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AND THE
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Report of Conference held in. London,
October 19, 20, and 21, > Sv6.
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J. KEMPSTER & Co., ST. BRIDE'S AVENUE.
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The undersigned suggests the following as errata to the report.
The lines are eounted from the top of the page.
2?age 26, line 5. For 'precluded' read 'permitted.'
„ 33, „ 47, For 'Falcott' read 'Talcott.'
„ 36, „ 2, Strike out 'and.'
„ 47, „ 34, For'these'read'there.'
„ 70, „ 1, For 'our' read 'your.'
„ 72, „ 10, After 'prepared' add 'to show.'
ii 80, „ 30, For 'in THE country' read 'in THIS
country.'
„ 94, „ 1, Bead'NOT at any time.'
JOSEPH MAXJ3TS.
THE
NEGRO OUESTION
AND THE
I. O. G. T.
Report of Conference held in London,
October 19, 20, and 21, 1876.
LONDON:
J. KEMPSTER & CO., ST. BRIDE'S AVENUE.
E. CURTICE & CO., CATHERINE STREET, STRAND.
1876.
CONFERENCE.
A RUPTURE having taken place in the Right Worthy Grand Lodge
of the Independent Order of Good Templars at the last session,
held at Louisville, Kentucky, on the 25 th May, 1876, a Conference to
negotiate regarding reunion was held at the Memorial Hall, Farringdon-
street, London, on the 19th, 20th, and 21st October, 1876. Present—
William Hoyle, Esq., presiding.
On the one side :—Col. J. J. Hickman, Dr. Oronhyatekha, Samuel
Capper, John B. Mason, John Prichard, William M'Donald; with L.
E. Harcus, reporter.
On the other side :—Joseph Malins, Rev. George Gladstone, Rev.
Morris Morgan, W. L. Daniel, John Pyper, John Kempster, William
W. Turnbull; with Henry Browne, reporter.
THURSDAY," "OCTOBER' 19.
Morning Sitting.
The session opened at eleven o'clock.
The Chairman : Dear brethren, it appears there has not been any arrangement
as ,to the method of procedure and the business before us this morning; and perhaps
it may be well before we begin business to have a little informal conversation, so that
wej may come to some arrangement as to what is before us, and how we should do it.
I thought there might have been a meeting of two or three of the heads before we
caifne; but there has not been. Before we begin, I would just aSk for a couple of
m'nutes in silent prayer, that God would bless us in our deliberations.
The meeting then engaged in silent prayer.
The Chairman : May I ask one or two to state their views as to the course of
procedure ? I will ask Bro. Malins first, and then Col. Hickman; and then, perhaps,
I may throw it open for a few minutes so that all may express their opinions as
to what they think would be the best order of business in this matter.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Would it not be better to submit a motion making your
appointment as Chairman formal by the meeting ?
Mr. Malins : That has been agreed to by letter from the Colonel.
Mr. Gladstone : It was nominated and agreed to by both sides beforehand.
The Chairman : It was so said.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : If so, there could be no objection to a formal motion. I
therefore move that Bro. Hoyle be invited to preside at our conference.
Mr. Malins seconded.
b
2
FIRST DAY.
Mr. GLADSTONE : Please amend by inserting "as arranged." That will 'show
you were not called upon at the spur of the moment, but that we had been consulting
you in the matter.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then put it as amended.
Resolution as amended put and carried unanimously.
Chairman : I will now ask Bro. Malins to open the business. Until business
is arranged we consider it as informal.
Mr. Malins : Mr. President, I shall simply prefer to move that the reporters
prepare a joint report, which shall be certified by the Chairman, and a copy supplied
to each party within a week from this date. Minutes of this conference to be drawn
up and approved at each sederunt.
Dr. Oronhyatekha seconded.
Motion put and unanimously carried.
Mr. Gladstone : It will now be necessary to have a secretary of the conference.
The reporters certainly should not have that work, but be left free to take their report.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Could not the reporters get together and prepare an
epitomised report which will serve us as minutes ?
The Reporters said this would be impossible they were to take verbatim
reports.
Mr. Morgan suggested the appointment of a separate secretary.
Mr. Malins moved the appointment of Mr. W. W. Turnbull as secretary of
conference.
Mr. Capper seconded.
Motion put and carried unanimously.
The Chairman : Is there any other executive business that needs to be done ?
Col. Hickman suggested that the hour of adjournment should be fixed, ind
apologised for keeping the meeting waiting.
Mr. Gladstone said it would be well if the Colonel would suggest the hour-, lie
not being in good health. He would suggest he should fix an hour beyond vl-kh
they should not sit.
Col. Hickman hoped the morning session would not be longer than absol t pi /
necessary, as he was not able to give much strength on morning meals, as he thu Tie
little. He did not think they should sit longer than 12 o'clock.
Chairman : Personally any arrangement you can make will be agreeable, bat I
would suggest we should be prompt, and not lose any time.
Col. Hickman proposed that an adjournment be made at noon, adding, lie
trusted the conference would be so short and terminate so harmoniously that (hey
should be required to stay there but a short time.
Mr. Gladstone seconded.
Motion put and carried.
The Chairman : What we should do during the present hour is to ascerlaii
what we have before us. I have been so engaged that I have not been able to it i 1
up all through this somewhat painful controversy. Hence I cannot, even if it n h
proper for me to do it, put the points at issue before you. I think I shall on I) d
right if I ask whether Bro. Malins or Bro. Gladstone would state what, in 1 htm
view, is the present position of the question, and what it is that the English jrnnil
Lodges would wish in order that they may feel that a reunion, upon a basis of j < r
manency, can be established ; and then I will ask Bro. Col. Hickman to state \, Lit
arrangement the R.W.G.L. of the American brethren are prepared to make, in i >i rlcr
that these points may be accomplished or secured.
Mr. Gladstone : Mr. Hoyle, as you know, sir, we are here this morniui, in
accordance with the arrangements that have been made between Col. Hickm i nd
the United Executives of the Grand Lodges of Great Britain and Ireland. \ is
known to all present, the Grand Lodges of Great Britain and Ireland received, i rue
time ago, certain proposals issued by Col. Hickman, and meant to be signed I n I he
FIRST DAY.
3
Grand Lodges in the South of America. When he came to this country, Bro. Malins
intimated that certain parties had been appointed and authorised to negotiate, and
also requesting that, if Col. Hickman wished it, we should meet in conference. The
offer was accepted by Col. Hickman, and an intimation made by him that, I am very
glad to say, he has certain definite proposals to lay before us ; or, as it is phrased in
the letter, "with something definite in the proposed conference." I presume the first
thing we have to do is to learn what these proposals or what this "something" is, in
order that we may form some judgment as to whether it will afford £j. basis of recon¬
ciliation.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I think the proper course to be pursued is for the brethren
to tell tts what they require in order to reunite the Order, and then the proposals
'Col. Hickman has to submit, when the proper time comes, may be quite sufficient;
and if not sufficient, then it will be for us to consider whether we can modify those
proposals so as to meet the views of brethren ; and therefore, in order to be able to
be in a position to do that, we shall have to know what our brothers require before
reunion can take place.
Mr. Gladstone : Mr. Hoyle, I am of opinion that we should not proceed very
wisely if we accept the Doctor's suggestion. I hope, therefore, there will be no
hesitancy in our getting to the matter at issue. It is well enough known that a rup¬
ture took place because what we asked was not granted. Our Grand Lodges, as far
as they have met, have expressed their approbation of the demand made, and they have
no new proposal to make. I understand, however, from the express terms of arrange¬
ment here (quoting from the Watchword) that Col. Hickman has "something
definite " in lieu of what was refused to us before. I cannot present anything new.
I do not think any of us has anything new to present. We wish to learn, since
our former demand was rejected, what is there else proposed to us.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Do I understand, then, Bro. Gladstone's positiqn to be this;
that the only condition on which reunion can take place is, the acceptance by the
R.W.G.L. of Bro. Gladstone's amendment offered at the Louisville session.
Mr. Gladstone : No. I do not wish any understanding to proceed from what
I have stated. My position is this : that we are here distinctly, earnestly to consider
whatever the deputation have to submit to us. I do not know whether it may be the
same demand or something in lieu of the old demand. We simply wish to know ; and
I understand we are invited to confer as to that. I am quite willing, however, if that
does not meet your approbation, to put it in another way. We had certain proposals
before us at our Grand Lodge (Scotland), which it was considered might afford a
basis for negotiation. These documents were, however, incomplete, being unsigned.
If they are now signed, and can be submitted in that condition, I think we might
very fairly go on to confer upon them. Understand, simply that we have nothing else
to substitute for what we have put before you. Our Grand Lodges, however, have
not given us any authority on that.
Chairman : If I might here interpose, it might relieve us of a somewhat difficult
position if we did open this discussion upon the suggestions offered that were sent
over from America.
Mr. Gladstone : Very gladly.
Chairman : I refer to those presented to me when I signed the memorial. I
dare say it would assist us.- And leave everything else as though it had never been.
Mr. Gladstone : I perfectly agree with that suggestion, Mr. President.
Chairman : In that connection, would it not be well to have those read over?
Col. Hickman: I would simply state the way we received the information—
although I will state here that the brother could not understand what I drew up
as a formal proposition till it was signed—it was drawn up to be signed, as it shows
on its face, and a copy was placed in the hands of brethren, to show my desire for
reunion in advance of what others might do. Now, we were given to understand,
at least I was, from what I have heard over this side, that they considered the propo¬
sitions sympathetic ; and they spoke about requiring security. I did not understand
that, land I do not yet understand it, because I have never understood in a brotherhood
like this that if our brethren agree to certain things, they should be required to back
4
FIRST DAY.
it up with security to fulfil what they have promised. Therefore we are as much in
the dark as to what the brethren want as they are of what we want. I also understood
Bro. Gladstone to say that the Grand Lodges had acted on the propositions as
submitted, and which caused the withdrawal from the R. W. G. L. because they were
rejected, and they have no new proposition to submit. Necessarily that throws us
back to the original demand of our brethren at the session of the R.W.G.L,
Chairman : Bro. Gladstone has agreed to accept the propositions sent.
Mr. Morgan: I should like to know whether these propositions have been
endorsed by the Executives of the Southern Grand Lodges ?
Mr. Gladstone : I should like to put another point : We, of course, received
these propositions under date June 22, 1876, accompanied by a letter to myself,
saying : " The South makes the above offer, and will sign the above and that
letter was signed " W. S. "Williams, R.W.G.S." Then Col. Hickman from his
office sent, of date 2SU1, these documents ; and at a later date, July nth, sent a
letter which influences us considerably. I shall just read it. It will put the matter
before us as we understand it to be. It is addressed to the Rev. R. Simpson,
P.R.W.G. Counsellor, and says: "Dear brother, I enclose you exchange for so
much. I will mail the documents to Bros. Malins and Gladstone as soon as signed,"
and so forth, signed by Col. Hickman. Now, we have been waiting till this hour to
receive these documents signed; and according to the instructions of my .Grand Lodge,
I am prepared at once to enter on negotiations on the basis of these signed documents
if they are present.
Col. Hickman : In answer to the question put by Bro. Morgan, whether these
documents were signed, I might be permitted also to ask, would they be accepted if
signed ?
Mr. Gladstone : Certainly as a fair basis for negotiation.
Dr. Oroniiyatekha: Was it not a deliverance of the United Executive before¬
hand that these documents were inadequate ?
Mr. Gladstone : Not as a basis for negotiation.
Dr. Oroniiyatekha : That the proposals contained were inadequate to meet
your demands. Now, what I ask is, will you let us know what your additional
demands are, and then we will soon tell you whether we are in a position to grant
them ?
Mr. Gladstone then read the deliverance of the United Executives on this
particular point:—"The United Executives are glad to witness the desire for reunion
indicated by this document; they also regard the proposals submitted as a virtual
acknowledgment that the position taken up by our representatives was right and
constitutional, and hold that position to be the only one affording a safe basis on
which reunion can be secured. The United Executives are not in circumstances,
owing to the incomplete state in which the document is sent to them, formally to
entertain the two proposals submitted as a basis of union ; but, at the same time,
they have no hesitation in stating that these proposals give no security that coloured
persons shall be admitted on terms of equality to the benefits of our Order, furnish no
adequate guarantee that the Order, if introduced, shall be extended among the
negroes, and hence must be regarded as unsatisfactory. The United Executives,
however, regard the proposals made as affording the opportunity for arranging a
satisfactory and honourable reunion; and, therefore, recommend the Executive of
the Right Worthy Grand Lodge of the World to negotiate with the Executive
presided over by Col. Hickman." Now, I understand, of course, there \\as a
manifesto. In accordance with that, we accept the invitation to confer. We are
here in accordance with arrangements made for this conference.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : You mean we have accepted the invitation.
Mr. Gladstone : If you prefer to put it in that way. It is understood thalt the
proposals came to us in the first instance. They were sent over authoritatively as
proposals for reunion, and it was on our receipt of them that we intimated our readi¬
ness to negotiate. When the brother came over from the other side, we asked as to
the parties prepared to do so. Col. Hickman immediately arranges and intimates he
has "something definite" to lay before us. I submit that the proper way to Lro to
FIRST DAY.
5
work is to have either these signed documents presented for a basis of negotiations, or
something else as a substitute.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : So far as I understand the deliverance, they tell us they
think the propositions are inadequate,
JVIr. Gladstone: We shall be prepared to intimate what we would like in
addition. But we are prepared just now to begin upon them as affording a fair
basis for negotiation. "The United Executives are not in circumstances, owing to
the incomplete state in which the document is sent to them, formally to entertain the
two proposals submitted as a basis of union. But at the same time they have no
hesitation in stating these proposals give no security that coloured persons shall be
admitted on terms of equality to the benefits of the Order; further, no adequate
guarantee is introduced that the Order shall be introduced among the negroes. The
United Executives, however, regard the proposals made as affording an opportunity
for arranging a satisfactory and honourable reunion."
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We are there assured that whether signed or not—that
is the inference—it would be inadequate. Now, what is the use of considering pro¬
posals considered inadequate? For we have other proposals that we think will go
further than that. Therefore, as we must come to the real question) will you not
state what will be satisfactory to you; and then we will let you know in a few words
whether our views will be likely to meet with your demands. It seems a waste of
time to take up the consideration of proposals you distinctly assure us are inadequate.
Chairman : The English Grand Lodge Executives have had offered to them certain
proposals. They say they are not sufficiently satisfactory. Would it not be best to
take those proposals one by one ? and as we take them they should state in what
particulars they are not satisfactory. Then our brethren from America will say what
they are prepared to state in order to make them satisfactory.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : That will do.
Mr. Gladstone : I perfectly agree with your suggestion. At the same time, I
am equally ready to hear at once any other propositions that may be substituted in
place of it. If we have these signed proposals submitted to-day, we can go on with
good hope.
Col. Hickman : Admitting that they were signed, then, that document that has
been read states they are inadequate. If they were signed by the Executives of the
South, how could we change them? We must consider also that if these documents
are prepared for their signature, and are signed, and we are told by the deliverance of
our brethren they are inadequate to meet the question, then how_ can we go on con¬
sidering what would be termed an official document signed, and, in the absence of the
brethren who signed them, make changes in them ?
Mr. M'Donald : Would it form a sensible ground of basis for reunion, the
■consideration of documents which the secessionists say will not meet the want? They
say it is inadequate, that it is not competent to do what they want. If so, is it a
sensible basis for us to discuss? If you read the paragraph you will find the
United Executives say it gives no security for the negro being admitted on equality.
If it gives no security, why should it be a basis ?
Chairman : I think if they were satisfactory we should not have met in conference,
and all we should have done would be to say we accept. But they say they are not
satisfactory ; and we are here to discuss the'question. They should point out in
the first place, in what respect they are not satisfactory, and our brethren on the
other side should show either they are sufficiently satisfactory to meet our reasonable
demands, or that they are prepared to make further concessions in order to make them
completely satisfactory.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We may probably be misunderstood by the term "further
concessions." Perhaps it is not necessary, however, to discuss merely technical terms.
But we do not admit that word " concession."
chairman: I will withdraw it if a substitute is suggested which will better
-convey my meaning.
A Voice : Let us have a substitute.
6
FIRST DAY.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I will furnish you with one; and that is, that we accept
the Chairman's suggestion, a wise one, and consider the proposition and see wherein
it is objectionable ; and we shall then see if we are authorised by our laws to make it
satisfactory to them.
Mr. Gladstone : I heartily agree; and desire now the signed proposals to be
submitted. There is no use considering them unless they be signed.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We do not desire just at present to submit the signed
document, because it gives more than there is in that proposal. There is as much
obstruction on the one side as on the other. Let us, then, consider first whether we
can agree upon a set of propositions, satisfactory and honourable on both sides, and
then we will tell you if we are authorised to adopt them on behalf of the Southern
Grand Lodges.
Mr. Gladstone : I should like to ask, as one of those desirous to bring matters
to a successful issue. Two or three times over, it has been intimated by the Doctor
and Col. Hickman that they have something to submit to us—a signed document. I
am willing to go on with the original propositions if they are signed, at once. I would
suggest, however, that as there is some other document, it might be considered at
once ; for it is desirable we should get to the heart of this matter. What is the use of
considering proposals now if they do not or are not the same as this other "something?"'
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Will the brother allow me to ask what is the use of our
considering proposals which they consider inadequate ? This conference is held that they
may point out wherein they are inadequate, that we may make them adequate. Are
we to stand on technicalities ? The Colonel is authorised by some Grand Lodges who-
have passed it in session, and other Grand Lodges who have not met in session, and
is authorised and given discretionary powers, so that the only question is, whether we
can agree upon terms, and if we can do that, the Colonel represents the Southern
people, and he signs them.
Mr. Gladstone : Do I understand the Doctor that the Colonel will sign in the-
name of the Southern Grand Lodges ?
Col. Hickman : Certainly.
Mr. Gladstone : But they have already signed something, I understand ?
Col. Hickman : Yes.
Mr. Gladstone : Is there any real objection that we may have it ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha: There may not be at a later stage of the proceedings^
But we want now to agree upon terms. There can be no possible objection to saying
on what terms we can agree, and when they are submitted, if the Colonel is not
authorised to sign, he will tell us. We can then modify them for his signature. Point
out your objections, and see if the Colonel is authorised to meet them.
Mr. Gladstone : I have already expressed my willingness, and the rest of the
brethren on this side of the table will coincide, to adopt the suggestion and consider the
proposals. I think, however, that as we have the written pledge of Colonel Hickman
that these proposals would be sent to us signed, it is a matter of moment at the very first
to learn if they are signed or not; and if not signed, let us have some explanation why
we have this pledge for the fulfilment of which we have been waiting a considerable time.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It is said the proposals are inadequate. What was the
use of the Colonel getting them signed if he was so told ? In order to meet the reply
of the brothers he got this discretionary power, so that, if possible, we could agree
upon some terms; and he is authorised to sign them on their behalf. That is' the
complete explanation why the proposals were not signed. They were declared to be-
inadequate. The other papers were signed in order that we might go further and
make them, if possible, adequate.
Mr. Gladstone : I understood that the proposals were not signed.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : You understand that the Colonel has papers signed by
the Southern representatives going further than these proposals, in order to meet your
understanding that the proposals were inadequate. The Southerners have signed
another document giving the Colonel discretionary power, saying, " Go over and. try
and treat with them, to make the terms adequate." !
FIRST DAY.
7
Mr. Gladstone : Then the first step to be taken by wise men is that we learn
very definitely what this document is that has been signed. We may at once be able,
to give an opinion upon it. It is a substitute for proposals declared inadequate.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I object to the term. It is not a "substitute." It is a
power given to Colonel Hickman to meet the views of the brethren.
Chairman : I think we might take the original proposals, and state wherein they
are inadequate, and our American brethren will state what they are proposing to do
to make them adequate.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Then I may submit the other view. If the Colonel has
not the authority to confirm what we may agree upon to-day or to-morrow, that ought
not to prevent us ascertaining on what we can agree; and, if the Colonel has not the
authority to have them signed, we may not assume he may not get the authority, or
that the Grand Lodges will not endorse what we may agree upon to-day.
Mr. Pyper : It occurs to me that surely we may arrive more speedily at the great
object if we take things in a certain logical order. My idea of this is: A certain
unfortunate thing exists, as we believe, on this side of the Atlantic, that rendered it
necessary for us to separate. Then Col. Hickman, I was delighted to find, took the
initiative step to get proposals to submit to us as a basis of reunion. That was sub¬
mitted, and we considered it and pronounced it then inadequate, and we gave reasons.
I submit, in the logical arrangement, we should first hear what this proposal is, and
then we can give a candid reply as to our acceptance.
Col. Hickman : If I come authorised by a conference of my brethren to make
satisfactory arrangements for reunion, which they will agree to, then how can I state
what that reunion shall be till I hear what the brethren have to advance ? We want
to know what they want, and then I can soon say if I am authorised to do it. May
I ask what it is the brethren desire ?
Mr. Pyper : I state at once, the admission of the negro on terms of full equality.
We stated that in our considerations, and I take it for granted it is known. I would
reply to Col. Hickman that I was one of the deputation to Col. Hickman, and was
desirous of hearing the additional basis for reunion. I was sincerely so at heart.
We were desirous of reunion, if possible. Col. Hickman, on that occasion, said to
the deputation that he would not submit these proposals until he had a body prepared
to negotiate with. So to meet his views we are here, and we are in a position to
negotiate; and if we heard equitable terms—and all would rejoice to hear of such
terms, for we never wanted a separation—we should be just as anxious for reunion.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : What do we understand by the conference? You say the
mere submitting of terms on our part, and the consideration by you to receive or
reject. If that be your idea of the conference, we are wasting time. _ These proposals
could have been sent over and considered, and you could have received the answer.
That is not a conference. What I consider the object of this meeting is to see wherein
we differ, and whether we can harmonise upon a common honourable basis. There¬
fore, the proposition submitted by the Chairman seems to me to be the most feasible
one to get at the question ; to consider the proposals submitted, and show us wherein
they are inadequate, not in general terms, but in detail. Then the Colonel will be able
to tell us whether he is authorised by the Southern Grand Lodges to agree to these terms.
Surely the brethren do not desire to say they do not believe the Colonel has these
papers to which I referred, or that they would desire to see them before they negotiate.
You state the reasons. Will you point out the reasons why they are inadequate?
Mr. Pyper : The reasons were printed and sent along with them; and so we
took it for granted that both Dr. Oronhyatekha and Col. Hickman had seen the
reasons; and I think it trifling in a meeting of earnest men to stand upon such a line.
Col. Hickman said in Liverpool he would submit these terms when the proper body
was present to submit them to. That proper body is here.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I trust Bro. Pyper will not consider any remark I may-
make is for trifling with it.
Mr. Pyper : A word of explanation. The remark is applied as much to my side
as to the other.
8
FIRST DAY.
Mr. M 'Donald was glad to hear that explanation. Let them go on the assumption
first that they were not signed, and then discuss all that was in them ; and let those
who say in print the proposals are inadequate and not sufficient to give equality to the
negro, make this clear ; and the moment they do this, those on this side of the table
are bound in honour to say if they have anything further to offer. I think it is putting
it as clear as day.
Mr. Gladstone: I have no desire to stand on mere forms; but I am very
anxious we shall understand definitely every step we take in this important conference.
The issues are too deeply drawn to justify me, I think, in going any distance in it when
I do not just see what it means. I want to recall to those assembled the exact
condition of affairs. First of all we made a certain proposal which was rejected, and
on the rejection of which separation took place. Those from whom we separated
immediately took steps to secure reunion by sending to us what purported to be
proposals, but which were unsigned. The intimation came along with them to us that
they would be signed when we received them. We considered them. I speak now
for the United Executives.. And there was sent by our secretary a letter to the
gentleman who was authorised, as I understand it, to send these proposals, who sent
them acting as R.W.G.S.; and in the letter was that declaration : "It appears to us
that at present we can communicate nothing further, but that you may expect a
deliverance from the Executive Committee of the R.W. G.L. of the World, and those
associated with them, immediately after the documents by the South have been signed
and considered by them. As yet we have not received those signed documents, and I
think Col. Hickman clearly intimated at Liverpool that there was no proposal, till the
signatures had been adhibited. In that case, strictly, we have absolutely no pro¬
posals at all before us. That is assuming that the Colonel was right. I think he was.
I agree with the Americans in that.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I would ask the brother : Supposing the proposals are
not signed, would you take the proposition that this conference cannot go on ? I say
again, granting there are no propositions, or that the Colonel is not authorised to
endorse any proposition that might be agreed upon here, does that form a valid
objection why we should not go on and agree upon the basis of settlement; and if not
authorised to be signed now, those proposals can be taken to the Southern Grand
Lodges, and so have them confirmed ?
Mr. Gladstone : I do not understand that this conference may not go on
though the proposals are not signed. My proposition is, then, that the brethren
representing those from whom we have separated, and who seek reunion, should
present either to us these signed proposals for reunion, or some other proposals for
which we may reunite. They seek reunion, and I wish them to have the credit of
that, though I am as anxious for reunion provided on an honourable basis; and I do
not think anything but an honourable basis will be acceptable on either side. But
there was a certain proposal made, or promise, rather. The promise has not been
fulfilled.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Why ?
Mr. Gladstone : One moment! I think, now, as these proposals are not before
us, we should learn from these brethren at once, and in as few words as they care to
put it, what are the terms they are prepared to submit to us, on the ground of which
we might go back to those from whom we have separated. We have no proposal to
submit. We put our demand in at Louisville, and it was rejected. I am not here to
say we might not at this conference arrange a reunion on something differing in
words or in some respect from what was demanded there. I am not saying that at
this particular point, though personally I approve of our then position, and stand
by it to-day. But I am here to learn what those have to present in lieu of what they
refused, and the refusal of which led to separation. I submit, when reunion is
sought, those who seek reunion should unquestionably tell us at once on what
grounds they expSct those who have gone out to return.
Col. Hickman : I am also prepared to say I think it but fair and just that of
the propositions spoken of as informal, I say they were not proposals till signed, and
I did not know you had received any other of the documents, excepting through Bro.
Simpson. But let that be as it may, after receiving from the brethren the information
FIRST DAY.
9
that proposals, even if signed, were inadequate, why, I did withdraw them from my
Grand Lodges, and, as has been intimated, I have authority to enter into negotiations,
as those proposals, even if signed, were inadequate. It is only fair I should know
from my brethren what you else desire, if that paper prepared for the signature of the
Southern Executives would not be satisfactory to the brethren. I was exceedingly
anxious for it. It is but right, since these proposals are inadequate, and coming as I
do with some authority to enter into an arrangement which would be honourable
and agreeable to all to unite this great Order, that I should know from the brethren
what else you can desire.
Mr. Morgan : We have fully declared our views.' In substance, as Bro.
Gladstone has said, we do not tie ourselves to certain words or phrases, but to prin¬
ciples held at Louisville. We must stick to those principles and see that the Order
is extended to every man, without distinction as to colour, race, or language. The
proposals sent by Col. Hickman have been considered. Our deliverance has been
sent back, and now we are waiting to see what further propositions he has to make.
We are anxious to see if anything can be settled in an amicable manner. But we
have nothing more to say than what we have said. We have fully expressed our
views and are prepared to hear the American delegation, and then we shall say if
their proposals meet our views or not. I am anxious this conference should come to
a practical issue, and that we direct ourselves to the main question at issue.
Mr. Mason :,These proposals, though not being adequate to the G.W.C.T.s,
would be considered adequate to a considerable portion of the Templars in England;
and we have been anxious to learn what further the Executives wanted, and they
should now state on what terms they would be willing to go in for reunion. I should
t like to know this for the sake of the sub-lodges with which I have some connection.
We are particularly anxious for reunion, none more so. I should like to know what
the G.W.C.T.s think should be the offer of the R.W.G.L. as the basis of reunion.
Mr. Morgan : I have the resolution of our Executive, "That we rejoice to
understand that Col. Hickman comes for reunion," and intimates a possibility for re¬
union, which would be highly desirable. '' At the same time we cannot refrain from
expressing our judgment that these proposals are insufficient and unsatisfactory."
And there has not been one dissentient voice in my jurisdiction on this question ; so
far as I have been able to understand, the whole of the membership is at one on this
point.
Chairman : The difficulty is one simply of form. I think we may in this
matter give a little and take a little. I think if we take these proposals and begin
seriatim, and discuss the difficulties which will present themselves, we shall come
across a lot of difficulties before we get through, and be able all the better to come
to a satisfactory conclusion.
Mr. Gladstone then said : I will present, then, a • proposal. I have seen no
reason to recede from my position at the R. W. G. L., and I will submit, therefore, as
our demand :—" To strike out from R.W.G.L. Constitution, Art. i, sec. 3, the words
commencing with 'except' and ending with 'business,' and insert the following in their
place, ' except that in any Grand Lodge territory where difference of language or race pre-'
elude united working, a duplicate Grand Lodge charter maybe granted, covering the same
territory, and having jurisdiction over all subordinate lodges of the language or race for
which it was granted; and in any case where Grand Lodge excludes persons from mem¬
bership, owing to language or race, its jurisdiction shall, so far as the excluded community
is concerned, be considered unoccupied territory, and the R.W.G.L. or any Grand
Lodge may mission such portions till they have sufficient subordinate lodges to receive
a duplicate Grand Lodge charter with coequal powers with the senior Grand Lodge in
the territory.' " That was the provision that we presented to the brethren at the
R. W. G. L. To get quit of the question of form, I repeat it to-day, and ask the brethren
are they prepared to grant this ? If not, how much less, or what else ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We are prepared to grant more than that.
Mr. Daniel : I have come a great distance, and certainly at Liverpool we were
given to understand that Col. Hickman himself would be prepared with certain pro¬
posals. This is the first time I have had the pleasure of meeting him, and I certainly
do think it would veiy much facilitate matters if Col. Hickman himself would take
IO
FIRST DAY.
the leading part in replying to these questions. I hope Dr. Oronhyatekha will not
think it unkind.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : If the brother will allow us to conduct our own side we
shall be very exceedingly obliged. The Colonel is unwell; his throat is in a condition
that he ou^ht not to speak at all; and it is at his request, and to save his throat, that
I do the talking—and I would much rather not say a word. If the brother will
kindly allow us to manage our case, I think we shall get along.
Mr. Daniel: I have no desire whatever to interfere with the conduct of the
case on the other side. Still I am speaking for myself. My brethren on this side can
speak for themselves. I should not like to tax Col. Hickman to speak a longer time
than he desires; but I have been exceedingly anxious ; and I would not have been
here to-day were it not that I hoped to meet him, and have from Rim some positive
and distinct proposals for reunion in reference to this matter.
Mr. M'Donald hoped to hear no more of distance. Col. Hickman had come
further, and considering his mission, they should have nothing to say on that point.
The least they could do was to tell Col. Hickman, especially considering the distance
he had come, where the security was defective. Let them show in the proposals what
they did not like, and he would tell them what would be better.
Mr. Gladstone, to put the matter in order, said he would make the proposal
the ground of reunion ; and he formally submitted it.
Mr. Morgan : When questions are submitted to Col. Hickman, he should reply
■to them, not the Doctor.
Chairman : I accept all these gentlemen on Col. Hickman's side as Col. Hick¬
man's mouthpiece if he do not repudiate what they say. I hope we shall have no-
further references of this sort.
Mr. Morgan : I do not wish to suppress the gentlemen for a moment. I wish
them all to speak freely ; but when I direct a question, I desire that the gentleman
should reply, and no one else.
Chairman : If they wish to delegate anyone else they are at liberty.
Col. Hickman : I have no desire to employ anyone else to answer the questions-
put to me directly. My condition has been such that I have been forbidden by my
physician to be out. But I do not consider my health when I consider the great
objects we have in view in this noble Order ; and I will give you every word that is
necessary that I can give. I do not wish to be always on the floor in this conference,
but to speak pointedly and as seldom as I can; and I hope it will not be considered
uncourteous if, on questions being asked of me, someone else does answer.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I move, "That we take the suggestion of the Chairman-
that we consider the proposals of Col. Hickman submitted last June to United
Executives seriatim, and that the British representatives point out wherein the said
proposals are inadequate or defective, and ascertain whether terms cannot be agreed
on, that will be adequate and satisfactory to all parties concerned."
Mr. Turnbull: We understood Col. Hickman to say the proposals were-
entirely withdrawn.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Let us first ascertain who are the membersof this conference.
Chairman : The proposals are made even if they have been withdrawn. The-
understanding is that the proposals that were made shall form the basis of negotiations.
Mr. M'Donald seconded the motion, saying many Templars in his city desired it.
Mr. Malins : I do not know whether in a conference of this kind resolutions
indicating the order of procedure should go to the vote. If so, I shall be apt to move
as an amendment: "That, Col. Hickman having stated in writing that he has definite
proposals to lay before this conference, he be requested to submit them now." Un¬
questionably we are here expecting one of two things—either that the proposals which
if signed we consented to accept, not as an absolute condition of reunion, but as a
basis for negotiation, should be laid before us, to start with them signed. The
Colonel says if they are signed and yet inadequate, how can they be altered ? I
answer that if unsigned, how can we accept them as a basis for negotiation, when the
condition of our accepting them as a basis of negotiation was their being signed ?
FIRST DAY.
II
But we do not stand for insisting upon the production of these documents signed, if
Col. Hickman has some other definite proposals to lay before us. Our American
friends keep asking us what do we demand or wish, what are our proposals ? Be it
understood that we come here without any proposals whatever. We come here to
receive proposals from Col. Hickman, from the delegates from America, if they have
any to submit. We have no proposals. The proposals suggested came from the
other side. We have no proposals. We did put forward an ultimatum. That
ultimatum was not conceded. We have the approval of our constituents in pressing
that ultimatum, I mean of the vast majority of our constituents as expressed in voting
bodies. That being so, we have no other ultimatum to present. A separation has
taken place. The proposals for reunion were sent from the other side, and if they are
not to be presented in the form indicated, we want to know if anything else is to be-
presented. We have no proposals. We are anxious in our heart of hearts for reunion.
When at Louisville we framed what we thought would be the least that we could
righteously accept. Our convictions have not altered one#jot. But if Col. Hickman
comes with " something else" that in his judgment is equivalent to that, and more
than it, let him produce that "something" else. We have no proposals. The
American delegation are the proposers of reunion, and promised us something very
definite as soon as we met, and we call upon them for that " something definite."
Col. Hickman : Will Bro, Malins say what he means by the proposal for
reunion ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : lama British delegation.
Mr. Malins : I mean simply that Canada is a part of the continent of America.
Mr. Gladstone : I would submit we should not be too particular about phrases.
My good Bro. M'Donald described us as secessionists, and I did not dispute it. We
should not be too finical.
Mr. M'Donald : I did not say it offensively.
Mr. Malins : Col. Hickman, in his letter to me, the first letter, October 7th
(Watchword., October 18th, 1876), says: "Relative to negotiations for reunion.""
That is the phrase in his letter.
Col. Hickman : It is taken from yours.
Mr. Malins : Very well. I declare that a real separation has taken place
between those once united ; and that in the documents sent over by Col. Hickman
he proposes reunion, reunion between those who have been separated. If they have
not been separated, reunion is not necessary.
Col. Hickman : Just a moment. The brother says that there is a separation.
He claims that himself. And in the language used for negotiations for reunion, I
copied that from the brother's letters, if I am not mistaken. But let that be as it
may ; there is a claim made that there are in existence two separate supreme bodies..
Then do I understand that you want reunion with us, or whether we shall have
reunion with you ? The question is, where is reunion to be ? Is your desire for
reunion with the body over which I preside ? Let us agree to terms here that will
be acceptable. Do you desire a reunion as we were before, with the body over whom
I preside ?
Mr. Capper : That has been stated.
Mr. Malins : It does not follow. I do not know that Mr. Gladstone did state
that in the sense that it is obviously meant. To assent to the sense which I understand
Col. Hickman desires us to put on his question, is to concede the point that there is
but one supreme body, the R.W.G.L. of Col. Hickman.
Col, Hickman : I do not wish to draw that from you at this time.
Mr. Malins : Then our brethren had better not press the question, for I should
be obliged to say something !
Mr. Kempster: I am sure the feeling of the Grand Lodge of England is that if
the reunion can take place on principle, and we are guaranteed what we require for the
negro, all these matters as to place and power are subordinate here; and, although
that may be an after matter for negotiation, the first basis for negotiation is principle
and so far as our Grand Lodge is concerned, if it did not feel it were competent to state-
12
FIRST DAY.
its own case on a matter of detail, we should be delighted to refer it to any impar¬
tial person.
Mr. Pyper seconded Mr. Malins's amendment *. I do so because it seems the only
effective mode of getting at the business before us. I hope the other side will not think
we wish to obstruct; but I think it would be obstructing our great object if we
did not receive the proposals Col. Hickman has to submit. A separation took place
for a certain reason. Proposals for reunion were sent over by Col. Hickman that we
thought were intended for negotiation, but they were not signed by the bodies, and
Col. Hickman says they are not proposals till they are signed; and having ad¬
mitted that, we are asked by him to come here and consider his proposals. He will
admit this was the thorough understanding at Liverpool. Mr. Malins's amendment
will be considered by the intelligent members as the right course to go upon.
Chairman : That is an implication that the others are not so intelligent.
Mr. Pyper : I do not mean it as a reflection, I take it as an historical thing.
Afterwards Bro. Malins's amendment will be looked upon as common sense. Accord¬
ing to my honest conviction, it is the common sense way of doing it.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The simple answer is, we think the other way is common
sense.
Chairman : It will not do to use these terms.
Mr. Gladstone : I want to know if we are here to vote on these matters in
conference. Is it desirable ? It is almost certain the one thing will simply go as
against the other. What, then, is the use of a vote ?
Mr. Mason : I do not'think there is any use in submitting any proposition. I
have no idea of what Col. Hickman has to submit. It seems to me that what you
asked at Louisville you ask to-day, and that you will take nothing more nor less.
-{"No.")
Chairman : Bro. Mason must not put that into the heads of brethren that
has not come from their mouths.
Mr. Mason : Then I do not see why a vote should be taken in the conference,
as we are equally balanced.
The conference then adjourned until two p.m.
Afternoon Session.
The conference resumed at two p.m. The same parties were present, with the
addition of William Stockbridge to Col. Hickman's delegation.
Minutes read and adopted.
Debate resumed.
Mr. Gladstone : I am anxious to get away from these matters of form. I
have made two suggestions. I wish now to make a third. I do not see any result in
going to the vote, as you might have to give a casting vote, and even that might not
be very acceptable. I would suggest to Col. Hickman, if he would renew the
proposals, i.e., the substantive proposals, intimating that he is authorised by the
parties concerned to offer them to us. From what has been stated to-day, the
documents have not been signed, and it is no use insisting upon them further. But I
understand Col. Hickman has something else, and that that something else will
involve these propositions ; and if he will simply submit them as distinct propositions
from the parties concerned to us, as a basis of reunion, intimating that he has the
authority of those persons for so doing, I think we might in that way avoid the
unpleasantness of a division, and go on to the proposals themselves.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : You misunderstand the position we take as to unsigned
documents. We did say in the forenoon that the Colonel had certain documents
signed authorising him to treat with this conference, and to go to a certain extent in
agreeing upon terms that may be submitted. That is all I wish to correct.
Chairman : The point is, as I understand it, our brethren would be willing to
accept these, provided Col. Hickman will say he is authorised and empowered to
present them.
FIRST DAY.
13
Mr. Malins : Accept what ?
Chairman : The proposals of June.
Mr. Malins : As a basis of negotiation.
Mr. Gladstone : But the Colonel has said there is no proposal until it is signed.
Of course we do not wish to insist upon the documents if they are not here. But if
his authority is sufficient to authorise him to put in these papers we can consider them.
Mr. Turnbull : Only as a basis.
Col. Hickman : Tt looks to me as if the brethren desire all the proposals and
everything shall come from us in definite proposals, as though they did not wish to
meet us on half ground.
Chairman : As I understand, the point is this. Certain proposals were made,
but at the time they were made they had not received the sanction of the Southern
Grand Lodges, and Col. Hickman did this on his own responsibility, believing they
would accede to them. If he will take these proposals now, and say he has authority
to propose them as a basis on which to negotiate, then we may come to a discussion,
namely, on the proposals made in June.
Mr. Malins : Or any other, we don't mind.
Dr. oronhyatekha: We have stated again and again Col. Hickman had
written authority to propose them, or others more than these.
Chairman : Let him take these, then.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : If satisfactory.
Mr. Gladstone : That is for us to find out, whether they are satisfactory as a
basis of negotiation.
Mr. Malins : That is all.
Mr. Gladstone : If he will put in these proposals, and say he has the authority
of the parties concerned to submit them, we are ready to go on now and hear him.
Mr. Brichard moved: "That Bro. Gladstone having stated as the only
present proposal for reunion offered by the United Executives the amendment
moved by himself at the Louisville Session, Bro. Hickman be now requested to bring
before this conference such propositions as he may have to offer."
Mr. Mason seconded.
Mr. Kempster : Bro. Gladstone has not said that is the only proposal.
Mr. Gladstone : I made no proposal at all.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We mean the amendment you offered.
Mr. Gladstone : The reporters will bear me out that I submitted that only in
view of the seeming facts there was no proposal, and it was only to remove a dead¬
lock.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : To remove the difficulty, may we not take this course,
then ? Let us consider, independently of all proposals, on what basis reunion can
take place.
Mr. Malins : That is just what we are deeply anxious to do, and we have come
to this meeting to hear any proposals whatever—any proposals brought by the
American delegation. We have none; and if we were expected to bring any, we
have not so understood matters. We are here to receive proposals from the American
delegation, and are willing to waive all past promises of signed documents; and we
will respectfully consider any proposals you may present, and are most anxious to hear
them.
Mr. Pyper : I am sorry to waste a moment, but I respectfully suhmit that CoL
Hickman does not, in the present state of affairs, stand on equal terms, having said
over and over again that he has something in his possession and that we cannot hear
what that is. I submit that at a negotiation everyone should at that conference have
his credentials. Col. Hickman is not here as R.W.G.T. If he were he would not
be present to act for any Grand Lodge, or number of Grand Lodges, until he laid
before us the power they give him, and which he calls " discretionary." Col. Hick¬
man will let me deal candidly with him. We know here how we stand. We repre-
*4
FIRST DAY.
sent the Executives of the British Grand Lodges, and are empowered to negotiate.
Col. Hickman says he is empowered. With an understanding of that kind, I should
be acting a foolish part if I did not ask Col. Hickman to produce his credentials, his
authority, his powers, and from whom is his discretionary power, especially as the
Grand Lodges alone could 'grant him that discretionary power ?
Col. Hickman : We are here as a deputation from the R.W.G.L., and if you
want to see our credentials we are willing to show them.
Mr. Pyper : That is not my whole point. I understand that Col. Hickman says
.he had discretionary power to go a certain length. What is the discretionary power?
Mr. Gladstone : And who gives it ?
The Chairman ruled Mr. Prichard's motion out of order.
Mr. Stockbridge : Would it not be well to define the cause for reunion? We
■are here on an assumption as to the cause of dispute. Would it not be well for the
conference to decide what is the cause of dispute, and then go on further to submit
the propositions ?
Chairman : The idea is, that if we could get some propositions as the basis, all
these points would come up in order to be discussed. But if we go on a general
discussion we shall have nothing to keep us to any point, and we may talk till next week.
Mr. Gladstone : May I ask the Colonel if he is prepared now to lay before us his
authority from the parties concerned (the Grand Lodge South), to present the proposals
issued by him to them, not being signed, or any other proposals ?
Cpl. Hickman : What would you consider an authority from the Grand Lodges ?
Mr. Gladstone : I should consider it would be their instructions to you.
Col. Hickman : If the Grand Lodges have not met ?
Mr. Gladstone : Then their Executives.
Mr. Malins : The usual mode is by an official document certified by the
G.W.C.T. and G.W.S., and with the seal of the Grand Lodge. But we wish not to
stick upon such small matters as the omission of a seal.
Chairman : Or the resolutions of the Executives would do.
Col. Hickman : Do I understand the brethren to say that if I have authority for
settlement and offer the other for negotiation, that does not bind either party? Hear
this: " Resolved : i. That we willingly and gladly trust to him to represent our sen¬
timent in offering a compromise to those who have been estranged from us, and we
pledge ourselves to abide by whatever arrangements he may make or perfect."
Mr. Malins : Who is that signed by?
Col. Hickman : It is a conference.
Mr. Gladstone: Are those who are represented by the "We" the Grand
Lodges themselves or their Executives ?
Col. Hickman : Do you think it would be anyone else ? It is a conference of
Executives.
Mr. Gladstone: Is it from the R.W.G.L.?
Col. Hickman : No; it is from the South.
Mr. Gladstone: From what parties in the South? Can you give us a decision
of any Grand Lodge, or of its Executive?
Col. Hickman: Yes ; Kentucky, by an unanimous vote.
Mr. Gladstone : If you have the decision of any Grand Lodges or Grand Lodge
Executives, then that would be amply sufficient to go upon. A conference of
individual men is of no earthly service, inasmuch as that represents nobody.
Col. Hickman : The Grand Lodge of Kentucky has met since I left America.
These propositions have been laid before it, and I have received a telegram from the
G. W. S. that they were unanimously adopted.
Mr. Malins : What propositions were adopted ?
Col. Hickman : Propositions which I will not name now.
Mr. Gladstone : I am not satisfied yet. I am satisfied as to Kentucky. But
FIRST DAY.
15
it is only one of several. I want to know distinctly and definitely are there any
other Grand Lodge Executives or Grand Lodges that have given this definite
authority ? If so, how many?
Col. Hickman : Embraced in my authority, I could name twelve or thirteen.
Mr. Gladstone : Uhey have given you this authority. If so, I am satisfied to
go on.
Col. Hickman : I will give you the names if you desire it.
Mr. Gladstone: It is very important.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Col. Hickman has stated he has twelve or thirteen.
Why delay the meeting ?
Mr. Malins : I am exceedingly sorry so much time is going without approaching
the point. Col. Hickman informs us he comes with the authority of twelve or thirteen
Southern Grand Lodges ; he thinks it is that number. We ask him for the names.
Col. Hickman : Oh! I will read them.
Mr. Malins : It is conceded that where a Grand Lodge has not met the delibera¬
tions of the Executive shall be accepted as sufficient. We don't want so much the
names of any of the members of those Grand Lodges that may chance to have met
together in some irregular fashion; we want the authoritative certificates of the
^Executives, or representatives of the Executives, of the bodies duly certified.
Col. Hickman read the names of officers of the Grand Lodges of Alabama,
Kentucky, South Carolina, Arkansas, Florida, Maryland, Missouri, Tennessee,
Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia.
Mr. Gladstone : Then I understand that the Grand Lodges now mentioned
by Col. Hickman have either as lodges or by their Executives given formal authority
to Col. Hickman to present to us certain proposals. My point is not that those now
named as individuals, but that the Grand Lodges or the Executives named, have
done so.
Col. Hickman : They signed their names officially.
Mr. Gladstone : Was it*a simple conference?
Col. Hickman : It was at a conference.
Mr. Gladstone : I am anxious to get a deliverance not of a conference, but of
Grand Lodges and Grand Lodge Executives ; the Executives in the absence of the
Grand Lodge decision would be satisfactory.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Would not a conference to which the Executives had
sent their chief officers, would not the deliverance of that have weight?
Chairman : If they were representatives to the conference, and had authority,
the representatives being bound.
Mr. Malins : I wish to ask whether Col. Hickman is prepared to declare that
those who have signed that document, and whose names he has read out, were at the
conference as the elected representatives, the authorised representatives of their
respective Executive Committees or Grand Lodges.
Mr. M'Donald : I object to this course with Col. Hickman. I think we ought
to take his word as a gentleman, and that he holds that paper in bona fides.
Mr. Malins : I rise to explain that it is Col. Hickman's word as a gentleman
that I am asking for now; I am waiting for him to give his word that those who have
signed the document were the elected representatives of their Grand Lodges. He
has not yet given his word. I suppose he was present at that meeting.
Col. Hickman : I was.
Mr. Malins : I do think it advisable he should give us his word in this matter. I
ask him if the whole of those who signed that document were there as the repre¬
sentatives properly chosen of the Grand Lodges or their Executives ?
Mr. Stockbridge : As you have heard the signatures, a character would be
given to the document thereby accordingly.
Mr. Gladstone : But it is objected to read the whole of the document.
i6
FIRST DAY.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I regret we are not now in the midst of the real matter
in dispute. May I ask the gentlemen on the opposite side whether they would not
be prepared to go on with the conference, supposing these parties who have signed
the document officially representing the Executives of the Grand Lodges had not been
formally authorised to sign it?
Mr. Gladstone : I should like to answer that. But*! should1 like an answer to
the first question. But I will say in answer (we want definitely to know just where
we are) we are ready to enter into conference provided the parties whose names have
now been read were the duly authorised representatives of their Grand Lodges, or
Grand Lodge Executives, when they gave the authority that Col. Hickman has now
submitted. If they were not that, we cannot proceed to conference upon that basis.
Col. Hickman : The conference was held by representatives of R. W. G. L. That
is the authority for the conference which was held, and which is an additional authority
to me to act for the Southern Grand Lodges individually. But the real authority for this
conference is from the R.W.G.L. representatives, with the representatives on the
other side. There is no disputing that we are duly accredited to hold this conference
with you. If you insist on our credentials, they are here.
Mr. Pyper : I am glad to hear this, and I should think there should be no hesi¬
tancy in answering the question as to position. It,is necessary before we can come to
an authoritative decision, that we should know. Supposing Col. Hickman has au¬
thority to decide a bona fide reunion to-day1, we should be glad for the conference to
start from the facts just as they are. For I have hope there will be reunion some day
for the sake of the great cause. But then Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha
know, and we all know, that a number of brethren meeting in conference, that their
deliverance as a conference would not be binding on the respective Grand Lodges.
Their Grand Lodges might say that though Col. Hickman did the best he could,
they repudiated the decision.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : May I not reply in the same strain ? You might go back
also to your Grand Lodges, and your action might be repudiated.
Mr. Pyper : But our Grand Lodges have come to a definite decision, and elected
their Executives. And the Executive has Grand Lodge powers between Grand Lodge
sessions. Our Executives have met unitedly, and we have been authorised to nego¬
tiate with Col. Hickman. Those Grand Lodges named by Col. Hickman have not
authorised their representatives, or at least Col. Hickman does not say, that their
Executives have met and authorised them to give the power to act on their behalf.
Mr. M'Donald was sorry to hear this discussion continued, because, as it ap¬
peared to him, the brethren on the opposite (British) side had issued a document in a
legal light more than in the light of Faith, Hope, and Charity.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : In reply to Mr. Pyper, we are the representatives of the
R.W.G.L., not of the Southern Grand Lodges ; and we are authorised to negotiate
with you. This is a mere incidental matter, brought up by Col. Hickman to meet the
statement that he would not be authorised by the different Grand Lodges. Our
credentials are from the R.W.G.L.
Mr. Gladstone : I feel very much the importance of the point raised; and with
all deference to Bro. M'Donald, we must not now take any matters for granted, I
am aware our brethren have been sent here by others than the Grand Lodges of the
South. They come seeking reunion with us. I find their authority so far as the
minutes are concerned of the body which the Doctor says he strictly represents.
Mr. M'Donald : No, We come seeking you to reunite with us.
Mr. Gladstone : Never mind these little matters. We have had a long fight
as to "which was which." I find that the party or body which the Doctor says you
strictly represent resolved that the R.W.G.T., Dr. Oronhyatekha, and Bro. Russell
should be sent as representatives "to promote the interests of the Order in Great
Britain and Ireland, or any other jurisdiction." Now I want you to note that they
come to-day with proposals for reunion, and with the intimation that the parties con¬
cerned have authorised them to make certain proposals. This resolution from the
body they represent has in it no statement to that effect; and we learn there are other
parties who have given a distinct authority. I think, sir, you will sustain us in this.
FIRST DAY.
17
point, that _ we must learn what the position of these parties is. Are they repre¬
senting their Grand Lodges or their Grand Lodge Executives ? For you can easily
gather together in America or in England 10, 15, 20, 100 people in a conference ; but
what does it mean? I stated that if Col. Hickman had the decision, of twelve
Executives of Grand Lodges, we ought to go on that footing. If not, let us go on
another footing.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : There can be no dispute as to our credentials from the
R.W.G.L. for proposals for reunion.
Mr. Gladstone : There is no proposal for reunion in the minutes of the
R.W.G.L. I call for definite information. We want to know if you are accredited
representatives of Southern Grand Lodges.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Do you accept us as the authorised representatives of the
R.W.G.L. ?
Mr. Gladstone : No, I should think not. How can I ?
Mr. Stockbridge urged that the document should be read in its entirety. The
question was as to the genuineness of the official character of the signatures. Those
signatures had been read ; but he submitted the document should have been read first.
Mr. Gladstone : I am very glad to hear that.
Mr. Pyper : That was the point we took.
Mr. Malins : The course taken with regard to the alleged authority is singular.
We have at present simply heard one of the paragraphs containing the names. If
Col. Hickman has that document as an authority for warranting his negotiation, I think
not a portion of it should be read only. I entirely agree with the point mooted by
Bro. Stockbridge, though he represents the other side, that we should have the whole
document. Perhaps the beginning will indicate its character. Indeed, I ask for the
document to be placed before the Chairman so that a copy may be put in the pro¬
ceedings of this conference. I think that is a request; well, I cannot see how it can
be refused. How anyone can bring credentials and not let the whole of them be seen
I do not understand.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We regard that as a mere incidental matter. Then this-
would have been placed before the body entire, and subjected for your scrutiny. But
I am glad we did not do it, for we are likely to be put put of court altogether. It
seems we are not to be accepted as the accredited representatives of the R. W. G. L.
Mr. Gladstone : Explain.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : When I get through.
Mr. Gladstone : I accept at once Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha as the
accredited representatives of the body which they regard as the R.W.G.L. What I
meant when I said "No" was that I do not to-day recognise their body as the
R.W.G.L. of the World inasmuch as I think I am representing it.
Chairman : I think you had better leave that out altogether.
Mr. Malins : But a question involving it was put.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It does not matter to me how you put it. We are herfr
to represent a R.W.G.L. from which you_ lately separated yourselves. Whether you
will accept us as its accredited representatives or not is with you. If not, then we are
clearly placed out of court. But, as Bro. Gladstone has stated, he does accept us as
the accredited representatives of the R.W.G.L.
Mr. Gladstone: No.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Hear me out. Of the R.W.G.L. over which Col.
Hickman presides. Then I assume we can go on; and incidentally, in the consideration
of the proposals for the basis of reunion, these other matters may or may not come up.
" Your committee recommend that all the powers as to the disaffected brothers may be
placed in the hands of your Executive Committee." And they deputed the power to
the R. W.G.T. and myself. It is clear, then, we are the accredited representatives of
the R.W.G.L., and are ready to meet you as gentlemen on an equal footing, and see
if we can agree upon a basis of union honourable alike to yourselves and your body
C
i8
FIRST DAY.
and to ourselves and our body. If the other matters come up, then is the time to
present this document, and not before.
Mr. Gladstone : I am perfectly satisfied so far, and the brother will give me
credit that I am not trying to fence, though I am trying to get a fair understanding.
I recognise at once that these brethren on the other side are the fully accredited repre¬
sentatives of those from whom we separated, as they recognise us as representatives of
those who have separated. The reason why all this has come up is the cause of the
intimation of the authority with which Col. Hickman is invested. When asked for
his authority he produces this document. He is therefore only a representative of
those from whom he comes. If he produces it, and intimates that, we will accept it.
chairman: After the reading of the last resolution I think the question of
authority, so far as representing the R.W.G.L. with which they are associated, need
not be discussed. If they are prepared to offer what they offered in June to this
conference as propositions on which they wish to form a basis for discussion for
reunion, we may get at once to the point.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We are prepared to offer everything that is in the laws of
the R.W.G.L. It is the testimony of the brethren themselves that those laws are all
right. We are prepared to offer this—the Substitute without the concluding clause,
of which my good friend Bro. Pyper gives the following testimony:—"Dr. Oron¬
hyatekha, a Red Indian, of whom many of you have heard me speak in terms of
respect and admiration, strangely moved a substitute which affirmed all we could
desire about equal rights of men in words, but contained the following contradictory
sentence." Now, we offer it without the " contradictory sentence," though we claim
it is not a " contradictory sentence." We offer this, brethren, my substitute without
"the tail with the stingand if they want anything more under the laws of the
R.W.G.L., we shall be happy to grant it. And we may adduce as an additional
testimony, so that there may be no objection to our terms, the testimony of the United
Executives of Great Britain and Ireland, signed by Bros. Malins, Gladstone, Morgan,
and Pyper, with the official seals of their Grand Lodges:-—"The R.W.G.L. has
always recognised the equality of men, and has admitted negroes as representatives
to it; has hitherto failed to induce the Grand Lodges of some Southern States to
•accord a similar recognition." But there is an additional testimony from the manifesto
that the laws of the R.W.G.L. are all right with regard to this negro question.
Therefore we offer the substitute, which by concurrent testimony is all right, without
the objectionable part. There is our offer. Will you accept it?
Mr. Malins : I can pretty quickly take up that, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Oron¬
hyatekha says we admit the laws of the R.W.G.L. are all right. I shall want to read
just that paragraph in the circular referred to. I must say in brief, however, that I
do not know when we ever did say that the laws of the R.W.G.L. are all right in the
sense used by the Doctor. So far as they went there was nothing in them to exclude
the negro; at least so we supposed when writing that circular; but to our amazement
we learned at Louisville that in 1866, after slavery was abolished, the constitution of
the Grand Lodge of Kentucky was submitted to the R.W.G.L. with the word "white"
in it, excluding all the blacks from the Order. My authority is Tim. Needham, who
declared it in R.W.G.L., 1866 ; and that one friend in R.W.G.L. asked if I knew
who was in the chair at the time, meaning to indicate that Hastings presided. That
was the very year in which Hastings' celebrated decision put at the front of this
substitute was made, when R.W.G.T. Hastings decided that the Order recognised no
more difference in a man's skin than in the colour of his hair; and at that same session
the R.W.G.L. approved of the constitution of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky with
"white" in it, and by which they had ever since excluded coloured people from the
Order. So that the record of the R. W. G. L. is not so clear as we supposed. In other
words, it stultified itself and ratified exclusion of the black man from the Order. .The
point is that the R.W.G.L. laws are all right. I was showing that its acts are not all
right in the case preferred. If we believed the laws of the R.W.G.L. are all right,
and adequate to the evil, we would not have proposed an alteration in the constitution
of that body. But its records prove that they were not sufficiently complete to be
effective for the introduction of the black man, that we judged they were not all right,
i.e., they were not adequate. I shall not enlarge upon this point. I think it can be
FIRST DAY.
*9
brought into a nutshell. It has been repeatedly declared as a point that our opponents
have declared we cannot get over, that there is nothing in the constitution to exclude
the black man. We knew that. But we learn that the black man was excluded.
It was not the question with us whether there is anything in the constitution that
ensures his exclusion, but whether there is something in it that provides all reasonable
means for his admission ; and believing that it did not have that in it which adequately
meets the case, we proposed to put it in. It was an error in the constitution, an error
of omission, so far as that constitution was concerned, rather than of commission. The
thing is put so far as the constitution is concerned, namely, that the constitution did
not commit the wrong, but there was not that in it which prevented its commission.
The whole thing was put in a nutshell by the Hon. J. J. Talbott in a little document, a
portion of which reads as follows :—I. " Some of the Grand Lodges by constitutional
provisions, and othei's by usage, refuse the privileges and benefits of our Order on
account of colour. 2. There is no remedy for the violation of the acknowledged spirit of
our Order in the constitution of the R.W.G.L. 3. The evil is constitutional in
omission in the R.W.G.L., and in positive enactment in some Grand Lodges. 4. The
remedy, to be of any use, must be of equal dignity, or authority, with the authority of
the wrong complained of and admitted. 5. Nothing short of an amendment to the
R.W.G.L. constitution, reserving the right to the R.W.G.L. to correct this evil, will
answer the demands of justice and right. 6. The substitute is not an amendment,
but merely a resolution. 7, We have tried since 1866 the remedy proposed by the
substitute, and the evil has not abated one jot."
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I understand, then, one of the principal reasons for the
division was in the omission to do its duty on the part of the R.W.G.L. I am,glad
to receive that testimony, that the wrong is not in commission, but in omission.
Mr. Malins : I rise to explain. I say the wrong has been committed, but that
the conditions of the R.W.G.L. did not provide for it to be committed. Neither did
it prevent its commission.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I shall be justified in taking it, then, that it is an offence
of omission so far as the constitution is concerned, and not one of commission. That
confirms what I contend, that the constitution does not exclude the negro, that the
laws of the R.W.G.L. do not exclude the negro. It is'an omission, then, that can be
easily remedied with the R.W.G.L. I understand, also, you take it that the charter
of the Kentucky Grand Lodge being granted in 1856, the year of Hastings'celebrated
decision, shows that the R.W.G.L., through its chief officers, was not sincere in
giving that decision. All I'can say is, it is to be regretted that a matter which con¬
cerns the very life of our noble Order should be decided upon the testimony of any
one member of the R.W.G.L., or of any ten members of the R.W.G.L. But I hold
that it should not have been so decided, but by the body itself. Many things are said
on the floor of the house not in accordance with facts, and which go unnoticed. It is
an unfortunate thing this division should have taken place, or that this fact, if it be a
fact, should have been a contributing element to the driving of our brethren from our
ranks, viz., that the approval of the Grand Lodge constitution of Kentucky occurred
in the same year. If you will consult the record, you will find this is an error. The
Grand Lodge constitution of Kentucky was not approved in that year.
Mr. Malins : Then in what year was it approved ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha: October 14th, 1864, some years before Hastings' decision,
prior to the raising of the colour question in the Order in the manner in which it was
raised there. Therefore one of the main elements is now proved to be erroneous,
because the Grand Lodge Constitution was not granted in the same year. The Grand
Lodge Journal of 1866, the year of Hastings' decision, says the number of the last
report was 621, that is, in the report for 1865, the Kentucky Grand Lodge had that
number of members. The year before it had 621; and therefore it had an existence
before 1865. There was another Grand Lodge instituted in 1855, and the Grand
Lodge as it now exists was organised in October, 1864, and before the raising of
the coloured question in the Order, almost immediately after the emancipation of the
slaves. I say I have to express my regret that matters of such great moment should
have been decided or influenced by the statement of members of the R.W.G.L. on
the floor of the house in the heat of debate.
20
FIRST DAY.
Mr. MALINS: I shall be glad to take up the points of the Doctor and draw
them out. In the first place, our separation did not arise from this fact. We were
ignorant of this incident.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I rise to correct the brother. My statement was that I
regretted that under the utterances of a member the R.W.G.L. should have been a
contributing element to induce the brother to depart from us. They took that as an
evidence that the R.W.G.L. through its R.W.G.T. was insincere in approving the
constitution in the same year.
Mr. Gladstone : It is a straw in a very large bundle indeed.
Mr. Malins : It is an incident we were unacquainted with when we drew up
the manifesto. , I wish to be understood that we had charitably supposed in the
manifesto that this constitution had been submitted in the days of slavery, when the
law of the land only recognised these people as "goods and chattels." The next
point is the shifting of the date back for two years, if correct.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Do you not admit it is correct ?
Mr. Malins : No, sir. The fact that it took place two years before or later does
not make it any the less iniquitous, particularly seeing that slavery was abolished at
the time, when the constitution was approved; I mean at the date given by Dr.
Oronhyatekha as being that when it was approved.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I have not given the dates, except from the Journals.
Mr. Malins : The Doctor has read the date when he alleges this was approved,
and I suppose he is not prepared to say that slavery was a legal institution in Ken¬
tucky at that time. That being so, if he be correct as to date, it makes this gross
thing simply a little less glaring, seeing it has not been decided at the same session
when Hastings gave his oft-quoted decision. But note this, Dr. Oronhyatekha
referred to this a little time ago in Liverpool.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I object to any reference except to statements made in
this conference. I am prepared to discuss whatever I have said at the public meetings
at the time.
Mr. Malins : Do you, sir, sustain that objection? We might rule out all the
Journals.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : They are official records. It is not because I am afraid
of the matter, but it will lead us to matters not strictly concerning us.
Chairman : I think there is point in the Doctor's objection. Let us keep to
official documents, and leave out what may have been said elsewhere.
Mr. Stockbridge : It would be out of place to quote reports of newspapers not
official. I might bring bundles of newspapers. >
Mr. Pyper : I hope you have not given that as a ruling from the chair, for it
would cripple and hamper us greatly in arriving at the truth in this matter. To get
at the facts we must have the question answered whether the negro is excluded.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : That is not my objection. The brother has proposed to
quote from a speech, whatever the quotation might be. I might be misreported; and
if we are to consider the utterances of the different parties in their public addresses,
that is a matter for consideration. I say it is foreign.
Mr. Malins : I will yield the point. I wonder what difference observations
in reports may make. If the person be present, you have the liberty of contradicting
them, if incorrect. I call attention to the fact that Dr. Oronhyatekha's declaration
that that constitution was approved in 1864 is not proved by him. He gives us the
date of the institution of the Grand Lodge, and that is the way in which he has
handled this question. He has answered our declaration that that constitution was
approved in 1866 by representing our contention just as he has to-day, that we main¬
tained that the Grand Lodge charter wag granted in 1866. We know very well it
was granted in 1864. But I have the testimony of the G. W.S. of the State that the
constitution with the word "white " in it was submitted in 1866, and this was made
in the presence of the acting G. W.C.T. of the State, and in presence of Col. Hickman,
who was three years G.W.C.T. of that State, and no one ventured to question it. I
produce the testimony of Tim Needham, made in the presence of P.G. W.C.T. and
FIRST DAY.
21
Acting G.W.C.T., that it was done in 1866; and I say the reading of the minute in
the Journal of 1864, that the charter was granted then, does not begin to approach to
the point at issue. At the same time, I say you may put it backward or forward ;
whenever it was done it was an iniquitous and abominable thing.,
Col. Hickman : As my name has been called in this, I did not go into the chair
of the G.W.C.T. till 1868 or 1869, and I could not say as to the statement of
Need ham. It should be remembered, moreover, as to slavery that it was a legal
institution in Kentucky till after the close of the war, and till the State Legislature
■could bring its laws into harmony with the Federal laws. The war did not close till
1864.
Mr. Malins : In what month ?
Col. Hickman : April or May. And many things had to go on till everything
was completed.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : When did the State Legislature meet after the war ?
Col. Hickman : In December. In addition, I think it unnecessary for brethren
in this conference to speak of things being iniquitous, that it does not matter now
about our individual expressions. Some of us have not been educated exactly as Bro.
Malins. It is not, however, entirely in good feeling to make such expressions as to
these matters. They are just as well left out. We are here in the sight of God to
do right and come to an honourable basis of reunion, and I hope we shall get at that
basis as soon as possible.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : In justification of my position, I spoke to Hastings at
our last Grand Lodge.
Mr. Kempster : I rise to order at this particular point. We have had a
decision that we are not to appeal to the testimony of reported speeches, and yet we
are asked to accept the testimony of an individual as to something someone has said
to someone else.
Chairman : The point is well taken.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then you rule us both out.
Mr. Gladstone: No; it is the authoritative statement of the R.W.G.T.,
-whilst Dr, Oronhyatekha's is a personal statement.
Mr. Kempster : I press this point; for it is quite competent for an individual
to make a statement and call a witness to prove that statement in a meeting, officially,
•of our Order; but it is another thing to say somebody told me something or other.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I will put in evidence here. I will put in the letter in the
morning bearing on this point, from Tim. Needham himself.
Mr. Malins : I should like to have the nature of the letter stated now. It is
assumed what we have never declared, viz., that the constitution of Kentucky with the
word "white" in it, and the approving of the constitution, was simultaneous with the
charter. The year is not the material point. It is since slavery was abolished, and
:as such was bad enough, of course, I say without reference to Col. Hickman. He
was not a Good Templar at the time; he joined in 1867, about the same time that
I did.
Chairman : I would put to the conference whether in debating these points
you should go back so far. The question before the conference is that virtually the
laws of the R.W.G.L. are in harmony with the rights of man ; but in certain Grand
Lodges and States of America the authorities do not execute it, and what is wanted
is some arrangement or guarantee that in those States where there is an indisposition
to execute the laws there shall be some security that the laws shall be executed, that
the negro shall have a full chance of being admitted into the Order. Can our
American brethren put anything before the conference ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha: We offer the "substitute" without the last clause.
We can discuss that seriatim, and amend it if necessary.
Mr. Gladstone : Assuming that the Grand Lodge in a State neglects or refuses
•to allow of the admission of the negro to membership into our Order, has the R. W. G. L.
now power to institute lodges in that territory until at all events the charter of the
22
FIRST DAY.
Grand Lodge has been annulled or.forfeited ? Either from the substitute or anything
el§e ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Would it not be better to consider the substitute and
see if there is no power in it ? *
Chairman : I think the question should be answered. We are getting to the
point.
Mr. Gladstone : Has the R.W.G.L. any power to institute any lodge for
negroes in that jurisdiction till the charter of the Grand Lodge has been forfeited or
annulled 1
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The R.W.G.L. has full power to organise lodges in any
jurisdiction after having obtained the assent of the existing Grand Lodge. It has
full power to organise sub and Grand Lodges in any Grand Lodge jurisdiction
after having obtained the assent of the existing Grand Lodges. That answers the
question in part. Without waiting for the forfeiture of the existing Grand Lodge
charter. Under this law, which was adopted by the R.W.G.L. at Bloomington
(Judge Black's amendment), "The R.W.G.L. has full power to organise sub and
Grand Lodges in any jurisdiction after assent has been obtained." Therefore it
has the power, without waiting to have existing Grand Lodge charter forfeited,
under the law known as Judge Black's amendment, found on p. 62, R.W.G.L.
Journal, 1865. In addition, I now say Liverpool would come in these proposals. The
R.W.G.T. has the assent of a number of Grand Lodges inviting consent to the
organisation of sub and Grand Lodge charters under that law. Therefore in advance
the Southerners have opened their territory to put this law into operation.
Mr. Gladstone : My question is hardly answered. I want to know if the
R.W.G.L. has power to institute sub lodges for negroes without the consent. Take
an instance. Supposing Kentucky refuses consent, is there any power possessed by
the R.W.G.L. now in virtue of which it can go on, the non-consent of Kentucky
notwithstanding ?
Dr, Oronhyatekha : No.
Mr. M'Donald was glad this had been raised. It would be the solution of a
great difficulty. The R.W.G.L. had given a Grand Lodge power to manage its own
affairs, and it seemed to him this was the turning point, that perhaps the power of
Grand Lodges in certain countries had been misused or abused. Evidently, the way
out of the difficulty was to call upon any Grand Lodge to say why it did not give its
consent. If that power was not there, the sooner it was there the better.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I again suggest the substitute to see if we can make it
acceptable to all. I submit as our proposition the substitute without the last clause.
If acceptable, then our conference can be brought to a happy conclusion. Or let us
consider what more is required.
Mr. Malins : If acceptable, the conference would be at an end.
Chairman : The "sting" is withdrawn.
Mr. Malins : Yes; the Doctor offers to withdraw the last clause. However,
he cannot press us to give a decision at this moment. We want to bring out the facts.
I suppose it is conceded by our friends that by the organic law of the Order colour
cannot be legally made a bar to membership. That is agreed. That is conceded.
(Hear.) The Doctor says "yes" to that.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Certainly.
Mr. Malins : Very well. I want to know whether it is contended that this
fundamental law has been well understood throughout the jurisdiction of the R. W. G. L.
Was it only well understood at the last session ? Or is the phrase of the Doctor
in the substitute, " this well understood fundamental principle," meant to imply that
it has been understood in the past in the various jurisdictions of the R.W.G.L. ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I do not think that is germane to the question. Is the
substitute without the end acceptable ? Wherein it is exceptionable we will try to
remedy it.
Mr. Malins : The Doctor absolutely asserts he offers us the substitute we wanted.
We never wanted his substitute.
FIRST DAY.
23
Dr. Oronhyatekha : i said the substitute would be declared to be acceptable.
Mr. Malins : We declare it to be "worthless.
Mr. Pyper : The Doctor is a good debater. He knew very well where to stop.
The next sentence is—"This was all the Southern Grand Lodges wanted, power to
continue the practical exclusion of the negro." That is my point. If, practically,
any Grand Lodge is permitted, with the knowledge of that Grand Lodge, to exclude
the negro, then I hold the R.W.G.L. has failed to do its duty ; and if it will not do '
it, then nothing is left. Looking upon it from a religious standpoint, we could do
nothing else but to separate from those who did a manifest injustice to any human
being.
Mr. Malins : It has been repeatedly declared by some in this meeting that the
substitute consists of words. The Doctor does not see how it can consist of aught
else. No more do I. Sentences are made of words. He directs us to discuss the
substitute.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I beg your pardon. I asked if we could not go on to
the discussion of the substitute.
Mr. Malins : I take up a sentence of the substitute, and he wants to know if I
am going to bother about words. These are some of the words referred to : ■' There¬
fore resolved that any provision in the constitution or bye-laws of any Grand Lodge
that in any manner contravenes this well-understood fundamental principle of the
Order." I ask whether this fundamental principle of the Order is and has been well
understood ? Is there any contention of ignorance on the part of the Southerners
with reference to it ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha: The proper course would be to consider the substitute
seriatim, and we shall then consider it in its proper course. But if they require an
answer before they enter upon its consideration seriatim, then I say it was well under¬
stood, as the declarations of the R.W.G.L. have been that there could be no distinction
as to race or colour, that all men are equal in its laws. I am justified in assuming that
it was well understood.
Mr. Malins: Does Col. Hickman ratify that ?
Col. Hickman : I do; the principle of equality. The law of the R.W.G.L. knew
no difference.
Mr. Malins : Does the Colonel mean what I mean on this matter, that the law,
the organic law of the Order, was well understood ? I do not mean that the negroes,
if sent to the R.W.G.L., would get in. Our opponents have told us we say they have
been excluded. We know better. They have been admitted. The point is, seeing
that this principle of equal rights to membership so far as colour is concerned was a
fundamental principle, was it well understood to the membership in the Order, to
applicants for membership in the Order not applicants for membership in R.W.G.L.?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : So far as the applicants for membership are concerned
I have nothing to say. I should imagine it would not be well understood by outsiders,
and I would not be surprised if many of our members themselves did not understand
it. But among our representative men it was well understood.
Mr. Malins : I must press my question.
Mr. Capper : I want to say something about that question.
Mr. Malins : It is not finished yet. I wish to ask Col. Hickman, as having
done more than any man living in the Southern States, whether, if the negro has been
excluded in most of the Southern States, he thinks those who excluded him could
properly plead a want of knowledge of this fundamental principle of the Order ? Was
this fundamental principle, in the judgment of Col. Hickman, well understood in the
Southern States?
Col. Hickman: If we take up the latter part of the substitute to answer that
question and then return to the other parts, I do not think it is a fair way of getting
at the question.
Chairman : I agree somewhat. But we are coming to the point.
Col. Hickman : Then I will answer. If I am forced to give a reply, by your
24
FIRST DAY.
■decision, to Bro. Malins' question at this juncture, it will be necessary, and will take
me some length of time to go over the question in which Mr. Malins is involved, as
well, as anyone else. Therefore, to take up the time on the latter part of the substitute,
"which it is proposed to consider seriatim, is not fair. You are putting questions with¬
out suggesting any way for harmonising our differences. It would take up some time
because there are some records to be referred to. We have part of those records here,
if not all of them. But I undertake to say in a conference like this, when it is pur¬
posed to consider any part of a document in debate, it is an unfair way, not inten¬
tional, to commence at the latter part of the document.
Di>. Oronhyatekha : To select some point in it.
Col. Hickman : And to ask questions upon it. I am willing to take it from the
commencement, and go through it. Give me time on it, and I will, in as concise and
definite a manner as possible, answer Bro. Malins' questions.
Mr. Capper : I am not a lawyer, and I like to get at things as straight as I can,
for they are easier understood. The question arises, has this matter been a well-under¬
stood principle of the R.W.G.L. ?
Mr. Gladstone: That is not it. The R.W.G.L. was not in the question.
Mr. Malins repeated the question : Do you admit that by the organic law of
the Order colour cannot legally be regarded as a bar to membership ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I said, Yes. . I regard colour as no bar so far as our
organic law is concerned. Each member of the deputation is equally bound with me
unless he contradicts it. The Colonel answers with me.
Mr. Malins : Then my second question is : Do you admit that the fundamental
law of the Order has been misunderstood throughout the jurisdiction of the R.W.G.L. ?
I afterwards altered it to this: Whether in the judgment of Col. Hickman it had been
well understood in the Southern States in which he had laboured?
Mr. Capper thought the first way of putting it was the fairest. If, out of sixty
Grand Lodges, forty kept the law, it must be a well-understood principle. A minority
might violate the law. If so, how shall the minority be brought to book for violation ?
Mr. M'DonALD said he was astonished to hear G.W.C.T.s putting such
questions. Even Mr. Gladstone had said that nothing tried his patience so much as
the ignorance of those who would question him. Had he not complained ?
Mr. Gladstone : I never did complain of the ignorance of those who sent me
questions relative to law. I complained of those who sent questions which
should not have been sent; and it tried my temper to be pestered with things we
ought not to have been troubled with.
Chairman : That is a remark that should not have been made.
Mr. M'donald explained: He thought it right he should explain. Mr.
Gladstone ought to be expefted to answer as to the ability of the people to understand
things. On this side of the Channel there were too many carelessly ignorant of the
Order.
Mr. Malins : It will save time if I say this : That I must pledge my right to
pursue my own course in this meeting. I am here to answer any number of questions
from the other side ; and if I want a little time, I will ask for time ; and I do not
think our interests will be helped by declaring or intimating that I ought not to put
questions. I will alter that question to such a shape that Col. Hickman can answer
it without searching any records. I ask him whether he has always, or has since he
first became an officer of R. W.G.L., well understood this fundamental law.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I interpose here an objection to this irregular proceeding',
and beg the conference to take up the substitute if they choose to do so, and consider
it seriatim ; and when we reach the points on which Bro. Malins or other brethren
desire to ask questions, Col. Hickman will be very glad to answer. If the substitute
is not a basis on which we can agree, let-it be so declared by the other side. Let us
now proceed to its consideration as a basis.
Mr. Malins : I press my question. It is a question of Col. Hickman's own
knowledge,
FIRST DAY.
25
Chairman : I must leave it to you, that I do not think it essential; it may
illustrate the position of the membership in the Southern States to answer the
question. Perhaps that is Bro. Malms' wish.
Mr. Malins : I do not ask him at present whether he can speak for the know¬
ledge of others in the South.
Col. Hickman : At the proper time I will answer both questions definitely ;
but I do not think it proper now to answer them.
Mr. Pyper: I would not like to press the question ifhe thinks it unfair, and declines
at the same time, though it is not so irregular as Dr. Oronhyatekha seems to take it,
for the preceding parts of the substitute are only repetitions of the decisions of the
R.W.G.L. If Col. Hickman would answer the questions, we should get at the
marrow of the point in dispute.
Mr. Gladstone : I understand that the substitute has been submitted to us.
It seems to me that as those who approach with a view to reunion we ought lo have
some say as to how our side of the case is to be conducted. We have the distinct
intimation made by the Colonel that he will be prepared to answer any questions that
may be submitted. I do not at all deny that we have some questions to put. If it
is to be understood, however, that we are to be bound down to consider after a
given fashion, then I think the sooner the understanding is brought out the better;
but I submit to you that in this matter it is unwise to bind down to any form, and
that anyone should put a question which he should consider germane to this matter.
I think this question is germane. I support Bro. Malins in asking for an answer.
But if Col. Hickman is not ready, I shall be willing to wait.
Mr. Stockbridge submitted that the question was. irrelevant.
Mr. Turnbull, secretary of conference, rose to a point of order.
Mr. Stockbridge asked if the secretary had any locus standi to speak.
Dr. Oronhyatekha raised the point if it was competent for the secretary to
speak.
Mr. Gladstone : Bro. Turnbull is a member of our delegation.
Chairman : Leave the matter of relevancy to me. If you dispute it, appeal
to me.
Mr. Stockbridge : Then I will make an observation. I thought if Bro. Glad¬
stone set forth his views why the question should be put, surely an observation might
be made by some one to show why it should not be put. This question seems to me
to be put before us for the purpose of extracting something which is not before us, in
assuming that the whole of Kentucky violated the law.
Mr. Turnbull rose to a point of order.
Chairman : You must not " assume."
Mr. Stockbridge : I am assuming the wrong being done in Kentucky.
Chairman : I think the Colonel will make a statefnent on this point to-morrow
morning. But if he thinks the question is not relevant, and I can coincide with his
judgment, I would do so.
Mr. Stockbridge : Supposing the wrong had been done to the brethren in
Kentucky, we are here to see if the remedy has not been put into operation, that it
may be remedied for the future.
Mr. Gladstone : My good friend does not know the reason why the questions
are put.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Let it be distinctly understood I have no desire, nor do
I think the Colonel has any desire, to shirk any question, whether against our position
or for us. But we simply say, if it please you, we do not say you must conduct your
business in a particular way. Why not go the usual way of adopting the substitute
seriatim? My Bro. Pyper says it is all acceptable down to the resolution; if so, let us
adopt it; and when we reach that point I am sure the R.W.G.T. will answer any
question. Do you object to take that course ?
Mr. Gladstone : I object to take that course. I have an opinion as to how
2 6
FIRST DAY.
this should be conducted. I am willing to give the Colonel ten or twenty hours to-
make up his mind. '
Mr. Malins : We are called together to discuss the whole question, and at
least we are dealing with the question in the substitute. The previous portions are
the preamble ; and unless we are precluded to put questions as to the point, and are
fully at liberty, I had better go home. It is a pure waste of time unless we enter
thoroughly into both sides of that constitution under which they have had to work i
"No person can be admitted to membership in this Order unless he believes in the
existence of Almighty God as the Ruler and Governor of all things, and is willing to
take our pledge for life. Under this rule we welcome all classes to our Order."
That has been, and is, the constitution, printed in the constitutions of ten out of the
sixteen Grand Lodges in the Southern States. And when that is the case, is it too
much to ask if it has been generally understood whether by the organic law of the
Order persons cannot be legally excluded on account of colour ? It is a question which
the Colonel could pretty easily answer ; and if he had any hesitation about the
knowledge of the others working under this constitution, whether he did not know of
his own knowledge that that has been the organic law of the Order from the time he
began to be an "officer of the R.W.G.L. in 1871, I do not say I would like a reply,
but I sit down to see if a reply is given. If it is not given we must pass on, and he
must give a reply at any time he sees fit.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : All we objected to was the time these questions were-
put. We have said when the discussion comes to them in the natural course we will
answer.
Col. Hickman : I did not object to answer any lawful questions, and I have so>
declared myself. I very well understand, I think, the object that my brethren have
in asking these questions; and I can so connect them in the first question he asked,
that it will come under the same answer I propose to give at length. I could not
disconnect the two ; and I shall not hesitate one single solitary moment at the proper
time to answer them fully and fairly. I have necessarily to go over some ground that
it would not be pertinent or proper to take up at this present time ; and not that I am
not ready to answer the questions, but because the answers and explanations apper¬
taining thereto would not be proper at this time. I am not asking for time on the
questions, but there are other connections which you cannot take away. Understand-
that I do not intend to consume the time of the conference by refusing to answer any
question. This thing is tearing me to pieces. I want it settled ; and if we find we
cannot settle it, but must part, we will part as Christians, and do our duty as
the Christian friends of humanity.
Chairman : It is generally recognised by all present that in principle the-
R.W.G.L. acknowledges all; but there are difficulties in the execution of the law on
account of the prejudices of certain States and Grand Lodges ; and what is wanted is
some clause inserted that shall authorise a power to the R.W.G.L. to invade such
States and start sub-lodges, or give power to suspend charters of Grand Lodges who
do not do their duty. (Hear.) I do not find that point in the substitute.
Mr. Gladstone : My amendment will do that.
Mr. M'Donald : That would necessitate an alteration in both Grand Lodge and
R.W.G.L. constitutions.
Mr. Kempster : I feel the point of your suggestion. We have on our side sub¬
mitted what we think would provide the remedy and ensure a recognition of equal
rights, viz., the amendment by Bro. Gladstone. The substitute of the Doctor is a
declaration of what ought to be, but Dr. Oronhyatekha should show this conference
how the adoption of that substitute would provide the remedy; and if it would not
provide the remedy, then Dr. Oronhyatekha and Col. Hickman should submit some¬
thing that will provide such remedy. So long as they decline to do that, we have
some cause of complaint.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We have declined to do no such thing. I have said if the
substitute is inadequate let us put something in it to make it so. Then to be accused
of declining to do so is contrary to what we said we would do. Now, then, must we
put everything before you ? Are you not going to give us any help ? If so, we are
FIRST DAY.
2 J
willing to assume the responsibility and try and do the work. But we come here as
a conference, and we ask you to assist us to perfect this substitute, if it is not perfected
by the adoption of the means which shall be satisfactory to you and ourselves. I
trust we shall throw away these unnecessary observations that we are not willing, and
that it is infinitely difficult to get answers ; for these are beside the question. Let us
as a conference agree upon something mutually satisfactory.
Mr. Gladstone : I do not want that we should be diverted from the real facts
of the case. It has never been forgotten that we have put before the R.W.G.L. that
which we considered to be satisfactory. We have no substitute for our amendment;
none. We separated, believing that the substitute of Dr. Oronhyatekha, which was
adopted by that body, was not satisfactory. We have not withdrawn our amendment,
and have no intention unless we get its equivalent, or something more than it is.
Col. Hickman : Do I understand that you offer that as a substitute for the
Doctor's substitute ?
Mr. Gladstone : This is what we consider necessary to remedy the wrong. The
Doctor is asking us now not to leave on his side the entire responsibility of bringing,
out what we consider to be necessary. The responsibility is not on that side. We
have advanced with what we consider to be necessary, and we stand to-day just where
we stood at Louisville, believing this to be absolutely necessary, or '' something
more."
Col. Hickman : Something more than your amendment.
Mr. Gladstone: I was referring just then to a remark from the Doctor that his
substitute gave " something more " than my amendment. Do you withdraw it ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : No, I do not withdraw it.
Mr. Gladstone: My point is, we reckon this amendment necessary to remedy
the wrong which we hold exists. We do not see how we can take less than this
amendment or its equivalent. We are quite prepared to take more, and we think we
could easily get more.
Mr. Malins : What do you mean ?
Mr. Gladstone: The unity of the races altogether.
Mr. Malins : From where ?
Mr. 'Gladstone : From the other side of the house.
Mr. Malins : That we can get more 1
Mr. Gladstone : What I mean is that this is simply the least we have thought
we could take. It is the least we can take now.
Mr. Malins : Does that phrase, that you think you could get more mean a
Scotch "more?" He means that he thinks we could legitimately demand more than
that.
Mr. Gladstone : Yes, and get it.
Mr. Kempster : If they give it.
Mr. Gladstone : I think so. And I think they ought to give it; and that is-
more ! (Mr. Gladstone then requoted his amendment.)
Col. Hickman : The adoption of that would also, whilst striking out, rescind
the Black amendment as to Dual Grand Lodges.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It would be so.
Mr. Gladstone : This would give perfect satisfaction and reunion at once.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Do you offer that then ?
Mr. Gladstone : I should be glad to do so.
Mr. Malins : In offering it, we do so because our friends keep asking us what
we want. We do not offer it in the sense that we demand, as we have been repre¬
sented, that we have every syllable or word, a phrase that has been repeatedly quoted,
but which never dropped from any of our lips. It is the thing we want.
Col. Hickman : From the words that fall from the brother's lips, he must have
reference to something I have said.
FIRST DAY.
Mr. MALINS : I don't know; I think not.
Chairman : I do not take it in that sense at all.
Col. Hickman : He says we are not to take one letter of that amendment. It
is a fact that I went to Bro. Gladstone, who used similar words, that that was their
-compromise, and he would not take a single letter less than it contained.
Mr. Gladstone : It is always an awkward thing to raise a contradiction to
-anyone. I say at once I never yet said to Col. Hickman, or any other, that I would
not accept any alteration of a word or anything else. What I said to Col. Hickmaa
and others publicly and privately was this : that that which was contained in my
amendment was the least we could take, and that we would not abate one single jot
of the demand.
Chairman : It is the principle.
Col. Hickman : What I stated is what I understood him to say.
Mr. Gladstone : I am glad it is merely a misunderstanding, but it is a grievous
one, because it is hardly likely we were going to fight about the best manner in which
a certain proposition could be expressed. What I said was, as I have said just now,
this was the least we could take. I said it without reference to the manner of
f expression. It was the thing that was expressed that I spoke of.
Chairman : Well, can our American brethren satisfy the English Good Templars
.on this point, that where a Grand Lodge refuses to do its duty, somebody shall step
in and make them amenable for neglect of duty?
Mr. Gladstone : At the R.W.G.L. session we presented an amendment
which would do this. We have never withdrawn it. We intimate to-day we stand
by the amendment, and we say its principles will satisfy us.
Mr. Malins : We do not mean the affirmation of the principle. We have had
sufficient of that. It says that that would prove a pretty efficient remedy for the evil;
and we offer it to-day. We say we have no additional demand, but we know it
cannot be made law by this meeting.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then do you mean that I should understand you that you
.are asking now what you know this conference cannot grant. Let us understand.
Mr. Malins : I should have shown my position in a moment. We do not come
here, in fact, to ask anything. We come here to know what you have to offer. You
•say, what do you demand ? We. say we did want that, and we don't want any more
now. We did put it to you at the time when you could grant it.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: No.
Mr. Malins : On that point I shall be happy to grapple with the Doctor,
-namely, the point he now moots, that our motion was unconstitutional. If so, all my
knowledge of the Order goes for nothing. I will prove it to be constitutional. Our
proposition was for an amendment to the constitution. We offered it in the form of
an.amendment tolhe constitution because we felt that the evil was of such a nature
that nothing but a constitutional change could remedy it. That was why we offered
it. Had we offered it as a resolution, or in the form of a substitute, a bare majority
would carry it. So it made our position more difficult to offer it as an amend¬
ment to the constitution; for only by embodying it in the constitution could the
principles of the Order be made effective. The adoption of that in the form of a
resolution by the body will not put it into the constitution. That is no fault of ours.
You ask us if we offer impossible conditions. I say we offer nothing. We come to
hear you. Seeing you refused our ultimatum, we separated. We could put no motion
on your Journal. You here have no power to amend your constitution. Yet it is an
amendment of the constitution, or an equivalent, if you have an equivalent, that we
want. If you will give it here, with what in our judgment will be satisfactory
guarantees, we will accept it. We do not ask you to adopt that if you can give us an
■equivalent. This substitute, we may say at once, does not satisfy us.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Even without the last clause ?
Mr. Malins : Even without the last clause. I admit that the last clause is miscon¬
strued by Southern Grand Lodges, both before you proposed it, for it was in the
..constitution, and since you proposed it, as is indicated in their official organs. I say
FIRST DAY.
29'
that that tail-piece was the sting under which those Grand Lodges could neutralise
all that had gone before, by their misconstruing it. But it was only a sting by its
relation with the subject-matter, and as read by the Southern Grand Lodges. That
last clause is in the constitution, and Dr. Oronhyatekha and myself quite agree that
it is good law in itself; but it was the abuse, the misconstruction of that law, the
misrepresentation of it by the Southerners who voted for the substitute ; it was the
abuse that they made of that power in the past, and would probably in the future,
that made us say it was the sting in the tail. It was the sting because they made it
so. It was the weapon meant to protect the Grand Lodges in their rights originally;
but it was used like a bayonet to keep the negro out of the Order, and the proof is-
so abundant I should like to be challenged to produce some of it. If you take the
sting out of the tail the substitute is simply a harmless insect, and is as worthless
in itself as it is harmless. In other words, it was the rehearsal largely of decisions
which existed years ago, which decisions have never remedied the wrong. The first
part says : " Whereas R.W.G.T. Hastings in 1866 decided, in answer to a question,
What is the law of our Order touching granting charters for lodges of members com¬
posed of African descent; and Secondly, As to the expediency of such action, that there
is no law that would interfere with the granting of charters for lodges composed of
persons of African descent." There is no law that would interfere with it. We
know that. There was no law adopted by the R. W.G.L. that would interfere with
it, perhaps, up to that moment. But as I stated at that same session, as I believe,
and the evidence so far has been on my side, that body stultified itself by ratifying a
law which did interfere with the granting of such charters. And the rehearsal of a
decision stultified at the time is of no value to us. Then he declares he thinks it
would be expedient to encourage them in every way to protect them from intem¬
perance. That is a charitable expression of opinion. Its rehearsal in itself has not
resulted in the negroes being admitted in the South. As long ago as 1866 he
declared this ; and since that time the Order has gone on with the formation of Grand
Lodges. In ten out of the sixteen Southern States occupied under that constitution
which says that "we welcome all classes to our Order," in these ten Grand Lodges
formed, I suppose most of them, by Col. Hickman, or under his immediate direction,
and since that was put as a general rule in the constitution, at the time we separated at
Louisville there was not a negro received in the jurisdiction of any one of them. I
can give you the names and dates of their formation, all of them. There were none
in four of the others ; but I speak of those under the uniform constitution under
which we have wrought.
Col. Hickman: I must correct the brother. Do you consider Maryland a
Southern State ?
Mr. Malins: It is one of the Southern States?
Col. Hickman: There are coloured people there.
Mr. MALINS : I say this ; that of the fourteen, ten of them were Grand Lodges
working under the uniform constitution which expressly says under this head, "We
welcome all classes to our Order." Now please note this: "There is no law of our
Order that would interfere with the granting of charters." Does that meet the
point ? Was there any law in the constitution of the United States—But I shall come
to that by and bye. We have already acknowledged there is no law that prevents the
granting of charters. On the contrary, the R.W.G.L. has suggested the granting.
We, however, have wanted it to enforce the granting; and there is the trouble.
Chairman : I take it we are all agreed as to these points, that whilst the law is'
a part of the Order in those Southern States, it is not recognised. The question then
is, how shall the law be altered so as to admit the negroes ?
Mr. Malins: That is just the point. My point is that the negroes mainly live
in the South, and it has been represented that a few of the Southern Grand Lodges-
might have evaded the law. My point is that the vast majority of them always have
and did until the Louisville session.
Mr. Gladstone : I want to take a point in response. The substitute is before
us as a basis for reunion. Bro. Malins is showing how utterly unsatisfactory that
basis is.
Col. HlCKMAN: I want to take another point, that Bro. Malins is discussing.
,3'°
FIRST DAY.
one side of the question. There is another side, which appertains to the very questions
he propounds. This I shall answer.
Chairman : We are all agreed that if we could take the proposals to be made
•by the American brethren, we could then discuss them.
Mr. M 'Donald : Do you not think we should be quicker through it if we dwelt
less on the past, and looked to the future. Let us keep the poor drunkard in view.
Let us unite for that. Let us atone for any mistakes of the past, and establish a
future that will do credit to us.
Mr. Gladstone : I object to the waste of time on this point. This substitute is
reciting decisions that have been in operation for so long, and it is proposed to give
us this substitute as a basis of reunion. I say Bro. Malins is going to the heart of
the question when he is showing that that which the substitute gives us has not
remedied the evil in the past.
Chairman : We all admit that.
Col. Hickman : Not all that.
Chairman : Then Bro. Malins must go on.
Col. Hickman : Taking a great part of the statement as true, that there are no
coloured lodges in the Southern States named, is it not right to know the reason, and
whether the reason is in conformity with the law of the R. W.G.L, ? I undertake to say
that that substitute proposed by theDoctor, which is beforeyou now, and which you say
is not sufficient, should be substituted by you with some other remedy for the evils.
Because if that line is pursued, I am fully prepared to meet it, and not shrink from
it one single moment, let it be for or against me. •
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We have offered the substitute. They have declared to
us it is inadequate with or without the tail. They offej as acceptable the amendment
"by Bro. Gladstone or its equivalent. Now would it not be better to adjourn, in order
that we might see how much and in what respect the substitute and Bro. Gladstone
amendment differ, and see if we can harmonise the two and make provision to
meet the substitute and the amendment ? What we want to reach is something that
would be acceptable to both sides.
Mr. Gladstone : I am sorry that once more exception is taken to our method
of conducting our business. I am willing to accede to an adjournment if the Doctor
wishes it. Let us for a moment think of this. Dr. Oronhyatekha puts before us to¬
day this substitute as an adequate basis of reunion. What is proper? What can be
more in harmony with the purpose of our conference than to show that it is not
satisfactory ? If we do not do so, we must come to your opinion that it is satisfactory.
(" Oh, no.") Then we must get at the points raised, where it is unsatisfactory, and
we are doing that now.
Mr. Kempster : There is one thing that would be more satisfactoiy, and that
would be for Dr. Oronhyatekha or Col. Hickman to show how that substitute would
remedy the evil.
Mr. Gladstone : I am willing to hear that.
Mr. Malins : I call for one fact. We did not seek this substitute. We have
always spoken strongly against it; but when at length it was introduced, it was
pressed upon us that we ought to take up the substitute; and when I took up the
latter part of it, it was strongly objected to, and I was entreated to take it seriatim,
and now you object to that.
Chairman : The tone of the conference was that something must be put into
the substitute. I thought we might leave the American brethren some time to consider
Jiow they could mend the substitute. Then what they might suggest could be
discussed.
Mr. Gladstone : And remember that from the first start we have been anxiously
asking, " What else are you prepared to give?" Give us the full proposals.
Dr, Oronhyatekha : And we have been anxiously asking what these brethren
want.
Mr. Malins : You need not have come from America to ask that. We told you
.at Louisville.
FIRST DAY.
31
Mr. Morgan : If you would hear both sides it would expedite business. I
should be sorry if gentlemen on one side of the question should interrupt. As I
understand, Mr. Malins is dealing with the pith and marrow of the question. At the
same time I shall be glad to hear the brethren on the other side thoroughly.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Bro. Malins was not interrupted by us but by the Chair¬
man, as I thought, for expediting the business.
Chairman : I was putting before you the issue.
Mr. Morgan : The interruption came from the other side.
Mr. Daniel: Your object, as I take it, in calling Bro. Malins' attention to the
question was this, that what Dr. Oronhyatekha is willing to insert in the substitute
should be really submitted before it proceeds.
Mr. Pyper: I am glad you have brought up Dr. Oronhyatekha's agreement
that that is the point, the question on which we have worked. We separated on a
principle, and we could not help it. If Col. Hickman says he has something else
that would satisfy us, then we should be prepared to hear them from the very
beginning.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We do not say Bro. Malins is not in order in proceeding.
We submitted our substitute. You say it is not adequate, and you submitted Bro.
Gladstone's amendment as a substitute for my substitute. Would it not be best to
find out wherein the two differ, and to remedy them, and then submit them for
decision ?
Mr. Gladstone : I think obviously when we intimate that the substitute is
inadequate, the friends on the other side should at once bring forward whatever extra
they have to make it adequate, or to so submit it to us that we may know whether
we deem it adequate or not. Our position has been taken long ago. We have not
resigned from that position. We intimate that the substitute is unsatisfactory.
Nothing else is given. We must make our point that it is unsatisfactory. Have you
anything else to offer ? If you will give us the extra something we may decide it in
ten minutes.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I desire distinctly to say we do not admit the position
that the substitute taken in conjunction with Black's amendment is inadequate. We
think it is adequate to meet the point raised by the brethren, and we go further.
They say, even in that view, it is not adequate from their standpoint. They say
their amendment, submitted at Louisville, would be adequate, and nothing short of
that or its equivalent. We are willing to see if we can make that substitute equivalent.
If we can we shall agree, shake hands, and go home.
Mr. Gladstone: Do I understand that the brethren will give us our amendment?
We will reunite at once if they will. There is 110 use discussing it if they will not
give us it or its equivalent.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Or its equivalent. You may bring an old hat and throw
It up in the air, but it will fall to the ground.
Mr. Stockbridge : I looked at this as an arbitration. I really think our friends
on the opposite side should see how it is defective, and if any additional machinery
can be brought to be put into it. Where the" action is raised its grounds should be
stated.
Mr. Gladstone : That is just what Bro. Malins is doing.
Mr. Malins : I have been attempting for a good while to give the grounds.
Another decision given by Hastings is quoted: "In forming lodges of coloured
persons, proceed in all cases as if they were white." I have referred to that before
probably; but I will refer to it now, and say that one difficulty we have in accepting
this mere declaration is the fact, not simply that some Southern Grand Lodges have
evaded the law without the official knowledge of the officers of the R.W.G.L., but
that the officers themselves have not been straight in the matter. That is the whole
secret of our proposition, that if the R.W.G.L. fails to mission the negroes, any
Grand Lodge may do it. It is because, in spite of the many declarations that the
negroes are equally eligible, the negroes have been kept out with the knowledge of
the officials of the Order, and sometimes with their sanction and by themselves.
32
FIRST DAY.
Three years ago persons in Florida desired admission to our Order. Hastings' decision
was: " Proceed as if they were white." We have a letter from a W. M. Artrell,
of Key West, Florida, saying they put forth every effort to obtain a charter for a
coloured lodge, but they were not allowed. They have just petitioned us, and these
(showing them to the Chairman) are the signatures of the coloured people who
petitioned in vain for a charter. They said : " We are forced, to save our people, to
accept a charter of the Order of True Reformers which is incomplete and imperfect."
But with them it was not a matter of choice. They had to take the inferior insti¬
tution, even though they can write like that! And when they heard of the separation
they passed a vote "of thanks for our standing up for the rights of man, and applied
for a charter under our jurisdiction. Three years ago, at Jacksonville, Florida,
negroes applied for membership. Among them was a gentleman who had lived in
other States and practised the law. This is his letter; this is his writing. He became
a member of the Senate. He introduced a Civil Damage Law, for the fastening upon
the liquor-seller the costs and loss accruing to individuals through his selling them
drink. He, and others with him, applied for a charter. At that time the Grand
Lodge of Florida was not organised, but there was a D.D.R.W.G.T. under the juris¬
diction either of Bro. Russell or Hastings—Hastings, I believe—theR.W.G.T. whom
we elected in London—a very fine gentleman, too, although his record has been a
sad one in reference to the colour question in spite of his grand deliverances. Elected
in London, after our declaring in London for the rights of the negroes, he was applied
to for a Good Templars' charter, having said that they should proceed as if they were
white. He granted them a charter; but it since transpired, on the confession of Col.
Hickman, that he mutilated that charter, indicating that they were not to remain
Good Templars after the Grand Lodge was formed, or that they were to become
ultimately members of the inferior Order. The doctrine of Col. Hickman and others
has been, let that be a training school from which they may move up into our Order.
Such men as these were permitted to become Good Templars, with charters and
rituals (but with a charter tampered with), for twelve months ; and when the Grand
Lodge was organised, or thereabouts, received a letter from a British magistrate,
W. S. Williams, R.W.G.S., of Napanee, informing them they could not have the
password any more, and this on account of colour.
Col. Hickman : Have you Bro. Williams' letter ?
Mr. Malins : No, I have not.
Col. Hickman : I shall call for it.
Mr. Malins : Possibly it can be got. But I expect two facts will .not be
denied—that they applied for a Good Templar charter and had it mutilated, that they
worked as Good Templars a year and were '' promoted " downwards to True Reformers,
only they would not go. They were a lodge of 100 members. They never disbanded.
They declare that some have gone back; but they have eighty-odd members in
good standing. They hear of our doings, and send a letter recording the action of
Mr. W. S. Williams—a letter that would do honour to him if he could write a letter
like it.
Col. Hickman : I do not think that is exactly fair. Such insinuations
Mr. Malins : I say it is an admirable letter.
Col, IHickman : You said if he could have written a letter like it.
Chairman : That had better be left out.
Mr. Malins : I withdraw it. I am anxious not to say anything painful.
Col. Hickman : I withdraw my objection to it also.
Mr. Malins : So much-for such a good man as Bro. Hastings has been, whose
decisions have been familiarly quoted : "to proceed as if they were white," whilst he
proceeds as if they were black. The next point of the substitute is, that in 1873 the
R.W.G.L. adopted a resolution that all sub-lodges in the jurisdiction of any Grand
Lodge, whose charters have not been revoked or suspended for violation of law, are
entitled to be recognised and to receive the quarterly password, and that the refusal
thereof because of race, colour, or condition, will be a violation of duty and obligation.
Col. Hickman : Was that at London ?
FIRST DAY.
33
Mr. Malins : Yes. A straight record. A true deliverance. Only one British-
born subject voted against it.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Who was that?
Mr. Malins : Bro. Williams.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And Bro. Stewart, of Nova Scotia.
Mr. Malins : Dr. Oronhyatekha moved an amendment to it, the amendment
being a resolution passed a year before, declaring the principle of equality proposed
by Hastings, a resolution that, however good it was in its material, did not save this
case or meet it. That substitute was lost.
Mr. Gladstone : Withdrawn.
Mr. Malins : Withdrawn, and Dr. Oronhyatekha voted for this motion. It
was a good record. These sessions were like barometers, going up and down with the
places where they were held. They received a memorial asking from Carolina for a
Grand Lodge charter, and the G.W.C.T. of that State, writing in reference to that
memorial, confesses to the fact that these coloured lodges were in existence before the
white lodges, or some of them, and that the white Grand Lodge had refused to give
them the password because there was a clause in its constitution that prohibited its
being given.' Now I have that constitution with the clause in it. The Grand Lodge
of North Carolina was formed by Col. Hickman after the uniform law came into
force; and it says: "We welcome all classes." Article ten says: " Only such
persons as are of the white or Caucasian race are eligible for membership."
Col. Hickman : Have you the other one with it taken out ?
Mr. Malins : I know it was quickly taken out after the London session. I
expect this deliverance caused it to be taken out. They took the clause out, but they
did not let the negro in. The history of these coloured lodges in North Carolina is
eventful indeed. This refers to it, and proposes to give them relief. They petitioned
for a Grand Lodge of their own; but up to that hour in the London session the idea
of separate Grand Lodges for the negro had never dawned on the mind of any one of
my associates so far as I know, and was most repulsive to myself. I believed in the
negro coming into the same sub-lodge that I belonged to, and the same Grand Lodge;
and I did not believe in separating the races ; and I believed this motion was better
than granting them a charter, for I knew very little of the prejudice in the Southern
States. I regarded this as insisting that they should have the password and all the
privileges of membership in and among the whites. I believed in that; and I rose in
the body and stated that if it were a fact that the whites in the South if they come
into the Order must exclude the blacks, while the blacks would not exclude the whites,
we must dispense with the exclusive race—take the blacks and leave the whites.
That was my deliverance in 1873. I said the same thing at Madison, Wisconsin,
though I am accused of having advocated the separation of races, a thing I never
advocated in the world. If I did I was wrong. If I thought I did I should be
ashamed. But it is for the purpose of keeping this conference close to the matter that
I do not trouble to rehearse this matter. If necessary, I will advance it in public.
Chairman : I hope we shall have nothing public outside this conference.
Mr. Malins : What are the facts as to North Carolina. In 1867 the R. W.G.L.
passed a resolution in favour of missioning the South, irrespective of colour. In that
year Col. Hickman aitd myself joined the Order. It sent missionaries south. One
Brother Falcott, of Connecticut, found the whites did not look at the Order with favour,
regarding it as a Northern institution; and being sore with the feeling engendered by
the war. The blacks were more willing to join, and joined. He formed several
lodges. I fancy he formed twelve or thirteen, or about that number. I think two of
them were exclusively white. Most of the others were formed entirely of black per¬
sons ; but in one or two there were whites.
Mr. Gladstone : In 1868 nine lodges were reported.
Mr. Malins : They dwindled ; they got less and less.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Why?
Mr. Malins : I do not know. It is impossible for me to tell you why.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It is on the record.
D
34
FIRST DAY.
Mr. Capper : Bro. Spencer said on the floor of the London session, why ?
' Mr. Malins : I do not know. But this I know, and I am not wrong in my facts,
that in 1872, at Madison, Wisconsin, it was said: "In North Carolina the Order has for
a year or two had but an apparent existence. Several lodges have perished. Whether it
is owing to untoward circumstances or the lack of an efficient deputy, I do not
know. But it is suggested that attention should be given to add to the Order in
that State." The record shows that one lodge was dead the previous year, was revived
during the year, and two others were in existence. Three lodges were reported at the
end of May, 1872.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : But the reason of the forfeiture of the charter of the nine
lodges is given.
Mr. Gladstone quoted, "Not having made returns for one year."
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Within the first year of their existence; they were
organised the previous year.
Mr. Malins : There are five reported in good standing in 1869. My point is,
was the door open for those who could efficiently maintain a Good Templar lodge?
Could they join our Order if they wished? In May three of those lodges are reported
in the Journal.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Which lodges ?
Mr. Malins : Three in North Carolina.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Were they coloured lodges?
Mr. Malins : Yes. The State Grand Lodge was formed by Col. Hickman.
On the 19th August, he went into the State, and in twelve or fourteen days formed
a dozen lodges, and instituted a Grand Lodge. I believe these three lodges were
coloured lodges.
Col. Hickman : I desire to state that as for my having any knowledge of the
existence of a single solitary lodge, white or coloured, in North Carolina, when I
went there, I did not know.
Mr. Malins : I have to point out this fact that those three lodges were reported
in the Journal at the end of May.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Would not these lodges be reported if in existence in the
June previous.
Mr. Malins : Certainly not.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: It requires returns a year before the forfeiture of a charter.
They may have died in June, not having reported in May.
Mr. Malins : You may surmise so.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : If the lodges became defunct one month after the session
of the R.W.G.L., but previous to the next session, they would still be reported.
Mr. Malins : That would not follow, if the fact of their becoming defunct were
brought to the R. W. G. S. I have to put in here the password sent by Julius A. Spencer,
R.W.G.S., to those coloured brethren for the quarter ending Aug. 1, 1872, in proof
of the fact that those people were in possession of the password within nineteen days
of the day when Col. Hickman went into the State to revive the Order there.
Col. Hickman : Is it not often the part of the G.W.S. to send out the pass¬
word to lodge deputies in the same form, whether they have paid their dues- or not ?
Mr. Malins : It is a thing that is so uncommon that we know it to be a breach
of law and a very improper thing.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Is it possible the password may be sent to the deputy ?
Mr. Malins : It may not be lawfully sent if the taxes are not paid.
Mr. Pyper : It would not be very likely that he would inform the officiating
officer.
Mr. Malins : Well, I will not press this point. Col. Hickman makes his
disclaimer and says : "I did not know they were in existence." I would be certainly
the last man to say he did know.
FIRST DAY.
35
Mr. Pyper : The secretary knew.
Mr. Malins: He ought to have known, because the R.W.G.S. had in his
report intimated that the Order was in a sad state, and that some Southern worker
should go and add to the membership. The truth is, Col. Hickman went, and in
fourteen days formed several lodges.
Col. Hickmah : In eleven days.
Mr. Malins : Well, eleven days. He organised lodges and formed the Grand
Lodge ; and these twelve-days-old Templars determined to outlaw the five-year-old
Templars, and resolved that it should be a white man's organisation. I do not know
•whether that clause was put to Col. Hickman.
Col. Hickman: I do not remember.
Mr. Malins : Should you not remember ?
Col. Hickman: If I did, I should have an answer for it.
Mr. Mai .ins : The existence of these lodges is denied. Yet it is admitted by the
G.W.C.T. of that State in his letter to the London session. He wrote, and the
R.W.G.L. said, "Grant the password." But they never had the password till they
got it this quarter from me. That is all about North Carolina.
After prayer by Bro. Gladstone, the conference adjourned.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 20.
Morning Session.
The conference resumed at nine a.m.
Present—Same members as on previous day, excepting Rev. M. Morgan and
Mr. J. B. Mason. For the latter, Mr. John Harding, of New Zealand, was sub¬
stituted. (Mr. Turnbull reported during forenoon session instead of Mr. Browne).
After a few minutes' silent prayer, the minutes of yesterday afternoon's session
■were read.
Mr. Malins : I am sorry to start this point, and I hope it willnot be misunderstood,
but I think it would be well to simply refer to individuals by name; to me as Joseph
Malins, and so on. I think in the minutes you have spoken of Brother Gladstone
and others. I only wish we were brothers in the same Order. Of course, it is only
because it is essential to the position we take up that a separation has taken place,
that I take exception to it.
The Secretary : In the minutes themselves the parties are so described, but
what you refer to is the transcript of a motion offered by Mr. Prichard.
A short discussion then took place on a request made by Dr. Oronhyatekha,
that it should be recorded that his "substitute had been offered as a basis for
reunion." Ultimately it was agreed that it should be recorded that it was "sub¬
mitted as a basis for discussion," and the minutes were confirmed with this verbal
amendment.
Mr. Malins : Mr. President, the remarks made with reference to the minutes
impel me just to say one thing with regard to the "substitute," that in coming
to this conference we expected to discuss some definite proposals which Col.
Hickman assured us he had to lay before us. We have spent a day now,
and the proposal is not before us yet. We discuss the substitute because it
is put before us and is the only thing that is before us, but on behalf of myself
and my colleagues, I beg to say that having voted against that substitute,
discussed it and opposed it at Louisville, had we known that instead of the definite
proposals promised we were to have put before us that substitute, simply with the
omission of a certain part, I very much question whether our members would have
thought that we were acting wisely in spending any time in discussing a thing that
we have already given our opinions and our votes upon, and we have been sustained
SECOND DAY.
by our Grand Lodges in giving these opinions and votes. But when we came to the
conference we were anxious to bottom the question, and although in my judgment in
the absence of the definite proposals positively promised by word of mouth and by letter,
we would have been justified in refusing to proceed at all, until these definite proposals
were submitted. I will now proceed to consider the latter part of the substitute,
and to elucidate one of the points I want to ask a question, which I hope I shall get
a reply to. I come to that part of the substitute which contains the amendment,
which js called Judge Black's amendment—an amendment stated to have been
offered for the purpose of solving the colour difficulty: "After the assent obtained or
upon the petition of any Grand Lodges, Charters for one or more Grand Lodges or
for one or more Subordinate Lodges under' the immediate jurisdiction of the Right
Worthy Grand Lodge, may be granted, covering a part or the whole of the territory
embraced by the Charter of such existing Grand Lodges." And a little further down
it is declared, "And this R.W.G.L. is prepared at any time to revoke the
charter of any lodge that may persist in violating this or any other 'law of
the Order." Now, for the purpose of discipline, the person aggrieved, or the
parties aggrieved, must be able to appeal to the court that inflicts the penalty, and
the question I have to put is this : In the event of coloured persons petitioning for a
charter and their being refused on account of colour, have they the right to appeal to the
R.W.G.L.? Dr. Oronhyatekha said at R.W.G.L. that charters cannot legally be
refused on account of colour. Suppose they are refused, an illegal act is committed,
can those thus wronged get righted ? Can they appeal ? Now I ask that, and I
should like a reply. (Question repeated.) Dr. Oronhyatekha quotes what is called
Judge Black's amendment as having been proposed as, and when adopted as
having been, a remedy for the evil complained of—namely, the exclusion of the
blacks, and further down he says, "And this R.W.G.L. is prepared at any time to
revoke the charter of any lodge" (that means any Grand Lodge), that may persist in
violating this or any other law of the Order." The Doctor says they cannot
legally be refused charters on account of colour. If coloured people petition a
Grand Lodge and are refused on account of colour, can they appeal to the R.W.G.L.
and thus get the penalty inflicted ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Mr. Malins wants to know if they have any remedy. I
answer they have, by petition or memorial to the R.W.G.L., setting forth the violation
of the fundamental laws in the manner stated by Mr. Malins. That would be a
ground for action on the part of the R.W.G.L. 'If, however, he asks if they would
have the right of appeal, of course I say No; but a petition or memorial would be
taken cognisance of by the R.W.G.L., and would be dealt with on the merits of the
question.
Mr. Malins : I suppose that I may take it for granted that Col. Hickman agrees
with that as the properly understood law of the Order.
The Chairman : Certainly.
Col. Hickman : I reserve my right to give my decision when I make my speech.
The Chairman : No. If no objection is taken when a statement is made I
understand it has your assent.
Col. Hickman : I understand that any persons have the right to petition the
R.W.G.L., and the R.W.G.L. will hear the petition.
Mr. Malins : I would have liked Col. Hickman's reply to have been as direct as
Dr. Oronhyatekha's, and the Doctor's to have been a little more direct than it is.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I rise again to raise the point that these insinuations that
the utterances of this side are not worthy of credit unless they come from the mouth
of Col. Hickman should not be allowed. It has been stated by the Chairman that
any statement would be taken as the utterances of all of us unless disclaimed. The
utterance of Col. Hickman was just as direct as mine, because he did not disclaim
that reply.
Mr. Malins : Then I suppose I may accept the assurance that persons refused
on account of colour can memorialise the R.W.G.L. and get the wrong righted,
and that the R.W.G.L. has the power to right the wrong. If Dr. Oronhyatekha's
statement means anything, I think it must mean that.
SECOND DAY.
37
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Certainly.
Mr. Malins : Then I have no need to quote from a semi-official Organ,
of the R.W.G.L.—the Canada Casket—or to call up an article from the pen
of the P.G.W.S. of South Australia, where he maintains the same point.
However, Dr. Oronhyatekha has, to my knowledge, quoted a time or two
from this report of the committee of 1868—Judge Black being chairman—and
I will also quote from the same report:—" Had the Grand Lodge of Kentucky fully
understood the powers of this R.W.G.L., or the powers and jurisdiction conferred
upon Grand Lodges by the R.W.G.L. constitution or the legislation of this body,
they would have found that this body had not, nor has not now, the power, nor has
it ever attempted to exercise authority, within the territorial limits of any Grand
Lodge. Within such limits each Grand Lodge is supreme in all questions of local
legislation." (The R.W.G.L, constitution is here quoted in support of that idea.)
"Your committee do not find any power reserved to the R.W.G.L. to say who or
what class of persons shall or shall not be received as members of the Order within
the jurisdiction of any Grand Lodge instituted under and holding a charter granted
in accordance with our laws." Later on it is said:—"Kentucky does not, your
committee feel sure, class herself with States lately in rebellion, nor has she ever
rightly been so regarded. Kentucky is not open to unimpeded efforts, for her
territory is covered by a Grand Lodge charter granted under the laws of, and recog¬
nised by, this body. This R.W.G.L. can no more grant a charter and institute
a sub-lodge within the territorial limits of Kentucky, while that charter remains
unforfeited and unannulled, than she can compel Kentucky against her will to grant
charters to those who may be obnoxious to her." I call attention to the point that
it cannot do it against her will. Of course, when a Grand Lodge refuses to grant
charters to coloured people on account of colour, it is done because it is against her
will; and if it refuses under the Black amendment to assent to the R.W.G-L.
granting it, there is no redress. The blacks may appeal or memorialise, but till
the Grand Lodge consents—and that would be giving up the point—there is no
redress,
Mr. Capper : I ask does not the substitute now under review say that the
charter would be revoked for a denial of a charter to coloured people because they
were coloured ?
Mr. Malins : Certainly it does ; and I have been asking whether that has been
a well-understood law of the Order ?
Mr. M'Donald : Is not the power of refusing charters vested in Grand Lodges
by the R.W.G.L., and does it not apply to all the world?
Mr. Malins : Most certainly; but it only proves that the statement of the
Doctor that a charter cannot legally be refused on account of colour is of no value,
because there is no remedy for the refusal.
Mr. Stockbridge asked if the argument was not with reference to Kentucky in
1868, <md whether it was not admitted that at that date Kentucky had the word
"white" in its charter and constitution, so that, of course, then no petition would
have been granted.
Mr. Malins : I am directing my attention to a report of a committee in 1868,
which has not been nullified.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It was clearly nullified by the adoption by the R.W.G.L.
of the substitute saying that the doors of the Order were open to all, and that to refuse
on account of colour would be regarded by the R.W.G.L. as a violation of the laws
of the Order.
The Rev. G. Gladstone : I think that it is well that a person should rise to
make an explanation or a correction, but I think that it is only fair that Mr. Malins
should be allowed to go on, because I am prepared to show that the Doctor is stating
what is not correct just now. As a matter of fact, the R.W.G.L. action in 1868 has
not been annulled since, and I am prepared to show it at the proper time.
Dr. Oroxhyatekha : I am prepared to show that it has.
Mr. Harding : I object to the statement of Mr. Gladstone being entered on the
minutes.
38
SECOND DAY.
Mr. Gladstone : Then I object to the statement of Dr. Oronhyatekha being
entered on the minutes.
The Chairman : Bro. Malins will proceed.
Mr. Malins : It seems to me that the point sought to be made by Mr. Stockbridge
is that the committee were dealing with Kentucky, which had the word "white" in its-
constitution. Will any of the opposite side maintain that had this been said of any
jurisdiction that had not the word "white" in its constitution it would not have been
correct then ? (Hear, hear.) I would like, seeing that questions keep being put
Dr. Oronhyatekha thought it would be better if Mr. Malins went on, and
they would answer any questions when he had finished his speech.
Mr. Malins : Very well. Now then for an illustration of the fact, and of the
statement made by the Doctor that the R.W.G.L. has never failed when this matter
has come before it to give a deliverance ensuring and enforcing equal rights
Dr. Oronhyatekha rose to a point of order. Are we discussing my utterances-
or the substitute, because I submit that whatever I may say it is but the utterance
of an1 individual. Here is the substitute; the principles involved in it are official
and are before us, put there for discussion; and the amendment of Mr. Gladstone
has been brought before vis as material which would be acceptable to them. Mr.
Malins is discussing my utterances. I am prepared to discuss my utterances at the
proper time and in the proper place, and I raise this point not because I am not
prepared to discuss my utterances.
The Chairman : I do not think that would be in order.
(Mr. Morgan here entered the room.)
Mr. Malins : I am not referring particularly to what the Doctor has said, but
to what he has written as a delegate from the body that has sent him. The last
phrase in the letter sent by Dr. Oronhyatekha is
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I still raise the point that my letters, unless officially
submitted to this conference, are not a subject for discussion in this conference.
This objection is in the same way as my other objection. These letters are not before
the conference. The only things submitted are the substitute and the amendment.
Of course, if it is understood that we are to go into all these matters, the utterances
of myself and Messrs. Malins and Gladstone, I am prepared.
Mr. Pyper : I thihk the point was a great deal too nice and too fine. Dr.
Oronhyatekha announces himself as a delegate from the R. W. G. L. to this country.
The Chairman : I should like to know Bro. Malins' point exactly before I give
a decision. I do not understand his point unless it is trying to show that the sub¬
stitute is inadequate.
Mr. Malins : I have never objected to any statement of mine being brought up,
but in deference to your ruling I yield on the point of quoting from Dr. Oronhya-
tekha's speech. I will quote from a letter written by him on this question, the con¬
cluding clause of which says this : "In principle, therefore, the R.W.G.L. is true on
the coloured question, and it has never yet failed to put its principles into practice."
Now the last part of this (R.W.G.L., 1868) report I will read, and it was adopted:
" This body may regret the limitation of power and the indisposition of Kentucky to
extend the blessings of temperance to all classes of her population through the instru¬
mentality of the Order; but Kentucky has the right to exclude from her lodges coloured
people should she deem it wise to do so, or prefer to make no effort to raise and redeem
those whom rum, or any other cause, may have debased below her standard of member¬
ship." A little lower down it says : " Until this better light (that God hath made of
one blood all men) is reached and enjoyed, the Grand Lodge of Kentucky must alone
be held responsible for the exclusion of the coloured people within its borders from
the benefits of the Order should they be excluded." They are powerless to prevent
it. That was adopted.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : In 1868.
Mr. Malins : In 1868.
The Rev. G. Gladstone : And never repealed since.
SECOND DAY.
39
Mr. Malins: "The R. W. G. L. has never failed to put its principles into practice,"
says the Doctor. (Dr. Oronhyatekha: "Hear, hear.") The Doctor maintains that'this
motion of Judge Black's was given notice of in order that the wants of the coloured
people might be met, and dual coloured Grand Lodges formed where they wanted them.
This motion, in exactly the same shape, appeared in the Journals as far back as 1868,
before there was a lodge in England. It was fought at one or two sessions and
dropped out, and was reintroduced at the Madison session (1872) by Representative
Draper, of New York. It was introduced in a somewhat abbreviated form, and
Representative Draper—the Doctor intimates on pressure from us, perhaps it was—
restored it to its original form, that a second Grand Lodge could not be formed
without the consent of the first. I objected to the adoption of it in any form. I have
uniformly objected to the passage of that amendment; my Grand Lodge has sustained
me in that objection, and I have upheld the will of the Grand Lodge in that respect.
It was given notice of, then, twelve months before the London session (1873), and
the London session was the first place at which any request was ever presented from
the coloured people for a separate Grand Lodge. The Doctor declares that it was to
meet this case that the notice was given by Bro. Black. I don't think it was, because
the R.W.G.L. in London never discussed the matter of duplicate Grand Lodges for
the coloured people. A memorial came from the coloured people for it, but the
R. W.G.L. did a better thing; it Said, practically "There shall be no distinction of
colour. The black and white people shall have the password, and representatives
from both shall merge in the same Grand Lodge." That I voted for ; that was the
best way to settle the question from high principle apart from expediency. It is also
declared it was meant to relieve the Order in New Zealand, in the Isle of Man, and
North Carolina. (Mr. Capper: This was passed at the Bloomington session.) I am
glad you remind me of that. I deny that this amendment relieved any one of them.
Did it relieve New Zealand? Dr. Oronhyatekha has quoted remarks that he attributes
to the Hon. William Fox, who was at the Bloomington session
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I never quoted any remarks of Mr. Fox's.
Mr. Malins : I have seen it
Mr. Capper : I have quoted from him.
Mr. Malihs : What is the contention? That New Zealand being very distant
from end to end, it was needful that powers should be given at that session to enable
them to have two Grand Lodges. Unfortunately for the argument, the two Grand
Lodges were instituted about six months before the legislation was passed for their
relief, and Mr. Fox represented one Grand Lodge, that of New Zealand North, and
there was at this time a Grand Lodge for New Zealand South, and could not then
very well plead for what was.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: You will admit these lodges were illegal until the passage
of this amendment.
Mr. Malins : I do not admit anything of the kind, but can prove the contrary.
More Grand Lodges could be formed in New Zealand without reference to Judge
Black's amendment. There are several provinces in New Zealand, and each has its
Parliament or House of Assembly just as in Canada, and that was Bro. Hastings'
contention at Boston, that as the Order was in different parliamentary provinces, a!s
in Canada, no legislation was needed to meet the case; and the case was met without
it. The second point is that the amendment was to meet the case of the Isle of Man.
In answer to that I would like to ask a question, and be it remembered, I do not
object to answer questions at any moment. I ask whether the Isle of Man charter
has been granted under the old provision of the constitution or under Judge Black's
amendment ? I await a reply because it is essential to my argument.
Mr. Harding : With regard to New Zealand we considered the two Grand
Lodges illegal until confirmed by the passage of this amendment; and with regard
to our provincial parliaments, our provincial councils are rather like your borough
councils.
Mr. Malins : They are Houses of Assembly just as much as Newfoundland has.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : With regard to the Isle of Man, it had always been
represented to us that it was a part of the jurisdiction of England, and it was with
40
SECOND DAY.
this belief that the memorial from there was referred to the committee at the Bloom-
ington session, and with this belief we supposed that relief to the Isle of Man must
come under Judge Black's amendment; and not having obtained the assent of the
Grand Lodge of England as a matter of fact, the Grand Lodge charter was not
granted to the Isle of Man until after the Louisville session, when we learned that it
was a distinct country from England, and therefore did not require the consent of
the Grand Lodge of England under Judge Black's amendment, as we had supposed.
Had we known this at Bloomington, we would have granted a charter to the Isle
of Man.
Mr. Malins: I have drawn one fact which I wanted, that the Black amend¬
ment had no relation to the charter for the Isle of Man. The third point where
we are told relief was afforded was North Carolina, and we are pretty well brought
to book for opposing an amendment that was a satisfactory solution of the diffi¬
culties. The North Carolina lodges petitioned at the time the Grand Lodge was
instituted—I admit there were only two or three of them in existence, perhaps only
one, my argument would just be the same. After that Grand Lodge was instituted,
and the white people declared that none but white people should be members under
their jurisdiction, they, having an Englishman for secretary, and being on the whole
well-disposed towards the blacks, apparently furnished the Hon. E. Dudley—who
had been a deputy of the R.W.G.T. years before among the coloured people—rituals
to form lodges, and they formed these lodges—called coloured Good Templar lodges,
and called so in the Grand Lodge of North Carolina's Journals. But they did not
grant them charters. If they had had charters it would have guaranteed them repre¬
sentation in the Grand Lodge. It was mostly these lodges irregularly formed that
were petitioning. It is placed upon record some years before that the G. W.C.T. of
the District of Columbia had granted a charter to some coloured people, and the
G.W.S. withheld the books. The lodge appealed, and the books were ordered to be
given; and I maintain that where Good Templar rituals were issued by a Grand
Lodge for working from, that they were lodges, and that the withholding of the
charters was a breach of the law of the Order. These lodges petitioned the R. W. G.L.
repeatedly, and it was the duty of the R.W.G.L. officers, finding the charters were
withheld—I contend it was their duty to insist on the charters being granted. The
Bloomington amendment of Judge Black was passed then, and it is stated that it was
a measure to give relief to North Carolina. We had hoped it would, although we
doubted it. I am quoted as saying that " it was a big concession on the part of the
Southerners." You may judge from that how much I expected from them. Now this
Grand Lodge had at its session previous to the Boston meeting memorialised the
R.W.G.L. to grant these coloured people a Grand Lodge charter, but there was then
no provision that enabled them to do it. The matter came up the next year, and
they say " this provision met the case." The Grand Lodge met, Col. Hickman was
there as R. W. G. T. He was introduced with honours, and installed the officers. I
have stated that he was presiding at the time. I have learned he was not presiding
at the time although he was present, and I have given the correction a wider circula¬
tion than the original error. Well at that Grand Lodge, now that the law would
afford the relief, the assent required was refused. The Grand Lodge gave its consent
when they knew there was no law to permit the R.W.G.L. availing itself of the
consent, but when the law was passed at Bloomington that they said met the case,
that same Grand Lodge, in the presence of Col. Hickman, refused to consent, and
to this hour they are unrelieved except by us. So much for the efficiency of this
remedy for the wrongs of the coloured people ! Now, I think we have cleared this
point up. First, New Zealand was relieved six months before by the institution of
two Grand Lodges. The idea of these lodges being illegal was never mentioned. At
the Bloomington session the representative from one of them was accepted without
any question being raised. It is proved that the Isle of Man charter was not granted
under this amendment, and that the negroes of North Carolina were not relieved
under it.
Col. Hickman : Will Bro. Malins put it as his opinion ?
The Chairman : It is so understood.
Mr. Malins : The plea put forward by the representative of North Carolina—
the G.W.C.T. of North Carolina—at the late session was that the reason they refused
SECOND DAY.
41
consent was that the Black amendment had been suspended, except with regard to
their State and to one other, and they did not like this kind of exceptional legislation,
and if the law had been allowed to pass without any limitation no difficulty would
have been experienced. (Hear, hear.) Someone says "hear, hear!" Well, the
Grand Lodge of North Carolina has met since—and I will tell you what they
■did or rather did not do. This is a letter, signed by a white lady, the G.W.V.T.
of the State up to the time of the last session—a session held since the action at
Louisville, presided over by the G.W.C.T., who voted for Dr. Oronhyatekha's
substitute; and
Mr. M'Donald : Is that letter in order? Is it an official document ?
Mr. Malins : I maintain that, seeing that the conduct of a Grand Lodge is
under discussion, and the effect of this substitute upon Grand Lodges, a communica¬
tion from a Grand Lodge officer is good evidence.
Mr. M 'Donald : But where do you find the letter? From a newspaper, where
it is perhaps not properly reported ?
Mr. Malins : I shall prove it just npw.
Mr. stockbridge : If that is to be allowed letters from all sources may be
adduced.
Mr. Malins : I object to no evidence.
The Chairman : I do not think, brethren, that before we know what the
evidence is we should object to it. I should be glad if we could get on.
Mr. Malins : Look at the interruptions, sir !
The Chairman : Of course I make every allowance for tfiese. I hope brethren
will not object. We must allow some latitude, for we never know what the facts are
till they are brought before us.
Mr. Malins : The letter is taken from the Christian Witness, of New York;
and it also appeared, I believe, in the Living Issue.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: There is a well understood rule in bodies of this kind that
no printed letters should be put in ; but we waive the objection.
Mr. Malins : I cannot express myself as under obligation. We are not in a law
court.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I hope we are in a body which desires to conduct business
in accordance with recognised rules.
Mr. Malins : I am sure of it. She writes :—"You know all about the action
of the R.W.G.L. at Louisville, Kentucky, in May last."
Mr. M 'Donald submitted it should be left out entirely.
The Chairman : I am not sure it is evidence that can be fairly accepted.
Mr, Malins : I think we should not take the same stand they do in law courts.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We on this side waive the objection, and consent to the
admission of the letter, provided we get the name of the newspaper, and, if possible,
the date also. Of course the full letter will be put in.
Mr. Malins : I cannot give the date.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then we waive that.
Mr. M 'Donald : Suppose I disbelieve any part of that letter, I cannot question
that piece of paper.
Mr. Malins : Then I put the paper aside. You cannot prevent me stating that
I gather information from a letter which has appeared in the public press over the
signature of a lady who, up to the last session of the Grand Lodge, occupied the post
of G.W.V.T., and in that letter it is stated
Col. Hickman : Then that would call forth the letter.
The Chairman : Proceed.
■Mr. Malins : In that letter it is stated that this lady, finding that a separation
had taken place at Louisville, and that the British confraternity (as she terms it) were
disposed to mission the coloured people of North Carolina, she did not like the
42
SECOND DAY.
idea of the coloured people of that State attaching themselves to a foreign organisa¬
tion, and desiring, therefore, to retain them in the Order in North Carolina, she
presented to their recent session a memorial from 400 coloured Good Templars
soliciting the assent of the Grand Lodge to their having a dual Grand Lodge of
their own.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I have no objection to this providing it is fully laid out
that it is based on a letter purporting to be signed by a past officer of the Grand
Lodge.
Mr. Malins : And it goes on to say that she placed that memorial in the hands
of the Committee on Memorials, and waited from day to day for their report upon
it; and when the session was drawing to a close her patience was exhausted and she
asked for the report, and was informed by the committee that they had no report to
present; they had not considered the memorial; and it being at the end of the
session it could not be taken up then, and was not; and that is why she writes to the
paper to complain. So much for the relief. In conclusion, we state that the substi¬
tute, with that clause commencing "At the same time" struck out, does not alter the
law of the Order one jot. That same clause is in the constitution—(Dr. Oronhyatekha:
"Hear, hear")—and we knew how that clause had been perverted, and how there
was no remedy for the perversion, and this is why we say that though that quotation
and the other quotations in the substitute from Hastings' decisions are in themselves
sound, the practice has been a violation of the spirit of those decisions and a perver¬
sion of the rights accorded to Grand Lodges; and we give testimony as to this by
now quoting the official declarations from Grand Lodges from the official organs of
the Grand Lodges that are mostly concerned on the negro question. Representative
Scott, G.W.S. of Missouri, and R.W.G. Treasurer of the lodge over which Col.
Hickman presides, in his Report to his Grand Lodge says of the British Delegation,
and those who sided with them, that "they deny to Americans the right to regulate
in their own jurisdictions the policy which should govern them in carrying out the
principles of the Order." The Alabama Templar, the official organ of that Grand
Lodge, says, "This resolution (the substitute) leaves the settlement of the whole
question where it properly belongs, with the Grand Lodges. This is a just inter¬
pretation of the constitution of the R.W.G.L., and a proper recognition of the rights
inherent in the Grand Lodges." The Riverside Weekly, the official organ of the
Grand Lodge 'of Kentucky
Dr. Oronhyatekha objected to evidence being taken from newspapers.
Mr. Malins : It is from the official organ.
The Chairman : It is quite right. If it is from the official Journal I think it is
admissible.
Mr. Kempster: They are not the deliverances of the Executives, but what the
conductors of the official organs think.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It is not an official deliverance. Then we have the right
put in evidence from the official organ of the Grand Lodge of England.
Mr. Malins : Certainly. We have the date of the paper.
Mr. Stockbridge : It is but the editor's opinion.
Mr. Malins : I cite from the official organ of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky of
the 24th of June. It is edited by G.W. Bain, G. W.C.T. of the State.
Mr. M'Donald : Shall I be allowed to quote the Watchword?
Mr. Malins : Certainly! "We are coming more and more to the conclusion that
the good, sound, practical common sense of the North has solved the problem, and the
real demands of the case are being so realised by them that they are at last con¬
senting to leave the matter to the management of the local Grand Lodges, where
only it legally belongs." Owing to the fact that Dr. Oronhyatekha's substitute was
understood and voted for by its supporters—so far as the Southerners are concerned—
on the understanding that it would leave the matter in the hands of the local Grand
Lodges, who have perverted it ever since their existence, we uphold the opinion of
the representative to theR.W.G.L. last year from New Zealand, the Hon. William
Fox, that the substitute of Dr. Oronhyatekha is "the veriest sham that ever was
SECOND DAY.
43
attempted to be imposed on intelligent men," and because it is we do now refuse to
accept it as a basis for reunion.
Mr. Prichard : I should consider that of great value if that paper were the
organ of the R.W.G.L. ; but being the organ of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, I
attach no value to it.
The Chairman : I take these testimonies as being brought in to show what the
views of the South are regarding the value of Dr. Oronhyatekha's substitute ; and I
do think it is of value, because—whatever may be our view of it—what their view is-
is of more value than our own, because they will act on their view of it; and the view
put on it in the States in which the action is to be taken, is of more importance than
ours.
Mr. M'Donald : Is it Mr. Malins' belief that an alteration in the constitution of
the Grand Lodge, where it says the assent of a Grand Lodge is required before another
Grand Lodge charter can be granted in any jurisdiction, would meet the evil com¬
plained of, and take the onus off the shoulders of the R.W.G.L. ? I will put the
question again. Do you think that by altering the constitution of the Grand Lodge
where it says that the assent of the Grand Lodge is required before that another
Grand Lodge charter can be granted in any jurisdiction, would meet the evils
you complain of not only in America but all over the world ?
Mr. Malins : I know it would not, and could show it for two or three reasons.
But if our friend will put his question in writing I will answer it in a little time.
Mr. M'Donald : I will put no question in writing, because we did not begin in
that way.
Mr. Malins : It would not be sufficient.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Yesterday I asked the reporters to take note of a letter
from Tim Needham, which I now put in. I may state that I had written to him
stating that I would be in Liverpool, Nova Scotia, on a certain day. He writes
therefore:—
"Louisville, Kentucky, July 14, 1876.
"Dr. Oronhyatekha, Liverpool, Nova Scotia,
"Dear Brother,—Yours of the 12th to Bro. Bain came to-day, just as he was
starting on a tour of a week or more, and he asked me to write you. It is, of course,
very gratifying to us to know that Canada is taking such an active part in the conflict
now waging. We' are also rejoiced that in every instance where the vote has been
taken by Grand Lodges meeting since the division that they have voted to stay;
especially are we glad that New Brunswick stays, and we venture to hope Nova
Scotia will do the same. You are mistaken though as to the status of affairs here.
Our Grand Lodge was chartered and our constitution adopted and accepted by the
R. W. G. Lodge before the raising of the coloured question, and we never had or took
control of any other than the whites—the word ' white' being placed in the eligibility
clause. Now we cannot take the word out, except by regular process of ' amend¬
ment,' which will require a year and a half yet, so in lieu of that tedious course we
(the Executive) have only this day signed and sent forward to the R.W.G. Templar
the following statement (appended to his proposition to the Southern Executive), viz.:
' Saving the legal barrier that exists in this State, and which can only be removed by
the process of a constitutional amendment, we sign this document (you have seen it),
trusting most earnestly and sincerely that the unity of the Order may be restored and
perpetuated. And, furthermore, we do hereby consent that, as between the Grand
Lodge of Kentucky, and the R.W.G.L., in so far as the Negro race is concerned,
Kentucky may be held and considered 'unoccupied territory,' and we invite the
R.W.G.L. to occupy same at her pleasure, by chartering as many sub-lodges, com¬
posed of coloured persons exclusively, as she may deem fit, and then grant them a
separate Grand Lodge charter when ready for it, just as though no Grand Lodge existed
in this State.' By this means you see that we put the matter at rest at once, and the
R.W.G.L. can, if she wish, go to organising them to-morrow, and we will never say
' nay.'' We are in earnest when we talk about 'unity,'' and hope this thing may yet
be realised by our noble Order.—Wishing you great success in your work, I am, very
truly and fraternally yours, " Tim Needham."
44
SECOND DAY.
The Grand Lodge of Kentucky is incorporated under the State laws, and must follow
its constitutional direction to remedy or to make an alteration in its laws. The
constitution required a year's notice of amendment; it was six months to their session,
making the 18 months eighteen referred to. By Judge Black's amendment the
R.W.G.L. can now go into Kentucky and organise sub-lodges and a coloured Grand
Lodge with coequal representation in .the R.W. G. L. under the present law.
Mr. Malins : I wish to say that yesterday, when the question of the date of the
approval of the constitution of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky was brought up, and
the Doctor pursued the course of giving us the date of granting the charter instead of
the date of the approval of the constitution, he indicated that he had a letter from
Tim Needham which would show that the constitution was approved in 1864. (Dr.
Oronhyatekha : "No.") That was the intimation. It was quoted to dispute my
declaration that the constitution was approved in 1866. Was it, or was it not ? The
letter says that it was approved prior to the raising of the negro question. I know
it was. I don't believe that question ever was raised before 1866.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: The question being raised in 1866 Tim Needham says
here that the constitution was adopted before the raising of the coloured question. I
submit that is strong testimony that it was adopted before 1866.
Mr. Malins : I deny that.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I think this letter is corroborative of the statement I make.
Mr. Malins : The Doctor is almost too shrewd for me. He, because I state
that the question was not raised before 1S66, assumes that I admit that the constitution
was approved before 1S66.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I assume nothing of the kind. I say my witness is Tim
Needham, who declares the constitution was accepted by the R.W.G.L. before the
raising of the coloured question ; following the declaration of Mr. Malins that this
question was not raised until 1866, then it must have been accepted before 1866.
Mr. Malins asked that this passage in the letter might again be read. This
was done, and
Dr. Oronhyatekha said: That is strong testimony, and nothing can be more
logically conclusive than that the constitution was adopted before 1866.
Mr. Malins : It is clear to the Doctor; but it is clearer to me. The idea I
intended to convey is borne out better than the construction the Doctor chooses to
put on my word. The coloured question was raised in 1866 possibly, if you please, by
the introduction of the Kentucky constitution, and except in that one thing the
coloured question was not raised apart from the approval of that until 1867, con¬
sequently the Grand Lodge constitution of Kentucky was approved in 1866, before
the coloured question apart from that constitution was raised. I wish to say with
regard to that letter of Tim Needham, that I have considered it and do admit that
it is an apparent yielding on their part—(hear, hear)—but if all the Southern
Grand Lodges similarly yielded it would not prove that they had complied with
the construction we are expected to put on Dr. Oronhyatekha's substitute—that
there is no distinction of colour, and that Grand Lodges must grant charters
irrespective of colour; but it enables them to evade their duty, and to allow
the R.W.G.L. to do it, and thus prevent the coloured people from having represen¬
tation in the Grand Lodge.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Is it not precisely what the R.W.G.L. was asked to do
by the Gladstone amendment, with this difference, that if the R.W.G.L. failed to do
its duty any Grand Lodge might go in and do it; but practically, the idea is the same,
that you did not require the Grand Lodges South to take the coloured people into
their lodges, but made.provision for a separation ?
Mr. Malins : It is on the part of Kentucky a concession of one part of what the
Gladstone amendment asked.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The question is, is the principle not the same, that wc
are not to force coloured people into white lodges, but we are to permit of a separa¬
tion ?
Mr. Malins: The principle is the same, but the means of carrying it out are not
SECOND DAY.
45:
the same. It allows the R.W.G.L. to do that which our Grand Lodges wanted the
privilege of doing, if the R.W.G.L. refused to do it.
Mr. Gladstone : This assent, while it so far runs in the line of my amendment,
does not at all run in the line of the substitute carried by the R.W.G.L. The substitute
made no provision for the consent of the Grand Lodges being given in order to allow
the granting of charters to the coloured people. The amendment which we submitted
provided that the R.W.G.L. or any other Grand Lodge was to go in and institute
subordinate lodges, but it was rejected. It is quite true that they are giving their
consent in the line of my amendment, but not in that of the substitute.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: It was not required in the substitute, because it was already
in the laws of the R.W.G.L., as embodied in Judge Black's amendment adopted at
Bloomington, and after the adoption of which we received the resignations of Messrs.
Gladstone and Malins, in consequence of that adoption. This fully provides for the
organisation of subordinate and Grand Lodges in any jurisdiction, so soon as the
assent of the existing Grand Lodge is obtained, and in accordance with that Bloom¬
ington amendment we can go in to-morrow and organise subordinate lodges in
Kentucky, and can organise a coloured Grand Lodge with co-equal representation in
the R.W.G.L. _ Therefore everything asked for in the Gladstone amendment was
already granted in-the Bloomington amendment, with the exception of the assent, that
is the only difference. The laws say you must get the consent first. Mr. Gladstone
says you may go in without the consent. The law of the R. W. G. L. says the work
shall be done by the R.W.G.L. only ; the Gladstone amendment says it may be done
by the R.W.G.L. or any Grand Lodge.
Mr. Gladstone : Perhaps I did not make the point sufficiently plain. I do so
now. I call your special attention to the language of the substitute itself. After
quoting decisions and commenting on that amendment, the Doctor's substitute runs
thus: "It was not intended in any way to interfere, and does not in fact interfere, with
the eligibility of any man, white or black, to membership in the Order, but simply enlarg¬
ing the privileges and powers of the Grand Lodges, as indicated in the amendment,
therefore Resolved,—That any provision in the constitution or bye-laws of any Grand
Lodge that in any manner contravenes this well understood fundamental principle of
the Order is absolutely null and void, and this R.W.G.L. is prepared at any time to
revoke the charter of any lodge that may persist in violating this or any other law of
the Order." What is it now that the Doctor brings before us ? That the Grand Lodge
of Kentucky will continue to keep out the blacks. That is the point I wish to make.
The point of the substitute, if it has any point at all, which I am very doubtful of, is
here, that there is to be no distinction at all. That is of course that colour is to be no
bar to membership. Now the Grand Lodge of Kentucky practically tells you it will
still continue to keep out the blacks—that colour is to be a bar to membership. It
says, we will not admit the blacks, but we will allow the R.W.G.L. to mission them
and form them into sub and Grand Lodges; and the Doctor tells us that
instead of revoking the charter the R.W.G.L., having got the consent, will go in and
institute lodges. Is it not evident that this is not in the line of the substitute, but in
the line of an amendment which was rejected.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The substitute says that any provision in any Grand
Lodge's constitution or bye-laws which excludes any particular race is absolutely
null and void. That was for the Grand Lodge constitution of Kentucky, We
declared that the Grand Lodge constitution of Kentucky was illegal, and that the
provision which excluded the coloured people was null and void; and it was in
consequence of that action that I wrote, saying, "By your own votes you have
declared it to be illegal. Why not call your Executive together, and strike it out at
once ? " You have heard the reply. It gives valid reasons why that cannot be done
for eighteen months ; but in order to meet the difficulty, to remove the objection as
far as they can by throwing open their territory in consonance with that substitute,
the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, when the time comes, will take out that word white,
and the constitution will be precisely like that of England with reference to the
admission of the negro to the Order, and the substitute will therefore remove the
constitutional provision excluding the negro race. We stand on the same ground ;
we recognise the desire which obtains in both races for separation ; we recognise the
46
SECOND DAY.
desire on the part of the negroes themselves for separation, and we have the law of
the R. W.G.L., which gives power to organise subordinate and Grand Lodges just as
desired by the Gladstone amendment. Therefore, in regard of the principle we do
not differ at all; it is only in the means of accomplishing the end. If, then, it is only
a difference as to the means of attaining the end surely, we are not going to split up
the Order.
Mr. Malins : It is just that end that we have never been able to attain.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We are all agreed as to the fundamental law of the Order.
All we have to do is to agree upon means to carry it out. The law says that "After
the assent obtained, or upon petition, of any Grand Lodge's charters for one or more
Grand Lodges, or for one or more subordinate lodges under the immediate jurisdiction
of fhe R.W.G.L. may be granted covering a part or the whole of the territory
embraced by the charter of such existing Grand Lodge." Now, having obtained
the consent of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky under this law, we can enter its territory
and organise subordinate and Grand Lodges with equal representation in the higher
body.
Mr. Gladstone : I have a habit of keeping to the point until I get it settled.
I am not concerned about the fact, which I know very well, that the substitute
declared null and void any provision in the constitution or bye-laws of any Grand Lodge
which contravened the well understood fundamental principle of the Order. That is
simply introductory to this particular part upon which I was laying stress, " And this
R.W.G.L. is prepared at any time to revoke the charter of any lodge which may
persist in violating this or any other law of the Order." I have simply to ask does
this mean thaf the charter shall be revoked only when the provision declared null
and void is retained ? Is that all, or does it not mean that where a Grand Lodge
continues to refuse admission to coloured people their charter will then be forfeited ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The substitute is plain, clear, and distinct. Any Grand
Lodge that persists in violating this principle.
Rev. G. Gladstone : That is in action ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : No ! No ! I say not for action. Any lodge violating
this principle,—excluding the negro from the benefits of the Order, and persisting in
that violation, is acting contrary to the principles and laws of the R.W.G.L., and
if brought up the R.W.G.L. will discipline that body to the extent of revoking its
■charter.
Mr. Gladstone : Now my point is plain. We have brought before us the
consent of Kentucky to mission the coloured people that they will not admit. The
substitute says the R.W.G.L. is prepared to revoke the charter of any lodge, &c.,
and yet we have brought before us as something remarkable that this Grand Lodge
is to continue to violate the laws.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I rise to deny the statement. I have shown that the
Grand Lodge of Kentucky will at the earliest possible moment take steps to remove
the cause of offence.
Mr. Gladstone : The cause of offence is not the word "white" in the constitu¬
tion, but the black people being kept out of the order.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then let Bro. Gladstone come back and bring it before
the R.W.G.L., and if he proves that they are violating the laws, off will go the charter.
Mr. Gladstone : This substitute says that the charter of any lodge that
continues to keep out the black people on account of colour is to be revoked. We
have put before us as practically giving us all we wish the fact that the Executive
consent to let the R.W.G.L. mission the people that they keep out, but, according to
this substitute, the black people are not to be kept outside for anybody to mission.
They are to be taken in by the existing Grand Lodges. Clearly, then, the consent
given by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky to the R.W.G.L, to mission the people they
will not admit is—in the line certainly of the amendment which was rejected—but in
conflict with the substitute of Dr. Oronhyatekha which was adopted, and which he
presents as a basis for reunion.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: It is also in the line of the law of the R.W.G.L., as
adopted at Bloomington.
SECOND DAY.
47
Mr. Gladstone : I say no, inasmuch as it is contended by the substitute that
was passed later than Judge Black's amendment that no Grand Lodge is to keep out
the blacks at all. It is quite true that Judge Black's amendment gives liberty to go in,
but it is not on the consent of a Grand Lodge that continues to keep out the black
people. If the substitute meant anything the Grand Lodge ought to have its charter
taken away.
Mr. Prichard : That is if the word white is retained in the constitution.
Mr. Gladstone : This word white is the merest bagatelle. It is the blacks being
kept out that we object to.
Mr. Stockbridge : Whatever is in the constitution must be read as part of
the law, and it is because the Grand Lodge of Kentucky is an incorporated body that
it cannot be taken out at once.
Mr. Malins : And I wish to point out that if it cannot because of the law, the
incorporate law, give the Order to the negroes, under the act of incorporation it cannot
relegate its consent, its official consent, to any other body doing that same unlawful
thing.
Mr. M'Donald : Then is it their opinion that taking away this power from Grand
Lodges to refuse will meet the case. (" No.") Why?
Mr. Gladstone : Because we must have the power to do work that is left undone.
Mr. M 'Donald : Is it not their belief that when the power is taken away from a
Grand Lodge, supposing it be taken away, the whole difficulty will be removed;
because, if they had no power to refuse, we could mission them at once, and it could
not be stopped.
Mr. Malins : My answer is that then the whole matter of missioning these
•excluded people would be at the option of the R.W.G.L. Executive, who in the past
have utterly failed in their duty.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And in that R.W.G.L. Executive, who have failed to do
their duty, the second highest officer was Joseph Malins, and I charge him, as one of
that Executive, with violation of his duty.
Mr. Malins : And although from the situation I was in, and although I inferred
and knew that the whites must have excluded the blacks in the South, or they would
not be out, it was not until after that manifesto was issued that I had a correspondent
among the coloured people in the Southern States, or had sufficient evidence to help
me to enter a charge. The facts were these, and though I knew them, I had not the
evidence, but Col. Hickman had. He has lived there and I have not.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : In the manifesto he says that at the London session there
were certain coloured lodges which were refused the password, and he was an
officer of the R.W.G.L., and next year the petitions came up again, so that at his
■entrance into office he had before him the memorial of coloured lodges that had not
the password. Therefore, according to this manifesto, he was in possession of the
facts to put before us at the Bloomington session, of the violation of the law.
Mr. Malins : I deny the two assertions Dr. Oronhyatekha has made. The
first is that I entered into office at the London session.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I did not say that.
Mr. Malins : At the time we were informed that the password was refused—
that was at the London session (1873). I was not chosen for office that year; and
the R.W.G.L. instantly, and with the help of my note, affirmed the law, and thereby
put an end to the evil if it carried out what it affirmed. He then makes another
assertion, that at the Boston session (1874) they again petitioned for a Grand Lodge,
and stated that they were still denied the password. I deny that I ever heard anything
of the kind. I supposed that the Grand Lodge of North Carolina had given them the
password. Produce anything to prove that at that session—we had the proof given
us at London—it was shown that they were still denied the password, or that we
were acquainted with the fact. I thought these lodges had the password when I
entered into office, and, as I repeat, was without a particle of proof that any Grand
Lodge in the Southern States refused the password on account of colour.
48
SECOND DAY.
Mr. M'Donald : I submit that it is surely a waste of time discussing whether
R.W.G.L. officers or representatives at any session either did or failed to do their
duty. That is not the question we are met here to consider. The question is, what
is the law of the R.W.G.L., or of Grand Lodges ? And we are met here to so try
and arrange the law that it may meet the evils Bros. Malins and Gladstone complain
of. I cannot waste my time discussing the failings of Bro. Malins or those he may
accuse. I have not come here for that purpose. I am here to find fault with the law,
if it is faulty, and to uphold it if it is right.
The Chairman : I would ask the conference to come to the point. I have,
perhaps with some impertinence, asked it several times to do this, and I do think
if we had adjourned yesterday afternoon as I suggested, and permitted the
American brethren to come with their proposals, by this time we might have
come to some arrangement. I think, however, we must allow Col. Hickman
at least till dinner time to make any remarks he chooses in reply to Mr. Malins.
I do hope we shall have their proposals in the afternoon, and that we shall come
to discuss what they have to propose for the future to remedy the evils which we all
admit, either in practice or in some other way. I do really feel as though I ought to
think about taking my hat and going home. I hope we shall not waste time, but
come to the point.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I heartily endorse every word that has fallen from your
lips, and every word that Bro. M'Donald has said, and we on this side have not yet
raised any of these points; but these utterances arfe going to the public, and if these
things are put forward we must answer them. JsTow, then, with reference to the
point
Mr. Malins : The point is that letter.
The Chairman : That point is insignificant. The point is the proposals of the
American brethren. (Rev. G. Gladstone and others, " Hear, hear.")
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The point is that the subordinate lodges from North
Carolina presented a petition at the London session applying for a separate Grand
Lodge charter. We were unable to grant that petition. At the next session they came
with the same petition, and the notice of motion was given. What I say is, that having
previously been brought before the notice of the R. W.G.L., it was fair to presume
that they were labouring under the same difficulties when they petitioned next year.
Mr. Malins: I wish to know whether charges are to be entered upon
assumptions.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I wish we had been moved to action only upon such
foundation, and not upon mere rumour and hearsays.
Mr. Gladstone : Mr. Chairman, we express our desire that your hint should be
taken. The only thing submitted to us, as a basis for reunion, was the substitute,
and we have been shut up to show that it was defective. Whenever we have the new
proposals I think we will get to work.
Mr. Stockbridge : Mr. Gladstone has put before the conference the very fact
which exists, that in the Grand Lodge of Kentucky the word "white" stands, and he
used, I believe, the words "the Grand Lodge of Kentucky will allow the R.W.G.L.
to go into its jurisdiction j" when, in fact, the Grand Lodge ought ,to do its duty, but
that word, which I think the conference ought not to forget, is legal—not by law of the
Good Templars, but by .the law of the land—and you have a letter here which shows
what they promise, and that promise should be taken as from brethren entitled to
some credit. I take it the conference will deal with the letter in this fair and
honourable way as intended.
The Chairman : Bro. Gladstone took the position that that word did not matter
one iota.
Mr. Malins : I wish to state just this fact, that I regard that letter, so far as
Kentucky is concerned, as evading the provisions, of the substitute, or rather the
construction of those provisions that we are expected to put upon them ; but, on the
other hand, it concedes one-half, or one part, of Bro. Gladstone's proposed amend¬
ment.
SECOND DAY.
49
Mr. Turnbull : All this has been said before, and is down on the record.
Mr. Malins : The concession referred to affects Kentucky, but there are thirteen
other States where the word "white" is not in the constitution but when they exclude
the blacks. It is a concession on the part of one-fourteenth of the Grand Lodges that
exclude the negroes, and then it is only one-half of what we asked for.
The Chairman : That has all been said before. We will now hear Col. Hickman.
Col. Hickman : It is with mingled pain and pleasure that I rise to address this
conference on the present occasion—pain because of the necessity for it, and pleasure
because I hope to be able to show that the insinuations against myself and the people
of the Southern States are not warranted, and that they will not bear the construction
which has been attempted to be placed upon them—pleasure because until the last I
hope for reunion. But, sir, I would certainly object to your expression that imme¬
diately, or, at any rate, when the afternoon session commences, we shall enter upon
the discussion of the proposals which I may have to offer, when it is not long to the
adjournment, and Bro. Malins stood on the floor over two hours.
Mr. Daniel : I know, Mr. Chairman, how you are pressed for time; but I would
suggest that Col. Hickman have all the time that he feels called upon to take.
The Chairman: Certainly, he must have as much time as Bro. Malins has had,
but after the Colonel has finished we will go to the question.
Col. Hickman : I have also to beg pardon of the gentlemen on the other side for
calling them "brethren," if it is objectionable to them. (Mr. Malins: It is not
objectionable.) I understood that Mr. Malins expressed a wish that he was in a
position to call us brethren.
Mr. Malins I have no personal objection. It was merely a legal technicality
which I desired to go upon the minutes.
Col. Hickman : I concluded that such was the case. Now it may seem to some
of the members of this conference, that the ground I propose to cover in a portion of
my speech is some distance from the question directly at issue; but this is made
necessary from the fact that the gentlemen on the other side have travelled over the
same ground in an opposite direction, and I claim the right to show consistency
where consistency exists, and inconsistency where it has been attempted to be shown.
It has been a fact, which has never been attempted to be denied, that in many of the
Southern States the coloured people were not in the Order. That is the record, and
there has been no attempt, on the part of the brotherhood, to deny that fact. That
is the point I want to call attention to ; and there has been, I must say, no attempt
on the part of the brethren here to be charitable to us owing to the differences of
education. We must all admit, brethren, that this has a great deal to do with our
action in life—our early training. It would not be expected of me to have been all
my life in harmony with the principles enunciated by the R.W.G.L. and held by the
brethren here when I have been educated differently. When you come to the
question of equality and the equal, rights of man, you should remember that I have
not been educated to believe in that. I have been educated from childhood just the
reverse ; and when, now in after life, I am satisfied in my own mind that it is a very
doubtful question that we should hold in bondage any of our fellow-creatures, and
when I announce it publicly and privately that I thank God there is not a single
solitary coloured person on American soil in bondage, I think I deserve some credit.
It must be remembered that the I.O.G.T. was started in 1851. At that time it was-
not thought by our Northern brethren that, in ten, twenty, or thirty years, the
institution of slavery would be destroyed in America. Therefore, when the Order
was originally established, it knew it did not have the power to confer upon the
coloured people in the South the benefits of the Order ; but time wore on, the great
abolition party in the North increased in power and numbers, and they placed their
candidate for President in the chair, and these difficulties between our sections arose,
and resulted in war—a war for over four years; a terrible strife, which I very deeply
deplore. At its conclusion, when the Southern people had made the best fight they
could under the circumstances, when they realised that all their vested rights in the
property guaranteed to them by the constitution, and that in far back years then-
Northern brethren had the same rights in a similar kind of property, and had no.t
E
50
SECOND DAY.
deemed it wrong to hold property of that character, it was not fit that when there
was no compensation offered, and the attempt was being made to take from them
what they possessed, that they should be required to give it up. I might go farther
back than that, and point out that in other lands slaves had been held, and that it
took years and years to eradicate the belief that they were lawful property, and to
come to that higher Christian Standard which the brethren on this side of the water
hold to-day. You will admit, then, that it requires time to change that which we
have been taught to believe from infancy. That was the case with my unfortunate
section of the country. Immediately after the close of the war the heads of our
Order were persons of abolition sentiments, men and women who were directly in
conflict with our education, and, at the. first moment the opportunity presented itself,
the R.W.G.L. took steps to accomplish a work among the coloured people. I am
not here to shirk anything. If our brethren are not charitable to me in the matter of
my education, or in the way I have acted, I can only say I have acted in good faith,'
and I am responsible to my Maker for it. If I have done wrong, it was an error of
the head and not of the heart. Immediately after the close of the war the R. W.G.L.
took steps to give the benefits of this Order to the coloured people, but you 'must
recollect that our country was torn from one end of it to the other, and particularly in
the Southern portion. There were prejudices, I do not deny these prejudices. There
are prejudices in England to-day, and no one denies it. You cannot legislate against
these prejudices; it takes time and education to remove them. Immediately after the
war we had enemies amongst us who took the coloured people and used them for
political purposes, and exasperated them against the men who had owned them. We
are told that we are slave drivers, that we have no sympathy or goodwill for the
coloured people. Well, when slavery had been destroyed, these same men who had
owned them, when they were turned out into a cold and uncharitable world—four
millions of them, without homes—it was these same men who gave them shelter, who
gave them homes. Now we will come closer down ; I was in the R.W.G.L. when
it saw the difficulties and passed the law—that law in vindication of the fundamental
principle which, I must say, was obnoxious to me, because it was in conflict with my
education. I did not, however, withdraw from the R.W.G.L. or from the Order. I
was compelled to bow in obedience to these laws. We will come to the Madison
session of the R. W.G.L. (1872). A petition came up at that session—I am trying
to show why in the South, in so many States, the Order of Good Templars has not
been introduced amongst the coloured people. At that session, in 1872, a petition
came up from Georgia and Alabama for a separate Order for the coloured people.
Here is the report—on page 44 of the Madison session—of the Committee on
Petitions and Memorials.
Madison, May 29, 1872.
To the Officers and Members of the R.W.G. Lodge.
Your Committee on Petitions and Memorials beg leave to submit the following
report as to the matters contained in the memerial signed by W. B. H. Searcey,
G.W.S. of Georgia, and A. S. Elliot, G.W.S. of Alabama, in reference to the future
relationship of the coloured population of America to our Order, and unanimously
recommend the following :—
I.—That the exclusive control of all the questions involved in the matter of
admitting coloured persons to membership in our Order, should be left entirely to the
■Grand Lodges already organised, or to be organised, in the territory of the late slave-
holding States.
II.—Inasmuch as your committee, from personal knowledge and information
which they deem reliable, as well as by the language of the memorialists themselves,
are assured that a separate and distinct organisation for them is the only means of
their recovering from the curse of the liquor traffic in those States.
We therefore unanimously recommend that this R.W.G. Lodge cause to be pre¬
pared and furnished, for the exclusive use of the coloured tace, a ritual and other
supplies necessary for their successful and speedy organisation.
III.—For the purpose of insuring the speedy consummation of their organisa¬
tion and equipment, we recommend that our present rituals, charters, &c., be used,
after striking out from the name of the Order the word " Good," and inserting the
SECOND DAY.
51
word " Coloured," with a suitable change in the unwritten work, and that the same
be furnished by the R.W.G.S., as all other supplies are now furnished, and at the
same price.
IV.—We are of opinion that the necessary expenses of this change should be
borne by the States benefited thereby, and that the same be apportioned by the
R.W.G.S. between the Grand Lodges now in existence in the South, and so
recommend.
V.—We further recommend that the present G.W.C.T.s and G.W.S.sof the
said Grand Lodges have the charge of the introduction of the said Order, and that
the G.W. Secretaries shall keep a general oversight of the same, and report the
general progress and success to the next session of this body, and to the future sessions
also, if hereafter deemed advisable.
Fraternally submitted in Faith, Hope, and Charity,
Tim Needham, \
S. J. Underwood,
W. S. Williams, [-Committee.
Annie Weichmann,
D. Boyd, j
Recollect that Sister Weichmann and Bro. Boyd were as ultra-abolitionists as could
be found. " The report was taken up seriatim. Section x, sending Representative
Ellis, of Michigan, offered the following substitute :—' Resolved, in view of the late
and present peculiar relation to races in a part of our jurisdiction, we hereby leave all
regulation in regard to that matter in the hands of the several Grand Lodges.'
Bro. Giles (another abolitionist) moved that the report, and all questions involved
therein, be referred to a special committee of five, consisting of Bros. Stearns,
Hickman, Orne, Chase, and Whittear, with instructions to report at the earliest
practicable time." This was lost. Then, on page 47, "The discussion of the report
of the Committee on Memorials and Representative Ellis's substitute was then
resumed. On motion, the time of the session was extended until six o'clock. (This
was on Wednesday, May 29th, 1872.) "Bro. Malins offered the following as an
amendment to the substitute:—' Resolved, that this R.W.G.L. confers upon all Grand
Lodges requiring it, the power to take steps to promote temperance among the
coloured people in such a manner as may be deemed best suited to their wants, to the
extent, if necessary, of forming an especial organisation for their benefit; provided
no part of the name or ritual of our Order be applied to any organisation other than
our own.' It was moved to recommit the report and amendment to the committee.
Carried. A motion to adjourn was not adopted. The committee on memorials
again submitted a report on the Georgia and Alabama Petition as follows :—
"Madison, May 29, 1872.
"Officers and Members,—We, your committee, to whom was referred the report
heretofore submitted on the matters contained in a certain memorial, signed by W.
E. H. Searcey, G. W.S. of Georgia, and A. S. Elliott, G.W.S. of Alabama, together
with all the accompanying resolutions, &c., &c., beg leave to report as follows :—
"I. We recommend that the prayer for a separate organisation among'the
coloured population of the Southern States be granted, and that this R. W.G. Lodge
hereby confers upon the Grand Lodges now organised, or that may be hereafter be
organised in any of the said Southern States, the entire control of the introduction and
management of the same within their respective jurisdictions, the principle having
already been recognised in the organisation of the Cold Water Templars.
"II.—We further recommend that a committee of three be selected by the
delegation present from the Grand Lodges South, who shall prepare a suitable ritual,
charter, odes, &c., &c., for the use of the said organisation, and submit the same at
as early a day as practicable, to the Executive Committee of this R. W.G. Lodge, for
their inspection and approval, and that when so approved by them the same shall be
printed and kept on hand for sale by the R. W.G. Secretary, as other supplies are now
done, at such prices as the said committee in conjunction with the Executive Com¬
mittee, shall recommend—Provided that but one such ritual and organisation shall be
authorised.
52
SECOND DAY.
"III.—We further recommend the adoption of the following resolution, viz.:—
"Resolved,—That this body hereby declares that all lodges have full power, under
our constitution, to grant or refuse to grant charters to any applicants ; and that no
lodge can be formed or continued within the jurisdiction of any Grand Lodge, against
the will of such Grand Lodge.
"Tim Needham, Chairman, Kentucky,\
" D. Boyd, Maine, j
" W. S. Williams, Canada, }• Committee."
"Annie Weichmann, Pennsylvania, I
"S. J. Underwood, Tennessee, J
"On the motion to adopt the previous question was ordered. The yeas and nays
were called, and the report was adopted by 39 for, and 22 against." Bro. Hastings
voted in the affirmative, and immediately moved a reconsideration showing that the
two brothers were in harmony at that time on this question.
Mr. Malins : I do not admit that.
Col. Hickman: It bears that construction. Now turn to page 63. This is on
May 30th. "The Committee on Memorials, having the memorial of the G.W.
Secretaries of Georgia and Alabama under consideration, reported back the report, as
found on page 48 of this Journal of proceedings. Bro. Black moved to strike out the
words ' or continued' in the last resolution, upon which considerable discussion
ensued. Representative Malins moved the adoption of his substitute (see page 48 of
this Journal) for the report. Bro. Black's amendment was lost. Bro. Malins substitute
was lost. Bro. Hastings then moved the following amendment to the report:—
' Resolved,—That this body hereby declares that all Grand Lodges have full power
under our constitution to grant, or refuse to grant, charters to any applicants; and
that no lodge can be formed within the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge against the
will of such Grand Lodge, and that a Grand Lodge has the power to revoke the
charter of any lodge within its jurisdiction, as provided by the constitution.'' Amendment
carried by a vote of 48 yeas to 30 nays." I cannot say which side Bro. Malins voted
on, but I am under the impression he voted on the side of the yeas.
Mr. Malins : I do not believe I did, because I stated in my report to the Grand
Lodge that I voted against the motion as amended, and I know I did from the part
I took in the debate.
Col. Hickman : If my memory serves me right it is not my impression. We would
have thought in the South that we were somewhat strengthened in our position had he
voted on the "no" side. It is not the impression of a single member from the South that
he opposed the report as amended. Now Bro. Malins comes back from that session,
and underthe head of "the negro question" reports (on page 9 of his report at the Preston
session of the Grand Lodge of England):—" The Negro Question,—It falls to my lot
to report the singular incidents which occurred at the R.W.G.L. during the discussion
of this, to me, unexpected topic. Our supreme head, acting upon its long-recognised
solicitude for the welfare of all the sons of men, has thrown open our portals to the
Indian and negro, as well as the white races. A few lodges have been formed in the
Southern States, some of which have a coloured membership. This fact prevents
the whites from joining an Order which would of necessity require the fraternal recog¬
nition of those who may but lately have left the house of bondage. The brethren
of Kentucky and Tennessee, desiring the adhesion of the whites, and at the same
time yearning for the salvation of the coloured people, yet realising the fact that they
cannot at present become co-workers together, would bow to expediency, and permit
such Southern Grand Lodges as may in future be formed to revoke the charters
which gave the coloured lodges within their jurisdiction full powers of representation,
&c."
Mr. Malins (interrupting): I speak here of what you attempted to do—" or
continued "
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Although an attempt was made by the Southerners to do>
this the R.W.G.L maintained its principles.
Col. Hickman : We desired it, but the R.W.G.L. said we should not have it.
Now I was justified in
SECOND DAY.
53
Mr. Malins : Yes, in striking out the words "or continued."
Col. Hickman (continuing to read): "And grant them in lieu thereof another charter
and ritual, specially framed, for the exclusive use of these people. A motion affirming
the right of Grand Lodges to do this was introduced at a morning session, and out of
courtesy to the Southern delegates, was allowed to occupy a deal of time. The
British and many of the Northern representatives feeling that a great principle was
involved in the question at issue, opposed it most strenuously; but as the evening
approached, and the time for adjournment was repeatedly extended, they were
grieved to observe that a thinned and wearied body were pressed to a vote, at a time
when a calm and dispassionate decision was an impossibility. We saw that the
adoption of this objectionable principle was inevitable, and by a rapid arrangement
our course was decided upon. Bro. Hastings and another of our sympathisers
purposely voted in the affirmative, and thus qualified themselves immediately on its
adoption to move a reconsideration. A few warning words from this veteran worker,
and the motion to reconsider prevailed, when I instantly moved an adjournment, which
was carried, and we dispersed to gather strength for the coming morrow. The
committee who had the resolution in hand, with my substitute, offered the following
resolution :—' That this body hereby declares that all Grand Lodges have full powers
to grant or refuse charters to any applicants; and that no lodge be formed or
continue within the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodges against the will of such Grand
Lodges, and that the Grand Lodge has the power to revoke the charter of any
lodge within its jurisdiction, as provided by the constitution.' Bro. Hastings moved
to strike out the words 'or continue,' and upon these simple words the whole
question hung. Their adoption with the resolution would have nullified the declara¬
tion of our ritual at institution, where it declares the lodge to be duly instituted and
organised, and, while obedient to the constitution and decisions of the Grand Lodge,
to be fully entitled to the rights and privileges of our Order." That is what was
adopted, and our Bro. Malins quotes it in his report:—"Bro. Hastings moved to
strike out the words ' or continue,' and upon these simple words the whole discussion
hung." We discussed it long, but were we successful ? No. We did not carry that
point, but we did not withdraw when we were defeated on that point. " And we
declared that 'a lodge, coloured or white, could never be deprived of their privileges
while its members followed the laws faithfully, even though their removal would result
in the enrolment of ten times their number. After many hours of intense debate,
during which no unkind word was uttered, the amendment was carried, and the
resolution, shorn of its sting, was adopted. I, however, voted against it even in that
form, for reasons which will be apparent to many." (Addressing Mr. Malins.) "Do
I understand you to say you voted against the report of that committee as
amended on the final vote?"
Mr. Malins : Most certainly. It is so mentioned in my report.
Col. Hickman: I do not remember it, but the records of the R.W.G.S. will
show; but I will take your word for it. You go on to say—"But the end was not
yet reached. We had sat the usual time—three days—but a fourth day's work was
before us, and fewer to do it, for several from the North, not having anticipated so
long a session, had to start homeward on the third day, leaving us exposed to a peril
which I secretly dreaded, and not without reason, as the sequel proved ; for, as our
reduced numbers were nearing the close of their labours, one of the Southerners
moved that the vote of yesterday be reconsidered. I raised a point of order—(this
was after the adoption of the report as amended by Bro. Hastings)—that the mover
had not voted in the affirmative on the resolution. The point was decided to be well
taken, and his motion fell through ; when, to our dismay, two kind-hearted brethren,
who had voted in the affirmative, but thought to see an agreeable compromise,
actually moved and seconded a reconsideration, and thus reopened the grave of an
unsound principle; but it was moved, ' That the motion to reconsider be laid upon
the table.' This Bro. Walker seconded, and our noble Order was a third time saved
from what, to us at least, would have been an irretrievable disgrace. I thank God
that Great Britain was represented at this great gathering, and was able to turn the
scale against those whom we learned to oppose and to love at the same time. Now the
matter is settled." (It will be remembered that the principal thing in this report
that was adopted hung on that word, "continue." "Now the matter is settled.'1''
54
SECOND DAY.
How settled ? By the adoption of that report as amended by Bro. Hastings, allowing
that separate Order.) " We may never expect such a contest again "
Mr. Malins rose to an explanation.
Col. Hickman : There is the record, and I submit, as that is a matter of record
in the proceedings of the Grand Lodge
The Chairman : As I shall not allow any reply from Bro. Malins, perhaps
Mr. Gladstone : Do I understand that you will not give us a reply ? There
are facts that we want to submit
The Chairman : I feel I must take a stand somewhere, or this discussion will go¬
on for a week. If any incorrect statement is made by the Colonel, you shall have
full liberty to get up and correct it at the time it is made ; but I must rule that when
Col. Hickman sits down, we have no further speeches till the proposals are laid
before us.
Mr. Malins : I wish to say that when this motion for a separate Order was-
adopted, I voted against it, yet when it had been adopted, and it was moved
to reconsider by a Southerner who wanted to put. in the words "or continued,"
again I approved of keeping the objectionable thing rather than have this terrible
thing put in again. I said, " Now the matter is settled." What was settled ? Not
the right of the South to exclude the negro, but to form an Order for them on their
statement that it was necessary, as they could not and would not join our Order.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The report is headed, "The negro question." So it is
"the negro question " that was settled.
Mr. Malins: No, the question that was settled Was that the white Grand Lodges
could not blot out the coloured sublodges; and another thing, that the R.W.G.L.
resolved to constitute a committee to prepare a separate Order for the coloured people,
but not that they were to be excluded if they applied. I admit that the R.W.G.L.
projected the establishment of an Order for the coloured people on the ground of
necessity, or an alleged ground of necessity.
Col. Hickman:- I go to the record and find Bro. Malins saying " the matter is
settled, we may never expect such a contest again." It was settled that a lodge
could not have its charter revoked except in a constitutional way, and the negro
question was settled by the authorisation of a separate Order for the benefit of the
coloured people. Now comes the point as to why the coloured people have not been
in the Grand Lodges South. If the R.W.G.L. authorised a separate Order, the
South had a right to put into operation that separate Order. (Hear, hear.) Now
did it put that separate Order into operation? In Right Worthy Grand Templar
Hastings' report at the Boston session of 1874, he says :—" It is with great pleasure
that I am enabled to report very great prosperity and a large increase in the Order in
the Southern States of the American Union. This is especially true of the States of
Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, and Missouri. On my
return from London, in September last, I found an intense feeling of excitement
prevailing in several of these States, growing out of misapprehension of the action of
this body touching the question of lodges for the coloured people at the South." Now
I want to remark, you ask why did this action at London produce disturbance in the
South? Because news of it was received unofficially, and not exactly in the form
in which it was passed. The impression of the South was that the R.W.G.L.
had not been acting fair at that session in regard to what they had authorised at
the preceding session, but they found out better when they saw the record. I
have never thought for one moment, nor do I know of any individual in the South
or elsewhere who did not recognise the fact that, so far as the laws of the Order
were concerned, it knew no difference on account of race or colour, but they
believed that the R.W.G.L. had permitted the existence of a separate Order,
so that the pledge of total abstinence might be given to the greatest number.
Insinuations have been thrown out that officers sometimes have not discharged their
duty. What did I do ? I, too, was under a misapprehension when I first received
the news, but after I learned the true facts of the case; here is the testimony :—■
'With the most efficient aid of our worthy brother, f. J. Hickman, P.R.W.G.
Counsellor, who, at his own expense, went from one Grand Lodge session to another,
SECOND DAY.
55
explaining the real situation of matters and urging moderation, the matter was finally
understood, and perfect harmony and good feeling restored. A council to decide what
action should be taken by the Southern Grand Lodges, convened at Atlanta, Ga., on
the 12th November last. Delegates were present from Kentucky, Tennessee,
Alabama, and Georgia. The whole matter was laid before the council in a most
able and lucid report by Bro. Hickman, when the following resolutions were unani¬
mously adopted : "After a careful examination of the explanation by the R.W.G.
Templar, S. D. Hastings, of the action taken by the R.W.G. Lodge at its recent
session in London, relative to the subject of negro lodges, we, as a council of the
Southern Grand Lodges, submit that the R.W.G. Lodge, having disclaimed all
intention to detract from the rights guaranteed to us, and that we have full
protection under our charters and laws; therefore be it—'Resolved, That there exists
no further cause for disagreement between the Southern Grand Lodges and R.W.G.
Lodge.' 'Resolved, That we recommend to the several Grand Lodges represented
by us that we retain our relationship with the R.W.G. Lodge as heretofore.'
' Resolved, That we again renew our earnest and fraternal efforts to advance the
cause of our noble Order; to save the youth of our land from ruin, and the inebriate
from the drunkard's grave.' And most nobly and faithfully have they worked from
that day to this in spreading our Order in their several States, and in labouring for
the advancement of the great cause. At the eighteenth session of this body the
following recommendations, reported by a committee to whom the matter was
referred, were adopted, viz. :—I. We recommend that the prayer for a separate
organisation among the coloured population of the Southern States be granted, and
that this R.W.G. Lodge hereby confers upon the Grand Lodges now organised, or
that may hereafter be organised, in any of the said Southern States, the entire control
of the introduction and management of the same within their respective jurisdictions,
the principle having been recognised in the reorganisation of the Cold Water Templars.
2. We further recommend that a committee of three be selected by the delegation
present from the Grand Lodge South, who shall prepare a suitable ritual, charter,
odes, etc., for the use of the said organisation, and submit the same, at as early a day
as practicable, to the Executive Committee of this R. W. G. Lodge, for their inspection
and approval; and that, when so approved by them, the same shall be printed and
kept on hand for sale by the R.W.G. Secretary, as other supplies are now done, at
such prices at the said committee in conjunction with the Executive Committee, shall
recommend ; provided that but one such ritual and organisation shall be authorised.
There was some delay in the preparation of the ritual, etc., for the new organisation,
but the work was finally completed and accepted by the committee, and has recently
been placed under the control of the R.W.G. Lodge, and will be seen by the following
report from the chairman of the committee, P.R.W.G.C., J. J. Hickman :—
"Atalanta, Ga., April 21, 1874.
'To S. D. Hastings, R.W.G.T., and to R.W.G.L, Executive Committee.
' Brethren,—At the session of the R.W.G.L., held in Madison, Wis., a resolution
passed that body, giving its sanction for the institution of a new Order of Temperance
for the benefit of the coloured people in the several Southern States. That resolution
also provided for the appointment of a committee to carry out the objects of the
R.W.G.L., to prepare ritual, etc., and then report to the R.W.G.L. At a meeting
of the R.W.G.L. Executive Committee last year, held in Cleveland, Ohio, the
undersigned was appointed chairman of a committee, composed of Bros. Bain,
Needham, and Hickman. Pressing duties caused considerable delay, and several
months elapsed without anything having been done to carry out the objects of the
resolution. At a subsequent meeting of the R.W.G.L. Executive Committee the
undersigned was appointed to prepare the ritual of the new Order. In the meanwhile,
the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, seeing the necessity of such an organisation, made a
movement in that direction, appointing one of our best men (Rev. H. A. M.
Henderson) to prepare the ritual of the new Order. Having more calls in different
sections of the country to labour in behalf of the cause than I could possibly attend
to, and being so actively engaged in the prosecution of the work in the several
Southern States, I thought it wise to wait and see the results of Bro. Henderson's
efforts, knowing if the new Order suited Kentucky, it would suit and satisfy the
South. After examining the new ritual of the United Order of True Reformers
56
SECOND DAY.
prepared by Bro. Henderson, I found that it possessed merit, and concluded, as the
committee of the R. W.G.L., to adopt it instead of preparing a new one. I made the
proposition to the Executive Committee of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, to pay
them for the preparation of the ritual, etc., of the United Order of True Reformers.
The proposition was accepted, and the amount agreed upon ($150) was, by order of
R.W.G.T, Hastings, paid to to the G.W.S. of Kentucky, and all the rituals (265), as
well as the constitutions (1,400 in number), were turned over to me, and are now held
by me as the property of the R.W.G.L. There might be some changes suggested as
regards the ritual of the new Order, but it would probably not be wise to suggest
them now. This new Order has been introduced and is in successful operation in
several of the Southern States, and both races are very much interested in its progress.
The Good Templars of the several Southern States have gladly adopted it, and are
determined to make it a success. I am glad to be able to state, in this conection,
that the Order of Good Templars was never more prosperous than now; and both
white and black seem determined to press on to victory; and as one who
has laboured long with my brethren of the South, I am prepared to say
that they are determined to carry out the Madison resolutions, and only ask
that brethren of the North and East assist them to carry out fully and to
the letter all the provisions of the above-named resolutions. And now, as all things
are quiet between the sections, and as all are at peace with one another, may
we not confidently hope that nothing will again arise to disturb the peace and har¬
mony now existing between us; but, on the other hand, that we may remain so
united in true love and friendship for one another, that we will be enabled to stand
as one man in the advocacy of the principles of our Order, until the victory shall be
ours, and the white-winged artgels of peace shall ascend to heaven, having on their
spotless wings—Prohibition.
"Submitted in F., H., and C.,
'J. J. Hickman, Chairman Committee.'"
Now I said there was sectional feeling in our country between the sections; we
•were trying to heal it as best we could that we might all come together. Bro.
Hastings says, on page 23:—"The new Order is known as the United Order of
True Reformers, and has an existence in Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama and Georgia;
and several other States, I understand, are anxious and willing to introduce the Order
as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made for doing so. In the month of
April I made a short tour through the South with a view of doing something to render
the kind feeling which had grown up between the Southern Lodges and the R.W.G.
Lodge permanent and lasting, and also to form an opinion, from observation made on
the spot, of the feelings of the people, and of the situation and prospects of the
Order in that section of the country. As the representative of our great organisation,
I was treated with the utmost kindness and respect. Everywhere I found the most
gratifying evidences of the growth of the Order. It seems to have been well
established, and to have drawn to its support a class of men and women well qualified
to sustain and carry it forward. The kindest feeling seemed to exist towards the
members of the Order in all parts of the world. All feeling growing out of the mis¬
apprehension of the action of this body on the question of Lodges among the
coloured people seems to have subsided. I became satisfied that there is a sincere
and earnest desire on the part of the members of the Order at the South to do all
in their power to save the coloured population from the evils of intemperance, and
that if wise and prudent counsels prevail in the action of this R.W. G. Lodge, there
will be no further trouble growing out of this question, and that in a few years the
great problem that has troubled us so much in the past will be worked out at the
South in a way that will be satisfactory to all. The destiny of the two races at the
South is inseparably linked together. The liquor traffic is the enemy of both.
By united action they can soon gain the victory; without it they never can. They are
beginning to understand this ; and as they labour together for a common object, they
will learn to respect and honour each other, and they will gradually grow into such
relations as will enable them to work most effectually against the common enemy.
The Southern States have a population better situated to secure a speedy triumph over
the liquor traffic, than either the Northern, Eastern, or Western States, and I con¬
fidently expect to see them among the first to wheel into line as the successful
SECOND DAY.
57
advocates of the entire prohibition of the importation, manufacture, and sale of in¬
toxicating drinks. May God speed the work !" He came down and saw the diffi¬
culty, that we only required a short time to accomplish all that could be asked. One
or two years could not take away the prejudices of a lifetime education, but
my brother saw for himself, as I wanted my British brethren to come and see
for themselves, the status between the white and coloured people. That was one
motive I had in asking them to come South; another was to greet you as a brother,
so that when we came together we might understand one another and know how
to act.
Mr. Gladstone : Whilst unable to accept the invitation, I did take care to
make inquiry throughout the South, and of the negro himself.
Mr. Malins : Our Grand Lodge session only met at the latter end of April,
so there was not time for us to come.
Col. Hickman : One of the brethren did come, and while there he joined the True
Reformers. (Hear, hear.) At this point I will close until the afternoon session.
Mr. M'alins : Just a word. I wish to call attention to the fact that we have
'Occupied a day and a half and have not yet the definite proposals before us. I wish
this to go on the minutes that we had hoped to close this conference to-night, but we
are not to see these proposals until we actually assemble for the afternoon session,
and after the Colonel has closed. It puts us at a great disadvantage, and if when
they are submitted we feel that they are such that we have need to confer together
before we reply, we may have to ask for a short adjournment on that account. We
do not want very long, but at the same time I deeply regret that these proposals are
not produced yet, and I do not understand their being withheld so long. We stated
hours ago that we rejected the substitute.
Mr. M'Donald : If that is to go on the minutes let it be understood that a great
portion of the time was occupied by Mr. Malins in entering into details of certain
printed matter.
Mr. Morgan suggested that Col. Hickman should be allowed to proceed before
ithey adjourned for dinner.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I desire that these words should go on record if those oif
Mr. Malins are put on. That yesterday we said we were prepared to receive whatever
they asked. We said, tell us what you want, and we shall consider it whether or not
we have power to grant it; and if so we shall do so. The reply was, we have no
proposals to make. We then offered the substitute as our proposal, and yet we are
told we have kept back our proposal. We offered that with an intimation that if
they pointed out where it wanted amendment we would try to meet them.
Mr. Daniel : As a basis of negotiations.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Certainly.
Mr. Gladstone : We had already intimated what we desired, and said we had
seen no reason to alter our position.
Mr. Kempster : And we had been promised the proposals in Liverpool and have
been promised them here.
Col. Hickman : I do not think this is fair. It seems to imply that I am with¬
holding them for a purpose. I have the right in presenting any proposition to submit
it with a speech, and am doing so now in answer to Mr. Malins' speech.
The Chairman thought the substitute was offered as a basis on which dis¬
cussion could take place with a view to reunite. Mr. Gladstone had objected to it,
and had offered his amendment, moved at Louisville, as a substitute. He (the
Chairman) had suggested that they should stop there, and try to embody in the
substitute the principles at any rate of Bro. Gladstone's amendment, and all the
discussion since confirmed the strong opinion he entertained then, that if we had
taken that course we would have been done by this time.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And the time has been taken up ever since then by Bro.
Malins.
Mr. Malins : And with a tremendous number of little speeches, and under
protest, as I did not want to discuss that substitute, having done so at Louisville.
58
SECOND DAY.
Mr. Gladstone : I proposed my amendment in the absence of anything else.
Afterwards the Doctor presented the substitute.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And then you offered the amendment again as a substitute
for my substitute.
The conference adjourned at 12 40 p.m. until 1 30.
Afternoon Sitting.
The conference resumed at I 30 p.m.
Present, same as at morning session.
The Chairman : Before the discussion commences, there is a point I should like
to lay before the conference, in reference to the arrangements. Bro. Malins has made:
his statement; Col. Hickman is replying to it; there are many matters introduced
that were not in Mr. Malins' speech. I think I must abide by the ruling that I gave,
that when the Colonel sits down we have the proposals, and when we have got
through these, then any reply they may wish to make. I think this would be perfect
fairness to all parties, especially as there has been a considerable amount of new
matter introduced by the Colonel.
Mr. Malins : When the proposals are submitted, we can, in a very few minutes,
say whether we accept them or not.
Col. Hickman : It was not understood by this side, that this discussion was to
be allowed—from your ruling—longer than the answer to Mr. Malins' speech. We
have conducted the discussion with that understanding; if there is to be a change now
it does seem to me it does not cover what we understood before I took the floor to'
discuss the question. If it is a fault not to bring up prominent points, which might
have been an advantage to their side of the question, such as I have brought upon
mine, the fault is not mine, but theirs. I ought to have known that they were to be
allowed to make other points, if such is the case, for I shall be unable, from my state
of health, to make any reply to the rejoinder of Messrs. Malins and Gladstone.
The Chairman : They have agreed to make explanations whilst you go on; but
I feel called upon to rule that we must come to the question when Col. Hickman sits
down; but I think there should be an opportunity afterwards of making any explanation,
Mr. Gladstone : Whilst it is quite true that Mr. Malins has delivered a lengthy
address, he has by no means brought forward a number of points that several of us
wish to bring forward, and several brethren here have much to say. I do not
understand that, because one of our brethren has made an address, none of us are to
say anything.
The Chairman : It would be out of court to rule that brethren should not have
an opportunity of having their say within a reasonable limit, but I do think that
I must rule that when the Colonel sits down we have the American proposals.
Mr. Morgan quite agreed with the ruling.
Col. Hickman : Do I understand that, after I shall have concluded my remarks-
and have submitted what I may have to submit to this conference, the discussion that
comes up is not to be on the proposals submitted by me, or may they go back and
discuss any ground that seems proper ?
Mr. Pyper : As the representative of one of the Grand Lodges, I have been-
most anxious that the proposals should be put before us, as we should have got through
the business far more speedily than we have done ; but there are three other Grand
Lodges which are equally interested, and we have something to do in representing
their feelings, but I think it better to wait until the proposals are before us and we
can deal with them according to the best of our judgment. In a conference we are
equally bound to give expression to what we believe to be our views.
Col. Hickman : I submit that the speech of Mr. Malins is simply a rehearsal
of what he considers to be infractions of the law, or. the failure of the R.W.G.L. to
carry out its laws in the past, or to show that the substitute is not what they
desire. I am simply replying to that speech which compels me to take up the
history of the past. I understood it to be your ruling that when I had concluded
SECOND DAY.
59'
my speech I should submit whatever I had, and then the discussion was to turn on
the proposals submitted, and to this I have no objection.
Mr. Malins : Against my will I have been obliged to discuss the substitute. I
finished on behalf of my colleagues by declining to accept that substitute. The
Colonel now, I understand, rises not to argue with us about the substitute; we will
not have that substitute, complete or incomplete. I understand he does not rise to
refute my statements as to the futility of that substitute, or to rebut anything I may .
have stated, but primarily, we having rejected the substitute, he rises to produce
something else; and I ask, and my colleagues will ask, the same privilege that has
been accorded to the other side of the house, that of rising to a point of correction,
or to make a reply to any statement immediately requiring refutation. Now if no
interruptions are allowed we shall have to follow and refute the statements made; but
if you will pursue the same course you have hitherto, I hope we shall have no return
speech, but simply retire and discuss the proposals when they are submitted^
Col. Hickman : Mr. Malins gave reasons why they could not accept the sub¬
stitute, and if they want to interrupt me as they did him, I have no objection at all.
I wish simply to submit what I may have to submit.
The Chairman : If there is any point you think is not correctly stated, you or
your colleague may state your view of the case.
The minutes of the morning session were then read and approved.
Mr. Malins : I do not think I need make any remarks at all except on two
points — in answer to points made by Col. Hickman. He has referred to the
straight deliverance at the London session, that deliverance that the password cannot
be withheld on account of colour. He has impressed upon us the fact that though he
did not like that deliverance he did not' secede.
Col. Hickman : When I received information in regard to the action of
R.W.G.L. at London, I did not agree with what I heard, but when I found the
correct statement of that deliverance, I fully accorded with it, and so I do now. Any
lodge that is instituted legally does not forfeit its charter, and, black or white, is
entitled to the password.
Mr. Malins : Of course the Colonel's remarks will go on the record. I read from-
the Journal of the annual session of the Grand Lodge of North Carolina in 1874.
The G.W.C.T. reports as follows:—"The question of coloured Good Templars has
been of some moment in connection with the history of our organisation, and I deem
it due to you that I should briefly make some mention of the stewardship of your
Executive Committee during the past year. The southern delegation, on their return
from the R.W.G.L. at London, last fall, felt aggrieved at the action of that body on
the colour question, and manifested some disposition looking to sectional legislation
or separation. Just before the adjournment of the Grand Lodge at Greensboro' a
despatch was received by my immediate predecessor—Bro. Pritchard—from Bro.
Hickman, P.R.W.G. Counsellor, asking that our Grand Lodge appoint five delegates-
to meet in convention with others from the South, at such time and place as might be
agreed upon, to consider the propriety of a separation from the R.W.G.L., and the
establishment of a R.W.G.L. South. On receipt of the communication the Grand
Lodge went into executive session, when the matter was freely and thoroughly discussed
and finally decided that such action would be unwise and was not justified on the part
of the R. W. G.L., and the Grand Lodge declined to appoint any such delegates or in any
way participate in the proposed convention." It seems that the summons for the first
convention was for separation, but was not responded to by this Grand Lodge. "Tn-
the following month Bro. Pritchard received a letter from Bro. Hickman which said,
'There will be a convention of Southern delegates held at Atalanta on the 12th
November to settle the colour question to the satisfaction of the entire South. It is
very important for you to attend.'" The first despatch seems to have suggested
secession, but in the second is a suggestion to patch up the matter, as the project for
secession was not favourably entertained by that Grand Lodge. A letter follows
from the G.W.C.T. of this State, who says "Bro. Hickman urged with great force the
importance of the attendance of some representative from this State." The G. W. C.T.
sayS;—His letter was referred to me, and after careful consideration of the question I
felt convinced that no such precipitate action was necessary, and so informed Bro. P.
6o
SECOND DAY.
■by letter, which was forwarded to Bro. Hickman. Then follows a copy of the letter
of the G.W.C.T., sent to Bro. Hickman :>—"Yours of the 5th inst. to hand, enclosing
communication from Bro. Hickman, which I have carefully read, and in reply to
yours must say that after the action of our Grand Lodge at Greensboro', I should not
feel willing to either attend or recommend any representative from our State to the
Atalanta convention While we cannot for a moment tolerate anything
like social affiliation with the negro in our Order, and will resist, at the proper time,
to the bitter end any movement having such a tendency, I do not now think that
-contingency has arisen." I shall not read any further extracts ; that is just one point.
On the other I will content myself with quoting without remark from the Journal of
the Grand Lodge of Tennessee for 1873, the same year but a little later on than the
London session of R.W.G.L.:—
"The following communication was received from the Grand Lodge of Georgia :
"Rome, Ga., Sept. 29th, 1873.
"This is to certify that our esteemed brother J. J. Hickman, R. W.G. Counsellor,
was appointed by the Grand Lodge, Independent Order of Good Templars of the
State of Georgia, to represent said Grand Lodge in the ensuing meetings of the Grand
Lodges of Alabama, Kentucky, and Tennessee, and also to make such statements as
he may deem proper in behalf of Georgia Good Templars to the Executive Committee
of the R.W.G.L.
"L. R. Gwaltney, G.W.C.T.
"Official—Samuel C. Robinson, G.W.S.
"This communication was ordered to be inserted in the minutes.
" Bro. Hickman was officially introduced to the Grand Lodge, and by request
• explained the recent action of the Right Worthy Grand Lodge on the coloured
question.
" A letter follows, written by Col. Hickman to the Grand Lodge of Tennessee,
the last clause of which reads: Below will be found the questions propounded to the
R. W. G. T., S. D. Hastings. They will certainly satisfy every true temperance man and
woman in the South.' " The following are the interrogatories: " Did the resolution
passed in London, directing the G.W.C.T. of North Carolina to give the password to
the coloured lodges in that State (if entitled to it), repeal the resolution offered by
you, and passed by the R.W.G.L. at the Madison session?" This is S. D.
Hastings' reply. " The substance of the resolution referred to gives each Grand
Lodge the control of all lodges within its jurisdiction the power to accept or reject
applicants for membership. In reply to this I would say that there was nothing done
at the London session of our Grand Lodge that conflicts in the least degree with the
action taken at the Madison session to which you refer. The action still stands un¬
repealed and unchanged, and is now, as it was then, the law of the Order. You
inquire second, if application was made to the G.W.S. or Chief Templar of Ken¬
tucky, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, or any of the Southern States, for a charter to
organise a coloured lodge, and the G.W.S. or G.W.C.T. should refuse the charter,
would you, as R.W.G.T., direct said charter to be granted, or would you hold the
Grand Lodge for refusing to grant the charter, in contempt to the laws of the
R.W.G.L. ? To this question, I reply that the matter of granting or refusing to grant
charters to applicants within the jurisdiction of a Grand Lodge, is a matter entirely
; under the control of the Grand Lodge and its officers, and that the action of the
Grand Lodge in such cases is not a matter of review by the R.W.G.T. or the
R.W.G.L., and should an appeal come to me in a case of this kind, I should at once
dismiss it for want of jurisdiction."
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Were these submitted to and confirmed by the
R.W.G.L.?
Mr. Malins : No, and that does not require any remark. The decisions were
made in answer to questions framed by Col. Hickman, and accepted by him and the
South as satisfactory. Mr. Hastings did not include them in his report at Boston.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Therefore they were never confirmed by the R.W.G.L.,
.and so far as the Order is concerned practically are not law.
Mr. Malins: The point I am making is the inconsistency. "You inquire
SECOND DAY.
6l
in the third place: The above-named States, acting under the (Madison) resolu¬
tion referred to (with the exception of Kentucky, which has had from its organization
the word white, as eligibility to membership) have declared that none but white persons
were eligible to membership. Now will the R.W.G.L. force the States to receive
either white or coloured into the Order, after having given them the control over the
question of membership in the resolution passed at the Madison session ? In answer
to this question I would say that the R.W.G.L. has placed this matter as to who shall
be received into the Order within the bounds of a Grand Lodge, in the control of such
Grand Lodge, and in no case will the R.W.G.L. attempt to interfere with the exercise
of the power thus delegated to Grand Lodges."
Col. Hickman : I have not one particle of objection to Mr. Malins taking half an
hour to answer these two points, and I am glad he mentions them. The records bear
out my statement this morning, and show I was perfectly consistent; for I then stated
I was not satisfied with the action at London, and hence my action towards North
Carolina. When, however, I ascertained the true facts, I was satisfied with it, and I
went to the Georgia Grand Lodge—Bro. Stearns will bear me out, for I was in New
York at the time—I went to the Georgia Grand Lodge, and there I found the Grand
Lodge was about to be destroyed because of this. Judge Underwood requested me,
and I was requested by the brethren, as they had a high regard for me and as I had saved
them two or three times in the course they had been about to take, not to say one
word in the Grand Lodge; but as I had heard the true facts, and had been an officer
in the R.W.G.L., I thought it my duty to make a statement, and I made a two
hours' speech to save the Grand Lodffe, and did so, and I was appointed to make the
same statement to the Grand Lodge of Alabama. Had it not been for my efforts the
Grand Lodge would have gone out, because they had heard what I heard, and which
was not satisfactory to me. I consider I was consistent throughout. I did not from
what I first heard like what was done, but when I was correctly informed I went to
that convention as referred to in the R.W.G. Templars report at Boston (1872). I
went to them and told them that sub-lodges legally formed were entitled to the pass¬
word, regardless of colour. I asked these questions in good faith. Another thing,
it must be remembered that there had already been a secession in the South, in
Georgia, and other Southern States, from the Sons of Temperance, and a separate
Order had been established on a white basis, and this new separate Order was doing
everything possible to create a prejudice against the Good Templars; and everything
they could possibly get against us was put into print, and put into the whiskey
journals. That Order is now fighting us all the time, and we have had to take very
extreme measures sometimes, in order to relieve ourselves. We have suffered far
more than you have suffered. A brother, the same brother who signed the first
petition from Georgia, the then G.W.S. of the State, seceded, and is now at the
head of the new Order in Georgia. I went in good faith to Georgia and Alabama,
and saved them. After I had made my speech they unanimously resolved to remain
faithful to the R.W.G.L., and Bro. Thompson, the leader on that occasion, is now
one of the most active supporters we have; and when our brethren laid off their
regalias at Bloomington, he was as sorry as any one. There has been no conflict or
inconsistency in my position at all. Not one particle.
Mr. Gladstone : I appreciate entirely the efforts Col. Hickman has put forth
in the South, but when he mentions his success we ought clearly to understand what
that success was. In the Journal of the Grand Lodge of Alabama for 1873, we find
the record, and I call your attention to the success gained by Col. Hickman, so that
we may fairly understand what was done; A committee reporting on the matter
sayS :—"By its (R.W.G.L.) own legislation, Grand Lodges have sole and complete
jurisdiction over all the territory and lodges within their bounds ; in every case where
parties have appealed to the R.W.G.L. to interpose in their behalf and thus ignore or
override a Grand Lodge, the superior power has disavowed all right to act, and have
referred said appellants back to the Grand Lodge." And the first resolution adopted
was, "That we will submit to no action by any parties, whether individuals or lodges,
which interferes with or disturbs the social relations of the white and coloured races."
I just wish to say that we do not look upon that as a success, but as a failure. You
must excuse us, but we feel it to be so.
Col. Hickman : That is three or four years ago, and wise men sometimes change.
6 2
SECOND DAY.
Mr. Gladstone : I am simply pointing out a fact. Col. Hickman went to
settle matters, and that is how it was done.
Col. Hickman : I have never been here to admit that. My education was equal
to his on a question of social equality. In addition to this, I do not understand that
thel.O.G.T. was established with its prime object to declare the equality of man.
It had a higher object than that. Such a declaration any one might make. Would
that lift a single individual, white or black, out of the gutter of intemperance?
Mr. Gladstone : From the Tennessee Grand Lodge Journal of 1873, we find that
<fBro. Hickman's explanations and remarks having given entire satisfaction, supported
as they were by the questions propounded by him, and the answers to the same by
R.W.G. Templar S. D. Hastings, the Grand Lodge passed unanimously the following
resolutions: Resolved, ' That this Grand Lodge does not consider that the resolution
passed at the London session affects the membership in this State, or takes from the
■Grand Lodge the power granted to the several States by the R.W.G.L., to accept or
reject applicants for membership.' Resolved, ' That the Grand Lodge of Tennessee
will maintain friendly and fraternal relations with the R.W.G.L., so long as we are
permitted to retain the power we now have over the question of membership and
visiting members.' Resolved, ' That as this Grand Lodge declared that none but
white persons can become members of the Order in Tennessee, that we will continue
to stand by this declaration, and, again,, say that none but white persons are eligble
to membership.'" That is where disturbance had arisen, because of the clear
deliverance made by the R.W.G.L., and Col. Hickman went down to put matters
straight for both races. Then the next resolution is, Resolved, " That, while we
declare our Order in this State a white man's Order, we do so because we know that
the social mingling of the race in the Order would entirely destroy its protection and
blessings to both races, and do not do so because we are not well wishers of the
fcoloured race; but, on the other hand, we will aid them all in our power to become
sober, moral, and upright citizens." From the first, we have admitted the interest of
the Southern brethren in the coloured race; from the first, I have intimated that the
reason why they would not accede to the amendment was because they believed it
Would destroy the Order in the South; but I may only point out that here is a reso¬
lution come to in London; it is found to be very inconvenient, as it is misunderstood,
and a preparation is made for secession.
Col. Hickman : I will undertake to say that the only intimation is myfelegram.
Mr. Gladstone : I repeat what has already been quoted that brethren were
summoned for the institution of a R. W.G.L. for the Southern States on a white basis.
That is not gone into, but these Grand Lodges' resolve and re-resolve that they will
not open the Order to the blacks, but will stand by the R. W.G.L. only so long as it
does not interfere with them in the matter.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Do I understand that Mr. Gladstone recognised the fact
that his amendment was not accepted by the South—not because they did not take an
interest in the coloured race, and not because they desired to exclude the negro from
the Order, but because it would be injurious to the Order in the South, both among
the coloured and the whites ?
Mr. Gladstone : Not among the coloured, but in the Order as existing. What
I say is that the brethren from the South repeatedly stated, and I believe they stated
what was in their hearts, that if the blacks were admitted into the Order in the South
the whites would leave it, and as the result the Order, as it now exists there, would be
-destroyed. Our contention was that it would not, and that if some of the whites
Vent out, we should have more gain.
Col. Hickman : I have had only about ten minutes out of this hour, I am not
detaining the conference. Let it be distinctly understood that when I fully understood
the action taken by the R.W.G.L. at London, I at once endeavoured to remedy the
evil that had been caused by the misunderstanding as far as possible, and I showed
my consistency by the course I took. I went to these Grand Lodges because I
loved the Order, and I wanted to save it from destruction, and I showed that the
R. W.G.L. was clear on the coloured question in all its deliverances, and that it still
recognised the new Order it had authorised at Madison in 1872.
SECOND DAY.
63
Mr. Malins : But they were not to exclude the negro.
Col. Hickman : The Southern people believed they had the right under that
action of forming these coloured people into a separate Order.
Mr. Malins : And you were R.W.G.C. and allowed them to understand it
that that empowered them to exclude the negro ?
Col. Hickman : I am trying to be thrown off my line of argument.
Mr. Gladstone : No ; we only want to elicit information.
Col. Hickman : I retract it. An attempt was made on the part of the brethren
on the other side to show my inconsistency. I made a full statement at the morning
session of how I tried to remedy the evils. Mr. Malins rises, and reads these things,
which only confirm my consistency.
Mr. Gladstone: Extraordinary!
Col. Hickman : No; not extraordinary, because from what I heard after I had
sent the despatch, I did not agree with what I had proposed before.
Mr. Gladstone : But did agree with the questions and answers.
Col. Hickman : I sought to save the membership in the South. When we left
this discussion at noon, I was on the new Order, which seems to be such a thorn in
the side of some; and here permit me to say, that the R.W.G.L. believed, its mem¬
bership believed, and the South believed, that at that time, under the peculiar circum¬
stances, it was the very best thing that the R.W.G.L. could do, to give the blessings
of temperance to the coloured people. Now, in support of that I may be allowed to
say, that the very action was taken by the Sons of Temperance, and the white
population did leave them; but they said they were going to make up their losses in
larger numbers; and I have abundant testimony of high officers in the Order, to show
their mistake, for they cut off forty thousand, and in eight years' time what have
they now ? But one division of Sons of Temperance in the South, with the field all
open.
Mr. Malins : We have more lodges there now.
Col. Hickman ; And what has been the working of the new Order we authorised?
We have in three years' time initiated over 40,000 among the coloured people with
the pledge of total abstinence.
Mr. Turnbull : I wish to know when the Order of True Reformers was
authorised by the R.W.G.L. ?
Col. Hickman : It authorises the separate Order at
Mr. Turnbull : At Boston its rituals were submitted to the R.W.G.L. for
approval; a motion was submitted for that approval, and, the point I make is, that it
is omitted from the Journals of the Boston session whether that was adopted or not.
The R.W.G.S. has omitted all reference to it from the record.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I was present and the brother was not. He is mistaken
in that.
Mr. Malins : So was I there. I deny that either the name, the ritual or the
■constitution has ever been accepted by the R.W.G.L. There is no record. The
motion to revise and practically endorse the bringing in of these rituals was withdrawn.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Will Bro. Malins undertake to say that R.W.G.T.
Hastings never approved of these rituals.
Mr. Malins : A committee brought in a report against it, and it was shelved in
■some way, but never adopted.
The Chairman : If this point were settled it does not affect the matter.
Mr. Malins : I absolutely deny that the Order was ever recognised.
Mr. Turnbull : Then I ask Colonel Hickman what was done at Boston with
the motion to approve of the ritual of the True Reformers ?
Col. Hickman : Here is the report submitting the action of the R.W.G.T.
Mr. Malins : I ask you to prove from the record that that portion of the report
of Mr. Hastings was approved.
64
SECOND DAY.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : R.W.G.T. Hastings approved of this as R.W.G.T. He
reports it in the Journals, and now they ask us to prove that it was adopted. Is
not for them to prove that the report was rejected by the R.W.G.L.? ("No. )
Then it is for us to prove its adoption. ("Of course.") I say that ritual was
endorsed and adopted on behalf of the R."W. G. L. by R."W.G.T. Hastings, and his
action was never repudiated.
Mr. Malins : And never endorsed, and when these decisions came up I call
attention to the fact that because they were never endorsed, Dr. Oronhyatekha
contended they have never been the law of the R.W.G.L.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : If they had been in the report it would have made a
great difference.
Mr. Prichard : It is a matter of indifference to this conference what the action
of the R.W.G.L. with respect to this Order was. We are here for the purpose of
considering the present laws of the R.W.G.L. and the proposals which will be
submitted by Bro. Hickman. Why introduce, then, this matter?
Mr. Gladstone : I think Mr. Prichard is perfectly right; but if it is to be
maintained that the Order was authorised we must take exception.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I make the assertion again that by all law the ritual was
adopted by the R.W.G.L. through its authorised executive officer, R.W.G.T.
Hastings; and he reported his action, which was never repudiated.
Mr. Gladstone : We want to make nothing of this except as it is urged on the
other side in defence of the action they seek to vindicate and defend.
Col. Hickman: No one denies that the R.W.G.L. authorised that separate
Order.
Mr. Malins : A separate Order.
Col. Hickman : And no one denies that Hastings approved a separate Order,
and that he submitted it in liis annual report at Boston, and no one can assert that
the R.W.G.L. repudiated it.
Mr. Malins : We do assert that the R.W.G.L. did not approve of it.
Mr. Kempster : I do think if we say once for all that whatever Col. Hickman
may say is by no means to be taken for granted because we do not reply to it; it
would be better so that we could get to the conclusion of his address. (Hear, hear.)
It would certainly take six weeks to get through at this rate.
Mr. Gladstone : That being understood and reported, I am willing to stay all
proceedings.
Col. Hickman : I cannot consent to stop before I am through, because I have
only had about twenty minutes out of an hour and twenty. I just wanted to show
you that we acted in conformity with what we considered, and still consider, to be
the law of the R.W.G.L. ; and I had the right to show that, because you come here
and offer to show us, and do show us, that in certain States there are no coloured
Good Templars, and it is right for me to show why there are none. By the establish¬
ment of this Order great good has been accomplished, and both races have been
enabled to work harmoniously together in the temperance cause. On this point per¬
mit me, before leaving it, to say that I have clearly shown the authority we have for
working a separate Order; and from the numbers we have initiated into that Order
I have shown you that we must have worked in concert with the coloured people in
three years' time to have initiated so great a number. I am now brought to the
position that the officers of the R.W.G.L. have not been faithful in some of their
duties. It is said that the negroes have been kept out with their connivance. I
submit that it is an unfair assertion that I acted in bad faith in the course I pursued
in giving my labours to the coloured people on behalf of the new Order when it was
their direction and invitation that a separate Order should be formed for them, and
which Order they accepted. I may say that I have never bad but one application
for a coloured lodge charter, that I remember, since I was R.W.G.T. I will tell
you where that was directly. It was a short time after I went into office. Being
from the South I thought it would be best for me not to make any ruling on it at
all; and I sent the whole matter to Bro. Chase, P.R.W.G.T., and asked him to tell
SECOND DAY.
65
me what to do with it. He clearly showed me, by the constitution, that no lodge
could be instituted inside a certain district without the consent of the existing Grand
Lodges, and that I had no right to grant the charter. That was in Florida; that was Bro.
Antrell, and he accepted afterwards the Order of True Reformers, and I have several
very kindly letters from the brother, who speaks of the great good accomplished by
the Order of True Reformers among his people. In addition the brother says that
if it had not been for the Order of True Reformers—or a separate Order—they could
not have been in an Order now. Now I beg to call attention to the fact that in
Philadelphia, with 50,000 coloured people, where the doors of the Order have always
been open, there is not—unless it is very recently—a single lodge of Good Templars
among the coloured people. There were two or three there, but they died out. The
doors have always been open to them there, but they have not caught the Order, for
they have their own Temperance Orders for themselves. Then in Indiana, if there
is but one coloured lodge of Good Templars in Indiana I have no knowledge of it,
and yet the doors have always been open to them.
Mr. Malins : There are others.
Col. Hickman : Not many. I have shown very clearly that we have been con¬
sistent in what we have done, that the R. W. G. L. and that we all believed it was the best
way to get the pledge of total abstinence taken by the greatest number of whites and
blacks, and it is of more benefit and more importance to get that pledge taken than to
establish the equality of man. The brethren have tried to bring up inconsistencies during
my connection with the Order of Good Templars. That is easily explained from the fact
that I have repeatedly said that I was not trained as you were, and these laws were at
first obnoxious to me from my education; and, therefore, if I have come out year after
year and gone contrary to expressions I might have made in years past, I cannot
certainly well be criticised or told that I disown my professions because of my past.
Then with regard to that lodge at Jacksonville, Florida; I have seen that before in
a printed document. That lodge was not organised under my administration. The
charter was granted after the Madison session had agreed to a separate Order by our
honourable Bro. Hastings; and after I had been in my office some months, the fact
came to my knowledge that there was a coloured lodge there. That was the first I
knew of it, and when in communication with Bro. Hastings on the subject, I received
a large number of pages from him, from which I learned that there was doubt as
regards its legal institution, as it had been instituted by a man who was not a legal
member of the Order; a brother, however, who was a District Deputy, undertook to
reconstruct it. Now all this required a considerable length of time, and I was informed
by Bro. Hastings that his instructions were that this charter granted to the coloured
people during the preparation of the ritual for the separate Order, was to go into the
separate Order for the coloured people when introduced. Well, the Grand Lodge of
Florida was organised in May this year. When I was at Jacksonville I asked to see
the brother who wrote that letter that has been printed and circulated. The
brother did not come to the appointment but wrote to me, and I hope he will produce
my letter, in which I said that if they had a legal existence, and it was right they
ghould have the password, they should have it, and I would see that the laws were
fully carried out. I understood from Bro. Malins, that Williams withheld the password.
I do not believe for one moment, for I do not believe he would do it. In fact, they
did not get the password direct from Bro. Williams. It was to go through the District
Deputy in Florida, and if anyone withheld it, it was the District Deputy, and not
Bro. Williams.
Mr, Malins : He says the letter came from Mr. Williams.
Col. Hickman: Produce the letter. The password is given out through the
District Deputies, and does not come direct from the R.W.G,S. However, after the
organisation of the Grand Lodge in May, when the Executive Committee met we had
a letter from Bro, Lee before us, and the Executive Committee instructed me to write
to the G.W.C.T. of Florida, and ascertain if the Grand Lodge would not take that
lodge under its wing and give it the password.
Mr. Malins : The password ?
Col. Hickman: The password of the R.W.G.L. We know no other pass¬
word in the I.O.G.T. I did not write that letter as soon as I might have written
F
66
SECOND DAY.
it from the fact of my terrible affliction, but as soon as I was able I did write the
letter, and the G.W.C.T., in reply, said they would give it the password, but
that other parties had been in communication with the lodge, and he did not
know whether they would now receive it. I wrote the letter in Louisville, I
think in July, if I am not mistaken. I think that clears up that matter pretty fully.
Now I desire to say, in relation to the coloured matter in North Carolina, I have not
only heard here insinuations or reflections cast upon my official conduct in that con¬
nection, but have seen them in print. I do not propose to introduce it as evidence on
this occasion, but I say that the statements in relation to it are entirely incorrect. I
would, if it were the last words I had to utter in this world, say that when I insti¬
tuted Hickman Lodge, No. I, in Raleigh, North Carolina, with 236 charter members,
I did not know.
Sir. Maliks : And in that pamphlet you hold, I do not say you did know, but
that I thought you should know.
Col. Hickman : That is all right; if I did not know that there were lodges in
existence there I could not summon them. Now what caused these persons to peti¬
tion for a charter ? I will tell you. During the eleven nights I lectured there, there
was considerable excitement created on the subject of temperance. I had instituted
eleven lodges with 700 members, and these parties who had been Good Templars were
aroused upon the subject and concluded to go to work again.
A Voice : Did you initiate any blacks ?
Colonel Hickman: None. (Did you invite them?) When I called my meetings
I did not say white or black. (But were any blacks present ?) I will say, if I re¬
member rightly, there was a coloured man, who played for me on that occasion in the
gallery.
Mr. Gladstone : lie was an officer ! (Laughter.)
Col, Hickman : Now I do not think if there was any wrong inflicted in the
institution of that Grand Lodge that I am justly chargeable with it. Now with
reference to the password and to Bro. Prichard's statement. He says that the fact
had come to his knowledge that there were lodges of Good Templars prior to the
introduction of the Order into North Carolina by me. Nobody disagrees about
that, but I did not know it, and Bro. Prichard did not know it. The fact is
that these lodges, after forfeiting their charters, had rituals given to them, supplies
were received into the State of North Carolina unlawfully from another sdurce, ancl the
brethren refused to tell where they got them. When the North Carolina Grand Lodge
endorsed the proposition for a separate Grand Lodge, I venture the assertion that they
did not know whether the charters of these lodges had been forfeited or not; and so
far as that Grand Lodge was concerned at the session spoken of, there was no necessity
for doing more than they had already done, and therefore, when the proposal came
up to again endorse the petition, it was put on the table. In addition to this, there
were at that time no coloured lodges in legal existence; and no charter, while they were
in that condition, could have been granted to them. In the State of Maryland, where
this law was restricted to (in conjunction with North Carolina), the coloured people
stated that they did not want a charter, neither they nor the whites wanted separation.
They had been educated sufficiently, and that education came about after the London
session; for the South had never been brought to that position until after the action at
London. I have always proclaimed that when any lodge is instituted legally, they were in
existence upon the same footing as other lodges ; there is no difference. But will the
brethren permit me to sayin this connection that surely those in the Order, whether white
or black, are entitled to some respect and consideration more than those who are outside;
and yet their proposition is to "turn out the whites, who will not, or cannot, see the laws
as we see them; turn them out." (Hear, hear.) And all this is to make provision for
the admission of those who are not asking admittance into the Order. I undertake to
say that the two gentlemen who have been referred to are politicians, and I might add
a third, from the city of Richmond, who is at the head of a Democratic club there.
All the parties who have been in communication with you are politicians, and this is
a question on which they can work on the credulity of their people, and thereby gain
political power and influence. I say that the coloured people en masse have never
asked, and are not now asking, for that which is demanded by the brethren. I
SECOND DAY.
venture the assertion that I have more knowledge about the wants of the coloured
people, living as I have done in their midst, than these brethren who live 4,000 miles
from them; and that in my heart there is as tender a place for the coloured people as
in theirs. It has been admitted that we yearn for the salvation of the coloured people,
and these brethren say they admit it to-day, and it has also been admitted here that
they candidly believe that the adoption of the Gladstone amendment at the R.W.G.L.
session would have been the destruction of the white Order at the South.
Mr. Gladstone: No; I do not admit; the whites said it would, but we do not
think it would.
Col. Hickman : I undertake in addition to that to say that the legislation the
brethren took,exception to is in harmony with the laws of the R.W.G.L.; and to
say more than that, that there were sentences in that substitute, brought out to show
the action of the R.W.G.L., that were not in accord with my views, because they
went beyond my education. Now, sir, I desire to say that nobody can consistently
or conclusively show that in our efforts to extend the Order of Good Templars among
the whites, or the Order of True Reformers among the coloured people, we have been
inconsistent in the course which we adopted. If we have been inconsistent, that in¬
consistency has resulted in great good to the coloured people by the pledge we have
given them; and I venture the assertion that, if we are elevated by the pledge of total
abstinence, and are led by it to look beyond mere moral influences to the greater
lights above, it will make but little difference whether our pledge of total abstinence
was taken in the Order of Good Templars or that of True Reformers, so that the
same end was accomplished. Now, we come to the black amendment. If I under¬
stood the brethren, and I speak under correction, they contend that that amendment
was not offered in the interests of the coloured people.
Mr. Malins : It was not offered in London with reference to the coloured ,
people.
Col. Hickman ; Bro. Black offered this at the London, and Bro. Marsh, one of
the committee on the petition, was one of its supporters. This shows the connecting
link. Then this motion is put on the records, and Bro. Marsh signs it.
Mr. Malins: The committee grants them something more,—the password and
the right to go to Grand Lodge.
Col. Hickman : They ask for a separate Grand Lodge. Now, when we get to
the Bloomington session, the British delegates say they protested against the report,
recommending the adoption of this amendment, as ignoring the coloured question
altogether. Now Judge Underwood, in his report as Chairman of the committee,
says, "As a settlement of the questions referred to your committee we recommend
the adoption of the amendment to the constitution, &c."—Judge Black's amendment.
I fully understand the position we took. I advocated its passage; you advocated
, another.
Mr. Turnbull : Which is omitted from the record.
Mr. Gladstone: I ask you to read the memorials reported on by Judge
Underwood.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I correct the statement that it was omitted from the
record. It is on the minutes of the Boston Session.
Mr. Malins: The notice of motion was given at the Boston Session,''and when
we moved it at Bloomington, it is omitted from the minutes.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Bro. Brown's amendment was not considered at Bloom¬
ington at all. Bro. Black's amendment was considered and adopted. The brethren
only declared they wanted the other amendment adopted.
Mi*. Kempster : We say the question was ignored to the extent that it would
not have admitted the coloured people J but it was assumed on tlie other side that it
would settle the question.
Col. Hickman: The British representatives protested against the report as
ignoring the coloured question altogether.
Mr., Kempster : In our sense they ignored it.
68
SECOND DAY.
Col. Hickman : And yet I find here in the Grand Lodge report of EnglancJ,
for 1875, in the report of the representatives to the R.W.G.L. this (Section 9):
" One important motion, looking to the increase of Grand Lodges within the
boundaries of existing Grand Lodges was passed; but its action was afterwards
confined to favouring the prayer of certain coloured negro lodges, who petitioned
for a duplicate Grand Lodge for their race." (Mr. Malins. Afterwards.) If after¬
wards it was confined to the prayer, did it not provide a way of granting the
prayer when it was passed ?
Mr. Malins : No, the result has proved it was futile.
Mr. M'Donald : The alteration was merely ordered to be kept in abeyance.
Dr.' Oronhyatekha : They tell us in the ultimatum that the report ignored the
coloured question altogether, and tell their Grand Lodge it was restricted to granting,
dual Grand Lodges for the coloured people, thereby clearly showing it could not have
ignored the coloured question.
Mr. Malins : The point taken is that we said one thing in the manifesto and -
another thing in my report to Grand Lodge ; that my report to Grand Lodge admits
that after its passing, some relation was made between it and the coloured question,
and the assumption is that that is never mentioned in the manifesto.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I desire to confine the brethren to this point; they
declare in the manifesto that the report totally ignores the coloured question, and yet
they tell us in their report to the Grand Lodge of England that one important question,
&c., was passed, but its action was afterwards confined to favouring the prayer of
certain coloured negro lodges who petitioned for a duplicate Grand Lodge for their
race.
Mr. Malins : And we favoured them getting it.
Dr. Oronyatekha : Therefore, according to this testimony, that report did not
ignore the negro question because it made provision for them, but was afterwards
restricted to two jurisdictions because these two brethren had resigned their offices,
and we wanted to get them back, and we could not get them back until we
Mr. Malins : It is true we required them to restrict the law to these States
because we objected to the duplication of white Grand Lodges.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then, as I understand you to say that you did not resign
your offices because the report ignored the coloured question.
Mr. Malins : You may understand that, but it is not what I said. Col. Hick¬
man has read from the declaration in the manifesto stating that this amendment, when
passed, ignored the coloured question; and contrasts that with my report, which
states that after its passing, a something was done which brought it into relation with
the coloured question, the point being that there is a clashing between the two
statements, and he has read from the manifesto, but has omitted one part, which
reads : "These resignations resulted in bringing the R.W.G.L. face to face with the
great issues referred, and the brethren were only induced to resume on granting
coloured charters to the negroes of North Carolina and Maryland."
Col. Hickman : Now I undertake to say that during the discussion of this
subject before the R.W.G.L., when the amendment was passed, Representative Ball,
from South Carolina, who was an advocate of the coloured petition, clearly stated the
position of the coloured question before this was put and before the brethren resigned
their offices.
Mr. Gladstone : I think the Colonel is right, and I at once recognise that in
virtue of the amendment carried at Bloomington the Grand Lodge in question could
have been instituted, but I want to say at once, that notwithstanding that, it entirely
ignored the real difficulty, as they could not get the coloured lodges instituted unless
the existing white Grand Lodge consented.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Will Mr. Gladstone admit now, that he advocated the
passage of Bro. Brown's amendment, as against Bro. Black's ?
Mr. Gladstone : I advocated distinctly the insertion of two words from Bro.
Brown's amendment. Those two words were, "or race."
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I will submit the two amendments. I understand that
SECOND DAY.
6 9
Mr. Gladstone has been reported as saying that he advocated the other, as in that no
consent was required, while in Judge Black's amendment consent was required.
Mr. Gladstone : No, I think not.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Here are the two amendments, the one advocated by the
brethren, and the one that was passed. This is Bro. Brown's amendment: " Except
after the assent obtained, or upon the petition of any Grand Lodge, charters for one
or more Grand Lodges may be granted when difference of language or race is found
to be an insuperable barrier to the transaction of business;" and Bro. Judge Black's:
" Except after the assent obtained, or upon petition of any Grand Lodge, charters for
one or more Grand Lodges, or for one or more subordinate lodges, under the imme¬
diate jurisdiction of the R.W.G.L., may be granted, covering a part or a whole of the
territory embraced by the charter of such existing Grand Lodge." It will be seen
that there is additional power in Judge Black's amendment, which is not in Bro.
Brown's amendment, for the organisation of subordinate lodges. The one amend¬
ment restricted the granting of Grand Lodge charters to two causes, while the Black
amendment made it general, leaving it to Grand Lodges to determine when and
for what cause the division of a Grand Lodge may take place.
Mr. Malins : Quite true; and we objected to legislation that would permit of
white lodges already existing multiplying themselves, and admit that a veto power
was in the existing Grand Lodges in the motion of Bro. Brown. In other words,
if passed, it would not have given relief unless the existing white Grand Lodge chose
to give its consent; and it is because we have since learned that it would be vain to
expect this that we brought in a different motion, and one that would not leave a veto
power in the hands of the Grand Lodge. Experience has proved that the motion put
upon the Journal by Bro. Brown, and written by myself, would not be adequate.
"We would not now permit existing white Grand Lodges to have a veto power.
Mr. M 'Donald : Are you prepared to apply the principle throughout the world ?
Mr. .Malins : No,
A Voice : Put that down.
Mr. Malins : Put it down by all means. Our aim is not to permit an indis¬
criminate multiplication of white Grand Lodges, but where coloured people are
excluded by an existing Grand Lodge, to give them a chance to join the Order.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then you would not permit the Grand Lodge of England
to divide, even if three-fourths of the members said they wanted to do so.
Mr. Malins : I do not admit that.
Mr. Stockbridge : So far it is a selfish policy, up to one part.
The Chairman : I think that is hardly in order.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Let us be gentlemanly, at any rate.
Mr. Malins : I admire the doctor, who is going to be gentlemanly, no matter
what comes from this side.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I never said that.
Col. Hickman : I do hope you will now let me have another minute. I under¬
stand that the resignations of our brothers at the Bloomington session were not on
account of the amendment of Judge Black not placing it in the power of a Grand
Lodge to grant a dual Grand Lodge for the benefit of the coloured people, but because
it gave power for the multiplication of Grand Lodges.
Mr. Malins : Our motion was in favour of dual Grand Lodges; it was defeated,
and a motion, which would have enabled an indefinite number of white Grand
Lodges to be established, was carried, thereby probably increasing the voting power
of the American brethren without aiming at giving any relief to the negroes.
Col. Hickman : If it gave voting power to the Americans, the British Grand
Lodges could have divided. Would it not also have given voting power to the
British Grand Lodges ?
Mr. Malins : The Grand Lodge of England had resolved it would not divide,
and I voted accordingly.
SECOND DAY.
Col. Hickman : Could we not have increased our voting power under the
amendment proposed by yourself?
Mr. Malins : If you gave us thirty or forty votes, we could not afford to send
thirty or forty representatives.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Could they not have increased their voting power under
the amendment proposed by Bro. Malins ?
Mr. Malins: Yes; the voting power would have been increased just propor¬
tionate to the number of coloured lodges organised, but that would not have
hampered us, for on this coloured 'question our sympathies are in accord with the
desires of the negro, which is not so on the American side.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It has been stated that it was because they did not wish
to increase the American power in the R. W.G.L.; but, under the amendment offered by
the gentlemen themselves, we could have had duplicate Grand Lodges in every Grand
Lodge jurisdiction on the American continent. So if that had simply been our desire,
we could have accepted their amendment, and organised coloured lodges, whom we
could have controlled.
Mr. Gladstone : Will the Doctor please read the amendment which we
supported at Bloomington ?
Mr. Malins : I do not say we objected to the multiplication of American
Grand Lodges, broadly speaking, coloured or white; but we would have yielded the
point for the benefit of the coloured people. But we objected to it for multiplying
the white.
Mr. Gladstone : I again ask the Doctor to read the Bloomington amendment
from the record. I press this. It is fair enough, he is telling us about our amend¬
ment, and I ask him to read it from the record.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The brother has misunderstood me entirely. I say they
supported the motion proposed by Bro. Brown, as against that of Judge Black. I
further state that it did not formally come before the body, because the amendment ot
Judge Black was carried originally.
Mr. Gladstone : Then it never came up ? I say, there was an amendment.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Was it Brown's amendment?
Mr. Gladstone : It was part of it, and I ask for that amendment to be showed
on the record. I ask for any scrap of evidence that there was a particular amend¬
ment, or any discussion. Now I press that point.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I appeal to you, sir, if I have not said that Bro. Brown's
amendment was on the notice paper for the Bloomington session, put on at Boston
the year before. I say it was on the notice paper for the Bloomington session—that
this notice of motion offered by Bro. Brown and written by Bro. Malins was on the
notice paper for action; so also was the notice by Bro. Black. The amendment of
Bro. Black is on the record, and it was while discussing that they supported the
other amendment.
Mr. Gladstone : Prove it from the record.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : You are welcome to the record.
Mr. Gladstone : Because it is not on the record.
Mr. Malins : The resolution was proposed and fought, and our amendment is
not on the record, so that no one could know we were fighting the coloured question
before we resigned.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It will of course be found on the notice paper twelve
months before.
Mr. Malins : But we want here the Journal, where it was fought.
Mr. Gladstone : I ask you to produce from the record the protest presented
by the British brethren at Bloomington.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Was not a motion passed that nothing relating to the
unfortunate family quarrel which led to their resignations should appear on the Journal?'
"Was such a resolution passed ?
SECOND DAY.
71
Mr. Gladstone : I think it was.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And yet they now come here and demand from me a
record of that protest, when it was ordered that nothing of the kind should appear on
the Journals.
Mr. Gladstone : I at once acknowledge my error in asking for the protest. I
did not remember that it was not to be inserted, inasmuch as afterwards the thing was
tied up, but none the less it was never settled that the amendment was to be left out.
The action that did take place about resigning, or being requested to resume, was to
be deleted, but in deleting that everything else has been deleted.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Is it not the law that amendments should be given notice
of one year, and if so we wilL find their amendment in the records of the Boston
Session. I say again it was not formally brought forward by the brethren, but they did
say they would prefer that we should adopt it.
_Mr. Prichard : In the discussion on the ultimatum at the Grand Lodge
session of England, at Newcastle, a certain amendment was offered and all record of
that has been omitted from the published proceedings of the Grand Lodge of England.
Mr. Malins : The Grand Lodge Executive were authorised to condense the
Journal.
Mr. Prichard : Amendments of a most insignificant character are published ;
and I think one of this importance should not have been left out.
Mr. Malins agreed that it ought to have been published.
The Chairman : I must ask that there be no further interruption of Col.
Hickman.
Col. Hickman : There has been about two hours' discussion, and I have had
twenty odd minutes of it. After our brethren resigned their offices we were restricted
to granting charters for two States if they were applied for, and our brethren then re¬
sumed their positions in the R.W.G.L., and almost immediately—because we ad¬
journed directly afterwards—it will be seen from page 98 of the Journal, without saying
one single word about the amendment ignoring the coloured question, they gave this notice
of motion : " We give notice to rescind the alteration made at this session referring to
the multiplication of Grand Lodges." They do not say in that notice .one word re¬
ferring to the coloured question. I was drawing attention to the words in the ulti¬
matum, and in connection with them the report of the British representatives presented
at the Grand Lodge session in 1875, in which they use the words, " one important
motion looking to the increase of Grand Lodges within the boundaries of existing
Grand Lodges was passed, but its action was afterwards confined to favouring the
prayer of certain coloured negro lodges, who petitioned for a duplicate Grand Lodge
for their race." Therefore, I say that the position taken in the ultimatum, according
to my opinion, does not concur with this, because that said the motion entirely ignored
the coloured question. If so it could not be restricted to the coloured question if by
its passage it did not provide a way for granting the prayer of the coloured people.
Then in addition this report closes by saying : " We rejoice to record the fact that,
as before, the Indian and the negro races were represented in the R. W. G. L., the latter
in the person of a brother from Nova Scotia." I had an object in this, it was to con¬
nect the actions of our brethren; but however they may differ from me in this regard,
my firm convictions were that they supported the Brown amendment, becausfe by the
passage of that amendment the same benefit to the coloured people would be granted,
but at the same time it would defeat the multiplication of Grand Lodges. Now we
are told that since that time they have found that the amendment did entirely ignore
the coloured question; that it did not provide a way for the relief of the negroes
because there was nothing done under it. We have told you the reason why it was
not done in Maryland, and our brother tells us that in North Carolina if it had been
a general law, it would have had a different effect. The brethren will see that it would
have brought down upon the Order in North Carolina from the rival Order what would
very materially have injured the existing Order of Good Templars, so if there has been
injury under this law the restriction was the cause, and the responsibility rests on
others rather than on those who have had charge of this matter. In regard to the
point attempted to be made in reference to the password, I would say it is a common
72
SECOND DAY.
occurrence to send the password to deputies of lodges that are in arrears. That has
been the case in this Grand Lodge jurisdiction. Bro. Mason said so in this hall.
It has been the case in Kentucky often, I know. The fact that the password circular
has been sent out does not show one single proof that the lodge was in good standing
at the time it was sent out. Now, in regard to the action of the Grand Lodge of
North Carolina at its last session, the whole matter pertaining to this question was
placed in the hands of the Executive Committee, to act so that the Grand Lodge did
not ignore this question, because it gave its power to its Executive Committee to act
on the question. That Executive Committee desired a conference, and to act in
concert with others, and I am prepared that that Executive Committee has acted.
The matter in reference to North Carolina is thus shown clearly. Now at the time
of the institution of the Grand Lodge, there were no coloured lodges in legal existence.
Mr. Malins says that, probably, there was not a second one, but I undertake to say
there was not one; but even apart from that, the charter could not be granted to those
not in legal existence, but the Grand Lodge of North Carolina is resolved to place
itself right on the record, and to show that it has been guilty of no inconsistency.
In reference to Kentucky, the letter of Bro. Needham speaks for itself, and I believe
the British brethren have confidence in the statements of Tim Needham, for they
showed that by presenting him with a gold-headed cane before they left America.
It would seem that Kentucky, realising the recent action under the substitute, is about
to regulate her laws in conformity thereto. Now I believe the brethren desire that
the Order of Good Templars, with all its blessings, shall be given to the greatest
number; if that is not their position I am mistaken in my idea of the objects they
have in view in the prosecution of this cause. Now if they find people are not in a
position to receive these blessings, I ask is it right to accuse persons who have had
these powers given them, of inconsistency, and to say that they are morally not sound,
and that by acting with them they might become contaminated. And I desire to say
further that we do not understand that our British brethren, in what they propose in
the amendment offered by Bro. Gladstone, desire to force into the social circle of the
South those who may be objectionable to them. Now I will not detain you long, but
I wish to say, that if after the Bloomington session, the amendment—or I will go
farther back still and say, if at the Madison session the legislation with regard to the
separate Order was thought to be detrimental, then it was the duty of those not in
favour of it to have called attention to it year after year, at the next session at London,
at Boston, and then at Bloomington, and yet there has been no charge brought up in
any legal manner. It was the proper course to have preferred a charge in a legal
manner, but that course was not adopted; and I undertake to say here, that it does seem
that the position taken by the brethren has been rather in the line of vindicating
the course they pursued at Bloomington. If these wrongs existed we believe it
was the duty of the brethren to stay in their seats, and aid in correcting the wrong,
but the first time you took any definite action you came to us with this amendment,
and demanded its passage, and when you presented it and it was not adopted, then
you, a minority, say you have lost it on account of the manner in which your Grand
Lodges are represented. Now in the senate of the United States there are two
senators from New York State, with a population of four millions, and there are two
from Delaware and Maryland, with a very much smaller population; so if your Grand
Lodges go out of our Order you must remember you have never tried in any legal way
to show us we have not carried out the law ; and I thought while Bro. Malins and
myself were closely connected in working for the Order, if he had said one word about the
failure to carry out the laws, he would have said that word to me. I was grieved to know
that confidence could not be placed in me because I lived in a different section of the
community, because the brethren will recollect that after the action at the Bloomington
session I made a speech in which I deplored your action, because I regarded your labour
with me as of vital importance to the cause. Now in the two reports Bro. Malins as
counsellor made to the R.W.G.L., in giving an account of the work done by himself
and his deputies, not one time did he complain that there was a violation of the laws
of the Order. The first intimation we had of this matter—although I never received
it—was that manifesto. I was perfectly astonished when I saw it. It almost missed
me. I knew if there was any question in the world to open the wounds between the
sections of my country, it was this coloured question. I knew what had occurred in the
R.W.G.L. on the question. The first session of that body I ever attended was at
SECOND DAY.
73
Oswego, when Judge Black had a notice on the paper to provide for the institution of
coloured lodges. I went then and had the page turned down, and I read and re-read
it until the page was black, in order that I might combat that resolution. I did
defeat it, not by making a speech, for if I had done so there would never have been
one vote on my side. Now Judge Black has' been the friend of the coloured race in
the R.W.G.L., and I do not think it is fair to him or to others of my Northern
brethren who have risked their lives—there were thousands and thousands of aboli¬
tionists who entered the war for no other purpose than to destroy slavery, and I do
not think it is fair to say they have broken faith, or to accuse them of insincerity in
this matter when they have braved the storms of battle, to break faith with them, and
say you have no confidence that they will do what is right in behalf of the coloured race
in the South. These are painful thoughts to me. I ask you if we are insincere in our
motives? What have we to keep us together in this great international family other than
the simple love we bear to this Order, and to the great principles it represents? Did we
join the other Order I have referred to there are enough Southern Grand Lodges to
give us an Order half as large as the one we belong to now; but we believe the
I.O.G.T. is the best Order that ever unfurled its silken banner to the breezes of
heaven. I tell you we want peace. I have not stood upon your shores for any other
purpose than to re-unite this Order that has been broken. I desire also to extend,
stronger and with more love, the cord of fraternal affection that no.w binds our
hearts as Templars together, that we may go on in the providence of God to redeem
the world from drunkenness. These are the motives that have prompted me to
come to your shores. Whether you consider them as honest or not I know not. I
know what I have in my heart. I know all these long months, when I lay prostrate,
there was no one who more heartily regretted that our two flags were to be taken
down, and one of them folded and taken back over the waters of the great deep,
than I was. If there have been inconsistencies, which I do not admit because we
think we have been in conformity with the laws of the R.W.G.L, ; but if these
differences have existed, let us throw the mantle of charity over the past, and in a
way honourable to all let us come together once more and work for the Order we
all love so much. I am now very nearly ready to submit to you what has been called
for so often, and which I have not withheld from any unworthy motives. This is not
on behalf of the R.W.G.L. We, as a deputation from the R.W.G.L., have shown
you the laws which are to be maintained in all of its jurisdictions. What I propose
to adduce to you is the deliverance of those who are -worthy of your love and con¬
fidence, and however they may have differed from you in the past or may now on the
question of equality, desire now to place themselves as far as posssible in harmony with
you, in carrying out the principles of this great international Order; but let me say
that brethren have intimated that as well as such a deliverance, securities are required
in order to give them confidence that the measures will be carried out. We are not
asking any securities from you. We are not making any concessions. You may call,
if you will, what I am about to read, concessions, but they may only be considered
concessions in so far as they are a change in the way of operating in the Southern
States which we deemed best for both races. Then, I say, when we come in good
faith, is it right and proper to ask us to give guarantees in the absence of meetings of
our Grand Lodges, when it has been demonstrated that every Grand Lodge in the
South that has met has endorsed what has been done? We only say that if
these proposals are acceptable, if you have any confidence in us as brethren—and we are
told in our Degree of Charity, and in the teachings of our Order, that we must not
wrong or even suspect one another. We come to you in sincerity and love, praying
God's blessing on you and ourselves, and asking that we may come to such honourable
solutions of these difficulties that again our banners united may be unfurled to the breezes
of heaven. With these remarks, I submit you what I hold in my hand, what I think
you can accept with honour to yourselves and in justice to all races of people that
inhabit the earth. The following are our proposals :—
"Office of J. J. Hickman, Right Worthy Grand Templar,
"I.O.G.T,, Atlanta, Ga., Sept. 21st, 1876.
"At a conference of Past and Present Grand Lodge Officers, and R.W.G.L.
Representatives from the Southern States, convened at the instance of Col. J. J.
74 SECOND DAY.
Hickman, R.W.G.T., and J. G. Thrower, G.W.C.T., of Georgia, for the purpose of
consulting' together and agreeing upon a basis of settlement, to be used by the
R.W.G.T. on his proposed visit to Great Britain, and to aid him in the work of
re-uniting the Order—a thing the South most ardently wishes to see accomplished,—
after a full and free statement of all the difficulties in the way, it was finally agreed
unanimously to adopt the following declaration :—We declare—I. Our unalterable
allegiance to the R.W.G.L. as organised in 1855, and now administered by Col. J. J.
Hickman and his associates. 2. That we desire first and above everything else (in
this connection) the welfare and spread of the Temperance cause, holding it to be
higher than any mere society or order, no matter how correct or praiseworthy the
original principles of such order or society may be; but—3. We declare our conviction
that the cause can best and can only be propagated and upheld by united, determined,
and concerted action on the part of all of its friends; and—4. That this species of
action can best and can only be secured by means of organised society efforts ; and
5. We declare our honest conviction that the I.O.G.T. is above all others the most
complete, comprehensive, and satisfactory organisation of the kind known to us, and,
we believe, known to the world, and for this reason we are resolved to continue to
link our future and its, and suffer no trivial or unworthy obstacles or difficulties to
alienate us either in our efforts or our affections; and, whereas, next to the success of
the cause, we desire the success of the Order, and this is greatly hindered and crippled
by any divisions in our ranks, which brings us to say that we deeply deplore the action
of the British and other representatives, in withdrawing from the R. W.G.L., at its
recent session at Louisville; and, whereas, we claim and accord honesty and sincerity
of purpose; we take them at their words, and praying God's blessing on them and on us,
we are Resolved—1. Notwithstanding we have acted in good faith in carrying out the
work of the separate Order, authorised by the R.W.G.L., at the Madison session, for
the benefit of the coloured people, and in conformity with promises made by some of
our representatives during the last session of the R.W.G.L., prior and subsequent to
the aforesaid withdrawal of our British brethren, we hereby agree to surrender to the
aforesaid R.W.G.L. the entire and original control of the territory embraced in our
several Grand Lodge jurisdictions, in so far as the negro race is concerned ; and for
ourselves personally, and for those we represent, we consent that the R.W.G.L. may
at once enter upon and occupy any part or all of the said territory by granting charters,
both subordinate and grand, to as many lodges composed entirely of coloured people
as it may find possible and deem expedient; and, furthermore, we are Resolved—2.
To cordially co-operate with the said R.W.G.L. in all possible efforts in this behalf,
and to aid it in all practicable ways (as far as may be in our power); and be it
Resolved—3. That having as above surrendered to the R.W.G.L. the negro race
which we have been working with such benefit to them and the cause of Temperance
in the separate order authorised by the R.W.G.L., and which we believed when
formed was best suited to their'wants, we earnestly trust that the R.W.G.L. will
exercise great care and wisdom in prosecuting the work among the coloured people,
that great blessing may result to them without injury to the existing Grand Lodges.—
Moses L. Whitten, G.W.C.T., Alabama, chairman; W. H. Cuttins, G.W.C.T.,
South Carolina, secretary; Geo. W. Bain, G.W.C.T., Kentucky; Tim Needham,
G.W.S., ditto; Henry M. Mood, R.W.G.Ch., South Carolina; Lee Bullock,
G.W.C.T., Tennessee; C. T. Kelly, G.W.C., ditto; N.J. Gibson, G.W.S., ditto;,
J. O. Patton, P.G.W.C.T., Alabama; J. G. Thrower, G.W.C.T., Georgia; F. L.
Lawson, G.W.C., ditto; S. C. Robinson, G.W.S., ditto; W. E.Jones, G.W.C.,,
SECOND DAY.
ditto; W. D. Jacoway, G.W.C.T;, Arkansas; T. M. Gibson, G.W.S., ditto; Mrs.
C. F. Bales, G.W.V.T., ditto; J. W. Russell, G.W.C., ditto; W. L. Morris, G.W.M.'
ditto; Theo. N.Ramsay, G.W.C.T., North Carolina; N. B. Broughton, P.G.W.C.T.,
ditto; Saml. J. Fall, G.W.S., ditto: VirgilBullard, G.W.T., ditto; B. H. Webster,
G.W.C.T., Florida; W. M. M'Intosh, G.W.C., ditto; Thomas Scales, G.W.S., ditto;
W. J. Points, G.W.C.T., Virginia; Geo. H. Hawxhurst, G.W.S., ditto; Grand
Lodge of West Virginia ; A. W. Monroe, G.W.C.T., Maryland; Thos. De Ford,
G.W.S., ditto; P. P. Ellis, G.W.C.T., Missouri; R. R. Scott, G.W.S., ditto;
Thos. N. Berry, G.W.S., South Carolina."
Col. Hickman : These are offered in all sincerity, and affectionately. We are
playing no game. We offer them in love. The matter is with you.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : May I ask an interval of ten minutes ?
Mr. Morgan : Let us adjourn for tea.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : There is something else we want.
Mr. Malins : Let me press that all that is to be submitted may be submitted
before we retire.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then I hope you will give us ten minutes, as we wish to
confer.
Mr. MALINS: Certainly.
The conference then adjourned for ten minutes.
On resuming,
Dr. Oronhyatekha read the following document:—
"Whereas the deputation from the R.W.G. Lodge, Bros. Col. Hickman
and Dr. Oronhyatekha, and the brethren associated with them, have offered as
a basis of negotiation, with the view to reunion, the 'substitute' of Dr. Oronhyatekha
adopted by the R.W.G. Lodge at its session held in Louisville, Ky., May,
1876 ; and—Whereas the said Bros. Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha, with
the brethren associated with them, did offer to strike out the last sentence of the
resolution in the said 'substitute,' and which sentence reads as follows, viz., ' At
the same time this R.W.G. Lodge recognises the undoubted right of each Grand
Lodge to determine to whom it shall grant charters for subordinate lodges; and—
Whereas, it was declared by Brs. Gladstone and Malins, and the brethren associated
with them, that the substitute with or without the said last sentence in the resolution
of the said 'substitute' was not adequate or satisfactory to them; and—Whereas it
was declared by Bros. Gladstone and Malins, and the brethren associated with them,
that they 'had no proposals to make,' and that nothing would be acceptable to them,
except the amendment offered by Bro. Gladstone at the Louisville Session of the
R.W.G. Lodge, May, 1876, or its equivalent; and—Whereas the only differences-
between the said amendment of Bro. Gladstone and the law of the R.W.G.L., as
embodied in Judge Black's amendment to the R.W.G. Lodge constitution, adopted by
the R.W.G. Lodge at the Bloomington session, is in the following particulars, viz. —
I. That the law of the R.W.G. Lodge requires the consent of existing Grand
Lodges before subordinate or Grand Lodges can be organised in the territory of any
Grand Lodge, while Bro. Gladstone's amendment does not require such consent. 2.
The law of the R.W.G. Lodge is general, delegating to each Grand Lodge the power
to determine in a constitutional manner when and for what cause its jurisdiction should
be divided, while Bro. Gladstone's amendment is special, limiting the causes for division
of Grand Lodges to where difference of language or race precludes united working;
and 3. The law of the R.W.G. Lodge reserves to itself the sole right to organise.
76
SECOND DAY.
Grand and Subordinate Lodges in any jurisdiction, while Bro. Gladstone's amendment
proposed to give not only to the R.W.G. Lodge, but to any Grand Lodge the right
to organise under certain circumstances lodges in the territory of existing Grand
Lodges; and Whereas, in so far as it relates to the admission of the negro race into
•the Order in every part of the R.W.G. Lodge jurisdiction, the only material differ¬
ence between the laws of theR.W.G. Lodge and the amendment of Bro. Gladstone is
that which is contained in No. I of the above recited differences, viz., that consent being
required bythelawoftheR. W. G, Lodge and noconsentbeing required by Bro. Gladstone's
amendment, before entering the territory of an existing Grand Lodge, for the purpose
of organising subordinate and Grand Lodges among the excluded community; and
whereas the consent for the R.W.G. Lodge to come into the respective territories
and organise subordinate and Grand Lodges composed of coloured persons exclu¬
sively, with our own password and rituals, and with co-equal representation in the
R.W.G. Lodge, has been obtained from the Grand Lodges or the executives
and leading officers and members of Kentucky, West Virginia, South Carolina, Ten¬
nessee, Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, and
North Carolina, thereby rendering, in so far as the admission of the negro race into
the Order is concerned in the above-recited Grand Lodge territories, the above-
recited differences between the law of the R.W.G. Lodge—as embodied in the
' Black' amendment and adopted by the R.W.G. Lodge at the Bloomington session
in 1875, an<i the amendment of Bro. Gladstone, proposed at the Louisville session,
1876,—quite immaterial; and whereas Brothers Col. Hickmanand Dr. Oronhyatekha,
and the brethren associated with them, do hereby pledge the R.W.G. Lodge to at
once mission the negroes in all such territories as may be thus thrown open, and as
fast as thrown open, by organising coloured subordinate and Grand Lodges, with
co-equal representation in the R.W.G. Lodge; therefore Resolved,—That this Con¬
ference affirms that there is no cause for further division in the Order of the I.O.G.T."
In submitting this I have just a word to add, and that is, it is not in our power
to delete from the constitution as adopted at Bloomington the words requiring
the consent of Grand Lodges to be given, but I speak now for myself, that if there is
any impediment to the missioning of any of the territory, in consequence of that clause
I purpose at next session of R.W.G.L. to put on the notice paper an amendment
to delete that from the present law. My own belief is that if we receive the advances
of the Southern brethren in the spirit they are given, no deleting of that particular
limitation will be required ; but if objection is taken in consequence of the presence
of that clause, or if there is any impediment to the working of the territory in con¬
sequence of that proviso, I undertake personally to see that a notice of amendment is
placed on the notice paper at the earliest possible date to remedy that. We now
leave the matter in the hands of our brethren on the other side. If they require
an adjournment until to-morrow, or until later in the evening, we are quite agreeable
to it.
Mr. Gladstone asked for an adjournment until 8 30 o'clock, which was
•.granted, and
The Conference adjourned at 5 10 p.m. until 8 30.
Evening Session.
The conference resumed at 10 30 p.m.
Mr. Gladstone : Mr. President, In a word, I have to express to you and the
-other members of the conference our regret at having detained you so long, but the
•delay has been unavoidable. I am honoured to submit this document as being the party
SECOND DAY.
77
•who submitted the now pretty well-known amendment at Louisville session of the
R.W.G.L.:—
" We, the undersigned, representing the R.W.G. Lodge of the World and
the Grand Lodges of Great Britain and Ireland, having had submitted to them by
Colonel Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha, and the brethren associated with them, as
representing the R.W.G, Lodge, and as specially authorised to act on behalf of the
leading officers and members of the Grand Lodges of the Southern States of America,
certain proposals and pledges as a basis of reunion between the said R.W.G. Lodge
and the R.W.G. Lodge of the World, have given to the same their earnest considera¬
tion, and beg to declare as follows : i. That we are deeply impressed with a sense of
the importance of the issues involved in and the delicacy of the present negotiations.
2. That we feel constrained in view of said negotiations to reaffirm our entire and
hearty approbation of the action taken at Louisville by the representatives of the
Grand Lodges of Great Britain and by those who acted with them. 3. That we
receive with gratification the documents signed by the leading officers of the Southern
Grand Lodges, and hereby accept of them, as tendered, in good faith. 4. That
although few of the Southern Grand Lodges have had an opportunity of expressing
their approval of these pledges, yet, from the influential positions held by the signa¬
tories, there is good reason to anticipate that their respective Grand Lodges will ratify
the same at their next sessions. 5. That we desire to express our sincere pleasure that,
in view of the separation that took place at Louisville, the representatives of the South¬
ern Grand Lodges have voluntarily consented to invite the R.W.G. Lodge to mission
the negro race, hitherto excluded, and have pledged their hearty co-operation in the
work, the more especially that neither in the substitute adopted at the Louisville
session, nor in any previous decision of the R.W.G. Lodge, was there any1 provision
to require their consent. 6. That we also receive with pleasure the explicit pledges
given in the name of the R.W.G. Lodge that the R.W.G. Lodge shall at once mission
the negroes in all such territories as may be thus thrown open by organising subordi¬
nate and Grand Lodges, with co-equal representation in the R.W.G. Lodge, and that
we rely on its prompt fulfilment. 7. That we are of opinion that by the fulfilment of
the pledges above-named the object for which we have been contending, and to secure
which we felt constrained to separate, will be attained in the jurisdictions specified by
the doors of our Order being opened in good faith to the negro race. 8. That the
fulfilment of the explicit pledge given that the R.W.G.L. shall ' mission the negroes
in all such territories as may be thus thrown open, and as fast as thrown open, by
organising coloured subordinate and Grand Lodges, with co-equal representation in
the R.W.G. Lodge,' will obviate the necessity for that part of our amendment pro¬
posed at Louisville empowering Grand Longes to mission the negroes in the jurisdiction
of any Grand Lodge ignoring them or debarring them from membership in the Order.
9. That should any of the Southern Grand Lodges refuse to mission the negroes, or
to consent to the R. W.G.Lodge missioning them, the R.W.G. Lodge must hold them
guilty of violating the well understood fundamental principles of the Order, revoke
the charter of the said Grand Lodges, and so remove the barrier to the R.W.G.
Lodge missioning the negroes in such jurisdictions. 10. That on behalf of the Execu¬
tive of the R.W.G. Lodge of the World we agree to communicate at once this basis
of reunion to the several Grand Lodges connected with that provisional body, and
recommend them in the event of the pledges being properly ratified to empower their
representatives at its next session to consummate the reunion on the said basis.
78
SECOND DAY.
II. That in the event of the foregoing being satisfactory to Col. Hickman and Dr.
Oronhyatekha, and the brethren associated with them, as the representatives of the
R.W.G. Lodge, and the Southern Grand Lodges, we, on behalf of the Executive of
-the R.W.G. Lodge of the World, specify the following as the essential conditions to
be observed from this time until the next annual sessions of the two supreme bodies :
(a.) That no effort whatsoever be made on either side to disturb the relations of exist¬
ing subordinate lodges to the Grand Lodges within whose jurisdiction they are located,
(b.) That there shall be no further invasion by either supreme body of the territory
occupied by any Grand Lodge acknowledging the authority of the other supreme
body. Respectfully submitted in F., H., and C.—Joseph Malins, R.W.G.S. of
the R.W.G.L. of the World, and G.W.C.T. of England; George Gladstone,
G.W.C.T. of Scotland; Morris Morgan, G.W.C.T. of Wales (Welsh); W. L.
Daniel, G.W.C.T. of the English G.L. of Wales; John Pyper, P.G.W.C.T. of
Ireland; John Kempster, G.W.C. of England; Wm. W. Turnbull, G.W.S. of
Scotland, and Secretary to the United Executives of Great Britain and Ireland."
I present this as our finding, in view of the proposals that have been submitted
to us. It is our finding after very careful consideration, and we submit it in the
-anticipation that it will be satisfactory to those with whom we have been conferring,
and that in the future of the I.O.G.T. there may be greater success than there has
been in the past, and that the separation that has taken place and all that has resulted
from it shall be overruled for good.
After a few minutes conversation together on the part of the representatives of
the R.W.G.L.,
Col. Hickman said : Owing to the lateness of the hour, and the importance of
the document presented to us in answer to the basis offered by myself and colleagues
for reunion, we do not feel that we can give it that due consideration to-night that it
•deserves, and I must ask that we have the time to answer it that its importance
demands. It was expected that our brethren would be back by half after eight or
nine o'clock at least. It is now eleven, and you, sir, are compelled, you say, to go
at twelve. It would not be expected of us at eleven o'clock at night—after the other
side have been five or six hours in preparing that document—to consider it in a few
moments. I do not see how we can do otherwise than to ask time till to-morrow.
The Chairman : I do not know whether it would be asking too much, if I asked
whether it is the opinion of the brethren that with time to1 carefully prepare a reply,
that reply would be such as would be likely to bring about that reunion we all desire ?
I should be more content as I go home if I knew whether reunion was likely to take
place.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Our object is, if possible, to reunite the Order, and in
asking for the adjournment we wish to see if there is any possible way, in view of the
proposals submitted by us and this document presented by the brethren, to reach that
desired end. We want time to consider that important document carefully. For
myself I have been working incessantly for the last three weeks. Yesterday I scarcely
had time for dinner. I had to go and attend two public meetings, returned home at
twelve o'clock, and, after a slight lunch, I had to prepare that document which I
submitted, getting to bed at something like three o'clock this morning; and I feel
we ought not to sit up to-night to consider this, apart from its important character;
and in addition to this I know that Col. Hickman is really running a great risk in the
tension he is putting upon himself, and for him as well as for myself I think we must
be allowed to sleep over this, and to see whether there is no way to reach the desired
end, the reunion of the order.
The Chairman : I can quite understand and sympathise with your feelings of
desire to do the thing with that deliberation its importance demands; I am sorry I
cannot stay with you, but I feel obliged to go home to-night, I cannot escape it. I
■do not like to express any opinion, but I will say this, that I shall go home with the
SECOND DAY.
79
strongest belief that we have arrived at such a stage that there appears to be a hundred
chances to one that we shall reunite.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I must add my very great regret that under the circum¬
stances in which you are placed, you are unable to be with us to-morrow. My only
surprise is that you have stayed so long. I am sure I but express the sentiments of
every member of this conference when I say that we are deeply obliged to you for
having consented to preside on this occasion; and not only for that, but for the earnest
desire you have shown by your- words and acts in the chair to bring about what we
all so much desire, the reunion of the Order. Personally I feel the deepest thanks
to you for having presided at this conference, and for the manner in which you have
presided.
Col. Hickman : I should feel that I would be doing injustice to my own feelings
if I did not express my gratitude for the impartial manner in which you have presided
over this conference; and wherever I go, in thinking of the trials and tribulations
through which we have had to pass, my thoughts of you will be of the kindest, and
my gratitude will ever continue for the great kindness you have shown us by your
conduct in the chair of this conference. I thank you heartily, and very much regret
that domestic matters require your attendance at home.
Mr. Morgan : I move, "That the heartiest thanks of this conference be pre¬
sented to Mr. Hoyle for his impartial conduct as the Chairman of this conference."
I have known Mr. Hoyle for a number of years as a hard, an intelligent, and an
earnest worker in the temperance cause in all its aspects, and I was pleased to find
that he had accepted the position as president of this conference; and I feel, I am
sure, that I am expressing the feelings of my brethren on this side of the table when
I say that he has conducted the business of this conference in the most pleasing
manner possible. ("Hear, hear.")
Mr. J. Harding seconded the motion, which was put by Mr. Malins, and
carried unanimously.
The Chairman : My dear brethren, I have had many marks of respect shown
to me in my temperance history, but I do not know if ever I had any before that I
shall look back to with more pleasure in after life than the invitation from both sides
to accept the chairmanship on this occasion. It showed your confidence in me ; and
I have felt a sense of responsibility and also of humility whilst I have filled the position
that I cannot express. My anxiety has been to strive so to conduct the proceedings
that there should be the fullest possible opportunities on all hands for a free expression
of opinion, and that it should be done with a view to that harmonious settlement of
the question that we had come together so longingly desirous of. And I do feel at the
point we have attained that I am able to go home to-night and congratulate myself
that I can see scarcely any difference upon which there can possibly be any further
disunion. That is the view I take, and you will pardon me in the jubilance of my
feeling giving vent to that feeling before I separate from you. I do trust and believe that
what has seemed to be a dark and mischievous event in our Order will be overruled
for good, and that out of what has taken place there will be greater good accruing to
the Order and to humanity. «A.nd though we may have had feelings sometimes of
pain, yet when we feel that these things will work together for the good of the
temperance cause we must rejoice in the tribulation we have had to endure. (Applause.)
Col. Hickman : In the event it would be possible for us to accept this answer,
what position, as you claim there that "no effort whatsoever be made on either side to
disturb the relations of existing subordinate lodges to the Grand Lodges within whose
jurisdiction they are located; and that there shall be no further invasion by either
supreme body of the territory occupied by any Grand Lodge acknowledging the
authority of the other supreme body," will those subordinate Lodges in England
be in that have declared their allegiance to the R.W.G.L. ? What would be their
position between now and the next session of the R.W.G.L: ? That is very material
to us.
Mr. Malins : The position is precisely this, that Col. Hickman, on behalf of his
R.W.G.L., could no longer exercise any official authority, irrespective of the Grand
Lodges which claim to exist under the R.W.G.L. of the World in the interim, and
that the R.W.G.L. of the World cannot form lodges nor accept the allegiance of
So
SECOND DAY.
lodges in the jurisdiction of any Grand Lodge acknowledging the R.W.G.L. over
which Col. Hickman presides. In other words it is "Hands off" on both sides in
the interim.
Mr. M'Donald : I think Mr. Gladstone is well aware that my lodge is unani¬
mous in its loyalty to the R.W.G.L.
Mr. Gladstone : I have no information to that effect.
Mr. M'Donald: Well I give him the information here. Now what is the
standing of that lodge to be during the next twelve months ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : In addition to that there is the District Lodge of South
West Lancashire under the R.W.G.L., with now, I believe, 32 subordinate lodges
under its jurisdiction > there is the District Lodge of Central Yorkshire, presided, over
by Bro. Brown, with 38 subordinate lodges, who have declared their allegiance to the
R.W.G.L. •, and as the quarter is approaching, when the quarterly password is to be
vchanged, I want to know what will be the position of these District Lodges ? What
do you propose to do with them ? What will you do if they refuse to take your pass¬
word and pay you tax? Because you know we are interested in their existence.
Mr. Malins : I very willingly answer this question. It is clearly the point
stated at the foot of that paper. All the Lodges in England are under the Grand
Lodge of England, and any direct relations that have been established between them
and the R.W.G.L. presided over by Colonel Hickman must cease during that
time; and, on the other hand, any coloured lodges that we have formed in the
United States, or anywhere else in the jurisdiction of any Grand Lodge that
acknowledges Col. Hickman, we at once resign to him ; and even if a score or fifty
lodges in Canada apply to us to be organised or to receive our password, we should
positively decline to accept any allegiance from them. We propose to leave each
other's territory intact. There is the principle, you see. Now, the Doctor wishes to
know what we should do with regard to these districts where there are two bodies
that call themselves the District Lodges, one acknowledging the R.W.C.L. while the
other acknowledges the R.W.G.L. of the World, presided over by the Rev. James
Yeames. As I have said, all the lodges in the country would at once come under
the Grand Lodge of England. What' should we do ? I tell you what I think we
should do, but of course it would rest with the Executive. What I should advocate
would be this : In both cases summon a joint meeting of the two bodies ; let all the
officers go out of office, the two bodies to become one—jointly elect officers, and
proceed as a single District Lodge; indeed, just as they have been before. Of course,
reasonably expecting that if union were not consummated next May—though it is the
conviction of our hearts that it will, if you comply with what you have said is your
intention—each body is to resume the position it now holds. We think this is a sine
qua non to reunion, and if it be complied with, and the pledges made are carried
out, and we accept them in good faith, I believe that next May will see us again one
body.
Mr. PrichARD said that so far as he was concerned his District Lodge had
never wished to disconnect themselves from the Grand Lodge of England. They
had come to an issue on a resolution moved by Bro. Newett, D.T., recognising Bro.
Yeames as R.W.G.T., and approving of the acts of their representatives at Louis¬
ville. They had moved an amendment disapproving of their acts, still intending to
remain in their old position with regard to the Grand Lodge of England, and yet in
connection with the R.W.G.L. Their action was not out of disrespect to Bro.
Malins, for there were those who had more regard for that brother on his side than
those who were at present with him. It was simply that they wished to retain
the position they held twelve months back. They did not consider they had
altered their position one jot; they simply considered that the other parties had altered
theirs. He was afraid the terms proposed would not be entirely satisfactoiy, and that
showed the necessity of their having a little time to consider the points. He was sure
they only desired to have reunion. His hands were not tied, but still he must abide
by the wishes of those he represented in South-West Lancashire.
Mr. Kempster thought the question was one on which they could hardly give
an immediate deliverance in the way of a sine qua non. His feeling was that the
position taken by Bro. Malins was the correct one, but at the same time this was a
SECOND DAY.
81
matter of detail on which both sides must be anxious to meet the views of the
others ; and he would like to know what the brethren on the other side thought
would be a right and acceptable course to pursue.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We want all the information we can get before we give
you an answer. That is the object we have in asking the questions now. It has been
stated that the giving up of these "loyal members" to the R.W.G.L. of the World—
for it just means that—is a sine qua non to reunion.
Mr. Kempster : That is not the deliverance. Bro. Malins does not say he is
prepared to insist upon it.
Mr. Malins : It appears to us that it is a sine qua non, but we are open to
conviction.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: All I want is to understand distinctly. We now under¬
stand this is essential.
Mr, Kempster : We have not even said so.
Mr. Gladstone : Allow me to say that in considering this document we saw
that there were a considerable number of matters of detail which would require con¬
sideration, and into which we entered practically not at all because we had not
time, and whilst Bro. Malins has indicated just now what he regards as essential, and
which I think to be a fair and straight conclusion in the matter, we on this side
expect we shall have to confer together about this and some such other matters with
you. I am prepared to go a considerable length to meet the wishes of our friends.
In reply to Mr. M'Donald, I may just say that I did not know that the lodge he
referred to had declared its allegiance to the body presided over by Col. Hickman.
Mr. M'Donald : I think I recollect stating to yourself that I would not give
up my allegiance to Col. Hickman until he had appeared in this country and I had
heard him, and also that my lodge was unanimous on the question.
Mr; Gladstone : I know that the lodge disapproved of the action of the Grand
Lodge of Scotland. It is one of the very few that have done so.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We hope there will be more.
Mr. Gladstone : Whilst it expressed disapproval of the decision of the Grand
Lodge, it did not intimate its severance from the Grand Lodge, or in any way refuse
to recognise the R. W. G. L. of the World, under whose jurisdiction the Grand Lodge
of Scotland is. We must remember this, that if we are sincere in seeking reunion we
must be prepared very generously, because very faithfully, to give and to take on such
little matters as these, for they are minor matters. If there is a certain prospect of
reunion between this and next May, it does not matter very much with what body the
lodges are connected in the interval. I may say that whilst I shall not object at all to
Col. Hickman coming down to the jurisdiction over which I am privileged and
honoured to preside, it does not require a moment's consideration for me to say that if
we are to be at war until May we will not get peace then.
Mr. Pyper. : I think it would be almost impossible to exaggerate the importance
of the point raised, because on the action taken by the brethren on the opposite side
depends the possibility of reunion in May next. Dr. Oronhyatekha speaks of the
lodges that are loyal to the R.W.G.L.; that is right enough from his standpoint, but,
what is loyalty? We hold that the lodges that remain with the Grand Lodges
here are the "loyal" lodges. The derivation of the word "loyal" is lex, which is
Latin for law, legis, legal; French loyelle, whence comes the English word "loyal,"
simply legal, or submitting to law. Dr. Oronhyatekha thinks those who remain with
the body he represents are acting legally in this matter; our opinion is that they are-
acting illegally by permitting a violation of the law of the Order. If we fight till May
reunion cannot take place then, if ever ; and if we ceased to fight it would not be a
laying down of principle on the other side ; it would simply be an armistice for the
time being. I am making these remarks in the spirit you made yours. I know that
the lodges must be protected, and if the R.W.G.L. of the World takes the same
stand it will simply keep us fighting for at least six months ; but if I saw any better
way—if there is anything better that could be done, I would do it; but I am sorry
if we should part here.
G
82
THIRD DAY.
Mr. M'Donald : Seeing that the other side are not unanimous, for Bro. Ivemp-
ster took objection to the deliverance of Bro. Malins
Mr. Pyper rose to order: Bro. Kempster had been misrepresented. He did not
say he disagreed with Bro. Malins.
The Chairman understood he did not want this statement to be considered a
hard and fast line.
Mr. M'Donald : Seeing it is conceded that what we have advanced is a point
of vast importance, I request that document may be taken back and an authoritative
opinion delivered upon it.
Mr. Gladstone : This is a deliberate and authoritative document, there are
minor matters which could not be included in it, but we must decline to take it back.
The Chairman : If they had entered into every minute detail it would have had
a dictatorial aspect, and would never have been accepted. There has been war, pre¬
liminaries of peace have been signed, and in these circumstances everything bearing
the appearance of warfare would be improper, and whatever may have that appearance,
until peace is ratified, should be desisted from.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : That of course we must follow if this is accepted on this
side of the house. Another question : Next May they say they look forward to a
probable reunion. Will you let us understand what you mean by reunion. Here is
the R.W.G.L. ; Col. Hickman, R.W.G.T. ; and W. S. Williams, R.W.G.S. ; and
there you have your body ; Rev. J. Yeames, R.W.G.T. ; and Mr. Malins, secretary.
What do you mean to do in regard to reunion? One body meets at Portland ; the
other at Philadelphia. How will you effect reunion then ?
Mr. Gladstone : If the camel bear &11 the rest, that last straw will not break its
back. It is a matter for arrangement.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : But I want to know what the arrangement is to be. We
want to ascertain clearly what your views are,
Mr. Pyper : We thought the two bodies should meet on the same date in the
same city, and committees could go back and forwards to arrange any matters of
difficulty.
Col. Hickman pointed out that while in the document they expressed their
belief that the pledges given were given in good faith, they asked them to wait for
reunion until the pledges were earned out.
The chairman hoped these matters of detail would be arranged in a spirit of
peace, and that if negociations failed, both sides would be free to assume the position
they were in that day, and it would be unwise for anyone to forestall difficulties when
nobody knew that any would arise.
The Chairman then left the chair, and the conference adjourned at 11-40 p.m.
until 11 o'clock next morning.
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 21.
Afternoon Sitting.
\ The American brethren came into the conference at 3 30 p.m. instead of at 11,
as arranged on the previous evening.
Mr. Morgan proposed that Mr. Prichard occupy the chair.
Mr. Pyper seconded, and the motion was carried.
After silent prayer the minutes were read by Mr. Turnbull, and confirmed.
Mr. Turnbull, as secretary, submitted a document in reply to the question men¬
tioned on Friday evening.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I object. You will see at once the force of the objection
I raise to receive that at this time. That should come in after the reading of the reply
to the paper presented last night, inasmuch as it is a new document; and when you
have heard our reply, you may not think it necessary to submit that, and if you think
it necessary then to submit it, of course there will be time for us to consider it.
THIRD DAY.
Mr. Gladstone : I have, in response, to say that I differ somewhat from the
Doctor in his opinion of the impropriety of its being now presented, as it is in reply
to a question submitted to us by the other side last night, and which was considered
should have been included in the document which we did submit. We take the very
first opportunity of making a formal deliverance in reply to the request of the
brethren.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I will call the attention of Bro. Gladstone to the fact
that Mr. M'Donald requested at last night's session that if the document was incom¬
plete, or anything had to be added, it should be taken back and given to us in a
complete form, and that he was assured that it was well understood, properly matured,
and complete. Therefore I apprehend that the contention is good, that the answer
to that document then submitted and the only documents before us when preparing
these answers should be the only documents before the conference. If after they
have learned our reply to the well-matured document which they submitted last night,
complete as their own declarations, they say they have anything further to submit we
shall give it the most earnest -and careful consideration, and meet the questions
to which they have referred as best we may in the interest of reunion and peace.
Mr. Gladstone : I wish in reply to say that the document we submitted last
night was a well matured and complete answer to the document which had been sub¬
mitted by the other side, which was perfectly complete as an acceptance of the basis
of reunion proposed. It was impossible that in that document we could make a
reply to the question, which was not put till after the document was submitted.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I say in reply that the attention of the brethren having
been called to the fact by Bro. M'Donald, had they preferred any request for delay,
or expressed themselves as having a desire to submit this additional paper, we should
have readily granted the delay till they had prepared the additional document, we
would have waited any length of time before we proceed to its consideration. But
no such request having been made, or intimation of it having been given, it is
manifestly to me out of place to insist that it should be introduced now or before the
answer is read. If, then, their desire is to put in this paper, it will receive our
careful consideration.
Mr. M 'Donald : It is distinct in the recollection of all that I made that request,
considering its great importance, and that it was treated by the gentlemen on this side
of the table as a minor matter, easier to be settled in detail. I said, what I repeat,
that I consider it a most important matter for consideration. What is to become of
what we consider the loyal lodges during this, until the time you have met to ratify ?
Now, the answer I got was : "We cannot add a word to that document." These
were the words, or to that effect; and we retired with that knowledge. We meet
to-day, I am glad to say, to hear the brethren on the other side of the table confess
their error, and for that reason I am happy to hear the Doctor say if necessary we
shall consider it.
Mr. Gladstone : The notes of the reporters will show that not one only, but
several members on this side of the house distinctly intimated that they would confer
upon this particular. That was a matter on which we had not considered, but would
consider. We have done so, and at the earliest moment present our deliverance.
That is all.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I do not object for one moment to the consideration of
these additional points and the submission of them to this conference, but that, just
on the eve of our reading our answer to a paper, another should be interjected. I
say if this paper is to be put in, let it be put in in its natural order. I shall not have
the slightest objection to receive either that paper or any other the brethren may wish
to submit; and I should have no objection to give them more time. But I do object
to the interjection of this paper between the paper submitted and the reply to that
paper which is now ready.
Mr. Stockbridge: It is only fair. Having adjourned after several questions had
been put and answered, granted imperfectly, we left taking away our brethren's
views, and we were to come prepared this morning with an answer. I submit it is
only strictly in conformity with all rules of procedure, having received the invitation
to consider, that we should now take the reply.
84
THIRD DAY.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I suppose they consider that the paper has been read, but
not received by the Conference.
Mr. Gladstone : I do not object to the other side declining to receive the docu¬
ment read, or to consider it at this time.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I decline receiving the paper at this time.
Mr. Gladstone : I am willing.
Mr. Kempster : I do not object to the postponement of the paper, but I must
repeat what I said, that the matter was before the consideration of our brethren on
the other side; it came from Bro. Gladstone, who was prepared to go a long way in
the direction intimated in this paper, and the direction really intimated by the speakers
on the other side; and I referred to it as a matter of detail, which on our side we
should certainly be disposed to consider rather in a conciliatory spirit, and that nothing
should arise from such point of detail that would prevent reunion.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I do not object that we have considered the details, but to-
the interjection of it between the two papers. It ought not to be received or presented
now by the conference till after you have heard our answer to the paper presented to us,
and the only paper which was before us to answer.
Mr. M'Donald : The reason I wished the thing put on the paper is, it fell from
the lips of Bro. Malins that it was given as a sine qua non, and Mr. Gladstone said
it appeared to him to be a proper deliverance.
Mr. Gladstone : If it be necessary we shall have the reading of the reporters'
notes on the matter.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Bro. M 'Donald can withdraw the expression, as the notes
will show.
The Chairman : This should not have precedence of the document which con¬
tains a reply to the representatives of the R.W. G. L., for the nature of the matter
contained in it is different from the verbal reply to the question when put last evening;,
and as Bro. Kempster has consented, it should not be received until after the reading,
of that paper.
Mr. Gladstone : I am quite willing, in the meantime, to withdraw the docu¬
ment, as the report will show the reason of its withdrawal.
Colonel Hickman : Do I understand that the report is to show that that was in
order and its contents to appear on the records, and thus have all the same effect as
coming in between the two papers? If so, I unquestionably object. From the very
fact that I think it is justice to both sides, and that is all I want, we submit the pro¬
positions. They were carried by our brethren and inserted at a late hour. We took
that answer to bring the reply to those declarations; and Bro. Gladstone ex¬
pressed himself last night there were many other minor details which might be
considered afterwards. But, of course, this reply must come before the records of
this conference can show anything else pertaining to the matter before us; and if it
is to be accepted by this conference as read and withdrawn, it will show that such ai
paper was offered between the two papers, which is just the same as if formally be¬
fore the conference now, to which I very much object.
Mr. Gladstone : I think the document will not appear in the minutes preceding-
the document now to be submitted. The reports will only show, I think, that a
document was presented, and will then show the conversation which has taken place
relative to its being received and its being withdrawn and presented at a later time.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then you simply withdraw the document ?
Mr. Gladstone : Yes, just now. It is necessary it should be withdrawn, as the
brother objects to its being received just now. They have stated their reasons. The-
reasons will appear with the reasons for the withdrawal.
Mr. Malins : We do not withdraw it unconditionally, but because our friends-
won't permit its reception.
The Chairman : If it had been presented last night it might have affected the-
paper, and therefore it should follow it.
Mr. Daniel : There is much reason in the position taken up by the Doctor and
Col. Hickman. At the same time I must admit there is no inconsistency on the part
THIRD DAY.
85
of those on this side, and I am somewhat unwilling that Bro. M'Donald should
put this construction upon our actions, especially as I have a pretty distinct recollec¬
tion that either our Scottish brother or some other brother on the other side distinctly
stated we did not know our own minds, and they would like to have it in black and
white. Well, feeling that, as we did, we naturally said, Let them have it in black and
white, and hence it was that the document was put in at the time so that you should
really have it. At the same time I endorse what has fallen from Bro. Gladstone and
other brethren.
The document was withdrawn accordingly.
Col. Hickman then submitted the following :—
"The undersigned, representing the R.W.G.L. of the I.O.G.T., having had
under consideration the paper submitted at a late hour by Bro. Gladstone and the
brethren associated with him, have arrived at the following conclusions : —
" I. That Bros. Gladstone and Malins and the brethren associated with them
are in error when they state that Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha and the
brethren associated with them as representing the R.W.G.L., and as specially
authorised to act on. behalf of leading officers and members, and members of Grand
Lodges in the Southern States of America. Bro. Col. Hickman, as was distinctly
stated, is alone authorised and empowered to act, not only in behalf of leading
officers and members of Grand Lodges, but also certain Grand Lodges and executives
of Grand Lodges in the Southern States.
" 2. That the proposals presented by Bro. Col. Hickman to the conference
from certain Grand Lodges and Grand Executive and leading officers of the Southern
States, surrendering their respective territories to the R.W.G.L. in so far as the
coloured race is concerned, are accepted as having been tendered in good faith.
" 3. That the said proposals, submitted to this conference by Bro. Col. Hick¬
man have been, endorsed by every Southern Grand Lodge which had a session since
the said proposals were drawn up, among the number being that of Kentucky, which
has endorsed the principles by an unanimous vote.
"4. That the amendment of Bro. Judge Black to constitution of R.W.G.L.
adopted at its Bloomington Session, May, 1875* made complete provision for the
admission of the negro race, in every part of the world, into sub-lodges, and their
organisation into Grand Lodges, with co-equal representation in the R.W.G.L. on
receiving the consent of the existing Grand Lodges, so that at the time of, and before
the withdrawal of a portion of the British representatives, the laws of the R.W.G.L.,
as embodied in Bro. Judge Black's amendment, and in the substitute of Bro. Dr.
Oronhyatekha, had most unmistakeably reaffirmed and had made full provision for
the practical enforcement of its 'well-understood fundamental principle that the doors
of the Order were open to all, without distinction of race, colour, or condition.'
" 5. That the action of the R.W.G.L. at the Madison Session in 1872, and which
action was in strict harmony with the proposals for a separate and distinct organisation,
offered by Bro. J. Malins, found on p. 48 of the Journal of said session, giving its
sanction to a separate organisation for the benefit of the coloured people, under its
care, was intended to and did meet the wants of the coloured people, peculiarly
situated at that time, and was not intended, and did not thereby exclude them from
the Order.
"6. That the following declarations of Bros. Malins and Gladstone, and the
brethren associated with them, viz.:—' That we are of opinion that by the fulfilment
of the pledges above-named, the object for which we have been contending and to
secure which we felt constrained to separate, will be attained in the jurisdiction speci-
86
THIRD DAY.
fied by the doors of our Order been open in good faith to the negro rage,' in view of
the fact that the pledges above referred to are given under and ill fulfilment of the
laws of the R.W.G.L. existing before and at the time of the said separation fully and
clearly establishes the fact that at the time of the said separation all that was lacking
was the consent of existing Grand Lodges.
"7. That Bro. William M'Donald put the following question in the con¬
ference 'Do you think that by altering the constitution of R.W.G.L. where it says
that the assent of the Grand Lodge is required before another Grand Lodge Charter
can be granted in any jurisdiction it would meet the evils complained of, not only in
America, but all over,the world?' That Bro. Malins replied, ' I know that it would
not,' indicating thereby that even if the proviso in the R.W.G.L. constitution
requiring the consent of the existing Grand Lodge before missionising its territory
were taken out, it would still not be accepted by brethren on the other side.
" 8. That in the event of a Grand Lodge failing to mission or giving its consent
to the R.W.G.L. to mission the negroes by forming sub-lodges and a Grand Lodge
for same in accordance with the laws of the R.W.G.L., in the opinion of the under¬
signed the only constitutional remedy will be to amend the proviso in the law
requiring the assent of a Grand Lodge, but in our opinion no such amendment will be
necessary.
"9. That the basis for reunion as presented to this conference by Bros. Col.
Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha and,the brethren associated with them on behalf of
the R.W.G.L. of I.O.G.T., taken in connection with the proposals presented by
Bro. Col. Hickman on behalf of the Southern Grand Lodges, though acknowledged
to be satisfactory, yet it is proposed that the reunion should be postponed till May
next, and in the meantime the R.W.G. Templar of I.O.G.T. should hand over the
sub-lodges now under the immediate jurisdiction of the R.W.G.L. to a ' Provisional
body,' known and described as the 'R.W.G.L. of the World,' and such handing over
of the loyal members of the Order to the said ' Provisional body' or any other body
being declared by Bro. Malins as a ' sine qua non' to such reunion, and the R.W.G.
Templar having no such constitutional power therefore cannot, under any circum¬
stances, surrender any portion of the Order to any other body, ' Provisional or
otherwise.'
"10. We had earnestly hoped that the proposals submitted by us would have
been acceptable, and led to immediate reunion ; we are surprised to learn from the
paper before that Bros. Gladstone and Malins and the brethren associated with them
either have not the authority or are unwilling to effect immediate reunion on a basis-
acknowledged to be acceptable. We are here for immediate reunion, and we cannot
under any circumstances consent to the proposed delay, for such delay would be
ruinous to our lodges."
" Submitted in Faith, Hope, and Charity,
"J. J. Hickman, R.W.G.T.
" Oronhyatekha, G.W.C.T. and Representative to
R.W.G.L.
" Samuel Capper, P. Representative to R.W.G.L.
" William M'Donald, Representative from Scotland.
" joHN Prichard, D.T., Lancashire, S.W.
" John Harding, Representative, New Zealand, North.
" William Stockbridge, P.D. Counsellor, East and"
Mid Surrey, London."
THIRD DAY.
87
Mr. Turnbull then submitted the following document :—
" Whereas, the representatives of the R.W.G.L. of the World, and the United
Executives of Great Britain and Ireland, have accepted the basis of reunion submitted
by Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha, and the brethren associated with them ; and
" Whereas, the friendliest possible feelings should be maintained in order to the
successful issue of the negotiations ; and
" Whereas, it is eminently desirable that no obstacle should be left in the way of
an honourable and satisfactory reunion ; and
"Whereas, the question has been submitted as to the status of such district or
subordinate lodges working under the jurisdiction of Grand Lodges which acknowledge
the R.W.G.L. of the World, and which district or subordinate lodges have declared
their refusal to be associated with the said Grand Lodges, and their allegiance to the
R.W.G.L., we decide and agree as follows :—
" i. That such lodges may remain separate from the aforesaid Grand Lodges, and
in alliance with, and under the direct jurisdiction of, the R.W.G.L. presided over by
Col. Hickman.
" 2. That while these negotiations are pending, and until the projected reunion
at the next session of the separate bodies, clearance cards issued by lodges working
under the jurisdiction of either supreme body should be accepted in lodges working
under the jurisdiction of the other supreme body.
"3. That between the executives of the said supreme bodies and their representa¬
tives a perfect armistice must be maintained, our honour being pledged that so far as
we are concerned things shall remain precisely as they are at present until the consum¬
mation of the projected reunion at the next annual session of the two supreme bodies.
"Respectfully submitted in Faith, Hope, and Charity,
"Joseph Malins, R.W.G.S. of R.W.G.L. of the World,
and G.W.C.T. of England.
"George Gladstone, G.W.C.T. of Scotland.
"Morris Morgan, G.W.C.T. of Wales (Welsh).
" W. L. Daniel, G.W.C.T. of the English Grand Lodge
of Wales.
"John Pyper, P. G.W.C.T. of Ireland.
"John Kempster, G.W.C. of England.
"Wm. W. Turnbull, G.W.S. of Scotland, and Secretary
to the United Executives of Great Britain and Ireland."
Chairman : This is a new document, and it is unexcepted. Are there any
remarks ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I am very glad now to receive this document, because in
it we have it clearly and fully declared that the basis of settlement offered by us is
acceptable. I beg to ask Bro. Gladstone, or any brethren on that side, whether they
can tell us if the basis of settlement for reunion is acceptable, why there should be the
delay of a single day, or a single hour, for the consummation of an object that we all
acknowledge to be in the highest interests of the Order and the cause of temperance.
Mr. Gladstone : I am able to reply to the Doctor just now. I do not do so,
inasmuch as I would like the reply to be that of all this side, and I simply rise, there¬
fore, to say that I think it would be desirable in view of both documents now submitted
that there should be an adjournment for a specified time. A brief time let it be, say
till 4-30. Then I should reply to that question, and perhaps have something else to
say relative to what is now submitted for the first time.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : May I suggest that the brethren have such time as they
88
THIRD DAY.
may desire for the conference, in order to get the reply, for it is very important for us
to get that reply. I suggest that the brethren should adjourn till they are ready.
Adjourned accordingly at 4-10 p.m.
Evening Sitting.
On the conference resuming,
Mr. Gladstone said : I am authorised to state that having read the document
submitted by Col. Hickman and the others aforesaid with him, in response to our
acceptance of the proposed basis of reunion, that we neither reply to the propositions
contained therein, nor admit the correctness of the representations made ; that it
seems to us that we have done all that we possibly could in declaring our acceptance
of said proposed basis, and our readiness to advise the Grand Lodges concerned, i.e.,
the Grand Lodges under the jurisdiction of the R. W.G.L. of the World, to empower
their representatives to consummate the reunion at the next annual session of the two
supreme bodies. Further, that it is impossible for us to be parties to any reunion
effected at this hour, inasmuch as we have no powers to effect such from the parties
concerned, many, or at least some of the Grand Lodges concerned, not knowing even
that we are present at this conference at all. Furthermore, we can only repeat our
approval of the said basis, our promise to do what we can to induce those with whom
we are allied to reunite under the pledges given, our belief that the only possible thing
to secure reunion is to agree now on an armistice to be honourably observed, and that,
failing the approbation of the other side of this position, we can only regret that we
are not in a position to do more.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I understand, then, that the brethren on the other side
give as a reason why reunion should not take place immediately—and when I say
"immediately," understand, I mean within a reasonable time—the fact that they
are here without authority to consummate such union ? As an additional question,
may I ask whether it has not been declared in the public journals that these brethren
have been expressly empowered by the Grand Lodges meeting in Great Britain to
negotiate and effect reunion upon an honourable basis ? Of course that is merely
incidental. The main point at which I wish to get is that the reasons these brethren
are now unable to complete reunion, the basis being agreed upon, is that they are
here without authority to effect that reunion.
Mr. Gladstone : I have already, Mr. President, in the statement made, answered
the question now put by Dr. Oronhyatekha. We have no power to consummate a
reunion just now. As to what has appeared in the public journals, I say nothing.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : May I ask again, whether May is the shortest possible
time that they require to effect this reunion ? If not, then, what time ?
Mr. Gladstone : May is stated as having been selected as the month for the
annual sessions of the two supreme bodies, the bodies that are required to be
reunited. I do not know whether it might be convenient to alter the dates fixed and
have a meeting of these bodies earlier or not. So anxious was I for reunion, in view
of the point for which I have struggled being conceded, that I should be very glad.if
these annual sessions could be arranged for an earlier day, and the reunion consum¬
mated as speedily as possible, and I am distinctly of opinion that a reunion cannot be
effected until the said bodies can meet.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I understand, therefore, from the answers now given,
there is no power, nor can there be any power given, to these brethren to effect reunion
until the session of the R. W.G.L. and the session of the provisional body to which
reference has been made. Now I speak for myself when I say that so far as I am per¬
sonally concerned, of course my colleagues have had no conference with me in this
matter. Yet personally I cannot see the propriety or possibility of our consenting
to delay reunion until the session of R. W. G. L. It is most unfortunate that these
brethren representing, as I understand, the Executives of the Grand Lodges, are
not now prepared to take upon themselves certain responsibilities.
Mr. Malins : Five Grand Lodges.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I understand at Louisville at the time of the separation,
THIRD DAY.
89
they had not been instructed by their Grand Lodges to organise a R.W.G.L.; that
on that occasion they did not shrink from taking upon themselves without instruction
to organise a R.W.G.L. Now then
Mr. Kempster rose to order. I think if at this stage we discuss the proceedings of
the past we shall have to discuss them a long time. We should confine ourselves to
the present, and the negotiations for the future.
Dr. oronhyatekha: I revert then, that I regret exceedingly that these
brethren are not in a position now to take upon themselves the responsibility of
consummating a reunion upon the basis submitted by us, and which we are all agreed
are acceptable and honourable ; and the terms asked for are such that I cannot see
how we on the one side can grant it. I only speak this from personal feelings, having
had no conference with my colleagues. But I may be allowed to say this, that so far
as I am personally concerned, although union has been considered either by my chief
or by myself, or any of our colleagues, as to- this matter before us, from our great
desire that no technical matter should be brought in the way of consummating reunion :
I do not recognise these brethren as representing the R.W.G.L, of the World. I
cannot see how, if even we were willing, we could consent to alter the constitution of
the R.W.G.L. which we represent, as proposed in this supplemental paper, viz., the
permitting of a clearance card from a foreign body to be received into lodges in our
body. I say, I cannot see how, even if ever so willing to accept the terms embodied,
we could possibly consent to it; because it would certainly involve a violation of the
laws of the R. W.G.L., which we are not authorised to do in any particular.
Mr. glad6tone ; I am authorised to say that if this is objected to we do not
pr^ss it. y
Dr. oronhyatekha : Very well; it follows, as was said by Bro. Malins last
night, it was considered by them a sine qua non that we should abstain from any
further hostile action, if I may be permitted to use the term to-day—he did not use
the particular words—in these several jurisdictions, meaning that the R.W.G.T. and
myself must abstain from any action that would secure the allegiance of any lodge
within this country or any other jurisdiction, or from any action that would tend in
any way to put the position of the R.W.G.L. as we view it before the people, i.e.,
as I understand it, that if we were to go through the country of England and meet
our brethren, our lodges which are now in loyalty to us, and put them in possession
of the facts as we think they are in reference to the facts, we would be violating
the terms submitted by you last evening, and which you say are a sine qua non to
reunion next May. I cannot conceive how the R.W.G.T. can leave his lodges in
this country unorganised and unprotected. It would be unreasonable to ask him
upon a future contingency which is uncertain, which may be probable but uncertain,
to leave his lodges in this jurisdiction or any other jurisdiction unprotected by the
organisation, the necessary machinery provided by the Order, or how in view of his
official obligation he can for a moment entertain the idea of leaving his sub-lodges in
this jurisdiction unprotected by the proper machinery of the Order. Therefore, I feel
that in asking for this delay with these conditions, you virtually compel us to refuse to
accede to the terms.
Mr. Malins : My simple answer is, that in the second document we handed in
we conceded the points that those lodges could remain the lodges that had declared
for him and the body he represents, and I remain in the same relation to him as now.
Dr. oronhyatekha : But the point I strongly insisted upon is that the duty
of the R.W.G.T. is to protect those lodges. How is it to be done? The Order over
which he presides and whose laws he has taken a solemn obligation to administer, is
ordained for the protection and fostering of sub-lodges and carrying out certain
machinery, namely, Grand Lodge machinery. Now, then, you are asking the
R.W.G.T. to leave his loyal lodges which exist in this country without that protection
till next May; while, on the other side, you have not only the machinery of the
Grand Lodge, but of a R.W.G.L. to protect the lodges in this country. Therefore
I say in view of the obligation taken by the R.W.G.T., I cannot conceive how he can
possibly assent to your proposals without violating his official obligation. Therefore,
as I say again, I am constrained to repeat that the proposal submitted by you
virtually compels him to violate his official obligation or refuse your terms.
9o
THIRD DAY.
Coi. Hickman : This is all very painful to me. It is painful, I presume, to all
the brethren. I hope and trust that my past actions in regard to these brethren have
been such as to show them that in all this matter I have no personal animosity to any
of them. I beg to affirm it here again that I have kind feelings towards them ; and
whatever may be our differences in regard to the question before us, I see no just
cause for anything arising that would disturb my personal relations. I certainly shall
not, if I know it, be the means of bringing about any such result as that. But, Mr.
Chairman, there is no question of the fact that I have resting upon me the obligation
of the highest office of the Order, and that so far as the Order I represent is con¬
cerned, it is the complete controlling power of all the Grand Lodges in question
under its charge, and all the sub-lodges that have received from Grand Lodges their
charters from the body I represent. Such being the case, if I were asked to tie my
hands till May and suffer the lodges that are loyal to the body I represent to remain
without that protection provided for them by the machinery of this Order, I would
seem to be derelict in my duty. There is no question of that. Besides that, my
brethren, we might agree that we would have this armistice. We could not prevent
the membership from carrying on this discussion, and it would result in the defeat of
the measures we would like to consummate. Besides, it would prevent the Order
from accomplishing its original desires. Our attention would be turned, and the
membership Would be in regard to this question, none of us being.able to do any¬
thing for the good of the Order in the meanwhile. These things are all to be con¬
sidered. I have come here for peace and reunion. I desire to put aside every other
thing in this world in relation to this Order. There will not go from this room a
heart sadder than mitfe, and one that would be bowed down more than 'mine, because
we cannot agree. You may take this any way you will; and you see the position it
places me in. If we had reunion to-day, my brethren, from this very moment, and the
Order were reunited, my work has only just begun. I have battles to fight over
yonder that have been fought once; and notwithstanding the condition of my health,
for the sake of carrying out in good faith all that I propose, I would be willing to
risk my life and die, if need be, in consummating reunion between our Order. "While
it is true that on the other hand if we have no reunion my duties are arduous, my
responsibilities are great, and I shall not shrink from endeavouring to do in the sight
of God what I think I am called to do. It is all labour to me. It is all heartburning
to me. It destroys me; and I may not know how long I may be permitted,
brethren, to work in the temperance cause in my present condition ; and when there
is no reunion these responsibilities increase till I am racked in pain, and know not
what hour I may be called upon to give place to others to carry on the work. It has
been my constant thought and care. There is scarcely an hour from sleep in which
my brain is not active in trying' to devise some means by which these difficulties may
be overcome; and when it cannot be done, the anxieties and the depressions are
the greater. Now, I would ask the brethren here to consider this, when you say you
have not the responsibility or power, and cannot take the responsibility, it must be
admitted, brethren, that there was responsibility taken in thte separation, because, as-
I understand, but one Grand Lodge had then taken action, and the other brethren
separated from the body without the direction of their several Grand Lodges. All
your Grand Lodges have not even yet met.
Mr. Morgan : We carried out the directions of my Grand Lodge.
Mr. Kempster : You should not open the past.
Col. Hickman : I always admit a mistake if corrected; but I was justified in
my remark, Bro. Malins will remember that I called for the action of those bodies,
and he presented me a resolution from the Grand Lodge of England, and said that
if I called on the other brethren for similar ones he did not think they could furnish
me with them.
Mr. Malins: I never admitted the Grand Lodges had not met. Those of
England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales had met and delivered upon this matter.
Mr. Morgan : Will Col. Hickman tell us if that resolution was demanded
from me ?
Col. Hickman : No; I drew my conclusion that the Grand Lodges had not
met from the statement of Bro. Malins.
THIRD DAY.
91
Mr. Malins : I do not admit the remark. I have no recollection of any"
deliverance from myself as to any Grand Lodge but my own which I gave.
Mr. Morgan : I distinctly stated at Louisville that I was altogether under the
express direction of my own Grand Lodge.
Col. Hickman : I accept that; but I say I was justified in making the statement
from what occurred between Bro. Malins and myself, and the conversation which
occurred in the parlour of the Louisville Hotel, when Bro. Malins saw me and
handed me the resolution of the Grand Lodge of England.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I would ask Bro. Morgan
Mr. Kempster : I do strongly object to our now going into the discussion of
past matters. Unless there is some firm decision on that matter we shall waste
much time. This matter has been fully explained on both sides, and I hope in respect
to this in future no references of the kind will be permitted to be made.
The Chairman : Permit Bro. Hickman to state any reason for the remark, and
we may have an opportunity'in deciding whether he is justified in proceeding.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : The point I made when corrected by you is that the brethren
are not now willing to assume the responsibility. I think it is quite in order in refe¬
rence to this matter to show, if we can, that in separation they did assume responsi¬
bilities which were beyond those given to them by the Grand Lodges.
Mr. Kempster : In' reply to that, I say we are not dealing with the past ;■
we might discuss the whole of this business if we were now to hav£ to justify every
conclusion we take for the future by something of the past; we .might reopen the
whole of the discussion that has resulted from these documents. At this stage I
submit it would be inconvenient and highly improper to introduce any matter referring
to past conduct.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I have a right to ask if the remarks of Col. Hickman are
entirely unfounded, or unfounded at all, as stated.
Chairman : The reply to that should come from Bro. Morgan.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Bro. Morgan states he was authorised in his course at the
Bloomington session by his Grand Lodge.
Mr. Morgan : I did not; I was not there.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : At the Louisville session, then. Were you authorised
there ?
Mr. Morgan : Yes.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Then was the brother authorised by his Grand Lodge to
reorganise the R.W.G.L. ?
Mr. Pyper rose to order. Had that question reference to the statement made by
Bro. Morgan ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I also rise to order. I say the> brother has no right to-
impute motives as to the course I take.
Mr. Pyper : Everyone who speaks here has a motive ; it may be good or bad. I
submit that the question put by Dr. Oronhyatekha has no reference to it, but he is
introducing another question under the cover of an interruption. I want the ruling of
the chair. Has it reference to the matter before us ?
The Chairman : You put me in a difficult position. I am sure I cannot say
that it has any special reference.
Mr. Gladstone : It should not be put, then.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: Col. Hickman has stated that the brother took certain-
action at Louisville.
Mr. Pyper : Does Dr. Oronhyatekha argue against your ruling from the chair ?
The Chairman : I understand he is explaining.
Mr. Gladstone : Then I submit, as you have ruled the point out, it should not
be repeated, and Col. Hickman alone has the floor.
Mr. Morgan : I wish to reply to another statement. It is a point of order. I
was going to explain that I did not mean any disrespect to Col. Hickman in the
*9 2
THIRD DAY.
• denial I made, my object being simply to vindicate my position and action at
Louisville.
Col. Hickman : There is nothing I dislike more than misunderstandings. I
said, if anything in the reply was objectionable, it was not intended to be so under¬
stood ; my object in asking the question, or making the statement, as I said, from
the impression I received and the conversation I had with Bro. Malins, as to the reso¬
lution, was, that I was under the impression that the Grand Lodges had not given
■ direct instructions in a certain direction; and the connecting link with this matter
was that if the representatives at the R.W.G.L. had taken a different course, or had
gone beyond their instructions from their Grand Lodges, then they might in this case
without any instructions feel that they could for the sake of the cause agree to imme¬
diate reunion without consulting their body. And now, Mr. Chairman, it is a fact
■that reverting to the past will not heal the wounds. I have no inclination to go back.
I only mention that in order to connect it with the present. And now I do not say,
if we cannot agree, and it seems we cannot, that we shall delay, or that we should
continue to talk on questions that there is no possibility ^f our agreeing upon. The
longer we talk the further apart we shall be; and the best thing we can do is to put
ourselves in the hands of our Maker, each to try and resolve to do what is right, and
do each what he believes to be the honest discharge of his duty. And with kindness
to you all, with malice towards none, and a desire for the good of the Order, the
perpetuation of its principles and the reformation of the unfortunate of earth's
children, and believing that this would be greatly accomplished by our coming to¬
gether as one body again, it makes the regret the keener felt, because such cannot
now be accomplished.
Mr. Kempster : The two speeches we have had from our brethren, who are
leading and representing our brethren from the other side of the Atlantic, are very
momentous in the issues they involve ; and I do not think it would be right that we
should have listened to those speeches without giving back to them some expressions
of the same character that they have delivered towards us. There has certainly not
been any feeling on this side of personal animosity leading or guiding us in the
consideration of, this grave question. We have met here from the most earnest
desires for reunion. We have done everything in our power to accede to any terips
that were possible to bring about reunion; and if there were still more demanded
from us than we were yet enabled to concede, or are able to concede, we might even
yet be prepared to concede more than has been demanded, in some respects ; for, as
was intimated at an earlier stage of the conference, when one difficulty of detail
presented itself, we considered it and removed, in our consideration of it, the objection
that was stated on the other side. And I am authorised to state also, that if there
were other matters not provided for in the document submitted as the terms, or as
the basis for reunion, even though there might be matters on which we might per¬
sonally feel strongly, we would not take the responsibility of putting difficulties of
detail in the way, but that we should have been willing absolutely to agree to be
bound on all matters of detail not included or provided for by these documents by a
reference to Bro. W. Hoyle, the Chairman of this conference. And- I do not think
the point raised by the Doctor, as to the right or wrong of discussing this
question, Would have weighed with us one jot. If, on agreement of the
terms, Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha had wanted still, to assent for their
own credit's sake and the credit of the body they represent, to give the same
explanations which they have given at meetings hitherto, we should have been able to
follow those meetings and give our explanations ; and I do not think you would have
caused us to divide. There might be other points which might not be absolutely
indispensable with us, that we might be willing to refer to arbitration, or come to some
agreement upon ; but it must be seen by Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha
surely, that for us to concede or hasten the reunion without consulting the Grand
Lodges which we severally represent would probably cause that reunion to be less
satisfactory and certain; and in our judgment we have only delayed that consummation
-of the reunion that we might the more perfectly and entirely ensure the fullest possible
results to flow when that reunion would be consummated, so far as time would do.
What difference would it make if at once we shook hands as brothers, and agreed that
in heart and principle and in all but the mere signatories of the final terms which
THIRD DAY.
93-
ought to be submitted to the bodies we represent; but that in all feeling, and heart,
and co-operation for temperance, we were at once in that respect united, that union
only waiting to be ratified at the time our respective bodies met. I am sure 'if you
look at it in all its phases you must inevitably come to the conclusion that as doing
our duty in the sight of God, to the great interests now at stake, you had better accept
the terms that have been offered, subject to those details being agreed upon by some
individual outside. ' I am sorry to seem to do what Col. Hickman said might be
wasting terms ; but I do feel the responsibility of the matter. It does not affect me
personally one jot; but I do feel the responsibility of this matter. I am sure the gentle¬
men on your side do so. English Good Templars now co-operating in some respect
with you, feel the responsibility ; and they feel in this way, that while they will,
support you in your efforts to reunite, if our efforts are satisfactory and honourable to
ourselves, they will not support you if you decline to accept these terms and reunite
upon them ; and the failure of reunion upon the basis almost mutually agreed may do
great mischief to the cause in England. The delay of the consummation might cause
you to have connected with your R.W.G.L. at its next session 150,000 or 200,000 of
our British Good Templars. But the mere throwing up of the conditions now laid
down will not only fail you in having such a strong adhesion as that, but it will, with
the small number that may follow you here, do a very serious mischief to the work of
temperance in this country, the work of prohibition of the liquor traffic. We want to
avoid anything that is a surrender of principle, and we can go upon nothing that will
justify us to our constituents but on terms that are honourable. We wanted reunion,
and if all our efforts fail we throw upon you the responsibility of denying and re¬
fusing us that reunion.
Mr. M'Donald: There is one most important point entirely neglected, and that
is the safety of the loyal lodges during the time we have to wait for this reunion. Let
them direct attention to that. When I say that in Edinburgh, which is the best
District Lodge in Scotland, I was told with others by Bro. Gladstone that if I claimed
allegiance with Col. Hickman I could not sit there ; here is where I see the danger.
The machinery of England and Scotland are with you; but we are to be left in an
isolated condition unless we have the protection of the R.W.G.T., which I claim and
to which we adhere with our best allegiance. I ask this in the name of those who
have sent me here that he shall not leave this country till he has given us that pro¬
tection to which we are entitled as conscientious Good Templars; and I ask those
gentlemen on this side of the table, can we want our Order in Scotland without a
Grand Lodge? Can I, as a Scottish Good Templar, want us to be without a Grand
Lodge Executive ? Must we not have everything? For we cannot expect our sub-
lodges to be left where the gentlemen on that side of the table would seek to have
them left.
Mr. morgan: I am very much pleased with the conciliatory remarks of Col.
Hickman ; and though it was the first time for me to meet him at Louisville, ever
since I have found he has exhibited a most conciliatory spirit; and if it had been a
matter of mere feeling and spirit, and a question of courtesy, I have no hesitation in
saying we should have had no difficulty in coming to an amicable settlement with him
and his party. But the question at issue is for me a question of immense importance.
Col. Hickman told us yesterday that he had been educated in a particular manner.
I have been educated in a particular manner also ; but I have derived my education
upon moral questions from the Bible ; and as I understand the Bible—I don't mean
to arrogate to myself that I am the only one who understands the Bible properly, for
that would be assuming infallibility ; but as I understand the Bible, it makes no
distinction between races. According to the language of the Bible, "God made of
one blood all nations, to dwell together on the face of the earth;" and according to
the teaching of the New Testament, in Christ there is no distinction, neither Greek
nor Jew, barbarian, Scythian, bond or free, we are all one ; and therefore you can
understand how deeply I felt the moment I discovered that I was connected with an
organisation that in any way connived at what I considered in the light of the Divine
Record was a great violation of its fundamental principle.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I regret this duty was not done by my Bro. Kempster
with the same earnestness as he chose to call myself and Col. Hickman to order.
This would lead to the necessity of our establishing the fact that the R.W.G.L. has.
THIRD DAY.
at any time been guilty of what has been now stated. But I have no desire to enter
into it.
Mr. Pyper : Your remarks are out of order and should not be made. I have
sat here nearly three days, and am nearly full. I am as anxious for the good of
the temperance cause as Col. Hickman or Dr. Oronhyatekha.
Mr. Morgan : I have been sitting silently, and now I think in all fairness I
should state my position as to this great and momentous question. Of course, if you
hold I have no right, I will take my seat and protest.
The Chairman : It is for the conference to decide how long we shall go on. I
would not like to interrupt any speaker; but the responsibility having been thrown
by one side upon the other, so long as that is done replies must be given.
Mr. Gladstone : Then am I to understand you to rule that the whole matter is
-now over? (" Yes" and "No.")
Mr. Kempster rose to order. As Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha have
given addresses respecting the conclusion of the negotiations, and as Bro. Gladstone
has spoken as the representative of Scotland, I, as a representative of England,
hold that the other representatives should now be allowed to speak on both sides.
But I still support the point I took originally, that our remarks should not be a re¬
opening of the old question, or a discussion of the past, but have relation to the
conclusion, and the importance and possibility of still .promoting reunion on the
friendly remarks which may be of great value for future purposes.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I object to nothing that will be said as to the conclusion
of this matter; but I submit that any attempted justification of our acts in the past
should now be omitted.
Mr. Pyper : If this be the ruling, let it be so ; but what should delay those of
us who have the right to refer the past, present, or future, seeing the other brethren
have had an opportunity for two or three days. It is a matter of opinion; if Bro.
Morgan has a right, so have I.
The Chairman : When the negotiations were on, you had a right to occupy
the time on these matters, whether in justification of what you had done, or taking
■ the principle, of the opposite party. But I think now the remarks should be rather
general than directed to anything that may have occurred.
Mr. morgan: But I am bound to vindicate my position.
The Chairman : We are all bound to do that.
Mr. Morgan : If you rule me out of order, you throw a serious responsibility
upon me to say whether you should be allowed to make a statement on your course,
after we have finished the negotiation.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : It would assume the right to reopen the whole matter.
Mr. Daniel: Mr. Morgan is here as G.W.C.T. of a lodge that has 400 sub-
lodges and a membership of 20,000. I have every faith in his discretion that he will
not say anything here but that which will be in strict harmony with his own feelings
and those of his members. Therefore I do hope some leniency will be shown him,
as he has been particularly silent during the whole of the sittings of this conference.
Mr. Capper : We came here not to hear speeches justifying their past conduct
in this matter, but rather to seek to reunite the I.O.G.T. If it is to be a justification
from everybody, then we are not going to get out of this hall to-night. That's what
it means. If negotiations are now staid, the next thing is to go home. If we have
no real business to do but to listen to speeches justifying what has been done, it is a
waste of time so far as I am concerned.
Mr. Morgan : The rule has been laid down. Then let it be observed.
The Chairman : Proceed, then.
Mr. Morgan : Then I must be allowed to proceed in my own way without
interruption. I was going to say that, as we understood it, the great principle of
human equality was not duly observed by this Order throughout the whole of its
jurisdiction. We lay stress upon that principle. Our forefathers have suffered in
THIRD DAY.
95
vindication of it. I still preach it from my own pulpit; because I believe it. Hence,
"however much I felt for the temperance cause, however anxious I was for its success,
whatever I have been enabled to do in favour of the temperance reformation, I felt I
was not justified for a moment to do wrong that good might come. I do not impute
bad motives to those who adopt another course ; but with my views of the case, views
of theology, I could be no partisan in the concern. Those were the views of my
Grand Lodge. With much sadness and sorrow I understood for the first time that
these principles were discarded in any way whatever. The first moment I became'
acquainted with the facts I did all in my power to investigate them, and I
have made investigation and satisfied myself that our Order was not extended to
the negro in the same way that it was extended to the whites. I felt bound at
once to take constitutional means to remedy that evil, and in case that evil was not
remedied, I felt I could not remain in that Order which should persist in doing what
in my opinion was wrong. Very well; my Grand Lodge participated fully with me
in these views. The resolution was passed in our Grand Lodge, authorising the
representatives to R.W.G.L. to request that all distinction on account of race or
colour should be annihilated—that is, the literal translation of the word in the resolu¬
tion—so far as the Order is concerned ; and in case that body should not accede to
that just request of ours, that we were to withdraw and form ourselves into a provisional
court analogous to the R.W.G.L. We did that; and we have had the approval of
our Executives since our return ; we have had the opinion of the Press on the question;
we have had the opinion of the Lodges and Grand Lodges on the same question
without a single dissentient voice ; to a man they have endorsed what we have done.
Now, in the course we adopted at Louisville we carried out our principles fully ; we
were unable to throw open the door of the Order to all men, irrespective of colour,
race, or language; and I felt, and my constituency so far as I understand their
feelings feel, we should not be justified in effecting a reunion that would in any way
endanger the closing of the door. We are bound to the negro race; we are bouud
to our own convictions, to see that the order is extended to all men. We came to
this conference with a very sanguine hope that we should amicably settle this great
question. I abstained from speaking. I abstained from interrupting. Many remarks
were made with which I did not agree. Some imputations were thrown out that I did
not like. Still I kept silence during the whole of the discussion, observing the same rule
that I had observed at Louisville, when I spoke only for a few moments—not that
I did not feel, for I did, and do, feel intensely ; and I felt more intensely when I heard
remarks made out of harmony with my sentiment on this question. I kept silence
hoping our brethren would see the way to meet us in a fair manner. I came to this
conference again, gladly, when I found that Col. Hickman was prepared to meet us
and had proposals to offer. Now, we have been deliberating upon these proposals.
We have considered them in the most friendly manner. We have proved our dis¬
position to come to a settlement of this question by adopting the very proposals
submitted to us, although they were withheld from us for nearly t\yo days. I came
to this conference under some inconvenience. I attended the R.W.G.L. at some
inconvenience ; and I am here again, and have stayed till the last hour in the earnest
hdpe that we should settle the matter satisfactory to both sides. I was anxious we
should go back to our constituencies and say that the Order is virtually one all the
world over. I love this Order. It has done much good in my country; but I most
clearly state that if I had known all the facts connected with it, I would not have
been initiated into it at the first. I am quite certain that if all these facts were before
my countrymen in Wales, it would be a barrier in the way of the Order; and as soon
as they found out those facts they would say they would have no complicity, "clear
us immediately, or we will say we are not Templars if that be Good Templary.' We
will join the Order as a mission to extend the blessings of temperance to every
man all over the world." I am returning home with sad feelings indeed, very sad
indeed, having spent three days discussing this question ; having come so near to a
final settlement, and at the very close of it our friends at the other side of the table
tell us they will have only unconditional surrender on our part.
Dr. Oronhyatekiia : I object to the words.
Mr. Morgan explained : What I mean by that is, that we shall not be allowed
to consult our constituencies as to the terms ; that we must now at once fall in and
96
THIRD DAY.
come to terms ; that we have no alternative in question, but are bound to recogni se
the fact as set forth on the other side that the lodges are Col. Hickman's.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We have made no such declaration, that you are to come
at once without consulting your constituency ; for I distinctly stated, that when we
said " immediate reunion," we meant such reasonable time as the case would
demand. There could be no objection>if a reasonable time were allowed.
Mr. Morgan : Then I submit that what we asked was a " reasonable time."
Mr. Turnbull : Mr. Morgan is putting the interpretation which the brethren
on this side put on the words " immediate reunion."
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And when I got up to explain, I said it did not mean
now, at once, but such reasonable time.
Mr. Gladstone : May I call the attention of the conference to the fact that, in
submitting the statement, I was authorised to state as one reason why we could not
comply with the terms, that we had to consult the Grand Lodges affected, not only
our British Grand Lodges, but the Grand Lodges working under the R.W.G.L. of
the World. And when the Doctor aslced if no other time could be fixed than May, I
intimated we reckoned May to be the proper time, as the annual sessions were fixed
then, but that if we could arrange it sooner I should be glad. There are only six
months between now and May.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : This point should not be forgotten. Bro. Gladstone
intimated to me that the R.W.G.L. of the World must be consulted, not the Grand
Lodges, to which we could have had no possible objection ; and I said, personally I
did in no manner recognise the existence of a body such as the R.W.G.L. of the
World in these negotiations, but I recognised the gentlemen opposite me as the
representatives of the Grand Lodge jurisdictions involved.
Mr. Malins : I have signed the documents received and entertained as R.W.G.S.
of the World. ■
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I quite understand that; and I said we waived those
technical objections, so as to place nothing in the "way of effecting reunion ; we would
waive all technical objections ; but we do not recognise the existence of a R.W.G.L.
of the World.
Mr. Malins : Nor do I recognise the R.W.G.L. except in the same sense that
you waive the technicalities, and so we meet on equal ground.
Mr. Morgan : Dr. Oronhyatekha's explanation fully substantiates me. Had I
not understood that we were meeting here on perfectly equal terms, we as representing-
the R. W. G. L. of the World, and the gentlemen opposite as representing the R. W. G. L.
of Col. Hickman, I emphatically tell you and the other gentlemen of the conference,
I would not have troubled myself to come. But the statement of Dr. Oronhyatekha,
immediately our last document was handed in, was verbally that he held that all the
lodges who were in our jurisdiction were rebels.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Oh no !
Mr. Morgan : That is my view. I do not state that you said so.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I hope you will confine yourself to facts, so that we may
not be annoyed and have to correct. I said the lodges you represent had] gone out
of the Order and are not rebels.
Mr. Pyper : You said they were disloyal.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I never said "loyal" ones.
Mr. Morgan : But Dr. Oronhyatekha has said that all the lodges here are under
the jurisdiction of Col. Hickman.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I beg to correct that statement also.
Mr. Gladstone : I would emphasise the correction. I think Bro. Morgan is
slightly Misunderstanding the point; for the Doctor says the lodges have gone out of
the Order. " We are not loyal, for we are out of the Order."
Mr. Malins : That we are not even Good Templars !
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I will repeat that the lodges which have declared allegiance
THIRD DAY.
to the R.W.G.L. of the World have gone out of the I.O.G.T, Now, then, I
have not
Mr. Malins : I object to any illustration. He has repeated the statement.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I am not illustrating. I have not used the term "disloyal.''
Mr. Malins : If we are out of the Order, then we cannot be disloyal!
Mr. Pyper : He said last night that the lodges under Col. Hickman are the only
" loyal " lodges. A negative implies a positive. In my opinion Dr. Oronhyatekha's
remarks would never hasten reunion, interrupting a speaker like Bro. Morgan on
points like these, when he knows that he calls us inside and outside by implication
disloyal.
The Chairman : It is a pity Bro. Morgan should make any remark about any
member of the conference.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I know Bro. Pyper last night gave us a disquisition on
the term " loyalty," for which I was much obliged, as I did not know what it meant.
I never knew what it was derived from. Now I appeal to the conference whether I
used the term loyalty in any offensive sense. I only used the term " loyal lodges "
as applying to those who had given their allegiance to the R.W.G.L. to distinguish
them, and not as a distinction to say that the others were rebels and disloyal.
Mr. Morgan : All your explanations come to the same point that I was arriving
at. Dr. Oronhyatekha has admitted all that I want him to admit. If we were
outside, why did we come here?
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We wanted you to come back into the Order.
Mr. Morgan : Then had we broken our obligation, and should we have to be
initiated ? I am here to say I have not violated my obligations in sub-lodge, or as
Degree Templar, or as a member of the Grand Lodge. I have violated no obliga¬
tion, not even that of the R.W.G.L. of the World ; and I ask you how it is I should
be called " out of the Order " when I am in the Order; and if that position had been
assumed by the friends on the other side, I have not come here as a subordinate,
but to discuss the terms with you on an equal ground on fair terms. And now,
I understood that Col. Hickman was prepared to negotiate with us as in a friendly
manner, regarding us as a party in this affair; but if we are outside of the Order, we
are no party, and it is the business of these good gentlemen to institute lodges of the
true Order of Good Templars. But they have not convinced me and my constituency
in Wales which remains true to the body and the fundamental principles of the Order.
Colonel Hickman rose, but
Mr. Kempster objected : Are we to have replies and speeches from each of the
other side ?
Mr. Gladstone : I wish a personal explanation. I have a special privilege to
ask from the brethren at the close. It is nothing connected with the discussion. It
is a letter which I have to submit.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I shall not make a speech again. I say I give notice
now that I shall not rise again to correct misstatements as to myself; so if they are
made and go uncorrected, it will be in consequence of my determination no longer to
continue this squabble.
Mr. Kempster : I object to that word.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I retract the word. So far as I am concerned, the
moment the question of reunion had been settled no matters of detail should be
allowed to stand in the way. The questions addressed to you last evening as to
minor matters were that we might distinctly understand what was before us. But
had you agreed that reunion should take place, and when I say "now," I mean
just what I said I meant a short time ago, "within a reasonable time.'1
Mr. Kempster : How long ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha: A reasonable time, to consult your Grand Lodges, if
you had no authority. But it will not take six months to consult your Grand Lodges.
Mr. Gladstone : I wish to ask, to prevent dispute, does the Doctor mean simply
the British Grand Lodges, or, what we mean, all the Grand Lodges working under
H
THIRD. DAY.
the jurisdiction of the R.W.G.L. of the World; for I may intimate it would take
pretty nearly six months to communicate with those brethren and get their decision ;
New Zealand, for instance.
Mr. Harding : New Zealand is not working under your R. W .G. L. of the World.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : We would not have allowed matters of detail to stand in
the way of consummating our union.
Mr. Turnbull : Is not that a matter of detail, the time required to consult the
constituencies ?
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I regret personally that we have not consummated union,
and I trust that, if within any time the brethren on the other side are authorised to
consummate the union, they will not hesitate to communicate with us, because we
shall be ready to-morrow, next day, next month, or next year, whenever you are
ready, to consummate this reunion. We shall be ready, and shall be glad. We only
regret we cannot do it now, to-morrow, or the next day. But bear, this in mind,
whenever you have a mind to consummate this reunion with us, we are ready at any
time, and gladly will we take you back ! (A laugh.)
Mr. Daniel : As we have been declared out of the Order, on what terms can
we repent? Would I be admitted as G.W.C.T. of my lodges, or should I have to
be re-initiated and pass through my degrees ? I think it is important that should go
on the record, so that we may know how we stand.
Mr. Malins : The brother would be admitted to the lodge that is acknowledged
by his Grand Lodge and by his R.W.G.L. !
Dr. Oronhyatekha : There is much merriment in the discovery that the
brothers have made that they are out of the Order.
Mr. Gladstone: We have made no such discovery. It is the Doctor that has
found that out.
Mr. Daniel : We never said the Doctor was out of the Order. I told Col.
Hickman yesterday, when introduced, that I was glad to meet him, , but sorry it was
under such circumstances. So far as we are concerned we have never said what has
been said of us on the other side.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I ask Bro. Daniel as G.W.C.T. of the English Grand
Lodge of Wales
Mr. Daniel : But we have met before. You must answer my question first.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: I would ask Bro. Daniel as G.W.C.T.
Mr. Malins : If he is out of the Order, he is not G.W.C.T.
The Chairman : If these remarks are to be bandied about it will result in any¬
thing but pleasant feelings by-and-bye.
Mr. Kempster : I am sorry these remarks are made. There has been nothing
bitter between the sides.
The Chairman : And jocular remarks are out of place.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I have no control over them if the brethren will make
them,
Mr. Daniel : I have no desire to indulge in any jokes.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I desire to ask Bro. Daniel, G.W.C.T. of the English
Grand Lodge of Wales, if he did not declare at his Grand Lodge session that if Col.
Hickman, or any of the representatives of the R.W.G.L. came, he would have
declared a recess before they could be received.
Mr. Malins : They had not the password.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : And if he did so declare, and was not out of the Order,
then clearly the view was that Col. Hickman was out of the Order.
Mr. Daniel : I have no difficulty in answering that question. But before
answering it I would like to remark that the Doctor, after asking the question, pro¬
ceeds to illustrate in his own way. I do not agree with his way or mode of argument.
I should like that to be put down first of all. So far as Col. Hickman is concerned,
I wrote a letter to the R.W.G.S. of the World, asking him to see that when the
THIRD DAY.
99
proper time came an invitation should be sent to Col. Hickman, as a gentleman and
a brother whom I had always respected, at the earliest possible moment, adding that
he would be welcomed to Haverfordwest, and if he came there I should use my
influence with the brothers of my Grand Lodge to get him an opportunity of addressing
the members in recess. ^ But I would say it would have afforded much more pleasure
to see him introduced with all the honours of his high position. Allow me to say I
only wish it were possible for us to get hold of Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha,
and the other gentlemen associated with them, to prove to them that our deliverance
last night was an honest and conscientious deliverance, with a view not to slight them,
but really to effect a permanent and lasting reunion.
Dr. Oronhyatekha rose to make a remark.
Mr. Pyper : Is it convenient that Dr. Oronhyatekha should speak so often, when
others scarcely have had an opportunity ?
Mr. Daniel : In this instance it is my fault.
Dr. oronhyatekha: As to the question of union or disunion. If you are
not out of the Order, or we, we would not have been here in conference to reunite.
There is a separation affirmed by yourself, and you have organised a supreme body.
You declare there are two supreme bodies. There cannot be two R.W.G. Lodges,
or two R.W.G. Templars, in the same Order. Therefore, as there are two R.W.G.
Templars, one or the other must have gone out of the Order. Now, I am honest
when I say I regard you as having gone out of the Order. Having gone out, you
ask on what terms we will receive you back. On the same terms that you went out.
We will reinstate you in the positions you vacated by the course you took.
Mr. Gladstone : I want to put to Col. Hickman a thing personal to myself,
and to say that I cannot part from those on the other side without saying that I
heartily reciprocate the kindly expressions received from you and the others.
Mr. Pyper : I hope whatever pleasant thing Bro. Gladstone says should be at
the close. I shall want to say a few words.
Mr. Gladstone: I referred to it in the R.W.G.L., and I said at the first
chance I would read this letter in your hearing and that of the others. I announced
the action, and from yourself I received thanks at the R.W.G.L. It is simply to
indicate, not to vindicate, my position ; to indicate the kindly feeling I have to-day,
that I had at the beginning, to many brethren with whom it has been my pleasure
to meet and labour; that at the time our manifesto was about being issued and
noticed it was to be printed in the public papers. I want you to see the kind
of spirit shown. It was written to Bro. Malins, and is as follows :—
"Office of Grand Worthy Chief Templar,
Govan, December 17th, 1875.
" Dear Sir and Brother,
"I see from the Watchword that it is proposed to publish the manifesto on the
negro question. I have thought much on the subject, having purposed to write on it for
our magazine. But the more I think the more persuaded I am that such a course would
be injurious. Depend on it our enemies would wrest it to our hurt, and imischievously
so. It is hardly fair too to blazon to the world business not yet disposed of by our Order.
If we have to break off or anything of that kind, then we should give a reason to the
world for doing so. But just now the business belongs to the Order and should be
sacredly confined to it. Assume that the R.W.G.L. decides all right—and publishing
the manifesto will hardly conduce to that,—we shall have created a real prejudice
against it on the part of many. It seems to me, that so far as our jurisdictions go,
we have done all that we ought to in having submitted the whole matter to
our Grand Lodges. All that remains to be done is to put the matter before
other Grand Lodges. I trust, my dear Brother, that you will give this your earnest
consideration. It is, I think, very important. The contemplated action would be
very imprudent; and should you decide still to publish it, then I must crave the
100
THIRD DAY.
deletion of my name, and the insertion of a note at the foot to the effect that
as R.W.G. Chaplain and as G.W.C.T. of Scotland, and whilst approving of the
manifesto itself, I protest against the publishing of it as making public private
business of the R.W.G.L. on which that body has not finally adjudicated. Think
carefully of this, and let me know your decision. I feel strongly.
" Fraternally yours,
"G. Gladstone."
Bro. Malins received that letter and sent copies to the Watchword, and it went to
Bro. Curtice and he withdrew it.
Mr. Capper : All we have had since the last document was read was simply to
get a number of speeches on the papers placed on the minutes of this meeting.
The Chairman : I cannot think this.
Mr. Daniel : I desire to ask whether the expressions of Bro. Capper are endorsed
by the gentlemen on that side.
Mr. Harding : Yes, I want to go.
Mr. Daniel : I do not think Col. Hickman and Dr. Oronhyatekha have
endorsed them.
Mr. M'Donald : I ask Bro. Capper to withdraw them.
Mr. Capper : It is an expression of my own opinion.
Mr. Kempster : We have no objection to that ; Bro. Capper, of course, has
great weight in this country, and we desire that to go on the record ! (Laughter.)
Col. Hickman : These personalities should not go on. I find I have to make
some arrangements, and just want to say a word before I leave. The responsibility
of not having reunion, you say, will be with us. I must emphatically say not, if the
basis of reunion is acceptable to you who represent your several Grand Lodges. It
ought to be acceptable to them, for the principle you contend for is found in the basis
of reunion, as you admit it is. Then why defer reunion ? Because when that is
settled, your members have only to resume their positions in the Order. If you
trust us to cany out this, not a single day is necessary to complete reunion, if all your
Grand Lodges will accept it. When you say you will consult your jurisdictions, you
have no jurisdictions to consult; for in one of them the opinion of the G.W.S. is just
the reverse of that stated by its G.W.C.T. in the Watchword.
Mr. Malins : I am unconscious of any Grand Lodge on the face of the globe
outside of North America, except Cape Colony, that stands for Col. Hickman at this
moment. In Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, we have had Grand Lodges
declare since the separation for the R.W.G.L. of the World,
Col. Hickman : What Grand Lodge in America?
Mr. Malins : Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.
Col. Hickman : Are those in America proper?
Mr. Kempster : Bro. Malins spoke geographically.
Col. Hickman : There are five officers in the Grand Lodge of Nova Scotia
asking me to place a deputy there. These remote Grand Lodges have decided to
wait for full and further information.
Mr. Malins : That is Australia. I said Europe, Asia, Africa, and America.
Can that be refuted ?
Col. Hickman : Your charters are issued by our authority.
Mr. Malins : That I dispute.
Col. Hickman : You did not issue them.
Mr. Malins : But the R.W.G.L. did.
Col. Hickman : And yet you ask me to withhold my authority over the
jurisdictions that have been granted charters by that body whom I represent. There¬
fore, brethren, it would be not only unwise, as it seems to me, speaking from my
standpoint, that I for a moment should be required to declare an amnesty, and lay
down my rightful authority over the Grand Lodges that were put into legal existence
by the body I represent. I cannot for one moment think you would ask me to do
such a thing; and yet you do.
Mr. Kempster : No ; we ask for an armistice.
Col. Hickman : Call it what you please.
Mr. Kempster : We are quite agreed on the term. It is the right word.
Mr. Gladstone : It is quite right.
Col. Hickman : And now, since that cannot be the case, and the principle is
admitted as satisfactory, where is the difference between you, and what is the reason
we cannot be reunited without referring this back? Now the responsibility of non-
reunion rests with you. I say, in addition, you cannot go from here and say I do not
desire it.
Mr. Malins : Yes; you desire it, if we will surrender it at once.
Col. Hickman : So far as personal matters are concerned, I only viewed the
matter from a legal point of view, and you would have as warm a place at my hearth¬
stone as any in the world. I am for the Order; and in any way in this world that is
right and honourable, and in my power and my position, that I can see my way
clear, I am willing to go to the extent of it to promote reunion. You say you cannot
see it in that way. I do. I express what I believe in the sight of God is right. I
fall not out with you. It makes me sad you cannot see as I do. I have not lost
hope of reunion. I expect to be on British soil a long while. I have to work in the
interests of the cause of temperance, and it must be remembered there have been
charters which were granted under the Grand Lodge of England, whose Grand Lodge
charter was granted by the body whom I represent, and had not their charters with¬
drawn, because they remained in obedience to my body. I propose to give these all
the legal protection I can. You don't fall out with me for that.
Mr. Gladstone : Certainly not.
Col. Hickman : And I say, if you cannot work harmoniously with us in the
Order I represent, if you find your consciences will not permit it with a separate
Order, I will co-operate with you as strongly to extend the principles of temperance.
But what we contend is this: Having issued all these charters and the unwritten work,
it is not right, according to my views, to say you have the 'Order and keep that which
we issued, and say we are outside the Order, as has been said. No one will deny
that. We contend simply for our rights, and the moment that your allegiance to the
R. W.G.L. is shown us, that moment are we an united body. Now, I am only ex¬
pressing what I believe in the law. I am open to conviction if I am wrong. If any
man will show me in error, I will acknowledge it. But it is said sometimes we are
akin to our English cousins, and are hot-headed and stubborn. You cannot drive
Englishmen anymore than Irishmen. You can do much with me if you speak kindly.
To malice I would never yield. I yield to all but that. And in all that we do from
an official and legal standpoint. I trust nothing of a personal character or un¬
friendly feeling will exist. (" Hear, hear.")
Mr. Pyper : Allow me to say that we who have taken this stand have precisely
the same feelings that Col. Hickman has, a desire for reunion for the good of the
temperance cause, a desire for the promotion of the good of the Templar Order.
Col. Hickman speaks of us as outside the Order, as Dr. Oronhyatekha does. Well,
I am satisfied.
Colonel Hickman : I give no decision upon that at all. Those are matters for
the R.W.G.T.
Mr. Pyper: It is said the onus of responsibility rests on the brethren on this side.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Certainly.
Mr. Pyper : We say that they say Col. Hickman tells us the basis of reunion
has been accepted by us, and is said to be sufficient. We do say the basis proposed
by Col. Hickman is a sufficient basis for reunion; but if things had been right there
would have been no necessity for making such proposals as these, because they implied
that something was wrong. What was wrong was, practically, that -the negroes were
excluded from the Order.
102
THIRD DAY.
Mr. Malins : In the Southern States of America.
Mr. Pyper : But Col. Hickman admitted that practically negroes were not ad¬
mitted into the Order in the Southern States. I should be glad if he can prove that they
were admitted freely into the Order into the Southern States. But it was never denied
that practically they were excluded from the Order in the Southern States.
Mr. Malins : That statement they denied constantly.
Mr. Pyper : That contradiction, then, will go like the rest. It is a matter
of fact reiterated in the discussion that in several States negroes were kept out of the
Order. It was because we felt this so strongly we could not remain. There was no
other cause. And so, when that cause is removed by the proposals made by Col.
Hickman, we are glad to reunite with them ; but we cannot do it on the basis now
required. There must be some little time allowed. We specify six months, and if
a shorter time could do we are prepared to accept that. It surprises us now to hear
Col. Hickman is attempting to deny that negroes were practically excluded because
of the strong prejudice existing against their admission into the Order. The fact was
admitted by Col. Hickman, and he tells us that he himself had this prejudice strongly
till a year or more ago, that he has grown up into the Christian light and got on a
higher Christian platform.
Col. Hickman : I was in the Christian light just as well in my early education as
at any other time.
Mr. Pyper : I say nothing against your Christianity as Christianity. But Col.
Hickman's education had not been our education on this point. He had been
educated differently. He had changed his mind by getting more light; and he now
asks us to, believe his professions as sincere, since he came to the higher Christian
light.
Mr. Kempster : It is as well we have the denial as to having the higher Chris¬
tian life.
Mr. Pyper : In all sincerity I accept that statement, and I feel thankful to God
th£|.t Col. Hickman, as a brother, man, and a Christian, has come up to that higher
platform ; and I prayed that all the Southerners would soon come up to that higher
Christian platform, Then there would be no cause for separation. It is on these
grounds alone that the Grand Lodge of Ireland topic the stand. It has been said
there were other motives actuating Bro. Malins in separating from the other body.
But no one can say that our (Ireland) motives were different, or that other motives
actuated the brethren in Wales or Scotland. It pained us to the heart to think of
separation. I was accustomed to look upon unity as one of the glories of the Order,
and I was referring to the fact that when such men as Hastings, Chase, Neal Dow,
Black, belonged to it, nothing hurt me more than to think of disunion. But our
obligation was to abide by the decision of the R. W.G.L., they " not conflicting with
our duties as citizens or Christians." If there was any case in the history of any
R.W.G.L. of this or that Order, that justified members holding such views as to re¬
main in connection with the body when we found out that our fellowmen were
excluded practically from the Order, and that the law was not put into into effect, the
record has not weakened my opinion on that point. When Col. Hickman issued his
manifesto I accepted it in good faith, and was delighted with the prospect as the
expressed opinion of the officers of the Southern States, and I believed their influence
might be so great that they would constrain the Grand Lodges to go in with them, and
that soon the Southern States would be as open to the negro as England, or Wales,
or Ireland, and therefore there was no reason for separation. Then in that sense we
accepted this as a basis for reunion, and we only ask for a reasonable time to effect it.
But to tell us that we are outside the Order, and that we cannot come in again on
equal terms with the others, we say we have as much right, and we stand by the
principles of the Order, and therefore as we received the charters, we hold them on the
same principles on which we received them. And this is our contention. We may
be right or wrong. But at the proper time there will be a proper opportunity for
debating it. I think we can leave it at present. I wish it to be noted here, that to
tell us in this conference that that is the position in which they look upon us is not
facilitating or hastening the progress of reunion. It is the very reverse. It is not
our fault if reunion is not effected at the earliest possible moment. .We were
THIRD DAY.
n I mS to^)e separated; and, as soon as we can do it, we would reunite on a fair
a onourable basis, honourable to all. But to virtually surrender our position would
e no honourable. We can surrender nothing. But as soon as the brethren will
acce e^ o it in the same spirit that we have done we will reunite, and then go home
and rejoice m the progress of the Order.
Mr. Stockbridge : One word. You are going out of London. There is only
one brother in London ^ on the other side, Bro. Kempster. I want to say to my
brethren on the other side one word. There is Bro. Malins. I have been in the
Order and have been a faithful steward. Now, there is this bone of contention. I will
assume, as a lawyer would, the facts of the case. The bone of contention is the
admission of the negro. The very gentlemen who went to the R.W.G.L. on behalf
of their Grand Lodge jurisdictions are present at this conference. They had the
support of their Grand Lodges. I speak for London ; and am assuming all the facts
against me. You went there with their support.
Mr. Kempster : With instructions.
Mr. Gladstone : We are only a part, a very small part, of those who were at
Louisville.
Mr. Stockbridge : You went with instructions. That being so, you elected tc>
take a course, rightly or wrongly.
Mr. Gladstone : We did not elect to take that course. We followed the
course dictated to us. That is a very different thing.
Mr. Stockbridge : I mean that you were the advocates of a certain line of
policy. In this conference I am instructed to take a certain line of policy, to do all
I can to effect reunion-
Mr. Malins : Instructed by whom ?
Mr. Stockbridge : By a small body of Londoners. You knew the cause, and
you now know the remedy suggested. As honourable men you have accepted the
proposals, and believed in the integrity of the promises submitted. I am satisfied
your Grand Lodges know what the bone of contention was. You go back and tell
them that it has been removed, and the obstacle got rid of. I believe your individual
executives can do it without waiting for the Grand Lodges, because they have sup¬
ported you ; and when you went to your jurisdictions to dissolve that important body,
they would backup that support if you will tell them you have done—what ? Not created
a furtherance of the quarrel, but healed up the strife. I ask whether you cannot
individually, as brother G.W.C.T.s, take upon yourselves this important responsibility.
It would be more easy thus to consolidate matters. I appeal to you to see if you
cannot put an end to the strife.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : I suggest we should now close.
Col. Hickman : I want to correct Bro. Stockbridge.
Mr. Malins : I should like to correct Bro. Stockbridge also.
Mr. Morgan : I have a motion to submit, that the reporters furnish transcript
of their notes to Mr. W. Hoyle alone, and that he be authorised to superintend the
printing of the same.
Mr. Gladstone : To-day's notes should go to Bro. Prichard.
Mr. Morgan altered his motion to read " to the Chairmen alone," &c.
Mr. Pyper seconded, as amended, and it was agreed to.
Mr. Daniel : I should like to speak. I have expressed myself pretty freely,
but at present I have only a desire to state that I heartily endorse every expression of
regret made on this side of the house. I endorse what has been said by Bros.
Kempster, Pyper, Malins, and Morgan this afternoon; and I have only to express
my own deep regret that we have not been able to unite, as I certainly hoped
on Thursday we should have done. Col. Hickman will be coming in our juris¬
diction, and I shall not be able to receive him in the same way as if we had
parted on other terms. I am sorry for this ; and I am sure, in expressing my own
views on the subject, I would also express the views of many others. I have only to
add that, so far as I am personally concerned, I think the best thing we can do at
104
THIRD DAY.
the present moment is to bring the conference to as speedy a conclusion as possible,
and though I should like to have spoken at some length, I must entrust all to what
has been said by my brethren.
Mr. Malins moved a vote of thanks to the Chairman : Last night my heart was
full of joy. I was on the point of framing a telegram declaring union certain, and the
brethren associated with me know that in a moment, without a moment's hesitation,
I signed a document, which would prove to all the world, if proof were wanting,
that the negro difficulty is the only difficulty that keeps me from my brethren. I
deeply regret we have not an armistice of six months, with a view to certain and per¬
manent reunion. The position the Colonel takes is one we can never admit—that
he shall continue on a war-footing, with power to make war upon our outworks
during the time we stand pledged at six months' time to reunite with him. It may
be logical from his standpoint; but we have a standpoint to maintain, and from
ours it is impossible for him to be making war upon us and for us to be pledged to
peace with him. We to-night represent only a portion—not more than half
certainly, of the Grand Lodges that are associated absolutely and completely with
the R.W.G.L. of the World. Not nearly half of those who have pledged themselves
beforehand to our manifesto, if they are added to the Grand Lodges that actually
stand under us, have been since conferred with, and in honour we are bound to them,
and cannot at once precipitately disown the R. W.G.L. of the World, in an
hour without respect to those others who nobly stood out with us, and with whom we
are bound to move, and not without them.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : Have you received any communication from the G.W.S.
of Nova Scotia urging speedy reunion ?
Mr. Malins: I have not. I have been from the office several days. I should
not wonder if one has come.
Dr. Oronhyatekha: The communication would have been sent in July.
Mr. Malins: I will close with expressing astonishment that those in this
country who have given us so much trouble in complaining that we did not put
this thing before our Grand Lodge, and that we did not consult our subordinate
lodges before we separated, should urge to-night that we should close up without
reference either to Grand Lodge, District Lodge, or sub-lodge. The Colonel posi¬
tively declines an armistice whilst we consult them. We thought we met, if necessary
to reunion, to step down somewhat from our positions that that reunion might take
place. I now move a vote of thanks to the Chairman with great pleasure. A more
gentlemanly opponent I have never met with than Bro. Prichard. He is a con¬
scientious, honest man, I feel persuaded.
Col. Hickman : I take great pleasure in seconding the motion. I have not had
the pleasure of knowing our Chairman so long, but I assure you that my intercourse
with him has been most pleasant, and I feel I have been greatly benefited by my
association with him. I trust I shall feel I have been benefited by my association
with all my brethren here, whether on my side of the question or the other. The
remarks of Bro. Pyper in relation to my Christian position in the higher life as
mentioned, was not, as I understood, when I stated my position, because in the times
of slavery I never saw when God brought me to realise that he had for Christ's sake
pardoned my sins, that I was willing to aid the coloured men. I have always been
in that position since I arrived at the age of majority, or became accountable.
Besides the remarks made in our document presented to you, there was the admission
of the principle you contended for at Louisville. I say again, brethren, on the floor of
the R.W.G.L. pledged the same thing that we offered you last night; and I said to
Bro. Malins that if it were true I would prove it : " Let this matter lie over another
year and with my influence that I thought I had over the Southern people I thought
I could pledge him that things would come in accordance with that which was right.
I am sorry he referred to it, for I did not like to say anything about these questions
again. I am not going to continue my remarks. I do not say all the delegates of
the Southern Grand Lodges made these promises, but some of them did.
Mr. Gladstone : Would Col. Hickman name anyone who expressed the consent
of any Southern Grand Lodge to allow the R.W.G.L. to mission the negroes?
THIRD DAY,
Col. Hickman : Bro. Baine, of Kentucky, was ope.
. , Mr. gladstone : It must have been after I left. I did hear Tim Needham
pledge himself to have the word taken out of the constitution, but he added that it
would make no difference, as the negroes would not come in any the more.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : You would have known if we had had a hearing at the
Masonic Temple.
Mr. Malins : And we were ready to hear you.
Dr. Oronhyatekha : As friends only.
Mr. Malins : Yes, as we receive you now. We would have constituted a
meeting for the purpose. When Tim Needham was asked if striking out the word
"white" would admit the negro in Kentucky, he said, "No, not for one hundred
years."
Col. Hickman : Well, it seems we won't come to any understanding, and if I
say anything else in this connection it will only agitate.
Mr. Malins put the vote of thanks, which was unanimously accorded.
The Chairman : Thank you. I shall always continue to feel the highest regard
for Bro. Malins and all those associated with him. It has given me the greatest pain
to think that anything in the slightest degree has arisen to prevent reunion. I trust
we still shall become reunited. One remark as to Bro. Hoyle. I am extremely
sorry he was not here; because I am afraid the discussion has been somewhat informal
on my account.
The minutes were read and signed by the Secretary, and the conference
terminated with prayer by the Rev. G. Gladstone, about 7 40 p.m.
A. Ireland and Co., Printers, Pall Mall, Manchester.