5 '< S * +5, ns 5 TR hati X h i K ' 1 ‘i tjV •■ ' ' , 5 5 . • •’ f CONFERENCE BETWEEN £tn Stobocate for anb an Opponent OF THE PRACTICE OF BURNING WIDOW'S ALIVE, Advocate . — I am surprised that you endea- vour to oppose the practice of Concrema- tion and Postcrcmation of Widows * as Ion* * S observed in this country ? Opp orient, —Thost who have no reliance ora the Shastur, and those who take delight in the self-destruction of women, may well wonder * Whea S Widow « *b..at from her hu.band at the time of hil d,alh> ,h * ia certai « «"• bum her. .If alon ff with *ome reiiqua r.pr.*«nting > the dcceand. Thi. praetic. i. called Uuoo- «*r*B sr Ps.t.r.aatioB, f 2 ) ehat we should oppose that suicide which is forbidden by all the Shasturs and by every iraceof men. * Advocate.— You have made an improper assertion in alleging that Concremation and Postcremation are forbidden by the Shas- £ur§. Hear what Unggira and other Saints have said on this subject : 44 That woman who on the death of her husband ascends the burning pile with him, is exalted to heaven as equal to Uroondhiiti. “ She who follows her husband to another world shall dwell in a region of joy for so many years as there arc hairs in the human body, or thirty-five millions/’ * e As a serpent-catcher forcibly draws a snake from his hole, thus raising her husband by her power, she enjoys delight along with him; ( 3 ) 41 The woman who follows her husband expiates the sins of three races/*=her father's line, her mother’s line and the family of him to whom she was given a virgin. “ There possessing her husband as her ehiefest good, herself the best of women, enjoying the highest delights, she partakes of bliss with her husband as long as fourteen Indras reign. “ Even though the man had slain a Brain min, or returned evil for good, or killed an intimate friend, the woman expiates those crimes. 6e There is no other way known for a vir- tuous woman except ascending the pile of her husband. It should be understood that there is no other duty whatever after the death of her husband.” A % C 4 ) Hear also what Vyas has written in the pt« rable of the Pigeon. ■* A Pigeon devoted to her husband, after his death entered the flames, and ascending to heaven she there found her husband.” And hear Hareet’s words. ** As long as a woman shall not burn her- self after her husband’s death, she shall be subject to transmigration in a female form . 16 Hear too what Vishnoo the Saint says : <4 After the death of her husband a wife must live as an ascetic, or ascend his pile.” Now hear the words of the Bruhmu Poo« ran on the subject of Postcremation. a< If her lord die in another country, let the faithful wife place his sandals on her breast, and pure enter the fire.” The faithful Widow is declared no suicide by this text of the Rig Ved ; “When three ( 5 ) days of impurity arc gone she obtains obse- quies.” Gotum says : " To a Brahmunee after the death of her husband, Postcremation is not permitted. But to women of the other classes it is esteemed a chief duty.” “ Living let her benefit her husband ;= dying she commits suicide.” M The woman of the Brahmun tribe that follows her dead husband, cannot, on account of her self-destruction, convey either herself or her husband to heaven,” Concremation and P«stcremation being thjus established by the words of many sacred law-givers, how can you say they are for- bidden by the Shasturs, and desire to prevent their practice ? Opponent *— All those passages you have quoted are indeed sasred law—And it is clear ( 5 ) from those authorities that if women perform Concremation or Postcremation they will enjoy heaven for a considerable time. — But attend to what Munoo and others say res- pecting the duty of Widows : M Let her emaciate her body, by living voluntarily on pure flower?, roots, and fruits, but let her not, when her Lord is deceased, even pronounce the name of another man.” •• Let her continue till death forgiving all injuries, performing harsh duties, avoiding every sensual pleasure, and cheerfully prac- tising the incomparable rules of virtue which have been followed by such women as were devoted to one only husband.” Here Munoo directs that after the death of her husband, the Widow should pass her xvhole life as an ascetic. Therefore the laws given by Unggira and the others whom you ( 7 ) have quoted, being contrary to the law of Munoo, cannot be accepted — Because the Ved declares “ Whatever Munoo has said is wholesome;” And Vrihusputi— ' “ Whatever law is contrary to the law of Munoo is not commendable.” The Ved especially declares : “ By living in the practice of regular and occa- sional duties the mind may be purified.. There- after by hearing, reflecting and constantly meditating on the Supreme Being, absorption in Bruhm may be attained. Therefore from a desire during life of future fruition, life ought not to be destroyed.'* Munoo, Yagnyuvub 2;yu and others, have then in their respective codes of laws prescribed to Widows the duties of ascetics only. By this passage of the Ved therefore, and the authority of Munoo and others, the words you have quoted from Unggira and the rest arc set aside $ for ( 8 ) by the express declaration of the former, Widows after the death of their husbands, may by living as ascetics obtain absorption. Advocate . — What you have said respecting the laws of Unggira and others that re- commend the practice of Concremation and Fostcremation we do not admit. — Because fthough a practice has not been recommended by Munoo, yet if directed by other law givers, it should not on that account be considered as contrary to the law of Munoo. For instance, Munoo directs the performance of Sundhya, but says nothing of calling aloud on the name of Huri; yetVyas prescribes calling on the name of Huri. The words of Vyas do not contradict those of Munoo. The same should be understood in the present instance, Munoo has commanded Widows to live as ascetics* Vishnoo and other Saints direct that ( 9 ) they should either live as ascetics or follow their husbands. Therefore the law of Munoo may be considered to be applicable as an al- ternative. Opponent . — The analogy you have drawn betwixt the practice of Sundhya and in- voking Huri, and that of Concremation and Postcremation, does not hold. For, in the course of the day the performance of Sun- dhya at the prescribed time does not prevent one from invoking Huri at another pe- riod — and on the other hand the invocation of Huri need not interfere with the perfor- mance of Sundhya. In this case the direc- tion of one practice is not inconsistent with that of the other. But in the case of living as an ascetic or undergoing Concremation, the performance of the one is incompatible B ( 10 ) with the observance of the other. Scil Spend- ing one’s whole life as an ascetic after the death of a husband, is incompatible with immediate Concremation as directed by Unggira and others— and vice versa, Concremation, as di- rected by Unggira and others, is inconsistent with living as an ascetic in order to attain ab- sorption. Therefore those two authorities are obviously contradictory of each other. More especially as Unggira, by declaring that “ there is no other way known for a virtuous woman except ascending the pile of her husband,” has made Concremation an indispensable duty. And Hareet also in his code, by denouncing evil consequences in his declaration that * as long as a woman shall not burn herself after the death of her husband she shall be subject to transmigration in a female form,’ has made this duty absolute. Therefore all those passages ( 1 . ) are in every respect contradictory to the Law of Munoo and others. Advocate . — When Unggira says that there is no other way for a Widow except Con- cremation, and when Hareet says that the omission of it is a fault, we reconcile their words with those of Munoo, by consider- ing them as used merely for the purpose of ex* alting the merit of Concremation, but not as prescribing this as an indispensable duty — - All these expressions, moreover, convey a pro- mise of re ward for Concremation, and thence it appears that Concremation is only optional. Opponent . — If in order to reconcile them with the text of Munoo, you set down the words of Unggira and Hareet that make the duty incumbent, as meant only to convey an exaggerated praise of Concremation, why do you not also recon- £ 2 ( 12 ) cile the rest of the words of Unggira, Hareet and others, with those in which Munoo pre- scribes to the Widow the practice of living as an ascetic as her absolute duty. And why do you not keep aloof from witnessing the des- truction of females, instead of tempting them with the inducement of future fruition. More- over in the Text already quoted, self-destruc- tion with the view of reward, is expressly pro- hibited. Advocate . — What you have quoted from Munoo and Yagnyavulkyu and the text of the Ved is admitted. But how can you set aside the following text of the Rig Ved on the subject of Concremation — ' s O fire let these women, with bodies anointed with clarified butter, eyes colored with collyrium and void of tears, enter thee, the parent of water, that they may not be separated from their hus- bands, but may be in unison with excellent ( >3 ) husbands, themselves sinless and jewels amongst women.” Opponent .— This Text of the Ved, and the for- mer passages from Hareet and the rest whom you have quoted, all praise the practice of Concremation as leading to fruition, and are addressed to those who are occupied by sen- sual desires ; and you cannot but admit that to follow these practices is only optional. In repeating the Sungkalpya of Concrema- tion the desire of future fruition is declared as the object. The Text therefore of the Ved which we have quoted, offering no gra- tifications, supersedes in every respect that which you have adduced, as well as all the words of Unggira and the rest. In proof we quote the text of the Kuthopuni- shut. “ Faith in God which leads to absorp- tion is one thing ; and rites which have future ( '4 ) fruition for their object, another. Each of these, producing different consequences, holds out to man inducements to follow it. The man, who of these two chuses Faith, is blessed ; and he, who for the sake of reward practises rites, is dashed away from the en- joyment of eternal beatitude.” Also the Moonduk Opunishut, — “ kites of which there are 18 members are all perishable: — He who considers them as the source of blessing shall undergo repeated transmigrations ; and all those fools who immersed in the foolish practice of rites, consider themselves to be wise and learned, are repeatedly subjected to birth, disease, death, and other pains. When one blind man is guided by another, both subject themselves on their way to all • kinds of distress.” It is asserted in the Bhugvut Geeta* ( 15 ) the essence of all the Smritis, Poorans and Itihashes, that " AH those ignorant per- sons who attach themselves to the words of the Veds that convey promises of fruition, consider those falsely alluring passages as leading to real happiness, and say that besides them there is no other reality. Agitated in their minds by these desires, they believe the abodes of the ce- lestial Gods to be the chief object ; and they devote themselves to those texts which treatof ceremonies and their fruits, and entice by promises of enjoyment. Such people can have no real confidence in the Supreme Being.*' Thus also do the Moonduk Oopunishut and the Geeta state that “ the science by which a knowledge of God is attained is superior to all other knowledge.” Therefore it is clear from those passages of the Ved and of the Geeta, that ( "6 ) the words of the Ved which promise fruition are set aside by the texts of a contrary import. Moreover the Ancient Saints and Holy Teachers, and their commentators, and your- selves, as well as we and all others, agree that Munoo is better acquainted than any other law- giver with the spirit of the Veds. And [^under- standing the meaning of those different texts, admitting the inferiority of that which pro- mised fruition, and following that which con- veyed no promise of gratification, has directed widows to spend their lives as ascetics. He has also defined in his 12th Chapter, what acts are observed merely for the sake of gratifications, and what are not. “ Whatever act is performed for the sake of gratifications in this world or the next is called Pruburttuk, and those which are performed according to the knowledge res- pecting God are called Niburttuk. All those ( 17 ) ivho perform acts to procure gratifications may erjoy heaven like the Gods; and he who perfoims acts free from desires, procures release frcm the five elements of this body ; that is, obtains absorption. Advocate. — What you have said is indeed consistent with theVeds, withMunoo and with theBhuguvut Geeta. But from this I fear that the passages of the Veds and other Shasturs, that prescribe Concremation and Postcrema- tion as the means of attaining heavenly enjoy- ments, must be considered as only meant to deceive. Opponent . — There is no deception. The ob- ject of those passages is declared. As men have various dispositions, those whose minds are enveloped in desire, passion and cupidity, have no inclination for the disinterested worship of the Supreme Being. If they had no Shas- c ( «8 } turs of rewards, they would at once throw aside all Shasturs, and would follow their se- veral inclinations, like elephants unguided by the hook. In order to restrain such persons from being led only by their inclina- tions, the Shastur prescribes various ceremo- nies ; as Shuenjag for one desirous of the destruction of the enemy, Pootreshti for one desiring a son, and Justishtom for one desiring gratifications in heaven, &c.; but again reprobates such as are actuated by those desires, and at the same moment expresses contempt for such gratifications. Had the Shastur not re- peatedly reprobated both those actuated by desire and the fruits desired by them, all those texts might be considered as deceitful. In proof of what I have advanced I cite the fol- lowing Text of the Oopunishut. “ Know- ledge and rites together offer themselves to every man. The wise man considers which of these two is the better and which the worse; By reflection he becomes convinced of the superiority of the former, — despises rites and takes refuge in knowledge. And the unlearn- ed, for the sake of bodily gratification, has re- course to the performance of Kites.” — The Bhuguvut Gecta: “The Veds that treat of 1< ites are for the sake of those who are poss- essed of desire — Therefore, O Urjoon! do thou abstain from desires.” Hear also the text of the Ved reprobat- ing the fruits of rites — “ As in this world the fruits obtained from cultivation and labor perifh, so in the next world fruits derived from rites are pcrifhable.” Also the Bhuguvut Geeta. ** All those who observe the rites prescribed by the three Veds, and through those cere- monies worship me and seek for heaven, ( 2 ® ) having become sinless from eating the remains of offerings, ascending to heaven and enjoying the pleasures of the Gods, — after the comple- tion of their rewards, again return to earth. Therefore the observers of rites for the sake of rewards, repeatedly ascend to heaven and return to the world, and cannot obtain absorp- tion.” Advocate . — Though what you have advan- ced from the Ved and sacred Codes against the practice of Concremation and Postcrema- tion, is not to be set aside, yet we have had the practice prescribed by Hureet and others handed down to us. Opponent . — Such an argument is highly in- consistent with justice. It is every way impro- per to persuade to self-destruction by citing passages of inadmissible authority. 5 In the second place — It is evident from your own au- ( 21 ) thorities and the Sunkulpu recited in confor- mity' with them, that the widow should volun- tarily quit life, ascending the flaming pile of her husband — But on the contrary, you first bind down the widow along with the corpse of her husband, and then heap over her such a quantity of wood that she cannot rise. At the time too of setting fire to the pile, you press her down with large bamboos. In what passage of Hareet or the rest do you find authority for thus binding the woman according to your prac- tice ? This then is in fact deliberate female murder. Advocdti .—' Though Hareet and the rest do not indeed authorise this practice of binding, &c. yet were a woman after having recited the Sunkulpu not to perform cremation, it would besinful and considered disgraceful by others. ( 42 ) .h is on this account that we have adopted the custom. Opponent. — Respecting the sinfulness of such an act, that is mere talk. For in the same Codes it is laid down that the perform- ance of a penance will obliterate the sin of quit- ting the pile. Or incase of inability to undergo the regular penance, absolution may be ob- tained by bestowing the value of a cow, or three kahuns of kowries. Therefore the sin is no cause of alarm. The disgrace in the opinion of others is also nothing. For good men regard not the blame or reproach of persons who can reprobate those who abstain from the sinful murder Of women, ^nd do you not consider hew great is the sin to kill a woman ; therein forsaking the fear of God, the fear of consci- ence and the fear of the Shasturs, merely from a dread of the reproach of those who de- light in female murder ? ( *3 ) A.duoc4t &' — -Though tying down in this manner be not authorized by the Shasturs yet we practice it as being a custom that has been observed throughout Hindoosthan. Opponent . — It never was the case that the practice of fastening down widows on the pile was prevalent throughout Hindoosthan. For it is but of late years that this mode has been followed, and that only in Bengal, which is but a small part of Hindoosthan. No one besides who has the fear of God and Man before him will assert that male or fe- male murder, theft, &c. from having been long practiced cease to be vices — If, accor- ding to your argument, custom ought to set aside the precepts of the Shasturs, the in- habitants of the forests and mountains who have been in the habits of plunder must be considered as guiltless of sin, and it would be improper to endeavour to restrain their ha- bits — The Shasturs and the reasonings con- nected with them enable us to discriminate right and wrong. In those Shasturs such fe- male murder is altogether forbidden. And reason also declares that to bind down a woman for her destruction, holding out to her the in- ducement of heavenly rewards, is a most sin- ful act. Advocate . — This practice may be sinful or any thing else, but we will not refrain from observing it. Should it cease, people would generally apprehend that if women did not perform Concremation on the death of their husband, they might go astray. But if they burn themselves this fear is done away. Their family and relations are freed from appre- hension. And if the husband could be assu- red during his lifd that his wife would follow ( *5 ) him on the pile, his mind would be at ease from aporehensions of her misconduct. Opponent . — What can be done, if merely to avoid the possible danger of disgrace you arc unmercifully resolved to commit the sin of fe- male murder. But is there not also a danger of a woman’s going astray during the lifetime of her husband, particularly when he resides for a long time in a distant country ? What remedy then have you got against this cause of alarm ? Advocate .— There is a great difference be- twixt the case of the husband’s being alive, and of his death. For while a husband is alive whe- ther he reside near her or at a distance, a wife is under his control. She must stand in awe of him. But after his death that authority ceases, and she of course is divested of fear. t> ( *6 ) Opponent , — The Shasturs which command that a wife should live under the control of her husband during his life, direct that on his death she shall live under the authority of her hus- band’s family, or else under that of her pa- rental relations. And the Shasturs have au- thorised the ruler of the country to maintain the observance of this law. Therefore the possibility of a woman’s going astray cannot be more guarded against during the husband’s life than it is after his death. For you dai- ly see that even while the husband is alive he gives up his authority and the wife sepa- rates from him. Control alone cannot restrain from evil thoughts, words and actions. But r . ■* v f •* * the suggestions of wisdom and the fear of God may cause both man and woman to ab- stain from sin. Both the Shasturs and experi- ence show this, ( 27 ) Advocate . — You have repeatedly asserted that from want of feeling we promote female destruction. This is incorrect. For it is de- clared in our Ved and Codes of Law that mercy is the root of virtue ; and from our practice of hospitality, &c. our compassion- ate dispositions are well known. Opponent . — That in other cases you shew charitable dispositions is acknowledged. But by witnessing from your youth the voluntary burning of women amongst your elder rela- tives, your neighbours and the inhabitants o£ the surrounding villages; and by observing the indifference manifested at the time when the women are writhing under the torture of the flames, habits of insensibility are produced. For the same reason when men or women tre suffering the pains of death, you feel for o • ( 28 ) them no sense of compassion. Like the wor- shippers of the female Deities, who witnessing from their infancy the slaughter of kids and buffaloes, feel no compassion for them in the time of their suffering death ; while followers of Vishnoo, are touched with strong feelings of pity. Advocate . — What you have said I shall carefully consider. Opponent . — It is to me a source of great satisfaction, that you are now ready to take this matter into your consideration. By for- saking prejudice and reflecting on the Shas- tur, what is really conformable to its pre- cepts may be perceived, and the evils and disgrace brought on this country by the crime of female murder will cease. FI N 1 S,