterpottntUrem ^ f pejkes Q f Rmg \ prop . 
 
 Prwapalitatem , neccjje eft tmnem con- 1 / r r 
 
 venire Ecciefiam. i.e. eos qxi funt #*- ter potentiorem principalitatem , 
 
 fyue fide ! • T n qua f-mper ab fa the more poster full Principality of 
 
 r onfcrvataeft eaqateft ab , . * , 1 . 
 
 .aditio. Iren .L.3.C.3. ** , tu neceftary that every Churchy 
 
 that it , the faithfully undique 3 round 
 about Jhould have recourfe . Should have recourfe , fo 
 
 4.C.p^s. J . C. tranHates it. And what doth this availe him ? 
 
 Very greacrealon was there in Iremut his time, That 
 upon any Difference arihng in the Faith f)mnes undique 
 FidelesftiW the Fa ic h f-iil 1 ,or s i F you wilfall the Churches 
 round about, fliould have recourfe, that is, refort to 
 Rome , being the Impmall City , and fo a Church of 
 more power full Principality , then any other at that 
 timeinthofe parts ot the world. Well : Will this 
 exalt Rome to be the Head of the Church Vni vet fall? 
 What if the States aod ‘Policies of the world be much 
 changed hnce, and this Conveniency of referring to 
 Rome be quite ceaied ? 7 hen is not Rome devtflcd of 
 her more poveerfull ‘Principality* But the : aning of 
 A . Q. is, We mud fo have recourfe to Rome , . s to iub- 
 mic our Faith zo hers : And then not onelv i i Irena - 
 m his time, but through all times reforme Our lelvcs 
 by her Rule : That is, all the Faithfuli , not undife 
 * round about , but ubi<f ) every where, muft agree with 
 Pome in point of Faith. This he meanes,and Rome 
 may thank him for it. But this Iren<eus faith not 3 nor 
 will his words beare it,nor durft A.C. therforeconftrue 
 him fo, but was content to fmoothitover with this 
 ambiguous phrafe of having recourfe to Pome. Yet this 
 is a place as much itoodupon by them, as any other 
 in all Antiquity. And fticuid 1 grant them their owne 
 fenfe, That all the faithfuli everywhere muft agree with 
 ‘Rome (which 1 may give 5 but can never grant) yet 
 were not this faying any whitprcjudiciallto us now. 
 
 For 
 
‘ "• o 
 
 (j.t?. 1 S 3 
 
 For firft here's a poyoerfuU Principality afcribed to the 
 Church of Rome . And that no man of learning doubts 
 butthc Church of Rome had within its ownc Patriar- 
 chate and Iur if diftion ; and that was very large , con- 
 taining 4 all the Provinces in the Diocefte of Italy ( in 
 the old fenfe of the word 'Dioceffe) which ‘Provinces onandLimusof 
 the Lawyers and others termc Suburbicarias. There ^^ 0 ? the 
 were ten of them. The three {lands, Sicily, Corftca^nd Nicen CounceJ. 
 Sardinia i and the othery^e# upon the firmeland of 
 Italie . And this (I take it) isplaine in Ruffinut. For 
 he living fhortly after the Nicene Councell , as he did,and 
 being of Itafy, as he was, he might very well know 
 the^#^ of that Patriarchs Iurifdidtion , as it was b Apul Atexan- 
 then pra&ifed : b And he layes exprefly, That according Iriam 3 ut in urbe 
 to the old Cuftome , the Romane Patriarchs Charge yeas 
 confined within the Limits of the Suburbicarian Churches, vetur , ut uu 
 To avoid the force of this Teflimony 1 Cardinal 1 Pe- utin i 
 
 r J 1 Suburbicanaru 
 
 ron laves load upon Ruffinus. For he charges him Ecclefiarum fo - 
 with Pafsion, Ignorance , and RafhnelTe. And one g e - 
 
 peece of his Ignorance is, Thathee hath illtranfla- En/efMtf cX 
 ted the Canon of the Councell of Nice. Now be that as ' 2. of 
 
 it may, I neither do, nor can approve his Tranflation of s Repl} * ^ 
 that Canon 3 nor can it be eafily proved, that he pur- 
 pofely intended a T ranflation. All that I urge is, that 
 Ruffinus living in that time and Place, was very like 
 well to know and underftand the Limits and Bounds 
 of that Patriarchate of Pome , in which hee lived. 
 
 Secondly heres , 1 hat it had potentiorem , a more 
 powerful! Principality then other Churches had. And that 
 the Proteflants grant too j and that not onely becaufe 
 the Romane Prelate was Ordine primus , firfl: in Order, 
 and Degree, which fome One muft f ^ u 
 
 cum Orientates efr Graca Eerie* 
 be, tO avoid Confi non* T Put cdfo fa, & tslfrcant etiam, multu inter ft 
 
 becaufe the Romans Sea had Teorme W‘«tUmibu tumui,»« ren - 
 
 , ) r, , , , tur 3 ' jedattor alui, & minus turbu- 
 
 a great deals of Credit , and gained a imajnerit. c*\v. L./\.Jnjlit.e,6,§.i6 r 
 
 great 
 
§.2J« 
 
 * 
 
 0 / Pointer to it f dfe in Church Affaires : ‘Be- 
 caufe while the Greeks, yea and the African Churches too ) 
 were turbulent y and difirafted with many and dangerous 
 Opinions , the Church of %ome all that while , and a good 
 while after Iren aim too , was more calme , and con fl ant to the 
 Truth. Thirdly. here's * Necclsity (fay theyjrecjuired, 
 That eyery - is, the faithful!, which are 
 
 every where 5 <g x h that Clourch. But what? 
 
 fimply with th. t ( m vhat ever it doe, or believe ? 
 No, nothing leiTc. Fc haus addes ,with that ( hurch • 
 in q ua, in which is con} a i that Tradition which was de- 
 livered by theApofiles . A > d God forbid but it fhould 
 be neceffary for all Churches , and all the faithful l to 
 agree with that Ancient Apo/lolike ( hurch in all thofc 
 Things,in which it keepes to the DoBrine and Tifci- 
 pline dehyered by the Apofiles. In Irenes us his time it 
 kept thele better then any other Church, and by this in 
 part obtained poUntiorem ‘Trincipolitatew 7 a Gi eater 
 power then other Churches , but not oyer all other 
 Churches. And(as they underfland Iren a )a Necefsicy 
 lay upon all other C hurches to agree with this : but this 
 Neccfliry was laid upon them by the Then Integrity of 
 the Chriftian Faith there profefedpot by the r Vniyerfality 
 of the Romanejurifdittion now challenged. And let Rome 
 reduce it ielfe to the Obferyation of Jraditicn Apo - 
 flohke , to which it then held , and 1 will fay as Ire - 
 mus did- That it will be then necejfary for eyery C hurch , 
 and for the Faithfull eyery where , to agree with it. 
 Laftly, let me Obferve too, That lrenaus made no 
 doubt, but that Rome might fall away from Apoflolicall 
 Tradition , as well as ocher Particular Churches of great 
 hfame have done. For he does not fay fin qua feryanda 
 jemper erit , fed in qua feryata efi: Not, in which 
 Church the Dodtrinc delivered from theApofiles fhal 
 ever be entirely kept : That had bcene home indeed : 
 
 But 
 
§. 2 ?. 
 
 
 But in which, by God’s grace and mercy. It was 
 to that time of Irenes lo kept and prcferved. So 
 wee have here in Imueus his ludgcment, the Church 
 of P x ome then Intire , but not Infallible, And en- 
 dowed with a more powerful! Principality then other 
 Churches , but not with an H Vniverfall Dominion 
 over all other Churches • which is the Thing in 
 Queftion. 
 
 But to this place of Irenreus A . C . joynes a reafon N u m, 14.2 
 of his owne. For he tels us the Difhop of %ome is 
 S. Peter's Succefour , and therefore to Him we muft 
 have recourfe. The Fathers I deny not, aferibe very 
 much to S.Peter: But tis to S . Peter in his owne 
 perlbn. And among them, Epiphanius is as free, and 
 as frequent in extolling S. Peter, as any of them: And 
 yet did he never intend to give an Abfoluts Principality 
 to Pome in S. Peter's right. There is a Noted Place in 
 that Father , where his words are 
 .heft, t 
 
 O. Peter f/;e J 7 r/r of the yipojtles , 4 7*40 * Ecclefta T>ci tdificata 
 
 firme %ocke,ubon which the Church of T m ^fcrorum^vaUl, untM c ver f H ' s ii. 
 
 r 1 • V •/ 1 ir ^ r tt it Um >& c > jnxtaomnem entmrmdamin 
 
 UOdtS built , d>?a of Hell Ipfo fir mat a eft files ,qni accent Clavem 
 
 Fall not prevaile avainfl it. &c- For C riorum, &c. in hoe wim mines 
 
 . 1 . 1 r • 1 ‘ 1 r Jf tones ac Suvtilit cites fidei itmeniuntur^ 
 
 in him the Faith us made firme every Epiphan. U Ancorato. sdlt.Pxnf. Lat 0 
 
 way , It ho received the Jfey of HeaVen , 1 5 ^ 4 . f°K 497* Sdit . vero Graces 
 
 <&c. For in him all the Queflkns and LAtm,To -*-P- J 4 - 
 Subtilties of the Faith are found . This is a great 
 Place at firft light too, and defaves a Marginall 
 Note to call young Pleaders eyes to view it. And 
 it hath this TS[pte in the Old Latine Edition at Pa- 
 ris, 1564. Petri Principatus , Hsr Praflantia , Peters 
 Principality, and Excellency. This Place , as much 
 fhew as it make for the pomane Principality , I {hall 
 eafily cleare, and yet doe no wrong, either to 
 S fPeter^ or the Pomane Church . For moft nianifeft 
 
 Bb i£ 
 
 
l8<5 
 
 §.zy. 
 
 Epiphanius. 
 
 e c* T!?f) j*5,&C. 
 
 ■S’.Ma:. 1 6 . 1 7. 
 
 * 77 077 £X«££0 , -{'. It iS j That the authority of S. Peter is 1 urged here 
 
 SwArSmieift of co P roove c ^ e Godhead of the Holy Ghoft. And then 
 follow the Elogyes given to S. Peter y the better to 
 fet offhand make good that Authority • As that hec 
 was b Prince ps ApoHolorum , the Prince of the Apo- 
 flies , and pronounced bleffed by Qhrifl ; becaufe as God 
 the Father r evealed to him the Godhead of the Sonne : fo 
 did the Sonne the Godhead of the Holy Ghoft. After 
 Tigs*} 7 n 7 gdV. this Epiphanius calls Him c foiidam Petram y a fo* 
 lid Pocke, upon which the Church of God Was founded y 
 and againft which the Gates of Hell jhould not preVaile . 
 And addes y That the Faith Was rooted 3 and made 
 d xj 1 7 TVXTV. yi, &c. firme in him d eVery Way , in him who received the Rfy 
 of Heaven . And after this , he gives the Reafon 
 of all ; c Becaufe in Him : (mark I pray, kis ftill 
 in Him , as he was blefled by that Revelation from 
 God the FatherS. Matthew 16 . ) were found all the mk. 
 I0A0 yiputfe the Very Hfceties and examine fje of the Chri- 
 Jlian Faith. For he profefled the Godhead of the 
 Sonne, and of the Holy Ghofl ; And lo Omni mo- 
 do every Point of Faith was rooted in Him. And 
 this is the full meaning of that Learned Father in 
 this paffige: Now therefore Puilding the Qmrch 
 upon Saint Peter, in Epiphanius his fenfe , is not, as if 
 He andhisSucceJJors were to be Monarchs over it for ever: 
 
 But it is the edifying and efta- 
 Jjhtiftfiuf eft nobis re- blifhing the Church in the true 
 
 W* of CMft h *• Conlef- 
 
 jtuet* emnem modum. Primo, quod con- fl oil which S, Peter made. Alld 
 Chrijium efitF,I,um V'ivi- f f ffo exprc ff cs himfclfe elfc- 
 
 vi, & fiatim audivit,fuper bane Petram * 
 
 foiuU fidei adifeabo Eccieftam me am. where molt plainly : Saint Pe- 
 
 -pEttam de Sp. SanEio idem &c. Epi- j ejr / f^i^ fog ) J^ho Was made tOUS 
 phan.X. 2. Haref. 59 contra Catbaros. . ' , c * 1 r r 
 
 T+if. 500. fdit.GrtcoJLat. tndeed a foltd r Ppck hrming the Faith 
 
 of our Lord. On which ( Pjcke ) the 
 Church is built juxta omne modum 5 mrj Way. Firfi that 
 
 he 
 
i8 7 
 
 \ ** * / if 
 
 — — 7nd> - 
 
 •ur£i <r>i Ct>/B ' 
 
 he fonfeffed Chrift to be the Sonne of the Living God , and 
 by and by be beard : r ? Jpon this Ppcke of folid Faith J m& 
 build my Church . And the fame Confefion he made of the 
 Holy Ghofl . Thus was S .Peter a (olid Rocke upon 
 which the Church was founded omni modo , every t 
 way. That is, the Faith of the Church was * con- 
 firmed by him in every Point. But that S. Peter was any ibid/" 
 P^ocke, or Foundation of the Church, lo as that he 
 and his Succeffours mull be relied on in all matters 
 of Faith y and governe the Church like Princes, or Mo* 
 narchs , that Epiphanius never thought of And that 
 he did never thinke Co, I prove it thus. For belide 
 this apparent meaning of his Context ( as is here ex- 
 preffed) how could hee poflSbly 
 
 thinke of a Supremacy due to S. Pe- b IRe P rim * ffpeaking of s James the 
 
 ter s Succefsour } that in molt ex- ^ Hum kJucL m , mnoj-mn 
 prefle tertnes and that b twice re- •* terris Tb-omm r D<mmm 
 , M d, nukes S. W the brothe, 
 of our Lord, and not S.Teter, fac- 
 eted our Lord in the Principality of the Church . And 
 Epiphanius was too full both of Learning, and Indu- 
 strie, to (peake contrary to himfclfe in a r Point of this 
 
 moment. 
 
 Next, fince^ C (needs no better with Irenes, he n u m. ik 3 
 will have it out of Scripture. And he Hill tcls us ? the dl.cp. 58. 
 IBifhop of Ppme is S. Peters Suae four. Well. Suppofc 
 that. What then? What? Why then he (iiccceded in 
 all S.Peter’s" Prerogatives which arc Ordinary , and 
 belonged to him as a ftijhop , though not in the Rdpondeo pon- 
 hxtraoj dinary, which belonged to him a 1 an ApoHle. tificatum. 
 
 For that’s it which you all lay, d buc no man proves. If 2 uN* 10" 
 this beio, yet then l muft tell ji.C.S.Peter in his ~ 1 ! 
 
 Ordinary Power was never made Pafiour of the whole 
 Church : Nay in his Extraordinary , he had no e m r )re eBellar. ibid. 
 pcrtoerfuU Principality then the o'-.e* ApoHles had. 
 
 B b 2 A 
 
i88 
 
 §. 2?. 
 
 5 °. 
 
 SJok 
 
 * The Fathers gave three Prerogatives to A a Primacy of Order Was never de- 
 W nied ® M b y thc Trotejlants : And an 
 
 0 f p g wer. RaynokU*»f. Hart.c.j . Vniverf ill Supremacy of Polder was 
 <Divif. 3, And he proves it at large. neV er granted him by the Primu 
 
 trn Cbriftians. Yea but Cbrijl promifed the key a to 
 »s.Mat.i6.i8* S. Peter, b S.Mat,\ 6 . True, but fo did he to all the reft 
 c s.Mat.i 8.18. 0 f the Affiles, C S. M*f.i8.and S.Io/;.2o. And to *kir 
 sjoh.20.22. s uccc {f ours>a smuchas to His. So ’tis Ttbi y &*IIlis,, 
 
 notTtbiftionlllis. I give the Keyes to thee and them, 
 not to thee to exclude them. VnlcfTe any man will 
 Asi hoc Petr0 thinkc Heaven Gates fo eafic, that they might open 
 tan turn diffum and {hut them without the Kjeyes. And d S. Augustine 
 ej}, non facithoG j s p^ine: faid onely to S. Peter, then the 
 
 Vrak Church hath no power to doe it ; which God forbid. 1 
 The t\eyes therefore were given to S. Peter , and the 
 reft in a Figure of the Church, to whole power, and for 
 whole ufe They were given. But there s not one Key 
 in all that Bunch y that can let in S. Peters Succeffour, to 
 a more power full Principality univerjall then thc Succejfors 
 of the other ApofUs had, 
 
 Yea but Chrifi prayed. That S. Peters Faith miglrt 
 not faile. e S. Luke 12. That s true. And in that fenfe, 
 that Chrifi prayed, S. Peters Faith failed not; That 
 is, in Application to his perfbn for his PerfeVerance in 
 the Faith y as f S. Proffer applies it. Which Per (ever ance 
 retHT mu ft °^ e dn ^ ^kw'tohdge to the grace of (fhriji’s 
 Gent. e ,2 \. C * Pwyer fa him, not to the power and ability of his owne 
 • N Free-Will y as 5 SL Jerome tels us. h Bel- 
 
 l R x TZt ft Ctrnm likes nocthis: Becauf*(b ith 
 ft ate fi voluifftt , ut non deficeret fides he) Chrifi here obtained fome fpeciall 
 
 lagiatos' S,HlQ: ° n ‘ L ‘ 2 ' ^ ver ‘ HS Pc ~ Priviledge for S.Bcta, whereas Per - 
 h AUquid fperiale. Bcllar. Z.4. de Rom . feV trance in Grace is a Gift common ft 
 /W.r.3. S.Seeundo, quia fine. ajl[he £/ e & And he is fo farre right. 
 
 And the Speciall Grace which this Prayer of Chri ft ob- 
 tained for S. Pefer was , That he fhould not fa! 1 into 
 
 ^4 iiM. \ G . 
 A.C'p‘5 8 . 
 
 • S.Luk. 22.J 2 * 
 
 f r Deum dare y ut 
 in fiie ferfeve- 
 
 « 
 
§. Z5. iSp 
 
 a finall Jpoflacy • no nor when Sathan had fifed him 
 to thebranne, that he fell molt horribly even into a 
 threefold Venyall of his Mafter, and that with a Cui fc. 
 
 And to recover this, and Perlevere, was illiquid fpeciale 
 I trow, if any thing ever were. But this will not down 
 with Belhrmine. No, The liquid f pedate , the fpeciall * vt nec ipfi at 
 Thirty here obtained was ( faith he ) That neither S. Peter Fmi f ex ^eret 
 hmjelfe, nor any other that fhould Jit inhk Seat fould eyu ^omrafiXmJve 
 teach any thing contr ary to the true Faith . That S -Peter after 
 his recovery fhould preach nothing either as Jpoftle or 
 T 3 ifbop contrary to the Faith, will eafily be granted de %$m.PeM.c. 
 him; But that none of his Succejjors fhould doe it, but pjiiegtjm^ 
 be all Infallible , that certainly never came within the 
 CompafTe of ( 2 {ogayi pro te Petre , I have prayed for 
 thee Peter. And BelUrmines Proofe of this is his juft 
 Confutation. For he prooves this Expofi t ion of that 
 Text only by the Teftimony of feyenPopes in their 
 owne Caufc. And then takes a leape to Theophyl&d , 
 who (ayes nothing to the purpofe, $0 that upon the 
 matter Bellarmm confefles there is not one Father of 
 the (fhurch difinterefled in theCaufe, that underftands 
 this Text as ‘ r BelIarmiue doth, till you come downe to 
 Tlxophylaft. So the Popes Infallibility appeared to no bo- 
 dy but the Popes themfe!ves,for aboveaThoufand 
 yeares after Christ . For lo long it was before * Tbeophy- * TJe , 
 lad lived. And the fpitc of it is , Theophylad could not floruit circa An. 
 lee it neither. For the moft that Bellarmine makes him ® # 
 
 lay.is but this: t ‘Fee auf el account thee as chiefe of my VT Frmcipcm, Di- 
 fciples^confirme the reft for this becomes Theejpbich art to he ftiputer*,conflr- 
 a ppek and Foundation of the Church after me. For this is 
 Perfonall too 3 and of S. Peter , and that as he was an pofr me Sc- 
 Jpoftlt. For otherwife then as an Jpojlle , he f 
 
 was not a tffocke or Foundation of the Church, no not Beiiar. l . 4. De 
 in a Secondary fenfe. The fpeciall priy Hedge therefore 
 which Chrift prayed for, was perjonall to S , Peter , and Thcophyl.^ 2 1 , 
 
 B b 3 is s Lhc * 
 
ipo 
 
 f Impetravit. 
 &c. ibidk $. Eft 
 i^iturtertia. 
 
 * £x effdbus pri 
 vilegiis pnmum 
 fortajfe non ma- 
 navit adp'fteres, 
 
 at Jei usidttm hne 
 dubio nhinavu ad 
 PujtcrosjiveSHC - 
 ee f jores. 
 
 Jbid,§ . A.cerum 
 Rrivilegium. 
 
 f Bcllar. L, 4. 
 dt%o, Pont.c.%. 
 
 fc.Iehn. 11.42. 
 
 w "Donum hoe lo- 
 co Retro impe- 
 tratum.etiam ad 
 SKCceJsores perm 
 finet.Bd.L.^. tU 
 Rom. Pont. c. f. 
 S.Qgarto, Do- 
 oumhoc. 
 
 §. 25- 
 
 is that which bcfotc I mentioned. And © ellamine 
 himfelfe faycs , T bat Chrifi t obtained by this Prayer tV?o 
 ‘Triytiedges y efptciall ones jor S /Peter. The one, That he 
 Jhould neyer quite fall from the true F aithjhoTv Jlrongly J oeyer 
 he were tempted. The other, TW there (hould neytr be found 
 any fitting in his State , that fi?ould teach againfl it . Nov? 
 for the firft of thcf e * !Bellarmine doubts it did not flow 
 
 j * 
 
 over to his Succefiors . Why then 'tis true,which I here 
 fay. That this was PtrfenaU to S. Peter. But the feeond 
 he (ayes, Out of all doubt puffed over to bis Succefiors • Nay, 
 thafs not out of all doubt neither. Firft, becaufe ma- 
 ny Learned men have challenged many Popes for 
 teachmgHcrefyjand thafs againfl: the trucFaith.And 
 that winch fo many Learned Men have affirmed , is 
 not out of all doubt. Or if it be, why does IBellarmine 
 take fo much paines to confute and difproove them, 
 as t he doth. Secondly, becaufe Chrift obtained of his 
 Father every thing that he prayed for, if he prayed for 
 it abfolutely,and not under a ConditionrFaffcer I hurt* 
 thou hearefi me dwayes S. John H. Now Chrift here pray- 
 ed abfolutely for S. Peter • Therefore whatfoever he 
 asked for him was granted.Therfore if Chrift intend- 
 ed his Succefiors as well as himfelfe , his Prayer was 
 granted for his Succefiors as well as for bimjelfe. But 
 then, if Bellarmine will tell us abfolutely, as he doth , 
 * That the T thole Gift obtained ly this Prayer for S. Peter 
 did belong to his Succefiors • and then by and by after 
 breake this Gift into two parts , and call the firft part 
 into doubt, whether it belongs to his Succefiors or no , 
 he cannot fay the feeond part is out of all doubt. For 
 it there be rcafon of doubting theone^beresas much 
 rcafon of doubting the other, finrethey ftand both 
 on the fame foot, the TJJtdity tf Chrift s Prayer for 
 Saint Peter. 
 
 Ycfa^but Chrifi ehar^m and ferde 
 
 hk 
 
 N u M.17. 
 
t 
 
 
 §.25. Ipl 
 
 l 
 
 bff'frhole flocke. S.lobn. 21. Nay fofc.Tis but bis Sheepe S.lohnai.i 
 and his Lambes-, and that every Apoftle, and every Apo- 
 ftles Succeffor hath charge to doe. * S. Mattb. 28. But * Mat. 2 8 . 19 & 
 over the whole Flocke 1 find no one Apofile or Succef- S - Mac * 10. 17. 
 for let. And ’tis a poore lhifttofay,as A C doth,T bat e^anddu^Hs 
 the Tift op ofT^ome is fet over the whole Flocke , becauf t both given to them aL 
 over Lambes,and Sheep, F or in every flock that is not of ^‘ 5 
 barren Weathers, there are Lam / j and Sheepe, that is, 
 tweaker and Wronger Chriftians ; 
 
 not Teople and Tailors, Subi e fts and t And this fomes to me to allude to due 
 „ r * r ' i • ofS./W,I Corinth 3. 2. and 5.1 2.' 
 
 (jOVei UOUrS, as ^ 4 . expouncis It to fed with milk?, attd feme with 
 
 bring the Necks of Princes under ftrongermeat. TheLambes with milke, 
 
 T{r>nLMe bride And xl Kings bee J iere ^ lollowes Pope Hildebrand 
 meant, yet then the command is dole, who in die Cafe of the Emperor 
 
 fafeefi ced thcm ; Buc Veponere, or Oc- t i' e % a ^ ed , tl "V Queft p 1 ° n; 
 
 * v j ^ >. r 3 [tus Eccleftamfuam Petro commipt , 
 
 Ctdere , to depofe, or kill them ; is not dixit ^afee Chves meas y excepitne Regee ? 
 
 { Pafcere in any fenfe • L<mii id eft non PJatf * 7. And certainly Ktngt 
 
 Taft oris, thats the Butchers, not the Church: But from being fpoy led of their 
 Shepheards part. If a Sheep go aftray Kingdomes by any churdwnen, thae 
 
 never fo far, kis not the Shepheards * iey are * 
 
 part, to kill him • at leaft if he doe } nonpafcit^dum occidit , 
 
 hedoth notcertainly feede,while he killcs. 
 
 And for the Clokftbat the TiftepofTpme ft? aline - Kum. ig. 
 ever ref u fe to feed and goyerne the whole flock in fuch fort, as 
 that neither particular 'Sian, nor Qhurch f hall have ju ft Caufe 
 under p etence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make 
 
 * Separation from the Trbole Church . By A.C s. favour, this 
 is meere begging of the Qucftion. He fayes, the Tope 
 fhallever governe the Whole Church , fo as that there 
 (hall be no juft Caufe given of a Separation. And that 
 is the very Thing, which the Troteftants charge upon 
 him • Namely that he hath governed, if noithe Whole^ 
 yet fo much of the Church as he hath beenc able to 
 bring under his Power, fo as that he hath given too 
 juft Caufe of the prefent continued feparatioii. And 
 
 as 
 
ipz §. U>. 
 
 as the Corruptions in the Dodrine of Faith , in the 
 Church of Rome were the Caufe of the fir ft Separation; fo 
 are they at this prefent day the Caufe why the feparar 
 tion continues. And further, I for my parnam cleare of 
 Opinion 5 that the Errours in the DoPlrine ©f Faith 9 
 which arc charged upon the whole Church , at lead fo 
 much of the whole, as in thefe parts of Europe hath 
 beetle kept under the Romans Iur if diE ion y have had 
 their Originall and Continuance from this , that fo much 
 \ ot the VniVcrfall Church ( which indeed they account 
 Ad) hath forgotten her owns Liberty, and iubmitted 
 to the Roman e Church and !Bi(hop; and fois in a man- 
 ner forced to embrace all the Cc'rruptms y which the 
 ^Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon it felf. 
 And being now not able to free her felfe from the 
 Romane hrifdiftion , is made to continue alfo in all 
 her Qorruptms. And for the RroteUants, they have 
 made no Reparation [tom the Generali Church properly 
 S> f° calledffor therein A. C. faid well, the Ropes Aiming 
 ftration can give no Caufe tofeparate from that) but 
 their Separation is only from the Church ojRome, and 
 fuch other (lurches, as by adhering to her, have haz- 
 arded thcmfelves, and do now mifcall themfeives, the 
 W!)ole Catholike Church. Nay even here the R rot ell ants 
 have not left the Church of Rome in her EJJence , but in 
 her Errours $ not in the Things which Cmftitute a 
 Church y but only in fuch Ahufes and (Corruptions t as 
 work toward the Dijjolution of a Church. 
 
 R lalfo asked , who ought to judge in this Cafe ? The 
 
 B faid a Generali (jouncell. 
 
 B- And furely, What greater or furer Judgement 
 Num. x. youcanhave, wherefenicof Scripture is doubted,, 
 then a Generali Councell} I doe not fee : Nor doe you 
 
 doubt 
 
§.i6. * 9 ? 
 
 doubt. And A. Q grants it to be a moft Com - A.c.p$j>i 
 petcnt Iudge of all ControVerfies of Faith , Jo that all 
 Pallors be gathered together , and in the Name of Cbrift, 
 mid {ray unanimoufly for the promifed affi fiance of the 
 Holy Ghofl 5 and make great and diligent fearch and ex- 
 amination of the Scriptures, and other Grounds of Faith , 
 
 And then Decree what is to lee held for Divine Truth . 
 
 For then ( faith he) ’tis Firme y and Infallible, or els there 
 is nothing firm upon earth . As faire as this PaflSge 
 feems, and as freely as I have granted 5 that a Ge- 
 nerali Councell is the beft Judge on earth 3 where the 
 fenfe of Scripture is doubted-^ yet even in this paflage there 
 are fome things'Conflderable. Af firft, when (hall the 
 Church hope for fuch a Generali Councelf in which al 1 
 Paflors (hall be gachered together ? there was neve, 4 
 any iuch Generali Councell yet , nor doe I believe hi h 
 can be had. So that > fuppofed in vainei „ , . , • h 
 
 and you might have learn d this of *bel- (onci i iH p e n er <de^m etUm 
 larmi'iewi you will not believe me. Next videeur aiincefs futurtm&za i. 
 
 (faith he ) If all theje P aft or s pray unani- deC ° 
 
 monfly for the promifed A [ft fiance of the Holy Ghoft . 
 
 Why, but if all Paflors cannot meet together,al) can- 
 not pray together, nor all fearch the Scriptures to- 
 gether , nor all upon that Search Decree toge- 
 ther. So that is fuppofed in vaine too Yea but 
 Thirdly, If all that meet doe way unanimoufly. What 
 then 2 AM that meet are nc t fimply All. Not doth 
 the Holy Ghoft come , and give his A fit fiance up- 
 on every Prayer, that is made unanimoufly , though 
 by very many Prelates or other Faith full People 
 met together 3 unleffe all other P^equifites as well 
 as ,Vnanimity 5 to make their prayer to bee heard 
 and granted , bee obferved by them s So that an 
 Vnanimous Prayer is not adequately fuppofed , and 
 therefore Concludes not. But laftly ho w far a Generali 
 
 C c Corned 
 
§. % 6 , 
 
 * 9 * 
 
 1 §.J3.CmJid.u , 
 
 * And this was thought & fufficierit Tudge too , when Chriftiaas 
 were as humble as learned. I am lure Optatus thought lo. ffua- 
 rendifunt Indices. Si (hriftiani de utraque parte dart. non pof- 
 funt 3 quia ftudiis veritas impeditur 3 He for is quarendus eft In- 
 dex. Si Paganus , non poteft nofse Christiana Stcreta. Si luJ<£- 
 usfnimn us eft Chrifliani Baptifmatis . Ergo in tetris de hoc re 
 nullum poterit reperiri Iudiciu.De Calo quxrendus ejl Index , Sed 
 ut quid pulfamus ad Coelum, quum habemus hie in Evangelio ? 
 T eft ament um inquam, quia hoc loco rccie pojfunt terrtna coele - 
 flibus comparari ) taleesl 9 quod quivis hominum habens numcro - 
 fos filios, his quamdiu pater prafens eftjpfe imverat fingttlisyion eji 
 adhuc necejfarium Teflam ntu.Sic grf hr<fius 3 quamdin prafens in 
 terris fuit fquamvis nec modo deft ) pro tempore quicquid ncceffa- 
 rium crat 3 Apoflolis Impcravit. Sed quomodo terrenus 'Pater dum 
 jc in confnio (infer it mortis , timens ne pofi mortem guam , ru~ 
 ptd pace littgent fratres , adhibitis I ef t bus Voluntatcm fuam 
 de Peclore moritufo , transfrt in T abtdas din durnturas it f 
 fuerit inter fratres contentio nata } non itur ad ‘Tumulum fed quart- 
 tur IT eft ament u* 3 fr qui Turn-In quiefeit, tacitus atTabulu loquL 
 tiir.Viz us , cujus ef Tcfiamentu 3 w calo ef.Srgo / oluntas ejus y ve- 
 lut in Tefiamento.fc in Evangelio irquirat wr.Opt,/. j.adv Farm. 
 
 This pregnant P lace of OptatusfThat the Scsipture u the Judge 
 ef Divine Truth,w>hsn ever it is quefioned, ) chough Baldwin dare 
 notdcnv, yethewouli tame Hide both by it, and by a paralell 
 place as full in S. Aug. in Tfal 2 1 , Expofitione 2 '.with this (hi ft 
 thar S. Afiguftine in another place had rather uie the Teiumony 
 of T adition , that is the Te'hmony Nuncupativi potius quam 
 Scripti Teft&mentiy of the Nuncupative , rather then the Written 
 Will of Chrif Baldwin \n Optat.L . 1 ) . But this is a meere ihitt. 
 Firl^becruleitis Vctitio principii the meere begging of the Que- 
 ilton. For we deny any L eitamentof Chrilt, but that which is 
 written. And <*sl. C. cannot ihew it in any one Father ot the 
 Church, that Cin ill ever left behind him a Nuncupative obligato • 
 ry Will . Secondly, bccaule nothing is more plaine mthelctwo 
 Fathers Optatus and S. eHugufiine , then that both ot them ap- 
 peale to the Wrrtten W ill , and make that the Judge without any 
 Exception, when a matter of Faith comes in Queition. \wOptat. 
 the words are H abemu) in Evangelio , we have it in the Golpell. 
 Andin Evangelio inquiratur , Let it be inquired in the Gofpell : 
 And Chrilt put iti» tabufas dtu duraturas into W riccen and hid- 
 ing I nlhumtnts.In S <tAuguttine the words are : Our Father 
 diet not dye inte[tate- 3 &c. And T dbula aperiantur ,Let his W ill, his 
 wii ten Inftruments be opened. And Legantur Verba mortui let 
 the words of him that dyed, be rea 1 . And againe <'s 4 teriyLegamus 3 
 Open the Will and letus redde, And Legamus.qmalitigamusl 
 Why do welfnve. ? Let*s read the W 7 lll. And againe, AperiTefa - 
 mentumjege Open the W ill,read. All which Paihgev are mold 
 exprefle and full for his Written W ill, and not for any Nuncupa - 
 five Wil,as Baldwin would put upon us. And Hart who takes the 
 fame way wirh Baldwin is notable 'o make it out, as appeares by. 
 D . Reynolds in his Conference with Hart.c, 8 . divifi, p.396. &e. 
 
 Ceuncelf if all A.C S . 
 Conditions bee ob- 
 ferved,is firm, and 
 Infallible y that (hall 
 be more fully difc 
 cuffed at tafter. In 
 the re cane time , 
 thefe two words 
 Ftr me, and Infalli- 
 ble are ill put to- 
 gether as Synoni- 
 mi j.For there are 
 fome things molt 
 Infallible in them- 
 felves^ whichyet 
 cou d never get 
 to be made/? me 
 among men. And 
 there are many 
 things made firm 
 by L<w y bo chin 
 Cburdes Sc Bfmg- 
 domes , whichyet 
 are rot Infallible 
 in rhimfclves. So 
 to draw ail toge- 
 therj ro fettle C6- 
 troverfies in the 
 Churdv,thcreisa 
 Vifible ludge and 
 Infallible y but not 
 living. And that 
 is the * Scripture 
 pronouncing by 
 the Church. And 
 there 
 
there is a Vifible and 
 a Living Judge y but 
 not Infallible ; And that 
 is a Generali Councell y 
 lawfully called, and 
 lo proceeding. But! 
 know no (ormall Con- 
 firmation of it needfull 
 ( though A . C. require 
 it, * but onely that 
 after it is ended 3 the 
 Whole Church admit 
 it 5 bee it never fo ta- 
 citely. 
 
 * § .2 8. AT. I. And to plainly S .Auguftine (peaking of S ,(j~ 
 prians Errour about Rebaptization &c. fayes. Ittis tern- 
 for thus antequam P Unarii C onctlii fententia quid in hac 
 re feqnendum ejfet,t at ius Ecclcjia Confenfio con firm jffet > 
 'Uifumcficicum &c. L.ide Bapt. cont .*2) onatijt . c . 18. 
 So, here is firft Senttntia C onctlii: And then the Confirma- 
 tion of it is totius Ecclefut Confenfio , the Confent of the 
 whole Church yeelding unto it. And fo Cjerjcn, Concur- 
 rence Vniverfali totius Ecclefut’confenfu . , Crc. In Declare 
 done 'Ueritatum qua credend <e funt,(£rc t §. 4. For this, that 
 the Pope mufi confirme it , or el(e the Generali Councell 
 is invalids s one of the Rom an c Novelties. For this cannot 
 be (hewed in any Antiquity void of juft Exception. The 
 truth is, the Pope as other Patriarchs and great Biftiops 
 uled to doe, did give his aflent to fuch Counccls as lie ap- 
 prooved. But that is no Corroboration of the Councell, as 
 if it were invalid without it : but a Declaration of his 
 co nfenting with the reft. § . 3 2 . £ onfid. 4. Nu. 6 . 
 
 In the next Place, A. C. interpofes new matter Hum, 2 . 
 quite out of the Conference . And firft in cafe of Dr- .c.p.^Jo. 
 Jlra£lions y and Vifunion in the Church 3 he Irould know , 
 what is to be done to fy-unite, when a Generali Councell 
 ( which is acknowledged a fit Iudge ) cannot be had 
 by reajon of manifold impediments : Or if being call- 
 ed , will 7iot bee of one minde ? Hath (fhrijl our Lord 
 ( faith hee ) in this Cafe provided no Rule , no Iudge 
 Infallibly to determine ControVerftes , and to procure 
 Vnitie , and Certainty of Belie fe ? Indeed the B r ole- 
 fiant s admit no Inf allible Meanes , Rule , or Iudge , but 
 onely Scripture , which every man may interpret , as hee 
 pleafes , and fo all (hall bee uncertaine> Truly 3 1 mufi 
 confefle , there are many Impediments to hinder 
 the Calling of a Generali Councell. You know in 
 the Auncient Church 
 
 there wast hin dera nee f Chrijiianitas in diverfas ELtrefes f :iffa eft, quia non erat 
 
 licentia Epifcopis in ununt convenire^ perfecutione f&viente 
 ttfque ad tempora Conjlantini $*f.Ifidor .frafat. in ConciL 
 Edit. Vcnctiis . 15 8 y. 
 
 afterward though it 
 
 were long firft there was proviflon made 
 
 “ ^ Cci for 
 
 enough 3 and what 
 hurt it wrought. And 
 

 $. 2,6. 
 
 for t frequent calling of 
 c«rifi«w* cehWm °4 P r *• Councils ,and yet no Age 
 
 cipua cnltura Ajrn r Domimci. Crc . ht tlioritm negle* J J d 
 
 tins , Errores, Harefes, & Schifmata difeminat. Hap linCC 13 W them C3llcd 
 
 pr&teritorum temporum recordatio & pr .tfentium conji * ^ccordill 0- CO that PlO- 
 deratio ante oculos nofir os ponnnt. Itaque fancimis^ut . ^ . ° ^ . 
 
 amodb Concilia Cjener alia celebrentur ; it a ejmdPrimum VlllOfl 111 CVCty V^llCUni'* 
 
 dfinehujus Concilii in quin juennium immediate fequens y fj^nCe j therefore Ittlbg- 
 Secundum verb a fine Wins in (eptenmum, & deinceps de , . t * 
 
 decennio in decennittm perpetuo celebrentur &c~ Concil. dVtlCiltS tiier^ Were e- 
 
 Conlhn. Sejf. 39. Et apudGetlon.Tom.i.p. 230. Et enough ? or dk fome de- 
 Pet. de Aliaco Card Cam:racenfis lib e Hum obtnlit in i- 1 .f m T -li? 1 
 Coned. Conji ant . de Information Ecclefia contra Opini- cll£leci them Wllfdijy , 
 onem comm qni pntarunt Concilia G ensr alia minus ne- tilQUgh there Were HO 
 
 cefartaefe, quia Omnia bene a Pitt io.is ri^dns ordinata Jjqq^pedimentS ^^!or Will 
 fnnt. &c. In fafcic. T{jriim expetendarnm. fol . 2S. St Jl , . 
 
 Schifmatibus debet Ecclefia cit'o per Concilia Genera- I deny 3 Dll’, that when 
 lia providers , ut in Vrimitiva Ecclefia docuerunt Apo- they Were Called, there 
 
 floH.vt JP 1 . 6 . & Acl.v, lb.J/»/. 204.^. were as many * PraEli- 
 
 * In Concil. tstfriminenfi malt is pancorumfraude decef- CCS tO dlflurhe OI perVirt 
 tis &c. S . Aug. L. 3 . «*. Maximinumc. 14. ^ Qowicels. And thefc 
 
 PraElices were able to keepe many Counsels from being 
 all of one minde. But if being called, they will not be 
 of one minde, I cannot helpe that j Though that 
 very not agreeing is a fhrewd figne y that the other 
 Spirit hath a partie there againfl: the Holy Gh&ft. 
 
 Now A C. would know, what is to be done for 
 ( l\e uniting of a Qmxh divided in VoBrine of the 
 Faith , when this Remedy by a Generali Councell cai> 
 not be had -Sure Cbrijl our Lord (faith he ) bath provid- 
 ed fame Rjile,JomeIudge in fucb and fuch like Cafes to pro-* 
 cure unity and certainty ofheliefe.l believe fo too • for he 
 hath left an Infallible L(ule the Scripture. And tbatby 
 the manifeft Places in it (which need no Djfpute, no 
 
 Extern all Iudg) is a able 
 
 * 2 (en per difficiles nos Bern ad Beat am vitam Guagi- fettle and 
 
 ones vocat, &c. In abfoluto nobis & faeili eft aternitas ; taiYlty 01 [Belief e in 
 Iejum fufeitatum a mortuitper Heim Credere, & Ipfum jq Saltation * 
 
 effc Domimm confiteri. &c. S. Hihr. L.io. deTrin. ad A . . ^ .. 5 
 
 fam. And in Pton necejjarus , 
 
 in and about things* 
 
 not 
 
 N u m. 3 . 
 
§.26. 
 
 1 97 
 
 not necefme , there 
 ought not to bee a 
 Contention to a a Se- 
 
 * Tlypru\nm & College ipFtus credentes H arctic os & 
 SchifmaticosRapttfmum non habere, fine Taptifma rece- 
 pHs, &c. its tamen commumcare quam feparari ab Visit si- 
 te maluerunt. S. Aug Z.a. de Raptif, cont. r Donatijl,c> 6 0 
 
 . • Et hi non contarmnabant Cyprian urn, lb id, fine, 
 
 ydr HllOflm 
 
 And therefore *y4. C. does not well, to make that Num, 4 , 
 a Crime, that the ftro- 
 
 t eft ants admit no Infal- h %*cenf*it cunUa fanttis Script uris con fond. Eufcb. Z. 
 
 lible 0 {ule, but the Scrip- \ffif TfcffJfdff p„„hm a g m„,. Tert. * 
 ture onely • Or as he (I Monogam c . 2. And this is true, though the Auchour 
 
 doubt "not without !f^J t,w ‘“ ntew ” VP ,eJ - 
 
 Ipjai Scnpt tir as appnme tenens, S* Hieron, ad Marcel- 
 fome korne ) termes it, lum adverfus Montanum. To. 2. Hoc quia de Scriptures 
 
 bcflde OHely Scripture non habet author it at emydtiem facilitate contemnitur, qua 
 
 - . *. ' probatur. S . Hieron.** S.Matth, 23. 
 
 For what need is there Manifefius cfi fidci lap fus, & liquidum fuperbUvitium , 
 
 velrefpuere altquideorum qua Scriptura habet^ vel indu- 
 cer e quicquam quod [trip turn non eft, S, Bafil* Serm . dc 
 Tide. To. 2^.1^. Edit. Rafilea. 1565. 
 
 Contra inf urgentes Hsrefes fiepe pugnavi Agr aphis, ve- 
 rum non alicnii d pid Jecmdum Script ter am fententid. 
 Ibid. 
 
 And before Bafil, Tertul. Adoro Scriptura plcnitudinem 9 
 (Src. ft non esl fcriptum t time at Hertnogenes , V & illud adji - 
 cientibus vel detrahentibus defiinatum, TertuJ. adverf* 
 Hermcg.c.22. 
 
 And Paulinus plainely cals it Regulam DireWtonisl 
 Epi ft. 2 3. 
 
 De hkc Regula tria obfervanda funt. 1. Regula eft, fed 
 a tempore quo feripta. 2. Regula eft, fed per Ecclefiam 
 applicanda , non per privatum Spirit urn. 3 . T^egula 
 eft } & menfurat omnia qua continet : continet autem om- 
 G enter aU Cowicell nianeceffaria ad falutem vel mediate vel immediate. Et 
 1 11 » 1 • hoc tertium habet Biel, in 3. CD. 25. q.unicd. Conclttf, 
 
 may Dee il ad . i*na It And t\\\s\s9illwc(ay.Hook^L.').£cclef. < I , ol.§.22, 
 
 hath both the Conditi- c Regula C athclica fidci debet ejfe cctta & nora. Si certa 
 OTK whi rh e ft Alarm hi p non non ent Rc £ ula - si nota non fi*> non *”* Regula 
 
 ons wmen neuanmme mh ^ Bellar.z.i.^r^^.c. 2. §. 5. Sednihilefb 
 requires to a Ffule. vel certius vel notius facrh Scriptura. Bellar .ibtd.§,6, 
 "Namplv rhnr ir Hp Cpv Therefore the Holy Scripture is the Rule of Catholike 
 . y* , * Faith, both in it felf'e, and to us alio ; For in things lim- 
 
 tdtne , and that it bee plv Neccifary to Salvation, it is abundantly knowne and 
 
 £\jiowne • For if it bee man ifefh as §.16. Nu.$, 
 
 not certame 7 it is no %ule^and if it be not knoSbne , ’tisno 
 
 (Rule to us. Now the , . „ . „ , 
 
 A CD ‘/l J * Convent t inter nos & omnes emmno nayeticos, Verbum 
 
 - V(omMlljfS dare not Dei ejje Regulam fidci , ex qua dc Dogmatibus judical 
 
 C c 3 deny 3 
 
 of another, fince this is 
 mo ([ Infallible and the 
 lame which the b Anci- 
 ent f hunch of Chrift 
 admitted. And if it 
 were fufficicnt for the 
 Ancient Church to guide 
 them, and dire<5t their 
 (founctls, why fhould it 
 be now held ineffici- 
 ent for us, at leaft, till a 
 free 
 
Hum. 5. 
 
 ludg.tf. 
 
 dm ft. Bellarm :Pr*fat. To. i.firte . And although deny, but this tf{ule is 
 
 there perhaps he includes Traditions, yet that was never 0 n J rVi'j* 
 
 proved yet. Neither indeed can he include Traditions. C et tatne > anC * ls 
 
 For he fpeakes of that Word of GoJ,upon which all He- fufBcicntly t\H0Wne in 
 
 rccicks confent : But concerning Traditions, they all 1 manifefi Places nf 
 conUntnot: That they are a Rule of Faith. Therefore mC mani f e J T ™C6S M 
 he fpeakes not of them. It, and iuch <tS are 
 
 neceffarie to Salvation } 
 none of the Ancients did ever deny ; fo there’s an In- 
 fallible T{ule. 
 
 Nor need there be fuch feare of a Private Spirit in 
 thefe manifefi things, which being but read, or heard 
 teach themlehes. Indeed you ^manifis had need 
 of fome other Iudge , and he a propitious one, to 
 crufih the Popes more power full ' Principality out of 
 Pa/ce oVcs, feed my fheepe. And yet this muft be the 
 meaning (if you will have it) whether Gideons fleece 
 bee wet, or dry fiudgs6. that is, whether there bedew 
 enough in the Text, to water that fenfe or no. But I 
 pray, when God hath left his Church this Infallible 
 \ 3(ule , what warrant have you to leeke another ? You 
 have fhewed us none yet , what e’rc you thinke you 
 have. And l hope A.C. cannot thinke, it followes, 
 that Chrift our Lord hath provided no %ile to deter* 
 mine necefiary Controverfies , becaufe hec hath not 
 provided th t^uleftobichhe Vtould have. 
 
 Befides, let there be luch a living Iudge, as A . C. 
 * For fo he af- would have, and let the %( Fope be he, yet that is not 
 firmes.p.5 8. fufficient againft the malice o: the Vivell , and impious 
 men , to keepe the Church at all Times from Renting , 
 even in the DoBrine of Faith j or to loder the (2 \ents 
 which are made. For Oportet efji Hdtrejes , uQrr.w. He- 
 re fies there will be, and Here fits properly there cannot 
 be^but in VoBrine of the Faith. And what, will j(. C. 
 in this Cale dorWillhe fend Chrifi our Lord to provide 
 another T{ule then the Decifion of th dBifbop of (Ifome, 
 becaufe he can neither make ^Vnity , nor Certainty of 
 
 N u 
 
 S.Cor. n. ip. 
 

 1$P 
 
 < Beliefe . And (as ’tis mofl apparent) he cannot doe it 
 de fafto- f fo neither hath he po~xer from Chrift over 
 the Whole Church to doe it, nay out of all doubt, 
 'tisnottheleaft reafon, why de fatto he hath fo little 
 lucceiTc, becaufe de lure he hath no power given. But 
 fince A. T. requires another Judge befides the Scripture, 
 and in Cafes, when either the time is fo difficult, that 
 a Generali Councell cannot be called • or the Councell 
 fo let, that they will not agree ; Let's fee, how hg 
 proves it. 
 
 . Tis thus • every earthly kingdome (faith he) when ^m. 7* 
 matters cannot be compofed by aTariiament (which can- '* " r C " 
 not be called upon all Occafions , why doth he not adde 
 here, And which being called, will notalvvaies be of 
 oneminde, as he did adde it in Cafe of the Councell) 
 hat by befides the Law ‘Hookes, fome living SHagifl rates 
 and Judges y and above all , one vifible King , the Higbefl 
 Judge, who bath Authority fufficient to end all i ontrover - 
 fies, and fettle Hdn ty in all 1 smporal l Affaires ^And /ball 
 We tbi ke that Chrift the wife ft King hah provided in his 
 kingdome the Church onely the Law bookes of the Holy 
 Scripture , and no living vifible Judges, and above a 1 / one 
 Chiefe , fo aft i fled by bis Spirit, as may fuffice to end all 
 Qontr over fits for Vnity and Certainty of Faith ; which 
 can * ever be, if every man may interpret Holy Scripture, 
 the La wSB ekes, as he lift l This is a 
 
 very plaufible Argument with the j£ 
 
 Many. But the foundation of it is rumue fallunt , fed rebus ipfts fat afar, 
 but a t Similitude , and if the Simi- 
 
 litude hold not in the maitre, the ly, that this is a Fallacy, unlefle it be ta- 
 Areumenfs nothing- And fo I ^en reduplicative. 1. e. de ftmlifw qua 
 
 doubt, ltwillproove here, lie 2.Top.Loc.pJ, iyes, WA IV C 7 J 1 CfJ.Ol- 
 obferve Particulars, as they lie in Xurfumw Similiftts, 
 
 1 * (t Jimuittr fe h avert. 
 
 order. 
 
 And foil, he will have the whole Militant Church Nun, $» 
 
 (for 
 
 N 
 
zoo 
 
 §. 16. 
 
 ( for of that we fpeake) a Khigdome. Put this is not 
 certaine- For they are no meant ones, which thinkc 
 our Saviour Chrifl left the Church Militant in the 
 Hands of the Vlpoftles } and their Succefiours , in an 
 AriftocraticaU , or rather a JMixt Government, and 
 
 that the Church is not * Monarchic 
 c^//otherwi(e then the Triumphant 
 and i 'Militant make one Body un- 
 der thrift the Head And in this 
 fenfe indeed, and in this onely, the 
 (lurch is a moil ablolute King- 
 dome. And the very Exprefling of 
 this fenfe is a full Anfwer to all die 
 Places of Scripture, and other Ar- 
 guments brought by b BeUarmine , to 
 prove that the Church is a dMonar* 
 
 flops Movafch}" chie - Buc Church being as large 
 
 the lame Meric, or o the fame Degree in tS the World , Chrifl thought it fitter 
 
 to governe it drift ocratic ally , by Di- 
 Ver/e^ rather then by One Vice Roy. 
 And] believe this is true, for all 
 the time of the fiifl three hundred 
 'tiiones pottos pro Epikopo,^ Epitco- yeares and fomewhat better _ it 
 
 pacu, nihil hoc ad rem jOCit. Iia, C aiaun. , . n . n .A 
 
 aa Amahs Sccief.Ba- - was governed Ariftocraticaliy , if we 
 
 will impai dally confider, howthe 
 Bifbops of thofe times, carried the 
 whole Bulinefle of admitting any 
 new confecrated Bifhops or others to, 
 or rcje&ing them from their Communion . For I have 
 carefully Examined this for the firfl fixe hundred 
 yeares, even to, and within the time of S Cjregory the 
 « 5, Greg. L.g- great. c Who in the beginning of the [event h hundred 
 Epif.it ycarc fent fuch Letters to Augustine then J^rchbifhop of 
 d s. Greg L. 9 . Canterburie, and to d Gjufirinw, and other Bijhops in lre- 
 E fid. 6 1, land-, And I findc 3 1 hac the Liters Commimicatoricc 
 
 which 
 
 a When Gerfon writ his Tra£f De Aufe - 
 ribilitate Papa, fure hee thought the 
 Church might continue in a very good 
 B ing, without a cJMon archie all Head % 
 Therefore, in Jus judgement, the Church 
 is not by any Command or Inlfitution 
 of Chrili, Monarchical!. (7er/<w. par. i. 
 
 HT- 1 54- 
 
 When S. Hierom. wrote thus: ( Vbi* 
 cunqv.e f tier it Epifcepus , five five 
 
 Eugubii, five Conflantinopoli , five Rhe- 
 git, five Alexandria, five Earns ; ejuf- 
 dent merits , ejufdem efi dr Sacerdotti. 
 S. Hieron. Epift. ad Evagritm ) doubt- 
 lefl'e iie thought not oi the Romane Bi 
 
 7 ^ 
 
 the Pnelthood with the Pope, as things 
 are now carried at Rome ? Affirmamiis 
 etiam , Patribus dr Grtecis & Latinis, 
 ivnotas ejfe voces de Petro ant Papa Mo- 
 narchal Monarchia. Nam quod in fu • 
 perionbus obfervabamus reperin eas di 
 PH or 
 pacu 
 
 Exerci tat tore l 
 m*. §.127.378 ^§.ii p 360. dijer- 
 t'e afierit d prebat Ecciefia Regimen 
 Arthoiraucum futffe. 
 
 fc BelUr. /».!. de Concil c. 1 6. §.l, 2, 
 
§.Z 6 . 202 
 
 which certified from one Great r Patriarch to another, 
 who were fit or unfit to be admitted to their Qommu- 
 nion, if they upon any Occafioarepaired to their Seas, 
 were fent mutually. And as freely, and in the lame 
 manner from Pp me to the other Patriarchs, as from 
 them to it. Out of which, l thinke, this will follow 
 moft diredy, That the Church-Government then Was jfrU 
 ftocraticaO. I or had the Bi/hop of Pome been then ac- 
 counted Sole Monarch of the Church, and beene put in- a 
 to the Definition of the Church (as he is now by 3 Bel- 
 larmine) all thcfe Communicatorie Letters fliould have Noftraautem. 
 beene directed irom him to the reft 5 as whole admit- 
 tance oughc to be a Rule for all to Communicate- but 
 not from others to him , or at leaft not in that even, 
 squall, and Brotherly way, as now they appeare to be 
 written. For it is noway probable, that the Strops 
 of pome, which even then fought their owne Great- 
 ncfle too much, would have fubmitted to the other 
 Patriarchs voluntarily, had not the very Courleof the 
 Church put it upon them. 
 
 Befides, this is a great and undoubted Rule, gi- N u m . g, 
 ven by b Optatus , That wherefoever there is a h f° neni * 
 Church, there the Church is in the Common wealth , ^cUfaftdEcdk- 
 not the Common wealth in the Qmrcb. And Jo aljo the f^inRepnUkd: 
 Church Was in the Ppmane Empire. Now from this l R 0 mZo! 
 Ground 1 argue thus : If the Church be within the £.3. 
 f mpircor other Kingdome, as impoftible the Go- 
 vernment of the Church flhould be Monarchical. For 
 no Emperour or Kjng\ /ill indure another King with- 
 in his Dominion that fhall bee greater then him- 
 iclfc, fince the very induring it, makes him thatin- 
 durcs it, upon the matter, no Monarch. Nor will it di- 
 fturbe this Argument : That two Great Kjngs in 
 France and Spaine permit this. For he that is not 
 blinde, may fee, if hee will, of what little value 
 
 Dd * the 
 
202 . 
 
 §. id. 
 
 a Cone. Antioch, 
 
 c. 9 '?' 5 ° 7 . 
 b Conc.Nic.i, c. 
 5. c£ Antioch, 
 c, 12, 
 
 c £W. Nie,u c, 
 4. Antioch, 
 can. 9. 
 
 d Cone, ntioch, 
 c. 14. 
 
 e Sed prtponitur 
 Scriptura.S.Au- 
 guft. L. 2. de 
 ‘Bapt.cont, ‘Do- 
 nate. 3. 
 
 f iV^»2 cum St a- 
 t ut urn tit omni - 
 iw nobis ) &c.& 
 finguiis l J aft or i- 
 bus portio gre- 
 gis d'c.S.Cypr. 
 
 L,\.Bp 3 . 
 
 £ Bellar. L. l de 
 RoJF«nt,e ,8 c£* 
 X. 2. ^ Condi, 
 c. 1 6. 
 
 h Bellar. L , 1. de 
 %o.Pont.crj, 
 
 the Topes power is in thofe Kjngdomes 9 farther 
 then to ierve their owne turnes of Him , which 
 They do to their great advantage. Nay farther , 
 the jincient Canons and Fathers of the Church feem 
 to me plaine for this : For the a Corniced of Anti- 
 och fob m its Ecclefiafticall Caufes to the Bijbops . 
 And what was done amilTe by a Biftop , was cor- 
 rigible by a b Synod of ' Bijbops 5 but this with the 
 c Metropolitan. And in Cafe thefe did not agree, 
 the d Metropolitans might call in other Bifhops out 
 of the neighbouring Provinces . And if Things fSt- 
 led not this way , a Generali Councell ( e under the 
 Scripture , and dire&ed by it) was the Higheft Re- 
 medy. And r S. Cyprian even to Pope Cornelius him- 
 felfe fayes plainely : That to every Bijhop is aferibed 
 a portion of the flocke for him to governs, . And fo not 
 all committed to One. In all this the Government 
 of the Church ftemes plainely AriHocraticalL And 
 if all other Arguments faile, wee have one left 
 from $ diamine , who oppofes it as much as any, 
 § twice for failing. And yet , where hec goes to 
 Exclude Secular Trinces from Church-Governe- 
 h all his Quotations , and all his Troofes run 
 
 ment 
 
 upon this Head , to fhew , That the Governement 
 of the fhurch was ever in the IBt/hops. What fayes 
 *A.Cy. <54,65. j 4 t C, now to the Confeffion of this great Adver- 
 farie, and in this great Point, extorted from him 
 by force of Truth? Now if this bee true, then 
 the whole foundation of this Argument is gone. 
 The Qmrch Militant is no Kyngdome . and therefore 
 not to be Compared , or ludged by One . The Rc- 
 femblance will not hold. 
 
 Next, fuppofeit a J^ingdome: yet the Church Mili- 
 tant remaining one, is fpread in many Earthly 
 Kjngdomes . and cannot well. bee ordered like any 
 
 one 
 
 Num.io. 
 
it folio wes nor, That 
 
 in the Vnhxrfall Mili- 
 tant Church there mu ft 
 be one Supreme. For 
 how will he enter to 
 
 §. 16 . 20 1 
 
 * , ’ ' jm 
 
 One particular 3 Kill 1 ?- * Licet [it Expedient qu'od mi Papule partiali fidcti pra- 
 t . , f ^ fit units Epifioptts ; non expedit tamer* quod toti popuic 
 ClOfUe. /\nu tneieiOie, fideli prce Jit unus fohts , Turn quid omnia Negoia twins 
 though in one parti- popali partialis poteA Jufiinerc vn/u Joins ; A 7 stilus cm- 
 f Tr • j ^ i tem unm potejl, Juftinere omnia TJggotia etiam major a 
 
 CUiar iMn^aom tneie omnium ChriJHanorum : 'Turn quia nnnm malum eft , tit 
 
 be many Vlflble Judges , poptilw partialis & parvus injiciat V' 10 Spifcopo , 
 
 i o . . qudmut totus , veL fere totus populist C hrifiianus infici- 
 
 and 01 C Upreme . ye aturab uno Capite, quod omnibus pr fit, Oc! ' L. 2. 
 
 ZVo?/, /ra#. T ,jp. 3,c. %o.ad 8, And betides tl v >ckam: 
 To that Common Argument, ThatCMon ill go* 
 vernement is the bejl } therefore two dly that 
 'which Chrifi inftttuted for his (fiburch, jff lent to 
 Anfwer,-That a Monarchy is the belt forme of Govern- 
 mcnt in one City or Countrey, isfrift. L. 8 « C Mo il.c . i o . 
 Butitfollowes not. That it is the heft in rdpeft of the 
 Execute hi sOffce, if Whole world, where the Parts are fo remote, and the Dif- 
 v zp ■ flf portions of men io various. And therefore Bellarm. him- 
 
 the d\l)lgS Oi tnofe lelfe confeflfes : CMonarchiam ssfriftocratia ‘Democrat 
 
 Kmgdomes will not tl<& admixtam tttiliorem ejjfo in hie vita , qttdm (implex 
 give leave ? Monarchia eft. L. \,de Efi. Pont. e. 3. §• I . 
 
 Now here, though A. C. exprefles himfeife no far- Num. ii. 
 ther , yet I well know, what he and his FelloWes 
 would be at. They would not be troubled to aske 
 leave of any fever all Kings in their feverall Domini- 
 ons. No: they would have one Emperour over all the 
 
 KjjlgS , as Well as One b j n t h e firft Glofle aferibed to Ifidore in gen. 1. s Ti$ 
 
 ’Per Solem intelligitur Regnum ; per Lunam 5 SaceY- 
 
 dotium. But Innocent the third , almoft fix hundred 
 
 yeares after Ifidore’’ s death , perverts both Text and 
 
 gioffe. Thus. Ad firmament urn Coeli. i. e. Vniv erf alls 6 c- 
 
 of two great Lghts to ?O m cle ft<z , fecit D eus duo magnet Laminaria, hoc eA f duos in- 
 
 Xtpynp thp world the Sun ftitfiit Pote fi ates ’ Po^tificalem , & Regalem, &c. Vt 
 vetneweim L., tf.e oun quanta inter Solem & Lunam , t ant a inter lontifices & 
 
 and the Moonejhat is the c Reges differentia cognofcatur , EpiftW Imperat. Conflanti- 
 'Pol e and the Emperour, «T li,mHm p e r cr,t ' L - udt **<*>*«* & oicJiemia. 
 At the hat it oegan 
 
 with more moddtv, The Emperour and the Pope. And 
 that was frmewhat Tolerable. For c S. Augu(line tels < Ecclelia Mili^ 
 us, That the Militant Church is often in Scripture called the tansfapeinScri - 
 Mhone, h)th for the many Changes it hath, and for its oh - proper 
 jfeurity in ynany times of its peregrination. And hee {f ^abihtatem, 
 tcls us too. That if we will , underftand this place of EjjPu^ffe, 
 
 V. J 
 
 ‘Tope over all the ©i- 
 I hops . And then you 
 know ’ who told us 
 
 Dd % 
 
 scripture 
 

 §. 16. 
 
 nifi Sol luftitta ? 
 &c. S . Aug. in 
 Pfal. I 03. 
 b Galp. Schiop. 
 L % dillo Ecclefia- 
 fticus,r. 145. 
 
 * inttWgimks Scripture in a Spiritual! Senfe : * Our Saviour Chriftis 
 \ P /e/am!&c E £t the Sun, and the Militant Church , as being full of 
 bio}** eft Sol ; changes in her eftate, the Moone. But now it muft bee 
 
 • ~ ~ » * n * * _ C/ 
 
 a Triumphant Church here 5 Mlitant no longer. The 
 Tope muft be the Sun , and the Emperor but theMxwe, 
 And leaft/wwce»frowne power fhould not be able to 
 make good his Tecretall • b Gafper Schioppius doth not 
 onely avow the Allujlon or Interpretation , but is plea- 
 fed to exprefle many Circumftances, in which hee 
 would faine make the world believe the fefemhlance 
 holds. And left any man fliould not know how 
 
 much the Pope is made 
 
 dr Age ft cs fepties fit major %egali dignitate. GiofiC in De- rOUY by this Gompari- 
 
 cnt.prtMa Where/* the is out in his Lacme. fon . the c Glolfe for- 
 Hec might have laid < guadragies : tor gfuadragefies is % > . , JJ 
 
 no word. < next heisouc in his Arithmetic For eight nilnCS US With thattOOI 
 
 times leven makes not forty feven, but fifty fixe. And then an d tels US .that by this 
 he is much to blame tor drawing downe the P ope*s pow- . * Y. ' C 
 
 er from fifty fix, to 47. And laftly, this Allufion hath no ^ appeareSj that linCC 
 
 ground of Truth at all. For the Emperour, being Solo the Earth is feven times 
 T>eo minor: Terttd, cannot be a Moone to any . , ,1 ,1 -is 
 
 other Sun, greater then the Moone, 
 
 ♦ and the 5^2 eight times 
 
 greater then the Earth , it muft needs follow y that the 
 
 Popes power is forty feVen times greater then the Em- 
 
 * Sed ilia Pote- perour’s. I like him well, he will make odds enough. 
 
 Iff But what, doth Innocent the third give no Reafonof this 
 rituaiibus , ma-' his Decretall ? Yes. And it is (faith he) d hecaufe the 
 jor eft ^ut verb $ un > w ]f lc ] ? rH l es \ n the day , that is } in Spirttuall things, is 
 
 wr! Innocent. 3. greater then the Moone, which rules hut in the night , and 
 ubi fnpra. i n carnall things . But is it poffible that Innocefitius the 
 
 lZfS,hi/L third, being fo wife, andfoable, as' that nothing T»bicb 
 rum (jua in hac he did, or commended, or difproyed in all his life } fhould af 
 vita egentUu - m fa t ] m M fit to bee changed ? could thinke 
 
 davertt <nut tm— o j o ' 
 
 probaverit, im- that fuch an Allufion of Spiritual things to the Day , 
 mat aium ftt , ^ which the Sun governes 7 and Worldly Buftneffeto the 
 piauna m v%t* yp me governes, fhould carie waight 
 
 enough 
 
. -9 ' 
 
 S’. 16. 
 
 205 
 
 (power, Rom A]. And the 
 t Higher Power there 
 mentioned is the Tem - 
 foralL And the * Ancient 
 
 fi?op , and in fpiritmU 
 Caufes too 3 fo the Form- 
 of Fdir/> and 
 
 r ■ •# , • 
 
 enough with it to depreffe hnperidl power lower then 
 
 God hath made it ? Out of doubt he could not. For 
 
 he well knew that Omnis Anima 5 every foule was to be Rom, 13. j. 
 
 fubjed tO the Hgher -j- Patres veteres J ($’ pracipuc Aug. Epift. 54. Apoftolur® 
 
 interpret antur de P oteftatefeculari t ant am loqui , quod & 
 ivf. T.xtus j ubindicat &c. S aimer on,Difput a 4. in Rom , 
 I 3 • § . Porro per Poteflatem. 
 
 * n a .71 ivj-jlct J'lcvrctrji’FU, at U§iv<rt Omnibus iPla impc- 
 
 rantur, & Sacerdotibm & Monachis . &c.Et poftea.EtE- 
 . awft Apoftolus fts,fi Evangehftaft Propheta y ftve quifquus 
 
 Fathers come in with a tandem fuer is. S. Chryfoft. Horn. 2 3 . in Rom. She eft Sa- 
 
 fu]l COnlent ThatOw- cerdos,five Antifter&c. Theodaret, in Rom. 13 . Si omnis 
 , . . 5 r l Anima,& veftra. gpuis vos excipit ab ZJniver(itate?(*re 0 
 
 MS Anm.l j every LOU e^ Jpjifunt qui vobis dicerefolent.fervate veftra Sedis hono- 
 
 comprehends there all reM & c ' StdChriftus aliter & lufftt y & Geflit.&c, S.Ber. 
 
 • 1 p - Epift.^i. ad Henricum Seuonenfem Archiepifcopnin. Et 
 
 Wltnout any Rxceptl- Theophilafr. *# .#00?, 13. Where it is very obftrvable,chat 
 on: All Sp'irituall men Theopbilatt. lived in the time of Pop: Gregory the ieventh. 
 pvpn trk T-TinUA} RG Anci S. Bernard after ir, and yet this Truth obtained then. 
 
 e\ en to tne tigbejt m- And this was aboutthe yeare? x x 
 
 a An fort e de Religione fas non eft ut dicat Imperator , vel 
 quos miferit Impcrator ? cur ergo ad Jmperatorcm veftri 
 venere Legati ? cur enimfecerunt Caufafua, Iudicemjto* 
 fecuturi quo dilleju dicaret ? &-€.$. Aug. L» l * cont. £pift« 
 
 Good Manners bee not ^ drnten ' c » 9 • Etquaftu fat fa pertineret ad Imperatorem 
 r\ % A J i advpvftu eos altquidftatuere qui prawn inRe/igionefeflan^ 
 
 lhaken. And where ?#r,/£/</NorcanthisbeiaidtobeulurpationintheEmpe‘‘* 
 they are fiiaken there ror t Nam S. Auguft. alibi ftc* Ad fmperatoris curam , de 
 
 „ i fTi qu dr ationemE) co reddittsrns cdSRes ilia maxim epertinem 
 
 ought to bee Prayer y bat.S. Aug. Epift. 1 61.& Epift. 50. Jguismentcfobrius 
 and Patience there Rlgibus dicat : Nolite. curare in Regno veftro d quo tene- 
 ought not to be Oppo - at “ r > ~ ei e N u & netHr Ecc/e fi a Domini veftril&c. Antiqui- 
 
 Jition by force. Nay hce 
 knew well that a Em- 
 perors and Kings are 
 
 Cuflodes utriufque Tabula : They 3 to whom the cuftody 
 and prefervation of both Tables of the Law for wor. 
 fhip to God 3 and duty to man are committed. That 
 a Bookie of the Law ivas by Gods owne Command in Mofe's 
 his time y tobcegiven the King b Tent. \y. That the 
 Kfngs under that Law, but Hill accordingto it ; did 
 proceed to Neceffary Reformations in Church Bufinef 
 fes • and therein Commanded the very Priejls them- 
 
 Dd 3 felves 
 
 1 //o j j w • / 
 
 t as r&e dixit> Afagiftrattts eft cuftos legis, filicet prim# 
 & fecund a T abula, quod ad difciplinam attinet. Confeftio 
 Saxon tea. §. 23 .^ Gerardus T 0. 6. Lecorum c.6,§, 5 , 
 Membro 1. probat ex Deut . 17 . 1 8 . 
 
 •> Deut. 17. i 8, 
 
io6 
 
 §. 2(5, 
 
 * 2 chron.29.4. f c j V es, as appeares in the Adis of* Hezgchiah andf /o- 
 f4.Reg.2 5 .2. who yet were never Cenfured to this day for 
 • ufurpingthe High Triefis Office. Nay hee knew fu ! l 
 welh That the greateft&^ow for the Churches Ho- 
 nour, Tbeodojius the Elder , and Iujlinian , and Charles the 
 Great , and divers other, did not only meddle now and 
 then, but did ina£fc Lawes to the great Settlement and 
 Increafe of Teligm in their feverall times. But then if 
 this could not be the Rcafbn , why hnocentius made 
 this ftrange Allufion , what was ? Why truly, Vie tell you. 
 The 'Pope was now growne to a great, and a firme 
 
 • Hie Maximus Pmifex totius Eedef,- height. a Gregory the JeVenth had let 
 
 ajiict LibertatisVnicus Af rtcr.Onuph. the Topedome Upon a broad bottOIYlC 
 in flat, in Cjreg. 7. For taking Occafion 1 r 1; T „ ( t | mp c~ r L 
 by the warre which Henry the fourth had oeroie tDlS 1 H) 0 Cm ime. nat 
 
 with the Saxons and their neighbours, nOW tis the lefie Wonder, if hee 
 
 and the complaint oj the Saxons made ma | ce fo boH w ith the Emperor , as 
 to the Pope (of which PUttna in the lire . , t f r 
 
 olCjregory the feventh ) the Pope wile tO deptehe him as loW as the A l00ne } > 
 
 enough for his owne advantages fought upon no better wound, then a 
 not only to tree hinalelre rrom the -Ew- L n rr t> r- i i r» i 
 
 peror ,but to make the Emperor fubieft to groundleile kefembiance. But be- 
 
 hm), and for this the Hiftory is plaine fide this prime T s eafon > there are 
 
 divers other, which may eafily bee 
 drawne out of the fame ( fiefemblance. For fince Inno - 
 hismaineayme wastopublifh the Topes great- 
 nefle over Kings and Empepors : why doth he not tell 
 us , That the Tope is as the Swine : and the Emperor as 
 the Moone. Becaufe as the Moone borrow es all her light 
 from the Swine : So the Emperor borrowes all his true 
 light from the Tope. Or becaufe as the Moone ftill in* 
 creafes in light folong as fhe folio wes the Sunne , but 
 fo foone as ever flhe fteps before the Swine fhee waines 
 prefently, and her light decreafes : So the Emperor , io 
 long as he is content to follow the Tope , and doe all 
 that he would have him, his light, and his power en- 
 creafe, but ifhe doe but offer to ftep before (though 
 that be his proper place) then his light, and honour, 
 
 and 
 
 enough. 
 
 i 
 
§. i6. 
 
 loj 
 
 
 and power, and all decreafe. And this Tope G egory the 
 JeVnuh made too good upon the Emperor Henry the 
 fourth. And Tope Adrian the fourth , and Alexand rthe 
 third , and Lucius the third with fome others, upon Fre~ 
 dcrick Barharojfi . And fome other Emprors were a ! ike 
 ferv’d, where they did not iubmit. And I hope no man 
 will blame the Topes Hohncffe tor this. For it the Em- 
 perors kept the ‘Topes under for divers yeares together, 
 whereas * Mam tels us it was , ^ utpote Regis %e , um vka ^ 
 againft all right they mould fodo , nunquam erat dejure 'tibditus J nptrato* 
 the Tepe being never rightfully nbus urrems tum Poi-jra, ends 
 
 . . * . ° . q J non crat nota : quia writ t. tern- 
 
 fubjeCt UntO them, I nope the x Ope poraiibus deftitutHS e>at, *U5tlet y nollet, 
 
 having now gOl* power enough, /xfygtttiSeflecogebatur'Bdhv.in^fpa- 
 
 may kcepe the Emperors under, and A ~ d •BeiiarmineU ac the lame Ar„ nent 
 not fuffer them any more to ftep for r Depofwg of Kings too. erant 
 
 before tbe Siam, I; Mn %S5?,tg^5£ 
 they are they looie ! ;heir Light. Now this is a moiUowduntrutn asap. 
 Or bccaufe as the ne is but -Vi- P' ires in rw/i>«,who lived about th e 
 
 c , thryeare200 under Severus. And the 
 
 Oroubliicute Chriitians then had lirength enough 
 i tclles US : So the Emperor , had they had right 
 
 curia Solis , theVi 
 of the Sunne as 1'f 
 the Emperor , at lea 5 
 Caufcs is but the 
 2 s[ight > that his H 
 other fide of the S 
 
 ,4 
 
 the Scripture pas y 
 
 enough with it. 
 
 i all Spirituall 
 
 ^Subflitute, and that for the t LJeMonan 
 ^may fleepethc quieteron the 
 mre. Or laltly (if you will abufe 
 00 often doe, and as Jnmcmtius 
 did in th cDecreb ll . sry grofly ) you may fay us , be- 
 caufe the Woman y watch all grant reprefented the * Revel 1 2.1? 
 Church. 3 TjVel. n. is clothed with the Suwie, that is, 
 with the glorious ray $ of the Poland had the Mun 3 m Fridtrid pf- 
 that is.the b Emperor under her feet. For this is as good, t ae con .P rim 
 as litterall as proper an interpretation or thele words, Scrips ft. Super 
 as that of Innocentius is^of the words Gen. 1. God made &bah- 
 
 tin 0 greatLightsfthe greater light to Tide the daj,and tbe lefs Nauderus Ch?o* 
 to rule the night . Thus he or you may give your witts G?”*ra.io»e 40.’ 
 leave to play, if yon will, for the Popes Decretallisa g Tn^ l7Qt 
 
 meets : 
 
2o8 
 
 N U M.I2. 
 
 $. 2 6 . 
 
 mccrc fancy.But the true reafon indeed, why Tnnocen- 
 tins made it, was that above mentioned. He was now 
 in chat greatneffe , thac he thought he might pa ffc 
 any thing upon th e Qmftian Tborld, that plea led him ; 
 And was therefore relolved to bring it into th efiody 
 eftbe Canon , that after times mighr have a La to le- 
 gitimate and make good their Tredecefors ufurpati- 
 on over Emperors and Kings . And rather then faile of 
 this, he would not fpare theabufing of S.ripture it 
 felfe. Where by the way, dares A.Q fay this Tcpe did 
 not err cin Cathedra , when he was fo daz'.ed betweene 
 theSwrm£andtheAf0o?/£, thathce wanted light in the 
 midftofitjto expound Scripture ? Well, I v-ouldbavc 
 thclefuites leave their pra£tifing,and remember, Firif, 
 that one Emperor willnotalwayesbeabietoeffablifh 
 and preferve one only Vniform pradfife and Excercife 
 of Religion. Secondly, that fuppofing he both can 
 and will fo do, yet thclefuites cannot be certaine^rhat 
 that one Vniforme Exercife of Religion fhall be the 
 RomaneCathoUke . And Thirdly, That as there is a Body 
 of Earthy world of ConfufIon,to Eclipfe their Meow the - 
 Emperor t fo in the fame way, and by likeinterpofiti- 
 on, the Moone when *tis growne toonearcin conjun. 
 <Sion,may Eclipfe their Surme the Tope And there is no 
 great doubt but he will & confidering what fome^reat 
 IQ igs make of the Topes power at .his day 5 when it 
 
 we are in this Comparifon between the 
 Sim and the Moon , give me leave a little farther to exa- 
 minc^whoi.Cand his fellow lefuites with fome others 
 would have to be this oncEmperorl am not willing to 
 meddle with any the fecret T>efigns of Forraim States: 
 but ifthey wil expreffe their Veftgns in print, or publifh 
 them by Great and Full Authority, I hope then it fhall 
 be neither unlawfull, nor unfit for me^ither to take 
 
 notice 
 
 pleafes them 
 And finc< 
 
§.z6> %Qp 
 
 notice, or to make ufe of them. Why then you may he 
 pleafed to know, They would have another Tranfl.i ~ 
 tion of the Empire from Germany to Spaing. They thinks 
 belike this Emperors line } though in the lame Houje , 
 is not ('athohke enough. And it you aske me 3 how 1 
 know this fccret , I will not take it up upon any 
 common report , though l well know what 
 that fayes. But Tie tell you how I know it. Some- 
 what above fours hundred yeares after hmocentius made 
 his Comment upon the two greate Lights , the Swine, 
 and the Moone , the Tope , and the Emperor : t a Spanifh yuhndt Puente 
 Friar folio wes the fame refemblance betweene the Za . C onveni - 
 
 't /* 1 * C 1 O ^ • t— T 1 • • CPlttAl dfi Id S do£ 
 
 Monarchies of %ome and opatne > in a I factor his, in- Monar^Us c*- 
 titled : 7 he Agreement of the two Catholike Monarchies , t die as La de la 
 and Printed in Spanifh in Madrid Anno 16 n. In the y^ifdJiT^nl 
 Frontifpice or: Title T age of this Booke there are fet out Efpamoi. y de- 
 two Scutchions : The one bearing the Crofie-tfeyes of 
 (Rome : The other the Armes of CaHile and Leon , both Reyes CatoUcu 
 j©yned together with this Motto a InVmculo pacts Anthz deE i'P a '^ * **- 
 
 t if I f" J r t L * Los Reyes del 
 
 bond or peace* On theonelide or this there is a mm y e J 
 
 Portraiture refembling Rome , with the Smne (Lining 
 
 over it and darting his bcames on S. Petes s Ifeyes 
 
 with this InJ cription* Luminare Mrjus, the greater Lighc *LumtnAreM+* 
 
 that it may governc the City ( that is Tome) and the w&prafitVrbrl 
 
 whole world. And on the other fide there’s another ^ 0r ^‘ 
 
 Image defigning Spaine , with the Moone (Lining over 
 
 f Luminare AfU 
 
 nus , sit fubdatur 
 Vrbi j (dr doming 
 twr OrH. 
 
 beiides. And over all this in the top of the Title-Tags 
 there is Printed in Capital! Letters, Fecit Deus duo Lu~ 
 minaria tnagna ; God made two great Lights. There 
 followcs after in this Author a Difcovery at large of 
 this Blazoning of thefe Armes ^ but this is the 
 
 E Subfiance 
 
 that and fpreading forth its Raiesupon me Spanifh 
 Scutcbmywkh this Impre fie : t Luminare minus 3 thelefle 
 Light, that it may befubjed to theGry (of Tome he 
 meanes) and fo be Lord to go verne the whole Tborld 
 
I 
 
 x - 
 
 ZIP §.z'6. 
 
 Subilmce ot it f and abundantly enough to fliew 
 what is aimed at, by whom^and for whom. And this 
 Booke was not (to 1 Sen out without the will and coo- 
 lent of the Staff. For it hath Printed before it ali man- 
 ncr of Licence, that a Booke can well have. For it hath 
 the approbation of Father Pedro de S#y^,of the Com- 
 pany oftfac lefuites. Of lohnde Jrcediauo^V’cov'mchll of 
 the Dominicans .Of Biego Granero, the Ltcencer appoint- 
 ed for the [up re me Councell of the fnquifttion. And fomc 
 * For ° rJcn f of the/e revifed this booke by 3 Order from the Lords 
 Con/eio Supreme of that Counted. And Salt of all the l\ings Priviledge is 
 b Fer Mand&da to with high Commendation of the Wbrke. But the 
 fjg nHefiT0 S [lanyard* < had need looke to it for all this., leaft the 
 French decci v e them. For now lately Friar Camfanelk 
 c 0 rrr* , . hath fet out an Eclogue upon the 
 
 c £hium QtlU aUt icoooooo horiu- . c . ^ . K ~ 
 
 rmr» % £x fingulh c entasis Jumeado umtm . Birth OLthe Dolphin, a Du til tit Per- 
 
 collet *00000. fircHHornm rmhtum miffuSup 8 riorum,by Licence from 
 
 JtipendMtoritm, commode , perpetuooue. , . JJ n . T ? • j i r 
 
 Pr opt ere a vmnes terra Principcs metunnt hlS Superiors, 10, Wilich lie Is, yCS CX- 
 
 ntmemagis d Ga/Ud , cjuam mejuam ah prefly , c That all the P/mCtS art HOW 
 
 CJe.F.TIio.CimpamelLt E:foga in Prin - more a f ra,d V"MCttbet Mr, for that 
 eipii GallUmm Delphi** 2 gativit<ttem, there IS provided for it Regnum Voi- 
 
 Monarchy. 
 
 But tis time to Returne. For A. Q. in this paffage 
 hath beene very Carefull to tell us of a Parliament , 
 and of Lip ng Magi ft rates and Judges befides the Lalt>~ 
 Pookes. Thirdly^ therefore the Church ofEnglaitd ( God 
 be thanked) thrives happily under a Gracious Prince^ and 
 well underfhnds that a Parliament cannot be called at 
 all timesjAnd that there arc njifihle Judges befides the 
 Law-Pookes, and One Supreme (long may he be ; and be 
 happy) to fettle all Temporall differences ( which 
 certainly, he might much better performe, if his 
 Kingdomes were well rid of «. A, C . and his fel- 
 lo wes ) And (lie believes too, That our Saviour (fbr 'tH 
 L . hath 
 
 N u m . i 3 
 A.c.p.60. 
 

 §.i6° ' ' %n 
 
 hath left in his Church) befides Ins Law-looke theScn- 
 flf«re,Vifible Magiftrates, and Iudges, that is, Ardli- 
 (hops and “TS'ifbops, under a gracious King, to govern c 
 both tot Truth and Peace according to the Scripture, 
 and her owne Canons and Conjlitutions } as alfo thofe of 
 
 the Cathollke Chwch , which erode . ^loueflucc^ut fub Cbrifto fitVnus 
 not the Scripture, and the lull Catos 'Rj&sr totim EccUju, fed fuffitit quod 
 
 of the Realms.* But iha doth not be- ? l * m f£"l" iiverf *[ t nvincU ; > 
 
 ' ~ n - . [cut f tint p lures Treats gubertUMtes plv* 
 
 lieve there is any Necefbty to have r Are gnu .Odum ,%/. L.i.Tratl. i.j>. 
 
 one Tope , or Bifiop over the Whole 
 
 Chriftian world, more then to have one Emperor over 
 
 the whole World. Which wereit poflible^She cannot 
 
 thinkc fie. Nor are any of thefe intermediate Iudges, 
 
 or that One, which you would have Supreme, 
 
 Infallible . 
 
 But fince a Kjngiome y and a Parliament pleafe A. C. ^ u M * 1 4* 
 fo well to patterne the Church by, I’ 1c follow him in the A ° p 6 
 way he goes, and be bold to put him in minde j that 
 in fome Kjngdomes there are divers Bufinefies of great- 
 eft Confequcnce, which cannot be finally and bind- 
 ingly ordered, but in and by Parliament : And particu- 
 larly the Statute Lawes which muft bind allthe Sub- 
 jeds ? cannot be made,and ratified,but there.Therefore 
 according to A. 0. owne Argument , there will be 
 foms Bufinefles alfo found, ( Is not the fetling of the 
 Divifions of Chrijlendome one of them }) which can 
 never be well fctled, but in a t Ge - . n n ... 
 
 . - . || * 7 Procter deject urn Concuierum (jexera-, 
 
 nerall L ouncell ? And particularly tne hum tonus Ecciefi yu* f$u audetintre- 
 
 making; of Canons, which muft if** ™rrigerc cmnes,ea mala qua Vni Verm 
 
 binde all Particular thrtfitans y and correttacrefcMt.&c.Gerlon.Declarat 
 (fhurches cannot be concluded,and d)efeciuum virornm Ecdefia^kor^ 
 
 eiftablilhed, but there. And againe , T °‘ 1 ^ o20p * 
 as the Supreme Magiftrate in the State Civill, may 
 not abrogate the Laves made in Parliament • though he 
 may Dilpenfe with the Sanction, or penalty of the Law 
 
 E e 2 , ijuoad 
 
 
ZIZ 
 
 §. z6. 
 
 * Stmt enim Indifiolubtlia Decrcta,qmbtu 
 reverentta debit a efi. Proiper. conr.f'olLi- 
 tGrem.c, I. And Turrecrernata, whol'aies 
 every t.hing that may be laid for the Popes 
 Supremacy, yet dares not fay ,Papam pop 
 (e rtvocare & toller omnia St at at a GV- 
 ntral'mm Conciliorum, (ed, Aliqua tan- 
 Uim. Io.de T urrecre. S umma de See left d, 
 L. $ ,c. 5 s . Etpofiea . Papa non pot efi re- 
 vocare fDccreta primornm quattior Con- 
 cUiorum, quia non Junt nifiDeclarativa 
 Articular um Fidei . Ibid ,c.^y,ad a um . 
 
 quod hie & mine , as the Lawyers fpeake. So in theEo 
 cJefiafticall Body, no Bijhop, no not the Pope ( where 
 
 his Supremacie is admitted ) hath 
 power to * difanull, or violate the 
 true and Fundamental! Decrees of 
 a Generali Councell \ though he may 
 perhaps dilpenfe in fome Cafes 
 with lome Decrees. By all which 
 it appeares , though fomewhat 
 may be done by the Bifhops and 
 Governours of the Church^to pre- 
 ferve the unity and certainty of 
 Faith, and to keepe the Church from renting, or for 
 Uniting it, when it is rent • yet that in the ordinary way 
 which the Church hath hitherto kept , fome things 
 there are, and upon great emergent Occafions may 
 be, which can have no other helpe , then a lawful! , 
 fre and well compofed Generali Councell. And when 
 that cannot be had,theChurch muff pray that it may, 
 and expedf till it may, or elfe reforme its felfe per par - 
 tesjjy Nalionall or <P roYmci all Synods . (as hath beene 
 * §. 24.2V. i. Did a before.) And in the meane time 9 it little befeemes 
 
 | And (lia.ll we think that Chrift the wi- C*' *^7 Chfiftian tO check at 
 
 the wifdome of t ChriQ, if he have 
 not taken the way they thinke fic- 
 teft to fettle Qmrch Differences. Or 
 if for the Churches fin, or Tryall, 
 the way of Compofing them be 
 left more unccrtaine , then they 
 would have it, that they Ttbich are ap- 
 proved may be knelt ne.i (Jor. 11.19. hut 
 the Icfuite had told me before,that 
 a Generali Counctll had adjudged 
 thefe things already. For fo hee 
 faics. 
 
 \ F. 1 
 
 lcll king hath not provided^&c. A. C.p. 
 60. Where I canno recommend either 
 c A .C. his Modeity, that he doth not,or 
 his cunning, that he will not go lo laire 
 as l'omc have done before him, though in 
 thele woj ds {fhall we thinks &c ) hee 
 goes too farre. N on videretur D ominus 
 diferetus fuijfe ( ut cum reverentia ejns 
 loqy.ar) nifi unicum pefife talem Vi ear i- 
 y.m reliqwjfct,qui hac omnia potefi. Fuit 
 autem eyas Vic arias Petrus. Et idem di- 
 ce?: turn efi de Succefioribus Petri, cum 
 cadent ab fur dit as feqtieretxr,fi pofi mor- 
 tem Petri , Humanam Natter am a fie ere - 
 ata?n fine regimine VntysP erfiont r eliqni fi- 
 fe t. Extravaga nt.Com.Tit.de Afajoritate 
 GrO beditntia c.Vnam SanPtam.In additi- 
 on. D. p. Tjcrtrandt Edit. Parifi. 1585* 
 
 - *-4 
 
S. 27‘ 
 
 Zl 
 
 F. 1 told him , that a Generali Councell , to wit> of 
 Trent , had already Judged ? not the %omane 
 Churchy hut the Proteftants to hold Errours . 
 That ( faith the B. ) Tbas not a La'frfull 
 CouncelL 
 
 Nu M. Io 
 
 B* It is true, that you replied for the Councell of 
 Trent. And my Anfwer was, not onely. That the 
 Counccll was not Legally in the neceffary Conditions 
 to be oblerved in a Generali (fmicell ; but alfo, That it 
 was no Generali Councelf which againc you are content 
 to omit.Confider it well. Fir/?, is that Councell Legally 
 the Abettors whereof maintaine publikcly 5 That it is 
 lawfull for them to conclude any controverfie , and 
 make it bee de fide, and fo in your IudgementFwwda- 
 mentalf though it have not , I doe not fay now,thc 
 Written Word of God for Warrant , either in exprefle 
 Letter . or necellary s , 
 
 f Stiamft non confrmetur, ne probat Hi Teftimonio Scrips 
 turarum. Stapl. Relett. (font. 4.J?. l.aHr. 3 . 
 
 * Here ^4. C. tells us, that doubt lejfe the Arrians alfo 
 did miflikg, that at Nfcethe Pope had Legates to carry 
 his me jf ages, and that one of them in his place fate as Pre * 
 Jident. Why but firft/cis manifcO,tbat Hof ms was Prcfr* 
 will not erre ) but dent at the Counceli of Nice,and not the Bi/hop of Rome, 
 
 + fBw. cither by himfeife or his Legates. And fo much *Afth4- 
 ^ 1 1 nafiios himfeife, (who was prefent, and Purely underftood 
 
 hable Tejlimony from the Councell of Nice, and who prefided there, as well as 
 
 itj nay quite extra, 'frith* f\ f - F ells : ffft^ fc eft Pnnceps Sjnodomm { So 
 
 f > , belike He prelided m other Councells as well as at Nicey 
 
 Out the Scrtpttiye . i\ay Hie formulam Fidel in Niexna Synodo cone epit. And 
 feCOndh isthatCoun- this tlic Arrians tliemlelves con fe fie to Conftantins the 
 J 1 \it T * 11 1 1 Emperour.then feducedtobe theirs. Apnd S. zAthanaf 
 
 Ceil Legally Where the Lpift. ad folitar. vitam agent es. But then focondly I doe 
 
 Pope, the Chicfc Perfon not except againft the Popes fitting as Prefidentj either at 
 
 to be Reformed, Hull or T""‘ * or that lie , mi 8 ht do ’ w , Ue " cal,ed > or 
 
 ✓ J / 
 
 fenfe, and deduction 
 (as all unerring Coun- 
 cels have had , and 
 as all mu ft have that 
 
 fit Prefident in it, and be 
 chiefe Iudge in his own 
 Caufe } againft all La'fr , 
 
 chofen to it, as well as any other Patriarch , if you con- 
 fider no more but his fitting as Trefident. But at Nice 
 the Caufe was not his own, but Chrifts, againft the Ar~ 
 rian ; whereas at Trent , it was meerelp his orvne, his own 
 Supremacy, and his (fthurches (forruptions 3 againft till 
 
 E e j 
 
 / 
 
J / 
 
 his ownc Dominion ? 
 To which all were noc 
 called , that had Deli- 
 
 Proteftanrs. And therefore furely not to fit F reft dent ft X>ivillt ? NdtUYdll , and 
 the Triall of his owne Cauie, though in ocher Caules hee rr , * j 
 mi^ht fit as well as other Patriarchs. And for that of ttumane. mapiace not 
 
 BelUrmine , L.i.de Concii. c. 2 1 . § . Tertia conditio , f rcc but in^Or tOO neare 
 
 Namely, That'tis mjttft to deny the Roman Prelat hts 
 'Right ( I us fuum ) in (falling Generali C ounce lls, and 
 Trending tn themjn poffetfton of which Right he hath bin 
 for 1500. yearcs\ That*s but a bold Ailertion ot the 
 
 Cardinalls by his leave. For he gives us no proofe of it, . r1 
 
 but his bare word. Whereas the very Authenticke Co- berative y or Coniulta- 
 pies of the Councells, publifhed, and printed by the Ro- g V ojrp * Jn which 
 manifls themfelves,affirme deerely, they were called by W ^ 
 
 Emperors, not by the Pope ; And that the Pope did not none had .lUttrage, DUt 
 
 prelide in all of them. And I hope Bellarmine will not fuch as WCrC iworne tO 
 exped , we ihould take hts bare word againlt the Com- 1 , 1 ri , 
 
 cells. And moll certaine it is, that even as Hof us Prefided ^ Pope and the £ burch 
 
 the Councell at Nice, and no wav that, as the Popes of %Qmc, and profefled 
 legate: foalfointhe lecond Generali Councell which Vntm ^ c tgx ,]) 
 was the firil of Conflantinopleflcltarms ©lthop ot Con - 
 fiantinople Prelided. Concii . Chalced. AH. 6,p. 1^6. 
 npud Binium.) In the third, which was the firll at Ephefus , 
 
 S. Cyril of Alexandria P relided. And though Pope Cat - 
 lefiiie was joyned with him, yet he tent none out of the 
 Wefi to that Councel, til many things were therein finitli- 
 ed as appeares apttd AH. C onctl. E 0 . 2 . c . j 6 y« In the 
 fourth, at Chalcedonite Legacs of the Bilhop of Rome had 
 
 the Prime place. In the fift, Enty chins Biihopof Con- 
 
 antinotile was Prelident. In the lixe and feventh, the • t if c „ 5 
 
 Legats of the Rope were P refident, yet fo as that almoft ttckf 9 before they WCTC 
 
 all the duty of a Moderator or Prefident was performed Condemned by the 
 in the feventh by Eharafus Bilhop of Confianttnople, as Cotmcpl] T hnnr an 
 appeares manifeftly in the Ads of that Councell. And “ Cel j J 1 ~pP e 
 fince thefe ieven are all the Generali Councells, which the. Allembly OI Enemies 
 GreekesandLitinesjoyntly acknowledge j And that in are nQ L*Tl>full Coun- 
 thefe other Patriarchs & Bilhops Prelided, as oft at Icaft as / 
 
 the Bilhops of Rome*, what*s become of BelUrmines Brag, 
 
 That the Rope hath beene polfelt of this Right of Preii- 
 ding in Generali Councells for the fpace of 1500. 
 yeares l 
 
 * Leo 1 o. Bull. Inn. S. 1520. 
 
 j > / ~ — 
 
 Enemies to all that cal- 
 led for formation y or a 
 free Councell. And the 
 *Pope hinalelfe,to (hew 
 his Charity., had decla- 
 red, and pronounced 
 the Appellants ? Here - 
 
 Nuti. 2. 
 
 cell ; and I thinke the 
 Decrees of fuch a one, 
 are omni jure nulla } and 
 carry their Nullity with 
 them through all Law. 
 Againc, is that Councell Generali , that hath none 
 of the Eajlerne Churches Confent, norpreiencc there? 
 Are all the Greekes fb become N on Fcclejia ,no Church, 
 that they have no Intereft in Generali Councels ? It 
 numbers indeed among the Subfcribers, li xcGreekes . 
 They might be foby Nation, or by Title , purpolely 
 
 given 
 
S.z 
 
 <*9 
 
 r 
 
 tii 
 
 given them * but date you fay they were a equally 
 
 Eijhops of, and knt from the Greeke (Jntfch to the 
 
 Councell ? Or is it to be accounted a Generali Councell, 
 
 that in many Seffions had lcarce Ten Archbiftwps , or 
 
 Forty, or Fifty Si (hops prefent ? And for the Weft of 
 
 Chrifkndome , nearer hon e, it reckons one Enghft? y 
 
 SoJfjfttpb. ButCardinall Poole was there too : And 
 
 Englijh indeed he was by birth f but not lent to that 
 
 Councell by the Kjng, and Qhurch of England, but as „ „ 
 
 one of the f Popes Legates * And (b we finde him in s?£ *,- 1 — " 
 
 the fift Seftion of that Councell- but neither before, 
 
 nor after- And at the beginning of the Councell, he 
 
 was not Sijhop in the Church of England ♦ and after he 
 
 was lyirchbijhop of ( anterburie , he never went over to 
 
 the Councell. And can you prove, that S. Aftaph went 
 
 thither by Authority ? There were but few of other 
 
 Nations, and, it may be , tome of them reckoned with 
 
 no more truth, then the Greeke s. In all the Seftions 
 
 under Paul the third, but two French men , and fbrae- 
 
 times none - as in the ilxt under lulius the third • when 
 
 Henr. i. of France protefled againft that Councell, 
 
 And in the end, it is well known, how all the French 
 (which were then a good part) held off, till the Cardi- 
 nally f Loraigne was got to { l(p?ne. As for the Spaniards } 
 they laboured for many things upon good Grounds, 
 and were moil: unworthily over- borne. 
 
 To all this ji. Q hath nothing to fay, but That it N u u, 3. 
 is not Necejfary to the Lawfidnefte y and Generalnejje of a 
 Councell , that all Biflwps of the World Jhould be actually 
 frejent, jubfcribe t or corfent, but that fuch Promulgation be 
 niade^M is morally fufftcient to give notice, that fuch a Coun- 
 cell is called , and that all may come, if they ml’- a?id that a 
 Major part, at } eaft,of tho/e that are prejent, give affent to the 
 Decrees. I will forget, that it was but p, 59. in which ~ 
 
 A. C , fpeakes of all Paftours , and thofe not onely 
 
 fummoned. 
 
2id> 
 
 f Vt aliqui wit- 
 tAntur, & adve* 
 nianty & come- 
 
 w&nt^&c. Bd- 
 lar. L.i.de fin. 
 til, c . 17 . §. 
 Qoarca, uc fat- 
 tens 0 
 
 § 6 *ts 
 
 1 
 
 * §. a 6, N . 1. 
 
 
 S.iS. 
 
 fummoned, but gathered together . And I will cafily 
 grant him, thae’tis not neceflary that all Bifhops in 
 the Chriftian world be prcfcnt,and fubferibe; But furc 
 *tis neceflary to the Generalnefie of a Councell , chat fome 
 be f there, and authorised for all Particular Churches * 
 And to the freedoms of a Councell ^ that all that come, 
 may come fafe. And to the Lawjulnefie of a Councell , 
 that all may come mingaged , and not fajlened to a fide, 
 before they fit downc to argue, or deliberate. Nor is 
 fuch a 'Promulgations A.C. mentions, fufficient, but 
 onely in Cafe of Contumacy 7 and that where they 
 which are called, and refufe to come > have no juft 
 Caufe for their not comming, as too many had in the 
 Cafe of Trent . And were fuch a Promulgation fuffici- 
 ent for the 9 eneralrtejje of a Councell $ yet for the 
 Freedoms and the LawfulneJJe of it, it were not. 
 
 p. So(faidl) would ^Arrians fay of the Counsel! 
 of Nice . The B. would not admit the Qafe to 
 be like . 
 
 B* So indeed you faid. And not you alone : ft is 
 the Common Objeftion made againft all that admit 
 not every latter Councell, as fully as that CounceU of 
 Nice j famous through all the Chriftian world. In the 
 meane time, nor you, nor they confider, that the Cafe 
 is not alike, as I then told you. If the Cafe be alike in 
 all, why doc not you admit f hat which was held at 
 Ariminum , and the fecund of Et'hefus, as well as Nice ? 
 If you fay (as yours doe) It wa* oecaufe the 'Tope ap- 
 proved them not. Th; * n >-* Caufe, but not Ade - 
 quote , or full. For it ufc the Whole Church 
 
 refufed them $ * \* the Rymane Prelate 
 
 (ftandingthen entire in theFaith) agreed, and fo (for 
 his Patriarchate) refufed thofc Councels. But fuppofe 
 
 ' • 
 
28. 
 
 %\~J 
 
 Church;, both then, and imce,went with 
 the Councell igainft thec^raVw.So is it 
 not here againil the Proteftant tax Trent. 
 For they offer to be tried by that very 
 
 k true, that thefe Synods were not admitted, be.cauie 
 thtTope refufed them, yet this ground is gained, That 
 the Caie is not alike for mens Affent to all Councells . 
 
 And if you looke to have this granted , That the Tope 
 mull confirrae, or the Conned’ s not lawfull • we have 
 farre morcreafonto looke, that this be not denied. 
 
 That Scripture mufk not he departed aU . ■ , , . . 
 
 r J * a Here A. C. teis us, that the lAmans 
 
 from, in a Letter , Gr necej] ary fenj e, or thought fo of the Councdl of n ice. 6 r . 
 
 the Councdl is not lawfull. For the Con- tliat c,ie y darted from Letter, 
 
 . r J • co • and Senieof Scripture. They laid io in- 
 
 tent ailu Conry Illation oi ocripture dted. But the Teltimony of the whole 
 
 is of farre greater Authority to 
 
 make the Councell Authentically and 
 
 the Deci lions of i tde fide i then any 
 
 Confirmation of che Tope can b« tSffJStAlltSSZ 
 "Nowofthele two 1 , the Councdl Of within the firlffbure hundred yeares, and 
 Nice, we are lure, had the firft, the lomewliac father. 
 
 ( l{uleof Scripture , and you (ay it had the fecond, the 
 Topes Confirmation. The Councell if Trent, we are able 
 to prove, had not th efirft, and lo we have no reafon 
 corefpettth e fecond. And to what end do youx. Lear- b So Stapleton 
 
 ned Men maintainc that a Councdl may make a Con- Fathers quite o- 
 clufion defide , though it be (imply b extra , out of therwile. £)h& 
 all bound of Scripture • but out of a Iealoufie at lead, 
 that this oflrent, and (onie others have in their Veter- fe»dam. Hilar. 
 min.Vwns left both Letter, and Senfie of Scripture. Shew 
 this againil the Councdl of Nice ^ and 1 will grant fo much vinitus infpira- 
 of the Cale to be like. But what will you fay, if c Con- tar f™ teftme* 
 (ha nine required, That things thus brought into Queftion, tpfic.Tom.uper 
 jhould he anfi ft cred, and jofoed by Tcflimony out of Scripture: dsUcolinum. 
 And the Bifhops of the Ncent Councell never refuled that JntiL 
 Tide. And w hat will you (ay, if they profeflethey de- P nr at i exS. T pi- 
 part not from it, d but are ready by many Teftimomes of dh 
 Vine Scripture to den ion fir ate their Faith ? Is the Cale then vinarum ' 
 alike betwixt it,: ind Trent ? Surely no.But you fay that I 
 pretended fomthingels/or my not admitting the Cafe p a *ek 
 to be alike. Ff T , Tre- Lderc, 
 
 (irbitri> 
 lurima P 
 
 Si 
 
 i Hr art* 7*1 i 
 monia d 
 
 xc it a fe 
 
218 
 
 §• zp 
 
 p, fretending that the Tope made IBifhops of pur- 
 pofe , for his fide . this the Bifhop proved 
 
 net. 
 
 § B* No : Nor had I realbn to take on me to 
 Hum. 1 . prove what I faid not. I know it will be cxpe&ed 1 
 (hould prove what I fay. And it is hard to prove the 
 purpoft of the Tope's Heart. For if it be proved that 
 he made Bijhops at that time* that lome of them were 
 Titular oncly , and had no Livelihood t8 liibfift , but 
 out of his purfe (and lomuft hang their fudgemenc 
 at the firings of it- ) That lome of thefe thus made 
 were lent ro the QounceU • and fure not without their 
 Errand : yet if the Tope will fay, he ^either made, nor 
 lent them to over-rule the Holy Ghofi at that Meeting, or 
 of purpofe for his fide (as no queftion but it will be 
 laid ) who can prove it, that is not a Surveyor of the 
 heart { But though the Pope's heart cannot be feenc > 
 yet if thefe, and the like Prelumptions be true, it is a 
 great ligne that Trent was too corrupt, and fa&iousa 
 Meeting for the Holy Ghofi to be at. And fure the Cafe 
 in this, not alike at Nice. 
 
 1 ’ That which I laid was , That Trent could be no 
 
 Indifferent Councell to the Church , the Tope having 
 made himfelfe a ftrong Party in it. And this I proved, 
 though you be here not onely content to omit, but 
 
 plainely to denie the 
 
 f Here A. C. is angry, and faves : Thujas no Proof c, nor p roo (c. For I proved it 
 worthy of any Anfwer t or looking into the r Boohe for it. « , f 
 
 Firft, becaufe 'tii onely a Surmife of Adverfaries , Pc ho are thUS (and yOU T aniWe- 
 apt to interpret to the Vforfi. Secondly Jeeaufi there might j-gJ not) That thetC 
 be more Italian 'Bijhops there being nearer , yet without T1 f n • 
 
 any faflions Combination with the Tope : *y4s in the WCtC ItlOtC Italian Bl- 
 
 Cretke Conmels more Grecians were prefent. A.C. p. &2. fl?0pS there , then of 
 No preofe, or a weake one. Let the Reader IuJ°e that. , 0 1t U^CA^n 
 
 But why m Trocfe ? Becaufe « furmife of Adverfaries . a11 Cbnitendome beiicks. 
 
 Is that a Surmife of Adverfaries , that is taken out of More -I Yea more then 
 
 - double^ 
 
 N u u 
 
double. And this I 
 proved out of the Coun- 
 ceil it ftlfe , which you 
 had in your hand in 
 Decimo fexto • but had 
 no great heart to looke 
 it. For, where the 
 number of relates 
 is exprefted, that had 
 Suffrage and Vote in 
 that Councell , the Ita- 
 lians are fee downe to 
 bee 187. and all the 
 reft make but 85. So 
 that there were more 
 
 the Councell it felfe ? Is tint Ccunccll then become 
 %egnum divifum, and ape to interpret the worft of it 
 lelte? Yd but there were more Italian c Bifoops i a* being 
 nearer. Molt true. Nearer a great deale then the Gre- 
 cian Bijhops . But the Bijhops of France and oh Time 
 parts of Germany were almolt as ne ie as the ltali- 
 ans themlelves. -And why then cam " 101 oreofThefe, 
 that were neare enough ? Well: i . (f, may fay what 
 he will. But the Pope remembred well the Ccuncels of 
 Conflance, zndBafil , and thought it wildome to make 
 fure worke at Trent. For in later times ( for their owne 
 feares no doubt ) the Bijhops of Rome have beene no 
 great friends to Cjener all ( euneels , elpeciallv Freeonesi 
 (JMulti fufpicantur , quod h<tc diffimulaverit Tfomana 
 Curia , dr Concilia fieri neglexerit , ut pofsit ad Ju& 
 voluntatis libitum plenius dominari , dr Jura aliarum 
 Ecclefiarum liberius ufurpare. fjuod non ajfero effeve- 
 rum } fed quia hujufmodi labor at infamia , ideo drc. Pec de 
 Aliaco. ifard.CameracenfisL . de Reformat, Ecclef. in 
 fafcic, rerum expetend. fo. iCn\ % A a 
 
 Italian Bijhops by 104- then of all the reft of Cbriften- 
 dome. Sax ezhe Tope did notmeaneto be over-reached 
 in this Jomceil. And whatfoever became of his In- 
 fallibility other wife, he might this way be fure to be 
 Infallible in whatfoever he would have Determined; 
 And this without all doubt 3 is all the Infallibility he 
 hath. So I prov :d this fufficiently, I thinke. For if ic 
 were not to be fure of a fide, give any fatisfying rea- 
 fon , why luch a potent Party of Italians, more then 
 double to the whole Chriftian world, jfihould be there? 
 Shew methelikefor Nice, and I will give it 3 that the 
 Cafe is alike betweene thefe two Councels. 
 
 Here r Bellarmine comes in to helpc : But fure it >4 Ll M 
 will not helpe you, that he hath offered at as much 
 againft the Councell of I\ {ice, as I have urged 
 againft that at Trent. 
 
 For hee tels us, *T hat 
 in the Qouncell at Nice , 
 thereafter ecu few Bijhops 
 
 of the Well prefent y as ypere of th c Eafl at Trent 3 
 
 F f z but 
 
 3 9 
 
 * In Concilia Nics.no primo ex Occidente folum /. *rmt 
 duo Presbyteri mifsi ex Italia , unut Epifcopus ex 'allid, 
 mm ex Hifpanid i & untu ex A fried, Bellar. L. (fan-* 
 cil. c • 1 7. §. Antepenult . 
 
220 
 
 §■ 2p. 
 
 but five in all. Be it fo. Yet this will not make the Cafe 
 alike between the twoCouncels. Firft, becaufe I prcflc 
 not the difparity in number oncly,- but with it the 
 Popes carriage, to be fure of a CMa]or part For it lay 
 upon the Tope to make lure workcat l rent, both for 
 himfelfc, and his Church. But neither the Qreeke 
 Church in generall, nor any Patriarch of the Safi had 
 any private intereft to looke to, in the Qounceb at TSfice . 
 Secondly , becaufe 1 prelTc not fo much againft the 
 Councell of Trent , T hat there were fo exceeding many 
 !Bifhops of the Weft compared withthofe of the Saji 
 (for that mud needs be, when a Councell is held in 
 the Weft ) but that there were fo many more Italians, 
 and ' B./hopi obnoxious to the Tope’s povper , then of all 
 Germany, France, Spaine ,\ nd all other Patts of the Weft 
 befides, Ihirdy y becaufe both f BeUarmine and A.C . 
 letke to avoid the Dint of this Argument, by compa- 
 ring the WeTtcrne with the Eafterne Bifhops , ai d arc 
 content to lay nothing about the Exceflivt number of 
 Italians } to others of the IVtft : That will receive a ful- 
 ler Anfwer then any of the reft. For though very 
 few Weft erne ^Bifhops were at the Councell of Nice, be- 
 ing fo remote: yet at the lame time Pope Sylveftcr held 
 a Councell at %ome, in which He with 175. Bifhops of 
 f Omnes qnl ah* the Weft confirmed the NiceneCr eed ; t anl Anathemati- 
 fifuerint di(fol- ^ e j a [[ t j JO f e y^Nch (hould dare to dijfoiye the Definition 
 of that Holy , and Gnat Councell . N o w let BeUarmine , or 
 Magnt Concdii , A.C. or any els fhew, That when the Councell vf Trent 
 «ju j d apud Ntcx- f at there was another Councell (though nevtt fo pri- 
 
 am congrcqMtum * ' O r 
 
 eft, dtuithtmati- vately in regard of their milerable Opprefsionj which 
 z-ctntw. Concii. f atc j n Greece, or anywhere in the Safi, under any Vatri- 
 
 vdlro arc ^ or Chriftian Bz/Zo/^which did confirm the Canons 
 nium.p.^9. ofche Councel 1 of 1 rent, and Amthematvzj them which 
 
 admitted them not, and I will anfefle they fpeakc 
 home to the Comparifon between the Qomcels, els a 
 
 blindc 
 
ZZl 
 
 §• 2p. 
 
 blinde man may fee the difference, and ’tis a <vaft one. 
 
 But here A . C. makes account he hath found a 
 better reply to this,and now teis us,that neither French 
 nor Spanifh^n r Schifmaticall Greekes did agree irithPrcte- 
 Jiants i:: thofe Points which toe re defined in that (jmn- 
 cdl , efpe dally af ter it was Confirmed by the Pope , as ap - 
 p ares by the Cenfure of Ieremias the Gretke Patriarch . 
 Who agreed with the ''Protefiants in the Points de- 
 fined by that Councell, ( as he (peakes)or rather ( to 
 fpcake properly ) againft the Points there defined ,• I 
 knovv not. And for ought A. C.knowes, many might 
 agree with them in heart, that in fuchaCounccll 
 durft net open themfe! ves. And what knowes A C. 
 how many might have beene of their Opinion in 
 the rnaine before the Ccuncell ended,had they beene 
 admitted to a faire, and a freeVijpute } And it may 
 be too, do me Decrees would have beene more favour- 
 able to them, had not the care of xhcPopts interefl 
 made them fowrer. For elfe what mean thefe words, 
 Especially after it was confirmed by the Pope ? As for Itre- 
 #ifcu,'tis true, his Cenfure is in many things againfl the 
 Protefiants : But I finde not that that Gnfure of his is 
 warranted by any Authority of the Greeke Church : 
 Or that he gave th cProteftants any hearing, before 
 he pa fled his Cenfure. And at the mod, it is but the 
 Cenfure of a Schifmatick in A . C s . owne Judgement. 
 And for his flourifh which followes, that Eafl,and 
 Wefi tvouid Condemns Protefiants for Hereticks, I would 
 he would foibeare prophesying, till both parts might 
 meet in a free Generali Councell, that fought Chrifi 
 more then themfehes . But I finde the Ie finite hath not 
 done with me yet., but addes : 
 
 * . • 
 
 F. In 
 
 Ff 3 
 
 N u m . 4. 
 A t C /.da. 
 
 i 
 
2Z2 
 
 S'- 3°' 
 
 §• 3 ®- 
 
 A.C.f. 61. 
 
 p. In fine, the B. Tbified , T hat a Law full Generali 
 Councell were called to end Cent r over fie s. The 
 Ter foils prefent /aid , That the £\jng "to as inclined 
 thereunto , and that therefore we Cathohkes might 
 doe Veil to concurre . 
 
 B* And what fay you to my jTif? ? you pretend 
 great love to the Truth , would you not have it found? 
 Can you, or anyChriftian be offended, that there 
 fhould be a good end of Controverfes ! Can you think 
 of a better end, then by a Generali Councell ? And if you 
 have a moji Gracious Kjng inclined unto it ( as you fay 
 it was offered ) how can you acquit your felves, if 
 you doe not confent? Now here A. C. marvels Vrhat 
 Kind of General Conned 1 would haVe,and what Titles I would 
 have obJerVed in it, which are morally like to be obferved, 
 and make an end of ControVerfes better then their Catholike 
 Generali Councels . Truly I am not willing to leave A. C. 
 unfatisfied in any thing. Nor have I any meaning to 
 trouble the Church with any New Devifings of 
 mine. Any Generali Councell fhall fatisfie me, (and, l pre- 
 fume, all good Chriftians) that is lawfully called, 
 continued, and ended according to the fame courfe , 
 
 and under the fame * Conditions , 
 which Generali Councels obferved in 
 the Trimitive Church ; which 1 am 
 fure were (faun cels Generali, and Ca- 
 tholike , what ever yours bee. But I 
 doubt that after all noyfc made about thefe Tgquifete 
 Conditions, A. C.and his LelloVaes will be found as much, 
 if not more defc&ive in performance of the Conditions, 
 then in the conditions them felves. Well, the lefuite 
 goes on for all this. 
 
 * Ex its Concitns omnium confenfu 
 Generaliaftterm, quoti* fimt quatuor 
 prima: Etex confnet udine Ec cleft a col- 
 liotmus quatuor C ondit tones ? equir i , & 
 
 Con.c . 1 7 . § . 2 . 
 
** ' 
 
 $• ?*■ 
 
 123 
 
 F* 1 asked the B. whether bee thought a Generali 
 Ceuncell might err e ? He J aid it might. 
 
 B- I prefume you doe not expcdH fhould enter 
 into the Proofe of this Controvert, Whether a Gene- 
 rali Councell may erre in Determination , or not ? Your feife 
 brought no proofe that it cannot, and till that bee 
 brought, my fpecch is good that it can: and yet I hope 
 to bee found no Infringer of any Power given by 
 Chrift to his Church.But it fecmes by that which fol- 
 lowes,youdid by thisQueftion {(fan agenerall CounceO 
 Erre}) but fecke to winne ground foryour other J 
 which followcs. 
 
 §. jl. 
 
 F- If a Generali Councell may erre , what nearer are ' 
 "free then ( [aid I) to unit), after a Counccll hath 
 determined ? Yes ( faid he ) although it may erre * 
 yet Tbe fhould be bound to hold Tbith it, till another 
 come to reyerfe it. 
 
 B Whether a Generali Councell may erre, or not, 
 is a Qucftionof grearConfequenceinthe Church of 
 Chrift. To fay it camv rre, leaves the Church not on- 
 
 ainft an errour once Determi- 
 lenfe that it may need a Rcmc- 
 :e to feekc it, which is the mile- 
 me at this day. To fay it can erre, 
 members of the Church to an 
 srins; in the Faith , to make un- 
 ily to difrefpecf former Counctls of 
 to flight andcontemne whatfo- 
 ermine,* into which Errour fome 
 ,reh of (Rome have fallen. And upon 
 iur Queftion, Wherein are we nearer 
 
 32. 
 
 N U Mo 1 , 
 
 ly without Retried 7 
 ned ; butalfo with 
 dy,and fo withou 
 ry of the Church of 
 feemcs to expofe 
 uncertainty and 
 quiet Spirits , n 
 theChurch,but 
 ever it m ay nov 
 Oppofers of tb 
 this is ground 
 
to unity, if a Councell may erre ? But in relating my an- 
 fwer to thisyouare not fo candid - For my irords did 
 not found as yours feeme to doe , "That Dree Jbould hold 
 T frith the Councell, erre, or not erre, till another came to reDerfe 
 it As if Grounds of Faith might vary at the jacket, 
 and be cart of each fide, as a cunning hand might 
 lay them. 
 
 u M You forget againe, omit at leaft (and with what 
 
 minde you beft know) the Caution which I added. Fcr 
 I (aid ? The Determination of a Generali Councell 
 erring was to ftand in force , and to have externall 
 * §. 33 . CMS* 5.2^. And the Obedience at the leaft yeelded to it, 
 
 Reafonof thisis 3 Becaufetohave a Cje- till JSvideilCe Of Scripture y Or a Dtf- 
 nerai Councei deceivers not lmpoffiblej monflratm to the Contrary made the 
 
 But altogether lmpofhbie it is that Be- J i -n i 
 
 monHrative r Reafon or Tefiimony Di- EtrOUt appCate-and Untlil thereup- 
 on t another Councell of equall au- 
 thority did reverfe it. And indeed 
 I might have returned upon you 
 againe : If a Generali Councell not 
 Confirmed by the Tope may erre 
 (which you affirme) to what end 
 then a Generali Councell ? And you 
 may Anfwer,yes : For although a 
 Generdl Councell may erre , yet the 
 Tope as Head of the Church, cannot. 
 An excellent meanes of unity, to 
 have all in the Church as the Tope 
 will have it ? what ever Scripture 
 lay^ or the Church i hinke. And then 
 I pray, to what end a Generali Coun- 
 cell ? Will his Holme jje be fo holy, 
 as to con firm e a Generdl Councell ? if 
 it Determine againft him ? And as 
 for * Tellarmines reafons why a Ge< 
 nercdl Councell fhould be ufefull, if 
 
 not 
 
 vine fliould decet ft. Hooker L , i,Ec,Pol. 
 §.7. , 
 
 f In which cafe Afaldotiat puts in the 
 ihrewdeft Argument. Namely, that this 
 way we lhould never have a cercaine end 
 ofControverfies. For to try whether any 
 tiling were Decreed according to the 
 Word of God by one General Councel, 
 we fliould need another Councell; And 
 then another to try that ; And To in infini- 
 tum. So our faith lhould never have where 
 to fettle and reft it ftlfe.Afa/djn S. Mat. 
 18. 20. But to this I anlwer, That the 
 Ancient Church tooke this way, as will 
 afterward appeare in S, Augufiine. Next, 
 here is no uncertainty at all ; For no Ge- 
 nerali Councell lavs fully called, and fo 
 proceeding, can bequeftioned in another, 
 unlefle it lo fall out, that evident Scrip - 
 ture y or a c DemonUration appeare againft 
 it. Blit either of theft are lo cleat e and 
 manifeft, that there need he no feare of 
 proceeding in infinitum, and leaving the 
 Faith in uncertainty , in neceff cries toSal- 
 vation. And in curious Speculations it is 
 no matter, whether there be certainty or 
 no, with or without a Councell. §.33. 
 Confid 5. Nu . 1 . & 2. 
 
 * RAhr.L.^Je Ro.. Pontj, c. 7. ^.3. err. 
 
v* . 
 
 I 
 
 115 
 
 not necefliry ) though the Pope lee 1 1 fallible, they are 
 io weake in Part, and in part fo unworthy- that lam 
 fory any necefhty of a bad caufe (houid force fo 
 learned a man to make ufe of them. 
 
 Here A. C. tels mee, The Caution mentioned , as 
 omitted y makes my An fiber Wcrfe then the lefuite relat- 
 
 N 11 m. . 
 A\C.p. 6$.' 4 
 
 edit.' And that in two tlings . Firit, in that the It- 
 (uite relates it thus : Although it may t rre : but the (fan- 
 thn makes it , as if it diiaH tally erre. Secondly j in that 
 the lefuite relates, That Wee are bound to hold it, till 
 another come to reVerfe it ; that is f w e not knowing whe- 
 ther it doe erre or not , but on Ay that it may erre. But 
 the Caution puts the Cnfe fo , as if the Determination of 
 a Generali Councell aHually erring wt'r> not ipfo jure/;/- 
 (Valid , but imjl [land in force , and have external! Obe- 
 dience ycelded to it, till not onely moral! Certainty , but 
 Evidence of Scripture , or a Bemonflration to the Contra- 
 ry make the errour appeare • And when it appeases , race 
 ■muH ye eld cur Obedience, till a Councell of e quail Au- 
 thority reVerfe it , whib perhaps will not bee found 
 in an whole l/ge. So either the hfuitc relates this Jpeech 
 truly , or lefje dif gracefully . And A. C. thinkes ^ that 
 upon better ludgement , I Will not allow this 
 Caution. Truly 1 ihall not thanke the lefuite for any 
 his kindnefTe here. And for the Caution , l mult 
 and doc acknowledge it mine, even upon advife - 
 ment , and that whether it make my Anfwer worle 5 
 or better. And 1 thinkc farther 3 that the lefuite hath 
 no great Caufe to thanke A. C. for this Defence of 
 his Relation. 
 
 FirH then th t lefuite (Co fayes ^.C.)dofch in his ^ ela - Num, 4. 
 tion make it but a*/ uppojttion, That a Generali Councell 
 mayerre.But the Caution expreffes it as aHually err- 
 ing. True , But yet I hope this Exprefliori makes no 
 Generali Councell aHually erre. And then it comes 
 
 G g all 
 
zz6 
 
 *$ynoc{tim Gene* 
 ralem ultquoties 
 errajfe percept 
 ymr.Wal<JX.2. 
 dt Vottrin. Ftdti 
 *Art. 2, q % i £. 
 §.I. 
 
 N 11 M. 5. 
 
 A . Gip. 6^ t 
 
 1 §’^ 2 “ 
 
 all to one , whether I fuppofe that fnch a Councell 
 may erre , or that it doe erre. And tis fitter for clearing 
 the Difficulties into which the Church fals in fuch a 
 Cafe to fuppofe ( and more then a fuppofition it is 
 not) a Generali Councell * adually erring, then as on- 
 ly under a Poffibility of Erring. For the Church hath 
 much more to doe to vindicate it felfe from fuch an 
 Errour a&ually being, then from any the likeErrour 
 that might be. 
 
 Secondly u/L C. thinkes, he hath got great advan- 
 tage by the words of the Caution j in that I fay, A 
 Generali Councell erring is to /land in force , and have exter- 
 nall Obedience, at lcaftfofarreasitconfiftsin filence, 
 Patience,and forbearance yeeldedto it, till Evidence of 
 Scripture, or a Demonflration to the Contrary make the Error 
 appear e^and untill ther upon another Councell of equal Author U 
 ty did reVerfeit. Weill I fay it again.But is there any one 
 word of mine in the Caution , that fpeakes of our 
 knowing of this Errour? Surely not one (thats A.Q\ Ad- 
 dition} Now fuppofe a Generali Councell adually Er- 
 ring in fome Point of Divine Truth, I hope it will not 
 follow that this Errour muft beefo grofle, as that 
 forthwith it muft needes beknowne to private men . 
 And doubtlcfle fill they know it. Obedience muft be 
 yceldcd ; Nay when'they know it (if the Errour be not 
 manifeftly againft Fundamentall Verity , in which cale 
 a Generali (founcell can not eafily erre ) I would have 
 A Q. and all wife men Confider. Whether External! 
 Obedience be not even then tobeyeeldcd. ForifCWro- 
 Verfies arife in the Church fome end they muft have, 
 or they *11 teare all in funder. And I am fure no if dome 
 can thinke that fir. Why then fay a Generali (founcell 
 Erre, and an Erring Decree be ipfojurel by the very Law 
 it felfe invalid , I would have it wifely confidered 
 again, whether it be not fit to allow a Generali Qouncell 
 
 that 
 
$ 3V 
 
 zzy 
 
 iliac Honour and P ri viledgc 5 which all other Great 
 Courts have. Namely, That there be a Declaration of 
 the Invalidity of its Decrees , as well as of the Laws of 
 other Courts,before private men can take liberty to 
 refufe Obedience>¥or till fuch a declaration^ the Councel 
 ftand not in for cc,A.C: fets up Private Spirits to con- 
 troll GenerallCouncelsy^is the thing hefooften,and 
 fomuch cryes outagainftin the Troteftants.' Therefore 
 it may feeme very fit and neceflary for the Peace Mr is not Jong 
 of Chriftendome, that a Generali Councell thus erring 
 fhould ftand in force, till Evidence of Scripture , ora t^Parliamems* 
 Demonstration make the Errourto appeare, *as that Jt Was buc P* 
 another (Jounce ll of equall Authority rtVerfe it . For ptrifament^d 
 as for Morall Certainty , thafs not ftrong enough ti,e of it 
 in Toints of Faith. ( which alone are fpoken of here) force^thoughfoi" 
 And if another Councell of e quail Authority cannot thing bcmiihken 
 be gotten together in an Age, that is fuch an Incon- ! nth ?™) or found 
 venience,as the Church mult beare,when it happens, ther Parliament 
 And far better is that inconvenience, then this other, of et J uaI A .utho, 
 f that any Authority lefle then a Generali Councell , Ihould them?Fcr I pr^ 
 refeinde the Decrees of it, unlefle it erre mamfcjlly^ and lume you will 
 intolera’ly : Or that the whole Church upon peaceable, foio^AutlwT 
 and juft complaint of this Errour negleft: or refufe to ty to abrogate 
 call a Councell and examine it. And there come in ot Pariia “ 
 
 5 . . _ ♦ ment. 
 
 jSLauonaU or Trovinciall Cowicels to a reforme for them- f §. 35. Conjid. 
 
 felves.Butno way mull lye open to private men to 
 
 b Refufe obedience } till the Councell be heard,and weighed, b § # 2 ^ n'h.\^ 
 
 as Well as that which they fay , Nmeji infnicr „ m M , cm m ' Sxperio ‘ 
 
 againft it^-yet Wit c ‘Stllarmms Ex- res legitime procedant necne r nifirnanife - 
 
 ception ftlll : loti errour be not ma - tntolerabtlem Srrorem 
 
 mfeitly intolerable. Nor is it ht for Alii dicum Concilium. 
 
 Private men, in luch great Cafes as Jacob. Almain m 3. f en t[ z). 34, 
 
 this ,upon which the whole peace 
 of Chrifhndome depends, to argue thus ; The Error ap- 
 peares,Therefore the Determination of the Councell is 
 ipfo jure invalid. Bi'it this is farre the fafer way ( I fay 
 
 G g 1 ftill 
 
$ 35 ' 
 
 ftill 9 when the Errour is neither Fundamental l , nor 
 in itfelfe manifefl ) to argue thus; The Determina- 
 tion is by equall Authority , and that /tcundum jus, ac- 
 cording to Law declared to be invalid. Therefore 
 the Errour appearcs. And it is a morehumbleand 
 confcientious way, for any private man to buffer 
 a Councell to goe before him s then for himtoout- 
 runne the Councell. But weake and Ignorant mens 
 outrunning both God , and his Church is as bold 
 a fault now on all fides , as the daring of the Times 
 hath mads it Common . As for that which I have 
 added concerning the Poflibility of a Generali Conn- 
 cells emng,\ (hall goe on with it, without asking any 
 farther leave of A. C. 
 
 For upon this Occafion I (hall not hold it 
 amifle a little more at large to Consider the Poynt 
 of Generali Councels > Ho It they may , or may not 
 erre. And a little to iooke into the omane and 
 Trot eft ant Opinion concerning them , which is 
 more agreeable to the Toster and Tji'e which Chrijl 
 hath left in his Church •, and which is m >ft prefer- 
 vative of Peace eftablifhcd , or ablcll to reduce 
 perfect unity into the Church of Chrift , when 
 that poore Ship hath her ribs dalhed in (under by 
 the waves of Contention* And this I will adven- 
 ture to the World , but only in the Nature of a 
 Confidention , and with fubmiffion to my Mother y 
 the Church of England , and the Mother of us all, 
 the r VniVer(all Catholike Church of (fb>itt . As I 
 doe mod humbly All whatfoever • el(e is herein 
 contained. 
 
 Firfl then , I Confider , whether all the Totter , 
 that an Oecumenical l CounceU hath to Determine, 
 and all the A r siftance it hath, not to erre in that 
 Determination , it hath it not all from the 
 
 * ( ath o' ike 
 
*Si Ecclefiot Vmverjitati non efi data nil a 
 9 s 4 uthorii 04 , Ergo neque Concilio Gene- 
 lifiuatentu Eecleftam Univerfalem re- 
 praftntat. Be- r. L. 2. ae Concil. c. 1 6, 
 §. Q_od fi Eccldia. 
 
 1 ‘ Concilium Generale Ecclejiam repra- 
 fentans . Ia, Almain. in 3. Sent.* Z). 24. 
 
 Counted. Epifcopi (tint Ecclepa repra- 
 Jentative, tit no(lri loquunttir. Bellar.Z. 
 3. de Ecd.Milit.c, 14. §• 3, 
 c §. i6.Nu.%. 
 
 §-Vr ^9 
 
 a Catholike ^OmVerfall Body of the 
 (fhurch, and Clergie in the Church, 
 whofe b feprefentattVe it is? And 
 it (eemesit haih. For the Govern- 
 ment of the Church being noc 
 c Monarchical /, but as Chrijl is Head > 
 this Principle is inviolable in Na- 
 ture: Every Body Co 1 * e Clive that re - 
 prefents, receives power, & priv Hedges 
 from the Body which is reprefented , els a feprefentation 
 might have force without the thing it reprfents - 
 which cannot be. So there is no Bower in the Coun- 
 ceO, no Mf fiance to it, but what is in, and to the 
 Church. But yet then it may be QueftionedjWhcthcr * omnU repr *. 
 the BepreJ enting Body hath ^ all the VoWer,Strengtb y and f enutit v*rt*tt 
 Briviledge, which the Reprefented hath ? And luppofe /f*Zl rotate, 
 it hath all the Legall Power, yet it hath not all the Nd- Repr*f e » - 
 
 turall, either of ftrength, or wifdome, that the whole 
 hath. Now becaufe the Bgprefentative hath power Tho.i.s.?. ioi. 
 from the Whole y and the Maine Body, can meet no other 2 • 
 
 way- therefore the ASls % Lawes , and Decrees of the 
 Bepre/entatiVe , be it EcclejiaflicaQ, or Civill, arc Bind - 
 ing in their Strength . But they are not fo certaine , 
 and free from Errour, as is that Wifdome which refides 
 in the Whole . For in AJfemblies meerely Civill , or£c- c 7efn enim 
 cle fia flic all, all the able and fufficient men cannot be in 'cfZgfegatiZ^ 
 the Body that %eprefents, And it is as poffible, fo ma- Concilio Gene - 
 ny able, e and fufficient men (for fome particular bu- 
 finefle) may be left out, as that they which are in, may re, quant in ho - 
 mifle, or mif apply that %eafn , and Ground , upon reput *n- 
 which the Determination is principally to reit. Fiete, rumqni ad illud 
 for want of a cleare view of this ground, the Bgpre- Concilium 
 
 fentat’Ve Body crres ; whereas the Beprefented, byver- ZZentf*™' 
 tue of thole Members which law and knew the Ockam. 
 ground, may hold the Brmcipk inviolate J. 3 ‘^’ 
 
 Gg ] Secondly , 
 

 2^0 
 Con j id. z, 
 
 a Eccleftd eft 
 unum Corpus 
 mjflicum per Si- 
 mUitudtnem ad 
 Naturdle. Da- 
 rand. g. D. 14, 
 
 j^aJV.5. Bid, 
 
 Lctt.i$.in C*», 
 
 Mif 
 
 a,' ‘ y \ - 
 
 Conjid .3. 
 Num, i. 
 
 b Omnem veri- 
 iatem inf alii bill « 
 ter decendi , c£*c, 
 Stapl. Reletl. 
 Prrf. ad LeElo- 
 rein. 
 
 C S. Ioh. 1 5 . ig. 
 
 ° S. Ioh. 14. 1 6. 
 e S.Mat.2 8,20. 
 
 f S. Mac. 16.18. 
 
 Secondly , I Confide r , Thatfince it is thus in ^ 
 tare, and in CiW// Bodies, if it be not fo in EcclefiaHicail 
 too , lomereafon muft be given why, d For that Body 
 alfo confifis of men : Thole men neither all equall in 
 their perfections of knowledge and lodgement, whe- 
 ther acquired by Induftry, or rooted in Nature, or tnfu- 
 fed by God. Not all equall, nor any one of them per- 
 fect, and ablolute, or freed from paflion and humane 
 infirmities. Nor doth their meeting together make 
 them Infallible in all things, though the Ail which is 
 hammered out by many together, muft in reafon be 
 perfeCter, then that which is but the Child of one 
 mans fufficiency. If then a Generali Councell have no 
 ground of Not erring from the Men, or the Meeting, ei- 
 ther it muft not be at all, or it muft be by fome ajs’i - 
 fiance and power upon them, when they are (o met to- 
 gether; And this, if it bee leffe then the AJsiJlance of 
 the Holy Gholl , it cannot make them iecure againft 
 Errour. 
 
 Thirdly, I Confider , That the Aftiftance of the 
 Holy Ghofi is without Errour • That’s no Queftion, 
 and as little there is , That a Corn cell hath it. But 
 the Doubt that troubles, is, Whether all afiflauce of the 
 Holy Ghojl be afforded in fuch a High manner , as to caufe 
 all the Definitions of a Qouncell in matters Fundamentall 
 in the Faith , and in remote Deductions from it , to be alike 
 infallible* Now the fiomanifts^ to prove there is b in- 
 fallible af si fiance , produce fome places of Scripture 5 
 butno one of them inferres, much leffe enforces an 
 infallibility- The Places which Stapleton there refts 
 upon, are theft : C I Mill fend you the Spirit of Truth , 
 Mich will lead you into all Truth. And/This Spirit fall 
 abide Mithyou forever. And, e Behold 1 am Mithyouto 
 the end of the world . To theft,others add , f The foun- 
 ding of the Church upon the %ocke , againft which the ga es 
 
 
 
221 
 
 3-33- • r r 
 
 of Hell frail not preVaile. And , Cbrift’s Hrrayer for 
 
 6*. Peter, * That his Faithf aide not. And Chrift’s pro- *S.Lafc.22.$s i 
 
 mife, That t Inhere tV?o or three are gathered together in ? s Mar.18. 2© 
 
 his Name, hee will bee in the midjl of them. And that 
 
 in the * AFls : It feemed good to the Holy Ghoft , and 
 
 to us. 
 
 For the firfl, which is, Leading into all truth, and Num, 2. 
 that forever. 3 Ml, is not alwaies univerfally taken in ? pr ° r P* 
 Scripture. Nor is it h;refimplyfor All Truth: For c fff$ e,lt%L ' l ' c ' 
 then a Generali Councell could no more erre in matter 
 of Faff, then in matte of Faith • in 
 
 whirh ver b vour fplvp<; ar^nf it rmv 1 Bellarm.i.^? Conc.c. S. § . Refpondeo, 
 v\ nicn )et yourjei ves grant it may q U1 dam. where he faith ,vbi gu&fHo eft 
 
 erre. But into M C Truth , i S a li m i- & FaUo.non delure, &c. In ejufmodi fuck- 
 ted All: Into all Truth Mlutsly ne- I" t 
 
 . 1 1 • 1 VHbiHm eft an illud docebit omnia, 
 
 cejjary to 0 alvation: And this, when S. lob. 14. 26. referendum fit ad illud , , 
 
 they luffer themfelves to be led by Q“ xcun q“ e djxivobis : *uafi no* aiMd 
 
 the Blefled Spine, by the Word of ejuodipfe anted doemfet, non repugnaboft 
 God. And all T ruth which Chrift u f? €ltt mer P ret « ri >&c a Maidonat* 
 
 had before (at leaft fundajnentally) ™ • 0 ' l *' 
 delivered unto them, d He frail receive of mine , and d s. io^. 16.14. 
 Jhe it unto you. And againe , e He frail teach you all * S * Ioh ‘ ' 26 ' 
 things* and bring all things to your Remembrance, Vohich I 
 have told you. And for this neccflary Truth too, the 
 Apoftles received this Promiie, not for themfelves, and 
 a Councdl, but for themfelves a, Me ( Bellarm< 2 . * Cm _ C9% Alteram . 
 f Whole Catholike Church • OI which Afsiftentia Sp. Santti non eft proptet 
 a Councell, be it never fo generall, is ConctL fi^mverfam Ecciefiam. 
 
 a very little part. Y ea, and this very Afsiflance is not Fo 
 ab(olute,nor in t at manner to the T Me Church, as it 
 was to the jfpcTl either doth Chrift in that place 
 
 ■ bui of His Apoftles F reach- 
 
 fpeakc dire&ly 
 ing, and DoClrim 
 
 As for ( 7 ; em m 
 
 Vtorldi the Fat is t 
 
 of the Ancient Church , wc may underiu^ . 
 
 end of the N 
 the 
 
 
 m 
 
 
1]Z 
 
 a S. Aug.Tr.^c.in S.Ioh. Iddcr. i. Sent. cap. 14. 
 b S. Hilar, in Pfa/m. 124. iuilin. Martyr. ‘Dial, cum 
 \ Triphone . Proip. Episl.ai Demetriadem. 
 c S. Hilar, in Pfal. 1 24. Profper. Lib. 2. deVoc. Gent. cap. 
 2. Leo *SVr???. 2.^ Referred. Dorn. cap. 3, Jlidor. 
 Iof. c. 12. 
 
 $ 
 
 in a 31 a je fly, in b ‘T 0 ^- 
 
 <?r 3 in c4> ! ^ and 1 Afii- 
 ftanceyL gainftthe Diffi- 
 culties they fiiould find 
 for preaching Chrifi; 
 which is the native fenfe , as I take it. And this Pro- 
 mife was madeto iupporttheir weakenefle. As for 
 his Prefence, in teaching l ' th~ Holy Glofl , 4 r men 
 tion it; and no one lem which doth, fpeakes of 
 any Infallible Aft 1 fiance , farther then the fucceeding 
 Church keepes to the Word of the Hpofllcs, as the 3po flics 
 kept to the Guidance of the Spirit. Befides , the 
 
 c Fathers re ferre their 
 
 « S. Hilar, in Pfal. 124. S. Cyril. L. 7. Dial, de Trin. 
 
 S. Aug. 6. de Gen ad Lit. c. 8. S. Leo Serm. 10. de Nat. 
 
 Dom. c.$. Ifid. in Jof. c. 12. In ail which places, Vobif- 
 cum is either interpreted cum feis 3 cr EideLibm , or J Vni- 
 Z’crja Ecclefid. ' . 
 
 d S. Cyril, lib.'j. 
 Dial, de Dr in. 
 Profper .Epift. 
 ad Demetna- 
 dem. 
 
 Speech to the Church 
 c Vniycrfall } not to any 
 Couu ce If or R i prefenta - 
 thseBody. And -31 a ldo< 
 
 N u m. 4 . 
 
 ? 1. Cor. 5. 11. 
 h Eph.2.20. 
 
 f Hoc colltgl ur feed ejuiritur non (juid collijritur, fed quid fiate Z&ds ThattlilS Mil 
 diccre^voluit, MALin S. dldar.iS, , . J 
 
 prejence by teaching or 
 maybe a CoUeHion from the place y butts not the Intention 
 of Chrifl. ' \ 
 
 For the Rccke upon Sc Inch the Qhurch is founded 3 
 which is the next r Place y we dare not lay any other 
 Foundation , then % Chrifl: Chrifl laid his h 3poflles, 
 noqueftion, but upon Himfelfe. With thefe S/P eter 
 was laid, no man queftions, and in prime place of Or- 
 der (would his claiming Succeffours be content with 
 thap) as appeared, and diverfe Fathers witnefle, by his 
 Particular defighement, Tu es Petr us ,* But yet the 
 Qfocke even there fpoken of, is not S. Peters Terfon , ei- 
 ther onely, or properly, but the Faith which he profef- 
 
 i S. T gnat ius Ep. ad DhiDdelfe. £ui fuamfirmavit Sc- And to this . be, 
 
 clefiam feper Petrrm^dificatione [pirituali. S . Hilar 1.6. 
 deTrin. Super banc igitur C enfefsion-s c Petram Scclefu 
 adifi atioefi. Et paulo pofh H&c Fid s Ecclefia fun- 
 dament um cjl, S. Greg. Nyff. de T rin, adverfet Judaos. 
 
 fides the Evidence 
 which is in Text 
 
 and Truth 9 the 1 Fathers 
 
 come 
 
COme in witll vcrv full Super hanc Fetram ddificabo Ecclefiam meam , fuper 
 C A l i • ' t'L Confejfonem videlicet ChriHi. S. Hid. Pelui.Epift. /.I. 
 content. And this, Lmt Eplft. 235. V t hac rat tone certam omnibus Confefsionem 
 
 the Gates of HeR jhall traderet , quam ab to infpiratus Petrus tanquam Baftn^ac 
 , *7 • n • F undamentum lecit fuper quod Pominus Ecclefiam (uam 
 
 not preyade againjt it, exmxit s.fwIAf dcTrU.L.y pJ»m,pn, r 
 
 is not fpoken of the per nqnominationem,ali ud nihil qudm inconcufam da fir- 
 
 Not errinz of the Church ch f 
 
 \ cb J ^ fit tt a fundata , dr firmata ejjet } ut non laberetur^ dc . 
 
 principally 5 bi or . 2? .Theodor. in font. Petr Am appellat fidei pietatem,verF 
 
 Hot a falling away of Ut ** pwft&onem, Cfc. St fuper hanc Petr am adificabo 
 c ' 1 'r Ecclefiam meam. S.Gvcg.Ep.l.3. Ep.$$, Jn vera fide 
 
 it trom the t OU Hdd- perfiftite^dr vitam vc fir Am in Petram Ecclefia, hoc eft y in 
 
 tiott. Now a, Church Gotfefsione B. Petri Apoftolorum Principle folidate . Tiie- 
 j j ophyIa£L in Matt h .16. Super cum adificavit Ecclefiam T 
 
 may erre , tind dan^e-* quia e»im conf fjfus erat } drc. quod hac Confefsio funda- 
 
 roufly too and yer not mentumerit, &c. S. Aug. in i.Ep. S, lob. tract. io. fluid 
 
 r 11 k _ ’ 1 ^ r< % *&, fuper hanc ‘Petram} S uper hanc Fidem , fuper id quod 
 
 tall from the Founds m „ m ^ Tues>& c. S; Bar. Seieuc. Orat.2 5 . Hanc 
 tion ? specially if that C 911 f e f s * 0 Mm c Hmnominajfct ChrijhuPetram, Petr urn 
 
 of b Bcilarmine be true ” HncH ? at eum V* frimnw illam eft confejfus 3 donans iUi 
 ~ ) hanc appellationem tanquam infigne y & monument um hu- 
 
 ll? at there are tnany jus confefsionis.H<ec enim eft reverb. Piet at is P etc a fixe pi- 
 th hwc pVpn Ap fiAp bafts , dre . S . Iacob.Liturg. lm ttjv Tit??*? *»W, 
 
 ’ j>. i6.de. And fome which joyne the Perfon of S.Pe- 
 Gj the Faith } Ibhicb yet t er, 'ptohtte ’xt is propter roburconfefsienis. Iuftin. Mart. 
 
 ■are not neceflarx to Sal - ‘Fial.cumTry h.S.Ghryfo&.Hom.l.inPfal.io.S.Amb. 
 
 D J-L j L, 1 o. in S. Luc.c . 24. And S . Greg, gives it for a Rule n 
 
 Patton, .DeildeSj even when Petra m ;ad in the lingular number ( and fo it is 
 
 here asaine, the Pro- here) Chri^useB, Chriftisfignified. 
 
 A • n 1 | * Non deficit. S. BQtn.Ser.jp. in (ft ant. And Bcilarmine 
 
 iruie Ot this aDle himfelfe going to prove Ecclefiam non pojfe deficere^ be- 
 
 edification, is U the gins with this very place of Scripture. L. q.de £ccl. c .\%. 
 
 Church not ^ cl bZ -3.deEccl.c. 1 4. §. Qginto/i efier. Malta (mtde 
 ' y J _ Eide^ qua non funt abfolute necejfaria ad faint cm. 
 
 CouncelL atleaftnt ar- 
 
 thertheh a'Counct builds, as a Church/ is built^ that 
 is, . fon QhriH. 
 
 he next Hac, s Chrijfs Tray^r for S. Veters Num, 5, 
 Fait, The native nfe of which Tlace is , That 
 Chrifi ' :yed 3 ando lined for S. Feter ferfeVerance 
 in thence of Gocf ainft the ftrong temptation, 
 which was to winn & him above the reft. But 
 to conclude an Inf at bility hence in the Tope , ot 
 in his CL re , or ii the Fftmane Sea , or in a 
 Generali Con, cell , thou h the fope bee .President, I 
 
 Hh 
 
 finds 
 
Font. cap. 3 , 
 
 H.2^.2.^.3. 
 Probat enim ex 
 
 finde no one Ancient Father chat dare adventure it. 
 And a Bdlarmins himfelfe, befides fome Popes, in 
 their owne Caufe (and that in Epiflles counterfeit, 
 or falfely alledged ) hath not a Father to name for this 
 fenfe of the Place , till he comedowne to Chryfolo - 
 gut , Theophylatt , and S. Bernard : of which Chry- 
 fologus his fpeech is but a fkfli of % ketoricke , and 
 the other two are men of yefterday, compared with 
 Antiquity , and lived when (it was Gods great grace, 
 and learned mens wonder) the corruption of the time, 
 had not made them corrupter then they are. And 
 b Thomas is refolute, That what is meant here beyond 
 %7efaVnlte7- ^ eters Perfon, is referred to the whole Church . And 
 
 faiu non pojfede. the Qlojfe upon the Canon Law is more peremptoric 
 ^CauG then he, even to the V email, that it is c meant of the Pope, 
 c. * A Re iu7 And if this Place warrant not the Popes Faith, where 
 No» de Papa , is the Infallibility of the Comcell that in your Do&rine 
 
 e\taa Papa poteft 1 1 . , 
 
 errare. depends upon It ? 
 
 Nqm, 6. The next Place is Bellamines choice one, 8c his fir ft, 
 
 a t-*. . . r n . and he fayes ’tis a d proper place for 
 
 Tejitmoma proprta funttrta. Prtmunf r J. T r n 
 
 eft Matth. 18. & c . Bellar. L.< 2 de Con - Proore or the Infallibility or Generali 
 4 . Saicuntri, firmtM cm- Councels. This Place is Chrifts 
 
 ciliortim proprie non innititnr his verbis. _ . r r 
 
 Stapl. Rtua. Gmtroverf. 6. ? 4 . a.a, ad Promiie. Where tm or three arega- 
 4 “'". Loom hie non debet hue propne«- thered together in my name, there am J 
 
 » th * mid A °f e S. Mat. 18. 
 
 e s. Mat.18. 19.20. And he tcls us, The flrength of the 
 
 '*** Argument atione aMinori ad Argument it HOt taken from theft 
 
 S.4. Et Stapl. Reieft. <5. <j- 3- words alone , hut as they are continued 
 , .. . with the former, and f that the Area- 
 
 • o t duo vel tres conqrepAtt in nomtne meo ^ x .. . , _ . 
 
 obtinent femper quod petmt d Deo . & e. MM* * draWne a MlllOri ad MajUS, 
 
 Bellar. ibid. § j . f r0 m the leffeto the Greater . Thus %Jf 
 
 two or three gathered together in my Name fioaTtoaies ob- 
 tains that which they aske at (fod's hands , to wit, wifdome 
 and knowledge of thofe things which are neceffary for 
 them: How much more [hall all the i flops gathered 
 
 together 
 

 §■ 
 
 together ( in a Councell ) ah ales obtains wifdome and 
 knowledge to fudge thofe things > which belong to the Dire - 
 Sion of the whole Church ? I anfwer • Fir ft, ’tis moll: 
 true, that here is little flrength in thcfe words alone. 
 
 For 5 though the Fathers make different interpretati- *s.Chry {.Horn, 
 ons of this Place of Scripture, yet % moft of them 6i.i* s.Mat. 
 a^rce in this. That this Place is to be underflood of f 8 f s 
 Ccnfent in Trayer. And this is rnanifeft enough in the &vdmtat»coU 
 Text it lelfe Secondly , I think there is as little flrength jfcoph 
 
 in them by the Argument drawne A Minor i ad cMajus. i %. 
 
 And that 1 prove two wayes. Fir ft , becaufe though s * Cypnan.Z. 4 ." 
 
 that Argument hold in Natural! , and Nectffary Things : s%lhr. in 
 yet I doubt it holds not either in Voluntary , or Promifed iS. 
 things , or things which depend upon their Inftitution. 
 
 For he that Promif esthete fie, dothnot hereby promife 
 ihe greater ■, and he which will doe the Lefte , will 
 not alwaies doe the greater. Secondly , becaufe this 
 ^Argument from the Lefte to the greater , can never fol- 
 low, but where, and lofarre as the thing upon which 
 the Argument is founded, agrees to the lefle. For if it 
 do not al wayes agree to the lefle, it cannot Neceflarily 
 pafle from thence to the greater- Now that upon 
 which this Argument is grounded here , is infallible 
 hearing , and granting the Tracers of two or three 
 met together in the Name of Clrlft. But this InfaUT 
 bility is not alwaies found in this Lefle Congrega- 
 tion. wheretwoor three are gathered together. For 
 they often meet, and pray, yetob- 
 
 taine not becaufe there are diyerfe t Quomodo igitur* Patre emtta non 
 
 other Conditions necejfarily required no mi P etra»di7&c. s.chrybiiHcL. 
 fas S. Chryfoftome f obferves^to make in S Aiatth. 18. Et Bellar. ipfe . Si con - 
 
 hard fgiggS&Sgt 
 
 beilde thei gathering together in enimomnes Harefes, & Sckifmrta con - 
 
 the Name Chrift. And therefore 
 
 J , . L.^.de OSCotu Scclefue. c. 2. S.Tertws 
 
 it is no' trended to a greater non. 
 
 H h 2 Congregation 9 
 
i]6 
 
 §. 33, 
 
 le cl. Controv . 6 .q.^. A. 4. 
 
 Sea nec illi fempcr ad Drum refpiciunt 
 qssi in medio eorum eft. Nee Dens fie ad- 
 ejt iu qui refpiciunt ad Ipfum, ut omnem 
 veritatem doccat in Inftanti & omni tem- 
 pore fimuL e^r.Iunius in Bellar. L. 2* 
 de Concil. c. 2 t 
 
 Congregation , or Councell , unleffe the fame Conditions be 
 ftill obferved. Neither doth Chrifts Promife, Ero m 
 Medio ,1 will be in the midft of them, inferre,That they, 
 the greater, or the Lefie, three, or three hundred have 
 . C rn-n. jr' j- r all, even a neceflary things infallibly 
 
 St ft (hrtjtus adfit tn medio tahum, non - . J 0 . J 
 
 adr/ftamenad omnem effeSlum, nut ad granted UntO them, aS Olt as they 
 
 hunc qm eft iudicare defide. Staple. Ke- aske,if they aske not, as well as they 
 
 ought, as i \>bat they ought. And yet 
 mofttrueit is, that where more or 
 fester are gathered together in the 
 Name of Chrifl:, there is he in the 
 midftofthem,butto afiift,and to 
 grant whatfoever he (hall find fit for them, not Infal- 
 libly whatCocvct they fhall thinke fit to aske for them- 
 felves. And therefore S. Cyprian , though he ufe this 
 b si duo Vnani- very Argument A minori ad majus^ from the lefle to the 
 mes tantnm pof. greater, yet he prefumes not toExtend it as®e//#mdoth, 
 nJAmirndL to the obtaining of Infallibility ■ but only ufeth it in the 
 omnes effet? s. Generali way, in which there neither is, nor can be 
 Cypr.X.4.^/. j ou bt of the truth of k.Thus. b If Wo that are of one minde 
 * to GodWard , can doe fo much^hat might be done } if there 'i Vere 
 
 Vnanmiity among all Clmfiians ? V n- 
 doubtedly more,, but not All whatfo- 
 ever they fhould aske, unlefie all 
 other Requifites were prefent. 
 Thirdly, in this their owne c Great 
 Champions difagree from 'Bellarmine , 
 or he from them. For Girgory de V a - 
 lentia and Stapleton tell us. That this 
 place doth not belong properly to proye an 
 Infallible Certainty of any fentence in 
 irhich more agree in the Name of C hr ill 
 
 Hut to the efficacy of Confentfor obtaining 
 
 delium unanimi Congregations. Nccjtfi ^ ^ mm flail pray for ill theName 
 &c. Staple. %elett.Contr. 6 .q.i < i A. 4. ini 7 r 1 • 
 
 * ' of Cbrtfi, f at leafl that he for their 
 
 c 2 {on ad Infallibilem eertitudinem ali- 
 euj us Sentential quam p lures inNomine 
 Chrifticonfentiunt, locus hie Evangelii 
 proprie accomodari debet, fed ad effcaci- 
 amconfenftonis plurium ad id impetran- 
 dum , quod unanimiter inChrifli Nomine 
 petunt, p id quidem ad eorum falutem 
 expedtat. Seeds enim non modo ex illo 
 loco probabitur &c, Greg, de Valen. To. 
 5. in Thom . Difput. I . J-P. I . Pun Ho. 7. 
 § . 45 . And although Stapleton approves 
 this Argument d Minori adCAFajux, yec 
 wuhall he fayes. Firmitas Concilio- 
 rum illis Chrijli verbis proprie non inni- 
 titur\ ggiuanec Chrijlus ibide Cone Hi is 
 Epifcoporum loquitur , fed de qudvis Ft- 
 
s.* 
 
 * ' i t r 
 
 joules health. For els you may proVe out of this Tlace , That not 
 only the Definition of a Generali Councell but .yen of a TroYm- 
 cialf my of two or three Tnfbips gathered together is Valid } and 
 that without the Topes AJent. 
 
 The lafl Tlace mentioned for the Infallibility of _ 
 
 Generali Councells is that. Adis, 15. where the Apoflles fay Act, 15.28. 
 of themfehes and the Co r ell held by them : It feemesgood 
 to the Wy Ghofl ^and to Vs. And They might well fay it.For 
 They had Infallibly the Afsiftanceof the Holy Ghofl, and 
 they kept clofe to hrs Direction. But I do not finde, that 
 any Generali Councell fince, though they did implore (as 
 they ought) the Afsiftanceof that Blejfed Spirit, did ever, 
 take upon them to fay in terminis, in exprellc termes of 
 their Defimtions’Vfum eft Spirkui Sanffo, & Nobis. It feemed 
 good to the Holy Ghoft, and to Vs. Acknowledging 
 even thereby (as I conceive) a great deale of Difference 
 in the Certainty of thofe things, which a Generali 
 Councell at after Determined in the Church; and 
 thofe which were fetled by the^po/?fa,whenThey late 
 in Councell. But though I do not finde 3 ThatThey u(ed 
 this fpeech pun&ually,andm termes yet the Fathers pwhen 
 They met in Councell were Confident, and (pake it out. 
 
 That They had Afsiftance from the Holy Ghofl ; yet lb, 
 as that They neither tooke Themjelyes^ nor the Coun- 
 cells T hey fate in , as Infallibly Guided by the Holy 
 Ghofl , as the Apoflles were. And Valentia is very right , 
 a That though the Councell fay they arega- ■ _ , . 
 
 thered together in the. Holy Ghofl, yet the 
 
 lathers are neither Arrogant , in ufing Ant infallibiliter defniunt. Refpondet 
 that. And this is true, whether the 
 
 Tope approve, 0 !' difapprovetheirS^wfio/ij.Though Va^ b ?**»>**** en- 
 lentia will not admit that. The Tope muft be(with him) 
 infallible,whatevercomeofit. Now though this be Cllti Staple. 
 but an Example, Sc include no Precept, yet both b Stapleton 
 
 Hh ] anj 
 
 
a St Beliarm. dicit Locum hunc e(Je ter* 
 Hum e Propriis t L t 2 *de ConcU. c.2. §. 
 Tertius Locus. 
 
 k ConcUiorum Deer eta Cunt Spirit us San- 
 Ui Oracula. ScapL ibid, Sententia Or - 
 tkodoxa,prtma, 
 
 e Si illud Concilium ex quo for mam accc- 
 perunt omnia alia (oncilia afferit De- 
 er eta fua ejfe Decreta Sp.Santli , certe 
 idem ajferere pojfunt c&tera legitima Con - 
 cilia.&c. Bclhr.ibid. 
 
 §* 
 
 and v Bellarmine make this Place a 
 proper Proofe of the Infallibility of 
 Generali Councels. And b Stapleton 
 layes the Decrees of Councels are 
 
 4 
 
 the <very Oracles of the Holy Ghoft , 
 which is little fhort of Blaiphemy. 
 and - * mine addes, that, Be- 
 
 caufe all other Councels borrowed their 
 forme from this y therefore other law full 
 Councels may af fir me alfo, That their 
 [ Decrees are the Decrees of the Holy Ghojl . Little conllder- 
 ing therewhile, That it is one thing to borrow the 
 Forme ^ and another thing to borrow the Certainty, and 
 the Infallibility of a Councell For fuppofe that After- 
 
 Councels did follow the Form of thatfirji Councelcxad. 
 ly in all Circumftances, yet, I hope, no advifrd man 
 will fay 5 Xhere is thehk ^Infallibility in ocher Councels , 
 where no man fate that was Inf fired, as was in this , 
 where all,that fate as Judges, were Infpired. Or if any 
 lejuite will be fo bold as to lay if, he had need bring 
 ■, -v- very Good Proofe for it, and far 
 
 ^Vide quam prudent er agut,nonpracipitat / * 
 
 ’ 1 ' better then any is brought yet. 
 
 Now that all Councels are notfo 
 Infallible as was this of the A pottles, 
 nor the Caufes handled in theip,as 
 there they were.is manifeltby i] 0m 
 of their owne, who tels us plainly 
 That the Abo files in their Councell delt 
 
 Y/»' 7"»’ J r I *• 
 
 nihil nobis non hcerede Plenitudine Pote - Very prudently , did not precipitate their 
 flatis. Et quomodo So San tl us ejufmodi J Uc h emen t^ u t Wd’lf hed all things . For in 
 
 1 Matters of taithj and which touch the 
 
 Confciencejt is not enough to /^,Volumus & Mandamus, 
 Wc Will and Command . And thus theApoflles met together 
 in fimplkity anafinfenefjc, feehingnoth ng bntGod>and the 
 Salvation of men. And vhat bonder if the Holy Ghojl Vo ere 
 
 prefent 
 
 Scntentia. fedftngula expcndunt,}n rebus 
 enim Fidel &qua confcie m id tanguntgion 
 f A tis eft dicer e,V olumns Mandamus. 
 igitver quomodo Conveniunt Apoftoli, [im- 
 plicit er Convenittnt , nihil nlfi Deumqua- 
 runt y & aliorum falutem expetmt &c, 
 Jpuidigitur mirum ft in hoc Concilio fu- 
 ent Spiritus Santtus ? &c. N»s aliter 
 Convenimus , nempe cum magnd pomps , 
 nosq; ipfos qmrimus ,atq- t nobispollicemur 
 
§-& 239 
 
 j preft mt in f uch a Councell ? Nos alitcr. But Hue meet other- 
 wife y in great pompe, and feeke our j elves , and promije our 
 felves that Tbe may doe any thing out of the Plenitude of our 
 power , Andhow can the Holy Ghojl allow of fuel? meetings ? 
 
 And if not allow • or aphrooye the Meetings jhen certainly 
 not concurre to mak ry thing Infallible, that (hall 
 be concluded in them. 
 
 And for all the Places together waigh them with Num. 8. 
 indifferency, and cither they fpeake of the Qhurch (in- 
 cluding the Apoftlcs ) as all of them doe 5 And then 
 All grant the TJoyce of the Church is Gods Voyce , 
 
 Diyme and Infallible. Or elfe they are Generali unli- 
 mited, and applyable to private njfemblies as well 
 as Generali Councils , which none grant to be lnfal~ 
 likle , but (ome mad EnthuftaHs: Orels they are limit- 
 ed,not fimply into All truth 3 but All necefjary to fahati - 
 on ; in which I (hall eafily grant a Generali Councell can- 
 not erre, fuffering it lelfe to be led by this Spirit of 
 Truth in the Scriptu e, and not taking upon it to lead 
 both thcScripture and. the Spirit . For Suppofc thefc 
 Places or any other , did promife Ajsiflance even to 
 Infallibility, yet they granted it not to every Generali 
 Councell \ but to the Catkclike Body of the Church it /elfe 5 
 and if it be in the whole Church principally , then is it 
 in a Generali Conned f but by Con/equmt • as the 
 Councell reprefems the Whole. And that which be- 
 longs to a thing by confequent, doth not otherwife, 
 nor longer, belong unto it, then it confents and 
 cleaves to that, upon which it is a confequent And 
 therefore a Generali Councell hath not this Afliftance, 
 but as it keepes to the whole Church, and Spoufe of 
 Chrift whofe it is to heare His word, and determine 
 by it. And therefore if a Generali Councell wil go cut 
 of the (lurches tyay, it may eafily goe without the 
 Churches Truth. 
 
 Fourthly ? 
 
(?on[id. 4 . 
 Num.i. 
 
 f S, Mat, 1^48. 
 
 * Ecclefta ¥ni~ 
 •verfalis fide ha - 
 bet indefieEUbdem 
 Cfrc •T'fon cjuidem 
 in Generali Sjno- 
 do eongregata , 
 tjuam alicjuoties 
 err a fie percept- 
 mtf.&c. Wald. 
 L. i.FOotl. Fid . 
 Ar.'i.c.ip. §.i, 
 §.38.^4. 
 
 ®Aug. Z. 1. de 
 BaptsontrdDom 
 mt,c ^.3* 
 
 ^Ipfacj- Vlenaria 
 f<tpe prior a a p 0 . 
 fierioribm erven* 
 dan. 
 
 S-3* 
 
 Fourthly , I Qonfider t That All agree. That the 
 Church in Generali can never erre from the Ezir/; «e- 
 c^ry to Salvation ; No P erf edition, no Temptation, no 
 t 0/^ Hell ( whatfoever is meant by them ) can 
 
 cvcrfo prcvaileagainft it. For all the Members of the 
 Militant Church cannot erre, either in the whole Faith J 
 or in any Article cf it • it is impoflible. For if all might 
 fo erre, there could be no union betweene them, as 
 Members, and Chrift the Head : And no Vnion be- 
 tweene Head and Members, no Body, andfono 
 Church, which cannot be. But there is not the like 
 confent,That * Generali Councils cannot erre. Audit 
 feemes ftrange to me, the Fathers having to doe with 
 fo many Hereticks, andfo many of them oppofing 
 Church Authority, that in the condemnation ofthoic 
 Hereticks, this Propofidoiijeven in termes ( A Generali 
 (founcell cannot erre) (hould not be found in any one of 
 them,that l ean yet fee. Now fuppofe it were true, 
 That no Generali Councell had erred in any matter of 
 moment to this day , which will not be found true 5 
 yet this would not have followed, that it is therefore 
 infallible, and cannot erre.Ihavc no time to defeend into 
 Particulars,therefore to the Generali ftill S.AuguJline 3 
 puts a Difference bet ween e the pules of Scripture, and 
 the Definitions of men 5 This Difference is 5 pr&pomtur 
 Scriptura , That the Scripture hath the Prerogative, 
 That "Prerogative is , That whatfotVer is founder itten in 
 Scripture , may neither be doubted , nor difputcd, whether it be 
 true , or right. Prut the Letters of Biflrops may not only be dif 
 puted , but cor re Eled by Pijhops that are more learned and 
 Tt>i[e then they, or by Tfationall Councels*, and Tfationall Court* 
 cels hy Plenary or Generali : And even b Plenary Qouncels 
 themf elves may be amended , the former by the later. It 
 feemes it was no newes with S .Muguftine, that a Gene* 
 raUCouncell might erre, and therefore inferiour to the 
 
 Scripture? 
 
t 1 
 
 
 $• 33 - 
 
 jS^I 
 
 Scripture , which may neither be doubted, nor difpuC- ■ v°xtccUji*tA 
 ed,whereit ajjirmes. Andifitbefo with the Vcfiniti- 7j£ccm*77&L 
 on of a Councell too (as * Stapleton Would ha\tit)That wan fecks doca„ 
 that may neither be doubted, nor difputed; Where is 
 then the Scriptures Prerogative? 
 
 I know there is much {Lifting about this Place 5 but N u m . 2 , 
 it cannot be wraftled off hStapleton iayes firft, That So, V fc _ <r)c %cguhs 
 guftine fpeaks of the pules of Manners, and DifciplineiA nd fjfff 
 this is Bellarmines laft (hift. Both are out, and Bellamine Con t 6^.^. 
 in a Contradiction’. 'Bellarminein a Contradiction: For 
 firft he telsus , Generali Cmicels cannot erre in c (precepts of oLrincip*^* 
 Manners • and then, to turne off Saint Auguftine in this 
 Place, hee telsus, That if Saint Auguftine doth not 
 fpeake of matter of Fads, butofl^rgk, andof^mVo^ ^ib.r^J.Po* 
 fall §juf ft ms of (fight , then he is tobeunderftood d of td * cci * m * 
 Precepts of Manners , not of Points of Faith. Where he 
 hath firft runne himfelfe upon a Contradi&ion • and 
 then we have gained this ground upon him. That 
 either his Anfwer is nothing ; or els againft his owne 
 ftate of tl\e Queftion, A Generali Councell can erre in Pre* 
 tepts of Manners . So belike when Bellarmine is at a fihife . 
 
 A Generali Counccll can , and cannot erre in Precept 
 of Manners. And Both are out : For the whole Di* 
 fpute of Saint Auguftine , is againft the Errour of Saint 
 rian, followed by the DonatiSts , which was an Er- 
 rour in Faith; Namely , That true Baptfme could noth 
 given by Pier sticks, and fuch as 'there out of the Church And 
 theProofe which Stapleton and ^ Bellarmine draw out of 
 the ftibfequent words ( e When by any experiment of *£“?*£* 
 things, that VtUch Visas (hut, is opened) is too weake : For 777qmdc?af 
 experiment there is not of Fad ; nor are the words, fern*™*, *peri- 
 C ojicluJumeft^s ii it were of a Rule of Difciplinecon- tur ° 
 eluded, as Stapleton cites them ; but a farther expe- 
 riment or proofe of the Queftion in hand,- and per- 
 taining to faith which was then fhut up, and as 
 
 a 
 
 - 
 
i 
 
 1\% 
 
 
 *lb. c^.Ncbx* Saint Aiwuflin after fpeakes , * wrapped up in cloudy 
 
 Us involute . , , rf 0 ' A * 4 x 
 
 darknejje 0 
 
 Num. 3 .' 
 
 Ne^t Stapleton twill have k, That if Saint A- 
 guHine doe fpeake of a Caufe of 
 
 t Senfus eft , quod Concilia pofteriora prffa ? then his meaning is , that 
 
 Tmt nt £t SuJDoZtTTJn. later Generali Councels can mend, 
 
 tem.&c. Stapl. %eiett. Conn . 6. q. 3. that is } explicate more pcrfeElly that 
 4* Faith which lay hid in the feed of 
 
 indent Dottrine. He makes inftance, That about 
 the Divinity of Cbrijl , the Councell of Ephefus ex- 
 plicated the firft of Nice ; Chalcedony both of thcm ; 
 
 * Qua in re nihil Conjlance fChalcedon. And then concludes : * In all which 
 
 TomiZmdZ- thin £ s ’ nme °f ( thefe ) Councels taught that Mich T»a* 
 erroneous; An excellent Conclufion : Tl:efe Cowicels f 
 and Thefe in 9 this thing, taught no errour, and were 
 only explained : Therefore no Councell can erre in 
 any matter of Faith, Or therefore S. Augujline fpeakes 
 not of an Emendation of err our } 'but of an Explanation of 
 enfeil wheras every eye fees neither of thefe can follow. 
 Now that meant plainly y That even 
 
 a Plenary Councell might erre , and that t often{ for 
 that is his word] and that in matter of Faith, and 
 might and ought fo to be amended in a later Councell, 
 I think wii thus appeare.Firft his word is,Emendari y to 
 be amended, which properly fuppofes for error 3 and 
 faultinefle , not Explanation ; And Saint Auguflm 
 
 needed not to 2:0 to a word of fuch 
 
 N 11 M.4 
 t .Saspi. 
 
 * Not uled but either for Cerrigerc o ^ * forced fenle 5 nor fure would, ef. 
 
 Auferre ; And io S. esiugufttne ufes the . . \ n 
 
 word L'W'Cont.FaufttC.'i I .ana TSellar- pecially 111 a DllputatlOfl agaillU 
 mine though he interpret it in matter of Adverfaries.NeXt S, Au^U flints Di 
 
 Faa, pure is again ft S . Cyprian and the 
 
 mine though he interpret it m matter of Adverfaries.NeXt S . AuVU flints Dif 
 
 V w rlc 8.§ Refpond.Quseft. “ pute is againlt S. Cyprian and the 
 
 Counccll held at Carthage about 
 Baptifme by Hereticks j in which Point, that Natmall 
 Councell erred ( as now all agree) And S, Auguftines 
 Dedudion goes on : Scripture cannot be other then 
 
 right. 
 
/ 
 
 2 « 
 
 andb c* Reprehended for it, if peradventure they* erre from z ^ prehe ^ 
 the Truth , and that either by more learned Bifihops, or 'Siqxidmiisfw 
 by Provinciall fomcels . Here Reprehenfion , and that for fffffly* 
 deviation from the Truth 3 is ( I hope ) Emendation pro- 
 perly , and not Explanation onely. Then Provincial! 
 
 Councels, they mull tjee/d to Generali; And to yield 
 is not in cafe of Explariation only. Then it followes ■ 
 
 That even Plenary Councels thcmfelves may be amend- 
 ed, the former by the later; ftill retaining that which 
 went before, Ij peradventure they err ed,or made deviation 
 from the Truth. And if this be not fo , I would fainc 
 know, why in one and the fame tenour of words, in 
 one and the lame continuing argument,and deducti- 
 on of S. Augufline y Reprebendi fhould be in proper fenfe 9 
 and a njrritate deviatum in proper fenfe , and federe in 
 proper fenje , and only Emendari fhould not b c proper, 
 but (land for an Explanation ] ? If you fay the Reafon is, 
 becaufe the former words arc applyed to men , and 
 National! Councels, both which may erre, but this 
 lalt to Generali Counceis, which cannot erre ; This 
 is mofl miferable begging of the Principle, and thing in 
 
 h*Tm£^Augtiftine concludes thcre ? That the Ge- Num. 5, 
 nerall Councell preceding may be amended byGene- 
 rall Councels that follow, b When that is knowne which b gutm cognd* 
 lay bid before. Not as Stapleton would have it, lay hid as f**"y*A e • 
 in the feed of Ancient DoCtrine only , andfo needed 
 nothing but explanation ; but hid in fome darknes or 
 ambigui ty , which led the former into error,and mi- 
 ftaking, as appeares : For S. Augufline would have this 
 amendment made without Sacrilegious Pride , doubtlefle, 
 of infulting upon the former Councel,that was to be 
 amended ; and without fuelling arrogancy, fure, a gain ft 
 the weakneffe in the former Councell • and without 
 
 l i % 
 
 contention 
 
 
H4- 
 
 Nu 
 
 3j; 
 
 contention of envie , which ufes to accompany mans 
 frailty, where his, or his friends Error is to be amend- 
 ed by the later Councell - and in holy Humility, in Catbo- 
 like Peace, in ChriUian Charity, no queftion 3 that a 
 Schifme be not made to teare the Church (as here the 
 Donates did ) while one Councell goes to reforms 
 the lapfe of another y if any be. Now to what end 
 fhouldthis learned Father befo zealous in this work, 
 this higheft worke s that I know in the Church, Py* 
 tvielfring and SurVeigbing Generali Councels 5 tokeepeoff 
 Pride s and Arrogance , andE?me, and tokeepeallin 
 Humility , Peace , and Charity ; if after all this noyfe,he 
 thought later Councels might do nothing, but amend, 
 that i s^explaine the former ? 
 
 That Ihift^ which * Pellarmine addes to thefe two 
 Bellar.z. *,de of Stapleton,is pooreft of all^namely, That S.Augufline 
 C otta fc.j.§. r Re- r wake S of unla^full Councels . and it is no queftion but 
 
 fpondeo pnmo j J 7 *, , 5 , r , wf r 
 
 they may be amended , as the lecond kpbejine was at 
 Chalcedon. For this Anfwer hath no Foundation but 
 a peradventure-nordurflBe/fzr.rcftuponit And moll 
 manifeftitis,that S.Augufl.lpeaksof Councels in ge- 
 neral, that they may crre,and be amended in VoBrine 
 of Faith-, and in cafe they be not amended , that then 
 they be condemned andrejefted by the Church ,as 
 this of Ephcf us, and divers others were. And as for that 
 mcere Trick, of the I'Topes InftruBion, Approbation, or 
 Confirmation , to preferve it from errour or rat ihe it 
 that it hath not erred,the molt ancient Church knew 
 it not. He had his Suffrage, as other great Patriarchs 
 had, and his TJote was highly elteemed, not onely for 
 his Place , but for Iforth too, as Popes were then. 
 But that the Whole Councell depended upon him, 
 and his confirmationjWas then unknowne , and I ve- 
 rily thinke at this day not Believed, by the wife and 
 Learned of his Adherents . 
 
 forth 
 
 
s 
 
 DV 
 
 Fifty , it mu ft; be confide red, l f 'a. Generali founccll 
 may erre, who fhall judge it ? S- Auguftne is at* prior a 
 a pofterioribus , Nothing fare, that is lefle then a b Gene- 
 rali Councell. Why, but this yet layes ail open to uncer- 
 tainties, and makes way fora Whirlewindof a Pri- 
 vate Spirit, to ruffle the Church. No, neither of 
 thele. Firft, all is not open to uncertainties. Y or Gene- 
 rali Councils lawfully called, and ordered, and lawful- 
 ly proceeding, are a Great and an Awfull Pfeprefentati - 
 on, and cannot erre in matters of Faith, keeping them - 
 fehes to God’s pule, and not attempting to make a New of 
 their own • and are with all fubmiflion to be obferved 
 by every Chriftian , Tvhere Scripture, or evident Demon - 
 f ration come not againfl them. Nor doth it make way for 
 the Wbirleivind of a private Spirit : For Private Spirits 
 are too giddy to reft upon Scripture , and too heady 
 and fhallow to be acquainted with Demonflrative Ar- 
 guments. And it were happy for the Church, if lhe 
 might never be troubled with Private Spirits , till they 
 brought fuch Arguments. I know this is hotly obje- 
 cted again Hooker, the d c /4 uthour cals him a e Wife 
 Proteflant , yet turnes thus upon him- If a (Jouncellmufl 
 yeeld to a Demonstrative Proofe , Who fhall Judge, whether 
 the Argument that is brought , be a Demon Jlration, or not ? 
 For every man, that will kicke againfl the ( flburch , TV ill 
 fay , the Scripture he urges , is evident , and his fleafon a 
 Demonfl ration. And what is this, but to leave all to 
 the wildenefle of a Private Spirit ? Can any in- 
 genuous man read this Paflage in Hooker , and 
 dreatne of a Private Spirit I For to the Quefti- 
 on, Who fhall judge? Hooker anfwers, as if it had 
 beene then made • t An Argument neceffary and Demon - 
 JlratiVe , is fuch (faith he) as being propofed to any man y and 
 underfood , the minde cannot chufe but inwardly a (Tent 
 unto it. So, it is not enough to thinke or lay it is 
 
 I i 2 Demonfrative 
 
 Con fl. 5 . 
 
 Num. i . 
 a Ibid. 
 
 b §. 32 N.f. 
 
 c ( 7 y r*fat.p.2p- 
 d Dialog us «i- 
 Hus, Deus & 
 Rex, 
 
 c Cordatus TV*- 
 teftans. 
 
 fpraf.p.ip. And 
 therefore A. C„ 
 is much to blame 
 after all this, to 
 talk of a pretext 
 of Teeming evi- 
 dent Scripture , 
 or Demonftrati- 
 on. As Ire doth, 
 P-59- 
 
2 4.6 
 
 . §•& 
 
 3 §,3 2.ZV#.2, 
 
 b Pr<ffat.p' 28 . 
 
 Demonftrative . The Light then of a Demonflratfat 
 Argument , is the Evidence which it felfe hath in it ielfc 
 to all that underftand it. Well ; but becaufe all un- 
 derftand it not. If a Quarrell be made, Who fhail de- 
 cide it? No Queftion, a but a Cjenerall Councdl , 
 not a Triyate Spirit : firft* in the intent of the 
 Authour j for Hooker in all that Difcourlc makes 
 the Sentence of the Councell b binding : and therefore 
 that is made Judge, not a Triyate Spirit . And 
 then for the Judge of the ^Argument , it is as plaine: 
 For if it be evident to any man, then to fo many Lear- 
 ned men as arc in a Councdl , doubtleiTe : And if they 
 cannot but a (Tent, it is hard to thinke them fo impiou5, 
 that they will define againft it. And if that which is 
 thought evident to any man, be not evident tofucha 
 graye Afiembly , it is probable ’tis no Demonftration, and 
 the producers of it, ought to reft , and not to trouble 
 the Church. 
 
 Nor is this Hooker's alone, nor is it newly thought 
 on by us. ft is a Ground in Nature , which CJrace doth 
 ever let right, never undermine. And ‘S.Auguttine 
 hath it twice in one Chapter, That S.fyprian, and 
 that Councell at Carthage , would have preiently yeef 
 ded to any one that y>ould d demon (Irate Truth t Nay, it 
 is a Rule with e him , Qonfent of Nations, ^Authority 
 confirmed ly SH iracles, and Antiquity, S. Peters Chain, 
 f ~ Mgmfi anC ^ ^ ucce fl l0n f rom ft i 'Jrtotiyes to keepe him in the 
 tTm mZifeftn Catbolike Church , muft not hold him againft Demonftrath 
 moxfiratxr,Htin on 0 f T r uth ; * Tvhich if it bee fo clear ely dtmonftra- 
 
 mn pofsit,pr<zp 0 - te( ^> that it cannot come into doubt, it is to be preferred be - 
 nenda eft omri - fore all thofe things , by yohich a man u held in the Catbolike 
 cmL'. Church. T herefore an evident Scripture t or Vemonflu- 
 lie* teneor: haft tionof Truth muft take place every w here, but where 
 auqmd. Mertif- thefe cannot be had, there muft be Submifsion to Au- 
 
 Jimn m huange- > 
 
 UoAbilc.^. thority. 
 
 And 
 
 Nu 
 
 M . 2 
 
 c 2 de Bapt.cont. 
 Don. cap . 4 . 
 d Uni verum di~ 
 centi, dr demon- 
 fir anti. 
 e Cont. Fund, 
 cap.fy 
 
§• 33 - 2 4-7 
 
 And doth not DellarminehlmFdit grant this } For Num. 3, 
 fpeaking of Councels, he delivers this Proportion , 
 
 7 hat Infeiiours may not judge , whether their Superiours 
 
 (and that in a Councell) do proceed lawfully , or not. But 
 
 then having bethought himielfe, that Inferiours at all 
 
 times, and in all Caufes, are not to be caft off, he adds 3 l. 2 de Condi. 
 
 this Exception, a T hileffe it manifeJUy appears that an c'fit ^Ccn^l? N 
 
 intolerable Errour be committed. So then, if Inch an Er- um. mfi mam - 
 
 rour be, and be manifeft, Inferiours maydotheir du- eonjlei 
 
 ty, and a Councell muft yeeld- unleffe you will ac- ErrZemlTm- 
 
 cufe Bellarmine too of leaning to a Private Spirit • for 
 
 neither doth he expreffe who fhall judge, whether the 
 
 Errour be intolerable. 
 
 This will not downe with you, but the Defini- Num. 4. 
 tion of a Generali Councell is , and muft be infallible. 
 
 Your Fellowes tell us (and you can affirme no more) 
 
 That the Voice of the Church determining in Councell, ^ Sfa pk 
 is not b Humane , but Divine. That is well; Divine , 
 then Eire Infallible ; yea, but the Propofition ftickes 
 in the throat of them that would utter it. It is not c J? 7 bid a ndih 
 Divine ftmply , but in a c manner Divine. Why but <Ji. c. too, who 
 then Pure not infallible, becaufe it may fpeak lowdeft ! iach op f nca 
 
 . t 1 . P. , . . • 1 u his mouth very 
 
 m that manner, in which it is not Divine, Nay more: wide to proove 
 The Qhurcb ( forlboth ) is an infallible Foundation of p^^ cc ; ]:0 ”j 0t: 
 Faith , d in an higher kinds then the Script un : For the Seri- church, to be of 
 pture is bat a Foundation in Teflimony , and Matter to be Dlvlne > and m- 
 belieVed • but the Church as the efficient caufe of Faith , rityfyet^hithe 
 and in fome fort the Very formal!. Is not this Blafphe- clofe is forced to 
 mie ? Doth not this knock againft all evidence of f 
 
 Truth, and his owne Grounds, that layes it ? Againft altiori gene- 
 
 all evidence of Truth : For in all Ages , all men that 
 once admitted the Scripture tobe the Word of God(as atejue adeo alt- 
 all (fhrifiians doe) doe with the fame breath grant it q*** x ?*rt*f»r+ 
 moft undoubted and infallible. But all men have 4*®^. 3/ ' 
 notfo judged of the Churches Definitions , though they 
 
 havf . 
 
I 
 
 Confid, 6 . 
 
 N 11 M. i„ 
 
 Hum,2, 
 
 ■ • • 1 • * » 
 
 have in greateft Obedience fubmitted to them. And 
 againft his owne Grounds , that fayes it : For the 
 Scripture is abjolutely , and every way Divine ■ the 
 Churches Definition is but fuo modo > in a fort, or man- 
 ner Divine. But that which is but in a fort, can never 
 be a Foundation in an Higher Degree , then that 
 which is abfolute, and every way fuch : Therefore 
 neither can the Definition of the Church be ib infal- 
 lible as the Scripture - muchleflc inaltiori genere , in a 
 higher kinde then the Scripture. But becaule, when 
 all other things faile , you flic to this , That the 
 Churches Definition in a Generali Counccll , is by 
 Inspiration , and fo Divine and infallible : My hafte 
 fhall not carrie mee from a little Conjideration of 
 that too. 
 
 Sixtlyt hen. If the Definition of a Generali Conn - 
 cell be infallible , then the infallibility of it is either 
 in the Conclufion , and in the Meanes that prove it * or in 
 the Conclufion , not the Meanes . or in the Meanes , not the 
 Conclufion. But it is infallible in none of thefe. Not 
 in the firft 3 T?>e Conclufion and the Meanes : For there are 
 diverfe Deliberations in Generali Couneels,wherc the 
 Conclufion is Catholike • but the Meanes by which they 
 prove it, not infallible. Not in the fecond, The Con- 
 clufion , and not the Meanes : For the fonclufion murt 
 follow the nature of the Dremiffes or Principles out of 
 which it is deduced ; therefore if thofe which the 
 founcell ufesbe fometimes unccrtaine,as is proved b e- 
 fore, the Conclufion cannot be infallible. Not in the 
 third , The Meanes , and not the Co?iclufion: For that can- 
 not but be true and neceiTary,if the Meanes be fo. And 
 this I am lure you will never grant,- becaufe if you 
 fhould , you rouft deny the Infallibility which you 
 feeketo eftablifli. 
 
 To this (for I confeffe the Argument is old, but 
 
 can 
 
 « 
 
$. 35 - HP 
 
 can never be worne out , nor (Infeed off) your great 
 
 Mafter a Stapleton (who is miferably hamper’d in it, ftdJrTt'X 
 
 and indeed lo are you all) anfwers, That the Jnfalli- 
 
 bility of a Councell is in the (econd 
 
 „ ~ « . . r » • r rj / 1 • i ® And herein I mult needs Commend 
 
 Courle^thaClSj IttS tftj till; bit W tbs y'ourWifdome. For you have had many 
 
 ConcluRon though it be uncertain and Popes To ignorant, groffdy ignorant, as 
 
 mub,<k 4 
 
 it. How comes this to pafle ? It IS you doe moll advifedlv make them infal- 
 a thins altogether unknowne in “«* in f ConcW«n without the 
 
 5 i r rL rim Meanes. §.3?.Nu.8. 
 
 Nature and ^irt too, fhat fallible 
 
 Principles can, either father, or mother,bcget, or bring 
 
 forth an infallible Conclnfion. 
 
 Well, that is granted in Nature , and in all Mrgu- N u m . 3. 
 mentation, that caufes Knowledge. But we fhall have 
 Reafons for it : 1 Firfl^ becaufetbe Church is difcurfiDe, « ibid. Not^l 
 and ufes the weights f and moments of Reafon in the 
 CM earns • but is Propheticall , and depends upon immedi- 
 ate Rey elation from the Spirit of (fod , in deliyering the 
 Conclnfion. It is but the making of this appeare, and 
 all Controverfie : at ail end. Well, I will not difi- 
 courfehere. To what end there is any ufe of Meanes, 
 if th cffonclufion be Propheticall , which yet is juftly 
 urged; for no r nod caufe can be affigned of it. If 
 it be Propheticall in the Conclufion ( 1 fpeake ftili 
 of the prefent Church ; for that which included the 
 Jpoftles which had the Spirit of Prophetic , and 
 immediate Rey elation , was ever Propheticke in the 
 Definition , but then that was Infallible in the Meanes 
 too) Then fit cc it delivers the Conclufion not ac- 
 cording to Nature and Art , that is, out of Princi^ 
 pies which can beare it, there muft be feme fuper - 
 natur all Authority which muft deliver this Truth: 
 
 That (fay I) muft be the Scripture. For if youflie 
 to immediate Revelation now, th zCnthufiafme muft 
 be yours* But the Scriptures, which are brought in the 
 
 Kk 
 
250 
 
 . 
 
 3 TropJxU audi- 
 tbant d Dee in - 
 teriks infpiran- 
 te. Tlio. 2. la.q. 
 5 * A,\.oa 5 • 
 
 b The jvord of the 
 Lord came unto 
 me , is common 
 in the Prophets. 
 * Stapl. ReleSl, 
 font. 4. q. 2. />. 
 
 473. 
 
 d Propheticam 
 Revelationem 
 nullo patio babe- 
 ri pojfe , vel ope 
 Nature^ el Jin- 
 dioyContra Avi» 
 cennam , asHaa- 
 *alem y Averro- 
 fw, e£r. Fran. 
 Picus.2 .Pranot, 
 
 c # 4 
 
 c 1. Cor. 12. 10. 
 f L.z Cone.c. 
 12. 
 
 $ 35 - 
 
 very Expofition of all the Primitive Church, neither 
 fay it, nor enforce it. Therefore Scripture warrants not 
 your Tropbejie in the Conclufion. And I krfow no other 
 thing,that can warrant it. If you think the Tradition of 
 the Church can , make the world beholding to you. 
 Produce any Father of the Church, that fayes, This is 
 an Vniverf ill Tradition of the Church , That her Definitions 
 in a Generali Councell are Dropheticallyand hy immediate %e- 
 VelationJPxoducc any one Father that (ayes it of his own 
 Authority, That he thinks fb : Nay, make it appeare, 
 that ever any Trophetyn that which he delivered from 
 God, as hifallible Truth, was ever difeurfive at all in the 
 Meanes. Nay, make it but probable in the ordinary 
 courfe of frophecie { and I hope, you go no higher, nor 
 will I offer at God s abfolute Power jThat that which 
 is difeurfive in the Meanes ,can be Trophetick in the Con- 
 clusion, and you fhall be my great jipollo for ever. In 
 the meane time, I have learned this from a yours, That 
 all Prophecie is by Vifiion, Injfiration, &c. And that no 
 Vifion admits Difcourfe : That all Prophecie is an Illu- 
 mination, not alwayes pre(ent,but when the Word of 
 the b Lord came to them , and that was not by Difcourfe. 
 And yet you i fay againe , That this * Trophetick Infallibili - 
 ty of the Church is not gotten without fiudy and indufiry. 
 Youfhould do well to tell us too, why God would 
 put his Church to fiudy for the Spirit of Prophecie , which 
 never any Particular Prophet was put unto. d And 
 whofoever fhall ftudy for it,fhalldoit invaine, fince 
 Prophecie is a e Gift , and can never bee an acquired 
 Habit. And there is fomewhat in it , that Bellar- 
 mine , in all his Difpute for the Authority of Gene- 
 rali Counccls, dares not come at this Ppcke. f He 
 preferres the Conclufion, and the Canon, before the 
 Acts and the Deliberations of Councels,and lb do we.* 
 but I do not remember, that ever he fpeaks out,TW the 
 
 Qondufion 
 
2J1 
 
 * <-* / , ■ )l 
 
 Concilia non 
 
 §‘V- 
 
 ~ ?■ t 
 
 .> : ' \ , . - ? ' ‘ - 
 
 Conclusion is delivered by Bropheciefir ’feVelatmiSurz he 
 founded the fhore , and found danger here. He did f^ibL) Imme- 
 found it : For a little before he (peaks plainly (would diatas T^^vcla- 
 his bad Caufe let him be conftant?) *Councels do deduce ^hDeip^rt 
 their Concluficns, . What ? from Infpiration ? No : GAut tioc'watione de- 
 out of the Word of God , and that per ratiocinationem by d f cmt C ° ncl p- 
 
 ’ - VI • I t I 1 { . fionts.WmAji 
 
 c Argumentation : Neither have they, nor do they write d* (Pencil. A.u. 
 any immediate Revelations. Ac Concllu 
 
 The fecond Reafon, why ^Stapleton will have it ^Nu m. 4. 
 Prophetickein the Conclufion, is, r Becaufe that which aStap.y^.374 
 is determined by the Church , is matter erf Faith , not of 
 Knowledge: And that therefore the Church propofngit to be 
 believed , though it ufe Meanesjet it J lands not upon ^rt, 
 ordMeanes^ or Argument , but the Revelation of the Holy 
 Ghott : Els when we embrace the Conclufion propofed , it 
 Jhould not be an ^Afent of Faith , but an Habit of Know- 
 ledge: This for the firfl part ( That the Church ufes 
 the Mcanes, but followes them not ) is all one in fub- 
 fiancc with the former Reafon. And for the later 
 part, That then our admitting the Decree of a Count- 
 ed!, would be no Afent of Faith y but an Habit of Know- 
 ledge ; what g v eat inconvenience is therc 3 if it be gran- 
 ted ? For I think it is undoubted Truth ^ That one, and 
 the fame Conclufion may be Faith to the Believer, that 
 cannot prove, and Knowledge to the Learnedjthat can. hiproMbetiiiud, 
 
 And b S.Auguftine, lam fure,in regard of one, and the ]7dctlT/Z7iU 
 fame thing, even this, the very Wifdome of the Church in e fl ? & labile, ab 
 her DoBrine,Ao ribes Vnderflanding to one fort of men, “crMu/^td* 
 and Belief e to another weaker fort. And c Thomas goes Dewonftratio- 
 
 With him. nemnon capit. 
 
 Now for further fatisfad ion, if not of you, yet of Num. 5, 
 others^this may well be thought on. Man loft by fin 
 the Integrity of his Feature , and cannot have Light 
 enough to fee the way to Heaven,but by Grace. This 
 Grace was firft merited v after given byChrifbthis (frace 
 
 Kk 1 is 
 
 b , Cent. land, c* 
 
 4 * 
 
 ‘ Tiio.^, 1 ,ej. 7, 
 tsf.2 .ad r . 2 yi- 
 
25 2 
 
 S-33- 
 
 is fitft kindled in Faith ; by which, if we agree not to 
 fome Super natur all Principles, which no Reafon can de~ 
 monflrate (imply, we can never fee our way. But this 
 Light , when it hath made Reafon fubmit it felf, cleares 
 a Lc Rationa . the Eye of Reafon, it never purs it out. In which fenfe, 
 Mu & ubique itmavbc, is that of a Optatus , That the Very Catholike 
 ^vt'hfa fide Church it [elfe is reafonable fits weR as diffufed every where, 
 valentiorcsfaffty By which b Reafon inligbtened (which is ftronger then 
 Reafon) the Church in all Ages hath becne abiCjeither 
 
 creatmtu 
 
 Zmuf Cr It on jlm to convert, or convince, or at leaft ‘ (lop the mouthes of 
 bominibus , fed ( philofophers , and the great men of Reafon, in the very 
 meZeTnoftyam Point of Faith , where it is at highcft. Tothcprefent 
 firmante & illu- occafion then. The frjl , immediate , Fundamental! 
 
 Point* °f Faith, without which there is no falvation^j 
 Jamenti.c.yi,. they cannot be proved by Reafon f fo neither need 
 
 /woriln ImM- t ^ lc 7 t> c determined by any Councell, nor ever were they 
 dita Scripture. attempted, they are foplaine fet downe in the Scrip* 
 S ' Au v L d 22 ' iure - if about th cfenfe, and true meaning of thdc, 
 9 6. m ' CA *' or neceflary deduction out of thelc Prime Articles of 
 Faith , Generali Councels determine any thing, as they 
 have done in Nice, and the reft 5 there is no inconve- 
 a Almain. 3. *1). nience, that one and the fame Canon of the Cmncei 
 1 ^ould be believed, as it reflects upon the Articles and 
 
 c. id quod \ft Grounds indemon fir able ; and d yct knowne to the 
 fcuum ah uno Learned, by the Meanes and Proofc, by which that 
 
 homme ettam tn , . J f 1t . , * . J , 
 
 fiatu vit, eft ab Deduction is vouched, and made good. And againe, 
 aho Credit am , the Qonclufion of a C ounce R , fuppofe that in Nice, 
 
 TtltZnwmZit: about the Confubflantiality of Chrift with the Father , in it 
 /d/£confidered,isindemonftrable by Reafon ; There 
 
 ' C °um iU 7ehfxit * ^ c ^ cve >and aflent in Faith : But the fame Condufi- 
 c one in fi 0 mem ex on f if you give me the Ground of Scripture , and the 
 Script urn. Bd- freed ( and Ibmcwhat muft be fuppoied in all, whe- 
 Zx if/, si * ther Faith, or Knowledge) is demonftrable by naturall 
 am- Reafon, againft any Jlrrian in the world. And if it 
 
 be demonftrable, I may know it, and have an Ha 1 it 
 
 f 
 
S' ??• 173 
 
 of it. And what inconvenience in this?For the weak- 
 er lort of Chnftians , which cannot deduce , when 
 they have the Principle granted, they arc to reft 
 upon the Definition only , and their Affcnt is meere 
 Faith : yea, and the Learned too, where there is not a 
 Dtmonfiration evident to them, aflent by Faith one ly 
 andnotby knowledge. And what inconvenience in 
 this ) Nay, the neccffity of Nature is fuch, that thefe 
 Principles once given, the underftanding of man can- 
 not reft, but it muft be thus And the t Apoftle would ^ s * Pec * 
 never have required a man to be al le t ogive a %eafon>and 
 an account of the hope that is in him , if he might not be 
 able to know his account, or have lawfull intereft 
 togiveit,whenheknew it,without prejudicing his 
 Faith by his knowledge. And fuppofe exaB knowledge 
 and meere Beliefe cannot ftand together in the lame 
 Ter [on , in regard of the fame thing , by the Jamc 
 meanes , yec that doth not make void this Truth . 
 
 For where is that exaft knowledge, or in whom, that 
 muft not meerely,in points of Faith } believe the Ar- 
 ticle ,or Ground upon which they reft? But when 
 that is once Delieved,it can demonftrate many things 
 from it. And Definitions of Councels are not Trincipia 
 Fidei , Principles of Faith, but Deductions from them. 
 
 And now becaufe you aske, Wherein are we nearer * onfid. 
 to unity by a Councell , if a Councell may erre ? Befidcs the ^ u M • 1 9 
 Anfwer given, I promifedto confider which Opinion 
 was molt agreeable with the Church, which moft 
 able to preferve, or reduce Chriftian Peace : The (2 ^ch 
 mane y Th >t a Councell cannot erre • Or the r Proteflants , 
 
 That it can And this I propolc not as a but leave 
 the Chriftian world to confider of i t,as I doe. 
 
 Firfi then i Confider , Whether in thofe Places of M 
 Scripture before mentioned, or any other, there bee 
 promifed to the prelent Church an abfolute Infallibility ? 
 
 K k 3 Or 
 
Exatld & Om 
 nimodk fnfaUi- 
 biiit ite non indi- 
 rect, fed fat is eft 
 feme l accept is. 
 &c. 
 
 * 5 + 
 
 Or whether fiichan Infallibility will not ferve the 
 r 0 nt. turners * Stapleton -after much wrigling, is forced to 
 4 .c/. •>. Notab. $ acknowledge? One not eVeryWay exalt ; beeaufeitis 
 enough 3 if the Qhurch doe diligently infifl upon that Vohich 
 was once nceiyed : and there is not need of fog eat certainty 
 to open and explicate that Vvh'tch lyes hid in the feed of Faith 
 fowne,and deduce from it;as to fukeout , a?ul teach that Vbhich 
 v>as altogether unknowne . And if this be To, then lure the 
 Church of the Apojlks required guidance by a greater 
 degree oflnfallibiliry^then the prefentQmrcb ; which 
 yet, if it follow the Scripture 3 is Infallible enough , 
 though it hath not the fame degree of Certainty 
 which the Apojlles had y and the Scripture hath. Nor 
 *L ide Con c . can l tell, what to make of Sellar mine 5 that in a whole 
 Chapter difputes five Prerogatives 3 in Certainty of 
 
 faUilTlis^lerf Truths a that the Scripture hath above a Qounctll • and at 
 tatis^tic certa lafl: Concludes That They may be faid to be equally certain 
 did poffunt, in Infallible Truth, . 
 
 N u m. 3. The next thing I Confider 7 is : . Suppofe this not Ex - 
 aft, but congruous Infallibility in the Church ; Is it not 
 refiding according to Power and Right of Authority 
 in the whole Church 3 and in a Generali Councell, on- 
 
 h Nam ft EcclefidZ Vniverfitati non eft da- ly by Power deputed j with Mafl- 
 
 taniu Author it as ; er^onec Concilio Gc- date to determine ? The Places of 
 
 ZZSZZS&ZgSZZ ScriptL-rc, wich Expolitionsof che 
 
 § . Qnpd fi Ecciefi*. Fathers upon thcrrijinakeme apt to 
 
 t Petrus perfotlAm Ecclefi* Catholic* fi,. fc,elieVC this. S .<PtteT (faith S. Au?U- 
 Jr wet, e> huic data, junt claves , quum , ' <=> 
 
 Petrodau.VeAgon.chr.e. 30. ’ jhne\ ) didnot receive the \eyes of the 
 
 Qhurch 3 but as Juflaining the Terf m of 
 the Church. Now for this Particular, fuppofe the Ffey of 
 DoBrins be to let in Truth t and fhut out Error • and fup- 
 pofe the F\ey rightly ufed, infallible in this: yet this In- 
 fallibility is primely in the Churchy in whole perfoi^ x 
 (not ftriftly, in his owne) S. Teter received the F\eyts. 
 But here Staple ton lay es crofle my way againe, and 
 1 would 
 
 1 
 
would thruft me out of this Confederation. He * grants * Rel lf ont *^ 
 that S. Peter received thefe Jfeyes indeed } and in the propter' Pr'ima- 
 p erf on of the Churchy but (faith he) that was, becaufe tumquem pere- 
 
 he was Trimate of the Church j And therefore the Church ^fetfifnaUtlr 
 received the Ifeyes finally , but S. Peter formally : that is Ecclefi* acce- 
 (if £ miftake him not ) 5. 2Wfor himfclfeand his 
 Succeflbrs received the byeyes in his owne Tight • but accept* 
 to this end , to benefit the Church , of which he was 
 made Taflor. But I keepe in my Confederation llil^and I 
 would have this confidered, whether it be ever read in 
 any C^fiicke Author , That to receive aching in the 
 Perfon of another, or fuftaining the Perfon of/ an- 
 other , is onely meant finally to receive it, that 
 is , to his good, and not in his Tight. I fhould thinks , 
 he that receives any thing in the Perfon of another, 
 receives it indeed to his good ; and to his ufe^but in his 
 right too: And that the primary and formdl right is not 
 in the receiver, but in him whofe perfon he fuftaines, 
 while he receives it. A man purchafes Land, and 
 take* poffeffionof it by an Amur - flW*»*0*m<* „/«■„» ^ 
 ney. I hope the \AttOUrney bei ng the pofsidere.Nam pofsidet, cujus nomine pof- 
 hartd to receive it Inftrumcntally, 
 
 . n 11 i r/r n y termm » L ‘^laod meo % 1 8, in Pnnc. H, 
 
 and no more, Inail take nor Vje deacquir.Poffi. celfus. 
 
 nor right from the Purchafer. A Matnmonium fit per ‘Trocu- 
 
 Man marries a Wife by a Proxy dkiofa^non. Sane hMmurm.L.x. 
 (This is not unufuall among great 
 Perfons ) But I hope he that hath the Proxy and re- 
 ceives the woman with the Ceremonies of Manage 
 in the Others Name , muft alfo leave her to be the 
 Others Wife , who gave him power to receive her for 
 him.This ftumoling blocke then is nothing : and in 
 my Confideration it ftands Bill, . That the Church in Gene- 
 rali by the huuls of toe Ap of ties and their Succejfors received 
 the fifiyes 3 and all Power fignified by them , and by 
 the affifiance of Gods Spirit may be able to ufe them, 
 
 but 
 

 zj6 
 
 s. ;j: ’ 
 
 \ Defimtione judicial l ( i. in Concilio ) 
 funt de Necefsitate Salutis credenda , fed 
 ilia duntaxat qua jic tradit concurrents 
 'Unwerfali totius Ecclefie confenfu, im- 
 plicite, Wexplicite, ver e,W interpreta- 
 tive. Gerfon. Trafd. de Declarations vc» 
 ritatum qua credenda funt &c, § • 4. par. 
 
 I.p.414. 
 
 "j* Po(sit tamcn continuer e quod quamvis 
 
 but ftill in and by the fame hands, and perhaps to 
 open , and ftiut in fome things infallibly , when the 
 [ Tope , and a Generali (founcell too ( forgetting both her ? 
 and her Rule, the Scripture ) are to leek how to turne 
 thefe Ifeyes in their Wards. 
 
 N u ui 4. The third Particular, I Conjiderfis : Suppofein the 
 whole Catholike Church Militant, an abjolute Infalli- 
 bility in the ? rime Foundations of Faith , abfolutely met ff ary 
 to Salvation ; and that this Power of not erring fo 5 is 
 * Non omnia ilia qua tradit Scclefia fub 110 1 * communicable tO a Generali CoiM-* 
 
 cell ; which reprefents it , but that 
 the Counceli is fubjedl: to errour: 
 This fuppofition doth not onely 
 preferve that w cH you defire in the 
 Churchman Infallibility Jjut ittmeets 
 w th all inconveniences^ 11 ulually 
 
 C/enerale Concilium definiret aliquid con- haVedolie, and daily do perpleXC 
 
 ft Hm r ? x r meretm j the Church And here is ftill a Re- 
 
 penculo. gfuia pojstt covtmgere quod 
 
 congregati in Concilio Generali effect medy for all thillgS. For if ^PriVatt 
 
 f«uci & ,a m in re, quim in burnt- rc f pe fi s Bandies itlaFaction , if 
 num reputatione , r ejpelru ulorum qut ad JL } . r r r -C 
 
 Mud £ oucilium Generate minime con - power , and favour of Jome parties , it 
 veniffent. Et tunc Ulorum levlter Error -^caknefie of them which have the man- 
 
 waging y if any unfit mixture of State 
 Councels yf any departure from the %uk 
 of the Word of God y if any thing dfe 
 fway and wrench the Councell i 
 
 tiibus, qua fub ft anti am ftdei concernunt, found ill tXpref't Scripture , Of de* 
 
 neccfano credendum e ft, dumVmver falls mm fl ra [\ 0n of this mifearia^e , 
 Eccleftanon reclamet. rr. Pic. Mirand. . r 1 rir 
 
 The or. 8 . hath power to reprelenther lelre 
 
 in another f Body , or Councell , and to take order for 
 what was amifle, either pratlifed , or concluded . So here 
 is a meanes without any infringing any law full Au- 
 thority of the Church, to preferVe or reduce unity, and 
 Ank.nl yet grant, asldid, and as the b Church of England 
 
 doth 3 
 
 extirparetur per multitudinem meliorum 
 & fapientierum efrfimo fiorum Mis. Gut- 
 bus etiam multitudo ftmplicium adhare- 
 ret magis &c.OchDial. P.%. 1 . 3. c. 13 . 
 * Many of thefe were potent at Arimi- 
 •num>%x\& Seleucia . 
 
 / 
 
$• Vr 
 
 257 
 
 doth.T hat a Generali Councell may erre, And this courie 
 
 the Church heretofore took-for fhe did cal, and repre- 
 
 fent herfelf ina new Councell, and define againfl: the 
 
 Heretical Conclufions of the former :as in the cafe at Ari - 
 
 minum , and the fecond of Ephefus, is evident; And in j^j T 2 ^ 
 
 other Councels named by Wellarmine.Now the Church is O^u.c, 1 6. §. 
 
 never more cunningly abufed^then when men out of Temo,Concih- 
 
 this Truth, that [he may erre^ infer this falfhood,that Jhe me * F 
 
 ix not to be Obeyed . For it will never follow , She may 
 err e, Therefore She may not Govern.For he that fayes, 
 
 Obey them'bhich have the Rule oyer you , and fubmit your 
 felyesfor they 'batch for your foules *Heb. 13 . Commands a Heb.13. >7- 
 Obedience^nd exprefly aferibes Rule to the Church. And 
 this is not only a Tailor all Power, to teach and direct, 
 but a Praetorian alfo, to Controll and Cenfurc too, 
 where Errors or Crimes are again & Points Fundamen- 
 tal!, or of great Conference. Els S.Paul would not have 
 given the Pjile for Excommunication , 1 Cor. 5. Nor Cbrifl 1 Cor. 5, 5.' 
 himfelfc have put the man that will not hearc and 
 Obey the Church into the place and condition of an 
 Ethnick and a Publican ,as he doth,S.MiM8. And Salo- 1 7’ 
 
 7110ns Rule is general!, and he hath it twice: My Son, for- 
 fake not the teachi ir inUruBion of thy Mother Now this 
 is either fpoke .d meant of a naturall Mother -And her p™ v * 1 • am * 
 
 Authority oyer QnUren is confirmed, Eccluf.$. And the (Via.s.Mifti 
 foole will bei im, that defpifeth her, Proy. 1 c : Or'cis 3.) 
 extended a 1 j our My flic all and Spirituall Mother, the 
 
 Church dfo the Geneya b Note upon the Place *F*rf*ks»otth} 
 And I cannot but incline to this Opi- 
 ufe the Bleflings which accompany this Teaching of the 
 . e Co many and great, as that they are not Church, wherun 
 
 1 £ . J- *\7 in/ the faithhill aie 
 
 die fruits of Obedience to a Jxaturall Mo- begotten by the 
 , as Salomon expreflcs them all, Proy . 6 . ^corruptible 
 
 And i ill this, heres no Exception of the Mothers 
 
 : or Mater* err ans, an erring Mother loofes Trov. 1.8. 
 
 1 1 neither ,fW -” . 
 
 expreflcs ; 
 Eiion^ F 
 Oledlen 
 like to 
 ther 01 
 
 erring. 
 
Z53 
 
 $• iv 
 
 neither the right nor the power of a Mother by her 
 aror. And I marvell what Sonne fhould fhew reve- 
 rence or Obedience, if no Mother, that hath erred, 
 might exad it. T is true, the Sonne is not to follow his 
 Mothers error? or his Mother into Error . But *tis true too, 
 ns a grievous crime in a Sonne to caft off all obedi- 
 ence to his Mother, becaufc at fome time, or in fome 
 things fhe hath fallen into error. And howfoever, this 
 Confederation mectcs with this Inconvenience, as well 
 as the reft, For fuppofe (as I faid) in the whole Catho- 
 like Militant Church, an abfolute h fallibility in the 
 prime Foundations of Faith abfolutely neceflary to 
 Salvation : And then, though the Mother Church , Pro- 
 vinciall ,or Nationall may errcjyct if the Grand-Mother , 
 the whole Vniverfall Church cannot in thefe necefla- 
 ry things, all remaincs fafe, and all Occafions of Dif 
 obedience taken from the poflibility of the Churches 
 crring,are quite taken away .Nor is this Mother lefle to 
 be valued by her Children, becaufc in fome fmallcr 
 things age had filled her face fuller of wrinkles. For 
 where *tls faid, that Chrifl makes to him f tffe a Church with - 
 Ephcf.5.27.; 'out fpot or Winkle Eph. 5. That is not underftood of the 
 
 Church Militant , but of the Church 
 Triumphant . * And to maintaine the 
 contrary, is a Branch of thefpread- 
 ing Hcrcfy of Telagiaritfmc. Nor 
 is the Church bn earth any freer 
 from wrinkles in DoHrine? and 1 )i- 
 fciplme , then flic is from Spots in 
 Life and ConVerfation. 
 
 The next thing Iconfider , is : Suppofe a Generali 
 Councell infallible in all things which are of Faith: 
 Ifit prove not fo, but that an Error in the Faith be con- 
 cluded,- the fame erring Opinion that makes it thinke 
 it felfe infallible , makes the Error of it feeme irrevocable . 
 
 And 
 
 * In id pregrediuntur (Pclagiani ) ut di- 
 cant •vitam Ixftorttm in hse feculo nullum 
 cmnino habere peccatunt, & ex bit Sc de- 
 fiant Chrifii in hac mortalitate perfidy ut 
 Jit omnino fine macula & ruga* £Juafi 
 non fit Chrifii Ecclefia^ua in toto terra- 
 rum orbe clamat ad Denm : Shmitte no- 
 bis debita nortra, &c.S. Aug. X. de Ha- 
 refibut , Har, 88. 
 
 N u m. y. 
 
 
§• 33 * 
 
 1 
 
 Q 
 
 co 
 
 1 ^ 
 
 And when Truth? which lay hid, fhall be brought to 
 light,the Church(\jvho was lull r fleepe by the opinion. 
 of Infallibility) isleftopen toa! iannerof Diftradtions, 
 asitappeares at this day. Ar hataGouncelmay errc 
 (befides al other inftances,w h are not few)appeares 
 by that Error of the Councell of ohjlance. And one Inftance * SUf. 1 3. 
 is enough to overthrow a Generally be it a Comcell. h Chrijl & ^ Matth. 2 6 \ 
 inflituted the Sacrament of his Body and Stood in both Kftndes. iCor. 11.23 , 
 To breake Chrifts hflitution , is a damnable Error, and To 
 confeffed by c Stapletonli he Councel is bold,and defines * ReturneofVn- 
 peremptorily , That to communicate in both hndesjs not necef- trHt ^ s u p°* Mr, 
 ftry } "frith a Non obftante to the Injlitution of Chrijl . Conji - iwtlf. ff 2 * Un 
 dermic with me, Is this an Error or not? d Sellarmine, , d 4 .^eEucha- 
 and Stapleton , and you too, fay "tis not • becaufe to re- riJ ' c ‘ * 
 ceive under both kinder is not by Divine Sjght. No ? 
 no Cure. For it was not Chrifts c ( Precept ) but his Ex- 
 ample. Why, but I had thought, Chrifts Injlitution of a §.viafimopra- 
 Sacrament had beene more then his Example only, and fount, 
 as binding for the Neceffaries of a Sacrament, the Mat - 
 
 ter and Fame, f as a frecept : There. , And now IateIy in a C atechifmc pri „. 
 fore fpeake out, and deny it to bee ted at Pa™, 1 5 j 7. without the Authors 
 Chrirts Inftitution , dr els grant Name, ’cis twice affirmed thus. The In. 
 
 with Stapleton , it is a damnable Error Command. Conference, 14 p. 244. And 
 togoe againjl it. If you can prove, againe, p. *<So. inftitution is a Prcc^K 
 
 that Chrifts Inftitution is not as binding to us as a 
 Precept (which you flhall never be able) take the 
 Precept with it, s Drinkeye All of this r which though you 
 fhift as you can, yet you can never make it other then 
 
 it is, A binding Drecept. But S diamine hath yet one 7 K( O&THpl* TRUTHS 
 
 d ^ | ^ ^ t • % • ir-T* y IA /• I ft T 1 #*11 Tr 
 
 better Deviie then this, to fave the Councell. He 
 faith, it is a meere Calumny, and that the Councell 
 hath no fuch thing ,• That the Non obftante hath no 
 reference to Receiving under both kjndes , but to the time of re- 
 ceiving it y after Supper ; in which the Councell faith , the 
 Cujlorne of the Church is to be obferVed ? Non obftante 
 
 L I z , ?iotVntbJlanding 
 
 2 S* Mat;th. 2 $. 
 1 Cor. 1 1 . 
 
 M i^VtlUiVOl 7 UVVV 
 
 IvTQhri i in Liturg, 
 S. Chryfoft. 
 
ido S' 
 
 nomthftanding Chrijls Example. How foule Bellmnine 
 is in this, muft appearc by the Words of the Councell, 
 . _ . ... . which are thefe. * Though Chnft in- 
 
 * Licet Cbyiflw poflCcenaminjtMtent, . . . lie 1 i 
 
 Cfr fuis Difcipulis admini Braver it fub Jtltutcd this VeilC) dblC OdC) uWlCHty and 
 
 utrdque specie Pams & Vim hoc vene- „ a y e jf } m J)ifcil)les after Supper Wider 
 
 Jfonte, non debet confici pofi Ccenam, nec " Oth kjftdes Of h) edd Wld Xrine } yet, Noil 
 recipi nifi a jejunis. (Here Be liar mine obRante, UOtwithflandlllgthis ft Ought HOt 
 
 Primitive Ecclefid Sacrament a recipe- but fnjtlllg. And llkgwife y thdt though 111 
 
 renmr fib mra^e Sped. a fidMm (/;g f rmntlVe Church tins Sacrament was 
 
 tamen htc Ccnfuetudo , ut a, Laicis \Mb 9 . i r • i r n i 1 i 
 
 Specie Fanis tantum fufeipiatur, haben - received by thejaithfuli under both kinoes- 
 
 da eft pro Lege, quam non licet reproba - t J ?[S CuRomC^that itfJjQuld be rCCClVcd 
 
 re, Et afferere hanc efe illicit am, e[t £r- . J . / / /• j rrr> r 
 
 ronettm, Et pertinaciter afferent es [pint by Lay mien only under the Ktnde oj L>i cadj 
 
 arcendi ta»q H am Htretid. Sef 13 . is to be held f or aLdSFfiVhich may not be re. 
 
 fufed.Jnd to fay fins is an wilarvfull Cuflome of Receiving under 
 one kindejs erroneous -and they which perjift in fayingfa are to he 
 punifhed^and driven out asHeretiks. N o w,where is here any 
 Hander of the Councel?The words are plaine, and the 
 Non objlante muft neceflarily(Tor ought I can yet fee) be 
 referred to both Claufes ih the words following, be- 
 caufe bothClaufes went before it,&hath as much force 
 againft Receiving under both kindes,as againft receiv- 
 ing after Supper. Yea, and the after-words of the 
 Councell couple both together, in this Reference; 
 for it followes, Et Jimiliter , And fo likeWtfejhat though in the 
 Primitive Qhurch <6 rc. And a man by the Definition of 
 this Councell, may be an Hcretike, for ftanding to 
 Chrijls Inflilution, in the very matter of the Sacrament: 
 And the Churches Law for One kinde may not be re- 
 fufed, butChriftsInftitution under Both khndes may. 
 And yet this Councell did not erre;No;take heede of it. 
 
 But your opinion is more Vnreafmble then this: for 
 confider any Body ColleBiVe y be it more, or lefte VmVerfal , 
 whenfoever it affembles it fclfe, did it ever give more 
 power to the B^prefentingBody of it,then binding power 
 
 upon 
 
 Num. 6. 
 
§• 33 - 2 # 
 
 upon all particulars, and it fetf? And did it ever give this 
 power other wife, then with this P(eferVatm in Nature , 
 
 That it would call againe and reforme, yea, and if need 
 were, abrogate any Law, or Ordinance upon juft caufe 
 made evident, that this 5 \eprejenting ! Body had failed in 
 Truft,or T rutl^ And this Power no Body C olleEliVefEc- 
 clefiafticall,or Civill can put out of it felfe,or give away 
 to a Parliament, or Counccll, or call it what you will, that 
 reprefents itl Nay, in my Confi deration it holds ftrongeft 
 in the Church. For a Councell hath power to order,?et- 
 tle, and Define differences arifen concerning Faith, 
 
 This Power the Councell hath not by any immediate In- 
 flitution from Chrift, but it was prudently taken up in 
 the Church, from the * Apoftles Example. So that to hold * A &- 1 in 
 Councells to this end • is apparent Apofiolicall Tradition 
 written : but the Power , which Councells fo held kfaatioms fin- 
 have, is from the whole Catholike Church, whofe 
 members they are, and the Churches power fromGod. c^.ioh.deiur- 
 And t this PoiVer the Church cannot farther give away to a Ge- Su ”*° 
 
 nerall Councel, then that the Decrees of it lTiall binde EtfirmitZcZ, 
 all (particulars ,and it felf y but not binde the wh oleChur cn L f iort ‘ m **t*t»r 
 from calling againe, and in the After-Calls, upon juft CoZiUisZ^le 
 caufe to order, yea, and if neede be, to abrogate former Re ^H.fimr. 6 . 
 Acts. I fay upon juft caufe. For ifthe Councel be lawfully A ' 
 
 called, and proceed orderly, and conclude according to t This is more 
 the Pule, the Scripture the whole Church cannot but ap- ,eafonaW e a 
 
 ^ ’ 11 JL i ^ r • • r- r g reat deale then 
 
 prove the Counceii, and then the Definitions or it, are that of BeiUr- 
 Binding. And thePower of the Church hath no wrong mwe > 2 .de Cone. 
 in this, fo long as no Power, but her own may meddle 
 or offer to infringe any Definition of hers made in her 
 (pyprejentative Body , a LaVofull Generali Councell And 
 certaineitis, no Po'iVer, but her owne may doe it. 
 
 No: doth this open any gap to private Spirits. For 
 allDecifionsinfuch a Councell, are binding : And 
 becau fe the Whole Church can meete no other way, the 
 
 Ll j Councel 
 
1 6 t 
 
 Num. 7. 
 ♦ • 
 
 *Bellar .L. 2 % de 
 Conciliis , c. i 6. 
 & iy- 
 
 15 Czmslib.6.de 
 ZoetSgcap. 8 . §. 
 Ec quidem iu. 
 Pontifices fum- 
 mi in CoKclufio - 
 ne err are neque- 
 unt y %ationes 
 antem.&c. 
 f Rele&.ConA. 
 q. 3 . Art. 5 . & 
 ibid. Jfhfia. ad 
 compefcendosim - 
 portunos Hcereti- 
 cos (foncilii Cje- 
 neralis r Dcfiniti$ 
 illnjirior eft &c. 
 Et vulao homi - 
 num magU fa - 
 tisfacit. &c. 
 
 * Af.de Rom, Font. 
 c .3 §. Ac contra, 
 Nam.EA- quoap* 
 paret tot am fir- 
 mitatem Conct- 
 liorum Legiti- 
 ntorum effe d 
 Pontifice , non 
 partim a Ponti- 
 fice , partim d 
 Condlio. 
 
 §• 11- 
 
 CounceU flhall remaine the Supreme , Externally Living, 
 Temporary , Ecclefiafiicall Judge of all Contt overlies. Only 
 th c whole Church 9 and (he alone hath power, when 
 Scripture or Demonfiratm is found, and peaceably ten- 
 dred to her, to reprefent her felfe againe in a new 
 Councelly and in it to order what was amifle. 
 
 Nay, your Opinion is yet more unreafonahle : For 
 you doe not only make the Definition of a Generali 
 CounceU , but the Sentence of the Tope infallible , nay more 
 infallible then it. a For any Generali Councell may 
 erre with you , if the Tope confirme it not. So be- 
 like this Infallibility refts not in the Rcprefentative 
 Body, the Councell , nor in the Whole Body, the 
 Church, but in your Head of the Church, the (Pope of 
 3{ome. Now I may aske you, to what end fuch a trouble 
 for a Generali Councell ?Or wherin are we neercr to Vnity i 
 if the Tope confirme it not? You anfwer (though not in 
 the Con ference, yet elfe where) That the Topecnes not, 
 efpecially giving Sentence in a Generali CounceU. And why efpe- 
 cdcdlyfi Doth the Deliberation of a CounceU helpe any 
 thing to the Conclufion ? Surely not in your Opinion : 
 For you hold the Conc\uCionTropheticaUy:hc}Aea.nesfaL 
 lible: and fallible Deliberations cannot advance to aPm- 
 phetik Conclufion* And juft as the Councel is in Staple- 
 tons Judgment,^ the Definition and the Troofes • fo is the 
 Dopey in the Judgment of b Melch. Cams ? and them 
 which followed him , Tropheticallin the Conclufion. The 
 Councell then is called but only in effect to heare 
 the Tope give his Sentence in more ftate. Els what 
 meanes this of t Stapleton : The Tope by a CounceU 
 joyned unto hint , acquires no new Tower ? or Authori- 
 ty , or Certainty in judging , no more then a Head is the 
 wifier by joy rung the Offices of the reft of the members to it } 
 then it is without them ? Or this of* Sellar. That all the fir me- 
 nejfe and infallibility of a Generali CounceU is only from the Tope , 
 
 not 
 
S- 8 * ' Mi 
 
 , , O. v - . #", - • A 
 
 not partly from the Tope, and partly from the Comcell? So, 
 belike the T refence is necelTkry, not the Afiifimcc o 
 Which opinion is the mod groundlefl^ and worth- 
 lefTe, that ever offered to take poffefsion of the Chri - 
 flian (Lurch. And I am perfwaded, many Learned 
 AMen among your felves fcornc it at the very heart. 
 
 And I avow it, I have heard lome Learned and Iudi^ 
 cious Totrnne Catbolikes utterly condcmne it. And 
 well they may. For no man can affirme it, but he 
 fliall make himfclfe a fcorne to all the Learned Men 
 of Cbriftendome , whofcludgements are not Captiva- 
 ted by T^mane Power. And for my owne part, lam 3 Et **'' 
 clearc of a Jacobus oMmairis Opinion : <And a neat f 
 Wonder it u to me, That they which affirme the Pope cannot % 
 erre, do not affirme likewife. that he cannot frnne . And Et ” d 
 
 t i i. J i t i i / i J m rcntjnn qn 
 
 LVerily believe they worn be bold enough to affirme it , did ana ^ - 
 
 not the daily Workes of the 'Topes comped them to believe ‘ 
 
 the Contrary . For very many of them have led lives 1 
 
 quite Contrary to the Gojpellof Chrift. Nay, fuch lives, lertnt : f- : y ^ 
 as no epicurean Monfler ftoried out to the world hath r ; . " 
 
 out-gone them in fenfuality, or other groflfc Impiety , if 
 their owne Hijlorians be true. Take your choice of 
 b John the thirteenth , about the yearc 966. Or of Syl b pi - r : 
 yefler the fecond , about the yeare 999. Or John th> lll V ? 
 eighteenth , about the yeare 1 00 j. Or Benedict the ninth, 
 about the yeare 1055. Or Boniface the eighth, about the 
 yeare 1194, Or Alexander the fixt , about the yeare 
 1492. Andyetthcfe, and their like, mud be infallible 
 in their Dilates and Conclufions of 
 Faith . Do your owne believe it ? c Ne * enim cre< k 
 Surely no: Tot 1 Alpbonj usd Qaftro *Tt 
 
 tels us plainly , That he doth not be- interpretative ss, l » 
 lie~t>e, that any man can befogrofc and 
 impudent a flatterer of the Tope , cu to confers it pla 
 attribute this unto him , that he can ^ 
 
 J J 0 " 
 
 f.de j 
 
 Htei tH » 
 ■ , nec fa 
 hallficfa 
 L. I* 
 
 Glofp? 
 
*<4 
 
 I Harding his 
 Detection of £r~ 
 rows againlt 
 Icrpetl. p. 64. 
 
 * CoelejUnu* er- 
 ravit non foinm 
 ut privata per - 
 fona , i 3 *- 
 
 Alph.4 
 Caftro.£.lW* / . 
 H&rcf % <7.4. Ibid. 
 
 t 
 
 t ?y£t J(A*y5 mrmi- 
 S»< 
 
 CO V 
 
 hi V(rlV (SC> 1 . Li- 
 
 berias >* Epift* 
 ad 6 y4tha»af. 
 apud *Atl° a ~ 
 naf.To. I.p 42 - 
 
 'Tsrififff* 
 1608. Et Edit. 
 Parif. Latino- 
 Gr*c,,l6ij. 
 
 §'#• , 
 
 neither erre, nor tniflah in expounding the Holy Scripture , 
 This comes home * And therefore it may well be 
 thought it hath taken a flirewd Purge. For theft words 
 are Exprefle in the Edition at Tar is 1534. But they are 
 not to be found in that at Qolen 1539. Nor in that at 
 Antwerp 1556. Nor in that at Paris ,1571* + Harding 
 fayes indeed, jUphonJus left it out, of himfelft, in the 
 following Editions. Well: Firft, Harding (ayes this, 
 but proves it not ; lb I may chuft whether I will 
 believe him , or no. Secondly , bee it fo , that hcc 
 did , that cannot helpe their Cauft a whit. For 
 fay hee did diflike the fharpnefle of the Phraft, 
 or ought els in this fpeech , yet he alter d not his judg- 
 ment of the thing. For in all theft later Editions he 
 (peakes as home, if not more then in the firlt ; and 
 fayes Exprefly, * That the Pope may erre, not <mely as a 
 private perfon , hut as Tope. And in difficult Cafes he 
 adds , That the Pope ought to Confult Viros dottos, 
 men of Learning. And this alfo was the Opinion of 
 th t Ancient Church of Qhrifi concerning the Pope and 
 his Jti fallibility. For thus Liberius, and he a Tope him- 
 felfe, writes to Athanafius. 'Brother Atkanajius 9 if you 
 thinke in the prefence of God, andflmft, as I doe } I pray 
 fubferibethis Confefton , which is thought to be the true Faith 
 of the Holy , Catholike , and Apoflolike Church, that may 
 be the more certaine, that you thinke concerning the Faith as 
 We doe. fVt ego etiam perfuafus fim inhaffltanter , 
 That 1 alfo may be perftoaded without all doubting of thfe 
 things which you jhatt be pltafed to Command me . Now 
 Iwouldfaine know,if the Tope at that time were, or 
 did thinke himftlfe Infallible ^ how he fhould poflibly 
 be more certainly perlwaded of any Truth belonging 
 to the Faith by Jtbanafius his Concurring in judgment 
 with him. For nothing can make Infallibility more cer- 
 taine then it is: At leaf!:, not the Concurring ludgement 
 
 of 
 

 
 l/a 
 
 iv w 
 
 1 Poft lALyptiorum fupputationes - 
 zAlcxandrint 'Eerie fa deficit ionem^ L t *- 
 fcopi quoque %omav* Eerie fa per 
 rdi plcrique me Am adhuc ex peri ant fen 
 teptiam , quid cxiftimcm de die Pafcha 
 S, Ambrol. L, to. Epift, 83', 
 
 It! - 
 
 that is Fallible , as S. jFthanafius was. Eefide th< 
 
 Tope Complemented exceeding low, that would 
 lubmit his unerring Judgement to bee Commanded 
 by Jthanafius , who, hee well knew, could Erre. 
 
 Againe in the Cale of L^afier (which 
 made too great a noyle in the 
 Church of old ) 3 Very many men 
 called for S. Ambrofe his Judgement 
 in that Tomt , even after the Defi- 
 nition of the Church of Alexandria , 
 and the Dijhop of Rpme. And this I prefume they 
 would not have done, had they then conceived 
 either the Tope , or his Church Infallible . And thus 
 it continued downe till Lyras 
 
 time. For he fayes exprefly, b That s Ex hoc , P Met Vod&defa non confifltt 
 
 /rs J, F r r • * n bominibus raiione Poteftati* vel ‘Dip- 
 
 many ropes Oi weuas Other Inf Cl tout S } nit aus Ecclefaflica , vel facularis^ quid 
 
 have not onely erred, but even quite multi Vrincipes & iummiPontifaes, & 
 
 Jpofiatized from the Faith. And dEide, &c . Ly^in s. MattLeJ. 
 
 yet now nothing but Infallibility 
 
 will lerve their turnes. Andlometimes they have 
 
 not onely taken upon them to bee Infallible in Ca+ 
 
 thedrd , in their Chaire of Decifion , but alfo to 
 
 Prophecie Infallibly out of the Scripture. ButPro- 
 
 pheticall Scripture (luch as the Revelation is) was 
 
 too dangerous for men to meddle with, which 
 
 would bee carefull of their Credit in not Erring. 
 
 For it fell out in the time of Innocent the third , and 
 
 Honorius the third, fas c AVentine m n „ TT . n f , 
 
 i \ d'l i i V rf i c Ponttnces ex S. nijtorta 3 ® ° 
 
 teiS US J 1 bat the then ropes ajjuied Jfua mendaeijsima effe extttu prob avi . 
 
 the World , that DeflruFUon 1 pm at Aventin. Awal. ‘Poiomm. L. y.p. 529. 
 
 hand to Saracens, Turks, and Ma- Ec *n.Bafil. i^So. 
 
 humetans, which, the Event JheWed , were notorious 
 untruths. And tis remarkeable which happened 
 Anno 1179. For then in a Councell held at Rome, HFope ^ron.An.wj 
 Alexander the third Condemned Teter Lombard of 
 
 M m Herefie : 
 
 4 
 
i66 
 
 Sr* 
 
 Here fie : 'And he lay under that Damnation for thir- 
 ty and fixe yeares, till Innocent the third reflored him, 
 and condemned his Accujers . Now Deter Lombard 
 was then Condemned for (ome thing which hee 
 had written about the humane Tfature of our Savi- 
 our Chrift. So here was a great Myflery of the Faith 
 in hand • fomething about the Incarnation. And the 
 Dope was in Cathedra, and that in a Councelt of three 
 hundred Archbijhops and S ifhops. And in this Conn- 
 cell he condemned Deter Lombard, and, in him, his 
 Opinion about the Incarnation : And therefore of ne- 
 ceffity either Dope Alexander c rred , and that iw Cathe- 
 dra, as Dope, in Condemning him : Or Dope Innocen- 
 tins, inreftoring him. Thefruth \s,Dope JlexandeAid 
 more of Alexander the Great, then of S. Deter in him. 
 And being accuftomed to warlike Imployments, he 
 underftood not that which Deter Lombard had written 
 about this Myflery : And fo He, and his Learned Affi- 
 flants Condemned him unjufily. 
 
 And whereas you profeffe * after , That you hold ne- 
 AftidA. C.p* thing againfi your Qmfcience. I muft ever wonder 
 much, how that can be true, fince you hold this 
 of the Dope's Infallibility, efpecially as being Dropheti - 
 call in the Conclufion. If this be true, why doe you 
 not lay all your ftrength together, all of your whole 
 Society, and make this one Dropofition evident ? for 
 all Controverfies about matters of Faith are ended, 
 and without any great trouble to the (fhrifiian World, 
 if you can but make this one Proportion good , That 
 the Dope is an Infallible Iudge. Till then, this fhame 
 will follow you infallibly , and eternally , That you 
 fhould make the Dope, a meere man , Principium Vi* 
 dei } a Principle, or Authourof Faith • and make the 
 mouth of him, whom you call ChrijTs Vicar , lole 
 Iudge, both of ChriH'sWord, be it never fomanifeft, 
 
 and 
 
 N u m • S • 
 
and of his Church y be fhe never fo Learned ? and 
 carefull of his Truth; ' nd for Conclufion of this 
 Pointy I would faine know (fincc this had beene fb 
 plaine, foeaficaway, eitner to present all Divifions 
 about the Faith 7 or to end all Qontroverfies , did they 
 arife) why this briefe^ but moft neceffary Propojition , 
 The Bijhop of fome cannot erre in his Indicia!! Determi- 
 nations concerning the Faith , is not to be found either 
 in Letter 5 or fenjefm any Scripture , in any Cormcell , 
 or in any Father of the Churchy for the full fpaceof 
 a thoufand yeares and more after Chrijl : For had this 
 Propo/umi been true, and then received in the Church , 
 howweake were all the Primitive Fathers , to pre- 
 icribe fo many Tuples and Cautions for avoydance of 
 Herefie, as Tertullian , and Vincentius Lirinenfs , and 
 others do , and to indure fuch hard Confli&s , as 
 they did, and with fo many various H<ereticks * To 
 fee Chrifiendome fo rent, and torne by fome diftem- 
 pered Coimcels , as that of Ariminum , the fecond of E obe- 
 lus, and others • Nay to fee the T bbole world almoft be- 
 come Arrian, to the amazement of it fclfe ; And yet all 
 this time not fo much as call in this Neceffary ^4fi- 
 fiance of the Pope , and let the world know, That 
 the Di/hop ef Pomelos infallible • that fb in his Decifon 
 all differences might ceale ? For either the Fathers of 
 the fhurch, Greeke , as well as Latine , knew this Pro- 
 poiition to be true, That the Pope cannot Erre ludicially 
 in matters belonging to the Faith , or they knew it not, 
 if you fay they knew it not • you charge them with 
 a bafe, and unworthy Ignorance , no wayes like to 
 over-cloud (iich 5 and fb many Learned men, in a Mat- 
 ter l o Neceffary, and of fuch infinite ufeto Chriften - 
 dome. If you lay they knew it, and durfF not deliver 
 this Truth, how can you charge them which durft die 
 for CbnfijWith fuch Coleardife towards his Church ? 
 
 Mm a And 
 
2,6 8 
 
 §-W 
 
 %The vrilde Extent of the Popes Infallible 
 lity and JuriJ di tlion is a AH flake 0 Thele 
 are the W ords of a Great %y>mane Ga~ 
 t ho l ike uttered to my felfe. But lwill 
 fpare his Name, becaule he is living; and 
 1 will not draw your Envy upon him. 
 b Puto quo dip ft etiam ride ant, quum hoc 
 
 And if you fay they knew it and with-held it from the 
 (burcb 3 you lay a moft unjuft Load upon thofc Chari- 
 table Soules y which loved Chrift too well to imprifon 
 any Truth, but likely to make or keepe peace in his 
 Church Catholike over the world. But certainly, as no 
 
 Tnyine of worth did then dreame 
 of any fuch Infallibility in Him, Co is 
 it a meere dreame, or worfe, of thofe 
 Moderne Viyines 9 who affirme it 
 now a . And as b S. Augufline fom- 
 times fpakeof the Donatifls 3 and 
 
 audinrn, &ta*en nifi hoc dicant, quod. tbc ; r ab f uf J li m i t i n g the whole 
 ernbefcant fi ate ant , non habent ownino . . y , f 
 
 quod dicant. Sed quid ad nos ? Neminiin - Cbpijliatl thuicb tO i^nJTlCa Oneiyj lo 
 
 zidemus. Legant nobis hoc de Script uris ma y I truly fay of the Rommfis 
 Santtis.tf credimw. S. Augurt.d? Fnit. J r . J u i , n . . ^ 
 
 £ cc i, Cm xj' confining all Chrijnamty to the l(o~ 
 
 mane Vottrine , governed by the Topes Infallibility : 
 I yerily perfwademy felfe, Th.it eyen the Jefuites them - 
 felyes laugh at tbit . And yet unlejfe they fay this , which 
 they cannot but blufh while they fay, they haye nothing at 
 all to f ay. But what’s this to we enyy no man I 1 f the 
 Popes Decifion bee infallible 9 Legant, Let them 
 read it to us out of the Holy Scripture , and wed 
 believe it. 
 
 Num. 9. Jn the meane time, take this with you, that 
 °papa nonfcium mo fj certaine it is , That the Pope hath no Infal - 
 
 li, fed & Err ore Ubility to attend his CathedraU Judgement in Things 
 ludiciaif poteft . belonging to the Faith . For firfi , belides the 
 filence of Impartial l Antiquity , Diverfe £ of your 
 main .l. de Au- Qyvne confeffe it yea and proove it too, by fun- 
 
 thor.Ecdcf.CA 0. dry frjfag"' 
 
 Num. 10. Secondly , there is a great Queftion among the 
 
 d l. i.deXsm. Learned, boch S cbook-men and Control erfers, Whether 
 e 'sifnaFidcde - the Tope comming to bee an Heretic ke may bee Depofed ? 
 vius. Difi. 40. And Tis learnedly dilputed by ^ Bellarmine. The Opi- 
 (an % si Papa. n ; ons are different. Forth Canon-Law faics exprefly, 
 
 He 
 
S-33- 
 
 i6p> 
 
 Dizlno 
 
 * Papa fa fl/ts H Are tic us non eft tp fofuflo, 
 vel jure Divino , vel humano uepofitus.fed 
 deponendus .Czjet.Traft ,de Author. Pap a 
 ($ Concilii. c. 2 0. 
 
 t P*fa Hxretic us manifeft us pc r fe deft- 
 nit ejfe Papa & Caput &c. St mm pot eft 
 ah E cl left a Iudicari,& puntri. RelUr. L . 
 2.ae Rom. Pont. c. 3 o.§ t Eli ergo quinta* 
 
 He may be judged and depofed by the (J)urch m Q / e °f Cde- 
 re/ie. t lo.de Turrccremata is of Opinion, Thac the Pope is 
 to be depofed by the Church io foone as he becomes + Sure 
 an Hereticke, though as v<-r not a manifeft one ; Becauf l ’ apM fftdoZ 
 he is already defr^ ,j £>t vine ’Right. And recites ano- J UrieCrem.Z. 4 . 
 ther opinion, ibat the T ope cannot be depofed, though be 
 fall into fecret or manifeft Herefie. * Cajetan thinkes KoEPontx.^o . 
 that theP fi* cannot be depofed, but for 
 a manifeft Herefie, and that then be is 
 not depofed ipfo fa&o, hut mutt be de- 
 pofed by the Church . f TelUrmines 
 owne Opinion is , That if the Tope 
 become a manifeft Hereticke,he prefent - 
 ly ceafes to beTope and Head of the Churchy and may then be 
 Judged andpunifhed by the Church. Bellamine hath deput- 
 ed this very 1 "arnedly, and at large, and I will not fill 
 thisT)ifcourfe with another mans labours. The ufe 
 I Hull make of it, runnes through all thefe Opinions, 
 and through 1) alike* And truly the very Queflion it 
 felfe fuppoieSji at A Tope may be an Heretick . For if he 
 cannot bean/- *etick, why doe they cjueftion, whe- 
 
 )ofed for being One ? And if he can 
 :r he can be depofed by the Church, 
 or not till after, or neither before nor 
 they will , it comes all to one for 
 queflion not here his Vepofition for 
 Herefie. And I hope none of chcfc 
 ny other dare deny, but that if the 
 'icke, he can trre. For every Herefie 
 >re. For kis an Errour ofetimes 
 againfl the Errant: nowlcdgc 3 but ever with the per - 
 tinacie of his JPilLTt 'efore out of all, even your owne 
 Grounds • If the T e can be an Heretick , he can erre 
 grofly, hecanerre^ dly . And he that can fo Erre, 
 cannot bee Infallibl x\ his Judgement vateoc 
 
 M m 
 
 trier he can be I 
 be o«£,then whe. 
 r Before he be man 
 after, or which v 
 my purpofe. For 
 his Herefie , but i 
 Learned men,no 
 'Pope can be an Hi 
 is an errour, and , 
 
 o. 
 
zya 
 
 
 publike. For if he can be an Hereticke , he can , and 
 doubtlefle willludge for his Here fie, ifthe Church let him 
 alone. And you your feives maintaine his Depofition 
 * L 4* lawfuil, to prevent this, I verily believe a Jib . Tighius 
 erlifhlfls. " iorefaw this blow. And therefore he is of Opinion. 
 b Commmis o « That the Tope cannot become an Hereticke at all. And 
 
 ^tr or ium. BelJaT t bough b Be liar mine favour him fo farrc , as to fay his 
 L.'i.deRo.Pont * Opinion is probable : yet he is fb honeft as to adde , 
 c -3 0 *' 2 ' that the common Opinion of Divines is againfihim: Nay, 
 de Ro though c he Labour hard to excufe Tope Honorius the 
 firH from theHerefie of the Mo?wthelites, and fayes,that 
 Tepe A. Irian was deceived, who thought him one, yet 
 
 dHecon feffes, That Tope Adrian tie 
 fecond^with the Councell then held at 
 Tome, and the eight Getter all Synod did 
 thinke that the Tope might be judged in 
 the Caufe of Herejie : And that the con- 
 dition of the Church Vatre moft tnijera- 
 hie , if it fheuld be confirained to ac- 
 knowledge a Wolfe inanifeftly raging for her Shepbeard. And 
 here againe I have a Queftion to aske 7 whether you 
 believe the eight Generali Councell, or not? If you be- 
 lieve it, then you fee the Tope can erre 3 and fo He not 
 Infallible. If you believe it nor, then in your Judgement 
 that Generali Councell erres,and fo that not Infallible. 
 
 Thirdly , It is altogether in vaine and to no ufc, 
 that the Tope fhould be Infallible, and that according to 
 your owne Trinciples » Now God and Nature ?nake nothing 
 in uime.Therefore either th cTope is not Infallible, or ac 
 lead God never made him fo. That the Infallibility of 
 the Tope (had he any in him) is altogether vaine,- and 
 ufeleffe,is manifeft. For if it be of any ufe, ’tisfor the 
 fetlingo {Truth and Peace in the Churchill all times 
 of her Diffraction. But "neither the Church, nor any 
 m 'yO'ti J c can make any ufc of the Topes Infallibility 
 
 that 
 
 c L. 4. 
 
 ‘Pent. cap. 11. 
 
 d Tamen non pofsumus ne^are,sjuin Adri- 
 anas atm Tfomane Ccncilio , imb & tota 
 Sy nodus oftava Generalis fenferit , in c un- 
 fit Hare/is po(fe Rom. Pontificemjudicari. 
 nslddc quod ejfet miferrima Conditio Ec- 
 ckfw-y (i Luvum manifejie arajfuntem pro 
 P afiore wynofeere cogeretur. Bellar, L. 2. 
 de%o»Pont.c 
 
 Num.ii. 
 
§. 33 - • 2 7 ! 
 
 that way ; Therefore it is of no ufe or benefit at all. 
 
 And this alfo is as manifeft,a$ the relh For before the 
 Church, or any particular man can make any ufe of 
 this Infallibility , to fettle him and his Confidence, hee 
 mufi: either Kyiou? or Believe that the Tope is Infallible j 
 But a man can neither L\iiow nor Believe it. And firjl 
 for r Bd'u fe • For if the Church, or any Chriftian man 
 can believe it , he mult believe it either by Divine y or 
 by Humane Faith. Divine Faith cannot be had of it ; 
 
 For ( as is before prooved ) it hath no Ground in the 
 Written Word of God . Nay (to follow you clofer)ic was 
 never delivered by any L radition of the Catholike Church: 
 
 And for Humane Faith > no Tfationall man can poffibly 
 believe (having no Word of God to over-rule his Vn- 
 derftanding) that he which is Fallible in the meanest 
 3 your feives confcfle the Tope is, can poffibly l e Inf alii- a StapIe Rt i e % m 
 He in the Conclufion . And were it fo that a Ifationall man ^.4.^.2. 7 ^o- 
 could have Humane Faith of this Infallibility yet that 
 neither is, nor ever can be fufficient to make the Tope 
 Infallible. No more then my ftrong Beliefe of another 
 mans Honefty can make him an Honeft man, if he 
 be not fo. Now fecondly for Knowledge , And that is 
 altogether impoffiblc too, that either the Church, or 
 any Member of the Church , ffiould ever know that 
 the Pope is Infallible . And this I fhall make evident al- 
 fo out of your o wne Principles . For your b Councell of b Omnia Sacra- 
 Florence had told us That three things are necejfary to eve- 
 ry Sacrament , the Matter, the Forme of the Sacrament , T>ecret. Eugenii 
 And the Intention of the Triefl , which Adminifters it , 4 *** Conet/.Flcm 
 
 ren. 
 
 that he intends to do as the Church doth. Your c Coun - c Con.TrU.Sef. 
 " cell of Trent confirmes it for the Intention of the Triefl. 7 -Can.i. 
 Vpon this Ground ( be it Tocke or Sand , it is all one 
 for you make it .Roland build upon it) Iffiallraifc 
 this Battery again ft the Topes Infallibility. Fir H the Tope 
 if he have any Infallibility at all, he hath it as he is Bifhop 
 
 of 
 
Z 7 Z . $•& 
 
 %/pont^c^' t atlc ^ $'% eters Succejjor . a This is granted. Se- 
 
 Atcerum Pnvi, condly, the Pope cannot be ' Bijhop of Thorne, but he mult 
 legium eft. be in holy Orders fir Ft. And if any man be chofen chat is 
 
 notfo, rhe Election is void ipjofafto, propter err ore m Per* 
 Jonafor the Errour of the Perfon. t This is alfo grant- 
 i Conftantmus e j # "Thirdly He that is to be made Tope can never be in 
 circa Ann/ 767 . Holy Orders, but by receiving them from One that 
 ejettxs P*p*tt*. bach Tower to Ordaine. This is notorioufly knowne f 
 fucufsh'LZ So is it alfo, that with you Order is a Sacrament properly 
 Conalio flatuit , J 0 called And if fo, then the Tope, when he did receive 
 gratis "eccIJ- ^ ie Order of Deacon, or TrieUhood at the hands of the ©i- 
 afitcos afeendens y^op,did alfo receive a Sacrament . Vpon thefe Grounds 
 Tjprf^ludrra I ra de my Argument thus. Neither the Church, nor 
 jub pand Ana- any Member of the Church can know that this 
 themans. Deer et j> 0 p e w hich now fits , or any other that hath becne , 
 
 lus. ’ 7 9 ' c ' U or (hall be, is Infallible . For he is not Infallible yinlcffc he 
 be Tope, and he is not Tope, unlefle he be in Holy Orders , 
 And he cannot befo , unleffe he have received thofe 
 Holy Orders , and that from one that had Power to 
 Ordaine., And thofe Holy Orders in your Do&rine are 
 a Sacrament , And a Sacrament is not pcrfe&ly given, if 
 he that Adminifters it have not intentionem faciendi 
 quod faett Ecclefia 3 an intention to doe that which the 
 Church doth by Sacraments . Now who can poilibly 
 tell,that the Bifhop which gave the Tope Orders, was 
 firjl , a man qualified to give them : and Jecondly, fo 
 devoutly fet upon his Worke , that he had, at the In- 
 ftant of giving them, an Intention and purpofe to doe 
 therein as the Church doth ? Surely none but that 
 Bifop himfelfe. And his teftimony of himfelfe^ and 
 his owne A cl, (uch efpecially as,if faulty,he would be 
 loth to Confeffe, can neither give knowledge nor Be- 
 lief e fufficient,that the Tope^ccording to this ( f non, is 
 in Holy Orders . So upon the Whole matter,Iet the fo- 
 maniHs take which they will(T give them free choyce) 
 
 either 
 
% n 
 
 cuhcr this Canon of the (four. cell of Trent is fidfe Divini- 
 ty, and there is no fuch Intention ncceflary to the £/- 
 fence and r Bemg of a Sacrament : Or if it be true, it is 
 impoffible for any man to know , and for any advif- 
 ed man to Believe 5 That the Pope is Infallible in his lu* 
 dkiall Sentences in things belonging to the Faith. And 
 fo h re aguinc a Generali Councell, at leafl Cuch an 
 One 5 as ihac of Trent is ? can Erre , or the Pope is 
 not Infallible, 
 
 But this is an Argument ad Hominm , good NuMrii;’ 
 againlt your Parcie onely which maintaine this 
 Council. But the plaine Truth is, Both are Errors, 
 
 For neither is the Bijhop of %ome Infallible in his 
 Iudicialls about the Faith : Nor is this Intention 9 of 
 either Bifhop or (Priejl of Abfolute Nccefficy to the 
 EJfenceof a Sacrament • fo , as to make void the gra- 
 cious fnftitution of Chrift , in cafe by any Tenta- 
 tion the Triefls Thoughts fhould wander from his 
 Worke, at the Infant of ufing the Eftntials of a Sa- 
 crament y or have in him an A&uall intention to 
 fcorne the Church. And you may remember, if 
 you pleafe 5 that a Neapolitan t Bifliop then prdent at | Minorenfis E. 
 Trent difputed this Cafe very learnedly, and madeit pfcGpusfm^ 
 moft evident that this Opinion cannot be defend- 
 ed , but that it muft open a way for any unworthy 
 JPrieft to make infinite Nullities in Adminiilration 
 of the Sacraments . And his Arguments were of fuch 
 flrength , * ut caterosTbeologos dederint in ftuporem , * l i.Hitt. Tri- 
 as amazed the other Divines which were prefent. 2 7^77,* 
 And concluded, T hat no Internail Intention Was repair- L “ £ ' Art l6i * 
 ed in the JMinifler of a Sacrament , but that Intenti- 
 on which did appeare Opere externo , in the Worke 
 it felfe performed by hiniy And that if hze had unwor- 
 thily any wandring thoughts , nay more , any contrary 
 Intention within him , yet it neither did , nor could 
 
 Nn hindeir 
 
m 
 
 N U M. 13. 
 
 3 Summits Pon- 
 tifix cjuum to - 
 tain Ecclejiam 
 do ret, in his qua 
 tii Fidem peril- 
 nrnt, nullo caju 
 err are otifi 
 
 £el./.4/Z>? Kj. 
 Pont c. 3 .1 . 
 
 b Concilia Cjenc* 
 ralia a ‘Tontifi- 
 cs Conjirmata er- 
 rare non poftunt. 
 
 Bel. L.2 % dcCon. 
 c, 2.§,r. 
 
 S'W 
 
 hinder the blefsed effeR of any Sacrament. And mod ce r- 
 taineitis* if this be nor true* bcfidcs all other Incon- 
 veniences, which arc many, no man can fecure him- 
 felfe upon any Doubt or trouble in his Conference* 
 that he hath truly, and really becne made partaker of 
 any Sacrament whatsoever* No* not of Baptifmc • 
 andfo by Confcquence be left in Doubt whether he 
 bea Chriftian or no * even after he is Baptifed. Wher- 
 as tis mod impoffible^ That Qnijl fhould fo order 
 his Sacraments * andfo leave them to his Church , as that 
 poore 'Believers in his TSfamc * by any unworthinede of 
 any of bis Briefls^ fhould not be able to know whether 
 tlyy have received His Sacraments or not* .even w hik 
 they have received them. And yet for ail this fuch 
 great lovers of Truth * and fuch Carefull Baflors over the 
 Flock of Chrijl were thefe Trent Fathers * that they re- 
 garded none of this* but went on in the ufuall track, 
 and made their Decree for the Internall lntentio\and pur* 
 pfe of the Briefly and that the Sarcament was invalid with- 
 out it. 
 
 Nay ? one Argument more there is, and from your 
 owne Grounds too^hat makes it more then manifeft* 
 That the Dope can are * not Ber fondly only, bu : Judicially 
 alfojand fo teach fade Dodtrinc to the Churchjwhich 
 a Bell arm ine tels us K[o Bope hath done y or can doe. . And a 
 v axime it is with you flhat a Gaierall Qotwcell can a Ye ‘if 
 it be not confirmed by the Bope , b But if it be confirmed 
 then it camotern . Where firfljtkis is very improper Lan- 
 guage. For i hope no Corniced is Confirmed,rill it be 
 fimihed. And when kis finifhed*even before the Bopes 
 Confirmation be put to it*either it hath Erred*cr not er- 
 red. If it have Erred, the Bope ought not to Confirme ir* 
 and if he do* tis a njoid HR . For no power can make 
 falfhood Truth : ffit have not Erred then it was True 
 before th zBope Qonfinned it . So his Confirmation addes 
 
 nc thing 
 
s 
 
 *)** 
 
 iy 
 
 57 
 
 3 Cone, Later an. 
 Can . 1 . 
 
 nothing but his ownc Afsent , T hercforc his Confirma- 
 tion of a Generali (Joimcell (a^ you will needs call ip)is at 
 the mod Stgmm , mow Caufa, A and that fuch as 
 may faile, but no (fiauje of the Councels not Erring. But 
 then [ecottdly, if a Generali Councell Confirmed (as you 
 would have it) by the Tope have Erred, and fo can Erre, 
 then certainly the Tope can Etrc ludiciall). For he never 
 gives a more f olemne Sentence for Truth, t hen when he 
 Decrees any thing in a Generali (fiouncell. Therefore if he 
 have Erred, and can Erie there, then certainly he can 
 Erre in his Definitive Sentence about the Faith 5 and is 
 not Infallible. Now chat he hath Erred, and therefore 
 can Erre ii a Generali (fiouncell Confirmed , in which he 
 takes up 01 aim. to teach ail Chriftendome,is moft cleere 
 and evident. For the Pope teaches in, and by the 3 Corn- 
 all oi Later an Confirmed by Innocent the third • fhrill 
 is prefent in the Sacrament by way of Tranfubttanti- 
 ation. And in , and by the b Councell of Confiance , 
 the Adminiftration of the Blcffed Sacrament to the * Cor T l b f on ' 
 Laity in one kinde , notwithftanding Chrifts Inftitu- 
 tion of it in both Aint/e; for all. And in, and by the 
 € Counc ell ofi Trent , Invocation of Saints , and Adoration < £ oncil 
 of Images , to the great Scandallof Chrijlianity , and Seff.i^sDecrefi 
 as great hazard of the Weake. Now that thefe ^ iwoiationc. 
 Particulars among Many 3 areErrours in Divinity, and 
 about the Faith, is manifeft both by Scripture , and 
 the ludgement of the Primitive Church For Tranfub- 
 ftantiation firjl ; That was never heard of in the 
 Primitive Church , nor till the Counccll of Lateran 9 
 nor can it bee proovedout of Scripture ; And taken 
 properly cannot ftand with the Grounds of QmfFan 
 Religion. As for Communion in one kinde • Chritls InflL 
 tution is clecre againftchat, And not onelyrheTn- 
 mitivt Church , but the Whole Church of Ckrifl kept 
 it fo , till within lefle then foure hundred yeares. For 
 
 N n x a Aquinas 
 
3 Provide in quibufdam Ecclefiis ob/er- 
 v&tur, ut To pub Sanguis non detttr. 
 Tno.n.p. 3. <7. So .A. i2. c. So ic was 
 hue in feme Churches in his time, Negare 
 non po(fumus etiatn in Ecclejid Latind 
 fuijfe ufitm utriufque fpeciei , <£ ufque ad 
 tempora S. Thom a durajfe. Vafqu. in 3. 
 
 i -/6 5 *^* 
 
 * Aquhiu confefles it was (o in ufe 
 even to his times j And he was 
 both borne and dead during the 
 Raigne of Henry the third of England. 
 Nay, it ftands yet as a Monument 
 /? hi the very b M/M, againfl: the 
 
 b Refettt cibo potu% code ft i Pens no/ter, J JJ 3 O 
 
 Te fuppltces exoramus &c. In proprio preient Practice Ol the LbuTCh of 
 
 Mtfrarumde Santtts, Ianua. ij.Orat: (R^ m g y That then it Was llfually 
 r J utVen and received in both kmdes. And 
 
 for In vocation of Saint s 9 though fome of the Ancient Fa- 
 thers havefom c Rhetor icall flourijhes about it, for the 
 ftirring up of DeVotion (as they thought) yet the Church 
 then admitted not of the Invocation of them, but 
 only of the Commemoration of the Martyrs , as appeared 
 
 cleerely in c S. AuzuBine. And when 
 
 Homines Dei nominantur , non tamsn d ^he GllUrch played tO God for any 
 Sacerdote, qui Sacrifcat , Invocantur. S, thing, Ihe defired to be heard fer 
 Aug. L . 2i. Cw. Da. c. 10. the Mercies and the Merits of Chrijf 
 
 hot for the Merits of any Saints whatfoever. For I 
 much doubt this were to make the Saints more then 
 i Bell arm. £. 1. Mediators of Inter cef ion } which is all that d you will ac- 
 ^titud^ °2o% knowledge you allow the Saints, For I pray, is noth) 
 Ad primum ago the Merits, more then by the Intern fsion ? Did not Chtijl 
 locum redeemeus by his Merits ? And if God muft heare 
 
 our Prayers for the Merits of ihe Saints , how much fall 
 
 they ihort of fharers in the* Media- 
 tion of (Redemption* You may rhinkc 
 of this. For fuch Prayers as thefe 
 the Church of Rome makes at this 
 day, and they ftand (not without 
 great fcandal) to Chrifi , and Cbri* 
 
 *Vt ejus Meritis & Precibus a Gehmtu Jlianity) ufed, and authorized to be 
 lncendik liber emur.hs proprio Mi jf arum pj - ^ ftftfldll. For illftancC. 
 deSAntttspecembt, JJ 
 
 f Vpon the Feast of o, Nicolas you 
 
 pray, That Godby the Merits and Trayers of S. Nicolas, 
 
 T^onld 
 
 t Sunt Redemptffres no fir i aliquo modo 
 & fecundumAUquid.'&dhT.L 1. Dc In- 
 dulge*. c. q.Et Sunttos uppcllat Numina. 
 L .2 ,dejm Agin. S and orum.c .20 .§ 3 .Now 
 if this word ( Numtn ) lignifie any thing 
 elfe befides God himfelfe , or the power 
 of God, or the Oracle of God, let BclUr - 
 wine fhew it ; or A. C. for him. 
 
33 - 
 
 ’'Would deliver you from the fire of Helh And upon 
 the OriaVes of S- Teter and S. TauL 
 
 J it, 
 
 %J7 
 
 * you defire God 7 hat you may Ob - 
 taine the Glory of Eternity by their 
 Merits, And on the b Feaft of S.©o- 
 naventure you pray 7 that God Would 
 abfolve you from all your finnes by the 
 Interceding Merits of BonaVenture . 
 And for Adoration of Images 7 the 
 f Ancient Church knew it not 
 
 * ZJt A mb warn Mentis CJi 
 
 riam confeqnanmr, Ibi J, Juki 6 . 
 
 Ejtis intercedentibns Mentis ab Gmr.i* 
 ypu nos ah fc he peccatk. Ibi d.Jtdii 14. 
 c In Optattfs his time the Chriltians 
 were much troubled upon but a falfe rs~ 
 port. That an Image was to be placed n, 1- 
 on the Altar.. What would they have 
 done, if Adoration had been Comman- 
 ded ? &c. Et rettz dillnm erat ^ ft taletit 
 And f*™am fimlu verit-as fequerctftr. Opta~ 
 
 the Modernt Qwrcb of tf{ome is too ' S ^ 
 like to Bagantfme in the Practice of it ; and driven to 
 fcarcs bitebigible Subtilties in her Servants Writings 
 that defend it - And this without any Care had of 
 Millions of Soules unable to under Aand her Subtilties } ot 
 fhun her Tratlice. Did 1 fay , the Moderne Church cf 
 <]{ome is grown too like Taganifme in this Point ? And 
 may as Speech leeme too hard ? Well, if it doe 3 171 
 give a double Account of it. The One is, ’Tis no 
 harf :r Exprefijon then They of %ome ufe of the (Fre- 
 tefta.its j and in Cafes in which there is no fliew or 
 Refc nblance. For d Becams tels us, Tvs no more law- 
 full u ■’ eceivethe Sacrament as the Calvinifls receive it , dolacohre . Ee- 
 then'tts to-worfhip Idols with the Ethnicks . And Gregory fp' L. de fde 
 
 i tt i . . i 1 . . i V Hxret.fervandd, 
 
 de Valentia inlarges it to more Points then one, but c . g e 
 wit t no more truth. T he SeBaries . . 
 
 of our times ^ (iaithhe) Jeemetokrre 
 
 culpaoly in more things then the Gen- «,<«?»« Thomas. £>»b<i nos ptjfumu 
 
 ,it«. Thisiselfilyfaid, but here's 
 
 no Proofe. Norfihall Ihold it a re. Valencia/« 2 . 2 tf.D^.i.^io,?^ 
 
 fufficient warrant for me to fower ti0 
 
 my Language , becaufe thcle men have dipped their 
 
 Pens in Gall. The other Account therefore which I 
 
 fhall give of this fpecchjfliaii come vouched both by 
 
 Authority and %eafon. And firft for Authority * f 
 
 Nn j could 
 
 
o 
 
 lid 
 
 § 35 
 
 tih nm J. ml Him a. Lud V ives ibid. 
 
 * Qnod eyiTo mortui* litabatur , utique 
 parent attorn deputabatur , qua fpccies pro- 
 inde JdololatrU eft , quantum & IdoloU - 
 trio, P arcntationis eil J pecies . Tcnul!. 
 L. de'SpeVtacuh* . c. 12. 
 
 could fee Luhyicw Viyes againft if I would, 
 
 who Lyes exprefly , That the making of Feafts at the 
 
 Oratories of the FMartyrs ( which 
 
 a guod quidemd C^ft Unii rnelioribus a $. Auguftine tds US, T he be ft Chri- 
 nonfu. S. Aug. L.%. de Ctv.Det.c. 27. p ra ^ ec l no t J are a kinde of 
 
 b iiu c>Hd<i Parent aha fuperftittoKi Gen - - 5 Parent alia , Funeral! Feafts too much 
 
 refemblingthe fupcrftition of the Gen- 
 tiles. Nay ,Fiyes need not fay, refem- 
 bling that fuperftition fmcc'Ter tub ian 
 tels usplainely, that Idolatry it felfe 
 is but a kinde of Parentation. And 
 Viyes dying in the Communion of the Church of 
 Rome, isabetter teftimony againft you ^henBecanus, 
 or Valenti a, being bitter enemies to our Communion, 
 can be againft us. But He come nearer home to 
 you , and prove it by more of your o wne. For d Caf - 
 
 f under, who lived and died in your 
 Communion, fay es it exprefly fChat 
 in this prefent Cafe of the Adoration 
 of Images, you came full home to the 
 Superftition of the Heathen. And 
 fecondly , for Reafon, I have (I chink) 
 too much to give, that the Moderne 
 Church of Rome is growne too like 
 to Taganifme in this Point. F or the 
 
 Ot Thorns, and other fuperrtitions con- c Councellof Trent it felfe confeffes 
 cerning Images. Jbid . ’ 
 
 d Marti feftius ell, quant ut multi* verbis 
 explicari debeat , Imaqinum qfr ftmula - 
 chrorum £ ultum nimium invaluifte , & 
 ajfePUoni , feu pottus fuper(liticni popu - 
 h plus [atts indultnm ejfe,ita ut ad Jum- 
 mam adorationem qua vel a Paganuftui* 
 fimulacris exhtberi confuevit, qfre. Caf- 
 ( \r\d.C9nfult.Art.1\ftcfDe Imaginibus. 
 W here he names diverfe of your owne, 
 as namely, j Durantus CMimatenfts £pi - 
 fcopus , Iohn ‘Billet , G erf on , Blur and, 
 Holkot,a.nd Biel , rejebting the Opinion 
 
 That to believe there’s an yDiyinity 
 c T^onquodCre- j n Images, is to do as the Gentiles did by their Idols . And 
 aiur uu e^ait^ ^ ^ j n f orae WOIC | s afterthe Fathers of th at Coun- 
 
 qua vans 
 
 nit as , &veiuti cell ieeme very religioufly carefull, that all i Occafion 
 
 °Gentilus ^Conc . °f dangerous Err our be preyented • yet the Do&rine it 
 Trid. Sejf. 25, ielfeislo full of danger, that it workes ftrongly, both 
 pDecret.de invo- U p 0n Learned and r > Unlearned , to the fcandall of 
 
 f Et rudibuspe- Religion , and the perverting of Truth. For the V T^- 
 ^ earne d fit ft, how it workes upon them by whole 
 ibid/ * * Countries 
 
Et (idee Gens 
 
 $• V>' l 79 
 
 Countries togethe^you may fee by what happened in 
 Jlfturia, Cantabria, (faletia, no (mall parts of Spaine. t-n 
 
 For there the ‘Teople (lo * He tels me that was an tye- cis corrofis &de- 
 ypitnefie, and that fines the Councell of Trent) are fo ad- 
 dieted to their yeorme eaten and deformed Images that when jie t fmties Ed- 
 the ‘Jdijbdp commanded neyp , and handfommer images to be f C0 P l > ucentiorcs 
 Jet up in their roomes, the poore people cried for their old, {ZTcZfHaZf- 
 would not looke up to their new, as if they did tut repre- taut p lor antes , 
 fent the fame thing. And though he fay, this is by little tLfrZZ'f?. 
 and little amended, yet 1 believe there’s very little c. 3. 
 Amendment. And it workes upon the Learned too, 
 more then it fliould. For it wrought fo farre upon 
 Lamas himfdfe, who bemoaned the former Paifage, t imagines Chn~ 
 as that he delivers this Doctrine y f That the Images of S f ZZaL 
 Chrifl , the r Bleffed Virgin , and the Saints y are not to be rum non fmt 
 ‘Svorfhippedt as if there were any 'Divinity in the Images pu 
 they are material l things made by Art put only as they repre - bus cjfet Divini « 
 ft °.nt Chrifl and the Satnts ; For els it mere Idolatry So then ffffffff 
 belike, according to the Divinity of this Cafuitt,a.mm IZ Arte effigZ- 
 m ay worth ip Images, andaskeof them, and put his ta *& non f eCHn ~ 
 truftinthem, as they Represent Chrift, and the Saints. ^ZfentZntchri- 
 For fo there is Vicinity in them 3 though not as Things, Jlum,&Sanaos, 
 yet as Reprefenters. And what I pray did, or could any fff r J e [ C ve T^- 
 Pagan Triefl fay more then this f For the Propofition tere illiquid ab 
 refolvedis this. The Images of Chrifl and the Saints as us > e f et Idol f^ 
 tbeyreprefent their Exemplars ? haye Deity or Infinity in 
 them. And now 1 pray A.C. doe you be fudge, whe* 
 ther this Tropofition do not teach Idolatry ? And whe- 
 ther the dModcrne (fhurch of %ome be not growne coo 
 like to r P aganifme in this Point ? For my owne part 5 
 I heartily wilh it were not. And that men of Learn- 
 ing would not ftraine their wits to fpoile the Truth , 
 and rent the Peace of the Church of Chrifl: by fuch 
 dangerous,fuch fuperftitious vanities. For better they 
 are not $ but they may beworfe. Nay thefe and their 
 
 like 
 
 I 
 
280 
 
 * S^uisferat po- 
 pulum in Tern - 
 plum irrurntem , 
 ecu in bar a Su- 
 es} Certe non ob - 
 funt populo Le- 
 remoma^fedpro- 
 (unt, f mo am in 
 eiu fervetur, & 
 Caveam'44 n'e 
 
 'TTZtpZpyt; ipjav 
 
 loco habcantur , 
 hoc eft, ncpr&ci- 
 puam pietatem 
 in Hits colloce- 
 tkus. Rhen. an - 
 not. in Tcrtul.de 
 Cor. Mil, 
 
 §W 
 
 like have given To great a Scandal! among w, to feme 
 ignorant, though, I prefume, well meaning men, that 
 they are afraid to teftifie their Duty to God , even in 
 his owns Houle , by any Outward Geflnre at all. In To 
 much that thofe very Ceremonies , which, by the lodge- 
 ment of Godly and Learned men , have row long 
 continued in the pradtice of this Church , luflFerhard 
 mcafureforthe Romiflj Superflitions fake. But 1 will 
 conclude this Point with the laying of B. Rhena - 
 nus : Who could indure the people ( (ayes hee ) rujb - 
 ing into the Church like Swine into a Stye ? Doubt - 
 lejfe , Ceremonies doe not hurt the people , but profit 
 them, fo there be a meane kept , and the By be not put for 
 the Maine , that is Jo We place not the principal! part of our 
 Piety in them. 
 
 The Conference growes to an end, and I mull 
 meet it againe ere we part. For you fay, 
 
 __ » • . 
 
 p. ^After this ( we all rifling) the Lady asked the B . 
 
 so hether floe might be fayed in the Romane 
 Faith ? He anf wered^ She might . 
 
 §. 34 . B- What? Not one t An fvver perfcdlly related ? 
 
 h Cave ne dwn Anfwer to this was Generali , for the ignorant. 
 
 vis ahum not are . J . . t . r it- r i Hr . r 
 
 Culp*, iprenote - that could not dikerne the hrrours or that Church*, lo 
 ns CaiuwnU. they held the Foundation , and conformed themulves 
 v^PcufH. to a Religious life. But why do you not fpeake out 
 what 1 added in this Partcular ? That it mujl needs go 
 harder with the LaJy y eyen in Point of Salivation, becaufe 
 flhe had beene brought to under ft and yery much , for one of 
 her Condition, in thefe Controller ted ( aujes of Religion . 
 And a Perfon that comes to know much, had need carefully 
 bethinke himflefe, that he o pofe not knowne Truth againfl 
 the Church that made him a Chriftian. For Salvation may 
 be in the Church of Rome , and yet they not findeit, 
 
 that 
 
§' iSi 
 
 tbatmake lureflof it: Here A.C . isas confident as 
 the himfelre 3 / hat I /aid exprefly , TW ffce LWjy 
 might be Javed in the \omane Faith . Truly, ’tis too long 
 fince now for me to fpeake any more then I have al- 
 ready, upon my memory : But this 1 am fure of. 
 
 That whatfoever l laid of her , were it never (o 
 particular 5 yet was it under the Conditions before 
 exprefled. 
 
 F. f bad her marke that ■ 
 
 B* This AnKver 
 you. But it feemes 
 you would fainehave 
 it lay a load of cn- 
 vie upon mee, that 
 you profeffe you bad 
 the Lady, fo carefully 
 marke that . Well, you 
 bad her Marke that. 
 For what ? For for e 
 great matter ? or jr 
 fome new ? Not or 
 fbme fiire. or 
 the Trot e slants ve 
 ever beene read* for 
 Truth and in t parity 
 to grant as much as 
 might be. And there- 
 fore from the be- 
 ginning many f Lear- 
 ned men granted this. 
 So that you needed 
 not have put fiich a 
 ferious Mark that upon 
 
 (I am fare) troubles not Num. r. 
 
 t fattmHr fub Fapattt plurimam ejfe boni , irno 
 
 omne bottom Chrifliannm, atcjne etiam Mine ad nos de- 
 veniffe>&c. Luther .centra Anab*ytifl. citante Ee!lat~ 
 mino, £.4. de Notts Eccief. c . 1 6. penult. Et Field. 
 A pp endue. par. %.c. 2. Et /of, HaU Buliop of Exeter. 
 L. Ot die Old Religion, c-t. Many holding Chriftthe 
 Foundation aright, and groaning under tile burden of 
 Popifli tralli. &c. byagenerall repentance, and allured 
 Faith in their Saviour , did finde favour with the L 'rd. 
 D. Geo. Abbot late Archbilhop of Cant, Anl'wer to Hill-, 
 ad %jit ion. 1. §*30. 
 
 For my parti dare not deny the pofTibility of their Sal- 
 vation, who have beene the chiefelt Inlfruments of ours, 
 See. Hooker in hisDifcourl'e of Iufhlica^ §,17. In for- 
 mer times a man might hold the generall Doctrine of 
 thofe Churches, wherein our Fathers lived, and be faved. 
 And yet fince the Councell of Trent fomc are found m it 
 in fuch degree of Orthodoxy, as we may well hope of 
 their Salvation. Field. L. 3. Eccl. c. 47. 
 
 The Latine, or Wclterne Church fuhjecf to the Romilli 
 Tyranny, was a true Church, in which a laving profeffion 
 of the Truth of Chrild was found. I of. Hall B.of Exe- 
 ter. L Of the old Religion, fine, in his Adverciiement to 
 the Reader, p. 20 2. 
 
 A Ion pattci rctinuerunl (fhriflum F undampntwn , c, 
 Mornaeus TraH.de Eccief a c.9. fine. 
 
 Inter fordes if as } t ft a qua fummo cum pericttlo expeBctttr 
 faltts , non ip forum Additamentis y fed its qtr<t nobifeum ha- 
 bent commuma F undameniis efi attribaenda. Io. Pride- 
 aux Leclitne g.fine. 
 
 Tapa alufuam adbuc Tfclieionis formant relinquit ,fper» 
 vita Aterna non tollit , Oc, Calv. Inf rued, adverf Liber - 
 tinoSiC , 4 . 
 
 Oo 
 
 my 
 
my fpeech , as if none before had , or none buc I 
 would I peake it. And ify our Mirke that were not for 
 
 fome New matter, was it for lome 
 a Here A. C. gets another l'uacch, and Great? Yes fure, it Was. For what 
 
 tiZkoIt^RomZ aSu.t grater then Salvation ? But then ( 
 
 free Confefsion of an Adverfary ^andjher- pray, markc this tOO, That Might be 
 
 fore ts of force againfius, and extorted by j a y g J p rants but a 3 PofiibiUty, no 
 Truth: But to (ay that (alvauonts more J 5 o r r 1 • -r>i 
 
 feeurelj , andeajily to be hadin the Prote- fute, Ot fare Way tO balvation. X il€ 
 
 Pofiibility I think cannot be denied, 
 the Ignorants eipecialiyjbecauie they 
 hold the Found at ion, 2nd cannot fur- 
 vey the 'Building . And the Foundati - 
 on can deceive no man that r efts 
 upon it. But a fecure Way they 
 cannot goe, that hold with fuch 
 
 fhali rinde this no part ull Opinion, Luic corruptions, when they blOW 
 
 very plaine and reall Verity , That the *• f t i • i 
 
 Proceltant living according to his belief, them. NOW whether It be Wll- 
 
 dome, in fuch a Point as Salvation 
 is, to forfake a Church , in the which 
 the Ground of Salvation is firme , to 
 follow a Church, in which it is but 
 pofible one may be faVed, but very pro- 
 bable he may do worfe, if he look 
 not well to the Foundation, judge ye. 
 I am fure b S .Augufline thought it 
 
 fiant Paith , that's but their partial!. Opi 
 nion in their own behalf ? , ana of no force, 
 efpecially with Romane Cathottkes. I ea- 
 fily believe this latter part. That this, as 
 A.C. and the reff ufe the matter with 
 their Profeljtes , (hall be of little, or no 
 force with Romane C at holt kef . But it 
 wiii behoove them, that it bee of force. 
 For let any indifferent man weigh the 
 T^ecejfary Reqnifttes to Salvation, and he 
 
 is upon the fafer way to Heaven. And 
 as for my Confeffion , let them enforce it 
 as farre as they can againff me,io they ob. 
 ferve my Limitations, which if they do, 
 A.C. and his fellowes will (of all the 
 reffj have but little comfort in Inch a li- 
 mited Pefsibiltty. 
 
 b L.\.T)e r Bapt.cont,Don. c.q.Graviter 
 peccarent in rebut ad falutem anima per - 
 tinentibus , &c. to folo quod cert is incerta 
 praponerent 
 
 was not , and judged it a great fume , in Point of Salva* 
 '"re* * l0n ->f 0r a man to preferre incerta certis, uncertainties 
 prUiuftitU, & an d naked pofiibilities before an evident and certaine 
 pericuium wows Courje. And c B ell ar mine is of Opinion, and that in 
 
 ijljduciam™* the Point of Justification : That in regard of the uncer - 
 ta>n in fohfDei tainty of our oVm flight eoufneff ?, and of the danger of vaine 
 £ lor J > tutiflimu.m eft, ‘tis fafeft to repofe our T »hole truft in 
 nere Bellar. l the Mercy and Goodnejfe Gf God. And furely, if there 
 
 ^ nc f^ er way then another , as he Confelfes 
 Propofitio. there is, he is no wife man, that in a matter of fo 
 
 great 
 
; 2 Sj 
 
 great mom ent will not betake himfclfe to the fafeft 
 way. And therefore even you your felves in the 
 Point of (on dignity of Merit, though you write it, and 
 preach it boyftcroi vtothePeople; yctyouare con- 
 tent to dye, renouncing the ccndignity of all your 
 ownc A/mA,andtruft to (fhrijls. Now Purely, if you 
 will not venture to dye as you live, live and beleeve 
 in time, as you meane to die. 
 
 And one thing more, becaufc you bid Marke this , Num. 2. 
 let me remember to tell you for the benefit of others. 
 
 Vpon this very Point (That We acknowledge an honeft ig- 
 norant Papijl may be faVed ) you and your like worke 
 upon the advantage of our Charity , and your ownc 
 want of it, to abufe the weake. For thus I am told 
 you worke upon them. Toufee the Trotefiants (atleajl ' 
 many of them) confefje there may be fahation in our Qhurch * 
 
 We abfolutely deny there is fahation in theirs : Therefore it 
 is/afer to come to Ours, then to flay in theirs • to be where, 
 almojl all grant Salvation, then where the greater part of 
 the World deny it. This Argument is very prevailing 
 with men, that cannot weigh it, and with women 
 cfpecially,that are put in feare by „ . , .. , „ . ... , 
 
 * r . . J ) . . r r 1 /r % 1 J And ™ 1S P eece or Cunning to arhighc 
 
 violent ( tnough cauieleje) deny- the weake vas in.ufe in IfiJHn Martyrs 
 
 ing Heaven unto them. And fome t,me * £*pfdamfcimu &c. ad iracm. 
 
 P r 1 . 1 r diam fuam Evan<rdinm pertrabentes 
 
 of your party iince this, have let Ht mnm i. 
 
 out a Booke called Charity miftaken. lo * Cehemt trad>rmt,Orhm tju^«e r«i. 
 But Wide the d./.er folly gi.en 
 
 to it, this alone is (umcicnt to Con- ’cis) ad Iracundiam fmm Scclefiam per - 
 
 futeit; Fir ft ^ that in this our Chari - tr * hcnte l & v - 
 
 ty (what ever yours be) is not miftaken, unlefie the 
 
 Charity of the Church her fife were miftaken in the Cafe 
 
 ofthcVonatiJls,as{hz\\^ after appeare. Secondly, even f§.,3*.A 7 #. 3, 
 
 Miftaken Charity (if fiich it were)' is farre better then 
 
 none at all. And if the Miftaken be ours, the Notie is 
 
 yours.Y ea,but A, C. tells us fTbat this deny all of Salvation c, p , 6 s, 
 
 O o i is 
 
z§4 
 
 §> 55 
 
 S.Matth.18.17. 
 
 a And this is 
 
 of the Rom*» 
 Church. 
 
 is grounded upon Qharity , as yoert the like threats of 
 Chrifl,and the Holy Fathers . For there is hut one true 
 Faith, and one true Church } aid out of that there is no SaU 
 y at ion . c And he that yriU not heare the Qhurch y S. Matth . 
 18. let him be as a Heathen, and a Public ane ? Therefore 
 hefayes, 'tis more Charity to forename us oft 1 e danger , ly 
 thefe threats, then to let us runne into it, thorough a falfe 
 feeurity. ’Tis true, that there is but one true Faith, and 
 but one true Church: • But that one, both Faith , and 
 Church, is the a fat ho like Chriflian, not the Particular 
 proofed by the %oman. And this Catbolike Chriflian Church, he that 
 Creed, in which vvill not both heare and obey yea 3 and the Particular 
 
 Behefe of the Church , in which he lives too 3 lo larre as it in necefl 
 Cathoiike, not faries agrees with the Vniverfall, is in as bad conditi- 
 on as 4 Heathen and a Publican , and perhaps in 
 fome refpe&s worfe. And were we in this Cale, we 
 fliould thanke C. for giving us warning of our 
 danger. But 'tis not fo, For he thunders out all thefe 
 threats , and deny all of falvation, becaufe we joyne 
 not with the Roman Churchy in all things; as if her 
 Corruptions were part of the Cathoiike Faith of 
 Chrift. So the whole paflage is a mcere begging 
 of the Queftion, and then threatning upon it, without 
 all ground of Reafon or Charity. In the mcane time 
 
 b This is a free Confeflion of the Adver- • C- looke CO himfclfc, that in 
 
 faries Argument again!* themfeives, and hlS falle leCUrity, he runne not into 
 
 therefore is of force. C. p. 64. But t fo c danger, and lofTe of his owne 
 
 every Conreilion or Ad verlaries or others r1 • 0 1 -t 1 1 1 r 
 
 is to be taken with its Qualities, and lalvation, while he Would lecmetO 
 
 Conditions : If you leave our, or change take fuch care of OUrs. Blit though 
 thefe, you wrong the Confeflion, and »• a 'i • 1 
 
 then * tis of no force. And fo doth A. c. thls Argument p^evailes with the 
 
 here. And though BeiUrm . makes the weake, yet it is much ilroncer in 
 
 Confegisnoftbe Adverfary a note of the \ ciinnma then rhe rrnp force of 
 
 true Church. L. 4. dc Nctus Ecct.c. 1 6. cnc waning, men tne true 70 ce or 
 
 yet in the very beginning, where he layes it." For all Arguments Arc very 
 
 ^Ground, $ he laves i, m a plain* moov in 2 , that lay their around lip- 
 rallacie .4 {ecundum quta ad Jimphcner, J * 
 
 b the c Adyerjanes ( onfeflion 5 
 
 eipeciallv 
 
 on 
 
1 
 
 * 
 
 $. 37* 
 
 efpccially if 'it bee confefled, and avouched to bee 
 true. But if you would fpeake truly, and lay. Many 
 ( ProteJlants indeed confeffc, there is fahation polfible 
 to be attained in the Romane Church, 
 but yet they fay withall , that the 
 Errours of that Church are fo ma- 
 ny * (and fome fo great,as weaken 
 the Foundation) that iris very hard 
 to goe that way to Heaven, efpeci- 
 ally to them that have had the 
 Truth maniferted j the heart ofthis 
 Argument were utterly broken. 
 
 Be hides the force ofthis Argument 
 lyes upon two things, o//edire£tIy 
 Expreffed, the other but as upon 
 the By . 
 
 That which is exprejfed, is. We and our Adverfa- 
 lies confent, that there is lalvation to fome in the 
 mane Church. What ? would you have us as malicious, 
 (at leafl: as ralh) as your fclvcs are to us, and deny you 
 fo much , as poifibility of Salvation ? If we fhould, we 
 might make you in fome things ftraine for a Proofc ? 
 t But have not ■ earned Chrift , as either to return evill 
 
 for evill in thi ieadie courfe, cr to deny falvation to 
 fome ignorar filly foules, whofe humble peaceable 
 obedience m; xes them fafe among any part of men, 
 that profefie he Foundation, Cbritt; And therefore 
 feeke not to help our Caule by denying this comfort 
 to filly Chriftians,as you moft fiercely do , where you 
 can come to worke upon them. And this was an old 
 trick of the Vonatijls . Borin the Point of *\Baptifme 
 (Wl:ether that Sacrament was true in the Catholike Church 
 or in the part of Donat us ) they exhorted all to be bap- 
 tifed among them. Why? £eca r t both parts n-. I, 
 
 28/ 
 
 * For they are no meane DiiTerences that 
 are betweene us , by Bellarmincs owns 
 Confeflion. Agendum eft mn de rebus le- 
 ■vibus i fed de gravtfsimis gu&ftionibus 
 qua ad if fa Fidci fundament a pertinent. 
 &c. Bellarm. in prafat. Opertbus pr<z- 
 fixa.§. 3. And therefore the Errours in 
 them, and the Corruptions ot them can- 
 not bee of {mall Confequence , by your 
 owne Confeflion. Yes,by your owi.e in- 
 deed. Foryoufi^. C. fay full as muchaif 
 not more then BeUarmine. Thus Wc 
 Catholikes holdall points, in which Pro- 
 teftants differ from us in Dobfrine of 
 Faichjtobe Fundamental!, and necefl'ary 
 to bee Believed y or at lead notdenyed. 
 
 C- Relation of thefirft Conference, 
 p.28. 
 
 N u m. 3. 
 
 thatBaptifmeV ?, 
 
 rue among 
 
 Q 
 
 he 1 vh : w! 
 
 if? 
 
 
 W *11' 
 
feeVijb Sett mod unjuftly denyed the fmnd part , as 
 
 t Sfc verb apud S. + Augujlim delivers it. I would aske now. Had not 
 
 Djnanfias B«p~ ^e Orthodox true Bapcifme among them, becaufe the 
 
 & &Vos Donatifls denyed it in jurioufly ? Or Ihould the Ortho- 
 
 concedimus &c % j ox aaainft Truth, have denyed 'Baptifme , among the 
 
 L.ude'Btp.cm. ^ - L . J i i 
 
 i v<wAt.c, 3. vonatifts , either co cry quittance with them, or that 
 
 their Argument might not be theftronger, becaufc 
 
 both parts granted ? But Marke this , how farre you 
 
 runne from all common Principles of ChriftianTeace 
 
 as well as Chrijlian Truth , while you deny falvation 
 
 moft un juftly to us , from which you are farther off 
 
 yourfelves. Befides, if this were, or could be made 
 
 a concluding Argument, I pray, whydoenotyou 
 
 believe with us in the Point of th cEuchartft? For all 
 
 Corpus ChrijH maniac at ur in Ccena &c> t Ant km cdtlcfti fidcS agree in the Faith 
 &fpirituali rat tone : Adedium auttm quo Corpus Chrifii 
 Accipitur (£■ manducatur in Ccena , Tides eft. Eccl. Angl, 
 
 Arc, 2 8, 
 
 After a Ipirituall manner by Faith on our behaife , and by 
 the working of the Holy Ghoft on the bebalfe of Chrift. 
 
 Fulk.in 1 Cor.ii.p.^zS. 
 
 Chrift us fe cum omnibus bonis fuis in Ccena ojfert, & nos 
 turn recipimus fide C^c.Calv.4. Infi.c. 17. § . 5 ,Et Hooker. 
 
 67. p.176. 
 
 And lay not you the lame with us ? Spirit ualis maniac a- 
 £t0 -> ^ U£ per osinimxm fit 3 ad Chrifii Carnem in Sacramen- 
 to pertingit, Cajet. Tom . 2. Opufc, de Euchar. Trail. 2, 
 
 C*p. s. 
 
 Sed fpir it uali ter 3 idefi , invifibiliter 3 & per virtutem Spirt - 
 tusSanfli . Thom. p.3.7.75. A a, ad i um . 
 
 Spirit ualit er m. indue andus efi per Fidem & Char it at em. 
 
 Tena .in Heb . 1 $.Difficu!tate 8. 
 
 1 1 would have no man troubled at the words Truly and 
 Rjallj. For that Bleffed Sacrament received as it ought , j 
 
 Co , e » Truly and Xjally exhibit and apply the Body ftantiatiom which m any 
 and the Blood o- Chri# to the Receiver. So Bvhop fVhite - - ' 
 
 in his Defence again# T.W.F . Edit. London. l 6 jy.p. 
 
 ^38. And Calvin. in r C or - 1 0 -?. Tahdatur. &c. And a manner of this Prc- 
 againe in 1 Cor ,1 1.2.1. Aleaue enim ALortis tantuztt & Re- r „ ~ r> r 1 fl . * , . 
 farretl ionis fua beneficium nobis (fieri Cbrifius 3 fed Corpus * cnCv » ConJubfta>L l at 10)1 , 
 iofum in.ejtiQpafius efi > & refurrexit. Conclude Realiter which more deny. If 
 
 (at vulg'o loquuntur) hoc <?/?, Verd nobis in Coend datur this ar<riimrnr hr ernnd 
 Chrifii Corfm , nt fit Animis mfiris in Mum S*l»u- , ar g Umcl «DC gOOd, 
 
 rem, then even for this 
 
 Con fen c 
 
 u 
 
 of the Qmrch of Eng- 
 land, That in the moft 
 IBleffed Sacrament , the 
 Worthy receiver is by 
 his * Faith made fpiri- 
 tually partaker of the 
 true and real! Body and 
 ndlood of Chrifl t truly , 
 and really , and of all the 
 Benefits of his Paffion. 
 Your (Rfimane Catholtkes 
 adde a manner of this 
 his Prefence , Tranfub- 
 ftantiation.wh.ich many 
 
 cceiver. So Biihop white 1 1 1 r 7 y 
 
 in his Defence again# T. W. F. Edit. London, \ 6 \y.p. Oeny* and the EutbcrafiS 
 
 ~ t -r \ J M. 1 % r 1 • TA 
 
a 8 7 
 
 Confent, it is fafer Communicating with the Church 
 of England, then with the foman, or Lutheran • Be- 
 caufe all agree in thisTrwt/;, not in any other Opium. 
 
 Nay t SWe;? himfelfe, and he a . „ . 
 
 - r i a i r 7 t r* \ Hoe totmn 'pcndtt ex Frtncipus A4eta~ 
 
 very Learned Ad vcrl ary (what lay p h yfi™ & phiiofopkcis, & ad Fidei Do - 
 you to this A.C? doth Truth force ^ rinam non oft neceffarium. Suarez, in 
 
 this from him?) Confeflesplainely, 3 ' T t 3 om - Di JP ul - 5 °'§-*- 
 t That to Tele ve Tranfubftantiation is not fimply nece ary A -C- P- 64.65, 
 to Salvation \nd yet he knew well the Church had 
 Determiner it. And * Marmine 3 after an intricate, te- + Bellar. z.$. de 
 dious, and almolF inexplicable Difcourfe about an 2 uch f : c - l8 -§: 
 AdduBive ConVerfon (A thing which neither Divinity 3 ^ s llls coIllsl ~ 
 nor Dhilofophy ever heard of till then) is atlafl forced to 
 come to this: a WhatfoeVeris corner- 
 
 r -if r r. 1 Sod quid'jptid fit de AF locjttendi, li- 
 
 ning the manner and jonnes Oj Jpecch , lad tenendum eft , Cenztrfionem Fanis 
 
 illud tenendum eft, tins is to be held & v j ni i ?f° r !" s ebri- 
 
 7 1 r r r 1 1 1 J- e JF e f u bft an tialcm fed arcanum & in- 
 
 that the CoriVerJwn of the Bread and efjabilem^ & nuliis naturalibus Conver - 
 
 Wine into the Tody and the Blood of fiontbus per omnU fimilem. &e. Beliar. 
 
 Chrijl, isfuhUantidl, bnt after a /eon 
 
 and ineffable manner y and not like in all things to any naturall 
 
 ConVerfon whatfoeVer. Now if he had left out Qmverfon y 
 
 and affirmed only Chrifts reall Prefence there, after a 
 
 myfterious ? and indeed an ineffable manner, no max 
 
 could have fpoke better. And therefore, if you will 
 
 force the Argument alwayes to make that the 
 
 lafeft way of Salvation , which differing Parties agree 
 
 on • why doe you not yeeld to the force ofthe fame 
 
 Argument , in the Beliefe of the Sacrament, one of the 
 
 moft immediate mcanes of Salvation , where not 
 
 onely the moft 3 but all agree • And your owne great- 
 
 efl: Clarkes can not cell what to fay to the Contrary? 
 
 I fpeake here for the force of. the Argument; ^ 11 M ' • 
 which certainly in it fehe is nothing, though bv 
 A. C. made of great account ; For he layes, Tis a 
 Confeflion of Adverfaries extorted by Truth, luff ns 
 
 * Petilian 
 
z83 
 
 * Sed quid *t a 
 magnum firma- 
 mcntum vanita- 
 tis veslrz tn hue 
 Jententia efje or- 
 bitramini , ut ad 
 hoc tibi cernii- 
 nandam putares 
 Epiftolam quo 
 qua ft recenuus 
 in dnimis Lege - 
 tium remaneret , 
 breviter refpott - 
 
 tie o.&c. S. Aug. 
 L . a . cont , Lit. 
 'Tetil. c. 108. 
 Andhere^.C.ad 
 hoc fibi putavit 
 terminandaCol- 
 lationem : fed 
 fruftra ut appa- 
 rent. Num.O. 
 
 i§.35-N-3 
 
 § p' 
 
 * Petilian the Donatifi bragd in the cafe of Paptifme. But 
 in truth, as nothing: For the Syllogifme, whichic 
 frames, is this. The Pafifis and the Protejiaiits , which are 
 the Tarties differing, agree in this ? That there is Sdvatim 
 pofiihle to he found in the PsOmant Church . Put in Point of 
 Faith and Salvation * tis fafeft for a man to take that Way, 
 which the differing Parties agree on Fiber fore * tis Jaf eft fora 
 man to he, a d continue in the %omane Church. To the 
 Major Proportion then j I obferve fir Ft, that though ma- 
 ny Learned Protefiants grant this ,all doe not.And then 
 that Propofition is not TJniverJalf nor able to iuiiaine 
 the Condufim. For they doe not in this all agree • nay I 
 doubt not ? but there are feme Protejlants , which can, 
 and do as ftifly,and as churlifhly deny them Salvation 9 
 as they doe us. And A. C. fhould doe well to confider, 
 whether they doe it not upon as good reafon at lealt. 
 Next for the Minor Propofition • Namely, That in point of 
 Faith and Salvation, ’ tis Jafejlfor a man to take that way, 
 Which the Jdverfary confeffsfr the Differing Parties agree 
 on.\ fay, that is no MetaphyficaliPrmciple,biit a bare ( Con- 
 tingent Propofition, s\nd may be true, or falfc,2.s the matter 
 is to which it is apply ed,and fo of no jiecefjary truth in it 
 felfe,nor able to ltadein the ( jonclufion . Now that this 
 Propofition ( In point of Faith and Salvation, * tis fafett for 
 a man,to take that way, which the difftr'v ^Parties ag< ce on,or 
 which the Adverjary ConfeJJes ) hath no ftrength in it 
 felfe,but is fometimes true, and lomctimcs falje, as the 
 C/Platter is, about which it is converfanr, is mo ft evi- 
 dent. Fir Hi by Reafon : Becaufe Confent of difagtee- 
 ing Parties, is neither P^ile, nor Proof e of Truth. For 
 Herod and Pilate, difagreeing Parties enough , yet 
 agreed againft Truth it JelJe. But Truth rather is , or 
 fliould be the Pffe to frame ,if not to force Agree- 
 ment. And Jecondly, by the two Injlances f before given. 
 For in the Inllance betvveene the Orthodox Church then, 
 
 and 
 
1 
 
 I 
 
 and the VomtiUs > ihh P rope fi tion is moli falfc ; For 
 it was a Point of Fmh , and to of Salvation 7 that they 
 were upon, Namely, the right ufe, and adminiftratiori 
 of the Sacrament of ® apt if me. And yet had it beene 
 fafeft to take up that way , which the differing Parts 
 agreed on, or which the ad verfe Part Confeflcd, men 
 muff: needs have gone with the 'Donatifls againfl the 
 Church . And this muff fall out as oft as any Heretick 
 will cunningly take that way againfl the Churchy 
 which the Donatifls did, if this 1 Principle fhall goe 
 for currant. But in the fecond Inffance, concern- 
 ing the Eucharift , a matter of Faith , and fo of 
 Salvation too , the fame Proportion is mofttrue. 
 
 And the ^ eafon is , becaufe here the matter is 
 true ; Namely , The true , and read participation of 
 the r Body and ( Biood of Chrijl in that Biffed Sacra - 
 merit , But in th t former the matter wasfalfe, Name- 
 ly, That Rebaptizption was neceffary after Baptijme 
 formally given by the Church. So this Propoflti- 
 on (In Foint of Faith and Salvation it is fafejl for a 
 man to take that way , which the differing Parties agree 
 in • or Vvhich the Adverfary Confeffes J is , you fee 9 
 both true and falfe , as men have cunning to ap- 
 ply it, and as the matter is, about which it is Con- 
 verlant. And is therefore no Propofition able , or 
 fit to fettle a Conclufion iu any iober mans minde, 
 till the <- Matter contained under it, bee well (can- 
 ned , and examined. And yet as muchufe as you 
 would make of this Propofltion to amaze the 
 wcake, your felvcs dare not ftand to it, no not 
 where the matter is undenyably true , as fhall 
 appeare in divers Particulars befide this of the 
 Eucbarifl. 
 
 But before I adde any other particular Inftan- Num 7 j. 
 
 P p ces 
 
 
 
 
 i 
 
ipo 
 
 A C.p,6]' 
 
 Num, 6. 
 A, C, f,6 $ • 
 
 §-ii' 
 
 ccs , I xnufl: tell you what A. C. faycs to the two 
 former. For he tels us , Tbefc two are nothing like 
 the prefent cafe . Nothing? That is ftrange indeed. 
 Why in the firft of thofe Cafes concerning the ®o- 
 natifls , your Proportion is falfc* And fo farre from 
 being fafejl , that it was no way fafe for a man to 
 take that way of Belief e, and fo of Salvation , which 
 both parts agreed on. And is this nothing ? Nay, 
 is not this full, and home to the prefent caie ? For 
 the prefen t cafe is this, and no more. That it is Jafeft 
 taking that Ip ay of Belie fe , tuhich the differing Parties 
 agree on : or which the Aaverfary Confiffs . And in 
 the fecond of thofe Cafes concerning the Eucbarijl, 
 your Propofition indeed is true, not by the Truth 
 which it hath in it felfe, Me taph fealty, and in Ab- 
 ftratt , but only in regard of the matter , to which it 
 isapplyed ; yet there you defert your ownc Propo- 
 rtion, where it is true, And is this nothing? Nay, 
 is not this alfofull, and home to the pieienr cafe, 
 rnce it appearcs your Proportion is fuch as your 
 felves dare not bide by, either when it is true, or 
 when it is falfe ? For in the Cafe of Baptifme ad- 
 miniftred by the Bonatifl , the propofition is falfe, 
 and you dare not bide by it, for Truths fake. And 
 in the cafe of the Eu chart ft , the Proportion is true, 
 and yet you dare not bide by it, for the Qmrch of 
 Romes fake. So that Church ( with you ) cannot erre, 
 and yet will not fuffer you to maintaine Truth , 
 which not to doe is fome degree of Errour, and that 
 no fmall one. 
 
 Well, A. C. goes on, and gives his Reafons why 
 tlicfe two Inftances arc nothing like the prefent Caie. 
 For in thefe Cafes (faith hee ) there are annexed other 
 Reafons of certainly knotpne perill of damnable Schp/me 
 
 and 
 
I 
 
 b 
 
 S-3f- , 
 
 and Her e fie y uoich wee fhould incurre by confentmg to 
 the Donatiffs deny all of true 'Baptifine among Catholikes : 
 and to the Proteflants denyall , or doubting of the true 
 fubfl ant tall P refence of ChriH in the Euchar fi. But 
 in this Qafe of PyjolYuig to live and dye hi the 
 Cathchhe ( J\omane Qhurch , there is confe ffdly no Juch 
 per ill of any damnable Here fie , or Schijme , or any 
 other fine. Here I have many Particulars to obferve 
 upon A. C. and you fliail have them,as briefly as lean 
 fetthem downe. 
 
 And fir f I cake A. C. at his word, that in Panel. t& 
 the cafe of the Bomtijl , fhould it bee followed, 
 there would bee knowne perill of damnable 
 Schifme , and Herefie , by denying true Baptifme to 
 be in the Orthodoxe Church , For by this you may 
 fee , what a found proportion this is (That where two 
 Parties are dijjenting , it is fafefl believing that in which 
 both Parties agree p or which the yfdverfitry confe ffes ) for 
 here you may lee by the cafe of th cVonatitt, is con- 
 fefTed, it may leade a man , that will umVerfally 
 leaneto it, into bioWne and damnable Schifme and He- 
 re fie. An excellent Guide, Ipromife you, this, is 
 it not ? 
 
 Nor fecondly, are thefe, though A. calles them p m & . ±2 
 
 fo, annexed Byajons • Forhee calls themfo^ but to 
 blaunch the matter , as if they fell updn the pro- 
 position ah extra , accidentally, and from with- 
 out, Whereas they arc not annexed, or pinned on, 
 but flow naturally out of the Propoji tion it felfe. For 
 the Proportion would feeme to be Metaphyficall , and is 
 applyable indifferently to any Common Belie fe of difTen- 
 ting Parties, be the point in difference what it will. 
 
 Therfore if there be any thing Hercticall, Scbifmaticall 9 
 or any wayevi//inthe ( ?Wz£ ? this pfopofition being 
 neither Vniyerfally , nor neceffarily true, muff needes 
 
 P p % calf 
 
 
ZpZ 
 
 Tun ft. %l 
 A,C' p. 66, 
 
 §• 35. 
 
 cafthim that relyes upon it, upon all thefe Rocks of 
 HerejUySchifmepx whatever elfe followcs the matterof 
 the Proportion. 
 
 Thirdly , A.C doth extremely ill to joyne thefe Caf- 
 fes of the Dotiatifts for Baptifmc 5 and the Trotefiant for 
 thtEucbarifl together, as he doth. For this Propo- 
 fition in the firit concerning th c Donat itts, lcadcs a 
 man ( as is confefTed by himfelfe ) into knownt and 
 damnable Schifme and Herefie : but by A . C s . good 
 leave the later concerning the Trotejiants , and the 
 Eucbarifts nothing fo. For I hope A. Q, dare not 
 
 fay 3 That to believe the true * ful - 
 * c^terum hi* tbfur&utibus fxkUtts , fantiall Vtcfcnccoi Chnft , isei- 
 
 Lntulemque Corporis /An^inis Do - thcr knowne, or damnable bchtfme , er 
 mini Communicationem , <jt**Mfacris pier e fie. Now as many , and as 
 
 ptffi, falter recifh. CaWm.i 4. *jf. Learned t Trotefiant s believe and 
 c. 17. §.19. tnaintainc this , as doe believe 
 
 poffibilky of Salvation (a, Wore 
 Bt hss partkipts fubihncisc e jus /*#>/«- is limited) in the %omcme Church : 
 
 Therefore they in that not guil- 
 ty of cither kno^ne^or damnable Schifme 9 or Herefie y 
 though the Vonatijls were of both. 
 
 Fourthly^whctcas he impofes upon the ProteHants , 
 The deny all or doubting of the true and T^eall ^Pre fence of 
 Chrift in the Eucharijl ; \ic. is a great deale more boId,then 
 true, in that alfo:For underftand them right, and they 
 certainly 3 ncither deny 3 nor doubt it. For as for the Luthe « 
 ram (as they arc commonly called)their very Opinion 
 of ConfubHantiation makes it knowne to the world , 
 that they neither deny,nor doubt of his true ) and derail 
 Tre fence there. And they are TroteBants. And for 
 the Cahmfis , if they might bee rightly under- 
 flood, they alfo niaii.taine a raoft true and Teall 
 Trefence , though they cannot permit their judge- 
 ment to be Tranfubflantiated. And they are Trotejaams 
 
 mHS,lbid,%,rx. 
 
 t 3* 
 
 TunB' 4 . 
 
 t/1,C.p. 66, 
 
 too. 
 
*93 
 
 a Bellarm. Z. i. dcTuchar.c 2,§. Quin* 
 tddicit. Sacrament arii Jtpe dicunt re<*lc 
 Corpus Cbrifii tn ['an a adeffe,fed realicer 
 adefit nttnquctm dicunt 0 quod le^enm, nifi 
 forte loquuntur de Cocnk qut fit tn Cm- 
 to, &c. 
 
 And that he meanes te brand Proteftants 
 under the name of Sacrament Arii , is 
 plaine. For he fayes the Counccll of 
 Trent oppofed this word rediter , Fig- 
 mento Cdvinifiico s to the Calviniftkail 
 figment. Ibid . 
 
 §■ 3 ?- 
 
 too. And this is fo knownc a Truth, that a Sellar - 
 mine confeffes it. For hec faith , 
 
 ! Trotejlants do often grant, that the true 
 and reail Body of Chrift is in the E«- 
 charift : But he adds, That they ne~ 
 
 Ver fay ( fo farre as he bath readfThat 
 it is there Truly and Really, unleffe 
 they fpeake o) the Supper , which jhall 
 be in Heaven. Well, firft if they 
 grant that the true , and Sgall Body 
 of Chrift , is in that Blefled Sacra- 
 ment (as Bellarmine confeffes they doe, and tis moA 
 true) then J.C . is falfe,who charges all the Trote- A£.j 6^ 
 fiants with deniall, or donbtfulneffe in this Point. And 
 fecondly , Bellarmine himlelfe alio flic wes here his Tgwo- 
 rance, or his Malice - Ignorance, if he knew it not : 
 
 Malice , if he would no: know it. For the Calvinijls , at 
 leaft they which follo\ / Cafoine himfelf, do not oncly 
 believe that the true and reail Body of Chrift is received 
 in the EuchariH, but that it is there, and that we par- 
 take of itVerd&'realiter, which are b owne D Calv .*# u Cor\ 
 
 words; and yet Sellar mw boldly affirmes, that to his &in i.omi* 
 reading, nooneSroteflant l cVeraffirmeit, And I, for a^realitet.r^ 
 my part, cannot believe : Bellarmine had read Cal- Nnmt ^ 
 
 oth fb frequently and fb 
 can that Place by any Art 
 ? wrefted from CalYme's 
 of Chrift in and at the bltf- 
 to any Supper in Heaven 
 feft it is, that Quod legerim } 
 otferve Bellarmine t o Ex*- 
 but in the very c Chapter cBeIIar ; £.x.<& 
 ’laces out of Cahine , in f'sZu^ddX- 
 at we receive in the Sa- 
 od of Chrift Fere, truiy. 
 
 Pn ? So 
 
 Yme , and very carefully, 
 mainly Oppole him. 
 be fliifced, or by any l 
 true meaning of the Sr 
 fed Sacrament of the Each 
 whatfoever. Butmoft 
 for ought I have read, \ 
 cufehim. For he him 
 going before, quotes foi 
 which he fayes exprefly , 
 crament the Body and the 
 
‘ S*3« 
 
 ^ - * * 
 
 So Calvine fayes it foure times, a nUBeOamme quotes 
 the places • and yet he fayes in the very next Chapter, 
 That never any Proteftant Paid fo, to his Reading; 
 And for the Qhurcb of England, nothing is more plaine 5 
 then that it believes and teaches the true and read Ere- 
 
 fence of fbriH in the * Eucharift ? un- 
 leflfe ^.C.can make a BodypoBody, 
 and Blood, no Blood (as perhaps he 
 can by T ranfubjlantlon ) as well as 
 Bread, no Bread, & Wine, no Wine. 
 And the Church of England is Prote- 
 ftant too. So Prote ft ants oi all forts 
 maintain a true and /call Erefence of 
 Chrift in the Eucharift , and then, 
 where’s any known, or damnable He- 
 refe here? As for the Learned ofthofe 
 jealous men that died in this Caufe 
 in Q .J/aries dayes , they denied not 
 the fteall E refence fimply taken, but 
 as their Oppojites forced Tran/ulfan - 
 tiation upon them, as if that, and the Ejall Erefence had 
 beene all one. Whereas all the * Ancient Christians ever 
 believed the one, and none but moderne and fuperftiti - 
 ous ChriJUans believe.the other- If they do believe it, for 
 I ,for my part, doubt they do not. And as for the'Tto- 
 learned in thofe times, and all times, their zeale ( they 
 holding the Foundation)may eat out their Ignorances, and 
 leave them fafe. Now that the Learned Eroteftants in 
 QJl Varies dayes, did notdenie, nay did maintaine the 
 Jftedl Erefence , will manifeftly appeare. For when the 
 Qmmifiioners obtruded to Jo. Frith the Prefence of 
 Chrift ’s naturall Body in the Sacrament ; and that 
 f lo.Fo xMar- without all figure, or fimilitude: lo. Frith acknow- 
 tjrolog. T o. 2. ledges, t That the inward yuan doth as Verily receive Chrift’ s 
 London. 1 5 97- <2ody as the outward man receives the Sacrament with his 
 
 »** UMl- 
 
 * The j Body of Chrift is given, taken, 
 and eaten in the Supper (of the Lord) 
 onely after an Heavenly and Spiritual! 
 manner. And the meanes whereby the 
 *Body of Chrift is received and eaten , is 
 Faith. Sect. ring. Art. 1 %, So here’s 
 the Manner of Eranfubftantiation deni- 
 ed, but the Body of Chrft twice affirm- 
 ed. And in the prayer before Confecrati- 
 on^ thus, Grant us Gracious Lord Jo to 
 eat the TlcJh of thy deare Sonne Jeftss 
 f hr ft, and to drinkehis Blood, &c. And 
 againe, in the 1'econd Prayer or Thanks- 
 giving after Confecration, thus. We give 
 thee Thanks, for that thou doji vouchfafe 
 to feed m which have duly received thefe 
 holy C JAty ft erics with the fpirituall food of 
 the mr> ft precious Body and Blood of thy 
 Sonne our Saviour Jej m Chrftj 
 
 1 
 
4 
 
 or in any falfe Worfbip that attends it. For fo Eli- 
 as lived among the Yen Tribes , and was not Sche- 
 matically $*Reg. 17. And after him Eli'Zjeux , a^Rcg. 
 3. But then neither of them either countenanced 
 the Schifme , or worfhipped the (falyes in Van , or 
 in Bethel. And fo alfo befide theft Tropkets , did 
 thoft Thoufands live in a Schematic ad Church , yet 
 neyer bowed their knee to Baal , 3 -fyg- 19. But *tis 
 quite another thing to live in a SchifmatF'Z Chu 
 and Comm icate \ T ith it in the -cbijm ano a* 
 all the Super t .. m and Corruptions , which tha Chuich 
 teaches, nay to live and die in them. For, certaLiy 
 here no man can fo live in a Schematic all Church , 
 but if he be of capacity enough, and underftand it, he 
 rnuft needs be a Formal! Schifmatick , or an Inyofoed 
 One, if he underftand it not. And in this cafe the Churcl 
 of Rome is either farre worle,or more cruell then tlv 
 Church of lfrael,z\cn under Ahab and was .T he 
 
 Symgogue indeed was corrupted a long time, and in a 
 great degree. But I do not finde,chat this Do&rine, You 
 mujl ( acrifice in the high places : Or this, You may not go 
 and worfbip at the one Altar in Ierufalem 3 was cither 
 taught by the Trtefls, or maintained by the TrophetSytdt 
 enjoyned the people by the Sanedrim : Nay,can you 
 (hew me when any living there devoutly accor- 
 ding to the Law, was ever punifhed for omitting the 
 One of thefe, or doing the Other ? But the Qhurch of 
 Rome hath fblcmnly decreed her Srrours : And erring^ 
 hath yet decreed withall , That fhe cannot erne. And 
 impofed upon Learned men, difputed and impro- 
 bable Opinions, TranfubUantiation, Purgatorie , and 
 Forbearance of the Cup in the blefled Eucbarift, even 
 againft the expreffe Command of our Saviour, and 
 that for ^Articles of Faith . And to keepc off Vifobe - 
 dunce ^ what ever the Corruption be, fhe hath bound 
 
 Qn u p 
 
 3. Reg. 1 7. 
 
 3-Reg.i^.jg, 
 
 ! 
 
 
 
 
29 8 
 
 S'. 
 
 3-.Reg.13. ii. 
 
 Jfvrwf S> rrV *• * ►»'»' r*’ r ^ r.wr. v 
 
 nofcatis quod ipfi ftint ret , de tide noftra 
 opt 1 me jud leant. illtrum irtfeCles 
 
 baptize. I Hi meos ( quod ab fit) recipiunt 
 baptizates t qu* omninonm facer cnt> ft in 
 2? apt tfnto nojiro culpa* alt qua* agnevif- 
 fent. Videte ergo qnoddamus, quam fan 
 
 up her Decrees upon paine of Excommunication y and all 
 that followcs upon it. Nay, this is not enough , un. 
 leffc the fagot be kindled to light them the way. This 
 then may be enough for us t© leave Rome, though the 
 old FFropbet forfooke not Ifrael, $.Reg. ij. And there- 
 fore in this prefent cafe there’s perill, great pcrill of 
 damnable both Schifme and Herefe, and other finne, 
 by living and dying in the Romane Faith , tainted with 
 fo many fuper Bit ions , as at this day it is, and their 
 
 Tyrannic to boot. So that here I 
 
 ♦ Pet dianus dixit, Venite ad Ecclefiam may anfwer tA. C. juft as *S. xA%* 
 
 popuii, & aufugtte Tradttores ( ica Or- g u fH ne anfwered Petilian the Dona* 
 
 thodoxos turn appellaviE ) ft cuw nfdem ® i - . r r 
 
 perire non vuiti*. x 1 am ut facile cog* tijt^ in trie rore~named cale Oi Bap- 
 
 tifme . For when Petilian pleaded 
 the Concefsion of his Adverfaries, 
 That Baptifme y as the Donatifls ad* 
 miniftred it , yeas good and layM. 
 
 r *1 't'l't-C If J'V wvvrw* jvwww- J * O -* 7 * 
 
 Hum fit, quod ddlruerc metuit Sacrile- and thence inferred ( juft as the Is* 
 
 guslmmicus. S.hju& nfpc^Sk doth j nft j ^ w 
 
 Htreticorum , fed C hrifii , pent in For - With hU Cott * 
 
 nicatonbus , Jdolelatru , V eneficu, &c. gregation. then With the Church . S . .d«- 
 approbamus B apttfmum non eorum , fed * g, p *r j • t t 
 
 Chrifti. Omnes enimifU, inter quos & gujtine anlwerS j rM? indeed dp" 
 
 Htretici _ >»/• , feut didt Jpofitius : among Htreticks r Baptifme ■ 
 
 Resnum Dei non poffidebunt , e/c. * ,®. * V rT 
 
 Auguft. z. 2. zfr. P etiliani, f°, not as it u the baptifme of Here* 
 
 c\ i © 8. ticks fut as it is the Baptifme of Chrifl. 
 
 Juft as xce approve the Baptifme of 
 
 Adulterers , Idolaters 3 Witches y and yet not as lit theirs ; 
 
 a Gal.v.ip 2o. ^ ^ ^ thrifts Baptifme. For none of thefc 5 jfor 
 
 2i. all their Baptifme , Jhall inherit the Kingdome of 
 
 X^nlfquod And the Apeffle reckons Htreticks among them) 
 
 defiruere metui • *Ga!at. 5. And againe afterwards : It is not there - 
 
 mtu fed chriftt; f ore yours ( faith t Saint Augufline) ytkich ypee feare 
 
 quod & m fa- ^ x . ri -n i t ' . f 
 
 criiegis per fe to dejtroy , Lhrijts , which , among the Sacn- 
 
 fMum efl. Uglm , ^ of y and in it felfe } /;o/y. Now you fiiall 
 u *’ 7 ? fee how full this comes home to our Petilianift A. £. 
 
 rfor 
 
§‘} 1 - *99 
 
 (for hce is one of the Contraders of die Church 
 of Chnft to Rente , as the Vonatijls confined it to 
 Africke ) And he cries out, That a f Tofibihty of Sal 
 Vation 3 is a free Confefion of the Adverf dries y and is of 
 force again fl them } and to bee thought extorted from 
 them by force of Truth it felfe . I Anfwer. I doe in- 
 deed for my part (leaving other men free to their 
 ownc judgement ) acknowledge a Pofsibility of 
 Salvation in the Romane Church. But fo ? as that 
 which I grant to Romanifls > is not as they arc 
 Romanifis 3 but. as they are Qbriflians , that is 3 as 
 they believe the Creed , and hold the Foundation 
 . Chritt himfelfe, not as they affociatc themfeives 
 wittingly and knowingly to the grofie Superftitions 
 of the Romifh Church. Nor doe I fearc to deftroy 
 quod ipforum eft , that which is theirs , but yet l dare 
 not proceed fo roughly t as with theirs, or for theirs 
 to deny, or weaken the Foundation 3 which is Chrifts , 
 even among them . and which is 5 and remaines holy 
 even in the midft of their Superftitions- And I am wil- 
 ling to hope there arc many among them , which 
 keep within that Church, and yet wiflh the Superfti- 
 tions abolifhcd which they know, and which pray to 
 God to forgive their errours in what they know not 2 
 and which hold the Foundation firme, and live accor- 
 dingly, and which would have all things amended 
 that are amifTe 3 A~ere it in their power. And to fuch 
 I dare riot den a Pofibility of Salvation 3 for chat 
 which is Chri h in them , though they hazzard 
 them! elves ex ernely by keeping fo clofe to that, 
 which is Sup ' jlition > and in the Cafe of Images , 
 comes too r xrt Idolatry Nor can A. C. fhift this ^c.p.6.6. 
 off by add it g, living and dying in the Romane Church . 
 
 For this living and dying in the Romane Church , 
 
 ( as is before exprefled ) cannot take away the 
 
 Pofsibility* 
 
300 
 
 §-V- 
 
 Poffibility of Salvation from them which believe , 
 and repent of whadoever is errour, or finne in them, 
 
 be it finne knowne to 
 
 f For though will make Donatus * and from 
 
 him the Donatifts, to be guilty of an impious Herefie (I 
 doubt he meanes Arrianifme # though he name it not ) in 
 making the Sonne of God idle then the Father, and the 
 Holy Gholt leffe then the Sonne. L.^.de Haref.Har, 14. 
 yet theie things are moll manifeft cut of S .Aug. concer- 
 ning them, who lived with them both in time and place, 
 and underlfood them, and their Tenets farre better then 
 Prateolus could. 
 
 And hrll, S. Aug. tels us concerning them : Arriani , 
 
 Datris, o Eilii, Qr Spirit us San EH, diver fas fubftantias 
 ejje dicunt . Donat if a autem unamTnnitatis fubftanti - 
 am confitentur. So they are no Arrians. 
 
 Secondly, Si alicjui corum minor em F ilium ejfe dixe * 
 runt qudm Pater eft, ejuftem tamen fubftantia non negd- 
 rmt. But this is but ft aliqui, it any • io ’ewas douot- 
 full, this too, though PraieoDs delivers it politively. 
 
 Thirdly , Plurimi verb in its hoc fe dicunt, omnmo cre- 
 dere de Pat re, & Filio , & Spiritu SanEio # quod Cathdica 
 credit Etc left a. T^ecipfa cum Hits vertitur fthtaftio, fed FouuddtlQH (dS,for OUght 
 
 deioh Commumone infcclicitcr litigmt, f.De Jola. , knOW, the t T> 0 mtlfts 
 Gnely about the Vmon with the Church. Therefore - - ? J 
 
 they erred not in Fundamental! Points of Faith. And 
 
 Laltly, All that can farther be laid againlf them , is , 
 
 That feme of them, to win the Goths to them, when they 
 were powerfully faid, Floe fe (fredere quod & illi C re- 
 dun t. Now the Goths (for the moll J were Arrians. But 
 then, faith S.Aug, they were but nonnulli. Come of them. 
 
 And of this fome it was no more Certaine, then ficut au- 
 divimus , as we have heard, S. Aug . knew it not. And 
 then if 
 thori tdte 1 
 
 didijfc after it ur y de cujus parte feejjegloriantur. S Aug. 
 
 Epift. 50. W here Prateolus is agame deceived ; for he 
 i'ayes expreily,that Donatus affirmed the Sonne to be lefle 
 then the Father.. Impius tile afterebat , &c. But then 
 indeed, ( and which perchance deceived Prateolus jbelide 
 Donatus the founder of this Herefie, there was another 
 Donatus, who lticceeded Afajorinus at (farthage, and he 
 was guiltvofthe Herefie, wlxidvEPrateolus mentions 3 ZT 
 extant feripta ejus ubi apparet, as S. Aug, confeffes,Z,.i. 
 de Hard. Har. 69. But then S.Aug. adds there alfo, 
 nec facile in its quifquam, that lcarce any of the Donatifis 
 
 did io much j* know, that this 2W held that Opi- fave j Therefore a 'Do- 
 moil, much lefle did they believe it themlelves. S.Aug . > 
 
 ibid. J natijt heretofore might. 
 
 For 
 
 them, or be it not. But 
 then perhaps AC , will 
 reply, that if this be fo, 
 I mull then maintaine, 
 that a Donatijl alfo , 
 living and dying in 
 Schilme, might be fa- 
 yed* To which I an- 
 fwer two wayes.Rry?, 
 that a plaine hone/i 
 Donatiji , having ( as is 
 confeffed ) true Bap* 
 tifme, and holding the 
 
 j j 
 
 did) and repenting of 
 what ever was finne 
 in him, and would 
 have repented of the 
 Schifme , had it beenc 
 known to him, might 
 
 f it were true of fome, yet Majorum fuorum c f J SiCOnMv that in 
 
 ate convincunt ur ; fluid nec Donatus ipfe fic ere- . * J) 
 
 this Particular, the 1{q- 
 manift and the 'Donatijl 
 differ much * And chat 
 therefore it is not ofnc, 
 ceffary c6fequence,that 
 if a %omanijt now Cup- 
 on the Conditions be- 
 fore exp relied ) may be 
 
ft§. 21,2V. i&c 
 
 S- 55- ■ 5 0! 
 
 For in regard of the Schi/me the Donatijl was in, one 
 idpeft worfe , and in greater danger of damnation 
 then the %oman ijl now is : And in an other refpedt 
 better, and in lefle dangcr.The Donatijl was in greater 
 danger of damnation, if youconfider theSchifmeit 
 felfe then • for they brake from the Orthodox Church 
 without any caufe given them. And here it doth not 
 follow 3 if th c^omamft have a Doftibility of Salvation 5 
 therefore a Donatijl hath.Butif you confider the Cauje 
 of the Schifme now, then the Donatijl was in lefle 
 danger of Damnation then the ^manijl is ; Becaufe 
 the ( jhurch of Thorne gave the firft and the greatefl; cauf z 
 of the Schifme (as is prooved t before.) And therefore 
 here it doth not follow, 1 hat if a Donatijl have porta- 
 bility of Salvation, Therefore a %omanijl hath ; For a 
 Idler Offender may have that poflibility of fafety 5 
 which a greater hath not. 
 
 Andlaft of all, whereas A. (j. addes, tha tconfefl- Tuncl.6. 
 edly there is no fuch T trill. That’s a moft lowd untruth , *st c.p.6<s. 
 and an Ingenuous man would never have faid it. For 
 in the fame * place, where I grant a portability of Sal- *§-35*#4 2 * 
 vation in the Romani thurch,\ prefently adde, that it is 
 nofecure way ,in regard of %omane (formations. And 
 A.C. cannot plead for himfclf that he either knew not 
 this, or that he overlook'd it ; for himfelfedifputes 
 again ft it as ftrongly as he can. What modefty, or 
 Truth cah you this ? For he that confeffes a pofibility 
 of Salvation.do th not therby confefle no perill of Damna- 
 tion in the (am e way Yea but if fome Prot eft ants fhould 
 fa\ there is perill of Damnation to live and dye in the Roma?ie 
 Faith , thi ir faying is nothing in compart [on of the number or 
 worth of tboje that fay, there is none. So A. C. againc,And be* 
 fide, they which fay it , are contradiHed by their owne more 
 Learned brethren. Here A. C. fpeakes very confufedly. 
 
 But whether he fpeakeof Trotejlants } or (fomanijls, 
 
 3 
 
 or 
 
I 
 
 N 
 
 5OI 
 
 S’- 3 f • 
 
 ♦ 
 
 or mixes both, the matter is not great. For as for the 
 dumber and Worth of men, they are no neceffary Con- 
 cludes for Trtith Not dumber • for who would be 
 
 f r ngemuit totus Orbis , & Arriawmfe ejfe miratus eft. Judged by the Many ? 
 S. H'xv.adverf. Luciferian.poFl medistm.Tc.z. Arrianorum The time W3S when the 
 VenenttmnonjamportiHncuUmquandam/cdpekeOrbem + c xxrrrr tnn m*- 
 
 totum contaminaverat t adeo utpropc cun Elis Latini Sermo- “ “ 
 
 nisEpi/copis.partimvi,partimfraudedeceptis,caligoqua- liy for the Orthodox. 
 dammentibus 0 jf under etur.&c.Vm. Lu.eont. Haref. c.6. Worth fimplv for 
 
 Ecclefia non Parietibus conftftit^ed in Dogmatum veritate, , . . ^ / > 
 
 Ecelefut ibi eft^ ubi fidcs vera eft. Caterum ante annos that OllCC miiicd,lS of 
 quindecim,autviginti,Parietes omneshtcSsclefiarumHa- ^]] other the °Tcatcft 
 retici(dc Airianis&aliis Haerecicis loquitur jpofsidebant ' • ri 1 r'J 
 
 Ecclejia autem Hiker at, ubtfidesveraerat. S. Hier. mill. ader. And yet (aOd 
 
 in c Pfal.\H. Conltantius. Tantane Orbit terra pars, Libe- forbid, that tO Word? 
 ri,in te refidet.ut tn Coins homini Impio (de Athanafio loqui - t „ rL _ . 1 1 
 
 tur) fubfidid venire ,&■ pacem Orbis ac Munditotius di- _ A U d 110t 
 
 rimere audeas . Libsrius. Efto quod ego folus fim y nonta - yeeld in difficult and 
 mtnfrofterea Caufafidci fit inf trior, nmoltmtrcsjolum p (r pl exe J Queflms , 
 want repern^qut%egis mandatorefijferent Thcod.Z.. l r 1 
 
 •2, HiJ}. Ecclef.c. 16. Dialogs inter Conjlant. Imp. & Li- yet lO, as that WflCn 
 her mm P dp am. So that Pope did not think Multitude any ]rf atters Fundamental in 
 great note ot the true Church. Vbifmt. &c. qui Eccleft- 1 t: • 1 'ns 
 
 ammultitudine definiunt ,(£r parvumgregemafpernantur, the rdtW COmeill l^Ue- 
 
 e. Greg. Naz. Or at i^.priu. Nay the Arrians were fiion they finally reft 
 growneto thatfboldneffe that they Obje6ted to theCa- \ • 1 J 1 
 
 tholieks of that time Taucitatem, the thinnefle of their npOIl an illgner, and 
 
 number,Greg.Naz.C4rw. devitafua. p. 24. Edit. Parif. clearer certainty then 
 
 J6 1 T £m<m ejetli '«’»'» f™*' CniuMuTjrtA** ^ bc founc j in eitbcr 
 
 in defertujuts Synagogis illud: Multi vocati, paucielecti, ^ 
 
 Socr.Z. 1 .Hifi.Eccl.c. 1 o. Number or Weight of 
 
 * Error Origenis & Tertulliani magna fuit in Eccle fid BefideS if VOll 
 
 Dei Populi tentatio, Vin Lir. cont.Har.c.i 3 $“24. * 3 * 
 
 meane your own Par- 
 tie, you have not yet prooved your P artie more wor- 
 thy for Life or Learning then the Trotefiants . Proove 
 that fir ft, and then it will be time to tell you, how 
 worthy many of your Topes have beene tor either Life 
 or Learning . As for the reft , you may blufh to fay it. 
 For all Pi olefiant s unanimoufly agree in this, That there 
 is great perill of Damnation for any man to hve and 
 dye in the %omane perfoafion. And you are not able to 
 produce any one Troteftant , that ever faid the contra- 
 ry. And therefore that is a moft notorious Hander, 
 
 where 
 
 
S- V : , 
 
 where you fay , that they which affirme this perijl of 
 Damnation 3 arc contradidfed by their owne more 
 Learned Brethren. 
 
 And thus having cleared the way againft the Ex- 
 ceptions of A. C to the two former Inftances, I will 
 now proceed ( as 1 1 promifed ) to make this farther 
 appeare, chat A. C. and his fello wes dare not hand to 
 that ground, which is here laid downe. Namely,/ hat 
 in Toynt of Faith and Salvation , it is fafefl for a man to take 
 that Vay vhich the AdVerfxry Conftfes to he true y or thereon 
 the differing Parties agree. And chat if they doc if and to 
 it/hey muif be forced to maintaine the Church of Eng- 
 land in many things againft the Church of (Rome. 
 
 And firfii Ilnftance in the Article of our Saviour 
 Chrtfls Vefcent into Hell . I hope the Church of (Rome be- 
 lieves this Article 5 and withall that Hell is the place of 
 the Damned, io doth the Church of England* In this 
 then thefc diflcncing Churches agree: Therefore ac- 
 cording to the former Rule (yea and here in Truth too) 
 us fafeft fora man to believe this Article of the (freed , 
 as both agree : That is, that Chrifl defeended in Soule 
 into the Place of the Damned. But this the Romanics 
 will not endure at any hand.Fer tit iSchoole agree in it 
 That the Scule of Christ in the time of his death Vent really no 
 farther then in LimbumTatrum, which is not the place 
 of the Damned, but a Region or Sorter in the upper 
 part ofHelh(as they call it) built up thereby the Ro- 
 manifti without Licence of either Scripture , or the ?ri- 
 mitive Church . And a man would wonder how thole 
 Builders vith untempered mortar found light enough id 
 that darke P lace to build as they have done. 
 
 Secondly , l'le initance in the I? iflitution of the Sacra- 
 ment in both kinds. That Chrilf Inflituted it fo } i$ confef- 
 fed by both Churches,- that the Ancient Churches receiv- 
 ed it foj is agreed by both Churches. Therefore 
 *; according 
 
 303 
 
 tA. C.p. 66 . 
 
 Num, 7. 
 
 tS-3s.ff.4j 
 
 TunEl.C 
 
 \Seqnuntur 
 emm Thom.p.$. 
 q. 52 Ar. 2 . c. 
 Verba ejus [nut. 
 Anima Cbrijh 
 per fu ant eJfentV 
 am defeendit ft- 
 Ih ad locum Jn ~ 
 fernijn ejuojujh 
 detinebantur • 
 &c. 
 
 Ezee’ij.io, 
 
 <Pun£t. 
 
 Z>e 
 
}°4 
 
 ctiium concept 
 Bobemis utriuf- 
 que fpecici ufum : 
 modo faterentur 
 id fibt conccdi *b 
 Ecclefia.non au~ 
 temadboc tcne- 
 ri Diviuo jure, 
 TSd.L.i.dc Sa- 
 
 cr ament. in gene- 
 
 re. <\ 2 .§. 2 . 
 
 tTho.p.^,q,y6, 
 ts4.2 x. & alibi 
 pajfim* 
 
 : .... §>y- 
 
 according to the former Rule (and here in Truth too) 
 *cis lafeft tor a man to receive this Sacrament in both 
 kindes. And yet here this Ground of A , mull not 
 Hand for good, no not at ^ome, but to receive in 
 one kindeis enough for the Laity. And the poore 
 * Bohemians mull: have a Difpenfation , that it may be 
 lawfullfor them to receive the Sacrament as Chrift 
 commanded them .And this mujl not be granted to them 
 neither 3 unleffe they will acknowledge ( moll oppofite to 
 Truth) that they are not bound by Divine Law to recei ve it 
 in both kindes. And here their Building with untempered 
 Mortar appeares moll manifeftly. For they have no 
 (hew tomaintainethis, but the fi&ion of Thomas of 
 A quin, That he which receives the Body of Chrijl , receives 
 alfo his Blood per t concomitantiam , by concomitancy . 
 becaufe the Blood goes alwayes with the Body , of 
 which Terme t Thomas was the firft Author I can yet 
 finde. Fir/? then, if this be true, I hope Chrift knew 
 it : And then why did he fo unulefully inftitute it in 
 both kindes? Next, if this be true, Concomitancy accom- 
 panies the Prieft, as well as the People; and then 
 why may not he receive it in one kinde alio? Third- 
 ly , this is apparently not true j For the EuchariU 
 is a Sacrament Sanguinis ejfuji , of Blood Ihed, and 
 poured out; And Blood poured out, andfo levered 
 from the Body, goes not along with the Body per cm* 
 comitantiam . And yet Chrift mull: rather erre, or pro- 
 ceed I know not how in the Inftitution of the Sa- 
 crament in both kindes , rather then the Holy unerr- 
 ing Church of Rome may doc amille in the Determina- 
 tion for it 5 and the Adminiilration of it in one 
 kinde. Nor will the Diftindlion , That Chrift injii- 
 tuted this as a Sacrifice , to Which both kindes Were 
 nece/jary , ferve the turne ; For fuppofe that 
 true , yet hee inftituted it } as a Sacrament alio , 
 
 or 
 
S' 
 
 i5- 
 
 5 °? 
 
 : . . * -■ 
 
 or els that Sacrament had no Inftitudon from Chrift 
 which I prefume A. C. dares not affirme. And that 
 Infhtution which this Sacrament had from Chriff, 
 was in both kindcs. 
 
 And finceheres mention happen’d of Sacrifice, my Pm &. y 
 Tl^dlnftancefhall ar , . a . .. T>T , , . , TT , 
 
 a Chrilt by hisowne Blood cntred once into the Holy 1 I*ace„ 
 and obtained eternal 1 Redemption tor us. Heb.p. 1 2. And this 
 w s done by way of Sacrifice. By the ottering of the Body of 
 Iefus Chrilt once made. Heb. 10 , 1 o. Chrilt gave himfelfe tor us, 
 to be an Oifenng,and a Sacrifice of a Tweet lmelling favour unto 
 Great and PilAlMy- God.Eph.5.2. Out of which place the Schoole infers, Pafftonem 
 
 vcrum Sacrifciumfuijfe. Tho. p. 3 . q. 48. Ait. 3. c„ 
 Chrilt did fufter Death upon the Croffefor our Redemption, 
 and made thereby his one Oblation of himfelte once offered, 
 a full, perfebf, and fufficient Sacrifice, Oulation and Satisfadli- 
 on for the finnesof the whole World. Ecclef. Ang. in Ca- 
 none Confecrationis. Suchar. 
 
 b And Chrilt did Inltitute, and in his Holy Gofpell Command 
 us to continue a Perpetuall Memory of that his pretious Death, 
 untill his Comming againe. Ecclef. Ang . ibid. 
 c S acr amentum hoc eft (ommemorativum Dominic a Paffionii, 
 (]ua fuit vertim Sacrifcium ; & fc Nominattir Sacrificium 
 Tho. p. 3 . q. 73 . A. 4. C. Chrilt being Offer’d up once for all 
 in liiiowne proper Perfon , is yet laid ,to be Offer’d up &c. in 
 the Celebration of the Sacrament ; Becaule his Oolauon once 
 for ever made, is thereby Reprefented. Lambert in Fox his 
 Afartyrolog.ZJol.i.Edit. Lond. 1597 • p. 1033 £t poflea. 
 tv»r*r r»f* fhic fis a Memoriall, or Reprefentation thereof. Ibid. TheMafter 
 
 _ of the Sentences judged truly in this Point, faying : That which 
 
 O'ijice in a Sacra- is offer’d and Confecrated of the Prielt, is called a Sacrifice and 
 
 ment even till his Oblation, becillfe it is a Memory, and Representation of the 
 ^ . . true Sacrifice, and Holy Oblation made on the Altar of the 
 
 COmming againe. Ciofie. in liisAnfwer to Brfliop CJard- 
 
 For at and in the ner concerning the moft Holy Sacrament. L. 5 . p. 377. And 
 
 againe this ihortly is the minde of Lombardas , Tnat the thing 
 which is done at Gods Board is a Sacrifice, and {b is that alfo 
 which was made upon the Croffe, but not after one manner of 
 underltanding , For this was the Thing indeed, and that is the 
 Commemoration of the Thing. Ibid. So likewifeBiiliop Ienvell 
 acknowledgeth incruentum & rationabile Sacrificium , fpoken 
 of bv Eufeb, De Demonflrat. Evang, L levoels Reply 
 ~ againft Harding. Art. 7. Divif 9. Againe, The miniltration 
 moratfee Sacrifice or of the Holy Communion is icmetimes of the Ancient Fathers 
 
 Chrifts Death re- calledan^^/Wy^m/f^notinrelpeftofany Corporall or 
 r . . n j flethly prefence, that is imagined to be there without Blood- 
 preiented in (»read fhedding, but for that ic l-eprefenteth, and reporteth to our 
 broken and Wine minds that one, and everlalfing Sacrifice that Chrilt made inhis 
 
 Rr poured 
 
 be in the Sacrifice 
 which is offer’d up 
 to God in that 
 
 fiery of our f fedcm- 
 ptton by the death 
 of Qyrifl : For as 
 Chrifl: offer’d up 
 "himfelfe once for 
 all, a full and all- 
 fufficient Sacrifice 
 for the finoe of the 
 whole world . So did 
 He Inftitute, and 
 Command a b Me- 
 
 Eucharifl , wee of- 
 fer up to God three 
 Sacrifices. One by 
 the Priefl onely, 
 that’s the c Comme - 
 
30 <S 
 
 S' 35 
 
 poured out. Ano- 
 ther by the * Priejl 
 6c the'Pewpk, joynt- 
 ly, and that is the 
 Sacrifice of Praife 
 and TbankfgtYtng , 
 for all the Benefits 
 and graces we re- 
 ceive by the pre- 
 cious Death of 
 Chrift.TheT/W, 
 f by every particular 
 
 Body upon the Groffs. This Bifhop ^n^/ditTikethnot in his 
 Arrfwer to Harding’.ssifrt.i'J. Divif . 1 4.. F litres Coenam Do - 
 mint cam dupltci dc caufavocarunt Sscnficium incrucntum. 
 
 Turn quod fitfmago & felennis reprafentatio illius S aerified 
 i\ActK« quod C hr id us cumfangmnis ejfufione obtulit in Cruce: 
 
 Turn quod fit etiam Eucharilticum Sacrificium, id eft , Sacrifi- 
 cittm Landis & 0 ratiarum attionis, cum pro benefetis omnibus , 
 turn pro redempttone imprimis per (fhrifti mortem perabla, 
 
 Zanch. in 2 . Tracep. Dccal.T4.p4 5 9 And D.Fulke alfo ac- 
 knowledges a Sacrifice in the hucharift. In S. Mat. 26, 26. 
 
 T^on difsimulavtrint Chrifiamin focna Domini , fve ut ipf 
 loqutbantur, in Sacriftcio Alt arts peculiars qnodam modo pra- 
 fentem fevenerart r Deum Cbriftianorum , fed qua ejjet forma 
 ejus fieri ficii quod per SjmbolaTanis & vini peragitur , hoc 
 Veteres pra fe non fere bant - 1 fa. C&faub. Exercit. 1 6. ad t/dnnal. 
 r Baron. §.4 \.p. 5 60. 
 
 * In the Liturgie of the Church of England we pray to God 
 immediately after the reception of the Sacrament,That He r „ 
 
 would bee pleafed to accept this<w Sacrifice of Praife and f J I | - 
 
 Thanksgiving &c. And Hcb.13. 1 5. The-Sacrifice Propitiato- /y, and that IS the 
 ry was made by Chrift himfelfe only, hut the Sacrifice Com- 
 memorative and Gratulatory is made by the Pridt and the 
 People. Archbiftjop Cranmtr in his Anfwer to Bifhop Gardner. 
 
 L-S p.377. 
 
 1 1 beleech you Brethren by the mercies of God,that you give 
 lip your Bodies a living Sacrifice, holy, and acceptable unto 
 Go d.Rom. 12. 1. Weeper, and prefent unto thee, O Lord,our 
 felves, our foules,and bodies, to be a reafonable, holy and liv- 
 ing Sacrifice unto thee. So the Church of England in the 
 Prayer after the receiving of the Blefled Sacrament. 
 
 Now thus farre thefe diflenting Churches agree, that 
 in the Euchariji, there is a Sacrifice of Duty, and a 
 Sacrifice of Praife, and a Sacrifice o {Commemoration 
 of Chrifl. Therefore according to the former Rule 
 ( and here in truth too) *tis fafeft for a man to believe 
 the Commemorative, the Praifing,and the Perform- 
 ing Sacrifice,and to offer them duly to God, and leave 
 the Church of Pome in this Particular to her Superfliti- 
 ons, that I may fay no more. And would the 'Church of 
 pom (land to A . Q. Rule, and believe diflenting Par- 
 ties where they agree, were it but in this, and that be- 
 fore, of the Prefence, it would work farre toward 
 the Peace of Qhriflendome . But the Truth is - They pre- 
 tend the Peace of Chrifl endome^ but care no more for it, 
 
 then 
 
 Sacrifice of every 
 mans Body , and 
 Soul yto ferve him 
 in both, all the reft 
 of his life, for this 
 blefling thus be- 
 flowed on him. 
 
S-3* 5°7 
 
 then as it may uphold at leaft, if not increafe their 
 owne GmitneJfC' 
 
 My fourth Inftance fhall be in the Sacrament of Sap- FunB. 4. 
 tifme, and the things required as neceffary to make it 
 effe&uall to the Receiver* They in the common re- 
 ceived Do&rinc of the Church of Some are three. The 
 Matter , the Forme , and the Intention of the Prieft; to doe 
 that which the Churchdoth,, and intends he fhould 
 doe. Now all other Shines y as well ancient a smoderne J 
 and both the diffentmg Churches a ! fo , agree in the 
 two former* but many deny that the Intention of the 
 Friejl is nccelfary. Will A. C. hold his %ule y That tis fa - 
 fefi to believe in a controverted Foint of Faith that which the dif- 
 fering Farties agree on , or "Which the Adverfe Fart Con - 
 feffes ? If he will not, then why fhould he preffe that, 
 as a F(ule to diredt others, which he will not be guided 
 by himfelfe ? And if he will • then he mull goe profef 
 fedly againft the* Councellof Trent, which hath deter- *Co» c Trid.sf. 
 mined it as defide, as a Point of Faith; that th ^Intention of 7 ’ Ca *‘ 1 x * 
 tlse Friefl is neceffary to make the Baptifne trile and va- 
 lid. Though in the t Hijlory of that Councell , ’tis moft t H A<>r. Con. 
 apparent the Sifhops and other Shines there could /J tr ’ 
 not tell what to ani wer to the Sijhop of Minors^ a Kea - 
 polttane , who declared his Tudgement openly againft 
 it, in the face of that Councell. 
 
 My fft Inftance is* Wee fay ^ and can eafily Funft. y 
 prove there are divers Errors , and fome grofte ones 
 in the Soman MijfalL But I my felfe have heard 
 fome lefuites confelTe , that in th cLifurgte of the Church 
 of England , there’s noe poficive errour. And being 
 preffed , why then they refufed to come to our 
 Churches and ferve God with us ? They anfweredj 
 they could not doe it * Becaufe though our Liturgie 
 had in it nothing ill, yet it wanted a great deale of that 
 Which was good } and was in their Service . Now 
 
 R r 2 here 
 
Mum, 8 . 
 
 1 . 
 
 here let A . C. confider againe , Here is a plaine 
 Qoncefsion of the adverje Tart : And Both agree, 
 there’s nothing in our Service , but that which is 
 holy and good. What will the lefuite, or A . C. fay to 
 this ? If hee forfake his ground , then it is not faf- 
 eftin point of Divine Worfhip to joyne in Faith as 
 the diffenring Parties agree , or to ftand to the Ad- 
 verfarics owne Confeffion. If hee be fo hardy as to 
 maintaineit, then the Enghfh Liturgie is better, and 
 fafer to worfhip God by ,then the TomaneMafJe; Which 
 yet, I prefume, A. C. will not confeffe. 
 
 In all thefe Inftances ( the Matter fo falling 
 out of it felfe, for the Argument enforces it not) 
 the thing is true 3 but not therefore true , becaufe the dif- 
 fering Turtles agree in it , or becaufe the adverfc 
 Part Confeffes it. Yet leaft the Iejuite , or A. C. for 
 him, farther to deceive the weakc, fhould inferre that 
 this in fo many Inftances is true, and falfe in 
 none, but that one concerning Taptifme amongthe 
 foonatijls , and therefore the Argument is true ut 
 plerumfc ,as for the moft,and that therfore ns the fafeft 
 way to believe that which diflenting Parties agree on; 
 I will lay downe fomc other Tarticulars of as great 
 Confequcnce,as any can be in, or about Chriftian dfe/f 
 gton> And if in them A.Cox any lefuite dare fay, that ’tis 
 faf eft to believe as the diffenting Parties agree , or as 
 the adverfePartie confeffes , Idarefayhefhall bee an 
 Heretick in the higheft degree, if not an Infidell. 
 
 And Firtt , where the Queftion was betwixt the 
 Orthodox, and the Arrianj whether the Son of God were 
 confuhflantiall with the Father, The Orthodox faid he was 
 o,(jLoi<no$ of the fame fubftance. ' The Arrian came with- 
 in a Letter ot the Truth) and faid he was bfuniaioi of 
 like fubftance. Now hee that fayes , hee is of the 
 fame fubftance 3 confeffes hee is of like fubftance, 
 
 and 
 
S‘fr\ 3°P 
 
 and more, that is. Identity of Subflancc- for Iden- 
 tity containcs in it all Degrees of likeneffe , and 
 ra ore. But hee that acknowledges , and believes, 
 that Hee is of like nature, and no more, denies the 
 Identity: Therefore if this %nle be true , That it is 
 fifelb to believe that } in which the dijjenting Parties 
 agree , or “which the AdVerfe Tart Confejjes , ( which 
 A. Q. makes fuch great vaunt of) then tis fafefl A.c.p t 6 4.^. 
 for a Qhriftian to believe that Chrifl is of like na- 
 ture with god the Father , and bee free from Be- 
 liefe , that Hee is Corifubflantiall with him , which 3 co n . Nice n. 
 yet is Concluded by the a Councell of Nice as necef Fides vei sym- 
 fary to Salvation , and the Contrary Condemned cin^i ™ ^ 
 for Damnable Herejie. 
 
 Secondly , in the Queftion about the T^efurreBi- TunB. 2, 
 on, betweene the Orthodoxe , and 
 
 diverfe Grofl'e b Heretickes of old, b ' Sfturnhws , 'Baft tides , Carp aerates , 
 
 and the Anab.iptijls and Libertines [ eSi Tertull . dt prafiript. adverf. 
 
 of late. For all , or moll of thefe H*ret.c. 46,4s. 49. 51. 
 
 dijlenting ^Parties agree, that there 
 ought to bee a RcjurreBion from finne to a Rate of 
 Grace , and that this RefurrcBion oncly is meant in 
 diverfe Pafiages of holy Scripture , together with the 
 Life of the Soule , which they are 
 
 content to fay is Immortall. But c Libertini rident fpcm emnem quam de 
 
 c they utterly deny any RefurreBi - %£furrcttune habemus , tdque jam nobi* 
 J r , ' J J c , c evemjje dicunt, qttodadhuc expettatnm , 
 
 0 >l Of tee Body after Death . bo &c. ntHomo feiat Animam fftmm Spim 
 
 with them that Article of the Creed ritum immortaUm ejfe perpetuo liven- 
 VT . .1 • r tem in CmH** & c. Calv. infiruSIione ad* 
 
 is gone. Now thei if any man verj % Liber tinos c. 22. princ. Sum etiam 
 
 Will guide his Faith by this Rule hodie Libertini qui earn irridenty &%e- 
 of AX. The Content of diSmtin r in 
 
 Parties , or the Confepion of the Ad- loc. Com. Ctaf3.fr. 15.2^4. 
 
 Verfe Tart , hee muft denie the 
 
 RefurreBion of the Body from the Grave to Glory , 
 
 R r j and 
 
310 
 
 TunSl. j. 
 
 and believe none but that of the Soule , from fume 
 to Grace, which the Mdverfaries Confejfe , and in 
 which the Diffenting Parties agree . 
 
 Thirdly , in the great Vifpute of all others , about 
 the Vnityof the Godhead, All diffenting parties, lew, 
 Turke , and fhriflian : Among Chriftians Ortkodoxe, 
 and Anti-Trinitarian of old : And in theft later times, 
 Orthodoxe and Socman (that Horrid and mighty mon- 
 ger of all Herefies) agree in this , That there is but 
 one God. And 1 hope it is as neceffary to believe one 
 God our Father, as one Church our Mother . Now will 
 AT. fay here, tis fafefl believing as the diffenting Parties 
 agree , or as the Adverfe Parties Qonfefe^ namely, That 
 there is but one God ) and fo deny the Trinity , and there- 
 with the Sonne of God the Saviour of the Veorld ? 
 
 Fourthly, in a Point as Fundamentad in the Faith, as 
 this. Namely, whether Chrift be true and Very God . 
 
 For which Very Point , moftof the 
 a Martyrs in the Primitive Church laid 
 down their lives. The diflenting 
 Parties here were the Orthodoxe Be- 
 lievers , whoaffirmeHee is both 
 God and Man ‘ for fo our Creed 
 teaches us: And all thoft Hereticks , which affirmc 
 Chrift to bee Man , but denie him to bee God , as 
 
 the k Arrians , and c Carpocratians , 
 and d Cerinthus, and e Hthion, with 
 others : and at this day the i Soci- 
 nians. Theft diffenting Parties 
 agree fully and clearely, That 
 Chrift is Man. Well then. Dare 
 A. C. fticke to his Pyde here, and 
 fay 'tis fafefl for a Chriflian in 
 this great Point of Faith to governe his Beliefe 
 “ by 
 
 Pun ft. 4. 
 
 aHebr. ji. 37. far Ulus Alexandrinus 
 male audivit, quod Ammonium Adartj- 
 rtm appellavity quem conslitit temcritatis 
 poenas dedifte , & non NecefTitate negandi 
 Chrifti in tormentis ejfc mortuum. Socr. 
 Htft.Scc/.L.j.c.iq. 
 
 Optatns L . 4. fa m ' Par men. 
 c T ertul. L. de Prafcrip. c.q 8, 
 d Tertul. Ibid. 
 
 c Tertul. L.de fame Chrifii . c.14. 
 
 f Si ad left* ChriJH refpicias Ejfentiam 
 at q tie T^aturam, non ntfi Hominem eum 
 fuijjc conftanter affirmamus. Volke- 
 Itus Lib . 3, de Keligione fariftiana. 
 cap. 1. 
 

 5 “ 
 
 by the (on fait of the fe dijfenting Parties , or the Qon- 
 fefiion and acknowledgement of the yfdverfe Partin 
 and fo feulc his Beliefe, that Chrift is a meere Man’ 
 and not God ? I hope hee dares not. So then, this 
 Pj‘le , To pejohe a mans Faith into that , in tvhich the 
 Difienting Parties agree , or tvhich the Adverfe Part 
 confeffes , is as often falle , as true. And falter in as 
 Great, if not Greater Matters , then thofc, in which 
 itistrue. And where ’tis true, A.C. and hisfellowes 
 dare not governe chemfelves by it , the Church of 
 Pome condemning thofe things which that fide 
 proves. And yet while they talkeof Certainty , nay of 
 Infallibility, (leffe will not ferve their turnes) they arc 
 driven to make ufe of fuch poore fhifts as thefe^which 
 have no certainty at all of Truth in them but inferre 
 falfhood and Truth alike. And yet for this alio men 
 will be fo weake, or fo wilfully as to be Reduced by 
 them. 
 
 I told you * before, That the force of the prece- k u m 
 ding Argument lies upon Hbo things. The one ex - *§.3 s'.NuX 
 prejfed , and that’s part • the other upon the Bye, which 
 comes now to be handled: And that is your continu- 
 all poore Out-cry againfl: us > Thatlbe cannot be fayed, 
 lecaufe TVe are out of the Church. Sure if 1 thought I 
 were out, l would get in as fall as 
 I could. For we confefle as well 
 
 as you, That a Out of the (fatholike nem ^^ffTdeEccief.c.\^ % 
 Church of Chrift there is no Salvation. 
 
 But what do you meane by Out of ter an, Can. 1. And yet even there there’s 
 the Church i Sure out of the no mentI on oftheRomane Church. 
 
 mane (f hurch . Why but the fomane Church and the b i 0 doth 
 
 Church of England are but two diftind members of 
 
 that Qatholike Church which is fpread over the face of Rom*ne chunk 
 
 the earth. Therefore %ome is not the Houfe where the 
 
 Qmrcb dwek, but fome it lelfe, as well as other on.A.c^cu 
 
 particular 
 
Particular Churches y dwels 
 
 4 And Daughter Sion was Goa’s owne phrale of old of 
 the Church, lfa.i.%. « $ 1 aJkieuy Rtrov tqv 7 \oy>v 
 
 <&$0V7n<ptjJJiV) «/'4 ~ikl 7?V 2/aV 77!* TTjKiai, ’-V/i£6 77) * OK-XAH ' 
 
 Hyppol. Or At. de Confum, mttndi. £t emnis Eccle- 
 fa Virgo appellata eft . S. Aug. TV, I 3 .<» 7 «p^, 
 
 f For Chnlt was to be preached to all Nations, but that 
 Preaching was to begin at Ierufaltm , S. Luc.*! 4*47. ac- 
 cording to the Prophefie, ykffo. 4. 2, And the Dilciples 
 were firlf called Christians at Antioch, A Ft. 11.26. And 
 therefore there was a Church there, before ever S . Peter 
 came thence to fettle One at Rome. Nor is it an Opinion 
 dertitute either of Authority, or Probability, That the 
 Faith of Chrilt was preached, and the Sacraments admi- 
 niftred here in England , before any (ertiement of a 
 Church in Rome, tor S .Cjildas the Ancientelt monu- 
 ment we have, and whom the Romanics themfelves re- 
 verence, fayes exprelly, That the Religion of Chrift was 
 received in Br it annie, Temper e( ut feimus ) fummo Tiberii 
 Cafaris,&c. In the later time oiTiberius Cafar } Gddas 
 deexcid. Brit . whereas S. Peter kept in Jewrie long after 
 Tiberius his death. Therefore the firlt Converlion of 
 this Uaad to the Faith, was not by S. Peter. Nor from 
 Rome , which was not then a Church, Againlt this Tfch. 
 Broughton in his Ecclefialiicall Hiftory of (fire at Bri- 
 taine , Centur . 1. G. 8. §. 4. fayes exprelly : That the 
 Troteftants do freelj acknowledge , that this Claufe of the 
 time of Tiberius (tempore fummo Tiberii Oel'aris ) is 
 wanting in other Copies of that holy Writer, and namely in 
 that which was fet forth by Pol. Virgil , and others . 
 Whereas fir ft thefe words are exprefl'e in a moll faire,and 
 ancient Manufcript of Gildas to be feene in S r ,Rob. Cot • 
 ton s Study, if any doubt it. Secondly , thefe words are as 
 expreffe in the printed Edition of Gildas by Polyd. Vtrg. 
 which Edition was printed at London , An. 15 25. and 
 was never reprinted fince. Thirdly , thefe words are as 
 expreffe in the Edition of Gildas , by Io. Iofelin. printed 
 at London alfo, An. 1568. And this falflhood of Trough- 
 ton is fo much the more foule, becaufe he boafts (Praefat. 
 to his Reader, fine.) That he hath feene anddili^ntly per- 
 ufed the moft t and be ft Monuments and Antiquities ex- 
 tant, &c. For if he did not fee andperufe thefe, he is 
 vainelv falfe to fay it s if he did fee them, he is moil ma- 
 liciouily falfe to belie them. And laftly , whereas he 
 (ayes : The Proteftants themielvesconfeife fo much , I 
 muft believe he is as falfe in this as in the former , till he 
 name the Proteftants to me, which do confeffe, it. And 
 when he doth, he fhali gaine but this from me. That thole 
 Protellants which confeffed it, were milfaken. For the 
 thing ismifiaken. 
 
 in this great c V/nVerfall 
 HoufeftinlelTc you will 
 fhut up the Church in 
 F{ome , as the Donatifts 
 did in Mfricke.l come a 
 little lower. %ome and 
 o !a c r E^at iona 11 C hurches 
 ate in this Vniverfall 
 Caiholike Houfeas fb 
 many * Daughters to 
 whom (under ChrilV) 
 the care of the Houf 
 hold is committed by 
 God the Father, and 
 the Catholike Church 
 the Mother of all Chri- 
 ftians. ^ome , as an El- 
 der Sifter, t but not the 
 Eldefl neither , had a 
 great Care committed 
 unto her, in, and from 
 the prime times of the 
 Church, and to her Bi- 
 jhop in Her .* but at this 
 time (to let pafle many 
 brawles that have for- 
 merly beenc in the 
 Houie) England , and 
 fome other Sifters of 
 hers are fallen out in 
 the Family. What then? 
 Will the Father ,and the 
 Mother , God , and the 
 Church, caft one Child 
 out^becaufc another is 
 
angry with it ? whei* did Chrift give that pow- 
 er to an Elder ! .ier, that She, and her Steward, the 
 
 (Bijh§p there, fhould thiuft out what Child fliee 
 pleafed ? Efpecially when fhee her felfe is juftly ac* 
 cufed to have given the Offence that is taken in 
 the Hotife ? Or will not both Father , and Mother 
 be (harper to Her for this unjuft and unnatural! 
 ufage of her younger Sifters, but their deare Chil- 
 dren f Nay, is it not the next way to make them 
 turne her out of doores, that is (o unnaturall to the 
 reft? It is well fur all Chriftian men and Churches, 
 that the Father and Mother of them are not (ocurft 
 as fome would have them. And Salvation need 
 
 not bee feared of any dutifull Child, nor Outing 
 from the Church , becaufe this Elder Sifters faults 
 arc difcovered in the Houfe , and 
 
 (liee SrOWne frOWard for it a- * %?turne of Untruths upon M.leweli, 
 
 . n i i i • i n Art. 4. Vncrurh 10?. 
 
 gainlt them that complained. But f For I am f ure there is a Romans 
 
 as Children cry when they are church , that is but a Particular. Bel- 
 
 Waked OUt of lleepe , (b doe you, then you mult either (hew me another 
 and wrangle with all that come Romane Church , which is The Ca- 
 
 nearcyou. And* Stapleton con- andt i; e f ame y Romane Church is indif . 
 
 fdles , T.bat yee "Were in a dead fleep, ferent Reipedts or Relations A Parti* 
 
 and over- much reft , "token the Trote - cuUr ' ancl yet Jl ft Which 
 
 , j 7 . p IS not vet done. And I do nor lay , A 
 
 jtants ftde Upon you. Now if you Particular, and yet A Cat hoi ke • But 
 can prove that tyme is properly 
 The t Catholike Church it felfe (as 
 you commonly call it ) fpeak out 
 and prove it. In the meane time, 
 you may Marke this too, if you 
 will , and it feemes you doe • for 
 here you forger not what the 'Bi- 
 fhop faid to you. 
 
 J J"' V ) 
 
 A T articular , and yet The Catholike 
 Church: For io youipea.ke. For that 
 which Card. Peron hath, That die Ro- 
 mane Church is the Catholike Caufally , 
 becaufe it infufes Vniverfality into all 
 the whole Body of the Catholike 
 Church, can, I thinke, fatisfie no man 
 that reads it. That a Particular fliould 
 infufe Vniverfality into an Vniverfall*. 
 Teton L. 4. of his Reply, c.p. 
 
 F Ah 
 
 ; 
 
 Sf 
 
p. The Lady which doubted ( [aid the Ld 'tfbo]) to mee) 
 may be better faVed in it, thenyou . 
 
 §• i 6 - 
 
 * Rom. 14. 4. 
 
 g 4 I l aid fo indeed. Marke that too. Where yet by the 
 way, thefe Words (Thenyou) doe not fuppofe Ferfon 
 only. For l will iudge * no man , that hath another Mafter 
 to jland or fall to. But they fuppole Calling and Sufficien- 
 cy in the Pcrfon. Thai you , that is , Then any man of 
 your Calling and knowledge > of whom more is required. 
 And then no queftion of the truth of this Ipeech, 
 That that T erf on may better be fayed ( that is eafier ) 
 
 then you , then any man that 
 knowcs fomucb of truth; and 
 oppofes again# it; as you, and 
 others of your Calling doe. 
 How far you know Truth 
 other men may judge by your 
 Proofcs,and Caufes of know- 
 ledge j but ho\v far you op- 
 pole Truth knowne to you, 
 that is within^and no man can 
 know,bucGod and your felves. 
 Ho wfocver, where the Founda- 
 tion is but held, there for t ordi- 
 nary men, it ts not the Vivacity of 
 
 and meaning, throughout all Ages, Berenices understanding, but the fmpllClty of 
 
 have julUybeene hated as Branches cut off from f Bele(Ving } that makes them fife, 
 the true Vine, yet one Iy fofar forth cut off, as 
 theH^relies have extended. For bothHxrefie^and 
 many other Crimes which wholly fever from 
 God, doe lever from the Church of God, but in 
 part only. Hooker. L. 5 * Ecclef Pol t §. 68. 
 
 J faterAm turbam non intelligendi vivacitas, 
 fed credendi fmplicitas tutijfwam facit. S- 
 Aug. cont. Fftnd . c. 4. 
 
 Tvo^dy.if'ioy ^aov r jo dfixou'yJSVV. Nay. Oral. 21 . 
 Omiffion oflnquiry many times faves thePeople 
 * Haeretickes in relpeft or the Frofeflion of 
 fundry Divine V eticies which they Hill rename' 
 in common with right Believers, &c. doe ftill 
 pertaine to the Church Field. L.l, de Ecclef. 
 c. 14. Fotejl aliquii Ecclef a membrum ejfe fe- 
 cundtim quid, qni tamen Jimpliciter non eft. H<e- 
 retictu recedens d Fide, non dimittitur ut Pa- 
 gantu,fed propter B Apt if mi Charaftcrem, p ti- 
 nt tur tit transfuga,,& eXcommmicAtionu gladio 
 Spiritualiter occiditHr.Stapl.Contro. l.q.l. H. 
 3. Notabili .3. 
 
 The ApolUe pronounces lome gone out. 
 S. I oh, 2. ip. from the fellow (hip of found 
 Beleivers, when as yet the Chriftian Reli 
 
 F or S. Auguftine fpeakes there, 
 of men in the Church ; and 
 no* man can be faid limply 
 to be Out of the Vifible 
 Church,tha.tis l Baj)ttzed ) and holds the Foundation. And 
 as ic is the fimplicity of beleiving , that makes them 
 fale, yea la fell, fo is it fometimes, A quickie ffe of 
 
 Vnderjianding 
 
S’- 3^* ' VI 
 
 i 1 
 
 TJttderftandmg , chat loving ic felfe , and fome by- 
 refpedts too well, makes men take up an unfafe 
 way about the So that there’s no queftion, forte ante mor - 
 
 but many were faved in corrupted times of the 
 Church, when their * Leaders 3 unlefte they repented Arbit. 
 before death 5 pot loft. And b S. Auguftine's fule will &*?$<*&* plus 
 
 bee true , That in all Corruptions of the Church , ftlrejn 
 there Void ever bee a difference betweene an Hereticke , 
 and a plaine Weil meaning man that is mi (led , and be - jf 
 lieyes an Hereticke . Yet here let mee adde this for b Si mihi videre- 
 fuller Expreflion: This muft bec underftoodof fuch ^ 
 
 Leaders and Hereticks zs c .refufe to heare the Churches Htretieis ere dens 
 Inftrudion , or to ufe all the meanes they can, to 
 come to the knowledge of the Truth. For elfe^ if Crei.c.i. 
 
 iLiey doe this } Erre they may, but c s.Mat.18. 1 7. oppvenxnt ReguUm 
 Heretiekes they arc not, as is moil Veritatu. S.Aug.L.de H*rcfil> us: versus 
 
 manifert in *S.Cyprian’s Cafe of Au& - 
 
 Re b apt Ration. For here, though L.i.deBapt.cout.Douatijl.c.12. 
 
 he were a maine Leader in that \?T‘ fi T ri d ‘ Cj IT? Au ' 
 
 . tbontate pbt cArnaUttr bUndmntur. 
 
 Errour , yet all the whole Church s.ku&L.i . de c BApt.eont. DonAt.c,i%.) 
 grant him fafe ; and his e Followers ™ mtum m f en > & > **fi 
 
 • . ^ 
 
 P , r | . n • r a JCtnettpps cmntne dtmHAtt^ quthec m 
 
 in danger or damnation, out ir tant$viroeli^unttmitAri. Ibid.c.i^ 
 any man be a Leader , and a Teach- 
 ing Hereiick , and will add f Schifme 
 to Here fie , and bee obftimte in 
 both , he without repentance mull 
 
 needs bee loft, while many that wtfifiwy cbripana. ,f. Au§. L.i%,ek 
 j , 17. f Ctv.T>et,c.'}i.pr™. 
 
 iucceed him in the Errour one- 
 
 iy , without the ObFtinacie, may bee faved. For, 
 they which are milled, and fwayed with the Cur- 
 rent of the fine, hold the fame Errours with their 
 mi (leaders , yT not Jitpinely , but with all fober di- 
 ligence to out the Truth : Not pertinacioufly\ 
 but with all readineife to fubmit to Truth, fo 
 (bone as it fhall bee found; Not uncharitably , bur 
 
 3 
 
 tn 
 
 1 %ei ‘( cirea accufatun Corel- 
 
 li an um ) deprehenf D ouatifta, f trti naci 
 4 t([entione jirmata, fchifma it* Harefm 
 verteruttt.S.Aag. Lde Haref. Htr,6p. 
 Et Tales fub Voctbulo Cbrijlimtodottri - 
 
 Sf 2 
 
 retaining 
 
;i 6 . § 37. 
 
 retaining an internal Qmmvnion with the Whole 
 Vifible Church of Chrift in the Fundamentall 
 Points of Faith, and performance of Ads of Cha- 
 rity, not fattioujly , but with an earned: defire, and 
 a fincere endeavour (as their Place, and Calling 
 gives them meanes ) for a pcrfed Vnion , and 
 Communion of all Chriftians in 'Truth as well as 
 Peace, I fay theft, however milled, are neither He - 
 reticks , nor Schifmaticks in the fight of God , and 
 are therefore in a ftate of Salvation. And were not 
 this true Divinity, it would go very hard with many 
 poore Chriftian foules, that have been, and are milled 
 on all fides in thele and other ViHraBed times of the 
 Church of Chrift • Whereas thus habituated in them- 
 
 ftlves , they are, by Gods mercy, 
 
 * £ui etfi if ft pofimodum ad Ecclefiam fef e j n the midft of thoft Waves, 
 redeunt, reftitttere tamen eos.&fecum re- 
 voettre non pofiunt , <jut ab its fedutti 
 funP, df forts morte praventi extra Ec - 
 defiant fine Cornmunicatione & pace pe- 
 rierttnt , quorum Anima in die Indict* 
 de ipforum manibtts expet entur, qui per - 
 ditionts A ut bores , dr duces extiterttnt, 
 
 J.Cypr. L.itfyifl' 1. 
 
 I mull look to my felfc • for you are ftcurc : For, 
 
 F ©.White ([aid I) hath fecured fnee , that 
 none of our Errours be damnable , fo long as 
 u>e hold them not againfl our (fonficuce. And 
 1 hold none againft my Conjc'tence, 
 
 It ftemes then you have two Securities : 
 D. Whites After tion , and your Confcience, What 
 Aflurance D. White gave you , I cannot tell of my 
 felfe ; nor, as things ftand, may I reft: upon your Re- 
 lation. It may be you ufc him no better then you do 
 mee. And lure it is lb. For I have fince lpoken 
 
 §• 37 * 
 Mum. 1 . 
 
 in which their Mifleaders perifh. 
 I pray you Marke this , and fo, by 
 God’s Grace will I. For our * rec- 
 koning will bee heavier , if wee 
 thus millead on either fide , then 
 theirs that follow us. But I fee ; 
 
with D .White the late Reverend®. of ElyjxnA he avows 
 this, and no other Anfwer. He Was asked in the Confe . 
 rence betweene you, Whether Topijh Errours were Funda- 
 mentally To this he gave an Anfwer, by Tijlin Elion of the i 
 Ter Jons which held and profejjed the Errours : Namely , that 
 the Errours were Fundamentall reductive, by a R educement , 
 if they which embraced thtmflid per time ioujly adhere to them 3 
 having fufficient meartes to be better informed : Nay far - 
 ther, t bat they were materially and in the Very kinde and 
 Nature (fthemfzMenJDrofe? Hay, and Stubble* Yet he a x Cor.3 is, 
 thought withall , that fuch as were mijled by education ,or long 
 cuftome,or overvaluing the SoVeraignty of the Roman Church s 
 4«d did in Jimplicity of heart embrace them , might by their 
 generall Repentance , and Faith in the JMerit of ChriH y at- 
 tended with Q?arity y and other c Vertues,finde mercy at Gods 
 hands. Tut that he fl)ould fay fignanter^id exprejly y That 
 none either of yours, or your Fellowes Errours Were damna- 
 ble Jo long as you hold them not againfl Confciencejhat he ut- 
 terly difaVoWes .You delivered nothing to extort fuch a Conjep 
 Jion fromhitn. And for your felfe y he could oiferVe but fmatt 
 loVe of Truth few fignes of Grace in you (as he told me: ) Yet 
 he will not prefume to judge you, or your falvation • It is the 
 b Word of Cbriflthat mu jl judge you at the later day. For b Slohn 12.48. 
 your Qonfcience y you are the happier in your Errour , 
 that you hold nothing againft it^fpecially ifyou fpeak 
 not againft it^while you fay fo. But this no man can 
 know, but your felfe^For no man knowes the thoughts of a 
 manjbut the Spirit of a man that is 'Within him, to which I <tCor.2.n* 
 leave you. 
 
 To this A. C. replyes. And fir ft he grants, that Hum 2. 
 ©.White did?iot fignanter and exprejly fay thefe pre - A.c.f.67. 
 cife words. So then here’s his plaine Confefliom Not 
 the fe precife Words. Secondly he faith y that neither did 0 
 ©. White fi f ianter andexprefly make the Anfwer above 
 mentioned „ b u: to this lean make no Aniwcr,fmcel 
 
 S f 3 was 
 
/ 
 
 3'B 5*37* 
 
 was not prefent at the firft or fecond Conference 
 Thirdly , fce /ait/; Peajrn which moyed the Iejuite , to 
 
 jay D. White hadjecured him , Wasbecaufethe fadDoBor 
 had granted in his firjl (Conference with the lefuite the/e 
 things following . fir ft fl hat there mujl be one or other Church 
 continually yflble. Though D.Whitejztc Tijhop of Ely , 
 was more able to Anfwcr for hknfelfe , yet fince he is 
 now dead , and is thus drawne into this Di/courfe, 
 I (half as well as I can , doe him the right, which his 
 Learning, and Paines for the Church deferved. And 
 to this firjl, I grant as well as he, That there mujl be jome 
 one Church or other continually Ytftble: Or that the Militant 
 Qurch of Chrift mult alwayes be vifible in fome Par* 
 ticularsy or Particular at leaft ( exprefle it as you pleafe.) 
 For ifthis be not fo,thcn there may be a time in which 
 there (hall not any where be a vifible Profeffion of the 
 Name of Chrift ; which is contrary to the whole fcope 
 and promife of the GofpelL 
 
 Num.j Well What then ? Why then j{. C. addes , That 
 A.C.fSy, yy White confejjed that this Vifible Qmrch had in all ages 
 taught that unchanged Faith of Qhnfl in all Points Funda* 
 mentall D. White had reafon to fay that the Vifible 
 Church taught foibut that this or that Particular Vifible 
 Church did (6 teach, fure D. White affirmed not; unleilc 
 in cafe the whole Vifible Church of Chrift were reduced 
 to one Particular only. 
 
 N u m . 4. hut luppofe this. What then ? Why then Af.telies 
 
 . p, 6 j, U s ^that D. White being urged to afligne fuch a (hurch 5 ex* 
 prefly granted he could afligne none different from the po- 
 manCyWhich held in all ages aUPoints Fundamentall. Now 
 here l would faine know what A. C e meanes by a 
 Church different from the P^omme . For if he mean dfferent 
 • in Place • * Tis eafie to affirme the Greeks Church ( which 
 * as hath* before beeneprooved) hath ever held, and 
 
 taught th ^Foundation in the midft of all her Prcliures. 
 
 ' And 
 
§• 57* 3 
 
 \ V ~ • • 
 
 And if he meane different in T> o BrinallThing s ,and thole 
 ab r 'Ut the Faith, he cannot affigne theCWof? of ome 
 for olding them in all age*. But if he meane different s 
 in th - Foundation it felfc, the Creed • then his urging to 
 afligne a Church, is void, be it 'Pome , or any other For if 
 any other Church ftiall thus differ from Rome , or Pome 
 from it felfe, as to deny this Foundation i it doth not, it 
 cannot remainc a Differing Church, fed tranfit in Non 
 Ecclefiam , but pafles away into No-Church, upon the 
 Denyall of the Creed . 
 
 Now what A. C meanes, heexprefles nor, nor Hum. 
 can I tell , but I may peradventure gueffe nearc it , by 
 that which out of thefe Premifes , he would inferre. 
 
 For hence he tels us, he gathered that D. White s Opinion A , c, p, 
 was,That the pomane Qhurch held and taught in ullages un - 
 changed Faith in all Fmdamentall Points, and did not in any 
 age erre in any Point Fundamentally This is very well. 
 
 For Ay C. confefles,he did but gather, that this was Do- 
 dor Whites Opinion. And what if he gathered that, 
 which grew not there,nor thence? For fuppofe all the 
 Premifes true, yet no Cartropc can draw this Conclufion 
 out of them. And then all C\ labours loft. For 
 grant fome one Church or other muft ftill beVifiblc. 
 
 And grant that this Vifiblc Church held all Funda- 
 mentals of the Faith in all ages. And grant againe that 
 D. White could not affigneany Church differing from 
 the Pomane ,thai did this ; Yet this will not follow, that 
 therefore the Romane did it. And that becaufe there's 
 more in the Conclufion , then in the Premifes y For ^.0. ^ c.p . 
 Conclufion is, That in D. White's Opinion the Pomane 
 Church held and taught in all ages unchanged Faith in all Fun - ' 
 d ament all P oint s , And fo farre perhaps the Conclufion 
 may ftand, taking Fmdamentall Points in their literall 
 fenfe, as they are exprefled in Creedes , and approved Coun- 
 sels .But then he addes , And did not in any age erre in any 
 
 Point 
 
3 20 
 
 Num. 6. 
 A.C . p’67. 
 
 Point Funiamentall. Now this can never follow out of 
 the Prem'tfes before laid downe. For fay fome one 
 Church or other may ftill be Vifible ; And that Vifi- 
 ble Church hold all Fundamcntall Points in all Ages- 
 And no man be able to name another Church diffe- 
 rent from the Church of %ome y that hath done this • 
 yet it followes not therefore^ T hat the Church of pome 
 did not erre in any age in any Point Fundamentall. Fora 
 Church may hold the Fundamcntall Point Literal - 
 ly , and as long as it ftayes there, be without controlle* 
 and yeterre grofly , dangeroufly > nay damnally in the 
 Expofition of it. And this is the Church of Pomes cafe. 
 For moft true it is , it hath in all ages maintained the 
 Faith unchanged in the Expreflion of the Articles 
 themfelves-but it hath in the expofition both of Creed f, 
 and Ccuncels , quite changed^nd loft the fenfe, and the 
 meaning of fome of them. So the Faith is in many 
 things changed both for life and beliefe^and yet feems 
 the lame. Now that which deceives the world is, 
 That becaufethe Parke is the fame, men thinkc this 
 old decayed Tree , is as found as it was at firft y and 
 not weather-beaten in any age. But when they can 
 make me believe that Faulting is true ^Beauty , Vie be- 
 lieve too } that Pome is not only found y but beautiful!. 
 But A.C. goes on and tcls u sfThat hereupon the Iefuite 
 as he d^wh ether Errors in Points not Fundamental's* ere damna- 
 ble) And that I), White anfwered y they Sbere not y unlejfe they 
 were held again’sl con/cience.Tis true, that Error in Points 
 not Fundamental l is the more damnable 7 the more 
 it is held again ft confcience; But it is true too,that Error 
 in Points not Fundamental may be damnable to fome 
 men, though they hold it notagainft their confciencu 
 As namely, when they hold an Errour in fome Dan- 
 gerous Points , which grate upon the Foundation , and 
 yet will neither feeke the meanes to know the Truth , 
 
 nor 
 
 . 
 
I 
 
 $• 57 * 311 
 
 nor accept and believe Truth when Vis known,e/pe- 
 dally being men -'Me to luJgc * which I feare 5 is the 
 cafe of too nr >’ Jay in the 0 {omane Church , 
 
 Out of all which as, The Iefuite collected , that 4 r 
 
 V, White’s Opinion ^vas , 1 hat the mane Church held all 
 1 Toints Fundamental and only erred in Foints not Funda- 
 mentally which he acc ' unted not damnable Jo long as he did not 
 hold them again]} his Qonfeience • And that thereupon hee 
 f aid D. White had fecund him , fince he held no Faith diffe- 
 rent from the { R^nune 3 nor contrary to his Conference. Here 
 againe , wee have but A C s a and the lefuites Collection : 
 
 But if the Iejuitt, or A. C. will collect amifle ? who can 
 helpeit ? 
 
 I have fpoken before in this very ^Paragraph to all Num. .7. 
 thePalTagesof A. C. as fuppofing them true : andfet 
 downc what is to be anfwered to them y in cafe they 
 proove (o. But now’tis moft apparent by D, Whites 
 Anfwer, fet down e before tatlarge, that he never t§. 37 ^ J ‘ 
 faid,that the Church of .Rowe erred onely in Points 
 not Fundamentally as A. C. would have it. But that 
 lice laid the contrary , Namely , that fomt errours of 
 that Church were Fundament all rcduSive , by a Re- 
 ducement , if they which embraced them , did pertina- 
 cioufly adhere to thm 3 having fufficient meanes of in- 
 formation. And againe expreily, That hee did not fay 3 
 that none Tfefi re damnable , fo long as they were not held 
 againH Conjcience . Now where is A. C s . Cohesi- 
 on? For if a lefuite 3 or any other may collett Fro* 
 pojitions , which are not granted him, nay con- 
 trary to thofc which are granted him, hee may 
 inferre what hee pleafe. And he is- much too blame , 
 that will not inferre a ftrong (ffonclujion for him 
 felfe , that may frame his owne Fremijes , fa 
 his Adverfary what hee will. And juft fo dot 
 A . C. bring in his Conclufion , to fecure himfel 
 
 T t of 
 
tA, c> h^7' 
 
 y-i §•& 
 
 of falvation, bec iufe he holds no Faith hut the (Romane, 
 nor th.it Contrary to his Co ifcience : Prcfuppofing it grant- 
 ed, that the Church of (Rome erres only in not Funda* 
 ?nentahfind fuch Errours not Damnable } which is ab- 
 lolutely and clearly dcnyed by D. White. To this A. C . 
 (ayes nothing, but that 2). White did not give this An - 
 frer at the Conference. I was not prefent at the Confe- 
 rence betweene them, fo,to that l can fay nothing as 
 a witneflfw But I thinke all that knew D. White 3 will be- 
 lieve his affirmation as fooneas the lefuites . To fay 
 no more. And whereas A. C. referres to the Relation 
 of the Conference betweene D. White and M. Fifher 
 moft true it is , there * D. White is charged to have 
 made that Anfwer twile. But all this refts upon the 
 credit of A. C only (For t he is faid to have made that 
 Relation too, as well as this .) And againft his Credit 1 
 mull engage D. Whites , who hath avowed another 
 Anfwer, as a before is fee downe. 
 
 And fine c A. C. relates to that Conference , which it 
 feemes hee makes fomegood account of ? 1 fhall here 
 once for all take occafion to aflurethe Reader j That 
 moft of the ! Points of Moment in that Conference with 
 D. White, are repeated againeand againe, and urged 
 in this Conference 5 or the Relation of A. C. and are 
 here anfwered by me. For inftance : In the Relation 
 of the firft Conference y the Iefuite takes on him to prove 
 the WnVbritten Word of God out of l.Theft. pig. 15 . And 
 fo he doth in the Relation of this Conference with me. 
 (2) p a & 5 o.In the firH he ftands upon itfThat the Proteftants 
 
 upon their Principles cannot hold v that all Fundament all points 
 of Faith are contained in the Creed, pag. 19. And lo he doth 
 f$) in this, pag. 46. In the fir ft y he would fainethrough 
 
 M. (Rogers fides wound the Church of England , as if fhee 
 wereunfetled in the Article ofChrift's Dejcent into Hell 
 pag 21- And he endeavours the fame in this. pag. 46. In 
 
 the 
 
 A % C.p. 6 y. 
 
 *^.C.inhis re- 
 lation of that 
 Conference, p. 
 . 2 6 . 
 
 jTor fo’cis faid 
 in the Title- 
 page, by A.C, 
 
 3 §* 37. -2^.1. 
 Num. 8 . 
 
 ro 
 
§•17 
 
 m 
 
 m 
 
 0) 
 
 
 C7J 
 
 fs; 
 
 the firfl he is very earn eft to prove, That the Schifme Tbas 
 made by the Trote Slants, pag. 1 3 . And he is as earn eft for 
 it in this, 55. In the firfl hclayes itforaCround , 
 
 That Qorruption of Manners is no juH Caufe of feparation 
 from Faith y or Church, pag . 24. And the fame Ground he 
 layes in this. pag. 55. In the firfl he will have it, That the 
 Holy Ghofl giyes continual f and Infallible ^JFiftance to the 
 Church, pag. 14. And juft To will he have it in this ,p 53. 
 
 In the firfl he makes much adoe about the Errig of the 
 Greekt Church, page 2 8. And as much makes he in this. 
 page 44. In the firft y hc makes a great noyfe about the 
 place in S. Augufline , Ferendus eft difputator errans {?c. 
 page 1 8. and *4. And fo doth hee here alfo, page 4 5. 
 
 In the firfl he would make his Profelytes believe. That 
 he and his Caufe have mighty advantage by that Sen- 
 tence of S. P>ernard y Tis intolerable P ride: And that of 
 S. Augufline y *Tis inf dent madnefse to oppofe the Do£lrine 3 or 
 PraBice of the Catholike QhuVch page 25. And twife he is 
 at the fame Art in this. page 5 6. and. 73. In the firfl , he 
 tels us, That * Calvin confeffcs., That in the Reformat ion, 
 there was a Departure from the'toholelborld.pdge 25. And mundo ™ jjfe re 
 though I conceive CalYtne fpakc this but of the Roman coa6ti JumHS. 
 Tborldy and of no Voluntary 0 but a forced Departure, and H 3 *. 
 
 wrote this to Mclmftbon 5 toworke Vnity among the 
 (fie formers, not any way to blaft the Reformation : Yet 
 we muft hcare of it againe in this. page 5 6. But over 
 and above the reft , one Place with his ownc gloffe up- 
 on it pleafes him extremely /Tis out of S .Athanafius his 
 Creed. That whofoeVer doth not hold it entire ,that is y (faith 
 he) in all Points : and Inyiolate , that is , (faith hee) 
 in the true , unchanged $ and uncorrupted fenfe propofed un- 
 to us by the Rafters of his Catholike Churchy without doubt he 
 [hall peri ft) eVerlajlingly. This he hath almoft ^verbatim 
 in the firfl ^page 20. And in theEpiftleofthe Publifher 
 of that Relation to the Reader , under the Name of 
 
 T t 2 
 
 OB) 
 
 (««i 
 
3H $ 5 8 ' 
 
 y/ l and then againe the very fame in this , if not 
 with forne more difadvantage to himfelfe.page 70. 
 And perhaps ( had I leafure to fearch after them ) 
 more Points then thefe. Now the Reafons which 
 * in tl beoin _ mooved mee to fet downe thefe Particulars thus 
 ing of the Con- diftindtly, are two. The One, that whereas th.e*Ze- 
 b^Tc ieC ° UC f utte affirmes, that in a fecond Conference all the 
 fpeech was about Particular matters, and little or 
 nothing about the maine , and great generall Point 
 of a Continuall , Infallible ? c V'tftble Qmrch } in which 
 that Lady required fatisfa£tion , and that there- 
 fore this third Qonference was held 5 It may here- 
 by appearc that the mo ft material!, both Points , 
 and Proofcs are upon the matter the very lame ia 
 all the three Conferences , though little bee related 
 of the fecond Conference by A. C. as appeares in 
 the Preface of the Publifhcr W. I. to the Rea- 
 der. So this tends to nothing but Ojlentation , and 
 {hew. The Other is , that Whereas thefe men boaft 
 fb much of their Caufc and their Ability to defend 
 it • It cannot but appeare by this 3 and their handling 
 of other Points in Divinity, that they labour indeed, but 
 no other wife, then like an Horfein a MZ/jround about 
 in the fame Circle j no farther at night then at noone • 
 The fame thing over and over againe ,• from 7 u es 
 Petrus , to Pafce oVes, from thou art Peter , to Do rhou 
 feed my SheepejAnd backe againe the fame way. 
 
 < 1 ■ - v - 
 
 p. The Lady asked, Whether [he might be f fvei in 
 the Proteflant Faith ? ypon my foule ( Jaid the 
 Pifhopjyou may. Vpon my joule {/aid I ) there 
 is but one faYing Faith , and that is the r l{omane. 
 
 §* 3 s * B So (it feems) I was confident for the Faith pro- 
 N u m. i. felled in the Church of England, els I would not 
 
 have 
 
 > i 
 
•f 
 
 31? 
 
 have taken the faivation of another upon my foule. 
 
 And fure I had real on of this my Confidence. For to 
 believe the Scripture, andth e Creeds, to believe thefe 
 in the fenfe of the Ancient Trimitiye Church fTo receive 
 the foure great Generali Qouncels , fomuch magnified 
 by Antiquity * To believe all Points of DoCtrine, ge- 
 nerally received as Fundamental! in the Qkurcb of 
 Chrifl, is a Faith ? in which to live and die, cannot but 
 give faivation. And therefore i went upon a fure 
 ground in the adventure of my loule upon that Faith. 
 
 Befides, in all the Points of Doctrine that are contro- 
 verted betweeneus, I would faine fee anyone Point 
 maintained by the Church of England , that can be pro- 
 ved to depart from the Foundation . You have many 
 dangerous Errours about the very Foundation^ in that 
 which you call the Romane Faith : But there l leave 
 you to looke to your owne foule, and theirs whom 
 you feduee. Yet this is true too, I hat there is but one 
 faying Faith. But then every thing which you call Ve 
 Fide y of the Faith 3 becaufe fome CounceU or other hath 
 defined it, is not fuch a Breach from that One faying 
 Faith, as that he which exprefly believes it not, nay, as 
 that he which believes the Contrary, is excluded from 
 Salvation, fo his * Difobcdience therewhile offer no vio- ^ 3 2 - 
 lencetothe Teaceoi the Church , nor the Charity , which 
 ought to be among Chrijitans. And D Bellarmine is for- *&f<>fatkueceffa- 
 ced to grant this, T here are many Things de Fide, which s £ lute ™. 
 are not abfolutely necefary to falyation. c Therefore eicief Multf 
 there is a Latitude in the Faith, efpecially in refe- ^§*0^6^ 
 rence to different mens falyation. To fet d Bounds c Wald. < z>^ 
 to chis*.and ftriCtly to define it for particular men, Jutt 4 2 . Ar. * 2 „ 
 thus fane you muft believe in every Particular , or in- f ^ ? 
 currc Damnation, is no wwke for my Ten. Thefe 
 two things I am fure of. One , That your peremptory 
 efiablifhing of fo many things , that are remote 
 , Tt } Deductions 
 
%i6 
 
 £.38. 
 
 Deductions from the Foundation , to bee believed as 
 Matters of Faith ncccflaty to Salvation, hath, with 
 other Errours, loft the Teace and 'TMity of the Church, 
 for which you will one day Anfwer. And the other , 
 That you of Rome are gone farther from the Founda- 
 tion of this One faying Faith, then can ever be proved^ 
 we of the Church of England have done; 
 
 But here c/4. C. beltirres himfelfe, finding that he 
 is come upon the Point, which is indeed moft confix 
 
 derable. And firft hec anfwers , 
 That it is * not fufficient to beget a 
 Confidence in this Cafe, to fay ypee be- 
 lieve the Scriptures and the Creeds fin 
 the fame (enjeyobich the Ancient Pri- 
 tnitiye Church believed them , &c, 
 Moft true, if weoncly /^,anddo 
 not belieye. And let them which 
 belieye not, while they fay they doe, 
 looketo it on all fides, for on all 
 fides I doubt not, but fuch there 
 are. But if we doe fay it, you are 
 bound in Charity to believe us, 
 
 S”“ p»™ ■>" c ™“- 
 
 fi les R ule i S .James 2.1 2.)as that profeffi- Ty) For I ktlOW nO Other proofe tO 
 on of it, which was fufficient for Pope mcri of an y p 0 j nt G f Faith, but 
 
 poore p rot eft ants, LonfeJSion ot it , and bubjcnption to 
 
 it. And for thefe particulars, we 
 have made the one, and done the other* So’tisnobare 
 faying, but you have all the proofe that can be had, or 
 that ever any Church required : For how farre that 
 Beliefc,or any other linkes into a man’s heart, is for 
 none to judge but God. 
 
 N u m . 3. Next , c/4. C Anfwers , That if to fay this be a fuf 
 
 ficient Caufe of Confidence , he maryels ychy 1 make fuch 
 difficulty to bee Qonfident of the Safoation of Romane 
 
 Qatholikes , 
 
 NllM.2. 
 A. C.p. 6 %. 
 
 * Tope Telagin * the fecena thought it 
 was luffieient. For when the Ttfheps of 
 Ifiria deferted his Communion in Caufa 
 trium Capitulorum • He til'll gives them 
 an Account of his Faith, that he embra- 
 ced that Faith, which the Apoflles had 
 delivered, and the foure Synods explica- 
 ted. And then he adds ; r Ubi ergo de Ti- 
 des fir mi t Ate nulla vobis poterit qu&flio, 
 vel fufpicio generari, &c. (foncil. To. 4. 
 p. 473. Edit. Paris. So then, that Pope 
 thought there could be no quellion made, 
 or fulpition had of any mans faith, that 
 profeiVed that Faith, which the *s 4 po files 
 delivered as *cis explicated by thofe 
 Great ('omccls. And yet now with 
 A. (f, *cis not luffieient. Orels beholds 
 
('atbolikf s , who believe all this in a fiu re better manner 
 t u enProt,cfiants doe. Truly, to fay this, is nor a luffi- 
 cientcaufe , but to fayi nd believe it^ is. And to take 
 off .//. C s . wonder why I make difficulty , great diffi- 
 culty of the falvation of Romane .Cat holikes , who ) he 
 fayes , believe aU this , and in a farre better manner 
 then Protettants doe . I muff be bold to tell him, That 
 omanifls ate fo farre from believing this in a better 
 manner then we do, that, under favour, they believe 
 not part of this at all. And this is mod manifeff 
 For the Romanics dare not believe, but as the 5 y 0 - 
 mane Church believes: And the Romane Church at this 
 day doth not believe the Scripture and the Creeds in the 
 fenfe/mtbe which the Ancient Primitive Church received 
 them. For the Primitive Church never interpreted 
 Chrifl's def cent into Hell to be no lower then Limbus Pa - 
 trum. Nordic it acknowledges ‘Purgatory in a fide- 
 part of Hell. Nor did it ever interpret away halfe the 
 Sacrament from fbrijl's owne Inflitution , which to 
 breake, * Stapleton confeffes exprefly, is a dam -able Er- of Vntruchs up- 
 row ; Nor make the Intention of the Prieft of the 
 Sffence of r Baptifme ; Nor believe worfbip due to 4 p.foi. 44 . 
 
 J mages ; Nor dreame of a Tranfubfl antiation , which 
 the Learned of the Romane Partie dare not under- 
 ftand properly , for a change of one fubflance into 
 another, for then they muff grant that Chrift’s re- 
 all and true Body is made of the Bread , and the 
 Bread changed into ir, which is properly Tranfubfian : 
 
 tiation Nor 
 yet can they 
 expre lTe it 
 in a credi- 
 bleway, as 
 appeares by 
 f BeHarmines 
 
 t Eft totals f onverfto fubftantia Tank & Vint in Corpus & Sanguinem 
 /Bomini. Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c . 18. §.i. Subftl anti ahs cenVcrfo. fiu 
 Tranfubftantiatio, fteut Eccle fa appel/at . Greg, de Vilen-. To . 4 D ftp 6 . 
 q.^.pund,^. Nowyoufhall tee what ftuffe Bellar mine makes of this. 
 Converfio Tank in Corpus ( Bom<ni i nec eft Product iva 3 #ec Confervativa J 
 fed Adduct iva. Nam Corpus Bomini praexiftit ante Conver fionem,fisi 
 non fub fpeciebus Tank. Conver fw igitur non facit , ut Corpus Chrifti 
 /implicit er r fie incipiaty fedut incipiat efie fub fpeciebus Pants } &c. Bel- 
 lar. L. 7 y.de Eucbar.c. 18. §. Ex bk colligimus . So upon the whole 
 matter, there ihall be a totall Converlion of the Bread into the Body of 
 
 ft niggle 
 
5 
 
 
 %y * { 
 
 fubfiantiaticn. And I would have Bcllarm* or any Iefuitefov him, fliew 
 where Convey fio Adduttiva is read in any good Author. But when Bellar, * 
 comes to the ReCognic ion of his worker, upon this place he tels us, That Cnd Cannot 
 fome excepted again!! lnm, as it this were Tranflocation y rather then Tran- ^ 
 
 fubfiantiarion So in this charge upon him I am nor alone. And faine would ^ 
 
 he .hi it otf this, but ic will not be. but while he is at it, he runs into two Called lrcM- 
 precty Errours,belide the maine one. The firfi is, That the body of Chrift fuUTlantiAt ’ 
 in the Sacrame ic i egms to be, non ut in loco , fed at fubjlantia fab Acciden- f 
 tibus. Now let B Alarm or A.C. for him give me any one Inllance, That Oil and is 
 aBouily Subitance unde. Accidents, is, or can be any where, and no cut in 1 i • j 
 
 loce y \<i m lnmeplaceyand he layeslomwiiat. The/mWis, That Tome Fa- > 
 thersand othei Ltme (he fayes, but I lee it notj to approve of his manner at this day 
 of fpeech of Convcrlion by Adduftiou. And he tels us for this, that Bona- • j. p 
 venture fayrs exprefly, In Tranjub/lamiatione fit , ut quoderat alicubiy Can- 
 
 fine fut mu tat tone fit alibi. Now firfi here’s nothing that can be drawne dall toboth 
 with Cart-ropes to pr we converhon by Adduttion. For if there be Con- q 
 
 verfion, there n ut be Change; And this is fine mutatione fni. And fecond- m 
 
 ly, I would faine know, how a Body that is alicubi , ihall be alibi , with- tile , 2 nd tpC 
 nut change of it ieife, and yet that this ihall be rather Tranfiab (1 antiation (ghurch of 
 then Tranfioc Alton. Betides , *tis a Fhrafc of very fowre Conlequence ^ , 
 
 ( (kould a man fquieze it ) which Bellar. ufes there even in hisRccogni- ^OCS. 
 tion. Pants tranfit in Corpus Chrifii. *Foi all this 
 
 f A Scandall, and a grievous one. For this grolfe Opinion was but confir- , ^ 
 medinthe Cemcell of Lateran: It had got fome footing intheChuicb, 
 the two blinde ages before. For Berengarim was made recant in fuch 012, 2nd tcl$ 
 Termcs, as the Romanifis are put to their lliifts to excufe, Bellar* L. 3. de . V . .1 
 Euchar. c. 24. §. Quartum Argumentum. For lie fiyes exprefly: Corpus > J J 
 Chrifii pc fie in Sacramento fenfttalker mambas Saccrdotum iraclari-, & (Ot FvCITIC) 
 frangi, & fideltum dentibus atteri. Deer. par. 3. de Confecratione. Disl. cUHTlOt l?e PfO- 
 2 . C. Ego Berengavius. Now this Recantation was made about the yeare * 
 
 1050, And the was in the yeare my. Betweeue *Ped id depart 
 this grolfe Recantation of BerengariuSy and chat C ouncslly the great Lear* fyg pQyft* 
 
 ned Phylitian and Philofopher Averroes lived, and tooke fcandall at the J ? . r , 
 
 whole Body of Chriflian Religion for this. And thus he faith: Man .m dat WriJOWU^b 
 peragravty dec. O' non vidi Settamdeteriorem , am magis fatuam ( hrifh - ^ ProtejldtS 
 and^uia'Deum^ quern colunty dentibus devorant, Efptncaeus L. 4. deSu- , c 1 
 
 char. aAnratinfie. r . 2 . a0 ‘ 50 ‘- nCI b 
 
 We have at 
 
 lafi a Confeftion here, that they may be prooved to de- 
 part from the Foundation, though no: iomuch, or fo 
 farre as the Troteflants doe. I do not meane ro anfwer 
 this,and prove that the ^manijls do depart as farre, or 
 farther from the Foundation , then the Trotejlants . for 
 then A.C would take me at the (ame lift , and lay I 
 granted a departure too. Briefly therefore , I have 
 
 named 
 
 char . adoraticne. c\ 3 . 
 * N U m. 4. 
 
 A. C.p . 69. 
 
named here more Infdnces then one- In feme of 
 
 which they haveerred in the foundation, or very neare 
 
 it. Burforth c Chwch of England, let inflance>ifhe 
 
 can, in any orte point, in whichShehath dcparted.from 
 
 the Foundation. Well, that i4.C. will do-. For he Byes, ^ G ^ 
 
 The Trotef ants err e agdnjl the Foundation, ly denying In- ?'-9 
 
 fallible Authority to a Generali Councell , for that m in effecl 
 
 to deny Infallibility to the whole Catholtke Church . a No , 
 
 theres a great deale of difference betweenc a Generali 
 
 Cottncell and the "tohole 'Body of the Qhurcb . And when 
 
 a Generali Councell erres, asthe fecondof Ephe/us did, out 
 
 of that great Catholtke ‘Body another may be gathered, 
 
 as was then that of Chalcedon , to doe the Truth of 
 
 Chrift that right, which belongs unto it. Now if 
 
 it were all one in effedfc to fay, a Generali Counted 
 
 can erre, and that the Whole Church can erre^ nConfan 
 
 there were no Remedy left a gain fta Generali Councell A^. 4 . r 
 
 erring- b which is your Cale now at ${ome, and 
 
 which hath thruft the Church of Chtift into more 
 
 ftraits then any one thing befides. But t know where 
 you would be. A Generali Councell is Infallible, if it be 
 confirmed by the Tope-, and the ‘Tope he is Infallible , 
 els he could not make the Councdl lo. And they which 
 deny the Councels Infallibility , deny the Topes which 
 confirmesit. And then indeed the iProteflants depart 
 a mighty way from this great Foundation of Faith , the 
 Topes Infallibility But God be thanked,this is only from 
 the Foundation of theprelent T^mane Faith, ( as^.f.and j tCt K 
 th elefuite call it) not from any Foundation of iheChri ft i an 
 Faith, to which this Infallibility waseveraflranger. 
 
 From Anfwering, A. C. fals to asking Queftu Num. 5 
 ons. I thinke he meanes ro try whether he can win 
 anything upon’me, by the cunning way J fault is 
 Interrogattonibus fimul , by asking many things at 
 once, to fee if any one may make me flip into a 
 
 V V Confeflicn 
 
S- 5 s - 
 
 Confeffion inconvenient. And firft, he asks, How 
 \ Proteflants , admitting no Infallible %/e of Faith 3 but 
 Scripture onely, can be infallibly fure that they believe the 
 fame entire Scripture y and (fee f and the Foure firfl Gene- 
 rali Councets , and in the fame incorrupt ed fenfe in Tt>hich 
 the Primitive Church believed ? Tis juft as I faid. Here 
 arc many Queftions in one , and I might eaiily be 
 caught , would I anlwer in grofle to them all toge- 
 ther •, but l fhall go more diftin&ly to workc. Well 
 then 5 1 admit no ordinary Pjtle left now in the Church, 
 of Divine and Infallible Verity, andfo of Faith, but 
 the Scripture, And I believe the entire Scripture^// by 
 thcTradition of the Church,* Then by all other credible 
 Motives, as is before exprefied : And fay? of all, by the 
 light which flhincs in the Scripture it felfe, kindled in 
 Believers by the Spirit of God . Then I believe the en- 
 tire Scripture Infallibly, and by a Divine Infallibility am 
 fure of my Objett : Then am l as fure of my ( BelteVing y 
 which is the All of my Faith , converfant about this 
 Objett : For no man believes , but he muft needs know 
 in himfelfe whether he believes or no, and wherein, 
 and how farre he doubts. Then I am infallibly aflii- 
 ted of my Creed , the Tradition of the Church indu- 
 cing, and the Scripture confirming it. And I believe 
 both Scripture and Creed in the fame uncorrupted fcnlc 
 which the Primitive Church believed them, and am 
 fure that I do fo Believe them, becaule I crofle not in 
 my !Beliefe any thing delivered by the Primitive Church: 
 And this againe I am fure of,becaufe I take the Beliefc 
 of the Primitive Qhurch , as it is exprcflcd,and delivered 
 by the Councels , and Ancient Fathers of thole times. As 
 for the Foure Councels, if^.C.aske how I have them, 
 that is , their true and entire Copies ? I anlwer , \ 
 have them from the Church-Tradition onely : And 
 that’s Aflurance enough for this. And to I am 
 
§• 
 
 fully as lure as A. C. is, or can make tnee^ But if hee 
 aske how I know infallibly I believe them in their 
 true and uncorrupted jenfel Then I anfwer, There's 
 no man of knowledge, but hee can underftand the 
 plaine and fimple Decifion expreffed in the Canon 
 of the Qounctll, where 'tis neceffary to Salvation. 
 
 And for all other debates in the Qouncels , or Vecifions 
 of it in things of leffe moment , Tis not neceffary 
 that J, or any man elfe , have I?i fallible AjJ'urance of 
 them • though l thinke us poflible to attaine^ even 
 in thele things, as much Infallible Affttrance of the 
 uncorrupred lenfe of them , as A . C. or any other 
 lefuites have. 
 
 A C. askes againe , What Text of Scripture tels , Num. 6. \ 
 That Trotejl ants now living do believe all this , or that all 
 this is expreffed in thofe particular Bibles, or in the 
 Writings of the Fathers and Qouncels , Tbhich now are in 
 the Brotefiants hands ? Good God/ Whither will 
 not a flrong Bias carrie even a learned Judgement! 
 
 Why, what Confequence is there in this ? The 
 Scripture now is the onely Ordinary In fallible IQule 
 of Divine Faith* Therefore the Protejlants cannot 
 believe all this before mentioned , unleffe a parti- 
 cular Text of Scripture can be flhewed for it. Is it 
 not made plaine before * how We believe Scripture 
 to be Scripture , and by Divine and Infallible Faith 
 too , and yet wee can fhew no particular Text for 
 it? Befide* were a Text of Scripture neceffary, yet 
 that is for the Objett and the thing which we are 
 to believe, not for the AB of our believing, which 
 is mecrely from God , and in our felves , and for 
 which wee cannot have any Warrant from, or by 
 Scripture , more then that we ought to believe* but 
 not that we in our particular do believe. The reft 
 ©f the Queftion is farre more inconfequcnt, Whetier 
 
 ~ Vv J all 
 
 
all this lee exprejfed in the Bibles Tbhich are in Trote - 
 jlants hands ? For fir ft, we have the fame Bibles in our 
 hands, which the % omanifts have in theirs 3 Therefore 
 either we are Infallibly fure of ours, or they are not In- 
 fallibly lure of theirs; For we have the fame Booke, and 
 delivered unto us by the fame hands $ and all is ex- 
 preffed in ours, that is in theirs. Nor is it of moment in 
 this Argument,that we account more Jpocryphall then 
 they do ; For i will acknowledge every Fundamental 
 point of Faith as proveable out of the Canon -as we ac- 
 count it, as if the Jpocryphall were added unto it. Se - 
 condly, J. Q is here extremely out of himfelfe, and his 
 way 3 For his Qucftion is. Whether all this be exprejfed 
 q^cerwm Vfe in the Bibles Tbhich we have* All this! All what? why, be- 
 certitudi'»e Fi- fore there is mention of th efoure Generali Qouncels - and 
 in this Queftion here’s mention of the Writings of the 
 in verbs ( Dd: Fathers and theCouncels. And what ■ will ji.C. look that 
 ex vcrb j ° we muff fhew a Text of Scripture for all this, and an 
 tem Confeqnen- exprelle one too? 1 thought, and doe 10 ltill, ’tis 
 B*U enou Sj 1 10 g roun J Belie fe upon * 2fecejfary Conference 
 
 Jvfiif'c . 8 §. 2. out of Scripture, as well as upon exprejfe Text. And 
 
 this lam lure of, that neither 1 3 nor 
 
 “y «* * b »““ d «* Mi™ 
 
 Concilium. Nec ego hujus Anthontate , any thing as Neceflary to Salvati- 
 
 neOHiUfsde, inert. Scrip, <ur*r«mA»_ be it found in CoMlcds, 01 Fa- 
 
 thorttattbus, crc. Res cum re , Caufa > ^ ' 
 
 eumcaufd , %atio cum raticne concerm. thers, Or where yOU will, T if it be 
 
 S. Aug.L^.cont.Maximwum.ca+.Te- Contrary to expre fe Scripture , or 
 
 ftimonia Divtna %n fundament o ponevda - J ' r 1 r 1 . 
 
 /unt. S. Lug. L. 20.de Civ.Dei.c, i.Quia necejjary Lotjeepuence from it. And 
 principia hujus DoVtrwa per Revelatio- f 0 r the Copies of the Councels and 
 
 went hubcTituv jS7*c#Tho#p # i. I • A.*& , j -* t • t i 
 
 Solti Scriptur arum Libris Canonicis Fatlos Which ate in OUT hands, 
 
 didict hunc bonorem deferre , ut nullum they are the lame that are in the 
 
 mid firmifsime cred« m . lilies Lem hands of thc ^omamfts , and deli ve- 
 it a lego, ut quantaltbet fanttitate, doilri- red to Posterity by Tradition of the 
 
 Church, which is abundantly fuffi- 
 
 cient to warrant that. So we are as 
 
 Infallibly 
 
 ttdque pnpolleant , non ideo verumputem, 
 quod ipp it* , enjerunt , vel feripferunt. 
 
 S. Au z.Fpift. 
 
S'- 38- 
 
 Infallibly lure of this as ’tis pefiible for any of 
 
 you to bee. Nay, are wee not more fure? For wee 
 
 haveufed no Index Expurgatorius upon the Writings * sixth Senenf. 
 
 of the Fathers *, as you have done: So that Pofterity «dnp* 
 
 hereafter muftthanke us for true Copies both of Conn - 
 
 eels and Fathers , and not you. 
 
 But A C goes on, and askes ftill, Whether Prote - n u m. 7. 
 Slants bee Infallibly jure that they rightly understand the A.c.p. 6 $. 
 jenfe of all which is exprejjed in their ‘Books , according to 
 that which Haas under food by the Primitive Church , and the 
 Fathers which were prejent at the foure firf Generali Conn - 
 cels ? A.C . may askeeverlaftingly, if hee will askc the 
 fame over and over againc. For 1 pray wherein doth 
 this differ from his t firft Qucftion Javc only that here ,, 
 
 Scripture is not named ? For there the Queftion was ^ ‘* a 
 
 of our Affurance of the Incorrupted f mfe : And therefore 
 thither I refer you for Anfwer, with this,Thatitisnot 
 required either if us, or of them, that there (hould be 
 had an Infaliihe afturancc that wee rightly under- 
 ftand the fenfe of all that is expreffed in our Bookes ♦ 
 
 And I thinke I m ay believe without finne, that there 
 are many things jxprefled in thefe Bookes (Tor they are 
 theirs as well s ours) which A. C. and his FeZ/oim 
 have not InfaltiLe afiurance that they rightly under-* 
 ftand inthefenl of the Primitive (f hutch, or the Fa-* 
 tiers prefentin cl: Te Councils. And if they fay, yes, they 
 can, becaufe when a difficulty crcflcs them^hey be^ 
 lieve them in the Churches fenfe : Yet that dry fin ft 
 Will not ferve. For beliefeof them in the Churches 
 fenfe is an Implicit Faith-, bur it works nothing diftind- 
 lyupon the under ft andmg. For by an Implicite Faith 
 no man can be infallibly affured that hee doth rightly 
 underfland the fenfe (which is A . C s . Queftion ) what- 
 ever perhaps he may rightly belieVe . And an Implicite 
 Faith, and an Infallible under jlanding of the fame thing 
 
 V v 1 ~ under 
 
N u m. 8. 
 
 under the fame Considerations cannot poffibly ftand 
 together in the fame man at the fame time. 
 
 A. C hath not done asking yet : But he would 
 farther know , Whither Protejhnts can he Infallibly Jure 
 that all and onely thofe points which Protejlants account 
 Fundamentall and-necejjary to be exprejjely knowne by a!l y 
 were fo accounted by the C Primitive Church ? Truly ^Fnity 
 in the Faith is very ConfiderabJe in the C/m 7 ;. And in 
 this thcProteJlants agree, and as Fni/ormely as you, and 
 have as Infallible Afjurance as you can have,cf all points 
 which they account Fundamentall • yea, and of all, 
 which were fo accounted by the Primitive Church. And 
 thefe are but the Creed, and fomc few, and thofe////- 
 \Tert.prafcript . mediate deduBms from it. And dTertullian and * 
 
 fi ?m u p on the very Claufe of the; Qatholikt Church to 
 *Ruffw.w Sjmb. decypher it ,make a recitall only of the Fundamen- 
 tall Points of Faith. And for the firft of thefe, the 
 Creed, you fee what the fenfe of the Primitive Church 
 a Et mtjue ; vMe jettm tfi in di- vvas by that famous and knowne 
 
 cendo ex Ecclefia Prsfettis alia ab his di* place of a Iwi&US .* where after heC 
 
 Trad'uioncmimmimct. gulim enim uka had recited the Creed,2.s the Epitome 
 
 & eademfides fit, neque u,qui multum de OT Brief € of the Faith f he a ddes,That 
 
 fi none cf the Governors of the Church he 
 
 i. Adv.Har.c.i.& 3 . Et s.Bafil,Serf». they never fo potent to Bxprefje them - 
 
 de Fide To.z.v.p p 5 . Edit Bafil 1 505. f e fy is can r a y a lj a a b his, other things 
 Vna& Immobihs RegHla.&c, Atn.de J > J J > . * 
 
 veland . Virg. c. i. pom theje : Nor none J o Vatake tn fix- 
 
 b BFi antum “Aprwa Credibihagqmfunt p r e[\ l0n ^ f 0 diminifh this Tradition • 
 
 Artie uli Fidel, tenetur homo Exphcttc *, J r t -r • 7 * ) t , 
 
 credere , fient dr tenetur habere fidem. 1 Or Juice the raith IS One , and the Jdffie, 
 
 Quantum autem ad alia Credibilia &c. can j a y much ofitjfayes 110 IHOl't 
 
 Z then he 0U £ h G Kor doth he diminijh it, 
 
 neri. Tho.2.2 q.i.A.%.c, that can fay but little. And in this the 
 
 ZZX&Z&igpZ *«*«» »“ »F“- Andfor the/,- 
 
 explicit am non omnts tenentur. Holkot. COnd the immediate PeduclioilS 5 they 
 
 * n u f ent qa.adquartum. are ^ f orma lly Fundamentall for all 
 
 men, but for fuch b as are able cu make cr underftand 
 
 . them 
 
/ - 
 
 I 
 
 O') c 
 
 yy 
 
 nec tef fi- 
 ne c 
 
 S-? 8 - . . 
 
 ‘ } * V ’ 1 
 
 them. And for others , tis enough if they doe nor obfl't - 
 nat ly or Schematically refute them , after they are once 
 revealed Indeed you account many things Fundamen- 
 tal /, which were never lo accounted in any fenfe 
 by the Trimitivt Church j fuch as are all the Decrees of 
 'Genet all CouncelsjNhich may bealltrue, but can never 
 be all Fundament all in the Faith. For it is not in the pow- 
 er of *thc wholeChurch,much leffe 
 
 of a Generali fourteen 3 to make any Eccleft a, nec Concilium (ftenerale, »< 
 thine Fund ament all in the Faith , that (ft Wfms fomifex pet eft facen^rncz- 
 
 ° . . . turn quod non futt Artifulw. tArticulw 
 
 is not contained in the Letter or enim eft ex co folo , %*ve/*tus 
 
 fenfepf that common Faith flbicb Tf as “•*? 3 */«*'• 
 
 once given (and but once for all) c *'*' Dh 3 - 
 
 to f/?e Saints y S. fade 3. But if it be y/CX meaning to call s * lude verC 3, 
 
 for an infallible A durance of all fuch Points of Faith 
 
 as arc Decreed by Generali fern cels : Then I muft bee 
 
 bold to tell him ; All thole Decrees are not neceffary 
 
 to all mens falvation. Neither doe the Tpmanifls them- 
 
 felvcs agree in all fuch determined Toints of Faith • Be 
 
 they determined by Councelspr by Topes. For Inflan ce. 
 
 After thole Tookes (which wee account Apochryphall 
 were t defined to bee Canonic all, and t CmM TrUi Sef 4 _ 
 an Anathema pronounced in the a Six Sei .,'BMotb.Santt.L. 1 
 
 r' -C- a Or 1- y Non e necejfario credendstm J 
 
 Cafe,- Saw Smaft oaks fcn.pl. ’J£< JSS, 
 
 of lomeof them. And after h Pope in 3 ,/ent.Z ' ,q. mica Concluft 6 . Dh- 
 Leo the tenth had defined the Tope to 
 be aboue a Generali Councell 3 yet many Romans iatho - 
 likes defend the Contrary * And fo doc all the Sorho- 
 nifts at this very day. Therefore if thefebe Fundamen- 
 tal l in the Faith 5 the TpmaniHs differ one from another 
 in the Faith^ nay,in the Fundamentals of the Faith - And 
 therefore cannot have Infallible Affurance of them. Nor 
 is there tha t^Vnity in the Faith atnongft them, which 
 they fo much,and fo often boaft of. For what Scripture 
 is Canonicall is a great point of Faith, And I believe they 
 
 will 
 
 1 
 
*§. 3 8iV.tf, 
 
 N 11 M . 9. 
 
 A.C.p.6 9. 
 
 A.C.p, 72 *. 
 
 § 38. 
 
 will not now Confefle, That the powcrovera 
 Generali Councell is a (mail one. And fo iec A. C. looke 
 to his owns Infallible Affuranceoi Fundamentals in the 
 Faith -.for ours, God be thanked, is well. And fince 
 he is pleafed to call for a particular Text of Scripture to 
 proove all and every thing of this nature , which is 
 ridiculous in it felfe^and unreasonable to demand (as 
 hath beene * f hewed ) yet when he (hall bee pleafed to 
 bring forth but a particular knoVime Tradition, to proove 
 all and every thing of this on their fide , itwill then 
 be perhaps time for him to call for, and for us to give 
 farther Anfwer about particular Texts of Scripture. 
 
 After all this Queftioning A. C. inferres. That I 
 had need feeke out f me other Infallible P tde , and meanesfiy 
 which I may know theje things mfallily y or elfe that I have no 
 reafontobe fo confident, as to adventure my Joule , that one 
 may be fayed living and dying in the T rote ft ant faith. How 
 weake this Inference is, will eafily appeare , by that 
 which I have already faid to the premifes • And yet 
 I have fomewhat left to fay to this Inference alfo. And 
 fir ft, I have lived, and fha 11 ( God willing ) dye in the 
 Faithof Chrift , as it was profeffed in the Ancient Primi- 
 tive Church , and as it is profefled in the prefent Church 
 of England. And for the Pjde which governes me here- 
 in, if I cannot bee confident for my foule upon the 
 Scripture , and the Primitive Church expounding and 
 declaring it,! will be confident upon no other. And 
 fecondly , I have all the reafon in the world to be con- 
 fident upon this Pule, for this can never deceive me j 
 Another ( that very ocher which J. f. propofes ) 
 namely, the Faith of the Romane Church) may. Therefore 
 with A. f\ leave, I will venture my falvation upon 
 the Pule aforefaid , and not trouble my felfe to feeke 
 another of mans makingjiQ theforfaking or weakening 
 of this which God hath given me For I know they 
 
 Committed 
 
 
§- 3 8 - ' 337 
 
 > » • * * , j i , 
 
 ' % r . /, 
 
 (Committed two Evills , which forfooke the Fountain? 
 of Living Waters , to heV? out to themjelves Q fie rues, i : 
 
 Qjlernes , that can hold no Water . Ier.i. For Irr,2J ’ 9 
 here’s the Evill of Defertion of that which was right ; 
 and the Evill of a had Qhoife , of that which is hew’d 
 out with much paines and care 5 and is after Vfdeffe 
 and Vnproficable. But then Thirdly, I findc that a <Ko- 
 manijl may make ufe of an Implicate Faith ( at his plea- 
 fure,) but a Troteflant miift know all thefe things Infal- 
 libly j that’s A.C S . word, Kjtow thefe things j Why, but is 
 it not enough to believe them ? Now God forbid. 
 
 Whatfhall become of Millions of poorc (fhriflians in 
 the world 3 which cannot knoV> all thefe things, much 
 lefle know them Infallibly ? Wel^I would not have A.C. 
 weaken the Heliefe of poore Chriflians in thisfafhion. 
 
 But for things that may be knoVane as well as believed y 
 nor I, nor any other fhail need forfake the Scripture., 
 to feeke another T{ule to dire6f either our Conference pt 
 our Confidence . 
 
 In the next place A. C. obferves. That the.Iefuite was ^ u M # T 0 : 
 as confidetit for his part pith this difference that he had fuf i.e.p 6 $. 
 ficientreafon ofhisConftdence,but l had not for mine. This 
 is faid with the Co < 'ence of ale/uite, but as yet, but 
 faid. Therefore h' .sonandtelsus, That the Ie/uite A.C# 70. 
 had reafon of h s Q ice, out of exprefe Scriptures pad 
 Fathers, arid the ale Authority of the Qjurch. Now 
 
 m,with A. fX patience, he hath 
 ; is exprejjt', nor can he. And the 
 ich he hath alledged , I have*^//- * §.2^.5 
 iave others. As for Fathers , hee § 3 
 
 y few, and with what fuccefle, I 
 lers judgement. And for the Authority 
 Church, I hold it a as Infallible as he, and, 
 o*unds,but not fo ofa Generali (founcell , 
 which he here meanes, as appeares b after. And for h AC.p.ju 
 
 X x my 
 
 truly y ExpreJ]e S( 
 not named on 
 few Scriptures 
 fsvered, and ‘ 
 hath named 
 leave to the r 
 of the Cathoi 
 upon bette 
 
 3 §.21 'N.fl 
 
isf.C.p. 70. 
 
 Ephef.4. 5 . 
 *.§.35^.1. 
 
 1, 
 
 Rom, 14.4. 
 
 f §.3$.N.2. 
 ^yf.C.p.jo 
 
 a5.33.Ar. 12. 
 § 35 ^- 7 . 
 
 my pare I muft yet thinke ( and 1 doubt A. C. will not 
 be able to difprovc it) that exprefle Scripture, and Fa- 
 thers , and the Authority of the Church will rather be found 
 proofes to warrant my Confidence , then his. Yea 5 
 but A.C. faith/rhat I did not then taxethe Ief uite with any 
 rafhnefle. It may be fo. Nor did he me. So there we 
 parted even. Yea but he faith again, that lacknoTvledge 
 there is but one JaVmg Faith , and that the Lady might be fa V- 
 td in the Romane faith 9 which wxs all the lejuite tooke upon 
 his (oide. Why, but if this be all, I will confefle it again. 
 The fir ft, That there is but one faith, I confefle with 
 S. Faul, Ephef 4. And the offer 5 that the Lady might be 
 faved in th cF{omane Faith or Church *, I confefle with 
 that charity which S. Taul teacheth me, Namely , to 
 leave all men, efpeeially the weaker both fex and fort, 
 which hold the Foundation, to Jtand or fall to their olene 
 Mafterjfym. 4. And this is no mijlaken charity . As for 
 the Inference which you would draw out of it, that’s 
 anfwered at large t already. But then A. C. addes ,tka{ 
 I j ay , but without any proofe , that the F^omaniHs have many 
 dangerous errours, but that I neither tell than TVbich they be. 
 nor why 1 think them dangerous , but that l leave them to looke 
 to their olvne foules • which (he fayes) they doe > and have no 
 caufe to doubt. How much the Iefuite and A . C. have 
 faid in this Conference, without any folid proofe , I 
 againe fubmit to judgement , as alfo what proofes I 
 have made. If in this very place I have added none, 
 cis becaufel had made proofe enough of the felfe 
 fame thing 0 btfore. Where left hec ftiould want and 
 call for proofe againe , l have plainly laid together, 
 fomcof the many Dangerous errours which arc charg- 
 ed upon them. So I tell you which y atleaft, fomeof 
 which they be: and their very naming, will ftiew their 
 danger. And if I did remit you to looke to your own 
 fou les 4 1 hope there was no offence in that, if you doe 
 
53 ? 
 
 *A.C. 
 
 ■p?°° 
 
 §. 
 
 it , and do it To that you have no caufe to doubt. And 
 the reafon why you doubt not. A.C. tels us, is , ' decaufe 
 you hid lionet de^tj e of your eflWtf, or any other mens , nor 
 any thing contrary to Scripture 5 but all moU conformable to 
 Scriptures interpreted by VnimjConfexit of Father s } and Defi- 
 nitions of Connects, Indeed, ii this were true, you had little 
 caufe to doubt in point of your Belief e. But the Truth 
 is, you doc hold' new devifes of your ownc, which the 
 primitive Qhurch was never acquainted with. And § jjiv^ 12 * 
 fomc of thofe fo farre from being conformable > as 'CMc.laterw- 
 that they are little leflc then contradictory to Scripture, confian 
 In which particulars, and divers others, the Scriptures Setf.f. 
 are not interpreted by ' 
 
 Fnion, or Confent of Fa- J ^efm%e X non folum Regno friv at ur,fed& 
 
 * J J fiht ejus a Rjgnt fttccefstone pel/untur, Simanca C Athol . 
 
 therSy Or Definitions of Jnjfit.tit 9 . § . 2 <j 9 . Abfoluti funt Snbditi a Debit o fidtr* 
 Cornels , unleflc perhaps l !lf‘ '• E ‘ c f ? ciH ? <*?• §- 7 1 ft w? f 
 
 . r 5 J 1 ltiny avowed not long lince by 1 hat no man 
 
 by lome late Connects y 
 
 packed of purpole to 
 
 doc that ill fervice. I 
 
 have given inftances 
 
 enough * before > yet 
 
 fome you (hall have 
 
 h _.._ rie give him an Author of note, and very Learned . that 
 
 ^ 5 7 y ipeakes it out. Rex dcbetoccidi,/ folicitet popultnn colere 
 
 Sgaine ; that I afnrme Jdola,vel deferere Legem Dei. Toftax; in 2 Sum, c.n q ij. 
 
 without proofe or In- And he mate bold with Scripture to prove it. 
 
 „ r And Emmanuel Sa m Ins Aphorilmes. Verbo Tyr annus 
 
 ltancc. » I pray then yet he is lo moderate , that he would not have this none, 
 whof “ devife was ^tran- till he be Sentenc'd: but then fpuifqttis potejf fieri Exec »- 
 
 fubflantiation ? And 
 whofe Communion under 
 one kinde ? f And whofe 
 Depofition and Vnthron 
 ingyiay killing of Princes , 
 
 Sc the like^if they were 
 
 cbuld thew any one %j?mane Catboltk? of note and learn- 
 ing, that affirmed it lawfull to kill Kings upon any pre- 
 text whatlocver. Now Jurely he that layes ( as R^omttmfis 
 doe ) that*cis lawfull to Depole a King , layes upon the 
 matter *tis lawfull to kill him. For K ings dob not ufe to 
 be long- lived after their Def option : And they leLpme 
 if ay till griefe breakc their hearts. They have zsfjfafsi&ate^ 
 ready t© make ihorter worke. But fince he is lo confident^ 
 
 tor. Marian* is farre worle. For hr l; ayes it is lawfull to 
 kill h\m,poflcjuam apaucis Seditions, fed doClis c&perit Tj- 
 r annus Appel lari. L.l de Rege. & Reg, luftit sit tone. c.6. 
 Yea but Mariana was difclaimed for this by the Jefuites ; 
 Yea but for all tliat, there was an ^Apology printed in 
 Italy'. An. 1 &io. per ml (fu Superiorum . And there ’tisfaid, 
 Thsy were all Enemies of the Holy name of Icfnsy that 
 condemned Mariana for any fuch Do&rine. As for Toft a - 
 tus no Sentence hath touched upon him at ali for it. 
 
 not yours. For I date 
 lay, and amablctoproove, there's none of thefebut 
 
 Xx% are 
 
34.0 
 
 S.;8. 
 
 arc rather contrary then conformable to Scripture . 
 * n •, m • i: Neither is /iC.or any le/wite able to 
 
 Corpus Chrtjft vcraciter ejfe m Eh- _ / 7 
 
 cbarijiiaex EvangelU babemns : C<?»- 
 vcrfionem vero Earns in Corpus Chri/ti 
 Ev angelium non explicavit , fed exprefte 
 Ecclefid acceptmHs • Cajetan /» Thom. 
 3 <jf, 7*. i. 
 
 t DeT ranfubftantiatioHe Pams in Cor- 
 pus Chnfti rara eft in antiqttis Seri - 
 ptoribus mentio.M'ph, a Caltro Z. 8. 
 verftHar. Verbs Indulgentia. 
 
 N U M. II. 
 
 p tJO 
 
 fhew any * Scripture interpreted by 
 ^ i tfio/2 or Ko?ifent of Fathers of the Pri- 
 mitive Churchy to proove any one of 
 thele : Nor any Definition of ^An- 
 cient Connects, but only *Lattran for 
 Tranfubjlantiatiotiyand that of b Con- 
 fiance for the Euch arifi in one kinde . 
 which two arc moderneatlcaft , farre downward 
 b C«ne. C onftan. from the Primitive Church , and have done more mif- 
 Se f 1 S' chiefe to the Church, by thofe their Determinations, 
 then will be cured I feare in many Generations . So 
 whatever A . C. thinks, yet I hadreafon enough to 
 leave the Iefuite to looke to his owne foulc. 
 
 But A. Q having as it feemes little new matter , 
 is at the fame againe, and over and oVer it muft goe. 
 That there is hut one faving faith : Thai this one Faith leas 
 once tbePpmane . And that I granted,one might bee JaVed 
 in the Ppmane Faith . To all which I have aboun- 
 r §. 3$. n. i.& dantly anfwered c before : Marry then hce infer res i 
 io. That hee fees not how we canhaVe our foules faVedyWithout 
 The entirely hold this faith , being the Catholike faith, Thkicl? 
 S. Athanafius faith , unlefje a man hold entirely he cannot be 
 faved. Now here againe is more in the (fonclufion then 
 in the premifes , and fo the Inference Cades. For fay 
 there was a time in which the Catholike and the Pp- 
 mane Faith were one,andfuch a time there was, when 
 the Ppmam faith Thas (fatholtke and famous through the 
 . Thorld.Ppm. i. Yet it doth not folio w,fince the d Coun- 
 ^niupfu fnpcr ct ^ °f Trent hath added a new Creed, that this Ppmane 
 for*i*iurawenU faith is no w the Catholike. For it hath added extranea , 
 Zd^mCmeil things without the Foundation , difputable, if not 
 Trident, falfe Conclufions to the faith. So that now a man 
 may Believe the whole and entire (fatloliae Faith , 
 
 even 
 
 Kom.t.8. 
 
 d 
 
even as S. L Atbanafm requires, and yet juftly refufe 
 for droife a great part ofthat which 
 is now a the Romans Faith. And 
 Jthanafm himlelfe, as if he meant 
 to arme the Qatholike Faith agamft 
 all corrupting additions,hath in the 
 beginning of his b Creed , thefe 
 words, This is the Catbolike Faith , 
 
 This and no other : This and no 
 
 3 And this is fo much the mot e Remarka- 
 ble, if it be true which Thorns hath. 
 S. Atbanafwm non compojutjfe banc 'Met - 
 nifcflationem h idet, permodum Svmbolij 
 Jed per modum Do£t rinse, c, Et deinde 
 -Authoritate fummi Pontificis rcceptam 
 ejfe 3 ut quafi Regula fdeibabeaiur. ‘ \ ho. 
 2.2£.qA, A.io. ad^ , Symbolo Apoftolo~ 
 rum addita [urn duo aha, Jcilicet Symbo- 
 lum Nicaenum, & S. Achanafii, admajo- 
 
 Other, then here followcs. And F Sf t Ex P lanat ^ onem - Bid. in 3 
 
 s , r \ • r / ^ eHt ‘ q.Mica. A.i.T). 
 
 againe at the end of his treed , bj. Athamf.**#^. 
 
 £ And yet the CounceU of Trent having 
 added twelve new Articles, fayes thus of 
 them alio. H<ec ejl vera Catholic a Eides^ 
 extra quam nemo falvus effe potejl, &'c. 
 
 'D..11 * 'V:: . r. r. • r 1 
 
 c This is the Catbolike Faith 3 This 
 and no more then is here deli- 
 vered f alwaies prefuppofing the 
 
 <?*> , » a<t *• > r 
 
 and this is the large ft of all Creeds. d Integra™ Fidei Vemau , tjtts DoBri" 
 So that if ^A. C. would wipe his ^ n0 ‘ 2 - 2 € *F 1 
 
 eyes from the mift which rifes 
 about Tyber , he might fee how our foulcs may be la- 
 ved, believing the Catbolike Faith, and that entire, with - 
 outthe Addition of Romane Leaven. But if he cannot, 
 or.I doubt, will not fee it, 'tis enough that by God’s 
 Grace wee lee it. And therefore once more I leave 
 
 J • V \ W «, 
 
 him and his, to looke to their owne foules. 
 
 After this A. C. is bufie in unfolding the meaning Num. x 2 0 
 of this great Father ol the Chuxch, 5 . ^Atbanafiu*. And A.Cf.ji. 
 hetelsus, That he fayes in his Creed y that without doubt 
 every man fhaR perifh , that holds not the Catbolike Faith 
 entire ( that ff, faith A. C. in every point of it ) and inVU 
 ohte (that is , in the right fenfe , and for the true f ormaU 
 reaConof divine %ev elation > f efficiently applied to ourun - 
 derUanding by the Infallible Authority of the Catbolike 
 Church prupofrg to us by her ‘Taftours this Revelation. 
 
 Well, we lhail not differ much from *A. C. in expoun- 
 ding the meaning of S, Athanafw • yet fome few 
 
 Xx 5 
 
54-i S'- 3^ 
 
 things I fhall here obfervc. And firfl , I agree that he 
 which hopes for falvation, mull believe the Q atbolike 
 Faith whole and entire in every point. Next y [ agree, 
 that he muft likewife hold it inviolate, if to believe it 
 in the right fenfe, be to hold it inviolate. But by A. 0 . 
 leave, the Believing of the freed in the right fenfe, is 
 comprehended in the firft branch : The keeping of it 
 toholeand entire Fox no man can properly be laid to be- 
 lieve the Whole Creed , that believes not tbc Whole Senfe ) 
 as well as the Letter of it; and as entirely . But thirdly, 
 for the word inviolate, ’tis indeed ufed by him that 
 tranflated uAthanafiw. But the Fathers owne words 
 are : That he that will be faved muft keepc the Faith 
 VyiYI Now uyms, is the found and entire Faith. 
 
 And it cannot be a found Faith , unlefle the Senfe be 
 as whole and entire as the Letter of the Creed . And 
 is compounded of the privative particle (a) and 
 HG6/4o$, which is, reproach or infamie. So that 
 fignifies the holding of the entire Faith in fuch holi- 
 nefleof life and convention, as is without all infa- 
 my and reproach. That is,as our Englifh renders that 
 Creed exceeding well: Which Faith wlejfe a man do keep 
 * Sie EccieJU yphole and* unde filed, even with fuch a life as AMomva 
 himfelfc fhall not be able to carpe at. So Athanafins 
 vetni Ghjftri*, ( who certainly was pafling able to expreffe himfelfe 
 9 in his owne language) in the beginning of that his 
 Creed requires, That we keepe it entire, without dimi- 
 nution : and undefiled, without blame : And at the 
 cod, that we believe it faithfully , without wavering. 
 But C Inviolate] is themiftaken word of the old Inter- 
 preter , and with no great knowledge made life of by 
 A . Q. And then fourthly , though this be true Dm- 
 nity, that he which hopes for falvation, muft believe 
 the whole Creed # and in the right fenfe too (if he be able 
 to comprehend it) yet I take the true and firtt meaning 
 
of Inviolate C could Athanafms his word 1 {IG)/LL 0 S have 
 flgnified lod not to be the holding of the true fenfe 
 but not to offer 'violence, or a forced fenfe or meaning 
 upon the Creed , which every man doth not, that yc'- 
 believes it not in a true fenie. For not to believe the 
 true fenfe of the Creed , is one thing; But ’tis quite 
 another, to force a wrong fenfe upon it. F fitly , a reafbn 
 would be given aIfo,why A.C.is lb earneff for the 
 whole faith , and bawkes the word which goes with 
 it, which is holy or undefiled. For Atbanafus doth alike 
 exclude from falvation thole which keepe not the Ca - 
 tholike Faith holy, as wellasthefe which keepe it not 
 whole. ] doubt this was tofpare many of his 1 holy t §• 53* Ar ^* 
 Fathers , the Popes, who were as farre as any ( the very 
 le wdert among men without exception) from keeping 
 the fathodke Faith holy. Sixtly y I agree to the next part 
 of his Expofidpn, That a man that will be faved muff 
 believe the wtiole Creed for the true formal! reafon of 
 divine %ev elation. For upon the Truth of God thus 
 revealed by himlelfe, lies the Infallible certainty of the 
 Chriftian Faith. But I do not grant, that this is within 
 theCompafTcof S. Athanafiw his word nor of 
 
 the word Inviolate . But in that refpedt ’tis a meere 
 ftraine of A.C. And then lafly , though the whole 
 Catholike Church be fufficient in applying this to us and 
 our Tleliefe , not our c Underftanding ) which A. f. is at a. c.f 7©; 
 againe,yet lnfaUib'e She is not, in the propolail of this 
 ffevelatiomo us by every of her Taflours Some where- 
 of amongft.you,as well as others, neglect, or forget at 
 leaft to feed fhriTs fheepe , as thrift and his (fhurch 
 hath fed them. 
 
 But now that Jiff. hath taught us fas you fee)the ft u M . 13* 
 meaning of S .Athanafiu^ in the next place he tels us, A.Cf.jo* 
 That if ice did believe any one Article , ice finding the fame 
 formal 1 Reafon in all , and applied f ufficiently by the fame 
 
 meanes 
 
m 
 
 A.* C.p.yO. 
 
 gAoC. p.-jO. 
 
 N u m. 14* 
 A, G.p* Jl» 
 
 S’. 58. 
 
 meanes to all) would eajily belieye ad. Why fin ely we do 
 not believe any one Article onely, but all the Articles of 
 the Chriftian Faith • And we bcl ieve them for the fame 
 fomaliyReafon in all , namely, Becaufe they are repealed 
 from arid by God , and fuffioiently applied in his Word, 
 and by fiyCfe urc hes M migration. But Jo long as they do 
 not belie'W^M this fort (faith A. C.) Looke you ; He 
 tels us wSf^Rot believe all, when we profeffe we 
 do. Is this mkn become as God, that he can better tell 
 what we believe, then we our (elves ? Surely we do 
 believe all, and in that fort too: Though, I believe, 
 were S. Athmafm himfelfe alive againe, and aplaine 
 man flhould come to him , and tell him he believed 
 his Creed in all and every particular • he would admit 
 him for a good Catholike Qhriflian , though he were 
 not able to exprefle to him the firmall rtajon of that 
 his belief . Yea but (faith A. C. ) while they^tnll, as all He - 
 retickes doe , make choice of what they will , and what they 
 will not believe, without relying upon the Infallible Authority 
 of the Catholike Churchy they cannot have that one faying 
 Faith in any one Article . Why, but whatfoever Hereticks 
 doe, we are not fuch, nor do we fo. For they which 
 believe all the Articles( as once againe I tell you,we do) 
 make no choice ; And we do relie upon the Infallible 
 Authority of the Word of God, and the whole Catholike 
 fhurch ; And therefore we both can have, and have 
 that one faying Faith which believes all the Articles 
 entirely, though we cannot believe that any particular 
 Church is infallible. 
 
 And yet againe A. C. will not thus be fatisfied, but 
 on he goes, and adds , That although we belieye the fame 
 truth which other good Catbolikes doe in fome Articles , yet 
 not belieying them for the fame formall reafon of Divine 
 %ey elation fuffciently applied by Infallible Church Autho- 
 rity : isfe. we cannot be f aid to haye one and the fame 
 
 Infallible 
 

 
 $■ ; 8 . 
 
 W 
 
 • •' T ’ » . *■ f 
 
 Infallible and Divine Faith which other good Catbolike Chrt- 
 Jl tans haVe,*toho believe the jirtn Its for this formall D(ea- 
 fon>fuf family made kno'»ne to them, not by their owne fan- 
 cy, nor the fallible Author v mane deductions , but by 
 
 the Infallible Authority oj : rch of God. If C. will 
 
 ftill lay the fame thing, I muliftill give the fame an- 
 fwer. Firfi, he conklfes we believe the lame Truth 
 in font e Articles (I pray markehis phrafe) the lame 
 Truth in fome Articles with other good Catholike Chri- 
 flians : lb farre his pen hath told Truth againft his 
 will: for he doth not (I wot well) intend to call us 
 Catholikes, and yet his pen being truer then himfelfe s 
 hath let it fall, For the word (other) cannot be fo 
 ufed as here it is, but that we, as well as they, mult 
 be good Qatholikes : F or he that fliail lay, the old ( I{q- 
 mans were valiant,as well as other men, fuppolesthe 
 Romans to be valiant men- And he that fliail fay, The 
 r Proteftants believe fome Articlcs, as well as other good 
 Catholikes , mull in propriety of fpeech fuppofe them 
 to b egood Catholikes . Secondly, as we do believe thofe 
 
 fome Articles, (o do we believe them,and all other Arti- 
 cles of Faith, Cox the lame formall rea(bn,and fo applied, 
 asbutjuft*£e/oreI have exprefled. Nor do we believe * i 
 
 any one Article of Faith by our own fancy, or by fallible 
 Authority of humane dedu&ions-but next to the Infalli- 
 ble Authority oCGod’s Word , wc are guided by his Church . 
 
 But then XC.fteps into a Conclufion ^ whither wee mot d.c.p.-j i. 
 follow him : For he lay£s 5 f/Mf the Articles to be bt deVed 
 mufl be f efficiently made known unto us by the Infallible Au- 
 thority of the Church of God, that is, of men Infallibly afiified 
 by the Spirit of God, as all lawfully called ^continued, and con- 
 firmed GenerallCouncels are afiifledhVhcLttht^lvhole Church f §. n.N%. j, 
 of God is infallibly affifted by the Spirit of God, lb that 
 it cannot by any error fall away totally from fhrijl the 
 Foundation make no doubt. For if it could, the gates 
 
 Y y of 
 
 
 Vo 
 
„ v- 
 
 * f , ' 
 
 54<S 
 
 1 , . ’ ' . . V . , }‘. 
 
 of hell had prevailed againfl; it, which, our Saviour a f- 
 fures me, S. Mattb. \ 6 . they fhall never be able to doe. 
 But that all Generali Cornels , be they never fo lawfully 
 called , continued , and confirmed , have Infallible t A fi- 
 nance, I utterly deny. Tis true, that a Generali Coun- 
 cell de pottfafto, after ’tis ended ,and admitted by the 
 whole Church, is then Infallible , for it cannot erre in 
 that which it hath already clcarely and truly determi- 
 ned without Errour. But that a Generali Councell d 
 parte ante , when it firft fits down and continues to de- 
 liberate, may truly be faid to be Infallible in all its after - 
 determinations , whatfoever they fhall be, I utterly de- 
 ny. And it may be it was not without cunning that 
 ACfhuffled thefe words together, Called, Continued 
 Confirmed • for be it never fo lawfully called, and continu- 
 ed , it may erre. But after ’tis confirmed, that is, admit- 
 ted by the whole Church, then being found true, it is 
 a\[olnfallible y that is, it deceives no man. For foal! 
 T ruth is , and is to us, when ’tis once knowne to be 
 Truth . But then many times that Truth , which being 
 known isnecejfary and Infallible , was before both con- 
 tingent and fallible in the way of proving it, and to us. 
 And fo here, a Qenerall Counctll is a moll probable, but 
 yet a fallible way of inducing Truth, though the Truth 
 once induced may be ( after 'tis found) necefiary and 
 Infallible . And fo likewife the very Councell it feife for 
 that particular in which it hath concluded Truth. But 
 J.C. mull both fpe^ke and meanc of a Councell fee 
 downe to deliberate, or els he (ayes nothing. 
 
 N u m . i j ; Now hence AC. gathers, That though every thing de- 
 ^c. P . 71. fi nec i t 0 y e a Dfyine Truth in Generali Qouncels is not abfo- 
 lately necefiary to be exprefly knowne and affiually be- 
 lieved (at fome other Truths are ) by all forts : yet no man 
 may ( after knowledge that they are thus defined ) doubt 
 deliberately , much lefie obfiinately deny the Truth of 
 
 ' any 
 
 1 * 
 
«.j8. 
 
 3+7 
 
 anything fo defined. Well, in this Colle&ion o ?A.C, 
 
 Firfi we have this granted y That every thing defined 
 in Generali Councels is not abfolucely neceflary to be 
 exprcfly knowne, and adually believed by all forts of 
 men. And this no Proteflant, that I know, denies. 
 
 Secondly y it is affirmed, that after knowledge, that thefe 
 Truths are thus defined, no man may doubt deliberately , 
 much hdcobfiinatelydeny any of them. Truly, Obfii - 
 nately ( as the word is nowin common ufe) carries 
 a fault along with it : And it ought to be farre from 
 the temper of a Chriftian, to be obflinate againft the 
 Definitions of a Generali Councello But that he may 
 not upon Very probable grounds, in an humble and 
 peaceable manner deliberately doubt , yea and upon 
 Demonstrative grounds confiantly deny even finch “Defi- 
 nitions , yet fubmitting nimfelfeand his grounds to 
 the Church in that or another Councell } is that 
 which was never till now impoftd uppn Believers. 
 
 For tis one thing for a man deliberately to doubt , and mo - 
 deftly to propofehu Doubt for fatisfadion, which was 
 ever lawfull,and is many times neceflary. And quite 
 anotherthingfora man upon the pride of his ownc 
 Iudgement, * to refufe externall Obedience to the Councell , * §.32.2^; j 
 which to doe, was never Lawfull, nor can ever ftand 
 with any Government. For there is all the reafon in 
 the world, the CounceU fhould be heard for it felfe , as 
 well as any fuch % ecufant whatfoever^and that before 
 sludge as good as it ftlfe at leaft. And to what end fs.Aug.z.a.^ 
 did t S. Jfugufiine lay. That one Generali CounceU might *B*pt.co»t. Do- 
 le amended by another , the formerly the Later, if men 
 might neither denie, norfo much as deliberately doubt prior* ipofteri - 
 of any of theft Truths defined in a Generali CounceU ? 
 
 And A . C. fhould have done well to have named but 
 one ancient Father of the Primitive Church , that ever 
 affirmed this. *FoKhc Affiftance which God gives iS.*i. 2 V* 5 * 
 
 Yy % to 
 

 
 £.38. 
 
 to thctohole Church in general!, is but in things [imply 
 neceftary to eternall Salvation • therefore more then 
 this cannot be given to a Generali Councell , no nor Co 
 much. But then if a Generali Councell flhall forget 
 itfelfc, and take upon it to define things not abjolutely 
 necejfary to hee expre[y known?, or actually believed 
 {which are the things which A . C. here fpeakes of ) 
 In theft as neither Generali Councell y nor the v?bole Church 
 have infallible Affi fiance : fo have Cbriflians liberty 
 modeftly and peaceably, and upon juft grounds, both 
 
 a I know the Creekes fubfenbed that deliberately to doubt , and con- 
 c on iic ell. Sedin nio Conalio gr*c* Sc - ftantly to deny (uch the Councels J)e- 
 
 J* tertid,c,g t nu.l^.Et in ultima Sefsionc finittOHS . For inftance, the CoUUCcll 
 iftim Concilii Gr&ddixerunt (e fine Au- of Florence firft defined Purgatory 
 
 ftionem aliamtraSlare non pojfe, prater vl- ^ ^ believed as a VlVlUC 1 tilth , 
 Umde procefstonc Sp.Santti.Popa vere, and matter of Faith { a if that CquII- 
 
 «* “ <** T“* h ‘v° ,<“» 
 
 Nicoimum. To.+.p. 894, ere. This fa- it.) This was afterwards delibe- 
 rately doubted of by the Proteftants ; 
 after this as conftantly denied, then 
 confirmed by the b Councell of Trent , 
 and an Anathema ftt upon the head 
 of every man that denies it. And 
 yet fcarce any Father within the firft three hundred 
 yeares ever thought of it. 
 
 N u m. 16. I know a Pdlar mime affirmes it boldly, That all the 
 
 * Omncsvetereg Fathers , both Greeke and Latine 3 did conftantly teach Pur* 
 
 ibipfo tempore g at0r ) f rm the Very Apoftles times. And where he brings 
 Apojioiorti con . - his Proofs out of the Fathers for this Point, he divides 
 
 Pur^atoHum d- c ^ em i nt0 tw0 Rancks.b In the firft y he reckons them 
 fe. Bel. L.i.de which affirme Prayer for the dead ? as if that muft ne- 
 
 femo nuJ De ceiTaril y inftrre Purgatory. Whereas moftcertaineit 
 1 Bel. Lib 1 ds is, that the Ancients had., and gave other Reafonsof 
 Vur^x. 6 . § . i . (prayer for the dead } then freeing them out of any Pur - 
 gatory. And this is very Learnedly , and atlargefet 
 
 downe,, 
 
 vours of fome arc to bring in the Greeks. 
 Howfoever this (Bowes enough again# 
 BelUrmine, That alltheGreekes did not 
 conftantly teach Purgatory, as he affirms. 
 L.l. de Purgat. c.11. § . Be tertio modo . 
 
 Con. Trid . Seff. 25. & in Build Pi * 4. 
 fuper forma Iuramentl profefsiom s Fidei. 
 

 
 H-P 
 
 downc, by the now Learned a Primate of Armagh. But 4 Jaco.Vrtier.Ar. 
 then in the fecond y he fayes,thcre are b moft manifeft places J f c h f[ 
 
 in the Fathers ? in Tvhich they affirme Purgatory. And hee fitttts Challenge 
 nam^s there no fewer then two and twenty of the Fa - t*r P ‘ ,p4 ‘ 
 
 - _ 1 •» t J \ * Sunt merttf zi- 
 
 thers. A great Jury certainly, did they give their Ver- ma Lcca in p *• 
 
 di6t with him. But within the three hundred yeans tribus gibi afe- 
 after Chrijl, he names none but Tertullian, Cyprian, and 7 m* b dS.i 
 Ongen. And c Tertullian fpeakes exprelly of Helfnot of P^-^.§.De- 
 Purgatory. S. a Cyprian of a Purging to Amendment, ^TmXJcAm. 
 which cannot be after this Life. As for c Origen y he 5 1 c • J 7- internum. 
 think,iildeed was the firjl Founder of Purgatory 5 But of 2 ^Emendar^ 
 fuch an One, as I believe Bellamine dares not affirme, «. 
 
 For hee thought there V?as no Tunijhment after this life 7 but 5 
 
 Purgatory - 3 and that not only the mo ft impious men , but even s.Hiewn. in lo- 
 th e Thvds themf elves fhould be faVed y after they hadfujfered 
 and beene Purged enough. Which is dire&ly contrary to Porronon. 
 the Word of God expounded by his f Church . In the uciv * 
 
 fourth and fifth (the great and Learned Ages of the *s*a uf l.zu 
 Church) he names more , as 8 S. Ambrofe. But S. Am - civ ^d.c.yj. 
 £r<5/efayes. Thatfomefhallbefaved, qua fi per tgnem 5 
 as it were by fire , leaving it as doubtf u!l , what was 
 meant by that F ire*, as the Place it felfe doth, whence h 
 it is taken. 1 ' 1 Cor . $. S. 1 Burma indeed names a furg- 
 inv by Fire • But 3 tis not very plaine, that he meanes it jfi.fne. 
 after this life. And howfoever, this is moll plaine 3 
 That S. Hierome is at Credimus , we believe eternal! Pu- 
 nifhment • but hee goes no farther then Arbitramur y 
 we thinke there is a Purging. So with him it was Ar- 
 bitrary 3 And therefore fure no Matter of Faith then. 
 
 And a£raine k he faith. ^ u a*-fomeChriftian$ maybe 
 fnvcdjposi poena* : h merits lnduted, but cont.Peiag.uitra 
 
 Beneit , a when. SFBafil names medium. ^ 
 
 indeed * wgatory fire ; but he relates as uncertainly, to f a, “* tnI ~ 
 
 that in 1 Cor. 3. as S. Ambro/e doth. As for m Paulinas , m Paulin. Eg. u 
 he fpeakes for Prayer for the dead 5 but hot a word of 
 
 Y y 3 Purgatory 
 
 \ 
 
a Greg. Naz 6 - 
 
 fe LzR.L.j.c.ii 
 
 c S . Hilar./# TJ] 
 ilS .v. So. 
 
 4 Boetius L. 4. 
 
 Prof . 4 , 
 
 f Theo.w I Or 
 1° 
 
 T urgatory . And the Place in S . a Gregory Nazjan^en is 
 farre from a manifeft Place For hee fpeakes there of 
 Baptifme by fire j which is no ufuall phrafe to fignifie 
 Turgatory .But yet fay that here he doth, ther S U nruyoi 
 a for taftis^a per adventure in the words,wbich Bellarmine 
 cunningly leaves out. And if it be a Ter adventure yec 
 (hall then be Baptifed with fire.’why then *tis at a Ter - 
 adventure too* that yec (hall not. Now fuch Cafuall 
 ftuffe as this ,• peradventure you (hall, and per adventure 
 you (hall not, is no Exprcffion for things, which are 
 valued to be de fide , and to be believed as Scatters of 
 Faith . Bellarmine goes on with h LaBantius , but with no 
 better fuccefle. For he fayes indeed , That (bmemcn 
 p erjlringentur igne,(hal\ be (harply touched by fire. But 
 he fpeakes of fuch, quorum peccata prtValuerunt \ whofc 
 fin nes have prevailed. And they in Bellarmine * s Do- 
 ftrine are for He//, not Turgatory.As for S. c Hilary , he 
 will not come home neither. 'Tis true,, he fpeakes of 
 a Fire too, andonethatmuftbeindured, but he tells 
 us, J tis a Punifhment expand# a peccatis anim*, to putge 
 thefoulcfrom finnes. Now ttys will nbtferve BeU 
 hrmine s turne. For they of Tome teach,That the finnes 
 are forgiven here , and that the Temporall Punifh- 
 ment only remaines to be fatisfied in T urgatory . And 
 what need is there then of purging of finnes ? Left 
 there fhould not be Fathers enough , hee reckons in 
 d Boetius too. But he, though not long before a Convert } 
 yet was fo well feene in this Point, that he goes no far- 
 ther then Puto , I thinkc that after death fomc foulcs 
 are exercifcd purgatorid dementia, with a Purgative 
 Clemency. But TutofL think ’tis fo, is no expreflion for 
 Matter of Faith. The two Pregnant Authorities which 
 feemeto come home, arc thofeof Gregory Nyjfme, 
 and Theodor et. But [o&Theodoret in Scholiis Gr#cis (which 
 is the Place Bellarmine quotes ) I can findc no fuch 
 

 ?•> 
 
 
 KctSttf&a 7 Tift 
 
 
 Thing : And manifeil it is, Hddlar * 4 BeJIarmin. x. r de Purgato. c. 4^ Ex 
 
 w «?* him J C J. fe , t00ke “ but U P° n ^Greg! 5 Nyfl: Or*t. d'Morl. 
 trull. And for b S. Gregory Nyffen , soo 6 . Edit, <}>arif. 1615. Tow. 2. 
 
 5 cis true, feme places inhimfeeme 
 
 plaine. But then they arc made fo ’’ 
 
 doubtful! y other Places in him , 
 that I da - not fay fimply and r ndly,what his Judg- 
 ment was.For he fayes, Men ?nuji be purged from Per- 
 turbations^ and eit her by Prayers ^and Philosophy , or the Jl ti- 
 dy of Wifdome , or by the furnace of Purgatpry-jire after this 
 life. And againe, That a mm cannot be partaker Juor^ros 
 of the Divine nature , unlefje the Purging fire doth take aVoay 
 the Jiaines that are in his Soule ~ And again cjTbat after this 
 Hfe a Purgatory fire takes ate ay the blots and propenjity to 
 evill. And I deny not, diverfe other like places are in 
 him. Bu r fir fly this is quite another thing from the po- 
 mane P gatory. For S. Gregory tcls us here, that the Pur- 
 gatory meanes, purges Perturbations, andfiaines } and 
 
 blots , and propenjity to evill . Whereas the Purgatory 
 
 which Apme now teaches, purges c Item definimuslfi vere pccnitenhs in T>H 
 not Jinne c but is only [atisfaUory by way chariutc dec e Jferm, anteejuam digHis pCe- 
 
 of puni Ament for fins already forgiven 
 
 J l J r • r n- 7 y o 5 Jis fAtisfecertnt , poems PurgAtorns pofi 
 
 but for which f satisfaction V>aS not made mortem purgari. Concil. FJoren. circa, 
 
 before their Death. Secondly J S .Gregory p™yerTm,Edtt.Co!ona 6 i%. 
 TSiyfJendiimhdi feems not obfeurely to relate to fomc 
 other Fire d . For he fayes exprefly^ That the fouleistobee d £ Greg.Nyflf. 
 punifbedfill the c Vitiofity of it be confnmed fPur gator io igne 5 7 
 So the Tranfiation renders it 1 but in the Originall it is pJ 5%- 
 ru dxouMTw m pi, that is, in a fire that fleeps not,which, 
 for ought appeares,may beeunderflood of a Fire that 
 is eter tall ; whereas the fire afligned to Purgatory (hall 
 ceafe Befide^ S. Gregory fayes plainly : The Soule can- 
 not fuffer by fire but in the Body ; and the T hdy can- 
 not be with it, till the PgfurreHion. Therefore e hee c s.Gvtg.Orat. 
 mull needs fpeak of a fire after the Refurreblion i which 
 
 muft 
 

 
 s-$- 
 
 muft bcc either the Fire of the Generali Conflagration, 
 or HellJPurgatory he cannot mean;-. Where, accord- 
 ing to the j{omtjh Tenet , the Souk fuffers without the 
 Body. The truth is •. Divers of the Ancient, cfpecially 
 Greekes , which were a little too much acquainted 
 t ihfbh&l'Jti Vktds Schoole, t philofophizcd,and diiputed upon 
 
 Vs.&c. Ong.l' this, and fotne other Points with much Obfcuruy, 
 6 ctnt.Ce//um. an q as little Certainty. So upon the whole matter, in 
 the fourth and fift hundred yeare, you fee here’s none 
 that con Handy and perfpicuoufly affirme it And as 
 
 ■ Cou/lut Ammasfurgari po(i hunt -vi. f ° r S ' ^‘guftine he a /aid, and b Ml- 
 tam.s. Atiguftin. Lib.ziXiv.Dei.c.i^. faid ic , and c at the lalt left it doubt* 
 
 n . .. . a fuL which had ic then been receiv- 
 
 b fuftorum flagella non mcipmnl post mor - J * . r r * i \ j n. 
 
 tem, fed deftnunt. Et lAnimamoxin P a- ed SS QTOtttt 01 raith ) lie dlirit not 
 
 have done. Indeed then in S. Gre- 
 gory the Greats time, in the begin- 
 ning of the fixt Ag cfPurgatory was 
 grownc to fomc pcrfc&ion. For 
 S. d Gregory himfelf is at Scio ( ’twas 
 but at Puto a little before ) lknow 
 that fomc ftiall bee Expiated in 
 Purgatory flames. And therefore I 
 ’ . will eafily give Bellarmine all that 
 follow. For after this time Purgatory was found too 
 warmc a bufineffe to be fuffered to Code again. And 
 in the after Ages^more were frighted^then led by proof 
 into the Beliefc of ic. 
 
 NuM.17. Now by this we fee alfo , That it could not be a 
 
 SuedVniverp, tenet Etc lefit .me Conci- Tradition ; For then WC might haVC 
 
 * ' ~ " traced it by thefmoke to the Apo- 
 
 ftles times. Indeed Pellarm. would 
 have it fuch a Tradition. Forhec 
 tels us out of S. e Au^uttine , That 
 that is rightly believed to be delivered by 
 ApoHolicaU Authority 3 which the "Whole Church holds } and 
 
 hath 
 
 radifum &c. S. Aug. Contr.Eoeitciannm. 
 c. 15. Et dm tantnm loca effe. & c. S. Aug. 
 Scr. 19. aeverb.Apoft.c. 15. Et L. 21. de 
 CtVu Dei. c. 1 6 .fine 3 Negatjiifi fit Ignis il- 
 le in Cenfummationc fecnli. 
 c p°te(l &c. S. Aug, in Enchirid. 
 c. 69, Eorfitanvertimcjf&c.S . Aug. 
 L,2\.de Civ. Deic. 26. *j£uidS. Paulus 
 fenferit 1 Cor. 3 . de Igne illo jnako intelli- 
 gent tore dottiores audire.S.^ug.L.de 
 
 Fide & Oper.c. 1 6. 
 
 A S. Greg. in Pfal.^.P otnitentialcm print 
 
 liis inftitntam , fed fetnper retent urn eft , 
 nonnift Attthoritate Apoftclica tradition 
 reUifsime creditor S. Aug.Z. 4. de B apt. 
 cent. c Donatift. c . 24 Nec ad Snmmot 
 Pcntifces referri peteft. Addit Melch. Ca- 
 llus L.flde Locis c. 4. prin. 
 
'on tnvem 
 
 bath ever held , and yet is not Instituted by any CouncelL 
 And hee addcs , That Purgatory is fuch a Tradition , fa 
 Conftantly held in the whole Church, Greek e, and 
 Lathe . And t that V?ee doe not finde any beginning of this -j. 
 
 (Belie ft. Where I fhall take the boldneflc to Qbferve mus initium hn- 
 thek three thing’s. Fir ft _ that the Dodtrine of Turf a- JUS d( t W(tns ^ ed 
 
 . O J 5 f * omnes zetercs 
 
 tory was not held ever in the whole Catholike Church of Graci & Latini, 
 Chriff. And this appeares by the proofes of * Bellar - ^ £j^ eIlar 'f § * 
 mine himfelfe produced, and I have t before examined. De rerao modr- 
 For there Tis manifeft , that fcarce two Fathers dire&ly * L • *• de pHr g- 
 affirme the beliefe of Purgatory for full fix hundred j 
 yeares after ChriA. Therefore Purgatory is no Matter 
 of Faith, nor to be believed as defeending from ApoSlo- 
 licM Authority by S. Auguflines Rule. Secondly , that we 
 can finde a beginning of this Dodirine , and a Beginner 
 too, namely Origen. And neither Btllarmine , nor any 
 other is able to fbcw any one Father of the Church that 
 faid it before him. Therefore Purgatory is not to bee 
 believed as a Doctrine delivered by Apoftclicall Autho- 
 rity by Bellarmines owne rule ; For it hath a Beginning . 
 
 Thirdly, I obferve too, that BelUrmine cannot well ted 
 where to lay the foundation of Purgatory , that it may 
 be fafe* For firft , hee labours to found it upon Scri- 
 pture. To that end %hee brings no fewer then ten pla- a BelLr. 4 1, di 
 ces out of the Old Testament , and nine out of the New, 
 to proove it. And yet fearing left thefe places bee 
 ffrained ( as indeed they are ) and fo too weake to bee 
 laid under fuch a vafl pile of Building, as Purgatory is, 
 b he flies to unwritten Tradition. And by this Word of God 
 unSPrittemhe /ayes ’ tis manifest , that the Voflrine of Pur - per/ pu mm eft. 
 gatory V?as delivered by the ApofUes Sure if Kineteene pla- pf’ t ' c f 
 
 ces of Scripture cannot proove itj would be loth to fly Temd ex veibo 
 to Tradition. And if Recourfe to Tradition bee ne- Dc 
 
 r, 1 . ! 1 r I ro- Vi ter uomodo.<kc,, 
 
 ceflarv, then certainly thole places of Scripture made 
 not the prgefe they were brought for. And once 
 
 Z 7 more 
 
 Pftr£M.c.$ ct.a 
 
 ^ Deter tio mod? 
 
I 
 
 m 
 
 §. ?8 
 
 more how can Bellarmine fay here , That wee finde 
 not the S eginningfiujus degmatts , of this Article 5 when 
 hee had laid before, that hec had found it in 2 ^ine- 
 teene places of Scripture . For if in thefe places hee 
 could not finde the beginning of the Dodrine of 
 Turgatory , hee is falfe while hefayes he did : And 
 if hee did finde it there, then hee is falfe here in faying , 
 we finde no beginning of it. And for all his Brags 
 
 •Omnes vctcr.s Gr*d & Utmi &C. of 1 Omts Vi Hern, all the Ancient , 
 Bellarm.L. 1. de Purga.e. n. §. Dc Greeke and Latine doe conUantly teach 
 
 "®°Pu°rglrio h Script*, furgatory. Yet o Caflro 
 
 ribus petifsinum Grtas fere null* men- dealcs honeltly and plainly,and tels 
 
 tto eft. Qua de canfa uffue in bodiernum u $ ^ mm f ton Q f PurgatOI V 
 
 turn Alphon.a Caftro .L. 8. adverf. H*- in Ancient Writers is fere nulla fomojt 
 ref.Vcrboln&jXtfmz. nQne a t all } ef pecially in the Greeks. And 
 
 he addes, That hereupon Purgatory is not believed by the 
 Grecians to this Very day. And what now, I pray, after 
 all this , may I not fo much as deliberately doubt of 
 this , bccaufc 'tis now Defined ? and but now in a 
 
 manner ? and thus ? No fure. So 
 A. C. tels you. Doubt? No. For 
 when you had fooled the Arcb-fti- 
 [hop of Spalato back to (Rome, there 
 
 finit*,commem*ravi, fitnt omnes Articuli y OU c i c l lcr made him fay, Or laid it 
 
 Xsv'Uthm , jilam prior a dc Trinity, for him c (for in Print it is, and un- 
 ibid.p. j*. And fo much A. c. himfelfe der his Name. ) That fince ’tis now 
 
 Do 4 ilollfcTaUhProttftat« I d,ff« defined by the Church , a man is as 
 from them, in bus Relation of the firft much bound to belie vc there is a 
 Conference. f. a8» Purgatory , as that there is a Trinity 
 
 ofPerfons in the Godhead. How farre comes this Ihort 
 ofBlafphcmy, to make the Trinity , and Purgatory 
 things alike,and equally Credible ? 
 
 Yea^ut^.^. will give you a Reafon, why no man 
 may deliberately doubt , much lefle deny any thing that 
 is defined by a Generali Councell. And his Reafbn is, 
 
 Decaufe 
 
 c Purgatorium nullum effe, eft m*nifeft * 
 Harefis.&c. M. Anton, de Dbminis fo 
 %ecUtus ex lAnglia couftlium exponit , 
 Parif.1623.^. 17. Merita, Indulgence, 
 Cfr rctiqunflHA fttperius ut in Eccleft * de* 
 
 Nhm 18. 
 %/f.C.p 71. 
 
w 
 
 $.; 8 . 
 
 3*5 
 
 
 r Becauf \ every f uch doubt and den) all is a breach from the one 
 Javing faith. 1 his is a very good reafon, if it bee true. 
 
 But how appeares it to be true?Ho w?why it takes aVoay 
 (faith Infallible credit from the Church, and fo the Di- ^ C p 71 
 
 wine Revelation being not fufficiently apply ed . it cannot ac- 
 cording to the ordinary courje of Gods providence breed In- 
 fallible Bclicfe in us. VVhy but dc liber ately to doubt and 
 constantly to deny upon the grounds and in the manner 
 *aforcfaid, doth not take away Infallible credit 
 from the 'tobole Church , but onely from the De- 
 finition of a Generali Councell feme way or other 
 milled, And that in things not abfoluteJy Neceffa- 
 ry to all mens falvation , For of fuch things t A. C. f Though every 
 here fpeakes exprefly. Now to takeaway Infallible Th ' n § 
 credit from feme Definitions of Generali Councels , irutinn Gene! 
 in things not ablolutcly ncceifl&ry to falvation, is no rail Counceis Is 
 
 breach upon the one faving faith which is neceffary, necef%°to b!e 
 nor upon the Credit of the (fatholike Church of Chrift expreily known, 
 in things abfolutdy necefiary, for which onely it had j/evea^ U by « y ^ail 
 Infallible AfsiSlance promifed. So that no breach being fores .&c*A,Ci 
 made upon the faith, nor no credit which ever it had P- 7 1 ' 
 being taken from the Church , the Divine Revelation 
 may bee, and is as fufficiently applyed as ever it 
 was ; and in the ordinary couric of Gods pro- 
 vidence may breed as Infallible bcliefe in things ne- 
 ceffiary to falvation, as ever it did. 
 
 But A. C. will prooVc his Reafon before gi- Num.t^; 
 yen, and therefore hee askes us out of Saint Paul ^Cy.yu 
 Rom. 10. How fhall men believe unit ffe they beare l HoV? 
 fhall they heare without a Preacher ? And hoVo frail they 
 preach ( to wit Infallibly ) unlejfe they bee fent , that is , 
 jwm God ,and infallibly af sifted by his Spirit ? Here’s that 
 which I have twife at leafi fpoken to already, namely, 
 
 That A. C. by this will make every Triett in the Church 
 of Rome that hath Learning enough to preach , and 
 
 Zu diffents 
 
 Rom. 1 0. 14.15a 
 
 < 
 
* Aim ( ab Authoribus C^oniu Sen - diflents nor. from that Churchy an 
 
 pturx) italeoo^ut quant alibet fknttitate T r nn i L- f r .1 f 
 
 deffrina'f] pr&polleant non ideo veru putc , Infallible lYi dchtr, whlCll HO rUtho of 
 
 ej uoa ipfi it a /enferunt ,veifcripferut .l\\o. xhe Primitive Church did ever ai- 
 
 p\ep i.A.S.ad. 2 .ExS^AugEp.i 9 .Mihi r • L: m f e 1f e nor t k e Church 
 
 non credasjiifiDemonftrationem accipias lumc C0 nimiCirC , nor CDC UWrCI) 
 
 ex facr is Liter is . S,Cy ril,Hisr olol. Car. give him. And yet the Fathers 
 1 . , of the Primitive Church were fen r, 
 
 ■f Verba h<tc <tApoJtoh non pofiunt Intel- J 
 
 lipibc Fide mfufa , uu emm immediate a and from God , were allured, and 
 
 l Dco creata eft , & non eH ex Audit nut by Q Q( J and did fufficiently pro- 
 
 fent. D. 2 % q. i.tsA. ‘l.Concluf. I. Ergo pole tO men *thc DlVine ^fV tlatU 
 Tides acquifita necejfaria eft. ibid, fedpra- on and did by it beget and breed 
 
 C) non folum propter IntentionemAcfus, Up Faith , faying Faith in the 
 fedetiam propter Aflenfum dr Certitadi- Soules of men: Thoilgh , * no 
 
 '^■Sr iam T efi t-Zl‘Si e S one among them fince the Abo- 
 
 fus A Fide acquinta. fhaa per earn nnl- D . * 
 
 in $ credit die id , nift quern /tit pofcf alii files , was an Infallible Treacher J 
 
 <S fallen, licet credat cum non V e lief a f ^ nc J ^ fhould ha VC done Very 
 lore, Scotus w 7, » fent. D . 2 $. q.umca. ^ . / 
 
 Therefore in the judgement of your owne Well Here tO liaVC made It mani- 
 
 feft , That this Scripture , Hem 
 (hall they preach ( to wit Infallibly ) 
 is fo interpreted by ‘Union, Con - 
 fent of Fathers , and Definitions of 
 Councels. as hee a bragged before , 
 that they ufe to interpret Scri- 
 pture, For I doe not findeHo^ 
 fiall they Preach ( to wit t Infalli- 
 bly ) to bee the f omment of any 
 „ one of the Fathers ; or any other 
 
 Humana Veritas.Ibid. $ (_>ui oc tercium. » a 1 aii 1 - 
 
 Therefore furely A. C. abnfes this place approved tAlithov • And let him 
 of the Apoflle very boldly. fhewit,if he Can. 
 
 Nim. 2rO. 
 
 A. C. p.ju 
 
 Schoole, your Preachers can both deceive 
 and be deceived . And therefore certainly 
 are not JnfallibU - And M. Canus very 
 exprefly makes this but an Jntroduttion 
 to Infallible faith. Primum ergo id ft at no 
 juxta Commmem 'Legem aliqua exteei* 
 ora & human a incit amenta necejjaria ef- 
 fe y quibtts ad Evangelif fidem indue amttr. 
 Quomodo enim credent ei } quern non an- 
 dierunt.&c. Canus L.'s.y.dc Loots, c. 8-§ . 
 Primum ergo. Et iterum. Si Tides intu- 
 la it a Fidei acqiuiiue nitcretur , tan- 
 quamfuo Fundament 0 ; ipfum funda- 
 ment um Fidei noflr a non ejfet Divina fed 
 Humana Veritas.Ibid. § C.ui Sc tercium. 
 Therefore furely A, C. abnfes this place 
 
 After this (for I fee the good man is troubled,and 
 forward and backward he goes) hcfals immediately 
 upon this Queftion • If a ^ hole gene rail Counctll defining 
 what is DiVme Truth , be not believed to be fent and afsifled 
 ly Gcds Spirit , and confequently of Infallible Credit , what 
 man c in the World can bee faid to bee of Infallible Credit ? 
 Well , firfl: A. C. hath very ill lucke in fitting his 
 
 Condufion 
 
Conclttjion to his ‘ Vrtmifes , and his Qmfequent to his 
 Antecedent • And fo tis here with him. fora Generali 
 Ccuncell may beafiiftedbyGod’s Spirit, and in a great 
 mealure too, and in a greater then any private man not 
 infpired, and yet not confequendy be of Infallible Qredit . 
 for allaffiftance of God's Spirit reaches not up to In- 
 fallibility. I hope the Ancient Si /hops and Fathers of 
 the f Primitive Church were afsifted by God’s Spirit^ and 
 in a plentiful! meafure too, and yet A. C himfelfe will 
 not fay they were Infallible • And fecondly , for the 
 Queflion it ielfe , If a Generali Councellbe ?iot,Wbat man 
 in the World can be fit A to be of Infallible Credit l Truly 
 Tie make you a ready Anlvver, F{o mail- Not the Tope 
 himlelfe ? No : Let God and his Word be true, and every 
 man a Iyer, T(om^; for fo, more or Icffe, every man will Rom: 34. 
 be found to be. And this is neither dammage to the 
 Churchy nor wrong to the perfon of any. 
 
 But then AT. asks a fhrewder Queftion then this. N u M . 2 r.' 
 If fuch a Councell lawfully called, continued and confirmed , P-T 1 - 
 
 may erre in defining any one Devine Truth , low can we be 
 Infallibly cert aine of any other Truth defined by it? For if §ao. iv.15. 
 it may erre in one , why notin another, and another , and fo 
 in all} ’Tis moft true, if fuch a Councell may erre 
 In one, it may in another, and another, and fo in all of 
 like nature : 1 lay in all of like nature. And A.C. may A.cpyf ' 
 remember he expreffed himfelfe a little before, to 
 fpeakeef the Defining of fuch Divine Truths as are not 
 abfohitely neceffary to be exprefly knowne and a Hu ally belie* 
 
 Ved of all forts of men . Now there is, there can be no 
 necefsityof an Infallible certainty in the whole Catholike 
 Church , and much Ielfe in a Generali Councell , of things 
 not* abfolutely neceffary in themfelves. For drift did *§.21.2^; 
 not intend to leave an Infallible certainty in his Church 
 to fatisfie either Contentious, or Curious , or Trefumptu - 
 ous Spirits* And therefore in things not Fundamentally 
 
 Z z 3 not 
 
N2 
 
 35S 
 
 I 
 
 U M. 22. 
 C.p. 72. 
 
 S'? 8 ' 
 
 not Neceffary , ’tis no matter if (founcels erre in one, and 
 another, and a third, the Vphole Church having power 
 and meanes enough to fee that no Councell erre in 
 TYecejfary things, and this is certainty enough for the 
 Church to have, or for (fhriftians to expert * efpecially 
 fincc the Foundation is fo flrongly and fo plainely laid 
 downe in Scripture and the Greedy that a modeftman 
 might juftly wonder why any man fliould run to any 
 later (founccll y at leaft for any Infallible certainty. 
 
 Yet A. Q hath more Queftions toaskej and his 
 next is y How vs>e can ( according to the ordinary Qourfe ) be 
 Infallibly ajfured that it eyres in one y and not in another 9 
 Tbhen it equally by one and the fame Authority defines both 
 to be Divine Truth ? A . C. taking here upon him to 
 defend M .Fifber the Jefuite could not but fee what 1 
 had formerly written concerning this difficult QueftT 
 on about Generali Councils . And to all that (being 
 large ) he replied little or nothing. Now when he ' 
 thinks that may be forgotten, or as if it did not at all 
 lie in his way, he here turnes Qufftionifl , to difturbe 
 thatbufineffe, and indeed the Church, as much as he 
 cam But to this Queftion alfo 1 anfwer againe, If 
 any Cjenerali CounceU doe now erre, either it erres in 
 things abfolutely necefiary to Salvational in things not ne- 
 cefiary. If it erre in things Neceffary , we can be infalli- 
 bly a ffu red by the Scripture , the Creeds y th t four e first 
 Connceh\ and th z whole Church, where it erres in one, 
 and not in another. If it be in non neceffariis , in things 
 not neceffary, ’tis not requifite that we fhould have 
 for them an infallible affurance. As for fhat which 
 followes, it is notorioufly both cunning, and falfe. ’Tis 
 falfe to fuppofe that a Generali Councell defining two 
 things for Divine Truths, and erring in one, but not 
 erring in another, doth define both equally by one y and 
 the fame Authority . And ’tis cunning , becaufe thefe 
 
 words 
 
' 
 
 * * , ‘ / * * 
 
 • *s* • , 
 
 Authority) arc equivocally and mu ft 
 bcdiftinguifiicd, that the Truth 3 which A. C. would 
 hide, may appearc. Thus thcn > fuppofe a Generali 
 Councell erring in one point, and not in another, it doth 
 define both, and equally by the fame delegated Authority 
 which that Comcell hath received from the Cathoiike 
 Church . But it doth not define both, and much lefle 
 equally, by the fame Authority of the Scripture , (which 
 muft be theCouncels ^ ule , as well as private mens) 
 no nor by the fame Authority of the whole Cathoiike 
 Church (who did not intentionally give themequall 
 power to define Truth , and errour for Truth.) And I 
 hope Q. dares not (ay the Scripture ( according to 
 which all Councels, that will uphold Divine Truth, 
 muft Determine) doth equally give cither ground or 
 power to define Srrour and Truth, 
 
 To his former Qucftions J. C. adds, That if vte . . 2 ? 
 
 leave this to be examined by any private man , this ex ami- A.cp. jT 
 nation not being Infallible, had need to be examined by ano- 
 ther, and this by another without end , or ever corrming to 
 Infallible certainty neceffarily required in that one faith 
 which is necefi ary to falvation, and to that peace and unity 
 which ought to be in the Qhurcb. Will this inculcating ^ 5 ^ 
 the fame thing never be left ? I told the lefuite a before, 3 ?• Confd. 7, 
 that I give no way to any private man to be ludge of a Nn *' 
 Generali Conncell : And there alfo I fhewed the way 
 how an erring Counccll might be rectified , and the 
 peace of the Church either preferved or reftored, with- 
 out lifting any private fpirit above a (founcell , and 
 without thisproceffe in Infinitum (which io 
 
 much urges , and which is lb much declined in all 
 b Sciences .) For as the underftanding of a man muft al- b Arift. 1. Pofi. 
 waies have (bmewbat to reft upon , fo muft his Faith. % £ 
 
 But a c private man, firft forhisowne fatisfa<ftion,and <=§.38. 
 after for the Churches, if he have juft caufc, may 
 
 eonkder 
 
 S. 38, 
 
 words (by the fame 
 
9 
 
 a Hie non loquimur de Decifione J feu Dff* 
 terminations Doblrinali , qua aa mum- 
 quemque v'trum peritum fpeftare dignof- 
 citur‘ y fedde Authoritativd & ludtciali y 
 drc. la. Aimain. L.ds Author, Eccl.c.io. 
 princ. 
 
 confider of, and examine by the 
 a Judgment of dijeretion , though not 
 of power, even the Definitions of 
 a Generali Counceli But jf. C. con- 
 cludes well , T!?at an Infallible cer- 
 tainty knecefjary for that one Faith which is neceffary te 
 fc §. Jobation-. And of that (as l expreffed b before J a mod 
 
 infallible certainty we have already in the Scripture , 
 the Creeds , and the foure firft Generali Councels , to 
 which for things Necejfary and Fundament all in the 
 
 Faith, we need no afsiftance from 
 other Generali Councels. And fome 
 cf your c owne , very honeft and ve- 
 ry Learned, were of the fame Opini- 
 on with me. And for the peace and 
 
 ipfum eft t verifsimum. Tamen cum nihil unity of the Church in things abjo * 
 
 fere fervetury drc. Pet. de Aliaco. L. dc i i neC pffar * we have the fame 
 reformat. Ecc/ef. fine. So that after - necejjap , WC naVC tne lame 
 
 infallible direction that wee have 
 for Faith. But in Things notnecejfa - 
 ry, ( though they be Tbine Truths 
 alloj if about them Chriftianmen 
 doe differ , *tis no more then they 
 have done, more or lcfle in all Ages 
 of the Church, and they may dif- 
 fer and yet preferve the d One neerf 
 fury Faith , and e Charity too, entire, 
 if they be fo well minded. I con* 
 fefTe it were heartily to be wiflhed, 
 that in thefe things alfomen might 
 
 perfect , tn qua plene veritxs cognofce- Be a ]J Q f one mind and one judge- 
 tur, d omnts appetttus complebttur, Non i • 1 i * " a ni ° 
 
 tamen repugns paci imperfedfse, quails mCHt , tO Which the ApOule eX- 
 
 haheturinvn.Jho 2.2a.q.2^.A.^.ad2. hortS, f l.Cor*l. Blit this Cannot be 
 tiCor.uo. Pali 2 2 - hoped for till the Church b tTrinm- 
 
 phant over all humane frailties which here hang thick 
 and clofe about her. The want both of Vnity and 
 
 Fence 
 
 c Sunt quinefcio qua dutti rat tone fenti- 
 tint non e(Je opus Generali Concilio (De 
 Conltantienli loquitur) dicentes y omnia 
 bene a Patrtbus nofirts Ordinata ac Con - 
 flituta } modo ab omntbus legitime dr fide • 
 liter Jtrvartntur . Fatemur equidem id 
 
 Councels arc rather to Decree for Obfsr - 
 vance , then to make any new ‘Determi- 
 nations of the Faith. 
 
 d Non omnis Error in his qua.fidei fiunt 3 
 eft aut Infidehtas , aut FUrefis. Holkot. 
 tn l. Sent. q. 1. ad q. K. 
 c Scimus quojdam quod femel imbiberint 
 nolle deponere, nec prepofitum fuutn facile 
 mutarey fed falve inter Co degas pacts dr 
 concordat vinculo , quadam propria qua 
 apud ft femel fint ufurpatap-etinere. ffua 
 in re nec nos vim aliquant facimus , aut 
 It gem damns, &c. S Cypr. L. i. Epifi. l. 
 Concordia qua ejl Charitatiseffcttus , eft 
 nnio Voluntatum, non Opmionum. Tho. 
 2.2 q -7,7- sir. i c. Dijfenfto de Minimis, 
 dr de Opinioxibus repugnat quidem paci 
 
4 
 
 «■ I f * ' 6 . 
 
 rocecding too often 3 evcn where 
 from Men and their Humours , rat 
 Things and Err ours to be found in them. 
 
 And fb^.C.tels me,T hat it is not tberforefas I would 
 perfwade) the fault of Councels Definitions , hut the pride of 
 fuch diipiflpreferre, and not fubmit their private Judge- 
 ments, that loffpnd continues the Ioffe of peaceand unity of the 
 Qmrcb,and the ivant of certainty in that one a fore- J aid fotile - 
 faving Faith. Once againe I am bold to tell A. C. that 
 there is no want of certainty, moil infallible certainty 
 of That one foule faving Faith. And if for other opinions 
 . which flutter about it, there be a difference , a dangerous 
 difference , as at this day there is, yet neceffary it is not, 
 thatcherfore,or for prevention thereof, there fhould be 
 fuch a Certainty , an Infallible Certainty in thefe things. 
 For he underftood himfelfe well that faid, Oportet ejfe 
 ETerefes, l. for. 11. There mud, there will be Hereftes. 
 And whereioever that TSfeeefiity lies, ’tis out of doubt 
 enough to prove, That ChriH never left fuch an Infalli- 
 ble Ajfurance as is able to prevent them: Or fuch a Ma- 
 jlering Tower in his Church , as is able to over awe 
 them ; but they come with their Oportet about them - 
 and they rife and fpring in all Ages very ftrangely. But 
 in particular for that which firft caufed 3 and now con-* 
 tinues the lofle of Vnity in the Church of Chrift, as I 
 make no doubt but that the Pride of men is one Caufe, 
 fo yet can I not think that Pride is the adequate and foie 
 Caufe thereof. But in part Pride caufed it,and Pride on 
 all fides ; Pride in fome that would not at firft,nor will 
 not lince fubmit their private judgements , where, with 
 good Confcience, they may, and ought. And Pride in 
 others that would not firft, nor will not yet mend ma- 
 nifeft, great, and dangerous errours , which with all 
 good C onfcience they ought to do. But Tis not Pride , 
 not to fubmit to known and groffe Errours ? And the 
 
 A a a Definitions 
 
 .... 
 
 Religion is pre^ 
 her then from 
 
 Peace p 
 tended. 
 
3 6i 
 
 5-38. 
 
 N u M. 2 5. 
 A. C.p.ji. 
 
 Definitions of Ibmc founcels ( perhaps the Lateran , 
 Conftance, and Trent) have beene greater and more ur- 
 gent Caufes of breach of ‘Unity, then the Pride of 
 men hath been, which yet I (hall never excufe, where- 
 ere it is. 
 
 to 
 
 Herb farre this one foule-fiv’ing Faith extends , AX. 
 tels me I have confefled it not a vvorke for my pen : 'But, 
 he (ayes, it is to be learned from that One , Holy } fatholike , 
 Xpofiolike, ah? ayes Vtftble , and Infallible %oman Churchy of 
 which the Lady } once doubting , is now fully fatisfied , <&c; 
 Indeed (though A* Q. lets this down with lome (corn, 
 
 * §.3$. which I can ealily pafle over)’tis true that thus I a faid j 
 
 There is a Latitude in Faith , efpecially in reference to 
 different mens falvation . But to let a Bound to this, 
 and ftri&ly to define it , Iujl thus farre you muft Be- 
 lieye in every particular , or incurre damnation's no work 
 for my pen. Thus I laid, and thus I fay ftilh For 
 though the Foundation be one and the lame in all , yet 
 
 * $?• a b Latitude there is, and a large/ one too , when you 
 
 come to Confider not the Foundation common to all, 
 
 but things necejfary to many particular 
 c S. Luc. i2. 45. VnkHique feenudum mens Salvation. For to whomfoeVer 
 
 praporHottem ftiam, fecundum differ enti- s. , / , . n 
 
 etm Scientist/*/ ignoranti®, &c. St Ood batkgtven more, of htm [halimore 
 
 fie*. Extenditttr deUrina h*c,nonfolitm be required , c S t Lv.C. U. as Well in 
 nd Donum Scientist , &c. Cajetan. in {£> y r • 1 _ , 
 
 S, Luc. 12. Eccc ejuomodo Sci&ttU ag- ehefe , as in Obedience and Ferfor - 
 
 gravat Culp*m. Vnde Gregoritu , &$. mance. And the gifts of God, both 
 
 ordinary and extraordinary, Co par- 
 
 mans Salvation, which are net lb for a ticular men are lo Various, ZS that for 
 
 poorc Ignorant foule. Si epeu dc Ante - my part \ h 0 [d it impoflible for the 
 cejforitw noftruvel ignorant er, vtl Jim- 1 t n 1 • 1 rr 
 
 p/tciter nonhoc okfervavity & tenuit^uod ableri pen that is to exprelle it. And 
 ws ‘Demina facere exanplo & magifie- i n this refped: l d laid it With humi- 
 
 Jndalgentik Domini Vent a cencedi.Nobu Fty Z\\d t\Jdj 0 n • That tO let thefe 
 verb non poterit ignofei , qmnttnc a Do- bounds , WaS no WOrkc for mV pen. 
 
 prian. L.t.Efift. 3. y Nor Wl11 1 cver take upon me to 
 
 4 § 3*. A’*. 1. exprefle that Tenet , or Opinion ( the 
 
 denial! 
 
\ 
 
 neb t4 & faet It eft at emit as : lejum Juf ci- 
 tatum a morttw per ‘Dcwn credere, & ip - 
 fitm ejfe Dominum confttcri^&c. S. Hilar. 
 
 §.38. ( , , ' , 
 
 deniallof the Foundation onely excepted) which may 
 fhut any Cbriflian , the meaneft out of heaven. And 
 A. C. 1 believe you know very well, to what a nar- 
 row landing, Come * Learned of , . rv .> . r , 
 
 3 ftysrttcult rida funt (tent rrtncipia per 
 
 your owne fide bring the very fte not a. Et ft cut qua. dam eorttm in aliis 
 
 Foundation it felfe, rather then they tonviyientur > *t* omnes AmcuU 
 
 I r - \ \\ J implicit e continent ur in alicjtu bus frirttU 
 
 Will looic any that lay hold on Credibilibus cftcundumillud ad Hcb. 
 
 Chrift, the Sonne of God, and Re- n-Tho.i lo.c.inabjoiuto 
 
 deemer of the world. And as 
 Chrift Epitomizes the whole Latt> 
 of Obedience into thefe two great L ' x ®' (ieTrin * ad fi nem * 
 Commandements : I he LoMeof God , and ourlfeiftji- 
 lour , S. Mat. ii. SotheApoftle epitomizes thewhole s.Matth.22.37* 
 Law of Beliefe into thefe two great AfTents : 7 hat God 
 is ; And that He is a %ftoarder of them that feeke him ? 
 
 Heb. u. That feeke him in Chriff. And S .Peter Heb; n.tf. 
 was full of the Holy Ghoft, when he exp re 11 ; it, That 
 there is no (alvation to them that feeke it in, or by ano- 
 ther Name , ACi. 4 . 
 
 But lince this is no woike for my pen, it feemes 
 \A.C. will notlay ’tis aworke b for 
 his. But he tels us , * ’Tts to be learned 
 of the One ,Holy,Catho like, Hpojlolike , 
 alwaies Vifible , and Infallible %omane 
 Church. Titles enough given to the 
 ^omane Church, and f wifh Hie deferved them all, for 
 then we flhould have peace. But us farre other wife. 
 
 Owe fhe is, as a particular Church, but not 7 he One. 
 
 Holy fhe would be counted 5 but the world may fee, if it 
 will not blinde it felf^of what value Holhiejfe is in that 
 Court and Countrey. Catholike fire is not, in any fenfe 
 of the word, for fhe is not the cP v . r „ 
 
 7 , s' 1 vi -Roman a Ecclefta particulars. Bdlar. 
 
 c c VntVerjau , and lo not LatboliKe l. 4. de Ro, Pont, c 4. §. 1. Cmhoiica 
 
 in extent. Nor is fhee found in tllaqm dtftufa eft per univer- 
 
 _ _ . | t . J , Jum Orbem. S. CynJ, Hierofol. Ca~ 
 
 DoBrme, and in things which ^,iS. 
 
 A a a 2. come 
 
 Aft. 4.1-2. 
 
 N u m . 2 6 . 
 
 » ; • ... 
 
 b And yet before in this Conference 
 & apud ssi. C. papr. 42. the Iefuite 
 whom he defends hath faid it exprefly. 
 That all thofe points are Fundament all 
 ■which are necejfarj to f alvation, 
 
 A. C.p. 72, 
 
 > 
 

 S'-? 8 - 
 
 come neare up- 
 on the Foundati- 
 on too ; lo not 
 * Catholike in be- 
 liefe, Nor is fhe 
 the Trinie Mother 
 Church of Chri- 
 ftianity • b Ieru - 
 
 tholike as a Foun- 
 taine } ot Originally 
 or as the Head , 
 or ^oot of the 
 Catholike. 
 
 a Catholic a enim dicitur Bede ft a ilia qua univerfalittr duet fine 
 u/lodefettu , vcL differentia dogmatum. S. C yril. Hieroiol. ta~ 
 tech 18. Vnde aAugujHnus Jit bf crip fit fe Efijcopum (fiatholicA 
 Ecckfu Hipponire ^unfits . E. i. de Aclts cum F oelice Manu h.c.io. 
 
 Et l. 2. c. i .Et Cat ho lie a AlexandrinorumSoz, 1 . 1 . Htfi.c . p. Et 
 t. 2.C. 3. And fo every particular Church is or may be called 
 Catholike, and that truly, lo long as it teaches Catholike Do- 
 61:rine. In which fenle the Particular Romanc Church was called 
 Catholike, lb long as it taught all and onely thofe things to be De 
 Fide, which the Catholike Church it ielfe maintain’d. But now 
 J^ome doth not lb. 
 
 h Supra. §.35 .Nu 9. Other Churches belide the Romane are f a [ em Was that } 
 called Matres, and Originates Ecclefue, as in Tertul. de prefer ip. 1 p r _ m 
 
 adverf harefi. c.2 1. Et tccUfia HieroJcljmttana qua altarum om « 
 nium Mater, ns A' y£ /**§<. &c. Theodoret. L.yHifi. Eccl.c.g. 
 ex Ltbetlo Synodico d Condi, Conflantinop. 2 . tranf/nifl* ad Con - 
 cilium fub Damafio turn Eoma coadum. Et Conlhntinopohtana 
 Ecclefia dicitur omnium all arum Caput. Cod. L uTit.2. Leg, 
 
 -4. That is, n ot limply of all Churches, but of all in that Patri- 
 archate. And i'o %j?me is the Head of all in the P^nmane Patri- 
 archate. 
 
 N u m * 2 7 . And becaufe many Romanifts Ob je& here (though 
 
 f Ft Ecclefu C*- j{'C. doth it not) that S .Cyprian called the c Romane 
 cE^Matricem fburcb, the foot and Matrix of the Catholike Qhurch of 
 agnofc event & ChriftJ hope I flhall have leave to explaine that difficult 
 ^^Epift 8. yP place alfo Firft then S Cyprian names not fomc. That 
 4 Edit.'Bafilienf. iLnds onely in the Margin , and was placed there 
 
 manca alfo fp- as ^ ls p art icular judgement led d him that fet out S.Cypri - 
 plies this fpeech an. Secondly , the trueftory of that Epiflle, and that 
 § w ^ich S. fyp rian into this Exprcffion , was this. 
 
 1 7. And fo alfo Cornelius then chofen Tope^x poftulates with S .Cyprian y 
 yamelitu upon yp a t his Letters to fome were directed onely to the 
 
 ^Cyprian. But Clergy there, and net to Him, and takes it ill,as if S.Cypri - 
 they wrong him. an had thereby feemed to difapprove his EleFiion S. Cy- 
 prian replies, That by reafon of the Schijme moov'd 
 then by Novatian, it was uncertaine in A f rick which of 
 the Two had the more Canonicall right to the Sea of 
 fome^nd that therfore he nam’d him not. But yet that 
 during this unceitainty, he exhorted all that failed thi- 
 ther, ut Eccleji at Catholic a fadteem & Matricem agnofeerent 
 (jr tenerent : That in all their carriage they fhould 
 
 acknowledge 
 
 1 
 
. *! 
 
 acknowledge , audio hold themfclvcs unro the Fnity 
 of the Catholike Qmr eh 5 which is the [/ ^oot and Matrix of 
 it * and the only way to avoid participation in the 
 Schifme . And that this mud be S. l yprians meaning f 
 fhall thus proove. Fir/? , bccaufe, i his could not be 
 his meaning or Intention, That the Sea of %ofnt it'd* 
 the f ^oot or Matrix of the Qathohke Qhurch. For if hee 
 had told them fo , hee had left them in as great, or 
 greater difficulty . then hee found them. For there 
 was then an Open and an Apparent Schifme in the Church 
 of ( ^ome. iwo Bifiops^Qomehus and NoVatian - } T'too 
 Congregations y which rcfpe&ively attended and ob- 
 ferved them. So that a perplexed Queftion mull 
 needs have divided their thoughts , which of thefc 
 Two had beene that Ifoot and Matrix of the Catho- 
 like Church. Therefore had S. (fyprian meant to pro- 
 nounce ^ome the %oot and Matrix of the Catholike 
 Church y hee would never have done it at fuch 
 a time, when Rome it felfe was in Schifme. 
 
 Whereas in the other fenfc , the Counfell is good and 
 plainc, Namely, That they fhould hold themfelvcs to 
 the Vmty and Communion of the Qathohke Church which 
 is the Roote of it. And then neceflarily they were to 
 fufpend their Communion there, till theyfaw how 
 the Catholike Church did incline, to approove,or difap- 
 proove the Eledfion of the One, or the Other. And 
 thus S. Cyprian frees himfelfe to Cornelius from the ve- 
 ry lead Touch of Schifme. Secondly ,Bec aufe this jenje 
 comes home to * Baronins. For heeaffirmes, That * B , iCn ^ 
 
 S. Cyprian and his Colleagues the African r B flops did 
 Cmmunionem fufpendcre , fufpend their Communion, wncre hee cites 
 untill they heard by Caldonius and Fortunatus , whofe * ls 
 the undoubted right was. So it feems S. Cyprian gave 
 that Counfell to thefe Travellers, which himfelfe fol- 
 lowed. For if %pme y during the Schifme , and in fo 
 
 A a a 5 great 
 
f 7^os autern qut 
 Eccleftdt Uni us 
 Caput & Hjtdi" 
 cem ten owns ,pro 
 certo fcimHs t & 
 credimus , nihil 
 extra Ecclepam 
 l ieere i & r Baptif- 
 matis quod eft u- 
 num , Caput nos 
 ejfc , ubi & ipf e 
 Baptizatus pri- 
 nt fueraty qttan- 
 do Divin a Vni- 
 tatisy & %jitio - 
 nem & veritate 
 tenebat.S. Cypr, 
 ad Iubain.Epift. 
 j$.Edit t Pamel. 
 
 great uncertainty had yet beene 'l\aMx Ecclefiat Catho - 
 lie# Root of the Catholike Church of Chnftjl would 
 fainc know-how S. Cyprian fo great and famous an 
 Affertor of the Churches HJnit^ durft once fo much as 
 thinkc of fufyendin* Communion. with her. Thirdly 3 Be- 
 caufe this len(c will be pfaine alfxrby other Paffages 
 out of other Epiftles of S. Cyprian* For writing to 
 lubaianus an Africane Bijhop againlt the NoVatians , who 
 then infefted thofe parts , and durft dfebaptife Catho- 
 like ChriftianSjhc faith thus, t ‘But we who hold the head 
 and %oot of One Churchy doe kno'W for certaine , and belief?, 
 that nothing of this is lawfulloutof the Catholike Church; 
 And that of Baptifme 7 which is but 0;?e, we are the Head 
 where he himfelfe was at firH Baptised , when hee held the 
 Ground and Verity of Divine Vanity. Now I conceive 
 ’tis all one, or at leaft as Argumentative to all purpo- 
 fes to be Caput or Badix B apt if mat is , Head or Root of 
 Baptifme 7 as Head or Root of the Church . For there’s 
 but One Btptifme } as well as but One Church , and that 
 is theentrance into this. And S. Cyprian affirmcs and 
 includes himfelfe, Nos ejjs Caput , that we are the Head 
 oTBapti/me.s Where yet ( I pray obferve it ) he cannot 
 by Nos, We ? meane his own B erf on ( though if he did., 
 he were the more Oppofireto ( 2 {me) much lefle can 
 he meane the Romane Churchy as it is a Particular and 
 ftands fcparaterrom others. For then how could he 
 fay, Nos efe Caput, that we are the Head ? Therefore 
 he niuft needs meane the Vnity and Society of the Church 
 Catholike , which the NoVatians had then left, and wher- 
 of he and his Church were ftill mcmbers.Befides moft 
 manifeft it is, that he cals that Church Caput Baptifma - 
 tis the Head of Baptifme , inhere Bfovatian 'Was Baptize 
 ed(t hey are his own words Jand probableit is, that was 
 fome, Becaufe that Schifmatick was a Bomane Brief, 
 And yet for all this S. Cyprian fayes , Nos ejje Caput 
 
5 
 
 i ,J 7 
 
 f ; •» 
 
 Baptifmatis, thatwc are the Head of Baprifmc.thoiigh 
 he were at Carthage. By which it is plain ? That as Caput 
 is paraleli t6fl^dix,and Matrix : So alfo that by Caput $ 
 the head of Baptifme,he includes together with pome 
 all the other members of the Church Vniverfall. Again, 
 
 S.*Cyprian writes to Cornelius and ceniures the fchiima- * suborarem at 
 ticall Cariageof the Novatians at (Rome. Andtelshim *<jC Atko } ic *Jc- 
 fareher 5 that he hadfent Caldonius and Fort unit ns to la- }i 7 cVptumem 
 hour Peace in that Church , that fo they might he reduced br * componerent 
 to y andcompofedintheVnityof the Catholike Church. Put % 
 becau/e the ObHinate^and inflexible pertinacy of the other Par- cnl * copularm. 
 ty had not only refufed Radicis & Macris finunv t/;e bofome tb 
 
 of their Mother and embracings of their Ppot, but the Schifme flimta &inflcx~ 
 increasing and growing raw to the H>orfe,batb fet up a Bifbop ntum* a 
 
 to kfelfe.lrc. Where ns obfervable, and 1 chink plainc, cu & Mamtfii 
 That S. Cyprian imployed his Legats not to bring the n v^^ utc m - 
 Catholike Church to the communion of pome, but Pome 
 to the Catholike Church. Or to bring the NoVatians l lt f^nte & tK 
 not only to Communicate with Cornelius, but with 
 the Qhurch Vniverfad ) which was therefore Head £p*jcop U m fibi 
 and Ppot in S. Cyprians judgement y even to Ppme 7 l% 
 
 it felf ; as well as to all ocher. Great, Ancient, or even Apo . j Epift.i*. 
 ftolicall Churches . And this is yet more plaine by the fc- 
 quelh For when thofe his Legats had laboured to 
 bring thofe Schifmatkks to the Vnity of the Catholike 
 Churchy yet he complaints their Labour was loft. And 
 why > Why,becaufe recu/abant Padicis O* Matris finuin - 
 they refufed the Bofome of the Root, and the Mo- 
 ther. Therefore it mull needs be , that in S. Cyprians * 
 fenfe^thefetwo Vnitas Catholic ct Ecclefi<e, the unity of the 
 Catholike Church And padicis y otSMatricis Sinus y or 
 Complexus , the Bofomc 5 or Embracing of the Root, or 
 the Mother, are all one. And then Ppdix an&Matrix^ 
 are not words by which he ExprefTes the Ppmane Sea y 
 in particular^ but he denotes by them the c Vnitypf 
 
Apofiolicam^ ex qua reliquA. Hanc nulli 
 loco affioit B. Rhenanus Annot. in Ar- 
 numer.to. Tcrtul. deprafcript. &c. Njlli 
 loco. Therefore not at %ome. But thete 
 words [ Hanc mdli loco affigit 3 deleAn - 
 tnr > iayes the Spanijh Inquifition upon 
 f j^;nanHs i printed at Madrid An .15 84 . 
 
 * Tot <tc tantd Ecctefu Vna ejiuiaab the Church Catholike . Fourthly 3 Bc- 
 Apofiohsprtma ex caufe * Tertullian feemes to nice to 
 
 omnes pro bant Vrniatem: Tert depraf.dd- agree ID the lattlC icnie.ror iasth he 
 
 verf.HArcAojorr 0 thejefo many and great Churches founds 
 
 ed by theApoHles, taken all ohhem 
 together y are that One Church from the 
 Apofiles out of V?hich are A IL So all are 
 l irjf and all Apofiolike , while they all 
 alloy? and prove Vnam Vnitatem, 
 'One Vnity. Nor can any poflibly underfland this of any 
 Particular Church, but fubordinately. As S .Gregory 
 « gregery Naz. M^ww.fayes the Church of Qatfarea wzs*Mater } the Mo- 
 fivs the church t p er a l mo fi a ll Churches : which muft needs be under - 
 
 Mater*™* ope** Itood offome Neighbouring Churches 3 not of the whole 
 omnia EccicfiA - Catholike Churck And where b Famelius fpcakes of OrF 
 ME^mi tunTcr- P na ^ and Mother Churches , he names fix } and others } and 
 tul. deprtftript. R^ome in the laft place. Thcrfore certainly no Fartku- 
 adverf. Etrcf.c. j ar Q mc ] ? can bee the Root or Matrix of the Catholike ; 
 2 hA&.ii 9 - g ut - s rootC( j m h cr own y n ity > downe from the 
 
 Apofiles, and no where els extra Veum. And this is far- 
 ther manifeit by the Irreligious aH of the Emperor Adri- 
 an. For he intending to root out th t faith of Chrifiy ook 
 this courfe. Hee Confecrated Simulacrum IoVis 5 the 
 % Image of Jupiter in the very place where Ghrift fuffer d, 
 
 and prophaned Bethlehem with the Temple of Adonis . 
 cTo this md S bat the ^° 0t aS it were, and the foundation of the 
 Ecclefi* tollere - Church might be taken aV?ay^ if in thofe places Idols might bee 
 m j iS worfiiipedjn which Chrifl himfelf y?as born, and f offered. &c, 
 
 in qmbus C^i - ' By which it is moft evidenr/That either lerujalem was 
 fius nattts eft. the Root of the Catholike Church any P articular Church 
 
 were fo. Or rather that Adrian was deceived ( as being 
 an Heathen he well mightjin that he thought the Vm- 
 y erf ill Church had any particular or Locall^oot of its 
 Being. Or that he could deftroy it all by laying it waft 
 in any one place whatfoever. And S, Auguftm I think 
 
 &c.S. Pauiinus 
 Ej rift. 11. adS e- 
 verum. 
 

 Sp 
 
 orttnex 
 ex ic runt 
 
 is full for this , That the ( 'atholih Church mad: have a 
 Catholike Root or Matrix too. For * he cels us, That ail 
 Her e fie $ nthatfoeVer "bent out dcilla, cut of the Qatbohke 
 Church. For deiti* there can be out of no other. For t&ncjutim farmc- 
 all Herefies did not goe out of, any one Particular ta * nmtliade c j / f 
 Church * Hee goes on. J hey were cut of]- de Vue, autm mamt in 
 from this Catholtke c Vine fiill , as unprofitable branch- 'Kt'dce.faa.&c. 
 es, Ipfa autem 3 but this (fathdike Church rem imes in *d Catechumen, 
 Radice fua, m ils owne Root e , in its olene r Oine , in L ^c. 6 . 
 its owne Charity , which mull needs bee as ample, 
 and as Catholike as it felfe. Or elfe, were it any 
 Particular, All Hereticall r B>ancbes could not bee 
 cut off from one (Root. And Saint Auguiline fayes 
 againe , t That the Donatifts did not Confidtr that x Bcnati 
 they Trere cut off from the Root of the Eaflerne Church - non Confidsrat fs 
 es . Where you fee againe, tisftill but Owe Root of ff £Ct f am e d e * 
 
 r't \ A Y 1 C .ft I Kjtdice Orient a** 
 
 many Churches. And that lr any man will have hum EcdefiarH. 
 
 a Particular ( Root of the Catholike Church, hee 
 
 muft have it in the Eaft y notin the Weil at Rome. 17 °'P rm *' 
 
 And now lajlly , befldes this out of Saint Cyprian 
 to proove hisownc meaning (and fure hee is the 
 bell Interpreter of himfelfe ) and , other afiifting 
 proofes , *tis mod: evident , that in the prime and 
 principall fenfe, the Catholike Church , and her Vnity 
 is the Head 7 Rooty or THatrix of Rome 7 and all 
 other Particular Churches ; and not Rome^ or any 
 other R articular , the Head , Root y or cAiatrix of it. 
 
 For there is a double Root of the Churches there is of 
 all things elfe : That is, Radix EJ] entice } the Root^ 
 
 Head y or Matrix of its E) fence. And this is the prime 
 fenfe . For EJfence and Being is firft in all things. And 
 then there is Radix ExiUentU } thc Root of its Exiflence 
 and formall Being, which a! way cs prefuppofes Being* 
 
 And is therefore a fenfe lejfe Principall. Now to apply 
 this. The Catholike or Vniverfall Church is y and 
 
 v B b b muft 
 
 r 
 
mult needs bee the 3 ^ oot of Ejjence and Being to Ppme y 
 and all other ParticularSaAad this is the Principall poot, 
 Header Matrix that gives Being. And pome, but with 
 all other Particular Churches, and no more then 
 other Tatriarchall Churches, was and is Padix Exijlen- 
 tiA y the poot oi The Churches Exiflence. And this agrees 
 with that knowne and received Pule in A rt : That 
 Fniverfals give Ejjence to their Particulars , and Particulars 
 fupply their Fniverfals V>itb Exijlence. For as Socrates and 
 every Particular man borrow their Eflence from 
 the Species and Definition of a man, v ? h is Vniver- 
 fall, but this Vniverfall Natureand Bciri^ f Man hath 
 no aSludl Exigence but in Socrates and al jther parti-* 
 cular men : fo,the Church of Pome, and cvr j other par- 
 ticular Church in the world, receive their very Eflence 
 a*nd Being of a Church from the Definition of the 
 Catholike Fniverfall Church of Chrijl • But this r ^Vzi~ 
 *v erf all feature and Being of the Church hath no 
 aBuall Exijlence but in Pome and all other Particular 
 Churches, and equall Exiflence in all her particulars,And 
 fhould all the Particular Churches in the world fall 
 away from Chrift/ave only One( which God forbid ) 
 yet the Mature , Ejjence , and Being of the Vniverfall 
 Church would both Exijl and Suhfjl in that one Par - 
 ticular. Out of all which to memoft cleare it is, That 
 for the Churches Being, the Catholike Church, and that in 
 Vnity{ for Em & Fnum y Being, and Being one, arc Con- 
 vertible) is padix, the poot, Head fMatrix, Fountaine, 
 or Originall (call it what you will ) of Ppme^, and all 
 other Particular Churches. But Pome no more the 1 other 
 Churches , rhetor, or Matrix of the Catholike Lburchs 
 Exigence oxPlace of her abtuall Refidence. And this I 
 fay for her Exiflence only, not the purity or form of her 
 Exiflence, which is not here confidered - But if the Ca- 
 tholike fhe be not, nor the ro. t of the Catholike (Jhurch,yct 
 
? 8 ; 
 
 57 ! 
 
 ApoftolikeShc is, as being; the Sea 
 
 A * Z3 
 
 a or One, and Hee a Prime 
 
 But then not Jpojlohke ? as the 
 Church is called in the Creed from 
 all the Apeflles , no nor the b Onely 
 Apoltolike. Vifibk I may not deny 
 God hath hitherto preferved Her , 
 but for a better end doubtleffe 
 then they turne it to. But Infallible 
 She was never : Yet if that Lady 
 did as the hfuite in his dole 
 avowSjOr others will relt latisfied 
 with it, who can helpe it ? Sure 
 none but God. And by A. 0. leave 
 this (Which I laid, is no worke 
 for my pen) cannot be learned , 
 
 ipofiolih I hope (lie is. Indeed a Not ^Eellarmlne would have it, with a 
 
 1 - ■ - Hixc elicit ur z/fpofloiica , quia in eh 
 
 S uccejfio Epifcopo-rum ab Apojlohs cU - 
 duPla eft ufqtte ad nos. Btllar. L. 4. do 
 notis Eccl.c. 8. §. 1. Tor by this Rea- 
 ion neither Ieru(alcm 3 nox Antioch were 
 in their times Apoffolike Churches; Bc- 
 caufe bucceilion of Bui ops hath not fuc- 
 Ceeded in them to this day .De Colleges 
 dgebafttr (jtii pojfcnt &c. ludicio ftpo- 
 {tolicarum Ecclciiarum cast/ am fuam in • 
 tegram refervare. S. Aug. dpi ft. 1 62, 
 Iorde T U'rrecrem : cnumcrat jcx V erbi 
 hujus fsgnificat tones. Quorum prirna 
 eft. ApoilaiKo. diet tar quia in Apolto- 
 lis G nc. initiata eft . Bos enim in (lit u it 
 quafi fundamental?} Ecclefia , &c. io ; 
 be Turrecr. L. 1. Summa, c. 18- bt 
 q u i a 0 rigmemfu mpfit ab Aposiol is & c . 
 Ibid: Vbi dicit ctiam S, Pat res appofu- 
 ifehanc 'Uocem [Apoltoiicam ] in Srm- 
 bolo fuo,fupra fyrnbolum ApoAolorum, 
 ibid 
 
 b Ecclefia Apeflolica, ut SmyrnPorum, 
 
 , , n tti s' 1 11 1 & reliant cfb A poftohs fuxdata, Tertul. 
 
 110 110 t Or the One, BLotyJ^ dthollrie y dlh, A.c prttfer ip : adverf. ELtret : c. 32 , F or - 
 
 Jmftohke Church, much leffe of the curre Sccleftas Apoftolicas &c. Babes 
 -p, J \ \ -r 1 • Corinthum , Philippas, "Thefalonicenfes 
 
 hfiMClll. roi though the Foundation Epheftm, R omarx-. c.oz.Et P<xvr\e- 
 be one and the fame. Sc lllfficieiltly lius enumerat Hierofclymitanam, inti - 
 
 knowne by Scripture and the Creeds ; Romanam< p amel Yb. e. - r . 
 
 Y et for the building upon the Fotm- flu. 129. And it mav be obfeived, 4UC 
 datum , the adding to it • the Detra- 
 cling fr®m it • the loyning other 
 things with it ; The grating upon 
 it : Aawi feach o* thele may bee 
 damnable to lome, and not to others, according to 
 the Knowledge, Wifdontejneanes of hiformation which (erne 
 have, and others want : And according to the mith 
 ranee y Jmplicity , and ^ ant of Information 9 which fome 
 others have, and cannot helpe : And according to the 
 Negligence , Contempt, Wtlfulnej] e y and Malice y with Obfti- 
 nacy y which fome haveagainft the Knowne Truth ; 
 and all or fome of thefe in different degrees in every 
 
 Bbb 2 paiticular 
 
 lo long agoe Teriullian , ai:d io la. - ly 
 Pamelius ihonld reckon Rome lai i. r ghtin 
 & alia Ecclejia qua ab his Apoflolua 
 ctiam deputantur , ut fob ales Eectefaram 
 ApoPlolicarum c^c.Tertul .ib.c.2 o . 
 
37* 
 
 I 
 
 5 3P- 
 
 particular man. And that in the whole Latitude of 
 mankinds , from the moll wife and learned in the 
 Schooleof Chrift, to the fimpleft Idiot that hath 
 beene fo happy as to bee initiated into the Faith by 
 r Baptifmc , Now the Church hath not this knowledge 
 of all particulars, Mew, and Conditions , nor can (he ap- 
 ply the Conditions to the Men, And therefore cannot 
 teach juft how farre every man muft believe, as it re- 
 lates to the poffibility y or impoffibility of his falvationin 
 every particular. And that which the Church cannot 
 teach, men cannot learne of her. She can teach the Foun- 
 dation , and men were happy if they would learne it 5 
 and the Church more happy would (he teach nothing 
 but that as neceflary to Salvation • for certainly no- 
 thing but that is Neceflary. Now then whereas after 
 all this, the Iefuite tels us, that 
 
 F- '"Upon this and the precedent Conferences , the Lady 
 refled in judgement fully fatisfied(as jhe told aeon- 
 fident Friend)ofthe Truth of the L{omane Qwch- 
 es faith. let upon frailty and feare to offend the 1 
 fyngyfhe yeelded togoe to Qhurcb- y for which fl?e 
 Voas after Very forty, as fome of her friends can 
 teflifie; 
 
 §. 39. 
 N u m. 1. 
 
 B- This is all perfonall.And how that Honourable 
 Lady was then fetled in Conkiencc, how in Judge- 
 ment,! know not.This,I think,is made cleare enough, 
 That that which youfaid in this and the precedent 
 Conferences could fettle neither, unlcflein fome that 
 were fetled or feding beforeAs little do I know what 
 fhctold any confident friend of her approovingthe 
 ( T^oman caufe, No more whether it were frail ty,or feare* 
 or other Motive that made her yecld to go to Church, 
 nor how forry (hcc was for it , nor who can teftific 
 
 that 
 
 
 \ 
 
§-W‘ 373 
 
 thacforrow. Thislamfure of, if fliee repent, and 
 God forgive her other finnes, fhewill more eafiiy be 
 able to Anfwer for her comming to Church , then for her 
 leaving of the Church of England, and following the 
 fuperfticions and errours which the Romane Church 
 hath added in Point of Faith , and the Worflnp of God. 
 
 For the Lady was then living, when I anfwercd thus. 
 
 Now whereas 1 faid_ the Lady would fhrre rnore kt„ , 
 eafiiy be able to anfwer for her comming to Church, 
 then for her leaving the Church of England. To this 
 AX. excepts and fayes, Tirat J neither prove, nor can 
 prove , that it is lavpfull for one (per [beaded eJpcciaUy as 
 the Lady was) togoe to the 'Trotefkant Church. T here's 
 a great deale of cunning, and as much malice in this 
 pafTage 5 but I fhall eafiiy pluck the fling out of the 
 Tayle of this Wajpe. And firfl I have proved it alrea- 
 dy through this whole Difcourfe, and therefore can 
 prove it. That the Church of England is an Orthodox :e 
 Church. And therefore with the fame labour it is 
 proved, that men may lawfully goe unto it , and com - 
 mmicate with it, for fo a man not onely may, but ought 
 to doe with an Orthodoxs Church. And a % [omanifl may 
 communicate with the Church of England, without 
 any Offence in the Feature of the thing thereby incur- 
 red. But if his Confcience, through mif-information* 
 checke at it, he Should do well in that Cafe , rather to 
 informe his Confcience , then for fake any Orthodoxe Church 
 whatfoever. Secondly, A. C. tel s me plainly, That I can- 
 not prove that a man fo perfwaded as the Lady was, may 
 goe to theProteflant Qhurcb ; that is. That a Romane Ca - 
 tholike may not goe to the Proteflant Church . Why, I 
 never went about to proove that a Romane (faibo- 
 like beiug and continuing fuch, might again!! his 
 Confcience, goe to the 'Trotettant Qhurch . For thefe 
 words ( A man per Evaded cu the Lady is) are 
 
 B b b | words, 
 
m 
 
 N u m. 3. 
 
 * 
 
 §• 
 
 words, they are not mine. Mine are not (Imply that 
 the Lady might, or that (he might not; but Compa- 
 rative they are , 'That [be might more eafily anfftcr to God 
 for comming to , then for going from the Church of England . 
 And that is every way moft true. For in this doubtful! 
 time of hers, when, upon my Rcalons given, fhee 
 went againe to Church • when yet foone alter ( as 
 you fay at Icaft) ftiee was forriefor it. I lay, at this 
 time flic was in heart and refolution a Romane (fathd- 
 like , or flie was nor If flhe were not, (as it feemes by 
 her doubting fhee was not then fully refolved) then 
 my fpeech is moft true, that flie might more eafily an- 
 fwer God for comming to Service in the Church of 
 England , then for leaving it. For a Troteftant fliee had 
 beene, and, for ought I knew, at the end of this 
 Conference, fo flie was, and then ’twas no fin in it 
 lelfc to come to an Orthodoxe Church • nor no finne 
 aga i n fiber C on fc i e nee , fli e con ti nu i n g a Trot eft ant, 
 for ought which then appeared to mee. But if flie 
 then were a Romane Catholike (as the Jefuite and AX . 
 feeme confident flie was) yet my fpeech is true too* 
 Foe then flie might more eafily anfwer God for coiii- 
 mingtothe Qhurch of England , which is Orthodoxe , 
 and leaving the Church of Rome, which is finperftitiom , 
 then, by leaving the Church of England* communicate 
 with ali the fuperftitions of Rome . Now the cunning and 
 the malignity of A.C . lies in this, he would faine have the 
 world think that l am fo Indifferent in Religion > as that 
 I did maimaine 5 the Lady, being confcientioufly per- 
 fwaded of the Truth of the T^omifh Doctrine } might 
 yet, againftboth her con[cienoe y and again ft open and 
 avowed profefiotiy come to the Protefiant Church . 
 
 Neverthelefle, in hope his cunning malice would 
 not be dilcovered, againfi this (his owne fenie, that is 3 
 and not mine) he brings diverfe Reafons. As fir ft , 
 
 tis 
 
 / 
 
I 
 
 §- 19 ‘ 
 
 375 
 
 A.C.p % 73. 
 
 ’cis not lawfull ror one atfedled as that Lady was, that 
 is, for one that is relolved of the Truth of the %emane 
 Church., to goe to the Church of England , there, and in 
 that manner to ferve and worfhip God ; B ecau/e (faith 
 A.C.) thaVtoere to halt on both Jides, to ferVe t*too Maflers, 
 and to dijjemble with God and the 'toorld- Truly,! fay the 
 lame thing with hitr^ And that therefore neither may 
 a Brofe&*wf,that is refolved in Confidence, that the 
 profeffion of the true Faith is in the Church of England, 
 goe to the omiJJ ; Church, there, and in that manner to 
 lerve and worfhip God. Neither need \ give other 
 Anfwer , becaufe A C, urges this again!! his owne 
 fiction, not my ajfertion. Yet fince he will lo doe, I 
 fliall give a particular Anfwer to each of them. And to 
 this /hy? (fteafon of his, I lay thus, That to Believe Re- 
 ligion after one fort, and to praflife it after another, and 
 that in the maine points of worfhip , the Sacrament 
 and Invocation , is to halt 011 both „ _ . , . . . f . . , 
 
 tides, tO lerve two h/lalters, and cum Heretic is verfantttr, licitum Jit C a- 
 to diflcmble with God and the thol [ co A<iire Tempu ad qua H trend c<m- 
 
 world. And other then this I never Refp6nc | eo; Sir* 
 
 taught , nor ever faid that which nenefi per ft malum, Jed fudnatur a in- 
 
 might inferre the Conmty. But 
 
 A* C. give me leave to tell you, your cos fub poena Mortis 3 vel (Jonjifcationis 
 fellow Mate * Azorius affirmes this ■ , t mf u Htrenc*. 
 
 inexprenetermes • And what doe jubeat tantum, ut omnes Mandito fuo 
 you think ,can he prove it ? Nay, not hc%tHr f e fi CaMicts facere : 
 
 J . t 1 1 1 • ci -J J&Mprajtdntfoium Obedtema officium. 
 
 Abortus Onely, but Other t rusts and Sin jubeat , ut eo Symbolo fmtul Religion 
 
 lefuites here in England either teach nem Hamicam profaeantur, parerenon 
 
 A r 1 • in c n . 1 r debent. £hures iter urn, Anliceat Ca - 
 
 I Ome of their vl OJ S lytes } OC els l onie tholico obedireymod'o publice afeveret fe id 
 
 of them learn it without teaching, cfficere ,folum ut Principifm obc dint. non 
 
 That though they be pctlwaded S 
 
 thlS L^dy Was, that IS, though they »< ?bvnaejus publiuntnr , vel Vita eripia- 
 
 be <pamane Catbolik.es, yet either to /*£ rgMg? f*vd- 
 
 ^ f J 1 . r tur. hzovms Infitt. Moral.f.i,L Zc t 2j. 
 
 gaine honour, or lave their purie, p.1299. sdit.Parif. 1 6\C\ 
 
 they ; 
 
I 
 
 370 - §’19 - 
 
 — ' ■» 
 
 < they may goe to the Trot eft ant Qhurch , juft as the Iefii- 
 ite here fay.es, T he Lady did out of frailty and feare to oft 
 fend the King. Therefore! pray A, C if this be groffe 
 diflimulation both with God and the wold, fpcake 
 to your fellowestoleaveperfwading or pradifing of 
 it, andleave men in the profeftion of Religion to bee as 
 they feeme,ortofeemeand appeareas they are^ Let’s 
 have no Maskc worne here. A. f s . fecond Rea fen 
 why one fo perfwaded as that Lady was, might not 
 a. c.p. 73. ■ goe to the Trot eft ant Church , is, r Recau[e that "Were out- 
 
 wardly to profejje a Religion in ftonf deuce knowne to bee 
 falfe . To this I anfwer, that if this Reafon be 
 true, it concernes all men, as well as thof : that be per- 
 fwaded as the Lady was. For no man may outward- 
 ly profeife a Religion in confcicnce knowne to bee 
 falfe 5 For with the heart man beheyeth to righteoufneffe , 
 Rom.i 6 .ic* md with the mouth hee confeffeth to Jalvation, Rom, 10. 
 
 Now to his owne falvation no man can confeffea 
 
 4 
 
 knowne falfe Religion. Secondly 3 if the Religion of 
 the Troteftants be in confciencea knowne falfe Religion , 
 then the Romanifis Religion is fo too • for their Religion 
 is the fame • Nor do the Church of Rome and the Tro- 
 teftants fet up a different Religion (for the QmRlian Re- 
 ligion is the iamc to both) but they differ in the fame 
 (Religion : And the difference is in certaine grofte cor- 
 ruptions ^ to the very endangering 01 ialvation, which 
 each fide fayes the other is guilty of. Thirdly , the 
 Reafon given is moll untrue ■ for it may appeare by 
 all the former Difcourfe to any Indifferent Reader , that 
 Religion^ as it is profeffed in the Church of Er gland , is 
 neareft of any Church now in being to the Trimitiye 
 Qhurch ; And therefore riot a Religion knowne to be 
 falfe. And this I both doc and can prove, were not 
 PfaI.5S.4- the deafeneffe of the Ajfe upon the eares of leduced 
 Chriftians in all humane and divided parties wharf o* 
 ever* 1 After 
 
 

 377 
 
 can I not agree in ludgemtnt wich him 
 that iayts in Print; God bepraifcd fir the 
 difagreemcnt in Religion. Nor in Dcvc- 
 ti< n with him that prayed in the PuJpit : 
 That God would teare the Rent of%eligi- 
 on Wider, But of S. Greg. Nazr. Opini- 
 on I am. Ouli eif .luK&cfjfa, Grc. 2>(on (lu~ 
 demut pad in detriment urm era Do El ri- 
 vet ut ftcilitatu } & AAunfuetudinii 
 
 . 
 
 After thefe Reaions thus given by him , J.C. Num. 4, 
 tels me, ' That I neither doe nor can prove any fuperfti- AC, P 7 > 
 tion or errour to be in the %omane * (Religion. What none * I would A. c 
 at all ? Now truly l would to God from my heart would. calOt the 
 
 this were true , and that the Church of Tp me were fo / wa fumf asiome 
 happy, and the T X>hole Catholike Church thereby bleffed under/hnding 
 
 with Truth and Teace . For I am confident fuch L ' ^ u ’ 
 
 Truth as that would (bone either t For though I [pure their Names , yet 
 Command Peace , or t confound Teace - 
 'Breakers. But is there no Super]} i- 
 tinn in Adoration of Images t None 
 in Invocation of Saints ? None in 
 Adoration of the Sacrament ? Is there 
 no errour in breaking Chrifis own 
 
 Inflitution of the Sacrament, by gi- f* matn coUigamw. —£t rurfum , /v 
 
 . , . / • 1 0 5 v t 0 cem colimus legitime puvrtAntes . G?c. 
 
 ving it but in one kmde\ None orat.^i. 
 
 about Turgatorie ? About Common Trayer in an un - 
 knoVane tongue none ? Thde and many more are 
 in the %omane Religion , ( if you will needs call it 
 fo. ) And tis no hard worke to prove every of 
 thefe to be Errour , or Superjlition , or both . But if 
 jTX. think io meanelyof me, that though this be no 
 hard worke in it felfc, yet that l ( fuch is my 
 weakenede) cannot prove it, I fhall leave him to 
 enjoy that opinion of me, or what ever elfc he fhall 
 be plealed toentertaine, and am farre better content 
 with this his opinion of my Tbeakneffe , then with that 
 which followes of my pride, for he adds, That I can - A > C ’f 
 not pr iVe any Errour or Superjlition to be in the Tfimane 
 (felpton, but by pref urning , Tbith intolerable pride, to make 
 my jelfe or fame of my fedowes to be Iudge of ControVer- 
 jies , and by taking Authority to cenfure all to be Super - 
 fit non and Errour too , which futes not V?ith my fancy , aU 
 though it be generally held , or praclifed by the V mV erf aU 
 (Jhurch, Which (faith he) in S, AuguTHnes judgement is 
 
 C c c mofl 
 
 3 / 
 
a§ - 33 - 
 
 §.26. I. 
 Cf II. 
 
 b c J J r4ponittir 
 Script nr a y &c. 
 
 S. An «.L.*.de 
 
 Bfipt.conr.Do~ 
 
 Kfit.C .3. 
 
 c §. 51. Nu.%' 
 A. C,p. 6 $- 
 
 ^Cp> 73 - 
 
 d •?. Aug, 
 
 jfi8. 
 
 • 39 . 
 
 mojl infolent madnejje. Whatnot prove any Superjiition- 
 any Errour at %ome, but by r Tride , and that Intolerable * 
 Truly l would to God C.Iaw my hearty and all rhe 
 Tride that lodges therein. But wherein doth this Tride 
 appeare, that he cenlures me fo deeply ? Why firjl in 
 this, That I cannot prove tiny Errour or Superstition to be 
 tn the T{pmane Religion y unlefie I make my fefcor fme of 
 my feUowes ludge of (f ontr over fie s, Indeed if 1 tooke 
 this upon me, I were guilty of great Pride . But A C. 
 knoweswell, that before in this Conference, which 
 he undertakes to Anlwer, I am fo farre from making 
 myfelfeor any of my fellowes ludge tf Controverts, 
 that a 1 abfolut-ely make a lawfull and free Generali Councell 
 ludge of ControVerfies Jby ,and accordingto th: Scriptures. A nd 
 this I learned from b S>Augufl ine,xv i c h this,! bat ever the 
 Scripture is to have the prerogative above the Councell .Nay, 
 A . C. fhould remember here, that c he himlelfe taxes 
 me for givingtoo much power to a Generali Councdl , 
 and binding men to a ftritt Obedience to ic,even in Cafe 
 of Errour. And therefore lure mod innocent I am 
 of the intolerable pride, which he is pleafed to charge 
 upon me- and he, of all men, mod unfit to charge 
 it. Secondly , A. C. will have my pride appeare in this, 
 that I take Authority to cenfiire all for Errour and Super- 
 iiicion,which futes not with my own fancy .But how 
 can this poffibly be, fincc Hubmit my judgement in 
 all humility to the Scripture interpreted by the Trimi - 
 tive Church , and upon new and neceffary doubts , to the 
 judgement of a law full and free Generali CouncelE And 
 this \ do from my very heart, and do abhorre,in mat- 
 ters of Tytligion, that my own, or any private mans fan* 
 cy fhould take any place, and lead of all againft things 
 generally held or pra£ti(ed by the Vniverfall Church , 
 which, to oppofe in fuch things,is certainly (as d S.Au- 
 guftine cals it, Infolentifim* infinite, an Arteir ; of 
 
 mofl 
 
 1 
 
j7? 
 
 mo ft infolent madnejfe. Butthofc things which the 
 Church of England charges upon the %omane Tany to 
 be fuperfiitious and erroneous,, arc not held or pra&i- 
 led, in, or by the univerfall Church generally, either for 
 time or place. And now I would have A . C. confide* 
 how juftly all this may be turned upon himfelfc. For 
 he hath nothing to pretend , that there are not groffe 
 Superftitions and Eriodrs in the omane ferfwafeon , un- 
 leltc by intolerable pride he will make himfelfe and his 
 Party Iudge of QontroVerfies^ as in cflfcd he doth, for he 
 will be judged by none but the Pope , and a Councell of 
 his ordering ) or unleffe he will take Authority ro free 
 from Superflition and Errour whatfoever futrs with his 
 fancy , though it be even Superflition it felfe , and run 
 erode to what hath been generally held in th tCatholike 
 Church of Ckritt ; Yca 3 t hough to do fo,be,in S.Auguftines 
 judgement, mojl infolent madnefte. And^.C. fpake in 
 this mod: properly, when he called it taking of Authority > 
 
 For the tBijbop and Church of ome have in this particu- 
 lar of judging ControVerfies, indeed taken that Authority to 
 themfelves, which neither Chrift , nor his Church Catho* 
 like did ever give them. Here the Conference ended 
 with this Conclufion. ; 
 
 And as I hope God hath given that Lady mercy: lo Num. j: 
 
 I heartily pray, that he willbe pleated to give all ofyou 
 . a Light of his Truth, and a Love to it, that you may 
 no longer be made Inftruments of the Tope’s boundlefle 
 Ambition, and this mod unchrillian * brainc-fick de- £§• 33* Mu fc 
 vice, T hat in all QontroVerJies of the Faith he is infallible , 
 and that by way of Infpiration and Trophecie in the Condit- 
 ion y>kich he gives: To the due Confidcration of 
 which, and God's mercy in Chrift , I leave you.‘ 
 
 To this (fonclujion of the Conference between me Num 
 and the lefuite } A. C.layes not much: But that which 
 he doth fay , is either the felfe fame which he hath 
 Ccc % ' J faid 
 
3 8o 
 
 §* 5 ?* 
 
 /aid already , or els is quite mftakm in the bufinefle 
 A.c.f.ji' That which he hath jaid already , is this • That in mat- 
 ters of Faith ype are to fubmit our judgements to fuch Ve- 
 ctors and Taflors , as by Vifible Continual l Succefiion , with- 
 out change > brought the Faith downe from thrift and his 
 t^ipofllesjto theje our day es, and (had fo carrie it to the end 
 of theyporld. Jlnd that this Succefiion is not found in any 
 other Qhurch differing in Doftrine from the Romane 
 a §.57.zv#.^4. Church. Now to this i have given a full An[wcr*alrea- 
 dy , and therefore will not trouble the Reader with 
 needleffe and troublefome repetition. Then he brings 
 certaine places of Scripture to prove thcTope’s Infalli- 
 bility. But to all thefe places I have likewife anfwercd 
 * §.i$. 2V*,5. b before. And therefore A.C. needed not to repeat 
 them againe, as if they had been unanfwerable- 
 N u m . 7 . One Place of Scripture onely %A.C . had not urged 
 
 before, either for proofe of this Continued Vifible Sue - 
 ce fl° n > or for the Topes Infallibility. Nor doth A. C. di~ 
 c Ephef. 4.11. ftin&ly fet down by which of the 
 
 d Pontificatus Summu5^ ; /er^ pofituse/f 1 -ii • rr»L r*i 
 
 ab isipoftolo in ilhs verbis Eph.q. n.c? tWO heC Will ptOVC it« The Place 
 
 iniiUscUrioribus, 1. Cor. 1 i.n%.jpfcpo- is c Ephef 4. Chrifl of tending gave 
 
 «SKf555&fC&& * *• *!#*• 
 
 Pontificatum. And he gives an excellent finis S-UMgeliJls 5 fottlg fflftors and 
 realon for it. Squidtm fimmtnuftM Teac h ers &c. fir the edification oftbc 
 
 fedetiam aliis Apoftotis. Ibid. So belike tburch. NOW it he do mean tO prOVC 
 
 by this Reafon die Apoftle d'otli cleareiy t h e Pope’s InfiEMityby this place, 
 exprelie the Popedome fitzzule all the reft • 1 • A a 11 tj j rA 1 >r* 
 
 of the Apofiles had as much Ecclelialti- tn hlS PaltOrall ludgem^nt. 1 1 lily 1 
 
 call Power, as s. fetor hr - .But then SeU doc not fee how this canpofsibly 
 
 Urmine would falve it up with this Jhat 1 r it « i d ChriZh awe 
 
 this Power is given Petro , ut Ordinario OC v^OileCteu tnence. LvVlSt g 2 VC 
 
 ‘Pafieri, cut fuccederetur, aliu verb tan- ibmc tO be ApofileS fot the Edifi- 
 
 cation of his Church: Therefore 
 
 Ibid, but this is raeere Begging of the 
 
 Queilion, and will never be granted un- S.PetCY ,&nd all his SuCCefoUTS ar ?in- 
 to him. And in the meane time, we have fiHible in their Paftorall Iudgn.tllt. 
 
 That the Supreme Ecciefia/Hcaii Power And it he meane to prove the Con- 
 was notin S . geter alone ' 9 but in all the timed Vifible Succefiion > Vphich he 
 
 —■ fa ’ ith 
 
§, 3 3i 
 
 t •* <■» • » , 
 
 faith, is to he found m no Church hut the there's a lit- 
 
 tle more [hew , but to no more purpofe. A little more 
 (hey? ;Becaufe it is added t yrerje rj. That the Apoftles , fEpM ij. 
 andtfdropbets &c. f hall continue at their Tborke (and that 
 mull needs be by fucceflion ) till we all meet in Vnity and 
 perfection of drift* But to no more purpofe.V or tis not laid 
 thatthey 3 or their Succeflors ihould Continue at this 
 their workc in a Perfonalfuninterrupted SucceJJion in any 
 one Particular Church y % "mane or other. Nor eve r 
 will A. C. bee able to proove that fuch a Succeffion is 
 neceflary in any one particular place. And if he could, 
 yet his owne words tell us ? the Perfonail Succeffion is 
 nothing, if the Faith be not brought dolbne without change 
 from (jbriji and his Apoftles to this day, and jo to the end of vf.c.py^ 
 the Ttorld. Now here’s a pecce of cunning too. The Faith 
 brought doTiw unchanged. For if A . C meanc by the Faith y 
 the Creed , and that in Letter f tis true, the Church of 
 S^owehath received and brought downe the Faith un- 
 changed from Chrijl and his Apoftles to thefe our 
 dayes. But then tis apparently falfc. That no Church 
 differing from the %pmaaie in Dodrine hath kept 
 that Faith unchanged ,and that by a vifible and conti- 
 nued Succeffion. For the Greek Church differs from 
 the ^omane in Dodrine, and yet hath fo kept that 
 Faith unchanged. But if he meaneby the Faith unchang- 
 ed ,and yet brought down in a continuall vifible Suc- 
 ceflion^notonly the Gredin Letter, but in Senfe too; 
 
 And not that only,but all theDodrinall Points about 
 the Faith , which have beene Determined in all fuch 
 Councels as the prefent Church of %ome allowes : ( * as * A ^ ^ 
 mofl: certainly he dothfomeane 3 and’tis the Contro - BelJarm.\*S 
 Verjie betweene ns:) then’tis moil: certaine, and mod mt * eft Ccnfpu 
 apparenttoany underflanding man that reads Anti- 
 quity with an impartiall eve, that a Vifible Continuall Antupuk.L.fde 
 Succeffion of Dodors and Faftors have not brought ff 01 " Zcdes.9 
 . ? ~ C c c 3 down 15 
 
382, 
 
 
 downe the Faith in this fcnfc from Chrift, and his 
 Apoftles to thefe dayes of ours in the pj mane Qmrcb . 
 And that I may not bee thought to fay , and not to 
 proved give Inftance.And with this, that if A.C. or any 
 Iefuite can prove , That by a c Vijible Continued Sue - 
 ceftion from ChriU and his Apoftles to this day y either 
 Tranfub (Initiation in the Eucharift. Or the Euchari/i in om 
 kinde. Or Purgatory. Or worfhip of Images. Or the Inten- 
 tion of the Trie ft of Ffeceftity in Paptifme. Or the Power of 
 the Pope oyer a Generali Councell. Or his Infallibility with , 
 or without it. Or his power to Depof ? Princes . Or the Pub- 
 like Prayers of the Church in an unknoypne tongue • with ii+ 
 yers other Points have beene fo taught, I, for my part, 
 will give the Caufe. Befidc, for Succeffm in the genc- 
 rall I fhall fay this. Tis agreathappineffe where it 
 may be had ‘ZHfible and Continued ? and a great Con- 
 queftover the Mutability of this prefent world. But I 
 do not findc any one of the Ancient Fathers that makes 
 Locall , Perfonall , Vifible , and Continued Succefion y 
 a Necejfiry Signe or Mark of the true Church in any one 
 
 place. Andwhcxc^Vincentius^Li- 
 a Vm.ti r.cont.IUr.c.4. rinenfis cals for Mntiauity , Vniyer - 
 
 * Hac Ordtnttiene & Succefstone ea qwt f • . * ' 
 
 eftab ApoftoiisinEccieftaTrAditioy&vc- JaUty y and Lonjenty as great [Notes 
 
 ritatis prtccnUtio pervenit ufyne adws. of Trilth , hce hath no t One Word 
 
 of And for char great 
 
 Scciefta ab Apojtolis ufque mnefit con- place in * Iremus , where t hat An- 
 
 w v,nUU.htnL. Z . ^ p^ rcckoni £ Succeffion 
 tAdvrrj'tUr.Cc 3. , . . 1 r • 
 
 of the® iftopsof Pome to Eleutkenus (who fate m 
 his time) and faith, That this is a moft full and ample 
 Proof e, or Oftenfion, Vivificatricem Fidcm, that the 
 > r . " Liyin? and Lift-nyinz Faith is from 
 
 f Perhanc SHCcefiicncm eonfmdi omnts 7 * m . ' n • 1 r t - j 1 
 
 H*re tic cs. Bdlarmin. L. 4 . aeNotis £<- the ApoHles to this day Conferyed ■ and 
 cicf.c. 8 .§-i. There's no luch word delivered in Truth ; And of which 
 
 — — irtn * fiS * Place t Sellar mine boafts fo much ; 
 
 Moft manifeft it is in the very fame Place, that 
 
 * Iran ms 
 
' ’T- ■■ 
 
 O -s 
 
 cum illis Bcclefiis tApoftolicis , Matrici i 
 bus ^Originalibus Fidei ccnjpiretFUcritat . 
 deput artdam. Terful, dt prafcript. adverj . 
 di di et . c . 2 r . E a left a po/i cr tores non tnt «• 
 Apefi o lie & deputantur pro corfanpuiL 
 mtdt e Dottrin&Jbid. c. 3 2. Ecclefta non 
 tn Fariet ibus corf (Ik &c. Fcclcfiu ant cm 
 illic oral , u bifida verst erat . S. Hicron 
 in 7 fal. 13 3. 
 
 S'. 3 p. 
 
 % Imr£US flood dt much Upon the SuCCcf- * Teflmomum bis per hi bent qua fmt in 
 fion of the Churches then tn Afia , and 
 
 of Smyrna ( though that no prime Jpo- & £re c. 3 • Coaftat omnem DoFirumm qu« 
 Jiolicall Church ) where Poly carpus 
 fate Bifoop 7 as of the Succefsion at 
 <]{ome. By which it is moft manb 
 feft, that it is not Terjonall Succefsion 
 only, and that tyedtoone Place, 
 that the Fathers meant., but they 
 taught,that the Faith was delivered 
 over by Succeffton injome places or other ffcill to their pre- 
 ient time- And fo doubtleflefhall be, till Time be no 
 more. 1 FyfThe Faith ; But no: every Opinion, true, or 
 falfe,that in trad of time (hall cleave to the Faith And 
 to the Faith it ftfe , and all its Fundamentals can (hew 
 as good , and full a Succefhon as you • And we pre- 
 tend no orherwife to it then you do/ave that We take 
 in the Greeks which you do not. Only we reject your 
 grofle fupcrfticions 3 to which you can (hew no 
 Succeifion from the Apcftles , either at %ome or clfe- 
 where,much lefsany one uninterrupted And tberfore 
 he might have held his peace that fay bjt is evident that e , ... ^ 
 
 the T{oman Catholike Church only hath had a Constant and tin - fi'a primis yum- 
 interrupted Succefsion of Faflors.and VoHors .and Tradition & ntt * A , n (? iS ?*~ 
 of UoEtrine from Age toAige. For molt evident itis 5 &yoivde*Apc- 
 That the Tradition of Dodrine hath received both Ddirind 
 Addition and Alteration 3 finccthe fir Fi five hundred yearcs pf otis ' £ f. m 
 
 in which t Cellar mine conftiTes,andBJe 7 bfl/maintains cle f-c .9 §• i. 
 the Churches Dodrine was ApoflolicalL ^ . 
 
 And OllwC more ? before I lea\ C ^ &Adh*nc formant frovoetbuntur kb il- 
 this Point. Moft evident it is, That Its Eccleflts , qm Ik et nullum ex Apofto* 
 the Succefsion which the Fathers ^MApnoLi^nAmh^fism^ 
 
 1 ferunt , tit multo pojtenores qu£ dentque 
 
 meant, Is not tyed to *T lace or (Per- qttvttdie inftituuni nr, t amen ineadem fide 
 ton, but ’us tycd to the Verity of Do- '•»&*"*'* &?*- 
 
 J J i id n tanturfroconfanguwitate Voctrivz.'l& m 
 
 hi fine* Foi iO lertulhaftcxp relly* cu ldcprafcript.c.^2. 
 
 Be fide 
 
 i 
 
a Succef sio nec Locorum tantum eft , nec 
 ■per for. arum, fed etiamver a & fan* Tdo- 
 ilrtncs, . Stapl Relett. C omrovcr. 1.^.4. nsf. 
 2.Notab.i. 
 
 § 39 - 
 
 Bejide the order of r Bifbops running downs ( in Succdhon) 
 from the beginning, there is required Confanguinitas Do- 
 (Slrinse, that the DoHrine be allyed in blood to that of Chrift 
 and his Apoflles. So chat if the Voclnne bee no kinne 
 to Chnfl, all the Succefsion becom cjlrangers, what 
 
 nearneflefoevcr they pre, end. And 
 * tlll f Presbjteris ohedtenhm eft qui Nrenceus fpeaks plaiher then he. We 
 
 cumEpt/eopatttf Sac cefs tone ( b^rifma ac- 7 / r / 11 
 
 ceperunt Veritaiis. lien. Lib.^.cap.^, obey tbcje Presbyters firbich toge - 
 
 ther with the Succefsion of theirBi fop- 
 ricks have received Charifma Verita- 
 tis, the gift of truth. Now Stapleton be- 
 ing prefl hard wichthefe two Au- 
 thorities ifirfi, a Confefles exprefly , 
 That Succef ion pis it is a Note of the true Church, is neither 
 a Succefsion in place only, nor of Per font only, but it ?nufl be of 
 true and found DoHrinealfo. And had hee flayed here, 
 no man could havefaid better, But then he faw well 
 hemuft quit his great Note of the Church-Succefsion • 
 That he durft not doe. Therefore he beginnes to call 
 about, ho w hee may anfwcr thefe Fathers , and yet 
 maintaine Succef sion.Secondly , therefore he tels us, That 
 that which thcle Fathers fay, do nothing weaken Sue - 
 ctfsion, but that it fliall ftill be a maineN&ff of the true 
 Qhurch ; and in that fenfe which he would have it. And 
 h - ia his Reafon is. b Becauf ? f mnd DoElrine is indivifeble from 
 nTsana eft ab true and Lai* full Succefsion. Where you fliall fee this 
 ip/a vera & ie~ ^ reat ( f or f Q hee was ) not able to Hand to him- 
 
 g ti/ *i»etivu/fa. t fclfc, when he hath forfaken Truth. For ’tis not long 
 
 one 
 
 stap Ubil after, that he tels us, That the People are led along,and 
 
 judge the DoHrine by the Tajlors 5 But when the Church 
 comes to examine, fhe judges the Paflors by their Do- 
 { Nam e p aft ore p\ r \ m% And this c he fayes is neceflary, Decauje aMan 
 
 te ft[ Sup'.* ibid, may become of a Taflor, a Wolfe. Now then let Stapleton 
 2 <ot«b. 4. . take his choife. For either a Tattor in this Succeffion 
 
 cannot become a Wolfe, and then this Propolltion’s 
 
 falle. 
 

 falie- Or els if he can y then found Doctrine is not in- 
 feparable from true and Legitimate JucceJsion : And 
 then the former Propofition’s falfe, as indeed it is. For 
 that a good P a Hour may become a Wolfe, is no newes in 
 the Ancient Story of the Church, in which are regi* 
 fired the Change of many a Great men into Heretick 
 I fparc their frames . And fince Judo* chang’d fro \ 
 an Apojlle to a Divell, S Job. 6. us no wonder to iee 
 others change from Sbepheards into J Pelves. I doubt the 
 Church is not empty of fuch Changelings at this day , 
 Yea but Stapleton will helpe all this. For he adds ; Tim 
 fuppofe thePaftors do forfake true DoBrine, yet Succefion 
 (hadfltll be a true 'Mote of the Church- Yet not every Succef- 
 fion J hut that which is Legitimate and true. Well : And 
 what is that ? Why, b That Succefsion is lawfull ffrhich is 
 of thofe PaJ}ors y which hid entire the c Unity and the Faith. 
 Where you may fee this Samfai’s haire cutoff againe. 
 For at his word lie take him. And if that onely be a 
 Legitimate Succefion which holds the Vnity and the 
 Faith entire, then the Succeflion of Paftors in the r l \p- 
 mane Church is illegitimate Tor they have had c more 
 Schifmes among them then any other Church : There- 
 fore they have not kept the unity of the Church . And 
 they have brought in grofle Superstition : Therefore 
 they have not kept the Faith entire. Now if A. C. have 
 any minde to it, he may do well to helpe Stapleton out 
 of thefe hryars y upon which he hath torne his Credit , 
 and I doubt his Confcience too,to uphold the Corruptions 
 of the Sea of Y{ome. 
 
 As for that in which he is quite miflaken , it is his 
 Inference y which is this. That 1 fhould therefore confider 
 carefully , Whether it be not more Chriftian , and lejfe braine- 
 jicke ) to think that the Pope, being S.Peters Succejfourfttoitb 
 a Generali Councell fJ?ould be Judge of ControVerJies, <src. 
 And that the Pajiorall Judgement of him fhould be accounted 
 
 D d d Infallible j 
 
 
 a Vincent. lir, 
 cont. Har. 
 
 S. loh x6.jz. 
 
 b Legit in; a ati- 
 tew eft illorum 
 Paftortm, qt*i 
 Vnitatem tenent 
 & Lidem. Stap, 
 
 ibid, 
 
 c In their owne 
 Ciironologer 0 - 
 nuphrim there 
 are Thirty ac- 
 knowledged. 
 
 N U M. 9 - 
 
l%6 
 
 * §« 2 d>. Nff. I. 
 \Patrnm & A- 
 varum noflro- 
 rum tempore , 
 panel ancle bant 
 ckcere, Papam ti- 
 le fupra Concili- 
 um. jEneas Syl- 
 vius, feu Pius 2> 
 L t i. de GeJHs 
 Coucil.BajU. Et 
 Hind imprimis 
 enpionotu t qitia 
 Bomunum Pa- 
 pam , omnes qui 
 all quo nnmero 
 [tint , Concilio 
 fubjiciunt. Ibid. 
 in fafcic. rerum 
 Expetend.fol. jf . 
 Nme autem , 
 Papam ef[e non 
 folkm fupra 
 Concilium Ge- 
 neral c, fed & V* 
 niverfam Eccle- 
 fiam. t efi propo- 
 ficio fere tie Fi- 
 de. Beliar. L. 2. 
 de Concil, c . 17. 
 §. I. 
 
 Infallible , rather then to make every man 'that can read 
 the Scripture, biter prefer of Scripture,, Decider of Contro - 
 verfies , (Controller of Generali Come els, and Judge of his 
 Judges: Or to have no Judge at all of Qontr over jies of 
 Faith, but permit every man to believe cu he l ill. xAs if 
 there wen no Infallible certainty of Faith to be expeded on 
 earth , which were , inflead of cne f tvbig Faith , to induce a 
 Babilonicall Confufion of fo many faiths y cu fancies ; Or no 
 true Chriflian F aith at all . From which Svils, S sc eet ‘jefus 
 deliver m ! I have Confiderea of this very carefully. 
 But this Inference fuppofes that which I never granted, 
 nor any Proteflant that 1 yet know ; Namely, That if 
 I deny the ope to be Judge of Control erf es , I muft by 
 and by either leave this fupr erne Judicature in the hands 
 and power of tvery private man that can but read the 
 Scripture,* or els allow no Judge at all, and foletin all 
 manner of Confufion. No, God forbid I fhould 
 grant either : For I have exprefly * declared, That the 
 Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Qburch y and a Law- 
 ful! and free (Jenerall Councell determining according to 
 thde, is Judge of ControVerfies : And th at no private man 
 whatfoever, is, or can be ludge of thefe. Therefore 
 is quite miftaken (and 1 pray God it be not wil- 
 fully, to beguile poore Ladies, and other their wcake 
 adherents, with ieenaing to fay fomewhat) I fay 5 quite 
 miflaken, to inferre, that I am either for a private 
 ludge , or for no ludge $ for I utterly dilclaime both , and 
 that as much, if not more then he , or any Romanifi } 
 who ever he be. But thefe things in this paflage 1 can- 
 not f wallow. Fir ft, Thai the 'Tope with a Generali 
 Co uncell Jhonld be ludge j for the Tope in ancient (Jouncels 
 never had more power then any the other Tatriarchs: 
 Precedency, perhaps for Orders fake, and other refpe< 5 ts, 
 he had. Nor had the Tope any Hcgative voice againft 
 the refl in point of difference* t No nor was he held 
 
 fuperiour 
 
* ftfuum hoc tempore mil ts fit 
 fama eft) quifacras Liter as dtdicerit >qud 
 front e atiquis ear Km docere audebit, quod 
 non di dicer it ? Arnulpb. in Concil. r Rhe- 
 menfi. Nam cum conftet p lures eorum 
 ade'o illiterates ejfe, ut Cjrammaticam pe- 
 ritus ignorarent , qui fit fit S Herat Lite- 
 rs interpret ari pfsint? Aiphoni. a Ca- 
 itro. L i adverf.HiCreJ . c .4.. versus medi- 
 um. Edit. T arif. 15 34 * ( ^ or k° r h that at 
 Antwerpe^yfn. I % 56'. and thatar Pa- 
 rk f, *An. 1571. have becne in Enrvato- 
 rie.) And iucb an Ignorant as tbele was 
 Pope John the feure and twentieth, Plaj- 
 na in Vita ejut. Et § 3 3 . Nu. 6 . 
 
 fuperiour to the Qouncell. Therefore the ancient Church 
 never accounted or admitted him a Judges no, not 
 with a Coi*ncell } much lefTe without it. Secondly , it 
 will not downe with me, that his 
 Taft or all Judgement fhould be Infal- 
 lible • cfpccially iincefomcof them 
 have been zs^Ignorant^s many that 
 can but read the Scripture. Thirdly , 
 
 I cannot admit this ncithcr(though 
 hce doe moft cunningly thereby 
 abufe his Readers:) That any thing 
 hath been laid by me, out of which 
 it can juftly be inferred, That there s 
 no Infallible certainty of Faith to bee 
 expefled on earth. For there is moft 
 
 hifallible certainty of K, that is, of Conciii»mgmer*ic, „cc 
 
 the Foundations of it in Scripture s*mmui‘Pomifexpottft farm Amin- 
 
 and the Crstds. And ’ns fo cl.ard, 
 
 delivered there, as that it needs no thoUds , de quibus erat dubium, &e. h. 
 
 Judge at all to fie upon it, for the Ar- 
 
 2 /c/mhemfclveS. And fo entire a no(ham>& nequaquam ex voluntate ku- 
 *\Body is this one Faith in it felfe as f Dcn f nr i non P°J e f p™+ 
 
 1 1 +T*t/ 1 rt 1 > I 1 9 rr tl J ex > neC Ecclefade After none non verb. 
 
 that the T Whole Church ( much Jefle veram needenon falja fa If am facer c ; 
 th cTope ) hath not power to adde H * no * ? oteFicie * on CathoHca cMoli - 
 
 * . 1 . , . cam facere, needenon Heretic A Hareti» 
 
 one Article to it, nor lea'Ve to dettabb cam. Et tuco non poteft novum a rticu- 
 
 any one the lea ft from it. But when Lum f a fcre t nec ex irticulum Fidei toller c a 
 
 r ■ r L \ Jjhioniam ftcut Vt ritates f uholica a / A 
 
 Control erjies ante about the mean- CjUe 0 mni approbate Ecciefi* ex naJk 
 ing of the Articles , or Super ftruflures rei fa nt immutab.ics , & immutabiiitir 
 
 upon them , which are JWW 
 
 about the Faith , not the Fa th it fdfc que omnireprobatione damnrtione fmt 
 (unlefle where they be immediate ***«%** <>*»** reprobatwne (am 
 
 ' r \ 1 7 1 1 • , Hare/es reput and*, &c. Er poitca. Pa, 
 
 (^oniequences J then both in and tet ergo quid null a Veritas eff Catholic a 
 
 of thefe a 1 Latcfdl and free Generali " “ppnbm^e EccUf u vet Gab. 
 
 ^ II 1 • • ^ Bizl.tn $. Sent. Dtft. 25 . q, unica. Art. 
 
 founcell , determining according ^.versus finem, ‘ 
 
 to Scripture , is the Deft Iudge on a §.2^. A 7 ». i. 
 
 Ddd 1 earth. 
 

 B 
 
 Pfal. 90.1©. 
 
 ~ntf.89.1jfc 
 
 / : . . 
 
 earth. But then fuppoie uncertainty inlome of theft 
 
 fuperjlruttures, it can never be thence concluded, That 
 there is no Infallible certainty of the Faith it felfe. But 
 ’tistime toend,efpecially for me, that havefb Many 
 Things of Weight lying upon me, and difabling me 
 from thefe Polemicke Dijcourfes • befide the Burden of 
 Jixty yiveyeares complete, which drawes on apace to, 
 the period let by the Trophet DaVid , Pfaly o. and to the 
 Time, that I muft goe, and give God , and Chrijl an Ac- 
 count of the Talent cpmmittcd to my Charge . in 
 which God, for Chrijl lefus fake,be mcrcifull to me, who 
 knowes, that however in many Weakneffes , yet [ 
 have with a faithfull and fingle heart (bound to his 
 free Grace for it) laboured the Meeting, the BleiTed 
 Meeting of Truth and Peace in his Church , and 
 which God , in his own good time, will (I 
 hope) effect, To Him be all Ho- 
 nour, and Praifi for 
 ever. Amen. 
 
 FIA(IS. . 
 
 
 * 
 
 0 
 
 & 
 
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