^ J Si 6 £ ^*» ■ 3 cd SB ft _l ta r- « g ti -»-' w O k. 3 ^ g to W M o ^ « ■P 5« *»• ?> +■* & _0> .a 3 3 % **£ ~o o CJ &i >* ** Vf 4£ '<#) Sc £ 11 ISO y ~~^ \the atui'k' Succeffivc VI Jricc? — e-F THE 3^ CHURCH OF Which the Protestants v are the founder! Members. I. Defended againft the Oppofidon of Mr. William febxfcr,. I L Proved by many Arguments, By Richard (Baxter. Whereto is added* I. An account of my judgment to Mi . J. boTvf.u Heretic fa aie or are not in the Church. 2. &tr. ]'. Explication of the moft uftd terms ^ with my Qh'ic'j thereupon, and his An fivers and my 'Qeply* 2. /in Appcndi- about fuccejfive Ordination. ~ Lett 1 1 i between me, and T. S. a l J apift> with a Narrd- tive of the fuccefs. LONDON, Printed by J?. W. for Nevil Simw oris Book- fejler in Kederminfter, and are to be fold by Francis Tjton at the thred Daggers in fleet- ftreet. 1660. V i CD The Preface. Reader, F thou meet me at the threfholdwich a ' W7;;zt need any more agair,jl P perj then is written ? I mull anfwer thee, \ No need, if all that is alrea- dy written , were im- proved. Nor were there need of any writings, if men would not renounce they: common fenfes. We cannot hope or pre- tend, by any writings, to bring any contro- verfieto a plainer, becter if tie, then to re- folve it by the judgement of the common fenfes of all the world; and yet this doth not end the controversies between us and the Papills ^ whether Bread be Bread, and Winebz trine 7 whzn they are fcen,felt,taft- A 3 cd, (O ecL &c. But foine writings are ufcfuU to awake men to the ule of JReafcn^rA to help them to improve their other helps. And, as Seveca laith, JMuttum cgcrmt qui ant* nos fnerunt •, fed non $ereger##t : fvfeifi- endi tarxen funt~] Though I thought! had jfaid enough before in three or four former writings, yet the weight of the Q^ueftion here debated , and the common ule thats made of it by the Papifts, have perfwaded me, that this alfo will be ufefull to the Church. And I rnuft confefs the moderation and ingenuity of the Gentleman that I contend with, did not only tempt me into the un- dertaking at the firft , but alfo did incline my thoughts to a publication ^ there being here 'noftinking breath to annoy anddriyg away the Reader. I have learned by expe- rience, that its only prudent, charitable, ftlf-denying, humble men, that are fit to be engaged in controversies. We bring fire to Gun-powder, when we deal with proud malignant wrerches, (fuch as I havelately had to do with,) that have fouls fofbr- faken,and confidences fo feared, as that they feemto make malicious lies, their glo- v and delight. Seme think that the eon- 'tending with fuch, i$a needfully though an unfavoury (3) mfavoury work : I confcfs.a Lyar Is not to be encouraged, nor our juft reputation to be prodigally caft away, or con tempt uoufly neglefted. Duo funt necejfaria^ faith Ah- guftine, ConfclentU & fama : Confcientia propter Deum • fama propter proximum* But for our /elves , Gods approbation is enough j and for others , if Duty fatisfte them not, contending will not. JSacchdt bacchanti Ji veils adverfarier , Ex injana infanioremfacies^ ferietftpus, faith Plaut. If Truth make blinded men our enemies, and the performance of our duty be our greateft crime, and no purgation be lefc us but by becoming erroneous or 'ungodly , its not worth our labour to word it with fuch men. Pride and Malice hearken not to Reafon ; Apologies will not cure the envy of a Cain y or the pride of a Diotrephes , or thehypbcrifie and perfecuting fury of a Pharifee. But ( as Auguft. ) Confcientiam walam laudantvs prtccnium non fanat^ncG bonam vulnerat convitiurn. 3 Praife healeth not an ill Conscience ^ and reproach cannot wound d goodone. Confcience refpefts a higher tribunal. Could a Calumniator be believed, it were a imall thing to be judge- cd by man : and A 4 CwfcU (4) ' ConfcU mens rcfti famt n fikteia ridet. But when they make themselves theob- Jefts" of the' common companion or deri- iion, they fpare me the labour of a con- futation; Its enough to fay with thePhilo- fopher, £ Ego fie vivam^ut nemo Mi credat~] \l will fo .live \ that no man (hall believe him •, 3 when they themfelves will fo He that no man ( or next to none ) fhall be- lieve them. Its a far more neceffary and profitable employment, to oppofe our Jins then om accufers^ and to fee that we are blamelefs, then that we are fo refuted : and to efcape the testations of Satan y rather then the calumnies of his instruments. Its better this wind offend our cars, then guilt. fhould wound our hearts. 'Penalty is hea- vier then injurious perfecution, tccaufeof its relation to guilt ; but culpability it fe!f is worfe then both. Jt&tia potefi demi; culpa perennis crlt. Afcrs fackt certe, uefim , cum veneriv^ exul. fSlenon peccdrew, mors qmq^ nonfaciet, *- . nd even when God hath fully pardoned us. (3) u$ i LittiYii fatten extat. A foul that knows the evil of fin , and feeth by fcith the dreadful! Majefty -," and the judgement to which he muft 'ftartd or fall, is taken up with greater cafe*, then the defence of his reputation with men - except as Gods ho- nour, or the good of fouls may be concern, ed in it. Another thing that encouraged me to this engagement was, that my Antagonift feemed exceeding defirous of a dofe fyl-lo- giftical way of arguing, which put me in hope of a fpeedier and better ifTue, then with wordy wandring Sophifters I could expert. I never liked , either the feafts that confilt of fawce and ceremony with little meat-, or the bawling rooks, th^t will not receive a bit without a troubisfcme noiie SedtticitHS pafci ft pojfet ccrviis^ hrferet Phis 3ia6U% & ?ix* multo minus: inyHi&b\ Nor the prodigal covetoufnefs thatturns the Cock when none requireth it { and plucks up the flood-gates, and fets the mill % going when there is no grift^ omnia vnlt diccre, & nihil at'.dirc. V/hen words are too cheap.it either proves- them (O them worthlefs, or makes them fo efteem- cd. Ihzfentencc of an Orator, and the ve- ry Syllables of a Difputant fhould be (hort. There (hould be no more dijhes then are ne- .ceflary for the meat: nor no more ftraw then isneceffary tofuftain the grain. Fru- gality of fpeecb ? and ferinonem habere rebus paremjdojhtw and wake our fpeeches valu- able. Truth would be adorned , but not covered : attended, but not crowded ; pro- claimed, but not buried in an heap of words. Arguments are like money, that is valuable according to the mettal and the weight, and not according to the number of pieces, or curiolicy of the ftamp. And a third thing that made me the willinger to this task , was ^ that the aflaults of Juglers, that thought to catch me under the names and mask of Seekers, Behmenifts, and fuch other fe&s, had pof fefled me with fo much indignation and diftafte , that I was glad to meet with a bare-fac't Papift, that was not afhamed of his Religion, but would profefs himfelf to be what he is. I could never hear that the Papifts won fo many, and fo confiderable perfons this threefcore years, by open deal- ings I have caufe to think they have won by fraud under the vizor of Seekers, and Sectaries, (7) Sectaries, within a few years paft. I fear no papifts, but Proteftant Papifts, chat come to Church, and take the paths of Suprema- cy and Allegiance, as many did the en- gagement but a while ago-, or that wear feme other vizor of diffimuiation. Hypo- crifie is nowhere fo odious as in Religion, where men have to do with a heart fetch- ing God, and deal in matters of everlafting confequence. He hath no Religion ■, that thinks it his duty to lie for his Religion, For he hath no Religion that believeth nc in God. And he that believeth him to be a Lover of Lies, believeth not that he is God. Verba (inq. Auguft.y propterea In- ftituta fi*nt , non pit per ea fe invicem homi- nes fallant^ fed ut eit qnifque in rtteriu* no- ticiam cogitationes f Has prof erat ,~\ Verbis ergo uti adfa/laciam, non adqnod fant inftituta^ feccatum eft. — -*- Lvnge tamen tclera- bilius eft) in his qua, h religione fidei fejun- lUzfunt mentiri, quant in his, &c. 3_T rut h is great, (and the greateft advantage to a Difputant:) and willatlaft prevail. Ly- ing is a remedy that needeth a remedy • eaf- ing for the time by palliation, but much increafmg the difeafe. " Magna eft viis Veritatis quA contra omnium ingenla, calli- ditatem > fohrtiam, contra fiftas hominum injidias. (S) infidias, facile fe per iff am defendit y faith Seneca. Three Queftiojis about Pppe&y bayeput thewqrldto.much difpute,, Qu. i". whe- ther it b$ the tight jwd .fafe j Religion ? 2. V/hethwit may he folerapcAi . -.5. TV/??- fAffi it be our dutytb enter , intp.recmciUation and communion with the Papift, (though not iubjeCtionJ andon what terms? The firft I have debated m this and divers oeh^r writings , ( viz. three Disputations, called the fafe Religkn, a Key for Catholikes, &:c. awhrtding'JJjeet for Popery, and the true Cathohke, and Cathe like Church dijeribed.) It is one of the reproaches of humane na- ture, that ever it could, be. corrupted into f j fenflefs, unreafonable., impious, uncharita- ble a thing as Popery : And one of the pro- digies of mifery, in the world,, that any fave one that Inguinis & capitis qua fmt difcri- minanefcit, ihould be*iully, and feriouflya Papift. But four things I find are the pillars of their Church, and propagates their corru- ptions.- 1. One is the love of themfelves and of the world in unfan&ified hearts : which makes them be of the Religion of their Rulers ; and refolve to be of no Re- ligion that fliall undo them in the world : And (9) And therefore to efcape reproach, and tor- ment, and death, they will do any thing, and as they fpeak^wilffrtf/? God with their fouls, rather then men with' ~ their bodies : The meaning is, they will rather venture on the wrath of God, thenoffadh^ and fave their bodies, then their fouls ; ahd fecure this life (as long as they can) then life everlafting. 2. Another is" Cuftom and Education , poflefling men with' blinding ftupifying pre- judice , together with. a' contempt of truth and happineft , that keepeth fluggifh fouls from that diligent fearch and tryal that is neceflary to a conqueft of that temptation, and to a faving entertainment of the truth. And the name and reverence of their fore- fathers, emboldeneth them againft the name and reverence of God. Adeb ct teneris tffu- efcere multum efi. Saith Seneca , inter caufas malar um eft quodvivimus ad exempla, nee ratione componimur, fed confuetudine ab- ducimurJ Qfod ft paucifacerent, nclumus imitari ; quum plures'facere caperunt, qua ft honeftiiu fit, quia frequentius fequimur, & retti apud nes locum ten'ef error, ubi publicus fattm eft. Not what God faith, but what wan doth, is made the rule of this humane apifh kind of Religion. And fo the Tyrant Cultom ruleth them ; £t graviffmum eft imperiam do) imperium confuetudinis^ Senec. Education difciplina meres facit : & id fapit mpifquif- que quod didicit : Id. 3. Another caufe is fuperftitious fears which the falfe doftrins of Purgatory, and no falvation out of their Church, &c. have cart into mens minds. The Priefts rule their fubjefts, as one of their Captains ruled the Thracians, by making ladders, and making tnem believe he would climb up to Juno to complain of them. 4. And it is not the leaft fupport of Po- pery, that it maketh light of heynous fins, is fornication, drunkennefs, fwearing, for- fwcaring, lying, equivocation, &c. and pro- videth for them the eafie remedies of con- feflion, and fuch gentle pennance as the fa - gacious tradable Prieft fhall impofe. But holy water will not wafh out their fpots. God judgeth not as the pope or Mafs Prieft. Let no man deceive you ^ith vain words : for fuch things t (as fornication, uncleannefs^ fil- ihinefs,foolijh talking, &cj cometh the wrath cf Cjod on the children of dif obedience, Eph. 5. 3,5,6. For all the flatteries of indulgences, and pardons, and the name of Venial fin, yet tonfeience hath not pardoned all that is par- doned by the Pope, And, Prima prima eft h*c Piltio, quodfe ftidice nemo weens abjolvitur And its no great eafc to have an external pardon, and neither an Eternal , nor Inter* %*l ^ but Nctte diequefuum geftart inpeBore teftew. How many nuift be damned by Chrift , that were pardoned by the Vice- chrift. £lt4. 2. And for the fecond Queftion, about the Toleration of Popery, let him that defireth it, but procure a Toleration of the Proteftant Profeffion in Spain, Italy, Bava- ria, j4t,>J formethuptheribj the Hodge-podge of Po- pery, they feem mt to fmile at, nor be afiamed (ai) cf m* do of the Pitture which they have drawn^which is y of an Harlot fhewing her nakednefs, and committing her lewdnefs in the of en AJfem- blies, in the ficrht of the Sun. They openly proclaim their {hame againfi the light of all the acknowledged Principles in the World, their owner others, and in oppojiti&n to all y or almoft all that is commendable among men. The charge feems high, but ( in afeV9 words) take the proof. J. They confefs the Scripture to be the Word of God : find yet Vvhen we would appeal to that as the Rule of Faith and Life, or as a divine Revelation, in our Difputes, they fly off, and tell us of its obfeurity, and the necef- ftty of a fudge. If they meet with a Hoc eft corpus meum, they feem for a while to be zealous for the Scripture : But tell them that Paul in i Cor. 1 1 . 26, 27, 28. doth call it Bread after the Confecration, nolefs than three times in the three next Verfes, and then Scripture isnon-fenfe to them till the Pope wake fenfe of it. It is one of their principal labours againfi us, to argue againfi the Scrip- tures fufftciency to thisufe. By no means can we prevail with them to ft and to the Decijion of the Scripture. 2. They exceffively cry up the Church 3 and appeal to its Decijion ; and therefore we might hope, 07) hope, that here if anywhere , we might have fome hold of them. But -when it comes to the Point ^they not only difownthe judgement of the Churchy but impudently call Chrift's Spoufe a Strumpet, and cut off ( in their n>% - charitable imagination) two or three parts of the univerfal Church as Hereticks or Schif- maticks. The judgement of the Churches in Armenia, Ethiopia , Egypt, Syria, the Greeks, and many more be fides the Reformed Churches in the Weft, is againfi their Popes univerfal Vicarfhip or Soveraignty , and many of their Errours that depend thereon : And yet their judgement is not regarded by this FatHon. And if a third or fourth part ( fuchas it is) of the Univerfal Church, way cry up themfelvei as the £hurch to be appealed to, and condemn the far greater part \ Vvhy may not a tenth or a twentieth part do the like ? Why may not the Donariits , the Novatians, or the Greeks {much more) do fo at ??f//^Papifts? 3. They cry np Tradition. And when we ask^them, Howwe Jh,ill know it , and Where it is to be found, they tell ns, principally in the profeffion andprallice of the frefent Church. . And yet when two or three farts of the uni- verfal Church profefs that Tradition is againfi the Papal Monarchy, and ether Pants ( a 3 ) depend- (I*) depending on it 9 they cafi Tradition behind their backs. 4. They cry up the fathers : and when we bring their judgements sgainfl the fub /lance of Popery , they Sometime vilifie or accufe them as erroneous, and fometime tell us, that Fathers ojs well as Scripture mufi be no other- -wife under fiood, than their Church expound- cth them. %. They plead for an appeal to Councils^W (though we eafily prove that none of them were univcrfal,yetfuch as they were) they call them all Reprobate, which were not ap- proved by their Tope, let the number of Bi~ fljops there be never fe great. And thofe that were approved, if they fpeaf^againfi them, they rejeEl a/fo, either wtfh lying fbijts denying the approbation, or faying , the dels are nut defide, tfr^fconciliariterfafta, orthefenfe w&fi be given by their prefent Church, or cxe fuch contemptible Jhft or other. 6. At leajl one would thinks they Jhould fiand to the judgement of the Pope, which yet they will not ' for /Same forbids them to own the Dottrine of thofe Popes that were Here- ticks or Infidels ( and by Councils fo judged:) And others they are forced to dif own, becaufe they contraditl their Predecejfors. And At Rome the Cardinals are the Pope, while he that dp) that hath the n;tme is oft made light cf. And hew infallible he is judged by the French and ji* Venetians ^ hoVpSixtm the fifth tyAsva- luedby /•£? Spaniards, ,W by Bellarmine, is commonly known. 7. But all this it nothing to their renunci- ation ^humanity, even of the common fenfes and rcafon of the world, when the matter is brought to the Decifion of their eyes, and tafie, and feelings whether Bread be Bread, and Wine be Wine - and jet all Italy, Spa n , Auftria,Bravaria, &c. cannot refolve it ; yta y generally (unlefs fome latent Protefianr) do pafs their judgement againfl their fenfes , & the fenfes of all found men in the JYcrld^& that not in a matter beyond the reach offenfe (as Whether Chrilt be there fpiritually)but in a matter belonging to fenfe, if any thing be- long to it . as whether Bread be bread, &c. Kings and Nobles y Prelates and Priefls^do all give their judgement y that all their fenfes arc deceived* And is it poffible for thefe men then to know any thing ? or any controver, between m and them to be decided ? If we fry that the Sun is lighter that the Pope is 4 m.m, and Scripture legible, or that there are the Writings of Councils and Fathers extant in the World >t hey m*y as well concur in a deny /.I of all this, or any thing elfe that fenfe fbould (a 4) judge do) judge of. If they tell us that Scripture re- quireththem to contradict all th?ir fenfes in this pint ; I anfwcr, J. Not that Scripture before mentionedjhat calleth it [[Bread] after the Confecration , thrice in the three ntxt Vrrfes. l.Andhowknowthty that there isfuch a Scrip -pre, if M their fenfes be fo fallible ? Jf the certainty of fenfe be not fuppofed, a little learning or Vrit might fatisfie them, that Faith can have no certainty. But is it not amoft dreadful judgement of God^ that Princes «nd Nations, Learned men^and fome that in their Voay are confcientious^ Jhould be given ever to fo much inhumanity , and to make a Religion cf this brutifhnefs , ( and wor/e) and toferfecute thefe with Fire and Sword, that ate not fo far forfaken by God^ and by their reafeni and that they fhould fe folic it a- fly labour the perverjion of States and Kingdoms for the promoting of ftupidity crftark^madnefs ? 8. And (if we go from their Principles to their Ends, or Wayes^ we Jhall foon fee that ) they are alfo again ft the Unity of the Church, while they pretend this M their chief eft Argu- gument, to draw men to their way. They fet tip a corrupted Fattion, and condemn the far greater part of the Church ^ and will have no n$ unity With any but thcfe of their own Ft- flion and Subjettion : and fix this as an effen* tial fart of their Religion, creating thereby an impoffibility of univerfal concord. 9-Thty alfo contraditt the Experience of many thoufand Saints •> averting that they are all void of the Love of God and fating Grace, till they become fubjeSi to the Pope of Rome ^ when as the Souls of thefe Believers have Experience of the Love of God within them, and feel that Grace that proveth their Jufiifcation. I wonder what kind of thing it is that is-They are Enemies to common Honefty, ' teaching the Do&rines of Equivocations and JHental Refervations , and making many hai- nous fins venial , and many of the mo ft odi- ous fins to be Duties, as killing Kings that are excommunicated by the Pope, taking Oaths with the forefaid Refervations, and breaking them,&cc. For the Jefuits Dottrine,Montal- tus the Janfenift, and many of the French Clergy have pretty well opened it : And the Tefe himfelf hath lately been fain to publifh a condemnation of their Apology. And yet the power and inter eft of the Jefuites and their followers amnng them, it not altogether un- known to the 'World. i. 15. They are Enemies to Civil Peace and i Government, <»3) Government, {if there be any fuch in tkt World) as their DotTrine and Practice of killing and depofing excommunicate Princes, breaking Oaths, &c. /hews. Bellarmine that will go a middle w.:y, gives the Pope power in ordine ad fpiritualia , and indiretlly, t3 difpofe of Kingdoms, and tells usjhat it U un- law full to tolerate Heretical Kings that pro- pagate their Herefie, _( that is, the ancient Faith.) HeWwell Dotlor Heylin hath vin- dicated their Council of Laterane in this, ( whofe Decrees ftand as a Monument of the horrid treafonable Dottrine of the Papifis ) I Jhall, if Godwill, hereafter manifefi : Jn the mean time Jet any man read the Words of the Council, and fudge. And now whether a Religion that is at fuch open enmity with i .Scripture, 2, The Church, 3. Tradition , 4. Fathers, 5. Councils ,6. Some Popes, 7. The common fenfes and Reafon of aE the World, eventheir own, 8. V nity tf/Chri- ftians, 9. Knowledge, ic. Experience of Believers, I 1 . Charity, M. Purity ofWorflAp, 1 3 . Holinefs, i ^.Common Hunefiy, 1 $.And to Civil Government and Peace {which might all eafily be fully proved, though here but touched ) / (ay , whether fuch a Religion fhould be embraced and advanced With fuch diligence and violence, and mens fouls laid upon (*4) Mpon it, is the controverfie before us. And whether it fhould be tolerated {even the pro" fagation of it, to the damnation of the peoples fouls) is mw the Jjtueftion which the juggling Papifts havefet afoot among thofe that have made themf elves our Rulers : and. there are found men among us , that call themf elves Proteftants and after their contrary Pro- feffionS) prove fuch Traitors to Chrift, his Gofpel and their pofterity, as they leave the Land of their Nativity in mifery, they fhall leave their fiinking names for a reproach and curfe to future Generations -, and on fuch Pillars fhall be written, Q This pride, felf- feeking, uncharitablenefs, and fchifm hath done. ] ( This was written and printed under the late Ufurpers, ) Poftfcrift. (*5) Poftjcrift. Redder^ T Hough the Papifts have feemed to be the moft difcountenanced party under :he late Ufurpers^and to have no intereft or x>wer,yet I have ftill found, that thofe fped vorft from men , that were moft againft ;hem ^ and that I never wrote any book igainft them, but it brought a (harper ftorm upon me,then any thing that I wrote againft my other Sed that was more vifibly in po- wer. And yet it was not openly profefled. to be for my oppofition to Popery, but on fome other account : and though the foun- tain by the tafte of the waters, might be known, yet it felf and fecrct condu&s were all underground and undifcernable. The Jefuits that are the fpring of thefe, and greater things then thefe, are latent, and their motion is not feen, while we fee the motions which are caufcd by their fecret force. So that by this means its only thofe few inquifitive difcerning perfons, that can feeacaulein its effed", that find them out: and thofe few are unable to make full proof, even of the things they know , and thereby are • are prohibited from appearing openly in the caufe, left coming (hort in legal proof, they leave the guilty triumphing over the inno- cent as calumniators. lor the laft book that I wrote againft them {My Kejfcr Ca- t hoi ikes) theParliamenr-houfe it felf, and all the land did ring of my accufations • and the menaces were fo high, that my intended ruine was the common talk. And I know their Indignation is not abated. My crime is, that their zeal to profely te me, harh ac- quainted me with fome of their fecrecs, and let me know what the Jefuits are doing, and how great a party that are masked under the name of Seekers , Famillfis, &c. they have in the land. I have therefore Reader, this double requeft to thee : Firft, arm thy felf diligently againft Popery , if thou would'ft preferve thy Religion and thy foul Whatever Sedsaflault thee openly, fufped: and avoid the difeafe that is endeavouring with greateft advantages to be Epidemical. To thread, be well ftudied in the writings that have opened their vanity and fhamc : I hope, what I have written on that fubjeft, will not be ufelefs to them that are not at leifure to read the larger volumes. Read Dr. Challoners Credo JanBam Ecclefium Ca. tholkam. Peter Monlins Anfwer to Cotton* Queftions (*7> Queftionsi And for larger Volumes, Vfb'er, Chillingrvorth^ Field, Whittakers, efpecially de Pomif. Roman, may be numbered with the moft folid, judicious and ufeful; And Dr. Afouline of the Novelty of Popery now in the prefs , with Rivet , and Chamier , to add no more. And if ever thou fall in company with Seekers, or Famlifts, that are queftioning all things, and endeavouring to difparage the holy Scriptures, and the Miniilry, and Church, and Ordinances^ though but in a queftioning way, look then to thy Religion, and fufpeft a Papift : Secondly , becaufe experience hath taught me to exped: that my renewed affault of Popery {hould raife fomeftorm,and renew my dangers, (though I know not which way it will come, and ex- ped it (hould be upon pretence of fome- thing that is no kin to the real caufej let him that hath been fo exceedingly beholden to the fervants of Chrift for prayers, have thy prayers in particular for this, that he may befatished in Gods approbation, and count it a fmai!n;atter to be cenfured by man, or to fuffer thofe fotc and harmlefs ftroaks, that tlu impotent armofflefh can inflid • and may live and dye in the Army of believers, delcribed Hel. u,and iz. and U8) and be fo far prefcrved from the contri- vances of malice , as is needful to his ap- pointed work ; in which it is the top of his ambition to be found A faithful, though unworthy fer- vant of Chrififor his Churchy Rich. Baxter. The w V *wS^Sw^wJ.w?.w5!^J The Contents. The firft Part. Mr. Johnfons Argument profecnud^ t$ pag. 6 Mj Anfwer. 7 to 26 Mr. Jobnfons fecond Paper. 27 Ws attempt U prove thefucceffion of the Ko~ mznSoveraigntj. 49 to the end. My letter to the fender of his. 68 M] Reply to the fecond Paper. 77 On which tfut the Proof is incumbent. 87 Of the Eaftern and Southern Churches-. 94, 95, &c. Whether Vre are one Church with them cf Rome. 107, &c. Cf our Reparation. 1 07 Whether the Armenians, Ethiopians, Syrians, &c. are excluded as Heretic\s ? 113 The inftance of an Appeal of John 0/ Ant*< ch refuted. 1 z 7 (b) The i The Contents. The infiance of Flavianus Appeal refuted- 129 Of Leo's pretended reftoring Theodoret upon Appeal. 132 Of Cyprians defire that Stephen -would depofe Martian Bifhop of Aries. 133 A pretended Decree of the Council of Sardis examined. 135 Bafils -words Epifi. 74. examined . 138 Chryfoftoms words to Innocent. 140 A pretended Proof from the Council of Ephe- lus confuted. •'- 141 Of the address to? ope Julius/^ Athanafius and the Arrians. 143 Chamiers words hereabout. 146 Of Chryfoftoms cafe. 147 Of Theodofks and the ConclL Ephef. 152 Of the Council of Calccdon. 1 54 Of Pope Agapet depofing Anthymius of Con- ftantinople. n 159 Of Gregories words. 1 60 Of Cyril and Celeftine againfi Neftorius. 161 Of Juvenals words. 163 Of Valentinians and Theodofius words. 164. Of Vincentius Lirinenfis words. 169 of inc v^on tenia. Of Philip and Arcadius at ConciL Ephcfus. 170 The nullity of all thefe fretended Proofs. Whether Papifis give , and Popes accept the Title of Vice-Chrifi , Monarchy &c. 175 to 188 Of the Contefi of Councils for the Rule. 188 yfcfr. Johnfons work^ to which his caufe en- gagethhim. 191 The Concents of the fccond Part. Qtt;\V7 Hether the Church of which the Proteflants are members have been vifible ever fince the daies of Chrifl on earth} Aff. The Church what. 1 9j Proteftants what . 198 Of Membcrfhip,^ Vifibility. 201 The firfi Argument, to prove the fucceffive Vifibilitj. 204 The fccond Argument. 209 PapifisTefiimonies for the fufficiencji of Scri- pture as the RuU. 219 (b 2) Some The Contents.' Some cf the Fathers cf the fame. 22 f Where was our Church, 225 The true Catholike Church ^how defcribedbj Auguftine. 227 Optacus. 231 Tertullian. 232 The third Argument. 238 The fourth Argument. 241, 242 Arguments proving* the Vijibility of * Church without the Papacy , fince Chrift. Argument firfi y from the Council of Cal- cedon. 242 Argument 2. From the filence of the An- cients in cafes where the allegation of the Papal poster would have been mo ft perti- nent and necejfarj. 244 Argument 3 . From the Tradition and Te- ftimeny of the greatefl part of the Church. 248 Argument 4. From the Churches without the verge of the Empire, not fubjett to the Pope. 249 Argument 5. From the Eaftern Churches within the Empire , not fubjeEls of the Pope. 251 Argument 6. From the full Tefiimony of Gregory the firft, p. 252, &c. defended againjl Bellarminc* Argument The Content*. Argument 7. From the Confeffton of chief Papifts. -firms Sylviys, Mtlchior Ca* nus, Reyncrius. 267 Argument 8. From Hiftorical Teftimonj about the Original of Vniverfal Headfhrp. 269 Argument 9. The generality of Chriftians in the fir ft ages^ ana mo ft in the Utter ', free from owning the Tupac y. 271 Argument 10. Moft Chriftians in all ages ignorant of Popery. 275 Objed. The Armenians, Greeks, &c. difftr from P rot eft ants : Anfaered. 280 MifcelUny confiderable TeftlmcttiJ. 288 Mr. Johnfons exception. 292 My Anfwer to hi* exception, Jhewing in what fenfe Here ticks are , or are noc in the Churchy apply ed to the Eaftern and Sou- them Churches. 293 ,&c. Mr. Johnfons Explication of the moft ufed terms, withmj j^uere's there upon , and his Anfwer , and m j Reply. 1. Of the Church. 2. Of Here fie. 3 24, &c. 3. Of the Pope. 3 30,&c. 4; Of Bifhops. 337 5- Of Tradition. v 342 Of General Councils. 345 t.ef The Contents.- Letters between me WT.S. aFafift-.witk "Narrative of the f*ccej * writt* hg friend. / I ERRATA. DAgc 17*. L 14* for it r. ffetf. p.179* llA t. Praferi. *■ p. 117. 1 **• *• ^cej^tate. p. 271. 1, f • r. JEtt&jfci Mr. fohnfons firft Paper, jMp Hf Church of Chrift^ wherein only Solvation is to be had, never was nor u any other then thofe Affembnes of Christi- ans who were united in com- munion and obedience to S> Peter in the beginning fmcc the Afcen(ion of Chrift, And ever fince to his lawful fuc- cejfors, the*BiJhopsof Rome, as to their chief Faftor. Proof. Whatfoever Congregation of Chriftians is now the true Church of Chrift , acknow- ledges S. Teter and his lawful fucceffors the Bifhops of Rome , ever fince the Afcen- fion of Chrift te have been • and now co be by the Inftitution of Chrift, their chief B Head Mr. Johnfons firfi Paper. Head and Governour on earth in matters belonging to the foul next under Chrift. But there is no falvation to be had out of that Congregation of Chriftians, which is now the true Church of Chrift; Erge^ there is no falvation to be had out of that Congregation of Chriftians which acknowledges S. Peter and his lawful fuc- cefTors the Biftiops of Rome ever to have been fince the Afcenfion of Chrift ; and now to be by the Inftitution of Chrift their chief Head and Governour on earth in matters belonging to the foul next under Chrift. The Minor is clear •, For all Chriftians agre : e in this, that to be faved, it is necefTary to be in the true Church of Chrift • that only being his myftical Body, Spoufe and Mother of the faithful, to which muft be- long all thofe who ever have been, are, or fhall be faved. The Major I prove thus. Whatfoever Congregation of Chriftians is mw the true Church of Chrift, hath been alwaics vifible fince the time of Chrift , either under perfecution, or in peace and flourifhing. But no Congregation of Chriftians hath been alwaies viiible fince the time of Chrift, cither Mr. Johnfons fir ft Paperl either under perfecution or in peace and flouriftiing, fave that only which acknow- ledges S. Peter znd his lawful Aicceflbrs the Bifhops of Rome , ever to have been fince the Afcenfion of Chrift ; and now to be by Chrifts Inltitution , their chief Head and Governour on earth, in matters belonging to the foul next under Chrift. Ergo, whatfoever Congregation of Chri- ftiansis now the true Church of Chrift, ac- knowledges St. Peter, and his lawful fuc- ceflbrs the Biftiops of Rome , ever to have been fince the Afcenfion of Chrift'} and now to be by Chrifts Inftitution their chief Head and Governour on earth, in matters belonging to the foul, next under Chrift. The Major is proved thus. •Whatfoever Congregation of Chriftians hath alwaies had vifible Paftors and People uniteji, hath alwaies been vifible , either under perfecution , or in peace and flo.uriftiing. But whatfoever Congregation of Chri- ftians is now the true Chu rch of Chrift, hath alwaies had vilible Paftors and People united. Ergo, whatfoever Congregation of Chri- ftians is now the true Church of Chrift, hath alwaies been vifible, either under per- B 2 fccution, -Z--TT Mr. Johnfons fir ft Paper. fecution, or in peace and flourifliing. The Major of thislaft Sylogifm is evident, for feeing a vifible Church is nothing but a vifible Paftor and people united : where there havealwaies been vifible Paftors and people ttnited y there hath alwaies been a vifible Church. The Minor I prove from Ephefians, cap. 4. ver. 10, 11, 12,13, i^&c. Where S. 7aul faies , that Chrift had Inftitured, that there (hould be Paftors and Teachers in the Church for the work of the Miniftry , and prefer ving the people under their refpeftive charges from being carried away with every wind of dodrine, &c which evidently (hews, thofe Paftors muft be vifible, feeing the work of the Miniftry, which Preaching, and Adminiftracion of Sacraments, and Governing their flocks, are all external and vifible a&ions. And this (hews likewife, that thofe Paftors and People muft be alwaies vifible, becaufe they are to continue from Chrifts Afcenfion, untill we all meet together in the unity of faith, &c which cannot be before the day of judgement. Neither can it befaid (asfomefay) that this promife of Chrift is only conditional, fince to put it to be fo without evident Reafon, cJWr. John Con s firft Paper. Reafon, giveth fcope to every one at his pleafure, to make every other promife of Chnft to be condicional. And fo we (hall be certain of nothing that Chrift hath pro- mifed, neither that (hall aiwaics beavifible or invifible Church, nor any Church at all ^ no nor of Judgement, nor of Eternal life, or of the Refurre&ion of the dead, &c for one may fay with as much ground, as this is faid, that fome conditions were in- cluded in all thofe promifes, which being not fulfilled, hinders the execution of them. There remains only, to prove the Minor ofthefecondSylogifm,^/*,. That no Con. gregation of Chriftians hath been alwaies vifiblc, &c. fave that which acknowledges S. Peter , and his lawful fuccefTors , &c. to be their chief Head and Governour, &c. next under Chrift. This Minor I prove, by obliging the an- fwerers to nominate any Congregation of Chriftians, which alwaies till this prefent time, fince Chrift,hath been vifible^ either under perfecution, or in peace and flourifti- ing, fave chat only which acknowledges S. Peter, &c. utfupra. Sir, To comply Vvith your Ae fires of brevity, and of confining my felf to half a fheet of B 3 f*ptr; 6 'Mr. Johnfons firfi Pa$cr. paper -, I fend you at prefent only one Argu- ment, which being fully dlf cuffed^ Jhall be followed by others God willing. To this as to all the refi of my Arguments , which may hereafter be urged : / require a Categorical andflriSl Sylogifiical Anfwerin Form, by Concedo,Nego, Diftinguo, Omitto, Tran- . feat. And the particular Provofitionsfpeci- fied, to which the Rejpondents apply any of them ; and no more then precifely thus, neither adding Amplifications , Reafons , Proofs, &c. of their own out $f form, and that this may be done with all convenient \ jpeed. To the place of Scripture > Ephef.4. &c. is alfo required a Categorical anfwer, to what is precifely prejfed in it, without direBing the difcourfeto other things: And what is anfwered otherwife, I {ball not efteem an anfwer y but an Effagium, or declining of the difficulty. By this method exaffly obfer- ved, Truth will eafily and fpeedily be made manifefi ^ and your ds fires of Brevity ^oill be punctually complied with. • I alfo de fire, that the Respondent or Refpondents will {as I do to this) fubfcribe his, or their name or names to their anfwers, fo often as any are by him or them returnedjvith the day of the month when rtt timed. William Johnfon. Decern. 9. 1658 The The Jnfiver to the firft Paper. I received yours, and writ this Anfwer 3 fan. 4. 1658. W Sir, Hoever you are,aferi*us debate with fo fober a Difputant, is to me an exceeding acceptable employment : 1 /hall not , I hope, give joh any caufetofay, that I decline any diffi- culties, or balk^ yourftrength, or tranfgrefs the fart of a Re f pendent. But becaufe, 1 . You have not (as ]ou ought to have done)explaincd the terms of your The (is. 2. And have made your Proportions fo long. 3 . And have fo cunningly lapped up your fallacies 5 your Refpondent is ntceffitated to be the larger in diftinftion and explication. And feeing you are foinfiant with me for ftrittnefs,you there- by oblige jour felf> if you rviltbe ingenuous, to make only the learned, and not any ignorant B 4 men 8 The J # fiver te the fir ft Ptfer. men the Judges of our dilute : becaufe you kpow that tc the unlearned a bare Nego Jig- nifieth noi Hng ^ but when fuch have read jour Arguments at lengthy thej will expeB as plain and large a confutation^ or judge you to be in the right for peaking mofi. TO your Argument, i . Your conclufion contained not your Thefis, or Quefti- on. And fo you give up your caufe the firft itep, and make a new one. It fhouldhave contained your Queftion in terms, and ic doth not fo much as contain it in the plain fenfe .- fo much difference is there between £ Affemblies of Chriftians united, &c7\ and {^Congregation of Chriftians] and between [[Salvation or the Church, never was in any other then thofe AfTemblies] and [no Salvation out of that Congregation] ^ as I fhall (hew you : befides other differences which you may fee. Ad Major em. Ref p. i. By[Congrega- tionj you mean, either the whole Catholike Church united in Chrift, or fome particular Congregation, which is but part of that whole. In the latter fenfe, your Sub jed hathafalfe fuppofition, viz. that a part is the whole ^ and your Minor will be falfe. And The Anfacr+o tbefirji Paper. And your {[whatsoever Congregation of Chriftians ] fecms to diftinguifti that from fome other excluded Congregation of Chri- ftians that is not part of the Catholike Church, which is a fuppofing the chief pare of the Queftion granted you, which we deny. We know no univerfal Congrega- tion of Chriftians but one, which contain- cth ail particular Congregations and Chri- ftians, chat univpcaHy deferve that name. 2. Either you mean that " this whole Congregacion or true Church acknowledg- ed] the Popes Sovereignty, or elfe [[that :^partot it doth acknowledge it.] The former I deny, and challenge any man living to prove; If it be [part only] that you mean, then either [the greater partj or [the leffer]] : that it is the greater, I as con- fidently alrnoft deny ; for it is againft the common knowledge of men acquainted with the world, &c. If you mean ] the lefferpart] you fhall fee anon that it de- stroys your caufe. 3 . Either you fpeak de Ecclefa qtt& talx, or de Ecclefia qua talis : and mean that this [acknowledgement] is effential to it, or at leatt an infeparable property, or elfe that it is afeparabie acudenr. The latter will do you no good % the former 1 deny. In fumm : lo The i^Anfacr te thejirfi Pdper. fumm : I grant that a fmall corrupt part of the Catholike Church doth now acknow- ledge the Pope to be Chrifts Vicar, for the Vice-chrift ) •, but I deny, i. That the whole doth fo ("which is your great caufej 2. Or the major part. 3. Or any Con. gregation through all ages (though if they had,it would do you no good.) 4. Or that it is done by any upon juft ground, but is their corruption. Ad minor em Refp. I. If you mean any [part] of the Univerfal Church by [that Congregation which is now the true Church 3 I deny your Minor : If [the whole] I grant it. 2. You fay [[all Chri- ftians agree]] in it, &c. Refp. I think all proteftants,or near all, do : but Francifcus bfantta Clara hath copioufly told us (in Artie. Anglic.) that moft of your own Doftors are for the falvation of Infidels • and then either you take Infidels for your Church members, or yourDodors for no Chriftians, or you play not fair play to tell us fo grofs an untruth, that all Chriftians are agreed in it. To your conclufion. Refp.i. Either you mean that [\here is no Salvation to be had out of that Univerfal Church, whofe part (a minor corrupt part) acknowledged the Popes The i^»fwer to the frfi Paper. 1 1 Popes Sovereignty ]] orelfe [[that there is no Salvation to be had out of that Univer- fal Church which wholly acknowledged it] or elfe £that there is no Salvation to be had out of that part of the Univerfal Church which acknowledgeth it.] In the firft fenfe I grant your conclufion fif really you are part of the Church.) There is no Salvation to be had* out of Chrifts Univerfal Church, of which you are a fmall corrupted part. In the fecond fenfe I told you we deny the fuppofition in the fubjeft. In the third fenfe I deny the fequel ^ nonfequitur, be- caufe your Major propofition being falfe deEcclefia univerf alight conclufion mult be faife de parte ifta, as excluding the reft. But to the unskilful or unwary reader your conclufion feemeth to import , that fthe being in fuch a Church which acknow- ledgeth the Popes Soveraignty, as it is fuch a Church, is neceffary to Salvation] andfo that theperfons acknowledgement is ne- cefTary.3 But it is a fallacia accident is cun- ningly lapt up, that is the life of your im- ported caufe. That part of the Univerfal Church doth hold to the Popes Soveraign- ty,is per accident-, and could you prove that the whole Church doch fo ( which you are mlike to do) I would fay the like. And that 14 The Anfwtr to the firfi Paper. that your fallacy may the better appear ^ I give you fomc examples of fuch like iophifms. [Whatsoever Nation is the true Kingdom of Spain is proud and cruel againft Proce- ftants : But there is no protection there due to any that are not of that Kingdom : therefore there is no prote&ion due to any that are not proud and cruel.] Or [[what- * foerer Nation is the true Kingdom of France acknowledged] the Pope : but no protedion is due from the Governours to any that are not of that Kingdom.- there- fore no protedion is due to any that ac- knowledge not the Pope. J Or [what ever Nation is the Kingdom of Ireland in the daies of Queen Elizabeth, was for the Earl of Tyrone i but there was no right of Inheritance for any that were not of that Nation : therefore there was no right of Inheritance for any that was not for the Earl of Tyrone.'} Or fuppofc that yon could have proved it of all rhe Church, if you had lived four hundred years after Chrift, you might as well have argued thus. [[Whatfoever Congregation of Chriftians is now the true Church of Chrift, is againft kneeling in Adoration on the Lords daies. But there is no Salvation to be had out of that The Anfaer to the fir (I Paper. 1 5 that Congregation of Chriftians, which is now the true Church of Chrill : therefore there is no Salvation to be had out of that Congregation which is againft kneeling on the Lords day, &c.~\ Buc yet, I. There was Salvation to be had in that Congrega- tion without being of that opinion. 2. And there is now Salvation to be had in a Con- gregation that is not of that opinion,asyou will confefe. Or [whatfoever Congregation of Chri- ftians is now the true Church of Chrift , doth hold the Canticles and the Epiftle to Phile- mon to be Canonical Scripture , (and fo have done, &c.) But there is no Salvation to be had out of the true Church : there- Fore there is no Salvation to be had out of that Congregation which holdeth the Canticles ana Epiftle to Philemon to be Canonical Scripture.^] But yet , 1. Sal- vation is to be had in that Church without holding it. 2. And its poffible hereafter a Church may deny thofe two-books, and yet you will think Salvation not thereby over- thrown. This is but to (hew your fallacy from a corrupt accident, and indeed but of 1 part of the Church, and a fmall part. Now to your proof of the Major. Refp. «d Major. The prefent matter of the Church 14 The A'afrcrtotke fir ft Paper, Church was not vifible in the laft Genera- tion 5 for we w^re not then born : but the fame form of the Church was then exiftent in a vifible Matter, and their Profeffion was vifible or audible, though their faith it felf was invifible. I will do more then you ihall do, in maintaining the conftant viabi- lity of the Church. Ad minor em. I. If you mean that no Congregation hath been alwaies vifible [but that Univerfa4 Church whofe lejflfer corrupt part acknowledges 3 the Popes Soveraignty, I grant it. For befides £ the whole containing all Chriftians as the parts] there can be no other. If you mean [Tave that part which acknowledgeth] you contradid your felf, becaufe a part imply- eth other parts. If you mean [Tave that Univerfal Church, all whofe members for the moft) acknowledge it J, there is no fuch fubjeft exiftent. 2. I diftinguifh of Vifi- bility : Its one thing to be a vifible Church, that is, vifible in its eflentials^ and another thing to be vifible quoad hoc, as tofome fe- parable accident. QThe Univerfal Church] was ever vifible •, becaufe their Profeffion of Chriflianity was fo, and the perfons pro- feffing : But [[the acknowledgement of the Vice-chrift] was not alwaies vifible, no not in The Afifoer to the fir ft Paper. I J n any part, much lefs in the whole. And fit had, it was but a feparable accident if your difeafe be not incurable,) that was dfible: and therefore, i. It was not ne- :effary to Salvation, nor a proper mark of he Church. 2. Nor can it befo for the ime to come. I need to fay no more to your conclusion, four Argument is no better then this, \vhatfoever Congregation of Chriftiansis tow the true Church ofChrift, hath been ilwaies vifible fince the time of Chrift ; 3ut no Congregation of Chriftians hath )een fo vifible, faveonly that which con- iemneth the Greeks, which hath a Colledge :>f Cardinals to choofe the Popes, which ienieth the cup to the laity, which forbid- zxh the reading of Scripture in a known tongue without licenfe, &c. Therefore whatsoever Congregation of ChriAians is now the true Church of Chrift, hath all thefe] •, 1 . In a corrupt part it hath. 2. But it had not alwaies. 3 . And may be cured hereafter. To your proof of the Major ; 1 . I grant your Major. 2. Aa minorem. I, Either you mean Qlniverfal Paftors^ each one, orfomeone having charge and Government of the [whole 1 6 ?ht Anfotr to the firjl Paper. [whole Church, ] or you mean, [[unfixed Paftors having an indefinite charge of Preaching and Guiding when they come and have particular calls and opportunities'] or you mean [[the fixed Paftors of particu- lar Churches "-In the firft fenfe your Minor is falfe, the Cacholike Church was never fo united to any Univerfal Head but Chrift:no one of the Apoftles governed the reft & the whole Church , much lefs any fince their time. In the fecond fenfe, I grant that the Church bach ever had Paftors fince the Afcenfion. In the third fenfe, I grant that fome parts or other of the Catholike Church, have ever had fixed Paftors of Congregations fince the firft fettling of fuch Paftors. But any one particular Con- gregation may ceafe to have fuch Paftors, and may ceafe it felf: and Rome hath been long without any true Paftors -, andthere^ fore was then no fuch vifible Church. 2. If by [Congregation] you mean not the Univerfal Church, but [a part\ or if you mean it of [[all the parts of the Univer- fal Church] I deny your Minor : Commu- nities of Chriftians, and particular perfons have been and may be without any Paftors, to whom they are united or fubjed. The Indians that died in the faith while Frame*- tins The Anftver to the pft Paper. 17 tins and Edefius were there preaching,: before they had any Paftor, were yet Chri- stians and fayed ; If a Lay-man Convert one, or a thoufand, (and you will fay that he may baptize them ) and they die before they can have a Paftor , or ever hear of any to whom rhey owe fubje&ion , they are neverthelefs faved, as members of the Church • And if allthePaftorsina Nation were murdered or baaifhed, the people would not ceafe to beChriftians and menu bers of the Church. Much lefs if the pope were dead or depofed, or a vacancy befell his feat, wouIdalhheCatholike Church be annihilated, or ceafe. To your Confirmation of the MajV "that a vifible Church is nothing but a Vifible Paftor, and people united] I an- fwer: 1. Its true of the univerfal Church, as united in Chrift, the great Paftor, but not as united in a Vice-Chrift or humane head. 2. It is true of a particular Political or organized Church, as united to their proper . paftors 3. But it is not true of every Community of Chriftians who are a part of the Univerfal Church. A compa- ny converted to Chrift, are members of the Univerfal Church,, ( though they ne- ver heard of a Pope at Rome) before C they l $ The Jnftver to t be fir ft Paper. they arc United to Paftors of their own. The Proof of the Minor from Eph. 4. I grant as aforefaid : The text provech that Paftors the Church fhall have; I de- claim the vain objeftion £.of Conditiona- lly in the promife 3 which you mention. But it proves nor, 1 . That the Church (hall have an Univerfal Monarch or Vice- Chrift, under Chrift. 2. Nor that every member of the Univerfal Church, (hali certainly be a mcir.ber of a particular Church, or ever fee the face of a Paftor, or be fubjeft to him. You fay next There remains only to prove the Minor of the fecond Syllogifm, *//*,. that no Congregation of Chnftians hath been alwaies vifible but that which ac- knowledges, &c 3 This is the great point which all lyeth on : The reft hath been all nothing, but a cunning (booing horn to this. Prove this, and prove all ; Prove not this, and you have loft your time. You fay [_ The Minor 1 prove, by obli- ging the an fwerers to nominate any Con- gregation of Chriftians which alwaies till this prefent time fince Chrift hath been vi- fible fave that only which acknow- ledges &c.~\ And have I waited all this while The Anfwer to the fir ft Paper. \p while for this? You prove ic by obliging me to prove the contrary. Ridiculous / fed qn$ jure ? i. Your undertaken form of arguing obligeth you to prove ^our Mi- nor : You cannot caft your Refpondenc upon proving and fo arguing, and doing the Opponents part. 2. And in your Pcftfcript you prefently forbid it me ^ You require me to hold to a Ccncedo^ Negv, Di* fiingH9 > Omitto 9 Tranfeat 5 threatning that elie you will take it tor an Effuginm. And I pray you re 1 me in your next, to which of thefe doth the nomination or proof of fuch a Church as you defcnbe belong? Plainly , you firit flip away when you fhould prove your Minor, and then oblige me to prove the Contrary, and then te'l me, if I attempt it, you'i take it for an Effttgittm. A good caufe needs not fuch deaimgas this : which me thinks you (hould be loth a learned manlhould hear of. 3 .Your intereftalfoin the Mttttt fas well as your office as Oppo- nent^ doth oblige you to the proof. For though you make a Negative of it, you may put it in other terms at your pl.afure. It is your main work to prove ^khat All the members of the Univerfal Church havem all ages held the Popes Sovereignty or Uni- verfal Head.fhip.] Or [ the whole Vifible C 2 Church 20 The Anfotr to the fir ft Ptfer. Church hath held it] Prove this, and I will be aPapift ; you have ray promife. You affirm, and you mud prove. Prove a Catholike Church, at leaft that in the Ma- jor part was of that mind ; ( though that would be nothing to prove the condemna- tion of the reft.) If you are an impartial enquirer after truth , fly not when you come to the fetting too. I give you this further evident reafon why you cannot oblige me to what you here impofe ; i. Bfcaufe you require me to prove the Vifibility of a Church which held not your point of Papacy • andfo putanunreafon- able task upon me, about a Negative : or . elfe, I muft prove that they held the con- trary, before your opinion was ftarted ; And it is the Catholike Church that we are difputing about •,' fothat I muft prove this Negative of the Catholike Church. 2. ft is you that laythe great ftrefs of Neceflity on your Affirmative, more then we do on the Negative • you fay that no man can be faved without your Affirmative^ that the Pope is the univerfal Head and Governor 1 Butwefay#ot that no man can be faved that holdeth no: our Negative, ~ that he is not the Vice-Chrift J For one that hath the plague or leprofie may live. Therefore it The i^dnfrvcr te thefrft Paper. 2 1 it is you that muft prove that all the Catho- iike Church was ftill of your mind. 3 .And it is an Accident, and but an Accident of a fmaller corrupted part of the Catholike Church that you would oblige me to prove the Negation of ^ and therefore it is utterly needlels to my proof of a Vifible Catho- like Church. For I will without it prove to you a fucceflive Visibility of the Catho- like Church, from the VifibiJity of its EfTen- tial or Conftitutive parrs (of which your Pope is none. ) I will prove a fucceflive vifible Church that harh ftill profeffed faith in God the Father, Son and Holy Ghoft, and been united to the Univerfal Head, and had particular Paftors, fome fixed, fome unfixed, and he'd all effential to a Chriftian. And proving this, I have proved the Church of which 1 am a member. To prove that England hath been fo long a Kingdom, requireth no more but to prove the two Effential parts, King and Subjects, to have fo long continued united. It re- quireth not that I prove that it ever either d, or oppofed a Vice-King. This is our plain cafe. If a man have a botch on one of his hands ^ it is not needful in order to my proving him a man heretofore, that I prove he was born and bred without it : fo C3 be 3 z The Anjwer to the pfl Pafcr^ be it I prove that he was born a mair, it fuf- fkech. Nor is it ntedfull that I prove the ochf r hand alwaies to have been free, in order to prove it a member of the body : It fufficcth that 1 prove it to have been ftill m hand. I do therefore defire you to perform your work, and prove that [no Congre- gation hath been ftill vifible, but fuch as yours 3 or that [ the whole Catholike Chwrchhath ever fince the afcention held a Humane Univerfal Governour un- der thrift,] or elfe I (hall take it as a giving up your caufe asindefenfible. And pbferve, if you (hall prove only that apart of the Catholike Church ftill held this (which you can never do ) then, t. You will make the Contrary opinion as Confi- dent with falvation as yours. Fcr the reft of the Catholike Church is favable .2. And then you will allow me to turn your Argu- ment againft your lelf as much as it is agamft us (and fo caft it away.) e.g. what ever Congregation of Chriftians is now the rrue Church of Chrift , hath been al- ways Vifible ; But no Congregation of Chntlians hath been alwaies Vifible, but that which quoai partem denyeth the Pope$ univerfal Headlhip -, thereiore whatever Congregation The Anfwer t$ tbt fir ft Paper. 2 3 Congregation of Chriftians is the true Church, denyech the Popes univerfal Head- fhip. Well ! but for all this (fuppofing you will do your part ) I wili rail you in no- thing that's reafonable, which I can per- form. A Catholike Church in all ages that was againft the Pope,in every member of it, I hope I cannot (hew you •, becaufe I hope that you are members, though corrupt. But you (hall have more then a particular Congregation, or a hundred. 1. At this prefent, two or three parts of the Catholike Church is known to be againft your Univerfal Monarchy. The Greeks, Armenians , Ethiopians , e£r. befides the Proteftants. 2. In the laft age there were as many or more. 3. In the former ages till An. D. 1000. there were neer as many, or rather many more. For more be fain off in TenJuf % iV*£#*,and other parts then the Proteftants that came in. 4. About the year 600. there were many more , incomparably ^ and I think then, but ac leaft of 400. years after Chrift I never yet favr valid proof of one Papift in all the world, that is, one that was for the Popes Univerfal Monarchy or Vice-Chnft-ihip. So that C4 moft i 4 Tbt ^Anfwer to the fir ft Paper. moft of the Catholike Church ( about rhree parts to onej hath been againft yoa to this day ^ and ail againft you for many hundred years. Gould I name but a Nati- on againft you, I fhould think I had done nothing y much lefs if I cited a few men in an age, 5. And all thofe of Ethiopia, India, &c. 'that arc^ without the verge and awe of the Ancient Roman Empire, never fo much as gave the Pope that Primacy of dignity, which thofe within the Empire gave him, when he was. chief, as the Earl of Arundel is of the Earls of England that governeth none of them, and as the Lord Chancellor may be the chief judge, that hath no power in alieno foro : or as t-hc Eldeft Juftice is chief in the County and on the bench, that ruleth not the reft. Miftake not this Primacy for Monarchy, nor the Romane Empire for the world, and you can fay nothing. At prefent, adhomintm^ give you fuffici- ent proof of this fuccellion. As you ufe 'to fay that the prefent Church beft knew the Judgement of the former age, and fo on to the h^ad*, and fo Tradition beareth you out ; I turn^this unrefiftibly againft you. The far greatelt part of Christians the world that now arc in poffeffion of • the The Anfatr to the ft [I Pdfer. 25 the dodrine contrary to your Monarchy, tell us that they had it from their Fathers, indfo on. And as in Councils, fo with the Church Real, the Major part ( three to one ) is more to be credited then the Minor part ; efpecially when it is a vifible felf-advancement that the Minor part in-* fifteth on. 6. And were not this enough, I might add, that your weftern Church it felf in its Reprefentative Body at Conftancc and Bafil, hath determined that not the P( pe but a General Council is the chief Governor under Chrift •, and that this 1 ath been ftill the judgement of the Church, and that its Herefie in whoever that hold the Contrary. 7. And no man can prove that one half or tenth part of your people called Papifts are of yojur opinion ; for they are not called to profefsit by words: and their obedience is partly forced/ and partly upon other principles •, fomc obeying the Pope as their weftern Patriarch of chief dig- nity -andfomeand moft doing all for their % own peace and fafety : Their outward afts Mr ill prove no more. And now Sir, I have told you what Church of which we are members, hath been vifible • yea and what part of it hath oppo- fedtheVicc-Chriftof^^we. This I delayed not i6 "the Anjtver Utht fir Jl Paper. not an hour after 1 received yours, becaufe you defired fpeed. accordingly 1 crave your fpeedy return ^ and intreat you to advife with the moft learned men ( whe- ther Jefuites or others ) of your party in London that think it worth tneir thoughts, and time ; not that I have any thoughts of being their Equal in learning, but partly becaufe the caiefeemeth to me fo exceed- ing palpable, that I think it will fuffice me tofupply ail my dtfefts againft the ableft men on earth, or all of them together, of v your way ^ and principally becaufe I would feeyourftrength, and know the moft that can be faid, that I may be re&ified if I err ( which I fufpeft not ) or confirmed the more if you cannot evince it, and fo may be true to Gods Truth and my own foul. Kick. Baxter. *7 Mr. fohnfom fecond Paper* Sir, IT was my happinefs to have this Argument tr.nf fitted into your learned and quia hands-^which gratefully returns as fair a mea- gre as it received from yen : that Animo /tries m both fides fepoJed y Truth m*y appear in its c ullfplendcur, and feat it [elfin the Center of both our hearts. To your firft Exception. My Thefts was fufficiently made cleer to my friend, who was concerned in it ■ and needed no explication in usaddrefs to the earned. To your fecond Exception. My Propofitions were long, that tny Argument? as was required,) migh: be very (hort, and not exceed the quantity of half iftieet : which enforced me to penetrate many Syllogifms into one ^ and by that means in the firft not to be fo preofe in form, as otherwife I (hould have been. To 1 8 Mr. Jotinfons fee end Payer. To your third Exception. Seeing I required nothing but Logicall form in Anfwering, I conceive that regard was more to be had amongft the learned to that, then to the errours of the vulgar : that whileft ignorance attends to moft words, learning might attend to moft rea- fon. To your fourth Exception. ■My Argument contains not precifcly the terms of my Thefts', becaufe, when I was called upon to haften my Argument, 1 had not then at hand my Thefts. Had Iput more in my. The (is, then I prove in my Ar- gument, I had been faulty • but proving more then my Thefts contained ( as I cleeriy do ) no body hath reafon to find fault with me, fave my felt". The real'l diffe- rence betwixt Affemblies of Chriftians, and fongregation of Chriftitns, and betwixt Salvation is cnlj to be had in thofe Affem- blics , and Salvation is not to be had out of that Congregation^ I underftand not : feeing all particular affemblies of true Chrifuans , muft make one Congregati- on. To your Anfwer to my firft Syllogifm. He who diitinguiftjes Logically the terms of any propofition, muft not apply his Mr. Johnfons fccond Paper, 29 is diftin&ion to fome one part of the >rm only^but to the whole re r#z,as it ftands 1 the propofition diftinguifhed. Now in \y propofition I affirm, that the Congrega- iqnof Chriftians I fpeak of there, isfuch Congregation, that it is the true Church f Chrifi, that is, (as all know) the whole ^atholike Church ; and you diftinguifh hus, That I either mean by Congregation he whole Catholike Church, or only fome >artof it as, if onefhould fay, Whatsoever Congregation of men is thcCommon-wealth of England^ and another in anfwer 10 it fhould liitmguifh, either by Congregation of men 7 ou mean the whole Common-wealth, or bme part of it, when all men know, that by he Common-wealth of England muit be neant the whole Common-wealth : for 10 part of it is the Common- wealth of Eng- land. Again .you diftinguifh , that fome hings are EfTentials, or Ncccffanes, and >thers Accidents, which are acknowledged )rpradifed in the Church. Now to apply i his diftinftion to my Propofition , you muft liltinguifh that which I fay is acknowledged o have been ever in the Church by the In- itmion of Chrift, either to be meant of an ifTential , or an Accident ; when all the world jo f me, whether I meant ,the ; whole Parlia- nent, or fome determinate part of it I foufhould therefore have denyed, not iiuffdiftinguilhedmy Minor quite againft he exprefc words of it. What you fay igain of Eflfentials and Accident?, is already "cfuted ^ and by that alfo your Syllogifm 5 wrought by way of inftance. For your ^ropofition doth not fay, that the Church of Rome acknowledges thofe things were rjwaies done, and cbac by Chrifis Inftituti- )»,as my prcpofirion fays (he acknowledges Saint Peter andhls fuccefTors. i < To oiy third Syllogifm. • Granting my Major, you diftinguifh tba term Pafiors in my Minor y into particular and univerfal, fixed and unfixed, &c. 1 anfwer, that the teem Paftonrs ( as before Congregation) fignifies determinately.no one of thefe,but generically and in confufo all - and fo abftrads from each of them in particular, as the word Animal* 3.b{\ta&$ from homo and brutum. Neither can I mean fome parts of the Church only, had Paftors * for I fay, tvhatfocver CongrtgktitH of £hriftians is, now . the true Church of, Cfcrifiyhath altvaies had. vifible Paftors and People united. Now fbc Church is not. a D part, 3 4 Mr. John [onsjecond Paper. j part but the whole Church , that is, both thq whole body of the Church, and all particuJ lar Churches the parts of it. And hence is] folved your argument of the Indians, of] people converted by lay-men, when parti-J cular Pallors are dead, &c. For thofe were fubjefts of the chief Bifhop alone, till fome infenour Paftors were lent to them. For when they were taught the Chriftian Do-] drine 5 in the explication of that Article, /] believe the Holy Catholik? Church, they] were alfo taught, that they being people ofl Chrifts Church, muft fub jeft themfelves to] their lawful Paftors, this being a part of the j Chriftian doftrine. Heb. 13. who though J abfentinbody, may yet be prefent in fpiJ rit with them, as Saint P^/z/faith of himfclfj I Cor. 5. 3. Your Anfwer to the confirmation of my j Major feems ftrange. For I fpeak of vi-\ fible Paftors, and you fay lis true of an] x lnvi$ble Paftor, that is, Chrift our Saviour,! who is now mht&ven^ invifible to men on] earth. The reft is a repetition of what is! immediately before anfwered. £phef.4. proves not only that fome] particular Churches, or parts of the whole^ Church, muft alwaies have Paftors, but] that the whole Church it felf muft have! Paftors, Mr. Johnfons fecond Paper. 3 j Paftors, and every particular Church in it ^ for it fpeaks of that Church which is the Body of Cbrifi • which can be no lels then the whole Church. For no particular Church alone is his myftical Body, but only a part of it. Ephef. 4. is not dire&ly alledged to prove an univerfal Monarch, ( as you fay J but to prove an uninterrupted continuance of vifiblc Paftors • that being only affirm- ed in the propofition, which I prove by it. 2. This is already Anfwered. I ftand to the judgement of any true Logitian , nay or expert Lawyer, or rational perfon, whether a Negative propofition be to be proved otherwife then by obliging him who denies it, to give an initance to infringe it. Should you- fay, no man hath right to my Benefice andFunBionin myyarifh^ fave my J elf, and another fhould deny what you faid • would not you, or any rational man in your cafe, anfwer him, that by de- nying your propofition he affirmed that fome other had right to them, and to make good that affirmation was obliged to pro- duce who that was : which till he did, you .ftill remained thefole juft pofTeffour of your Benefice as before-, and every one will judge, that he had no reafonto deny your D 2 aflfertionp r $6 Mr. Johnfons fccond Papetl affertion,whcn he brought no proof againft it. This is our cafe. The Contradiction, which you would draw from this, againft my- Nego, Concedo^ &c. exaded from the Refpondent, and no- thing clfe, follows nor. For that prescri- ption is to be underftood, that the Refpon- dent of himfelf, without fcope given him by the opponent, was not to ufe any other forms in Anfwering-, But if the opponent fliould require that the refpondent give rea- fons.orinltances, or proofs, of what he de- nies,that then the Refpondent is to proceed to them. And this is moft ordinary in all Lo- gicall Difputations, where ftrid form is ob- ierved, and known to every yong Logitian. Inftances therefore demanded by the oppo- nent, were not excluded, but only fuch ex- curfions out of forra,as fhould proceed from the refpondent, with out being exadedby the opponent. You fay, though 1 make a Negative of it, I may put it in other terms at myplea- fure. But the queftion is not what I may do, but what I did : I required not an An- fwer to an Argument, which I nfiay frame, but to that which I had then framed, which was exprefled in a negative propofition. You tell mc if I prove the Popes univer- fai Mr. Johnfons ftcond Paper. 3 j fal Supremacy, you will be a Papift : And I tell you, I ha ye proved it by this rery Ar- gument,That either He hath that fuprema- cy, or fome other Church • denying that he hath alwaieshail it J hach beenalwaiesviftble-, and that Church I require fhould be named, if any fuch be,and whileft you refufe to name that Church ('as here you do ) you neither anfwer the Argument, nor become a Papift. You fay I^ffirm^nd Intvft prove. I fay in the propofition,about which we now fpeak, I affirm not,and fo muft not prove - y and you by denying it ,muft affirm,ani fo muft prove. You prove it is not your part here to prove, becaufe the Popes fupremacy could not be denyed 5 before it was affirmed • and you muft be obliged to prove that denyal. I oblige you not to prove acontinued vifible Church formally and exprefly denying it, but that it was of fuch a Conftitution as was inconfiftent with any fuch fupremacy, or could and did fubfift without it ^ which is an Affirmative. You affirm, that becaufe I fay you can- not be fayed if you deny that Supremacy, and you fay that I may be faved though I hold it, Therefore you are not bound to prove whar I reprove, but 1 to prove my negative proportion. But this would prove D 3 as 38 Mr. Johnfonsfecwd Paper. as well, that a Mahumetan is not bound to prove his religion to you, but you to prove yours to him, becaufe you fay he cannot be faved being a Mahumetan •, and he fays, that you may be faved being a Chriftian. See you not, that the obliga- tion of proof in Logicall form depends not ofthefirftpoficion.or Thefts, but mult be drawn from the immediate proportion, affirmative or negative, which is or ought to be propofed ? To what you fay of an Accident and a corrupt part, I have already anfwered. To what you fay of a vice-king, not be- ing neceffary to the Conftitution of a king- dom, but a king andfubje&s only, is true, if a vice-king be not inftituted by the Full power of an Abfolute Authority over $hat kingdom, to be an ingredient into the effenceof the Kingdom, in the Kings ab- fence; But if fo conftituted, it will be effential - 5 now my propofitionfaith,and my Argument proves, that by the Abfolute Authority of Chrlft, Saint Peter and his Sue- cejfors were inftituted Governors in Chrifis 'place of his Whole vifible Church •, and .whatfoever Government Chrift inftitutes of his Church, muft be effential to his hurchr You fee now the Difparity. You< CMr, Jonnions Jecond Paper. 39 You infitt to have me prove a Negative ^ md I infift to have you prove that Af- irmative, which you h\\ into by deny- ng my Negative, and leave it to judge- nent, whole exaction is the more conform reafon, and logical form. Eut if I prove not here , fay you , the whole Caiholike Churches holding ever the Popes Supremacy, yotifbtlltake it as a give- \ng up my caufe. I tell you again, that I tave proved it by this very Argument, by force of Syllogiftical form : and it is not reafonable to judge that I have en up my caufe, it I prove not a- gain, what I have already proved. Your caking upon you the part of an opponent now is, you know, out -of Sea- fon • when that is yours, minefhal! be the Respondent. AT length you give a fair attempt to fatisfie your obligation , and to return fuch an inftancc as I demanded of you. But you are too free by much in your offer. I demand one Congregation, and you promife to produce more then an hundred. But as they abound in the num- ber, fo are they deficient in the quality 1) 4 which 4P Ur. Jphnfons \econd Ptfer. which I require. I demand, that the An- swerer nominate any Congregation of Chrifii- *hs % which alwayes till this prefent time finve Chrifi hath been vifible, &c. and you tell mc of more then, an hundred Congregations, befides that which acknowledges Saint Per ter, &c. whereof not any one Jhath been all that clefigned time vifible: which is as if I had demanded an Anfwerer to nominate any Family of Gentry, which hath fuccef- fively continued ever fince William the jConquerour tijl this prefent time \ and h$ who undertakes to fatisfie my demand, fhoujd nominate more then a hundred Fa?- inilies, whereof not fo much as one conti- nued half that time You nominate fir ft all thefe prefent, the Greekj\ Armeni^m^ -Ethiopians, befides the Protectants. Thefe you begin with. Now to fatisfie my de- nr.and^ you muft affert, that thefe, whom ytTu firft name, are Both one Congregation^ ^nd h^ve been vifible ever fince thrifts fime. This you do not in the purfuee of your Allegations. For Nurr>b. 2. you no- Siiinate none at all, but tell me, that in the }afi age there yeere as many or more. What ,i£***£/ been againft 42 Mr. J ohnfons fecond P4per* againftusfor many hundred years? In yout' Num. 5 . You name Ethiopia and India as having been without the limits of the 1 Roman Empire, whom you deny to have acknowledged any fupremacy of power and! authority above all other Bifhops. You might have done well to have cited atleaft one antient Author for this AfTertion.Were thofe primitive Chriftians of another kind *B how ^ Church-order and Government, then] far from were thofe ^nder the Roman Empire * ?.' truth this When the Roman Emperors were yet H:a- is, appears thens, had not the Biftiop of Rome the Su- from St. premacy over all other Bifhops through the. Sermons 1S w ^ e Church ? and did thofe Heathen] denatali Emperors give it him ? How came St. fuo, where Cyprian, in time of the Heathen Empire to he faies, requeft Stephen the Pope to punifh and de- maPtin ?°I e the Bi{ho P of ArUs > as we llia11 fee quicqJd hereafter? Had he that authority ( think nmpoffidet you) from an Heathen Emperour ? See *lmu, 7{p- now how little your Allegations are to the ligion: te- p Ur p f e . vvhere you nominate any de- by this, terminate Congregations to fatisfie my de- that the mand. - j Abyfrdcs ef Ethiopia were under the Patriarch of Alexandria anticmiy y •which Patriarch was m&tr the Authority of the 7tymaneBi(bop, as we [hall pre fently fee. J Mr, Johnfons feccnd Paper. 4 * II had no reafon to demand of you ferent congregations, of all forts and ! e &s oppofing the Supremacy, to have been . tewn vifible in all ages. I was not fo ig- )rant, as not to know, that the Nicolai- ts , Valentinians , Gnofiickj, Afanichs es, Afontanifts, Arians , Dwatifts, Neftorians y lfHtychians, Pelagians, IconocUlis, Beren- ians.Waldenftans, Albigenfes, Wicleffifis, fujjits, Lutherans, Calvinifis> &c. each lowing others had fome kind of vifibili- , divided and dillrafted each to his own fpeftive age, fromoiir time totheApo- plts, in joymng their heads and hands to- her againft the Popes Supremacy. But )ecaufc thefe could not be called one fttc- effive Congregation of Chriftians, being all ;ether by the ears amongft themfelves • fhould not have thought it a demand be- seeming a Scholar, to have required fuch a ibility as this. Seeing therefore all you determinatcly nominate , are as much different as thefe- pardon me, if I take it : for any fatisfadion at all to my de- mand, or acquittance of your obligation, -ng me a vifible fucceflion of any one Congregation of Chriftians, of the fame belief, profeffion, and communion, for the defigned time, oppofing that Supremacy, and 44 #>"•• John Cons fee end Paper. and you will have fatisfied ; but till that b done, I leave it to any equal judgement, whether my demand be fatisfied or no. You anfwer *o this, That all thofe., who are nominated by you^are farts of the Catholikt Church, andfo one Congregation. But Sir, give me leave to tell you, that in your prin- ciples, you put both the Church of RomeM 3nd your felves, to be parts of theCatho-i | like Church ; and yet fure you account them not one Congregation of Chriftians, feeing by feparation one from another they are made two : or if you account them one\ why did you feparate your fel ves, and ftill remain feparate from communion with the Ruman Church ? why poffeffed you your m felvesof the Bifhopricks and Cures of your own Prelates and Paftors, they yet living in Queen Elizabeths time ? and drew both your felvesand their other fubjefts from all fubje&ion to them , and communion with them ? Is this difunion, think you, fit to make one and the fame Congregation of you and them? is not charity, fubordina- tion, and obedience to the fame flate and* government required as well to make one Congregation of Chriftians, as it is required to make one Congregation of Common- wealths men ? Though therefore you do ac- count \M r i Joh n fons fecotid Paper* 4$ xnint them all parts of the Catholike' church, yet you cannot make them in your principles one Congregation ot Chriftians. Secondly, your poficion is not true • the particulars named by you neither are, nor :anbe parts of the Catholike Church, un- .efs you make Avians, and Pelagians, and Donatifts, pa*:ts of the Catholike Church : which were either to deny them to be He- reticks and Schifmaticks ^ or to affirm, that HereticKs and Schifmaticks, feparating rhemf elves from the communion of the Catholike Church, notwithftanding tbat|? ec .^^ feparation, do continue parts of the Catho- ^Rcliei- like Church. For who knows not that the ns 3 ^ 99I Ethiopians to this day ar.^ * Eutychian He- ^9', 491* recicks. And a great part of tbofe Greeks & " c - and Armenians, who deny the Popes Supre- 5 . cl t ^ ac C macy, are infe&ed with the Herefie <)£ they'd*? Nt florins , and all of them profefs generally cumclfe all thofe points of taith with us agamlt you, *e« cha? wherein you differ from us • and deny to en * he ' > J eighth day, they ufe Mofaical ceremonies. They mention not the council of Cd/cft/0* 5 becaufe (faies he) they are Eutychians and Jacobites, and confefles that their Patriarch is in fubjection to the Patri- arch of Alextuidria, &c. See more of the Chofti, Jacobites, Maronitcs, &c. p. 493,4^4. where he confefles that many of them are now fubject to the Pope* and have renounced their old errors. com- 4$ Mr. Johnfons fecond Paper. communicate with you, or to efteem yon other then Hereticks and Schifmaticks, un- lefs you both agree with them in thofe differences of faith, andfubjeft your felve* to the obedience of the Patriarch of Con ftantinofle, as to the chief Head and Go vernour of all Chriftian Churches next under Chrift • and confequently as muct « avice-Chrift, in your account, as the Pope can be conceived to be. Sec, if you pleafe. 'Hieremias Patriarch of Conftantinofle, hi< Anfvver to the Lutherans, especially in the beginning and end of the book • Atta Theo- logorum Wittebergenfium^ &c. and Sir Ed- ypyn Sands, of this iubjed, in his Survey f. 232,233,242, &c. Either therefore you muft make the Eutychians and Neftorians no Hereticks. andfo contradidthe Oecumenical Coun- cils of Efhefpts , and Chalcedon , whici condemned them as fuch • and the conieni of all Orthodox Chriftians, whoever fina efteemed them no others • or you mud make condemned Hereticks parts of the Cathoiick Church, againft all antiquity and Chriftianity. And for thofe Greek neer Conflantinople, who are not infe&ec with Neftorianiim and Eutychianifm, yet in the Procefiion of the Holy Ghoft 3 againfl bott Mr. Johnfons fe cond Paper. 47 both us and you, they muft be thought to maintain raanifeft Herefie 1 it being a point in a fundamental matter of faith, the Trini- ty ; and the difference betwixt thofe Greeks and the Weftern Church, now for many hundred of years, and in many General Councils efteemed and defined to be real and great •, yea fo great, that the Greeks left the Communion of the Roman Church upon that difference alone, and ever efteemed theBifhopof Rome and his party Sec Nilus to have fallen from the true faith, and loft ° n . *£ his ancient authority by that fole pretend- * ed error ^ and the Latins alwaies efteemed the Greeks to be in a damnable error , in maintaining the contrary to the do&rine of the Weftern or Roman Church in that particular. And yet fure they understood what they held, and how far they differed one from another, much better then feme Novel writers of yours, who preft by force of Argument, have no other way left them to maintain a perpetual vilibility, then by extenuating that difference of Procejficn betwixt the Greek and Latin Church,which fo many ages before Proteftancy fprung up, was efteemed a main fundamental error by both parts, caufed the Greeks to abandon all fubje&ion and Communion to the Bi- fhops &fi tMr. Johnfcns fccotod Paper fhops of Home ^ made them fo divided the one from the other, that they held each other Hereticks v Schifmaticks, and de- fercors of the true faith, as they, continue ftill to do to this day, and /yet you will hav.e them both to be parts of the . Catholike Church. , [ . But when you have made the beft you can of thefe Greeks, Armenians , Ethiopians, Proteftants, whom you firft name , yoa neither have deduced, nor can deduce them fucceffively in all ages till Chrift, as a diffe- rent Congregation of Christians , from that which holds the Popes Supremacy y which was my propofition. Por in the year 1 500. thofe who became the firft Proteitants,were not a Congregation, different from thofe who held that fupremacy; nor in the year 500. were the Greeks a vjfible Congregati- on different from it ^ nor in the year 300. were the Neltorians 5 nor in the year, 20 0r Eaft - ari ap.A- ern Church, who fided with Arius, before than. Apo* they declared themfelves to be Arians, fent leg i. fag. their Legates to Julius Bifhop of Rome to Vh'rA have their caufe heard before him againft lib I cap* 1 '. ^ a * nt ^thanafius : the fame did Saint Atha- AthanafJ ' nafiv* to defend himfelf againft them : Apot. i. which Arian Bilhops having underftood Zo^em. lib. from Julius, that their Accufations againft 3.cap.j. £ a j nt AthantfiHSi upon due examination of both parties, were found groundlefs and falfe, required ( rather fraudulently, then fenoufly) to have a fuller Tryal before a General Council at Rome ; which ( to take away all fhew of excufe from them ) Pope Julius affcmbled.Saint Athanafius was fummoned by the Pope to appear before him cflf r. Johnfons fectnd Paper. 5 1 him and the Councill in Judgement : which Tne A P- he prefcntly did ; ( and many other Eaitern £: aI *f Bifhops unjultly acculed by the Anans from l y ut aforefaid, had recourfeto Rome with him J Council as andexpe&ed there a year and a half : All to his which time his Accufers (though alfo fum-i u ^SV*[ moned ) appeared not, fearing they ffcouid "^ at c ^. C be condemned by the Pope and his Conn- mer i s for- till. Yet they pretended not (asProte- ced«oac- ftantshave done in thefe lift ages of the knowledge tings of England) That Conftxntim, thej^J^J Arian Emperour of the Eaft, was Head, or ^ * 93% ' chief Governour over their Church in all and the c aufes Ecclefiaftical - o and confequently whole that the Pope had nothing to do with them, ^"Jr ^ but only pretended certain frivolous ex- ac kn 0W - 3 cufes to delay their appearance from one kdged the time to another. Where it is worth the right of noting, that Julius^ reprehending the faid tQ ^Ap- Arid* Bifhops ( before they publiihed ^° Tbeo- doret to his Biflioprkk, by force of an order given upon that Appeal by Leo Poft to reftorchim. Concerning Saint Ath.mnfius being judged and righted bv Julius Pope, Cbamitr* cic.p. 497. acknowledges the matter of fad to be fo, but againft al 1 antiquty, pretends that judgment to have been unjuft. Which, had it bcenfo, yet it (hews a true power of judging in the Pope, though then unduly executed , other wife Saint Aihj.'r. their Herefie, and fo taking them to be Catholikes) forcondemriiigSaim Athna- fiiu in an Eaftern Councill , gathered by them before they had acquainted the Bi- fhop of Rome with fo important a caufe, ufeth thefe words, An ign&ri eft is hanc ccn- fnetudinem ejfe, ut prirnum nobts fcribatur •, ut bine quod jpiftnm eft, dtfiniri fejfit, &c. Are joh ignorant , faith he, that this is the cufkome,toTvriteto us firft, Thtt htnee that, which is jnft may be defined, &c. where moft cleerly it appears, that it belonged particu- larly to the Biftiop of Rome to pafs a defini- tive fentence even againft the Bifhops of the Eaftern, or Greek Church ^ which yet is more confirmed by the proceedings of Pope Innocent the firft, about 12. hundred years Wceph* lib. ^ n ce, in the Cafe of Saint Chrj/foftome : 13.cap.34. Where firft Saint Chrjfcftome appeals to Jnnocentiw from he Cou ;cill aflembled at cbmhr. Constantinople ,wberein he was condemned. cit.p. 498. Secondly Inmcentim annulls his condem- faycs,other Bifhops reftored thofe who were wrongfully depofed, as \ etl as the Pope Which though it w.re fo, yet never was there any fingle Bifhop fave the Pope, who reflored any, who were out of their refpeftiveDiocefs,or Patriarchatcs 5 but always col I e&ed to- gether in a Synod,by common voice, and that in regard only of their neighbouring Bifhops- whereas the Bifhop of T^eme by his folc and ftngle authority , rcftored Bifhops wrongfully depofcdall the Church over. , * nation, Mr JohnCohs fecovd Paper. jj nation, and declares h<"m innocent. Thrid- Jy, he ^Excommunicato Atticus Bifhop of* Cunftantimple^ and Theophilm Bifhop of Alexandria for persecuting Saint Chrj- fofiome. Pourthly, after Saint Ckrj[ to the legats of Pope Leo, order, the profeflionof their Eaitb. lsrffly, the Popes Legats fate in the firft place of theCouncil before all thepatriarchs. SSSl ''*-") TF°» rthl yi rhe Y prohibited / by his itttml-*. order given them) That Bio f cor us Patri- arch of Alexandria, and chief upholder of the Eutychians, fhould fit in the Council! ; but be prefented as a guilty perfon to be judged ; becaufe he had celebrated a Coun- cil! . T^r Mr. Johnfons fccond Paper. 5 5 cill in the Eaftcrn Church without the co n- fent of the Bifhop of Rome -, which ( faid , which the Legats ) never was done before, nor could could not be done lawfully. This order of Pope Ze^bebyrea- was prefently put in execution by confent f° n °f ** of the whole Councill, and Diof corns was ^tJuth judged and condemned - 5 his condemnation ^cb. wa$ and depofition being pronounced by the then in it $ Popes Legats, and after fubfehbred by the& r the Council!. Fifthly the Popes Legats pro-^J]£ h jJ nounced the Church of Rome to be * Ca- many put omnium Ecclefiaru?n,the Head of rf//oth:rs in Churches, before the whole Council, and F,^e x _ x none contradicted them. Sixthly, all the'f'^ 3 ^ Fathers affembled in that Holy Councill, in Jf ^ n rC their Letter to Pope Leo, acknowledged pU re'and themfelves to be his children, and wrote to ho!y,and none In the time of fuftinian the Emperq&r, Agapct Pop in CoKflvriinopk) againft. the will bom of the Emper< him as to their Father. Seventhly,theyl)iWTr y cc bly begged of him, that he would grant;^^ that the Patriarch of Confiantinojd^ might t heChurch of Rente* >e, even >erour and Emprefs, depofed A/i'hymiM, and ordained Mtnnis in his place. Libera?, id Brtv'uti to. cap .ii. MaiutLhiM. C omes inCbro- mco. Concil. C on ft cl ' ltl)l ' fab Menna. acl. 4. And the fame S t. Greg. C. 7. SP.6J. declares that botli the Eaiperour and Bi- fhopof Coxftvuintple acknowledged that the Church of Conflan* tinoplcwzs fubje&tothe Sec of l(am\ And /. 7. Ep. 57. Et al:bi pronounces, that in cafe of falling into offences he knew »o* 4 Bifhop which was not fubjeft to the bifliop of Rome. *\ f E 4 Hajie \ 5 6 Mr. J ohnfons/ittW Paper. have the firit place among the Patriarch*, after that of Rome : which notwithftand- ing that the Council! had confented to (as had alfo the Third General Councill of Ephefu* done before ) yet they efteem- ed their grants to be of no fufficient force, untill they were confirmed by the Pope* ; AhdLeo thought not fit to yield to their petition, againft the exprefs ordination of < theFirft Councill of Nice ; where Alexan- dria had the preheminence, as alfo Antioch and Hierttfalem, before that ofConftantino- fie. Saint Cyril of Alexandria^ though he wholly dilallowediVV/?0r;*tf his doftrine,yet he would not break off Communion with him, till Cele^inm the Pope had con- demned him : whofe Cenfure he requi- red and expe&ed. Neftoritis alfo wrote to Celeftine, acknowledging his Authority , and expecting from him the Cenfure of his doftrine. Celeftinus condemned Neftorins % and gave him the fpaceof ten daies to re- (o)St.^- pent, after he had received his condemna- guflin. tion. All which had effeft in the Eaftern Tom. i Church, where Neftorim was Patriarch of PoSiSS Con fi*» tiHg P le ' (°) After this Saint QnV/ epift.%. ad having received Pope Leo's Letters ,wherein hlefl'miim. he gave power to Saint Cyrill to execute 1/ his Mr. Johnfons fec$nd P*$cr. 57 his condemnation againft Neftorius, and to fend his condemnatory letters to him > gathered a Council of his next Biftiops, and fent Letters and Articles to be fubferibed, with the Letters or Celefiine to Nefiorius : which when Nefiorius had received, he was fo far from repentance, that he accufed St. Cyril inthofe Articles, to be guilty of the Herefic of ApoRinaris : fo that St. Cyril being alfo accuied of Herefie, was barred from pronouncing fentence againft Nefio- rius^ fo long as he ftood charged with that Accufation. Theodofius the Emperour, fee- ing the Eaftern Church embroyled inthefc difficulties, writes to Pope Celefiine about the affembling of a general Council at Ephe- fus, by Petroriius afterwards Biftiop of Bononia (as is manifeft in his life written by Sigonius) Pope Celefiine in his Letters to Theodofius^ not only profelfeth his confent to the calling of that Council, but alfo pre- fcribeth in what form it was to be celebrat* cd • as Firmtis Bifhop of Csfarea in Op- padocia teftified in the Council of Ephefus* Hereupon Theodofius fent his Letters to affemble theBifhops both of the Eaft and Weft to that Council. And Celefiine fent his I egats thither, with order not to exa- mine again in the Council the caufe of Ne (tori us, < 5 8 Mr> Johnfons [econd Paper. Neftorius, but rather to put Celeftines conr demotion of him, given the year before, into execution. St. Cyril Bifliop ot Alexandria being conftituted by Celefline\ his chief Legate ordinary in the Eaft, byji reafon of that preheminency, and primacy}] of his See after that of Rome , prefided in the Council: yet fo, that Philip, who was| only a Priell and no Bifhop, by reafon that he was fent Legates a Latere from Celcftine, • and fo fupplied his place as he was chief Bifhopofthe Church, fubferibed thefirft, even before St. Cyril, and all the other Legats and Patriarchs. In the fixth Aftion of this holy Council, Juvenilis Patriarch of Hiernfalem , having underftood the con- tempt, which John Patriarch of Antijcb, who was cited before the Council, {hewed of theBifhops and the Popes Legats there affembled, expre(Ted himfelf againft him in thefe words, ^uod Apoftolica ordinatione & AntiqHA Traditione fwhich were no way oppofed by the Fathers there prefent) Antiochena fedes ferpetm a Romans dirigere- tur judkarernrque , That by Apoftolical ordination and ancient Tradition the See of Antioch was perpetually dire&ed and judged by the See of Rome : which words not only evidence the precedency of place, as Mr. Johnfoas fe cond Paper* %$ is Dr. Hammond would have it , but of )0wcr and judicature in the Bifhop of Rome over a Patriarch of the Eaftern "hurch •, and that derived from the time md ordination of the Apoftles. The "ouncil therefore fent their decrees, with heir condemnation of Neflorius, to Pope Zeleftine, who prcfently ratified and con- irmed them. Not long after this, in the year 445. Palestinian the Emperour makes this mani- "cfto of the moft high Ecclefiaftical authori- y of the See of Rome^ in thefe words : c Seeing that the merit of St. Peter , who is c the Prince of the Epifcopal Crown, and c the Dignity of the City of Rome , and no c lefs the authority of the holy Synod, hath 1 eftablifhed the primacy of the Apoftoli- : cal See, left preemption (hould attempt : any unlawful thing againft tbe authority 'of that See, (for then finally will the^ cc * 5 ? at c peace of the Churches be preferved every B e "f^ : where, if the whole univerfality acknow- in the year 1 ledge their Governour ) when thefe 44$. 1 things had been hitherto inviolably ob- 1 ferved, &c . Where he makes the fuc- reflion from St. Peter to be the firft foun- dation of the Roman Churches primacy ^ md his authority to : be, not only in place, but 60 Mr. Johnfons fccend Paper. but in power and Government over the] whole vifible Church: And adds pitfent- ly, that the definitive fentencc of the! Bifhopof Rome, given againft atiy French] Bifhop, was to be offeree through France , eveti without the Empcrours Letrers Pat- tents. ' For what /ball not be lawful for the Authority of fo great a Bijh.^p to exercife upon the Churches ? And then adds his Im- perial precept, in thefe words. "But this cc occafion hath provoked alfo our com- mand, that hereafter it (hall not be law- ful, neither for Hilarius (whom to be ftill entituled a Biftiop, the iole humanity of the meek Prelate (id eft, the Biftiop of Rome) permits ) neiiher tor any other to mingle arms with Ecclefiaftical matters, or to refill the commands oftheBifliop of Rome, &c. We define by this our per- petual decree, that it (hall neither be lawful for die French Bifhops, nor for c - thofe of other provinces, againft the an- lc cient cullom, to attempt any thing with- cc out the authority of the venerable Pope Ce of the eternal City : But let it be for a "law to them and to all, whatfoever the ^'authority of the Apoitolick See hath de- " termined, or (hall determine. So that "what Bilhop foever, being called to the iC Tribunal CI cc cc CC cc cc cc cc cc Cc ji/^ Johnfons fecwd Taper. 6i "Tribunal of :he Rowan Biihop , fha!l " reeled to co e, is to be compelled by cl the Governour of che lame Province, to "prefent himklf before km. Which evi- 1 dently proves, hai chehgheii, Um've-fal, Eccl.fiaftical Judpe and Governour was 3 and ever is to be the Bifhop ot Rome : which the Council of Chalredcn before mentioned, plainly owned, when writing co Pope Leo they fay, Thou Governefi u* 3 as the head doth the members ^ contributing thy €p:ft. Con- Zood "bill bj thofe -which hold thy place. Be- ciLadLcon. hold a Primacy, not only of Precedency, a $\ f but of Government and Authority . which Lerixenfis confirms, ccntr. Haref. cap. 9. where fpeaking of Stephen Pope, he faies, Dignttm, ut opinor, exiftimans, fi reliquos :rrnts tantum fidci dcvoticnc, quantum loci tuthoritate, [up rabat : ei;c ruing it (as I liinkj a thing worthy of h.mfelf, if he bvercame all others asmichtnthe devo- ionot faith, as lie did in the Authority of lis place. And co confirm what ih:s uni- rerfal Authoricy was-, he affirms, that he ent a Law, Decree, or C ommand into Africa, (S^nxitJ That in matter of re- >aptization of Hereticks nothing (hould be nnovatedj which was a manii um^nc Ibis Spiritual Authority over thofe of A 1 €i Mr. Johnfons [ccond Paper* Africa } and a paritate rationis , over all others. I will (hut up all with that which was publickly pronounced , and no way contradicted, and confequently affented to in the Council of Epbefus, (one of the four firft general Councils ) in this matter, Tern. 2. Ccncil. pag. 327. Aft. I. where Philip, Prieft and Legate of Pope Celeftine^ lkycs thws, cC Gratia* tgimus fanfta vene- " randaque fynodo, quod Uteris fanfti beati- lc que Papa mflri vobis recitatis^ fanftas - 30. jhad committed no fault in tranfgrefling and wnei £ Hc " contemning his command. By thefe tefti-"^^ 1 monies it will appear, that what you are t kksre* pleafed to fay, That the weft part of the penting, Catholike Church hath been againft us to this werc re ~ day y and all for many hundred of years, is far J^ into rom truth : feeing in the time of the holy tae Oecumenical Councils of Efhcfus and Church, Chalcedon^ the univerfal confent of the up 00 f°- vholc Catholike Church was for us in this len i n P ro ; mile, and > inr - publike protcftati- that they would never any more feparate/VflW* but alwaies main in the unity of the Catholike Church, and communion all things with the Bifiiop of Rome. As ^4 Mr. Johnfons [econdPapcrl As to what you fay of Congregation of Chriftians in the beginning, I anlwer, I took the word Chriftians in a large fenfe, com- prehending in it all thofe (as it is vulgarly taken^ who are Baptized and profefs to believe in Chrift 5 and are diftinguifhed from Jews, Mahumetansand Heathens,under the denomination of Chriftians. What you often fay of an univerfal Monarch,^, if you take Monarch for an Imperious fcle Commander , as temporal Kings are, we acknowledge no fuch Mo- narch in the Church : if only for one who hath received power from Chrift, in meek- nefc, charity, and humility to govern all the reft, for their own eternal good, as bre- thren or children, we grant it. What alfo you often repeat of a Vice* Chrift , we much diflike that title,, as proud and infolent, and utterly difclaim from it ^ neither was it ever given by any iufficienc Authority to our Popes, or did they ever accept of it. As to the Council of Conftance, they ne ver queftioned the Supremacy of the Pope, as ordinary chief Governour of all Biftiops and people in the whole Church : nay they exprefly give it to Martinm guintus when he was chofen. B iM r. John /on s [econd Paper. 6$ But in extraordinary cafes , efpecially when it is doubtful who is true Pope, as it was in the beginning of this Council, till Afartintts Quintus was chofen : Whether. any extraordinary power be in a general Council, above that ordinary power of the Pope : which is a queftion difputed by fome amongft our felves, but touches not the matter in hand j which proceeds only of . the ordinary and conftant Supream Paftor ofaltChriftians, abftra&ing from extraor- dinary tribunals and powers, which are feldom found in the Church, and colle&ed only occafionally, and upon extraordinary accidents. Thus honoured Sir, T haveas much as my occafions would permit me, hafteneda re- ply to your anfwer^ and if more berequi- iite, it (hall not bedenyed. Only pleafe to give me leave to tell- you , that I cannot conceive my Argument yet anfwered by all you have faid to it. Feb. i. 1658. William Johnfon. Sir, It was the 21. of January, before j^ur Anfypqr came to mj bands • and though my f 66 Mr. John Tons feccnd Tdper. Reply was made ready by me the third inftarit % yet 1 hsve found ft great difficulties to get it transcribed^ that it "tods not pojfikle to tranf- iv.it it to you before nowj But I hope here- after I fhafl find Scribes more at leafure. I mxft defire j:H to exenfe what errors yon find in the Copy which I fend ^ As alfo, that being unwilling to mtk^ a farther delay , lam i enforced to fend a Copy which hath in it more interlineations then would otherwife become me to fend to aperfon of jour worth. Tet I cannot do ubt^ but your Candor will pdfs by a 11 things of this nature. I am Sir 7 Your very humble fervant, feb. 15.1658. William Johnf on* Worthy Sir, J haze now expeEled neer three moneths for yesr reyynder to the Reply which I made to that A^wer which you wtre pleafed to fend y and return to nj Argument a naming the Lhvrch vfChrift , tut as yet nothing h.th ap- peared. I mtft cenfefs, I have wondered at it, cenfidtring the earn^ftnefs which appeared iny r H*t the fi r ft y to proceed with freed in 4 bufinefs ofthn nature ; what the impediment hath Mr. Jobnfons fee end Paper. Cj hath been, I am only left to guefs : but cer- tainly truth is Firong, and it will not be found an eafie thing to off of e her while we keep clofe to form. lam now necefptated ^o go out of London-, fo that if jour Payers come inn* j tbfence, I (hall hope j>u will have the patience to exptft unt ill they can befentfrom London tome^andmy Anfwers returned by the way of London : but I do engage not to mak^ a delay longer then the circun.ftances of the pUce and times PjaII enforce. Sir, / do highly honour and efteem y«ur parts and per/on • and fhall be very gl..d to bring that bufinefs to an handfome iffne which bath been fo calmly and foberly profecuted, Jam an enemy to paffion^ and as I have hi- therto found you fweet and gentle in y r ur pro- ceedings towards me, fo fhallyou alwaies find me. Worthy Sir, Tour friend tofervevou, May i. 1659, William Jonnfon* Sir, Be pleafed to return your Anfwer % Papers or Letters which you intend for. me, to the farne place to which you direlied your former-^ by whhh means , I foallbe fecureto receive, V 1 them 68 To Mr. T.L, {wh§ called we to this work.) thtnfat mj houfe, which is four/core wiles from London. To Mr. T. L. (who called me to this yvorkj) Sir, T Hough I am a ftranger to you, I thought meet to take notice of the Letters which you fent your friend here (T« H.) It feems you urge hard for a Re- ply, and intimate fomewhat of triumph in 'my delay; you fpeak as an incompetent Judge. God is the Matter of my time and work \ and him I muft ferve : and not negleft his greater work, for fuch trivial objeftions as your friend hath fent me, which are anfwered over and over by many fo long ago. Had you read Blondel, Mo- linem de novitate Papifmi, whital^er , Si- brandus ,Lubbertus ^Chamicr ', Abbots, Cra^ kenthorf, Spdatenfts, or one of many that have confuted them, you would fure call for no more ; Or if in Englifo you had read Dr. Field, Dr. White ^ yea, or but Sir ZJumpherj Lind (to pafs by multitudes^ you might have k^n their vanity. Yea plainly read impartially my two books againft To Mr.T.L. (who called me to this work.) 6p againft Popery, and be aPapift if you can. But it feems -you take it for a poor anfwer to be referred to books. Do not fear it. But yet let me tell you, that my hand is not more legible then my printed books : and if I had fent you this in print, would ttatt have made it a poor anfwer ? Or ra- ther, is not this a poor exception, and (hews that it is not truth that is lookt after : for truth may be printed as well as written. If you be deceived by the men of the Papal way, let me yet intreat you, but to read over thofe two books ("The fafe Religion, and the Key for Catholikes) : If your foul be not worth fo much labour, take your courfe : I did my duty. But I muft fay, that it is a doleful cafe that profeffors are fo ungrounded, that fuch vanities (hould carry them away from Catholike verity and unity, to a faftion that ufurps the name of Catholikes. To be free with you, I think it is that pride and levity that brings them firffc to feparation from our Churches into Sefts , and the guilt which they there incur , that pre- pareth profeffors to be fo far forfaken of God, as to be given up to believe a lie, and toturnPapifts. O dreadful cafe I that one Biftiop can- F 3 not jo TeMr.l \L.(whccaDeJwetoibiswbrk.) not fwell in pride, but men muft make a Religion of his pride / yea and make a Catholixe Church of it ! yea and plead for It, and make the fin their own • yea con. tlemn'ail Chriftians that lift not themfelves under this Prince of pride. He is culpably, if not wilfully blind, that hath read S#f- pture and Church hiftory , ■ and knoweth not, that the Pope for three hundred years after Chrift, was not the crca:ure that now be is i nor had for molt of that time any more Government over other Bifhops, then I have over neighbour Paftors : and after chat time, he was no more an univerfal Head, or Governour, or Vicar of Chrift, then the Archbifhopof Canterbury was «, having indeed a far larger Diocefs then he, but never was more then t he iwe! led Pri- mate of one National (Imperial,) Church, Whert Synods began to be gathered out of a Principality (che Emperours defiring that means of unity within their Empire), the prideof the Prelates fee them prefemlya Striving for fuperiority , who {hould fie iigheft, and write his name firft, and have the largelt Diocefs, &g ! And now men make a Relgion of the fruits of this abon-.in'abie- pride. ' What are all their ^iiputings ior^ and all this ftir that they make t$ Mr.T.L. {who csBed me to thts mrk.) 71 makein the world, but to fee up one man orcr all the earth ? and that to do a fpiritu- allwork, which confiiteth not with force, but is managed on conscience ; One wretch- ed man mull govern the Antipodes on the other fide of the earth, that is indeed uncapable of truly and juitly Governing the City of R$me ic felf. Popes, that their own Councils have condemned forravifh- ing maids and wives at their doors, ior Murders, Simony, Drunkennefs, Herefie, denying the Refurredion and the life to come (thae is,being noChriftians)thefefor- footh muft be che univerfal Governours, or we are all undone ; and we are damned if we believe it not : O how dreadful! are che effects of fin •, and how great a judgement is a blinded mind ! This comes ot falling into Seds and parties, which leads men imo the gulf of che moft odious Schifm (even Popery) in the world. Eut if you are engaged in this party, its two co one but you are presently made partial, and will not fo much as read what isagaii.ft them •, or will believe chem it they do buc tell you chat we write lies ^ when they are things done in the open fun, and which they cinnoc confu.c, nor dare attempt, kft they manneit their (haim\ Y 4 laKC HP 7* To Mr.H. L. (who called mtto thu work.) Take from them their Clergies vaft Do- minions, Principalities, Lands and Lord- ftiips, Riches and worldly Honours, with which they fo much abound, and then try how many will plead for the Pope: then they'l fay, If Bad be a God, let him plead for himfelf. But I confefs, I have little hopes of turning any of them, though I could {hew it them written by an Angel from heaven that Popery is a deceit : for the Scripture that's above Angelical autho- rity declareth it • and by making it a nofe of wax, they take it as if it were not fenfe, nor intelligible without the Popes interpre- tation (which in difficult cafes he dare not give,). They cry up the Churchy and when we would have them ftand to the Church, they fhamefully turn their backs^ and when two or three parts of the Churches through the world areagainft the Papal Soveraign- ty, they refufe them as Hereticks or Schif- rnaticks. They cry up Tradition^ and when we offer them in the main point to be tried By it, they difclaim thj Tradition of rwo or three parts of the univerfal Church as being all Hereticks. And may not any Se& do fo too as honeftly as they ? yea among the ignorant that know not Chaffe from Corn, ttiey havefomeof them 'the faces to per- fwade To Air-T. L. (rvh called mt to this work.) 7 3 fwade them that their Church is the greater W/of the Chriftian world! when they know :hey fpeak notorioufly falfly, or elfe they ire unworthy to fpeak of fuch things that :hey underftand not. But to what purpofe fhould any words :>e ufed with men, that have taught fo great i part of the world, not to believe their ?yes and other fenfes ! Can any writing nake any matter plainer to you, then that Bread is Bread, and Wine is Wine, when /ou fee them, and tail:, and eat, and drink :hem ? And yet their general Councils ap- proved by the Pope, have made it an Arti- :le of their faith , that the whole fub- -tanceof the Bread and Wine is turned into he Body and Blood of Chrift, fo that there s lefc no Bread or Wine, but only that colour, quantity and taft that before be- nged to it. And if you know not Bread when you eat it, or Wise when you drink it, and when the fenfes of all the found men in the world concur with yours, is it not vain for me, or any man to difpute with you ? Can you have any thing brought to a furer judgement then to all your fenfes? And yet no doubt but your leducers can fay fomething to prove that Bread is not Bread when you fee and eat it : No wonder then 74 'T* Mr * T* L Avtho caffeJme to this vom . ) then if they canconfocc me. But do they indeed be! eve themfelves <* hows it pofli- ble? there is no exercife or realon, and belief that fuppofeth not the certainty of fenfe. If I cannot know Bread and Wine when I fee, touch, caft chem ^ then cannot 1 know the Pope, the Councils, the Scri- pt ore, the Prieit, or any thing clfe. If you think to let go this point of Popery and hold the reft, you know not what Popery is: for a Pope and Council having deter- mined K, you are damned by them for de- nying the faith: and if you depart from the infallibility of their Rule and judge in pomes of faith, oratlejift from the obliga- tion of ir,in one thirig, they will confefs to you that }ou may as well do it in more ^ Fdtfe in this, and certain in nothing, is their I own condition. Sir, I have not been un- willirg ro know the tnuh,having a foul to feve oriole as well as you, and having as much reafon to be loth to perifh. If you have fo far forfeiced the Grace of God, as roeerly to follow the pride of a pretended YkcCkrift (that hath turned do&rine into error, worfhtp into fuperftition and dead formality, light into darknefs , difcipline into confufion mixt with tyranny) ^ if inecrly to let up one Tyrant over the con- fciences to Mr.T !>X*>bo caUcJl me to this mrk.) y < fciences (and bodies tooJ of all believers in the worid, you can fall into a Sed:, deny Scripture, Reafon, the Judgement and Tradition ofmoft of the Church, and your own and all mens eye-fight, taft and other fenfes, the Lord have mercy on you, if you be not paftit : I have done with you, yet remaining An unfeigned defirer of jour Welfare , and lament er of the Apoft^cies *nd giddi* tiefs oftbefe times , j Mr.]i$. 1659. Richard Baxter. Did jo u know what it is^ bj looft andf l~e aUegt.tiuns , to be put to read fa manj } ,s (in grext p>irt) in foli , 1 try wh thtr the alltcger J>J true cr ] l/e , you Would net e.xptth that Ifljould return an s.njwcr, and reaafo much effo v *.< nj Irs in enj Ifs then ten or eleven dates , m 1 thinl^ b^tbtecm 1 all tlat I have had to write and read fo 1 much: The 7* The Reader mufitake notice that I wroh\ the former Letter to the perfou that fent\ Mr. Johnfons Letters , with a charitable] iesknfie> that if he were himfelf in doubt, he\ mi*ht be revived : But in his return h$\ futj dij 'claimed popery , and affured me, that\ it is for the fake of fome friends that he deftredl 9*r labour, and not for his own. R.B. The 17 The %e]jly to Mr. Johnfons fecond Paper, Sir, TH E multitude and urgency of my employments gave me not leave till this day (AUyz.) fo much as to read over all your Papers ■ But I {hall be as loth to break off our Difputation, as you can be, though perhaps neceflity may fome- time caufe fome weeks delay. And again, I profefs, my indignation againft the Hypo- crital Jugling of this age, doth provoke , me to welcome fo ingenuous and candid a difputantas yourfelf, with great content. But I muft confefsalfo, that I wasthelefs haftyin fending you this Reply, becaufe I defired you might have leifure to perufe a Book which I publifhed fince your laft, (A Key for Catholikes •,) feeing that I have there anfwered you already, and that more largely then I am like to do in this Reply. lor p 78 The Reply to Mr .Jcfonfons fccond Paper. Tor the (harpnefs of that I muft craveyour $ patience ^ the perfons and caufe I thought required it. Ad i m . What explications were madeh'i to your Friend of your Thefis, I could j* not take notice of, who had nothing but 1 your writing to Anfwer. » 2. If you will not be precife in Arguing^ i you had little reafon to cxped: ( much lefs p 10 ftriftly to exaft ) a precife Anfwer ^ a which cannot be made as you prefcribed, to an Argument not precife. 3.I therefore exped accordingly that! the unlearned be not made the Judges ofl \ a difpute which/they are not fit to judge of • feeing you defire us to avoid their ' road. 4. Again I fay, if you will not be precife in arguing, I can hardly be fo in anfwering.. And by Q a Congregation ofChriftians ] you may mean \_Chriftians foliticallj related, to we Head,'] whecherChnit,or the Pope; But the word. .£ Ajfemblies J exprefTecfe their a&uall Afiembllng together, and fo excludeth all Chriftians that are or were Members of no particular ajfllmblies, from having Relation as Members to Chriil(our : Head J or the Pope ( your Head,) and fo from being of the Congregation^ as c K fflj to Mr. Johnfons feetnd fjpar. yp you Call 3 The Church xnitwr* a. 5, I had great rcafon to avo : d the frare fan equiv< cation, or ambiguity, of wh th ou gave me caufe of jea ouiie by your whAtforver~] as I told }ou : as ieeming d intmjace a falfe fuppoution : To your i^Ianfw.r,!* is unli\e> and ltil! more timates tie talfe fupp*>iicion« [WbAtfi- } er Congrtgati n cf nun is the Conm.**- Xedth sf EngUnd~\ is a phrafe that u upp>ie J" there U dCongrtgutionof Chriftir s fumvocaliy