t tut 8^ - <5 PRINCETON, N. J. Presented by Mr. Samuel Agnew of Philadelphia, Pa. Agncw Coll. on Baptism, No. $g A Serious H* IQUESTIONl M STATED- | «xs Ui^ : §«* gf Whether the Minifters of £W/WareI£ S b ° u ^M*fordof God co Baptize the §£ ^| Childrenof all fuch Parents which fay. they be- S& ^ keye ,n , Jelus Chrift ; but aregrofly ignorant, fcandalous in SO- •*6 then" Conations, Scof&rsSt Godlmefiejnd refufe to W£ *>| tabmittoChurch-Difcipline? q£ «0-& ^ ^ THE g<|i 3§^(<£4**w (■ mtb fubmifsion to fatter** '3| J«&«i«i*,; is modeftlj defended. Something S^ **$ thai '.concern 'our Congregationall Churches are m ^ ^g theEpMetoweReadahiefytoHcbtl §^ «§.,. , , AS ALSO §£ 3| A little Addition made to the Controvert a- t& ■-£6 gainft the ^a^fo in the following ^ >_ DHcourfe, ^ 51 ._^^ f j^Minifter to the Ch'urd, i„ SbdfrdnEffZ IS si v^s * * reqi,indin m # ™*is «&S- ■ _ $&> mmmmmmmmmmM *x TOTHE Courteous Reader. & 3 in ratione 0^(^407:0! Doni perfeverantia^ & cfficatia illius 5 non dependeteti- z. ' amuta conditione, fine qua non 5 ex cooperatione no- ilri arbitrii, fed r expropofito 3 decreto Dei abfoluto \ g ;difp< l efficiente 3 uthomoufque in finemperfeveret. There if a 7th. yet to adde. Sad times, when godly men jhalltake up fuch principles which if they be followed, ml un- dermine and defiroy all our reformation, which hate cofi fo many prayers, and fuch vaft expences of e fates, lives, and blood. Let this be one, If errors be not in the fundamcn- talls, we fhould indeed labour to convince Chriftians 3 but if we cannot 3 we muft go no further, but muft carry our felves to fuch pcrfons in allChurch refpefts as we do tothe Orthodox and Godly, when we aski wb*t do you cal fundamentals ? we find they are pent up in a very narrow com- pajje: a foundation we know is that which lyeth in the loweji place of the building, and beareth up all that is built upon it • and remove that, you defiroy the building:That then muft be a fundament all point upon which ourfalvation is fo built, as de - ny that, and you defiroy ourfalvation.Artninizniim is denied to be within this compajje of fundamentals, by thefe godly men as I have heard them, yea, fuch men as I am fure are clear e- noughfrom Axminhniim 3 andfuch as I much reverence. Then let us follow this opinion. Suppofe then there be in a Church fome members who deny Baptifme, • they acknowledge no fuch things neither of Infants ♦ " " nor To the Reader. nor others, but onely the inward baptifme of the ffirit (at / know Jucb)thefe then you mujl labour to convince, but if they mil not be convinced you mufi 'proceed no further , [ for I be- leeve jou will not fay a man cannot befaved without Baptifm, ihat then is no fundamentall point ] thefeperfons being let alone infeB others: foat Lift Baptifme is lofl in that Church, and if it be lofl in one Church, it may be in two, &c. So for the Lords Supper , fuppcfe others jhould deny that, as 7 know one who hath been reputed for a very godly Chrifian, and is I beleeveflill fo reputed by many, A brother of mine being in difcourfe with thisperfon about the Lords Supper, the Tarty did affirme unto him, He might goe to the Bakers fhop, and takeaLoafe there, and it would doe him as much good as that, /*. e. the bretd in the Sacrament. We h&ow if we confider the Bread as bread only, that bread will doe no good-, but the Tarty fpake in way of fcorne of the Sa- crament t as thefpeech alfo implyes. Suppcfe many more be of that minde in a Church, as now we know how many are above 'Ordinances * yea> and I have heard them who I beleeve are truly godly, fay for the Sacramentsjhey are externall things^ £ but with your favour, they have Divine Authority for their mfitution-i they have the Spirit ofCjodio attend them"] and fo long as they had T reaching and Trayer they did not much ftand upon them, though I am perfwaded they would enjoy them if they could to their minde : but if once this notion^ they are externall things [ andfo are all Ordinances^ though, fome the light of Mature doe more ditlate, others are more juris pofitivi ] be taken in, we may fe are what will be next 3 now I fay, fuppofeyour Members tyould deny the Lords Supper, you mujl labour to convince them, but proceed no further • for I hope you do not tye faluationto'this -,if fo,then thofe Minifters have done very ill, that have had no Sacraments for divers yeares together ; The Lords Supper, that is gone alfo by this opinion. So To the Reader. Sofvr?>ifcipline, that the Eraftians tell us, doth not he- long to the Church, but to the Civill Magiflrate ; and fome Churches have wanted it alfo : That is gone alfo by thu opi- nion. For finging of Pj dimes, that is efleemed rediculom, and omitted by abundance of Church ^Members. Some dt- ny the Ordinance, ( as I knowfuch ) fome omit it under a whim of the mixed multitude, fuch ire have in fome Churches, whofe confciences are very tender ', for joyning with mixed multitudes in fuch Ordinances; but if you aske what per fons svethefein their convey fations, 1 can fay, that for pride, and jor following off anions they are fa noted^ that mofi doe abhor them, where t)jey live. O tender Conference. We have no Ordinances left then, but Prayer and Preaclr ing,for peaching by perfons in office, that is cried downe, a gifted Brother is as good as any Blach^coate. As for Prayer, when the Spirit moves w [ fuppofe but once in a moneth, or quarter of a year e ] then we will pray, and not elfe ; fo that for my part I cannot fee but this Opinion will flub up all the Or- dinances; where then is our Reformation that hath coji fo much ? Thefefew things I have mentioned, that Rob. Purnell may fee the Tresbyteriall Mmiflers are not in a dreame when they fay, they are fad rimes; when God heals thefe things, I beleevethey will fay, they are good times* If you fay, No, I doubt they will not, they mufl have your Congregationall Churches downe firfl. Ibeleeveformanyofthem,fober, moderate, learned, and godly men, they doe not fland upon that, ifCongregationall men would but for bear e one thing 5 and for my part [ with re- fpeB to our Congregationall men~\ I mufl needs joyne with the Presbyteriall brethren in that pointy as I have done ever fince I came into England ; that is in this* Suppofea godly B Mini" To the Reader. /Mtnifierahle, &c. liveth in a Parijh, he hath twenty or more Dcdtum *- ma y be a hundred^ nay two hundred vifible Saints in his •Parijh ; thy all have this liberty > if any come to the Sacra- ment of the Lords Sapper, who are known to any of the Bre- thren to be guilty of fome fins, which make them unfit for the Ordinance. Let them come in and tejtifie againft them [ which they mufi doe in any Church however conftituted'] they are debarred unlejje they can give Satisfaction^ all p erf on s are, be fides all examined by the Officers 5 the Brethren have free power given them in eletlion of Officers [ as in Dedham J where the Miniflers gave the people fo much liberty in the choyce of their ruling Elders* that they would not fo much as nominate any, but freely left it to the fraternity, to nominate the perform whom they would have, as the cafe flood in that Church there might be fome reafon, but el[e I ffjould ( under favour ) I lame thofe Minifiers for doing fo $ were not you members of -the Church as well as they } and ought not you, { hazing more skill to judge of the fitnejse of a perfon for the Office ) to have gone before them in the Election I ] but yet all this will not doe, though they called the Minifier, or Mini- fiers to the place, have joyned with them in all Ordinances be- fore, constantly attended upon their Mini fiery, have this li- berty granted, and ma j partake in Ordinances without finne, yet a great part of ihefe depart from the Officer, from the His Preface ^hurch, Schematically [ / cannot efleeme it lej]e~] and am- his farvey of ther Mi nijler living by, he takes the fe into his Church. Holy Cbu&EUc Hooker thought, To feparatefrom Congregations for want of fome Ordinances, or to feparateVrom the true Worfliip of God, becauie of the finne of fome Wot- fhippers, is unlawiull. If Congregationallmen would take what they finde in their owne ParifbeSy and if there be another Tarifh by, where there is no Minifies [ asfuch there are ] or iffofew fit to part ah of TothaReadeio the Lords Sapper, that the Minifler cannot ivith comfort ad- mi nifler it in his owne Parifh, and fo himfelfe, and the few he hath joyne with this Church -, or if a Minifler will give his confent to let his people \oyne with this Congregatknall Churchy I know the Presbyteriall M/nifters will allow this, for they praBife it themf elves, if indeed there be no Minifler in a place, and afterward a godly man be chofen into the Ta* riflo then they would refigne up thcfe Members which live in his Parifh to him againe, and this, is good- } for my part, thofe who will not' be content with this, but will prachfe -ac- cording to that dividing Principle ihatfome doe, to take a- way the godly Chriftians againft a godly Minifler s confent y when he hath fufficient comfortably to goe through all Ordi- nances^ that man fhall not le efleemed in my heart for one who followeth peace, but afeeker ofdivifion. if any Chriftian have a minde to enjoy fomething which may be had in another Church, let him. [ / know what could befaidhere ] remove his dwelling into that T'owne, and then there is no ofjence given ; if you thinke it will hinder you a little in your efl ate, &c. friend, they who went to New Eng- land/^ true Liberty of Corfcience, payed dearer for it then you doe here. Neither am I fatisfied concerning the prablifes of f owe Congregationall Churches here, as I . In that ridged exami- nation they make of their Members ( fome I amfure, whether all their Members arefo examined I know not : ) The %ules Ihavefetdowne arethefe. i. A Perfon profefling the fenfe of his undone condition byfinne, an utter emptt- neffe in himfelfe to help himfelfe out from that condi- tion, and fo profefleth his relying upon Jefus Chrift on- ly for falvation. 2. His knowledge competent. 3. His Converfation fuch as doth not crofle his Profeffion, by living in any knoyyne finne, or omitting any knowne B 2 duty. To the Reader duty. 4. Hisfubje&ion to Difcipline. 1 goe by thefi rules, andthinke they are as fraight. as the rules the vfpoftles went by-, hut 1 am blamea Hy fame for leing too large, and have ether notions buzzed into the Heads of my people , [ though ( through mercy ) I know of none of my people, either fiy-llwa with the errours of the times, nor any crack among us, tut we are Alone, the herd continue n : ] *As perfons who are admitted into Churches muf give an account from point to pointy how God carried them on in confer f on ; alfo fome Church mufl have the Members give account, in what Fr or mifes Cjcd hath manifested Himfelfe to ihem, as requifite to * their admifsion. For thefe perfons andpratlijes I {hall give them one word at the end of my Booke. $>Uw*. Ener. Learned Amefius [ to whom the Congregational! men are Tom. 1. 1. 2. xQt , t ij t tj e beholden, and I am fure he is much honoured a- mongm~\faith^ inanfwer /oBellarmin: Itisfalfe, that in- ward re all graces are required of the reformed Churches, to wake a man a member of a vifdle Church 5. his words carry that fence I am fure ;Falfumeft, internas virtutcs rcquiri a nobis 3 ut aliquis fit in Ecclefia quoad vifibilem ejus ftatum, / wrong not his fence though 1. put in other word?* The Synod cf Anfc So you do in their Converfation as well as your Officer s^ and this is the maine* The other alfo you know mediately by your Officers. ' The beft Scripture that eier I heard a Hedged by thefe y is that of i Pet. 3.15. But if you ftraine that place to prove that every one that is to be admitted into a Church, mufl per-- fonal/y givt a relation before all the Church of the worke of Cod upon them from point to point , 1 doubt you wi/i wring the Text till blood come. Much might le faid concer- ning this Text, but 1 leave it. Other Scriptures I have heard alledged to prove this , but fo weakly that I will not name them. That is not the way of admiJ?ion,wberein the leaft Lamb of Cbrift fhould be beaten of}. But in this way, many lambs of Chrift mu[l be beaten off 5 for. do m think all true Chrifiians are able to give an account B 3 before. To the Reader, before a whole Church } Nay, I kno w the contrary [, many are fo fearful, confounded ( as I may fay ) they know not what to fiy,and hencefometimes go away with difcouragement. B^e fides, do ml Minifevs know what p ains they are forced to take with fome poor Chriftians when they are alone, to draw out from them, what God hath done for them, [like Danie], they muftgo and tell Nebuchadnezzar his dream ] and thefe very godly ones, hut toputthefe to ff>eak before others, is to halt them fay nothing. In New England divers Churches admit women thus by See Mr. Hook* $beir relating fir ft to the Elder, or elders, and then to the Church! See Church, but many women are more able to /peak and relate Svv.of church the works of God on their hearts then many men are, and yet ffcpw»*. godly perfons alfo. ObjeB. But you Elders are apt to be corrupted 3 and you may fo deceive us. Anfw. But their converfation you know, whether it doth contradiB the relation made by your Elders. Do you thinks that perfons making their relations before you, is the fare way to keep out all Hypocrites, if fo- } you faid fomething. But I have know ne by experience fuch as have madereUtions oftheworkeofCjodontheir hearts from point to point, before all the Congregation, whom yet at that time I did fear e to be but rotten, andfoit proved. But to put an end to this, Let me give the Reader oneftory, There was a godly poor plaine woman in New England, Mr.^o> f n f )0 i ay C& \ w hich ficknefle ended her life] the * Pallor of the Church went to vijit her, and treating with her concern- ing eternity, how fhewas provided, the woman it feems did never ufe tofpeak,but little, but nowfhe opened her heart more: Sir, faid (be, to the Minifter,when the Sabbath came 3 1 was in heaven, &c. The CMinifter told me that if that wo- man had been received as others were in fome Churches, fhe Mufi To the Reader. ttoufl neve/ have been joynedto the Church : tell me Xpr&yjoW how many of ourCburch Members are in heaven,when the Sab- bath comes. ^Away then with ridgednejle* and the fe wayes of admifsion , whereby many a fine ere heart may bee beaten off.' what our Congregationa.il Churches do with Snows I know not , for I am but feldome abroad to inquire; lut trie gener all frame 0/Independents isjo be very large in that way oftolleratingfucbfiufje in theChurches : I jjjalfay no more but this, 1 know the Elders of New England very wel,their lear- nings holineffe,ckfe- walking with Godjheirflriflnejjeagainji errors in their Churches ', if our Congregation all Churches be notfo,butare gone £ejfl/zd New England, I only fay, fare- well. ' Now to give an account to the Reader why I appear in Print, \being conscious to myfelfe of my owne weaknejje y being bro- ken from myfludy in the prime cf my years, from eighteen years of age to twenty eight, and what time I could get in them years Jfpent in theftudy andpraHife ofPhyfick in that wildemes i til tk.efe times changed,and then I changed myftudies to Divini- ty\]The reafon,Ifay,ofmy appearing thus is this J being bran- ded by ^//.Edwards for an Independent, in the firfl part of his Gangrene , where there is one whole Letter concerns me, and that is all falfe, being meerly mi flakes, the next Let- ter {half of it) concerns me alfo, and [excepting that I preach- ed and 'was not in orders] that alfo is falfe. I beleiile the Gen * tlenian that wrote thofe Letters, if they were now to be written- would 'not do it. I cannot point the %eader in what page to find thofe Letters, for I have not the bool^ But- being by him bran- ded thw,and fo others looked upon me, when I was ordained,! did declare to the Elders anci the Congregation, how fane I owned Independency, that is. That a Church Organized and walking regularly, might execute all the pow- er** To the Reader. ~er of the Keycs within it fclfe. But if this were the meaning of it, viz* Here is a Churchy and ire hate all power within our [elves , therefore wee will praRife thus, or fo as we pleafe, and wee will maintaine inch or fuch Opinions , and will give no account to other Churches which [hall defire a reafon of our Opinions, and yraRife, and fo give an account 3 as either to prove cat what we doe by arguments, drawne from the Word, or elfefub- mit to the judgement of other Churches, our pratlifes and opi- nions being confuted by the JVord > or if the cafe be more dark, - and cannot fo quickly be determined, then to walkg with fuch tendernejfe, and clue reffeR to other Churches, as it may ap- pear e to be only pure confeience that is the ground of any diffe- rent praRife, cleaving clcfe in the meane time to thefe other Churches in all other points where we agree, againjl Err ours ^ SeRs, &c. fuch Independency as deny this, I conceive it to be an invention of a white T> evilly to make a religion* bridge over to all errours in opinion and praRife* Hence [ having divers fuch perfons in my Parijh as the quefiion mentions > who when they come to me to have their children Baptized, ail the argument they give me is, Other Minifters doe baptize all ; and therein I praRife different- ly from other Minifers, whom I efteeme farre before me in holinejje^ learning, and gifts ] / thought I was bound to give an account to other Miniflers, what are the grounds of my praRife, in refufmg fuch for theprefent 5 that I might there" by get anfwer to myfcruples, andflirre up more able men, who praRife as I doe, to undertake the conxr over fie ; thatfo when I havefeene the que f ion fair ely, and lovingly difcujsed, J may either praRife as they doe, if I fee all is taken off that can be [aid; or otherwife may not have ill thoughts conceived d- gainft me fir this different praRife. 1 1) aye not in my S^eflion fet up a man of Straw, and fhoote To the Reader. fhoote at him myfelfe, as if there were rwfuch perfons amongfl w - y there ere many Families of which it may be truly fud, They are families that call not on thy name ; fime gee to their meate like Swine, for ignorance in my Pan-h, I am not willing to print what I have foilnd [and yet meanes they have had before I came , lively and quick? J but the ignorance isfuchoffome, andalfo in other Par? foes, that if I jbonkt print what ar.fwers I have had from form, and others aifo have found in their Parishes, when they brought their a drcn to be baptized, and this in Eflex, not in Cumberland and them parts ; the Reader would (c arc e beleeve it were pof fible to be true. Some to whom I related things by word cf mouthy could not have beleeved the Things, only they had that charitable opinion of me, that I would not lye. Search, G Mi- nisters efpecially, in your 'Country Parifhes, and you ivillfnde ignorance enough Ifeare ; it made me call to m>;cde that fa- mom fiory which blejsed Pemble relates in his Sermon of, the milchiefe of Ignorance, concerning a mm a , yeares of age $ Who had heard in his life time between two and three thoufand Sermons, and lived civilly, who being queftioned on his Death-bed what he thought of God, anfwered, He thought he was a good old man -, And what of Chrift ? That he was a towardly young youth- And of hisSoule? It was a great bone in his body^ And what {hould become of his Soule after he was dead ? That if he had done well he fhould have been put into a pleafant greene Meddow. This man is not alone faith they are either fuch things as follow a Church, conflicted in its eflentiall caufes, and fo cannot be the Yorme 5 or they doe not due that which a Yorme muft y i.e. Diftinguere Ecclefiam ab Ecclefia. But this iwiU affirms, though exfticitenefje le not ejjen- iialltotheT*JRe{oTtt\a\eofaCburcb, yet you mlljindeit al- moft required to the %&t of the Government of the Church : for To the Reader. for though Igrdnt, there is an implicite confent to Church- Government in that implicit e Covenant which is in every Parochiall Congregation, yet when you come to exerctfeDi* fcipline, you will pnde feme Members explicit dy ftubborne 3 ftifte, and then this implicite confent, they will f pur ne at their heeles. I know it ly good expene nee, when a Church member hath fallen, if 7 had only the impli cite confent of being under Di~ fcipline > my felfe, and the reft of the Brethren, when we went privately firft to bring fuch a one to a fight of hti fwne, rjyc. we might have relumed as wife as we went ; but having ihvs hold upon thepeyfon, by his Covenant to befubjeR to that rule, Mat. iS, ice. we could not leave him, being engaged to him, [ elfe we would have done it, through that too mucbftijjenejje we found in thepevfon~\ nor could he fly off from us, until! (God blef sing our endeavoms ) we obtained our end. ApolloniuSj who ivritetb againfl Independents, and a v ^ Church Covenant^ yet in his fir ft chap, where he fheweth what qualifications they require in Members, faith this is one • Ut Difciplinse fe fe fubjiciant, in his fecond Chap, con- cerning the Church Covenant, he faith thus •, Concedimus, foedus aliquod taciturn feu virtuale effe inter membra u- nius & ejufdem particularis ecclefiae externa? 5 quo obli- gantur ad mutua ilia officia praeftanda, qu# a membris ecclefise vifibilis ad particularem fuam ecclefiafttcam communionem exiguntur, &c. and for the explicitenej? of the Covenant, he faith, it is not unlawful! ; but itfeemes they muft explicit ely promife to befubjeB to Difcipline, I thinks what he faith will very well content Congregational! men, IfDifcipline be an Ordinance^ then the conftitution of a Church muft befuch, as that Ordinance may regularly be ex- ecuted, or elfe here is an Ordinance, but no way to execute it. But box can this be executed without a free confent unto it^ C 2 being To the Reader. hingthis Church relation is not natural! [as Father and childe] lut free I yvhat learned ^.Hooker, and ^//.Norton hath [aid to prove this to be the Form, I fuppofe, u not lightly efleemtdby learned men. ?iow though I differ from other Miniflers in this praBife, jet I hope our difference is not fo great ; becaufe it is onely in the extent of the Ordinance • as for Infant- Baptifme there, I fully accord with them. to heare thofe per- fons relate their work of grace ^andalfo their confefsion of faith y that be fur e they were found in the faith \ e/fe the Civill Tower would foone have taken a courfe with them. The Mini(ler they ehofe^ efpe daily if a young man, before he came to the day of Ordination, preached at fome LeHure where the Elders mtt and heard him, and thus all was carried on with the pre fence of thefeTerfons : but what is this to your gathering of Churches here, when a company of Anabaptifts ( or others ) fkall meete together in a ch amber \andchufe one out from them 3 and ordain him for a Paftor (forfooth) as in a Towne by m, they have made a Hop-merchant their Paftor, a fellow all the week long up to the cares in the w9rU,andwh^n the Sabbath comes Jte preaches (they To the Reader. ( they fay ) and gives thai: which the) call the Lords Supper, to hit company. Ifanyffjallobjettagainflme, my preaching fo long without Ordtnation^ lanfwer : I. / never contemned the Ordinance. 2 . / wouldnever have come into a Tulpit, if I had not inten- ded to hdvg been Ordained, j. I did endeavour to have fame Minifters to Vrdaine me, two yeares before I could obtaine it, becaufe of troubles. 4. Th e re afon why I did delay it, was, .be- caufe I would have it in the place where I was thofen^ and not in another place from my people, which I apprehended not to be fo regular. \ The blefled Prophet of his Church, Teach us; the fame blefled King, lead us, not unto^ but into all his Truths^ Theoretically Pra&icall : Yortiter,fuaviter. So pr ayes the unworthieft of all Chrijls CWimfters : G.R A CO l&W m. A ferious Queftion ftatM^b;^^ VIZ. « Whether the Ministers of England are bound by the Word of God, to 'Baptise the Qhildren of all fuch Tarents, which fay, they beleee Baptized, if we confi- deritinit felfe as abftra&cd from the Pa- rent, gives no reafon for it felfe why it (liould be Baptized ; I baptize not this Childe rather then that, by vertue of any Argument drawne from the childe; confidered as it is in its felfe without relation to the Parent, this appeares prefently ; for fuppofe in a Parifh there mould live Chriftians, Indians, Turkes, and all had Children, and one fhould bring a childe to the Minifter to Baptize it, and he knew not whofe it was, I fuppofe he would aske the qtieftion whofe is it ? for it might be a Turkes, or Indians childe, as well as a Chrifti- ans, now what need he aske the queftion, Whofe is it ? it is Homo, whofe foeveritis, Baptize itsno fure 3 no Minifter would d»>e thus. D 2 All f*0 2 All children then are Baptized byvertueof the Parent^ one or both, ever confidering the childe in relation to the Parent, being the branch of fuch a root, and fo I take in the childe together with the Parent. Hence we fay commonly, they mult be children borne in the Church ; that is, of fuch Parents as are members of the Church, being a fociety of vi- fibie Saints, joyned together by way of Covenant, to exercife an holy communion with God in Chrift, and fo one with a- nother according to the order of the Gofpel, for I prefume none arefofottifh tounderfrand a Church to be that place., which ( by a metonymie of the fubjecl: J we call a Church, nor the Parities men live in, which never were of an Ecclc- iiaiticall conftitution. Upon this ground fland all our arguments againft the Ana- bapti(ls,and if this betaken away,Infant-baptifme muft fall. There is indeed one argument ufed by our Divines, A°~ meftitSj and others with him, but it is not an argument drawne from what the childe doth give, but what it can receive. This it is *, in the working of that inward gr*ce,of which Baptijm is the figne and feale, all who fartakf of that grace, are but meere Patients, and contribute no more tbcna Cbilde y ergo, it may be baptized. But here if we ccnfider the childe with this argu- ment, without refpsctto the Parent ; fee how the argument will run. All that are Subjects capable of that grace to which Bap- tifme is a figne and feale, they may be baptized. Bit the children of Turkes, and Indians, are Subjects capa- ble of that grace, to which Baptifme is a figne and feale 5 .Er- go tkeir Children may be baptized. Hence then that argument which is fo often ( but indis- creetly ) ufed j what though the Parents be never fo wicked, what doe you know what the childe, may prove*, many a wicked man may have good children, they may beeled-, Et cctffrd,thisl fay proves an argument of no ftrength;forflccT*on is no rule for me to goe by, 1 will fay the fame of the Indians children, efpecially now in NM England, what do you know but that this or that Childe may be Elc'ft , prove godly, though the Father be an Indian. Afuppofition Ve futuro/is no rule for me to give the feale of the Covenant at this ptc- fcritj fent, bat I mud look at the Childe as a Covenanter, but that is in the Parent. This rule warrants any Minifter comfortably to admini- fter that Ordinance; here is a Parent, (one or both ) vi- fibly in Covenant with God, and a viable member of Cbrifts Church, I doe therefore adrninifter the feale of the Covenant- unto this chslde by vcrtue of this Parent, according to that command given to Abraham, the Father of Beleevers, with whom when the Lord entredinto Covenant, and iayed the foundation of the Church viiiblein his Family, he took his Seed into Covenant with him, and commanded that they with him fhould keep that feale of his Covenant. Now as the fecondCommandement bind*s us, that whatever Worfhip, or Ordinances God /hall fet up, whether thofe under the Old Teftament, or thefe under the New Teftament, yet be fure ; they be kept pure ; the mora'/ty of the command is the fame, though the forme of Worfhip is changed : So the morality fas I may fay) of that command ft m is thus ; that let God appoint that Seale of Circumcition to be the initiating Seale under the Old Teftament, or this of Baotifme under the New Teftament, yet the children of vifible Beleevers muft have the initiating Seale. This I doe beleeve upon many grounds moving me to it, and flatil doe Co, till the Ansbap- tifts can bring me exprejfe Scriptures out of the New Tefta- ment, where God hath caft off the children of belceving Pa- rents, whom under the Old Teftament he tooke into Cove- nant with their Parents; The Anabaptifts will buy, by the nieafure of exprefle Scriptures, let them fell, by the fame meafure. Queft. But here now comes in a $>u$m ; What Parent dee you meane, the immediate Parent only, or the Predecejfors ? for fuppofe the immediate Parent be as your que ft ion mentions, yet it maj be the Grand-father , or fame of the Predecejfors have been godly , doth not that p?omife> Exod. 20. 6. warrant the baptizing by venue of them ? Anf* I perceive divers of our Divines help themfelves here, and fome in difcourfe are content to loofe that ground of the immediate Parent, and fly to this ; men whom I dare not thinke {lightly of, but doe reverence their holineffe^ and ho- nour their Learning in my heart. D i Yet (4) Yet wish fubmiflion to thefe men, I fliall dcfirc to pro- pound fome few fcruples that trouble me, Andfirft, It would not beamifTc to caft our eyes back to our Prcdeceffors, and fee how this Englifh Nation came to be a Church, and the Perfons made Beleevers 5 the Story is wel knowne, and therefore I doe but touch it. It cannot be de- nied but that England was one of them Ifles, Jfa. 42. 4. which foone received the Law of Chrift, that there were reall Chri- ftians among them Chriftians, who dare fay the contrary, when fo many thousands of them fufTtred under that bloudy Tyrant {Vhdejian^ for the Name of ChriftS this Tyrant though he made wofullhavock in the Church, yet it doth not appeare by Story that he did quite deftroy all the Chriftians, bin there was a remnant left, which continued even when the &a x -ms over- run the Nation. When Juflin came into England, the Waters began to be brackifh at Rome; neither Worfhip (efpecially) nor Do- ctrine fc pure as before ; after he had converted King Ethel- bat to the prcfeffion of the Faith in Chrift, many alfo received the fame Faith ; none being compelled by the King, faith the Scory [ which yet is no ground for Toleration in our times ] and thus England in a fhort time received the Faith ; But whe- ther ail did it by the Word enlightning, convincing, 8cc. and not rather as people follow Court fafhions, fo the Court re- ligion, King Etbelbert is become a Chriftian, and Baptized, fo will we, and fo upon Tradition others that fuccecded tooke up Chriflianity, it is much to be doubted ; for wee know in what ftate the Churches were when Auifin came from Rome, and dark night of Popery followed prefently ; fo that I doe not reckon them Chriftians brought to the faith by Auflin, to belike them who before were flaine : Thus we held the name of Chriftianity under the Romifo yoke, till of late times the State threw it off, and then the people follow- ing the State [ as they will doe, faith Mafter Rogers the Pro- to- Martyr in Queen Maries dayes, if the State change ten times in one yeare, the people would ever be ready at hand to change with it] they threw off that yoke alfo, and fo England is become Proteftant. I doubt not but God had his number in thofe darke Times, but what were thofefew in cons^ comparifon of die body of the people, our Pr edecefTors. Sincer the cime of the Gofpel reftored to its purity, God hath won- dcrfully appeared in England; but thofe who ufe the argu- ment of Predecefibrs run very highmow I will a little coniider the text in reference to them. i Mercy unu tboufands, or" whom ? of them who love me, and kgeyey&c* This then is cleare, that this promife is made to fuch as are reaL'y godly y and no children can chime this pro- mife, but the children of fuch Parents as did love God, and keep his Commandements, and this Commandement of the purity of his Worihip in a fpeciail manner, as fome of our Divines doe interpret it. I hopeformall Pro fc (Tors, fuch as f have no truth of Grace in them, will not be judged fuch per- ^J^L* fons as God mentioned in his Promife, to be lovers of him,Thef! 6 t , fnd and keepers of his Worfhip in purity; for the latter, our others. Predeceflbrs in thofe darke times of Popery, they did not keep that Commandement purely. Such then as bring this Promife to prove their right to their childrens Baptifmc, muft bring this proofe, That their PredecefTors were really fuch as the Promife is made to 5 this will helpe me a little in refufing to Baptize many children, for there are divers who as their immediate Parents are wicked ; fo we cannot learne that their Grand- father, or great Grand-father, or Grand-mother 3 8cc. were fo much as efteemed godly* Obj. But tbtugh you, nor others know of any, yet in charity ycu muft )udge they had fome were godly ? Anf. I love charity as much as another, but I would have it have eyes •, Juftice indeed we ufe to picture blinde-folded, that it might give to everyone that which is fuum, and not be per- verted by the fight of mens perfons, &c. but to have charity thus blind-folded in the AdminHtration of the Ordinances of drift, isnotfafe. Betides, this will prove a troublefome rule, for I can eaffer nidge of a viiible Saint, whom I know and live by, then judge of the reality of a mans godlineiTc, especially when they are dead, or I know him not« 2. Againe, That threat of Gods vipting iniquity, See. I hope you will limit it to fuch children as are followers of their Fathers wicked fteps^not of others 5 Jerobtaw, Jehu, and their (6) their poftcrity finde it true; but good Hezeklab not follow- ing wicked Abazy it doth not reach him ; Why then is not thi c promife to be limited as well to fuch as follow their Pa- rents (Teps, but if ihe Sonne be afcorner, an oppofer of God, andhisCommandements, mud he needs challenge this mercy of Baptifme for his Chiide, and the Minifor bound to give it him? doth not God rather fulfill the threat, in vifiting his iniquity upon his chiide, thus to debarre it of this Ordi- nance? 3 Againe, I am not fatisfled how that can be a fetled rule for us to adminifter Baptifme by, wherein we fee the Lord taking his liberty. Doth God ever vilite the iniquity, as the threat runs > Doth he ever (hew mercy to all the Po- Ini.mVryn. fterity,&c? Zanchy faith of the threat ; guamvismnfemperbc- beat locum, nonproptena tumen efficitur, quin verijfima fit, & quam fepijfimb funm babe at efficaritatem. So he faith of the Promife, he gives a caution there alfo. So Mr. Perkins, We may not furmife that t\m excellent Promife k made to every one particularly, who if fame of faithful/ Parents. If then God will referve a liberty of bellowing temporal! mercies, andeternall mercies to the po- fterityof good and bad, why muftGod be tied up by this promife, that he may not deny the pofterity of a wicked Pa- rent, £ who had godly Parents ] the feale of the Covenant; why mud he have no liberty in this mercy as wtll as in Ehem? Ob). But we fee among the J ewes y wichgd Parents bad their chil- dren Circumcifed f Anf But was it byvertue of this Promife that God had tyed up himfelfe fo, or from fome other ground > for the ob- jection it felfe I (hail confider it in another place. 4 If the godly Predeceffbrs by vertue of this Promife doe give a right to Baptifme, though the immediate wicked Pa- rent doth not; thenfuppofea childe whofe immediate Pa- rent is very godly, and baptized byvertue of him, growing up, proves very fcandalous, yet I hope the Promife made to his immediate Parent, will give him right to the Lords Sup- per, though otherwife he muft be debarred; for mercy to tboufandst&c. the Lords Supper is a mercy as well as Bap- tifme, Obj. (7) ObJ. No> the ptrfon himfelfe doth obiceni poncre Anf. If the wickednefle of this childe growne up,doth pat a barre betweenc the immediate godly Parent and the Lords Supper, why doth not the fcandalous vile converfation of the immediate Parent, ptit in a barre betweene his Predecef- ibrs j and the childe to be baptized ? Obj. The child? mud notjuffer for the Parents finite ? Ezek. 1 3, Anf. i. True, for eternall death, ifnotguiity it felfe, 2 Thefe children which complaine, and therefore were a&ulti) had not they walked in their fteps., mould not have met with thofe punifhments 5 but the fowre Grapes were found in their mouthes alfo. But for their Infants, how many iuf- fcred with the Parents. 3 It is true, the childe (hall notfufter for the Parent in fuch things wherein the childe may be confidered abfolutely without relation to, or dependance upon the Parent^ as it may in things temporal!, eternall ; but if the childe cannot fo be confide* ed, but alwaies in relation toihe Parent, as gi- ving the right [_ as in this cafe "} it may furTerbyhim, and in will appeare fo after. 4 If the chi!de walk not in the Parents fteps j now though the childe cannot be faid actually to follow the Parents ft?ps, yet the childe is reputed, and relatively is efteemed as the Pa- rent, holy with him, or unholy with him ; an Infidels childe is an Infidel], though actually it doth not follow its fathers itepf. 5 That text, 1 Cor. 7. 14. The unbeleeving Wife is fanfti- fied by the beleeving Husband, elfe were your Children un- cieane ; iut now are thy boty. This text feernes to tye the fedenU holineiTeof the childe to the immediate Parent, doth not fay, the childe is holy by • ve'mie of a great Grand- father. Let us fuppofe in the Church of Corinth fome perfons who maybefixty yearesofage, this Husband and Wife thus old have children, but they are Infidels, they will no* owne Chrift, nor his holy Government, &c. now thefe Infidels have children borne, fo that the old man offixty yeares, is a Grand-father to this young infant of his Sonne an Infideli ; would now a Minrftcr take this infant though the father be. an C8) an Infidell, and baptize it by vertue of the Grand-father > I fuppofe it would trouble a Confcienoious Minifter. The Grand-father is old, may dye quickly before the childc grow up, the Inrldell his Father breeds htm up in his Idolatry j let the Church take it fay you,but the Infidell will not, he fcornes the Church, and their religion. Sofuppofe the InrVdell wiil not Ut his Father uke his childe to baptize it, what will you doe, who have mod right over the childe, the Father, or Grand fat her > You muit alfo fuppofe the Grand-father and the childe to dwell together, that he may bring it up, and Catechize it, &c. this is ftrange to force thif, which we may fuppofe many things to hinder. I cannot fee how they be proper fubjefts to convey the right of Baptifme to another, who may have jufthinderances in the conveyance pfrtj A- quinus faith, F/7// infidelium,cum ante ufitm liber i arbitrii fub parenmn Pag 3.^. 68. curafnutytion funt eo tempore invitis parentib.MBaplizandi.$oGrtg,dc To° Df. va ** Vtntte B aft izentur parvuli filii infideliunt, rtquiriturconfen- q.°?. 4 p. xt 4 l™ P aTentm *■ quorum poteftate funt^ita ut bis invitis ^ quamdiu quidem in ip[orum psteftate & cura funt parvuli tninime liceat ipfos Baptizare. He gives the reafon, Jure nature funt parvuli fub cura &p9t.eflate pa- renmm ; ergofieret pctsntibus injur ia.fi ipfu invitis baptizarentur>&c. The immediate Parent, let all the PredecefTors be Infidels, it hinders not him in his conveyance, &c. Ergo he is the per- fon to whom the right of conveying the Seale doth belong, and not he that even in foro Ecclefi* have hinderances in the conveyance 5 the Church mud not aft againft the Law of Nature. 6 If that promife doth give this power to PredecefTors, &c. then though there are none to educate this childe [for the ignorant, prophane Parents Will not, but teach them how to breakethe Covenant; the PredecefTors cannot, they are dead, and are not ] yet we muft feale to this childe, &c. Where doe you fee Churches take care of fuch children, they mult be of fome bigneffe and understanding before the Church meddle with them, the immediate prophane perfon brings him up in ignorance and prophaneneffe ; neither will take care to have his childe inflru&ed by the Church 5 as ex- perience witneffe too much. 7 If the Predeceflbr may by this promife give right to Bap- (9) Baptifme without the immediate Parent, then I pray tcUuf, how farre we may goe for this Predeceffor ? how many Ge- nerations ? Where hath Gods Word limited Minifters, you may goe to this Predeceffor, and no farther? I know of no text that limits but this, and this will allow us to goe to the thoufand Generation to finde a Predeceffor -, if fo we mould, ftrange things would follow. 8 If by vertue of that promife,Predeceffors may withouc the immediate parent give right to Baptifme, then the chil- dren of an immediate Parent Apoftatized from the Faith,and excommunicated from the Church, may be baptized. But the Confequent is falfe, ergo the Antecedent. The confluence is plaine, f or the Predeceffors give right without the immediate Parent, then let him be what he will, yet his children may be Baptized by vertue of them ; and if lb, then the children of our Englifl-men now in Turkey , who are apoftetized from their Faith to that religion, may be bap- tized, and fo many of thofewho are the pofterity of the fe- ven Churches of Afia, and it is to be feared are turned to that religion may by vertue of their Predeceffors be baptized. See Gerhard moving this queftion ; Whether the children of fuch Hereticks as profeffethey will bring up their children in their Herefie ought to be baptized ? He concludes for the negative : His firft Argument is ; Pari pajfu ambulant, cum Infantibus infide- liwn % cumparentes ipforum it idem ftnt extra Ecclefiam, a qua nefari- um facere divertium. He adds more Arguments, and anfwers Objc&ions: but if that be a good argument in Gerbardi ac- count, I hope it will be as good for me, in the next branch of my Argument, and doth alfo help to this firft branch 5 I hopean Apoftate from the Faith ( fuch a one as nowlfpeake of ) is as bad as an Heretick, yet it may be this Hereticks fa • ther might be Orthodox. For the Excommunicate perfon ; If I may baptize the children of an excommunicate Parent, then I may baptize the children of one who is no member of a Church £ for fo is the excommunicate perfon ] fo confequently the children of a 7«r^e, or Indian, for they are no Members of a Church,and the excommunicate perfon is no other in refpeft of his com- munion in Church priviledges. E If (to) If you give me leave to baptize perfons out of the pale ( as they fay ) of the Church, I may then goc any whither -, but this perfon is without the pale. Baptifme notes communion with the Church, i Cor. 12. 13 how then is he excommunicated if his childe be baptized > If this Parent were a Heathen, and not a Member of the Church, fhould his children be baptized? why then fince by his excommunication he is made as a Heathen, and in fome refpeS below a Heathen £ for with a Heathen I mayeate, 1 Cor. 10, 27. but with him I muft not eate, I Cor. 5.11,] (hould his children be baptized > If you lay, there is difference between him and a Heathen, forhcftill holds his profeflionof Faith, and may belong to God, 8cc. I deny nor. this, but as to Church Communion, and Church Priviledges, I know not but we may admit a Heathen to them as wcl as he,and fo it was in NtwEngland^he Indians did enjoy as much as an excommunicated perfon. It the childe be a member of the Church with the parent, and reputed fo only by vertue of the parent, then if the pa- rent be a f^on-member, the childe alfo is a non-member. I pre fume none will deny this; and then to baptize fuch a childe, is to baptize a non-member. To prove it by this text, is pelhio principii. I fuppofe both parents excommunicated, or, but one a member, for if the Mother continues a member of the Church, the excom- municated Father hinders not, It is worth the confidcration, what learned Gil/efpic ob- A&t. rod.p. 58. fcrves out of Euxtorf. He tells ns 3 that this difference was put between him that was guilty of cutting off, and of him that was guilty of death. Kens mortify iff? tantum> non (emenejus$ ptna txcldh cotnprehenMt ipfum &femen e)us. Now if the punifli^ ment of death was perfonall only, and the punifhmert of cutting off, comprehensive not only of them but of their Seed, how can this agree Co well to any thing elfe, as to excom^ munication, efpecially if that hold which G*odWn in his Mo* fes2Li\dAtmn,Lib. t y.caf.2. tells us, that the children of ex- communicated perfons were not circumcifed. Thus Matter Gil/efpie. Cbemnitiut alfo feemes to me to be of this Opinion, upon » them them words, Mat. 18. 17. Let him be to thee as an Heathen; Hoc e/r, exemmunicetur 5 non admittatur adabfolutionem 3 non ad Com- inunionem Sacramentorutfty five Baptifmi five Coen* dominic£ i &r. Now how (hall we interpret this his^ non -ad million to Bap- tifme but in his children ; this perfon was baptized before, for he mufthe a Brother ( faith he ) that is to be excommu- nicated. What, would not he have the perfon re-baptized > The Lutbsrans were again ftfre baptizing, asappeares by (???- bard, Loc. Com. To. 4. debapU inf. 8. Zanch) I know is againft me, and quotes Auguflin againft it alfo, fee names not the Epiftle, but Ifuppofe he meanes his 75* Epiftle, Ad Auxilium i His argument is, Anima qu£pt\c&- verit, ipfa mcrietur 5 but fo had not the fonne oiCkjficianm^ he was not guilty of his finne. We fay with Augujlitt, That foule indeed flhai! dye, the chi'de (hall not be damned for the Fa- ther, but to this I have anfwered before, only this I adde ; <( Thofe that know Auftines opinion concerning Infants dy- eing unbaptized, will not wonder though he were for the " baptizing of the children ofexcemmunicated parents 5 but I ' c ftppofc our Divines are not of his judgement in that point. I have there mentioned Mr Perkins^ I faw him juft as it had done, but now I fend the anfwerthus : Holy and learned Perkjns I finde alfo to be againft me. Caf - Cor - r ' 1 (hall briefly run over what he faith. cb# 9 ' %' * Firft, he faith, Children of Parents that are prof e fed Members of the Cburcb ( tbvugb cut of for a time, upon fome 6 fence committed) bave right 1 Baptifme, becaufe it is not in the power of man to cut tbem of from Cbfiliytbougb tbey be excommunicated. Anf. I. This hath little in it, who fay, They are abfolutely cut off from Chrift ( or can be 3 if once in him > ) let fecret things goe, though he be not fo, yet from Church Com- munion I hope he is cut off; he hath nothing to doe with Church Priviledges. 2 Upon this ground I would give him the Lords Supper ftill, for he is not cut off from Chrift, though excommuni- cated, 3 Vifibly he appeares, and is reckoned as no member of Chrift. Statu quo [ Cut of for a time ] he faith 5 but who knows how long ? E 2 Secondly, Secon dly, the ferfonal/ftme of the Parent may not keepe the bU[* fmg frm the Childe, &c. Ergo. AnL This I have anfwered before; I fay now, though Perfcnall ftnnc may not deprive it, yet the Pei -fonatl fiate of the Parent may deprive the childe ; for the childe is reputed as the parent m refpc&of Church memberfhip, the childe is wholly dependent on the parent in this point. Thirdly, We mujl alway put a difference between them which doe not makf fcparat ion from the Cburcb, and yet are grievous offenders \ and open /tpoflataes > tbatjo)ne themf elves with the enemief of the Churchy &c Jnf. \. His fiift part doth not amount to the queftion in hand, for one may be a grievous offender, and not feparatc from the Church, and yet not excommunicated. %. Though he hath not feparated from the Church, yet the Church hath feparated him, and Chrift hath ratified the Sentence. 3,. He mould have proved, we mud put fuch a difference, as to baptize the childe of the one, and not the other. We can- not (ay 3 as ( excellently ) Bradtoardin \ Nome cuilibet Ckriftia- jtettffA ei, uo^imo&prefbano. pro Dewonftrati-one [ufficere debet, "Deus dicit ; fok isfufficient demonftration, Perkjnjiuf dicit; yet F think* I honour him as much as any man living* 4 Siippofe,that Apoftata be not excommunicated by the Church, and fhould now require Baptifme for his childe, what will you doe? Fourthly, He faith ; Jfemufiputa difference between fuch excom- • munka ted Perfons, and Infidels. An[ t He is to be reputed as a Heathen rn Church account, Mat. 18. 17. The queftion frill is, whether fuch a difference, as Ifaid in anfwer to the former objection . Fifthly, he faith 3 The mercy of God enlargeth it felfe to tbon- fands, &c. Anf.. Ic is true infome fencc^ but to bring that place to' prove the queftion in hand, is Petitioprincipii. 9 I pray prove it to me, that the children of fuch Jewes who were wicked [ which is the ftrongeft Argument I meete with] had their children circumcifed > only with reference to the predeceflbrs, and not the immediate parent^ who was of Abrahams feedac:ordingto, theflefli, not excommunica- ted. frtl ted, and doubtleffc fo long the imniediate parent was not caft off from giving a right to his chiide. If then that promife will prove this opinion of the prede- cefibrs giving right to the chiide without the immediate pa- rentj yet it mud: be fuppofed that the immediate paretic k not Apoftatized from the Faith, nor excommunicate ; for I obfervefome made doubt oFit then, who are for this opini- on j and what is this but to fay, a man muft be a viable be- leever, and a member of the Church* and then why not by vertueofthe immediate parent ? Only this gives occafion to move another queftion, which helps to clcare our way* Jgueft. Whether is this bare pofefton of faith in Chrifl, [ though Parents be grojlf ignorant , fcandaUus^ and refufe to fubjett to Church Difciphne ] Sufficient to make a man^ and continue bim a mem- ber of the viftble Church .? Anf* Thofe Divines who baptize all children I fuppofe doe it upon this ground, England hath received the Faith, and fo all our Englijh people are belcevers ; they looke on them ail as Church members, and therefore baptize all. This I confefle is fome difadvantage to me, for if a man be looked upon as a vifible Saint, and reputed a member of a tme Church, if that member be very fcandalous, and the Church let him alone, and not deale with him, that perfon may challenge any Ordinance in the Church, both Baptifm, and Lords Supper. But I conceive fuch a perfon is not fuffici- cntly qualified to make a member of a Church, nor ought to be continued a member of the Church* but the Church ought to feeke to reforme him, or if not, to caft him out h (o that if the Church will let fuch a perfon alone, and give him thefe Ordinances, there will be guilt charged upon that Church. That fuch a one is not fit to be a Member, I prove. i Members of Churches according to the Gofpell, are Saints vifible 5 But fuch a perfon as the queftion mention?, is not a vifibk Saint : Ergo. The major is plaine enough ; The Saints at Pbilippi, Saints at Rome, Saints at C9rintb i Saints- in Cafers Houfhold, &c« this is common. £ 3 The: (14) The minor ; fuch as will fay that foch a perfon as the queftion mentions is a vifibie Saint, I thinke his eyes are not good. He that tells me, the Saints which Taul mentions in thofe places, were no ether then fuch a perfen as is in the queftion, he muft pardon me though I beleeve him not. 2 If a bare profeffion of faith in Chrift, be fufficient to make a member of a Church, then no perfon can juftlybeex- communicated out of a Church for the vileft fins, or herefics, provided he doth but hold this profeffion of his faith. Theconfeqaenceis cleare 5 the perfon is the fame now which he was when you tooke him into the Church ; why then fhould you caft him out ? The inceftuous perfon did pro- file his faith in Chrift, when admitted, that was fufficient, no more was required of him, why is he now caft out> The Hone is now, as it was when you layed it on to the building. This were a wilde courfe, a man profefTes he beieeves in Chrift, and that is all ; grofly ignorant, he jives in fcanda- lous fins, you know it, yet becaufe he faith he beieeves in Chrift yoii admit him, and within a fortnight it may be you muft goe about to caft him out againe. 3 He that manifeftly oppofeth Chrift in his vifibie King- dome, is not fit to be a member of a Church 5 but fuch a per- ion as the queftion mentions, doth manifeftly oppofe Chrift in his vifibie kingdome : Ergo* The major is plaine, for to be a member of a vifibie Church is to be a fubjeft of Chrifts vifibie kingdome 5 that vifibie po- litick Body, over whom he is as Head, and King, by politi- cal! government, I Cor* 1 2. But a manifeft Oppoler, a Rebell, is no Subject t, thofe who oppofe him in hisLawes, and Difcipline, furely oppofe him in his vifibie kingdome ; fuch as profefle they will not fub- mit their necks to his yoke. Obj. But all are not convinced that Cburcb Difcipline is an Ordi- nance ef God ? An(. But I fpeake of fuch as have been convinced, and ac- knowledged it from that text, in Mattb. 18, 15. 8cc. but yet would not fubmit to ir. I wonder not though the Erajrhins have laboured to dam that Ordinance out of the Church? for wefinde, to walke clofe ciofe according to Chrifts rule herein,as Mst: 1 8. r5 &c. guides us,itwillcoft fome croffingof the flefh ; it is an excellent' means to keep love among Chriftians, curb fift, beautifiea Church, h we could eafily yeeld it up to the Eraitians, but be - caufe we find it croffe to our flelfi, we know there is fomething of God in it. Though Erafrus was a good Phiiitian, yet he wanted a lit- tle Helebore himfelfe 5 Mr.GiUefpiebatb prepared it for bis follow- ers. Many more Arguments might be given, but I fpare them. Let us hear what others fay. Ju(t. Martyr feems to intimate that more is required, then a . bare profeifion of faith. For relating to the Emperourthc * l> ** 5 ' manner how they did dedicate thcmfelves to God; it was in this manner, %m h miSum xj m&vanv *\o$»&c. I-obferve three things in it: Firft, Such as nereperjwadedand did keletve the things to be true which were taught. Where we finde no civil I power, no Court Religion to have had any place 5 it was the right way ,(70 teach ail Nations. {The things which they taught them} it mould feem then, it was n»i* then barely to fay,I belceve m Chnir, and many of our ignorant people know little elfe, neither do thev underftand that, fo much as thefe dld y x& 0r h court Ji>va£*i vm%y»VT*i- The fecond thing was a promife to live according to tboje rules which had been taught* Where(by the way) we may obferve,akind of Covenant made in them times in admifTions, the verb. v*i%y£in*i , from v-m^Ao^tpoliceor^pn- mitto, imply as much, they promifed fo to live, the verb Jltaefctt carries a little more in it,but take it in the eafieft fence «/#$«* 7* a^hw, & c - thJtioxovTtu-. The third was, they taught them, by prayer avd faffing to [eel^tbe pardon of their former fins, they joyningalfo with them in the duty, then they baptized them. This is more then a bare profeflion of faith. Apollonius \_ At qualification membrorum tccleful oppofin* firft that ridged examination [in that I confent with him] few down the qualifications of perfons whom Minifters may ad- mit into a vifible Church, and thus hedefcribes them. grfi veram Cbriflireligionem & fidem pnfitentur absque fcandalo vitam tr*ducunt> au\ infcandalaprolapfi refcipifcemiail/aabluunt in fore eo defuDiftflin* fefe fub)kimt 3 muAdivm cult us cxercitia public e frc*< frequent ant ^ ecchfi aft ic am cmmunhnem nobifcum exfelmU Five things he requires ; thefe are more then a bare Height pre fa- ling that I beleeve in Chrift. Medul.T&l. i. AmeftM , Having given the definition of a Church, takes Co j i Th.8. the eflentiall Caufes, matter, and forme afunder, and fpeaks to them feverally, for the matter he faid it was, focietat fidi- Hum, But 'then adds, JS^ia autem vera fides conjunclam habet fanUitatem, quam efficaciter operatur, A&. 15. p. atqke adeo frofeffio vera fidei non poteft dif-jungi aprofelJionefanftitatifyid- circo promifcue, & eodem (enfu dicitur ecclefia focietas fidelium,& foci" etas janfterum >Eph.i*l, 1C01.1.2 coUum. 2Cor.i.i.&c. So that a profeiTionof holineffe muft be, as well as a profef- fion of faith. Tta London Minifters in their preface, where they make the Jus. Div. paraleli between the Independent and Presbyterian, fay, the matter of a Church vifible are, Ferfons profefftng true faith in Cbrift, and obedience to him, according to the rules of the Gejpetl* But fh all then thofe who are groily ignorant about Chrift, and the Articles oFFaith, and in their lives actually profeflfe ma- tt ifeft difobedience againft Chrift, and refufe to fubjeel: to his Difcipline, be efteemed fit matter of a Church? Afterwards when they give the notation of the Word , P<37« c*xW«, three things they fay are implyed, 1. The terme from which they are called. 2 J'be terme to which they are called. 3 the Medium by which they are brought from one term to ano- ther, viz. by Calling. If the Integrum be thus, then all the Mem- bers that are edentiall to that Integrum, muft by calling be brought from one term to another. Therefore, after they adde, Avifible Church is, a company of thofe that are called to the IbiJ. vifible ProfeJJion of the Faith in Chrift, and Obedience unto ■Chrift , according to the Gojpell. But are men called , when they doe not vifibly anfwer the Call, but are quite oppofice? They defcribe the matter of the Church vifible , but [with honour to fo Learned Men ] here i9 fomething omitted which was exprefled in the Notation, Viz\ The Terme from which they are Called. Indeed , wee may gather by the Terme to which they are Galled £ which is expref* fed ] what they meane, but I conceive it would have been more cleare , efpccially becaufe fome thinke onely a Catling (17) Calling from Idols to be the terminut a quo ; the qtieftion in the old forme of baptizing feemes to exprcffe this terme from which : Doeft thou forfake the Dcvill and all his Workes, the vainePomp, &c > That which is not fufficient to entitle a man to Baptifme, is not fufficient to make a man a member of a Church, But the profeflion of* faith of fuch a perfon as the queftion mentions is not fufficient to make him a Church Member : Ergo. The major is granted of all, and muft be efpecially of thofe who fay, Baptifme makes us members of a Church* The minor I (hall prove afterwards. Obj. Tbif is true, if the Churches of England were now in their firfi conftitution, but here have been a fucceffion »f Churches for many yeares. Aaf* That which doth conftitute a Church in its being, doth continue a Church in its being; if therefore a bare Height profeflion be not enough at firft to make a man a member of a Church, it is not enough to continue a man a member of a Church. Let Churches. theH be conftituted according to the rule, and let them be continued according to their rlrft confutati- on, or elfe exercife Difcipline, and reduce them to their firft conftitution. But this is the fad condition which want of faithful! MinifierS) Catechizing, and Difcipline hath brought our Churches to. Succeflion then anfwers nothing to continue fuch mem- bers of a Church, unleffe they be fuch as mould be in the firft conftitution. We may as well anfwcr this, as our Divines anfwer Beflermin his fifth note of a Church, Succeflio Apoftolic*, but I will not trouble the Reader. Our Churches then (hew what need we have of Difcipline, if Excommunication be too hard, being they are numerous, who are no other then the queftion mentions ; [ not that I meane we fhould prefently fall upon excommunication be- fore we have tried other meancs, and patiently waited, this were a wilde courfe ] then let us fee if fome other way may be found out to bring our Churches to fome better reforma- tion. I (hall humbly prefent my thoughts at th« end of the booke. F Having 08) Having thus made way, lfhall propound one Argument or two for the Negative, viz* That Miniitcrs by the Gofpell are not bound to baptize the children of fuch parents. My rirft Argument I take from the pra&ife of my reverend Fathers, and Brethren* I Such perfons as ( Vejure ) ought, and ( Ve fattQ ) are ex- cluded by godly Minifters from the Lords Supper, ought alfo to be excluded from their childrcns baptifme. But fuch perfons as the queftion mentions ( Vejure ) ought, and ( Vefafit Jare excluded from the Lords Supper : Ergc* The minor I need not prove; our Minifters print their Books to defend the jus of it, they have gotten the Aft of Par- liament to back them in it, and defafio we fee they doe it. The major muft be proved. If Baptifme doth feale to the fame Covenant which the lords Supper doth, and doth fignifie and feale as great blef- iingsand priviledges as the Lords Supper doth, then thofe who are excluded from the Lords Supper, ought alfo to be excluded from their childrcns baptifme : But the Antecedent is true, ergo the Confequent is true. For the Antecedents The Lords Supper is a feale belong- ing to the Covenant of Grace, fo is Baptifme as well as that. See ihe AiTero- Baptifme is a £gne and feale of our ingrafting into Chrift, techifmu* on' of remiffion of finsby his Bloud, of regeneration by his Spi- Ihcqucftion. rir, of Adoption^&c. What higher priviledges have you in the Lords Supper ? the ingrafting or being, is more then growth. The Confequence I prove thus : If the ground of exclulion from the Lords Supper be, be- caufe thefe perfons doe not appeare to the regular judgement of charity, to be fuch to whom thofe Priviledges doe belong ' that there are held out ; then the fame ground excludes them from their childrens Baptifme 5 where are as high priviledges as in the Supper 1 But that is the ground of exclufion ; ergo. My Argument runs upon my firft fuppofition, that the childc brings nothing with its conlidered as abftratted from (I*) from the parent, but it is the parent gives the right. I have obferved, if the Lor.ds Supper be adminiftred at noon, it may be halfe the Parifh is excluded ; but let any of them, if fix or more of them (hould come in the afternoon to have their children baptized, they are admitted without any fcruple. 1 pray,thofe whom you did exclude at noon,were they fuch as did vitiblyappeare to be under the Covenant of grace or not? if they did, why are they excluded ? if not, why then do you give that Ordinance to the childe which muft fuppofe the parent to be within the Covenant, and fo the childe taken in with him > here is a Beleever and no beleever in three houres dirlance,it may be, and yet the man the fame. Obj. A man may have a fttndamcntall right to the Lords Supper, but through fomefinne intowbicb be is fallen and obftinate, be may be fujp ended from it, and yet have bis right to Bapti(me ? An[. i . 1 am not againft fufpenfion in fome fence, though Amef. Med. I know many are 5 graduall and tender proceedings in weigh- Theo. I. i.c.$7* ty matters I approve of, unlefle the cafe be very notorious j Tfl * 10 ' the inceftuous perfon caft out Without any fufpenfion. 2 But then 1 would make this Quaere j Whether the parent being under finne, and obftinate, and thereupon fufpended from the Supper, may not his childe alfo be fufpended for tTieprefent, till he declares his repentance, for the childe de- pendeth on the parent, and is efteemed as he is in this cafe of Baptifme ? % But for the fufpenfion as ic is in England, I know not what tothinkeofit. 1 Did the Church proceed regularly, bring in their Wit- nefles, and labour to convince him, bring him to a fight of his finne, and humiliation for it, before they did fufpend him ? alas, it is no fuch matter ; nay, the people are fo ac- cuftomed to this, that they never trouble their Minifters to de- fire the Supper of them. 2 When you have fufpended, what doe you with them ? what, follow them ftil to bring them to confeflion of, and hu- miliation for their finne ? No fuch matter, I never k new it to be fo, if any doe fo,I would not wrong them. 3 Sufpend them, but for how long I what, a yeare, nay F 2 three, (20) three, fix, ten years, as many are, and more,and let them alone and proceed no further > This is ftrange fufpenfion, how will Medal. Theo. y on warrant this ? Well, faith learned Ames> who doth ap- I. i. c. $7.th. p rove offufpeniion ; but faith he, In iftoc tamengradu non efi jubfiftendiiWy fedrefipifcentiabecpaftg & ftacio urgenda, & iRadef- pcrata, prcgrediendum tandem ad fegregationem completam a c$mm~ nionefidelium. Air. rocLp, 4 8i Mr. GiUejpie in an anfwer to an Argument of Mr. Prjnns thus faich ; c< Thofe who have been admitted to Baptifme, ought u to be admitted to the Lords Supper, Ceteris paribus ; if the 4t proportion hold in particulars, if they be as free from fcan- cc daious fins now when they defire to receive the Lords Sup- cc per, as they were when they delired to receive baptifme : fo I fay, Ceteris paribus^ if a man be as he was when his childe was baptized by vertueof him, if I can give the childe one fealeofthe Covenant by vertueof him, I will give him the other feale furely ; and it was never any fcruple to me to give that man the Lords Supper, by vertue of whom I could bap- tize his childe. Th« next Argument proceeds thus : Such Parents, as if they themfclves were now to be bapti- zed, ought not to be baptized, cannot juftly challenge Bap- tifme for their children, neither are we bound to admini- tfer it. But fuch Parents as the Queflion mentions, if they now were to be baptized, ought not to be baptized : Ergo, The reafon of the major lyes in this, becaufe Baptifme doth primarily belong to the parent, and but fecondarily to the childe by vertue of the parent * now i f he who (riould convey this right to the childe, have no right to it himfelfe, then he cannot give the right to the childe. The Lawyer faith, Arum baber.te poteftatem, Acts are fruftrate ; I juftifie the parents right to Baptifme, in baptizing of his children. For the minor, that fuch parents have no right, and ought not to be baptized ; the grounds which I brought before, to prove that fuch a one was not fit matter for a Church, prove this alfo : But 1 fhalladde more. Obj. Ibe Apoftles requited no more te Baptifme but a profeffion ef tbeirbeleefe 9 ai Aftsio^.e^ 8,37, &\6, 31.34. but tbefe doe fro-, On profsjfefotfiucb: Ergo tbe Parents bate right to Baptifme, and con- fequently tbe cbilde. Jnf. r. Fordid require more, ^#.2,38. Jtbn did require more conftantly. 2. To the places ailedged I anfwer j There was not fo much need of requiring more, for they in Ads 10. you may fee what manner of perfons they were, by their converfation. The Eunuch, A#J 8. we may fee what manner of per ("on he was 3 comming to worfhip, and how he (pent his time going home; the Jay lor now under the legall worke in aloft con- dition for him to belecve, it was his next worke; what is this to our Height profeffion of Faith, but ignorant,or fcandalous^ &c. they were not. ' ? A«g#/ri/zedire&lyanfwers to thisObjccYion ;Sone it feemi iri his time upon a bare profeflion of faith would baptize per- sons, though otherwife fcandalous, and objected this text of the Eunuch, in his bodke y Defide 3 & tf.cap. 9. in the begin- ning of the Chapter you may fee what points of Catechifme they were inftru&ed in before Baptifme, befides the beleeving JefusChrifttobetheSonofGod, but how grofly ignorant are our people in them points, which I doc not tranlcribe. Then to the objection he anfwers, In eo quod ait y Bafiizavit eum FbiliffMy intelligi voluit impleta omnia, qu* licet taceantur in Serif turn gratia. brevi\a\U % tamen ferie traditions fcimtts impl'nda* Thofe who read the whole Chapter will finde him ftrong e- nough againft this objeftion. As for that Booke, Vefde & operibuf> in his Retractions, J. 2. c. 39. He gives the reafon why he wrote the Booke, and what his fcope was in it : In que diftutavi nonfohm quemadmodum vivere debeant gratia Dei regenerate verum etiam quales ad lavacrum regenerations admiili. Thofe who will beftow the reading of Chap. 6 & 8.& 12.8c 17. & 18. efpecially, of thatBook,(haIl flnde I have a Champion on my fide, proving that a bare pro- feffion of faith is not fufficient to entitle a man to baptifme. ThcCatecbumeni in the Primitive times were fuch,as Imake no doubt for knowledge & converfation out- went thouf.J * of our £«£///& Proteftant?, they foon got more knowledge,, 8c did quickly in twodaye?, nay the firftday, when they gave them- felves up to become Chriftians, attaine as much as many of out ignorant (c~* have, they owned Chrift the fir ft day, (22) and many of ours do no more. What theft Crtecbumeni were inf ru&cd in, Auguftin pives a diort compendium, defide&op, c, 6 . towards the end. But theft Catecbnmm were not at the very firft baptized , but after they came to be competentes , &c. If we aske the Schoolmen, thej^ will tells us, there is more required to Baptifme , then a bare fleight prcfdfion of faith. p. 4 q.S.ar.2. Alex. Hales faith, in adulto accedente ad Baptifmum requiritut contritio, licet griginale peccatum mn impediat gratiam baptijmalim quando babe at effeclum in baptizato, tamen atluale impedit in adulto mn contrito. p.jq£8.a.4. Aquinas faith, Peccateribus, voluntatem peccandi, & in peccato perfeverendi prspofitum babentibus > baptifmus minime conferendm eft, &c. And in his Anfwcr to the fecond Argument he fpeaks plain- ly. Spirituali* medtcus feil: Cbriftus, operatur dupliciteriuno modo in- terim perfeip[um i & fie pr£parat voluntatem bomink,ut bonum velit,& malum odiat : alio modo operatur per miniftros exterius adbibendo Sa- cramenta, &fic operatur perficiendo exterius id quod eft interim inck- atum. Et idee, Sacramentum Baptifmi non eft exhibendum, nili ei, in quointerioris converfionis aliquod fignum apparet : ficut nee medicina corporalis ad bibetur infirmo? nifi in eo aliqm motus vitalis nature appareal. Who defires more theu Aquinas hath affirmed* Greg, i de Valen. He alfo is ftrong againft this, and beftowes T0.4. difp.4. q. paines about the queftion, he faith, ut adulti re&e accipiam bap- 3 ?-!• tifmum, atque etiam ut eis retle i.e. fine meruit pexcats Adminiftre- tur,necejfarium eft ut eot prater itorum peccatorum mortalium poeniteat & eft tertiffima ecclefite dollrina contra nonnutios veteres bfreticos.qui folamfidem, ut baptifmus prodejfet,requirendam putabanU In hise- fteerae then they are but Hereticks that fay onely Faith is e- nough to intitleto Baptifm, and quotes that book ofAuguftin of which I made men tioa before: this he doth not barely affert, but proves, by Ad: 2. where Feter bids them repent, &c. he quotes other Texts to good purpofe, Heb: 6. and Rom: 6. and iPet.6.3. and Mattb: 7. give not that wbicb it foly unto dogs, and Matth: 28. Voeete omnes gentes, baptizantos, 8cc.i,c*perfuadetefi- mi,utvelintejfe& fieri Cbrifti difcipuli, abjettaveteri cwfitctudine pee" peccant urn per panitemiam. So MaUb,%. John required repen- tance. After this he moves a queftion, what manner of repentance is required? and anfwers, Sufficere qmlemcmque penhentim im~ perfattam, qu£ tamen abfolule re movent Affectum adpeccatum> i. e. /*- ciat ut non arrplius vigeau Whether this repentance be caufed from fin, as it is an offence to God, or as it hath the guilt of cternall death accompanying it, or what ever caufe ( though fome, he faith after, as Navarre* &c. contend that it muft be for fin, as it is an offence to God ) yet he faith, from what principles foever this repentance for fin flowes, it muft have this effect, to take away the affection to fin, fo as it may not grow nor flourilh more. So alfo Vurandes , who denies indeed, that Contrith muft be ' 4-difp. 4-q-*> neceffarily required before Baptif me, yet there is, quxdamdif- plicentia peccatiCmmiffi licet infttmis & imferfe£ta>qu£ dkilur ami- tio, qu£ licet non fit [ujjiciens ad dolendum peccatum, eft tamen difpofuh fufficiens ad fufcipiendum baptifmum^ eoqmd tollit Fi&ionem. Ajid this faith he is meant in A8.2. Repentance then muft be joyned with faith in thofe who are admitted to baptifmeC if adnlti Jin the Schoolmens opinion. This is more then a Height profeflion, to fay, Ibeleeve in Chrift:yea 5 ora Height con feffion of fin^whichM.Pr^fpeaks of. .Learned Gillefpie I find very ftrong for me in this point. Aar r0( j » v Whereas Mr. Prynn had affirmed that in the Apoftles times, a meer externall Height eonfeflion of fin [which is more ] and profeflion of Faith, was fufficient to inable finners to be bapti- zed. He Anfwers, I utterly deny it as moft falfe, and as a re- proach caft upon the Apoftles,and fo anfwers to that ofPbil/ipf baptizing Simon magus , he fhould have proved ( faith he ) that Simon Magus was known to be in the gall of bitterneffe, when Phillip baptized him. After this he faith, we read of no perfons of age baptized p * 14. by the Apoftles, except fuch as did profefle faith in Cbrift, gladly received the Word 3 and in whom fome begun work of t he fpirit of grace did appear [ though it may be not real.] A- quinas faid as much before. I belctve (faith he) no confeiencious Minifler would adven- P * f ** ture to baptize one who hath manifeft and infallible fignes of mi- t»4) ,, unregenzration , wee cannot be anfwerable to God if wee (hould, 8cc t If it were a prophanation of baptifme, to baptize a Caiechu- meni 5 a Jew> or a />*£<:« profefling a refolution to turneChri- flian, he being manifcftly under the power of abominable p. 544. reigning fins, and ftill a wicked liver, although he were able to give a found and Orthodox Confeflion of Faith, then the Lords Supper, &c. Hismindethenis, a bare profeffionof Faith is not fuffici- ent. Thoufands of ours can give noOrthodox confeflion, they are fo ignorant, and thoufands as fcandalous • The Minor is proved. Obj. But the Parent if baptized^nd that gives right* Ergo, this fuppofitionis nothing* Anfa\ Does the Church perform thek duty, in fuffering fuch a perfon to continue in the Church, who {how notfo much as giveth a right to Baptifme > Exercife Difcipline tfien. But this intimates clearly, that it is the Parents being bap- tized which gives the Title, yea, and this alone, for though the perfon cannot be judged fit to give the right upon other grounds, as being a \ifible Saint, and Church member, yet hi* baptifm will doit. 1 Hence I argue , If the Parents baptifm givts the right to the Infants baptifm,thcn an excommunicate perfon may juftly challenge baptifme for his child* The Confequence is clear._ The Excommunicate perfon doth not loofc his Bap- tifme. But the excommunicate perfon cannot juftly challenge : As before proved. 2 I would put this cafe,fuppofe a man[to be newly converted to the faith, and fo as he appears a reall Convert, healfois admitted into the Church this day, but poffibly, not baptized that day, but it is deferred to the next ; but on the fudden he is taken fick, and by reafon of this, baptifme cannot be admi- niftred unto him, and poffibly he dyeth of his difeafe ; [the ftory of Falentinianut fending to uimbrofe for his baptifme, is well (*5) well knowne, who dyed before he was baptized] fuppofe in this time while he lyes in his fickneiTe, he mould have a childe borne unto him, now what would our Divines doe with this childe, baptize it or not? the Father is not baptized as yet, nor can receive it, but he is a member of the Church, and for ought we can fee a godly man, I prefume charity would ftraia hard before we would deny the childe baptifme 5 then it is not the baptifme of the parent that conveyes the right, for here is onebaptifed [the excommunicate perfon]and yet his childe ought not to be baptized, and here is one not baptized, and yet his childe may be baptized So that I conceive it is the Parents being visibly in Cove- nant, and joyned to the Church, which as it is the ground of his owne baptifme, fo it is that which doth primarily, and radically convey the right to the childe. For thofe who conceive that it is baptifme which makes us members of a Church, my former fuppofition will be fleigh- ted by them ; but I am fure all Divines are not of that mind, nor will reafon force it. What were all the children of the Jews before they were eight dayes old> or in cafe they Were (ick,and fo their Circumcifion was deferred, were they not looked upon as members of the Jtvpifi Church, together with their parents ? if fo, then Circumcifion did not make them members. Baptifme is a priviledge belonging only to a Church,there- foreitfuppofesaChurch,andthatOrganicall, for none but Officers can difpenfe it P what was it then firft made this Church ? If baptifme make a man a member of a Church, what doe you When you difmember a man by excommunication, doe you null his baptifme. lAmefius anfwering to Bellarm* who had faid, Nott bapti- Bu&encr.to 1 Ziti ktretici excommumcaii^ &c. nm five Ac ecckfia, faith thus ;/. 2.V. 1. De infant ib us fidelium, &fidelibm nondum baptizatif, adsl mani- fefte fdfum eft quod affirmatur, ut nifi babendi tales ejfent fro mmbris ecdeji£) non deberent bapt'izari Bapttfmus enim [ua natura eft figll- lum infitionU jam fatte in Cbrijfum atque tdw in ecckfi This for the text. 2 Further, the Anabaptifts make the filence of the NeUr Tcftament concerning infant fraptifrae to be a great argument againft (27) againft it, to me it is a great argument for it, which I make thus to appeare. We know the nulling of Circumcifion,what a duft it made in the Churches in the Apoftles time, how they were troubled with it, as witnerTe Pauls Epiftle to the Galatians , Co to the Pbilippians, and that, Att* 1 5 . a long journey it coft him, the Sy- nod is called, the buiineffe is about Circumcifion, the cleared ground we have for a Synod was occalioned upon this quefti- on 5 now Circumcifion was but an externali fcale of the Co- venant of Grace, and that a painfull Ordinance ; when it was removed they had another come in the roome, as fignificant as that, and more eafie, it is but the change of the Seale; now if the change only of a Seale made fuch a ftirre in the Churches, as I have (howne, then furely the calling out of all their Pofterity, and not giving them any initiating feale in the roome of Circumcifion would have made a greater duft ; For circumcifion it is a fair anfwer; O Jews^wc have done you no harme, though you have this removed, here is another come in the roome of it more cade, figniticant, &c. But fup- pofe the-fevees and Gentiles converted had faid 5 But what doe you with our Pofterity, muft not they have this Ordinance as well as we > what, do you cad them out of the Church > where (hall we finde an anfwer to this in all the New Teftamenr, for the children being excluded, there is not one text or fillable nb y^v qttidem, inalltheNewTeftament,asIfaid, ^tf.2i.2l. they did thinke their Children mould be taken in with them ; had Paul taught them, you muft not Circumcife your Chil- dren, nor Baptize them, this had been Something, but the ftirre,as you may fee by A8. 15. was not in regard of the fub- ject, the childe, but the Circumcifion. I am confident it would have been as great a block to hin- der the Jems from receiving of Ch rift, as could be. What, this is a ftrange Do&rine, that whereas our children have be- fore been owned with us under the Covenant j here is a Do- ftrine cafts them out, and leaves them as the Heathen. The Anabaptifts then muft bring me as expreffe texts, to prove that the Infants of Beleevers muft now be left out, and not owned in the Covenant with their parents, as I can bring them expreffe texts, that Circumcifion is aboliihed, or G 2 elfe (28) elfe 1 will never beleeve their Doftrine^ 3 Another Argument fell in my courfe, preaching through thefecondoftheEf^4»/,inverf.il.the Apoftle to make the Epbefians highly to prize the eftate they were brought into by the Free Grace of God, andChrift, he puts them in minde of their miferable and forlorne condition they were in before \ this is reckoned up as one thing to fet it out, they were Gentiles in xheflejhy c ailed uncircumcifion bj that which U called Circumcifion ; this was the initiating fcale then : Now, who are called thus uncircumcifion? The Gentile parent and his childe; Who called him fb ? The Jew Circumcifed and his childe , if then the Gentile belecver is baptized himfelfe, but the children are not, then this which is reckoned as a note of the miferable and forlorn condition of the Gentile before his converfion, is ftill upon him after his converfion, in the greateft part ; the Epbefians might well have anfwered 5 nay ?*«/, you (hall not need to reckon up that as one thing to fet out our mifery by, for that ftill is upon us in greateft part, for though we our felves arc taken into Covenant, and have the initiating feale, yet our children have it not, but are left as Heathens ftill, but fo were not they who call us the uncircumcifion. Let there- fore the parent and the children alfobe taken in,then it is re- moved, as no doubt the 19, ver. proves, fellow Citizens. 4 Another argument 1 would ufc is this ; we finde many promifes made to the pofterity of godly parents, Gen. 17. 7. Exod. 20. 6» Pfal. 1 1 2. 2. Prov* 20. 7. lfa m 44. 3,4. & 54, 1 3 . now if the children of fuch parents (hall grow up, and though they are but young, yet reading,they finde fuch promifes, or heareofthem* it feemes thefe poore children muft not how goe and lay hold of the Promifc, claime it by vertue of their parents; if they fhould goc and fpread thefe promifes before the Lord, and plead ; Lord, haft not thou made thefe pro- - mifes to the children of godly parents, I amfuremy Father,' or my Mother was fuch a one, now Lord make good thefe promifes to me, who am the childe of fuch 3 this were no- thing, for fure if God will not fo much as give them an out* ward feale of the Covenant by vertue of the parent, the poore childe cannot plead thefe promifes which come by the parent ; but what life fuch promifes are of to the children of fuch pa- rents i*9) rents ( I thank God ) I know by experience, who £ though f have a mod wretched heart ] would not part withthefepro- mifesout of Gods book for the beft eft ate of any Anahapiiflin England, the Lord (I praife himjhath taught me from a youth' to plead the promifes, yea, and when I could findeno other, bottome to pitch on in times of temptations and fearchings, I have run to thefe promifes and pleaded^Lord I own my Fathers Covenant,! ftand to that 5 and have refolved to go to hel with thefePromifes if I do go,and here 1 have found fome flay. Now the word having experience joynedto it>is to me more then all the talk of Anabaptifts. To put an end to this, and fo return to our Argument. The morelftudy thisDo&rinofthe Anaptifts, I thank God the more I fee into the falfehood and vileneffe of it, and do think Sur p of DI£ that holy and learned Mr. Hooker hath not pafTed too (harps a p " 3 ' cenfure upon it, when he calls it, the wretched Doclrin of the A- nabapti/fs. Now to return to the CommifTion, Perfons made Difciples, by teaching or calling [as fay the London Miniftersbefore] thefe , are (uch as muft be baptized. Some of our Divines observing what ufe the Anabaptifts make of lAA^niivja-n make ye Difcipfes they anfwer it is a Criticifm,and fo wave itjbut I think we (ha, not need to be fo fhy of it, let them take their notion, it (half not trouble me ; fori make no queftion when I baptize thl Infant of a parent that is aDifciple, I baptize alfo an In-e fant Difciple. But if the parent be not a Difciple, then I can- not look at the child as fuch, which is the thing my Argument looks at. But for this word, \>*'$M'nv™m> to be thus rendred, certain- ly that John 4. 1. doth make it clear, when the Pharifee heard, •77 luffHt *m\iU» &c. Whence Mr. Cartwrigkt, qusdautem dicitur fecijfe&baptizajfe difcifulosJtcutMat.iS. 1 9.^^- 7iWt* jB^7rx/^7?f. Docetur prim zffe Vifcipulss Chri^i, quam baptif- mi Sacramento obf^nantur : advsrfus illos qui baptifmo Cbriflianos fie- ri putantfoc. He then renders the word fo, and fo doe others who are no Anabaptifts : As Zanchy. Confiituite mibi difcipulos, In fcon. psj.p... hoc enim efl propria |faeSmleir 5 facere^ futfcrmV. So Gerhard in /0c. 440, So Parens in loc. Nay, reafon will force it, for what if you teach the Nati- ons, fuppofc they will not receive your doctrine,wtll you bap- G 3 tize tizethem> no fare, but as Mr. Wil we admit of fuch Schollars into a School,that wil come and learn as they pleafe, and do what they pleafe,but tel their Matter he dial ufe no dis- cipline? no fure. For making them Difciples by calling. I am very much incli- ned to think, that much of our Religion is grounded upon the State, Sc taking up by traditionut appears fo,by many in their wofull ignorance,and fo Minifters (peak in theirSermons. But for calling by the word,cither by Catechifm when they were young, or by the word preached . I beleeve the word never Lad any effecl: upon them, hence we find them have a notion, God is merciful, and we mult repent, and this is all. For the State, though I conceive the State is bound to compel the Subjects to attend upon converting Ordinances, yet they have not power to compell the Minifteryto give the Sacraments, but where the word doth feem (at leaft apparenter} to have had fome effecT:. To call very ignorant perfons, fcandalous, (cor- ners of the Members of Chrift, that can jeer at them^and hate them, and who rcfufe to ftoop to his difcipline, Chrifts dif- cipels, I think no ferious Minifter wil do it. If then the parent benoDifciple, the childe is none, therefore I go beyond my commiilion when I baptize fuch a one. 4 1 (hall but touch two Arguments more. To adminifter the feale of the Covenant of grace to a childe, by vertue of him who is viiibly in Covenant with Satan, muft needs be a prophaning of the Ordinance. B Jt to adminifter baptifme to a child by vertue of fuch a one as the queftion mentions, is to adminifter the fealof the the Covenant of grace to a child by vertue of one who is vi~ fibly in Covenant with Satan* Ergo. For the Major, you fay it is a prophaning of the Lords Supper to admit fuch an one to it, er s e, you exclude him, and may not the Sacrament of baptifme be prophaned as welljhav- ing as great priviledges fignified by it > For the Minor. A perion grofly ignorant in the fundamen- talls of Religion, his courfe of life, his trade, is to live in finne, fcandalous, &c. what fhall wee fay of fuch an one : though he doth not formally make a Covenant with the De- vil J,yet we know in what fenfe we take fuch exprefllons of our Miniftcrs. I wonder how Minifters pray when they baptise the childe of fuch an one, they cannot but have fome eye to Gods Cove- nant, and do we not mention fo much to the Lord^ that he having taken the parent into Covenant with himfelfe, h* doth alfo theTeed of the Parentjand fo we plead theCovenant,ancI a blefling, &c. but when a godly Minifter fhall carry the parent in his heart thus,doth not his heart check him,trouble him iii the thought of the Parent > If you fay the parent is in Covenant, for he is baptized, I mould give my former anfwer. And further I fay, if he be in Covenant, why doe you conflantly exclude him from the l.ords Supper, and not proceed, as I faid in ray firft Argu* ment ? If you fay it is not by vertue of him but his Predeceffbrs, I fhall defire to fee more light firfl,and what I have faid to that queftion clearly removed. 5 I (hall not draw thefeinto form, but I defire they may be ferioufly confidered. I How exceedingly this Ordinance is fleighted, abufed, through this heedles adminfftring of the Ordinance, for we fee perfons never minde the Ordinance before hand, nor after ; but come let m have our children baftized, and that is all, if they can make a Feaft and drinke after it, that is well. Why do we tell people of preparing themfelves to the Lords Sup- per,and not as wel to this, I know of noOrdinance fo abufed as this is, and this hardens men, and fettleth them on their lees^ for if they come to Church 3 and haye their children baptized what care they for more, a, Be- (3*> 3 BefideSjitisftrangetofeehowwe jumble the mod holy and prophane men in the Nation together 5 if Maftec GreenbamM£Perk{ns>yir.'Rogers,Mr: t Vod, or : whom you will, (hould come and bring their children to be baptized, let the mod ignorant fot, Drunkard, Swearer, uncleane perfon, fcor- ner of godlinefle, &c. come, he (hall have his childe baptized as well as they ; Have they their children taken into Cove- nant ? fo have I, fayes the Drunkard, Swearer, Sic. Shall we owneallthefe men alike ander the Covenant, fo as to give the feale of the Covenant alike to all } Would not a ferious Minifter having two children brought together to baptize, the parents of thefe children (land by, the father of the one a holy man, the father of the other a very wretch, a mock- God, f the mothers of the children alfo differ as much ) for the Minifter now to joyne both thefe together in his prayer, and adminifter the feale of the Covenant to both alike by vertue of thefe parents, would it not trouble him in his Aft > Obj. But to come to the great objection*. The Jems though very wicked, had their children circumctfed ; ergo. Anf. I confefle this is a hard knot to untye, I defire fome who have better fingers then I, would lend their help here, I fhall propound my thoughts by way of anfwer. Am. rod. c 4,^ There was excommunication among the Jewes, thofe who deny it let them grapple with flout GMeftie, who proves it, and fhewcs the caufes of their excommunication, fome where- of Chriftians may be guilty of; if perfons were excommuni- cated, fome fay their children were not circumcifed, as I quoted Mr. Gillejpie before; but I doe not much preflethis. 2 I conceive for ignorance they were not fo guilty as are many of ours, though the knowledge of Chrift was very lit— ♦_ ^ tie, yet in Mofes Law they trained up their children, better ' then thoufands of ours; what care they have Buxtorfe re- ports, though it is very much to obferve, they (hould be fo unacquainted with the Prophets, where Chrift i$ moft made knowne under the Old Tcftament, as he relates. But to come more clofe to the anfwer. 1 I deiire my reverend Fathers and Brethren would give mecleareproofe, that the Priefts did debarre thoufands of the C 3 3) the people from the PaiTeover for morrdl uncleanneffes £ for as for Ceremoniall unckanneffes they d<5e not trouble us, we can admit fuch to the Lords Supper] and thus they did de- barre them fix, ten 5 twenty yeares together [as our Divines doe thoufands in this Kingdome, though they have the Lords Supper oftner then they had the PaiTeover ] and yet though they were thus debarred, they did circumcife their children, £ as our Divines doe baptize, notwithftanding their fufpen- lion, and that without any paines to b*'ing them to humilia- tion, &c. ]thls now will fpcake fomething if it can be pro- ved, but I muft have good grounds to beleeve ir. 2 I conceive there was fomething peculiar to them in the conftitution of their Jcwiili Nationall Church, from ours under the Gofpell; there God takes Abraham, enters into Covenant with him, layes the foundation of the Church in his Family, and commands him to circumcife his feed ; the constitution of our Churches doe not begin with any particu- lar perfon, £«f, ma\\e Bifciples^ and baptize. Now though I con- ceive the difcen ding from Abraham according to therlefh was not the fole ground of adminiftring Circumcifion, yet I am . apt to thinke there was fomething peculiar to them, in being Jfrael after tbefle(h ; and thefe grounds lead me to think fo. 1 When thefe Jewes came to Johns baptifme, they were not admitted without any moreadoe, but he required con- feffionoffinsfirft, repentance; it was not fufficiencto plead we are Abrahams Seed, therefore baptize us, as well as we are e'reumcifed by being his Seed ; but as I faid, he requireth re- pentance, yea and fo as Mr. Gillefpie conceives, that John a\\& Adrxoi >?iU not baptize thofe Pharifees, and concludes with the Centu- rifts, John did not caftpe&rls before Sftine h he did not admit rajbly ?****• any that wouldji baptifme y but [uch as confeffed their fins ; that if, only fuck as were tryed, and did repent, but the contumacious, and the defen- ders of their impieties be did reje&. 2 We obferve when they fell into that foule Apoftafie, yet their children were Circumcifed, whether regularly or no I leave that ; but I would defire whether if any of our Church- Members fhould apoftatize to fo foule Idolatries, as the Calves at Dan and Bethel, Baal, the offering of their children to A/o- lotb, that uncleanc god VrUpm [ which learned Divines con- H ceivc (34) ccivctQ be the meaning of that place, Hof.4. 14. Tbemfelves are fefarated with whores, &c. Would you baptize their children? I doubt holy men would not doe it, you would fufpend their baprifraea while till they had repented, and declared their hatred again!! fuch idols. 3 I obferve, when they admitted any Heathens into the Church oi l\rael, they were very exaft, as Mr. Ainfwortb notes out of Maimonid. on Gen. 17. 1 2. they make diligent inquiry, left tbej come to get tkemfelves under the Law for riches, dignity, orfeare, or love to feme }ev:ifb woman, or man ; if no fuch li\e occafion be found in them, then they make kyowne to them the weightineffe of the yoke of the Law, and the tojle tbat U in doing thereof, to fee if the) will leave off; if tbey fee they with- draw not, and fee them tbat tbey come of 'love , tben tbey receive them, as Ru\b> 1. 18. now this is more then for one to come and profeflfe he did belecve in the God of Ifrael, therefore Circumcife me, &c. as fome conceive a bare profeffi- ©n that they beleeve in Chrift gives right to baptifm; thejews being trained up in their Fathers religion, and the religion of the Natiou 3 may feemeallof them to have this which they required oi the Profelytes, but I fhould preferre thefe things in a Profelyte, before the fame things in a meere carnall Jew. 3 It is true, the wicked J ewes being members of that Na- tionall Church fo long as their Memberfhip held, they might challenge Circumcilion; fofor wicked perfons fo long as ihey continue members, and the Church lets them alone, they may challenge baptifme ; but our queftion is, whether fuch perfons fhould be let alone, is not that Church to blame > though they are defaclo, members through want of the cxer- cife of Difcipline, yet the queftion is dejure, ought fuch to be members I 4 I conceive what-ever the Church of the Jeweswas, the Churches under theGofpel muftlook to fome with more ftricl:- neflfe, though I allow not that ftri&neffe and ridgedneffe Which fome would have, ( for an errour on the right hand is an errour as well as an errcur on the left ) yet I beleeve fome more ftri&neiTe ; there is ground why it mould be fo. I. We have more light then ever thejews had,in the know- ledge of Chrift especially ; they had the fliadow, we the body -, hence (35) hence the Apoftle, Gal 4. i.&c. compares the time of the Jewifh Church, to the time of child-hood. 2 The Spirit of God is more given out under the Gofpel then before, if we confider the buike of Chriftians, Gods peo- ple have more of the Spirit now then his owne had under the Law, and fo I beleeve the fame Spirit doth reftraine more un- der the Gofpel^ fuch as come not to reality of grace -, I will not enlarge upon this head. 1 Hence we finde in Scripture, Ez^ 44. 7- 9. (which re- fpe&sthe Churches under the Gofpel) God reproveth not only the bringing of Strangers into his San&uary who were uncircumcifed in the flefh,but the bringing of thofe who were uncircumcifed in heart, that is,known to be fuch,forD? [ccreti* 7i9?i judical ecclefia ; fuch ought not to have fellowship in holy things. 2 Hence againc we finde the condition of the Churches under the New Tcftament fet downe, I[a. 52.1. which Matter ^ #ro j p, !07< GMefyie proves to be underftood of a Church vifible,and mini- fteriall. 3 Hence we finde the Churches of A ft a commended, or re- proved, as they kept their Churches from pollution, or fuf- fered wicked perfons to live in them, TLeveL 2. 4 Hence we finde Church Difcipline more clearly layed 0- p«n in the New Teftament then in the Old, Mat, 18.15, &c. 5 Hence, 2Tbef*%% i*. 14. we finde Paul writing to the Churches, to note fuch perfons who did not obey the Word, though but an idle perfon. 6 Hence we finde a command to excrcife Difcipline againft feverall perfons, 1 Cor. 5. It. Of this laft text a few words 5 No not to eate. Some, and rnoft Divines that 1 fee fay, it doth prove fufpenfion from the Lords Table, and Excommunication 5 fome Divines I have heard, [ but read very few ] fay it is meant only of civill familiarity ; fo I heard Mr. Edwards once in the Pulpit, fo another, whom I muft reverence. Mr. Prynne he is fo peremptory in it, that he fcornes all the Divines who have affirmed the contrary. For the godly Minifters who are of Mr. Pryrms judgement, I fliall but only propound one queftion to them ; If that be your opinion of the place, then what is the reafon your Parifhes H 2 have ( l6) have been fo long deftitute of the Lords Supper > Why are you Co troubled to thinke of one ? Is it not becaufe there are com- panies of rulty, rugged, rich fdlowes in our Parities, bad e- noutfh, who will croud in if we goe about it ? but what I pray would you have thefe doe, keep eff? fureiffo, you will con- firms the interpretation to be meant of fuipenfion at Ieaft,that 25, Excotntrtunicah minor, and what is the caufc of that, if obfli- nacy continues, will deferve the high* r excommunication 5 I would never fcruple the giving of the Lords Supper to all my Pa rim [_ if they have but knowledge ] if that text refpetts only civiil familiarity. Taxi I (hall proceed, and fet down fome Divines ofnofmall note, who are for the firft interpretation, and that it is meant of Excommunication., I doe notietdowne their words, be- caufe of trouble, but if you pleafe to read thefe places I referre to, you (hall findc what I affirme. Au^uft.Homil^o. Calvin in Loc. & infiitu. L 4. c. 12. Sett. 4, 5 Beza his Anmtc. on the ninth v. of the Chap.Ztfwc6.in 4th. Pre- c only one thing I take notice of,hc is content to yeeld that (ome perfons may be fxcommu nkated, and all the warrant he gives us for excom- munication is from 1 Qr.j. iritis readily yeeldtdjbat grojfe notc^ Thus <*7) rkw> fcandalous, obfr'm&le finners 7 wbo prefumptuoujly perjcverein their iniquities >a fter private andpublikg admonitions jshbout remit fe of Con- feience y or amendment, may be j»/r/y excommunicated from tbeCburcb>ib; fociety of the faithful!, and all publicly Ordinances s afier due proof 9 and te- gall cohiittion §f 'their fcandalous liva&nd thar,i Cor t ^. 13. warrants tbttr mucb>no\wiibfxanding tbe various readings of tbetext.Thu&M.Pryn I perceive according to Matter Prynne , excommunica- tion reachcth but a few, and Minifters will have much trouble when they goe about it 5 for the perfons mnft be groffe notorious finners, obftinatc, fuch as doe prefumptu- oufly pcrfevere > What need rhefe words > Paul faith, 2 Tbeff* 3. 1 4. If any man obey not our word, Sec. note thac man ; though but an idle perfon who will not labour, ver. i*. Now is this fuch a groffe notorious fin with Mr. Pryn ? the incettuous perfon, we doe not finde he did prefumptuouily perfevcre after private and publike admonition, for the Cnurch was negli- gent, yet Paul bids them put him away. Why will not obfti- nacy in a lefler (in, though not fo grofiy notorious, deferve ex- communication > for the exclufion of excommunicate per- fons from all Ordinances [the word preaching, which is the meanes to convince and humble, and to which the Heathens are admitted ] it is more then ever I faw praftifed among the Churches of NewEngland^ndthev can I fee any reafon for it,but J*aime at fomething elfe * that text, he faith, warrants excom- munication, but none elfe in all the Bible ; for he difputes a- gaintt all the reft, that our Divines bring for excommunica* tion, at leaft the moft eminent texts, as M«ttbew 18. 17. which is not meant he faith of excommunication; the warrant then Matter Prynne gives us is from thefe words, Therefore put away from your felvts that wicked perjon. I fuppofe when Mr. Prynne tells us what perfons he would have ex- communicated, he means all (uch perfons fo qualiified as he there fets down* Though he hath not put the note of univer- fality to his long Proportion, yet he meanes, it isauniver- fall Proportion. Then let us fee how that Text proves his pro- portion. The Apoftle in thofe words doth but apply his former dif- courfe unto that particular incettuous perfon, then Mr. Prynm argument muft run thus. H l The . (33) The Inceftuous pei ton was to be excommunicated. Ergo, All grolle notorious tinners, that prefumptuOufly perfevere after admonitions [[which ic feems this peifon had not 3 VC to be excommunicated. What logick have~we here t auniverfall Conclufion in a Contract Syllogifme ?draw it into forme and fee how it runs. The Inceftuous perfon was a notorious finner, &c.as Mr, Frjnne defcribes. The Inceftuous perfon was excommunicated. Ergo, All notorious finners, &c. arc to bee Excommuni- cated. This is no good logi eke, fince Mr. Vrynn denies all other Texts to prove excommunication but this, 1 cannot tell how he will prove that any but fuch Inceftuous perfons as this per- fon was, of whom the Text fpeakes, mould be excommunica- ted. Pauls logick is very good. All fcandalous impenitent finners within the Church,are to be excommunicated,!/. 1 1 . The Inceftuous perfon, is a fcandalous impenitent (inner within the Church. Ergo y The Inceftuous perfon is to bee excommunica- ted. If any Object. Neither can we prove the excommunication of all notorious, obftinatc finners from that,2/.i I. Erg<^ Nei- ther is your logick good, I Anfwer,There was no need why the Apoftle fhould reckon up all fcandalous finners that tnuft be excommunicated in one verfe. But. iWehavingageneralrule 3 ^/4M8.i5,i6,&c.[itisavery ab- furd conceit of them, who expound the offence there menti- oned, to be only fome private injury which my brother may offer me • it is fpoken to often enough, therefore I leave it.] 2 We having other texts that guide us,as 2Thejf t ^. 14. which isaifo a generall rule, andT/f. 3. IO.& 1 lim. 1.20. for he- refie. 3 The Apoftle in this eleventh verfe, enumerating divers Sins, Fornication, Drunkenneffe, Idolatry, Extortion, Co- vetoufnefTe, railing, [ not fpeaking of one particular perfon, as (l9J as that daufe in the i^.v.cxprefTeth] he Apjftle need not rec- kon up all fins:Thefe by a rule oi propoi tion 5 with other text* being laid together, will help us to draw out a univerfall pro- position concerning perfons that fhould be (Xcommunicated^ better then that one particular example, which only he will allow us to be a warrant for excommunication of all notori- ous finners-, I could draw out the proportion from theft 1 tferee heads, but h is Co obvious to any intelligent Readers eye, that I fpare the paines, I leave Mr. Ptynne, and goe to the text. It is worth the obfervation what 'Mr. GiUefpie faith ! Had the Apofile faid /imply, mt to cate, the argument for civill familiarity bad £*>*>*<&• \'7- been more colourable ; but after be bad twice f aid y net to fr x cep company, to adde,«o not to eate, doth plainly intimate the Apofileargu- eth from the leffe to the greater, and that there is (ome other fellowship with fuch a one, &c. For my part, it fcemes flrange to me, that a man fhould be reputed a Brother, a member of a Church, admitted to all the Ordinances, under no Cenfure, and yet I muft not fhew him fo much familiarity as I may a Heathen, to whom I may goe if he invites me: i Cor. 10. 27, but not to my broth er, af- ter excommunication, indeed the vcrfe takes place \ 0/, orida. in loc- God, l Cor * 4. *• That we may uf e all means to fave the foule, verfe 5. Something I obfervc out of ver. 1 2. which feemes to me to prove this no net to e do&rinall judging is not only meant, the next verfe (till makes it cleare ; but them that are without God judgetb> therefore put away from your fclvts that wicked perfon : Here Paul judges, and the Church doth judge * judging then here is excommunication, I fee I am not alone in my notion, but upon fearch I found fomc othert who back me in my interpretation. Pifcator is piaine, his fecond Aphorifme ( as he calls it ) is this ; Excommunicato eft judicium feu deer etum^ feu denique fententU diclio^ colligitur ex verbis Jpoftoli, ver. 5 . Ego )udiuvi jam ut pr£fens* Item. ver. 1 1. Nonne de eU qui intus fu*\y vos judical if ? So alfo Par em upon the word \udicatU ; Docet igiiur cenfurm Ec cleft afiicai n Is there not danger of aChriftian who (hall familiarly converfe with a Heathen^ whofe mouth is full q£ unclejne fil- thy (35) thy fpeeches, and bafe ge (hires ? (o to be in a Drunklrds com- pany, to fit quaffing with fuch a one, is there not danger though he be a Heathen? if you fay, yes fare, we ought to take heed of all occafions of finne, our hearts are as tinder to the fparkes ; therefore intimate familiarity is to be avoyded with fuch : Then I fay, if ho not to eate, be meant only of inti- mate drill familiarity, then Paul did judge thole who were without,as well, and as much, as thofe who were within, and he makes no difference between the judging of the one and the other, but this twelfth verfe faith,He had nothing to doe with thofe who were without. Further, this judging doth imply fome power and authori- ty put forth upon the perfons judged, in vex. II. here is the a& of Rulers, the Officers of the Church, together with the fraternity confenting with the Officers \ in excommunication this is feene indeed, but not in the denying of civill intimate familiarity with one,which I can alfo deny to one/wer whom I have no power nor authority* This difcourfe I have run into by occafion of my la ft anfwer to the Objection, fo that for the prefent I am not much mo- ved with the Argument: though I know it is that which is moftufed, I hope fome others will give better an fivers, pre- funaing that fiace they pra&ifeas they doe, and have beene longer at their fmdiesthen I have been, they are better fur- nifhed then I am with arguments to defend their pra&ife. There is but one more Objection, and that is commonly u- OlUtt* fed ; if you pra&ife thus, you will make abundance in Eng- land) and in your Parifli,to be no better then Heathen?. 1 anfwer ; Thoufands of our people are fufpended from the i <*sf*[xv. Lords Supper many yeares together, and your fufpenfion is excommunicato minors follow home your Difcipline, and I doubt you muft come to excommunicate thoufands, and if fo, you will make them as Heathens 5 you doe a great deale to- wards it. 2 I doe not looke upon all thofe whofe children I admit not to Baptifme as Heathens, but as Church-members in a large fen fe, through want of Catechizing and Difcipline, o- ver-grown with ignorance and profaneneffe, I conceive they have a fundamental! or remote right (as I may fay) to the bap- I tifme (34) tifme of their children, yea and to the Lords Supper,you mull not deny it, if you oivne them to be Chsrch- members, how- ever cuftorre hath prevailed to the exclusion of them from it, without regular proceeding, and labouring to bring them to repentance 3 and that I doe not look at them as Heathen, &c. this is one demonftracion, for fuch as I doe now refufe to bap- tize, it may be the next childe God giveth the Party I doe bap- tize it, the Parent gives now feme better hopes then before, his converfation is more reformed, &c. but this paren 1 1 doe not baptize, which 1 fhould doe if I looked on him as a Hea- then, and no member of a Church, being he was not excom- municated. Heathens, and non- members of Churches ( who were never excommunicated ) when they are taken into a Church, they are baptized ; and thus it is in New England, thofe whom they take into their Churches; they doe not baptize a- gaine [ the parents I meane. ] The Anabaptifts who deny the Churches o( England, doe fo indeed. 3 Since then our Churches through want of Catechizing, and Difcipline ? are growne thus ignorant and corrupt, and to exercifeDifcipline it is very hard, theperfons are numerous, who are as the Qiieftion mentions: I propound this Queftion ; A Ob) Jf you fay thit doth but draw men into a formality of religion. Oh] eft. I anfwer, if a man (hall profefle this unto me, that God hath An fa* made him fee himfelfe utterly undone without Chrift, and fo doth truft and reft upon Chrift for falvation, and to this pro- feffion the things I mentioned are adjoyned, viz. Competent knowledge, converfation not fcandalous, fets up religious du- ties in the family 5 and fubje&s to Difcipline 5 Hook upon fuch a one as a vifible Saint, and I am confident fuch a perfon mould have been received in the Apoftles times. Thofe who contemne this, and rouft have ftri&er rules to go by, Let them fet pen to paper, if their arguments be cogent Iwillyeeld, if not, fomebody will be ready to anfwer them. I had rather grapple with thofe who think I am too large [[as there are fome about me, but I cannot get them to difputati- on ] then with thofe who judge me to be too (freight. Concerning this fufpenfion from both the Sacraments for a time,though I confeffe the Ley den Profeflburs are againft me,^ ?* P ar * f/z/p«44. tb.50. unto which I conceive fome anfwer hath been given in my former difcourfe : Yet Pi/p.48. they feem to allow this, at the 27 The/ts, there is a qtreftion moved, whether if there be a great multitude in the Church, who offend in do- ctrine or life, may we now ufe excommunication, or'exclu- I * fion (3§) fion from the Sacraments ? thereafon of the queftion they give, in the 28 7bcf: they feemtobe for non-communion, a feceffion from them if overgrowne with herefie ; but as to the life in Tbefo 1. they give their anfwcr.I fhail rehearfe it,begin- ning about the midft of the Thefis. Sedfi ecclefttRettores flerique in bonum confpirent, exiflimo^ e'jufmodi bominibus aperte & contumaci- ter corruptis qttantalibet fttmultitudo> abiifdem Vaftojibut divin* gra- tis Sacramenta communicari nee pojfe nee debere x fed unanimi confettfu in ejfe neganda, & Pro eventum csmmendandum ; quia pit Paftores fig- na grati* iti Communicate non pejfunty quibus Cbrifxus ea aperte negat, & ne comwunieentur probibet \ & quia exempla in eccltfiis wflri tern- pork reperiri pojfunt, uhi ejufmodi negatU publica^ in publiea merum corrupted medium fuit & inftrumentum>quo ecclefia admelioremfta- lum fit redu8a>& morum major integritas revocata. Whereas they fay Sacramenta , and Signa gratity theymuft needs include baptil'me, for they owned but two Sacraments, and thus it feems they have done 3 and found good fucceffe,! am miftaken if they fpeak not the very thing, 1 have been pleading for. Thus I have troubled the Reader, in giving account of my a&ions, I truft I (hail not be offenfive to any of my reverend Fathers or Brethren, if I hold on my practice till I fee thefe grounds removed. I hope 1 have not fo handled the queftion, as to deferve a (harp Anfwer, I have endeavoured to give all due refpeft to thofe Miniflers who I fee pra&ife otherwife then I doe, efteeming their holinefle, gifcs,and learning far beyond mine. Willing I am to receive light from others, and dial rea- dily lay down my opinion and pra&ife when I fee ftrength of Argument compels me • it is no temptation to me, to fall on the charitable fide, but I (hall leave the controverfie to more able heads and better hearts. The mercifull Lord once againe return to his Ordinances, that we may fee hi« goings in his Sanctuary , as we have feen heretofore, and grant that pure Ordinances and pure hearts may meet together, FINIS. I ii