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Anke Har Sith laf CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY ui House Calendar No. 357 62p CoNnGRESS - REpPoRT Gi. Session, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES | j No. 1336 REPORT IN THE MATTER OF THE INVESTIGATION OF THE WHITE EARTH RESERVATION SITUATED IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA WITH TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY TAKEN AND EXHIBITS OFFERED FROM JULY 25, 1911 TO MARCH 28, 1912 (IN TWO VOLUMES) VOLUME 2 PRESENTED BY-MR. GRAHAM From Tue CoMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT January 16, 1913.—Referred to the House Calendar, and ordered to be printed, with illustrations w=” PRESENTED TO HARTWICK COLLE “. ONEONTA, N. Y. Seo ie! aed J. ae WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1913 GE U. S. Congress. Hovse. CommT tex “Or? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. FRANK W.MONDELL, Wyoming. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. OSCAR CALLAWAY, Texas. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota. Joun F, McCarron, Clerk. SUBCOMMITTEE. JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. FRANK W.MONDELL, Wyoming. I WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Tuurspay, Fesruary 15, 1912. MORNING SESSION, Appearances as previously. Mr. Granam. Mr. Beaulieu, I want you to call all the short wit- nesses you have and let us get rid of them. They have been hanging around for a couple of weeks, and for very little testimony in some instances. I wish you would call every one of these and let us get rid of them. Joun W. Car, sworn, testified as follows: Examined by Mr. Granam: Q. Give your full name.—A. Quay-se-good or John W. Carl. Q. Where do you live?—A. I live on the White Earth Reservation. Q. Have you lived there your entire life; that is, has it been your home?—A. That has been my home during my entire life. Q. What part of the reservation do you live on?—A. The town- ship known as Pembina. Q. Is there any village in that township?—A. There is the village of Mahnomen, the county seat of Mahnomen County. Q. Have you lived in the city or town of Mahnomen?—A. No, sir. Q. How far from it?—A. I lived just on the outskirts of it. Q. In the suburbs, so to speak?—A. Yes. Q. What is your occupation?—A. I am an agriculturist. Q. How much land do you farm?—A. Well, I farmed out one farm of 120 acres, and another 55 acres, and another 40 acres. Q. A very distinguished American defined an agriculturist to be a man who makes money in town and has a farm in the country where he spends the money he makes in town. Does that define your situation accurately ?—A. It appears to do so. Q. Do you farm all this land under your own superintendency ?— A. No, sir. Q. How many teams do you employ?—A. I have two teams of my own, and I had four other teams. Q. How much of your lands is cultivated, actually?—A. Well, the number of acres that I mentioned, 120 acres in one place, 55 acres in another, and 40 in another. : ; Q. That is all actually cultivated?—A. That is what is actually cultivated. . Q. Are you part Indian blood?—A. Yes, sir. 1615 1516 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. How much Indian blood?—A. I am more than half; I mean less than half. I am more white than I am Indian. Q. How much of this land did you inherit or take as allotments?— A. Just 80 acres of this land I speak of. ; Q. Is any of the land that you bought still yours?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What is it worth an acre, fairly ?—A. Well, I sold some of that land for $12.50 an acre. Q. When?—A. A year ago last March. : Q. Well, in a general way, is that about the fair and usual price paid for land in that vicinity?—A. Yes, sir. : : Q. What is the highest price you have known to be paid for agri- cultural land up there?—A. $35 an acre. : Q. What was there peculiar in it that made it sell that high?—A. It was located near town, and the northern boundary of the land was on the Rice River, and it was almost as level as that table there; it had good drainage and it was considered to be the finest piece of land in Mahnomen County. Q. In addition to that, its location added to its value?—-A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Carl, are you a college graduate?—A. I would have been graduated from the Kansas University had I not left school two months before the end of the term. I left on account of the news that I received that my mother was sick up here in Minnesota, and I had to leave school. _Q. Did you ever attend the University of Minnesota?—A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long a time?—A. One year. Q. And this Kansas college that you speak of, what is it?—A. It is the State University of Kansas. Q. How long did you attend there?—A. Two years. Mr. Georcr. At Lawrence? The Wirnrss. At Lawrence. Q. Did you follow any particular course of studies or did you take a mixed course?—A. I took a professionel course. Q. What profession?—A. Law. Q. Are you a licensed lawyer?—A. No, sir; I am not. Q. Aside from your agricultural interests, are you engaged in any other business enterprise?—A. I have bought some land and sold some land; that is, up to last year. Q. In buying and selling land, do you act alone or in connnection with other parties?—A. I act alone. Q. Have you any land off the reservation?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Where?—A. I have some lands in Florida. Q. Productive?—A. Not that I know of. Q. Are you interested in any banking enterprise?—A. No, sir. a Or any other busines enterprise other than agriculture?2—A. O, sir. Mr. Grauam. Proceed, Mr. Beaulieu. Iixamined By Mr. Brauuiev: Q. Will you give the history of your life from your earliest recol- lection?—A. Yes, sir. I have no recollection of my birth, but I was born in the spring of 1872, out here on the reservation. My band of Indians was the Ottertail Pillagers. Their home was around Battle Lake and Ottertail Lake, but they had their annuities WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1517 from the agency at White Earth, and used to go to draw their annui- ties all the way up from there, and it kept my people moving all the time to get their annuities; that is, they would come up in the fall and during the winter they would move back; they would move just a little distance and camp where they could hunt and fish. In 1875 the Chippewa Indians at White Earth consented to allow the Indians from Ottertail to live with them and share with them in land matters, but not in anything else, as far as I know the history. I was 4 years old when I first attended school. Q. How did you happen to attend school?—A. Well, when we moved from Rice Lake in the fall—we were making rice there—I heard something that sounded very peculiar to me. I didn’t know what it was; a noise made by some living creature, and I proceeded to investigate what it was. The next morning I woke up early and TI went toward the place where the sound came from the day before, and during the forenoon I was traveling through the brush and 1 could hear that noise, that sound, and just about the middle of the - day I came to the place, and it happened to be a schoolhouse, and the ' noise that I heard was the school bell, and one of the young ladies grabbed hold of me and asked me if 1 was coming to school, and I said “ Yes; I am coming to school.” Q. How were you dressed then?—A. I was dressed just like any Indian child dresses in the summer time. That is, they wore no shirt and no trousers, no shoes and no hat, and I presume that I was a very amusing spectacle among the children that were dressed like the white children. Well, I was told to imitate everything that the teacher did. I presumed that would mean what the teacher said, and I understood that I was to do everything that I saw, and when I saw the school children laugh I joined in the laugh, and the more they laughed the harder I laughed, and that was my first day at school. _ Q. Did the teacher speak to you in your own language?—A. Well, she did when she told me I had better go out; that I was causing too much commotion. ; ; Mr. Gzorcr. When did she invite you to come in? The Witness. She spoke to me in English and I remember that I ' repeated what she said. She told me that I had better go along out and come in again. This teacher is Mrs. Theodore Beaulieu now. Q. Did you continue to attend school from that time on?—A, I ran away and they came after me and they talked to me and told me what schooling was, and I remember Mr. Clement Beaulieu, Mr. Gus Beauliew’s brother, was the principal. He took one of these pens while I was crying, put it behind my ear, and took a looking-glass and said to me, “Some day you will look like a white man with a pen over your ear, you will be able to write and you will be able to read. the English language,” and that thought consoled me a little and I stopped. crying, and I went to school and I didn’t run away any more for a long while. ; 5 Q. You were, in fact, a wigwam Indian?—A. I was born in a wigwam and my home was a wigwam until I was big enough to build a house for my mother. _ ; Q. You attended school continually from that time on until you left and returned to White Earth Reservation?—A. Yes, sir. 1518 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. Now, after you returned to the White Earth Reservation, what did you do?—A. After my return to the White Earth Reservation I took notice of things around about, especially I took notice of what I was to do to make a living. Q. You have been a county officer, have you not?—A. Oh, yes, yes. Q. What office did you hold?—A. I was county auditor. Q. Which county ?—A. Mahnomen County. ae Q. Have you been reasonably successful in your life; that is, in providing for yourself and making a living?—A. Well, I think I have. That is, I have no complaints to make for want of anything; but I think if a man is satisfied with the way he is living he is successful. Q. What do you attribute that to?—A. To my being thrown upon my own responsibility and resources at an early age. Q. You never drank anything, did you; you don’t use intoxi- cants?—A. Well, I have drunk some liquor in my day, but not to drink it in the way a great many people do; that is, I probably have taken a drink of whisky once in two or three months, or something like that. Q. You don’t drink any now?—A. No, sir. I found out that it didn’t do me any good and it was kind of expensive luxury and I made up my mind that it didn’t do me any good anyway. o When an Indian drinks he usually goes to extremes?—A. Yes; usually. Q. In fact, it used to be a custom for an Indian to drink at least twice a year?—A. Yes. Me GrauHam. Do you mean they take a drink or a drunk twice a year ? Mr. Beauuisu. A regular drunk twice a year was the custom. Q. Mr. Carl, do you remember anything in regard to the condi- tions just prior to the passage of the Clapp Act in 1906?—A. I re- member the conditions prior to 1889 and up to the present time. _ Q. I wish you would tell it in your own wav.—A. Prior to 1889 the Indians on the White Earth Reservation were very prosperous, to my way of thinking. The Indians farmed; they raised a lot of garden stuff; they raised small grain, and whenever they wanted flour they would go to a grist mill that was upon the White Earth Reservation, and they had plenty of beef and were never in want of anything; but when the law of 1889, which was enacted for the relief and civilization of the Chippewa Indians, was presented to them for their ratification or approval, or acceptance, they were told that the Government would feed them, give them stock while farm- ing, and implements and money, and assist them in every way until they were capable of making their own living; and about that same time the men with western horses came into this country, and, as the Indians were anxious for fast going, they offered their cattle for these horses. The trading of the cattle and the promise of the Gov- ernment that they would take care of these-Indians until they were capable of making their own living seemed to put a stop to their in- dustry; that is, they stopped working and simply looked to the Gov- ernment to fulfill their promises. Of course, the promises were never fulfilled. The allotments were taken under the terms of that law and the Chippewa Commission was established to make these WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1519 allotments, and then, after they took their allotments, there were very few Indians that knew their allotments; they never knew where they were. Some of them didn’t even know that they had lands, and they never made any use of it. In 1905 there was a request by a mixed-blood Indian that a bill should be introduced in Congress by Halvon Steenerson, a Representative from the ninth district, to have removed the restrictions placed upon the Indian allottees, or, in other words, let the Indian have his land in fee simple, give him his land and give him everything that the Government might be willing to give, because they were now capable of managing their own affairs. Mr. Grorce. That was your opinion at that time? , The Wrrness. That was my opinion. I am the Indian that had written Steenerson asking that this should be done. The bill was introduced in Congress and passed by the House, but was afterwards defeated by the conference committee. The people upon a little edge of the reservation were interested and they took a little more interest in it, and that same year in the summer a drainage commis- sion was held at the city of Crookston and the whole Minnesota delegation was present. A committee was appointed from the village of Mahnomen to wait upon the Congressmen and Senators and pre- sent this proposition to them. At that time they were assured that Congress would do what it could the coming season to relieve the Chippewa Indians; that is, to grant their request; and this is what finally led to the Clapp amendment of 1906, which I think was one of the best things that was ever enacted by Congress for the benefit of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota. I say this on account of what I have known before that there was a vast country lying here in idleness. There were no people to cultivate it, there were no people to improve it, there were no people to get anything out of the earth. But after the passage of this bill the Indians sold their lands; they bought houses and they bought furniture, and they bought some of the things that make their homes comfortable, which they were not able to do before. The white man came here and they started farming; set an example that was needed by the Indian for many years, and they were working and making a living. In 1909 some inspectors camé here, Mr. Linnen and Mr. Moorhead. They finally wound up the commission. Mr. Moorhead came here during the winter. I came down here to Detroit in March and I noticed a man talking down around the depot, and he says, “We have spent thou- sands and thousands here to protect these people, and you white men give them whisky, and take everything away from them.” And I said to him, “ Who are you and what is your position, where you spend so much money?” And he said, “I am one of the men from Washington to look after the Indians.” And I said, “I am an Indian and I am glad to meet you.” And he gave me his card, and wrote down his address and told me he was comin, back here, and he would bring a very smart man with him to make the investiga- tion, and he said he would like to meet me, and I said I would be glad to assist him in every way I possibly could in his investigation. Q. Who was he?—A. Mr. Moorhead. Q. Did he bring back that smart man 2—(No answer.) Mr. Grawam. So you were talking to Mr. Moorhead? 1520 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Wirness. Yes; I was telling Mr. Moorhead I would be glad to assist him in any way I could. Later that year I came to Detroit; there was to be a council at Pine Point, and I wanted to know what would be going on at Pine Point, and I took a team from Detroit and drove over and got over there in the afternoon. I found that the inspectors were holding a council with the Indians in the school building, and I went and looked in the door; didn’t see any signs of welcome so I turned back and went and sat on the front porch. The windows were down on the east side of the building; it was a hot summer day, and I pretty soon saw one of the Indian policemen shut- ting the windows, and I remarked to a young man that was with me, I said, “These people don’t want us to hear what is going on,” and I said, “I would like to hear what is going on,” and he said, “Well, I don’t believe you will have a chance to hear anything.” When their session was over I went and shook hands with Mr. Moor- head, and I was introduced to Mr. Linnen, and we came out and talked, and I made report to Mr. Linnen as to some minors having sold their land; a young girl had come to me and told me that she had gotten $5 and she had signed a receipt for it, and afterwards looked it up and it was a warranty deed. I reported it to him and he told me I should make a written statement and send it to him. I never did that, because I could see that by the attitude that was taken, I didn’t think there was any need of making a report. And Mr. Linnen and Mr. Lufkins and I were standing outside the door there, and I asked Mr. Linnen what procedure he was going to take, and Mr. Linnen said that the conditions were in terrible shape. I told him I didn’t doubt it. And he said, “I am going to tie up this country for an indefinite time, and some of the Government officials, who have been Government officials, are going to land in State prison.” I had heard who was the Government official who was going. to land in the State prison, and I said, “Mr. Linnen, these lands: have been sold by the Indians, and are you going to be able to tie up the land.” And he said, “ It doesn’t make any difference, I am going to do it. I am going to do it now.” And that was all I cared about that investigation; I never went to it any more, except that I went down to White Earth to find out for my own benefit. A story had got to me that the chairman had made the remark that I was the most disreputable man on the reservation, and I decided to make an investigation. I went down and went into where they were hold- ing their council, and I said, “I am down here to find out what has been said about me,” for my own personal knowledge. Mr. Grorcr. At a council, do you mean?’ The Wirness. They were having a meeting with Mr. Moorhead and Mr. Linnen in the Indian agency building, and I told them what I had heard, and Mr. Moorhead got up and he said: “ We have not said anything about you.” Well, I told him that I was glad I was misinformed, because I had considered what I had heard said about me as slanderous and I would have had the sheriff there with papers before 24 hours. That is probably the only time I ever at- tended any of their proceedings or councils—these two times: and the statements made by Mr. Linnen the other day, that I had gone to Beaulieu to their squaw dance and brought liquor there with my crowd was absolutely false, because. I never attended any of their Indian dances. I have heard of other councils; I think it was be- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1521 tween White Earth and Pine Point, and they may have—they had gone and camped out in the woods some place and had hearings. I never went to them. The general talk at these councils was that if the Indians would declare themselves full bloods and get proof that they were full-blood Indians their lands would be gotten back for them. That talk got so strong that even my sister, Mrs. Star Bad Boy, in company with her husband, who is an Indian police- man, came to me one day and said: “ You are going to be placed on the regular Indian list ”—that is, the regular full-blood Indian list, because our mother practiced the “ grand medicine” rites; and any person whose ancestors had practiced the “grand medicine” rites would be considered a full-blood Indian. Now, whether they got that information from any of the men working under Mr. Burch I could not say, but it was said that they were promised by the Gov- ernment men that this should be done. Now, going back to the Clapp Act, or to the allotment of 1904— that is, to the Steenerson Act—notices were issued by the agent post- ing typewritten statements in conspicuous places, and, I think, notice was also given in the newspapers—in the Tomahawk—and the In- dians had lots of time to go and make their selections. Anyhow, I had heard a great many of them speak of it. In fact, some of the Indian chiefs went out in the woods to look over some land. On Easter Sunday morning I was over to R. G. Beaulieu’s house; there were so many people at White Earth that I had no chance to get a room in the hotel. Mr. R. G. Beaulieu and I were pretty good friends, so he invited me to come to his house. About 7.30 I came down to the hotel for breakfast, and as I went by. the agency office T saw Margaret Lynch and Florence Beaulieu and Libbie Miller and Mrs. John Lynch and John Lynch and one of the Louzon girls at the entrance of the agency building, outside of the fence. I asked them what they were doing, and they said they were going to take their allotments; and Mr. Lynch was walking up and down acting as kind of a bodyguard; and I said that there were no allotments to be made until 9 o’clock to-morrow. “ Well, we are going up here anyhow and get our first chance.” I thought they were only doing that to amuse themselves and I went over to the hotel and when I came back a few more people had come in and by 2 o’clock there were perhaps 75 or 100 people lined up and the line was formed in that way until the next day. : Mr. Gus Beaulieu and myself went into his office, and at the re- quest of the Indians, we made the applications in triplicate; one for the Indian agent, one to the Chippewa Commission, because we didn’t know whether the Indian agent would have authority to make the allotments under the present law; so we wanted to be sure; one copy to the Indian agent, one to the Commissioner, and the third copy we kept ourselves. In the morning, the line still formed there, and Chief May-zhuc-e-ge-shig, who is a recognized chief of the White Earth Indians, came there, and I came along with him on the sidewalk and he wanted to go and see the agent and the chief of police. Well, Lynch’s brother-in-law was there and he pushed him back, and by that time Mr. Gus Beaulieu came along, and I said, “Tsn’t it a shame that our old chief, one of the men who selected this reservation, should be pushed away from getting over to see the Indian agent”? And Mr. Lynch, in a sarcastic way, turned around a 1522 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. and said to me,“ Is he any better than anybody else?” Before I had a chance to reply, Beaulieu said, “‘ He may not be any better than any- body else, but his rights should be considered first before others. And we didn’t say any more to him. And we went around and by that time I got over to Mr. Beaulieu’s office again, and a chief of the Mille Lac Indians, by the name of Pin-de-ge-ge-shig, came to me and said, “ Quay-se-good, I want you to come with me to the agency office; I must see the agent.” I said “All right,” and we went over to see Agent Michelet, and we saw him, and the chief said, “‘ Suspend the allotments to-day; we have not had time; we are not ready to take our allotments.” Maj. Michelet said, “I have advertised that the allotments shall take place to-day and I presume I will make the allotments.” He said, “ Then we will wire to the President of the United States, asking him to suspend the allotments.” By that time Michelet had asked me if there was not a way that he could expedite matters so that the allotments could go on. He said there were so many people had come from a long distance to take these allotments and that they should be made, and he suggested a little council should be held right out in front there; so I went to Mr. Fairbanks, Gus Beaulieu, and a few other mixed bloods, with May-zhuc-e-ge-shig and Pin-de-ge-ge-shig and some other Indians, and we held a little council there, and we came to an understanding that these Indians, the first Indians on the White Earth Reser- vation, should take each mixed blood of their own mixed blood, those that théy recognized as their mixed bloods. What made these Indians angry—they were really angry at that time, and if it had not been for a little ingenuity, you might call it, there would have been blood shed there that morning—there were so many mixed bloods there who had come from Duluth, from Minneapolis, and from St. Paul, from St. Louis, and from Chicago, and from every place, to take their allotments, and they didn’t know these people, and they called them the “white Indians.” And they decided they would take their allotments if they were given a chance to take the allotments with the other half-breeds, or with what they called their mixed bloods; and they formed two lines; and they were ready to take the allotments. May-zhuc-e-ge-shig was first in the Indian line, and Margaret Lynch was first in the other line. So Michelet said, “Can you people understand what I want you to do? This is what I_ want you to do.” And he took May-zhuc-e-ge-shig and Margaret Lynch’s hands. and he says, “ This is the way I want you to go in.” And the allotting started that way. And I forgot to mention that there was a committee of white men selected by the council, to act as an identifying committee; that is, to identify the Indians as they came in and if there was any Indian that they could not recognize and he could not prove to their satisfaction that he was a member of the reservation, they made a protest against the allotment. I was the chairman of that committee, selected. by the Indians. And the Indians came in first, and then the mixed bloods, alternately, until the line was in such shape that they could not come in alternately: that is, those farther back. The allotment was made that way and it seemed that everything was satisfactory, and I don’t believe that this commission or Mr. Burch’s force could have done any better under the circumstances. I think the allotments were WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1523 made as fairly and conscientiously as could have been done under the circumstances. Mr. Granam. Now, Mr. Carl, when you have finished with this allotment incident we will suspend with you and ask Mr. Beaulieu to call witnesses whose testimony will be brief, and let them get away. So, when you have finished with that, let us know. The Wrrness. Well, I will finish in just a short while. The allot- ment was satisfactory until Mr. Charles wanted to take his allotment. Of course, he came in later than the others, and the allotment that he had selected, or the minutes that had been given to him, probably by some one, was already allotted, and he said—I heard him say this: “Tf I can’t take what I select I don’t want any allotment at all.” I will suspend right there, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bravuiev. I want to call Theodore Beaulieu back to introduce a paper. : Tueopore Beauuiet recalled. Witness hands paper to committee. Examined by Mr. Granam: Q. Who made this paper ?—A. Mr. Lynch. @ Q. Some of it is in pen and ink and some of it is in pencil—aA. What is in pencil is Mr. Church’s notes. .Q. Who is Mr. Church?—A. He was a special agent, or an in- spector. Q. By the paper I suppose you mean only the portion of this that is in pen and ink?—-A. Yes, sir. Q.. Well, what explanation do you wish to make about it?—A. Well, { will read what I state here. Q. No; just tell us; what explanation?—-A. I made the statement yesterday that Lynch had a team there working for the Government at $4 a day. é We Tontuiibet that—A. And Jesse Porter was millwright at $8 a day, and that all he did there from June 17 until they shut down was to drive his team. Q. You told us about that yesterday—A. Well, that is all. Q. Well, does this paper corroborate your statement in some way?—aA. Yes. Q. How?—A. The stub checks at the office there and the vouchers show that Jesse Porter was paid this amount. ; Q. It is the stubs that we should have, rather than this report, isn’t it?A. That is all I have. You will have to call for the stubs at the agency office at White Earth; also the pay roll. : Q. What is this time sheet for? Whose time is it?—A. That is for the service—Government time. tes Q. There is nothing I see to indicate what service it is—A. Well, not this, but there is on the pay roll. It only indicates the number of days and the salary. ; so ee Q. The first page of it is written in in pencil in the blank the word “August,” but there is no year given.—A. No. Q. What year was it?—A. That was in 1895, I think. Q. Who wrote the word “August” in it?—A. Well, I did that. Q. When?—A. That was when we turned it over to Mr. Downs. 1524 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. When was that?—A. That was some time in August; I can not just recall the date. Q. This particular August?—A. Yes. . . Q. You don’t remember the year?—A. The year, I think, 1s on the first page. I think it is 1905. ore Q. There is a note in pencil dated June 18, 1906, but it is apart from the pen-and-ink writing—A. Well, that is the date I gave it to him, I expect. No; that is something else. That is the time they started up the planer and that is where they dismissed a number of the crew. From June 17 it was set down that Jesse Porter drove a team and got pay by a Government check. : Q. The other bill you hand us has writing in ink: “Time for month of April, 1905.—A. That was the time. It was in 1906 when 1 handed it to Mr. Church. Q. Well, was this from the sheet for August, 1905, also?—-A. Yes; 1905. Q. In the April sheet the name of Jesse Porter comes. He is cred- ited with $25 and later at $3 per day. In pencil, written by some one else than the person who kept the record, the word “ millwright.”— A. That was Mr. Church, himself. Q. The time record was kept by Lynch, was it?—A. Yes. Q. And the pencil writing was by Mr. Church, was it?—A. Yes, Q. The statement you make, then, would not apply to the time sheet for April, would it?—A. Not this-one. Q. That is, during April Porter didn’t do personal service for Lynch; that record does not show it, does it?—A. No; it doesn’t show it in dates. Q. Well, what use is the record to us?—A. That shows that he was paid by the Government $3 a day. Q. There was no question about that at any time. You didn’t need papers to corroborate that statement.—A. Well, he didn’t work for the Government. : Q. Well, there is nothing in that paper which shows that he didn’t work for the Government.—A. No. Q. Then what good is the paper to us? Mr. Bravuiev. Mr. Chairman, the paper simply corroborates—— Mr. Granam. Does it corroborate a fact that is not in dispute? What is the use of corroborating a fact not in dispute? ee Bravuiev. I think it will corroborate the records of the agency office. Mr. Grauam. In what way? Mr. Bravuizv. It will show that that man got pay for that time. a Granam. What need of corroborating the records of the agency office ? Mr. Bravuiev. You have no record here, have you? Mr. Granam. Well, then, if we haven’t them it won’t corroborate them. We can not corroborate something that we have not. Mr. Beavriev. If the committee wants to get at the truth_— Mr. Granam. The committee does want to get at the truth, but it does not want to fill its record with trash or slush and waste time. Mr. Beavtiev. I am only following the precedent established by Mr. Burch, who put in a whole lot of what I call trash, and it was accepted. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1525 Mr. Granam. You have had quite as good an opportunity as Mr. Burch or anyone else, and I think it is unfair of you to make those contrasts so often as you have done. You have not been and will not be denied any rights you should have, but that does not mean that you shall waste time and fill the record with useless matter. Mr. Bravuiev. I don’t regard that as useless. Mr. Granam. Will you point out to us what use it is? Mr. Breautrev. Let me see the sheet, please. (Chairman hands paper to Mr. Beaulieu.) Mr. Bravuiev. This gives Mr. Lynch’s time at 30 days. Mr. Granam. No question about Lynch’s time. Mr. Bravriev. Well, this will give also Jesse Porter’s time for a number of days here; it is 19 days, at $3 a day. Mr. Grauam. Which sheet are you looking at? ‘Mr. Beautiev. The August sheet. It gives his time 19 days, at $3 a day. Mr. Grauam. Now, will you point out there where that says what he was doing on these 19 days? Mr. Bravtiev. It says here that he was working. Mr. Grauam. What at? Mr. Beavuuiev. It just simply says here—now, these matters are for the purpose of showing—this was a report submitted to the Indian office at White Earth to show that Porter had worked 19 days, and during those 19 days we have produced evidence that he worked for Lynch instead of the agency. Mr. Granam. J am not sure about that. Mr. Beaulieu testified yesterday that sometimes when Porter was supposed to be working as a millwright he was, in fact, driving a team for Mrs. Lynch. But he didn’t give times; he stated it generally. Mr. Beavutrev. Well, we want to show—we have no way of getting at the records. Mr. Grauam. Do you expect us to guess at it? Mr. Beavuiev. I believe that you can, through them, get at the proper information. ‘Mr. Granam. I will make a statement into the record and dis- pose of it. . Mr. Linnen. Mr. Chairman, if you will permit me, I would like to say that there is nothing here to show that these are the figures or time kept by Mr. Lynch. Mr. GraHam. Nothing but Mr. Beaulieu’s sworn statement that this is Mr. Lynch’s writing. Mr. Linnen. And I believe it is due to Mr. Lynch to refute that if he so saw fit. ; ; Mr. Granam. Mr. Lynch, like anyone else, will have a fair chance. I understood you to testify, Mr. Beaulieu, that this was Mr. Lynch’s Ene A. Yes, sir. be . Q. You are familiar with his handwriting?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You know it?—A. I know it. dee ee eo Q. And you know that this record in pen and ink is in his hand- writing ?—A. It is in his handwriting. ; Q. In copy of the April and August sheet?—A. Yes, sir. Q. I think that covers that—A. Yes, sir. I was leaving there at the time, and I saw the whole thing. “1526 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grauam. On the page on which the time for 1905 is kept this line occurs: “ Name, Jesse Porter; days, 25.” Under the head- ing, which is not plain but looks more like “ price” to me than any- thing else, are the figures $3; and in another column, without a head- ing, the total, $75. There is nothing else in that column written by Mr. Lynch, but in pencil writing by some one else is the word “ mill- wright,” between the per diem and the total for the month. That is all on that page which Mr. Beaulieu says has any bearing on this matter. On the sheet there is written in the blank at the top the word “ August,” which Mr. Beaulieu, the witness, says was written in by him afterwards, and this line occurs: “Number 3, Jesse Por- ter.’ Then occurs check marks under the days of the week, indicat- ing the number of days worked in that month. The first week shows five days, the second week six days, and the third week six days, and one day in the next week; and that is all the entries in the hand- writing of Mr. Lynch on that page, but it does not indicate in any way what work he did on those days. Does that cover the point? Mr. Beavuiev. Yes. ‘ The Wrrness. Well, there is some more writing back of that in Mr. Lynch’s handwriting. Mr. Granam. Which is it, Mr. Beaulieu? The Wirvess. I think it is in ink writing—these are Mr. Church’s, but everything in pen here is Mr. Lynch’s. Mr. Granam. Mr. Gus Beaulieu, what is there there that will shed any light on this matter? Do you see anything? ; Mr. Beautrev. As I understand it, this is the same total right here, of the amounts paid. Mr. Grauam. I don’t know whether that is true or not. Mr. Beavutizv. Well, we are introducing it as evidence. Mr. Grauam. I know, but when you introduce a paper to prove something you must make a connection. Mr. Grorce. The committee must understand it. Mr. Grauam. There is on the back of the sheet marked “August” some figuring; certain sums are set down and added up. One col- umn foots up the sum of $257.25, presumably; another column foots up $325.50, then both of those totals are added together and produce a grand total of $582.75, and those figures appear to be in Mr. Lynch’s handwriting. Does that cover the case? On the back of the same sheet, apparently written by Mr. Lynch with pen and ink, the figures “19” are set down, the figure “3” under that, and the product “57” under a line drawn beneath. Right by it are the figures “27,” and after the figures “4” and “2” then a line, the implication being that the product is $121.50 [Return- ing paper to witness.] Did you have any conversation with the special agent regarding that matter with Mr. Church? : A. With Church; yes, sir. Q. And what did he say?—A. He said those statements were facis. That they showed upon the record of the agency office that the money was paid by the Government; that the stubs showed it and the vouchers showed it. Q. Where is Mr. Church?—A. I don’t know where he is. Q. It is a rather poor way to prove Mr. Church’s statements. It is in and it may stay in, but it is a very weak, distant proof—A. Well he was an inspector; that is all I know. : WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1527 Q. I know, but if he were here what you are saying would be quite competent, but it is hearsay, and we have to trust to your memory.—A. I am trying to tell it—you ask me where he is. I don’t know. Q. He is living, is he?—A. I couldn’t say. Mr. Bravuiev. It seems to me that the department would be able to get information about Mr. Church. You can not expect to pro- duce Mr. Church here, and I think the department records should be able to corroborate what Mr. Church said. Mr. Granam. I know, but is that any reason why what he said should be detailed to us through a conversation, until we find out something about whether we can get him or not? Mr. Bzavurev. Well, of course, it is up to the committee. I don’t Jmow whether they can find him or not. Mr. Granam. Well, the statement is in the record and it may stay in for what iteis worth. The Wrrness. I made the same statement to Mr. Dalby. I was under oath at that time and I swore to the charges that had been made against Mr. Lynch, and he told me at that time, be said, “ ‘Those are all true.” I said, “ Why don’t you report it then,” and he said, “Well, I will report it as soon as I know the facts,” he says, “ These are all true,” and a month or so afterwards Mr. Lynch was dismissed. Mr. Granam. Is there any personal ill feeling between you and Mr. Lynch? The Wrrness. We don’t speak. Mr. Granam. How long since you spoke to each other? The Wrrnezss. Since we discovered about the lumber. ‘Mr. Granam. Since the time this record was made, with which we have been dealing? The Witness. Not the last winter; some time in 1897. Mr. Granam. Oh, then, your ill feeling toward one another dates away back of this time? The Witness. Away back. Mr. Grauam. Well, is it—for the last 15 years, then, he and you have been enemies, practically? The Wirness. Yes. Mr. Granam. And he and your brother, Gus Beaulieu, have also? The Witness. I don’t know about that. He can speak for himself. Mr. Granam. Well, don’t you know? The Wrrness. No; I don’t know. Mr. Granam. Very well. Mr. Georce. Was this paper prepared by Mr. Lynch? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. How did it come into your possession ? The Wrrness. After he left the mill I was asked by the agent to take charge of the mill through the Commissioner of Indian Af- fairs—to take charge of the mill—and he left all the orders there, together with these papers; and in going over the orders, looking up the orders that had been issued for lumber, I had to take up all these orders and find out whether there was any lumber issued, and that is where I got that paper. I turned the orders over to Mr. Church as soon as I met him. . Mr. Grorcr. And then how did it come into your possession? It is a Government paper. 1528 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Wrrness. I turned it over to Mr. Church, and he did not finish the investigation, and he said he left it for the report. Mr. Granam. Mr. Linnen, can you tell us whether Mr. Church is still in the Government service ? . Se Mr. Liyyen. He is not in the Government service, but he is still living in New Hampshire. I would like to ask this witness a ques- tion. Mr. Beaulieu [addressing witness], did you not also report this matter to an inspector named Dalby? The Wirness. Yes, sir. : Mr. Linnen. And did he not make an investigation of this matter? The Wrrness. Yes, sir. : Mr. Linney. Do you know what the substance of his report was? The Wrrness. I understood that he reported that these were the facts and that Mr. Lynch was discharged. : Mr. Lrynen. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to submit for your investigation the report of Mr. Dalby. a Mr. Grayam. Any official report made by Mr. Church or Mr. Dalby or anyone who investigated the matter is competent and really ought to go in with Mr. Beaulieu’s testimony. Mr. Bravurev. Did Mr. Dalby inform you that the charges made were true? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Mr. Beavtrev. Now, was not this money paid out to Lynch ‘and Porter and the others from Chippewa funds? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Mr. Breavuiev. That is all. Mr. Granam. That is all, Mr. Beaulieu. You were excused yes- terday, and you are here on your own time now. Mrs. Isapetita C. LatourELie sworn, testified as follows: ‘Examined by Mr. Granam: Q. Where do you live?—A. Mahnomen. Q. How long have you lived there?—A. Oh, I don’t live at Mah- nomen; I live on a farm 6 miles from Mahnomen. Q. How long have you lived on the reservation?—A. Since 17 years—18. . Is your husband now living?—A. No. . Are you a widow?—A. Yes. . Have you a family?—A. Yes; two children living with me. . Are you farming?—A. He is farming. . Your boys are farming?—A. A little bit. . How old are they?—A. The girl she is 26 and the boy is 28. . Are they both married and living with you?—A. Yes; they are both married. Q. Did you get an allotment?—A. Yes. Q. Is there any Indian blood in you?—A. Yes. Q. How much?—A. My mother was a half breed and my father was a quarter breed. ‘Examined by Mr. Bravuzev: Q. Do you recall riding up from Ogama to Mahnomen with me last foll?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you make a statement there regarding the sale of a tract of land, or the proposed sale?—A. Yes; my father’s land. Q. Your father was an allottee, was he not?—A. Yes, sir, COOOOOO i | WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1529 Q. Where was the land allotted?—-A. Well, it was a mile and a half from the office at White Earth. Q. I wish you would just tell us what took place, in your own way, in regard to the land.—A. Say where the land is. . No; just tell what took place. Mr. Granam. I think you had better ask her; she won’t know how to carry on a connected story. Q. Did you offer to sell the land?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Through whom?—aA. Well, I come and see Mr. Long here in Detroit here, if they would help me sell the land, and he said he said he would. He asked me how much I wanted an acre, and I told him $1,200 for the 80 acres, and he said “All right.” He said “That is too cheap, we will try to get $1,600 for it if we can.” So he called Mr. Newall and told him, and Mr. Newall he would go and see it. He says, “If I like the piece of land, I will buy it.” Soa bos after that he sent me a letter—Mr. Long, I guess, he sent me a etter. : Mr. Grauam. Do you mean Judge Long of this city? The Wirness. Yes, sir. And he said Mr. Newall wouldn’t want to give me more than $800. Well, I said it was awfully cheap; and yet I thought I would rather sell it for that as to lose it for taxes. Mr. Granam. Well, did you sell it? The Witness. No. Mr. Granam. You will have to help her, Mr. Beaulieu. Q. What took place; did you have any further talk with Mr. Long?—A. Yes; oh, yes. Well, I said, “I guess I will let it go for $800.” He says, “ You had better get rid of it the land is no good to you anyway.” So I went back to Mahnomen and Mr. Thompson told me not to sell it for $800; to try to get more. Q. Mr. Thompson is a banker up there, is he not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, when Mr. Long told you to sell it, what did he say about the value of land around there?—A. He said that was a good price, because, he says, “I would not give $10 an acre for the best piece of land on the reservation. Q. What else did he say?—A. That is all, I guess. Q. Who was with you at the time?—A. I was alone. Q. You were alone at that time?—A. That was the first part of May. 0. Di dyou sell the land?—A. No; not yet. Oh, maybe it is sold; I don’t know. . ; Q. Did you go down to see Mr. Long again?—A. No; I didn’t go to see him afterwards. Q. Did you see him before then?—A. Yes. Q. Who were you with?—A. The one time I come here before that was not for my father's land; it was for Mrs. Gubbins’s land. Q. And did you have any conversation with Mr. Long?—A. Not me, but my sister. Q. That is Mrs. Gubbins?—A. Yes. ; Q. What did you say; what was the conversation about? Mr. Grawam. Did you hear the conversation ? ; The Wrrness. Yes; my sister lives in Minneapolis. She got a letter from Mr. Long to come up here, that he wants to see her. She come on the 14th of June, and after the 14th of June we came to 2 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2 1530 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Detroit to see Mr. Long, and Mr. Long pulled out some papers and says, “Do you want to make an application for a fee patent?” She says, “No.” And he pulled out the paper, and he says, “Ts that your signature?” She says, “ Yes.” “Why,” she says, “IT never made any application for that, but this is my signature all right. “Well,” she says, “anyway I don’t want to send for my fee patent, because the man that bought my land didn’t give me enough for my land. He gave me $800, and a few days after that the same land was sold for $2,800.” So she says like this: “I am holding the fee patent to get—I won’t sign it for them unless I get more for the land.” Mr. Granam. Do you know that it was sold for $2,800 soon after? The Witness. Why, that is what everybody told us. Mr. Grauam. But you don’t know except from hearsay? The Wrirness. No; I don’t know, of course. - Q. What was said further, anything more?—A. Then he said, “Why,” he says, “We will make you; we will make you sign that fee patent to your buyer.” I don’t talk very good English. Mr. Granam. You do very well. Q. Mr. Long said he would make her sign the fee patent or the application? What did he say he would make her do?—A. Why, when she said she didn’t want to sign the fee patent to her buyer, he says, “ We will make you, or you will have to.” Mr. Beavuiev. That is all. Examined by Mr. Burcu: Q. Now, Mrs. Latourelle, did your sister acknowledge that she had signed this paper that was presented to her; that is, did she say it was her signature, but that she hadn’t signed it?—A. She said, “Tt is my signature but I never knew to make application for my fee patent.” Q. Who had purchased your sister’s pine or her allotment, her ndditional allotment, for $800—the pine allotment—who had bought it?—A. No; she only had 80 acres... Q. Well, I know; but who had bought it from her?—A. Mr. Diamond. Q. Mr. Diamond, of Minneapolis?—A. Yes. Q. Mr. Diamond had bought her land for $800 and she had heard that it was sold for $2,800?—A. Yes. Q. And you say that you told Long that she didn’t want to get her fee patent; that she was holding that back to compel them to give her more—to do better by her?—A. Yes; she would sign it when they gave her more, because she sold it too cheap. Q. She would sign it when they gave her more, because she had sold it too cheap?—A. Yes. Q. Now, you say Mr. Long told her she would have to sign it ?— A. “We will make you sign it.” I don’t know—— Q. Well, it is quite important to Mr. Long that you should tell it the way it is—A. That is the truth. Q. Just keep cool and quiet; tell what occurred in the conversa- tion; nobody will disturb you; don’t be disturbed; just tell us what language.—A. Well, he said like this: “We will make you”—no; no—“ we will make you, and you will have to sign it.” Q. “You will have to sign it”?—A. Yes; “you will have to sign it.” WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1531 Q. Well, what else?—A. That is all. Q. Did he say, “ For the good of your buyer,” or “for the sake of oe buyer”?—A. It looks like that; and she was talking, you ow. Q. No; but I want to know what Mr. Long said.—A. Well, he said, “ You will have to sign that,” or “We will have to make her sign that for the buyer.” Q. Did he say, “For the good of the buyer”? I understood you ’ to say the first time that he said, “ For the good of the buyer.” Did he say that—‘ You will have to make good to your buyer”?—A. Why, it seems that way. Q. Now, did he—not what it seems—did he say it? Just simply tell us what he said.—A. Why, he say it just like the way I say it. Q. Say “ You have to sign it”?—A. “She will have to sign it.” Mr. Granam. I think we can construe it as well as she. All you would get would be her judgment as to what he meant. Q. Now, I will go back to your own land. Mrs. Latourelle, you got a letter from Mr. Long. The first you heard from Mr. Long in seoer to your land, you got a letter from him to come down?—A. es, sir. Q. You lived where?—A. I lived in Mahnomen. Q. Did you keep the letter that you got?—A. He sent me that. He said he found a buyer—Mr. Newall—and he was going to get me only $800. i Q. No, no, no; I want to get back to the first you heard of Mr. Long. I don’t want to know about anybody else. What did you first hear from Mr. Long? Did you get a letter?—A. Yes; I got a letter from him. Q. Have you got that letter?—A. I must have the letter, because I save all my letters. Q. Did you take it with you?—A. No, sir. Q. Well, could you get it?—A. I could get it, I suppose, if I go back home. Q. You couldn’t send home for it to anybody else?—A. No. Mr. Granam. Can’t she send it here when she gets home? . The Witness. I could send all these letters. Q. Well, if you can send the letter when you get back home, that will do just as well. Now, as near as you can, tell me what he said in that letter to you—A. That is all he said. Q. That he had found a buyer?—A. Yes. Q. For your land?—A. Yes. Q. Did he say for how much?—A. $800. Q. Well, you wanted more than $8007—A. I wanted $1,200. Q. But did you go down to see him?—A. Yes; I come down to see ‘him. Q. Did you see Mr. Long?—A. Yes; I saw him. | Q. This gentleman here who just came in [indicating Mr. Long] ?— A. Yes, sir. ns Q. Now, what did Mr. Long say to you when you came in t#—A. He told me he would do all he could to help me sell the Jand and I told him I guess I would let it go for $800 because it would be too much expense in the land for us; we wouldn't get anything after all the expense is paid. He says, “If I were you I would sell the land for that $800.” | 1532 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. Now I will go back: Was some one else mentioned in the con- versation when you came to the office; whose name was mentioned as buyer for the land?—A. Mr. Newall. Q. Who was this Mr. Newall, a real estate agent?—A. I don’t know who he was; he told me—— : Q. Was he there; did he come in?—A. Yes; the first time he come in, but when I went the second time—— Q. Oh, you went twice?—A. Yes. Q. Well, now leave the second time out now and tell us about the first time. Now, the first time you were there, did anybody come in?—A. No. Q. What did Mr. Long say to you?) Now remember it just as well and as carefully as you can.—A. Well, now that is what I tell you'a little while ago; that is just that way. Q. Well, did he tell you who wanted to buy the land the first time? Did Mr. Long tell you who wanted to buy the land?—A. He told me he found a buyer for it and he went into the next room and he got Mr. Newall. Q. And he brought him in?—A. Yes. Q. And this is the first time?—-A. Yes; this is the first time. I tried to sell the land with Mr. Long; I wanted him to help me to sell the land. Q. Well, did you go to Mr. Long and ask him in the first place, before he wrote you the letter, to find somebody to buy your land; oe you ayer ask him to help you find somebody to buy the land?—A. es; I did. Q. Oh, yes; was it before you got the letter?—A. Yes; and after I asked him to send me a letter. Q. Oh, yes. Now, then—he asked—now don’t get excited, keep perfectly cool, you won’t get hurt.—A. I see him many times. Mr. Grauam. I don’t think the lady is afraid. I don’t think you need to waste time assuring her that she will not be hurt. She doesn’t look to me like a woman who would be afraid. Q. Now, you first went to Mr. Long to get him to help you sell the land; is that the idea?—A. Isn’t that what I have been saying to you all the time? - No; all I want to know—I don’t quite understand you, and I want to clear it up. Did you first go to Mr. Long and ask him to help you sell the land?—A. Yes; I did. Q. Then you got a letter after that?—A. Yes. Q. Did he think he had found a purchaser?—A. No; he told me that; then he sent me a letter that Mr. Newall wanted to see the land; and he won’t give more than $800. Mr. Burcu. Gentlemen of the committee, I confess my inability to get a connected story. Mr. Grauam. I think I understand her. . Mr. Burcu. Well, I don’t, I am sorry to say. If the committee will allow me, I will retire from the matter and allow Mr. Long to ask her questions, unless you think it is proper otherwise. I am not able to get an understanding from her; I can’t do it. I can not un- derstand whether she claims she first requested Mr. Long to act for her to find a purchaser, and then he wrote to her, or how is it. Mr. Gravam. Well, she came in and talked with him and asked him to find a buyer, and he said he would try to do it. Later he WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1533 wrote her that he thought he had a buyer for $800. She came to see him. She thought $800 was not enough, but that she ought to have $1,200; but she talked with him to the effect that the taxes were eat- ing it up and that perhaps she had better take $800 for it, and he ~ thought so, too. Q. Now, is that the way he did; the way he tells it?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, then, I am content with that. That is all. Examined by Mr. Gzorcr: Q. When you first came here, did you see Mr. Newall?—A. When I first came alone? Q. When you first came to sell your land?—A. Yes; I saw Mr. Long. Then he went after Mr. Newall in his room, the next office; pet was the first time I came to try to get him to help me sell the and. Q. That was the first time you came to town here; and you saw first Mr. Long, and Mr. Long went after Mr. Newall?—A. Yes. Q. And you told Mr. Newall that you wanted to sell your land for $1,200?A. I told Mr. Long, and he wanted to know how much I wanted for the land, and I said $1,200. Q. Yes; but he told you——A. He told me it was pretty cheap; he thought we should try to sell it for $1,600. Q. Who told you that¢—A. Mr. Long. Q. Yes; and was Mr. Newall there; did Mr. Newall hear that ?— A. No; Mr. Newall—he went after Mr. Newall after he said that. Q. Yes?—A. No; Mr. Newall was there at the time he said that. Q. Yes; and then you got a letter from Mr. Long after that ?—A. Yes. Mr. Newall says he will go and see the land; he says he was going to be at Mahnomen Hotel two or three days after that, but I didn’t hear for a week after that. ; Q. Yes; and then you got a letter from Mr. Long?—A. Yes; and Mr. Long said the land wasn’t worth more than $800. He said Mr. Newall wouldn’t give more than $800. Q. And he advised you to sell the land for $800?—A. He said that if he was me he would sell it for $800. Examined by Mr. Burcu: Q. Now, Mrs. Latourelle, between the time you were first there and the time he wrote you that letter, he found out that that land had already been sold for taxes? This land had been sold for taxes, had it not; and he found it out?—A. No. Mr. Granam. Was your land sold for taxes? ; The Wrrness. Yes, sir; but that is what they told me—it was sold by the city for taxes. ; Q. But it was not your own allotment, was it? It was some rela- tive’s allotment?—A. Yes; it was my father’s. ; Q. Now, when Mr. Long first talked with you that it would be worth $1,200 or $1,600, did he know at that time that it had been sold for taxes?—A. Well, I don’t know if he knew it. ; Q. Now, what I want to get at is this——A. I found that out when I came to pay the taxes myself here in town. Mr. GEorcE. ies — that? The Witness. This last year. Mr. Grorce. Was that ftee you talked with Mr. Long the first time? 1534 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Wrrness. No. Mr. Lone. If the committee will allow me, I would like to sug- gest that you ask her a question or two right here. Mr. Granam. What are the questions you want asked ? Mr. Lone. About the sale for taxes. When she first came to me the situation was that she was going to lose the land; that it had been sold for taxes; she couldn’t redeem it; she had no money to pay back taxes and interest. The Wirness. Yes; but I could borrow money at the bank. I wasn’t afraid to lose the land; I could borrow money at the bank. Mr. Grauam. Did you say that at the time? ‘The Wrrness. No. Mr. Grauam. Well, if you had credit at the bank and could bor- row money, why did you let the land be sold for taxes?) Why didn’t you borrow money in time to pay? The Witness. Why, I wanted to do that; then I thought—they told me I couldn’t lost it. Mr. Granam. Who told you you couldn’t lose it? The Wirness. Why, I forgot who told me I couldn’t lose it. I think it was Mr. Thompson. Mr. Granam. Was there more than one year’s unpaid taxes? The Wirness. I guess it was three years. Mr. Granam. Had it been sold more than once? The Wirness. Why, after that I paid only the taxes of 1910. Mr. Granam. Mr. Dennis, do you know what is the penalty on unpaid taxes in this State? Mr. Dennis. One per cent a month, or 12 per cent a year, after the sale. Mr. Granam. And when may title pass? Mr. Dennis. Not until three years after the sale. The purchaser in a tax sale has to give notice of the expiration of redemption, and that is served personally and deposited with the county auditor; and then 90 days have to elapse after the notice of expiration in which the owner of the land can come in and yet redeem. Mr. Grauam. That is for my personal information. Mr. Lone. I would like to have her asked whether I suggested to get somebody to redeem the land and pay the back taxes and interest on it. Mr. Granam. Do you recall Judge Long saying then that you should get somebody to pay the back taxes? The Wrrness. No; because I could pay it myself. Mr. Granam. But did he suggest that? The Wirness. No. Mr. Bravuiev. I want to ask Mrs. Latourelle: Do you know what the value of the land is around the vicinity of your father’s land— the land that you are speaking of now. Do you know the value of the land you are speaking of now? The Witness. Yes; I know the value. Mr. Beavtiev. Do you know what land is selling for right in that neighborhood ? The Wirness. Why, I don’t know very much, because I hate even to sell it for $1,200, because I know it is too cheap. _Mr. Granam. Would her judgment about the selling price of land be worth very much? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1535 Mr. Beav.iev. No; but I want to ask another question. Were you offered more that $800 at any time for that land? The Wirness. Why, Mr. Julius Brown, he says he has a party— he is going to give me $1,400, and I told him that was too cheap. T don’t want to sell it for that. Mr. Brautmv. You have a brother, haven’t you? The Wrirness. Yes; I have two brothers. _ Mr. Beavuuiev. Well, they own it with you; that is, they have an interest in the land with you? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Mr. Beavutimv. Did either of your brothers ever tell you that he had been offered a certain price for the land? The Witness. No; I never heard. t am SaaeuE. Mr. Long had advised you to sell the land for ,600? The Wirness. Yes. : Mr. Beavtiev. And then, after he had seen Mr. Newall, he advised you to sell it for $800? The Witness. Yes, sir. Mr. Beavuiev. That is all. Mr. Burcu. Mrs. Latourelle, I will ask you—— ’ Mr. Granam. Well, Judge, make it as short as you can. It doesn’t seem to me that we are getting very much from this witness in proportion to the time it is taking. Mr. Burcu. I beg your pardon, but I have matters of importance to find out. Mr. Granam. Well, go on. Examined by Mr. Burcu: Q. Mrs. Latourelle, when were you put on the roll of the Indians at White Earth? You are a French woman, are you not?—A. I was put on the roll in 1862. : Q. In 18622—A. No; 1872. Q. You are sure it was not 1882?—A. No; it was 1872. Q. 1872; all right—A. I was put on the roll twice. The first time I was put on the roll in 1872. Q. And the second time?—A. The second time I don’t remember. It was father put us on the roll. Q. Where did you live?—A. I lived at St. Paul. I was born and raised in St. Paul. Q. Now, do you know that it is claimed that you haven’t a par- ticle of Indian blood in you? Is that true that you have no Indian blood—is that true?—A. Of course, I have got Indian blood. My mother was a half-breed, and her mother was a squaw, and her father was a quarter, and it made her half-breed, and my father was a quarter-breed. : ; Mr. Beavusev. Is this for the purpose of intimidating this witness ? Mr. Burcu. It is for the purpose of showing that you got her put on, and that she hasn’t a particle of Indian blood in her. The Wrrness. Who said that? I know who said that. Mr. Burcu. Who got you put on that Indian roll—Gus Beau- lieu 2—A. No. 1536 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. Who?—A. Why, that was father; was here on the reservation here, and we was in St. Paul; father put us on the roll. ; : Q. Well, did Gus Beaulieu put you on the roll?—A. No; if he did I don’t know anything about it. . ; Q. All right; if you don’t know about it, that is all. Do you speak the Chippewa language?—A. No, sir. Q. All right. By Mr. Dennis: ‘ Q. Mrs. Latourelle, did you sell this land? : The Wirness. No; I didn’t sell it at all. Mr. Converse sold it for us. Q. It was inherited land, was it? It was not your own allot- ment?—A. No. Q. And Mr. Converse sold it for $9002?—A. Yes; he sold it; on I don’t know; he didn’t tell me how much he sold it; I hear it from the judge, I guess. Q. And Mr. Converse was to get $100 commision and you were to get $800?—A. I don’t know anything about it. Mr. Bracuiev. That was sold through the probate court, wasn’t it? Mr. Dewnis. Yes; a week ago. Grorce CAMPBELL, sworn, testified as follows: Examined by Mr. Granam: Q. What is your full name?—A. George Campbell. Q. Where do you live?—A. White Earth. Q. How long have you lived at White Eearth?--A. Four years. Q. What is your business?—A. I have worked for the Governh- ment in different capacities. Q. At present in what capacity?—A. I am not doing anything at present. Q. What was the last work you did?—A. The last work I did was interpreting for the United States court at Fergus Falls. Q. Were you a professional interpreter for the Government ?—A. Well, I don’t know; [ have always interpreted for the last 20 years. Q. Were you paid by the month or the year, as an interpreter ?— A. Just for the time being. Q. For the work you actually did?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What other employment had you?—A. Previous to going down to Fergus Falls? Q. Yes. Or between times, when you were not interpreting ?— A. I did a great deal of cruising. Q. Are you an expert cruiser?—A. No, sir. Q. What do you mean by doing a good deal of cruising ?—-A. Ex- amining lands. P ~ Does the term “cruising” apply to any but timberlands?—A. , yes. Q. What does it mean as applied to agricultural lands?—A. Well you cruise out land; that is, run it out, stake it out. Q. Survey it?@—A. No; we trace lands. Q. And what other occupation have you followed?--A. Well. I forwarded for the Government allotting agent at one time—the Chippewa Commission. ovonnen aie WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1537 _Q. You were a member of that commission, were you?’—aA. Yes, sir. Q. When was that, Mr. Campbell?—A. I don’t know. When the commission was in operation there at White Earth. _Q. You don’t remember?—A. No, sir. It was in operation ever since 1889, and I have worked seven or eight years for the commis- sion. Q. Are you part Indian?—A. Well, I am called so. Q. How much?—A. Well, part Indian. Q. How much Indian blood have you?—A. My mother was an Indian woman. Of course you are an allottee?—A. Yes, sir. Original and additional allotment?—A. Yes, sir. - You still retain them?—A. Yes, sir. Have you any land upon the reservation now?—A. Yes, sir. . What is it; inherited or purchased ?—A. Inherited land. . How much have you?—A. Eighty acres. Examined by Mr. Beavutiv: Q. Mr. Campbell, were you not a delegate for the Chippewas at Washington a year ago last winter?—A. I was there; yes, sir. Q. Do you recall the work that you went down to look after?—A. I think the nature of the work was to get a commission appointed. Q. To classify the people on the reservation?—A. I think that was the nature of it. Q. To try to get a bill through to get the Indians on White Earth classified ?—A. I think that was it; yes. Q. Whether they were mixed bloods or full bloods?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall meeting Mr. Burch in his office at Washing- ton?—A. I don’t know; I can not say as to that. I know we were at Mr. Burch’s office and we talked to a man there, but I don’t know whether it was Mr. Burch. I know I met Mr. Nabel. Q. Who were with you when went there?—A. Yourself and Mr. Henderson. - Q. Anyone else?—A. No, sir. Q. Did you discuss that bill with the person that you saw there ?— A. Well, we both talked about it. Q. Well, what was the understanding there? ; Mr. Borcu. I don’t think that is right—give the conversation. If I am to face three men, I want the language. Q. Do you recall the conversation that was held there?—A. Well, I think we put up the proposition to these men that we met, in regard to this bill I was just speaking about, and they thought it was a very good proposition and accepted it. : ind, Mr. Burcu. I think that is wrong. If he will tell what I said if it was me, or Mr. Nabel if it was he, I think that is the proper thing. Mr. Grauam. Well, you can get after that later. Go on. Q. What was the conversation about there?—A. That is why we went in to see whoever this gentleman was, Nabel, I think was his name. He says, “ You are just the men I want to see from the reser- vation.” Nabel said that. He said, “We would like to get all this stuff together and we want such men as you to come in here and see us”; he says, “So we can adjust these matters.” QLLLLO 1538 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. Was this upstairs or downstairs now?—A. Well, it was off on the steps; 5 or 6 feet from the sidewalk. We went up the steps and went into a room. . : Q. Then, do you recall going up one flight of stairs and meeting a man in an office there?—A. I don’t recall that. ; Q. You don’t recall going upstairs and meeting a man and having a talk with him about this bill?—A. No. : Q. You were down there to push through this bill, were you not !— A. I don’t know as to push it through. Q. To assist in pushing it?—A. To assist. : ; Q. And you left while the bill was under discussion, did you not ?—A. Yes, sir. ; Q. Was there any understanding, or was there any conversation at the time regarding the bill, that it should be reported favorably, do you know?—A. At that time I think that was the talk. Q. What took place there, if you can recall?—A. When I met Mr. Nabel? There was nothing only just what I spoke about. He said he was in favor of it. He said it was a very nice thing. Q. Who was this Nabel?—A. I think Mr. Henderson introduced him as the Assistant Attorney General. Mr. Grauam. What Henderson is that? Daniel B. Henderson, of Washington, a lawyer? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Q. Can you recall the provisions of that bill?—A. Well, it was to appoint three men, but I can not recall the whole of it. Q. To appoint three men for what purpose?—A. To classify the Indians on White Earth Reservation. Gand who were those men to be?—-A. I don’t know. I can not recall. Q. Was one man to be the Chippewa commissioner ?—A. Oh, yes. Q,. And how were the others to be selected ?—A. I think one from the Interior Department. Q. And the other?—A. I think one was to be a member of the reservation. Q. Was there not some objection by this man you speak of ?—A. He didn’t make any objection at that time. He spoke very favor- ably. Mr. Grorcz. You mean Mr. Nabel? The Wirness. Yes. The man I was talking to. Q. Do you say positively it was Mr. Nabel, or was that a sugges- tion made to you.—A. No; I met this man Nabel. Q. Didn’t the person that you talked to object to the bill because the Chippewa commissioner, as you stated, and the person who would be selected by the Indians would stand together as against the department ?—A. I don’t think he said that; not in my hearing. Q. Not in your presence?—A. Not while I was there. Q. Wasn’t it understood, or was it not agreed, that the Chippewas would not be allowed, by the terms of the bill, to be represented in the commission, and in lieu of that a Department of Justice man would be placed on it?—A. Well, he made some suggestion in regard to the matter in that way. Q. And didn’t Mr. Henderson amend the bill in that manner ?— A. I think he did; yes. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1539 _ Q. And did you not then, immediately following that, leave Wash- ington?—A. Yes, sir: after the bill was amended. After Hender- son framed that bill; I left immediately after that. Q. You, left there because you believed the bill, as Henderson had amended it—at the suggestion of this person—that it would be fa- vorably reported?—A. Yes. ae ao it would become a law by Congress?—A. That is what I ought. _Q. And that was your reason for leaving immediately ?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it not understood that I was also to leave in a day or so?— A. Yes; you were going South. Mr. Beavurev. That is all. Mr. Burcu. No questions, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Grauam. That is all, Mr. Campbell. You are excused. CuarENcE R. BEeaviinv, sworn, testified as follows: Examined by Mr. Granam: Q. Give your name to the reporter.—A. Clarence R. Beaulieu. Q. Where do you live, Mr. Beaulieu?—A. At White Earth. Q. You have lived there all your life?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What relation are you to Mr. Gus H. Beaulieu?—A. He is my uncle. Q. What is your father’s name?—A. Theodore H. Beaulieu. Q. What is your present occupation?—A. At present I am not doing anything. Q. How long since you have done anything?—A. I worked for Mr. Gus Beaulieu as an accountant prior to his case at Fergus Falls. Q. An accountant in what respect, in reference to his newspaper business ?-A. In reference to the records here at the courthouse. Q. Well have you a regular occupation?—A. Within the last year I have not been employed regularly. : Q. Well, before that?—A. Before that, in 1907, I worked in the Government service. ~Q. In what capacity; in the Indian Department Government serv- ice?—A. As teacher and as clerk. Q. Teacher in the day school out there at the agency?—A. Yes; teacher at the Pine Point School and as clerk in Oklahoma. Q. Have you done any work, or have you had any business apart from your Government employment and the other work that you told us of 2—A. No, sir. . \ Q. What education have you?—A. In 1907 I attended Hamline University, in St. Paul, three years. Prior to 1900 I took a prelimi- nary education at the White Earth Catholic School. Q. You are an allottee, of course?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You still retain your allotments?—A. No, sir. ; Q. Have you parted with all of your land on the reservation ?—A. Yes, sir. . Q. Do you own any property now?—A. Not at White Earth. Q. Somewhere else?—A. Yes. Q. Where?—A. Oregon. Q. Real estate?—-A. Yes. 1540 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. How much, Mr. Beaulieu?—A. Why, I am interested in some timber land there. Q. Have you to-day as much property as your allotments would have made if you still had them?—A. I don’t think so. Q. In handling the property that you got through the Govern- ment, you have handled it so that you lost rather than gained?—A. Why, I attended the University at St. Paul three years and that took considerable money, and I didn’t get any prize claims either. Q. Well, do you feel that you have preserved the value of your allotments in other property except the amount you spent for your education?—A. Why; ‘yes. Q. Is your Oregon property productive? Does it yield you any profit?—A. Why, it is timber land, and it is supposed to yield as years go by. It is in a good location. Q. How much have you of it?—A. Why, at the time I bought the land, I paid 35 cents a thousand feet and I have invested $700 in it. Q. How do you estimate land at 35 cents a thousand feet? This is timber land?—A. They don’t estimate it any other way. Q. How do you know how much area you are getting when you buy that way?—A. Per thousand feet? ‘ Mr. Grorcz. Do you mean a thousand feet of standing timber? The Wrirwness. Yes. Q. How do you know how much land, how much area you are buying that way?—A. They don’t buy timber by the acre out ‘there. Q. Then you don’t own the land?—A. I own the timber and land, too. . Q. I don’t understand. How much land have you?—A. Approxi- mately 500 acres altogether that is owned by us, myself and father and brother. Q. Those interested with you2?—A. Yes. Examined by Mr. Bravutiev: Q. You are a temperate man, are you not?—A. Yes. Q. Your habits in regard to drinking and use of tobacco and all that are very temperate? In fact, you don’t use liquor, do you?— A. No, sir. : Q. You are competent to hold a position in the Government service and have you ever been in the classified service?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you now holding a position which was created by a coun- cil, for which you receive no pay?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What is that position?—A. A member of the board of educa- tion. Q. How many members are there on that board?—A. There were three members appointed. Q. Are any of them receiving pay?—A. Not that I know of. Q. What are supposed to be the duties of that board ?—A. Why, to look after the schools generally, and see that they are conducted in an efficient manner. ; _ Q. Anything else?—A. Why, I think I have included everything in a ey or ‘ z . o are the other members of the board?—A. Mr. Warren and Mr. R. J. Libby. ntl Q. Are they graduates from any school?—A. Why, I heard that Mr. Warren graduated at Carlisle, And Mr. Libby also. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1541 oes Q. Now, do you know of any reason why such a board should be ' “established on the White Earth Reservation?—A. Why, I sincerely believe that all positions can or should be held by Indians on the - - reservation. * Mr. Granam. By Indians you would include all persons having any Indian blood? The Witness. Yes; I don’t make any distinction between a mixed blood and a full blood. Q. But, then, is there any reason why a board should be estab- lished? Do you know of any?—A. Yes. Q. I wish you would give your reason.—A. I think such a board would be more economical. Q. In what way?—A. Why, this board was created a year ago; this authority extended throughout the State of Minnesota. Q. This authority as a board? What was it to do?—A. To look after the schools—education. = Was it not to investigate the condition of the schools?—A. Cer- tainly. Q. Well, was it to find out whether or not the teachers were doing their work properly ?—A. Sure. Q. Was it not to find out also whether there were more teachers than were absolutely necessary in these schools?—A. Certainly. Q. Was it not to see that the schools were properly kept up in every manner?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it not also for the purpose of trying to secure the employ- ment of competent Indians who were capable of doing the work?— . Yes. we Wherever the tribal funds were used to pay the salaries?—A. es. : Q. Do you know anything about the sales of allotments on the White Earth Reservation?—A. No; I was down in Oklahoma—oh, sales of allotments? Q. Sales?—A. Why, no; I couldn’t say that I do know about the sales of allotments, except from hearsay. Q. Did you sell your allotment?—A. Yes. Q. Was it beneficial to you or not?—A. I think it was beneficial to me. Q. Was the sale of the allotments on White Earth Reservation beneficial generally to the young men who wanted to make proper use of their money?—A. Yes, sir. ; Q. Are there not a great many Indians who made proper use of their money?—A. Yes, sir. ; : Q. Is there not a doctor in Minneapolis!—A. Yes; he is a dentist. Q. What ‘is his name?—A. Oscar Davis. ; Q. Has he not made a good doctor?—A. Yes; so I am informed. Q. And he got his education from the funds he received from the sale of his allotment, did he not?—A. Yes. Q. You know that?—A. Yes. : Q. And didn’t quite a number of other young men attend schools at different places, especially at commercial colleges, on the funds they received from the sale of their allotments?—A. Yes, sir; and young girls also, I think. 2 1542 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. Now, didn’t that result in a desire on the part of the Indians to give the yourig people a chance for higher education?—A. Well, some of them took advantage of the opportunity. ; Q. Didn’t the Indians pass a resolution in council to give young boys an opportunity to obtain a higher education and to pay for their tuition while they were getting it?—A. Do you mean in that particular council which elected the school board ? Q. Yes.—A. Yes; something was said about that. Q. And was not the result of this effort on the part of the young men who sold their lands to get an education?—A. Well, now, I wouldn’t know whether that would be the result of their efforts in obtaining an education in that particular instance; I couldn’t say. Q. What was your object in attending the university ?—A. I took two years of the academic course at Hamline University. Q. Wasn’t that with the object of becoming a physician?—A. That was my first intention. Q. And why did you abandon that idea?—A. Why, I didn’t have sufficient funds to complete the course, and saw that I would not have, and also I though that the course would take too long a time, considering my age. Q. Weren’t a number of other young men placed in similar cir- cumstances as yours?—A. I think so. Mr. Bravuiev. That is all. Mr. Burcu. No questions. e Examined by Mr. Linnen: Q. Mr. Beaulieu, are you now in the classified civil service?—A. Why, no. I understand if you are not in the service a year that you are out of the classified service. Mr. Granam. That is, if you go out of the service for a year or more you are dropped from the classified list? The Wirness. Yes; you are dropped from the classified list. Q. Why did you leave the Government service?—A. I resigned sor the express purpose of attending school, which I did the next all. Q. Who appointed this board of education of three members, of which you are a member?—A. The appointment was made at the council held a year ago at White Earth. . Q. Was that a general council?—A. Why, it was as general as any council could be, I expect. It was held in the spring; notices were sent out, and there were probably 50 members present. Q. Was it a council called by the Indian agent?—A. No; it was not a council called by the Indian agent. Q. What has your school board accomplished? How many schools have they visited and to whom do they report 2—A. Why, they have not done much work. It is for inquiring into the school matters. Q. Do they visit any of the schools and schoolrooms and investi- gate conditions?—A. Why, I have not. I have been to the White Earth school occasionally. Q. How many times?—A. Why, I have probably been there on an average of once a week. Q. Did you visit the schoolrooms during school sessions?—-A. No: I never visited them while they were in session. : WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1543 Q. Now, you state that young men allottees sold their lands for the purpose of getting a higher education; doesn’t the Government provide for the education of Indian pupils?—A. In a way it does; yes. Q. Does it not provide good schools, such as Haskell, Carlisle, Flandreau, and numerous others where higher education may be obtained ?—A. Well, I have been informed that it is not the policy of the Government as the guardian of the Indian to give the Indian a higher education. Q. Do you not know that all Indian pupils who are far enough advanced are sought by the Government to attend these schools where higher education can be secured ?—A. I think so. Mr. Granam. Perhaps you gentlemen may not agree as to what higher education means. One may have in his mind purely intel- lectual training and the other may have in his mind intellectual training mingled with an industrial education. Q. Well, I will add where both intellectual and industrial training may be secured, and has it in this sense I have named. (No answer.) Mr. Grorer. Repeat the question. Q. Is it not a fact that the Government is anxious to secure the pupils who are far enough advanced to attend the schools, such as Haskell, Carlisle, Flandreau, and other schools where higher edu- cation may be obtained, both intellectual and industrial?—A. Why, I don’t quite understand what you mean by higher education in these schools. Do you mean that the course prescribed by the Indian Department, say to the eighth grade—I think that is as high as they go—and a trade constitute higher education ? Q. Don’t you know that some of these schools go higher than the eighth grade?—A. I do not. - f Q. Do they not fit the pupils for college education?—A. No, sir. Q. The university?—A. No, sir. Q. That is as you understand it?—A. As I understand it. Mr. Granam. But even if they did, that would not quite be higher education. It would be only leading to higher education, so called. Q. What percentage, in your judgment, of the young people allot- tees on the reservation sold their land and used the proceeds for this higher education that you speak of?—A. Well, I couldn’t answer that question, for I don’t know. ; Q. Are there as many as 50 per cent on the whole reservation who have done that?—A. No, sir; I don’t think there are. Examined by Mr. Beavtiev: Q. Are there not a large number who have been educated from the funds that they have received at White Earth from the sale of their lands?—A. In schools? Q. Who used those funds for that purpose?—A. Why, I wouldn’t say that there was a large percentage of them. : Q. Didn’t your brother apply for admission to Carlisle school ?— A. Yes. Q. What was the result?—A. Why, they refused him admission on the ground that he was too old to attend school. Q. How old was he?—A. Why, he was 28. 1544 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. Did he not make an application to go to Carlisle for the pur- pose of attending Dickinson College?—A. Yes; and they said he was too old to go to school. Mr. Gzorcr. I don’t know enough about Dickinson College to lmow the significance of that question. What does it signify? Mr. Bravuiev. At Carlisle, sometimes they admit boys there who will attend Dickinson College, which is right near by the school, who may obtain an education in that way. Mr. Gzorcr. What is that, a preparatory school ? The Wirness. It is a law college. Mr. Bravuiv. It is a law college and they help them to prepare, within a few years, in that way. Mr. Granam. Now, the question is, Mr. Beaulieu, is Carlisle usually filled to its capacity ? The Witness. Well, I couldn’t say. I have never been there; that is, I have only been there once. Mr. Grauam. If it is and they had to choose between a boy 14 and : man of 28, don’t you think it would have been better to choose the oy ? The Witness. Yes; excepting boys—they have accepted boys since then, I understand. Mr. Grauam. Well, but did they accept anyone 28 years of age, or nearly that, since? . The Wirness. Yes; they accepted last year a boy of the same age. Mr. Brauuisev. Yes; they accepted last year a boy of the same age as Frank Beaulieu. Mr. Granam. What age is that? Mr. Braviiev. Somewhere between 25 and 30. They accepted a young man from the Red Lake Reservation. Q. Now, is that school board of which you are a member not handicapped on account of the lack of authority to go into the schools and investigate?—A. I expect so. ; Q. You have no legal authority to go there and look after the em- ployees?—A. No, sir. Q. You simply go there, and if the principal is willing to let you look through you do so, and if not you don’t do it?—A. That is right. Q. And isn’t that one of the reasons why you have not been there in your official capacity as a member of that board?—A. Well, that would be one reason. Probably another reason would be the lack of funds to carry on visits to other schools around the State. Q. You couldn’t go to Pine Point or to Beaulieu without having some money, or expending some money rather, for expenses?—A. No. Q. And for that reason your board does not feel like doing that, does it?—A. That is right. Q. And now when that council was called, the agent was not pres- ent, was he?—A. No. Q. Whenever Indians call a council, do they usually recognize the agent’s right to call that council, or do they call it themselves ?—A. Why, I expect that when the Indians first called a council there was not any agent present, so I would not say whether they have changed their policy since or not. Q. I mean the Indians themselves, I don’t mean the policy of the Government.—A. That is what I mean. The policy of the Indians. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1545 .. Evcrnr J. Warren, sworn, testified as follows: Examined by Mr. Granam: Q. Your full name, please?—A. Eugene J. Warren. _ Q. Where do you live?—A. I live at White Earth. ‘ Q. In the village?—A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you lived there on the reservation?—A. I was born there and have lived there ever since, with the exception of about three years after I got through school I left there. * Q. What is your age?—A. Thirty-one. Q. You had an allotment, of course?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have any but the original and additional allotment which each Indian got?—A. That is all. - Q. You got none by inheritance or otherwise?—A. No, sir. Q. Do you retain your allotments?—A. No, sir; I have sold all my allotments. Q. Did you get reasonable prices for them?—A. Yes. sir. _ Q. What did you get?—A. Why, I had agricultural land that I sold in 1907, I think it was, for $800; and I had sold my pine allot- ment for $14,500. Q. What educational advantages have you had?—A. I attended the reservation schcols and I attended the school in North Dakota, and I afterwards graduated at Carlisle in 1901. _ Q. What is your present occupation, Mr. Warren?—A. Why at present I have charge of the post office at White Earth, and run a little store in connection with it. ’ Q. What business have you been in, if any?—-A. After I sold my allotments, I left the reservation and went into various kinds of business; among other things, I went into the telephone business. ' Q. Private telephone lines?—-A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you any special training for that kind of work—A. No, sir; not-specially. ~ Q. You are not in that business now, are you?—A. No, sir. Examined by Mr. Bravurev: Q. Mr. Warren, you are strictly a temperate man, are you not?— A. Why I would say I was; yes, sir. Q. You are capable of filling a position in the school service on the reservation ?—A. Why, I served three years in the civil service. Q. Are you capable of filling a position in the department office on the reservation ?—A. I never did that work; I don’t know whether I would be or not. I couldn’t judge for myself. ; Q. Are you a member of the board that was appointed by the council at Red Oak?—-A. Yes, sir; I was present and was elected to that board at that time, Q. What are the duties of that board?—-A. Why, as near as I could understand at the time we were elected, and as near as I could find out since, it would be the duty of the board to look after the using of the funds that were appropriated for educational matters and the relief of the Chippewas, and to recommend anything that might occur to us or that was not being done right, recommend to the Secretary of the Interior. I think that was about what we were expected to look after. 73822°-——H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——3 1546 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. And you were to look after the interests generally of the Chippewas of Minnesota?—A. That was my understanding. Q. -Was it not also for the purpose of seeing that not.too many employees were being employed?—A. It was the purpose to econo- mize and to see that the schools were properly carried on, and that efficient help was employed. : Q. Do you know any other purpose for which the board was ap- pointed?—A. Why, of course, inasmuch as we never had the legal authority to act, we never planned any special line of work and never had anything laid down for us, only what we talked about, or heard talked about, at the council at the time that we were ap- pointed; but it was also my understanding, as we were interested materially and the Indians were interested materially, that it would be to our advantage to look after the interests of the Indians in re- gard to the expending of moneys appropriated for their purposes . on the reservation. Q. They should see what moneys were spent there every quarter and how much of that money, and for what purposes?—A. Yes, sir; and to see that the Indians got value received as far as possible. _ Q. And the whole matter of the appointment of that board was to economize, was it not?—A. Yes; it was in a way. Q. And to prevent the waste of Chippewa money?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think that would be a good method to prevent the wasteful expenditure of Chippewa funds?—A. Why, owing to my experience in Government matters, of course, taking it from the Indian’s standpoint, as a student in Indian schools of course I be- came familiar with the methods of the Government in handling children and carrying on their work in schools, and, of course, after I graduated and became an employee I naturally was carried over to the other side, and it has been my experience and my observation to learn that under the present system, under the Government’s method at the present time, it is impossible to give the Indian chil- dren the right kind of education or give them what they should get. It seems it is impossible to get efficient teachers, teachers who are capable and have received special training, and consequently they are not getting the same benefits that the children are getting in the public schools. Q. You have looked into the expenditures in regard to the schools to some extent on the White Earth Reservation, have you not?—A. Why, I have had occasion to do so at times; yes, sir. Q. And occasionally you were temporarily in charge of the White Earth boarding school, were you not?—A. I was at one time; yes, sir. Q. And did you see any way in which economy could be-practiced there?—A. Why, yes; in a great many ways. Q. Did you see any necessity for a school farmer outside of the disciplinarian?—A. Why, I couldn’t say exactly as to that. I would depend a great deal upon what the Government intended to carry out. If they intended to make a specialty of industrial training, [I should think they would need a farmer who would teach the chil- dren to farm. If they didn’t intend to make a specialty of farming or industrial work, I don’t think they would need any. ° Q. Do you not think that a man could be obtained at White Earth who was sufficiently informed regarding manufacturing and ‘ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1547 farming on the White Earth Reservation?——A. I think that would be Oa yes. - And do you not think that other employees could be obtained there among the Indians?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you not think that every position upon the White Earth Reservation could be filled by members of the tribe?A. I think it would be possible. Q. And do you not think it would be encouraging to the other Indians, to the young Indians who have not graduated from any schools, to continue attending school with a view to securing employ- ment after they got home?—A. I think that would be an inducement. Mr. Granam. Mr. Beaulieu, I wish you would give Mr. Warren a chance to tell the committee his own views on these points, instead of framing the questions so that all he has to do is to just merely give his assent to your propositions. He is educated, and is quite capable of giving his views, and I wish you would ask him to do it, and give him a chance. Mr. Beavuuiev. Of course; I will be glad to do so. Mr. Grauam. You discount the force of his answer almost 50 per vent by the way you put the question. He just falls into your way of thought, and we don’t know how forcibly he means it; but if he would give us his own views we would understand that they were his views and not yours. Mr. Bravrarv. I am only following what Mr. Burch did in estab- lishing a precedent. Mr. Granam. I don’t agree with you in that, and I may say to you now that you should not follow all the bad precedents. Follow the good precedents and not the bad ones. Mr. Bzautrev. I think that I should have the same latitude. Mr. Granam. I think you have had twice the latitude, and I am very tired of hearing your remarks to the contrary. I think any fair-minded person, who has attended these hearings, will say that you have had tremendous latitude, and it is ungrateful for you to make the remarks that you do along that line. Mr. Bravuiev. I don’t make these remarks with any intention of refiecting against the committee. Mr. Granam. But it is a reflection, whether you mean it or not. Mr. Beavuuieu. I don’t so mean it, but I want to remind the com- mittee that I would like to have the same privileges granted to me that were granted to Mr. Burch. - Mr. Granam. You have had every privilege he has had and many more, and for this reason: You are not a lawyer; you do not clearly know what you want to bring out; you have at times floun- dered around like a fish out of water, and the committee has listened to you sometimes when the work you were doing seemed absolutely pointless, and bore with you, because you didn’t have the advantage of the training which Judge Burch has had in preparing cases and presenting them; and we have been exceedingly patient with you and shall continue to be; but I think it is ungrateful that you should refer to our indulgence to you in the way that you do. ; Mr. Beauuizv. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am going to say right here, since you have given me this opportunity, that I have against me five attorneys, attorneys from the Department of Justice, who have been trained to prosecute these cases, to prosecute any case, especially 1548 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. trained in that line. I am here, and I am not an attorney; the Indians are not being represented by attorneys here. We find, in addition to these men who have represented the Government—Mr. Linnen here, who has had a great deal of experience, and he can go right ahead and ask these questions, and, of course, they have an advantage over me. I am all alone against five men. Mr. Grauam. Who are they? ; : Mr. Breavuiev. And I rely upon the committee to put me right. 1 know very well that I make mistakes, and I think that the committee eught to indulge me. Mr. Grauam. The committee has indulged you. . Mr. Beauuiev. Yes; and with all these men against me—— ' Mr. Grauam. Where are the five? Mr. Beavuiev. Mr. Burch, Mr. Cain, Mr. Linnen, Mr. Hinton, Mr. Long—they are all here, they are consulting with each ather con- stantly ; Maj. Howard, Mr. West, and Mr. Harper—they are all under the oe of the Government, getting big salaries to do this Wor. Mr. Grauam. That statement is far from correct. Mr. Hinton has not in any way interfered in this matter; Mr. Howard has not inter- fered in it; Mr. Cain has had very little to do with it, indeed. Judge Burch has conducted the examinations mainly from that side of the question. And some of these gentlemen you speak of, so far as I know, are not lawyers. On the other hand, you have had assistants; the committee specifically said to you at the very beginning of our sessions here, that you could have any friends you desired to stay by you, suggest to you, and advise you, and you have taken advantage of it often. You have had your brother; you have had Mr. Carl; you have had anyone you chose. . Mr. Beavuiev. Well, we have not the United States Treasury back of us. We have nothing. We have even got to pay our own ex- penses. 2 Mr. Grauam. I don’t see that that makes a bit of difference. Mr. Beavutrev. Well, if I were allowed to employ an attorney, | would have an attorney to represent me here and represent the tribe. Mr. Granam. You have the United States Treasury back of you, im a sense, you have given the committee a list of such witnesses as you have wished, aggregating 50 to 75 in number. Mr. Bravuiev. Not nearly as many Mr. Granam. All you have asked for. Mr. Beavuiev. Yes. Mr. Granam. They have been here at the expense of the United States Treasury waiting for weeks, some of them, to be called on. Everything you asked was done promptly and cheerfully. Mr. Bravuiev. So far as that is concerned I have nothing to say, so far as the committee is concerned about complying with my re- quests for witnesses; but you must see that I have worked at a dis- advantage, because I am not a trained lawyer. ‘Mr. Granam. I do see it. Mr. Beautieu. I am not a trained lawyer, and they are trained lawyers. Mr. Burch is Assistant Attorney General, and he also has other assistants here who are attorneys. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1549 Mr. Grauam. Well, now, going back to your point. I wish you would get Mr. Warren’s own views on the subjects about which you were asking him. Ask him to give his views. : Mr. Beavutrev. Well, I have asked him to give his views. I want you to understand, Mr. Chairman, that from now on I am not here to have this committee pass upon me, whether I have been at fault in this matter. I was tried at Fergus Falls, and I was exonerated there. I am not here to get an exoneration from this committee, because I don’t recognize this committee’s right to pass upon any- thing that I have done. I simply come here to represent these In- dians. I came here to represent them at their request; that is the only reason I am here. I have nothing here to present to the com- mittee on my own behalf, because I have been exonerated, and I was exonerated at Fergus Falls; and when I was exonerated at Fergus Falls I regarded that as the end of anything that the United States had to do with me. Mr. Grauam. I do not understand why you make that statement at this time. Has anyone intimated that you are on trial here? Mr. Beauuievu. Why, yes. Mr. Granam. Who? Mr. Beavuurev. Do you not read the papers? Mr. Grauam. No; I don’t have time. Mr. Beavutiev. The papers called me the defendant in this case. Mr. Granam. I know; but I don’t care about the papers. Has any- one connected with the committee in any way intimated that you are on trial? Mr. Beavuwiev. I so understood at Minneapolis that I was the one that was being tried, practically. You said yourself that all these things were pointed at me—in my direction. Mr. Granam. And, therefore, that you had a right to be heard. But I didn’t say that you were on trial. I said very distinctly and specifically that we had nothing to do with the Fergus Falls matter; that we were not reviewing an opinion of the court; that we were in- vestigating conditions at White Earth, and nothing more. Mr. Beavuiev. I understand that; but has it not appeared to you that everything is directed to me, not against the agent or anyone else? The agent is being defended by the very men who should be prosecuting him. Mr. Linnen should be trying to bring out the facts against the agent, and matters that I have been trying to bring out, tnd I a member of the reservation. He should be sitting on this side and asking questions of the witnesses who appear here against the Indian agent and not acting as his attorney in the matter. . Mr. Granam. Well, Mr. Beaulieu, that is a matter of choice or judgment. It does not appear to me as you suggest. But it does ap- pear to me that you have been very much the most active man on the reservation ; that you are the editor of the paper there; that the paper has been exceedingly active in the discussion of every subject that arose there; and that any investigation at White Earth would neces- sarily involve you, in an incidental way, as this one has; and it has not been because you are Gus H. Beaulieu, but because you have heen identified with nearly everything that took place upon the reserva- tion; and to investigate White Earth conditions and leave you out of 1550 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the investigation would be to give the play of Hamlet and omit the character of Hamlet. . Mr. Beautiev. Well, I know that I have been: I could go on like a great many and ignore everything. I could leave here at this moment and ignore things; but I came up here to assist this committee to get at the bottom of facts regarding reservation matters, and for that reason I stayed, notwithstanding the criticisms that have been wade against me. I have said “we,” and you called me to account or it. | Mr. Granam. I lave asked you to explain who “ we” was. Mr. Beavtiev. At this moment I am going to file the authority under which we were acting. Mr. Grauam. You have promised that you would do so. Mr. Beavuiev. The authority under which we are acting; and the reason of the delay was this, that Mr. Carl has been unable to find the | Secretary, he was away somewhere and has been gone ever since. So, for that reason, we will not be able to put his name here. We will not be able to file this with his name, but this is a council proceeding which should have been signed by Mr. Carl and Mr. Brown and an interpreter. Mr. Grauam. The committee had no uneasiness about that at all. The committee asked you to do it, and you said you would. There was nothing further said or done about it. We had not any uneasi- ness on that score at all. When you came to the meetings, the first ones, at Minneapolis, you stated then that you and Mr. Carl had been selected by a council meeting to represent them during the hearings, and that you were ready todo so. Mr. Carl, in that connection, asked that a reporter representing him, and you also, I presume, be allowed to sit with us and take the testimony, and we cheerfully acceeded to that request, and Mr. Cameron has been with us, I am glad to say, every minute of the time since, and we will go on in just the same way to the end. But, really, Mr. Beaulieu, it is sometimes very annoying and it gets on my nerves a little bit, now and then, to see time frittered away on matters that are almost absolutely immaterial. Mr. Beavuiev. Well, possibly it may be considered immaterial; that is just where we are lame. We do not know where; if we had an attorney we would know how to proceed. Mr. Grauam. Well, now, for instance, what need was there, or what good in bringing three men or more to prove this matter about the schcol proceedings? Why, a mere statement by you or by anybody would have been quite as good as the testimony of three men who have been nearly three weeks waiting to testify on that point. Mr. Beavuriev. Well, I was doubtful whether my statement would be accepted. ' Mr. Graunam. Well, then, one witness would have done. ' Mr. Bravuurev. Well, it is not merely for the purpose of showing what the proceedings were, but Rudy Beaulieu has forgotten every- thing he knew about the reservation affairs and what he told me. Mr. Grauam. Well, I mentioned that, but that is not the only instance of its kind, but it is those things that sometimes make me impatient. My colleague never gets that way—but I do want to make better progress. Cari you proceed now with this witness? ' WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1551 Q. Mr. Warren, just go on in your own way; you have heard what the chairman wants?—A. Well, I would like to be guided a little. I don’t know what point you want me to talk on. I might string it along for an hour or more. Mr. Granam. Would you prefer to answer questions ? ge Wirnzss. Why, not especially; but let me know what you wish. Mr. Granam. Well, are there any particular points, Mr. Warren, that you would like to call attention to concerning White Earth matters ? Q. Mr. Warren, were you there when the allotting of lands took place?—A. Yes, sir. Q. I wish you would tell us about those allotments, how they took place.—A. I was employed at the Government school at that time, and, just as has been said here, on Sunday morning—I don’t remem- ber the date—the line started to form along about 9 o’clock in the morning, and I heard of it accidentally while I was at the school, and I got leave from the superintendent and went down to see what was being done. I saw the line was being formed and that it was possi- ble there would be two or three hundred there before the allotments took place the next morning, so I got in line. I think my place was about No. 30. I was about the thirtieth person in the line. We stood there all that night, and of course it was impossible—it being necessary to stand there to hold places—it was impossible to find out what was being done or talked about in the councils that were being held during that night and the next morning by the people who called themselves full-blood Indians. As a matter of fact, there were a great many mixed bloods who talked with these Indians and who united with them. Well, along before the allotments took place the next morning we heard that the Indians, or the other faction who refused to get in line, were going to attempt to break the line by force. They had guns, they had accumulated arms, and were going to be violent. And we were told by the policeman and dif- ferent parties that the line that had formed the day before would not hold; that the first person who got into the office would be al- lotted. Then we began to get uneasy and the line got weakened and somewhat broken and people got out into the crowd, until Mr. Michelet came out in front of the office and called attention to the fact, and said that the line that had formed would hold. Of course the line then got close in and became solid and more people lost their places. Some new people got into line and he made a statement that all Indians not in the line and who called themselves full bloods were to form on the opposite side of the gate, and they did so. As I remember, he stated that the mixed bloods or other people who had information in regard to allotments, and in regard to pine land, were to assist the full bloods in securing the allotments, and I re- member that I put in about two weeks securing minutes and looking over the land out on the reservation, and I secured about 50 or 60 tracts or minutes of pine land—that is, 80-acre tracts—and_ after this line had formed it got me down to about No. 60 or 61 (I have forgotten which it was), and by the time I got into the office most of the best pine—that is, that I had minutes on—was taken. But I succeeded in getting an allotment, and also for the Indian I went in with. I do not recall who he was at the present time, but he 1552 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. had no minutes and I gave him the benefit of what I had, and it was supposed that each one would do so wherever they had infor- mation. And after I got through and got my allotment I had in mind, of course, my extensive family, my brothers and sisters and relatives, who numbered 50 or 100, I suppose, who had formed in line, and I, with the consent of Mr. Michelet, was allowed to assist with what information I had in securing allotments for them. Most of them were girls or ladies and were unable to secure information, and knew nothing at all about the reservation, or rather the land, and I did the best I could in securing allotments for them. Of course after they were allotted, after the first day or two, I went back to work and knew nothing more about what happened. I do not know anything about the selling of the pine after it was taken, and in fact I was unable, after I secured this pine allotment, to sell it for, I think, two years or more after I secured it. Q. Do you know what followed that alloting, whether there was not a proposition to sell it under the Wisconsin plan?—A. Why, I remember after the allotments were made a special agent called Downs was sent up to investigate conditions, and it seemed as though he was inclined to be after Michelet. I thought he was trying to discredit the allotments that were made, and as I was working at the school I had occasion to meet Mr. Downs now and then, and he seemed to have the idea that the full-blood Indians were the Indians that were not able to secure information and did not get a fair deal, and he kept saying: “It is my duty and the duty of the Government to see that these Indians get a fair deal, and I am going to recom- mend that these allotments be canceled,” and with that in view, to secure good allotments for the full-blood Indians, he talked with the full bloods and talked with the ones that came to him and told them that if they would refuse to take allotments and not accept allot- ments under Michelet at that time, he would have the allotments can- celed and secure for them good allotments. Mr. Gzorcr. I want to know what he understood this Wisconsin plan to be. The Wirness. Why, it was—the way we understood it and the way it was done and talked all over among the more enlightened class or progressive element—that the Wisconsin men had secured the as- sistance of these inspectors and Government officials in getting these allotments canceled so that it would be impossible for them to secure timber all in a bunch; that there had been only two weeks’ notice, and with the knowledge that the Wisconsin ring had previously had the information on this pine, it was plain to be seen that the Wis- consin ring was attempting to try to get a monopoly on this piece of timber ; that was our idea, and of course the majority of the people that I would call the enlightened element or the progressive element. We did not have any special lumber company; all we had in mind was our exclusive families, and we wanted to get this land allotted so it would be possible for us to secure allotments of that timber and get personal control of it. Mr. Grorce. That is to say, you wanted to get the land allotted so you could sell the timber as you personally pleased ? The Wirness. Yes, sir; under the Clapp amendment. Mr. Gzorce. Rather than have the Government sell the timber and have the money go into the tribal funds? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1553 The Wrrness. Yes, sir. i ae Or, if not a tribal fund, then the money to be al- otted ? The Wirness. No; we did not want that. We wanted the land allotted so it would give us control. We did not want this pine sold, and we did not want it to go into the tribal funds. Mr. Georce. Your idea was to get control so that you could make your own bargain? The Witness. Yes, sir. : a Grorce. Is that what you understood the Wisconsin plan o be? The Witness. I understood it to be that they were going to secure this timber in bunches and divide the proceeds among the Indians. Mr. Grorcr. And what you wanted was to have the land allotted and then make your own bargain? The Wirness. Yes, sir. s, Mr. Grorcr. Not have the Government make the bargain? The Wirness. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. And not have the Government sell the timber? The Wrrness. No, sir. Mr. Grorce. You wanted to sell it yourselves? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. That was the Wisconsin plan—that is, where the Government was selling timber? The Wrrnzss. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorecr. And what did you call the other plan? The Witness. The allotting, securing control ourselves. We had in mind no especial lumber company; we did not want any plan out- side of the allotting of the timber and getting control of it. Mr. Granam. You understand, then, Mr. Warren, that owing to the very wide difference in the value of the 80-acre tracts it would be impossible to make any equitable division of the land. That some would get allotments worth twenty thousand or more, and others would be compelled to take allotments worth only one thou- sand ? The Wirness. Yes, sir, in a great many cases; where it was pos- sible for people who knew the conditions to get pine land they took agricultural land in preference in a great many cases. Mr. Granam. So far as real equity is concerned, the Wisconsin plan, converting the land or the timber into a common fund and then dividing the fund, would be far more equitable, if the division were made fairly? The Wrrness. If that were done and the division made and the money paid immediately, it would have been all right; but we did not like the idea of having these funds tied up indefinitely. _ Mr. Granam. Well, now, did the other feature have anything to do with it? That is—that there would be great inequality in the allotments ? The Wrrwnezss. No, sir. Mr. Granam. And that the wiser and brighter ones would be pretty sure to get the better allotments? : The Wirness. Why, that is true; but, of course, it was a chance. We knew there was just so much pine to be allotted and everyone kad the same chance, and it was simply a rush, that is all. 1554 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grauam. Well, is that quite true that everyone had the same chance? ‘Were not the initiated in far better position than the uniniated ? The Wrrnrss. Everyone had the same chance. Mr. Georcr. You had some knowledge. You state you gave some information concerning the timber lands to some Indians. : The Wrrness. Yes, sir; I secured that knowledge. I never was in the pine country in my life but two weeks before I went out to investigate. Mr. Georcr. But you did have better knowledge? The Witness. Yes; I secured those descriptions. Mr. Grorer. That is just the point I am making—there were some Indians, these full bloods, or mixed bloods, who had advantages over the other Indians? The Witness. Certainly; yes, sir. Mr. Gxorcr. So that some must have been favored and others not in such a division? The Witness. It depends entirely on whether they got out and hustled, that is all. Mr. Grorez. But the strong would have the advantage in the scramble ? The Wrirness. Well, it would depend on their efforts—the more enlightened ones. “Mr. Grorcr. Would they fare as equitably as if the Government sold the timber and then divided the money, Mr. Warren? The Wirness. I said if the money had been paid out immediately it zou have been satisfactory, but we did not want the money tied up. Mr. Grorcz. Did you make any outcry against that ? The Wirness. That is always the way, if the money is put into the Treasury. Mr. Grorgr. Did you raise that objection ? The Wrrness. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. You just took it for granted, if the land were sold in that way, the timber sold, if by the Government, the money would be tied up? The Wirness. Yes, sir. Mr. Grauam. And doled out a little at a time? The Wrrness. Yes; paying the expenses of the employees and teachers and very seldom getting any of that money; it is only $6 or $8 a year for the annuity, something like that. AFTERNOON SESSION. , Mr. Cart. Mr. Chairman, may I be permitted to make a little statement ? Mr. Granam. Go ahead, sir. Mr. Cart. Two of the witnesses here, who have appeared here at the instance of Mr. Beaulieu, have been approached by the members on the other side; that is, Mr. Nicodemus Hurr was approached by Mr. Dummert and was threatened that if he brought out certain facts, certain facts would be brought out against him. The object of my getting up here to make this statement was the wrongful act by a man whom we consider as one of the high officials conducting WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1555 this investigation upon White Earth matters. I refer to Mr. Long. After Mrs. Latourelle had testified here, which was very displeasing to Mr. Long, and was instructed by the chairman to go in there in that room and arrange for the fees, she was followed and deliber- ately called a liar by this man in the presence of the ladies. It was an insult—it does not make any difference where it is. I want that to go in the record. Mr. Granam. With reference to Mr. Hurr, was the language which you refer to used toward him before or after he gave his testimony ? Mr. Cart. It was before. Mr. Granam. Why was not that developed in the testimony ? Mr. Cart. I take that back; it was afterwards. Mr. Granam. When was it? Mr. Caru. I think Mr. Hurr could tell better than I could. It was after he testified. Mr. Granam. Well, I think Mr. Beaulieu brought that out in his testimony. Mr. Cart. Well, I have referred to that simply because it is the second time it has occurred. Eucene J. Warren, recalled. Examined by Mr. Bravuiev: Q. Do you know how much money the Indians have received for - their lands and timber up to date, that is, practically the amount?— A. Do you mean the amount at present in the United States Treas- ury to the credit of the Indians? Q. Yes.—A. Why, as I understand it, there is at present over $5,000,000 to the credit of the Indians. Q. Do you know how much the total amount has been that they have received?—-A. Between nine and ten million. Q. Have you received any benefit from that—from the difference of the amount that is in the Treasury of the United States and that that the timber has been sold for and the land?—A. Not any more than the yearly annuity, amounting from $6 to $9, and school facili- ties; that is, the right to go to school—attend an Indian school. Q. Now, Mr. Warren, I wish you would tell the committee what you know about the McLaughlin or, rather, the Wisconsin plan— the McLaughlin investigation or the Wisconsin plan. First, I think you had better tell about the Wisconsin plan, if vou know it—A. I am not familiar with the exact methods proposed by the Wisconsin pine companies in regard to buying the Indian timber. _ Q. Of course you know there was some fault found with the plan proposed at White Earth?—-A. Why, I think the plan proposed at White Earth was based on the records, and I think in the previous dealings with the Indians in Wisconsin it was very unsatisfactory. Mr. Gzorcr. In what way unsatisfactory ? : The Wrrness. Of course, I got this from hearsay; that is the only means we had at that time. We could not get to the records, but we understood that the money derived from the timber—there were certain unnecessary measures taken in regard to the building of the buildings for Government employees, and the building of automo- bile sheds, and such stuff as that, and that the scale was very poor, and that we did not get a fair deal on the scale of the timber when it was purchased. Those were the main reasons. 1556 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grorce. Did you have any exact information about that? | aie Wirness. I think there is a certain report that shows a little of it. Mr. Grorcz. What was that report? The Wirnzss. I think it was Mr. O’Neal’s report. Q. Was not that allotment of timber—that was disposed of and sold?—A. Yes; as I understand it. s Q. Well, I wish you would tell now about the McLaughlin— Mr. Gezorer. If you please, Mr. Beaulieu, do you mean the Wiscon- sin tbe Are you going on with the Wisconsin idea in that ques- tion ? Mr. Beavuiv. Yes, sir. It was the allotted timber; they did not a as tribal timber; all the Wisconsin timber is sold as allotted timber. Mr. Grorcr. Well, you objected to the application of that principle in Minnesota? The Witness. Yes, sir; I objected to anything that the Govern- ment had anything to do with in regard to the selling of timber. Mr. Georce. In your answers to me before luncheon you said you wanted the land allotted so that the allottee could sell his timber as he pleased. Mr. Breavuiev. I am going to introduce some other evidence at some time in regard to that for the reason—do you know anything about the McLaughlin investigation at White Earth? The Wrrnzss. I was at the time employed in the school. I did not attend the council called by McLaughlin, but I was familiar with what happened. Q. I wish you would explain in your own way what happened.—A. Why, it seems that after Downs and Davis—the two men that in- vestigated conditions there previous to the coming of McLaughlin— it seems that they were in line with the interests in Wisconsin and had a scheme by which they could get control of the timber, and of course we protested against it. All this has already been testified to. But Mr. McLaughlin was asked to go out and investigate and was sent. out by the Secretary of the Interior. He came to White Earth and saw the conditions, investigated, and gave notice for council at White Earth to decide what would be best to do. Whether to allow the allotments [the allotments had been canceled at that time], whether to allow them to stand as they were made by Agent Michelet, or whether to recommend their cancellation and reallotment, and as a majority of the people were in favor of the allotments made by Michelet when the vote was taken under McLaughlin at this council, the people who were not in favor of the allotments were defeated by a large vote. I don’t remember what the vote was, but Mr. McLaughlin made a report, and it was submitted, and the allotments stood as they were made by Michelet. Q. Do you know under what plan the full bloods wanted the allot- ments made, what their arguments were at that time2—A. The main argument was this: These people are easily influenced, especially by the Government officials. They will listen to a Government official when they won’t listen to anyone else. They were told that if they would oppose the allotments made in May they would see that they got the best allotment, that they would have the preference in re- allotments, and that was what the Indians objected to. ; WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 1557 Q. The full bloods would be allotted first?—A. Yes. . Q. And who next?—A. I think the mixed bloods, and the people that were in favor of the allotments would get what was left. _ Q. And the outsiders?’—A. There was talk that there would not be any left at all. _ Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Linnen represents certain ideas; and while we are perfectly good friends in this matter, we are not altogether in accord about some things, so I think I might have an opportunity properly from my point of view as representing particularly the Department of Justice, and Mr. Linnen might also have, I might say, his “innings,” or, if the committee does not wish to do so, I will defer to Mr. Linnen entirely. Mr. Granam. There is no reason why you should not ask questions. What we want to get at is relevant facts. It is not so much who brings them out as that we get them. Mr. Burcu. Generally, I am very well pleased with the witness’s testimony, very much pleased with it. Examined by Mr. Linnen: _Q. Mr. Warren, you say you are a graduate of Carlisle?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What branch, what course are you a graduate in?—A. Why, there is only one course. Q. I mean, did you take a normal course or business course?— Mr. Leurr. A presumption is perfectly fair, as it seems to me, if drawn from a man’s experience. The Cuarrman. I think you are substituting what you think he ought to have done for the presumption, but I speak of it as an in- ference. Is there anything in the result of the inquiry, in his reports or in your recollection, which justifies the inference that he was at any point but White Earth at that time? Mr. Levrr. I do not recall anything that distinctly suggests that. [After a pause.] Yes; I should say: The Cuatrman. That you were justified in presuming that he was at any other point? Mr. Lever. In presuming it? The Cuarrman,. Yes. Mr. Lzurp. From the man’s long experience and his familiarity with the Indian reservations. The Cuarrman. Which presumption would you think stronger— the presumption, from what you knew of him, he probably did go to other points or the presumption in which you would draw from the fact that if he did go to any other points, or the presumption which you draw from the fact that if he did go to any other point he never mentioned it? Mr. Lever. I should not think it was necessary to mention it. _The Cuarrman. You are too intelligent not to see the question and give it a responsive answer. Mr. Lzvrr. I am giving it to you the best I can. The Cuarrman. You are only making indirect comment on it about his capacity. “Which do you think the stronger presump- tion?” was my question. Mr. Lxvrr. I should think the stronger presumption was that he was, from his former experience, going more about the reservation. The Cuairman. Very well. I just wanted to see, as I said, how your mind operates. Your mind and mine do not operate alike. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2013 Mr. Lever. Evidently not. The Cuarrman. It seems to me very clear that with his experience as inspector, with his knowledge of what constituted evidence, and that if he had evidence to support his conclusions, he would pre- sent evidence; that if he had been at other points he would un- doubtedly state that fact in his report as supporting his conclusions, and then I am justified in presuming that if he did not state the fact, the fact did not exist. Mr. Leurr. And I think just as much, Mr. Chairman, even if he did not state the fact, that we should have a right to assume he had been—most people do certain things in a certain way. The Cuairman, Passing to the line of questions I had in mind, further down on page 811 you say: As to the second complaint, the instructions of July 6, 1905, to Special Agent se and Agent Michelet respecting the allotment of timbered lands are as 0 : “The allotments should be made in a fair and impartial manner to all the Indians, treating all classes alike—so far as the same can be done in the actual work of dividing the lands. There may be some inequalities because of the carrying values——” Mr. Levrr. I suspect it was “ varying” in the original. The CHarrman (continuing)— : “because of the varying values of the different tracts.” Now, the fact is there was not enough pine or timber land to give each Indian a timber or pine allotment, is it not? Mr. Lever. I do not know, sir. The Cuarmman. Assuming that to be the fact, and it is the fact, that the conditions here outInied in the instructions to Agent Downs and Agent Michelet were not followed, were they ? Mr. Leurr. I assume not, from that statement of what the testi- mony brought out. The Cuarrman. Assuming, I say, that there was not enough pine or timber land to give each Indian a pine or timber allotment, then these instructions were disregarded, because each Indian did not get a pine allotment or a timber allotment ? Mr. Levurr. I should judge not from the testimony. The Cuarrman. Do you not know that to be true, outside the tes- timony ? Mr. Levrr. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Do you know any reason why they should be dis- regarded ? r. Lever. No, sir. The CHarrman. The testimony shows that some of these 80- acre allotments with pine on them sold as high as $22,000, whereas the allotments which did not have pine or, indeed, any timber— some of them—were not worth more, at the time the allotting was done than, say $500, or possibly less. Now, such a division of the tribal land was dreadfully inequitable, was it not? Mr. Lzvuer. I should say so, from your statement of the case. The Cuarrman. You know, do you not, that my statement is sub- stantially true? : Mr. Lever. I could not tell, sir, because, as I say, six years have elapsed. I dare say at the time I knew something about it. 2014 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. Have you no knowledge of your own as to the relative value of the pine allotment and an allotment of rather poor agricultural land without any timber? Mr. Lever. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Is it not likely to be as I have stated ? Mr. Leupp. I should say so; yes, sir. The Cuamrman. There was evidence before us of the 80-acre allot- ments selling as high as $20,000, and even $22,000. ; Mr. Lever. That is when they were sold under the Clapp rider? The Cuairman. Yes. Mr. Leupp. I thought that the prices there did not signify very much, Mr. Chairman; I thought that was one of the objections that the committee had to that carnival? The Cuarrman. They signify a great deal. It might not show the exact condition existing at the time to which I referred, but they are significant. r. Lever. I should think, in case an unscrupulous speculator got hold of an ignorant Indian and got his land away from him, he might give him $1,500 or he might give him $2,000 for a piece of land that was worth in the ordinary market, in view of its timber possi- bilities, $20,000. ‘ The Coarrman. He was not apt to get more than it was worth; in assuming it sold for $22,000, I can assume it was fairly worth that. Mr. Levrr. It might be worth a great deal more. The Cuairman. I am not charging it to be worth more than that, but in showing the inequality you can not claim I am going as high as I might on the higher side. Mr. Lrurr. I should say that might be a subject of complaint. The Crarrman. On the other hand, we have much testimony that many of the 80-acre tracts are not worth more than $8 or $10 an acre. ‘These instructions were evidently an attempt to equalize those unequal conditions? r. Leurr. Why; yes, sir. The Cuairman. Why were not they carried out? Mr. Lever. I can not tell you. The Cuarrman. It is your business to know. Mr. Leupr. I was away while it was going on, you must re- member. The Cuatrman. The plan here suggested would do much to equalize by giving to the Indian only a 20-acre tract of timber, and giving him the other 60 acres where the land was less valuable? Mr. Levrr. Yes. The Cuarrman. That would do much to bring to an equality this gross inequality which was actually made in the allotment. Mr. Luvrr. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. And it was, as you say, primarily your duty to see to the enforcement of those instructions? : Mr. Lever. It was my duty, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. After you, whose fault would it be if you were so occupied that you could not attend to it and it was not done? Mr. Lxurr. I suppose my representative there; but I take the entire responsibility. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2015 The Cuatrman. Would that be Michelet? Mr. Lever. No; Maj. Larabee, I take it. The Cuarrman. Would Michelet be free from blame? Mr. Leurr. Michelet was the agent—I thought you meant who in the Indian Office. The CHarrman. I mean anywhere in the Indian Bureau, from top to bottom. Mr. Levurr. Field service and all? The Cuarrman. Anywhere; whose fault was it? Mr. Leurr. Whoever failed to report the conditions. ~The Cuarrman. Note what you say here in your letter to Mr. Wright [reading]: As to the second complaint, the instructions of July 6, 1905, to Special Agent Downs and Agent Michelet respecting the allotment of timbered lands are as follows: And then the instructions which I read. « Now, the second complaint, as you stated higher up on the same page, reads thus: That contrary to justice, and we are also informed contrary to the. direction of said commissioner, more than one valuable pine claim was allotted to mem- bers of the same family, in many cases every member of a family receiving pine claims. That was pretty specific, was it not? Mr. Lever. It was specific in a certain way, Mr. Chairman, but what I wanted was to have him name the families who got these things--who got the several pine claims, and so on. The Cuarrman. Very well. In the same letter you cite that com- plaint of his and you quote your instructions to Michelet and Downs as to what would have been much more equitable than what was done. That is pretty specific. Did you cause any examination or investigation of that to be made? Mr. Leupp. I could not tell you that, sir, from memory. The Cuarrman. The presumption—coming back to “ presump- tions ”—is that if you had,caused such a thing to be done you would remember it, because it would’ be pretty important ? Mr. Leupp. I should think so; yes, sir. The Cuarmman. Speaking of the “ acidity’ in the letter, let me call your attention to the middle of page 812 [reading]: Indians have acquired, in the proverbial literature of our day, the reputation. for making a gift or giving their consent to-day and wishing to withdraw it to-morrow. This is something which they are, of course, at liberty to do, but they must not expect that the other parties in interest will yield to their wishes. The white man’s way is to vote as he believes and then to consider himself bound by what he has done with entire freedom and with his eyes open. Now, Mr. Leupp, was not that exaggerating the situation there a little, especially the last sentence— The white man’s way is to vote as he believes and then to consider himself bound by what he has done with entire freedom and with his eyes open? When you revert that back to the McLaughlin so-called council, is it fair to say that the action taken by that council was taken by the Indians of the White Earth Reservation with their “eyes open”? Mr. Lever. The action taken by the Indians of the White Earth Reservation—those who stayed away from the council and those who did not stay away—“taken with their eyes open.” 2016 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. That is on the assumption that Mr. Leurr. That they understood there was to be a meeting. The Cuarrman. Upon what basis have you to claim that they had notice? Mr. Lever. There, again, I have to fall back upon what I have understood to be Maj. McLaughlin’s way; that is, to take as much pains as he could to get people together. The Canrrman. Would you think court evidence based upon such a presumption would be valuable? Mr. Levrr. This is not a case in court. The Cuarrman. It is as important to the Indians as a case in court. They lost their property through this action. ; Mr. Leupp. They lost because they, after the Clapp rider was passed, proceeded to waste what they had. The Cuatrman. They lost it in a more material way than that. The Indian who got an allotment worth $800 lost the difference be- tween that and the average value of allotments, which would be av very substantial sum. The Indian who got the minimum value in his allotment lost absolutely the difference between the value of his allotment and the average value of all the allotments, which would be a very considerable sum of money, so that it had the effect on him that a judgment in court depriving him of that much property would have, did it not? If it did not, explain why it did not. Mr. Lxzvrr. I should consider that, Mr. Chairman, still his own act, whether he was acting from impulse or from drink or from EEO it might be, if he sold for a trifle what was worth a good eal. The Cuarrman. Coming back to the basic fact, as again using a court by way of illustration, would a judgment rendered against you, men yee had no notice of dependency of the action, be a valid judg- ment ? : Mr. Lever. Well, I suppose not; no, sir. | The Cuatrman. Why should it be against the Indian ? Mr. Leupp. I do not know, Mr. Chairman, except that I can say this: According to your program for the Indian Office, it seems to me the only way the commissioner could ever assure himself that every Indian was notified of a move that was made in his behalf or against him would be to go out himself and carry to each Indian whatever notice was required. The Cuarrman. Oh, no. Mr. Leurr. He could have no other way, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. I do not quite agree with you there; and I would not go so far as to say that each Indian should have notice as a liti- gant in court would have notice, but I would go this far—that each Indian should have such notice as the citizen is required to have under the law of an approaching election. Mr. Leurr. That was what I assumed. The Cuarrman. Let us see if that was lived up to in this case, . skipping the rest of this letter—and there are many things in it which seem to me, Mr. Leupp, to be unnecessarily bitter—and I will ask you when I get through if you care to make such explanation as you choose to go in the record on that point? Mr. Leurr. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2017 The Cuarrman. But skipping that now, I come to page 813, where the statement of Maj. McLaughlin occurs, with reference to notice. You state in the sentence preceding the notice: The notice he issued is broad in its terms and as plain as simple English can make it. That is very good-so far as the notice is a mere English composi- tion; but you know, do you not, that it is not the literary style of a notice which makes it valid or invalid? Mr. Lever. The plainness of it has a great deal to do with it. The Cuarrman. What difference does it make, plain or involved, if the person for whom it is intended never sees it? Mr. Leuprr. That is the very point I raised a moment ago—that the only way that the commissioner could satisfy himself that every _ Indian had seen a thing of that kind would be to go out himself and carry it to each Indian. The Cuarrman. That is not answering my question. My ques- tion is, What difference does it make whether it is good or bad lit- erary style if the person for whom it is intended never sees it? It makes no difference, does it? Mr. Levee. It was not a question of literary style. The Cuarrman. Oh, yes; you are contending it here. Mr. Leurr. I spoke of it being perfectly plain. The Cuarrman. What difference does it make whether it is plain or not if the person to whom it is addressed does not see the thing? Mr. Lever. It would not make any difference. The Cuarrman. That is the answer to my question—it makes no difference. I will read it again [reading]: Waitt EartH AGENCY, Minn., September 18, 1905. The undersigned desires to, meet the Mississippi and Ottertail Chippewa Indians of the White Earth Reservation, Minn., in council on Monday, Sep- tember 25, 1905, at the hour of 1 o’clock p. m., at the White Earth Agency. All Indians interested in additional allotments of land under the Steenerson Act are requested to be present and participate in the council. JAMES MCLAUGHLIN, United States Indian Inspector. Now, what information had you—what information did Maj. McLaughlin give in his report as to how many places this notice was posted ; not as to how the information in it was carried to the various Indians throughout the reservation? ; ; Mr. Lrure. He mentions having posted this to the Indians. He says, “I arrived at the White Earth Agency on Sunday, the 17th ultimo.” : The Cuarrman. Where did you read that from? Mr. Lever. Page 120; in No. 10. The Cuamman. So that I may get it in the record. Mr. Lever. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Go on. Mr. Leupp (reading) : I arrived at White Earth Agency on Sunday, the 17th ultimo, and the fol- lowing morning mailed to each chief and leading Indian of those interested, also for posting in the post office at which the Indians receive their mail, the following notice. And there follows the notice. 2018 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. That is all the information you have as to the extent of its publication? Mr. Levurr. Yes, sir. : The Cuairman. It is true, is it not, that the Indians receive very little mail ? : Mr. Lzurr. Well, that depends on the Indians;.I do not know how it is on the White Earth Reservation. The Cuarrman. Were you ever in a post office at any of these laces? E Mr. Levrr. Oh, no; not in the White Earth. The Cuarrman. I am speaking of the White Earth only. Mr. Levurr. No, sir; I have not been in White Earth, except on my one visit, when I saw simply the agency ae office. ; The Cuarrman. Do you know how often the mail reaches Pine Point or Ponsford, the agency post office there? Mr. Levurr. No, sir. The CuHatrman. Do you know how much mail comes to that office ? Mr. Leure. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Are you prepared to say that every Indian fam- ily gets as much as a letter a year or one piece of mail a year through the post office ? Mr. Leupp. I told you, Mr. Chairman, I do not know anything about the conditions there. The Cuarrman. Then, you do not know anything about the mean- ing of this statement of his at all? Mr. Leurr. Only as I have said before, that with the confidence I had in Maj. McLaughlin’s personal integrity and his experience in Indian affairs, I assume that he must have done all that was nec- essary for that purpose. Now, I may be all wrong on that; I am simply giving you the reasons for my opinion. The Cuairman. Then you did not go by his report? Mr. Leupp. I went by his report, of course, illuminated by the fact of my knowing what the man’s experience had been. The Cuairman. Yes; but the fact is that that illumination was a great deal bigger than the report itself. Mr. Lzurr. Mr. Chairman, the only way I could have been as- sured of anything in his report to the effect that the Indians had all got this, would have been for him to follow the letter and see whether the Indians had received it, if he had done that. The Cuairman. Is not your statement a bit captious? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; it does not seem more captious than your questions. The Cuarrman. Do you mean it to be as literal as you made it? Mr. Lzvrr. I should say so; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. That there was no better way by which he could have convinced you that proper notice had been given the Indians - - unless he followed the letter to find out whether they received it? Mr. Lever. That is the only satisfactory way that I can see. The Carman. Did you ever hear of runners among the Indians? Mr. Levrr. Oh, yes. . The Cuairman. Would not that have been a fairly good way— would it not have been a better way than for him to follow the letter ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2019 Mr. Leupp. You could not have told whether the runners had done their duty. The Cuareman. I could have told that the man who had sent them had tried to do his duty. ie Lxurr. And he apparently tried to do his duty here in mailing these. The Cuarrman. Now, let us come back to this statement of his: I arrived at White Earth Agency on Sunday, the 17th ultimo, and the follow- ing morning mailed to each chief and leading Indian of those interested—— Is it not true that in your letter to Mr. Wright you scold him severely for presuming to be a chief? Mr. Lever. That is, of course, a matter of Mr. Wright’s—— The Cuarrman. Is it true? Mr. Lever. I do not know. The Cuarrman. Look at the top of page 814: I notice that to your signature you append the title “ Chief White Cloud of the Chippewa Indians.” Iam sorry that you did this, because you are a man of education and a religious minister, and you are supposed to represent the pro- gressive class of Indians. . Mr. Leurr. There is the explanation. The Cuarrman (resuming reading) : You know that the Government has for a number of years been trying to wean the Indians everywhere away from their old notions of the prestige and preroga- tives of chiefship, with a view of thus starting them on the road toward par- ticipation in popular government— and so on. Here is your inspector telling us that he mailed to each “chief.” How many did that signify? Mr. Lever. I do not know, sir. The Cuamman. And then you have little knowledge as to how many letters went out that way. Take the next point, “and leading Indians.” How many of those? Mr. Leupp. I could not tell you. The CuamMman. Those are the ones he wrote to and the only ones— the “chiefs” and “leading Indians”? Mr. Lever. Yes, sir. : The Cuamman. And you have not the slightest idea whether. that was ten men or a hundred? : : Mr. Leupp. I may have asked Maj. McLaughlin when I saw him afterwards about it; I could not be positive about that. The CHarrman. That would be a poor way to find out. The records should show notice; it should not depend on possible asking of a question. : Mr. Lever. How could it show notice? ; The Cuarrman. Let us come to that letter and I will tell yor how I think it should. Mr. Lever. All right, sir. : The CuarrmMan (reading) : Also for posting in the pust office at which the Indians receive their mail the following notice. How many post offices are there? Mr. Leurr. I do not know, sir. The Cuarrman. How many were there then? 2020 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Leupp. I could not tell you that. The Cuarrman. There were a few, were there not? Mr. Levupr. I could not say; you have a gentleman here who can tell you. ; The Cuatrman. We will have him later. The railroad where the towns on the reservation are runs through the west side of the reser- vation. There are very few Indians on that side of the reservation; it not that true? Mr. Lever. I do not remember. The Cramman. There is Wah-we-yea-cumig and another town north of it. The country around on each side of the railroad for the most part is settled by white folks? Mr. Lever. Yes, sir? The Cuairman. The Indians live mostly on the eastern side of ‘the reservation. Now, take a space of, sav, four or five miles on the east side of the railroad, tributary io the railroad; but all that portion of the reservation from 5 miles east of the railroad to the west line of the reservation cut as tributary to the railroad and as mostly white territory; consider only the rest of the reservation. How many post offices in the rest of the reservation as I have described it? Mr. Lever. I could not tell you, sir. The Cuarrman. There is one at Ponsford or Pine Point. There is another one at Elbow Lake. What is the name of the post office at Elbow Lake, Judge? Mr. Burcu. I could not tell you. The Cuairman. What is the name of the Indian after which it was named? Mr. Burcu. Wah-we-yea-cumig. The Cuatrman. Do you know of another post office on that por- tion of the reservation already described ? __ Mr. Levurr. I am not familiar with the post offices there, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. There are a great many Indians on that territory,. 36 miles long and 14 or 15 miles wide, who never go to those post offices. How would they have notice? Mr. Leurr. I suppose, as I said this morning, that the notice of those things spreads all over a reservation with remarkable rapidity. Thé Cuairman. And you presume that to be true to such an extent that you would deprive the Indian of the greater portion of his property by that presumption ? Mr. Lever. No, sir; they should not. The Cuarrman. That was what was done. Mr. Levurr. That may have been the result of what was done, as a matter of bad judgment. The Cuairman. Coming back again to this point: “All the notice they had, as stated by Maj. McLaughlin, leading Indian.” Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And you, as head of that bureau, had not the slightest idea how many letters that meant? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The Cuarrman. That in addition to that he posted or asked some- body to post in each post office a copy of this notice. You do not know how many post offices there were—whether it was only two or a few more than that? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2021 Mr. Lever. No, sir. The Cuarrman. But it was not many more than that? Mr. Lever. If you will pardon me, Mr. Chairman, I would sug- gest that Maj. McLaughlin is himself accessible and will give you all this information much more satisfactorily than I could. The Crarrman. I am trying to get at your point, and Maj. Mc- Laughlin could not help you in that. You acted on the information you had, and it is not for Maj. McLaughlin to say whether you should have done so or not. That very insufficient notice was given, and the next question is, When? The answer to that question is, seven days before the council. Now, how much notice is ordinarily given before the holding of a mere township election ? Mr. Lecer. I could not tell you, sir. The Cuarrman. Have you no knowledge of that? Mr. Levrr. None. The Cuarrman. It would not be less than 30 days, would it? Mr. Lxurr. That I do not know. The Cuairman.' Assuming I am right and that the statutes of the various States provide that at least 30 days’ notice shall be given before the holding of a mere local election, and that such notice is given by posting and pee and that it is given to persons who are civilized and intelligent and almost all of whom can read. If that much notice is required for the holding of an election for the transaction of rather unimportant business, would you say that seven days’ notice of this character was enough to Indians on the White Earth Reservation, where business of the utmost importance was to be transacted ? Mr. Leupp. I should think it ought to have been longer. The Cuamman. Thirty-two townships were involved. Mr. Leupp. I say I think it should have been longer. The Cuatrman. Do you think the action of a council, so-called, is entitled to any consideration whatever ? Mr. Lzvrr. I should not wish to dismiss it quite so sweepingly as that, Mr. Chairman. : The Cuarrman. Will you admit that it should be entitled to very little consideration ? read Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. I recognize the fact now; I think it was a mistake of judgment. : The Cuatrman. If there is anything you wish to say as to the tone and manner of the letters to Mr. Wright, you might say so, whatever it is, that it may go in the record. : Mr. Lever. I have not anything to say, Mr. Chairman, except that I had no bitterness in mind, to use your own expression. The Cuamman. “Acidity,” I believe, is the word I used. . Mr. Lxeurr. I had no purpose of being acid with him, but I did. want to be positive. ; The Cuarruan. And since I called your attention to that you have had no opportunity to read them; have you read them since they were printed here? : Mr. Leupp. I think this is what I read on the street car this morning. : ; : What I was going to call your attention to, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that in this letter to Mr. Wright, the part of it that deals with all 2022 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the formal features, was a regular office letter. The part where I begin my individual lecture to Mr. Wright Mr. Grorcr. You put that term on it? Mr. Leupp. Yes; because I intended it as such. I did not intend it to be acid, but I intended it to be very positive. I think it begins on page 812, “ In our conversation in this office you told me,” etc. Mr. Gzorce. In view of your later reflections and what you have said here, do you regard that tone as warranted ? Mr. Leupp. I can not tell, Mr. George, how that reads to another person, but knowing what I had in my mind at that time, I felt that it was perfectly justified; and the point of emphasis that I made there was as to the necessity of a man, even if he were an Indian, be- ing careful not to make sweeping and slashing statements, but to make specific charges, if he had any to make, that the office could act upon. That was the whole burden of that letter. I think the phrase- ology will bear it out. Mr. Burcu. Are the committee through? I would like to ask a question or two. [To the witness:] Had you any previous acquaint- ance with the Rev. Charles Wright or knowledge—that is, any pre- vious to the time when he appeared here for the purpose of pro- testing ? Mr. Leupp. I do not remember whether I had ever met him before or not. I knew him by reputation. Mr. Burcu. Where did you get that reputation? You have spoken of it several times, and I think I see the place here, and I would like to know where you got it. Mr. Leupp. I could not tell you, sir, any more than I could tell you how I know a number of men of this city by reputation. Mr. Burcu. This Maj. McLaughlin seems to have gone out of his way, as it seems to me, in this report made to you. Did you read that report? Mr. Leurr. I must have at the time; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I want to read to you, on page 125, series 10—it begins at page 120, but I read from the bottom, next to the last. paragraph of page 125, and following; and I want to see if it is not where you got Rev. Wright’s reputation [reading] : From my observations and what I learned while on the White Harth Reserva- tion, I feel quite certain there would have been no active opposition to the additional allotments made by Agent Michelet were it not for Rev. Charles Wright's attitude in the premises. Said Rev. Charles Wright is a member of the Mississippi Band of Chippewa Indians belonging on the White Earth Reserva- tion, but has resided at Leech Lake for the past 18 or 20 years, and is now stationed at Cass Lake as a missionary of the Protestant Episcopal Church. He is the oldest son of White Cloud, deceased, formerly head chief of the Mississippi Band of Chippewas, and claims the right of succession; but this chieftainship is held by William Wright, a younger son of the said White Cloud by another woman, to whom White Cloud was legally married after having separated from the mother of Rev. Charles Wright, and, as stated to me by Rev. Louis Manypenny, Protestant Episcopal missionary at Leech Lake, who was official interpreter at our councils, White Cloud chose his second son, William, to succeed him as chief, for the reason that he was the issue of a Christian marriage. It is also stated that White Cloud made a will leaving his chieftainship to his son, William Wright (see minutes of council, pp. 30 and 81); but be this as it may, the said William Wright is recognized at the agency as chief of the Mississippi White Earth Band, he being carried on the rolls as chief of that band. \ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2023 Notwithstanding that all of the interested Indians had due notice that Agent Michelet was going to begin allotments under the Steenerson Act on April 24, 1905, Rev. Charles Wright did not report at the agency nor apply for his addi- tional allotment until about two weeks had elapsed after the allotting had com- menced (see Rev. Charles Wright’s speech, minutes of council, p. 10); that he was not present at the allotting. From Rev. Charles Wright’s attitude throughout the recent council at White Earth Agency, and from what I learned of his agitation of this allotment ques- tion for the past three months, I am led to the belief that he is not so much opposed to the allotments made by Agent Michelet as he is desirous of being recognized head chief of the Mississippi White Earth Chippewas, and that he hoped by his agitation of this question to force such recognition from Agent Michelet and the Indians constituting said band. And whilst he did not make any very lengthy speeches in our councils, his sentiments being more frequently voiced by Peen-de-gay-ge-shig, a man of many words but little logic, who did more talking than any three of the other speakers, and it was evident that his speeches were made at the instigation of Rev. Charles Wright, as Peen-de-gay- ge-shig has no good cause for complaint, he having, as shown by the agency records, received his additional allotment and the identical tract which he had selected some weeks previous to the allotting. I was fortunate in securing as interpreter the services of Rev. Louis Many- penny, Protestant Episcopal missionary at Leech Lake, who is not a beneficiary of the Chippewa Reservations of Minnesota, and therefore disinterested in the controversy over these additional allotments, and he having been one of the official interpreters in our negotiations with the Mille Lacs Chippewas in August, 1902, was well known to me, and through him I talked to many of the full- blood Indians relative to this matter, from which talks, together with other evidences, I reached the conclusion that Rev. Charles Wright and Peen-de-gay- ge-shig were chiefly (if not entirely) responsible for the dissatisfaction which has existed among the Indians of this reservation over these additional allot- ments, and their following gradually deserted them during the council, so that, as hereinbefore stated, when the final vote was taken as to whether the allot- ments should stand as already made or be reallotted, there were but 5 votes in the negative, and 19 declined to vote, but withdrew from the council room, and ® of the latter were not entitled to vote on the question. TESTIMONY OF EUGENE BRUCE. Eucrene Bruce, having been duly sworn, was examined, and testi- fied as follows: Mr. Burcu. Your age? Mr. Bruce. 52. Mr. Burcu. Occupation? Mr. Bruce. Expert lumberman in the Forestry Service. Mr. Burcu. Your residence? Mr. Bruce. 14 Rhode Island Avenue, Washington, D. C. Mr. Burcu. Do you know Mr. Leupp? Mr. Bruce. Yes. Mr. Burcw. Where did you first become acquainted with him? Mr. Bruce. I should say sometime about 1903 or 1904, while he was Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Burcu. I believe he was not commissioner until the 1st of. January, 1905, he states. Mr. Bruce. Well Mr. Burcu. It was not until after that date? Mr. Bruce. It was while he was Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Burcu. Are you acquainted in northern Minnesota? Mr. Bruce. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you have anything to do with the Forestry Serv- ice in northern Minnesota prior to that time? Mr. Bruce. Yes. 2024 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. You had to do with the forestry lands in that region? Mr. Bruce. Yes; under the Morris bill. Mr. Burcu. Under the Morris act. Did you at one time go upon the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Bruce. I did. an Burcu. Did you go there with reference to looking over the ine ? Mr. Bruce. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. For whom? Mr. Bruce. Under the directions of Mr. Pinchot. Mr. Burcu. Oral or written or telegraph? Mr. Brucs. Telegraph, I believe. Mr. Burcu. Had you up to that time seen Mr. Leupp about it? Mr. Bruce. I had not. Mr. Burcu. Can you recall what your telegraph instructions were? Mr. Bruce. Not exactly. Mr. Burcu. In substance? Mr. Bruce. In substance, Judge, I was to go there and examine the timber and see what the quality and the bid value of that timber would be and report in person at Washington. Mr. Grorcr. To whom? Mr. Brucr. Mr. Pinchot. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Pinchot ? Mr. Bruce. Yes; and through him to Mr. Leupp, I suppose. I imagine it was done under Mr. Leupp’s direction. : Mr. Burcu. Was that done to have that a confidential mission ? Mr. Bruce. No. : Mr. Burcu. By the telegram ? Mr. Bruce. No. Mr. Burcu. No direction of that kind? Mr. Bruce. I do not think so, not as I recollect; at least it was not so carried out. Mr. Burcu. You went? Mr. Bruce. I went. Mr. Burcu. Did you know Edward Warren? Mr. Brucs. Very well. Mr. Burcu. Did you know that he was connected with the Nichols- Chisolm Lumber Co. at that time? Mr. Bruce. I did not. Mr. Grorcr. Did you know him before that time? ne Burcu. Did you know he was connected with them at that time? : Mr. Bruce. I did not. Mr. Burcu. Did you take any pains in finding bidders or persons interested in pine? Mr. Brucs. No; I do not know as I took any particular pains. In the conversation I did not understand that was or was not—— Mr. Burcn. You were gone two days? : Mr. Bruce. Four. Mr. Burcu. Did you ride through the pines going south? Mr. Bruce. Yes. Mr. Burcu. And from south to north? , Mr. Bruce. Yes; and east to west. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2025 one Burcu. Did you inform him what the purpose of your mission was? Mr. Bruce. I think so. Mr. Burcu. What portion of four days did you spend in the pines? Mr. Bruce. The whole four days. a Mr. Burcu. The whole four days? Mr. Bruce. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Where did you start in? Mr. Bruce. At White Earth. Mr. Burcu. Where did you come out? Mr. Bruce. Park Rapids. Mr. Burcu. What route did you take, generally speaking? Mr. Bruce. Well, we went north and east and-—— Mr. Burcu. Then south? Mr. Brucs. South and then finally east to Park Rapids. Mr. Burcu. Did you employ Mr. Warren to go with you? Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect whether I did or not, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Did you see that he was afterwards paid? Mr. Bruce. No; I do not know whether I did or not. I do not recollect. That is ey a matter of record; I am not sure whether he went with me of his own volition or whether I requested him to go. Mr. Burcu. Did you report him to be a timber expert ? Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect about that. He was a timber expert, whether I reported him or not. Mr. Burcu. It is stated in the testimony that when he received his pay he received it as timber expert—-marked “ timber expert.” Mr. Bruce. It was very evident he was, from the fact that he had charge—he was chief examiner of the Chippewa lands up there and had charge of all the crews estimating—and if he was not a timber ex- pert he certainly should not have held that position. Mr. Burcu. You had known him before? Mr. Bruce. Oh, yes; I had worked in connection with him in 1902 and 19—-whatever time this was; I think it was about 1905. Mr. Burcu. When you got through, or just before you got through with that, did you ask his opinion as to the value of this pine? Mr. Bruce. I presume that we talked over the possible value of it; Imight. I asked a great many people. Mr. Burcu. Let me ask you this question: Did you ask him his opinion of value, and he stated to you that it would be $12 for the white and $10 for the Norway, to which you assented that you thought he was about right? Mr. Bruce. I might have done so, because that was about my judgment on that timber. ae : -Mr. Burcu. When you got to Park Rapids did you leave him send a telegram to Washington ? : Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect whether I did or not, Judge. It is so far back. I may have telegraphed I would be in at such a time. I had instructions to come to Washington as soon as possible. Mr. Burcu. Did you come to Washington immediately ? Mr. Bruce. I did as soon as I could. Mr. Burcu. Whom did you see when you came here first? Mr. Bruce. Mr. Pinchot first. _Mr. Burcu. Did you report to him? Mr. Brucs. I did. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——33 | 2026 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Did you then go, at his suggestion, to Mr. Leupp? Mr. Bruce. I believe that is exactly what I did. Mr. Burcu. You saw Mr. Leupp personally ? Mr. Bruce. Yes; I think I did; I am sure I did. fe Mr. Burcu. Did he request you to make any report in writing— to put that report in writing? Mr. Bruce. As to which? Mr. Burcu. As to what you had done. Mr. Bruce. I did as to the criticisms of the regulations. The Cuarrman. Your answer is not quite responsive. The ques- tion is, Did he request you to make any report in writing? Mr. Burcu. Put that report in writing? Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect, Judge, whether he did or not. Mr. Burcu. You did make a report on the regulations? Mr. Bruce. I did. Mr. Burcu. Suggesting changes? Mr. Bruce. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Did you make report on that occasion as to the value of the pine? Mr. Brucs. I can not say,whether I did or not; it may be of rec- ord, but I am not sure. Mr. Burcu. What were your instructions when you went there? The Cuarrman. Just there, if he did not make a report, did he file any memorandum in writing? Mr. Burcu. Did you file any memorandum in writing? Mr. Bruce. I did; with Mr. Pinchot. I do not recollect whether I did with Mr. Leupp or not. Mr. Burcu. ‘You had no instructions, then, except those you re- ceived by telegraph from Mr. Pinchot? Mr. Bruce. That is all, Judge; and my report would naturally o to Mr. Pinchot, and if any memorandum that I made on the sub- ject went to Mr. Leupp it would go through the regular channels In the Forestry Service and be sent over that way; but as to whether I did, I do not know. I quite probably did, but I do not recollect. Mr. Burcu. Have you previously made sale of the timber, or had to do with the making sale of the timber under similar circum- stances of the ceded lands? Mr. Bruce. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Not a great while before this? nee Bruce. In 1903, I think, in November the sale was consum- mated. Mr. Burcu. Can you remember the price you received ? Mr. Bruce. Well, it ran from $9 = Norway and from $5 for white pine up—I think about $9.50. Mr. Burcu. It averaged $6.61, did it not? ‘i Mr. Bruce. Something like that; I do not remember the exact gures. _Mr. Burcu. How did you come to reach the conclusion that white at on White Earth Reservation was worth $12 and Norway pine 10? Mr. Brucs. Well, the timber on White Earth there was pretty accessible to log—pretty easy logging, pretty good quality of timber, that I saw. Mr. Burcu. And the other was not? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2027 Mr. Bruce. Some of it was not as valuable as the White Earth timber in quality or easy logging. Mr. Burcu. Was there any other reason? Mr. Bruce. No other reason, so far as I am concerned, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Now, taking the whole timber together—I am not speaking of these bunches of pine accessible, but the pine as a whole on the White’ Earth Reservation. Would there be that difference, in your opinion, in quality or logging between $6.61 and $12 and $10? r. Bruce. You must take into consideration that there had been quite a little lapse of time between 1903 and May of 1905, and the prices had been raising about as rapidly at that time as during any time during the history of the lumber industry. Mr. Burcu. Was that the basis of your recommendations? Mr. Bruce. That was the basis of my recommendations; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you afterwards see Mr. Warren and talk with him respecting this incident? _ Mr. Bruce. I do not think I talked with him about it at any time after this time that he was with me. If you will allow me to say just a word. Mr. Burcu. All we want is light and the truth. Mr. Bruce. I think it may be of interest to you. I think within two or three months after this sale was over—turned down because they were not satisfied with the bids—the Thief River Lumber Co. came in and offered, so I saw a copy of their letter, $10 a thousand for the Norway and $12.50 for the white pine, on this very area of the White Earth. Mr. Burcu. We have that already in the record. Now, after you left Washington and returned to Wisconsin—did you leave Wash- ington and return to Wisconsin after two or three weeks? Mr. Bruce. No; I did not go to Wisconsin. Mr. Burcu. Minnesota—I beg your pardon. Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect just what my movements were at that time. I presume I did go back to Minnesota. fj Mr. Burcu. Were you, about three weeks after the rejection of these bids, which occurred November 15, 1905, at Cass Lake? Mr. Bruce. I really can not tell; I presume I was. Mr. Burcu. Do you recall seeing Mr. Edward Warren at that time? Mr. Bruce. No; I do not recall at that time, because I do not recall for sure whether I was. Mr. Burcu. Would you say you were not? Mr. Bruce. I would not say that I was not. 3 Mr. Burcu. Now, then, I will read you from his letter [reading] : After I made the trip with Mr. Bruce and we returned to Cass Lake, I said they have rejected the sale over at White Earth, and it looked to me like a pretty fair price. I was not posted as to the amount of timber, and he said it would not make any difference if they could get $25 a thousand, the sale would never have been approved. He imputes that thing to you. Did you or did you not state that? Mr. Bruce. I did not. No. : . Mr. Burcu. You deny, then, the truth of his testimony ? Mr. Bruce. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You made no such assertion? 2028 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Bruce. I had no grounds to make any such assertion. Mr. Burcu. I am through with the witness—refresh your recol- lection with regard to this telegram again as much as you can, and giving the substance and effect, if you can not give the language, what did you understand your duties to be by force in that telegram from Mr. Pinchot? Mr. Bruce. To find out as soon as possible what the value of the timber on that White Earth territory was—the quality and the probable cost of logging, and to be able to advise him, and I sup- posed, incidentally, Mr. Leupp, when I got through, as to whether the bids offered for the timber were proper and such as should be considered and the timber awarded for the amount offered. Mr. Burcu. That was all, in substance, contained in his telegram to you? Mr. Bruce. I think I got a letter before that telling me they would like me to go there, and I neglected to do it, and I finally got rather a peremptory telegram from Mr. Pinchot asking me to do that at once and report at once at Washington. Mr. Burcu. Then, your action was in pursuance of your letter, re- enforced by a telegram of brief character ? Mr. Bruce. Yes. As my recollection of it is, I have not had time—this thing came to me this afternoon since 3 o’clock—and I have not had time to look up the correspondence. That is my recol- lection. I have my criticism here—I found that, if that would be of any interest to you—criticism of the regulations. Mr. Burcu. The committee may desire that; I could not say. So far as I am concerned, it does not. The Cuarrman. Is it long or short? Mr. Bruce. Not very long. The Cuarrman. Have you it in shape so you can leave it with us? Mr. Bruce. Yes; you can keep that copy. Mr. Burcu. We can have his consent to put it in the record? The Cuartrman. If you think it is relevant, we will not hesitate as to his consent. Mr. Brucsz. That is one of the reasons why I criticized the propo- sition to sell the timber, because I was not satisfied with the regula- tions. There they are, just as I wrote them out for Mr. Pinchot. The CuarrMan. The copy of your criticism of the regulations? Mr. Brucs. Yes, sir. That is the only thing I had time to get up as I came through. Mr. Burcu. I do not desire to ask the witness any further ques- tions at the present time. Mr. Gzorer. Why did Mr. Pinchot send you there? Mr. Bruce. I can not tell you; I suppose from a friendly interest in the forestry work of the Indian Office. Mr. Grorce. Did the Forestry Bureau have any jurisdiction? Mr. Bruce. Not at all. Mr. Pinchot and Mr. Leupp were friendly, and I imagine he was trying to help Mr. Leupp out in the work. Mr. Grorcez. But you got no explanation from Mr. Pinchot? Mr. Bruce. Not any, anv further than that. Mr. Grorcr. Did you subsequently get any explanation? Mr. Bruce. No, sir. At that time, if you will pardon me, I was | working in connection with the Department of the Interior under WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2029 the terms of the Morris bill, which applied not only to the Minne- sota National Forest, but in a measure to all the ceded lands. And I was interested in trying to help as much as I could in making the things go right all along the line. Mr. Gerorce. You do not remember that you ever gave to Mr. Leupp any memorandum whatever? Mr. Bruce. I am not positive whether I did or not. Mr. Leupp would probably recollect that better than I do. Mr. Leupp. I do not remember it at all. Mr. Bruce. I suppose one of the reasons I was sent over there was that I had done considerable work on ceded lands of the Department of the Interior. I think one time Mr. Leupp, through Mr. Pinchot, had me sent down on that Choctaw or Indian Boundry Reservation. Mr. Georce. When was that? Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect. Mr. Grorce. How far after? Mr. Bruce. It was before that, I think. Mr. Leupp. No, sir; it was after. Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect that. The Cuairman. Mr. Bruce, was anything done in pursuance of your recommendation as to revision of the regulations? Mr. Bruce. I really do not know. The Cuarrman. If the white pine on the reservation afterwards sold for from $8 to $10 a thousand on the stump, it was sold too cheap, was it? Mr. Bruce. According to my judgment, it was. The Cuarrman. What difference did you make in the white pine and Norway pine? Mr. Bruce. I think $2.50—$2 I think. I think I recommended $10 and $12. The Cuairman. And the jack pine? Mr. Bruce. J do not think I made any recommendation on that at all--anything except the two chief species, Norway and white ine. The Cuarrman. How was the pine divided as to the proportion of each of those two? Mr. Bruce. It was intermixed, most all over the tract. The Cuarrman. About half and half? Mr. Bruce. No; I should say there was—in some places there would be white pine—yes; it might have been half and half. The Cuarrman. On the whole, nearly half and half? Mr. Bruce. It was a very general and cursory examination I had to make. I recollect I stayed out one night at a lumber camp, and the next day got back to White Earth, about two days north. It was, of course, an ocular estimate. The only thing I could do in that short space of time was to get a general idea of the situation. That is one of the ideas why I did not want to go, because I knew I did not have time enough to do the subject justice. The CuatrMAn. Your memorandum upon that says: The minimum price which I would recommend be placed upon this timber, if offered for sale under the foregoing proposed changes in the original regulations, at the present time, are as follows: White pine, minimum price, $12 per M feet b. m. 1. s. Mr. Bruce. Board measure, log scale. 2030 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman (reading) : Red pine, minimum price, $10 per M feet b. m. 1. s. What is red pine? Mr. Bruce. That is the Norway pine. Norway is the local name of it. The CuairMan (reading) : White oak, minimum price, $10 per M feet b. m. 1. s.; red oak, minimum price, $8 per M feet b. m.1.s, All timbers to be scaled by Government scalers, using the Scribner’s Decimal C rule. Using Scribner’s decimal rule in estimating? Mr. Bruce. Yes. The Cuatrman. Why didn’t you estimate in the other timbers around there? ; Mr. Bruce. I imagine those were the chief species I had in mind. The Cuairman. The others did not have very much value, did they ? Mr. Bruce. No; the jack pine was very light in value. The Cuarrman. Was not $10 for white oak rather a stiff price at that time? Mr. Bruce. Not for that quality. The Cuatrman. What was there in the quality Mr. Bruce... It was very short timber, a good deal of scrubby top toit. If they took anything out of it at all they would take probably only up to the limbs. They would use only the butt logs for cabinet- work and use up the whole tree and not get much timber out if it. The Cuarrman. You speak of the timber being well suited for logging purposes? Mr. Bruce. Yes. : Tne Cuairman. By that, I take it, you refer to its proximity to water 4 : Mr. Bruce. Well, the country was very flat and level there. They could handle the timber on the streams or they could run a railroad in ee and have a central point, and bring it all to one point and mill it. The Cuarrman. If they wanted to mill it on the reservation they could do that, and if they wanted to take it elsewhere for milling the streams were convenient? Mr. Bruce. A good many roads through there—— The Cuatrman. But the oak—they could not take that to distant mills by water—it would not float. Mr. Bruce. They would log it. aie Cons: That would reduce the available price on the stump ? Mr. Bruce. Somewhat; but it is more valuable material than the butt mill run. The Cuarrman. It was then? Mr. Bruce. It was then. _ The Crarrman. The increase in the price of oak for manufactur- ing purposes has been very material since that time, has it not? r. Bruce. I saw one bid—if it would be of any interest to you— on ash over there, of $25 a thousand, I think it was. The Cuarrman. Did you consider that bid made in good faith? Mr. Bruce. No. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 20382 The Cuamman. What other trees did you see bids on that were non est inventibas—that were not there? Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect any except that one particular in- stance. I think there were some other species. The CuatrmMan. Was there much maple over there? Mr. Bruce. Yes; there was considerable maple there. The CHarrman. But it was scattered greatly, was it not? Mr. Bruce. It was scattering. I was rather impressed with the idea that it would be poor policy to sell that maple. The Crairman. Why, Mr. Bruce? Mr. Bruce. I think I give it in that memorandum there. Because it furnished a source of subsistence for the Indians themselves in making sugar, as I have seen on the Leech Lake and the Chippewa and Mississippi Reservations. I thought it was better policy to let that maple timber stand there and let them have something to earn a little revenue with, and also the idea of labor. The Cuatrwan. Let me add that your judgment has been amply vindicated, judging by the appearance of the trees now. They all Jook as if they had since been bled to death. Mr. Bruce. Probably they have not used the most advanced meth- ods of tapping. The Cuartrman. That was awkwardly done. They were wounded seriously and practically destroyed, I think, by the manner in which they were tapped. They were tapped frequently, those of them that we noticed. Now, of-the speciés of hardwood you saw there, do you consider that the white and red oaks were the only ones that it was really worth while bidding on? Mr. Bruce. Yes; my recollection is—that is, as I recollect it. The Cuarrman. And no bid over $10 for the white oak and $8 for the red oak would be a bid in good faith, in your judgment? Mr. Broce. No. The Cuarrman. And any bid at all for the other species of hard- wood would be, to use a slang expression, a “ hot-air” bid? Mr. Bruce. I do not recollect just what species there were there, Judge. You must consider that I only put in four days there; I was looking principally at the two main species. Mr. Georce. Pines? : Mr. Bruce. White and red pines. I did not have much time to examine the quality of the different species there were there, but I did notice the oaks and the maples. When I saw the regulations, which I do not think I did see until I got here to Washington—— Mr. Burcu. Was their timber punky? : Mr. Bruce. You would find more or less defect in all old white pine, and that was very old. Mr. Burcu. Was it limby? Mr. Bruce. To a certain extent; not unusually so. Mr. Burcu. It looked pretty well up to the limbs? Mr. Bruce. Why, yes; you would find in some patches more than 2 usual amount of what we would class as upper and clear timber. That is usually the case where there is any old stand of white pine that has grown thickly and is very old. Mr. Burcu. Now, you know Mr. Chute, of the Weyerhaeuser Co. and of the Mississippi Lumber Co.? Mr. Bruce. I have just met him. 20382 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. He testified that that timber was very limby; you say it was unusually good. Do you stand by your judgment? — , r. Bruce. Naturally I would have to stand by my own judg- ment; I can not accept the other man’s judgment. Mr. Burcu. Do you think he was not correct about that? Mr. Bruce. Did he go all through it? Mr. Burcu. He did not say, but he said he had estimators go through it. Mr. Bruce. Right there, Judge, there is a point of difference that exists in all timber cruisers’ estimates. He may have seen an unusu- ally bad portion of that timber and not got a fair idea of it. I might have seen the best. Mr. Burcu. He had reports from a thorough cruising. Mr. Bruce. I think he had reports from all his cruising. There had been quite a bit of cruising in there, so I was told, and I got all the information I could while I was there as to what had been going on. I understood there had been several lumber companies had their agents in there cruising bits of timber. Mr. Burcu. Perhaps we are taking your time unnecessarily. The Cuairman. He has plenty of time to catch his train. Is there anything further? Mr. Bruce. I suggest that perhaps Mr. Leupp might desire to ask a question. Mr. Lever. I would simply like to ask Mr. Bruce if it is probable that the report he made to Mr. Pinchot is on the files of the Forestry Bureau ? Mr. Bruce. This one is, right here [indicating]; this criticism of the regulations. Mr. Levrr. I remember that. Mr. Bruce. If there is any more—if I made any other it will cer- tainly be there. I do not recollect whether I did or not. Mr. Lever. The reason I inquired was—— Mr. Bruce. I think that is the only report I made on that subject. Mr. Levrr. Going back six years in my memory—which is rather a difficult thing for me to do—I was under the impression that I had seen you before you started out. I remember now my conference was with Mr. Pinchot. But he conveyed to you no indication of my wish to have the thing kept absolutely secret ? Mr. Bruce. No; there was nothing of the kind. Mr. Lever. Well, I was mistaken in my testimony about that. But what I would like to correct, then, Mr. Chairman, was simply my statement that I gave any instructions that morning to Mr. Bruce; but I will say that my conference with Mr. Pinchot must have con- veyed that idea, because it was my purpose not to have anyone know what Mr. Bruce was there for. The Cuatrman. If there is nothing further, Mr. Bruce may be excused. Mr. Merirt. Is it not true that under the jurisdiction of , Mr. Leupp there was very close cooperation between the Indian Bureau and the Forestry Service? Mr. Bruce. So far as I know; yes, sir. Mr. Merrrr. It was not, then, an unusual thing for Commissioner Leupp to call on the Forestry Service for assistance in this matter? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2033 Mr. Bruce. No; I think not. I am sure not, because I was on two or Sey pieces of work that I understood was done at Mr. Leupp’s request. The Cuairman. That is all, Mr. Bruce. We are obliged to you. In connection with the testimony of Mr. Bruce, the regulations to which he refers and his criticism of them and recommendations for their improvement may be printed in the record. The regulations and memorandum of Mr. Bruce are as follows: COPY OF THE REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE WHITE EARTH INDIAN TIMBEB IN MINNESOTA WAS ADVERTISED FOR SALE SEPTEMBER 5, 1905; ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 15, 1905. : J) The act of Congress approved April 21, 1904 (88 Stats., 189, 209), pro- vides: The Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota to whom allotments have been or shall hereafter be made and trust or other patents containing restrictions upon alienation issued or which shall hereafter be issued therefor, are, with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, hereby authorized to dispose of the timber on their re- spective allotments. Timber on the allotments of minors may likewise be sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent, or any other officer in charge, in the order named; and the Secretary of the Interior shall make such regulations for the disposition of the proceeds of said sales as may be necessary to protect the interests of said Indians, including such minors and the Indians of the White Harth diminished reservation, Minnesota, to whom allotments have been made, or shall hereafter be made, in accordance with the provisions of the act of Congress of January 14, 1889 (25 Stats., 642), or the act of Congress of April 28, 1904 (83 Stats., 589), and patents issued therefor, or shall hereafter be issued therefor, are hereby authorized to sell on stumpage, as hereinafter pro- vided, all of the merchantable timber standing or fallen on their respective allotments under the supervision of the United States Indian agent, White Earth Agency, Minn., provided that a mill shall first be established on the reser- vation for the manufacture of said timber into lumber and shingles, and a bond in a sufficient sum, to be fixed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, shall be given, subject to the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, conditioned upon the faithful observance of all the laws of the United States now in force and that may hereafter be enacted relative to trade and intercourse with the Indians, and the regulations that may be prescribed thereunder for the pur- chase of timber from such of the Indians of said diminished reservations as have been given, or may hereafter be given allotments, as desired to sell the same, and will enter into contracts therefor at prices accepted by the Secretary of the Interior. Provided, that the Secretary of the Interior may at intervals of not less than five years during the existence of the contracts, or any of them, increase the prices of any of them specified therein, if he deem it just to do so, subject, however, to the consent of the timber contractor. If the timber con- tractor shall fail, refuse, or neglect to approve such increase within 30 days after notice thereof, the Secretary of the Interior may elect to terminate all timber contracts then in force covering the timber on allotments on said reserva- tion, in which case the authorized contractor shall be given 30 days’ notice of such election. (2) Before any timber shall be cut under the forgoing authority from any allotted tract, a contract shall be entered into between the successful bidder and the Indian to whom such allotted tract has been patented, except minors, in such form as shall be prescribed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, which contract, however, shall have no force or effect until the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have indorsed his approval thereon, which approval shall operate as specific consent of the Secretary of the Interior to the sale of the timber to which the contract relates. : (3) The Indian agent at the White Earth Agency, Minn., shall see that the contractor shall employ Indians in the cutting, moving, and manufacture of the timber when practicable, on the same terms as other labor, and the con- tractor shall agree to employ Indians who may be willing to work in doing the logging authorized thereby. : (4) No green or growing or dead timber, standing or fallen, shall be cut or removed from the unallotted lands of the reservation, under these regulations, 2034 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. and any violation of this provision by the contractor will subject him to lia- bility to prosecution and punishment under section 5388 of the Revised Statutes of the United States, as amended by the act of June 4, 1888 (25 Stats., 166), as well as the forcible removal from the reservation, and suit on his bond, and shall work also as a forfeiture of all contracts for timber on the reservation and all rights under such contracts. (5) One-half of the cost of scaling shall be paid by said contractor, and the other half shall be paid from the proceeds of the sale of the timber. (6) After deducting one-half the cost of scaling, and other necessary ex- penses chargeable against the same, the proceeds from the sale of timber from the allotted lands of the reservation shall be paid to the Indian agent, White Earth Agency, and by him deposited in some national bank designated by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, subject to the check of the Indian owner of the allotment, except minors, countersigned by said Indian agent, unless other- wise stipulated in contracts with particular Indians. Money accruing from the sale of timber on the allotment of a minor shall be deposited for the use and benefit of such minor, in the name of the persons who entered into the contract on behalf of the minor, and shall be subject to the check of the person who made the contract when properly countersigned by the Indian agent, except in cases where the Indian agent entered into the contract, and in such cases it shall be subject to his check upon the proper application of the person who has the care and custody of the minor allottee. If the Indian agent shall in any case be of the opinion that the allottee is not competent to manage his own affairs, he shall, subject to the approval of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, have authority to fix the sum or sums, if any, such allottee will be permitted to withdraw from deposit. (7) The contractor agrees to furnish his logging crew to fight fires when- ever called upon by the farmer in charge of the reservation, and that he will use every reasonable means to prevent fires from starting and spreading. The logging crew when engaged in fighting fires shall be paid from the proceeds of the sale of timber at the rate to be fixed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and the United States Indian agent for the White Barth Agency shall have authority to make sufficient proper deductions from the proceeds of logging to pay such expense. ' (8) Groups of from two to four matured pines, situated at intervals of about 400 feet, will be marked by an agent of the Bureau of Forestry of the Department of Agriculture. Whenever practicable each group shall contain both white and Norway, and short, crooked, forky, punky, or fire-hollowed trees should be chosen. No large first-class trees shall be marked unless cull timber is not available, and each tree shall be marked with a stamping hammer on the root collar and at breast height. (9) No trees which are marked shall be cut, and said contractor agrees to clear the ground of tops and branches within a radius of 50 feet from groups of marked trees. a Stumps shall be cut at a height not to exceed 18 inches from the ground. (11) Dead-and-down pine shall be cut and paid for whenever merchantable. In scaling worm holes will not be considered a defect. (12) No merchantable logs shall be left in the woods at the conclusion of lumbering operations on any allotment. All merchantable logs left in the woods shall be scaled and shall be paid for at the contract price. (13) The Government farmer in charge of the reservation shall act as fire warden and shall have authority to call upon the logging force to fight fires whenever necessary. ‘Three competent Indians shall be appointed to act as fire guards under the direction of the Government farmer, acting fire warden. Hach guard shall be assigned a portion of the reservation to patrol and protect and shall have authority to call upon the necessary help to fight fires. When the guards and the help called upon by them are unable to control the fire, the guards must notify the farmer, who may then call out the logging force. When not actively engaged in fighting fires the guards shall be employed in clearing up ribbish from the old logging roads, trails, etc., with a view to pro- tecting the timber from fire, and the United States Indian agent shall have authority to make sufficient proper deduction from the proceeds of the logging to pay the salaries of the fire guards. (14) The slashings of the area cut over each winter must be burned during the following spring under the direction of the farmer, and the tract shall at that time be visited by an agent of the Bureau of Forestry, who will give advice WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 20385 and instructions as to the proper method of burning the slashings. The reser- vation shall also be visited from time to time by an agent of the Bureau of Forestry of the Department of Agriculture, who wil] assist the farmer in car- rying into effect these rules and examine into the practical working of the same. (15) The farmer in charge of the reservation shall, under the direction of the agent, be required to supervise the logging on the reservation under these regulations, to the end that no injustice is done the Indians and no green or growing timber is cut and removed, except in accordance with these regulations, and all moneys for stumpage shall be paid to the agent in trust for the Indians or Indian owner, to be by him deposited or accounted for according to the fore- going regulations unless otherwise stipulated in the contract with such Indian owner. C. F. LARRABEE, Acting Commissioner of Indian Affairs. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Washington, August 7, 1908. The foregoing regulations are approved in accordance with the provisions of the act of April 21, 1904, herein mentioned, and I hereby consent to the sale of the timber on the allotted lands of the White Earth Diminished Reservation, Minn. Tuos. Ryan, Acting Secretary. {Memoranda relative to_the proposed timber sale November 15, 1905, on the White Earth Indian Reservation in Minnesota.] Undesirable features in the advertised regulations for the White Earth Indian timber sale and recommendations, by E. S. Bruce, inspector, Forest Service. 1. The pine timber on this tract has apparently been greatly underestimated and the hardwood timber greatly overestimated. 2. All allotments to Indians on this reservation should be completed before the timber is sold, thereby minimizing the cost of preparations for the sale, and making the supervsion of cutting and removal one continuous operation. This would tend to make it more economical and bring more satisfactory re- sults by avoiding the necessity of breaking in different sets of officials to look after the work 8. The boundaries of all allotments should be surveyed and plainly defined with corner posts set by a competent Government surveyor before any timber is sold. If this is not done, there will be great danger of complications arising, since it will be impossible to keep the scale of the different allottees’ timber separate without lines to determine where the boundaries of one allotment cease and those of another commence. 4. Selling the timber of allottees in one immense block sale, as is contem- plated by the present regulations, can not fail to work injustice to those indi- vidual allottees who own timber which, from its favorable location to streams and lakes for being more cheaply logged, is worth more than the timber of allottees who are far distant from such points, to which the timber must necessarily be brought. . 5. The timber should be sold by townships and bid upon by separate sections, since there will be eight different owners of timber on each section if the land is allotted in 80-acre plats. In awarding the sales the right should be retained to group the sections in such manner as is necessary to get the best price for the timber. 5 6. The pine timber should be sold separately from the hardwood in order to get the best prices. The pine manufacturer is very seldom a manufacturer of hardwood. The two lines of business are entirely distinct, and have separate manufacturers’ associations to deal with matters of price and output. 7. A better stumpage price would undoubtedly be secured for the timber if lumber companies which have established mills were given the privilege of taking the timber purchased to their mills for manufacture, instead of being campelled to manufacture it on the tract, since the difference between the cost of erecting mills and constructing railroads and the cost of transportation of the timber to the already constructed mills must be deducted from the stumpage. price. 2036 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 8. The yparchasers of the hardwood timber should be guaranteed the right to establish portable mills to cut up the hardwoods, if they so desire, on each township. To compel them to haul the hardwood to one central point would, in effect, be deducting the cost of long-distance hauling from the price they could otherwise pay for the stumpage. 9. The right to construct necessary logging railroads should be guaranteed in the advertised regulations, as a knowledge beforehand of what privileges would be allowed, or that certain reasonable privileges for the timber’s removal would be allowed, could not fail to have a marked effect on the stumpage price which would be offered. 10. The forestry clause should be omitted entirely. This sale deals with indiviual eighties of land owned by Indian allottees, and the forestry clause contemplates dealing with this land without their consent. They can hardly . be expected to practice forestry on 80-acre tracts. The only advisable restric- tion would be to establish a reasonable stump-diameter limit below which no timber should be allowed to be cut. 11. The clause requiring that slashes be burned should be left out, since there is great danger that more damage would be caused by setting the up- piled slashings afire on this tract than by their being left to rot. The territory is thickly covered with a large amount of inflammable débris and under- brush, which would make it almost impossible to check a forest fire started in the unpiled slashings at a season of the year when they would burn. 12. No maple trees should be allowed to be cut, since the manufacture of maple sugar in the springtime is one of the Indian’s chief industries, from which he derives not only a small revenue but also one of his staple articles of subsistence. 18. The time to be allowed for cutting and removal of the timber should be definitely stated. ‘Timber not cut when that time expires should revert to the allottee, and the advance payment be forfeited. 14. There should be a definie statement in the regulations of the time at which the logs should be paid for (preferably before the removal from the tract). 15. There is nothing in the present regulations designating what scale rule shall be used in measuring the timber. The scale rule to be used should be definitely stated, since this will make a marked difference in the stumpage prices which could be paid. Scribner’s Decimal C rule should be used. 16. The cost of scaling should be borne entirely by the Indians, and the selection of competent scalers is of prime importance in this work. They should be under no obligation whatever to the timber purchasers, nor should the purchasers have any voice in their selection. The scalers should be solely under the direction of the Government official in charge of the cutting and removal of this timber. : 17. It is needless to say that the man in charge of the work should be a first-class timber man in every respect in order to direct so complicated a piece of cutting as this will be, and to see that no injustice is done to any allottee or to the purchasers of the timber. 18. Inasmuch as the Supreme Court has declared that an Indian who has re- ceived his patent is to all intents and purposes a citizen of the United States, no payment for fighting fires should be charged to the allottees;-that is a State charge and should be paid by the State in the usual manner. 19. The minimum price which I would recommend be placed upon this timber, if offered for sale under the foregoing proposed changes in the original regula- tions at the present time are as follows:?* White pine, minimum price, $12 per M. feet b. m. 1. s. Red pine, minimum price, $10 per M. feet b. m. 1. s. White oak, minimum price, $10 per M. feet b. m. 1. s. Red oak, minimum price, $8 per M. feet b. m. 1. s. All timber to be scaled by Government scalers, using the Scribner’s Decimal C rule. Very respectfully, EvcEenr S. Bruce, Hapert Lumberman. Mr. Lever. Mr. Chairman, would you allow me to suggest that for the larger information of the committee an inquiry at the Forestry 1These are the principal species of lumber on this territory. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2087 Service would be a good thing, to find out if there is a memorandum of that sort? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Levrr. Because if that was the case, then I think that clears up the thing that Mr. George and I have been discussing here; that is, as to what became of that memorandum. Undoubtedly I fell back upon the fact that it was all a matter of record and simply made a pencil memorandum. The Cuarrman. I should like to find that. Mr. Merirr. We have already made that inquiry. Mr. Burcu. Now, resuming with Mr. Leupp where we left off—— The Cuatrman. Yes. Mr. Burcu (reading) : From wy observations and what I learned while on the White Earth Reserva- tion. I feel quite certain there would have been no active opposition to the additional allotments made by Agent Michelet were it not for Rev. Charles Wright’s attitude in the premises. Said Rev. Charles Wright is a member of the Mississippi Band of Chippewa Indians belonging on the White Earth Reserva- tion, but has resided at Leech Lake for the past 18 or 20 years, and is now stationed at Cass Lake as a missionary of the Protestant Episcopal Church. He is the oldest son of White Cloud, deceased, formerly head chief of the Mis- sissippi Band of Chippewas, and claims the right of succession; but this chief- tainship is held by William Wright, a younger son of the said White Cloud by another woman, to whom White Cloud was legally married after having sepa- rated from the mother of Rev. Charles Wright, and, as stated to me by Rev. Louis Manypenny, Protestant Episcopal missionary at Leech Lake, who was official interpreter at our councils, White Cloud chose his second son, William, to succeed him as chief, for the reason that he was the issue of a Christian marriage. It is also stated that White Cloud made a will leaving his chieftainship to his son, William Wright (see minutes of council, pp. 30 and 31); but be this as it may, the said William Wright is recognized at the agency as chief of the Mississippi White Earth Band, he being carried on the rolls as chief of that band. Notwithstanding that all of the interested Indians had due notice that Agent Michelet was going to begin allotments under the Steenerson Act on April 24, 1905, Rev. Charles Wright did not report at the agency nor apply for his addi- tional allotment until about two weeks had elapsed after the allotting had com- menced (see Rev. Charles Wright’s speech, minutes of council, p. 10); that he was not present at the allotting. Now, you have probably read that part of that report, had you not? Mr. Leupp. I presume so; yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Didn’t you think that that was what might be termed a purpose upon the part of Agent Michelet or Agent McLaughlin to destroy or injure in advance the effect of any protest Mr. Wright might make on behalf of the Indians he claimed to represent ? Didn’t you think that was going out of the way of the question of the regu- larity of this allotment and his action in connection with it into side matters for the purpose of prejudicing—didn’t you think it would have that effect, anyhow—of prejudicing the mind of anybody who read it against any protest he might make? Mr. Leupp. I should think very likely; yes. . Mr. Burcu. In writing that carefully and discriminately, with refernce to the action of Agent Downs in reporting against this allot- ment and the subsequent action of Maj. McLaughlin in reporting in favor of it, don’t you think that that was a laborious effort; didn’t you have any suspicion that that was a laborious effort on Mr. McLaugh- lin’s part to discount anything Wright might say about his actions? 2038 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Leupp. It never occurred to me that he had that in view at all. Mr. Burcu. Does it now? a Mr. Lever. I can see the possibility of it now; yes—in view of what occurred later. . Mr. Burcu. You had no suspicion of the bona fides of Maj. Mc- Laughlin then? Mr. Leupp. Not in the least; no. Mr. Burcu. You trusted him implicitly ? Mr. Leupp. I trusted him implicitly. | Mr. Burcu. You believed what he said ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Z Mr. Burcu. And acted upon it? Mr. Lzvrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. If he was wrong, your action was wrong? Mr. Lzver. Yes. Mr. Burcu. If he was right, your action was correct ? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Then, upon him rests the question of the right or wrong of this proceeding to set aside—that is, to reinstate, I will put it—that which had already been set aside; that is, the allotment was set aside on Down’s report, and this had the ffect of rein- stating it? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. Burcu. And upon that report rested the whole matter; that is your idea? That is, you acted upon that and recommended the Sec- retary reinstate, and it was reinstated ? Mr. Leurp. Yes; that would be a fair statement, I think. Mr. Burcu. That is all. The Cyartrman. Is that all that anybody desires to ask Mr. Leupp at this time? Well, for the present, Mr. Leupp, you are excused. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Leupp, Mr. Moorhead will be testifying very soon now, and it may be possible that you may desire, on your own account, to be present when he testifies. I thought I would give you notice. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. At this time we have no witness unless we proceed with Mr. Moorhead. He expects to be away to-morrow forenoon. In the afternoon he can be here. The Cuarrman. It isa quarter to five. We quit at five anyhow, and it will not inconvenience the committee if we quit now. It is scarcely worth while beginning now. Have we some one else we could use in the forenoon ? Mr. Burcu. I do not know of anybody. I believe the committee has subpeenaed Mr. Valentine. The Cuarrman. If there is no objection we will meet to-morrow afternoon at 1.30. Thereupon, at 5.35 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow, March 6, 1912, at 1.30 o’clock p. in. SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPeNnDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, Houser or REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, March. 6, 1912. The committee met at 1.30 o’clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding: : The following members of the committee were present: Messrs. Graham and George. There were also present: E. B. Meritt, law clerk Indian Bureau; Hon. F. E. Leupp; M. C. Burch; O’Brien; Warren K. Moorehead. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Warren K. Moorehead will be ready in a mo- ment. Mr. Moorrneap. Pardon me, I was just changing this for the stenographer, and I will be ready in a moment. TESTIMONY OF WARREN K. MOOREHEAD. Warren K. Mooreneap, having beeen duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows: The Cuarrman. Shall I ask Mr. Moorehead a few preliminary questions? Mr. Burcu. I would be very glad if you would. The Cuarrman. State your full name, Mr. Moorehead. Mr. Mooreneap. Warren King Moorehead. The Cuamman. Where do you reside, Mr. Moorehead ? Mr. Mooreneap. Andover, Mass. The Cuarrman. How long have you lived there? Mr. Moorzueap. I have lived there 103 years. The Cuarrman. Where did you live prior to going to Andover? Mr. Mooreueap. In the Adirondacks—Saranac Lake, N. Y. The Cuarrman. Do you mind stating your age? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; I am 46 years of age. The Cuamman. What is your present occupation ? Mr. Mooreueap. I am a scientist, interested in Indians, modern and ancient. : The Cuarrman. Along what special lines, if any? Mr. Moorrueap. Ethnology in the modern Indian, although not so much as archeology of the ancient peoples. : The Cuamman. How long have you devoted your time and atten- tion to that particular subject? Mr. Mooreneap. Ever since I was a boy. I began when I was about 16. . 2039 2040 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. Apart from your private studies, had you any special training along that line? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir; I was appointed assistant by Thomas Wilson—Dr. Thomas Wilson, in the Smithsonian, in 1886 or 1887— pardon me, 1887 I think it was, and served three years there, work- ing winters under Dr. Wilson and in the summer in the field. The Cuamman. You mean, of course, the Smithsonian Institution here in Washington? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir; the Smithsonian Institution, department of anthropology. The Cuairman. Where did you do the work in the field at that time? Mr. Moorenrap. I worked in Ohio. This was prehistoric work— ancient Indians in Ohio and some in Kentucky and some in Illinois, but chiefly Ohio. The Cuarrman. What part of my State—Illinois? Mr. Mooreuerap. I worked along the Ohio River on the edge of Kentucky, from this about 50 miles this side of Cairo. The Cuairman. Have you been engaged in teaching along these lines also? - Mr. Moorrenzap. Yes, sir; I began to teach about 1894, just after the Chicago Fair, at Columbus, Ohio. I was in charge of the museum there for three years and a half, at the State University. The Cuairman. Are you engaged in that kind of work at Andover? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. I teach, lecture, am curator of the museum, and write books. The Cuairman. To what extent have you given attention to the ' present-day Indian conditions? Mr. Moorrueap. I began the first modern Indian work—I mean work among modern Indians, in 1892, when I went in the Navajo country to explore cliff houses for Prof. Putnam, of Harvard. 1 saw the Navajos of Mexico and Utes of Colorado, and stayed with them two or three months, and was more or less among those Indians. Then I begun the study of Indian history, tribal customs, and so forth, and talked with these Smithsonian men whenever I met them. and they thought—I do not want to make too long a statement. The Cuarrman. Go on and make the statement in your own way. Mr. Mooreurap. They thought, that is, those ethnologists who speak the language—I mean James Mooney—that the Indian Office ought to protect them more; that is my understanding; that is, that there was humanitarian work to be done aside from the scientific. was interested in the scientific work. When I went to the Lake Mchonk Conference, some years later, the first time, I heard all these Indian questions discussed fully there. The CHairman. Just there, you might stop long enough and digress. Tell it so that it will go into the record what the Lake Mchonk Conference means in that connection. Mr. Moorenrap. The Lake Mohonk Conference is under the man- agement of Mr. Albert K. Smiley. ' It holds alarge conference every October. I believe the title is “ For the benefit of dependent peo- ples”; and they discussed the Indian problem and formerly entirely the Indian problem. Now they discuss the Filipino, Porto Rican, ete. At this conference men assemble—— : WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2041 Mr. Georce. You mean by that modern problems, not scientific ones? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes; humanitarian problems. It is very mter- esting at those conferences to hear these men from the field and the Commisisoner of Indian Affairs—I have often heard Mr. Leupp or Mr. Valentine speak there and their subordinates about what they are trying to do in the field. Few of the scientists ever go there. After I had been at Mohonk two-or three years, somebody told me that there was a vacancy on the Board of Indian Commissioners here in Washington, and Senator Lodge spoke to President Roose- velt—he told me; that is, Senator Lodge told me—and President Roosevelt appointed me on that board three and one-half or four _years ago. He appointed me December 19, 1908, was the exact date. Then I spent all my spare time from duties at Andover in philan- thropic work. I will correct that, Mr. Chairman, if I may. I de not want to pass as a philanthropist. I mean, and I started to see if I could help these Indians—that is the way I want to put it—and that led me to leave Andover on numerous occasions. I beg your pardon, that is an exaggeration—on several occasions—and I took advantage of all this little Indian study that I had had and my knowl- edge of the Smithsonian men to see what could be done, and that led up to this last investigation of White Earth. The Cuarrman. The question was raised, What could be done? You might tell us by whom the question was raised, and what came of it. Mr. Mooreneap. At Lake Mohonk, Mr. Chairman? The Cuarrman. Yes. You spoke of a question being raised which led to your visit to the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Mooreneap. If I The Cuarrman. Was the question raised through the Board of Indian Commissioners ? Mr. Moorenrap. I do not know as to that. If it is permissible, there is aparagraph here I think which would answer that, if I may read it, The CuarrMan. Give us the answer any way you wish. Mr. Moorrurap (reading) : Some time in February, 1909, after I had heard from friends in the Smith- sonian and also from a friend in Wisconsin that there was suffering among the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota, I appplied to Commissioner F. E. Leupp. then Commissioner of Indian Affairs, to be appointed in the regular Indian service in order to accomplish something of real value for said Indians. That is too long a story to give in full detail, but it was the brother of one of these men concerned who gave me the information in a friendly way. He wrote me a letter first when President Roosevelt appointed me and congratulated me on the appointment and joked me, and said that if I wanted to see suffering I had better go to the White Earth, or words to that effect. I wrote this man—who, by the way, is not concerned in any of these cases and who lives in another State—and asked for specific information, and he at once sent me a special-delivery letter, stating that he was joking and for me not to go there; and I at once did go there, because I thought that that indicated a bad situation. . The men in the Smithsonian spoke of trouble there and in the Indian Territory and elsewhere. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——34 2042 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grauam. I do not know that there is anywhere in our record a very good description of what this body known as the “ Indian commissioners” is and what it is doing and its duties. Would you give us light on that subject ? Mr. Moorrunap. Yes, sir. ~The Cuatrman. You are now a member of that body? Mr. Moorenerap. Yes, sir; that body is — The Cuarrman. Are you holding any official position in it? Mr. Moorenxap. Just a member; yes, sir. There is later a full answer in that as to the official position they gave me last vear, which I wished to carry out, but was prevented by the Indian Office. The Cuamman. You might leave that out at present, and just tell us some of the things about it. When was it organized ? Mr. Mooreneap. If I remember correctly, it was established by President Grant. I think Mr. Leupp, who was on it long before I was, could perhaps give the date—somewhere in 1868 or 1869. The Cuarrman. He has told us about that. Mr. Leupp. 1869. Mr. Mooreneap. 1869, by President Grant, and it was then called the “ Peace Commission,” when we had trouble with the Sioux and Pawnees and the other Horse Indians who were fighting. It re- ceived an appropriation of $40,000 a year, if I remember correctly, but in the eighties the appropriation was cut down. Later it was still further reduced, and to-day it is but $4,000, a mere pittance. This board had at first to inspect agencies; second, to inspect schools and warehouses and pass on bids in the various Indian warehouses in these cities—New York, St. Louis, Chicago, and San Francisco. During the last four or five years the board has spent its time visit- ing warehouses, and I believe I am the only member who has gone to reservations. The board wishes to do work in the field, but it has no money. Of this $4,000 we have to pay about $2,500 to our secretary; we have to pay the traveling expenses of the members when they meet twice a year and the printing of our report and our office rent. So we have a couple of hundred dollars left. The Cuarrman. Would you give the personnel of that board at _ the present time? Mr. Moorreurap. Yes, sir. The senior member of the Board of Indian Commissioners is Albert K. Smiley; Dr. M. E. Gates, I think, is second in point of service; then George Vaux, of Philadelphia; then his eminence Cardinal Gibbons; Samuel Elliott, of Boston, president of the Unitarian Association; Mr. J. C. Bannin, of Brooklyn; Bishop Walker, representing the Episcopal Church, of Buffalo; and a new man from Sault Ste. Marie, Mr. Frank Knox. I do not know his business. Mr. Burcu. He is an editor, I think. The Cuarrman. And the board has recently selected a new secre- tary, I think? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. What is his name? Mr. Moorewzap. H. C. Phillips, and myself. Mr. Phillips is not a member but he is secretary. He is an outside man. Mr. Gates was secretary for many years. The Cuatrman. The amount appropriated annually has, then, barely sufficed to preserve the organization? WHITE EARTIT RESERVATION. 2043 Mr. Mooreurap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And the secretary has an annual salary and has, I suppose, permanent duties imposed upon him? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. What is the nature of those duties? Mr. Moorrneap. He must notify us of the legislation in Congress. He must attend the opening of these bids, if I am not mistaken. He must answer all correspondence; he must meet with missionary so- cieties; he must notify us of unwise legislation in Congress and of movements that would result in injuring the Indians, such as the Pima water case, an irrigation matter, in which he did good work; the California situation—I think he took a hand in that. Mr. Gzorcr. Where was that? Mr. Moorrueap. In California. I do not know the particulars, where these Indians lost their homes; and take a hand in serious trouble in the Indian Office, just, for instance, as the Johnson case, that we intend to go bring up and go into, as we believe Mr. Johnson was not given a square deal—the famous whisky inspector case, and matters of that sort. He called the attention of the mem- bers of this board to those things. Mr. Burcu. That was “ Pussy Foot” Johnson? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I beg your pardon. We know of him by that name. Mr. Moorrueap. Yes. Then several of us on this board take more active interest in it and write more letters than others. I do not say that in any disrespect of the others. Some of them do not do very much, but some of us are active; for instance, in my office I have a stenographer on Indian affairs over half of her time, for which we are allowed nothing. I have to pay that. We try to keep abreast of legislation and try to influence it, but before—well, I do not know how to put that; I am afraid it does not carry all the weight that it should. The Cuairman. In a recent conversation with Mr. Philipps, the new secretary, I said to him in substance that I thought that board ought to do either more or less than it is doing or has been doing; that the very high standing of the gentlemen who compose it, nearly all of them of national reputation, and some of them of international reputation, stood before the American people as a sort of guarantee that any matter which they were looking after would be well looked after, and that—when it was the duty of a board comprising men like Cardinal Gibbons and Bishop Walker and others of the gentle- men who are members of it, yourself included—the public had such confidence in the rectitude and high Christian ideals and the sin- cerity of those men.that they would naturally say: “If there were anything wrong with the Indians that Board of Indian Commis- sioners would know it, and let the people know it; and, therefore, as long as they have said nothing to the public about the condition of the Indians, there is nothing wrong with them;” and that the existence of such a board, actually doing nothing, amounted in sub- stance to a false pretense, and that, in justice to themselves and the Indians, they should either get busy or quit altogether. What have you to say to that lecture which I gave to the secretary ? Mr. Mooreweap. I am in rather a delicate position here. I could tell you a good deal abont my own board, but it is all being put into 2044 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the record. [Laughter.] I do not want to be disrespectful, but I have done all I could; my conscience is clear. a The Cuarrman. Have you any suggestions as to how the condition might be bettered ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; I have positive convictions. The Cuarrman. You must see the logic of my position. Mr. Mooreneap. I do; and now, this Indian Office is to blame very seriously, I claim, in three matters connected with this board, and I would like to introduce it now if it is proper. It is not all our fault. Last year we met in February in this city and I wanted to go to Leech Lake, Red Lake, and Cass Lake, because there is a bad situation there. The Cuarrman. All of these places are in Minnesota ? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. The Chippewa, or properly Ojibway, Indians live and their friends live at White Earth, the same Chip- pewas; and they have been writing letters to me as an adopted member of their tribe—frank letters—and complaining, and I have reason to believe those complaints. Our board has no money, but they managed to squeeze out $200; they offered me $200 and ap- pointed me field man, and the Boston organization voted $200 more— and I am speaking frankly—and myself and another man put up some money to go there to investigate. After all I had heard on the Lake Mohonk platform, welcoming investigations, giving men who are willing to do something for the Indians an opportunity, it was a great personal disappointment to me when I went to the United States Indian Office and told them that I wanted to go there—to “Leech Lake, to Red Lake, and to Cass Lake—and they sent their three best men, from all I can make out. If they went for other reasons, then I stand corrected, but it was remarkable that their three best men—the assistant commissioner, Mr. Abbott, Supervisor Holcombe, and Maj. McLaughlin—all went up there to those places, and, of course, I could not go. The last I heard of it they were there. I have received a copy of Maj. McLaughlin’s report, and it, like many of the inspectors’ and special agents’ reports, deals with matters not the vital things at all. The other two men went up there either at the end of March or some time in April, I think, or pos- sibly the Ist of May. It is nearly a year ago, and I have written to the Indian Office several times and have been told they have not made reports. If they have been made in the last few weeks. of course, I have not seen them. There is a place where I tried to go without salary—just ex- penses—and I could not accomplish anything. In that case the board is not to blame. Mr. Grorcr. What was the attitude of the department to you? Mr. Moorrueap. They said the reports were not made. Mr. Grorcr. As precedent to your going you wanted the reports? Mr. Moorrngap. No; I wanted to find out, since they had gone in. my place, whether the Indians were suffering or in good condition, and then keep silent. In the meantime, the Indians complain. The Ciuarrman. You stated a moment ago that you attributed part of the blame—perhaps some of it—to the Indian Office, in that your board was not able to do more. Would you explain more fully now, or would you rather wait and do that as a part of your story— why the Indian Office is to blame? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2045 Mr. Mooreueap. Well, I do not know, Mr. Chairman, just why they are to blame; that is, when I recommended these things—things that are all through this report, which I would like to read; and I do not know why they did not do it, and 1 judged they were to blame, because they did not bring about these reforms. The Cuairman. Mr. Moorehead, as I have not had any oppor- tunity to talk with you or get a line on the information you expect to impart to the committee, and possibly Judge Burch has, and knows about the trend and drift of your testimony, perhaps I had better turn the matter over to him; or if you have yourself anything in the nature of a preliminary which will give us a sort of outline on the ground that you feel able to cover and want to cover, that would be in order. Have you any suggestion to make as to the course we ought to pursue? Mr. Mooreneap. I would like, Mr. Chairman, since it requires only about 16 minutes to reach a statement of things in a chronological order, to state why I went there, what I found there, what recom- mendations. were made, including that council to which you have re- ferred, with reference to the election of Richardson, the Darwin Hall case, the disease problem, and several other matters. The Cuarrman. The committee thinks that would just about cover the ground that we have in mind. Go ahead with that. Mr. Mooreneap. Thank you. May I read sitting? Mr. Burcu. You may read in such manner as you like. The Cuarrman. And it is understood, is it, that he shall not be interrupted so that his statement may appear consecutive? Mr. Burcu. Yes. The Cuarrman. And if anyone desires to elaborate a point let them pursue the burden of remembering it until the end of his statement. Mr. Burcu. He elaborates afterwards. The Cuatrman. Proceed. Mr. Moorrueap (reading) : I was appointed by President Roosevelt on the Board of Indian Commissioners December 19, 1908. Shortly after appointment I visited Washington to ascertain the duties of said board. I found that there was no money for inspection of reservations or agencies, and that the activities of the board were confined to the inspection of goods in Indian warehouses in New York, St. Louis, and Chicago. Some time in February, 1909, after I had heard from friends in the Smithsonian and also from a friend in Wisconsin that there was suffering among the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota, I applied to Commissioner F. E. Leupp—then Commissioner of Indian A ffairs— to be appointed in the regular Indian Service in order to accomplish something of real value for said Indians. ; ; ; Mr. Leupp had me appointed special agent in the Indian Service March 3, 1909. I remained until the latter part of May, 1909, then, at Commissioner Valentine’s request, resigned. July 1 I was reap- pointed and served until the end of October, 1909. I have not been in the service since, save as a member of the Board of Indian Com- missioners. rsh ; , Immediately after appointment, I received notification, by long- distance telephone (from Washington), to assist Mr. Leupp inspect the warehouse of St. Louis. I went to St. Louis, remaining about a 2046 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. week there and then to Chicago, spending five days in that warehouse. Believing that the more important work was to be done on the reser- vations, I asked for permission to visit White Earth, northern Min- nesota, and went there about the 14th or 15th of March. I did not go to White Earth for scientific work in ethnology, as has been stated before this honorable commission, but went there to investigate conditions. Reaching Park Rapids, I drove to Pine Point Boarding School (post office, Ponsford). I had not been there more than 15 minutes till I observed that the Indians were in bad condition. I employed Dr. P. D. Winship to investigate health conditions and he and the doctor at Pine Point, Isaac Stalberg, visited all cabins within a radius of 5 or 6 miles. In the meantime, I sent to St. Paul for a stenographer. Mrs. Rose Ellis and John Lufkins were employed as interpreters. I notified the superintendent, Nicodemus Hurr, to dele- gate his duties as superintendent to others so far as possible. Mr. Hurr, the stenographer, myself, and one of the school teachers spent four or five weeks typewriting affidavits and statements of Indians. It soon developed that the Indians had been swindled out of the major portion of their property; the doctors reported that nearly all the Indians were diseased or sick. I did not visit the agency at White Earth until I had been at Pine Point some time, for the reason that every other inspector or aes agent had spent his time at White Earth, in the agent’s office or in the office of subordinates, rather than visiting the Indian cabins or hearing Indian evidence, so the Indians claimed. So far as I could ascertain, no full report on the condition of this reservation had been made to the Indian Office, and such reports as were made by persons outside of the service had never been acted upon. Po sooner had I begun to take evidence on the part of Indians, who Pee swindled out of their property, than opposition manifested itself. In all this preliminary investigation I had no one with whom to advise and was surrounded by hostile interests. Toward the end of April I was utterly worn out, having been on duty from 15 to 18 hours per day with no one on whom I could en- tirely depend, surrounded by enemies, threatened, etc. I had at that time 117 affidavits, representing over a million dollars’ worth of property taken from Indians. I telegraphed for permission to come to Washington and same was granted. It was stated that the lumber and land interests would attempt to prevent me from taking these affidavits East. This information was afterwards found to be correct. On the day of my departure I sent Dr. Stalberg to Park Rapids, the nearest point to a railroad and distant 18 miles. He left Pine Point about 10 o’clock and reached there about 2. He found several of the persons interested in preventing the taking of the affidavits East assembled. He gave them to understand that I would come in time to catch the 5 o’clock train for St. Paul. In the meantime, at 7 o’clock that morning I had started for Ogema, 40 miles north, and located on another railroad. I took 4 or 5 armed policemen and 3 armed drivers, reached White Earth Agency about 4 o’clock, spent several hours with Agent Howard, and went WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2047 East on the night train. I delivered the affidavits and reports safely to Commissioner of Indian Affairs Valentine. These preliminary reports bear several dates. One of the most important is dated April 1, 1909. In this I begged the commis- sioner to establish a hospital on high land beyond Pine Point. Dr. Stalberg and later Agent Howard and Dr. Richards petitioned for the hospital. Nothing was done in this matter. I also pointed out the insanitary condition of Pine Point Boarding School and the great and crying need of protection for these Indians. I also called attention to the ravages of that terrible disease, trachoma. I recommended that oak wood be used for fuel at White Earth instead of anthracite coal. The latter is very expensive, and there is no reason why Indians should not be employed to cut wood for use of the schools and employees. Coal is still used. I also recommended that the paupers and helpless Indians be fed by the Government, since the Government has permitted them to be swindled cut of their property. I have not visited White Earth’ since October, 1909, but numerous letters have stated that there is great suffering. Mr. Valentine reprimanded me for issuing an appeal in the Bos- ton Transcript a year and a half ago. This appeal resulted in the raising of some money to feed destitute Indians at Pine Point. The latter part of April, 1909, Commissioner Valentine informed me in his office that he was about to appoint one Darwin S. Hall as Chippewa commissioner. I opposed the appointment of this man as strongly as possible. I knew him to be a State senator and also serving on the Minnesota State Fair Board. I have heard nothing in his favor at Pine Point. But Commissioner Valentine, at the request of Senator Moses E. Clapp, appointed Darwin Hall about the 1st of May, 1909. On arrival at White Earth in July, 1909, I found Darwin Hall at the Hiawatha Hotel. As he was Chippewa commissioner with au- thority I introduced myself and asked him if I could speak to him. He stepped out into the street and I told him something of our plans, how that these Indians needed protection, and asked for his coopera- tion. He refused to give same; spoke with feeling against the inves- tigation. Shortly after this conversation he went up street to the office of the Tomahawk, where the Beaulieu brothers usually stayed. I set Darwin Hall down as a dangerous man. All the times that I saw him about White Earth he was never at work. He hung about our office on several occasions, listening to evidence. He was of no help to us, gave no information, and, to the best of my knowledge and belief, was in active sympathy with the interests re- sponsible for the loss of the property of the Chippewa Indians. George Walters, an intelligent full-blood Indian; Rev. Charles Wright, an educated Indian missionary, and one or two others, stated to me in Washington, D. C., about February, 1911, that Darwin Hall assembled the Mille Lac Indians some time before he was discharged from the Indian Service by Commissioner Valentine; that he told these Mille Lac Indians some time before he was discharged from the Indian Service to remain in camp until he was ready to move them to White Earth; that these Indians were in camp about two weeks without sufficient supplies, and that Darwin Hall did not come to 2048 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. move them; that they were compelled to return to their former homes at their own expense, and that there was considerable suffering. Hall was in office nearly 22 months. He was to remove a few hun- dred Mille Lac Indians about 100 miles. At the end of his 22 months he had moved about 50. It would have required seven years and two months for Darwin Hall to have moved these Indians. I agreed to move them in 60 days. Agent Howard informed me in the summer of 1909 that he had not sufficient rations for the Mille Lac Indians, even did Darwin Hall move them; that he had not houses in which to place these Indians. He also informed me that Darwin Hall told him he expected to have charge of making a new roll of the Chippewa Indians in place of the Indian Office. Commissioner Valentine never removed Darwin Hall until I made the matter public. = It was the first of July before I could persuade Commissioner Val- entine to permit me to return to White Earth and complete the investigation just begun. At first the Indian Office could not believe the reports of swindling, poverty, and disease. I found other in- spectors or special agents had spent their time in condemning worth- less articles, visiting schoolhouses, or checking up accounts. I could not find that anyone had spent time among the Indians or ascer- tained their conditions. The only exception was Mrs. Newton, who spent a few days in visiting the cabins where sick Indians lived. During the month of June Mr. Valentine had me resign to save $166.67 salary and $90 maintenance. He said he was short of funds, yet during this same period he continued Darwin Hall in office at about double my expense. Early in July I went to St. Paul, met Inspector E. B. Linnen, and there he and I investigated conditions on White Earth until the Ist of October, when I. returned East. Mr. Linnen remained 10 days after I had left. We went over all the previous evidence and took a total of 600 or more affidavits to establish the status of the full-blood Indians. As there have been statements made before this committee that we told Indians to testify that they were full bloods, I desire to deny as vigorously as possible such false and misleading statements. Not only is just the opposite true, but we were very particular to tell these Indians that we wanted the truth. We further told these In- dians that their false swearing in Detroit or Mahnomen or Ogema that they were mixed bloods did not make them mixed bloods; that false swearing that they were full bloods would not make them full bloods; that if their grandparents and parents were full-blood In- dians they would be full bloods; that if their parents and grand- parents were mixed bloods, they would be mixed bloods. That was distinctly and clearly told these Indians. All the time that I was at White Earth one Gus Beaulieu and one John Carl and others were continually publishing statements by word of mouth or by means of a newspaper in White Earth and another in Detroit that we were compelling Indians to falsely swear. After a total of 17 weeks at White Earth spent among Indians, I have no hesitancy in saying that they (Indians) were made to sign papers the purport of which they knew nothing, and made to swear, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2049 or persuaded to swear, that they were mixed bloods by designing persons and not so much of their own accord. There have been statements made before this committee and in the press that we interfered in the Indian council. Such statements are absolutely false. In fact, speaking personally, I kept silent in that council when the grossest kind of injustice was being done by Gus Beaulieu, Ben Fairbanks, Clement Beaulieu, and John Carl. This is the correct history of the council and can be verified by ref- erence to my stenographer-interpreter’s report made the night after said council was held and sent by me to the Indian Office. When it was announced that there would be a general council of these Indians held July 15 and 16, 1909, it became apparent at once that the faction headed by Gus Beaulieu, John Carl, and Ben Fair- banks would attempt to dominate said council. The purpose of this council was to reelect; C. E. Richardson tribal attorney. I received orders from the Indian Office to attend said council and report all the proceedings, but not to influence it. I inquired as to what Mr. Richardson had accomplished for the Indians the past four years, but could ascertain nothing. Just before the council was called Mr. Richardson came to White Earth, and I met him. He admitted that he had not taken any interest in the protection of the Indians from the land and timber sharks, but said he would at once do so. During the months of July and August, while he was awaiting confirmation of his appointment, he did circulate among the Indians and tell them he would save their lands. But he had done nothing to protect the Indians up to this time, so far as I can ascertain. ‘ The Pine Point Indians, belonging to the Otter-Tail branch, living at a distance and very poor, were given flour and bacon by’ Agent Howard at my suggestion so they could attend the council. Many of them did not have teams. Some of these Indians walked the 35 miles and the older Indians rode with the few that did have teams. I make this statement for the reason that Gus Beaulieu declared that Agent Howard and myself paid or issued rations to these Indians for the sole purpose of getting them to vote against Mr. Richardson. That statement is not correct. These Indians having assembled, asked me to come to their camp. They asked me to act for them, as they had no confidence in Gus Beaulieu, John Carl, or Ben Fairbanks. I explained to them I could not act for them and they must vote as they saw fit at the council. When the council assembled in the school house, the Pine Point Indians numbered 80 or 90 voters, with their friends. The mixed bloods were in the minority. Gus Beaulieu, John Carl, and C. E. Richardson made long speeches and delayed the council all day. The Pine Point Indians could have carried the council against Richardson had they voted. Meantime, Ben Fairbanks sent teams all over the reservation and to the towns and brought in the mixed bloods and men almost white. The next day, July 16, 1909, council met in a pavilion near Ben Fairbanks’ store. Printed ballots were given these Indians. These were understood by the educated mixed bloods and the other members of the tribe who appeared to me nearly white. There were three men present who were pointed out to me as saloon keepers from Ogema or Mahnomen. John Carl made 2050 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. a half-hearted speech to the Indians who could not read, explaining the printed ballots. The council being packed with friends of Beau- lieu and Richardson, he was duly elected by a good-sized_majority. The voting was late in the afternoon of the second day. During all these hours of wrangling and browbeating of the full-blood Indians - on the part of Gus Beauleiu, John Carl, and others I kept silent, but about 4 o’clock in the afternoon I made a speech calling for harmony and advised that they attend to their business and go to their homes. This speech was not against Mr. Richardson and not in favor of Mr. J. W. Allen, as has been claimed. Just before the council assembled, Mr. Richardson took me to his room in the hotel and asked me to support him; that the full-blood Indians had confidence in me, and that he would work hard for the welfare of the Indians if I supported him. I refused to do this. (Report of this council is in the Indian Office files. ) The evidence collected by Inspector E. B. Linnen and myself was given to the Indian Office about the 10th of October, 1909. Reference to the various documents and letters sent by me to the’ Indian Office indicate the following facts: That in a public address from the platform of the Lake Mohonk conference, October, 1909, Mr. R. G. Valentine, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, did state that he would remedy the wrongs of these Indians. In 1910 I addressed several letters to the Indian Office, calling attention to the spread of trachoma, consumption, and other diseases at White Earth, and that the Indian Office was not doing its duty. During 1911 I sent additional information to the Indian Office concerning employees, the health problem, the protection of the Minnesota Indians. While the Indian Office sent a few more doctors to White Earth, it has not grappled with the problem heroically. In February, 1911, I received permission from the Board of In- dian Commissioners to visit Leech Lake, Red Lake, and Cass Lake Reservations, where I had heard conditions were bad. I went to the indian Office and stated my intention to represent the board at these places. Immediately Chief Supervisor Holcombe, Assistant Com- missioner Abbott, and Inspector McLaughlin rughed:to those three res- ervations in advance of me. I have received copy of report made by Maj. McLaughlin of matters not vital to the Indians. I have re- ceived no report from either Commissioner Abbott or Supervisor Hol- combe regarding the visit made to these reservations, nearly a year ago, although same has been asked for. One McIntosh has stated before this honorable commission that I gave presents to the Indian women to persuade their husbands to vote for J. W. Allen for tribal attorney. This statement is false. The true story has never been told. The Indians wished to elect me as their representative, because they were tired of attorneys and a commissioner who did nothing. A delegation of more than 60 of them approached me on this subject at Pine Point. I told them that I could not serve them but would help them all I could, whether in the Indian Service or not. I have kept that promise and still con- tinue to do all possible for these poor people. Mr. J. W. Allen, of the Boston Citizenship Committee, a graduate of Yale and an attor- ney of high standing, whose father was a well-known philanthropist, visited White Earth at his own expense and stayed with us several. . . i WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2051 weeks, helping collect evidence. He did this because he was inter- ested in the Indians. That a man was willing to help poor people without pay was naturally incomprehensible to Gus Beaulieu, Dar- win Hall, or C. E. Richardson. Mr. Allen told these Indians that if they needed an aitorney he was interested in them and would be gad to serve them. I did not tell the Indians to elect Mr. Allen. at I told them was that I hoped the Indian Office would now take a lesson from past mistakes and guard their interests so they would not need any attorney at all. But if they ever did need an attorney they should hire a man not for three or four years but for one year and put him out if he did not achieve results. I told them I could not advocate any attorney, but I knew Mr. Allen and knew that he was an honest and upright man. The swindling of Indian school children occurred in the Flan- dreau, Haskell, and Pipestone boarding schools. These children were supposed to be under the protection of the United States Gov- ernment. Affidavits submitted by Inspector Linnen and myself indi- cate negligence on the part of school superintendents in the Indian service. The case of Philomena Donnell was especially flagrant. The case included both forgery and perjury. Although she was swindled in the summer of 1909, in a recent letter from Miss Donnell to me she states that she has received no protection from the Govern- ment in the recovery of her property, and that she and her relatives had to spend $59 of their hard-earned savings in recovering the land from John Carl. In October, 1910, I went to Lake Mohonk and attempted to make public the White Earth affair, but was denied a hearing. However, Mr. Valentine met several of us in a small room and made certain statements or promises. ‘As one who began the entire White Earth affair, I am deeply in- terested in the welfare of these and other Indians. I have consulted with scientific friends who know conditions on reservations in differ- ent parts of the United States. I venture it as my humble opinion that if the United States Indian Office does not afford the same kind cf protection for the health and property of these Indians that we white citizens enjoy, we shall soon have a race of diseased paupers for our taxpayers to support. The exhibition of a few educated Indians who have property and are competent gives a wrong impression to the people of this coun- try. The bulk of our Indians are not self-supporting. And unless we tie up their property so that white people can not take it away from them, we shall have thousands upon thousands of dependents on our hands. At White Earth white persons were allowed to come and go at will on the reservation, and I never heard of an instance of an Indian man or woman being afforded real protection. We have agreed to make citizens out of Indians, and when we extend the boon of our American citizenship we should give them the same kind of protection that we ourselves enjoy. That is the whole Indian prob- lem. No matter how much money the Government spends or how many persons are employed in the Indian Office, unless this is af- forded, and also a better and more intelligent inspection service, the Indian problem will continue to be a disgrace to our civilization in the future as it has in the past. 2052 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcy. Mr. Moorehead, you have alluded to various special or branch statements which have been synopsized, so to speak, in this general statement you have made. From what I have seen, I wish you would follow your general statement in regular order and read the special treatments of the topics just now treated in general. Mr. Moorzueap. If these are not in just the order } Mr. Buron. It is not so material about that, chronogically or in any way that you think proper as much as possible to review; I would like to have the chronological review. . Mr. Moorenswap. Mr. Chairman, the first exhibit was the expense. I understood that the title of this was investigating the expense of the Interior Department by this committee. This shows the total of our investigation to be $3,066.64 for the White Earth. The Cuairman. That is, made by you and Inspector Linnen? Mr. Moorgurap. Yes, sir. His salary should be added to this. I do not know what they paid him; but this is my expense and salary and Indian witnesses and all, about half what they paid Darwin Hall, as near as I can understand. Mr. Gezorce. Would the total expenditure be included, if you added the salary of Linnen ? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir; I do not know that he spent any money, but it shows all that I spent. ; Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Moorenrap. He was there 10 days after I left. Now. the next exhibit Mr. Grorer. Just a moment until the Chair gets through. The Cuatrman. Was it your thought that this thing should be published in the record? Mr. Moorruerap. No, sir; I did not know what you wanted,-and I brought everything that related to the White Earth along with me-— about 10 times what you may want. mo CHairman. What is Exhibit No.1? This is marked Exhibit 0. 2. Mr. Moorsuerap. Exhibit No. 1 was a copy of Mr. Linnen’s report, which he allowed me to have a carbon copy of just as he has it. That is the report you have. The Cuairman. That is already in our record? Mr. Moorriap. Yes, sir; it is in your record. And my copy of his report is my own. We have went so far in this as to check all the places, indicating the part that he dictated, and the part that I dictated, so that we could tell whose it was. The Cuairman. Mr. Reporter, the statement of expenses submitted by Mr. Moorehead, covering all moneys expended by him and In- spector Linnen in the investigation they made there during the summer of 1909, except Mr. Linnen’s salary, which was paid from an- other fund—the statement is very minute, giving items paid to porters on sleeping cars and other matters of that character, and is too voluminous to be published in the record without some special reason, and the committee sees no sufficient reason for it. The aggre- gating expense is $3,066.64. I think that would cover your state- ment. Just go on now. Mr. Moorrngap. The next statement compares the past with the present; and the gentleman who made this, Rev. Mr. Gilfillan, in a letter to me, is present. He was a missionary 25 years, I believe, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2053 among those Indians, and speaks the Indian’s language, and I asked him a year ago to make me a statement comparing the moral, physi- cal, and other conditions of the Ojibways of those days and the pres- ent, and he did so, and this is the carbon copy of his statement. Mr. Burcu. I would suggest, then, that I had better put Mr. Gil- fillan upon the stand and later on, perhaps, let him testify to the truth of it, or read it, or whatever the committee desires. The Cuarrman. Mr. Gilfillan is present now? Mr. Burcu. Yes; he is here now. The Cuatrman. Well, if he will identify the report as being the report and correct, it might go in here now; and then you can ex- amine him about it later, and it would be in the order which Mr. Moorehead suggests it should appear. Mr. Burcu. If he may be sworn, he can then identify it on oath. [To Mr. Gilfillan.] Mr. Gilfillan, will you be sworn? ae Cuatrman. His word will be sufficient to let it go in the record. Mr. Burcu. Very well; let him look at the paper, then.’ [To Mr. Gilfillan.] Just say whether that is the report you made. Mr. Moorenesp. We do not want a part to go in, but all or none. We can leave a space for it, and if he (Rev. Gilfillan) identifies it, it can then be inserted in the record. No. 4 relates to a matter not brought out in the other report, but I regard it*very serious. It refers to the treaty of 1867. I am not an attorney, but it appears to me to work a gross injustice to these Chippewa for this reason: That he told them that those who culti- vated 10 acres of land and became farmers could have 40 acres as a reward for their industry, and up to a maximum of 160 acres these Indians could receive land. The Cuarrman. That is, for each 10 acres actually cultivated they would get title to 40 up to a maximum of 160 acres. Mr. Moorrueap. Now, Mr. A. C. Tonner, Acting Commissioner of Indian Affairs, writes to Simon Michelet, the agent at White Earth, telling him that those Indians who are industrious could not partici- pate in the pine allotment; they could get no pine. This is a copy of the letter secured from the Board of Indian Commissioners and turned over to me. The men worked hard and got a few acres of land, but got no pine, and a fellow who did not do any work had pine allotted to him. The Cuairman. This, then, goes to the injustice and impracticable character of that law? Mr. O’Brien. And of the Steenerson Act also. Mr. Mooreneap. Yes. The Indians told me, “ What is the use of working if the fellows : . Judge Burcu. I think perhaps it may be well to get this clear in the record. Under the treaty of 1867 you have mentioned, and under the Steenerson Act as well, under the construction that A. C. Tonner, the Acting Commissioner of Indian Affairs, made of it, the point you make is that those who had been industrious and cleared 40 or more acres of land, under the terms of those acts, could not partici- pate in the additional allotment provided for the Steenerson Act. Mr. Moorrnean. Yes, sir; that is what the letter says. 2054 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ° / Judge Burcu. While those who had not been industrious and cleared any land under these various provisions just stated could receive additional allotments under the Steenerson Act, thus dis- criminating in favor of those who were not industrious enough to clear land previous to that time in the interest of mere quantity of land holding? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Well, you call that to the committee's attention as an injustice. What remedy, at this late date, since the allot- ments have been made, and since this has apparently gone into a sort of vested or settled form, have you, if any, to suggest by way of legislation or otherwise? Mr. Moorrneap. I had not thought of that. It was just the in- justice of the thing that struck me. The Cuatrrman. You must have had an idea of recommending to this committee some remedial act. Mr. Mooreneap. I just called attention to it by way of a lesson for future protection. The Cuarrman. Mr. Moorehead, on that same line, the matter to which you now call attention was the result of congressional action. This committee is not reviewing the work of Congress. Did the Indian Office have any part that you know of in bringing about this legislation ? ! Mr. Mooreueap. Not that I know of. - The Cuairman. Our duty is more particularly to find out what the Indian Office did in connection with these things than to find out what Congress did. I do not suppose it would hurt to go back over the ground, and if we can catch where Congress made a mistake use that as a sort of guide for the future, but it is really irrelevant to any purpose of this committee unless the Indian Commissioner or Indian Bureau was in some way party to the wrong. Mr. Moorrueap. May I make a new statement ? The Cuarirman. Yes, sir. Mr. Moorengzap. Why I brought that up was not so much to get action, but, being interested in the progress of these Indians and see- ing these fields growing up in saplings, I asked the Indians that question. They said they had been cultivating this land for years and received no pine, while the drones received pine, the farmers getting nothing; hence the fields grew up in timber. I thought perhaps I could get at the root of this, so secured a copy of that letter and turned it in. 7 The Cuarrman. To get into the record the point you have in mind with a little greater clearness, it amounts to this: That congressional action fixed it so that any Indian who had 40 acres of land and reduced 10 acres of that 40 to a state of cultivation was thereby en- titled to 40 acres more. Mr. Mooreneap. That is right. The Cuarrman. And then, having cultivated 10 acres on that 40, he could reach out and cultivate 10 on another 40, and he was then entitled to another 30, and so on until he had acquired a maximum of 160 acres, and, having 160 acres, he was not entitled to any more allotments in that reservation of any character. Mr. O’Brien. That is right. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2055 The Cuamrman. Suppose he only cultivated 10 acres on each, he would be entitled to the full 40 acres on each tract so cultivated, would he not? Mr. O’Brien. The Steenerson Act provided for a total of 160 acres, irrespective of what his previous allotment was. The Cuarrman. But if he had been industrious and reduced to a state of cultivation 10 acres each on four 40-acre tracts he was estopped from cultivating any more. Mr. O’Brien. In that way he was deprived of any chance what- ever to get any pine allotment, and the more industrious the less pine he would get. Mr. Moorrnxap. Yes. And the pine allotments were more valu- able than any other allotments. Mr. Grorce. Suppose he earned 40 acres by cultivating 10 acres— he cultivated that 10 and 30 besides, then, when the Steenerson Act came along to what was he entitled? Mr. Moorenezap. He was entitled to—— Mr. Grorcr. Then he got 120 acres? Mr. Mooreueap. This and the other 180 under the Steenerson Act. The Cuairman. Now, then, that being the case, the question oc- curs on the suggestion I made to Mr. Moorehead—-whether the Indian Office had anything to do with that legislation—let me ask this addi- tional question: Did the Indian Office at any time, as far as you are aware, point out to Congress or to anybody the unjust character of this legislation or make any recommendations against it? Mr. Mooreneap. I do not know, Mr. Chairman. It would be un- fair for me to say that they did not. It is quite possible they did. The Cuarrman. In your judgment, would it have been in the range of their duties to have done so. Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir; I should think so. The Cuamman. Well, if you keep that in mind we may find out later. It may be they did call attention to the undesirable nature of that legislation. Judge Burcu. Mr. Chairman, just a word. While I am well aware that, strictly speaking, the proper jurisdiction of this inquiry of this committee is, as stated by the chairman, limited to what we have termed a “clean-up” in this White Earth situation, there are possible suggestions for comprehensive legislation. It is legislation of complete, or as near complete legislation as is possible in human affairs of a legislative character—a complete system of legislation might be adopted to meet the various conditions that might obtain. For instance, in this case if the Indians should at some time appear and present an equitable claim to Congress that they had earned 80 acres of land by cultivation and then been deprived by means of this legislation of any participation in any additional allotment of this valuable pine, that at some session of Congress the altruistic or equitable spirit may reach so far in favor of these Indians as to look with comfort on a suggestion that they be reimbursed for this harm that was done them. In other words, it occurred to me that, like a court of equity, having obtained jurisdiction for one purpose that all purposes of a desirable character that may follow it are within the jurisdiction, and the situation should be taken in by this committee, and hence a matter of this kind must be received by the committee 2056 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. for what it was worth, and a suggestion for legislation might come from it. ' The Cuairman. The chairman meant to say that this should not go into the record now. I think it ought to go in, but, at the same time, the chair had meant to point out the line of demarcation of what this committee has the direct jurisdiction of and what it has not, but the Chair may state in that connection that he has talked this matter over with the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, and Mr. Stevens is very anxious we should get into our record anything that may be of use to his committee for the work of constructive legislation, and there is a spirit of entire accord be- tween this committee and his in that regard, and the chairman of this committee would undertake, in every case, to call his attention to matters of this kind. I do not mean to keep it out of the record. Judge Burcu. I wanted it brought to the attention of anyone reading the record for whatever good purpose that might be made of it. > The Cuairman. The Chair thinks that the reasons you give why this committee should have jurisdiction are a little attenuated. This is a basis for claims on the part of the Indians, but I think it is a lettle too shadowy as a basis for legislation, but it will go into the record just the same. : Judge Burcu. I have seen some pretty shadowy things go through into legislation in the matter of dollars and cents. The Cuairman. Would you like to read the letter, Mr. Moore- head ? Mr. Moorehead proceeded and read the letter, as follows: Orders to White Earth agent to not issue to Indians who had cultivated the soil. DEPARTENT OF THE INTERIOR, OFFICE oF INDIAN AFFAIRS, Washington, June 7, 1904. Simon MICHELET, Esq,, United States Indian Agent, White Earth Agency, White Harth, Minn. Sir: The act of Congress, approved April 28, 1904 (Public, No. 218), known as the “Steenerson Act,” provides that the President of the United States is hereby authorized to allot to each Chippewa Indian now legally residing upon ‘the White Earth Reservation, under treaty or laws of the United States, in accordance with the expressed promise made to them by the commission ap- pointed under the act of Congress entitled “An act for the relief and civiliza- tion of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota,” approved January 14, 1889, and to those Indians who may remove to said reservation who are entitled to take an allotment under article 7 of the treaty of April 18, 1867, between the United States and the Chippewa Indians of the Mississippi, 160 acres of land. The act also provides that where an allotment of less than 160 acres has heretofore been made, the allottee shall be allowed to take an addi- tional allotment, which, together with the land already allotted, shall not ex- ‘ceed 160 acres; and that if there is not sufficient land in the Diminished White Harth Reservation subject to allotment to give each Indian entitled thereto an allotment in quantity as provided in the act, then the lands shall be pre rated among the Indians. The President has designated you to make the additional allotments provided for in said act. The following instructions are therefore given you in the premises: It is held that only the Mississippi Chippewas are beneficiaries under said act—that is, those Indians to whom express promises of allotments of 160 acres were made by the original Chippewa Commission, viz, the White Barth Mississippi Chippewas and the Gull Lake Mississippi Chippewas residing on the White Earth Reservation. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2057 To those Indians of the Mississippi Bands who may remove to the White Earth Reservation and who are entitled to take allotments under article 7 of the treaty proclaimed April 18, 1867, viz, Gull Lake, Mille Lac, and White Oak Point Mississippi Chippewas. But in order for these Indians to be entitled to the additional allotment provided for in the act, they must have actually removed to the White Earth Reservation with the bona fide intention of making that reservation their permanent home. The Indians of none of the other bands are entitled to additional allotments under said act. - It is supposed that the rolls of your agency will enable you to determine just what Indians are entitled to additional allotments of land under said act and under these instructions. But in making these additional allotments, the usual rule and practice of this office must be observed, viz, the Indian must be in being at the time the allotment is made or assigned to him. Or, in other words, no allotment can be made to a dead Indian. As you are aware, very many of the White Earth Mississippi Chippewas have already received allotments of 160 acres, or approximating 160 acres, under the “cultivation clause” of article 7 of the treaty promulgated April 18, 1867. Additional allotments can not be made such allottees. But where the allottee has received less than 160 acres he can be given additional land conforming to the legal subdivisions approximating 160 acres. As you will note, the act provides that if there is not sufficient land on the diminished White Earth Reservation subject to allotment to give each Indian entitled thereto 160 acres, then the land shall be prorated among those entitled to allotments. It will therefore be necessary for you to first determine, so far as you can by computation, whether there will be land enough on the diminished reservation to give each Indian entitled thereto an allotment of 160 acres. In case there is not, then the Jands will have to be prorated among the Indians; but in prorating the land it will still be necessary to adhere to legal subdivisions of not less than 20 acres, or legal subdivisions designated as lots, which may contain less than 20 acres. That is, the allotments should be made upon the basis of giving each Indian approximately 100, 120, 140, or 160 acres of land, as the case may be. These additional allotments must be made on a separate schedule by bands, following the numerical order of the original allotments under the act of Janu- ary 14, 1889. The left-hand column of the allotment sheets should be divided, maki: two columns. The first column should run in numerical order—1, 2, 8, 4, etc. In the second column you should place in red ink the allotment numbers of the allottees as they appear on the original schedule. This rule is necessary to facilitate a ready reference to the original allotments. In other respects the allotments will be recorded on the schedule as though they were original allot- ments. The column of remarks can be used for additional notations. The first sheet of the schedule, however, should be properly headed in accordance with the provisions of said act and the instructions given you hereunder. You will, accordingly, upon receipt of these instructions and in connection with your other duties, proceed to make the additional allotments provided for by said act of April 28, 1904, subject to the instructions herein contained. Should you need additional instructions upon any feature of the work, you should make request for the same. You will please acknowledge receipt of these instructions. Very respectfully, ee ae . C. TONNER, Acting Commissioner. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Washington, D. C., June 10, 1904. Approved. E. A. Hitcucocr, Secretary. Judge Burcu. Mr. Gilfillan is ready now to identify— The Cxuarrman. Before leaving this question, Mr. George suggests a point upon which we would like to get the view of Mr. Moore- head. While on the reservation, and from the facts we have here, it appears a great many farms or tracts that had once been cultivated by the Indians have been abandoned and gone back to the wild state; to what extent do you attribute that to the matter to which you have just called our attention ? 73822°—H.. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——35 2058 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Moorzneap. I think it is generally due to that and contributory causes, and the fact that those Indians were paid considerable money for their lands and became more or less dissipated. I should say, however, that the primary cause was the passing of that law.. The Cuarrman. Mr. Gilfillan, we will now hear you. Rev. Girrmuan. That is the letter I wrote to Mr. Moorehead, but without any thought of publication. I see there is only one mistake in it, which I have corrected. Mr. Moorehead’s copy had it that the deputy marshals received only $4, and I have made it read $400, instead of $4.00, and I also have taken the liberty of changing the words “ half-breed ” to “ mixed breed,” as I think that is a more respectful term. STATEMENT OF REY. GILFILLAN AS TO PAST CONDITION OF CHIPPEWAS. WASHINGTON, D. C., December 9, 1910. Hon. WARREN K. MooreHEAD, Andover, Mass. My Dear Sir: Your favor of 8th instant has just reached me, and it gives me pleasure to answer your inquiries. The first is, “ While there was much suffering when you were misssionary at White Earth, Pine Point, Twin Lakes, ete., is it not your opinion that there was less swindling than at the present time?” - In answer I would say that I do not consider there was any suffering at all to speak of from June, 1873, when I went there, till along toward 1898, when I left. The Indians raised garden produce; many had fine fields of wheat. They could gather all the wild rice they wanted to; fish were abundant. Some of the men made two or three hundred dollars by the muskrat hunt each spring. They made a good deal by furs. Some hunters killed as many as 40 deer in a winter. They made maple sugar. They had all the berries they could gather. From all these varied sources they made a good living. They had unlimited fuel at their doors. They were rent free. I have heard people say, and I believe it, that there was not nearly so much poverty or suffering as in a white city, where the poor have only one resource—wages. If they had wished to raise a litttle more vegetables, as potatoes, corn, etc., they could have lived on the fat of the land. They were in those days happy, peaceful, and contented communities. To the above-enumerated sources of income of theirs I omitted to mention that there passed through my hands for them, given by the Episcopal mission, more than $130,000 in money for all imaginable purposes—from spectacles to building churches for them and supporting their children in schools. There were several thousand dollars’ worth of clothing sent me for them by charitable people. There was no crime during the 25 years I was there, although for many years there was not even Indian police. There was no instance of a holdup or robbery, not to speak of greater offenses. Life and property were absolutely safe—far safer than in any white community I know. None of them would ever have thought of molesting anyone. They were in those days happy, peaceful, harmless people. As to how the present state contrasts with that, you have been out there lately and know better than I. As to your second question, whether there was less swindling than at the present time, I would say that then there was none at all. The Indians had no lands'to sell; no property of any kind except their little patches of gardens, their little furs, wild rice, e.c. There was nothing to tempt the cupidity of the white man. As to how that contrasts with the present, you have been out there and know better than I. , But I ought to qualify this by saying that for some years in the nineties there was a great deal of swindling of them unwittingly perpetraied: by the Government, for an account of which I refer you to my inclosed printed state- ment made to the Mohonk Conference in 1898, which you will find on page 13 of the inclosed pamphlet. And that you may know that the statements made therein are true, I may inform you that the then Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Hon. William Jones, who went to the ground and personally investi- gated, indorsed upon that statement: “I find that the statements herein made by Mr. Gilfillan are in the main: correct.” This indorsement does not appear WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2059 on the -.py I send you, but is on other copies. To briefly specify the he us under which this swindling was done: It was (A) by billeting upon them tlLree Chippewa commissioners, at $39 a day for the three, making, with their clerks, ete., $88 a day, the Indians said; said commissioners being mostly “‘ politi- cians out of a job” and their positions almost sinecures. Secondly, by re- peated farcial “estimating” of their pine; three several ‘‘ estimations” (pre tended) covering a period of perhaps nine years; two of said estimations cost- ing $360,000, and then done dishonestly in the interests of those who bought the pine, whereas the real wor.b of the work, done honestly, was only $6,000. Thirdly, by cu.ting green pine, but paying for it as ‘‘ dead and down” pine, so getting it for 75 cents a thousand instead of for $5 a thousand, the then value, now I believe $10 a thousand. But most destructive of all was the swindling done by fire; the timber being fired to allow of its being cut as “dead and down” and paid for at 75 cents a thousand instead of $5. It was a pitiful sight to see those magnificent pine fores.s, where I used to ride for 70 miles on a stretch through great pine woods, shapely and tall, the trees reaching up, it seemed, 100 feet, that, like the buffalo, could never be replaced, now all blackened and scarred, killed and dead. The glory of the State of Minnesota was gone when in the nineties her magnificent pine forests that covered so large an area of her northern par. were fired to get the Indians’ pine for 75 cents a thousand. Now, as to your next question, whether there was more drinking among the Indians then than now. I am glad to say that for many years after 1873, when I first knew them, there was, one may say, no drinking among the Indians. The mixed bloods, who were mostly French-Canadian mixed bloods, always drank a little, but the Indians were remarkably free from it. The White Earth Indians lived 22 miles from the railroad, the nearest place where they could get liquor; they were almost that distance from the nearest white men. The Red Lake Indians were 100 miles from the railroad, the Cass Lake 100, the Leech Lake 70 miles. They were almost as far from any white men, except the Government employees and the missionaries. So they were secluded from the white man and his vices. But the great reason of their immunity was the missions. The influence of the Gospel and the church in their secluded position kept them safe. It is no reflection on the White Earth Indians to say that in the place from which they had been removed in 1868—Crow Wing— they had fallen most dreadfully under the dominion of the “‘firewater,” both men and women. They were in a most dreadful state of degradation from that cause. But never was the power of the Gospel more signally shown than in their cleansing and renovation on the White Earth Reservation. I was trav- eling constantly on all the reservations—White Earth, Cass Lake, Red Lake, Leech Lake. I knew them all, and met them all the time and for years at a time, especially on the White Earth Reservation. I never saw a drunk Indian, nor even one that I thought had tasted liquor. They had become communi- cants of the church, had their family prayers, their weekly prayer meetings from house to house, where they exhorted each other to steadfastness in the Christian life. What had such a people to do with liquor? Some of them, who at Crow Wing had been in the lowest depths, told me that they had not tasted liquor in 20 years, others for other periods; and I know they told the truth. Among all the chiefs, numbering perhaps 20, on White Earth Reservation, there was just one who drank, and he, I am informed, had the liquor supplied to him by a mixed blood, who, in payment, got him to swing the Indians to his schemes. But into this fair garden of temperance Satan drew his shining trail and toward the last years of my residence there sadly marred it. It was found that much money could be made out of Indians drinking, and it soon grew up into a most profitable industry. It came about in this way: Congress, as everybody knows, passed a law that liquor should not be sold or given to In- dians. A set of men arose who saw the money there was in that; they arrested Indians who had taken a drink, or as witnesses; took them to St. Paul or Duluth, fiddled with them a little, and then presented a bill of $400, I believe, to the Government for each Indian, which money was paid, and they divided it up among them. The Indians had all the whisky they wanted while under the care of these deputy marshals, as they were called ; they kept drunk while with them, and they brought plenty of liquor home with them to the reserva- tions when they returned. They did not want to stop the Indians drinking ; they encouraged it; the more drinking the more cases and the more money for them. This was found so profitable that it grew to a monstrous height. Once 2060 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, they had, it was said, every adult male Indian on the White Earth Reservation in St. Paul in whisky cases, a distance of, say, 240 miles, and for every one of those men they got perhaps $400. The most of the deputy marshals who made the arrests were French-Canadian mixed bloods of the lowest character, nearly all of whom openly and freely drank themselves, though in the eyes of the law Indians, like the Indians they arrested; and a high official of the United States Government told the writer that one of those half breeds made $5,000 a year out of it, as much perhaps as the salaries of the members of the Cabinet of the United States Government. How many hundreds of thousands of dol- lars or how many millions they got out of the Government by this swindle under the forms of law it would be interesting to know. Some of those mixed bloods worked that gold mine for 18 years. The loss of so much money to the Government was pitiful, but not half so pitiful as the terrible demoralization . of the Indians by the operations of those men. Here again the good intentions of the Government in passing that law, that liquor must not be given or sold to Indians, was turned into death and destruction to them, and became most ‘ bitter gall in its carrying out by the agents of the Government to enrich theniselves. So the answer te your question as to whether the Indians drank more then er. now must be that in the early years after 1873, when there was just one honest white deputy marshal named Nichols, they drank practically none at all; most of them never tasting it for years; but that later, after the swarm of mixed-blood deputy marshals arose, there was much drinking under the manipu- lation of those men, restrained, however, by their very great Jack of money, for at that time none of them had got any. As to your other question, namely, the relative healthfulness of the Indians then and now, I would say that there was always much tuberculosis among them, owing to their crowding into one-room cabins, heated very hot in winter, without ventilation; and if there was one’tubercular patient, that one spitting ever everything so that if there was one sick in a family he or she almost neces- sarily communicated the infection to everyone who was infectible. They say that formerly, when they lived practically in the open air, winter and summer, in their birch-bark wigwams, though in a 40-degree-below-zero temperature in winter, and lived on a flesh diet, that consumption was unknown among them; but in the transition state, when shut up in the one-room cabin, living on salt pork and heavy flour bread, and in many other insanitary ways, the ravages of consumption have been serious. Whether worse now than in the days from 1873 to 1898 I do not know. I only remember a few who had sore eyes, which, I, suppose was trachoma, in those days. Believe me, very respectfully, yours, J. A. GILFILLAN. Mr. Moorrueap. Mr. Chairman, some of this evidence I have may not be relevant; for instance, No. 5 is Mr. Farr’s letter to me, in which Mr. Farr sends a copy of the Indian Office letter. His letter to the Indian Office, telling about White Earth and what was going on, should be in there. The Cuarrman. Let us see it. _ Mr. Moorengap. It was put in by me because it shows that the Indian Office was notified of what was going on. [Hands letter to the chairman. |, The Cuamaman. Mr. Moorehead offers in evidence a copy of a letter. headed and dated as follows: “Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Minneapolis, Minn., July 20, 1906; Hon. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.”; and signed by J. R. Farr, general superintendent of logging. Mr. Farr, who is now present, informs the committee that this letter is already in the record, in connection with his testimony ; therefore it is unnec- essary to insert it again. Mr. Moorseneap. No. 6 is the original of a letter addressed to me by Father Felix, the Catholic priest at Ponsford, in which he says he notified the Indian Office twice of what was going on. The Cuairman. Are you familiar with Father Felix’s signature. Mr. Moorrneap. I am not very familiar with it. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2061. The Cuarrman. How do you know that this is his letter? Mr. Mooreneap. Because I wrote to him for information and re- ceived that letter in response. I do not know that he signed it, but I suppose he did. The Caiman. You received it in due course of correspondence with him? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorce. You have had subsequent correspondence with him relative to this? Mr. Mooreueap, No, sir; I have written one or two letters about the health of the Indians only. The CHATEMAN, What do you say as to the genuineness of the sig- nature ¢ : Mr. Mooreneap. As far as I know, he signed that letter, but I de not know his signature very well. The Cuarrman. We will let it goin. You may read it. Mr. Moorehead proceeded to the reading of the letter, as follows: FATHER FELIX NOTIFYING INDIAN OFFICE OF FRAUDS. PonsrorD, MinN., September 5. 1910. Mr. W. K. MoorEHEAD, Andover, Wass. Dear Siz: Yours of August 9 was forwarded to Leech Lake, but I did not get it there somehow. It was returbed here a few days ago. I am sorry I did not get it in time to answer you promptly. I wrote twice to the department at Washington in regard to the sale of land and timber, calling the attention of the Indian Department to the manner in which sales were made and that the Indians, instead of being benefited, were losing everything they had. If I am not greatly mistaken, Father Aloysius, ‘of White Earth, told me that he had recommended the establishment of a kind of land office at White Earth, so that all sales were under the direct super- yision of the Government. But, as you know, nothing was done. Last month, on the 25th, the Indians held a council and selected some to go to Washington in December. To the delegation belong Rev. Charles Wright, Dedagigoneiath, Gagandosh, Ah bawigijig, and Jim Bassette. Whether they can do anything there or not remains to be seen. The crops here this year are almost a toal failure. We had no rain all sum- mer, so the Indians wil be pretty hard up next winter. Hoping to see you soon, I remain, Sincerely, Fatuer Fetix, O. S. B. The Cuarrman. It would probably be of interest to have the letters which Father Felix wrote the bureau, as indicated in that letter. Mr. O’Brien. That is just what I was going to suggest. Prob- ably Mr. Meritt can make a search and find out whether or not they are available. The Cuarrman. If we could have those by to-morrow morning, they could go in in this connection. What is your next exhibit? ; Mr. Moorrneap. Mr. Chairman, can we set aside the next four or five, as they do not appear to be relevant. They are just for my own guidance? ; The Cuazrman. There is certainly nothing in that which we would want in our record if it is merely a minute of your own. The one you have marked in red pencil “ No. 8” is a report, dated at Pine Point, April 1, 1909. : Mr. Grorcr. As to destitution and diseases among the Indians, etc. Mr. Moorensap. Yes, sir; the original is on file in the Indian Office. 2062 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuatrman. Why should we not have this report? Mr. Grorcr. It was summarized in the statement you made, was it not? Mr. Moorrurap. Yes, sir. . The Cuairman. It would be better if we had the original. Unless you know, no one here could tell whether or not this was the original language. Mr. Moorrveap. I made copies from the originals in their office. The Cuarrmay. ,That should go into the record. The report, subsequently furnished, is as follows: REPORT OF CONDITIONS AT PINE POINT, APRIL 1, 1909. Upon arrival at Park Rapids I secured the services of Dr. P. D. Winship, who has practiced 22 years among the Ojibewa Indians and is the best posted man on general conditions hereabouts. I have known him 10 years and know his character and reputation to be high. Dr. Winship and the school doctor, Stalberg, went about gathering statistics, all of which will be found in their technical medical reports herewith submitted, on pages 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Photographs taken by myself accompany these medical reports to emphasize the horrible conditions prevalent. Reference to these reports will show that while your children in school are fairly healthy, your children out of school are diseased, and that the average of “health” given for school] children is not correct. Mr. N. B. Hurr I have examined carefully, as well as his matron, Mrs. Dragoon, and teachers, Misses Sawyer and Kocher. Your assistants and inter- preters and police are all efficient, as is Dr. Stalberg. I have no fault to find with them, but upon the conditions under which they are working—and working well—I wish to comment. There are no bathing facilities for either boys or girls. Common tubs are used by the matron and sometimes washboilers are brought into service as bath- tubs. There is only one fair-sized caldron in each building (dormitories) and the heating of water during the severe winters in sufficient quantities to give 75 boys and girls—and 12 employees—baths, presents a problem. There is a small sink in both boys’ and girls’ quarters in the wash room. Under this stands a bucket, which must needs be emptied many times during morning, noon, and evening washings. The laundry needs repairs. There are but 2 or 3 small washers for the entire laundry work of the school. A steam washer is needed badly. The boys’ and girls’ buildings are not well heated, and the children suffer during the winter. The children should sleep in single beds, should have new beds and mat- tresses, as the present ones are insanitary. : The ventilation of the schoolrooms is very bad. The teachers inform me that in winter the rooms are frequently 40 degrees or below. Colds and sick- ness naturally result from such conditions. There should be new and modern blackboards, the present ones being crudely painted and have scaled off. There should be a Christmas vacation, as the teachers and children become weary and there is lack of concentration upon studies. This letting up or lowering of standard is due to the long period of school work—September to June. In the dining rooms you should use heavy china, as the ironware scales, and Drs. Winship and Stalberg inform me that consumption and syphilis are com- municated by means of cracked ironware cups and plates. The children throw these ironware articles about, knowing that they will not break. Of heavy china they would be more careful and would be, also, taught the use of such articles. The books in the schoolrooms are in bad condition, and new primers and other simple works are needed at once. A desk, a bookcase, and a new clock are wanted. The clock is ornamental merely, having no works inside of it. There should be a clothes rack. In winter the boys and girls have no place wherein to leave or hang their belongings, and therefore many children come without wraps. The water-closets are near, are shallow, and a menace to health. All slops are thrown out of doors upon the ground. No sewage system obtains. There is WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2063 a shortage of tools. Two condemned horses are in use; a new team should be provided. Soil is naturally sandy and pure, but because of these conditions is now, the doctors tell me, full of germs. Sewer and better toilet facilities should be provided without delay. Present system—or the lack of it—breeds syphilis and consumption. Of more importance that the fact that these poor people are dying of con- sumption and syphilis; is the situation with reference to their lands and timber. The inclosed affidavits will show that the bankers, real-estate men, lawyers, and others, of Detroit, Franzee, Ogema, and Park Rapids, have taken every possible advantage of them. In order to be sure in the taking of these affidavits, I have used two inter- preters and have repeated back and forth. I have had as witnesses to family histories, the three oldest men of the tribes—men of clear understanding—and lave had them day after day, repeat what they said the day before. All the testimony as to full-bloods’ ancestors given by the men is sound. They have been my main stay. In 25 years’ study of Indians, I have never found such a deplorable state of affairs. Reading of these affidavits will convince you, I trust, more fully than could any poor, weak words of mine of the widespread dishonesty of the 17 white people and firms concerned in swindling these defenseless Indians. From 8 in the morning until 10 at night, I have take such testimony as is handed you herewith. It is enough to make one blush for his race, and I pray that the honorable commissioner will act immediately and set the wheels of justice in motion in order that the Pine Point people may have their own again. ; Minors’ lands have been sold, full-bloods have been made to testify that they were half-breeds; papers and patents have been forcibly retained under the plea that the lawyer could “take better care of them; Indians have been refused permission to examine the courthouse records; and to cap the climax, the county treasurer is involved in these transactions, and also the register of deeds. I intend to send you 40 to 50 such affidavits as the inclosed within the next two weeks. I go back to Pine Point—that being the line needing defense in this campaign. ° : The smaller buyers, I am told, sell to the lumber companies. These, you may know, are in a “trust.” They are very powerful. The white people are all excited and strong statements against me are in circulation. I suppose that Gus Beaulieu will come out in his paper against me—he being involved deeply in the transactions. I want you to stand back of me until I get at the bottom of the slough of despond—if it has a bottom. There is so much to do here in order to procure testimony that will hold in court, that I shall spend more time than I intended. I shall send you a longer report soon. It is necessary for me to procure evidence in the towns where these swindlers live. I can not do that work properly and attend to the Indian’s wants, hear his, testimony, etc. ‘Therefore, I make bold to suggest a plan, which, if the honorable commissioner will sanction, will be of great benefit to us in convict- ing these fellows. Mr. Batchelder, employed by the State of Minnesota in ferreting out timber steals from his State, is a loyal citizen and upright man. He has met persons concerned in these deals and heard their talk—they being free with him as he is not employed by the United States authorities. I would like to have Mr. Batchelder quietly collect evidence for me (you) which he is still working for his State. As his commission is more or less honorary, he would. I think, work for us for $5 per day. He is a valuable man, discreet and not of the detective type. I need such a man. I know not the ways of timber men—he does. If you will telegraph me giving your con- sent I shall be under obligations. As the timber men are often in the railway telegraph offices and as the message has to be telephoned over public wire from Park Rapids. I would suggest that you use this sentence: “I am mail- ing you a report and letterheads,” I will understand this to mean that I can hire Batchelder—if he will accept—for three of four weeks. You, Mr. Commissioner, sent me here to obtain facts. I think that the general situation here, when known to the world, will cause such an upheaval of public sentiment that these powerful bankers and lumbermen will bitterly regret the day—three years ago—when they brought about the passage of the Cobb and other bills: and entered upon a career of swindle pure and simple. I think that the decent people of Minnesota will speak in no uncertain voice. 2064 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, There is now a movement, headed by Gus Beaulieu—that very bad Indian— to have an Indian commission to pass upon who are competent to sell lands,. who are full bloods, etc. I beg of you to fight this with all the great resources at your command. ’ I recommend that you give Supt. Herr more power. He is an able man and should have authority in excess of that now enjoyed by him. Ile is better posted upon the timber-health-whisky situation than anyone I have met. The Indians, in council, passed a vote of confidence in him and his management. The doctors suggest that we have here a sanitarium, well equipped and nod- ern, in order that we may save these people. Their homes are such (see med- ical report) that we can not save them there. I beg that a sandy ridge be... selected near here, 6 miles north, and not the low, swampy region selected by the commission of last winter. This site was near White Earth, and is not as healthy or as convenient as the one near here. The consumptives are more numerous here or near here. In the body of my report I have offered several recommendations. I shall make another report upon White Earth and Leech Lake. I shall be back here Monday night for two weeks. : The timber thefts, the health problem, the local condition of the school build- ings demand attention. The whisky problem shall be treated later. I have not yet all the data, but mucb whisky is brought in by white men, and the effects are far-reaching. Respectfully submitted. Special United Statcs Indian Agent. Pine Point, April 1, 1909. Gentlemen from the Indian Commission appearing in the room, Judge Burch suggested the committee take a recess for five minutes. The Cuarrman. The committee will be in recess for a few minutes. AFTER RECESS. At the end of the recess, the chairman called the hearing to order. The Cuarrman. Gentlemen, I regret to say that I have a mandate from the Capitol to go over there at once, and I am compelled to leave you right now, and that will leave the committee without a quorum. It is so late now that I fear I could not get back in time to continue this hearing this evening, so we will have to adjourn until to-morrow morning. Judge Burcu. That is very unfortunate. The Cuarrman. It is indeed. In the meantime, Mr. Moorehead, there is much matter among the papers you have that is clearly irrelevant to the inquiry we are now making. I wish you would go over the papers you have and take out the things you think we would want put in our record and have them only with you when we meet again. Mr. Mooreneap. All right, sir. Judge Burcu. I will take advantage of this opportunity to go over the papers with Mr. Moorehead and lend him my advice. Whereupon, by direction of the chairman, the committee adjourned until 10.30 o’clock a. m. to-morrow, Thursday, March 7, 1912. SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Thursday, March 7, 1912. The subcommittee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., with Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) and Hon. Henry George, jr., present. Appearances as formerly. The Cuamman. The committee will come to order. I believe we are ready to proceed, Judge Burch. TESTIMONY OF MR. WARREN K. MOOREHEAD—Continued. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Moorehead, you will resume your statement to the committee in your own manner. Mr. Moorrneap. Mr. Chairman, following your suggestion last night, Mr. O’Brien kindly assisted me for some hours in going over this evidence and eliminating all that he thought was not pertinent, and we have as a result about 10 or 12 statements, the others having been set aside. He suggested that there were four or five matters he deemed important that I should take up in some detail, and I have made a note of those. These are in addition to the printed report which I read to you yesterday. The first is the relations between myself and Mr. Linnen, which he thought should require a few words of explanation. We went there on an equality, but he ranked me as inspector, and, having had more experience in this service, he worked on the more important cases and handled all the matters relating to white people, records in the court- house, etc., and I worked more with’ the Indians, following his ad- vice. We worked in perfect harmony together on these two lines. Second, as to the inspection service: As nearly as I could tell from - talking with the employees and the Indians at White Earth, T came to the conclusion that the inspection service of the Indian Office was not what it should be. As a specific illustration, an inspector named Dalby, and I believe there was another man named Davis, came to White Earth and went over the accounts, ete., and they condemned, at two or three places on the reservation, worthless articles. ‘The superintendent at Pine Point, Mr. Hurr, handed me a long paper of two or three pages, listing, I do not know whether 100 or 200 worth- less articles, such as beds, chairs, etc., and he said it was a part of the duty of an inspector or special agent to condemn all these things. I went out and worked at this pile of stuff, back of the school build- ing, and considered it as junk, not worth anything. I told him that it was condemned and to have it destroved, but he said that that was 2065 2066 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. not the proper method of procedure, and that Mr. Dalby and this other man who had been an inspector would spend the day going over these articles and checking them up to see if any of them were of use. I thought that was a waste of time, and had it all condemned, Well, these Indians and employees around the agency could give no answer to my question how it was that the inspectors and special agents who had been at White Earth did not seem to grasp the serious problem there, but were concerned with these minor details, I should say. I asked them particularly, for my own information, to find out why it was that they spent their time on these minor things, and I concentrated my work on what I thought were the important things there at White Earth—that is, the health and property rights of these Indians. Third, in answer to your question of yesterday Mr. Burcu (interposing). Before you proceed, if I may be allowed to interrupt, do you expect to elaborate upon this second proposition concerning these inspectors that I regarded as exceedingly important’ later on? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; I just mentioned what I had heard there and seen there of their work. Mr. Burcu. Then I raise the question with the committee as to whether we should not proceed to interrogate the witness to the fullest extent upon this to me very important branch of this investi- gation, namely, what are these inspectors paid for, what are they good for, and how do they interpret their duties, as indicating how these conditions upon the White Earth Reservation came to be prac- tically passed or ignored by the authorities here until Mr. Moore- head went there? If the committee would like it, I would prefer right at this point, if he has not some elaboration to make of that matter, to bring out some additional facts. The Crarrman. J think it would save time and make a more con- nected narrative to exhaust the topics under the several heads as he deals with them. Mr. Burcu. You stated that from information you learned that one inspector, Dalby, and another by the name of Davis had pre- ceded you there. Did you learn how immediately previous to your coming their visit had been? Mr. Mooreweap. I can not answer that specifically; but I should judge a year; I should judge within a year. Mr. Burcu. Was it in anticipation of your going there—was it after you applied? Mr. Moorrunap. No, sir; I think it was before. Mr. Burcu. I understood you to state yesterday that after you applied for authority to go there and investigate three of the bureau’s best men, namely, Mr. McLaughlin, Mr. Holcomb, and one other—— Mr. Mooreneap (interposing). Mr. Abbott. Mr. Burcu. Assistant Commissioner Abbott? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That they were sent there in advance of you or in your place. Suppose you repeat the circumstances. ae Moorenrap. That was at Leech Lake, Red Lake, and Cass ake. Mr. Burcu. And not White Earth? Mr. Moorrvzap. No, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2067 sue Georcr. That was subsequent to the White Earth investiga- tion ¢ Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And that cut you off from going to these places? Mr. MoorzHeap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was any statement made to you regarding the condi- tions over there—that is, any hearsay statement ? Mr. Moorrneap. The Indians wrote to me direct. Mr. Burcu. Did you have any other source of information as to these three places? Mr. Moorruegap. No, sir; I.took the Indians’ information. Mr. Burcu. What was the general purport of the Indians’ state- ments—I mean from these three outside places? Mr. Moorrneap. That a man named Frank Broker, who was the Government scaler or log measurer, was short scaling the timber. Some of the Indians wrote to me to that effect, and there was a com- plaint about it—that is, that they were stacking up these logs and measuring or scaling them so that they would show less than their gross amount. Mr. Burcu. In other words, that they were beating them out of their timber in the scaling or measuring of it? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; I do not noe that personally. Then, they said that they did not like the agent there. I think that was at Leech Lake. It was stated that he went about with his steamboat or in a little boat that he used as his private yacht, but perhaps that was an exaggeration. It was stated that he went about in his boat a good deal and did not attend to the Indians, and they complained about that. They said there was much sickness. They heard that we were at White Earth at work there; that we had helped the Otter Tails and Mississippis; and they wanted us to come up, or, perhaps, wanted me to come up, to help them at these three places. As a mem- ber of the board, I was anxious to go into the field. Then I got the permission of our board to go there; and the board voted what money it had, as I testified yesterday, and also the Indian Industrial League of Boston voted money, and one or two friends put up more money. Then, instead of going at once, as I had the legal right to do, I went to the Indian Office and told them that I was going. I told Assistant Indian Commissioner Abbott, Mr. Valentine being away. Mr. Burcu. I think the committee lost the last statement by Mr. Moorehead, and I will ask the reporter to repeat it. és ae reporter read the last preceding statement by Mr. Moore- ead. : Mr. Burcu. What I wanted the committee to note especially was the fact that he went to the Indian Office and told Assistant Com- nissioner Abbott of his intentions, Mr. Valentine being away. Now, Mr. Moorehead, what happened ? Mr. Mooreneap. I asked for the reports of any inspectors who had been to Leech Lake, Red Lake, and Cass Lake, in order to learn what they had learned or reported at those places. I got the reports and spent some hours going over them. If my memory serves me correctly, I could not see that these men had reported anthing of con- sequence. If I remember correctly, it was the usual story of school inspection, the condemnation of articles, and reports of the squab- bles between employees, but nothing about the timber and health 2068 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. | problems. I returned these papers and went to my home, expecting to go in two or three weeks to these reservations, having a leave of absence from our school authorities. The next thing I heard was that these three men had gone out there—two or three weeks later. I refer to Messrs. Abbott, McLaughlin, and Holcomb. Mr. Burcu. Did you say, Mr. McLaughlin? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir; Maj. McLaughlin; the chief supervisor, Mr. Holcomb; and the assistant commissioner, Mr. Abbott. That is what I understood, that they had gone. Mr. Burcu. Well, what about your going? Mr. Mooreneap. Well, I concluded that if they had gone ahead of me, it would be unnecessary for me to go. I thought that they would take up the problems. Mr. Burcu. Did you later examine their reports? Did you get any reports, or have you been able to do so? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; I wrote two or three letters to the Indian Office respecting the reports and received a report by Maj. Mc- Laughlin dealing with minor matters, but no report from Assistant Commissioner Abbott and no report by Mr. Holcombe. Mr. Burcu. And, so far as you. know, these reservations have not been officially visited’ since? Mr. Moorrueap. Not so far as I know. Mr. Grorcr. When was that? , Mr. Mooreneap. Our board met in February, 1911—that is, fully a year ago—and gave me that authority. I understand that these men went either in March or about the 1st of April. I can not give you the exact date. Mr. Burcu. In 1911? , Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir; so it has been nearly a year. Mr. Burcu. I want to ask you what you would consider an in- spection of a reservation? What would you regard as a businesslike and comprehensive inspection of a reservation by the inspectors? Mr. Moorruegap. First, to read the previous reports made on it; second, to go to the office and talk with the employees; and, third, and most important, to go among the Indians—to go into the cabins and take their statements. The inspector should spend his time on that rather than talking with the white employees, and then vou should make your generalizations from that and see whether they were suffering as to loss of health or loss of property, and what progress they were making in industries. In other words, get at the essential facts there and find out the trouble and the cause of the trouble, if there is or was any trouble on that particular reservation. Mr. Burcu. What did you say you learned was the real case with these Indians on the reservation you had previously visited ? Mr. Moorrueap. I was no inspector myself, and the people there told me that Mr. Linnen and myself were the only men who had come there and gone over the reservation and got the facts. We wondered why these other men, who had been long in the service, did not go among these people and see this poverty, sickness, etc., and report it. They may have done so, but I do not know about it. The Indians say that they did not. Mr. Burcu. What did you find from the reports that you were investigating ? ; Mr. Moorzurap. They were just the usual reports. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2069 Mr. Burcu. Of what they found out respecting the attendance at the schools, etc. ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; the accounts, condemned articles, and squabbles between the doctor and teacher, etc. Mr. Burcu. They could have made such an inspection without taking the shine off their shoes or the starch out of their collars? Mr. Moorrueap. I do not know as to that. Mr. Burcu. It was the usual sort of agency inspection? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. The Cuarruan. Do you not believe that if the office in Washing- ‘ton demanded such reports as you have described as proper reports to make, the department or the bureau would get such reports from the inspectors? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir; I should think so. The Cratruan. Have you any opinion as to whether the reports made and sent in by the inspector were made with a view of meeting the demands here by the bureau, or whether the fault of the inspec- tion reports lay with the inspector himself? Mr. Moorenran. I can not answer that specifically. I do not know why it was. The Cuairman. Have you an opinion as to whether the head of the bureau, or the bureau management, in Washington, really wanted radical, complete, and truthful reports, or such as you have described ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; Mr. Valentine told me he wanted that kind of report. The Cuarrman. Do you think, if he wanted them, that he could get them from his inspectors in the field, if he directed them to do such work and make such reports? Mr. Mooreuxrap. I should think so; if he issued preemptory orders io them to bring in such reports. The Crarrman. Have you ever known of an instance where an agent in the field who made truthful reports, showing the facts to be just Bs they existed, was degraded or separated from the service soon after? ; Mr. Moorrenzap. There is but one case that I would be competent to speak of, and I do not know all the details of that case. That was the Johnson case, where he served six or seven years, or, at least, five years, faithfully as an inspector, trying to stop the sale of whisky to the Indians. He made hundreds of arrests, and, as I understand it—and if this is wrong, I stand corrected—he was thrown out over a dispute of about $3. I believe that was the technicality that Assistant Commissioner Abbott brought up. That was the contention of Mr. Johnson in his public address in Boston about three weeks ago. Mr. Johnson also published a pamphlet setting forth his claim, which has some bitterness and some personalties in it, but, in the main, it is a narrative we assume to be correct. It appears that he did his duty in the Southwest. on one of those reservations—not the White Earth—and was attacked by the interests, and Assistant Com- raissioner Abbott, as I understand it, put him out of the service. The Cuarrman. Have you ever gone back of that even, and sought or inquired about the influence of local politicians on the bureau and the officers acting under it with reference to the character of the reports that should be made? 2070 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Moorruean. Nothing specific; no, sir. I have understood that the interests would advise those men making the investigations, and I judge that was true in the White Earth matter, after talking with Mr. Hall, when I asked for his cooperation. That is my opinion. I have no exact evidence or letters to substantiate that, but there seemed to be a stone wall stopping you when you went into these matters. ; The Cuatrman. Crediting the commissioner and those under him with good intention—— 4 Mr. Moorrueasp (interposing). Yes, sir. The Cuatrman (continuing). Have you observed anything which would lead you to conclude that there was a power back of the com- missioner which did much to control the affairs on that reservation? Mr. Mooreneap. I do not know of that power specifically; no, sir. The Cuarrman. I do not ask for the specific location of it, but has your observation led you to believe that there is such a power ? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir; but that is just a private opinion of mine. I can not prove it at all. I can not explain it. The Cuatrman. Will you explain for the committee, if the com- missioner really wanted his subordinates and inspectors to report the conditions on that reservation as they actually existed, why he could not get it done? : Mr. Moorrveap. I should think he could get it done if they turned in the reports. Then if the reports were suppressed that would be a different matter. The Cuarrman. If he directed it to be done, and it was not done, where would you locate the blame? Mr. Moorznman. If he directed it to be done and it was not done, I would say that these men were either insubordinate or that they had been told not to do it by somebody else. The Cuairman. In the particular case you refer to you say it was directed to be done? Mr. Moorrxeap. In my case. The Cuartrman. You also say it was not done. Now, how do you account for the failure? Mr. Moorenesp. I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman, I do not quite understand. The Cuatrman. In the White Earth matter which you now speak of, when these parties went out on the reservation and made reports, talking about the schools and squabbles between the teachers and the superintendent and matters that were really of little conse- quence when, in fact, there were very serious grievances existing there which went unnoticed, and yet these men, you say, were sent out with instructions to find out the material facts and report them, and they did not do it. Why did they not do it, and why was not the matter gone into further by the head of the office, who was dis- obeyed or ignored ? Mr. Moorenrap. I do not know why that happened. The Cuairman. Well, it must have been due to incapacity or worse in the head of the office, or else there was some power back of him encase than he which prevented him from insisting on his de- mands. Mr. Moorrneap. Perhaps I could shed more light by giving a little personal illustration. When I was at White Earth I heard of a WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2071 man—Dr. P. D. Winship, by name—who prepared some medical statistics of the White Earth Reservation, as he had been practicing there for 20 years among these Indians. I started to drive with him to Ponsford, a place close by the reservation, and we stopped at a bank to get a Government Treasury check cashed. The banker joked Winship about Winship having to identify me, and wanted to know if this was a land investigation that we were starting. If I remember the doctor’s statement correctly, the bank was paying money to have itself investigated, or words to that effect. Now, after we had started that investigation, Dr. Winship, who had become a medical assistant, along with Dr. Stahlberg and several others, told me that we were up against the big interests there at White Earth. It was a trusted man who told me that; in fact, a man in the regular Indian Service. He told me that there were lumber and land interests that we were up against. In fact, you could very easily see after working there ‘at White Earth for a little while that there were other interests— interests that would send word to you about reports; but what effect that would have on other reports of other men I do not know. The Cuatrman. Well, do you believe from what you learned there that these interests had sufficient influence to cause the removal from office of anyone who would disregard their requests or suggestions? Mr. Mooreueap. I should think so, Mr. Chairman, but I can not prove it. : The Cuatrman. From the surroundings and the situation, as you knew it, would it, in your judgment, account, at least in part, for the fact that the head of the Indian Office could not get such reports from his inspectors as he directed them to make? Mr. Mooreueran. That might be. The Carman. Mr. Merritt, are you able to furnish the reports which resulted from the visit of Messrs. Abbott, Holcombe, and Mc- Laughlin to White Earth ? Mr. Burcu. No, sir; to Leech Lake, Red Lake, and Cass Lake. The Cuarman. We would like to have those reports. Mr. Gzorce. I want to inquire again whether you have heard from the Forestry Bureau ? : Mr. Mertrr. Yes, sir; we had a representative of our office go over to the Forestry Service, and they made a thorough search of their files for this memorandum regarding the White Earth matter, and they were unable to find any such memorandum in their files. Mr. Georex. And no report or anything at all of that nature? Mr. Merrrr. No, sir; there was no memorandum made by Mr. Bruce on that subject. ; ; Mr. Burcu. It is in evidence upon the part of Mr. Linnen, while testifying, I think, at Detroit, or possibly at Minneapolis, and on the part of other witnesses, that on the occasion of your joint investiga- tion he pried into the most minute details of the agency at White Earth; that he looked into the cellars and outbuildings, and the conduct of the various employees, and that, in addition to going upon this reservation, you and he had to take testimony. Did you, in these reports, get any such close inspection as that? Mr. Moorenxap. In the conduct of the agency—— ; ; Mr. Burcu (interposing). The men preceding’ you—Smith, Davis, and Dalby? Mr. Mooreueap. No, sir. 2072 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. Burcu. Now, it appeared from that testimony that the cus- tom had been growing up on the part of the superintendent and others of using Government coal to heat their own houses, etc., and that Mr. Linnen was the first to discover that, and that they stated that it had been going on before and they supposed it. was legitimate until he raised the question. Now, did you discover any such inter-. rogation marks in the reports of those inspectors who preceded you or anything like that? Mr. Moorenrap. I do not think so. There may have been a re- port there that I did not see. I probably did not read all of them. Mr. Burcu. I am speaking about Dalby and Davis. Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; I do not remember seeing that. It might have been in. Mr. Burcu. Your notion, then, is that the inspector should inspect everything that should be inspected, and should inspect everything that he could hear of in connection with the reservation ? Mr. MoorreHeap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And you attempted to do that? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What did you find in the Government school at Pine Point? Mr. Moorenean. We found not a very satisfactory situation at Pine Point, but a worse one at White Earth in the large school. Mr. Linnen spoke to me one day, and asked me to go up to the school- house, where, I believe, Superintendent Gowan was in charge. He had, I think, from 100 to 150 children. I went up with Inspector Linnen. We went into that schoolroom, the dining room, the dor- mitories, in the warehouse, and into all the buildings relating to the school system. We found a wretched situation. We found the chil- dren in ragged clothes scrubbing the floors, arranging tables, etc. The table covers were dirty, and none of the tables, save the head table where the older children sat, were provided with knives, forks, and spoons. At the other tables the children had either a knife or spoon or fork, or, in some cases, a knife and spoon. Mr. Linnen, who did the greater part of the work on that, made a report roasting that management. He discharged that man from the United States service. We went into the warehouse, distant 200 or 300 feet, and found new uniforms there, new knives, forks, spoons, plates, cups, etc., and we had these tables put in decent condition for the children to sit at and eat. He was very angry over that situation, and it was the more inexcusable, he claimed, because we had been there for two or three weeks before he went on that inspection tour, and the superintendent ought to have known enough to get things in shape in that time. But that was the situation we found, which you can verify by the report. I did not make that report; I was simply a ook to it, and found it in bad shape. That report was in the es. Mr. Burcu. What did he do? Mr. Moorrennap. He discharged the superintendent. a a Did he take the superintendent down to the Catholic school ? Mr. Moorenmap. I understood that they took some of the teachers down to the Catholic school, 3 miles away, and showed_them how a school should be run, and the people there did not like it; that is, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2073 the teachers and others. The Catholic school was something like an orphan asylum and was doing fine work there, caring for the chil- dren of either the poor Indians or children who had no parents. It was a large institution, and I think had between 100 and 150 pupils in it. They had nice, clean dormitories, a good garden, and very satisfactory tables. These children were all in uniform and seemed te be well fed and contented. I believe Mr. Linnen asked them some questions, if my memory serves me correctly, as to how they were getting along and if they were satisfied, and we talked with some of the employees down there and showed them this school and con- trasted it with the Government school. We felt ashamed of our- selves, because here was a Government school with all this money, etc., and it was not run as well as that Catholic school. : The Cuamman. Was it under the control of the Sisters? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; I think Father Aloysius was the priest and superior in charge of that school, and also of four or five mis- sions. There were four missions—one at Pine Point, one at Rice River, one at Beaulieu—and there was one other mission. Mr. Georcz. There are some things I would like to ask. Have you asked Mr. Valentine for the reports from Inspector McLaughlin and Assistant Commissioner Abbott and other reports touching Red Lake, Cass Lake, and Leech Lake? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; I wrote to the Indian Office. I do not remember whether I addressed my letter to the commissioner or just to the Indian Office, but I wrote asking for these reports. Mr. Georcz. When? ° Mr. Mooreneap. In 1911 and also this year. I think there is some aeane statement as to that here. I have a letter here which I will read: DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR. OFFicE oF INDIAN AFFAIRS. Washington, November 15, 1911. Mr. Warren K. MoorREHEAD, Andover, Jlass. Sir: In response to your letter of November 11, 1911, you are advised that Chief Supervisor E. P. Holcombe established his headquarters in Denver, Colo., in August, 1910. The Indian boarding house, or indigents’ home, at White Earth, has no offi- cial title. I inclose copy of my letter to the commissioner on the timber situation at Leech Lake. Mr. Holcombe has not yet reported on Leech Lake. Neither Mr. Holcombe nor myself have reported on Red Lake or Cass Lake. Respectfully, a F, H. Assott, Assistant Commissioner. He states in that letter that the Indian boarding house, or indi- gents’ home, at White Earth, has no official title. They were calling that the poorhouse, and we changed the name to the boarding house. I recall the fact that I ate dinner there. I understand that they changed the name back to the poorhouse, which several of the In- dians did not like. That letter was written November 15, 1911. Mr. Burcu. Who wrote it? Mr. Mooreneap. Mr. F. H. Abbott. Last night I telegraphed my clerk to send my correspondence with the Indian Office during the months of March, April, and May, of last year, when we had a cer- 78822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-3, vol 2——36 2074 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. tain dispute. That must be brought up here to-morrow, if you give your consent. I expect this correspondence in the morning. Mr. Gzorce. You have not directly answered my question as to whether or not you addressed Mr. Valentine on the subject. Mr. Moorrueap. I addressed Mr. Valentine’s office, I think. Mr. Grorcr. And you have had no direct communication with Mr. Valentine on this subject? Mr. Moorrnmuap. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. So you don’t know whether this has been brought to Mr. Valentine’s attention directly ? Mr. Moorrneap. My official letters, as a member of the board, I used to address to the Indian Office, or to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, but I received letters signed by Mr. Hauke, the chief clerk, or by Mr. Abbott, or some one else, but very seldom by Mr. Valentine. Mr. Meritt. Mail addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs goes to the filing room and is given a number. It goes to the proper section of that office and is answered. Mr. Valentine does not see 25 per cent of the letters that are addressed to the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs. All letters addressed him personally, as R. G. Valentine, are brought to his ‘personal attention, but letters addressed to him as commissioner are not brought to his personal attention. I think I am safe in saying that the commissioner never saw the letter that you addressed to him as Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Grorcr. Then, so far as Mr. Valentine is concerned he may know nothing about this application for information touching these reports. The CuarrMan. In matters involving questions of policy, even if they were addressed to him officially, would not those who handle such letters consult him as to what his policy was or was to be? Mr. Meritt. If they involved matters of important policy they certainly should consult the commissioner, and I do not doubt but what they do in such matters. Mr. Burcu. But who would judge of the importance of the policy? Mr. Merrrr. That would depend upon the assigning officer. Mr. Burcu. Who is the assigning officer? Mr. Meritt. We have assigning officers—— Mr. Burcu (interposing). What is his rank? Mr. Merrirr. We have these assigning officers in the office, and the chiefs of division assign unimportant mail. The Chiefs of the _ Land Division, the Education Division, and the Finance Division assign letters notifying the field officers of action taken and unim- portant mail. We have three officials who sign mail—Mr. Valentine, the commissioner; Mr. Abbott, the assistant commissioner, and Mr. Hauke, the second assistant commissioner. The Cuarrman. Now, along the line of my other question, would not the head of the bureau establish the general lines of policy on which answers would be made by those who were dictating the answers ? Mr. Merrrr. If they involved important matters of policy they would be brought to his attention, and he would direct the policy to be pursued. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2075 The Cuairman. Has the bureau been so run or is it being so run now that some subordinate can depart from the general line of policy laid down by the head of the bureau? Mr. Merirr. I should say not. The Cuatrman. So that in the end the letters, by whomsoever anair would undoubtedly reflect the ideas of the head of the ureau ! Mr. Merirr. They certainly should reflect the ideas of the head of the bureau, but occasionally a letter will get out of the office that does not reflect the ideas of the head of the bureau. The Cuarrman. But that is accidental and occasional ? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. It would be entirely proper, then, whether the head of the bureau saw the particular letter or not, to infer that the letter was in conformity with his views? Mr. Merirr. Ordinarily that would be true. _ The Cuarrman. But more than ordinarily it would be true except in cases where some smart Aleck deliberately departed from the in- structions of his superior? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I did not get an answer that was satisfactory to my question, Mr. Meritt, not who are the assigning officers, but who as- signs or distributes the mail in the Indian Bureau—that is, who assigns the mail to this, that, or the other division or who opens the mail and distributes it? Mr. Merirr. The mails and files section receives the mail. It is opened in that section and is distributed from the mails and files room to the proper sections of the office. Mr. Burcu. And that division has a responsible head ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Does he respond directly for any failure or mistake in doing his duty to the commissioner or the assistant commissioner or the second assistant commissioner ? Mr. Merirr. He is, of course, held respensible for that work. Mr. Burcu. Suppose, for instance, I were to address a letter gen- erally to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs upon a particular topic involving an important question of policy relating to the sale of property, and some one, knowing my position, should be interested in seeing to it that that letter did not come under the eye of the proper person, whether it be the commissioner, the first assistant commissioner, or the second assistant commissioner, to whom it was designed to go, or who would naturally receive it. Suppose some one in that assigning division diverted the letter and put it into hands more favorable to the disposition of it. In other words, would there be any way of checking that up or finding out? . Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir; if it related to the sale of land, and it should be referred to the allotment section, the clerk in charge of the allot- ment section, upon receipt of that letter, would immediately trans- fer it to the chief of the sales section. Mr. Burca. But suppose he did not. You say he would, but sup- pose he did not? Mr. Merrrr. The chief of the division, who would see the letter prepared by the clerk in the allotment section, would, upon receipt of the letter for his initial and return to the clerk of the allotment 2076 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. section, immediately inquire why that letter was prepared in the ‘allotment section rather than in the sales section. : Mr. Burcu. Suppose he was interested in not doing that very thing; that somebody had interested him, and was persuading him “that it was not desirable that it should be done? Mr. Meritt. If it involved a matter of law or policy, the letter would go to the board of review and would be passed on there before going to the assigning officer, and they would have another eheck upon the letter. : Mr. Burcu. Suppose it went into the wastebasket or was burned, who would know anything about it? Mr. Meritt. If it received a filing number upon its receipt in the office, there would be a charge in the files against that letter and ‘somebody would be required to produce it. Mr. Burcu. Would that charge have some note of its contents or give some idea of its contents? : ; : Mr. Menirr. Yes, sir. As soon as a letter is received in the office it is given a file number and the clerk makes out the card. He makes out a blue card and two or three white cards, and these cards show from whom the letter was received, the date of the letter, the date ‘when received, the file number, and a synopsis of its contents. Mr. Burcu. That is what I wanted to find out. Suppose Mr. Moorehead had written to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for the reports of certain special agents. Now, suppose somebody was inter- ested in suppressing any letters of that character that came from Mr. ‘Moorehead and was not desirous of letting them go out or of making answers, for instance, that were true. Suppose the reports were really there, but they wanted to say that they were not there, and thought it best to say that they were not there. Could that be pre- vented? I mean could proper and truthful answers be prevented under your system? Could it be stated to him, in other words, that reports were not there that really were there, or that reports were there which were not there? Mr. Merirr. I do not believe that would be possible under our system. Mr. Burcn. I wanted to find out about your system, that is all. _ Mr. Grorcz. Mr. Moorehead, J believe it was yesterday that you testified about having some difficulty in getting off the reservation. You gave me to understand that there was some influence to be used against your taking off certain information or reports from the ‘reservation, and that you had to go by some mysterious route to get ‘off the reservation with this information. I should like to know whether you have any report on that subject, or whether you ex- pected to go more fully into that? Mr. Moorrueap. No, sir. Mr. Grorcs. I want to ask some questions concerning that. » Mr. Mooreneap. It was a more or less dramatic story, and I thought it was a little lurid to put in here. Mr. Grorcer. I would like to know something about that, and 1 would like for you to tell that story right now. I think my colleague, the chairman, will be as much interested in it as I am. _Mr. Mooreneap. Probably it was this: I received a report, and pos- sibly two reports, but certainly one direct report, that may or may WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2077: not be true, but it worried me for this reason—I was at White Earth alone and I had nobody to depend on. Mr. Linnen was not there. Mr. Grorcr. He had gone away or had not come? Mr. Mooreneap. He had not come. It was the first investigation, and I felt a great responsibility. I was surrounded by all these hostile influences, and we had more or less trouble which it is unnec- essary to go into here. I received information that some of the men interested did not want me to take these affidavits East. That may or may not have been true, but I intended to bring these affi- davits. So I sent Dr. Stahlberg, the Government physician, to Park Rapids, which is the nearest railroad point, 18 miles distant. It was about the middle of April, 1909. I started him at 10 o’clock in the morning, and he got down there at 2 o’clock in the afternoon. He met one of the Detroit men and a doctor living there, whom I have referred to before—Dr. Winship—and they asked him, so Dr. Stahlberg wrote me later, when I was coming. He told them that he thought 1 would be along about 5 o’clock to catch the 5.30 train east. He told them that I had the papers, and I understood from Dr. Stablberg that they were going to talk with me and try to get me to agree not to take these papers East, and they would perhaps ride with me as far as St. Paul. That morning at 7 o’clock—three hours before Dr. Stahlberg left for Park Rapids—I started north to Ogema,40 miles away. I took with me three or four Army policemen. There was Capt. Driver, and three of the best police were with me, one of whom, John Rock, was a soldier who served during the Civil War. I got through safely with these papers. I called on Maj. Howard, and took the train east, and gave the papers to Commis- sioner Valentine in his office. There were 117 different affidavits, and I felt, in view of all that was involved, that it would be better. to adopt the plan I did. . Mr. Grorce. And whom do you think were trying to prevent this? Mr. Moorgneap. Why, I should say, from what Dr. Stahlberg said, that the Detroit interests were. Mr. Gzorce. What interests? Mr. Moorenxan. The Detroit interests. One or two of these men there, and one of the men is mentioned in these affidavits, Fred Sanders—he was one of them, and Dr. Winship. That was the story: told to me. Mr. Grorer. They were involved in the affidavits? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir; and I did not want to take any chances. Mr. Grorce. So, when you speak of interests, you mean the lumber interests; that is, the large lumber interests, the important banking. interests there on the reservation, and also these men who were deal- ing in Indian lands? ; Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir; I could see when I walked around that these men were hostile to me. I did not care to take any chances with them, because I knew they were a bad lot. A Mr. Burcu. This man, Fred Sanders, was connected with what was termed the Clover Park Land Co., or the Clover Land Co.? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. With the Clover Land Co.? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; something of that sort. Mr. Burcn. With large holdings on the reservation? 2078 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Moornnap. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, Mr. O’Brien suggested that I should take up the matter of the Nichols-Chisholm logging railroad, which, I understand, has not been brought up. _ The Cuarmman. The fact that there was such a road for the pur- pose of getting logs to the stream was mentioned, but J remember no details about it. Mr. Mooreneap, It seems to me that a great injustice has been done there, so far as I can judge. Mr. Gzorcz. To whom ? _ Mr. Mooreneap. To the Indians. The Nicholas-Chisholm Lum- ber Co., I understand, got a concession to run this logging railroad from a point about 15 miles north or northeast of Ponsford to a navigable stream. I went out there one morning with two or three men, who claimed to know about timber and spent a day there. This logging railroad begins at a sawmill near allotment No. 1, owned by Miss Lynch, the daughter of John Lynch, the allotment for which Lynch refused $22,000. The railroad made a cut through John Lynch’s allotment, as agreed, about 70 or 80 feet wide. I havea photo- graph of that, which I have sent for and hope to get it by to-morrow. It shows this narrow lane through these high pines through John Lynch’s daughter’s allotment. As soon as the railroad gets off of John Lynch’s land on the Indian lands they cut anywhere from 400 to 600 or 700 feet through the timber. Mr. Burcu. Do you mean from 400 to 600 or 700 feet wide? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir; and through the best of the timber, I believe. You can see the difference there very distinctly. There is a very narrow line cut through Lynch’s allotment, and then it becomes much wider. They have twisted that railroad around so as to go through the best pine timber for miles. Mr. Patterson, whose report is here submitted, was detailed from the Forest Service to go out there while Mr. Linnen and I were at work. He made a report of the timber conditions there. This report takes up in sections the various timber rights, and I think it would cover this matter I have referred to, of the Nichols-Chisholm logging road. It does not speak of it specifically, but it seems to me, if you will pardon the suggestion, that the matter ought to be looked into, because it appears that a great wrong was done. Mr. Groreg. Is it your intention to introduce this report? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Is this a copy of the report to you? Mr. Moorrneap. No, sir; this is the original report. This is a report to the Indian Office, but it is pertinent to this matter. Mr. O’Brien read the following report: Waite HartH Acency, Minn., September 24, 1909. Hon. E. B. LINNEN, United States Inspector, Department of Interior, White Earth, Minn. Dear Sir: In connection with pending litigation concerning the sale of tim- ber on the allotments of full bloods and minors on the White Earth Indian Reservation, in Minnesota, I submit my opinion of the timber conditions on certain parts of the reservation visited. Going north on the road from the Pine Point School, in section 33, township 141, range 37, to the headquarters camp of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co., in section 31, township 143, range 87, open prairie land was found for about 6 miles north of the school. I should judge that this prairie extended east and west about 2 miles from the road. Heavy timber began about 2 miles south of Bad Medicine Lake and extended north to the south end of township 142, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2079 range 37, where cuttings of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. stopped. This heavy timber consisted of mature Norway and white pine, full stocked with as many trees are able to exist in a mature forest. But very few blanks of 3 to 5 acres were seen. For 40 rods on each side of the road which runs along the west edge of township 142, range 37, I estimate, by ocular measure ment, that the timber will cut from 15,000 to 40,000 feet per acre, 70 to 90 per cent Norway, 10 to 30 per cent white pine. The trees average five to six logs and five to seven logs per 1,000 feet. The timber is remarkably free from defects usually found in mature timber. The Norway appears to be free from blemishes, externally, and from the stumps seen in township 142, range 37, the trees appear to run sound throughout. The white pine shows very little conk externally. Cut-over'lands show no discarded butts and the stumps are free from decay. A conservative value of this standing timber is $12 per 1,000 feet for white pine and $11 for Norway, and a large operator could afford to pay $15 and $13, respectively. Pine of this character is easily worth the latter figure on account of the small amount of such prime timber left in the Lake States. At the headquarters camp preparations are being made to receive a full crew of between 150 and 175 men. About 25 men are now repairing the camps and rolling stock, and the foreman informed me that this camp expected to log 18,000,000 feet this winter, and that a steam-logging road would be built to the north side of Bad Medicine Lake. This road will penetrate the heaviest timber. One other camp will be operated by the company, but the location was not given. In going from the headquarters camp to the terminal of the logging road, at the east end of Elbow Lake, the tote road runs through timber similar to that found in the vicinity of Bad Medicine Lake, but some forties run very high in white pine, probably as high as 70 per cent in some cases. Mr. Burcu. The tote road would be the carrying road. That is not the railroad right of way, but an ordinary road they would carry supplies over. Within one-half mile of Jugler Lake heavy timber within sight of the road gives way to young spruce, balsam, and birch, but on coming to Jugler Lake the view of the east shore observed the same heavy stands of pine as that dis- covered in the northeast corner of the township. Between Jugler and Elbow Lakes spruce and balsam is very thick and only a little scattering big timber can be seen from the road. On Elbow Lake the shore for some distance back is dark with pine timber. North of Elbow Lake the timber is scattering with jack pine and poplar ridges, and the last 3 miles of the road to the agency sawmill goes through old, cut-over land, now barren of all growth except poplar. This land appears to have been cut over about 10 years ago. From observations along the road it is inferred that the heavy standing pine timber in the southeast part of the reservation is in township 142 north, ranges 37 and 38 west. It is understood from officials of the agency that this part of the reservation has been largely allotted to full bloods and minors. By various methods title to this timber has passed to the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. and the Park Rapids Lumber Co., although the full bloods and minors have no au- thority to sell their timber or land. Under these circumstances the logical thing to do, frim the purchasers’ point of view, is to remove and manufacture this timber as soon as possible, before it can be estimated and appraised for a proper valuation. Pending the determination of the status of the full bloods, injunction proceed- ings should be instituted against the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co., the Park Rapids Lumber Co., and all lumber companies and persons interested, restrain- ing them from cutting or removing timber from the allotments of full bloods and minors on the entire reservation. The standing timber on the full-blood and minor allotments should be estimated by forties, by experienced and qualified cruisers of known reliability. After an estimate and valuation of the timber has been made it may be released, at the discretion of the Secretary of the In- terior, to the purchaser on payment of the difference between the final valuation and the first payment made to each Indian. : On full-blood and minor allotments which have been cut over estimates should be made from the stumps left on each allotment. The tops have been burned in most cases, and in some cases the tops have been piled so that they can not 2080 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. figure in obtaining an estimate. Extensive volume tables for white and Norway pine have beén made in similar timber in the vicinity of Cass Lake. Wth a few additional measurements to render these volume tables applicable to stump measurements, an accurate estimate of the timber formerly standing on these... cut-over allotments can be obtained. Mr. Burcu. What does he mean by that? Mr. Farr. That is by measuring the top and the butt, where the top remains in the position where it fell, and then figuring the dis- tance. The logs have been taken away. They use that table in fig- uring what the logs would turn out in board measure. The Cuairman. The top cut means the last cut, or the cut nearing the top? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And they assume that the distance from that butt to the top would be the length of the tree? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcs. I suppose that the circumference of the butt has a relation to the circumference of the top, and in that way they can estimate how long the stock was between. Mr. Farr. You see, the stump does not move, and the top could only be removed by the use of horses or some power, and they can measure from the butt to the top, where the last log was cut, and in that way they could get the actual distance. If it is on level ground, the tree will fall near the stump, and if it is not on level ground, they make an allowance for the sliding. Should the injunction against the companies be granted, the work of esti- mating should begin as soon after as possible. A corps of men should also be obtained to patrol the reservation to guard against trespass of all kinds on full bloods and minor lands. Very respectfully, _A. B. PATTERSON, Chief, Office of Federal Cooperation, Forest Service. Mr. Burcu. I observe, Mr. Moorehead, that this letter does not touch upon the question of this broad cutting along the right of way through this timber after leaving the Margaret Lynch allotment. Was it your understanding that they obtained a concession from the department, and I mean by “they” the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co.—do you understand that they obtained a concession from the- Indian Bureau or some other bureau of the Interior Department, giving them the timber on the right of way? Mr. Moorrneap. I saw the statement in Maj. Howard’s office at White Earth showing the various allotments along that railroad from Elbow Lake back to headquarters camp, and, if I remember correctly, it was stated opposite the name of these allottees the vari- ous amounts paid these Indians. I can not recall the amounts. Some of the amounts were small, and it seemed to me that an injustice had been done when I could see that they cut back so far in this timber. Some of these trees would run four or five logs and some of them three big logs. Mr. Grorcr. Do you remember any of these compensating figures? Mr. Moorengap. I do not remember the amounts. Mr. Groree. Do you remember distinctly that some of the amounts pee the allottees seemed to be entirely inadequate for the timber cut? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2081 The Cuatrman. Do you remember the relative amount paid Miss Lynch for cutting the narrow strip through her allotment as com- pared with the amounts paid for cutting the wider strips through the Indian allotments? Mr. Mooreurap. I do not remember the relative amounts, but they appeared to be small. Mr. Georce. Whose statement was it, or whose order was it, that you saw in the office of Maj. Howard? Mr. Mooreneap. I think it was signed by the Indian Office—it was by some one in the Indian Office. Mr. Gzorcr. Here in Washington? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; I think it was a grant or permission to the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. to put the road through; and these amounts were paid to these different people. Mr. Gzorce. Did you ever make any inquiry about that order to see whether there was anything here on file, or a copy of that order, or anything that would relate to that order? Mr. Moorryeap. No, sir; I told Mr. Linnen about it and how I was concerned. ~I went there in March or April and Mr. Linnen came about the 1st of July. I think I remember that Mr. Linnen said that that would be taken up in a general discussion of the timber and would be worked out when he took it up. I told him that he ought to look into that. Mr. Gzorcr. Will you please make a memorandum of that, Mr. Meritt, and if you can find any such order report the matter to the committee. If you do find it, please bring it with you; or if you can not find any such order, will you report to the committee ? Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Will you do that for the afternoon session ? Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir; I will telephone for it now. Mr. Georcr. Did you get any information or any estimate as to the value of this timber on these allottees’ lands through which the rail- road cut other than the Margaret Lynch allotment, for which no adequate compensation was paid? Mr. Moorzunap. That is rather difficult for me to answer. I have stated that there were various amounts, and of course they ranged all the way from a few hundred dollars to $12,000 or $15,000. I think Mr. Linnen would know more about that than I do. Mr. Grorcz. You never got any adequate notion of it from any official or other sources? ; : Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir. I looked over the statement in which a great many tracts were entered up, showing so many thousand feet of pine. Of course, I could not identify the various allotments from: memory as to the amount of feet cut. I know that some of them would run from three to four or five hundred thousand feet, and some of them over half a million feet. . Mr. Burcu. Mr. Moorehead, there is a statute of the United States which grants a right of way 200 feet in width across public lands of the United States in certain States, of which this is one, for the pur- pose of right of way, together with the right to take timber, stone, earth, or other material for the construction of a railroad. This. statute provides for a concession or permit from the Secretary of the Interior of such land and material upon the filing of the line of defi-. 2082 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. nite construction. Now, what I want to get at is this, and place here in the record, whether the concession that you say you saw there was such a permit as that which would enable the Nichols-Chisholm Lum- ber Co. to take—that is, which would purport to allow them to _take—for the construction of their railroad 200 feet wide over this land upon the theory that it was Government land, and the timber, earth, etc., for the construction of the railroad, and that they then got all this greater width under pretense of right of way without recompense to the Government or to the Indians, or whether it was a sheer cutting from land on which they had purchased the timber, or whether it was a forcible cutting without obtaining any deeds from the Indians. You see, the importance of this depends upon the exact nature of the transactions. What did you understand with respect to these matters? Mr. Linnen, I think, would have known of this statute I am speaking of. Mr. Moorrurap. Can I answer that in my own way? Mr. Burcu. Yes, indeed. Mr. Mooreneap. First, the Indians came to me and said this log. ging road ran through John Lynch’s land narrowly and then widened out on ours. Second, when I got there and saw John Lynch’s nar- row land, which I don’t think 1s 200 feet wide, I saw it widened out, not 200 feet, but anywhere from 400 to 600 or more, according to my best knowledge and belief. It widened out; there is no ques- tion about it. Whether they actually bought the right to use that from the Indians or took the right, I can not tell of my own knowl- edge. I saw it had been done. The Cuairman. In every instance where you say John Lynch’s land you mean his daughter, Margaret Lynch ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then you went up to the agency to investigate? Mr. MoorreHeap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What did you find there? Mr. Moorryerap. I saw that statement—that statement of the amounts paid these people—but having had so much to do I can not recall the language or the signature. Mr. Burcu. You don’t know whether it was in the form of allow- ance for damages? Mr. Moorennap. I think it was—certainly an allowance—these amounts to the various Indians. Whether damages or purchases, I can not tell. Mr. Burcu. Was it confirmed by the Indian agent? Mr. Moorengap. I don’t know for cértain. It must have been. Mr. Burcu. Approved by Indian Agent Michelet? Mr. Mooreneap. I think so; I can not say positively. Mr. Gzorcr. I misunderstood. It was in Michelet’s time and not in Maj. Howard’s. Mr. Mooreneap. They are in Maj. Howard’s time, but this paper was before that. Mr. Grorcz. It was simply left in the file? Mr. Moorenxap. Yes, sir; rather, he got it out. Mr. Gzorcz. From Maj. Michelet’s time? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir; Howard got it out and showed it to me to prove that amount had been paid, and I asked Howard how it was that so little was paid these people when there were trees eeeeer WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2083 on these cuttings worth several hundred dollars—how they got so little, that it seemed unjust, and the result was that Patterson came up there and went over the whole situation on White River and made that report about the stumps, about what was cut, and Linnen wanted that injunction got out; whether they got it out I can not tell. The Cuairman. Judge Burch, before leaving that point, do you understand that the statute you refer to applies to a logging road? A logging road is not a railroad. Mr. Burcu. It just depends. The statute is silent on this sub- ject. Even a logging railroad is required to do some commercial business. Mr. Georce. In the sense of a public highway? ~ Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir; carrying mail either way once a day, and to do certain things required by law. In such a case it is held to be a public highway and amenable to this law. Upon that, how- ever, we can probably meet. Mr. Moorgpueap. It was a’narrow-gauge railroad. I saw the trains pass. I never saw a caboose or passenger coach, although they may have had them. They were flat cars with logs on, and an old- fashioned narrow-gauge engine pulling the train. Mr. Burcu. I am familiar with such matters. Sometimes they do hitch a caboose on once a day. That is what the State law requires. However, the point I want to get at is this: These lands belong to the United States, which holds them, at least, in fee simple, expecting some time to deliver them to the Indians in accordance with their allotment. That is the theory upon which all our statutes are planted; they are Government lands. Under these circumstances there might be a concession of 200 feet wide granted by the Secre- tary of ihe Interior, even though they had been allotted to Indians, the title being in fee in the Government, if they had complied with the law in filing their line of definite construction with the Secretary of the Interior. But not beyond that; that is, presumably not beyond that; and only would that timber be available for use in constructing the railroad. The timber would not be given them; only the timber for the purpose of making ties, bridge timber, depots—something of that kind. In other words, it wouldn’t give them the timber out- right, but such timber as they used in the actual construction of the railroad. But if it was on the land of Indians who had been emanci- pated at that time by the Clapp amendment—adult Indians of mixed blood—then the statute of Minnesota should have been fol- lowed and regular condemnation proceedings made, or agreements made with the parties who owned the land in lieu thereof. Now, none of these elements seem to have been present in this case, and there- fore I think it is a proper subject for us—at any rate, for the de- artment of justice of the Interior—to examine into, most assuredly. Mr. Farr thinks that unquestionably on Indian reservations they have always been required to pay for all timber cut, but the question of whether they properly scaled or whether they fraudulently scaled in making this allowance is still open. Se The Cuamman. It might be well to let Mr. Meritt give us some information as to the department’s attitude on that. ; Mr. Merrrr. I can explain to you the method of acquiring rights of way crossing lands by railroad companies. The act of March 2, 2084 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 1899, I believe, as found in Statutes of Large, page 990, gives the Sec. retary of the Interior authority to grant rights of way across Indian lands to railroad companies, provided they comply with the regula- tions prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. These regulations have been formulated, and a great many rights of way throughout the country have been granted to railroad companies on Indian lands. The method of acquiring these rights of way is about as tol- lows: The railroad company is required to make application to the Secretary of the Interior to survey this rights of way across Indian lands before the company is permitted to enter on the Indian lands. That permission is usually granted. After the survey has been made they are required to file with the superintendent a map show- ing the location of the proposed right of way. That data is sub- mitted by the superintendent to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and he transmits it to the Secretary of the Interior with his recom- mendation. After the map showing the right of way is approved the superintendent is instructed to assess the damages by reason of the construction of the railroad across the lands. The superintendent represents the Indian and the Government in the matter, and the railroad company appoints a representative. They agree on dam- ages, and a schedule is made of the damages to each Indian allot- ment. The Indian is usually requested to either approve or disap- prove damages that may be awarded to him, and he signs in a column on this schedule of damages his name, and if he can not write he signs by putting a mark. That subsequently is submitted to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and he transmits it to the Secretary of the Interior with his recommendations. In the event that the secretary and the representative of the railway company can not agree as to damages a third party is selected, and an agreement is reached that way. Now, that is the custom as to regular railroad rights of way. As for logging roads, we have no special law appli- cable. The logging railroads can either purchase a right of way under what is known as the noncompetent act, the act of March 1, 1907, or it can get a permit from the Secretary of the Interior to cross Indian lands by paying the required damages. The regular railroad act of March 2, 1899, prescribes the width of the right of way, and they are required eal not only for the damages of the land but for the timber that is taken off the right of way. Mr. Burcu. What is the width of that right of way? Mr. Merirr. One hundred feet, except in cuts and fills, where they need larger widths. They can get an additional width of right of way on proper showing. : Mr. Burcu. Well, then, according to that, if John Michelet had agreed with whoever the logging company was represented by, and that had been sent to the commissioner and by him to the Secretary and approved, in the absence of proof of fraud, fraudulent action upon the part of the representative of the Government—that is, the Indian superintendent—that would be final, as you understand it, against the Indians; that is, the finding of the Secretary upon the question of fact? Mr. Merirr. I so understand it. : a CuHairMANn. Suppose the information before the Secretary is alse ? Mr. Burcu. That is it. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2085 Mr. Granam. Suppose it showed a right of way of 100 feet through eo; land, whereas, in fact, the logging railroad cut the timber off 600 feet, the Secretary would only pass on the case before him as shown by his files, whereas the actual case was a very different one and would seem to entitle the ward to some sort of action against his guardian. Mr. Merirr. Absolutely. Mr. Burcu. It certainly would entitle the Government to a right of action for the ward, the usual action in the name of the Govern- ment. Of course, it would be for the benefit of the ward. Mr. Mrwitr. There is no question about that. Mr. Burcu. I think there would be no question about it. There is no statute of limitations in such cases; that is, personal damage. There is no statute of limitation that runs against the Government, so that is a very proper subject of inquiry, especially as to this enor- mous amount. It was several hundred feet wide for several miles? Mr. Mooreneap. I judge so. I walked about 24 miles down the railroad, and it looked that way; 400 or 600; I did not step it, but l can judge distances, and I judge it was 400 to 600 feet. Mr. Grauam. I understood you to say that in the location of the road it seemed to meander about in such a way as to follow the best timber? Mr. Moorrurap. That was my impressicn. Mr. Granam. Would you elaborate on that point a little more, as to whether in your opinion the lay of the land made that necessary ? Mr. Mooreueap. It doubtless did in some places, Mr. Chairman, but my opinion was it did not in all. A forestry man would be more competent to judge, but I judge they were not only following the topography of the land best suited, but they were turning that road to take in good pieces of timber; it looked that way to me. Mr. Gzorce. You made the statement that the regulations per- mitted an additional width in cases of cuts and fills. Did you notice any large cuts and fills that would warrant a 600-foot strip? Mr. Moorzngap. No, sir; there is one or two little bridges or culverts or-fills along the side of the lake, but nothing extensive. I don’t think any of them were very long. I don’t remember all the sides in 24 miles, but there were a few bridges there—log bridges— but nothing extensive that I saw. Mr. Grauam. Would not the sinuosity of the road as you saw it suggest the possibility of getting a greater amount of longitude? Mr. Mooreneap. It might have been that: yes, sir. The Cuairman. But wouldn’t it suggest that to your mind? Mr. Mooreneap. It seemed to me they were getting all they could out of it. Of course it may have been mixed-blood land. I don't know who owned it. . Mr. Grorcr. Was anything told you or stated to you definitely respecting why the Margaret Lynch right of way was narrow? Mr. Mooreneap. The people joked about it. They said Mr. Lynch being a strenuous Irishman was on hand to see that they cut only 70 or 80 feet through his allotment. Mr. Gzorcz. I thought you said 200 feet? Mr. Moorenxap. No, sir; the others said 200 feet. I guessed it 70 or 80. You see the wall of pine in front of you on this narrow 2086 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. land? That is the Margaret Lynch allotment. You walk through that and it widens out, and there is no narrow land. At 12.40 p. m. the committee took a recess until 130 p. m. same day. AFTER RECESS. Mr. Burcu. Now. Mr. Moorehead, take up the next topic that you have. : j Mr. Mooreueap. Mr. Chairman, the next roe was some details on the health situation. I found in July or August, 1909, 32 per cent of the school children assembled in the White Earth boarding house suffered from trachoma. This was under the examination of Dr. Richards, the agency physician. It seems they took out these children and sent them to their homes when they had that disease. We reported on that at length, and you had our reports. Inthe year. 1910, and again in 1911, I wrote to the Indian Office at Washington stating that we had heard that trachoma was spreading and begged authority to take action and stamp it out or do something. No- vember 14, 1911, I received this lettter from Maj. Howard, signed by John R. Howard, superintendent, herewith submitted. He incloses a letter from Dr. Cook, agency physician at Pine Point, in which a table is presented of 82 school children. Of these 82 school children all the children in school at Pine Point, 80 have trachoma, leaving but 2 out of 82 that are well. Of those, 32 are in the third stage, which means, of course, blindness. It means you can not save them, so Dr. Cook informed me. Dr. Cook is the agency physician; but I asked our school agent, and he said the third stage is hope- less. The year before that it was 32 per cent; now it is 97 per cent. As to these others, Mr. Chairman, Mr. O’Brien did not know whether they were pertinent—the remaining three papers here—but asked me to speak to you. The first is the statement of the chief of the Chippewas, May-zhuck-ke-ge-shig, in which he gives his opinion as to what is the mattter with his people; but being a letter of trans- lation, it is not good English. The Cuarrman. It will not do any harm to include it in the record. May-zhuck-e-ke-ge-shig, chief, having been asked if drinking was on the increase and as to whether conditions on the reservation are improving or not, makes the following statement: After we arrived here on the reservation, for about 10 years or maybe more, we never heard of anybody being drunk. But ever since the young men could get some whisky, once in a great while we would hear that this or that man was drunk. If the Government found out this was getting too bad the Government officers used to be around, traveling around the reservation, and if they were sure the people were doing any such thing they would take the people from off the reservation to where they could handle them. Sometimes they would take from 20 to 30 off (to court). I have been there twice, where they were trying people for liquor (drinking, etc.). Of course, I did not go just for pleasure, but I had to go (subpoenaed) to give my testimony. I saved two men from being convicted for introducing liquor on the reservation, and I told the big judge down at St. Paul that he was teaching the boys bad habits, paying their fare back. They used to convict each other. At St. Paul they let them off— paid them off and let them go home. What a doing was this. I told the judge he ought to turn them off. It is only a four-days’ journey here (St. Paul) to Crow Wing. That is what it used to take us when we went on the warpath, and two days from Crow Wing to White Earth. ‘“ You should turn them loose and let them walk up there. If they get hungry they can stop in the country -and work. There are lots of white people in the country. They (the Indians) WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2087 can stop and work whenever they get hungry. They can make the journey in six days, even if they are lazy and go slow. This is the only way to stop the liquor business. That is the way with the Indians—if the Indians receive their pay they run around town, looking for a bottle, to have something to drink going home. That is the only way to stop it—to turn them out down there and make them walk back. I do not hate the young men, but I think this way is the way to stop it. It might give them a little lesson—stop them from look- ing for liquor so badly.” Ever since the Indians commenced to use liquor work has gone right back. My friend, you do not know how sorry I feel about this sometimes. Of course, the Government employs me to kind of look after the young men. Why I feel sorry about this is the Indians are drunk and then we hear that some one is run over by the train. That is why I hate for the young men to use liquor. I do not hate liquor; I would not refuse liquor; but the young men use it more than the’old men. I believe that if this (liquor selling) could be stopped for four or five years you would hear of something being done on this reser- vation. I know just how my Indians are and know there would be some work to show if the liquor was stopped for five years at least. When I was down there (Washington) last winter they sent for me five different times to tell just how things were going on on this place. Of course, I could have tried to hide it, but I just told them there was no work about here—no work up here now. All of the old people—the leading men—tell the young men not to use so much liquor. This is what we talk about, we oid fel- lows. If anyone visits us we talk about this and tell them not to do it. And this is why it makes an Indian lazy; also it makes him sell his land. It is not only the Indians who get the worst of it. The mixed bloods—they do not want to work. Some, of course, do. Some of the Indians, too, do a little work. I do not mean to condemn everybody. There may be one here and one there who does some work. Of course, I do not expect to live much longer, but if this liquor is stopped for five years there will be some work done, and I may live up to that time. I have heard from all around, and everybody is kept from work just by liquor. It is very well known that liquor is a bad thing, but we are after it. We drink it, and we are happy; but we know how foolish it is. But that is the way the Indians are. That is all I have to say. It is no false statement. ‘ Do you not think that this authority for the Indians to sell their lands had a very bad effect up here? Of course, for some of them it has had a very bad effect. Some people who sell their lands have bought things they needed and live very well, but some who could not sell have had to hunt around to make a living for their children. Four years ago there was a very deep snow, and I reported down there that we could not make a living, we old men could not work in the lumber camps. The answer I got was “to go to the Old People’s Home, where they take care of old folks—you can sell half of your land.” My friend, do you believe I would go to the place where old women are taken care of? I would not put my foot in there where the old women are taken care of. Then, I just kept quiet and lived through the winter somehow. I respect my people, and if I sold half of my land they would all make remarks, “ Here, that man sold half of his qnar- ter,” and they all would be trying to sell. That little chipmunk we had for an agent (Michelet) asked me twice to go up there where they take care of old women. He was badly mistaken; I would not go up there where they take care of the old women. A Since the Indians sold their lands, has not there been less work and more liquor drinking than before? That is very true. They have lost more than what they had. Look around on the land, but you will see no improvements. Of course, what forced the Indians to sell their land was because they were very poor, and they sold for much less than the land was worth; their poverty forced them to do it. And that is how they were cheated. I earned my 160 acres because I was able to work for it. The mixed bloods were good workers, and lots of them got their 160 acres, and some of the full bloods, who were good workers, got their 160 acres long ago. MAY-ZHUCK-KE-GE-SHI¢ (his thumb mark). Mr. Moorsueap. There was one matter I spoke to Mr. O’Brien about and he told me to mention. In speaking of lack of protection to Indians, I wish to state that a number of Indians made affidavit 2088 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. that they were compelled to sign papers in houses at night, or that papers were forcibly taken away from them—I mean patents or deeds. Mr. Grorer. At their allotments? Mr. Moorrnzap. Yes, sir. A specific instance was Mrs. John Rock, whose affidavit is in your files. She made a long affidavit stating that two Detroit men woke her up at midnight when her husband was on duty as policeman and stayed there until morning, until she signed the paper to get rid of them. Another instance was that of a cripple woman at Cloquet, or near Cloquet. She was visited by a man who came to see here husband and took two patent papers, and she caught hold of him, but he went off with these; and there are other such cases; and it emphasized the fact, it seemed to me, that these people did not get good protection. I believe that was all, Mr. Chairman, except No. 15, which Mr. O’Brien did not know whether you would want. It is the correspondence between the Catholic missionaries with Com- missioner Valentine—copies of it as to the Mille Lac situation, and another letter, and the failure of Darwin Hall to do anything for them. The Cuairman. Speaking in a superficial way, if it came to the knowledge of the bureau and affected the standing of Mr. Hall, who was then connected with the White Earth and with the Minnesota Indians, I do not see why it would not be relevant. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Hall’s title at that time, I think, was removal commissioner. The Cuatrman. Mr. Moorehead, this is a correspondence between two Catholic priests, Father Ketchem and Father Aloysius, and also a letter to Commissioner Valentine making these complaints to the Indian Office. If this correspondence goes in, we ought to have the original and Mr. Valentine’s response, if he made any. The letter addressed to him on August 4, 1910, I think at this time ought not to goin. Mr. Meritt can furnish the originals and the replies by the commissioner. Mr. O’Brien. At this point, would it not be best to request Mr. Meritt to make a search for these papers. I would also like to re- quest that Mr. Meritt furnish the committee with a statement of the expenditures of the Interior Department by way of compensation and expenses to Mr. Darwin S. Hall during the time he was employed in connection with the affairs of the Chippewa Indians. Mr. Grorer. As removal commissioner ? Mr. O’Brinn. Yes, sir: and also as Indian commissioner, and in what other capacity he was employed the same sort of an explanation. The Coarrman. Showing the nature of the employment and the compensation # Mr. O’Brien. Yes, sir. Then while we are making these requests of Mr. Meritt, I would also like to request that he secure, if he can a re- port made by John Michelet, I think, to the Secretary of the Interior, dated about July 20, 1906, in which Michelet stated that a few of the spendthrifts were spending the money, but if any case was found where a full blood or minor had been deprived of his allotment he would call upon the district attorney to prosecute him. I think this report was made by telegram, if I am not mistaken. The Cuarrmay. Is there anything further with Mr. Moorehead ? Mr. Burcu. Have you finished everything you desire to say ? Mr. Moorennap. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2089 Mr. Grorcz. There are some papers Mr. Meritt was looking for in connection with the testimony. Mr. MooreHeap. Yes, sir. Mr. Merirr. We have here a schedule of damages of the right of way of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. The damages amount to $4,090.40. This schedule has been approved by the Secretary of the Interior on the recommendation of the superintendent of the reser- vation, Mr. Michelet. Mr. Mooreurap. This is the paper I saw there, to the best of my knowledge and belief. The Cuairman. The witness is shown a paper from the Indian Office headed “Schedule of award of damages for right of way of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co.’s temporary logging railroad across the allotted tribal lands of the Indians of the White Earth Indian Reservation.” The table gives 21 specific tracts of land, most of the tracts being 40-acre tracts, some of them lots. The description of the land is given in each case and the name of the owner of the land. Where the Indian is dead the names of his heirs are given, and where a guardian was appointed the name of the guardian. The number of acres taken is given, the price per acre in each case being fixed at $10. In another column the damages for right of way is given, and in another one all other damages, followed in another column by the total damages. In the next column is given the signature of the allottee or such person as is authorized to sign for him, with his mark and witnesses to the mark. In the next column is the signa- ture of the representative of the company, being in every case J. A. Nichols, president, and in the final column, under the head of “ Re- marks,” a description of the timber or wood on the land taken. At the bottom of the sheet is a certificate signed by Simon Michelet, superintendent and special disbursing agent, in which certificate he says: That I, representing the Indians of the United States, and that J. A. Nichols, representative of the company, have agreed that the valuation of damages set opposite the respective legal subdivisions described therein, are adequate and just and when paid will be full compensation for the damage done thereto, and that each of the allottees has consented to the sum set opposite their re- spective names for the damage done such land so taken by said company as shown by said schedule, and that each of the allottees understood and were fully satisfied with the appraisement. The certificate, among other things, contains a statement that pine was valued at $10 per thousand feet; spruce, at $5 per thousand feet ; wood, at $2.50 per cord; land, at $10 per acre. Let me ask you, Mr. Farr, as a witness before the committee heretofore under oath, if wood at $2.50 per cord refers to various species of hardwood? Mr. Farr. I should judge all other species except the pine. The Cuamman. And. $2.50 per cord would be equivalent to what price per 1,000 feet? Mr. Farr. Approximately $5. : The Cuarman. Is there any inference to be drawn from the esti- mate per cord that that species of wood was not good for lumber purposes ? Muck r. Farr. That would be the inference, although it might be good for lumber and be classified as cord wood. The Cuarrman. Resuming, Mr. Reporter, as to the schedule. At the bottom of it there is another certificate by the interpreter, J. E. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 287 2090 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Perrault, in which he states, on honor, that he has fully explained to the Indians on the above schedule, who are unable to understand English, the purport of the same, and that he is satisfied they under- stood the nature of this schedule, and that they agreed to the ap- praisement set opposite their names, and below that certificate are these words: Department of the Interior, Washington, D. C.. January 24, 1908, approved, signed, Jesse EH. Wilson, Assistant Secretary. Initialed, C. F. L. Mr. Meritt, these initials mean C. F. Larrabee? Mr. Menrirtv. Yes, sir. . The Cuarrman. Then Assistant Indian Commissioner ? Mr. Merirt. Yes, sir. The CuHarrman. Now, Mr. Morehead, will you please examine that schedule and put in the record such comments about it as you desire ? Mr. Mooreneap. Mr. Chairman, as there is no blue print here, it is a little difficult for me to give exact information on this, and further, if I had a blue print I could not identify. these allotments. I told this morning what I saw there about the wide cutting, and I heard the people who went with me on that inspection te!l that the Indians were not paid enough, in their opinion. Now, if you regard this schedule you will observe that Nos. 2 and 3 are owned by Louise Lynch and Margaret Lynch. The Cuairman. Owned by Margaret Lynch and signed for by Louise, Margaret being an infant of tender years? Mr. MoorenHeap. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcs. That is No. 3? Mr. Moorreneap. Nos. 2 and 3, and those total 2.26 acres, and the amount paid for the two $496. Now, looking at these allotments, as I did, where the narrow land is cut as I described, that, of course, 1s apparent, walking through that land along the railroad -for, I should say, a third of a mile, perhaps, more or less. Then you come to this land that is cut way back on each side, more so than the cut- ting on the Lynch allotments, several times as much, and my com- parison would be that, assuming that the pine is as good on these others as it was here, and the stumps, to my best knowledge and belief, are still there, these amounts paid should have been much more. It looked to me as if justice hadn’t been done, but justice may have been done. The Cuatrman. Can you tell from the schedule before you what allotments were cut so wide out from the tract and whether they were near the Lynch allotment? Mr. Mooreugap. The schedule, on its face, Mr. Chairman, would seem to be accurate, but in walking across this land I did not ob- serve such uniformity as is here indicated. It would look to me as though 4 or 5 acres, or 3 acres, or, in one or two cases, perhaps, 7 acres, had been cut, and here it is entered here from 90 acres to 1.5 or 1.18, etc. The Cuarrman. Could you tell at what angle a road crossed these allotments, and might it not be that it would go over one of them almost diagonally, from corner to corner, and cut off just a very small corner of the next allotment ? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2091. Mr. O’Brien. If Mr. Meritt would furnish us with a blue print showing the map of the road, it would not be difficult to determine that question. The Cyairman. Mr. Meritt, let me ask you, had your files con- tained a blue print of this right of way? Mr. Menrrrr. If this right of way had been granted under the act of March 2, 1899, the regular railroad right-of-way law, there cer- tainly would be a blue print, but this right of way was granted un- der the regulations of the department of January 25, 1906. I have a copy of these regulations here. I am not sure that the blue print was filed in that case, but I will be glad to look up the files. The Cuairman. Can you ascertain by telephone? Mr. Merirrt. Yes, sir; I will do so. Mr. Mooreneap. Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion? If we could get hold of Mr. Patterson I think we could find out intelli- gently about this. The Cuarrman. He is in the service now? Mr. Mooreveap. Yes, sir. Mr. Farr. He is located at some distant point. Mr. Grorce. Has that timber on either side of this right of way been cut? Mr. Farr. A large portion of it was cut two year ago. Mr. Gzorcg. So the traces of the original cutting could have been hidden ? Mr. Farr. Not necessarily. The Cuarrman. The track has been removed, has it not—the rail- road track has been removed from that particular place? Mr. Farr. Not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. I do not think so. The Cuamman. I think we have followed the incident as far as it is of value. Is there anything further with Mr. Moorehead ¢ »Mr. Burcu. I would like to ask a few questions as I go along now. J call your particular attention to the case of Darwin Hall. What was it Darwin Hall said to you when you requested his assistance in your investigation? Can you give us his language? If not, give the substance of it. Mr. Mooreneap. Mr. Chairman, as near as I can recollect, when I reached the Hiawahi Hotel in July, of 1909, Darwin Hall was there as Chippewa commissioner. I introduced myself to Mr. Hall and asked him to speak with me. He stepped out in the road or street in front of the hotel, and I told him something regarding our plans, that we were there to get justice for these Chippewas and that we would probably have a hard fight, and that he holding a high position could help us, and I asked him to help us, and he said he wouldn’t. help me, said he was not in sympathy with this investigation. I think, if I am not mistaken, we both got a little angry, for I spoke to him sharply, or he did to me; I think he said he thought that we were stirring up trouble there, or words to that effect, and that he was to move the Mille Lac Indians, and that he would not help me at all in this investigation. Then he went up the street to the office of the Tomahawk, and I think found Clement Beaulieu or Gus Beaulieu. I saw him at White Earth frequently and several times go to the Tomahawk office, and he also came in our office several times when we were taking evidence. 2092 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Did he purport to be engaged in his duties then as removal commissioner? Did you understand he was then Chippewa commissioner or removal commissioner ? Mr. Moorrneap. I think he must have been Mille Lac removal or Chippewa commissioner, but they called him Commissioner Hall— Hon. Commissioner Hall. Mr. Burcu. During the time you was there did you see him at any time doing anything that seemed to be engaged with the removal of the Mille Lac Indians? Mr. Moorrugap. No, sir. He was in the lobby of the hotel most of the time I saw him, and when we were at work he sat there in the office and listened to the evidence several times. Mr. Burron. Did you learn how long a time he was engaged in removing these Indians, or purporting to, or attempting to? Mr. Mooreneap. I wrote to the Indian Office and asked them when they appointed Darwin Hall; then I found out when he was removed, and that meant something more than 22 months, if I remember cor- rectly—May 1, 1909, I think—a few days before or after May 1, 1909. Mr. Buren. Did you learn how many Indians he actually re- moved ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. The Indian Office and Maj. Howard both reported; I think one said 50 Indians and the other said 51. Mr. Burcu. Out of a possible how many that he was to remove? Mr. Mooreneap. I don’t know the exact number, but we had made an estimate that he would be seven years and two months removing the Indians at the rate he was moving them, so it must have been between 300 and 400. The Cuarrman. Do you mean individuals or families when you say 50 or 51? r. Burcu. That was counting, then, men, women, and children? Mr. Moorugsp. I suppose so. Mr. Burcu. How long a distance was it from White River to where they were being removed to Mille Lac, approximately ? Mr. MoorenEap. Somewhere between one hundred and two hun- dred miles, I should say. Mr. Burcu. By railroad? ‘Mr. Mooreueap. I should say across country that distance, but XT don’t know exactly. If we had a map, I could tell. Mr. Burcu. Perhaps that is not of sufficient importance for me 2 solo it up. You have not, of course, seen him at any time since at ? Mr. Moorrnnap. Not since I was at White Earth. Mr. Burcu. You understand afterwards he was removed from White Earth? Mr. Mooreneap. I heard from the Indian Office, I think, in Jan- uary, that they removed him. Mr. Burcu. His compensation was how much? Mr. Moorgueap. I heard that he received $10 a day salary and maintenance, and I heard he had a stenographer or interpreter and, possibly, a team. I am not sure as to the team. Mr. Burcu. Did you have any talk with Commissioner Valentine about him? Mr. Moorrurap. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2093 Mr. Burcu. What was said about that? Mr. Mooreueap. I told Commissioner Valentine that the people up there said that Mr. Hall had been for many years in office and had been of little consequence to the people. I heard very little in his favor except from the Beaulieu and kindred interests, and then later, a year or two later, when he had not removed him, I wrote letters to Mr. Valentine, perhaps a little sharper than I should have written, begging him to discharge Hall; that I believed Hall was against our investigation and not a man I would recommend to be in the service. I believed he represented the interests that had been against the In- dians. I have no letter to that effect, but that was my belief from what I heard and from what I saw up there. Mr. Burcu. Do you know whether he recéived pay for Sundays or only just week days? Mr. Mooreneap. I don’t know how he was paid. Mr. Burcu. What sympathy did he evince? What did he say and in what way did he evince sympathy with the persons you were in- vestigating? What did he say to evince sympathy? Mr. Mooreneap. I don’t know that he said more than I quoted. I could not remember all the words at this time, but he was against the investigation, as near as I can recall. He spoke rather bluntly or sharply to me, conveying the idea that I was gratuitously mixing in something that didn’t concern me. That would be my impression of his general tone. The conversation was not lengthy and we soon parted and were not friendly after that. Mr. Burcu. I want to call your attention to Dr. Richardson. What was there about him? Did you understand he had been attorney and was seeking a reelection or a new contract? Mr. Moorrweap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was he present himself? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who seemed to be acting in his capacity at that time, in assisting him ? Mr. Mooreneap. Gus Beaulieu, Ben Fairbanks, of course the Toma- hawk, and, I believe, a little paper over in Detroit. Mr. Burcu. The Quiver ? Mr. Mooreneap. I think that was it, and John Leasy, and Rev. Clement Beaulieu, and John Carr. : : ; Mr. Burca. They were all working in the interest of having him selected anew as attorney ? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And he was, so far as that vote was declared at that time? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you understand afterwards that Secretary Bal- linger or Mr. Valentine refused to confirm him? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who was it? : Mr. Mooreseap. I understood that Mr. Valentine, as commis- sioner, asked Mr. Ballinger not to confirm his election. . Mr. Burcu. Something has been said during the course of this hearing about your procuring the attendance of Indian witnesses at Pine Point by promising them or furnishing them rations. What did you say with regard to that? 2094 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Moorrueap. That is hardly putting it fairly to us. We fed the poor Indians, not as pay, because they would come a distance and have no rations of their own. Some of them had no teams, and we drove them in. The only people we fed were the old Indians, such as Day-Dodge, the medicine man of the wonderful memory, and six or seven others, and the wife of the chief, and others. We paid them a little for testifying, as they sat there all day. Mr. Burcu. Your position, then, is that it was more convenient for you to have them come to Pine Point and other central places than for you to go to their several homes? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. With your retinue? Mr. Moorzneap. Yes, sir; they were so scattered. Mr. Burcu. Less expensive? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And you brought them in there without pay ? Mr. MoorrHeEap. Yes, sir; except Mr. Burcu. I mean, except the interpreters? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. They came without pay? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burron. And did you have food, which they were lacking, dispensed to them ? Mr. Moorueap. Yes, sir; a little rice and a little flour. Mr. Burcu. For how long a time were they there? Mr. Moorrueap. Only two or three days. I believe in one or two cases three or four days. Mr. Burcu. Each person ? Mr. Moorsueap. Yes, sir. Most of them we would get rid of, get through to-day and send them away to-morrow. Mr. Burcu. And you had teams bringing them in and taking them away and furnished them rations? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who issued these rations for you—Maj. Howard? Mr. Moorzunap. Yes, sir. I gave orders or Mr. Linnen gave orders to Agent Howard to order Nicodemus Herr and Robert Henry to issue the rations to these poor people. They were distributed out of the Pine Point warehouse in small lots. Mr. Burcu. Then it was not a general boarding of a large number of people, but simply feeding them while they were there? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; of which we had sometimes 50 people on hand overnight, but not for days. The Cuarrman. State all you care to set forth about the council which you said you attended and received presents from some of the ‘Indians. Mr. Moorrveap. If you care to have that I would make a state- ment regarding that. Mr. Chairman, the Indians gave, I believe, twice, possibly three times, what they call’a squaw dance, a harmless dance, in which the women were more completely clothed than in many of the dances I have seen in the East, and we attended those dances, and we stopped the Indians at midnight or before. They took Inspector Linnen, Mr. Allen, and myself into the tribe by cour- tesy, and then as they danced around they gave favors to us just as we do in a modern german. We gave back to those people, I should WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2095 say, twice the value of the presents we received. I understand that Rev. Mr. Johnson stated that we received valuable presents and gave trinkets. All the beadwork I received, being modern, showing the Canadian-French influence, is of no real value, but I gave those Indians and so did Inspector Linnen—we handed these men and women $5 and $10 bills, and where we received strings of beads we gave them hunting knives to the men and to the women big stick- pins and hatpins. We spent considerable money. The Cuarrman. As to the morality of the Indians in which you call the squaw dance, what have you to say? Mr. Mooreueap. The Indians stand in a circle and they move to the left close against each other, not holding each other as in our eastern dances, and they move about slowly with this peculiar shufile .. step—not singing. There are six or seven players in the center with a big drum, on which they keep pounding time. That is all there is to it. The Cuarrman. Can you give us the tune to which they dance? a Mooreneap. Their favorite dance is this. [Witness whistles cune. The Cuarrman. Whistling it, you vary the notes, but played on the drum there is no variation, and only two notes to the tune, a long one and a short one? Mr. MoorrHeap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Some do sing? Mr. Mooreneap. I don’t know that they sing words. The Cuarrman. They hum a tune and pound on the drum? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. I attended an Indian dance on one occasion. The Indians kept time on a drum and hummed, or at least some of them hummed the tune with their voices. Such women as chose to stood up in the circle outside the drummers, and when the circle was full, or when the spirit moved them, they began a sort of shuffle dance to the left, standing always facing the drummers, and shifted with a slight shuffle of the feet to the left constantly. Sometimes some of the men came into the circle, but unless the dancers were so numer- ous that they were forced to touch one another the dancers never took hold of each other at all, each dancer dancing independent of each other dancer. They were clothed as usual and decently clothed, and so far as the handling of the sexes is concerned, the handling of one sex by the other, or the touching of persons of different classes, it was as decent a dance as I have ever seen anywhere. There was not a sign or even a suggestion of the slightest possible immorality. Mr. Mooreneap. It was the same way in White Earth. — The Cuamrman. Was the dance you saw substantially like the one I described ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. na The Cameraman. I might say that in addition to the regular dancers there was a little boy of about 12 or 13 years of age dressed fantastically, with little bells like sleigh bells fastened around under his knees and with war paint and turkey-feather decoration on his head, who danced independently of the other dancers—danced when they were dancing and danced when they were not dancing. I don’t 2096 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. know whether he was a necessary part of the performance or not. Do you know? Mr. Moorrneap. No, sir; that is not a necessary part. We did give one war dance at White Earth in a tent put up, but we had them stop toward midnight, as they got too noisy. The Cuarrman. None but this little boy acted in the way I have spoken of, or was dressed in the way he was, and he seemed to be independent from everybody. Mr. Burcu. It has been stated, I think in the evidence, or implied anyhow, that you and J. R. Allen arrayed yourselves in paint and feathers and other Indian paraphernalia and participated in one of these dances as real natives and had yourselves photographed in this attire or costume. Will you state what the circumstances or facts were in regard to that? Mr. Moorrueap. The chief of all the Chippewas, May-zhuck-e-ke- ge-shig, came out in his full regalia. J. R. Allen, of Boston, not being a Government official, put on the headdress and body sacks and stood alongside of this chief and I stood there, but not in any Indian costume, and so did Inspector Linnen, and we were photo- graphed, and I in my lectures and lantern slides showed that by dressing up Allen you could not make an Indian out of a white man. There was no attempt to deceive, as it was all in fun. Mr. Burcu. Just for the sake of getting a photograph? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And he did not participate in the dances in that costume ? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; Mr. Linnen, I don’t think, danced as much as I did. Mr. Burcu. I mean Mr. Allen didn’t in that Indian costume? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; I don’t think he dances; he may have danced once, but I don’t think he did any amount of dancing. Mr. Burcu. I just wanted to clear that matter up. I understood it wasn’t true. The CHarirman. There is testimony in the record tending to show that you and Mr. Linnen, in your work on the reservation, made statements to Indians, who had conveyed away their allot- ments by deed, inducing them to testify that they were full bloods and, therefore, incompetent to make deeds. Do you wish to make any statement on that point? 5 Mr. Mooreunap. Yes, sir; if you will permit, I would like to answer it at some length. We had with us three or four inspectors, one of whom, notably, Charles Moulton, who is a good interpreter, but a man who later went over to the other side—to Mr. Beaulieu’s interest—I have heard. I understood that he had told that Linnen and myself had instructed him to tell these Indians that they must make themselves swear that they were full bloods. We told them no such thing. I instructed Rose Ellis, a good interpreter, John Lawkins, Charles Moulton, and occasionally Rev. Father Romain, who helped to interpret several times, to tell these Indians that false swearing that they were mixed bloods would not make them mixed bloods and false swearing that they were full bloods would not make them full bloods; that we wanted the truth, and we told the Indians present to find out whether their parents and grand- parents were full-blood Indians without negro or white blood in WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2097 their veins; that if they had full-blood ancestors then they were full bloods, but that if there was a strain of the white or negro blood in them they were mixed bloods. We went over that in tire- some detail again and again to these Indians, and I wish to make protest against the statements by word of mouth or through news- papers in that country to the effect that we told these Indians that by swearing they were full bloods they would get their lands back. In the course of the conversation with Indians, I believe we did say that full bloods the Government would protect and give their lands back, but we did not tell them to swear they were in order to re- cover their lands. We were very particular not to do that, Mr. Chairman. The Cuatrman. You do not then consider that telling a man what his lawful rights are is an invitation to that man to commit perjury in order to get his rights? Mr. Moorenrap. No, sir. And we did not always tell them what their rights were. Occasionally, I think, we did. The Cuarrman. With reference to the question of mixed bloods and full bloods, as you understand it now, if a man has the slightest modicum of Indian blood in him he is regarded as a mixed blood? Mr. Mooreneap. That is what I understand. The Carman. No matter how infinitesimal that amount of blood is? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. As a matter of fact, you found on the reservation, did you not, many men claiming to be Indians on that theory who were in every sense of the word, to all appearance, and in their capacity to do business, in their mental attitude and aptitude, white men ? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And yet who claimed to be Indians? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Now, in the practical demonstration of the law, as you think the law ought to be, I would like to get your judgment as to whether you think a line should be drawn somewhere differentiat-. ing mixed bloods from full bloods—somewhere else than where the line is drawn now? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. What are your views on that point? Mr. Mooreneap. I think that Indians should show a greater pre- ponderance of white blood than anything; a great preponderance ought to be classed as white people. The Cuamman. Commissioner Leupp, the other day on that ques- tion, expressed the view that each case should be handled individ- ually and decided on its merits by some court or commission which would determine the competency of the individuals who had mixed blood. What do you say about that? Mr. Moorrneap. I would be willing to accept that. ; The Cuarrman. What do you think of the practicability of it? Mr. Mooreneap. I think the whole matter would rest with the commission. If you had a commission, not political, that you could depend on for years of service, it would be a splendid thing to place that matter and other matters of these Indians in their hands. 2098 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, The Cuairman. Taking it on White Earth, with its five thousand or so of inhabitants, how long would it be before the question was settled on the reservation by any ordinary machinery ? Mr. Moorzneap. I don’t know; it might be years. But may I say something there with reference to the right men? The Cuarrman. You want to say what you think. Mr. Moorreneap. That I think it is no more than just to the Indian for us to say it. I have been telling you a story of wrong here which is no pleasure for me to tell. Contrast White Earth with the Navajo Indians. There is a good man down in that Navajo country, and on Pine Ridge Maj. Brennan, who has taken the old fighting Sioux who whipped Custer and has made good citizens of them. It shows what a good man backed up can do. I don’t believe White Earth would have developed under Maj. Brennan or under Mr. Shelton, of the Navajo country. Those are two fine men, who are a credit to the service and have done fine work. Now, whether a commission or an individual should be in charge of a reservation is not for me to say; but I would think you could tone up a place like White Earth as you have toned up the Pine Ridge Reservation and the Navajos and others in this country. In 1890 they were dancing the ghost dance at Pine Ridge. I was out there at that time. After only 22 years those same Indians are irrigating, building dams and ditches. They own, I believe, over 7,000 head of stock and are progressive. That brings me to one more thing, and that is that the Indians who used to fight us—the Sioux, Apaches, and the Navajos—are the progressive Indians to-day, and the Chippewas, the Pah-utes, and the California Indians, who never had any back- bone, are those who are not so progressive at the present time. I think you will find that holds good. The Cuairman. Do these Navajos do farming; and if so, what is the size of their farms? Mr. Moorrueap. It is more grazing country than it is farming, although they raise beans and corn, squashes, potatoes, and hay, and, a great many of them, alfalfa. They have thousands of sheep and they are a good, mora], and industrious class of people. The Nava- jos are the best Indians to-day in this country, and they number 38.000. The CuHatrman. What is your judgment as to the comparative merits of the plan of starting the White Earth Indians farming on 4 large scale as the white man farms, using teams and machinery, and all that, on the one hand, or the plan of asking them to farm on a small scale first ? Mr. Mooreneap. I would think it would be better for them to farm on a small scale. I think it would be well for them to have good field matrons there to hold them. I think many of the Chippewa women are more competent than the Chippewa men. I asked Mr. Valentine and Mr. Linnen to request the appointment of Mrs. Sophia Agnes, daughter of the famous chief May-zhuck-ke-ge-shig. Mrs. Sophia Agnes does not know much about history or arithmetic or physics, but she follows the Chippewa language. She is a good woman and is well and favorably known on the reservation. She wanted to go among these people from house to house and be a field matron. If they could get such people at work among these Chip- pewa, instructing them in farming, and get them to planting gar- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2099 dens—because they must depend on the gardens and not on the wild rice, as it is nearly gone; not on the game, which is gone; not on the maple sugar, which is passing away because of their extravagent abuse of the tree—they would do something, and Mrs. Sophia Agnes has had experience in gardening and poultry. But you must over- come these mistakes that we Americans have made. I include myself as a member of this board of commissioners as well as the Inidan Office. We are just as much to blame as it is. We passed a law putting a premium on idleness and disciplined the men who were in- dustrious. That rankles in the mind of the Chippewa. Then we permitted them to be swindled out of their property. Then we per- mitted trachoma to spread so the children are going blind. We ap- propriated $60,000 for health and nearly $3,009,000 for education. ‘We should have reversed it, so that the Chippewa are discouraged, except here and there are progressive families, and we have to go there with men and women and money and grapple with that prob- lem herocially, or we are going to lose the Chippewa. ‘ Mr. EonGE: You think it would be better for them to have small arms ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Georcr. And do handwork rather than machine work? Mr. Moorgueap. Yes, sir. Train them up to the other. So far we are doing that. There is a progressive Indian by the name of George Lighliey, who has a big farm. Rev. Smith, the Episcopal minister at Pine Point, has a good farm; so has Rev. William Smith, the missionary at Twin Lakes. They are setting the Chippewa a good example. I don’t think you could take the young people and start them in on that work at once. It is a terrible problem there at White Earth; it requires a splendid man for the position; a man who understands farming and poultry; a man who has tact and is a good disciplinarian, and he needs a corps of good men about him. Mr. Gzorcg. Do you think the apportioning of small quantities of agricultural land among such Indians as had a desire to do garden- ing would be one of the things to do up there? : Mr. Moorenesp. That would be my opinion. Mr. Georce. Do you think the old and young could work that way? Mr. Mooreneap. I don’t know that the old people could, but they could do something. We have to inaugurate a policy of some kind along those lines. Mr. Grorce. Would you take any of the younger men off and send them elsewhere to learn what could be learned and get them occupa- tions outside of the reservation ? . : Mr. Mooreweap. There are a great many people who believe in that plan. Mr. Georce. What is your judgment? < . Mr. Moorenean. J think if the Indian is bright and progressive and intelligent, can get a good position, he had better take that whether it is among his own people or away. But the average Indian better be at home, granting he can have a little farm and cultivate the soil and progress along those lines. It is a tremendous problem. It isa matter I do not feel competent to handle in an offhand talk. We have 5,000 people there—paupers, diseased, and discouraged. It is a big problem. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, the former Commissioner of Indian Affairs is here and Mr. Meritt also, and in all I said here 2100 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the past few days, in which I have given you facts, I have no personal feelings. I make that statement because I am afraid one or two men think I am against them personally, because I am against this policy. That is not true. I simply want to do what I can to help clean this up; that is all. The Cuarrman. In the testimony we took in Minnesota there were two views advanced by persons who claim to be familiar with the Indian and his environment. One of these views was, that he should be permitted by law to dispose of every bit of property he had, so that he would be brought face to face with necessity and then com- pelled to either work or starve and become a public burden. The other way was that the Government would conserve his property for him and treat him as a person under legal disability. Do you mind giving your views as to the merits of these two policies respectively # Mr. Mooreueap. There has been so much stated and printed on that important subject that I do not know that I am fully capable of speaking intelligently on it. I do not believe in the policy of taking away everything from the Indian, because to some of the Indians who work it would be a blessing to them, but the old Indians and the ignorant Indians would either starve or be subjects of charity in their respective States. I do not think you could make such a sweeping ruling, would be my mere opinion of the matter. But I think we ought to have a different policy for safeguarding the health and property first, and the improvement of our inspection service sec- ond. I believe in educating the Indian. I believe in allotting them, bee I do not believe in making those two things first, as we have been oing. The Cusirman. Having been on the ground, there, you are of course familiar with local public opinion along the railroad through the reservation which, in substance, is that retaining the Indian’s property in his hands is blocking the progressive, economic, and commercial spirit of the white people in that vicinity ? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And that perhaps the paramount consideration, as they see it, ought to be the commercial prosperity of the towns and of the white folks there on the reservation, and they will bring aoe) strong pressure to bear on Congress and elsewhere in that irection ? Mr. Moorrnesp. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. It may be that you have noticed within the past few days a circular sent out signed by Mr. O. L. Thompson, as chair- man, and Mr. Fred Dennis, of Detroit, as secretary, of the Business Men’s Commercial Clubs of those towns, setting forth more or less in detail the views entertained by the white people there? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Might we have an expression of opinion from you on that line? Mr. Moorengap. I will give it as my opinion that undoubtedly there is a conflict, and there will be a more serious conflict, between those white interests and the Indians, and then the situation will be this: Either protect the Indian and heed not the cry of these white men, as made through their commercial clubs, or heed their cry and do away with the Indian. I don’t see what else we can do.. It seems to me the Indians could live on less land if we gave them good land WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2101 and could compel them to farm; but in their present state of course they are not progressive. The white people are progressive and the white people covet the Indian land. : Grorce. Whom do you think ought to have prior considera- ion? Mr. Mooreueap. That is a difficult answer to make point blank. I am a friend of the Indian. I think our country is big enough, since we took it away from the Indians, and we gave them all this misery and poverty. It is our fault and not theirs. The student of history knows the Indian in the days of Lewis and Clark was far better off than he is to-day, and it is up to us to take care of these Indians and protect them. The Cuarrman. What do you base that statement on? Mr. Moorrneap. By reading those journals and others, and the observations of travelers and others as to the whole body of Indians. I don’t mean one Indian, but mean all the Indians put together. I don’t mean the individual Indian. The Crairman. As to the question of poverty? Mr. Mooreneap. Their health and everything. Of course, if we split hairs on that we will get back to the question of civilization, and I would be voted down. But I mean their condition from the point of view as a free human being compared with their present condition. But we are face to face with these conditions. The white people may want that reservation, as they wanted the California and all the others, and the Indian probably has to go, but we should pro- tect him as long as we can; get him to that point where he can sup- port himself. The Cuarrman. This situation presents itself to me—I would like to get your views on it as a student of the Indian from an etholog- ical as well as from a social and economic viewpoint: The history of the Caucasian race for many thousands of years shows that the civilization of the Caucasian has been along purely commercial lines and that the liberty which we boast about has growh up mostly around property rights and commercial interests; that during all those generations the white man has been trained both in the schools and out in the world to trade and commerce, to make interchanges that are favorable to him, to keep the other fellow from cheating him, and, if he can, in a quiet, decent way, to cheat the other fellow. These ideas for many thousands of years have been in process of being sharpened along the lines of trade and commerce, and we are the product of all that that went before us in that regard. Now, that race comes into physical contact with another, a different, an alien race—the Indian—whose history, so fas as we can trace it back, has been just the opposite of ours, who held trade and property in contempt, who had no knowledge of values, who did not care for a knowledge of them, and in our intercourse with him we found it exceedingly easy and quite convenient to cheat him. We have cheated him; we have pretty nearly driven him off the earth. But at a later day conscience touched us as a nation and we woke up to the situation and tried to do a little justice to the remnant of that race and we assigned them certain diminished—grossly diminished— reservations to live on, although they once possessed the entire land. But the lessons that we have learned from our ancestors all these centuries urge us on still and we are not satisfied to let him live his 2102 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. way or even let him live in peace on these diminished reservations, until now the question is an acute one with the Government as the guardian of this Indian race. What policy shall we continue to pursue toward him on his last resting place—the diminished reserva- tion? Now, what do you think the policy should be? Should we go on in obedience to the call of commerce on the reservation and drive him off the diminished reservation, or should we in this last step try to keep faith with him and treat him as a guardian should its ward, in good faith protecting his rights and his interests? I would like to get an expression of your views. Mr. Moorrurap. We talked that over in our board of commis- sioners. We felt we should do something radical to help the Indian, and I understood from Chairman Draper that we were going to draw up a plan, after consultation together with such men as Mr. Draper and Dr. Elliott, and Cardinal Gibbons, and one or two other members of the board to see if they couldn’t help, or at least offer suggestions. Personally, the thing is too sweeping for me to attempt to say much regarding it. I believe the Indian should be protected, but I am not prepared to say at this moment just what we should do, except that.I firmly believe in the policy followed by the Indian Office under Mr. Valentine, except this, that they have not fully emphasized the pro- tection matter and their inspection service. Those two things are the only things that I have against the management of the whole Indian Office. I believe if they had done that properly you would not have had half this trouble to-day. You have the men and the money, and it is incomprehensible to me how this whole thing should have de- veloped, except that they, perhaps in all sincerity, believed that the proper thing to do was simply to educate and allot the Indians. Mr. Gzorcr. But I thought you touched upon one other case, and that was with respect to influences of various sorts. Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; evil influences. That is a great question. Mr. Grorgg. The land-grabbers were at work—large and small? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. You must remember on such a reserva- tion as White Earth the Indian does not come in contact with the good people that you do here. The scum of creation is out there—the man who marries an Indian woman just to get her property and the man who goes on a drunk, the land-grabber and the stockman and the miner—and the Indian comes in contact with these people contin- ually, and it is no wonder he loses and falls back. / Mr. Grorcr. That influence would not only be a direct influence, as in the case of a grabber, but a man will go into politics and take any measures necessary to effect his ends? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. ‘ . Mr. Grorce. And bring all kinds of political influence and busi- ness influence, and if necessary religious influence—any sort of in- fluence ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. To get their lands away from them, and then leave them to the mercies of disease and starvation ? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. It is an unpleasant subject. The Cuarrman. Going back to your statement as to the formation of a plan by your Board of Indian Commissioners, yesterday, while here the chairman of the board, Dr. Draper, stated’ he would write the chairman of this committee a long letter relative to this subject. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2108. The chairman then notified him the letter would go into the record. Are you prepared to say whether the letter to which he referred’ will include the plan to which you now refer? Mr.. Moorrunap. No, sir. They were talking about that plan. They may be discussing it to-day. I understood Te was to write you a letter regarding the work of the board, something of that sort, but I don’t know what will be stated in that letter. I have been here all the time instead of down there. Mr. Grorcr. You don’t know whether it will include this policy? Mr. Moorenezap. No, sir. I know they spoke the other day that we should become more active and aggressive and take our part in this Indian fight. That was the consensus of opinion. The Cuairman. While on the reservation, did you learn the sal- aries paid those who were administering the law and affairs there? Mr. Moorzuerap. No, sir. Mr. Linnen took charge of all those matters. Mr. Grorcz. You did not learn, casually, anything about it, or come to any conclusions? Mr. Moorrueap. Except that I heard that Maj. Howard was paid something like $2,000, or Mr. Dennis, the chief stenographer there, a very able man; I think they paid him $100 or $115, but I did not go into that. Mr. Gerorce. Do you know what Dr. Richards is paid at White Earth? Did you learn that? Mr. Moorzueap. No, sir; I couldn’t tell you exactly. Mr, Gzorcr. Do these seem to be adequate payments? Mr. Moorrneap. Not for good men. May I retract that state- ment? You get as good men as you could expect. One of the best men is Dr. Richards, who stayed all through this White Earth fight when the other doctors left or were transferred. He told me he wished to go into the Panama service, but was afraid to go away in the midst of that trachoma. Mr. Gzorce. Do you think his pay is adequate? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir; I think a man like Richards ought to have more. Mr. Grorcr. You don’t remember just at this time what his pay is? Mr. Mooreueap. No, sir. Mr. Meritt, do they pay doctors a thousand dollars? Mr, Merrrr. Usually $1,200. ; ; : Mr. Grorcz. Do you know whether Dr. Richards receives his equivalent to pay for men of the same service in the other depart- ments of the Government ? Mr. Moorrneap. I can not answer that. Mr. Grorce. In the Navy or Army, for instance? Mr. Mooreueap. I do not know. : Mr. Grorcr. Is there any reason why it should not be equivalent ? Mr. Mooreneap. No, sir. Dr. Richards should be paid much more than he is. He has harder work than the average man in the hospital. Mr. Gzorcs. He is exposed to considerable personal danger? _ Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir; and going day and night—in the winter across that reservation at all hours. A man who is a doctor and does his duty there is a hero. : Mr. Gzorce. And he ought to get something of a hero’s pay? Mr. Moorrneap. Yes, sir. 2104 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuamman. Judge, have these questions suggested anything that you would like to ask? Mr. Lever. I would like to get Mr. Moorehead’s opinion on some- thing that I am ignorant of. What is your judgment about the differ- ence between putting little day schools in among the Indians or send- ing them out to the big schools out there? r. Moorrueap. I should think, Mr. Leupp, that that would be better. Mr. Leupp. The little schools? Mr. Moorenesp. Yes, sir; the day schools. But I did not go into the school matters as thoroughly as Mr. Linnen. Mr. Gzorce. Do you mean, Mr. Leupp, for the smaller children? Mr. Lever. I mean for the children generally. Of course, a few of the brighter ones might be sent away. Mr. Grorcs. For instance, would you, instead of sending young men and young women to Carlisle, have something equivalent to that—an institution on White River, for instance ? Mr. Lever. For the great bulk of the Indians; yes. Mr. Grorcs. Your question involved that, Mr. Leupp? Mr. Levrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Georce. Would you answer in the same way—that is, the higher education for Indians, such as they get, should be on the res- ervation rather than abroad? Mr. Lever. That is not what I understood your question to be. I thought you spoke about sending them to Carlisle as distinguished, for instance, or as having them conducted, so far as these schools will take them, on the reservation. That was my idea, but the little day schools was what I had reference to. They might carry these up as far as the eighth grade in our schools. There was a question in my mind about raising all the Indians together in a tribe, or whether certain individuals should be taken and sent off and get out of touch with their people. Mr. Mooreueap. I would like to say something about the retention of men in the Indian service. It seems to me that we ought to fol- low—this is a little forward, perhaps, on my part—the British sys- tem. If we get a good man in the Indian service, whether he is a commissioner or whether he is a school-teacher, it don’t matter, we ought to keep such a man in the service. On many of these reserva- tions the Indians no more than become acquainted with the superin- tendent of the board or teacher than away he goes. If we had some plan of promotion, I suppose that could be done. But if we could keep men like Shelton and like Maj. Brennan there year after year, oe Indians learn to like them, and it is much preferable to these changes. Mr. Grorce. Why do they go? Because of higher pay? Mr. Moorrueap. Yes; or it may be politics. I don’t know why, but they do change. Mr. Grorcr. That is, some influences like higher pay attract them outside and in some cases drive them away ? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. In the case of a politician, a fellow might want the place. Mr. Moorrneap. I don’t know how it is, but it struck me as a bad thing in the service. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2105 Mr. Grorce. When you spoke of the British system, where applied ? Mr. Mooreneap. I mean in the British colonial office, where the men go into the India service and take charge of these various districts and are promoted. They regard it as a life service and an honorable service, and they are kept in that service as the years pass until they reach higher places. Mr. Burcu. That applies throughout the British Government. Mr. Mooreuesp. There is no criticism in this, but it seems to me unfortunate we can not do that and get good men and get them to realize they are to be there for life or good behavior. Mr. Burcu. As in the Army or Navy? Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir; or in the Consular Service. The Cuarrman. Do you know anything, from your own observation and study, about the treatment of the Indians by the British? Those people are so similar to ours and in our institutions. Mr. Mooreneap. Not very much, except this: That during all our years of history on the plains in the early thirties, for instance, and down to the last fight, Canada had no serious trouble with her In- dians. Yet there were fewer people in Canada. There were thou- sands of Indians who went acress the border several times, and yet they killed nobody up there. But it was different with us. I have not been studying the matter up there, but one of the members of the Indian Rights Association men up there told me the system was quite different, and he put it this way: That the Canadians regarded an Indian as an Indian and treated him as an Indian, whereas we tried to make a white man out of him and break up his tribal relations. Also, the Catholic Church has a great hold upon these Indians and develops various communities without any friction of denominational affairs. Mr. Georce. Do the British recognize the old principle of the In- dians of holding lands in common rather than in severalty?. Mr. Moorsrueap. I am ignorant on that subject, but I understood from whoever went up there that their Indians, while given to some extent to drink, were fairly well to do and were getting along pretty well. Mr. Burcu. Confining your consideration to conditions as they now appear on White Earth, taking into consideration that there is yet a portion of the lands that have not gone out of Indian hands and that there is a large amount at least of available stump land— that is, land from which the timber has been cut but which, if cleared, might make agricultural land—and the fact that they have, possibly, somewhere in the neighborhood of four millions of dollars as a tribal fund—taking into consideration the disease or diseases that they have, the low state of energy, we may say, and moral force at present existing among them, what would be your idea of devoting that tribal fund to the clearing of land, so that each person who de- sired it might have a small amount of actually cleared land ready for cultivation, the building of homes and cottages and sanitary ar- rangements and villages, where the lots, instead of being diminutive in size, would be 5 and 10 acres for each home; the erection of a hos- pital and home of a central character, with these village homes sur- rounding it or within reasonable reach of its influence by the resident doctors, but not a dormitory; where the patients would be put in in a great body? What would be your idea of such a course as that 73822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-8, vol 2——38 2106 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. instead of the division of the tribal funds pro rata among these Indians, mixed blood and pure blood, young and old, the parceling it out in that way—in other words, using that tribal fund for homes, hospital care, education, and control? Mr. Moorueap. I think it would be an excellent plan. Mr. Burcu. To expend that money for that purpose? : Mr. Mooreueap. Yes, sir. Now, if you divide up $4,000,000 among 5,300 Chippewa, some of these Indians will keep it, but more will not. Mr. Grorce. Would not the whites do that? : Mr. Moorrnnap. Yes; but you would not find whites where a whole community would throw money away, as these Indians do. This would be a good plan, Judge Burch, I would think; but you would have to give them seeds to plant with. Mr. Burcu. Yes; and in the general work of directing them? Mr. Mooreneap. And getting them started, and I would like to add when that was done to call them together and, if possible, im- press it upon them that this is the last time there will be money for them. — Mr. Grorcz. Would you hold that land—these houses and hospi-: tals and all—in tribal property as tribal property, just as the money is now held as a property in common, so as not possibly to have it squandered or deed it away, or would you attempt to give it to them in severalty ? Mr. Moorrueap. No, sir; I would hold it under certain restrictions, and as these men become competent, judged competent by a commis- sion or by people there who really knew—not by such persons as the Beaulieu crowd who have been passing in the past upon who is com- petent—but as they become competent let them have the property. But if you gave them the deeds to these new houses and lands at once a great many of them would probably lose it. Mr. Burcu. When they become competent your idea is they would attain the property ? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; and then if they are foolish enough to squander it that would be their own fault. I remember a case of one of the Rock girls, educated at Carlisle, who came to us with a long story—and I think Linnen got her property back, or Howard did; some one got the property back—and that girl in a few weeks sold the property. Mr. Grorce. Was it not your idea that it would be better to hold these homes as assignable to persons who came back and as places to return to the family; encouraging the younger element to go away, but still to regard this as home, keeping it altogether tribal and keeping on holding it instead of assigning it in severalty; keeping it perpetually until they had assimulated with modern civilization? Mr. Moorenrap. The severalty plan works well with some In- dians, but not with others. Mr. Grorce. There is just one thing I would like to continue along. that line: Did you ever think about the growth of Rome in connec-. tion with the Indians? In Rome, when it was young, and in its strongest period, when there was more of an equal distribution of wealth, in its best period in its whole history, was a country of little farms, farms where each man had in severalty his 8 or 4 acres, and WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2107 then there was held in common the pasture land. Macauley in his lines on Horatius says: They. gave him of the cornland, That was of public right, AS much as two strong oxen Could plow from morn till night. That is to say, out of the public lands—cornlands, grazing lands— they gave to Horatius for great heroism something of this cornland, but only enough for two strong oxen to plow from morn till night. If we look through the history of Europe we find that same principle. largely obtains among the people from whom we sprung, ‘and would that not give a suggestion, along the same line that Judge Burch spoke of, namely, that the Indians be given small quantities of land for grazing or hunting besides those things that our civilization, through the Indian Bureau, might bring them, such as hospitals and schools— the relation to the small pieces of land being that of ownership when. they become competent, but, otherwise, the Government holding the fee, and that being tillable land, and all the other lands to be held as tribal lands to be held in common, not only in common with rela- tion to our own civilization, but of their civilization? Mr. Mooreneap. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. Burcu. Suppose the lands that are still left or could be ac- quired at a small price should be equipped with these village homes and different schools and hospitals and a certain amount of the funds left to be distributed for a period, say, of 30 or 40 years, on this line, dividing it up at some rate, say, a million and a half be devoted to the. equipping of that land, the building of these small homes, cottages, and villages, and two million and a half kept in tribal funds at the highest rate that an intelligent commission could get it on property security; do you suppose there would be enough of that money thus to care for them, and that these Indians would stay under such cir- cumstances ? Mr. Moorrueap. Pardon me; do you mean enough of interest ? Mr. Burcu. Enough money. Two millions and a half here kept for tribal funds and a million and a half for these small homes and the hospitals and the schools—maintained in that way. Mr. Mooreneap. $100,000 a year? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Mooreneap. I should think, with what they raise, if they were at all industrious, it could be done; but if they sat still and lived out of that hundred thousand, why, no. Mr. Burcu. I have no more questions at present. . Mr. Merrrr. You requested that I procure from the Indian Office. reports made by Maj. McLaughlin, Mr. Holcomb, and Mr. Abbott. I have here a report made by Mr. Abbott, dated March 5, 1911, on the Leech Lake situation, a short report of only two pages. The file clerk told me he had no report made recently by either Maj. McLaughlin or Mr. Holcomb. . . The Cuarman. Has he any of them relating to White Earth? Mr. Merrrr. No general report. Maj. McLaughlin made some special reports regarding the White Earth, but no general report recently. 2108 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. O’Brien. How about the reports of Inspector Dalby and Inspector Davis? Mr. Merirr. I have a memorandum here that they told me they would send up all the reports they would be able to find, and I have a memorandum here from the chief saying that Mr. Dalby’s report was sent to the superintendent of White Earth Reservation on April 9, 1907, and, so far as he has been able to learn, has not been returned to the office. Here is a report from Supervisor Davis. Mr. Burcu. We don’t care about that. There was a Charles Davis who was a school-teacher there for years; both he and his wife lived on the reservation about that time. Sam Davis went there and took this estimate of timber. He is a different man. Mr. Leurr. Charles Davis and his wife were teachers at the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Merrrr. That was five years ago. We can send to the super- intendent of the White Earth Reservation and ask that he return this report immediately. Mr. O’Brien. This report is made, according to the memorandum Mr. Meritt has, subsequent to the passage of the Clapp amendment of 1906, and in fact at a time when it was at its height, and I think it ought to be a matter of great interest in this investigation to ascertain whether Mr. Dalby saw anything of what was going on there or not. Mr. Merirr. I might suggest that Mr. Dalby is now an attorney in this city. Mr. O’Brien. It is not a matter in reference to Mr. Dalby per- sonally, but it is simply that report. Mr. Georcr. I would like to hear, Mr. Meritt, what you found in looking for the Bruce report? Mr. Menrtrr. I will say, we had a thorough search made of the Indian Bureau, both in the regular files, the old files of the office, and in the semiofficial and private files of the office, and the file division was unable to locate any memorandum from Mr. Bruce on the timber situation on the White Earth Reservation. After that, I asked a clerk in the forestry section of our office, Mr. Van Barr, to go to the Forestry Bureau and have a thorough search made of the files of that bureau for this memorandum. Mr. Georcr. Of all the files? Mr. Mrrirrt. Yes, sir; and they were unable to locate any report or memorandum having been made and filed in that bureau. Mr. Grorcr. I understood you to say, or somebody to say, or Mr. Bruce to say, that it was a confidential file in your bureau. Mr. O’Brien. That was Mr. Leupp’s testimony, which he made after Mr. Bruce testified. Mr. Grorer. You made a search of the confidential files of the Indian Bureau? Mr. Merirr. We did. Mr. Georcr. Was there a confidential file in the Forestry Bureau? Mr. Menirtr. I can not say. Mr. Grorcr. Did you make a search in all the files of the Forestry Bureau? Mr. Merrrr. The clerk of the forestry section of our office, who is familiar with conditions in the Forestry Service, and who had for- merly been an employee of that service, was requested to go there WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2109 and cause a thorough examination to be made, and the file section of that office reported they were unable to locate a memorandum or report made by Mr. Bruce on this subject. Mr. Leupp. May I ask Mr. Meritt a question? The Cuarrman. Oh, yes. Mr. Levrr. Mr. Meritt, would you ask the gentleman just now referred to, to find out about that correspondence between Mr. Pinchot and Mr. Bruce? You remember Mr. Bruce made the statement here yesterday that he got a letter in the first place, followed by a tele- gram. Now, possibly, if they can find those they will find this other matter filed with it. Mr. Merrrr. I will ask the clerk to make that search. Mr. Grorcx. Mr. Leupp thinks that may throw some light on this whole matter, and I am very much interested init, and, in justifica- tion to Mr. Leupp, I would like to find these papers if possible. Mr. Merrrr. I will ask the Forestry Service to loan you all the correspondence between Mr. Bruce and Mr. Pinchot in that bureau with regard to White Earth matters. J.T. Vaw Merne called; duly sworn by Chairman Graham. Mr. Van Metre. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I only want to take a few moments of your time. It appears that a statement was made in the record, supported by an affidavit of one Henry La Roque, given to Mr. Linnen and Mr. Moorehead at the time they were out there, and it was brought up in the record during this hearing and prior to that time it appeared in an article that came out in the Boston Transcript a couple of years ago to the effect that this party, Henry La Roque, had stated that I had charged him some $800 or $900 for obtaining a patent for his land. Assuming that I had charge of that by going down to the agency and obtaining the patents and charging him $800, it was, of course, an exorbitant price; that there ought not to have been any price at all. The statement stopped there, and I wish to state what the facts were. Mr. La Roque came to me one time and told me that the agent, Michelet, had sent for him to deliver some three patents to allot- ments which had covered land allotted to two of his people, one 160 and one of 80 acres, claiming that he had not any right to have those lands and wished him to surrender his patents, which he did. He surrendered the patents to Agent Michelet. He came to me, finally, and I told him as his counsel that I thought he was entitled to the land and that the Government would not cancel these patents. He was told to come down and relinquish these lands, and I advised him not to, and then we entered into a verbal agreement whereby I was to defend the action to retain his land for him, and the agent had the patents, as I remember it. I caused to be obtained certified copies of these from the Land Office here in Washington, and I pro- ceeded to probate the estate of his deceased children. During the progress of the preceeding in the probate court Mr. Michelet notified the Indian Office here of these proceedings and the office requested him to serve notice on Mr. La Roque to stop the proceedings and surrender these patents and relinquish the land, which I advised him not to do, and we proceeded, and this was the condition: He 2110 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. having no money, we entered into an agreement that I would take it on a contingent basis and he was to pay me out of the land, which he did, gave me a deed to 180 acres, I to stand the expenses of the lawsuit und he never has paid me a dollar in cash. So, finally, the Government commenced an action against him for the cancellation -of one of these patents. Proceedings were had and the pleadings drawn and service was cbtained upon him, and the action was finally tried upon the statement facts in the United States circuit court at -Fergus Falls last year, and Judge Amidon, of North Dakota, was on -the bench. In June he dismissed the complainant’s bill. which. of course, entitled the defendant, Mr. La Roque, to a decree in equity reserving to him the land, and now the Attorney General’s office has instructed Mr. Houck, the district attorney of Minnesota, to appeal to the United States Circuit Court of Appeals, and it is now pending in the United States Circuit Court of Appeals, and the case is to be argued in May at St. Paul. These are the facts briefly in connection with my charge of $800 for obtaining the patent or patents for this party, and I have here a record of the proceedings which will substantiate my statement, if you care to look at it. It is a certified copy of the record in the cir- cuit court of the United States at Fergus Falls. Mr. Burcu. Did you obtain any money? Mr. Van Merre. No, sir; not a dollar in cash. Mr. Burcu. And you paid all vour expenses ? Mr. Van Merre. Yes, sir; and the court expenses. Mr. Burcu. But you expect to have a share if you succeed ulti- mately in the result? Mr. Van Marre. Yes, sir; in fact, I have that share. Mr. Burcu. You have it now? / Mr. Van Merre. Yes, sir; and I am defending the action through ‘the courts. Mr. Burcu. I may say that Mr. Crane, in whom I have great con- fidence, one of my associates who has examined this whole matter very carefully, told me before leaving Minneapolis that he had ex- amined this case of Mr. Van Metre and he was satisfied that the party who made the affidavit was mistaken and did not understand what he was talking about, and that the fee was not unduly wrong, and that Mr. Van Metre was in the right about this matter and ought to have an opportunity to explain in his own behalf. For that reason I have called it up. The Cuarrman, Mr. Van Metre,.in order to get into the record your identification, I will ask you to state your full name? The Wirness. John T. Van Metre. The Cuarrman. Where do you reside? Mr. Vaw Merre. Mahnomen, Minn. The Cuarrman. How long have you lived there? Mr. Van Merre. About six years and a half. The Cuatrman. What is your present occupation? - Mr. Van Merre. I am an attorney and counsellor at law. The Cuarrman. That is all, Mr. Van Metre. At 4.30 p. m. the committee adjourned until 1.30 p. m. Friday, ‘March 8, 1912. / WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ‘i Q111 Following is a list of the present Board of Indian Commissioners, with the laws authorizing it: Members: Andrew S. Draper, chairman, Albany, N. Y.; Albert K. Smiley, Mo- honk Lake, N. Y.; Merrill E. Gates, 1309 Rhode Island Avenue, Washington, D. C.; William D. Walker, Buffalo, N. Y.; George Vaux, jr., 1421 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia, Pa.; Michael E. Bannin, 55 Montgomery Place, Brooklyn, N. Y.; Warren K. Moorehead, Andover, Mass.; Samuel A. Eliot, 25 Beacon Street, Boston, Mass.; James Gibbons, Baltimore, Md.; Frank Knox, Sault Ste. Marie, Mich. Secretary: H. C. Phillips, Board of Indian Commissioners, Washington, D. C. ORGANIZATION AND DUTIES OF THE BoarD or INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. . he Board of Indian Commissioners was created in 1869. Its members serve without salary, and maintain an office in Washington, for the expenses of which and of travel Congress has made special or annual appropriations. Although the board reports to the Secretary of the Interior it is not a bureau or division .of the Interior Department, but rather a body of private citizens appointed by the President, purposely kept reasonably free from governmental control, de- barred from salaries, and afforded opportunities for investigation in order that they may freely express an intelligent and impartial opinion on matters per- taining to Indian administration. The origin and functions of the board are defined in the following excerpts: (Act of April 10, 1869 (16 Stat., 40).] * * * * * * * And be it further enacted, That there be appropriated the further sum of two millions of dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to enable the Presi- dent to maintain the peace among-and with the various tribes, bands, and parties of Indians, and to promote civilization among said Indians, bring them where practicable, upon reservations, relieve their necessities, and encourage their efforts at self-support; a report of all expenditures under this appropria- tion to be made in detail to Congress in December next; and for the purpose of enabling the President to execute the powers conferred by this act, he is hereby authorized, at his discretion, to organize a board of commissioners, to consist of not more than ten persons, to be selected by him from men eminent for their intelligence and philanthropy, to serve without pecuniary compensa- tion, who may, under his direction, exercise joint contro] with the Secretary of the Interior over the disbursement of the appropriations made by this act or any part thereof that the President may designate; and to pay the necessary expenses of transportation, subsistence, and clerk hire of said commissioners while actually engaged in said service, there is hereby appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessary. * * * x * * » [Executive Order of June 3, 1869.] EXECUTIVE MANSION, Washington, D. C., June 8, 1869. A commission of citizens having been appointed, under the authority of law, te cooperate with the administrative departments in the management of Indian affairs * * * the following regulations will, till further directions, control -the action of said commission and the Bureau of Indian Affairs in matters com- ing under their joint supervision: The commission will make its own organization and employ its own clerical assistants * * *, wi i : The commission shall be furnished with full opportunity to inspect the records of the Indian Office, and to obtain full information as to the conduct of all parts of the affairs thereof. They shall have full power to inspect, in person or by subcommittee, the various Indian superintendencies and agencies in the Indian country * * * 2112 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. They are authorized to be present, in person of by subcommittee, at purchases of goods for Indian purposes, and inspect said purchases, advising with the Commisioner of Indian Affairs with regard thereto. Whenever they’ shall deem it necessary or advisable that instructions of superintendents or agents be changed or modified, they will communicate such advice, through the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, to the Secre- tary of the Interior; and, in like manner, their advice as to changes in modes of purchasing goods or conducting the affairs of the Indian Bureau proper. Complaints against superintendents or agents or other officers will, in the same manner, be forwarded to the Indian Bureau or Department of the Interior for action. : The commission will, at their board meetings, determine upon the recom- mendations to be made as to the plans of civilizing or dealing with the Indians, and submit the same for action in the manner above indicated; and all plans involving the expenditure of public money will be acted upon by the Executive or the Secretary of the Interior before expenditure is made under the same. * * * * * * * All the officers of the Government connected with the Indian service are enjoined to afford every facility and opportunity to said commission and their subcommittees in the performance of their duties, and to give the most respect- ful heed to their advice within the limits of such officers’ positive instructions from their superiors; to allow such commissioners full access to their records and accounts, and to cooperate with them in the most earnest manner, to the extent of their proper powers, in the general work of civilizing the Indians, protecting them in their legal rights, and stimulating them to become indus- trious citizens in permanent homes, instead of following a roving and savage life. The commission will keep such records or minutes of their proceedings as may be necessary to afford wvidence of their action, and will provide for the manner in which their communications with and advice to the Government shall be made and authenticated. U. S. Grant, [Revised Statutes of the United States.] Src. 2039. There shall be a Board of Indian Commissioners, comprised of not more than ten persons, appointed by the President solely, from men eminent for intelligence and philanthropy, and who shall serve without pecuniary compensa- tion. (Apr. 10, 1869, 16 Stat.. 40.) — Sec. 2041. The board of commissioners mentioned in section two thousand and thirty-n'ne shall supervise all expenditures of money appropriated for the benefit of Indians within the limits of the United States, and shall inspect all goods purchased for Indians, in connection with the Commissioner of Ind‘an Affairs, whose duty it shall] be to consult the commission in making purchases of such goods. (July 15, 1870, 16 Stat., 360.) Sec. 2042. Any member of the Board of Indian Commissioners is empowered to investigate all contracts, expenditures, and accounts in connection with the Indian service, and shall have access to all books and papers relating thereto in any Government office; but the examination of vouchers and accounts by the executive committee of said board shall not be a prerequisite of payment. (May 29, 1872, 17 Stat., 186.) [Act of May 17, 1882 (22 Stat., 70).] * * * * * * * And hereafter the commission shall only have power to visit and inspect agencies and other branches of the Indian service, and to inspect goods pur- chased for said service, and the Commisxioner of Indian Affairs shall_consult with the commission in the purchase of supplies. The commission shall report their doings to the Secretary of the Interior. ? i * % i * * * * SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Friday, March 8, 1912. The committee met at 1.30 o’clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) and Hon. Henry George, jr., present. : Appearances as formerly. The CHatrman. The committee will please come to order. In connection with the testimony of Mr. Moorehead the committee would like to have printed in the record the concluding pages of the Forty-second Annual Report of the Board of Indian Commissioners, being the report for 1910-11, these pages containing the names of the commissioners, the act of Congress of April 10, 1869, author- izing the creation of the board, and the Executive order of June 3, 1869, by President Grant, and some amendments made to the law. The matter referred to appears at the conclusion of the testimony of Mr. Warren K. Moorehead, of March 7, 1912. The Cuairman. Judge Burch, have you anything to suggest? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir; I have a matter to suggest. In connnection with this investigation, perhaps it might be said that only two officials or ex-officials have been directly assailed as to the good faith of their actions—one, Simon Michelet, ex-agent, and the other, Maj. McLaughlin, who, I think, is still an officer in the Interior Depart- ment. I understand this board to have taken the position respecting Mr. Michelet, at Minneapolis, that while they would not compel his attendance and testimony, for reasons of fairness they would notify him that he might appear and offer such explanation as he saw fit respecting the matters which were in evidence apparently against him, or tending against him, as to his official conduct.. It strikes me that the situation of Mr. McLaughlin is somewhat analogous, and I desire to remind the committee of his case and that matter at this time, so that the committee may take such action as it thinks proper. I have not asked the committee for any subpena for Mr. McLaughlin, and shall not do so. The Cuamman. Judge Burch, with reference to your statement, and without either assenting to or dissenting from your conclusion as to whom the testimony affects, directly or indirectly, the chair will say that Mr. Michelet came before the committee, as you recall, and asked permission of the committee to appear in his own behalf, which, of course, was granted. Later Judge Purdy, a lawyer, either of St. Paul or Minneapolis, appeared for Mr. Michelet after the hear- 2113 2114 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ings at Detroit were closed, or, rather, near the conclusion of them. The chairman wired Mr. Michelet that we would have a session in Minneapolis on the following Friday, at which time he could appear and make such statements concerning the investigation as he saw fit. The committee did meet at Minneapolis on Friday mostly, if not entirely, for the purpose of giving him an opportunity to be heard. He did not appear, but his lawyer, Judge Purdy, did appear before the committee, acknowledged receipt of the telegram, and, if my recollection serves me right, he stated that Mr. Michelet was not in the city that day, and he further stated, in substance, that they had followed the newspaper reports of the testimony, and, so far as they had observed, there was nothing that seemed to affect him to such an extent as, in his judgment, made it necessary for him to appear before the committee. I stated to Judge Purdy then that until the hearings were closed the opportunity would still be open for Mr. Michelet to appear before the committee if he saw fit to do so, but that, as we then looked at it, the committee would not attempt to compel him to appear; that there was, as I recalled it, some testi- ‘mony in the record tending to impeach the character of his adminis- ‘tration of the office of agent at White Earth, and that his failure to appear before the committee and explain would form, as I saw it, a proper foundation upon which to base- inferences to his disadvan- tage. Judge Purdy stated, in substance, that they would examine .the reports of the evidence when they came out, and if at any time they thought the record made it necessary he would ask leave to ap- pear before the committee at a later date. That is the condition in which the matter stands now. I suppose that everything the chair stated then with reference to Mr. Michelet would apply with greater or less force to Inspector McLaughlin also, but the chair is not in- -formed as to what opportunity Maj. McLaughlin has had to follow ‘the testimony produced before the committee. The clerk informs ‘me that his name is not on the mailing list to receive the hearings. Is there anything further, Judge Burch? Mr. Burcu. Will it be understood, then, that the matter will be open for him, or will he be advised? I am speaking of Mr. Mc- ‘Laughlin now. . The Cuarrman. He ought to be advised. Mr. Borcu. I think so. The Cuarrman. Of course, until the hearings are closed finally, the matter is open for anyone who has any interest in it to appear -and make such statement as he desires. Mr. Burcu. I respectfully request, then, that the committee do ‘advise, or take measures to advise, Maj. McLaughlin. oe The Cuarrman. Do you know what his address is? Mr. Burcu. Mr. Merritt would know. _ Mr. Merrrrr. I can get it for you from the department. While ‘in the city his address is the National Hotel. .. The Cuairman. The Chair will see that a letter is sent to him in- ‘forming him, in substance, along the same line as the statement made ‘to Mr. Michelet. Do I understand, Judge Burch, that it is your ‘desire that he be required to appear and be examined ? mt Mr. Burcu. No, sir; quite the contrary. I do not think it proper that.one assailed that way should be compelled to testify. WHITE EARTH. RESERVATION. 2115 The Cuarman. The clerk will mail him such of the hearings as are already printed, and a letter will be sént him giving him the op- portunity you suggéest. Is there anything further? Mr. Burcu. Not so far as I am concerned. The Cuairman. Mr. Valentine, you are present, I believe, for the purpose of examination? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF MR. ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OF ¥ INDIAN AFFAIRS, WASHINGTON D. C. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Cuarrman. Please state your full name? Mr. Vatentine. Robert G. Valentine. The Cuarrman. You reside in the city? Mr. Va.entine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. How long have you resided here? Mr. Vatentine. For about 7 years. The Cuarrman. Where did you live prior to coming to Wash- ington? — Mr. Vatentine. In Massachusetts and in New York City. The Cuarrman. I presume that you did have some occupation before coming here—what was it? Mr. Vatentine. After I graduated from Harvard, I taught for three years in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. After that I worked in the National City Bank of New York; after that I was for six or seven months in the accounting department of the Union Pacific Railroad, at Omaha. I returned in the fall of what- ever year that was and taught for three years more in the Massachu- setts Institute of Technology, working summers in the Farmers J.oan & Trust Co., of New York. After that I entered the Indian Service as private secretary, in March, 1905, and my residence in Washington dates from that time. The Cuarmman. In what year did you graduate from Harvard? Mr. Vatentine. In 1896. The CHarrman. In what course? : Mr. Vatentine. Well, the way we have things there, it had no particular designation. The Cuarrman. On the optional plan? ; Mr. Va.entine. Yes, sir; it was what we called the elective stem. vThe Cuairman. And from the university you went to the Massa- chusetts Institute of Technology as a teacher? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. . The Cuamman. Along what line did you work as teacher? Mr. Vatentine. In English literature and English composition. | The Cuarrman. And when you returned there later to teach, did you handle the same studies? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. . The Cuarmman. In what capacity did you act when you were in the banking business? 2116 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I was one of the private secretaries to Mr. James Stillman, president of the National City Bank. The Cuairman. Did that position give you experience in banking, or was it merely of a personal and clerical character ? Mr. Vatentine. It was, of course, chiefly of a personal and clerical character, but it was such in its relation to the general subject of banking that I picked up a good deal of knowledge of banking. one CEsekaN, How long did you serve in that capacity alto- ether ? e Mr. Vatentine. For a little less than two years. The Cuairman. When you entered the Indian service as private secretary, to whom were you secretary ? . Mr. Vatentine. To Hon. Francis E. Leupp, who recently had been appointed commissioner. 6 aes CuHairman. And who was then Commissioner of the Indian ce? Mr. VaALentine. Yes, sir. The Cuaarrman. What time was that? Mr. Vatentine. Do you mean my entrance? The Cuatrman. Yes, sir. Mr. Vatentine. If I recollect it correctly, it was March 10, 1905— it was early in March. The Cuarrman. And that was about the time that he became com- missioner ? Mr. Vatentine. I think he took office on the 1st of January; that is my recollection. The Cuarrman. Of the same year? Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Up to that time had you had any experience in Indian affairs? Mr. Vatentine. None whatever, sir. The Cuarrman. What were your duties as private secretary ? Mr. Varentine. For the first part of the period they were almost entirely stenographic. Mr. Leupp wished me to be able to take dicta- tion. As I had never had any experience in stenography, I had to master it after January, when he first proposed it to me. He said that Congress might give him a secretary, but that it would be neces- sary to learn stenography, so I had to get busy and get myself in shape, and I was in fairly good condition by March, when I took hold of the position. The Cuairman. And your duties, at least at. first, as his private secretary were of a clerical character mostly ? Mr. Vatentine. Entirely so. The Cuatrman. How long did you continue working in that capacity? Mr. Vatentine. I should say, speaking very roughly from mem- ory, from March, when I entered the service, until June of the following year, that my service was devoted exclusively to dictation and running errands in the office, etc. In June I accompanied Mr. Leupp on some of the lettings or purchases of supplies at different cities and acquired some general knowledge of the service through that trip. Then on my return in the fall I was again devoting my- self almost entirely to office work of the kind I did before. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2117 The [EN Had you known Mr. Leupp prior to entering his service ? Mr. Vatentine. I met Mr. Leupp at the Civil Service Reform meeting reception in December, I think it was, before entering the service, which was just after President Roosevelt had offered him the commissionership. The Cuairman. Did you go into his employment at his sugges- tion or at your request ? Mr. Vatentine. That is a rather interesting little story, Mr. Chairman, but I think it is substantially correct, to give a right idea of it, to say that it was at his request. I had prior to that no idea of entering the Indian service, but had decided that I would make a proposition to work for three men whom I had met in Washington, and as a matter of chance I made the first application to Mr. Leupp. In consequence of that I went to work in his news- paper office, writing reports for the Boston Transcript and for the New York Evening Post for the papers to use if they saw fit. It was while engaged in that occupation that Mr. Leupp came to me one day and told be that Congress might give him a secretary and asked me if I would take it, provided I would learn stenography. The Cuarrman. Then, as you have stated, after entering his serv- ice and continuing in it for some months, you accompanied him on a trip to some Indian reservations? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; to the warehouses. We went to New York, Chicago, and, I think, St. Louis, and later on to San Francisco. There we separated, and I went myself to the Umatilla Reservation. T do not think I- met him again until I returned to Washington. Mr. Grorce. Where is the Umatilla Reservation? Mr. Vatentine. In Oregon. The Cuarrman. And that was the first reservation you had visited or seen, was it? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; substantially. I had made the trip to San Francisco, and had seen one or two reservations from the train on the way out. The Cuatrman. And that carried you how far, or rather, how long after your appointment ? Mr. Vatentine. I was on the Umatilla Reservation in July, 1905. That carried us from March to July, 1905. The Cuamman. On your return to Washington, what was the na- tire of your duties from that time on? Mr. Vatentrne. As I think I have already stated, they were sub- stantially the same as they were before. The Cuarrman. Until when? Mr. Vatentine. That was 1905—until next spring, when I took a western trip, going to a number of reservations. In the fall or sum- mer of that year I returned to Washington—that would be the year 1906—and resumed my private secretary duties. About that time I became greatly interested in the organization of the Indian Office, and gave more or less time to that in addition to my particular work. That continued until I was appointed supervisor of Indian schools, which I think must have been in the next year. I think it was in the next year I took the trip—probably in 1907. 2118 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. How long a time did your Indian trip in 1906 cover or occupy ? : Mr. Vatentine. In 1906, I was probably gone somewhere in the neighborhood of three months—I do not remember exactly. The Cuarrman. And you visited what reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. I should have to refresh my mind from the records. I have taken a trip every year, and sometimes twice a year, since I have been in the Indian service, and I am not clear in my mind as to the places I have visited; that is, with reference to the time I visited them. I think, however, I could answer as to any particular reservation you might mention, or if you asked me if I had visited it. The Cuairman. Are you able to tell us anything about the reser- vations you visited on your first trip? Mr. Vatentine. Umatilla Reservation was the only one I visited on that trip. ‘ The Cuarrman. That was the first one you had seen, and that visit was practically incidental to your trip to the warehouses with Mr. Leupp? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; except that I made a very careful study of conditions on that reservation. The Cuairman. For how long a time? Mr. Vatentine. I think I was there three or four weeks. The Crarrman. And my question referred to your next trip, which was made for the purpose and with the view of looking over the reservations themselves. Have you any recollection of the part of the country you visited then, or of any of the reservations at which you called ? Mr. Vatentine. I could easily give you a list of the reservations I went to in each year. I think I went into northwest Minnesota and North Dakota, but I would not be sure whether it was that year or the following year. The Cuarrman. How long a time did you spend on that trip? Mr. Vatentine. In 1906? The Cuairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Vatentine. I think that was about three months. The Cuairman. Was all of that time devoted to the study of Indian conditions? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. You spoke of being in Minnesota. At that time how many reservations were there in Minnesota ? Mr. Vatentine. Speaking from my knowledge now, and assuming the reservations were the same then as now, I think there were Leech Lake, Red Lake, Fond du Lac, White Earth, and, of course, there are little reservations, like a part of the old Leech Lake agency, Cass Lake and Bena. That is all I can recall offhand. The Cuairman. Did you visit any of them? Mr. Vatentine. Either that year or the next year I visited Leech Lake. I think it was that year that I visited Red Lake, Leech Lake,. and the reservations along the Great Northern Railroad. I was at Cass Lake a little while, and went into the woods there, and at an- other time, but whether it was on that trip I do not remember, I was: at the Fond du Lac Reservation. , WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2119 ‘The Cuarrman. Do you remember whether your first visit to the Minnesota reservations was made before or after the adoption of the. Clapp amendment? Mr. Vatentine. The Clapp amendment, as I recollect it, was passed in 1906, and there was another act along the same line in 1907, so my visit to Minnesota, if I recollect correctly, must have been in one of these two years—the same year that the Clapp amendment: was modified or given a different significance. The Cuairman. So your first visit was after it went into effect ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, because, as I recall the Clapp amendment, it referred entirely to the White Earth Reservation. The Cuairman. Were you on that reservation then? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. My first visit to White Earth Reser- vation was made—may I ask Judge Burch a question? The Cuairman. Certainly. Mr. Vatentine. When was Judge Long or Mr. Hinton out there? What was the first year they were at Detroit? Mr. Burcu. Mr. Hinton did not go there until 1910, but Judge Long went there near the close of the year 1909. Mr. Vatentine. That enables me to fix it. It was in the fall of the year 1910 that I first went to White Earth. The Cuarrman. During the year 1906 did you make any visits to the Indian country other than the ones you have stated ? Mr. Vatentine. Do you mean anywhere in the United States? The Cuairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I did; but I would like to supply you with a list of the places I visited each year, as I think I can do. I can not recall just where I was or what years. The Cuarrman. Do you remember how much time you spent actu- ally visiting reservations during that year? Mr. Vatentine. During which year ? The Cuarrman. During 1906. . Mr. Vatentine. As I think I have stated, I think my full trip took about three months that year, and I was in Minnesota probably something like one-fifth of that time. I think it was my first trip in Minnesota that I met Agent Bruce at Cass Lake. I went into the woods with him there for a few days, and then my next point that year was Fort Totten, N. Dak. The Cuarrman. When not visiting reservations, what were your duties at that time? Mr. Varentixe. They were substantially as I have outlined. I was private secretary to Mr. Leupp, and was doing some work in connection with the organization of the Indian Office. The Cnatrman. Explain at greater length the nature of the work you were doing with reference to the organization. ; Mr. Vatentine. I had some experience in banking, in trust com- panies, and in the railroad business as to business organization, and when I entered the Indian Office I thought there was great work to be done there in changing and grinding down the machinery; and gradually, as Mr. Leupp could spare me from my private secretary duties, I made recommendations as to changes in the divisions and changes in the work—for instance, I recommended the installment of the vertical filing system, which we have now. 2120 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. Did your work as private secretary to Mr. Leupp give you anv opportunity to gain practical experience in the work of the Indian Bureau? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, it put me very intimately in touch, through my stenographic work, with the underlying principles of In- dian administration, as Mr. Leupp was working them out, but it did not, of course, give me very much understanding at that time of the details of the working out of those principles. The Cuairman. Were you able to reorganize the office on a differ- ent basis—at least, as to the filing system—with so little practical ex- perience as you then had in the business of the office ? Mr. Varentine. Well, I had had several years of training in out- side husiness where I had come in contact with modern business methods. The Cuarrman. That was mostly in the banking experience you had had? Mr. Vatentrine. Yes, sir; and in trust companies and railroads. The Cuairman. Was the new system of filing based on any ex- perience you had in outside business? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuartrman. In what one? : Mr. Vatentine. Simply my general acquaintance with the files of those offices in which I had worked. Mr. Grorcz. Do you mean by a vertical filing system something like this cabinet over here [indicating] ? : Mr. Vatentine. This looks to me like the old-fashioned system of files. We have this system in which the documents are filed flat like - this [indicating], and put in vertically for easier reference. The incoming letter with a copy of the outgoing letter is arranged like this [indicating], and lies on top, admitting of easy reference. The Cuairman. When did you begin to make changes in the system of filing? Mr. Vatentine. I can not recall the exact date, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. About how long was it after you entered the service ? Mr. Vatentine. I began to talk it, I believe, to some of the clerks probably within a year after I entered the service. The Cuarrman. When were some actual steps taken toward mak- ing the change? Mr. Vatenting. I think no actual steps were taken, beyond some preliminary study, until Mr. Garfield became Secretary of the In- terior. He was very active in installing improvements throughout the department. I do not recollect the year he came in. Mr. Hitch- cock continued, I believe, a little while after Mr. Roosevelt was elected President. It must have been from 1907 to 1909. The Cratrman. It was, probably, from the 5th of March, 1907, but I am not very certain about it. Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Ballinger was Secretary for two years, and Mr. Garfield must have been Secretary from 1907 to 1909. The Cuarrman. Well, no matter about that; it is not important. We can easily ascertain it, anyhow. How long did you continue in the position of private secretary to Mr. Leupp? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 583 Q. Of course all the instructions are in English?—A. Yes, sir; all in English. Q. Are there any of the children who have to learn English after they go to school?—A. Oh, yes; we have several children who have to learn English—the full bloods. Q. How long does it take them to learn?—A. Three or four years. Q. They don’t make much progress until they have learned a little English ?—A. No. . Do the children sometimes induce their parents to learn and speak English?—A. Yes, they do; those that can speak English gen- erally speak English to their children, but the most people there in that neighborhood talk Chippewa. Q. at do the children talk in the homes after thejfleamn English at school?—A. They talk Chippewa mostly, because’ their parents talk Chippewa, you know. Q. Can't you induce your people to encourage the children to talk English in the home as well as at the school?—A. Why, yes. . Don’t you think it would be a great advantage?—A. Why, yes; that is what ne are doing up there. Q. You are a teacher, too?—A. Those that can talk English, they do that, and I encourage them to. Q. What language do you preach in?—A. I preach both. If there is any white people comes to the church, I preach in English; if there is no whites come I preach Chippewa. _Q. Well, now, what proportion of your congregation could under- stand you if you preached in English ?—A. Well, if they were all the young men and girls, there would be about one-third; but they are not there. As soon as they get to be 16 or 18 they take them away, so we have a lot of young people away from the village; but there is oe two-thirds that speaks nothing but Chippewa—the full oods. Q. Have you observed, Mr. Porter, what becomes of the children who graduate in the local school and go to a boarding school away from White Earth? Have you observed whether they come back to live on the reservation ?7—A.. Well, what I know of the young people going to this boarding school, they come back not knowing much. Q. Not knowing much?—A. They don’t like to work much; but those that are on the reservation they are learned by the parents to work and they are industrious, and they will go on and do the work without grumbling; but those who go off to the boarding schools come back nothing but vagabonds; they don’t want to do nothing. Mr. Georce. They work around the house? The Witness. They won’t do nothing around the house. Of course there is an exception once in awhile. Q. What becomes of them ?—A. Well, I don’t know. Q. Do they remain on the reservation or do they finally leave?—A. Yes; they remain for awhile and finally go off; most of them go off to the baseball games and other amusements mostly. I don’t see none of them take hold of the farms. ; : : Q. Well, Bender, the famous pitcher, is a White Earth Indian, isn’t he?—A. Yes. . Q. It paid him to go away?—A. Yes, it did. If they do all like that it would be all right. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 1——39 584 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. You are very proud of him, aren’t you?—A. Well, I guess they do. Q. What is your honest judgment about it? Were it better for those children not to go to the boarding school at all?—A. Well, I should say that is my best judgment. It is a great deal better for the children to stay at home and have the schools on the reservation. Q. What would you do after they che eine to school; would you keep them right on the reservation ?—A. The parents have better con- trol; they could handle them better; they like to work and do some- thing—— Q. Just a question there. Is it for the best interest of the child that the parent, who is not very highly civilized in some instances, should have control of the child ? ould it not be better for the child if he broke away and went out among strangers?—A. Yes, if the par- ents could not talk English, nor didn’t learn them to work; if they were lazy; yes, it would be better for the child to go away. But where the parents are industrious, and wants to do something, it is a reat deal better for them to stay on the reservation; they learn Faster and learn more, but there in our village a great many of those children never went to the boarding school; they are there, and they are industrious; they want to do something for themselves, more so than those others that has been off. Q. What changes do you think should be made in the dealings with the White Earth people ?—A. I think, for one thing, if the Govern- ment would take hold and put up some schools, industrial schools, on the reservation, would be the best thing that ever happened; right there on the reservation. Q. But your thought is that the boys and girls educated there should be Lent on the White Earth Reservation all the time?—A. Yes, kept on the reservation, and they would work and learn—they would amount to something. Q. Do you think of any other changes you think ought to be made in the management of the reservation?—A. Yes, I think there should be. Q. What else?—A. I think that if the Government would go to work and break up some lands for those Indians and learn them to farm, a great many of the old people would take hold and work for themselves, and could do lots of work in the garden, and it would help the people, but the way they are now they don’t do nothing; they don’t farm; they are starving now to-day; they have nothing; no gardens at all; if the Government would break up a little land for these people and help them in that way—they have built a good many houses for these Indians, but there is no teams for them to break the land with and they have nothing to do anything with; they are there and got nothing to work with. If they would break up a little land for them, two or three acres even, for the old people, and more for the others—men folks—they would stay there and attend to their farms and do something. Q. What about them having horses and plows and things to do the work?—A. That is what they ought to have. The Indian can not take care of horses and stock like that as well as the whites. Q. Why can’t he?—A. He is not used to it. : Q. Is he lazy ?—A. Some of them are; some are industrious, all rig! . WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 585 _Q. What one have you to make as to how to cure that disease ?—A. That is the only way, I think—to break some land for them and help them in that way. There is a lot of people there to-day 20 or 18 miles from any place, and they have no teams to go to get their ‘supplies with or to haul wood with; they are there barehanded; can’t do nothing. Q. Did they ever have teams?—A. They had some teams there at one time ? Q. How did they lose them?—A. The horses died on them mostly. Mr. Grorce. Through disease or neglect ? The Witness. They were all bronchos and they never was broke. The Indian he takes his bronchos and hitches them onto a wagon, and to break the bronchos he runs them to death; that is about the way he does. Mr. Grorce. Did he break the bronchos or the wagon? The Witness. Ha, ha! He broke the bronchos. Q. Where did those bronchos come from?—A. Well, they are worse than horses; those that come there isn’t for the Indians. Mr. Georce. The Indian naturally knew how to take care of a horse before the white man. The Witness. The Indian likes to take care of a horse all right. Mr. PowEtu. The Sioux did, but not the Chippewa.—A. Well, where I come from, east of here, and different places, I saw the Indians could take care of their horses. I don’t know how it hap- pened that these horses died off. J think that is the way—lI seen a great many drove them to death to break it. Finally the Govern- ment don’t issue any more teams for them. Q. That is probably the best way to break a broncho. Where did you live, Mr. Porter, at your earliest recollection ?—A. I was born in Taylors Falls, Minn. My folks moved from there to a place called Pine City now, Pine County, 75 miles north of St. Paul, and I was raised there. Q. Do you give any special attention to the history of your Indian ancestors ?—A. No; I haven't. Q. You don’t know any more about them than the rest of us, do you?—A. No. Q. Haven’t you Indian traditions? Where were you educated ?— A. I was not educated. I went to school a couple of months—all the schooling ever I got. Q. Where?—A. Pine City, Pine County. Q. Have you been an extensive reader and student ?—A. No; I. haven’t. ; Q. Well, you have studied the San eae carefully, of course ?—A. What I have learned I learned myself by studying the Scriptures. Q. Are you an ordained minister ?—A. Yes. Q. You have very little instruction except——A. Just what I picked up myself. : : Q. We are obliged to you, Mr. Porter, for your information. Examined by Mr. Burcu: Q. I desire to turn your attention to the 24th day of April, 1905, when the so-called additional allotments were made at White Harth; where were you living at that time ?—A. I was living at Duane. Q. How much earlier than that date did you get notice that allot- ments were going to be made? When did you first hear about them ? 586 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. About how long before?—A. I think it was a month or two, was all. I heard there was going to be allotments. Q. Did you go there to the agency at White Earth on that occa- sion?—A. Yes; I did. ; Q. How much before that Monday morning did you go? How long were you there before Monday morning ?—A. I was there from— I started from Duane Monday morning. Q. You didn’t get there A. About noon when I got there. Q. You got to the agency about noon?—A. About noon. — Q. How long did you stay after that ?—A. I stayed over night and went away the next day. : Q. Where there many people of the full or mixed blood there when you arrived?—A. Yes; there was a great many people there. Q. What was the situation they were in, in respect to allotment; were they in line?—A. Yes; when I got there they were in line. Q. Was there any disturbance at that time, or was everything quiet ?—A. Yes; there was disturbance. It begun just about -the time I got there. j Q. Now, Mr. Porter, you know more about it than I; you are intel- ligent; tell these gentlemen all that you can think of that happened within your sight, or your hearing, while you were there. In your own way give them a full account.—A. When I got there I seen a line from the office right down to the road and down the sidewalk—that would be south of the office; that line was all mixed bloods. Mr. Gzorcse. How many? The Witness. Oh, there might have been 150, somewhere along there; there might have been more. Q. What about the others?—A. Well, right up the hill a little ways there was a group of full bloods holding a little council. Q. Did you go there?—A. Yes; I went over and listened. Q. It was a council?—A. Yes; they were having a council just outside. Q. Tell us what they did and what they said—A. There were sev- eral full bloods objected to allotting that way, to take their allotments, on the ground that the Indians said what I heard, that they don’t know anything about the lines, and didn’t know anything about the minutes, and they didn’t know what to do. Q. Did any officer of the agency, or other officer, attempt to ex- nlain?—A. There was nobody there just then; they were all on the ine. Q. I mean the officers or agent, or anyone, attempt to explain or tell them about what to do or how todo? Did the agent, Mr. Michelet, or any other officer of the agency or of the Government, attempt to tell a full bloods what to do or how to do it?—A. I was going to get there. Q. All right; excuse me; go ahead.—A. The Indians said that they wasn’t going to get fair play; that the mixed bloods would get all the timber, and they wouldn’t get any, and that was the reason they hold the council; and then pretty soon some one hollered from the office and said they should form in a line. Well, it was the chief of police came to the fence from out of the office, and hollered to the ones that were in line. He said, “You men break the line and go across the road and make a new line. Then let the Indians make another line on the north side. Let the Indians and half-breeds WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 587 come into the office together to file.” But the line was never broken, so the Indians they started a line on the north side. Q. The full-blood Indians?—A. The full-blood Indians. And when they heard the word that the Indian should go in with the half- breeds, two by two, half-breed and full blood; when they heard that they thought there would be some show, so they joined in. So that is the way they went in, two by two; a half-breed would take an Indian by the arm and walk into the office and file. That is the way it went on that day. Q. Now, listen; so far as you know, did the full bloods have any minutes of the pine, any data, anything to select by? Did they have descriptions of the pine, the full. bloods?—A. No, they don’t know nothing, and they don’t have any minutes. There might have been a few had minutes. Q. Mr. Porter, at any time before the so-called allotment, was there any measures, that you know of, taken by Agent Michelet, or any official, to place before the Indians any print, or any writing, or by word of mouth, where the pine was, what the estimates were of the different section descriptions of land?—A. I didn’t see any. Q. Did you hear of any such ?—A. I didn’t hear of any. Q. Was there any measures that you know of taken to make these Indians intelligent as to their rights; that is, to inform them of their rights to an equal chance in the pine and other land? I mean before- hand.—A. No, I didn’t hear anything. an You, yourself, didn’t obtain anything of that kind?—A. No, I idn’t Q. Did you go there prepared with any minutes as to the pine ?— A. No, sir; I don’t have any minutes. Q. Did you know of any pine yourself ?—A. Yes, I did, because I had been out on the timber and seen the pine. Q. Of your own knowledge you knew ?—A. Yes. Q. Did you get any of it?—A. No; I got a very little. Q. Why, somebody else have it? How soon did you get any ?— A. Well, I didn’t get any land until about a month or two after that. Q. You didn’t stay to complete the drawing ?—A. No; I went away the next morning. Q. What did the full-bloods say after they got out? Did you hear any complaint ?—A. Well, it was so long after that that I heard those complaints among the Indians, that they didn’t get their share; didn’t get any pine. Q. Did you see, yourself, into the agency what was going on? When they went in could you see inside what was going on t—A. No; I couldn’t see from the outside. Q. Do you know who were in there?—A. No; all I know was Mr. Michelet was in there and Mr. Perrault. Q. Was that this Joe or James M. Perrault ?—A. Joe. Q. Joe M. Perrault ?—A. Yes; and then I think there was two or three clerks in there. . Q. Any of the Beaulieus?—A. No, I didn’t see any of them; I see some on the line. Q. You couldn’t see the inside. Well, now, go on and tell what they did while you were there, and what was ‘said, of your own knowledge—I interrupted you.—A. Well, I got disgusted myself and for thut reason I went away when I see the way the thing was going , 588 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. on; that the Indian was not going to get fair play ; that the mixed bloods were all going to get the pine, so I didn’t bother to get any; I thought I would go home and attend to my busi- ness. Yes, I have seen Michelet out of the window; he come out through the window and he Healey Mush-she-ke-ge-shig and took a little girl and said they should go in two by two and take their land. Q. You saw that?—A. Yes, I saw that; and then Mrs. Lynch, I think, was the next one and some Indian took her. She took an Indian and went in. That is all Iseen ofthat. That is the way they started, and they kept on going in. I stayed outside and see them going in two by two to get their allotments. The Indians didn’t have any minutes; he didn’t know nothing what he was going to get. Q. Did the others get their minutes?—A. Yes, the half-breeds. Q. Do you know that?—A. Yes; I know that. Q. State to the committee how you know it.—A. I have seen the minutes in their hands. Q. You did?—A. There was a few—there was some mixed bloods there selling the minutes. Of course, I didn’t see that myself, but I heard so. Q. State what you heard and who you heard it from, so we can et at it. Who did you hear was selling minutes, Mr. Porter ?—A. y, it slipped my mind. I can not name those who told me. Of course, at that time I didn’t pay no attention about it. Q. Who did you hear was selling the minutes?—A. One of them was Aleck MacKenzie. I understand he was selling minutes; and then others was selling minutes the same way, but of course I didn’t inquire and didn’t find out who they were. . What kind of papers did they hold in their hands with those minutes? Did they have slips of papers with those minutes ?—A. They had them in their pockets with the minutes; such a section and such a town and range. Q. And the amount of the timber?—A. No; I don’t think the amount was on. I didn’t see any. Q. Did you see any of those minutes in the hands of the full bloods? . Did any of the full bloods have any such?—A. I didn’t see any at all. I didn’t see one full blood have any minutes. Q. Did you see who had furnished them the minutes, whether they had come from an outside source or the agency ?—A. Well, Mr. Michelet nae them to get their lands. He pointed out to them where to take their allotments when they came in there. They didn’t have any minutes; that is what I heard. Q. These were the full bloods?—A. Yes, the full bloods. Q. Did you hear any complaint from those full bloods, afterwards, that they did not get good descriptions?—A. Yes; there was a lot of them said they didn’t get good timber; they got a lot of stumps. Q. These were the same ones that he had pointed out?—A. I don’t know which ones he pointed out to at all. The Cuarrman. Have on any personal knowledge about the mat- ter? Did rou see yourself that the mixed bloods had the descriptions and the full bloods did not have them? The Wrrness. Yes, sir; I seen the descriptions that the mixed bloods had, and I didn’t see any of the Indians who had any. I asked several if they had any minutes, and they said they didn’t have any. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 589 The Cuarrman. Where were you ? The Witness. Well, I was standing out there; I only stayed a couple of hours; I didn’t stay longer. G. What effort, if any, did you make to find out whether the full bloods did have or didn’t have minutes?—A. Well, I asked several about it, and they said they didn’t have no minutes. Examined by the Coarrman: Q. From the inquiries you made and from the knowledge that you got there, ae able to say whether the full bloods had minutes or not?—A. Well, the way that I know, those that I spoke to, I asked them for minutes, but they didn’t have any. Q. How many did you speak to?—A. Four or five at that time. Q. Full bloods?—A. Yes. Q. And you say you walked along the same place to see if they had minutes? Did you walk along the whole line, or only a part of it? I want to get at the extent of the investigations which you made. A. The line that they formed there——. Q. The full-blood line+—A. Yes; the full-blood line was not very long. 6. Give us a better idea of how much inquiry you made there; as to whether the full bloods had any descriptions or minutes of the land.—A. Well, I asked, I don’t know how many, four or five; they said they didn’t have any. That is all I could see. Examined by Mr. Burcu: Q. Afterwards did you ask some of them ?—A. Well, that has been the general talk all around, that they don’t have any minutes at all; that they didn’t get the pine that they ought to get. Mr. GEorGE. at are the minutes like—piece of paper ? The Witness. Yes. Mr. Burcu. About this size [indicating]? eae Witness. Yes; some about half size, with the descriptions on them. Mr. Grorce. Printed description ? The Wrrness, No; written with pencil. Q. Where did they get those minutes?—A. They go out themselves and look up the land and take the minutes where the timber stood. When they got to a section they would go in there and look it over and see the timber. All these sections were not all timber; part of it was timber, part hardwood and part prairie land; the timber did not stand all in a solid grove. They had to go in there and run the lines out and get descriptions of land where the timber stood; that is the way they get the timber. . 0. Whe would give them the minutes?—A. The mixed bloods themselves got the minutes and went out there. They are capable of ing lines and know the section corner when they get to it and pick out the land; but an Indian who don’t know anything about a corner he couldn’t read the corner, nor the section nor the town; why, the Indian fairly gave up when the rest was up there running out lines. Q. But the full blood did not know how to get this information ?— A. No. Q. He would be depending on the agency?—A. I suppose. I don’t know what they depend on; a great many of them thought it would not be allotted at all—that it was only talk. That was what 590 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. I believed at the time; I didn’t take any stock in it at the time; I only had three or four days’ notice that they were going to allot. . Three or four days?—A. If J had known they were going to allot land I would help the Indian, because I would have gotten them the numbers and given them the numbers; I know a lot of timber there, because Mr. Michelet sent me out to estimate the dead and down timber and I know where it stood. I could help the Indian out a great deal at times; but I didn’t have no time at all. Examined by Mr. Burcu:} Q. You were there; that is, at the very beginning of the actual allotment; they had not begun to allot until about noon?—A. They began to allot about an hour or two after I got there. Q. And you stayed during the remainder of that day and part of the next day ?—A. Yes. Q. You being a mixed blood,, would not have had a very good lace in the line, coming there that late?—A. There was no show. t could see there was no show; if I would join the line I had to go down 200 yards at the end of the line until my number would come in, and I would have to wait a week or two before I would get up to the office; so I went home. Q. Now, you say that two or three weeks after that you did make application ’—A. Yes; it was later than that. Q. Moai when did you make your application?—A. I don’t think I entered my land until a month or a month and a half later. Q. How were you able to get the minutes of unplatted land at that late day? How did you get your minutes of the allotment that you finally took? Where did you get it?~A. I went and looked it up. Q. ‘You mean in the office?—A. No; not in the office. Q. How many descriptions did you have when you went in to make your application ?—A. I had mine and I had my wife’s and I had my boy’s and my girl’s. I had four allotment descriptions I wanted to take. Q. You had just simply four descriptions?—A. That is all. Q. How did you know it had not all been taken’?—A. Well, I was to the office and seen that it was vacant. Q. Then you went to the office and found what was yet untaken, me Pay looked up these descriptions yourself and selected the four ?— . Yes. Q. Did you get any timber on them?—A. I got a little, Q. About how much?—A. About 60,000 on my 80. Q. How many on your wife’s’—A. She got about 25,000. Q. And your son?—A. My son got about 55,000. Q. And your daughter?—A. She got about twenty-five or thirty thousand. Q. In the aggregate you got on that half sectlon—approximately a half section, four eighties—you got in the neighborbood of 200,000 #—- A. Yes; somewhere along there. Q. How much was there, for instance, on Margaret Lynch’s allot- ment—that little girl that Mush-she-he-gi-shig took in?—A. I never looked over that. _Q. You know she got $19,000 for it?—A. I never looked over the timber. I never been in that place where she took her allotment. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 591 Q. There were descriptions there that sold at very high prices, from $19,000 down ?—A. Yes; claims sold there from fifteen, sixteen, eighteefl, nineteen. Q. Did you hear of any such—of these valuable descriptions in the hands of any full-bloods, except that one he calls Wah-we-yea- cumig? Did you hear of any of these big descriptions in the hands of any full-bloods?—A. Yes, I believe there is one—I don’t know who—he had a million or two hundred thousand on his land were valuable—that I know of; and that was all. Q. Did you attend the council? You heard of a council being held by one McLaughlin afterwards’—A. I heard of it. Q. Did you attend it?—A. No, I didn’t. Q. You were not there?—A. No; I wasn’t there. Q. Did you get any notice?—A. No; I didn’t get any notice; I didn’t know anything about“it; I heard of it after it was over. Q. You were preaching at that time?’—A. Yes, sir. Q. How many people would you have outside of your church and in your church, around in your vicinity there—about how many ?— A. Three hundred; somewhere along there. Q. Three hundred; and you never heard of this council among the whole 300?—A. No. Q. This was quite a council, was it not?—A. There was nobody heard of that council at all until afterwards. Q. Until after it was over?—A. Yes. Q. Then you had no opportunity to attend it?—A. No, sir. Q. Did you hear how it resulted ?—A. No, I°didn’t. Q. You did not?—A. No. Q. Were you at that time constantly circulating around among our people and acquaintances in such a way that you would have een liable to hear of it?—A. Why, yes. Q. Have you ever been in any other neighborhood on the reserva- tion there and heard the subject of the notice to attend that council talked about *—A. The McLaughlin? Q. Yes.—A. No. Q. You simply know your own locality? Not desiring to have you assume anything, are you considered what might be termed a repre- sentative or leading man among your,300 acquaintances there *—A. Yes, I am. Q. Do you attend, Mr. Porter, the annual White Earth celebra- tions*—A. Yes, last year. Q. Do you generally attend?’—A. Yes, I do. : Q. Were you there on the 14th of June and following dates last year?—A. Yes, I was there. By Mr. GrorceE: Q. What is this celebration—I will leave him to explain how that celebration is held—it is held annually by assistance; that is, moneyed assistance from the Indian office, annually on the 14th of June each ear, for the purpose of celebrating the election of the location of the White Earth Reservation, is it not?—A. Yes. I know for the last two years the Government has kept it up; before that I don’t know. Q: Well, they hold it in honor of the establishment of the White Earth Reservation 42 years ago?—A. Yes ; Q. Explain to the committee how large a concourse is usually there; how many people?—A. Including everybody ? 592 WHITE BARTH RESERVATION, Q. Yes.—A. Well, there must be three or four thousand. Q. It lasts several ‘days?—A. Most generally it lasts about four days. . 0. They have speeches?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Games?*’—A Yes, sir. Q. Indian dances?—A. Yes; and other amusements. _ Q. The Indian police took charge of it; that is a supervisor to keep order ?—A. Yes, they have to ee order most generally; they have a man appointed to take charge of it, but the policeman is put there. Q. The Indians have a committee of their own in addition to the supervision of the officers?—A. Yes, sir. 0. They invite their brethren, the Sioux, from the West to come there and join with them?—A. Yes, they do. ; Q. And part of their ceremony is the celebration of the peace- making between the Sioux and Chippewas of the end of their war ?— A. Yes. Q. Do they invite the Sioux to make speeches with them ?—A. Yes; they do. Q. And they go there; a ceremony of peacemaking, burying the hatchet, smoking the pipe of Pe every time ?—A. Yes. Q. You were present there last year at that time?—A. Yes; I was. Q. On the second day of the celebration do you remember of a heated occurrence in the ring, where the dances were held, between some of the Indians? You were present?—A. Yes; I did; I seen that; I was there outside. Ow Mr. Porter, you know a paper called the Tomahawk !— A. Yes; Ido. Q. Do you ever read it?—A. Yes; I have. Q. Did you see, prior to that last year’s occurrence, for two weeks, a call for the council at White Earth, unsigned but published in that paper? Did you see for two weeks previous to the celebration—— x Well, I seen it, but I don’t remember just how it was. .- Did Si see the agent’s name or anybody’s name signed to it ?— A. - ; [seen several names in the paper, but I didn’t see the names signed toit. . Q. Now, on the 14th of the month did you hear of any—that is the first day—of any council being held? Bid you hear of any council being held there?—A. Any council held there on the 14th? No; there was no council. Q. Now, on the 15th, the next day, did you hear of any council being held there?—A. No, I didn’t hear any. Q. Did you hear of any attempt being made to hold a council; did you hear there was an attempt made? Were you present to hear ?— A. I seen them when they started to go and hold the council. Q. Describe what you saw, and who you saw go to try to hold the council.—A. Well, I seen Mr. Carl there, and i seen Mr. Beaulieu there, and I seen a man there by the name of Morrison, and then I seen some others, but I can’t recollect their names. Q. About how many?—A. There must have been six or seven cpt from the ring; inside of the ring where the Indians were ancing. ‘i Q. They came from somewhere else ?—A. They came there to the ance. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 593 The CHarrMaNn. I suppose, Mr. Porter—Do you mean Mr. Carl and Mr. Beaulieu who are present here now? The Witness. Yes. recy CHAIRMAN. It seems there are a great many Beaulieus up there ¢ The Witness. They were there that day; they come in there and wanted to hold a council. This Mr. Carl said they had a paper they wanted to read, and so the Indians they listened and saad all right; and they read the letter; and then they wanted to hold the council and the Indians would not hear to it; wouldn’t have a council; they said it isn’t time to hold a council when we are celebrating, and we are going to have ourfun. They quarreled a little about it in there, and when they didn’t make it a success to hold the council, they started through the ring and said they would hold a council over across the Jake at the village. Q. How many were there in that crowd?—A. Six or seven were over there that I see; there might have been more, I don’t know. Q. Did you hear of it in Beers’s blacksmith shop?—A. That is what I heard. Q. What became of the rest of the Indians?—A. They stayed there and had their fun. Q. Do the Indians have a ceremony they call “dinning out” or “drumming out” people whom they don’t want to hear in the council ?—A. Oh, yes; I understand what you mean now. If they ee t want to hear the party they generally strike their drum and go right on. Q. Did they do that then?—A. That is what they did that day. Q. Is that considered in the Indian council a disgrace?—A. That is what it is. Q. After that may an Indian presume ever to speak in council again, after he is subjected to that treatment ?—A. Well, he shouldn’t but he does sometimes in spite of that. Q. But according to the ethics or the rules of the Indian, a man is ik resumed ever to speak again who receives that treatment ?— . Yes. The CHarrMAN. What is that? Mr. Burcu. There are 10 or 12 men sitting around a big bass drum, with sticks making the Indian music; they were at this time, anyhow, and they do generally have such a drum, I believe, at an Indian council, and if one becomes obnoxious or unwelcome or any- thing of that kind in his remarks this “dinning-out” process is a striking and drumming and drowning of his voice, practically ex- pelling him. The Wirness. We used to call it “knocking them out.” Q. And by Indian custom they are not supposed ever, if they are mindful of the customs of the Indian, to lift up their voices again in Indian council ? Mr. Grorce. It must be humiliating. The Cuarrman. Is that the way you understand the custom, Mr. Porter, as Judge Burch described it? The Witness. Yes, sir. ; : Q. Now, Mr. Porter, how many Indians were there, probably, in that ring at the time this occurred ?—A. Oh, there must have been a 594 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. couple of hundred Indians; that is, the dancers; that is, inside the ring; but there was lots of people outside of the ring. Mr. Beautiev. I would like to have Mr. Burch not suggest the questions to the witness. There was no such scene. Mr. Cart. That is not a word in the Indian language; there is no such thing as ‘‘drumming out.’ The CuarnMAN. You will have your chance to show that the testimony is not what it should be, but you must wait your time. A. I used to be a dancer myself before I became a converted man; I used to dance with the Indians, and if there was a man got up and made any trouble in the ring, or disturbance, the drummers would strike the drum and would not listen to him, as much as to say, it is not worth while to listen to him; they would go right on with the dance and he has to stop. That is customary where I come from. Q. Now, Mr. Porter, we will proceed: You say two or three hundred were in that ring, of the dancers, and a considerable number outside?—A. Yes; there was a big number outside; whites and mixed bloods. Q. Did you hear, outside of this bunch of six or seven that you saw, any complaint or dissatisfaction among the other Indians about their expulsion on that occasion? Did anybody else find fault that they were driven out that you heard of ?—A. No. Q. There was no outcry in the defense of these six or seven—Beau- lieu, Carl, and the others?—A. No, sir; I didn’t hear. Q. The dance went along the same as it did before?—A. They danced there for a day or two afterwards. Q. Can you tell us who are the representative men of the White Earth Reservation, in their several different localities wherever they congregated, wherever they come together on the White Earth Res- ervation? Can you tell the names of representative men there, from your knowledge of the reservation and its affairs?—A. For the whole reservation, the whole tribe ? Q. Yes. Can you give us an idea who are the representative men ?—A. Do you mean the full bloods? ; Q. No; I mean all. Take the neighborhood, not full bloods or mixed bloods, but the neighborhood, or the congregations around there, and name the representative men of the tribe. For instance, in your own neighborhood of 300 or thereabouts, you considér your- self a representative man?—A. Yes. Q. Can you go around the Indian schools at Pine Point or any of these other places and tell the committee who are representative men there—the leading men?—A. There are lots try to be leading men on the reservation. I don’t know. It is hard to take them. Q. Well, is there a place called Pine Point ?—A. Yes. Q. Do Indians congregate at Pine Point a good deal?—A. Yes. Q. Is there a good school there?—A. Yes; there is a Government school there, a church there, a couple of churches there, I guess. Q. Who are the representative men, the leading men, you might say, around Pine Point, if you know; if you don’t, all right?—A. I don’t know their names. know one Indian by the name of Bis- sette; he is a full blood, supposed to be leading. Q. Is that Jim Bissette?—A. Yes. There is a little short Indian there; he is a chief; I don’t know his name. I can not call his name. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 595 ii .* How about Elbow Lake? Do you know about Elbow Lake ?— . Yes. Q. That is a congregating point?—A. Yes. Q. Who are the leading men at Elbow Lake?—A. There is one there—just that one chief. Q. at is his name ?—A. Wah-we-yea-cumig. Q. Is that the Mille Lacs man?—A. That is the Mille Lacs man. Q. How about Beaulie? Is there a congregation there?—A. Yes. Q. And who are the leading, representative men there?—A. The men that I know that is leading, looked upon as leading—there is Mush-she-ke-ge-shig, and Shegan, and another chief by the name of Pe-dos-e-gay, and another one—I can’t think of his name now. He is an Indian full blood. Q. Well, now, have you ever known, during your time on this reservation, of a regular Indian council, on that whole reservation, called by the Indian superintendent, and attended by therepresenta- tive men, or principal voters, in council? Have you ever known of such a thing since you have been there?—A. I have never known one; that is, let me see, I believe Mr. Howard did call a council there one time. I think he did. I think he did+call a council—a regular council. And I think they held that council at Pine Point, but the Indians did not act all together; that is, the majority of the Indians did not get all together, but I have never known any other council there on the reservation, where the Indians would get all together to call it a general council. I never did. Q. Do you know Gus H. Beaulieu and John Carl?—A. Yes, I do. Q. Did you ever hear that they were named as representatives of the White Earth Indians; that is, before this time?—A. In the Indian tribe ? Q. Yes.—A. No, sir; I never did. Q. From what you know, and according to your best judgment, do you think they could be named as such by the Indians im general council ?—A. No, sir; I don’t think so, what I know ofthem. Iknow I would not. Q. Do you know that they have had a certain number of people within their call around about White Earth for some time past +— A. Yes Q. About how many persons would you think that would embrace— the number that they associate with or represent ?—A. The number they associate with is about, maybe fifteen or twenty outside. — 0. Have you ever known of their assuming to act in Washington and elsewhere as representatives of the tribe?—A. Not by the Indians. . Q. You have heard of their assuming ?—A. I have heard that they are acting that; yes. : Q. That they purported to hold councils. Have you heard that they claimed to have held councils, and been elected to represent the tribe, etc.?—A. Yes, I heard that, but the majority of the Indians on the reservation don’t know anything about it. . Q. Do you know, Mr. Porter, whether or not the Indian agent, Simon Michelet, at that time had, at the time of this additional allot- ment, full estimates of the pine on the reservation? Made at the expense of the Government? Do you know whether he did or not +— A. I don’t know. 596 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q. You got estimates there two or three weeks later, didn’t you ?— A. What is that ? aie Q. Didn’t you get estimates on these descriptions there two or three weeks later, or whenever you took your allorment?—A. No, no; I didn’t. I didn’t say that. I called there and found the land was taken, and I took the land and estimated the timber myself. Q. Did you ever hear on the reservation-—that is, had you ever heard, up to the time of the additional allotment of Easter Monday, 1905, that the Government had full estimates of this pine in the office, in the hands of Mr. Michelet, prepared at Government expense? Did you hear that? Did you know it was there?—A. No, gir; I did not. Q. Did you ever hear any other Indians say that such was the fact ?—A. No, sir. Q. Do you think the Indians knew of any such thing?—A. I don’t think they did. That is the first I heard of it. I never heard any- thing of it. Q. This is the first you knew of it?—A. Yes. Examined by Mr. Groree. Q. Did the Indians want pine lands?—A. Why, yes; they did at that time; they wanted pine. Q. Well, if there was to be a distribution of this land, why didn’ they make some preparation to get pine land?—A. Well, I don’t know. Of course there was a good many like me; they didn’t think about it; didn’t think it was coming. Q. They didn’t believe there was to be any such allotment }—A. A they didn’t know. I never heard anything about it among the ndians. Q. Didn’t the agent tell the Indians?—A. I didn’t know until along pretty late. I think the agent, of course, must have told the Indians they were going to be allotted, all right. Q. But he didn’t help them to any information about the pine lands?—A. Well, no, I don’t think he did, only as I said, he allotted them when they came in the office. Q. And they felt that the lands they got were not pine lands ?—A. That is what they said afterwards. Of course Mr. Michelet was in the office; he never bsen out to see the timber; he didn’t know—he knowed where the timber was in the township, but he didn’t know just what description the timber stood on, what section—I say, Mr. Michelet, when he allotted those Indians, he never been out there to run the lines out, to look where this timber was that he was going to give the Indians. It was all guesswork; it is like me sitting here, a lot of timber out there in five or six townships, and guess at this timber there; somebody has told me there is some timber there, and I sit here and tell anybody: “ Here, you take this pine; this is pine.” It might’ be somewheres without a stick of pine on it. That is the way it went. }. That is your view of the matter?—A. Yes; I never knew Michelet to estimate the timber or the land, or even where the timber stood, unless he got the information from some one else. 2 You think he had no information?—A. I don’t know. I can not say. Q. And the Indians didn’t know of any information that he had ?— A. No. Well, all they knowed, they told me. They said, when they went in the office without any minutes, Michelet says, ‘ ‘I will locate WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2137 Oklahoma. Of course, the Five Civilized Tribes—the Choctaws, Chickasaws, Cherokees, Creeks, and Seminoles—would come well up in the front of the list. I am necessarily going a little bit around the country. The Fort Apache and San Carlos ‘Reservations in Arizona. Of course, Mr. Chairman, those reservations are big both in problems and in size. Then, of course, there are smaller reserva- tions that are not so large in size but big in problems. The Cuairman. And by “problems” you mean the difficulty in handling them and the trouble which the bureau has with them? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; notably among that class will be found the Red Lake Reservation in Minnesota, the McDowell Reservation, with which you are familiar. The Cuairman. In Arizona? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. In the balance of the list would come pretty nearly all the rest, because the fact is that there is no reserva- tion in the country that does not need very careful study and does not present very grave problems. The Cuairman. To what extent are the problems presented by the different reservations alike or unlike? Mr. Vatentine. They are alike, of course, as to fundamental ques- tions affecting the life of the family—that is, what constitutes a self-developing Indian family along lines of health and indus- try—but they are different in that on one reservation the problem of health is quite different from another. For instance, you have seen the terrible effects of trachoma at White Earth, and there are equally terrible effects of trachoma in the Southwest, but in the in- tervening reservations that particular scourge is not apparently in existence. One reservation has tuberculosis and another has merely matters of general sanitation. As to the industrial side, the Indians of the far Northwest still get a good deal of their food from the fisheries. while in Montana fhe Indians are very largely cattle raisers. Mr. Georce. Do you mean fish that they catch themselves? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. In the Southwest the Indians irrigated probably before Columbus landed in this country, and have been old- time farmers. ° Mr. Grorce. That comes from Aztec times? Mr. Vatentine. Probably. Mr. Grorcz. Would you call them Aztec Indians? Mr. Vatentine. No; they are not supposed to be of the Aztec stock. Mr. Georcz. Toltecs? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. ; . Mr. Georce. At any rate, it has come down from ancient times? Mr. Vatentine. From prehistoric times; yes, sir. Then in many parts of the country the Indians are industrially very closely wrapped up in timber, as at White Earth, which is very vividly before you; Leech Lake and Red Lake; in the far Northwest, the Quinaliet Reservation; and in the Southwest there is some wonderful timber on the Fort Apache Reservation and the San Carlos Reservation. And then in Oklahoma we have not only difficulties on top of the ground, but very valuable things under the ground, such as oil, gas, and coal. So that the industrial pursuits of the Indians, if properly handled, would be quite varied, as you see. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-8, vol 2——40 21388 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Gerorcr. You spoke about civilized Indians. There are no uncivilized Indians now, are there? Mr. Vatentrine. I think so; yes. Mr. Grorcr. What you would call uncivilized Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Of course it depends a good deal upon what one calls civilized; I think some are far superior to our own so-called civilization. But I suppose it would be fair to say that a certain part of the Utah Indians on the Uintah Reservation are not civilized in the sense that they have made any real breakaway from their old customs, which now, unfortunately, they no longer can follew in the way of a livelihood, and have not adapted themselves to our so-called civilization. Mr. Grorcr. Have they no schools? Mr. Vatentine. Oh, there are schools, but their industrial progress is almost nil. Mr. Georcr. Are they still hunters? Mr. Vatentine. Of course the big game has almost disappeared, but they would still like to be hunters. Mr. Georce. Are there any other prominent tribes still in that condition ? Mr. Vatentinz. There are none uncivilized in the sense that the Indians are on the warpath or in that way, but there are a number on the Navajo Reservation who are still living almost as they did 50, 60, or 100 years ago. Mr. Grorcr. As to their habits, clothes, and food? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. I suppose, for example, that if we were to have war to-morrow with England and Japan, which would practi- cally shut up our coastline, the Navajo Indians would come nearer to being absolutely unaffected by the war than any other people of the United States, because they raise their own crops, from which they get both food and clothing, and have their little cornfields; they will probably be affected less by an economic disturbance than any other people. Mr. Grorcr. Do they depend upon their old customs, their old pro- cesses of production? Mr. VatentineE. To a very great extent. Of course, they do wear a great many store clothes. Mr. Grorcr. And you feel they are about as independent as the Indians were before the white men went West? _ Mr. Vatenrine. They have been less demoralized by our civiliza- tion. Mr. Grorcr. What about disease among them? Mr. Vatentine. As far as our health reports go, or the reports with which I have been acquainted, they are fairly free from disease. Mr. Gxorce. Could the committee get the reports that show the comparative health conditions of these Indians? ° ‘Mr. Vatentine. Yes. I would be delighted to have you have them. Mr. Grorcr. I should like to see those reports, with a view to having them placed in the record. Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Meritt, will you get out Supervisor Murphy’s reports on health conditions throughout the country, as far as he may have made his survey, and bring them up to the chairman? I might leave with you, Mr. Chairman, the annual report of Dr. Murphy, which will give you a general sketch of conditions. ; WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2139 The Cuairman. He is the bureau’s expert, is he? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorce. Would that contain White Earth information 4 Mr. Vatentine. I do not know whether he himself has reached that part of the country yet or not. Mr. Grorcr. How far does that report run—I mean as to time? Mr. Vatentine. This is the report for the last year—that is, for the fiscal year ending last June. Mr. Georcr. What do you mean by not reaching that part of the country? Do you mean that he would have further information ta put into that report? Mr. Vatentine. He might. You see, when trachoma first came to our attention the attack that we made on it was in the Southwest; that was where we first discovered the urgent need of attacking it vigorously, and the force which we have been able to put at work. has not been able to cover the whole country as it should be covered. Mr. Gzorcr. Have you any information in the bureau that would show from the beginning your treatment of this disease, how you began in the Southwest, what you found there, how you treated it, and what success you have had, and so on? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think there is any comprehensive report, but I think I could get you a series of fairly good reports, which would probably give you the information you seek. Mr. Georeu. And also as to consumption? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. Grorcr. And venereal diseases? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; if those have been studied. The Cuarrman. Did you have anything further to say, Mr. Valen- tine, on the line on which you were going as to the importance from the different points of view of the various reservations—— Mr. Vatentine (interposing). I do not think of anything just at this moment, Mr. Chairman, other than this: That I sketched the the thing along very broad lines. The different personalities of the different tribes create a factor of difference which is of great im- portance in the wise handling of the situation. The Indians on the Blackfeet Reservation in Montana, for example, have a very differ- ent personality from that of the Pueblo Indians in New Mexico. That is a matter of véry great importance in dealing with Indians. Then, another thing that is a variant and that should be mentioned is the fact that many Indians have in the past made great progress and have receded from that progress and become discouraged both physically and mentally in a sense. For example, the Wichita In- dians, as I recall their history, 15 or 20 years ago perhaps were very industrious, self-supporting Indians, such as the Navajos are to-day, but changes in their affairs, possibly due to gratuities appropriated by the Government—and certainly firewater—have brought them to a very impoverished and desolate condition. Where changes of that sort have taken effect it is a good deal harder to make real con- structive progress than it is where no such condition or backslidden state has occurred. You have seen for yourself, for instance, the disastrous results of the allotment of timberlands to the Indians in Minnesota, a thing which, I believe, should never have been done. Where such things as that have happened, the problem is beset by difficulties which do not exist, for instance, on the Fort Apache Res- 2140 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ervation in Arizona, where the problem is still a virgin problem in the economic sense. The Cuarrman. Of these reservations you have named, what one gives the bureau the greatest amount of trouble in dealing with? In other words, where is the greatest state of unrest and dissatisfac- tion? Mr. Vatentine. The reservations in that condition at this time are the Pima Reservation, in Arizona; the Yakima Reservation, in Washington; and the White Earth Reservation, in Minnesota. Of course, a more specific point, but a vital one at present, is the oil and gas question on the Osage Reservation in Oklahoma. Those I have mentioned are our most pressing problems, although I may be leav- ing out the worst one of all—yes, Mr. Meritt suggests the Uinta Reservation. The Cuarrman. Are they among the largest reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. Those are pretty well up in size. ‘The CuArrman. And as to population? Mr. Vatenting. They are among the larger reservations. The White Earth Reservation, as you know, undoubtedly has about 5,000 Indians, the Osage Reservation has 2,300 Indians, and the Uinta Reservation has a smaller number, only about 1,300 or 1,400 Indians. Mr. Burcu. That reservation is east of Salt Lake? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Yakima Reservation has about 2,000 Indians, or a little over 2,000, and the Pima has about 4,000 Indians. We have a very big problem at Menomonie Reservation in Wisconsin, where we have timber and conservation propositions, with about 1,800 Indians. On the Flathead Reservation, which I did not mention, we have a pretty prime problem. We have big timber interests as well as big irrigation problems there. We have also big timber problems on the Fort Apache and San Carlos Reservations. / Burcu. There are no timber interests on the Jicarilla Reserva- tion ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. And none in New Mexico? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Cnairman. Beginning at the present time and working back- wards, Mr. Valentine, what reservations have you visited? In other words, what one was the one you last visited ? _ Mr. Vatentine. The last reservation was the Crow Reservation, in Montana. . The Cuarrman. When was that visit? Mr. Vatentine. In the fall of this year; I think it was in No- vember. The Cuairman. You mean the fall of last year? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Just before that I was on the Uinta Reservation. I went there from the Riverside School, in California: to there I went from the Pima and Fort McDowell Reservations, in Arizona; and to there from the San Carlos Reservation, in Arizona; to there from the Albuquerque Indian School, at Albuquerque, N. Mex.; to there from the Santa Fe Indian School, at Santa Fe; and I went also to San Ildefonso, in northern New Mexico, or north of Santa Fe. The Cuairman. Is that a school? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2141 Mr. Vatentine. There is a school at Santa Fe, but north of and around Santa Fe, ranging from 6 to 35 and 50 miles, are a number of scattering Indian pueblos. / The Cuairman. Roes that include all the reservations you visited on that trip last fall? Mr. Vatentine. I think so: that is all I recollect. I was at the Pheenix School. The Cuairman. That would be, of course, in connection with your visit to the San Carlos Reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that was the trip, as traced backwards. The Cuarrman. Was that the only trip that you made among the Indians last year? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think so. The Cuarrman. What has your custom been with reference to your visiting the reservations during the time you have been commis- sioner ¢ Mr. Vatentine. I have tried to go out as much as I could when Congress was not in session and when the problems in the office did not keep me here. I feel that it is very important to be in the field as much as possible. The Cuarrman. As a matter of fact, about how much time were you in the field each year? Mr. Varentine. I think I could give these recent itineraries very clearly. That was about a seven weeks’ trip—that is, the trip last year that I have just outlined to you—but the year before I made two trips to the field. On the first one—that was in 1910—I went, first, to the White Earth Reservation, in Minnesota, and from there to the Bismarck School, in North Dakota; thence I went overland to the Standing Rock Reservation, in North Dakota. Then I had to go out to meet the Secretary of the Interior on the train west of Omaha. From there I went to the Rosebud Reservation, after leaving him. From the Rosebud Reservation I went up to the Rapid City School, I think. From Rapid City I went to the Pierre School, at Pierre, S. Dak. From Pierre I went down to the Crow Creek Reservation, in South Dakota; from Crow Creek I went out to the Flandreau School and to the Pipestone School. From the Pipestone School I went home. That trip took a little over a month, if I recollect cor- rectly. After returning home, I went with Secretary Ballinger down to Muskogee; from there I went down to MeAlester, and from there down to the segregated coal fields. I then came home. We were gone on that trip about 10 days. The Cuairman. That was in Oklahoma? Mr. Vaniintrne. Yes, sir; that was a short trip. Then, the year before—that is, in 1909—I spent a month in Oklahoma. I went first into the southeast corner of the State, in the Choctaw country, and took a trip up through the woods on horseback to Tushkahomma. LT went to McAlester and to Muskogee, and I think it was from Muskogee that I went to the western part of the State to the Chey- enne and Arapaho Reservations, and to the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache Reservations south of that. I then went back to Muskogee. Then, from Muskogee I went over some of the oil fields in the Chero- kee country, and went to Tulsa, Okla. From there I went up to the Pawhuska Agency, on the Osage Reservation. From there I 2142 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. drove overland to the Kaw Reservation, and from Kaw I drove to the Chilocco School. I then returned to Washington. The Cuairman. And you say that trip occupied a month? Mr. Vaventine. Yes, sir; I left the 1st of November, and I believe I got back at the last of November or early in December. The Cuarrman. What one of the States has the largest number of Indians in it? Mr. Vatentine. Oklahoma. Including all kinds—freedmen, in- dermarried whites, ete—Oklahoma has about 117,000 Indians. The Cuatrman. That is almost half of the 250,000 Indians you mentioned as being subject to the jurisdiction of the Indian Bureau. Mr. Vatentine. Except that you would have to deduct from the 117,000 those not under the jurisdiction of the bureau. You would have to deduct about 20,000 or more of intermarried whites and those who have had their restrictions removed, leaving probably 75,000 or 80,000 Indians under the jurisdiction of the bureau. The Cuarrman. What State ranks next to Oklahoma in the numer- ical order indicated ? Mr. Vatentine. I think the next greatest number of Indians would be found in South Dakota. The Cuarrman. How many Indians are there? Mr. Vatentine. Roughly speaking, I should say about 20,000. The Cuatrman. And they are on how many reservations? Mr. Vatentine. There is the Pine Ridge Reservation, the Rosebud Reservation, the Crow Creek Reservation, the Lower Brule Reser- ‘vation, and a large part of the Standing Rock Reservation is in South Dakota. There are five of them, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. And what State ranks next? ‘Mr. Vatentine. The next one might possibly exceed South Da- ‘kota, and that is Arizona. I do not know just which of these States would rank ahead of the other in that respect. The Cuarrman. You were on the particular reservation that we have been giving some attention to in 1910; that is, the White Earth Reservation? _Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that is my recollection. The Cuarrman. And in the fall of that year? Mr. VaLentINE. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. In what month were you there? Mr. Vatentine. It was either in October or November—I think it was in October. The Cuarrman. About 15 months ago? ‘Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. "The Cuarrman. How long were you on the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. I was there, I think, just about two days or two and a half days. The Carman. What points on the reservation did you visit? Mr. Vatentine. I drove to the agency when I arrived, and the next morning I drove out to the day school. I do not recall the name of it at this moment. I drove from the White Earth Agency to the Pine Point School, and from there I went to the day school. .I do mot recall the name of it. ‘The Cuarrman. Was it Round Lake? _ Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. We went to a town called Beau- lieu, and stopped at this day school for lunch. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2143 3 Te Cuairman. Did you go from Pine Point to Beaulieu in one ay? Mr. VatEentINe. Yes, sir; I think so. The Cuamman. Well, it would be convenient, or not inconvenient, ne trip to call at Elbow or Round Lake, both of which have day schools. Mr. Vatentine. The place at which I was had an Indian village down near the shore of the lake, with a lot of frame houses rather close together. Tee HAIRMAN. It was probably Elbow Lake. Was it Wah-we-a- cumig? Mr Vatentine. I do not know. The CuarrmMan. Did you make any report for the files on that visit 2 , Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so. I went to call on the officers, Judge Long and Mr. Hinton, at Detroit, to get a first-hand view of the legal work that the Department of Justice was doing there for us. I had a short time for my visit over the reservation, and my main purpose was to get a general idea of the character of the country. The CuHamman. Was that your first visit to White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And the only one? Mr. VaLentine. So far as I can recall. Mr. Grorcr. Did you write any letters such as you spoke of be- fore? Did you write any letter from the field, or just immediately after your return, that would indicate the nature of the report? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so. Following trips of that kind, I can handle questions so much better when they come up in the ' office if I know the lay of the land from actual observation. I went to Pine Point because I thought that school should be discontinued and changed into a hospital until we got rid of the trachoma condi- tions there. I had the children lined up when they were having this nitrate of silver, or whatever it was, put in their eyes. I looked at their eyes myself in order to see what trachoma looked like. When I got back—I remember one thing—just as soon as I returned, I di- rected that our industrial supervisor go there and see what could be done in connection with the crops in that country, and then I gave a jerk to our medical work in that section. Mr. Grorcr. Did you have all the children before you when you inspected the conditions as to the prevalence of trachoma? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; all the school, as I remember. Mr. Grorce. What proportion of them were affected with tra- choma? Mr. Vatentine. There was only one doubtful case. Out of the 55 children 54 had well-developed cases. These had the white spots in their eyes. The mite We will probably come back to that during the examination at some other time. In a purely historical way, I think of nothing further to ask. : Mr. Vatenrrine. I had not quite finished my statement about White Earth. I think I went from Beaulieu to Mahnomen. That was be- cause I was interested in seeing the liquor situation, and to see what 2144 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, we would be able to do there to regulate it. Then I went to Detroit to visit the officer of the Department of Justice. Mr. Grorcs. Did you drive to Detroit? 5 Mr. Vatentrine. No, sir; we took the night train down to Detroit. The Cuarrman. You have not very many reservations larger or more important than the White Earth Reservation, have you? Mr. Vatentine. We have a great many larger reservations. The Cuairman. I should have said‘more populous reservations. Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir; for instance, Pine Ridge Reservation has 7,000 Indians on it. Mr. Georcre. What is the land area of the Pine Ridge Reservation ? Mr. Vatentrne. It is larger than the State of Massachusetts; it is 100 miles long and about 50 miles wide. The Cuarrman. What State is that reservation in? Mr. Vauentine. In South Dakota. Mr. Burcu. What do you pay these traveling men, and by “ travel- ing men” I suppose I mean the inspectors and supervisors and the school supervisors ? Mr. Vatentine. We pay them all the way from $1,800 to $3,000 a year. I think the salaries of all the school men are $2,000 a year and expenses. Mr. Burcu. How many did yeu have—I mean the men that can inspect, or the men who can do inspection work. How many travel- ing men do you have in that class? Mr. Vatentine. For all kinds of inspection work? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir. Mr. Vatentine. We have an investigating force of 7 men; we have a liquor force of about 10 men; we have two supervisors of construc- tion traveling around over the country, and we have 8 general trav- eling officials in our health force; we have 9 supervisors en- gaged in our school work; we have 5 engaged in our industrial work; we have 6 engaged in our forestry work, and 8 in our irrigation work. Mr. Burcu. How many reservations have you, approximately ? Mr. Vatentine. About 160. I do not remember the exact number. Mr. Burcu. Do the most of these men you speak of travel about all the while? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. They are mostly on the road ? Mr. Vatentinz. They are mostly on the road. Mr. Burcu. Does that include the men like Mr. Linnen or the Secretary’s inspectors? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I have not included them in our force. Mr. Burcu. How many are there of these? is Mr. Vatentine. I do not know how many there are at the present ime. Mr. Burcu. Do you know how many of them are connected with the Indian work? Mr. Vatentinz. I think there are three or four. Mr. Burcu. When you differentiate or classify these traveling men, do you mean to say that they follow each other around, strictly de- voting themselves to their particular branches; for instance, the in- dustrial force, medical force, ete. ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And they do nothing else? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2145 Mr. Vatentine. If they find anything wrong, it is their duty to report it, even if it is outside of their immediate jurisdicton. They have a plenty of work to do along their own lines. Mr. Burcu. Well, bringing this condition to bear upon the White Earth Reservation, has this force, since your knowledge of it—and that dates from the time you came into the Indian Office as private secretary, in 1904 or 1905, back within a reasonable period of hear- say—tfrom that time has this force been approximately as large in these various lines? Mr. Vatentine. Not quite, I think. In the earlier days we did not differentiate them along these lines, with the exception of the liquor force, construction force, and one or two forestry men and irrigation people. Outside of those we had a bunch of special agents and supervisors, some of them being called special agents and some supervisors, who were the men I spoke of earlier in the day as the men engaged in the investigating work. For instance, we have only recently had this force of nine people who are devoting their time exclusively to school work, and this force of five people devoted to industrial field management. Mr. Burcu. There has been a good deal of testimony tending to show a very distressing condition on the White Earth Reservation as to health, subsistence, and what you might call, perhaps, a state of moral depression and a low state of spirits—— Mr. VaLentine (interposing). I hope you confine your application of the term “ low spirits ” to the mind and not to the liquor. Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir; and a-generally forlorn state. That condi- tion seems to date back of the time when you became Indian Com- missioner. Now, I would like to know how that could occur with so large a body of inspectors, if they really inspected. What I mean by that is this: There is testimony here tending to show that some of these inspectors would come along and visit the villages where there were schools and where children and adults possibly were con- gregated in the hospitals or schools or homes, but that they would not go out into the highways and byways; in other words, that they would not go among that class of Indians who lived away from these places and were not directly under the care of the various offi- cials in these places, and that these places have not been inspected for a long time. What I would like to know, if you can give me the information, is how such a state of affairs could arise, or could have arisen, within the last 10 years, or could have existed. I want 1o know how that could have occurred, if there was a standard of inspection based upon the rigid requirement that these inspectors should do their whole duty or be fired. Now, if you can throw any light on that subject, it- will help a great deal. I would like to have your opinion. Mr. Vatentine. It is a matter of opinion largely. I can only throw this light on it, I think: Indian affairs, as you doubtless know, particularly since the period of the Civil War, have been subjected to very rapidly changing economic conditions and to many changes of policy. My general statement would be, as I look back on the Indian Service, that the American people had set themselves to do a great philanthropic task—probably the greatest the world had ever seen—in the way of caring for a race to which they owed the 2146 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. obligation that any incoming race owes to the one already on the ground. ~ Mr. Burcu. Do you mean the American Government? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the American Government, as the repre- sentative of the American people at large. Mr. Burcu. But apparently the American people, or some portion of them, have been engaged in cutting the throats of these people or taking what they have. Mr. Varentine. That is a little beside the point I am making. I am now speaking of our Government as being a democratic Govern- ment, representing the people of the United States as a whole. Iam not advocating a certain number of the 90,000,000 of persons. While the national conscience might be said to be very widely awake to the general problems, the administrative forces in charge of carry- ing out the will of the national conscience have never been ade- quately equipped for that purpose as they should have been equipped for a social and economic problem of the size before them. Mr. Burcu. You are now getting close; in other words, warm, as the children say. Carry that idea right to the inspection service, and we will get to my question. Now, have there been enough inspectors to enable them to perform their full duty? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so, sir; and I do not think we have enough to-day. Mr. Burcu. Well, what do you think of their doing their duty? Mr. Vatentine. I think inspectors are human beings like other gentlemen and ladies in this country. Mr. Burcu. Well, that is relative and problematical, and some lawyers might say evasive, but I do not think you mean it in that way. Mr. Varentine. Not at all; but I mean if I could get angels with: tlaming swords to run the reservations and inspectors with two flam- ing swords to watch the superintendents I could do better. Mr. Burcu. Is the price adequate that is paid to the men in the Indian Service? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely not. I do not know whether it is proper to say it before the committee, but the price, not only as to inspectors, but as to other people in the Indian Service, if you want to look at it from the pitifully humorous side, is ridiculously in- adequate; and if you want to look at it from the business side, criminally inadequate. Mr. Burcu. It appears from the testimony, if I remember ¢or- rectly, that sometime before Mr. Moorehead went up and discovered the conditions which we have now become so much interested in he was told that Dalby and Davis had been up there inspecting. Now, these abuses and horrors discovered by Mr. Moorehead had been of quite considerable long standing, and yet we have not run across any report from Dalby nor any report from Davis, although I think Mr. Meritt has searched for them. ° Mr. Merrrr. Mr. Dalby made a report. Mr. Burcu. He did? Well, yes; I think that is true that they made a report; but they did not report anything much, but about some little troubles at the agency or something of that kind. Mr. Merrrr. I have not read the report. A telegram was sent to-day for a copy of that report. : WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2147 Mr. Burcu. But Mr. Moorehead seems to have looked it over at the time, and thinks they did not report anything; at any rate any- thing at all startling, and why? I have not them on the stand, and T want to ask you your theory or idea about why. Mr. VaLenTINE. Well, I would not have as much basis for forming an opinion in the case as you would have, because my first acquaint- ance with White Earth affairs came when Mr. Moorehead returned to my office—and I do not think Mr. Moorehead will object to this— substantially, in tears, because of the conditions he found there as to health and in connection with certain timber matters. I suppose it has already been developed before the committee how Mr. Moorehead went to White Earth? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. That he was a member of the Board of Indian Commissioners, that they had no money, and that I suggested I could send a man into the field as one of our special timber supervisors, and Mr. Moorehead was sent out. I think that was in the spring, and in the early fall he returned to White Earth with Inspector Linnen, and it was their joint report that led to the reference of the timber frauds and land frauds to the Department of Justice for action. Now, that is my own personal acquaintance with White Earth affairs. Now, you interrupted me, I believe, in the second part of my rather long phrase at the beginning of -my answer to your first question, that while this country has appreciated this great task before us to the extent of saying that it should be done, and the establishment of the Indian Office for that purpose, it has never, in my judgment, adequately provided the means for doing it, and that general answer is all I can give. As to the personnel of any particu- lar investigation, I should not feel like passing on it unless I knew something about it personally. Mr. Burcu. Now, I will get down to more particular matters. Suppose you had the management yourself as an absolute dictator instead of a mere official of a republican form of government. Suppose you were the absolute dictator of the fortunes and condi- tions surrounding the Indians who are now supposedly under your charge, and you should find such conditions as that existing where you had had inspectors and they had reported to you unimportant details, what would you do? Mr. Vatentrne. Well, if they were under my jurisdiction and—— Mr. Burcn (interposing). And you were the dictator, the abso- lute boss. Mr. Vatentine. If they were under my jurisdiction—and, of course, I am speaking of the dual jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior and the Indian Office—and these people were my travel- ing men and a condition of that sort got by them when it was in any sense possible, even if outside of the direct line of their duties to see it, I should deal with them according to the extent of their .blindness. Mr. Burcu. You would fire them, would you not? Mr. Vatentine. I would not want to say that absolutely out of hand, because there is no difference between you or me or any other administrator. If they had knowingly passed it by and there 2148 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. were no mitigating circumstances to be considered, they should be fired out of hand. : Mr. Burcu. Well, now, just following that, any sensible man would, who had the courage of his convictions, fire them, but the way things are now, could you fire them, if you wanted to? : Mr. Vauentine. I could if I had the evidence, but under the civil- service rules it requires all kinds of evidence. , Mr. Grorcz. I was inattentive, and J apologize. About whom are you talking? . Mr. Burcu. These inspectors. Mr. Vatentine. No particular gentlemen. Mr. Burcu. These inspectors. Mr. Georcr. I mean what officials? rt Mr. Burcu. Only a class, inspectors; these traveling imspectors. L have been interrogating him about these traveling inspectors. Are they under the civil service? Mr. Vaventine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. They are protected by it? Mr. VaLentTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You must go through a form of trial if you want to fire them ? Mr. Vatentine. Substantially, although I do not know that it is exactly a trial. Mr. Burcu. Now, is there not any other protection ? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. Mr. Georce. If you will just allow me, other officials are protected by civil service, too, and you would have to treat all alike, and you would not fire other officials unless you had the evidence, would you? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I would not. Mr. Grorcr. I would like the judge to bring out, if he has it in his. mind, anything that would make these particular people different from the other particular officials. M. Vatentine. I mentioned, I think, while you were noi listening, Mr. George, the superintendents in the same way. The humblest per- con would come under the same rule. Mr. Burcu. Presumably a first or fourth class clerk, getting from $1,200 to $1,800 a year, comes through the civil service without the slightest political influence, and he receives his appointment on the score of his merit, does he not? Mr. Vatentine. Presumably. Mr. Burcu. Now, then, these inspectors come in somewhat the same way, or they have been put into the civil service on account of their long service, or something of that kind, have they not? Mr. Vautentine. Yes; I think most of them are men who were promoted from superintendents and other places. Mr. Burcn. Now, suppose a man should go out into Montana and strike into a reservation in Montana—an inspector—and not see things that he ought to see, fail to report things that should be re- ported, and which were brought to his attention, and all that, but make some perfunctory report, and you should become satisfied that that man had a motive and a reason for making a perfunctory re- port, and he were not protected by the civil service, could you fire im WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2149 Mr. Vatentine. Well, I do not think—— Mr. Burcu (interposing). I mean, would you be free from re- straint in the firing of that man? Mr. Vatentine. I would be technically free from restraint, but as an American citizen I think that every man ought to have a hear- * ing before he is fired. Mr. Burcu. I mean after a hearing. Suppose you had heard him and became satisfied that he was a man who ought to be discharged— by whatever process is immaterial. Mr. Vatentine. If he were free from civil service, I could fire him. Mr. Burcu. If you were free from that restraint, you could fire him, or discharge him? Mr. VatenTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Suppose there were men of high influence and high position interested in Montana affairs and interested in keeping the affairs as they were instead of renovating or changing them, as you might be led to do according to your conscience if the true state of affairs were reported to you, would there be any restraint in firing that man? Mr. Vatentine. If I were under any restraint in that matter I would be false to my oath of office. Mr. Burcu. Take a reservation, now. I will go further. A man is appointed as superintendent without reference to the civil service, I suppose? Mr. Varentrine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Does he pass an examination ? Mr. Vatentine. Not necessarily; he may be promoted. However, just at present we have an examination that they are passing. Mr. Burcu. Take the case of Darwin S. Hall, this Chippewa com- missioner. He was not under civil service, was he? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Well, now, he, perhaps, might furnish me some sort of an example. He was a Government official, was he not; that is, he occupied a fiduciary position ? Mr. Vatentine. I believe so: I do not recall just what his com- mission was. Mr. Burcu. By what means was he appointed; do you know that? Mr. Vatentrxe. I do not recall. I would have to look up the record. Mr. Burcu. The idea I am trying to get at is this: Whether the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of the United States controls the Indian reservations of the United States through his inspectors or whether he does not; whether he has a free hand unmolested and unrestrained by political influences whereby he can control the fate of these Indians for good or ill? Mr. Vatentine. He has not in the sense that he is a despot, Judge Burch. It is up to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to have reasons for his action, whether it is a dismissal, suspension, reduction, or promotion. I do not want to seem to beat about the bush, but what you call political influence can have effect just to this extent, that a Congressman or a Senator, or a member of another administrative department, is not debarred by the fact that he holds a position, presumably of honor, from bringing information 2150 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. in the same way that any citizen of the United States might bring information; in other words, that he can submit statements, sugges- tions, and counter-suggestions in a case, of which the administrative officer has got to take Just the same cognizance as he would have to : take if any other person in the United States submitted those sug- gestions. And it is undoubtedly true—it would be beating about the bush not to say so—that if any given officer or employee in a service of any kind happens to know and have acquaintance among men of that kind he can frequently bring a number of seeming facts and assertions to bear that, perhaps, some other citizen could not, and those require time for sifting. Consequently in that way it sometimes takes longer for an administrative officer to act than it would if such were not the case. I could refer you to certain cases right in my own office where I have had knowledge for a long time that a certain employee was inefficient, and I have tried to get from my chiefs of division and from my chiefs of sections and others statements as to that inefficiency. When they have said, “ This thing is so,” I have said, “ We can act if it is so, but we have got to be able to prove it under the civil-service regulations.” Even after a hearing is given so many doubts are raised as to the fullness of the hearing and as to the accuracy of the facts that it might take me a year, or two years, or three years to finally get that record down to the point where I, as a fair officer, could act on it. Mr. Burcu. Now, what I would like to know is this: If a good, responsible banker, farmer, or ranchman from the State of Mon- tana, in good standing, tells you that such a thing is going on in a reservation in Montana, the Blackfeet, we will say, and Senator Dixon tells you another thing, or Senator Carter, or some other. man of that standing and position in the Government, tells you another thing, are you as much entitled, in passing upon those mat- ters of administration, to depend upon what you glean from their judgment as you are upon what you glean from Senator Dixon’s judgment or Senator Carter’s judgment? I only use this as an illus- tration. Mr. Vatentine. I am free, if I have any backbone and moral stamina. Of course, there are men in life who are a little more afraid of Congressmen or United States Senators than they are of some plain citizens of the country, but such a man is a contemptible person, if he is so afraid. Mr. Burcu. I would like to come back to White Earth, which I know you personally want to clear up just as much as I do, and ask you how such a condition could have grown up? I do not speak now as growing out of legislation—that is, the defrauding of Indians of their lands—but. I mean their condition of destitution and their condition of disease, etc.; how could those conditions have grown up : oan had the character you speak of and had a free and ? _Mr. Varentine. Simply because, Judge Burch, the Indian service, since I have been acquainted with it, and to-day as it is organized, is beyond the capacity of any one man. If you would have rolled President Taft and Theodore Roosevelt and Mr. Wilson and Mr. Bryan into one, you would not have a big enough man to run the Indian service as it is organized to-day. While yow are tackling one thing somebody is starting a row on a reservation 2,000 miles WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2151 away; you just get your eyes turned to that when some question comes up as to the robbing of the Indians of their grazing interests upon the Fort Apache Reservation, and you just get a whack at that—and, ‘perhaps, remember that it is 3 o’clock and you have not had your lunch—when something comes up about some trouble occur- ring on the Crow Reservation. I tell you that a man who has not got an iron inside and an awfully even temper would go insane after sis months at the head of the Indian Office. = Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Valentine, you mean by that that in trying to spread yourself over this situation you are spread out too thin? Mr. Vatentine. Yuu bet. Pardon me for answering in that way. Mr. Burcu. That is all right; we are talking common sense. Now. there is not enough of you to go around and do the work? I am not speaking of you personally, but of the commissioner. Mr. Vatenting. Go ahead and speak of me personally. Mr. Burcu. No; I absolutely do not. Mr: Vatentine. Well, it is true of me personally. Mr. Burcu. Well, anything that you say would include these other gentlemen ? Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is exactly what we are trying to get at, and what I am trying in part to find out. I want to find out what the trouble is. Why are all of these Indians, or so many of these Indians and Indian reservations, in such condition? Is it the fault of the legis- lators in their legislation, is it a lack of control or of inspection ? Mr. Vatentine. I can answer your question a few months later. I have asked for an increase of $75,000 this year to try to get an increase in force in the Indian Office and be able to pay better salaries in the Indian Office, so that instead of being spread out as an invisible quantity over the country, I will be at least a visible quantity; and if Congress grants that request some steps ahead will have been made. Mr. Burcu. I want to find out some things, and I think that Mr. Valentine is a man of sufficient ability to tell me. Therefore, I will keep on. Now, Mr. Valentine, a part of the difficulty is due to the inadequacy of the force and to the inadequacy of the compensation paid to the force you have? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Now, do I understand that a part of the difficulty is due to that protection which the civil service spreads around the employees? : Mr. Vatentine. J do not think that has any great bearing upon it. Mr. Burcu. Let us see. We hear a good deal about the recall of judges. We know that there are some unjust judges—— Mr. Vatentine (interposing). I would like to remind you, Judge, that I am trying to keep politics out of the Indian Office. _ Mr. Burcu. I am using that as an illustration. There is much outcry against judges at the present time, and we know that there are some men who are not very capable. Now, in the case of Federal judges, if you attempt to impeach them—and it has been done a few times in the history of our Government—there is usually a long trial with comparatively little result, because the Senate are the judges, and they would have to sit so long to hear the cases thoroughly that it would keep them at that work all the while. Now, in that respect, some people believe—while they do not want any such thing as the 2152 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. recall of judges—they believe in some easier way or some more adequate means of disciplining those who are not regarded as alto- gether desirable in their conduct of office. Now, this has always struck me about the civil service; if you had to have a trial of every man covered by the civil service in your office against whom possible complaints might be made, would there be time enough to hear all these cases and hear the proof against them, etc.? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; we would have to set back the clock. Mr. Burcu. Then, the sum and substance of this civil-service idea, which I am trying to follow out, is that it is one of those things which really protects persons who are undesirable, in your opinion, but against whom you can not make proofs? Mr. Varentine. I am not dissenting from that, Judge, but I think that the spirit of fair play in a democratic government would make some such restrictions necessary. I am a firm believer in civil service, but I do believe that if a very careful study should be made of civil service it could be greatly simplified, greatly extended, and greatly strengthened, but the brutal fact is to-day that no man could run successfully a private business.as the Government business is run. T would not undertake to run, with all the money I could desire at my back, a shoe factory with the conditions under which I am under- taking to run the Indian Office, involving, as it does, the bodies and souls of a quarter of a million of human beings and three fourths of a billion dollars’ worth of property. Anyone who would tackle any sort of private business under such conditions would be jumping to his own doom. Mr. Burcu. Suppose it was generally conceded or largely con- ceded by a majority of all the people that the Indian Office was in a very undesirable condition of efficiency. Suppose it was understood to be in that condition partly because of the undesirable character of its employees, and I mean the men in the office—the officials and the employees—could any man, under the present conditions, go in there and renovate that service by getting rid of the undesirable employees or officials? Under present conditions, could he do it, or would he be bound hand and foot? Mr. Vatentine. I do not believe that he could make anything like a complete and adequate renovation within his own lifetime. Mr. Burcu. To what do you attribute that fact? Mr. Vatentine. Well, commissioner after commissioner has butted against that problem until he was reduced pretty nearly to pulp, and I have no doubt that many succeeding commissioners, after I have been reduced to pulp, will be having the same experience. Mr. Burcu. In other words, do you mean to say that it is a hope- less case ? Mr. Vatentine. Not if the law covering Indian affairs should be simplified and perfected, and the administration governing Indian affairs should be simplified and perfected. A body of skilled busi- ness men or social workers could do it if given a free hand to set about it, and it could be done in five years. You see, the Indian service represents two great vices—first, the vice of a control that can not let go, because of certain laws and things; and, second, the vice of a control that is not there; and between these two vices—— Mr. Burcu (interposing). You fall. Mr. VaentIne (continuing). You fall. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 21538 Mr. Burcu. That is what I have believed for a long while, but I want to get at the reasons for it, if you can give them to us. Mr. VatentineE. It might help you, Judge and gentlemen of the committee, if I may ask the committee to read here at this point a little sketch to which I would like at some time to address myself before the commitee. You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that last spring, when I was before you, I asked for an opportunity at some time to make a brief statement concerning Indian affairs, and you very kindly accorded me the privilege to do so at some time be- fore the committee was entirely through with the hearings. The Caarrman. “You will be afforded ample opportunity. Mr. Vatentrne. I think it would help the committee and Judge Burch along the line of inquiry he is now pursuing if this sketch were printed in the record for the consideration of the committee. : a a mere grouping of logical headings, but it is suggestive in itself. ee CuarrMan. Mr. Valentine’s synopsis will be printed at this oint. z The matter referred to is as follows: AN INDIAN FAMILY. 1. What does it want? a, Land, trade, or profession. b. Good health. c. Industrial schooling for the children. 2. What has it got? a, Land, undigested and misapplied. b. Poor health. c. Improving schooling. d. Unearned funds. é. Debts. . f. Unsettled claims; no trustee accounting. 3. Some immediate concrete tasks: a. Choose between cutting loose and teaching. b. We decide to teach; then— 1. Hold the land. 2. Individualize the funds. 3. Retain tribal holdings only under very special conditions. 4, Turn loose only after the most careful tests. c. Organize the Indian Bureau to do these things: 1. Out of politics of every kind. 2. Simplify appropriations. 3. Demand a real agpounting. 4, Simplify and perfect Indian law and administration. 5. Personnel. Mr. Burcu. With reference to the next meeting, I would like to state that we would be perfectly delighted if we could have a day to work in the office and clean up our desks. ; : Mr. Gzorcr. Instead of meeting Monday morning, I think Mon- day afternoon would be the preferable time. | The Cuamman. Monday is the regular meeting day, for. the whole committee, and the forenoon will probably be occupied with com- mittee work. Thereupon, at 5.15 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet at 1.80 o’clock p. m. Monday, March 11, 1912. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-8, vol 2——41 SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Monday, March 11, 1912. . The subcommittee met at 1.30 o’clock p. m., with Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) and Hon. Henry George, jr., present. Appearances as formerly. s The Cuarrman. Judge Burch, I suppose you have talked with Mr. Powell. He expects Mr. Nichols here in the morning, and I said to him that we would try to use Mr. Nichols immediately for the convenience of Mr. Powell. Mr. Burcu. I am agreeable to that. Mr. Powrti. He will arrive at 9 o’clock. The Cuarrman. At whatever time he may arrive we will interrupt the hearing and take up that matter. Mr. Burcu. I will be glad to have that done. TESTIMONY OF HON. ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS—Continued. Mr. Burcu. I discover that you say The Cuairman. Before you take that up I wish you would look at this statement, which you will understand and which interests you [handing paper to Mr. Burch]. That is a statement of the amount of money paid to Mr. Darwin S. Hall as salary and expenses for the years shown in the report. Mr. Burcu. Have you familiarized yourself, Mr. Valentine, with the history of the connection of Darwin S. Hall with the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Vatentinr. I have not had time to look into the record at all, although I have thought it over a little since the questions you asked me the other day. Mr. Burcu. Well, I have in my hand a schedule of the payments made to Mr. Hall for salary and expenses, which date back to 1892, in which he is mentioned as commissioner of the Chippewas. I sup- poke you are aware of an institution called the Chippewa Commis- sion ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know under what act that commission existed ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. 2154 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2155 Mr. Burcu. Are you familiar with the act of 1889, commonly known as the Nelson Act? Mr. Vatentine. Of course I have heard of it a great many times, but I have never had an occasion to study it in a way to make myself familiar with it. Mr. Burcu. That act provided for a commission of persons to do certain things, namely, to make a treaty with the Indians for a section of their land and then make an accurate census of the Indians of Minnesota. That commission was first composed of three persons; it afterwards was reduced in extent to one person. During certain years of the existence of that commission Mr. Hall was a member; and I fancy that the payments made to him during the years 1892 and 1893 were as a member of that commission. Then I notice there is a hiatus from 1893 to 1898. That was during the Cleveland ad- ministration, and another man, I think, was occupying the place in his stead. In 1899 he seems to have resumed and ran into 1900 and 1901 when, I think, the record will show he was again a member of the Chippewa Commission. Then he comes in again in 1910 and 1911 in, I think, a different capacity altogether, namely, commissioner for the removal of the Mille Lac Indians. These matters, I suppose, are not known to you? : Mr. Vatentine. Well, I recall, Judge, that Mr. Hall was as- signed—I can not name the year now, but sometime rather recently during my administration, I believe—to the further work of getting the Mille Lac Indians to come to the White Earth Reservation, where they would have houses and certain other benefits given to them, as well as allotments of lands. But just under what law he was ap- pointed ‘or how his commission read, I could not tell you. Mr. Burcu. Do you know at whose instance he was appointed ? Mr. Vatentine. The record would probably show that. Mr. Burcu. Could you obtain that? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Please do so. Mr. Vatentine. J will. Mr. Burcu. I will say to the committee—and it can be verified, I think—that I apprehend that the payments made to Darwin S. Hall, as shown by the schedule which I shall just now present and which was prepared under the direction of Mr. Valentine, from 1892 until 1901, inclusive, were made to him as a member of a commission called the Chippewa Indian Commission, first composed of three members, afterwards reduced to one, and finally wiped out by order gf the Secretary of the Interior in, I think, 1901, and that was in connection with the act, with which the committee is already familiar, of 1889, called the Nelson Act. I say the commission was wiped out; it was, although there was no authority in law for wiping it out, because it was established by a law of Congress, and that matter will be thrashed out in another place. Mr. Grorcr. During these hearings? Mr. Burcu. No, it will not be thrashed out here; at least I would not suppose so. It has been talked over under the head of purifying the roll, and the subject is, briefly speaking, now before the Secretary of the Interior, and I doubt whether it would be profitable for this committee to pursue it. I can readily see from the schedule which has been presented here, and which I will offer in evidence in a t 9156 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. moment, that all of Mr. Hall’s services and expenses for the first six years were in connection with the Chippewa Indian Commission, provided for under the Nelson Act. The two later years, 1910 and 1911, must have been under some new provision of law, which I have asked the commissioner to look up, providing for the removal of the Mille Lac Indians from their former reserve to the White Earth Reserve. ; ; Can you say, Mr. Valentine, what that paper is [handing paper to witness | ? Mr. Vatentrne. It is a statement evidently prepared in our office, because it is initialed by the chief of our Finance Division. Mr. Burcu. At whose request—at the request of the committee? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. The Cuairman. It was at the request of this committee, in connec- tion with the testimony of Mr. Moorehead. eo Burcu. Then you identify it as having been made in your office ? Mr. Vatentine. I should say so, sir, from its appearance. _ Mr. Burcu. For the purpose of enlightening the committee in re- spect to the services of Mr. Hall, in connection with the statement I have already made, I offer this for the record. The Cuarrman. It is not worth while marking it as an exhibit, but it will be included in the record. Said statement is as follows: Statement of amounts paid Darwin &. Hall, commissioner to the Chippewas. Year. Salary. Expenses. Total. WB02 oes simrcernssh pa ae tale teeweda weer ee eaatesmeeeneseaeersee $3, 600. 00 $1,357. 87 $4,957.87 1893.... 3, 420. 00 1,176.59 4, 656.59 Pie 3, 140. 00 951.50 4,091.50 3, 650. 00 1,095.00 4,745.00 3,620.00 1,086. 00 4,706. 00 230. 00 69. 00 299. 00 3,560. 00 1,276. 16 4,836. 16 2, 450.00 1,103.33 3, 553. 33 DO tals caie ceratsase cee an erence les eae qasawdldse dddomademeun 23, 730. 00 8,115. 45 31, 845. 45 Mr. Burcu. Now, the last two years of that service, 1910 and 1911, you have personal knowledge of. Mr, Vatentine. I remember he was up there engaged in that work; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know what his compensation was? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. Mr. Burcu. Was his service successful and satisfactory to you? Mr. Vatentine. I am under the impression that it was not, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know why he was retained as long as he was? You finally discharged him? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; we brought his commission to a close. Mr. Burcu. And will you state, if you know, why he was retained as long as he was? Mr. Vatentine. I can not recall the exact facts, but I remember quite clearly that it seemed that Mr. Hall was accomplishing no re- sults. He had taken something like a year or a year and a half, if T recall correctly, to remove a very few Indians, and it was out of -WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2157 al] proportion to the salary we were paying, and there seemed to be no further accomplishment likely. I remember when I was on the White Earth Reservation, in the fall of 1910, that in driving around with Maj. Howard we went to some of the Mille Lac cottages and talked over the Mille Lac situation a little bit; and I said I thought the thing to do was to supply enough land on the White Earth Res- ervation for the Mille Lac Indians and let it be clearly advertised that if they wanted to come to the reservation—because they were being crowded in more and more by the settlers—that they would be welcome on the White Earth Reservation; and then to discontinue the services of Mr. Hall, who was, as I say, drawing a salary out of al] proportion to any results accomplished. I felt it was an absolute waste of Government money to continue his services, looking at the matter from the point of view of what he was accomplishing and our duty to the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Well, did you do so? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, please state why. Mr. VatentineE. If I recall correctly, Judge, it was at your sug- estion. z Mr. Burcu. State the whole particulars. Mr. Vatentine. Just about that time we were starting in on the great big fight which is still on, and which I hope will continue as long as it is necessary; and, as I recall it, while you were making a preliminary study of conditions on the White Earth Reservation you felt it was important to retain the status quo and I felt so; that any act that would muddy the waters while we were finding out who was who would be unwise and might be a bad step to take, and we decided that it was better to retain Mr. Hall until we had gotten our feet. on bottom. Mr. Burcu. Was the subject afterwards brought up between your- self and myself? Mr. Vatentine. I think you and I had a conversation about it. Mr. Burcu. Do you recall asking me at a subsequent date if there was any reason why Mr. Hall should be further retained ? Mr. Vatentine. I think I remember asking you that question once, but I think your answer was at that time that you were not quite ready. to let him go. Mr. Burcu. You do not recall a later conversation in which I stated to you that I thought he might. go or might be let go? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall, but it might well be that that was finally brought about. Mr. Burcu. I understood it was; I understood you at once re- moved him. ; Mr. Vatentrine. I should think that would be the case. Mr. Burcu. Now, does the committee desire to ask anything further regarding this Hall matter? ; : The Cuartrman. For the purpose of identification, you might ex- plain, Mr. Valentine, who initialed this paper? In the upper left- band corner appear the initials “ W. T. E.” Mr. Merrrr. Those are the initials of Mr. Elliott. The Cuarrman. What is his position in the bureau? ; Mr. Vatentrne. He is a clerk in the finance division, Mr. Chair- man. 2158 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION.. The Cuarrman. And at the bottom, to the right, appear the initials 1] H. D.” ’ Mr. Vatentine. Hamilton Dimick, chief of the division. The Cuairman. The total shown by the report in salary is $23,730; the total in expenses, $8,115.45—a grand total of $31,845.45. That covers eight separate years, in one of which years, 1901, he drew only $299 in salary and expenses. Do you know what the reason for that was, Mr. Valentine? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. : The Cuairman. Why he drew so small a sum in the year 1901? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. ; ; The Cuairman. Evidently in that year he ceased his connection with the bureau and did not resume it until 1910. Mr. Vatentine. Of course it may be that he served only a few days in the year 1901 and then was discontinued. The CHartrman. Now, were the services that he rendered from 1892 to 1901, inclusive, of the same character ? ; Mr. Vacentine. I do not know what those services were. The Cuatrman. Well, during the years 1910 and 1911 what serv- ices did he render? Mr. Vatentine. In connection with the removal of the Mille Lac Indians. The Cuairman. He was a single commissioner, then, was he; a removal commissioner ? . Mr. Varentine. Well, that I do not know. I do not know just how his commission read, but that was, in effect, what he was doing. The Cuarrman. The object in keeping him there was to get the Mille Lac Indians removed from Mille Lacs to White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think under some law that had been passed by which the Mille Lac Indians were given allotments and certain benefits on the White Earth Reservation, if they wished to go. Conditions around the Mille Lac country had been so much changed that their old methods of life were necessarily changing and they were being crowded in more and more by the settlers there. The Cuairman. Does this schedule show all the moneys he received for the service? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I do not know, of course, just what the ques- tion was under which that schedule was prepared. I did not see it until Judge Burch handed it to me, a few moments ago. Mr. Meritt can perhaps tell you what was asked for. _ The Cuairman. I would like to have an explanation go in the record. Mr. Meritt, can you explain in what way these individual sums were paid to him each year, as shown by the schedule? Mr. Merirr. I think I can. From 1892 to 1901 he was paid as commissioner, appointed in compliance with the provisions of the Nelson Act—the act of 1889. The Cuarrman. During that time, then, he was one of the three commissioners, was he? eis Meritt. I think that a part of the time he was one of the ree. The Cuarrman. The act provided for the appointment of three commissioners, as Judge Burch stated a while ago: and for some reason, which does not appear, the three dwindled to one commis- sioner. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2159 Mr. Merrrr. That is my understanding. The Cuarrman. Do you know how that happened? Mr. Merirr. No, sir; that occurred before I entered the Indian Service. : The Cuatrman. Do you know when it happened ? Mr. O’Brien. That was in about 1898, by act of Congress, an amendment to the Indian appropriation bill, cutting down the num- ber of commissioners from three to one. The Cuairman. And Mr. Hall was the one who was retained ? Mr. O’Brien. According to this schedule it would appear so. The Caairman. Do you know what his duties were during the nine years covered from 1892 to 1901? Mr. Menirr. His duties were prescribed in the Nelson Act. The Cuarirman. And do you recall what they were? Mr. Merirr. To make treaties with the Chippewa Indians regard- ing their land and to make an accurate census of the Chippewa Indians; those are some of the duties that I recall. The Cuarrman. Was there any change in the nature of the duties when the law was changed reducing the number of commissioners from three to one? Mr. Merirr. I do not recall the wording of that amendment in the Indian appropriation bill. The Cuarrman. Perhaps Mr. O’Brien can help on that. Mr. O’Brien. No, sir; there was no change in the duties of the re- maining commissioner, and the law continued the same in that re- spect until the Morris Act was passed in 1902, which seemed to recognize the fact that all of the work of the commission had been performed, with the exception of the completion of the making of the allotments, and the completion of that work was delegated to the Secretary of the Interior. The CHarrman. When did Mr. Hall’s duty to remove the Mille Lac Indians to White Earth begin? Mr. Menrirr. Some time in 1910. The Cuarrman. The last two years in the schedule are the only ones that apply to him as removal commissioner ? Mr. Menrirr. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. And they cover all the money he received as re- moval commissioner, do they? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. . The Cuarirman. Well, did his service as removal commissioner commence with the beginning of 1910 and end with the end of 1911? Mr. Merirr. I could not tell you the exact dates. It would be necessary to look up the appointment and his status card in the Indian Office. ra The Cuarrman. But the schedule would cover the moneys paid to him whether the years were calendar years or not? hie! Mr. Mertrr. Yes, sir. I asked the chief of the finance division to get up a statement showing all moneys paid to Mr. Hall, the statement to show both salary and expenses, and that is the statement furnished in compliance with that request. I made the request in accordance with the wishes of the committee. : The Cuarrman. For those two years it appears that he received $8,560 as salary the first year—that is, 1910—and $2,450 for 1911; 2160 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. that he received for 1910 $1,276.16 as expenses and for 1911 $1,103.33, which would make a total of $8,389.49. Mr. Menrtrt. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Which he received as removal commissioner. Do you know how many Indians or how many Indian families he re- moved during those two years? Mr. Merrrr. He removed either 50 or 51 Indians. The Crarrman. Individual Indians? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. -The Cuarrman. You heard Mr. Moorehead’s testimony on that point, in which he stated, just as you say, that it was 50 or 51, one record showing 50 and another showing 51 individual Indians. Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. . The Cuairman. Did you hear Mr. Moorehead’s statement on the same point to the effect that he would undertake to remove all the Mille Lac Indians in 60 days—do you remember that testimony by him ? Mr. Merrrr. I remember that he made such a statement. The Cuarrman. Have you any opinion as to the possibility of his ability to carry out his promise or statement? Mr. Merirr. I would think that it would be possible for a man to persuade those Indians to remove to the White Earth Reservation for the simple reason that under the law they would get—under the Nelson Act—certain benefits by removing there, and it could be shown that it was clearly to their benefit to go to the White Earth Reservation. The Cuarrman. Do you know how many there were to be removed altogether ? Mr. Merirr. Between two and three hundred, I think. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Moorehead said that at the rate Hall was pro- ceeding it would take 7 years to do it, and that he would undertake. to remove them all in 60 days. The Cuarrman. Have you information as to what did become of the remainder, the 150 or more who were not removed by Hall? Mr. Merirr. They live around Mille Lacs Lake. The Cuarrman. And have not yet removed to White Earth? Mr. Merrrr. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Maj. Howard’s testimony, taken here last summer, shows all of those facts. I do not wish to curtail the chairman’s question, but wish to simply remind the chairman that is the fact. Mr. O’Brien. Mr. Meritt, do you know under what provision of law Mr. Hall was appointed? Was he appointed under the old Nelson Act or was there additional legislation ? _ Mr. Merirr. I think he was appointed under the Nelson Act. It is the duty, under the Nelson Act, to get those Indians to move to the White Earth Reservation, and I think it was under that act he was appointed, to carry out the provisions of that act. Mr. Burcu. There was no new act of Congress? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Mr. O’Brien. Could you ascertain definitely whether that is cor- rect or not? Mr. Mrnirr. Yes, sir; I could look up his appointment. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. » 9161 The Cuairman. Have you any knowledge as to what time during i aw years these 51 Indians were actually removed to White arth? Mr. Meritt. No; I have no definite information on that subject. The CuHamman. The next question is one for Mr. Valentine rather than for you, Mr. Meritt. Mr. Valentine, how did it happen that Mr. a accomplishing practically no results, was continued in his job? Mr. Vatentine. As I explained to Judge Burch a moment ago, Mr. Chairman, when the fact that he was accomplishing so little was called to my attention, Judge Burch and I, in talking the matter over, agreed, or at least I think Judge Burch suggested, that we should not make any change until he had had a chance to analyze the White Earth situation. The Cuamman. When was that conversation ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall, sir. , The CHarrman. How much of the two years had elapsed when your attention was called to the situation out there? : Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall that, sir. The Cuairman. Was the money that was paid to him taken out of the Chippewa fund? . se eras I presume so, but I should have to have that point looked up. The Cuamman. Well, whose immediate duty was it to notice and report on his Jack of action, and his lack of making a return in any way adequate to the salary he was receiving? Mr. Vatentine. It would come under the superintendent of the White Earth Agency to some extent; that is, he would be likely to have notice of what the man was accomplishing; it would also come under the jurisdiction of the land division of the Indian Office. The Cuamrman. Who was at the head of that division? Mr. Vatentine. John Francis, jr. The Cuarrman. At that time? - Mr. Vatentine. I think so. The Cuarrman. And who was the agent at White Earth during those years? Mr. Vauentine. I think Maj. Howard, sir. The Cuarrman. Do you know whether your attention or the atten- tion of the bureau was called to his inefficient service? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, sir. The Cuarrman. The rate at which he was removing those Indians shows a cost of about $167.75 a head. Mr. VaLentTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. What is the distance from Mille Lac to White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know how far it is. The Cuarmman. Mr. Moorehead said about 100 miles, if I recall rightly. Therefore, the 200 at that rate would cost $33,500. Mr. Vatentine. Of course, as soon as we learned of it, it became an administrative absurdity, to say the least. ; The Cuarman. But would not fairly good administration have learned it long before? Mr. Vatenttne. I think it should have, sir. 2162 * WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. And when it was ascertained, was the blame for the delay located somewhere and the attention of the negligent par- ties called to the matter and the riot act read to them? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall doing that myself; I remember that my chief aim was to lose the man. ; The Cuarrman. That would not seem to be enough in such a case, Mr. Vatentinze. No; I think not. There are a great many things connected with White Earth that the judgment day has not arrived yet, perhaps. : : f The Cuarrman. Well, was there anything holding the commis- sioner’s hands in the premises? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. The Cuarrman. Was there any reason why the commissioner could not have taken more vigorous action ? Mr. Vatentine. You mean as to removal ? The Cuarrman. Yes; or as to fixing the blame and making an ex- ample? ae. Vatentine. Well, I think probably that if I considered the matter at all in that light that I considered it as a part of the whole clean-up that would come when the Department of Justice finished its work there and had located absolutely just how much blame there was. _ The Cuarrman. But would not fairly good administrative action in an executive department absolutely require that when a highly pus employee was so very delinquent that he should in every way e visited with condign punishment, so that others who might sin in the same way would know of it and take notice? Mr. Vatentine. Most assuredly, if that delinquency could be ab- solutely known. I do not know at this date what, if anything, could be said in behalf of Mr. Hall. The Cuarrman. Does not that in itself show a lack of promptness in the administration of the affairs of the office, the fact that you have allowed it to run even to this date without knowing whether he had a defense, and, if so, what it was? Mr. Vatentine. Well, it is so tied up with the action of the De- partment of Justice and the Department of the Interior that it is pretty hard to solve the White Earth question or visit punishment on any person until the whole thing is cleaned up. I am not de- fending the matter at all; I agree with you absolutely that where you can find wrongdoing that that wrongdoing should be visited with quick and proper punishment. The Cuarrman. If this were the money of the people of the United States, do you think that it would have been permitted to run this way ? , Mr. Vatentine. I do not believe the question of money would enter into it. The money of the United States and the money of the In- dians is equally sacred, or should be, to an administrative officer. The Cuarrman. You think that if it were public money the case would not be any better than it is? Mr. Vatenttine. Not a bit. The Cuatrman. As a matter of fact, of course, these are not public moneys, they are trust funds? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2163 Mr. Vatentine. In that sense; yes. But I should regard public moneys in the hands of a public official as trust funds, to be expended according to his very best ability. The CHarrMan. In the same sense these are trust funds. Mr. Vatentine. Not technically, but morally in the same sense. The Cuatrman. Could you tell us what value the White Earth Indians got for this total expenditure of nearly $32,000? Mr. Vatentine. I could not, sir, because the final estimate of the situation by the Department of Justice is not in. I do not know what they found up there. The Cuarrman. In the early hearings—I have forgotten the num- ber, but about No. 5 or 6—you caused a statement to be inserted, showing the nature of the funds belonging to the Chippewas now in the hands of the Government. Do you recall that, Mr. Valentine? _ Mr. Vatentine. I think that must have been inserted by some one else, because last Friday was my first appearance before the com- mittee. The Cuatrman. I am inclined to think you were present when this was done. Mr. VatentiIne. Was it last Friday, sir? The Cuarrman. No; it was last summer—last August. Mr. Vatentine. Oh, that may be, then. The Cuareman. I will waive that for the present and call your attention to it later, and ask you if that shows the existing condition as to their funds, and if it does not we will ask from you a statement showing what the present condition of their funds in the hands of the Government is and where they are. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. What benefit the’ Indians are getting from the funds, and if any of them are in local banks anywhere, the names of the banks, and what interest they are paying on the deposits, and all about them. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Before you resume, Judge Burch, if I may be pardoned, I would like to put in the record at this point a copy of a letter and memorandum which Mr. Meritt called to my attention just before the committee met to-day. It throws direct light on the relations between the Interior Department and the De- partment of Justice in connection with the whole White Earth mat- ter, and also has a direct bearing on the case of Mr. Hall, or, perhaps T had better say a pretty direct indirect bearing. May I read the letter, Mr. Chairman ? The Cuatrman. You may; but before you read it I want to ask whether Mr. Meritt has been sworn? Mr. Mertrr. No, sir. The Cxarrman. I am inclined to think you have already been sworn, but as we have so many questions to ask of you perhaps it would be just as well to administer the oath, so that whenever you do make a statement it will be testimony. ; Mr. Merrrr. I will swear that the answers I have given so far are correct. 3 The Cuarrman. Very well; just be sworn in that connection. Mr. Meritt was thereupon duly sworn by the chairman. 2164 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VaLenTINE (reading) : DECEMBER 10, 1909. Dear Mr. Secretary: The gist of the matter now before the Department of Justice in connection with White Earth and of the formal request you made to the Department of Justice some time ago is: That this matter is perhaps the most important now before you in connection with the Indian side of your ad- ministration; that the prosecution of these timber frauds should be done by the Department of Justice; that the cases are so numerous and so involved that the United States attorney for Minnesota needs, and he himself takes this position, too, a special United States attorney to handle these cases in conjunction with him; that this special United States attorney, in view, as I have said, of the gross nature of these frauds and the prime importance to our administration of bringing them to a thorough and speedy close, should be an unusually sound, brilliant, quick man; that the Indian Office can, if the Department of Justice is: short of funds, supply funds to pay necessary helpers of the special United States attorney of at least $4,000 between now and the 1st°of July, 1909; that, as we are short of men, we should prefer the Department of Justice to use their own men, but that if they can not do so, I will guarantee the men also. Sincerely, yours, R. G. VALENTINE, Commissioner. Hon. R. A. BALLINGER, Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C. And to show the committee how we realized early in the day the difficulties ahead of us in this case and the need of taking no action that we had to back track upon, with this letter appears a memo- randum with my initials at the bottom and dated at the top October 8, 1909; that was in the same year. — Mr. Grorce. Preceding or following? Mr. Vatentine. October 8, 1909; and the letter was December 10, 1909. [Reading :] White Earth rottenness. I want to go to the bottom of the thieving that has been carried on in the White Barth*country, without regard to whoever we hit. I take it as a personal fight on my hands, and I want all the assistance I can get; yet I do not want anyone to jeopardize his livelihood by waging this fight, and should anyone feel that he can not afford to do it I want him to come and tell me so, and I will try to get some one else, and I will not hold any unwilling- ness on the part of anyone against him as a weakness. We have a big fight, and we might just as well realize it and get at it in a businesslike manner. I want to spare no energy—traveling, or work here in Washington, visits to the Departments of Justice or Interior. Tell me whenever anything is being side- tracked. We will have all kinds of opposition. I want to stake my own reputa- tion in getting justice in this thing and in getting these people punished. R. G. V. The Cuarrman. What is the last statement which you read, Mr. Valentine? Mr. Vatentine. That memorandum that is before you, Mr. Chair- man. The Cuarrman. It is not addressed to anyone? Mr. Vatentine. It was simply put in the public files in the office so that everybody would have notice of the seriousness of the situa- tion and some of the difficulties that might be encountered. Mr. Grorce. Did you send that to anybody? Mr. Vatentine. I do not remember, sir. The Cuarrman. Well, who would necessarily see it there? Mr. Vatentine. The people in the land division and the law office of the bureau. Mr. Gzoree. Is that the usual way of transmitting information as to the policy of the bureau? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2165. _ Mr. Varentine. It is one of the ways we follow to try to.get every- thing into the public files, so that it will be a matter of record. Mr. Gzorce. It is a very important declaration. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorce. You did not send it to anybody, you say? Mr. VaventTine. Very likely, as it is attached to the letter ad- dressed to Mr. Ballinger, a copy of it went to him; I do: not re- member. The Cuarrman. At the bottom of it, by stamp, are the words “Filed by R. H. C.,” or it might be “G.” Mg. Vatentine. I do not know. The Cuarmman. Who was the filing clerk in the Indian Office? Mr. Vatenttne. I do not know who that is. Do you know, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Mertrr. Let me see his initials. Mr. Grorce. It is merely stamped on the letter. Mr. Merrrr. I do not recall at this time who that is: it is one of the filing clerks in the filing section. Mr. Gerorce. Is there a date on it showing when it was filed? The Cuarrman. October 8, 1909, is at the head of it, but there is no filing date. There are a few changes in pencil; were they made before it was placed in the files or after ? Mr. Vatentine. Before, sir. Mr. Grorce. Do those changes materially change the sense? The Cuarrman. Well, he makes some little change. Mr. Georce. But not in the spirit. The Cuarrman (reading) : I do not want anyone to jeopardize his interest— appears originally, and it was made to read— I do not want anyone to jeopardize his livelihood. In another place it originally said— I want to stake my own reputation in getting at this thing. And the change makes it read— I want to stake my own reputation in getting justice in this thing. Mr. Burcu. I call your attention to another case of somewhat similar character, a request upon my part. Do you remember one Nicodemus Hurr ! Mr. Vauenrine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Who was some sort of a school officer at Pine Point? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you recall bringing to my attention the character of Hurr and the desirability, in your opinion, of firing him? Mr, Vatentine. Well, I remember that we had some conversation on the subject, Judge, but just what it was I do not recall. : Mr. Burcu. You afterwards had charges brought against him, gave him a trial, and you did dismiss him? Mr. Vatentine. I should have to refresh my mind on that. I imow he is out of the service, but just how I do not know. Mr. Burcu. You do not recall anything about the situation? Mr. Vatentine. I do not actually recall. Mr. Burcu. Then, if you do not recall you can not say. » 2166 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Varentine. I remember you and I talked about it. I think he resigned or was planning to resign. Mr. Burcu. No. Mr. Vatentine. But I have a vague idea that there was something similar in the Hurr case to the Hall case, but I can not put my mind on it. Mr. Burcu. You ordered Maj. Howard to make charges against him and he had a trial. A Mr. Mc somebody went up there and had a trial and recommended his dismissal and you dismissed him. I will say, however, that in the case of Hurr I also requested the suspension of action, but Mr. Valentine afterwards removed the man. I discover in your testimony of Friday afternoon two sentences, or two portions of one sentence, that I want to interrogate you about. [Reading :] : You see, the Indian service represents two great vices; first, the vice of a contro] that can not let go because of certain laws and things; and, second, the vice of a control that is not there, and between these two vices— And then I interpose and say, “ You fall,” and you said, “ You fall,” or something to that effect. Now, I would like to know what you mean by the vice of the laws and customs that can not let go, that control because of certain laws and things and yet can not be let go. Now, be particularly explicit and definite. Mr. Vatentine. I refer to the general complexity of Indian law and its lack of adaptability in many instances to the economic or social condition of the Indians at this time. Mr. Burcu. Do you mean statute law; that is, acts of Congress? Mr. Vatentine. Largely; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, is it your idea that they are so complex and difficult of operation that they should be codified or simplified in some way or other comprehensively ? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely. _ Mr. Burcu. Have you ever recommended that? Mr. Vautentine. I do not know whether I have recommended it or not in any official communication, but I have talked it over many times with the people in the department, and I think I have referred to it in public speeches, and I have referred to it frequently before committees of Congas Mr. Burcu. Have you ever given your idea in any sort of concrete or practical form to any committee of Congress or to any Member of Congress ? Mr. Vatentine. I think I have stated it in pretty concrete form before the House Committee on Indian Affairs. Mr. Burcu. How long ago? Mr. Vatentinez. Last year, I think, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you put it in the form of a statute; that is, a memorandum of how, in your opinion, it should be done? Mr. Vatentinez. I have stated my opinion before the members of the committee, but I do not think my statements were taken down. Mr. Burcu. Do you know whether they took any action in respect to your recommendations? ; Mr. Vatentine. I have not heard of any action. _Mr. Burcu. Now, just state, for the purpose of giving us some little pointer on that matter, what you mean; that is, wherein do they conflict or become complex and difficult of application ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2167 Mr. VatentineE. Of course the first big thing that I had in mind was that the Indian Office works under something like 1,400 appro- priations and funds. Mr. Burcu. One thousand four hundred appropriations and funds? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. I do not wonder you are surprised. Mr. Burcu. Generally applicable or applicable in the aggregate to the different reservations? Mr. Vatentine. To the different reservations and different activi- ties. Mr. Burcu. One thousand four hundred ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Now, the activities of the Indian Serv- ice, as you will see from our roster, consist chiefly of about nine main lines. Take our health work, for example. It seems to me that it would be more businesslike to appropriate for the health work as one appropriation. I suppose we draw from possibly—I should be will- ing to guess, and I think I would come fairly near it—100 different appropriations and funds in connection with our health work on Indian reservations. Mr. Burcu. That is, for instance, the Chippewa fund—— Mr. VaLentine (interposing). And the Sioux fund. Mr. Burcu. The funds belonging to each tribe? Mr. Vatentinz. To some extent. Then there is a general appro- priation of $70,000 or so for general work. Mr. Burcu. What do you call general work? You use such gen- eral terms that a novice can not understand them. Mr. Vatentine. For instance, our medical supervisor is our chief traveling officer. Mr. Burcu. And that applies to all reservations? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. And then we also pay our physicians and our nurses out of the school-support fund, in many cases where they are employed in schools. Then there are gratuities appro- priated by Congress, not in compliance with treaty obligations, out of which some health work is-done. In other words, when a con- crete proposition comes up, as, for instance, that trachoma should be treated at such and such a place, at Pueblo, in the Southwest, we nor- mally have several places where we can look to see if we can find money for that work. The thing is just a hodgepodge. Mr. Burcu. A kind of grab-bag affair? ; Mr. Vatentine. A great deal of a grab-bag affair. _ Mr. Burcu. You rush around to find some fund applicable to that. work, and if you happen to have good luck and find it you apply it? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. We can never come to Congress and make a statement that the medical work of the Indian service throughout the country has cost so much in the past year out of one fund, and say that because of the spread of the work here or because of the cessation here we can modify the appropriation for another year. We can not make up our budget as a business man could make up his. vir. Burcu. Now, you spoke of the appropriations. Are there any other complexities in the laws governing the Indians? : Mr. Vatentine. You take the statutes for opening reservations as they are passed. There ought to be some fundamental theory worked out as to allotments, so fundamental and general that it could be applied to any particular locality and a method of allotment devised 2168 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. with respect to the economic and social needs of the particular Indians at that place. Instead of any such act there are a great num- ber of opening acts, each one coming up by itself and subjected to all the ideas of the times and to all the influences of the times as to that . particular place. And I feel that in making such acts the basic, economic, and social needs are lost sight of, and that makes it very difficult to carry on the Indian business. Mr. Burcu. Are there any of these things that stand in the way of mtelligent administration of the Indian Bureau in the line of attorneys? For instance, tribal attorneys or attorneys for special claims in the Court of Claims? Mr. Vauentinz. I am rather under the impression that there have been some in the past, but I do not know that I could name you any offhand. Mr. Burcu. Do you know whether there is anything like a system providing for tribal attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. Well, a bill has been introduced or suggested to Congress this year which is, as far as I know, the first step in that direction, namely, a general enabling act for the prosecution of tribal claims. Mr. Burcu. In the Court of Claims? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. There is another thing attached to that which I would like to bring to the attention of the committee. The Indian Bureau, either under the Interior Department or under the War Department, before 1849, for the last 100 years has been deal- ing with Indian tribes in matters involving areas of land and vast sums of money, and as far as I know there never has been an account- ing made with any one of those tribes along real business lines, such as any trustee or guardian would feel morally, if not legally, bound to give to his wards in any question in private life. It is a condi- tion that I think is almost unspeakable in its shockingness to think that this Government could have gone on all this time and never have rendered such an accounting, and it is out of the haziness made by the lack of such an accounting that a lot of these wrongful tribal claims are pressed, or even worse than that, that a lot of real, gen- uine tribal claims are not pressed. Mr. Burcu. What have you to say as to the nature of these en- abling acts referring claims of tribes to the Court of Claims for adjudication, and the employment of attorneys who generally get those up? Mr. Vatentine. Well, they generally come into our office in the form of an application from some firm of attorneys who become tribal attorneys either on an annual salary or on a contingent fee for a tribe of Indians. There is a statute and regulation of the department which has led to a general policy of requiring such attorneys to get the consent of the department before negotiating with the tribe, and where such consent is obtained the attorneys go and negotiate with the tribe. Mr. Burcu. “ Negotiate.” What does that mean? Mr. Vatentine. That is, they hold meetings with the tribe and draw up a form of contract such as the tribe and attorneys think is right, and submit that to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and Secretary of the Interior for approval. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2169 Mr. Burcu. And it is approved or disapproved ? Mr. VaLentTine. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Has it been brought to your attention in this par- - ticular that great iniquities have been practiced on the Indians? I mean, charges of great iniquities practiced upon the Indians in that regard by these attorneys or their agents? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. I remember that when this ques- tion was before Secretary Ballinger some few years ago I made up a statement of the fees that had been paid to attorneys from 1898 down to the present time and, I think, that statement showed something like nearly $4,000,000; what the exact amount was that was recovered I do not recall, but it seemed rather a big fee. Mr. Burcu. In other words, attorneys secured private contracts to prosecute claims for tribes of Indians in the Court of Claims of the United States, which were approved by the Secretaries of the Interior at different times, and received $4,000,000 from the Indians for the prosecution of those claims before the Court of Claims? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. But those fees were paid out of the moneys recovered. 3 Mr. pune But they came out of the Treasury of the United tates ¢ Mr. Vatentine. Decidedly so. Mr. Burcu. And taken from what the Indians would have had? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. For instance, you take the rather famous claim of the Colville Indians, by which they got, if I recall it correctly, $1,500,000; they got over $1,000,000 at any rate. Mr. Burcu. You mean the attorneys or the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. The Indians. ; Mr. Burcu. From your observations do the commissions received on the recovery of those claims run from 5 to 20 per cent? Mr, Vatentine. That is roughly correct, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Well, now, returning to the tribal attorneyship. That is a different thing; that is a regular attorneyship and is a different thing? Mr. Vatentine. On a yearly salary; yes, sir. Mr. Burcn. What salaries have usually been paid to those attor- neys? Mr. Vatentine. Well, they have ranged, I think, from $2,500 to $6,000, $7,000, or $8,000. I think one firm of attorneys in the Five Tribes had a contract of $5,000 and a supplemental contract for $3,000, making a total of $8,000. ; Mr. Burcu. Where have these attorneys usually resided? Mr. Vatentine. A great many of them have resided in Wash- ington. Mr. Burcu. Are they not almost universally Washington attor- neys? Mr. Vatentixe. No; I think not. The attorneys for the Five Tribes, for example, live down there, I think. Mr. Burcu. Down in Oklahoma ? : Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. ; . Mr. Burcu. Could you, without very much difficulty, get up a list of the tribal attorneys for the various tribes? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. . Mr. Burcu. And present it at a later session? 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——42 2170 WHITE EARTH ‘RESERVATION. Mr. Vauenvine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. With the compensation of each attorney ? Mr. Vaurentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And the time when he began his service? Mr. Vatentine. And when the service will expire by the contract. The Cuatrman. The means or manner by which they become tribal attorneys, whether they had recommendations, and who it was recom- mended them, and all those features. Mr. Burcu. Most of those details were given while the chair was busy otherwise, but there are one or two that have not been spoken of. Have these attorneys been obliged in the beginning to present to the Secretary, for the purpose of obtaining the right to go on the reservations, any sort of recommendations or credentials? Mr. Vatentine. Well, as I recall it, the attorney makes an appli- cation to negotiate and the Secretary aproves that, and, of course, the approval of the Secretary is what he usually carries with him to the reservation. Mr. Burcu. Does an attorney ordinarily present to the Secretary satisfactory evidence, by way of recommendations of judges or other- wise, that he is a reputable and honest attorney, etc. ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall just what the character of the evi- dence is that the applicants supply, but I will be glad to look it up. ‘Mr. Burcu. If you can, please present that information not only as to the tribal attorneys, but the Court of Claims’ attorneys. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. In your opinion is that an equitable system for the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. You mean the tribal attorney or the other at- torneys ? . Mr. Burcu. Either. The way it is now managed? Mr. Vatenting. I think some form of governmental legal-aid society could be devised, perhaps, that would be superior. Mr. Burcu. Do you not think that a tribal attorney should be re- quired to live upon or in close proximity to the reservation he repre- sents and devote his time entirely to that service? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, it depends upon what the particular matter is. If it is some case that is pending -before the Court of Claims : Mr. Burcu (interposing). No; I mean a tribal attorney. Mr. Vatentins. You mean on an annual salary for attention to tribal affairs? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. Under those circumstances I should say that the attorney should by all means live as close as possible to the tribe. The Cuarrman. Did your request of Mr. Valentine include the at- torneys appearing in the Court of Claims? Mr. Burcu. No. The Cuarrman. Well, please include in your request that he give the names of the attorneys having Indian claims against the Govern- ment and for depredation claims against the Indians. I wish you would include all of those while you are at it. Mr. Burcu. Well, all right; I will pursue that. Please add the names of claim attorneys in the Court of Claims, the acts under which they were appointed, the amount of compensation provided WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2171 in their contracts, and the amount of the claims involved in the suits, in addition to the tribal attorneys and their salaries and con- tracts. The Cuarrman. Add to that what was in the other question as to the recommendations, the manner in which the claims were made? Mr. Burcu. And the recommendations, and the manner and through what influence they became tribal attorneys for these pur- oses, z Now, the Chair suggested a moment ago Indian depredations. I am sure from my knowledge of the Court of Claims’ work on Indian depredations, that you will have to call somebody else besides Mr. Valentine on that. Those are claims put up by the private attorneys without any authority from Congress. They are attended to in that branch of the Department of Justice presided over by Mr. Lewis, the colored Assistant District Attorney—the Indian Depredations’ Division of the department—and the Indian Bureau would know nothing with regard to them except to furnish some record in the matter. The Cuarrman. In view of what the committee has already seen in reference to the manner in which councils are held and some of the other things in connection with the transaction of Indian affairs, including the employment of attorneys, the committee would like very much to have full information on those points. Mr. Burcu. In respect to that and in connection with your defi- nition of negotiations with the Indian tribes, I want to ask you if there is any settled policy in your bureau in the recognition of what are called councils. or any definition of the word council as applied to the Indian tribes? Mr. Vatentine. We have a settled policy to this extent: That where tribes have what appears to be a duly authorized business committee or council, perhaps one of the best. examples of which is the Osage council, it has been the custom of the department to recognize such a council. At many other reservations, however, the council or business committee have become more or less informal affairs, under the general tendency to do away with tribal chiefs and tribal customs, and on some reservations, a council is more a general initiative or referendum than on others. I might add, per- sonally, if it is of any value to the committee, that I feel that as a rule a tribal council is not a valuable assistance to administration. Mr. Burcu. Do you believe that if there were rules and regula- tions laid down for giving notice, securing attendance, and the man- ner in which tribal councils should be conducted, that they then would be of value? : Mr. Vatentine. I doubt if even then, Judge, because we are in this very difficult situation. On the one hand, a very large number of the Indians, both on and off the reservations, are as capable or more capable in their own affairs than the average white man. On the other hand, there is a large number who still need in almost every way the protection of the Government. Now, when I went down on the Pima Reservation, for example, I found that taking it altogether the Indians knew more about their own affairs—had better ideas about their own affairs—than many of the people we had there for a good time in the past. r. Burcu. You mean the Government officials? 2172 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. They were not only an unusually in- telligent committee of Indians themselves, but they had been com- paratively free from interested outside interference, so they hadn’t lined up in vigorous fashion. Go to another reservation, for ex- ample, as you yourself have seen, the Chippewa, and you can pretty near get up a council at any time on any subject and any kind of a vote you wanted, in my estimation. I do not know of any regula- tions that you could lay down with a people so mixed in custom, so representative of both ends of the scales of intelligence, so differing in moral capacity, that would make an administrative official depend- ent on the vote of that council safe on relying on it. Mr. Burcu. By that you mean no general regulations that you would formulate for the holding of councils could be devised ? Mr. Vatentine. I mean that, sir, and more. I doubt if any specific case could be adequately governed so as to insure a really intelligent vote. Mr. Burcu. Then what on earth do you mean, or does the Secre- tary mean, or somebody mean, about allowing attorneys to negotiate with the Indians—with the tribes? How can they negotiate with them? Does that mean that they are to go to each one and button- hole him and find out his view and set that down and take a census of all the Indians, or does it mean a council? How can he negotiate? Mr. Vatentineg. I wish I could answer that question. Mr. Burcu. Is it not a farce in your opinion? I will not say that. What is your opinion of that system of negotiations? Mr. Vatentine. I think it should be brought to an end. Mr. Burcu. Thus far carried on, what is your opinion? Mr. Vatentine. I am not ready to call it a farce, but as I have already intimated I can place no intellectual reliance on it. I don’t feel, in other words, as I do when a vote comes in from any precinct in any of our large cities or country districts that, on the whole, that vote represents the feeling of the community if it is far enough removed from bossism. Mr. Burcu. Here in this case there is testimony tending to show that an attorney in Washington went to White Earth and had some sort of permission, or claimed to have—I believe that was disputed; but not matter—succeeded in calling together a number of persons at one point and holding a conference with the members of the tribe and adjourn it to another point and taking six wagon loads of alleged Indians and going down to that other point and holding another conference, and thus going around with wagon loads of men to different places, and finally winding up with perhaps several of such hearings as that and coming back here with a contract. Is that your idea of a council ? Mr. Vatentine. My idea of it would be that it was a pretty bad procedure. Mr. Burcu. Is that a common custom in procuring these consents and representations of attorneys in the Court of Claims? Mr. Vatrntine. I never was present when such consents were pro- cured. Some of our superintendents on these reservation could give a more correct answer to that. Mr. Burcu. Thatis what I am coming to. Have you inspectors who, if they did their duty, could be delegated to go out when such matters were presented to the council to a tribe or reservation and sec WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2173 to it that those people in some form or other adapted to that par-: ticular tribe really ratified or did net ratify the alleged contracts prepared by these attorneys? r. VALENTINE. We have enough inspectors at present to do that. It should be done if this system is to continue. Mr. Burcu. What do you think of a system that in itself allows these big slices to be taken off for attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. I have been against it. Mr. Burcu. For long? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. J think I have a pretty unsavory reputa- tion here in Washington because of the attitude I have taken toward these contracts. Mr. Burcu. Are you a trouble maker for these contracts? Mr. Vatentine. I have lots of good enemies, Judge, of the right sort. Mr. Burcu. I want to ask you, Mr. Valentine, what other opera- tions of law—go through the laws if you can—do you consider as pertinent to this so-called vice or legal and custom control? Mr. Vatentine. We have talked of allotments. Mr. Burcu. You did not go into that allotment matter very freely. Do you believe in allotment in severalty ? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How large? Mr. VaLenTInE. I was going to speak of that in the little memoran- dum I file with the committee. Mr. Burcu. Suppose you do it now? Mr. Vatentine. We have followed in our allotment system in Indian affairs in the last few decades much the homestead system, which, I think, is basically wrong. This idea of alloting people so much land that they live a considerable distance apart and have no social life is wrong economically and socially, both to the men and wives and children. Unfortunately, that checkerboard habit got started in the early days and it has been generally continued since. Another basic evil, I think, in the present allotment system is that allotments are made to individuals—men, women, and children. I think any sane social point of view would take the family as the unit. Mr. Burcu. But is not “family ” a sort of indefinite term? One family might consist of 12 and another 3 members. Would you give the same amount of land in both cases? Mr. Vatentine. I am coming to that. I would apportion the land to the needs of the family. If I had a family of 12, for in- stance, father, mother, brothers, sisters, and an aunt or uncle thrown in, and seven or eight children living together, forming a home, I would apportion the land accordingly. You have no difficulty in the city of Washington in finding out the lands that exist between homes. Forming a home, I would say, from the point of view of that home as an individual unit, the question presents itself how much must this family make to look to its future living from land, or trade, or from the professions, just as we do in our own lives? In the bulk of cases it would be land. I would say that family needs, if not irrigation farming, perhaps 100 acres to make a living on, and for the children, as they grow up, perhaps, give them 5 or 10 acres apiece in the way of arriving at an amount. If it is dry farming 2174 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. country it might take two or three sections of land, or four or five sections, to give them an adequate chance to make a livelihood. Mr. Bourron. Grazing land. Mr. Vatentine. Or dry-wheat land or anything of that sort. If it is a rainfall country, where there is more than 20 or 25 inches of rain a year, you could come down to a half section or section for a family of that size. In other words, either adopt a system according .to the size of the family and the nature of the land or the present value of the needs of that family as a unit, adapting the allotment system to them. That is only the small half of the job. The second half of the job consists in arranging these families in such groups that you will avoid this scattered and unsocial system where the wives are alleged to go crazy because they don’t have a chance, in washing dishes, to talk across the fence to the lady in the next yard. I have to speak of ideal conditions to illustrate my point. You fre- quently find in the West a river bottom of good commercial land not needing irrigation, where the benches stretch back into fine grazing land. Instead of making a little village and then letting a lot of Indians live in there, or instead of this outstretched system, suppose you were to allow a bunch of these families to live there along this river for 10 miles, giving each family enough land for farming and giving them a livelihood and what grazing land they needed back on the benches, there you have a perfectly practicable working social lan. You have people just the right distance apart so they don’t utt into each other, and yet near enough to talk to each other. In the center of the village you could have a place for a school and church, and you would have some place where they can have some social side of life, some economic problems. This is a very crude and general outline, Mr. Chairman, of what an allotment system, based on the social and economic needs of the Indians, would amount to. Mr. Grorcr. May I ask right there, do you draw your conclusions from an application of these principles anywhere? Mr. VatentTine. To some extent, Mr. George. We tried to apply them at Pala, Cal. Mr. Grorer. Where is that? Mr. Vauentine. In southern California. It is about 100 miles south of Riverside, I think; and I think some work, and very good work, has been done on some of the reservations in Washington. Mr. Grorce. Do you know anything about the Canadian usages? Mr. Vatentine. Very little. | Mr. Gzorcz. Do you know whether anything of this sort is done in Canada? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. Mr. Gzorcz. That is all, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Take the allotment system of 160 acres to every man, woman, and child, as has been practiced heretofore. What do you say of it? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is dead wrong, and I think also the allotment of timber lands is absolutely wrong. Mr. Burcu. Why? Mr. Vatentinr. You mean the first or second? Mr. Burcu. I mean both. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2175 Mr. Vatentine. I think I have covered the first somewhat, as I have already stated, but there is one point I did not cover. This idea of giving every man, woman, and child 160 acres means, usually, that the child’s allotment has no relation either socially, economi- cally, or geographically, which is one of the big points, in the allot- ment of the others. You will find the child’s allotment on these reservations away off over the hill. It is simply a piece of prop- erty that has no relation other than what it may sometime ultimately bring to the life of the child, and it knocks to smithereens, before it has a fair chance, this family life. Mr. Burcu. Is it not a bid for the mercenary greed—the greed of all kinds of land grabbers? Mr. VaLentTINE. Yes, sir. It is like leaving your money lay around in 16 different pocketbooks. Mr. Burcu. Suppose, as has been advocated by some, allotments of 160 acces were made to each man, woman, and child, and then the removal of all restrictions—I believe there is a bill in Congress for that purpose, subjecting all these lands to taxation, as in the Clapp rider—what would be the fate of the Indian child with 160 acres of land subject to taxation, and so forth, in your opinion? Mr. Vatentine. The only protection between that child and noth- ing would be the wisdom of its parents. ‘ r. Burcw. Suppose the parents were not any more capable than the child itself? Mr. Vatentine. Well, then, I suppose you might as well allot the Jand to the first white man who came along and wanted it. Mr. Burcu. You have described that device of allotments, and I have asked you what you thought of ailotments. I now ask you what you think of the proposition of hoarding up in the Treasury, or keeping in the Treasury, tribal funds after they have, once been recovered at a rate of interest of 5 per cent, or whatever is paid ? Mr. Vatentine. I think they should not be retained there as tribal funds; that they should be segregated to individual credits at the earliest possible day. Mr. Burcu. Unrestricted and unguarded ? Mr. Vatentinz. No, sir; most carefully restricted and guarded. Mr. Burcu. Divided among individual Indians pro rata and then placed to their individual account, but carefully safeguarded after that ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Kept where? . Mr. Vatentine. Either retained in the Treasury of the United States or, under certain conditions, placed in banks for use under supervision by the agent, or in still other cases turned over to plainly competent Indians. — Mr. Burcu. How about bonded trustees—trustees giving the strictly required bond—to keep these moneys out at interest among the people, or something of that kind? . Mr. Vatentine. It is simply a question of method, of securing reliable trustees. Rete ; Mr. Burcu. Suppose, instead of a division of these funds, it should be found that certain of the tribe are fortunate in not being ill, diseased, or anything of that sort, while others were diseased and had bad conditions and were destitute, under the same circumstances 2176 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. or similar circumstances, to those we call our indigent poor in the white man’s government—don’t you think these latter would have a special claim upon the tribal funds? Mr. VALEentiINE. That is largely a question of law—as to how that money was taken. Mr. Burcu. That is what I am asking. Mr. Vatentine. It may be different in different cases, but if the iaw simply put the money to the credit of the whole tribe, I should) say that it belonged equally to the members. ; Mr. Burcu. Take, for instance, the White Earth Indian Tribe. It is assumed or claimed here they have about $4,000,000 in the Treas- ury belonging to them. It is found, I understand, or been discovered: by the committee, that a large number of them are diseased and des- titute, and that they apparently have no way of getting along, being old; in other words, they are indigent poor and diseased as well as poor. Would you or would you not think it desirable to have from those tribal funds provision first made for that class of people and their maintenance before you segregated this amount, as you term it? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir; I am glad you raised that point. FT would do that, and I would also segregate enough for proper distri- bution on the theory that the tribe as a whole has the same attitude to its weaker or less fortunate individuals as a family has to its weaker children. : Mr. Burcu. Or the Government to its indigent poor ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; some form like Lloyd-George insurance should be applied. - Mr. Burcu. How would you go to work to apply all these theories? Would you do it through the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior, or would you have some board of members for each particular tribe or some general board for all the tribes, making a geneal work or study of this? Mr. Vatentine. J think the thing will never be done at all, but it has to be done if the honor of the Government is to be preserved, but J think it will never be doné—as I have seen things since I have been in the Indian service—until public opinion is so awakened that Con- gress will proceed upon some agency, either external to the Indian Bureau or within it, or in the failure of Congress to act, some private individuals take. hold and establish a proper foundation of some sort, because the Indian service needs to-day studies made of its con- dition which would cost, probably, from the start two hundred thou- sand or three hundred thousand dollars a year if we were really tackling the thing right, and that would mean a number of millions, if it drew 5 per cent as a capital fund. We are trying to meet the condition in an almost futile way by asking for some strengthenin of the force from the present Congress. But see what happens? You and the committee are familiar with conditions out at White Earth. What are we fighting tooth and nail for to-day? To save the district agents among the Five Civilized Tribes in Oklahoma an appropriation of $100,000 for these district agents. There have been lots of things done in Oklahoma in the past in the way of adminis- tration that were not necessary, but when I went down there three or four years ago into the full-blood section of the Choctaw district I found, under cover of the idea that the Five Civilized Tribes were all civilized, a bunch of as backwoods Indians as there are in the WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2177 country, with nothing ever done for them in the way of health; no people had ever been among them to teach them to farm. They had facilities there, and with a little right kind of encouragement they could have had something, but nothing substantial had ever been done for them except in a sort of haphazard way, and I suppose to-day there are probably 10.000 or 15,000 Indians among the Five Civilized Tribes in that condition, and there are 30,000 to 36,000 altogether of still restricted Indians in these tribes needing care as much as any Indians elsewhere in the country, and the so-called dis- trict agents, who are nothing but superintendents, such as we have elsewhere in the country presiding over the affairs of restricted In- dians in two or three counties, when taken away will leave conditions in each of these counties—and there are 16 of these agents—every one of which will run White Earth hard in the way of scandal when taken away, and yet instead of having this problem appreciated either by Congress or the people of this country—and I do not hesi- tate to say by the administration itself, so far as I represent that—-I mean the administration of Indians affairs itself—that instead of being able to put my time on some of these basic questions that I have been outlining to-day in answer to your questions. I am fighting not for contructive good, but to prevent the taking away of 16 men, the taking away of whom will bring about just such conditions as at White Earth. In other words, there is not only no indication of a real honest effort on the part of people to come forward and do some- thing really constructive along social lines that I have pointed out, but there is a serious effort to take away what little incomplete, puny defenses we have. You will execuse me for showing a good deal of feeling in this matter. I am going into it at a great deal of length, but I think it is quite pertinent to the general testimony you are bringing out. Mr. Burcu. Here is the term, “the vice of control that can not let go because of certain laws and things.” What do those things mean? Politics? Can we get down to plain language and talk about politics in this connection, whether they have any bearing upon these Indian affairs? Mr. Vatentine. Well, if it is proper. Mr. Burcu. I would like to know. Mr. Vatentine. If the committee wants to know, and I am in duty bound under oath to answer questions, I will say right straight out from the shoulder that politics are back of this agency matter. Mr. Burcu. Tell me, if you will, for the benefit of this committee, what hand politics seem to have in these Indian affairs, in whatever direction. : 4 Mr. Vatentine. As I described it to you the other day, it pertains in this subtle way and produces a thing that all men may know, but none perhaps can prove. But, as I explained the other day, I can not put my hand on any man who has come to me and made me what would appear right on the face of it a wrong proposition in the way of trying to influence my action, because people who do that sort of thing are usually too skillful to approach that sort of thing, and it is possible that I may have enough reputation left. after being in the Indian Service for seven years, to make some people think I wouldn’t be susceptible to that kind of approach. But what- ever the facts may be as to that it is my duty as Commissioner of 2178 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Indian Affairs, it seems to me, and as a servant of the people of the United States, to run the Indian Office wide open to the light of day, letting everything that is done be a matter of public record and to let any private person at all times have access to our files, so there will not be anything hidden, no dark corners, everything brought as far as possible to the light of day. In that connection 1t is equally proper for a citizen of the United States, whether he be John Jones, from the backwoods of Virginia, or a member of some administrative department, or a Member of the House of Representatives, or a Senator of the United States, or a judge of some court, to come and ask for information or make certain statements to me. Since we are running the thing in a democratic way—I am using a small “d” because the office is not in politics—as long as we are running the office in that way, whoever comes in ; ; The Cuairman. To set you entirely right: By “democratic” you mean being in touch with the people of the United States? Mr. Vatentine. True popular government. The Cuarrman. And not in any partisan sense? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. I might make it clearer. Mr. Grorcr. You have made it perfectly clear. Mr. Vatentinr. Now, the people who are interested in Indian affairs do not go, as a matter of fact, to John Jones in the back- woods of Virginia; they go usually to somebody who is supposed to be in political life, either in some department or in Congress, and that man or that Member comes into the office and says in regard to some action, “I don’t think such and such a thing should be done for such reasons.” I have laid down the general rule, which I think is fair, that a Member of Congress or a Senator is at least deserving as much consideration as any other citizen of the United States, and I have to look into that. Now, there is a perfectly simple and direct way by which later on:any administrative officer, no matter how keen he may be or how anxious he may be, not only to do right, but to do it at the right time and as soon as possible, sometimes wakes up a little later on and finds he has been delayed weeks and even years in accomplishing something because so many things that he has to look up and verify are put in his track, and that is one of the broad avenues of all political influence. Mr. Burcu. Let me see if I understand you. Your information from your own sources and your own judgment tell you that a cer- tain thing ought to be done on White Earth ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. A Member of Congress or of another branch of the executive part of the Government, or prominent citizen, or a mem- ber of some committee, comes in and asks you for certain information about White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And another person comes in and asks you if you ought not to do this, and you have to inquire. r. Vatentine. And “Won’t you please delay action until you can look into the reasons for this,” and so on. . Burcu. Now, by reason of such influence or such action as that—perhaps illegitimate, perhaps with evil design—you are de- layed in your administrative action in doing the right thing at the WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2179 right time, and you do the right thing after it is too late? Is that the idea? Mr. 'Vatentine. Something to that effect. Ae Burcu. What other, if any, stronger attempts are made than that? Mr. Vatentine. Well, as I say, Judge, I don’t recall ever throwing a man out of my office for the particular kind of offenses we are talking about now. Mr. Burcu. I don’t mean corrupt. Mr. Vatentine. But if a person came in and would come and say, flat-footed, that political reasons should make me wait, that man ought to be thrown out. Mr. Burcu. You mean in a partisan, political sense? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. But it does not come up in that way. Jt comes up in these insidious ways. Mr. Burcu. I will go to the second vice you speak of. The Cuairman. Do you depart from this subject now? Mr. Burcu. I was going to. If the chairman desires to ask any questions, however, I will be very glad to wait. The Cuarrman. Perhaps it would be better to let you go on with your own thought. Mr. Burcu. I would be very glad to postpone that if the Chair desires to ask some questions. ; The Cuarrman. There are some questions that I would like to ask on some of the matters that we have gone over, and perhaps it would be as well to do it here, if you are going to leave this subject. Mr. Burcu. I am afraid I am prolonging the subject. The Cuarrman. You are getting along very nicely, Judge. Mr. Valentine, I have been looking into this letter and memorandum more carefully. I refer to the letter of December 10, 1909, ad- dressed by you to Secretary Ballinger, and I do not yet make the connection between the letter and the memorandum. For instance, the letter is dated December 10; the memorandum appended to it is dated two months earlier. Now, how does it happen that a memo- randum is appended to a letter written two months after it was? Mr. Vatentrine. I should judge in this way, Mr. Chairman, that our filing system is such that all matters pertaining to a subject are pub together. I assume there are a great many other matters in the le in which Mr. Meritt found this paper, are they not, Mr. Meritt? Mr, Mertrr. Yes, sir. . é The Cuairman. This, then, would not be the only thing in that le? : Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Is the rest of the file here? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know. Mr. Meritt simply showed me that: I have not seen it since I wrote it. Mr. Menirr. I have part of the White Earth file here. The Cuamman. Have you the part giving this correspondence complete? I assume that these two papers do not constitute the whole matter so far as your files show it? . Mr. Mertrr. We have a great deal of correspondence on the White Earth situation. . ; The Cuarrman. And relative to this particular feature of it, I suppose ? 2180 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. I think the committee ought to be able to see the whole correspondence. Another question on that line. The file mark, Mr. Meritt—you are probably the best judge about these mat- ters—in ink is stamped 39,907; then followed by a dash made with a red lead pencil and by a stamp in pink ink, 1911, White Earth. Now, how is it that it is stamped 1911, having been written and put in the files in 1909? : Mr. Mertrv. I could not tell you that, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. That is true of both Mr. Grorer. Is that the file number? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. a The Cuarrman. The file number is 39907, and on both the memo- randum, as you see, the date, or figures at least, 1911, are stamped in different kind of ink with a stamp on the margin. Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. You can not explain that, you say? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Would the file clerk, R. H. G., probably be able to explain it? Mr. Menirr. If he recalls the circumstances he possibly could. He is filing hundreds of papers every day. The Cuarrman. Who is he? Mr. Merirr. I would have to look that up in the office to find out just who that is. I can let you know to-morrow. The Crarrman. And in reference to the other files pertaining to that particular matter, you say you have them here? Mr. Merirr. I have part of the White Earth file here. The Cuarrman. In connection with that particular letter and those dates upon it—October and December, 1909? Mr. Burcu. I suppose the chairman means that refers to the vig- orous prosecution of the work? The CuHarirmMan. Yes. Mr. Merrrr. This was the beginning of the file. Mr. Grorcr. Something was put on the files at that time? Mr. Merrrr. It seems to have been put in the files in 1911. Mr. Georcx. Mr. Valentine says this was put in the files for the purpose of enabling anybody who went to the files for the purpose of the bureau, and if that went on the files on October 8, 1909, or sometime in 1911, it was a somewhat tardy notification. Mr. Vatenrine. I think I can tell you. Of course I can not tell what happened in this particular case; I have not seen them since the time, but when I write a memorandum of that kind I usually. have a set of carbon copies made and sent around to the people interested who should keep a lookout. Owing to the fact that we are short of filing help, what we call our permanent files are not made up until long afterwards in the file division, and when the file is at last caught together and the whole bunch of papers are put in a permanent form they are then given a single file number of some kind. Whether that occurred in this case or not I can not tell. The testimony of the filing clerks of our office would probably throw some light ox that. cece WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2181 Mr. Georcr. But I ask in reference to the question I formerly asked. I asked you whether copies of this were sent to some one. You did not remember that. Mr. Vatentinz. I am simply telling what my custom is. Mr. Gxorgr. You said this was written to be put in the files. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gxorer. As a sort of notification to anybody interested. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and it may be held down in the land division. Mr. Georer. And it was put in the files at that time, and it would have received, if put in the files at that time, the file number of that time, would it not, or date? Mr. Vaventine. It would receive a file number whatever date it was actually reached by the filing clerk and made a permanent part of the files. Mr. Grorcr. There is a number here—39907. Mr. Vatentine. I think the filing people could tell you—— Mr. Gerorce. In black letters. Mr. VaLentrne. When that number arrived in the course of the filing process. Mr. Grorcr. Could anybody in your office determine the time of the filing of this paper by the number that is written in black figures? Mr. Vatentine. I am not familiar Mr. Grorce. 39907. Mr. Vatentine. But I should think they might be able to. Mr. Grorce. And can Mr. Meritt answer that? Mr. Merrrt. The filing clerk could tell you. The only information T have is that it was filed in the regular files in 1911, as shown by the stamp. Mr. Grorce. And not in 1909? Mr. Merrrr. It would appear it was not filed in the regular files in 1909. Mr. Georcr. And this is the paper filed in 1911, and you have no paper complete filed in 1909? Mr. Meritt. There is no evidence on that paper of it having been filed in the regular files in 1909, but it showed it was filed in 1911. Mr. Gerorcr. Would this 39907, appearing in black figures ‘evi- dently made with a machine, indicate in what series this appeared? Would it indicate at what time it was filed? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Would there be certain papers before it and certain papers after it that would indicate a date on these papers showing that this was between certain letters? Mr. Merirr. The filing system would show the letters before and the letters after. Mr. Gzorcr. Yes; 39907 is the number here. Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Gxorce. There would be 39906 and 39905, the papers preced- ing this, and then, presumably, there would be, you say, 39908 fol- lowing this and 39909 after that? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. : . : Mr. Gzorcz. So if you could determine the time of filing of these other papers that determination would determine the time of the filing of this paper ? 2182 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Merirr. That would determine the time that this particular paper reached the filing clerk. You will understand, at the begin- ning of each year we start with a new number and it runs up to over a hundred thousand. Mr. Grorce. And Mr. Valentine thinks, by the stamp number 1911 in red ink here, that that would indicate that was put on the file not in 1909, but subsequently when somebody got up with the files. Mr. Vatentine. It might have been on the files all the time, Mr. George, but in the meantime not. having been made a part of the final filing system until that date. . Mr. Gzorce. When a paper is filed does it not receive a number at once ? Mr. Vatentine. If it goes right out to the files it receives a num- ber on that date; yes, sir. Mr. Georce. Are not papers put on the file and numbered at the time ? Mr. Vauentine. I am simply guessing—probably sent to the chief of division at that time. Mr. Georcr. But you say you put it on the files. You said that you could not remember that you sent this paper to anyone and you sent that perhaps to the Secretary in consequence of some talk or conversation, but that you did not remember having sent this to any of the individuals or giving any publicity to it except to putting it on the files where anybody could get it. When you put it on the files was it not marked in any way? Mr. Vatentine. Apparently not. 5 Mr. Grorcr. What is the practice of the office, to put a date on the paper two years afterwards—the filing date? Mr. Vaventine. If by any chance that particular paper were held in the Land Division until that case were made up, that is what would happen. Mr. Gzorcz. I would like Mr. Meritt, who brought these papers here, to show me if he has any papers about that date. I would like to see the numbers. Mr. Merirr. I don’t know whether those papers there are of that date, but these are White Earth papers. Mr. Grorcr. Please show me this kind of black numbers and this kind of pink numbers. Mr. Meritr (showing papers). This ‘is the 1909 file, 96600; this is a 1910 file, 24550; this is a 1911 file, 102577. " Mr. Georceg. Is this of the same file? Mr. Merirr. No; it is a separate file. Mr. Grorcg. That-is irrelevant. What I want is the same file. Mr. Merirr. You see that is a separate file. Mr. Grorcz. Here you have 39907, filing papers. Does that be- long to land or what, what correspondence, what file, the corre- spondence of what department, or correspondence of anything? I would like to get this date, what that 39907 means? Mr. Menrrv. I can get you the blue card and the white card from pe ene room, which will show you the date on which this paper is ed. Mr. Grorcr. I would rather have some other papers, of files show- ing what that signifies—some before or after. niRaencOti WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2183 Mr. Merrrr. This is a complete correspondence in itself. This is not based on a letter that came into the office. It is a letter written by the commissioner, and is not based on any particular letter. Therefore this is a complete letter. You can get the original of the letter in the department files, and if they answered their corre- spondence would be with the carbon letter and attached to this. Mr. Georce. If you had correspondence following this 39907, fol- lowing that number, and it belonged to some other file, would it get the next number to this, regardless of what file it should go into? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it should be in one complete file. Mr. Grorce. You have not had 39,000 letters in that file? Mr. Merrrr. Oh, no. That does not mean 39,000 letters. Mr. Grorcre. What does it mean? Does it mean the time some correspondence took place? Mr. Merrrr. That means that that is the thirty-nine thousand nine hundred and seventh letter filed during the year 1911. Mr. Gzorcr. Those letters are scattered through a variety of files? Mr. Merrrr. Should be filed under a regular serial number. The Cuarmeman. Your last answer explained to me one thing that troubled me, and that is that the file number 39907 indicates that this letter was first filed in 1911 and not in 1909. Mr. Merrrr. The stamps on the letter so indicate. The Cuarrman. Does not the file number 39907 help to locate the filing in the year 1911? Mr. Merrrr. Yes; it would indicate that these papers were filed under that number. The Cuarrman. And the year 1911 after it, of course makes that second ; that was the first filing of this paper. Mr. Merrrr. The first official filing of this paper. The Cuairman. Is it your statement that this memorandum and this letter are the only papers in your files anywhere pertaining to ee subject matter? Is that the beginning and the end of that? Mr. Mertrr. This file would indicate that these papers here are the only papers filed under 39907; otherwise they would be with that file. The Cuarrman. But that wasn’t quite the question I asked. The question I asked goes to the subject matter rather than to the mere file number. And does not your file somewhere show additional communications which are really a part of this subject matter. For instance, did not the Secretary probably in some way or other ac- knowledge the receipt of that letter? : Mr. Merrrr. I should think that the Secretary would have written a letter in answer. The Cuarrman. Where would that letter be? Mr. Merirr. It ought to be with that file there. The Cuarmrman. But it is not, and not being here where do you think it is? Mr. Merrrr. If a letter was written it is on file somewhere. I can find out from our filing division, and also from the files of the Interior Department whether the Secretary answered that letter. The Cuamman. And if the commissioner wrote other letters on this same subject matter they are not on this file, and therefore they exist on some other file. How can we find that out? 2184 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Merrrr. I can bring you all the White Earth files we have on these various matters. - The Cuamman. We would like to have the whole of that corre- spondence. : : Mr. Grorce. Just one other question. What file did this come out of? I want to know where that paper came from? Was it a public file? y My. Merirr. Yes, sir. : . Mr. Grorcr. Have you any other kind of a file than the public file in the bureau? Mr. Merirr. We have a semioflicial file. Mr. Grorcr. Was this at any time in the semioflicial file? Mr. Merrrv. I could not tell; I am not connected with the filing division. Mr. Gerorce. Are the letters in the semiofficial file marked in any way? Do they receive any numbers or any indication made showing when they are put: there? Mr. Merrrr. I could not tell you, Mr. George. Mr. Grorcr. Will you answer that, Mr. Valentine? Mr. Vatentine. On the semiofficial files? Mr. Georce. Yes. / Mr. Vatentine. They are indexed with a card index and put there. Mr. Gzorcr. Are there any numbers put upon them or dates put upon them to indicate when they are filed? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know; I think so. May I suggest that the filing clerk of the office and the person who is in charge of the semi- official file of the land division, or anyone else in that division who may have knowledge, be called by the committee. _ The Cuairman. I have learned that soon after this letter was written, or about that time, an agent was sent to White Earth, and that he made voluminous reports in connection with this matter, and we ought also to see that. That report was made by Mr. Farr, and it certainly ought to be somewhere near these in the filing order. Mr. Mertrr. We also have reports from Mr. Linnen on that sub- ject. . Mr. Georce. I think we ought to have these filing clerks that Mr. Valentine has spoken of also. _ The Cuarrman. I agree with you. Whoever R. H. G. is ought to be able to explain something about it. Mr. Grorce. Just one other matter, Mr. Valentine. I presume it is a fair question. What prompted you to bring that here at this time— this part from the files? Mr. Vatenttne. When I sat down in this chair I am now sitting in to-day, Mr. Meritt handed me that paper and said something like this: “Do you recall this?” and I took it and looked at it and said “No; but I am very glad to have it,” and I showed it to Judge Burch and said it would be a useful thing to put in the record to show some of the history of the case. eon Prong. What prompted you to bring this paper here, Mr. eritt ¢ Mr. Merirt. A clerk of the land division had a lot of White Farth matters on his desk. Mr. Grorcr. Who? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2185 Mr. Merrrr. A clerk in the land division—Mr. Hall. Mr. Grorcs. That is one of the clerks who will come here? I mean this particular one? Mr. Mertrr. He is not a file clerk; he is a correspondence clerk. Mr. Grorce. I think we would like to see Mr. Hall also. Mr. Merrrr. Mr. Hall asked me what he should do with the White Earth file. It had been accumulating, and he wanted to know if it should go back in the files, and I told him inasmuch as the White Earth situation was under investigation it would be better not to put these papers back in the files, because we might have to call for them. I asked him to let me look over the papers, and in looking through the papers I got those papers there which I considered of some im- portance and might be of some information to the committee, and I kept those papers and told him to hold the other papers on his desk until the investigation was finished. Mr. Grorce. Would they not have been all together? Mr. Merrrr. All the papers? Mr. Grorcs. Yes. Mr. Merrrr. On the White Earth situation ? Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Merrrr. Under the filing system down there I don’t suppose that they should. Mr. Grorcr. They should not have been together? Mr. Merirr. No, sir. Mr. Grorcez. Did these constitute only part of the file? Mr. Merirr. That is all of that file, but he had files there with dozens of different papers. Mr. Gzorcr. Different files? Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Gerorce. This is all he had of this file? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. Mr. Gxzorcr. Would there likely be any other papers relating to this matter in any other file, the semiofficial file you speak of? Mr. Mertrr. I could not answer that question, Mr. George. Mr. Grorce. Did you notice there were only two papers here? Mr. Menrtrr. I did not notice that wasn’t filed until 1911 until you called my attention. Mr. Grorcr. Did you notice when you took this and thought it would be useful here that there were only two papers here? Mr. Merrrr. No, sir; I did not notice it particularly. Mr. Gxorcs. This simply sufficed for the purpose. You did not go any further into the matter? Mr. Merrtr. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. May this paper have been on any other file at any other time? I mean, do you recollect whether in the semiofiicial file, whatever it is called, that numbers are put upon the papers put in such a file? meas Mr. Merrrr. It is not my habit to go through semiofficial files. Mr. Gzorcz. But you knew something about it? It might not be a habit, but you knew something about it. Mr. Merirt. I see the correspondence passing through the office. Mr. Grorce. But you had papers from that file? Mr. Merrrr. I may have had papers. é 73822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-3, vol 2——43 2186 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grorcr. You had this paper and other papers? La Mr. Menirr. It is from the public files; that number there indicates that was a public file. Crt ee Mr. Grorcr. But you never saw a paper from the semiofficial file? Mr. Mertrt. I undoubtedly have, Mr. George, but I don’t recall it. Mr. Grorcr. Did you see any numbers on it indicating when it was filed ? Mr. Merrrr. I did not pay particular attention to these papers, and I don’t recall having seen those papers in the semiofficial files. Mr. Grorce. You are a lawyer and accustomed to the marks of these papers, and I should suppose if a number identifying the file and the time were absent from a paper that it would be a matter that you would notice, and if there were a file that did not have such num- bers on I should suppose you would notice that? What is your judg- ment about that? Mr. Merirr. I should notice it as a usual thing. The papers that I see have files on them. Mr. Grorcs. Have numbers? Mr. Merirr. Yes; have numbers. Mr. Grorcr. Among these clerks who come here I think we should see Mr. R. H. G. or R. H. C., whose initials are in red stamp here. What is his name—R. H. C. or R. H. G.? Mr. Merirr. We will see if it is either R. H. C. or R. H. G., and ask him to come before the committee whenever you wish, Mr. George. Mr. Grorce. If you please. The Cuarrman. Passing from that for the time being, and coming back to the question of attorneys for Indian interests, Mr. Valentine, did the enumeration of the various kinds of attorneys made by Judge Burch, with the assistance of some of the rest of us, include all attorneys who serve Indians in any capacity ? Mr. Vatentine. The only other one, or different class I can think of, is a man known as the attorney for the Peublo Indians, Mr. Francis C. Wilson, at Santa Fe; otherwise I think all attorneys would be included in this on an annual salary and those who have a contract with a contingent fee. The Cuarrman. Are permits given or is authority given some- times to some attorney or attorneys by the department, or by the bureau, to go out and make contracts for service with the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Only on application, sir. The Cuarrman. On application, is such authority given? Mr. Va.entine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Do you know any of the attorneys who are now acting under such authority as that? Mr. Vatentine. I think Messrs. Kappler & Merillat are acting as attorneys for the Osage Indians, and I think the firm of Servin, McGowan & Mohan had a contract. The Cuarrman. Who gives them this authority? Mr. Vatenting. The Secretary of the Interior. The Cuarrman. Of his own motion, or how is he moved to give them this authority ? Mr, Vatenting. The usual custom is that the attorneys applying submit their application to the Indian Office, and the Indian Office sends it to the Secretary with their recommendation. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2187 The Cuarrman. Is that authority general in its nature, giving them the right to go to any Indian reservation and make a contract with the Indians on that reservation for their legal service? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; it is usually specific, for some particular proposed reservation, for some particular purpose. The Cuairman. Had Kappler & Merillat any authority except on the Osage Reservation, any such authority as I spoke of? Mr. VaentINnE. I think they had such authority on Ponca. The Cuairman. In what State is Ponca? Mr. Vatentine. Oklahoma. The Cuamman. And with reference to the contracts they make with the Indians, are they subject to review; and if so, by whom? Mr. VaLentine. By the Indian Office and the Secretary of the Interior. The Cuairman. And are they so reviewed? Mr. VaentiIne. Yes. The Cuarrman. And O. K’d before they become vital or va.id? Mr. Vatentrne. Yes, sir. The CuairmMan. How many such contracts have they now? Mr. Vatentine. This particular firm? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. They have the Osage contract. I am not sure as to the state of the Ponca contracts, for which they are applicants. They were at one time, I believe, attorneys for the Omaha Indians, were they not, Mr. Sloan? Mr. Stoan. They have a case pending before the Court of Claims in which their attorneys are associated with Hiram Chase. Mr. Vaventine. I don’t recall any others they have. There has been an application for some time with the Crows. The CuHarrman. That matter is still in abeyance, or has it been ruled on adversely ? Mr. Vatentine. It has been ruled on adversely, I think; and I am reminded they have a contract with the Pawnees, or an application for a contract. The Cuarrman. Which has not yet been acted upon? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know. The Cuatrman. In these cases—for instance, in the case of the Osages, to what extent were the Osages consulted as to whether they wanted these men as their attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. I assume they associated with the tribal council of the Osages. ree The Cuarrman. Which, in your judgment, is no negotiation at all? Mr. Vatentine. That is substantially the way I feel about it. The Cyarrman. You wouldn’t like to use the word “ farce,” because it is a very strong word—sort of nonjudicial expression—but it comes as near describing your idea of the weight that ought to be given to the so-called Indian council as any word you can think of, does it not? Mr. Vatentine. I wouldn’t dispute the point. ; The Cuarrman. To put it more genteelly, you would say, in your judgment, an Indian council is not entitled to any serious considera- tion ? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is entitled simply to such consideration, Mr. Chairman, as the knowledge which the parties may possess, 2188 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. through its officials, have of the character and capacity of the indi- viduals making up the councils. The Cuairman. But when you take into consideration the means, or rather the lack of means, for giving notice of it, and when you take into consideration the indisposition of many Indians to attend it even if they had notice, and when you take into consideration also the tremendous inequality of the Indians to give expression to their views and to influence such a body as that, on the whole you are com- pelled to the conclusion that the Indian council is entitled to very little, if any, consideration ? Mr. Vatentine. I think yes, sir; and I think I would make this additional statement, that as long as Indians are not considered com- petent, that the Indian council should be discontinued. ; The Cuarrman. Well, are there any other attorneys with those permits from the Secretary of the Interior or from your office, or both, who have authority to go out and negotiate contracts with the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I can not recall any, Mr. Chairman. We have been going very slow in the matter, because I have been urging this general enabling act. Before there was any enabling act it left the tribe before the Court of Claims, and that has led to this very de- lightful custom, from the point of view of certain attorneys, of hav- ing a neat little contract, and it is being rather against their interests to push for such an enabling act. The more difficulties there are in the way and the longer time it takes the more their services are needed, and I felt it was getting what, on the whole, was rather vi- cious not to approve a contract with attorneys until there were either a general enabling act or a specific enabling act for the particular tribe in question. The Cuarrman. Have you any recollection of the terms for fees which Kappler & Merillat had with the Osages? Mr. Vatentine. I think their contract with the Osages is $5,000 a year, and it is to expire shortly. As to the others terms of the contract, as to what work they should do, I do not recall. The Cuarrman. The five thousand a year, I assume, is in the way of a retainer and for such general work? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The CHarrman. As they may do? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And probably has in it a provision that if they do specific work, such as the trial of particular cases, they get addi- tional fees for that ? Mr. Vatentine. I think not; I think that covers the work. The Cuamman. You mean the tribe would be entitled to the services of the firm the whole year, even though they took all of their time for $5,000? ‘ _Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; if it is for tribal matters and not indi- Lae ee _ the CramMan. Have the Osages any pending claims against either the Government or against others? . eure Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; they have. The Cuamman. And five thousand would include the prosecution of those claims? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t believe it would. The Cruamman. Or the defense of them? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2189 Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Meritt informs me that Kappler & Mariallat have a separate contract of what is known as the Osage civilization fund claim. The Cuatrman. Do you know what the per cent is? Mr. Vatentine. He tells me that it is 10 per cent up to a certain point, and then probably some slight scale arrangement. I will be glad to furnish you a copy of that contract for the record. The Cuamman. It would be interesting to insert such a contract in the record. Mr. Vatentine. I realize I have not answered your full ques- tion, and I went back to do it, but it has escaped by mind now just what I had in mind. : The Cuairman. If it comes back to you just give us the benefit of it. You stated in answer to one of Judge Burch’s questions that the Indian Bureau found it extremely difficult to make any addition in the way of constructive legislation for the benefit of the Indian. Indeed, I think you said it was practically impossible to do that; and not only that, but you found it very difficult to retain the good things you had in the law? Mr. VaLenTINeE. Yes, sir. The CuarrmMan. That is a fair statement of the summary of what vou said? Mr. Varentine. That might be a little strong on the first point. We have a good deal of very good legislation. The Cuairman. But vou found it difficult to get it, I think, was my statement? Mr. Vatentine. Very likely. The Cuarrman. And as a particular instance of the difficulty you expressed in retaining that which was good you mentioned a fight which you now have to save district agents in Oklahoma? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. Now, what other agents have vou in Oklahoma besides district agents? The Cuatrman. At Muskogee we have a man known as the union agent. He has charge of the individual affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes—the Choctaws, the Chickasaws, the Cherokees, the Creeks, and the Seminoles. He has charge of all their individual matters, and at Muskogee is the office of the Commissioner of the Five Civ- ilized Tribes, who has charge chiefly of tribal mattters, now under Mr. Kelsey, the union agent. having that very large territory to cover, involving about 36,000 still restricted Indians, and with very complicated questions, involving oil and gas and coal mining and forestry, etc., as well as the problems of health and schools and industries. There are 16 district agents and 4, I believe, super- vising district agents, who correspond to subagents in other parts of the country. On the Pine Ridge Reservation, which is about the size of Massachusetts and which has about 7,000 Indians, there is an agent superintendent, as he is now called, and under him the reservation is divided into five districts with five subagents. These district agents in Oklahoma are like those subagents at Pine Ridge, only there are 7,000 Indians on Pine Ridge and five subagents. Each subagent has fewer Indians than the 16 subagents in Okla- homa; with 36,000 fully restricted Indians. and some beyond that whose restrictions are not fully removed. 2190 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. Coming back to the district agents in Oklahoma, as I understood you, or as I recall what you said, it was, in sub- stance, that if they were removed from office it would result in scandalous conditions as bad or worse as now exist at White Earth? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. ‘ The Cuairman. What are their duties at this time? Mr. Vauentrine. Their duties at this time are concerned chiefly with probate mattters. The Cuarrman. That is, the estates of deceased persons? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir; and then they pass on all removals or restrictions, such as that removing at White Earth by drawing the blood line. The Cuarrman. Declarations of competency ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and they pass on all leases, and they have office hours there at certain towns and other towns there among the Indians advising them as to leases and patents and sales and appraising lands and doing a thousand and one acts that an agent should do in close touch with the Indians. The Cuarrman. And if they are removed-explain, if you please, fully why the conditions would be changed so adversely to the In- dians. Mr. Vatentine. The superintendent at Muskogee, whcse duties keep him there most of the time and could not by any means cover the field, would then have no accurate knowledge from the ground as to local conditions to depend upon. He would have to depend either upon making a trip out to some place himself or the Indians coming up to Muskogee and explaining things to the probate judges. You might recall that an act of Congress, or possibly it might have been in connection with the enabling act, placed minor Indian chil- dren of the restricted class under jurisdiction of the probate courts of Oklahoma. The probate judges had a vast mass of work besides Indian work and found it very difficult to handle all these cases. Sometimes they did not know much about Indian business, and I believe there were some rather startling cases of corruption also, and at first the probate judges. rather resented the presence of the dis- trict agents, but latterly they have worked in great harmony, and I feel confident you would get statements from almost all the pro- bate judges in Oklahoma that if the district agents were removed they would have no adequate evidence, such as the district agents could supply them in handling the matters of these minors. The Cuatrman. The Indian minors do not know how to proceed in such cases and would be mere figureheads, in no way prepared to take care of their rights? Mr. Vauentine. Precisely. sir: and being the children of incom- petent Indians or because still restricted, their natural guardians in most cases would not be able to give them that protection and help. The Cuatrman.- And by comparing the probable outcome of their removal with White Earth conditions, I understand you to mean that if these district agents are removed from office then those Indian heirs and incompetents will become the victims of designing white people or mixed bloods who know the situation and would take ad- vantage of it at the expense of the minor Indian children ? Mr. Vatentixe. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2191 The Cuarrman. And in that way will, for little or nothing, get possession of their property ? Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. And in your judgment these district agents stand between those—I don’t know just what to call them; call them bar- gain sharks or sharks, if you please—the district agent stands be- tween them and their victims? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How have the district agents performed their ditires up to this time in that regard? Have they been loyal to their trust ? , Mr. Vatentine. On the whole, yes, sir; they have done exceed- ingly good work. The Cuarrman. Then do you know what has been the reason given for removing them from the service? Mr. Vatentine. I can not quite fathom the reason. I have called the committee’s attention to the hearings.before the subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House in which this hearing represents about a third of the testimony that was taken—they did not print it all—in which some statements about the district agents are set forth quite at length, if you would like the reference. The Cuarrman. Please put it on the record. Mr. Vatentine. It shows statements made by various persons. The document to which I refer is entitled “ Hearings before a sub- committee of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House of Rep- resentatives.” It is dated on the inside January 17, 1912, and the date of adjournment is not stated. The Cuarrman. Give the date of the particular hearings and the ages. - Ae. VaLenTINE. Yes, sir. The document has not, as is usual, the House document number. Beginning on page 266 and continuing to the end of the first paragraph on the top of page 324, there is much information about the district agents. The Cuarrman. What is the aggregate amount of the salaries they now represent and the expenses incident to their offices? Mr. Vatentine. Their salaries, sir, are about—I think they are all $1,800 apiece for the 16 district agents; the supervising agents, I think, get $2,000. . The Cuarrman. Does that expense come out of Indian Affairs? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; it is a direct appropriation from the Fed- eral Treasury by Congress, making $100,000. The Cuarrman. And is the attempt to remove them from the serv- ice now through the appropriation bill or by direct legislation ? Mr. Vauentine. The appropriation bill, as reported to the House from the full committee, leaves out that provision of $100,000. The Cuarmman. Makes no appropriation for any of them? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. . The Cuarrman. The failure to appropriate for them would neces- sarily eliminate them from the service? Mr. Vatentrine. Absolutely, sir. . Mr. Gzorcr. You say that testimony was before a subcommittee? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Grorcr. Are the names of the members of that committee there? 2192 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Hon. John H. Stevens, chairman, Hon. Scott Ferris, and Hon. Charles H. Burke. . The Cuarrman. But they have made no recommendation or report other than the action in reporting the bill, have they ? Mr. Vatentine. There was a report made in reporting the bill, but whether it mentions this fact or not I do not recall. We will try our best to get the item on in the Senate, hoping it may be retained in conference. The Cuarrman. In answer to another of Judge Burch’s questions, or a series of them, you explained how political things reached the Indian Bureau, and, as I understand that statement, it was unusual for those who are interested in the final action to apes before the bureau themselves, but their local representatives in the House or the Senate or in some public office usually made representations to the head of the Indian Bureau or perhaps to the Secretary ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And gave such reasons as they could why this action should not be taken or that action should be? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Of course, you will understand that a very large amount of that is absolutely legitimate and that it is ab- solutely impossible in the time to divide what are bona fide reasons from what are not. The Cuarrman. Is there any such political influence back of this movement with reference to the district agents in Oklahoma? Mr. Vatentine. Well, of course, there is a vague feeling there is; I don’t know that I could prove it. The CHarrman. Let me be perfectly clear and frank with you about it. As I get your view of the matter it amounts to this: That the officeholder, whether he be Congressman or Senator, is urged by his constituents to adopt their view of matters, and that either by the weight of their arguments or fear of their influence he adopts their view, and then tries to impose his view on the officer in question. Mr. Vatentinz. I think that is a fair statement of the philosophy of the situation. The Cuarrman. Mr. Valentine, to what extent is the person who administers the affairs of the Indian Bureau affected in any way? In other words, to what extent is he a free agent in carrying out his views and his policies in the office of which he is the head 2 Mr. Vatentrne. If I don’t answer your question just as I want to, I hope you will keep after me, but this perhaps gives the gist of it. It is up to the administrative officer at the head of the Indian Bureau to have a reason for everything he does, to give to anyone who may wish to ask for it. In other words, I am not complaining about:it; it is perfectly proper that should be done, but it sometimes holds up administrative action until you have satisfied everybody that you have reasons for action, so that an act which is all right to one’s self and the reasons put in the record and stand there for anyone who runs to read, the action may be delayed weeks or months while he is satisfying this person or that person that he has reasons. Does that answer your question ? The Carman. Let me be perfectly specific. Have things of that character prevented action in the White Earth case or have they tended to prevent action there? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2193 Mr. Vatentine. I don’t recall such direct actions of that kind. The things that have bothered us most in White Earth have been bills that have been introduced in Congress. For instance, the Department of Justice and the Department of the Interior working together went: up there and made a list of Indians. While we were making that list great efforts were made to get through Congress legislation which would have appointed a commission to make that list instead of the officials of the Department of Justice and the Department of the Interior. My feeling is that that commission would have been a political commission and would have been just about on the same line as the Indian council, and Judge Burch and I by every means in our Pare fought the plan of such a commission going through. Now, while that bill was up a delegation wished to come from White Earth, and that delegation consisted of some of the better full-blood Indians on the reservation, and its coming, I be- lieve, was advocated by Judge Long, of the department. It came to Washington in order to be available to explain to committees or others that side of the case. Now, I never saw them, because they never came near me, but another delegation also came here, and I heard of that by rumor around the hotels where Indian officials and Indians more or less consort in this town, that that delegation was doing everything it could to assist this legislation in going through, and its hand showed most plainly when there suddenly appeared on one of the appropriation bills an item to pay the expenses of this hostile delegation who were down here, and I fought that as long as I could, but it finally got through in spite of me. But you led me into that by asking about a specific White Earth case. I can give you a better example in connection with the Chemawa Indian School, just to give you the outlines, although I will be glad to go into details if you wish. Some time last summer or early fall a very bad condition of affairs at the Chemawa Indian School was brought to my attention, and it resolved itself. gradually into what appeared to be a fight between the superintendent and the assistant superintendent. One of the charges was that the superin- tendent had whipped some Indian girls. It later on developed that so had the assistant superintendent, and things got into a pretty bad way back and forth. After making an investigation from one of our men on the ground I felt that certain action should be necessary. Now, I suppose the files will show that the newspapers took various sides on the proposition. How the articles got into the newspapers I don’t know; I may have a guess, but I couldn’t prove it. Various Members of Congress took the part of the representative combatants, ‘so to speak. Certain philanthropic associations took the part of the various combatants, and after a long delay, due to the necessity of considering the claims and counterclaims of all these different peo- ple, the action that I felt very near the start was necessary, and necessary soon, for good, quick, sound administration, was finally taken. Even after that action was decided upon and approved by the Secretary of the Interior, and such changes made as involved his approving my action, there was still a good deal of. opposition to the action, and owing to the fact that the transfers necessary to bring about the administrative readjustments that were needed had to be made, that phase rather complicated the situation, and actual action has not yet been taken. 2194 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grorce. How long ago was the first agitation ? Mr. Vatentine. I think it was some time in the summer. The Cuairman. Where is this school located ? Mr. Varentine. In Chemawa, Oreg. The case itself presents no great difficulties, but it is a very good example of how—I am not saying that all these protests on both sides were not legitimate— but it is a good example of how the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has not what you would call a free hand. The Cuartrman. Have any Federal officeholders there, elective or appointed, interfered to delay conclusions in that case? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. The Cuarrman. Have Federal officeholders, either elective or ap- pointed, interfered in any way to bring about improper action or unwise action, or to prevent action that was wise and proper, at White Earth, or has the Indian Bureau had a free hand in dealing with that reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I think since the Department of Justice came into the case, with the exception of these bills that we feared might go through Congress, we have had a free hand. I don’t recall anything that has blocked us there. The Cuairman. Has the bureau a free hand in dealing with the Crow Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I wouldn’t like to call it free; there were so many people interested in the Crow affairs. The Cuairman. Is its administration of the affairs of the Crow Reservation complicated in any way by the interference of Federal officeholders, either appointed or elective? Mr. Vatentine. By Federal officeholders you mean local office- holders as well as those here in Washington? The Cyatrman. With a pull? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarirman, Either appointive or elective? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I don’t know of any. The Cuarrman. I don’t ask you for names; simply a general state- ment of the fact. Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know whether there has been anything of that sort or not. The Cuairman. It comes to this in the end, Mr. Valentine: You have just stated quite freely and frankly that there are a great many things connected with the administration of the Indian Office that are not as they should be, or that are as they should not be? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Now, the question is this, and I think an impor- tant one as far as the head of the office is concerned: Are those de- fects to be attributed directly to the head of the office, or is he ham- pered and circumscribed and harassed by outside political in- fluences which prevent him from putting into operation his own views, or is the policy altogether at fault? Mr. Vatentine. I think the policy is probably to be shared in this more or less. The influences, whether political, or social, or personal, undoubtedly have an effect in retarding action, directly to the in- jury of the Indians. Sometimes decisive action, even if it has minor defects, is better than leaving things up in the air. People like to know where they are, for example. Take, for instance, the question WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2195 of opening the Crow Reservation. There are many viewpoints about that, so many of them that it does not leave the commissioner free to open or not as he chooses. Congress has to do the opening. That is the authority for that. Then, again, the next big difficulty which the commissioner has is the organization. The organization of his service is such that he is hampered in doing what he should do. As we said the other day, it is spread out too thin. Then it is far from me to claim that I, being human, don’t make mistakes, and don’t do perhaps as well as some one else might do. I am simply there, I am glad to say, never having been a candidate for the job, and J am doing the best I can there, but it is very difficult at the same time; somebody else might do better. But leaving personalities out of consideration, I don’t believe, as things are to-day in the Indian Office organization, and with the attitude of an executive official in this form of government to consider not only the pros and cons that appear to him as reasonable, but the pros and cons that appear to any- one of our citizens as reasonable, whether he is a citizen out of office or in office—I don’t believe that anybody coming into the position of Commissioner of Indian Affairs could be called unhampered. I think you can call him very severely hampered. I want to say that in all candor, and I am not appealing for any courtesy or leniency as to my particular duty on the job. , The Cuarrman. And is hampered by what? Do you refer in that answer to the influence of officeholders from the particular section involved ? Mr. Va.entrne. Well, for instance, the delegation. There is a congressional delegation of Senators and Congressmen. I think there is only one Congressman from Montana who has been urging the opening of the Crow Reservation. The big stockmen on the reser- vation, however, I believe, have been exerting their influence to keep it closed, because they think they are likely to get a better range than they could if it were open. The others who have taken an interest in Crow affairs have felt that all the remaining surplus lands should be allotted, and I believe a bill was introduced looking to the allot- ment of all the surplus lands by one of the Senators from Montana— I think Senator Dixon. Now, it is impossible to say, Mr. Chairman, how much of the action of all these different interests is legitimate and what is selfish. But when I think of the Crow, I feel as blue as the crow is black, because the first thing that is needed is time and disinterestedness and capacity to sit down and find out what is best for the Crow Indians. The Cuarrman. Would that be difficult if there were no con- gressional delegation from that State and no other delegation inter- ested in it? : : Mr. Vatentrne. I think if we really had the time to think out such a problem and work it out so it would stand the test of dis- interested fire it could be done as well with a delegation as without. I am not attacking our representative system of government. The Cuatrman. I understand. Mr. Vatentine. But I am not able myself and I can not command the men able to give the study to the situation that should be given to it, and the outside people who hold no political position come in and offer this solution and that solution without, perhaps, any more ability to study economic and social problems, and some of them not 2196 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. free of the suspicion of interested motives, and then on top of that some one induces a Senator from the State to introduce a bill allot- ting all the lands of the reservation. I talked that matter over with Senator Dixon. I told him it was an absolutely vicious bill, and would turn the Crow Indians into real-estate agents instead of farmers, and the minute you pass the opening some one comes for- ward and says you are against the stockmen, who are opposed to the opening, making it a very complicated proposition. The Cuarrman. When the local things which you speak of—and by that I take it you meant persons who wish to speculate to the dis- advantage of the Indian in his property—when those local influences move through their Representatives in Congress, and those Repre- sentatives come to you and present such reasons as they have in favor of the plan they adopt—and that means, of course, Congressmen and Senators—do you feel at the same liberty to weigh their arguments for what they are really worth as if they were not Congressmen or Senators? ° Mr. Vatentine. I do, sir; absolutely. The Cuairman. Have you done so? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Then the political influence, of which I spoke, has absolutely no weight with you? Mr. Vatentine. No weight with me as political influence. The Cuarrman. And if there be fault in your administration that ought to be remedied; they are attributable and chargeable to you? Mr. Varentine. To me as against political influence; yes, sir; absolutely. The Cuatrman. That is one phase that I wanted to get to. Mr. Burcu. Would that be true higher up,-to your knowledge? Above you in the Interior Department is a higher influence? © Mr. Vatentine. Yes; I am under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Burcu. Suppose, and I am not speaking of the Secretary at all, there might be some official temporarily acting as the legal or ad- ministrative conscience of the Secretary of the Interior—in other words, as his person designated to pass upon any of these matters— should entertain a different view from yours in regard to a question that you had decided one way and should recommend to the Secre- tary to take a different view, what would be the result? Would it go to the Secretary himself, or would that person pass upon it and overrule you, or might there be delay in an appeal from your action to the Secretary in these very same matters? Mr. Vatentine. That all might happen; yes, sir. a Burcu. Does it happen? Do they disagree with you up here ? Mr. Vatentinz. Oh, yes; many times; but nobody would have any authority to overrule me unless they presented such reasons to the Secretary. _Mr. Burcu. In other words, if you disagreed with some person higher up in the department proper, it would then go to the Secre- tary himself or Assistant Secretary ? Mr. Vatentine. In time; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. In time; that is what I am getting at. That con- sumes more time, does it not? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2197 Mr. VaLenTIneE. Yes, sir; that is, without wishing to indicate that it is either good or bad. That is the result. Mr. Burcu. Natural result? Mr. Vatentine. Natural result of what you might call the duplex system, by which the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secre- tary of the Interior, and in some cases the President, all have to ass. r Mr. Burcu. Whether right or wrong, you do not have a free hand in that respect either? Mr. Vatentine. I am not in sole charge of the Indian affairs; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. I am not criticizing anybody in the Interior Depart- ne but it has a tendency to delay. It might have a tendency to elay. Mr. Vatentine. If two people have to consider a question it takes more time than for one to consider it. Mr. Burcu. One subsequent to the other. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. If it is a question of devoting so much money to a certain proposition on the Indian reservation, and you should, after this hearing of both sides pro and con, from different sources, make up your mind, decide that it was proper to use the money or not to use the money, or to use a portion of the money, either one of the three ways, and pass upon that, would that action be final? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. You would have to pass that up to the Interior De- partment ? : Mr. Vatentine. In many cases, under the law. Mr. Burcu. Suppose in the meantime there was going over you to the Interior Department some of these outside influences, the tribal attorney, the political Congressman in whose district the reser- vation was, the Senator in whose State the reservation was, or per- sons interested in what should be done, that many should get busy with whomsoever passes upon that question above you and claim a hearing, would that have a tendency to delay? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. It might delay a long time? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burocn. And then after that if he disagreed with you, it would go to the Secretary ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. It might be some time before the Secretary could hear it? Mr. Vatentine. That is all possible, Judge. ; Mr. Burcu. Does it not occur—I mean in the matter of applica- tion ? Mr. Vatentine. It is bound to occur. Mr. Burcu. Then, when the Secretary passes upon that in de- ciding in your favor or the other man’s favor, the matter is done or supposed to be done. Suppose meanwhile a Congressman gets in a bill that affects that same matter? : Mr. Vatentine. Then you have exactly what happened at White Earth when the blood line was drawn. 2198 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. I was asking the witness what might happen higher up—whether he had a free hand or not in the administration—then as to what should be done with the timber or what would be done in the interests of these Indians who had been allotted, and a bill in Congress or an act of Congress came in and upset that. Mr. Vatentine. In other words, the administrative policy, even assuming that that is finally settled, might be overturned by an act of Congress. Mr. Burcu. By the interference of Congress? Air. Vatentine. Absolutely. It has not been the policy of the Indian Office to draw the blood line, yet Congress has several times raised the blood line and in each case with disastrous results, as at White Earth, and with the civilized tribes. Mr. Burcu. Established the blood line by commission and made that conclusive? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and made it final whether the person turned out to be a man or a woman. Mr. Burcu. Just as in this White Earth matter, they proceeded with a commission to decide who were of mixed or full blood and then passed an act making the decision of that commission final? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. In those cases, what was the attitude of the Indian Office? Did it oppose the drawing of the blood line? Mr. Vatentine. It opposed it vigorously in the White Earth Res- ervation through Mr. Leupp. The Cuarrman. And the other cases? Mr. Vatentine. The other cases I have no personal knowledge. It was done in the early days and was generally handled in the de- partment. The five tribes are really under the direct jurisdiction of Department of the Interior; does »ot come fully under the Indian ce. Mr. Burcu. Let us recapitulate. The Indian Office is hampered in its actual administration by possibility of delays, while its head is gone over, while its head is out in the field and at work with subordi- nates in whose hands the work might fall? Mr. Vatentine. That might happen. Mr. Burcu. It is hampered above that by ordinarily interested citizens or a corporation ? Mr. Vatentine. Any citizen of the United States. Mr. Burcu. Setting influences at work. Mr. Vatentine. Who may wish to take a hand in the game. Mr. Burcu. It may be hampered by the action of local Congress- men or Senators? Mr. Varentine. Either legitimately, or not necessarily illegiti- mately. Mr. Burcu. It may be hampered by delay occasioned by difference of epimian among people who want to be heard—calling for a hear- ing? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. It may be hampered and delayed by difference of opinion in the legal or moral administrative conscience of the Secre- tary of the Interior, or whoever occupies that position, and the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. PEERS WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2199 Mr. Burcu. The last official carrying it into effect when it came up for approval or disapproval? Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And it may then be hampered by delay in the ability of the Secretary of the Interior to hear it—that is, to have time to reach it. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Then it may be caught while in this progress by an act of Congress—that is, a possible act of Congress or the introduc- tion of a bill? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Does it ever occur that these acts of Congress in oppo- sition, one branch to the other, as in the case of the Clapp rider, where the one branch insisted upon and delayed the other, bring about the failure of a bill or a conference? Mr. VaLentinE. That undoubtedly happens. hes Burcu. Was that not exactly the case in the Clapp rider of 1906 ? Mr. Vatextixe. I don’t recall; all I know is that it got through. Mr. Burcu. Now we were speaking of some firms of lawyers, and the firm of Kappler & Merillat was mentioned by the chairman of the committee. Kappler & Meritt? Mr. Vatentine. Merillat. Mr. Burcu. Yes; Kappler & Merillat. I might branch out a lit- tle on that. They had an arrangement with Kappler & Merillat. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then, they had a special contract for the claims against the United States in the Court of Claims? Mr. Vatentine. That is my understanding. Mr. Burcu. With a percentage arrangement as to the amount they should recover ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is, a contingent fee of so much per cent on the amount recovered ? Mr. VaLentTINne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, it seems to me they had a tribal attorneyship from some other tribe and claims from some other tribes. Now, $5,000 is the amount you get, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And that is the amount I get. Now. you work all the year around, do you not? Mr. Vatentine. I call it that. Mr. Burcu. Do you understand that this firm of attorneys placed one of their attorneys out there on the reservation—that 1s, one of their firm out there on the reservation to look after matters? ; Mr. Vatentrne. I think they have an agent out there of some kind. Mr. Burcu. What is he? What does that man do? ; Mr. Vatentine. I suppose he is their local representative; I do not know just what he does. ; : Mr. Burcu. Well, you understand that they practice law in Wash- ington ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. ae Mr. Burcu. In other words, they represent these Indians in Wash- ington ? 2200 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. But in Washington what is there to represent? If there is a special attorneyship before the Court of Claims what do they do in Washington? Do they practice law for this tribe at long range and settle difficulties out there at long range, or do they have some actual duties to perform in Washington ? Mr. Vatentinz. They come to the Indian Office a great deal. I suppose Congressmen know how much they come before Congress, and they appear before the department. Mr. Burcu. For what? Mr, Vatentine. In some of these matters; I believe their state- ments will show. Right there I will say that shortly after I became commissioner I felt dissatisfied with the showing of work made by the various tribal attorneys—I do not mean that I criticized them— but we did not have in our records things showing what they were doing and how they were earning their money. I made a suggestion to the department that such a showing be called for; I believe it was called for and considered, and I think a more careful check has been kept since. I do not know, personally, just what has been done. Mr. Burcu. Have you heard of their going out on the reservation, trying any suits, or personally interesting themselves for a certain length of time? Mr. Vatentine. This particular firm? Mr. Burcu. Any particular firm. Mr. Vatentine. I think they do, because the attorneys of the Five Civilized Tribes live among them most of the time. Mr. Burcu. I am speaking of these Washington attorneys. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know how much they go out. Mr. Burcu. It would be possible under this arrangement for Wash- ington attorneys, at the rate of $5,000 a year, to have a half dozen or even a dozen attorneyships? That would be possible if the consent of the Secretary were secured ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, indeed; there is no law against monopoly. Mr. Burcu. Is there any rule by which the Secretary limits them to one attorneyship contract? Mr. Vatentine. I know of no such rule. Mr. Burcu. Suppose the interests of one tribe conflicted with the interest of another tribe? Mr. Vatentine. Then it would be manifestly improper. Mr. Burcu. Is there any stopper on it? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I certainly should not suppose that any com- missioner or any Secretary would approve such a thing. Mr. Burcu. He might not know in advance what might arise? Mr. Vatentine. That is true, too. But, then, he has the authority to abrogate the contract. Mr. Burcu. I am trying to see whether it is a good system or a bad system; whether it is poorly paid or well paid; whether there is a chance for a big legal business in it, or whether it is a skinny sort of business that hardly pays them. Mr. Vatentrne. I think, as a lawyer, you would be better able to judge of that than I am. Mr. Burcu. I have got to get the basic facts. I am trying to find out what they receive and how much they have to do. Now, have you ‘ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION.- 2201 ever seen a statement of what they had done for the $5,000, or whether they had done $5,000 worth of work before your department? oa Vatentine. I have never had time to make a personal study of that. : Mr. Burcu. Has anybody? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. That is one of the things J had in mind in having them called upon for a statement. Mr. Burcu. But if a statement comes and you have not time to look it over it does not do any good, does it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Although it-might be a little check? Mr. VALENTINE. It might have a little moral effect upon consci- entious men. Mr. Meritt informs me that when they ask for their salary they file a statement. Mr. Burcu. Of what they:have done? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have you ever expressed any opinion in regard to the character of this work; that is, the persons engaged in this character of work—not individually, but as a class? Mr. Vaventine. In a recent speech I made a general statement about them as a class. Mr. Burcu. Where did you make that speech? Mr. Vatentine. In Philadelphia. Mr. Burcu. Before whom? Mr. Vatentrne. Before the Indian Rights Association. Mr. Burcu. Have you a copy of it? Mr. Vatentine. I have a copy of it. Mr. Burcu. Will you produce it for the benefit of the committee? Mr. Vatentine. I will be delighted to do so. Mr. Burcu. I would like to have you do so, if you please. Now, at the same time that they represent the Indians here why should they not represent the Indians in the Court of Claims? Why should they have an extra fee of 10 per cent on whatever they recover for representing the Indians in the Court of Claims? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, that depends on the real value of the service rendered, and I am not in a position to pass on it in any spe- cific case. I should say that as a general proposition most attorneys were paid probably like other people—either too much or too little. Mr. Georce. Mr. Valentine, in connection with the matter of this file, these papers on the file, I should like to have the gentleman who made this file, apparently R. H. G. or C.. bring with him the re- mainder of the file. Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Georce. If there is any remainder. Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir. Thereupon the subcommitteé adjourned to meet Tuesday, March 12, 1912, at 1.30 o’clock p. m. 78822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3. vol 2—44 SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, Houses or REPRESENTATIVES, Tuesday, March 12, 1912. The subcommittee met at 1.30 o’clock p. m. with Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) and Hon. Henry George, jr., present. Appearances: Hon. Halvor Steenerson, a Representative from the State of Minnesota; Mr. M. B. Burch, attorney for the Department of Justice, in charge of White Earth matters; Mr. E. C. O’Brien, special assistant to the Attorney General; and Mr. R. J. Powell, representing the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. The. Cuarrman. The committee will please be in order. Mr. Nichols, are you ready now to take the stand? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF MR. JAMES A. NICHOLS. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Cuairman. Give your full name to the committee. Mr. Nicnoxts. James A. Nichols. The CHarrman. Where do you reside? Mr. Nicuots. Frazee, Minn. The Cuarrman. Where is Frazee from St. Paul and Minneapolis? Mr. Nicnots. It is northwest about 184 miles. The Cuarrman. In what county? Mr. Nicwots. Becker County. The aes: Where. is it from the White Earth Indian Reser- vation ? Mr. Nicuots. Southeast. The Cuarrman. And how far. about? ae Nicwoxs. I think on a direct line somewhere about 18 or 20 ‘ miles. The Cuarrman. How long has Frazee been your home? Mr. Nicwots. A little over four years. The Cuairman. Before you went there where was your home? Mr. Nicnors. At Little Falls, Morrison County. The Cuairman. Minnesota? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. How long have you lived in Minnesota? Mr. Nicuors. Since 1876; the spring of 1876. 2202 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2203 The Cuarrman. You have recently been ill? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And had to submit to an operation ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And for that reason you did not appear before the commutes as a witness while the subcommittee was in Min- nesota $ Mr. Nicwoxs. That is right. The Cuairman. And you are now here of your motion, so to speak, to carry out your promise that you would come? Mr. Nicuous. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. What is your business? Mr. Nicwots. I am in the lumber business. The Cuarrman. In what capacity? Mr. Nicxors. The manufacturing of lumber. The Carman. That includes what—the buying of trees on the stump and manufacturing them into lumber? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. - The Cuatraan. Do you make a specialty of any kind of lumber? Mr. Nicuots. We manufacture pine, white and Norway pine. oe: CuarrMan. How many grades or qualities of pine timber are there ‘ ' Mr. Nicuots. Do you mean after manufactured into lumber? The Crarrman. No: I mean on the stump. You mentioned white pine and Norway pine; what other species are there? Mr. Nicuoxs. That is practically all we have in Minesota, except jack pine and a little spruce timber, but that is not pine. The Cuarrman. The spruce timber is not merchantable to any ex- tent, is it? Mr. Nicuors. It is very good; yes, sir; spruce is very good timber. The Cuatruan. But it does not grow to such a size as to make it of value in a merchantable way ! Mr. Nicuots. No; it is not as good as pine. The Cuarrman. And the same is true as to jack pine? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Caarrman. Has it any other name? Mr. Nicuoxrs. Well, I have heard it called spruce pine, but I guess jack pine is the only name I know for it. The Cuarrman. When you say jack pine and spruce do you mean the same thing? : Mr. Nicuoxs. No; spruce is a different thing and is not pine; some people call it spruce pine, but jack pine and spruce are two different trees. The Cuarrman. How long have you been in the lumber business? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I have been working at the lumber business practically all of my life; that is, since I was able to. _ ; The Cyatruran. And in the same way you have indicated; that is, dealing with the trees and converting them into boards? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. : : The Cuarrman. Have you gone further than that in your business? Mr. Nicuors. The selling of it. that is all. _ The Cuarrman. You have not manufactured lumber into furniture or other things? 2204 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; just merely making it into lumber and sell- ing it at wholesale. The Cuarrman. As boards? Mr. Nicos. Yes, sir; of different dimensions. The Cuarrman. Well, while you have been engaged in that all your life, of course, you have not been engaged in it for yourself in a business way all of that time? Mr. Nicuots. No. ; The Cuairman. How long have you been engaged in it in the larger way? . Mr. Nicuots. I think about—that is, for myself, and it was in a small way when I started—since the year 1899. The Cuairman. Afterwards you become associated with others? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Was your first business association a partnership or a corporate concern ? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, to start with I used to leg for myself on con- tracts, you know—so much per thousand—for different parties, dif- ferent men. The Cuairman. And when you say you logged for yourself, what does that mean in a technical sense? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I took contracts and put logs in the river and drove them to the market for other people for a certain price per thousand. Mr. Grorcs. Did you cut the trees? Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; I did the whole thing; took from the stump. The CuairmMan. And delivered them at the sawmill? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. I think in the year 1899 I formed a cor- poration with a small capital. The Cuarrman. What was the name of it? Mr. Nicuots. The Nichols Lumber Co. The Cramman. Where were its headquarters? Mr. Nicwots. Little Falls, Minn. That is where I lived. The Cuairman. And how long did it continue? Mr. Nicuoxs. Until the latter part of 1903. The Cuarrman. Then in what way did you carry on your business? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I sold out and cleaned up the Nichols Lumber Co. and bought into the Commonwealth Lumber Co. The Cuarrman. Where were its headquarters? Mr. Nicuots. At Frazee, Minn. That is where they were manu- facturing. The Cuarrman. It was a corporation also? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. ae Cuatrman. Who were the principal stockholders in that com- pany ? Mr. Nicuoxs. There was Mr. T. H. Shevlin. The Cuarrman. Better known as Tom or Thomas? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir; Thomas Shevlin. The Cuatrman. Of St. Paul? Mr. Nicuors. Of Minneapolis. Ray W. Jones, of Minneapolis; ne C. Clark, whom I bought out at that time; Robert G. isholm. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2205 The Cuairman. How long did the Commonwealth Co. continue to do business? Mr. Nicwors. Well, I think the name of that corporation was changed to the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. in 1904 or 1905. The Cuarrman. The Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. That was an incorporation also? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; we took over the property and changed the name. The Cuarrman. There was no change in the personnel of the stock- holders, was there, or in the amount of stock? Mr. Nicos. Not at that time; no, sir. The Cuarrman. Were you an officer of the new company, the Nichols-Chisholm Co. ? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. What position did you hold? Mr. Nicuots. President. The Cuatrman. Who were the other officers? ae Nicos. Mr. R. G. Chisholm and Mr. Meister; they were the officers. The Cuarrman. What offices did they hold? Mr. Nicuors. Mr. Chisholm was secretary and treasurer, I think, and Mr. Meister was vice president; I do not believe there were any other officers. The Cuatrman. Did Shevlin hold any office in the company? Mr. Nicuots. I do not think he did; I would not be positive. The Cuamman. He was one of the principal stockholders, was he? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; the largest stockholder. The Cuarrman. Did he control more than half of the stock? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Mr. Shevlin died not long ago? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. i The Cuarman. When was it? Mr. Nicuors. About the 1st of January, 1912. The Cuamman. The Nichols-Chisholm Co. is still in existence? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The CHarrman. It continued to carry on substantially the same character of business as the old Nichols Co. did and the Common- wealth Co.? Mr. Nicuots. The old Nichols Co. ? The Cusrrman. Yes. Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; entirely different. The Nichols Co. bought and sold logs, cut timber, and sold the logs but they did not do any manufacturing. : The Cuarrman. And the next one you organized, the Common- wealth Lumber Co., manufactured, as you call it—that is, it converted the logs into lumber ? Mr. Nicos. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. And the Nichols-Chisholm Co. were to do prac- tically the same kind of business that the Commonwealth Co. hed been doing ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. : Mr. Powerit. You asked him when he organized the next company, inadvertently, perhaps, because the Commonwealth Co. was not or- 2206 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ganized by Mr. Nichols. He stated a moment ago that the Common- wealth Co. was in existence and they bought into it. Mr. Nicuots. The Commonwealth Lumber Co. must have been or- ganized some time in 1895; maybe before, I could not say. The Cuairman. Very well. The Nichols-Chisholm Co. handled a great deal of the lumber that grew on the White Earth Reservation? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; they handled considerable of it. The Cuarrman. Did the Commonwealth Co. also handle some of that? Mr. Nicrors. Well, as I understand, they had bought some lo, from the reservation that had been cut and sold, as I understand, by the Government, but that was before I went there. The Cuarrman. That was under the dead-and-down act? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. But it did not buy any land there or timber from the land in a body ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I think not. The Cuatrman. Well, that covers the preliminary things that I want to know, Judge, and you may proceed. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Nichols, did you get into the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. and the Commonwealth Lumber Co. in time to get in on the four ceded townships? Mr. Nicnors. In time to get in on it? Mr. Burcu. Yes; to get in on that deal. Mr. Nicuors. What do you mean by that, Judge, the sale? Mr. Burcu. Well, the purchase. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. When the Crookston sale occurred, did you have any- thing to do with it? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know anything about it? Mr. Nicuors. Not a thing. I knew there was a sale there, like everybody else in Minnesota. Mr. Burcu. You lived in Little Falls, and had no interest up there on the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Nicwoxs. Not at all. That sale, as I understand it, was in 1900. Mr. Burcu. Yes; in November, 1900. Mr. Nicwors. I had no interest in that country whatever at that time. Mr. Burcu. Who bought in the timber on the four ceded town- ships for the Commonwealth Lumber Co.? Have you ever learned? Mr. Nicuots. That is, at the sale? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuors. At that sale? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I do not know. Mr. Burcu. You do not know that there was anybody ¢ Mr. Nicuots. No; sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, now, who was the man or men making the pur- chase from the Government at the Crookston sale which eventuated in the handling of the timber by the Commonwealth Lumber Co. and the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2207 Mr. Nicuots. Well, now, the Crookston sale I know nothing about; I was not there. In August, 1903, I bought Mr. Clark out—his in- terest in the Commonwealth Co.—bought his stock, and went to Frazee off and on at different time to help to run the business, and at that time there was nothing said about owning any timber in the four ceded townships, to my knowledge. Mr. Burcu. Well, did they own any? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I do not know; not to my knowledge. Mr. Burcu. When you bought into the Commonwealth Lumber ae you never examine what the assets of it were or, what it con- sisted ? Mr. Nicuots. Well, it consisted of a sawmill—yes; I knew practi- cally of what it consisted ; it consisted of a sawmill and some timber. Mr. Burcu. Where? Mr. Nicuots. And lumber in different parts of Minnesota. Up the Ottertail River, south of the reservation, they owned a large tract of pine; they had been cutting it for a good many years; and in dif- ferent parts of the country. JI turned over some lumber from the Nichols Lumber Co. : Mr. Burcs. I do not care so much about the Nichols Lumber Co. What I want to find out is how the company that you then bought into, the Commonwealth Lumber Co., got into that timber on the four ceded townships. Mr. Nicuots. Well, I understand Mr. Shevlin bought it. _ Burcu. Then he bought it at the Crookston sale, you under- stand ¢ i Nicuots. I do not know how much he bought at the Crookston sale. Mr. Burcu. But you understood so? Mr. Nicuoxs. No; I understood that he bought it afterwards. Mr. Burcu. Did not he buy it in at the Crookston sale? Mr. Nicwors. Well, I do not know that he did. Mr. Burcu. But bought it from different people after that? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir; that was my understanding. Mr. Burcu. Did he buy it for the company or for himself? Mr. Nicwots. Well, I think he bought it for himself. Mr. Burcu. Then he turned it over to the company ? Mr. Nicrots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The company took it off of his hands? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The Nichols-Chisholm Co. or the Commonwealth Co. ? Mr. Nicuots. The only thing I know anything about is that the business was all handled through Mr. Shevlin, with the exception of in 1906—in the winter of 1906—Mr. Shevlin sold to the Nichols- Chisholm Lumber Co.—although I will not be positive—at that time about 38,000,000 feet of timber. That I made a personal deal with Mr. Shevlin, myself, for, and that is the only transaction I know any- thing about. ? Mr. Burcu. A portion of that was in those four ceded townships ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. I bought at that time what we considered was 38,000,000 feet, in 1906. Up to that time I am satisfied that the Commonwealth Lumber Co. and the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. had never had any interest: in it, because we paid for it at that time. 2208 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Shevlin was at that time a part owner in your company ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is, a stockholder in your company ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, your impression is that the company changed in name from the Commonwealth Lumber Co. to the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. in 1904? Mr. Nicwors. Well, I will not swear to that? Mr. Powrw. That is my impression. : Mr. Burcu. And it is our impression also. But not until after that change did you buy 38,000,000 feet on the four ceded town- ships? Mr. Nicuors. It was in 1906 I bought it, I am quite positive. Mr. Burcu. Then until two years after your going into the com- pany, or at least it was two years after the change of the company from the Commonwealth Lumber Co. to the Nichols-Chisolm Lum- ber Co. before they bought anything on the reservation ? Mr. Nicwors. No; they owned some timber; they bought some tim- ber before that. Mr. Burcu. Where? Mr. Nicwots. In those four ceded townships. Mr. Burcu. That is, the Hovey Clark timber? Mr. Nicuotrs. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How much was there of that? Mr. Nicnots. I think 46,000,000. Mr. Burcu. When did you buy it? Mr. Nicos. Well, I could not say, Judge; I did not have any- thing to do with buying it. Mr. Burcu. That was owned when you went in? Mr. Nicnots. I think that was turned over in 1904. Mr. Burcu. After you went in? Mr. Nicuoxs. I think so; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What was the occasion for changing the name of the Commonwealth Lumber Co. to the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co.? What was the scheme, or idea? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, there was no scheme that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Are you sure? Was there no purpose in it? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; not that I know of, any more than to change the name. Mr. Burcu. Was it a matter of personal pride? Mr. Nicuots. Well, perhaps. Mr. Burcu. On your part? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I do not know that it was entirely on my part, but on the part of our company—the stockholders. Mr. Burcu. Had the company gotten a black eye in its suit with the Government? Mr. Nicuots. Well, the Commonwealth Lumber Co. had had a ae with the Government for timber they had cut before we went ere. : Mr. Burcu. Yes; I know it was before you went there; and the Government had recovered for dead-and-down timber that was cut at Fergus Falls. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2209 Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, were the deeds turned over to your company when you bought that timber from Hovey Clark? Mr. Nicwors. Well, I never saw any deeds, Judge; they were all handled through Mr. Shevlin’s office. f Mr. Burcu. It is in evidence here, Mr. Nichols, that the deeds or patents for these four ceded townships were kept off of the records for six, seven, or eight years, away down until 1909, and I want to find out about that transaction. Mr. Nicwots. I never saw a patent. Mr. Burcu. And never heard anything about these patents? Mr. Nicnots. Yes; I heard there were patents. vee Did you know anything about their being put on record ? Mr. Nicuors. At the time they were put on the record, Judge; es, sir. , Mr. Burcu. You had them put on record, did you not? Mr. Nicos. Well, I presume I had something to do with it. Mr. Burcu. Why? Mr. Nicuots. We bonded our timber at that time. Mr. Burcu. Had you not gotten the timber off of the four ceded townships at that time? Mr. Nicuots. Some of it; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was there no other motive in delaying the putting on record of those deeds except mere inattention ? Mr. Nicwots. Well, there might have been, for anything I know, but I never handled that part of it at all; I never saw a patent at all, and the first time I knew anything about those patents was at the time we talked of bonding our timber. Mr. Burcu. You bonded your timber? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I will get to that by-and-by. Now, these deeds or pat- ents you finally, after many years, secured and placed upon record? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. Mr. Burcu. In the four ceded townships? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Up until that time you bought the timber, so far as you knew, by the estimate and not by the land—not by the acreage, ° but by the estimate? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. : i Mr. Burcu. That was the way it was counted in your transactions? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. And the deeds were merely the evidence of the owner- ship of that, in your mind? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. ah Mr. Burcu. Were you ever told by anybody, Mr. Nichols, whether there was a purpose in keeping those deeds from the record—the keeping of those patents from the record—during all of those years? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; I never was told that there was an object, and, really, I did not know but what they might have been on record ; T did not know that they were not on record—the patents. Mr. Georce. You did not know what? Mr. Nicuots. I did not know that the.patents were not on record; I did not know but what they were on record. 2210 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Were the deeds from Clark and Shevlin put in your hands, too? Mr. Nicuots. No; I do not think I ever saw a deed. ; Mr. Burcu. All of this business, then, was done down at Minne- apolis? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. : . Mr. Burcu. Did you not attend the meetings of the board, or did you not have any? : Mr. Nicuots. I do not think we had any meetings of the board; I do not remember of ever having any. Mr. Burcu. Your presidency of the company was merely an ideality ? : : Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, I looked after the transaction of the busi- ness at Frazee. Mr. Burcu. Well, you were then really the manager? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And nominally president? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. But did not have to preside? : Mr. Nicuors. Well, I did when we had our regular meetings. Mr. Burcu. Oh, you had regular meetings? Mr. Nicwoxs. Occasionally. Mr. Burcu. Once a year? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Elected officers and adjourned, I suppose? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Otherwise Mr. Shevlin did the business? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did it in Minneapolis? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And you did the field work? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Earning the money ? Mr. Nicwots. I guess that is about it; yes, sir. Looked after the timber and logging—the business end of it. Mr. Burcu. You did the work and they drew the money? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, we collected the money for our timber. Mr. Burcu. They did? Mr. Nicuots. I said we collected the money for our lumber. Mr. Burcu. I do not intend to be facetious about it at all; I simply want to know your custom of doing business in order to find out about some other matters. Now, were you in that company at the time Beaulieu was first employed? Mr. Nicwots. I could not say. The Commonwealth Co.? Mr. Burcu. In either company ? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say. Mr. Burcu. Did you not employ him? Mr. Nicuous. Yes, sir; I did. Mr. Burcu. To pick up inherited lands? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I can not say that I did to pick up inherited lands, because we always looked after that ourselves. Mr. Beaulieu would attend to the detailed part of it, so far as finding out whether the proper allottee was selling the land, and the likes of that. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2211 ae Burcu. You employed him in connection with the inherited ands ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. a Burcu. And that was before the Steenerson Act or the Clapp rider ? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. He did some work for us at different times. Mr. Burcu. Did you pick up many of those inherited lands? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not a great many. Mr. Burcu. Did not many people die? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I do not know; they were not advertised any- way. All we could pick up was what was advertised for sale. Mr. Burcu. Did you pick up most of those that were advertised ? Mr. Nicuots. Oh, no; not a one-tenth part of them. Mr. Burcu. I do not refer to the lands particularly, but the lands on which there was timber? Mr. Nicwots. Well, we picked up quite a few that had timber on. Mr. Burcu. You got them all, substantially ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; we did not get them all; some were rejected. Mr. Burcu. When did you first form the plan of securing the tim- ber on the diminished reservation or on certain limits of the dimin- ished reservation ? Mr. Nicwors. That would be outside of the four trownships that you are speaking of? Mr. Burcu. Yes. The 32 townships. Mr. Nicuors. When did I form the plan? Mr. Burcu. When was the plan first formed to secure the pine timber on a portion of the 32 townships? . Mr. Nicwors. Well, I should say in July, 1906, if I am not mis- taken. Mr. Burcu. Not rntil then? Mr. Nicuotrs. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. You had no intention of doing it before then? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I had no possible way of knowing that it would be sold until then or that it was available until then, I should say. I will correct that—that it was available until then. ; Mr. Burcu. I asked you this question, and I will repeat it: When did your company first form the intention of securing what might be termed these limits or portions of the pine timber on the diminished reservation, 32 townships? . Mr. Nicnots. Well, Judge, I will tell you that it was after the President signed the Clapp Act. : Mr. Burcu. Do you wish us to understand or do you wish to be understood as saying that you had not made any plans for securing that timber until after the Clapp Act took effect? Mr. Nicos. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Had you not made contracts? Mr. Nicnozs. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Had you not employed men? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. ae Mr. Burcu. Beaulieu had been all the while in your employ, had he not? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; he had not. f , Mr. Burcu. Had not this Beaulieu been constantly in your employ; that is, in the employ of that institution that was changed from the t 2212 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Commonwealth Lumber Co. to the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co, since 1902? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not to my knowledge he had not. Mr. Burcu. Who employed him first? Mr. Nicos. Well, I employed him about, I should say, in 1904, to the best of my knowledge. ; : Mr. Burcu. You had no concerted action with him nor with Fair- banks relative to measures to be taken to secure the land for the addi- tional allotment under the Steenerson Act? Myr. Nrcxoxs. No, sir. Before the Clapp Act, you mean? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. : : Mr. Burcu. Was he not in your employ at the time you bid for the business; that is, the time you succeeded in stopping the sale by the bids which are known as the Herrick bids? Mr. Nicnoxs. No, sir; I think not. He had been doing some work for us at different times. Mr. Burcu. Your vouchers show he was constantly in your employ during this time? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I think Mr. Burcu (interposing). Do you dispute the vouchers? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir. I think we paid Mr. Beaulieu for a certain length of time—I do not know what it was—$25 a month—that is, to the best of my recollection. Mr. Burcu. Did you pay him anything for going to St. Paul to meet Senator Clapp with you? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I did not. * Mr. Burcu. Did you go to St. Paul? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who was present at that meeting at St. Paul, when it was resolved— ‘ Mr. Nicuots (interposing). Well, I could not just remember how many there were there, but I know——— Mr. Burcu (interposing). Give the best. of your recollection. The Cuarrman. You started to say when it was resolved to do something, but you did not finish your question. Mr. Burcu. When it was resolved to overturn the Herrick bids? Mr. Nicwors. I think Mr. Beaulieu and Mr. Fairbanks were there, and there were several that I can not remember now. Mr. Shevlin was there, and myself, and we met Senator Clapp in St. Paul, after the bids were advertised. Mr. Burcu. Any other lumber men? Mr. Nicuoxs. I can not remember any. Mr. Burcu. In fact, the bids were advertised after the land was sold, were they not? Mr. Nicuors. I never met Mr. Clapp there after the land was sold that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Then it was after the land was advertised ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who fixed up the bids called the Lyman-Erwin bids? Mr. Nicxors. Mr. Shevlin fixed up the bids. ; Mr. Burcu. It was a fictitious bid, was it not? Mr. Nrcuors. It was to a certain extent; yes. Mr. Burcu. Sort of a catch bid? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2213 Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. _Mr. Burcu. Who fixed up the bid in the name of the Nichois- Chisholm Lumber Co. ? Mr. Nicnors. Mr. Shevlin. Mr. Burcu. You had nothing to do with either? Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; I was present when he fixed them up. Mr. Burcu. Then you helped him? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You advised with him about the details? Mr. Nicnots. I do not know that I did; I think he did the advis- ing. Tir. Burcu. What was the plot in fixing up these two different bids, one so far different from the other; what was the idea? Mr. Nicwors. The Lyman-Erwin bid and the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. bid? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuors. Well, in fixing both the bids we thought under the circumstances that we were justified in fixing up a trick bid. Mr. Burcu. Well, what were the circumstances you were laboring under that justified this course? Mr, Nicuors. Well, I will tell you, Judge. In the first place, it was the way the timber was advertised and everything connected with it. The first that we knew anything about there being any sale of timber on the White Earth Reservation was when we saw a little bid in the Minneapolis Tribune, saying that all the timber on the White Earth Reservation would be sold on a certain date, which was about two weeks from the time we saw the bid until it would have been sold. We had no idea, any more than in a general way, about the White Earth Reservation; I had never been in the timber on the White Earth Reservation and had no men with me who could tell me anything about it; and two weeks was too short a time to examine the timber on the White Earth Reservation to find out what timber was there, what it would cost to log it, and what the quality of the timber was. Mr. Burcu. And that was all fixed up by a continuance for two or three months? Mr. Nicnors. Well, I am going to tell you—— : ; Mr. Burcu (interposing). That took all of the sting out, did it not? : Mr. Nicuors. I have not got through. I went to Minneapolis and went to Mr. Shevlin. I said, “This timber is advertised to be sold on the 5th of September ”—I think it was, and it was about the middle of August at that time or about, I think, the 20th. I said, “We have not got time to examine it.” So we immediately enlisted Mr. Clapp’s aid to try to get that time extended. That is the only time I remember of meeting Mr. Clapp in connection with any timber of any kind, White Earth or anything else. We went to St. Paul and asked him to get an extension of that time. Now, those parties that I have named were there at that time, and many more; there were others, I know, but I can not just recall who was there. Mr. Merrill might have been there, and I think he was. ; Mr. Gzorce. May I ask you what kind of a notice appeared in the Tribune, if you please? 9214 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, it was simply a notice saying that all the timber on the White Earth Reservation would be sold under sealed bids. Of course, I can not give it exactly. Mr. Grorcr. It was an advertisement? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; an advertisement. Mr. Grorcz. In whose name was it? Was any name attached to it? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say that; yes; there was a name attached to it; it was from the department, as I understand it. Mr. Gzorcr. Whose name was attached to it? Mr. Nicuots. I do not know. Mr. Gzorcr. You do not know whether it was the name of Mr. Michelet or whether it was the name of the commissioner of the bureau here in Washington ? Mr. Nicuoxs. I could not say. I supposed it was an authorized article and that it was bona fide. Mr. Burcu. Well, it already appears in evidence in this case, written and otherwise, that another party than Senator Clapp, an official of the Government having to do with such matters, had pro- tested against that short notice, and that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Leupp, had caused the sale to be -postponed for either 60 or 90 days. Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, that took the sting out of that, did it not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; that gave us time to examine the timber. Mr. Burcu. You had plenty of time, then? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, you had not at that time formulated and put in this straw bid, had you? . Mr. Nicuors. At that time? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I think not. Our bids will show the dates. Mr. Burcu. At the meeting at St. Paul did Senator Clapp assure you that the bids would be rejected ? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; if he had I should not have bid on it; there would have been no use bidding if I had known that. Mr. Burcu. If Mr. Beaulieu testified to the contrary, that Senator Clapp did assure you at that time that the bids would be rejected, even though they went through the form, that was not true? Mr. Nicwoxs. That was not true so far as we were concerned. If Mr. Beaulieu knew anything about it he never intimated it to us. Mr. Burcu. I mean at that meeting. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Or at any other time? You did not know anything about it? Mr. Nicuotzs. No, sir; I did not. Mr. Burcu. You had not any sting on that score? Now, what was the other circumstance? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I was saying it was a peculiar bill. In the first place, when timber had been sold before a bidder could bid on 1 section or a group of 10 sections, or on the whole thing, if he pleased; and if he did, he had to put up 20 per cent, a certified check for 20 per cent of the purchase price; but in this case all of the timber on the reservation had to be sold to one party, and you had to buy all the oak, elm, ash, and basswood, and it was put in the bid that there WHITE EARTH KESERVATION, 2215 was so much of it there, so much white pine, so much Norway pine, and so much of every other kind, and all you had to put up was a $2,500 check in buying a couple million dollars’ worth of timber. . Burcu. Did you complain because you did not have to put up more than $2,500? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; I did not complain at all. Mr. Burcu. Did you feel hurt ? Mr. Nicuots. No; I did not feel hurt at all, but it was peculiar just the same. And they advertised that there was a whole lot of ash, a whole lot of elm and maple and basswood, when there was scarcely any of it when we came to look it over. Mr. Burcu. But you did not have to pay for anything you did not get, only just what you got? Mr. Nictots. Yes; that is right. We knew that we would not have to pay for anything but what was there, and we felt there was a trick somewhere in the advertising of that bid, or that the people who were advertising it did not know what they were doing; that it was either a fool sale or a trick sale, one or the other, we were satisfied of that. Mr. Burcn. Were you aware that that was promulgated by the Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs, a man of long years of experience ? Mr. Niciroxs. I did not know anything about that. He ordered the sale, as I understand it, and that is all I know about it. The first thing we ever knew about it was when we saw the advertisement. Mr. Burcu. Your scheme was to catch it coming or to.catch it going. In your first bid—that is, the Nichols-Chisholm Co. bid—if it went that you, your scheme was to get it in that way; and if it went by the other route, that is, the hard-wood route, you were goin, to get it by that means? Now, if it did not go either way, then what? Mr. Nicuots. If it did not go either way the other fellow would get it, of course. . Mr. Burcu. I did not mean that. I meant if the sale did not go off. Mr. Nicuots. If the sale did not go off, no one would get it. Mr. Burcu. Was there any purpose in that? Mr. Nicos. In what? Mr. Burcu. In getting the sale off? i Mr. Nicuors. No; we had no object in getting the sale off. Mr. Burcn. You never tried that? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. . Mr. Burcu. You never had any such desire? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. f ; : Mr. Burcu. You had no ulterior motive in having these bids rejected ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. . . Mr. Burcu. Either before or after the opening of the bids? Mr. Nicxots. No, sir; because we thought we bid high enough to get the timber. ? Mr. Burcu. Did you make any effort yourself to have the bids rejected ? : Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; we did not. Mr. Burcu. Did Mr. Shevlin? 2216 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuoxs. No, sir; not to my knowledge; I do not think he did. Mr. Burcu. You were content and satisfied with the result of Herricks getting the Mr. Nicuots (interposing). Well, we never heard that he got it. Our bid was higher than Mr. Herrick’s, as I understand it. The Cuairman. I believe you stated that you understood you did not have to take any of the wood you did not care to take? Mr. Nicuous. We knew that. Mr. Grorce. And you knew all about the hardwood, did you not? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir; we knew it was not there; we knew ‘it did not grow there. 5 Mr. Georcs. .So it was a trick bid after all? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; it was a trick bid; I will admit that. Let me tell you, gentlemen, we bid every dollar that the pine timber was worth; you may believe me or not, but I can show you from the rec- ords that we bid every dollar the pine timber on the White Earth Reservation was worth to us or any other person. It must be ad- mitted that we know something about the business. The difference between what it costs to log that, put it at the mill, manufacture it, dry it, put it on the cars, and sell it, and what it has cost us, would be the price that the stumpage would be worth, would it not? You would not expect anybody to go in there and bid two or three dollars more than they could possibly get out of that, would you? Mr. Burcu. Well, they did. Mr. Nicuots. Well, I do not know he did. Gentlemen, we bid what it was worth, and I can show you what we bid, if you want it; I have got the figures here. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Nichols, we will try not to get excited, and keep cool about this matter. Mr. Nicuors. Well, I will do that. Mr. Burcu. According to the official schedule in evidence in this ease Fred Herrick bid in the neighborhood of $2 a thousand more on the white pine and in the neighborhood of $2 a thousand more on the Norway pine than you did—that is, more than the Nichols- Chisholm Lumber Co. bid—is not that so? Mr. Nicuors. I think he did; yes, sir Mr. Burcu. Now, you say that you knew that the hardwood was not there? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir; we certainly did. Mr. Burcu. How can you, then, say that your bid was better? Mr. Nicuots. I did not say it was better. Mr. Burcu. You said that you expected to get it, and that your bid was higher. Mr. Nicnots. I said it was higher according to the way the timber was advertised to be sold. . Mr. Burcu. Well, that does not appear to be so in the official records, and that is the trouble with what you say. Mr. Nicuors. We went according to the way that timber. was ad- vertised, Judge. ; Mr. Burcu. I know; I heard what you said; put it does not seem to be borne out by the record. Mr. Nicuors. In what way do you mean? Mr. Burcu. In the opening of the bids—the record of the bids when they were opened, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2217 Mr. Nicuots. As I say, we bid all the timber was worth. Mr. Burcu. That I do not question in your mind. The pine I am talking about. Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir; and we bid more than the other was worth, because there was not the amount there that they claimed there was. Mr. Burcu. Suppose somebody bid $2 more than you did for the hardwood, would not that be $2 a thousand better for the Indians? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; of course there was some hardwood there. Mr. Burcu. Then what are we talking about, if you claim you were bidding so much more than anybody else? Mr. Powrtu. I think you misunderstood him. The terms of sale required them to take all of the timber. The Cuairman. I understood him to say that he did not consider they were bound to take the hardwood. Mr. Nicuous. I did understand that we had to take the hard- wood—everything we bid on—but we could not take any more than was there; that was it. Mr. Gxorcr. And you knew there was not any hardwood ? Mr. Nicuots. I knew there was some. Mr. Georcz. But not an appreciable quantity of it? Mr. Nicwoxs. There was a small quantity as compared with that advertised. Mr. Burcu. Let us get back to the facts in this matter. You mean to say that you supposed, even after the bids were opened, that you were the highest bidders at that sale? Mr. Nicuots. Well, according to the way they advertised the sale, Judge, I am talking about. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Nichols, that begs the whole question. You had cruised that land ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Or your men had? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You knew these estimates were mere guesswork, or about the same thing? , Mr. Nicwors. I did not know anything about the Government’s estimate, Judge. Mr. Burcu. You knew your estimate, did you not? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You knew the estimates did not agree? Mr. Nicnors. We did not have a good estimate; we merely ran over it as fast as we could, but we knew there was not the amount of hard wood there that they had advertised to be sold. There was no question about that; we are not denying it. ; Mr. Burcu. You did not depend upon your own estimate of the pine at all, but depended on the Government's estimate? Mr. NicHors. No; we depended on our own estimate. Mr. Burcu. You said you did not cruise the land. Mr. Nicuors. Oh, no; I did not. I said we did not have good estimates. a‘ Mr. Burcu. Well, now, if you talk a little slower and we can both of us keep a little bit cooler, maybe we can understand each other and get along a whole lot faster. 73822°—H.. Rep. 1886, 62-8, vol 2——45 9218 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuots. Well, I will try to get along. Mr. Burcu. Well, please do it; otherwise I will have to keep this up indefinitely. Now, didn’t you cruise that land in those 60 days or 90 days? Mr. Nicnots. Well, yes; we did not cruise it in the way that we called cruising it, because when we go in to buy a piece of timber on the stump and pay for it what it was worth, we pay for it 40 by 40. Mr. Burcu. Well, I know something about lumbering myself, and I am getting a little impatient. Mr. Nicuots. Well, I am trying to tell you. When we went in there Mr. Burcu. Well, I don’t know whether you are not—— Mr. Nicuots. Well, I will guarantee that I will tell you if I have the chance. Mr. Burcu. Let us keep cool about this. You had cruised that timber before ever those bids were put in there, hadn’t you? Mr. Nicuots. After the advertisement we did. . Mr. Burcu. Not before the advertisement ? Mr. Nicuors. Never in the world. Mr. Burcu. The Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. had not cruised it? Mr. Nicuots. Never. Mr. Burcu. How many men did you put in afterwards? Mr. Nicuors. How many crews? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir. Mr. Nicuoxs. I think we put in three crews. Mr. Burcu. Three crews of how many men each? Mr. Nicuots. Three men in a crew; that is, a compassman and an estimator, and a cook with them. Mr. Burcu. Now, in that 60 or 90 days from the 5th of September, or thereabouts, from September until the time the bids were opened, you cruised that sufficiently to satisfy yourself that the Government estimate that was advertised was mere guess work, did you not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes; there was Bonet e wrong with it. Mr. Burcu. It was utterly unreliable? Mr. Nicuots. Utterly unreliable; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That there was far more pine than the Government estimate showed ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That it was not divided between white pine and Norway pine the way the Government estimate showed ? Mr. Nicwoxs. I don’t think they were so far off on the proportions. Mr. Burcu. Well, let that go; it is unimportant. And you became satisfied that the hardwood was not there? Mr. Nicuotrs. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And when you bid you bid with reference to the Gov- ernment making that mistake in the matter of the hardwood, putting that to your advantage and bidding low on the pine? Mr. Nicwors. We did; yes, sir. I do not consider, though, that we bid low on the pine; we bid all it was worth. Mr. Burcu. Well, lower than Mr. Herrick, from $1 to $2? Mr. Nicnors. We did not know that anybody else was going to bid. Mr. Burcn. You knew that afterwards? Why did you say you expected to get that contract then? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2219 Mr. Nicuors. When we bid we expected to get it; we were nearly as high as anybody. Mr. Burcu. No. After it was over, you say you made no efforts to set those bids aside; when you found out what the bids were, you made no efforts to have the bids rejected ? Mr. Nicxots. We made no effort to have the bids rejected; we sup- posed that if the timber was sold as advertised they could not very well sell it to anybody else than us. Mr. Burcu. Why? Mr. Nicuors. Well, they would have to advertise and sell it again, if they found they had made a mistake. Mr. Burcu. In other words, if you paid only for what you took according to the stumpage, how would they have to advertise it again Mr. Nicnois. How would they have to advertise it again? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nrcuots. I say, if they found out they had made a mistake; but, Judge, did they know they had made a mistake when they re- jected those bids? Did they know that? Mr. Burcu. I am not on the witness stand. This can not go on, Mr. Nichols; we can not get along in this way. Mr. Nicuors. I will tell you in just a moment, if you will let me. We paid what we considered was the full value of that pine timber. We also paid—-—. Mr. Burcn. You have said that a dozen times. Mr. Nicuors. Well, there is a little more to this; we supposed the Government advertised that knowing what they were doing. Mr. Burcu. You say you knew they did not? Mr. Nicnors. No; I did not say the Government did not know what they were doing. I never saw one of the Government estima- tors. We supposed they knew what they were doing. After the bidding, we still thought that if they knew what they were doing they would accept our bid. : Mr. Burcu. You thought they were either foolish or crooked? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. Mr. Burcu. One or the other? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. . 2 Mr. Burcu. Now, did not those rules and regulations as established there provide that you were to pay for what you got? Mr. Nicos. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. No more? Mr. Nicwots. Yes. I understood that. Mr. Burcu. You were to pay merely for what you got? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. : Mr. Burcu. That if an Indian sold you had the monopoly of tim- ber on his allotment; if he did not sell you did not get it, but nobody else got it? Mr. Nicnots. Exactly so. . Mr. Burcu. You knew that you did not have to pay, then, for a stick more of pine than was finally scaled out by whatever process was adopted, didn’t you? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir; exactly. ; ; Mr. Burcu. Now. why do you keep coming back and saying that under those circumstances you believe you bid on the Government estimate, and therefore were the highest bidders? Y220 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicwoxs. Well, now, if you had a lot of stock or anything out here, you would expect me to bid the way you advertised, wouldn’t rou 4 a ME Burcu. But they did not advertise it that way; you have ad- mitted that you knew you were bidding on only just what you took according to the scale when you took it. - Mr. Nicwors. Certainly we did; we knew we would have to take all they offered us. Mr. Burcu. That is so; but you did not have to take any more thousands of feet than there turned out to be? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. : ; ~Mr. Burcu. Well, why do you insist upon saying that if the Gov- ernment sold the way they advertised they had to sell you just what you got? Mr. Nicuots. Exactly. . Mr. Burcu. Well, if a man bid $2 more than you did, his bid was $2 better than yours? Mr. Nicuots. Certainly; and the Government had the right to give him the bid, if they wanted to. Mr. Burcu. How did you expect to get that bid then? I would like to have you answer that if it takes all day. Mr. Nicnots. I would like to know how to answer it. Well, now, see, Judge, as I told you before, the Government had a certain amount {aside]. Will you get those bids there? Maybe I can tell it that way. Mr. Burcu. I know all about that. I know that they advertised seventy-five million or some such matter; that is not what I am talk- ing about, and you can not explain it any better that way. They did not advertise any more than you got or were to get? ‘Mr. Nicuots. That is true. ‘Mr. Burcu. You did not have to pay for any more than you got? Mr. Nicuots. Certainly not. Mr. Burcu. What difference did it make what they advertised ? Mr. Nicuots. It would look as though there were that amount of hardwood that would have to be bought, wouldn’t it? Mr. Burcu. According to your theory, if you went accordig to the bids there, you did not have a monopoly of any more than the Gov- ernment had. Mr. Nicuots. No; I had a monopoly that we would have to take everything on the reservation that they had. Mr. Burcu. Well, you say you bought according to the Govern- ment’s estimates; if that was your understanding you would not have to take more than the Government estimates. Mr. Nicuots. I had to take all they had, and if there was more i had to take it, because it says here “all the timber on the White Earth Reservation ” of certain kinds. The Cuarrman. Mr. Nichols, let me see if I can get your state of mind on the question. If you had no knowledge of the real facts as to the amount and kind of lumber on the reservation, you would of course be justified in following, to some extent at least, the Gov- ernment estimate? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. - The Cuarrman. But you did know the fact, and you knew that the Government estimate was ridiculously false? Q WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2291 Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. : The Carman. So that, as a matter of fact, the Government esti- mate had really nothing whatever to do with your bid? Mr. Nicuoxs. No; not so far as the money would be paid when we ' cut the timber. The Cuarmman. Well, I mean the Government estimate of. the amount of lumber there hadn’t anything to do with your bid? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. The Cuatrman. Because you knew the real facts, and knew that the Government estimators, as you say, were either foolish or crooked ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; that is the way it looked to me; we knew there was more pine than they advertised. ; The Cuarrman. So you bought on your private knowledge of the facts, and not on anything shown in the Government statement as to the amount of lumber there? Mr. Nicwots. Sure; yes, sir. : The Cuamman. And that is what you referred to when you ad- mitted that both of your bids were trick bids? 4 Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. That is, you were pretending to believe, for the purpose of the bids, that the Government estimates showed substan- tially the right amount of timber on the ground, when in fact you knew that they did not? , Mr. Nicunors. Exactly, Judge; that is the—we took it that if the Government knew that there was that amount of hardwood there that we bid on at those prices they would award us the bid. j The Cuarrman. That is, you thought you would take advantage of the foolishness or crookedness in the estimate and go on this theory: If the Government thinks that is a correct estimate, we will make a bid that looks well on its face, although we know very well that the bid won’t be what it seems to be? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; that is true. . Mr. Burcu. In this matter you would not be defrauding the Gov- ernment by any such trick bid? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not if we paid all the timber was worth. Mr. Burcu. But you would be the Indian if he could get more for it from somebody else? Mr. Nicuots. Sure, if he could get more for it from somebody else. Mr. Burcu. Then, if there was a bid there worth $200,000 or $300,- 000 more than yours, in the outcome of the timber, the Indian would be set back just that much if the bid had been awarded to you? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. He would have lost just that much ? ; Mr. Nicuors. If the agreement had been carried out according to the way the bids are, the other fellows were paying more than we were. Mr. Burcu. You now admit that? Mr. Nicuors. Sure; I never denied that. Mr. Burcu. Yet, you say you expected to get the award? z Mr. Nicuoxs. Judge, I just told the chairman here that we thought that if the Government had the idea that there was the amount of 9229, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. hardwood there that they advertised, they would certainly acknowl- edge our bid was the highest, didn’t I? Mr. Burcu. All right, you have told the chairman that. Now, Mr. Nichols, did you not know, in truth and in fact, long before you formulated those two bids and put them in, that this estimate of the Government was made by an inexperienced person, Mr. Davis, with inexperienced assistants or crews, and that it was regarded merely as a rough guess? Mr. Nicuots. Judge, togell you the honest truth, I never knew that they were estimating the timber. Mr. Burcu. No; but before you put in your bids, and after your. eruises had been accomplished for the purpose of putting in the bids, had you not learned that the advertised estimate of this were mere approximate figures—a sort of rough guess? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Made for the purpose of carrying out the’ rules and regulations, and illustrating how the timber would be sold? Mr. Nicnors. We knew that it was not a good estimate; we knew that it was an erroneous estimate. Mr. Burcu. Well, didn’t you know, now, that those figures were ‘merely to illustrate the manner in which the timber was to be sold? Mr. Nicuots. Sure. We had no other knowledge only from that advertisement, and that is the first time we ever knew anything about it. Mr. Burcu. Now, you are getting back to that advertisement. I want to ask you if you did not learn—not from the advertisement, but from other sources? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, then, answer the question, if you did not learn it. Mr. Nicuozs. I will try to. Mr. Burcu. Well, it takes so long for you to do so. Now, you say that neither you nor any of your company, to your knowledge, at- tempted to have those bids set aside? Mr. Nicuots. I say so; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. That you used no influence with Senator Clapp, or anybody else, to that end? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; we never did, to my knowledge. Mr. Burcu. Then, if others testified differently they testified, in your opinion, falsely ? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir; they may be mistaken. Mr. Burcu. Made a mistake? Mr. Nicuoxs. They are mistaken; yes. Mr. Burcn. We will put it in that form. Did you ever have any talk with Mr. Shevlin in his lifetime about that, whether any effort was made to have Senator Clapp set aside those bids? Mr. Nicwozs. I don’t know that I aver did. Mr. Burcu. Were you up at White Earth at the time they were getting up the remonstrance about the acceptance of the bids? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; no that I know of. ‘ Mr. Burcu. Did you hear anything about it? Mr. Nicuors. Yes; I heard the Indians talking about it; that they ‘were complaining. Mr. Burcu. What Indians? Mr. Nicuors. White Earth Indians. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2223 Mr. Burcu. What Indians? ae Nicnots. Well, I heard a good many of them—a number of them. _ Mr. Burcu. Just mention their names; there 1s no use dodg- ing me. rt. Nicnors. Well, Judge, I could not say all of them. Mr. Burcu. Did you hear Gus Beaulieu ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you hear Ben Fairbanks? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, did you hear Joe Pierrot? Mr. Nicuots. I don’t know that I did. Mr. Burcu. Did you hear Joe Crea speak about it? Mr. Nicuots. I think I did. Mr. Burcu. Did you hear William Potter? Mr. Nicnots. Well, I could not swear to that. Mr. Burcu. You were up there? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I was Mr. Burcu. You were on the job up there at White Earth? Mr. Nicwors. At what time? Mr. Burcu. At the time the bids were opened. Mr. Nicuoxs. I was there at the time the bids were opened, and I do not know that I was there for some time after. re (PEoE: You did not take any hand in having the bids re- jected ? : Mr. Nicnots. No hand whatever. Mr. Burcu. Did not incite anybody or pay anybody for taking a part in doing it? Mr. Nicuots. Not a dollar. : one Burcu. What is your idea about how they came to be rejected, then ? Mr. Nicuors. That is news to me; I lmew nothing about it. Mr. Burcu. You heard they were rejected ? Mr. Nicwots. Sure; I heard it. I heard they were rejected be- cause the bids were not high enough, and I knew the bids were too high. The bids were rejected because we did not bid enough on them. ; Mr. Burcu. After that the incident was closed ? Mr. Nicuots. How is that? Mr. Burcu. After that the incident was closed with you? Mr. Nicnots. Yes. Mr. Burcu. You did not expect to get the pine? Mr. Nicuors. After we bid on it? , Mr. Burcu. After you heard it was rejected. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; we did not expect to get it after we heard it was rejected. . : : Mr. Burcu. Did you have anything to do with the introduction of the legislation which was passed afterwards, called the Clapp amendment ? . oie 2 Mr. Nicuors. I never had anything to do with any legislation that was ever started here, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Personally? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. By orca Mr. Burcu. Do you know whether Mr. Shevlin did? 2224. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicnots. I could not say. Mr. Burcu. Do you know where Mr. Shevlin was when the Springer bill was introduced and the Clapp rider was passed ? Mr. Nicuotrs. I do not. Mr. Burcu. Was he in this town? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say. Was that in 1905? Mr. Burcu. In 1905. Mr. Nicwots. I could not say. Mr. Burcu. It was the winter of 1905 and 1906; that is, the latter part of 1905 and the early part of 1906. Mr. Nicuors. The Steenerson Act or the Clapp Act are you speak- _— ing of? r. Burcu. Well, the Clapp rider. Mr. Nicuors. Well, I do not know that he was here. He might have been, but I hardly think he was. Mr. Powerit. To avoid confusion, are there not two acts that you refer to as the Clapp Act—the act of 1904 and Mr. Burcu. Nineteen hundred and four, nineteen six, and nine- teen seven; I am speaking of the one of 1906, the one that took effect June 21, 1906. Mr. Nicwots. Well, I hardly think Mr. Shevlin was here then; he might have been here. Mr. Burcu. Was he here the winter before that? Mr. Nicuors. In 1905? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuoxs. Not to my knowledge. He might have been here a short time, but I don’t think he stayed here all the winter. Mr. Burcu. All the winter, practically ? Mr. Nicuots. Not to my knowledge. Mr. Burcu. Do you know where he was that winter? Mr. Nicuots. I do not. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever hear? Mr. Nicuots. No; I never did. Mr. Burcu. During the time after the rejection of that bid up to the time of the Clapp rider, did you do anything to obtain any of this land in anticipation of the Clapp rider? Mr. Nicuors. I did not; I did not. Mr. Burcu. Did anybody for your company? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was anybody employed to obtain contracts with the Indians? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not a soul. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever take any contract? Mr. Nicuors. I did not; not until after the Clapp amendment. Mr. Burcu. Did not take any preliminary contract or empower anybody to take one? Mr. Nicnors. No, sir; I did not to my knowledge; as to the best of my knowledge. Mr. Burcu. When did the salary of Mr. Beaulieu, in the employ of your company, change from $25 to $100 a month? Mr. Nicnots. I think in July, 1906; I am quite positive of that. Mr. Burcu. That is the time the pine began to be purchased ? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2225 Mr. Burcu. How did you come to employ him and Fairbanks in that work? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I had to have somebody. I could not talk .Chippewa ; did not know any of the Indians to speak of; and I em- loyed Mr. Beaulieu supposing that he knew the Indians as well as, if not better than, anybody on the reservation; he was an edu- cated man. Mr. Burcu. Did he make any representations about his influence with them to you? Mr. Nicuots. I do not know that he did. Mr. Burcu. Didn’t you know that he had been making preliminary arrangements to control the sale of their allotments; that is, their pine—— i Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. In your interest? Mr, Nicuots. No, sir; he never made a contract in our interest that I know of until after I authorized him, about July, 1906. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever have any blank contracts printed pre- vious to July, 1906? Mr. Nicuoxs. I did not; we had lots of timber contracts. We always used them. All lumbermen do in the business, but nothing that would cover the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Nothing that would be peculiar to these Indians? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; never did. Mr. Burcn. No contracts printed with blanks attached to them— blank affidavits attached to them showing the blood status of the Indians? Mr. Nicuots. For the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. you are speak- ing of now? Mr. Burcu. Not necessarily mentioning the Nichols-Chisolm Lum- ber Co.; but blanks of that kind. , Mr. Nicuots. Never had one. Mr. Burcu. You never placed such a thing in the hands of Gus Beaulieu ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcn. Or Ben Fairbanks? Mr. Nicos. Not until after July; and we did not then; they got ; them up themselves. Mr. Burcu. Did you pay for it? Mr. Nicwots. Well, I presume so; I don’t remember now. Mr. Burcu. Where were they printed? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say; I guess in Detroit? Mr. Burcu. In Detroit, Minn. ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. . . Mr. Burcu. You did not know that they were using them in your interest before that act took effect. ; Mr. Nicuors. I did not. I don’t think they were, Judge. _ Mr. Burcu. And you had nothing to do with the legislation, neither you nor any member of your company, so far as you know? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not a thing. Mr. Burcu. Did you go over the accounts of your company? Mr. Nicuots. Well, in a general way. Ae ce Mr. Burcu. You spoke some time ago about bonding your com- pany ? 2226 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How much did you bond it for? Mr. Nicuottzs. $1,500,000; a million and a half. Mr. Burcu. Who were the trustees on the bond? Mr. Nicuots. The Minneapolis Trust Co. Mr. Burcu. Did anybody guarantee the bond? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcs. Who? Mr. Nicuots. Mr. Clark and Mr. Shevlin. Mr. Burcu. Had Clark bought any stock? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. He was again interested in the Nichols-Chisolm Lum- ber Co.? , Mr. Grorcr. Please repeat that name; I did not get it. Mr. Nicuors. Hovey C. Clark. He had sold out of the Common- wealth and he had gone back in on the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. Mr. Burcu. Who were the owners of the stock of the Nichols- Chisolm Lumber Co.? Mr. Nicuots. At the time of the purchase from the Indians? Mr. Burcu. July 1, 1906. Mr. Nicuots. Mr. Shevlin, Mr. Clark, Mr. Ray W. Jones, I think, of Chicago, if I am not mistaken; R. G. Chisolm, J. H. Meister, and myself. Mtr, Burcu. What is your capital stock? Mr. Nicuors. Well, we had increased our capital stock, I think, $500,000; I would not be sure. Mr. Burcu. Was it paid in? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You had property to show for it? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You were bonded then for $1,500,000? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I am only interested in that transaction to know how much you paid out for timber on the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Nicuoxs. On the diminished? : Mr. Burcu. On the diminished reservation. Mr. Nicuots. Well, as you know, over a million and a quarter. Mr. Burcu. What did you charge up against your purchase ac- count? I want to know, in other words, how much the Indians got of that million and a quarter? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I think we paid out—— Mr. Burcu. For their timber? Mr. Nicuots. I think we paid out of that—I think about between 4 and 5 per cent commission. The Indians got the balance. Mr. Burcu. Was not Beaulieu’s commission 7 per cent alone, in addition to his regular salary? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; less than 5. Mr. Burcu. Then, if he testified that it was 7 per cent he testified untruthfully? _ Mr. Nicuots. He did not know what he was testifying. I will tell you, Judge. There was the same case that was brought against Mr. Beaulieu at Fergus Falls. Those cases covered some fifty-odd pur- chases, and the commissions on those—express ones—were somewhere. between 6 and 7 per cent—a little over 7, 74. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9927 Mr. Burcu. What I want to know is, if you know how much money actually reached those Indians of that $1,250,000? Mr. Nicuots. Well, there was $1,260,000 or $1,270,000 or $1,280,000. a I should say that we paid commissions on perhaps a million ollars. Mr. Burcu. I don’t want to know about commissions; I want to know how much was paid the Indians, if you know? Mr. Nicuots. Every dollar except the commissions, Judge, and those commissions would be—we paid the Indians something over $1,200,000. . Mr. Burcu. Will you state as a matter of fact that upwards of $550,000 of that money actually reached the hands of those Indians from whom you purchased—I mean the aggregate hands of those Indians from whom you purchased that pine, directly or indirectly ? Mr. Nicuots. I explained, Judge, that about a million of that we bought direct from the Indians through our agents; the balance of it we bought from parties who had already bought from the Indians, and who deeded to us‘on warranty deeds. Now, for the timber which we bought direct’ from the Indians, with the exception of the com- missions which we paid, every dollar went to the Indians. We drew our checks to every Indian from whom we bought. Mr. Burcu. Do you say that your checks show that you paid a million dollars direct into the hands of the Indians for timber on that diminished reservation ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorexr. Less 5 per cent. The Carman. No; the million dollars would be net, a million and a quarter. Mr. Nicnots. No; I say a million dollars less the commissions. Mr. Georce. But a million dollars, I understood him to say. The Cuatrman. Well, awhile ago he stated that there was Mr. Nicuots. I think we bought in the neighborhood of a quarter of a million from other parties who had purchased from the Indians. They deeded to us by warranty deeds. I do not think we paid Mr. Beaulieu and Fairbanks any commission on that. But on the stuff they bought we paid a commission, which would amount to a million dollars, maybe more. Mr. Georcr. Then Beaulieu and Fairbanks received a commission from you of practically $50,000? ; Mr. Nicuots. In the neighborhood of $50,000; yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. For what they did in purchasing this pine from the Indians? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. . ; : The Cuamman. And if Mr. Beaulieu is right in his testimony, it would be about $75,000, 74 per cent. ; Mr. Nicnots. Well, he is wrong; he is mistaken. Mr. Burcu. Do you mean to say that this is represented by checks that you actually passed into the hands of these Indians? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, those Indians gave orders on some people authorizing us to pay other parties, some of them. — Mr. Burcu. Ah! You did not take pains to investigate to see what—how these orders were procured, or whether they represented some sort of a skull-duggery business upon the part of those people? 2228 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuots. We did, Judge, and we were sued a number of times for not paying those orders; and after we found out how they were procured, those orders, we positively refused to accept any of them. Mr. Burcu. I again ask you the question, do you mean to say that you traced into the hands of the Indians themselves a million dollars in money, or in your checks to their order, so they were absolutely within their control—I mean the Indians’ control, the allottees’ con- trol—a million dollars or upward ? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have you the figures with you? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I have not. Mr. Burcu. Have you got the books with you? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. How do you know this? Mr. Nicnors. I know from our records that we paid that amount. Mr. Burcu. Are you the bookkeeper? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. The Cuatrman. Now, your minds do not seem to meet again on one proposition. Mr. Nichols stated awhile ago that they paid them a million, but that included payments made to others on orders from the Indians; therefore he could not have paid a million to the Indians, as he has stated since that. How is that? Mr. Nicnots. Well, I understood the judge to say through the order of the Indians and checks direct to him. The Cuarrman. Well, as I understand the judge, he wants to get from you the amount of money you paid to the Indians, excluding the amount of Indians’ money you paid to others on orders. Mr. Nicuots. I could not say that. The Cuarrman. Am I right, Judge? Mr. Burcu. Yes, indeed. Mr. Nicuots. Well, I could not tell; I could not tell, because we paid quite a few orders that they gave. Mr. Burcu. Quite a few? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, I put to you the question, Can you say of your own knowledge now, you, Mr. Nichols, of the Nichols-Chisholm Lum- ber Co., can you say that you traced into the hands of these Indian allottees, of money that you know went into their hands, $500,000 of that money ? Mr. Nicuots. I know there is more than that. I have not traced it myself, but I am positive. I know that there is more than that went ary into the hands of the Indians by checks that we issued to them. Mr. Burcu. How do you know? A check is not money. Mr. Nicuors. Oh, judge—well, I could not tell about that. Mr. Burcu. And the check might go to Tom, Dick, and aery Mr. Grorcr. How many of those Indians have bank accounts Mr. Nicuots. I could not say. Mr. Grorcr. What would they do with a check if they got it? Mr. Nicuors. They would take it, cash it, or get it de pouitatl I suppose. fe CrarrMaNn. Or assign it to a storekeeper with whom they traded. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2229 Mr. Burcu. In fact, didn’t you pay it in duebills that were bandied around from store to store? Mr. Nicuors. We paid them all in duebills, but we made them non- negotiable. Still, they would go and dicker them off. The Cuamman. Do you understand that the issuer of a bill can make it nonnegotiable by calling it so? Mr. Nicuots. I don’t know that he can, but we thought it would prevent them from dickering it off. Mr. Burcu. Then you have no means of knowing yourself how much money actually went into the hands of these Indian allottees? Mr. Nicnots. We had no way of knowing what they did with the checks after we gave them to the Indians, Judge. a Burcu. You charged up to this account $1,250,000 and up- ward? . Mr. Nicuots. The estimate was that. Mr. Burcu. Yes. Didn’t that’ include all expenses that were in- curred in getting hold of that timber? Mr. Nicuors. Not an expense at all, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Not a single expense? Mr. Nicuots. Not one. Mr. Burcu. Just the face of the amount that you paid for the timber itself? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir; less the commission. Mr. Burcu. Then, if Mr. Bockus testified other than that his tes- timony is incorrect ? Mr. Nicwots. It must be. Mr. Burcu. He was the bookkeeper ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. He drew the checks? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How can you be correct and he not be correct, then, if he testified differently from what you are testifying now? Mr. Nicwoxs. Well, I think he must have made a mistake, because we paid for the timber that we bought on the reservation over $1,250,000, including the commissions that we paid Beaulieu and Fairbanks, and I think Mr. Bockus must have been mistaken if he testified anything else. Mr. Burcu. Well, we think it is you—but that is a matter of opinion. Mr. Nicnors. What did Mr. Bockus testify? I have not seen his testimony. ; Mr. Burcu. Now, was not that $25,000 which Mr. Holmes held you up for on the dam site included in that amount? Mr. Nicuots. What is that? Mr. Burcu. On the dam site. Mr. Nicuors. Well, I could not say. ; Mr. Burcu. Was it not included against this charge? Mr. Nicnoxs. I could not say. : The Cuamman. There is a “dam site” of inference in that ques- tion. Mr. Nicuors. Well, I could not say, Judge, whether it was or not. Mr. Burcu. He knows what I mean. Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. 2230 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. If it was, would that be a legitimate charge against ‘the Indians? Mr. Nicnots. No; it would not. Mr. Burcu. You paid that money yourselves, didn’t you? Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; I could not say whether that was in this or not. Mr. Burcu. If the committee—well, I don’t think it is germane to this occurrence; my friend Powell can try that out or the committee can; I won’t bother with it. Now, in truth and in fact, is it not so that this $1,250,000 represented every description of expense that that company was put to from the time it began to get hold of this timber, or attempted to, up to the time it ceased to purchase the timber ? Mr. Nicrrots. No, sir; my understanding of it is that that was the purchase price; that is, the money we paid to procure the lands and timber on the White Earth Reservation, with, of course, the commis- sions included. Mr. Burcu. What was Mr. Herman Bockus’s capacity in your business ? Mr. Nicuous. He was chief clerk in our office. He had charge of our office. Mr. Burcu. Wasn’t he, in fact, Mr. Shevlin’s trusted man there? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I could not say that he was his trusted man any more than the rest of his. Mr. Burcu. I mean in his capacity ? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Shevlin at all times owned a controlling stock in your concern, did he not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. If men were there, as a rule, in important positions he placed them, did he not? Mr. Nicuors. Mr. Bockus was there before Mr. Shevlin had any- thing to do with the concern. Mr. Burcu. Well, he continued in there? Mr. Nicuous. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know a man named Lenox in your institution? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did Mr. Shevlin place him there? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. : aa pee Did he have to O. K. these checks before they were issued ? Mr. Nicuors. While he was there he countersigned them. Mr. Burcu. They would not go until he countersigned them? Mr. Nicxots. Or somebody else—I countersigned a good many myself. If Mr, Lenox was there he countersigned them; if he hap- pened to be out I countersigned them; but Mr. Bockus made the checks and Mr. Lenox countersigned them, generally. _ Mr. Burcu. Were the expenses you incurred in defending Beau- lieu at the Fergus Falls trial charged against the Indian lumber account ? Mr. Nicuons. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How much was it? Mr. Nicuors. I do not know. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2231 Mr. Burcu. How about the expense of preparing for this inves- tigating committee? Was that charged against the Indian? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. I mean the lumber account? - Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Not at all? Mr. Nicuots. Put into this account? You mean as charged against the Indian for purchase of the timber? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Borcx. Was not included in the million and a quarter? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not to my knowledege. Mr. Burcu. Now, from whom did your company get information about who owned the different allotments made under the Steenerson Act, the additional allotments of the pines? Mr. Nicwous. Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Burcu. He was the man that secured it for you? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know how? Mr. Nicwots. Well, I don’t exactly know how he got them, but I know that the allottee would go to the office and get the description of his allotment when he wanted to sell his timber—go to the Gov- ernment office, the Indian agent—and get it on a slip. Mr. Burcu. Did Mr. Beaulieu have access to the office? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I couid not say. Mr. Burcu. Had you? Mr. Nicuots. I presume I had; I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever go in? Mr. Nicos. Yes; I have been-in the office a number of times. Mr. Burcu. Weren’t you up there every week that you were pur- chasing this timber, for the first six months or a year? Mr. Nicuots. I was there quite frequently. Mr. Burcu. Were you there half the time? Mr. Nicnoxs. Two or three days at a time. No; I was not there half the time, or a quarter of the time. Mr. Burcu. Were you directing Beaulieu’s and Fairbanks’s move- ments in getting hold of the timber? Mr. Nicuots. I gave them the prices. Mr. Burcu. Did you instruct them how to go and collar the allot- tees and bring them in? Mr. Nicuwots. No, sir. . Mr. Burcu. I won’t say “collar” them, because they might not have had any collars; but bring them in? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. : Mr. Burcu. The proposition was that Beaulieu would round up the allottees and bring them in and you would ae Beaulieu the price that you would pay, and he would go in and find out which his allot- ment was? Mr. Nicuors. I presume so. Mr. Burcu. Did he find out which the allotment was after you had put the price on or before? ay ; Mr. Nicnors. I could not say. I had this timber estimated as soon as the Clapp Act was passed. As soon as the Clapp Act went into effect we put in our cruisers to work. We did not have an estimate 2332 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. for each forty, but as fast as I got an estimate on the timber I sent them up there. I did not know how it was allotted or how they came together, but I would put a price per 40 on the timber. Mr. Burcu. As fast as you cee your allotments—your estimates, I mean—you bought if you could? Mr. Nicuots. Just as soon as we got our estimates. Mr. Burcu. In that way your agent had to find out who the al- lottee was? Mr. Nicuots. Sure. Mr. Burcu. They had to get that out of the office? Mr. Nicuots. Out of the office, I suppose. Mr. Burcu. Well, then, if they have testified that no such informa- tion as that was furnished except that which they furnished to the allottee it would not have been true? Mr. Nicwots. I don’t know how they got it, whether through the allottee or through the agent. Mr. Georce. Mr. Nichols, you would not be satisfied with any in- formation that did not come from headquarters, would you? Mr. Nicuots. I would be satisfied with any information that Beau- lieu gave me. Mr. Grorcr. You supposed he would get authoritative information that came directly from the office? Just answer that. Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. You wanted Government information, and you ° thought Beaulieu would get it, and you would not have been satisfied with any other? Mr. Nicuotrs. No. I will tell you. Many an allottee came to me to sell his timber, and he did not know what his allotment was, and I said, “I don’t know what it is. You will have to get your descrip- tion and show it to me.” He would then go to the office and come back with a slip of paper which had written on it allotment No. so-and-so, describing the southeast quarter of the southwest quarter or the south- west quarter of the southeast quarter of such a range. Mr. Grorcs. And being good business men, you would want to Inow with reasonable surety that those figures had been put there by somebody who spoke with authority ? Mr. Nicos. Through somebody in the office. Mr. Grorce. Whom did you suppose that somebody was? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I will tell you. As near as I can tell, it was. George A. Morrison; I got to know his handwriting. Mr. Grorce. Did you talk with anybody about that—about who put those figures on those slips? Mr. Nicuots. They told me—the allottees. Mr. Grorcr. And Mr. Shevlin thought that would come under the Michelet administration, and that it would be perfectly safe for you to do business on that? Mr. Nicuots. I understood they got it from the clerk in the office. on Grorcz. You are too good a business man to buy a pig in a poke. Mr. Nicuors. When we bought that timber we made a contract and paid a very small amount on it under the contract until they fur- nished us title. Mr. Grorce. But you wanted to know all about those figures? Mr. Nicnots. Sure. ¥ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2233 Mr. Burcu. Did you ever have any business dealings with Simon Michelet ? Mr. Nicuors. When he was Indian agent; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What? Mr. NicHots. I bought some inherited Indian lands. Mr. Burcu. From Simon Michelet? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, the agent. Mr. Burcu. I do not mean as agent. Did you ever have any deal- ings with Simon Michelet as Simon Michelet, not as agent? a Nicuots. I bought logs from him which were advertised for sale. Mr. Burcu. I do not speak of Government timber or inherited lands. I speak of business transactions. Mr. Nicuots. That is the only business I ever had with Simon Michelet. _ Mr. Burcu. Did you ever enter into any contracts with him, oral or otherwise? Mr. Nicos. I never did; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did anybody for you? Mr. Nicuots. Not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Was any money ever paid to him that did not go to him officially ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not that I know of. Oh, it might have been. I believe he made some little collections in the years 1909 or 1910. Mr. Burcu. No; I am speaking of before he left the office. Mr. Nicuots. No; not a dollar. Mr. Burcu. You never made him any present? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Nor anybody in your company ? Mr. Nicuots. Not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. What does that mean, “know of”? Mr. Nicors. Well, I don’t know of anybody in our company that made him a present. Mr. Burcu. You never heard of such a thing? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; I never did. Mr. Burcu. Do you know anything about an attempt on the part of Winton—D. M. or D. N. Winton—to get hold of this pine before the Clapp rider took effect? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I do not. ; : Mr. Burcu. To get the full-blood pine and minor pine? The pine belonging to the full bloods and minor children? Mr. Nicwots. I do not—David Winton, D. N. Winton? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. After 1906, you mean? Mr. Burcu. Yes; during the summer of 1906, Mr. Nicwots. I know he was trying to buy timber on the reserva- tion. Mr. Burcu. You did not know of his making a proposition to the Government authorities to get hold of the pine belonging to the full bloods and the minors of the mixed bloods under the Clapp rider of 1904? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I did not. Mr. Burcu. Did you made any such attempts? 73822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-8, vol 2——46 2234 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicroxs. No, sir. . Mr. Burcu. Did you know that Mr. Winton made a bid to the Government of $10 and $12 for the pine belonging to the full bloods and minors of the mixed bloods? Mr. Nicuors. I did not. Mr. Burcu. Never heard of that? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you make any bid ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you make any effort to get hold of that pine? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I think not. Mr. Burcu. Did you, through Mr. Beaulieu, make efforts to have full bloods declared competent, in order to get their pine? Mr. Nicnots. I did not; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. Never? Mr. Nicuots. Never. Mr. Burcu. Did you know of Beaulieu’s doing it in your interest ? Mr. Nicwous. I knew that they got some passed as competent. There were some passed as competent. Mr. Borcu. That is what I mean. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You knew of that? Mr. Nicuors. Yes; I knew of that after they had passed and got their deeds. I never knew it before. Mr. Burcu. And you bought it? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. He was in your employ when he was doing it? Mr. Nicuots. I don’t know that Beaulieu did it. Mr. Burcu. Whom do you think did it? Mr. Nicwots. I presumed they did it themselves. I can tell you one instance, gentlemen, if you would like to hear it, where an Indian came to our office by the name of James Rock, as bright and intelligent a man as there is in our part of the country, well edu- cated, and his wife is a school teacher, as I understand it; and he wanted to sell his timber. I had corresponded with him for two years; he said he would not sell to those fellows at White Earth. After a year or two of this correspondence he came over to see us, and represented himself to be a mixed blood, and I guess he is, and everybody would take him to be a mixed blood. He made the affi- davit that he was a mixed blood, and his wife made affidavit that he was a mixed blood, and we bought his timber in our office and paid him a certain amount down, and he made application for a fee-simple patent, as we supposed. I don’t know whom he made it through or who recommended him or anything about it. Some time afterwards I wrote him and asked him if he was ready to perfect his title to come over, as we would like to make a settle- ment. He wrote us and said he found he guessed he was a full blood, and he said that he had been told that full bloods did not have a right to sell their timber. Why, I said, we thoroughly understood that; we knew that full bloods had no right to sell their timber; but when a man as intelligent as you are and as good a scholar as you are and who writes as good a letter comes here with his wife, prac- tically a white woman, and makes affidavit saying that he was mixed WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2235 blood, and took oath to that effect and has witnesses to it, I don’t know what other protection we have. If you were a Negro and Indian we would not have taken your word ; but under those circumstances I do not know what protection we have. So I gathered up the amount of letters that he had written me and that I had written him and the correspondence, and sent them on to Washington and told them to look into the matter and see who was to blame for it. I noticed a short time after that the fellow sent over his deed, his patent to the land. Mr. Burcw. Who, Rock? Mr. Nicuots. James Rock. Mr, Burcu. Whom did you send them to here in Washington ? Mr. Nicuots. I think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, if I am not mistaken. Mr. Burcu. Direct? Mr. Nicnots. I think so. Mr. Burcu. Did you do it yourself? Mr. Nicwoxs. No; I sent them over to Mr. Beaulieu, and he for- warded them, and they are here on file to-day, I presume, in some part of the department. Now, whether he got his patent as being a competent or a full blood I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Did you buy out Weyerhauser’s interest? Mr. Nicuots. I bought timber that ay had there. Mr. Burcu. How did that come about ? Mr. Nicnoxs. Well, it was in 1907 or 1908, I forget which; they. wanted to sell what they had there. Mr. Burcu. They could not get much of a foothold? Mr. Nicnors. They did not buy much; they had not bought very much. Mr. Burcu. What was the reason that nobody could get that pine, nobody’s money seemed to be good except the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co.? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I will tell you. Nobody else was willing te pay the price we paid. There was a chance for all the competition in the world. I know that Weyerhaeuser’s men. : Mr. Burcu. How do you know? Mr. Nicuots. Would come up there and offer prices on lots of that timber where we had a good deal bigger price on it many times. Mr. Burcu. Now, Winton bid more and Herrick bid more, and you were the third bidder at the time of the bid, and here was a situation where it was individual allottees each dealing by himself, emanci- pated under the Clapp rider. These men came up there and tried to get a focthold; for instance, E. G. Holmes, and the people right there; they could not deal with those Indians at all, but you seemed to be able to deal with them; how do you account for that? Mr. Nicwons. Well there were a good many dealt with them— because we offered to pay more than they did. Mr. Burcu. Well, who else dealt with them? Mr. Nicuors. E. G. Holmes and a good many. Mr. Burcu. Did he buy any pine? Mr. Nicuots. Sure. Mr. Burcu. Holmes got pine? . Mr. Nicuors. Sure; considerable of it; a lot of pine. Mr. Burcu. Who else? 2236 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuors. Oh, a great many there; Colby got pine, and the First National Bank, Anderson, and ever so many. Mr. Burcu. That was small scattering pine; it was not in the heart of this Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; right in the heart. Mr. Burcu. Who else? Mr. Nicnots. Oh, a great many there got pine; the First National Bank, Annison, and ever so many. ; Mr. Burcu. That was small scattering pine; it was not in the heart of this pine? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; right in the heart of it, right among our stuff. Mr. Burcu. Was it not as a matter of fact the control Beaulieu and Fairbanks and the other agent, Warren, had over these Indians, and your employment and the commission you paid to these men who had this influence that secured you the great bulk of that pine, rather than the prices you paid? Mr. Nicwors. Not at all; it was the prices alone that bought it, and I can tell you Mr. Fairbanks and Mr. Warren never worked for us a dav in the world. Mr. Borcu. Mr. Fairbanks never did? Mr. Nicnous. Mr. Warren never did. Mr. Fairbanks was em- ployed, as well as Mr. Warren, by David Winton to buy timber, and when Mr. Winton was not willing to stay any longer, he then was employed by the Pine Tree Lumber Co., and Mr. Fairbanks con- tinued in their employ until some time, I would say the 1st of August, until the first part of the winter of 1907, somewhere along there, trying to buy timber for the Pine Tree Lumber Co. Mr. Burcn. How much pine did you take off this reservation ? Mr. Nicuots. At the present time? Mr. Burcu. Well, how much off of those 32 townships? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say. Mr. Burcu. Have you no idea? Mr. Nicwots. We have cut timber off of there for three years. We have probably cut timber off, 90,000,000—80,000,000 to 90,000,000— 80,000,000 feet anyway. Mr. Burcu. How much have you got standing? Mr. Nicnots. We have got in the neighborhood of 70,000,000 feet. I should judge, 70,000,000 to 80,000,000 feet. Mr. Burcu. That would be 160,000,000-feet. Mr. Nicuors. Yes; somewhere near there. Mr. Burcu. What proportion will run white pine and what pro- portion Norway pine? Mr. Nicwozs. It will run a little more to Norway than to white, perhaps 6 per cent Norway, our stuff will. Mr. Burcu. Now, counting it 60 per cent Norway. Mr. Nicuots. Forty per cent white pine, I should judge. Mr. Burcu. About 40 per cent white pine. How much would that show a thousand feet you had to pay for this pine? Mr. Nicuots. I think about $8.50. Mr. Burcu. Including all these expenses of commissions and everything of that kind? Mr. Nicuots. Well, there were not any expenses, Judge, outside of the commissions charged in that purchase price. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2237 Mr. Burcu. You are sure of that? We will not go over that matter again. Now, then, if Mr. Herrick bid $9 a thousand on the Norway and $11 a thousand on the white pine, you were not the highest persons in paying these Indians for that pine, offering these Indians ? Mr. Nicuors. I was not what? Mr. Burcu. You did not pay as high a price, then, for this pine as they had offered to take it at? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. You got it away down below that, several hundred thousand dollars below ? Mr. Nicuots. We got it considerably below that; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, if Mr. Winton had offered to buy in 1906 at $10 and Bl? a thousand, that would make it a still greater amount, would it not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then, as a matter of fact, the Indians lost heavily in the aggregate; even counting that they got all the money that passed out of your hands, they lost heavily in the aggregate between the Herrick bids and the Winton bids, after the Herrick bids and what you actually paid? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; if they had got the prices that were offered there they would have got more money. Mr. Burcu. Now, you say the Weverhaeusers succeeded in getting a small amount of this pine? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Others got an amount of this pine altogether aggre- gating a couple of hundred thousand dollars’ worth. Mr. Nicuors.- How much did the Weyerhaeusers get? Mr. Burcu. No; I say the whole of the people, besides yourself, the people you bought in from and who had purchased from the allotees ? Mr. Nicuors. I should judge the stuff we Lought from other parties, outside of the allottees, was probably in the neighborhood of a quarter of a million feet. That is a guess. an Burcxu. Of course, you do not know what they paid the In- ians ? Mr. Nicuots. I do not know anything about it; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. So, if they paid the Indians as much as you gave them, and made no profit whatever, the Indians were heavy losers by the rejection of the Herrick bid, on the face of things? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir; they would have got more money. Mr. Burcu. By about how much? Mr. Nicuots. Oh, I do not know; two or three hundred thousand dollars, perhaps. : The Cuarrman. What is that would have yielded them two or three hundred thousand dollars more money? | Mr. Burcu. The acceptance of the Herrick bid. The Cuarrman. I missed that question. ; : Mr. Burcu. Well, the acceptance of the Herrick bid. Now, 60 per cent of 160,000,000 feet would be 96,000,000 feet of Norway pine, at $10 bid by Herrick would be $960,000. would it not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. 9238 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. And 40 per cent would be 64,000,000 feet of white pine at $12? Mr. Nicnors. At $11. Mr. Burcu. Approximately, then, these Indians, for what you paid $1,250,000 through these commission men and buyers at second hand under the Herrick bid, there would have been paid $1,600,000, would there not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; according to those figures. Mr. Burcu. Then, even if the Indians got every dollar of what you paid to the middlemen and paid to your agents—the commission men and the Indian—there would have been a difference of substan- tially $350,000 and $400,000. Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, candidly, how much of that do you think the Indians got? I mean, how much of that million dollars that you say went into the hands of people for the Indian; how much do you suppose they really got after this order business was worked through, our giving them due bills and their. assigning them, and, after Benilien got through thrashing out with them and Fairbanks and these other people, orders on Lesey’s store and other stores; how much do you suppose those Indians really got in money? Mr. Nicuots. That would be pretty hard for me to say, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Candidly, between man and man, I want your opinion in regard to how much those Indians got of that. Mr. Nicuots. I could not say. It would be impossible for me to say about that. ; Mr. Burcu. Give your best judgment. Mr. Nicuots. My judgment would not be worth very much. It is a pretty hard question to put up to me. I could not guess what they did with it. Mr. Grorcr. Did they get the major part of it, a half of it, or a quarter of it? : Mr. Nicuots. Now, they got their checks. : Mr. Gzorce. Now you live in that country and know exactly the usages of the Indians and those about the Indians. What is your judgment? That is what the judge is trying to get. Mr. Nicuots. I could not say, they might have taken everything from them and might have taken most of it. Mr. Grorcz. What is your judgment, the way you know the coun- try and the way people are taking away from the Indians? Mr. Nicuots. My judgment would not be any better than any- body’s a thousand miles from there. Mr: Grorcr. Will you kindly answer that question ? Mr. Nicwots. I éan not answer it; that is all. Mr: Georce. That is all? Mr. Nicwors. I can not answer it intelligently. We live at Frazee. Mr. Grorcr. My judgment is, he does not want to answer it. Mr. Nicuots. It is not so, Mr. George. I can not answer it in- telligently. We live at Frazee, Minn. The Indians would come in there to our office about 12 o’clock and leave at 3; they never spent but very little money at Frazee; they got their checks cashed, if they got them cashed there, and took their money away. They were there just a little, short time, and, if they got their checks cashed in WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2239 Frazee, they got every dollar and took it away with them; if not, they went to Detroit and got them cashed there, and what they did with it there would be pretty had for me to guess, but I have heard that many of them were beaten out of their money, and no doubt they were. Mr. Grorcr. But you were brought up in that country and have had transactions with the Indians yourself and know about their transactions and other people’s transactions, about your own trans- actions, and you could tell something about how other people behaved about the Indians. Mr. Nicuots. If I judge about our own transactions, we paid them every dollar. Mr. Grorcx. You know about other people. Were they like yours? Mr. Nicuots. The other people’s transactions, many of them, as I have heard, were not like ours, but personally I did not know of oa one personal case, but 1 heard a good many say the Indians were eaten. Mr. Georcez. If I lived in that country, I would know something about that. But you have intimate connection with those people and should know. ; Mr. Nicnors. It would only be in a general way, and I have been told the Indians have been beaten badly. The Cuarrman. The due bills you issued, as I understand you, were issued partly, at least, with a view to preventing the Indian from getting the money on them. Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. And for that purpose you marked them on their face with the word “ Nonnegotiable”? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Of course, you knew that did not make them non- negotiable, and it was in the nature of a bluff. Mr. Nicuoxs. That is it exactly. The Cuamman. Did you not know, or might you not easily have known, that if the Indians did negotiate them under those circum- stances they would probably have to stand a pretty stiff discount in raising money on them? Mr. Nicwoxs. Yes, sir. The Cuarman. Did you not also know, from your knowledge of the Indian, that he would try very hard and would probably stand a very big discount to get money on them? Mr. Nicwors. Well, we supposed they would, but let me say, judge, right here, we told many of the Indians if they had to have a little money to come back to us, not to sell their due bills or trans- fer them, to come to us and if they needed the money we would advance them a little and give them another due bill, which we did many a time. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Nichols, have you ever known that persons that work in your countingroom at Frazee or about you office fur- nished lists of those two bills that you gave to Fred Sanders and others, so they could get their whack at these Indians’ money. Mr. Nicwozs. I never knew such a thing to happen. Mr. Burcu. You never knew such a fact? ; Mr. Nicuoxs. No, sir; that is the first intimation I have had of it that they furnished a list to Fred Sanders. 2240 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. That men connected with your office furnished lists to Fred Sanders on occasions? Mr. Nicuots. That is the first I ever knew of it. Mr. Burcu. Your scheme in giving these duebills to protect the Indians was not to get them in such shape that they would have a chance to lose that money in having somebody cash these duebills for them ? Mr. Nicuous. We tried our best to persuade them to not have them cashed, and also we were compelled to give them a duebill, because they had to have it; they knew they had a certain amount due them. Mr. Burcu. But if you paid those Indians in cash they would not have had to go to anybody to get those duebills cashed, would they? Mr. Nicuots. There was nothing due them at the time we gave them those duebills. Mr. Burcu. You simply were paying them an earnest money and holding back these duebills, by means of these duebills, until they got the title? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then they would go off and defraud you by negotiat- ing these duebills and not give the title, or before you got the title? Is that the idea? Mr. Nicuots. We had to give them duebills to show they had a certain amount coming when they delivered title to us. Mr. Burcu. And these people who took these duebills would take that chance on them? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Therefore they would have an excuse, as we say, for discounting them ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then, if a man presented a duebill to me from you, stating that at a certain time and on the happening of a certain con- tingency you would owe him so much, and he wanted the money on it, naturally if he went to a so-called banker or broker or note shaver that man would charge him pretty heavily, naturally, for the chance on the contingency, would he not? Mr. Nicwots. Sure; they would not buy it unless there was money in it for them. Mr. Burcu. Were you interested in the White Earth Bank? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. In the Chippewa Bank there at White Earth? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Were you ever informed that they paid more than 20 pet cout dividends during this season you were giving out these due- ills? Mr. Nicuoxs. No, sir; I never saw any account of it. Mr. Burcu. Almost wholly out of the proceeds of these duebills, which they afterwards got you to cash? Mr. Nicuots. I never heard of that. Mr. Burcu. Do you know that large numbers of these duebills were presented by them to you? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I do not think there were a great many of them discounted. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2241 Mr. Burcu. Do you know of their being forwarded to the banks at Minneapolis and being rediscounted and then returned from there to you for payment? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Burcu. Do you know they were not? Mr. Nicwors. I do not think there were very many of them; there might have been a few of them. Mr. Burcu. Who did present the most of these duebills? Mr. Nicuors. I could not recall that. I think the allottees them- selves, if I am not mistaken. Mr. Burcu. You think there were not very many of them dis- counted at all? ; Mr. Nicuots. I do not think very many of them. Mr. Burcu. They had the courage to hold on to them themselves, had they? Mr. Nicuots. Some of them did—a great many—yes. Mr. Burcu. What proportion—how many of them? Mr. Nicuors. I should say 75 per cent of them, at least; maybe more. Mr. Burcu. That is your best judgment? Mr. Nicuots. I think so. Mr. Burcu. They got the money on them themselves? Mr. Nicuots. I think so. Mr. Burcu. When they got the fee-simple patent? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Not until then? Mr. Nicuots. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Have you still those duebills uncanceled, undestroyed ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. They could be had ? Mr. Nicuoxs. Sure—what are you speaking of, duebills? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. I presume we have them all; yes. Mr. Burcu. You do not know? Mr. Nicwors. I think likely we have; I am pretty sure we have. Mr. Burcu. The Park Rapids Lumber Co. bought some of this pine that Herrick had bid for—you had bid for? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. Mr. Burcu. The Wild Rice Lumber Co. bought some of it? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. a: Mr. Burcu. Do you know how many millions each ? Mr. Nicuots. I do not. ! Mr. Burcu. If they had purchased, respectively, 58,000,000 feet of that and at substantially a proportionate figure for what you paid for yours, that would have been added to the loss of the Indians if the Herrick bid had not been rejected ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. In the same proportion that 58 would be to 160. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. I think perhaps I have not anything further to ask Mr. Nichols; at least, I do not think of anything just now. | Mr. Gzorce. I would like to ask about this Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co. What company was that? 22429 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuots. The Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co. is a retail lumber company; has a line of yards in Minnesota. Mr. Gzorcr. What had Mr. Shevlin to do with that company? | Mr. Nicuots. I do not think a thing; no interest whatever that I know of; to my knowledge I do not think he had. Mr. Grorcs. What had you to do with it? Mr. Nicuors. Not a thing in the world. Mr. Grorce. What had any member of your company to do with it? Mr. Nicuors. Nothing that I know of. Mr. Grorcr. How in the world did this company—how did Mr. Shevlin have to do with the trick bid of this company ? Mr. Nicnoxs. How is that? Mr. Gxorce. I understood you to say that Mr. Shevlin fixed up a trick bid for that company. Mr. Nicuots. He fixed up the bids, Mr. George, you can call them what you please, trick bids. Mr. Gezorcr. You said that was what it was. Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes; I admit that, sure. Mr. Grorcr. What had he to do with the fixing of that bid? Mr. Nicnors. He made the bids out. Mr. Grorcr. Did he make the bid of that company ? Mr. Nicuots. I think he did. Mr. Grorcr. What had he to do with that company ? Mr. Nicnots. I do not know that he had anything much than to know the company put in the bid in their name. Mr. Grorez. Something was said that he put in a bid in that name. Mr. Nicuots. If they were willing, he could. Mr. Grorcr. Was that company willing to have him do that? Mr. Nicwoxs. I presume they were. Mr. Grorcr. And he had no business relations with that company. Mr. Nicuors. Not that I know of. Mr. Grorcr. Is that company doing business now? Mr. Nicwoxs. I think they are. Mr. Grorcr. Has it any relation to your company ? Mr. Nicuors. None at all whatever, buys lumber from us once in awhile, we sell them some lumber. Mr. Gzorcr. If that company had got the bid, supposing its bid had won, then where would Mr. Shevlin have been on that bid? Mr. Nicwors. He would have got the bid. Mr. Grorcr. He would not have got it, it would be the Lyman- Erwin Co. Mr. Nicuotrs. I know it would have been the Lyman-Erwin Co., it would have been awarded to the Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co., but Mr. Shevlin would carry it out. Mr. Georcz. How would he do it if he has nothing to do with that company ? Mr. Nicuors. He got their consent to put in the. bid in their name, aT a eee it. r. Georce. Supposing they got the award, they would get the award, Mr. Shevlin monld not a it. ai ‘ Mr. Nicuots. But he could carry out their award, couldn’t he? Mr. Grorcsz. No; I do not see how he could. Mr. Nicxots. Perhaps he could not. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2243 Mr. Grorce. You do not make that very plain to me as to what he had to do. You say he made a trick bid for them, also for you? Mr. Nicuots. He put in one Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. bid, and one in the name of the Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co. aye Gronce, He had nothing to do with the Lyman-Erwin Lum- ber Co. ? Mr. Nicuoxs. Not that I know of. . Mr. Grorce. If he got the award it would be their award, and he would have been the loser? Mr. Nicuozs. I do not understand it so. Mr. Grorcr. He had nothing to do with the company, but they would have got the award if the award had gone to that company. Mr. Nicuoxs. That is what I understand. Mr. Grorcz. What kind of a shuffle is that? Mr. Nicwoxs. I do not know, maybe Mr. Powell can tell more about that than I can, he is the attorney. Mr. Georce. It is a queer sort of thing to me. Here are two com- panies and they put in two bids by collusion, and you said if one company did not get it, the other company would get it. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Greorcr. And you said Mr. Shevlin made both bids? Mr. Nicuoxs. He did. Me Grorce. And you said Mr. Shevlin had to do with your com- pany? Mr. Nicuots. He did. Mr. Grorce. But you do not know that he had anything to do with the other company; in fact, you said he had nothing to do with it? Mr. Nicuors. I do not think he had; possibly he has, but not to my knowledge. Mr. Grorce. He was making a bid for another company that was a rival to your company ? Mr. Nicuoxs. They were not manufacturers, you understand; they were just a retail lumber company. Mr. Grorer. And if they got the timber, what then? Mr. Nicuots. They would have to turn it to us, I presume; had no way to manufacture it. Mr. Georcr. It is a queer relationship. Mr. Shevlin was a very shrewd timberman and he makes out two trick bids, and one company he is the largest shareholder in and he makes a trick bid for that com- pany and makes a trick bid for another company with which he has no relations whatever. : Mr. Nicuots. Not to my knowledge; he may have some relations to it, but I do not know. Mr. Grorcz. But by your statement one or the other company would get the bid? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. fn on . Mr. Georce. If you did not get it, then this rival company of his would get it? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Grorcr. I did not understand that Mr. Shevlin was in that for his health, I thought he was doing this thing for business reasons and wanted his company to get that timber, but by your statement the other company might have got it. If your company could not 2244 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ‘get it the other company could get it and you would be handing it generously to this other company without any expectation of gain. Mr. Nicuors. The other company were not putting any money in it. Mr. Georcr. They were a fake company, then? Mr. Nicuots. Not a fake company. Mr. Grorcs. Just to make an appearance of a bid? Mr. Nicwozs. I presume so. Mr. Grorce. So it was worse than a fake bid; it was a double fake bid? Mr. Nicuots. Mr. Shevlin put in the two bids. Mr. Grorce. You do not mean what you said—that this was a real bid? Mr. Nicuots. It was a real bid. Mr. Georcr. This Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co. bid was not a real bid, was it? Mr. Nicuotzs. It was a real bid. Mr. Grorcr. You went through the form, but you did not expect that company would get it? Mr. Nicuors. The Lyman-Erwin Co.? Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Nicnots. If their bid was the highest, we expected they would. Mr. Grorce. But you said—at one time you said you did not expect to get it and another time you said‘ you, thought either your com- pany or their company weuld get it? Mr. Nicuots. I did not realize what I was saying if I said that. Mr. Burcu. Did not Mr. Shevlin own both these companies? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did he not own the Lyman-Erwin Co. ? Mr. Nicuots. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Was he not the owner of controlling stock in the Lyman-Erwin Co.? Mr. Nicuots. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Then, they were merely dummies for hin? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; he might have owned some stock. Mr. Burcu. That is the term we use; they were allowing their name to be used by him. Mr. Grorcr. Yes; I think that is true. Now, about this adver- tising for the sale of the time, you said that you concluded that the Government officials who put in this advertisement were either fool- ish or corrupt. Mr. Nicos. Something—something wrong. re Georcr. Did you know anything about the Government offi- clals? Mr. Nicuors. I did not; do not know one of them. Mr. Gzorcr. Never knew any of them? Mr. Nicnors. No; never met any of them. Mr. Grorcr. Anybody in your company know any of them? Mr. Nicuots. I do not know that they did; might have. Mr. Gzorce. Did you ever have any dealings—buying any pine or anything else—on that land? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. You knew nothing about these people? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, ‘ 2245 Mr. Nicuoxs. I want to rectify that. We bought some of those inherited tracts they advertised. Mr. Georce. And you had some business relations with these Gov- ernment officials? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; we put in some bids, but I never saw any of them or talked with them. Mr. Gzorce. How did you find those officials when you dealt with them—reasonable men? Mr. Nicnoxs. I never saw any of them. Mr. Grorce. When you had your business relations—you said you had business relations preceding these relations? Mr. Nicnots. I never met any of the officials; only the Indian agent. “iin Gerorcr. What kind of a man did you find him—a fair man? Mr. Nicnors. A fair man. Mr. Gerorcr. Did you find him a good business man? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcz. An honorable man in his private relations? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. He would have to do with this advertising, no doubt, would he not? Mr. Nicuots. I presume so; yes, sir. Mr. Georce. But you thought that this advertising was either cor- rupt or foolish ? Mr. Nicuots. Something wrong with it; that is the way it looked to us. : Mr. Grorcz. The only man you had any business relations with was the agent, Mr. Michelet ? Mr. Nicwors. Yes, sir. We had submitted bids to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs; had them accepted and had them rejected. Mr. Georcr. Anything foolish or crooked about the commissioner ? Mr. Nicuots. I never met him; no. Mr. Georcr. Did you have any reasons to think he was either foolish or crooked ? Mr. Nicwors. I had not any reasons whatever to think anybody was either foolish or crooked, but I knew according to the way that bid was put in it looked very peculiar, the way that was advertised. -Mr. Gxorcr. Did you have any relations with anybody in the Indian Office at any time up to the time that advertisement appeared ? Mr. Nicnots. Never; never up to this time, any more than corre- spondence. Mr. Grorce. Either directly or indirectly ? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I had corresponded with them. I had made bids on inherited lands to the Commissisoner of Indian Affairs, and also made bids for pine they had advertised for sale, and inclosed checks to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. ; Mr. Gzorcr. Were there any crooked parts on that transaction? Mr. Nicos. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Nothing crooked? Mr. Nicnoxs. No, sir. Mr. Georcs. Nothing foolish? : Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; they advertised the lands to the highest bidder; advertised the sale of lands to the highest bidder. 2246 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grorer. So you say, from the commissisoner in Washington down to the least official on the White Earth Reservation, whatever business transactions you had they were neither foolish nor crooked. Mr. Nicuoxs. No, sir. ; Mr. Gxorcr. But when you saw these figures you certainly leaped to the conclusion that theses figures indicated that some officials there were foolish or crooked ? : Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, I made up my mind they did not know what they were doing; they could not have or they would not have adver- tised a bid in that way. ; ; Mr. Grorce. Who did you make up your mind did not know any- thing about it? Mr. Nicuors. That I supposed was done through the department. Mr. Gerorce. Through Washington ? Mr. Nicnots. Either through their cruisers or examiners, who reported it, or else the department officials who handled it. Mr. Grorcr. You thought the crookedness or foolishness existed in Washington ? Mr. Nrcuots. I thought they did not know what they were doing. Mr. Grorcr. What about Mr. Michelet on the spot? Did you regard him as a highly reputable man? Mr. Nicuots. I did. Mr. Grorcr. What did you think about him, then, after this thing had gone through with his knowledge? Mr. Nicuots. The same as I did about the rest. Mr. Grorcr. That he was either foolish or crooked ? Mr. Nicuots. If he had anything to do with it. Mr. Grorcr. He had to do with it? Mr. Nicuots. I do not know. Mr. Grorcz. It was on his reservation; it was his business to protect the Indians? Mr. Nicuors. As I understood it, the Department of the Interior told him how to advertise the bids and to sell it. Mr. Grorce. Did you have any information from him about that? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Grorcz. Did you get it directly or indirectly that he had no responsibility for that advertisement ? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir; I did not get it at all. Mr. Georcz. You did not get that impression in any way? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorce. But you thought somebody was fooolish? Mr. Nicuots. It looks like it. Mr. Georcs. Or crooked. ~ Mr. Nicuots. I said it looked like somebody was foolish or crooked—looked like a foolish or crooked bid. Mr. Georcr. Well, a crooked bid means consciousness on some- body’s part. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. A crooked bid means somebody as being conscious about the matter. Mr. Nicwots. Yes. Mr. Grorcr. Crooked means crooked intention; foolishness comes through ignorance. Mr. Nicuors. It might have come through ignorance. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Q947 Mr. Georce. This committee is very much interested, and we should like to have any suspicions or conclusions you had about that business first or last. Mr. Nicuors. I did not have any suspicions about any particular person. I knew that the Government had that timber looked over and advertised it in that way, and any reasonable man will say it was the most peculiarly advertised sale that ever occcured in Min- nesota. Mr. Grorce. You were willing to go into a crooked sale in order to cheat the Indians; a wrong presentation. You were willing to make a bid for your company and take advantage of the thing. You were willing to go into trickery to make a false bid for your own company and to have a false bid put up for another company. Mr. Nicuots. We had no knowledge of anything about how that sale was promulgated or anything about it, but we did go in on a bid and bid all that the pine timber was worth, and more than the other stuff was worth. Mr. Georce. You thought it was foolish or crooked and you were going to meet fire with fire? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; we thought we had just as much right—— eit Georce (interposing). To make a crooked sort of bid your- self ? Mr. Nicuots. Well, we did not. consider it crooked. Mr. Gzorcr. You did not consider it crooked? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir. Mr. Grorcr. It was crookedness on the part of the department, but not on the part of your company. Mr. Nicuots. I tell you now, as I said before, we bid all that we Inew that that timber was worth. Mr. Georce. That has nothing to do with the question, what the timber was worth. You said there were foolish or crooked state- ments about the amount of timber. : Mr. Nicuots. I said it looked like it. I did not say there was. T said it looked as though it was either crooked or foolish or some- thing wrong about the bid, about the sale; I did not accuse anybody of being crooked. I said it looked like a foolish or crooked sale. Mr. Gzorce. Did it occur to you to think about the Indians, whose lands might be sold in these transactions? Here is the Herrick bid, and if the Herrick bid got the award the Indians would have got $300,000 or $400,000 more than they could have got under your bid. Mr. Nicos. Certainly I knew they would have got it, and the department had the right to award that bid with Herrick if they wanted to. Mr. Grorce. Did it ever occur to you that would have been pretty good for the Indians? Mr. Nicxots. Sure. Mr. Gzorcr. But you did not care much about that? Mr. Nicuoxs. We had nothing to do with that. Mr. Greorce. You were just buying timber ? Mr. Nicuots. Sure. ; Mr. Georcr. That.is just a mere side matter, but I just want to get your point of view of the Indian. 9248 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicwors. I say the Indian would have been benefited if they got the full amount of the Herrick bid on the lands, and it was up to the department to give it to them if the department wanted to. : Mr. Grorcr. So you put in trick bids to get the timber on the reservation, trick bids that would work against the Herrick peo- ple, but also work against the Indians? ; Mr. Nicuots. We did not know what the Herrick people were go- ing to bid; had no idea; we thought perhaps our bid on the pine would be the highest; we were conscious that it would be.. Mr. Gzorcr. You had no suspicion that improper estimates were being made public with the idea of getting—throwing other bidders off the track in any way? Mr. Nicuots. How is that? ; Mr. Grorcr. Did you ever have any suspicion of these bids? Mr. Nicuots. No. Mr. Gzorcr. Did you have anything to do with the making of the estimates ? Mr. Nrcwoxs. I did not; no, sir. Mr. Grorce. Do you know of anybody that did? Mr. Nicuots. I do not; I do not know of one that had anything to do with the making of the estimates or making up the bids. Mr. Gores. In Detroit, Minn., Mr. Edward Warren came upon the stand and he made the statement, if I recollect properly, that he went upon the reservation and made an estimate, or went with Mr. Bruce, who was making an estimate for the Government of the timber, and that at the time he represented your company. Mr. Nicuots. Mr. Warren went there? Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. What time was this? Mr. Georcr. The Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. Mr. Nicnots. Is that in the record? Mr. Gxorcr. That is in the record. Mr. Nicuors. What time was that? Mr. Burcu. I think I possibly may have misled the committee. I think that is not quite true that Warren represented that he wa- in the employ of the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. Mr. Grorcr. That is my recollection, but it may be wrong. Mr. Nicuots. I should like to make a statement, gentlemen. Mr. Burce. I will tell you how it came. He was a purtner of Fairbanks over in a store at a place called Federal Dam; I am not sure but in a store also at White Earth—a partner in a store and in some lumber jobs—and I got the impression from that and possibly misled the committee that he was in the actual employ, the same as Fairbanks and Beaulieu, of the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. I am afraid I may have misled the committee in asking my questions. The Cyarrman. In what way do you think you misled the com- mittee ? : Mr. Burcu. As to the fact of Ed Warren testifying that he was in their employ. Mr. Nicwots. I would like to ask a question; if it is agreeable? The Cuairman. For whom do you now think he said he accom- panied Bruce over the reservation ? Mr. Burcu. Bruce? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2249 The Cuarrman. He.said he accompanied Bruce; for whom did he accompany him as you now recall it? Mr. Burcu. I do not know that he stated in his testimony that he did for anybody except for Bruce. ; Mr. Gerorce. I did not understand he went over the reservation with direct authority—that is to say, he did not go out as the repre- sentative—I did not understand that was the testimony, that he was sent by the company to be the company’s representative, but I did understand, my recollection is that he said he was connected with the company at that time and that he went over the reservation with Mr. Bruce. Mr. Bruce said in his testimony here, as I recall it, that there was no secrecy about the matter, he did not know particularly who Mr. Warren represented, but that there was no secrecy about it. Mr. Burcu. The way that came about is this: Mr. Fairbanks, Ben Fairbanks, was a merchant and logger. He had as a partner this Ed Warren in both enterprises, both at White Earth and over at Cass or Leech Lake, or some of those places on ceded Chippewa lands generally. Fairbanks went into the employ of this company in picking up these lands on White Earth, whether he represented the partnership in doing that, and the salary that he received from this Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. went to the benefit of the part- nership, or whether it went to his personal benefit we do not know, that isthe nearest that Warren comes to any representation of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co., in my opinion, in this record. The Cuairman. Is there any testimony in the record that Warren was on the pay roll of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. ? Mr. Burcu. No. The CrHarrman. He was the partner of Ben Fairbanks, who was—— Mr. Burcn. Yes; apparently in their general transactions—that is, logging and merchandizing. The Cuarrman. Mr. Beaulieu testifies on page 957 of the record, of the typewritten record, Benjamin Fairbanks was to get $100 a month, John Lesey $100 a month, my brother R. G. $75, and I re- ceived $100, but in addition to that we were to be given a certain commission—that is, Fairbanks and myself were given a certain commission, which I believe amounted to 73 per cent. Mr. Nicuots. That was upon the amount of the cases that were before the court at Fergus Falls. The Cuarrman. That was on the purchase price of such lands as you obtained through their action? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. . The Cuarrman. Mr. Powell, did you wish to ask Mr. Nichols any questions ? Mr. Burcu. I wanted to ask a question or two more. T am sorry, but it is a matter that was inadvertently overlooked. The Carman. You should ask them before Mr. Powell asks, I suppose? ee : Mr. Burcu. When you purchased this timber from the Indians, did you purchase all the timber, hardwood and pine alike? Me. Nicuots. No, sir; we purchased very little hardwood. Mr. Burcu. You generally took timber deeds? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. 73822°——H. Rep. 1336, 62-8, vol 247 2250 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Then the Indians retained the hardwood, did they ? Mr. Nicuots. Usually; yes, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. What has become of it, generally speaking? . Mr. Nicuots. I guess it is standing if they have not sold it; I could not say, Judge. ; Mr. Burcu. What proportion of the whole acreage did you buy— the land? Mr. Nicuots. Probably one-fourth. Mr. Burcu. Then on three-fourths of this the hardwood was left and you did not purchase it? ; Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; a great deal did not have any hardwood on it. Mr. Burcu. Did you estimate on paying for anything more than the pine on those parcels where you did buy the land? You made that offer based on the amount of pine merely ? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Mr. Powell, there are a few questions I would like to ask, and probably you would like I should ask them before you question Mr. Nichols. Mr. Powstt. If you please. The Cuarrman. As to the per cent of commission paid, now that you have heard Mr. Beaulieu’s testimony that it was 74 per cent, do you stand by your recollection that it was 5 per cent or less? Mr. Nicuors. I am positive that it was not more than 5; as I say, it was 7, that is what gave him the idea; I do not suppose he ever kept any track of it. The Cxairman. I do not care any more than just your recollection. Before you bought, or bid on this timber rather, in the sealed bids, you had it cruised, you say? Mr. Nicuozs. Yes, sir; we had it looked over. The Cuatrman. You had three crews of cruisers go over it for about 90 days? Mr. Nicwots. Oh, no. The Cuairman. How long did you say they were doing it? Mr. Nicnors. I will tell you; when first we started our men we sup- posed we had to get over it inside of two weeks, and we got them in as quick as we could. Then the time was extended twice after that, but we were through before the last extension. We did not suppose we would have any more extension. The Cuairman. How much time did your crews of cruisers spend in cruising? Mr. Nicnors. I think 20 to 80 days. F sa CuatrmMan. That would be equivalent to one crew for 60 to 90 ays? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. From your knowledge of timber cruising, was that sufficient to make a pretty accurate estimate of the timber on that land? Mr. Nicuots. In a general way; not an accurate estimate, but a good general estimate. The Cuairman. So you felt you had a sufficiently accurate estimate on which to base a conservative, safe bid ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; on that kind of a deal. The Cuatrman. Did you have it cruised more than once? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2251 Mr. Nicuots. Before the bid ? The Cuarrman. Before the bill was filed. Mr. Nicwots. No; just the once. The Carman. Have you any present recollection of the amount a ee pine that was actually gotten off the land covered in these ids ? Mr. Nicuoxrs. That have been taken off? The Cuamrman. That has been taken off. Mr. Nicuots. No; I have not. The Cuamman. The estimate made by the Government cruisers was 90,000,000 feet of white pine? Mr. Nicuors. Yes. The Cuarrman. That was very, very much below the correct amount, was it not? Mr. Nicnots. That was considerably below; yes, sir. The Cuatrman. How much would you say it was? Mr. Nicnors. Of white pine? Well, now, I would guess that there were about 250,000,000 feet of pine timber altogether on that reserva- tion; and 40 per cent of 250,000,000 would be 80,000,000 feet, not far off, probably one hundred and fifteen or twenty million feet of white ine. ? The Cuarrman. 130,000,000 feet ? Mr. Nicnots. One hundred and fifteen or twenty, I should say that there was on that whole reservation, somewhere along there; there might have been that much. The Caarrman. That is, on the ground covered by the sealed bids? Mr. Nicuors. Yes. The Coarrman. The Norway pine was estimated at 80,000,000 feet ; what, with your present knowledge, do you say was the amount of Norway pine actually on it? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, I think there was one hundred and thirty or forty million feet of Norway pine. The Cuatrman. Do you feel that those estimates you are giving on white and Norway pine are reasonably correct? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir. The Cuaitrman. The jack pine was not very important, was it? Mr. Nicuozs. No, sir. The Cuarrman. It is estimated at 20,000,000 feet by the Govern- ment cruisers. Was that about right, or above or below? Mr. Nicuoxs. That was away above; there was not half of that there. The Cuairman. Then it was one of the species of timbers on which the trick bidding could be made. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. 2h : : The Cuarrman. That is, they could bid high on the jack pine? Mr. Nicwotzs. Yes, sir. 3 The Cuarrman. With safety. The oak was estimated at 35,000,000 feet. How much oak was actually cut off this land? Mr. Nicrots. It is not al] cut, Judge, you know. You mean, how much was there on it? : . The Cuareman. I mean, how much was the bidder bound by his bid to pay for? . Mr. Nicuots. I should suppose probably fifteen or twenty mil- lion; twenty million, maybe. 2952 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The’ Cuarrman. The elm was estimated by the Government cruiser at 20,000,000 feet; how much do you say, with your present light, the bidder would be bound to take? Mr. Nicwors. We could not find any. The Crairman. So that it would have been quite safe to bid $100,000 on the elm? ; Mr. Nicwors. Any amount; yes, sir. The Cuairman. Or a thousand thousand, for that matter? Mr. Nicuotrs. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. The basswood was estimated by the Government estimators or cruisers at 15,000,000 feet. How much did the event prove there was of it? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say. I had an idea there was probably three or four million feet maybe; that, I think, would be the limit for basswood—three to five million feet. The Cuatrman. So that it would be quite safe to bid away up on it? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Maple was estimated at 10,000,000 feet. How much of that was there? Mr. Nicuots. Well, very little that was any good. The Cuarrman. At that time had the maple trees been tapped? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; they had. The Cuairman. Those of them that had been tapped the way the Indians had tapped them were worthless for lumber, were they not? Mr. Nicwors. Practically so. The Cuarrman. Under any reasonable contract you would not have been compelled to pay for them or take them? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not very many of them. The Cuairman. By the way, is it practicable to tap them from time to time in such a way as not to injure the lumber? Mr. Nicuwors. I think not; not that I know of. The Cuairman. But the way the Indians tap them is especially bad for the body of the tree and the lumber? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. The ash was estimated at 5,000,000 feet. Was there any ash there? Mr. Nicyors. We could not find any. The Cuatrman. The Nichols-Chisolm bid on white pine was $9.06? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. The other bids submitted by them under the name of the Lyman-Erwin Co. was $8.50? Mr. Nicuots. For white pine? The Cuarrman. For the same grade of pine—white pine? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. : The Cuairman. Of course, you knew that the Lyman-Erwin Lum- ber Co. would not be likely to get that if the white pine was to be the controlling species? Mr. Nicnots. If the white pine was to be the controlling species; No, Sir. The Cuairman. The Norway pine, the Nichols-Chisolm Co. bid was $8.60 and the Lyman-Erwin $7.50? Mr. Nicuozs. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2253 The Cuatrman. That made a difference of 45 cents a thousand feet on each of those? Mr. Nicwozs. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. And the Nichols-Chisolm Co. being the highest bidder in both cases; but when you come to the cheaper grades the Nichols-Chisholm bid $8 for oak and the Lyman-Erwin $10? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Now, Mr. Nichols, if $9.06 was then a high bid for white pine, what would you say oak was fairly worth on the stump at that time? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I should think $6, probably somewhere along there—$5 or $6 for good oak. The Cuarmeman. Would oak approach in price that near to white pine on the stump? Mr. Nicnois. Good white oak, I should judge, would—$5 to $6. The Carman. Can you say whether this was good white oak? Mr. Nicnots. No; there was some fairly good white oak there; yes, sir. The Cuairman. Good white oak is not usual that far north, is it? Mr. Nicuots. No; not in any great quantities. The Cuarrman. The elm appears, according to the Nichols-Chis- olm Lumber Co. bid, to have been worth $15 and the Lyman-Erwin people thought it was worth $16? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. The Cuarrman. What do you think it was in fact worth? Mr. Nicuors. Oh, very little. The Cuairman. $2? a Mr. Nicuots. Yes; two or three dollars, probably. ane CuairMsn. It would have to be transported by rail to the s? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. That would detract considerably from its value on the stump, would it not? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. The Cuarrman. The pine coould be floated to the mills? Mr. Nicuots, Yes, sir. The Cuamman. Causing very slight expense for transportation, as compared with the other. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Basswood comes next. Basswood was $10 by the Nichols-Chisolm Co., and $15 per thousand by the Lyman-Erwin people. There was not very much basswood there, was there? Mr. Nicnors. Very litile. The Guarrman. Was there any merchantable basswood ? Mr. Nicuors. Yes; there was some merchantable basswood. The Cuairman. There was hardly any appreciable quantity, was there? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I suppose three millions, as I said before; two to five millions. : The Cuamman. What do you think it was fairly worth on the stump, so as to leave a margin for handling? Mr. Nicuois. Good basswood is worth $5. ‘The Cuarrman. Is it more valuable than maple? 2254 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Nicuors. Not good maple, I presume; but basswood can be manufactured in conection with pine, you know, in the same mills. The Cuamrman. The maple was valued by the Nichols-Chisolm Co. at $15, and by the Lyman-Erwin people at $20 per thousand. Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. What.do you think it was fairly worth at that time and place on the stump? Mr. Nicuots. ‘Well, not more than $5. The Cuarrman. Would $5 be a safe bid for it? Mr. Nicuoxs. I think so. ° The Cuairman. $5 was the Herrick bid? Mr. Nicwors. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman, That was a reasonable bid, was it not? Mr. Nicuors. I think that is about what it is worth. The Cuarrman. And the ash you bid $20 for, whereas the Lyman- Erwin Co.’s bid was $25? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. The Cuarrman. What would the ash be fairly worth? Mr. Nicuors. Probably $4 or $5. The Cuarrman. $5 was the Herrick bid? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. That was not unreasonable? Mr. Nicuots. No. The Cuarrman. That would not be a trick bid? ‘Mr. Nicwots. No, sir; that is about what it is worth. The Cxairman. Now, comparing the Nichols-Chisolm with the Herrick bid. On white pine, you bid $9.06, and Herrick bid $11? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. That was $2 more, lacking the 6 cents? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. On Norway pine you bid $8.06, and Herrick bid $10, and on jack pine you bid $6, and he bid $5—$5 would be a fair bid, would it not ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. It would be a businesslike bid? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Your bid was a little too high? Mr. Nicuots. What did we bid? The Cuatrman. He bid $5 and you bid $6 for the jack pine. Mr. Nicuors. Well, either one was near enough. The Carman. Or for oak, he and you agreed in bidding $8. That was, I think you said, a reasonable bid ? Mr. Nicwors. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Could you get out on $8, when you counted the cost of transporting it overland ? Mr. Nicuots. That is a good, big price for it. a Cuairman. There would be no profit in it at that price, would there? Mr. Nicuots. Very little. ; ite Cuairman. How was the oak as to the estimate, 35,000,000 eet ? : Mr. Nicwots. I think that estimate is too high. The Cuarrman. By how much? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2255 ae Nicuors. By 15,000,000 feet, probably—somewhere along here. The Cuarrman. On the elm your bid was $15 and Herrick’s bid was $4 per thousand feet. His was a reasonable bid. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. In good faith? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. The Caarrman. Could he get out on it? 7oe Nicuors. I presume so. That is a good price, though, I think. The Cuarrman. But he would get much profit out of it at that price. Mr. Nicuors. No; I think not. We do not manufacture elm and I do not know much about it. The Carman. Your bid on maple is $15, and his $5. Yours is a trick bid and his a bona fide bid, is it not? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir; we knew there was not any maple there to speak of. The Cuarrman. Yours on ash is $20 and his $5. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Crarirman. There again his is a reasonable and your is an unreasonable one. Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The Caarrman. And, of course, the Lyman-Erwin bid, submitted by you, in every case had less of reason and more of trick in it than your own company’s bid ? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Now, the table prepared by way of report gives footings as the result, the sum total of each bid. It gives Winton’s bid on the whole estimate by the Government cruisers at $2,081,250. That, of course, is entirely misleading, is it not, because the estimate on which it is based is misleading. Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. The Nichols-Chisholm bid aggregates $2,560,200. That is also entirely misleading, because of the high bids on false estimates. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The CuHarrman. The Herrick bid aggregates $2,385,000, and you admit that his bids on the jack pine and hardwood were all reason- able bids? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. And in your judgment he was a little bit high on the white pine and the Norway pine? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. : The Cuatrman. The two best grades of lumber on the reservation ? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. . The Cuarrman. So that his aggregate would be a fair, honest ag- gregate, and advantageous to the Indians? . Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir; advantageous to the Indians. The Cuarmman. It would be for him to say whether he could get out on it or not? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir; that is it, exactly. ; The Cuamman. Taking, then, his aggregate of $2,385,000 as a fair bid, it would not be impossible, would it, to figure out on the over- 2256 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. valuation of the hardwood and the undervaluation of the pine, how much of trick there was in the other bids? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir. The Cuairman. The Lyman-Erwin Co.’s bid was $2,695,000, and there were some individual bids running just a little over a million each, which I do not care to refer to or bother with. Now, how much more money, if any, is coming to the Indians from the sale of this timber land or timber? Mr. Nicuors. From the Nichols-Chisholm Co.? The Cuarrman. Well, yes. Mr. Nicuots. Do you mean from the timber that is left standing? The Cuarrman. Yes; from all of this timber that was supposed to be estimated in this bidding. Mr. Nicnoxs. Well, as near as I can tell now, I should judge that there is probably 80,000,000 feet on the reservation yet. The Cuatrman. That will yield them how much money in all? Mr. Nicuots. It depends on what it is sold for, Judge. The Cuarrman. Well, upon the basis of prices at that time, could you give any estimate as to the aggregate of what they have already received, and what they would receive for the rest of this timber? Mr. Nicuors. I would have to do a little figuring. I would say somewhere between seventy and eighty million feet left. The Cuarrman. In money, however. Now, you have already paid them about a million dollars? Mr. Nicuors. A million and a quarter. The Cuarrman. Did they get any from other sources? Mr. Nicuots. Oh, yes; there are other parties there. The CuHatrman. Have you any idea how much they have paid them ? Mr. Nicuots. I have not any idea. The Cuatrman. Here is the point I want to get to. According to your own testimony if, in the aggregate, they received less than $2,885,000 they will lose the amount which they receive less than that—that is, the difference between what they will receive and the aggregate of the Herrick bid, $2,385,000, will be a loss to them because the Herrick bid was not accepted and acted upon. Now, can you figure that they will receive even as much as $2,000,000? In other words, would not the loss they will sustain because of the failure to accept the Herrick bid and act on it be more than or quite double $300,000? Mr. Nrcnors. Perhaps. I understand it, Judge, that they would pay whoever cut that timber—would pay for what they took, what they got off of it—under the Herrick bids, or if you claim it under that sale that you were not buying any particular amount. That is the way you come back on our bids. We were not paying any particular amount, but just what we got of the certain kinds. Now, if there was not enough to amount to $2,385,000 they would not get it; if there was more they would get that, but to answer your question I will say that—now, the amount of money that we have paid for the timber in there, and the amount that I presume is left there, would amount to about $1,900,000 at the price we paid for it. Now, what the Park Rapids Lumber Co. and the Wild Rice Lumber Co. have paid is something that I know nothing about. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2257 The CHairMan. Then when you would add the 90,000,000 feet of white pine, which was estimated at about 30,000,000 or 40,000,000 feet, additional, at $11 a thousand, that would, of course, increase this Herrick bid enormously ? Mr. Nicuors. Yes. The Cuarrman. And when you would add the 80,000,000 feet of Norway, estimated about 70,000,000 feet more, I think you said. Mr. Nicuoxs (interposing). Well, I think there is about one hun- dred and thirty or forty million feet of Norway—that is, to the best of my knowledge. — The Cuarrman. Say, 60,000,000 feet more at $10 a thousand; that would increase their estimate a great deal? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The CuarrMan. 60,06v,000 feet, at $10 a thousand, and 40,000,000 or so, at $11 a thousand, would run up into a large sum, would it not ? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. The CHairman. It would be practicable, would it not, when all the timber is removed and the exact amount which was on it was known, and the prices at which it sold are known, it would be quite feasible to figure out with absolute accuracy how much the Indians lost because of the failure to accept the Herrick bid? Mr. Nicuots. Yes; yes, sir. ; The Cuarrman. But it would be half a million dollars at least, would it not? Mr. Nicuots. I should judge so; yes, sir. The Caoarrman. And probably more rather than less that amount? Mr. Nicuors. Well, that might be. The Cuarrman. Well, now, even though you did not take any part in upsetting the Herrick bid, you say you were interested in it and were glad it was done? Mr. Nicuots. Well, I can not say that we were sorry at all. If we did not get the timber, why, of course, we would rather see the other fellow not get it than for us not to get it. We are selfish like everybody else. The Cuarrman. I assume that to be true and I am not blaming you, I am simply asking for an answer that I think everybody would attribute to you whether you got it or not. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; certainly. The Cuarrman. There was, of course, big profit in the handling of it as you finally bought it? Mr. Nicuots. I would like to show you, Judge, before you get through here just exactly what the profits are, and if you are fair men—I am under oath; I will try to tell the truth; if you can catch me anywhere, why, you may put it to me as hard as you are a mind to—I would like to show you you have gone into everything now that is detrimental to the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co., and, as I said before, the Nichols-Chisolm was an honest bid so far as the pine was concerned, and we thought perhaps we would be the highest, but we bid a great deal more than the other stuff was worth knowing it was not there, thinking if the other fellows bid was not as high as ours—— . Mr. Grorce (interposing). On the pine? ; Mr. Nicwots. On the pine, and no higher than our bid would take it. 2258 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. I do not see clearly your purpose in borrowing the name of the Lyman-Erwin Co. for the purpose of making this bid, unless it was on the theory that the absurdly high bids which you made for the timber which was not there would deceive; that the trick in it would not be discovered, and on that theory you might get it, because I assume that if the Lyman-Erwin Co.’s bid was accepted it was the Nichols-Chisolm Co. that would get the benefit of it? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. That was an affair entirely of Mr. Shev- lin’s. Of course, you can realize right there that if the Lyman-Erwin Co.’s bid had been accepted it would have been better for them than our own. The Cuarrman. Much better? Mr. Nicuotrs. Yes, sir; we thought we would bid—the Nichols- Chisolm Co.—would bid every cent we could afford to, and if it was decided on the pine, the way the bids were construed, we would get it, but if they took into consideration the way they advertised it, then the Lyman-Irwin Co. would get it. The Cuarrman. It was in the nature of throwing your cheap bait first, and if you caught the fish with that, then you would save your better bait for a later time? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. All of that is predicated on the assumption you could control the Lyman-Irwin Co. bid, but I do not. think you have indi- ‘cated anything which would show you could control that company. The Cuarrman. He has stated specifically he could, and I suppose. it is hardly necessary for him to analyze it. I assume he knows. Mr. Nicwots. There is no question we had the consent of the Lyman-Irwin Co. before they put that bid in. , The CuatrmMan. Now, with reference to the Government estimates, Mr. Nichols, did you have no knowledge of the nature of them until] ‘you saw them published ? Mr. Nicwors. Not the least in the world, Judge; not the least inti- mation. The Cuairman. Have you now some explanation to make as to the ‘character of those estimates, showing so clearly, as you have stated, that those who made them were either fools or crooks, to use your ‘own phrase. Mr. Nicuots. I do not know that I ever saw the estimates any more than they were advertised in the bids. That is the only oppor- tunity I ever had to see them, that I know of, showing the amount in the aggregate. The CuHairman. Would it be possible for men who knew nothing ‘of timber cruising or who knew little of it to make such glaring mistakes? Mr. Nicuots. Would it be possible? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. Well, it would be possible, but they would not be able to distinguish one tree from another, because if there were not any elm, if they could not find any, they could not claim there was ‘elm there. The Cuarrman. That is what I wanted to ask you. How could anyone who knew an elm tree say that there were 20,000,000 feet of elm where there was none, or substantially none? Mr. Nicuots. That was a mystery. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2259 The CHAIRMAN. And of all the trees in the forest the elm is the easiest distinguished from the others? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; fully as easy. The Cuairman. Well, it is very easy. Mr. Nicuots. Very easy. The Cuarrman. Its bark is peculiar, its trunk is also peculiar, and its limbs are peculiar. j _ Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; any man that has been in the forest and pretends to be an estimator in any way at all could not be fooled so badly on elm and ash and such stuff as that. The Cuamman. Ash is very easily distinguished from other woods, and how could any man, who had even a farmer’s knowledge of trees, say there were 5,000,000 feet of ash, where there was not any ash? Mr. Nicwots. I do not know how they could. The Cuairman. Haven’t you any explanation to offer for that? Mr. Nicnoxs. No. The Cuairman. Can you not even presume as to how it might mappen 2 r. Nicnoxs. I have not the least idea in the world how it hap- pened. They just guessed there was that much there. The Cuamrman. Will you express an opinion as to whether it is more likely which they were, which class you will put them in? Mr. Nicwoxs. It is pretty hard to say. I do not know the men who estimated it. I do not know the people, do not know that I ever met any of them, and I do not know how they placed it. Now, if I could see the estimates and see what part of the reservation they put it on, I might know; if they put it among the pine-they certainly knew it was not there; now, if they thought there was elm along the rivers and guessed there might be elm there, they might have made a gross mistake of that kind. The Cuarrman. There are 270,000,000 feet in the aggregate. Would that be pretty nearly the aggregate amount of lumber? Mr. Nicvors. Timber on the reservation ? The Cuarrman. Yes; of all species. Mr. Nicuots. Pine timber? The Cuarrman. Of every kind now. That is the aggregate of all their estimates. Mr. Nicuors. I should say that was very close; yes, sir. The Carman. How are those cruisers chosen or appointed or employed by the Government, do you know? Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; I have no idea. The Cuatrsan. Whose duty is it, do you know? Mr. Nicxots. I never had anything todo with it, and I know noth- ing about it. The Cuarrman. Pardon a digression for a moment. Mr. Leupp, whose duty is it to choose those timber cruisers? Be on tile Mr. Lxvuer. I think the superintendent of logging ordinarily, in this case Mr. Sam Davis made the estimate. Mr. Davis I do not sup- pose knew two trees from each other. The Cuamman. Who put Mr. Davis on that work? Mr. Lever. Maj. Larrabee, I presume. — The Cuarrman. The assistant commissioner ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. 2260 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Farr. From the fact that my name appears in that connec- tion and in the record I wish to plead not guilty; but I can explain how it was brought about. I am inclined to think the selection of Mr. Davis was made by Mr. Larrabee, and I understand he went on the ground and selected people around the agency, and I am inclined to think some Indians or mixed bloods were selected and that it was a sort of superficial, hurry-up estimate, and it was not completed at the time the timber was advertised; the estimate was finished at a later date, as made by Mr. Davis. The Cuarrman. Mr. Nichols, could you dictate into the record substantially the form of the due bill that you issued the Indians, of which you have told us? Mr. Nicuoxs. It would be pretty hard for me to tell it, Judge. It would read something like this: Due John Smith, so many dollars and so many cents, for timber purchased from him on the southeast of the southwest quarter and the southwest of the southeast quarter of 16-142-38, at so many dollars and so many cents, when he fur- nished the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. with proper title to the land—something of that nature. The Cuairman. Was the qualifying clause you speak of actually in the due bill? Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; I could not say just what that was. The Crairman. You have stated that the advertisement which you saw was very meager, have you a copy of it? Mr. Nicuots. I have not; no, sir. The Cuarrman. Where did you see it; in the ordinary column of a newspaper? - Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How much space did it occupy in the column? Mr, Nicuoxs. Well, it has been some time; I could not tell exactly, but a very small space. The Cuarrman. You are familiar with advertisements of timber sales, are you? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Did it differ materially from the ordinary form of advertisement ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. In what way? Mr. Nicuots. Well, they are usually in large headlines, stating that there would be a sale of timber on certain lands at a certain time, giving the details. The Cuarrman. And how was this one in that regard ? Mr. Nicuots. My recollection is that there were no headlines to it any more than the ordinary heading—that is my recollection—and somewhere in the middle of the column in the newspaper, setting sie the sale, within about two weeks from the time that we got the notice. The Cuarrman. Your description of it gives me the impression that if somebody wanted to comply with the letter of the law and put a notice of sale in the paper, and yet do it in such a way as not to attract attention, that they would have done it in about the way this was done? Mr. Nicuots. That is the way it looked. The Cuarrman. Is that the impression you got? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2261 Mr. NIcHoLs. That is the way it looked, and so short a notice and so much timber and so much involved. The Cuarrman. Of course, as a matter of fact, that eventually did not bear any bad results, because I suppose when the sale was postponed a better advertisement was inserted. Mr. Nicwots. Oh, sure; we had plenty of time. The Cuarrman. So, before the letting or sale of it it was very well advertised. Mr. Nicuors. I think so; very well. The Cuairman. But the first advertisement of it, in the way you speak, with only two weeks of notice, gave you the impression that that advertisement was not inserted in good faith? Mr. Nicuots. No; it looked bad. The Cuarrman. Do I state it too strongly? Mr. Nicnors. Well, I could not say not in good faith, but not in good judgment. The Cuarrman. Either want of faith or want of intelligence, then. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Whose duty was it to advertise it? Mr. Nicuors. I do not know that, Judge. The Cuairman. Whose name was signed to it? Mr. Nicuors. I could not remember that now; it has been a good while ago. The Cuarrman. Did the Weyerhaeuser concern try to buy any of the timberland on White Earth? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Who is their field man; who would represent them in that sort of business? Me Nicnors. At that sale, do you mean; or afterward, or at all times ? The Cuairman. At that time. Mr. Nicuots. Well, Mr. Weyerhaeuser was there himself at the sale. The Cuarrman. The old or the young man? Mr. Nicnors. Mr. Charles Weyerhaeuser, the younger man. The Cuarrman. What do you mean when you say he was there at that time? Mr. Nicwots. At the opening of the bids. The Cuarrman. They have no bids in here, have they? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. The Caatrman. In what name is their bid ? Mr. Farr. I think they have three bids in there. Mr. Nicnots. They had two or three bids in. The Guairman. Here is Daniel H. Moon. Mr. Nicuots. That is one. The Cuarrman. And the Mahnomen Lumber Co., is that one of them ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes. : The Cuarrman. Aud the Rock Island Lumber Manufacturing Co., is that them ? Mr. Nicuots. I think so. : : ; The Cuarrman. Is my friend Hines, of Chicago, a representative of Weyerhaeuser’s interests? : . Mr. Nicnots. He is interested with them in some of their matters. 2262 - WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. Has he been mixed up in any way with the White Earth deals? Mr. Nicnors. Not that I know of. The Cuairman. I say my friend, because he is. from my State. When you spoke of buying inherited land through Agent Michelet, how did you buy such lands through him? Mr. Nicuots. They advertised in the papers there certain inherited tracts for sale; that they would receive sealed bids, sealed proposals, to purchase inherited Indian lands on certain dates; and that any prospective buyer should submit his bid with a certified check on some national bank for 20 per cent of the amount of his bid, and if accepted, why he would be the successful bidder; if rejected, the check would be returned, and we submitted them to the agent. Mr. Burcu. That was under the general act of 1902? ‘The Cuairman. Well, he was simply performing a clerical or min- isterial duty, opening the bids, looking at them, and awarding the land to the highest bidder? Mr. Nicnois. We never were present at any of the opening of the bids that I know of. We mailed our bids in or sent them to Mr. Beaulieu, and he presented them; and in time, if we were the suc- cessful bidder, why we were notified to make a check for the balance of it and a check for the advertising fee and sign some receipts, and the deed would be sent us. Mr. Powety. There are just one or two questions I want to ask Mr. Nichols, to avoid any misapprehension. Mr. Nichols, in the course of your direct examination you stated that Mr. Fairbanks entered the employment of the company in the fall of 1907. Were you not mistaken about that? Mr. Nicuots. I guess so; I guess it was in the fall of 1906. Mr. Powe. The fall after the Clapp Act was passed ? ca Nicuots. Yes; probably in December or somewhere along there. Mr. Powsi. Mr. Chairman, I do not think there are any other questions I care to ask Mr. Nichols at this time in the way of cross- examination. There are some other matters, however. The Cuarrman. You may ask him anything. It is really not ex- amination and cross-examination here. Ask anything you wish. You are not confined to the ground already gone over. Mr. Powstu. I did not wish to take the time of the committee going into something the committee and Judge Burch did not see fit to open. The Cuairman. I do not think this work stands in the relation of examination and cross-examination at all. We do not care who brings out facts; we only want the facts. Mr. Powety. Before I take up this matter, Mr. Nichols, I want to ask you some general questions in regard to your experience with the Indians generally. When did you commence logging on the White Earth Reservation, how soon after the passage of the Clapp Act in 1906 and your purchase of timber there did you commence to cut it? Mr. Nicnots. I think in the year 1909. Mr. Power. Since that time, while you have been operating in that vicinity, or before, if such is a fact, I want to ask you the extent to which, if at all, you have employed Indian labor? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2263 Mr. Nicnots. Do you want me to state just how many we have employed ? Mr. Powety. No; I want to know generally as to the employment of Indians in your work. Mr. Nicwots. Well, in the woods and around the camp, we gener- ally have some in every camp. I could not say how many, anywhere from 3 to 10, probably, at a camp. Mr. Powe. That is during the logging season ? Mr. Nicuots. During the logging season. The Cuarrman. How long do you think you will examine Mr. Nichols? Mr. Powe. I do not think over 10 minutes, and I should like very much to finish to-night, if the committee will allow me. The Cuarrman. All right; go ahead. Mr. Powetu. Have you used them any in driving logs? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; we use them a great deal more in driving than in any other work. Mr. Powerit. Now, in your experience with those Indians in the woods and on the drive, state what your experience has been as to their ability as laborers. Mr. Nicwoxs. Well, they are good men while they work, and so far as their being good loggers and good drivers, they are as good as we can get anywhere, and the Indian is a good deal like other people— he will work when he has to, and when he does not have to he don’t care to work. : Mr. Powett. Do you attempt in any way to give the Indian a preference in regard to his employment; if Indians come do you em- ploy them ? Mr. Nicuous. We have never had an application from an Indian that we have not found a place for him, either at Frazee, on the river, or in the woods, to my knowledge, and that is my instruc- tions. We have a good many that work there all summer through the mills. Mr. Powerit. Are any of the women employed about your works in any capacity? Mr. Nicnots. Nothing more than to do the washing and mending and work like that around the camps. Mr. Powerit. What did the stumpage purchased by you on White Earth Reservation cost; the average cost of the stumpage per thou- sand feet? Mr. Nicwots. About $8.50 a thousand. Mr. Powe.u. I will ask you if you have had prepared from the records of your office a statement showing the selling price per thou- sand, the average for the entire year, commencing with the year 1901 down to and including the month of February, 1912? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; I have. an ; Mr. Powsuy. I will show you Powell Exhibit 1, and ask you if that is such a statement? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Powstx. State whether or not that correctly shows the sell- ing price received by your company for your lumber during those years manufactured from timber on the reservation : Mr. Nicuots. That shows the exact price for timber manufac- tured and sold by the Commonwealth Lumber Co. and the Nichols- 2264 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Chisolm Lumber Co. from 1901, including 1901, down to the present time up to the month of January and February, 1912, every year separate. Mr. Powett. I would like to offer that in evidence. Mr. Nicuots. I can explain a little there if you like. Mr. Powrtt. They may wish to ask in regard to that later. Have you made any computation as to the cost of logging for the years 1910 and 1911, the logging of the timber on the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir; I have got it exactly what it has cost us. Mr. Powerit. Have you made any computation of the cost of manufacturing, including the expenses and interest and collections, for the manufacturing and selling of that lumber? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Power. I will show you Powell Exhibit 2, and ask you if that shows such computation ? Mr. Nicnors. That is correct; yes, sir. Mr. Poweti. And that correctly shows the cost of your logging and cost of manufacture? Mr. Nicuous. Yes, sir. Mr. Powett. I will offer that in evidence, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. You do not state here, but, of course, it means per thousand feet. ‘ Mr. Nicuotrs. That is what it means. The Cuarrman. Just write it in at some appropriate place. Mr. Powett. Taking the statethent, Exhibit 2, for your guidance, and keeping in mind your statement that the stumpage cost you an average of $8.50 per thousand feet, I will ask you to state what, dur- ‘ing those years, the lumber has cost per thousand feet, the lumber which you sold and for which it appears you received the prices named in Exhibit 1. _ 3 Mr. Nicnous. That the lumber cost us to manufacture it? Mr. Poweti. What did the lumber cost you, taking all items into consideration ? Mr. Nicuots. Since we have cut any timber from the reservation ? Mr. Powerit. Taking the years 1910 and 1911, and those are the only two years referred to. Mr. Nicuors. Well, taking 1910 and 1911—I have got 1909-10-11 here together. Now, 1909, 1910, and 1911, by putting 1909 in it, takes it a little better; that is, it makes it a little bit more. Now, the average we got for those three years was $19.08. Mr. Powerit. What was the average cost for those three years? Mr. Nicwots. Do you mean this or. Mr. Powe. (interposing). I want the average cost, the entire cost of the lumber. = Mr. Nicuots. Complete? Mr. Powe.x. Complete in all respects, so we will know what the company made, if it made anything. Mr. Nicnots. It cost us $14.52 to produce, at the foot of our slip, and manufacture and sell and get our money, $14.52. In that we get an overrun, which is a fair way to figure, of 25 per cent, which would be one-quarter more, which would cost us practically $1.61 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2265 more per thousand, so it would make $16.13 that it would cost us to take 1,000 feet of logs from the stump in the woods, put it to our mill, manufacture it, pile it and sort it, sell it and load it on the cars, and get our money back—$16.13—and we would get out of that 1,250 feet of lumber. Mr. Powe. Now, add the stumpage cost. Mr. Nicuots. Stumpage costs $8.50—that is, $24.63 for 1,250 feet of lumber, divided by. 125, will give you the amount that we get per thousand feet of lumber; that is practically $19.70. Mr. Powe... That is the average cost per thousand feet during those years? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir; that is what it cost us. Mr. Powe. And the average selling price was—— Mr. Nicwozs. $19.08. Mr. Powe tu. Now, on the face of that, Mr. Nichols, that would show a loss, Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Powrii. Are there any other figures, in the nature of a by- product, which would add to your income from those logs? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. Mr. Powerit. What is it? Mr. Nicuots. We get some lath, and usually in large towns they get wood, but our wood is a detriment to us; it costs more than we get out of it. For every 100,000 feet of lumber manufactured we get about 22,000 laths, or 220 laths per 1,000 feet of lumber, that had cost us $1.78 to manufacture those laths and handle and sell and get our money; they net us $2:86; $1.78 from $2.86 leaves $1.08 clear profit on that lumber, which would add about 21 cents per thousand to this lumber; instead of being $19.08 it would add 21 to 22 cents more, making it practically $19.30. Mr. Powerit. Now. Mr. Nichols, we read in the newspaper reports the other day that Mr. Moorehead testified here something about the, tortuous manner in which you constructed your logging railroad and the unscrupulous way in which you had cut timber from the lands of full bloods when no one was looking. I will show you Powell Exhibit 3 and ask you to state what that represents. Mr. Nicuots. That is our railroad from Elbow Lake back through the reservation until it leaves the reservation—our original road. The balance of them just run through the timber where we cut the timber. Mr. Georce. Leaves the reservation at what point? Mr. Nicuots. Section 36-143-88. Mr. Georce. South, west, east, or north? Mr. Nicnors. The east side. Mr. Poweiy. What are the colorings—what do the colors green and red represent ? : Mr. Nicuors. The green is where we bought the timber and the other is the land and timber. Mr. Powrtx. Where you bought the land and timber? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——48 2266 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Powrit. The white portions, the uncolored portions of the map, crossed by the railroad, then, are portions of the reservation in which the company has purchased no interest ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; that is right. Mr. Powsruu. Now, what can you state, Mr. Nichols, in regard to the construction of that road and to what extent, if at all, timber has been cut from the land of full bloods or by anyone else? Mr. Nicnors. That road runs from Elbow Lake back through this timber here to timber we have east of the reservation, and 1s built exclusively where we went through any timber of any great value, with the exceptions of small poplar and brush, and the likes of that, and where it comes to the pine or goes entirely through our own land or lands, where we have bought the timber with the right to construct our railroad, with the exception of two allotments that are pretty well timbered; one of them is Margaret Reynolds, a minor, and the other is a Mrs. Porter, I think. This down below here, from where our coloring is here, there is very little pine timber runs through—kind of bushy country, small poplar, and such stuff as that—for which we paid $10 an acre for the privilege of running over it, and if we cut any pine timber we paid B10 er thousand for it and $2.50 for the brush ‘we cut out of the right of way, per cord— they called it cordwood. Mr. Powe tt. Of the portions which are marked with colors on the map, and which are crossed by your railroad, I will ask you to state whether you have investigated and ascertained whether the title of the company to the lands so crossed has been in any manner ques- tioned by the department. , Mr. Nicuoxs. I have. I have looked to it thoroughly, and I find that in no place where our road crosses the reservation or is on the reservation that there has been no question raised as to the parties being mixed bloods, no les pendens filed. Mr. Powe. We offer in evidence the map, Exhibit 3. The Cuarrman. You have made very little proof of Exhibit 3; the witness has explained it, but he has not proved it. It is a very pretty exhibit. Mr. Powet. I will ask in detail. I perhaps was trying to make more haste, and, as usual, made less speed. The CHairman. The witness, you will recall, has only explained it. There ought to be some proof of it. Mr. Powetu. I believe he stated, Mr. Chairman, that it is a map showing the location and direction, etc., of the railway, and has shown the purpose of these marks. The Cuairman. There ought to be some proof that it is at least substantially accurate. Mr. Powsr.u. I will ask Mr. Nichols whether you are personally familiar with the location of that road and its place and the lines that it covers? Mr. Nicuors. I am. Mr. Power... State then whether the course of the road and its location on the exhibit, on Exhibit 3, is substantially correct. Mr. Nicuots. It is; yes, sir. You will notice that that road is very crooked. Here is one place where we made half a mile to get ahead 80 rods, probably. Township No_./4.3_NV...... RangeNo_ 38. YK _..5 7% MerPM. al , 7 TN as 2 : 268 y ‘ ; 40. 13993\ B99S\ B997| 37. 21g! aap egy! oto aan enze as way | aeeeaeabenevnr any] Ny weer. |e a9 aR) TM ia ee Oe ‘ i T vi =e i | 4 t | 3460) , t : i : ; LS HALO : fe z 8 : [2ezs} 4050 j ' i i i e i th > \ | i = ra rp pet eee 2 ; & 8 Po tb by SLM OWNNEA3E 70} 38.40 fy Ge Q 4OSY1AO, 41.0, B\LLO.FO!| FO4Z 40, /éfp + 3 27 Oa? av 2 ‘4 057 PERS 24g S\asas |254 S908 / aN * <3 308 & 7 J ei 4/08) 4O75| 40. AS | 3 | ¥O.SO ssoole7soW aay 1% aw 4 oi 2. Le i \ Nest y 3 be 7 [PS3S) 295 os\ [ess HO28) 4ESOL 4\— aso + 5 13060. 3 ae St ee a tp mh * SD tp | | | } \ ! Sp ¥ j NY 3490, 37,29 47.80 36. eo - 3 ; sential intel “ ~ p6--- ee ees RS nati tinatia| Led 3 THE NORRIS PEVERS CD. WASMINCTON, D.C. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2267 Mr. Powzi. Explain that, please. Mr. Nicuors. The country is very rough and had we built a road straight from Elbow Lake up in there where this railroad runs, it would cost so much we could not afford to have done it. It being for our own use we made it as crooked as was necessary on account of making it as cheap as possible, and then it cost us a lot. Mr. Powett. In making that road crooked, as you say, following the contour of the ground, state whether or not it was done at any time for the purpose of carrying the road through timber of full bloods or minors. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; it was not. Mr. Powet.. Or in any case through timber in which you had no interest ? Mr. Nicuots. Not at all; no, sir; it was not; it was done for the purpose of getting it in the cheapest and the best place. Mr. Powrty. Where the road passes through sections 5, 4, and 3 of township 142-38, I will ask you to state whether there is any pine timber of any quantity on the land? Mr. Nicuots. Very little; scarcely any. Mr. Powerit. What is the character of the timber on that land ? Mr. Nicuots. Well, it is poplar and probably small spruce and balsam, principally poplar. Mr. Powsrxu. That is the land referred to in this statement ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. PoweLi Exuisir No. 1. NICHOLS-CHISOLM LUMBER Co., Frazee, Minn., March 8, 1912. Mr. J. A. NICHOLS, Frazee, Minn. Dear Sir: The following statement covers the sales averages of our lumber for the years as shown below. The last two items are fhe averages for the months of January and February: Year. Average. Year. Average. 914542: 19003 sccsssororssecnarounsoernraaiciedescmiecie-ceaearemeis $19. 25 DB DA | TODO. ssi rarciora nis win Stoic vaisinieieasnidiniata(aiw eieiwe acts 19.68 EP 225 MOL corcrcrcajasiaisi ate ciarerrnes. 18.31 15.55 || Average for 11 years...... 17.80 16.51 || Average for 1909, 1910, 191 19.08 19.74 || Average for January, 1912 19.01 21.58 |} Average for February, 1912..........-.-- 17.90 Yours, very truly,- NICHOLS-CHISOLM LUMBER Co., By H. W. Backus, Assistant Treasurer and Secretary. PoweELtLt Exurpit No. 2. Cost of logging, 1910 and 1911, per M = ee $8. 06 Cost of manufacturing, including expenses, to money in bank for 1910 and, 19171, per: M_....---=-----=seseseeeseseseccaesseeese ee seco ee s= 6. 46 Total eee sees asa eee 14. 52 2268 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. I would like to ask one or two questions, Mr. Chair- man, suggested by this examination by Mr. Powell. The Cuarrman. Do so. The exhibits will go in in the order they are marked. Congressman Steenerson desires to ask some questions. Perhaps you would prefer to wait until he asks his. Mr. Steenerson. I will wait until you get through. a Mr. Burcu. You showed a loss in the manufacture of this timber? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir. oer. Mr. Burcu. Who did you sell it to? ; Mr. Nicnots. To everybody we could sell it to. _ Mr. Burcu. You did not sell it to any special retail concern ? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir; sold it to everybody. Mr. Burcu. Or to any special concern? : Mr. Nicuors. No, sir; sold it to everybody we could sell it to. Mr. Burcu. Did any company Mr. Shevlin was interested in buy any of it? Mr. Nicuots. I think they did. Mr. Burcu. How much? Mr. Nicnots. He is not interested in very many retail yards. Mr. Burcu. Not exactly retail yards. Mr. Nicuoxs. Those are the only ones that-— Mr. Burcu (interposing). Did companies he was interested in purchase any considerable portion of this manufactured product? Mr. Nicuors. Probably they might have 10 per cent of it. Mr. Burcu. Did those companies pay the same as other parties? Mr. Nicnors. Just the same. . Mr. Burcu. Just the same as other persons purchasing ? Mr. Nicuozs. Yes, sir; just the same. Mr. Burcn. And you sold out upon order by car lot? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir; entirely so. _ Mr. Burcu. All parties were treated alike, whether Mr. Shevlin was interested or-not, in price? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; just the same. Mr. Burcu. And you say he was not interested in any considerable portion—in companies that represented a considerable portion of the amount sold? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is the main question I wishéd to ask. How much have you got left of this timber? Mr. Nicwors. I think I stated. Mr. Burcu. I did not mean timber, but lumber, manufactured ? Mr. Nicwors. In the yard now? Mr. Burcu. Yes. 4 oy Nicuots. Oh, in the neighborhood of fifteen or sixteen million eet. _ Mr. Burcu. You are still buying of these Indians and manufactur- ing at a loss? Mr. Nicwots. No; we have not bought any from any Indians for some time, I guess; I am satisfied we have not. Mr. Burcu. You are still in the market for purchase—that is, you would purchase if there was anybody had any to sell that really wanted to sell it? WHITE BARTH RESERVATION. 2269 Mr. -Nicuots. Well, there is always somebody wanting to sell to us—offering for sale.” I do not know of a week we do not get an offer. Mr. Burcu. Has your company declared any dividends since this business has been going on—manufacturing these 90,000,000 feet? Mr. Nicuous. They usually declared a dividend, with the excep- tion of this year. Mr. Burcu. How could you declare a dividend if you were doing business at a loss? Mr, Nicuots. We were not doing business at a loss. Mr. Burcu. Ob, just a loss on this particular timber? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You made money on your other purchases, etc. ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; I think this is the first year that we did not make anything to speak of. Mr. Burcu. You paid the interest on your bonds? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What rate of interest did they bear? Mr, Nicuots. Five per cent. Mr. Burcu. Did anybody connected with the company take the bonds of the company ? Mr. Nicuots. No; not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Sold to outside parties? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is-there a difference between the lumber market: now and the time of the Herrick bid, in 1905? Mr. Nicuots. According to our profits there is, or our prices, I should say, rather. Mr. Burcu. Have prices gone down? Mr. Nicuots. Gone up. Mr. Burcu. Prices have gone up? Mr. Nicuots. Gone up a little. Mr. Burcu. Has the general market on lumber gone up or down? Mr. Nicuots. Since the Herrick bid? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. The general market has gone up a little. Mr. PERE, Herrick would have lost pretty badly, then, if he had ot it? ; Mr. Nicnots. There is not any question but what he would if he had paid $10 and $11 per thousand, or anybody else. Mr. Burcu. You did not want to let them lose like that, so you bought the timber? Mr. Nicuots. Oh, no; we had nothing to do with them, the depart- ment turned down the bids; it was not us. Mr. Burcu. Well, that is all, I guess. Mr. Gzorcr. Just before this closes. For the timber that you were to take on your right of way, you were to give how much? Mr. Nicuors. They charged us $10 per thousand feet for it. Mr. Grorce. For any sort of timber? Mr. Nicuoxs. Any kind of timber that was saw logs; yes, sir. Mr. Gzorcz. It was for either of the pines or any of the hard woods—any timber that you cleared away—$10 per thousand feet ? Mr. NicHots. There was some of it we cleared away we could not scale, it was too small—poplar and small stuff like that—it lays there. 9270 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Gzorcr. I mean uniform price? Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir; $10 per thousand. Mr. Gzorcr. You lost money on that, did you not? Mr. Nicuots. Certainly; we bought it because we had to have the right of way. . The Cuarrman. How much per thousand did you lose on the av- erage, as your statement shows? Mr. Nicos. A mere trifle, there is about 21 or 22 cents—a few cents. The Cuarrman. Have you figured out what the aggregate loss was? Mr. Nicnots. No, sir; I have not. The Cuarrman. Or, in other words, the number of thousand feet you have handled ? Mr. Nicnots. I have not; no, sir. The Cuairman. Have you any idea what that aggregate loss would be? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, I have not figured it, because we have manu- factured other timber all the time along with that. The Cuatrman. In order to figure the loss per thousand, you must have considered it as an independent proposition ? Mr. Nicos. Well, I figured the lumber we had manufactured since we began cutting timber off of the White Earth Reservation. The Cuatrman. Did you lose more in the early years of your work there or in the later years? Mr. Nicuots. Well I have got the three years together—that is, the years we have taken anything off the reservation—and before that the humber was cheaper, the timber was cheaper, and everything else was cheaper. The Cuairman. Did you lose every year you have been on it? Mr. Nicuots. No. We have never lost anything in our manufac- turing, you understand. That is not my statement; we have not gone behind in our business. The Cuarrman. On White Earth? Mr. Nicnoxs. But for the price we paid for the White Earth tim- ber and what it has cost us to cut it, log it, manufacture it, and sell it, there is a small loss. The Cuarrman. Twenty-one cents, or so, on each thousand feet? Mr. Nicnuots. Yes; something like that. The Cuarrman. Well, that is what I understood, that you have handled the timber on the reservation at an average loss of 21 cents and a fraction per thousand. Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. And my question was whether that loss was con- tinuous, and extending over all the years you have been logging on the reservation, or whether it was only some of the years. Mr. Nicuors. Well, that takes all of the years, but I have figured our cost for only two years, you understand—the two last years— ee it has cost us to log, manufacture, and sell and get our money ack. The Cuarrman. You do not believe your figures, do you? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; positively. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 92°71 The Cuarrman. Do you say you have handled all the timber on the White Earth Reservation at a loss to the company—an actual loss to the company ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; there is no question about it. Those fig- ures are just as correct as they possibly can be. The Cuarrman. Well, I do not know how correct they can be, ex- cept as you tell me. Mr. Gzorcr. I do not see how you make a loss and make a profit. How do you pay your dividends? Mr. Powrtz. From other timber; we are not running timber on that alone. Mr. Nicxots. We are manufacturing a good deal of timber other than this timber. ee The CHarrman. Could you give any approximation of the aggre- gate loss on White Earth ? . eae = Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; I could not. The Cuarrman. You have no present knowledge of the number of thousand feet you have handled there? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. The Cuarrman. But you say you have handled it at a loss? Mr. Nicuors. Yes, sir. But I have not figured in this year’s costs. The Cuamman. In your figures is there anything for the vast number of logs you now have on hand ready to go to the mill? For instance, in going over the reservation we drove over Elbow Lake and we saw your railroad terminal there, and saw the engine come in with loads of logs, and we saw acres and acres, and I might nearly say miles, covered as high as they could be piled with logs waiting, of course, for the ice to thaw and for an opportunity to raft the logs to the mill. Now, does the fact that those logs are there enter in any way into this question ? Mr. Nicguors. Not at all. We can not tell anything about that until the next year; they are not taken into consideration. We have just taken the logs that we logged through the years The Cuatrman (interposing). Where does the year begin and end? Mr. Steenrrson. What years were you going to mention? Mr. Nicuots. The years 1910 and 1911. The Cuarrman. Where do you begin the year and where do you end the year? For instance, at the beginning of this year, 1912, you had mountains of logs there on Elbow Lake, and how could you tell the labor cost already in them, and how could you draw a dividing line between the cost and receipts? Mr. Nicuots. Well, we balance every year and commence anew again. When we commenced logging this year we commenced to keep an account of our logging cost. ; The Cuarrman. Is it not impossible to draw a line at the end of one year and the beginning of another and determine how much of last year’s labor goes into this year’s results? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not at all. The Cuamman. When you began in 1910 you had a great deal of stuff on hand. Now, how did you separate or segregate that from the past and make a new start that year? Mr. Nicuors. We took an inventory at the end of the year and knew what we had on hand and we would do our logging for that 2272 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, year, and one year balances the other. We have to keep a certain amount of logs on hand. And this gives us, for those two years, the amount that 1s shown here in those figures. ; The Cuarman. After many years of business in logging, and tak- ing an inventory and making estimates, would it not be quite possible for any firm like yours to make such an inventory as would show the account one way or the other, just as it chose? Mr. Nicroxs. No. The Cuarrman. If it was for the purpose of booming your bonds would you not have made a showing that would appear good and that you were making money instead of losing money ? Mr. Nicuots. I do not think we could, not from our books. The Cuairman. You had been doing business how many years before you took this inventory and began keeping those figures? Mr. Nicuots. It was kept before I went there. The Cuarrman. And you stated that these figures begin with the year 1910? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Well, you had to get back of 1910 and determine or inventory the stock on hand so as to get a starting point? Mr. Nicwoxs. Well, we had that every year; every year is separate from the other; we do it every year. We keep the cost of our log- ging. ~ The Cuamman. Have you statements showing year by year from the beginning what it cost you to do the work there, what it cost you for the material, for railroad building, for logging, for milling, and all that, and year by year what the product brought you? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Well, your statement does not give that, does it? Mr. Nicuots. The statement gives what the product brought us, but I did not go back of the years 1910 and 1911 to get the cost state- ment. The Cuarrman. And right there is where I see what is called the twilight zone. At that beginning point, it seems to me, there was an opportunity, in making your inventory and making this start, to give the thing whatever bent or direction you chose to give it. Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; it was as straightforward and honest a statement as could be possibly gotten up by anybody. Mr. O’Brren. Why were not the other four years included in that statement ? Mr. Nicuots. Because we commenced from the time we commenced manufacturing the timber taken from the reservation. Mr. O’Brien. Does this start with 19092 Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Me O’Brign. And gives what years—1909 and 1910; those two years? ; Mr. Nicwors. 1910 and 1911. We did not manufacture the logs we cut in 1909 and 1910 until 1910. : Mr. O’Brien. Your mill at Frazee is how far from the place where you cut your logs? Mr. Nicuors. By water or direct? Mr. O’Brren. Well, from where you cut your logs? Mr. Nicnors. I should say 75 or 80 miles. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2273 Mr. O’Brien. Would it decrease your expense if your mill were upon the reservation instead of 75 or 80 miles away? Mr. Nicuots. Sure it would, if we had a railroad there. Mr. O’Brien. Under the regulations, where Mr. Herrick had the highest bid, it was provided that a sawmill should be constructed upon the reservation, was it not? Mr. Nicwots. Yes, sir. Mr. O’Brien. Do you think that if Mr. Herrick had constructed a sawmill upon the reservation instead of having it 75 or 80 miles away, he could have made money upon his bid? Mr. Nicuors. And built a railroad to it? Mr. O’Brien. Well, whatever might be necessary, if a sawmill were 75 or 80 miles closer than your sawmill ? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; not if he had to build a sawmill and build a railroad he could not manufacture any cheaper than we did, be- cause we had ours built. Mr. O’Brten. Would there be any economy in not having to haul those logs or raft them 75 or 80 miles? Mr. Nicuors. There would be quite a great deal of economy. But you must remember that it costs money to build a sawmill and also costs something to build a railroad. Mr. O’Brien. Of course I understand that. Mr. Nicuots. Twenty-five or thirty miles through a rough country, Mr. Steenerson. This excessive estimate of ash, maple, basswood, elm, oak, and jack pine in the advertisement, and the estimates upon et it was based, you were aware of at the time you made these ids? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreewerson. You knew there was not that much of those varieties ? Mr. Nicnots. Yes. sir, Mr. Sreenerson. And you knew there was more of the others? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Steenrrson. Now, if these estimates had been accurate, would there have been any opportunity for any trick about the bid? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Srerenerson. If I understand you correctly, the cause of put- ting in the bids in the way you have described, putting in an ex- cessive price on some of the timber, was that the quantity had been placed at an excessive amount in this estimate? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. If it had not been for that there would have been no advantage at all? Mr. Nicuots. None at all. Mr, Sreenerson. So that was the occasion of bidding in the form which you have described as a trick? Mr. Nicnots. Yes, sir. . : Mr. Steenerson. Now, what proportion of the timber on this res- ervation had your company as compared with the other two com- panies, the Wild Rice Lumber Co. and the Park Rapids Lumber Co. ? Mr. Nicwors. Oh, I should say that we must have had 75 or 80 more million than they had; I do not know exactly. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, you had twice as much as they had? Mr. Nicnotrs. Yes, sir; just about. 2274 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Steenerson. Now, if this bid of Mr. Herrick’s involved a loss, what, if anything, was there to compel bidders, under the form of bids that you and Herrick adopted, to make good the loss? Mr. Nicos. I do not think there was anything. Mr. Srrenerson. Did you not make any deposit? Mr. Nicuots. $2,500. Mr. Srzznerson. What is your estimate of the total loss of Mr. Herrick, in case his bid had been accepted ? Mr. Nicuots. $2,500. ; Mr. Sreenerson. No; I mean if he had taken the timber. Mr. Nicuots. And cut it? Mr. Sreenerson. Yes. Mr. Nicuots. Well, he would have had a loss of $2 a thousand, at least. Mr. Sreenerson. That would amount to four or five hundred thou- sand dollars? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. And to secure that loss there was a deposit of $2,500? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenrrson. Then there was no other guaranty that you know of against that loss? | Mr. Nicuots. That is the only guaranty; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenrrson. Who was Mr. Herrick, do you know? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I met him at the sale; that is all I know. Mr. Srernerson. He was not connected with the Weyerhausers? Mr. Nicuors. Not that I know of; no, sir. He was from Wis- consin. Mr. Srzenzrson. Now, in regard to the labor employed, you did not state the total number of Indians employed by you on an average during the time you have been logging on the reservation. Mr. Nicuots. Well, I could not do that. Mr. Srernerson. You stated from 3 to 10 in each camp. Mr. Nicuots. I should judge so, Mr. Steenerson. Well, how many camps were there? Mr. Nichols. Oh, three or four camps. Mr. Sreenrrson. Is there a camp near Pine Point? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Srernerson. That is not your camp? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Srernerson. Has somebody else a camp there? Mr. Nicuots. Not that I know of; not at the present time. The Park-Rapids Lumber Co. had a camp there. Mr. Srrenerson. Do you know whether Indians are. employed in these other camps? Mr. Nicwoxs. They have been. Mr. Sreenerson. What are the wages paid? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, whatever the going wages are. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, tell us about them. Mr. Nicuots. I think from $26 to 640. Mr. STEENERSON. $26 to $40 per month ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; and board. Mr. Stzenerson. Are those the wages you have paid to the Indians? Mr. Nicuots. Those are the wages at the present time; yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2275 Mr. Sreenerson. What were the wages a year ago? Mr. Nicuoxs. I think about the same. Mr. Steenerson. And in 1909? Mr. Nicwots. Practically the same; probably a little more than that, but during the last two years from $26 to $40. Mr. Sreenerson. You stated that there was some money due to the Indian allottees from whom you had bought land ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. About how much? Mr. Nicwots. Oh, I could not say; there is not so very much, prob- ably $25,000 or $30,000, somewhere along there. Mr. Sreenerson. I understood you to say you had paid out a million and a quarter dollars, and that there was about $2,000,000 altogether. Mr. Nicnots. Well, I meant—— Mr. Srrenerson .(interposing). Or $1,800,000 altogether. Mr. Nicuots. No. I was answering the question that the judge asked me in regard to how much it would bring, and I stated the amount that had been paid out for timber, and that I thought what was left there still unsold would amount to about $1,900,000. Mr. Sreenerson. Then, there are only $30,000 of deferred pay- ments due to allottees? Mr. Nicuots. Of what we own. Mr. Sreenerson. I thought you said you paid them the money when you. got the patents? Mr. Nicwots. We did. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, are there some cases where you have not obtained the patent ? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; a great many. Mr. Sreenerson. And they have not gotten their money? Mr. Nicuors. Some of them have not, and some of them have. Mr. Sreenerson. Does not that amount to more than $30,000? Mr. Nicuots. I could not say what it amounts to. Mr. Sreenerson. Does not that amount to $200,000 or $300,000? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir; they have been paid, a great many of them. Mr. Sreenerson. Those that have no patents? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. And those whose lands are in litigation by the Government ? Mr. Nicuors. Some of them. : ; . Mr. Sremnerson. There are a great many suits pending against your company by the Government? Mr. Nicuots. I think; on what we bought ourselves and from other parties, something over 80. : Mr. Sreenerson. Eighty? And each one involves 80 acres? Mr. Nicnors. Yes, sir; I think so. ; Mr. Sreenerson. And have you paid the allottees in all those cases ? Mr. Nicuoxrs. Not all of them. . Mr. Steenerson. About what proportion? Mr. Nicuors. Well, I could not say. Mr. Sreenerson. Half of them? . Mr. Nicuors. Half of them or two-thirds of them. 2276 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Sreenerson. And that would involve over $200,000, would it not? Mr. Nicuors. Somewhere along there; I would not like to say. Mr. Sreenerson. You are waiting for the determination of the lawsuits? Mr. Nicuoxs. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. You are not paying any interest on that money to the allottees? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Of these 80 lawsuits you say, in your judgment, there are about half of them that have not been paid? Mr. Nicuots. Well, from a half to one-third. Mr. Sreenerson. And those ‘80 run in price about how much? Mr. Nicuoxs. Oh, I could not guess; that would be a guess for me. Mr. Sreenrrson. You know about what you paid for 80 acres? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, we paid all the way from $500 to $19,000. Mr. Sreznerson. Well, then, the average would be about four, five, or six thousand dollars? Mr. Nicuots. I do not think it would be that much. Well, I guess you are pretty near right. Mr. Steenerson. Yes; I thought so. The Cuairman. You understand, do you not, that the department set aside the Herrick bid not because it was too high but because it was too low? Mr. Nicuoxrs. That is what I understood; yes, sir. Mr. Srernerson. Assuming that the estimate of the quantity of the different varieties of timber was true, it was too low, was it not? Mr. Nicuoxs. Well, I could not say. My. Steenerson. I was simply asking you; I do not know how it figures out. But if there was that much of maple and oak, and all that, would not his bid be lower than yours? Mr. Nicuots. Yes, sir; it would be lower than ours, but I do not think it would be too low. Mr. Srzenrrson. But assuming that their estimate of pine, jack pine, elm, basswood, and all that, was correct, then they would have to reject the bid on the face of it? Mr. Nicwoxs. Have to reject it or accept ours. Mr. Sreenerson. But the difficulty was that they did not seem to have a knowledge of what timber was actually on the land? Mr. Nicwoxs. That is right; they did not. Mr, Sreenerson. Whether it was on purpose or not nobody can tell, I suppose? Mr. Nicuots. No, sir. Thereupon the subcommittee adjourned to meet Wednesday, March 18, 1912, at 1.30 o’clock p. m. SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, Houses or REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, March 13, 1912. The subcommittee met at 1.30 p. m., with Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) and Hon. Henry George, jr., present. Appearances: Hon. Halvor Steenerson, a Representative from the State of Minnesota; Mr. M. B. Burch, attorney for the Department of Justice, in charge of White Earth matters; Mr. E. C. O’Brien, special assistant to the Attorney General; and R. J. Powell, repre- senting the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. The Caamman. Are you ready to proceed ? Mr. Burcu. We are, Mr. Chairman. If you have finished witi Mr. Tene, he has some exhibits that he would like to have go in the record. The Caarrman. Mr. Burch, I have suggested to Mr. Leupp that as time passes he may find some other documents he would ike to have go in the record and that it is better for him to wait until some op- portune time, at the conclusion of Mr. Valentine’s evidence or some other time, and get all the matters he has omitted in at one place and one time, and he thinks that suggestion a good one. Mr. Burcu. Very well. Mr. Chairman, it appears that a spasm of jealousy has gone over my friend, Mr. Powell, and he does not like us to do all the swearing on our side and would like to come in himself, and I have suggested to him this is a very opportune time, as I thought perhaps Mr. Valentine’s testimony could be.deferred. I would be glad to have Mr. Powell’s testimony taken before he goes home. The Cuairman. Judge Burch, that makes a difficult matter easy for the chair. I have spent the morning listening to some of the brightest speeches I ever heard in my life by advocates of equal suffrage before the Judiciary Committee, and really I did dread turning from that picture to this one—dropping from that to this— but the presence of Mr. Powell, and the promise that he is going to take a part in these proceedings here makes an intermediate step which will relieve the force of the fall a good deal. Mr. Burcn. I was afraid you were going to say, Mr. Chairman, that you wanted something done by way of contrast. The Cuarrman. I would not think anything so cruel, much less say it. e Mr. Burcu. Well, I move that Mr. Powell proceed. 2277 2278 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuatrrman. The committee cheerfully accedes to the request of Mr. Powell. Mr. R. J. Powet. Mr. Chairman, the occasion of my request to be sworn in the proceedings is this: After adjournment last night and after turning over in my mind Mr. Nichols’s testimony and turning over also the various phases of the situation that developed before this committee, to which I desire to direct my attention and the attention of the committee in the summing up, if you please, it oc- curred to me there were some facts that had not yet been brought out here, and apparently I am the only one who can testify in regard to that matter at the present time, and in fairness to Mr. Nichols it seems to me that some of the testimony placed what odium there may be attached to the form of the bids submitted at the Herrick sale entirely upon him. Now, it is not entirely generosity on my part, but I feel my duty to my client makes it incumbent upon me, since I am familiar with those facts and a participant in them, to share with him whatever criticism may be attached to that transaction. Now, I desire to be sworn and make a statement in that regard. STATEMENT OF MR. R. J. POWELL. Mr. Powell was duly sworn by the chairman. The Crratrrman. State your full name. Mr. Powetu. Renson J. Powell. The Cuairman. You are a resident of Minnesota ? Mr. Powe... I am. The Cuarrman. And a lawyer by profession ? Mr. Powe. I am; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And you have been actually engaged in the prac- tice of your profession for many years? Mr. Powe. Since 1898. The CuHairman. You are, and have been, attorney, or one of the attorneys, for the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co., of Minnesota ? Mr. Powe... Since 1904. The Cuarrman. There is nothing further I have to ask just now. Mr. Burcu. Would you prefer to be interrogated now? Mr. Powe.t. I am ready, if you wish to proceed. Mr. Burcu. You were at the organization of the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co.? Mr. Powrt.. I was not, Judge. My partner, Mr. Merrill, had something to do with that. Mr. Burcu. He is deceased ? Mr. Powett. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Later you had to do with that company ? Mr. Powrtt. Since 1905, I believe, the summer of 1905, I have been in active association, or in touch with the business of that com- pany and the various other so-called Shelvin interests. Mr. Burcu. You were one of the attorneys of Thomas Shelvin, deceased ? Mr. Powe . Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And the correlated interests of Mr. Shelvin? Mr. Powe. Yes, sir. I was retained by Mr. Merrill generally in the law business of these various Shelvin companies. I should qualify that somewhat; at that time Mr. Merrill was the personal WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2279 counsel, you might say, of these companies; I was associated with Mr. Merrill, and in that way came into the business. Mr. Burcu. You succeeded to the business at his death? Mr. Powzt1. Well, later Mr. Merrill and I went into partnership and we became joint counsel for the Shelvin interests. Mr. Burcu. And you succeeded to it when he died? Mr. Powe... Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I call your attention to an episode which has occupied some of the attention of this committee under the general heading of the Herrick bid, and I desire to have you proceed in your own way, if you are able to, and I suppose you are, to give your version of that episode from the beginning throughout, so far as you chose to go. If you need any of my help I will be glad to give it. Mr. Powe. I will attempt to do so, and if I omit anything you wish to inquire into you can ask me. As I recall it now, about a week, I should say, before the sale, I was called over to the com- pany’s offices and my attention directed to the proposed sale. A copy of the regulations, as I remember it, or the proposal, as I recall now, the printed or published proposal, was shown to me. Mr. Burcn. You mean the advertisement ? Mr. Powerit. They advertised proposals for bids. It was submit- ted to me, and i was instructed from that office; I do recall whether by Mr. Shevlin himself or by some one connected with the office; it may have been by Mr. Shevlin himself; but I was instructed to go to that sale in company with Mr. Nichols and put in the bid for the Lyman-Irwin Lumber Co., so that the bid of the Lyman-Irwin Lum- ber Co. was so filed by myself under instructions from that office. The form of the bids was discussed, and the reasons for framing up these two bids in that manner were mapped out and the bids made up in the office at, I think, Minneapolis, although the figures, if I remember rightly now—the exact figures—were not definitely filled out at that time. As I recall now, those were filled in after we got to White Earth, and I went to White Earth in company with Mr. Nichols, and those bids were made and put in. After the bids were opened and the result became known I wrote a letter, I think, to the Secretary of the Interior. I don’t recall now, for 1 kept no record of it that I remember. I may have kept a copy of it, but I haven’t it now, anyhow; but I wrote that letter, and I un- derstand from Judge Burch that letter is in the files in the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and the shortness of time has not enabled me to get it and have it brought here, but I would like tc request that the letter be introduced. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Meritt, this is a letter from R. J. Powell to the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs about what date? Mr. Menrrrr. It is in that file [indicating]. Mr. Burcu. In the file dealing with the Herrick bids. Mr. Powewu. It would be dated the date of the sale, because I wrote it within an hour after the bids were opened. ; ; Mr. Merrrr. It is in that file, with everything commencing with the advertisements of the sale clear down to and including the bids and the rejection of the bids. They are all in one file. Mr. Burcu. Will you please procure it and bring it to be offered in connection with the testimony ? 2280 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Georcz. Do you have to bring the whole file? Mr. O’Brien. I assume so. Mr. Grorcr. Would you be bringing with that the whole file or just that out of the file? Mr. Merrrr. I could bring a copy of the letter or the whole file. Mr. Grorcr. It might be well to see the advertisements. Mr. Merirr. We will bring the whole file. The Crairman. Mr. Meritt, could we have it soon enough to ask the reporter to leave a space for it in this connection so it can appear in its logical continuity ? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Can we get it to-day? ; Mr. Menrirr. I will telephone for it and have it up here this afternoon. Following is the letter furnished by Mr. E. B. Meritt, of the Indian Bureau, as referred to above: Hon. Srimon MICHELET, United States Indian Agent, White Harth Agency, White Earth, Minn. Sir: The Lyman-Irwin Lumber Co., one of the bidders whose bids for timber on the White Earth Diminished Indian Reservation were submitted and opened at the office of the Indian agent at White Earth immediately following the hour of 12 o’clock noon, on Wednesday, the 15th day of November, A. D. 1905, in accordance with the notice of proposals issued by Simon Michelet, United States Indian agent, dated August 14, 1905, duly published, and adjourned from time to time until the said 15th day of November, A. D. 1905, hereby respectfully de- mands that the department determine the highest bidder for such timber upon the basis of the published estimates contained in said notice of proposals and without regard to any other estimate or estimates. Among the reasons upen which this demand is based is this, that to figure the bids upon any other basis than the estimates as contained in the notice of pro- posals for bids, published as aforesaid, will introduce an element unknown to the bidders, misleading to them and to the public, and manifestly unfair. The department should be bound by its estimates as published in determining the highest bid. if If the department thinks that any other rule than the one herein presented should be followed the Lyman-Irwin Lumber Co. respectfully requests that it be given an opportunity to be heard before the department, in order that it may more clearly present its reasons for claiming that it is the highest bidder at said sale, and may be enabled, in case of an adverse decision of the department, to take such steps as may be deemed necessary or expedient for the protection of its rights, Please forward this request to the department with your report upon this sale. Respectfully submitted. LYMAN-IRWIN LUMBER Co., By R. J. Powe, Attorney. Mr. Powet. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the correspondence, and particularly the proposal, the form of the proposal, is already in this record. It was inserted in Minneapolis. Mr. Burcu. The rules and regulations are in already in connection with the testimony of Mr. Bruce. Mr. Powerit. So I understand. I can not recall just now the form of these regulations, although I looked them over briefly here the other day. Mr. Nichols:stated yesterday that it was his impression that the proposal in the form in which it was made and the form in which it was procured, the method in which it was published, together with the other circumstances surrounding the transaction, led to the conclusion that it was either foolish or crooked, as he expressed it yesterday. In this letter that I wrote at the time I called attention WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2281 to the form of the proposal, as I recall it, and the bids, and on behalf of the Lyman-Irwin Lumber Co., as I remember now, demanded that the contracts be awarded on the basis of the published estimates, and further stated, as I recall it, that if the Secretary differed from me on that proposition I wished an opportunity to be heard in order that I might take such steps as seemed advisable to me to protect the in- terests of my client. In justice to Mr. Nichols I want to say that at that time whatever impression that he obtained or information that he formed as to that whole transaction, that opinion was definitely shared in, if not originated, by myself. The impression that I had of the transaction was that somewhere, somebody, by some method, had originated a plan there, a plan in which I suspected Mr. Herrick or the persons associated with him had either some part or some knowledge, a plan which would enable a favorite bidder to come in there and make large bids for the timber. with the secret understanding that he would not have to carry it out in the form in which it was made and was part of that scheme, as I believed it at the time this proposal and this fake—if I may use that broad term—estimate was put forth, together with the requirement that all bidders must bid on all classes of timber at once for the purpose, in the first place, of carrying the sale through without call- ing the attention of any more timbermen to it than they could help, and in the second place turning away all those who were not entirely familiar with those various classes of timber business that were in- volved there, and it was to meet that situation that these bids were framed in the manner in which they were. That is the explanation I desire to make in that connection, and I am frank to say now that nothing that has developed since that time has in any way led me to change the suspicion that I had at that time—that that proposal did not originate in good faith. Now, I do not charge—I wish to be clearly understood on that—I do not charge the Indian commis- sioner who was the commissioner at that time, or at any time, or the Indian Office—I do not charge any particular persons and do not wish to be understood so; but knowing the history of the public- land business as I do and the extraordinarily peculiar manner in which that thing came out and in which it was handled, Jed to that suspicion, and I am frank to say to this committee that when I framed that letter I framed it with my hat in the ring. I was prepared for a fight, and if there was any crookedness in there, before we got through with it I was going to find out where it was, and we. put the bid in that way in order that we might lay 2 foundation to start the fight. That was the situation ia regard to those bids. I think that is the only statement I wish to make. at, Mr. Burcu. Mr. Powell, did you examine the law under which, if any, this proposed method of selling timber must have been made? Mr. Powett. I did not so thoroughly at that time, Judge, as I have since, although I did give it some examination at that time. Mr. Burcu. What was your legal conclusion upon such examina- tion as to whether there was any authority in the department to make such sale? ‘ ; Mr. Powriy. There never was a doubt in my mind at that time or since, and there is none now, but what the whole proceeding was absolutely and utterly illegal. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——I9 2282 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. You mean by illegal, without sanction of acts of Congress ? Mr. Powsrtu. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Why? : Mr. Powett. That statute, which is the act of April 21, 1904, as I recall it—and if I am incorrect in my citation you will correct me— that statute empowered allottees to sell with the consent of the Sec- retary and under such rules and regulations as he might prescribe, and, to my mind, clearly contemplated individual transactions in open market, while this plan, if carried out, was on one side a mo- nopoly. It gave to the man, the favorite contractor, whoever got it, the absolute control, and the open market, then, so far as it was covered by the Secretary, was gone, and further than that, as applied to this particular sale, instead of advertising for sending out notices by way of publication or otherwise to the various lumber interests in Wisconsin and Minnesota or elsewhere, if they desired to do so, re- quested that they submit schedules of prices which they would be willing to pay for the various kinds and classes of timber and grades of timber, etc. The department has undertaken to advertise, as it will be observed from the record, the timber for sale which was, to my mind, entirely unauthorized by the statute, and that was the opinion I had then and have still. Mr. Burcu. Was it your opinion that this proposed method of sale took away from the allottees freedom of action and also from the Secretary of the Interior? Was that the idea? Mr. Powe. In a way. It took away from the Secretary of the Interior freedom of action, except at intervals of five years, as I remember it. As the law was framed, as I construe it, any allottee who wished to sell the pine timber might do so with the consent of the Secretary, and he could sell it upon the market as it existed at that time, and as the result developed later, the high point of the timber market in Minnesota occurred in 1907, two years later. An individual allottee at that period could have taken advantage of that high price if he saw fit, whereas under this proposed sale the price was fixed by that contract and bond and the Secretary could not. change it for five years. Then he could change it. Mr. Burcu. Under the Steenerson Act the land was already al- lotted—that is, the pine—and at the time of this proposed bid the land was already allotted ? Mr. Powett. As I recall it, it was not all allotted. The allotting | |. had commenced in April of that year, and a great deal of it was allotted. Mr. Burcu. The practice had begun and the allotment had been ordered ? Mr. Powetu. Yes; and I believe the controversy between the In- dians, among the Indians themselves, and the department had been adjusted at that time and the allotments ordered, as I recall it. Mr. Burcu. The allotment commenced on Easter Monday and this was along the following fall ? Mr. Powrtu. Yes, sir. _ Mr. Burcu. I would like to get your point—not that I indorse it—but was it your point that this lack was from the allottee’s freedom of action as to price and sale? Mr. Powe. That is the proposition I had in mind. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2283 Mr. Burcu. In other words, freedom of action such as they had under the Clapp rider of 1906? Mr. Powerit. Freedom of action such as they had under the law as it existed then. Mr. Burcu. And especially under the Clapp rider of 1906? Mr. Power... Of course. the Clapp rider developed freedom of action clear beyond anything that was contemplated by the act of 1904. But the point that I had in mind was this: That under the act of April 21, 1904, each of the allottees was given the advantage. given the benefit of freedom of action, and entitled to the price that his particular allotment was worth, having in view the character of the timber, its location as to haul, and all of these various elements that go to make up the price and value of timber, whereas under this blanket form the same price was fixed and each allottee had to stand by it regardless of where his timber was or whether it was good, bad, or indifferent, which was an advantage or disadvantage, as it hap- pened to be, which the statute never contemplated. Mr. Burcu.,You know what is called the Steenerson Act for allotting? Mr. Power. Yes; April 28, 1904. Mr. Burcu. That act really placed the timber in the hands of the Indians as allottees? , Mr. Powett. Placed the bulk of it, although there was consider- able timber allotted at that time. Mr. Burcu. Then the Clapp rider placed in their hands the oppor- tunity to sell it? Mr. Powetu. Within that class; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. This was practically at the same time—introduced practically at the same time? Mr. Powe... I did not know that until the fact was made to ap- pear by your record in this case—in this proceeding. Mr. Burcu. You did not take that into account in your expression of opinion ? Mr. Powe. No, sir; I did not know anything about it. Mr. Burcu. Was there something in the rules and regulations which permitted an entire change of prices afterwards? You made some such point to me personally this morning. I want the com- mittee to know. Mr. Powerex. As I recall the regulations, they provided that the Secretary might raise the price. Mr. Georce. Is this the act of 1904? Mr. Power. These are the rules and regulations approved and issued pursuant to the act of 1904, and those were the regulations upon which these bids were called for. ; mr Mr. Burcu. In other words, what are termed in the building trade, specifications ? : : Mr. Powrtu. Yes, sir. They provided that the Secretary might, at intervals of five years, raise the prices to be paid to the Indians; and, as I recall it, those regulations permitted him to raise the prices not only on all contracts thereafter entered into, but specifically em- powered him to raise the prices on all existing ‘contracts theretofore made with the Indians; but, however, subject to the consent of the contractor, with the further provision that if the contractor did not consent--and this is the substance of it—the Secretary was om- 2284 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. powered to cancel all contracts, declare his bond forfeited, and _re- move him from the reservation; so the provision permitting the Sec- retary to raise the price with his consent, as I construed it, meant that the Secretary had the absolute arbitrary power under those regulations to raise the prices as he saw fit, which would mean, as I pointed out, a clause there that would be absolute ruin in the hands of a Secretary who wished to ruin a concern, and at the same time the regulations contained a provision which, to my mind, meant the favorite, if such might be, contractor would have a very profitable sale. Mr. Burcu. But it did provide that this lumber must be manu- factured on the reservation ? Mr. Powrty. That is true. Mr. Burcu. And establish a mill? Mr. Powetn. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And all that? Mr. Powstu. That is true. Mr. Burcu. And the Indians do the labor? ™ Mr. Powetu. So far as they were available. The Indians were to be given the preference to be employed for the labor. Mr. Burcu. Were there any other reasons why you thought there was guile in the proposition ? Mr. Powetu. Yes; there was this reason: The regulations did not specify how long the contracts were to run, and while they did not require the payment of any money until the timber was cut, the pay- ments to be made, as I recall it, upon the basis scale. There was no requirement as to when the cutting was to take place, and—I am entirely clear on this—the regulations will speak for themselves as to the requirement of cutting the timber clean. My experience has been, there is the source of the greatest danger in transactions of that character. If they compelled them to clean every piece they bought under that transaction, that would be well; but if they did not it would mean a contractor could come in there and tie up in- definitely his contracts with the Indians, and at the same time cut the best of it, and cut as the market permitted or demanded, and for that reason it was subject to almost unlimited monopoly, as it seemed to me. That was one of the suspicious incidents in connec- tion with that transaction. Mr. Burcu. Why did not the secretary of the Indian Bureau stick for the interests of the Indians under these rules and regulations and the contract that was to be made in pursuance of them, and carefully and systematically safeguard the interests of the Indian? Would -you say, on the whole, that these rules and regulations were bad? Mr. Powe. Well, I would criticize them, unquestionably, as to their form, because there were so many things there to give rise to controversy. In this very matter I have mentioned there was no requirement as to when the cutting was to be done. Of course, I have no hesitancy in admitting that if the contractor went on there under that monopoly that was contemplated and carried it out in the spirit, perhaps, in which it might be intended, and carried it out under the full and fair superintendence on the part of the department—in other words, if an ideal condition had developed in the future, an ideal condition such as we may imagine to arise in all our affairs— WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2285 if such an ideal condition had developed, then the Indians would have benefited by that contract. Mr. Burcu. Were you suspicious with anything in connection with these rules and regulations about this five-year period relative to the possibility of change by the Secretary and change in the chief of the Indian Bureau? Mr. Poweti. Yes; I was suspicious of it, because, as I say, it put in the hands of the department an unlimited power that might be used either for the benefit of the Indian or for the destruction of the contractor, according as the exigencies of the case might present. Mr. Burcu. In that view of it were you not really taking more thought for the contractor—that is, the lumber men—than you were for the department or the Indians? 7 Mr. Power... That presents another feature, and I have no hesita- tion in admitting there that that transaction, as it developed at that point, so far as the Wisconsin lumber interests on one side and the Minnesota lumber interests, as represented by Mr. Shevlin and my- self as attorney, on the other side, were concerned, the Indian was a very small factor. This. if you please, at that time developed into a fight between the two, with the suspicions on our part that the Wisconsin men had the inside track; and I put that letter in with the purpose in my mind and framed the bids in that form, or put them in in that form after Mr. Shevlin had framed them, with the idea of laying a foundation for one of the finest fights you ever saw in your life. ‘Mr. Burcu. Then your idea was that there was a fight on between the Wisconsin lumbermen and the Minnesota lumbermen for this pine, and it did not materially interest you whether the Indians between the upper and nether millstones got ground out in the fight? Mr. Powe. At that time I will admit the idea of how the Indian came out of it was left entirely to the Indian Department. Mr. Grorcr. Was it left anywhere else at any other time? Mr. Powrty. Hardly, Mr. George. Private business is hardly in the habit of looking out for interests of that character. We might as well admit that. Mr. Gzorcr. Buying the Indians’ timber or the Indians’ land or anything that may be the Indians’ is no concern of the Indians? Mr. Powewy. I will not put it as broad as that. Mr. Grorce. There are two giant buyers, and they are engaged in a fight between themselves as to who shall get this timber? Mr. Power. Yes. teste Ya Mr. Georcr. And in that fight small consideration is given to the Indians? ae Mr. Powetx. I did not mean to say that, because the price in a competitive transaction of that character, the fair value of the prop- erty, would certainly be reached in the bid, and the Indian neces- sarily would get the benefit of that. But what I meant to say was, we were not particularly considering the Indian from a philan- thropic standpoint. Personally, that I have given a great deal of thought to, but as a business proposition at that time that was not the thought. : ; Mr. Grorce. That is what I am saying: that in the course of business the Indian was not considered. 2286 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Powrtu. No; naturally wouldn’t be. There is no use for us to attempt to— Mr. Grorcr. It was a fight between the lumber interests? Mr. Powe tx. Absolutely. Mr. Farr. I understand the Indian Bureau existed for the purpose of looking out for the interests of the Indians? Mr. Powetu. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Also Congress. Mr. Powrin. Yes. But when a matter was presented for bids where a fight was invited, and not only a fight was invited, but ab- solutely assured in the manner in which the thing was presented, we started in for the fight. Mr. Farr. And the more competition the better price the Indian would get? : Mr. Powe tt. Naturally. The Cuairwan. But that was an intent and not a motive of action. The benefit the Indian would get from competition was an incident and not a motive of action on the part of either of these interests. Mr. Powrtu. I am satisfied of that. Mr. Burcu. One thing more. You have adverted here to the ad- vertisement. We may not have a copy of that, have you—a clipping of the paper? Mr. Powexx. It seemed to me we had the paper itself at the time. Mr. Burcu. The newspaper ? Mr. Powrtz. Yes. You had it in the form in which it was adopted, pu whether you have it in the printed form in which it appeared rst—— “ The Cuairman. Can you tell us on what page of the record it occurs ? Mr. O’Brimn. It appears by letter dated August 3, addressed to the Secretary of the Interior, signed by C. F. Lafferty, acting com- missioner. The regulations follow that. , The Cuairman. In connection with whose testimony? Mr. O’Brien. In connection with the documentary evidence I think I offered. ; Mr. Burcu. What I am speaking of is the printed clipping from the newspaper. Is that the same as appears on the file there, Mr. O’Brien 4 Mr. O’Brien. Yes, sir. The acting commissioner recommended the form to the Secretary; that is in the letter. Mr. Powell, look at that and see if it is anything like you saw in the Minneapolis Tribune. Mr. Powett. It looks like it, as I remember it; something of that sort. J am sorry I had no thought of taking up this matter. If I had I would have obtained either a copy or a photograph of it as it appeared in the Minneapolis Tribune. That looks like it. The Crairman. I think it would be in order, at this time, Mr. Meritt, to open this file. Mr. Powstu. May I make a suggestion? Since my time is getting short, will you allow Judge Burch to exhaust me, with the under- standing that these exhibits may follow my testimony as the ones referred to? : _,Mr. Burcu. I will take that course, and put them in after you go, if you will trust me to do so. ; Mr. Powrt1. I will trust you to do anything. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2287 Mr. Buren. I would like to ask you about the litigation of these bids. Who took that up? Mr. Powe. The litigation ? Mr. Burcu. Yes. In other words, did your concern assist in that ? Mr. Powe. So far as I know, no. Mr. Burcu. Setting the sale aside? Mr. Powrtu. No. So far as I know, the only action we took was the action that I took when I filed that letter and asked the Secretary of the Department to advise me in case the bids were not accepted, as I requesed, so as to give me an opportunity to be heard. Mr. Burcu. Do you know of the action being taken by the mixed bloods through Senator Clapp? Mr. Powetu. No; I did not know how they had taken it. The action I saw was about a dozen speeches, I should say, more or less, which I listened to at the agency, immediately following the opening of the bids. A number of the Indians appeared there and made speeches and they were all taken down by a reporter. Mr. Burcu. It was prior to the opening of the bids. Mr. Powett. I had forgotten; I know it was on the same day. Mr. Farr. They directed their speeches at me, and I suggested they had better wait and see. Mr. Powe. I did not know who they were directed to. Mr. Farr. After the bids were opened there was no speeches or protests? “8 . Mr. Powext. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Where was Mr. Shevlin at the time these bids were opened ? Mr. Powe. That I couldn’t say, Judge Burch: I really don’t know. Mr. Burcu. Did you hear he was in Florida? Mr. Powrtx. As I remember it, he was South somewhere, either in Florida or off down somewhere here. Not when the bids were opened, but he was down in that country when the proposals were published and discovered, and then we communicated with him and the matter was taken up later, as I remember it. . Mr. Burcu. And the bids were put in about November, if I remem- ber correctly, and opened. Was it not your understanding that he got busy to have them rejected? Mr. Powrtu. I never understood so, Judge. I know that I got busy with that letter, and that I was ready to fight when I came home; that was as far as my knowledge of the matter went. Mr. Burcu. I would suggest to the Chair that if Mr. Farr would like to ask some questions he do so, as he had something to do with this matter, and perhaps it would be more desirable for him to ask some questions. 2 t The Cuamman. It will be entirely in order. The committee will be glad to have him do so. : Mr. Farr. You stated, Mr. Powell, that the only action taken, so far as you were concerned, was the writing of that letter ? Mr. Power. That is, official action that I took. Mr. Farr. Well, what was the purpose of that? Mr. Power. Of writing the letter? ; Mr. Farr. Yes; to bring about the rejection of the bids? 2288 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Poweun. No; I can not say that that was the purpose of it. The purpose, as the letter shows, was the demand that the monopoly, if we may call it that—that is, the awarding of the contract—be made upon the basis of the published estimates; and if, not, if the depart- ment saw otherwise, then I wanted to be heard. Mr. Farr. You say, to lay the foundation for a fight? Mr. Powetu. Yes, sir. Mr. Farr. Well, Shevlin was the interested party. Wouldn’t it be natural in a case of that kind for him to take‘some action along the line that you were proceeding? Mr. Powe. It might be perfectly natural. Mr. Farr. You think he did not? Mr. Power. I don’t say so; whether he did or not I don’t know. Mr. Farr. Wouldn’t you be aware of the fact? You were acting as attorney for him and receiving pay, I presume? Mr. Powruu. I was not at that time the general counsel of the company. Mr. Farr. Whom were you acting for? Mr. Powr.u. I was associated with Mr. Merrill, and Mr. Merrill was employed by the company. Mr. Farr. Then you were acting for the company? Mr. Powetu. Oh, yes. Mr. Farr. We are back at the same proposition. Mr. Powetn. Yes. But what I meant to explain in that connection was, that a great marily things might have happened from that time on that I knew nothing about. Mr. Farr. You stated, I believe, that a great deal would depend, in the event that a bid was accepted, in the manner of administration on the part of the Government, and you were doubtful for certain reasons that it was intended to proceed fairly with the work? Mr. Powruu. That was the suspicion I had at the time. Mr. Farr. You had some acquaintance, had you not, with the Gov- ernment’s work on reservations in the sale and cutting of timber? Mr. Powsrxi. Not personally. But I had just got through—that is, our firm had—with a lot of litigation there growing out of the administration of the old scrip timber law. Mr. Farr. I will ask about something more recent. You knew in the two or three years just preceding that sale that in the neighbor- hood of a billion feet of timber had been sold on reservations in Minnesota. Mr. Powe... I probably knew it at the time, but I don’t recall now independently of that fact as to the amounts; I knew sales had taken place. Mr. Farr. Did you know then, or do you know now, that Mr. Shevlin made certain purchases involving larger amounts than all the timber advertised to be sold on the ite Earth Reservation? Mr. Powstt. I probably knew it; I don’t know now. Mr. Farr. That is a fact, is it not? Mr. Powety. Well, I wouldn’t want to state that. If you say it is a fact I will take your word for it, but I don’t remember it. The business side I wouldn’t be so familiar with. . Mr. Farr. He had a monopoly on that amount of timber after he purchased it? ; Mr. Powett. In what locality ? \ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2289 Mr. Farr. In his purchases there, large purchases at Cass Lake. The Neals Lumber Co. had been offering him lumber for years. That ~ ue later during the various purchases. But passing that feature of it. Mr. Powzxy. There was quite a large amount of timber sold in 1904 under the Morris Act, and the Neals Lumber Co. purchased quite a bit of it. Mr. Farr. Of the purchases he made the amount involved would equal the amount of pine on the White Earth Reservation? Mr. Powe tu. I think so; I think you are right. Mr. Farr. Well, after a purchase of that kind he owned the timber and monopolized it? Mr. Powetu. Yes, sir. - Mr. Farr. It was a monopoly? Mr. Powe. Well, it is a monopoly if you treat the purchase and owning of property a monopoly. Mr. Farr. Now, the timber in question on the White Earth Reser- vation was owned by Indians—that is, had been allotted? Mr. Powetu. Was being allotted at the time; yes, sir. Mr. Farr. You heard the testimony of Mr. Nichols yesterday as to the amount he had paid for the timber? Mr. Powe... Yes, sir. Mr. Farr. He was not able to state what amount the Indians actually received, and I believe his testimony was to the effect that had the Herrick bid been accepted it would have been more favorable to the Indians by over half a million dollars. That is correct? Mr. Powetu. I believe he stated that. Mr. Farr. You will admit, from your experience in timber affairs, that to realize the full stumpage value for timber it is necessary to sell together—that is, vou can not sell to different parties, each indi- vidual 80 or 40 or so on, and realize as much as you would if they were grouped together and sold to some common purchaser ? Mr. Powe.u. That is absolutely correct. Of course, if there is one concern, or two big concerns in the neighborhood, that are operating there that can take it over. Mr. Farr. Then, the Government, the guardian of the Indian, would be really in duty bound to figure out some method or plan by which the Indians would realize the highest market price possible, would they not? Mr. Powe... They should; yes. ; oe Mr. Farr. Well, that is about what they did in this case. Mr. Powetu. Well, that is what perhaps might be said from the surface, Mr. Farr, but whether that was what was done, or intended to be done, is a doubtful question. i. Mr. Farr. About the only thing we had in opposition to that was the suspicions of you and Mr. Nichols. We are operating under that plan in Wisconsin. It is well known—it is not a matter of expe- rience—but it was something that every bidder in Minnesota could become thoroughly acquainted with. Mr. Powety. Yes; I understand so. ; The Carman. Perhaps Mr. Leupp would like to ask some ques- tions. Mr. Lever. I have no questions to ask, Mr. Chairman, as it is a matter with which I am not familiar. 2290 WHITE MARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Farr. So far as the plan was concerned, I supposed that was all in the record. I, perhaps as much as any one, urged the adoption of that plan. I had had considerable experience with results in Wisconsin, and already the evidence now shows that under that plan you would have received a higher stumpage price, and in connection with that the Indians participate in the labor, in logging the timber and manufacture, which is an item of approximately $2.50 per 1,000. Having a mill and mills located on the reservation, any operator can afford to take the timber clean—that is, he can pick up the defective stuff. It is convenient to his plan, and it is not necessary to pay the transportation on defective stuff to some far-distant point to manu- facturers.: The Cuairman. I think you emphasized that in your testimony at Detroit. Mr. Sreenerson. You spoke of the high point in the prices on stumpage and timber in 1907. How did it compare before and after- wards? Mr. Poweiz. Well, the prices advanced on stumpage, but I am more familiar with the price of logs. Mr. Sreenerson. We are speaking of stumpage. Mr. Powett. The price on logs would have a reflex action on the stumpage. The high point on the price of logs was in the summer of 1907, and I think the same may be said of the stumpage. Mr. Sreenerson. Both before and after? Mr. Powett. That was better than we had ever seen it before, and it never reached that point since. Mr. Sreenerson. The statement you made in regard to the higher price under the Herrick bid was derived from timber that was actu- ally on the ground, and was based on the theory, of course, that that bid could be enforced ¢ - Mr. Powe tt. I think so. Mr. Sreenerson. Did you know anything about the $2,500 deposit? Mr. Powerit. As I remember it, the regulations required the suc- cessful bidder, or the man whose scale of prices was accepted, to enter into an agreement with the department and to give a bond in such sum as the Secretary might require, conditioned upon the observance of all the laws of the United States relative to trade with Indians. then in existence or thereafter enacted; also all regulations made by the Secretary, and I guess that was all. Mr. Sreenerson. That was subsequent to the bid. That contract would, of course, come in after the bid had been awarded ? Mr. Powrtu. Oh, yes; of course. ‘ oe Grorce. Mr. Powell, you are of counsel for the Lyman-Irwin 0.? Mr. Powerit. No. JI had put in a bid in the name of the Lyman- Irwin Co., but I was counsel for the Shevlin companies. Mr. Gzorcr. What had Mr. Shevlin to do with the Lyman-Irwin companies ? _Mr. Power. I will have to give the same answer that Mr. Nichols did. Whether he had any financial interests in the company or not I did not know. There was a young man employed at one time by Mr. Shevlin in the sales department by the name of Irwin, but whether he was the Irwin of the Lyman-Irwin Co. and had left Mr. Shevlin’s employ I am not able to say. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2291 Mr. Gzorcr. You are prepared to say that Mr. Shevlin was the boss of the situation in the Lyman-Irwin Co. ? Mr. Powety. Undoubtedly, through some agreement between him- self and the Lyman-Irwin Co., with the permission to use its name. Mr. Gxzorce. And he went into competition with himself. You put in one bid for him and Mr. Nichols put in the other-one. Mr. Powerit. Just the same as the other companies that put in three. Mr. Grorce. You put in one bid suspecting there was something wrong with the estimate? Mr. Powe. Both bids were put in with that suspicion, Mr. George. é Mr. Grorce. And you suspected somebody of having cooked up this thing in some way? Mr. Powett. Absolutely; no doubt about that. Mr. Grorcr. Did you suspect Maj. Michelet, who was the agent at the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Powett. Well, no; I did not suspect, Mr. George, any particu- lar individual. Mr. Georcr. Of course, some individual had to do it. Mr. Powe. There is no question about that. Mr. Gzorcr. Maj. Michelet’s name was attached to this advertise- ment. that created vour suspicion ? Mr. Powsty. That was as a matter of form. All business of that character was carried through the name of the agent. Mr. Grorce. Did you suspect the agent? Mr. Powetx. I can not say that I did. Mr. Grorce. Did you know the agent? Mr. Poweuy. No, sir; I did not know him at that time. I never met him until I went to the sale. Mr. Georcr. If you did not know him, how could you suspect him? Mr. Powett. I tell vou I did not. Frankly, it does not occur to me now that I had any suspicion of Michelet, because that transaction, apparently, did not originate there, and the transaction, such as it was, was of such magnitude that it would doubtless reach a good deal higher up than Mr. Michelet. Mr. Grorce. But Maj. Michelet was agent of the reservation? Mr. Powe. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. And a man of discernment, a man of good comprehen- sion. He knew about his reservation. Mr. Power. I think he did. Mr. Grorce. And you had no reason to believe that he was not a man of good understanding? Mr. Powerit. No. ; Mr. Grorcr. And therefore he ought to have known something about that reservation in its timber ? Mr. Powett. Yes. © Mr. Gzorcr. And therefore might have had some suspicion about this. Mr. Powety. He may have shared in the suspicion I had; whether he did or not I can not say. I never talked to him about it at the time. 2292 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Gzorer. But if you did not have any suspicion, where did you put Maj. Michelet in this matter—if you did not have any suspicion of him, where did you think he came in? Mr. Power. Merely as a clerk. Mr. Grorcr. He was taking orders? Mr. Powett. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. And did anybody in connection with the business that you represent try to get to Maj. Michelet and ask him in a per- fectly frank and open manner as to what his views were as to those estimates ? Mr. Powe. I know I did not. Mr. Grorcr. Did Mr. Shelvin, as far as you know, get any infor- mation ? Mr. Powe... I never heard of that; no—that he did or did not. Mr. Grorce. You did not trouble about Maj. Michelet? Mr. Powert.: I don’t think so. Mr. Georcr. If it was not Maj. Michelet that your suspicions at- tached to, was it the commissioner ? Mr. Powetu. No. Mr. Grorc#. You had no suspicions of Commissioner Leupp in the matter ? Mr. Powetz. Not in the least; I did not know Mr. Leupp at that time except by reputation. I had heard of him, and absolutely in my mind exonerated him. Mr. Grorcr. You are a very acute man. Mr. Powe.t. I don’t think so. : Mr. Gzorcr. Allow me to pay you that compliment. And your mind would naturally try to fasten upon the man who was trying to do this trick. Mr. Powetu. Not at that time. I wouldn’t like to commence to fasten suspicions on anybody. Mr. Grorcr. At some time subsequently ? Mr. Powe. I meant to do that, unquestionably. Mr. Grorcr. At that time did your mind attach to any particular individual ? Mr. Powe. No. Mr. Gzorcr. Did your mind at any other time fasten upon any particular person as being responsible for these estimates ? Mr. Powetu. No; it did not. Mr. Gzorcr. Those estimates did not just get down on paper and get published haphazard. Somebody must have been responsible for these figures. Mr. Powe... That is true. Mr..Grorcr. How do you explain it? Mr. Powerrt. I can not. I would be tickled to death if I could, for the good of the service and for this committee. ae Grorcr. Did you ever try to find out who wrote the advertise- ment ? Mr. Powe tu. Not at all. Mr. Gzorce. Do you know anybody about the Indian service who would know where a thing like that, naturally in the routine of the business, would originate? Mr. Powet. No, sir; I don’t know enough about the service to know where it would originate. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2293 Mr. Georcr. You do not care very much about that anyway, It is ancient history. Mr. Powe.u. It was ancient history until this investigation started. The bids were put in and I went back to my law practice, and the first thing I heard was that the whole matter was called off. Mr. Grorce. You had a suspicion that somebody was trying to put it over the Minnesota lumbermen or timbermen ? o Powe... To get away with that pine without giving us a fair chance. Mr. Gxorcr. But you had curiosity enough to try to find out who was doing it? Mr. Powrti. Now you are getting at another proposition. The ersons who were held responsible for it were Fred Herrick and the tearns Lumber Co. and their associates, Mr. Georcs. He did not write that advertisement, of course? Mr. Powe. That feature of it was too deep for us to tackle until we had to to find out to what extent their influence extended. Mr. Grorce. Where did you think this originated—the putting of these figures in a public advertisement and getting them advertised to the world to play this trick on the Minnesota timbermen ? Mr. Powe... I certainly felt it was operated through the Indian Bureau at Washington, but whether with the knowledge of the subordinates of the commissioner, or persons over his head, or per- sons I knew nothing about, I did not know at the time and do not know yet, and I have no suspicion of any particular person. I want to state in that connection the thing that led me to that sus- picion in a way. You are familiar with the investigation of the old scrip frauds under the treaty of 1854 with these very same Chippewa Indians, and in that connection it developed that at one time the Indian Commissioner himself, so the evidence showed, a Mr. Dole, as T remember it, was in collusion, if not in partnership, with land pur- chasers who were obtaining that old scrip and using it to obtain timber and lands. In that case the commissioner Mr. Grorcr. In this case did it occur to you that perhaps some- body was trying to use the commissioner? Mr. Powriu. It did not occur to me, and never occurred to me that anything of that kind was done—was being done—with the cui missioner’s conscientious cooperation, or conscious cooperation, 1t 1 may put it that way. d ; Mr. Grorcs. That somebody was deluding the commissioner in the performance of his duty, or thought he was doing a good thing for the Indians and for all concerned, but was really being tricked ? Mr. Powext. I, of course, don’t wish to cast any reflection upon the astuteness of Mr. Leupp, but this thing is true: In the business—a special business like the lumber business—it might be entirely pos- sible for interested persons to get through the department something that looked on its face like being all right in every respect and the commissioner enter into it in the most perfect good faith, and yet there would be back of it a manipulation that was fraudulent. Mr. Grorcr. Now, did you think there was any such manipula- tion as that back of Commissioner Leupp? ; Mr. Powett. I don’t remember that I did at the time. Mr. Gxorcr. You always had the greatest respect for Mr. Leupp’s integrity ? 2294 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Powetu. Absolutely; no question about that. : Mr. Grorce. Before and since, and you want to disparage his acute- ness, and yet you think there was some sort of a trick somewhere, and you exonerate the agent at White Earth, and you exonerate the commissioner at the top ? : Mr. Powett. That is a long ways. ; Mr. Gerorcr. And yet you don’t attempt to fix this. You say somebody somewhere got these estimates, got them into the adver- tisements; that they are “ going to play us a trick, and it is a fight now between the Wisconsin timber men and the Minnesota timber men, and we are going to play a trick on our side” ? Mr. Powr.u. To meet a trick with a trick. Mr. Gzorcr. Yes. Mr. Powerit. That is exactly it. Mr. Grorer. And you thought the Indian Bureau was perfectly straight in the matter? . Mr. Powety. No; I wouldn’t say that. I don’t believe that any- thing of that kind could have gotten through in the form it was without having somebody in the Indian Bureau that was cognizant of it. But I don’t undertake to fix that responsibility. Perhaps if I had investigated the thing at the end of the lawsuit this investi- gation of that feature would have been unnecessary, because when T got through with it I would have come pretty near knowing where that thing originated. But I did not know at the time, and I never believed that any feature of that character reflects whatever upon Mr. Leupp. , Mr. Grores. And you don’t take any of Mr. Leupp’s subordinates into consideration ? Mr. Poweti. I can not exonerate the entire department. Mr. Grores. Do you think that it was somebody under Mr. Leupp? Mr. Poweiz. Unquestionably. Mr. Georcsr. Did you ever look into the organization of the bu- reau to see where such matters might run? What officials it might go through? ; Mr. Powetu. That is an undertaking beyond the capacity of any one living man, in my judgment. ; Mr. Grorcr. To trace up an advertisement and order of this sort? Mr. Powety. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. We had officials before this committee who seemed to know the workings of that bureau very well. Mr. Powrtu. That may be true, but for an outsider, not for an out- sider to undertake to trace that. Mr. Georcs. You thought there was a fraud there or trick there? Mr. Power. I think it yet. Mr. Grorce. But you can not fix it upon anybody? oe Powexy. I wouldn’t say I could not; but I could say I did not. Mr. Grorcr. You had no desire at that time? Mr. Powett. No, sir; after the matter was dropped. In that con- nection I am not casting any reflection upon the heads of those de- partments, but I was satisfied at the time that nothing of that kind could have originated and come up in that way it did, with that ob- scure little advertisement put in only one Minnesota paper. The Cuairman. What paper? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2295 Mr. Powerit. The Tribune; with only two weeks, three weeks’ notice, with the peculiar features of the estimate that anybody knows was not even attempted to be met, and with these peculiar regulations that were adopted there in the form they were. It may be right; my judgment may have been all wrong, but at that time I believed that thing couldn’t have originated in that way without somebody being responsible for it and somebody intending a fraud somewhere. ? Mr. Gzorcre. Somehody inside the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Powe. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcz. And at Washington? Mr. Powrt1. Absolutely. ° Mr. Burcu. If carried out according to your idea, then, it would be defrauding the Indians in the final result ? Mr. Powe tt. I think so. Mr. Burcu. If people had been prevented from bidding for want of knowledge, or anything of that kind, it would have resulted in lack of proper competition, and, therefore, it would be a detriment to the Indians? Mr. Powe... Yes, sir. Mr. Georcr. You have stated in the warfare between the timber people in Minnesota and those in Wisconsin it was the business of the Indian Bureau to look out for the Indians? Mr. Powe. Yes, sir; that is what it was established for. Mr. Farr. After the bids were opened, it developed that the only contractor appearing in any of the bids was in the two bids made by Mr. Nichols and yourself? Mr. Power. That is all that ever appeared on the face of the bids. Mr. Farr. And the amounts of timber as given in the specifica- tions would in no manner give Mr. Herrick an advantage in the way he presented his bid ? Mr. Powerex. Oh, no; as far as his bid was concerned, there was nothing of that kind. The Cuarrman. Tell us a little more about the scrip frauds under the treaty of 1854, to which you referred. Could you do it with reasonable brevity ? Mr. Powe tt. I will try it. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you limit your suspicion, you say, to subordi- nates of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, or might it be higher up? Mr. Poweti. At that time, Mr. Steenerson, I wasn’t well enough acquainted with public affairs and had not in mind anybody in par- ticular, and I can not say that since that time I have had any occa- sion to suspicion anyone higher up in the department. Just how the thing was manipulated, or whether there was any manipulation or not, I couldn’t say, but I had that suspicion and acted accordingly. The Cuarrman. I renew my question now, Mr. Powell, about the scrip frauds. : Mr. Powe. The treaty of September 30, 1854, at La Point be- tween the Chippewa Indians and the United States first created a division between the Chippewas of Lake Superior and the Chip- pewas of the Mississippi, and provided for a geographical line di- viding one from the other. In that treaty there was a provision to the effect that every head of a family and single person over the age 2296 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. of 21 years at the present time of the mixed bloods of the Chippewas of Lake Superior should be entitled to 80 acres of land to be selected under the direction of the President. I think that is the substance of the provision. ; s The agent of those Indians, who was then located at Detroit, Mich., in 1855, wrote for instructions stating that some Indians had _ap- lied for land under that provision, and the department wrote him a etter, giving him instructions and construing some of the terms and calling for a list of the mixed bloods as he could find them. He presented a list of some 280 of that sort of the mixed bloods of the Indians of Lake Superior. Now, I am sorry I can not remember the matter in sufficient detail to give it in strict chronological order, but later the question arose as to whether or not that right to locate the land was a personal one which must be exercised personally by the Indian by selecting the land and applying for it under the direc- tion of the President, or whether it was a right which could be cer- tified to him and used in other location. The Secretary ruled, as I remember it, that it was a personal right and could not be certified, and that rule stood for a number of years until in the early sixties, when the question came up again and that ruling was reversed or departed from, and it was ruled that the Indian might have that right certified, and while it was held that he could not assign that right, that was gotten around by getting from the Indian a power of attorney to locate and then the power of attorney to sell for him, and the Indians then would have their right certified, then execute powers of attorney, and that became the so-called Chippewa half- breed scrip of Wisconsin and Minnesota. Interested parties started out then to find mixed bloods and to find mixed bloods of the Chippewas of Lake Superior, and since the Chippewas were not at any time a very extensive nation, they went to. Michigan and found all they could there, and they went to St. Paul and Minneapolis and found a number there, and all the various towns of Minnesota, and their operations extended, I believe the record shows, to Fort Geary and afterwards Winnipeg, and they got Indians wherever they could find them, and when they couldn’t find them they manufactured them, as in one case I found that came under my observation, where they used a Frenchman, who had no mixed blood at all, and in that manner obtained this scrip. In 1872 a com- mission was appointed by Congress to investigate the whole matter, and it was done, and you will find the record in the Indian Office and the Government Printing Office here. That was, in substance, that fraud of the scrip, and this fraud, as stated, was carried on at the time Commissioner Dole was in the office, and it appeared with his connivance and collusion. Mr. Burcu. That comes in indirectly or as a part of this scrap soon to take place, as we expect, in which Mr. Powell has appeared as one of the attorneys before the Interior Department between the so-called full bloods or Minnesota Indians and those whom they allege are not? Mr. Powsxy. Yes. Mr. Burcu. And in regard to the purifying of the roll? Mr. Powe... Yes, sir. : The CHatrman. Any other bid which you submitted; that is, if the bid of the Nichols-Chisolm Co. or the bid of the Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co. had been successful, would Mr. Shevlin or yourself or WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2297 the interests you represent have tried to interfere with the sale or the ae of carrying out the price list or letting according to the price list ? Mr. Powetu. Except to this extent, as I have it in mind now, I re- call that I had it in mind then to submit to the department the legal question, even under those conditions, as to whether that could be carried out legally and exactly that way, otherwise it would have been carried out. The Cuarrman. As the matter stood, you did want the letting or the sale, whichever you call it, set aside? Mr. Powett. In accordance with the law. The Cuarrman. In conversation, the Chair has already said to you that the committee would like to have your views on the whole subject later on, and the committee would be glad to give you lati- tude in submitting your views. Mr. Powe. I appreciate that the only feature is that this propo- sition involves a slight statement of fact as to the advice and protec- tion that it gives to Mr. Nichols in that connection. The Cuarrman. Do you wish to make it? Mr. Powe. I think I will have time to put that in the record. Mr. Nichols consulted me, and the question was presented to me as to whether or not the evidence on the White Earth Reservation was correct so far as the timber was concerned. At that time I advised him to purchase no timber on the reservation without paying a price that he could defend and to exercise all the care possible to get his titles before the purchase price was paid, which accounts for some of the things he said. The Penn Lumber Co. case was a case in which I was one of the company which were obtained in the United States Supreme Court. but which in other cases the Supreme Court prac- tically took away. : The Crairman. The letter of Mr. Powell to Mr. Simon Michelet, about which he has testified, is as follows. It appears to be undated, but the testimony of the witness shows that it was written the day the bids were opened at White Earth: Hon. Stmon MICHELET, United States Indian Agent, White Earth Agency, White Barth, Minn. Siz: The Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co., one of the bidders whose bids for timber on the ‘White Earth Indian Reservation were submitted and opened at the office of the Indian agent at White Earth immediately following the hour of 12 o’clock noon, on Wednesday, the 15th of November. A. I). 1905, in accordance with the notice of proposals issued by Simon Michelet, United States Indian agent, dated August 14, 1905, duly published and adjourned from time to time until the said 15th of November, A. D. 1905, hereby respectfully demands that the department determine the highest bidder for such timber upon the basis of the published terms contained in said notice of proposals and without re- gard to any other estimate or estimates. Among the reasons upon which this demand is based is this, that to figure the bids upon any other basis than the estimates as contained in the notice of proposals for bids published as aforesaid will introduce an ultimate intention to the bidders misleading to them and to the public and manifestly unfair. The department should be bound by these estimates as publisbed in determining the highest bid. é If the department thinks that any other rule than the one herein presented should be followed, the Lyman-Erwin Lumber Co. respectfully requests that it be given an opportunity to be heard before the department, in order that it may more clearly present its reasons that it has made demand at said sale, 73822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-3, vol 230 2298 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. and might be inferred for cause of an adverse decision of the department to take such steps as may be deemed expedient for its rights. Please forward this request to the department with your report upon this sale. Respectfully submitted. LyMAN-ERwIn LUMBER Co., By R. J. Powett, Attorney. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don’t know whether we have not spent more time than we ought in the consideration of this White Earth bid matter, although the chairman evidenced his great _inter- est in it at the time it first came up. I am now informed that George A. Ward, clerk of the office of the chief clerk of the Interior Depart- ment, and then in the Indian Office or Bureau, was the man who did this business; that is, he prepared the letters, memorandums, etc., by which this advertisement went out. I therefore move that he be subpeenaed, if the committee desires further testimony. The infor- mation comes to me from the Indian Bureau, from Mr. Meritt. We are trying to clean things up. The Cuarrman. When do you want him? Mr. Burcu. I suppose it might be well to require him to come here and then use him whenever we can. I think Mr. Valentine ought to be allowed to go on as soon as possible, because he is needed. The Cuarrman. Yes; I think so, too. Are you ready to proceed with him now? Mr. Burcu. We are. STATEMENT OF ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS—Continued. © Mr. Burcu. We were still at work when you ceased to testify on the besetments of the Indian Bureau, if I may so term it, and the difficulties surrounding it, and I think that we were upon the question of the possibility of delay from appeal to action or voluntary action from those higher up in the same department, and that you stated it was possible for delay at least to occur by reason of the necessity of the matter going through the Interior Department proper—that is not a matter of importance—after it left your hands. Am I cor- rect, substantially ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That arises, does it not, from strictly official orders and letter being countersigned or initialed by yourself or the acting commissioner, and then going up for the Secretary’s approval or signature? r. VALENTINE. Yes, sir; in many cases required under the law. Mr. Burcu. Then, if a letter should go through and pass into the hands of somebody acting for the Secretary to receive initials and thus be approved by that person and then passed on to the Secre- tary, delay might be occasioned by reason of their disagreement or disapproval of that action as indicated in the letter approved by your bureau? ~ Mr. Vatentrinz. Yes, sir; that is all possible. Mr. Burcu. And furthermore the letter might be delayed if such ree was busy about something else to occasion a considerable delay ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2299 Mr. Burcu. But in case such action occurred, then what would become of it—that is, the difference between you and that person— would it go to the Secretary or come back to you to be rectified ? Mr. Vatentinz. It might take either one of those courses. Mr. Burcu. That is, this official in the Interior Department might send it back to you and ee you instructions to amend it? Mr. Vatentine. No official would do it unless it was the Secretary or the Assistant Attorney General or one of the acting or Assistant Secretaries or some one directed by them to send it back after his minor official would send it back on his own account. Mr. Burcu. Now, if it would be a question with probably law intermingled, wouldn’t the letter go to the Assistant Attorney Gen- ane ey wouldn’t it go there naturally before the Secretary signed 1t ¢ Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And he has some 50 persons under him? Mr. Vatentinz. I don’t just remember, but quite a number. Mr. Burcu. This is the Assistant Attorney General of the Interior Department and not one of the Attorneys General of the Department of Justice? Mr. Vatentine. Not the Department of Justice. Mr. Burcu. Is some one of the persons under him especially ac- customed to devote attention to Indian affairs? * Mr. Vatentine. Some one of them. Mr. Burcu. Supposed to be specially for that work? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Would any letter of yours sent up for signature be likely to pass there without such an inspection ? Mr. Vatenttine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Your action must be really inspected or modified, approved or added to by some one above you in the Assistant Attor- ney General’s office or by the Assistant Attorney General himself before it can go out? , Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that is broadly speaking the case. Mr. Burcu. Not any other bureau but the Assistant Attorney General’s office? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; or some other persons under the Secretary. Mr. Burcu. What is the custom? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I mean letters, as a rule, go to the Assistant Attorney General’s office when they involve questions of law. The Assistant Attorney General’s office also frequently passes on ques- tions of policy or administration, then there are other offices outside of the Assistant Attorney General’s office to whom they are referred. Mr. Burcu. Supplies or something of that sort? : Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; then there is another man called assist- ant to the Secretary who handles such as inspection reports. Mr. Burcu. And the appointment of officials? ; Mr. Vavenrine. Then there is still another department which passes on the department of officials. I am simply pointing out to you that there are different avenues through. which the letters of the Indian Office go between myself and the signing office of the Interior Department. Mr. Burcu, Then, so far as you are concerned, you are not what we say sometimes facetiously in law the last guess on any proposi- tion? 2300 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr, Vauentine. Very few, sir. Mr. Burcu. You are not the manager of the Indian Department? Mr. Vaventine. No, sir. | Mr. Burcu. In respect to these Indian affairs? Mr. Varentine. I am only assistant manager in respect to a large number of them. Mr. Burcu. You do not carry, then, a free hand in the adminis- tration of the Indian Bureau in that respect? Mr. Varentrne. Broadly speaking, no; not in that respect. Mr. Burcu. You have stated, if I am not mistaken, that you were laboring under the stress of something like 1,400 acts of Congress? ‘Mr. Varenrine. There are more than that, sir; but something like 1,400 appropriations and funds. Mr. Burcu. Now, suppose you should be deeply interested, and be modified, overruled, and your action added to, I may say; have you opportunity to go to the Secretary ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You may always appeal, then, from any overruling of your action by any of these subordinates of his in his department to him? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is it possible always to get the Secretary promptly ? Mr. Varenrine. As a rule; yes, sir. : Mr. Burcn. Could you send a telegram involving any one of these matters of policy, appointment, law, or anything of that kind inde- pendently of yourself? Mr. Vatentine. Independently by myself, do you mean? In cer- tain matters; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Of what character ? Mr. Varentine. Well, broadly speaking, the law devolves a few things specifically on, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I think there is one report that we make to Congress that I have to make; all the others the Secretary makes. And then, broadly speaking, also, I have power to act under such rules and regulations as the Presi- dent may prescribe. Just what those were in past years I couldn’t tell you, but it has grown to be what might be likened to a system of commen law. We have certain matters where neither the law, nor custom, nor direct regulation of the Interior Department describes; otherwise the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has the right or could act in his own right. That involves, of course, the great bulk of routine matters. Then there are a large number of questions of policy which require reports to Congress on proposed legislation en which I simply follow the course you mentioned a moment ago of transmitting the letter for the Secretary’s signature, and then there are still other matters in which only the commissioner, or the Secretary, or the President has to act. I think I have tried to answer, broadly, your question. Mr. Burcu. Now, in your absence, who does this? Mr. Vatentine. Whoever may be the acting commissioner. Mr. Burcu. That is, do you not have an acting commissioner below the rank of second assistant? Is anyone else to act as commissioner below the rank of assistant? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2301 Mr. Burcu. Then there would be either Mr. Abbott, the first assistant, or Mr. Hauke, the second assistant ? Mr. VatenTine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do they have the same opportunity of access to the Secretary for consultation that you have, in your absence? Mr. VaLentTINe. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, would there be any way possible, under the pres- ent method of working and mode of the Indian Bureau, to obviate that—to save that apparent appeal ? Mr. VaLentine. Some of it could be saved, undoubtedly, but there is this difficulty, which lies, I think, basically, in the law: The Sec- retary of the Interior, under the law, has to approve a lot of things which the Commissioner of Indian Affairs puts up to him. Now, if he doesn’t look up the questions at all his signature becomes an entirely perfunctory signature. If he simply looks for my initial on a letter and signs it, it is merely perfunctory. In order not to make it perfunctory—as no live Secretary would want to be merely a perfunctory signer—he has to give that letter some attention. His duties are so great that it is impossible to give all those matters per- sonal attention, so he delegates certain things to subordinates in his office—I as simply stating the fact, without comment—which puts the Commissioner of Indian Affairs very frequently in the position of reaching the Secretary through a person of supposedly lesser ex- perience than himself. In other words, there is a dip in the process. Mr. Burcu. Now, let me ask you. Suppose it was a question of policy and in the division which takes into account for the Secre- tary questions of policy there is a head of the division, there is much work to do, supposedly much work to do, matters coming from all of the bureaus of the Interior Department, and the head of that bureau or division has no time to give to it, and he passes it out toa clerk drawing $1,200 a year, is that possible? Mr. Vaentinr. I don’t know just what the clerks who are given that’ work draw. Mr. Burcu. To an ordinary clerk, is that possible? Mr. Vauentine. That is possible; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is it often done? Mr. Vatentrxe. I should say not to a man that you would call an ordinary clerk, but a man in a clerical capacity. : . Mr. Burcu. It might be done to a man in a clerical capacity merely ? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. : ; Mr. Burcu. And not familiar with Indian affairs specially? Mr. Vatentine. That is possible, but the Secretary would be likely to refer it to some one who was familiar with it or in whom he had confidence for some other reason. - Mr. Burcu. The Secretary would refer it to the head of that division in matters of policy ? ; . Mr. Vatentine. Perhaps I can make matters clear if I explain just in two sentences the working of the office. In the old days there was in the Interior Department itself a division corresponding to each bureau within that department. For instance, for the Indian Office there was an Indian Division. For the Land Office there was a Land Division, and then there was a railroad division, which 2302 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. brought about the thing which you have in mind, not only a dupli- ‘cation of work but the Treat chief appointed by the President, and ‘supposedly because he possessed some ability and then drawing ‘$2,000, $2,250, or $2,500 a year; when Secretary Garfield came into office that was wiped out. Now, the present system is not that at all. "Those divisions with heads have been abolished very largely. There may be some remnants left, but at present these matters are largely confined to the office of the chief clerk, to the office of the assistant to the Secretary, and to the office of the Assistant Attorney General. Mr. Burcu. Now, there are many people in the office of the As- ‘sistant Attorney General, and some are ordinary attorneys, etc.? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. There are some people, at least in the office of the ‘assistant to the Secretary—not Assistant Secretary, but assistant to the Secretary? Mr. Vatentine. I think he is about the whole office in that par- ‘ticular case. Mr. Burcu. In the other one you mentioned—in the chief clerk’s office—there are a large number ? Mr, Vatentine. I should suppose so; I don’t know how many. Mr. Burcu. Much of this business goes to the chief clerk’s office? Mr. Vatentine. Some of it. / Mr. Burcu. Now, he may delegate that again to the clerks? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Hence there would be a possibility, as of old, that ‘a clerk might be overruling or modifying or changing in some man- ner the orders of yourself or the arrangements of yourself? | Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir; unless I felt it of sufficient importance, when it came to my attention, to appeal to the Secretary. Mr. Burcu. Is there any way to avoid this? Have you ever thought of any way to avoid this? I know I am treading on very delicate ground, but I want to know how things are done, anyhow. Mr. Varentine. I am satisfied that none of the Secretaries in the Interior Department would have any objection to my expressing my opinion, and if the committee wants any information, of course my opinion is at the service of the committee. It should be borne in mind that the present administration of the Interior Department is hardly a year old—-just about a year old—and they may not have given as much time to matters of organization as have come before me in the past seven years that I have been in the bureau; but it is my honest opinion that there is a certain amount of duplication, and the greatest difficulty lies in this particular point—that in order to keep business going, things have to be decided. Now, no two men, in fact, are really without differences of opinion and fully agree on any particular point. It is, therefore, necessary in all good businesses to have-one head, and I am frank: to say that I think the present system, for which the law is largely responsible, ‘does produce double-headed work, and there are many cases where the Commissioner of Indian Affairs should have the last guess, as you say, and should be held responsible for his guessing, and if he didn’t guess right he should be asked to quit and let somebody else come in that can guess better, but he should be relied-upon until he does that. That is an administrative difficulty. Some men in the office may have a lot better idea than mine, but while I am head of the department I WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2303 ought to have certain authority to act and be judged by my action, instead of having this feeling that we know is very largely existing that it is very hard to fix responsibility. Mr. Burcu. Would it not be necessary, in order to make a change in that, to begin to codify these 1,400 laws? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; legislation is the point to begin. Mr. Burcu. And all the way through that, in some form, places the responsibility upon the head of the Indian Bureau? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Instead of having it in the Secretary ? Mr. Vatentine. Except where it is necessary in matters affecting departmental policies, as a whole, to have the Secretary pass on them. Mr. Burcu. Then, would it be necessary to change the rules and He ceeulabions of the Department of the Interior on any unwritten aw ? Mr. Vatentine. If what you have suggested took place, a very thorough reorganization would have to take place in the regulations. Mr. Burcu. Now, I have gone through that matter, and I would like to again go to the question of your subordinate force. Suppose you have a man protected by the civil service that you regard as un- desirable, but you have no proof. For various reasons you regard him as undesirable, but you have no proof to have him tried as required by the civil-service law. Is there any way, in your judgment, where- by you could get rid of that man; get him out of our bureau? Mr. Vatentine. I should be very loath to assent to such a method, Judge, because in many ways the civil-service principles are constrict- ing when you compare them with the spoil system of times past. Mr. Burcu. No; you misunderstand me entirely. Is there any way of getting a min who is undesirable out of your branch of the service without a trial and without charges and all that sort of thing— transfer? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, within my own office I have a certain right, and there nave been two or three cases where I have told the Secretary, for instance, that such a man I couldn’t rely on any longer, as head of the office I felt I had nothing that I could prove against him, but that I didn’t feel, while I was responsible, that I should be compelled to rely on that man, but that in certain other work he would probably be a faithful employee, and there have been some cases of transfers made along that line. Mr. Burcu. Would it be possible for you to remedy many of the ills of your subordinate force by some free and unrestricted power if the Secretary should change on his own motion or your motion a man, for instance, from your service to the General Land Office or to some other one of the bureaus, and bringing somebody from that bureau into your office in exchange? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the Secretary has that power now. Mr. Burcu. Is it indulged in freely? : Mr. Vatentine. There is a certain amount of detail going on be- tween the bureaus. . Mr. Burcu. That is general between the parties themselves? Mr. Vatextine. No; we frequently ask for some detail to help out in some particular work. ; Mr. Burcu. How about transferring, if somebody should be moved out instead of moved in? 2304 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Perhaps I can get to your point quicker by saying that the thing is rather a cumbersome proceeding. Mr. Burcu. By law? ; Mr. Vatentine. Partly by law and partly by administration, and then I think that I should state frankly to the committee that I think the statutory roll is a great handicap. For instance, we have so many clerks in class 4, so many in class 3; class 4 is the $1,800 class, class 3 is the $1,600 class, and so on down the line; and the re- sult is that each year when we go before the Appropriation Com- mittee of the House we have to ask for these positions over again, and it makes matters of promotion, reduction, speeding up of work very much more difficult and gives us much less freedom. ; Mr. Burcu. Let me be plain with you, and, if you feel at liberty, I would be glad if you would be frank with me. Suppose John Jones, a figurative name, that is, a name used as a figure, comes to the suspicion of yourself or one of your trusted subordinates as being altogether too friendly with people on the outside. Such a thing, I presume, might possibly happen? Mr. Vatentins. Human nature exists. Mr. Burcu. And his lines had been so firmly cast there that you thought he was undesirable in your department but had no proof of his absolute corruption, and you thought, under those circumstances, it would take him some time to get the lines made up again if he con- tinued in such a process as you suspected him, if he went into the Agricultural Department or the Commerce Department or some other bureau of your own department, would that help you out in any way? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that would help out, and that can be done now. Mr, Burcu. Without the party applying for an exchange himself? Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir. ¢ Mr. Burcu. By order of the Secretary ? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Into any other department? Mr, Vatentine. Not into any other department, but into any other bureau in his department. Supposing he felt that such an employee wasn’t useful to him, but might be perfectly safe and useful in some other department, then the way would be to take it up with the head of the department. Mr. Burcu. In other words, there would have to be some legisla- tive action to bring these changes about where persons were reported as undesirable? Mr. Varentine. No, sir; not in all cases. Mr. Burcu. But if you interchanged between the departments? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know that I follow you clearly. Mr. Burcu. Suppose the Government should have the right of interchange—that is, of shifting from one department to another people that they were afraid were not desirable in one department? Mr. Vatentinz. But, you see, my difficulty in giving my opinion is this: As between two Cabinet officers we have no law of any kind that would probably take away from, say, the Department of Justice, saying whether it would receive a man that the Secretary of Com- merce and Labor might want to lose. Mr. Burcu. I mean some one to adjust such matters, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2305 Mr. Vatentine. Well, the heads of the two departments could hardly give up that right. Mr. Burcu. You have described here a very great difficulty in trial of men who are under the civil service; a slow, tedious process of getting rid of men who are under the civil service. Now, men might be very good workers, but might be under suspicion other- wise, and I am trying to find out if some method of transfer would help you? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; anything that would enable us to lose a man if we considered him an undesirable employee. Mr. Burcu. What about political influence? I would like to ask you in regard to that. I have already asked you something about the use of outside political influence. Have you any other ideas upon that subject ? Mr. Vatentine, I have nothing to add to the testimony already given, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Well, vou have described certai nkinds of political influence, such, for instance, as Members of Congress taking up time with other persons of high official positions, taking up time by making inquiries, and taking time to be heard, etc. Now, outside of that direct political influence, I mean, do they bother you? Mr. Vatrentine. No, sir; not any more than Members of Con- gress do. Mr. Burcu. How about the influence of the Indians themselves? Mr. Vatentine. They certainly have a right, if anybody has, to do everything, and we have no right to call it bother. Mr. Burcu. How would you classify the different kinds of in- fluence. Mr. Vauentine. Looking at it theoretically—I mean by that, stating what they all might be, whether they exist or not—one kind would be legislative political influence, another kind would be administrative. Mr. Burcu. That is political influence working through legisla- tion? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; and through Members of Congress; the other kind would be administrative political influence. Mr. Burcu. What is the administrative political influence? Mr. Vatentine. I mean that it might be the influence of any good administration or its different bureaus as to whether the bureau should be a political organizer within the administration or a busi- ness organization. . The Cuarrman. By political in that sense what do you mean—a force for partisan uses? : 2 Mr. Vatentrne. Yes, sir; I mean somebody might come in and yome new administration come in, or some old administration might say, we will use the Indian Bureau in order to protect our partisan political fences, and that would be what I should call administrative political influence. Mr. Burcu. Any other? on poss 2 Mr. VaLentIne. Then there is another form of political influence, using “ political” in the true sense of the term, of societies, organiza- tions, and individuals in private life or interested in Indian affairs, such as associations of various kinds. Mr. Burcu. Are there many? 2306 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. Vatentine. There are a large number. Mr. Burcu. A large number? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Could you name some of the principal ones? Mr. Vatenrine. Well, the Indian Rights Association, of Phila- delphia, of course, is one. Then there is what is called the National Indian Association, which has branches in very large number in the country in different States; they have a branch here in Washington and in Connecticut. Then there is the California Indian Associa- tion, and there is another one out there that I forget the name of. Then there is this Brotherhod of American Indians, which was just organized here in Washington. Then there is the Society of Ameri- can Indians, which was organized recently at Columbus. Mr. Burcu. That is the one of which Mr. Sloan was president? Mr. Vatenttine. He was the first president of that asociation. Mr. Burcu. Now, their influence is either for good or bad gen- erally. What is your opinion about the influence of these various societies, whether they interfere or do more harm than good? Mr. Vatenttne. Well, I think they do more good than harm, and of course they are susceptible of doing great good if they are run by wise men studying these subjects. Mr. Burcu. But do they hamper you or influence you largely, hamper you in the active discharge of your duties? _ Mr. Vatentine. Only in the broad sense I have to give a reason for everything I do, as being citizens of the United States. Mr. Burcn. You mean taking up your time? Mr. Vaventine. Yes, sir; but, of course, in so far as their actions go I was describing to you the range of different kinds of political influence. Mr. Burcu. I wanted more particularly the evil political infiu- ences, or if it takes your time and sometimes the time of the heads of the bureau ? Mr. Vatentine. There is mixed good and evil, of course, in all! these things. I thought the logical way was to show the different classes of political influence, and then I shall be glad to go into good and bad of each class. Mr. Burcu. I am afraid possibly we are taking too much time in the study. Mr. Vatentine. There is another very important class. Mr. Burcu. I would be glad to hear it. Mr. Vaentine. And that is, for instance, in the organized socie- ties, or one might say the organized big business around different reservations. You had an example of that which Mr. George brought out with lumber industry of Minnesota; you have it in connection with grazing problems, with mining problems or industrial forces on Indian reservations. Mr. Burcu. How does that manifest itself? Mr. Vatenrine. Well, for instance, I had a case this morning. I am not saying it was good or bad,.but just to illustrate my opinion. ‘It struck me with particular force because it happened when the committee had been questioning me on the subject of political influ- ence. About 9.30 a Member of Congress came into my office and said that a client of his, or a constituent of his, was interested in certain WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2307 leases on the Osage Indian Reservation, and that he had an appoint- ment there. It was a very rainy morning, you remember, and he had an appointment with two or three other Representatives and a couple of Senators to come and talk to me about these leases. Now, this, of course, makes congressional influences, keeping in mind all the time I am not kicking against it; I am stating the facts. This man lived in Texas and was interested in certain cattle leases on the Osage Indian Reservation. The man came into my office, and I got some of his points and told him that I would look it up; and I spent some time yesterday afternoon in looking it up, and he came in this morning by appointment with me and I told him there was nothing in his case. I said he was all wrong, and unless some better reasons were presented I would not take it up. It looked as though these men wanted to get this merely for political speculative purposes. Mr. Burcu. He was reenforced by a couple of Senators and sev- eral Members of Congress who came with him as a matter of courtesy ? Mr. Vaventine. Asa matter of fact they didn’t all arrive, and they were named to me in the beginning as men who were interested in this man’s cause. Now, that gets me away a little from the line of big business. I want to call vour attention particularly that this, of course, was a mix-up of the two kinds. Now, there is another kind, and that is the vast number of private interests existing on and around Indian reservations throughout the country. As I have said in some report on this matter—I think it was in my last annual re- port—the Indian proposition is not a question of so many Indians, but it is a question of about 10,000 white people scattered around, so you must deal with social matters. Now, a great many people with whom these influences are brought to bear are people largely wanting to purchase land from the Indians, largely by persons desiring to sell to the Indians, with the view and the big means adopted by all these persons, who are unscrupulous, is the liquor business. That is, I think, the great big fault that the Indian finds he is up against. and it will be the question of getting Indians drunk and intoxicated and break- ing down their physical and moral well-being in order to promote this process. Mr. Burcu. Demoralizing them in order to rob them? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely; the easiest wav to go through a man’s pocket is to get him drunk. Mr. Burcu. Do they sometimes take the form of commercial clubs? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Boards of trade or chambers of commerce? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; then there is another very interesting form of attack on the Indians that I would like to put before the committee. I am taking a good deal of pleasure in giving you this practical system of political science as it exists to-day. and that is the other bureaus of the Government. We always have to watch the Forestry Service, the Reclamation Service, the Geological Service, and all the other bureaus who, for instance, if it comes to a question between the Indian and a tree—and I would like to keep saying, if anybody ever sees this record, that I am stating general facts—that when it is a question between an Indian and a tree, that the United States Forestry Service cares more about a tree and the Indian Bu- reau cares more about the Indian. 2308 WHITE EARTII RESERVATION. The Cuairman. But practically ? Mr. Varentine. Practically also. Mr. Burcu. The Reclamation Service—you forgot them. Mr. Vatentine. Where it is a question of acreage and amount of water—in other words, existing all through this political matter— there is a lot of good-natured rivalry by each service in behalf of its particular job. . Mr. Burcu. Does the Geological Bureau come in? _ Mr. Vatentixe. They exist so much below ground that it does not come in so much. Mr. Burcu. The General Land Office? ; Mr. Vatenvine. But there, again, I say much conflict comes in in a question of natural resources. Now, there is another farm that T think of, and that is what vou might call more or less bureau poli- tics. We have got skillful employees in the Indian Service. Some people love to. be liked. They take the attitude of being a good fellow—always try to work up an attitude toward them of friend- ship and general joyousness instead of likmg merely to do their work as it should be done—to gain their influence in the service. Mr. Burcu. Complacency and amiable authority that affects your inspectors more or less? Mr. Vatentine. It might be conceivable very easily. We had, by the way, an old German superintendent up on the Fort Totten Res- ervation who, among other points, had an interesting idea about an old-fashioned inspector. He used to go around the Indian service with silk hat and act very pompous, and while the silk hat has some- what disappeared, the pomposity has not. You will pardon the pro- fanity, but it is necessary for the story, and whenever this inspector came around, he said, “Good God, when an inspector steps on one end of the reservation he expects the other to tip up.” But the point I wanted to make was that in a force of skillful em- ployees there is bound to be pulling, bickering, personal ambition that come up unless you have the ability yourself and the authority to establish a quorum that makes everybody one—that they are work- ing for their own political and departmental work. r. Burcu. Do these agencies of peace and good will ever trouble you in your administration ? Mr. Vatentine. I am supposed to be in some trouble on that account just at present. Mr. Burcu. I am speaking really soberly. Mr. Vatentine. They are a form of political influence in the scientific use of the term. Mr. Burcu. If you want to do things, some of them are liable not to want you to do that? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. But they are generally white influences or Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, there are a great many Indians en- gaged in this work; but the main arguments of this character, of course, are the white influences throughout the country. Mr. Burcu. You have heard of a class of men that are skilled land grafters, haven’t you? Mr. Vatentine. I think I can recall having heard of that. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2309 Mr. Burcu. Have you any well-defined idea of the means that they generally adopted in getting about your bureau to influence them in the disposition of the land? Mr. Vatentine. Their first means are usually directly on the In- dians by means of pacifying him with liquor or purchasing his good will. There have been a good many cases undoubtedly, I think probably the records will show evidences of some, where the man visiting the Indian is in the habit of giving him $5 or $10 to get him to sell his land cheap. Mr. Burcu. Will you tell briefly the several means that you have discovered of these people to operate upon your bureau, to operate against the Indians upon your bureau? a VALENTINE. They are so numerous that it is hard to analyze them. Mr. Burcu. I will distinguish a little. There is the general course of the agents themselves—when I speak of the agents I mean the supervisors of the Indian reservations. Mr. Vatentine. You mean the man in charge of the Indian reser- vation ? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir. Mr. Vatentine. We call them superintendents. Mr. Burcn. Isn’t it a way of reaching you through the land- sess or reaching you through them, through means devised by em ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, indeed. We have had some noticeable cases of dismissal just because of such cases. Mr. Burcu. Have you ever had such cases for the particular pur- pose of harming the Indians in that way? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Often? Mr. Vatentine. Well, frequently I have a feeling that a man may be reached for good reasons. Mr. Burcu. Is that generally through political influence that they seek appointment of such persons? : Mr. Vatentine. Well, it takes place sometimes through that, and there have been unconsciously delays during the present administra- tion because the real employing force, for instance, in connection with the land matters on any reservation are the white people who live on and around the reservations, and they sometimes seek one way and sometimes another of securing their wishes and by bringing undercurrent means to bear on the office. Mr. Burcu. If the Indian agent is weak in any way, they probably do it through him first? ; Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; he would be the natural point of ap- proach, because he is off there 1,500 or 2,000 miles away, and they could run a lot of things over if he was in with them. Mr. Burcu. If he is honest? ; : Mr. Vatentine. Then they generally bring charges against him; try to discredit him. Mr. Burcu. Is that frequent? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that is one of the greatest embarrass- ments I have, because, on the one hand, it is necessary in the spirit of manly fairness for the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to stand by his men in the field; and, on the other hand, it is up to 2310 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. him as a public official whose single and only duty is to investigate rigidly and fearlessly any such charges brought, and it puts him in a very difficult position. Mr. Burcu. If, then, you have a good, sturdy, honest man in charge of a reservation as superintendent, and he sets his face against the attempts of these people to despoil the Indian, about the first move is to find him guilty ? Mr. Vatentine. Then, Judge, all the powers of hell break loose against that man. ; Mr. Burcu. Describe some of the forms in which these powers of hell get busy and operate—that is, through whom or how direct. charges are brought to you. ; : Mr. Va.enting. Sometimes by direct charges, sometimes by in- sinuations, and usually by using some entirely imnocent well-meaning person ; for instance, the grafters the cognizance you will find in this attack on anything administrative as between the philanthropist and a grafter; the grafter goes to the philanthropist and the good man and gets him to think that something is wrong with the char- acter of this person and work under cover of the fine front that the philanthropist makes when the charges are brought. Mr. Burcu. They actually use these philanthropically and hon- estly disposed men to accompliish their purpose? Mr. Vatentine. That is as old as the history of the world. Mr. Burcu. I don’t know but that I have heard of it before, but it is broadly adopted in these cases? Mr. VaLentTiIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How about the inspection service? Do you have any suspicion about the possible methods of doing harm as well as doing good in going about ? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir; I don’t doubt they do. Mr. Burcu. I have seemed to get an impression from various ways that there is a similitude, to some extent in kind, I may express it, in the methods adopted on reservations very wide apart for dishonest, crooked work against the Indian, and I have wondered how that similitude could grow—whether it was by the same kind of ideas entering evil minds at widely different places at the same or similar time, or whether it might possibly be carried ? Mr. Vatenting. I think the big cause is like opportunities produce like activities. , : The Cuatrman. In other words, whether it was spontaneous or in- fectious? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is both. Of course, if one had a dis- honest inspector, he could be the one carrying the seeds very readily from one place to another. He could go from one superintendent to another and he could say, “ Now, this fellow and I are getting rich very well,” and he could do the same thing down there. : Mr. Burcu. It could be done. Then the similarity of enterprise among despoilers of the Indians could take place at widely differ- ent localities? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; then you must remember that the uni- versity of Indian encouragement, as it might be called, was founded 150 years ago and has had a good deal of experience on the job. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2311 Mr. Burcu. Are you ever conscious of the fact that the sins of these fathers of the Indian bureaus are descendent upon their successors from generation to generation ? Mr. Vatentine. Most decidedly. I don’t doubt that I made a lot of mistakes myself; but I think if I should have only my own mis- takes to care for I would have comparatively little trouble. Mr. Burcu. When you find deplorable conditions of affairs in your bureau and your reservation, have you any method of taking up the line of inspection, John Jones, inspector, on such a date of such a year, and George Smith, such an inspector following him on such a date, etc., and looking over their reports and seeing if they gave any indications of this line of trouble that has devolved upon you? =~ Mr. Vatentine. We have it now, Judge, but only going back a few years, because there was no precise organization of that kind until lately. Mr. Burcu. What can you do, if you could do anything, if you found, for instance, that three different inspectors in three different spheres had followed each other—one had gone, and another had gone, and another had gone in different years in succession, and re- ported nothing to you of moment, and when you were suddenly confronted with all sorts of trouble that. might possibly have been seen by a little closer attention, what would you do with those in- spectors? Have you any system of doing anything to them? Mr. Vatentine. They are just beginning to have such a system. Generally speaking, they ought to be fired—if their missing the point was due to their own incapacity or negligence. We have to keep in mind the human consideration, we have to keep in mind throughout the whole service, and I don’t know of a job in the Indian service where a man hasn’t really more to do than it is right to put on him. Mr. Burcu. Now, we have the case of Dalby and somebody else in the White Earth Reservation, where we found the “Old Nick” had been let loose. Now, under such circumstances, what would you do? _ Mr. Vatentine. The first thing to do would be to find out just what the nature of the job was that the man was on, how much of his time was taken up with it, whether it was of a kind which pre- vented him from seeing other things. In other words, in order to be just to him, you would have to make a very careful study of what he did do and what he did discover while there. Mr. Burcu. Now, I understood you to say that each one of these inspectors had a general admonition, if not an injunction, to report to you anything that he saw out of the way, whether it was in his line, strictly speaking, or not—that is, the medical inspector should report to you anything that he heard that was wrong? Mr. Vatentine. That is correct, but that may have been in exist- ence before; but I can only speak of my own knowledge on these subjects, being a matter of routine for the last few years. Mr. Burcu. How many of these inspectors in the aggregate did you meet—something over 100 of the different classes? Mr. Vaxentine. I think there were about 60. Mr. Burcu. And of the reservations? Mr. Vatenttne. I said the other day about 160 or 170, but some have been consolidated recently, and I can give you that figure in a moment. While Mr. Meritt is counting them, I might say that these 2312 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. are the jurisdictions. In many cases there is more than one reserva- tion under the jurisdiction. Mr. Burcu. But they are closely allied in distance? . Mr. Vatentine. As a rule; yes sir. About 140 disbursing officers in charge of reservations. . Mr. Burcu. Then you have more than one inspector to three reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, yes. ; Mr. Burcu. And it would be possible for the inspectors to have an inspection going on if you kept them moving around in rotation— an inspection going on practically one-fourth of the time on the reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. For example, our school men are sup- posed to make the rounds—each supervisor is to make the rounds of his district twice a year. Mr. Burcu. In their rotation ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. / Mr. Burcu. In the round of visitation of these by the inspectors each reservation might be practically under inspection one-fourth of the time? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. There are 140 jurisdictions. Mr. Burcu. One hundred and forty would refer to the jurisdic- tional officers? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and have 140 headquarters around the United States. Mr. Burcu. Sixty-odd inspectors. Mr. Vatentine. Of all kinds. Mr. Burcu. Chargeable to report what they hear. Mr, VaLentIne. With this limitation, Judge: Of course you take a man in the forestry branch of the work or a man in the irrigation branch of the work or a man in the medical service, he has plenty to do to attend to his own work, and the other things he sees would be only incidental. I would quite forgive a forestry man who might go onto a reservation for not knowing whether the children’s toilets were in a sanitary condition or an irrigation man from knowing what the conditions were in the woods. Mr. Burcu. But if things got in an unhealthy condition and he had to go in and around there you couldn’t prevent him from making some note of it? Mr. Vatentine. That is true. We, of course, have had disagree- able things to happen once or twice. The thing has, as I inelegantly expressed it, smelled to Washington before anybody in the neigh- borhood had their nostrils awakened to it. . Mr. Burcu. The surface was covered up, and you just happened to get down to it first. Mr. Vatentine. In some cases it did not seem to be covered up, because the political nostrils had got used to the stench. In a speech I made at the Lake Mohonk conference in October, 1909, where, by the way, the White Earth question first came before the public in one respect, I said: But I can not meet and hear and see all the good and all the bad myself. I must have eyes and ears in the field, going openly or secretly, seeing clearly, hearing fully all that there is. Gongress must give me—and I use the word “must” speaking as one of the people of the United States who elect Congress- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2313 men—a corps of inspectors who should be at least 30 as high-grade men in busi- ness training and moral sense as this country affords. At present, more or less accidentally, I have some 3 or 4 of this grade. These inspectors—you see, the number was greatly increased in the last few years—should be paid enough so that they can give their lives to the work. The Indian service is weak in the head, weak-eyed, and hard of hearing. The ten millions or so which go to make up the annual appropriation by Congress for running the service is not well apportioned. It does not recognize the necessity for leadership. Hundreds of thousand of dollars are wasted because the managers are not paid business salaries. Mr. Burcu. What do you read from? Mr. Vatentine. From a report of that conference, Mr. Chairman. The conference was held on October 20, 21, and 22, 1909, at Lake Mohonk, N. Xe and this is the report on the whole conference. I am ney reading the report of my speech as it appears in this docu- ment. Mr. Burcu. What is the page from which you read? Mr. Vatentine. The page from which I read is 18. It is the last full paragraph on the page. The Cuatrman. Anyone who wishes to follow it further can do so from this record? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How many trials would you give an inspector on a reservation, or on a series of reservations, that he visited and you found by checking him up in some way or another that he had failed to observe and report evil conditions? Mr. Vatentine. How many trials, I believe you said? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. He ought not to have very many. Mr. Burcu. Suppose John Jones, an inspector, starts out and visits a reservation, and within a reasonable length of time after that visit you find that he failed to see and report, or mistakenly or falsely reported, certain evil conditions on that first reservation, and in checking him up as to his standing, if you have such a process, you find that within a short time afterwards a similar occurrence in his case took place, and within a short or reasonable time after that still another similar occurrence of that kind took place, how many times would you allow him to go on in that way before he went out of your service or went into some other branch of it? Mr. Vatentine. Not more than once, if I had the goods the first time, unless there were very strong mitigating circumstances from which I thought he might learn something that would make him improve. Mr. Burcu. Have you gotten rid of any of such men? Mr. Vatentine. We have lost one or two of the incompetents by giving them some lesser jobs. : : Mr. Burcu. Do they, then, call your attention to these things and you remain unable to rectify them, or where you are well informed in regard to these evil conditions have no power to rectify them? May I draw that inference? : _. Mr. Vatentine. No; I don’t think that would be a fair inference. In the first place, one of the things I am now engaged on is trying to devise in my mind a way of strengthening my checks on my in- spectors. In all administration you ought to have balances and counterbalances, and you ought to have checks, and, on the other 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-8, vol 2——51 2314 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. hand, rapidity and smoothness of action. One of the great defects of the Indian Service to-day is that I have not the right kind of a check on my inspectors. Mr. Burcu. Is that a failure in the law? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; that is my own fault very largely. What I mean is that I have not yet been able to devise—I think I am solving it about now—but up to the present time I have not been able to devise a check on my reports here in Washington that I know everything that the inspectors report, so that I can correct every one of the errors, either of morals or judgment. The Cuarrman. Do I understand by that there is no machinery, no scheme, in the bureau by which the head of the bureau knows, even in a general way, what reports come in from inspectors in the eld? Mr. Vatentine. There is something of that kind, but nothing that in any way satisfies me as being adequate. Mr. Grorcr. I would like to ask if this machinery you have now is the same machinery that has been in the office for sume time? Mr. Vatentine. It has been there about two years, Mr. George. Mr. Georcz. You have better machinery in that regard for getting such information than formerly ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorez. What is your plan for getting that information? How does it get reported to you? Mr. Varenring. Well, what I am trying to work out is this: Tam trying to work out a system in the office by which some one, or two— it should be preferably, I think, three—high-class men should be able to absorb and digest everything that the inspection office sends in so it will not be left to an administrative division to take or leave the reports of these men, and that these three men should be a cabinet to me, so that even in the limited time I now have they could keep me generally advised whether the conditions are moving upward or standing still or moving backward on the reservations. Mr. Grorcr. You would have three men ? Mr. Vatentine. That is my plan. Mr. Georcz. Your plan is to have three men make a digest of all matters coming into the bureau so that you might be informed ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; in other words, it is my plan to establish what we might call an inspection division in my office, which should be a check on the inspection work in the field and in the office, so when the two get together, or when an idea came in that it not only arrive somewhere, but-that it bore fruit. Mr. Grorcr. Now, what is the plan? Mr. Varentine. One of the checks that I tried to have was that the administrative division, to which reports are made, should put on a record either a statement of the action taken or in every single case give the reason why action was not taken. In other words, there are lots of things that are left go by because an administrative official did nut approve of this idea or that idea, and I think it is safe to say there are a large number of ideas buried here in the Indian Office that could be worked out that have not been available for lack of such an organization I am trying to install. ' Mr. Burcu. I am not wishing to parade virtues of my own depart- ment freely, but more by way of illustration than anything else, I WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9315 have been struck by one consideration in this White Earth matter, and that is that a condition so terrible that you felt obliged to visit the reservation yourself and see it had arisen in a comparatively near-by place like Minnesota, along lines of national thoroughfare by railroad, and existing, or taking rise, apparently, many years ago, and existing for quite a long period of time unremedied physically, and also as related to property rights and destitution. By physical I mean respecting disease, subsistence, and property rights. Now, in the Department of Justice we have had for 15 years, during which I have made some observations in the field, about 10 men whom we call examiners under the heads in the department, with one or two clerks, called er agents. These men have had to travel over the field in a number of districts, approximating apparently the number of reservations you have and examine at Federal points like reserva- tions—that is, Federal cities, judges, marshals, district attorneys, clerks—and then go around the State where they are located and ex- amine deputies marshal who live at a distance and United States commissioners, their accounts, their capabilities, etc., so that I dare say within a very short period of time the record of each official of all that number could be found out in our department and known, if the question was raised. Now, in only two or three instances during the time I know of have clerks of the courts been proceeded against, and very few mar- shals have been found necessary to be eliminated from the public service. In other words, it has been a state of efficiency—and I know this because I have traveled around in remote parts of the country a good deal myself in the discharge of my duties—that I think is splen- did, and it has called to my attention this lack of effective inspection and publicity, as the President puts it, in the Indian service, and I am therefore asking you all these questions, hoping that some good may come from it in some way or another. Mr. VatentineE. I just said I considered it the weakest spot in the organization as it exists to-day. Mr. Burcu. Would not that be accentuated very much if that in- spector had means of putting his report, without your knowledge, into the hands of persons in sympathy with him in your bureau? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And may that not have been done in days past or may not that sometimes be done? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Thus a man having a motive for not seeing or not doing his duty as an inspector could make reports and yet have those reports put in the hands of persons, possibly in the bureau, who will see things in the same light he did. ; ; Mr. Vatentrne. For example, I think our inspection service turned in 140 reports in the last fiscal year. I don’t think I have seen myself a couple dozen out of that whole number, have not had the time to, and have only acted on these cases that the administrative officers bring to my attention. That is an absolutely indefensible condition to exist. Then there is another point in connection our own service: The Indian service is peculiarly difficult in that a great deal of the real inspection work that should be done in the Indian service 1s back-country work. Human nature being what is, people, unless they are driven to it by some strong moral sense, like to take the 2316 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. easiest road, and I have had a good deal of difficulty in establishing the right method of inspection. Getting off the Pullman car at the nearest agency and going in and spending a couple of days and hav- ing a merry time is not the way to go about this work. Thé way to study the Indian question is to get on a horse and go over the reserva- tion and see the Indians before you see your own superintendent ; get right at the Indians first. That is the place. Then get to the agency in the course of your work, at which time you will have gotten some ideas of the reservation without getting them and seeing them under the eyes of the agent. Then study your agency affairs, and then leave him to work out the other end of the reservation. Then go around outside of the reservation and meet all the white men that you can, because that is an essential part of the problem. In other words, Indians first, superintendents and employees second, and the surrounding white men, with whom the Indians are brought up, third, and see them as they live and get the ideas of all three groups. Only so, can an inspector or commissioner or anybody else, traveling, get down to the bottom problems, and that requires hard- ship, vigor, and intense interest. The Cuatrman. We must suspend at this point. There is a bill coming up to be voted on in the House in which we are interested, and we must leave now. The committee, at 5.15 p. m., adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, March 14, at 10.30 a. m. SUBCOMMITTEE oF CoMMITTEER ON EXPENDITURES In THE INTERIOR DepaRTMENT, Washington, D. C., March 14, 1912. The subcommittee met at 1.30 o’clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The Carman. Judge Burch, are you ready to proceed? TESTIMONY OF HON. ROBERT G. VALENTINE—Continued. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, I have forgotten exactly the topic we were on the last thing yesterday. You have had extensive dealings with the Indian committees, I suppose, since you became commis- sioner—that is, extended conferences with them collectively, as com- mittees, and with them personally, but still members of the committee, have you not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Of both Senate and House? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I will ask you what is your observation of those com- mittees as to their make-up with reference to their places of resi- dence in proximity to Indian reservations, Indian posts? Mr. Vatentine. I should say off-hand that the bulk of the com- mittees was made up of people from or near Indian countries. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever make inquiries as to how that came about and for what reason it is so? Mr. Vatentine. I never made any inquiries into the subject. As to the reason, of course I have assumed that there was probably a feeling among the Members of ee that people from the Indian country would know more-about Indian affairs. I do not necessarily consider that sound, myself. Mr. Burcu. If a man comes from a certain district and a certain State where there are several reservations, or even a single reserva- tion, the theory upon which he reaches that committee, or seeks to be upon that committee is because the reservation is in his district, the Indians live in his district, and he is supposed to have considerable acquaintance with Indian affairs on that account? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. . : Mr. Burcu. For instance, now, take. the State of Wisconsin; are there not quite a large line, quite a considerable line of reservations in the northerly line of—well, I might say western Nebraska—quite a number of Indian reservations? . Mr. Vatentine. No; the reservations along the northern line of Nebraska are just over the line in South Dakota. 2317 2318 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. In South Dakota? Mr. Vatentine. But in the northeastern part of Nebraska there are two Indian reservations, the Omaha and Winnebago, and farther north the Ponca. Mr. Burcu. But is it not true that these reservations in South Dakota are really tributary to the towns along the line of the Fremont & Elkhorn division of the Chicago & North Western Railroad, which skirts them to the south ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; that is their nearest railroad. Mr. Burcu. It traverses them to the south. Trade and other in- terests would naturally take themselves into the northern part of Nebraska, would they not, from those reservations? Mr. Vatenttine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. They come from the reservations through to the rail- road point in that way? Mr. VatentTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That district was represented by Mr. Latta, Judge Latta, or some such name as that, until he died? Mr. Vatentine. I think he represented the district which includes the Omaha and Winnebago Reservations, but I am not sure. Mr. Burcu. Do you know who represented the district immediately south of these Indian reservations? Mr. Vatentine. I think Mr. Kinkaid comes from in that country. Mr. Burcu. And he was not on the Committee on Indian Affairs, was he? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I think not. Mr. Burcu. The Indian reservations you speak of, would they come in the district of Mr. Burke, of the Committee on Indian Affairs? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; well, now, are there more than two Con- gressmen from South Dakota? Mr. Burcu. I think there are two, but I don’t think there are more than two. Mr. Vaventine. Well, then, the bulk of them would be in Mr. ae district; Mr. Martin’s district is the western part of the tate. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Burke was a long time chairman of that com- mittee, after Vice President Sherman was elected Vice President. Mr. Vatentine. I think he was chairman for one session. Mr. Burcu. Only one session? He was a long time a member, was he not? Mr. VatentiIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, is that district represented now by a member of the Committee on Indian Affairs—I mean that district south? Mr. Vatentine. In Nebraska? Mr. Burcu. The Latta district. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Stephens’s? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know Mr. Stephens. Mr. Burcu. You do not know Mr. Stephens? Now. take the dis- trict represented by Mr. Ferris, in Oklahoma. Is that district filled with Indians or Indian reservations? Mr. Vatentine. Very largely; yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2319 Mr. Burcu. I do not know that I am familiar with the personnel of that committee; I have not it here. Mr. Va.entine. Here is a Congressional Directory, Judge [hand- ing book to Mr. Burch]. r. Burcu. Take the district in Minnesota represented by Mr. Miller. Has that district some reservations in it? Mr. Vatentine. I assume so; I do not, of course, know the size of his district. Mr. Burcu. The Cass Lake Reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. That is near Duluth. ~ Mr. Burcu. The Leech Lake Reservation of Indians? Mr. Vaventine. I don’t know whether they are in the district or not. Mr. Burcu. The tendency, I suppose—what peculiar tendencies, if any, have you noticed in these committeemen in dealing with Indian questions; a tendency to assume that they have more than usual ex- perience in Indian matters because of their proximity to Indian res- ervations? : . Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think so; I think that it is only natural for them to feel so. Mr. Burcu. That they were under their care and that they under- stood better how to handle them than people from other regions? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that is their tendency. Mr. Burcu. What amount of trade, property, and commerce is there ordinarily around an Indian reservation? Do you buy all your supplies from abroad, or do many of them come from the immediate vicinity of the reservation; supplies of labor—casual labor, I mean—as well as supplies of material ? Mr. Vatentine. A good deal of purchasing is done in the imme- diate vicinity, and of course where white labor is used for any pur- pose on the reservation it would be likely to come from the reser- vation. Mr. Burcu. Temporary white labor? Mr. Vacentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. What proportion of the outlay would there naturally be in the vicinity that is local to the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. That would differ, Judge, in diffecent reserva- tions very materially. I think, speaking broadly, that—I think it would be safe to say that we make at least a third of our purchases by the open-market purchase system; but not all of that is in the vicinity of the reservation necessarily. Some of it is done by the warehouses, of which there are five, located, respectively, in New York, Chicago, St. Louis, Omaha, and San Francisco. Mr. Burcu. What are the other ways of supplying—the contract system ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Well, does not that come in to a considerable extent locally ? 5 Mr. Vatentine. Of course, some of the bidders are local. ; Mr. Burcu. Contracts for supplying articles for the reservation? Mr. Vatentine. Some bidders may come from the vicinity, but I could not give you any adequate idea of how many would. Mr. Burcu. Now, do you know the district represented by Mr. John H. Stephens, of Texas, the chairman? 2320 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. 8 Mr. Burcu. You don’t know whether that has any reservation in or around it? : : Mr. Vatentrne. I think there are no reservations in Texas; there are a few scattered groups of Indians. ard Mr. Grorce. Do you know where that district is? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. ; Mr. Gzorcr. Do you think you could tell whether any Indian reservation were there if you knew just where it was? Mr. Vatentine. Near it; yes, sir. ; Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Leupp says that there was some legislation back in the forties or fifties which ruled out Indian reservations in Texas; how is that? Are there any Indian reservations in Texas now? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I thought he wanted to find out whether there are any near that district, across the border in Oklahoma, or not. The Cuatrman. There could not be any Indian reservation in Texas: there was no land there under Federal jurisdiction. Mr. Grorcs. That is why they ruled it out, then. Mr. Burcu. I know pretty well the district represented by Mr. Stephens, of Texas. It was formerly the western part of Texas, along the Rio Grande. I think it was subsequently divided up, so that he did not retain the Rio Grande territory but the next district _ to that, and, as I figure it, immediately south of Oklahoma. In the southern part of Oklahoma are there any Indian interests or reser- vations? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; very large ones. Mr. Burcu. Oklahoma is almost wholly, or at least very largely, composed of Indian reservations, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, the whole eastern half of the State was originally the Five Civilized Tribes country, and the western part contains the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache Reservations, and the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Reservations north of that, and several smaller ones. Mr. Burcu. I find that Representative Stephens represents the thirteenth district of Texas; that it skirts Oklahoma to the west, on westward, and also on the south; a long line. Mr. Vatentinz. That would bring that district in close contact with a great deal of Indian country; a large amount is just over the border of his district. Mr. Burcu. Now, you have spoken of the district represented by Scott Ferris. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, do you know anything of the district represented by Mr. Carter, of Oklahoma? Is that not in the heart of the Indian country ? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is in the Choctaw and Chickasaw country, in the eastern part of the State, toward the south, along the Red River. Mr. Burcu. There is Mr. Gudger, of North Carolina, who is on the Committee on Indian Affairs. You have a Cherokee Nation in portions of North Carolina? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir; the Eastern Cherokees. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2321 Mr. Burcu. Are they in his district, or near there? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, sir. Mr. Burcu. I find the district represented by Mr. Rucker. Mr. Rucker, I am almost sure, is from Denver, but my impression is that he represents the district composed of the more northerly part of Colorado, not the southwest, where the Ute people are, but where, I should say—or where was it the Meeker massacre was? Mr. Vatentine. In the Uintah country. La Burcu. In the Uintah country? That is in Colorado, is it not! Mr. Vatentine. I think that massacre was in that part of the country. Since then those Indians have been moved to Utah and now live there. Mr. Burcu. Are there any reservations in the northern part of Colorado? Mr. Vatentine. No existing ones; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then he would be a member with no particular In- dian interests, unless it should be the Ute interests in southwestern Colorado? Mr. Vatentine. Substantially ; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. To go back to Mr. Gudger, of North Carolina, that is where the Cherokees are. That is, in western North Carolina, ee Carolina band of Cherokees, is it not? Near Murphy, Mr. Vatentine. Well, then, that is in his district. Mr. Burcu. The Cherokee or Qualla band of Cherokees, of North Carolina. I find Mr. Russell is a member of the committee from Missouri. Are there any reservations in Missouri? Mr. Vartentine. There are none in Missouri that I know of, sir. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Konop, of Wisconsin. Now, do you know which district he represents in Wisconsin ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. There are several reservations in Wisconsin, are there not, Indian reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, he represents that district north of Oshkosh and Fond du Lac, which takes in Marinette and Grand Rapids and all that country in the northeastern part of Wisconsin north of Lake Winnebago, off in there. Mr. Vatentine. North of Oshkosh, that would include the Me- nominee Reservation. , Mr. Burcu. The Menominee Reservation, that is a very important reservation on account of commercial and business interests, is it not ¢ Mr. VaLenTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is that where the big mill is located ? Mr. VauentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. O’Brren. I believe that is in Mr. Morse’s district. A very slight degree in Mr. Konop’s district; I think it is the Oneida that is in Mr. Konop’s district. Mr. Vatentine. Yes. ; Mr. Burcu. Now, here is Charles B. Smith, of New York. There are no Indian interests in New York, are there? Mr. Vatentrne. Very large interests; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Large? 2322 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. About five or six thousand Indians, but they are not under Federal management. _ ; Mr. Burcu. Well, then, it is not important, is it, for our considera- tion? Mr. Smith would not be in the—— ; Mr. VatentIne (interrupting). Well, there are, of course, certain points where the Federal jurisdiction touches. It would be of some importance. Mr. Burcu. Where is that? . Mr. Vatentinz. Oh, well, for instance, I think the old Ogden land claim would be considered a Federal affair in a certain sense, and the Government still pays the salary of an agent among the New York Indians and pays them their annuities. Mr. Burcu. It still pays them? os Mr. Vatentine. Yes; but their general management is in the hands of the State. Mr. Burcu. The State of New York? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there any reservations in Arkansas? H. M. Jaco- way is the member of the committee from there. Mr. Vatentine. I know of none from Arkansas. Mr. Burcu. I notice that his district comes within a very short distance of the eastern Oklahoma line. Are there any reservations along the eastern line of Oklahoma? Mr. Vatentine. All along the eastern line; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there any in Ohio? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Are there any interests, purchasing interests, or any- thing of that kind in Ohio? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of; but it is quite likely that some bidders might possibly come from Ohio. Mr. Burcu. That takes the Democratic side of the committee up. Now, Mr. Burke of South Dakota, I think, we have already discussed. Let us take Representative Philip P. Campbell, of Kansas. Mr. Vatentine. There are some reservations in Kansas. Mr. Burcu.’ What part of Kansas? Mr. Vatentine. I think some of them are either in or near his dis- trict. I am not sure of that, though. Which is his district? I think he comes from Arkansas City, does he not? Mr. Burcu. Just a moment. His district is in the southeast part of Kansas. Mr. Vatentine. That was my recollection; I think he would have none in his district; but I know he has been very much interested in the Nockworth School in the northern part of Oklahoma. Mr. Burcu. It borders on Oklahoma? Mr. Vatentine. It borders on Oklahoma, and it borders on the Osage country, and it borders also on the Quapaw country. Mr. Burcu. Then, there is Bird 8. McGuire, of Oklahoma. Mr. Vatentine. The Osage Reservation is in his district. Mr. Burcn. And Mr. Miller we have already discussed. He rep- resents the Duluth district, which takes in, I think, several of these reservations, if I am not very much mistaken. And Patton of Pennsylvania. Now, Mr. Patton, I think, comes from that part of Pensylvania which is south of Elmira, N. Y. The Carlisle Indian School would not be in his district ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2323 Mr. Varentine. I think not; that is near Gettysburg. Mr. Burcu. There is a Mr. Jackson, of Kansas; you do not know his district? It is the fourth district, and lies nearly—well, you may look at it. It lies in the eastern part of Kansas, quite a large district ; it comes within one county or two counties of Oklahoma. It lies west of Kansas City. Here is the district, you can look at it. Mr. Vatentine. Well, it would be either in or near the Kickapoo and the Pottawatomi Reservations. Yes; probably those reserva- tions are either in or very near his district. Mr. Burcu. Warburton, of Washington. Have vou any reserva- tions in Washington State? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; several large ones. Mr. Burcu. His district is the western district of the State of Washington—Puyallup ? Mr. Vatentine. That would include the Neah Bay Quinaielt Res- ervations, the Clark School, probably, and a lct of small reservations all along the inlets here. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Helgesen, of North Dakota? Mr. Vatentine. Of course there are several reservations in North Dakota. I do not know where he comes from. Mr. Burcu. Just a moment. Mr. Cameron, of Arizona? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know where he comes from, either. Of course there are big reservations in Arizona. The Cuarrman. He comes from Phoenix. Mr. Vatentine. Of course there is a school in Phoenix, and there are big reservations in Arizona. Mr. Burcu. Helgesen is a Member from North Dakota at large. Mr. Vatentine. Well, then, of course he would have interests in his district in relation to the Turtle Mountain, Devils Lake, and Fort Berthold Reservations. Mr. Burcu. Well, now, as I have marked these, on the Democratie side, consisting of 11 Members, 11 Democrats, I marked three who apparently have no Indian interests in the reservations—— The Cuarrman. Districts, you mean; they are “ off the reservation.” Mr. Burcu. Districts, namely, Messrs. Russell, of Missouri; Smith of New York; and Post, of Ohio, so far as I can judge—well, the interest in New York might include the district of Mr. Smith. I can not tell in regard to that; we have not looked it up. And on the Re- publican side, consisting of nine members, only one Republican, Pat- ton of Pennsylvania, who probably would have no Indian interests, so far as we know. Mr. Grorcz. When you speak of that, Judge, do you mean that these members—the majority in both parties on the committee—had reservations within their districts, or close to their districts? Mr. Burcu. Out of 11 Democrats, all but three seem to have In- dian interests or reservations within their districts. Mr. Grorer. Within the boundaries of their districts? Mr. Burcu. Apparently so; and of the Republican members, all but one seem to have Indian interest, all except Mr. Patton of Pennsylvania. Mr. Grorcez. Yes. ; Mr. Burcu. Now, I have not gone over the Senate committee. Do the committee feel interested in this subject? Mr. Grorcs. Yes. 2324 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. I supposed they did; it was upon that theory that I was going into it. The first, I find the chairman of the Senate Com- mittee on Indian Affairs is Senator Gamble, of South Dakota. We have seen that in South Dakota there are large Indian reservations. Mr. VaLentINne. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. Senator Clapp, of Minnesota. We have seen in this case that there are a number of reservations in that State. Senator McCumber, of North Dakota; there are Indian reservations in that State ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Senator Sutherland, of Utah; have you any reserva- tions in Utah? Mr. Vatentine. The Uintah Reservation. Mr. Burcu. That is quite important? Mr. Vatentine. Very. Mr. Burcu. And Senator La Follette, of Wisconsin ; there are very - important Indian interests remaining in Wisconsin ? Mr. Vatentine. Very; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And Curtis, of Kansas; we have already seen that there are interests in that State. And Senator Brown, of Nebraska. Now, have you many Indian interests or reservations in Nebraska? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; we have considerable. Mr. Burcu. Senator Dixon, of Montana. Now, how is it with Montana? Mr. Vatentine. We have three of our largest reservations in Mon- tana—four. Mr. Burcu. That is either the first or the second State in point of Indian interests, or Indian numbers? My. Vatentine. I should put it about third or fourth, probably. Mr. Burcu. Third or fourth; yes. And Senator Page, of Ver- mont; you have no Indian interests in Vermont, have you? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then there are nine Republican Senators on this com- mittee, of whom one Senator—Page, of Vermont—has no Indian interests, so far as we know, in his State. Mr. Grorcz. Yes. Mr. Burcu. On the Democratic side there are six members. Sen- ator Stone, of Missouri; there are no Indian interests in Missouri? Mr. Vaentine. No, sir; of course, Missouri is contiguous to some important interests. Mr. Burcu. Where are they? Mr. Vatentine. In Oklahoma. Mr. Burcu. In Arkansas there are none? Mr. Vatentine. None; there are some contiguous, though. Mr. Burcu. That is in Oklahoma again. Senator Davis is a mem- ber and Senator William J. Stone; and from Oklahoma is Senator Owen—of course he has Indian interests there—in Oregon, Senator Chamberlain. Mr. Vatentine. There are very large reservations there. Mr. Burcu. Senator Watson, of West Virginia? Mr. Vatentine. I know of none anywhere near him. Mr. Burcu. And Senator Myers, of Montana? Mr. Vatentine. Large reservations. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2325 Mr. Burcu. On the Democratic side, then, Senator Watson, of West Virginia, out of the six Senators, seems to have no interests in his State of West Virginia—no Indian interests. Now, I would like to have you state, if you will, what your notion or your idea or your opinion may be respecting the possibility of the local coloring; or your experience, if you choose to so state it—whether it is your opin- lon or your actual knowledge that local coloring has an influence, apparently, upon the course of these members of the committee, from the force of the local interests in their districts? Mr. Vatentine. It is both my opinion and my knowledge that to a very great extent there would be that local coloring, not by any means intentional or improper, but there would be that. Mr. Burcu. Not corruptly, you mean? Not in any sense corrupt? Mr. Vatentine. No; of course not. Mr. Burcu. Just state in what way, if you can; illustrate or state. Mr. Vatentine. Well, perhaps this will throw the clearest light on it: The constituents of a Representative or a Senator who has Indian country in his district would go direct to him, and the direct is always shorter than the indirect. Now, if the Senator or Repre- sentative on the committee were not from Indian country, the con- stituents from Indian country would go first to their own Senator and through him, probably, to the Senator on the committee or the Representative, as it might be; so that we have a less direct road. Mr. Burcu. Taking the Senator or Representative from the State not interested directly in Indian reservations, would there be any such influence as personal acquaintance with the traders and dealers with the Indians and the personnel of the Indian force?. Mr. Vatentine. There would be much less likelihood of that under those conditions than under the other conditions. Mr. Burcu. But it might be said, on the other hand, Mr. Valen- tine, that these men who have Indians in their districts have more knowledge of the Indians and their local interests, etc.; what have you to say about that? The Coarrman. You mean they are therefore better qualified to act. Mr. Burcu. Yes; they would therefore claim to be better qualified to act. Mr. Vatentine. That, of course, is undoubtedly the feeling among ell of the gentlemen from those districts, that they know more about Indian affairs than anyone who had not reservations in his district. I am not sure it is always the case. Sea : Mr. Burcu. It would depend, then, upon their patriotism and their disinterested care for these Indians as to whether such influence as the reservation business and reservation personnel did exercise would be good or bad? . . Mr. Vatentrne. Precisely; it would be entirely a question of the character of the individual—the character and ability. Mr. Grorcr. And what? Mr. Varentine. And ability. ae Mr. Burcu. Do these matters have any limiting influence over the Commissioner of Indian Affairs? Mr. Vatentine. Pardon me; I did not get the first word. Mr. Burcu. Will the stenographer read the question ? Stenographer reads last question. 2326 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. _ Mr. Burcu. For instance, suppose a member of one of these com- inittees approaches the commissioner or authorities of the Indian Bureau. Does he ever assume to know so much about it as to claim the right to have his advice followed, or his directions followed? Mr. Vatentrine. No, sir; my experience has been to the contrary. Men from States where there are Indians have taken the matter up with every courtesy, and I can not recall any attempt that was made in a browbeating way. Of course, it is only natural that they might sometimes say, “I came from this part of the country, and I person- ally know conditions in this part of the country.” Mr. Burcu. But as a rule they do not? Mr. Vauenrine. As a rule they do not; they simply furnish their evidence and state what they consider best. Mr. Burcu. In that respect, then, you felt no limiting influence from them ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. How about the action of their committees? Mr. Vatentrne. I should not be as well prepared to say about that. I have noticed, of course, a deference—I am speaking, of course, without any regard to any impropriety—I have noticed a disposition of one committee man to defer to a committee man who has such interests in his district. Mr. Burcu. If, then, a member of the committee is from Okla- homa, and a question involving Oklahoma interests comes up, you think you have noticed a disposition upon the part of the other members to say, “ That is in So-and-so’s district,” and then defer to that Representative’s opinion ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, not necessarily in the final result, to defer to his opinion, but at least to show a disposition to give him a full hearing before coming to a decision. For instance, when I have been before a committee they have passed a subject until the Member from the district involved was present. Mr. Burcu. So he could be heard ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have you ever found instances where that Member’s influence when he did return on the committee seemed to be of a paramount order? Mr. Vatenting. Well, I should say, speaking broadly, only on the round of his information appearing to the committee to. be more Il and accurate. Mr. Burcu. Do the committee desire to ask any questions on this subject? I was about to pass it. Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Burcu. It is a delicate subject with me, and one on which I do not wish to draw any conclusions. Mr. Grorcr. You are getting on to legislative territory. Mr. Burcu. Yes; I am only doing it for the purpose of finding out what limitations there are on the actions of the Indian Bureau, and not for the purpose of criticizing the Members of Congress. Mr. Georcr. It does not matter whom we criticize; what we are after is the truth. Mr. Burcu. It might not to you, but it does to me very much. Mr. Grorcz. Mr. Valentine, I have been very much interested in all this testimony and became interested yesterday when you referred to \ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2327 the “‘ big business ” on the White Earth Reservation. What did you mean by “ big business ” ? ‘ Mr. Vatentine. Well, I was quoting from what had already been said here, I think by yourself, as to the lumber interests of Wisconsin and Minnesota. Mr. Georce. Well, what did you understand the term “ big busi- ness” to mean? I just want to understand that. Mr. Vatentine. I meant the big lumbermen who are generally sup- poet to monopolize a very large part of the lumber industry in that section. Mr. Grorcr. Well, we clearly understand each other; that is just what I meant, too. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorcz. Now, then, as we have found it to be, and as our testi- mony shows it to have been on the White Earth Reservation, do you find in the course of your official experience that “ big business ” ob- trudes itself on other reservations? | Mr. VatentiIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Big timber business? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Georce. Big oil business? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Big mineral business? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorez. Big water-power business ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorer. -Big land-monopoly business? Mr.. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorcr. I am very much interested in this matter, to learn, if possible, from your experience whether this big business, besides going into business, goes into politics? _ Mr. Vatentine. Well, I, of course, have the very distinct feeling that it does. Mr. Grorcr. That big business is in business to make money, and therefore willing to use every factor it can control ? Mr. Vatentine. And that consequently neither the legislature nor the administrative lobby is unknown. Mr. Grorcr. Yes; and “ big business ” has its lobbies at Washing- ton, or at the respective legislative halls in the States, or anywhere that is necessary for it to do its big business? Mr. Vatentine. Or to watch it. Mr. Grorce. Or to watch it or to keep down rivals. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. é : Mr. Grorcr. Or to promote its interests, extend its domain? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Gxorcz. Therefore it is to be expected that “big business ” on the Indian reservations would be alert here at Washington at all times ? Mr. Vatentine. Very alert. : Mr. Grorce. And that, since “ big business” means large money in- terests and monopoly interests that can be capitalized in the money form, it is likely to go into the question of who is going to represent certain districts, namely, those including Indian reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. Undoubtedly, sir. 2328 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Gzorcr. In Congress; that is, if there is an Indian reservation in a certain State “big business” in that State would like to have some kind of control, and the more the better, over the Senators from that State and over the Representatives from that State. What would you say of that? Mr. Vatentine. I should say so, sir; yes. Mr. Georce. So that it is likely to go into elections, congressional elections and senatorial elections by the legislatures? Mr. Vatentine. That would be its tendency, I should say, most decidedly. Mr. Grorcr. So that it might seem that here was to be found a political influence, an influence besides the influences that you so clearly denoted here? Mr. Vaventine. Yes, sir. Of course, I am not—you followed out the line that I had in mind when I mentioned “ big business ” as one of the political influences. Mr. Grorcr. Yes; this is only to make it a little clearer in my mind as to what I thought you said. Mr. Vatentine. That is precisely what I had in mind, as you have drawn it out. Mr. Gzorcr. Now, in examining that list of members of those two committees, assuming that the men composing those committees are upright men, yet they would have to contend with “ big business” in their districts? Mr. VALentINeE. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorce. In these Indian reservations? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorez. And also the administrative portion of the Govern- ment would have to contend with “ big business ”? Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Guorcz. That these great influences, the timber influences, the mineral influences, the great ranching influences, the water-power influences, would all be there contending for something or against something? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. And in their own interest to the detriment of any- body that might get in their way, whether it be the Indians or the public at large? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorez. If you care to state it, Mr. Valentine, I would like very much to hear a little more about that Osage incident that you ale to yesterday—about “big business” coming into the Indian ce? Mr. Vatentinz. Why, I know very little about the case, because I had not passed on it myself until it was brought up to me yesterday; but in outline it is this: A gentleman, who, I assume, is in rather large stock interests in Texas, has some pastures in the southern part of the Osage Indian Reservation, and other lessees leased pastures in the other parts of the reservation. Now, this man put in or had ap- plied for leases in three groups; one group of 10,000 acres, I should estimate; another group of 10,000, and a third group of 10,000. The third group was in relation to his own pastures, down in the south, and it 1s probable that those will be approved. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2329 The other two groups of 10,000 acres each, roughly, were not in connection with his own pastures, neither were they lumped in other parts of the State, but were interpenetrated and interfused with pas- tures of other people, so that on the very face of the thing it was pretty clear, when a man wants a section or two sections in the midst of a township for somebody else, that he is buying that up for trad- ing purposes—in other words, it looked perfectly clear that the thing was for speculative purposes. Now, I do not want to do this gentle- man any injustice. I am simply saying what the proposition was on the face of it; and it was so clear to me, and they having given no evidence to the contrary, that I refused to reopen the matter in any way. They had already been turned down; and I thought that they had been turned down justly. Mr. Georcr. Now, supposing that in such a case there were certain oil deposits, very rich oil deposits, and assuming that the Indian Bureau should try to conserve the interests of the Indians there, but certain big business interests trying to obtain these should desire to use their political influence. Then they would go after their Sena- tors and their Representatives and urge them to act legislatively in Congress, and also to wait upon the administrative branch of the Government and bring influence on you as the head of that branch ? Mr. Vatentine. That is the general theory of action; yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Yes; now I suppose that that really does operate in some instances, it has so operated in the past? Mr. Vatentrne. Of course, it can operate in two ways, Mr. George, either through actual malfeasance in office on the part of the ad- ministrative official, or through his carelessness, or through the fact that by great pressure of other things, things get around him that he does not catch. Mr. Gzorcr. But there may be a very considerable pressure upon the administrative branch of the Indian government? Mr. Vatentine. It may be both so considerable and so subtle that sometimes you do not even realize it is there. Mr. Grorer. And it is likely to be exerted in a great many ways? Mr. Vatentine. Infinite ways. Mr. Georcr. And it is likely to operate at last, if there is much re- sistance to it, and there is a great desire on the part of “ big busi- ness ” to get some particular thing, it is likely to result in a great deal of influence being brought to bear against the man in the administra- tive part of the Government, is it not? Mr. Vatenting. Oh, very great; yes, sir. Mr. Gxorcr. So that it is a great check, a great handicap to his free exercise of power in his office? , Mr. Varentine. Yes; both directly and indirectly, because if he has had the good fortune to catch some of these schemes and stop them he not only makes an enemy of a man because of that particular scheme, but that man is thereafter constructively concerned in trying to oust him from office or get revenge in some other way, in the hope that some other person would get in who would go through with the case. Mr. Grorex. “ Big business” would go to any lengths? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; I expressed my feeling in regard to our experience yesterday. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2- 52 2830 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Gxorcr. So that the greatest power for evil against legislative action and against administrative action in the Government in behalf of the Indians is this “ big business” factor, which, seeking some- thing for itself, tears down and casts out anybody or anything that gets in its way? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir; tries hard to do so. It does not always succeed. It has been after me for some time and has not succeeded yet. There is also another point, Mr. George, and that is that it is not only “big business,” but vast aggregates of little business, that have a powerful effect. Mr. O’Brien. Those are generally organized in the form of com- mercial clubs about the reservations. Mr. Vatentine. Sometimes they are organized in that form, and sometimes they are unorganized. I mean a large number of small ones around a reservation acting all together. Each one might be a mosquito, but all together they make quite a buzzing. Mr. Grorcr. And it is very clear, or is it very clear to you, that where “ big business ” is involved in a particular State or any of its preserves are involved in any particular State, is it clear to you what might happen in a congressional election ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Georce. Well, what is clear in that? Mr. Vatentine. That every kind of influence might be brought to bear, corruptly and otherwise, to defeat a man they thought would ey for the right and to put in a man that they thought they could andle. Mr. Grorcre. Yes. Now, I am very much interested in getting a little more information. Perhaps you have given sufficient, but I have not the record, and I can not remember. But I would like to know what kind of agents there are in Oklahoma, how many there are, and why you oppose their removal? Mr. Vatentine. There are 16 of them, Mr. George, and each one has, roughly speaking, about two counties, as I recall it. Within the jurisdiction of each of the 16 district agents are something like 2,000 to 2,300 restricted Indians, minors, and Indians of such a per cent of Indian blood that their restrictions have not been removed under the acts of Congress removing restrictions. All the affairs of those restricted Indians, the sale of their lands, leasing of their lands, probate matters, everything of that sort, is under the general first-hand charge of these district agents. They act in cooperation with the probate judges; they act in cooperation with the taxing officials of the community to see that Indian lands, which are not subject to taxation under the law, are not put on the tax list, as is frequently the case when we are not on guard, the Indians frequently being humbugged into having their lands put on the tax lists. And they are on the lookout to prevent all things which lead to the corruption of the Indians, such as the introduction of liquor, and everything that would tend to get the best of the Indians, so that they stand as the guardians, not only in the legal sense, but in the moral sense, of those restricted Indians; between them and all the interests that wish to get the better of them; and it is therefore per- fectly logical, it seems to me, and inevitable, that since they do that the movement to get rid of them must come from those interests. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2331 Now, I am not by any means charging the gentlemen who are ad- vocating leaving out these district agents with knowing those facts: but I think if they were to think it out clearly they would see that that is where the movement must come from; and I think also if they would study the matter clearly, not merely think it out a priori, but study it in view of the facts empirically, any of the gen- tlemen could satisfy himself as to what these district agents have accomplished in actual values off land, say, of higher rentals paid, of probate cases settled wisely according to the testimony of the judges in nearly all these probate courts and, according to the testi- mony of the tribal officials down there and disinterested citizens throughout the State, they would change their opinion. I am per- fectly sure that I am not exaggerating in the least when I state to you, as I did the other day, that if those district agents are removed you will have 16 White Earth Reservations in Oklahoma. Mr. Georce. With the removal of these 16 district agents, who would take jurisdiction ? Mr. Vatentine. They are simply subordinate officers, under the superintendent of the Union Agency. r. Gzorce. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. Before they came into existence he had to do the thing generally, in a blanket fashion. Mr. Georcr. And because he could not perform these duties they were created ? Mr. Vatentixe. Precisely, sir. Mr. Grorce. And the 16 agents being abolished, then these duties fall back upon the general superintendent? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir; he would be as helpless as a wisp of straw in a stormy sea. Mr. Grorcer. Do you see any indications there of people like those es pee at White Earth ready to jump in like those at White arth ¢ Mr. Vatentixe. Yes, sir. Of course, the problem is different; there is not much timber there on these lands; but some of the lands are of very rich agricultural value. Mr. Burcu. Do they not have to each four a superintendent? Mr. Vatentine. Pardon me? Mr. Burcu. There are four superintendents ever these 16 district agents, are there not? 2 Mr. Vatentrne. Four supervising district agents? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. Well, they would go, too, Judge. Mr. Burcu. Oh, they would go, too. Mr. Varentine. Over these 16 district agents there are 4 super- vising agents; but if the district agents should go they would go, too. Mr. Grorer. So that, as it were, the State governments would be abolished and we would have only one genera] Federal Government there? Mr. Vatentinz. Yes, sir. In that connection I would like to say that it has been suggested to me that the committee would like to have in the record here the reports of Commissioner Wright and Supt. Kelsey, of the Union Agency, on these district agents; and I 2332 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. would like to have that part of their reports which treats on the. subject of these 16 district agents in Oklahoma put in the record. Mr. Grorcs. As to their powers? Mr. Varentine. As to what they have accomplished. Mr. Grorcr. When were the reports made? Mr. Vatentine. They are in the annual report which was made for the last fiscal year. Then they are also included in these hear- ings which I have referred to once or twice. Mr. Grorcr. Are they brief? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Guorcr. We would like to have one of those, to go in with this testimony. The reports in question are as follows: Distrrict AGENTS. JUSTIFICATION OF SUPT. KELSEY. The Indian Office and the department, I am sure, are well aware of the urgent necessity for the continuation of the district agency system. There are ap- proximately 36,000 allottees still within the restricted class in the Five Civilized Tribes. The work of these district agents covers almost every phase of the Indian situation, they having to do with the probate conditions, removal of restrictions, sale of lands under departmental supervision, handling of leases, ete. Some districts, at the present time, with only one district agent and one office assistant, have over 4,000 restricted Indians, besides being called upon to advise and assist, so far as possible, other allottees. They have been swamped with business and the good they have done can not be adequately summed up on paper. The honorable Secretary, in his report for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1910, spoke very highly of the continuance of the district agency system, and the amount requested, $100,000, ought, by all means, to be appropri- . ated. In fact, with that sum we will be far short of the amount necessary to do all the things expected of this force. Dana H. KELSEY, Superintendent Union Agency. Novemser 10, 1911. The honorable COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS. Sir: As requested in your letter of October 25, 1911, I have the honor to sub- mit the following justification of estimate for appropriation, fiscal year 1913: Item: For salaries and expenses of district agents for the Five Civilized Tribes, in Oklahoma, and other employees connected with the work of such agents, $100,000. This is the fourth year of the district agency organization in the Five Civilized Tribes, appropriations for the first three years being $90,000, and for the current year $100,000, and the above estimate for the next fiscal year is the same as that now allowed. As I am sure has been recognized by every officer of the department as well as the officers of the State of Oklahoma, with whom these district agents have been cooperating, there has never been any more effective legislation for the benefit of the full-blood Indians of the Five Civilized Tribes than that providing for the district agency force. The 40 counties in eastern Oklahoma are divided, at the present time, into 16 districts, each in charge of a capable district agent at a salary of $1,800 per annum, having office headquarters, with an assistant district agent to look after the office work. The district agent is in the field among the Indians and look- ing after the business of the public with such Indians on an average of four days each week and in his office two days each week. Appointments to these positions, under the Executive order of July 12, 1910, are made only by transfer of employees already in the service who are familiar with the complicated conditions of the work to be done, and who must be citi- zens of the State of Oklahoma, and all of such appointments are made under the rules prescribed by and with the approval of the Civil Service Commission WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2333 The division of authority, and therefore responsibility, between the State and Federal Governments, with respect to many phases of the Indian situation of the Five Civilized Tribes, makes it very necessary for State and Federal officers to work together in the protection of the ignorant full-blood Indians and the estates of minors and incompetents, and it is only by effective cooperation and the vigilant watchfulness of all interested in the upbuilding of the State and welfare of this large class of Indians that their property interests can be safe- guarded and their ultimate relapse to a state of poverty and complete depend- ence as public charges prevented. In this connection it should be mentioned that in addition to the assistance of nearly all of the county judges, with whom the district agents are most closely in contact, the cooperation of many other county and State officials is a matter which deserves especial mention, as results have been accomplished in many cases by reason thereof which would not otherwise have been possible. Particular mention might be made of the work done in one county within the last few months. Investigation showed a very deplorable probate condition in that county and the matter of remedying same was very splendidly handled by the joint work of the county and State officials and our district force, re- sulting in the resignation of the county judge, the refunding of over $60,000 in actual cash to the estates of minors, the quitclaiming of approximately 12,000 acres of land, and the prosecution by the county attorney and the State attorney general, followed by the indictment by a local grand jury of several persons connected with the alleged frauds, also the removal by the governor of a number of notaries public who were guilty of irregularities in connection with their offices, The work in this county alone since July 1 of this year has more than paid for the district agency service in the 40 counties of the Five Tribes for the whole year. Mention should also be made of a large number of cases in the northern part of the State, where it was shown that deeds and leases had been forged and many bona fide purchasers thereby involved. The officers of the district agency force heartily cooperated with the different county attorneys in running down these matters, resulting in the prosecution of a large number of parties charged with these crimes. Similar work has also been done in cooperating with the Department of Justice and the State authorities in similar cases in the Seminole Nation. There are approximately 36,000 members of the Five Civilized Tribes still in the restricted class, where a portion or all of their lands can not be alienated without the approval of the department. With reference to the removal of restrictions from this large area of restricted land, every individual application is initiated with and reported by the local district agent, and this therefore be- comes one of the most important of the duties of these men. Approximately one-fourth million acres of restricted land has been made taxable by unconditional removal of restrictions or the land sold through the district agency force, the effort being, where an Indian has more land than he can possibly use to advantage, to sell such excess portion and to use the pro- ceeds to place his remaining lands in a state of improvement to enable him to secure proper income therefrom, thus not only advancing the interests of that particular individual, but the community as a whole. Special effort has been made in these land sales to interest farmers and bona fide homeseekers through- out the Middle and Northern States. Much literature, advertising eastern Oklahoma, has been distributed during the past year. The placing of local men in the field is not only of great benefit to the indi- vidual Indian, enabling him to have his matters taken up and handled expe- ditiously on the ground, but is a great saving to the public generally that have business to do with such Indians. Without these local men it would be almost impossible for proper information to be secured upon which the department could act upon removal of restrictions, for instance. Prior to the authorization of the district agents removal of restrictions work was most expensive, was handled very unsatisfactorily and very slowly; it being necessary to have field men make long and expensive trip to look up different applications, and even then the information secured was oftentimes unsatisfactory, because it was impossible in the wide area to be covered for the person investigating to be familiar with local conditions. : It is safe to say that there is no place in the United States where the volume of probate business is as great as in eastern Oklahoma. In other localities it is the exception when the title to real property is in the name of a minor, and it 2334 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. must be remembered that a very large percentage of the millions of acres of fand that have been allotted to the over 100,000 members of the Five Tribes has been deeded direct to minors, and in addition thereto the interests of these minors, acquired by inheritance, are also very great. There is but one probate judge for each of the 40 counties, and in addition to the regular probate busi- ness these courts also bave criminal and civil jurisdiction, and the volume of their work is so great that it is practically a physical impossibility for them to give it the attention it should have. Considering these conditions, great credit is due the county judges for the manner in which they have handled the business, One of the most important branches of service rendered by the district agents is cooperation with the county judges in connection with this class of cases, In nearly every county the judges are constantly calling upon the district agents for assistance in Indian mutters, and the cooperation between the two forces has been excellent. In many of the congested counties we have, at the request of the county judges, detailed special assistants to check the probate cases and bring to the attention of the courts all delinquent guardians, cases of apparent irregularities in reports, insufficient bonds, etc. This alone has resulted in the saving of many thousands of dollars to minor citizens. The interests of the State and Federal Governments in these matters are mutual, and in nearly all of these counties the probate judges have not only assured me by word of mouth, but have also from time to time advised me by letter of the assistance given them by the district agency force. In fact, many of the judges state that such assistance is almost indispensable. I might cite ‘one instance of the case of Bryan County, from which county arose complaints with reference to probate conditions that were brought to the attention of the special committee of the House of Representatives about one year ago. Soon thereafter a new county judge was elected in that county and, with the assist- ance of the district agency force, there is now no county in the State where the probate conditions are in better shape. I have been advised by that judge that as a result of the labors of the special assistant who worked in his court for some weeks, over 500 delinquent guardians were required to report, several were removed, and a number of prosecutions undertaken by the State author- ities upon information secured by the checking work done. There are many matters of importance in addition to those heretofore referred to, which must be handled in the field, to which space can not be given in this report. Mention should be made of the complicated work in the handling of inherited-land deeds, which, under previous acts, must be approved by the department to make them valid, the leasing of restricted lands, the work of advice to the so-called Snake or other recalcitrant Indians, endeavoring to get them to accept present conditions and become contented and useful citizens of the State, the work of seeing that Indian children go to school, assisting in the sale of unallotted lands, per capital payments, etc. For a more detailed statement of the work actually done, I respectfully invite attention to my annual report for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1911. So long as there is Indian work to do among the Five Civilized Tribes there can be no more economical and satisfactory way to handle it than through local offices. It must be remembered that we now have an average of over 2,000 Indians in the restricted class for each district agent, besides business that naturally comes from the unrestricted class, because of their tribal interests. Unless existing legislation is entirely changed the work must be done, and if a field force is not provided, it simply means delays which are annoying and unsatisfactory, both to the Indian and the public, as well as the department. Very respectfully, Dana H. KeEwsey, United States Indian Superintendent. MusKOGEE, OKLA., November 14, 1911. Respectfully forwarded, concurring in the foregoing statements. J. G. WRicHt, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. Mr. Grorcz. Just a little further, as to the nature of this land. What kind of land is it, in the main? Mr. Vatentine. Agricultural land, cotton and corn land. Mr. Grorcr. Have you any idea as to its value; I mean as to its market value? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2335 Mr. Vatentine. From $15 to $35 an acre, and on some cases costs more than that. Mr. Burcu. Not irrigated land? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Georcr. There is a sufficient rainfall? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. , Mr. Georex. And is it pretty accessible? Mr. Varentine. Yes, indeed. Oklahoma has quite a network of railroads. Mr. Gerorce. Is there any mineral to be found in that part of the country, or in the land affected in this way? Mr. Vatentine. Well, of course, there is very valuable oil all through the Cherokee Nation, and extending over into the Osage country in the northern part of Oklahoma, and there are 300,000 or 400,000 acres of the so-called segregated lands in the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, in the southern part of Oklahoma, which furnish the chief coal supply for that part of the Southwest, and there is also some pretty valuable potential timber in the Choctaw Nation. Mr. Grorce. What do you mean by that? Mr. Vatentine. There is pretty good tie timber; there is some very valuable pine and some good hardwood. But if that section of the country were properly conserved there would be future timber there, and not only that, but the land lies in such a way in relation to the Red River that I have always believed that a good deal of the dredg- ing of the Red River could be avoided if the upper slopes of the river were properly timbered. Mr. Grorcr. Causing a greater collection of water and. Mr. VaLenTINE (interposing). Regulating the water supply, and there would be less siltage. Mr. Grorcr. Then the probabilities are that oil and coal might be found in this country ¢ Mr. Vatentine. Yes; and also lead and zinc. I will call your at- tention on this map to the Joplin zinc fields, in Missouri; they are right in this northern part of this Quapaw country, and the coal fields are down in here [indicating on map]. Mr. Grorce. Down in the central portion? Mr. Vatentine. The northern central portion of the Quapaw country. It is quite likely that there are mineral deposits here, and there is very good asphalt down in here [indicating]. It is quite likely that there are some mineral deposits running down this sort of a natural oil field; but, of course, the Geological Survey could give you more accurate information. : ; Mr. Grorcs. Have you any information from the Geological Sur- vey about that? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think we have. Mr. Grorcr. We would like to have that, if there is anything that will briefly show the nature of that country, its mineral possibilities, its oil possibilities, and anything that we could get on the timber riches of the country. Me Mr. Vatentine. I will supply that to the committee. Mr. Burcu. The committee will recollect that I called its attention at Detroit, I believe, to a case before the United States circuit court of appeals for the eighth circuit, in which the Government’s attorney had set up the claim that even though the Indians were emancipated 2336 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the Government had a right, as their general guardian, to step in and see that their wrongs were righted, and that case arises in this Qua- paw country, near Joplin, down near Oklahoma. It comes from that Quapaw Nation, like the mixed bloods who have been overreached in the White Earth Nation. His claim was that the Government would have the right to come in and litigate in its name as their general guardian and retain sufficient guardianship over them to set their wrongs right. ; ; Mr. Grorcr. And Mr. Valentine’s contention here is that the Gov- ernment should act before these interests of the wards of the Govern- ment should be clouded by any such action as has occurred in the case of White Earth. ; Mr. Vatenrine. I forgot to call your attention to the fact that before these district agents came into existence something like 30,000 tracts of land had had their titles clouded, and formed the basis of something like 30,000 suits. Mr. Georcr. In Oklahoma ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; which were passed upon unfavorably to the Indians by the local district court, and then the action of that court was reversed in the eighth circuit, I think it was. It is now on the Supreme Court calendar. Mr. Grorez. At what time was this? Mr. Vauentine. This was several years ago. You see, the district . agents were established about 1907. Mr. Grorcr. I asked the question with regard to the district agents. Did the district agents come after that? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; that is the point I want to make, that after the beclouding of all these titles took effect the district agents have come in, and they not only have, as far as I can see, stopped the further clouding of the titles, but they have been of great usefulness in getting absolutely fair settlements where the only thing wrong in the sale was the price, where there was no other fraud than in getting the full and fair price. For instance, somebody has proposed lately to introduce a bill in Congress which should settle‘all of these con- tested claims out of court at double the appraised value of the land. Now, our district agents have been in there and have made settlements for more than the appraised value of the land, and you can see right on the face of that that if that bill should pass it would be a steal. Mr. Gxorce. And the Indians would not get what they could get? Mr. Vatentins. Yes, sir. And our system of settlement, as Mr. Meritt reminds me, the appraised value of the land did not begin to represent what it was worth at the time of sale. I am not saying that was the value at the time of the appraisement. Mr. Burcu. Solicitor General Bowers informed me that there were 50,000 of these suits commenced by Mr. Russell. You are speak- ing of the suits commenced by Mr. Russell, are you not? Mr. Vauentine. I think so. But I am speaking of about 30,000 that still remain and which were carried into court. Mr. Grorcr. How much land is involved in these suits? Mr. Vatenrine. I could not tell you, sir; but it must be a very great acreage. Mr. Gxorce. Could you not tell us approximately ? Mr. Vatenting. Oh, a half million acres, at least. Mr. Grorcr. Who made these appraisals? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 23387 Mr. Vatentine. They were made, I think, in the old days by the Dawes Commission. Mr. Burcu. There is in this record a bill of very similar character, as we esteem it to be, that was introduced for the purpose of so-called relief to innocent purchasers. That bill provided, if I remember correctly, that after the Government should obtain title to the lands through the suits then brought, the courts should adiudge the value of the land predicted upon the prices of the surrounding land which, of course, had been sold during this saturnalia, so to speak, from time to time, and adjudge the difference between the amount actually paid for the land and the value reached by the court, if any, and that the parties might then keep the land upon paying that amount. That is in this record. ° Mr. Georce. And it relates to White Earth ? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcs. Now, in another portion of your testimony you inci- dentally made a remark that I would like to have further explained, if you please. I think you said you were supposed to be in trouble ae religious denominational matters somewhere. I did not quite get that. Mr. VatentiIne. Well, that was a jesting reference. I referred, of course, to the order which I issued several weeks ago in the extension of our religious regulations prohibiting the wearing of a garb or the use of insignia of any distinct kind as worn or used by religious or- ganizations in the Federal Indian schools while the employees so wearing the garb or insignia were on duty. Mr. Grorcr. Did you issue such an order? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorcez. Is there any law for that order? This is a new thing to me. Perhaps it was issued when I was away from Washington; so I am very curious to know just exactly what it is. How did you come to issue that kind of an order? Mr. Vatenttne. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that since the President has revoked my order and suspended my powers of action under it, until a hearing shall be held, which, I understand, is to be a public hearing by the Secretary of the Interior, it would be improper for me to make any statement on the subject of my order and the related papers which show its revocation. I shall be glad to submit to the com- mittee, at your request, for the record, copies of everything in that connection, as they have already been widely published. The papers referred to are as follows: [Circular No. 601.—Religious insignia.] DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, OFFICE COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, Washington, January, 27, 1912. To superintendents in charge of Indian schools: In accordance with that essential principle in our national life—the separation of church and state—as applied by me to the Indian Service, which as to cere- monies and exercises is now being enforced under the existing religious regu~ lations, I find it necessary to issue this order supplementary to those regula- tions, to cover the use at those exercises and at other times, of insignia and garb as used by various denominations. At exercises of any particular denomi. 2338 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. nation there is, of course, no restriction in this respect, but at the general as- sembly exercises, and in the public-school rooms, or on the grounds when on duty, insignia or garb has no justification. In Government schools all insignia of any denomination must be removed from all public rooms, and members of uny denomination wearing distinctive garb should leave such garb off while engaged at lay duties as Government em- ployees. If any case exists where such ar employee can not conscientiously do this, he will be given a reasonable time, not to extend, however, beyond the opening of the next school year after the date of this order, to make arrange ments for employment elsewhere than in Federal Indian schools. Respectfully, Ropert G. VALENTINE, Commissioner, THE WHITE Hovstr, Washington, February 3, 1912. My Dear Mr. Secretary: It has been brought to my attention that an order has been issued by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs supplementing the existing religious regulations in respect to the Indian schools. This order relates to the general matter which you and I have had under consideration and concerning which, at your request, the commissioner was collecting detailed information for our advice. The commissioner’s order has been made without consultation either with you or with me. It not only prohibits the use of distinctive religious insignia at school exercises, but also the wearing of distinctive religious garb by school employees, and provides that, if any school employee can not conscien- tiously comply with the order, such emyloyee will be given a reasonable time, not to extend, however, beyond the opening of the next school year, to make ar- rangements for employment elsewhere than in Federal Indian schools. I fully believe in the principle of the separaton of the church and state on which our Government is based, but the questions presented by this order are of great im- portance and delicacy. They arise out of the fact that the Government has for a considerable period taken over for the use of the Indians certain schools theretofore belonging to and conducted by distinctive religious societies or churches. As a part of the arrangements then made the school employees who were in certain cases members of religiows orders, wearing the distinctive garb of these orders, were continued as teachers by the Government, and, by ruling of the Civil Service Commission or by executive action, they have been included in the classified service under the protection of the Civil-Service law. The commissioner’s order almost necessarily amounts to a discharge from the Fede- ral service of those who have thus entered it. This should not be done without a careful consideration of all phases of the matter, nor without giving the per- sons directly affected an opportunity to be heard. As the order would not in any event take effect until the beginning of the next school year, I direct that it be revoked, and that action by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in respect thereto be suspended until such time as will permit a full hearing to be given to all parties in interest and a conclusion to be reached in respect to the matter after full deliberation. Sincerely, yours, Wo. H. Tart. The Honorable the SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR. THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, Washington, February 8, 1912. Dear Sir: I transmit herewith for your guidance a communication just re- ceived from the President with respect to your recent order supplementing the religious regulations in Indian schools. When you have compiled and trans- mitted the information with respect to this whole subject which you are now collecting, I desire to make appropriate arrangements for a hearing of all parties interested. Yours, truly, WALTER L. Fisuer, Secretary. Hon. Rosert G. VALENTINE, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2339 {Circular No. 605.—Revocation of Circular No. 601, concerning religious insignia and sus- pension of action in respect thereto. ] DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, OFFICE COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, Washington, February 6, 1912. To superintendents in charge of Indian schools: By direction of the President the order issued in Circular No. 601, supple- menting the existing religious regulations in Indian schools, has been revoked and action thereunder suspended pending a hearing to be given the parties in interest before the Secretary of the Interior. You will be governed accordingly. RogBert G. VALENTINE, Commissioner. Under the circumstances that I have briefly indicated, Mr. Chair- man, I hope the committee can seen its way clear to excuse me at this time. Of course you understand that I have no secrets in the matter of any kind, or anything of that kind, but pending this other public hearing I feel that I should keep quiet. Mr. Grorce. It seems perfectly proper that you should be excused from any further explanation of this matter, except, perhaps, as to the time of the hearing. What is the probable time of this hearing? Mr. Vatentinz. That I have no information about, Mr. George. Mr. Gzorcz. Have you any information as to whether it will be when the Secretary returns from Panama? Mr. Varentine. I simply assume that it will be, but I have no knowledge of any sort. Mr. Grorcr. He has sent you no word? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Caamman. We think that under those circumstances we should not go into the matter further at this time. Mr. Burcu. Have you secured a list of the tribal attorneys now in existence—that is, not the attorneys in existence, but the contracts now in force? Mr. Vatentine. I have here a rough list of what appears to be the attorneyships now in existence, but we are making a complete and careful list for you in accordance with your request the other day, which will be ready very shortly. I think that if I were to submit this list for the record it would be a little confusing. Mr. Burcu. Under those circumstances I think that it would be wise for me to defer any further questions about the attorneys until a complete list is made of both tribal attorneys and attorneys pro- vided for suits in the Court of Claims. I understand from Mr. Valentine that there is a document now in existence showing these attorneys in the Court of Claims previous to 1880. Mr, Vatenrine. You did not get that from me. Mr. Merirr. From 1880 to 1891. Mr. Burcu. And that they are now preparing a list from 1891 down to the present time, which will make a complete list of the attor- neys, the two together, that have been employed in the Court of Claims by the Indian tribes to prosecute their claims during the en- tire period since the Court of Claims was organized, I presume. These tribal attorneys are of a different class; they represent the Indians, by contract with the Indians, as attorneys for the tribes. That list, he says, is not complete, and I therefore will defer, with the consent of the committee, any further interrogation on this line 2340 WHITE UARTH RESERVATION. until these lists are complete. I understand that we are liable to have this hearing continued over for a week or two, and I think it would be a matter that could go over for the time being. ; The Cuarrman. It is not worth taking it up piecemeal; it is better to wait until you can get it all in the record at one place. You are right that there will necessarily be a gap in the hearings for awhile. Mr. Burcu. Then, I have not any further questions to ask Mr. Valentine that I know of; I do not think of anything now, but per- haps there may be something which I have inadvertently overlooked. The Cuarrman. Well, Mr. Valentine will have to hold himself in readiness for further examination, and he will have ample time to prepare that and the other things we have called for. ee The Chair is under the necessity of making a trip to Illinois in the near future, and I can not possibly get back before Wednesday next. Mr. Mondell is so situated that he can not sit with the committee, and Mr. George declines to sit alone, so that I take.it there will be no further sittings of the committee until next Wednesday. Mr. Sreenerson. Unfortunately I was not present at the beginning of your testimony, but I understand that you went into the Indian Office as assistant commissioner in January, 1909? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; December 1, 1908. ae Sreenerson. And then you became commissioner in the spring of 1909? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; June. Mr. Streenerson. And it was after you became commissioner that you made this arrangement with the Department of Justice about having a clean-up of White Earth matters? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Srrenerson. Have you here that letter which was introduced ie come in and over which there was so much controversy as to its ing? Mr. Vatentinz. I assume the committee has it, Mr. Steenerson. Mr. Steenerson. Well, that was the basis of the cooperation be- tween the two departments—that letter? Mr. Vatentine. No; I think not. I think that was simply a personal letter of mine to the Secretary calling his attention to what I considered the very great seriousness of the situation. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you know whether there is a record of this cooperative arrangement between the Interior Department and the Department of Justice about carrying on this White Earth matter? Mr. Vatentine. I presume there is, but I do not recall now just the way in which the arrangement was made. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you know whether it was in the form of correspondence ? Mr. Vatentrne. I do not know. a Srzenerson. It would not be by any correspondence of your office ? _ Mr. Vatentine. Probably not. Well, it would very likely initiate in our office, but would be direct between the Secretary of the Interior and the Attorney General. Mr. Srrenerson. I did not have a chance to read the letter over which there was so much controversy, but was that the beginning of that arrangement? , WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2341 Mr, Vatentine. I could not tell you, sir. It was simply my pur- pose in that letter to call the Secretary’s attention to the very vital need of action in the matter. _ Mr. Steenerson. Was it or was it not the beginning of the nego- tiations ? Mr. Vauentine. I could not tell you. I should have to have the record looked up. Sree’. You have not put anything of that kind in the record ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. : Mr. Sreenzrson. Well, what papers are in your office to indicate the nature of this arrangement between your department and the Department of Justice? Mr. Vatentine. I can not tell you; I will have to look it up. Mr. Steensurson. There is some correspondence, is there not? Mr. Vatentine. I assume that there must be. Mr. Sreenerson. They must have the arrangement there. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I should think so. Mr. Sreenerson. And you think it would show the scope of the work cee of the Department of Yustice in this White Earth matter ? Mr. Vatentine. I should judge it would. Mr. Steenerson. Will you produce that correspondence? Mr. Vatentine. I will be glad todoso. . Mr. Sreenerson. And also the Secretary’s letter based upon your bureau’s letter? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sremnerson. And the response of the Department of Justice, so we may understand what the arrangement is? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Srernrerson. Now, when this arrangement went into effect you shared the performance of your administrative duties to some extent with the Department of Justice, as I understand your testi- mony ? Mr. Vatentine. I should not put it in exactly that way, sir. The Department of Justice, if they will pardon me for my language, I should say acted as our attorneys in the matter—that we were the client and they were the attorneys. Mr. Srrenerson. Well, as lawyers—that is about the nature of the relationship ? Mr. Vatentine. They were our lawyers. Mr. Sreenerson. But, if I recollect correctly, you stated that you consulted the Department of Justice about retaining certain em- ployees or discharging them? | Mr. Vatentrine. Oh, yes; precisely. : ; , Mr. Sreenzrson. Do you consider the retaining and discharging of an employee a part of your administrative duties? Mr. VatentTIne. Yes, sir. — : . Mr. Sreenerson. Then you did share the administrative duties somewhat with the Department of Justice? Sere Mr. Vatentine. Well, I would not want to phrase it in just that way. I take the full responsibility for any administrative action that I took, and do not seek to turn that off on anybody’s shoulders. But the Department of Justice was up there as our agents engaged in this 2342 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. very difficult work, and if the relieving or retaining of any employee at any given time would assist them or injure them in their work I would naturally want to seek out that fact before acting, and would consult them, as I would consult anybody. Mr. Sreenerson. That is just as I understood, that you consulted with them about the removal and continuing of employees. Mr. Vatentine. If I had any information as to its effect on their work. Mr. Steenrrson. I believe you stated that the reason for retaining Commissioner Hall, after you had become commissioner and aware of the nature of his work, was that the Department of Justice desired to have him continued as an employee? Mr. Vatentine. They felt that his leaving at that particular time would muddy the waters. Mr. Srrenerson. Now, in other respects you still carried on your administrative duties with regard to White Earth? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Uninterruptedly ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. They sifiply acted as your lawyers, as you say? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sternrrson. And as sort of an aid to the purposes of your work? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. In taking care of the Indians? Mr. Vatenting. Yes, sir. Mr. Strenrrson. And do you know whether there is anything in the written report of the arrangement about the nature of this rela- tionship ? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you, sir. * Mr. Sreenerson. No, ordinarily, you consider that your official duties require you to look after the Indians, including the White Eearth Indians, in every way? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Their health, their morals, their industry, and general welfare? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; when they are our wards. Mr. Sreenerson. When do they-cease to be your wards? Mr. Varentine. To either a partial or complete extent when the restrictions are removed. Mr. Srernerson. Then the Clapp amendment, for instance, which applied to adult mixed bloods on the White Earth Reservation, re- moved such restrictions; and was it your understanding that then the Indian was removed from your guardianship ? Mr. Vatentine. If he was within that definition. To a very great extent, of course, there is a twilight zone between the Federal laws and the State laws; the Indians who may be removed from our juris- diction in one respect are still within it in another. For instance, when those Indians were allotted they were made citizens of the United States. Mr. Srrenerson. Under the Dawes Act? Mr. Vatentinz. Yes, sir; or under the special act, if it were one. Mr. Steenrrson. The Burke Act? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2343 Mr, Varentinz. No; I mean the act allotting, whatever the act allotting was. a SreenERson. Well, they were all allotted under the Dawes Act up there. Mr. Vatentine. Well, then, it carries citizenship with it. But the restrictions were removed without any roll being made, so that who was or who was not a mixed blood was not made clear with absolute certainty, and those who were really mixed bloods still further broke away from our jurisdiction in that, I understand, the act, by virtue of its passage—that is, the moment the President signed it—transferred the title of the lands to those Indians, and therefore our issuance of a patent was merely an administrative act, which might be used for advertising purposes to convince a man in Iowa or elsewhere who wanted to buy land there that the title was good, but that it did not add one iota to the real value of the title; the title passed and was out from under our jurisdiction in every possible way. Mr, Sreenerson. The title; but how is it about the allottees? Mr. Varentixe. There is where the twilight zone comes in. In so far as they are citizens of the State, it is, in my judgment, plainly the duty of the State to enforce the liquor laws and to enforce its health laws among them. Now, the ordinary way would be, as I believe the State physicians suggest, to establish a sort of cooperative system between the Federal and State governments; but that is a very confusing status, as you can readily see. : Mr. Steenerson. Yes; I appreciate that. Now, this was your ad- ministrative construction of the Clapp amendment, as I understand it, that it had this effect? Mr. Vatentinz. That it removed the restrictions absolutely as to the guardianship. Mr. Sreenerson. And that was concurred in by your legal ad- visers—that administrative construction ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I am informed that is the general under- standing. Mr. Streenerson. And that was without regard to the competency or incompetency of the particular Indian? ; Mr. Vaten'tine. Unfortunately, absolutely; yes, sir. Mr. Steenrrson. Now, let us assume this case: That there was an adult mixed-blood Indian, who, after the passage of the Clapp Act of 1906, might have a piece of land worth $10,000, and he was in- competent to do his own business and ought to have a guardian. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. : . Mr. Sreenerson. He could sell and convey his land and give a good title, even though he only had a trust patent, as you have con- strued the law? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. : Z Mr. Sreenerson. And receiving that $10,000 in this supposed case, it would be entirely beyond the control and jurisdiction of the United States, no matter how incompetent he was? Mr. Varentine. Wall, of course, I am not a lawyer, and I do not think I could answer that question intelligently. sal ; Mr. Sreenerson. I think you have placed some administrative construction on it. 2344 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I think not. I should not feel competent to pass on that point. Mr. Sreenerson. Has that kind of a case ever been suggested in the administration of the law? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall one offhand, although there may have been one. Mr. Sreunerson: There were on the White Earth Reservation many adult mixed bloods who were competent and adult mixed bloods who were incompetent, and they did sell their lands and re- ceived their money? Mr. Vatentine. That is one of the things that I assume we asked the Department of Justice to look into. ; Mr. Sreenerson. But you do not know whether you came to any conclusion about your course in regard to them? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I do not recall. Mr. Sreenerson. You do not that you ever considered the ques- tion whether you would have the right to make the purchaser pay the money to an agent or to the Government? Mr. Varentine. Of course, we ran into a lot of cases that were fraudulent or looked like fraudulent purchases, where an insufficient price had been paid, but as to whether the recovery of that lay with the Federal courts entirely, with the State courts entirely, or whether there was some kind of a mixed question there, I am not competent to pass upon. The Cuarrman. Even a lawyer could not answer it, according to Judge Burch’s statement of the situation, because he would first have to determine what was a mixed blood, and Judge Burch has re- peatedly said to us that that was a question undefined by the courts, that the courts may say—and he was inclined to think ought to say— that every man who has some white blood in his veins is not neces- sarily deemed a mixed blood, or, in other words, that the legal meaning of a mixed blood may not be detrmined to be the same as the meaning we usually attribute to it. I do not know what the courts will say, but I am quite satisfied the law ought to be as he says. Mr. Sreenerson. The question I asked assumed that there was no dispute about the blood, but that he was an adult mixed blood. The CHarrman. You may have had that assumption in your mind, but you did not include it in your question. Mr. Sreenerson. I did; I assumed he was an adult mixed blood. The Cuairman. But you assumed a definition of a mixed blood which differs from. _Mr. Srernerson (interposing). Oh, no; I mean there was no jus- tification for that at all. I repeat now that my question assumes that the allottee was clearly within the Clapp amendment, described there as an adult mixed blood, and was, as a matter of fact, incom- petent to attend to his own business, but, of course, under that re- moval of restriction law did convey good title. Now, supposing that he received a large sum of money, was it your administrative construction of the law that you had nothingéto do with that money or any power over it, notwithstanding the fact that he was in- competent ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2345 Mr. O’Brien. I think Mr. Steenerson is asking Mr. Valentine to pass upon the question that is now before the United States Circuit Court of Appeals. Mr. Sreenerson. There is no objection to that, is there? The Cuamman. Suppose he and the court should disagree? Mr. Sreenerson. I am asking for his administrative construction of his duties at the time, and there is no secret about a case pending in the Supreme Court; it is not like this other case. The Cuarrman. He has said that he has not been called upon to give it any administrative construction, and he ought not to be re- quired to pass upon a hypothetical question. _ Mr. Sreznerson. If the chairman desires to rule that the question is improper—— The Cuairman (interposing). It is entirely for Mr. Valentine to say whether he wishes to tell what his administrative construction would be when the case came before him. Mr. Sreenrrson. It has a bearing upon the administration of the law at the time you came into office, but as I understand it you never considered that question, whether you should seize upon money of incompetent Indians who were admittedly adult mixed bloods on White Earth? : Mr. Vatentine. Well, I think it would be impossible for me to alswer your question directly. Mr. Sreenerson. I simply asked whether you had considered that question ? Mr. Vatentine. No; I do not recall having considered that ques- tion. But I can throw some light on the situation, perhaps, in this way, that one of the things which led to my feeling that the matter should be referred to the Department of Justice was that two very basic doubts entered my mind. Perhaps I ought not to call them doubts, but two very basic questions stood out in my mind; the first one was this, that it apparently was a very backhanded, upside-down act to pass the amendment of 1906 or the amendment of 1907 until, first, the question had been decided as to what was a mixed blood; and, second, until an absolutely careful roll had been made to show who were mixed bloods. And, as I recall it, it was my assertion that I regarded that as a very serious omission when the matter first came before me, and which seemed to me to make the act an im- possible one to administer fairly to anybody, Indians or whites; that was the basic thing in having its submission to the lawyers of the Government for them to tackle. ; Mr. Sreenerson. I was not asking about your submission of it. I assumed, of course, that you took your lawyer’s advice. Mr. Vartenttne. And that answer explains why I could not pass administratively upon it. . Mr. Steenrrson. Before you go into any other subject, the ques- tion I want answered is this: That you did not place any administra- tive construction upon the law in that regard? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall placing any, sir. — : ; Mr. Sreenerson. And you do not recall ever having tried to seize upon that kind of a fund? | ; Mr. Varentine. I do not, sir; no. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 253 2346 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Srrenrrson. Now, there has been a change in the organization of your bureau, I believe you said, since you became commissioner ? Mr. Vautentine. Certain changes; yes, sir. ; Mr. Sreenerson. And you think it has been improved so far as organization is concerned, and that it is a more effective organization ? Mr. Vaventine. I think we are moving ahead; very slowly, but ahead. Mr. Sreenerson. Was there any organization in regard to medical service among the Indians—that is, looking after the health of the Indians and sanitary conditions, when you became commissioner ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Have you changed that? ; Mr. Vatentine. I have changed it some and enlarged it some. Mr. Sreenerson. That is a part of the work of the Indian Bureau, I believe? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr, Sreenerson. Under what appropriation does that come—that is, out of which of these numerous appropriations that you have spoken of? Mr. Vatentine. I assume that the local physicians are paid out of the Chippewa fund. Mr. Sreenerson. In White Earth? Mr. Vatentins. In White Earth; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. There is an appropriation in regard to that, is there not? Mr. Varentine. There is a general appropriation for the relief of distress among Indians, etc. Mr. Sreenerson. Is there not one in regard to disease? Mr. Vatentine. At White Earth? Mr. Sreenerson. No; generally; which applies to White Earth and everywhere else. Mr. Vatentine. Yes; this general appropriation that I spoke of. This is the way it begins: “ For the relief of distress,” but it is what we call our general health appropriation. Mr. Srernerson. “For the relief of distress” includes medical services ? Mr. Vatzent1ne. The rest of the wording shows the full scope— “to relieve distress among Indians and to provide for their care and for the prevention and treatment of tuberculosis, trachoma, smallpox, and other contagious and infectious diseases, including the purchase of vaccine and expense of vaccination.” Mr. Stzenerson. That is one of the things in the annual appro- priation bill? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. How long has that been carried in that form? Mr. Vatenttne. I think for about three or four years. I think Mr. Leupp started it when he discovered trachoma at the Phenix school and got a rapid-fire appropriation of $12,000, if I recall cor- rectly, and this has grown from that. _ Mr. Srzenzrson. Is that the last appropriation bill you are read- ing from? Mr. Vatentrne. It is the pending bill before the House. Mr. Sternerson. That is a general appropriation out of the United States Treasury and not reimbursable? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2347 Mr. Vatenting. That is correct, sir. Mr. Sreenrrson. And what is the amount? Mr. Vatentine. The amount this year is $75,000; at least that is what we asked for. Mr. Stzenzrson. And you got all you asked for? Mr. Vatentine. I am afraid not. Mr. Sternerson. How much did you ask last year? Mr. Vatentine. Last year I think we asked for about $70,000, as I recall it. Mr. Sreenerson. Did you get it? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. You got all you asked ? Mr. Vatentine. No; we got $60,000. No; we did not get all we asked for. Mr. Steenerson. I was thinking you got all you asked for, accord- ing to the Book of Estimates here? r. VaLentTINE. I think they shaded us a little. I am engaged in trying to run this appropriation up from the $12,000 that Mr. Leup: originally got to at least a quarter of a million dollars, if not a ood deal more, and I can only get a little way up the ladder each year. Mr. Sreenerson. It has been increased every year? Mr. Vatentine. So far. Mr. Sreenerson. How about the expenditures? Was it expended last year? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Every cent? ; Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you offhand. It is a pitiful drop in the bucket considering our needs over the country. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you know how many thousand dollars re- main unexpended ? : Mr. Vatentine. I can get you that information, sir. Mr. Steenrrson. Could you give me that also for the previous year? ” Mr. Varentine. I can give you the unexpended balances for each year; yes, sir. . <5 Mr. Sreenerson. Now, you say that the White Earth physicians are not paid out of that appropriation ? Mr. Vatentine. I could not answer that offhand. Mr. Steenerson. You could not? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Steenerson. I thought you said so a moment ago? : Mr. Vatentine. I said I thought they were paid out of the Chip- pewa fund. Mr. Srezenerson. How many of them are there? : Mr. Vatentine. I think there are four at the present time, and the chief supervisor is there. Mr. Steenerson. Of what? _ Mr. Vatentine. Of our medical work. ; Mr. Sreenerson. And how many have been there during the last three or four years, since you have been connected with the bureau? Mr. Vatentine. I think it was shortly after my visit there that we increased the force somewhat, and either last year or the year before we directed a house to house canvass, and during the last 2348 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. year or year and a half, if I recall correctly, there have been four physicians on the White Earth Reservation. That is a larger number per acre and per man than we are able to carry with our appropria- tions throughout the country. Mr. Steenerson. You also have a larger number of physicians in proportion to the number of the Indians on White Earth than elsewhere? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Now, a large number of White Earth Indians are not residents of White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. I have been so informed, but I do not know. Mr. Steenerson. I think they are carried on the rolls as about 5,000. Mr. Vatentiye. I think that is correct. Mr. Sreenerson. And are you not aware that there are about two- fifths or one-fourth of them elsewhere? Mr. Vaventine. I have no knowledge of that. I have a general idea that a good many of them are nonabsentees. Mr. Sreenerson. You know that the Indian agent travels to Minneapolis and elsewhere to make payments of annuities to ab- sentees, do you not? Mr. Varentine. Well, I do not recall that. Mr. Srerenrrson. Then your office does not keep track of whether they are really on the reservation or outside of it? Mr. Vatentine. Well, the office may know; I am only giving you my personal information. Mr. Sturnrrson. Could you have it looked up; that is, whether or not a greater number of Indians belonging on the White Earth Res- ervation have been absent from the reservation during the last two or three years than formerly? Mr. Varentrne. I will have it looked up, sir; yes. Mr. Steenerson. I am getting letters from people in Idaho, Wyo- ming, Washington, Montana, and Eastern States, who claim to belong to the White Earth Reservation, so I judge that the Indians belonging to the White Earth Reservation are not actually present there in large numbers, and, of course, that would reduce the popula- tion served by these doctors. Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. It would not reduce their work very much, as it may be presumed that those needing medical attention are not the ones who have gone off from the reservation. Mr. Sreenerson. Truly. But it shows the fact that you have there a pretty good supply of doctors. _ Mr. Vatentine. Well, I should say inadequate to meet the situa- tion. Mr. Srzenrrson. Have you had reports from the different reserva- tions each year about their medical condition ? Mr. Vatentine. We have been making a very careful study of the country, but we have not covered it as it should be covered. Mr. Srrenrrson. Now, at the beginning of each Congress you sub- mit estimates for the appropriations you desire, I suppose ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; under certain limitations. Mr. Sreenerson. What are the limitations? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9349 Mr. VatentinE. Well, for instance, the general.policy of economy. As I say in my annual report: The estimates last year— that is, the fiscal year ending June 30, 1910— were so cut to the bone that more than one year of this low limit of appropria tions might seriously impair efficiency. I have tried to prevent any possibility of this impairment by lifting such appropriations in the current estimates as are necessary to secure, first, a decided improvement in the quality of our personnel; and, second, freedom from danger to Indian children and to em- ployees from fire and from insanitary conditions that exist because of Jack of proper repair and replacement funds for our agency and school plants. And I think it proper, in passing, Mr. Chairman, to call attention to the fact that those estimates are cut in the bill as it is reported to the House, which I feel The Cuarrman (interposing). You mean the present one? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. I feel that if we can improve our per- sonnel we can make certain economies and make money go further, and it would not be wise at this time, in many instances, to put more funds into the hands of people who might not be wholly com- petent to handle them. I also say in my report: Another year, on the foundation that will be then securely laid, if the Con- gress appropriates according to these estimates, we shall need more funds for our allotment and irrigation work and our health and industrial campaign. I have not asked as a rule for increases in these funds this year, as I feel that before we take on more funds we should lift salaries of our field managers to a point that will insure a more constructive and economical use of the funds we now have. = The Cuarrman. Have you on hand now, from the current appro- priation, sufficient, funds to meet the exigencies which have arisen, or which exist at White Earth, both as to medical help, when addi- tional is needed, and as to food supplies and other necessaries? Mr. Vatentine. I doubt if we have, sir. The Cuarrman. I wish you would get more accurate information on that point. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you consider that when the Indian Com- mittee gives you all the appropriations you ask for that you are pretty lucky to get them? Mr. -Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Strenerson. And this item for the Chippewa Indians in the appropriation bill last year was appropriated just the way you recommended, was it not ? Mr. Vatentine. I think probably it was. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, I see here $90,000 and $150,000; they are fixed amounts that are carried every year, are they not? Mr. Vatentine. I could not answer that offhand, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, we will get that to-morrow. Now, you say something in your last annual report about health. On what page is that to be found? : Mr. Vatentrine. That is right at the front, I think on page 5 of the report. . . Mr. Sreenerson. I will read that section and ask you about it. [Reading :] First in importance come the means employed to protect and improve the health of the Indians—a part of the service in which the office has a medical 2350 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. supervisor, 100 regular and 60 contract physicians, 54 nurses, and 88 field matrons. In the Indian community, as in other communities, there is insistent concern for the cure of existing disease and increase of personal efficiency. In carrying out preventive measures a very promising beginning has been made in having physicians secure intimate information about the living conditions of each individual, by going from house to house and camp to camp, and exam- ining closely into hygienic conditions. This aggressive campaign awakens the Indians to the danger of tuberculosis, trachoma, and other infectious diseases; and, through simple instruction and suggestion, helps them to some under- standing of how they can improve their living conditions and extricate them- selves from the unsavory and insanitary environment in which many or them have existed. : Results are already apparent. A physician at White Earth, Minn., reports that upon his second round of visits he found marked improvement in 50 per cent of the homes. Then it goes on about Arizona. You based that upon reports that there was improvement in the health conditions? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. For how many years, so far as you know, has there been a marked improvement in health conditions in White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. I should assume that from the general state of affairs as we found them when we began this house-to-house campaign after Mr. Moorehead’s return, the conditions had been growing worse rather than improving. Mr. Sreenrrson. Then, it is not correct, this last ? Mr. Vatenting. Yes, sir; and conditions had been growing worse up to the time we began this Mr. Sreenerson. Three years ago? Mr. Varentrine. Yes, sir. Mr. Srrenrrson. And they have been growing better since? Mr. Vatentrne. That is my understanding. Of course, they are still unspeakably bad. Mr. Strenzrson. But of course you have not looked into the ques- tion of how bad they were before Mr. Moorehead came there? Mr. Varentine. No. Mr. Sreenrrson. It is possible that they were still worse? Mr. Va.enring. I am sure they were very much worse. I think they have been growing steadily worse because of the removal of restrictions and the introduction of liquor. Mr. Srrenrrson. Been growing steadily worse since what time? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, I could not say. Mr. Srernrrson. Since what time have they been growing better? Mr. Vatentine. In the last two years. Mr. Sreenerson. And before you came into office, of course, you had not any knowledge about the conditions? Mr. Varentine. No, sir. Mr. Srernerson. Now, I do not know whether you have been asked about the—I saw some newspaper accounts of some testimony in regard to a hospital at White Earth. Was there a report recom- mending the construction of a hospital ? Mr. Vatentinz. I think there was such a report. There was some hospital being used temporarily. _ Mr. Stzenerson. You never sent any estimate to the Appropria- tions Committee for a hospital at White Earth? Mr. Varentine. Not that I recall. There may have been one. I can ascertain. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2351 Mr. Steenerson. The records of the committee would show, would they not? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know whether the committee had been into that. . Mr. Sreenerson. Would they not have included that in the Book of Estimates? Mr. Vatentine. Yes—well, not necessarily; they might be in some general item, and that specific item would not appear. I can find from the records in our office. Mr. Sreenerson. You have no recollection of it? My. Vatentine. No, sir. I remember that the general question of a hospital was up, but in just what form I do not know; I do not know whether there was an appropriation, or whether it could be paid out of the tribai funds. ’ Mr. Sreenerson. You are somewhat familiar with the health conditions at Red Lake? Mr, Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. How are they up there? Mr. Vartentine. They are pretty bad. Mr. Sreenerson. I visited Red Lake a couple of years ago, and T thought every child in the Government school coughed as if he had consumption. That might have been simply a matter of a cold. Mr. Vatentine. I believe there is more or less truth in it. Mr. Sreenzrson. And the school of Father Fogarty, the Catholic priest there, seems to be almost as bad, so far as consumption is con- cerned. Do you recollect having had any request for additional medical help for Red Lake? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any; personally I do not know. Mr. Sreenerson. There has been no political influence brought to bear upon you to send any help to Red Lake? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you; the matter may have been called to my attention. Mr. Sreenerson. The Red Lake Indians, nearly every year, held a sort of mass meeting, or council, and sent word, either directly or through an agent or through a Congressman, asking for help, did they not, in the last few years? Mr. Vatentrne. Our records would show. Mr. Sreenerson. You do not remember? Mr. Vatentine. I do not remember. Mr. Sreenerson. You do not remember their appealing for help, especially a year ago this last fall, on account of the forest fires hav- ing destroyed all they had saved up in the shape of hay, and the lake was so low they got no fish, and they were almost starving; do you recall any condition of that kind being reported to you? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall it. “There are such a vast number of matters Mr. Sreenrrson. You do not recollect that the Congressman from that district wrote several letters on behalf of the Indians, asking help for the starving and hungry Indians? Mr. Vatentrne. I do not recall it. Mr. Sreenerson. Your correspondence would show? Mr. VatentTine. Yes; it can be looked up. 2352 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Sreenerson. I am not particular about it. You do not re- member that there was a very critical condition in Red Lake a year ago last fall? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall it; no, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you know anything about the reports which came from Luce Lake in regard to helping general conditions? Mr. Vatenrine. I can not give you anything personally. Mr. Srernerson. You do not know whether they are any worse or better than White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I could not tell you. Mr. Sreenrrson. You do not think they are any better at Red Lake? Mr. Vatentrine. Such a question would be handled by the medical division of my office, or the educational division, and taking the country over I might have particular knowledge of this place or that place and no knowledge about an equally bad condition somewhere else, as far as I personally was concerned. Mr. Sreenerson. You never looked into these reports from your medical officers to see whether or not they were worse off in one place or another? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I simply know that conditions all over the country—medical conditions all over the country—are very, very bad, and I have been trying to strengthen my medical work. Mr. Sreenerson. You have not heard that the Mille Lacs were in a very desperate condition? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I have no first-hand knowledge of recent reports other than those from White Earth. Mr. Sreenerson. You spoke about the work of these special agents in Oklahoma; that they had done a good service in disposing of land matters, so that there would not be so many lawsuits, as I understand. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and prevent the clouding of titles. Ht STeEeNERSoN. You regard the clouding of titles, then, as an evil? Mr. Vatentine. Decidedly. Mr. Sreenerson. And it prevents the development of the country? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the proper development. Mr. Steenerson. Yes; the proper development, because they do not care to build houses or break up and cultivate land if it is clouded in litigation ? Mr. Vatentine. Because there are two distinct questions; first, should the land be sold; and, second, if it should be sold the title should be good. Mr. Steenerson. Of course, the same evil affecting the clouding of titles would result in White Earth less than in other cases? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. * Mr. Sreenerson. And you have heard something about that during this discussion, I suppose, about the grievances of those whose titles are claimed to be clouded by the bringing of these 1,200 lawsuits, although they are not involved in a lawsuit? Mr. Vatentine. That is a claim I consider fully grounded. Mr. Srernerson. Assuming there are 4,000 allotments that have been sold by Indians, and 1,200 of them have been brought in litiga- tion by the Government? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2353 Mr. Sternerson. The other 2,800 would not, in your opinion, be clouded ? Mr. Vauentine. I could not know; they might be. Mr. Sreenerson. It might be that next week there might be two or three hundred suits brought. Mr. Vatentine. The point I wanted to make was this: There has been a great deal of blame placed on the Indian Office and on the Department of Justice for bringing these suits as if it was the bring- ing of the suits that clouded the titles. It was the passing of the act of 1906 and 1907. The Cuarrman. Then, of course the suit, the trial of a suit in equity, would not do the country any good— Mr. Steenerson. Except to determine who the owner was; and if they could agree on who the owner was that would dispense with the lawsuit. That is what your agents down there are doing, settling these cases without trial? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. The Cuairman. There are three questions in that. Do you want to have them read to you and answer all of them? Mr. Vaentine. I was disposing of them by the general statement that I do not really feel competent to answer that question. ‘The Cuarrman. Very well. Mr. Sreenerson. You are aware of these grievances that have come from the settlers and purchasers of land in White Earth, that have not been sued, claiming that they must have fee-simple patents in order to prevent their resting under a clouded title? Mr. Vauentine. Yes; and I believe that was followed—my recol- lection is that course was followed, that where there was evidently a perfectly good title passed in good faith, and no fraud, we have been as anxious as anyone to make that title appear clear, as we have to stand fast on those that were really clouded or contained fraud. That is, we have appreciated that it was just as important for bona fide purchasers, under proper conditions, to have their titles as that those who were not should not. Mr. Sreenerson. Your idea is that it would not be beneficial to me paiene to keep back the settlement of the country at White arth ? Mr. Vatentine. As a general proposition, under right conditions, I approve of the intermingling of whites and Indians in any country. Mr. Sreenrerson. And the intermingling there is favorable, be- cause these tracts are in alternate ages, as I understand it. Mr. Vatentine. I think so. There were two allotments—— Mr. Sreenerson. They are interspersed, the allotments that are owned by Indians, minor Indians that have still the restrictions upon them, with those that are owned by Indians who have the right to claim? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. Not entirely, are they? Mr. Sreenerson. No; but very largely. So that if farmers went on to develop these 2,800 acres that are not in a suit, it would really enhance the value of the land still remaining with the Indians, would it not? Mr. Varentine. Yes; as a general rule the improvement of land under proper conditions increases the value. 2354 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Sreenerson. It would be beneficial to the Indians to have ‘white people there in large numbers? Mr. Vatentine. If they were the right sort. Mr. Sreenerson. Foreigners? Mr. Vauentine. Real, genuine settlers are an advantage. Mr. Sreenerson. It is the vicious that are injurious, but the in- dustrious farmers would be beneficial ? Mr. Vaventine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. It would be beneficial in enabling them to build roads and establish schools, where the white and Indian children could go to school together ? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Sreenrerson. You do not beiieve in the old theory that the way to handle an Indian would be to have him entirely separated from civilized people? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. That apparently was the idea many years ago. Mr. Vatentine. Yes. sir. Mr. Sreewerson. And keeping him as if he were in a zoological park, separated from white people, and expect him to fit into a civil- ized country. You are convinced that if you can get him among the white people that he will be civilized, and the Indian problem will be solved sooner than otherwise? Mr. Vatentine. I will put it this way. I might have some basic conditions as to whether that condition was wholly right in the be- ginning. Taking what has happened, I think the only way out is a wise intermingling of land tenure and schools—all those conditions between whites and Indians. The Cuarrman. In that connection, was not the plan resorted to long ago of alternating sections—that is, as has been pursued with the railroad companies, giving a section to the railroad company and reserving the next to the Government, and so on? If that theory is sound, why did you not pursue that plan in your legislation? Mr. Srernerson. I am satisfied, Mr. Chairman, that that would have been a very wise thing to do; but, of course, this legislation first establishing this reservation was 45 years ago, and it was on that legislative theory that we were gradually approaching the solution of the Indian problem. I think the beginning of the new doctrine that the way to benefit the Indian was to have him intermingling with the whites, living upon a farm, where he could get employment and work for the farmer, was first advised by Mr. Leupp, when he was commissioner, in 1905, in his annual report. The Cuatrman. We have been approaching it so slowly that his property will probably be gone before we solve that problem, and the Indian himself will be dead. Mr. Sreenerson. There are just as many Indians now as there ever were? Mr. Vatentine. There are not as many full bloods. Mr. Sreenrrson. When we refer to Indians, we ‘speak of both mixed and full bloods. Mr. Vatentine. I think about two years ago the birth rate and the death rate were in such relation that there was a slight increase. Mr, Srzenerson. I understand from the census reports that there was a slight increase. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2355 The Cuairman. Is it your judgment that there never were more than 130,000 Indians in the United States? Mr. Steenrrson. About 250,000; not over 300,000. Mr. Vatentine. Everything, all told, there are about 327,000 In- dians. I think some of the best guesses, Mr. Chairman, say there were probably about half a million Indians in this country about the time Gclambes landed. The Cuarrman. Was that the time the greatest number of Indians was supposed to have been here? Did it increase after that or con- tinue to steadily diminish from that time on? : Mr. Vatentine. I think the number held pretty steady, until the inroads of the whites began to reduce the number. Mr. Burcu. Would you make any estimate of those who became Indians by adoption ? Mr. Vauentixe. I included those in the 327,000. Of course, the ered whites in the Five Civilized Tribes form a bigger bunch. Mr. Sreenerson. The Indians at White Earth, so far as you can judge, would be benefited by the settlement on their land of actual euneS who develop the land, cultivate the farms, and establish homes? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, you are touching a basic question of Indian policy there that I would like to develop a little before com- mitting myself to that proposition. It is not only a question of what is best as a theory, but what is best under a particular set of conditions. Mr. Sreenzrson. It affects this committee as considering legisla- tion relative to White Earth, when the Department of Justice is bringing suits in regard to the authority to convey, whether it would not aid the development of the country and relieve these people from any doubt about their titles—— Mr. VaLENTINE (interposing). I have no hesitation in saying—— Mr. Steenerson (continuing). Although they may have no ground. ~ Mr. Vauentine (continuing). That the right kind of settlers in that country, as they exist to-day, would probably be a desirable thing. i ME Sreenerson. You are not familiar with the kind of settlers that surround this part of the reservation in Becker, Norma, and other counties? ‘ : Mr. Vatentine. I have seen a little of it in my trips. Mr. Sreenersen. It is a most prosperous country ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. And they are prosperous farmers? Mr. VaLenTINe. Yes, sir. ; ; het Mr. Sreenerson. In regard to this hampering of your adminis- trative work, in fact, all your work, by these things you have de- scribed, the question was asked you about your being hampered by bills being introduced into Congress, and I believe you stated you were. Mr. Vatentrine. Yes, sir; to some extent. — ; Mr. Sreenerson. Is there any way to avoid that hampering? Mr. Varzentrne. The biggest and best’ way is by a wider and more educated public opinion about Indian affairs, which would assist 2356 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, one in devising right legislation, and prevent some of the unwise legislation. r. SrreNnERsON. You would not go so far then as to make any rule to prevent Members of Congress, representing a district where an Indian reservation was located, from introducing bills? Mr. VatentIne. Oh, no, sir. Mr. Steenerson. Would you not think it would be a good thing for them to submit all their bills before introduction, and then it would not hamper you? Mr. Vatentine. No. Of course, the hampering that I speak of is in putting a thing through, like the amendments in 1906 and 1907, against the wishes of the department. Mr. Sreenrrson. I do not think I have ever put through any bill against the wishes of the department. I think every bill I put through had a favorable recommendation. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, of course. What I meant was not that; that was not the hampering I was speaking of. The mere introduction of bills in Congress does not, in itself, hamper us. Mr. Sveznerson. You were asked about bills introduced, and the general description of the bills, as I understood it, referred to bills introduced by me. Mr. Vaventine. I do not know that they had you in mind. Of course, the introduction of any bills, if they are too numerous, on any given subject, has the effect, sometimes, of involving both the department and the Congressman in what might be called un- necessary thought on the subject. I should not propose to limit the introduction of bills. Mr. Streenerson. You would not propose that as a remedy for this hampering? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. You would not adopt the English or Canadian rule of requiring leave to introduce bills before they were intro- duced, unless they came from a Cabinet officer; you would not adopt that system ? : Mr. Vatentine. I have had so many troubles of my own that I have not thought of reorganizing that method. : Mr. Srrrnerson. In regard to the responsibility about legislation, when did you recognize it as a part of your duties as Commissioner of Indian Affairs? Mr. Varentinez. It has grown to be so through a general habit of submitting bills for report. Mr. Steenrrson. If they had not done that you would not assume to dictate legislation ? _Mr. Vatentine. We do not assume to dictate it now; we simply give our ideas. Mr, Srzenznson. Is this one of the functions that you have turned over in part to the Department of Justice, this legislative guardian- ship of this reservation, since these hearings began ? Mr. Vatentine. If the bills were introduced, and the Department of Justice were acting as our attorneys, before passing on thei oe we would certainly consult them as to what effect they would ave. Mr. Srrenerson. So that since the litigation was turned over to the Department of Justice, they are also jointly consulted ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2357 Mr. Vatentine. About legislation; yes, sir. Mr. Srzenerson. And you do not content yourself with simply appearing before committees when legislation is proposed, or writin, opinions about bills referred to you for report; you keep a genera lookout for legislation, so that Members of Congress may not do anything wrong in regard to legislation? Mr. Vatentine. I suppose it might be fair to say that it might be considered part of our duty to take an intelligent interest in matters affecting the country, as it is a part of the duty of all citizens. We do not seek to run a lobby or to suspect that Congressmen introduce unwise bills. Mr. Sreznrrson. That is a part of the result of your studies in regard to Indian affairs, that these Congressmen who represent dis- tricts where Indian reservations are located are not the proper or as good judges of proper Indian legislation as those who come from out- side districts? Mr. Vatentine. I would not be willing to commit myself to that. I have already stated some of the pros and cons of the situation. Mr. Sreenerson. In answer to the leading question asked you you stated in affirmative that they assumed more knowledge of Indian ea ane other people, and more knowledge than you thought ey had. Mr. Vatentine. No. I believe I said that they assumed that many times, and I do not say whether my judgment was correct or not. Mr. Sreenerson. You said they assumed superior knowledge. Mr. Vatentine. It is only natural that men coming from a par- ticular part of the country should know more about that particular part of the country than men who do not. Mr. Steenerson. You do not mean to be understood to say that this assumption of superior knowledge was unfounded ? Mr. Vatentine. I was not passing on that part of it. I did say that a person coming from another part of the country might have a little more advanced view. Mr. Srrenrerson. Your answer to those questions was intended to be complimentary to the Members who represent it in Indian reserva- tion districts, instead of to the contrary ? Mr. Vatentine. No; I should not say either complimentary or uncomplimentary; I was passing on a general proposition. The particular character of the legislation from any district might shoot the general proposition full of holes. Mr. Steenerson. If you were making up the Committee on Indian Affairs would you include these men who assume superior knowledge or would you exclude them? Mr. Vatzentine. I think that certainly a little less proportion of men coming completely from the Indian country would be rather desirable. Mr. Steenrerson. How many members are there on the committee? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. The Cuarrman. There are 21 on that committee, I think. - Mr. Burcu. There are 20 in the House, 11 and 9; and 9 and 6 in the Senate. ; The Cuarman. Twenty is the full committee of the House. Mr, Vatentine. Just along that same line, I think it would be a very difficult proposition to choose a Commissioner of Indian Affairs from the Indian country. 2358 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Sreenerson. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. It would be embarrassing to him, at least. Mr. Sreenerson. It would be better to have legislation enacted by people who were not interested ? } Mr. Vatentine. Well, as I say, I am not making any broad rules in that connection. I feel, at least, it would be better, since I am asked the question, that it would be better to have at least a larger percentage of members of the committee from disinterested districts. Mr. Srrrnerson. And you attribute the woes of the Indians that you have described largely to the action of Congress, to the laws—— Mr. Vatentine. In many cases very largely; yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. And is there any other cause? Mr. Vartentine. Weak administration. Mr. Sreenerson. Improper administration ? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Dishonest administration? Mr. VaLentiIne. Yes, sir. Mr, Strenrrson. Incompetent administration? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. I want you to understand I am not claiming that the administrative officers are any better than Con- gressmen. Mr. Sreenerson. Is it not a fact that in the nature of bureaucratic government they are not very efficient in the handling of property? Mr. Vatentine. I would not want to assent to that as a general proposition. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you think the United States Government has proved a good manager of our lands, for instance, or have they squandered them ? Mr. Vatentine. I should say they have squandered them. Mr. Steenrrson. They have squandered their own land to a greater degree than they have squandered the Indians’? Mr. Vatentine. It has not been accompanied—that is, the general prosperity for the people is a little bit more tenuous proposition than the squandering of definite tracts, following an inquiry. Mr. Srrenerson. There has been a great deal of fraud outside the Indian lands. Mr. Vatentine. I do not feel that our general land policy — The Cuairman. Gentlemen, will you not specify ? Mr. Srernrrson. About what? The Cuarrman. About those land frauds. What are they? Mr. Sreenzrson. Where an interested party secured large tracts for forest reserves, ostensibly to preserve the forests—conservation of natural resources. The Cyarrman. Who were they? Mr. Sternerson. Sometimes—there are none in my State. The Cuarrman. Anywhere? Mr. Srzenzrson. I have read of them in California and elsewhere, and there would be large private-owned tracts within that reserva- tion. Then Congress passed lieu lands for those privately owned lands, and those lieu-land rights were placed upon good, valuable Government land, where the timber has been cut off. The Crarrman. Do I understand that the locations were made there first, and then that these locations were deliberately included in forest reserves with a view to giving the owners of the locations the right to lieu-land selections elsewhere, more valuable? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2352 Mr. Burcu. That was so, and we had rejected those matters. The Cuarrman. I just wanted to know. Mr. Vatentine. Then, Mr. Chairman, there were some—I have in mind railroad frauds in connection with our public lands. Mr. Sreenerson. I assume, of course, it is a matter of common knowledge that the public domain of the United States has not been disposed of with any degree of economy of time. Mr. Vaentine. I was assuming that you were referring to the general advantages that would come under our conservation policy. Mr. Srzenerson. I was asking you if the woes of the Indians were not in part due to the necessary inefficiency of Government action ? Mr. Vauentine. Well, I do not think it is necessary, if we can get at certain fundamental principles. Mr. Srerenrerson. You have descrikedt the operations in your bu- reau, for instance. Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Sreenerson. And how action may be retarded by various means, inefficient subordinates, or by poor judgment of your supe- riors, even up to the President; it may delay things beyond the accredited time, and these are incidents to governmental administra- tion, I understand. Mr. Vauentine. I do not want to be held as criticizing my supe- riors, even up to the President. Mr. Sreenerson. Oh, no; but it is necessary to have superiors? Mr. Vatenrine. Yes, sir; absolutely. Mr. Sreenerson. You would not want to be an autocrat; you would not want to have absolute power. Mr. VatenTINe. Oh, no. The CHarrman. He would naturally like to be at the top; he might even like to be President. . VaLeNTINE. I would not like to be, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Steenerson. It is incident to governmental action to have this gradation of authority ? Mr. Vatenrine. That is true with private business, also. Mr. Sreunerson. In equally great degree? Mr. Vatenrine. I am beginning to think so. When I first entered the Government service, I thought the Government was worse than private business. I have been making some comparisons, and I am not so sure that private business is so terribly efficient. __ Mr. Sreenerson. You would not, of course, be willing to state whether the law or the administration of the law was more to blame for the condition of the Indians? ; Se oan! an Mr. Vatentine. Why, I have no hesitancy in giving my opinion. I think it is probably a pretty even break. Mr. Burcu. How is it specifically ? Mr. Vatentine. I anal say the law was the worst offender there. Mr. Sreenzrson. I would like to suspend now, and I will finish at the next session. . The CuarrMan. The next session will probably be on next Wednes- day afternoon. The committee will stand adjourned, subject to call, and Mr. George will give the interested parties notice. I think it will be Wednesday afternoon. Thereupon, at 4.45 o’clock p. m., the subcommittee adj ourned. CommitTer oN EXPENDITURES IN THE InrTerIoR DePaRTMENT, House or Representatives, Wednesday, March 20, 1912. * The committee met at 1:30 o’clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The following member of the committee was present: Mr. Henry George, jr. ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF MR. R. G. VALENTINE. Mr. Sreenerson. Have you the correspondence between the De- partment of Justice in regard to the taking over of the business, straightening out the White Earth matter there? Mr. Vatenttne. I have what Mr. Meritt has just handed me, which appears to be copies of the letters passing between the twa departments. Mr. Grorcr. Between the Department of Justice and the Interior Department ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarirman. This is a communication from Secretary Ballinger to the Attorney General. Mr. Vatentine. I think signed by Assistant Secretary Pierce, pos- sibly Mr. Ballinger signed one of them. The Cuarrman. It is an official document? Mr. Va.entine. Yes, sir; copies made in our office. Mr. Sreenerson. Have you examined them? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Steenerson. You do not know whether they contain any direc- tions as to legislative matters or not, do you? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I have not looked them over. Mr. Sreenerson. So far as I could judge from a hasty glance, they only relate to the proceedings of the court. Mr. Varentine. I think that is probably the case; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. I can find no reference here to the work of look- ing aatey legislation. You do not know of any such directions, do ou? Mr. Vatenrine. No, sir; I do not recall any such. Mr. Sreenerson. So whatever activities or agitation in regard to legislation are not based upon these, as far as you know? Mr. Vaventine. As far as I know; no, sir. 2360 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2361 he Pe At this point I will ask to have inserted Ex- ibit A. STEENERSON’s EXHIBIT A. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Washington, March 14, 1910. The ATTORNEY GENERAL. Sir: Allotments of lands in severalty were originally made to the Indians of White Earth Reservation, Minn., under the provisions of the act of January 14 1889 (25 Stat. L., 642), and under the act of April 28, 1904 (33 Stat. L., 539), additional allotments were made to the Indians of that reservation. Trust patents containing restrictions on the sale-and alienation of the lands so allotted for the period of 25 years have been issued in most cases. The fee to the lands so allotted and patented is in the Government, except in a few cases where patents in fee have been procured for the Indians. a act of June 21, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 325-353), contains the following para- graph: “That all restrictions as to sale, incumbrance, or taxation for allotments within the White Earth Reservation in the State of Minnesota now or hereafter held by adult mixed-blood Indians are hereby removed, and the trust deeds heretofore or hereafter executed by the department for such allotments are hereby declared to pass the title in fee simple, or such mixed bloods upon appli- cation shall be entitled to receive a patent in fee simple for such allotments; and as to full bloods, said restrictions shall be removed when the Secretary of the Interior is satisfied that said adult full-blood, Indians are competent to handle their own affairs, and in such cases the Secretary of the Interior shall issue to such Indian allottee a patent in fee simple upon application.” According to the joint report of E. B. Linnen and Special Indian Agent W. Ix. Moorehead, dated September 30, 1909, to the Secretary of the Interior end the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, copy herewith in duplicate, including section A-1 (full bloods), section A—2 (minors), section B (farm lands), and section C (timberlands), gross frauds have been committed by interested per- sons in procuring the removal of restrictions on full-blood allotments, in making applications for patents in fee, and in purchasing timber, timberlands, and farm lands from full bloods and minors of the White Earth Indian Reservation. The department invited your attention to these matters‘in letters of October 16 and November 6, 1909, respectively, and arranged for the institution of in- junction proceedings against the several timber purchasers, the purchasers of timberlands and their respective conveyees, or such as it might be deemed necessary to restrain them, their agents, servants, or other persons under their control, from cutting and removing timber from the various tracts classed as timberlands in the exhibits with letter of November 6, 1909, and from remoy- ing the timber from the allotments on which it had already been cut, and for such other action as might be necessary, if any, to protect the rights of the full bloods and minors to the timber and the timberlands involved. The department is advised that appropriate action has been taken to protect the rights of the Indians regarding their timber matters. The following papers are transmitted herewith: 1. A copy, in duplicate, of the census of the full bloods on the White Earth Indian Reservation, as far as determined by Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead. 2. A copy, in duplicate, of the list of minors who had sold their lands on that reservation, as found by Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead.. 3. An excerpt copy, in duplicate (one of which is certified), of the approved schedules of allotments to the Indians of the White Earth Reservation, which includes the names of full-blood allottees who have sold their allotted or in- herited lands, with certain data and information indorsed thereon procured from the files and records of the Indian Office and from the report of Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead. E 4. An excerpt copy, in duplicate (one of which is certified), of the schedules of allotments to the Indians of that reservation, which includes the names of minor allottees who have sold their lands, with certain data and information indorsed thereou, procured also from the files and records of the Indian Office and from the report of Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead. 5. An abstract, in duplicate, of the testimony procured by Mesrs. Linnen and Moorehead, showing full-blood adults of the reservation who have sold or mortgaged either their allotted or inherited lands or the timber thereon. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——54 2362 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 6. An abstract, in duplicate, of the testimony procured by Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead, showing the age of minors who sold or mortgaged their lands. or the timber thereon during their respective minorities. The original affidavits procured in the field by Messrs. Linnen and Moore- head regarding the blood of the allottees who have sold their allotments or the allotted lands inherited by them, respectively, are transmitted herewith. These affidavits show that the full bloods have sold or mortgaged the lands covered by about 850 allotments. These sales or mortgages included inherited lands as well as their own individual allotments classed as “ original” and ‘ addi- tional.” The affidavits are numbered consecutively, beginning with No. 1, and each is styled a case. All the papers relating to the same case bear the same number. Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead reported that 172 minors of the reservation have either sold or mortgaged their lands. These cases are numbered consecu- tively also, beginning with No. 1, and the papers relating to them have the Same nuluber, Attention is invited to some special affidavits by certain Indians, and to the report of Special Indian Agent W. K. Moorehead, dated May 3, 1909, regarding land and timber matters on the reservation, transmitted herewith. It is respectfully recommended that you cause the necessary proceedings to be instituted to set aside and cancel all sales, deeds, and mortgages of lands or timber in the White Earth Indian Reservation, Minn., made by either full bloods or minors, or, in other words, that you cause bills in equity to be filed in all instances where the facts and the law warrant such accion, looking to the reclamation of the lands irregularly or illegally procured by private parties and individual, company, or corporation from these Indians. It is respectfully recommended also that you instruct your representative in this matter to take appropriate action to cause an accounting for all timber irregularly or illegally cut and removed from any of the Indian lands by any person, company, or corporation, which should show the amount, location, and value of the timber, to the end that the individual allottees or heirs of deceased allottees may be compensated therefor. It may- be found necessary to ascertain further facts regarding the sales or mortgages of 118 of the cases of full bloods before instituting suits, and for convenient examination of these cases the Indian Office has arranged them on separate sheets and indicated the information thereon thought to be needed. These sheets are transmitted herewith in duplicate. They are grouped in one package and marked “AA.” ; Forty-four of the allottees reported by Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead as full bloods have obtained patents in fee covering their respective allotments. Certified copies of the respective applications for patents in fee, except in two instances, and the accompanying evidence, have been made and attached to the affidavits in the case involved. It is recommended also that if the facts and the law warrant such action, suits be instituted to cancel these fee patents and restore the lands to the Indians. When the papers relating to the excep- tions noted above shall have been located, the Indian Office will cause certified copies thereof to be made and forwarded to you through the department. The department will be pleased to have you instruct your representative to look into the criminal phase of the timber cases involved and present them to oe Federal grand jury for indictment if the law and the facts justify such action. For witnesses as to conspiracy on the part of the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co., or Mr. Nichols thereof, Ben Fairbanks, Gus Beaulieu, and Simon Michelet under the provisions of section 5440, Revised Statutes of the United States, attention is invited to the affidavits Nos. 158, 270, 272, 277, 295, 308, 319, 321, 332, 338, 837, 838, 342, 348, 359, 392, 400, 401, 425, 440, 461, 469, 470, 474, and 475. Section 5440, Revised Statutes, is as follows: ‘ “Tf two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States or to defraud the United States in any manner or for any pur- pose, and one or more of such parties do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy all the parties to such conspiracy shall be liable to a penalty of not more than $10,000, or to imprisonment for not more than two years or to both fine and imprisonment in the discretion of the court.” In case you direct that suit be instituted as recommended, and on your advice to this department to that effect, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs will direct the superintendent of the White Earth Indian School, White Earth, Minn., to render your representative such assistance in the matter as the latter may desire. Very respectfully, R. A. BALLInGER, Secretary. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2363 DEPARTMENT OF THE INTEBIOR, Washington, October 16, 1909. The ATTORNEY GENERAL. Sir: The act of June 21, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 325-353), contains the following paragraph: “That all restrictions as to sale, incumbrance, or taxation for allotments witiin the White Earth Reservation in the State of Minnesota, now or hereafter held by adult mixed-blood Indians, are hereby removed, and the trust deeds heretofore or hereafter executed by the department for such allotments are hereby declared to pass the title in fee simple, or such mixed bloods, upon appli- cation, shall be entitled to receive a patent in fee simple for such allotments; and as to full bloods, said restrictions shall be removed when the Secretary of the Interior is satisfied that said adult full-blood Indians are competent tu handle their own affairs, and in such case the Secretary of the Interior shall issue to such Indian allottee a patent in fee simple upon application.” Gross frauds have been committed by interested persons in procuring the removal of restrictions on full-blood allotments and in making applications for patents in fee simple therefor. Full-blood Indians, with the assistance of unprincipled men and under the guise of being mixed bloods, have sold their lands, which have been denuded, in many cases, of the valuable timber thereon. There seems to have been a concerted action on the part of buyers to establish every full-blood Indian who had valnable lands or timber as a mixed blood. This was done by fraud and misrepresentation, by false and forged affidavits, on which to base sales or applications for patents in fee. Persons have not only bought lands and timber on the White Earth Reserva- tion from the full bloods without authority of law, but they have procured deeds and mortgages on the lands allotted to minors with a full knowledge of the fact at they were committing frauds in so doing. These land buyers were not content with purchasing the lands under the law cited of the adult mixed bloods, but in numerous cases they have pur- chased, as indicated above, the lands of full bloods and of minors with full knowledge of the fraud they were perpetrating. Fully 90 per cent of the lands allotted to full bloods has been sold or mort- gaged and fully 80 per cent of the entire acreage embraced in the White Earth Indian Reservation, Minn., has passed into the hands of private owners. Injunction suits sheuld be promptly instituted to restrain the Juimber com- panies and others from cutting and removing any further timber from these fnll-blood and minor allotments, and suit should be promptly instituted also to set aside all deeds for and mortgages on the lands and timber belonging to these full bloods and minors and to put them in possession thereof. Suits should also be brought to recover in damages the value of the timber which has already been cut and removed from the lands sold by full bloods or minors. The persons shown to be guilty of conspiracy to defraud the United States, according to evidence transmitted to the department by E. B. Linnen, United States Indian inspector, and Warren K. Moorehead, United States special Indian agent, should be indicted and prosecuted. It is respectfully recommended that you designate or appoint, at the earliest practicable date, a special United States attorney to take up and prosecute these cases on the White Earth Reservation, and it is requested that the at- torney appointed or detailed for this purpose, be instructed to call at the Indian Office for the purpose of conferring with the officials thereof regarding the matter under consideration. The Indian Office believes that this matter is so serious that the conference should be held within the next 48 hours. I shall be pleased to be advised of your action. Very respectfully, FRANK PIERCE, First Assistant Secretary. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Washington, November 6, 1909. The ATTORNEY GENERAL. = Sir: Allotments of lands in severalty were originally made to the Indians of the White Earth Reservation, Minn., under the provisions of the act of January 14, 1889 (25 Stat. L., 642), and, under the act of April 28, 1904 (35 Stat. L., 539), additional allotments were made to the Indians of that reservation. 2364 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Trust patents, containing restrictions on the sale and alienation of the lands go allotted for the period of 25 years, have, in most cases, been issued. The fee to the lands so allotted and patented was in the Government. The act of June 21, 1906 (84 Stat. L., 325-853), contains the following para- raph: " “That all restrictions as to sale, incumbrance on taxation for allotments within the White Earth Reservation, in the State of Minnesota, now or here- after held by adult mixed-blood Indians, are hereby removed and the trust deeds heretofore or hereafter executed by the department for such allotments are hereby declared to pass the title in fee simple, or such mixed bloods, upon ap- plication, shall be entitled to receive a patent in fee simple for such allotments, and, as to full bloods, said restrictions shall be removed when the Secretary of the Interior is satisfied that said adult full-blood Indians are competent to handle their own affairs, and in such case the Secretary of the Interior shall issue to such Indian allottee a patent in fee simple upon application.” Full-blood Indians, with the assistance of unprincipled men and under the guise of being mixed bloods, have sold their lands, which have been denuded, in many cases, of the valuable timber thereon. There seems to have been a con- certed action on the part of buyers to establish every full-blood Indian who had valuable lands or timber as a mixed blood. This was done by fraud and mis- representation, by false and forged affidavits on which to base sales or applica- tions for patents in fee. Persons have not only bought lands and timber on the White Earth Reserva- tion from the full bloods without authority of law, but they have procured deeds and mortgages on the lands allotted to minors, with a full knowledge of the fact that they were committing frauds in so doing. These land buyers were not content with purchasing the lands of the «dult mixed bloods under the law cited, but in numerous cases they have purchased, as indicated above, the lands of full bloods and of minors with full knowledge of the fraud they were perpetrating. : Fully 90 per cent of the lands allotted to full bloods has been s>ld or mort- gaged, and fully 80 per cent of the entire acreage embraced in the White Harth Indian Reservation, Minn, has passed into the hands of private owners. There is transmitted herewith a list in duplicate giving a description by legal subdivisions—section, township, and range—of the lands of full bloods scold or mortgaged, and showing the character of the lands so sold or mortgaged—that is, whether pine or farm lands—prepared and submitted to the department on September 30, 1909, by United States Indian Inspector BH. B. Linnen and Special United States Indian Agent Warren K. Moorehead, who were designated for that purpose. There is transmitted also a copy in duplicate of the abstract of lands sold by minors on the White Earth Reservation, prepared by Messrs. Linnen and Moore- head, showing the persons or lumber companies who have bought lands from them. ' For your further information and use there are transmitted township plats in duplicate, which show: : 1. In green shading, the pine allotments sold by adult full-blood Chippewa ndians; 2. By black-pencil check marks, the allotments to minors in the timber belt, as indicated upon the agency plats; and 3. In red shading, the pine allotments of minors that have been sold. the originals of which were prepared and submitted to the department by Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead. Copies of the following reports in duplicate are inclosed for your information and use: 1. Report of Inspector Linnen, dated September 30, 1909, made in conformity with departmental instructions of July 1, 1909. 2. Joint report in duplicate of Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead regarding the situation at White Earth, grouped under these headings and sections: Section A-I, full bloods; section A-2, minors; section B, farm lands; section C, timber- Jands. accompanied hy a copy in duplicate of a letter from A. B. Patterson, chief office of Iederal cooperation, Forest Service, giving an opinion in the matter of timber on the allotments of full bloods and minors on the White Earth Reservation. . It is respectfully recommended that you institute, or cause to be instituted, injunction proceedings against the several purchasers and their respective conveyees, or such of them as may be deemed necessary, to restrain them, their WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2365 agents, servants, or other persons under their control, from cutting and remoy- ing the timber from the various tracts classed as timberlands in the exhibits herewith, and from removing the timber from the allotments on which it has already been cut, and that the court be asked to take such other action as may be necessary, if any, to protect the rights.of the full bloods and minors to the timber and the lands involved. The papers in the case show that M. J. Kolb, of Ogema; L. S. Waller, of Wauban; E. G. Holmes, of Detroit; A. F. Annundsen, of Detroit; and attorneys W. B. Carmen and P. S. Converse, both of Detroit, all of Minnesota ; the Nichols- Chisholm Lumber Co. and the Park Rapids Lumber Co., of that State, have purchased most of the lands and timber from the full bloods and minors, and that Fred Sanders, Gus H. Beaulieu, Ben Fairbanks, and John VW. Carl have. aided these persons and corporations in the illegal purchases. The department will submit to you at as early a date as possible a certified copy of the census of the full bloods on the White Earth Reservation, and a certified copy of a list of the minors who have sold lands on the reservation, accompanied by an excerpt certified copy of the schedule of approved allotments to the Indians with notations thereon as to saJes of timber and land and other useful data, together with an abstract of the testimony procured by Messrs. Linnen and Moorehead showing the full-blood adults of the reservation and the age of the minors who have sold their lands and timber thereon. With the information to be contained in the next communication from the department regarding this matter, you will be able to determine the cases in which it will be necessary to institute suits to set aside fraudulent deeds or mortgages executed by either full bloods or minors, to eject purchasers or their conreyees from the lands involved, and put the Indian claimants in possession thereof, and to ask for an accounting of the timber which has been cut and removed from the allotments and an estimate or valuation of the standing timber which has not yet been cut from the full-blood and minor allotments which have been sold. . In this connection, attention is invited to department letter, dated October 16, 1909, regarding the situation at White Earth Minn., wherein it was re- quested that a representative of the Department of Justice be detailed to con- fer with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in order to take the necessary steps to protect the rights of these Indians. In pursuance of this reqwest, Mr. Lewis, of your department, first called and gave instructions as to the method of procedure in assembling and collating the data and. information necessary to enable the Department of Justice to institute the proper actions. It is understood that the Department of Justice also sent Mr. Burch to White Earth and to consult the United States district attorney there with a view to deter- mine the most effective and immediate relief. Mr. Knaebel and Mr. Burch. of your department, called at the Indian Office November 4, 1909, and there was had an extended conference regarding the situation. They requested that. in addition to preparing the data and information considered by Mr. Lewis to be necessary for the final actions, there be transmitted with the least delay the papers hereinbefore referred to, in order that the Department of Justice might ask immediately injunctive relief to prevent the further cutting of timber nnd to prevent the removal of the timber already eut, but which still remains on the allotments. : | The department will be pleased to be advised of your action and to give any further information in its possession, or render any assistance that it can, in order to enable your department to secure without unnecessary delay the de- sired relief. Very respectfully, FRANK PIERCE, First Assistant Secretary. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Washington, December 27, 1909. The ATTORNEY GENERAL. Sir: On November 6, 1909, this department addressed a letter to you regard- ing certain gross frauds alleged to have been perpetrated in procuring convey- ances from full-blood and minor Chippewa Indians on the White Earth Indian Reservation, Minn., recommended certain proceedings, and transmitted for your use and information in connection with certain other papers, township plats howing the following: : eta gree shading the pine allotments sold by adult full-blood Chippewa Indians ; 2366 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2. By black pencil check marks the allotments of miuors in the timber belt, as indicated upon the White Earth Indian Agency plats; and 3. In red shading the pine allotments of minors that had been sold, the origi- nals of which were prepared and submitted to this department by Inspector EB. B. Linnen and Special Indian Agent W. K. Moorehead. The Indian Office has checked up the timber and timberlands sold by full- blood Indians of that reservation, and it is found from this examination and an examination of the affidavits of full bloods that timber and timber tracts in addition to those indicated upon the plats referred to have been sold by Indians of this class. A list, in duplicate, of the additional timber and timberlands sold bas been prepared and is transmitted herewith for consideration in connection with the plats mentioned. I shall be pleased to have you acknowledge receipt of this. Very respectfully, ———,, Secretary. Mr. Sreenrrson. I noticed in the testimony you gave on your di- rect examination that you referred to the liquor on White Earth Reservation. Are there still saloons on the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know about that, although my general information is that since the department has been more or less held up by the various court decrees, and one or two other things that have stopped our Federal operations there, the liquor evil has returned to the reservation in very great force. Mr. Sreenerson. It was at its height when you assumed duties as commissioner ? Mr. Vatenrine. It was unspeakably bad. I do not know whether it was at its climax or not. . fs Mr. Sreenerson. There were open saloons running at all the small villages, were there not? rag ee That is my understanding; yes, sir. Mr. Sreewerson. That is the report you got from the field ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Why was that; why was liquor allowed on the reservation at all? Mr. Vauentine. I assume that our special liquor force had not been able to get around. I do not know when they first went into Minnesota. Mr. Sreenerson. You knew that the law forbade.the introduction of liquor on the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. What time are you referring to, sir? Mr. Sreewerson. At all times. Mr. Vatentine. Oh, yes. Mr. Sreenrrson. And it was only a question of police force enough to keep it out? Mr. Vatenrine. Very largely; and, of course, activity on the part of the State officials in regard to the sale of liquor to Indians under the laws of Minnesota. Mr. Srernerson. But it could not be sold on the reservation if it was excluded from the reservation. Mr. Vatentinz. One of the greatest evils were the saloons sur- rounding the reservation, where the laws of the State of Minnesota were apparently constantly broken. The Cuatrman. That would depend whether the exclusion was a paper exclusion or one entirely effective? Mr. Sreenrrson. Very true; it depends entirely on the faithfulness with which the laws were executed. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2367 Mr, Vatentinz. What I wanted to call your attention to is, it is very Important not only to have the Federal laws but the State laws enforced in connection with White Earth. Mr. Srrenerson. But if the liquor were kept entirely off the reser- vation there could not be any liquor disposed of there; there would be nothing to dispose of. Mr. Vatentrnz. Not on the reservation; no. Mr. Sreenerson. And the small towns along the Soo Road, that passes right through the reservation, as I understand, all ran wide- open saloons in 1909. Mr. Vatentine. That is my understanding; everything was wide open then. Mr. Sreenzrson. There was no attempt to exclude it? Mr. Vatenrne. I think some attempt; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. What was it? Mr. Vatentrng. I could not tell you, but our records will show. I ge our special officers were in there more or less. r, Steenerson. Did not those villages openly license saloons un- der village authority ? Mr. Vatentine. I know that Mahnomen, apparently, had some fixed custom. Mr. Sreenerson. And if the liquor was not excluded from the reservation it was because of inability to enforce that law forbidding the introduction of liquor? Mr. Vatentine. Either inability or incapacity of the force to tackle such a big problem. Pardon me, I am speaking, of course, of the date that I understood you to mention, about 1909. We made very vigorous attempts, which ought to be considered in connection with this, and which are outlined in our various annual reports quite at length. I call your attention particularly to my last report, which gives a history of the way in which Federal control was cut out of Minnesota. Mr. Sreenerson. That explains the situation in regard to these ceded lands? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. They were still, by treaty provision, made subject to the nonintercourse act. Mr. Varentine. Yes. Mr. Sreenrrson. By the nonintercourse act, you understand, of course, the law which has been on the statute books for 50 or 60 years or more, which forbids absolutely the introduction of liquor into any Indian country? Mr. Vatentine. I assume that is the reference. The Cuarmman. How long a statute is that? Mr. Steenerson. It is a brief statute. } The Cuamman. I really think we ought to insert that in the record. Mr. Sreenerson. I will give it to the reporter. Sec. 20. And be it further enacted, That if any person shall sell, exchange, or give, barter,-or dispose of any spirituous liquor or wine to an Indian (in the Indian country), such person shall forfeit and pay the sum of five thousand dol- lars; and if any person shall introduce, or attempt to introduce, any spirituous liquor or wine into the Indian country, except such supplies as shall be neces- sary for the officers of the United States and troops of the service, under the direction of the War Department, such person shall forfeit and pay a sum not 2368 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. exceeding three hundred dollars; and if any superintendent of Indian affairs, Indian agent, or subagent, or commanding officer of a military post has: reason to suspect or is informed that any white person or Indian is about to introduce, or has introduced, any spirituous liquor or wine into the Indian country, in violation of the provisions of this section, it shall be lawful for such superin- tendent, Indian agent, or subagent, or military officer, agreeably to such regu- lations as may be established by the President of the United States, to cause the boats, stores, packages, and places of disposal of such person to be searched, and if any such spirituous Jiquor or wine is found, the goods, boats, packages, and peltries of such persons shall be seized and delivered to the proper officer, and shall be proceeded against by libel in the proper court, und forfeited, one- half to the use of the informer, and the other half to the uses of the United States; and if such person is . trader, his license shall be revoked and his bond put in suit. And it shall moreover be lawful for any person in the service of the United States or for any Indian to take and destroy any ardent spirits or wine found in the Indian country, excepting military supplies as mentioned in this section. The Cuarrman. It has been unchanged for many years, except that I believe an attempt was made, which was not successful, to legislate with reference to adjoining territory outside the reserva- tion. Mr. Srrenerson. That is a big question. JI would take some time. Mr. Varentine. Of course, the main basis of our fight against liquor in Minnesota was based on the old treaties with the Indians, beginning back in 1825. Mr. Srrenerson. Excuse me, that attempt was based on the non- intercourse act, because the treaty said that the law against the in- troduction of liquor should remain in force in ceded territory. The Cuairman. We tried, while we were in Minnesota, to get some reasonable explanation as to why liquor was openly sold in the railroad towns on the reservation, but I confess we got no fairly good explanation of it. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, it is absolutely illegal, not only to sell it but to have it there at all. The Cuairman. An attempt was made to explain, I think by Mr. Dennis, but I will not be certain—to explain that the railroad com- pany, when it built through there, acquired certain rights and town- site privileges, which the citizens in the village claimed gave them the right to sell liquor. Mr. Steenrrson. The claim was utterly untenable. Mr. Vatentine. We hold that is absolutely untenable. The Cuairman. I could not see how in thé world it could be sound or tenable. There is evidence in the record, taken out there, of officers going to the saloons of Calloway and other points and taking the liquor and knocking in the heads of the barrels and letting it run out; they had a good deal of trouble. Mr. Srzenerson. Is there anything more? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I just wanted to call attention to the various reports. - Mr. Srrenrrson. I want to refer to the commission bill introduced in the last Congress. “That was a bill to create a commission to pass upon the blood status of the Indians on the White Earth Reserva- tion and make two rules, one to include the enfranchised mixed bloods, that were entitled to convey their land, and another one to embrace those that were not. That was the general object of it, as I understand. Mr. Vatentine. That is my rerollection of it; yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 4369 Mr. Sreenerson. I believe that bill passed the Senate. Mr. Vauentine. I do not recall. Mr. Sreenerson. You know that it was allowed to die in the House Committee on Indian Affairs? Mr. Varentine. I do not know that; but I know it never was passed. Mr..Sreenerson. Well, you know it never was reported from the Committee on Indian Affairs, do you not? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you that offhand. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you recall having any conferences with the representatives of the commercial clubs at Detroit and surrounding country there, Mr. Johnston and Mr. Canfield and myself, about it. Mr. Vatentine. I think I recall your being in my office with those gentlemen, if I recall their names. Mr. Sreenerson. And Mr. C. N. Johnston. Mr. Vauentine. I think so; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you remember whether there was any under- standing in regard to that bill arrived at in those conferences? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. Mr. Sreenrrson. You do not remember that? Mr. Vatentine. I remember the conferences, but I would not be able to recall just what happened. ' . Mr. Sreenerson. Do you not remember I told you the bill would be dropped and you did not need to appear at any hearing, that it would be abandoned? | 3s Mr. VatentineE. I rather think T recall your telling me that. Mr. Sreenrrson. Do you not believe that was the reason why the bill was not pressed any further? Mr. Vatentine. That would seem to be a very good reason. Mr. Sreenerson. Yes; a sufficient reason. And do you remember whether there was any understanding at that time in regard to issu- ‘ing patents to these allotments that had been conveyed but were not involved in any lawsuit? 3 Mr. Vauentine. I think I took the position to you then, if I recall correctly, as I have taken it all along, that we would submit any requests of the parties to the officials of the Department of Justice, and if they passed it as appearing to be free from fraud, we would recommend a patent issue on that particular plan. Mr. Sreenerson. I think Mr. Canfield and Mr. Johnston had con- ferred also with the Department of Justice, as I recollect. Mr. Vauentine. I think they did. I am not sure. Mr. Sreenrrson. The record has not been printed yet, but I have heard indirectly that Mr. Johnston has testified in regard to an under- standing, either with the Interior Department or with the Depart- ment of Justice, that if the commission bill was dropped that there would be patents issued on these undisputed — Mr. Vatentrine (interposing). I do not know that one was made on the condition of the other, but I remember the two points, and I remember, as I say, the view that I have taken all along, that just as we should use every effort to catch fraudulent transfers, so we should do everything we could to make title good where the whole thing was bona fide. : Mr. Steenerson. Are you aware of the fact that they claim up there that understanding has not been carried out, and they have 2370 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. received hardly any patents, and that they have requested the intro- duction of a bill to expedite the issue of patents on these allotments that have been sold and are not involved in any lawsuit? Mr. Vatentine. This is the first I have heard of that. Mr. Srzrenrrson. You have not heard of that bill? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. septal ; Mr. Sreenrrson. Now, what was your purpose in discussing that commission bill which was dead—died in the last session, and has not been received before this committee? I noticed your attorneys have long references to it, and you have mentioned it in your testimony— what is the object ? Mr. Vatentine. Of discussing that bill? Mr. Sreenerson. Yes. Mr. Varentine. I do not remember. You mean in my testimony the other day? Mr, Sreenerson. Yes; or in your attorney’s statement. Mr. Varentine. I do not know quite what you mean by my attor- ney’s statement, because I have no attorney. Mr. Sreenerson. I thought you said the Department of Justice was acting through attorney. Mr. Vatentine. Oh, you mean the acting attorney for the Inte- rior Department? Yes. / Mr. Steenrrson. You have seen this No. 7, that Burch statement, so called ? Mr. Vatentine. I have not seen it; no, sir. Mr. Sternerson. You have not read it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Srernrrson. I suppose in the preparation of these facts the Department of Justice has had full access to the records of your office? ’ Mr. Vatentine. Any time they wanted it; yes, sir. Mr. Strrnerson. And you have aided them all you could? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Srrenrrson. And you have resolved to bring out all the docu- mentary evidence that relates to any particular transaction ? Mr. Vatentine. Anything that the committee has asked for we thought would throw light on the situation. Mr. Steenerson. Or the attorneys asked for? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Georcr. By the attorneys, you mean Judge Burch and asso- ciates with him in the Department of Justice? Mr. Sreenerson. Certainly; yes. And you can not give any ex- planation of the reason for discussing that commission bill before this committee? Mr. Vatentinz. You see I am here simply in my personal capacity, Mr. Steenerson, to tell the committee anything I know or recall, but I can not carry all the documents in my head. Mr. Sreenerson. I think you mentioned that commission bill as one of the bills that had hampered the administration of your office? Mr. Vaentine. I very likely did, because its introduction in j Congress filled us with fear that the study we were making, what we might call the administrative lists we were making, would be super- seded and the legislative lists be made under the terms of that bill, if it became law. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2371 Mr. Sreenrerson. There were some other documents I asked for, were there not? Mr. Vatentine. You wanted to get the unexpended balances in our general health fund. I was asking Mr. Meritt just before the hearing began whether he had them here to-day. Mr. Mezrirr. We have not those figures here; we will get them to-morrow. Mr. Srernerson. I think I have them, perhaps. I will now go on to another subject. I call your attention to the heading “ Legisla- tion of 1904,” page 246 of these first bound volumes of the hearings, and I will read this extract: A rider was put on the Indian appropriation bill, by amendment offered by Senator Clapp, of Minnesota, providing in substance that timber on allotments theretofore made, or that might thereafier be made, might be sold. Now, the timberland therctofore allotted, if any, was inconsequential in extent. ‘This rider was introduced January 13, 1904. On January 12, 1904, Representative Steenerson, of Minnesota, introduced a bill providing for additional allotments under which the timberlands on the White Earth Reservation were allotted.. The act containing the rider was approved April 21, 1904, and the Steenerson Act, April 28, 1904. The one legislative measure provided what should be done with the timber when it should fall into the hands of the Indians, and the other provided that the timber should fall into the Indians’ hands, and the two were introduced one day apart and became law one week apart. ai you speak about that rider of 1904 in your direct examina- tion? > Mr. Vatentine. Not to my recollection, sir. Mr. Steenerson. Well, I am quite sure you were asked about it. Mr. Vatentine. I was being asked about the amendments of 1906 and 1907. . Mr. Steenrrson. Well, we will not dispute about that. Mr. Vatenrine. It may be. Mr. Sreenerson. Now, further on in the hearings, at Minneapolis, I think, this same subject was referred to in the testimony, and on page 75 of No. 10, the law that was referred to by Mr. Burch, in examining you directly, as the rider of 1904 is printed. You say you have forgotten you were asked about that rider in your direct examination ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; I did not recall I was asked about that one. ‘ Mr. Sreenerson. Of course we could easily refer to it here. You were asked about it, I am assured of that. Mr. Vatentine. I am not denying it. I simply have no recollec- tion of Mr. Burch asking me about that particular one. Mr. Streenerson. I will read this rider, so called. The reference to it is Thirty-third Statute at Large, 209, 210—Disposal of timber under allotments of Indians: The Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota to whom allotments have been or shall hereafter be made and trust or other patents containing restric- tions upon alienation issued or shall be issued therefor are, with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, hereby authorized to dispose of the timber on their respective allotments. Timber on the allotments of minors may likewise be so sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent or other officer in charge in the order named, and the Secretary of the Interior shall make such regulations for the disposi- tion of proceeds of such sales a8 may be necessary to protect the interests of said Indians, including such minors. ; Now, that is the law upon which the proposal referred to as a foundation for the Herrick and other bids was made, was it not? 2372 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, sir. You see, you are asking about something that was away before my time and before I entered the service. Mr. Sreenrrson. I thought you were present here when Mr. Nichols and Mr. Powell were examined. s Mr. Vatentine. I was not present when Mr. Nichols testified, but T heard Mr. Powell’s testimony. Mr. Sreenerson. You are not sufficiently familiar with the history of proceedings in your office to say whether that was the authority for the Herrick bid or not, are you? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I have had too much to do since I took charge of the office to go back into those things. Mr. Sreenerson. You observe here that this relates to the Chip- pewa Indians of the whole of Minnesota and not to the White Earth alone, do you not? Mr. Vatentine. I so understood you to read it. Mr. Steenerson. You may examine it. * Mr. Varentrnz. I am perfectly willing to take your word for it, sir. Mr. Gzorcg. I did not quite catch that. Mr. Sreenerson. It relates to the Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota and is not confined to the White Earth Indians, so it appears. It appears to relate to all the Indian reservations in Min- nesota, Mr. Vatentine. Yes; to the Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota. Mr. Srepnerson. And you observe there that it has the words “with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe.” Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. That is the usual language in legislation in re- gard to disposal of Indian property, is it not? . Mr. Vatentine. I judge so. That sounds very natural. Mr. Srzenrrson. Yes; it occurs in a great many of the statutes. Mr. Varentine. I have seen it a good many times; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Now, the attorney in presenting the record of the date at which this law was passed said that he challenged the atten- tion of the committee to the proximity in date with which these bills or proposed laws were introduced, and he refers to the Congressional Record for January 18, 1904, and that the two acts were approved about the same time. On page 78 I will read this: I desire now to challenge the attention of the committee to the range of the Clapp rider and the appropriation bill of 1904 which I have just alluded to, and to this fact: This and other documents just read show that pine had be- fore that time been allotted prior to the passage of the rider, and that rider refers to the pine heretofore allotted or that may hereafter be allotted. That which may hereafter be allotted would be under the Steenerson Act, which is practically contemporaneous with the rider. My idea of challenging the atten- tion of the committee to the point that no pine so far had been allotted to the Indians at all, yet the pine is referred to in that rider, but it was provided as heretofore or may hereafter be allotted and was introduced in the Steenerson bill, wkich was practically contemporaneous with the rider. I think we have now fulfilled the purpose of our subheading of “Legislation of 1904,” as con- tained on page 246 of the statement made by me, and now we come to the head- ing. on page 246, of ‘“‘The additional allotments under the Steenerson Act.” WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2373 In your work of aiding the attorneys in preparing for this inves- tigation—preparing this statement—did you give them the docu- ments relevant to this bill in your office? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you, sir. You see, this is not a ee I handle personally. I simply gave them everything they wanted. Mr. Steenerson. You had no object in withholding from this committee the documents in your office that relate to the origin of this legislation, had you? Mr. Vatentine. None whatever at all. Mr. Sreenerson. But they have been left out, as I will call your attention to later on, and if it should turn out that instead of origin- ating, as therein indicated that they originated in your office, it would put a different feature on the legislation, would it not? Mr. Vatentine. You mean if the legislation—— Mr. Sreenerson. Jt would put a different feature on the legisla- tion, would it not? Mr. Vatentine. What do you refer to as originating? Mr. Srernxerson. The rider that I have just spoken about, the law that I have just read to you about disposal of timber on the allot- ments. Mr. Vatentine. If it originated in our office, you say it would put a different face on it? Mr. Srernerson. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. Of course, I do not quite follow you, because you are dealing with matters of which I have no personal knowledge. Mr. Sreenerson. I will make myself clear if I can; I do Sol nae asI can. As I understood the evidence you gave in your direct exam- ination, it tended to show that legislation originating with Members who had the districts in which Indian reservations were located was likely to be influenced by big business, such as lumber interests. Mr. Vatentine. I was stating general methods of procedure. On the other hand, of course, a great deal of legislation is initiated in the Indian Office and in the department, and there is no more likeli- hood— Mr. Sreenerson (interposing). Upon this record, which has been offered by the attorney for your office, there is no reference to any documents in your office, the reference is to the Congressional Record, where it appeared these two bills, the additional-allotment bill and the rider, providing for sale of timber on the allotments, originated a few days apart and were passed nearly contemporaneous and it was left there. Now, you have never taken the trouble to look into the records of your office of 1904 to see if the origin of this rider can be traced to other than lumber-company influences, or whether the initiative was in your office. Tae Mr. Vatentrine. I made no study of the question in any way. Mr. Sternerson. You can see, can you not, that with the insinua- tion, if I may so term it, of course good naturedly, that Members of Congress who represent districts where Indian reservations are, are likely to have pressure brought to bear on them from big business, as you termed it, that,"leaving that record alone, the conclusion might easily be drawn by this committee that this originated with Senator Clapp on the 12th day of January, and that therefore the conclusion 9374 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, might easily be drawn that it was the result of the influence of big business upon Senator Clapp. ; Mr. Vatentine. Well, taking up your use of.the word, Mr. Steenerson, of the word “ insinuation ” in the same good-natured sense you have used it, I think it is only fair to say that my general state- ment in the first place applied no more to legislative men than it did to administrative men, and did not apply to any one person particularly, and I had no thought in my mind of attributing any motives or insinuating anything. I was simply stating what is the fact—that influences of all kinds, without differentiating whether they were proper or improper, are brought to bear on all of us, administrators and legislators alike. Mr. Sreenerson. You know, of course, as a man of common sense, that a half truth is the most dangerous lie that can be put forth, because you can not dispute the half truth, but, by putting in the whole truth, it changes its significance entirely. Mr. Varentine. In that sense, of course, a half truth is not a truth. Mr. Sreznerson. Now, this record here does not seem to refer to anything else as to the origin of this rider of 1904, except to the Congressional Record, when, as a matter of fact, as I will show you in a few minutes, the records of your office, contemporaneous with that proposition, would throw a great deal of light upon it. Mr. Vatentine. Of course, I know nothing as to how this record was made up. Mr. Srrenerson. And you had no concern as to setting this com- mittee right and getting them to draw a just conclusion about the -origin of this bill? Mr. Vatentine. I did not know the committee was by any possi- bility in the wrong. You see perhaps you do not quite understand. You are asking me about a record of which I had no knowledge as to how it was made up and about testimony I have not heard or seen, so I do not know how I can help you out. * Mr. Steenerson. I presume you are of course somewhat familiar with this investigation, inasmuch as you said these attorneys were your attorneys and acting as attorneys for your bureau in this investigation. Mr. Vatrentine. I used that term in a general sense, that the De- partment of Justice acted as attorneys for the Interior Department, but I have no personal interest. Mr. Srrenerson. It never occurred to you that it was their duty, when they had offered the Congressional Record to show these two bills were simultaneous and originated on that date, that you should look and see if the executive branch of the Government had anything to do with it. Mr. Vatentine. The question was not before me, and furthermore the committee will tell you, I am very sure, that at my request they told me I need be present only when they would say, and I have had too much to do to follow this investigation, except when on the stand. Whatever the committee wants and whatever anybody wants I am glad to put my office at their disposal, but I have not the per- sonal time to go into it. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2375 Mr. Srzenerson. Can you not see that in view of your statement that legislation in regard to Indian reservations was very likely to be influenced and to originate from the big business, that you so graphically described in answer to Mr. George’s question, that that might lead the committee, or any reasonable person, to conclude that such was the origin and explanation of this Clapp rider? Mr. Vatentine. I can not be responsible, Mr. Steenerson, for in- ferences that other people may draw. The committee—and that I remember very distinctly—were questioning me about the general affairs of the Indian service. Mr. Sreenerson. You knew, of course, that this investigation tended to criticize the legislation that occurred in 1904? Mr. Vatentine. The thing that I understood was that it tended ‘to criticize the legislation that occurred, I think, in 1906 and 1907. ; Me STEENERSON. You did not think it criticized the legislation of 904? Mr. Vatentine. I had no knowledge on that subject at all. Mr. Steenerson. Notwithstanding the fact that a whole chapter in this opening and very many pages of the hearings have been devoted to the legislation of 1904? ri Vatentine. That may be; but I had no personal knowledge of it. Mr. Steenerson. You have been in consultation with these men that prepared this, have you not? Mr. Vatentine. Very little, sir. Mr, Sreenerson. You have given them the privilege of access to all the records of your office? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, indeed. Mr. Steenerson. You have in your office the records of the corre- spondence, the official correspondence, of Mr. A. C. Tonner, Acting ommissioner of Indian Affairs, on January 9, 1904? Mr. Varentine. I should assume we would have any correspond- ence he signed. Mr. Sreenerson. You. have never looked up that record to see wees it threw any light on the origin of this Clapp rider of 1904, ave you? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; in fact, what you term the Clapp rider of 1904—-I am just making the acquaintance of it through your state- ment. Mr. Steenerson. I beg your pardon. You were questioned about it in your direct examination. Mr. Vatentine. Well, if I was, then I was asleep, Mr. Steenerson, because I thought I was being questioned about the so-called amend- ment of 1906 and 1907. The Cuarrman. What Clapp rider was there in 1904? Mr. Sreenerson. The one that I have just read, authorizing dis- posal of timber on allotments to Indians. The Cuarrman. Was that a rider or a separate bill? Mr. Sreenerson. It was a rider in the appropriation bill. It is called a rider, although it was put in there as a legislative provision at the request of the department; but, of course, this committee, I know, is anxious to have the whole history. The Cuarrman. We want all the facts that are relevant. 2376 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Srrenerson. And the emphasis that was placed on this in the extracts that I have read challenges the committee’s attention to the fact that the Steenerson additional allotment bill was introduced on one day, and very nearly that same date this other bill; and one provided the pine should fall into the hands of the Indians and the other how the pine should be disposed of, the natural inference being that that was the beginning of the legislation, oom The Cuairman. While one can not trust his recollection in such a vast mass of evidence as we have had, my recollection is the statement you now refer to had reference to the act of 1906 or along about that. Mr. Sreenzrson. We will come to that. Mr. Burcu. He is right about it. ; Mr. Sreenrrson. Now, I ask you to examine a letter from the Sec- retary of the Interior of date March 16, 1912. Mr. Vatentine. Do you wish me to read the letter? ; Mr. Strenerson. Yes; I wish you would read it and put it right in the record. Cy 2 Mr. Vatentine. This is a letter addressed to Mr. Steenerson, dated March 16, 1912, signed by Samuel Adams, First Assistant Secretary. [Reading :] Hon. Hatvor STEENERSON, House of Representatives. Sim: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of March 2, 1912, in regard to the item in the Indian appropriation bill approved April 21, 1904 (83 Stat. L., 209), providing for the sale of timber from allotments of Chippewa Indians in Minnesota. You say that this proposition appears to have been offered for the first time as an amendment to the appropriation bill in the Senate on January 138, 1904, and request that you be advised whether prior to or about that time any corre- spondence took place between this department and the Committee on Indian Affairs or any of its members relative to such proposition. On January 12, 1904, the department addressed a letter to the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, House of Representatives, transmitting a copy of Indian Office report of January 9, 1904, and requesting the favorable consideration of a proposed legislative item providing for the sale of timber. from the allotments of Chippewa Indians in Minnesota. On January 14, 1904, the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate, referred to this department a proposed amendment to the Indian appropriation bill for the fiscal year ending June 380, 1905. On January 22, 1904, the Indian Office made a favorable report upon this amendment, and on January 25, 1904, the department addressed a letter to the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate, recommending that the item in question receive favorable consideration. This item was substantially the same as that suggested in departmental letter of January 12, 1904, to the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, House of Representatives. Copies of Indian Office letters of January 9, 1904, and January 22, 1904, and of departmental letters of January 12, 1904, and January 25, 1904, are inclosed for your information. Respectfully, SAMUEL ADAMS, First Assistant Secretary. Mr. Sreenerson. You might as well read the other. Mr. Vatenrine. The next one is a letter dated January 12, 1904, addressed to the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, House - of Representatives, and signed by E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary. Mr. Grorez. What year is that? Mr. Vatentine. 1904, January 12. The Cuarrman. That letter called out the one you have just read? Mr. Vatentine. Apparently it is a letter Mr. Steenerson asked to have a copy of. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2377 The Cuarrman. I mean the letter to which the first one you read is an answer; it really should have been read in its order. Mr. Srernerson. No; because they come as inclosures, so they are logioae read in their proper order now. . VaLenTINE. This letter acknowledged the receipt of Mr. Steenerson’s letter of March 2, and furnishes him with some infor- mation he wishes and copies of some letters. The Cuarrman. The letter of March 2 is the one I have been trying to inquire about. Mr. Vatentine. The letter of March 2 is Mr. Steenerson’s letter, and that apparently is not with this file. Mr. Sreenerson. Simply asking for this information. Mr. Burcu. If this last letter is to be read in evidence, I call for the initials, etc., connected with it; I mean the last letter. I want every initial about it, whereby it can be traced to its source. Mr. Vatentine. The only initials on it. appear to be “300, Ind. Div. 1904, 2 enclosures, JES.” Mr. Sreenerson. You might as well read it. Mr. VaLentine (reading) : The CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, House of Representatives. Sir: I have the honor to transmit herewith, with request for favorable con- sideration, copy of Indian Office report of 9th instant, and the following item, providing for the sale of timber on allotted lands of the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota : “The Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnésota, to whom allotments have been or shall hereafter be made. and trust or other patents containing restric- tions upon alienation issued, or shall be issued therefor, are, with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, hereby authorized to dispose of the timber on their respective allotments. Timber on the allotments of minors may likewise be so sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent or other officer in charge, in the order named.” Very respectfully, E. A. Hitcucock, Secretary. The next letter is dated Department of the Interior, Washington, January 25, 1904, addressed to the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate, signed E. A. Hitchcock, Secre- tary, and bears these cabalistic figures: 520 764 } Ind. Div. 1904. 300 3 enclosures. JES. The Cuarrman. The same initials as the other? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. . . The Cuarrman. Do you know who that is, or was? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. _ oe iy; : Mr. Burcu. This was during Commissioner Jones’s administration, Mr. Luke’s predecessor. Mr. Varentrine (reading) : The SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR. Sim: I have the honor to inclose herewith an item which I recommend Con- gress be requested to insert in the Indian appropriation bill. If said item becomes a law, the Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota, to whom allot- ments have been or shall hereafter be made, may dispose of the timber on their respective allotments. under such regulations as may be promulgated by the department. The timber on the ceded land in the State of Minnesota is now 73822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-3, vol 2——55 2378 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, being sold in accordance with the provisions of the act of June 27, 1902 (32 Stat., 400), generally known as the Morris Act, and the office has received applications from many Indians of the ceded lands and those of the White Earth Diminished Reservation for permission to dispose of the timber on their allotments, for the purpose of improving the same or better adapting them to agricultural or farming uses. It is believed that these Indians should be au- thorized to dispose of the timber under the circumstances indicated, and that a better price can be obtained for said timber at this time in view of the timber on the ceded lands being sold than can be obtained therefor after the timber on said ceded lands shall have been disposed of. The item provides that the timber on allotments of minors may be sold by the father, mother, “or Indian agent or other officer in charge, in the order named.” Some of the Indians are orphan minors, and it is believed that the timber on their allotments should be sold for their benefit, the proceeds to be used for such purpose as the regulations may prescribe. The item has been made to provide that the timber may be sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent or other officer in charge, in order to avoid the necessity of the appoint- ment of a legal guardian if any allottee is an orphan minor. It is therefore respectfully recommended that said item be transmitted to the chairman of the House Committee on Indian Affairs, with recommendation that it be enacted into law. Very respectfully, A. C. TONNER, Acting Commissioner. The next is a copy of a letter which bears the heading “ Depart- ment of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington,” and at the left “ Land 949-1904,” and up in the upper right-hand corner the initials “CFL,” and the letter is signed by A. C. Tonner, acting commissioner, and the initials at the bottom “ GAW-CGO.” Mr. Grorcr. Do you know who that may be? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know who CGO is. GAW, I think, is Mr. George A. Ward, formerly of the Indian Office. ‘Mr. Burcu. Are not Mr. Larabee’s initials there, too? Mr. Vatentine. His initials are in the upper right-hand corner of the letter “ CFL.” Shall I read the letter, Mr. Chairman ? The CHarrman. Very well. Mr. VaLenrtine (reading) : JANUARY 22, 1904. The SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR. Str: By your reference of January 16, 1904, the office is in receipt for report and recommendation of a proposed amendment to the Indian appropriation bill. The proposed amendment is as follows: “The Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota, to whom allotments have been or shall hereafter be made, and trust or other patents containing restrictions upon alienation issued or shall be issued therefor, are, with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, hereby authorized to dispose of the timber on their re- spective allotments. Timber on the allotments of minors may likewise be so sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent, or other officer in charge in the order named.” ® In connection with said proposed amendment attention is respectfully invited to office report of January 9, 1904 (Land 949), transmitting for the depart- nent’s consideration a proposed item for insertion in the Indian appropriation bill, which said item was almost identical with the proposed amendment under consideration. For the reasons stated in said report this office is of the opinion that the interests of the Chippewa allotted Indians in the State of Minnesota will be best subserved by the enactment of said proposed amend- ment into law, and it is respectfully recommended that the chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs be so advised, and that he be furnished with a copy of office report of January 9, 1904. Said report was made in duplicate. : Very respectfully, A. C. TonNER, Acting Commissioner. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2379 The item follows, and reads as follows—there are no initials on the page: The Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota to whom allotments have been or shall hereafter be made and trust or other patents containing restric- tions upon alienation issued or shall be issued therefor are, with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, hereby authorized to dispose of the timber on their respective allot- ments. Timber on the allotments of minors may likewise be so sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent, or other officer in charge in the order named. Then there follows a copy of the letter, “ Department of the In- terior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington.” In the upper left-hand corner are the initials “ Land 4378-1904 ” and in the upper right-hand corner the initials “ CFL.” The letter is dated January 22, 1904, and addressed to the Secretary of the Interior, and signed by A. C. Tonner, acting commissioner, with the initials at the left “GAW™” and “ LKS.” Mr. Burcs. That “CFL” was Mr. Larrabee, probably. Mr. Vatentine. That, I think, was Maj. Charles F. Larrabee, assistant commissioner. The letter reads as follows: The CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, United States Senate. Siz: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt, by your reference of 14th instant, of an amendment intended to be proposed by Mr. Clapp to the Indian appropriation bill for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1905. This amendment provides for the sale by the Chippewa Indians of Minne- sota of the timber on their allotments under rules and regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. 7 In response thereto, I transmit herewith copy of Indian Office report of 22d instant upon this amendment, together with copies of the commissioner’s re port of 9th instant, and of department letter of the 12th instant, to the chair: man of the Committee on Indian Affairs, House of Representatives, transmit- ting for favorable consideration an item for insertion in the Indian bill, said item being in the same words as the amendment under consideration. It is recommended that this matter receive favorable action by your com- mittee. Very respectfully, BH. A. Hircwcock, Secretary. Mr. Sreenerson. That explains, as far as you know—as far as the records of the department are concerned—the origin of this item, does it not? : Mr. Vatentine. It would seem so; yes, sir. ; Mr. Sreenerson. I noticed in the so-called opening statement, printed in No. 7 of these hearings, that the disposal of timber under this item 1904 is referred to as the “first grab,” as I understand it. Now, have you ever looked up the records of your office to see how much pine or timber was disposed of by authority of that provision in the Indian appropriation bill for that year up to 1906? Mr. Vatentine. Not to my recollection, sir.- Mr. Sreenrrson. You never inquired into that? Mr. Vatentine. Not as far as I recall. Mr. Burcu. Did you say graft? ; so] ; Mr. Sreenerson. Grab. And, of course, in the administration of that law the Secretary would have to consent and prescribe the rules under which the timber was disposed of? Mr. Vatentrne. I should say so, sir. ; : Mr. Sreexerson. And those rules and regulations are in your office ? . Mr. Vatentine. I assume so, sir. 2380 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Sreenerson. And can you explain how it could be any grab, if it was done by the consent of the Secretary and under the rules prescribed ? : Mr. Vatentine. Conceding, without reading these inferences you suggest, or attributing any motives, I do not know that grab question would be in the hands of any monopolist; anybody might take part in a grab. Mr. Sreenerson. It would be an ordinary business transaction in the administration of the Indian affairs, would it not, to sell pine under this authority? Mr. VaLentine. Yes. Mr. Sreenerson. And every stick would have to be sold under eonsent of the Secretary ? Mr. Vatenttne. I should say so; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you know of any law whereby any stick of pine or any foot of land in the White Earth Reservation could be sold without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior before the Clapp amendment of 1906? Mr. Vatenttne. I do not happen to know of any such. Mr. Steenerson. If there was you would know it, would you not? a Vatentine. I would constructively, but I might not per- sonally. Nie, Sram: So far as you know that is the first law that re- moved restrictions upon alienation on White Earth, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. I have no knowledge about it one way or the other, because I never made any study of it. Mr. Stzenrrson. Did you ever hear of any other law? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. So you could not say, then, whether there was any authority before that? Mr. Vatentine. I could not say; no, sir. Mr. Steenerson. But you do not know of any. Now, I hand you a letter of March 4, 1912, from the Second Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. You can identify that as coming from your office, ean you? = Mr. Vatentine. That looks natural; yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. You know the signature, do you? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; Mr. Hauke. Mr. Sreenerson. That, if the chairman please, shows the amount ef timber disposed of before the Clapp amendment—after the pas- sage of this and before the Clapp amendment. . The Cuarirman. Before the amendment of 1906? Mr. Sreenerson. Yes; and I want it in this connection. Mr. Grorcr. On the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Sreenerson. Certainly; I do not want anything else. Mr. Vatenting. Shall I continue to act as reading clerk to the committee ? The Cuarrman. If you have no objection. Mr. Vatenting. Do you wish all the initials, as before? The Cuarrman. Yes; they shed light on it. Mr. Vatentine. This is a letter on the Indian Office paper: In- itial “KK” up in the right-hand corner; three men, “A, L, and C.” It was dictated by “JPK, Field forestry 21466-1912, sale of timber White Earth Reservation,” dated March 4, 1912, addressed to Hon. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2381 Halvor Steenerson, House of Representatives, and signed by C. F. Hauke, second assistant commissioner, with the figures and initials “3-FCT-4” in the lower left-hand corner, and reads as follows: Hon. Hatvor STEENERSON, House of Representatives. Sir: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of March 4, 1912, requesting information whether any timber was sold from any allot- ments on the White Earth Indian Reservation under authority of the act of April 21, 1904 (33 Stat. L., 189, 209), and prior to June 21, 1906. During the logging season of 1904-5 there was cut and sold from White Earth allotments, under authority of the act of April 21, 1904, pine and spruce timber to the amount of 8,197,250 feet b. m., the gross receipts from the same being $79,280.57 and the net proceeds received by the allottees after payment of all expenses and cost of operations was $46,831.09. No sales of timber from allotments during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1906, were reported by the superintendent. Respectfully, C. F. Havxg, Second Assistant Commissioner. Mr. Sreenerson. Will you compute how much per thousand feet net that would be to the Indian. It says so much gross and so much net. Mr. Vatentine. Do you want the difference? Mr. Burcu. It would be about $6.60, I guess. on Srrenerson. No; $5. Divide the net receipts by the number of feet. Mr. Vatentine. Yes; I see what you want. I thought you wanted the difference. Mr. Sreenerson. I want to get the net per thousand, that gives the net receipts and gives the total number of feet. Mr. Vatentine. It would be a little over $5. Do you want it exactly ? Mr: Sreenerson. Well, not down to the mills. Mr. Vatentrne. It is $5.71 roughly. © Mr. Steenrrson. I believe you said something in your direct ex- aminations about Indian councils, Mr, Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenrrson. And if I understood you rightly, you do not have very much faith in their importance or in the weight that should be attached to their action. Mr. Vaventine. Well, there are undoubtedly some good councils, but as a general proposition you have stated my view correctly, sir. Mr. Steenrrson. I believe you indicated, in answer to the chair- man’s question, that they were a farce. Mr. Vatentine. They come pretty near being that as a rule. I think the chairman modified his question a little bit. : Mr. Steenerson. Yes; I do not want to put a wrong construction on it. Have you any remedial suggestion in regard to councils? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I think a direct primary would be a little better. Mr. Sreenzerson. You are aware that this legislation, for instance, that we spoke of proposed in 1911, for a commission, that that was brought down here by representatives of an alleged Indian council. Mr. Vauenttne. I believe that was the case. Mr. Srernerson. And also representatives of commercial clubs, at least, they were here at the same time. Mr. Vatentine. I think they were. 2382 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Srernerson. I think they appeared. I do not know whether they appeared, but the representatives of the Indian councils of the State were heard before the Committee on Indian Affairs, and you probably learned of that fact, and then sent for Indians to come down and oppose the bill; I believe you did have two councils, or two different delegations from White Earth in regard to that measure. "Mr. Vatentrve. I think there were two delegations in town at the same time. tr Mr. Srennerson. Do you know how the second one originated ? Mr. Varentine. If I can recall correctly, a delegation of full bloods was asked for by the Department of Justice. Mr. Burcu. You are mixed up. He is speaking of the Clapp rider of 1906, are you not? - Mr. Sreenprson. I am speaking about the commission bill that was pending and was dropped in 1911. Mr. Burcu. All right; I am wrong. : Mr. Vatentine. I said the Department of Justice. I perhaps should amend that by saying I think it was the local officers up there. Mr. Stzenerson. The Indian agent, probably? Mr. Vatentrne. I think he had a hand in it; yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Who was the Indian agent? Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Howardson. Mr. Sreenerson. You would not advocate the doing away with Indian councils entirely, would you? Mr. Vatentine. I think I would, under their present way of operating. ; Mr. Sreenerson. On the theory that they are not competent to know their own interest and their own welfare? Mr. Vatentrne. Not wholly on that theory; no. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, the White Earth Reservation, generally speaking, has about as intelligent people in it of Indian blood as any in Minnesota, has it not? Mr. Vatentine. Oh, ves; and if there was some careful regula- tion by which a general vote under proper conditions could be taken, T do not doubt the White Earth Indians could choose some very wise representatives. Mr. Srrenerson. You are not familiar with the history of the councils on Red Lake Reservation, are you? Mr. Vatentine. Not as a rule; no, sir. I have held one or two there myself—not exactly councils, but general meetings. Mr. Sreenerson. From information in your office or otherwise, did you learn of the councils that were held in 1902 and 1903 at Red Lake, whereby they rejected proposals from Congress; practically vetoed an act of Congress—that is, refused to accept it? . a a I do not recall having any personal knowledge of that. Mr. Sreenerson. And you never read about it? Mr. Vatentine. I may have, but I do not recall it. I remember one council that was held up there, but I could not fix its date. I remember reading about one council. I think it was one of those very striking cases where the Indians in council asked certain things and agreed to certain things, and then Congress passed an act which very largely amended the agreement with the Indians, and the two WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2383 were printed side by side and were quite different. That is what recalls it to my mind, the rather striking difference between the agreement of the Indians and the act as passed. ‘Mr. Sreenerson. The Red Lake Indians, I will state for your in- formation, first made an agreement in council for the sale of that “11 towns” for a million dollars flat, and there was a quarter of a million acres in it, or a little more, and when Congress proposed to act as trustee and dispose of the quarter million acres at $4 an acre for homesteads and submitted it to the Red Lake Indians, they refused to accept that proposition, because they said the land was wet and would not be taken and they would not get the million dollars they were promised, and they rejected the proposition. After- wards Congress, in 1904, amended the law so as to sell the land at auction, thereby realizing very much higher prices for the best land, and as a result of that the Indians received—have already received a million and a half dollars, have got $200,000 coming, and there is $75,000 worth of land yet to be sold, so that the result of the Indian councils on Red Lake would indicate that it would not be wise to do away with the Indian councils. They seemed up there to know their own interests as well as white people, and would you not say that would be. true of all Indian reservations, if the councils were fairly held? Mr. Vatentine. I think if the councils were fairly held and un- der proper restrictions such a condition might be brought about. Mr. Sreenerson. I believe you have referred in your direct exam- ination to the additional allotment act. Mr. Vatentine. I may have mentioned there were two allotments made at White Earth. Mr. Sreenerson. That is the Steenerson Act. Mr. Vaztentrine. I do not recall the name of it, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. The act whereby the Indians were given 80 acres additional, and which was referred to in this extract that I read from the record. Have you ever examined the records of your office with reference to ascertaining the origin of that act? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Streenerson. Now, reading the record, given before the com- mittee here, one would conclude that these two bills, the rider of 1904, which we have just been talking about. and the additional allotment bill, that they originated very closely together, about the same time, and I assume, in view of your testimony as to the in- fluences that surround Indian reservations and the Congressmen that represent the districts containing Indian reservations, that the inference might be drawn that the moving causes of that legislation, which became a law in 1904, were these outside interests. You had that suspicion yourself, did you not? : ; Mr. Vatentine. I should not assent to any such inference in any particular case, unless I first made a very careful study of the facts. Mr. Sreenerson. You did not have that in mind when you gave your testimony. Mr. Vatentrne. No, sir. ; ; ; as Mr. Sreenerson. Nor did you have in mind this legislation of 1904, that has been exploited before this committee and these hear- ings. 2384 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. So far as I know, I had no personal knowledge of that until you brought it up to-day. . Mr. Sreenerson. You knew, of course, the legislation in a general way was criticized and found fault with. Mr. Vatenttinz. I know the legislation of 1906 and 1907 was criti- cized and found fault with. That is what I had in mind when I was testifying. Mr. Sreenerson. You did not know the legislation prior to that time was criticized and found fault with, did you? Mr. Vatentine. I had no knowledge of that. Mr. Sreenerson. You and your clerical force have been assisting in getting up these documents, have you not? Mr. Vaentine. I judge so; yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. That bore on this legislation in 1904 and prior ears? ‘ Mr. Vatentine. I suppose so, if the committee made any requests for documents or the Department of Justice made any request. Mr. Steenerson. But you have never submitted to the Department of Justice the records of your office that show the beginning, the origin, of that additional allotment act, have you? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know whether we have or not. Mr. Sreenerson. You do not know anything about it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Why do you not know? Mr. Vatentine. Jt was never brought to my attention in any way. Mr. Srzenerson. You knew it was of vital importance, apparently, from evidence, or rather comments, in the hearings here? Mr. Vatentine. I shall have to be excused from even knowing that, because I have not read the hearings. : ; Mr. Sreenerson. You never looked to see whether the additional allotment act originated in a protest by the Chippewa Indians on White Earth Reservation, dated March 15, 1892, now more than 20 years ago? Mr. Vatentinz. I have not had much time for historical studies since I have been at the head of the Indian Office. Mr. Sreenerson. Historical study is quite pertinent to the matter before this committee, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. That may be; but the committee has not called on me for any study in the matter. Mr. Sreenerson. And you did not know that the bill for additional allotments originated in your own office 26 years ago? Mr. Vatentine. I had no idea; no, indeed. Mr. Srrenrrson. And you did not know it was sent to Congress with a letter from the Department of Justice recommending it before ever Senator Nelson or Senator Clapp was a Member of the Senate and 10 years before Mr. Steenerson was a Member of Congress? Mr. Vatentine. I am sorry, sir, but I did not know of that at all. _ Mr. Sreenerson. When you, through your attorneys, who are act- ing in this investigation, were criticizing and commenting upon the eee It seems to me it was your duty to tell them how it origi- nated. Mr. Vatzntnz. I do not think I can quite agree with you in ac- cepting personal responsibility on that point. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2385 Mr. Steenzerson. Do you not think you had a duty in regard to the matter at all? Mr. Vatentine. I do not see how I could have any duty in regard to something I knew nothing about. I have enough duties concern- ing matters where I do know something. Mr. Steenerson. You could easily find out in your office how the original allotment Bee on originated ? Mr. Vatentine. Nobody ever asked me how the se allotment proposition originated. ‘ Mr. Srgenerson. But there have been records and evidence offered ere. Mr. Vatentrne. It may be, but, as I told you before, I knew noth- ing about how the records were made up. Mr. Sreenzrson. And this investigation was begun with your cooperation? | Mr. Vatentine. Do you. {ean this present committee investiga- tion? aes Mr. Steenerson. Certainly. Mr. Vatentine. Not to my knowledge. Mr. Sreenrrson. You had nothing to do with it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I am one of the victims. Mr. Sreenerson. I thought this was for the purpose of clearing up the White Earth situation and suggesting legislation ? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is going to be one of the greatest things ever held, but I can not claim any credit for it. Mr. Steenerson. But you were willing to have these laws ques- tioned and to say nothing about what the records in your office showed in regard to their history ? Mr. Vatenrine. To keep my present pleasant frame of mind, Mr. Steenerson, I think that question is a little unfair. Of course you realize I am not willing for any such thing. - The Cuarrman. Let me see there, Mr. Steenerson, if our minds are all meeting on one point. As I understand some of your questions and some of your statements, you are going on the theory that Mr. Valentine helped in the preparation of the statement known as No. 7 of the hearings. Some of the questions asked assumed that to be true, as I understood them. Is that the fact, or is it your under- standing of the fact? Mr. Sreenerson. Well, I assumed that, as he says, the Depart- ment of Justice was acting as his attorney in this matter and that he was in consultation and submitted to them all the records of his office relating to the matter, and it seemed to me he should have submitted to the Department of Justice all the records that related to the origin of the additional allotment act, as well as to the other; otherwise this committee would be misled, especially in view of the fact this witness has gone on and dilated upon the op- portunities for big business to influence legislation, thereby leaving it open to conclusion that all this legislation thus originated, and instead of that I thought it was pertinent that he ought to know, before he makes that statement, that this legislation originated within his own office. : oss : The Cuarrmany. I will just ask him a question that is in my mind, so I, at least, will get this right. Mr. Valentine, No. 7 of the record is a statement by way of preliminary statement as to the facts 2386 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. which the attorneys representing the Department of Justice said they hoped to support by evidence. Did you have any personal part in the preparation of that statement known as No. 7? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Cuarrman. That is what I wanted to get at. I was confused about it. You never read it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Cuatrman. He might have helped to prepare it without hay- ing read it, but I wanted to know what part, if any, he had in the preparation of it? ; Mr. Vatentine. There is another point you mentioned that might leave the record a little vague, and that is, I had submitted to the Department of Justice all the records, I believe you stated, bearing on this thing. I do not recall ever having done so, and certainly do not remember making a statement to that effect. The records of our office were open to the. Department of Justice in reference to this case to get whatever was relevant to the case, and we gave them whatever they asked for, but I would not by any means make the statement I had submitted to them all the material. Mr. Sreenerson. So they picked out those parts which they wanted and left out what they did not want. Mr. Vatentine. I should say like any person, either arguing a case or writing a book. Mr. Steenerson. Looking out for their own side of the question? Mr. Vatentine. I would not say that, but I think my meaning is lain. ? Mr. Georer. I understood Mr. Valentine to mean—and I want to have the thing clear in my own mind—that he threw the whole office and all the files open, and the attorneys from the department were free to have access to all those files and to present to this committee whatever they found there which seemed to be relevant; but I did not understand that Mr. Valentine himself or through any of his officers there picked out particular papers and laid them before the attorneys. Am I right, Mr. Valentine? Mr. Vatentine. You are entirely correct, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Of course, you took no concern about whether they got the whole correspondence in regard to any subject or only a part of it? : Mr. Vatentine. I had no personal relation to that matter. Mr. Sreenrrson. You did not care? Mr. Vatentine. I would not say I did not care. That would put me in a wrong light. Mr. Sreenrerson. You took no concern about it? Mr. Varzentine. I was busy about other things. Mr. Steenerson. Well, there are some records that I will offer on that later on. I have not got them here, as to the origin of this legis- islation. But you say you have studied the origin of the legislation of 1906 and 1907. Mr. Vatentine. No; I could not say that. Mr. Srzenerson. What did you say a moment ago about that? _ Mr. Vatentine. I said that was the legislation that I felt was very bad legislation. I was not so much interested in its origin as in the fact of its existence. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2387 Mr. Sreenerson. The so-called Clapp amendment which removed restrictions upon alienation as to adult mixed bloods upon White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. If you are referring to the amendments of 1906 and 1907, those are the ones I mean. Mr. Sreenerson. The effect was to remove the restrictions upon alienation for allotments of adult mixed bloods. Mr. Vatentine. That was my understanding. Mr. Sreenerson. And that is what you think was bad legislation ? Mr, Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenzrson. What did you do with reference to remedying that legislation ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, as far as I can personally testify, when the matter was brought to my attention through Mr. Moorehead’s investi- gation, as to the results that had occurred, I think the records show what has been done since then; that is, when we asked the Depart- ment of Justice to enter the case. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, that is practically all you did, to turn the matter over to the Department of. Justice after you got the reports? Mr. Vatentine. I outlined in my testimony the other day the personal part I took in the matter about being active in sending Mr. Linnen up there again with Mr. Moorehead and making some study of the case, and then took it up with the Department of Justice for legal action. Mr. Sreenerson. The first legislation you knew of being proposed, which you thought hampered the administration of affairs, either by the Department of Justice or by your department, was the commis- sion bill of 1911? Mr. Vatentine. That is the first that I recall at this moment. Mr. Sreenerson. That is the one you and I conferred with regard to when it was pending before the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House. Mr. Vatentine. I believe that is the one you and those other gen- tlemen were in to see me about. Mr. Sreenerson. Well, you have not heard of that bill being re- vived since I told you the bill would be withdrawn and was with- drawn, have you? : Mr. Vauentrne. It seems to me I heard some little rumor of its revival, but I could not place it. I do not mean of your bill. but some further talk later of another commission. Mr. Sreenerson. Of another commission ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, of another commission bill. Mr. Sreenerson. Who talked about that? ; Mr. Vatentine. I could not recall; I simply say I have vaguely in mind there was some such talk; that there might be some attempt to get such a bill through this Congress. : Mr. Sreenerson. You were asked about the hampering of your affairs by the introduction of bills, and you referred particularly to the so-called innocent purchasers’ bill, that was introduced in this Congress and is pending. Do you recall that? Mr, VatenTine. I do not recall referring to it myself; no. Mr. Steenerson. You do not recollect being asked about it? Mr. Vatentine. I remember your speaking about it to me, I think. 2388 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Sreenerson. No; the other day when you were being exam- ined by Mr. Burch. Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall it. Mr. Sreenerson. Have you forgotten that he asked you about that innocent-purchasers bill? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall it under that name. The Crarrman. Is that the one now pending, Mr. Steenerson ? Mr. Sreenerson. H. R. 934. The Cuarrman. The effect of it is to change the period of limita- tions? Mr. Sreenerson. No; not that one. This is the one that provides where cases have been brought, suits have been brought. by the United States— _ On behalf of any Indian allottee of lands on White Earth Reservation, in the State of Minnesota, to set aside any conveyance of such Jand upon the ground that the grantor is a full-blood Indjan and not embraced within the class of Indians authorized to convey land under the act of June twenty-first, nineteen hundred and six, the defendant or defendants in such suit may plead by way of supplemental pleading that such grantor conveyed his land under the representa- tion that he was a mixed-blood Indian and received valuable consideration therefor which he still retains, the fair value of such land at the time of such attempted conveyance, and that he is ready and willing to pay into court for the benefit of such grantor the difference, if any, between such fair value and the amount already paid, and thereupon the court shall, upon evidence sub- mitted on the stipulation of counsel, find the fair value of the land at the time of such attempted sale, and also the amount actually paid therefor, and upon payment of the difference, if any there be, into court for the benefit of such Indian grantor, judgment coufirming such sale shdll be entered and adjudging the title accordingly. In determining the fair value of such land, the court shall take into consid- eration the price at which similar Jand was actually sold for by persons compe- tent to sell at or about the time and in said locality. All moneys paid into court as above prescribed shall be paid over to the Sec- retary of the Interior for the use of the Indians entitled thereto. In all cases where any Indian allottee of land on White Harth Reservation in Minnesota, who appears upon the roll prepared by the Department of Justice and known as the Hinton roll as full-blood Indians, has heretofore or shall here- after attempt to sell and convey his land to innocent purchasers under the pre- text that he or she is a mixed blood and authorized to convey under the act of June twenty-first, nineteen hundred and six, and such vendee shall have gone into actual possession of such land and made valuable improvements thereon, the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized and directed to speedily ascertain the fair value of said land at the time of such attempted conveyance thereof, and in ascertaining such fair value he shall take into consideration the price at which like parcels of lands were sold in that locality at that time by persons competent to dispose of them; and when such value is ascertained, the purchaser may pay to the Secretary of the Interior, for the benefit of the Indian allottee, the difference between such amount and the amount actually paid to such incompetent allottee, and thereupon the Secretary of the Interior shall approve such sale and shall issue fee-simple papers thereon without delay. Now, do you recall being asked about that bill as one of the bills which had hampered you in your administration ? _ Mr. Vatentine. I may well have been asked about it, but if I was, it went in one ear and out of the other. Mr. Srernerson. Is this one of the bills you suspected was intro- duced by reason of the local influences surrounding the reservation? Mr. Vatentine. Your bringing it to my attention to-day now is the first time it has come sharply in my consciousness, so I could not have referred to it as one of those. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2389 Mr. Sreenerson. You did not refer to it as one of those? Mr. Vatentine. No; because, as I say, this is the first time it has come sharply into my consciousness. Mr. Steenerson. You are not aware I was severely criticised in the Tomahawk for introducing this bill? Mr. Varentine. I am inclined to think that would be one of the few cases where I would agree with the Tomahawk. I do not like the looks of that bill as you read it. Mr. Srrenerson. I am not asking your opinion about it, I am ask- ing you whether or not you knew that this bill was opposed by almost every man on the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. I have no knowledge of that. Mr. Sreenerson. You have got no reports about it? Mr. Vatentine. There may be in the office. Mr. Sreenerson. Newspapers at Mahnomen and newspapers at Waubun and the Tomahawk at White Earth. Mr. Varentine..I do not have much time to read the newspapers. Mr. Steenerson. Well, you recognize it as being a desirable thing to have litigation settled, if it can be settled on just terms, do you not as a general proposition ? Mr. Vauentrne. I believe in justice as a general proposition, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Do you not believe it would be better not to have lawsuits if you can get just results without them? Mr. Vatentine. As a general proposition that sounds safe. Mr. Sreenerson. And I think you mentioned that as one of the good results of the work of your special agents in Oklahoma; they had settled a large number of lawsuits amicably, and the Indians got all they were entitled to, and the people got their land and went on with their improvements? Mr. VaLentTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Steenerson. That is one of the works in which you employ special agents, is it not? Mr. VatentIne. That is part of their functions. Mr. Sreenerson. And it is regarded down there as a blight upon the country to have a large number of lawsuits pending? Mr. Vatentine. As far as they cloud title of lands, unquestionably. Mr. Steenerson. You know that a man who owns 80 acres of farm- ing land, worth say $8, $10, or $15 an acre, would have to pay out more for costs and attorney’s fees and disbursements in defending a case against the United States, carried to its utmost, that is to its highest court, than the land would be worth. Mr. Vatentine. Unless it were very valuable land. Mr. Sreenerson. And that when he won the case, however good a cause he had, he could not recover any costs against the United States. You know that to be a fact, do you not? Mr. Vatentrine. I do not know that I am lawyer enough to assent offhand, but it sounds all right. Mr. Srernerson. So that a case involving 80 acres of land would hardly be worth defending, and the Government might as well con- fiscate the land, so far as that particular owner was concerned. I am speaking of this to show you the seriousness of the litigation and considering the people up there who have agricultural land to dis- pose of, then in the same way: 2390 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VaLentine (interposing). I recognize fully the seriousness of the situation, but it seems to me we have to go back of the litiga- tion to find out the cause, and the cause was in the frauds perpetrated. Mr. Steenerson. Do you not think the cause was the law? Mr. Vatentine. A pretty big part of it. Mr. Sreenerson. And Congress passed the law. The law was not passed by Senator Clapp or any one man; it was passed by Congress. Mr. Vatentrine. I have never said it was. ; Mr. Stennerson. Congress is responsible for legislation ? Mr, Vatentine. Possibly. My. Srrenerson. Now, for instance, by way of illustration. While I was on White Earth Reservation last summer I found a—I think he was a Bohemian, I have got his name—a farmer with a big family who had but 80 acres of land that he was cultivating—ap- parently a very industrious, thrifty man, who had bought an addi- tional 80 acres from an Indian who claimed to be a mixed blood— his name was witnessed by the chief clerk in the Indian Office at the agency and another employee of the Government; he had paid for the land. assuming that it was all right. Now, there are several cases of that kind. One, I think, was the case that was mentioned in these hearings here of the Rev. Mr. Wright, where a man, I think his name was Larsen, bought the land and paid for it subject to a mortgage, which he paid. Mr. Wright claimed to be a mixed blood and claims to be a mixed blood to-day, but the Department of Justice does not feel that they are sure about his being a mixed blood, and they say it is their duty to prosecute the case regardless of the merits as to good faith of the purchasers. The Cuarrman. On that point, Mr. Steenerson, I do not think the department looked at it at the same angle as to the term “ mixed blood.” I take it, from your language, you assume that as a matter of law the courts will hold that a man having the slightest quantity of Indian blood in him, even a two hundred and fifty-sixth part, is a mixed blood. Mr. Sreenrrson. But I understand the Department of Justice makes a claim to the contrary; and that is the reason, and a very good reason, why they do not feel at liberty to dismiss the case where the man himself thinks he is a mixed blood, but they might think, within the law, he was a full blood. The Cuarrman. The point is to get a legal judicial definition of the term “ mixed blood.” Mr. Sreenrrson. I understand there is no judicial definition. The Cuarrmay. I see that you and I agree on that. Mr. Sreenerson. But as I understand it—and I am not trying to commit you as to what the law is—as I understand it, there is not any law now that would authorize either your department or the Interior Department, through you, to confirm any of these sales on any price. Take, for instance, the case of Rev. Mr. Wright, who is an Episcopal minister serving several congregations, a leader among his people, perfectly competent to do business, and, as I said, he represented himself to be a mixed blood and believed himself to be a mixed blood, and, because of that, authorized to convey; but the Department of Tustice thinks that under the law he is not. Now, there is no way Hs you department to settle that case, is there, under the present aw! WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2391 Mr. Vatentine. There is a noncompetent act, under which, I sup- pose, he could sell, if he wished to. Mr. Steenrrson. Give us the substance of that act. Mr. Vatentine. If he were not certain he were a mixed blood, un- - der any definition of mixed blood, and thereby became a legal non- competent, there is an act by which the department may sell for him. The Cuarrman. Just asa guardian may sell for a ward? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely. Mr. Sreenerson. In what way? Mr. Vatentine. It prices the land and puts it up at auction or sealed bids and disposes of it, and either takes charge of the proceeds or turns them over in whole or in part. Mr. Sreenerson. That would not authorize them to confirm the transaction made by this man, who is in fact competent ? Mr. Vatentine. I think under that act we would have power to ie private sale; it might be made in the way of confirming prior sale. Mr. Steenerson. Supposing the sale had already been made? Mr. Vatentine. I am not a lawyer, as you will kindly recognize, but I think we might have power to do something of that sort. Mr. Sreenerson. I simply want to know, you understand you have ample authority under the law to sell with that kind of a case? Mr. Vatentine. J am not sure about that, but I think I might. Mr. Steenrrson. I think there is some doubt about it; do you agree with me? Mr. Vatentine. I think there is some doubt about it. Mr. Sreenerson. And for that reason, perhaps, it is to the interest of the development and settlement of the country to have some law, if we could agree on its terms. Mr. Vatentine. That might be so. Mr. Burcu. Will you allow me a moment? I am aware that this investigation is not conducted by those well-settled rules which occur in the trial of cases at law or inequity, but in every instance, so far as I know before this committee, one who has assumed to make state- ments in either the form of questions or otherwise, but especially assumed to make statement, has gone on oath, and I rise to inquire whether a man, by virtue of his being a Member of Congress, can put in that which practically must be regarded as testimony in the case without being sworn? Now, I do not understand how even the loosest of practice would possibly permit questions to be put to one, for instance, one who is not a lawyer and has avowed himself as not being a lawyer, which in effect are legal arguments, or rather ques- tions of policy, etc., can’put into the form of a speech that which, to all intents and purposes, would be proper in a discussion on the floor of Congress, and yet have lodgment in this record, and I ask how far, and I ask it pertinently and practically to the conduct of the Representative in Congress who is now interrogating the wit- ness, how far and to what extent this can be carried? I have been compelled to go on oath before the committee in order to make clear certain things. I have done and others have done the same thing, and I do not think it is quite a fair proposition to permit of that sort of thing to:go to what I regard as an unwarranted extent. I am perfectly villi Mr. Steenerson should testify here to any length, 2392 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. but it seems to me one sided and unfair that much of that which he puts into this record should go in without being under oath. Mr. Sreenerson. Mr. Chairman, in response to that I would say that I have simply acted here as a sort of counsel or attorney in ex- amining the evidence, in order to aid the committee to get the whole truth, and I have assumed, as lawyers in court often do, facts in the question, and they were not objected to. It is an objection to a ques- tion that may sometimes be sustained by a court that it assumes facts that are not in evidence or that are disputed, but it is not customary in court or anywhere else to make the point that the gentleman has made. If he thinks that I have assumed facts that I ought not to assume, he should have objected at the time. The Cuairman. There are no objections being made here, Mr. Steenerson. This is not a trial. Mr. Srrenerson. I do not want to assume too much. I simply wish to discuss the question of policy. I suppose this committee might recommend legislation. The Cuarrman. In answer to your statement, Judge Burch, the Chair would say for himself that the committee is giving Congress- man Steenerson wider latitude than anyone else has had before. That is true. The committee think that some courtesy is due him. We did not know by any statement of his just whom he represented or why he was here. If he chose to come, that was enough for us. We have given him every liberty and every courtesy, and we feel like continuing to do that. So far as any statements he makes here as to opinions or facts they will have weight with the committee only so far as the committee knows them to be true. It will not consider any statement of his as evidence, nor will it consider the statement of any man as evidence, because everyone who has made statements of facts before it has done so under oath, as you yourself did and as everyone else was required to do. But we allowed you to make an opening statement—more than one, indeed—as an attorney. We allowed a Mr. O’Brien, of St. Paul, to make an opening statement on behalf of some clients of his. We allowed Mr. Dennis, of Detroit, to make an opening statement on behalf of some people that he repre- sented. We allowed Mr. Thompson, an attorney, to do the same thing. And such statements of opinion or fact as Mr. Steenerson may make now stand on a perfect equality with those statements made by attorneys heretofore—no higher and no lower. Mr. Burcu. If that is the case, I am satisfied. The Cuairman. If he is to give any testimony, he will have to be sworn. If the President of the United States wishes to make a state- ment before this committee by the way of evidence, he will have to take an oath. Mr. STEENERSON. I will just ask a few questions. If the judge wishes to object, of course I will try to conform to the objections. — Burcu. I do not object so much as I want to know where we are at. Mr. Sreenerson. What, if any, arrangement exists with regard to the continuing of the cutting and removal of timber upon the land that is now in suit between the United States and the Nichols-Chis- holm Lumber Co. and the other lumber company ? Mr. Vatentine. I could not answer you offhand on that. Mr. Sreenerson. Is there any? WHITE EARTH BESERVATION. 2393 Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. Mr. Stzenerson. You do not know anything about it? Mr. Vatenvine. I think there is some arrangement of some sort. We could have the records looked up for you. Mr. Steenerson. I am simply asking you this because I under- stood you to say that you carried on the administrative work of your bureau just the same as you had before, only that you had the De- partment of Justice at attorneys to consult with. That is the reason that I assumed that you did know of the arrangement. Mr. Vatentine. The office undoubtedly knows. Mr. Sreenerson. It is in your office? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. Mr. Sreenerson. Could you bring that here? Mr. Vatentinz. I should be very glad to, if there is any such arrangement. Mr. Sreenerson. You go so far as to say that there is an arrange- ment whereby the logging operations continue? Mr. Vatentinz. I could not say that personally from my own im- mediate recollection. Mr. Srsenerson. -No; but could you say what your information is? Mr. Vatentixe. I have no information other than what is now in my own head. I mean that I do not see any point in my testifying to what is an easily ascertainable matter of fact when I have no dis- tinct information of value in regard to it. Mr. Sreenerson. It is simply like this, we are anxious to know about it. This reservation is in my district, and we are anxious to know how you deal with the disputed land that is now in litigation. Mr. VaLentine. We can give you that precisely if we have any such information. Mr. Steenerson. Can you furnish this committee, if it is proper and they desire it, with the information as to what arrangement has been made with the lumber companies with regard to the cutting of timber on the land that is now in litigation? Mr. Vatentine. We will be glad to furnish you with anything we have on that subject. . Mr. Sreenerson. There is a statement in the hearings here to which I will call your attention. Perhaps that might bring it to your mind. ’ The Cuarrman. The evidence shows that information has been given covering the value of the timber in each case. Mr. Sreenerson. It has already been brought before the com- mittee? The Cuarrman. The evidence covers that point. In each case the lumber companies have given indemnifying bonds pending the re- sults of the actions. Mr. Sreenerson. I read from page 38 of the record for the pur- pose of calling the witness’s attention to it. The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Sreenerson. It reads as follows: But scattered along in our suits we have taken good care to see that they have been made defendants and that either prayers for injunctions, where the timber has not yet been cut, or for accounting where the timber has been cut, or for both, where it is in the intermediate stage, are filed and good bond required from these companies to protect, for the benefit of the Indians, any 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2 06 2394 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. timber which they may have purchased from lands thus unwarrantedly sold. That was the first work I did when I went to take this matter in charge, and I may say, for the benefit of those lumber companies who profess to have acted in perfect faith and may possibly see fit to be represented here by counsel—very heavy companies—that they did not put us to the trouble of asking for injunctions; they reasonably and quickly entered into an arrange- ment without that trouble, and we proceeded with our work. Now, understand, they had not got enough of this land—that is, there was not chance enough to get enough of the land—and so this additional amendment of 1907— I guess that last word there does not belong to the paragraph. That relates to legislation. I do not think it is punctuated correctly. The Cuarrman. Am I not right, Judge Burch, that indemnity bonds have been given in all cases of pending actions where the tim- ber has been removed ? Mr. Sreenerson. This is the only place in the record that I have seen printed so far——— The Cuarrman. The fact came out. Mr. Steenerson. Oh, yes; but I have not seen those records; but, being within the jurisdiction of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I asume that, as you say, you have full information on this point. Mr. Vatentine. J assume so, sir; yes. I should be glad to furnish you with it. Mr. Sreenerson. You could not say now, without reference to the records of your office, the general nature of the arrangement? Mr. Vatentine. I think it would be more satisfactory to have the actual data. , Mr. Sreenerson. We will expect to get that. Mr. Vaentine. Yes. Mr. Burcu. I can state it on oath Mr. Srrrnerson. I do not wish to have you do that. I will take your word any time. Mr. Burcu. I only say that I can state what the facts are, if that is what you want to know. Mr. Steenerson. Certainly, if it is relexant now. Mr. Burcu. It is to your question. Mr. Farr, yonder, and my- self went together, or rather he went first. __ Mr. Sreenerson. It might save encumbering the record, so, if the chairman will permit it, I shall insert it. Mr. Burcu. It can go into the record. We went there for the purpose, if necessary, of procuring an injunction. He went first on the belief, as represented by him to me, and in which he proved to be correct, that he could induce these companies to cease cutting, and enter into bonds as to the timber cut and already on hand. He had them there ready to meet me when I arrived at St. Paul. We held a conference which included the United States Attorney, Mr. Haupt. They did agree to cease cutting except in places, a very few in number, where they had partially cut, and where cutting, if utterly stopped, might endanger the burning and loss of the re- mainder at the ensuing spring. This was in the spring, if I remem- ber rightly, or rather in the late winter. It was provided that they should give bonds for the timber on hand and cease cutting any further timber, except in those two or three isolated cases. The dis- trict attorney, Mr. Haupt, agreed to draw and take care of the proper bond in the premises. I have no doubt he did. That is all. Mr. Sreenerson. I would still request the commissioner to in- quire into the records to see what the arrangement is, and also the WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2395 amount of timber that has been cut in the last three years or since these suits were begun upon litigated allotments. Mr. Vatenttne. I shall be glad to give you all the information we have on the subject, Mr. Steenerson. Mr. Srzenerson. Have you looked up the records to see if there was any estimate made to Congress for a hospital at White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. I think we are having some search made of our records, are we not, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Steenerson. You have not found it yet? Mr. Vatentine. The department, I find, approved an authority to build a hospital. Mr. Sreenerson. When ? Mr, Vatentine. I am told in the last week. Mr. Sreenerson. Oh, in the last week? Mr. Va.entIne. Yes. Mr. Sreenerson. But nothing prior to that? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. What is it that the department has done? Mr. Vacentine. They approved an authority to build a hospital within the last week. - Mr. Sreenerson. Within the last week. Iam very glad to hear it. You have not finished your investigation as to the unexpended balances? Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Meritt tells me he has not that information here to-day. We will have it for you to-morrow. Mr. Sreenerson. It may be irrelevant, but, of course, the com- mittee understands that we are not very strict in drawing the line of jurisdiction between committees here—— The Cuarrman. Nearly all of the committees, or the chairmen of them, that are collaterally interested have expressed the desire to develop any information that would help them in their work. Mr, Strenerson. In legislation? The Cuarrman. Yes, sir; there is no jealousy such as some folks talk about. There is no feeling. Mr. Steenerson. That is the way I understand it. The CHarrman. If you can do something that will help some other committee, bring it out. Mr. Sreenrrson. Of course, the chairman will realize that there is a situation which, if it existed in any other district, would be a good deal the same. There is a general desire to quiet titles and to de- velop the country. When I say “ quiet titles” the commissioner has very properly called my attention to the fact that they are not actu- ally clouded, because they are not in suit. It is these we seek to re- lieve. But of the 4,000 allotments that were conveyed in White Earth, 1,200 are now in litigation since the Department of Justice took hold of them, and the bringing of those 1.200 lawsuits has scared all of the other 2,800, thinking they would all be attacked. I have tried to assure them that was not true, and I have called the attention of some of them to the statement contained in the hearings before this committee that they were about through bring- ing suits. I have a reference to that here. Last July, I think it 1s, the Department of Justice or its representatives indicated that they were pretty near through bringing suits, but still the people that have not been sued are laboring under this fear—whether it is utterly un- 2396 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. justified or not is immaterial, because it is a fear—and therefore they are appealing to Congress for some relief, so that they can feel sure that when they build a house on their land and break up the land that the land will not be confiscated or taken away from them. The point that I wish to inquire about from this witness, not as a matter of fact, but simply as advisory to Congress in framing leg- islation, is as to the beneficial effects that the settling of all litigation and the developing of the country would have upon the remaining Indians, and with that explanation I would simply like to proceed shortly. : The Cuairman. You may proceed. Mr. Srzenrrson. I notice you referred the other day, Mr. Valen- ttine, to a Lake Mohonk conference, and I have recently received a copy of the record of the last Lake Mohonk conference, in which there is a paper upon the subject of Indian affairs by Mr. Meritt, which I think is full of wise suggestions. I want to call your atten- tion to the fourth paragraph as applicable to the situation in White Earth. It is as follows: 4. There should be no closed Indian reservations. Every Indian should be hampered with the fewest restrictions consistent with his best interests. Prac- tical white farmers should be encouraged to locate and live in the Indian country and buy surplus Indian lands. The homes and farms of these white farmers would be models for the Indians. Besides, these farmers would estab- lish free schools, build roads and churches, and bring other civilizing agencies to bear on the community that not only would result in lifting the Indian to a higher social status, but would greatly increase the value of his property and teach by example the benefit and the necessity of labor. The Indians need to be taught the folly and degradation of idleness and the beauty and glory of hard work. I desire to ask you if you concur in the opinion of your assistant? Mr. Vatentive. I think that is a splendid omen of the millenium. I hope to see it come about as soon as possible. Mr. Sreenerson. I do not consider it entirely millenial—— Mr. Vatzentine. I agree with that. Mr. Sreenerson. As applied to White Earth. I said earlier in the discussion here that, as I understood it, most of these allotments still remain Indian lands—that is, lands that are either held as allot- ments by full bloods or by minors; that those lands are interspersed mostly in 80-acre tracts with lands that either are held by farmers or by speculators that sell to farmers if they had the opportunity. So that the development of the country would bring about a develop- ment that would be beneficial to the Indians in advancement of civil- wation. Is not that your understanding of the situation ? Mr. Vatentine. I think that statement is generally correct. _Mr. Srzenerson. And with regard to schools—of course, I am simply asking for your views to aid us in legislation. I am not going to hold you to that very strictly. Mr. VatentTine. You are very kind indeed, sir. Mr. Sternerson. In regard to schools, is it not your opinion that a public school under the laws of Minnesota and maintained by the school fund and the local taxation, where the children of the whites attend, would be better for the Indian children than Indian schools? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir; we are pushing that policy as hard as we can. ‘ Mr. Steenerson. I have talked with several young men of Indian and mixed Indian blood on White Earth and other reservations, and WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2397 they have all expressed that opinion, that the children attending the ordinary poe schools would be very much more benefited and given a better chance in the world than those that associated simply with the Indian children. Mr. Vatentine. I think it is only fair to say that while we have in our Indian schools some of the best industrial facilities in the country, I still think it is a better thing for an Indian child to go to school with a white child. if Mr, Srernerson. Yes. A large number—of course, I do not want to assume that you know anything about this; it is simply hearsay— of the allotments that are in question in these lawsuits are vacant, un- occupied lands, so far as agricultural improvements are concerned. Mr. VatentiIne. As you say, I do not know anything about that. Mr. Sreenerson. You do not know even from hearsay ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think that has come to my attention in any way. I would assume, of course, that as a good many minors’ lands are in dispute that those possibly would be unoccupied. Mr. Steenerson. I think there is evidence before the committee on that point. . Mr. Varentine. Very likely there is. Mr. Sreenerson. The Indians that have been emancipated, so to speak, whose restrictions have been removed, of course have to pay taxes, as far as White Earth is concerned. They have to pay taxes on their property, the same as the white people, and they are com- plaining about also contributing to the Federal Government’s man- agement of affairs and also as to the Government schools. Mr, Vatentine. That is one reason I hope to see the segregation of tribal funds take place as soon as possible. Mr. Sreenerson. Yes. I introduced a bill more for the purpose of starting a discussion on the subject than anything else, pursuant to several requests by these same Indians who have been emancipated, for a segregation of their funds. I drew it to embrace the same class of people who had already been emancipated, so far as their real ‘property is concerned, because I assume that when a man can handle real estate he is competent to handle his personal estate. But I do not know that I would stand by segregating it as to all unless it was left in the Interior Department to his credit. Mr. Vatentine. That was what I had in mind, the segregation on the books of the Treasury. Mr. Sreenerson. There could be no objection to segregating the funds of the individual Indians and leaving them as an account to the credit of each one. Mr. VaLentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. And as fast as they are shown to be able to do business for themselves, of course, the money could be turned over to them. Mr. Vatentine. Precisely as when white boys growing up reach the age of 21 or 25 they can do it. . ; Mr. Sreenerson. As I understand it, that is part of the Indian policy that is advocated. It has not been adopted, but it has been advocated by your bureau for some time? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. That is also the policy advocated by the Board of Indian Commissioners, is it not? 2398 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I think so; yes. =: Mr. Sreenrrson. Speaking of the removal of the restrictions of 1906, the trouble-with that law, as I understand it, was that it pro- vided no machinery to determine who was a mixed blood and who ~was full blood, within the meaning of the law, and also it made nu distinction as to being competent or incompetent. Mr. Vatentine. I think those were the two great defects. Mx. Sreenerson. If they had been covered, then, the passage of that law would be in harmony with the general policy, would it not? Mr. Vactentine. Except that it still drew the blood line, which J do not believe in drawing. Mr. Sreenerson. But still the blood line had been drawn by mak- ing a roll of them or as a part of the executive provisions of the law. “Mr, VaLentine. Yes; except that the removal of restrictions I de not think should have taken place on the blood line. Mr. Srzenzrson. Speaking about the blood line, that is not the first time the blood line has been drawn between mixed and full bloods, is it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I think it was drawn before that date in Oklahoma. Mr. Sreenrrson. Well, as to White Earth Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know about the White Earth Indians. Mr. Sreenerson. Did you not introduce’ evidence, or were you not present, when they introduced evidence here in regard to the treaty of 1854 which provided for scrip for mixed bloods? Mr. Vatentine. I do not remember whether or not I was. Mr. Steenerson. Are you not familiar with that treaty? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. That has escaped your attention? Mr. Vartentine. No; I am not familiar with it. I do not know that it has escaped me. Mr. Srzenerson. On this subject of drawing the blood line, I think it is important to refer to the fact that the treaty of 1854 did draw _ the blood line. Have you never examined that point? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. Are you aware of the fact that the constitution of Minnesota drew the blood line as long ago as 1858? Mr. Vatentine. With all due deference, I should say so much worse for the constitution of Minnesota. Mr. Sreenerson. That constitution was approved by the Congress when Minnesota was admitted into the Union. Mr. Vauentine. I still feel that it was a mistake. ' _ Mr. Sreenerson. I would say that the constitution of Minnesota is simply this: I may not quote it correctly, but I will give you the substance of it, to show you that the distinction between full bloods and mixed bloods is an old distinction. Section 1 of Article VII, I think, in the constitution of Minnesota, defines who shall be voters, who shall be electors, and I think the second clause provides that Indians of mixed blood and Indian people are voters without any restrictions, and then, third, Indians of full blood who have adopted the habits and customs of civilization may vote under the constitution of Minnesota. I simply refer to this to show you that the distinction between mixed bloods and full bloods was not a new thing in 1906. . WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2399 Mr. Vatentine. That may well be, but I can not help feeling it is just as much of a mistake. Mr. Steenerson. As a matter of fact, I believe that there is a roll of mixed bloods under the treaty of 1854 in your office, and I would request that you look up to see if it is there. I have also noticed that before 1906 in the official reports that have been printed in these hearings in regard to the Herrick sale, in regard to Inspector Mc- Laughlin and other inspectors’ reports there, that they speak of a full-blood line and mixed-blood line of applicants for allotment, and councils of full bloods and mixed bloods. I assume from that that there must have been some such line drawn before 1906. The CuHairman. Mr. Steenerson, can you not abbreviate this mat- ter ¢ : Mr. Sreenerson. Surely. I was simply calling attention to the fact that the distinction in the amendment of 1906 was not new. Now, I want to ask if you are aware, Mr. Valentine, of the general recommendation in the Commissioner of Indian Affairs’ Report of 1905, immediately preceding the adoption of the Clapp amendment? Have you ever read that? Mr. Vauentine. Oh, yes; indeed. I do not recall—— Mr. Sreenerson. It is a very strong advocate of the removal of restrictions and turning the Indian over to his own resources. Mr. VatenTINE. As a general policy? Mr. Steenerson. Yes. Of course, you assume that we Congress- men read these reports that you annually make? Mr. Vatentine. I beg your pardon, I make no such assumption. I wish some of you did. Mr. Sreenerson. In view of the suggestion of the chairman, per- haps that is all I have, unless we get some of these documents. I do not wish to weary the committee. I was trying to get something ‘ tangible that might relieve this situation. Mr. Vatentine. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, if I may. Mr, Sreenerson. Just wait a moment. Would you also examine, in connection with the Department of Justice officials, the bill that is now pending before the Committee on Indian Affairs in regard to issuing patents to these undisputed allotments? Mr. Vatentine. You mean this bill you were just speaking about—that you read just a little while ago? Mr. Sreenerson. No; I speak of the bill lately introduced, two or three weeks ago, which provides for the issuing of patents upon those- allotments that are not in litigation, simply carrying out the request that was made by those people last year that are afraid—or at least they claim that their title is clouded, by indirection. I simply request you to look into that to see about it. oe Mr. Vatenttne. I shall be very glad to read that bill, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. That is all. : ; Mr. Vatentine. I just wanted to say, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. Steenerson has finished, that I hope neither he nor any other indi- vidual Member of Congress will feel that way about it. There seems to have been a little feeling that they should draw certain inferences from some of my testimony. I hope that they will appreciate the distinction between a general statement such as | made to the committee about existing conditions, and the proof of 2400 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. anything either right or wrong as to any particular conditions in any particular case. Mr. Sternerson. Excuse me, I thought I was through, but just on that point, I should like to ask you this: You did not confine yourself entirely to abstract statements, as I recollect. I have here the transcript of your testimony from the official report. Mr. Vauentine. That is what I wanted to bring out, because-— Mr. Sreenrrson. I will read that to you. Mr. Vatentine. That is what I wanted to bring out, Mr. Chair- man, because if there were any even very indirect basis for such an inference I want to relieve the gentleman’s mind. The Cuarrman. That is all right. Mr. Sreenerson. I read from page 28 of the transcript made by the reporter: Mr. VALENTINE. Why, I know very little about the case, because I had not passed on it myself until it was brought up to me yesterday; but in outline it is this: A gentleman, who, I assume, is in rather large stock interests in Texas, has some pastures in the southern part of the Osage Indian Reservation, «nd other lessees leased pastures in the other part of the reservation, etc. Now, that refers to a specific case in answer to Mr. George’s question. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that was a general illustration. Mr. Sreenerson. You intended to refer there to some particular Congressman, did you not? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think I mentioned anybody by name. Mr. Sreenerson. No; you did not mention anybody by name, but you can mention them by name, I suppose? Mr. Vatentine. I should not want to, because it would lead to a wrong inference. Mr. Sreenerson. You had a certain Congressman in your mind when you referred to this Texas case? Mr. Vatentine. There were certain Congressmen who had brought certain gentlemen into the office, and had acted merely as introducers. Mr. Sreenzrson. In that case a Congressman had been to your office and introduced some of these cattlemen ? Mr. Vatentinz. What I mean was, that I was not putting that up in any sense that there was anything wrong in the relation of those Congressmen to that transaction. Mr. Sreenerson. I am glad to hear that, because I have got the wrong impression of that. You also stated about lobbies in this connection. ay Mr. Vazentine. I think the committee will recall that I made this general statement, that I was not passing on the motives, or attrib- uting motives, or even saying whether the thing was right or wrong. I was simply stating what existed. Influence may be either right or wrong. Mr. Sreenerson. You would not want to say whether right or wrong? Mr. Vatentinr. Which one? Mr. Stzenzrson. The one you had in mind when you answered Mr. George in regard to big interests. Mr. Vatentinz. You mean the general question? Mr. Sreenerson. Yes. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2401 Mr. Vatentine. No, indeed; I would not want to indicate whether either right or wrong. Mr. Sreenerson. You state that the lobby is not unknown in Washington. aa Mr. Vatentine. I think that is generally conceded. . i i STeenEeRsoN. Do you mean corrupt lobby, or a legitimate obby ? Mr. Vatentine. I was not passing on the point of whether it is legitimate or illegitimate. Mr. Sreenerson. So that no inference of wrong could be drawn from anything you said? Mr. Vatentine. Any inference of anything wrong drawn from what I said would be entirely unjustified from what was in my mind. Mr. Sreenerson. In response to the questions in regard to the big business surrounding Indian reservations; you brought out the fact that there was a lobby. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Sreenerson. So, of course, I concluded that you meant a lobby. My, Vatentine. I think big business has its right to be heard just as much as little business. Mr. Steenerson. Just as much as these commercial clubs up at Waubun and Mahnomen? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely. I want to make it very plain that when Congressmen bring constituents into the office I do not hold the Con- gressmen responsible for what the constituents may ultimately de- velop to be or not to be. Mr. Steenerson. Will you also make the same qualification as to what you said when you referred to commercial clubs? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely. Mr. Sreenerson. You de not want to condemn the activities of commercial clubs in Minnesota or elsewhere? Mr. Vaentine. No, sir; I think the committee understood my position. It is just this: That there are hundreds of different kinds of influences undoubtedly surrounding both Congress and the depart- ments. I am not saying whether those influences are just or unjust, righteous or unrighteous. I am simply stating that they exist. We also know, as a general proposition, that some of them probably are not as good as others, but I am not passing on that point. It would be entirely unfair, entirely unwarranted, to proceed from that gen- eral statement to any particular case without investigating that par- ticular case on its own merits. ae Mr. Sreenerson. Was it not an unfortunate thing in the correct understanding of what you said to assume as I did, perhaps, that you thought that all interests surrounding an Indian reservation were hostile to the true interests of the Indians, that there was a necessary antagonism between the genera] welfare of the country, and the business of the country, and the Indians’ welfare? Mr. Vatentine. I am mighty glad you brought that point out, because if the committee will bear with me for just a few minutes I should like to say something about that. As I have already in- dicated to the committee, the 300,000 Indians in the country are sur- rounded and interpenetrated by 3,000,000 white persons, singly and in all kinds of groups. There is a perfectly natural tendency for that great excess of numbers, and, on the whole, great excess of 2402 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. force, and in our modern economical life great excess of intelligence; That is, as to our modern economical conditions, as the white men have more knowledge of how to get along in the world than the Indians have, that there should be a lot of overslaughing of the In- dians, and the conscience of the State and Nation must be awakened to protect the Indians from those people. On the other hand, and to that extent, there is as I said in one of my Lake Mohonk speeches— I should like to put that into the record if I can find it—I should like to set off, if I may, just about five lines for insertion at this point—— The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Vatentrne. In which I say that the evils surrounding the reservation are so great, so diverse, so insistent, that nothing but the widest publicity will protect Indians in Indian reservations from these adverse forces; but I also want to make equally clear that, on the other hand, the Indians must live in the future as neighbors among white men, and any Indian policy which starts out by setting the Indians against whites or whites against Indians, or acknowledg- ing that these evils themselves, no matter how great they may be, are of the essence of the situation instead of being, however great, a temporary evil, anything that assumes what would be a very evil as- sumption in its working out, because if they have got to live together as neighbors the thing to do is to get them into a neighborly frame of mind. Mr. Leupp began that policy, and I have been trying all I could to continue it. The old idea of many Indian superintendents was that if they were safeguarding the interests of the Indians, it was up to them to make an enemy of every white man in the sur- rounding country. What we try to do is, while standing like a stone wall against all these terrific acts of aggression and wrong doing, at the same time to get into touch with the real conscience, the best elements of the community on and around Indian reserva- tions. Mr. Sreenrrson. How do you carry on this publicity? Mr. Vauentine. That is one of our great misfortunes, that we have no organized Indian publicity. : Mr. Srernrrson. This Lake Mohonk conference was one of the instrumentalities, was it not? - Vatentine. That helps. An investigation like this is a god- send. Mr. Steenerson. And the publication of these reports of the Lake Mohonk conference is part of the publicity? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. Mr. Srvenerson. And the investigation through the newpapers reaches the public? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; but the American people have so much to think of besides Indians that the publicity the Indians get is very fragmentary and not by any means efficient. Mr. Sreenerson. So you think there ought to be more of that publicity carried on through your bureau than you are now able to carry on? Mr. Varentine. I think there ought to be a very big publicity department in the Indian Bureau. Mr. Sreenerson. In that way they could influence public opinion? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2403 Mr. Vatentins. That would acquaint the public with the real facts instead of leaving it to— eg STeENERSON. And then it would have its effect on the legisla- tion? Mr. Vatentine. The legislation and administration. Mr. Sreenerson. So that the Indian Bureau would then be in possession of means to serve the Indians both in legislation and administration ? Mr. VauentiIne. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Is that all? Mr. Steenerson. No; not all. Mr. Vatenting. That is all I had to say, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Steenerson. I should just like to ask one or two questions about this lobby. You do not consider it improper when an official approaches a Congressman about legislation, do you—for instance, the representative of a department? Mr. Vatentine. It depends on who he is. The Caarrman. In what way is that of interest to this committee? How is that relevant to anything before the committee? Mr. Sreenerson. He has testified here about—— The CHairman. We do not care about all of Mr. Valentine’s opin- ion of everything under the sun. Mr. Sreenrrson. He has testified about lobbying. I wanted to find out what—— : The CHarrman. Point out, if you will, where it is relevant to any- thing we have to do. If it is I shall be very glad to let it go in; but if not, I think we shall have to draw the line somewhere. Mr. Sreenerson. It in general relates to the activities of the de- partment in relation to legislation now pending in Congress and matters pending before the committee. The Cuamman. You will not be interfered with in asking ques- tions concerning lobbying in connection with the Indian Bureau; but as to lobbying generally, I think that is beside the question. Mr. Sreenerson. In view of what the chairman has said, I think I may be permitted to ask if your department or your bureau inter- views Senators and Representatives about pending legislation. You do not consider that anything improper, do you? Mr. Vatenrine. I have thought that as a rule we should confine ourselves to answering and taking advantage of the courtesies that the Congress extends to us in submitting bills to us for report. Mr. Steenerson. As I understand it toon some place in this hear- ing here, the Department of Justice has gone further than that, and I suppose you are cognizant of it? The Cuarrman. If they have gone too far, you had better take it to Brother Henry’s committee, next door. Mr. Sreenerson. I am not saying that they went too far; but, as you understand it, it would be perfectly proper for them to send for a Congressman on the floor and ask him to support measures pending in Congress? Mr. Vatentine. I think that would be 4 question, Mr. Steenerson, for Congress to decide—as to whether or not it was proper. Mr. Sreenerson. You have not done that? Mr. Vatentine. I, as a rule have confined myself to reporting on bills, and if I felt that there was anything particularly difficult I have put the matter before the Secretary, my chief. 2404 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Boron. Is it charged that anybody in the Department of Jus- (ice has done it? Mr. Sreenerson. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. I thought that the implication in your question looked that way. Mr. Sreenerson. I think it appears in the hearing; I will call your attention to it later on. That is where I got it. I can find it. Mr. Burcu. If it does, I should like to see it. I missed it. I thought that I had been here all the while. Mr. Srrrnerson. I am perfectly willing to take counsel’s statement that he has not sent for Members of Congress to interview them on this. Mr. Burcs. Me? Mr. Steenerson. Yes. The Cuairman. Gentlemen, we can not spend time for that. If there is any other relevant matter, Mr. Steenerson, proceed with it. Mr. Srernerson. I believe, with the exception of what Mr. Valen- tine is going to bring from the records about timber, that is all. The Cuarrman. Mr. Leupp, you wish to ask some questions, I un- derstand. Are you prepared to do so now? Mr. Leuprr. I find that I left my memoranda home. I brought an- other book with me. The Cuatrman. Are you ready, Mr. Burch? Mr. Burcu. Yes; I will take up the time dr stop now; just as you desire. The Cuarrman. If we could get through with Mr. Valentine on this matter this evening, it would be well to do it; but I do not know that we can, on account of Mr. Leupp’s inability to go on. You had some documents that you wanted to go in in this con- nection ? Mr. Lever. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Will you be prepared to do that in the morning? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Georcr. Where would they come in, Mr. Leupp? Mr. Lever. I thought at the close of Mr. Valentine’s statement. Mr. Grorce. Yes; when he comes off the stand. _ Mr. Levrr. I thought that then we would simply insert these mat- ters with a few words of explanation. The Cuarrman. Mr. Steenerson, I wish to mention at this time, so that you might know what our views are, that I shall write you a formal answer to the letter that I received from you, in which you name five witnesses at or near Detroit, Minn., whom you want brought to Washington. The subcommittee does not look with favor on the request. Some of those witnesses—and I can not state with certainty now how many—appeared before the committee at De- troit and testified. It seems to me that it would look most illogical and unbusinesslike for the committee to ask the House to send it out there to the witnesses to save expense, and after having gone out there to bring the witnesses here to Washington and do the very thing we went there to avoid. Mr. Sreenerson. The necessity for the witnesses is because the in- vestigation ‘at Minneapolis and Detroit touched upon matters that 2 in the original statement and could not have been antici- pated. : WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2405 The Cuairman. That does not-occur to me as sufficient reason and, in addition to what I have stated, there are other reasons. Mr. Sreenerson. The hearings have not yet been printed, so we can not know. The Cuarrman. There are other reasons, too, in addition to what I have said. Mr. Dennis, who used to be associated with you, was present at those hearings. Mr. Sreenerson. He was not associated with me. He was my secretary. The CHamman. He was your private secretary, and, as I under- stood it, assumed to act in some degree in your behalf there? Mr. Sreenerson. Not that I am aware of. I do not think that he assumed anything of the kind. He never advised me that he did. The CHarrman. His attitude showed his intense interest in you. whether with your knowledge or without it I do not know. Mr. Sreenerson. I am very glad to hear that. The Cuarrman. In addition to the things I have said it is more than likely that some of the things you have in mind are already in the record, and we could not consent to bringing witnesses here at your suggestions to duplicate evidence they may have already given. Mr. S1eenerson. I will read the record as soon as it comes out. The Cuarrman. And in addition to that, the appropriation which the House made for us is probably expended, and perhaps more than expended by this time. So we have no means to bring those wit- nesses here. But we are willing, if you wish it, that you bring the matter up in the House, and ask the House to order them here. Mr. Sreenerson. The chairman knows that I tried to get as big an appropriation as I could. The Cuarruan. I am not blaming anyone; I am only stating the fact. And I would say further that if those gentlemen come before the committee here the coramittee will hear them to any reasonable extent. Mr. Steenerson. Especially in regard to Mr. Hall. It struck me, from what has been said while I was present here the last few days, that it would be extremely unjust not to send for him. The Cuarrman. The committee’s position with Mr. Hall is the same as the committee’s position with Mr. . Mr. Hall was in that neighborhood: The St. Paul and Minneapolis papers published very intelligent reports of the testimony before the committee from day to day. Mr. Hall must have seen it. I feel confident—I have a right to assume that he did see it. If there was anything in it that he thought he could explain he could have come before the committee and made his explanation. He can do so yet if he wishes. ae Mr. Sreenerson. I do not regard the investigation as a criticism of Mr. Hall. : ented The Cuamrman. You do not see any commendations of him in it, do you? Do you see anything in it that boosted him as an Indian worker ? . Mr. Srernerson. An investigation does not necessarily mean com- mendation or condemnation. An investigation may be both favorable or unfavorable. I do not want to assume that the committee, because they investigated Mr. Hall, was hostile to him. I assume, on the con- trary, that they were perfectly fair. 2406 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. There is testimony reflecting on Mr. Hall as an Indian agent. Mr. Sreenerson. I have nothing to do with that. I have never communicated with Mr. Hall, but it strikes me that a man who had been for so many years associated with the work of the Indian Com- missioner, and who was retained for some time after the White Earth litigation started, should have been subpcenaed and he ought to have been examined. That the department regarded him with hostility should have been all the more reason why this committee, desiring to be fair to both sides, ought to have subpcenaed him, unless they were hearing just one side of the question. The Cuarrman. I do not know that the committee looked on him with hostility. I have no knowledge on that point. There is testi- mony in the record tending to show that Mr. Hall was appointed a special commissioner—first a commissioner, and later a special com- missioner—with reference to the removal of the Mille Lac Indians from Mille Lac to White Earth. The records of the bureau are in evidence showing the amounts he received, the length of time he was occupied, and the number of Indians he removed. Those are simply records of facts, and they speak for themselves. Mr. Sreenerson. Mr. Chairman, The Cuarrman. Just a moment. I assume that Mr. Hall knows those facts, and if he has any explanation to make of them we are willing to hear that, but I do not know what necessity there is for explanation of them. The record of the amount of money paid out is here. The amount of work he did is here. He removed 50 or 51 Indians in two years, I think. Mr. Burcu. In 21 months, The Cuarrmay. A little less than two years. He was dropped from the rolls because he was not accomplishing anything. Mr. Moore has stated as a matter of judgment only that he could have done in a few months the work that Mr. Hall had been trying to do so long. To that extent the testimony reflects upon his executive ability; but we are not investigating Mr. Hall, we are investigating the Indian Bureau. Mr. Sreenerson. That is the trouble, if I may be allowed .to make a suggestion. I have never had any correspondence with regard to the White Earth matter with Mr. Hall, but it struck me from the meager reports that I saw in the press that the facts brought out, which have now been briefly referred to by the chairman, were prob- ably some of the half truths that are so easily brought out by bring- ing records from the department and leaving out the most essential things. He has been referred to here in an uncomplimentary manner. His work has been disparaged, and he has been condemned. I do. not suppose, seeing that he has never had any notice, that it would be binding upon anybedy, but—— The Cuarrman. Why not? Mr. Srrenerson. Because he has not been notified of the hearing. The Cuamman. You said it was not binding on anybody. Mr. Srernerson. Yes. The Cuarrman. Why not, if the Indian Bureau employed him and the Indian Bureau permitted him to stay 21 months, monkeying with the removal of 50 Indians in all that time, and paid him thousands WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2407 of dollars for doing it? Those facts reflect on the Indian Bureau. pod 3 is the Indian Bureau we are investigating, not Mr. Darwin all. ae Srzenerson. Of course, necessarily you are investigating Mr. Hall. The Cuarrman. No; necessarily we are not investigating him. He is in the way. He simply got in the way, and it is for him to look out. He is merely an incident; nothing more. Mr. Sreznerson. I desire to say that I have the highest regard for the fairness of the chairman as displayed in this matter and I have no doubt that if the other side of the question in regard to the service of Mr. Hall appeared there would be a different view taken by the chairman. It is not conclusively established here that this removal work was the only thing to be done. I will say that, in a eneral way that, in the same way that I know other public men, T have known Mr. Darwin Hall for about 30 years. Thereupon the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, March 21, 1912, at 10.30 o’clock a. m. COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Thursday, March 21, 1912. The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. Present, Representatives George and Mondell; and also parties interested, as heretofore noted in the record. The CuarrMaN. Judge Burch, is there any reason you know of why Mr. Leupp should not take up his questioning of the witness at this time ? Mr. Burcu. I have much questioning to do of Mr. Valentine; I do not know as I will ever let him go. The CuarRMAN. Then Mr. Leupp had better get a word in before you exhaust him. You may proceed, Mr. Leupp, when you are ready. TESTIMONY OF ROBERT G. VALENTINE—Continued. Mr. Leupr. Mr. Valentine, were you present when I was on the witness stand the other day. Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Lever. Have you read the record of my testimony ? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Leupp. I want to say that in matters personal to myself I want you to dismiss all delicacy to avoid wounding my sensitiveness. I have not any when it comes to this, but want the facts. I also want to say to the committee that any comments that may enter into my questions or into this talk with Mr. Valentine, I want the committee to understand are made under the obligation of my oath. When you were my private secretary, where did you make your headquarters ? Mr. Vatentine. At Washington, sir. Mr. Leupp. In the Indian Office ? Mr. Vatentine. And in your room. Mr. Leupp. Were you close to me? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Lever. How close ? Mr. VaLentine. Right across the desk. There was one large desk, and you sat on one side and I sat on the other. / Mr. Leupp. So you could hear anything you wished to that took place on my side? Mr. Vaventine. Yes. Mr. Leupr. Were you free to stay in my office during all visits and listen to the conversation ? 2408 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2409 Mr. VaLenTine. Absolutely. Mr. Levrpr. You were not required to leave the room? Mr. VALENTINE. No. Mr. Lever. Did I talk things over freely with you? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. So you were constantly in touch with what I was doing and trying to do, and were given every advantage for becoming ac- quainted with those matters ? Mr. VaLENTINE. Yes, sir; as far as my stenographic work permitted. I think any eee will tell you that when one is taking dicta- tion he does not get all the sense of the relations of the things he takes. Mr. Levurr. You were in a position to judge whether I was running my ones essentially to the best of such powers as I had, were you not Mr. VALENTINE. Most decidedly. Mr. Lzvepr. If pon had reached the conclusion that I was not doing my honest level best, would you have stayed with me? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. i Mr. Lever. When you were about to visit a reservation did I try to instruct you or advise you or convey to you in any way my desire for a report of one character or another on anything or anybody you found there; if so, when and under what circumstances ? Mr. VaLenTINE. You never advised me to any such effect, sir. Mr. Lever. Did you know of my doing differently with any per- son under me who went to a reservation? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Lever. Or, after he came back, did I offer any suggestions as to what the report should be, either in substance or in tone? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; on the contrary, I recall you began the fight on what we contend is one of the most wicked curses—‘‘ doing what the Commissioner wants.’”’ That, Mr. Chairman, is one of the big curses of the Indian Bureau and probably of other bureaus of the Government. The Coarrman. Just explain what that is. Mr. VaLEnTINE. Yes. y, there seemed to have been under the old bureaucratic commission an idea that when a commissioner came into office he had certain ideas about things—not only as to what was right or wrong, but his policies were to be carried out in rather an arbitrary way. I do not want to take the committee’s time, but a clerk has frequently come to me and said, ‘‘I do not know what you want in this matter,” and I said, ‘‘I want you to follow your idea of what is to be done—what is right; otherwise, I have no policy.” Well, that has left them rather in the air and sometimes they have suggested, ‘‘ We felt if we knew what you wanted, we could write this letter.” 1 said, ‘‘ Write it exactly as you would if you were Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, and when it comes to me if I do not like it I will tell you so, and tell you why.” Mr. Leupp. Was that my plan? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, that was the fight you began and that I have been struggling with ever since. Mr. Leupp. That is, you are carrying on the same plan? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. ; . Mr. Leupp. Coming down to the basic matters, was that an incentive to the clerks to think, instead of simply taking orders ? 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——57 9410 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Luurr. Did you ever figure out how many trades and profes- sions the commissioner would have to know in order to run his office without depending on expert advice at any time? ; Mr. VALENTINE. I do not think I have ever figured it out; but it would be very large. The CuarrMAN. Before passing from that, give us some idea of what it means, in a more specific way. What trades and professions would he have to know? Expand the answer in some way to indicate what you mean by the suggestion, or ask some other question to develop it. Mr. Leurr. Well, the line I was following was whether the com- missioner would not need to be a farmer, an irrigationist, an engineer, an architect and builder, a lawyer, a physician, a sanitarian, and an expert in other things like that. . VALENTINE. He would have to be all those things, sir, and I think I remember once of making the statement that as far as I could discover there was only one thing that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs did not have to know at first hand, and that was that he did not have to be an expert in the manufacturing business, but that has now been gone into in the Menominie case. Mr. Leupp. Do you do field investigation yourself now ? Mr. VaLentine. No, sir; not in any detailed sense. Mr. Leupp. Or broad sense. _ Mr. Varentine. In the broad sense of the word it is impossible for the commissioner to do that. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember my practice of dropping in suddenly at agencies, without warning ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupr. What was my purpose in doing that ? Mr. VatentIne. I should say largely it was to get a running catch of the thing in its everyday dress, so to speak. Mr. Leurr. Do you remember my attitude toward investigations of my own acts and the acts of the office? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Lever. What was it? Mr. VaLentine. Absolutely a separation from them in every sense. Mr. Leupp. Did I encourage, or discourage, the investigation of everything that I was in any way concerned in or was directing ? Mr. VALENTINE. You encouraged it. Mr. Leupp. Was I accessible to anybody who had public business to transact for the benefit of the Indians. Mr. VaLentine. Always, sir. Mr. Lever. If anyone complained that matters were not going right, did I put anything in the way of an investigation ? Mr. Vavcentine. I never knew you to, sir. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember anything about the inspecting force when you came into the office ? Mr. VatentinE. Why, yes. I think I have already testified that most of the so-called inspectors were busy with special investigations, and consequently, being tied up in that, they were not available for the ounce-of-prevention theory. Mr. Leupp. Well, do you remember the size of the force ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2411 Mr. VALENTINE. Roughly, I think my recollection is that there were five or six oe agents and five or six supervisors; maybe a few more or less; I do not recall exactly. Mr. Levurr. What is the present size of the inspecting force, in- cluding all kinds ? Mr. VALENTINE. Well, including all kinds, it numbers over half a hundred—over 50. Mr. Leupp. Of the inspecting force that I inherited from my pred- ecessor did I sweep it all away or keep it and try it out? Mr. VALENTINE. You kept it and tried it out, if I recall correctly; I do not remember exactly about that. Mr. Leupp. As fast as any of the old members dropped out did I exercise care or not in the choice of their successors ¢ Mr. VALENTINE. You exercised a great deal of care. Mr. Levurr. Did I have any special plan in view in the selection of this force ? Mr. Vatentine. As IJ recall it you tried to find men fitted for some particular line of work. For instance, if you had some difficult accounting problems in the fiéld, you tried to find a good accountant for them, and you tried to find men to tackle the difficult human problems, and ‘so on. Mr. Leupp. Did I try to get men for this purpose who were new to the whole subject or those who were familiar with the conditions on the reservations and the way things were there, and so forth, and thus who would know where to look for anything wrong ? Mr. VaLEnTINE. I recall that quite distinctly, because I recall your policies and mine differed on that somewhat. You wanted to get men familiar with the Indian affairs. Mr. Levpr. Do you remember any effort that I made to induce inspecting officers to advise agents and superintendents, instead as merely criticizing ? Mr. VALENTINE. Well, I do not know that I recall any specific things, but I know that was your policy, to make them’ constructive helpers rather than destructive critics. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember anything I did to try to keep up a constant exchange of the personnel between the office in Washington and the outside service ? Mr. VALENTINE. You had a policy which I have been very ere following to an extent of causing men in the office to go into the field and men in the field to come into the office. Mr. Leurr. Why did I adopt that plan? Mr. Vatentine. To get the blood circulating through the service. Mr. Leupp. Had I any specific purpose, or had you any: specific urpose, in view? Perhaps I can put that question a little better: st the old times, what was the relation between the office and the field ? Mr. VaLentineE. Rather antagonistic. Mr. Burcu. What ‘‘field’”’ do you mean, Mr. Leupp ? Mr. Leupp. The superintendents and agents. Mr. Burcu. I did not understand whether you meant the super- intendents and agents, or the inspectors. ; j Mr. Leupp. The people who are doing the work with the Indians directly. 2412 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. It would include agents, superintendents, inspec- tors, and all those, would it not? Mr. Lever. Yes. The inspectors’ force, I suppose, would probably belong in the field force; but I should rather distinguish that as a ‘‘traveling force.’ The field men were the ones who would come directly in contact with the Indians. The Cuarrman. They were permanently in the field ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. That is, on the reservations ? Mr. Lever. On thereservations. Do you remember a special agent by the name of Downs? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. mu Mr. Leupp. Do you remember anything about his qualities, par- ticularly ? Mr. VaLenTINE. Well, I have no very distinct recollections about him; but I remember that he was rather a large man physically. I should say that he was absolutely honest, but not very quick intellectually, and that we used him more for taking charge of agencies and making rolls, and things of that sort; and that his judgment might not be absolutely sound. Mr. Lever. Do you know Inspector McLaughlin? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Lever. What is your judgment, founded on experience, of his acquaintance with the Indians and their methods, and his ability to mix with them and talk to them and draw out their ideas ? Mr. VatentIne. I think he is peobehly the most expert person in the country on that particular line. Mr. Leupp. Would you consider Mr. Downs in the same class with Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Leupr. How many hours did I spend at the office every day, during the season I was in Washington ? Mr. VaLenTINE. Well, you got there every morning before nine and hardly ever ate any lunch, except an apple at your desk; and you left anywhere between 5.30 and 7 at night. Mr. Leupp. Then, your impression was not that so far as you saw me there my job was a “‘soft snap’? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Leurr. How much of my time was consumed by visitors ? Mr. VaLentine. A very large bulk of it. Mr. Leurr. How did 1 manage, then, to go through the papers that required my personal attention ? Mr. VALENTINE. Mostly by night work. Mr. Leupp. Did I carry them home, or use them in the office? “Mr. VaLentine. You carried them home. _ Mr. Lever. Do you remember how large the office mail was at the time you came in the service and for some time afterwards ? Mr. VaLentINE. Well, I should say, as a guess (it would not be very valuable as testimony)—but I should say as a guess four or five hundred letters a day. Mr. Leupp. Do you recall what was done, chiefly by your efforts, to reduce this burden? Mr. VaLEnTINE. Well, we tried to improve the organization of the office and to make more people responsible for various branches of the work, so that the commissioner would have some time to think WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2413 and deal with the important questions. In other words, the policy was, as has always been under the freedom that you gave me, to use my OM efforts to bring the cream to the top. r. Leupp. Up to about my last year in office, who had to do the signing of all official letters, orders, and papers ? Mr. Vaentrine. Either the commissioner or the assistant com- missioner. Mr. Lever. When a letter came addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, what became of it ? Mr. VaLentine. It went to the files and thence to the divisions. In the old days, I believe they were opened by the assistant commis- sioner and later on the practice was changed so that the letters went to the files first and were then charged out to the respective divisions, and thence to the proper clerks and did not reach the commissioner until the answer was prepared. Mr. Levrp. I was referring in this particular case to about the time that you came in, and for a year or so afterwards, before the changes. Mr, VaLEeNTINE. At that time I think the assistant commissioner opened the mail at his desk, and when he was away I think the com- missioner had to open the mail. The CHarrMan. Who was the assistant commissioner then ? Mr. VALENTINE. Maj. Charles F. Larrabee. I think he came in about the same time Mr. Leupp did. Mr. Leupp. What course did the letters take then ? Mr. VaLentine. I do not know just what the course was then, but I think that after being opened at the commissioner’s desk, or the assistant commissioner’s desk, they went to the files and were there briefed on the back, under the old-fashioned filing system, and then they took after that the same course they take today. Mr. Leupp. When a letter came addressed to Francis E. Leupp, or F. E. Leupp, what became of it ? Mr. Vatentine. I think you had a custom that there be brought to your attention anything addressed to you by name. Mr. Levurr. Did I encourage, or discourage, people from sending complaints and letters of criticism to me directly ? ’ Mr. VALENTINE. You encouraged it. Mr. Levurr. Did that apply to Indians, as well as whites? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Leupp. In those early days was the form of official letters cumbersome, and ifso, how? I am speaking now of the literary form. Mr. VALENTINE. It was very cumbersome, because it was the ’ custom in those days to brief or sometimes even quote a large part of the letter being answered, in each letter that went out in answer. Mr. Leupp. And did it ever go further back than that, and re- hearse the entire correspondence ? ; Mr. VaLentine. Yes—long chronological accounts of the things that had taken place before. ; Mr. Leupr. It might go back a dozen years, perhaps, if a matter had lasted that long? . Mr. VALENTINE. Many times; yes, sir. ; Mr. Leupp. Was anything done by me to correct this cumbersome- ness ¢ Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes; you tried to cut it out, and, as I remember, simply have each letter show its relation to the previous stage, rather than re-rehearse. R414 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Leupp. So that by grouping letters together according to that correspondence you would have the whole story ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. Were more letters written then than were necessary } Mr. VaLentine. I think so; yes, sir. ; Mr. Leupp. Was anything done toward correcting that? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes; we began making corrections. We adopted a good many short cuts and savings, as well as—I do not recall any specific instances just at the present moment, but I might be able to think up some. ; . The CuarrMAN. Perhaps Mr. Leupp can illustrate what he has in mind. Mr. Leurr. Yes. I can assist the witness’s memory, perhaps, in this way: Do you remember how many letters it took if a superin- tendent wanted to buy a 35-cent broom ? ; Mr. VALENTINE. Oh, yes; very distinctly. He wrote in to the office, I believe, and the office wrote to the Secretary, and then the Secretary wrote back to the office, and the oftice wrote back to the superintendent. We cut that out by having the superintendent send his request in on a form which could be approved all along the line, and a carbon copy retained of the request, which would go back to him as the original authority. Mr. Leurr. That was a typical sample of this sort of work we did, 1 understand. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Levrr. Did you assist me largely in making these changes for a reduction in the work ? Mr. VaLentine. I remember I was of some assistance. Mr. Leupp. Did I restrict you or give you a free hand in making the reforms you found advisable ? . Mr. VALENTINE. You gave me a free hand and backed me up. Mr. Levrr. Did I back you up strongly or indifferently ? Mr. VALENTINE. Strongly. Mr. Leupp. Was I scrupulous or the reverse, about consulting the Secretary or the President, or both, about every important step I took, which could affect their reputation or that of the Indian Office? Mr. VALENTINE. You were very scrupulous. You spent a great deal of time both at the department and at the White House on those matters. Mr. Leupp. Now, please ransack your memory .and tell the com- mittee, without any regard for me, whether you ever knew me to break faith with anybody or consciously tell an untruth. Mr. VaLentine. I never did, sir. Mr. Leupp. Did I ever dodge responsibility for anything done by another acting in my stead ? Mr. Vatentine. I think, on the contrary, you were a little bit ee of it. Mr. Leupp. Did I shirk accountability in any way ? Mr. VaLenTINE. Not to my knowledge, sir. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember the storm raised by President Roosevelt's order to my predecessor, Commissioner Jones, to apply pee inden tribal funds to aid sectarian schools on the reserva- ions ? Mr. VaLENTINE. Very distinctly, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2415 i Leupp. When I inherited this quarrel, what course did I take ¢ Mr. VALENTINE. You proposed a general plan of revision for the use of tribal funds, to the President. The CuainMAN. Are you going to develop the plan and give a synopsis of it? Mr. Levrr. I will be very glad to, if the committee wishes. The CHatrMAN. Was it your purpose to do so? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I simply had the purpose of getting at the way criticisms were handled in the office at that time. : The CuatirMAN. Speaking briefly, what was the plan? Mr. VALENTINE. It had been the custom, Mr. Chairman, to let the Indians in council, as a general proposition, assent to the use of tribal funds for the support of Indian pupils im sectarian schools. Mr. Leupp felt, as I recall it, that that led almost of necessity to a rather loose system of accounting for moneys, and advocated this plan: That after setting aside all the proper charges for other purposes under the laws or treaties, on the thal: funds, any balance that then remained should be prorated—theoretically, not actually; but theoretically— to the credit of the different Taare, and each Indian, speaking for himself, or possibly for his children—I have forgotten now that would work out—could desire, by signing a petition, that all or part of this prorated share to him should be used for the support of children in sectarian schools. The plan finally adopted was different from that in this, that the whole idea of the prorating was kept, but the pro- rating was made before certain other charges were satisfied against these funds. Now, that policy is in force to-day in the Sioux country and certain other parts of the country. The old custom still exists to some extent in Oklahoma and one or two other places, possibly. The Cuarrman. Mr. Leupp, would you have any objection to sus- pending your examination at that time and allowing Mr. Slayden to ask a few questions ? Mr. Levurr. No. Mr. StaypEN. My attention has been called to the testimony given by Mr. Valentine. This memorandum was given me by my clerk. I do not know the date the testimony was given, but I think it was on the 13th, and this is an extract from the testimony or purports to bean extract from the testimony given by Mr. Valentine. Just what led up to this I have no idea. I have not read the previous testimony, and know nothing about the facts that led up to it. Mr. Valentine says: Well, for instance, I had a case this morning (I am not saying it was good or bad, but it will just illustrate my opinion), which struck me with peculiar force because it hap- ened when the committee had been questioning me upon the subject of political influence: About 9.30 a Member of Congress came into my office and said that a client of his or a constituent of his was interested in certain leases on the Osage Indian Reser- vation and that he had an appointment there. It was_a very rainy morning, you remember, and he had an appointment with two or three Representatives and a couple of Senators to come and talk to me about these leases. Now this, of course, makes congressional influence, keeping in mind all the time I am not kicking against it; I am stating the facts. This man lived in Texas and was interested in certain cattle leases on the Osage Indian Reservation. The man came into my office and I got some points from him and told him that I would look it up, and he came this morning, by appointment with me, and I told him there was nothing in his case. I said he was all wrong and unless some better reasons were presented I would not take it up. Mr. Valentine, who was that Member of Congress ? 2416 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VALENTINE. I think it was you, sir. Mr. StaypEN. Accompanied by any other Member ? Mr. VaLentine. No, sir. Mr. Staypen. Let me say, Mr. Chairman, that I am not a lawyer, have not any clients, and never had any anywhere in that sense of the word at all. You remember the substance of my statement to you, Mr. Val- entine ? Mr. VaLentineE. I think so, yes. Mr. StaypeEn. What was it? Mr. VALENTINE. Simply that this man had some matters he wished to take up with the department. I think your attitude was that of indorsing him for the consideration of the office. Mr. SuaypEen. Did I or did I not ask that a review of the case be had? Mr. Vatentine. I think you did, sir; yes. ; Mr. StayYpEN. Did I state to you that according to the presentation of the case to me that I was under the impression that the decision previously made by the commissioner or his subordinates, whoever did it, was wrong and had done an injustice to this gentleman that I thought would be corrected on review, in substance ? Mr, Vatentine. I think that is the substance of your statement. Mr. StayDEN. You made an engagement with Mr. McLean—lI will explain that Mr. McLean in appearing in this matter appeared as attorney for Mr. Stribbling—you made an engagement with Mr. McLean to come back and you would go over the case with him? Mr. VALENTINE. The next day; yes. Mr. SraypDEN. The next day he called back ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Staypen. And you declined to reopen and reconsider it? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. StaypEN. You said—I am quoting your testimony—you said; “‘He was all wrong, and unless some better reasons were presented I would not take it up?’ That is about what you said? Mr. VaLtentinge. Yes, and made the statement the reason the office had given for the refusal of the approval of the leases was that the leases asked for were not in Mr. Stribbling’s pasture. e Mr. StaypENn. Did you refuse to hear him state the case when he returned to give you the better reasons that you referred to ? Mr. Vatentine. I will put it this way: The only, reason I asked for another day was that I might familiarize myself with the case, and I found that the leases in question had been disapproved by the Indian Office, and also, on the recommendation of the indian Office, had been disapproved by the Department of the Interior. : a nes: They were disapproved by the subordinates in your office ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; disapproved by my assistant and the First Assistant Secretary of the Interior if I ‘recall correctly. It became a departmental matter, and I told Mr. McLean that, as far as anything had been shown me, after talking with my subordinates, I did not feel like reopening the case; that it had become a depart- mental matter and he had better take it up there. Mr. Staypen. You said, according to this, in your testimony that you told him that unless better reasons were presented you would not take it up ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2417 Mr. VaLenTINE. I think probably that is correct. Mr. StaypEn. I think that is correct, because that is what he told me you said, and that you refused to let him state those reasons. . VALENTINE. I should not put it that way. sir. Mr. Staypen. At least, you did not hear him? Mr. Vatentine. I declined to hear anything further. Mr. StaypEeNn. You declined to discuss it further ? Mr. VaLenTINE. I told him it was a departmental matter and that it was a waste of time to discuss it further. Mr. Staypen. You did, as a matter of fact, decline any further to discuss the reasons ? Mr. VaLentine. I should not put it quite as strongly as that Mr. Staypen. That is your own language. Mr. VALENTINE (continuing). Because he did not have any further reasons to warrant any further entrance into the situation at that time. Mr. StaYpDEN. You say here, unless he had better reasons you would not take it up. Mr. Vatentine. He did not show better reasons. Mr. Staypen. Did he offer to show better reasons ? Mr. VALENTINE. He merely repeated statements already made. Mr. Staypen. Did you examine the papers that he brought ? Mr. Vatentine. I looked over those, and I had some people in the office to look over them, too. ‘ Mr. Staypen. There is a question of contradiction of your testi- mony and his statement to me. You say here, ‘It looks like these men wanted to get these leases merely for political speculation purposes.” Mr. Vatentine. I do not think I said “political;” I said ‘“specu- lative’’ purposes. : Mr. StaypDEN. Well, the stenographer’s notes of course will show what you said about that. This purports to be an extract from them. Mr. VaventineE. If I said Hpditigal” I did not mean it. Mr. Staypen. What-did you mean by that? Mr. Vaentine. I did not, to the best of my recollection, say that, sir;-and I would like to see the minutes. Mr. Staypen. Who did you mean by ‘‘these men wanted to get these leases merely for speculation purposes,” omitting the .word ‘political ?”’ Mr. VaLentine. I meant Mr. Stribbling. Mr. SLaypDEN. You did not mean the Members of Congress ? Mr. VaLentine. Not by any means; no, sir. Mr. StaypEeNn. Then Mr. Burch says, “He was reenforced by a couple of Senators and several Congressmen who came with him as a matter of courtesy.” What other Members of Congress came with me? Mr. VaLenTINE. No other Members came with you at that time. Mr. SLaypeN. What other Members did come subsequently ? Mr. VaLentTIneE. I think two or three came in afterwards to speak about this same matter. : Mr. SLaypEN. Who were they, Mr. Valentine ? Mr. VaLentineE. Mr. Stephens of Texas, Senator Owen of Okla- homa, and I think someone else; but I am not perfectly sure of this. Perhaps I had better not give the name unless I feel sure on that. Mr. SLaypEN. Still referring to those Representatives and Senators who came in, Mr. George says, “And in their own interests, to the 2418 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, detriment of anybody that might get in their way, whether it be the Indians or the public at large,” to which Mr. Valentine replied ‘‘Yes, sir.” What did you mean by that, Mr. Valentine ? Mr. VaLentine. Will you kindly read that again. Mr. StaypEN. Referring to these Representatives and Senators who came, Mr. George remarked that they came in their own inter- ests, to the detriment of anybody that might get in their way, whether it be the Indians or the public at large, and to that you answered “‘Yes, sir.’ What did you mean by that ? Mr. VaLentine. I do not think I could answer that unless I had the context. : Mr. Staypen. Well, I just read you what preceded it. Mr. VatentINE. I do not quite see the bearing of that question coming in. Mr. Staypen. Mr. Burch says, ‘‘He was reenforced by a couple of Senators and several Congressmen who came with him as a matter of courtesy,’ and you say, “Yes, sir.” Then Mr. George says, ‘‘ And in their own interests, to the detriment of anybody that might get in their way, whether it be the Indians or the public at large?” To which you answer, ‘‘ Yes, sir.” That is a plain statement that the Members of Congress, both Senators and Representatives, went in their own interests, regardless of any public interest or anything else, to which you said, ‘‘ Yes.” Mr. PATENTING, I certainly did not mean it in the sense which you nfer; and I am sure the committee did not think of it in that sense, because no questions were raised about it at that time. Mr. StaypEn. In what sense did you mean it ? Mr. Vatentine. I suppose I was referring to the general attitude of the people around reservations, like Mr. Stribbling, acting in their own interests. _Mr. Stayprn. This had reference particularly to Representatives and Senators. Mr. VaLentTineE. As a general proposition there might be some truth in it—as a general proposition. Mr. Staypen. Did they come in in their own interests and without regard to the interests of the public or the Indian ? ir, VALENTINE. I would not make that charge in any specific case. Mr. Staypen. Is not that a fair inference from your language ? Mr. Vaventine. I do not think it is fair to me to attach that meaning to it. Mr. Staypen. You did make that ? Mr. VaLentTINE. Well, of course if the record shows that, I am per- fectly willing to rest on what the record says. Mr. StaypEen. Then Mr, George says: If you care to state it, Mr. Valentine, I would like very much to hear a little about that Osage incident that you referred to yesterday—about ‘‘big business” coming into the Indian Office. And here is your reply: _ Why, I know very little about the case, because I had not passed on it myself until it was brought up to me yesterday; but in outline it is this: A gentleman, who, I ‘presume, is in rather large stock interests in Texas, has some pastures in the southern part of the Osage Indian Reservation, and other leases leased pastures in the other parts of the reservation, having in mind Mr. Stribbling ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2419 Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. SLAYDEN (reading) : * * * Now, this man put in, or has applied for leases in three groups; one group oi 10,000 acres, I should estimate; another group of 10,000, and a third group of 10,000. The third group was in relation to his own pastures, down in the South, and it is prob- able that those will be approved. The other two groups of 10,000 acres each, roughly, were not in connection with hisown pastures, neither were they lumped into other parts of the State, but were interenetrated and interfused with pastures of other people; so that on the very face of the thing it was pretty clear, when a man wants a section or two sections in the midst of a township for somebody else, that he is buying that up for trading purposes—in other words, it looked perfectly clear that the thing was for speculative purposes. Now, I do not want to do this gentleman any injustice. Iam simply saying what the proposition was on the face of it; and it was so clear to me, and they having given no evidence to the contrary, that I refused to reopen the matter in any way. They had already been turned down; and I thought that they had been turned down justly. I understand jou to say you had reference in that case to the case that Mr. Stribbling and I came down there with Mr. McLean and asked to present to you. - Mr. VaLenTINE. That is the case I was referring to; yes. Mr. Staypen. Why did you say that it was clear that when a man wants a section or two sections in the midst of a township for somebody else that he is buying that up for trading purposes ? at did you mean “when a man wants it for somebody else ?”’ Mr. VaLenTine. Well, that involves the whole question of the cattle raising on the Osage Reservation which we had been trying to clean up. Mr. Staypen. In this particular case ¢ Mr. Vacentine. In this particular case. My understanding of it is from what people have reported to me on the subject, that it is impracticable as a business proposition for a man to have a few quarter-sections in the midst of somebodyelse’s big pasture, unless he intends to act as a middle man and dispose of that right of his under some terms to the man who has the pasture. Mr. StaypEn. Does it not very frequently happen that different ones have different cattle in the same pasture, under the same fence, where each one has an interest in the acres? Mr. VALENTINE. It has happened, and there are several of them on the Osage Reservation; that is what I have said is the “leasing evil” that we have been trying to cut out. ; Mr. StaypEN. Did you know anything about Mr. Stribbling’s use in connection with those leases ? Mr. VALENTINE. Only in a very, very general way. Mr. StaypEN. You know he has had leases before ? Mr. VaLenTINne. In different parts of the reservation. Mr. Staypen. And actually used the grass which he leased by sending cattle there to graze? Mr. VALENTINE. I do not know. The superintendent would be a better witness on that point than I would be. Mr. StaypEN. At least, you do not know he has leased any lands up there for speculative purposes 4 Mr. VaLENnTINE. I do not know whether he has or not. Mr. StaypEN. What did you mean by saying “It looks perfectly clear that the thing was for speculative purposes ?”’ 2420 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VaLentine. That he was acting as a middle man just as I described a moment ago, by going into a territory where another man was largely interested and getting a small tract—a compara- tively small tract—in that territory for the purpose of selling his right to him. : Mr. StaypEN. How long had these leases to run—from year to year, or longer periods? : Mr. VALENTINE. I think—I am informed, sir, that they were to run from one to three years. Mr. StaypEN. Well, at the ore e of the lease the man who had held the lease during the time that it is expiring, has no right under the law superior to that of another man who comes in to negotiate for the land, has he? Mr. VALENTINE, No, sir. Mr. StaypeN. Have you acted on the theory that he would have? Mr Varentine. That he would have preferential rights ? Mr. Staypen. Preferential rights, yes ? Mr. VaLentine. Not to my knowledge. Mr. StaypeN. What did you mean, Mr. Valentine, by the state- ment that the lands were not in Mr. Stribbling’s pasture, for example? Mr. VALENTINE. When some two or three years ago we sent the. present superintendent to take hold down there, his first job was to tackle what was called the ‘informal system of leasing,’ which created the evils of the cattle business on the Osage Reservation. He called in (if I recall his statement to me correctly) all the various cattle men and asked them for a division of the area over which the informal leases ranged. Mr. SLAYDEN. at kind of leases ? Mr. VALENTINE. Informal—leases made direct with the Indians by the cattle men that did not pass through the local Indian office. Mr. Staypen. Do they not.all have to be approved ? Mr. VaLentine. No, sir; they did not under those conditions— that is what I am trying to state. So he called in all these people {I do not know what the procedure was, but that is the idea) and took a map of the Osage Reservation and found that X had informal leases on allotments in this territory, and Y had informal leases on allotments in this territory, and Z informal leases in this territory, and in that way lined out the various areas where any particular lessee had the bulk of the leases, and the theory, as I understand it, was that during the pendency of those leases this majority owner, so to speak, should have the right of range here and bring the informal lessee through the office to this man here, and this man here, and that pending that status, nobody should be allowed to come in to. what was informally known as “this man’s pasture” and “that man’s pasture,” for the purpose of their actual grazing. Mr. SLAYDEN. And as a matter of fact, however—I am not sure of the date—my impression or my recollection is (you can correct me if I am oe that Mr. Stribbling’s leases at least, and I sup- pose others as well, expired the 1st of March. Mr. VaLentine. I think that is right; yes, sir. Mr. Staypen. Then, Mr. Stribbling had no disposition there to be considered in connection with the new leases ? Mr. Vatentine. The complaint to the superintendent against Mr. Stribbling was that he was the one man who, neither himself nor WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2491 through his agents, would come in and help organize this thing in a businesslike manner; and at some later time one of the agents said that as fast as Stribbling’s leases expired he convinced the whole Osage Reservation of the idea he was buying out some prior claim in the reservation. Mr. Staypen. Well, the unwarranted assertion of an agent, like that, if made, you would not consider seriously in your office as affecting legal rights ? Mr. VALENTINE. It would not affect legal rights or equities. The superintendent is in town, and I would be very glad to have him testify on this point. Mr. StaypDen. Is it not a fact that pastures that had been leased heretofore by Mr. Stribbling were obtained by other cattlemen or speculators, or whatever they may be up there—I do not know— who came in and possibly bought some—I do not know—or did something, and they were given pastures Mr. Stribbling had been accustomed to grazing ? Mr. VaLenTIneE. I would not answer about that. I simply know that in the conference we had with the Secretary, after you took the matier up with him, Mr. Pitzer informed him of the general situation there, and I do not recall-in that conversation any statement that Mr. Stribbling leased any pastures he had formerly held, and I think the statement was also made that those particular pastures—— Mr. Staypen. Is Mr. Pitzer in here now? Mr. VALENTINE. I am told he is in court, sir. Mr. StayDEN. He is in court ? : Mr. VaLenTINE. I think it is on a case of these Osage Indians having been given some liquor in one of these hotels. Mr, SLayDEN. The statements made to me, the statements of details, were most convincing, that Mr. Stribbling had pastures in that section of the country that were subsequently secured by other eople. They had a perfect right to obtain them; there was not any oubt about that, except my theory is that Mr. Stribbling would have as much right to buy or negotiate for pastures that he had not had as any of those peep would have a right to buy or negotiate for pastures he had had. Mr. VaLenTINE. That is right. Mr. StaypEN. But your oftice undertook to apply and did apply a different rule, and it. disapproved Mr. Stribbling’s pastures—I mean, disapproved Mr. Stribbling’s leases with the Indians, because they were not in his pasture; is not that true? Mr. VaLentTINE. That, I do not think is a correct statement. Mr. StayDEN. Wherein is it wrong? Mr. VaLenTINE. Because the statement that the office refused to approve those leases, because they were not in Mr. Stribbling’s pas- tures, was not the way the office letter read. 1 prefer to get ‘the letter, and will do so, in that regard. I do not remember now how it is worded. ‘ Mr. StaypEN. Was not the indorsement on the leases ‘‘disapproved because not in Mr. Stribbling’s pasture” ? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir; I do not think so. The indorsement on the back simply reads ‘‘Disapproved,” and the letter, which recom- mends the disapproval and signed by our office and then by the secre- tary, contains the reasons. 2422 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. StaypEN. You may be right about that. : ? The Cuairman. Would you like to have the letter of disapproval, Mr. Slayden ? Mr. StaYvEN. Yes, sir. It is not a very important point, however, The Cuarrman. I think it due Mr. Valentine, really, that the letter should appear and be put in the testimony. Mr. SLAYDEN. What action was taken on the leases finally, Mr. Val- entine, in your office ? Mr. VALENTINE. The two groups of, roughly, 10,000 acres each (I may be off as to the exact figures; but I am under the recollection that there were three groups of 10,000 acres each)—the two groups of 10,000 acres each, mostly in the northern part of the reservation, were disapproved both in my office and the Secretary of the Interior’s office. The other group, lying south, where Mr. Stribbling had the bulk of the leases, an sahetd his large pastures were, was recom- mended for approval. Mr. StaypEeN. Did you recommend the disapproval of leases to the Secretary that were subsequently approved ? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. Mr. Staypen. Did he approve any that you disapproved ? Mr. VaLentTIneE. No, sir; not that I krow of. Mr.. StaypEn. Not that you know of? Mr Vatentine. I think he disapproved those two bunches; and the other one, I think, is not yet before him, but it is recommended for approval. Mr..StayDEN. You would not know about that yet ? Mr. VaLentTIne. No; not positively. Mr. Staypen. Now, Mr. Valentine, what particularly concerned ine in this matter was this statement of yours here, that Members of Congress, myself included, because you say that I was the man you had m mind——- Mr. VaLentinE. I call your attention to the fact that I mentioned no names. Mr. Siaypen. I know you did not, but you admitted just now that I was the man you meant. Mr. VALENTINE. You asked the question. Mr. StaypEen. Yes; I asked the question, because I want the truth. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. SLaypEN (continuing). Had gone in there to induce you to do something, regardless of the interests of the Indians or the public. Mr. VaLentine. That is not the inference I had in mind, and it is not the correct one. Mr. StaYpEN. That is a question of the stenographer’s notes. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Staypen. Is it your opinion that Mr. Stephens or I, either one, said or did anything that could be construed into the slightest pos- sible effort on our part to induce you to do what was wrong in this matter @ Mr. VaLenTineE. No, sir; It is not now and never has been. _ Mr. Staypen. Then if that is your testimony, any such inference is not correct ? Mr. VaLentine. Any such inference is not correct. Mr. Staypen. Any such language—not ‘‘inference’’ ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2423 Mr. VaLenTINE. I do not remember any such language. Mr. StaypeNn. You did not name Mr Stephens and did not name me, but ru said just now it was the matter about which Mr. Stephens and I called to see you. Mr. VatenTinE. I think I made it perfectly clear I was not passing on the merits of the matters. Mr. Staypen. No, you were passing on the demerits of Members of Congress trying to induce you to do something wrong. Me. VaLENTINE. I think that an unjust inference. Mr. Staypen. As to the merits of the case itself, and of the leases, so far as the merits were concerned, did we ask you to do anything but to see that justice was done Mr. Stribbling ? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Siaypen. Did we ask the Secretary to do anything but review ‘the case and see that justice was done ? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir; but you remember, in the Secretary’s office, you told him it had been reported to you that I stated that Members of Congress from Texas had tried to get a crooked deal through the Indian Offie ? Mr. Staypen. Not quite that. Mr. VaLentine. I think the substance is correct. Mr. StaypEN. ‘‘Had endeavored to induce you to consent to leases that were crooked ” was language I used. Mr. VaLenTINE. That may be. Mr. SLaypEN. That was the information brought to me. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Staypen. We did nothing of the kind, did we? Mr. VaLentTine. You did nothing of the kind. Mr, Staypen. Did Mr.. Stephens or I? Mr. VaLentine. No, nothing. Mr. Staypen. There was a conversation occurred between you and Mr. Stephens at which you remember I was not present: Did either Mr. Stephens or I make any suggestion that smacked of impropriety in any way ? Mr. VaLENTINE. You did not; no, sir. ‘Mr. Staypen. And if there is any language in your testimony which suggests that we did or conveys that impression to the public, or whoever might read it, it is unjustified by the facts ? Mr. VaLentIne. It is unjustified by the facts and that was not in my mind. The Cuarrman. Now, Mr. Valentine, if there is anything further in connection with any of these matters you wish to state, you might take time to do it now—if there are any points raised by Mr. Slayden which you wish to explain further. ; Mr. VaLENTINE. Only this, Mr. Chairman, as the notes will show, on the general subject of special interests and big business, and so forth, I had been questioned on all kinds of political influence, and I do not wish to add anything to the general statement on political influence— : Mr. SLaypEn. May I interrupt you there, Mr. Valentine, to ask question ? Mr. VaLENTINE. Yes. Mr. StaypENn. Just what was meant by ‘‘political influence?” 2424 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VALENTINE. The record will show, Mr. Slayden, I testified to some length in response to questions of the committee as to ‘‘polit- ical influence.” What I was going to say was that I was not saying whether the ‘‘political influence” was legitimate or illegitimate—I was using it without any reference one way or the other, but simply -- stating facts. ‘‘Politics’” and ‘‘political influence,” both together, and ‘‘influence” without the term ‘‘political” are terms that. have been very much abused; and probably there are specific cases both of good use and abuse, but I was not attempting to apply that general statement to any particular case. Mr. SLaypEN. What is your view of what is the duty of a Member of Congress, when a constituent, who has the reputation of being an honest man and an honorable citizen, asks you to present a case to’a department of the Government, wherein he alleges he has been unfairly treated ? Mr. Vatentine. I am delighted that you ask me that question. Obviously, it is the duty of a Member of Congress to introduce that man to the office where his business lies; but I would hate like every- thing to think that in some of the cases that come to my attention the Members of Congress realize some of the Africans in the wood pile that come up. The CuarrMAN. The examination of Mr. Valentine on the occasion when the testimony from which you have read was adduced was very voluminous along that line, and my recollection is fairly distinct that he covered your question in his testimony on that occasion. Mr. Staypen. As to the line of propriety for a Member of Congress to pursue ? : The CuHarrMAN. Not quite that; but I think the committee would not care a great deal about that. Mr. Staypen. I wanted to know if Mr. Valentine thought I had been guilty of impropriety. The Cuarrman. There is nothing of that sort in the testimony as I understand him, as one member of the committee. Mr. Groree. I did not understand him so either. The CHarrMAN. He at some length gave his experience as Com- missioner of Indian Affairs on such occasions, and the line of inquiry was to what extent the Commissioner of Indian Affairs was entirely free to pursue age dictated by his own judgment or to what extent he was warped in the application of those policies by influence from various sources, and it was a long story; and we would not want him to review it now and go over it again because it is too long. That was the way this matter came up. Mr. Grorce. It came out in the testimony of Mr. Powell, attorney for some of the lumber interests in Minnesota, who had testified at some length, and preceding him Mr. Nichols of the Nichols-Chisholm Co. It had involved these questions, and Mr. Valentine was simply following along on the line of that testimony, and the questions you - read were only a few at the end. : The Cuarrman. It grew out of the White Earth Lumber situation originally. Mr. Leupp. Mr. Valentine, do you recall an article I wrote for, the Outlook, in response to a request from one of the editors, showing what had been done in obedience to the President’s order in regard to the use of Indian funds in mission schools? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2425 Mr. VALENTINE. Well, I remember it—I think I remember your writing something for the Outlook, but I do not know whether it was rinted or not. I apprehend the inference that people seem to draw om my testimony, and I am not especially saying it was not worth rinting. : Mr. Leupp. The only force it had, Mr. Chairman, was simply show- ing that, so far as trying to get away from responsibility, in this article I went even further than I was called upon to do. _ Did Lever do anything to your ieiorledes to influence outside criti- cism or suppress 1t. Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Leupp. Did I do anything in the way of promoting publicity in the bureau ? Mr. VaLentTINeE. Yes,sir. Youwrote articles and delivered speeches and talked, I guess, on Indian affairs to every person that came across your track. Mr. Levrr. Did you ever attend any of the places where I spoke— the meetings ¢ Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupr. Do you remember the way that I offered myself for questions afterwards ¢ Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Your usual plan was to get the subject before the audience and then invite questions on any and all subjects. Mr. Leupp. Did I ever dodge any questions? Mr. VaLenTINE. I never saw you the times I was there? Mr. Leupp. Even when it reached into things I had been pretty badly hammered for? Mr. VaLeENTINE. I would say you were by no means a dodger. Mr. Leupp. Did I ever prevent, or try to prevent, anyone, in or out of the service, from appealing to the Secretary or the President, from my decisions, to your knowledge ? . VALENTINE. No, sir, not to my knowledge. . at Leupp. When I found that I had made a mistake, what did o? Mr. VaLENTINE. Corrected it, to the best of your ability. Mr. Leupp. Did I acknowledge it promptly, or not ? Mr. VaLenTINneE. Of course I know on general principles that you acknowledged it promptly, knowing what you do; but I do not know that I can answer intelligently without recalling specific instances. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember my practice of sending a cigar to any man in the office who at any time called my attention to any mistake Thad made? Mr. VALENTINE. J do not recall that, no sir. Mr. Leupp. That was the standing prize. In my early days in the Indian Office, were most things done according to an established routine, or was each matter fought out on its own merits ? Mr. VaLentine. I think the custom of handling matters according to routine held sway to a great extent. ; The Cuarrman. Mr. Leupp, if you were a lawyer and in court, you would have a peck of trouble on your hands. Mr. Leupp. I dare say so. The CuarrMan. The lawyer in me rises once in a while and resents it. The questions are all long and the answers all short, which is a very good indication that they are extremely leading. The state- 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——58 2426 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ment is made in the question and the witness has only to assent or dissent. Mr. Lever. Have I not been in the practice of stating two alterna- tive courses ? ; The CuarrMan. That does not relieve the question of its leading character; but I know it is not intentional. It is the habit nearly everyone who has not fought the question out in court falls into; and to one accustomed to trying law suits it is pretty hard to keep still under it. Mr. Leupp. I would be very glad, Mr. Chairman, if at any time you would call my attention to it. The CHarrman. You have your questions noted down, as I see; but it is only necessary, Mr. Leupp (as I take it you can readily see), that a witness who was friendly to you and who had talked this matter over with you—all he would have to do would be to nod his head to your questions, or shake it. Mr. Leupp. I would like to say on that, Mr. Chairman, that I think you are in error about most of these questions. Were the conditions as to routine more complex, or less, in my time than yours? Mr. VatentineE. I think on the whole they were more complex. Mr. Leupp. Do you recall any discovery I made regarding the action of the Finance and the Accounts Divisions, as typical of the errors of our system then? Mr. VaLentinE. Well, the Accounts Division—I was thinking of this fact, that the Education Division and the Accounts Division divided the employees up between them. I do not know whether that was the question you wanted or not. Mr. Leupp. No, it was with regard to the functions of the two. Mr. VaLentine. You see, in those days, there was no Finance Division—oh, yes, I beg your pardon; there was a Finance Division, and an Accounts Division in those days; yes; and the Accounts Division simply had charge of auditing disbursing officers’ accounts and also had what was called the agency employees, and the Finance Division had charge of the purchase of supplies and the appropria- tion bills, and their functions were rather badly involved—that is, they were not a logical dichotomy. Mr. Leurr. Would it be in order for me to make a statement of this discovery that I speak of, for the information of the committee, . as it is illustrative of what I am trying to bring out? The Cuarrman. I think so, very briefly. Mr. Leupp. I discovered at one of the agencies that I visited, in looking over the correspondence, two letters. One of them was an authorization to the agent to make a certain expenditure, the other one was a notice to the agent, dated a month or two later, when his accounts had been turned in, that this expenditure was disallowed. The agent was totally nonplussed by this. They were both signed by the same hand. He knew nothing about the internal machinery of the office. I quickly pointed out to him, up in an upper corner of the sheet, that the first one came from the Finance Division, which had the right to recommend to the commissioner that certain allowances should be made, and the other one was from the Accounts Division; and, although these two divisions were separated only by a corridor, there was so little interplay between them that the Accounts Division WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2427 did not know anything about what the Finance Division was doing; and such instances, as the committee will discover here, largely show conditions with which I was battling at the time this occurred. Would you say, Mr. Valentine, that my forte was administrative, detective, or pioneer work ? Mr. VaLENTINE. I should say it was pioneer work. In order to convince you and the committee that I shan’t spare your feelings or anything else, I should say on the whole that I should consider you to be a poor administrator along the general lines of adminis- tration. Mr. Leupp. I should be very glad to have that statement made. The CuarrMAN. What is the meaning of ‘‘detective” in that sense? That is the word you used, is it not? Mr. Leupp. Yes. I meant the sort of work that a man would do in digging up things that might strike another person perhaps as suspicious, or something of that sort. It is what I judge Mr. George had in mind the other day in speaking of newspaper work. The CoarrMAN. It was in my mind to suggest ‘‘literary” to the classification you made and ask the witness’s judgment on that. Mr. VaLentine. If Mr. Leupp had to earn his living that way he might have made a pretty good living that way, Mr. Chairman. I should not say it was his forte, but he has a very analytical mind. Mr. Leupp. While engaged in what you call my “pioneer” work, what became of the ordinary business of the office ? Mr. VALENTINE. It went on in its customary routine, very largely as it had before. I would like in this connection to call your atten- tion, Mr. Leupp, and the committee’s attention to my rather notable admission, perhaps, on the administrative side when I was called tc take hold of the office: As to the lines of policy which the bureau will follow, I prefer to let the coming year speak for itself; but here I would record the debt which I feel I owe to Com- missioner Leupp in his having turned over to me a service to which he has contrib- uted undying qualities through his love of truth, his fearlessness in working for the . end as he saw it, his unbounded energy in handling details, and his intense personal loyalty both to the office staff and to the field force. ; Now, the training I have had in administration shows me he is a man who has unbounded energy in handling details, but he was not in the modern sense of the term a man acquainted with modern administration. ; The Cuarrman. You think he would make a better colonel than a commander in chief ? Mr. Vatentine. I think so. In other words, he shot into the thing in this place and that place, to an extent, personal efficiency. Mr. Grorce. I do not know whether the Chair intended to shoot some politics in the words or not. ; Mr. VaLentTIne. You will have to look out for the inference, Mr. George. Me Leupp. A moment ago, Mr. Chairman, you spoke of Mr. Valen- tine’s relations with me and our talking things over, and so forth. Did you refer to talking over this examination ? The Cuarrman. Oh, no; my remarks were addressed to the nature of your questions, and to the vice of leading questions in an exami- nation: Mr. Leupp. I tried to avoid that as well as I could. 9428 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The CuairMaNn (continuing)—because the ee always sug- gests the answer desired, and in such a case the answer Is eprived of much weight which it would otherwise have. For instance, when you say, ‘In my work, did you notice whether I did thus and so, or thus and so,” che answer to that would not be near as valuable as evidence as if you had said ‘‘ What did you observe as to my adminis- tration along ‘certain lines.” Then, you get the witness’s thought, but from the leading questions such as you ask, you get the witness’s indorsement of your thought. ; ; : Mr. Leupr. I thought I was saving the committee’s time and making it perfectly clear. ; ; The Cuarrman. I think it is entirely unconscious. Mr. Leupp. I think it is the way anyone would do, as I said before. The CuarrMan. Ordinarily, and then another way is hammered in him in practicing in court. Mr. Leupp. Mr. Valentine, if a better plan was presented to me than the one which I had adopted, did I have any hesitancy in accepting it} Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; but I think you fought valiantly for your own ideas. I remember having one or two hard times getting you to adopt a plan which I thought was better than yours. Mr. Leupp. en good ideas or plans were devised by any of the subordinates, who got the credit for it? Mr. VALENTINE. The person devising the plan. Mr. Levee. Publicly and privately ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. I was just going to comment on this as being essential to the freedom of the corps in the office, that a person who invents things should get credit for it; and I remember you did a great deal for that. Mr. Lever. Was legislation projected by Congress always submitted to the Indian Office for report ? Mr. Vacentine. I think it was as a rule, but I think there were exceptions. Mr. Leupp. When a piece of proposed legislation was evolved in committee and not submitted, what means did I take for expressing my opinion of it ? Mr. Vauentine. I think there were some cases where you wrote to some individual members of the committee, and other cases where ou wrote to the Secretary on the subject; and I know you may also ave spoken about it in a speech, or an article. Mr. Leupr. Do you remember any course I took with the con- ference committees in such cases ? _ Mr. VALentIne. Yes. When an Indian appropriation bill got into conference you had a statement made—you made a statement (in most cases they were your own statements) of every point in the bill which you did not agree with, and had a copy of that statement on each point put in the hands of each conferee. Mr. Leurr. Who first brought the ravages of trachoma to the attention of Congress ? Mr. VALENTINE. You did, sir. Mr. Leurr. Was any appropriation procured ? Mr. Vatentine. You went up to the chairman of the House Committee on Indian Affairs and took with you some one from the field, I believe, who had first-hand acquaintance with the conditions, and an emergency appropriation was put not in the Indian appropria- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2429 tion bill, but I think in one of the deficiency bills, of $12,000, which was the appropriation upon which we have been building since in our fight through the country. I mentioned that in my testimony the other day. Mr. Leupp. If it had gone through the usual routine, what would have happened ? Mr. VALENTINE. We might not have it yet, sir. Mr. Leupp. Who selected and appointed the medical supervisor for the service, laid out in general his scheme of duties, and set the thing in motion? Mr. VALENTINE. You did, sir. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember where I did that and when? Mr. VaLentine. Well, I am rather under the idea that you did it after you had been out to Phoenix, toward the close of your adminis- tration, and that must have been in the spring or fall of 1908; or it may have been early in 1909, I do not recall exactly which. But I remember Dr. Josep ve was appointed by you to that position to organize the whole work. ; Mr. Levupr. Do you remember my establishment of any sanitorium schools in different parts of the reservations ? Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes. One at Colville, one at Fort Lapwai, and Phoenix was substantially turned into a sanitorium hospital; and one other whose name I do not recall, but which I think you started. Mr. Leupp. Did I ever, in connection with the White Earth timber matters, or any other, even when I was most irritated by what seemed to me his unreasonable position, indicate any doubt of Senator Clapp’s good faith? Mr. VaLENTINE. IJ never heard you, sir. Mr. Leupr. What was his relation to progressive legislation that I endeavored to procure ? Mr. VaLentine. Very helpful. Mr. Leupp. Now, what has been your own experience with him in this regard ? Mr. VaLenTINE. He has been very helpful to me. Mr. Leupp. Have you ever doubted his good faith? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Despite all the existing conditions I should want proof, absolute, before I should doubt that. I have told him very frankly that I thought he was responsible for an awful bad piece of legislation, but so far as I have come in contact with his atti- tude toward Indian affairs, it has been progressive and helpful and absolutely honest. ; ; Mr. Leupp. I wanted to ee that in simply in justice to Senator Clapp, as he has been severely criticized by myself and others as to his attitude on certain questions. Thereupon, at 12.15 o’clock p. m., a recess was taken until 1.45 p.m. AFTER RECESS. The subcommittee met at 2 o’clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The Cuarrman. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. pee Mr. Leupp. Yes. . Valentine, when routine methods came my way requiring a knowledge of laws, treaties, precedents, and other formal matters, what did I do? 2430 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. VaLenTINE. You referred them to the section or division of the office that had the experts on those particular matters. Mr. Lever. You said, I believe, that it was sometimes hard to dislodge me when I got my mind made up. What political or phil- anthropic or other influences were most potent with me at such times 4 Mr. Name I should not say any of them. It was all grist to the mill wherever there was information. Mr. Leupp. What was my attitude toward my critics or foes who attacked me? Mr. VALENTINE. One of show-down. Mr. Leupp. Would you call me temperamentally of a suspicious disposition ? Mr. VaLentIneE. No, sir. ‘Mr. Leupp. How far did my faith in my subordinates carry me? Mr. VALENTINE. Very far. I do not know as that is intelligible. I mean I think you depended absolutely on them and believed in their trustworthiness unless you had absolute proof to the contrary. I think sometimes you probably carried it to an unsafe degree. Mr. Leupp. What did I do when their reputations were assailed ? Mr. VALENTINE. You stood by them. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember a Mr. Shelton, who was mentioned in Mr. Morehead’s testimony the other day ? Mr. VALENTINE. ITremember Mr. Shelton. I did not hear Mr. Morehead’s testimony. ‘Mr. Leupp. Was he at any time the subject of attack? Mr. VALENTINE. vey frequently subject to attack, I think. Mr. Leupp. Is he still in the service ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir: Mr. Leupp. What is your judgment of him as a man? Mr. VacentineE. I think he is one of the best superintendents in the service, from what I can gather by reports and visits of my own to his reservation. ‘ Mr. Lever. What was my phitosephy of confidence in my subordi- nates? How would you describe it? Mr. Vatentine. I should describe it in this way: That human beings are all fallible, and if you appeal to the best that is in people you get that best out of them, and within certain limits very many men are what you believe them to be. So it is a vital policy in con- nection with not only esprit de corps, but in getting results, to believe in people until you get proof to the contrary. I should say that that was your general attitude. _Mr. Leupp. And that I should rather be deceived from time to time than to suspect anybody ? Mr. VaLentine. Than to Tess an attitude of suspicion. I think anybody would rather go through the world with a few bad jolts than to be always suspecting people. Mr. Leupp. at degree or kind of personal loyalty did I demand of persons whom J prompted or supported ? r. VALENTINE. I should say no degree or kind of personal loyalty. Mr. Lever. When they thanked me for what I tal done for them, what was my answer—in those cases that you remember ? i Mr. Vatentine. I have heard you many, many times say: “I do not want personal thanks; it is a question of the service,” or some- thing to that effect. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9431 Mr. Leupp. Who were my favorites among my subordinates in the office or the field ? Mr. VALENTINE. I do not know that you had any, sir. I think ou have been criticized, as I have been, for rather decrying personal oyalty. I know that some of my force think that I lose strength by rather putting that aside and not asking for it, and rather wishing not to have it, but to rather serve the office instead of me. I think anything that seeks to build up parties within a bureau is very wrong. Persona loyalty always does that. Mr. Leupp. Did I push men ahead who did well, or did I give every man his chance and let him make his own way? Mr. VaLenTine. You gave every man his own chance, I should say, and let him make his own way. . Leupp. Do you recall any cases in which political influence affected the standing of a member of the force? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. Mr. Leupp. Do you know a person whose name I have heard men- neers here, but which had passed from me before, called Darwin all? Mr. VALENTINE. Do I know him ? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. VaLenTINE. No, sir. ° Mr. Leupp. You are acquainted with his name? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. Was his case brought to your notice; and if so, by whom and when? Mr. Vatentine. I think it was Mr. Morehead who first called Mr. Hall to my attention. Mr. Leupp. Had you any idea before that about his work or any- thing of the sort? Mr. VaLentiIneE. I do not really know. The record would show how he first came wp, and Mr. Leupp. Do you recall his being mentioned in any way while I was in office? Mr. VaLentine. Not that I recall, sir. Mr. Leupp. What was my attitude toward the Indians, generally ? I would put this more specifically but I do not wish to offend the the committee. Mr. VaLentIne. I should say that your attitude toward Indians generally was one of personal humansympathy. That is, that funda- mentally you felt that the Indian problem consisted of individual In- dians. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember the renegade Utes, as we called them, that marched across the country from Utah to South Dakota? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Leupp. How was my treatment of them, as regards this sym- athy ? A VALENTINE. I remember that you stood out very firmly against the governor of one of the States—I have forgotten now which State— who wanted the troops called out, and wished the Indians treated as marauders. On reports that they were making a peaceful exodus, your attitude was one of dealing with them as human beings. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember how they were finally induced to settle down ? 2432 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vacentine. I think you sent Mr. Dagenett up to see them, or some one, to get them to go to work, and I believe some work was obtained for them at one time near Rapid City. a sty 2 Mr. Leupp. As regards the greater or less liberty of the individual Indian, what was the tendency of my policy and my practice? Mr. Vatentine. I think it was much more radical than mine.is, feeling that not only had they got to have the utmost liberty that we were sure they could bear, but that they had got to come up oo the real world the way the rest of us do before they would really get their full lesson in life. I may make that a little clearer by saying that in a statement that J issued to the men in the field shortly after I became commissioner I made the point that every Indian should be given a burden just as great as he could possibly bear, but not a bit more so. And I think probably, from what I know of your policy, that your comment would be that in many cases you would never make a man of a man in that way, because certain cases in certain temperaments have got to be cut loose before they recognize the world as it is. Mr. Leupp. What was my attitude toward the allotment ques- tion ? Mr. VeELenTINE. Generally speaking, I should say, pushing it— getting the Indians individualized on their lands as fast as possible. Mr. Leupp. Do you recall any one allotment plan that I marked as a model plan for allotment ? . ' Mr. Vetentine. I think that was the Spokane Reservation, if I recall correctly, made by Clair Hunt. Mr. Leupp. Do you recall what was the peculiar feature of that? Mr. VaLentine. This was the principle, I believe: The Indians were surprised because they had the lands they had been farming. For instance, I remember one case where an Indian had land shaped like a potato on the hillside in wheat, and the allotment was run around so that he got the most of the potato possible. Mr. Leupp. Was that plan criticised by conservative judges ? Mr. VaLentineE. I believe it was, and it was also strenously ob- jected to by some of the routinists in the Government service. Mr. Leupp. On what ground ? Mr. VaLenTINE. That it made more work for the surveyors, the platters, and clerks. Mr. Leupp. Was this a novelty at that time? Mr. VatentineE. I think so, sir. Mr. Leurr. Do you remember what the map looked like that charted this ? Mr. Vatentine. I remember that it was a very spotted affair; very much cut up Mr. Leupp. at was my attitude toward the idea of making ‘every Indian a farmer ? Mr. Vaventine. It was generally that it was absurd to expect every Indian to become a farmer as it would be to expect that any pean of people that might be gathered together ipht all become armers. Mr. Leurr. What effort did I make to relieve the monotony of that idea? _ Mr. Varentine. You gave Dagenett his chance to establish his industrial business, and also encouraged diversity of pursuits of trades in the schools WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2433 Mr. Leupr. Was that industrial scheme a success ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. Is it still continued ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. Is it increasing or decreasing ? Mr. VaLenTinE. It is increasing in certain quarters. It is decreas- ing as the needs of it in that particular section are decreasing, but it is extending in other places. Mr. Leupp. Do you remember the results of his taking a bunch of some 40 Navajo schoolboys—well-grown schoolboys—and planting them out in agriculture anywhere ? Mr. VALENTINE. I remember one case. There were several cases of that kind. One case, I believe, was in the beet fields of Colorado, or I think it was the sugar-beet fields of Colorado, where we achieved some rather notable successes in that line. Mr. Lever. Do you remember what the boys did with their money ? ‘Mr. VaLentine. I think they saved it, and took most of it home. Mr. Leupp. Was any investment made of it, within your recol- lection ? Mr. VaLentIneE. If I recall correctly, they bought some sheep and goats with it. Mr. Leupp. Was that of their own motion, or was it suggested to them as a good idea? : Mr. VaLenTINE. I do not recall about that, sir. Mr. Leupr. Do you remember my being absent from Washington for long periods at a time? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. Where was I when I was away that way ? Mr. VaLentTINE. In the Indian field. Mr. Leupp. Who did the signing of letters and orders and other official documents when I was away? Mr. VaLentINE. The assistant commissioner. Mr. Leupp. What was done with the mail that came addressed to me personally in my absence ? Mr. VaLEnTINE. I think the bulk of it usually followed you on your travels. Mr. Leupp. What happened when I returned ? Mr. VALENTINE. You found a great deal of stuff that had been held for your decision. : Mr. Leupp. I was referring more to this: Was any temporary change in the personnel made when I came back, or in the command of the office ? : Mr. VaLentrne. I think, as a rule, the general running of the office was left about the same way as it was when you were away. Whether you were in the field or in the office, you were dealing with matters that you were personally trying to get installed in the service. _ Mr. Leupp. en did the assistant commissioner take his vacation ? Mr. VALENTINE. You usually left in April or May and got back in August, and shortly after you returned I think he usually took his vacation—from the middle of August to the middle of Septem- ber—and of course then you had to do all the work. ; Mr. Leupp. What effect did the presure of work to which you alluded this morning have on me? Mr. VALENTINE. It broke vour health down. 2434 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Leupp. When did you first notice any signs of that ? Mr. VatenTINE. I think it was about the spring of 1907, the first really serious signs. ; Mr. Leupp. Did you mention it to me at that time? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Leupp. What did I answer, or how didI take it? _ Mr. VALENTINE. You answered that you had to do it, and I remember several times going to the verge of what I considered personal impertinence in trying to tell you that you would break down if you kept up the pace, but you brushed it aside as a job you had to do, and you went ahead. Mr. Leupp. After I became aware myself that I was breaking down, why did I stay on? Do you remember that? Mr. VALENTINE. The thing that was puzzling me was whether you really became fully aware as to how badly off you_were. I mean whether you would admit it even to yourself. But I think the last year, in the summer of 1908, from that time on, you were trying to admit it to yourself, and I believe when Mr. Taft became President you offered him your resignation, and stayed on at his request, if I recall correctly. Mr. Leupp. Did I in the mean time turn over matters requiring careful handling to anybody else? Mr. VALENTINE. You did to me, sir. JI was very largely left in charge within about six weeks after I became assistant commis- sioner; that is, in charge of the office end of the work. Mr. Leupp. Did you continue your work of reorganization then? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupr. What support did you get from me in that? Mr. VaLentTine. Every support that I asked. Mr. Levrr. Even when I did not agree with you in certain par- ticulars ? Mr. VALENTINE. I think there were some cases where you did not wholly agree with me, but unless it was a question that involved policy or something that would be an integral part of your administra- tion I think I recall one or two places where you told me to go ahead and try it out. I know we had some quite strong arguments on 4 number of points. Mr. Leupp. In the early days of 1909 when I was preparing to get out, did I indicate any Drsierence for any particular person as my successor, and if so, who ! Mr. Vatentine. I always felt and knew that you hoped I would succeed you. Mr. Leupr. When others suggested to you your obtaining some political influence for your promotion, what position did I take? Mr. VALENTINE. You advised me against it. Mr. Leupp. Did you follow my advice ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Leupp. Do you know why I gave it to you? Mr. VaLenTINE. I think you felt that if I sought any political in- fluence of any kind I would be committed to some party or group. Mr. Leupp. Can you tell me what political party I belong to? Mr. VaLenTine. No, sir. Mr. Grores. Then or now? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2435 Mr. Leupp. Any time, sir. The President of the United States of that day, the man who appointed me to office, could not tell you what vote I ever cast. Mr. VALENTINE. I should like to put in there also—it may be a little relevant to that point—this is a little personal to me, not to Mr. Leupp—that I have thanked my stars many times since that I took Mr. Leupp’s advice. I was in no sense of the word a candidate for the position I now hold. If I were I would be kicking myself around the lot about once a week. Mr. Leupp. After handing in my resignation, and the President asking me to remain, what did I do—that is, where did I go? Mr. VaLentine..I think you went down into the Southwest. I think you were at Phoenix. Mr. Leupr. Who was in charge at the time? Mr. VALENTINE. I was. Mr. Lever. Did I have any particular purpose in going away and leaving you in charge, outside of my health? ; Mr. VANE, I think you felt it would give me a chance to see whether or not I could run the office. Mr. Levrr. Do you remember any arguments that were made to me in behalf of other candidates or other persons who might be eli- gible to the commissionership ? Mr. VaLentine. I do not think I know personally of any such arguments. I know that various people were mentioned. Of course there was a whole bunch of applicants. How far you were consulted by any of them I do not know. Mr. Lever. Do you remember the visit of a Mr. Hazewell, I think his name was, from Boston, to the office? Mr. VALENTINE. Was he the man who was in the Boston Transcript office here as an editorial writer at one time? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. VALENTINE. I think I remember his coming in to see you at one time. Mr. Leure. Do you remember in whose interest he rape Mr. VALENTINE. I do not know, but I should assume that it would be in behalf of the former editor of the Boston Transcript, a man by the name of Clement. : Mr. Leurr. Do you remember whose special candidate Mr. Clem- ent was? Mr. VaLenTINE. I think he was the Indian Rights candidate, if I recall correctly. Mr. Leure. Do you recall what my answer to Mr. Hazewell was? Mr. Vatentine. I recall roughly that you expressed yourself either to me, or to me as having said it to him, that he would not be—I do not know just how you expressed it—the idea was, he would not be the man for the place. Mr. Leupp. Did Mr. Hazewell suggest that I probably had some- body else in mind ? . Mr. VALENTINE. I do not know about that, sir. : Mr. Leupp. Perhaps I can refresh your memory by quoting a phrase. Do you remember his saying anything about continuing the dynasty ? Mr. een: Oh, I think there was something of that sort. Mr. Leupp. To whom did that refer? 2436 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VALENTINE. I suppose that referred to me. Mr. Leupp. Has the dynasty been continued ? ; Mr. VaLentine. I do not believe you would think so if you were to investigate some of the things I have done. Mr. Georce. What is your own view about it, Mr. Leupp? Mr. Leupp. So far as I can tell, Mr. George, Mr. Valentine has been absolutely free from my influence, whatever that might have been. Have I made any suggestions regarding appointments, promotions, policy, or anything of that sort within your recollection, and if so, will you please tell the committee what it was ? ; Mr. VALENTINE. J should say that you went to Africa in a more complete sense than the former President, and that you have been there ever since, as far as my handling of the office was concerned. You and I have hardly talked Indian business since you left. Mr. Leurr. I believe that is all, Mr. George. Mr. VaLentine. I should like to add to that, if I may, just this brief sentence. Mr. Grorce. To your answer ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, to this effect, that my coming into the Indian office as I did in March, 1905, just a month or so after Mr. Leupp took office, and being more intimately associated with him possibly than anybody else, or even than is usually customary between a secretary ‘and his chief, until he left office, I want to make just a general state- ment, that I never knew a man and I never expect to know another man who served his cause with more personal fidelity to the extent of his powers than Mr. Leupp. I want particularly to say that because of the fact that the personal relations which grew up between us at the time, and which will of course always continue, have been markedly separate from any question of official business or public life. I am perfectly well aware that there are many policies that I have instituted or merged which would not have had in any wise Mr Leupp’s concurrence. I just want to take this opportuntity of putting that statement on the record. Mr. Leurr. There is one additional question I just discovered. The other day in your testimony, Mr. Valentine, you spoke about making the family the unit of allotment. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Leurr. Do you recall any experiment being made in that line or squinting toward that? Mr. VatentineE. I do not think the idea—I would not by any means claim the origination of the idea. I think there was something that I built that on, but I do not recall now just what that was. Mr. Leurr. Do you recall the original Dawes law, and the change that was made in it a few years after its passage ? Mr. VatentTrnE. I do not recall that distinctly. Let us see, the act was passed in 1887, and there was an amendment in 1891, I believe. Mr. Leupp. What I am getting at is this: Do you remember what poe was made under the original Dawes law for the head of a amily ? Mr. VALENTINE. Oh, yes; I believe there he got the whole thing, and the children or the wife, or perhaps both, were not provided for. Mr. Leupp. The wives were not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; and later on there was a change by which the wives got their individual share of the land. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 24387 Mr. Georce. Let me make that a little bit clearer to myself. Mr. Leupp. It was an extraordinary situation, Mr. George. Mr. Grorce. The head of the family received the whole of it? Mr. Leupp. Let us say he received 640 acres, if it was a 320-acre allotment. Mr. Ward can probably correct me as to the amounts. Mr. Warp. I do not remember. I think that the allotment that was made under the original act of February 7, 1887, was made to the head of the family. In other words, the wife and the children were not considered. Mr. Meritr. May I make a statement? Mr. Warp. That is my recollection, but I would not be sure. Mr. Meritt. The act of 1887, known as the Dawes Act, the original act, provided that the head of the family may receive an allotment. That included the land that would ordinarily go to the wife. Mr. Leurr. That was my recollection. Mr. Meritt. It does not include the land of the children ? Mr. Lever. No. Mr. Meritr. They receive their special allotment? Mr. Warp. I am not sure about it, because it has been so long since I looked at the act. I ask Mr. Meritt because I think he is entirely familiar with it. Is the wife mentioned in it? Does not the law recite that the allotment shall be made to the head of the family ? Mr. Meritt. The wife is not mentioned. The law recites that the allotment shall be made to the head of the family, but that does not include the land that is allotted to the children. It only includes the land that under existing law would be allotted to the wife. Mr. Grorcr. The wife was under coverture, to use one of our terms, but enough land was given to the head of the house, the father, the husband, to cover the rights of the wife? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. Mr. Warp. No, sir; there was an absolutely arbitrary amount fixed, and the wife was not mentioned in the law. I have not seen that law in 10 years Mr. Grorce. Was sufficient allowed the husband to make an allow- ance for the wife as well? Mr. Warp. That depends entirely on the amount of land in the reservation. But the wife is not mentioned in the law. Mr. Grorce. But the children are ? Mr. Warp. I am not certain about that. I am inclined to believe that they are; that for a child of a certain age so many acres shall be given, and a child so many acres shall be given, and so on down the line. Mr. Grorce. That is only a passing matter. ; ; Mr. Warp. But, Mr. George, do not get it wrong in your mind that the husband’s allotment included the allotment of the wife, because it did not. The wife was not mentioned. Mrs. Grey. When an Indian was married to a white woman, she was the head of the family and she got it. ; Mr. Leupp. I am ready at any time to put in these documents [indicating], whether now or later. ; Mr. Georce. It might be well that they should go in now, because a large number of these questions relate to them. Mr. Burcu. Is that the Dawes Act? Mr. Greorce. No; there were a lot of papers that Mr. Leupp asked to be put in, and it did not seem to be appropriate at the time. so the 2438 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. chairman asked him to hold these until such time as he could properly put them in, and it might just as well be now as another time. Mr. Reporter, Mr. Leupp desires to put into the record as part of his testimony the following letters and two telegrams. . Mr. Leupp. May I make a little statement in connection with them ? Mr. Grorece. Yes. , : Mr. Leupp. This letter, dated October 12, 1905, I received from Secretary Hitchcock while I was at my farm on a vacation in October, 1905, calling me to Washington to meet Senator Clapp and himself to discuss this White Earth timber sale. It was on this occasion that Senator Clapp appealed to the President, and Secretary Hitchcock and I went up there with him. We argued the question out, I stand- ing for the proposed sale and Senator Clapp arguing against 1t. The President declined to interfere, and told Senator Clapp, if I remember correctly, that he had his recourse in an injunction suit if he wished to bring it, and SenatorClapp said that was his intention to bring one. Mr. Grorce. The President said that? Mr. Leupp. Yes, something to that effect. And then in the con- versation in some way a question arose as to the time when that injunction suit should be begun, and I said to the Senator, ‘At all events, Senator, if you are going to enjoin me, let me get those bids opened and find out what the prices are.’ The Senator answered, but I do not think he committed himself to it. I waited, as I believe I testified the other day, in my office, after the receipt of the news of the bids being opened, until quite a late hour in the evening expecting to be served, and being all ready to bring it into court because I wanted it tried out. The letter and telegrams are as follows: DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, SEcRETARY’S OFFICE, Washington, D. C., October 12, 1905. My Dzar CommissionEr: IJ duly received your letter of the 8th instant in reply to mine of the 6th (erroneously dated ‘‘October 13” owing to my stenographer having used a wrong calendar) and am happy to say that the appointment of both Mr. Blackmon and Mr. Kelly have been made by the President. J don’t want to interfere with any of your plans, especially if you contemplated going to Mohonk, but it seems to me a conference just now regarding the condition of affairs at White Earth, with respect to which we had some correspondence with Senator Clapp during the summer, should be had with as little delay as possible, for the follow- ing reasons: | ; I inclose copies of two telegrams addressed to the private secretary of Senator Clapp, dated respectively Atoka, Ind. T., October 6, and St. Paul, Minn., October 10, by ie last of which you will note that he is preparing to lay the White Earth matter before the President if, in his judgment, it appears necessary. Maj. McLaughlin is here, and brings with him two reports and very voluminous exhibits giving an account of several days’ council he had with the White Earth Indians regarding allotments, and also the proposed sale of timber, which reports I think it very important that we should take up with as little delay as possible, as they are quite voluminous, and you will note by his telegrams to his private secretary, that Senator Clapp is waiting for my final action in the matter. le I had purposed waiting until Judge Ryan could join in our conference, but he left last Sunday for Kansas, and will not return inside of two, and possibly three, weeks, which will delay a conclusion with regard to this White Earth matter much longer than is desirable. I hope you will find it convenient to be here on Monday. If so, please wire me at once. Yours, very truly, Hon. F. E. Leupp, Commissioner of Indian Affairs Tyringham, Berkshire County , Mass. E. A. Hircencock, Secretary. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 24389 {Telegram.} Atoxa, Inp. T., October 6, 1905. C. E. Ricnarps, 1447 Meridian Street, Washington, D. C.: Wish you would call upon Secretary Hitchcock and say to him that when Maj. McLaughlin was in St. Paul I met him and while the major was not over inclined to talk about matters I am very positive that he is in possession of some facts which if laid before the Secretary would result in an order abandoning the White Earth timber sale proposition, and I feel that I ought to ask the Secretary at least to defer action pending a request from him for such information as McLaughlin may possess. Not knowing whether Secretary Hitchcock is in Washington I wire you and if he is there you may present this telegram to him. Pe Moszs E. Cuappr. Sr. Paut, Minn., October 10, 1905. C. E. Ricwarpson, 1447 Meridian Street, Washington, D. C.: Do not understand the Secretary expected me to come to Washington unless it was necessary. If, after considering the case I have made, and hearing what McLaughlin ey have to say, he is still disposed to hold that the sale proceed, then I will come and urge my case personally, for I feel that it is of vital importance to the Indians to save them from the effect of the proposed so-called sale. But I do not want to come unless it is necessary to do so, to ee the carrying out of the proposed plan; and I want to be there when the President is there, if I come at all. See the Secretary and explain that. Moszs E. Crapp. Mr. Grorce. Then you had another series of letters that you wished to introduce. Mr. Leupp. These were two letters, one from myself to the Hon. Gifford Pinchot, dated October 24, 1905, and from myself to Mr. O. W. Price, Mr. Pinchot’s associate forester, dated November, 2, 1905. The letter to Mr. Pinchot is as follows: OcrosER 24, 1905. Hon. Grrrorp Pincuor, Forester Department of Agriculture, Washington, D. C. My Dear Mr. Pincuot: You were so kind as to offer me the other day your expert assitance in the good cause of procuring the very best prices possible for Indian lumber. Advertisements are now out for bids on the privilege of buying the timber on the White Earth Reservation wherever an Indian cares to sell. What ought I to get per thousand feet for the Indians on these purchases? I do not wish any one to know what figures are given me by you, or even that you are making an estimate forme. I have to conduct these bids with the utmost care, and get my ‘‘upset price” by means which the possible bidders will not suspect. I want, as you know, to have the Indians sell their timber at prices which they could not cavil at if they were white men; and it must be always borne in mind that the successful bidder will have whatever advantage may accrue from being permitted to put his mill on the reservation itself. . : : . If this gives him any advantage over others in being able to ship out the finished product instead of being required to get the logs out and saw them somewhere else, T assume that this ought to be counted as a factor in the price demanded. ; The varieties of wood which will be offered by the Indians for sale include white pine, Norway pine, jack pine, oak, elm, basswood, maple, and ash, and I should like the judgment of your experts on the price to be charged per thousand feet for each of these varieties separately. Sincerely yours, Franos E. Levurr. This letter was written to Mr. Pinchot after the conversation with Secretary Hitchcock to which I referred the other day. In my tes- timony I was under the impression that I had myself consulted Mr. Pinchot directly. It was only by the discovery of these two letters that I had that impression corrected. I wrote him, as yousee. The 2440 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Secretary asked me what I had done, whether I had got an expert, and I went over and told him that Mr. Bruce had been turned over to me. Then the Secretary wanted to know if I had included all the terms of sale. I got this letter and showed it to him. He took it, and then looking over the advertised terms of sale or the regula- tions, whatever it was, in which the five-year contract was mentioned, he called my attention to the fact that I had not mentioned the five- year term in which the price would remain the same, that I had not mentioned it in that letter. Whereupon I telephoned over to the office or in some other way found out that Mr. Pinchot was out of town, and having at the same time received from Mr. Price, his rep- resentative, a letter which is referred to here as Mr. Griffith’s letter, I do not remember what tt was, but Mr. Griffith was the Wisconsin forester, I think. I sent Mr. Price this note. The Mr. Griffith mentioned in the letter which follows was the State forester of Wisconsin, and holds that position still, as I am informed. I have no recollection of what Mr. Griffith’s letter referred to. The letter is as follows: NovemBer 2, 1905. My Dear Mr. Price: Thank you for Mr. Griffith’s letter. Yours of October 26, inclosing it, came while I was out of town. I shall try to have his letters promptly assembled for you to read. When you kindly offered to have Mr. Bruce get us those figures for White Earth, I don’t know whether I took pains to remind you that the prices are to be those which a man should give who is allowed the exclusive privilege of putting up his mill on the reservation, and that those prices can not be raised for five years. If you will kindly have Mr. Bruce keep these qualifying factors in mind I shall be much obliged. Sincerely yours, O. W. Pricz, Esq., Associate Forester, Department of Agriculture, Forrst Service, Washington, D. C. The finding of these letters also recalls certain other things. I remember the evening that the Secretary gave them back to me. He had kept both of them. I took them over to him, and he had them in his private drawer or his pocket. When he handed them back to me he handed them back with two other documents which I have here, but neither of them refers to any of this matter—they are separate things—which he had been carrying for some time also. I was start- ing away from the office when he called me back and said, “I have a co for you,” and he took this book, which is a bound volume of uis report for 1905, and which was printed with a blank space here lindicating] and he put his signature in there. It already had m name printed on it, and he handed it over to me, and as nearly as can imagine, I must have taken these things simply for safekeeping and slipped them in here. At all events I took the book home and it has been lying there with my other autograph volumes ever since, and I have hunted high and low for these letters and have just found them. Here is another letter which must have been given back to me at the same time, as I find it with these two that I have just read. This bears simply on the Charles Wright correspondence. It is as follows: DECEMBER 9, 1905. F. E. Leupp, Commissioner. Rev. J. A. GInFILLAN, 1800 Vernon Avenue NW., Washington, D. C. Dear Mr. Griritian: I trust that in the interest of any Chippewa who may have been wronged in the recent allotment, you will do all in your power to encourage the WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2441 fullest freedom in bringing real cases to the notice of this office. I am especially desirous that all persons to whom allotments were made, but who had no lawful claim to be allotted, should be exposed and their allotments canceled. It seems to me a reasonably easy matter to prove one of these cases, as, for example, it must be within the knowledge of the larger part of the people on the reservation whether any of these allottees was, or was not, a resident of the reservation at the time of the allotment. It is, as you realize, of the first consequence that these cases shall be made out promptly, and I fear that if the Indians alone deal with them there may be fatal delays. I thought, from your interest in the Indians and from their friendly asso- ciation with you, you could do more toward stirring them to activity than anyone else I know. I should deplore ee the subject dropped till it was too late to do anything, and then have them come forward, as they did in the recent petition for tearing up the whole allotment program, and assert that they had suffered wrong, only to have the Government respond that there was nothing now that it could do. I write you this in a personal capacity, and out of a pure desire to help the Indians where I can, free from the trammels of official formalism. Sincerely yours, F. E. Leupp. I have one more document here. This is an extract from my annual report for 1905. It was the last thing I think you men- tioned. My only purpose in putting this in is because after I testified the other day, and could not recall any conversation that I had when I was on the White Earth Reservation about the conditions there after the Clapp amendment had been passed, I was asking Mr. Van Meter if he recalled my visit and he said ‘‘Yes;” and he cor- rected my statement that there had been no conversation that I could remember. He said he could remember our talking about it; but as he recalled it at that time nobody suspected the extent to which this thing has gone. This shows the attitude of the office on that subject. . May I make one more statement in connection with that White Earth timber sale? Mr. Grorce. Yes. Mr. Leupp. Resuming my remarks on the events preliminary to the opening of the bids of the White Earth timber, when I presented this Bruce matter to the Secretary, as I recall now, since seeing Mr. Bruce’s report, I gave him a copy of that report which Mr. Bruce left with me for him. The Secretary took off the sheet that had the rices on, which appears in Mr. Bruce’s copy, and kept that himself, having meantime jotted down what I recalled as a pencil memoran- dum. You recall that I spoke of that in my testimony. It was sealed and put in my own safe. That was simply for the refresh- ment of my own recollection. The Secretary carried the sheet that had the prices on with him and handed the other back to me, saying we might need it for revising our regulations. We never did have occasion to revise them, because the revising was to be done after the award was made and when we came to present the regulations to the contractor. Mr. Grorcs. This modifies a great deal of the testimony you gave on that subject? Mr. Leupp. I could not give anything except from sparse recollec- tions before. . Mr. Grorce. How are you reminded of this now? Mr. Leurr. By the seeing of Mr. Bruce’s report. If you will remember, in my testimony I said that my recollection was that he as us some amendments to the regulations at the same time that e gave us the prices that should be charged. 78822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——59 9442 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Greoree. Yes. ; Mr. Leupp. But I could not recall anything further about it. Now I remember the whole thing. As soon as I saw his document I looked it over for the list of prices, and there I saw it, it being on the last page by itself. The Secretary took that and carried it with him. I do not know that I ever got that back. If he had given it back to me at the time he gave me these other things, then I should have been very glad to present it; but you have got a copy of it in the record of Mr. Bruce’s testimony. . When I came to consult the Secretary about the form of letter that should be written, recommending the turning down of the bids, I already at that time had had a letter prepared in the office; but as nobody except myself in the office, and the Secretary over at his place, knew about the prices and about who had been working for us, I said nothing there. I just ordered that the letter should be got up, and, to the best of my recollection, it contained a recommenda- tion that the award should be made to Mr. Fred. Herrick.. When I took that over to the Secretary and he compared the prices with the ones he had, he said, ‘‘This, of course, ends the whole matter,” so I preserved simply the formal parts and rewrote the paragraph where the decision is reached. I took that over, and at that time had Mr. Bruce’s name in the first draft that I made. When the Secretary saw that he said, ‘Mr. Bruce’s name had not better go in there.” T said, ‘Why not?’ He said, “Because we won’t want to use him hereafter.” Until Mr. Bruce came here and reminded me that we had used him afterwards, I had forgotten it entirely. And the men- tion of that fact recalls that, some months after, the Secretary asked me if I could get this same man to go down and look over the timber on the Quallah boundary in North Carolina, and Mr. Bruce was engaged and went down there. For the reason stated, I left Mr. Bruce’s name out of my letter recommending the turning down of these bids. In regard to the reference to Senator Clapp’s name there, that was a a case of pique on my part. J am perfectly willing to confess it. was very angry at the time because of the fight made on me, and I said to the Secretary, ‘‘Under the circumstances I think I ought to put Senator Clapp’s name into the letter.’’ The Secretary had some doubts, and we discussed its propriety, and so on. I said, ‘I can put it in pleasant terms, but I want to make him share whatever responsibility there is in this thing,” and so I put in there that Senator Clapp had agreed, as he had by telegraph, that this was too low a price. That was one of the things that he had been contending for when he was talking to the President and the others. He put it in the first place that this was a monopoly, and in the second place that there was a strong suspicion in Minnesota that we were playing into the hands of what was called ‘‘The Wisconsin lumber ring,” and in the third place that the prices we would get would be ridiculously low. When he confirmed it by the telegram from wherever he was, _. then—I suppose in Minneapolis—saying that these prices were absurd, and that he protested in the name of the Gide etc., I wanted to make some record of that in this letter of recommendation, | and the Secretary allowed me to do so. Mr. Georce. That refers to the first bunch of letters you intro-; |’ duced here ? eal WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2443 Mr. Leupp. No, you had it already in the record. Mr. Burcu. This matter [indicating a memorandum] is one which I think might more appropriately go in with Mr. Ward’s testimony when it shall come, if it is his act. Mr. Leupp. That is perfectly agreeable to me. Mr. Burcu. His preparation. Still I do not care about it one way or the other. Mr. Grorce. Are you going to ask Mr. ‘Vard to take the stand ? Mr. Burcu. As soon as we get through with Mr. Leupp. Mr. GzorGE. Perhaps it would be better to have it go in then. Mr. Burcu. I am very glad to have the memorandum. I think itis very instructive. Did you prepare it in fact, Mr. Ward ? Mr. «arp. I prefer to be sworn before I answer any questions. Mr. Burcu. If there is any doubt about it Mr. Warp. There is not any doubt about it. I prepared it, but any questions I answer before this committee I want to answer under oath. Mr. Burcu. If there is any doubt about our being able to prove it by Mr. Ward we had better Mr. Warp. There is no doubt about your being able to prove it by me. I will father it. Mr. Georce. Mr. Leupp came and brought this paper here. , If he recognizes the paper we can just have it put in here. Do you certify that you remember that paper marked ‘‘Memorandum” ? Mr. Levpr. I remember this paper as one that came into my hands, and my impression is that it was prepared at my instance to acquaint me with all that had been done before I came back to the office in the fall of 1905. Mr. Burcu. Excuse me, when you say, ‘‘at your instance,” do you mean details worked out there? Mr. Leupp. No, sir, because I knew nothing about the details. Mr. Burcu. All right. Mr. Warp. Just for the purpose of refreshing Mr. Leupp’s recol- lection—that is why I dked that I be sworn. You know that there were certain things that were on up the line, for instance, up at the White. House—certain people sent up there—— ; Mr. Leurr. Do you mean Senator Clapp, Secretary Hitchcock, and myself? Mr. Warp. I do, but I wanted to say that under oath. They were up there raising a fog, and you asked me to give you the story, and I did. Mr. Leupp. That is all right. Mr. Chairman, I am perfectly willing—— Me Geonee, In good time we will ask him under oath all about that. This is simply to get it in an orderly way, to bring in the matter in such order as Judge Burch would prefer. Mr. Burcu. That is allright. | . . : . That is all right. I would just as soon it came in now if there is any question about it. It would be a little more natural to come in in Mi Ward’s testimony, but we can show it to him later. I would just as soon it went in now. Mr. Farr. There is one little matter that perhaps could be cleared up-at this time. I met Mr. Bruce on the street the other day and he stated that he had looked up and found that his compensation and 9444 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. that of Mr. Warren was paid by the Forest Service. You remember that we were unable to locate that. And he also said he was unable to find his report as to prices, if he made any, but that if he did he would make it directly to his chief, and the information would come directly to our office from that source. Mr. Grorce. By “our office” do you mean the Forestry Office ? Mr. Farr. The Indian Office. aving been connected with the service, I accidently said ‘‘our office.” Mr. Leupp. I should like to put in as an exhibit an extract from the Report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for 1906, page 153, of the pamphlet edition, headed “White Earth Reservation,” and continuing on page 154 to the end of the paragraph. Mr. Burce. at is the nature of that? I have not seen it. Mr. Leupp. That is simply showing the attitude of the office on this Clapp rider, so called. Mr. Burcu. May I ask one question on this? Mr. Grorce. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Do I understand now that you have found, Mr. Leupp, the paper that was missing, the report of Mr. Bruce? . Leupp. No, sir; the report that he left here with the com- mittee was the one to which I was referring. The excerpt from my annual report for 1905 is as follows: WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The current Indian appropriation act (34 Stat. L., 353) removes all restrictions as to sale, incumbrance, or taxation of allotments within the White Earth Reservation in Minnesota, now or hereafter held by mixed-blood Indians, and the trust deeds heretofore or hereafter executed by the Indian Department are ‘‘declared to pass the title in fee simple, or such mixed bloods, upon application, shall be entitled to receive a patent in fee for such allotments.” This legislation was opposed by the Indian Office on two grounds: First, because any indiscriminate drawing of a blood line between two classes of citizens seems to me opposed to the spirit of the Constitution and American ideals generally; and, in the second place, ‘because, although many mixed-blood Indians of the White Earth Reservation are competent to manage their own affairs, many more are not, and the proposed law seemed to hold out a perilous suggestion to unscrupulous persons to take advantage of Indians and procure their lands for less than value. These fears of the unwisdom of the legislation were early realized. On July 18 a leading newspaper in Minneapolis published an article charging that disgraceful conditions existed at Detroit, Minn., caese land speculators were plying the Indians with liquor in order to secure deeds or mortgages to their lands for small amounts; that the town had been filled with drunken Tndigns since June 21, when the act became effective, and that 250 allotment mortgages had been filed at Detroit and many more in Norman County. The office at once telegraphed its agent at White Earth to ae ntael the matter, and he answered by telegraph on July 19 that many of the mixed bloods had taken advantage of the provisions of the act to sell or mortgage their lands; that some of them were squandering the proceeds for intoxicants; but that this was true of only a limited number, and that no case had come under his observation where an Indian had first been plied with liquor to secure his consent to oe of his land, Though not so bad, therefore, as indicated by the newspaper publication, conditions were bad enough to justify the stand taken by the office while the legislation was pending. I am now making such an investigation of individual cases where sharp practise is charged as will enable me to turn over the facts to the local prosecuting officers for such action against the wrongdowers as the law may warrant. Mr. Grorer. Now, Judge Burch, we defer to you. Mr. Vatentine. Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, a moment. I spoke yesterday of a brief five lines from a speech of mine which I wish to insert. I have looked over the whole speech, and it is very brief. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2445 It is so absolutely true of what the Indian Service was like when Mr. Leupp took hold, of what it was like when he left, of what it was like when I took hold, of what it will be like when I leave, and of what it will be like when my successor takes hold, unless some very funda- mental changes that ought to be made are made, that I should like to insert the whole speech in the record with your permission. It is entitled ‘‘What the public should know about the Indian Bureau,”’ and it is on the line of the questions you were asking about publicity the other day. It is as follows: WHAT THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE INDIAN BUREAU, {Address of Hon. Robert G. Valentine.] The people of the United States ought to know certain things about their Indian Bureau. Throughout the country are groups of people and numerous individuals who know a good deal about its work in this or that particular; but both these and the people at large know too little about the two or three fundamental principles in the light of which all the multiform activities of the Indian Service fall into well-ordered array in an advance toward a single goal. In the minds of most people the Indian Service is a mere hodgepodge of activities. Indians are going to this or that kind of school, being allotted, farming allotments, leasing allotments, selling allotments, raising stock, working in the woods, learning to nrigate, drawing per capita payments in some cases and rations in others, owning bank accounts of all sizes from a few dollars to many thousands, going to church and engaging in pagan rites, dealing shrewdly with traders or becoming an easy mark for them, developing all kinds of diseases, getting drunk and even, to the surprise of many naive neighbors, keeping sober; loafing here, and there making some of the best workmen the United States possesses; and all these various activities are kept in further confusion by the kaleidescopic changesintroduced by the rapidly developing economic and social life of the white people scattered more and more around and through the Indian country. And in the popular mind which hears more or less about this apparent chaos, there sits in a kind of semiparalyzed control of it all the Indian Bureau, groping with such energies as it possesses more or less feebly among the thousands of statutes which go to make up Indian law, the hun- dreds of court decisions, the mass of ill-digested regulations, and turning out five or six hundred letters and decisions in a day, and solemnly mailing them to the reserva- tions and allotted districts scattered through 26 States, hoping in a half-conscious way that each document will fit the case about as well as a coat made in Paris would meet the need of a western ranchman its maker had never seen. This apparent chaos in Indian affairs is only true superficially. There are a few fundamental principles which explain these pee unifying them and vitalizing them into a single great progressive force. I confess that these principles frequently lie deeply hidden, and in many quarters would not even be suspected; but they are there and they are the roots of accomplishment. In order that in the few decades which remain in which it will be still possible for the United States to do anything for Indians the best results may be accomplished, it is necessary for the people at large to realize what these principles are, to assist in bringing them to the surface, and to demand of the Indian Bureau and of the Congress their intelligent and forceful appli- cation. : I am in no way reflecting on the achievements of the past in Indian affairs—in Congress, in the Indian Bureau, and in the country at large—when I put before you the exact condition of things as they are to-day. Iam merely asking you to face with me a work that lies before us, that we may better accomplish it. ; ; The Indian Service is to-day wide open to the whole country for inspection, both in the office at Washington and on the reservations where the Indians live. Speaking as a member of the Government, I say that we have nothing to conceal, and everyone, good or bad, who has any worthy or unworthy interest in Indian affairs is welcome at all times to come to see me. I was talking with a man the other day whom I know to bea liar, and-a friend of mine protested against my receiving sucha man. He thought that I should not countenance such a person by consulting with him or with another one whom I know to be in an underhanded way inimical to me; but I replied that I have no personal feelings of the kind that would make me resent the presence of such a person while I am Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I can no more find time for rows in this fight than can a soldier in a charge. I must listen to all, gather every ‘scrap of information and advice, seek to see every rock and shoal and hidden danger, 2446 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. and think of nothing but of using the knowledge so gained to better the condition of Indians. While I am in this work I am enemy to no man, personally, in the United States, but only to the things which get in the way of the Indians. [Applause.] But I can not meet and hear and see all the good and all the bad myself. I must have eyes and ears in the field, going openly or secretly, seeing clearly, hearing fully, all that there is. Congress must give me—and I use the word ‘‘must” speaking as one of the people of the United States who elect Congressmen—a corps of inspectors who should be at least 30 as high-grade men jn business training and moral sense as this country affords. At present, more or less accidentally, I have some three or four of this grade. These inspectors should be pad enough so that they can give their lives to the work. The Indian Service is weak in the head, weak-eyed, and hard of hearing. The ten millions or so which go to make up the annual appropriation by Congress for running the service is not well apportioned. It does not recognize the necessity for leadership. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are wasted because the managers are not paid business salaries. Likewise we must have real superintendents. It is possible to get Cabinet officers for far less money than they can earn in private business. It may, perhaps, be possible to get, commissioners on the same terms, but it is not possible, as a rule, so to get the 170 men on the ground. If the head of a great corporation paid a man in charge of one of his plants to handle a property valued at something like the number of millions involved on the Osage Reservation less than ten thousand a year, he would be crim- inally negligent in the eyes of good business. It is criminal negligence to pay the superintendent of the Osage Reservation only $2,000a year. Iam not asking fora cent of increase over the present appropriations. If Congress will do what I ask, I will take far less in appropriations than at present, because with well-paid men I could save more than their salaries each year. In many cases the tribal funds could well be taxed for good salaries to their own safety and preservation from waste. But this business side is the least important side. Superintendents should be big men, for Indian affairs is above all a human business. Only by the closest personal acquaintance with the Indians under his charge can the superintendent hope to do the right thing for them. His place is out on the reservation, not in the office; and out there are all the intricate problems of humanity which demand a great leader. There, too, in the field the multifarious activities in the Indian Service fall into transparent orderliness under three main heads—health, schools, and industries. It is possible to do only two things with the Indians—to exterminate them, or to make them into citizens. Which ever we choose should be done in the most business- like manner. If we choose extermination, we should do it suddenly, painlessly and completely; but, instead of frankly engaging in that course, the country has set itself to make the Indians into citizens. It has no business to bungle this job as it is now doing, any more than, if the course of extermination were now to be decided on, it would have any business to bungle that. Our present course is, as a matter of fact, a cross between extermination and citizenship. If we would escape a disgrace greater than any which has attended this Indian business yet, we must stop at the beginning of this twentieth century and think clearly about the Indians, and set ourselves reso- lutely to certain clean and high courses. The whole American people must do this thinking. No group, no section alone can do it effectively. The pressure of private interest, the clutch of private greed, the pobtical interests of public men, unless smoothed for them by wide public demand, are too omnipresent, too overwhelming WN ote less than the attention of the whole people turned to the Indian to avert. pplause. And this course which the thinking of all the people will make clear demands of us more than would be demanded in the case of the backward among our own people, or in the case of the immirgant. We are dealing with a people without generations back of them trained more or less in the ways of civilization. Within the next few decades we must foreshorten the road which is really centuries long, and while leading the Indian along it we must of necessity try to do in months what nature should do in years. We must not forget the order of the process. For example, an Indian is not ready yet to live under a perfectly constructed, highly developed irrigation system. He can not be planted under it all at once, any more than a child from the east side of New York can be taken healthily in one jump into a Fifth Avenue home. He must first be given a little crude teaching from which he can see results, even though that teaching is only a plaything and a matter of one season. In one year, if gone at in this way, many Indians could be taught to use a highly developed irrigation system who, without that preliminary training adapted to their growing intelligence, would forever fail. All this means that our work must be frankly philanthropic—using not the charity which pauperizes, but the help which nourishes self-help. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9447 Having undertaken this frankly philanthropic task, we can, if we recognize that there are means in our possession as a people to do it without bungling, see the course plainly. Prime above all other considerations in dealing with these 300,000 Indians in our midst is their health. There is no use in continuing all this great machinery of the present and deceiving ourselves with hopes of the future, if we are allowing tuber- culosis and all rotten diseases of the blood to creep among these people. Liquor must be kept away from them more than it is kept away from our own weaklings. Rations must be frankly and wisely administered to the sick and to the old. No other of the means by which we would save the Indian to citizenship must be allowed to interfere with this prevention of disease. I am frequently met when I wish to take an Indian from a school because he is sick and can be cured somewhere else and the danger of his affecting some other pupils be averted, by the statement ‘‘ You will cripple my school.” Do the schools exist for the Indians, or the Indians for the schools? at is the use of a maimed and poisoned citizen? The people should give us an Indian medical service unexcelled in the country, to go into the schools and to ride the reservations preventing disease. The second great principle apts et all our Indian work is that concerned with the schooling of the Indians. They should all be taught to speak the English language, to read easily, to speak objectively, to write clearly, and to figure easily. They should be taught to say ‘‘good morning” and ‘‘good afternoon,”’ to look people squarely in the eyes. Beyond these essentials, I care not how far we go, provided we go consistently with other important means of education. I am not worrying as to the respective merits of the five classes of schools which we now have, but I am worrying as to the results these schools produce, and by which alone they should be measured. You can tell little whether a school is good or not by looking at the school—you must look at its graduates. ‘‘By their fruits ye shall know them.’”’ But one thing must never be for- gotten—that all our distinctively Indian schools are only a temporary expedient. The tendency must be unceasing toward Indians in white schools and whites in Indian schools. [Applause.] The third great principle is that concerned with industries. In this connection consider with me for a moment the plant at our disposal for the industrial training of the Indians. The school in the narrow sense is only one item in this plant. The school in the broader sense is the property owned by the Indians, or given them by the Gov- ernment; the per capita payments; the five millions of moneys belonging to individual Indians deposited in national banks throughout the country the supplies purchased for them by the Government; their ranges; the water flowing through their lands; the forests growing on them; the minerals under them; the portions allotted to each individual Indian; the leasing or sale of parts of these allotments—the money value of it all, running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. In size it is equal to over twice that of the State of New York, scattered through 26 States in areas ranging from a few hundred acres to areas as large as some of the smaller States of the Union; all this to assist us, if handled rightly, in bringing the meager 300,000 persons to safety. The ageregete wealth of our own schools and colleges is hardly larger, and yet they train effectively over 18,000,000 students a year. Was there ever such a wonderful means to a clearly comprehended end? Yet, as we are handling it at present, I sometimes feel that the Indian himself is lost sight of beneath it all. The only way to clear the ruck is to remember that every cent and fiber of this plant, whether in the growing tree or in the fashioned plow, exists for the education of the Indian in that largest school of all, the experience of actual life. [Applause.] This is the thing which I must make all those particular groups scattered throughout the country see, all the associations interested in the welfure of the Indians see, all the neighbors of the Indians living around the reservations see, all the white people scat- tered among the allotments see, all the 5,000 field pe of the Indian Service see, all the 180 employees in the Indian Office at Washington see. Only by all the people comprehending it can these lesser groups be made to see. _ ach I venture to say that if you ask the average employee of the Indian Service in the field just what was the end in view in letting an Indian lease part of his allotment, he could not give you any very clear idea. I know many a one in the Indian Office at Washington could not. We must wake them all to clear comprehension. I need not mention here the hundreds of faithful, self-sacrificing people who are helping the Indians. All that can and should be said in their praise can not obscure the dry rot that encompasses and paralyzes things as they are and will be until the people and the Congress act. . LS If it be possible, as I believe it is, to bring these three principles of health and schools and industries to the front, the service will waken into full conciousness and intelli- gence. The superintendent who writes in for $700 to paint his buildings will not be told that there is no money, and have to sit and see deterioration to the extent of thousands of dollars going on. The superintendent who writes in to say that he needs 2448 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. more rations for the old people will not.be told by the clerk in the office that it is the policy of the office to discontinue rations. The superintendent who allows hundreds of able-bodied Indians to lease their allotments and so acquire an ignorance of want which would slowly emasculate their energics will not be allowed to go unchecked. The sales of parts of Indians’ allotments which are more than they can make use of themselves, will be encouraged, but the money will not remain in the banks; it will go out to be applied in the building of houses with several rooms, in the purchase of tools for agriculture, and stock, or will furnish the means of increased skill in the trades. The bona fide white settler must come in; the land speculatot must go. Broad powers should be given by Congress to the executive officers of the Government by which in such matters as the allotments of Indians these executive officers can use their discretion. Allotments on reservations ready for it can be pushed, but allot- ments on others by no means ready for it can be held back. "There are many cases where allotments should follow actual settlement by the Indians. There are very few cases where all of a tribe should be allotted as a blanket proposition. Finally, one great force, perhaps above all others, must be met and overcome. It seems as if in many white men there existed a different moral code among themselves and between themselves and Indians. Men who would not think of stealing from white men apparently consider it no crime to steal from Indians. I am confronted now in sonert distinct parts of the country by thieving from Indians which would make a highwayman blush—he takes some chances. These thieves felt, and, unless it lies within my power to make them mistaken, feel that they ran no risks. In one sense these thieves are not so much to blame as are the American people who have made their dishonesty so easy. IfI had not the proof of these things in my possession, they are so astounding that I doubt if I should believe their existence myself; yet I think I have such proof as will convince juries. If the people of the United States will take note of all these things these evils could disappear in a few years. They will not disappear until some fundamental legislation is passed by Congress in response to the will of the people. [Applause.] fany of you have remembered to this time some of the things I have just said, you will see that the first thing in my mind is the health of the Indians. I have asked Congress in our annual estimates with the almost contemporary suggestion and heart- iest support on the part of the Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Ballinger, for $50,000 to further organize our medical service. Mr. Chairman, the Vice President, who is with us here, assisted last year in giving us a fund to begin with to meet an emergency proposition, in the way of trachoma and tuberculosis. It seems to me thzre is no one thing that the country should do more important than this. I have asked Dr. Murphy, at present engaged in organizing our service, to occupy the first ten minutes. I have pleasure in introducing to you Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, Medical Supervisor of the Indian Service. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, have you now prepared the list of attorneys having contracts with the Indians respecting claims before Congress or before the Court of Claims of the United States ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir; I think I have what you wish. I have here some papers prepared in the Indian Office and just handed to me by Mr. Meritt. The book is known as ‘‘Miscellaneous Indian Docu- ments, Fifty-second Congress, second session, Contracts with Attor- neys, Senate Executive Document No. 18, volume 45 of Indian con- tracts.” It is labeled below ‘‘Indian Contracts.’ This volume is evidently an Indian Office library volume and they could not spare it from their records. On page 766 of this volume and following —— Mr. Burcu. How far? Mr. VALENTINE. Going apparently to the bottom of page 772. Mr. Burcu. I have not seen it and do not know anything about it, but I think this committee in their investigation need it. Mr. Grorce. Yes. Mr. VaLentine. This book contains contracts made between Indian tribes and attorneys from January 1, 1880, and supplemented by these documents. That carries the contracts down to 1891. Mr. Burcu (interrupting witness). It is my view of the present scope of the investigation as suggested by the chairman that this WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9449 matter, although printed now in a public document, should be re- printed at this time so that it may he fresh and in the hands of all resent Members of Congress, executive officers, and other persons interested, so that they may have in connection with the general scope of this investigation this whole subject freshly printed and easy to make use of. I will offer it. If it is accepted, all right. It ma be copied by the stenographer into the record and the book returned. Mr. Grorce. It has material relation to what has gone before? Mr. Burcu. There has been testimony .heretofore showing that about $4,000,000 have been paid by Indians for attorneys on such contracts. I understand that the subject of contracts for attorneys for Indians in the Court of Claims suits is quite a burning matter. That is quite an important matter being considered now. I have been. informed by the present commissioner, Mr. Valentine, that he has had it under consideration, or has under consideration the prepa- ration of a bill for reformatory purposes on that line, and it is quite likely that Congress may desire to ferialats upon that subject. Ido not wish to say that they ought to, because that is a matter for them to judge. I know what I would do very quickly if I had the manage- ment ofit. I therefore offer it. Mr. GroreE. Very well; from page 766 to page 772 of the above- mentioned volume will be copied into the record. The matter referred to is as follows: oS ww tH N WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. “pusq pres poelapual sadrAies . 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Mr. Burcu. Now, continue, Mr. Valentine. Mr. VALENTINE. The list in that book runs from 1880 to 1891. [ have here, Mr. Chairman, two memoranda which carry all contracts, I am told, from 1891 on to the present time. I have a third memo- randum Mr. Burcu. Let us dispose of those two first. Does that complete all the contracts in claims that were presented to Congress or to the Court of Claims in suit? D Mr. VALENTINE. That is my understanding, sir, except the ones in this third memorandum, which are existing contracts now unexpired. Mr. Burcu. Still executory—that is, in process Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Have these been closed out ? Mr. VaLENTINE. These have all been closed out. Mr. Burcu. Let me see how voluminous they are. Mr. VaLentine. But they are very essential for the record. Mr. Burcu. Without attempting to go into detail, so that the whole subject may be before Congress and any others interested, I offer them in evidence. I want to make a complete chain down to the present moment from 1880. Mr. Groree. If the first seemed material, these seem material, so they may be admitted. [Land sales. WDW.] MEMORANDUM. The following is a list of contracts entered into, or existing, in 1891 and to the present time, between various bands and tribes of Indians (except the Five Civilized Tribes), and attorneys, showing the names of the attorneys, the amount of compensation pro- vided for, term of the contracts, and date of approval by the Interior Department, according to the contracts as recorded in the Indian Office: ‘ Members of Absentee Shawnee and Delaware bands of Indians, with E. B. Townsend and George 8. Chase, term of the contract is for five years from its date, May 20, 1890, and provides for a payment of 15 per cent of all money recovered. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on April 25, 1894, on condition that the compensation to be paid thereunder shall be 10 per cent of amount found due and payable to the dif- ferent members of White Turkey’s band of Absentee Shawnee, and no others. Big Jim band, Absentee Shawnee Indians, with W. S. Field. Term of contract three months from the date of its approval by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, unless matters shall be sooner determined. Compensation $250 a month and necessary expenses incurred by reason of employment. Approved by the Secretary of the Inter- ior on March 16, 1898, for three months from January 1, 1898, providing that all expenses of the attorney shall not exceed $750. Fees and expenses allowed, $967.95. Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians, with Samuel J. Crawford, M. G. Reynolds, John G. Miles, and D. B. Dyer. Date of contract August 20, 1889, term five years from date thereof, compensation 8 per cent of all sums recovered up to $500,000, 4 per cent on all sums above $500,000 and less than $1,000,000, and 3 per cent on all sums over $1,000,000, provided that the entire fee shall not exceed $120,000. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on. February 5, 1890. Paid in 1891 $67,500 to attorneys. Fond du Lac band of Chippewa Indians, with Joshia M. Vale, B. F. Hutchins, and John Brennan. Date of contract January 31, 1889, term 10 years from date thereof, corpenattien $600, and a further sum equal to 10 per cent of the amount recovered for the Indians. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 25, 1889. Paid to attorneys in 1892 $2,644.65. Fond du Lac band of Chippewa Indians, with Josiah M. Vale, Benjamin F. Hutchins, and John Brennan. Compensation 25 cents for each acre recovered for the Indians, or a sum of money equal to 10 per cent of the gross amount received. Term of contract 10 years from its date, February 13, 1895, Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on June 3, 1895, on condition that the fee shall not be more than 10 per cent of the amount recovered, for the Indians, and if land is recovered, the fee shall be calculated on the value of the land at a rate of $1.25 per acre. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2461 Ceepeee Indians of Lake Superior, with Rufus H. Thayer, and John M. Rankin. Date of contract March 21, 1896, compensation 10 per cent of whatever sums may be collected by the attorneys for the Indians. Term 10 years from its date. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on October 16, 1896. Paid to attorneys in 1904, $4,800.14. Mississippi band of Chippewa Indians of the White Earth Agency, in Minnesota, with W. F. Campbell, term one year from July 1, 1897, compensation $125 a month and $3 per diem for expenses. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on August 26, 1897. Paid to attorney in 1897 and 1898, $2,542.22. Mississippi band of Chippewa Indians of the White Earth Agency, with W. F. Campbell. Term two years from November 9, 1898. Compensation $125 a month and $3 per diem for expenses. Approved for one year on November 28, 1898. ee for six months on May 16, 1900. Paid to attorney in 1898, 1899, 1900, $3.407.50. Mille Lac band of Chippewa Indians, with Gustave H. Beaulieu, compensation $400 for services to be med in connection with a visit of a delegation to Washing- ton. The contract to be in existence from the time the delegation leaves for Washing- ton until it returns. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 15, 1898. Turtle Mountain band of,Chippewa Indians, with James M. E. O’Grady and Charles J. Maddux, compensation 5 per cent of amount secured to the Indians up to and including $1,000,000, and 10 per cent of amount secured in excess of $1,000,000. Term two years from the date of the approval thereof by the Secretary of the Interior. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 12, 1903, on condition that the maximum amount of compensation to be paid the attorneys shall not exceed $50,000, and that the approval of the contract shall not be considered in any manner as a recognition of the claims of the Indians. Conditional approval accepted by the attorneys. Paid to attorneys under act of April 21, 1904, $19,000. Pillager Band of Chippewa Indians, with Gus H. Beaulieu, date of contract Novem- ber 1, 1898. Term seven months from November 1, 1898, compensation $125 a month and $3 a day for expenses. Disapproved by the Secretary of the Interior on December 8, 1898; but this action was set aside on March 27, 1899, and the contract a by the Secretary of the Interior. Paid to attorney in 1899, $1,511. hippewa Indians of White Earth, Minnesota, with Chauncey E. Richardson, term of contract three years from September 1, 1906, compensation $250 a month, and $150 a month for expenses. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 19, 1906, for two years from date of approval, the compensation of the attorney to be $250 a month and actual and necessary traveling and incidental expenses, when approved by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, not to exceed $150 a month. . Chippewa Indians of White Earth Reservation, Minn., with Chauncey E. Rich- ardson. Term of contract one year from November 18, 1908, compensation $250 a month and $150 a month for expenses. Approved by the Assistant Secretary of the Interior on November 19, 1908, as to salary of $250 a month and actual and necessary expenses, not to exceed $150 a month. Accepted by the attorney as approved. ite Earth Band of Chippewas with Louis A. Pratt, hired as assistant counsel to assist C. E. Richardson in litigation affecting title to swamp land in the ceded Chip- pewa Reservation of Minnesota. Compensation $500. Approved by the Assistant Secretary of the Interior on February 25, 1908. Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians with Robert V. Belt and W. T. Crawford. Term of contract five years from December 5, 1895, compensation 10 per cent of all amounts that may be recovered, provided that if it shall be necessary for said claims to be prose- cuted in the courts of the United States, in that event the compensation shall be 15 percent. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 6, 1896, on condition that no greater fee shall be paid than 10 per cent of the amount recovered. Belt was paid $80,283.94. Award of Court of Claims of May 18, 1905 and May 28, 1906 in certain consolidated cases. No record of payment to Crawford in these cases. Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians with H. G. Ewart. Date of contract November 10, 1891, compensation 20 per cent of amount realized from the sale which is to be con- ducted by the attorney. Term of contract two years from date thereof. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on May 25, 1898. ; Colville band of Indians with Levi Maish and Hugh H. Gordon, compensation 15 per cent of any amount that may be collected by the attorney for the Indians, Term of contract, 10 years from date of its approval by the Secretary of the Interior; approved by the acting Secretary of the Interior on July 25, 1894, on condition that the attorney fees shall be limited to 10 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians. Accepted by the attorney. : : ‘ Blackfeet, Blood, and Piegan Tribes of Indians, with Frank C. Armstrong. Term of contract, three years from date thereof. Compensation, $2,500 per annum. Date, 2462 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. September 23, 1896. Approved by theSecretary of the Interior on January 2, 1897. Armstrong resigned as attorney February 16, 1897. Armstrong entered into a similar contract with the Crow Indians, which was approved on January 2, 1897. He resigned as attorney February 16, 1897. See contract with Blackfeet, ete., Indians. Crow Tribe of Indians, with Josiah M. Vale. Term of contract, four years from date thereof, May 20, 1897. Sua $2,500 per annum. Approved by the Seere- tary of the Interior on November 17, 1897, for one year from that date. On December 9, 1898, the Secretary of the Interior extended the contract for one year from November 17, 1898. (See Gros Ventre Tribe, p. 7.) Coeur d’Alene Indians, with John Mullan. Date of contract January 7, 1890. Com- pensation, 1 per cent of all moneys received for the Indians through the efforts of the attorney. Contract to continue indefinitely until action shall have been taken on the subject matter thereof. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior June 21, 1890. Paid to attorney in 1891, $6,500. Delaware Indians residing in the Cherokee Nation, with Richard C. Adams, John Bullette, and Walter S. Logan, compensation on ‘first $25,000 dollars recovered on account of any of the claims, 25 per cent; on the second $25,000, 20 per cent; on the next $50,000, 15 per cent; on the next $400,000, 10 per cent; on the balance recovered on account of said claims, 5 per cent. This to be the rate.of compensation on each of the 14 claims against the United States. Contract executed December 23, 1902. Approved. by the Secretary of the Interior December 23, 1902. Term, 10 years from date of its approval. Gros Ventre and Assinniboine Tribe of Indians, with Josiah M. Vale. Date of con- tract, February 3, 1897. Compensation, $2,500 per annum. Term of contract, four years from the date thereof. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 17, 1897, for one year, at the rate of $1,500 a year. Modification accepted by attorney. Secretary of Interior on December 1, 1898, renewed the contract as approved for one year from November 17, 1898. Payments to attorney on this and two other contracts in 1896-1900, $10,522.51. ‘ i Kaw and Kansas Indians, with John Paul Jones and Reece H. Voorhees. Date of contract, January 30, 1890. Term, five years from date thereof. Compensation, 10 per cent of whatever amount of accrued interest that may be collected for the Indians. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 26, 1891. Paid to attorneys in 1891, $2,937.79. Kaw and Kansas Indians with Henry C. Dooley. Date of contract, April 26, 1898. Term, 10 years. Compensation, 10 per cent of whatever amount may be recovered. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 7, 1899, for 10 years from April 26, 1898, on condition that the attorney accept 10 per cent of amount recovered up to $250,000, and 5 per cent on any sum above that amount. Conditional approval accepted De attorney. Kaw or Kansas Indians with Samuel J. Crawford. Date of contract February 10, 1902; compensation, a sum to be designated by the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, not, however, to exceed 10 per cent of the amount the attorney may recover for the tribe. Term, five years from the date thereof. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 15, 1904. Paid to attorney in 1905, $15,597.69. Kaw or Kansas Indians with John Paul Jones and Reece H. Voorhees. Date of con- tract, January 30, 1890; term of contract, five years from date; compensation, 10 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on September 12, 1890. Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache Indians with William C. Shelley. Term of contract, five pee from its date, May 23, 1893; compensation, $5,000 per annum. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on August 10, 1893, on condition that the attorneys accept $3,000 per annum as the compensation. Accepted by the attorney. ey for five years, from May 23, 1893, paid to attorney on various dates at rate of Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache Indians with Charles P. Lincoln. Date of con- tract, April 11, 1898; term, five years from May 24, 1898; compensation, $5,000 per annum; approved by the Secretary of the Interior on June 29, 1898, for one year from date of approval, on a condition that the attorney fee shall be $3,000 per annum. arias accepted by attorney. Salary paid attorney on various dates in 1898 an. 3 Klamath and Modoc Tribes, and Yahooskin Band of Snake Indians with J oseph K. McCammon. Compensation, 12 per cent of whatever sums may be recovered for the ry Indians. Term, eight Malsr e date of contract, July 5, 1893. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on April 25, 1894, on condition that the attorney shall accept as his compensation thereunder a fee of 10 per cent of all sums recovered to WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2463 the Indians to and including $50,000 and 7% per cent on all sums above $50,000 up to and including $100,000, and 5 per cent on all sums above $100,000. Accepted by the attorney. Klamath and Modoc Tribes, and Yahooskin Band of Snake Indians with Joseph K. McCammon. Renews contract of July 5, 1893, for not to exceed eight years. Ap- proved for one year by the Secretary of the Interior on October 26, 1901; compensation to be 10 per cent of all funds recovered to the Indians up to and including $50,000, 7% per cent of all sums above $50,000 up to and including $100,000, and 5 per cent of all sums above $100,000. Accepted by the attorney. A half interest assigned to R. V. Belt. Assingment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior November 21, 1901. McCammon and Belt each paid $15,300.18 in 1906. Lower Pend d’Oreille and Calispel Indians with John Mullan. Term of contract four years from January 6, 1893. Compensation, $1,000 in the event of the ratifica- tion of a certain agreement by Congress, the attorney being employed to look after the interests of the Indians in this case. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on March 2, 1893, on condition that the compensation shall be paid by the Indians direct out a their own funds and not out of any moneys theretofore or thereafter authorized by Congress. Mexican Kickapoo Potawatomie Indians with Isaac Sharp. Date of contract, January 26, 1887; compensation, 25 per cent of whatever sum may be recovered to the Indians. Term, five years from December 23, 1886. opeved: by the Secretary of the Interior on May 12, 1888, on condition that the said fee shall be 10 per cent of the amount that may be recovered by the attorney for the Indians. Mexican Kickapoo Indians with H.C. Linn. Compensation, 25 per cent of whatever sum may be recovered for the Indians. Term of contract five years from date thereof, May 18, 1895. veered by the Secretary of the Interior on February 9, 1897, on condition that the fee shall be 10 per cent of the amount recovered, and no more. Miami Indians of Indiana with James H. Embry. Term of contract three years from date, March 2, 1894, or for five years if case is taken into court, Compensa- tion, 10 per cent of the amount found due the Indians, if principal alone is allowed, and if both principal and interest are allowed, 20 per cent is to be paid. Approved by the department on condition that the fee shall be 10 per cent on the principal, and not to exceed 20 per cent on the interest, ifanyis allowed. Paid attorney under act of March 2, 1895, $4,852.83. Nehalem or Naalem Band of Tillamook tribe of Indians with Archibald Young. Contract dated May 20, 1892; compensation 25 per cent of amount that may be recovered by attorney for the Indians. Term of contract, five years from its date. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior for five years from date thereof on February 1, 1893. Two thousand six hundred and twenty-five dollars paid attorney in 1897. New York Indians with Henry E. Davis, Guion Miller, James B. Jenkins, and George Barker. Dated September 19, 1888, term six years from date thereof; compen- sation, 10 per cent of all amounts secured for the Indians. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 13, 1890. ; New York Indians with George Barker, James B. Jenkins, Henry E. Davis, and Guion Miller. Term of contract six years from its date, July 11, 1898. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on March 9, 1894. Compensation, 5 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians to Davis and Miller, and 5 per cent to Jenkins and Barker. These Indians had previously entered into contracts with Hiram T. Jen- kins, George R. Herrick, Sayles J. Bowen, and John T. Cockran, and George R. Her- rick retained Samuel C. Mills and John Paul Jones to assist him. Agreement was made among the attorneys as to the division of the funds. The entire amount that was allowed the attorneys under the contract was 12} per cent of the amount recovered. By agreement among the attorneys, the amount was divided as follows: Jonas H.. McGowalss-au<'seveieccess os canstoaenh aitie lies Sone geen seceene $18, 682. 61 Pigg le Wty pn oases ch nd os vena neuene kecn athe ania ada 49, 968. 61 Gulion, Miler’ oieion.s caccasine'neweresie no: Sa cin SORES SEER DHE se EaeD sine 47, 632.18 Samuel Go. Mil 8 co.cc cece aic cieisnedid aia eas tieisselsdemeced be 6 8s Sele sRS 5, 000. 00 JOHT: Pal: J ONGS icv ctciccissccccaiw eqs ceesh. 4 easiness eee eae St oe ESSE ES 5, 000. 00 John T. Cochrane, estate of...-....--- 2-202 e eee eee eee eee eee cence eee eee 5, 435. 00 George R. Herrick, estate of. 6, 450. 00 Sayles J. Bowen, estate of......... 3, 450. 00 Hiram T. Jenkins, estate of........--.-----2-+---e2 ee eee 6, 450. 00 James B. Jenkins. 2.2.5. 2.2005 ccens sos cdeeeee a ewes so vivisiniciicinte Seseess 49, 787. 32 George Barker: sccecoo nhac. ce loee «0 ce cceeeeeeeses toe deme ner eseReee > 51, 987. 32 MP otal ocaciiv ni acidds Seneca bea les neces Semen anaes Cas 249, 843. 04 2464 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Secretary of the Interior on March 8, 1900, consented to this agreement among the attorneys. New York Indians with James B. Jenkins and George Barker, supplemental to the contract of September 19, 1888. Term of contract, six years from its date, April 13, 1895. Compensation, 24 per cent of money recovered for the Indians by the attorneys. New Vouk Indians with William B. Matthews and John C. Fay. Compensation, 74 per cent of money secured for the Indians. Term of contract, 10 years from date of its approval by the Secretary of the Interior. Contract executed September 1, 1898, and approved November 28, 1898. . New York Indians with William B. Matthews and John C. Fay. Compensation, 7} per cent of amount secured for the Indians. Term of contract, 10 years from date thereof. Date of contract, September 1, 1898, and approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 28, 1898. Oneida Tribe of Indians with Jonas H. McGowan and B. W. Perkins. Date of con- tract, October 23, 1891. Compensation, 15 per cent of amount recovered by the attorney for the Indians. Term of contract, five years from date of its final execu- tion. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 26, 1898, on condition that the attorney fee shall be limited to 12} per cent of the amount recovered. Perkins assigns his interest to McGowan March 30, 1892. Assignment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior on November 26, 1898. Oneida Indians with Willis J. Spicer. Date of contract, February 2, 1904. Com- pensation, $500 and $100 for en oes for services before the Court of Claims, and if case is appenled to the Supreme Court an additional sum of $500 and $100 for expenses. Approved. by the Secretary of the Interior on February 10, 1904, for five years from date thereof. Accepted by the attorney. Seneca Nation of New York with John Van Voorhis & Sons, consisting of John Van Voorhis, Eugene Van Voorhis, and Charles Van Voorhis. Date of contract, January 26, 1904. Compensation, $2,500 and expenses not to exceed $1,000. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on May 4, 1904, on condition that the attorney’s fee shall be $2,500 for a complete prosecution of the interests of the Indians involved in the suit to a final determination. Seneca Nation of New York with the firm of John Van Voorhis & Sons. Renews contract of January 26, 1904, by which the attorneys agreed to prosecute interests of the Indians to a final determination in the action of the Seneca Nation of Indians against Appleby, the fee for such services not to exceed $2,500. ; Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians with A. H. Garland and Heber J. May. Compensation, $1,500 from whatever sums may be found due the Indians. Date of contract, December 9, 1889; term, 10 years from date thereof. Approved March 24, 1890, by the Secretary of the Interior, on condition that the total amount paid by the Indians shall not exceed 35 per cent of the amount recovered. Attorneys paid $15,000 under act of August 23, 1894. Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians with John Paul Jones, E. C. Boudinot, and Reese H. Voorhees. Date of contract, November 4, 1889. Compensation, 5 per cent of amount recovered. Term of contract, five years from date of execution. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 5, 1890, provided the compen- at Sa not exceed 4 per cent of the amount recovered. Attorneys paid Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians with William W. Wilshire. Date of con- tract, September 28, 1886, to run for five years. Compensation, 5 per cent of whatever amount may be collected for the Indians. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 3, 1887. Thirteen thousand five hundred dollars paid attorney in 1895. Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians with William S. Peabody. Term of con- tract, nine years from December 9, 1882. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on February 1, 1887. Compensation, 8 per cent of the amount collected for the Indians. A three-eighths interest in this contract was assigned to C. Hayden on December 6, 1886; assignment approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on February 1, 1887. Eight thousand dollars paid attorney in 1895. Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians with Joel L. Baugh. Term of contract, five years from date thereof, February 14,1894. Consideration, 14 per cent of whatever sum is finally paid in settlement of claims. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on July 24, 1894, on condition that the compensation to be paid thereunder, together with all other just claims against the Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians on account of the claim referred to therein shall not exceed in the aggregate 35 per cent of the amount recovered. One thousand dollars paid attorney in 1895. Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians, with J. M. Bryan and William 8. Peabody. Term of the contract 12 years from December 9, 1882, approved by the Acting Secretar: of the Interior on March 11, 1892. Compensation 8 per cent of the amount collected. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2465 Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians, with Charles M. Carter. Term of contract five years from its date, February 15, 1893, compensation, $16,324.78, provided, the sum found due the Indians shall be $421,653.68, and attorney fee shall be in proportion if the amount recovered is greater or less. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on March 2, 1893, on condition that the payment may be made for such services only as may be rendered by the attorney thereunder after date thereof; $3,185 paid attorney in 1895. : Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians, with E. John Ellis. Term of contract four om contract dated December 15, 1888, compensation 2 per cent of amount recovered y the attorney for the Indians. Approved by the department March 2, 1893. This contract was assigned on January 5, 1892, by the administrator of the estate of E. John Ellis, to John Johns and D. A. McKnight. Assignment approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on May 31, 1893; $4,000 paid attorneys in 1895. Old Settler or Western Cherokee Indians with John J. Weed. Dated April 17, 1896, compensation 10 per cent of amount secured to the Indians. Term, one year. Ap- proved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 8, 1897, on condition that the fee shall be limited to 6 per cent of the amount secured to the Indians; $2,362.95 paid attorney under act of June 7, 1897. In addition to the sums pad the attorneys named, the following attorneys were paid for services rendered the Old Settler or Western Cherokees, under the act of August 23, 1894: Bryan; Joel Mi ceeeos vvseegcee weve oes taragieebthewsesses sl ssece $52, 025. 11 Wilsons JO) Msi). cco cSseas sean ee wed oaugiecad can Gare NEG AROOR ise 16, 007. 72 Hendrieks, Wim), -Hescec ciate tGiee oo 1.558 Sacpapeieipaeicd eo 2 ae eae 16, 007. 72 Heard; Jona, Ta a2c 8. ccwseiinagiccnd pe case wee imaneatee BP eee kA 10, 000. 00 Newell Vidic octet oat oehheeaaeeced se tds uasagnnanenwer see keae 10, 000. 00 Douglass. J. W eccivniisccoiiwcwiescceane cee adeasuivewkemeawd ses besa cs ~2, 500. 00 Hemingway, Silas! o.scecccteccvesssteicsicl acer telagsiscdaceebes ees se ee 1, 500. 00 Under the act of June 7, 1897, the following amounts were paid: Parker; Stephen. Ws sess. essscisees cee ss peseaeeeedeues Deees eee veut 2, 500. 00 Bi Ws lee eee oes es see ras a eeeednaenate a aya eed4 te 2,500. 00 Peel,, Samuel 'W....... 0/200 s0c. ssees vee ss ceasiteesseoale yes yseeees 2, 500. 00 Peabody, WHS sacs cecesmecahge dees oo Ce eeaitaswecmne eds yee N4 10, 000. 00 McPherson, Theo. H. N........------- 22-2 eee eee eee eee eee 2, 500. 00 Lockwood, -Belwa Aj 2 s-:.nccn'rsiedicisns ¥0l00.4 48 snerabackeresenlee 2222524 500. 00 Garter; C2 Misco cceets tha taeoeasenames Sos tA annideeeer eeaehis 167. 50 Voorhees, Reese H. and John Paul Jones...........--.-...---2+---- 3, 500. 00 Sibbald, John A., estate of.............----- 2-2-2222 eee ee eee eee 1, 000. 00 McCloud, Go Meccuss oe gevnecascesed poe ne ee eeiiddeeen cema ee ee ee seas 2, 500. 00 Erwin, Mareiss.j..+< v +4 saacweateeee eee vss see cepegregesueSs ees eeee's 2, 500. 00 Newall’ occa oss ce we see senate es ae iceiete est fete 2, 000. 00 Bryan, JOC] Mcsaccscioi 2 eels disor se@oe tan £42 REE eee Y Yee es 5, 215. 06: Omaha Tribe of Indians, with John L. Webster, date of contract November 10, 1899, compensation $5,000 for defense of tribe against the claim of 24 persons to be enrolled as members of the tribe and to share in the lands and funds thereof, also to pay necessary printing charges and court costs, but not the traveling and personal ex-: enses of the attorney. Term five years. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior fe 5, 1900. ; Omaha Tribe of Indians, with the firm of Kappler & Merillat, composed of Charles J. Kappler and Charles H. Merillat, and Hiram Chase. Term of contract two years from September 12, 1910, compensation 10 per cent of any money that may be re- covered by reason of this contract with the tribe, two-thirds to the firm, and the remaining one-third to Hiram Chase. Court cost to be borne by the tribe, but all other costs to be paid by the attorneys. Approved March 18, 1911, by the Sec- retary of the Interior, on condition that it shall run for a period of five years from the date thereof, unless claims referred to, and authorized by the Act of June 22, 1910 (36 Stat. L.,» 580) shall have been finally adjudicated prior to the end of five years from the date of contract, in which event, the contract shall be determinated upon the date of such adjudication. The fee to be 10 per cent of the amount of judgment, if any, recovered for the Indians, but not to exceed $25,000 in any event. This contract to be subject to cancellation by the Secreatry of the Interior on giving the parties thereto 60 days’ notice in writing of his intention to do so. Osage Indians with J. L. Bullock. Term of contract three years from May 21, 1894, itsdate. Consideration $3,000 perannum. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on July 18, 1894, on condition that the compensation shall be at the rate of 2466 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. $2,400 per annum. Conditional approval accepted by the attorney. Attorney paid monthly after approval of contract. Osage Indians, with B. W. Perkins. Term of the contract three years, from March 15, 1891, compensation $5,000, approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 25, 1891, on condition that the annual compensation of the attorney shall be $3,000 a year. Accepted by the attorney. Assigned January 1, 1892, to W. W. Martin. ‘Assionment approved by the Secretary of the Interior on March 26, 1892. Perkins paid $2,125, Martin paid for rest of term at $3,000 a year. Osage Indians, with Frank B. Crosthwaite. Date of contract August 16, 1898. Compensation $3,000 per annum. Term three years from date it is approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Approved September 14, 1898. Attorney paid at different dates during term of contract. Osage Indians and John A. Gorman. Term of contract, one year from date thereof, March 15, 1895, compensation $13 a day and actual and necessary traveling expenses. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on December 14, 1896, on condition that the fees shall be $13 a day while the attorney is in the field and $10 a day while in Washington, together with actual and necessary traveling expenses. Accepted by the attorney; $4,768.15 paid attorney in 1896. ’ Osage Indians and John A. Gorman. Date of contract January 10, 1896, term one year from April 1, 1896, compensation $13 a day and necessary and actual traveling expenses. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on December 14, 1896, on con- dition that the fees shall be $13 a day while in the field and $10 a day while in Wash- ington, and actual and necessary traveling expenses. Modification accepted by the attorney. Onize Indians with the firm of Kappler and Merillat, attorneys to represent the Osage Indians in the Court of Claims in the case entitled “Sue M. Rogers, executrjx, of the estate of William P. Adair, and Cullus Mayes as administrator of the estate of Clement N. Vann v. the Osage Nation of Indians.”” Compensation $5,000, payable $1,000 down within 60 days of the signing of the contract, and balance in the event that the claim is defeated in whole, and in case it is defeated in part that the Secretary of the Interior shall pay the attorney such part of $4,000 as in his judgment the services ren- dered are reasonably worth, and in case the claim is allowed against the Osage Nation then the attorneys shall receive no part of the $4,000. The contract was to run from September 6, 1906, until December 31, 1908, and until said claim is brought to a final determination in the courts. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on September 24, 1906. Retainer fee of $1,000 paid in 1906. Bras Indians with Kappler and Merillat. Term of contract two years from April 9, 1908, compensation $5,000 per annum, and any necessary traveling expenses and costs incurred in court or the executive or other department of the Government in the prosecution in the business of the Osage tribe. Approved by the Secretary of the Inte- rior on May 6, 1908, on condition that the attorneys shall attend to all legal matters per- taining to the affairs of the Osage Nation, except its claim against the United States known as “ Civilization fund.” Osage Indians with Kappler and Merillat. Term of contract two years from April 9, 1910, compensation $5,000 per annum, and any necessary traveling expenses incurred on business of the Osage Indians, and any costs that may.be incurred in the executive or other departments of the Government in the prosecution of the business of the tribe. -pprved iy the Secretary of the Interior on May 24, 1910. sage Indians with Kappler & Merillat, composed of Charles J. Kappler and Charles H. Merillat. Term of contract from April 14, 1908, until the question as to use of proceeds arising from the sale of Osage lands in education and civilization of Indians other than Osages shall have been settled. Compensation 10 per cent uf sums recovered from the United States. Approved by the Becrolary of the Interior on May 6, 1908, on condition that it shall be for a term of seven years from the date thereof, compensation 10 per cent of amount recovered up to and including $200,000, 5 per cent of all over $200,000 up to and including $600,000, and 2 per cent of all over $600,000, and on the further condition that the contract may be canceled if the attorneys fail to perform all duties required of them under another agreement with the ‘Osage Indians dated April 11, 1908. Conditional approval accepted by the attorneys. Peoria, Kaskaskia, Wea, and Piankeshaw Indians, with W. W. Martin and O. J. Summers. Date of contract July 23, 1889; compensation $500 and 10 per cent of amount of claim. Term of contract 6 years from date of execution. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 10, 1889. Peoria, Kaskaskia, and Piankeshaw Indians with C.A. Maxwell. Date of contract June 25, 1896; compensation, 20 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians. Con- tract to remain in full force and effect until December 12, 1900. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 8, 1897, on condition that the fee for attorney’s WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9467 services shall be 10 per cent of the amount recovered. Conditional approval accepted. A one-fourth interest in this contract assigned to D. M. Ross. The Secretary of the Interior on October 5, 1897, consented to this assignment. Two thousand five hundred and fifty dollars and fifty cents paid Attorney Maxwell in 1900. Potawatomie Indians of Michigan and Indiana with John Critcher. Date of con- tract, September 29, 1887; term, 4 years from date thereof; compensation, 12 per cent of amount that may be recovered. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on January 13, 1888. Thirty-six thousand five hundred and sixty-three dollars paid attorney in 1895. Judgment court of claims and Supreme Court. Citizen Band of Potawatomie Indians with George 8. Chase. Date of contract, February 11, 1890; compensation, 10 per cent of amount recovered; term of contract, 5 years from date thereof. Approved by the Department December 2, 1890, on condi- tion that the attorney’s fees shall be 24 per cent of the amount recovered, provided that if the department finds this should be an inadequate rate it may be increased by the Department of the Interior. Seven thousand three hundred dollars and nine-two cents paid attorney in 1891. ‘ Citizen Band of Pottawatomie Indians, with J. H. McGowan. Date of contract January 20, 1891; term, five years from October 23, 1889; compensation, 10 per cent of amount recovered. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on March 18, 1891, on condition that the attorney fee shall be 5 per cent of the amount recovered instead of 10. $4,138.91 paid attorney in 1891. Citizen Band of Pottawatomie Indians, with J. E. Clardy; term of contract, 3 years; contract dated June 24, 1891; consideration, 10 per cent of amounts recovered on claims. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 9, 1892. Prairie Band of Pottawatomie Indians, with A. F. Navarre. Compensation, 10 per cent of all amounts recovered by the attorney for the Indians.. Term, 5 years from date of contract, July 26, 1890. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior September 2, 1892. $4,651.28 paid attorney in 1892. Prairie Band of Pottawatomie Indians, with Walter H. Smith. Term of contract, 5 years from date thereof, March 24, 1892. Compensation, $3,000 and the additional sum of $1,000 if the attorney shall take testimony of the witnesses in Kansas in said cause, and the further sum of $500 with which the attorney shall pay the expenses of a representative of said Prairie Band in Washington for a period not to exceed 3 months, and the further sum of 6 per cent of any sum that may be recovered in said cause. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on April 7, 1892, except as to the ayment of 6 per cent of any sum that may be recovered, which was disapproved. odification accepted by attorney. $2,500 paid attorney in 1894. Wa qua bo shuck band of Pottawatomie Indians, with D. C. Tillotson, compensation 5 per cent of the selling price of lands in Kansas belonging to members of this band. The attorney to have power to agree that the proceeds shall be invested in other homes for them, the title thereto being either in the United States, or in the parties, as the Secretary of the Interior may elect. Agreement,dated March 1910, to run from September 7, 1909. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on June 1, 1910. No length of term is stated in the contract. Puyallup Band or Tribe of Indians with Charles Bedford. Compensation 50 per cent of money that may be recovered to the tribe in pursuance of this agreement. Term of contract, 7 years from the date thereof, April 29, 1907; but provided that if litigation brought within this time shall not be terminated within that time, the contract shall be considered as extended until the final determination of such litiga- tion. Approved February 3, 1908, by the Sectetary of the Interior, on condition that the attorney shall accept for his services 25 per cent of the proceeds from all com- promises and sale of all lands recovered by virtue of his employment under the con- tract, one-half the compensation to be paid as soon as there shall be funds available from any compromise or sale, and the balance to be paid on the termination of all suits or their discontinuance by agreement between the attorney herein named, or his attorney in fact, and the Department of the Interior. Such compensation to be in any case, however, not to exceed $30,000, and no compromise to be official an effective until approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Conditional approval accepted by the attorney. ‘ Quapaw ‘Nation of Indians, with W. W. Martin. Date of contract, January 29, 1890; compensation, 12 per cent of all money recovered by the attorney for the Indians, and 10 per cent upon sales of surplus lands; when sales shall exceed the rate of $1.25 per acre, 10 per cent of excess only. Term of contract, 5 years from date thereof, Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on March 23, 1892, for 7 per cent of the amount secured to the Indians under the contract, except that nothing shall be paid for his services on account of the sale of the surplus land of the Indians. 2468 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Sac and Fox Indians of Mississippi, residing in Indian Territory, with E. John Ellis, John Johns, and D. A. McKnight; compensation, 10 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians. Term 5 years from date thereof, January 21, 1888; approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 20, 1889. : Sac and Fox Indians of Mississippi, with Josiah M. Vale and James W. Willett. Date of contract, July 13, 1893; compensation, 20 per cent of all moneys that may be secured to the Indians by the efforts of the attorneys. Given a term of 5 years from the date thereof. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior, on Septem- ber 12, 1893, on condition that the attorney shall accept 10 per cent of all moneys secured to the Indians under the contract. Modification accepted by the attorneys. $4,289.32 paid attorneys in 1896. . Sac and Fox Indians of the Missouri tribe of Kansas and Nebraska, with John L. Webster and James Falloon. Terms of contract, 3 years from November 5, 1894; compensation, $3,000 to Webster, and $1,500 additional if case is appealed, and $2,500 to Falloon. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on December 14, 1894. In 1897 Webster was paid $3,000 and Falloon, $2,500. Sac and Fox Indians of Oklahoma, with McGowan, Serven & Mohun, composed of Jones H. McGowan, Abram R. Serven, and Barry Mohun. Contract.runs from August 13, 1906, to March 5, 1907; compensation at the rate of $5,000 per annum, and all necessary traveling and incidental expenses connected with this employment. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on September 1, 1906. Attorneys paid $2,968.12 in 1906 and 1907. Sac and Fox Indians of Oklahoma, with the firm of McGowan, Serven; and Mohun. Term of contract five years from March 6, 1907, unless suit shall have been finally adju- dicated prior to five years from that date. Contract to be subject to cancellation by the Secretary of the Interior on 30 days’ notice of his intention to do so. Com- pensation, $5,000 per annum and actual and necessary traveling expenses con- nected with this employment, and of all disbursements for necessary printing. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on April 25, 1907. Seneca Indians of Indian Territory, with G. W. Stidham and W. C. Langan. Date of contract, July 10, 1886. Term of contract, five years from date thereof. Compensa- tion, 15 per cent of all money that may be recovered to the Indians by the attorney. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on December 4, 1886. Seneca Nation of Indians, with James C. Strong. Extends original contract made March 16, 1883, to January 1, 1900. Compensation, 10 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians and necessary expenses of the attorneys. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 24, 1896. Shawnee Indians, with George S. Chase. Date of contract, March 1, 1900. Term of contract, five years from date thereof. Compensation, 10 per cent of amount secured for the Indians. Approved April 9, 1900, by the Secretary of the Interior. Shawnee Indians, with James S. Denver and Charles Brownell. Compensation, 25 per cent of all amounts recovered for the Indians; term of the contract, four years from December 18, 1888. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on June 25, 1889, on condition that the attorney fee shall be 10 per cent instead of 25. Shawnee Indians, with George S. Chase. Date of contract, March 1, 1900; compensa- tion, 10 per cent of all money that may be secured to the Indians by the attorney. Term, five years from date of contract. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on April 9, 1890, for not to exceed 5 per cent GF amontite as fees. Sioux Indians of Pine Ridge, with Thomas H. Anderson, Robert E. Doan, and Joseph W. O’Neall, doing business under the firm name of Anderson, Doan, and O’Neall. Tecm of contract, five years from July 22,1893. It provides fora payment of 20 per cent of such money as may be collected for the Indians. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on August 16, 1894. Sioux Indians of Crow Creek, with W. W. Anderson. Term of contract 10 years from the date thereof, January 12, 1894, compensation 10 per cent of the claim which amounts to $187,039. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior January 16, 1895, for five years from January 17, 1894, the amount of the fee to be subject to future determination on a showing of the services actually rendered, in any event not to exceed 10 per cent. Yankton Band of Sioux Indians, with F. M. Goodykoontz. Term of contract, three years from date thereof, August 19, 1892. Compensation, $1,000 per annum. Ap- proved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on September 13, 1892, on condition that the compensation to be paid thereunder, taken together with all other sums to be paid in any contract with the Sioux bands and Northern Cheyennes, shall not exceed in the aggregate the sum total of $4,000 per annum. See contract with Santee. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2469 ‘ Sioux Indians of Crow Creek, with F. M. Goodykoontz. Term of contract, three years from date-thereof, July 18, 1892; compensation, $600 per annum. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on August 11, 1892, on condition that the compensa- tion to be paid thereunder, together with all other sums to be paid under any contract with the Sioux Bands and the Northern Cheyennes shall not exceed in the aggregate the sum total of $4,000. See contract with Santee. Santee Band of Sioux Indians, with F. M. Goodykoontz. Term of contract, three years from its date, March 11, 1892; compensation, $1,000 a year. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on August 5, 1892, on condition that the compensation to be paid thereunder, taken together with all other sums to be paid under any contract with the Sioux Bands and Northern Cheyennes shall not exceed in the aggregate $4,000 per annum. Attorney paid monthly for services to 3 bands of Sioux. Santee Band of Sioux Indians, with Charles Hill, and Charles A. Eastman. Date of contract, November 27, 1896; compensation, 10 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians; terms, 10 years from the date of the contract. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on July 1, 1897, on condition that the attorney fee shall be 10 per cent of the amount recovered, up to $250,000, and 5 per cent on any sum above that amount. Accepted by the attorneys. Charles A. Eastman assigns his half interest in this contract to John Eastman. Assignment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior on March 21, 1901. Charles Hill and John Eastman assign their interest in this contract to Edward C. and Arthur Peter. Assignment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior on February 17, 1902. Rosebud Sioux Indians, with John H. King. Date of contract, July 26, 1898; com- pensation, $1,000 per annum for four years. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on January 19, 1899, from date of approval. Accepted by the attorney. Devils Lake Sioux Indians, with Charles A. Maxwell. Date of contract, July 22, 1895; compensation, 124 per cent of amount recovered for the Indians; term, 10 years from date of contract. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 11, 1897, on condition that the fee shall be 10 per cent of the amount recovered. Accepted by the attorneys. One-half interest in ee contract assigned by Maxwell to Lyman J. Dunning. Assignment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior on April 18, 1898. Done assigns his interest in this contract to Charles E. Flandrau. Assign- ment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior on April 23, 1898. Sisseton and Wahpeton Sioux Indians with Charles A. Maxwell. Date of contract July 22, 1895, compensation 12} per cent of the amount secured for the Indians under the contract. Term 10 years from date of contract. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on February 11, 1897, on condition that the fee be 10 per cent of the amount secured for the Indians. One-half interest in this contract assigned to Lyman F. Dunning. Assignment consented to by the Secretary of the Interior April 18, 1898. Dunning assigns his half interest to Charles E. Flandrau. Assignment con- sented to by the Secretary of the Interior on April 23, 1898. Upper and Middle Bands of Spokane Indians with John Mullan. Date of contract February 19, 1892, compensation 3 per cent of all money received for the Indians in the event that Congress ratifies the agreement with them. Term of contract 4 years from February 19, 1892. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on June 23, 1892. $2,850 paid attorney in 1892. . Members of Stockbridge and Munsee Tribes of Indians with J.C. Adams. Term of contract 10 years from December 29, 1893, compensation 20 per cent of such sums as may be secured to the members collectively or individually. Approved by the acting Secretary of the Interior on May 24, 1894, for 20 per cent. : Stockbridge and Munsee Indians with Jonas H. McGowan, and B. W. Perkins. Compensation 15 per cent of amount recovered by the attorneys for the Indians, term of contract five years from date of final execution. Date of contract October 19, 1891. The Secretary of the Interior on November 26, 1898, approved the contract on condition that the attorney fees shall be 123 per cent of the amount recovered, and no more. Perkins assigns his interest to McGowan on March 30, 1892. Assignment con- sented to by the Secretary of the Interior at the time of the approval of the contract. Ute Tribe of Indians with Kie Oldham. Date of contract February 21, 1897, term five years from date of approval by the Secretary of the Interior. Compensation $4,000 per annum, and actual and necessary traveling expenses, and expense of printing, not to exceed $500 per year. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on May 5, 1897, for one year only. Accepted for one year from May 5, 1897. Ex- tended one year on April 23, 1898, from May 5, 1898, by the Secretary of the Interior. On April 20; 1899, the acting Secretary of the Interior extended the term for one year from May 5, 1899. The Secretary of the Interior on April 5, 1900, extended the contract for one year from May 5, 1900. Salary and expenses paid at various times during term of contract. 2470 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Ute Indians with Kie Oldham. Date of contract April 26, 1902, term two years from May 4, 1902, unless suit against Indians shall have been finally disposed of before’ that time. Compensation $4,000 per annum, and necessary expenses not to exceed $500 per annum. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on May 19, 1902, on condition that the Secretary shall have the right after eleven months, on 30 days’. notice of his intention so to do, to terminate this contract and to reduce the rate of compensation. Accepted by the attorney. Department terminated the contract on June 15, 1903, and later extended the contract for a period of three months from June- 15, 1903, at a compensation of $2,000 dollars perannum. Salary and expenses paid at various times during term of contract. Western Miami Indians with James H. Embry. Term of contract three years from execution and approval. Contract dated March 6, 1890, approved by the Secretary of the Interior March 24, 1890, Compensation 25 per cent of whatever amount may be secured for the Indians by the attorneys. Approved by the department on condition. . . that the compensation shall be fixed at 20 Ee cent of the amount recovered. Hight thousand five hundred and thirty-five dollars and sixty-five cents paid attorney in. 1891. Western Miami Tribe of Indians with Thomas F. Richardsville. Contract dated November 6, 1896, compensation 10 per cent of,all amounts that may be recovered for the tribe, and $10 for each share or allotment of lands in severalty that the attorney - secures. Term of the contract six years from date thereof. Approved by the Acting Secretary of the Interior on June 10, 1899, so far as to authorize the attorney to prose- cute the claims of the Indians for interest on the principal sums paid to them under the Act of March 3, 1891 (26 Stat. L., 1000). Western Miami Indians with George H. Lamar. Date of contract July 9, 1902, compensation seven per cent of the gross proceeds of sales of surplus and unallotted lands belonging to the Indians. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on April 20, 1903, on condition that the attorney shall be paid as his fee five per cent of three- fifths of the gross amount received from the sale of the land, the share of the proceeds to which the Western Miami Indians are entitled. No length of term stated. Wichita and Affiliated Bands of Indians, with Josiah M. Vale, George D. Day, Andrew A. Lipscomb, and Dennis W. Bushyhead. Date of contract May 1, 1895. Term 10 years from the signing thereof by the attorneys, May 1, 1895, compensation six per cent of the money secured by reason of the employing of the attorneys. Ap- proved by the Secretary of the Interior on July 1, 1895. George D. Day assigns his interest to Josiah M. Vale. Assignment approved by the Secretary of the Interior. on July 1, 1895. One-third of the compensation to be received by Vale assigned to William C. Shelley for services to be rendered in connection with the contract. Ap- proved by the Secretary of the Interior on July 1,1895. Andrew A. Lipscomb assigns one-tenth of his interest in this contract to Philip Walker, in consideration of services to be rendered to Lipscomb by Walker-in the preparation of the case for trial and the trial thereof. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on July 1, 1895. Dennis W. Bushyhead assigns all his interest in this contract to Andrew A. Lipscomb. Assign- ment approved by the Secretary of the Interior on May 15, 1896. Techn assigns one-tenth of his interest to Philip Walker. This assignment approved by the Secre- tary of the Interior on May 15, 1896. Andrew A. Lipscomb assigns the remaining nine-tenths interest in this contract to George P. Montague and Russell W. Montague. nee approved by the Secretary of the Interior on March 18, 1901. ichita and Affiliated Bands of Indians, with Josiah M. Vale. Date of contract April 4, 1898; term of contract, five years from date of its execution. Compensation, $1,200 per. annum, and the further compensation of 10 per cent of any money secured to the Indians by the attorney as a result of this contract. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on September 2, 1898, for one year, the entire compensation of the attor- ney to be $1,200. Accepted by the attorney. Yanktonnais and Assinniboine Tribes of Indians, with Josiah M. Vale. Date of contract, July 18, 1895; term of contract, four years from date thereof; compensation, $2,500 per annum. Approved by the Secretary of the Interior on November 17, 1897, for one year from date of approval, on condition that the attorney shall be paid for his services at the rate of $1,500 per annum. Accepted by the attorney. Contract extended by the Secretary of the Interior on December 9, 1898, for one year from November 17, 1898. See contract with Gros Ventre Indians, page 7. - The amounts paid, as given herein, were taken from a record in the Office of the Auditor of the Treasury for the Interior Department of amounts paid to attorneys for Indians. This record did not show the amount secured to the Indians through efforts of the attorneys. : : Mr. VaLentine. In addition, sir, I have in my hand a paper of what might be called live contracts, those operative to-day with the WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9471 Cherokees, the Creeks, the Chickasaws, the Choctaws, the Osages, the Omahas, the Seminoles—there is not a contract under the head of Seminoles, there is a little memorandum of information here on a legal matter—and last, the Yankton Indians. This paper is supple- mentary, and completes the showing made in the previous documents. Mr. Burcu. Is it not true, Mr. Valentine, that the Mille Lac matter is still going on in the Court of Claims ? Mr. Meritt. It is decided, but on motion for new trial. Mr. VALENTINE. Then that would appear in the other list. Mr. Grorce. That is, in the list previous to this? Mr. Burcu. Would it, Mr. Meritt? ae Meritt. Those papers have just been completed in the Indian office. Mr. Burcu. He has not had time to inspect them, but we will put them in there. J assume that it is there and if it is not in there you will look it up and let us know. The memorandum is as follows: Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: Luman F. Parker, jr., Vinita, Okla. Date of contract: February 22, 1904. Date of approval: March 29, 1904, by the Secretary of the Interior. Period of time covered: To continue until tribal relations of the Cherokee Nation are dissolved or until March 4, 1906. (L. F. Parker, jr., resigned to be appointed judge, succeeded by William W. Hastings.) Contract expired by limitation: March 4, 1906. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $3,500 per annum, payable monthly, personal and traveling expenses while attending to duties outside of Indian Territory in a sum not to exceed $500 per annum. Work performed: Report.annually to principal chief-on or before October 20 each year statement of services rendered. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 5, pages 303, 304, and 305, Indian Office Records. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: William W. Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. Date of contract: January 2, 1906. Date of approval: January 27, 1906, by the Secretary of the Interior. : Period of time covéred: Employment shall continue until tribal relations of the Cherokee Nation shall be dissolved and until March 4, 1906. - Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. i Consideration: $3,500 per annum payable monthly, personal and traveling expenses while attending to duties outside of Indian Territory. Work performed: Report fully to principal chief on or before October 20 each year, services rendered. . Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 5, pages 441-442 and 443, Indian Office Records. as Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: William W.,Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. ‘ Date of contract: April 4, 1906. : 2 Date of approval: May 21, 1906, by the President. Period of time covered: March 1, 1906, until June 30, 1907. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. ? : ; Consideration: $5,000 per annum, payable monthly, personal and traveling expenses, and expenses of special stenographer where required outside of Indian Territory. Work performed: Report fully to principal chief on or before October 20 each year, services rendered. ; ‘ ; Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 5, pages 451, 452, 453, Indian OHice Records.. 2472 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: James 8. Davenport, Vinita, Okla. Date of contract: January 21, 1907. Date of approval: March 29, 1907. Period of time covered: January 21, 1907, to March 4, 1907. Contract expires by limitation: March 4, 1907. Annulment clause: None. : ; Character of employment: To specially represent the Cherokee tribe at Washington, D. C.; to prevent inimical legislation by Congress; W. W. Hastings, regular tribal attorney, being too busily engaged in citizenship cases at Muskogee, Okla., to attend. Consideration: $500 payable March 4, 1907, his personal and traveling expenses, and expenses of special stenographer where the same is required in Washington, D. C. Work performed: Not known—no report required. “ Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 7, 8, and 9, Indian Office Records. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: William W. Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. Date of contract: March 13, 1907. Date of approval: March 29, 1907. : : Period of time covered: March 5, 1907, to March 4, 1908, inclusive. Contract expired by limitation: March 4, 1908. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General attorney. Consideration: $3,500 per annum, payable monthly, and personal and traveling expenses, and expenses of special stenographer where required outside of Indian Territory. Work "pertarmed; Annual report required to be made to principal chief on or before October 20, each year, of services rendered. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 1, 2, 3, Indian Office Records. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: William W. Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. Date of contract: January 4, 1908. Date of approval: February 3, 1908. Period of time covered: March 5, 1908, to March 4, 1909. Contract expired by limitation: March 3, 1909. Annulment clause: May be terminated at any time at the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $3,500 per annum, payable monthly, personal and_ traveling expenses, and expenses of a special stenographer where required outside of the State of Oklahoma. ‘Work performed: Annual report required to be made to principal chief on or before October 20, each year. 7 Beced: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 51-2-8 and 54, Indian Office ecords. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: William W. Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. Date of contract: January 2, 1909. Date of approval: February 27, 1909. Period of time covered: March 5, 1909, to March 4, 1910. Contract expired by limitation: March 4, 1910. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum, payable monthly; personal and traveling expenses and expenses of special stenographer where required outside of the State of Oklahoma. Work performed: Annual report required to be made to principal chief on or before Octéber 20 each year of service rendered. oo Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 175 and 176, Indian Office ecords. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. ; Counsel: William W. Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. Date of contract: January 6, 1910. Date of approval: February 25, 1910. Period of time covered: March 5, 1910, to June 30, 1911. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9473 Contract expired by limitation: June 29, 1911. Annulment clause: -None. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum, payable monthly; personal and traveling expenses and expenses of special stenographer where required outside of the State of Ohlahoma. Work performed: Annual report required to be made to principal chief on or before October 20 each year of services rendered. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 219-220 and 221, Indian Office Records. zs Nation of Indians: Creek. Counsel: Arthur P. Murphy, Crocker, Mo. Date of contract: January 10, 1903. Date of approval: January 13, 1903, by the Secretary of the Interior. Period of time covered: Employment shall continue until tribal relation of the Muskogee Nation shall be dissolved and until March 1, 1906. Contract expired by limitation: March 1, 1906. Annulment clause: Cancellation by either party thereof upon 30 days’ notice for good cause shown. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum, paid quarterly, and necessary expenses when absent from the Muskogee Nation. Work performed: Report annually through principal chief to the National Council of services rendered, giving the number of cases tried and the result of each case. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 5, pages 182, 183, 184, and 185, Indian Office Records. Pleasant Porter, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation dismissed Arthur Murphy as attorney for the Nation and appointed M. L. Mott, Esq., as his successor. This brought on a lawsuit which resulted in the lower court in favor of Mr. Murphy, but upon appeal to the Eighth Circuit Court of the United States, the court eencered a decision adverse to Murphy and held that he was regularly dismissed, yet by an act of Congress, approved April 4, 1910, Mr. Murphy was reimbursed for the moneys ost by that decision, which was $4,320.08. (See 36 Stat. L., 269-282). Nation of Indians: Creek. Counsel: M. L. Mott, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: February 23, 1907. Date of approval: March 28, 1907. Period of time covered: March 5, 1907, to March 4, 1908. Contract expires by limitation: March 4, 1908. Annulment clause: Subject to cancellation by either party hereto upon 30 days’ notice for good cause shown, to be determined by the Secretary of the Interior. Character of employment: General attorney. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and all necessary expenses when absent from Muskogee Nation, in the peformance of duties under this contract. _. Work performed: Report to the National Council annually through the principal chief a statement of services rendered, the kind and number of cases tried, and the result of each case. Recorded: In miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 3, 4, 5, and 6. Indian Office record. Nation of Indians: Creek. Counsel: M. L. Mott, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: January 18, 1908. Date of approval: January 24, 1908. Period of time covered: March 4, 1908, for three years. Contract expires by limitation: March 4, 1911. : Annulment clause: For three years from March 4, 1908, subject,"however, to termi- nation after that period at the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. Character of employment: General attorney. Consideration: $5,000 and all necessary expenses when absent from the Muskogee Nation in the performance of duties under this contract. — oy: : Work performed: Report annually to National Council through principal chief a statement of services rendered, the kind and number of cases tried, and the result of each case. Recorded: In miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 48, 49, 50. Indian Office record. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——61 9474 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Nation of Indians: Creek. . : Counsel for Creek Nation: W. L. Sturdevant, of 826 Central National Bank Build- ing, St. Louis, Mo. : Date oi employment: December 30, 1908, the President approved an act of Creek Council of October 30, 1908, appropriating $5,000 to be paid W. L. Sturdevant, of St. Louis, Mo., to aid M. L. Mott in prosecuting the Marchie Tiger case on appeal from a decision of the Supreme Court of Gita of June 29, 1908, to United States Supreme Court, which rendered on May 15, 1911, a favorable decision for the Indians. Period of time covered: June 29, 1908, to May 15, 1911. : : Character of employment: To aid M. L. Mott, Creek national attorney, in perfecting and arguing appeal to the United States Supreme Court from a decision of the Okla- homa Supreme Court of June 29, 1908. . ? Consideration (no formal contract drawn or recorded in Indian Office): $5,000. Nation of Indians: Creek. Counsel: Merritt Eslick, Muskogee, Okla. Date of employment: December 8, 1906, by telegram of M. L. Mott, upon oral authority of Secretary of the Interior, under section 18 of act of April 26, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 137, 144). Period of time covered by employment: December 8, 1906, to October 31, 1909, when discontinued and dropped. Character of employment: To assist in bringing suits to recover Creek town lots. Consideration: $3,000 per annum. Work performed: Did most of the office work preparing cases for court. W. L. Sturdevant and Grant Foreman appear with M. L. Mott on the brief in the case No. 559, in the Supreme Court of the United States, entitled Bessie Brown English, plaintiff in error, v. H. T. Richardson, county treasurer of Tulsa County, defendant in error, to resist taxation of Creek homesteads. Under what authority or contract they appear is not known to the Indian Office. Nation of Indians: Creek. Counsel: M. L. Mott, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: February 23, 1907. Date of approval: March 28, 1907. Period of time covered: March 5, 1907, to March 4, 1907. Contract expires by limitation: March 4, 1908. Annulment clause: Subject to cancellation by either party hereto upon 30 days’ notice, for good cause shown, to be determined by the Secretary of the Interior. Character of employment: General attorney. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and all necessary expenses when absent from Muskogee Nation in the performance of duties under this contract. Work performed: Report to the National Council annually through the principal chief a statement of services rendered, the kind and number of cases tried, and the result of each case. Recorded: In miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 3, 4, 5, and 6. Indian Office record. Nation of Indians: Choctaw. Counsel: Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, McAlester, Okla. Date of contract: October 18, 1899. Date of approval: Act of Choctaw Council, No. 7, authorizing principal chief to poploy an attorney for the Choctaw Nation in citizenship matters, January 10, 1900, by President McKinley. Period of time covered: November 23, 1899, until citizenship rolls of Choctaw Nation are completed. ye expired by limitation: On completion of citizenship roll of Choctaw ation. Annulment clause: Unless said attorneys shall sooner be dismissed for cause. Character of employment: In citizenship cases. Consideration: Five thousand dollars per year, payable quarterly. rs performed: Full report of the action of the general council of the Choctaw ation. Addendum: Bill No. 7, Choctaw National Council, authorizing principal chief to employ attorney for the Choctaw Nation in citizenship cases was approved by the peceral chief of the Choctaw Nation on October 19, 1899, and by President Willaim cKinley January 10, 1900. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2475 Nation of Indians: Choctaw. Counsel: McCurtain & Hill, McAlester, Okla. Date of contract: August 31, 1907. Date of approval: October 26, 1907. Period of time covered: Five years, October 1, 1907, to September 30, 1912. Contract expires by limitation: September 30, 1912. : Annulment clause: Subject to termination during that period at the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. Character of employment: General. Consideration: Five thousand dollars per annum, payable monthly, personal and traveling expenses and personal and traveling expenses of a clerk to be employed by them at a salary not to exceed $75 per month ‘while away from McAlester, Ind. Ter. The salary of McCurtain & Hill was raised from $5,000 to $8,000 per year by an act of the Choctaw Council on October 14, 1908, approved by the President on November 30, 1908, since which date they have received $8,000 per annum. Work performed: Annual report required to be made to the principal chief on or before October 20, each year of services rendered, and a like report to the Secretary of the Interior. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, pages 28, 29, 30, and 31, Indian Office records. Addendum: Messrs. McCurtain & Hill claimed a fee of $5,000 additional for services rendered in the case of J. E. Fleming et al. v. Green McCurtain et al., in argument before the Supreme Court of the United States. Green McCurtain, principal chief of the Choctaw Nation, in a letter dated Decem- ber 20, 1909, recommended that McCurtain & Hill be paid a fee of $5,000 for extra services in the Fleming case, and the Acting Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, in his letter of January 15, 1910, recommended the payment of a fee of $3,000 to that firm while the Indian Office, in a letter of March 18, 1910, held that their services in the Fleming case were within the purview of their general contract as attorneys for the Choctaw Nation, and held that said firm were not entitled to any additional fee for services rendered in said case, which was approved by the depart- ment on April 7, 1910. as recommended. Mr. D. C. McCurtain, of the firm of McCurtain & Hill, has devoted his time largely to the assistance of district agents in probate matters in the Choctaw Nation. Nation of Indians: Chickasaw. Counsel: Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, McAlester, Okla. Date of contract: July 20, 1899. Date of approval: January 10, 1900, by the President. Period of time covered: Two years from date thereof. Contract expired by limitation: July 20, 1901. - Annulment clause: Subject to be annuled by the legislature of the Chickasaw Nation after two years of the date thereof. ~ Character of employment: General in citizenship matters. Consideration: Five thousand dollars per annum and personal expenses. clerical help and other item not to exceed $2,700. Addendum: The above contract was authorized by H. R. bill No. 46 of the Chick- asaw Nation by an act approving the contract to Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish for legal services and making an appropriation therefor. Nationof Indians: Chickasaw. Counsel: Rodgers & Clapp, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: February 21, 1910. Date of approval: April 21, 1910. Period of time covered: One year. Contract expired by limitation: April 21, 1911. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. : Consideration: $5,000 per year. No allowance made for personal and traveling expenses incurred outside of the State of Oklahoma unless previously authorized by the Secretary of the Interior. Expenses within the State of Oklahoma to be confined to travel absolutely necessary to be incurred in carrying out the terms of the contract. Work performed: Report to be made immediately succeeding the Ist day of July each year to principal chief and like report whenever called upon therefor by the Secretary of the Interior. . Recorded: Miscellaneousrecord book, volume 6, pages 223, 224, Indian Office Records. 2476 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Nation of Indians: Chickasaw. Counsel: Rodgers & Clapp, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: February 17, 1911. Date of approval: April 26, 1911. Period of time covered: One year from and after February 21, 1911. Contract expired by limitation: February 21, 1912. 4 : « Annulment clause: Employment shall immediately terminate in the event that the Chickasaw tribal council is abolished by Congress before the expiration of the term of this contract. Character of employmént: General. Consideration: $5,000 per poh eye monthly. Reasonable and proper expenses; fees to procure official records and documents and the personal and traveling expenses incurred when called by employment out of the city of Muskogee, Okla. _ Work performed: Report fully to the Government of the Chickasaw Nation and the Secretary of the Interior on or before July 1, each year, and when called upon by the Secretary of the Interior. . Recorded: Miscellaneousrecord book, volume 6, pages 251-252 and 253, Indian Office Records. The following is a statement showing the amounts paid to attorneys for the Five Civilized Tribes on contracts: Attorney. Amount. Tribe. : Remarks. ‘Award of Court of Claims. Judg- Lockwood, Mrs Belva A..... $18, 000. 00 i| ments rendered May 18, 1905 and Vaille, John.........-. -| 144,511. 09 May 28, 1906. Award of Court of Belt, Robert J 80, 283. 94 Claims in consolidated cases, the Searritt & Cox 96, 340. 72 Cherokee Nation v. the. United James K. Jones.... 48,170. 36 States, No. 23199; the Eastern Matthew FE. Butler.. 72, 255. 54 Cherokees v. the United States William H. Robeson -.-| 72,255. 54 No. 23214, and the Eastern and Robert L. Owen..........-..- 208, 738. 23 Immigrant Cherokees v. the United States, No. 23212. Finkelnberg, Nagel & Kirby, | 149,324. 80 and Edgar Sniith. . Mansfield, McMurray & Cor- | 750,000.00 | Choctaw and Chicka- nish. saw Nations. “YVON, Pik@y.35- 2 je.0 ssa eeeencs 60,000.00 | Choctaw........-....- Act of Mar. 3, 1901 (31 Stat. L., 1078). Mrs, Lillian Pike Roome..... 15,000. 00 |..... do.................| For services of Albert Pike. Douglass H. Johnson......... (1) Choctaw Nation.......| Delegate. M. L. Mott........ ---; 1,500.00 | Creek Nation..........| Act of Apr. 4, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 269). c. W. Turner.... -| 1,000.00 }..... do.............-...| Act of June 21,1906 (34 Stat. L., 344). W. L. Sturdevant. 5,790.99 |..... OO sceses sy sessile se Act of Apr. 26, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 144). Latham, Thomas B. 1,650.00 | Choctaw Nation....... J_H. Sypher.... 5,000. 00 |... .. do............-....| Act of Mar. 3, 1905. Hemphill, John J.. -| 3,750.00 | Cherokee............-. Act of June 28, 1898, Springer, Reuter W. -! 3,633.00 | Cherokee Nation... ... Act of Apr. 21, 1904 (33 Stat. L., 210). emphill, John J...-......... 22, 249.96 |..... CO c2s0: ss eiaraeen Court of Claims, Case No. 76, involv- ' ing enrollment of persons claiming rights in'the Cherokee Nation ‘by InPerDnSeTtaees 3 ji 0. Murchison, Kenneth § 9,708.60 |..... OG semyais eareteic en fe bes Sturdevant, Williard L 10, 188.53 | Creek Nation.......... Thomas & Foreman 1, 550. 00 d Mott,.M.L. 4,103.17 Murphy, A. 4,320. 08 Act of Congress of Apr. 4, 1910. 1 $3,000 per annum from Sept. 1, 1906 to Mar. 1, 1910. Nation of Indians: Chickasaw and Choctaw. Counsel: Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, McAllister, Okla. Date of contract: January 17, 1901. D te of modified approval: February 20, 1903, reducing compensation from 9 per cent to 5 per cent, total amount not to exceed $250,000 because the fee at 9 per cent would be excessive, which modification attorneys refused to accept. Period of time covered: Five years from March 4, 1901. Contract expired by limitation: March 4, 1901. Annulment clause: Character of employment: To effect an allotment of other tracts of tribal property to those persons who claim right thereto under alleged judgments of the United States court in Indian Territory rendered under the act of Congress approved June 10, 1896, and known as ‘‘ Consideration: 9 per cent modified to 5 per cent. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2477 Work performed: Declined to accept modification of contract and procured legis- lation oe Chickasaw and Choctaw citizenship court. The act of March 3, 1903 (32 Stat. L., 982-995), provided that upon final determination of said citizenship court of the case within its jurisdiction, said court may fix reasonable compensation to the attorneys employed by the contract dated January 17, 1901, with the Chickasaw and Choctaw Nations, such determination shall be made irrespective of the rate fixed in said contract between said attorneys and said nations or any of them unless the same shall have received the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. The Chicka- saw and Chockaw citizenship court, in its opinion signed by the entire court, Spencer B. Adams, chief judge; Walter L. Weaver, associate judge; and Henry 8. Foote, associate judge. in its December term, 1904, fixed the sum of 5750,000 as reasonable compensation, and should be allowed the firm of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish for services in connection with citizenship matters under the contract dated January 17, 1901, and in lieu of all expenses paid to accept such as provided for by law as set out in section 33 of the act of Congress approved September 1, 1902, and the said amount is hereby fixed and allowed as reasonable compensation to said attorneys in this behalf. The said amount was paid in full to said attorneys from Chickasaw and Choc- taw tribal funds in the United States Treasury. For fuller information in detail as to the Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish contract, see copies of papers furnished the Hon. Charles H. Burke, chairman House of Repre- sentatives Committee on Indian Affairs with departmental létter of July 25, 1910. Nation of Indians: Chickasaw. Counsel: Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, McAlester, Okla. Date of contract: October 16, 1902. Date of approval: Upon acceptance of the terms, April 8, 1903, and accepted by Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish April 21, 1903, at South McAlester, Ind.T. Period of time covered: Five year from date. Annulment clause: None. Consideration: Six per cent of the interest of the Chickasaws in whatever sum or sums may be awarded as compensation for lands allotted to Chickasaw freedmen, such compensation not to exceed $27,500 to be apportioned between and paid by the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations in the proportion in which each may be entitled to share in any recovery obtained by them in the suit named in said agreement. Work performed: Judgment recovered in the Court of Claims for $606,936.08 (38 Court of Claims 558, 193 U.S.,115) for which Congress provided in the General Defi- ciency Appropriation Act, approved June 25, 1910, the appropriation of the above amount by that judgment, upon recommendation of the Indian Office. The fee of $27,500 has not yet been paid the firm of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish or their successor in interest by assignment for reason of set-offs claimed by the Chicka- saw and Choctaw Nations to be due from Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish for moneys illegally drawn by them. Nation of Indians: Cherokee. Counsel: William W. Hastings, Tahlequah, Okla. Date of contract: June 7, 1911. . Date of approval: July 14, 1911. Period of time covered: One year—July 1, 1911, to June 30, 1912, inclusive. Contract expires by limitation: June 30, 1912. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and his personal and traveling expenses, and serv- ices of special stenographer when out of Oklahoma. 7 fF Work performed: General services as tribal attorney. No provision for report to secretary, but to principal chief annually on or before June 30, 1912. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, page 256. Nation of Indians: Creek. Counsel: M. L. Mott, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: February 16, 1909. Date of approval: February 23, 1909. Period of time covered: Three years. Contract expires by limitation: March 4, 1912. ie. ies : Annulment clause: To be continued after March 4, 1912, until tribal affairs are closed, unless sooner terminated by Secretary of Interior. Character of employment: General. 2478 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Consideration: $500 per annum and all necessary expenses when absent from Mus- kogee Nation in performance of his duties under thiscontract. =| \Work performed: Services as gencral tribal attorney. No provision in contract for annual report to secretary. ‘ Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, page 234, Indian Office. Nation of Indians: Creck. me . Counsel: W. L. Sturdevant, No. 826 Central National Bank Building, St. Louis, Mo. Date of employment: October 23, 1907, as modified October 24, 1907. Term of employment: Until town lots suits are concluded. _ : Annulment clause: Revocable by Secretary on 30 days’ notice. Notified August 15, 1911, his contract would be terminated September 15, 1911, but on August 24, 1911, his services continued to February 16, 1912, on same basis except for all sums in excess of $100,000 he will be paid 5 per cent instead of 24 per cent. : ak : Character of employment: Special counsel for United States in suits involving lots in Creek towns. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and percentage of 10 per cent on first $100,000 recovered; 5 per cent on money above $100,000; total compensation not to exceed $25,000. Status of subject matter: Large number suits instituted; over $60,000 recovered to date; and many lots reconveyed to Nation. Nation of Indians: Chickasaw. Counsel: Geo. D. Rodgers, Muskogee, Okla. Date of contract: February 19, 1912. Date of approval: February 20, 1912. Period of time covered: One year from February 21, 1912. Contract expires by limitation: February 21, 1913. Annulment clause: Contract may be terminated at any time in discretion of Secre- tary of Interior upon 30 days’ notice to attorney. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and all reasonable and proper expenses. Work performed: Services as general counsel of tribe. Report annually to governor of Chickasaw Nation and to Secretary of Interior on July 1 each year. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, page 270. Nation of Indians: Choctaw. Counsel: McCurtain & Hill, McAlester, Okla. Date of contract: August 31, 1907, and act of Choctaw Council October 14, 1908. Date of approval: October 26, 1907, and November 30, 1908. Period of time covered: Five years. Contract expires by imitation: September 30, 1912. Annulment clause: May be terminate at the discretion of the Secretary, as provided in approval. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and personal and traveling expenses, and the per- sonal and traveling expenses of a clerk to be employed by them at $75 per month while away from McAlester. Increased to $8,000 by act of Choctaw Council October 14, 1908, approved Novem- ber 30, 1908. Work performed: General attorney’s service for nation. Annual report to be sub- mitted to Principal Chief on or before October 20 each year. Recorded: Miscellaneous record book, volume 6, page 28, of Indian Office. Nation of Indians: Choctaw. Counsel: P. J. Hurley, Tulsa, Okla. Date of contract: November 24, 1911. Date of approval: November 27, 1911. Period of time covered: One year from November 27, 1911. Contract expires by limitation November 26, 1911. Annulment clause: Contract ‘‘may be terminated by the Secretary of the Interior at any time upon thirty days notice.” Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum, payable monthly, and his reasonable and neces- sary expenses incurred while out of the city of Tulsa and Antlers, Okla., and when previously authorized to be incurred outside of the State of Oklahoma. Work performed: Appearance before committees of Congress. Report semi-annually to Puneral Chief and Secretary of Interior of services rendered. No report yet required. Recorded: November 29, 1911, in miscellaneous record book, vol 6 Indian Office record. a WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2479 Nation of Indians: Osage. Counsel: Kappler & Merillat, Washington, D. C. Date of contract: March 28, 1910. Date of approval: May 24, 1910. Period of time covered: Two years. Contract expires by limitation: April 9, 1912. Annulment clause: None. Character of employment: General. Consideration: $5,000 per annum and expenses. Work performed: Services as general counsel for the tribe, detailed reports of which have,been submitted with quarterly account for services. : Nation of Indians: Osage. Counsel: Kappler & Merillat. Date of contract: April 15, 1906. Date of approval: May 6, 1908. Period of time covered: Seven years. Contract expires by limitation: April 14, 1915. Annulment clause: Contract may be canceled on failure to perform duties required under contract dated April 11, 1908. Character of employment: Special. To present and prosecute the ‘‘Civilization Fund Claim.”’ Consideration: Ten per cent of amount recovered up to $200,000; 5 per cent over $200,000 and up to $600,000; 2 per cent over $600,000. Status of subject matter: Data for claim prepared. Argument, written and oral, before House Committee on Indian Affairs. Bills introduced in Sixtieth, Sixty-first, ae enone Congresses. Attorneys report claim prepared for court when authorized. Nation of Indians: Omaha. Counsel: Kappler & Merillat, Washington, D.C. Date of contract: September 2, 1910. Date of approval: March 18, 1911. Period of time covered: Five years, or until matters are determined and concluded, if matters are adjudicated before expiration of five years. Annulment clause: Subject to cancellation by Secretary of Interior by giving parties thereto 60 days’ notice in writing. Consideration: Ten per cent of amount of judgment, but not to exceed $25,000. Status of subject matter: Petition filed in Court of Claims and information furnished about claim to Department of Justice. ‘~ SEMINOLE. The Seminole Nation or tribe of Indians has never had a tribal attorney since the passage of the Curtis Act of June 28, 1898 (30 Stat. L., 495), or since the affairs of that tribe came under the supervision of the Secretary of the Interior. But Congress, b act approved June 25, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 703, 744, par. 2), in the sundry civil bill, provided: “For the payment of all and any necessary expenses incurred incident to any suits brought at the request of the Secretary of the Interior, including the salary of an attor- ney specially employed, to set aside illegal conveyances of title or protecting the possession of Seminole allotiees to their allotted lands in the Seminole Nation, to be expended under the direction of the Attorney General, six thousand dollars.’ nder the above provision the Attorney General appointed James E. Gresham, a special assistant to the Attorney General, to become effective August 1, 1910, at a salary of $4,000 per annum, with an allowance of panos pier and necessary expenses, and he has been stationed at Wewoka, Okla., as ‘‘Counsel to Seminole allottees.”’ The Attorney General has asked for an appropriation of $15,000 to carry on the work for the next fiscal year. ’ YANKTON. The act of April 4, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 264) conferred jurisdiction upon the Court of Claims to determine the title of the Yankton Sioux Indians to the red pipestone quarries in Minnesota, and provided that the United States, through the Secretary of the Interior, should furnish, without cost to said Indians, a ee attorney or attorneys to eee for and represent them in the proceedings. The act of March 3, 1911 (36 Stat. L., 1058, 1065), appropriated the sum of $5,000 to defray the cost of expense of litigation, including compensation of counsel. 2480 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. At the request of a large number of the Yankton band, the department, on August 2, 1911, offered employment to Mr. L. B. French, of Yankton, 8. Dak., as attorney for the Yankton Indians, in the litigation before the Court of Claims, at a compensation of $50 per day for the time actually devoted to the case. It appears that Mr. French accepted the employment under date of August 4. No formal contract was mad2. Mr. Burcu. Have you prepared, Mr. Valentine, a list of the tribal attorneys at the present time and their compensation ? Mr. VALENTINE. This includes those also, sir. Mr. Burcu. Which? This last paper ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir; that is, these are all the contracts whether on a contingent basis or whether for a yearly salary. Mr. Burcu. I understanh by the use of the word “tribal” the yearly salary. Me VALENTINE. We call them in the Indian Office both tribal contracts. Mr. Burcu. What are yearly salary contracts for the general pur- pose of conserving or watching the interests of the Indians, irrespec- tive of claims they have against the Government before Congress and before the Court of Claims, are included in the book and in the three exhibits following ? Mr. VaLEenTINE. I am quite sure that they are included in the ex- ae nee and very likely in the book, but I am not sure about the book. Mr. Burcu. Would it be possible from the manner in which you have prepared those to segregate those which look to the collection of claims from those which look to the consulship, I may say, or at- torneyship of the tribe @ Mr. VaLentine. I think we could separate them, although there might be one or two cases where the contract would have to be in both columns. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, what have you to say with respect to this system of employing attorneys, or rather allowing the Indians to employ attorneys upon contracts claimed to have been entered into with the Indian tribes with respect to their justice and their advisability @ Mr. VaLentine. That is a very decp question, Judge, but’ one might be inclined at first blush, looking at the thing theoretically, to say that these contracts are indefensible on the ground that the Government of the United States should be so strengthened—the departments should be so strengthened—that they could take care of this business themselves. I have no hesitancy in saying that to a great extent that ought to be the course to be pursued; that the legal machinery of the Department of the Interior, whether in the Indian Office or elsewhere, as to details should be very much strengthened. On the other hand, since so many of the Indians are citizens and have rights independent of the relation of the Government to them as a quasi guardian, I have a strong sympathy for any tribe of Indians that wants any addition to the Federal and bureaucratic—using bureaucratic in a perfectly harmless sense—guardianship of the Gov- ernment that would wish to have in addition to that a representative of their own in their legal affairs, and I have so much sympathy with that aspect of the situation that I feel in many instances tribes should have attorneys of their own if we can make an arrangement by which it is done in an absolutely bona fide fashion. Of course there is one WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9481 aspect that I have not mentioned where the tribes must of necessity have attorneys of their own, and that is where they have a claim against the Government for money, where the department would be, as I understand it, debarred from prosecuting their claims—that is, the Indian Office can not assist the Indians in withdrawing their money under the claim from the Treasury of the United States. The rather aun capacity of the Indian Bureau in being at once respon- sible for the interests of the Indians and at the same time part of the governmental machinery is to a certain extent Janus-faced, and under those circumstances it 1s not only right morally, but the only sound law that Indians should have their own representatives. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, do you think it is right that these Indians should be obliged to pay for attorneys to collect moneys that are oe them, or to enforce rights that are due them, from the United States ? Mr. VaLenTINE There again, broadly speaking, I should say no to that question, and if the accounting which I think I called to the attention of the committee the other day were had, I think it is safe to say that a very large percentage of these present claims would drop of their own weight. If there were a clear business-like account- ing, a business relation between the Government and the tribes, all that would be necessary, in my judgment, would be to put the matter before Congress. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, suppose you had just reached your majority, having been under guardianslup for a period of vears, and I had been vour guardian, and it was questionable in vour mind as to whether I had acted faithfully in performing the duties of my trust, and there was a judge, called a surrogate or judge of probate, having probate jurisdiction over the matter, would you consider it the proper thing for you to be obliged to employ, even if you had the opportunity to select yourself, you being of immature vears, to select an attorney to pursue me before that judge and pay him out of your money ? Mr. Valentine. Well, I can only answer that question by saving that if we had anything like an ideal state of affairs I should feel that it was an unjust burden on me to have to employ an attorney for that purpose. Mr. Burcu. Now isn’t it an injustice / Mr. VaLentive. The point I wanted to make was that the relation of the Federal Government to the Indian tribes—you lawyers have had much more to do with it than I, but looking at it from the view- point of a layman it looks like a unique case to me. It is not, as I understand it, wholly the relation of a trustee, wholly the relation of a guardian. It is a very curious, I should suppose, legal phe- nomenon, and wholly unlike anything that exists in private life or other kinds of public life, and that fact may make it necessary to have certain machinery which would not be under other conditions necessary. Mr. Burcu. Now, I don’t want to ask a layman to pass upon legal propositions, but only common-sense propositions. You have heard of people paying for their own funeral. Now, as a matter of common sense, if a man had a trust, assuming to fulfill that trust, regarding vourself, would you think, if it was found that the man had been unmindful of his trust, that he had not lived up to the full 2482 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. measure of it, that the burden of finding that out and of compelling his action should come upon you? Now, this is a case in which he had not lived up to the full measure of his trust. Mr. VALENTINE. I think it would be obviously unjust, under the case as you put it, that I should bear the burden. Mr. Burcu. Isn’t that exactly the case with these Indians, who «are asking the right to pursue before the Court of Claims, and who are pursuing before Congress claims against the United States to obtain their rights ? ; Mr. VALENTINE. I might be willing to assent to that in the abstract, but—and that is rather a big ‘‘but” in my mind—the first step it seems to me in the reform which you evidently have in mind is to get on a business basis Mr Burcu. I don’t advocate any reform; I want to find out what is right and wrong. ; Mr. Vatentine. The first thing to do is to get on a business basis and make an accounting, and the present situation with regard to attorneys is, in my mind, a very serious reflection on the whole attitude of the Federal Government, legislative and administrative, toward the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Now, as I understand you or Mr. Meritt, or somebody, upward of $4,000,000 has been taken out of the Indians themselves— sliced out of these claims in what sometimes seems to be enormous attorney fees for prosecuting these claims in their behalf in the Court of Claims and before Congress. Now that obviously has gone to attorneys. Do you think it is right toward these Indians that the United States, instead of compelling the Indians to go to that expense and trouble, should not establish some sort of a commission or author- ity lodged in some court by which the officers of the Government directly charged to look after the interests of the Indians in an impartial way, paid by the Government, should not do these things just the same as the judge would do if he was looking after the care of an estate? In other words, looking after the care of minors as against the administrator? Or, to put that to you right square, I want to know what you would do about it, and I think there are a great many other people who would like to know. My. VALENTINE. First, I would say that this $4,000,000 is only a small part of the total sum. That $4,000,000, if I recall correctly, was sliced, as you say, out of the tribal funds since the year 1898. Mr. Burcu. Out of the tribal rights or the funds ? Mr. VatenTInE. The tribal rights. And, broadly speaking, if I understand your last statement correctly, I would like to give a full and unqualified assent to your statement. Mr. Georce. Of course that is a layman’s view. Mr. Burcu. Yes, but I am not asking for a legal opinion. I am not asking him as a lawyer but as an official who has had these matters in charge and who must necessarily have reflected about that if he conscientiously attended to his duty. Mr. VALENTINE. There is only one point that occurs to me in that connection, and that is the point I made at the beginning, that so many of the Indians have become citizens that, not only as to their personal affairs but as to their personal relations and their private affairs, I think the plan you suggest would meet with a good deal of opposition, and some of it just, because they would feel that they \ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2483 should have the same right to go into court with the line of appeal up to the Supreme Court of the United States that any other citizen would have on any subject in which he was individually or as a party interested. Mr. Burcu. But that is where an Indian wants to litigate with another Indian or he wants to litigate with the Government as an Indian who has become a citizen of the United States, and he con- ceives that he has the same right as against the United States as any other citizen. You think he should have the right to employ an attorney in that case? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I am inclined to think that he would claim it. Mr. Burcu. He could refuse it or deny it in such a case as that you state, that is, a claim of the citizen against the Government, which is the same as any claim against the Government. Would it be right to deny him? Do you claim it would be right to deny him that right ? Mr. VaLentine. No; that is what I am trying to get-at. Mr. Burcu. I simply want to make it clear. Do the committee understand ? Mr. Georces. Yes. Mr. VaLenTINE. Furthermore, that is a mighty important thing to throw out such a claim. : Mr. Burcu. Yes; and then what right has the Secretary of the- Interior to direct their cases at law ? Mr. VaLENTINE. None whatever. Mr. Burcu. Does he assume to do it? Mr. Vatentine. I think he does under the present situation, necessarily so. Mr. Burcu. If the case grew out of a tribal matter, do you mean? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. If it grew out of a tribal matter, then, even aes these Indians are emancipated and become citizens, so to speak, the Secretary assumes the right to say whether they shall have that attorney or not. Mr. Vatentine. As to tribal matters not yet settled. Mr. Burcu. Oh, that is different. Wouldn’t that come within the first category I mentioned ? Mr. VaLentineE. I think it probably would. Mr. Burcu. That it would be adjusted the same as an impartial court, impartial officers paid by the Government, the same as the settlement of an estate. Mr. VaLentiIneE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Wouldn’t it be somewhat after the analogy of a judge of probate, or having probate jurisdiction, cleaning up an estate? Mr. VaLenTiIne. I am not lawyer enough to answer that, but, broadly speaking, I would like to indorse that plan. Mr. Burcu. ‘Now, I will go along and state further —what do you think of the proposition of lawyers ‘being allowed to go down onto the the reservations and cowshed the Indians ? Mr. VALENTINE. What’s that ? . Mr. Burcu. Buttonhole these Indians, separately or collectively, in the so-called council, and enter into contracts with them on prices to be adjusted and agreed upon, subject to the approval of the Secre- 9484 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. tary of the Interior. Wouldn’t that be very much the same as @ man being allowed to go out and make a contract with a lot of children who have not yet reached their maturity, about the management. of their property? I mean minor children; not their guardians, but the minor children themselves. Mr. VALENTINE. The course you mention is under the present regu- lations of the department contrary to those regulations. Mr. Burcu. What are those regulations? That is what I want to find out. We have had some testimony in this case showing how they do. Mr. Vatenrine. I will submit to you, sir, for the record, the laws and regulations governing the recognition of agents, attorneys, and other persons to represent claims before the Department of the Inte- rior and the bureaus thereof. Mr. Burcu. Before the Department of the Interior? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. That isn’t the Court of Claims. Mr. VaLentTINE. Oh, no; this is not the one I thought it was. When Mr. Meritt handed it to me I thought it was the regulations, which I will supply for the record. The thing I am referring to is the regulation, which I will get from the office and submit to you. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Orrice oF InpIAN AFFAIRS, Washington, December 23, 1910.” To all superintendents and agents: . The attention of the Indian Office has recently been directed to the fact that it is a frequent occurrence that superintendents and agents, without. first consulting the department or the Indian Office, allow contracts to be made with the Indians under their control for the employment of attorneys or agents to take charge of and conduct some tribal interest or interests. Section 2103 of the Revised Statutes of the United States provides that no agreement shall be made by any person with any tribe of Indians or individual Indians not citizens of the United States for certain purposes, except that it be executed in a certain manner and receive the approval of the Secretary of the Interior and the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs. While such contracts must be approved before they are effective, there are important considerations necessarily connected with such trans- actions affecting the welfare and material interests of the Indians that should be considered by the department and the Indian Office prior to any presentation of the subject to the Indians concerned. : It is the duty of the department and the Indian Office to administer the affairs of the Indian tribes under the jurisdiction of the Government, and it is believed to be in the interest of good administration not to permit any contracts with any agent or attorney to be entered into with Indian tribes or individual Indians not citizens of the United States without departmental authority previously granted. Superintendents and Indian agents are hereby directed not to allow the negotiation of such contracts with the Indians under their charge unless explicitly advised by the department or the Indian Office that prior authority therefor has been granted. Contracts negotiated without such authority will not receive consideration either by the department or the Indian Office. The receipt of this order should be immediately acknowledged. Very respectfully, R. G. VaLentine, Commissioner. DecemBER 24, 1910. : Approved, R, A. Bauurncer, Secretary. Mr. Burcu. I will submit a hypothetical case supplied by the evi- dence, as I understand it to be in this case, in the White Earth matter. Aman claiming to have authority from the Interior Department—the WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2485 {ndian Bureau—and claiming to be an attorney at law, goes onto a reservation and calls together a council of Indians. Certain of the Indians come together and he meets with them and proposes to them a contract for the prosecution of a claim against the Government for them in the United States Court of Claims, they being supposed to be Indians on the reservation and in interest. He has a partial council, or so-called council, and then loads up a portion of those present—five or six wagon loads—and next day carries them to an- other lace where notice has been given for Indians to come in for an adjourned council, and having completed the same process there he proceeds around to a number of places. Under those circumstances these Indians make what purports to be an agreement, what is called an agreement, with him for a stipulated percentage on what he can collect in their behalf from the United States in the Court of Claims, and that is brought back for the approval of, I suppose, the Sec- retary of the Interior or the legal commissioners of she Secretary of the Interior—whoever eae upon that matter—he to have, we will say, 10 per cent of all that is collected. Do you consider that a square deal and a sensible proposition ? Mr. VaLENTINE. No, sir; I consider it a joke or worse. Mr. Burcu. I am not speaking as a matter of law, but as a matter of common sense and business judgment, You regard these Indians as children, do you not? That is, they are under guardianship, or supposed to be. ir. VALENTINE. In so far as their property is concerned. Mr. Burcu. So far as their property rights are concerned, they are under guardianship ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You understand of course that that means they are either minors or inebriates or imbiciles or lunatics or something of that kind necessary to have guardians. Mr. VALENTINE. Or children. Mr. Burcu. I said minors, which means children. Now would you consider it the proper thing to allow an attorney to go out and treat with a lunatic or an inebriate or an imbecile or a minor child about his employment as their attorney ? Mr. VaLentTine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then can you tell me upon what hypothesis, upon what basis this system is proceeded, as a matter of law? That is, is there a law authorizing it ¢ Mr. VALENTINE. T think there is, in some cases. Mr. Burcu. Is that by special act of Congress ? Mr. VALENTINE. I think so, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now that is the process I want to get at. Mr. Grorce. Do you mean to say that there is no general law gov- erning this matter ? . ; Mr. VaLentINE. There is a general law on the subject, section 2103 of the Revised Statutes. . Mr. Grorce. The point, as I understand it, is that you are asking him whether this applies to the law that governs all of these cases or whether these are single cases. Mr. Burcu. I asked him a double-barreled question. I will segre- gate it now and only put one barrel to him. There is a general law that covers some such cases as that ? 2486 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VaLentine. There is a general law which governs, as I under- stand it, the negotiating of attorneys’ contracts. Mr. Burcu. That is what I would like tosee. While we are waiting for that, is it the custom to present to Congress— that is, have Repre- sentative So-and-So or Senator So-and-So introduce a, bill providing that such and such a tribe may have the right to go into the Court of Claims and employ an attorney, and so forth? Is that a common custom ? : ; d Vir. VALENTINE. That is the custom in connection with this other matter. Mr. Burcu. What other matter? ; ; Mr. VaLENnTINE. In connection with the process outlined in sec- tion 2103 of the Revised Statutes of the United States. Myr. Burcu. That is a corollary or supplementary line of proceeding to the general authority in section 2103. ; : Mr. VALENTINE. What I wanted to call to your attention was this section 2103. This seems to be a method of procedure for makin contracts between attorneys and Indian tribes, and for their approva by the department. Now it lies with the department to do that thing and approve of a contract with attorneys whether or not there has been an enabling act under which a particular tribe may sue, and if I am correct in my recollection, the department has taken the position that it should not approve contracts even when made after the lines laid down in section 2103 until there has been such an enabling act procured. Mr. Burcu. Now will you please read into the record section 2103 of the Revised Statutes. 1 want to have it right before every member of the Committee. Mr. VALENTINE. Section 2103 of the Revised Statutes of the Uni- ted States reads as follows: Sec. 2103. No agreement shall be made by any person with any tribe of Indians, or individual Indians not citizens of the United States, for the payment or delivery of any money or other thing of value, in present or in prospective, or for the granting or procuring any privilege to him, or any other person in consideration of services for said Indians relative to their lands, or to any claims growing out of, or in reference to, annuities, installments, or other moneys, claims, demands, or thing, under laws or treaties with the United States, or official acts of any officers thereof, or in any way con- nected with or due from the United States, unless such contract or agreement be ex- cepted and approved as follows: First. Such agreement shall be in writing, and a duplicate of it delivered to each arty. e Second. It shall be executed before a judge of a court of record, and bear the ap- proval of the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs indorsed upon it. Third. It shall contain the names of all parties in interest, their residence and occu- pation; and if made with a tribe, by their tribal authority, the scope of authority and the reason for exercising that authority, shall be given specifically. Fourth. It shall state the time when and place where made, the particular purpose for which made, the special thing or things to be done under it, and, if for the collec- tion of money, the basis of the claim, the source from which it is to be collected, the disposition to be made of it when collected, the amount or rate per centum of the fee in all cases; and if any contingent matter or condition constitutes a part of the con- tract or agreement, it shall be specifically set forth. It shall have a fixed limited time to run, which shall be distinctly stated. ; Sixth. The judge before whom such contract or agreement is executed shall certify officially the time and place where such contract or agreement was excuted, and that it was in his presence, and who are the interested parties thereto, as stated to him at the time; the parties present making the same; the source and extent of authority claimed at the time by the contracting parties to make the contract or agreement, and whether made in'person or by agent or attorney of either party or parties. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2487 All contracts or agreements made in violation of this section shall be null and void, and all money or other thing of value paid to any person by any Indian or tribe, or any one else, for or on his or their behalf, on account of such services, in excess of the amount approved by the Commissioner and Secretary for such services, may be re- covered by suit in the name of the United States in any court of the United States, regardless of the amount in controversy; and one-half thereof shall be paid to the person suing for the same, and. the other half shall be paid into the Treasury for the use of the Indian or tribe by or for whom it was so paid. Then the following section, 2104, which is very brief, deals with the payments under contracts. Then section 2105 is brief, ‘‘Penalty for receiving moneys from Indians under prohibited contracts.” Section 2106 is brief, ‘‘ Assignments of contracts restricted.” Mr. Burcu. Now that we have called attention to that, anybody may look it up who chooses todoso. Now what you state is that the Secretary of the Interior, construing that statute, has said in effect to attorneys who seek to make these contracts, ‘‘You must get an enabling act from Congress—what is called a jurisdictional act from Congress—allowing the parties to go into the Court of Claims or before Congress,” as the case may be. Mr. VaLentine. That is what I stated, but not, as I understand i considering that particular act. That is the general jurisdictional aw. Mr. Burcu. He says he won’t approve any unless they have that enabling act. Mr. VALENTINE. That is his present holding. Mr. Burcu. His present holding: that is a matter of his own discretion, and he might review that and vary from it at any time? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is, one Secretary might take a different view of it from another Secretary and change that without transgressing the law in any wav, violating the law in any way. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, the Secretary might except some particular case for reasons sufficient to him. Mr. Burcu. He might make exceptions in his rule ? Mr. VALENTINE. To his policy, yes. Mr. Burcu. Then under the ordinary rule of the employment of an attorney, Congress must interfere and pass this enabling act ? Mr. VaLentinE. Yes; and I will call your attention to the fact that we have recommended a general enabling act. Mr. Burcu. In other werds, you set the seal of your approval upon this system, is that the idea? Mr. VaLentine. In so far as that does it, yes, allowing the Indians to go into the Court of Claims. We don’t necessarily approve of the present attorney system. Mr. Burcu. Then if your recommendation should mature into a general enabling act, still the once would have to comply with these sections of the statute after all, that is, under that general enabling act ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. . Mr. Burcu. That enabling act then is only what you might call a jurisdictional act, giving the Court of Claims authority to make a determination in cases of claims. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, and would not in any way affect the attorney question, which might be supplied entirely independent of it. 2488 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. When an attorney is allowed to go and treat with these Indians, is there any Government officer sent with him, any officer of any bureau to see that he deals properly with these Indians ? Is he required to be at all times in the company, in his dealings with these Tdiats, of some authorized official of sufficient standing, of the Indian Bureau or any other bureau ? . . Mr. VALENTINE. I believe that the council is supposed to be held by the local superintendent. Mr. Burcu. That is just the council. : Mr. VaLenTINE. And in some other cases by the special officer sent to hold the council. ; Mr. Burcu. He generally presides in the council ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What he may do outside of the council is not the sub- ject of inquiry? That is, unless there are special orders given ? Mr. VaLentine. As a general principle I should say it would not be. I will try to find out some specific cases of just what has been done in that connection. Mr. Burcu. I would like to find out, as a general proposition, whether anybody is delegated to watch him, to watch this attorney in his dealings with these Indians and see that he does not take advantage of them. In other words, they are on the reservations, are they not? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. And this man is given authority to go on the reser- vation ¢ Mr. VaLenTINeE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. For this purpose ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir; and is under the jurisdiction of the superintendent of the reservation. . Burcu. He is under the jurisdiction, but does he receive, in your opin, the supervision of that agent ? Mr. VaLentine. That is the point I want to look up carefully s that I can advise you correctly. : Mr. Burcu. Is your experience with these agents or superintend- ents such that you believe they would in every instance follow that man or detail somebody to follow him and watch what he says and his personal appeals or arguments with these Indians before the coun- oll Ls the possibility of his bribing some of the Indians to favor his plans? Mr. VaLenTineE. In the line of what you were saying earlier this afternoon, we would not want to assume that people were going to do all these irregular things you have mentioned, bat there certainly is some careful safeguarding. Mr. Burcu. Why wouldn’t you want to assume that? Haven’t there been endless scandals on this subject in nearly every instance— in a large number of instances, I will say—haven’t there been scandals? Mr. VaLenTInE. There have been scandals, undoubtedly. os Mr. Buron. I will ask you again, in a large number, if not nearly all of them, haven’t there been scandals in connection with these attorney fees ? . Mr. Vatentine. I wouldn’t want to say nearly all, because I think it would be a pretty general statement to make, that the bulk of anything in the world is bad. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2489 Mr. Burcu. Hasn’t there been enough scandals to put the Secre- tary of the Interior and the officers of the Government on their guard ? Mr. VALENTINE. That is correct, I think. There has certainly been enough to put us on our guard, so that the thing is safeguarded now in every possible way. Mr. Grorce. You agree that the Indian Bureau ought to be on its guard as well as the other officials of the Government / r. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. GeorGe. Has that been done? Mr. VALENTINE. Not to my satisfaction; no, sir. Mr. GrorGe. Have you ever made any effort to require that guard to be made, or set up any condition that would safeguard the Indians in that respect ? Mr. VaLentine. | don’t know that I can say that I have made any efforts. I don’t recall any efforts that I have made in this par- ticular matter of safeguarding the relations between attorneys and Indians when the attorney was on the reservation, but in regard to the general subject I have made some very vigorous attempts to bring about improvements. Mr. Burcn. Of course, you would not consider yourself qualified to say whether it took a high order of ability in counselors at law to prosecute these claims in the Court of Claims or not? Mr. VaLenTINE. J think I am competent to pass upon that question. Mr. Burcn. Does it, in your opinion, require a high order of ability ? Mr. VaLentine. I should say that if it were done right it would take a high order of ability and a high order of character. Mr. Burcu. To be done right ! Mr. VaLentTINE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. What does that mean ? Mr. VaLentine. J don’t know how I can make it any clearer, Judge. It seems to me, as a layman, that these matters require, in the first place, a vast amount of study into things that run back several decades, and in some cases probably over a hundred years. They require a vast amount of research, and certainly great powers of analysis in getting at the kernel of the thing, which would require strong intellectual qualities as well as patience, so that a mere drudge would hardly be able to get at it. And then there are undoubtedly in many of these cases some pretty fine points of law which very able men would disagree on, and it seems to me that a very high order of intellectual capacity is required; and, furthermore, the tes- timony now before the committee shows the dangers, which would indicate that a very high order of character should be required in attornevs—men of high standards—not only that they might not get into positive trouble if they did wrong, but high moral standards of their own. Mr. Burcu. That is the ideal. Do you get it? So far as your judgment is concerned, have they gotten it ? Mr. VALENTINE. I think I have already expressed my general opin- ion of some of these attorneyships. Mr. Burcu. Well, in what manner? Mr. VaLentine. It was made a part of the record, I think, in the speech I made before the Indian Fights Association. Mr. Burcu. I did not read that. Now, suppose Congress by: legislation should provide that one or two men should be employed 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-8, vol 2——62 2490 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. at regular salaries, attorneys at esa salaries, to examine and present to the Court of Claims on behalf of the Indians, claims of this sort, of the sort generally made before the Court of Claims, with instructions to serve them under their official oaths as attorneys and counselors at law, working at it all the while, familiarizing themselves with that business at the expense of the Government— what would you think of a proposition of that kind? Mr. VaLentTINE. If that would be possible under the law I wish a section of the Department of Justice could be created with that end in view. Mr. Burcu. I don’t mean whether it is under the Department of Justice. Mr. VaLentine. That is irrelevant, but I have often thought that Indian matters—if you will Ae me to make a “use stion about another department—if the Department of Justice itself could have its Indian matters handled in one division—I understand of course that such a plan as you outline could be made and not be contrary to what I understand is the provision of the law which prohibits a Federal official from engaging in a claim against the Treasury of the United States—that such an arrangement would be advantageous. Of course there is friction under the present method, but if there was no more friction in the course you mention than under the present method I think it would be infinitely preferable. Mr. Burcu. Of course that is in the discretion of Congress. The prohibition against attorneys accepting claims could be changed easily enough. Now, wouldn’t this scandal, the iniquities of this tribal attorney business, couldn’t it be all eliminated by one or two men getting good salaries, competent and able counsel, just the same as those which represent the Government before any of these courts, but especially delegated to the use of the Indians, wouldn’t that eliminate this whole system of attorneys who make arrangements separately with these Indians ? Mr. VaLentine. The point I have been considering with Mr. Meritt is whether the Indians themselves would be content with that plan, whether under the situation that would follow the Indians would have the right to go into court. If the plan you suggest has not that against it, it would be the great second step in advance. The first would be the accounting, and the second such a plan as you propose. Mr. Buren. Would you think it wise and proper if the interests of children under guardianship should be prosecuted without the consent of the guardian ? Mr. VALENTINE. That is where I can not quite follow you with regard to the Indians, because I think there is an element in the situation which. differentiates the Indians from the classes of children and all the other classes of incompetents which you mention. In other words, you have a very anomolous situation here in which you have a num- ber of persons, who in certain respects need guardianship and in other respects have all the rights and privileges of any other citizen. #4 Mr. Burcu. That has been fully considered by the courts, and very particularly in a late case in the Circuit Court of Appeals, Eighth circuit, United States ». Allen, by Judge Amidon. That anomolous shadowy line of Government control over Indian affairs is very fully considered. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2491 The Cuarrman. What volume is that case reported in? Mr. Burcu. J have forgotten now. It was only two or three years ao. Mr, Vaventine. That is a case now pending in the Supreme Court, is it not? Mr. Burcu. Perhaps it is, but the opinion, whatever it is, even though it has been appealed from, is considered a very able and difficult one, establishing the con‘rol of the Government over the Indians; that is, keeping it up to a reasonable extent. The point I am getting at is this: The Indians, like other persons of dependent relation—dependent in their relation—might naturally have the choice of ditferent people, but I am speaking of what would be an attempt to eliminate what apparently is a continuous scandal so far as I have ever heard of it in the employment of attorneys, separate attorneys, to prosecute these claims at enormously high percentages, considering the large amount involved and claimed in behalf of the Indians, and whether that isn’t one of the difficulties the Indians labor under and whether in your opinion it could be managed and if so, what the remedy is? Mr. VaLentTine. The judge’s question, Mr. Chairman, raises a point that I am of course going to answer, but I would like to ask for my own information how far it is deemed proper by you for me in answering these questions for the record to make what may be con- sidered by some people to be a rather serious criticism of certain actions. For instance, the question that I am now going to answer involves the procedure of the Court of Claims of the ‘United States. Mr. Burcu. It was not intended that way. Mr. VALENTINE. Perhaps I ought not to say the procedure, but the action of the Court of Claims of the United States, and I take it that the only thing this committee wants is the truth, and that is what I want to give you. The CuarrnMAN. Alter hearing the statement by Mr. Valentine it is decided that the matter is competent to be heard. Mr. VALENTINE. The question, as I recall it, under this discussion should have from me this answer, namely, that these matters of scandal to which you refer are not wholly, apparently, within the jurisdiction you were thinking of, because the Court of Claims itself im many cases, having whole power under the law to fix attorneys’ fees, must be held responsible for the size of these fees, and it is apparent that the great size of the fees is a continuous incentive to attorneys to prosecute such claims before the court. Mr. Burcu. Now, how about the contracts wherein the fees are fixed or supposed to be between the tribe and the attorneys, and approved by the Secretary ? fr. VALENTINE. Then the scandal of which you speak could only exist in case an investigation of any particular contract showed that that fee had been fixed too high, or if also, on investigation of that particular contract, it was shown that some fraud had been perpe- trated in connection with some feature of it which would not be before the Secretary at the time of his decision. oe Mr. Burcu. That is, in the attorney dealing with the Indian? Mr. VALENTINE. Y6s, sir. 2492 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. I have gone over this matter quite carefully in your absence, Mr. Chairman, and I have placed in the record the entire list of the attorneys since 1880 down to the present time. ; The Cuarrman. I suppose it would-not be out of order to pu in the record at this point the fact that my absence was caused by my appearance before a subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs, urging upon that subcommittee the inadvisability of a favor- able report on House bill 20739, a bill for the pues of issuing patents on certain Indian lands on the White Earth Reservation, which has been conveyed to others by the Indians. The bill provides that on the expiration of 90 days after the date of passage of the act, on compliance with certain conditions named in it, the Secretary of the Interior would issue patents and deliver them, not to the allottee, but to the register of deeds in the county where the land is situated, and making that a delivery of the patent in law. Mr. Burcu. I suggest the term ‘‘fee simple” has not been used by the Chairman. The CuarrMan. It is not used. Mr. Burcu. It is not in the act? There are trust patents and fee simple patents. The Cuarrman. It is fee simple patents that I refer to. The sub- ‘committee wanted to get my views, and I was glad to give them. That is the reason why I was absent. : Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Valentine, you have related to this com- mittee your besetments and limitations in general. I would like to ask you, in order to learn how general, that is, how widely dissemi- nated, these besetments are respecting, if I can, the several reserva- tions and Indian schools, for I find them intermingled more or less, that you have thus far become aware of, as illustrative of the condi- tions on these reservations and the conditions mentioned in your general observations, and for that purpose I have obtained here a ublication of your own, ‘Roster of Officers of the United States ndian Service.” Have you had any trouble of this kind in relation to the Indian schools, any of these besetments or troubles ? Mr. Vatentine. J don’t think they are peculiar either to schools or a eee They of course differ according to conditions in each place. Mr. Burcu. The two are intermingled, are they not? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Indian schools and reservations ? Mr. VALENTINE. The reservation school is frequently, in a sense, a small reservation, because it may have a section or more of land around it. Mr. Burcu. Contrarywise, is not a large reservation governed by the superintendent, so called, of the school ? Mr. Vatenrine. There is a confusion of terms there which should be cleared away at once. Every one is familiar with the old-time United States Indian agent. What we to-day call the superintendent of the United States Indian school, the United States Indian school superintendent, is nothing more nor less than the old-time United States Indian agent under a different name. Mr. Burcu. Having jurisdiction over the reservation and the peo- ple of the reservation, and perhaps more than one reservation. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2493 Mr. VaLentixeE. In other words, it is merely a change of termin- ology which came in with the gradual abolition of the agents, political agents as they were called, and the introduction of the civil service system. What I want to make plain is that these business managers who in former times were called Indian agents and to-day are called by the incorrect phraseology ‘‘school superintendents,’ are not school men in the technical sense of the term at all. That phrase- ology gives rise to a great deal of misunderstanding. Mr. Buren. With that explanation now I will ask you about Albuquerque. Is that a school or reservation ? Mr. VALENTINE. That is a nonreservation school. Mr. Burcu. Js there any trouble there or scandal ! Mr. VALENTINE. I don’t recall any at the present moment. Mr. Burcu. Bay Mills, Mich., do you know anything about that? Ts there any trouble there ? Mr. VaLentine. [ haven't heard anything recently about that. Mr. Burcn. Bishop, Cal., is there any trouble there ‘ Mr. VaLENTINE. So far as I know that is running smoothly. Mr. Burcn. Bismarck, N. Dak. ? Mr. VALENTINE. The trouble there is that we don’t need the school. Mr. Burcn. Now what is the trouble there? Have you no authority to climinate it ? = Mr. VaLentine. [| will refer you to the record, which contains some interesting as well xs amusing statements about that. Mr. Burcu. What record ? Mr. VALENTINE. Jn a document there which [ have already quoted. Mr. Burcu. Couldn’t you give us in a general way the outlines of it without putting too much in the record ? Mr. VALENTINE. I would like to put this referencein. It may furnish interesting reading to some people. The document, Mr. Chairman, is Hearings before a subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs on the Indian appropriation bill, January 17,1912. That is the cur- rent bill now before the House, or will soon be before the House of Representatives. I simply wish to refer to it by page, and then I will make a brief statement of what the point is. In this connection I will refer to pages 235 to 246 of the document mentioned. Mr. Burcu. What is the trouble, in brief? Mr. VALENTINE. The trouble in brief is that this school was not felt to be needed by the Indian Service when it was founded and it is not considered to be so located or to have such character of land — around it as to be a necessary part of the school system of that section of the country, and I have recommended its discontinuance last year and the year before. This year we left it out, and the committee, I am informed, has put it back in the bill. -Mr. Burcu. Have you any knowledge about how that could have. been, schools being instituted that were not needed by the Indian Service, in their opmion. How could such a thing happen, how did it happen, if you know? The reason I ask is eee such a thing occurred in my own State and made a great deal of talk. Mr. Vatentixe. The thing probably happened out of what I would consider to be an honest difference of opinion between very likely the North Dakota delegation in Congress and the Indian Bureau. Mr. Burcu. That is what I wanted to know, and whether the Bureau wanted the school established. Was it an expensive school? Mr. VaLenTineE. Rather so. 2494 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. It has some good buildings. : Mr. VALENTINE. There are some very good buildings up there, es, sir. 7 The CHarrMAN. IIave you the cost of the improvements con- venient ? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t think the full school plant is carried to-day on our books—$85,423.64 is the cost. The appropriation for 1911 contained $2,000 for general repairs and improvements, $20,000 for the erection of a school building, and $2,000 for live stock and machinery. So they not only did not accept our suggestion of leaving the school out, but they have increased the plant. Mr. Burcu. Whom does that come out of? Mr. VaLeNnTINE. That came out of the Treasury of the United States—your pocket and mine. Mr. Burcu. It was not by the recommendation of the Indian Bureau ? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. The CuarrmMan. Why was it not justified ? Mr. VALENTINE. The reports of my field men show that we do not feel that we need that school as a part of our general school program. The Cuarrmay. Is it near a reservation ? Mr. VALENTINE. It-is situated at Bismarck, N. Dak., and that is about 65 or 70 miles, at least, north of Standing Rock Reservation, in North Dakota, and perhaps 100 miles from Fort Berthold Reser- vation. I feel that that money could be better spent, if it were nec- essary at all in that section of the country, either in improving some other school, increasing the capacity, or in developing the school system on the reservation. The Cuarrman. Have the Indians who live on these reservations funds of their own ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. The CuairnMAN. Have they schools of their own on the reserva- tions ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. . The CuainMANn. Where are the students brought from to the Bis- marck school ? Mr. VaLentine. They come from those reservations in North Dakota. ‘ The Cuarrman. What points of superiority has it for the purpose of educating the Indian students over the reservation school ? Mr. VatentinE. It is my honest opinion that it has none, sir, and that the money could be much better spent, if it is necessary to spend it anywhere, in improving those schools. For instance, on the Stand- ing Rock Reservation we have what is known as the Martin Agricul- tural School, which has some very fine land upon it and should he made a great agricultural and industrial school. While-on the other hand, the Bismarck school has very little agricultural land. The Cuarrman. Would the inference that this is an improvement to Bismarck rather than to the Indian be a violent one? Mr. VaLentineE. I should say not, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Burcu. Blackfoot in Montana, is that a reservation or 2 school? Mr. VALENTINE. That is a reservation. Mr. Burcu. How large was it, generally speaking ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2495 Mr. VaLentTINE. It is a very large reservation, probably as large as Connecticut, if not larger. Mr. Burcu. Are there any troubles or scandals there ¢ Mr. VaLENTINE. There have been some troubles, but I do not know of any present scandals. Mr. Burcu. What is the nature of the troubles ? Mr. VALENTINE. We have had some difficult grazing problems to settle there, and we have a very difficult irrigation problem under way. There has been a great deal o Feademental work there in getting the Indians established on their allotments and self-supporting. Mr. Burcu. Do the expenses of these troubles come out of the Indians in that case or out of the Treasury of the United States ? Mr. VaLentine. Well, I think the administrative expenses of that agency are paid out of the Indian moneys. But I would also call your attention to the fact that I believe the Blackfeet Indians feel that they have a claim against the Government of the United States which would involve the employment of an attorney. Mr. Burcu. Have they got an attorney ? Mr. VALENTINE. I think not, sir. The Cuarrman. Would it inconvenience you if we suspend here? Mr. VALENTINE. No, sir. The CuarrMaNn. I am wanted in some other places, and if there is no objection the committee will stand adjourned until 10.30 a. m. to-morrow. SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON ExpenpiTures In THE [nTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D. C., March 22, 1912. The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The following member of the committee was present: Mr. Henry George, jr. ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF MR. R. G. VALENTINE. Mr. Varenttne. Before Judge Burch begins I wish to say the Secretary has a very important matter in conference this afternoon, at which he feels he would like very much to have me present, if I ‘could be excused about a quarter of three. Mr. Burcu. That would give us an opportunity to put Mr. Ward on. / Mr. Vatentine. I hate to ask it. The Cuarrman. That will be all right. We want to accommodate ourselves to everybody’s necessities. We will find a way. Mr. Burcu. Yesterday evening we quit with the Blackfeet Res- ervation, in Montana, and I think you had described some trouble there partly. Mr. Vatentinz. I mentioned some of our problems there; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do any of them involve land? Mr. Vatentine. I mentioned the reclamation work, and I also mentioned the fact that the Indians felt they had a claim for tribal lands ceded. Mr. Burcu. How large an amount? Mr. Varentine. That is one of the things which has never been worked out in the accounting. Mr. Burcu. Is it a large amount, generally supposed ? Mr. Vatentine. I should suppose so. Mr. Burcu. I only want an outline; I do not want you to go into detail. Is there any charge they were defrauded of these lands? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of, although they feel under certain treaties, cessions, or something of that sort, they have a claim to a great deal of territory in Montana. Mr. Burcu. Against the Government ? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund? Mr. Varentine. Not to any great extent; no, sir. 2496 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2497 Mr. Burcu. How are they supported, or are they supported ? Mr. Vatentine. They have some tribal funds, but they are very largely self-supported. Mr. Burcu. Is not this in that fruit region quite extensively ad- vertised—the Blackfoot ? Mr. Vauentrye. No, sir; that is the Blackhead country, farther south. . Mr. Burcu. I call your attention to Camp McDowell, Ariz. If the chairman desires to break in on any of these matters The Cuatrman. They are matters on which I have so little infor- mation that I doubt if I can help very much. Mr. Bercu. Camp McDowell, Ariz. Mr. Varentine. That is pretty familiar to the committee, who had a good many hearings on it last summer. I do not know that I can add anything. Mr. Burcu. All right. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know that I can add anything to what is already in the record. Mr. Burcu. Here is Campo, Cal. Mr. Vatentine. That is a small territory in the very southern- most part of California. Mr. Burcu. What do they call those Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Mission Indians. Mr. Burcu. I heard some Indians sing last night in town, Are they the Tonah Indians, or what are they; do you know? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Are there such things as Tonah Indians? Mr. Vatenrine. Not that I recall. ; Mr. Burcu. Is there anything about these Campo Indians in Cali- fornia ? Mr. Vatentine. No particular problems that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Do they make claims against the Government? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they a reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. They have a little reservation there, I think—one of what we call the Mission Reservations. Mr. Burcu. Now Camp Verde, Ariz. Mr. Vatentine. That I have no personal observations of. The Cuarrman. That is the same as McDowell, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. It is under Taylor B. Gabbard, superintendent? Mr. Vatentine. What you have in mind probably is that the Verde River flows through the Camp McDowell Reservation. The Cuairman. Where is Camp Verde? Mr. Burcu. Do you know of any trouble there? Mr. Vatentine. No. Mr. Burcu. You have never heard of any? Mr, Vatenttine. No. Mr. Burcu. I will pass on, then. The Canton Insane Asylum, S. Dak.; what do you know about that? Mr. Vatentine. That is the one Indian insane asylum, and I know no pending problems there at the present time further than that there is hardly capacity enough there for the needs of the whole service. Camp Verde, Mr. Chairman, in response to your question, 2498 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. is some miles north of the Camp McDowell Reservation, on the head- waters of the Verde River. Mr. Burcu. Who supports this Canton Insane Asylum? ; Mr. Varentinez. It is supported out of Federal funds appropriated. Mr. Burcu. Not Indian funds? ; Mr. Vatentinez. No, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. Has there been any charge or claim of misuse of those funds, in any manner? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of, sir. Mr. Burcu. Ever? Mr. Vartentine. Not that I know of; not that I recall. Mr. Burcu. How much of an outlay is supposed to be necessary to reenforce it to the proper extent? Mr. Vatentine. I think $50,000 could be spent there to advantage. I am stating the thing very roughly. You see, it is very important to make insane patients not only constructively, but actually, as happy as possible. Mr. Burcu. Contonment, Okla., Byron E. White, superintendent. Mr. Vatentine. I can not give you offhand any—there are no current problems, as far as I recall, at Cantonment at the present time. There was some question recently of the efficiency of affairs there, and the superintendent resigned, if I recall. Mr. Burcu. Charges against him of undue expenditure, or any- thing of that kind? Mr. Vatentine. I think there was not of undue expenditure; just that he had not got into the right touch with his Indians—with the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Carlisle, Pa.; that is a school ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir; that is a big school up there in Penn- sylvania, which has the very notable outing system. Mr. Burcu. Can you tell me in a few words, without going too much into detail, how it comes that a school is located in Pennsyl- vania so far away from the Indians, where they have to travel such long distances to get to it, as Carlisle? How did it happen? Mr. Vatentine. Carlisle, as I stated, was originally founded on the theory that conditions on and around the reservations were so bad that the only way to save the Indians was to bring them or to bring their children entirely out of those surroundings into entirely new conditions; educate them and look to their making their living in the East. Mr. Burcu. How long ago was that? Mr. Vatentine. I think Carlisle was founded in 1879. Mr. Burcu. From your observation, has that system worked well? Mr. Vatentine. It has not worked as it was originally intended, but Carlisle has contributed notably, I think, to the advancement of the Indians, particularly through this outing system I speak of. The Cuarrman. Then it was not a part of the plan that the edu- cated Indians, after graduating, should go back to the reservations and by their influence help to elevate the reservation Indians? Mr. Vatentine. That was not, as I understand it, sir, the original plan, but that is what has happened, and in very many cases Carlisle graduates have been great—I think in the majority of cases they have gone back and in a very large number of cases have been a WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2499 distinct help to their own communities, and a large number of them are teaching in the Indian service. Mr. Burcu. Do the funds to support Carlisle come out of the gen- eral funds of the United States? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Not out of the Indians? Mr. Vatentrine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. It involves large expenditures I suppose? Mr. Vatentine. I think the expenditures are about $170,000 a year. Mr. Burcu. Carson, Nev., what is that, a reservation or school? Mr. Vauentine. That is a school. Mr. Burcu. Merely. Mr. VaLentine. It is a school merely in that particular jurisdic- tion, but it is—what I want to get on the record is, there were some scattered Indians around Carson, but it is not immediately near any reservation. Mr. Burcu. How is that supported ? Mr. Vatentine. Out of Federal funds. Mr. Burcu. Are there any troubles in connection with it? Mr. Vatentine. I recall none at the present moment. Mr. Burcu. Is the outlay large, or do you know? Mr. Vauentine. I can not recall it. Pardon me, Judge, as I understand it you do not want details. Mr. Burcu. No; just outlines. We can not go into details, and I want to find where, how troubles are, and what they are, the nature of them. Carter, Wis., what is that? Mr. Vatentrne. I could not tell you, sir. Mr. Burcu. I see it has a superintendent. Mr. VaLentine. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Is it on one of the reservations? Mr. Vatentine. It isa comparatively new superintendency, I think. Mr. Meritt tells me it is for the Winnebago Indians in Wisconsin. I had forgotten it under that name, but there are a number of Winne- bago Indians in Wisconsin that we have established a little central point for and placed a superintendent there. Mr. Burcu. Is he a superintendent of property and other matters outside of the school? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you offhand whether there is a school there or not. I think it is general matters relating to these scattered Indians. Mr. Burcu. Is that where the Winnebago Indians are—somewhere near Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, the Winnebago region—or farther away? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall that. I think there are about 400 or so of them scattered in there. They are about 50 miies from Menomonie, the nearest reservation. Mr. Burcu. From Menomonie, Wis. ? Mr. Vatentinr. The Menomonie Reservation in Wisconsin. Mr. Burcu. You know of no troubles there? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. No charges of any kind? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. 2500 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Now, Cass Lake, Minn., Benjamin Caswell, superin- tendent. mena Mr. Vatenrine. That is a part of the old Leech Lake jurisdic- tion. The general conditions of the Indians there is about as it is on the Leech Lake Reservation, and very likely, to some extent, as it is on the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Burcu. In other words undesirable? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; probably. Mr. Burcu. Is that supported by Indian funds? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is supported out of the general Chip- pewa fund. ; ; Mr. Burcu. Then what in a general way or in some details apply to White Earth would apply to Cass Lake. Mr. Vatentine. The general physical condition of the Indians and their relation to their timber would, in a general way, be a somewhat similar problem. Mr. Burcu. Is that where the Rev. Charles Wright lived, or there- abouts ? Mr. Varentine. I think so, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, Cherokee, N. C. That was a reservation or a strip of territory bought with tribal funds, was it not? Mr. Varentine. I do not recall about that, but I know the land status there is in very doubtful legal situation. Mr. Burcu. I am familiar with the Cherokees of North Carolina, near Murphy, N. C. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I am quite reasonably familiar. Mr. Vatentine. There is a good deal of timber in there, too. Mr. Burcu. My recollection is that these were Cherokees of Geor- gia, or of the South, who were separated from the band and instead of going to Oklahoma they came up there and bought territory; that is, bought land with tribal funds, and that they have had a great deal of trouble with their titles, and, in fact, a great deal of trouble generally, the Cherokees of North Carolina. The Cheyennes and Arapahoes, of Oklahoma, do you know about them? I suppose these are part and parcel of all the Oklahoma troubles, the Chey- ennes and Arapahcoes. Mr. Vautentine. To some extent, but I think they are rather lesser there from what I can learn. Of course in all these reservations the big constructive problems are in existence. I am simply outlining to you where I know the real conditions outside of those to be. Mr. Burcu. Cheyenne River, 8. Dak.? Mr. Vatentine. That is a big reservation with big grazing prob- lems, agricultural problems. Mr. Burcu. Are there charges of one kind and another and troubles in connection with the Cheyenne River Reservation ? Mr. Varentine. I do not know of any charges at the present time. Of course there is hardly a reservation in the country where there are not charges of some kind pending. Mr. Burcu. The Indians of that reservation are of what nation? Mr. VaLenTIne. Sioux. Mr. Burcu. They are one of the branches of the Sioux Nation? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they claims against the Government ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2501 Mr. Vatentine. They have certain claims of their own, I believe, and also they form a part of the general claim of the Sioux against the Government. Mr. Burcu. Is anybody representing them? Mr. Vatentine. Not at the present time, sir. Mr. {punee: Have ‘they any suits pending against the United States ? Mr. Vatentine. I know of none pending. Mr. Burcu. Do they assert rights as against the United States for recompense ? Mr. Vaentine. I understand they do. Mr. Burcu. To quite a large extent? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is the one relative to all the Sioux branches— Sioux Nation ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; it involves the old Black Hills treaty and a number of other treaties. Mr. Burcu. Are they persistent in asserting their rights or claim- ing the necessity for some sort of action on the part of the Indian Bureau and Congress and the Government generally. Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you how much the Indians them- selves have done that, but there are insistent claims. Mr. Burcu. Are they in the hands of attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of, sir—that is, the department has not, if I recall correctly, recognized any attorneys in connec- tion—— Mr. Burcu (interposing). Are there attorneys who seek to obtain recognition in connection with the Sioux Tribe? Mr. Vatentine. I think there are several. Mr. Burcu. Can you name any of them offhand? Mr. Vatentine. J would rather give you the record of the office of the applicants. Mr. Burcu. Are they Washington attorneys or foreign attor- neys—that is, local attorneys? Do you know that? — Mr. Vatentine. Both, I think—that is, if you mean by foreign attorneys—— : Mr. Burcu (interposing). I mean outside of Washington. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; outside of Washington. Mr. Burcu. Could you. without much trouble, just furnish a list ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Not at this moment, but when you come in again. I am anxious not to delay now a moment’s time. — Mr. Vatentine. Yes. Attorneys wanting to contract acith Indians, Jumes A. George, with Sioux Indians. Robert S. Person, with Sioux Indians. J. Lennox Ward, with Sioux Indians. Z. Lewis Dalby, with Sioux Indians, and also Standing Rock, separately. Thomas Sloan, with Sioux Indians. Guion Miller, with Sioux Indians. Z. Lewis Dalby, with Winnebago. Walter D. Mansfield, with Klamath. Noland & Crane, with Klamath. Harmon & Hull (Hudson, Holt & Harmon), with Cowlitz. 2502 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Kappler & Merillat. with Pawnee. ; McGowan, Serven & Mohun (Serven & Joyce), and A. GCG. Farrall, with Blackfeet, Piegan, Gros Ventre, and Assiniboines. W. H. Robeson and GC. A. Maxwell, with Santee, Blackfeet, and Fort Ber- thold. E. H. Fourt, with Shoshone. Kappler & Merillat, with Crow. 25 ; Frank Pierce and C. C. Clements, with Uintah and White River Utes. W. L. Case, with Fond du Lac. J. Lennox Ward, with Cascades. 7. Lewis Dalby, with Bad River. ik. J. Henning, with Menominee. Mr. Burcu: I see named here the Chippewas of Lake Superior, with Hen deiartirs at Baraga, Mich., opposite L’Anse. Have you been there! Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have vou had any trouble in regard to those people? Mr. Vauentixe. There have been a good many timber troubles. T recall no current troubles. ; Mr. Burcu. Do you know whether they have a reservation? Mr. Vatentixe. I do not know whether they have a reservation in that sense or whether it is allotments. Mr. Burcu. They have a church school there, do they not? Mr. Vautentine. How is that, Mr. Farr? Mr. Farr. Practically all allotted. Mr. Vatentine. That is what I thought; thank you. Mr. Burcu. They have a Catholic Church school there, do they not? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. Mr. Burcu. Do you, Mr. Farr, know about that? Mr. Farr. They have a school there, but I am not certain whether the Government offers any support toward it; it is on the reserva- tion. Mr. Burcu. I used to know the Sister in charge of that, I think. It is a Catholic institution. Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, how about that? re Vatentine. I do not think of anything particular to say about that, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there considerable timber operations up there in connection with this Coeur d’Alene or some of these Idaho Indians, carried on by Mr. Herrick or his company, of Wisconsin, this same Fred Herrick? Mr. Varentixe. I would have to look that up. Mr. Farr. May I make a suggestion? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Farr. I believe his operations out there are under the Forest Service. Mr. Burcu. They are not the Indian Forestry Service, he says. Do you have any problems in regard to these Coeur d’Alenes? Mr. Vatenrine. We have lots of problems in regard to all these people, but nothing that I think of at the present time. Mr. Burcu. Any charges? Mr. Varentine. Only in the sense that there is probably not a reservation in the country that has not charges. Mr. Burcn. Are there any reservation lands to be disposed of? Mr. Varentine. I think the Coeur d’Alene is largely allotted— what we call an open reservation. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2503 Mr. Burcu. Have they been emancipated form alienation? Mr. Vatentine. Not wholly; no, sir. Mr. Georce. What is an “open reservation ” ? Mr. Vatentine. We call a reservation open, sir, when it has been allotted and the surplus lands that are no longer held for allotment are not open to settlement. Mr. Burcu. Where it is not maintained in its absolute integrity and white people keep off it; that is, white people as owners of prop- erty keep off. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; in a general way. Mr. Georce. White Earth, in a general way or in a general sense, is an open reservation. Mr. Vatextixe. White Earth is sort of half and half; I would not call it wholly open. Mr. Grorce. What more would have to be done in the case of White Earth to make it an open reservation? Mr. Vatentine. Well, the lands that may be taken there by the Mille Lac Indians would have to be set aside and then if there were any surplus lands of any kind beyond allotment, they would have to be thrown open to settlement under some form, and the general theo- retical barrier around the reservation more or less broken down. Mr. Grorce. So that no Indian communes were left? Mr. Varentine. Yes; beyond, of course, reservation for the agency purposes and such slight things as that, Mr. Burcu. Now, Colorado River, in Parker, Ariz., is that the Yuma? Mr. VatenTIne. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. What is that? Mr. Vatentine. That is a big reservation where there is a large amount of very fine irrigable land. Mr. Burcu. Is it near Yuma? Mr. Vaentixe. It must be 70 or 80 miles north of Yuma. Mr. Burcu. Toward The Needles where the Santa Fe crosses? Mr. Vatentixe. Yes, sir; about halfway between Yuma. and The Needles. ; j Mr. Burcu. Along the Colorado River? z Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; mostly on the Arizona side. Mr. Burcu. Has that been allotted in severalty ? Mr. Varentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Held in tribal commune? Mr. Vartentrxe. Most of it. Mr. Burcu. Do you have any troubles there? Mr. Vatentrxe. We have. I can not always meet your word troubles. We have got big problems, which, of course, involves very weighty questions and great difficulties, but our big troubles there, in that sense. would be the health of the tribes and the home condition of their life. : Mr. Grorcr. Maybe Judge Burch will explain what he means by troubles. ; Mr. Burcu. Can you, in brief, outline now—state what that amounts to? Mr. Vatentine. Well, for instance, we have great difficulty in establishing the right kind of moral conditions on a reservation of this kind, where the Indians live in little movable wickiups, and we 2504 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. have found it difficult, for instance, to establish a day school there because the children going to homes that are not well established and not well kept at night—and I believe the parents themselves say it is very difficult to put proper moral restrictions around the children—so you have got a very basic problem there as affects the babies and young girls and school conditions. The way out would be to allow the lands—get the irrigation system going; establish the Indians in permanent homes; and then we could go ahead with the proper day-school and boarding-school system. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; but they would have considerable quan- tities from the sale of their surplus lands after allotment is made, because the land itself is very, very fine soil and, of course, the Colorado flowing through the reservation can be used to irrigate with. Mr. Burcu. There have been no charges made against anybody then for depredations or frauds against them ? Mr. Vauenttne. The reservation has not yet quite reached the stage where it becomes what you might call part of the spoils system. Mr. Meritt tells me there is some mining in the neighborhood, and there are also some private irrigation companies that wish to de- velop projects in connection with the reservation. Mr. Burcu. Have they been allowed any privileges yet; that is, any concessions, these irrigation or mining companies? Mr. Varentine. There was an act of Congress under which they were allowed certain privileges, and I believe they are now seeking an amendment to that act. Mr. Burcu. Is it an amendment in favor of the Indians, or an amendment in favor of the outsiders, or would you not like to judge about that? Mr. Vatentine. The question is now pending and the office is sug- gesting such amendments as, in its opinion, would be in favor of the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Is the nature of it open to mining and open to irriga- tion—the reservation ? Mr. Varentine. I was referring particularly to the irrigation project. We are seeking there, as we are in other parts of the country, for authority of law to make mining leases on executive- order reservations. This is an executive-order reservation. Mr. Burcu. When you seek to make these mining reservations, is if for the benefit of the Indians; that is, do they get a royalty or toll? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has that been done in many places? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have the funds been safely safeguarded, in your opinion, so they could not be deceived or cheated out of the royalty? Mr. Vatentine. Of course that is the attempt in every case. Mr. Burcu. Has it succeeded generally or are there charges of their being overreached ? Mr. Vatentine. In general it has succeeded. There. may be charges. I do not recall any particular cases at the moment. ~ Mr. Burcu. Here is Colville, Wash., that is near Fort Spokane? Mr. Vatenrine. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2505 Mr. Burcu. What are their troubles there? Mr. VatentIne. Well, allotment is under way there. There is a bill—there is an act already—covering the opening of the reserva- tion, which we believe should be amended to further protect the timber—the Indian timber on the reservation. There are large quantities of valuable timber; there are some, comparatively speak- ne minor reclamation projects on the reservation, and a rail- roa 2 Mr. Burcu (interposing). The railroad company attempting to drive their railroad through the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; there has been, Colville has been one of the scenes of some of the more or less famous railroad wars. Mr. Grorcz. What railroad is that? Mr. Vatentine. Well, it is in the territory of the Great Northern Railroad, and the Northern Pacific might branch up there, and also the Canadian Pacific might. Mr. Burcu. Fights between railroad companies for rights of way across the reservation ? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The courts involved and all; that is, it isin the courts? Mr. Vatentine. I think some of it is in the courts; also legisla- tion pending on that matter. Mr. Burcu. Well, that is outline enough. I notice here the Crow Reservation, of Montana. Are there any troubles there? Mr. Vatentinz. That is more or less what one might call a per- manent trouble of the Indian Office, the Crow Reservation. Mr. Burcu. A sort of hotbed of trouble? Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What does that relate to, lands, irrigation, forestry, or what? y Mr. Vatentine. Well, lands, agricultural lands, irrigable lands, grazing lands, timberlands, and mineral lands. Mr. Gzorcs. Are the Indians making trouble? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I do not know that I would want to say the Indians were making the trouble, sir; there are pretty strong fac- tions among the Indians, as I understand it, on the Crow Reserva- tion, which always leads to differences of opinion that may be per- fectly honest. Mr. Burcu. Are there any outside influences mixed up with the thing? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, there are big cattle lessees on the reser- vation, and undoubtedly there are big cattle lessees who would like to get on the reservation, so there is the stage laid for troubles. There is also the very weighty question, which concerns me most of everything about the Crow Reservation, as to the manner of handling the Indians’ tribal lands. One school advocates the allotments, a large number of new allotments to the Indians, having in view the creating of substantially the whole or the large part of the tribal lands, and another school feels that that would be merely turning the Crow Indians into real-estate dealers instead of enabling them to get started in agricultural pursuits. So there is another big room for difference of opinion. Then the Crows have some tribal claims, as I understand it, against the Government, so there is another source of trouble. 73822°—H. Rep. 1386, 62-3, vol 263 2506 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund? Mr. Va.entine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Large or small. Mr. Vatentine. Quite a large tribal fund. Mr. Burcu. And a whole lot of attorneys seeking to get in there— that is, to get contracts with them—are there not? Mr. Vatentine. I think so; yes. Mr. Burcu. Local, I mean local to the reservation, to the vicinity of the reservation or people from here. Mr. Vatentine. I think there are some Washington attorneys, and I do not know whether there are or not some local ones. Mr. Burcu. Quite a contest on in that respect? Mr. Vatentine. I think there is quite a desire on the part of a number of people to get attorneys’ contracts with the Crows. Mr. Burcu. Is it a large reservation, numerically ? Mr. Vatentine. It has a little over 2,000 Indians, I think; some- where around 2,000. Mr. Burcu. This is practically the old Custer battle ground, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. The Custer battle ground was near the Crow Agency. ee Burcu. And the lands in that vicinity are exceedingly valu- able? Mr. Vatentine. Exceedingly so; some wonderful areas of irri- gable lands. Mr. Burcu. Coal? Mr. Vatentine. J understand so—in the mountains. Mr. Burcu. Precious minerals or coarse minerals? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know about that. Mr. Burcu. Timber? ae Vatentine. A great deal of fair timber. I do not know how ood. - Mr. Burcu. Irrigable lands? Mr. Vatentine. Wonderful irrigable lands. Mr. Burcu. What river? Mr. Vatentine. The Little Big Horn River. Mr. Gzorcr. They must be very rich Indians? Mr. Vatentine. They have got a wonderful estate. Mr. Burcu. Do they not claim a large estate besides that in their reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. I think so, as I mentioned earlier. Mr. Burcu. Then there are a whole lot of matters connected with the Crows? Mr. Vatenting. It is one of the garden spots in Montana. Mr. Burcu. Crow Creek, S. Dak., that is different; or is that different? Mr. Vatentine. Those are Dakota Sioux. Mr. Burcu. Those are not Crow Indians then? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. _ Mr. Burcu. Are the Crows of the Sioux family ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. I think not. Mr. Burcu. These Crow Creek Indians are the Sioux. How are they fixed? Any trouble about them ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2507 Mr. Vauentine. Their reservation is very largely allotted, and I think there is also legislation pending in regard to what surplus lands they have. Their lands are very largely grazing lands. I do not know of any things that I should mention to you particularly at this time. Mr. Burcu. That is as to trouble? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, in this rapid survey, I may omit some very vital point. If I think of it at any future time, I shall be glad to call it to your attention. / Mr. Burcu. Or probably to the committee’s attention, or some: body in Congress. I have not anything to do with it, personally, so far as I am concerned. Mr. Georce. The committee would like to have that information. Mr. Vatenrine. I am simply afraid in listing things, I may leave out some very important point. Mr. Burcu. I did not desire to curtail the committee at all. ‘ Mr. Grorce. But the committee wants everything that is to be had, in brief, of course, but essential points. Mr. Burcu. Have these Sioux a tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. The Sioux? Mr, Burcu. Well, are these interested in that general Sioux mat: ter? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; they would be part of the general Sioux business. i Mr. Burcu. But you do not know of any insistent troubles in con- nection with them ? Mr. VaLentINneE. None that are in the front of my consciousness now. Mr. Burcu. Is there any proposition to open their reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. The reservation has been very largely allotted; there are only some 30,000 or 40,000 acres, as I recall it, of surplus land, and that is mostly cut-up land, and the edge of benches, pretty rough land—in fact, there is legislation pending in regard to that land. Mr. Burcu. To open that land to settlement? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they an attorney? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I think not. Mr. Burcu. Cushman, Wash.? Ss Mr. Varentine. That is a school for training in mechanical en: gineering and industrial work. Mr. Burcu. Supported by the United States? Mr. Vatentine. Supported chiefly out of the funds of the Puyal- lup Indians. Mr. Burcu. You know of no trouble then in connection with that school ? Mr. Vatentine. No troubles; no, sir. The school has been rap idly developing in the last few years with the ultimate view of mak- ing it a mixed school for Indians and whites. It is within the city limits of Tacoma. Mr. Burcu. Within the city limits of Tacoma, Wash. ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. ; ee Mr. Georce. That is the school that is within the city limits? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. 2508 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. It is only a school. The Digger Indians? Mr. Vatentrne. I do not think of anything particular to say about them, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there a large number of them? Mr. Vatentine. A good many scattered Indians. Mr. Grorcr. In California? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Are these the same Indians that were written about or taken into consideration by Mrs. Helen Hunt Jackson or her hus- band? Mr. Vatentine. I think she wrote about the Diggers. Mr. Burcu. You know of no particular troubles? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Fallon, Nev. ? Mr. Varentine. I think of nothing particular to say about that, sir. Mr. Burcu. Do you know what kind of Indians those are? Mr. Vatentine. No; I do not recall. Mr. Burcu. Have they a reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. We bought a little land for those Indians, I think, about a year or two ago. I will see just where it is on the map here. Mr. Burcu. Do they have a tribal fund to buy it with? Mr. Varentine. No, sir; I think there was an appropriation Mr. Burcu. By the Government out of its own funds? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Flandreau, S. Dak.?¢ Mr. Vatentine. That is a school. Mr. Burcu. A school merely ? - Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Chippewa funds? Mr. Vatentine. That is a Sioux school, supported by Federal appropriations. Mr. Burcu. Do you have any trouble about it? Mr. Vatentine. I think there is nothing special to say about that, except we have been in some doubt about the need for continuing it for very many years more. - Mr. Burcu. Now comes the Flathead, of Montana? Mr. Vatentine. There is another Garden of Eden, with all the similarity to the Garden of Eden. The Cuairman. At what stage in the history of the garden, before or after the trouble began ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, both, sir. Mr. Burcu. More trouble coming? Mr. Vatenrine. More coming and some expense. Mr. Burcu. Is this the region so enormously advertised as fruit- raising land? Mr. Vatentine. It is a wonderful red-apple country. Mr. Burcu. And the land is very much sought after? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have there been allotments? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have there been scandals in connection with the procuring of the lands from the Indians? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2509 Mr. Vatentine. I recall no scandals. You see substantially no land was bought from the Indians except inherited lands. Mr. Burcu. How did the territory become open to sale? Mr. Vatentine. It is not, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are they seeking to open it? Mr. George. I want to ask which reservation this is. Mr. Vatentine. The Flathead, in Montana. There is an act under which the reservation is to be opened, but it has not been opened. I am incorrect. Part of it is opened to settlement. Mr. Burcu. Under what kind of a law? Mr. Vatentine. Well, an act of Congress; it is along the lines of the general opening acts which Congress has passed in late years. Mr. Burcu. Is it purely a congressional enactment; that is, under purely congressional enactment ? Mr. Vatentrine. I do not think I quite understand you, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has there been special legislation—a special act prescribing the form in which it should be opened ? Mr. Vatentine. There is a special act for this particular reserva- tion. Mr. Burcu. What did they do—sell the lands? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall the exact terms of the act, but it follows the general line of allotment made, providing for appraise- ment of lands. They are also asking here, as I mentioned, for an amendment to that opening act, which will further protect the Indians’ timber. You see some of these opening acts passed before the conservation policy became well established, and we have been seeking amendments to bring in the most thorough kind of con- servation. Mr. Burcu. Is any portion of that country about to become, by your recommendation, the occasion for large timber-interest cases against the Anaconda Coast Mining Co., and those people in Montana? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any such. Mr. Burcu. A special attorney of ours has just gone—one of my associates. Mr. Vauentine. I do not recall any such on the reservation. Of course there are big irrigation projects, and irrigation. Mr. Burcu. Private or Government ? Mr. Vatentine. Governmental, under the Reclamation Service. Mr. Burcu. How did they get into the Indian territory? Mr. Vatentine. They went in under the authority of the Secre- tary of the Interior to irrigate these lands. Mr. Burcu. For whose benefit; the Indians’? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then it is a joint—— _ Mr. VatentINeE (interposing). The reason I was smiling at Mr. Meritt and he was smiling at me was there has been a good deal of question about some of these big projects in the North, as to their absolute feasibility as Indian projects. ; Mr. Burcu. The big projects—by those you mean projects of the Reclamation Service? : Mr. Vauentine. I did not mean to criticize the Reclamation Service. 2510 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Well, irrigation ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Whether they were for the benefit of the Indians or whether they were for the benefit of somebody else, or a matter of pride, or what? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, the Indians in the Southwest have been used to irrigation themselves. The Indians in the North are not by nature irrigation wise, so to speak. Mr. Burcu. Who has advocated these irrigation projects mainly, what source have they emanated from, the Reclamation Service or interested parties? ; Mr. Vauentine. I think they have emanated very largely from the Indian Office. Mr. Burcu. Your own service? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. ' Mr. Grorcr. In your time? 2 Mr. Vatentrne. No; most of them antedate me, sir. Mr. Burcn. In carrying out, for instance, this project, do they take reclamation funds to do it with, or do they take Indian funds to do it. with? Mr. Vatentinr. On most of these projects Federal funds are taken, made later reimbursable out of Indian funds, out of ‘the sale of Indian lands. Mr. Burcu. Did the Indians consent to that? - Mr. Vatentrne. I do not know whether the Indians consented to that in terms or not. Mr. Burcu. Whose influence was it worked through ? Mr. Vatentine. The theory of it, of course, is that the projects will so vastly increase the value of the land that it is a business proposition from the point of view of the Indians. : Mr. Burcu. You say that is to be paid for originally by the Reclamation Service, but ultimately—— Mr. Vatentrine (interposing). No, sir; paid for out of appropria- tion made by Congress for this particular purpose, and made reim- bursable out of future Indian funds. ' Mr. Burcu. Who does it? Mr. Vatentine. Congress. Mr. Burcu. Who carries on the work doing it; who performs the work of building the Mr. Vatentine (interposing). The Reclamation Service. Mr. Burcu. Under the auspices of the Reclamation Service? Mr. Vatentinr. Of course, it is done by the Secretary of the Interior, and the Secretary of the Interior, of course, can assign work either to the Reclamation Service or to the Indian Office, particu- larly the Reclamation Service. : Mr. Burcu. In this instance it is to the Reclamation Service? ; Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How much was the outlay; do you remember? Mr. Vatentine. The whole project probably will cost about $4,000,000. Mr. Burcu. How can the Indians pay for it; how can they ever pay $4,000,000? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2511 Mr. Vatentine. They have very valuable timber lands and very oe agricultural lands outside of their allotments; grazing lands also. Mr. Burcu. The point that I want to get at is this particular case. It seems to me to merit some attention. The point is whether these Indians have any assent or are allowed to express any opinion as to whether such projects as this, practically levying a mortgage upon their lands, is done by their wish or with their assent? : Mr. Vatentine. As far as I recall that, matters of this kind have not been put before the Indians themselves. Mr. Burcu. They have the effect then to require absolutely, some- time or other, that some one else besides the Indians shall purchase lands to pay back that $4,000,000, or that the lands shall be sold, tim- ber shall be sold, for the supposed benefit of the Indians to pay for this project. Now, how are the Indians going to profit any by it? Mr. Vauentine. Well, the Indians have the value of their allot- ments increased from a few dollars an acre, which the land is worth without irrigation, to, in some cases, hundreds of dollars an acre under irrigation. Mr. Burcu. Suppose they can not manage it as a business propo- sition; in other words, suppose they can not pay this tax? Mr, Vatentine. It is made reimbursable only out of funds from the sale of ceded lands and tribal funds, and if they do not have the tribal funds they can not reimburse.: Mr. Burcu. Might not that be made the pretext or the excuse, or, : rill put it more mildly, the reason for selling a whole lot of their ands? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, it is just a business proposition, whether by selling a part of the land the other part can be made more valuable. The theory of this proposition is, by putting water on these lands they are made so very much more valuable, the In- dians could not only afford but it is desirable they should sell the surplus lands for this purpose. Mr. Burcu. Going back to the Crow Reservation, is it not claimed by some that in this Crow Reservation their lands, or the money arising from their land, was devoted to the purpose of reclamation of irrigation propositions by which private interests were enhanced or were the gainers, and that the Indians’ lands were taken away from them to pay for the irrigation—in other words, they lost the lands, and the irrigation was made for the benefit of private interests or largely for private interests—was that not charged? __ Mr. Vatentine. I think I have heard some such allegation. Mr. Georcr. Supposing you take the case in this way: That irri- gation works are put in supposedly to improve the lands? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Grorcr. And then we have the spectacle of White Earth re- peated. The Indian is separated from his land. What boots it that the Government goes in and puts on these big things, these big operations ? : Mr. Varenttne. In a case like that, sir, it boots nothing to the Indian. Mr. Grorcr. Well, have you that sort of problem before you among the Flatheads? 2512 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Varentrine. I do not think so, sir. Mr. Grorcer. There is no problem of that sort? Mr. Vatentine. Well, of course that might be a danger before us, but it would be assuming a great deal of very bad administration. Mr. Grorce. Well, I am assuming that human nature operates the same way everywhere. We are talking now about the Flat- heads, I assume. Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorer. I notice on the map here that part of this reserva- tion is white, which I understand to mean it has become an open reservation, the eastern portion ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Well, now, the course of things to make the whole thing white; that is, the white man is going in one way or another to get in there. Now, then, here come these irrigation works to irri- gate the land and make $3 land worth $100 an acre, or something of that sort, at any rate going to make the land irrigable; put water on it, and these works are to be paid for out of Indian lands; that eliminates some of the land? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Or timber, he said. Mr. Grores. Or timber. There remains land, then it only re- mains for the passage of an act which shall allow the Indians; that is, naturally give to each Indian his portion of land, then an act to allow the Indians to give up their lands, to part with their lands, to sell their lands, to alienate their lands, it looks tomeas though that is a situation very much like the situation in White Earth, and I do not understand that human nature in Montana is any better than it is in Minneapolis and Minnesota, and if this is not a White Earth situation what is it? It has not arrived yet, perhaps, but I want to know whether you apprehend any such difficulty as that, human nature being the same in both States? Mr. Vatentrine. I feel this way, Mr. George. It seems to me, in light of examples like the White Earth, it should be more difficult to get a blanket act through, such as through the White Earth Res- ervation. On the other hand, I appreciate the danger. Mr. Burcu. In other words, you are trusting to Congress? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely. Mr. Gzorcr. Do you mean to arouse Congress now with the White Earth in view, or have any steps toward such a result been taken? Has the bureau had to fight any moves toward the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; not yet. But what I wanted to add to the statement was, that, in the light of the move on foot to take away the district agents in the Five Civilized Tribes, it would seem that the fearful spectacle of White Earth had not fully come home to the people of the country. Mr. Grorex. You apprehend, at present, no immediate danger to the Flatheads? Mr. VALENTINE. ‘T think not, sir, for the reason that the adminis- trative machinery has been installed by act of Congress by which the removal of restrictions takes place in individual cases under ad- ministrative machinery, and not by this blanket amendment which turns hundreds and thousands of them loose, and yet I can not look WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2513 forward with any very great hope, in the light of the Five Civilized Tribes’ situation. Mr. Grorcr. How many people are there among the Flat Heads— how many Indians? Mr. Vatentine. A little over 2,000 Indians. Mr. Gerorcr. What kind of land was opened to the white settle- ment there? Mr. Vauentrne. I do not know the precise character of that opened land. Mr. Meritt tells me some irrigable land was opened. Mr. Grorcr. Where does the water come from, the lake? Mr. Vaventinr. Water comes from several mountain streams and from the Coeur d’Alene River, I believe. Mr. Gzorce. Where is the projected water to come from—the water from the projected works? Mr. Vatentine. There are wonderful water supplies on the reser- vation, and there is a tremendously valuable water power on the reservation also. Mr. Grorce. Was the opening of the eastern part of that reserva- tion quite satisfactory to the Indian Bureau? Mr. Varentrine. I should have to look into that. Mr. Georcr. You do not remember any scandal in connection with the matter ? . Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any. Mr. Georcr. I know nothing, and I am merely asking for in- formation. Mr. Vatentine. I would be glad, of course, to look up any of these points in detail for the committee. Mr. Georcz. It would appear to me that a part, a fourth or a fifth of this reservation having passed into the white domain, the rest will follow; therefore it would appear to me to be a natural conclusion that, if these water operations are to be carried forward, they are ultimately going to be for the white man rather than for the red man. Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Meritt has just reminded me of a memoran- dum he wrote on this subject, which I would like to submit to this committee. Mr. Georce. Is it brief? Mr. Merrrr. It is three or four pages. Mr. Grorcr. What is the point of this? ; Mr. Merirr. It is giving information regarding this irrigation project and the method of financing it and the way it should be financed. : Mr. Georcr. I do not know whether we want that. do we? Mr. Burcu. If you will allow me a word? Mr. Georce. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. I was about to ask Mr. Valentine, and will do so with the consent of the committee, whether any study is made at the be- ginning of these things—these operations—any provisional or antici- patory study and legislation recommended in connection with the beginning far reaching enough in character to conserve—that is the popular phrase, I believe, of later years—the interests of the Indians in these lands, so that if anything comes out of the proposition as a business proposition it goes to the people that it belongs to, viz, the Indian. It strikes me that after the stuff is all gone that it is idle 2514 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. to be engaged in the work of locking doors. I have been engaged in that work now for about 12 years for the Department of Justice, locking doors after the animals have been largely stolen, and it strikes me that coincident with the anticipation of the uplift, or up- lifting, the work there should be just such a study as this which Mr. Meritt apparently may have made—perhaps made too late, maybe; but if there is anything there I would like to have it. Mr. Grorce. If that is a description of mere irrigation works I do not suppose it would be relevant to this matter, but if it is something that would show the policy of the bureau or would indicate its policy in respect to these problems, why I suppose that would be quite relevant. How is that? ; Mr. Vatentine. I thought, sir, it would throw some light on the policy in respect to these problems. Mr. Georce. It is a small matter anyway. Mr. Vatentine. He has not it here. Mr. Gzorce. Will you bring it? Mr. Mertrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Gerorcr. Submit it to the chairman, please, and it could go right in here, if you could have it this afternoon, at this point. Memorandum for the Commissioner. JANUARY 12, 1912. In compliance with your request for a memorandum on the Wlathead irriga- tion project, you are advised that the records show that in 1907 an agreement was perfected whereby the Reclamation Service was authorized to make inves- tigations, surveys, development of plans, and construction of irrigation works on certain Indian reservations, and under this agreement the Reclamation Service made a report on the feasibility of an irrigation project on the Flathead Indian Reservation. Congress, in the Indian appropriation act of March 3, 1909 (35 Stat L., 795), authorized the construction of an irrigation system on the Flathead Reserva- tion and appropriated $250,000 therefor, and directed that the cost of the entire work should be reimbursed from the proceeds of the sale of the lands and timber within said Flathead Reservation. Under the act of April 23, 1904 (33 Stat. L., 302), there has been allotted to 2,425 Indians 228,146 acres. : There has been appropriated for the Flathead irrigation project $950,000, as follows: Par Date ap- Limit. Act. proved. Amount. 1910 Permanent Do.... Do.... 35 Stat., 795...| Mar. 3,1909 | — $250. 000 ‘| Public, 114,9..| Apr. 4,1910 250, 000 ..| 35 Stat., 83....| Apr. 30,1908 50, 000 :| Public, 454....| Mar. 3, 1911 400, 000 Of this amount, $506,926.01 had been expended up to June 30, 1911. ‘The irrigable area of the Flathead irrigation project is estimated at 150,000 acres. It.is estimated by the Reclamation Service that it would require $3,781,260.72 to complete the project as now planned. It is estimated that it will cost about $80 per acre to irrigate the land in question. When the project is completed, as planned, it will irrigate about 75,000 acres of Indian land and 75,000 acres of land under the control of white settlers. ; The reclamation record for November, 1911, shows the following status of the work ou the Flathead project. Jocko division, 78.7 per cent completed; Mission division, 8.9 per cent com- pleted; Pablo division, 22.9 per cent completed; Polson division, 9.4 per cent completed; Post division, 29.6 per cent completed. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2515 It will be seen from the figures herein given that the Flathead project can hardly be called an exclusiveiy Indian project, but is more in the nature of a quasi public project, as about one-half of the lands that will be irrigated under this project belong to white settlers. According to estimates of the Reclamation Service it will require nearly $3,000,000 to be further appropriated by Congress tc complete this project, the money appropriated to be reimbursable out of the proceeds of the sale of land and timber of the Flathead Indians. I wish to call your attention to the fact that under the proposed arrangement the property of the Indians is required to be held as security for the reimburse ment of appropriations made by Congress to construct the Flathead irrigation project, which will benefit the white settlers as much as it will benefit the Indians, and the project when completed will irrigate as much land in the ownership of white settlers as allotted to the Indians. In view of this fact, I want to suggest the advisability of Congress making direct appropriations for the construction of this project as a regular irrigation project under the super- vision of the Reclamation Service, rather than an Indian irrigation project, the Indians to pay their proportionate share of the cost per acre for irrigation, and the money heretofore appropriated by Congress and made reimbursable by the Indians could be considered as part payment of the cost of the irrigation of the Indians’ lands. This is offered merely as a suggestion without full knowledge of all the facts and without claiming any knowledge regarding the engineering problems. I would also suggest that, in view of the conditions that have arisen in con- nection with irrigation matters on the Pima and Yakima Indian Reservations, a very careful investigation by a representative of the Indian Bureau should be made of the entire work so far done on the Flathead irrigation project by the Reclamation Service. In connection with this matter I might add that there is an item in the esti- mates for the Indian appropriation bill for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1913, for an appropriation of $250,000 for continuing the construction of the irriga- tion system on the Flathead Indian Reservation. Very respectfully, E. B. Meritt, Law Clerk. Mr. Vatentrne. In answer to your question, Judge, that is pre- cisely the thing that I am trying to get the equipment, the force, to do with regard to all these reservations. We have not the equipment at present, but there should be a study made of every reservation before anything—any legislation of any kind—affects it, either as to allotment or as to opening, to find out what is necessary for that particular reservation to insure the Indians’ having a firm economic and social foundation on which to build. For that reason I have been opposed to several opening acts now pending before Congress, because I felt we had not made such an industrial and social study. In other words, there ought to be a Pittsburg survey about every reservation before another step is taken in regard to any of them. Mr. Burcu. In other words, you advocate a provisional and antici- patory action of some comprehensive body or official before anything more is done? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now,-in opening these reservations, is it not the common experience that the opening is not done at the instance of the Indians, unless the Indians have been incited by outside parties to act? Mr. Vatentrxe. I think it is fair to say that the general pressure for the opening of Indian reservations comes from the white com- munities surrounding the reservation. ; Mr. Burcu. I will go on now. Fond du Lac, Minn. That is the band up just east of Duluth there? Mr. Vatentine. Just west. 2516 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. They are part of the Minnesota Indians, are they not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. Burcu. Chippewa ? Mr. Vatentine. I think so. Mr. Burcu. The same general conditions as at Leech Lake, or similar ? Mr. Vauentine. In a general way similar. Of course, you under- stand that on none of these other reservations have we the same legislation as in the act of 1906 and 1907, but the general situation is similar. It is a timber and an allotted timber proposition, which T think is a very bad thing. Mr. Burcu. Can you state to me whether or not all these reserva- tions, outside of White Earth and Red Lake in Minnesota, are not what you might call open reservations; that is, they are part of the ceded land under the act of 1889—the Nelson Act? The Nelson Act closed out all these reservations, as reservations, outside of Red Lake and White Earth, did it not? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is correct. Mr. Burcu. Then they are simply allotments which the Indians selected themselves there under the Nelson Act? Mr. Vatentine. That is the truth as to the bulk of the lands. Mr. Burcu. In that sense no longer a reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. In that sense. Mr. Burcu. You have merely a band of Indians there? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; a band or bands. Mr. Burcu. And under the same general condition of those that afflict Leech Lake? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Cass Lake, Mille Lac? Mr. Varentine. Ballclub, Bena, and all those places. Mr. Burcu. And all those reservations outside of Red Lake and White Earth, covered by the Nelson Act. ~Mr. Vaventine. I think Boise Fort is still more or less closed. Mr. Burcu. I will go on to Fort Apache, Ariz. Mr. Vatentine. Fort Apache is the northern half of the old White Mountain Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Where is that located ? Mr. Varentine. It is located just where the high plateau of north- ee 000 feet high—breaks off into the south to the lower ands. Mr. Burcu. North of the Santa Fe Railroad ? Mr. Varentine. It is south about 90 miles from Holbrook. Mr. Burcu. I guess I will have to study a little geography. That ae BOL, then, include the territory along the Gila River about White iver ? Mr. Vatentine. The San Carlos Reservation, which is the south- ern part of the Old White Mountain Reservation, is along the Gila River. You see, this is divided into two parts. This is the old White Mountain, to the north part Fort Apache, and the south part the San Carlos Reservation. Mr. Burcu. This committee has already examined that matter, the matter relating to Fort Apache and the Pima. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9517 Mr. Vatentine. No; the Pima is another proposition. That is down to the southwest. Mr. Burcu. Then the Fort Apache has nothing to do with. the Roosevelt Dam or the San Carlos Gila Dam project? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; except in the sense that some of the water is tributary to the Roosevelt Dam coming onto the Fort Apache Reservation. Mr. Burcu. What are these people, Apaches? Mr. Vatentine. They are Apaches; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they an open or a closed reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. They are both unallotted reservations: closed. Mr. Burcu. You say they have no tribal fund? Mr. VaLentiIne. Except they may have some from their grazing basis; no substantial fund. You see, they have vast quantities of valuable timber, which will bring them in tribal funds. Mr. Burcu. How Jarge an amount of timber is it supposed they have? Mr. Vatentine. They have a very large amount. I do not recall the figures. Mr. Burcu. Have attempts been made to secure it? Mr. Vatentine. Some of it has been sold, under the general authority of the Interior Department. It has not been sold recently. Mr. Burcu. How large a volume is there of it? Mr. Varentine. I have forgotten now the exact amount of the sale. Mr. Burcu. Was it sold at the request of the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. Outside parties wanted to purchase it? Mr. Vatentine. There were requests to purchase, and the depart- ment put it up to bidding. Mr. Burcu. Was it sold by sealed bid? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Bank scale? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall the precise terms; I can give you the contract. Mr. Burcu. How vast, in a general way, is this amount of timber on the Fort Apache Reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. Well, it is some of the most valuable timber in the Southwest. I can give you the estimated number of feet. Mr. ‘Burcu. If you please, in a general way. : Mr. Vatenrine. The total holdings of the Indians, roughly, in timber probably amount to 10,000,000 acres of timberland, valued at about $100,000,000. I am speaking of Indians all over the country. : Mr. Burcu. No; I mean this. 2 Mr. Vatentine. But I mean the general, and this is one of the most valuable bunches in that total amount. Mr. Burcu. How many of these Indians are there; do you know? Mr. Vauentine. There are about 2.300 or 2,400, if I recall cor- rectly. Mr. Burcu, Would you say there is $10,000,000 worth of timber there? 2518 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Hardly as much as that. Mr. Burcu. Five million dollars? Mr. Vatentine. There is probably several million. Mr. Burcu. How large is the amount of sales that have been con- tracted by the Interior Department for that? Mr. Varentine. I could not give you that from memory. Mr. Burcu. Does it embrace nearly the whole of it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcy. Who bought it? Mr. Vaxentine. I do not recall that. Mr. Burcu. What interests ? Mr. Vatentrne. I am sorry to be so ignorant, but you see there is such a vast number of these things that I simply do not try to store them in my mind. ; Mr. Burcu. I suppose the proper investigation was taken before the sale? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think they made very careful study of the situation. The Forest. Service are also selling some timber adjoining. and the sale was made more or less in conjunction with them. Mr. Burcu. What is the excuse, or what is the reason given for the selling—to get funds for the Indians or to preserve the timber? Mr. Vatentine. Both. You see, until about a couple of years ago an enormous amount of this timber all through the Southwest and other parts of the country was going to waste. Mr. Burcu. Bugs, insects? My. Varentine. Insects, bugs, fire, overripeness, because there was no authority of law under which the department could make sales under conservation ‘principles. Now a law has finally, after many years of effort, been passed which prevents that enormous waste. When timber has been properly cut out the danger from fire is greatly decreased. Mr. Burcu. What becomes of the money ? Mr. Vatentine. The money goes to the credit of the Indians. Mr. Burcu. The same proposition—goes into the Treasury of the United States and stays there. Does it stay there generally? Mr. Vatentrine. In some cases it does, and some it does not. Mr. Burcu. It does until interested parties get busy to get it out of there, I suppose? . Mr. Varentine. Well, some of those questions would lead me into rather broad assents; but all the money that comes from reser- vations, either the sale of timber or grazing leases, or work of tribal sources, generally, is what we call “Indian moneys ”—that is, the legal whole designation of it is: “Indian Moneys, Proceeds of Labor,” and those moneys are available for administrative purposes and commissions of health, and schools on the reservation. Mr. Burcu. Now, is there any regular board in the Indian service that takes up these questions and makes studies of them? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I established a board about a year and a half ago. Mr. Burcu. What does that board consist of ? Mr. Vatentine. We call it the “board of apportionment.” Mr. Burcu. I mean, what men? What personnel? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2519 Mr. Vatentine. Supervisor Peairs, superintendent of school service. Mr. Burcu. Is he a timber man in any sense? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; Mr. Davis, who is one of our industrial supervisors. Mr. Burcu. The one now at Uintah? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. He is a school-teacher, too? Mr. Vatentine. No; industrial supervisor. Mr. Burcu. He used to be a school-teacher ? Mr. VaLenTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That was his business? Mr. Vatentine. It was; like so many eminent men. Mr. Burcu. I do not mean me—I never was. Mr. Vatenting. The board meets very shortly now; as soon as we know what Congress gives us, the board meets and makes a study of all these reservations, and appropriates sums available to meet the needs of the present year. Mr. Burcu. Who else is on the board? Mr. Vatentine. No one else at present. I shall have to appoint some one else. Mr. Burcu. Really, it consists, at present, of one school-teacher and one industrial teacher, but men really with school experience instead of timber experience? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think it is quite fair to draw that infer- ence. Mr. Burcu. Have they had timber experience since they taught school ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know about that; but to consider them as school-teachers, they are both pretty good, broad-gauge men. Mr. Burcu. I will say educators. Mr. Varenrine. That is unfair, too, in one sense, not for Mr. Peairs, but, as I say, Mr. Davis, is a man who has been interested for years in industrial matters—farming. Mr. Burcu. May I put it publicists? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is wrong, too. Mr. Burcu. I guess I will abandon the subject, but there is not any timber man on the board. Mr. Vatentine. This board meets in the Indian Office, and all the knowledge that we possess is at its service in making any study of any practical situation. Now, this board would call before it the man who had charge of the Indian timber work, and call before it the man who had charge of Indian irrigation work, and call before it the man who had charge of the medical service, and so on. Mr. Burcu. I am afraid I am taking up too much time, unless the committee wants to ask some questions along this line. The Cuarrman. The information you are putting in the record will do somebody some good sometime. ; Mr. Burcu. That is a very scant compliment to me, the investi- gator, Mr. Chairman. . Mr. Grorcs. Well, it is very interesting. The Cuarrman. That may be a very important statement. Mr. Burcu. Which statement? Mr. Grorcz. The chairman’s statement. 2520 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. I used to own a sawmill; that is why I am interested. Mr. Vatentine. Did you ever teach school, Judge? Mr. Burcu. I never did; I never got a chance. In that respect my education was neglected. Fort Belknap, Mont.,—what is that, and where is it? Mr. Vatentine. That is on the Milk River. Mr. Burcu. That is part of the Milk River? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Above Havre, somewhere? “Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir; Havre is right near it. Mr. Burcu. What is it, timber or prairie? Mr. Vatentrne. Some timber, largely grazing land, and there is valuable irrigable land both in the southern part and in the northern part of the reservation. Mr. Burcu. Is it on that Milk River irrigation business? Mr. Vatentine. It is not part of that general Milk River project. The Indians have a project of their own there. Mr. Burcu. Does it come out of St. Mary’s Lake and Milk River? Mr. Vatentine. I think so; I think it is connected with it. I have never been there. Mr. Burcu. I mean the water. Mr. Vatentrine. I understand; I do not recali just offhand the physical geography of the situation. Mr. Burcu. Have they any tribal funds? Mr. Vaventine. I think not; sir. They may have some small funds from grazing. Mr. Burcu. Has the reservation been opened ? Mr. VaLentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. It is strictly a tribal affair. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. ‘ a Burcu. How are the Indians supported? By their grazing und ? Mr. Vatentine. Partly by that and then they have this irrigable land along the ‘northern part of the reservation where they have been doing, I understand, a good deal of farming. Mr. Burcu. Themselves? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. No charges of a scandalous nature connected with it! Mr. Vauentrnz. I do not recall any at the present time, excepting this—one of the supervisors, who has been out there, reports very bad conditions and suffering among the Indians, and is now on his way to Washington to make a report. Mr. Burcu. I draw the conclusion from that, then, that their irri- gation proposition has not gone into effect—that is, they have not got water turned on. , Mr. Vatentine. Yes; they have been farming there sometime, but you will remember last summer was a very dry summer all over the United States and the conditions have been peculiarly bad. Mr. Burcu. It was year before last it was so dry I thought? Mr. Vatentine. Perhaps it was. Mr. Burcu. And last year probably led up to it? Mr. Vatentine. At any rate, the conditions, as reported to me, are of actual suffering on the part of the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Here is Fort Berthold, N. Dak. Is that Sioux? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2521 Mr. Vatentine. I think Gros Ventres, Bloods, and Piegans—I think I have got that mixed up with another. My mind worked back to Fort Belknap. Fort Berthold has Arickaras, Gros Ventres, and Mandan. Mr. Burcu. Have they any funds? Mr. Vatentine. They may have some from the grazing. Mr. Burcu. Have they any valuable interests? Mr. VatentiIne. They have valuable grazing lands and very valu- able allotted lands. Mr. Burcu. They have allotments then in severalty ? Mr. Vatentine. I think the allotments there have been largely completed. Mr. Burcu. Have their other lands been opened ? Mr. Vauentine. There is an opening act passed which some amendments are being sought for, which would lead to the opening of the reservation soon. Mr. Burcu. Do they get anything out of it—for instance people take these claims and have to pay so much an acre. Mr. Vatentine. Do you mean the grazing? Mr. Burcu. When they open a reservation, people draw lots and get lands; do they have to pay money ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall the specific provision under this act, but they differ in different acts. The land is appraised at a certain value here and the person who takes it has to pay that value. Mr. Burcn. And that goes to the common tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. In the Treasury ? Mr. Vatentrine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Not separated, not segregated or divided up among the Indians, but goes into the Treausry. Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What do these Treasury funds bear in the way of interest ? Mr. Vatentine. They bear 4 or 5 per cent, chiefly. Mr. Burcu. What is done with it; does it accumulate or go to the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. It is different in different cases. Sometimes, under treaty provisions, it is paid out to the Indians; in other cases it accumulates. Mr. Burcu. Do you pay annuities out of it in such cases gen- erally ? Mr. VaLentIne. Yes, sir; sometimes. Mr. Grorcr. Where is that money put that it earns 4 or 5 per cent ? Mr. Vatentine. When it is allowed to accumulate it stays in the Treasury, as I understand it, and it increases the fund. Mr. Gerorcr. Does the Goverment allow that interest itself? Mr. Varentine. I think so; yes. Mr. Gzorce. Does the Government give that interest? Mr. Vauenrrne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Where it accumulates does the Government pay simple or compound interest; that is, with yearly rests, compounded with yearly rests in stating the account with the Indians? 78822°--H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 264 2522 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. My impression is that in most cases the interest fund is kept in a separate account and does not compound. Mr. Burcu. Then they only get the simple interest? Mr. Vatentine. That is my impression. I do not recall any cases where it compounds. Mr. Burcu. Fort Bidwell, Cal., do you know anything about that? Mr. Vatentrne. I know something about it, but do not think of anything particular. Mr. Burcu. Is it a reservation or a school? Mr. Vatentine. It is a school. Mr. Burcu. No valuable interest? Mr. Vatentine. No; I do not know of any. Mr. Burcu. No tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I recall. Mr. Burcu. What kind of Indians are they? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, they may be Piutes there up in that country. Mr. Georcr. What country? Mr. Vatentins. What they call the Piute country. Mr. Grorcr. Whieh part is that? Mr. Vauentine. The Piutes extend over northern California and Nevada, on through there. Mr. Burcu. Then there is nothing special about Fort Bidwell? Mr. Varentine. I think of nothing, sir. Mr. Burcu. The next is Fort Hall, Idaho? Mr. Vatentine. That is a very important place with important irrigation projects. Mr. Burcu. The land has been allotted in severalty ? Mr. VaLentTINne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are the lands that have been allotted in severalty the lands that are affected by the irrigation ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has the irrigation been started ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has it been completed ? Mr. Vatentine. Very largely so. Mr. Burcu. By the Indian Service or by the Reclamation Service? Mr. Vatentine. That is done by the Indian Service, under act of Congress. Burcu. Does it in any way put any claim on the Indians’ ands? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so; no. Mr. Burcu. Was it done out of their tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Was it done by the Government with its funds? Mr. Vatentrine. I think that was a Federal appropriation, and I think not reimbursable. Mr. Burcu. By the Indian? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. So there is no danger of their being ill-affected by it? Mr. Vatentine. No. > Mr. Grorce. You say not reimbursable? Mr. Vatentine. That is my recollection, sir; but there are some very complicated questions in connection with the work that has been done there in the past. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2523 Mr. Burcu. In what general way? Mr. Vatentine. Well, one thing that comes to my mind is the possibility of the Indians losing some very valuable bottom grazing lands for a reservoir site in connection with a project that is not wholly Indian. Mr. Burcu. A private enterprise? Mr. Vatentine. I do not remember whether it is a private enter- prise or whether it is a part of the enterprise entered into under this act. I think it is a private enterprise. Mr. Burcu. Have the Indians an attorney? Mr. Vatentine. I think not, sir. Me, Burcu. Who is safeguarding their interest—your depart- ment? Mr. Vatentine. Weare trying to. Mr. Burcu. Is there legislation pending before Congress in the interest of the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think there is anything pending; this is the project that is rather generally known, I think, in the Indian countries, as what is called a white man’s project under an Indian reservation. Mr. Grorcr. Excuse me; I was not following. What is this? Mr. Burcu. Fort Hall, Idaho—a valuable irrigation project; he says a white man’s project. Mr. Gzorcz. What do they mean by a white man’s project? That he is going to get all the benefit? Mr. Vatentine. No; that this general project—I am not saying there is any objection to it provided it is not reimbursable out of Indian funds, but the general project had more reference to the sur- rounding white lands than it did to the Indian reservation. Mr. Burcu. Does it take away water that might irrigate Indian reservations ? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you offhand as to that. I would have to refresh my memory from the map. : Mr. Burcu. Is there anybody who makes a study of that sort of thing? I assume you can not know it all. Do you have any sort of board that makes a study in advance of that? Mr. Vatentine. This board of which I spoke is simply supposed to be a business board, but any question of this sort would be brought before it. The head of our irrigation service would be before it, just as when a timber proposition was before it, the head of the timber board would be before it. Mr. Burcu. Who does the board consist of? Mr. Vatentine. This is the same board I mentioned awhile ago. Mr. Burcu. Have they any irrigation experience in particular? Mr. Varentine. They are chosen because they are supposed to have some common sense and judgment. Mr. Burcu. How would the Indians’ interest then be ill-affected if it was a white man’s plan? Mr. Extiorr. I did not say it was ill-affected; I simply said I would have to refresh my memory as to the exact relation—what the Indians get from this project, and what the white men get from it. Mr. Burcu. They. propose to use the Indian lands in part and their own lands in part—that is, outside lands in part. 9524 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION: Mr. Exxiorr. And the water goes on to both. Mr. Burcu. The water from this will go on to both? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. Mr. Grorcr. But you are not clear that the use of that water on white men’s land would not deprive the Indians subsequently of any water that would be necessary on their land? Mr. Exxiorr. I am not clear at present either one way or the other. Mr. Georcr. To make myself clear of understanding about what you said before as to the irrigation authorities, who have you in your bureau that has information about irrigation matters? Mr. Vatentine. Just at present, as you will recall, we have no chief engineer. He resigned, and we are holding the civil-service test to choose his successor; so that the man in tlge office who is in charge of the work is Mr. Holt, and the man who is in acting charge in the field is Mr. Granville. Mr. Georce. Who is the man who resigned? Mr. Vatentine. Mr. W. H. Coe. Mr. Georce. He was the head man of all that work? Mr. Vaventine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I suppose you would list that up as a matter that needed looking after in your mind, anyway, or in some manner as a matter that needed to be watched ? Mr. Vatentinr. Yes; something we have to keep studying and, as I mentioned the fact of these bottoms and the way they would be affected by the reservoir, is something that is now under considera- tion in the office. Mr. Burcu. Fort Lapwai, Lapwai, Idaho; what about that? Is that a school? Mr. Vatentine. That is a school and a reservation. That is one of the three where we have one of our senatorial—the chief thing | think of there is complaints from the Indians in regard to their indi- vidual Indian moneys. They feel we are not free enough with them in letting them have their moneys, I believe. Mr. Burcu. Have they a large amount? Mr. Vatentine. Some of them have quite substantial bank ac- ‘counts. Mr. Burcu. Have they allotments in severalty ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have their lands been opened ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And sold? Mr. Vatentine. I think so, sir. Mr. Burcu. The whites are intermingled with them now? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was that irrigated or irrigable lands? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think much Indian irrigation there. Mr. Burcu. Mainly grazing land? Mr. Vatenting. Grazing and farming. Mr. Burcu. Any timber or mining connected with it? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall, sir. Mr. Burcu. Fort McDermitt, Nev. What sort of place is that, or reservation ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9525 Mr. VauentIneE. It is a small place; I do not recall anything par- ticular about it. i The Cuarrman. I think it is a very good thing to get something about all these things on the record at this time. Mr. Gxrorcr. Just while we are on it here, will Mr. Ward testify as to that paper that went into the record yesterday ? Mr. Burcu. I suppose he will. He did not seem to be anxious to testify in advance, however; that is, informally. Mr. Georce. I think we shall have to get that paper. ae Lever. That paper was returned to me; I have it in my pocket. Mr. Burcu. Fort McDermitt, Nev. : Mr. Va.enrine. That is the one I said I had nothing particular to call to your attention about, as far as I know. They are scattered: Indians. It is a small place. Mr. Burcu. There is Fort Mohave, Ariz. -Mr. Vatenttne. I think of nothing particular. Mr. Burcu. Have they lands? Mr. Vatenrine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is it their lands that border on Colorado in the: north part ? Mr. Vatentine. No; they are on the Colorado River, just north: of The Needles, the place where the Santa Fe Railroad crosses the: Colorado. Mr. Burcu. They have not got anything much, have they; or what have they? Mr. VatenTINE. Apparently they have no lands of any importance; just a school. Mr. Burcu. All right, we will pass that. Fort Peck, Mont. ? Mr. Vatentine. That is a big reservation in the eastern part of Montana. It has got several irrigation projects on it, and one enor-. mous potential project to take water out of the Missouri and irri- gate the whole hundred miles lying between the Great Northern Railroad and the Missouri River. Mr. Burcu. Who for, the’ Reclamation Service or the Indians or- private interests? Mr. Vatentine. It has never been started. Mr. Burcu. It is in contemplation ? Mr. Vatentrne. It has been proposed several times. It would be an Indian reclamation project. Mr. Burcu. Have their lands been allotted in severalty ? Mr. VauentTine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has the reservation been opened ? Mr. Vatentine. There is an act opening it. Allotments are sub- stantially complete and the appraisement either under way or else done. The CuarrmMan. How will their right to use so much water be: affected by the rights of others below them, which are now fixed? Mr. Burcu. Prior rights? The Cuarrman. Yes; prior in the sense of time, at least. Mr. Burcu. Yes: that is what, in irrigation, they call prior rights.: Mr. Vatentine. I think filings have been made to protect the waters necessary for the reservation. Mr. Burcu. Have they got a large amount of tribal lands? 2526 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VauentIne. Yes, sir; the reservation is about as large as the State of Massachusetts. Mr. Burcu. Who does this appraising? Mr. Varentinr. The people appointed by the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Burcu. A special commission ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; as a rule. Mr. Burcu. Men in the Indian Bureau or out of it? Mr. Vatenrine. Well, there is usually some representative of the Indians; in some case an Indian, an officer of the department, and some citizen of the State usually makes a third member of the commission. Mr. Burcu. You spoke of an officer of the department. Does that mean Indian Bureau, or Land Office, or what? Mr. Vatentine. It may be any one. Mr. Burcu. How are they compensated ? Mr. VatenTINE. Compensation is usually provided for in the act. If it is an officer of our department, and there is no such com- pensation in the act, then they just do it in the regular course of their business. Mr. Burcu. The appraisement work that goes on on these lands— have you ever had any evil experience about it; have there ever been any suspicions that their appraisements were too low in justice to the Indians? Have you had charges of that kind? _ Mr. Vatentine. There may have been; it would be surprising if there had not been; but I do not recall any offhand. There have been some charges that appraisements were too high in some cases; eo the land was appraised on its speculative rather than its actual value. . Mr. Burcu. You have no suspicions, then, whatever, brought to bear against any of your appraisement boards? Mr. Vatentine. I do not-recall any at the present moment. As I say, it would be very remarkable if there had not been. Mr. Burcu. How many million acres are to be opened in that veservation? You say it is as large as Massachusetts. How many Indians are there on it? I will ask that question first. Mr. Vatentine. A little over 2,000. Mr. Burcu. And they have an estate as large as Massachusetts. How many million acres does that mean? Mr. Vatentine. Fort Peck Reservation is nearly 100 miles long and 50 or 60 miles wide, and that is just about the dimensions of Massachusetts. The Cuarrman. It does not appear on the map to be as big as Massachusetts; they both appear on this map. Mr. Vatentinz. Well, coming from Massachusetts myself, I know that Massachusetts is about 100 miles long and 50 miles wide, and I think the Great Northern runs for a little over 90 miles through the ot Peck Reservation, and I think it is about 50 miles north and south. Mr. Georcr. That is a good deal for a Massachusetts man to con- cede, anyway. VaLentTine. There are 1,776,000 acres in the Fort Peck Reser- vation. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2527 Mr. Burcu. Is that all? Mr. Vatentine. One million and three-quarters acres. Mr. Burcu. How much of that is to be opened ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall how much land the allotments have taken up. Mr. Burcu. They are not allowed over 160 acres, are they? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How much? Mr. Vatentine. I think 320 is the unit. Mr. Burcu. Per capita, man, wife, and child? Mr. Vatenting. That is, 320 acres, men, women, and children, if T recall it right; 160 acres of agricultural or 320 acres of grazing land. Mr. Burcu. Do they ever appraise these lands less than the mini- mum price, $1.25 an acre? Mr. Varentrne. I do not recall any such cases. They usually ap- praise a good deal over that. Mr. Burcu. Can they, under the law? Mr. Varentine. I do not believe they could unless there was a special act. Mr. Burcu. There have been no troubles connected with this? Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Meritt was under the impression—I said no irrigation projects—there are several projects well under way. Mr. Burcu. Private projects? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Public projects? Mr. Varentine. Made by the Interior Department. Mr. Burcu. Indian Bureau or Reclamation Service? Mr. Vatentine. The Reclamation Service is doing the work there. Mr. Burcu. Does that require the Indians’ lands or moneys to be taken for the purpose? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is reimbursable, in the same sense we were speaking of in regard to the Flat Heads. Mr. Grorcr. The tribal funds would pay for the thing or the sale of timber or sale of any valuable lands? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Fort Totten, N. Dak. How about that? Mr. VatentTiIneE. That is a school on the Devil’s Lake Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Merely a school? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; well, of course, the superintendent has charge of both that school and the reservation. Mr. Burcu. How large a reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. About 900 or 1,000 Indians there, I believe. Mr. Georcr. When you speak of Indians, do you mean mixed bloods and all? . Mr. Vatentine. Every person that is on the rolls, yes, sir; full bloods and mixed bloods. Mr. Grorce. All that get any benefit whatever from the reserva- tion? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Those are Sioux, I suppose? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; Devil’s Lake Sioux. Mr. Burcu. How large a reservation, how much land have they? Mr. Vatentine. About 92,000 acres. Mr. Burcu. Have there been allotments in severalty ? 2528 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Has it been thrown open; the reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. : Mr. Burcu. Has it been irrigated, or is it in the rain belt? Mr. Vatentine. It is in the rain belt, I think. Mr. Burcu. Are there any troubles there that you know of? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think of any. Mr. Burcu. What is the condition of the Indians in health in a sanitary way ? Mr. Vatentine. Nothing particular in that line has been brought to my attention. Mr. Burcu. Is there any agriculture among them? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; they raise wheat and flax and corn and such as that. Mr. Burcu. Now, I approach the Yuma, Fort Yuma. That is a small reservation, is it? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. A small number of Indians? Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcy. Right about Yuma? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Just north of Yuma? Mr. Varentine. Just across the river, on the Californa side. Mr. Burcu. There was irrigation there, was there not, out of the Great Colorado River? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. What is the condition of the Yuma Indians; how many of them are there? , Mr. Vatentine. I think there are a little over 600. Mr. Burcu. Have they allotments in severalty ? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they any tribal fund? i Varentine. No; I think not, sir; well, they have some land to sell. Mr. Burcu. Has the irrigation project above Fort Yuma been successful ? Mr. Vatentinge. As far as I know, sir. ir BORER: That was done under the Reclamation Service, was it not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was it done in such a way as to put a reimbursable— what I would call a lien or mortgage upon the land? Mr. Vatentine. That was a reimbursable project. Mr. Burcu. Have the lands been sold? Mr. Varentine. I think not, sir. Mr. Burcu. Any complaints about it; do the Indians themselves in any way complain? Mr. Vatentine. Well, they did complain at one time, I believe, or were dissatisfied in regard to the size of their allotments, which were later on increased by act of Congress from 5 acres to 10. Mr. Burcu. And the rest of the land is for sale—has been opened? Mr. Vatentine. I think it either is or will be. Mr. Burcu. Under the appraisal proposition ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2529 Mr. Vatentine. I should have to refresh my memory as to the precise terms of that opening. ° Mr. Burcu. What keeps up the reclamation if the lands are not sold, I mean the maintenance? Mr. Vatentine. It is an appropriation by Congress. Mr. Burcu. Congress has taken that in hand? Mr. VatenTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there any complaints about their interference with the Imperial Valley scheme below you? Mr, Vatentine. Of course, the Indian Yuma project is a smal} part, I think, of what the Reclamation Service calls its Laguna project, and any international troubles would be theirs rather than ours, so I do not recall just what the situation is. Mr. Burcu. I take up next the Genoa, Nebr., matter. Mr. Vatentine. That is an Indian school in Nebraska. Mr. Burcu. Nothing particular about it? Mr. Varentine. I do not think so. Mr. Burcu. Grand Portage, Minn.? os Mr. Vatentine. I do not think of anything particular to say about that. Mr. Burcu. Is that near Duluth? Duluth is their telegraph address ? Mr. Vatentine. It is northeast if I recall correctly; yes, it is the extreme northeastern point of Minnesota, on the Canadian line. Mr. Burcu. Is it on the iron belt there, up in the Mesabe Range? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know whether it is or not. Mr. Burcu. Have they any land? Mr. Vatentine. They apparently have a small reservation there. Mr. Burcu. If it is in the northeastern. portion it would be right in that very rich iron belt, would it not? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know just how that iron belt runs. There are 24,000 acres allotted to 304 Indians there, and 208 acres reserved for agency and wood purposes. Mr. Gerorcr. Is there any indication as to what kind of acres they are? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; 16,000 acres, according to this statement, to be opened to public settlement. Mr. Grorcr. Mineral or timber acres, or irrigable or rain belt? Mr. Vatentine. I would have to get you a statement about that, sir. Mr. Burcu. You have never heard any interest manifested on account of iron values? Mr. Vatentine. I have not heard of any, sir. Mr. Burcu. The next is Greenville, Cal. Mr. Vauentine. I do not think of anything to call your at- tention to in regard to that. Mr. Burcu. Is it a school or reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. It is a school. Mr. Burcu. Haskell Institute, Kansas; that is a mere school, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. I do not like your adjective. Mr. Burcu. A school? Mr. Vatentine. No; a “mere.” 2530 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. It has not anything on it to steal; that is what I mean by “mere.” Mr. Vatentine. Oh, yes, indeed. Mr. Burcu. Then it 1s not a “mere”? Mr. Vaventine. No. Mr. Burcu. I am not interested in much of anything but fraud. Mr. Grorce. Put that in; then we will know. Mr. Burcu. I have been so busy looking after frauds I do not think of anything else, you know, and I stand corrected by the com- mittee on that line. Mr. Grorcr. You do not get corrected by the committee. Mr. Burcu. What is the interest of Haskell Institute outside of the educational feature? Mr. Vatentine. Nothing. Simply when you said nothing to steal, I was thinking of the character of the children. Mr. Burcu. Well, that is one of those metaphysical or moral questions. Mr. Vatentine. I am glad that point has come up, because that is mighty important. You take a tribe like the Osage Indians who have got $9,000,000 from the Treasury—you were speaking awhile ago about these big sums of money—you have only reached the be- ginning of your troubles; when you have handled the land questions, properly handled the money ee and got all your property interests, we will assume, absolutely perfectly under way, then you have got the manhood proposition and the womanhood proposition, and the question of the boys’ and girls’ characters. Mr. Burcu. All those who have plenty of money seem to be truly good and moral, do they not? Mr. Varentine. I should say it was the other way, Judge. For instance, there is not a finer lot of Indians in the world than the Navaho Indians, who are self-supporting and have no money, while some of the tribes who have enormous funds, like the Osages, the Chippewa, and the Minnesotas, are the worst off in the country. Mr. Burcu. Now state the Haskell proposition. Mr. Vatenrinz. I did not mean to seriously criticize; I simply meant, when you said a mere school, I was thinking of the boys and girls to make the next generation; I was thinking of the character proposition as well as the property proposition. That is too often lost sight of. We think the soil an important thing, whereas, im- portant as it is, it is least important. Mr. Burcu. This school is supported by the Government, is it, and not by a tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. No; that is a Federal appropriation. Mr. Burcu. Is it prosperous, fairly so? Mr. Varentine. Yes; I think it is running along well. I do not mean to differentiate it with other schools. Mr. Burcu. Well, like Carlisle, it is an instrument of good to the Indians, is it? Mr. Vatentine. They are trying to make it so. It is not one of the schools which I think the service will need so very much longer. an Burcu. We will pass that, then. Havasupai, Ariz.; is that right ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2531 Mr. Vatentine. That is the place where the Indians were washed out so badly in a flood a short time ago. I think of nothing par- ticular about that, other than that. Mr. Burcu. Are they in western or northern Arizona? Mr. Vatentine. They are just west of Grand Canyon, a little west of the Altoona Hotel on the side. I was just trying to locate them for you. You know you go into the Grand Canyon from Williams, T think it is. Mr. Burcu. Are they the Indians you photograph there at the Grand Canyon? ; Mr. Vatentine. No; they are some ways west. They live in a little side canyon. Mr. Burcu. Many of them? Mr. Vatentine. Not many; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they much property? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; just a little bottom lands down in the canyon. Mr. Burcu. Are there any complaints? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any. Mr. Burcu. Hayward, Wis. ? Mr. Vatentine. That is a school. Mr. Burcu. Nothing but a school? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. No sawmill? Mr. Vatentine. Of course; the superintendent has charge of a reservation near the school. Mr. Burcu. Is that the reservation where the big sawmill is? : Mr. Vatentine. No; that is the Menomonie. Mr. Burcu. Is it large, this reservation? Mr. Varentine. It is the Lac Courte Oreille Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Large numerically, is it? Mr. Vatentine. It has about 20,000 acres and about 1,300 Indians. Mr. Burcu. Have they been allotted land in severalty? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The reservation opened long ago? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is there any tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so; I could not tell you offhand. Mr. Burcu. Is it self-sustaining? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you that either. I mean I could not give you any detailed information about it. Mr. Burcu. Any trouble about their moral or physical character? Mr. Vatentrne. I might say generally, in answer to that question, that in all of these places I have spoken. of the physical and moral. conditions, both as regards disease and liquor, are pretty general evils. Mr. Burcu. These are Chippewas? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcs. Hoopa Valley, Cal.? Mr. Vatentine. That has got some valuable timber on it; I do not recall any particular problems different from what we have men- tioned so far. Mr. Burcu. Allotted in severalty ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Timber held in common? 2532 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The timber held in common, is it? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The timber has not been allotted? Mr. Vatenrine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Any attempt made to get it? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any. Mr. Burcu. What is the character of it—pine? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you that offhand. Mr. Burcu. What part of California is it in? Mr. Vatentine. North of San Francisco, perhaps. Mr. Burcu. It might be very valuable timber—redwood—if it is along the coast. Mr. Vatenrine. Yes; it is near the coast. Mr. Burcu. Right near the redwood belt it should be. The Cuarrman. What particular value has it? Mr. Burcu. Redwood ? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Enormous. Mr. Grorcr. You mean what value has the redwood tree? The Cuarrman. Is that the so-called “big tree” ? Mr. Burcu. Yes; it has an enormous value. Mr. Grorcr. While there are two or three different families—one family, but two or three different branches of the family—but the redwood in all its branches is a very valuable tree indeed. Mr. Burcu. The West is an open book to me, and Michigan lum- bermen have been everywhere through that region, and I am always and at all times in possession of more or less gossip and more or less explanation in connection with those and have been for a good many years, and I know just northwest of San Francisco on the coast some of the most valuable forests in the entire coastwise country are situated. Mr. Grorcse. In Marin County and north of that. I can not re- member just the county. I used to know. Mr. Burcu. I remember Humboldt. Do you know anything about their having any valuable timber ? Mr, Varentinr. They have some very valuable timber. Mr. Burcu. Has it been sold? Mr. Varentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has it been opened for sale? _Mr. Vatentine. I think not. I might put in right there, any time you or the committee wish more detailed information, I have a system in the office which we are working out as fast as we can get time, taking what I call a bird’s-eye view of reservations, giving the general physical and moral characteristics of the reservation, and any time the committee would like that in detail I would be glad to supply them as to any particular reservation. Mr. Burcu. I will be contented, then, with what you say about that. You know of no legislation looking to the sale of that or opening it up? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Cuamman. When you find a convenient stopping place now, you might quit for lunch. Mr. Burcu. It has reached me already. I am prepared. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2533 Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether you met Mr. Pitzer or not; he is the gentleman sitting down there; the is the gentleman I spoke to you about yesterday; you might want to ask about these leases on the Osage Reservation we had up here. The Cuairman. Have you material here for the afternoon session ? Mr. Burcu. I suppose Mr. Ward will be here. He has not been given leave to go. The Cuarrman. We will take a recess until 2.30 o’clock this after- noon. AFTER RECESS. The subcommittee reassembled at 2.30 o’clock p. m. STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE A. WARD, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR. George A. Ward, having been duly sworn, was examined and testi- fied as follows: The Cuarrman. Will you state your name, please? Mr. Warp. George A. Ward. The Cuatrman. W-a-r-d? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Where do you live, Mr. Ward? Mr. Warp. I am a legal resident of Atchison, Kans.; I am residing in the District of Columbia. The Cuairman. By saying you are a legal resident, you mean that was your home before you came to the District? Mr. Warp. I mean that it is now my home, but that I am simply temporarily residing in the District of Columbia. The Cuatrman. How long was Atchison, Kans., your home? Mr. Warp. That county, from my birth until, I think, about 1897. The Cuarrman. When did you begin residing in the District of Columbia ? Mr. Warp. I think it was July 5, 1897. The Cuarrman. You were holding some official position here? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. The Caarrman. What was it? Mr. Warp. A clerkship in the War Department. The Cuarrman. What is your present occupation 4 Mr. Warp. Assistant attorney in the Interior Department. The Cuarrman. When did you change from the one position to the other ? Mr. Warp. I changed from the War Department to the Indian Office in May, 1899, and I went to the Interior Department—that is, to my present position—I think it was in June, 1910. . The CuarrMan. Was that the first position you held in the Interior Department ? aay Mr. Warp. No; I was in the Indian Office. That is under the In- terior Department. : 7 The Cuarrman. Yes. What was your business or profession be- fore you came to Washington? Mr. Warp. An attorney at law. és 2534 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. Practicing your profession for a living there? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. ; The Cuairman. After you came into the Indian Bureau what work were you doing? ; Mr. Warp. I was a clerk, and had at first assisted Mr. Marcosson in connection with the Five Civilized Tribes matters and timber. After he went out—I think it was in October, 1899—then I took charge of the work that I had been assisting him on, the Five Civi- lized Tribes and timber matter, everywhere except Menominee. The Cuarrman. By “timber” you mean what? Mr. Warp. I mean the sale of timber on all Indian reservations except the Menominee Indian Reservation, Wis. The Cuarrman. That included sales made under act of Congress, did it? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir; or treaty. The Cuairman. For how long a time did you have that matter in hand? Mr. Warp. From about October, 1899, to the latter part of March, or early in April, 1909. The Cuairman. Do I understand you to mean you handled it merely in the office sense, or did you go out into the field? Mr. Warp. No, sir; I never was in the field at all; I handled it in the office—that is, I prepared the correspondence, contracts, and things of that sort. The Cuairman. Did you have personal charge of it, or did you do this under the direction of someone else? Mr. Warp. I did it for a time, I think—of course, it was all the time under the direction of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Assistant Commissioner. The Cuarrman. In a theoretical way, yes; but as a matter of fact? Mr. Warp. As a matter of fact it was under the direction of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs; and, Mr. Chairman, up to—I think it was up to probably 1907, the spring of 1907, I think it was—I was under the Chief of the Land Division. The Cuarrman. Who was that, Mr. Ward? Mr. Warp. It was Maj. Larrabee from the time I went into the office until—I think it was—January 1, 1905. Then, for a short time, for the next two years, Mr. James F. Allen was Chief of the Land Division, and about some time in March, 1907, another divi- sion was established, and I was made chief of that. The Cuamman. After you ceased to occupy that position, you state you went into what other one? Mr. Warp. I went to the Interior Department as assistant attorney. The Cuarrman. What were your duties there? Mr. Warp. What are they now in the Interior Department? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Warp. They are miscellaneous. We handle in our section all the parks and the different institutions, such as the Government hospital, school for the blind, and Hot Springs Reservation; and then when they have some old thing that has been hanging fire for many years I am generally fortunate enough to get it. The Cuairman. Who is your immediate superior officer in your present position? 5 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2535 Mr. Warp. Mr. W. B. Acker; he is chief of the section. The Cuarrman. And your section comes under the supervision of what officer? ra Warp. The chief clerk of the Interior Department, Mr. C. S. Ucker. The Cuarrman. I think, Judge, that is sufficient as to personal history. Mr. Burcu. You say you were born in Atchison County? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Borcu. At Sumner? Mr. Warp. Oh, no; I was born in the southwest corner of the county, 2 miles from the south line and a quarter mile from the west line—the same farm where my father now lives. Mr. Burcu. You came into the Department of the Interior—the Indian service—in 1909? Mr. Warp. No, sir; 1899. Mr. Burcu. 1899. Mr. Warp. I think it was the 16th of May, but I am not certain about the date. Mr. Burcu. In the year 1904 which division did you belong to? Mr. Warp. I was in the Land Division. Mr. Burcu. Who was in charge of that—Allen? Mr. Warp. The Land Division in 1904? Maj. Larrabee. Mr. Burcu. Maj. Larrabee himself ? Mr. Warp. Maj. C. F. Larrabee was chief of the division. Mr. Burcu. When was he promoted to assistant ? Mr. Warp. Assistant commissioner ? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Warp. I think it was the 1st of January, 1905. Mr. Burcu. What State was he from? Mr. Warp. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Haven’t you ever heard ? Mr. Warp. I have, but I have forgotten. I am inclined to believe that he was from Massachusetts. It was one of the New England States. Mr. Burcu. Wasn’t it New Hampshire? Mr. Warp. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. It does not matter anyhow. Was there anybody in that division at that time who had ever come from a timber-land State, that you know of? Mr. Warp. May I ask Mr. Leupp a question? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Warp. Did you make Wise assistant superintendent of Carlisle? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. Warp. Yes, sir; there was. Mr. Burcu. Who was he? Mr. Warp. John R. Wise. Mr. Burcu. What State? Mr. Warp. Wisconsin. Mr. Burcu. What part of Wisconsin, if you know? Mr. Warp. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. What did he have to do with the timber land? Mr. Warp. Nothing, so far as I know. 2536 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. ‘ Mr. Burcu. Had any of the members of that division ever been out among the lands of the Indian Bureau—the timber land—that you know of? . Mr. Wann. I think that Maj. Larrabee had, but it was many years prior to this. He was on one of what we call the Chippewa Com- missions, I think. That was probably some time in the eighties. Mr. Burcu. He was once a member of the Chippewa Commission? Mr. Warp. I think so; yes, sir; the commission that Judge Wright and some minister were on. Mr. Burcu. Bishop Marty? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Wasn’t it Judge Rice? ; : Mr. Warp. Wright—no; it was Rice. Wright was on a committee farther west. Mr. Burcu. Then Larrabee belonged to that Chippewa Commis- sion that Bishop Marty and Judge Rice were on? Mr. Warp. I am not certain sic thine he was a member of the com- mission or an employee of the commission, but he was connected with it in some way. Mr. Burcu. Is he here now? Mr. Warp. I do not know, but he resides in Washington. Mr. Burcu. Is he an old man? Mr. Warp. I should say that the major is probably about 68, I guess. He was, I think, in the Civil War. Mr. Burcu. In this membership of the Chippewa Commission— that had nothing to do with lumbering? Mr. Warp. Oh, no. Mr. Burcu. Now, did you have anybody with whom you were accustomed in that division in 1904 to consult in respect to practical timber matters ? Mr. Warp. Why, we had a general superintendent of logging, and we also consulted with the Forest Service. Mr. Burcu. I call your attention now to the proposition to sell the timber on the White Earth Diminished Reservation. Under the act called the “ Clapp rider ”—not called so, but which was the Clapp rider to the appropriation bill of 1904, and subsequent to the act of 1902, called the Morris Act, and the whole, of course, subsequent to the act of 1879, called the Nelson Act—— The CHarrMan. 1889. Mr. Burcu. 1889, called the Nelson Act. Now, were you acquainted with Justice S. Stearn ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. When did you first know him? Mr. Warn. I think it was in 1903. Mr. Burcu. Where? Mr. Warp. In the Indian Office. Mr. Burcu. Were you acquainted at that time with Fred Herrick? Mr. Warp. No, sir; and I am not to-day. _Mr. Burcu. You knew the connection between Stearn and Her- rick, did you not? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. _ Mr. Burcu. And that they were practically the same outfit—that is, the same lumbering outfit? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 25387 Lak Warp. So far as the Lac du Flambeau Reservation is con- cerned. Mr. Burcu. Did Maj. Larrabee—was he acquainted, so far as you know, with Mr. Stearn? Mr. Warp. Oh, I suppose he was, but I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever meet with Congressman Roswell P. Bishop, of Michigan, ninth district? Mr. Warp. Not that I recollect. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever remember of a one-armed Member of Congress calling in there with Mr. Stearn? Mr. Warp. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Georcz. Who was the one-armed Member of Congress? Mr. Burcu. Roswell P. Bishop, ninth district of Michigan. They lived in the same place, Stearns and he. When did you first hear of the proposition to sell the timber on this diminished reservation ? Mr. Warp. Do you mean under the act of — Mr. Burcu. Any act. Mr. Warp. Oh, we sold timber there—— aoe Burcu. I am not speaking of that—the general sale of the timber. Mr. Warp. I think we started shortly after what is known as the Steenerson bill was introduced in Congress. That is—— Mr. Burcu. The 1904 bill? Mr. Warp. The attempt to secure the passage of this Clapp amend- ment. Mr. Burcu. That was not the Steenerson bill. You mean the Steenerson additional allotment bill of 1904? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who did you first hear discuss the subject of selling this timber? Mr. Warp. Well, I can not say as to that. Mr. Burcu. Did Stearn talk of it? Mr. Warp. Oh, no. ‘Mr. Burcu. You did not hear him mention it? Mr. Warp. I never heard him mention it. As a matter of fact, T have never seen Stearn, to the best of my recollection, but twice. Mr. Burcu. No matter about that. I am not accusing you now. Mr. Warp. I know you are not. Mr. Burcu. I am not accusing anybody. I want to know where it emanated. Who did you first hear mention the subject of that sale of that timber? Mr. Warp. I can not tell you now. I think it was by correspond- ence. I think it was brought out probably by Mr. Farr, or 1t was brought out in some way—I can not tell you without examining the records of the Indian Office—or it may have been brought out in some other way and we referred it to Mr. Farr; that is, I mean the Indian Office. : Mr. Burcu. Do you mean to say by that that you think Mr. Farr advocated the sale of the timber first? Mr. Warp. No; I am not certain whether Mr. Farr was the one who brought the subject up or whether it_was brought up in some other way and then we referred it to Mr. Farr for his views. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——65 2538 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. You can not tell, then? Who could tell; who would know how that was first brought up? Mr. Warp. I do not know. . Mr. Burcu. What part did you first have init? Mr. Warp. My first part was drafting the legislation, preparing the law for the signature, I think it was, of the assistant commis- sioner—either assistant or acting—and transmitting it to one of the chairmen of the Indian Affairs Committees; I do not remember whether it was the House or Senate. Mr. Burcu. Do I understand from that that you mean the Steener- son Act for additional allotments. Mr. Warp. We are talking about the Clapp rider, aren’t we? Mr. Burcu. The last thing we mentioned was the Steenerson Act for additional allotments. Mr. Burcu. I mean the allotment in the Indian appropriation bill of June 21, 1904, authorizing the sale of timber. Mr. Burcu. Yes. Now, you prepared, you think, the rider itself Mr. Warp. I know I did. The Cuairman. Just a moment. What was that provision in the appropriation bill of 1904 that you refer to? Mr. Burcu. That was for the sale of timber that had heretofore been allotted, or might hereafter be allotted. The Cuairman. Could we get the provision of the law literally? Mr. Burcu. It is in the record already, I think. It is mentioned in my statement to the committee—yes; it is in the record now. The Cuairman. Could you refer to it, Judge? Mr. Burcu. My right hand in such matters, Mr. O’Brien, is away. The CHairman. Leave a place there for the insertion of a refer- ence to it.? Mr. Burcu. Have you read the statement said to have been pre- sented to the committee by myself? Mr. Warp. I have not. Mr. Burcu. It was an act simultaneous with the—or practically so—with the Steenerson Act, was it not? That is, this rider of 1904? Mr. Warp. I think it was; but I do not recollect the date of the Steenerson Act. Mr. Burcu. The general terms of it were that the Department of the Interior might sell the land, the timber on the lands that had been on the White Earth Reservation that had been heretofore allotted to Indians or might hereafter be allotted to them. Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. What was it, then? Mr. Warp. It was that the Indians to whom allotments have here- tofore been made or may hereafter be made may, with the consent of the Secretary, sell the timber. Mr. Burcu. At that time did you know that substantially no tim- ber had been allotted on the White Earth Reservation under the so-called original allotment? Mr. Warp. I did. Mr. Burcu. Why did you say, then, “heretofore”? Because the Steenerson Act for the additional or timber allotments had not then been passed. 1Not printed. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2539 Mr. Warp. That is exactly what brought about the office recom- mending this legislation, and in addition to that, timber under the act of 1889—the timber was estimated, and I think it was found it was more than 10,000 feet on—I have forgotten whether it was on a 40 or an 80. It was not allotted. The object was—for instance, here is an allotment, and we will say it is heavily timbered: it is made under the Steenerson Act. Here is this man that has got, say, 5,000 feet of timber on his land. He wants to sell it. We want to give him an opportunity to sell it. é Mr. Burcu. The proposition was then that lands under the origi- nal allotment which were supposed to have less than 10,000 feet to the allotment—— Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is, on the whole allotment—that they might have an opportunity to sell their small amount of timber, and that is what you meant by “heretofore” ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. As well as persons who would be allotted timber un- der the Steenerson Act any other additional allotments of pine tim- ber in large quantities? ; Mr. Warp. I do not know anything about the large quantities part, because I have never been on the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Oh, no; considerable quantity. You know the Steen- erson Act was intended to cover the pine land on the reservation. Mr. Warp. It was intended to cover any land on the reservation; not necessarily pine, but any unallotted land. Mr. Burcu. It specially mentions pine. Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Burcu. Now, expecting that to pass, you were preparing a rider for it to be sold? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir; the office was. Mr. Burcu. That is it. Now, who suggested that policy? Mr. Warp. I do not remember whether it came from the man who was commisisoner at that time, Mr. Jones, or whether it was Maj. Larrabee, or myself, or who it was. Mr. Burcu. Where was Mr. Jones from? Mr. Warp. From Mineral Point, Wis. Mr. Burcu. Then the department itself—that is, the Indian Bu- reau itself—was engaged in a preparatory piece of legislation that was to sell the pine upon this reservation; that is, authorized the sale of pine upon this reservation, both on the original allotments and on the proposed allotments, but not actually enacted allotments? Mr. Warp. Not pine timber. It did not make any difference whether it was pine or hard wood. } Mr. Burcu. I accept the amendment. You prepared that legis- lation ? Mr. Warp. I did. , Mr. Burcu. You can not say at whose suggestion ? Mr. Warp. I can not. Mr. Burcu. Why? ; Mr. Warp. Because I do not remember. That is my idea. Mr. Burcu. I know, but you remember the details. Mr. Warp. Certainly Ido. But suppose that the commisisoner re- quested me to prepare this legislation; it may have been prepared after conference. I would not recollect that at this late day. 9540 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. You would not recollect the conference ? Mr. Warp. No; it is not probable I would. I have had many con- ferences that I have forgotten. Take the memorandum that Mr. Leupp showed here the other*day. I had forgotten all about that until I saw it. Mr. Burcu. At that time did you know Mr. Stearn; had you seen him about the office? Mr. Warp. I had seen him, I think, once prior to that. Mr. Burcu. In the office? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was he in conference ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. With whom? / Mr. Warp. With the commissioner, myself, and Maj. Larrabee, and I do not believe—no, Mr. Farr was not there at that time. Mr. Burcu. What was he conferring about? Mr. Warp. About 350 timber contracts on the’ Bad River Reserva- tion, Wis. Mr. Burcu. At Lac du Flambeau? Mr. Warp. No; Bad River. Mr. Burcu. Where was the Bad River Reservation ? Mr. Warp. In the State of Wisconsin. Mr. Burcu. No; what part of Wisconsin, if you remember ? Mr. Farr. Nine miles from Ashland. Mr. Burcu. That is the Little Point—— Mr. Farr. Yes. Mr. Burcu. That is where the works of the J. S. Stearn Co. are now, isn’t it? Mr. Warp. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Now, you think you were instructed by somebody to prepare this Clapp rider? Mr. Warp. Undoubtedly. Mr. Burcu. You did not do it of your own volition? Mr. Warp. Certainly not. Mr. Burcu. You do not remember who instructed you? Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. You think there was a proposition up at that time looking to the sale of this timber? Mr. Warp. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Burcu. Not a proposition, but a purpose? Mr. Warp. I do not. There was a proposition to get a law that would authorize the sale of the timber. Mr. Burcu. Precisely. Mr. Warp. Just the same as in the act of May 27, 1909. Mr. Burcu. That is a distinction without a difference, isn’t it? Mr. Warp. I do not think so. Mr. Burcu. If there was a proposition to pass legislation author- izing it to be sold Mr. Warp. The timber on the White Earth Reservation—there was only one law under which it could be sold, and that was the act of 1899, known as the dead and down timber act. There was scandal every time it was touched, and the Indian Office said, “ We will get away from that 1899 act and get a law under which we can do business.” WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9541 Mr. Burcu. By selling the whole timber? Mr. Warp. Not necessarily. If you sold under the 1889 act—if you sold the dead and down timber, they would cut every white stick they could get their fingers on. Mr. Burcu. They would cut it under the law authorizing the sale? Mr. Warp. There was not any law. Mr. Burcu. If they had passed such a law it would amount to the same thing. If they had cut it all under this law you proposed, it would be cut just the same as if they operated. unlawfully under the dead and down timber act. Mr. Warp. Then he would get timber prices instead of dead and down prices. Mr. Burcu. Then the act was really merciful to the Indians? Mr. Warp. Unquestionably. Mr. Burcu. It was arranged wholly in his interests? Mr. Warp. Undoubtedly. Mr. Burcu. And not at all in the interest of persons that desired to secure the timber? Mr. Warp. I do not know anybody that desired to secure the timber at that time. Mr. Burcu. How soon after that—after you prepared this legis- lation for 1904—did the proposition come from somebody to buy it? Mr. Warp. I think it was probably in the latter part of July, or maybe about the middle of July. Mr. Burcn. The act was passed in June? Mr. Warp. Yes. . Mr. Burcu. Then really the proposition to purchase the timber came speedily after the opportunity ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And in view of that the office acted promptly? Mr. Warp. Wait a minute; hold on. No, no; that act was passed the 21st of June, 1894. I think that was the date of the act. Mr. Burcu. No; 1904. Mr. Warp. I mean 1904; and the proposition to sell was the next year, 1905; it was in 1905. It was a year after the passage of the act. Mr. Burcu. After the passage of the act. Well, now, then, who made the first proposition to sell? Mr. Warp. To purchase? Mr. Burcu. To purchase, I mean. Mr. Warp. I do not recollect, and, as a matter of fact, I do not think anybody made a proposition to purchase until the timber was advertised. It would not be entertained. Mr. Burcu. Not exactly a proposition, but a desire to bid. Mr. Warp. I do not know of anyone. Mr. Burcu. Were you conscious at the time you drew the papers providing for the sale of this timber that there was somebody anxious to bid? Mr. Warp. What do you mean by that? Mr. Burcu. Somebody wanted Mr. Warp. Do you mean any particular person? Mr. Burcu. Yes. 2542 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Wan. I was not; but I take it if you granted that, all the lumbermen—people interested in the lumber business—would natu- rally want to get hold of it as a matter of business. Mr. Burcu. Now, when did you begin to prepare these papers looking to the sale of the timber ? Mr. Warp. I do not know what the dates are, but probably just a few days before their dates. Mr. Burcu. You can not recollect when that was? Mr. Warp. I think it was in August, but I am not certain, of 1905. Mr. Burcu. What papers did you prepare first? Mr. Warp. Regulations. Mr. Burcu. Now, in the preparation of these regulations, did you have the benefit of the experience of any competent timbermen ? Mr. Warp. Well, I can not testify as to the competency, but we had the benefit of the views of the Forest Service, and of its regu- lations. Mr. Burcu. What forest service? Mr. Warp. The Forest Service under the Agriculture Depart- ment—the Bureau of Forestry. Mr. Burcu. The Bureau of Forestry. What particular persons in the Bureau of Forestry ? Mr. Warp. I think it was a man by the name of—I believe his name is Cox. He is now, I think, state forester of the State of Minnesota. Mr. Burcu. Was he an experienced timberman—a lumberman ? Mr. Warp. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Did he know the purpose of these particular rules and regulations? Mr. Warp. Who? Mr. Burcu. Cox. Mr. Warp. Certainly. | Mr. Burcu. Did he come over to your bureau—to the Indian Bureau—and confer with you there? : Mr. Warp. I think we went back and forth—that he came over and I went over there. Mr. Burcu. Did he claim to know the locality—the reservation— do you know? Mr. Warp. I do not recollect as to that. Mr. Burcu. Did you at any time have the assistance of Mr. Farr? Mr. Warp. I do not believe we did on those regulations. _ Mr. Burcu. Those regulations have been very severely criticized in the testimony in this case. Mr. Farr, perhaps, did not severely criticize them, but I may say that in his testimony he did not seem to approve them, and therefore I do not think that his experience had anything to do with it. Now, you do not know how much ex- perience Mr. Cox had? Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Personally, you had never been a lumberman or had worked in lumbering yourself? Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, did anybody else outside of Mr. Cox and your- self suggest contracts that were to be drawn after that? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2543 Mr. Farr. Could I offer a suggestion at this time that might save asking questions later on in reference to the rules and regulations? Mr. Burcu. You may, with my consent. Mr. Farr. I quite severely criticized the rules and regulations in the reports that I filed, as you will recall, and while I did not give any testimony outside of that, I called attention to numerous de- ects. The Cuarrman. The reports went in in connection with your testi- mony, and those reports pointed out defects and suggested remedies ? Mr. Farr. Yes. Mr. Burcu. I only put it mildly because I did not want to tread on your toes or the witness’s. You were not the only one that criti- cized them. I want to know what practical person, if any, dealt with these important subjects. Mr. Warp. So far as I know nobody but Mr. Cox, but the regula- tions are practically identical with their regulations governing the sale of timber on their reservations. Mr. Burcu. I feared so. That had been at that time? Mr. Warp. That had been at that time, and many of the para- graphs in the other regulations were prepared or suggested either by the Forest Service or by Mr. Farr. Mr. Burcu. Well, that might be, many of them. A rope is not stronger than its weakest part. If you do not say all of them then it does not criticize Mr. Farr. Mr. Warp. Well, I do not say all of them. Mr. Burcu. Who suggested to you to have the benefit of the ex- perience of the Forestry Service? Mr. Warp. I do not recollect now. I may have taken it up on my own volition. The two offices about that time had commenced, so to speak, to work together in reference to timber matters on Indian Reservations. Mr. Burcu. Who prepared in addition to these regulations the notices to sell? Mr. Warp. I prepared the notices. Mr. Burcu. How did you come to fix the sale at such an early date after the time of publication of notice as two or three weeks— three weeks? Mr. Warp. I think it was two weeks. No; I think it was adver- tised two weeks. I think the advertisement was to run two weeks. Mr. Burcu. How did that come? Mr. Warp. Because of the lateness in the year, in order to give the successful bidder an opportunity to get in and commence work during the winter of 1905, and in addition to that it had been the custom of the office in advertising the sale of timber to give short notice in order to avoid expense. : Mr. Burcu. Now, did you have an idea about the great quantity of timber there? : Mr. Warp. Only as shown by the report of Mr. Davis. I have forgotten his first name. Mr. Burcu. Sam Davis? Mr. Warp. Sam Davis. Only as shown by that report. That is all I know about it. 2544 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. Burcu. Did you consider it a practical and businesslike thing, in looking after the interests of the lumbermen and getting them an opportunity to act promptly on the timber, to advertise so enormous a quantity as that, involving such a large quantity of purchase, or sale rather, to allow it to be sold on two weeks’ notice ? Mr. Warp. We were not looking after the interests of the lumber- men. Mr. Burcu. I think you said you wanted them to get a chance to get lumber that winter ? : ; Mr. Warp. Certainly, in the interest of the Indian, so the Indians could get some money. ; Mr. Burcu. Did you consider it to the interests of the Indians to advertise two weeks? Mr. Warp. I certainly did; otherwise we would not have adver- tised two weeks. I should consider that a sufficient length of time. Mr. Burcu. I noticed in a memorandum—lI observed in glancing over the memorandum—do you recognize that [exhibiting a paper]. Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Did you draw that? Mr. Warp. I did. Mr. Burcu. I will offer it in evidence now in connection with the witness’s testimony. Mr. Grorcr. It is already in the record. Mr. Burcu. I do not think so. The Cuarrman. Only a reference to it. Mr. Burcu. I noticed you speak there in that memorandum of Sam Davis’s bid—the examination being a rough guess. Mr. Warp. A rough estimate. Mr. Burcu. A rough estimate; yes. I stand corrected. And I notice you say that as he went over it in two weeks it was deemed probable that the lumber companies might do the same thing in two weeks. That is in there, I think you will find. Did you mean by that that the lumber companies need not have more than two weeks to make a thorough investigation of that matter? Mr. Warp. I should suppose that that would have been sufficient time, basing it on the time it took Mr. Davis to make his estimate. Mr. Burcu. That was the best of your experience at that time and the experience of Mr. Cox would enable you to do? Mr. Warp. I do not know anything about the experience of Mr. Cox, but it was my judgment. I never had any experience in the timber business. Mr. Burcu. But you were in charge of this great matter? Mr. Warp. I certainly was. Mr. Burcu. And yet had never had any experience? Mr. Warp. In logging? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Warp. No, sir; not a minute’s. Mr. Burcu. You advertised this in September ? Mr. Warp. I think it was in August. Mr. Burcu. In August, yes; to be sold September 5, in about 25 days from the time you advertised it. Mr. Farr. August 7. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2545 The Cuamman. It would simplify the matter and enable us to follow it better if that memorandum were read into the record now. You are referring to things in it which are really not familiar to the committee. Mr. Burcu. Shall I read it? The Cuarrman. I will read it. The memorandum is as follows: MEMORANDUM. First. June 21, 1905, Sam B. Davis, supervisor of Indian schools, was in- structed to proceed to the White Earth Diminished Reservation and imme- diately make a rough estimate of the amount of timber of each kind or class on the allotted lands. He was directed to estimate separately the ‘“ white pine, Norway, pigiron Norway, jack pine, oak, elm, birch, maple, cedar, etc.,” and te ar that the timber would be sold on sealed bids after proper adver- sement. That part of the act of Apir] 21, 1905 (33 Stat., 189, 209), concerning the sale of timber on lands allotted to Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota, was, for his information, quoted in office letter mentioned. June 28, 1905, Senator Clapp and Representative Buckman, both of whom had informally discussed the sale of timber on the White Earth allotted lands with the office, were advised of the action above mentioned. July 4, 1905, Superintendent Davis made report and estimated the timber- suitable for manufacturing into lumber as follows: a Feet, White pine Sooo Sete sece eae ae oe 90, 000. 000: Norway pii@——=.—- == 2.2 ek sees PEI hee 80, 000, 000: Jack pine is 2 eae --- 20, 000, 000 Oak ___ sa hae eR OD tee ee teens 35, 000, 000: Wii. Ss eec laste ol ee Leas Gee eew ee a oe 20, 000, 000- Basswood ites, 15, 000, 000° Maple 10, 000, 000 Ash aoe 5, 000, 000 He informed the office that this was about as accurate an estimate of the merchantable timber as he would be able to make unless he was authorized to employ a sufficient crew of expert men to go over the whole territory “ for the purpose of getting a safer one.” It will be seen, therefore, that Mr. Davis made an estimate of the timber in about two weeks, and it was reasonable for this office to presume that any lumber company that desired to estimate the timber would be able to do so in about the length of time it took Mr. Davis. Furthermore, the office was. anxious that operations be commenced during the logging season of 1905-6. Second. This office can not say whether there would have been one or more: bids for the timber; but no matter how many or how few bids there were received, the highest bidder would not have been authorized to buy the timber from the Indians unless the department and the office were satisfied that the highest bid was the fair and reasonable value of the timber. The timber belongs to the Indians, and the department, under the provisions of the act of April 21, 1904, granted authority for the allottees of the White Earth dimin- ished reservation and Indians of said reservation to whom allotments may hereafter be made to sell their timber to whoever might be authorized to pur- chase it at stipulated prices, and in the event the sale is authorized no contract will be approved, except at the maximum price for each kind or class of timber covered by such contract, and the Indian can not sell for less than the maxi- mum price, as the contract “ shall have no force or effect until the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have indorsed his approval thereon.” (See par. 2 of the regulations. ) Third. It was not the intention of the department or the office to have the timber cut in a few years, but it was and is the desire of both that the cutting continue for a number of years, say, 18 or 20 years, and it is reasonable to presume that with a mill on the reservation all Indians who were willing to work would be able to find employment. Each contract will contain a provi- sion that upon the approval of it a certain amount, $25 or $50, shall be paid by the contractor, and that theresfter, annually, beginning one year from the 2546 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. date of the contract, a sum equal to 5 per cent of the estimated value of the timber on each allotment shall be paid to the United States Indian agent, White Earth Agency, for the use and benefit of the allottee. Furthermore, paragraph 1 of the regulations provides that the Secretary of the Interior may, at inter- vals of not less than five years during the existence of the contracts or any of them, “increase the prices, or any of them, specified therein, if he shall deem it just to do so, subject, however, to the consent of the timber contractor, If the contractor shall fail, refuse, or neglect to approve such increase within 30 days after notice thereof, the Secretary of the Interior may elect to terminate all timber contracts then in force covering the timber on the allotted lands on said reservation, in which case the authorized contractor shall be given 30 days’ notice of such election.” The above-quoted provision of the regulations is sufficient to show the inten- tion of the Government, and it is believed by the office that more satisfactory results and equally as good prices can be obtained and probably better prices by allowing but one mill to be established on the reservation. The principal reason, however, for favoring the establishment of but one mill is to prolong the time within which the timber may be cut and manufactured. Fourth. Two thousand five hundred dollars is the amount the office has usually required bidders to deposit as an evidence of good faith. It is more for the protection of the Indians in the matter of the expense of estimating and adver- tising the timber for sale than as a forfeiture to them for any supposed damage that might accrue. Fifth. The only expenses that will be paid from the proceeds of the timber, under the regulations, are one-half the cost of scaling, telegraphing, the ex- penses of the logging crew when engaged in fighting fires, the rate of such ex- penses to be fixed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and the fire guards. Sixth. Only trees that are sufficiently large to be classed as merchantable timber can be cut, and the regulations provide that “ groups of from two to four matured pines, situated at intervals of about 400 feet,’ shall be marked, and that no marked tree shall be cut, and the contractor is required to clear the ground of tops and branches ‘‘ within a radius of 50 feet from the groups of marked trees.” Mr. Warp. Mr. Chairman, I said a few minutes ago that I did not remember who made application, if anyone, for the purchase of this timber before we started the matter of the sale. I find from this correspondence here that Fred Herrick and the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. made application probably sometime in April, 1905, as this letter recites, referring to Mr. Farr’s letter of April 28, 1905. So it is likely that that is where the actual matter of the sale started on these applications for permission to establish a saw mill on the Se Earth Reservation and to purchase the timber on the allotted ands. The Cuairman. That is Herrick’s application? Mr. Warp. Herrick and the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. The Cuairman. Did the Nichols-Chisholm people say anything about establishing a mill on the reservation ? Mr. Warp. I do not know; I am just taking it from this. Mr. Farr. I can settle this question, if you want me to, right here. The Cuarrman. You are under oath already, Mr. Farr. Mr. Farr. Yes. In January, 1905, Mr. Herrick made written application to the office to purchase the timber and erect a mill. In April of the same year the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. made an application of exactly, as I remember, the same nature. Mr. Burcu. Then, in truth, instead of being surprised by this proposition, the Nichols-Chisholm Lumber Co. had made an exactly similar proposition and wanted to get hold of the timber? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir. __Mr. Burcu. Did they merely want to get hold of the timber, or did they know this plan? Vv WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2547 Mr. Warp. As I recall now—I have the correspondence here—the other application was the same as the one made by Mr. Herrick. Mr. Grorce. Doesn’t this contradict testimony we have already in the record? Mr. Burcu. I want to call for that communication there as tend- ing to show the bad faith of the claims put forth here in evidence by the Nichols-Chisolm Lumber Co. in their testimony to the effect that they were taken by surprise. Mr. Georcr. The testimony of Mr. Nichols in particular? Mr. Burcu. Well, their claim throughout; perhaps not Mr. Pow- ells in his testimony, but I think Mr. Nichols in his statement. They claim this matter was all a surprise to them. The Cuarrman. The communication is competent to go in for that or any other purpose which may be served. Mr. Warp. That is exactly what I was going to suggest, that you call on the Indian Office for copies of these two applications and put them in the record. Mr. Burcu. Are they here? Mr. Warp. No; I could not find them. Mr. Farr. I have had a copy of the application of the Nichols- Chisholm Lumber Co., or a quotation of it, in a letter to me asking that I consider it in connection with the application of Mr. Herrick. Mr. Burcu. I must hurry on with the testimony. The CHarrman. There is plenty of time to get them. Mr. Burcu. Did anybody else than yourself and Mr. Cox have any hand in the responsibility of providing for this sale, this proposed sale? Mr. Warp. Certainly. Mr. Burcu. Who? Mr. Warp. Maj. Larrabee, who was—let me see that letter, Mr. Farr, I think that letter was signed by Maj. Larrabee—and the Sec- retary of the Interior, and the employees in the Secretary of the Inte- rior’s office who passed on the regulations and prepared the letters for the signature of the Secretary. Mr. Burcu. No; I am speaking of matters ‘antedating that. I mean the proposition to prepare this timber for sale, which, of course, must have preceded the regulations and preceded the sending of Mr. Davis there and all these other proceedings. I mean the proposition whether the timber should be sold or not. Mr. Warp. I do not recollect now that it was the commissioner or the assistant commissioner. Mr. Burcu. The commissioner then was Mr. Jones? Mr. Warp. No, sir; the commisisoner then was Mr. Leupp and the assistant commissioner was Maj. Larrabee. _ Mr. Burcu. Mr. Leupp has testified that he did not have anything to do with it or know anything about it at that stage. Would it be one or the other? : ; Mr. Warp. It would be one or the other, and my judgment is that Mr. Leupp was in the field when the subject was taken up. ; Mr. Lever. I testified that I was in the field, but that I sent Maj. Larrabee a little penciled memorandum telling about Herrick’s call on me, and saying I did not know anything about this business, but I should think that the La Pointe system was a good one to adopt, and the Major went on then, taking it evidently as a request. e 2548 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. I was aware of that evidence, and it was not that. It was the question of the advisability of selling this timber, of offering it for sale, of exposing it for sale. Mr. Warp. I do not understand what you mean: Mr. Burcu. Well, somebody had to determine, didn’t they, whether it should be offered for sale? : Mr. Warp. Certainly. The Secretary of the Interior determined that. Mr. Burcu. How do you know? Mr. Warp. He has letters in there approving that recommendation, Mr. Burcu. Do they prove anything about what he determined? Mr. Warp. There could not anybody else determine it under the le We Mr. Burcu. Well, I know; he could sign letters and all that. I wanted to get at the direct personal responsibility. The Secretary probably signed lots of letters, thousands of letters, that he never read a line of because he saw initials at the top of them. I am not speaking of Secretary Hitchcock in that way. I mean the actual, mental, moral, conscious man that passed upon this. Now, who? Mr. Warp. You mean in the Indian Office? Mr. Burcu. Yes; or both; either way. Mr. Warp. Well, in the Indian Office, myself, Mr. Allen, and Maj. Larrabee, the man who signed the letter. Now, when it went to the department, I do not recollect who handled it over there. I think the letter was signed by Secretary Hitchcock, but I do not recollect the persons who handled it. Mr. Burcu. We understand each other now. Did you have any part in deciding that the timber should be sold or ought to be sold? Mr. Warp. Oh, I suppose I was consulted about it. Certainly, I was undoubtedly consulted. Mr. Burcu. Did you advocate its sale? Mr. Warp. I do not recollect. Mr. Burcu. If you had opposed it you would recollect? Mr. Warp. Not necessarily so. Mr. Burcu. Do you remember whether Maj. Larrabee was an ardent advocate of it or otherwise? Mr. Warp. I do not think there was any ardent advocate any- where. It was simply a business proposition. ee Burcu. This Mr. Cox, of the Forestry Bureau, was he a young man ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Quite young, wasn’t he? Mr. Warp. Well, I would say he was probably about 30 years old. Mr. Burcu. Did he claim to have ever had any experience in the woods? Mr. Warp. I never asked him anything about his experience. Mr. Burcu. Did you not in these rules and regulations pretty closely follow the rules and regulations of the Forestry Bureau ? Mr. Warp. To a great extent, and, I think, regulations—Mr. Farr, yun aie Griffith commence operating with us? Was that before Mr. Farr. I think not. Mr. Warp. Well, then, the Forest Service. I remember that Mr. Griffith—he was State forester of Wisconsin, wasn’t he? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2549 Mr. Farr. Yes. Mr. Warp. That he had something to do with drafting some timber regulations, but I do not recollect just what it was. Mr. Burcu. The general tone of these regulations is the tone of the Forestry Bureau at that time, is it not? For instance, what do you call “seed trees”? Mr. Warp. Seed trees? I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Very few do. Mr. Warp. I do not know. : Mr. Burcu. Nobody but the Forestry Service, I guess, ever did. You use the term “seed trees” in there? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir; on the advice of the Forestry Service. Prob- ably they drew that regulation. Mr. Burcu. You provided by the regulations that only the large trees should be cut and that the small ones should be left standing, didn’t you? Mr. Warp. A provision something to that effect is in there. Mr. Burcu. Were you aware of the fact that that left matters open in such a way that the cream of the pine would be taken and the poorest left? I mean from the lumbermen’s standpoint. Mr. Warp. I do not think so, because if I recollect correctly those regulations also contain a provision that only such trees as were marked by the Forest Service shall be cut. Mr. Burcu. Precisely; but the Forestry Service was bossing this job in effect, weren’t they ? Mr. Warp. They had much to do with framing the regulations, but the Indian Office was bossing the job. Mr. Borcu. True; but if they furnished the ideas, and you merely rendered assent, they were really fixing the job. Mr. Warp. They were fixing the regulations. Mr. Burcu. You did not know when you fixed these regulations, did you, that that laid an abundant plant there for the lumberman to cut—taking it on the ideas of the Forestry Department—to cut from the lumberman’s standpoint, the large log containing wide plank, and the clearest and best of the pine with the least possible waste ? Mr. Warp. I did not, and I do not think so now. Mr. Burcu. Well, I am glad. I think your experience of that matter probably, from the thick forests of your native counties in Kansas, would prepare you well for a great service of that kind, from my observation. So we will go ahead. The long application of the Forestry Service and the experience of the foresters were in this, and you followed their regulations until somebody protested. Who was it that put these reasons that you formulated at that time, or did you know of any protest being made about that? Mr. Warp. About the regulations? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Warp. I do not recollect any. Mr. Burcu. Never heard any from Mr. Farr? Mr. Warp. I think Mr. Farr criticized them to some extent, but I am not just certain now to what extent, because it is eight years since I saw that letter. 2550 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Yes. Was there a big roar made—I am speaking now as a matter of forestry—about the hasty or short, brief notice for the sale of this timber? ; Mr. Warp. There was a roar made about the short notice. Mr. Burcu. Was not Mr. Leupp obliged at once upon his return to put off that sale for 60 or 90 days to give the lumbermen a chance? Mr. Warp. My recollection is it was extended twice. Mr. Burcu. Did you ever hear that the finger of scandal was pointed toward that. circumstance and the way in which this was advertised ? Mr. Warp. I did not. Mr. Burcu. Never heard that? Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. It did not reach to you? Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Were you ever called by anybody to know why you fixed so short a time, or didn’t you fix that short time? Mr. Warp. I think that was fixed—of course, I did not fix it; I think it was fixed by the common consent of the three gentlemen I have mentioned, after talking it over—Mr. Allen, Maj. Larrabee, and myself. And as I said before, it had been the policy of the Indian Office to sell timber at short notice. Mr. Burcu. Why? Mr. Warp. One reason was in order to save expense. Mr. Borcu. Of advertising ? Mr. Warp. Of advertising. And there was another instance. I believe it was Bad River. The sale was fixed just at the same time, and my judgment is that we followed that matter. Mr. Burcu. Wasn’t there great scandal about that? Mr. Warp. There was not. Mr. Burcu. Wasn’t there an investigation over it? Mr. Warp. There was not, that I ever heard of. Mr. Burcu. That went to the same parties who bought here— Stearn? Mr. Warp. That went to Stearn, but it went to Stearn after it was advertised ; there were several people bid on it—I have forgotten who—and the bids were all rejected. These were on what we termed new allotments, these on the Bad River. They were made after authority for him to purchase had been granted, and finally, as I recollect it, the bids were all rejected, and I think we got him up to $8 a thousand. Mr. Farr. Yes. Mr. Warp. Made him pay $8 a thousand for it. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Ward, the time when this sale should take place and the regulations under which it should take place, to be embodied in the contracts which should thereafter be drawn, were the consensus or collaboration of judgment of Mr. Larrabee, Mr. Allen, and yourself? ; Mr. Warp. And, probably, a representative of the Forestry Service. Mr. Burcu. And Mr. Cox? Mr. Warp. And the past experience of the office in making timber contracts, following, as I recollect it, practically the usual form of contract. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2551 Mr. Burcu. The usual time then was 20 days, or 25? Mr. Warp. Well, I would say about four weeks from the date of the first advertisement. Mr. Burcu. Now, how is this? Was that past experience in any way the work or by the assistance and opinion of the chief logger, Mr. Farr? Mr. Warp. I do not know whether he—yes; Mr. Farr was con- sulted in the Bad River proposition. Mr. Burcu. In these previous contracts? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Was that previous or subsequent ? Mr. Warp. That was in 1900—let me see. I think it was in 1903. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Farr has testified here—not testified, but shown here in evidence letters that he wrote to the department or telegrams that he sent protesting stoutly against this short notice; and Mr. Leupp—there is in evidence here a letter, or statement, a letter from Mr. Leupp to Mr. Farr stating that he was the first one who sug- gested this matter. Now, if that is so, how do you reconcile that with Mr. Farr’s having fixed the earlier regulations? Mr. Georce. Just clear that, please, a little bit. Mr. Warp. That Mr. Leupp suggested what in his letter? Mr. Burcu. Mr. Leupp wrote a letter to Mr. Farr, subsequent to the sale, which is in evidence here, crediting Mr. Farr with the first protest made against the shortness of the sale. Isn’t that true. Mr. Farr. That is correct, with the exception that the letter was written one day before the sale was advertised to take place—the bids to be opened. Mr. Burcu. Telegrams? Mr. Farr. Mr. Leupp’s letter was dated November 14; the bids were opened on the 15th. Mr. Burcu. That letter, Mr. Farr and Mr. George, was an ac- knowledgment that Mr. Farr first protested against this short notice and moved Mr. Leupp to extend that notice for 60 or 90 days, what- ever it was. You do not know of that circumstance? Mr. Warp. Probably I did at that time—undoubtedly I did at that time. Mr. Burcu. How do you reconcile that, then, with the previous assistance of Mr. Farr, in fixing a short notice like that? Mr. Warp. Because Mr. Farr participated in the matter with ref- erence to the sale of the Bad River, and there, as I recollect it, the timber was advertised two weeks. Now, if Mr. Farr was not con- sulted about this, he knew the situation, of course, far better than we did, and when he saw this notice, if he protested—and I assume he did—he immediately took it up, as was his duty if he thought the time was too short. : , 2 Mr. Burcu. Did you have the handling of the incoming mail rela- tive to this matter? Mr. Warp. It came to me. Mr. Burcu. Then, did you know, or do you recollect, Mr. Farr almost begged piteously to be allowed to come in here to the depart- ment and represent these matters to them? : Mr. Warp. I do not recollect about that, but if such a letter came “to the office— Mr. Burcu. Not one; more than one. 2552 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Warp. I do not care if there were thousands. They ultimately passed through my hands. Mr. Burcu. Do you know why he was not allowed to come in? Mr. Warp. I do not. Mr. Burcu. Do you know whether there was any consultation on that matter or any other orders received oy ce from anybody? Mr. Warp. Whatever reply was made to Mr. Farr was made under the instructions of the acting commissioner. Mr. Burcu. That was Mr. Larrabee? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, would that be true as to the time of the sale? Mr. Warp. What do you mean Mr. Boron. Putting it off. Mr. Warp. If the time was extended, you mean? Mr. Burox. Yes. a Mr.-Warp. Certainly. ~ Mr. Burcr. Or the fixing of the time of the sale. Mr. Warp. Certainly. Mr. Burcu. How did it come that, regarding Mr. Farr as your chief, as a guide, I might say, in timber matters, as an experienced timber man, he was not consulted in a matter of such great impor- tance as this nor his wishes respecting it followed ? Mr. Warp. I suppose that the acting commissioner simply con- sidered that in view of past experience in the business that we had to go by, and the assistance of the Forestry Service, it was not necessary. Mr. Burcn. But were these Indians that you were seeking to help out in the matter of immediate money—what particular Indians were they ? Mr. Warp. I was not seeking to help out any Indians. Mr. Burcu. You were anxious, you said, to get this work going that season. Mr. Warp. The office was; not me. Mr. Burcu. Who in the office? : Mr. Warn. Everybody that had anything to do with it. Here is the size of it. When the contract is signed and delivered, the lum- berman would be required to pay, I think it is $50 on the delivery of the contract after approval, and so much each year; I think it is 5 per cent of the estimated value of the timber each year until cut. Mr. Burcu. You hurried this sale up, not because you were look- ing after the interests of the lumbermen in getting to logging that fall and winter, but because the Indians wanted the money? Mr. Warp. In the first place, we were not looking after the interests of the lumberman. I think I stated that once. And in the next place, just as stated in that memorandum, we were anxious that, if the timber was to be sold, operations should be commenced during the logging season of 1905-6. Mr. Burcu. And that because of the Indians? Mr. Warp. Certainly. Mr. Burcr. Nothing else but the Indians? Mr. Warp. Nothing else. Mr. Burcu. When Mr. Leupp decided to postpone the time of sale, did you make any effort to persuade him that he was wrong? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 25538 Mr. Warp. I did not. Mr. Burcu. Or Maj. Larrabee, that you know of? Mr. Warp. Not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. Or Mr. Allen? Mr. Warp. Not that I know of. The Carman. Since the proceeds of the sale were to go into the United States Treasury and not to go to the Indians immediately, how could the Indians be interested in a hasty sale? Mr. Warp. It did not go into the United States Treasury. The proceeds from the sale of timber on allotted lands go to the allot- tee—to the Indian to whom the allotment is made. For instance, A. B. is an allottee. Now, on the signing and delivery of the con- tract, after it is approved down here by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, one part is delivered to the allottee. Then the purchaser is required to pay to the Indian, I think it was, $50—either $25 or $50. Then, say the contract runs for 10 years. Then he is required to pay 5 per cent each year of the estimated value of the timber until the timber is cut, when he pays the remainder, and this money is de- posited in a bank to the credit of the Indian. Mr. Burcu. To the agent? Mr. Warp. No, sir; to the credit of the Indian, and subject to the check of the Indian when countersigned by the United States Indian agent. It is the Indian’s individual money. The United States has not a thing in the world to do with it so far as ownership of the money is concerned. The Cuairman. The United States, through the Indian agent, is made a trustee for it just the same. The Indian could not get it until the Government’s agent on the ground consented that he might? Mr. Warp. Well, usually they were paid—I do not know how it is now—they were paid in some cases $10 a month, in other cases $20 a month. The Cuairman. At that time there were no competent Indians, or very few, on White Earth? Mr. Warp. Well, I do not know about that. The Cuarrman. That was before the passage of the Clapp rider? Mr. Warp. Oh, you mean they were under restrictions ? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Warp. Oh, yes; I think the act removing the restrictions was in 1906. The Cuarrman. 1906; yes. So that the money could not go to the Indian personally until the Government, through its agent, consented that it might? : : Mr. Warp. Mr. Chairman, under the—it could every cent of it be paid to him with the consent of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and he could be allowed to purchase a farm or anything else. The Cuarrman. The agent’s consent was the Government’s con- sent under the circumstances. Mr. Warp. Certainly. The Cuairman. He being the agent of the Government for that purpose ? Mr. Warp. Certainly, but the agent could not consent and could not pay the Indian more than $10 or $20 a month without the con- sent of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. 73822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-3, vol 2——66 2554 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. Was your office moved in any way by the belief that prices were then higher than they were going to be and it would be to the advantage of the Indian to sell while the prices were high? Mr. Warp. We thought that prices were just about as high then as they would be, and timber had increased in value. As I say, two years before—— The Cuairman. It was increasing because of the unexpected scarcity ? Mr. Warp. Scarcity; certainly. The Cuarrman. There was no reason to expect that the scarcity would disappear or grow less? Mr. Warp. No, sir. The Cuarrman. As time passed. It would probably be the other way. Are there any other reasons than those you have given that moved you and your associates to haste in the matter ? Mr. Warp. Not that I know of. _Mr. Burcu. My purpose in this matter, Mr. Chairman, was to fix the responsibility ee the sale or the proposed sale of this lumber and find out who had an agency in it previous to the time Mr. Leupp took a hand in it and postponed the sale. I think I have done so. I am not sure that there is anything more that I can ask or obtain from Mr. Ward. He has apparently exhausted his information on that subject and states who the parties responsible were. The Cuairman. You have stated, Mr. Ward, that the dead and down timber act was a scandal every time it was touched. Will you explain more fully what you mean by that? Mr. Warp. Under the act of 1889, with the consent of the Presi- dent made from year to year, we authorized the sale of timber on un- allotted lands. The law reads dead timber, standing or fallen. Now, we would advertise that we would sell within a certain area the dead timber standing or fallen, and we will say a contract was made with A. He had no right to cut-anything except the dead timber, whether it was standing or whether it was down. He did not have a right to cut a stick of green timber. They would go in and slash the timber right and left, and undertake to pay the Government for the use of the Indians at dead-timber prices, and the Commonwealth Lumber Co.—we made them pay—— Mr. Burcu. Pine River? Mr. Warn. That was back in the eighties. The Commonwealth Co. we made them pay—I think it was under the cutting of 1901-2—$118,000 for green timber they cut in addition to what thev had already paid. They had no right, understand, to cut green timber, but yet they did do it, and when we found out that they refused to settle we sued them, collecting something over $118,000. Mr. Merrrr. You are mistaken. It was Mr. Warp. I am not mistaken; it was $118,000. I think the exact figures were $118,024. Mr. Farr. I perhaps can settle the matter. I handled the case and discovered the trespass and scaled it up. There was 18,000,000 feet of green timber cut in an operation of 60,000,000 feet. This ae aunber was cut in lieu of dead, or they should have only cut it dead— WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2555 She Cuairman. That is, eighteen-sixtieths of what they cut was unlawfully cut? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir; 18,000,000 feet out of 60,000,000. I brought about settlements for over—about 6,000,000—and that finally resulted in a settlement with the Commonwealth Lumber Co. Mr. Ward is mistaken on that, by the fact that the action was brought for the lumber under a certain law where you can recover for the value of the lumber wherever you may find it. Our claim against them was something over $25,000. That hadn’t been paid, and I understand they secured that dead-and-down price for the green. We recovered a judgment very close to or something over $18,000 and costs, and that resulted in the repeal of the dead-and- down act; that is, the repeal followed after that. Mr. Warp. I may be mistaken is this, that we brought suit for the full value instead of for the second grade. The CHarrman. The amount recovered, then, was the difference in value between the green-timber value and the dead-and-down- timber value of what green timber had been cut? Mr. Farr. That is correct. They paid for the 60,000,000 feet at a dead-and-down price, and 18,000,000 I discovered to be green tim- ber, and I placed a green-timber value on it, and the $118,000 that Mr. Ward has in mind is a settlement in certain cases at Leech Lake that I brought about without going into court. Mr. Warp. Maybe that is it. It seems here that they collected something like $3,000 from Bonness & West. Mr. Farr. There were many cases involved in that. The Cuarrman. You speak of the dead-and-down-timber act hav- ing been repealed soon after this development. Has it been revived in any form since that time? Mr. Warp. I don’t believe the act of 1899 has been repealed. Mr. Meritr. We have the act of June 25, 1910, giving the au- thority to the department both as to green and dead-and-down tim- ber, both on allotted land and unallotted land. The Cuarmman. Have any sales been made under the new law? Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Have you any information as to how it is work- ing? Mr. Merrrr. It is working very satisfactorily, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. Do you speak as the result of investigation, or ao you say that from the fact that no complaints have reached the office ? Mr. Menrirt. I say it from the fact that no complaints have reached the office. ‘The law is worded so that the office can protect the inter- ests of the Indians. It isn’t necessary to go in and simply sell the dead-and-down timber, and it isn’t necessary under that act to sell all green timber. We can conduct the timber operations so as to conserve the timber interests of the Indians under that act. The Cuarruan. Could you point out briefly how it had that dou- ble-action. effect? It avoids the difficulties which existed under the old law? In other words, how do you keep the purchasers—the lumber companies—within proper lines; keep them from fudging? Mr. Merirr. Because under the present arrangement we have 2 larger forestry force, who can look after more carefully the timber interests where there are large logging operations to be conducted. 2556 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. Well, they must be better than they were then. The estimate read awhile ago, made by Sam B. Davis, shows that unless the employees now are more accurate and honest than he was you may know the real facts. Mr. Merrrr. I would like to say that we have a number of foresters in our service now who are graduates of forestry schools. Mr. Davis had absolutely no knowledge of forestry conditions, and he was not competent to do that work. Under the present conditions and under the present arrangement a man of Mr. Davis’s qualifications wouldn’t be sent to look after the timber interests. A man who is competent to look after the timber interests would be sent. The Cuarrman. The whole evidence, as I recall it now, does not attack Mr. Davis so much on his competency as on another line. It is difficult to see how any man with eyes in his head could have made the mistakes that he made in this estimate, where he writes down large quantities of certain kinds of wood on the White Earth Reser- vation, when there were very few trees of that kind to be found on the reservation. ; Mr. Burcu. So far as the evidence goes, I would like to read into the record now what I find we had not in the record as we supposed at first—the rider of 1904. ' The Cuarrman. The one that I was inquiring about ? Mr. Burcu. Yes. The Cuartrman. I don’t remember it in the record. Mr. Burcu. In which the witness states that he drew the paper? The Cuarrman. Yes; very well, do that. Mr. Burcu. From page 209 of the third volume (33 Stat., I.), at the foot of the page: The Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota to whom allotments have been or shall hereafter be made and trusts or other patents containing restric- tions upon alienation issued or which shall hereafter be issued therefor are, with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, hereby authorized to dispose of the timber on their respective allotments. Timber on the allotments of minors may likewise be so sold by the father, mother, or Indian agent or other officer in charge in the order named, and the Secretary of the Interior shall make such regulations for the disposition of the proceeds of'said sales as may be necessary to protect the interests of said Indians, including such minors. Mr. Gzorcr. Allow me to ask the date of that—when was that passed ? Mr. Burcu. April 21, 1904. This provides for the regulation as to the disposition of the memorandum which Mr. Ward and Maj. Larrabee and Mr. Allan; with the assistance of Mr. Cox, prepared, I suppose. In other words, Congress didn’t dispose in the act of the money, but it left it in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, and they drew the rules and regulations under which the money would be disposed of.. I don’t know of anything more unless some- body else has something. Mr. Farr. I want to make a correction of one statement made by Mr. Ward, with reference to the timber advertised for sale on the Bad River Reservation. I believe that that was under a very short notice. I was not consulted, and, in fact, did not know that the timber had been advertised until after the bids were opened. I then, together with Mr. Ward, brought about the sale at $8 a thousand. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2557 The timber hus formerly been sold at 65 cents for shingle timber and $2 for dead and down and Norway and $4 for white pine. The Cuairman. What character was that timber that you speak of; what grade was it, white pine? Mr. Farr. White pine and Norway. Mr. Burcu. Green? Mr. Farr. All kinds. Since I have had any connection with it I do not recognize any such thing as dead and down timber, because they take everything that is merchantable and scale it. Now, another expression to make Mr. Ward’s evidence perhaps a little more clear. After the time I entered the service up to the sale at White Earth, the Indian Office did not have any large sale of pine whatever except the one that I have just. mentioned, of the Bad River Reservation. The sales were very small, and the notice in such cases was short, and would be sufficient. Large sales had been conducted at about that time or a little before, I believe, by the General Land Office. Mr. Warp. Yes. Mr. Farr. And I insisted on the length of time in that case; and they originally offered the timber for sale to be removed within a year, and after something over 600,000,000 or 700,000,000 feet were involved I spent three weeks with the Commissioner of the General Land Office and the Secretary in getting the time for the removal of the timber extended. Mr. Burcu. The 600,000,000 or 700,000,000 feet would have been impossible to remove in something less than 10 or 15 years? Mr. Farr. I finally got them to extend it to five years. I was urging 10. The timber is not all removed at this date, and that was eight vears ago. The Caarrman. Why did the lumber companies buy so much tim- ber with such a short time limitation for its removal, when they must have known better than anyone the impossibility of removing it in that time? Mr. Farr. I am talking about the regulations in the advertise- ment, that that is the original draft. These changes took the place—— The CHarrman. Yes. Mr. Farr. It would have made a difference of several hundred million dollars. The CHatrman. What you mean is that the regulations under which it was advertised were impossible regulations? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir; and the purchaser, if he did bid at all, would throw in, as a factor of safety, perhaps $2 or $3 a thousand. Mr. Burcu. He would have to peddle it out to other people—— Mr. Farr. Well, it was impossible, that is all. Mr. Burcu. Yes; impossible. Mr. Farr. Now, there is another part of Mr. Ward’s statement with reference to rules and regulations. A large part of the rules and regulations, as quoted in his memorandum, is taken from the Forest Service. In fact, they prepared and had approved by the President the rules that appear in that memorandum and others. _I, for several years, was able to keep them out of the contracts. But they were finally, in certain cases, adopted by the Indian Office. To 2558 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. give one case in point, it was on the Bad River Reservation, requir- ing that they leave those seed trees, and it amounted to considerable on an allotment. It continued there for, I think, one or two log- ging seasons, and then I insisted that members of the Forest Service go on the ground with me, and when we arrived there we found the timber, after the other surrounding timber had been removed, was ‘blown down, and the company had removed its railway, and it was ‘a total loss. On the other hand, I hold that there isn’t any right or justice to require an Indian owning his own allotment to leave seed trees. The Cuarrman. What do you understand that phrase to mean? Mr. Farr. To leave seed trees? ‘The Cuarrman. The phrase “seed trees.” Mr. Faxr. It was to leave trees that would seed; that is, from them trees other trees would spring up. That was the theory. The Cuartrman. That would would be mature trees, then ? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir; and the wind would carry the seed over into this territory, and it would result in reforesting the cut-over district. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Farr, did you ever run across any of these for- estry-service men of that period outside of Mr. Bruce, who ever went farther into the woods than to go to a picnic? Mr. Farr. I wouldn’t care to say that. Mr. Bruce was a man of large experience. Mr. Burcu. I do not mean him. I except him. Mr. Farr. However, I don’t think he ever went through a school of forestry. He got his out in the woods. Mr. Burcu. Probably not. Mr. Farr. Many of the other boys I met there, or young men, perhaps, more properly speaking, had gone through a school of forestry, but had no experience in the woods, so far as I was able to observe, as to conducting logging operations and scaling logs and estimating timber. There is only one way you can acquire that infor- mation, and that is to get out and hustle for it. Mr. Burcu. May I examine him a little on this line, just as an interruption ? The Cuatrman. You may; we may want to go back to Mr. Ward later on. Mr. Burcu. Now, take those regulations in that particular case. As a mater of fact, Mr. Farr, and within your experience as a lum- berman, would it not have been true that under such regulations as that the timbermen—that is, the purchasers of this timber—would have been able to secure the best, the most desirable, of the mer- chantable timber there, and left standing that which in a commercial ne proud have been the poorest—that is, the least desirable in value ? Mr. Farr. Yes; as the rules and regulations stand; but I am cer- tain they would have been corrected before a contract had been en- tered into, as I suggested to Mr. Leupp, that in the event we received a satisfactory bid we should at that time make a new set of rules, or remodel, or take from and add to, and if the contractor refused to accept them we would then refuse the bid. Mr. Burcu. Yes; but Mr. Farr, I am planting my question on the apparent lack of knowledge of whoever drew these rules and regula- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2559 tions of the practical conditions. If they had been carried out what would have been the result? Mr. Farr. The regulations state clearly that you would have to leave the small timber, and that is always a class of timber that the purchaser is not anxious to take, and that you would also leave the old and defective timber. That is another class that is not desirable to the purchaser. As a result they would be getting the better class of timber and that only. Mr. Burcu. Now, once more. As another result you would have been leaving the refuse, as you term it, laying down there to burn, would you not; or would that have been piled up? Mr. Farr. No; that is a rule that originated Mr. Burcu. They wouldn’t have to take it anyway. Mr. Farr. I want to be fair; that is a rule that originated with the Forest Service. I believe they are entitled to credit for it, and it is in that regulation, and it is a good one. That provides that you shall burn up that waste stuff. The Cuairman. Of all trees cut down, big, little, old, or young? Mr. Farr. Yes; the stuff that is subject to fire. Of course, in the rules and regulations prepared by the Forest Service, in the General Land Office, in that general sale rule, it is particularly provided that they burn all stuff remaining on the ground as the result of the operation. I spent a long time in trying to get that rule modified, and we finally did. That would have perhaps reduced the stumpage value of the timber $1 a thousand, and perhaps more. The Cuarrman. What additional burden would that rule be upon them; that is, what would they be required to burn under it that they should not have been required to burn? Mr. Farr. To make that clear we will assume that a forty contains 600,000 feet of pine timber. If it is defective—“ funky ”—as is the case in many places, perhaps 100,000 feet of logs would be left on the ground; that is, logs that are defective, wet, and soggy, and it would be impossible to burn them by any natural means. It would require dynamite or oil, and they are harmless so far as the spread- ing of fire is concerned. And if a proviso was required to do that he would have to reduce the price that he could offer for the timber. The Cuarrman. Can their condition be determined only by cut- ting them down? . : Mr. Farr. Oh, no; it is evident to anyone experienced, certain defects in trees, but you, as a rule, have to cut down all the trees, for there may be good logs in every tree. Mr. Burcu. Higher up? Mr. Farr. Yes; he might, for instance, take a tree that would cut five 16-foot logs. In some instances we might take every log, and in others only one, and in others two, the balance being entirely defective or worthless. : Mr. Burcu. One more question, Mr. Farr. Is it not common ex- perience that where trees have been grown in a forest—a thick forest—a considerable portion of them have been cut, felled, and taken away, that that support which one gives to another by shield- ing it from the wind, when that timber is removed and the tim- ber is thinned out to the extent, we will say, of four-fifths of the standing trees, or three-quarters, you take the others, they are 2560 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. weak as against the wind and are liable, in fact almost certain, to be overturned or upturned by the wind and thus destroy the forest. The Cuarrman. In other words, Judge, they are suffering from a weakness which always accompanies overprotection ? Mr. Burcu. Yes. Mr. Farr. Yes; the reason you give, and others, you can figure in a number of cases that the trees will blow over. The soil has something to do with it, and the weather. You take it on the Bad River Reservation, it is a clay soil, rather hard, and the roots extend along the top and near the surface of the ground, and the tim- ber as a rule is heavy and thick, standing for years, and the foliage and stuff dropping from the trees cover up the roots. Then if you remove the surrounding trees, it is only a short time till the sun and the wind will leave a condition where you find that the trees stand with most of their roots exposed, and the wind that is fierce at all will blow them over. The Cuarrman. Isn’t it true that roots of a tree accommodate themselves and develop largely in proportion to the necessity for them; that they have a twofold purpose, that of feeding the tree and of bracing it? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And isn’t it true that the roots to the south and the west, the direction from which the prevailing winds come, are always larger and stronger than those in the other direction ? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir; that is generally true. The Cuarrman. That would account for the judge’s position largely—that where they were sheltered behind other trees, the neces- sity for that extra bracing would not exist? Mr. Farr. Yes, sir; the climate, as you say. That is what I was referring to, and the Bad River Reservation; the soil there is a heavy “ala, and that has a tendency—and there are other places where you have a light sandy soil, and the chances for a tree to ae standing when its neighbors have been removed are much etter. The Carman. Mr. Meritt, you had a matter that you wished attention brought to. Mr. Merrrr. I want to call your attention to the two sections of the act of July 25, 1910, that I referred to just a few minutes ago. The Cuarrman. What sections? Mr. Mrrrrr. Sections 7 and 8, found on page 857, volume 36 of the Statutes at Large. They are very short sections. The Caatrman. Read them. Mr. Merirr: Sec. 7. That the mature living and dead and down timber on unallotted lands of any Indian reservation may be sold under regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, and the proceeds from such sales shall be used for the benefit of the Indians of the reservation in such manner as be may direct: Provided, That this section shall not apply to the States of Minne- sota and Wisconsin. Sec. 8. That the timber of any Indian allotment held under a trust or other patent containing restrictions on alienation may be sold by the allottee with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, and the proceeds thereof shall be paid to the allottee, or disposed of for his benefit under regulations to be pre- scribed by the Secretary of the Interior. Those are the sections. No. 7 applies to tribal and unallotted lands, and section 8 applies to Indian allotments. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2561 The Cuairman. Does the proviso in section 7, which excludes Wisconsin and Minnesota, do so for the reason that all of the land is allotted land there? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. . The Cuairman. What is the purpose of it, if you know? Mr. Merirr. I don’t know the purpose, Mr. Chairman. That pro- viso was added when the bill was being considered by Congress. There is only one reservation that should be, in my judgment, ex- cluded from the provision of section 7, and that is the Menominee Reservation in Wisconsin. There is a special law applicable to that reservation. The Cuairman. Because it is a special and single experiment? Mr. Mertrr. Yes, sir; because of milling operations that are be- ing conducted there under the direction of the department. The CuarrMan. Have you had any experience with that part of section 7 which precedes the proviso since it was passed ? Mr. Mertrr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How do you think it works? Mr. Merirr. It has worked satisfactorily so far. The Cuairman. Can you think of any reason why these two States: should be excluded from its provisions? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; I can not. That proviso clause now is work- ing to the detriment of the Indians, because there is valuable timber interests in the Red Lake Reservation, and we are unable to dispose of that timber except under the dead-and-down act, because of this provision of the law. The department has submitted to Congress a draft of legislation recommending a repeal of this proviso. The Cuarrman. It doesn’t affect White Earth at all, does it—that ‘proviso ? Mr. Merirr. No, sir. The Cuarrman. That being allotted land? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. How much of the other reservations in those States are affected? Mr. Burcu. There aren’t any. You mean in Minnesota? The Cuarrman. Yes; and Wisconsin. Mr. Burcu. There are no other reservations in Minnesota. They are all ceded back, released to the Government, you know, by the Nelson Act. . The Cuamman. The White Earth and the Red Lake? Mr. Burcu. There are only those two reservations as such. The land was all given back to the Government to sell for the benefit of the Indians, except that which they took in individual allotments. The reservations are gone. The Cuarrman. Where they took individual allotments on the old reservations, they took then in lieu of the right at White Earth and Red Lake? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir. : The Cuarrman. There are no other reservations as reservations left in Minnesota ? Mr. Burcu. I think not. The Cuarrman. Leech Lake? Mr. Merrrr. We have Leech Lake, but those lands have been allotted, 2562 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. At Leech Lake? Mr. Merttt. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The land is there to be sold for the benefit of th Indians. Under the Nelson Act it has all been taken into the Gov ernment hands, and only they remove there who have to stay ther for their allotments. ; The Cuarrman. Do you agree with Mr. Meritt that the provis affects the Red Lake Reservation ? Mr. Burcu. I didn’t pay attention when he was reading. The Cuamman. The proviso excludes the reservations in Min. nesota and Wisconsin from the provisions of section 7, which pre: cedes the proviso. Mr. Burcu. What does section 7 provide? The Cuarrman. Mr. Meritt, will you kindly read it again? Mr. Burcu. You needn’t go any further; I agree with him in that respect. The CuarrMan. It does apply to Red Lake? Mr. Burcu. It does apply to Red Lake because it is a reservation and because it is not yet allotted. Mr. Mnrrrr. That is right. We have very valuable timber inter. ests, and this proviso clause prevents the department from handling the timber there for the best interest of the Indians. Mr. Burcu. I agree with you. Mr. Grorcr. Was the Indian Bureau counseled ? Mr. Meritr. The Indian Bureau was not counseled about this pro viso clause. Mr. Grorcr. Has the Indian Bureau come to any conclusion about this, as to why these States were excluded. Mr. Meritt. We have no exact knowledge as to why those State: were excluded. Mr. Georcr. Who introduced that act? Mr. Merrrt. It is known as the Indian omnibus act. Mr. Burke I believe, was responsible for a great many of the provisions, or 9 number of provisions of this act. The act contains many provision: which the department has been trying to get for a number of years: for instance, this provision here regarding the sale of timber—the department has been trying to get legislation of this nature for some time. Mr. Gores. Seven and eight? Mr. Meritt. Yes; sections 7 and 8. Mr. Gzoresr. But the proviso there? Mr. Merirr. Not the proviso. Mr. Georcr. Who introduced the proviso ? Mr. Merirr. I couldn’t tell positively. I would have to look ut the history of the legislation. Mr. Burcu. I have something more to ask Mr. Ward. From something you said it wasn’t made quite clear that you had knowl. edge of the oncoming Steenerson Act at the time you drew the ride of 1904. Did you prepare that Steenerson Act? Mr. Warp. I did not, and so far as I know it wasn’t prepared ir the office. Mr. Burcu. Do you know who prepared it? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 25638 Mr. Warp. I do not know. I prepared nearly all of the Indian legislation that there was prepared in the Indian Office. So far as I know the Steenerson Act was not prepared in that office. Mr. Burcu. Then it would probably have been the independent act of Mr. Steenerson himself? Mr. Warp. I suppose so. Mr. Burcu. Presumably. ee CHATEMAN: You had some question you wanted to ask, Mr. eupp ? Mr. Levurr. Mr. Ward, for the purpose of a correction in your testimony, I would like to refresh your recollection about that Chip- pewa commission: Wasn’t it Bishop Whipple, instead of Bishop ‘Marty, who was on that? Mr. Warp. I believe that is right. It was Bishop Whipple. Mr. Lever. Who put you in charge of lumber matters in the Land Division ? Mr. Warp. W. A. Jones. Mr. Leupr. And how long was Maj. Larrabee at the head of that division ? Mr. Warp. The Land Division? I think he became chief of that division in the later eighties or the early nineties. It was long before my time, anyway, in the office. ! Mr. Lever. Do you know what his reputation was with reference to protecting the Indians in all of these matters? Mr. Warp. He had the reputation of looking as carefully after the interests of the Indians as it was possible for any man to do. The CuHarrman. Mr. Leupp, I doubt very much the interest of taking a running shot at general reputation that way in the record. If that question is opened at all, I suppose it ought to be gone into more fully. A question of reputation, don’t you think? Mr. Leurr. I was only thinking, as Maj. Larrabee’s name has come up here continually—— The Cuarrman. Yes, I know; but this question of reputation, of course, in the first place, it ought to be general reputation; that is the only kind that is competent. Asking an individual this way a question as to reputation of somebody for a particular thing doesn’t give much light. : Mr. Leurr. I am perfectly willing to have it stricken out of the record. The Cuatrman. I do not ask that, but I wouldn’t notice it now if it were the first time. It is not the first nor the fifth time, but T hardly think it is a legitimate way to go at it. Take it the other way; suppose an enemy of the man that you speak of would come here, and we would ask him the same question, and he was to say his reputation was exceedingly bad. Do you think it would be a proper thing to go into the record? . Mr. Leupp. I should think just as proper as this. ; The Cuarrman. Just as proper as this; and I don’t think, unless his reputation is made an issue, that we ought to go into either of them. Mr. Lever. I thought, in view of the way the question was asked, that the committee would not object. However, may I ask one more guestion, which I will submit to you first, if you prefer ? The Cuarrman. Go ahead. 2564 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Lzvrr. Do you remember how Sam Davis came to be choser todo that work at White Earth? Mr.. Warp. My recollection is that the Indian agent said that h “couldn’t do the work, and that it would cost a considerable sum o! money for him to employ timber estimators to make the estimate and that we looked around to find somebody that was available—the special agent was not available—and that is the way he was selected Mr. Levrr. I have only one more question. The Cuarrman. You are not limited at all. Mr. Lever. All I wanted to know is, What was the custom in the office in those days with regard to handling a matter of this sort! In other words, was it individually thought out, or was the prece- dent of former years adhered to? Mr. Warp. The precedents of former years were followed as nearly as, practicable, and the general subject, of course, would be generally discussed where precedents, such as the form of contract, form of regulation, form of advertisement, and everything of that sort, would be considered and followed, unless there was some good reason why it should not be done. Mr. Lever. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. The CHarrman, Are you through with Mr. Ward now? Mr. Burcu. Yes, sir. (Witness excused.) Whereupon the committee adjourned to Monday, Marcb 25, at 1.80 o’clock p. m. SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D. C., March 25, 1912. The committee convened at 1.30 p. m., Hon. James M. Graham presiding. . TESTIMONY OF ROBERT G. VALENTINE—Continued. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, I think I passed by Genoa, Nebr., the teacher of which is Sam B. Davis. Do you recall that? ; Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. To the committee I desire to say this is the same Sam B. Davis who went to get up the first guess or the last guess of the White Earth timber. He is at present a school-teacher, appa- rently. What is at Genoa, Nebr. ? Mr. Vatentine. That is what we call nonreservation school, sir. Mr. Burcu. Just a school? Mr. VaLentTIne. Yes, sir. _ Mr. Burcu. No tribal funds—nothing of that kind? Mr. Vatentrine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is it an important station? Mr. Vatentrine. Yes, sir; 300 Indian children. Mr. Burcu. Three hundred ? Mr. Vatentrne. I think so; yes, sir—250 to 300; I think it is 300. Mr. Burcu. No timber to estimate there, is there? Mr. Varentine. Except in the form of cordwood, probably. Mr. Burcu. Well, I think we had gotten down— Mr. Grorcr. Are there any lands—— Mr. Vatentine. Hight farms. Mr. Georce. To support the school? Mr. Vatentrne. It is supposed to be for industrial purposes—to assist industrial purposes, and we are trying to make those farms help support the schools. Mr. Burcu. I think I had reached Jicarilla, N. Mex., had I not? Do you remember? Mr. Vatentine. I remember you spoke of Genoa. I do not re- member what the next one was. : : Mr. Burcu. Mr. Reporter, this is spelled J-i-c-a-r-i-l-l-a. [To the witness.] That is a place where there is a magnificent body of timber ? i Mr. VatenTIne. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. And some of it has been sold or is advertised for sale? Mr. Vaenttne. Some of it was sold a month or more ago— 130,000,000 feet, if I recall correctly—and there is another bunch of 30,000,000 that is up for sale on the 29th of this month. 2565 2566 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Does that exhaust their timber ? Mr. Vatentine. Then there is another big bunch of 110,000,000 feet that is not up for sale at the present time? Mr. Burcu. Not for sale? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. — Mr. Burcu. May I inquire how much was gotten for this Jicarilla timber ? Mr. VaLentine. I think it was $3 for a period of three or two years—I have forgotten the exact time; and $3.50 after that. Mr. Burcu. Was it bought by the Denver people—the New Mexico Lumber Co. ? Mr. Vatentine.. I do not recall who bought it, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, is there any ‘trouble in connection with Jica- rilla—these Jicarillas are Apaches, are they ? Mr. Vatentine. They are called Jicarilla Apaches. Mr. Burcu. How many of them are there? Mr. Vatenting. About 800. Mr. Burcu. Do you have any scandals or troubles in connection with them ? Mr. Vatentine. We have some troubles. One of the reasons for making this sale of timber is that the Indians have been upon a starved industrial basis, as well as suffering from want of food supply. We thought it very necessary to get funds by which we could get them moving industrially. Mr. Burcu. Have you had actual trouble with them? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any trouble with them; no, sir. Their condition as to health is very poor. I think there is a great deal of tuberculosis and some trachoma there. In fact, throughout the Southwest, the committee will be interested in knowing, the per- centage of trachoma is higher than in Minnesota. Mr. Burcu. Higher than Minnesota? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then it must include practically all of them? Mr. Vatentine. I think in some sections it runs as high as 75 per cent. Mr. Burcu. Have these people any hospital ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; they have not. Mr. Burcu. Have they an agency? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; there may be a small hospital, or room used as a hospital, at the agency; I do not recall. Mr. Burcu. Have they irrigation? Mr. Vatentine. There has been some slight attempt made at irri- gation, but I think they have got nothing substantial in that line. Mr. Burcu. Is it in the headwaters of the Rio Grande? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. On the Colorado headwaters? Mr. Vatentinz. There is a river which runs through there. I think it is the Chama. It is not named on this map [indicating map upon committee table], but I think that is the river. Mr. Burcu. The timber is just south of Colorado? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. In New Mexico? Mr. Vatenting. Yes, sir; in New Mexico, on the Colorado line. That river is spelled C-h-a-m-a. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2567 Mr. Burcu. Now, here is Kaibab——- Mr. Grorcz. Just before you leave that, and in reference to trachoma. I would like to ask why there is so much trachoma among the Indians. How does it come that so many of these In- dians have that dread disease? Mr. VatentineE. There have been a good many theories advanced Mr. George, as to how it came in there. Of course, as you know, i a man lands at Ellis Island, in New York, he is deported if he is even suspected of having trachoma; and so it was a great shock to find that we had these great infested centers in this country. Some claim it has come in from Mexico and started from the Southwest. Mr. Georcs. Does it prevail in New Mexico? Mr. Vatentine. A great deal of it is in New Mexico, but how it got into the Northern tribes I do not know. r. Grorce. Of course, it is a native disease—not indigenous to this soil ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Georce. The doctors tell us trachoma came from the Nile hoa and it may have come in through immigration to Mexico and then up. Mr. Vauentine. And then up; but just how it covers—there seems to be a rather surprising gulf of freedom from that up through the middle of the country like this. [Indicating on map.] Mr. Gzorcr. Running east and west? Mr. Varenrine. Yes, sir; and how it reached the northwest is somewhat of a mystery. I suppose that this should be said, however, that it is, as you know, a very infectious disease, or contagious—I am not sure; I think it is infectious, bacterial. The Cuairman. I think it is infectious. Mr. VaLentine. Very infectious, and that if it once got started in one case in an Indian community it, would spread with fearful rapid- ity, because of the conditions of life in which the Indians live. The Cuarrman. In that community ? Mr. Vatentine. In that community. The Cuarrman. How does it happen to get into other Indian com- ‘ munities? Mr. Vatentrne. I think in the past a very great deal of it has been carried from the schools—children from different sections going to the schools and then carrying it back. The Cuarrman. That might explain it. . Mr. Vatentine. I would also like to say, in that connection, that Dr. Murphy, the chief of our medical service, is in town, and I would appreciate very much, if the committee are interested in this particu- lar subject, if they could have him before them for a short time on the general health conditions of the country. The Cuarrman. We would like very much to have him. Has he made a report of his recent visit to White Earth? — op Mr. Vatentine. I have asked him to give me his preliminary re- port so that you could have it at this time. The Cuarrman. We would like to have not only Dr. Murphy, but his report. Mr. Burcu. Have you the report? 2568 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. This is the report. I will hand to the stenogra- pher for the record at the present moment—— ; Mr. Burcu. Before I forget it, I received a letter indicating or containing advertisement for proposals for a new hospital at ite Earth, published by your bureau and the Interior Department. May I inquire about the capacity supposed to be furnished by this pro- posed hospital ? Mr. Vatenting. I do not think I could tell you offhand. I do not recall at this moment what the capacity is. Mr. Burcu. You know of a bill introduced in Congress by Repre- sentative Miller, of Minnesota ? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Providing for a $100,000 hospital at White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. A hospital adopted already by the Interior De- partment will be sufficiently ample to accommodate the necessary patients on White Earth, without the passage of that bill; in other words, to supersede or rather precede that bill? Mr. Vatentine. I think the idea of the office was that this was to be available to use at the present time, and either an extension of this could be made, if necessary, or another hospital somewhere else erected. The Representative Miller bill, as I understand it, pro- vides not merely for a hospital for the White Earth Indians, but for a hospital to be located at some central point, for all the Chippewa Minnesota Indians. i The Cuairman. I think that is right. On that point, Mr. Valen- tine, has the bureau determined on plans for a hospital at White Earth? _Mr. Vatentrnz. To the extent of the money now available; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How much is that? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is about $20,000. The Cuairman. What is the plan adopted—is it with reference to the hospital ? Mr. Vatentine. It is those precise things that I think Dr. Murphy could tell you better, sir, than I; and that is one reason I mentioned his being here. Mr. Grauam. I wanted to get your judgment on a question of hos- pital policy. We found on the reservation there a very strong feel- ing among the full-blood Indians, more particularly those at Pine Point and Round Lake, averse to going to a hospital at White Earth. They say that is the mixed bloods’ country, and they do not get a square deal up there, and they donot like to go so far away from their homes and from the other and greater portion of the full-blood Indians. Now, how is it with reference to a policy of establishing more than one hospital on the reservation and meeting this local feeling I speak of? Mr. Vatenrine. That is always my preference, sir. Of course I am stating the general principle now—getting the hospital facilities as near the particular groups of Indians as possible. The Cuatrman. It would be more expensive, but more effective. Mr. Vatentine. More effective, and I think we owe it to them in connection with general industrial and school progress not to take them away. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2569 The Cuarrman. If that policy were pursued, how many hospitals should be located on White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. I should say, offhand—— The Cuarrman. Three? Mr. VaLentine. That there should be at least three. Mr. Burcu. Two besides White Earth? The CHarmman. White Earth, and one each to accommodate Round Lake and Pine Point? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuarmman. And another in the north? Mr. Vatentine. And another in the north. The Cuarrman. You have this difficulty, then, in getting the full- blood Indians to leave their homes at Pine Point and attend the little hospital now at White Earth? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think there has been such difficulty appeared, but, as a general rule, there is a great deal of difficulty along that line. Indians are peculiarly subject to homesickness, and that retards their improvement. The Cuairman. When you put that feeling on the one side and the better sanitary conditions and the better hospital service that you get by having one large, central building, and thus saving in super- intendence and drainage and a great many ways on the other, which plan would you consider the better one? Mr. VaLentIne. On the whole, sir The Cuarrman. The divided hospitals or the single one? Mr. Vatentine. On the whole, I should consider the divided plan the better. Mr. Burcu. Have you any idea of the village plan—that is, a place where the doctors would gather or live, where people would come to receive treatment; but they could stay in their own shacks or cot- tages and on their own land in the immediate vicinity—small allot- ments of 3 or 4 acres apiece? Mr. Vatentine. I had not thought of small allotments of 3 or 4 acres apiece, but I had thought of the plan, for instance, at Pine Point. When I was there I visited some of those people in their homes around Pine Point. There are some of those people whom it would be almost inhuman to take away from their homes; but there certainly ought to be a local point to which they could go or from which a physician could reach them to treat them, and, as you under- stand, Mr. Chairman, the “after treatment,” as it is called, in con- nection with trachoma is the most important part, almost, of the whole operation. The Cuamrman. Explain more fully what you mean by that. Mr. Vatentine. When the doctor operates for a case of trachoma, the ideal way is to follow up that operation by what is known as the “after treatment ”—that is, a treatment by a nurse. The patient no longer needs a doctor, but he does need the treatment by a nurse for quite an extended period, and if the operation merely is performed and the nursing not given the chief benefits are lost. The Cuairman. The operation that you speak of is for the pur- pose of removing the granules? 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2-67 2570 WHITE EARTA RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. They roll the eyelid back, and with some infinitely sharp nippers cut off this growth under the lid. The Cuairman. Our brief experience there indicated that the In- dian is a very poor person to call in the doctor, and that he usually does not do it until it is too late for the doctor to accomplish much good. Now, would it be feasible to establish a system on the reser- vation somewhat on the Chinese plan—that is, that it is the doctor’s business to keep the patient well, and not cure him when he gets ill? Mr. Varentrne. That would be the ideal plan. The Cuarrman. In other words, that it would be the duty of the doctor to visit the homes of the Indians at periods of not more than so far apart. Mr. Vatentine. That would be absolutely the ideal plan, sir; and that is what we have in mind and what we propose to accomplish by the house-to-house canvass which we are trying to make. The Cuatrman. How much additional medical force would be necessary on White Earth to accomplish such a system ? Mr. Vatentine. Offhand, I should say that to do that as it ought to be done we should have at least a dozen physicians, The Cuarrman. Instead of three, as now ? Mr. Vatentine. Four now. The Cuairman. Four now? Mr. Vatentine. I think the report says four. I do not know whether I explained fully, Mr. Chairman, the reasons why I prefer the more expensive and in some ways less efficient segregated plan, but I do not care to delay the hearings at this time unless you want my reasons on that point. The Cuairman. It would be well 'to put it in in connection with the statement. Mr. Vatentine. It is simply that I have a feeling that everything possible should be done for the Indians at or near their homes, and that the human side of the problem is even more important. That, perhaps, will indicate my mind on that, and I would be glad to go into it more in detail at any time. Mr. Georcr. Before we leave this subject, I would like to get just a trifle of information, so that we will understand what we are about when Dr. Murphy comes. In this preliminary report he says that the percentage of trachoma on White Earth, taking the various districts, amounts to 26.4 per cent; and then he makes a comparison with the trachoma in other parts of the Indian country all over the country. He gives for Carlisle 18.8 per cent, and he gives to points or places in California where apparently no trachoma exists whatever—Big Pine, Cal., and Independence, Cal., and at Bishop, Cal., only 2 per cent; and he gives several points in Okla- homa—Kaw, Okla., 40 per cent; Kiowa, Okla., 95 per cent; and Rainy Mount School, 85 per cent. Does he mean that exactly as it appears there? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely, sir. Mr. Gzorcr. Ninety-five per cent of all the Indians there have trachoma ? Mr. Vatentine. More or less infected; yes, sir; conditions are simply fearful. Mr. Georcr. All right. We want to examine him on that. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9571 Mr. Vatentine. May I have that preliminary report? That is our office record, and I will be glad to submit a copy for the record any time the committee wishes it. Mr. Burcu. I call your attention now to Kaibab. Mr. VatentIne. Kaibab? é Mr. Burcu. Kaibab, Nev, Mr. Vatentine. That is Utah, sir? Mr. Burcu. Arizona, I mean. Mr. Vatentine. Arizona? Kaibab is in Utah. Mr. Burcu. It is almost up to the border of Utah, then, or quite. What is that—-Apache or Mojave? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is probably Paiutes. Mr. Burcu. Do you know anything about that, offhand? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall that particular problem there. Mr. Burcu. Do they have valuable oil, mineral, or timber lands? Mr. Vatentine. They are very small reservations. Of course, it is near the oil country. There is a good deal of oil along the eastern edge of Utah, there, I believe, or claimed to be. They have some irrigation but not, so far as I know, any timber to speak of. Mr. Burcu. Numerically, how large is the reservation? Mr. Vatentins. That is a small bunch of Indians. [After a pause.] Eighty-three. Mr. Burcu. Only 83 Indians. Now, I call your attention to Kaw, Okla. That is the same place where the 95 per cent of trachoma exists. Mr. Vatentine. It has a very large percentage of trachoma. Mr. Grorcr. It was the highest ? Mr. Vatentine. Kaw, Okla., was 40.9 per cent. Mr. Burcu. Oh, is that all? What are they called? Mr. Vatentine. They are Kaws; that is their tribe. Mr. Burcu. What family? Mr. Vatentine. The Kaw Tribe; I do not know what family. Mr. Burcu. Kansas Indians, I suppose? Mr. Vatentine. I think so, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is there any trouble in connection with them or is there trouble all over Oklahoma? Mr. Vatentrine. Well, generaly speaking, there is trouble all over Oklahoma. Mr. Burcu. All the tribes and bands of tribes in Oklahoma have more or less troubles, have they not? . Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. I would not mean by that to indicate that they are any worse than many other places in the country, but they have got their share. : : Mr. Burcu. That relates as well to property interests—claims against the Government—as to health, sanitary conditions, and charges of wrong doing? : Mr. Vatentine. Speaking generally; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Generally, it is prevalent all over Oklahoma? _ Mr. Vatzntine. A good deal of it—a great deal of it; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I will pass from that. We may as well consider that as a fact. Now, here is the Keshena, Wis., matter. What is that? — Mr. Vatentine. That is the Menominee country, where the Neopit Mills are. 2572 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. That is where the $1,000,000 was lost on the mill man- aged by Mr. Nicholson ? Mr. Vatentine. Nicholson. Mr. Burcu. For the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. As a representative of the Government. Is the mill keeping even now, or is it still running behind ? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is earning a little money now. Mr. Burcu. Besides getting some stumpage for the timber? Mr. Vatentine. Of course, we are manufacturing there; we are not selling any stumpage. Mr. Burcu. Well, I say: Mr. Vatentine. Oh, yes; we have, ef course, stumpage accounts. Mr. Burcu. You mean by that that it is paying something and its operating expenses in addition to a fair price for the Indians for their timber, is that it? Mr. Vatentine. The account—I can give you the exact statement of the account if you would like it—but it was reported to me last fall that for the first time the mill was on the money-making basis; and that, of course, takes. into account all expenses and the proper payment of interest on the funds withdrawn from the Treasury and stumpage and everything else. Mr. Burcu. But before it did get on a paying basis, it was sup- posed to have lost a million dollars or more for the Indians? Mr. VaLentine. That statement has been made. I think that is an incorrect statement. Mr. Burcu. You think it is? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, indeed. Mr. Burcu. That was investigated at one time by several Sena- Mr. Vatentine. Yes; I believe a committee went up there. Mr. Burcu. Which committee was that? Mr. Vatentine. It was a committee of the Senate, I believe. . Mr. Burcu. Who did it consist of; do you remember? Mr. Vatentine. I think Senator La Follettee, Senator Clapp, and Senator Page, of Vermont, if I recall correctly, were the three Sena- Mr. Burcu. Did they publish a report—is their report published? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Is Nicholson a direct selection of the President? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Of yours? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Nicholson? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Now, this Senate committee did not, as I have said, as I recall.it, make a report. They published the proceedings before the committee, but, as I recollect, they made no findings of fact from those hearings. Mr. Burcu. They simply published the testimony they took? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. In a general way, I would like to state to the committee that that reservation presents to-day one of the biggest problems we have in the way of administration on behalf of a conservation proposition and Indian logging proposition and an Indian industrial proposition, and a great many of the losses WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 9573 which have undoubtedly existed, and also an inheritance which has very much burdened operations there and will continue to burden them for a long time to come. Mr. Burcu. What is that inheritance? Mr. Vatentine. The manner in which the logging was done in past times, which resulted in charging the present operations with what might be likened to watered stock. Mr. Bukcn. I received a letter this morning from a prominent at- torney of Wisconsin, so known to me, charging that they also had a very large contention with the State of Wisconsin over the swamp- land proposition, it being claimed that the State of Wisconsin was represented here by influential and powerful agents, claiming these lands as belonging to the State under the Federal proposition, for primary-school lands as well as swamp lands, for internal improve- ment purposes, and that the Indians were apparently defenseless— that is, had nobody representing them, and that they claimed te have great fear—the intelligent ones among them—that the State would get away unjustly from them large quantities of their reser- vation. Do you know anything of that? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. ce Burcu. Is that correct—that is, is there such contention as that? Mr. Vatentine. Well, there may be such a contention. I do not know about that, but the situation, as I understand it, is that on the Menominee Reservation there are both swamp and school lands, and on the Bad River Reservation there are both swamp and school lands, and in other places also in Wisconsin. The matter has been one that dragged along before the department for years. The gen- eral subject, if I recall it to memory correctly, is now in court, and there have been several attempts made to get legislation. Mr. Burcu. What court? Mr. Vatentine. The United States district court up there. There have been various bills proposed in the Congress which would au- _thorize the Secretary of the Interior to compromise these contending claims between the Indians and the State, Judge, and there has been some very strong contentions made and the office has taken the view that the matter never would be or could be finally settled until it was settled in court; that any compromise would still leave a claim lying against the Government on the part of the Indians, in all likelihood, so that we have protested against taking this matter out of court. Mr. Burcu. Are you quite sure it is in court? Mr. Vatentine. It is in court, and I think the Department of Justice is handling it. There are four test cases that involve all these cases. They were brought on some allotments on the Bad River Reservation. & fens ; : Mr. Burcu. Is it in the western or eastern district of Wisconsin— at Milwaukee or Madison? . ; Mr. Vartzentine. You would be more familiar ‘than I with that, Judge. Mr. Burcu. No; I am not familiar. I want to find out about it. If it is in court I would like to know about it, because it is charged it is not in court, and this man I would expect would have had a hand in putting it in court. 2574 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I remember of signing a letter for the depart- ment, or rather initialing a letter for the Secretary to sign, asking that those cases be expedited, calling attention to the very great in- terest involved. I used the word “ interest” without any malicious intent. Mr. Burcu. I will look it up. Mr. Vatentine. But which court that was in, I could not tell ou, sir. : Mr. Burcu. It is rather on the east side than the west side, is it not, of Wisconsin ? , Mr. Vatentinr. The Menominee Reservation is rather to the east of Wisconsin, and the Bad River is rather near the western northern part of the State. Mr. Burcu. I have not any map of the United States. I wont bother the committee any more about that; but I received a letter this morning indicating there was an immense claim there, and I did not understand it was in the courts and that the Indians were ap- parently unrepresented. Mr. Vatentine. I think there have been some cases where some of the timber, owing to fires or blow-downs it has been necessary to cut some of the timber, and the money held in escrow pending the: . ultimate decision. Mr. Burcu. It must be so; but it was claimed that the interests involved are purely on account of swamp lands and not timber. Mr. Vatentine. There is a good deal of good timber on both swamp and school lands. Mr. Burcu. If you do not know about it, I had better not take the time to ask you. Mr. Vatentine. I mean part of all I do not know is the line be- tween the eastern district and western district of Wisconsin. Mr. Burcu. The Kickapoo of Kansas? Mr. Vatentine. That has been the scene of scandal for years. Mr. Burcu. Over what? Mr. Vatentine. Over the “ Mexican,” as it is called, Kickapoos; that is, the branch of the Kickapoos that has gone to Mexico to live, and the ones that have stayed at home, in connection with the alleged fraudulent sales of their allotments. Mr. Burcu. Was that the case in which Mr. Careful, of the De- partment of Justice, was operating as special attorney ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I will pass that, because I know it is being looked after as well as possible. Mr. Vatentine. That is the point to which Mr. George just called attention, where Dr. Murphy’s report states that among the Indians of the reservation there is 95 per cent affected with trachoma. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund? Mr. Vauentinz. Yes, sir; nearly four millions, in company with the Comanches and Apaches. Mr. Burcu. Have they allotments? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. How many of those Indians are there? Mr. Vauentine. About 3,000 of the three tribes, if I remember correctly. Mr. Burcu. That are participants in this tribal fund? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2575 Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they any hospital? Mr. Vatentine. They are trying to get one now. a Burcu. From whom—from Congress or from the depart- ment ¢ Mr. Vatentine. From tribal funds, but Congress has to appropriate out of the tribal funds for that purpose. Mr. Burcu. Then, with $4,000,000 in sight and 95 per cent of them afflicted with trachoma they have not yet been able to secure a hospital? Mr. Vatentine. With the Indians themselves protesting against the hospital—that is, the use of their money; they do not want their money used for it. That is one of the points where this segregation of tribal funds comes up most urgently. There is a bill before Con- gress now providing for the segregation of a large part of these funds. That is also one of the points where there has been some of te most pressing difficulties in the nature of traders’ claims for pur- chases. Mr. Burcu. Does that involve scandal? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir.. Mr. Burcu. Are they regularly appointed Indian traders or mer- chants in the vicinity ? Mr. Vatentiner. Both kinds. Mr. Georcr. Judge, will you please explain what he means by the segregation of funds? Mr. Burcu. The division of funds, you mean? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. What I mean is—I think we spoke of it briefly, in passing, the other day—it is a policy that has long been advocated by the Indian Office and Board of Indian Commissioners. I believe, and many other people. It means that after making due allowance for necessary administrative purposes and proper claims, taking the tribal funds now in the Treasury of the United States and segregating them—now they are to the credit of the tribe as a whole—to the credit of the individual Indians, thereby removing one of the chief “baits” on the part of people who always at- tempt to get something for nothing from Indians,’ and we feel that that segregation of those funds would then place to the credit of each individual Indian his share of the tribal fund and enable him to use it, if competent himself, or if not competent himself, under proper supervision. Mr. Gzorcr. Do you mean allotment of the funds? : Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the allotment of the funds precisely like the allotment of the lands. ; Mr. Gzorcr. Would not that operate in a regular commercial sys- tem being established among the people who got in with these segre- gated Indians and set them to work to make it appear to the depart- ment that they were capable of handling their funds and getting the funds turned over to them by strong but fabricated showing? — Mr. Vatentine. Oh, it would undoubtedly lead to that; but it is just a question of having backbone and intelligence enough to re- sist it. Mr. Grorce. That is just—— ; Mr. Vatentine. But it is less of a pressure than is brought to bear on the tribal funds as a whole. For instance, the existence of 2576 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. tribal funds as a whole led to the one Indian per capita payment system, which is a splendid way of absolutely letting a few million dollars now and then disappear as through a sieve; for instance, the very funds—— The Cuarrman. What was the phrase? ; ; Mr. Vatentine. “ Disappear as through a sieve”—the per capita payment system. Mr. Georcr. That is, paying out a large amount of money and saying that so much should come from each Indian. | Mr. VaLentIne. $40 or $80 or $100, as the case might be, to each Indian; and before you know it you will spend $1,000,000, which, kept together, may be used for some great improvement, but if segre- gated you will be helping the individual. You simply hand it out and it goes for everything—unnecessary projects and one thing and another. Mr. Grorce. Let’s see if I understand. Here is $4,000,000, and the question is whether it shall be paid over to the Indians in small allotments of $10 a head or $50 a head or $100 a head, now and again, or whether the whole amount shall be allotted among the Indians and each allotment kept segregated for such uses of the Indians as the department might see fit. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think you have the idea exactly right. Mr. Georez. The segregation being the preservation of each man’s amount ¢ Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the ideal plan being first to allot an Indian with land and get him land and a home; then take what money belongs to him and his family and see that he uses it for investment purposes on that home, to get started to build a house, to buy horses, to buy seed, and that he does not use it merely to live on for food and clothing, and with the day sure to come when he will be bankrupt without having got a start. Mr. Grorcs. Does not this invite the kind of schemes on the part of those who anticipate the day that the Indians shall be permitted to use their money ? Mr. Vatentine. But it is made an offense to make any contract with an Indian regarding the amount or the proceeds that may come from their lands, and it should be made so in regard to these moneys. Mr. Grorcs. Is it so? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think it is. You see, there has never been any segregation scheme put through. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, to this very White Earth matter there was an act passed June 25, 1910, that is two years ago last June, forbidding persons from purchasing from minors—approaching minors—to purchase from them, or anything of the kind—a general act, but applying, of course, to the White Earth Reservation, but as soon as passed it only seemed to incite grafters, and they seemed to be more persistent in their attempts upon these minors than ever, even invading Indians schools like this one up here at Carlisle, for this purpose. They do not pay any more attention to the Fed- eral laws about those things than if they were nothing. And then it appears in the testimony in this case that when it came to show- ing the Secretary that Indians were capable of doing business for themselves, before the passage of the Clapp Act, in order to obtain the right to sell their property, since the passage of the Clapp Act, WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2577 under the second paragraph of that act, that all on earth they had to do was to get up a couple of affidavits and send them down here with the recommendation of the Indian agent, and in some manner or other those would get expedited and put through and the Indians be declared competent—people who were scarcely more competent than a little child. Mr. Vatentine. Why would the Indian agent send them through? Mr. Burcu. Why ? Mr. VaLentINne. Yes, sir. Mr. Bercu. You ask me a difficult question. Ife has not ap- peared before this committee to explain; he saw fit not to explain. I can not tell you why, but it is claimed that a very great number of cases of this kind exactly occurred where Indians were not com- pe at all and where the affidavits themselves were, in a sense, forged. Mr. Vatentinge. Whether anything of that sort can be attacixed under the law I do not Imow; but an agent who would send along recommendations of that kind is guilty of the most damnable falsity to his trusteeship. Mr. Burcu. So we thought; but he has gone. Mr. Varentine. I do not know what you refer to. but I make no hesitancy in using that statement. I mean it is the business, above all others, of a superintendent to know the Indians at his place and know who is who and what is what. Mr. Burcu. What practical means, now, would you suggest, with all this quantity of Indians and 150 reservations if there were that many, thus affected? How are you going to safeguard those in- terests? Here is the Secretary of the Interior in Washington, and somebody must be his legal official; that is, his duties must, so far as the Indian Bureau is concerned, come down to the Indian Bureau, and you again must delegate those same duties to men, as we might term it; that is, men lesser officially than you; and here somebody comes in and says, “This man is plainly so and so; here is an affidavit.” And that official to whom it is ee eer a clerk—looks it over, and says that is according to precedent; that showing is according to precendent—and he passes upon that with approval. Now, suppose your agent is all the while betraying these very words of his instead of standing by them, do you con- sider it would be wise, under such circumstances, to pay that man’s money out of the Treasury to him—the whole of it, and let him have and do with it—— Mr. Vatentine. Of course not, sir. ; : Mr. Burcu. On paper the proposition looks good, I admit, but in reality apparently the way it is worked under this Indian system, because everybody is so far off and not held to a bonded responsi- bility—now, I speak strongly when I say “bonded responsibility.” These evils occur. Had it never occurred to you, for instance, that on a reservation like the White Earth, not merely a board of men of high character should pass upon these matters, but every one of them should be bonded heavily or held to some personal, official re- sponsibility, in order to safeguard these Indians? Instead of hav- ing this far-away, delegated down, down, down process of doing business, the same as we have had in the White Earth—in other. words, have you not had apprehension—I do not want to make a 2578 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. stump speech or ask an argumentative question—of the practical working out of this from practical past experience? ane Mr. Vatentine. Of course, I can not answer the question in the way you have put it, because it is so long, but I think I can meet your mind in the matter. First, I will say this, as I have already said in my last annual report—the lands and the money of the In- dians offer a “ bait that the most satisfied fish won’t refuse it.” You are not going to get anywhere by assuming that this attempt to get lands and money away from the Indians while they have got any lands and money, under whatever form they hold or under what- ever kind of administration they are supposedly safeguarded. The first thing for the Government to tackle, or Congress and the ad- ministration of the country, is to decide what course, if it can be put through rightly by safe men, will be for the best interests of the Indians; and having decided what course is the right one to take, then decide what machinery is necessary to safeguard that course. But you are not going to get anywhere—I think your ques- tion would lead to that inference—by failing to do the right thing, just because if you do it that may offer even a more tempting “ bait.” Because of that holding the money up in the Treasury you might as well bury it in the ground and put dynamite under it or put it where nobody can get hold of it. The point is to make this money and the lands do the Indians good and then see that the machinery is provided by which it will get to them and not to the grafter. Mr. Burcu. You have just answered the proposition that has been gradually working itself out in my mind. You have heard, I presume, of “first catching the rabbit.” It strikes me that any proposition—and I want to call your attention to it so that you may meet that in any form you choose—which. looks to fidelity to trust upon the part of officials that is not enforced and even then placed in the hands of the honest men that you speak of—ideal honest officials that you speak of—is worse than no proposition at all. In other words, is it not, in your opinion, better to leave the money where it is—unsegregated ? Mr. Vatentine. No; because you can not escape the man who is after it, either way. If you are going to follow out your line of rea- soning, the best you can do is to go down to the Treasury, authorized by act of Congress, and get that money and lose it in the Chesapeake Bay, if ay want to lose it where neither the Indians or the grafters can get it. Mr. Burcu. Would it not attract. more attention to get a measure through Congress to steal a large, lump sum of $4,000,000 in some form or other, or at least deprive the Indians of it—I will put it in a milder and more proper form—than it would to effect legislation by which each Indian could be attacked singly; that is, each Indian could be dealt with singly? For instance, men come down here and try to ae through a proposition by which they will get a large por- tion of $4,000,000 through Congress. Congress would scan with great care such a measure. Suppose they come down here with a spurious proposition to divide that $4,000,000 among 3,000 Indians or 4,000 Indians. They get that proposition through, and then the grafters begin to flock in there to comply with the law that is appa- rently attempted to be safeguarded. ‘They strike in to get an agent who is amiable and complacent and not oversharp-sighted appointed. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2579 They then proceed to approach each particular Indian and get the proper starting point from him, and then they put up all manner of imbecile witnesses and all manner of affidavits and all manner of showing. In other words, they go for them singly. That is exactly the proposition they adopted in this case to get hold of the land. I would ask you what safeguards you would have to prevent them getting hold of the segregated money the same way they get hold of the segregated lands? Mr. Vatentine. In the first place— Mr. Burcu. The allotted lands. Mr, Vatentineg. In the first place, I would have, if I were omnipo- tent, such laws passed as would provide for the proper administra- tion of the local superintendencies as to quality of men and sufficient men. Mr. Burcu. What kinds of laws or what kind of a proposition would that be? I suppose you have not thought of it. Mr. Vatentine. I have thought of nothing else, except when I was asleep, for the last few years. Mr. Burcu. Where would you find such men, and under what kind of restraint would you put the officials? Mr. Vatentine. In the first place, I would seek to get business nt to run these reservations and pay them money enough to get them. Mr. Burcu. Yes. They may be good or bad; that does not Mr. Vatentine. I am not encroaching on the Creator of the Universe; I am not responsible for human nature. I have got to deal with men as I find them, as you have in every other form of business. The CuHarirman. If I remember rightly, at a former hearing, in discussing this very same matter, Mr. Valentine testified that the individual money belonging to the Indian when segregated would not be paid out in one payment, as he would have it, but that it would be retained in the Treasury and be paid out to him as he could make the best use of it—in installments or in such sums as his immediate needs required.. If he wanted to buy a team of horses to work with, and it appeared reasonably certain that he would buy the horses and that he would use them to work, then let him have, out of his money in the Treasury, enough to do that; and if he was hard up in the winter time for food and needed a small amount of money, he should get that; but that he should not have the entire use of the entire fund. Is my recollection about right? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely so, both as I recall what I said and as you have now expressed the idea that I intended to convey. Mr. Burcu. Would these matters be left to the agent in the field ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is, the Indian concerned ? Mr. Varenrine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How fast or how slow he should have these moneys would be left to the superintendent? Mr. Vaentrne. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. Well, are your superintendents, as a rule, sufficiently dependable to be entrusted, in your opinion, with all that kind of thing? 2580 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. Vatentine. I think, as a rule, they are. Certainly in their character; but it is also true, as I have lost no opportunity of stating before committees of Congress and in public addresses or in private talks, that the Government of the United States is expecting in many cases pretty nearly to get something for nothing in the sala- ries that we are able to pay for good men on Indian reservations, I believe absolutely that the majority of superintendents are good men. It is equally true that in many cases they have not the ability needed for their jobs. You can not expect, when you think of the interest involved on a reservation 100 miles long and 60 miles wide, we will say, with, perhaps, a $4,000,000 irrigation project going on on it, a big school system, and, perhaps, timber worth $4,000,000, to get the right man for the salaries we are able to pay. What business corporation or private firm in the country would put a man in charge of an operation of that kind and pay him $1,800 to $2,500 a year? It seems to me right where the root of the whole trouble lies, because, no matter how honest a man may be, you can not buy ability except in rare cases for that price. And it is wonderfully to the credit of the Indian system as a whole that we have so many ood men at their jobs; but apparently they are there because the arge commercial concerns of the country do not suspect what value they would be to them in private business or do not know of them. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, is not that the very trouble I am seeking to draw you out on? You see, these men are expected to be men really worth $10,000, but who are paid $1,500 salaries, and you can not make the thing work. I might go on and ask you, whose fault is that? You would say, “The fault lies with the smallness of the salary.” Whose fault is that? Congress. If it is Congress, who do they depend upon? The committee. And when you get down to the committee your next step is one of economy. And so you come along down, and the difficulty is or apparently seems to be insurmountable, does it not? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; it is surmountable. Mr. Burcu. Have you surmounted it? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. You have yet to prove whether it is surmountable. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; but I know it can be proved to be sur- mountable. Mr. Burcu. Can you get it surmounted? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Well, how can you do it? _ Mr. Vatentine. You can get it surmounted by making the Ameri- can people wake up to what is needed. Mr. Burcu. We are trying to do that, but I am afraid we are making a mighty small beginning. Mr. Grorcr. Did you intend to go on with that? Mr. Burcu. No; not any further. Mr. Grorce. Just one or two questions. Did I understand at the beginning of the testimony about the Kiowas that they had a large amount of money? Mr. Vatentine. $4,000,000. Mr. Burcu. In connection with the Comanches? Mr. Vatentines. Kiowas, Comanches, and Apaches. The Cuarrman. $4,000,000 for about 3,000 Indians. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2581 Mr. Georcr. And this is in Oklahoma? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir; southern Oklahoma. Mr. Georer. Is this the portion of Oklahoma that you are speak- ing of where the special agents are? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Georce. District agents or what did you call those agents? Mr. VatentTIne. District agents. Mr. Gzorcr. Have we at any time yet touched upon them? Mr. Vatentine. The district agencies? Mr. Grorcr. Have we on this list touched the district agencies? Mr. VALENTINE. We have not reached that; no, sir. Mr. Gzorce. When we do, will you speak on that particular? I would like to know about that. Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call your attention to a circular issued some time ago which contains what I believe to be some suggestions as to what might be done about Indian adminis- tration. The Cuarirman. Before leaving the question of segregation of funds, can you tell us about how the segregation or allotment of the tribal funds would affect the expense of administration of it? Would it increase it very greatly? Mr. Vatentine. It would increase it considerably; there is no doubt about it. The Cuairman. I mean, if the fund was administered on the theory that it was the property of an individual Indian instead of the property of the tribe. Mr. Vatentine. It would increase it, but you would be getting some results, whereas while it stays in the Treasury you are getting nothing from it—if it stays in the Treasury in the form in which it can not be used. The Cuatrman. The general level of the tribe is not being raised as much as it ought to be through that fund while it remains a unit in the Treasury. Mr. Vatentine. You have a wonderful example of that, Mr. Chairman, right among those Kiowas, Comanches, and Apaches. They have had in the past regular per capita payments—I think twice a year or at least once a year—of $50 a head, if I recall the amount correctly. That money has been simply dribbling away. Of course there is not much expense involved in that operation; not as much as there would be in supervising individual segregated shares, but neither has anything been accomplished by it. The Cuarrman. Might I illustrate your statement by a story? Mr. Vatentine. I would be.delighted. The Cuairmuan. I do not mind if it goes in the record; it is worth it. A farmer in my State had quite a bunch of corn in his cribs. Corn was going up very rapidly; it was up to 75 cents a bushel. He also had a number of what we call “stock hogs”—that is, hogs in the growing stage. They were not ready for the market and would not be until they had been fed vigorously for some weeks. He did not like to feed them all the 75-cent corn they could eat; he did not like to part with the corn. They did not get fat; they were not ready for market, and yet the corn was disappearing, and he kept on on that line until all the corn was gone and the hogs were not yet ready for market. 2582 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I do not think you could better illustrate it. The Cuarrman. If he had fed them vigorously for a short time he could have marketed the hogs and had some corn to spare. _ Mr. Vatenrine. That is an admirable illustration of precisely what exists down there, because the Kiowas, I think, are probably in a worse condition to-day than they were three years ago. Mr. Burcu. Does the market mean the grafter? Mr. Vatentine. I was trying not to follow the chairman’s story too far in its application, because that would mean that the Indians were the hogs. sone . The Cuarrman. The judge’s application of the story is not the one I would have made. The application of it, I think, is very apparent: That it isnot economy to dribble away a fund and accomplish nothing with it, whereas by paying out a considerable quantity of it at once you would get valuable results. Mr. Vauentine. Precisely so. ; : Mr. Burcu. I was only joking, Mr. Chairman. I did not mean anything more than that; but the idea I have in my mind just at the present time is that until you get some more honest and effective method of parceling them out than we have discovered thus far— that is, more universally honest—in spite of the good will of the Indian Bureau, that the money is a good deal better off behind the strong doors of the Treasury Department than is any attempt to do anything else with it, unless you put into hospitals or homes or some- thing that will actually do the Indians good, or furnish them some- thing they can not get rid of. Mr. Vatentine. Where I do not fully agree with you, Judge, is that I think while there are several probably equally bad situations with White Earth, you are taking what after all is an exceptional, when looked at from the 150 points of view in the service; and be- cause I do not think because there are great failures in one point the whole country should be put in the same category. Mr. Burcu. I will now take up the Klamath (Oreg.) Indians. What are they—or without regard to what they are, how many of them are there and what is it, school or reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. That is a large reservation there, very rich in re- sources. There are about 1,100 Indians of the Klamath, Modock, ete. Mr. Burcu. Where is it—in southern Oregon ? Mr. Vatentine. It is in southern Oregon, a little toward the west of the center of the State. Mr. Burcu. A mixture of Klamath and Modocs? Mr. Vaentine. Modocs and one or two other small tribes. Mr. Burcu. The same ones that we had the fight with some years ago, when they massacred some of our officers. Mr. Vatenting. In what was known as the Modoc war? Mr. Burcu. Yes; the Modoc war. You say they have large re- sources ? ail Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have their resources brought any trouble or scandal upon the reservation ? Mr. Vatentrine. I do not think of anything that is particularly scandalous about that reservation just at the moment. Mr. Burcu. They have money in the Treasury? ’ Mr. Gzorcr. Have they mineral or timber lands? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2583 Mr. Vatentine. They have very valuable timber and some valua- ble irrigation and drainage propositions, and I should rather think that there might be mineral in some parts of it. Mr. Grorcr. Is anybody after that? Mr. VaLextine. I assume so; but I do not know. Mr. Grorce. You know of no troubles? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall. Mr. Grorce. There is nobody from the outside trying to get it divided into severalty or sold, or any way to get it? Mr. Varentine. Yes: there is a proposition to allot the reserva- tion. There have been bills before Congress to allot the reservation. Mr. Georce. Is that in active movement now ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know. Mr. Grorcr. It makes no trouble for the department? Mr. Varentrine. I do not recall this afternoon offhand that there is anything particularly up about that. ; Mr. Burcu. Is that the same proposition to allot each man, woman, and child 160 acres? Mr. Vatentine. No; I do not recall now the precise terms of the bill. I would like to say, in further reply to your question, that I do not believe there is a reservation in the country that if we were to investigate it with any thoroughness but what we would find trouble; but I mean this does not stand out in my mind as one of my biggest and most important problems. Mr. Georcr. A band of Indians and given a fact that they had any mineral resources or timber or water courses, or anything else that might be regarded by other men as valuable—— Mr. Vatentine. It follows as night the day. Mr. Grorce. You would have trouble sooner or later? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Georce. And that if you did not have a problem now, that there is a possibility of it in the future? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir; and, furthermore, that is why it is neces- sary at the earliest possible date to make the right kind of an industrial study. Mr. Grorcer. Or the resources? Mr. Vatentine. I include that in my study. Mr. Burcu. The next is Lac du Flambeau, Wis. That is the Fred Herrick habitat, is it not? Mr. VaLenTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. That is where he has been operating heavily-all these ears? f Mr. Vatentine. I think for a considerable period. Mr. Borcx. On their timber? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there any complaints there that you know of? Mr. Vatentine. I think there are; I could not tell just what the status is there. : d Mr. Burcu. What kind of Indians—Chippewa ? Mr. Vatentine. I believe so, sir. Mr. Burcu. The next is La Pointe, Wis. That is just north of Lac du Flambeau ? Mr. Va.entine. Yes, sir.." ‘ Mr. Burcx. What we know as Ashland, substantially ? 2584 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Then Odena. Are there any troubles there, or com- laint ? Mr Vatentine. Yes, sir; that is one of our biggest problems, Mr. Burcu. In what manner—timber, land, or what? Mr. Vatentrnz. Timber, and questions of enrollment and _allot- ment, and the use of individual Indian moneys along the broad lines that you have been speaking about, and also, I believe, tribal claims—— Mr. Burcu. Is anybody representing them—— Mr. Vatentine. A very knotty problem. Mr. Burcu. As attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think they have any tribal attorneys. Mr. Burcu. Or anybody attempting to? Mr. Vaentine. There are applicants; yes, I think there are some applicants—here is a list, sir, which I will introduce for the record ai this point. [After a pause.] It is already in the record—a list of attorneys wanting to contract with Indians. Mr. Burcu. That is the list for which a place was left for the record to be inserted. Mr. Vatentine. That would answer this question, then. Mr. Grorcr. Is that the list that we saw the other day? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; that was the list of attorneys that had been given contracts. This is a list of people now desirous of making contracts. Mr. Georcs. Of “would-be” attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. “ Would-be” attorneys. Mr. Burcu. I notice in this list, Mr. Valentine, that there is one attorney—Dalby, for instance—who is an applicant for three differ- ent contracts; and there may be others of the same sort. I just hap- pened to glance over this. Is that a common thing for an attorney to ask to represent a number of these different Indian interests? Mr. Vauentine. I think there are several instances where attor- neys have applied for several contracts. Mr. Burcu. Are they mainly Washington attorneys or outside at- torneys that apply for several different contracts? Mr. Vatentine. I should presume, offhand, they would likely be Washington attorneys. Mr. Burcu. Then you say you have quite a large number of prob- lems—what you call “ problems?” Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir; I prefer to call them “problems,” be- cause only a practical analysis would show whether it was correct to use the word “trouble” or not. Mr. Burcu. The next is Leech Lake, Minn. That is one of the Minnesota matters? Mr. Vatenrine. Yes, sir. I might say, in connection with Leech Take, that we have some of the kind of ancient history there that we have had so many places in Minnesota, of what existed years and ‘hoon ago, under what was known as the general “dead and down” ogging operations. For instance, I do not remember just how much of that there was at Leech Lake, but it existed more or less over Minnesota; and at Red Lake, when I was there I went over the tim- ber a good deal myself, and there were extensive areas where there was not a tree standing and there was no green logging logs, and WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2585 yet all the timber had apparently disappeared. The only conceiv- able way it could have been destroyed is that as fast as one bunch deadened and blew down fire destroyed it, so that under what was supposed to be “dead and down” logging operations everything gradually disappeared. a Burcu. Well, you have some problems, then, there at Leech ake? Mr. VaLenTINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is that gentleman by the name of Neill working for you there? Mr. Vatentine. At Leech Lake? Mr. Burcu. Well, all through that part of the country. Mr. Vatentine. There is a man se that name working for the General Land Office. Mr. Burcu. Oh, he is a Land Office man? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I will pass that, then. He was a witness in this in- vestigation. Now, Leupp, Ariz. What is there? Mr. Vatentine. That is a reservation and school. I do not recall anything particularly to say to you about it at the present time. Mr. Burcu. What part of Arizona is it in? Mr, Vaentine. It is in the southwestern part of the Navajo Res- ervation, which is in the northern central part of Arizona. Mr. Burcu. Not connected with the Hela or Salt River Paumas, Maricopas, and Navajos up in the northern part? f Mr. VALentTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Next we have Lovelocks, Nev.; what about that? Mr. Vauentine. I do not think of anything to call the commit- tee’s attention to on that at the moment. Mr. Burcu. A small number of Indians? Mr. Vatentins. About a hundred. Mr. Burcu. And what tribes do they belong to? Mr. Vatentine. Paiutes. Mr. Burcu. Reservation or school ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall whether that was one of the places we bought a little land for them or just scattered Indians. Mr. Burcu. No tribal fund, I suppose? * Mr. Vatentine. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Next Lower Brule, of South Dakota? Mr. Vatenrine;> That is Sioux—Brule Sioux. Mr. Burcu. What have they? Mr. VALENTINE. They have a little surplus land, but they have not largely allotted; and they have, of course, the same interest in the general Sioux problem that all the Sioux tribes have. Mr. Burcu. Tribal funds, lands, and so forth. Mr. Varenrine. And attorneys. Mr. Burcu. The Malki, of California ? Mr. Vatentine. That is a small reservation in southern California. Mr. Burcu. Is there any particular tribulations or problems? Mr. Vatentrne. The chief problems in connection with this small southern reservation are little pumping or small irrigation projects for small tracts of land. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——68 2586 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. What is their health conditions—sanitary or health conditions ? , Mr. Vatentine. I think on the whole—for instance, Malki, Cal., has 20 per cent of trachoma; St. Boniface Mission, 27 per cent; Ca- hulla, 68 per cent, and so on; Martinez has 22 per cent. It shares with the rest of the Southwest in having such bad health conditions. Mr. Burcu. Martinez comes next. Is that in the same section as the Malki? Mr. Vatentine. Substantially—about the same general similarity about these Indian reservations as the Sioux, of Minnesota. Mr. Burcu. Then we have Mescalero, in New Mexico. Where is that? Mr. Vatentine. They are about 70 or 80 or 90 miles northeast of El Paso, Tex., in the southern central part of New Mexico. Mr. Burcu. Is this the Jicarilla? Mr. Va.entine. No, sir; these are Mescalero Apaches. Mr. Burcu. Not far from the Jicarilla, are they ? Mr. Vatentine. Oh, yes, they are. Mr. Burcu. Seventy-five miles or a hundred? Mr. VaLentine. Farther than that. Mr. Burcu. Farther? Have they any timber? Mr. Varentine. Yes; very valuable timber; one of the finest stands of timber in the Southwest. . Mr. Burcu. Is anybody trying to buy it or get hold of it? Mr. Vatentine. On general principles, I should be surprised if they were not. I do not recall anything particularly attached to it. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are they badly diseased ? Mr. Vatentine. They have a good deal of tuberculosis, and I do not know that we have reached it yet in our study of trachoma. Mr. Burcu. Are they very poor? Mr. Vatentine. I think not, sir. I think they are in fair condi- tion industrially. Mr. Burcu. Any hospital? Mr. Vatentrne. I could not tell you offhand. Mr. Burcu. Physicians? Mr. Vatentine. Probably. There are physicians at almost every one of these agencies. Mr. Burcu. Maopa River, Nev. ? Mr. Vatenrine. I do not think of anything of particular interest to say about that. You will, of course, understand when I do not mention anything particular, it is just because I have not anything in the top of my mind. Mr. Burcu. You do not know what resources they have? Mr. Vatenrine. I could not tell you offhand accurately. Mr. Burcu. Take the Moqui, of Arizona? Mr. Vatentine. That is the Hopi or Moqui people, living in the southern middle part of the Navajo country in northern Arizona. They are simply Pueblo Indians. They dwell on mesas and have eed houses to the Pueblos. It is where the famous snake dance is held. Mr. Burcu. They have tribal funds? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2587 Mr. Burcu. What is their condition of health? Mr. Vatentine. There has been very strenuous effort made to keep the Pueblos clean, and they undoubtedly have a good deal of tuberculosis and, I should assume, trachoma. Mr. Burcu. Do you find them mentioned there? Mr. Vatentine. They are not mentioned in this list. Mr. Burcu. Is there anybody after their pueblos or anything else that belongs to them? Mr. Vatentine. One of the big problems in that country is the problem of railroad lands. The Santa Fe Railroad was given lands, every alternate section for 40 miles on each side of the railroad, and the result is that these railroad lands—— Mr. Burcu. Twenty miles, and then lieu lands extending out, was it not? It was not 40 miles each side originally was it? Mr. Vatentine. Perhaps not. Mr. Burcu. Twenty miles each side, and then if any of the lands were gone they had a right to go 20 miles away and select. Mr. Vatentine. I know the usual limit is 20 miles. I saw the figure 40 the other day, and I retained that in my mind. There is authority of law to make these exchanges and it is very desirable from the point of view of the Indians that that territory should not be all shot up with these alternate railroad sections. So, it is a big proposition. Mr. Burcu. What do you mean by “exchanges” ? Mr. Vatenrine. Under the law the railroad is allowed to pick out lands of equal value outside the reservation and the Secretary of the Interior is entitled to approve such exchanged selections. Mr. Burcu. In other words, not take that within 20 miles of the railroad, but take lieu lands for it, or is it where the alternate sec- tions are gone and they take lieu lands? Mr. Vatentine. The point is that from the Indians point of view we want to get the railroad to release all its lands interpenetrating the Indian lands; in other words, to give substantially out of the country north of the Santa Fe Railroad so that the Indian lands will remain in block. Mr. Burcu. Is that the subject of legislation ? ; Mr, Vatentine. That, as I said a moment ago, is under authority of law. Mr. Burcu. An existing act of Congress? Mr. Vatentine. The Secretary of the Interior now has the author- ity to make such exchanged selections. ; ; Mr. Burcu. Does anybody act for the Indians outside of the Interior Department ? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. Some of the missionaries have taken an active hand in that—Father Weaver, of the Catholic Church, and Mr. Johnson, a missionary at Leupp, is very active in the matter. That law which you speak of is 33 Statutes, 211. Mr. Burcu. That is Moqui now we are talking about? Mr. Vatentine. What I am saying applies to Navajo and that vicinity. . Mr. Burcu. Mount Pleasant, Mich.; that is nothing but a school ? Mr. Vatentrne. I still object to your “nothing buts” ; but other- ’ wise you are correct. My. Burcu. A school? 2588 WHITE EARTH -RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. : Mr. Burcu. There are other propositions there, then, to take it up altogether ? ; Mr. VaLentTiIne. You mean besides that? Mr. Burcu. Yes. ; , Mr. Vatentine. That is the only nonreservation school in Michi- gan, and there are many thousand Indians in Michigan that badly need schools. Mr. Burcu. How much of an attendance have you? ; Mr. Vatentine. Two hundred and fifty at the present time. Mr. Burcu. I supposed I had seen it agitated in the papers a great deal about giving the school up entirely and turning it over to the State of Michigan. ; Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any particular move to that effect. Mr. Burcu. Navajo. . Mr. Vatentine. That is, the reservation that lies around the one we have been speaking of. ; Mr. Burcu. Peter Paquette is the superintendent. Mr. Vatentine. You are speaking of the particular jurisdiction. That is the eastern jurisdiction. ; Mr. Burcu. Have they any troubles or tribulations with their tribal funds? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall anything of that nature now. Mr. Burcu. That is just a particular jurisdiction of the Navajo? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; of the whole Navajo reservation, which you see has a very large area on the map. There are some very valu- able coal deposits, but how many are in this jurisdiction I could not tell you offhand. r. Burcu. Have they been shut out or acquired by interests outside of the Indians? Mr. Vauentine. Not so far as I know. Mr. Burcu. Not opened up? Mr. Vatentine. They have only recently been discovered by the people of the Geological Survey. It might save time to talk about this whole Navajo country at once, and as you come to the other agents I can deal with them as we go along. The Cuatrman. Take each in a tribal way. Mr. Vatentine. Yes. The water question is a very vital ques- tion, because these people have a great deal of stock. Mr. Burcu. You mean water for the stock and for irrigation purposes ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How numerous is that tribe? Mr. Vatentine. The estimates vary around 20,000, but there has never been anything what you would call a satisfactory census. Mr. Burcu. Upon how many reservations? Mr. Vatentine. If I recall offhand, five jurisdictions. Mr. Burcu. What are the health conditions there? Mr. Vauentine. I think a careful study would show that they average better health than in most places, because the Indians live nearer their own way—outdoor life. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal attorney ? Mr. Vatentinz. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have they claims against the Government? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2589 Mr. Vatentine. I believe not. Mr. Burcu. Have they timber? Mr. Vatentine. There is some timber in the eastern part of the reservation. Mr. Burcu. That is the Mescaleros? Mr. Vatentine. We are talking about the Navajos. Mr. Burcu. Are their reservations considered very valuable? Mr. Vatentine. It is beginning to be looked upon as more so. It was supposed to be the most worthless country in the world for a long time. The Cuairman. What is their status as to advancement? Mr. Vatentine. They are the Indians I spoke of the other day, that they would get along best if we had a war with Japan or England, because they still retain their old customs. Mr. Burcu. Are they dependent upon the surrounding country for subsistence? Mr. Vatentine. They are pretty much self-supporting. Mr. Burcu. Is Navajo Springs the same way ? Mr. Vatentine. That is part of these general jurisdictions. Mr. Burcu. Neah Bay, Wash. Mr. Vatentine. That reservation has some very peculiar fea- tures socially, but I do not recall anything of particular importance to call to the attention of the committee. The Cuatrman. The grafters do not try to get after the social features of the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. They try to get after the things that will leave the Indians without any social features. Mr. Burcu. Have these Indians any tribal funds? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. Mr. Burcu. Any timber? Mr. Vatentine. Some timber; I don’t recall how much. Mr. Burcu. Anybody trying to get hold of that? Mr. Vatentine. Wherever there is anything worth while I think probably somebody has his eyes on it. Mr. Grorcr. Anything worth stealing? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The next is Nett Lake, Minn. Mr. Vatentine. We have some very difficult industrial features there, but I do not think of any one specially. Mr. Burcu. Nevada; Wadsworth ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know of anything particular there. Mr. Burcu. That is right near White Horse Canyon, and is a mineral .region. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know what study has been made of it for mineral purposes. It is near Reno. Mr. Burcu. Is it affected by the Truckee irrigation ? Mr. Vatentine. It is in that vicinity. I do not think it comes into that reservation. Mr. Burcu. ‘You do not know anything specially about them? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; not that I recall at this special moment. Mr. Burcu. New York Reservation. Mr. Vatentine. They are hardly under our jurisdiction. Mr. Burcu. Omaha Indians. 2590 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. That has been the scene of a great many troubles in the past. Mr. Burcu. Mostly settled up now? Mr. VaLentIne. Very generally so; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Quite restored ? Mr. Vatentine. I think things are progressing very satisfactorily on both those reservations. Mr. Burcu. How about the Oneidas, Wisconsin ? Mr. VaLentine. There are some questions involving a good deal of difficulty. The Oneidas are supposed to be very far along in advancement. On the other hand, there are some very important atent and fee questions concerning them, and there are some new industrial ideas that some people would like to apply on the Oneida Reservation, which, I understand, the University of Wisconsin is very much interested in. Mr. Burcu. Is there anything that needs to be remedied by any legal proceedings? r. VALENTINE. Not so far as I know at the present moment, but we are making a careful study of the situation there concerning the issuance of patents and fees. Mr. Burcu. Is the reservation close by Green Bay? Mr. Vatentine. There are so many places called Green Bay in Wisconsin that it is very confusing to find your way around there. Mr. Burcu. Green Bay is a telegraph station around there, and then there is a city by that name. Mr. Vatentine. It is on the map southwest—in here [indicating on map]. Mr. Burcu. Is there anything else you call to mind? Mr. Vatentine. Not at this moment. Mr. Burcu. The Osages, of Oklahoma. Mr. Vatentine. That is one of our biggest problems. Mr. Burcu. And the Otoes, of Oklahoma, also. Mr. Vatentine. There are a couple of things I would like to call to the attention of the committee about the Osages, unless you wish to pass by them. Mr. Burcu. Go ahead. Mr. Varenting. That is the reservation I mentioned the other day before Mr. Pitzer, the superintendent, was in town. He spoke of those big leasing problems we had there, in trying to get these informal leasing matters cleaned up and formal leases made. Then there are some very interesting problems in regard to the school question, and there are some pretty difficult liquor problems in con- nection with the reservation. And, then, of course, one of the very biggest questions is the oil industry on the reservation. Are you still having difficulty, Mr. Pitzer, with their sale of black-walnut stumps? Mr. Pirzer. No; that matter is about settled now. Mr. Vatentine. So the difficulty in that respect is ended. These are the important features that I simply wanted to call to the atten- tion of the committee. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal attorney? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who is it? Mr. Vatentine. Kappler & Merillet. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2591 Mr. Burcu. How are they employed ? Mr. Vatentine. Under a yearly contract at $5,000 a year, and then I think they also have an attorney’s contract in connection with the Osages, in regard to the Osage civilization fund. That latter one is on a percentage basis—10 per cent up to $200,000 and rates of per cent after that. Mr. Burcu. Are they supposed to be safeguarding the interests of the Indians and straightening out their problems? Mr, Vatentine. So far as they need special legal knowledge. Mr. Burcu. How far have attorneys of this kind in adjusting the affairs of these Indian tribes aided or complicated these matters? Do they do good or ill? Mr. Varentine. That is a pretty broad question to mention in passing, Judge. I think that ought to be taken up as a separate item. 3 Mr. Burcu. In a general way, what is your impression in regard to it? I do not speak of Kappler & Merillet, or of the Osages par- ticularly. Mr. Vatentine. I mean as a general proposition; I think it is in- volved in the principle we brought out the other day. Mr. Burcu. I am afraid that will take too long a time now. The committee would like to know about these other important problems in regard to the Osage Indians. Mr. Vauentine. I want to add that the contract with these par- ticular attorneys expires shortly, and I suppose the question of re- newal will be up. I have no hesitancy in answering any questions you want to ask about these attorneys or any others; I simply think it is such a big question that it can not be handled in a cursory manner. Mr. Burcu. Next is Pala, Cal. Mr. Vautentine. I called your attention before to that in passing the other day. It is the place where we had a very interesting allotment problem, as to the families being allotted in the right kind of way. Mr. Buron. Allotment to the head of the family? Mr. Vatentine. Not precisely that; but it raised the whole allot- ment question. Mr. Burcu. The Pawnees, of Oklahoma. ; Mr. VatentrnE. They have a number of problems there. I think they have claims against the Government. Mr. Burcu. Do they have an attorney ? Mr. Vatenrtne. I believe they have not at present, but there are negotiations going on. Mr. Burcu. What firm of attorneys? ; Mr. Vatenrine. I am mistaken; the negotiations are not going on, but there is an application to negotiate now pending before the de- partment. : Mr. Burcu. By whom? . Mr. Vatentine. By Kappler & Merillet. ; Mr. Burcu. Kappler & Merillet have never moved to make it unanimous, have they, as to all these tribes? Mr. Vauentrine. I do not recall. i Mr. Burcu. I mean figuratively speaking. : Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall any such move, sir. 2592 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. The next is Pechanga. ; Mr. Vatentine. That is a small reservation about 6 or 7 miles from Pala. They have a difficult water problem there. Mr. Burcu. The next is Phoenix, Ariz. ; Mr. Vatentine. That is the school where Mr. Leupp first discov- ered trachoma and started the whole campaign. I think they found 700 out of 800 children affected with trachoma. Mr. Burcu. The next is Pierre, S. Dak. Is that a school? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. They have a small irrigation pumping project there. : Mr. Burcu. The next is Pima, Ariz. Mr. Vatenrine. That is one of our biggest problems. Mr. Burcu. The committee have that all under consideration, so I will pass that by unless you want to say something in regard to it. Mr. Vatentine. No; I have nothing at the present time, although it is a vital problem. The water rights of the Indians is one of the biggest problems before us. Mr. Burcu. Pine Ridge, S. Dak. Mr. Vatentine. There is nothing about those reservations I think of speaking of now. Mr. Burcu. The same as the other Sioux? Mr. Vatenrine. Yes; in a way. Of course, there are minor dif- ferences. Mr. Burcu. Pipestone, Minn., is a school. Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Ponca, Okla. Mr. Vatentine. They have discovered oil there recently. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal fund, or a tribal attorney, or any trouble about this discovery of oil? Mr. Varentine. I don’t recall that they have any tribal attorney. Mr. Burcu. What happens mostly when they discover oil? Do the Standard Oil people, or somebody representing them, get in there quick? Mr. Vatentine. I assume that people interested in the oil busi- ness are pretty soon on the spot. Mr. Burcu. Do they lease the land to them? Mr. Vatentine. That is the general custom. Mr. Burcu. On royalty? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. sir. Mr. Burcu. Is that without prejudice? Can anybody go in, or can only the Standard Oil go in? Mr. VatEntineg. It is open to everybody. The Cuarrman. On that point a little further, Mr. Valentine. . Have the Indians themselves anything to do with the leasing, or is that done by the bureau? Mr. Vatentine. That, I think, is done by the bureau, where there are allotments. Hhe Cuairman. How is it on this Ponca land? Mr. Vatentine. That is largely allotted. The Crarrman. And where it is allotted, to what extent can the bureau interfere with the making of the leases? Mr. Vatentine. The Secretary of the Interior has to approve the leases; they can not be made without his approval. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2593 The Cuairman. But I presume, as a matter of fact, his approval depends upon the approval of the head of the Indian Bureau, or does he deal with them directly? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; it comes through us, and our agent there handles it first, then the Indian Bureau, and then the Secretary. The Cuairman. As a matter of fact, and of course without any control on the part of the bureau, I suppose the Standard Oil Co. is handling the oil in that country? Mr. Vatentine. I have long had the feeling, Mr. Chairman, that the price of oil all through this country was not what it should be. The Cuairman. That is, the royalty? ‘ . Vatenting. No; the price of oil on which the royalty is ased. The Cuarrman. Is not the royalty based on the yield per barrel? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. But we feel that oil in that country is probably worth at least 75 cents, and until recently the price, I be- lieve, now has reached nearly 60 cents, and it has come up about 35 only a little over a year ago. I had the feeling all along that there must me some kind of monopoly in that matter. The situation falls into three parts: The producing proposition, the pipe line propo- sition, and the refining proposition, and while I am not making any charges, or anything of that sort, I am simply calling your atten- tion to a situation that has to be watched very closely to see that no combination of interests are made to keep the price down. The Caarrman. Has the oil business reached the point where leases are made? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. What is the royalty in that case? Mr. Vatentrne. The royalty is one-eighth. The Cuarman. One-eighth of what—of the oil? Mr. VaLEnTINE. It is a quantity basis. The Cuarrman. Of course it simmers down in the end to the barrel or so many barrels, the barrel being the unit of the crude oil? Mr. Vatentine. But the actual method of doing business. The producer sells to the pipe-line company. The Cuarrman. That is what I was going to get to. Then, after the owner of the land gets his royalty, he has to sell to the lessee. There is no one else to sell to. Mr. VatEnTINE. Substantially not in many cases. They are sup- posed to be three companies that appeared in that field—the Prairie Oil & Gas Co., the Texas Co., and the Gulf Pipe Line Co. The Cuamman. Does the lease provide for the price which he shall receive for his royalty of the share of the crude oil? Mr. VaLEentINe. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Do you remember what that is? Mr. Vatentine. I beg your pardon. The price—it is the market price, I believe. The Cuatrman. The current market price at the time the oil is purchased ? Mr. VaLenTINe. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Now, we have reached the other point you re- ferred to where there are three oil companies. As I understood you, 2594 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. you are not free from doubt as to whether there are competing com- anies ? Mr. Vatentine. I am not free from doubt; no, sir. The Cuairman. How many bids were made for the lease in this case ? Mr. Vatentine. In the Ponca cases? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you. The Cuarrman. Do you recall whether there was apparent compe- tition? Mr. Vatentrne. I don’t know that. In that particular country it is a new field. I can look that up. The Cuairman. I was only trying to get at the situation generally. In some of the other and older fields have you a recollection as to whether there were a number of bids at the leasing? Mr. Vatentine. The matter is handled somewhat in this way: The royalty is fixed, a certain price for all, and the only difference that comes to the Indians comes from the bonus which competing buyers offer the Indian. The Cuarrman. You mean that the lease fixes the quantity of the royalty and the price to be paid on it, and that that is arbitrary. Mr. Vatentine. The percentage, one-eighth per cent, of the roy- alty states the oil shall be purchased at the current market price at the time of sale, and in addition to that in trying to get a lease two people will go in there, one is offered a bonus of so much and so much in addition to the royalty. The Cuarrman. These competitors bid so much premium on the privilege of getting that lease? Mr. VaLentTIne. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. Please give us the names of the three companies that bid on the Ponca lease. Mr. VatentIne. I could not do that. The three companies I men- tioned were in that general field, but who are the pipe-line companies I will have to look up. There is the Prairie Oil & Gas Co., which is a subsidiary of the Standard Oil Co., and another is called the Texas Co., and the third the Gulf Pipe Line Co., and many of these com- panies are producers as well as carriers. The Caatrman. Have recent developments in court, recent Stand- ard Oil suits, developed the fact whether or not these other two com- panies were subsidiaries of it? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think so. The CHATEAAR Is it your judgment there were independent com- panies? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir; I wouldn’t be willing to say that. ane Cuairman. And the state of your mind is you have no knowl- edge. Mr. VALENTINE. I have no knowledge. I am frank to say there might be some combination between them in that field. Mr. Burcu. Who gets the royalty when it is paid? Mr. Vatentine. The Indian. Mr. Burcu. Are these lands under restriction ? Mr. Vatzntrnz. That depends, of course. Where the lands are not under restriction the Indian gets it direct; in other cases, it is under the supervision of the department. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2595 Mr. Burcu. Where does the money go? Mr. Vatentine. It goes either into the bank account of the In- dians or it is controlled by the superintendent—what we call individ- ual Indian money funds. Mr. Burcu. Is it put into the hands of the superintendent? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is he bonded ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and then the banks in which the money is deposited are also bonded. Mr. Burcu. If the agent is bonded how does he disburse it ? Mr. Varentine. It is handled exactly as individual money is han- died from whatever source it is derived. Mr. Burcu. How is that? Mr. Vaentine. If the Indians are old or sick, he frequently allows them so much a month. If they are fully competent he turns it over to them in bulk. If they are not competent he allows them to make purchases under his supervision, such as building houses, material used for building houses, the purchase of horses, stock, and farming implements, and so forth. poe Burcu. Then he is essentially a sort of general guardian for them? — Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. This money would be handled precisely as in many cases segregated funds, that we talked about, are handled. Mr. Burcu. Have you had any trouble from it, or scandal from its just or proper disposal in the way of payments to these Indians? Have they been fleeced out of it by the agents in any manner? Mr. Vatentine. I think on the whole it is fair to say there have been less scandals about the use of individual Indian moneys than in other phases of the work. On the whole, it has been pretty well han- dled by the superintendents. Mr. Burcu. What method is there for checking up between the Indian and the agent ? Mr. Vatentine. All these accounts have to be submitted to the Treasurer and are checked up not only by that officer, but the Audi- tor of the Treasury and by the Interior Department. Mr. Burcu, Suppose the Indian signs a voucher, which answers for so much that he has received, has it ever transpired that he never got that money? Mr. Vatentine. As I stated, taking into account other things, there has been less trouble in this way of handling these moneys than in other activities. There may have been individual complaints. The Cuarrman. What has the result been in cases where oil lands have made individuals rich? What use have they made of their riches? Mr. Vatentine. Where they have been under the supervision of the Government I think they have been led to make a fairly effective use of their money. It is one of the points in the service, I think, that has worked out pretty well on the whole. I made an order some time ago that Indians were not to be allowed to use these moneys where they were able to work; in other words, shut them off from living on their money; and I think, taking the country over, some very useful results have been procured from the use of these indi- vidual moneys. 2596 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuairman. When the money is tribal money, what is done with it? Mr. Vautentine. In such cases it would’ go into the general tribal fund and await action by Congress. ; The Cuarrman. Without any special arrangement to get it out again to individual Indians? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. The Crarrman. Thus increasing the tribal funds? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I will take up Pine Ridge now, South Dakota. Mr. Vatentine. You already asked me about that under the gen- eral Sioux question. Mr. Burcu. How about Potawatomi? Mr. Vaventine. I think of nothing particular to speak of about that. Mr. Burcu. That is an old settled country there in Kansas? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. They have several problems; but I think of nothing that I can ask the committee to dwell upon. Mr. Burcu. Pueblo Bonito, N. Mex. Mr. Vatentine. That we have already covered in the general statement of the Navajo country. Mr. Burcu. And Pueblo day schools? Mr. Vatentine. They offered very complicated problems of tim- ber, grazing, and water; but there is nothing particular that I need to speak to you about at the present time. Mr. Burcu. Rapid City, S. Dak., is a school? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Is it prosperous and healthy? Mr. Vatentine. I would like to mention, in passing, I was very much interested to find a physician at Rapid City who believed we could make arrangements by which the Indians could sleep out of doors. It was frequently said that was impossible in Dakota, and I hope we can refute that. That would be one of the best things that could be done for the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Why there? Mr. Vauentine. Because there is a tendency toward tuberculosis from being shut up. That is under the shelter of the Black Hills, but it is not as bad land as farther east. Mr. Burcu. The next is Red Cliff. Mr. Vatenrine. That is a small reservation in Minnesota. Mr. Burcu. Red Lake. Mr. Vatentine. That has some very difficult administrative prob- lems in regard to the timber and allotment. There is a present act In existence now in regard to the allotment of timber which I-think ought to be amended. Mr. Burcu. Please state what it is. Mr. Vaxentine. It provides for allotment in such areas that the Indians could not be allotted on proper social lines; and I am abso- lutely, as you know, opposed to the allotment of timber to the Indians. Mr. Burcu. What are the social lines you speak of? Mr. Vatenrine. In Red Lake the agricultural lands lie mostly along the southern side of the two lakes, and consequently the best— what we call first class—agricultural land is limited in area. That WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, 2597 should be allotted the Indian very much along the lines I mentioned the other day in making the general allotment statement to the com- mittee, and the act should so provide. The CHarrman. Give each one of them a small amount of agri- ae lands, and let the timberlands remain as their tribal prop- ert; Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir; and give them larger amounts of land for grazing and for hay. The Cuairman. Which would be common land. Mr. Vauentine. I think the hay land need not be; that could be in many cases allotted. The Cuarrman. What is the proposition before Congress? Mr. Vatrentine. I know of no proposition. The Cuairman. The bill before Congress? Mr. VaLentine. The act now in existence. The Cuarrman. It is in actual existence? Mr, VaLentine. Yes, sir. The CHarrman. And you think it ought to be amended? Mr. Vatentine. I think so. The Cuairman. Can you state where that act can be found? Mr. Vatentine. I have a reference here to it. Mr, Burcu. The next is Red Moon, Okla. Mr. Vatentine. That is in the trachoma belt. Mr. Burcu. What tribes belong to it? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is the Arapahoe. Mr. Burcu. Rice Station, Ariz. ? Mr, Vatentine. That is a nonreservation school, with the position of being on the reservation, but it is an independent school. Mr. Burcu. There are no particular troubles about it? Mr. Vatentine. No; I think not. Mr. Burcu. Rosebud, S. Dak. Mr. Vatentine. That is, in a general way, like the other reserva- tions, except they have a very big tribal fund, very large amounts of Indian individual moneys, and it has been the scene of many past scandals that have left their scars even at the present time. ‘Mr. Burcx. None now? Mr. Vatentine. I would not want to commit myself. So far as T know, a new man has taken hold. Mr. Burcu. Have they a tribal attorney? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. The Cuarrman. To what were the scandals attributed ? Mr. Varentine. Attributed largely to the behavior of superin- tendents—what looked like the White Earth situation. Mr. Burcu. Round Valley, Cal.? Mr. Vatentine. I have nothing to suggest about that. Mr. Burcu. Sac and Fox, Iowa? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. There is a burning question there, al. though a small one. Mr. Burcu. In connection with the school there? Mr. Vauentine. Partly with, and partly in connection with the allotment question. We have also had some difficulty there about the withholding of annuities of the Indians, because they refused to send their children to the school. a 2598 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Yes; I know about that. It went into the United States courts. Judge Harris and I were connected with it. But I don’t think these Indians needed investigation, in the sense of cor- ruption or anything of that kind. ; Mr. Vatentinz. No, sir; I think not. I know nothing of that at the present time. Mr. Burcu. Next are the Sac and Fox, of Oklahoma. Mr. Vatentine. They recently discovered oil on their lands, and then there have been some important lawsuits between the Sac and Fox of Oklahoma and the Sac and Fox of Iowa, which have been recently decided. There was one case in connection with the suit where a great deal of pressure was brought to bear to have the case settled, and it would have been settled if the influence had gone through, and the Indians would have gotten very little. As it was finally settled by the Supreme Court, I think, they got something like $400,000. Mr. Burcu. Were there private attorneys in the case litigating for their side? Mr. Vatentine. I think there were attorneys for both sides. Mr. Burcu. The contention was between the Iowa Sac and Fox and the Oklahoma Sac and Fox as to whether the Iowa Indians had any rights—— Mr. Vatentine. As to the division of the funds. I simply men- tion this in passing, because Iowa is an interesting example of the answers I gave to Mr. George’s questions the other day. Mr. Burcu. What is this influence? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know that it is of interest, but anything I know is at the disposal of the committee. Mr. Burcu. Does the committee desire to hear about it? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Burcu. Go ahead, then. Mr. Vatentine. Briefly, very many people of Iowa, including their Representatives in Congress and some other eminent gentle- men, contended this money belonged to the Iowa branch, and I think the bill was on President Roosevelt’s table ready for him to sign, which would have made a division, when the matter was held up. He did not sign the bill. The matter went to the courts and saved the Oklahoma branch something like $400,000, which they would have lost otherwise. Mr. Burcu. This was substantially a question of the interest of the delegation, or portions of it, from Iowa in the Iowa Indians as against the Oklahoma Indians? Mr. Vatenrine. Precisely. I am not stating, of course, that all these gentlemen knew the facts; but I mean their Representatives or people who apparently did know them, that their action was such that it was just a matter of vigorous watching on the part of the Indian Office that the President did not sign the bill. Mr. Burcu. This Iowa branch was in the district of Representa- tive Cousins? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t remember who was the Representative. _Mr. Burcu. At that time—never mind. Does the committee de- sire to hear any more? The Cuamrman. Not on that point. Mr. Burcu. It is not a numerous band? & WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2599 a Mr. Vaentine. The Towa Sac and Fox gre about 400, and in Oklahoma the Sac and Fox number about 600. The Cuairman. Is there a connection, in the derivative sense, be- tween the Kiowa and the Iowa Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. I think the Kiowa is the rough Creek, which is quite a different root from the Iowa. Mr. Burcu. Salem, Oreg., is a school? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Is there anything there worth mentioning? Mr. VaLentine. Not at the present time. Mr. Burcu. San Carlos, Ariz.? Mr. Vatentine. That we have already covered. That is where the San Carlos dam site is. There is very big timber there. Mr. Burcu. There is timber there? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir; very fine. Mr. Burcu. On the San Carlos Reservation ? Mr. Vatentine. Very fine pine. Mr. Burcu. Mineral? Mr. Vatentine. That is where the tufa stone was found, and as to what else there is of mineral I am not able to say. Mr. Georce. Do you know whether much of that tufa stone is shipped away ? Mr. VaLentine. We can not use it except for agency purposes, be- cause there is no law under which we can lease or operate minerals. Mr. Burcu. What do they use it for? Mr. Vatentine. It is used in the construction of buildings. You can hew it with an ax. Mr. Georcr. Do you know whether it is like the Italian tufa? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. The next is San Juan, N. Mex. Mr. VatentiIne. We have already covered that. Mr. Buron. And Santa Fe, N. Mex. Mr. Vaventine. That is a school with a number of Pueblos under its jurisdiction. Mr. Burcu. Any particular property ? Mr. Vatentine. There are very valuable Pueblo interests under the school. Mr. Burcu. Santee, Nebr. ? Mr. Vatentine. There is nothing particular about that. Mr. Burcu. And San Xavier, of Arizona? Mr. Vatentine. I know of nothing particular about that. Mr. Burcu. It is near Tucson? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The superintendent of San Xavier has relations with a good many of the Indians scattered through that part of the Indian papagos. There is a good deal of irrigation in connection with their lands. Mr. Burcu. The Seger, Okla. ? Mr. Vatentine. There is nothing particular about them. Mr. Burcu. What kind of Indians are they? Mr. VaLentine. Cheyennes. Mr. Burcu. The Seneca, Okla. ? Mr. Varentine. I don’t know of anything about them. Mr. Burcu. What kind of Indians are they? Mr. Vatentine. The Senecas? 2600 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Yes. .j Mr. Vatentrne. They are up in the northeastern part of the State, There are several tribes up there—Quepaws, Senecas, Ottawas, Modocs, and Miami. Mr. Burcu. These are not the Senecas of the original Six Nations of New York? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know that, whether they drifted down there in the old days; probably a branch of the New York. The old theory was to bring all the Indians in the United States and group them in this Indian territory. Mr. Burcu. Shawnee, Okla. Anything about them? Mr. Vatentine. Nothing particular that I can think of. Mr. Burcu. Sherman Institute, California. Mr. Vatentine. That is a school. Mr. Burcu. Shivwits, Utah. What are they? Mr. Vatentine. I think that is their name. I think that is their tribal name. Whether they are a branch of the Paiute Indians or not I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Are there any problems there? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I recall. Mr. Burcu. Shoshone? Mr. Vatentine. That is a very important reservation. There is oil, asphalt, coal, and irrigation. Mr. Burcu. It is up north of Casper—up in toward the Black Hills—I mean Yellowstone Park. Mr. Vatentine. It is in western central Wyoming. Mr. Burcu. North of Laramie? Mr. Varuntine. Yes, sir; on the Union Pacific. Mr. Burcu. What do they have there? Mr. Varentine. Oil, irrigation, asphalt, coal, and two very strong serene The two bands on the reservation are rather uneasy to- ether. . Mr. Burcu. Do they have a tribal attorney ? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are there any particular influences about them seek- ing to get hold of these interests? r. Vatenttne. I don’t recall anything particularly. Of course, a large part of their reservation has already been ceded. Mr. Burcu. To the Government? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Opened up? Mr. VatentIne. Opened up under the Carey Act. That is the Sho- shone Reservation. Mr. Buscu. Is that in the eastern part of Idaho? Mr. Vatentine. Wyoming. a I understand, but did they own the lands there in aho? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know. You are thinking of the Ban- nocks; I don’t know about that. Mr. Burcu. Siletz, Oreg. ? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know anything about them. : The Cuarirman. That reminds me. It is a very familiar name oO me. Mr. Burcu. Siletz? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2601 The Cuarmrman. Yes. I wish I had the letter here now. In one of the letters written by Mr. Schwartz, of the department, which came up in the Ballinger-Pinchot hearing, he said in substance, in this letter, that the Siletz question was loaded and was one of the worst situations in the country. I could quickly turn to the letter if I had that evidence here. To what did he refer? Mr. Vatentine. I think he refers to the open reservation, which is now under the jurisdiction of the Land Office. The CuHarrmMan. It is not a matter that came under the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Vatentine. Not at this time. The Cuarrman. He had no connection with the Indian Bureau? Mr, Vatenting. No, sir. There has been a great deal of open land in that country, but so far as I know there has been no particu- lar matter arose about it in connection with Indian affairs. There is some water power in connection with the reservation. I will look it up and see if I can find anything in regard to it. The Cuairman. I take it, then, that it is not a matter involving the Indian Bureau. Mr. Burcu. Sisseton, S. Dak. ? Mr. Vatentine. We covered that in a general way on the Sioux question. The Indians are doing pretty well there at farming. Mr. Burcu. Soboba, Cal.? Mr. Vatentine. We covered that. Mr. Burcu. Southern Ute? Mr. Vatentine. We also covered that. Mr. Burcu. Is there coal on it? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know of coal on it. Mr. Burcu. Water? Mr. Vatentine. Irigation; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. In what way? Mr. Vatentine. It has been a complicated irrigation proposition. Mr. Burcu. Have these southern Utes a tribal fund? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t remember. I don’t think so. Mr. Burcn. Do they have timber? Mr. Vatentine. Not that I know of. Mr. Burcu. They certainly must have had coal? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know. I would like to look that up. _Mr. Burcu. There is a very valuable coal field down east of Ignacio. The next is Spokane, Wash. Mr. Vaentine. That has already appeared in the record. That is a place where some pretty good allotments were made. They have some valuable timber, and also some pretty valuable water power. Mr. Burcu. The Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Who got hold of it in the end? Mr. Vatentine. So far as I know, they still have it. Mr. Burcu. Springfield, S. Dak. Mr. Vatentine. We have covered that. Mr. Burcu. Standing Rock, N. Dak. Mr. Vatentine. That is part of the general school problem. Mr. Burcu. Tomah, Wis. Mr. Vatentine. That is a school. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——69 2602 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Tongue River, Mont. Mr. Vatentine. It is an important reservation. It has some valuable timber; I think it might have some mineral. It has an irrigation project and is a big stock-raising country. Mr. Burcu. By whites? Mr. Vatentine. By Indians. It is a reservation. Each spring you will find that a rumor spreads in the papers that the Indians are going to attack the white settlers. It seems for years this has been tried to stir the people to open it up, but the Indians are among the most peaceable we have. Mr. Burcu. Truxton Canon, Ariz. ; Mr. Vatentine. I think of nothing particular to say about that at this time. Mr. Burcu. I see there is a place called Valentine, Ariz. What part of Arizona is that? Mr. Vaentine. I am rather indignant because that got away from me. The superintendent wanted to name the school after me and I would not let him, and later on I found they named the post office after me. Mr. Burcu. Tulalip, Wash. Mr. Vatentine. That is a school, and some very important timber is there. Mr. Burcu. Belonging to this school? Mr. Vatentine. Belonging to the reservation. Mr. Burcu. Has it been sold? Mr. Vatenttine. I think it has been sought in sale. Mr. Burcu. Tule River, Cal. Mr. Vatentine. There is nothing particular about that. Mr. Burcu. Turtle Mountain, N. Dak. Mr. Vatentine. That is a small township and reservation with day schools on it. I don’t think of anything particular to say about it. Mr. Burcu. Uintah and Ouray. Mr. Vatentine. That is an enormous trouble. Mr. Burcu. It is located up in the mountains of western Colo- rado—the Rocky Mountain district. Mr. Vatentrine. It is in the old country from which the Uintah Indians moved. The present reservation is in Utah. The way I went there last summer, I went up from Provost, just south of Salt Lake. Mr. Burcu. What are the troubles there? Mr. Vatentine. Irrigation, grazing, some forest troubles. Mr. Burcu. Valuable fruit region ? Mr. Vatentine. I think you could raise fruit. There is a won- derful valley along the river, but whether it is famous for fruit I couldn’t say offhand. It is one of the most valuable valleys in central Utah. The Cuairman. What is the nature of the irrigation troubles? Mr. Vatentine. One of the prime difficulties in regard to the Indian irrigation question is this: The way the reservations have been opened under the acts the Indians are subjected to the law of beneficial use, which I think is wrong from the Indian point of view, because they should be protected. We have attempted to de- velop them industrially. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2603 The Cuairman. In other words, the acreage which is irrigated for them is subject to a payment of an annual tax, the same as the white man’s land. Mr. Vatentine. Not only that, but they actually lose their right unless they make use of them in a given time. We have until 1919 to get the Indians started, and the Utes are rather backward, and unless they use their land between now and 1919 they will lose their water rights. I think it needs certain legislation. I had a memo- randum prepared for me by Mr. Meritt which I would like to em- body in the record, showing the need for legislation in regard to many of these big irrigation projects on Indian reservations. The Cuarrman. I think that would be worth reading. Mr. Vatentine. I will read it: NOVEMBER 17, 1911. Dean MR. VALENTINE: Ever since the congressional hearing last spring in connection with the Pima, Salt River, and Camp McDowell Reservations I have realized more fully than ever before the great importance of establishing more certainly and securely the water rights of the Indians. With this idea in view I have been giving the subject of water rights particular attention and have been trying to evolve a plan whereby these water rights might be better. protected. I find that the principle laid down in the very favorable decision of the Supreme Court regarding water rights of Indians in the Winters case (207 U. S., 564) has been practically nullified by various acts of Congress, and as the result of such legislation the water rights of Indians are now dependent on beneficial use in a large number of reservations where the Government is spending millions of dollars of reimbursable funds and are subject to the laws of the several States wherein these projects are located. In substantiation of this statement your attention is invited to the laws of Congress regarding the water rights in connecticn with the Blackfeet, Flathead, Uintah, and Wind River Reservations. In order to fully protect the interests of the Indians, involving, as they do. property rights amounting to millions of dollars, I have drafted the inclosed proposed legislation, which I believe will, if enacted, accomplish the desired results. Since drafting this legislation there has come to my attention in the regular course of business the joint report of Messrs. McLaughlin and Hol- combe regarding the Uintah water situation, which fully substantiates my judgment of the need of legislation along the lines indicated. In this connection, pending the enactment of the legislation in question, I deem it of the greatest importance that the lands now subject to irrigation on the reservation herein referred to, especially under the Uintah and Wind River projects, be put to beneficial use, and this should be done even if it becomes necessary to lease the land for a number of years at a nominal rental. I want to add that I consider the Indian water-right situation one of the most acute and important questions now before this office. There is dependent upon its correct solution property rights not only involving millions of dollars, but the success or failure, prosperity or poverty, of thousands of Indians who are the wards of the Government and whose interests it is the duty of this bureau and the Interior Department to fully protect. Sincerely, yours, E. B. Merirt, Law Clerk. Hon. R. G. VALENTINE, Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The Carman. Mr. Meritt, the writer of the letter, being here, might answer, unless you can answer for him, when he speaks in that communication of the decision in the Two hundred and fourth United States being nullified by various act of Congress. Mr. Vatentine. That is the Winter case. The Cuarrman. When he speaks of that, does he refer to the laws affecting those tribes, such as the Blackfeet, Flathead, and Uintah? 2604 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the acts opening those reservations, The Cuatrman. So the laws referring to these tribes are the ones referred to earlier in the letter as nullifying or partly nullifying the decision of the Supreme Court? : Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. Take, for instance, the Uintah Reservation. In the opening act there is a provision which requires beneficial use of the water, and if the Indians do not make beneficial use of these waters the junior proprietors, being known as the junior proprie- tors, go in there and after the Indians have forfeited their water rights will get the benefit of the irrigation plan, and it is necessary under that law that the Indians make beneficial use of that water, or else they lose it. The Cuarrman. Have you anything more to say than you have said by way of explanation of the term “beneficial use” and of the manner in which it operates to the disadvantage of the Indians? Mr. Merrrr. Beneficial use means that the Indians must use the water for irrigation purposes. Mr. Burcu. And pay for it. Mr. Merirr. They are not required to pay for it. Of course, they must be starting their irrigation plans out of their own funds. Mr. Burcu. They must use it or lose it? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. So that, as has been suggested, if the Indians have established rights, prior rights, and do not make actual use of those rights, and somebody else goes ahead and does make actual use of that water, this subsequent or junior user gets the rights which the Indian has? Mr. Vatentrine. In that case the Indian would forfeit his water right under the special act of Congress, and the beneficial user of the water would get the right to the water. The Cuarrman. Is there any limit of time during which the Indian may remain quiescent, so to speak, without using the water before he loses iis right? In other words, how long a time has he in which to act? Mr. Merirr. That depends on the local laws. The laws of the various States vary in regard to that. The Cuairman. Can you give us by way of illustration about how they run? Mr. Merirr. In the Uintah case I think the Indians had until 1914 in which to make the beneficial use, but under the laws of the State the water right commissioner can extend that time, in his dis- cretion, and on the special request of the department the commis- sioner has recently extended the time by which the Indians on the reservation may make beneficial use of the water provided for by their irrigation plan. The Cuatrman. In cases where the Indian is a ward of the Federal Government the notices necessary and all the steps necessary to de- ye the Indian of his rights, I suppose, are given to the Indian ureau and not to the Indian himself. Mr. Vatentine. It is a question The Cuarrman. Is the Indian Bureau in shape to protect the rights of the Indian in such cases; and if not, why not? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2605 Mr. Menrirr. We are trying. I guess the commissioner will be better able to answer that. The Indian Office is trying to protect the rights of the Indians to its fullest extent. For instance, out in Wy- oming the office has recently advertised the land so that we could get farmers to go in there and use that land for a nominal figure, so that beneficial use might be made of the water, so that the Indians would have an actual water right on their land for beneficial use. The Cuatrman. Has there been any conflict of law or of jurisdic- tions between the local laws and the local authorities and the Federal laws and authorities. Before the Indian loses his rights, if he does not put them in operation, is there any question as to the validity of such a local law when the State passes a law? Mr. Merirr. That law, in my judgment, would not be valid unless Congress enacted a law which required the Indian to make beneficial use of the water in accordance with the State law. The Cuarrman. Has Congress done so? Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Under general law? Mr. Merrrr. Under special laws. In these opening laws there is usually inserted a paragraph in some cases requiring Indians to make beneficial use of the waters in accordance with the State laws. Mr. Burcu. But not one general blanket law applying to the use of the water everywhere. Mr. Merirt. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. This beneficial use and junior appropriation is. all done under the State law. That is to say, the general operators go to the State irrigation commissioners for the district, or for the State, anyhow, and apply to appropriate this water, and are the waters adjudicated to them subsequent to the Indians? If the Indians, therefore, do not use it by this beneficial use theory or by force of law, the junior appropriators take charge of it? Mr. Merit. Yes, sir. Mr. Vatentine. The gist of it is right here: I don’t believe the Indians should be subjected to the State laws or customs until the have been brought to the point by the Federal Government and until they become citizens. Mr. Burcu. Your opinion is these are inserted in the opening acts for the purpose of bringing the Indians to terms? Mr. Vatentine. If you want to put it that way. I think the im- portance of it has not been fully appreciated, and will not be fully appreciated until we work it out. Mr. Burcu. In the White Earth matter there is evidence tending to show that the effect of the Clapp Act by subjecting allotted lands of mixed-blood adults to taxation had exactly the same effect. That is, the Indians did not have the money to pay the taxes, were not using the land, and that it was an indirect method of depriving them of the ownership of it by tax title, and this works similarly. Mr. Vatentine. I should say hardly similar; but the result would be about the same. The Cuarrman. More surely. Mr. Vatentine. Inevitably. The Cuarrman. And more quickly. 2606 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION, Mr. Burcu. Than the tax-title project? The CuairmMan. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. But it is on the same general trend of putting the Indian to the necessary application of himself before he is able to do so. The Cuarrman. I take it that anything in the nature of a fixed charge, a fixed annual charge on the Indians’ land, or 2 reimburs- able annual payment on his land, will in a very large percentage of the cases inevitably get the land away from him in a comparatively short time. Mr. Vatentine. Almost bound to have that effect. The Cuairman. Is not that the trouble with most of these irriga- tion propositions? Mr. Vatentine. Even a deeper trouble, and that is the fact that the bureau is pushed to get the Indians industriously on their feet, not only in a limited time, but one bound to be insufficient. The Cuairman. There is one other point on the matter referred to by Mr. Valentine, I think, in addition to the irrigation you mentioned, and that is grazing difficulties. What is the nature of those difficulties ? Mr. VaLentIne. Overgrazing is one of the troubles. The Cuairman. By whom? Mr. Vatentine. By the stock lessees on the reservation. The Cuarrman. And how does that operate to the disadvantage of the Indians? Mr. Vatenting. It kills out the range unless the grass is pro- tected, so it is not eaten down too close. The Cuairman. That is what you mean by overgrazing? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Sheep grazing? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. The contract is so much per year per head? Mr. Vatenrine. I think it is with a limit as to a general number of sheep within a given area. Mr. Burcu. And the lease would limit the number of head that might be grazed in a given area ? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, is there overgrazing ? Mr. Vatrntine. These things more or less occur, but it looks as though it is quite customary in the stock country for sheep and cattle to find, generally, more on the range than the lease provides for. Mr. Burcu. Will they pay for the excess? _ Mr. Vatentine. They ought not to have them there, because it Injures the land. Their purpose is to get them in there without being known. The Crarrman. Are the leases for one year or more than one? Mr. Vatentine. These grazing leases range in different parts of the country, from one to three years. The Cramman. When the lessee has possession of the ground for a year beyond the current one it would be to his interest not to overgraze ¢ Mr. Vatentrne. For the first year; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Second year or the third-year lease, it would not make so much difference 2 ’ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2607 Mr. Vatentine. And the third year he would milk it as much as he could, assuming he is that kind of a man. The Cuarruan. Whose duty would it be to make him live up reasonably close to the ‘contract ? Mr. Vauentine. It is the duty of the local superintendent to make him live up absolutely to the contract. The Cuarrman. Are the circumstances surrounding his office and his official duties such that he could do that if he would? Mr. VatentIne. I wouldn’t want to say that fully. The local superintendents have many of the same handicaps that the bureau here in Washington has in the way of administration. But, broadly speaking, the superintendent ought either to feel that he has a check on the operations under him or put the blame for the effect on the Washington office by reporting the facts. ae CuHarrmMan. What facts would prevent him from knowing the truth ¢ Mr. VaLentine. That is a very big question. This Uinta coun- try—the agency is in the eastern end, and away up here is a place where a man could have 100,000 sheep. The Cuairman. A hundred miles from the grazing ground? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. And the only way to watch that would be to occasionally, without the knowledge of the lessee, check up the number of head actually on the ground. The country is very broken and wild and runs off into all kinds of canyons, and it is possible to conceal 100,000 sheep in there. The Cuarrman. I took cognizance of that when I interjected in my question the words “ reasonably close.” Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. The Caarrman. I do not think it would be reasonably possible to hold him down to the numerical limit. Mr. Burcu. Do they get enough out of this grazing to employ a sufficient number of men to supervise it? Mr. Vauentine. I am glad you raised this point, because I have always felt these big operations where the Government might be short of funds should bear the charge of their own proper super- vision. It is a great deal better for the Indians out of their own funds to pay for their own supervision than for their lands to be undesired. : Mr. Burcu. The next agency is Umatilla, Oreg. Mr. Vatentine. We have covered that. I know of nothing par- ticular there at the present time. Mr. Burcu. Union, Okla. Mr. Vatentine. That is an agency to which I want to call your attention. It is under the supervision of the Union Agency that the 16 district agents do their work. Mr. Burcu. The agent is Dana H. Kelsey. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Are there any natural opportunities down there? Mr. Vatentine. All kinds, sir. Mr. Georcre. What kinds? Mr. Varentrne. Well, under the Union Agency are very big oil interests, with thousands of acres of coal land, a million and half acres of timber lands, some asphalt, some very valuable agri- cultural lands, a large quantity of surplus lands of various kinds to 2608 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. be disposed of, big grazing interests—grazing is not as important as most of the others—and the question of the removal of restric- tions in the use of individual money—a very. big agency and a very complicated problem. Mr. Gxorcr. What would you say would be the value of these lands, including all they have? Mr. Vatentine. Including the allotted lands? Mr. Gzorcr. The lands involved. Mr. Vatentrne. Under the Union Agency ? Mr. Grorcr. Yes. i Mr. Vavenrine. They are the tribal lands. The Indians claim, for example, they ought to get something like $60,000,000 for their undisposed-of tribal lands and the value of their allotted lands. T think it would be safe to say the value of everything under the Union Agency would run up into the hundreds of millions. Mr. Gzorcr. Do you mean more than $100,000,000 ? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Georce. Do you mean several hundred millions? Mr. Vatentine. I don’t know that it would run up into several. We asked that because of some question the committee raised, Mr. Kelsey should report on the value of gas and oil properties and agri- cultural lands. He gives here a total value of oil and gas lands of about probably $21,000,000. That added to the coal and coke prop- erties, which have been estimated from $10,000,000 or $12,000,000 up to—I believe Senator La Follette’s estimate was $14,000,000. He felt there was something terrific in the way of property there. Mr. Burcu. That was coal? . Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Assuming, we will say, $15,000,000, there is $36,000,000, and the timber lands are worth at least $3,000,000; that is $39,000,000. There are easily $3,000,000 of allotted lands, so I say the tribal and allotted lands would run up over $100,000,000. Mr. Georcz. Do the tribal lands constitute most of the value? Mr. Vatentine. No; I think the allotted lands would probably outweigh in value the tribal lands. Mr. Grorcs. How many Indians are there to enjoy that? Mr. Vatentine. All told, about 101,000 Indians on the rolls of the Five Civilized Tribes, but that includes 20,000 freedmen and about 2,000 or 3,000 intermarried whites, and some scattered tribes—say, over 70,000 Indians. The Cuairman. How many are interested in the property ? Mr. Vatentine. One hundred and one thousand people. Mr. Gzorcr. How about those deceased? Does Dr. Murphy in his report speak about trachoma ? Mr. Vatentine. He has not gone personally in there, but he had one of his subordinates. Mr. Grorcr. He had other reports from other doctors? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. What does he say about that? __Mr. Vatentine. This report contains no mention of the Five Civ- ilized Tribes, so far as I can see in looking through it hastily. The figures he gives here of Oklahoma are in the western part. Mr. Burcu. Then, these 16 district agents and their 4 supervisors are really safeguarding in effect at least $100,000,000 of property, and how much more there is no way of correctly estimating ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2609 Mr. Vatentine. We could undertake to estimate it, but that would not be fair, Judge, because a very large number of restrictions have been removed in Oklahoma, so that of the 101,000 persons who share more or less in all this property, the Union Agency at the present time under Mr. Kelsey has jurisdiction probably over 40,000 persons. The restrictions have been removed on the rest, and they are naturally handling their own affairs, excepting with regard to tribal property. Mr. Grorcr. Don’t these district agents help them any? Mr. Vatentine. Not the unrestricted Indians. Mr. Georer. Taking the 40,000, what amount of value is in their allotted and tribal lands? Mr. Vatentine. Speaking roughly, that would probably amount to $40,000,000. Mr. Gerorcer. To safeguard the interests of 40,000 Indians, with perhaps $40,000,000 worth of property, would cost considerable ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. That gives you a fair idea of the task; and add to that the human interest of the Indians, and you have a very big problem. Mr. Georcr. You spoke of 26 district agents. Mr. Vatentine. Sixteen; I beg your pardon. Mr. Grorer. I mean the other day; did you speak of 16 or 26? Mr. Vacentine. Sixteen. Mr. Grorcr. There were 16? Mr. Vatentine. Sixteen district agents. Mr. Georce. I had it fixed in my mind it was 26, and for that rea- son I supposed there might be some other part of Oklahoma; but this is the part? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; the old Indian Territory in the eastern part of Oklahoma. Mr. Georce. And it is of that part you spoke the other day of the possibility of there being 16 White Earths? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. In other words, you multiply the White Earth situation 16 times, and, to be fair, you have to divide it by 2, because the number of Indians under the jurisdiction of the district agents is about half the number of White Earth. Each district agency has about 2,500, so you would, literally speaking, have 8 White Earths if you removed the 16 district agents. Mr. Grorce. You would have more value down there? Mr. Varentrne. In many cases, probably, you would, but differ- ent in different cases. Mr. Grorcz. And how much money outlay? Mr. Vatentrne. One hundred thousand dollars is the appropria- tion which carries those district agents, pays their salaries, and pro- vides for all their expenses. Mr. Grorce. And the elimination of the $100,000 from the Indian appropriation bill would, you think, work this? Mr. Varentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. On that line, apart from preventing the disposi- tion of or the grabbing of the property of the Indians, do those dis- trict agents perform any service in the way of developing and up- lifting the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; that is what I meant when I spoke a moment ago of the human interest. The work is primarily their work, be- cause all their time is taken up by it. 2610 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuatrman. You mean the main thing is what you call the human side of their work? _ Mr. Vatentine. The human side is proper, because it has to be. If they are the right sort of men they can help them every day in the human way, and to supplement that I have interested farmers to work and cooperate with the district agents. The farmers work in connection with them; and then we reorganized the school system down there, and tried to bring that force to bear also. Mr. Grorce. Speaking of the elimination of this $100,000, on what grounds is this elimination mentioned ? Mr. Vatentine. I referred, I believe, when we were on that sub- ject the other day, to the pages in the report of the subcommittee of the House of Representatives that contains the arguments of various gentlemen on the subject. : Mr. Grorez. Meaning economy ? Mr. Vatentine. I have not heard that advanced. Mr. ‘Burcu. Uselessness ? Mr. Vatentine. I have heard that advanced; yes, sir. Mr. Grorer. What else? Mr. Vatentine. One of the main objections was that there were great delays caused by so much red tape. I tried to point out that the actual work the district agent does tends to prevent such de- lays as are now being complained of at White Earth. There have also been charges that some of the district agents were engaged in political work. I confess I can not understand, in the light of all the facts as presented by Mr. Kelsey and Mr. Commissioner Wright, and the statements made in the letters of nearly all the probate judges and tribal officers, and many first-class citizens down there—I can not understand myself what the reason is for the objection to the district agents there. Mr. Georcz. If you will just give me those references again I will be obliged. Mr. Vatentine. The references are pages 266 to 324, inclusive, in the report of the subcommittee of the House Committee on Indian Affairs for 1912, current bill. The Cuarrman. Mr. Valentine, I asked you several days ago if you had now on hand in the bureau sufficient funds out of which to meet the conditions that exist on White Earth, and you said you thought you had not, but you could not be specific about it. Can you be more specific now ? Mr. Vatentine. I had a memorandum prepared, Mr. Chairman, that I thought would give you just what you wanted to know. Be- vond the $20,000 for the erection of this hospital, for which bids were asked, this memorandum seems to show that there are at present no funds available for the relief of conditions at White Earth. The terest of the Chippewa and Minnesota fund has already been hypothecated for other seemingly necessary purposes, and only in- terest would be available. The Cuarirman. A bill has been introduced in the House asking for an appropriation of $25,000 to meet their immediate necessities. Is such a bill necessary for such purpose? Mr. Vatentine. I think so, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2611 The Cuairman. That was the point I wanted to cover on that line. There was another line of questions asked you, and I have been thinking over the answers. The questions were really at fault, but together the questions and answers did not clear up the situation for me, and that is with reference to the number of Indians in the country now compared with the number of Indians when the white man came. You gave the figures as the estimated population when the ee man came to America, and what do you estimate that total ¢ Mr. Vatentine. About 500,000. The Cuairman. Did that estimate apply to the time or near the time of the discovery of America, or to the beginning of settlements? Did it apply to the fifteenth or sixteenth centuries? Mr. Vauentine. I think they generally use the date as when Columbus landed, about 1492. The Cuairman. About the beginning of the sixteenth century ? - Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. In giving the numbers at this time I think you gave about 300,000. Mr. Vatentine. Three hundred and twenty-seven thousand. The Cuairman. Did that include every person who was supposed to have Indian blood in him? Mr. VaLenTINE. I don’t think it does, sir, accurately. The Cuatrman. How does it include, and to what extent does it include, mixed bloods? Mr. Vauentrine. It includes probably all persons having Indian blood of any degree, except some who may have been so scattered that they no longer appear as Indians. I do not know whether some Members of Conghess, who have Indian blood, are included in that or not. Then that number of 327,000 also includes about over 20,000 freedmen and 2,000 or 3,000 intermarried whites and some scattered adoptions. The Cuarrman. Of the 327,000, would it be reasonably safe to assume that no more than 150,000 had half or morethan half Indian ‘blood, or would 100,000 be nearer the truth? Mr. Varentine. Well, I should have to be guessing there. I could probably make an estimate. I would say that it would be safe to say that 150,000, or about half, a little less than half, of all the persons would be of half blood or more—somewhere between there and 100,000. The Cuarrman. Do you think the proportion which we have been assuming exists at White Earth would prevail generally as to the number of full bloods, or the per cent of full bloods—that is, one- fifth ? Mr. Vatentine. That is too small as a general estimate. The Cuarrman. What proportion or per cent of full bloods would you estimate out of the 327,000? Mr. Vazrentrine. It would probably be in these days somewhere between a fourth and a third rather than a fifth. The Cuairman. A fourth would make nearly 82,000, and a third would make 109,000. Mr. Vatentrine. Yes, sir. 2612 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. So you would approximate the number of full bloods at 100,000, more or less? Mr. Vatentrne. I should say 100,000, or less. The Cuairman. The question arose, you will recall, several days ago, by a statement made by some one, I think Mr. Van Meter, of . Minnesota, that there were as many Indians in the country now as there ever were? Mr. Vatentine. I did not hear his statement. The Cuairman. That statement was made in substance by some- body, I do not recall who, but such a statement is even more deceptive than a half truth. Mr. Vatentine. I should think so. The Cuartrman. The number of real Indians has decreased very materially since the white man came to North America? Mr. Varentine. Very materially, both by actual. death and by intermarriage. Mr. Georce. Even assuming there were 500,000, that would seem to be pretty strong assumption. The Cuarrman. You mean too great or too small? Mr. Gzorer. Too small, I should say. The Cuarrman. It is difficult for me to see how this entire con- tinent could be inhabited by only 500,000 people. Mr. Vatentine. It is only a guess I am giving you by what re- searchers have stated. They say this continent, since the ancient people existed in the Southwest, was not occupied by Indians; that all the signs seem to show that even in these early days there were groups of Indians here and there, and wide spaces between abso- lutely uninhabited, so that the idea that many people have that this country was not only overrun, but even largely inhabited by Indians, is supposed to be erroneous. Mr. Grorcs. Yet the explorers went to territory which did not have inhabitants in it—they went everywhere east of the Rockies, and everywhere west of the Rockies, for that matter, where there was water and game, and where there were water and game there were Indians. Mr. Vatentine. I think Catlin, in one of his books, speaks of traveling toward the Missouri River, and of traveling a great length of time before ‘he came to signs of Indians, which would indicate that the groups were far between. The Cuamrman. It is an academic question, at best. Mr. Vazentine. It is a wild guess, of course. The Cuairman. I want to go back a moment to those oil leases. In answering one of the questions you told us that latterly the con- ditions have been improved very much as to leases that were made recently; that they have better terms in them than the earlier ones? Mr. Vatentine. Pardon me, I don’t think I meant just that, although I think there has been an improvement in the leases. What oo in mind was the price had very materially gone up, the price of oil. The Cuairman. And the betterment was in the increased market price of oil rather than in the conditions of the Jease? Mr. Vatentine. That is what I had in mind at that time, in my testimony. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2613 Mr. Burcu. How did they get the market price if there was not opposition ? Mr. Vatentine. There was always a question of that in my mind. The Cuairman. As to the other feature of it, which I probably misunderstood at first: Have the later leases better terms in them apart from the price of oil than the earlier ones had? Mr. Vatentine. I think so. I think the leases now being consid- ered in the Osage country, for example—I have not been able to give that my personal attention—but I think they are better. The Cuairman. In what respect ? Mr. Vatentine. In respect to the amount of royalty, and in other safeguards as to the relations between the lessor and lessee. The Cuairman. I suppose the royalty is the principal question, of course? Mr. Va.entine. It is a very important question, but so are the regulations under which the business is handled. The Caairman. As, for instance? Mr. Vatentine. Well, the relations between the producer, the. pipe-line company, and the lessor—the respective relations between those three parties. The Cuairman. The pipe-line company, then, is usually a sepa- rate company? The lessee is not usually the owner of the pipe line? Mr. Vatentine. No; that differs in different cases. In some cases the pipe-line companies are also producers. In other words, there is an independent producer, either really or apparently, selling to the pipe-line company. In some cases, therefore, the Indian, or the Indian Office for him, deals directly with one party who is possibly both a producer, a carrier, and the refiner. In other words, he might be one-third or two-thirds. The Cuarrman. Some of these leases run for a long term of vears, do they not? Mr. Vatentine. They used to in the old days—15-year leases. Now, I believe, they run as long as oil and gas are produced. The CHarrman. There was one very large lease in the Osage country covering several hundred thousand acres of land. Mr. Vatenrine. That was the Foster lease, I believe. The Cuarrman. When was it first made? Mr. Vatentine. I do not recall, sir. The Cuarrman. A very long time ago, however. Mr, Vatentine. About 10 years ago. The Cuarrman. Was it renewed ? Mr. Vatenrine. I think it was renewed in 1905. The Cuarrman. It had expired by limitation and was renewed for a period of 10 years? : Mr. Vatentine. That is my recollection. The Cuarrman. So it would not expire until 1915 or 1916? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Congress itself acted on that matter-—in the ex- tension ? Mr. Vatentine. I think Congress authorized the President to make the extension and fix the royalty. ; The Cuarrman. Do you recall what royalty the President fixed ? 2614 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I think the royalty had formerly been one-tenth, and I think the President raised it’to one-eighth. I am speaking from a very hazy memory, however. The Cuarrman. Under that lease, as renewed by the President, has it not become the custom there to sublet? Is it not true that the lessees themselves have not been operating, and that they have been operated at a very large royalty ? Mr. Vauentine. J think so. I think the holders of the Foster lease sublet to the company called the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co., and I think in their turn the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co. have subleased to others. The Cuairman. Do you know what the difference is between the terms fixed by the President and the highest terms paid under the sublease? In other words, what margin did the terms of the lease fixed by the President leave the lessees under that lease? Mr. VaLentine. Well—— The Cuarrman. Let me put it in a form you can not misunder- stand: Is it not true that in some cases the leases under a certain lease are sublet at a profit to them of 15 per cent, or as much as that? Mr. Vatentine. Well, I don’t know, Mr. Chairman, just what the arrangements are between the lessees and the various sublessees. Of course, the Indian gets his royalty irrespective of the arrangements between the various lessees. The Cuarrman. Wouldn’t he get it on the original lease only? : Mr. Vatentine. He would simply get an eighth on the original ease. The Cuairman. One-eighth or one-tenth? Mr. Vatentine. It was changed to one-eighth. The Cuarrman. Do you feel certain about that? Mr. Vatentins. That was my understanding. It had formerly been one-tenth and the President made it one-eighth. The Cuarrman. Twelve and one-half per cent? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. You do not know whether the person who agrees to pay him that—that is, the first lessee—has sublet in such a way that his sublessee pays him a certain per cent? Mr. Vatentine. I would have to look that up. I do not recall arrangements between the lessees and the sublessees. The Cuairman. Your office would have nothing to do with it? Mr. Varentine. I would assume that we would probably know what some of these arrangements are, but we would not have any business relations after that transaction, unless there were some supervision of the subleasing. I think—it has just occurred to me— the assignments between the lessees and sublessees have to be passed on by the department. The Crairman. Yes, no doubt assignments would; but a sublease would be different from an assignment, because the lessee under his first lease would hold it and unless prohibited by the terms of it might make a new lease to another party. _ Mr. Vatentine. We have assignments and what are called “ work- ing contracts,”—Mr. Meritt just mentioned to me—but I was rather WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2615 of the impression that most of the relations between lessees and sub- lessees took the form of assignments. I may be wrong in that. The Cuarrman. If this releasing took place in 1905, the chances are that it was made to the Standard Oil. At that time the Stand- ard Oil had not much competition. Mr. Vatentine. I do not know about that. The Cuamrman. Had any suits attacking the Standard Oil Co. been begun as early as 1905? Mr. Vatentine. I could not tell you. Mr. Burcu. You mean dissolving the Standard Oil. The Cuarrman. There were some suits brought against them be- fore the dissolution was started. I was calling attention to the man- ner in which they were brought. In Chicago, criminal proceedings were begun before the dissolution proceedings began. At 5.20 p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, March 26, at 10.30 a. m. SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Tuesday, March 26, 1912. The subcommittee this day met, with Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) and Hon. Henry George, jr., present. TESTIMONY OF MR. ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS—Continued. The Cuairman. The committee is ready to proceed, Mr. Burch. Mr. Burcu. We had passed Union, Okla., yesterday, and we now reach Vermillion Lake, Minn. What is that? Mr. Vatenvine. That is a small jurisdiction, a school and agency; J think of nothing particular to say about that. Mr Burcu. Chippewas? Mr. Vatentine. I think so. Mr. Burcu. Volcan, Cal. Mr. Vatentine. We have already covered that in connection with the mission reservations. There are questions of boundary lines there, I think; at least there are on some of those mission reserva- tions, questions of a good deal of importance. Mr. Burcu. What is the nature of those questions? Mr. Vatentine. Disputes as to the actual boundaries of the res- ervations between the Indians and the whites or Mexican settlers in the country. Some of the reservations, of course, were based on old grants. Mr. Burcu. This is southern California? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. . Mr. Burcu. Wahpeton? Mr. Vatentine. That is a school. Mr. Borcu. In North Dakota? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Walker River, Nev.? Mr. Vatentine. I think of nothing to call your attention to there. Mr. Burcu. What is it—a school? Mr. Vatentine. That is an agency. Mr. Burcu. Western Navajo, Ariz. I presume that is the same as the rest of the Navajos? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; that is included in the general Navajo propositions. The health conditions are very bad at western Navajo. Mr. Burcu. What is the trouble, tuberculosis? Mr. Vatenting. Dr. Murphy’s report shows a high degree of trachoma. Mr. Burcu. And do they have tuberculosis? 2616 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2617 Mr. Vatentine. I doubt whether they have much of that; I could not tell you offhand. Mr. Burcu. Western Shoshone, Nev. ? Mr. Varentine. That is usually called the Duck Valley Reserva- tion. I think of nothing particular there at the moment. Mr. Burcu. Is that in northern Nevada near Idaho? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. South of Shoshone Falls and the great Snake River operations ? Mr. VatenTINne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. There is nothing particular there? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. We have been investigating White Earth, Minn., which comes next, and I will pass that. Winnebago, Nebr. ? Mr. VaLentine. We touched on that briefly in connection with the Omaha Reservation. Mr. Burcu. I suppose that is pretty well settled—that is, matters there are pretty well settled? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; and the reports indicate that the Indians are making industrial progress and are increasing their farming operations. Mr. Burcu. Wittenberg, Wis., where is that, and what is it? Mr. Vatentine. That is a school. I know of nothing particular to call your attention to about it. Mr. Burcu. Now, Yakima, Wash. ? Mr. Vatentine. That is one of our big problems. Mr. Burcu. I have heard something about that. What is it? Mr. Vatentine. Well, they have a great irrigation problem there, and they have about $4,000,000 worth of timber. Mr. Burcu. Under whom? Mr. Vatentine. The Indian service has been doing the reclama- tion work. Mr. Burcu. And they have about $4,000,000 worth of timber? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Has that been sold? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Are the whites concerned in this reclamation project? Mr. Vatentine. To some extent, yes. Mr. Burcu. Has the reservation been opened ? Mr, Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Burcu. Yakima is the residence of Senator Wesley Jones, of Washington—or North Yakima? - Mr. Vatentine. I do not know where he lives. Mr. Burcu. Are Yakima and North Yakima about the same? Mr. Vatentine. I have not been there; I do not know just how far they are apart. Mr. Burcu. Is the Yakima Reservation on the Northern Pacific Road ? Mr. Vatent ne. I think so; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. East of the Cascade Mountains and west of Spokane? Mr. Vatentine. No; I think not; I do not know how they come in there. The Yakima Reservation is, perhaps, 50 or 100 miles west of the Big Bend in the Columbia River. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——70 2618 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. But this is east of the Cascade Range. I have been through there. Mr. Grorcr. Are those mountains very close to the coast? Mr, Vatentine. Yes; I think they form part of the western part of the reservation. I know that up in the western end of the reser- vation there are very valuable storage facilities, and there is now a private company that is bringing water from up in there on the Klickitat River, which will be brought down through two tunnels in the mountains to the slopes on the east and will irrigate, they hope, about 350,000 acres in the Horse Heaven country, I believe it is called. It is a very tremendous scheme, and it involves, in a cer- tain sense, contests between the irrigation work and water power. Mr. Burcu. The Cascade Range comes to be the Sierra Nevada Range farther south and the Sierra Madre still farther south. Mr. Grorcr. Going west you slide down the mountains and pres- ently come into Spokane; what are those mountains? Mr. Burcu. That is the Rocky Range. Mr. Georcr. Have they not a local name? Mr. Burcu. They probably have; yes. Mr. Gzorcr. But they are the general Rockies? Mr. Burcu. Yes; but coming east you slide down the Cascade Range into this Yakima country. Mr. Grorcr. Are outside interests endeavoring to get water power in this particular Yakima country ? Mr. Vatentrine. The one that I just spoke of is an outside irriga- tion interest. There are also on the Klickitat River, off the reserva- tion, a number of good water powers, and there are also some on the north of the reservation; but whether they are trying to get those on the reservation or not I can not tell you. Mr. Grorcr. Are those two interests in any kind of conflict? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. If the irrigation project went through one of the burdens which the project would have to bear would be a settlement with the power-site holders on the Klickitat River, be- cause they would take so much water from the upper Klickitat that the power would be greatly diminished. Mr. Gzorcr. The conflict would be between those who wanted to use it for power and those who wanted to use it for irrigation? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely. Mr. Burcu. There are private irrigation projects in Yakima, are there not? Mr. Vatentinr. I do not know of any on the reservation, although there are the Sunnyside projects and other projects on the river bordering the reservation. _ Mr. Burcu. Is the Department of Justice in any way concerned in any of these matters? Have any of these questions been relegated to them ? Mr. Vatentine. I think not. Mr. Burcu. They have not gotten into that subject? They are handled by your bureau? Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Meritt tells me that a bill has been introduced which would authorize the Attorney General to appear on behalf of the Indians in the adjudication of their water rights. Mr. Burcu. Yankton, S. Dak. That is the Yankton Sioux? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2619 Mr. Burcu. Is that a school ? Mr. Vatentine. That is a reservation and a school. Mr. Burcu. And partakes of the nature of the Sioux problems generally ? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr, Burcu. Zuni, N. Mex. They are sort of Pueblos, are they not ¢ Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Me Burcu. They are just a small branch of the — r. VALENTINE (interposing). They are Pueblo Indians, but just what their relation to the others is I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Are there any particular problems among the Zunis? Mr. Vatentine. We have a big dam there, one end of which has sunk away; that has caused a great deal of expense and, of course, there is an irirgation problem in connection with that. But I do not know of anything in particular to call your attention to beyond that. There is some timber and grazing. Mr. Burcu. I have now finished the regular list of matters pre- sided over by Indian superintendents. I observe on the next page—— Mr. Grorce (interposing). Of what? Mr. Burcu. Of the roster of officers of the United States Indian Service. I notice a list of officials; some are called special disburs- ing agents. I suppose those merely pertain to what we have gone over before? Mr. Vatentine. Very largely. We have special disbursing agents for the Indian Reclamation Service at the different points of opera- tion, and we have a special disbursing Indian agent at the Neopit Mills, and at the Menominee Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Are those officers bonded ? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. They are obliged to render their accounts to the ac- counting officers of the Interior Department ? Mr. VatentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And the Treasury? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. I notice a list of superintendents of schools for the Five Civilized Tribes. Have they any other offices except that of superintendent of schools? Do they have any other jurisdiction? Mr. Vauentine. No, sir. They are the: men who were under the general jurisdiction of the Union Agency, but when we reorganized the schools in the Five Civilized Tribes we took over the former contract work that was done there. Mr. Burcu. Contract work of what kind? Mr. Vauentine. The schools had formerly been run by contract with the school superintendent; under the contract he furnished supplies and ran the school, but we found that a rather unsatisfac- tory way, and there changed to the same system we have elsewhere in the country. Mr. Burcu. I notice on a still further page of the roster this head- ing, “Indian agencies and reservations placed under charge of school superintendents.” We have gone over this same subject in dealing with the first line of examination, have we not? 2620 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatenrine. Yes; those merely more specifically define the jurisdictions which we have gone over. : ; ; Mr. Burcu. Now, as I have gone through the list and finished it, Mr. Valentine, in connection with your general duties, I would like to ask you this question: What possibility there may be of what might be termed a popular Indian commissioner—that is, an Indian commissioner who would be able to satisfy all demands and all arties? R Mr. Vatentine. Well, I should say that the minute he became popular he ought to be fired. Mr. Grorcr. Why? Mr. VALENTINE. ‘Banana his popularity would almost indicate on its face that he had the good will of too many people. Mr. Burcu. You mean a class of people, included among others, with whom it would be impossible to be honest and be popular? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. I think I can explain a little better if I answered you in this way. Mr. Burcu. Please do so. Mr. Vatentine. Offhand, the Indian Commissioner could take, I should say, one of three courses on entering office. He could seek to please everybody. Whenever a request was made of him, of any kind, by any Congressman or Senator, by any organization, like the Indian Rights Association or the Bureau of Catholic Indian Missions, or any other organization or group of people, or by any ‘individual, he could seek to please them all; but it would not be necessary, of course, for me to dwell on the fact that by merely doing that he would be absolutely false to his trust; and he would soon get into pretty hot water, because in pleasing one he would be bound to offend another, and having no soul of his own, so to speak, he would be adrift. He would be like Kipling’s Tomlinson, who could not get into either heaven or hell because he had committed no crime nor done any good act in his own right. That would be one way of tackling the job. Another way of tackling the job would be to ally himself with some one large force. For instance, he could seek to run his office— und I am speaking now without any comment on the propriety or impropriety—as a Republican, as a distinctive part of the Repub- lican administration, or he could seek to run his office as a Demo- crat, or he could try, above all other things, to keep the good will of some of the large private societies, such as allying himself with the Indian Rights Association, for example, and other bodies of that kind, like the California Indian Association, and seek to act as their representative. Mr. Burcu. And according to their ideas? Mr. Varentine. And according to their ideas. Such a man, of course, would be a tool. The third course that he could take would be to belong to nobody, fear nobody, officially love nobody, but sim- ply do in every case what seemed to him right; seek all the informa- tion possible, give opportunity for all of the varied interests, organi- zations, political parties, groups of people and individuals to place tacts and data before him, but be his own man and make his own decisions. Such a man, I think it is almost axiomatic, would sooner or later offend pretty nearly every interest or group or individual who had asked him for anything and who had not gotten it. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2621 Mr. Burcu. And be very unpopular? Mr. Vatentine. And be very unpopular. I should say that a man pursuing the last course would reach a point where his efficiency as Commissioner of Indian Affairs might be injured, unless the peo- ple of the United States got behind him because they felt he was trying to do right. Mr. Burcu. How soon after you came into office was it that you began to be assailed ? Mr. Varentine. Oh, I think very near the beginning. Mr. Grorcr. Assailed by whom? . Mr. Vatentine. By different people who did not like what I was oing. Mr. Georges. For instance, by what people? Mr. Varentine. Well, I think rather early in my career various attorneys did not like me, and various other persons. Mr. Grorcz. Well, for your abstract views or your concrete views ? Mr. Varentine. Both, sir; but chiefly concrete, I should say. Mr. Georce. Well, people do not trouble very much about abstract things in the Indian Service, do they? Mr. Vatentine. I am sorry to say they do not, and that is why I added “ chiefly concrete.” Mr. Grorcr. And attorneys would not come there unless they rep- resented somebody? In fact, the word “attorney” suggests they are there to represent somebody. What kind of attorneys? Mr. Vatentine. Well, all kinds. Mr. Grorcr. Well, representing some people who are after water rights, mineral rights or other privileges possessed by the Indians? r. VALENTINE. Very frequently; yes, sir. Mr. Georcs. So the thing takes a very concrete form, does it not? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely. Mr. Georcr. And the chief enemy or friend that one must recog- nize in such an office as that, as was indicated at the beginning of your testimony, or the latter part of it, at any rate, is big business? It is really big business, or its representative, that calls at the office of the Indian Commission very early on his taking his chair, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. I should say so; yes. Mr. Grorer. And he is the chief embarrassment; that is, he says, “Please go with me, Mr. Commissioner, or accept me as your enemy.” The Cuarrman. By “he” you mean big business? Mr. Grorcr. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. That would be one of the show-downs that the commissioner would meet early in his term of office. Mr. Grorer. Well, it is the chief show-down, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. I think probably it is, sir, in many ways. Mr. Georce. Assuming that any commissioner would have to recog- nize party lines in one way or another—any commissioner would be of one party or another, or have his appomtment from one or the other party sources, would he not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. “ : Mr. Grorcr. He might attempt to be as nonpartisan as his nature would permit him to ’be, and try to deal fairly as a public official, but that would be something that any man going into office would have to face? 2622 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gores. Then, there are good-intenticned people who come there who think that some abstract policy would be good for the Indians, and I suppose there are many people and some associations who come to try out abstract ideas ; Mr. Vauenrrne (interposing). Yes, sir. ; Mr. Georce (continuing). Upon these people,-these benighted people, the Indians, or unfortunate people, as they are regarded? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gxorcr. So that any commissioner would have to face those things? But the real difficulties, as pointed out by your testimony, would appear to me to be those people who come to make fortunes out of the natural opportunities the Indians have on their reserva- tions ¢ Mr. Vatentine. That is absolutely correct, I think, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Here are certain water rights, here is a water power, here is an irrigation power, here is a certain amourt of mineral land, a certain amount of timber land, a certain amount of pasture land, or agricultural land, mineral land, or oil land. Now, then, it would seem from your testimony as though a great: many of the people of the United States think that anything the Indian has is subject to be stolen, if they can get it, and that there are certain interested parties always around these Indian reservations who are bent on getting these things, and it would appear to me, from your testimony, as though these people who are set upon getting the Indians’ lands are the people who make the greatest struggle for the commissioner; that they are the people he has to be most careful of, and if he is going to make friends with them he is one kind of a commissioner, and if he is going to make enemies of them he is another kind of a commissioner; or do you believe it is possible to be on such terms with those interests that you can be friendly and yet be just to the Indians and your oath of office? Mr. Vatentine. Well, personally, I have tried to eliminate abso- lutely personal feeling of any kind. I hold myself open in my office to anyone who comes to see me; I let people come into my office and talk to me whom I would not have in my home. Mr. Grorar. As a public official? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. I have thought I did not have the physique, physically or mentally, to enter into personal squabbles of any kind. So, however much I might feel indignant at certain things that were tried to be put over, I have tried to handle them in an absolutely cool and dispassionate manner. But aside from that, I should say that it would be impossible, answering your ques- tion directly as I understand it, to be on friendly terms in any way with very many different kinds of people and still be true to one’s oath of office in behalf of the Indians. Mr. Gzorer. Therefore, the commissioner can not be expected to eS iPendly to everybody if he is going to be true to his oath of office ? _ Mr. VatenTINeE. I should say that the worst thing in a commis- sioner would be to be what is known as a “good fellow”; he has got to realize the moment he takes office that he stands alone and has nothing but truth to rest on. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2623 Mr. Gerorce. Is not that the chief difficulty of the office? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. I will call your attention to the fact that a stone in the shoe is sometimes as much of a block to a man’s walking as rheumatism in his leg, and that not only big business but all the little things, particularly when taken in the aggregate, so push in on him that he must not have such relations with anybody that will interfere in the slightest degree with his doing, to the best of his ability, what he thinks right in each particular case. Mr. Grorcr. From your testimony it would appear to me that the possession by the Indians of these great opportunities of nature are really embarrassments in the progress of the Indians? Mr. Vatentine. I am glad you put it just that way; I think that is very largely true. The Navajos, for example, are Indians who are considered not to have anything of great value and they have con- sequently been more let alone. Mr. Georcr. Suppose these Indians had no timber lands; oil lands, or lands of any such value; suppose they had only agricultural land of medium quality? ; Mr. Vatentine. They would be infinitely better off, Mr. George. Mr. Grorcs. Would it simplify the bureau’s work ? Mr. Vatentinz. Enormously. If you could just fix it so that each family would have enough land or enough chance at a trade to make an honest living, and enough for the Government to carry them until they could be properly trained to do that, you would have - an ideal social condition. ° Mr. Georcr. And yet here they are endowed by nature with such riches in the earth, and it would appear from your testimony and going over this whole roster, that the Indians themselves are in danger of being robbed, and that they have to take precautions against that or lose their riches, or the Government must take care of them? Mr. Vatentine. Four-fifths of the time of the Indian commis- sioner is taken up with these property interests, which not only have no direct relation to the present constructive progress of the Indians, economically and socially, but are rather the reverse. In other words, I am able, perhaps, to give less than one-fifth of my time to the human social work to which the bureau ought to devote the whole of its time. Mr. Grorcr. And yet three-fourths of your time is taken up the other way ? : Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; four-fifths. Mr. Grorcr. Have you ever made any estimate as to the pro- portion of the Indians who are affected in this way? If you took all of the Indians of the United States in the care of the Govern- ment, what proportion would you say were affected by these prop- erty interests in this derogatory fashion? Mr. Vatentine. Well, somewhere between a half and three-fourths, at least. Mr. Grorce. So that the Indians are positively handicapped in rising to our life and our civilization by the natural riches they have? Mr. Vatentine. Yes. Suppose on the White Earth Reservation, where you have been, there had been nothing but ordinary agricul- tural lands of good quality, but no timber, and allotment could have a 2624 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. been -made in a way that gave each Indian his fair unit, on which he could be taught to make a living. If that had been done, you would have had no such pressure, no such numerous bills, no such numerous acts, no such things diverting all the energies of the Gov- ernment away from the health, industry, and schooling which are the three things we want to get at with regard to the Indians, because the bait would not have been so rich as to attract all these open enemies and these underground enemies. Mr. Gxorcr. Do you believe that the Government has sufficiently recognized the fact that you are now pointing out—that these ener- ies of the Indian Bureau are so largely occupied with property interests? Mr. Vatenrine. I think it is hardly recognized at all, sir. I have made the statement before committee after committee at various times, and it is very hard to bring the thing home. Mr. Grorcr. Do you not think it is time the thing should be brought home? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely, sir. The Cuatrman. How would you meet it so as to give the officers of oie bare opportunity to look after the human side of it, as you ut it? : Mr. Vauenrine. Well, I have thought of many different plans, Mr. Chairman. I would either strengthen enormously the present administration of Indian affairs—give it the means and the men,tu deal with the problems—or if certain fundamental bureaucratic diff- culties seem to be in the way of that, advocate some outside effort in the way of a real working commission or body of men to handle the big property questions, leaving the bureau to handle the other end of it. For instance, the first thing that needs to be done to-day, in my judgment, is to have a survey made of every Indian reservation in the country along the lines of the Pittsburgh survey of these large copa activities that are just becoming a new part of our national ife. The Cuairman. By “survey” you mean to have a careful exami- nation made of the social and economic conditions on every reser- vation and have it printed in public document form? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir; and have it made by big men—experts and men of common sense. Mr. Grorcz. That is, as to the number of Indians, the condition of the Indians as to health and disease, and all these other ques- tions—the natural opportunities, the nature of the soil, the extent of the soil, and the character of the homes? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. The homes they live in, the moral environment, and all that? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. And you see it is most worth doing, because I do not know of any finer group of people in the United States than the Indians are—that is, in the native qualities they pos- sess and if they had been given a fair chance. They have fine minds and are of good physique. Mr. Grorcr. Even in the wreck of their fortunes as we now find them, and even in the wrecked fortunes at White Earth, for instance, they have opportunities which, if they really had a chance to enjoy WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2625 them, would enable them to develop into a fine race of men, it would appear to me. Mr. Vatentine. Splendid; there is no question about it. Mr. Georcr. Is that your feeling? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely. I think what the Indians themselves have accomplished, despite the grafters that have tried to rob them of their lands, and dspite the way they have been robbed of their backbone by improper benefits, and the way they stand up to-day throughout the country in all of the tribes, is something that any race should be very proud to have as a showing.” Mr. Georce. Is there anywhere any such thing as that we are now speaking about? Mr. Vatentine. You are breaking new ground in many ways. There have been many different efforts made and much good done, but this particular concrete proposition, such as has been developed in the last half hour, I think is something which is, in a sense, new. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, do you believe it would be possible, under the conditions you have described—that is, of a vast number of acts of Congress to deal with, a vast array of conflicting interests and a large number of appropriation acts, and taking into considera- tion also the personnel of the Indian Bureau and the personnel of the people in the field—to accomplish reforms in the present Indian Bureau, or do you think it would be better to wipe it out and begin anew! In other words, can you renovate the bureau and build up reforms or rearrange the present Indian Bureau better than if a com- mission should propose some plan after a careful study of it for a de novo management of the Indian question and Indian affairs? I have heard it questioned as to whether it would not be well to wipe a the Indian Bureau altogether, and I would like your ideas upon that. Mr. Vatentine. Well, it seems to me that that would be one of the first questions for the commission to decide—whether it would be better to try to renovate the old house or build a new one. Mr. Grorcr. Suppose we are the commission and you are giving advice to your associates; what would you say ? Mr. Vatentine. I should say it depended entirely upon whether, first. of all, it was possible to get through Congress sufficient legis- lative reforms. Mr. Gezorcz. Assuming that you can get anything through Con- gress that seems to agree with common sense and justice, what would you propose as a practical plan? Mr. Varentrine. Assuming that you can get the necessary legisla- tion through Congress, I would propose as a practical plan a reno- vation of the existing administration of Indian affairs, possibly sup- plemented by a permanent commission of some kind. Mr. Grorcr. Well, renovation would seem to me to be the cleaning out of some men and the putting in of some other men, and I do not have very much faith in that myself. Mr. Vaztentine. I mean much more than that. I did not mean renovation merely of personnel. I meant, for instance, getting the appropriations in such shape and with such terms in them as would make simple administration possible and provide for such regula- tions in the Indian Bureau as exist among the practical social work- ers of the country. 2626 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grorce. Well, that is personnel. Mr. Vatentine. That, of course, is personnel. ; Mr. Grorcr. But you mean to take out little men and put in big men ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How about the codification of the laws and the elimi- nation of large numbers of these present existing complex acts of Congress ? Mr. VaLentine. That was involved, of course, in my statement of general legislative revision. aa: Mr. Grorcz. But what about the fundamental conditions; what about a change of system? Have you in mind any kind of a radical change in the system of things? For instance, in your testimony you suggested that an association of some kind or an outside commission take care of what you described as the property interests and ad- minister them for the good of the Indians, and that might supple- ment the work of the bureau and leave to the bureau, as it is now constituted, or as it might be simplified, the administration of the humanitarian side, the education, the procurement of employment for the Indians, teaching them how to work, how to plant, how to do everything that goes in the use of the soil under primitive conditions, and then bring them up to higher conditions of production and a higher life. Have you in mind any kind of a structure of govern- ment that might be supplemental to the present Indian Bureau, hav- ing ie made a part of it or outside of it, but associated with it in some way? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think I can say, seeking to avoid any duplication or unnecessary friction, that the establishment of a very strong commission, possibly temporary, that is, serving for a period of five years, with the idea at that time of considering its future con- tinuance, either as independent of or merged into the bureau, would be the only feasible way, not only to get renovation but reconstruc- tion, a nonpartisan commission, and an economic and social com- mission. Mr. Burcu. Something like the Interstate Commerce Commis- sion—is that the idea? Mr. Vatentine. Well, something to deal specifically with these problems which we have to deal with before we can begin to reach the individual Indian, and get all of those things cleaned out before the Indians are all dead or diseased, by one of the biggest attempts to do a big thing in a short time that has ever been undertaken, in- stead of pottering along in the way we are doing. Mr. Grorcr. You never developed any distinct plan, did you? Mr. Vatentine. Not along that line. I have bent my energies, in what public speaking and writing I have done, in trying to stir up public opinion as to the need of doing something. Mr. Gzorcz. The present hour is so beset with difficulties that you have not gone very much beyond that? Mr. Vatentine. I have not time enough in a day or strength enough in my body to do it. Mr. Grorcz. You have never thought out a plan, have you? _ Mr. Vatentine. I think I have in a general way, sir, along the lines that I have been speaking; but I have never been able to get anybody else interested in it. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2627 Mr. Burcu. If you were to propose a commission of this kind for the purpose of looking after these property rights, to be composed of five fairly salaried men, with the necessary assistance, about how many thousand candidates would you expect would offer themselves for that position, including the various humanitarian and other societies and people who generally think they know all about it? Mr. Vatentine. Well, there would be a great many. Mr. Burcu. Many thousands? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know that it would go into the thousands, but it would surely go into the hundreds. Mr. Burcu. Is not that one of the troubles you experience to quite an extent—that people who think they know it all and just how it should be done urge you to do it in that way? Mr. VaLenTine. Precisely. Mr. Burcu. And bother you while you are trying to deal with propositions in turn? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. It is a subject of which somebody always feels he has knowledge. Mr. Grorce. Is not that the weakness of these commissions —an essential reason ? Mr. Vatentine. I think it is. Mr. Grorcs. So that what we are trying to think out now is how to get away from bad commissions? Now, when you speak about a strong commission what do you mean? Do you mean men of strong character ? Mr. VaLentTIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorce. Men with strong and clearly defined views, and with a determination to stick to those views and persist despite all con- trary forces? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely; and also to approach this problem with an open mind as to the facts and the lovers of the truth and despisers of dishonest things. Mr. Georcs. If I get your idea it is that if a commission were composed of persons supposed to be experienced in Indian affairs they would be less likely to succeed than persons who knew nothing about them, but who were strong men and willing to receive light from all sources? Mr. Vatentine. Absolutely. I do not think that first-hand knowl- edge of Indian affairs would be an essential, because the right kind of men would get the information they would need. Suppose on this commission were a man—I do not know him very well and he might on further examination turn out not to be the best man for the place—like Luther Gulick, of New York; suppose you had a person like Dr. Graham Taylor, of Chicago; I think those two men will represent a certain type of men who love truth, who serve no cause, no purpose, and no propaganda for its own sake, but who are trying to do things to better mankind and in a practical way. ; Mr. Gerorce. They would really constitute a commission of in- quiry ? . Mr. VaentIne. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Starting out with no facts or ideas, but with open minds and with large enough minds to see things in their fullness, and they would consider the matter, make inquiry of the thing from 2628 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the beginning and report upon some plan for taking care of the Indian and taking care of his property rights? ; Mr. VaentiIne. Yes, sir; based on this fundamental consider- ation, it seems to me, that, as I have said previously, there are two ways of dealing with the Indians, either letting them absolutely alone, abolishing the Indian Bureau, and letting them seek their own place in our national life, according to their own unhampered efforts, or else trying to educate them, including men, women, and children, and not merely children, but trying to educate them to a point where they can start the race with something of a fair show. Now, if we are going to do the second thing, we ought to do it right, and it has not been done right yet, and it is not too late to begin. The reason I am convinced of that is because of the progress made in the last decade in social work in our cities and in our country dis- tricts, where it has been shown that it is not necessary to leave life to be fought out by the individual, but that big social efforts not only should be made, but can succeed. For instance, typhoid fever is almost unknown in certain parts of Germany because they have an adequate milk inspection, which no city in this country has. It is not fair, in other words, it seems to me, to leave that individual, whether he is a white man or an Indian, to be the prey of diseases which are easily preventable if the Government will wake up to its social re- sponsibilities as well as to its police-power responsibilities. Mr. Georer. Your idea is that the appointment of a high-class commission, composed of men of high character and firmness of character who would take the broad view, is probably the best way to consider the whole problem now as to the humanities toward the Indians, raising them up, and also the protection of their property interests? Mr. Vauentine. The protection and the equalization; for his moral upbuilding and for the protection of his property. Mr. Gores. That is right so far, is it not? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Gzorer. I want to ask if you have any concrete ideas for legislation now, or whether the other idea is the one that is predomi- nant in your mind. Mr. Vatentine. No; the thing that is predominant in my mind and the thing I intend to give myself to during the rest of my term of office is the working for some such reconstructive effort. Mr. Grorcz. Yes; but you have no clear idea in your mind as to how we can supplement the powers of the Indian Commissioner and what kind of a commission might be introduced in the present bureau for the protection of the property rights, or any large scheme of things, but you feel that as commissioner it is your duty now to do what you can to protect to-day and to-morrow, and until you leave there, these property interests just as the problems arise! Mr. Vatentine. That is my misfortune, that my time is taken up entirely with that. Mr. Gzorcr. This is only to make clear your position, your frame of mind. Mr. VALENTINE, And I do have a concrete idea that some such commission, to camp out on the job day and night, making a study of the Indian Bureau and of the Indian functions all over the coun- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2629 try, such as neither the present Indian Office nor, as I take 1t, even the committees of Congress, have the full time to go into, should be established at once. . / If a law could be introduced to-morrow which would provide for a commission, made up of men of the kind that I have named, I would get behind it with all my humble strength. Mr. Gzorce. Yes; but things remaining as they are, without any such commission at work, to substitute some new scheme, great scheme of things, for the protection of the Indians and their prop- erty, what is your view of the Commissionership of Indian Affairs? What is to be his chief business as an official to look after the In- dian welfare or practically to protect the Indians’ property ? Mr. Vatentine. To look after the Indian welfare. Mr. Grorce. That ought to be, you think, his chief function ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Georcg. Is it his chief function? Mr. Vatentine. No, sir. Mr. Grorce. What is his chief function ¢ Mr. Vatentine. Looking after the Indians’ property without re- gard to their moral upbuilding, owing to the lack of time and in- tellectual grasp. Mr. Gezorcx. And how does he succeed in that protection of their property ? Mr. Vatenting. Very poorly. Mr. Grorer. Well, is it the policy of wearing the commissioner out—that is, are the attacks so constant that they ultimately wear the Indian Commissioner out? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Georcr. Well, what hope is there for us, then ? Mr. Vatenrine. Simply to get a good new man as you tuck each succeeding man away in his grave; let him take up the fight. Mr. Georez. And what shall be the end of investigations like this, then ? Mr. Vatentine. There is no end. Mr. Grorcr. Then, what we do here is only to inquire into what has been done on White Earth Reservation, and expect most cer- tainly that some other committee, sitting as we now sit, shall some day look after some other White Earth scandal somewhere else? Mr. Vavtentine. That is what I am afraid of, sir; except this, that I believed, and I still believe, that the last year or two has de- veloped, more than ever before, the need of getting ahead and doing some constructive work. Mr. Grorcs. That is a public conscience on the subject ? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; and say things, for instance, what you found about the White Earth; it seems to me our big task, if I may be allowed to mention it here to you gentlemen, is not only to as- sist in every way in cleaning up what you found there, but in trying to take some positive constructive steps so that that same thing can not happen again on any other reservation; and so that, taking the wreck of things as they are at White Earth, you can get something good and say that this fall will have some dynamic effect on the economic and social life of the people as they are there to-day. Mr. Burcu. I would like to ask Mr. Valentine a question. 26380 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. Is it in connection with this same thing that you wish to ask him the question ? Mr. Burcu. I beg your pardon, it is in this same connection. The Cuarrman. If it is on this subject, go ahead. Mr. Burcu. Just a word, now, Mr. Valentine. When Mr. Leupp was appointed, I well remember, though I had never heard of him before, strange to say, an announcement, made apparently from the White House, that he was selected for the purpose of clearing up this Indian—these complex Indian conditions. He seems to have struggled four or five years, I have forgotten which. Mr. Vatentine. Four and one-half years. Mr. Burcu. Four and one-half years with that situation, and retired, I do not know how you pronounce it, but hors de combat, that would be the English of it. He seem to have been knocked out in health and in ability to proceed with it. Now, you started in and you have been there how long? Mr. Vatenrrine. I will have been commissioner three years this June. Mr. Burcu. Before that, do you know how long Commissioner Jones was in office? Mr. Vatentine. Seven years, I think. The average administrative life of the 24 or 25 Commissioners of Indian Affairs since the office was founded is 2 years and 10 months. Mr. Burcu. Well, for the three of you that would make about 15 years, in the rough, as I estimate it to be. Can you, upon your con- science, say that any great progress, more than this makeshift work of meeting as well as you can all the difficulties that are upon you all the time, has been made? Mr. Vatentine. I think in certain lines some great progress has been made, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now. in what line? Mr. Vatentine. For instance, the present civil-service system, which Commissioner Jones began and which Mr. Leupp continued, lacking as it is in the ability to build up the proper quality of men desired, is so infinitely preferable to the old spoils svstem that, still keeping in view the fact that some of the things we have been talk- ing about have been changed, has greatly improved Indian affairs. Then, the second thing which I believe has been accomplished—by the way, that Mr. Leupp threw himself personallv into this Augean state—was the establishment of the roots of the right kind of esprit de corps in the service, getting the eyes of the service itself turned toward the Indians. I should say that one of the basic troubles for us was that the people on the Indian reservations did not seem to real- ize that their first job was the Indian, and taking the service for what it is, what it was when Mr. Leupp took office, and what it is to-day. that is no mean achievement to have turned the eyes of the force of the Indian Office toward the Indian, instead of where it was, awav from the Indian. Mr. Burcu. I beg your pardon. Mr. Vatentine. Then I think that underneath all the ruck of things the individual policv of Indian manhood has been established. What I am complaining about—being some parts of a Socialist my- self—is that the social policy of Indian manhood has not been prop- * WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 26381 erly established. That is, that the Indians, individually, are work- ing to-day under handicaps which no individual in a country of the substantial intelligence and standards of citizenship of this should be asked or allowed to work under. Mr. Burcu. Well, now, while you have been making a progress in that direction, have you not been slipping back in others equally momentous? Mr. VauentineE. I do not think there are any more scandals to- day to the square inch than there were formerly. Mr. Burcu. I do not speak of scandals merely, but of conditions. For instance, we find this condition on White Earth. Did it exist 15 years ago—the condition of health, sanitation, and so forth, 15 years ago, when Commissioner Jones began? Mr. Vatentine. I should not want to answer that without having some emperical knowledge of the situation. Mr. Georcs. I suppose as to that Dr. Murphy would be able to throw some light. Mr. Burcu. I ask these questions because they occur to me; excuse me. That is all I will ask. The Cuarrman. Mr. Valentine, I did not quite get your thought in answer to Mr. George’s questions, as to whether the commission of which you spoke would be a mere inquiry commission or whether it would have governing powers. Mr. Vatentine. I think it should have some governing powers, sir. The Cuarrman. Would it be independent of or subordinate to the commissioner ? ; Mr. Vatentine. I should like to see it at the start largely inde- pendent of the commissioner. The Cuarrman. Responsible to the Secretary directly ? Mr. Vatentine. I think it should be responsible to the President directly. The Cuarrman. To the President? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And the method of its appointment ? Mr. Vatentine. The method of its appointment should be under— not indorsement, but the most thoroughgoing study of the capacity of the individuals. The Cuamrman. By the President? Mr. Vatentine. By the President. I have not thought out whether it should be with or without the consent of the Senate, but I should say offhand, without. I think it is well to define—I think it is well to place the responsibility absolutely where it can rest, abso- lutely on the appointive officer, so that there should be no division of responsibility. The Cuarrman. And when you refer to the complications arising from the management of the Indians’ property, and the development of the Indians’ character, did I properly infer from your statements that, in your judgment, these things ought to be entirely separated, and the property rights put under one management and the char- acter building under another? Mr. Vatentine. I do not think that would work out, sir, because they are so intimately related. The property, if properly used, would be used for the moral upbuilding of the Indians; for instance, 2632 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. the water system to irrigate their lands and to wash their bodies. I think on its inquiry side the commission should be absolutely inde- pendent of the bureau, so that there would be no possible fear or favor in regard to its empyrical investigations. When it comes to its governmental functions, I think then there should be some rela- tion between the commission and the commissioner. Possibly for those purposes the commissioner should be a part of the commission, or something of that sort—I have not thought that. out in detail. But I do not think you could handle the two propositions as abso-: lutely separate. The Cuarrman. Well, you dwelt at some length, and I think very properly, on the difficulties of administration which arise from the handling of such immense property values as the Indians have, and at the same time looking after their education, their training, their general upbuilding. Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And I drew from what you said the inference that in some way you thought those who are looking after the uplifting of the Indians should not be hampered with the care of their prop- erty ? ? Mr. Vatentine. That, I think, is true. The Cuairman. How would you separate the two things? Mr. Vatentine. By having either at the start an independent office, or later on a very clearly segregated branch, so that when the doctor and the school teacher and the industrial teacher and the farmer wanted to do certain things with regard to an Indian’s social and moral welfare, they could come to a source where the means for doing it flowed clear, as out of the system. That is, this commission would have dealt with the big problems and relations of the office, with the big oil interests, for example, and the big timber interests; so that the business questions would be segregated in this segregated branch of the Indian work as handled by the whole United States Government. At present—I do not know whether I make myself wholly clear or not—but there has to be that relation, so speak, of a pipe line between the two. But the minute that the health officer had to be in a position of looking around for funds or struggling with a condition of poverty which has been brought about by: bad business management, his efficiency in his own line is impaired; he ought to be relieved from those troubles. And speaking of concrete problems, Mr. Chairman, it occurs to me to ask you, just to show you concretely what would be the ab- surdity and the ridiculousness of my position if it were not so serious, if at the close of this hearing this morning, you could take time enough to come down to the Indian Office for just 5 minutes; I would like to show you and Mr. George what is on my desk to-day— problems that a man in private business, or a trustee for a big estate, would consider that he had to spend weeks of study on in order to determine them rightly, and yet in the rush of things, because there would be another bunch of things coming if this were not disposed, of, they will probably have to be off my desk before Sunday. The Carrman. And of course by that you mean disposed of with- out due consideration and proper care? Mr. Vatentine. By me; yes, sir. Mr. Gzorcr. Some kind of a decision has to be made? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2633 Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Good or bad? Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. The Cuamrman. Well, now, you also left me in doubt by your an- swers as to whether you considered the great property interests which the Indians have as advantageous or detrimental; a blessing or a curse. Mr. Vatentine. As they are handled to-day, detrimental, a curse. The Cuairman. Well, could they be so handled as to be made not only not a curse, but a blessing? Mr. Vatentine. I believe they could, sir; and that is where 1 differ with many profound students of our Indian policy. The Cuarrman. Just there a question of a historical character. When the present reservations which the Indians live on, or at least many of them, were set apart for them, am I right in assuming that it was not known how valuable those reservations were? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I think so. The Cuarrman. And that the great wealth that the Indians now have came to them by accident? Mr. VaLentTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. Or even a less substantial thing than accident? Mr. Vatentine. Precisely so. The Cuarrman. That they were crowed there because the places given to them were considered to be of little use? Mr. Vatentine. In many cases. For instance, when the Indian Territory idea developed of segregating the Indians from all over the country into the Indian Territory, no one had any idea at that time that there was any oil there, and, of course, in those days the value of timber was not understood. The Cuarmman. In those days the question was how to get rid of the timber we had rather than to conserve it? Mr. VALenTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. The fact, then, that the locations upon which the Indians were put were at first considered to be virtually valueless, to some extent, accounts for the lack of organization in the adminis- tration of their property since? Mr. Vatentine. Yes; I think that is a very good point to bring out, Mr. Chairman. These things have in a certain sense taken the governmental activities by surprise. The CuHarman. Yes. Mr. Va.entine. They have plunged big problems upon us that we were not equipped to deal with. The Cuarrman. I would not say, and I do not know that I would ask you to express an opinion as to whether the Indians would have been put on those reservations were it known at the time how valu- able they were; but without a knowledge of their value they were put there? Mr. Vatentine. That is the fact, sir. The Cuamman. And all at once, in some matters with reference to coal on many of the reservations with reference to oil on some of them, and on all of them with reference to valuable timber, on many of them timber of very great value; it became apparent only a short time ago and very suddenly ? 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2 GL ’ 2634 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. ; The Cuarrman. Has there been any intelligent premeditated ac- tion in the bureau, in taking into consideration those facts and mak- ing careful survey of the situation and adopting affirmative plans to meet that situation, or did the bureau have to go on just as best it could, meeting each new difficulty as it arose? ; Mr. Vatentine. .The latter, sir. We have been simply crushed under the pressure of problems. The Cuairman. Well, so far as you know, has there been any ad- -ministrative conference or discussion, taking these things into con- sideration, with a view to recommending a policy, with a view to dealing with that new and hitherto unsuspected condition ? Mr. Vauentine. There has not been time, in a sense. For in- stance, I have been in the Indian Office altogether seven years, and I have seen The Cuarrman (interposing). Is this Mr. Henderson? Pardon me, Mr. Valentine. Are you Mr. Henderson? Mr. Henperson. That is my name; yes, sir. The Cuairman. The committee wanted to ask you some questions before you go, Mr. Henderson. At what time would it be conven- ient for you to answer them? I suggest that, if convenient, you come up during the afternoon. T did not look for you so soon. Mr. Henverson. I have not received any notice to appear before the committee, and I was just caught by your secretary to ask me whether I had seen. The Cuarrman. The sergeant-at-arms? Mr. Henverson. Yes, sir; I would be very glad to come before the committee at its convenience. I do not know what line of inquiry the committee desires to make of me; but I would like, of course, to give all the information I can to the committee, and if I knew what the purpose of my being called as a witness was I would perhaps be able to get the data together. The Cuairman. I do not know that I could outline that. It is quite general in its nature, and I suppose more particularly with reference to the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Henverson. Well, yes; I will be very glad to come this after- noon, and if there is anything special the committee desires to ask me about that would need reference to my data I will be glad to get it. The Cuairman. Would 8 o’clock suit you? Mr. Henpverson. I will be here at 3 o’clock if you so desire. The CHairman. Would that. meet your convenience? Mr. Henverson. I will be here at 3 o’clock, Mr. Chairman. The Cuatrman. Thank you. Speaking again historically, Mr. Valentine, about how long ago was it that the great wealth of the various reservations, such as those in the Indian Territory and many of those reservations with valuable timber on them, became notorious, well-known to the pub- lic and to the bureau ? _Mr. Vatentine. Well, some of the coal lands in the Indian Ter- ritory, I should say, at least over 10 years, possibly over 15 years ago. As to oil, when I was in Oklahoma, about five years ago, I think, I visited one pool that had just been discovered—the famous Gleen pool—that has been of more recent discovery; and I do not WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2635 think the people of the country were awakened to the importance of timber and the vast resources of water power on the Indian reser- vations until Mr. Pinchot’s campaign for conservation. The Cuairman. From 7 to 10 years ago? Mr. Varentine. Well, the first impetus to the campaign, I think, was given in 1907. The Crarrman. That would be only five years ago. Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. But the matter was receiving some attention be- fore that? * Mr. Vatentine. Yes; but it had not got under its present big momentum until that time. The Cuarrman. Quite so. Mr. VatenrinE. You remember that the first meeting of the gov- ernors was in 1907 or 1908, with reference to the conservation con- gress here? The Cuarrman. What was called the press bureau ? Mr. VaLentTINeE. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. As organized it really did a great deal of good in riveting public attention on a very important matter? Mr. VALENTINE. Yes, sir. The CHairman. Well, were the vast oil and gas discoveries made before that time on Indian lands? Mr. Vatentine. I think some of them had been made in Oklahoma and in the Osage country; the Foster lease that we were speaking about yesterday was up for renewal. The Cuatrman. That expired in 1905? Mr. Vatentins. That was up for renewal at that time, you see, so that it had been in existence 10 years before that—about 10 years before that—if I recall correctly. The CHarrman. Hardly that. The matter of asphalt on Indian reservations is of still more recent discovery ? Mr. Vatentine. It is. For instance, on the Shoshone Reserva- tion in Wyoming; but I think it probably dated about with the coal m Oklahoma. The Cuamrman. And now with reference to other minerals that have been found to exist on reservations? Mr. Vatentine. Like copper and gold, the more precious metals? The CHatrman. Yes, sir. : Mr. Vatentine. There has not been so much of that on Indian reservations. The Cuarrman. And how about iron on the Minnesota reserva- tions? ; Mr. Varentine. I have not heard anything about iron there until within the last year or so. I have heard rumors of iron in that country. ; Mr. Grorce. May I ask about the asphalt? What is the form that the asphalt is found in? : Mr. Vatentrne. Why, I have never seen an asphalt mine myself, except at a distance when I was riding horseback along a lane. I think it is mined in some cases similarly to what they call stripping tor coal. Mr. Georcr. From the surface? Does it ooze up? 2636 WHILE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatentine. I think it oozes up. I could not tell you any- thing of value about. it. The Cuarrman. Have you any knowledge with reference to sup- posed Indian rights in so-called swamp lands in Minnesota? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. On which there is said to be rich iron ore?, Mr. Vatentine. No; I do not know about that. JI have heard this rumor in that connection. I am familiar with the swamp-land controversy. The Cuarrman. Only a rumor? I may ask you about that fur- ther, but at present I want to pursue the other source. Now, would it be safe to say, speaking generally, that it is within the last 15 or 20 years that the great mineral and other hidden wealth on Indian reservations throughout the country has been discovered ? Mr. Vatentine. I should say that was broadly correct, sir. The Cuartrman. That there was but little of it known to. the public, or to the bureau, more than 20 years ago? Mr. Vaentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. You might except timber from that. , The Cuarrman. But the value of the timber was not appre- ciated. Mr. Vatentine. It was not brought to the forefront of our ad- ministrative consciousness. The CuHarrman. I speak of the discovery either of the thing itself; that is, or of its great value. Mr. VaLentine. You see, when the Dawes allotment act, passed in 1887, started allotments, and when, therefore, allotments formed the foundation of the opening of the reservation policy, these methods came to the front in connection with the opening of reser- vations. h The Cuarrman. It was very well known in 1865, when the treaty—I think that is the year in which the treaty was made by which the White Earth Indians got possession of their present res- ervation—is that right, Judge Burch? Mr. Burcu. Something like that. The Cuairman. 1865 is the date of the treaty. Well, at that time, it was pretty well known that there was a good deal of pine timber on that reservation, but that reservation was probably assigned to them then simply because there was timber on it, and they were timber Indians, and there were lakes on it, and they were fishing Indians. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. ct Cuarrman. Rather than because the pine had commercial value? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Besides, in the country around there there was plenty of pine timber, was there not? Mr. Burcu. Not so very much. . The Cuatrman. Well, at that time the land had no special value as to pine? Mr. Vatentine. Nothing like it has to-day; no, sir. The Caarrman. And it could not be said with truth that they got the land because of the value of the timber on it? . WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2637 Mr. Vatentine. I should say not. The Cuatrman. It is true, is it not, that the Chippewas were a timber, rather than a prairie, band of Indians? Mr. Vatentine. Well, in the sense that they live in this generally timbered country. o CHARAN, And that is really one of the drawbacks to them to-day ¢ Mr. VaLentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Well, now, assuming that 20 years ago this great additional value in the estate of the Indians was manifest, is it not singular that no steps were taken by the Government to meet, by new arrangements, the management of this newly discovered estate? Mr. Vatentine. I do not know, Mr. Chairman, as one could fairly call it singular when one sees the centuries that it takes for new moral and economic ideas to take root and grow. Twenty years is a pretty short time for a thing of that sort to reach the conscience, either of Congress or of an administration. The Cuatrrman. Well, looking on it as a matter of guardian and ward, or trustee and cestuy que trust, if some one were appointed guardian for a child who at the time of the appointment had a small estate, a few thousand dollars only, and after the lapse of some years, a relative of the child died leaving the child an estate of millions of dollars, what would you think of the law that would permit the guardian to go on managing the child’s additional estate, practically ee ane same bond and practically under the same conditions as efore ? Mr. Vatentine. It would be inexcusably lax. The Cuarrman. Criminally so. Mr. Vatentrxe. Yes, sir; but I can not leave out of account this: Trace the history for some time of the struggle for pure food. Certain perfectly obvious scientific facts were involved. Take the question of milk inspection. We are just as lax to-day in providing proper safeguards. It seems to me—what I wanted to point out is that this Indian business—I am not saying that it ought not to have been done along the lines that you suggest, but I do not want to be unfair in relation to all other historical movements in pointing out the slowness with which any moral reform or any intellectual reform progresses. You take the astounding, undoubtable figures as to preventable diseases in the United States to-day—it seems to me that we are in that matter criminally negligent. The Cuairman. Well, is there not this difference between the cases you cite and the one I referred to, that with the Indian and his property the question was entirely concrete, because there were in- terests, personal and corporate—somebody has referred to them during the taking of the testimony here as grafters—who were try- ing to get the physical property away from the lawful owner of it, whereas in those matters of health and what might be called police power the question was less concrete and almost abstract. Mr. Vatentrxe. Well, but, Mr. Chairman, take, for instance, the manufacture of matches in this country to-day—these things that produce what we call phossy jaw. The Cuatrman. Yes. 2638 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Vatenxtine. Would it not seem to you or to me, if we were suddenly to arrive on this earth from Mars that that proposition would only have to be stated for Congress to make it a peniten- tiary offense to make matches in that way? The Cuarrman. I think so. Mr. Vatentine. Every other country in the world—Sweden and all other countries—have stringent laws which are enforced on that point, yet here we are permitting this fearful evil to exist in our midst, and Congress knows all about it, and the people know all about it, and yet nothing is done. ; ; ; The Cuatrman. What you say is true, still I think there is the difference which I pointed out, because in matters of business and matters affecting property and property rights the American people are not very slow to act, because there is the concrete condition pre- senting itself to them. But on those other lines, involving the exer- cise of police power, involving the care of the individual by the Gov- ernment, we have been very slow to act, because we have gone up to recently on the theory of everybody looking out for himself. Mr. Vatentine. Yes. The Cyarrman. Until within your recollection and mine the pop- ulation through much of the country was quite sparse, and the neces- sity for these laws was not apparent. We lived independently of each other; but within that time the population has increased and the cities have become, I think, according to the present census, more than half the population of the country, have they not? Mr. Vatentine. I think so, sir; it is a very high percentage. The Cuatrman. This change has made necessary a stricter polic- ing, and things that formerly were permitted to go under what the French would call the lassez faire plan—is that what you call it?— the let-alone policy. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Now, we have grown to such an extent that we find it absolutely necessary to abandon the let-alone policy and adopt anew one. Our Pittsburgh surveys, the work of eminent individual citizens like Jane Addams, in my own State, and others whom you know of elsewhere, have made it perfectly clear to the public that the let-alone policy will not do; that those who occupy the lowest stratum of society will be crushed utterly under the application of that policy, and we are now attempting to enforce pure-food laws, to take steps to preserve the public health, and incidentally here and there public morals, and, in short, we are widening and strengthening the enforcement of police regulations. But in spite of all that I revert back to the other question, and I express surprise that some one whose duty it was to administer the Indian business did not long ago call attention to the necessity for new arrangements to conserve. the newly discovered property of great value which belonged to the Indians; and it is seems to me it was—I won’t say criminal careless- ness—but it was gross carelessness not to call the attention of Con- gress in the most emphatic way to the necessity of widening out the administration of Indian affairs in a way to correspond with the enormous increase in the property of the Indians. Mr. Varentrne. I think that has been called to the attention of Congress, Mr. Chairman. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2639 The Cuairmuan. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. I think it has been called to the attention of the House Committee on Indian Affairs and the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs for many years. For instance, there has been a great deal of legislation, more or less piecemeal, to be sure, but still along that line. The Cuarrman. But that legislation has embarrassed, rather than relieved the situation in many cases. Mr. Vatentine. In some cases, because of its piecemeal character. Mr. Georcr. And there is not any large, systematic, general prin- ciple applied to all times and all places? Mr. Vatentine. Well, for instance, our timber law which was passed on June 25, 1910, I believe, for the first time permitted op- erations on Indian reservations which would enable us, on the proper conservation principles, to conserve the timber before that timber had gone to waste by reason of overmaturity, and the sub- jection to fire which comes from that. The difficulty, Mr. Chair- man, of getting people to take in the seriousness of this thing is shown by the fact that—I know personally of several very powerful - representations that have been made to committees; but one of the . reasons that I advocate this commission is because it seems to me that what is everybody’s business is nobody’s business, and until you put up, not one poor lone Indian Commissioner, but a body of men whom everybody can take a shot at, you won’t focus this problem as it should be focused. The Cuarrman. We have run far beyond our adjourning time without my noticing it, so that your statements have clearly been very interesting. Would you think over it during the lunch hour, and tell us when we reconvene your views as to the scope and juris- diction which such a commission ought to have. For instance, I suppose it or some other body ought to codify, to reduce to intelligent and workable form, the 1,400 and odd various acts that now huve application in the administration of the bureau affairs? Mr. Vatentine. That would be one of its very first jobs, sir. The Cuarrman. And with reference to the management of these properties, the extent to which the head of the Indian Bureau should have control there, in a supervisory way only, for he could not go into details, and what sort of organization under him would have more active and complete control of these vast properties, and how, and the relations or interrelations between the head of the bureau and various other bodies; in short, if you could give us an idea of the division of labor. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Which you think would help to conserve the prop- erty of the Indians and at the same time enable the bureau to give at least as much attention to the upbuilding of their characters, their individual strength and responsibility, and their duties as citizens as to the management of their property. p Mr. Vacentine. It is a very big order, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. They are big problems, and if they were new to you I would not think of asking you for an opinion; but I know you have thought on them. Mr. Varentine. I have thought a good deal on them. 2640 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Grorcr. And make this clear also: Jn your testimony at the beginning I thought I brought out the fact that your idea of a com- mission was, first, to consider all the field, the number of Indians, their condition, and the nature of their estate, and that that commis- sion was to report a plan of government which afterwards would be incorporated in our system of government. If that was not your idea, then please make that distinction and show wherein the com- mission that you are now speaking of would be distinct from that commission, or whether or not you conceived that idea as an original plan; whether or not you have that in your mind anywhere. Mr. Vatentine. I see. Thereupon, at 12.45 p. m., the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock p. m. AFTER RECESS. (The committee met at 2.45 p. m.) The Cuatrman. I will ask the reporter to read the suggestions which I made to the commissioner just before adjournment as to a statement of his views regarding a commission. (Stenographer reads questions.) The Crairman. I think that gives Mr. Valentine the thought. Mr. Valentine, are you prepared now to shed any light on the sub- ject mentioned before recess? Mr. Vatentine. I have had only a very short time to think it over, Mr. Chairman. I might possibly mention .one or two points which would be useful in the way of working hypotheses in connection with such a plan, or, if you prefer, I will give the matter some further study in detail and at some future time make some suggestions along this line. I do not want to put before you mere half-baked, inchoate ideas. The Cuarrman. How soon do you think you could do the latter— within a day or two? Mr. Vatentine. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Cuatrman. Well, I think it would be better to get at it that way. I wish, when doing it, if you put it in the form of a formal statement, you would think also in that connection about the work of local government on the reservations—how and to what extent the Indians on the reservations could be interested and trained in the work of self-government, as we understand it, and whether there is not some better plan for getting the consensus of Indian opinion on a reservation than the so-called councils which they have been holding and which seem to me not to be representative in any true sense of that word—in short, whether the idea or principle of home rule could not have a wider application on Indian reservations. Another phase of the question which has been submitted to you— and perhaps you have told us all you care to say on the subject—is the distinction between the real Indian and the near Indian; in other words, between the full-blood Indian or the Indian who has more than half Indian blood and the so-called Indian who has very little Indian blood in him and who is practically a Caucasian; and whether there is not some way to differentiate between them and to segregate them—as you have used that term a number of times— WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2641 so that the real Indian would not be subjected too much to the control of the near Indian. Is there any further question for Mr. Valentine at this time? Mr. Burcu. Not so far as I am concerned. Mr. Vatentine. May I make one suggestion, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Vatentine. That is, provided the committee is through with me for the time being. I did not know whether I was temporarily discharged or not. It is simply this: That I have endeavored to put before the committee my own views in response to your questions. I would appreciate it very much, if the committee had time at any time during its hearings, if they would seek the views of others in the Indian Office who have also been doing some good, honest think- ing along these lines; I would appreciate it very much if the views of the two assistant commissioners could be heard; also the views of Mr. Meritt, the law officer of the bureau, who has done some very minute thinking and has some strong ideas of his own on the sub- ject; and the views of the four chiefs of division of the office and any chiefs of section or clerks whom you might care to hear in fol- lowing out any particu/ar line of thought. I have been trying to run the Indian Office on democratic principles, making it a place where we all thought, and we are all trying to devise new ways and means; and I am very certain that the committee would find ideas of very great value from the men who are very close to certain branches of the work in connection with those branches. I merely make that suggestion because I believe it would help materially, not only in the investigation of the Indian Office but in the line of any constructive work which I hope and believe will grow out of this kind of investigation. The Cuarrman. You refer, of course, to Mr. Hauke and Mr. Abbott? Mr. Vatentine. Mr. Abbott, Mr. Hauke, Mr. Meritt, Mr. Francis, Mr. Dimick, Mr. Lane, and any of the chiefs of section or any clerk in the Indian Office. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Chairman, in that event I trust that either that will be taken up in connection with some other hearing than the White Earth matter or else that I may consider myself absolved from going into that part of the inquiry in attendance upon the committee, as I am pretty loudly called for elsewhere in this city and I would like to get away. If it can be taken up just as sug- gested by the commissioner in connection with some other hearings that may come or are liable to come, I should like that very much better. And I simply want to feel excused from any prolongation of this White Earth investigation, except that of the purely practi- cal part dealing with White Earth. I would like to ask the witness just one question now. The Cuairman. You may ask him. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Valentine, it is often charged—and respecting that I desire whatever you may know or have heard or experienced— that the tendency of your bureau and all these bureaus that have to do with substantial interests is to grasp for what is termed “ juris- diction”; to hold tight to whatever is within their charge already and reach. out for more jurisdiction—I do not mean money, neces- 2642 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. sarily, now, but business—to take on business, all that they can get connected with their bureaucratic work. I desire to ask you if you have run up against that tendency in your own Indian Bureau? Mr. Vatenrine. That tendency exists there as it does in many other bureaus; but I have done everything I could to cut it out where I felt that any particular function of the bureau could be better performed or as well performed by some other office. I have realized that we had more than enough work on our hands, and have tried to make the change. Mr. Burcu. I have observed that, and that is why I asked the question. Mr. Vatentine. In other words, so far as I could influence the bureau we had absolutely no pride of trying to run the universe. Mr. Burcu. I ask this in connection with a part of the record. There is in the record in this case a letter shown to the satisfaction of the committee to have been written by Representative Steenerson to a constituent of his, one Beyam by name, I think, J. M. Beyam, of Winona, Minn., in which he asserted that it would be impossible to pass the matter which was afterwards embraced in the Clapp rider of 1896, because of the indisposition of the Department of the Inte- rior, and I think also the Indian Bureau was mentioned, to let go any of the authority which they had already. I ask you if you allow that kind of feeling to take form in reports to Congress, or to take action in opposing measures, since you have been there ?s Mr. Vatentine. I do not, sir. Mr. Burcu. And you assert that the contrary is true so far as you are concerned, provided you think that the administration can be better performed by some other bureau or department of the Gov- ernment? Mr. Vatenting. Absolutely, sir. Any attempt to hold on to power merely for the sake of power would be contrary to our duty to the Indians, : Mr. Burcu. I will ask you if you have had experience since you have been there of any attempts of other bureaus to obtain juris- diction of matters which you were handling—that is, the heads of the bureaus? : Mr. Vatentine. No; I do not know that I could say that I know of any particular attempts of that kind, because some of the discus- sions that have come up between bureaus, such as discussions be- tween the Forest Service and the Indian Service or between the Reclamation Service and the Indian Service, I have frequently ini- tiated myself for the purpose of getting the matter started; so that it would be very unfair for me to charge them with trying to acquire parts of our work. Mr. Burcu. That is what I wanted to know. I wanted to under- stand what the feeling was down there in connection with this very matter about which you have been testifying. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Vatentine. May I offer this statement, Mr. Chairman, which 1 show you, to be put in the record? The Cuarrman. There is some of it, Mr. Valentine, that I think would be very proper for the record. There is a good deal more of it that is so personal, in the way of personal commendation, that ] would rather wait and let my colleague go over it. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2643 Mr. Vatentine. May I leave it with you, sir? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Vaentine. I realize that there is some of it that is personal. At the same time I think it shows some of our fundamental diffi- culties pretty clearly. The Cuarrman. With reference to the swamp-land question which was mentioned casually before recess, I have before me a minute of some of the salient features of the relations between the Govern- ment and the EPs Indians which I want to submit to you as to the accuracy of it. The original treaty between the Government and the Chippewas appears in the tenth volume of the Statutes at Large, page 1165, and is of the date February 22, 1855. In that treaty, among other things, it is provided that they should have for their exclusive use all the land within the boundaries of the Leech Lake, Chippewa, Winnebagoshish, White Oak Point, and Cass Lake Reservations. Now, I call your attention particularly to the term or phrase “all the land,” because later on a controversy arose as to whether that included the swamp land; and, if I mistake not, as a matter of fact, the swamp land included within it, or some of that land, has been claimed by the State of Minnesota, and the department has allowed the claim. How is that? Mr. Vatentin. I am informed, Mr. Chairman, that the depart- ment has allowed the claim in respect to certain lands on White Earth in accordance with an agreement between the General Land Office and representatives of the State and the Secretary of the Interior. The Cuarrman. In the twelfth volume of the Statutes at Large there is an act, passed in 1860, in which the United States granted to the State of Minnesota all the swamp lands lying within its bor- ders, except any lands which the Government may have reserved, sold, or disposed of prior to the confirmation of the title made under the authority of the act. Now, can you tell me whether the swamp lands included under the treaty of 1855 were held under the act of 1860 to have been disposed of prior to the confirmation of title under the act of 1860? Mr. Vatentrne. I could not, sir, without looking up the question. The Cuarrman. Can Mr. Meritt? Mr. Merirr. I can give you the references to the court decisions and the decisions of the department, but it would be necessary for me to look up the matter again to refresh my mind on the different subjects. r think the references are: In connection with the Minnesota swamp-land claims I refer you to the decision of the Supreme Court in Wright v. Roseberry, 121 United States, 488; Minnesota v. Hitch- cock, 185 United States, 373; 19 Land Decisions, page 518; 22 Land Decisions, page 388; 27 Land Decisions, page 418; 25 Opinion At- torney General, page 626; and Senate Report 270, Sixty-first Con- gress, second session. Those will give you the references to the decisions of the Supreme Court and the decisions of the Attorney General and of the Secretary of the Interior on the swamp-land ques- tion in Minnesota, they cover a very big question, which has been in litigation a number of years. As I understand it on certain of those reservations the Indians have a possessory right to the swamp and 2644 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. school lands; as long as those lands are occupied by the Indians they are entitled to possession; but on certain reservations in both Minnesota and Wisconsin the reversionary interest in the lands re- mains in the State. There is, however, a serious legal complication ‘there, and I should like to go over the cases very carefully before giving you an opinion on the subject. — The Cuarrman. Well, in a legislative way the matter came up next in the treaty of 1865, of date, I think, March 20, and that was more or less modified by a treaty made on Arpil 8, 1867, when the Chippewa Indians agreed to relinquish much, if not all, of the land that I recited above, in exchange for the White Earth and Winne- bagoshish, Red Lake, and perhaps some other reservations. That is found in 13 Stat. L., 693, and 16 Stat. L., 719. Now, those treaty arrangements were not changed or modified in any way, were they, from the dates I have mentioned until the passage of the Nelson Act in 1889? . Mr. Merrrr. I think not. . The Cuatrman. And that act, as we have heard a great many times, provided for the classification of the land into agricultural land and timberland, among other things? Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. The pine or timber lands under the Nelson Act when cleared were, I believe, held to be open for homesteading, or what was the law of the case governing that land then? Mr. Merirr. They were open to homesteading. The Cuartrman. Of course, where allotted that would not be true? Mr. Mertrr. No, sir. The CuHatrman. Have you any knowledge whether any of the land claimed by the Indians as swamp land under any of those treaties has iron ore upon it? Mr. Merirr. The Indian Office has come into possession of infor- mation in the last few years that there is iron ore in that part of the country, but we have no definite information at this time that there is iron ore on Indian land. The Cuairman. Well, not so much on what is known as Indian allotted land as on swamp land, which the Indians claim under som of those treaties or treaty regulations? Mr. Merrrr. I have no information on that subject. Mr. Vatentine. Have we ever asked the Geological Survey, Mr. Meritt, to make any study of that field? Mr. Mertrr. I do not recall that we have. The Cuairman. I do not suppose you know anything about grants of land made by the State of Minnesota to railroads up in that country, do you? : Mr. Menrirv. I know that Minnesota has made ‘certain land grants, and that is one reason why the officials of Minnesota and Wisconsin are so anxious to clear up this controversy regarding the title to the swamp lands and school lands. The Cuatrman. One of those grants was made by the State to a railroad which ran through the Mesaba Range, I think; through the iron-ore country. Have you any knowledge about that? Mr. Mrrirr. No, sir; I have no information on that subject. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2645 The Cuamman. Well, do you know whether the claim of the rail- roads to land given them by the State in some way involves the land claimed by the Indians under those treaties as swamp land? Mr. Merrrr. I have no present. knowledge on that subject. The Cuarrman. Of even the existence of such a situation ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. There is legislation pending in Congress now, Mr. Chairman, to appoint a committee, one member of the com- mittee to represent the Secretary of the Interior, one to represent the State, and one to represent the Indians, to give careful consideration to this entire swamp and school land question, and to submit a report to the Secretary of the Interior, and the Secretary of the Interior to submit report and recommendations to Congress, in order to clear up the difficulty. The Cuatrman. I have been told—of course, I do not vouch for the correctness of the information—that the Legislature of the State of Minnesota granted to certain railroads certain swamp lands; that subsequently a law was passed or an order made providing that the railroads which received such lands should select the lands within a limited time; that that time has long since expired, but one of the railroads, the Duluth & Winnipeg, I think—it may have a different name now, but it had that name at one time—was the grantee of some of those swamp lands, but never made any selection, and I doubt if it has yet made such selection, and that it still claims the right to select; and it has also been stated to me that some of the swamp lands involved, which it is now claimed are rich in mineral— in iron ore, in fact; but if this land is the land of the State of Minne- sota, you would have no knowledge about it; there would be no reason why you should know about it? Mr. Merirr. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Well, did I understand you to say that the claim of the Federal Government to it had been adjudicated; and that it had passed out of the Federal Government and into the State of Minnesota ? Mr. Meritr. No, sir. The claim to the swamp and school lands in Wisconsin and Minnesota is still rather indefinite. The Supreme Court in Wisconsin 7. Hitchcock, and also Minnesota v. Hitchcock, has held that the Indians have a possessory right to the land, but that the naked fee is vested in the State. The Wisconsin swamp-land decision is found in Wisconsin v. Hitchcock, 201 United States Re- ports, page 202. In that connection, I might also refer to Beecher v. Wetherby, 95 United States Reports, page 165. That refers to swamp lands in Wisconsin. The Cuarmman. The Government had for a long time on several occasions recognized the claim of the Indians to certain of these swamp lands, had it not? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Cuairwan. Have you in your citations the case of Pendgra v. Munz? Mr. Merirr. No; I have not. The Cuarrman. An Oregon case reported in 25 Federal Reporter, page 830? Mr. Meritt. I have read the case, but I have.not a reference to it here. 2646 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuatrman. Yes. Does it not hold, in substance, that the claim of the Indians in a case practically, if not actually, parallel to the Minnesota case of the Chippewas Mr. Merrrr. If I remember correctly, the decision is very favorable to the Indians. It has been some time since I read that decision, and I don’t remember much of it; but it is a very favorable decision to the Indians. : ; The Cuarrman. Yes; and it has never been specifically overruled, has it? Mr. Menirr. Not that I know of. But of course the department is governed in the Minnesota case by the decision of the Supreme Court in Minnesota v. Hitchcock. The Cuatrman. Which you have already cited. Mr. Meritt. 185 United States, 373. The Cuarrman. I guess, Mr. Valentine, that is all for the present. Will you be able by to-morrow, do you think, to give us the answer; or, rather, your suggestions, as to the problems that we submitted to you! “ Mr. Vatentine. I think I could, sir; to-morrow afternoon. The Cuarrman. If you could; and at that time there are some questions that. were submitted to me by Mr. Moorhead with the sug- gestion that I ask them of you, which I would like to submit to you then. Mr. Vatentine. Yes, sir; I should be very glad to answer them. The Cuairm4n. We thank you for your faithful attendance upon the committee. TESTIMONY OF A. C. BAKER, OF DAKOTA, IOWA. (A. C. Baxer, being duly sworn, testified as follows:) The Cuatrman. State your name. Mr. Baxer. A. C. Baker. -The Cuatrman. Where do you live? Mr. Baxer. Dakota, Iowa. The Cuairman. How long have you lived there? Mr. Baxerr. I have lived in the county for 54 years; in the town 15. The Cuarirman. You are interested in White Earth Indian Reser- vation, Minn. ? Mr. Baxer. I am. The Cuairman. When the committee was out in Minnesota dur- ing January and February you were not at home? Mr. Baxsr. I was in Florida? The Cuatrman. And you are now on your way back home from Florida? Mr. Baxer. I am on my way to Maine from Florida. The Cuarrman. Well, you are on your way home, finally? Mr. Baxer. I am on my way there, finally, after going to Maine; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And you desire to make a statement concerning the White Earth matter before this committee? Mr. Baxer. Exactly. The Cuamrman. What is your business, Mr. Baker? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2647 Mr. Baxer. Well, I was a farmer for 39 years; I might be called a farmer still, though I am interested in a number of lines. The Cuamman. What are they? Mr. Baxer. I am a banker; and I am president of a barrel factory ; I am interested in telephone lines, and handle quite a considerable amount of land. The Cuairman. Are you actually farming any land now? : Mr. Baxer. Yes; I have 14 acres where I live now. It is just a small farm in the town. The Cuarrman. Are you the owner of considerable land now? Mr. Baxer. I have considerable land; yes, sir. The CHarrman. Where is it located ? Mr. Baxer. Well, I have lands in Colorado; I have land in Texas; T have land in Iowa; I have land in Oregon; land in Florida; land in Minnesota The Cuairman. Is all of that productive to you, or is it merely speculative ? Mr. Baxer. No; there is very little of it that is productive. The Cuatrman. Is your Minnesota land on the White Earth Res- ervation ? / Mr. Baxer. A portion of it; yes, sir. The Caarrman. How much of it? Mr. Baxer. I have purchased about 18,000 acres, between 17,000 and 18,000 acres; how much I have now [I could not just say, as 1 have contracted ‘considerable of that amount. I do not keep track of the land that I have at the present time. The Cuairman. By “contracting” it, you mean you have made’ contracts of sale? Mr. Baxer. Contracts of sale, to give title when the lands—when the perfect title can be given. The Caamman. The White Earth land which you bought, you bought with a view to selling, of course? Mr. Baxer. Some with a view to selling, and some with a view to improving. The Cuarrman. Well, you never had any thought of going to live there? Mr. Baxer. No; not as a settler. The Carman. And if you kept some of it and improved it it would doubtless be with a view to selling it some time? Mr. Baxer. I have followed the policy of improving land and putting settlers on it. The Cuamrman. Have you already parted with such title as you had to any of the White Earth land? Mr. Baker. Yes; I have to some. The Cuarrman. You have made deals, in other words? Mr. Baxer. Yes; to some. The Cuarmman. About how much? Mr. Baxer. That would be very difficult for me to tell. The CuarrMan. Can’t you approximate it? Mr. Baxer. I could not. The Cxuarman. Is it several hundred acres? Mr. Baxer. Yes; a couple of hundred acres. The Cuarrman. Is there any of that land in litigation? 2648 ‘ WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Baxer. I think there are a number of pieces in litigation, and perhaps of that that I have parted with; perhaps 5 or 6 pieces; per- haps I might say 8 or 9; that is, from 5 to 10 pieces. ; The Cuairman. By “piece” I suppose you mean 80-acre pieces? Mr. Baxer. Yes, sir; 80-acre tracts. The Cuairman. That is an allotment? Mr. Baxer. That is an allotment; yes, sir. The Cuatrman. How much of it did you buy from the allottees— the Indians? Mr. Baxer. I presume about one-half. I have never kept track. I presume about one-half was bought from the Indians. The Cuairman. Did you make the purchase in person or was it done for you by agents? Mr. Baxer. Some of it personally and some by agents. I was present when a large amount of it was purchased. ; The Cuarrman. Can you tell us about what the purchase price was per acre? Mr. Baxer. I have bought land at from $2.50 per acre and I have bought it for $35 per acre. The Cuarrman. Did you confine your purchases to any one class of land? Mr. Baxer. I tried to get as good a class as possible. . The Cuarrman. I mean, was it all agricultural land? Mr. Baxer. All agricultural land; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Did you buy any timberland? Mr. Baxer. We bought in the brush, but not for the timber. The Cuairman. You bought none of it for the timber ? Mr. Baxer. No, sir; none for the timber. The Cuatrman. Can you give us some idea of what portion of the reservation it is on? Mr. Baxer. Well, it is scattered over the western portion and largely surrounding the town of Ogema; more so there than at any other point, as I was president of the State Bank of Ogema. The Cuatrman. That is prairie land? Mr. Baxer. That is prairie land, and there is not a tree west of the township of Ogema—in the vicinity. The Cuatrman. How recently did you buy any land? Mr. Baxzr. I have bought some this winter. I have been buying since the summer after the Clapp amendment went into force; some time in July of that year JT bought my first lands there. The Cuarrman. Since the question of the clouded titles arose there i its acute form, have you bought much land? Mr. Baxer. Well, very cautiously. I have bought some, but very eautiously. ‘ 7 The Cuarrman. What was your habit when you bought land there, with reference to an investigation of the title? Did you em- ploy a lawyer to examine the condition of the title or not? ' Mr. Baxer. Well, if I may say it, I had a young lawyer in the office. I also had an Indian lawyer, and I have handled titles all my life. I commenced in the land business when I was 14 years old, at farming, and I considered myself fair on titles; so that I considered that I was getting a good title, though I have had other lawyers examine titles for me, quite a good many, during the time T have been purchasing lands. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2649 The CHarrman. Well, of course, you knew that in buying the Indian allotments. if you got the allotment of a full-blood Indian, or a minor mixed blood, you did not get any title at all? Mr. Baxer. I did. The Cuairman. And knowing that, you knew that if the question of the quantum of blood was raised it affected the titl—that you took your chances on it? Mr. Barer. Exactly; I did. The Cuatrman. And you could not very well know with certainty whether an Indian, or whether a man who had considerable Indian blood in him, was a full blood or a mixed blood? Mr. Baxer. We used every means of caution in trying to learn whether they were mixed or full blood; everything that we could, everything within our power. The CHarrman. Yes; just as a man who is betting uses every means within his power to get on the right side of the bet? Mr. Baxer. Not along that line; oh, no; not along that line. The Cuarrman. Well, you knew that, however careful you might be, or however much care you might exercise, yet, as a matter of fact, if you bought from a full-blooded Indain, although he told you god proved to you he was a mixed-blood, you would get no title? Mr. Baxer. Why, I understood that to be a fact; yes; that was the reason for our caution. The Cuarrman. And you know, of course, that in case it turned out that way no amount of care or prudence on your part would strengthen your title? Mr. Baker. I certainly did. The Cuatrman. That it depended upon the fact, and not upon your care to ascertain the fact? Mr. Baxer. It did. We presumed that our care, however, would keep us from running against snags. The Cuarrman. That it would aid greatly ? Mr. Baxer. Aid greatly; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. What price did you pay for the last land you bought up there? Mr. Baxrr. The last land J bought I paid $20 for. It was bought since I went to Florida. The Cuarrman. It was improved ? Mr. Baxer. It had been improved; but it has gone back to mus-. tard, etc., as most of the land there has. | The Cuatrman. Was there a house on it? Mr. Baxer. No, sir. The Cuatrman. Was there a fence? Mr. Baxer. I think not. I have not seen this piece of land; it was up in the range. The Cuarrman. How near the village of Ogema? Mr. Baxer. It was about 7 miles from Wabana. The Cuairman. And Wabana is the next town north of Ogema ? Mr. Baxer. Yes; in the northeast corner of the township. The Cuarrman. You bought from an Indian? Mr. Baxer. I do not know that; I think it was. This was bought since I have been in Florida. 72 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2 2650 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuamman. In that class of cases it has been the custom there to take affidavtis from at least two persons as to the fact that the grantor was a mixed blood? Mr. Baxer. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And it had also been the custom there, it appears, to have deeds printed, with printed blanks on them for making those affidavits ? Mr. Baxer. Oni some of our deeds, yes, it was the usual custom. In some of our deeds the deeds have ajdavits written outside of the original deed. ; The Cuarrman. But there were and there are printed forms, you say, up there having the blank affidavit forms in them? Mr. Baxer. Yes; a large number of them. That was the general class, though we used also the written form. And we did that more particularly where we felt that there was a question. The Cuatrman. When you say that you took great care to ascer- tain the quantum of Indian blood in the grantor, tell more partic- ularly, Mr. Baker, what you did?: Mr. Baxer. Well, we would get the relatives of the man in and find from them their genealogy, as near as we could. We would find that one relative had passed as a mixed blood and we would ask him his reasons for it. After questioning the Indian thoroughly, if we found that in the strains of people outside of this man there was white blood, and he was a direct relation, we recognized him as a mixed blood. The Cuarrman. You then assumed the fact to be that he was a mixed blood, and that it was safe to buy the land? Mr. Baxer. We thought it was safe to buy the land under those conditions. The Cuatrman. As I said before, if upon investigation a court would find and determine that he was not a mixed blood you knew from the beginning that in that case you got no title? Mr. Barer. Exactly. : The Cuarrman. Did you inquire from a lawyer, or from any source, what constituted a mixed blood? Mr. Baxer. Yes; but the information that we got was entirely aie We assumed that any one with Indian blood was a mixed ood. The Cuatrman. However slight? Mr. Baxer. However slight. Every attorney that we talked to thought a Negro was a Negro it he had a drop of Negro blood in him, and we thought that the same conditions applied to the Indian. The Cuatrman. Take the case of Pocahontas, who married John Rolfe 300 years ago and went to England with him; if her descend- ants had married white people ever since, without any additional intermingling of Indian blood, all of her descendants to-day would be Indians, would they? ° 7 Mr. Baxer. In the eyes of the law I presume they would be. The Guatrman. And in such case you would, of course, consider them mixed bloods? Mr. Baxer. Mixed bloods; yes, sir. The Cuairman. On the other hand, if a person had a trace of white blood in him as faint as the amount of Indian blood would WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2651 now be in the descendants’ of Pocahontas, you would consider him a mixed blood also? _ Mr. Baxer. We do not go back further than the fourth genera- tion. We try to go to two or three generations to find out where the name came from. The Cuairman. That is speaking of the fact, but of the theory and the law—your theory was that if an Indian had one white an- cestor 300 years ago, and no other white blood in him, he would still be a mixed blood ? Mr. Baxer. I would not say we went on any such theory. We do not go back so far. If we find a trace of white blood within three or four generations we presume that he is a mixed blood. The Cuairman. What do you say now? Do you say that the Sera admixture of Indian blood and white blood makes a mixed bloo Mr. Baxer. That would be asking me to be a specialist along that line. I can not look back further than we do on that reservation. ‘The Cuyarrman. Did anyone suggest to you—any. lawyer or any- one you consulted—that the courts might determine that, in order to be a mixed blood for the purpose of conveying his property away, one would have to have a certain amount of provable white blood, say, one-half of one and one-half of the other? r. Baxrr. I have heard it suggested that if it is below one thirty-second it would be too faint to take notice of, and he would be classed as of the blood which predominated. The Cuarrman. You knew all of these things and discussed them before you got this land? Mr. Baxer. Yes; exactly. Ths Cuatrman. And you made up your mind that you would invest ? Mr. Baxer. Yes. The Cuarrman. Of course, you got it cheap, Mr. Baker? Mr. Baxer. No; I would not say so. A reservation seems to be an attraction for every investor. I have bought adjoining lands to this reservation for less than I was paying the Indians for their leces. The Cuarrman. But land varies in quality in areas not very far apart. Oye Baker. That is true, but the land on the west side of the res- ervation will average better than the reservation, and the lands which we purchased were better than the reservation lands. The Cuarrman. With this element of doubt as to the title, and the land being distant from your home, why did you invest so heavily in it if you were not getting a bargain? Mr. Baxer. Because in any country where there is a rush of people to any particular territory you can dispose of your land. You have to get buyers, but you can dispose of your property, and the lands lying west of this reservation were in the hands of Norwegians who had held it without any change in title for a long time, while here was a change of land, and a change brings in new people and an opportunity to sell. : The Cuarrman. You were figuring, then, on an influx of outside people? 2652 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Baxer. Exactly. ; aes The Cuarrman. And there was a movement in_ that vicinity mainly through the railroad from Mahnomen to Detroit widely advertising these lands and inducing an influx of white people to come there? Mr. Baxer. I do not know that there was. In no place that I have ever handled lands has there been so little done to induce people to come in. The Cuarrman. Was there something done? Mr. Baxer. We got out maps with our advertisement on them. That is as far as we went, and I do not know of any particular ad- vertisement of that territory. The Cuarrwan. Why, then, did you expect an influx? Mr. Baxer. Because it had been advertised. The Cuarrman. Advertised where? Mr. Baxer. Notice had been given out generally that the White Earth Reservation had been opened for settlement. That was suffi- cient inducement to the people. An Indian reservation is an at- tractive investment wherever I have been. The Cuarrman. Now, Mr. Baker, I might state, so that it will go into the record, that when we were at Detroit, Minn., a large number of persons who were interested in investments such as you made there were before the committee. Fred Dennis, an attorney, of De- troit, had been employed by a number of them to represent them before the committee, and was with us during the entire hearing at Detroit; and Mr. A. L. Thompson, a lawyer and banker, of Mah- nomen, also appeared before the committee in their behalf, and they produced witnesses along the lines which I think you have in your mind, particularly representing the interests of investors and white people who owned the land on the reservation; but you can not, of course, be expected to know the nature of that testimony, and, as I understand it, you wish to make a statement to the committee now yourself, Mr., Barer. I would like to make a statement as to the condition of things when I went on the reservation and up to last fall. The Cyarrman. You may proceed. Mr. Baxerr. I first went on the reservation, I think, in 1906. It was the spring after the opening of the reservation under the Clapp amendment of the mixed-blood law. In driving over that reserva- tion I stopped with the Indians at that time. I found most of them living in the timber. I found that portions of the land on the prairie had been broken and were seeded down with mustard, and were the foulest lands I have ever seen, and I have handled hun- dreds of thousands of acres of land. I found the Indian who was living in the shacks outside the timber, and found that he had no garden; not a cow, not a pig, not a chicken, but only, perhaps, a couple of half-starved dogs. That was the condition in 1906, when I first went on the reservation. Living in the timber, they seemed to be existing in some way, but as to having anything growing around them, I did not find it. As to them doing anything, I did not see them doing anything; they only existed. Shortly after- wards—a year or two—they began selling out, and when one sold they seemed to divide with their neighbors and live riotously. Sa- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2653 loons were common on the reservation. There was an era of de- bauchery. Men who had got money for their timber claims, $10,000 or $15,000, disposed of the money within a year. It left them much worse than if they had not had any money. They acquired habits more shiftless than before. ; Last fall in my trips I stopped in the same old shacks. I found the conditions just the same as in 1906, if not worse, in spite of all that has been written of it. In purchasing our lands I will say that we used all the precau- tions, all the care we could, and in no case that has come under my attention has there been a dollar that the Indian did not get which he should have had. I am not speaking for the crook on the reser- vation. He was there, and I know it. But there are honest men that deal on the Indian reservation, and my record for 54 years in Waseca County is before you. My name is at stake, and my name is more than money to me. Living as I have all these years, where I have had a good name, and to have it tarnished by continual agita- tion, by pieces that have come to my attention that the men who bought for me were common thieves which I know is not a fact, it places me in a very unfavorable position. I do not care for the money, but my name is worth something. The world should know that there were honest investors on the White Earth Reservation. The crooks have passed out to Mexico and California, and the land bought from the Indian has gone into the hands of innocent pur- chasers and there will be no punishment for that class of people. It will be the honest settler and investor on the Indian reservation that will be punished. I do not Inow that I have anything further to say. I felt it a duty to myself to make a statement to this committee. Speaking of the minor cases, now, we have a suit by one George Libbey. He came into our bank one day. He was a large fellow, who would weigh above 180 pounds. He came in bringing with him witnesses, and he and they told me that he was over 21 years of age. He did not appear on the record as kept of the Indians by Mr. Mor- rison, and we could only check that fact as far as we could go. It seems that he was born down at Brailieu. His father and mother had died, and he had a stepfather. ‘The latter appeared a few days later at our office and said without we purchased the lands—we took all the precautions we could—he had appeared with witnesses that swore he was over 21 years of age, and he had sworn he was 23 years ofage. Wepaidcash forhisland. Wealways paid cash, and I never traded a horse, a chicken, or a wagon for a piece of land. I buy on cash, and when I sell I give the settler a lifetime to pay on his land. So there is no trade in any transaction I have had with the Indians. We paid him $650 for his 80. The land has a hardpan under it. I have dealt a great deal in land and claim to be a judge of land. The land had rushes on one portion of it—perhaps 10 or 15 acres. It was all that the land was worth at that time. A few days afterwards the stepfather said unless we paid him over one- half of the selling price of this land that he would make us trouble, as George Libbey was not of age. He is on the railroad now and has become of age. He came in my office and said, “ Mr. Baker, you have treated me white, and I will make it all well with you when I am 2654 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 21.” It is unjust to say that we have not treated the Indians well, because I know we have furnished many of them a sack of flour when they were hungry. ; The Crairman. Is there any further statement you wish to make? Mr. Baxer. I do not know of any further facts. The Cuairman. You knew then, and know now, that the sound- ness of your title would depend upon the fact as to whether or not he was of age, and not upon the representations he made as to his age, did you not? Mr. Baxer. Exactly. We presumed to use all precaution to ascer- tain that fact. The Cuarrman. Well, going a step further, you knew also that no amount of precaution or prudence would save you if the fact proved otherwise ? Mr. Baker. Of course; if the fact were otherwise. The Cuarrman. Judge Burch, do you wish to ask Mr. Baker any questions? Mr. Burcu. I would like to, with the permission of the com- mittee. The CuarrmMan. You may proceed. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Baker, who are the officers of your local bank at Mahnomen? Mr. Baxsr. Not at Mahnomen; Ogema. Mr. Burcu. Well, then, Ogema. . Mr. Baxer. I am president of the bank; Mr. Fargo was vice presi- dent and cashier, and Mr. C. A. Baker was assistant cashier. Mr. Burcu. They are gone, are they not? Mr. Baxer. Mr. Fargo is at Mahnomen. Mr. Burcu. He is a nephew of yours, is he not? Mr. Baxer. No; he is no relative of mine. Mr. Burcu. You know that serious charges were made against him for dealing with the Indians, do you not? Mr. Baxesr. I have heard them. Mr. Burcu. You disclaim that? Mr. Baxer. I have never heard of any crooked deal by him. Mr. Burcu. You have heard of charges brought against the offi- cials of your bank for dealings with the Indians, have you not? Mr. Baxer. I have seen them in the papers. Mr. Burcu. Why do you not sue the papers? Mr. Baxer. I might have sued the papers. Mr. Burcu, In other words, why do you come and make a com- plaint to the committee? Who are you complaining of? Mr. Baxerr. No one, except a general tendency seems to be to place the purchaser on an Indian reservation in a false light. Mr. Burcu. Who does that? Mr. Baxer. I do not know that fact. Mr. Burcu. It is not the Government of the United States, is it? Mr. Baxer. I have no means of knowing. _ Mr. Burcu. How many times have you been sued in your interest in the purchase of these lands—how many different cases? Mr. Baxer. I have been sued four times. That is, how many Gov- ernment suits? Mr. Burcu. -Yes. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2655 Mr. Baxer. I do not know just the number. Mr. Burcu. Well, about how many? Mr. Baxer. Well, something like 28. Mr. Burcu. What attorney represented you? Mr. Baxer. An attorney in St. Paul. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Powell? Mr. Barer. Yes; Mr. Powell. Mr. Burcu. Now, Mr. Baker, did you ever read any one of the bills in equity in which you are one of. the defendants? Mr. Baxer. I have; some of them. Mr. Burcu. Did any person alive ever tell you there was a charge of fraud against you, or anyone else in one oF these bills? Mr. Baxer. Not in these bills. Mr. Burcu. As a matter of fact, do you not know that these bills merely state that the Indians, mistaking their rights and believing that they had the same right to sell land in fee simple as anyone else, sought to convey away the interest of the United States? Mr. Baxer. That was the statement. Mr. Burcu. Hence, so far as the Government of the United States is concerned, you have not been charged with fraud? Mr. Baxsr. I do not presume [ have. Mr. Burcu. Have you ever heard of a Government officer charg- ing you with fraud outside the bills in equity? ‘ir. Baxer. I have not. Mr. Burcu. Why, then, do you not find fault with the newspaper people and with the persons, if you know of them, who are harming your reputation ? Mr. Baxer. We do not know who is harming our reputation. Mr. Burcu. Did you expect the committee to pass some law or make some provision that would stop such people? Mr. Baxer. We certainly did not. Mr. Burcu. Do you complain of any action of the Government officials ? Mr. Baxerr. The only complaint we have is that it seems that we are being looked upon in the wrong light. Mr. Burcu. They are not looking at you at all, are they? They are looking at the land, the land that has been wrongfully conveyed. Mr. Baxer. In some instances. Mr. Burcu. In all instances. No suit has been instituted by the Government out of the 1,200 that charges fraud. Mr. Baxer. It may not be a charge of fraud, but it is a question of facts in the case. . Mr. Burcu. Well, if an Indian had no right to convey away Gov- ernment properties—or sought to convey—and which you improvi- dently purchased or bought—that would not be a charge of fraud against you, would it? Mr. Baxer. No, sir. opera : Mr. Burcu. Well, why do you not sue that individual Indian? Mr. Baxer. What would you get? Mr. Burcu. That is it. If you enlisted to go into the Army you would know instinctively that you were taking your life in your hands, would you not? Mr. Baxer. That is true. : ‘ 2656 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. Well, in dealing with Indians, does not the same prin- ciple apply? , : Mr. Baxer. I assumed that I could deal with Indians as honorably as any other man. , Mr. Burcu. Oh, you could; but are you not taking a great risk in dealing with a person under guardianship unless he had been eman- cipated ? r. Baxer. You should have some protection, and the Govern- ment should protect them. ; ; Mr. Burcu. How is the Government protecting thieves? Mr. Baxer. They are commencing actions to recover land which they have received full value for. : Mr. Burcu. Let me put a question to you as a business man: If you bought a horse from somebody who did not own it, and the party who owned it sued to recover it, would you think that would be doing a wrong thing and that a decision in his favor would be protecting the thief? Mr. Baxer. That is an entirely different case. Mr. Burcu. I do not think so. Here was land that the Govern- ment had never emancipated (that is open to proof), here was land that the Government claims belonged to it as trustee for the Indians and owned it in fee simple. Have you any respect for the Supreme Court of the United States or their decisions? Mr. Baxur. Most certainly. . Mr. Burcu. Well, now, then, here was land which under the law of Congress had not been freed from restriction, although it had been allotted to them in severalty. You bought these lands. Mr. Baxer. We do not think we did. Mr. Burcu. Do you want the Government to keep its hands off? What do you want? Mr. Baxer. A sweeping prosecution or suits, commenced in a sweeping manner, seems entirely unnecessary. Twelve hundred suits would mean the bankruptcy of every individual, whether hon- orable or dishonorable. The individual certainly could not defend the suits. Mr. Burcu. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that if the Govern- ment had brought two or three suits to test these cases all of these people who had these lands would be selling them to third persons an ue land would be gone when the suits were brought against them ? Mr. Baxer. Yes; but the thief has moved out and disposed of his own land and the honorable man is left to defend the property. Mr. Burcu. You have been benefited by the work of this thief. Mr. Baxer. We are glad to get rid of the thief. Mr. Burcu. Now, you are truly good; you yourself have not done anything wrong? Mr. Baxer. If I have, I am here to answer for it. Mr. Burcu. In Minneapolis or St. Paul; yes; not here. ’ Mr. Baxer. Anywhere. I am prepared to answer for myself. I have done business for too many years to be classed as a criminal. Mr. Burcu. Who classes you as a criminal ? Mr. Baxer. You spoke of it yourself. Mr. Burcu. It is no use trying to throw any of this burden on me. I am glad to have you here, as you appear to be an intelligent WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2657 and widely diversified business man, so to speak. What I want to get at is how you looked at things then and how you look at them now. Now, here was the Government with so much land to answer for; here was an act which provided certain parties could not trans- fer their lands and that they were chargeable with the lands as in fee simple. Now, you started out, you claim, through your bank, to buy an amount of these lands, and succeeded in purchasing nearly a township in the aggregate. Now, Mr. Baker, you proceeded upon the theory that the Indians were telling you the truth? Mr. Baxer. I presumed so. Mr. Burcu. You presumed that they were; that they were trust- worthy ? Mr. Baxzer. I did not presume they were trustworthy. Mr. Burcu. No? i Mr. Barer. No; but where there were a number of them we could e sure. Mr. Burcu. Well, in numbers there was an assurity ? Mr. Baxer. We took the numbers. Mr. Burcu. Now, if you were going to buy a piece of land from a white man, and he laid you open by some failure of the title, would vou expect to hold the county, the State, or the United States for it? Mr. Baxer. I do not understand thai those lands belonged to the United States, but to the Indians. Mr. Burcu. That is all right. If you understand what is not the law, I can not help that. Did the lawyers advise you that way? Mr. Baer. I have never had any advice from the lawyers on that point. Mr. Burcu. You took your own judgment? Mr. Baxer. Yes. Mr. Burcu. You took your chances, then, did you not? Mr. Baxer. I suppose so. Mr. Burcu. If a court should happen to disagree with you, what would you do? . Mr. Baxer. I should have to accept the judgment of the court. Mr. Burcu. That is all we are asking. We have not charged you with frand in connection with this. : Mr. Baxer. But the question of the individual fighting the United States becomes a very serious one. ; Mr. Burcu. Suppose it does: who made it, you or them? Mr, Baxer. The Indians. While the Clapp amendment was a farce and should not have been passed, it has been passed and we use every precaution in buying the land. a : Mr. Burcu. Suppose you did use every precaution in buying the lands from Tom, Dick, or Harry, who would be responsible for it? Tom, Dick, or Harry, would they not? : : Mr. Baxer. We presumed that we were sufficiently careful in buy- ing these lands that no question of the kind that has arisen could arise. Mr. Georce. You did presume? ; Mr. Baxer. We did. I did not know any of these things for cer- tain. Mr. Burcu. You have to take the consequences of your own pre- sumption, do you not? 2658 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. - Mr. Baxerr. If the United States goes on and pushes the suits, we . will have to take the punishment, that is all. : Mr. Burcu. What would the United States do? Will they have to keep their hands off on the full-blood linet? Mr. Baxer. On the full-blood lines there, I think, they should be prosecuted. Mr. Burcu. In these cases there is no full-blood case. Mr. Baxer. And if the very Indian himself comes in and swears he is full blood, still we are sued. He comes in and we say, “Are you going to swear you are a full blood?” He will say, “No; I ama mixed blood; my mother was so and so, and my father was so and so.” Mr. Burcu. Are you aware that these different Indians have gone before other parties and sworn to the contrary of what you say ? Mr. Baxer. I presume thev have. Mr. Burcu. You simply got left on their swearing, did you not? Mr. Baxer. Well. Mr. Burcu. Well, what would you have the Government do? Mr. Baxer. Well, on cases where there is no question but that the Indian is a mixed blood, I would not commence suits against the individual Mr. Burcu (interposing). There is no such case in the 1,200, and you are unfortunately charged with having presumed wrong in your 28 cases. We can not take your word. Mr. Baxer. Well, you might leave out the lands we have bought on this presumption when you commence these suits. Mr. Burcu. You want the Interior Department and the Depart- ment of Justice to take your word for this and dismiss their suits? Mr. Baxer. No, sir; I would not ask them to dismiss the suits except as to these where there is no question but there is a strain of white blood with the individual where he will come in and swear he was 21 years of age when he made his deed. I think these are the cases which should be dismissed. Mr. Burcu. Mr. Baker, let me take you at your word. Just stop talking so much and just listen a moment. Let me take you at your word. There is a question or the Government would not have brought the suits. I know there is a question. What are you going todo? Do you mean no question in your judgment or the judgment of those who were informed otherwise ? Mr. Baxer. I do not know. Mr. Burcu. Well, you have your judgment and say you are right, and I have my judgment and I say I am right. You have your informants, and I have mine. What are we going to do about it? Mr. Baxer. Suppose—— ‘Mr. Burcu (interposing). Will you answer the question? Mr. Baxer. I was going to answer it in another way. Suppose we should take an Indian before you in any of these cases that have been brought and he should make oath before you that he was 21 years of age, or that he was a mixed-blood Indian and should bring witnesses before you to that effect, should not that case be dismissed and thus save an expense greater than the land is worth? : Mr. Burcu. Why should we take his word for it when it is not rue? a Baker. We have no other way of knowing whether it is true or not. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2659 Mr. Burcu. Why? Mr. Baxer. What witness is better than the man himself? Mr. Burcu. Could you not testify to matters as to your own birth? Mr. Baxer. I could testify as to my genealogy. Mr. Burcu. You might possibly be allowed by law to do it, but you would not know more than you had read. Mr. Baxer. Then, on the same proposition, you could not prove anything about yourself if it should come up in a trial. Mr. Burcu. How do you know the cost of these cases? Mr. Baxer. We Imow the cost from the fact that those expenses in these cases are more than the land is worth in every case. Mr. Burcu. You mean to say you expect to pay out more money for the attorneys .and other expenses of litigation than you have paid to the Indians for the purchase prices of their lands? Mr. Baxer. To bring a suit on a single eighty and carry it through will cost more than the value of that eighty. Mr. Burcu. How do you know these things? Now, you do not know anything about it before these cases are tried, do you? Mr. Baxer. I have had cases in court and know what the ex- penses are. Mr. Burcu. I will tell you—oh, well, I don’t think it is profitable to go any further. You assumed, when you went into this business, that a person with the slightest trace of Indian blood in him was an Indian, did you not? Mr. Baxer. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now, suppose, Mr. Baker, that your father and your mother, at least your father and your father’s father and your father’s mother, your grandmother and your grandfather on your father’s side, were all English; but that, commencing back from perhaps the second or third generation, there was a French wife, or part French wife, came in, and you went along, and the question what you were or were not should come up, and you should say: “Tam an Englishman ”; and I should say: “ No; you are a French- man”; and you would say: “No; I am an Englishman ”; and I say: “Well, Iam not; I am a Frenchman ”; you insist—— Mr. Grorcr. You mean “you” are not? Mr. Burcu. I am speaking of him, as if he were doing the talk- ing. “I am an Englishman. I am a Frenchman.” Would you think that anybody who claims that you are not an Englishman but that you were a Frenchman was doing the right thing? Mr. Baxer. You mean claim to have French blood? Mr. Burcu. But would that make you a Frenchman? Mr. Baxer. It would make it so in the eyes of the law in the case of the Negro or the Indian; that has always been our understanding. Mr. Burcu. Who has understood this? Mr. Baxer. It has been common at law that when a man had negro blood in him, no matter how small, he was a Negro, and an Indian, I have understood, followed along the same line. Mr. Burcu. Is that your understanding? Mr. Baxer. That is what I have read. Mr. Burcu. Whom did you read it from? Mr. Baxer. I do not know. Mr. Gzorce. At any rate, you did business on that idea. 2660 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Borcu. You take the consequences, do you not? Mr. Baxer. I assume so. Mr. Burcu. You are a pretty wealthy man, are you not, and are well able to take the consequences ? ; ; ; Mr. Baxer. I am able to labor, and my honest intentions will en- able me to pay back every dollar, and go to the poorhouse rather than to deny them one dollar. ; ; Mr. Burcu. I understand your admissions as to your good inten- tions, but what I am trying to get at is this: If you think that you have done perfectly right in all respects, and you do not hold the Government responsible for the representations that have been made to it, but claim the right to hold the Indian responsible for the rep- resentations that have been made to you, and you are not willing to take the ordinary course of litigation to determine which is right and which is wrong, what are you going to do? Mr. Baxer. I can see no other way than the claim that the Indian has misrepresented to us that he was a mixed blood is sufficient to deny to him all rights in that land. Mr. Burcn. Is it sufficient to deny the United States of its right in those lands? Mr. Baxer. I do not understand that the United States has any interests in the land. Mr. Burcu. It owns the fee simple title, according to the highest authority in the land. As they own it in fee simple, how is the In- dian entitled to convey it away? The Cuarrman. Gentlemen, do not fill the record with any legal argument. I am sure you can not agree as to what the law is. Have you any further questions for Mr. Baker, Judge? Mr. Burcu. No. __ The Cuatrman. Mr. George, have you? Mr. Geores. No. The Cuatrman. Mr. Baker, you stated awhile ago that when you were on the reservation in 1906, after the passage of the Clapp Act, there was a regular orgy of drinking and rioting? Mr. Baer. Yes, sir; there was. The Cuarrman. Where was that manifest? _ Mr. Baxer. Well, you would find the Indians lying around in bunches drunk, a dozen in a place lying all night long in the rain without any covers. — The Cuatrman. Was that over along the railroad or was it gen- eral over the reservation ? Mr. Baxer. General over the reservation. Whisky bottles, beer bottles, “ soldiers,” could have been taken out by the wagonload. The Cuatrman. You call the whisky bottles by the name of “soldiers,” do you not? Mr. Baxer. We call them “soldiers.” The Cuatrman. Have you any knowledge as to whether or not the drinking was done before or after a sale was made? Mr. Baxer. Before they sold? The Cuarrman. Yes. ; Mr. Baer. We have not given liquor to any Indian. The Cuairmay. I am not speaking of you. I am taking you at your word that you are an honorable man, but I am speaking gen- erally. Is it true that some people up there gave him liquor first WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2661 and then traded for his land with him while while he was under the influence of that liquor? Mr. Baxer. I never saw it. The Cuamman. Of course, you will admit at once that when an Indian is under the influence of liquor he is not fit to transact business of any sort ? i Mr. Baxer. I should not think he was. Nor should I think any white man would be. The Cuarrman. Is it not true that liquor affects the Indian more adversely than it does the white man? Mr. Baxer. I think it does. ‘ The Cuairman. Where did they get the liquor? Mr. Baxer. There were saloons, many in every town. I have driven around with a load of Indians, and when we got out at the town of White Earth, they got out and got the liquor right on the reservation. I asked why this was being done against the law. I am a temperance man, and I never take a drink, and I have no use for any man who takes a drink The CHairMan (interposing). You are almost intemperate in your temperance. Well, on the railroads and in the villages they license the saloons, do they not? Mr. Baxer. They do. The Cuarirman. Do you know how they got it in this town, the town being in the reservation? Mr. Baxer. I do not know, but I think Pussy-foot Johnson—— The Cuatrman (interposing). How long did that condition con- tinue there to your knowledge? Mr. Baxer. About three years. i could not be sure as to that, but the same condition is in existence to-day. The Cuarrman. To-day? Mr. Baxer. Yes; where they can get the money. In this town of Ogema, where I have this bank, saloons are kept to-day. The Cuarrman. Is there not this difference between 1906 and now, at least 1905 and now, that while they might not have had any more money then than now, or much more clothes then than now, or much better houses; but they did have something to fall back on then, and they have nothing to fall back on now? Mr. Baxrr. Let me answer that by using the expression of one who owned the land. A man came into our bank and wanted $5 to buy flour for his family. Mr. Fargo called me to the window to find out what the man wanted. I asked him what is was that caused him to come begging, and he said it was liquor. He had one of the finest tracts down there and he sold it. He went to Detroit and took the train to Chicago and played the races one afternoon and tramped back to Detroit. He said it never did him any good while he owned the land, and it could do him no good then. The Cuatrman. But you do not accept his philosophy, do you? Mr. Baxer. I do. That was the common way of disposing of the money that they got for their land. ; ; The Cuarrman. That may be true, but still you do not believe that his present condition is really as desirable as his former one, do vou? Mr. Barer. He might have the satisfaction of knowing he had a piece of land, but he would have no income from it. 2662 WHILE EARTH RESERVATION, The Cuarrman. Was not there a hope that the elevating methods that the Government was pursuing would get him to the plane where he would appreciate the value of his allotment? Mr. Baxer. Might I not put-that differently and say the “ degrad- ing” means. : The Cuarrman. Why do you say that? Mr. Baxerr. As I learned when I was a boy, you get a cow in the mire and lift on her and she lays back on you. If you take an Indian and lift on him he lays down on you. If the Indian had to earn his own: living he could do it as well as the Caucasian, does. I do not believe a man fifteen-sixteenths white should have any more advan- tage in getting land from the Government than one sixteen-six- teenths white should have. The Carman. Where would you draw the line—at what quantum ? Mr. Baxer. The full blood only. The Cuarrman. Well, has it not been your experience with them that there are some full bloods who are shrewder than some others are who are not quite full bloods? Mr. Baxer. I think I might answer that question by saying that a man who will cohabit and marry an Indian woman certainly must be vile to begin with and that the offspring would be more vile—— The CuarrMan (interposing). That would seem to contradict your other answer. Mr. Baxer. I speak not of the incapacity, but of the vileness of the Indian. The Cuairman. In what sense do you mean that word? Mr. Baxer. It would not mean incapacity. It would mean he was low, degraded, vile in his habits. The Cuarrman. Well, that might be true, perhaps, of that par- ticular white man, and yet his grandson might be a very clever, decent fellow, and he would have some of the white blood in him and would be ranked as an Indian the way they give it on the reservation. Mr. Baxetr. I would rather he would not have Indian of that kind. I have seen enough of it. The Cuairman. As I understand your statement, Mr. Baker, you were led by the general public belief that if a person has the slightest admixture of negro blood in him he is a negro; are you not. aware that it is largely the result of prejudice and not a matter of law? Mr. Baxer. I do not know the.law. I think there is no law ex- cept that law which is becoming a natural law as we know the negro and as we know the Indian. Mr. Grorcr. Custom makes the law ? Mr. Baxer. Yes; custom makes it. The Cuarrman. There is not so strong a prejudice against the Indian as there is against the negro, is there? _Mr. Baxer. If the Indian were as common as the negro the preju- dice would be just as strong, but I presume it is not as strong. The Carman. Well, now, having of your own motion come be- fore the committee, I suppose there is something you want the com- mittee to do. Will you give us some idea of your reasons for coming before us and what you think we should do because you have come? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2663 Mr. Baxer. My reason was this: I was in Florida during the winter and from what I saw in the Journal I came The Cuarrmawn (interposing). The Minneapolis Journal ? Mr. Baxer. Yes; the Chicago pee and others. I became im- pressed that there was a general feeling being aroused against men who had purchased land on that Indian reservation. I felt it was my duty to come before you while I was in the city as a man, and I ask nothing’ but justice. The Cuairman. You knew, did you not, the purpose the commit- tee had in going to Minnesota and making the investigation ? Mr. Baxer. Yes; and I took up a paper and read as to that inves- tigation. I think you, Mr. Graham, are one of those who went to the huts to see the evil conditions of the Indian and I thought it would prejudice you, as you were not there in 1906 when these huts were in the same condition or perhaps worse, and that is why I felt it was my duty to come before the committee here. The Cuairman. What do you suggest that the committee should do, now that we have had you before us and have heard your story? Mr. Baxer. I think that this committee should use every means to have some bill—I do not know whether it has already been pre- sented or not; I am quite ignorant of the conditions that exist; I have talked with no one—I think some bill should come that will settle the matter fully as to these lands. As to the Steenerson bill passed last year, I think it was entirely unfavorable, yet we accepted it unquestionably. We only ask to get our money back. We dis- pose of these lands for from $8 to $16 and $20 an acre. We put in from the Holstein settlement Norwegians whom we have had since 1886. They are good settlers and we have located them there. We feel that we should at least come before the committee and present these facts. The Cuarrman. Do you not think that the committee’s investiga- tion and its trip to Minnesota was for the purpose of finding out how to relieve the white settlers there? Mr. Barer. No; I do not presume so. I presume it was to settle the conditions as they existed, and I do not wish to feel that it was proper that this committee should understand that these conditions existing there to-day had been brought about by the Clapp amend- ment, as I found them there at my earliest visit in 1906. The Cuarrman. You got there how soon after the Clapp amend- ment became a law? Mr. Baxer. It was sometime in July of that year. The Cuarrman. You did not lose much time. Did you think at all of the Government’s duty toward the Indians? Mr. Baxer. Most certainly I did. The Cuarrman. Did it occur to you that at one time that tribe of Indians, the Ojibways and the Chippewas, owned all the lands from Lake Huron to the Dakotas, and that the white man, little by little, kept crowding them into the corner until he got them on a number of reservations in Minnesota and Wisconsin, and then made a deliberate treaty with them, telling them that if they would go to White Earth, White Lake, and a number of other places, they would have their property rights and the Government would see to it that these rights would be preserved ? 2664 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Baxer. We knew that was a fact. The Cuatrman. Do you believe that the Government should keep faith with them ? Mr. Baxer. I presume that at the same time they can sell their land. I think the Government has kept faith with them. The Cuarrman. Do you think it would be keeping faith with them to sacrifice their interests in order that white settlers might thrive? Mr. Burcu. And speculators. The Cuarrman. I am putting it on a higher plane than you do, Judge. I do not want to offend Mr. Baker’s sensibilities, or any man who simply wanted to make an honest dollar. I do assume Mr. Baker went to White Earth to buy land and make money. Mr. Baxer. That was my purpose. The Cuarrman. Well, in buying that land, it appears that you have possibly made a mistake and invested in land that had not a ‘ood title to it; and if it were the land of a white man in your own State or my State who was an imbecile or was under a legal disa- bility and not permitted to do business, and you went and bought that land from this white man, under those circumstances you would get no title and you would have to bear the loss; but in this case, as the fellow who sells it is an Indian whom the Government had been consistently crowding into a corner and then promised to protect him in the remnant left to him, you think he ought to yield again and give way to the white man? Mr. Baxer. I would say this, that we in no case bought from an Indian who did not have a reason for selling. The Cuarrman. His reason was a child’s reason. Take the aver- ‘age Indian, with half Indian blood or more, and from the little experience I have had I would rate him at not more than the mental acumen or business capacity of a child of 15 years or under. Now, if you bought from a child or imbecile Mr. Baxer (interposing). But if I had the advantages in early life that an Indian on the White Earth Reservation has The CuarrmMan (interposing). I do not know about that. Mr. Baxerr. The Indians from whom we have bought are gradu- ates of Carlisle, and they have had the best of schools on the reser- vation. The Cuairman. Mr. Baker, just because I think you are a sincere and good man, I am taking more time with you than perhaps I should. I have stated the case this way to others, and I want to see how you look at it. You are the product of 20 to 50 generations of men who were trained in business ways, who were traders. Your ancestors back for hundreds of years have been trained in com- merce and business and in trying to keep the other fellow from cheating them and possibly cheating the other fellow. They have been trained in weighing propositions and deciding as to values. You are the product of that, and you have inherited a vast amount of that kind of ability from your ancestors. The civilization of which you are a product has been developed largely along lines of trade and commerce and value; that is, taking articles and deciding what is their value. You are the product of all those centuries of that kind of living and experience. The Indian is just the opposite of that. He has no ideas of value. His only ideas are those of WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2665 war and the chase; they are all he knew about. He had no sense of industry except in the hunt. His education and the education of his ancestors crosses yours. They are diametrically opposed to it, and yet it seems from what you say that you would turn him loose as on equal terms with you, and that he must look out for himself in the trade. Do you think it is reasonable? Let me ask another question, and you can answer them both at once. The Gov- ernment of the United States has taken that Indian under its wings—has forced itself on him as his guardian—and says, “I will look after your property,” and says that with a knowledge of all-the facts I have stated to you. Now, do you think the Government should allow him to meet you and trade with you at arm’s length? Mr. Baxer. That would be a hard thing to answer. I might say the same thing of an ignorant foreigner that comes in. The Cuarrman. He is the product of more generations than you are. Mr. Baker. He places himself at the shovel and raises himself as best he can. The Indian finds himself lifted and lays down. The Cuarrman. Is that the best answer you can make to my statement ? Mr. Baxer. I do not know that I can make any better answer. The Caarrman. Why, the Italian’s ancestors were ruling trade and commerce 2,500 years ago. Mr. Baxer. We do not know but what the Indian’s ancestors were ruling it prior to that. . The Cuamman. We do not go so far back as that. All the Indian’s training is contrary to yours, and he has no business sense whatever. He could not tell the difference between the value of a gilt bead and a diamond. Mr. Baxer. But mankind originated from one common an- cestor—— ‘ The CrarrMan (interposing). But we are not going back that ar. Mr. Baxer. You are going very far back. The Cuairman. I think we have given this question long enough. We are glad that Mr. Baker has come to the hearings, but I think practically everything you have told us, Mr. Baker, already appears in the record from other sources. Mr. Baxer. I know nothing of the facts that have been pre- sented in this case, and I thought it was an injustice to myself not to appear before you. At the time your commission was at Detroit I sent word to my nephew—he was in Los Angeles, and I notified him by telegraph—telling him to come back at once. The Cuarrman. You are excused, Mr. Baker. STATEMENT OF HARRY C. STEVENS, OF WASHINGTON, D. C. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Cuarrman. Please give your full name? Mr. Stevens. Harry C. Stevens. ihe CuarrMan. You reside in the city of Washington, Mr. Ste- vens ? Mr. Srevens. Yes. 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-2. vol 2——73 2666 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuarrman. What is your present occupation ? ; : Mr. Srnvens. I am one of the representatives of the Minneapolis Journal. The Cuarrman. How long have you represented that paper in Washington ? Mr, Stevens. I have been in the bureau for about 15 years. The Cuairman. Mr, Stevens, were you representing that paper here in July, 1906? Mr. Srevens. I was. : ; The CuarrMan. While the committee sat in Minneapolis one of the representatives of the paper whose name, I think, was Campbell— however, a representative of the paper who went to White Earth and wrote up the conditions existing there soon after the passage of the Clapp amendment (the chairman’s attention was called to the proper name of the newspaper writer as being that of Raymond Marshall, and the chairman then continued), came before the committee, read the account of his paper into the record, and testified as to the accu- racy of it. I ask you if there is now before you a file of the Minne- apolis Journal for that year? -Mr. Srevens (indicating a newspaper file). This is it. The Cuarrman. Is the account of Mr. Marshall to which I refer now before you? Mr. Srevens. I do not know who wrote it, but I assume it is. It is headed “Staff correspondent,” and I assume it is. It is of that date. The Cuarrman. After that time and in pursuance of that did you receive any instructions from the management of the Journal at Minneapolis? , Mr. Srevens. As I recall it, I did receive a telegram (it came to Mr. Jermane, the chief of the bureau), and as I do all of this local work he turned it over tome. This telegram, as I recall it, called at- tention to the fact that. the’Indians were being robbed up there. The Cuatrman. When did you receive this telegram ? Mr. Srevens. On July 17 or 18, 1906. The Cuarrman. If, in pursuance of the receipt of that telegram, you interviewed anyone, whom was it you interviewed ? Mr. Srevens. I went to see Mr. Thomas Ryan, of the Department of the Interior. The Cuatrman. What was his position? Mr. Srevens. He was the Assistant Secretary of the Interior. The Cuamrman. Now, if the telegram which came to your office or bureau here and the interview which you had with him was after- aes published in the Minneapolis Journal, when was it pub- ished ? Mr. Stevens. The telegram I got? The Cuarrman. The interview you had with Mr. Ryan. Mr. Stevens. It was published on July 18. The Cuarrman. You have before you the Minneapolis Journal of date July 18, 1906? Mr. Srevens. Yes. _ The Cuarrman. I call your attention on the front page of that issue to an article entitled “ Robbing of Indians being investigated. White Earth conditions command attention of Interior Depart- ment.” And that is an article under the name of W. W. Jermane. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2667 Mr. Stevens. The telegram was signed “ W. W. Jermane.” The Cuarrman. This first was a telegram from the bureau here in Washington to the editor in Minneapolis? Mr. Stevens. Yes, sir. The Cuamrman. And after that you had that interview with Mr. Ryan? . hi Srevens. I did. The Cuairman. And this article is a statement of what occurred at that interview ? Mr. Srevens. As I recall it. I assume that that was stated ac- curately. It was always my aim to state facts and not misquote any- body. The Cuatrman. It was your purpose at the time to state with sub- stantial accuracy the interview which you received ? : Mr. Srevens. It was. The Cuarrman. Now, will you kindly read that? Mr. Srevens (reading) : Robbing of Indians Being Investigated—White Earth Conditions Command Attention of the Interior Department.—By W. W. Jermane. WASHINGTON, July 18.—Immediate investigation of the conditions at Detroit, Minn., as shown by the Journal, is to be made by the Department of the In- terior. Judge Ryan, Acting Secretary, when shown a telegram from the Journal out- lining the conditions, asked permission to make a copy, and stated that he would have to have a report from Agent Simon Michelet by telegraph. Neither Judge Ryan nor Acting Indian Commissioner Larrabee, had been in- formed of any drunkenness or other unusual state of affairs at White Earth, or of any in the vicinity of the reservation. Judge Ryan, however, said that it is not surprising that these conditions exist, as they would be repetition of what has happended at other reservations when the Indians have received patents for lands or payments of considerable sums of money. The disposition of Indian lands rests with Cougress. However, said Judge Ryan, the law is now on the statute boks and the department is helpless to prevent the Indians from being cheated out of their land. The department is not in a position to take any action relative to issuing patents for the additional 80 acre allotments to White Earth Indians under the Steenerson Act. -This is because Agent Michelet has not yet submitted his allotment schedules. It is said, however, that the examination of such schedules is usually a long process, and it may be several months after its re- ceipt before it is approved and the allotment patents issued. It is assumed here that Agent Michelet is proceeding with these allotments under instructions issued some time ago, and that the schedules will be sub- mitted as soon as the allotments are completed. The CHarrman. That was all. You are excused, Mr. Stevens. STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL B. HENDERSON, OF WASHING- TON, D. C. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Cuarrman. Give your full name, Mr. Henderson. Mr. Henperson. Daniel B. Henderson. The Cuarrman. You live in Washington? Mr. Henverson. My office is here. I am a resident of Bedford County, Va. The Cuarrman. Your place of business is in Washington? Mr. Henvezrson. It is? . The Cuarrman. You are an attorney at law? 9668 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Henverson. Yes. The Cuairman. For how long? Mr. Henverson. Since 1884. ; The Cruairman. Do you follow any special line of practice? Mr. Henpvrrson. My work is usually concerning Indian matters, Mr. Chairman. : The Cuarrman. Have you any fixed Indian business? Mr. Henverson. I have to ask for a little more definite explana- tion of your question, Mr. Chairman. ; ; The CratrMan. Have you any contracts with any Indian tribes or bands as their attorney? Mr. Henverson. Yes, sir; I have a number of contracts. The Cuairman. With what ones? Mr. Henperson. Some of the Chippewa bands and some of the Sioux people, and perhaps others. The Cuartrman. Is the White Earth Indian among them? Mr. Henperson. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. I do not care to follow that further at this time. Judge Burch, was there anything you wished to ask Mr. Henderson? Mr. Burcu. No, sir. The Cuairman. Mr. George, have you? Mr. Grorcr. What was the nature of this contract with the White Earth Indians that you had, or have now? Mr. Henperson. I have a number of contracts with the White Earth Indians; that is to say, Mr. George, I have had contracts with them, but I suppose in the contemplation of the Secretary of the Interior they would not be contracts, because they are not agreements that have received the approval of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior, but these contracts relate to the tribal rights of the people; none of them are individual contracts, and they are rights that arise out of the old treaty obligations be- tween them and the Government of the United States from the earliest time down to the present time. Mr. Grorcr. Have you been on the White Earth Reservation ? Mr. Henperson. Yes, sir; a good many times. , Mr. Gzorcz. Before the passage of the Mr. Henverson. Beginning in 1902 and extending down to some- thing over a year ago. oe Grorcr. Then you have known something of the conditions there? Mr. Henperson. Generally speaking, I have been somewhat famil- iar with general conditions there. Mr. Georcz. And do you not have a pretty wide acquaintarice there with the men who are active on the reservation ? Mr. Henpzrson. Active in what sense, Mr. George? Mr. Grorce. Active in the ordinary sense—among those who were Government officials and those who were the active business men. Mr. Henverson. I have an acquaintance with the agent and the agency force, both under Maj. Michelet and Maj. Howard. I am not very intimate there, but I have some acquaintances from my long stops there. I sometimes stay a month or more. Mr. Gzorcr. And among the business men? Mr. Henverson. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. Mr. Fairbanks? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2669 Mr. Henperson. Yes, sir; I know him well. Mr. Gzorcr. And Gus Beaulieu? Mr. Hznperson. Yes; I know him well. ue Grorce. And you know something of the councils that they had ? Mr. Henverson. I do not know that they held any council—at least there are no other Indian councils. Mr. Gzorcr. What do you understand to be the nature of an In- dian council ? Mr. Henverson. An Indian council was a gathering of the repre- sentative men of the tribe on the reservation at a designated time and place, held in pursuance of such notice as was considered the proper notice among the Indians. That would be my idea of an Indian council. Mr. Grorce. Would you regard it as governed by the ordinary rulings of calling a meeting to do business? Would you regard the notice there as equivalent to a notice calling a business meeting here? Mr. Henverson. I took it that the kind of notice they gave was in accordance with their Indian customs and was sufficient. I never had any very distinct conception of what notice should have been given. There has always been a question in my mind as to the suffi- ciency of the notice given, but I have always assumed that it was such a notice as the Indian regarded as sufficient and seemed to be satisfied with. Mr. Georcr. What was the important business ? Mr. Henverson. The passing of resolutions relating to their tribal affairs, sending delegations to Congress, the filing of memorials, the employment of counsel, etc. Mr. Grorce. Were you ever present at any of these councils? ‘Mr. Henperson. Very frequently; yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. How many did you find sitting in a council? Mr. Henperson. My recollection is that these councils in the White Earth Reservation would vary from 50 to 150 persons. Mr. Grorce. Did you regard those as a proper kind of council? Mr. Henpverson. I did; yes, sir. Mr. Grorcr. As legal in every sense? Mr. Henperson. Yes; I considered them to be what the Indians regarded as satisfactory gatherings for the transaction of the busi- ness that was to be transacted. Mr. Gzorce. Who usually ran these councils? Mr. Henpzrson. I can not say that I ever discovered that any par- ticular person ran them. The ruling spirit at the councils seemed to be what you would call the head men of the tribe. I recall some of the names, for instance, on the White Earth Reservation that I could give you, if it is desired. Mr. Grorcs. Well, if you remember them I would like to hear you state them. Mr. Henverson. Well, there was Nezhakegeshig; Wahweyeacumig was perhaps the next one. Joseph Charette. The Cuatrman (interposing). That is a different man from Jo- seph Critt. You mean the old soldier? Mr. Henperson. Yes, sir; and he spells his name C-h-a-r-e-t-t-e. C-r-i-t-t is simply an abbreviation. 2670 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuamrman. The stenographer will enter Charette’s name as “alias Charette” and “alias Critt.” Mr. Henverson (continuing). Then, there was Shayday. He was another one of the men. Knickerbocker was another, and I could name more. I just commence to think of them now as men who took part in the councils. , Mr. Grorcr. Was Mr. Beaulieu present? Was he figuring in these councils? } : Mr. Henverson. He was always interested in sending out the notices of the meetings. henechs Mr. Grorcr. Did you ever know Mr. Beaulieu intimately ? Mr. Henperson. I feel that I knew him very well. Mr. Georce. And Mr. Fairbanks? Mr. Henperson. Not so well as Mr. Beaulieu, but I knew him well. Mr. Georcr. Did you ever have any business relations with Mr. Beaulieu or Mr. Fairbanks? Mr. Henverson. Not otherwise, I believe, than in connection with these tribal matters. Mr. Grorcz. You mean flatly that you did not? Mr. Hxenperson. I do not recall any business transactions. Mr. Grorcr. No understandings of any sort? Mr. Henperson. I do not know of any occasion for it outside of the Indian matters. Mr. Georcr. My recollection is that there appeared in the testi- mony of Mr. Beaulieu testimony to the effect that there was some kind of business understanding with you—that he has a business understanding with you? Mr. Henperson. Apart from the Indian matters? Mr. Grorcr. Apart from what might be official Indian matters. Mr. Henperson. You can probably refresh my memory. : Mr. Georcr. I want to ask if you have any recollection ? Mr. Henperson. I have no recollection outside these Indian mat- ters. Mr. Georce. No kind of an arrangement—no business understand- ings that would be outside the public council matters? Mr. Henverson. Well, business understandings about matters that were in these tribal matters. Mr. Beaulieu has been interested in these suits, for instance, in the Mille Lacs case. Mr. Beaulieu had an interest in that case, as I did, but mine was only nominal. My name appears there as a person receiving a fee in that case the same as Mr. Beaulieu; likewise as in the Mille Lacs case that is now pending, and Mr. Beaulieu, along with every man on the reservation, would have been interested in that litigation after it reached that stage. _Mr. Gzorcz. But, aside from that, there was no arrangement—no ae of business arrangement with Mr. Beaulieu? I am curious to ow. Mr. Henperson. I am anxious to tell you, if you will refresh my memory. Mr. Grorce. Have you any memory at all? Mr. Henverson. In 1902, there was passed what was known as the “Inherited-Land Act ”—May 27, I think, 1902—whereby the lands of deceased Indians could be sold by the agent, and at that time I assisted in the formation of a syndicate, in which Mr. Beaulieu was WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2671 interested, for the purchase of those inherited lands; but, on account of the attitude assumed by the Secretary of the Interior and the change in his rules and regulations, I found I could not follow it up and dropped out of it. I know that Mr. Beaulieu continued. That was the only thing now additional that occurs. Mr. Grorce. Who was in that syndicate? Mr. Henperson. As originally organized, Mr. R. A. Chester, of this city, the cashier of one of the banks here, and Mr. Richard C. Adams. Mr. Grorcr. Who was he? Mr. Henverson. He is a Delaware Indian. And Mr. R. J. Angus, of Fergus Falls, and a Dr. Thomas R. McLean, of Fergus Falls. Mr. Grorcr. Nobody else? Mr. Henperson. I do not recall anybody else. on Gzorce. Anybody connected with the Indian Department in that? Mr. Henverson. No, sir; if there was, it was concealed from me. I have.never heard it intimated before. Mr. Grorcz. I mean anybody on the reservation—any official or anybody here. Mr. Hewverson. Beaulieu was one of the persons interested. Mr. Grorer. And Mr. Fairbanks? Mr. Henverson. Not so far as I know. All those. operations were terminated by the Secretary of the Interior, twice in quick succes- sion changing his rules and regulations regarding advertising and accepting the bids, so that I saw it was impracticable to follow it so far as I was concerned, and I think the arrangement terminated very largely by Mr. Angus taking what lands had been purchased and what Mr. Beaulieu’s interest in it afterwards turned out to be I do not know. I was unfortunate enough to lose what money I put into it by reason of the Secretary of the Interior changing his rules and regulations. Mr. Georcr. So that you lost your money ? Mr. Henperson. Yes. Mr. Gzorce. What were you to be if the plan had succeeded—were you to be the legal adviser? Mr. Henperson. I can not say that there was to be any arrange- ment to that effect, but if the business had turned out to be what it might have been I probably would have gone to the reservation. Mr. Gzorcs. I knew a very brilliant cartoonist in New York once who said he would subscribe to some stock by making cartoons and continuing to make cartoons until the paper “busted.” Did you have any such contract? . . Mr. Henverson. No, sir; I wish I had put in nothing but car- toons. Mr. Georcr. Was there any other enterprise in which you were interested with Mr. Gus Beaulieu—any other business enterprise? Mr. Henverson. No, sir; I do not recall it. Mr. Grorcr. Or Mr. Fairbanks? Mr. Henperson. No, sir. I have recently been employed by Mr. Fairbanks and 50 or more other persons there on the reservation to represent them in regard to these cases that have arisen defining the rights of the persons who have been invited to enrollment as members of the White Earth Band of Indians. 2672 WHITE EAKkTH RESERVATION. Mr. Burcu. You might put that “ purification” of the roll, might you not? Mr. Henpverson. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorce. Did you know a man by the name of George BL. Sheridan ? Mr. Henperson. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorcz. Who is he? Mr. Henperson. He is an attorney at law in Minnesota. Mr. Grorcr. Have you been associated with him in a legal way at any time? : Mr. Henperson. Yes; I am now in the prosecution of what is known as the Mille Lacs case, pending in the Court of Claims, and | have a contract with Mr. Sheridan in connection with other Chip. pewa matters. Mr. Grorcr. Now, in this business enterprise of 1902, was Mr. Sheridan interested ? Mr. Henprrson. No; Mr. Sheridan at that time I did not know He had nothing to do with those Mille Lac cases—or did you refer to the land transactions, Mr. George? * Mr. Grorcr. Tell me something about them; maybe I do. Mr. Henperson. I have just been telling you about these inherited land cases. He had nothing to do with the first cases, as I was the sole attorney at-that time for the Mille Lac Indians. Mr. Georce. Now, what about the land cases? . Mr. Henperson. The purchase of those inherited lands, as I have just been relating, I had undertaken to engage in with other persons out there and retired from it because I found it impracticable. Mr. Georcz. I am very sorry I can not remember what part of the testimony or exactly the form that it appears in, but it is clear in my mind that Mr. Beaulieu said that he was associated, I think, with you and Mr. Fairbanks in some kind of an enterprise—commercial or otherwise—and I am very anxious to learn about that. Mr. Henperson. I wish you could turn to the record. Judge Burch, can you refresh my mind on that? Judge Burcu. I understood it was claims against the Govern- ment—whatever it was. Mr. Henverson. That is the only thing I know of that Beaulieu and I were interested in. Mr. Georce. Can you not throw any light on that? ‘You were associated as to these particular inherited lands—that is the only association ? Mr. Henverson. Outside of these tribal relations I speak of. The Cuarrman. Do you recall anything, Judge Burch? I under- stood, as nearly as I can recall—I do not know whether it was state- ment or testimony of Mr. Beaulieu—that he was connected with, I understood, Fairbanks and Sheridan and Mr. Henderson and pos- sibly others in looking up and bringing suits on Chippewa claims, just as Mr. Henderson states it; looking up claims against the Gov- ernment on the part of Chippewa Indians and bringing suits on them. Have you such an arrangement? Mr. Henpverson. Yes, sir. That is why, I have been testifying, I attended these tribal councils held while I was there. They are upon claims of the Chippewa tribes or bands against the United WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2673 States. These councils were held for the purpose of employing counsel to bring suit or obtain such legislation as necessary for the adjustment and settlement of these claims. Mr. Gerorer. Do they still exist? Have you any contracts of that sort with Beaulieu and others? Mr. Henperson. Yes; I have such contracts. Mr. Grorce. Would it be fair to ask you to let us see one of those contracts ? Mr. Henperson. I have no objection myself, Mr. George. Mr. Georce. All of them? Mr. Henverson. I think it would only be fair to ask my associate counsel whether there would be objection; certainly, on my part, there is none. Mr. Grorer. With whom did you make the contracts? Mr. Henverson. We made the contracts with the Indians. I speak of them as contracts in contemplation of law. They are not con- tracts, because, under the Federal statute, until they are approved by the Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and unless made in strict accordance with the Federal statutes, they are not binding obligations on the Indians, and nothing can be done under them, but they serve as a basis for beginning these proceed- ings for legislation and referring these matters to the Court of Claims. The CHarrmMan. They are agreements with the Indians that will be confirmed by the department ? Mr. Henpverson. Yes; if recognized by Congress; and if they are right Congress refers the cases to the Court of Claims. IT have never had a contract confirmed by the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I think I am right about that, am I not, Mr. Meritt—none of my contracts have been so approved ? Mr. Merirr. No, sir. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? The Cuairman, Yes. Mr. Merrrr. Mr. Henderson, did I understand you to say that you had tribal contracts with the Indians? Mr. Henperson. Yes, sir. Mr. Merrrr. What tribes? Mr. Henverson. With the Ojibways and the Sioux, and perhaps some other tribes. Mr. Merrrr. Did you get permission from the Secretary of the Interior to negotiate these contracts, in accordance with the regula- tions of the Department? Mr. Henperson. In the case of Ojibway contract; yes. Mr. Merrrr. Did you get permission of the Secretary of the In- terior to negotiate contracts with the Sioux? : ; Mr. Henverson. No, sir; I did not. I negotiated with the Sioux with the knowledge of the Secretary of the Interior. ; The Cuarman. With his knowledge, and the contract was dis- approved in a sénse by the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Menrrrr. Is it your understanding of the law that any contract that you may have is absolutely void with these Indians? Mr. Henverson. No, sir. ; ; Mr. Merirr. Mr. Chairman, may I call to his attention the pro- visions of sections 2103 and 2104 of the Revised Statutes? 2674 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Mr. Henverson. I-am perfectly familiar with them, Mr. Meritt. Mr. Mmrirr. Did you receive any money from the Indians under those contracts ? Mr. Henperson. No, sir; on the contrary, I have spent large sums of money upon which I never expect to receive a return. Mr. Merirr. Under section 2104, if you received any money would you not be committing a penal offense? Mr. Henverson. It would depend on the circumstances. Mr. Merrrr. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call your attention to section No. 2105, which says: The person so receiving such money contrary to the provisions of the two preceding sections, and his aiders and abettors, shall, in addition to the for- feiture of such sum, be punishable by imprisonment for not less than six months, and by a fine of not less than $1,000 * * *, I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, in procuring these contracts, Mr. Henderson has not only violated the regulations of the depart- ment, but, if he accepts any money, he is subject to this penalty under section 2105 of the Revised Statutes. The Cuatrman. If you thought there was any danger of Mr. Henderson being brought to account for that, it is hardly proper to ask him about it now. If he is violating the law, you should not ask him to testify about matters relating to the law. Of course, he is a lawyer and knows how to protect himself, but I am always par- ticular about saving a man’s constitutional rights. Mr. Merirr. I take it that he is able to protect himself in that regard, but I wanted to call the attention of the committee to that provision of the law. Mr. Henperson. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that ever since I got into these Indian matters, I have taken particular care to follow the Federal laws before doing anything for them under these con- tracts. None of this work of mine has been done without the ap- proval of Congress, where such approval is necessary. Have you finished with me as a witness, Mr. Chairman? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Henprerson. Have I the permission of the committee to gratu- itously put into the record remarks in contravention of some pre- eeding testimony ? The Cuarrman. You may. Mr. Henperson. I felt very much shocked at hearing the testi- mony of the witness who immediately preceded me, with reference to the Indian character The Cuairman. You speak of Mr. Baker? Mr. Henverson. Yes, sir; a man who made a most favorable im- pression upon me as a witness; who seemed to be honest through and through, if you can judge from outward appearances; but I was horrified almost to hear what he had to say about the Indian character, and I do not want to leave this stand without being granted the privilege of declaring that, after more than 10 years of most intimate association with Indians of many tribes, especially with the Chippewa Indians, that I think Mr. Baker is wholly wrong m his estimate of them, and that, so far from the Indian, and es- pecially the full-blood Indian, being a person of vile character, he is a man of the noblest natural constitution. I have never heard nobler sentiments expressed by any white man than I have heard WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2675 from a full-blooded Indian. I have never lain down at night to sleep with greater security, both as to my personal safety and as to the security of whatever little belongings I had with me, than I have been when I have lain down with the Indian in his wigwam at night, or when I have gone into his house to sleep, with every door and window open. Mr. Baker must surely have come in contact with the very unfa- vorable class of the particular tribe or band of Indians that he has been most closely associated with, and I want to protest here and now against the acceptance by people at large, who are not ac- quainted with the subject, of any such estimate as he has given of the Indian character. I do not think he can be aware himself of what noble and distinguished marks and characteristics some of the descendants of Indian people in this country have to-day. I doubt if he was aware of the fact that one of the men who braved the hard- ships of the journey with Peary to the North Pole was one of these very Chippewa Indians. He, perhaps, does not know that the—— The Coamrman. We are willing for you to make a statement to go into the record, Mr. Henderson, but not a speech. Mr. Henpverson. I do want to protest against any such going with- out the utterance from some one who knows the Indian character as well as he does, of views in opposition to his. The Carman. Mr. Meritt, will you please bring with you’ to- morrow the council proceedings and the agreement entered into in 1902 with the Mille Lac Indians by Mr. McGoffin? , Mr. Merirr. Yes, sir. The Cuarmman. And also the report of Mr. Michelet, dated about 1906, to the Secretary of the Interior, and also the report made by Mr. Dalby on the White Earth situation in the year 1907, and there is in the early numbers of our hearings, held last August, I think, a statement of the condition of the Chippewa fund then in the Treas- ury. If it is not too much trouble, I would like to have you find out whether that still continues to be correct; and, if not, to add to it a statement that would bring it up to this time. Mr. Merirr. We have a statement of the Chippewa funds brought down to a very recent date. The Cuarrman. You remember the one I speak of, in one of the early numbers of the hearings, about No. 4 or No. 5 of these hear- ings on the White Earth situation? Mr. Merrrr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Mr. Valentine or you furnished such a statement, and if there is a later one, we would like to have it; and if there is not a later one, we would like to have that brought down to date. I wish you would say to Dr. Murphy that we can use him in the morning. Mr. Merrrr. Very well, sir. Whereupon the committee, at 5.387 o’clock p. m., adjourned until 10.80 o’clock a. m. to-morrow, March 27, 19192. : SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, March 27, 1912. The subcommittee met at 2 o’clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. TESTIMONY OF DR. JOSEPH A. MURPHY. The witness was sworn by the chairman. The Cuairman. State your name. Dr. Murruy. Joseph A. Murphy. The Cuarrman. You reside in the city of Washington? Dr. Murpny. Well, I am mostly out in the Indian field—in the field work. My home is in Denver. The Cuarrman. Where is your home? Dr. Murpuy. Denver, Colo., where I have my headquarters. | The Cuarrman. You are a physician and surgeon by profession? Dr. Mureny. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Where did you make your professional studies? Dr. Mureuy. In the George Washington University in the Dis- trict of Columbia. The Cuarrman. How long have you been admitted to practice? Dr. Murpny. Since 1905. The Caarrman. Have you been in the general practice of your profession ? Dr. Murruy. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. Are you now engaged in a general practice? _ Dr. Murpuy. My work is medical supervisor in the Indian Serv- ice, and I have charge of the medical work in that department. The Cuatrman. Well, when I asked you if you were engaged in the general practice of your profession, I meant more particularly whether you have private patients? Dr. Mureuy. Not now. The Cuarrman. Or whether you have practiced in the ordinary sense of that term? Dr. Murrny. I had a private practice in the city of Washington here until the time I entered the Indian Service. The Cuairman. When did you enter the Indian Service? Dr. Murruy. About three and a half years ago. 2676 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2677 The Cuatrman. Had you theretofore been in the Government serv- ice in any capacity ? Dr. Murpuy. No, sir. The CHarrman. In what capacity did you enter the Indian Service ? Dr. Murry. As medical supervisor, my present postion. The Cuarrman. Now, what are the duties of the medical super- visor in the Indian Office? / Dr. Murpuy. My duties are the direction of the medical work in the service. They are not defined, because I am the first one who has ever done any such work in the Indian Service. There was no or- ganization of the medical work under the direction of a physician up to the time I entered the service. The Cuairman. Then the position you hold was created for thi: first time at the time that you took the position? Dr. Morpuy. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And were your headquarters then established at Denver ? Dr. Mureuy. Not until a little over a year ago—about a year and a half ago I started to open headquarters in Denver. The Cuarrman. Are the medical men who are in the Government service on the various reservations in any way subject to your orders or directions? Dr. Murry. They are not directly, except my immediate field men. They are subject to my directions, but they are also subject to the directions of the office, through the superintendents. The Caairman. You speak of your immediate field men. Explain what you mean by that. Dr. Murpny. We have four physicians who travel under my di- rections, doing special tuberculosis and trachoma work; also two traveling nurses. These constitute my field force, who are under my immediate direction. The Cuairman. Four in all. Dr. Mureuy. Four physicians and two nurses. The Cuairman. And you determine what particular reservations they shall go to and work on? Dr. Morrny. Yes, sir. The Cuartrman. Do the local reservation doctors report to you or direct to the bureau ? Dr. Mureuy. They report to their superintendents, and their re- ports are submitted to the Indian Office. The Cuarrman. That is, they report to the head of the reservation. whom we usually call the “agent” ? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. He is now known as “ superintendent ”? Dr. Murruy. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Are you furnished with copies of their reports? Dr. Murrny. I only get those reports when I come into Washing- ton or send for them, and I get into Washington about three times a year, probably. The Cuatrman. Then the medical arm of the bureau is not a complete organization in itself? Dr. Murpny. No; the organization is just simply in the process of formation, you might say, as far as the medical work is concerned. NX 2678 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. The Cuatrman. And what is there in the bureau itself, in the Indian Office here, for taking care of purely medical matters and health conditions on the reservations ? Dr. Murruy. There is a health section in the Indian Office, under the Education Division, or placed in the Education Division. This’ health section consists of one physician. The Cuatrman. Who is he? Dr. Murrpny. Dr. Russell, at the present date. The Cuarrman. What is your relation to him in the organization of the bureau work? Dr. Murpuy. He looks after health matters in Washington, and you might say tries to put through everything that I report from the field. If I make a report saying that certain things are needed in the field, he looks after the business of getting it through the office, and also answers all correspondence on medical subjects. In other words, he is my assistant in the Indian Office. The Cuarrman. He is the administrative end of the medical arm of the service? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Does he go into the field at all? Dr. Mureny. No, sir; he does not; although he has had nine years’ experience as a field physician in regular agency work. The Cuairman. How is his arm or section of the bureau work equipped? In other words, has he sufficient help or force to prop- erly look after the work of which he is in charge? Dr. Murpuy. He really needs more assistance, in order that he can get more opportunity to take his mind from too much clerical work and details. We need a larger medical force in order to do the work that we have. ; The Cuarrman. Are you, from your office in Denver, in touch with the health conditions or medical conditions on all the reservations, or are you in touch only with those to which your attention is spe- cially called ? Dr. Murruy. I am not constantly in touch with the health condi- tions on all the reservations, because of the fact that the reports from the individual physicians do not come in to me. As I stated, the reports that are made from the regular service physicians go into the Indian Office; but I am in touch to a certain extent from my own investigations and from the reports of my immediate field men. I do not stay in Denver only during the time that my clerical work absolutely demands my presence there. The Cuamman. Apart from your field men and nurses, what office force have you—what clerical assistants, if any ? Dr. Murry. The office of the chief supervisor is also in Denver, so that I have the use of his stenographer, who looks after the for- senting of reports from my field men and mail through the Denver office. The Cuatrman. Then, you have no clerical assistants of your own? Dr. Murruy. None at all. The Cuarrman. What is your salary? Dr. Murrxy. $3,000 and a per diem of $3. The Cuarirman. For subsistence ? Dr. Murruy. Subsistence. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2679 The Cuairman. And I suppose, of course, traveling expenses when you travel ? Dr. Murruy. When I travel. The Cuarrman. The actual expenses? Dr. Murruy. Actual expenses, except subsistence. The Cuarrman. To what extent do you take a part in the treat- ment of particular diseases on the reservations or consult with the local physicians in that regard ? Dr. Murruy. In my work of medical inspection I examine all of the pupils of the various Indian schools which I visit and give cer- tain directions in regard to the treatment of cases, especially cases of tuberculosis and trachoma, the two diseases that have claimed most. of my attention. As far as actual treatment is concerned, I have not taken a great deal of part in the actual treatment of cases. I do not remain long enough in one reservation, although I do occasionally operate for trachoma where the physicians have not been familiar with the operation; but that has been only occasionally. The Cuatrman. In your judgment, are the reservations properly supplied with doctors at this time? sr Morpuy. No, sir; I do not think they are—reservations nor schools. The Cuamman. Could you give us a résumé of the conditions in that regard as to any defect in the existing conditions—what there is and what there should be? Dr. Mureny. We have a great many comparatively small places, Mr. Graham, where there are sometimes only a few Indians to be attended. A great many of these places are supplied by contract physicians, who only give a very short portion of their time to the Indian work. We have in the service 52 contract physicians, whose compensa- tion yearly averages $575; and in addition to those we have 86 regu- lar physicians, who devote their entire time to the Indian work. Their compensation averages $1,168 per annum. I do not. consider that the money paid to physicians in the Indian service is sufficient to command good physicians to do the work that we are required te do, and I do not believe that the employment of contract physicians at the large number of places is at all advisable. We ought to have more physicians at better salaries, in order that the work that we have to do might be accomplished. The Cuatrman. Explain a little more fully what you mean by “ contract physicians ” and the nature of the contracts? Dr. Murry. Contract physicians are physicians in private prac- lice who devote, you might say, their entire time to private practice and agree to make one or more visits a week in Indian work. The Cuarmman. Are those visits visits to patients or are they visits of inspection ? : Dr. Murpuy. They are ordinarily visits to patients, rather than inspection. It is very difficult for us to control the trachoma situa- tion, for instance, at any given place through the use of the contract physician, whose time is simply taken up with a private practice und who only expects to go when called to some ill patient. The Cuamman. The contract physicians, I suppose, are employed only on the reservations which are considered too small to have vegular physicians? 2680 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murpnuy. At those places and at schools where the attendance ie small. The Cratrman. Have you thought out and worked out a scheme which you think ought to be adopted for looking after the health of the Indians on the reservations ? Dr. Murrny. The plan that we have at present has contemplated an educational scheme to a greater extent than any other. The pre: vention of disease is the object aimed at; and since the Indians are so ignorant, you might say, of the laws of sanitation and their dis- eases are caused so extensively by their disregard of these laws, we feel that a broad system of education is a solution of the problem. The Cuairman. How is this education to be given, according to the scheme? Dr. Morpuy. We have started out on a small scale in the trachoma and tuberculosis work. We have regular physicians stationed at agencies. Those physicians are not specialists, and not necessarily competent to treat eye diseases unless given special instructions; but trachoma is a disease which can be readily handled by the average practitioner after he gets a little special instruction, so that the tra- ehoma specialists who are employed in the field are sent to each in- dividual agency and school to work with the physician, operate on the trachoma cases, teach the medical physician how to continue to operate, and continue the after treatment; and their instructions are to remain at any particular place until they feel that the local phy- sician is competent to handle the local trachoma situation. That has been the scheme so far as trachoma is concerned. The Cuairman. What is the salary usually paid to local physicians on the reservations? Dr. Murruy. The average, I stated, was $1,168. The Cuarrman. What are the extremes? Dr. Murpny. The largest salary paid to a regular physician in the Indian Service at a reservation is $1,600. There is only one of those salaries, Mr. Graham. The Cuairman. Are those doctors bound under their contracts or their employment to devote all their time to the Indians, or may they have individual patients—pay patients—outside? Dr. Murrny. The majority of the physicians have no practice on the outside—regular physicians, I refer to. They may occasionally have a private patient, when called to some one in the immediate vicinity, but their instructions are that they are not to engage in private practice or to attend other patients if it interferes in any way with regular Indian work. _ The Cuairman. And their Indian work includes the medical atten- tion necessary for all enrolled Indians, whether they be full bloods or mixed bloods or near whites or whatever they may be? Dr. Murry. Not only that, but the white employees in the Indian Service they attend free. The Cuatrman. Do you know what the fact has been as to capable and desirable men remaining in the service? Dr. Murry. The men that are most desirable do not remain. We get, as a rule, at the present time, young physicians who want to make a stake in order to start in practice; ead if they are worth anything they will get out as soon as they can get a little money ahead. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2681 The Cuarrman. Have the reservation doctors any additional in- come or receipts other than salary? Are they allowed expenses? Dr. Moureny. As a general rule, I would say no. The physicians occasionally, where they have to take trips involving their remain- ing away from their stations, their posts—trips on the railroad—or where they have to hire a team, are allowed expenses; but with that exception they are not given any additional remuneration. The Cuarrman. Are they allowed horses or conveyances for local use—that is, for getting to such points as they could reasonably drive to from the agency? Dr. Murpny. As a general rule, yes. Sometimes they are given a team of their own to use; at other times they are compelled to use the superintendent’s team whenever necessary ; and at other times they are not given any teams at all, but compelled to depend on teams that the Indians might bring in to take them out on the reservations. The Cuairman. If any of the Indians on the reservations are men of means and desire to give them a gratuity or money for their serv- ices, are they allowed to accept it? Dr. Murpuy. There is no rule on this that I know of, Mr. Graham, but I think that that is a very rare occurrence. I do not believe I have ever heard of it. The Cuairman. They are not troubled much in that way? Dr. Murruy. No. The fact is, I have known very well-off mixed bloods, who have lots of money, expecting the agency physician to attend them and their families, and never considering that they are under’ any obligation whatever. The Cuarrman. Have you any suggestions to make as to how the service might be bettered in that way—that is, along the line of com- pensation ? Dr. Moreny. I think that the entrance salary of the physicians in the Indian service ought to be equal to the entrance salary in the Army or Navy or Marine Hospital Service. It seems to me that the work is just as important, and we require just as good men. Mr. Burcu. Do I undersand that these men have houses furnished them? I am not clear yet what, if any, assistance they have? The Cuarrman. I was just going to find out what emoluments, other than the salary, they receive from the Government, if any. Dr. Murray. They occasionally have a house given them—that is, the use of a house or the use of a room—and sometimes these houses are not very desirable. I know of one physician who had a family of three children and his wife living in a one-room house under very unfavorable circumstances. But, asa rule, they are given quarters. The Cuarrman. And if the Government has not any house for them to occupy, are they allowed the rent of a house to live in— a dwelling house? Dr. Murruy. I do not know of any case where physicians are allowed the rent of a house. I believe, as a rule, they are furnished with a room or with a house. The Cuarrman. Do they get any other emoluments? Dr. Murruy. No, sir. I might change that, Mr. Graham. I be- lieve, occasionally, the physicians at the schools where they are quar- tered in the school dormitories or school buildings are allowed light 73822°—H. Rep. 1336, 62-3, vol 2——74 2682 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. and heat, where that is a part of the plan, you understand. If there is electric light at the agency, they sometimes allow the use of the current, and if they happen to have a room in one of the dormitories their heat is supplied to them. The Cuarrman. Could you give us any information or statistics as to the experience of the reservation doctors and also as to the average length of time they serve as reservation doctors? Dr. Murruy. I could not give you any The Cuairman (interrupting). In other words, would the figures show that they are mostly young men who stay with you only a short time until they get a little age and experience, or otherwise? Dr. Mureuy. I could not give you any statistics as to that matter, although I think they could probably be produced in the Indian Office. My experience has been that we have them at all ages—physi- cians that have remained in for a long time; but, as I stated, the younger physicians are usually physicians who only come into the eee because they want to earn a little money, and sometimes they stick. The Cuairman. Now, in the hygienic work you spoke of awhile ago, I wish you would explain a little more fully how that is done and who it is intended to reach. You gave us the impression that you are going on the theory that prevention is better than cure and you are devoting a good deal of time to teaching the Indians the laws of health or hygiene. How is that worked out? Dr. Murpny. I simply elaborated the plan of the trachoma work, but in addition to that we have the educational work in both tubercu- losis and trachoma. One of the physicians who travels under my direction (Dr. Shoemaker) has with him a photographer and moving- picture operator, who catches photographs showing sanitary and in- sanitary conditions at reservations and schools and has these photo- graphs made up into lantern slides and gives lectures illustrated by a stereopticon and moving-picture machine to the schools and em- ployees in the Indian Service—that is, the school pupils and the employees at the schools—and to the reservation Indians. And in addition to that, we have sets of these stereopticon slides made up in the literature on tuberculosis and trachoma, with the printed litera- ture to send out to the schools and reservations over the country for the purpose of educating the Indians and the Indian Service em- ployees in the matter of the spread of disease and its prevention, as well as the cure of tuberculosis. The Cuarrman. Are you able to give us the results obtained from that work? Dr. Murpuy. I could give you the number of people reached by Dr. Shoemaker last year. He has been on a tour of the South and has, I would say, covered the States of California, the southern part of California, Arizona, and is at present in New Mexico, and he has visited all the reservations in both sections and given these lectures. In addition to that I have taken with me myself, in my inspection work, sets of these stereopticon slides and given illustrated lectures to the Indians and to the school pupils all over the entire State of Wisconsin and the greater part of Minnesota, giving 11 lectures on the White Earth Reservation in the past two weeks. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2683 The Cuarmrman. The point I particularly wanted to reach by my question there was the result of the effect of those lectures on those who heard them. Did it affect any improvement in their way of liv- ing; and if so, how much? Dr. Murpuy. That would be very difficult to state, Mr. Graham. I would say that as far as I have been able to observe the lectures and pictures have made a deep impression on the minds of those who listened to them, and I believe that a great many of the Indians will be benefited by them and receive them in a proper spirit. How much good a lecture will do can not very readily be estimated, but in my opinion the older Indian can not be reached in a better way than through the use of pictures and lectures—illustrated lectures given in this way. The Cuarrman. Do they attend those lectures pretty well? I mean the older Indians, those above school age? Dr. Murruy. Yes; they do. I have had no trouble having packed houses. The only trouble I have experienced has been that I have not had an opportunity to get large enough places for them to col- lect in order to give the benefit of the lecture to everyone. In fact, I gave three or four lectures there at White Earth in order to reach the Indians, so that there could be as many as possible to get the benefit of it. Mr. Grorer. Do they appreciate the nature of the lecture, or do they come simply because it is a show? Dr. Mureuy. My impression has been that a good many appreciate the nature of the lecture after they have come there. I think that the lectures have been advertised more as a show in order to get them in, and then after they get in they have stayed. The CHarrman. at do your slides show? Do they show pic- torial life and that sort of thing? Dr. Mureuy. I have my slides here, and I wish that I could have the opportunity to show vou the nature of the pictures. I brought them on to Washington with me. They show, in as simple a way as possible, the explanation of the existence of tuberculosis in the body, how it affects the body, and all of the illustrations or a greater part of the illustrations are taken from diseased Indians themselves and the Indian conditions. The pictures show the method through which tuberculosis is spread, taken from the Indian home itself, and they show the insanitary Indian homes, and then, in contrast to them, we have the sanitary Indian homes. And we will show quite a series of pictures, showing bad conditions, and then contrast that by showing a series of pictures of good conditions. The Cuarrman. Do the women attend the lectures? Dr. Murpuy. Women and children. I have talked to an Indian audience where at least six Indian babies were hollering at once, and my voice has gotten pretty tired sometimes after six or seven nights. The Cuatrman. Of course. you could only reach those who speak English, I suppose. Dr. Murpuy. No; where a large portion is mixed bloods we use an interpreter, and they sit there quietly and very attentively through a long lecture that way. Mr. Burcu. You mean the full bloods? Dr. Mureuy. The full bloods. Mr. Burcu. You said the “ mixed ” bloods. 2684 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murrey. I meant the full bloods. ; s The Cuarrman. Have you any pictorial way of illustrating the benefit of cleanliness and the healthfulness of it? Dr. Murrpuy. We show the pictures of clean kitchens and the clean preparation of food, and so on, and explain it. The method of illus- trating the advantage of cleanliness is largely through the picture as an object, and the explanation accompanying it. The Carman. You appeal to the artistic sense rather than the others? Dr. Mureny. Well, we try to explain the whole philosophy of the thing, if you could call it such. The Cuairman. That is, by proper explanation ¢ Dr. Murpuy. Yes. The CHarrman. But you have no pictorial device or slide, have you, which carries to them in a pictorial way the benefit of cleanli- ness as compared with filthiness? Dr. Murruy. Well, we have some pictures of clean Indian homes; and I must say that the Indians who appear in these pictures are markedly in contrast and apparent health to those who are in the other scenes. The Cuarrman. That is true; but, as I said, that appeals to the artistic sense rather than to the hygienic question. But of course you know the thought in my mind, that the lack of cleanliness is one of the best means of producing and conveying disease? Dr. Moureny. Yes. The Cuarrman. Now, I do not myself know how it could be done, but I did not know but what you had found a way by which that thought could be conveyed in a picture, apart from the artistic side of it—the better look they appeal to the eye of a cleanly as against an uncleanly house? Dr. Murpuy. Well, I think, Mr. Graham, the contrast, together with the explanation, is as vivid a way as it can be represented. The Cuairman. Now, how long has this work been in vogue? Dr. Murrny. We started to get the photographs for this work about two years ago; I can not say the exact date. Mr. Graham. The Cuarrman. Not long enough, then, to have produced appar- ent results yet? Dr. Morrny. Saill, I think the results are apparent, that there has peed a big awakening in the localities where these pictures have been shown. The Cuarrman. Could you say that it has induced the Indians to keep their homes cleaner and keep their persons cleaner, and to in- vest in more soap than before? Dr. Morrny. I can not say that, Mr. Graham, because I can not prove it. All we can do is to attempt to have them understand these things and try to persuade them to do it; and in my experience as to the real result (that is, the final result) as to the lectures I have given, I did not wait to see in a great many cases. The Cuairman. You know a great many tests are made as to the height of the advancement of any particular people in civilization. Some would say their literature is the best test, and some would say their architecture; others, I think, with a great deal of reason, would say the amount of soap they consume. The Indians do not invest largely in soap, do they? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2685 Dr. Murruy. Well, I do not believe they do, to the extent that they should. I know that after my lectures—I have a picture show- ing an Indian woman airing her bedding in the sunlight and fresh air, and I know I have gone through a reservation following a lecture of mine and seen quite a number of Indian bedclothes out to air. Whether that was the result of my lecture or not I do not know. The Cuarrman. Well, it is fair to assume that it was a result of yours, or some other one. Passing from that, now, how many of the larger reservations have you been on, personally ? Dr. Moreuy. Well, I might say, by pointing to the map, that I have been over this section [indicating on map], and this section [indicating on map], and two or three places up there [indicating on map]. The Caarrman. That does not mean anything, Doctor, other than to those who are looking at the map. When you say “ this section,” tell what you mean. Dr. Mureuy. Well, that shows to the committee. The Cuairman. You pointed to certain places on the map. Will you give the names of those places, so we may have a record of it? Dr. Murruy. All of the reservations in Arizona, New Mexico, and Oklahoma, with the exception of the Five Civilized Tribes, the schools in Michigan, all of the schools on reservations in Wisconsin, and the schools on reservations in Minnesota on a line with and north of the White Earth Reservation. In addition to that, one of the reservations in Montana, one in Washington, and two or three along the Pacific coast. The Cuarrman. And that visiting has been done within what time? Dr. Murpuy. Within the past three and a half years. The Cuatrman. When you took charge of the office or position you are in, what diseases did you find prevalent on the reservations? Dr. Murrny. Tuberculosis was the most prevalent disease, and I had not started to make medical inspections in the schools. I had not gone to but two schools before I discovered that trachoma was very prevalent; abd from that time on we have had a campaign against trachoma. So that these two diseases are the most frequent, serious, contagious diseases we have had to deal with among the Indians. The Cuarrmman. Can you give any information in a historical way as to them? For instance, when did trachoma first appear on any of the reservations? Dr. Mureuy. My opinion is that trachoma has been present among the Indians for a long time. The Cuarrman. Well, do you know whether it is an indigenous, or is it an imported disease? Dr. Murpuy. I did not catch the first word. The Caatrman. Is it an American disease, or has it been imported to America ? Dr. Murpny. That would be very difficult to say, Mr. Graham, because we find trachoma among some very isolated tribes, and it almost seems to be endemic in those localities among the Indians. I hardly believe that trachoma has been introduced in the United States and spread among the Indians by importations. But the 2686 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. prevalence of trachoma in some instances is peculiar: Certain sec- tions will be absolutely free of trachoma and others will be very heavily affected in places where the local conditions are practically the same, and hygienic conditions are the same. The Cuatrman. And climatic? Dr. Murpnuy. And climatic conditions are the same. The Cuarrman. Well, have they anything to do with it? Dr. Murruy. To illustrate, now, for instance, in the White Earth Reservation: The nonremoved Mille Lac Indians, of which there are 200 living on the old Mille Lac Reservation, have no evidence of trachoma among them, as shown by the statistics among the older people; and an examination of all of these Indians, at the time of their taking, showed no evidence of trachoma. On the other hand, the White Earth Indians show an average of about 30 per cent of trachoma, and the Mille Lac Indians who were removed to the reser- vation show quite a large percentage of trachoma, especially among the children. Trachoma seems to spread only very slowly by the intimate contact of the home, the use of common towels and articles of that sort—toilet articles—so that a reservation separated from an- other by a few miles might not become infected except through inti- mate visiting. Now, we find those conditions all over the United States—in the pueblos where there is a large percentage of trachoma in one pueblo, and 40 miles away there might be a large pueblo with no trachoma, even. The CuHairman. Is it probable that handshaking could serve to convey the disease—to communicate it? Dr. Murrxy. I think that where an Indian had trachoma in an acute stage, with a secretive condition of the eye, and he had wiped his finger in his eye—I think that if he shook hands with an unin- fected person and that uninfected person put his finger in his eye, he could become infected in that way. The Cuairman. He could become infected ? Dr. Murruy. Yes, sir. The CuarrMan. Is there any difference in the existence of the dis- ease in the northern latitudes and in the southern latitudes? Is it as common in Arizona and New Mexico and southern California as it is in Minnesota or Wisconsin or Montana? Dr. Murruy. Our general impression has been that there is a higher percentage of trachoma in the south, largely, probably, be- eause our investigation really has been confined almost entirely to the south; and yet we have found in our investigation in the north, recent investigations, that there is anywhere up to 80 per cent of the Indians examined in Minnesota and Wisconsin and in the Dakotas who have trachoma. The percentages are considerably higher, though (reported considerably higher), in the Southern States. The Cuarrman. Well, the fact that some bands are practically free from it, such as the Mille Lacs who did not move from the old Mille Lacs Reservation, is not, in your judgment, attributable to anything in them; it is not a question of merely physical resistance, is it? Dr. Mureny. No; I think that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. I think it is a question of the introduction of the infec- tion. The Mille Lacs Indians are living in the most insanitary con- WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2687 ditions that would favor the spread of trachoma immediately after it was introduced. The Cuarrman. Whereas the Mille Lacs who have moved to the - White Earth either on the Tulaby or Elbow Lake have natural con- ditions which are very favorable for them—or are you familiar with their location ? Dr. Mureny. Yes; I am familiar with them and have a picture showing those. I think they have a better opportunity to spread trachoma there than in their own homes. The Cuarirman. They are directly on the banks of a fresh water lake which is not infected in any way. The water seems to be pure and uncontaminated, the ground they occupy is high and dry and rises rapidly from the shore of the lake and would seem to be, from the hygienic point of view, an ideal location, and the rains are suffi- cient, on the declivity on which they live, to carry diseased matter away. Dr. Murpuy. I have a picture of that village here—two pictures, showing that [producing pictures]. I think that that is a matter of the introduction of the infection there, Mr. Graham. It is the children of the Mille Lacs on the White Earth Reservation who show evidence of trachoma. The Cuairman. I think the picture of the Elbow Lake settlement, known, I take it, as Wah-we-yea-cumig—that is the post-office name, I believe, after the chief there—shows that the houses are quite close together. Do you think that is a wise scheme under the circum- stances, either with reference to danger from fire or communicability of disease? Dr. Murruy. It seems to me it would be a much better condition if they were not crowded together as they are. The sanitary condi- tions as the village appears at the present date—-a good deal of refuse being thrown out, surrounding the houses; and with the melting of the snows now, it will not make for health conditions at this time. The Cuatrman. The declivity is greater than it is represented in the picture, but of course that is due to the point of view from which it is taken; but the declivity is a very steep one from the lake um to the top of the bluff, probably 250 to 350 feet above the lake evel. ; Dr. Murruy. Well, the houses are placed along in rows, something like shown there. The Cuarrman. About midway between the water level and the top of the bluff? Dr. Murpuy. Yes; there is a great deal of refuse being thrown around each one of those houses. The Crarrman. That is true, literally. ; Dr. Mureuy. So that with the melting of the snows and carrying down of the refuse it is likely to settle down in the lower town, and that is not a very favorable situation. The CHarrman. Well, coming back to this disease—trachoma— has it been studied with great care by students of diseases? Dr. Mourruy. I would say that trachoma has been studied with a great deal of care, but that the real infecting agent has not yet been positively identified. The Cuarrman. It is considered a germ disease, I suppose? 2688 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murpry. It is considered a germ disease, but it is one of the diseases where the specific germ has not yet been determined. The Cuamrman. How long does it take the disease to develop after infection; do you know? ‘That is, how long after infection does the presence a the disease become manifested ? Dr. Murruy. I can only say that the examinations of school chil- dren, who have appeared normal several months before, occasionally show evidence ae the disease on a second examination. How long previous to the appearance of the disease in the eyelids the infection took place it would be impossible to say. You see, we can not make an experiment as to the actual length of the incubation stage. The Cuarrman. I did not know but that you had imposed on the guinea pig again and infected him with the germ, whatever it is, and watched to see the development of the disease. Or do you know whether it is infectious to the lower animals? Dr. Mureny. I am not familiar with particular experiments which have been made in the spread of trachoma among the lower animals; and, in fact, my experience with trachoma has largely been the study of the disease as it appears among the Indians. The time that we have to devote to scientific work is very limited, as you can see. The Cuarrman. I can well believe that. Dr. Murry. And we have no laboratories in our service that would be available for those experiments. The Marine Hospital Service has ample facilities for making studies of this disease, and I believe they have. . The Cuairman. Do you know to what extent this disease pre- vails in the Army or the Navy, or whether it has appeared in either of those services? Dr. Murruy. My impression is that there is not very much pee armong the soldiers or sailors in the United States Army or Navy. The Cuarrman. Our information is that in its early stages it is easily amenable to treatment. Is that right, as you understand it? Dr. Murpuy. Why, that is the time when the disease can be cured and the after results prevented. The disease in itself is not productive of very much discomfort or very many subjective symp- toms until the serious sequela begin to manifest themselves. The Cuairman. Doctor, would you mind giving us a brief de- scription of the progress of the disease from the time it becomes first noticeable ? Dr. Murpuy. Trachoma is a disease that is essentially chronic in its nature. It starts very insidiously, with a slight roughness and a ee of granules on the conjunctiva or mucous membrane of the eyelids. The Cuairman. Both lids? Dr. Murpry. Sometimes the lower and sometimes the upper, and sometimes only in one eye. It usually extends from one lid to the other, but not always from one eye to the other until at the later stage. It does not give rise to many subjective symptoms—probably a little itching of the eye or feeling of roughness—a feeling like that when a little sand gets into the eye—is the only symptom that the patient notices for a time, but it may at any time become acute and there may be suppuration and formation of pus and secretions which WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2689 will cause considerable discomfort. The little granules or globules which are characteristic of the disease gradually form on both lids up to the fully developed state, and we have a condition that looks like ener little rounded projections or papille, covering the en- tire lid. The Cuairman. Now, what shape are they when removed? Are they globular or pyramidal, or what is their shape? Dr. Murpxuy. Well, I suppose I could best describe it. If you put a little bean or bean-shaped material under a cover it would produce a little projection—a very minute projection. The Cuatrman. They form under the membrane, do they? Dr. Murpuy. They form in the membrane and cause a projection of these little lumps, and they increase the tissue at that particular point—the lymphatic tissue. The Cuatrman. And how close together do they form ? Dr. Murry. One right beside the other, and they are very small, don’t you see. Sometimes it looks almost like a velvet carpet or rough-grained beefsteak cut across the fibers. The Cuairman. As to their texture, how hard do they grow to be? Dr. Murpuy. Well, they do not get so very hard; they are com- paratively soft. That process goes on and the conjunctiva, or lining of the lid, thickens to a great extent and the eye itself is not able to be opened quite to the full extent. And during all that time, even, there may be no apparent trouble with the eye from an outsider’s point of view. Unless the lid is turned back, as I could illustrate, you can not see anything. ; The CHarrman. Does the progress of the disease interfere with the secretions ? Dr. Murrry. Not to any great extent. The Caarrman. The collection of tears, as we call it? Dr. Murpny. Not to any great extent. Mr. Grorcr. It is a most insidious growth? Dr. Mureuy. Yes; it is. That is the reason why there has been so much trachoma on the Indian reservations and among the Indians that has passed unrecognized, because the Indian would not come te the office to have his eyes treated until something very serious is the matter with them, and then it is too late. The Cuarrman. Pursue your description. Dr. Murruy. These follicles or little granules are gradually ab- sorbed and their place taken by scar tissue, and it is comparatively easy to tell whether a case has had trachoma or not by seeing scars on the lids. That is the natural progress of the disease—the gradual formation of follicles or granules and then their gradual decline, with the formation of scars on the inner side of the lid and thickening of the lid. As I say, at any time there may be consider- able redness and secretion—at any time during the course of the disease—but not necessarily so. The Cuairman. Tell us, before you leave it, the effect of the forma- tion of scar tissue on the conjunctiva. Dr. Mureuy. The granules themselves and the scars work on the cornea, especially the upper part of the cornea. The Cuarrman. There are no blood vessels in true scar tissue, are there? There can be no circulation in true scar tissue? 2690 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murruy. There is very little; it gradually contracts and be- eomes hard. The Cuairman. And there is no lubrication, of course ? Dr. Mureny. No. The Cuarrman. Are these hard surfaces against hard surfaces? Dr. Murruy. Those hard surfaces and contracted surfaces are pressing on the eyeball in that case, and the friction sometimes pro- duces irritation of the eyeball; and especially is this so as to the upper lid, which is in constant motion and winking The Cuarrman. That is the one that does the winking? Dr. Murruy (continuing). And that produces pannus. The Cuatrman. So that instead of permitting it to perform its function (that is, lubricating the eye) it cuts like a file and irritates the eyeball? Dr. Murruy. That is about the amount of it. Now, blood vessels will grow over the cornea and cause a hazy condition to develop, known as pannus, and that seriously interferes with the vision. Then, again, any other infection—eye infection—coming in the course of trachoma is intensified by it; and the Indians have a great deal other eye infections that I will describe later on, if you wish them. The Cuarrman. As I understand you, then, before leaving that, the movement of a rough lid over the eyeball rubs the cornea or outer covering of the ball of the eye and renders it less transparent ? Dr. Murrny. Yes, sir. _ The Cuatrman. In a healthy state it is almost completely trans- parent ? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. So that light passes through it into the pupil and back to the retina and optic nerve? = Dr. Murrny. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And this filing process causes pain, closing the lid, destroys the transparent character of the cornea, and renders it, first, brownish and finally entirely opaque? Dr. Murrny. Yes, sir. The Cuatrman. And prevents light from entering the eye and reaching the optic nerve? Dr. Murrny. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. And in that way causes blindness? Dr. Murruy. Now, there is a further development. Scar tissue always contracts and the contraction of the underside of the lid draws the eyelash down and in, so that in a severe case of trachoma, with the formation of the hard, thick scars, the eyelashes are fre- quently turned completely in, so that whenever the lid moves it rubs the eyelash against the cornea; and then very frequently the sight is destroyed, because there is a continual irritation which can never be overcome until the eye is operated on and the lid turned back, or unless the eyelashes are continually pulled out. This condition 1s known as entropion, and is one of the most common causes of blind- ness among the old Indians who have had trachoma. The Cxarrman. Well, when it reaches the last stage where the cornea is rendered less transparent or opaque no operation can give relief then, can it? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2691 Dr. Murpuy. If this opacity is of recent occurrence, operation and treatment will frequently cure it; but if it has been of any dura- tion, it is too late. The Cuarrman. What is the nature of the operation for removing the granules? Dr. Murruy. The operation is comparatively simple. The eye- lids are cocainized, or the patient is given a general anesthetic (he is usually put under cocaine) and the lids are turned back and either a Knapp’s or Noyes’s roller forceps is used to express the granules from the interior surface of the lid. The Cuarrman. What is it; pus that has formed in there? Dr. Murruy. It is not pus; it is new tissue. The Cuarrman. By “ expressing it,” you mean squeezing it out 4 Dr. Mourpuy. Squeezing it out. The granules are compressed and this material is squeezed out. A Now, not all of it probably is squeezed out, but some infection remains, and the granules continue to form after the operation is performed; and the operation is not complete in itself because it is impossible to use sufficient force to remove all of the infection and all of the new growth. It is intimately a part of the lid. So that, fol- lowing the operation, medication has to be applied to the eyelid to cause the absorption of what has not been expressed; and the most effective drug that has been used is copper sulphate or bluestone. That applied to the lid two or three times a week, possibly, and then gradually diminishing intervals, will gradually cause the absorp- tion of what has not been expressed by the operation. Mr. Grorcr. That is the burning process? Dr. Morrny. Just like putting fire in the eye. I have had it put in myself, because I thought I had trachoma, and I took a very severe course of it, and it was not an easy thing to stand. The Cuatrman. The difficulty you experienced in the successful treatment of the disease grows out of the Indian’s failure to comply with the instructions of the physician, does it not? Dr. Mureuy. That is one of the difficulties. The CyHarmman. In taking or applying medicine at regular periods? Dr. Mureny. It is very difficult to have the Indians or anyone else take that treatment for a condition that is giving him very little trouble and where the treatment involves manipulation of his eyelid and produces considerable pain. And this treatment is necessary and has to be frequent, and after the treatment the person is good for nothing for half an hour or so, or probably longer, the eye giving disagreeable sensations, and you can very readily see that it is not a very pleasant thing to have to go through. : The CHamman. On what one of the reservations that you have visited or know about is the portion or per cent of trachoma highest? Dr. Mureny. Well, I think it is as high on the Pawnee Reservation as anywhere else. The Cuarrman. In Oklahoma? The Cuarrman. What would the per cent be there? Dr. Murpuy. I have a series of percentages as reported by the Oklahoma men. The Cuarrman. If you do not recall, do not bother; because we will get all of that. 2692 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murruy. I do wish to make this statement, that the high per- centages of trachoma do not mean necessarily that there are a large number of severe cases of trachoma. Very light cases of trachoma are included in that percentage. Mr. Grorer. A light case can turn to a severe case if neglected ? Dr. Mureny. Yes, sir; but a good many of them do not seem to become as severe as typical cases that I have described. Mr. Gzorer. I wanted to bring out this point, that even light cases revent the incoming of immigrants to ports of entry of the United tates of America. Dr. Murry. Yes; that is true. The reason why I made the state- ment, Mr. George, was in order that you might not feel that the large percentage of trachoma was necessarily a large percentage of severe cases of trachoma. The Cuatrman. Putting the question in another way: On what reservation do you consider the disease worse at this time? Dr. Murpeny. Well, Mr. Graham, the percentages are so high on so many of the reservations that I hardly think that we can compare them. The Cuatrman. Name a few of those where it is worst. Dr. Murreuy. The reservation around Phoenix. The trachoma percentage is very high in the Pueblos, and the percentages of trachoma are very high in New Mexico. But, as I stated, in some there are practically none. And then, in Oklahoma, the percentages are high; on the Crow Reservation the percentage is high, and in a section (the Pine Point section) of the White Earth Reservation the percentage is very high—higher than it is on other parts of the reservation. The Caarrman. It is very bad on Grant Lake? Dr. Murrny. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. That is not very far from Pine Point? Mr. Grorcs. But I think at White Earth the papers submitted the other day showed a high percentage. Dr. Murrny. The percentages are high at a good many places. Mr. Gzorce. Our own observation was that the percentage was high at White Earth and these figures seem to confirm them. Dr. Murrny. Yes. The Cuarrman. To what extent are the white people in the vicinity of those reservations, or on the reservations, affected by the disease; do you know? Dr. Mureny. No; I have not made a practice of examining the white people, because our work is limited almost entirely to the Indians. The Cuarrman. Unless you hear incidentally. Dr. Murpny. Yes. But referring to the white employees at In- dian agencies, I would say that the proportion of inspection is not very great; and I will also say that the Catholic school at White Earth, that has a large percentage of mixed bloods (in fact, mostly mixed bloods) had a low percentage of trachoma. And at the day school at Duane or Porterville, where most of the children are really white or have a high proportion of white blood, the proportion of trachoma is very low—very low. The Cuarrman. How do you account for that? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2693 Dr. Moureny. I think that pure sanitary conditions have a great deal to do with the spread of trachoma. The Cuarrman. Greater cleanliness produces less trachoma? Dr. Moreny. I think so, and I think that is largely the exception among the Indians. Mr. Gzorcr. But, that an Indian, as an Indian, in comparison with a white, as a white, is not more subiect to this disease? Dr. Morpuy. I think not—only that they live under conditions that are not as sanitary as the average white. Mr. Grorcr. Well, change whites to Indians. The whites under these inferior conditions would be more subject to the disease? Dr. Murrxy. I think they would be fully as much so. I found trachoma in the Fairbanks family on the White Earth Reservation. Nearly every member of the Fairbanks family and the Beaulieu family have it, and they are enormous families. The Caarrman. The teacher at Pine Point (and I take pleasure in saying this in the record) is one of the best servants the Government has, so far as I have noticed, and so far as the good of the Indians is concerned, and he has had it three different times. That is Mr. Page. Mr. Grorcr. The doctor said he thought he had it too; I think they both said it. The Cuarrman. They got it and got rid of it, and got it again. Dr. Murpuy. They are very lucky to get rid of it, if they did. The Cuairman. Well, they thought they got rid of it. They may have been deceived. Dr. Mureny. That is one of the characteristics of trachoma, it does not yield very readily to treatment. The Cuairman. Judge Burch, I am taking more time than I in- tended to in a preliminary way. Will you ask the witness about the White Earth conditions or such other questions as you care to? Mr. Burcu. I will ask a few questions. Suppose, Doctor, for any reason a few of these Indians that are affected should visit any outside town like Detroit, Minn.; Fergus Falls, Minn.; or Minneapolis or St. Paul. Do you know of any way in which they could safeguard the general public from infection, or has any way been adopted, any precautions taken to that end, that you know of? Dr. Murpuy. Well, I know that there have been no precautions taken. Mr. Burcu. There have not been any? Dr. Murrry. There have been none; yes. It does not seem as if it were possible to take any precautions that would be effective for the prevention of the spread of trachoma by persons in the active or acute stage of the disease who come into intimate contact with others. It is largely, however, during the acute stage of the disease that trachoma is contagious and communicable. ; Mr. Burcu. Suppose in the ordinary course of legal business sub- peenas or any other legal process was served upon a number of people from the White Earth Reservation to attend court at Detroit, in a legal proceeding at Detroit or Fergus Falls, the seat of the United States court. Unless they took along separate towels, separate soap, and slept in carefully protected beds—that is, beds protected after their sleeping in them, carefully, from infection—would not they be likely to spread such trouble? 2694 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murpny. Undoubtedly the use of the roller towel in public places would spread trachoma. t Mr. Burcu. Which means any towel that is used by different per- sons? Dr. Murruy. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How about sheets? Dr. Murrny. I think that sheets could communicate the disease also, if they were used in common, or pillowcases. Mr. Burcu. Or used by any persons after they had been used. by these persons ? Dr. Murruy. Yes; especially after the acute stage of the disease with suppuration in the eye. Mr. Burcu. How about pillowcases or pillows? Dr. Murreuy. They could also spread the disease. Mr. Burcu. How about court seats? Suppose, for instance, a person in pain should wipe their eyes and then put their hands on the upholstered portion of the court seats? Dr. Mureuy. I think that would be a method of spreading tra- choma, if the secretions from the eye were deposited on these seats. T have always made it a rule to advise employees of the Indian schools, where there was considerable trachoma, not to rub their eyes with their hands, unless just immediately previous they had washed them with soap and water, because in the handling of books or the handling of anything by one who has trachoma the secretion of trachoma from the eye may immediately be communicated to the hands—the infection. The only weak point about the matter is that the germ that causes trachoma has not been isolated, and we do not know how long it would live under conditions of that sort. Mr. Burcu. In other words, you have made no tests to see how long it is possible that such contagion would withstand the natural effects of the atmosphere and eliminate it ? Dr. Murry. We have not in the Indian Service; no, sir. Mr. Burcu. You have so much trouble to take care of the thing itself that you have no time to study the general results of it? Dr. Mcureny. We have not had the facilities for making the experi- ments necessary. Mr. Georcr. May I just ask a question right in there? Mr. Burcu. Oh, yes; I am not perturbed at all by interruptions. Mr. Grorer. The Government doctors stand on the margin of the country to keep this trachoma from getting in from abroad ? Dr. Murrny. Yes, sir. Mr. Grorer. Here right in the center of the United States is a great colony of trachoma patients, if you may say that, that seem to be in a state of neglect. Now, if it is dangerous to allow anybody coming in from the Mediterranean, for instance, with even a slight case of trachoma, what is the public danger from the White Earth Reservation, where so many of these people have this disease in every kind of stage? Is there any danger to the country of the spread of this disease through the country ? Dr. Murruy. I think the danger is to people who come into inti- mate contact with the Indians, because, in my opinion, trachoma is only very slowly spread. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2695 Mr. Gzorce. But, still, it would go through Minnesota pretty quickly, would it not, relatively, from the use of moneys, from the use of books, from the use of towels, or things of that sort? Dr. Murpuy. There is a possibility of it doing so; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Doctor, do you know whether in any of these high- percentage reservations the Government has taken pains to furnish these Indians with a supply of towels, of castile soap, or any other disinfectant with instructions to make use of them ? Dr. Mourreuy. A part of the work under the health section has been the direction of field matrons for the purpose of improving sanitary conditions in the homes; and some of these field matrons are fur- nished with very limited supplies. I would say that the quantity is almost negligible. Mr. Burcu. Grossly inadequate? Dr. Murreuy. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Have the doctors under your supervision on the White Earth Reservation, for instance (for I suppose I would be naturally confined to them), made calls, so far as you know, or been instructed to make calls for such supplies? Dr. Murpuy. I think that they have not. I do not know as any of them have furnished soap or towels to the Indians. Mr. Burcu. Speaking of these close relationships in the matter of residence, house calls by each other, what would you say would be an ideal distance of house to house or of yard to yard, having ref- erence to keeping them reasonably well apart and yet in such close relationship of residence that the physician could readily get to them—say, yards 20 rods wide and 40 rods long, to enable houses te he put up on each of such lots and give a reasonable distance between them. That would be 5-acre tracts of land. Dr. Murpry. I should think that would be a. reasonable distance if there were sanitary regulations preventing or rather enforcing the proper disposal of refuse and excreta, and an adequate water supply that would not be contaminated. Mr. Burcu. Well, now, I will come back to the White Earth and the possibility of contagion: Is it not true, in your opinion, or is it true (I will put the question either way) that the only saving grace of the white people along the lines of railroads, within reasonable proximity to the White Earth Reservation, is the fact that these Indians seldom travel beyond the line of the reservation? Is that the saving grace? If they were travelers like the ordinary white people, would it not be dangerous and spread quite rapidly? Dr: Mureuy. There is no doubt that trachoma would spread much more readily if the Indians came into very intimate contact with the whites and traveled more extensively. Mr. Burcu. Their failure to do so operates, then, as if it were a cordon of soldiers or guards or policemen ? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. But what is the effect of this possibility of contagion if these Indians are subjected to the ordinary exigencies or require- ments of civic life, such as attendance on court at the county seat and at a distance, the propriety of their taking part in religious con- ventions or their missionaries, or in company of their missionaries, and so forth? Does it not have a tendency to exclude them almost from the civilizing influences and requirements? 2696 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Mureuy. You mean does it, or should it, or would it? Mr. Burcu. Would it? Does it not keep them from active and erdinary participation in civic life? Dr. Murpuy. It does not keep them from it, because there is no regulation to prevent them from taking part in the exercises that you refer to. ; Mr. Burcu. No; but with proper sanitary regulations, would it not—a requirement? Well, let me put an example to you: Suppose a United States subpcena was issued for a hundred persons to come from the White Earth Reservation, or parts of it, to Fergus Falls, a distance of 100 miles or more, by different railroads, to attend upon the United States court there. Now, they are required to obey that mandate or they are brought by force. Now, is not that a dangerous- proceeding to the health and welfare of all white people and, in fact, the Indians (the kinds of people at Fergus Falls) and all the way they travel between ? Dr. Mureuy. It is if the Indian himself does not take proper precautions. I believe the Indians or any other person who had trachoma could attend court safely and not spread the disease if he took the precautions to prevent its spread. Dr. Murrsy. Suppose he did not take them or was not required to do it? Dr. Murruy. Then it would be a danger to the people who came m contact with him, unless these people took precautions to prevent its spread. I feel it is perfectly possible for persons to mingle with others who have trachoma and not contract it themselves. Mr. Burcu. If constantly on guard? Dr. Murrny. I stated at one time I thought I had trachoma; but { do not feel as if I am in constant danger of contracting trachoma, although I am around a good deal of it every day, because I take precautions that I feel are sufficient to prevent my taking it. Mr. Burcu. Well, would you say or would you not say that the presence of the disorder or malady on the White Earth Reservation is a menace to the welfare of Minnesota, or at least.to the northern half of Minnesota ? / Dr. Murruy. I think there is danger of the spread of trachoma to those who come into intimate contact with the Indians who have it in the acute stage; but I believe that the spread of the disease under those circumstances would be comparatively slow, so that I would not state that it was a menace to the entire State. Mr. Burcu. No; I spoke of the northern half of the State, the part north of St. Paul and Minneapolis. Well, you have not stated anything about tuberculosis. Did you find any? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. How large a percentage is there of tuberculosis on the White Earth Reservation ? Dr. Mureny. As a result of the examination of the schools I found there was 9.4 per cent of tubercular lesion of the lungs among the pupils of those schools, and 13.8 of tubercular glands. Mr. Burcu. I do not know that I am sufficiently well versed in tuberculin affairs to make any distinction. Will you put that plainly to the persons who are not supposed to understand ? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2697 The Cuarrman. I suppose the difference between them is that one is ordinarily called consumption of the lungs, and the other is ordi- narily called scrofula, Dr. Murrny. Yes. Tuberculosis resides in the lung tissues, the glands, the bones, the intestines, and the throat, and might cause dis- ease and destruction of the tissue at any place where they remain and.continue to grow; but the lungs are the most common seat of lodgment, and the glands are a very frequent seat of lodgment. I have a picture taken on the White Earth Reservation showing six people in one house, all of whom had tuberculosis of the glands. The Cuainman. Is it true that tuberculosis of the glands is usually followed by tuberculosis of the lungs? Dr, Murrxuy. Not necessarily so. : is CHairmMan. Not necessarily so, but does it not increase the risk ? Dr. Murrey. I find a large number of older Indians who have scars of tubercular glands who are apparently in good health. The Cuairman. There was a breaking and running on the outside; but when that breaking and running occurs on the inside is not the danger of infection of the lungs greatly increased by the germs infecting them ? Dr. Murruy. There may be an extension, Mr. Graham, of the in- fection of the glands into the lungs. The Cuamman. And the germs are of such a similar character that the lungs may be infected from the glandular tuberculosis? Dr. Murrny. They are the same thing, only a different location. What determines their goimg to the glands or to the bones or joints is sometimes difficult to see; but they seem to take the point of weak resistance. But I think that dirty mouths (uncleaned teeth) deter- mine the lodgment of tubercular bacilli in the mouth, and then to the glands which drain the mouth, and then from there to the neck; and very frequently among the Indians you might say that there are a great many people who keep their mouths cleaner than the majority of the Indians do. I find there are a large percentage of tubercular glands among the Indians. Of course, that does not show there [indicating photograph], but it shows how many you might come across in a single house. The Cuarrman. Six out of seven? Dr. Murry. Six out of seven. And while I was putting my camera in focus a visitor came along who had tubercular glands, and I told him to step in and have his picture taken, too; so the whole seven had tuberculosis in the neck. Mr. Burcu. I observe you say there is a certain percentage in the schools. Does that show a fair percentage of the inhabitants about the schools? ; Dr. Murrny. I quoted it from the schools, and quoted it from my examination of the Indians in their homes, and compared the per- centage of pulmonary tuberculosis of the schools (9 per cent) with the percentage found by visiting the homes at random (6 per cent). Mr. Burcu. How much? Dr. Murpuy. Six; there was an average of 8 per cent on the reser- vations; and of tubercular glands 13 per cent in the schools, and 9 per cent on the reservations, making an average of 11 per cent. It 78822°—H. Rep. 1836, 62-3, vol 2——5 2698 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. is very easy to get an accurate report from the schools, because I am able to strip them to the waist and make a careful examination of the lungs, while on the reservations the examination is not as satis- factory, because of the difficulty in making it. Mr. Burcu. Do I understand you speak now of the boarding school, with the dormatories? Dr. Murruy. The boarding schools and day schools—I examined all the schools that were in session during the time I was on the White Earth Reservation. Mr. Burcu. Then the difference between the percentages of tuber- culosis in the schools and houses is due to the fact that you can not compel a careful inspection in the houses? Dr. Murruy. There is no great difference. Mr. Burcu. No, very slight; but there is some, and you would naturally expect it to vary in the houses. : Dr. Mureuy. There is not enough to be able to tell exactly why there is any change in the percentage; but I expect that I might have picked out certain houses, because there were tubercular patients there, and the percentage would appear much higher; but I simply took the houses as they came, as I went around, not skipping any. Posed Burcu. You spoke of the Crow Reservation; how high ‘is it there? Dr. Murpeuy. I can not give you the exact figures. Mr. Burcu. Worse than White Earth, you think? Dr. Murpuy. I think it is probably the same or a little bit greater. Mr. Burcu. And neither are as high as those along the Salt and Gila Rivers, in Arizona, or among the Pueblos of New Mexico? Dr. Murruy. No, sir; they are not. Mr. Burcu. They are still higher ? Dr. Morruy. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. And you think there should be three times the num- ber of doctors, and that they should be better paid, do you, to stem the tide of this disease? Dr. Mureuy. I will not say there ought to be three times as many physicians, but I think there ought to be more physicians, and that the physicians that we have should receive better pay. Mr. Grorce. At least equivalent to the pay that is given to the physicians in other departments of the Government? Dr. Murry. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Can you tell me, Doctor, whether these physicians in this medical service are paid out of the Treasury or from the funds of the respective tribes or bands of Indians? Dr. Murreuy. My impression is that some of them are paid from the Indian school supports, which is a general appropriation, and that others are paid from local moneys like tribal funds. I think that the larger portion of the physicians are paid from the Indian school supports, although I can not tell you that definitely. The Cuarrman. Mr. Meritt may probably be able to give that more accurately than Dr. Murphy. Mr. Merrrr. Very few physicians are paid from the Indian moneys. J think we have a physician on the Crow Reservation paid from the Indian money in proportion to labor, but the majority of these are paid from the school supports, and that is a gratuity ap- propriation made by Congress. * WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2699 Mr. Burcu. Well, that is exactly the way the Army and Navy physicians are paid, is it not? Or, perhaps, you do not know. Mr. Merirr. From the appropriation of Congress; yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Why is it true that the one are paid higher than the other; that is, the Army and Navy surgeons and physicians are paid higher than the Indian surgeons and physicians? Is it because you have not asked for more? Have you asked for it? Dr. Murpuy. I have asked for it right straight along, but that is sometimes not as effective as some one else’s asking for it. Probably there has not been enough stir made. I have had a great many com- munications reach me from physicians all over the service asking that an organization might be gotten up to try and put the physicians in the Indian service on a higher plane and to get better salaries for them, and a number of them have asked whether or not it would be legal to apply to Members of Congress to interest them in the raising of physicians’ salaries. The physicians have not been very active themselves, apparently, in trying to get their salaries raised, to the extent of being successful at any rate. Mr. Burcu. Does a general in the Army or an admiral in the Navy look bigger to a committee of Congress, you think, than an ordinary Indian superintendent ? Dr. Murpuy. I think they do. Mr. Georcre. Well, they have more gold braid, anyhow. Dr. Mureuy. I think the Indian work is just as important, and especially as it involves certain diseases that are a menace to the white people of the various cities. The spread of these diseases cer- tainly ought to be limited, and I believe if we had a better equipped service we could do more along those lines. Mr. Burcu. Do you think these could be ultimately stamped out— trachoma, for instance? Of course we know about tuberculosis. Dr. Murruy. I think this is the way about trachoma: It is a most infectious disease in young people during the acute and early stage; and if we can command the treatment of the children in the schools, and if we can get the children and the adults to submit to treatment during the time it is most likely to spread, the older ones, who will be more likely to be brought into the hospital for treatment, can almost i let go without danger to the community of the spread of the isease. Mr. Burcu. Would this necessitate the segregation of these young eople from their parents and their homes where the old people ave it? Dr. Murpny. I think if a large proportion of them can be placed under competent treatment, it does not take so very long before the secretions lessen and the danger of the spread of the disease also lessens, and with the continuous treatment there is a possibility of stamping it out. Mr. Burcu. Now, Doctor, I would like to ask you about White Earth in the matter of a hospital, or series of hospitals. Is it your idea to put up a great big building, a single building, and put all these patients under the same roof, or to try to group them in villages on small allotments—a few acres each—with each family a cottage, and segregate them in that way, with a dispensary. I think you call it, and an operating place as the center of the village; that is, from 2700 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. which to do the work? Is such a plan practical or desirable in your opinion ? . Dr. Murrny. I think, considering trachoma alone, it would be easier to control the disease through the use of local hospitals where the physicians are stationed, rather than a central hospital. Mr. Burcu. Does that mean with all the patients actually in a building? That is what I was getting at. Dr. Mureny. What I mean is, if we put one hospital where all trachoma patients could be brought in from the various reservations, or from large distances, the chances are that we would not be able to get any large number of patients, but if we have a hospital wherever a physician is stationed, he can command the attendance of quite a number of patients who most need his services in that locality, without sending them away from their immediate residences. Mr. Burcu. I do not think you yet catch the idea. Should it be a hospital—local hospital now—a building in which these Indians having this affiiction should be compelled to go and live absolutely together, or should it be a mere dispensary, and residence for the physicians and the nurses, etc., and with surrounding homes as in a village, for the patients themselves? Dr. Murruy. I think whatever hospitals are built should have both a place where the patients could stay and also a dispensary where they could go for treatment. I do not quite catch your idea about their homes and their treatment. Mr. Burcu. Well, supposing a small farm, 4 or 5 or 6 acres, a cottage or house built upon that farm, or place to be used as a home for a family of Indians, and thus, while not in close contact like an ordinary village or city, there would be still a community in reason- ably close relationship with a place to be used as a residence, an office, and operating room and dispensary, where each of these people could go from their own homes and return to their own homes; would that be better than a series of large buildings in which they would be congregated? Do I make it plain now? Dr. Murrey. I think I understand what you mean. We have done what you might call a certain amount of field work on the reservations by sending physicians to the community and having them. treat the Indians in that community by remaining there a — certain length of time and having a little room hired where they could operate and do dispensary work. We did that in the pueblos around Santa Fe. We had no hospitals; we had no way of getting to the Indians except by going to them and staying there, and in that way we treated all the children in the day schools and operated on all the children in the day schools, and treated and operated on all the people in the community who would permit it. Mr. Grorcr. Well, did you treat them in their homes or in some central place in that locality ? Dr. Murrny. The homes of the Pueblos are all in one little town, ‘you understand, and we did both—we had a place where they would come; and besides that, we would go around and round them up as much as possible. I think that answers your question, Mr. Burch; that is, where we have not a place on the reservation where we can command treatment, we will have to have the nurse and the physician settle down in that community and treat all those cases that can be benefited until they are put on the road to recovery. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2701 Mr. Burcu. But it does not hardly seem to me to reach the testi- mony thus far offered in this case. Now, under ordinary circum- stances, these Indians in their homes, while sometimes in small settle- ments like Elbow Lake or Fine Point, dotted here, there, and every- where around the lake like the country ride or practice of a doctor; in such cases a doctor must be sent out considerable distances in order for them to be treated. Dr. Murpny. Yes, sir. Mr. Burcu. Now that is treating them at their homes, the way you seem to have the idea. Now there has been some testimony here tending to show that it would be desirable, instead of having them scattered all over, to have them more congregated on the village plan, but not a close village—you might call it a settlement of 10 acres apiece, not closely allied but somewhat separated. A doctor natur- ally could reach a good many that way without so much hardship and saving a good deal of time. You could call them in easily to the central dispensary or hospital, or whatever it is, and leave them in their homes or at work or whatsoever they could do. Now that is the idea I am trying to get to your mind. On the other hand, in- stead of doing this, these Indians could be compelled, I suppose, if they could use force enough, to come in, and have a dormitory, sleep— stay just as in a prison almost—in one place in a locality. Now which is the best, if I make myself clear, in your opinion? Dr. Morpny. I think I understand you all right. It hardly seems that we can force the Indians to accept treatment if they refuse it. . _ Mr. Burcu. Yet, Doctor, you did not answer my question, please. I want to know which of those two systems is the better. That is another question, that you can probably enforce treatment of the Indians in their homes as well as you could in a building; but what I want to know is whether it is better to congregate them in dormi- tories, to treat them for this, or better to have them each in their several homes. Dr. Murpuy. It would be a good deal easier and a good deal more effective to corral all the cases that had trachoma and treat them, and the same would be true of tuberculosis. It would be most de- sirable to take all the cases of active pulmonary tuberculosis and either treat them or quarantine them until they either got well or died, for the prevention of the spread of the disease; but I do not believe the state of public opinion would allow the forcing of patients to accept treatment. under those circumstances against their will. _ Mr. Burcu. Well, I am sorry I can not seem to get your opinion in regard to it, and I guess I will abandon it. I thought, perhaps, I could be able to, but I will let the matter go. Perhaps I am wasting time. Dr. Murry. I think your idea contemplates compelling them to take treatment ? Mr. Burcu. No; I did not say anything about that. I suppose they would take treatment in one place as well as another. The Cuairman. Regardless of what they would do, Judge Burch wants to get at the theoretical side of the case, whether in your judg- ment it were better to have hospitals or infirmaries where they would be collected together and treated, or whether it would be better to have a sufficient force of doctors to treat them in their homes. Leave the Indians’ wishes out of the question altogether. 2702 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Mureny. I think they ought to do both. They ought to have a place where they can collect them and treat them, and ought also to work on the reservation for the Indians whom they can not get into the hospitals. The Cuarrman. If I understand you rightly, then some of the worst of the cases you would, if you could, congregate in the hospi- tals, and you would watch those who remained at home. Dr Mureuy. I[ think it would be most desirable to bring the cases into the hospital who were in the acute stage of the disease, those that are almost contagious. The Cuarrman. Now, let me add a statement to the judge’s ques- tion in reference to White Earth. In your judgment, would it be better to have one large central hospital for those who ought to be treated in the hospital, or to have three smaller ones located nearer the different Indian settlements, such as Pine Point, White Earth, and some point in the northeast part of the reservation ? Dr. Murrny. Well, I suppose that one hospital on the White_ Earth Reservation would be sufficient to care for the Indians on that particular reservation. The Cuarrman. In answering that question do you take into con- sideration the supposed tendency of the Indian to prefer to be near his home and his friends? To be specific, that the Pine Point Indian would object to going to the hospital at White Earth, whereas he would be willing to go into one at Pine Point or Round Lake? Dr. Murruy. My impression is that the Indians would be willing to go to White Earth to a hospital, if they are willing to go to a hospital at all. Dr. Richards told me that they were continually coming up from Pine Point to the hospital. The Cuarrman. It would have to be conceded that there could be better service and less expense per capita in one large hospital than in three smaller ones. Dr. Murruy. I think so, but I think that it would also be neces- sary to do a certain amount of trachoma work on the reservation in order to cover the whole field. The Cuarrman. Proceed, Mr. Burch. Mr. Burcu. I have not any further questions to ask. The CuHarrman. Doctor, in the matter of tuberculosis, do you think that the climate or location has anything at all to do with the existence of the disease ? , Dr. Murrpuy. You mean the original infection ? The Cuairman. No; the existence of it now; the per cent of per- sons affected by it. Dr. Murruy. It seems to be about as prevalent in the North as in the South, as far as I have been able to observe. The Cuarrman. The converse of that proposition is one that ap- pealed to me. I would suppose it would be more prevalent in a neighborhood in the section where the temperature got below zero in the winter time than in a section where the temperature was more equitably uniform. Mr. Grorce. But is there not such a thing as a cold cure for con- sumption ? The Cuarrman. Well, I have never heard of it practiced in such a way that the patient was exposed, without protection to the cold. WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. 2703 Dr. Murruy. No; the idea was not so much exposure to cold as it was the fact that they should have fresh air, and the cold: was an incident of the fresh air in certain climates. The Cuarrman. The intense cold renders the air less full of germ life and safer to breathe. Mr. Gzorcg. Or is it merely fresh air, whether it be cold or warm? Dr. Mourpuy. Fresh air. The Cuairman. The surprising thing to me is that it should be greater in Arizona and New Mexico than Minnesota, Montana, Wis- consin, or Wyoming. Dr. Murrey. I think the habits of life. among the Indians have a great deal to do with the spread of tuberculosis. While they may live in the open air, either in the North or the South, during the reater portion of the year, they spend one-third of their life in Fouees that are not well ventilated and in places where spitting is the rule; so that, no matter whether he lives in the North or the South, if the infection is present, it is easy to spread under conditions of that sort. The Cuamman. But is not nutrition a very large part of the sus- ceptibility to the disease? For instance, where a patient has plenty of nutritious food to eat and his bodily organs are working right and a good supply of new blood is being manufactured in the body, his resistability is much greater ? Dr. Murruy. The resistance is higher. The Cuarrman. Well, then, in the northern countries, it seems to me, from observation as well as reading, that in the winter time nutritious food was not the rule; that there was a lack of a supply of nutritious food and as a consequence the resistability of the body would be deteriorated, whereas in the warmer latitudes there would not be a liability to be hungry so much of the time or so long as in the northern latitudes. We found many places on White Earth where the main source of supply was rabbits and fish. Dr. Mureuy. That is perfectly true. The Cuarrman. Well, that is a very slim diet in a temperature of from 50° to 60° below zero four or five months at a stretch, even though there is some flour or other starchy food mixed in with it? Dr. Murrny. I think that there is no doubt that the lack of nutri- tion has a great deal to do with the lowering of the resistance of the body and predisposing it to tuberculosis and extension of the infec- tion, whenever the infection is taken into the body in states of low nutrition. ; The Cuairman. The chances are that at this moment in this room ae are enough tubercular bacilli to affect 1,000 people. How is that? . Dr. Moreuy. I do not know. The Cuairman. Well, is not it quite probable? Dr. Murpuy. It is probable there are tubercular bacilli in the room. The Cuarrman. Well, is not it quite probable, too, that the air is well supplied with germs and that we breathe them; and if there are abrasions in the lungs or in the passages leading to the lungs, and our health is poor, the resistability low, caused by bad diges- tion or insufficient food or some other reason, the tubercular germs take root and grow remarkably, whereas if we were in vigorous % 2704 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. health, even though we did breathe them, our resistability would throw them off and make them harmless? Dr. Murreuy. That is the theory. The Cuairman. Well, it is probably correct, is it not? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. : The Cratrman. So that these people who have insufficient food supply and wrong conditions in the winter and are exposed to those germs and breathe them are much more susceptible to take the dis- ease than if they were better fed? Dr. Murpuy. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And it occurred to me from the conditions I saw there and heard of there that they would be more exposed to disease and more likely to propagate it than down in the southern country, where they can live out of doors all of the time and where the sea- sons were such that they could probably have enough food all the time, and I was surprised to learn that I was wrong in my assump- tion. ; Dr. Murruy. Well, there are some of the southern Indians, too, whose food supply is pretty limited. The Cuarrman. After fresh air, one of the best means of fighting consumption, I take it, is plenty of nutritious food. Dr. Mureuy. Yes, sir; and rest and cleanliness. The Cuarrman. There is another form of disease which we heard -much of that you have not mentioned—venereal troubles. To what extent do venereal diseases prevail? Dr. Murpuy. I think there is a certain proportion of venereal dis- eases among the Indians, but I believe the proportion of venereal disease has been greatly exaggerated. I find it is the general testi- mony of the physicians in the service that venereal diseases among the Indians, especially syphilis, is comparatively rare. Now, there is a certain amount of venereal diseases on the White Earth Reser- vation, but possibly there is more on that reservation than there is on some other reservations, but I do not believe that there is an ex- tensive proportion of venereal disease among the Indians as a whole. Tubercular glands of the neck, the suppurating glands of scrofula, as it used to be called, have been taken for syphilis by the laity; also a disease known as impetigo, characterized by pussy-looking: sores on the face or on the hands, has been taken for syphilis. In addition to that an itch, which causes a certain amount of local in- fection, the irritation leaving a stain on the body following the cure of the itch. All of these skin diseases, favored by filthy conditions, are very common among the Indians, and I think they have largely been interpreted as syphilis, when the Indians did not deserve it. The Cuairman. Well, there is a kinship so far as effect is con- cerned, at least, between tuberculosis in advanced stages and syphilis; both cause a complete destruction of the tissues involved. Dr. Moreuy. Yes, sir; I think the statement that the Indians are badly infected with syphilis can be denied as a general rule. .I do not believe that they are, and I think I can prove so by the large number of physicians in the Indian service who have had experience in the treatment of the disease, and also of the number of cases reported as treated in the records of the office. The Cuairman. You are in a position to know these facts as well. as any one person in the country, are you not? WHITE EARTH RESERVATION.: 2705. Dr. Murpuy, Yes, sir, The CHarrman. You have before you a statement which you pre- . pared for our benefit, I believe. Am I right in that? Dr. Mureuy. Yes, sir. ~ The Carman. Will you please let us look at it [Dr. Murphy hands report to the chairman] ? The CHarrman. It is headed “ Preliminary report of Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, medical supervisor.” What is the meaning of “ prelimi- nary” in that sense? Dr. Murrny. I simply headed it that way because I got a tele- gram from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to prepare a pre- liminary report showing the prevalence of tuberculosis on the White Earth Reservation in order that it might be presented before this committee. The Cuairman. Speaking in a general way, what does this cover? a Morreuy. That covers the White Earth Reservation and no other. The Cuatrman. And as to what other particular matters? ‘ Dr. Murpuy. Largely in regard to tuberculosis and the Indians’ omes. The Cuairman. You recently made a visit to the White Earth Reservation, did you not? Dr. Mureny. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. When did you go and how long did you remain? Dr. Murruy. I was there, I expect, about 18 days. The Cuarrman. The first part of my question you have not an- swered. When was this? Dr. Mureuy. I have just returned from White Earth. The Cuairman. Are the facts given in your report partly from observation, or are they from information given to you by some one on the ground? Dr. Murpuy. They are from my own examinations, Mr. Graham, The Cuarrman. What points there did you visit? Dr. Murruy. I examined all the pupils in the schools which they had in them, including the day school, the Catholic school, and the mission school at White Earth. I also visited the Indian homes surrounding White Earth; and then I went up to Boleau and visited, or rather examined, all the pupils in that school and in the day school there, and visited a number of the homes there, averaging about 16 homes in each town. Then I went up to Porterfield or Duane and. examined the pupils in that school and the Indians in their homes in that vicinity. From there to Twin Lakes and did the same work there, and at Albo Lake, Pine Point; and I also went over to the Mille Lac Reservation, where the nonremovals were, and examined all those on the reservation, having opportunity to strip them to the waist, and examined all of them, because when they came up for payment we did not turn over the checks until we got the exami- nation. “ee The Cuarrman. That was a mild form of coercion. Dr. Murruy. Yes, sir; they did not object very much. There were only two or three that objected, but I found it was more suc- cessful than physical examinations in the homes. : The Cuairman. Do your statistics differentiate between the ages of the persons reported as having tuberculosis? 2706 WHITE EARTH RESERVATION. Dr. Murrny. Only in so far as they are differentiated by school pupils and reservation Indians, the reservation Indians include the children who were at home. The Cuarrman. Does your report show in a general way whether those affected were mostly old people or young people? ; Dr. Murruy. No, sir; it would not, because there were quite a number of children examined in their homes. The Cuarrman. Have you a recollection on that point? The ques- tion I want to get at is this—with better living conditions, with a reasonable amount of nutritious food, and with homes that had a fair supply of fresh air, can the disease be lessened greatly among the young people on the reservations? Dr. Mourrry. I think it can; yes, sir. PRELIMINARY Report or JosepH A. MurPHy, MEDICAL SUPERVISOR ON THE MEDICAL INSPECTION OF THE WHITE HARTH RESERVATION. The following is a brief summary of the amount of tuberculosis and trachoma found on the White Earth Reservation as the result of the examination of the pupils in the schools and Indians at their homes: a Num- | Per »Per-! Num- | Per- cent- | Num- ate 7a Num- | ber of | cent- vo age of | ber of cent : homes | Der ex-| cases | age of | ‘Guyer | tuber- | tuber- ee oI visited. amined.| of tra- | tra- lung cular | cular cular choma. | choma. | 1¢