22(1 CoNGKESS. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 5^ . or Reps. 1st Session. REPORT STEAM CARRIAGES, SELECT COMMITTEE OF TIIE HOUSE OF COMMONS GREAT BRITAIN; TTITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE APPENDIX. REPRINTED BY ORDER OR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. M E n WASHINGTON: 5U3 DUFF GREEN, PRINTER. ^ if. . i83a- |S3& In the House of Representatives of the United States, February 9, 1832. On motion of Mr. Mercer, Resolved, That the Report of a Select Committee of the House of Com¬ mons of Great Britain, bearing date October 12th, 1831, on the use of Steam Carriages on Common Roads, with the Minutes of Evidence, and Appendix attached thereto, be printed. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 3 REPORT. The Select Committee appointed to inquire into, and to report upon, the pro¬ portion of tolls which ought to be imposed upon coaches and other vehi¬ cles propelled by steam or gas, upon turnpike roads; and also, to inquire into, and to report upon, the rate of toll actually levied upon such coaches or other vehicles under any acts of Parliament now in force; and who were instructed to inquire generally into the present state and future prospects of land carriage by means of wheeled vehicles propelled by steam or gas on common roads; and to report upon the probable utility which the pub¬ lic may derive therefrom; and who were empowered to report the mi¬ nutes of the evidence taken bofore them, to the House; have examined the matters referred to them, and agreed to the following report: The committee proceeded, in the first instance, to inquire how far the science of propelling carriages on common roads by means of steam or me¬ chanical power, had been carried into practical operation; and whether the result of the experiments already made had been sufficiently favorable to justify their recommending to the House that protection should be extended to this mode of conveyance, should the tolls imposed on steam carriages, by local acts of Parliament, be found prohibitory or excessive. In the progress of their inquiry, they have extended their examination to the following points, on which the chief objectiorts to this application of steam have been founded, viz. the insecurity of carriages so propelled, from the chance of explosion of the boiler, and the annoyance caused to travel¬ lers, on public roads, by the peculiar noise of the machinery, and by the escape of smoke and waste steam, which were supposed to be inseparable accompaniments. It being also in charge to the committee, "to report upon the proportion of tolls which should be imposed upon steam carriages," they have examin¬ ed several proprietors of those already in use, as to the effect produced on the surface of roads by the action of the propelling wheels. As this was too important a branch of their inquiry to rest entirely on the evidence of individuals, whose personal interest might have biassed their opinions, the committee also examined several very scientific engineers, by whose observations, on the causes of the ordinary wear of roads, they have been greatly assisted. The committee were directed also to report "on the probable utility which the public may derive from the use of steam carriages." ' On this point they have examined a member of the committee, well known for his intelligence and research on subjects connected with the interests of society, and they feel that they cannot fulfil this part of their instructions better than by merely referring the House to the evidence of Colonel Torrens. These inquiries have led the committee to believe that the substitution of inanimate for animal power, in draught on common roads, is one of tho most important improvements in the means of internal communication ever 4 [ Doc. No. 101. ] introduced. Its practicability they consider to have been fully established; its general adoption will take place more or less rapidly, in proportion as the attention of scientific men shall be drawn, by public encouragement, to further improvement. Many circumstances, however, must retard the general introduction oí steam as a substitute for horse power on roads. One very formidable obsta¬ cle will arise from the prejudices which always beset a new invention, es¬ pecially one which will at first appear detrimental to the interests of so many individuals. This difficulty can only be surmounted by along course of suc¬ cessful, though probably unprofitable, experiment. The great expense; of the engines must retard the progress of such experiments. The project¬ ors will, for a long period, work with caution, fearing not only the expense incurred by failure, but also that too sudden ari exposure of their success would attract the attention of rivals. It is difficult to exemplify to the House how small and apparently unimportant an adaptation of the parts of the ma¬ chinery, or of the mode of generating or applying the steam, may be the cause of the most rapid.success; yet he who, hy along course of experiment, shall have first reached this point, may be unable to conceal the improvement, and others will at once reap the benefit of it. The committee are convinced, that the real merits of this invention are such, that it may be safely left to contend with these and similar difficulties; there are others, however, from which the legislature can alone relieve it Tolls, to an amount which would utterly prohibit the introduction of steam carriages, have been imposed on some roads; on others, the trustees have adopted modes of apportioning the charge which would be found, if not ab¬ solutely prohibitory, at least to place such carriages in a very unfair position as compared with ordinary coaches. Two causes may be assigned for the imposition of such excessive tolls upon steam carriages. -The first, a determination on the part of the trus¬ tees, to obstruct, as much as possible, the use of steam as a propelling power; the second, and probably the more frequent, has been a misapprehension of their weight and effect on roads. Either cause appears to the committee a sufficient ju tificntion for their recommending to the House, that legislative protection should be extended to steam carriages with the least possible delay. It appears from the evidence, that the first extensive trial of steam as an agent in draught, on common roads, was that by Mr. Gurney, in 1829, who travelled from London to Bath and back in his steam carriage He states, that although a part of the machinery which brings both the propelling wheels into action when the full power of the engine is required, was broken at the onset, yet that, on his return, he performed the last eighty-four miles, from Melksham to Cranford bridge, in ten hours, including stoppages. Mr. Gurney has given to the committee very full details of the form and power of his engine, which will he found in the evidence. The committee have also examined Messrs. Summers & Ogle, Mr. Han¬ cock, and Mr. Stone, whose steam carriages have been in daily use. for some months past on common roads. It is very satisfactory to find that, although the boilers of the several engines described, vary most materia lly in form, yet that each has been found fully to answer the expectation ol its inventor So well, in fact, have their experiments succeeded, that in each case where the proprietors have ceased to use them, it has only b.en for the purpose of constructing more perfect carriages, in order to engage mote ex¬ tensively in the business. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 5 When we consider that these trials have been made under the most unfa¬ vorable circumstances—at great expense—in total uncertainty—without any of those guides which experience has given to other branches of engi¬ neering;—that those engaged in making them are persons looking solely to their own interest, and not theorists attempting the perfection of ingeni¬ ous models;—when we find them convinced, after long experience, that they are introducing such a mode of conveyance as shall tempt the public, by its superior advantages, from the use of the admirable lines of coaches which have been generally established—it surely cannot be contended that the introduction of steam carriages on common roads is, as yet, an uncertain experiment, unworthy of legislative attention. Besides the carriages already described, Mr. Gurney has been informed, that from "twenty to forty others are being built by different persons, all of which have been occasioned by his decided journey in 1S29." The committee have great pleasure in drawing the attention of the House to the evidence of Mr. Farey. His opinions are the more valuable from his uniting, in so great a degree, scientific knowledge to a practical acquaint¬ ance with the subject under consideration. He slates that he has "no doubt whatever but that a steady perseverance in such trials will lead to the general adoption of steam carriages:" and again, "that what has been done proves to his satisfaction the practicability of impelling stage coaches by steam) on good common roads, in tolerably level parts of the country, with¬ out horses, at a speed of eight or ten miles per hour." Much, of course, must remain to be done in improving their efficiency; yet Mr. Gurney states that he has kept up steadily the rate of twelve miles per hour; that " the extreme rate at which he has run is between twenty and thirty miles per hour." Mr. Hancock "rekons that, with his carriage, he could keep up a speed of ten miles per hour, without injury to the machine." Mr. Ogle states " that his experimental carriage went from London to Southampton, in some places, at a velocity of from thirty-two to thirty-five miles per hour." " That they have ascended a hill rising one in six, at sixteen and a half miles per hour, and four miles of the London road at the rate of twenty- four miles and a half per hour, loaded with people." "That his engine is capable of carrying three tons weight, in addition to its own." Mr. Summers adds, " that they have travelled in the carriage at the rate of fifteen miles per hour, with nineteen persons on the carriage, up a hill one in twelve." " That he has continued, for four hours and a half, to travel at the rate of thirty miles per hour." " That he has found no difficulty of travelling over the worst and most hilly roads." Mr. James Stone states that " thirty-six persons have been carried on one steam carriage." " That the engine drew five times its own weight nearly, at the rate of from five to six miles per hour, partly up an inclination." The several witnesses have estimated the probable saving of expense to the public, from the substitution of steam power for that of horses, at from one-half to two-thirds. Mr. Farey gives, as his opinion, "that steam 6 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 coaches will, very soon after their first establishment, be run for one-third of the cost of the present stage coaches." Perhaps one of the principal advantages resulting from the use of steam, will be, that it may be employed as cheaply at a quick as at a slow rate; "this is one of the advantages over horse labor, which becomes more and more expensive as the speed is increased. There is every reason to ex¬ pect that, in the end, the rate of travelling by steam will be much quicker than the utmost speed of travelling by horses; in short, the safety to travel¬ lers will become the limit to speed." In horse draught the opposite result takes place; " in all cases horses lose power of draught in a much greater proportion than they gain speed, and hence the work they do becomes more expensive as they go quicker." On this, and other points referred to in the report, the committee have great pleasure in drawing the attention of the House to the valuable evidences of Mr. Davies Gilbert. Without increase of cost, then, we shall obtain a power which will insure a rapidity of internal communication far beyond the utmost speed of horses in draught; and although the performance of these carriages may not have hitherto attained this point, when once it has been established, that at equal speed we can use steam more cheaply in draught than horses, we may fairly anticipate that every day's increased experience in the management of the engines, will induce greater skill, greater confidence, and greater speed. The cheapness of the conveyance will probably be for some time a secon¬ dary consideration. If at present it can be used as cheaply as horse power, the competition with the former modes of conveyance will first take place as to speed. When once the superiority of steam carriages shall have been fully established, competition will induce economy in the cost of working them. The evidence, however, of Mr. Macneil, showing the greater effi¬ ciency, with diminished expenditure of fuel, by locomotive engines on rail¬ ways, convinces the committee that experience will soon teach a better construction of the engines, and a less costly mode of generating the re¬ quisite supply of steam. Nor are the advantages of steam power confined to the greater velocity attained, or to its greater cheapness than horse draught. In the latter, dan¬ ger is increased, in as large a proportion as expense, by greater speed. In steam power, on the contrary, "there is no danger of being run away with, and that of being overturned is greatly diminished. It is difficult to con¬ trol four such horses as can draw a heavy carriage ten miles per hour, in case they are frightened or choose to run away; and for quick travelling they must be kept in that state of courage, that they are always inclined for running away, particularly down hills and at sharp turns of the road. In steam, however, there is little corresponding danger, being perfectly con¬ trollable, and capable of exerting its power in reverse in going down hills." Every witness examined has given the fullest and most satisfactory evidence of the perfect control which the conductor has over the movement of the carriage. With the slightest exertion it can be stopped or turned, under cir¬ cumstances where horses would be totally unmanageable. The committee have, throughout their examinations, been most anxious to ascertain whether the appréhension very commonly entertained, that an ex¬ tensive use of these carriages on roads would be the cause of frequent acci¬ dents and continued annoyance to the public, were well founded. The danger arising from the use of steam carriages, was stated to be two- [ Doc. No. 101. ] 7 fold; that to which passengers are exposed from explosion of the boiler, and the breaking of the machinery, and the effect produced-on horses by the noise and appearance of the engine. Steam has been applied as a power in draught in two ways: in the one, both passengers and engine are placed on the same carriage; in the other, the engine carriage is merely used to draw the carriage in which the load is conveyed. In either case, the probability of danger from explosion has been rendered infinitely small, from the judicious construction of boiler which has been adopted. These boilers Expose a very considerable surface to the fire, and steam is generated with the greatest rapidity. From their peculiar form, the requi¬ site supply of steam depends on its continued and rapid formation; no large and dangerous quantity can at any time be collected. Should the safety valve be stopped, and the supply of steam be kept up in a greater abundance than the engines require, explosion may take place, but the danger would be comparatively trifling, from the small quantity of steam which could act on anyone portion of the boilers. As an engine, invented by Mr. Trevi- thick, has not been as yet applied to carriages, the committee can do no more than draw the attention of the House to the ingenuity of its contri¬ vance. Should it in practice be found to answer his expectation, it will re¬ move entirely all danger from explosion. In each of the carriages described to the committee, the boilers have been proved to a considerably greater pressure than they can ever have to sustain. Mr. Farey considers that " the danger of explosion is less than the dan¬ ger attendant on the use of horses in draught; that the danger in these boilers is less than in those employed on the railway, although there even, the in¬ stances of explosion have been very rare." The danger arising to passen¬ gers from the breaking of the machinery, need scarcely be taken into con¬ sideration. It is a mere question of delay, and can scarcely exceed in fre¬ quency the casualtiès which may occur with horses. It has been frequently urged against these carriages, that wherever they »hall be introduced, they must effectually prevent all other travelling on the road, as no horse will bear quietly the noise and smoke of the engine. The committee believe that these statements are unfounded. Whatever noise may be complained of, arises from the present defective construction of the machinery, and will be corrected as the makers of such carriages gain greater experience. Admitting even that the present engines do work with some noise, the effect on horses has been greatly exaggerated. All the wit¬ nesses accustomed to travel in these carriages, even on the crowded roads adjacent to the Metropolis, have stated that horses are very seldom fright¬ ened in passing. Mr. Farey and Mr. Macneil have given even more favorable evidence in respect to the little annoyance they create. No smoke need arise from such engines. Coke is usually burned in loco¬ motive engines, on railways, to obviate this annoyance; and those slearn carriages which have been hitherto established also burn it. Their liability to be indicted as nuisances will sufficiently check their using any offensive fuel. There is no reason to fear that waste steam will cause much annoyance. In Mr. Hancock's engine it passes into the fire, and in other locomotive engines it is used in aid of the power, by creating a quicker draught and more rapid combustion of the fuel. In Mr. Trevithick's engine it will be returned into the boiler. 8 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 The committee not having received evidence that gas has been practical¬ ly employed in propelling carriages on common roads, have not considered it expedient to inquire as to the progress made by several very scientific persons who are engaged in making experiments on gasses, with the view of procuring a still cheaper and more efficient power than steam. The committee having satisfied themselves that steam has been successful¬ ly adopted as a substitute for horse power on roads, proceeded to examine whether tolls have been imposed on carriages thus propelled, so excessive as to require legislative interference, and also to consider the rate of tolls by which steam carriages should be brought to contribute, in fair proportion with other carriages, to the maintenance of the roads on which they may be used. They ¡lave annexed a list of those local acts in which tolls have been been placed on steam, or mechanically propelled carriages. Mr. Gurney has given the following specimens of the oppressive rates of tolls adopted in several of these acts: On the Liverpool and Prescot road, Mr. Gurney's carriage would be charged £2 8s. while a loaded stage coach would pay only 4s. On the Bathgate road the same carriage would bff charged £1 7s. Id., while a coach drawn by four horses would pay 5s. On the Ashburnham and Totness road Mr. Gurney would have to pay £2, while a coach drawn by four horses would be charged only 3s. On the Teign- mouth and Dawlish roads the proportion is 12s. to 2s. Such exorbitant tolls on steam carriages can only be justified on the fol¬ lowing grounds: First, because the number of passengers conveyed on, or by, a steam car¬ riage will be so great as to diminish (at least the extent of the difference of the rate of toll) the total number of carriages used on the road; or, secondly, because steam carriages induce additional expense in the repairs of the road. The committee see no reason to suppose that, for the present, the substi¬ tution of steam carriages, conveying a greater number of persons than com¬ mon coaches, will take place to any very material extent; and, as to the se¬ cond cause of increased charge, the trustees, in framing their tolls, have pro¬ bably not minutely calculated the amount of injury to roads likely to arise from them. The committee are of opinion that the only ground on which a fair claim to toll can be made on any public road, is to raise a fund which, with the strictest economy, shall be just sufficient, first, to repay the expense of its original formation; secondly, to maintain it in good and sufficient repair. Although the committee anticipate that the time is not far distant when, in framing a scheme of toll for steam carriages, their general adoption, and the great number of passengers which will be conveyed on a small num¬ ber of vehicles, will render it necessary not only to consider the amount of injury actually done to the road, but also the amount of debt which may have been incurred for its formation or maintenance; yet at present they feel justified by the limited number of such carriages, and by the great diffi¬ culties they will have to encounter, in recommending to the House, that, in adopting a system of toll, the proportion of " wear and tear" of roads by steam, as compared with other carriages, should alone be taken into conside¬ ration. Unless an experiment were instituted on two roads, the one reserved solely for the use of steam coaches, the other for carriages drawn by horses, for the purpose of ascertaining accurately the relative wear of each, it would [ Doc. No. 101. 3 9 be quite impossible to fix with certainty the proportion of tolls to which, on the same road, each class of vehicles should be liable. To approximate, however, as nearly as possible to the standard of relative wear, the commit¬ tee have compared the weights of steam carriages with those of loaded van- and stage coaches. They have tried to ascertain the causes of the wear of roads; also the proportion of injury done by the feet of horses and the wheels of coaches; how far that injury is increased by increased velocity, and also in what degree the wear of roads by loaded carriag s njay be de¬ creased by any particular form of wheel. The committee would direct the attention of the House especially to the evidence of Mr. Macneil, whose observations on this branch of the subject, being founded on a long course of very accurate experiment, are peculiarly interesting and useful. He estimates that the feet of horses drawing a fast coach, are more injurious to the road than the wheels, in the proportion of three to one, nearly; that this proportion will increase with the velocity; that by increasing the breadth of the tires of the wheels, the injury done to roads ny great weights may be counteracted. He considers that, on a good road, one ton may be safely carried on each inch of width of lire of the wheels. Mr M'Adam and Mr. Telford have given corresponding evidence as to the greater wear caused by horses' feet than by wheels of carriages. Each of the above witnesses agrees, that, adding the weight of the horses to that of the coach, and comparing to the injury clone to a road by a stear. : carriage of a weight equal to that of the coach and horses (the wheels being of a proper width of tire), the deterioration of the road will be much less by the steam carriage than by the coach and horses. As to the injury to roads which is anticipated from the "slipping" of the wheels, it may safely be left to the proprietors to correct: the action of the wheel slipping involves a waste of power and an useless expenditure of fuel, which, for their own sakes, they will avoid. Apprehension has also been entertained that, although the peculiar action of the wheels may not be injurious, yet that, from the great power which may be applied if the steam were worked at very high pressure, or if the size of the engine were increased, greater weight might be carried than the strength of the road could bear. Undoubtedly, in propefrtion to the advance of the science, will be the in¬ crease of weight drawn by an engine with a given expenditure of fuel; but there are many practical difficulties to be surmounted before the weight so drawn can reach the point when it could be destructive of roads. There are no theoreticalreasonsagainst the extension ofthesizeof the engines. Thedif- ficulties, according to Mr. Gurney, are of a practical nature, and only in the "difficult}'' of management of a large engine." In proportion as we aug- mentthe powerof theengines, we must increase theirstrength, and consequent¬ ly their weight; the greater weight will be a material diminution of their effi¬ ciency. To a certain extent the power may be increased in a greater ratio than the weight, but, with our limited knowledge of the application of steam, and with the present formation of the public roads, the point will be very soon attained, when the advantage of increased power will be counterbalanc¬ ed by the difficulties attendant on the increased weight of the engines. The weight of the steam carriages at present in use, varies from 53 to 80 cwt. ; but it must be recollected that they are mere models; they were made with attention to strength only, to bear the uncertain strain to which they 2 10 [ Doc. No. 101. ] would be exposed in the course of experiments, and a very considerable diminution of weight may be anticipated. The weight drawn, at the rate of ten miles per hour, By Mr. Gurney's engine, has not, on any extent of road, exceded the weight of the drawing carriage; nor is it likely, with the difficulties to be encountered on the pre¬ sent lines of road, from their quality and the numerous ascents, that the weight drawn will be in excess of the strength of the roads. The immense quantity of spare power required to surmount the different degrees of resist¬ ance likel^ to occur, would render the engine too unmanageable. This will appear evident from the force of traction required to draw a wagon over the Holyhead and Shrewsbury road, which varied from 40 to upwards of 300 lbs. In considering the effect on roads, we must not overlook one peculiarity in which they have a great advantage over other carriages. In coaches drawn by horses, the power being without the machine to be removed, it becomes an object of the greatest importance to give as much effect as pos¬ sible to the power, by diminishing the resistance arising from the friction of the wheels upon the surface of the road. For this purpose, the proprie¬ tors of coaches and wagons have adopted every possible contrivance, so to ■ educe the tires of their wheels, that a very small portion of them may press un the road; in some coaches they are made circular in their cross section, •o that the entire weight of the carriage presses on a mere point; should the materials be soft, such wheels cut their way into the road like a sharp instru¬ ment. The owners of wagons too have adopted a similar plan. Mr. Mac- neil states that the actual bearing part of the tire of apparently broad-wheel wagons, is reduced to three inches by the contrivance of one band of the tire projecting beyond the others. With steam, on the contrary, a certain amount of adhesion to the roads js required to give effect to the action of the machinery, or the wheels would slip round and make no progress. It appears of little importance therefore, so far as relates to the engine, whether the requisite amount of friction be spread over a broad surface of tire, or be concentrated to a small point; but as the wheels, by being too narrow, would have a tendency to bury them¬ selves in every soft or newly made road, and thus raise a perpetual resistance to their own progress, it actually becomes an advantage to adopt that form which is least injurious to the road. The proprietors, who have been ex¬ amined on this point, seem to be quite indifferentes to the breadth of tire they may be required to use. These considerations have convinced the committee, that the tolls enforc¬ ed on steam carriages have, in general, far exceeded the rate which their in- juriousness to roads, in comparison with other carriages, would warrant; they have found, however, considerable difficulty in framing a scale of tolls ap¬ plicable to all roads, in lieu of those authorized by several local acts. With this view, they have carefully examined the various modes of im¬ posing toll either suggested by the witnesses, or already adopted. They are as follows: 1. To place a toll proportioned to the weight of the carriage and load; 2. On the number of passengers; 3. On the horse-power of the engine; 4. On the number of wheels; 5. An unvarying toll. Each of these plans seems liable to serious objections, which the commit¬ tee beg to submit to the House. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 11 No plan of toll has been more frequent]} recommended than that of a charge in proportion to the weight of the engine and load. As this is the most plausible, and (if it could be levied without other disadvantages) would probably be the fairest standard, the committee have considered it right to state, at some length, their reasons for not recommending its adoption. If weight be taken as the standard, the toll must be a fixed charge, either upon the weight of the engine and carriage, without reference to the load; or upon an estimated average of the load carried; or a fluctuating charge, according to the weight, at the several periods of a journey. The first would be at least free from the uncertainty of the other two, and therefore would be preferable; but what scale of charge per cwt. could the committee recommend as applicable to all roads? Their toll should vary ac¬ cording to every different rate of charge on carriages; besides, it would ap¬ pear to the trustees very unjust to exclude the consideration of that which would be deemed the most material cause of the wear of their roads, viz: the load. A fluctuating charge on weight would be most injurious to a carriage, which will mainly depend for success on its speed; constant altercations would take place between the toll collectors and proprietors; a minute calcu¬ lation would be required at every turnpike gate; in fact, unless an accountant were placed at each, the committee cannot conceive how the proportions could be satisfactorily arranged, nor would there be any desire, on the part of the toll collector, to shorten the delay occasioned by these interruptions. Mr. Gurney has delivered in a scale of tolls graduated according to weight and width of tire of the wheel. As this has been drawn up by a person interested in the success of steam carriages, it might have been ex¬ pected to be more favorable to them. The committee, however, have not adopted it, because of the difficulties and interruptions which a fluctuating rate of toll would induce; besides, this scale purports to be intended for a road, where 3d. is charged for a horse drawing, and 1 d. for a horse not drawing; the scale would be inapplicable therefore when the charge was 2d. and la!., 3a!. and 1 \d., 4d. and Id., 4d. and 1 \d., 8d. and so on. Again, what standard of weight, in relation to horse coaches, could be adopted? The average weight of loaded coaches differs very much on different roads. It has been suggested, that a loaded coach, including the weight of four horses, would weigh on an average four tons; and that if 3d. per horse were ehargeable to the coach, 6c!. per ton should be placed on a steam carriage; this would be unjust, as vans, which frequently weigh upwards of six tons, would only pay 2s., and a steam carriage would pay 3s. Even if the inju¬ ry done to the road by each'were equal, this would be an unfair toll; but it will appear more evidently unjust if the greater proportionate injury done by the feet of horses drawing, than by the propelling wheels, be taken into consideration. The object of every steam coach proprietor will be to attain the greatest possible lightness of machinery and engine; because thereby he renders his power more efficient for the draught of the remunerating load. To place the toll on the weight of the engine would tend to induce him to decrease the strength of his boiler and machinery to an extent which might be dan¬ gerous to the passengers, and very detrimental to the success of steam travel¬ ling, as the public will easily be led to believe, that the accidents really oc¬ curring from injudicious legislation, were inseparable from the adoption of this power as an agent in propelling carriages. 12 [ Doc: No. 101. ] The only fair plea for charging tolls on such carriages, in proportion to their weight, is to prevent a load being propelled or carried which would permanently injure the road; within this limit it would be as injudicious to interfere with their progressive fefficiency, (which can only result from im¬ provements of the machinery and the system of generating and applying steam) as it would be to lax carriages drawn by large and well-bred horses, more heavily than such as were drawn by horses in worse condition and of smaller size and power. Tiie roads at present have to sustain wagons, weighing, at times, with their horses, nearly ten tons; it is in evidence, that the breadth of wheels required by various acts of Parliament, is so easily evaded, that it affords no protection to the road. There appears to the committee no fair reason to sup¬ pose that steam carriages, approaching even to this weight, will be used on any turnpike road, at least for a very considerable period, during which' the increase of weight will be gradual, and will give warning to thp legisla¬ ture when it should interfere. To charge a toll according to the number of passengers conveyed, is scarce¬ ly less objectionable. If a fluctuating toll be intended, it would be as inad¬ missible as to propose a similar mode of charging for fast coaches, and would be open to all the cavil and interruptions to which a fluctuating toll on weight would be liable. If the toll were fixed according to the number of passen¬ gers the carriage were capable of conveying, it would imply the necessity of a license limiting the number of passengers, and cramping the progress of improvement of a machine, the capabilities of which can only be ascertain¬ ed slowly and by continued experiment. It must be also recollected that these carriages will probably have to travel for a long period without passengers, until by their punctuality and safety they shall have induced the public to venture in them. Nor is this proba¬ bility weakened by the immense number of passengers who commenced using the locomotive carriages oti the Manchester and Liverpool railway immediately after their introduction: these engines were established among a population accustomed to machinery and steam, and therefore not enter¬ taining the same apprehensions of its danger which will require to be sur¬ mounted elsewhere. The trustees of the Liverpool and Prescot road have already obtained the sanction of the legislature to charge the monstrous toll of Is. 6d. per << horse-power," as if it were a national object to prevent the possibility of such engines being used. Besides, they have supplied no standard of their own conception of horse-power. Engineers have differed very much in their estimates of this power; there is not, therefore, much probability that Ihe opposite interests of a steam coach proprietor and toll collector would lead to any agreement as to the meaning of the term. But suppose the le¬ gislature were to settle this point, and to arrange that a certain length of stroke and diameter of cylinder should represent a certain power, we still fail to ascertain that which alone it is essential to know, viz. the actual effi¬ ciency of the engine. Can we regulate the density of steam at which an engine of a given s:ze should be worked? To be effectual, it would be also necessary to ascertain the quantity of water consumed, and even this check would be inadequate with an engine on Mr. Trevithick's principle. If the toll be left as at present on " horse power," it would be the obvious interest of the proprietor to work with the smallest nominal power, but to increase as much as possible the force of his steam, thereby increasing the probabili¬ ty of explosion. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 13 Some trustees have placed the toll upon the number of wheels. The committee would object to this mode of charge, if only, because it interferes between the rival modes of steam travelling, and gives a bounty in favor of that in which the engine is placed on the same carriage with the passengers. The opposite plan of separating the engine from the carriage is that which probably the public will prefer, until the safety of the mode of conveyance shall have been fully ascertained. There is still a more serious objection to this mode of charge: it tends to discourage the use of separate carriages; although it must be evident that, if a certain weight be carried, it will be much less injurious to the road when divided over eight Wheels, than when carried on four only. On this point, the committee must again refer to Mr. Macneil's evidence. They cannot, therefore, recommend the House to adopt a scale of toll which shall increase in inverse proportion to the injury done to the road. It will be seen in Mr. M'Adam's evidence, that the toll on steam coaches imposed by the Metro- • politan roads act, is liable to,this objection. Some of the local acts have placed an unvarying toll on steam carriages! This, if moderate, would be unobjectionable; but the committee could not propose any sum which would adapt itself to the necessary varieties of ex¬ pense in keeping up different roads, by which the tolls on common carriages have been regulated. A fixed toll has, too, this disadvantage: that light ex¬ perimental carriages, or suchas are built solely for speed, would be liable to the same toll as steam carriages heavily laden. The committee feel that, however strong their conviction may be of the comparatively small injury which properly constructed .-team carriages will do to the roads, yet this conviction is founded more on theory, and perhaps what may be considered as interested evidence, than practical experience; they would therefore recommend that the House should not make, at pre¬ sent, any permanent regulations in favor of steam. The experience which will be gained in a very few years, will enable the legislature to form a more correct judgment of the effect of steam carriages on roads, than can be now made. They therefore recommend that the lolls imposed on steam carriages by local acts, where they shall be unfavorable to steam, shall be suspended during three years; and that, in lieu thereof, the trustees shall be permitted to charge toll according to the'rate to which the committee have agreed. The House will have perceived, in the former part of this report, that there are two modes of applying steam in lieu of horses in draught: one, where the engine and passengers are on the same carriage; the other, where the engine is placed on separate wheels, and is merely used to propel or draw the carriage. Although the difference of weight may be in favor of the former mode, yet, as on the latter it is divided over eight wheels instead of four, its small excess cannot justify a larger toll being imposed, as it will be found much less injurious to the roads. The committee therefor e recom¬ mend that, in charging toll, the engine carriage and carriage drawn shall be considered but as one. As it is the opinion of all the engineers examined, that the use of nar¬ row wheels has been the great cause of the wear of roads, and that cylindri¬ cal wheels, of a certain width of tire, are not only the least injurious, but that, in some states of the road, they may be even beneficial, the committee recommend that the wheels of the engine carriage should be required to be cylindrical, and of not less than inches width of tire. No proprietor 14 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 of steam carriages has expressed the slightest fear of any inconvenience or loss from the use of such wheels. Beyond this, the committee would not recommend interference with the breadth of tire, or form of wheels: it should be left to the proprietors freely to select the breadth of tire they shall find most convenient in proportion to the weight carried. The committee have divided steam carriages (intended for passengers) in¬ to two classes, to be subject to different rates of toll. The first, where the carriage is not plying for hire, or where, if plying for hire, it shall not be calculated for, or carry at any time, more than six passengers. The original cost of such machines, and the expense of working tjjem, will sufficiently protect the roads from any great number of merely experimental carriages; and for the same reason they will not be of a weight or size likely to be in¬ jurious. A steam carriagejonly calculated to convey six passengers, will be solely used where great speed is required, and will be so light as to cause . very little wear of the road, probably much less than many carriages drawn by the number of horses which the committee recommend as the standard of charge for this class. The toll, therefore, proposed to be placed on this class of steam carriages is that, which (on the several roads where they may be used) is charged on a carriage drawn by two horses. In the second class, they have placed all other steam carriages, except those travelling at slow rates, for goods only: carriages of this class should pay the same toll as may be charged on a coach drawn by four horses. This may at first appear unjust from the supposed power of steam to draw almost un¬ limited weight. The committee have already enumerated the difficulties hitherto encountered in attempting to propel very heavy loads on turnpike roads. They are such as to discourage the expectation, that, within any short period of time, the system will have been so perfected as to give rise to inconvenience from this source: should any hereafter be found, it will then be sufficient to remedy the defect. Until a due proportion of the parts of the machinery shall have been ascertained, the makers of these carriages will vary but cautiously from the models at present in use: their object will be, for some time, the perfecting of them, rather than the uncertain experi¬ ment of increasing their size. The committee do not anticipate that, for a considerable period, steam will be used as a propelling power on common roads for heavy wagons. It appears to have been the general opinion of the witnesses, that, in proportion as the velocity of travelling by steam on common roads is diminished, the advantages of steam over horse power are lost. The efficiency of horses in draught is rapidly diminished as their speed is increased; while, on the eontrary, the weight which could be carried or propelled at any great ve» locity, by steam, could not be more cheaply conveyed were the speed de¬ creased to that of the slowest wagon. As speed, therefore, is the cause of greatly increased expense where horses are used, while with steam it is comparatively unimportant, it is probable that the latter will be chiefly resorted to when rapidity of conveyance is re¬ quired. Mr. Gurney considers, that, under four miles per hour, horses can be used in draught more economically than steam. -Should it, however, be deemed profitable to convey heavy goods by steam carriages, the committee recommend that there should be as little interference as possible with the number of carts employed; as the effect on the surface of roads would be infinitely more injurious if heavy loads were placed on a single cart, than if the same weight were d:t ided over several. The committee recom- [ Doc. No. 101. 1 15 mend, that where carriages, containing heavy goods alone, are propelled by steam, the weight of the load should be charged, without reference to the number of carts on which it may be carried. As a horse is able to draw from 20 to 40 cwt. on common roads, they propose that each 20 cwt. of load conveyed in, or drawn by, a steam carriage, should be chargeable at the same rate of toll as one horse drawing a cart. A charge on weight is not so objectionable where goods are conveyed at a slow rate, as when speed is alone required. In conclusion, the committee submit the following summary of the evi¬ dence, given by the several witnesses, as to the progress made in the appli¬ cation of steam to the purposes of draught on common roads. Sufficient evidence has been adduced to convince your committee— 1. That carriages can be propelled by steam on common roads at an ave¬ rage rate of ten miles per hour. 2. That at this rate they have conveyed upwards of fourteen passengers. 3. That their weight, including engine, fuel, water and attendants, may be under three tons. 4. That they can ascend and decend hills of considerable inclination with facility and safety. 5. That they are perfectly safe for passengers. 6. That they are not (or need not be, if properly constructed) nuisances to the public. 7. That they will become a speedier and cheaper mode of conveyance than carriages drawn by horses. 8. That as they admit of greater breadth of tire than other carriages, and as the roads are not acted on so injuriously as by the feet of horses in common draught, such carriages will cause less wear of roads than coaches drawn by horses. 9. That rates of toll have been imposed on steam carriages, which would prohibit their being used on several lines of road, were such charges permitted to remain unaltered. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mercurii, 3° die Jlugusti, 1831. Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney called in, and examined. Are you the proprietor of a steam carriage used on public roads? Not the proprietor; I am the patentee. On what roads have you commenced running such carriages? I have commenced on several roads. The first road I commenced was Edgeware, then Stanmore; I ran there for a short time only; principally experimental¬ ly; then to Barnet, to Edgeware, to Finchley, and other places. I also ran a carriage on my own account to Bath and back; that was onlyone journey; 16 £ Doc. No. 101. ] an experimental journey. Since that they have been running as publie stages, principally between Gloucester and Cheltenham. For what period? Since February last. They were stopped about three weeks, in consequence of an accident to one of the axle-trees; they were to begin again about this time. Have you been yourself on these carriages while they have been running? Yes; in the first instance, I almost always accompanied the carriage. State in detail the progress which yon have made in bringing these car¬ riages to their present improved state? I must beg to have reference to the drawings. [ The witness produced the drawings, Nos. 1,2,3, 4, 5, and 6.] This first drawing, No. 1, was the first experiment I made connected with the subject, in which I conceived I had removed the difficulty of driving steam carriages on common roads, by inventing a light and powerful boiler, of which this is a representation. The application of that boiler vvill be seen in No. 2. The boiler itself is not represented on the carriage in this drawing, but simply the engine, and the modes of propelling the carriage. This was in the year 1825. It was then a very prevalent opinion that the bite or friction of the power to the ground was not sufficient to propel the car¬ riage along a common road, particularly up hill; it was thought that the wheel would turn round, and the carriage not proceed. With that view, the apparatus shown in this figure, No. 2, which I call feet or propellers, were proposed to be used; the mode of action I presume will be seen from the drawing. I soon found by experience, in numerous experiments not con¬ nected with the drawing, that the propellers were rarely or never wanted; and I then applied the power immediately to the two hind wheels, through a crank, in the common mode of a steamboat, the propellers being also fixed, but travelling slower than the wheels, were brought into action if the wheels slipped, which it was thought would be the casein difficult situations. This carriage went up Highgate hill in 1826, and to Edgeware, also to Stanmore, and went up Stanmore hill, and Brockley hill, near Stanmore, and against all those hills the wheels never turned, and the legs never came into action. This is No. 3. After these experiments, the legs or propellers were entire¬ ly removed, and from further experiment it was found, by a peculiar appli¬ cation of the steam, (namely, by "wire drawing,") that the bite of one of the hind wheels was sufficient for all common purposes. If the steam was let on suddenly, the wheel would turn round, and the carriage not go for¬ ward; but when wire-drawn, one wheel was found sufficient. By this ar¬ rangement, also, the carriage was guided more accurately and more easily. The second wheel was applied by uniting it with the crank at any time, if one was found insufficient. In general, were the wheels connected together, or had they an independ¬ ent motion? Always one was attached to the axle; they had no independ¬ ent motion; this will be seen by reference to No. 5 on the arm or carrier of the wheel (which is a part of the axle,) and can be attached to the wheel at pleasure by a bolt, making the wheel also in that case part of the axle. This carriage, 1 should observe, ran to Barnet, snd went up all the hills to Bar- net, in 1827, with one wheel only attached to the axle, and was run for about eighteen months experimentally in the neighborhood of London. F rom these experiments showing that one wheel was sufficient to propel the car¬ riage, and the carriage being at the same time reduced two thirds in weight, it was thought desirable to draw another carriage, instead of to carry on the same; that will be seen in No. 5. This carriage went to Bath, and over all £ Doc. No. 101. ] 1? the hills between Cranford bridge and Bath, and returned with only one wheel attached to the axle; the other carrier, by means of attachment, having broken in the first onset, and not having been repaired until after its return; the carriage was also injured slightly at Melksham, in consequence of a riot there. We waited about two days at Bath to get this injury repaired-, and returned from Melksham to Cranford bridge in ten hours, a distance of eighty-four miles, including stoppages. I have come now almost to the practical application of it. This is a drawing of the carriages we are now now building (No. 6.) Have you made any alteration in the formation of the boilers since 1825? We have altered and changed in the mechanism only; the principle has been invariably adhered to; the present carriage is deprived of its chimney, and a variety of other disagreeables about the carriage. Has your principle, with respect to all, remained the same? Precisely the same. How far have you improved the formation of your working carriage as to weight? The weight was a principal objection to the practical application of the carriage. The first carriage of a given power weighed four tons; this vvas objectionable on account of its weight, which was severely felt in con¬ sequence of its effect on the roads. I thought it would injure the roads, which injury would produce a toll that would perhaps injure the economy of it: No. 3, weighed four tons; No. 4, weighed three tons, with the same power; No. 5, two tons, with the same power; the present carriages build¬ ing will not weigh more than 35 cwt. with the same power. What does the carriage which runs between Gloucester and Cheltenham weigh? By a letter from the magistrate, now produced, it is stated to weigh nearly three tons; it ought to weigh only 45 cwt.; if it weighs three tons, there is extra weight, of which 1 know nothing. This which I produce a sketch of, marked No. 6, weighs 35 cwt. and it has the same power. Those carriages at Gloucester were built principally under the superintendence of another person. When you state the weight of 35 cwt. you mean the weight of the tra¬ velling carriage alone, without the weight of the passengers, or the weight of fuel or water? Yes, just so; I think it is possible to reduce the weight considerably as improvements go on. I have a carriage now building which I do not expect will weigh above five cwt., which I expected to do the work of about one horse, and carry two or three people; speed is a particu¬ lar object, and it is not intended to carry any thing more than light parcels. Into what stages would you divide your journeys most conveniently? I think about seven miles. What weight of fuel and water would you lay in for such a stage? The fuel and water will be in proportion to the size and power of the carriage. For a machine, weighing 35 cwt. marked by you No. 6, what weight of fuel and water would you require? Three bushels and a half of coke is the quantity we take to supply this distance, and the first charge two bushels; the first charge always remaining, it decreases of course down to the first charge, and, taking the mean, it will be 3§. The weight of water at present I think is about 10 gallons a mile which is consumed, that would be 70 gallons, a gallon weighing about 10 lbs. malung 700 lbs. ; the mean of this will give the quantity. If the roads are good it does not take so much, we can do with almost half the quantity; if the roàds are bad we must take the whole quantitv. and the mean will be 350 lbs, 3 18 [ Poc. No. 101. ] Will you state the progressive alterations you have made in the diameter of your wheel, and the breadth of the tire? The diameter of the wheel has generally been the same, about five feet. What difference is there between the fore and hind wheels? About a foot in diameter difference; about the proportion of an ordinary carriage. The power is attached to the hind wheels? To the hind wheels only. Do the wheels follow in the same track? That is a matter of option. The committee understand that they do not in that which travels between Cheltenham and Gloucester? Perhaps that is the case there; it is a matter of convenience in some experiments. I have built them with three wheels only, one wheel in front, and in some, as in No. 3, with six wheels; my present carriage has only four. Do the hind wheels of your present carriage follow in the same track with the fore wheels? Yes; those carriages now building will do so; the hind wheels will be nearer to each other than in many others. What diameter do you propose to make the propelling wheels of your new carriage? I propose to have them about five feet. I would observe, that bv taking a wheel of five feet diameter off the axle, and putting on one of two feet six, the engine would be multiplied double in its power, and lose of course one half in speed. In some cases it may be desirable to do so if the carriages are used for general purposes; for speed or dragging of heavy weights alternately, larger or smaller wheels may be put to meet circumstances as they occur. From the experiments you have made, with a view to proportion the di¬ ameter of the wheels with the weight to bedrawn and the velocity required, what diameter of propelling wheel do you think will be generally used? Five feet; the piston of the engine should not travel more than two miles and a half per hour; therefore we may multiply from this rate to any speed we please. What is the bieadth of the tire of your present wheel? None less than two inches; but in late experiments we found a wide tire more desirable lhan a narrow one, and we have increased it to about three inches and a half in width; we .found that there is no increase of power necessary with a wiffe wheel, but I think, on the contrary, rather less. We have not been able to decide positively the irue variation in power, but the difference is so slight, that it is not perceptible. What is the ordinary width of the tire of wheels of coaches? I think about two inches; in a private carriage rather under two, and in stage coaches over two inches. Of how many horse power is your ordinary travelling engine? Twelve nominal steam engine horse-power; to work eight hours it takes the com¬ mon stage coach 32 horses; an engine propelling the same weight for eight hours should be considered a 32 horse power, according to the rule laid down by engineers, but this is not true as to locomotive engines. Taking your latest improvement, to what number of draught horses would it fee equivalent? I think about 10 cwt. will do the work of a horse on the road; 35 cwt. will be about 3i horses' work always. You mean that it will displace about three horses and a half at a time ou the road? Yes, in each stage it will displace 3J or 4 horses, and about 30 horses in the eight hours. Is that in practice, or in idea? Practice. Is the chief weight, supported on springs? The whole is on springs. £ Doc. No. 101. J 19 What is the weight of an ordinary stage-coach? About 24 cwt. ; I think from 18 to 24. . How many persons will that take? I think about 18. What would be the weight of your engine carriage sufficiently powerful to draw a carriage containing 18 persons? The weight of the propelling carriage would be about the weight of four horses; the weight of the car¬ riage drawn would be precisely that of a carriage drawn by horses, and I find the weight of a horse to average about 10 cwt. ; therefore, taking four horses at 10 cwt the four horses would be two tons, which is somewhere about the weight of my carriage; to do the same work, some horse3 weigh as much as 16 cwt. some considerably less than lOcwt. Have you examined the effect on the roads of the propelling wheels of your carriage? As far as I am enabled to judge, I should say that they did no more injury than any other carriage of the same weight; I mean the carriage itself, weight for weight. I have taken the loss of iron from the tires of the wheels, and compared it with that of the loss from other carriages running the same number of miles, and I found the loss the same nearly. Do you find that the wheel never slides in the turn? If it does, it is either ' imperfect or the fault of the engineer; if the steam is wire-drawn (using the technical term) it never does so; if the steam is laid on suddenly on the en¬ gines, it acts like a percussion, and affects the wheels as if struck with a hammer. The carriage, of course, would not be propelled in such ease. Practically, as far as you have seen in the operations of these carriages, does the wheel slideia that way frequently? It may sometimes at starting for an instant, but never on the road unless it is over-weighted; I mean, if it has an over-weight attached to it. Is there much smoke created by your carriage ? There is no smoke unless any smoky matter gets accidentally into the fire, the fuel being coke; of course there will be smoke if there are coals. Are you frequently obliged to let off steam? Yes, but not openly; the steam is allowed to escape from the safety-valve into a chamber peculiarly constructed, which prevents any nuisance from it. There is no annoyance either from smoke or steam? There is no annoy- ' ance either from smoke or steam, when the engine is perfect. Have you found that horses are more liable to be frightened by passing your carriages, than passing other carriages? As far as my own observation goes, I shuuld say about the same. I have travelled with a carriage, I think, five years, more or less, every week. I have been very frequently in the public streets of London with the steam carriage, and the roads round Lon¬ don, and also in the private and public roads in the country; I have cer¬ tainly seen horses shy often, but never saw ahorse make a dead stand. Is there a very peculiar noise attending the motion of your engine car¬ riage? The noise of wire-drawing, &c. is at the will of the engineer; if the carriage should make a noise, he has the means of stopping the noise; but there ought not to be any disagreeable noise. ■ Must not the noise proceed from the imperfection of the works? Yes, and that only. Do you attribute the startling of horses to the peculiar noise of the en¬ gine, or to its unusual appearance? I think it must be from its unusual appear¬ ance. It appears from an observation on the carriages at Cheltenham, made in this committee, to have been more troublesome than any where else. Those carriages were made with curtains, to inclose persons who might ride [ Doc. No. 101. ] in them, and the carriage altogether rather more outre in its appearance; from the flapping of those curtains, or some circumstances of that kind, the horses have been startled, or accidents have occurred there. Are yon aware that there is an imperfection in the carriage at Cheltenham, which is stated to occasion noise? I have not seen much of these carriages; I was never at Cheltenham but twice or thrice, and then but for a short time. What have you found to be the effect of the wheels on a very rough road full of ruts? If you start the carriage from a rut, it takes more power; but when the carriage is in motion, the momentum takes it over all the inequali¬ ties with the usual force. Do you find that when the propelling wheel gets into a rut, the first power it exerts is in sliding? Frequently; and sometimes it will be neces¬ sary to attach the two wheels, for one wheel will not be sufficient to get it out of that difficulty. The engineer, in such case, attaches a second wheel by the bolt, and I have never known'a situation yet, in which a carriage with both wheels attached will not get out. I have seen it in a. clay pit eight inches deep propel itself through, having sunk through the upper surface of gravel in a yard. When you attach the second wheel, is the increased power owing to the more favorable situation of the cranks? The power of the engine remains the same, but the application of it is doubled by friction. Suppose that both wheels were in the rut? 1 have seen both wheels in a rut. In the case I have just spoken of they were both in a rut; in a differ¬ ent state of weather, the effect, hold or bite on the wheels is very different; if the state of the road is between half wet and half dry, it is more apt to slide; and, in some instances, with a heavy weight attached, we are obliged to go with both wheels locked, when the same weight would have been taken by one wheel only in very wet or dry weather. Is it only in starting that that difficulty occurs? Only in starting on a level or slight incline; but up hills we have sometimes been obliged to attach both wheels;1 the bite only from the one wheel being not sufficient to pro¬ pel a load behind it. What is the operation of the propelling wheel when it meets with the obstruction of a large stone on the road? If the difficulty is so great that the carriage cannot advance, it slips on the stone; but I have blocked up the wheels of the carriage with square pieces of wood four inches in diameter, and started it when so blocked up. in proportion to the size of such obstruction there is liability in the crank to break? Certainly; but the cause which oceasio-ns a crank to break is one which cannot be explained on common principles: it frequently happens, as- in steam-boats, and very often in this carriage, when the power applied to it is not equal to its being broken, the accident occurs, and must be referred to a jar or percussion; the axles are unusually large in consequence. What is the throw of the crank? Half the diameter of the stroke of the engine; eight inches and a half to nine inches. With a wheel of five feet diameter what is the throw of your crank? About nine inches. What is the length of the stroke of your cylinder? I think 16 to IS inch¬ es; the crank is half that. I may state here, that I have had accidents of breaking the crank two or three times during my experiments; thelast crank was broken in consequence of going thrpugh some rough stones laid unusu¬ ally thick; J understand as much as IS inch.es deep. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 21 What do you anticipate will be the most frequent accident which will hap¬ pen to your drawing machines? I should say the derangement of the pumps s most likely to occur, in consequence of which the carriage would merely îtop. During the experiments you have been making, have you frequently had your tubes burst? Very oiten. Do you conceive you have remedied the probability, of such occurrence? Ves; the first tubes we used were iron gas tubes, which were not welded, out simply " butted" together. The consequence was, that whenever any- great pressure came upon them the seam opened; but from practice and ex¬ perience we found it necessary to wrap over, or over lap the edges, and weld them from end4o end; and now we are not subject to those accidents. What is the diameter of the tubes of your boiler? We make th m from isalf an inch to two inches; the best size, 1 think, is an inch diameter. To what pressure per square inch do you prove them? To about S00 lbs. ; [-think they would bear 2,000 lbs. What is the greatest pressure they would bear? It is impossible to say. I have never been able to burst one when well made, when lapped and welded. - - What is the average pressure on the boiler per square inch, in your ordi¬ nary rate of travelling? About 70 lbs. And you have tried the tubes to 800? Yes; we sometimes may work up to 100 lbs. and 120 lbs.; but that is a case of great emergency. What is the greatest probable pressure it will be exposed to? Nevermore than 130 lbs. ; the safety valve blows at 70 lbs. to the inch; it is generally on the lift -on a level hard road. I do not think that the pressure is more than 20 lbs. to an inch on-the piston. t Is it likely that persons would ordinarily work with the safety valve on the'lift? Yes; or nearly so, sometimes. Is there not a waste of fuel when you work on the lift? It will be in pro¬ portion to the escape of steam from the safety-valve; the pressure on the boiler is 70 lbs.; on the engine frequently it does not exceed 20 lbs. to an inch; and when I was asked the pressure I worked at, I supposed the ques¬ tion referred to the pressure on the piston collectively. What is the thickness of your tubes? The thickness of the iron is about the eighth of an inch. What-is the thickness of your working cylinder? It is about three quar¬ ters of an inch; it has also ribs round it. Of what metal is your working cylinder formed? Cast-iron; we have worked gun metal, but cast-iron appears to be best. Have you found that there is great facility in guiding those carriages? I have always found the most perfect command in guiding them. Supposing you were going at your ordinary rate of eight miles an hour, could you stop immediately, or would the carriage run for any distance? In case of emergency, we might instantly throw the steam on the reverse side of the pistons, and stop within a few yards. The stop of the carriage is singular; it would be supposed that the momentum would carry it far for¬ ward, but it is not so; the steam brings it up gradually and safely, though rather suddenly. Supposing you were going at the rate of eight miles an hour, can you say at what number of yards it would be.possible to stop? I would say within six or seven yards. 22 [ Doc. No. 101. ] How would you manage on a declivity? On a declivity we are well stored" with apparatus; we have three different modes of dragging the carriage. You have stated that you found no difficulty in guiding the drawing carriage,- pr any difficulty in guiding the carriage which is drawn? Not the least; it is peculiarly connected, so that the fore wheels of the carriage drawn fol¬ low the tracks oi the hind-wheels of the steam carriage drawing, although making a circle of 15 feet diameter, which is a singular property. In what circle do you think you could turn both carriages? In a circle of 10 feet, the inner diameter. Supposing you were going at the rate of eight miles an hour, in what inner circle do you suppose you could turn? I should be very sorry to attempt to turn within a small circle. I think I might say, probably it might safely be done in one of 100 feet diameter. In the further progress of the improvement of this description of carriage, do you suppose that greater weight will be drawn, by adding to the number of carriages; or by increasing the size of the one carriage drawn? The carriage drawn with its load, should never exceed three tons, and the car¬ riage to draw it should never exceed the weight I have previously stated, about two tons or 50 cwt. ; it is possible to draw more than one carriage on good roads, but I do not think it would be a circumstance of common occur¬ rence. What have the chief inconveniences been that you have met with on your joumies? The principal inconveniences we have met with have been minor derangements of some parts of the machinery, such as the valves of the pump being deranged, or tanks leaking, or something of that kind. 1 never met with any serious accident, except perhaps the first accident in going up Highgate Hill, which was five years ago. The- carriage wasnot tben com¬ plete in referrence to dragging; I went up the hill contrary to the expecta¬ tions of every body present, and the workmen were so delighted at it that they neglected to lock the wheel; the carriage was started down the hill without any drag to it; it became difficultly manageable, and ran against a gtone, and was upset. This is the only accident I have ever experienced myself. I believe Sir Charles Dance onceupset the carriage in a first essay. Those are the only accidents of the kind I am aware of. It has been stated that one of your engines has blown up at Cheltenham; is that the case? I am not aware of that; I rather believe that the lifting of the safety-valve when the carriage stops is considered to be a bursting, which I think must be so in this statement. I saw the carriages the day after the accident of the crank breaking, where it is stated to have burst, and certain¬ ly the carriage had not blown up then; nothing more than the safety-valve had lifted. I came to Cheltenham the day after the accident occurred. What was the nature of the accident which occurred? The breaking of one of the cranks, occasioned by the extra difficulty the carriage was placed in; new stones were laid in a hollow of the road, I am told about 18 inches deep; the carriage had gone through it twice with twenty passengers; the third time it fractured the axle, from the extra force necessary to get it through; the road was in an unusual state; I saw the passengers of a four- horse coach get down in the stones. I was told at the time, by people of great respectability, that all the two-horse coaches invariably put down their pas¬ sengers; that the mail was stopped; that there" were two wagons and two coaches in the stones stopped at the same time, and that they were obliged to èxckange their horses to get through. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 23 Has any other aceident occurred to that carriage except that j-ou have now stated? Nothing that I am aware of material. Have the wheels of your carriages frequently caught fire? Never; I saw the three carriages the day after the accident-, neither one had taken fire. I am sorry such an idea should for a moment exist: I think it has been occa¬ sioned by misconception or prejudiced mis statements. Is the construction of your boiler and of your fire-place such, that it is impossible for the carriage to catch fire? I believe it to be impossible. You have stated that you require to charge your engine once in seven miles? Yes; to charge the tank with water, and to take fresh fuel. Do you anticipate, in the course of your experience, that you would be able, to overcome that inconvenience of being obliged to charge so frequently? We can now go double the distance; but we should bave a weight of water and a weight of fuel, a greater expense to carry than if we take in one charge at seven mile stages. Are the wheels you ordinarily travel with four inches wide on the tire? From three and a half to four inches. Have you any information to give to the committee in relation to the re¬ lative wear of the tire of wheels and the shoes of horses? That is a new horse shoe [producing one,] and this is a shoe of the same size, worn on the streets of London nine days: the shoe has lost about IS ounces. Have you any means of ascertaining how many hours a day it had been out? The horse ran in a cab; it was out a certain number of hours, I think, three or four hours each day; the smith was taking off the shoe which had been worn, and putting on the other, when I asked him to let me have them. The difference between the wear and tear of tires and horse shoes on the roads in the neighbourhood of London are in the proportions of about three- fourths on the shoes, and one-fourth on the tires; but in London, over the streets, about seven-eighths and one-eighth. I would observe that on rail¬ roads, where horses draw the carriages, the expense of keeping the horse roads is so great, that the proprietors frequently go to a great expense to pave them. From Cheltenham to Gloucester, for instance, and in many other parts of England, this is the case. I would also call the attention of the committee to some parts of London, where the horses and the wheels continue to pass over the same ground respectively, as in Wych-street; and I would submit the importance of the committee referring to the expense of keeping the towing-paths of canals in repair, where only horses, and com¬ paratively few, travel over them. At this moment, those are the only means enabling me to speak to the relative wear and tear. Have you used your carriages on pavements? Yes; never to run continu¬ ally on a pavement, but to run in and out of towns. Do they run easier on pavements than on ordinary roads? Yes; they on¬ ly take about a quarter the power on a pitched pavement, that is, a quar¬ ter of the power they would over a gravelled road. In the progress of this improvement, do you anticipate that it will be ne¬ cessary to adapt some portion of the turnpike roads to carriages of this de¬ scription, or do you think they can be put into operation on the turnpike roads as they are now existing? I think they can be put into operation on the turnpike roads as they are now existing; I have no doubt at all about it. You do not anticipate the necessity of paved roads being made for the purposes of those carriages? As far as economy goes, in the expense of power, it may be desirable; but for the practical application of the steam it is not necessary. 24 [ Doc. No. 101. ] Can any proportion be drawn between the friction occasioned by tile horses feet and the tire of the wheel? I do not see how it is possible to do so, un¬ less you take the loss or abrasion of the two metals respectively, in a given quantity of work or miles travelled over. Have you any practical experience in the repair of turnpike roads? I have had my attention turned to it, connected only with this subject. I have seen the great expense of keeping towing paths and horse-paths in repair; and I have seen the great expense of keeping the streets in repair, where horses alone travel; and I have seen the great wear and tear of iron shoes, when compared with the wheels of carriages. Have you any plan to submit for fixing the tolls on steam carriages? The plan I should propose would be, if I may be allowed the term, that an iron horse of the same weight as one of flesh and bones should pay the same ' toll; and takingone horse to weigh 10 cwt., that for every 10 cwt. the steam carriage weighs, it it should pay the same toll as one horse pays; although f do not admit that the same weight carried on four wheels will do as mueh mischief as on four hoofs. If we take the turnpike acts, and look at the comparative rate of tolls charged when a horse is drawing, and when he is not drawing, I shall be, I conceive, borne out in my position. Can you point to any clause in private bills which press more than you conceive they should on steam carriages? There is one, the Liverpool and Prescot road bill, this session, charging a toll per horse-power, which it is difficult to determine. My objection to that is, that if the horse-power is taken as the nominal engine horse-power, a steam coach would have to pay 21. S s. where a stage coach pays only 4s. a toll. The next is the Bathgate, near Edinburgh road, where the tolls are on weight, and an engine of three tons (about the usual weight of a loaded four-horse stage-coach), would have to pay 1I. Is. Id., when four horses would have to pay 5s. The next is the Ashburn and Totness road bill, where 21, would be charged on the steam carriage and the carriage attached, being 5s. on each wheel; four horses, at the same time, would have to pay 3s. The next is the Teignmouth and Dawlish roads: they are in the proportion of 2s. and 12s. What is the most favorable instance to steam carriages? The Metropo¬ lis roads, near London, charge Is. for four horses, and 2s. for the steam car¬ riage and the one drawn. I complain of that because it limits me to a particu¬ lar kind of carriage. I am building one which will not weigh more than 5 cwt. and carry only two or three persons, and it would be excessive to have to pay 2s. There is no reduction if it is no bigger than a wheelbarrow; being propelled by machinery, it will be charged double. How many private bills have been introduced this session in which steam carriages have been specially taxed? I have fifty-four, which I now pro¬ duce. I understand there are others. Have any of them passed into a law? Yes, some of them have. In your opinion, vvhat proportion of the tolls should horses and carriages be chargeable with? Talcing the average of the amount of tolls throughout the country, it will be found that where a horse pays a penny not drawing, he pays about three-pence when he is drawing. In that case, the toll upon the coach is nominally put upon the horse (it says, so many horses drawing): four horses drawing will be a shilling; four horses passing through, not drawing, will be four-pence; in some cases it is three half-pence a herse when not drawing, and sixpence when drawing; but in general the proportions appear to be, three-eighths the toll placed upon the horse, and five-eighths upon the [[ Doc. No. 101. ] carriage; three half-pence a horse not drawing, and sixpence drawing, gives three-fourths; but the mean is about three-eighths and five-eighths; so that the toll is virtually about five-eighths on the carriage, and three eighths on the horse. I have previously stated that I have had horses weighed, and found the average about 10 cwt. each horse; therefore, if a steam engine weighs 10 cwt. it should pay only as one horse when it passes through not drawing, and as one horse drawing when it has any thing attached to it. A 10 cwt. steam engine cannot propel more than one horse can draw; therefore the weight drawn cannot exceed a certain quantity. If the weight of the engine exceeds 10 cwt. and not twenty, it should pay as two horses; if it exceeds 20 and not 30, it should pay as three horses; if 30 cwt. and not ex¬ ceeding 40, it should pay as four horses, and so on. Practically horses drawing frequently draw a weight of 80 cwt. ? Yes, sometimes, but 15 cwt. a horse is the usual weight. I have always felt a great anxiety that the weight of the steam engine should not injure the road, and I have felt desirous of not introducing it until it was reduced; and I now cheerfully admit, that if the weight of the locomotive exceeded 60 cwt., which is the weight of the present loaded stage coaches, with the passengers and their luggage, there should be a very heavy toll put on them. I would also propose that if my wheels are wider than four inches, the tolls should be less; if they are six inches, then they should be still less; but taking the prin¬ ciple of 10 cwt. of iron and copper to do the work of one horse, and that it should pay the same tolls, and that no weight of steam carriage should be admitted above 60 cwt. on the road, I certainly should myself be content, and as I cannot for a moment imagine that the 10 cwt. running on four wheels can do so much harm as 10 cwt. carried on four feet, that the interests of turnpike trusts would be fairly preserved by such a scale of tolls. What is the amount of toll charged between Gloucester and Cheltenham? Five shillings and sixpence. What would be charged on a four-horse coach? Two shillings and eight- pence. Your steam carriage, according to the last improvement, weighs 35 cwt. without the weight of persons to direct it? Yes, and without the weight of the fuel. Do you not consider that the steam carriages would be applicable not on¬ ly to the moving carriages at a rapid rate, but also to moving certain weights at a slower pace? I think it is possible, but it would be very expensive, be¬ cause I find that when you get below a rate of four miles an hour, the ex¬ pense in fuel is greater than the expense in horses; if the rate exceeds four miles an hour, then it is cheaper, and it becomes cheaper geometrically over horses as you get up. What is the greatest weight which you conceive your steam carriages could draw after them on a level road at the rate of four miles an hour, the carriage weighing two tons? Every 10 cwt. in the engine would draw what one horse could draw, so that two tons would draw as much as four horses. Will the rate of tolls you have remarked in the bills you have produced, prohibit the use of steam coaches on these roads? Certainly. What do you calculate to be the comparative expense of running a steam carriage and running a coach with four horses? That varies in different situ¬ ations, according to the price of coke and the price of labor. It is in all cases considerably less, at least one-half less. 4 26 [ Doc. No. 101. ] * You anticipate that the principal use of steam carriages will be the con¬ veyance of passengers, and at one half of the expense at which they travel now? Yes; and in less time. Can you deliver in to the committee a detailed estimate of the expense of running a steam coach, and one of running an ordinary coach? Yes, I will prepare them. At what rate do you suppose it would be safe to run steam carriages on the public roads? I have run them safely eighteen and twenty miles an hour; but twelve miles an hour is perfectly safe and practicable. The rate will be de¬ termined by practice principally: in directing the carnage at present there is no difficulty or danger in guiding the carriage at this rate. Would there not bedanger in passing a carriage drawn by horses? If the engineer was careless it might be, but not with care; a mail-coach travels far beyond that at times. You make your wheels cylindrical? They must be cylindrical, for they turn with the axles. None of yours are less than three inches now? No; three inches to three and a half, even where the carriage weighs two tons weight Veneris, 5° die Jiugusli, 1831. Mr. Goldsworthy Gvrney, again called in, and examined.' Will you give in the statement that you were directed to produce on the last examination? I will. [The witness delivered in the same.] Calculation as the relative expense betwixt Horse and Steam Power for Locomotion. In order to estimate the comparative expense between horse and steam ■oower ior orawing carriages on common roads, I will take the relative ex¬ pense on lOOmiies of ground for working a common stage coach by steam and by horses The first cost, wear and tear of the coach drawn, in every respect, is the same in both cases. The expense of men to manage is about the same also. In one case there is a coachman and guard: in the other, an engineer and director. Government duty and turnpike tolls must also be considered the same. It remains then to show the difference in the expense of power only, viz. betwixt the expense of horses and the expense of steam. First in the out¬ lay, on 100 miles of gound. To work a coach well with horses 100 miles up and 100 miles down once a day, will require 100 horses. A horse a mile is the present calculaiion for doing the work. If these horses be taken at £ 20 or £ 30 per horse, or say £ 25, it will amount to £ 2,500. Three steam carriages will do the same work, and the expense of these will be about £ 500 each, or ¡ß 1,500 for the three. A saving will consequently be effected in the first outlay of £ 1,000 in capital. The wear and tear of horses may be estimated at about £ 5 each per an¬ num on the 100 horses, viz. £ 500 per annum. [[ Doc. No. 101. ] 27 The wear and tear of three steam towing carriages will not exceed £ 100 each per annum: £ 300 for the three;—saving in wear and tear, £ 200. The expense of shoeing, keep, provision, attendance, harness, &c. is per day somewhere about 3s. each or £ 15 upon the 100 horses. The expense of fuel for two carriages, one up and the other down, doing the same work, will be that of 100 bushels ofcokeat 6d. per bushel; say £2. 10. Or if we take Is. per mile per horse power, it will be about the same. The expense of fuel for the steam carriage will be, on an average through¬ out England, about 3d. In some coal districts it will not exceed Id. per mile; while in other situation it will amount to 6d. I have not taken into this estimate the expense of stables which is consid¬ erable when compared with sheds for coke and water. From these data, I conclude the carriage may be worked by steam at one- filth the expense of horses. Abstract. Horse power. £. s. d. 1 Steam power. £. s. d. Outlay for horses 2,500 0 0 Outlay for steam carriages - ! Balance of saving in the outlay 1 in favor of steam power. - 1500 0 1,000 0 0 0 Wear and tear of horses, per annum - 500 0 0 j Wear and tear of steam tow¬ ing carriages, Balance, saving in tear and wear in favor of steam pow¬ er- 300 0 200 0 0 0 Shoeing, keep, attendance, pro¬ vision, harness, &c., per day, for 100 horses Fuel for steam carriages, half bushel per mile travelled, at 6d. per bushel Balance, saving 15 0 0 2 10 12 10 0 0 Have you any additional evidence to give to the committee, on points which you have considered after your last examination? I have no further evidence in connection with the practicability of the carriage. Would you wish to explain your former evidence, or to give any addition¬ al evidence upon the subject? On looking over the evidence, I find it cor¬ rect. I should observe, in explanation, that at 3s. a day I have taken in the wear and tear of the horses, and the attendance, and the fuel. How long are your boilers calculated to last? About three year.: fair treatment. How frequently do they require examination? Oncea fortnightor three weeks: it depends on the situations where they work. In some situations where lime is held in solution in the water in large quantities, they require cleaning oftener, but in other situations, where there is very little earthy matter held in solution, they will run for a month or two months. Is there a facility of cleaning them? There is, from recent improvements in cleaning, very great facility. Is there any expense attendant on the operation of cleaning? One day's work of a laborer, their not requiring an engineer. [ Doc. No. 101. 3 You have stated in your former evidence that it would be unjust to put a toll on steam carriages according to the nominal horse power of the en¬ gines; will you state why it would be unjust to put a toll in that way? Be¬ cause I conceive at present there is no standard by which we can fix a horse power. Will you state to the committee the variations of rate at which the differ¬ ent engineers have calculated horse power? The most generally received standard is ISO pounds at two miles an hour—say from 150 to 200. Could there be any fair system of toll established by the length of stroke and the area of the piston? I think not; the length of stroke and the area of piston will give power in proportion to the pressure of the steam upon it; the apparatus for supplying or generating the necessary steam would vary considerably in weight in different engines; and therefore the weight ot different engines would vary so much perhaps as three times or four times. Would there be any objection to placing toll on an engine according to its greatest power of working? I think it would be very difficult to ascer¬ tain its greatest power of working; it might be done, but it would be very inconvenient. Are there no means of ascertaining the average power of working? Horse¬ power is very arbitrary ; the best standard which I can give, is the evapora¬ tion of water, and I should say that the evaporation of nine gallons of water in an hour, ought to be equivalent to one horse-power. One engineer will apply the steam with more effect from nine gallons of water, and with more general advantage than another: nine gallons may be taken as an average. What is the diameter of your cylinder, and what the length of stroke? I believe I have given the length of stroke in my former evidence, but not the diameter of the cylinder. The diameter of the cylinder now used is about eight inches, offering 64 circular inches area on the piston. Is there not on those engines an average rate of expenditure, not speaking with mathematical certainty; is there not the means of calculating pretty well the expenditure necessary to work them? The expense of fuel for work¬ ing them is well ascertained. Having ascertained that it will evaporate nine gallons of water in an hour, you come pretty nearly to the expenditure of one horse power? It does riot follow in all cases that one horse power will be practically produced from nine gallons; and, on the other hand, I may state that I have seen a horse power produced from five and six gallons. At what pressure? It does not signify much at what pressure. You say that the evaporation of nine gallons of water is equal to one horse power; does it not make a difference according to the pressure? This is a point unsettled at present by engineers; some advocate high, others low pressure. You have stated that if you wished to increase the power of your engine you would increase the weight of it, and decrease the size of the wheels? It might be done either way: the union of the two is not necessary as far as re¬ gards the intensity of power: the quantity of power must be produced by an increase of weight, or by some increased or rapid formation of steam. What is the weight of a loaded wagon, with horses? At this moment I am not prepared to give an accurate answer, but I should think six tons. Does that include the weight of the horses? No. What should you judge to be the weight of the horse usually attached? From 14 to 16 cwt. each horse. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 29 Would not you, by increasing the size of the cylinder, increase your power? Yes, in direct proportion with the increase of the area. What objection do you see to increasing the size of your cylinder, and ap¬ plying it to a large wagon, so as to use steam carriages for the mere carri¬ age of goods? I think the difficulty and objection lies in the management practically; it would be difficult in our present stage of knowledge and ex¬ perience to manage a large cylinder very rapidly on the road; but I see no other obstacle to great speed; there is no theoretical difficulty. I would wish to state, in connection with my former evidence with respect to fuel for working slowly heavy carriages, that my opinion was founded on some peculiar laws of momentum lately observed. It is well known that one en¬ gine, when worked at a given rate, works expansively; that an engine work¬ ing at a quicker rate, if a piston only travels half a mile an hour, or 50 feet a minute, it will require more fuel for it to do a given work, than if working at 200 feet a minute. Is not the momentum gained by greater velocity an accumulation of pow¬ er? I think the advantage gained by certain rapidity of action, arises from the inequalities of the road being- overbalanced by the momentum of the carriage. When the carriage travels slowly, every inequality, every stone or slight obstacle partly destroys the momentum, but at a certain speed it over¬ comes them. There is no actual gain of power by momentum; it is only an accumulation very much like that in a common fly-wheel, and in a carriage on a common road: it acts on inequalties as a fly-wheel does in overcoming unequal obstacles in machinery. You use coke only? We occasionally may use charcoal, but very seldom. What is the proportion in price, and what in value, between coal and coke? I think one bushel of coals is equal in raising steam to two bushels of coke. What is the difference of price on the average? The difference of price is, I think, about two-thirds. Then there would be a loss, as compared together, in using coke? Coals would be much cheaper than coke, but that loss in the expense of fuel we are disposed to suffer rather than produce a nuisance on the road by smoke. Do you conceive that there can be no mode of escaping that by any smoke- consuming apparatus? I know of no mode that is likely to succeed, nor do I conceive that it is possible to make such a combustion of coals that is like¬ ly to consume all the sublimated or volatilized matter: the consuming of smoke or the combustion of smoke is prevented principally by the parti¬ cles being mechanically mixed with, or surrounded by, carbonic acid gas. I believe it not to be chemically combined. Would not the motion of the carriage and the current of air that is pro¬ duced by going quickly through the air, give great facility in the application of a smoke-consuming apparatus? If the consumption of smoke depended on the presence of oxygen gas or atmospheric air which contains it, I think it would; but on my previous reasoning, I do not think the consumption of smoke would be effected by any quantity of atmospheric air. I have madej several very extensive experiments on this subject, and the only experimen that I have succeeded in, was by passing it through sand mixed with quick lime, by which the carbonic acid was obsorbed, and the smoke, as it passed through the mixture, rendered combustible; the carbonic acid was removed to a considerable extent, and left the carbonic oxyde and hydrogen gas in such a free state as to be combustible. 30 [ Doc. No. 101. 2 Of what materials are your propelling wheels? The same as a common stage coach wheel. Are the wheels of the carriage drawn nearly of equal diameter with the wheels of your drawing carriage? Rather less; the diameter of the wheels of the drawing carriage is about five feet, and the ordinary diameter of a stage coach that is drawn is about four feet six. From the experiments you have made, supposing the drawing carriage and the carriage drawn were ot equal weights, what do you think would be the different proportion of weight, on the wheels? None. Do you speak that with any certainty? Yes, I do. I have taken the loss of iron upon coaches after knowing the number of miles they had travelled over, and the loss of iron on the steam carriage, and the number of miles it had travelled over, and find that the loss in both cases bore the same pro¬ portion. Is coke alone used on the railways in the locomotive engines? On the Manchester and Liverpool railroad, I believe there is a clause in their act to prevent any nuisance being made by smoke, and coke is therefore used; but in the ordinary railroads in Wales and other places coal is used. In what part of your engine is your safety-valve situated? It is situated at the option of the engineer; frequently in the steam pipe leading from the boiler to the carriage, most generally; so that the steam as it passes through that pipe, may lift the safety-valve, or it may go to the engine, as the state of pressure shall determine. Do you make use of one or two safety-valves? Only one. I occasional¬ ly use two, but we now use only one. If your carriages were brought into general use, would you suggest that two safety-valves should be required, one out of the reach of the engineer to prevent accidents from occurring from racing, or other causes which could induce the guide to increase the pressure of steam? I should recommend one being locked, and an inspector being appointed to examine it every jour¬ ney. Perhaps I may be allowed to make an observation or two with respect to the bursting of boilers, which subject, I believe, is now under consideration. From experiments which 1 have made in connection with this subject, I am led to believe that the bursting of boilers is not always occasioned by pres¬ sure of steam. I have discovered that, at a certain degree of temperature, and under certain circumstances, when water is decomposed, that the hydro¬ gen is often formed into a new state of combination with oxygen and nitro¬ gen gas, which compound is exceedingly explosive; so much so, that I believe scarcely any provision that we can make in the shape of a safety-valve, would protect the vessel. This was a subject which I was led to some time ago, from some observations which I had made on the combinations of oxygen and hydrogen only. I had some conversation with Gay Lussac on this sub¬ ject, and he was of the same opinion with myself, particularly that there were different chemical compounds of hydrogen and oxygen gases which at present were not acknowledged. The only one acknowledged in this coun¬ try is that forming water. A compound of two proportions in volume of oxygen and two of hydrogen, has been chemically combined in Paris, al¬ though I believe we have never succeeded publicly in this country. This compound was highly explosive when brought in contact with certain sub¬ stances, It would be by expansion? By chemical contact; if brought into contact with certain substances, it would be affected as to produce explosion. I have [ Doc. No. 101. ] 31 reason to believe from some original experiments, that there is a compound of these elements produced under certain circumstances in steam boilers. The want of water in a boiler is favorable, in which case the temperature is raised and the compound formed; the bursting of boilers I believe frequent¬ ly takes place, from this compound coming in contact with substances that will decompose it, and perhaps I might mention this fact, as it is a very in¬ teresting one, namely, that boilers often burst when the vavles are known to blow at a pressure very considerably lower than the boiler has been proved to. Does not that take place also when the water is in the boiler? If the water is low in the boiler, it will take place; if it is high, never. Has it not frequently happened that boilers that were calculated for a high¬ er pressure, have even burst at a lower pressure than they were intended for when water is in them? When water is high in them, never; but when it is so low in them as to form this chemical compound, it does. I would state a fact which was mentioned to me by my friend Sir Anthony Carlisle, which throws considerable light upon the subject, and first led me to my suspicions and experiments respecting it. The case was, that a boiler at Mr. Meux's brewery, with an open top—a common cauldron—burst with a violent ex¬ plosion. I believe one man was killed, and two very severely scalded. There was no cover at all on the vessel. This phenomenon, upon inquiry, appeared to be occasioned by gelatinous matter, forming a crust, a film, or blister, and prevented the contact of water with the bottom of the boiler. The bottom of the boiler consequently got hot; the compound I alluded to was formed, or the rupture of this film, and the sudden contact of water against the hot surface below, produced such an immense and sudden volume of steam, that it burst the boiler. I would explain it by saying it was analogous to the bursting of a gun, in which case an ounce or two of shot is placed on¬ ly against the charge. Whenever there is a sudden formation of elastic matter and there be ever so small a weight opposed, the shock will be very great, and a gun will frequently burst, though there is not an ounce of shot in it, and which charge may be considered in the light of a safety-valve in this case. What precautions have you taken in your boilers, that there may be no probability of their being without water? This compound never forms with¬ out a certain raised temperature. Before this temperature, necessary for de¬ composition, takes place, it melts a fuseable compound alloy of metal, placed so as to allow of its escape. The matter formed escapes, and all danger is pre¬ vented. Have you any precaution to prevent the water escaping out of your nar¬ row tubes, by bubbles of steam? Yes; that I would explain by reference to the first drawing, (No. 1.) which will show that the bubble of water, as it escapes from a tube in connection with a part of the boiler, is supplied simultaneously from the lower part of the tube, and a stream of water is thus made constantly to pass through. Would not that stream of water act as a safety-valve? When there is water, it is sufficient, but when water gets down in any boiler, there is no safety-valve that will protect it, and hence arise the inexplicable accidents that have occurred frequently in steamboats; the size of the boiler is the on¬ ly protection without the safety alloy. Have you any guage, or means of ascertaining when there is a defiency of water in the boiler? Yes; the melting of the safety plug, I would state, on 32 [ Doc. No. 101. ] ly takes place in cases of great negligence, or in cases of extremity. The guage by which we ascertain the quantity of water in the boiler, is the com¬ mon glass guage, well known to those acquainted with the subject. Have you any guage to examine the intensity of the steam? Yes, we have a piston which is forced out in proportion to the pressure; in addition to the glass guages, there are also stop cocks, so as to ascertain, by turning them, the actual height of water. I beg to state, that the safety plug has never, but four or five times, given way in all my experiments, and that has been in cases where we -have been accidently out of water in our tanks; no per¬ sonal mischief can arise from such an accident. I am satisfied, without this plug, an explosion would have taken place in some of the tubes. In large boilers, under these circumstances, inevitable destruction would have atten¬ ded it. Are you aware of the size of the cylinders and stroke of the engines on the Manchester and Liverpool railroad? I believe them to be ten inches diameter, and about fourteen inches stroke. In some of the later engines, I believe they have been made of fourteen inches diameter, the stroke being the same; but I rather think that that size has been given up, and that they have returned again to the ten inches diameter. What is the greatest weight, in proportion to its own weight, which any carriage draws on a railroad? A carriage was originally supposed to draw only three times its own weight on a railroad; but in some experiments which I made in Wales with Mr. Crawshay, of Cwrfaithfa Castle, we found in an experiment, that a carriage draws thirty times its own weight. He. has the minutes which we made upon the occasion; but I believe, in prac¬ tice, they scarcely exceed five times, or from five to ten. You have stated that in your carriages you do not anticipate drawing more than the weight of the engine? Practically, on the common road, weight for weight. I explained, in my former evidence, that it was possible to do more under favorable circumstances; but circumstances vary so much on the common road, that we ought not to calculate on doing more than weight for weight. The diameter of your steam-wheel is rather greater than the diameter of a carriage-wheel? Yes, the size of the wheel I proportion to the engine, so that the piston may work under the most favorable circumstances. It is by experiment simply that you have arrived at your present size of cylinder? Yes. You stated in your former evidence, that you anticipated that passengers would be carried atone-half the rate by your steam carriages that they are by the common carriages; what difference in the ordinary expenses of car¬ riage would it make if you had a paved road for this purpose? 1 think that it would reduce the expense to one-half again. If there were properly paved roads, you conceive that passengers might be carried at one-fourth the present expense? Not exactly; because the total ex¬ pense includes the government duty, tolls, &c. as the same; but as far as the steam power is concerned they would. These subjects have been inquired into by a mathematical friend of mine, and he has published the result of his inquiries, which I will take the liberty of delivering in. [The ivitness delivered in the same.] You have stated that, in certain states of the road, you find increased diffi¬ culty than in other states? I have; and the difficulty arises from a meehani- [ Doc, No. 101. ] 33 cal application of the steam simply; namely, in consequence of the road be¬ ing in a greasy state, and the wheels therefore more easily slipping, and, un¬ der the circumstances, do not furnish so good a fulcrum for propelling. Have you ever watched the operation of your carriages in snow? I have; I have used them both on snow and on ice. On ice, a very little roughing of the wheels is necessary, in the same manner as you rough horses, and little power is sufficient to propel the carriage, because, under those circum¬ stances, the power to draw the weight is very considerably reduced, and therefore the full power of the engine is not necessary to be exerted; in deep snow, there certainly is great difficulty; but I have no doubt that as the subject goes on improving, all those practical difficulties will be overcome. The difficulty would be greater in your carriage than in other carriages, would it not? I think not; I think the carriage might be so constructed as to remove the difficulty. Will you state effect of ice below, and snowabove, upon the action of your carriages? I have had occasion, in two or three instances, to use the car¬ riage under those circumstances, with a view judging of the practical result of it; and I have not found any difficulty in its progress. The snow is press¬ ed strongly under the wheel, becomes almost immovable, and furnishes â good fulcrum for the wheel; a little preparation is only necessary, and a very little is sufficient to overcome any moderate obtsacle of that kind. May I be al¬ lowed to give in to the committee a scale of what I conceive to be an equita¬ ble toll on steam carriages? it is the same in principle as I gave in on my last examination, but is extended. [ The witness delivered in the same.'] To what width could you extend the tire, without any inconvenience to the working of your carriage? At present I cannot say to what limit it may be carried, but six inches would be no inconvenience. Then your carriage would go with six inches tire? I think so; and, un¬ der certain circumstances, easier, where the crust of the road is hard. Would not that depend very much upon the road? It would; I would state general principles: I would submit to the consideration of the commit¬ tee, better to explain my meaning, that it frequently happens that a frost forms a crust sufficiently hard to support the weight of a carriage a ton weight, but that it breaks under one or two tons; the power required to draw two carriages respectively so circumstanced is so great, that I can give you no data for estimates off-hand; but it is evident, that the power of drawing a one-ton carriage would be little compared with the proportion of power re¬ quired for drawing two. My answer to the question is, generali}', as I find the public roads at this time. To what velocity could you increase your present rate of travelling with your engine? I have stated that the velocity is limited by practical experi¬ ence only; theoretically it is limited only by quantity of steam; 12 miles, I think, we might keep up steadily, and run with great safety. The extreme rate that we have run is between 20 and 30 miles an hour. I stated in my former evidence, that the carriage when upset by Sir Charles Dance, was, at that time, going at 18 miles an hour, but no injury happened either to the ma¬ chinery or the persons upon it: still I am of opinion that that speed might be maintained with perfect safety by a little experience in practical manage¬ ment. 5 34 [ Doc. No. 101. ] What are the practical objections to going at that rate? I think the prin¬ cipal objections are want of real knowledge and experience: I have been so many times disappointed in what theoretically I had imagined true, that I am afraid to give a decided opinion on subjects not practically proved. Have you any thing further that you wish to state to the committee? I would state generally, in regard to themain improvements on steam engines, by which this country has been so much benefitted, and the prospects of ad¬ vantages arising from steam carriages, that they have almost always been in a direct ratio with that of removing of horses; that the great and splendid im¬ provements of Mr. Watt have generally been supposed to be principally con¬ nected with the separate condenser of the steam engine, and the saving of the fuel; but before Mr. Walt's day, we could empty our mines of water in Cornwall, and we could do a variety of other simple work by the steam en¬ gine, and so far the improvement of Mr. Watt was simply with respect to the saving of fuel; but I consider that the great national advantage arising from Mr. Watt's improvement, has been his application of the steam engine to machinery; and the extent of that advantage to the community has been in a direct proportion to the removal of horse power, a most unproductive la¬ borer, and a dead expense to the country. If this view of the subject be en¬ tertained, the application of steam to propelling carriages on common roads, will be as important above its application to machinery generally, as the number of horses employed in locomotion exceed those necessary to machi¬ nery, which bears no proportion with respect to each other. At Hounslow alone, there are, at this moment, upwards of 1,000 horses employed in stage coaches and posting. On the Paddington road, a distance of five miles only, there are upwards of 1,000 horses employed at this moment. Throughout Great Britain, it is almost impossible to say how many horses are employed, but I should perhaps be within bounds if I were to say millions, in posting and stage coaches. If it is possible to remove those horses by an elementary power, which I firmly believe is practicable, the national advantage must be in proportion to the nnmber of horses so removed; for if it is shown that one carriage horse can be removed trom the road by the present state of steam carriages, I see no reason why every horse so employed should not be so re¬ moved. It has been decided that the consumption of a horse is equal to that necessary for eight individuals, so for every horse that is removed and is sup¬ plied by elementary power, we make way for the maintenance of eight indi¬ viduals. If it is possible to carry the idea so far, and I see no objection to it, to do the principal work of horses by steam, or if if can be done by ele¬ mentary power, the committee may imagine to what extent we may provide for our increasing population. I think we may do much by political laws and enactments, but natural laws will do more, and when pointed out by the fin¬ ger of Providence, may be made to provide for his wise dispensations. I firm¬ ly believe that the introduction of steam carriages will do more than any other thing for this country. I have always had this impression; 1 left an honorable and lucrative profession, in which I was extensively engaged, in order to attend to this subject, because I was convinced of its importance and practicability; I have always entertained the same idea as I do at present. Imperfections will exist in'the machinery ; but I conceive that the main points of difficulty have been removed by the experiments I have made, and that all those now remaining are practical difficulties, which will be removed by further experience; and if there is no cause opposed by the Legislature, or any other source, I will be bold to say, that, in five years, steam carriages will be [ Doc. No. 101. 3 35 generally employed throughout England. I have not hesitated, having these feelings, to devote all my time for the last six years to the subject, and am mentally recompensed by the present state of the subject. Private car¬ riages also will be used. Under this opinion, I have given directions for build¬ ing a small one. I expect it will go quicker, safer, more easily, and certainly more independently than a common carriage, because it does not need the food of a horse. Do you apprehend much decrease in the price of your engines? Ido, and I also anticipate that steam will be supplanted by the use of other elementary power; but I do not think that will take place in our day. I think that steam will be generally introduced, and that the pubic will feel the import tance of it; and that scientific men will be directed to examine and employ- in ks stead other substances, and new compounds are continually turning up, and some will eventually be applied to mechanical purposes. Do you believe that there will be other ways of raising steam? I do not now speak of steam, but certain compounds. I do not specify any particular compound at this moment. I state those generally which are known to pro¬ duce power by chemical change: some peculiarly explosive and aeriform bodies for instance. I am informed that at present there are between 20 and 40 different carriages building, or about to be built, by different persons, all of which have been occasioned principally by the decided journey which I took of 200 miles in 1829, and which convinced not only the public of its practicability, but also some of those very men who are now employed in this object, and who previously had laughed at the idea, and considered it chimerical. In what particular point of machinery does your patent consist? I have three patents, the first for the boiler, the second for the peculiar application of it, and the third for improvements that have been made since. Do you anticipate much saving of fuel in your future experiments? I do; I think the saving of fuel will be in proportion to the saving of water. That is, that there will be a saving from the better application of the fuel and boiler? Yes; and from the general improvements in machinery. For in¬ stance, it is an unsettled point at this moment whether a pressure of 20 lbs. to an inch, or 120 lbs. to an inch, is best. It is not yet decided, which time will decide. Do you cut off your steam, so as to work expansively? Yes, we generally- work expansively. You have mentioned that various accidents had happened to the crank of the engine, which were not accounted for: have you in contemplation to ef¬ fect any change in the application of the power ? At present, I think the crank the most simple; in some of my first experiments I worked with a chain passing over two wheels from one to another; also by a rack and pin¬ ion, and various motions of that kind; but I think that nothing is equal to a crank: that also is the opinion of others besides myself. Upon the Liver¬ pool railroad they first applied the power'to the outside of the wheel, but they have come to my drawing (Mo. 3.) at last, and they now work by the crank on the axle: this practically confirms my opinion. There is one ob¬ servation which I would at this moment make in connection with my former evidence. I have been frequently asked, what would happen in case of an accident happening to the guide or director, in case he falls asleep, or in case he is disengaged from his seat? I have provided for all those casualties, dis¬ tant as they are, by making the valves of the engine only remain in gear 36 [ Doc. No. 101. ] when the guide is in his proper situation: the moment he is thrown off his seat, by accident or otherwise, the engine instantly stops. Does that depend upon the guide's weight? No; it is by his foot he keeps the valves down, and the effect on the carriage when he takes it off is very singular. I merely mention that fact in connection with the practical detail and safety of the carriage. The same contrivance, by simply lifting the foot, prevents the carriage from running down hill too quickly, and we do not re¬ quire the complicated drags that were before used. Mr. Walter Hancock, called in, and examined. Are you the proprietor of a steam carriage running on a turnpike road? Yes. How long have you been running that steam carriage? I dare say about a twelve month this present coach, but I have been working for hire on the road only a month. Are you the inventor of that particular description of engine that you make use of? Yes. Will you state the progress which you have made in the improvement of your steam carriage? The principal improvement I consider is in the boiler; that of constructing the boiler much lighter than any that are now in use. Will you be kind enough to give a general outline of your plan? There are flat chambers which are placed side by side, the chambers being about two inches thick, and there is a space between each two inches; there are ten chambers, and there are ten flues, and under the flues there is six square feet of fire, which is the dimension of the boiler top and bottom. The chambers are filled from half full to two-thirds with water, and the other third is left for steam : there is a communication quite through the series of chambers top and bottom; this communication is formed by means of two large bolts, which screw all the chambers together; the bottom bolts the bottom part of the chambers, and the top bolts the top part of the chambers; and by releasing those bolts at any time at all the chambers fall apart, and by screwing them they are all made tight again. We have braces to fasten them; the steam is driven outfrom the centre of one of the flues, and the water is ejected from the pump at the bottom communication for the supply of water. Does the fire pass between the boxes, or does it pass through them? It passes only between them. There is no line of communication for the fire made between the boxes? Nothing more than the flue through which the fire passes; the sides of the boilers form the chimneys. Have you ascertained what pressure such boilers are equal to? I have never gone beyond 400 lbs. on an inch. I have worked^it on a road at 400; the average pressure on an inch is froin 60 to 100. At what pressure do you set your safety-valve? Taking the average of roads, I work at about 70 lbs. upon the square inch. You have calculated how may square feet of boiler? At the present car¬ riage, I have 100 square feet of boiler exposed to the fire. What distance do you run from stage to stage? What I consider the stages I have run is four miles; but every eight miles I take in water; I go there and back. You consider your stage eight miles? Yes. Do you take in both water and fuel at the end of a stage? Yes, at the end of every eight miles. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 37 What quantity of water and what quantity of fuel do you use for each stage? About 7 cwt. of water, and sometimes eight; it depends upon the roads; we consume more steam when the roads run heavy. - How much coal or coke do you use for each stage? About two bushels of coke. Do you mean that you take two bushels at the commencement of each stage? I take more with me, but I always consume a quarter of a bushel per mile. You do not in that include your first charge of coke when you set off? No, chat would vary according to circumstances. If I were in a hurry, I could get the steam up in five minutes; but the average time is about twenty min- Jtes in getting up our steam, and we do not consume more than a bushel. That is at first starting? That is at first starting. Do you apply a second carriage to your engine for passengers, or do you carry them in the same carriage? The boiler is placed behind the carriage; ;here is an engine-house between the boiler and the carriage; the engines are daced perpendicular between the passengers and the boiler, and the fore cart of the vehicle is for the passengers, so that all the machinery is quite oehind the carriage, and the fore part of the carriage entirely for the con¬ venience of passengers. Where does the guide sit? In the front, the same exactly as a coachman , n a common stage. How many passengers have you carried? We carry ten; but I am making jrovision to carry fourteen. . What is the weight of your vehicle? I should imagine about three tons »nd a half. Have you ever weighed it? Not this carriage, but the carriage I had be¬ ere, the vehicle itself with the engines and boilers, weighed three tons. I consider the present carriage to weigh from three tons to three and half ons, with fuel and water. - Have you found the rate of tolls that have been charged at the turn- oike gates very high? tOn the city road toll, I have paid a shilling. I do not itnow whether it is according to proportion, for it was a thing that did not embrace my attention at that time; but the highest toll that I have paid is a shilling; but on the road that I run from Stratford to London they told me they would not take it; they would take it another day. What effect do you think your carriage has upon the road, in prôportion' with a carriage equally loaded with four horses? I think, myself, we should rather improve the roads by the operation of our engines, because a steam coach requires broad wheels, perfectly upright and flat on the oülside of the tire. What is the breadth of the tire? The tires of the present wheels are about three inches and a half. What is the diameter of the hind wheels? Four feet. That is not a pro¬ portion that I consider to be working as a profitable diameter; I consider that the diameter that should be used for a steam coach is at least five feet. How wide could you make that tire without losing power? It depends on the weight; but taking the common coaehes, I should say from six to eight inches. Without injuring the power? I have no doubt it would be no drawback on the power. , 38 [ Doc. No. 101. ] Do you consider that such breadth would be as good as any other, the best you could make? Yes; because a broad wheel on gravel is considered to be a great advantage; it is a great disadvantage on a road which is between wet and dry; but in those cases we have always an overplus of power blowing off at the safety-valve, and, from that circumstance, I am rather pleased'at having rather a dead road to run upon, because we are obliged to construct the ve¬ hicle so as to overcome all obstacles in the road, such as dead gravel, &c. To how many of your wheels do you apply your power? To two; occa¬ sionally one. Do you apply it to a crank? The axletree of the present carriage is made precisely the same as the common axles now in use, straight and merely bent at the end, and I have a chain which I put on the nave of the wheel, and that communicates with a corresponding chain wheel on the crank shaft of the engines. What is the size of the circle on the wheel to which you apply your chain? About ten inches. How wide is the corresponding circle on the crank shaft? The corres¬ ponding pully of the shaft is just the same; so that the power of the engine is the same exactly as though it were applied to the wheel itself. You have two wheels; how do you move the first wheel? There are two engines working on two cranks, exactly on the same principle as used in common for steam coaches. I take the chains; I place the engine four feet from the axletree of the hind wheels, and the communication of the chain is to allow me to put my work on the springs; and the play of the carriage up and down is accommodated by the chain. Is your cylinder on springs? Yes, every thing on springs. Do you make use of one or two cylinders? Two. What size? Twelve inches in the stroke, and nine inches in the bore. Has your engine met with accidents? No, except once I broke my chain; but in the course of five minutes we could replace that chain, by taking an extra chain with us. Are your boilers easily cleaned? In all the experience I have had with the working of boilers, 1 have found that they never require cleaning. I con¬ sider that the ebullition is so rapid, and the action of water so violent, tha it will not allow any dirt to fix. How long do you calculate one of your boilers would last? It depends up¬ on the thickness of metal. The boiler we use I consider will last, in loco¬ motive engines, from a twelvemonth to two years. What is the thickness of the iron that you use? I should suppose about the eighth of an inch thick. Of what material are they composed? Of the best charcoal iron. What is the appearance of your carriage; has it an unsightly appearance? I think my present carriage is any way from being handsome, because it has been built entirely for experiments. Does the chimney rise above the carriage? No, you cannot see the chim¬ ney. When steam is let off, where is it let ofi? You can see nothing of it. Then there can arise no annoyance either from smoke or from waste steam? None at all. Do you find that horses are frightened by your carriage? I think I may say safely, that not one horse in a thousand will take the least notice of it; [ Doc. No. 101. ] 39 occasionally a horse may shy at it. I have seen fine blood-horses come along and shy at a wheelbarrow lying in the road, and not shy at my engine. There is one very curious instance which I had once occurred, and I was obliged to the gentleman for the pains he had taken. He had a fine horse on the road and this horse shyed: he was determined to get over the difficulty, if it were possible; and to make him acquainted with it, he came with the engine to town; and at last,- when we got to London, the horse got quite tranquil, so that he put his head in the engine-house, which is very uncommon, and which is a thing I never saw a horse do before. Then you anticipate that if such engines become more common, there will be less difficulty in this respect? I have no doubt of it. Does it produce any very extraordinary noise in its motion? We have worked so quietly latterly, that I have almost run over people on the road, and they have not heard me. I have had to halt very often: they have not been aware of the coach coming. Under any circumstances, the noise that is anticipated would take place from the defect of the machinery, and not from the machinary itself? Yes; we make one-third of the noise of a common stage. When you let off steam, does it produce any violent noise in stopping? I can give an instance to the contrary which occurred in London, which is the best place to put the thing to a test. About a fortnight or three weeks ago, Mr. Wilks was kind enough to mention my running on the Stratford road, and I wished him to present a petition from me to the House of Commons, and at the same time requested that he would take a ride with me in my engine on the Stratford road. I waited three quarters of an hour for him, and the machinery was working the whole of the time; there were hundreds of peo¬ ple walking round it, and I suppose they did not know it was working at all; there was no noise at all in the machinery ; and you could not, unless you had gone to the back, known that it was working. Does spare steam pass off without noise? Not any. Supposing that you were going at full work, and that you had occasion to stop for a passenger, you would be obliged to letoffsteam? Yes; but know¬ ing from experience how to obviate a disadvantage of this kind, which of course practice alone has brought to bear, it is probable that a stranger would hardly know it, it is so quiet. In what part would it be thrown off? It is divided and thrown off from the fire in every direction, and it is instantly consumed; the force is spent. Is not that rather a dangerous experiment to throw a great body of steam upon a confined fire? No, we have never found any disadvantage from it. In no circumstances in which the engine may be at work, have you to let off steam in a way to create a noise? No, the boiler will not hold any quan¬ tity of steam; we let off steam from the safety-valve as fast as we make it; there is no capacity for accumulation; the fault of many of the boilers is, that if any accident happens there is a complete explosion. Then, of course, the danger is lessened? Yes, to construct a boiler of that kind has been my object, so that the stpam may be let off. Suppose if one of your boilers were to burst, what would happen? I will give the committee an instance. I was travelling about nine miles an hour at the time the boiler was the twenty-fourth part of an inch thick. I was workingthen at 100 lbs.jon the square inch, with 13 persons on the present vehicle that I have now inttee; and all of a sudden the carriage stopped, and for what reason I was at a loss to know. I got from my stage seat and went 40 [ Doc. No. 101. ]] to the engineer to ask him what was the reason he had stopped the steam; he told me he had not stopped the carriage, and he immediately applied his hand to the guage cocks. I found there was neither steam nor water in the boiler. I immediately knew that the boiler was burst; they said they did not know it, as they heard no noise, and I told them that I did not mean they should know it. I said I would show them that it was so, and I took the boiler from the carriage and unscrewed it, and there were four large holes that I could put my hand into. This occurred from the chambers being too thin, and they drove all the water out of the boiler, and yet there was no injury to any per¬ son; there was not one person that heard any report; there was no steam, and there were no symptoms in any way that the machine itself had burst. Do your boilers extend under the place where passengers sit? No, quite at the back. What is the length of the carriage? About 16 feet, and the room the boil¬ ers occupy is about three feet. Are the chambers of the boiler placed upright side by side? They are placed sideways. In what circle could you turn your carriage? The circle of the inner wheels would bç four feet, and the outer wheel would exceed that by the breadth between the wheels: .taking the average it would be ten feet. Supposing you wanted to turn round, what should you do? If I got into any difficulty, and wished to go back, by applying my hand to the lever I should reverse the motions and run the reverse way. Supposing that you are travelling in a street of ten feet wide, and that there was another street of ten feet wide branching off at right angles with the first street, would there beiany difficulty in turning into it? Not any; but I could not turn round in thatVjstreet. In that case, I should back the engine. Would you check your speed? That would depend upon the speed I was going at. If I was going at six miles an hour, it is probable that I should not check the speed; but if I were going ten miles, it is probable that I should before I turned round into the street. ■ Are your fore-wheels and hind-wheels the same diameter? The fore- wheels are three feet three, and the hind wheels are four feet. Can you reverse the action of your carriage with great ease? Yes; by sim¬ ply pulling a lever: it is done momentarily. In my present carriage I could not; but I have an arrangement of that kind in the other carriage which I am making. Supposing you were going at the rate of eight miles an hour, and that you wished to stop suddenly, in what number of feet could you stop your car¬ riage? I will say twelve feet. üf course there is equal facility in avoiding any particular object on the road? Yes. In stopping so suddenly, would there not be a danger of your being thrown off? No, I think not Have you ever done it? Yes, I think I have. Supposing you wanted to stop in the quickest possible way, at what dis¬ tance could you stop at that rate of speed? About four feet, I should think, by backing the engines, because it is like putting a block to the wheel. Would there be no danger in that? No, I think not; it would throw a strain on the engines; the rate ofeight miles an hour is not so great; it is only in extreme ¿ases that that would be done. I aiñ very frequently obliged to pull up very short, from children running in the road. [ Doc. No. 101. "I 41 Of what materials arc jour wheels made? Like common dished wheels, they ought to be perfectly cylindycal. I merely took them to avoid expense; thejr were wheels which I had by me. Are you proprietor of any other coaches? No. Have you any means of ascertaining the proportion of friction that there • son your wheels, and those drawn by horses? No; I have never gone in¬ to experiments to any extent upon that point. Are your wheels shod frequently? No, I have never had occasion to have the wheels shod; they were not worn out. For what number of miles could you run without being obliged to shoe your wheels? I do not know. Do jTou find any difference of wear between jTour propelling wheels and your drawing wheels? No, except in relation to the weight on the hind wheels. We throw more weight in order to produce friction, to get adhe¬ sion to the ground. Have you any scheme of tojls to produce to the committee, which you think would be equitable to lay on steam carriages for the use of the road? I have considered the thing a great deal, and, after taking every thing into consideration, the weight of the engine and the weight of the boiler, and so OR, on the one hand, 1 think it is much upon a par with the weight of the horses,'and the weight of the coach, and the weight of the passengers, on the other. What would you consider the most equitable mode of charging steam car¬ riages? I think there can be no better mode than charging them as other coaches are charged. Supposing that a common conch at present takes eighteen persons, and you, by improvement of your coaches, could take tliirty-six persons, how would you apportion the rate of tolls that you ought to pay? In that case, 1 think the fairest way would be to have it in proportion to the number of per¬ sons that are carried. Do you think it should be charged by weight? That, perhaps, would be as fair a way as any of charging the toll. Charging the weight of your engine as compared with the weight of com¬ mon coaches? Yes. Have you turned your attention to the improvement of your machine, by affixing a carriage to it, and making your engine independent of the carnage? Yes; I have considered the thing well in every point, and I think it is much- better to construct the carriage both for passengers and macninery on one arrangement, not to have the thing divided: mj- reason for considering it an improvement is this; for instance, if a new road is made, the object of the proprietors ofthat road is to get as heavj' a roller as they can, even if it requires eight horses to draw the roller They do that in order to imbed the gravel to make it solid; and the nearer that steam coach approaches that roller, the better it is for the propelling wheels. With respect to the tolls, are you satisfied with the present tolls you pay? " I think they are exhorbitant: from Islington to the city road they charge me a shilling. Are you aware what four-horse coaches, with eighteen passengers, pay on the same road? I am not aware. From what cause do you judge it excessive? From the short distance which I come. I do not know'what length of road I should have had to run before I should have been subject to another toll. 6 42 [ Doc. No. 101. ] Have you considered the subject whether it would be more equitable to charge the steam carriages by horse-power or by weight, or by the number of passengers? I think the fairest way wofild be in proportion to the num¬ ber of persons they carried, or in proportion to the weight. What would you give as the basis of your calculation, considering that the number of persons which the different coaches carry varies from eight to eighteen? I see no other way, excepting that of the number of passengers, or according to the weight. Have you made any calculation as to the number ofhorses that the exten¬ sion of these carriages will displace with respect to each stage; what horse power is equivalent to the carriage that you run? I take a stage to run 100 miles a day, and I reckon upon the average it would take from from 48 to 50 horses for the whole distance; the common average is a horse a mile; but from the information I have endeavored to get, from what 1 have gathered, I find it about 48 or 50. I believe it is to be taken backwards and forwards at a horse a mile. Would your carriage displace along the rtiad four horses on each stage? Two ten-horse engines would displace the whole number of horses along the stage. Have you made experiments which enable you to answer these questions? I was not at all prepared; my principal object has been to ascertain what pow¬ er I have to do a certain work. I have paid very little attention to horse power. Do 3rou think that your carriage is equivalent to a four-horse carriage on the road, in the number of persons it would draw? It is more than equiva¬ lent to it, from the circumstance ofits being able to do more work. Supposing you have to run seven miles, how many passengers could you carry at your present speed? Fourteen. Supposing that a coach of four horses were to run that seven miles, how many passengers would it take? It would carry the same number. What weight, upon a dead level, will set your carriage in motion on the road if you were to attach a rope to the pole, and suspend that rope over a pulley, and attach a weight to it, what weight will set your carriage in mo¬ tion? It is an experiment I never tried, and I am not prepared to answer. Do you know what, if you were to set your carriage on an inclined plane, is the inclination that will set it moving? No, that is not a thing which I have tried. Do all the wheels follow in the same track? Yes, they do. Have you ever tried your carriage up hill on an inclination? Yes, I have, repeatedly. Do you find an increased difficulty in proportion to the length of the in¬ clination? No, we go much slower; but we never find any difficulty. Have you ever found your wheels slip? No, excepting once on the city road, at the time when the frost was on the road; it was quite slippery; and then, for an experiment, I tried to see if I could run up the Pentonville Hill with one wheel only; and I did, but it was with some difficulty towards the top. If I had propelled by the two wheels, there would have been none. Have you found at what inclination in a frost the wheels will begin to turn? I never witnessed such a thing. Are you aware that such a thing will occur? Yes; but I think there are no hills which are to be found, upon which horses travel, but what a coach would propel itself up. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 43 Have you ever seen your carriage get into a deep rut? Yes. In such a case what generally happens? If it is a single wheel, it may go round two or three times; if I have two wheels, it is improbable I should get into such a situation. Do you find peculiar states of the roads upon which you travel, more dis¬ advantageous than others to the progress of your carriage? Yes. Which do you find the most disadvantageous? When the roads are be¬ tween wet and dry. In going down a hill, are you obliged to lock your wheel in any way? Yes, if it is much down hill; it depends upon its inclination. What is the nature of the provision for locking the wheel? A metallic band, bearing upon the outer part of the wheel. What are the fares that you take, higher or lower than ordinary stages? They are the same fares as the stages fares; eight-pence from Bow, and nine- pence from Stratford. How much is that a mile? Barely two-pence a mile. In what proportion to what is charged by stage coaches do you think you should be able to charge your fares? I think the fares would be reduced to tw'o-thirds, after a short time, if supported and not overburdened by tolls. Should you be able to continue running if the fares were reduced to two- thirds? Yes. In your present state of knowledge upon this subject, in what propor¬ tion do you think the rate of travelling would be diminished? In the pro¬ portion I have stated of two-thirds. Is it your opinion, that, generally speaking, it would be reduced two-thirds? Not in the outset, but after the thing has had full play. Have you made any calculation of the expense of running a coach drawn by four horses, carrying a certain number of passengers, and that of running with one of your carriages at the same velocity? I have endeavored several times, but I have never been able to get an accurate account of the power and other expenses incurred in driving a long stage; but I reckon my own expen¬ ses will cost from three to four pounds a day, including all expenses at¬ tached to the coach, wages for engineer, steersman, fuel, oil, &c. What expense is it a mile upon your coach? I have taken the one hun¬ dred miles, and included the day's expenses. Were you ever a stage proprietor yourself? No. Then from your own knowledge you can state nothing as to the cost at carrying passengers by a stage coach? No. Could you, if you were to travel one hundred miles in ten hours, keep up that rate without damage to the machine? Yes, I reckon the work would be done in eight hours, but the stoppages and one thing and another will take up two hours. Mercurii, 100 die Augustin 1831. John Farey, esquire, called in; and examined. Have the goodness to state your profession? I am an engineer. How long have you been so? It is twenty five years since I began my studies; I have been much employed by inventors to assist them in bringing forward nçw inventions of a mechanical nature, and in establishing them as practical businesses, when they have been sufficiently perfect to admit of so doing. 44 [ Boc. No. 101. ] Have you turned your attention to the subject of propelling stage coaches or other carriages, by steam power on common roads, instead of by horses? I have had occasion to prepare specifications of several such inventio ns for which patents have been taken out, and have in consequence paid a close at¬ tention to that subject. I have also been consulted to settle the plans for the practical execution of steam coaches, but I have not directed or superintend¬ ed any such execution myself. Of the specifications I have prepared, three have been followed up by building coaches, which have actually travelled on common roads; viz. Mr. Gurney's, Mr. Hancock's, and Messrs. Heaton's. I believe those three are the only trials amongst many others which have had so much success as to have been persisted in to the present time. I have ex¬ amined other steam coaches, but they had no chance of success, and have been abandoned. Will you state, generally, your opinion as to the probability of this mode of propelling carriages superseding the necessity of using horses? All that has been hitherto done, or which is now doing, in that way, must, I think, be considered as experimental trials. I have no doubt whatever but that a stea¬ dy perseverance in such trials will lead to the general adoption of steam coach¬ es, and that, at an earlier or later period, according to the activity and intelli¬ gence with which an experimental course is conducted; and I am firmly con¬ vinced that the perfection which is essential to their successful adoption will never be attained by any other course than that of reiterated trials. The difficulties with which the steam coach inventors are at present contending, are chiefly of a practical nature, which, I think, are not likely to be avoided by any great efforts of genius or invention; but I expect that they may be surmounted one after another by the experience which may be gained by competent mechanicians in a course of practice. I do not look for much more invention as necessary to the establishment of steam coaches; but it is certain that the practice is indispensable. Each of the three inventors I have named has brought his steam coach to that state which renders it a full-sized model for making such experiments as serve to prove the principle of action, and to teach how a better coach may be made the next time, but nothing more. The probability that such next better coach will be sufficiently perfect to answer as a trading business, depends as much upon the natural judgment and acquired skill of each inventor, as upon the qualifications of his present pro¬ duction. Has the experience which has already been had of steam carriages been such as to enable us to say that it is not merely in theory we have calculated on these carriages? Yes; what has been done bythe abovementioned inven¬ tors, proves to my satisfaction the practicability of impelling stage coaches by steam on good common roads, intolerable level parts of the country, without horses, at a speed of eight or ten miles an hour. The steam coacffi es I have tried, have made very good progress along the road, but have been'very deficient in strength, and consequently in permanency of keep¬ ing in repair, also in accommodation for passengers and for luggage; for which reasons they are none of them models to proceed upon to build coa-ch- es as matter of business. From the complexity of their structures and the multiplicity of pieces of which they are composed, it is impracticable to give them the requisite strength by mere addition of materials, because they would then be too heavy to carry profitable loads as stage coaches. I do not consider that it is now a question of theory, for the practicability I conceive to be proved; but many details of execution, which are necessary to [ Doc. No. 101. J 45 a successful practice, are yet in a very imperfect state. My view of the subject will be best understood by stating, that I believe an efficient steam carriage might now be made merely to carry despatches, by following the general plan of the best steam coach which has yet been produced, improv¬ ing the proportions wherever experience has shown them to be faulty, using the very best workmanship and materials, and giving a judicious increase of strength to the various parts which require it, allowing all the weight of a load of passengers and luggage, and of the accommodations for them, in ad¬ ditional strength of materials, so that the total weight of the coach, without any passengers or goods (beyond the people and stores necessary for its own use and one courier,) should be as much as the weight of the previous model containing a full load of passengers and luggage. If three such coaches were constructed, one of them might start every morning at each end of aey fair line of road 100 or 120 miles long, and one would arrive every evening at each end of that line in less time than a common stage coach; and I should expect that, after twelve months' perseverance, and after making all the im¬ provements and alterations in the machinery which so much experience would suggest, the double passage ought to be made with as much safety and punctuality, and with much more expedition, than by the mail. The road between London and Bristol might be taken as a suitable line, but I should expect a pair of horses to be provided at every notable hill, to help the steam carriage up it. Such a proposition, it is obvious, olfers no inducement to individuals, because it would be all expense without any return; but if it were judiciously done at public expense, I have no doubt but that it would lead to as much improvement in the mode of execution of future coaches as would enable them to be run permanently as stage coaches with profitable loads. The great defect of all the present models, is' want of strength to re¬ sist the violence to which they are subjected in rapid travelling with a full load; and if that strength were given upon the present construction by the mere addition of materials, they would become too heavy to be efficiently propelled, even if they carried no load in them. Have you seen the last coaches of Mr. Gurney and of Mr. Hancock? I have not minutely examined the last addition of Mr. Gurney's carriage, but have met it several times on the roads in my neighborhood, as I have also that of Mr. Hancock; and I have travelled in the latter; but he has enlarged the cylinders of his engine since I have gone in it. You have seen Mr. Gurney's original boilers; he states that he has altered very little in the.form of them? Yes; I was well acquainted with the con¬ struction and performance of all that Mr. Gurney had attained at the time when I specified his patent, three years ago; and I understand generally the alterations he has since made, though I have not made trial of any of his more recent coaches; the principal change is in separating the engine and machi¬ nery from the carriage which is to convey the passengers, so that there are two four-wheeled carriages, one drawing the other after it. This change in¬ volves no very great alteration in the machinery, which I understand, is nearly the same as it was; but the impelling carriage in which it is placed is very much lightened by transferring all the passengers to the additional car¬ riage which is drawn. Mr. Hancock continues to follow the original plan of carrying the passengers in the same four-wheeled carriage with the en- gine. As far as your experience has gone, which plan of steam carriage do you think will hereafter be most generally resorted to, that of an engine carriage 46 [ Doc. No. 101. ] drawing after it another carriage containing the passengers, or of conveying the passengers in the carriage in which the machinery is placed? I have not had experience in drawing by two carriages, except by the analogy of what is done on railways, and hence I feel some difficulty in speaking positively upon that point. There are advantages ami disadvantages to be considered in both modes, but all the mechánical considerations incline to one side, viz. to place the engines in^the same carriage with the passengers. That plan will eertainly be lighter than when two separate carriages are used, and also the weight will be laid on those wheels which are turned by the engines, as it should be, to give them a firmer adherence to the road; also one carriage will steer and turn much better than two, and will go safer down hill, and will be cheaper to build and to work. By that means great weight is saved? Yes; perhaps one-third is saved in exerting an equal power. In stating my opinion of the probability of a pro¬ fitable result, after twelve months' trial of three coaches to run regularly two hundred miles every day, with despatches only, I contemplated that the en¬ gines and passengerswould be ultimately inonecarriage, becausethatplan has a most decided mechanical advantage in making progress along the road, and also in facility of steerage, and safety in going down hill, and fewer servants are re¬ quired to manage one carriage than two. On the other hand, all the constructions that have yet been tried with one carriage, subject the passengers to more or less occasional annoyance from heat and noise, smoke and dust, and there is still an apprehension of danger from the boiler: hence passengers will inva¬ riably prefer to go in a separate carriage to be drawn by the engine-carriage; that mode also offers a facility of changing the engine for another, or for post horses, in case it gets deranged, because the change may be made without unloading, and discomposing the passengers. For common stage coaches these are strong motives to use a separate carriage, and if it can be brought to bear in comparison with horses, that mode will probably be most generally adopt¬ ed by the influence of the passengers, although the other mode will inevita¬ bly perform the best and attain the greatest speed of travelling. Taking the two machines of Mr. Gurney and Mr. Hancock in their pre¬ sent state, do you think them entirely free from defects likely to prove dan¬ gerous to travellers? I do not think the danger is at all considerable in either Mr. Gurney's or Mr. Hancock's: there are dangers in all travelling; but I do not think the amount of danger will be at all increased by substitu¬ ting steam for horses, according to either of those plans. The question refers to the peculiar danger from the nature of the propell¬ ing power? I am not inclined to think that there is any peculiar danger which would be incurred by the change; and if the engines and passengers are not on the same carriage, I think the ordinary danger would, on the whole, be diminished. The question is with reference to the relative danger of travelling ten miles an hour when drawn by horses, and when propelled by steam at the same rate? The danger of being run away with and overturned is greatly dimin¬ ished in a steam coach. It is very difficult to control four such horses as can draw a heavy stage coach ten miles an hour in case they are frightened, or choose to run away, and for such quick travelling they must be kept in that state of courage that they are always inclined for running away, particular¬ ly down hill, and at sharp turns in the road. The steam power has "very little corresponding danger, being perfectly controllable, and capable of ex¬ erting its power in reverse, to retard in going down hill; it must be careless- [ Doc. No. Í01. 3 47 ness that would occasion the overturning of a steam carriage, which carries the passengers in the same carriage with the engines. The distinct carriage I consider to be much less controllable in turning corners and going down hill, but yet far more so than horses. The chance of breaking down has hitjierto been considerable, but it will not be more than usual in stage coach¬ es when the work is truly proportioned and properly executed. The risk of explosion of the boilers is the only new cause of danger, and that I consi¬ der not equivalent to the danger from the horses. There have been, for several years past, a number of locomotive engines in constant use on rail¬ ways, all of them having large high pressure boilers, very much more dan¬ gerous than Mr. Gurney's or Mr. Hancock's, whether we consider the pro¬ bability of explosion, or the consequence likely to follow an explosion, be¬ cause, being of large diameters, theytare less capable of sustaining the inter¬ nal pressure of the steam; and also they contain a large stock of confined steam and hot water. The instances of explosion among those locomotive engines have been very rare indeed. Have you seen Mr. Hancock's last improvement? Yes; I consider Mr. Hancock's boiler to be much better for steam coaches than any other which has been proposed or tried. If that boiler were to explode it is understood that there would be no dan¬ ger at all? It is very difficult to foresee that; at the same time, the risk of explosion in'Mr. Hancock's boiler is certainly very much less than in the locomotive boilers which are in constant use on a large scale on railways, and where we have proof that the extent of the danger is very small. Do you think his boiler might explode without the passengers knowing anything about it? The metal plates of which the boiler is composed will burn through by the continuance of the action of the fire, and may crack or open so as to let the steam or water out of the boiler and disable the coach from proceeding, but that is hardly to be called an explosion; no one would be hurt. The crack which lets out the hot water is sure to throw it into the fire in that case, and not on the passengers. You consider the danger to passengers by the chance of bursting of a boil¬ er as not eauivalent to the danger of horses running away? It is not equiva¬ lent, in my opinion; the probability of a coach being overturned by the horses ss far greater than that of a boiler bursting, and when either accident does occur, the probable extent of mischief from an overturn in which all the the passengers must participate, is much greater than could be expected from the bursting of a boiler, which must always be kept at a considerable dis¬ tance from the passengers on account of the heat. Supposing either Mr. Hancock's or Mr. Gurney's boiler were to burst; in the one case the boiler being in a separate carriage, and in the other, the boil¬ er being at, considerable distance behind the passengers, what danger do you think could arise to the passengers from the bursting of the boiler? There is very little difference between the two cases; the separate carriage obviates any apprehension that passengers could entertain from the danger of explo¬ sion, and will therefore be preferred by most passengers, but for myself I do not rate that risk so high as to be induced to encounter the complexity of the two carriages, and to forego some of that new security which steam power offers by its controllability in descending hills and turning corners, compared with horses; and which circumstance, as I have before stated, I think the plan of one carriage is much to be preferred, and probably the other objec¬ tions of heat and noise and dust may be overcome by some new means, 48 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 which have not yet been shown. In Mr. Hancock's carriage the boiler is , quite behind, and away from the passengers, so that they are out of dan¬ ger, if there is any, and are not materially annoyed by heat or smoke and dust, except at limes when the wind brings it forward, and that rarely hap¬ pens when the coach is moving. Is not the danger attendant on the bursting the boiler greatly diminished by the subdivision of its internal capacity into tubes or small and flattened chambers? Unquestionably, until the danger of explosion has become ex¬ ceedingly small; but the great difficulty of boilers for steam coaches is, that the liability to burn through the plates has been increased by that expedient for ensuring safety ; and the progress of the invention has been impeded be¬ tween those two difficulties in a greater degree than from any other circum¬ stance. It was a desideratum fora long time to contrive a boiler, which, be¬ ing made of such thin metal as would not render it too heavy, should have sufficient strength to retain high pressure steam without danger of bursting; also that it should expose a sufficient external surface of metal to the fii'e and flame, and of internal surface to the contained water, to enable the required quantity of steam to be produced from such a small body of water as could be carried on account of the weight: both these conditions were fulfilled by subdividing the contained water into small tubes or into flat chambers, which expose a great surface in proportion to their internal capacity, and admit of being made strong with thin metal; but there is also another condition which is rather incompatible with the two former, viz. that there shall be such a very free communication between the interior capacities of all the tubes or narrow spaces, as will combine them all into one capacity, and permit the contained water to run from one to another, and also permit the steam, which is generated in innumerable small bubbles within the narrow spaces, to get freely away from them, to goto the engines without accumulating and col¬ lecting into such large bubbles as would occupy the spaces and displace or drive out the water before them; for, if that effect takes place, it produces three great evils; the water boils over into the engines along with the steam, and is wasted, and the thin metal which remains exposed at the outside to the fire, becomes burning hot in an instant, after the water is so driven away from the internal surface, and the further production of steam is suspended, so long as the water continues absent. If such displacement of the water takes place frequently, and in many of the narrow spaces at once, the boiler will not produce its proper quantity of steam, and the thin metal will soon be destroyed by the fire and burned through. Have you seen Mr. Hancock's boiler? Yes; I have had many trials of it; and I am well acquainted with Mr. Gurney's. The former uses flat chambers of thin iron plate standing edgeways upwards over the fire in parallel vertical planes; the latter uses small tubes (such as gun barrels are made of,) to contain the water, the fire being applied on the outsides of the tubes. In Mr. Gurney's boiler I think the subdivision of the water into small spaces is carried too far, because the steam cannot get freely away, out of such small tubes as he uses (and they are also of great length) without displacing much of water which ought always to be contained within them. By an ingenious arrangement of connecting pipes and vessels which he called separators, he collects all the water which is so displaced along with the steam, and returns it again into the lower ends of the same tubes, and thus avoids the evil of water boilino- over into the engines; but thatmakes only a partial remedy for the diminish¬ ed production of steam, which is attendant on the absence of the water from [ Doc. No. 101. ] 49 the heated tubes, and the still greater mischief of burning and destroying the metal. Hence the evil of burning out the tubes is very great. Also his separators hold a considerable weight of water, from which no steam is generated; and they require to be heavy in metal, to render them quite safe and strong. Mr. Hancock has taken the middle course in subdividing the water in his boiler, having all that can be required for safety, and the weight I believe, on the whole, to be less than that of any other boiler which will produce the same power of steam; for, owing to the freedom with which the steam can get away in bubbles from the wrater, without carrying water with it, the surface of the heated metal is never left without water. Hence a greater effect of boiling is attained from a given surface of metal and body of contained water, and that with a much greater durability of the metal plates, than I think will ever be obtained with small tubes. Do you think there is a danger of such an explosion as could do injury from the mode in which Mr. Hancock's boilers are constructed? That danger I hold to be very slight; the metal of Air. Hancock's chambers will burn through in time, the same as that of Mr. Gurney's tubes will do, but not so soon. I think, taking the thickness of metal to be the same in both cases, no injury will be done by such burning through. The flat chambers in Mr. Hancock's boiler are very judiciously combined, and are secured against bursting by causing the pressure which tends to burst each one open, to be counteracted by the corresponding pressure of the neighboring chamber, and the outside chambers are secured by six bolts of prodigious strength, which pass through all the chambers, and unite them all together so firmly that I see no probabli- ty of an explosion. Air. Gurney's vessels, called separators, are secured by hoops round them, and, being of a small size, may be made very safe. Hence I think the two boilers may be put on a par as to their security; but there is a decided preference in my opinion of Mr. Hancock's form of subdividing the water and steam compartments, which I believe is carried too far in Air. Gurney's tubes whereby the water, included within the several tubes, cannot make way to allow the bubbles of steam to pass by it. This is owing to the great length and the small bore of the tubes; and they are so isolated one from another, that the water within them is not able to act as a common stock of water, or to keep all the interior surfaces of the metal tubes thoroughly sup¬ plied with water: thence, there is a deficient production of steam and an un¬ necessary destruction of metal. Are you aware that, in Mr. Hancock's carriage, the waste steam which is discharged from the engines after having performed its oifice, is thrown into the fireplace, and makes its escape upwards along with the flame, smoke and heated air, and gas, which ascend from the fire to act on the boiler?—That is the way in which he gets rid of the waste steam which the engines dis¬ charge, and I understand that he thereby avoids the puffing noise and ap¬ pearance of steam which is common with high-pressure engines. Air. Han¬ cock blows the fire with a current of air produced by a revolving fanner, which is turned rapidly round by the engines, and therefore he requires no tall chimney to produce a draft. Mr. Gurney formerly used a singular fan¬ ner to blow the fire, and also a chimney of some height; but I understand he has lately laid it aside, and adopted the plan of carrying the waste steam which has passed through the engines into the bottom of the upright chim¬ ney, and there discharging that steam through a contracted orifice in a ver¬ tical jet, which, by rising upwards with great velocity in the centre of the chimney tube, gives a vast increase to the draft of heated air and smoke in 7 o [ Doc. No. 101. ] the chimney tube, without any great height being necessary; and this plan occasions a most active current of fresh air to pass up through the fire, and urge the combustion. This isa most important improvement in locomotive engines, which has been introduced by Mr. Stephenson into his engines on the Liverpool and Manchester railway, and being there combined with an improved boiler, it has been one of the great causes of the brilliant success of that undertaking. I believe the same plan will be indispensable to the com¬ plete success of steam carriages; for chimneys cannot be used high enough to obtain a draft, and blowing the fire is a very troublesome affair. I fear Mr. Stephenson's plan would occasion more noise than is allowable on com¬ mon roads; but that may perhaps be avoided or diminished by some new ex¬ pedient. Do you think any danger would arise from the waste steam being dis¬ charged over a large mass of fire on Mr. Hancock's plan? Not the least danger; all the waste steam which blows off at the safety-valve, and which the engines do not require, is got rid of in the same way; but 1 expect Mr. Hancock does not help the combustion of the fuel by thus mixing the waste M earn with the flame before it acts against the boiler. Mr. Stephenson's : mprovement, which Mr. Gurney has adopted, is to discharge all the waste .-team into the bottom of the upright chimney with a violent vertiaal jet, in < rder to accelerate the draft up the chimney. The waste steam, therefore, is mixed with the smoke and gas, after the smoke had ceased to act on the boiler. The waste steam was very commonly discharged into the bottom of the chimney, in Trevethick's high pressure engines, many years ago, in order to mix with the smoke ascending in the chimney, and thus get rid of the waste steam; it improved the draft in that way, by rendering the smoke more buoyant, but only in a slight degree; but the waste steam was not dis¬ charged through a contracted orifice to give it velocity, nor was it directed upwards as is now done by Mr. Stephenson, and that vertical jet of steam in the centre of the chimney, gives such an intensity of draft through the fire as was never procured before, and, with the further advantage, that the rapidity of draft so produced, increases whenever the engines work faster, and discharge more steam, just in proportion as the demand for fire and steam increases by that working faster. Is there any noise occasioned in that way ?—Yes; but the sound is direct¬ ed upwards by the chimney, and is not much heard in the locomotive en¬ gines on the railway when they are in the open air, but when they pass un¬ der the bridges, the sound is reverberated down again by the arch, and then it sounds very loud. The noiseis no great consequence there, andnoparticular pains have been taken to avoid it. The metal pipe of the chimney has something of the effect of an organ-pipe or trumpet, but it is probable the sound might be deadened. Will the burning out of the plates of Mr. Hancock's boiler, that you spoke of, be attended with risk of explosion of the whole boiler, or only of the smaller divisions of the boiler?—It will be attended with no violence which could be called an explosion, nor with any danger whatever, but only with the inconvenience of disabling the carriage until the ruptured chamber is re¬ placed by another. The rupture or crack of the metal plate at the burned place, would let out the water and steam very gradually into the fire, and probably extinguish it. All steam boilers burn out in that manner sooner or later. The different chambers of Mr. Hancock's boiler are kept together by six very strong bolts, which pass through them all, and which are f Doc. No. 101. ] 51 quite protected from the action of the fire; to burst the boiler those bolts must give way altogether, and there is no adequate force to produce any such effect. Are you acquainted with the construction of the new steam carriage which started this week from Gloucester to Cheltenham?—I am not, further than that is on Mr. Gurney's plan. Apprehension has been felt that these steam coaches will be found to give great annoyance to travellers passing them on the public roads, from smoke and the peculiar noise from letting off the steam; do you apprehend such re¬ sults will take place?—I do not anticipate any great annoyance will result to travellers in other carriages. I have passed Mr. Hancock's on the road several times and Mr. Gurney's also, and have travelled in them often;horses take a little notice of them when in motion, but not much, and very soon become accustomed to them. I once met Mr. Hancock going very quick along the New road, and drew up to see him pass; I had no difficulty what¬ ever in making my pony stand, though rather a spirited one. Mr. Hancock did not observe me; and as I wished to go with him, I turned and drove af¬ ter him, and after a race to overtake him, I had no difficulty in drawing alongside of his steam carriage fora good way in order to speak to him, and get him to stop for me. The emission of hot air was very sensible, when following close alongside of the boiler at the hinder end of the carriage, but I did not observe any puffing of steam. Do you think that whatever annoyance exists in the present steam coach¬ es may be removed by the improvement of the carriage, and particularly the appearance of the carriage?—Certainly their appearance may be improv¬ ed; they are most unsightly now. The general question of farther im¬ provements in steam coaches depends upon the general mechanical skill and judgment of the mechanicians who turn their attention to the subject, and the peculiar experience they acquire in this particular branch of mechanics, by continually practising and exercising with steam carriages, on roads of all kinds in all weathers, to find out their defects, and how to remedy them; ind what is the best mode of management; also, by building new and better carriages as soon as they have learned what will be better than the present ones. But all this must be at a great pecuniary loss, and some further en¬ couragement must be held out in order to induce the more skilful mechani¬ cians to embark in such a pursuit; for, at present, it is by no means an object of attention to our best and most competent engineers, because they know they would only throw away their money and time by undertakiug steam coaches, even if they were to succeed ever so completely. The patentees are a different class of men; they are the inventors, who have first organized and arranged the combination of machinery which is to be used; and accor¬ ding to law, they have acquired a legal property in those peculiar combina¬ tions which they have discovered, that has been their encouragement and stimulus to exertion; but the terms of their patent rights will be very likely to expire before their inventions come into use to such an extent as will re¬ pay them their previous costs with any profit thereon; and also, with the present defective state of the law on the subject of patents, they will be un¬ usually lucky if they are able to make good their patents at law, in case their rights are contested. The patentees are not experienced mechanicians or engineers, and have had to learn the business of engine-making and of coach-making as they went on; and a great deal of the deficiency of the pre¬ sent steam coaches has arisen from the circumstance, that th ey have been 52 [ Doc. No. 201. ] made by persons who were not at that time qualified to execute either a com¬ mon coach or a common steam engine; but they have acquired more skill, now, and we may expect more finished productions from them in future. There is no mechanician, of the class of those who will be ultimately em¬ ployed to make the engines and machinery of steam coaches when they do come into use (and who alone can give that perfection of design, proportion and execution, which is essential to their coming into use,) who will have any thing to do with them now; not so much from any doubts that they would not be able to succeed in perfecting them, as from a conviction that the expense of attaining success would be greater than would be repaid by any advantage they could afterwards derive from making such machines, in open competition with every other mechanician who chose to copy after their model when perfected; for that perfection of design, proportion, and execution, in which steam coaches are now wanting, though very laborious and expensive of attainment, would not be grounds for exclusive privileges under the existing law of patents. The patents to the first inventors are the only ones which are professed to be recognised by law, though in effect they can scarcely ever be maintained at law. That is a very important point for the consideration of the committee, and one which deserves great attention. As the law of property in inventions now stands, when a new invention is advanced to such a stage that it may be considered to be tolerably perfect as an invention, no further exclusive privilege can be maintained to compensate for the skill, labor and expense, which must be incurred to find out true proportions, dimensions, weights and strength, which are essential to bring it to bear as a practical business. The law professes to give the whole to the first inventor, although he may have only laid the foundation on which another has raised the superstructure;and if, as usually happens, the claim of the first inventor is setaside, from technical informali¬ ty in his title-deeds, and also when his term expires, the whole superstruc¬ ture lapses, to the public. For these reasons, those who are the most com¬ petent to the task of giving the finishing touches of practical utility to great inventions, are kept back by being aware that they shall not be repaid. Under such circumstances, a defect of judgment would be proved a priori against any one who might commence such an unpromising pursuit, and that want of judgment which could permit a man to overlook the pecuniary considerations, would not be favorable to his success as a mechanician, in giving that precision of form and dimensions, and that practical utility, to an invention which requires an exercise of the cool judgment resulting from experience, rather than of the genius depending upon original thought. You do not consider the inconveniences of the present steam coaches to be inseparable from the invention? Certainly not; but I do not think that any of the individuals at present engaged in the pursuit are the most compe¬ tent persons who could be chosen to overcome the remaining difficulties, being inventors, who have almost completed their parts of the task, and not. experienced practical engineers, into whose hands the affair of building the next steam coaehes ought now to pass, under the general direction and ad¬ vice of those inventors. If the building of steam coaches is continued in their hands, they will only advance towards perfection of proportion and execution by slow degrees, as the patentees acquire that general skill as en¬ gineers and mechanists which is already possessed by professional engineers. You think that the machinery may be improved by better machanists? I have not the least doubt of it; and yet those mechanists are not the proper [ Doc. No. 101. 3 53 men of genius to have invented what lias been hitherto done by the patentees. Apprehensions have been felt by trustees and surveyors of roads that steam carriages are more injurious to roads than carriages ot equal weights drawn by horses; what is your opinion upon that point? I should not ap¬ prehend that the present coaches are injurious in a greater degree than other carriages of equal weights; and when steam coaches are really brought to bear, I think they will be much less so than any carriage at present in use taking horses and the carriage they draw against engines and the carriage they impel, at weight for weight. All my observation upon steam carriages has led me to believe that they do no particular harm to the road. I could never perceive any peculiar marks that they left in their tracks, and, an ex¬ amination of the iron tire on the edges of the wheels of Mr. Hancock's car¬ riage, shows evidently that no slipping takes place on the surface of the road; and that fact is proved to a certainty by other observations on the working of that carriage. It will be a long time before a sufficient number of steam carriages travel over any road to bring their effect on the materials to the test of experience; but, on general principles, I have no hesitation whatever in stating my opinion that they never will answer as long as they do injure the roads any more than the fair wear occasioned by the wheels of other carriages of the same weight; for any injury they might do to the road must be by slipping of their wheels on the road, which would be a waste of the power of their engines, and hitherto they have had no power to spare; or, if their wheels are too narrow, and they cut deep into the road, the power of the engines will be wasted. If they are to be efficiently ad¬ vanced, the whole power must be fairly exerted in advancing them fortvards along the road, without turning their wheels in vain on the road, or cut. ting ruts in the road. I am confident that, if the wheels slip at all on the the roads so as to lose motion, or if they penetrate so as to make ruts, those coaches will not answer, and the defects must be remedied, or the coaches must be given up. I do not mean to affirm whether the present steam coaches which draw other carriages after them do or do not slip on the road, because I have not examined them; but I am of opinion that, for the ulti¬ mate successful application of steam power, the carriages must be so con¬ structed that they will do less injury to the roads than carriages drawn by horses; and whenever steam coaches become common, I think the roads will be most materially benefitted by the change. Supposing the total weight of a stage or mail coach, drawn by four horses at ten miles an hour, to be two tons, and the weight of the four horses to be two tons, what proportion of the wear of a Macadam road would you ex¬ pect to be occasioned by the wheels of the coach, supposing them to be the usual breadth of stage coach wheels, and what would be the wear by the horses' feet? It is impossible to fix an accurate proportion for such a ques¬ tion as that; but I have no doubt but that, weight for weight, horses' feet do far more injury to a road than the wheels of a carriage, and particularly so at quick speeds, because wheels have a rolling action on the materials of the road, tending to consolidate, and the horses' feet have a scraping and digging action, tending to tear up the materials. One test of the wear by horses' feet will be in the wear of towing paths for canals, and the railway roads where horses are employed. In either of those cases, the number of horses which pass along is so small, that no turnpike roads afford any ex 54 [ Doc. No. 101. j ample of comparison, and yet the wear of towing and railway paths is found to be considerable. The rapid wear of horses'shoes is another test. It has been stated by a previous witness, that the proportion of the wear of a Macadam road, under such circumstances, would be about two thirds by the horses, and one-third by the carriage; should you think that a fair approximation to the truth? I have no means of judging with such pre¬ cision, but I have no doubt whatever that, in the case above supposed, the wear by the horses' feet would be much greater than the wear by the wheels; for, independently of the difference of the action, as before stated, the rapidity of the blows wherewith the horses strike down their feet, in stepping quickly, wears the road, and they keep their feet pressing on the same spot for a sensible time afterwards, which must have a far greater ef¬ fect on the materials, to wear and loosen them, than the comparatively pro¬ gressive rolling of the wheels over the road, because the latter remain only an imperceptibly short space of time on the same spot, and have a consolidat¬ ing action. May you take the wear of horses' shoes, in proportion to that of the tire of the wheels, as a fair test of the proportionate wear of the road by each? No, by no means; because the pressure which the wheels exert, and which wears away the tire, is, under certain conditions, very beneficial to the road; whereas the pressure occasioned by the horses'feet is in all cases pernicious. On a gravelled road, which is not yet consolidated, the rolling action which causes the wear of the tire of wheels produces a great improvement of the road, when the treading action, which causes an equal wear of horses'shoes, does nothing but mischief. The harder and more solid the road becomes, the less this may be apparent, because the wear of the road becomes so im¬ perceptible; nevertheless, I think the proportion of less wear by wheels than by horses' shoes, will still hold true. What is the average width of the tire of the wheels of steam carriages you have tried? Mr. Hancock's wheels are two inches and three inches broad; in Mr. Gurney's carriage, when he carried the load along with the engines, the wheels were two inches and a half broad; but I understand he has widened them since he h|s altered his system of drawing a separate carriage, which is to be expected as a ..necessary consequence of the altera¬ tion. Do you think the machine would act with less advantage if the wheels were wider? That depends entirely upon the weight resting upon the wheels, and the sort of roads they are to run upon. I think it would be better for those individual carriages to use broader wheels than they had. If the tire of Mr. Hancock's were six inches broad, would it be an advan¬ tage or a disadvantage? I think six inches would be too wide for that description of carriage; about four inches I should think a suitable width for his wheels. Mr. Hancock's carriage is so arranged, that a greater propor¬ tion of the whole weight of the carriage is thrown upon the hinder wheels, to one or both of which the power of the engines is applied, than upon the fore wheels: that I think is very judicious, because it ensures such an effectual adhesion of the hind wheels to the road, that no slipping can take place. The breadth of the wheels must be so proportioned to the pressure that they exert on the road, that they will not indent or press in, to leave deep marks behind them. The actual breadth that will be suitable to any given weight will depend upon the hardness of the materials of [ Doc. No. 101. ] 55 which the road is made, and roads differ very much in that respect. I think that in all cases the breadth of wheels which will enable the carriage to make the best progress, will be that which will do the least injury to the road, for it will be that which will occasion no disturbance of the stones after they have been consolidated, but will only wear away their upper surfaces, and the iron of the tire. You have stated that you think the bringing of these machines to perfec¬ tion is retarded, because there is not a sufficient prospect of encouragement, and that steam coaches are therefore confined to the hands of persons who have not the same skill in practical mechanics as others, who would under¬ take the subject if adequate encouragement were offered; can you point out any mode by which that encouragement could be given?—Nothing could do it so effectually as offering a handsome parliamentary reward for the attain¬ ment of some specified performance, such as keeping a steam coach for pas¬ sengers regularly plying on some suitab'e road for two years, during which it should not have failed to arrive by steam more than some specified num¬ ber of times, and within a certain number of hours of lost time from the time-bill of the mail on the same road. Suppose this were done between London and Bistol, for a reward of 10,000/. it would cost the public no¬ thing if it were not accomplished, and the establishment of that one coach to carry the mail would be worth the money to the public whenever it was ac¬ complished; or between London and Holyhead would be still more im¬ portant, but that would require 20,000 /. reward. Another plan of more immediate application would be to offer a bounty of a fair price per mile for carrying despatches by steam (as I suggested before) whenever they ar¬ rived in a specified time; the price should be sufficient to pay expenses. That would, I think, be the best course, because I believe it would be un¬ dertaken at once by individuals, provided that no stipulations were made either for or against carrying passengers or goods. They would be sure to carry passengers and goods as soon as they could, for their own profit; and it might be stipulated, that after any coach had earned a certain sum in bounty, it should not be entitled to more. The. effect of such public re¬ wards has been very striking in the case of the invention of means of ascer¬ taining the longitude at sea. Another way would be, instead of money, to give exclusive privileges for a term to any persons who should first suc¬ ceed in establishing steam coaches on specified roads, under specified con¬ ditions of performance; or a society offering a premium, as was done in the case of steam navigation to India, would have a good effect: as was also ishown in the case of the locomotive steam carriages on the railway between Liverpool and Manchester. There a most inadequate premium (only 500/,) brought the invention forward more than ten following years of desultory and unencouraged attempts would have done. You think those means would produce a great effect?—I have no doubt of it; an important result may often be within a moderate sum of attainment, ¡and yeta prudent man will not set about it. It will be certain to cost 1,000 /. ¡and a year's hard labor of an engineer, whose timéis worth 500 /. more, to make a new steam carriage in a proper manner and bring it to bear as a busi¬ ness, supposing that its performance turns out as near to previous calculation, according to the experimental coaches now in existence, as can be expected, and that no radical alterations require to be afterwards made in it. After succeeding in the attempt, he must expect to make copies of it on the same ternas as other makers, who tvould examine one of the first coaches he sends 56 [ Doc. No. 101. ] out, and copy it with very little trouble. The operations of competent me¬ chanicians in making first machines of new invention, and bringing them to perfection in all their details, are necessarily more expensive than those of first inventors, who execute their experimental machines in a slovenly man¬ ner with cheap workmanship only as experiments; but when those experi¬ ments have been gone through, an extreme soundness and accuracy of workmanship is the only chance of attaining success in the machines which are sent out for real business. For want of experience to direct the me¬ chanician as to the right form, dimensions and weight of each piece of his machine, it often happens that, after having made a piece of expensive work, it will prove too slight or too heavy when set to work, and he may have to make it over again as expensively. The copyists, who will afterwards come into competition with him when his machine is brought to bear, will have no such difficulties. You conceive that a grant of public money as a premium would call forth the necessary degree of skill?—I have no doubt of it; we have had very few instances of invention being stimulated by the offer of public reward; but the instances, ascertaining the longitude is a most brilliant example. The facility and accuracy with which the longitude is now determined at sea, is the result of one of the greatest efforts of human genius and presever- ance. The stimulus of reward has occasioned both modes of it be perfect¬ ed, viz. by astronomical observations and by time-keepers. We should very soon have steam carriages brought into full use if such a reward were offered. Have you ever ascertained the duty or performance of work done in res¬ pect to the fuel consumed by locomotive engines?—They vary so greatly, that it is difficult to make a statement. The common locomotive engines which have been used for several years to draw coal wagons on railways, have remained without material improvement for a long time, and their per¬ formance is very low, being only equal to raising about four millions pounds weight one foot high by the consumption of a bushel of coals, their boilers evaporating about four cubic feet and a half of water into steam with each bushel of coals. Such engines exert six to eight-horse power. Mr. Ste¬ phenson's new quick-going engines on the Liverpool and Manchester rail¬ way are more improved in duty, and are in a progressive course of improve¬ ment; but as they burn coke instead of coal, the established mode of com¬ putation is inapplicable. Mr. Stephenson's small engine, called the Rocket, which gained the prize of 500 I. offered by the Liverpool and Manchester railway company, and which was the model for succeeding engines, exert¬ ed about six horse power during that trial, and burned 177 lbs. of coke per hour, which is at the rate of about five millions and a half pounds weight, raised one foot high by the consumption of 84 lbs. of coal; but they have greatly reduced the consumption of fuel in the succeeding engines on that railway, owing to enclosing the cylinders of the engines within the low¬ er part of the chimney, were they are kept very hot, and an increased ef¬ fect has been given to the fire by blowing the waste steam upwards through the chimney, as I stated before. In the Rocket they were just beginning to be aware of the value of that expedient for animating the fire, and it was done in a degree, but it has been since done more completely. Do you know how near any part of the railroad between Manchester and Liverpool runs to the common road?—I cannot say; in passing along the railway, I do not recollect seeing the turnpike road, except crossing it se¬ veral times. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 57 The noise made by the engines used on the railway is much greater than by the steam coaches, is it not? Yes; Mr. Hancock's coach makes less noise than any of Mr. Stephenson's engines; but the power exerted by the latter is much greater than by Mr. Hancock's engines. The quick-travel¬ ling carriages on the Manchester and Liverpool railway, when drawn by the last improved engines, are extremely easy in their motion. Is it your opinion, that a road would suffer less injury from the fore and hind wheels of a steam carriage following each other, in the same tracks on the road, than if they run on different tracks?—That depends upon what kind of action the wheels exert on the road; if they cut it up and disturb the materials, by pressing down some stones so deep as to displace other stones sideways, and cause them to rise up at the sides of the track, then it is best not to allow such wheels to cut the road twice in the same places; but if the fore wheels roll the road smooth on the surface, and consolidate, with¬ out disturbing the materials; that is, if they only press down the stones over which they pass as much as will produce a close contact, but not so much as to displace the neighboring stones laterally, then I think the hinder wheels should follow in the tracks of the fore wheels; certainly that is best for the carriage; and I believe it will be found that it makes but little dif¬ ference to a good hard road whether the four wheels of a carriage follow in the same track or not, provided that the wheels are not loaded so as to in¬ dent deep into the solid materials of the road. All- carriages ought to have ïheir wheels of such a breadth that they will not leave any material inden¬ tations in the road. They should rather consolidate the materials than break them up. If the fore wheels are only so much loaded, in proportion to their breadth and to the hardness of the road materials, that they will con¬ solidate the materials over which they have passed, then I think it is quite as well for the road and much easier for the carriage, that the hind wheels should follow in the tracks of the four wheels. The loading of the carriage may be so arranged that the principal weight will be borne on the hind wheels, and the fore wheels may (by a suitable apportionment of breadth) be qualified to consolidate the road in their tracks, and thus prepare the way for the passage of the hind wheels, with the least wear of the road and the greatest ease to the carriage. It is quite as much the interest of the proprie¬ tors of carriages, as of the road trusts, that the roads should not be cut up by too narrow wheels, for it is always at the expense of horse-labor that the road is thus injured, independently of the evil of having a worse road to travel over the next time. If the wheels are too narrow for the load upon them, and the road materials soft, so that the wheels do print tracks in the road, that evil will be greater, if the hind wheels follow the fore wheels than if they run in new paths; but it is better to remove the evil, by using broader wheels or less load, or harder road materials, and to run the wheelsin the same tracks; because the resistance to a carriage is, in all cases, increased by running the wheels in different tracks, and that with little or ¡10 benefit to the road; particularly, when the road is covered with mud and wet dirt or snow. The above observations apply to all four wheeled carriages, whether they are drawn by horses or impelled by steam; but, in common carriages, the horses' feet tend to dig up the road. I think the steam carriages will, when perfected, be free from that objection, and that tney have a greater claim to be allowed to run their wheels in the same tracks than other car¬ riages. Were you ever in Mr. Hancock's carriage, when travelling? Yes; I have S 58 [ Doc. No. 101. ] ridden on it; but he has put in larger cylinders since I went with him the last time, and I understand makes better progress now. I have examined all his present machinery in detail, and think it very judiciously planned. Did you find that it frightened horses, or annoyed passengers? I have stated before, that I found horses were not frightened; but every one must judge for himself of the degree of annoyance he experiences. Persons who are accustomed to travel in luxurious private carriages, would find many an¬ noyances in a common stage coach, which others would consider as excel¬ lent travelling. I am so accustomed to machinery, and to stage coach tra¬ velling and to steamboats, that I am not liable to be annoyed thereby; and I found riding in Mr. Hancock's carriage to be exceedingly like travelling in a stage coach. I heard no complaints by passengers. I believe he has never found any difficulty in getting passengers, since he has run for hire. Persons are reported to be annoyed by the smell of hot grease, in the steam coaches on the Cheltenham road; I can only say, that I never observed such a smell in Mr. Hancock's carriage. If there are any real annoyances to the passengers in particular steam coaches, they will work their own cure in a short time, either by the proprietors finding out remedies, or else giving up their coaches, as they must do if they are not rendered agreeable to the pas- engers. The only question that deserves attention, is, whether there is any danger to psssengers, or any serious annoyance to other persons not passen¬ gers. Did you observe any horses or carriages passing his carriage? Yes, I have always passed through crowds of horses and carriages with all the steam coach¬ es I have tried; there is so much curiosity excited by the novelty of a steam coach in motion, that all the horses on the road are drawn up to get a sight of it, and many are turned to follow after it. I have observed that some horses take very little notice of the steam coach; others are a little startled, but I never saw any difficulty which the reins could not control with the great¬ est ease. Horses are easily alarmed at any thing unusual, but they very soon become accustomed to any thing, as is shown by the readiness with which horses can be brought to endure discharges of fire-arms and of artillery. A patent was taken out some years ago for what was called a travelling Adver¬ tiser; it was a small four-wheeled carriage, supporting an enormous octagonal tower, which was stuck all over the outside with printed bills for advertise¬ ments. It was drawn very slowly through the streets by one horse, and had a most unusual appearance: this machine was indicted as a nuisance because it frightened horses. Have you never observed horses to shy at a stage coach when heavily la¬ den? I have observed horses to be alarmed at the enormous bulk which some of the vans carry at times at a greet height above ground. Horses are the most timid animals to encounter every thing that they are not accustom¬ ed to, and the most courageous animals to encounter every thing that they are accustomed to, even when really terrific, such as discharges of fire-arms. Had you occasion to turn any sharp corners when in Mr. Hancock's car¬ riage? Yes, many; the yard of his premises is exceedingly narrow and in¬ convenient to turn into and out from, but it is done with ease by the steam coach; but the same place would not do at all for a coach and four horses to put up at. Going at what speed can you turn round a sharp corner without any dan¬ ger? 1 do not remember turning with any considerable speed, nor should it ever be attempted with any carriage if it can be avoided, and there can be [ Doc. No. 101. ] 59 £ . ■*' ' no pretence or necessity for going quick when turning a steam coach, as its power is quite controllable, in which respect it has a great advantage over a common carriage; for four horses at the moment of turning, are very little under the control of the reins, particularly the leaders, and it depends upon their good will whether they choose to go slow or go quick when turning. In a steam carriage, the conductor has such a perfect control of the power, that he can never fail in checking the speed at the moment of turning. I observed that Mr. Hancock's carriage is steered with the greatest ease; and will turn round in a very short space : I have seen him turn round in the new road to return without backing the carriage at all, although he was in the middle of the road when he began to turn. If you had turned a sharp corner, could you have stopped immediately on meeting a carriage? Yes; the power of stoppage is most remarkable: that is oneof the great advantages of a steam coach. I have steered Mr. Han¬ cock's carriage myself, and found it to be most completely under control. The carriage may he turned in the smallest space that the wheels will per¬ mit it to go round in? Yes, in a much smaller space than a carriage with horses can turn, because it is so much shorter in the total length, and the power being completely under control, there is no danger in turning quite short; whereas no prudent driver will turn a four-horse coach round in a* read, without the guard getting down and holding the leaders' heads; for they are not sufficiently under the control of the reins in turning to do it with safety. Did you ever see a steam carriage going down a hill? Yes, down the hill of the new road at Islington; and it was done with more safety than with any carriage with four horses; but I do not contemplate the descent of steam coaches down very steep hills, for that supposes their getting up such hills, which is not likely to be accomplished soon, and the present coaches seem to me to be only fit for our most improved lines of roads, where all very steep hills have been reduced to moderate slopes. Have you turned your attention particularly to the subject of going up steep hills, and what ascent do you think can be surmounted? In forming my opinion of the probability that steam carriages will be brought to bear, I could not overlook the circumstance that they would have to go up and down hills; but most of our great lines of roads are now so improved, that what were formerly called steep hills are not very numerous or frequent; but wherever they do occur, I propose to give the steam coach the assistance of a 'pair of post-horses in aid of its own power. In going down hill, steam coaches are. very safe, because the-whole power can be effectually exerted to retard or resist the turning of the wheels. '■«» Mr. Gurney's steam coach has gone up Highgate hill without horses? Yes, but I understood that it was broken,in pieces in coming down again. My objection to attempting to make a steam coach go up a steep hill, in the pre¬ sent state of our knowledge, is, that it requires to have a great strength, and consequent weight of machinery to- have a sufficient power to do so with safety, and which weight is a useless incumbrance and impediment to pro¬ gression at all other times. The question is, whether all the machinery of a steam carHage should be made twice as strong and heavy as is necessary for impelling it with safety on a tolerable level road, merely that it may have power within itself for going up a few occasional hills, or whether it is better to make the machinery lighter, and take the occasional assistance of a pair of post-horses? There can be no objection to the latter expedient, except the 60 [ Doc. No. 101. ] expense of such horses; and as the steam coach can carry goods to profit in place of all the weight of machinery which is saved by making it lighter, I think that the aid of post-horses would be an economy. In forming such an opinion, I follow a maxim which I had always found to hold true; viz. that steam power is certain to be more profitable than horses, if the work is to be kept constantly going on, because then the great advantage of steam power, that it does not tire, becomes fully available; and to perform the same ser¬ vice by horses, a very great number must be kept for change; but for busi¬ nesses, which require only occasional working, or for working during on¬ ly as many hours each day as horses can do without changing, steam power loses its great advantage over horses, and in some cases they will do the work cheaper. One great item of the expense of steam power is the first cost of machinery and engineers' wages, both which would be only the same for working twelve hours per day as for one hour and a half, which is the utmost that a stage coach horse can draw at ten miles an hour. A steam coach should work twelve or fourteen hours in every twenty-four hours, to gain the full advantage of the system of steam power over horse labor; the in¬ tervening tenor twelve hours will allow ample time for putting every thing in perfect order for the next journey, if the machinery is what it ought to be, and there should be a spare coach for every two which are running, to al¬ low time for more considerable repairs: hence, I reckon that three steam coaches should keep up a double passage of 100 or 120 miles a day continu¬ ally. Expensive machinery, which is only to be worked occasionally, will not, in some cases, do work so cheap as it can be done by men or by horses without machinery; and that I conceive to be the case with the extra cost, weight, strength and complication which must be given to the machinery of a steam coach, in order to enable it to go safely up steep hills without assis¬ tance. I apply these remarks to the present steam coaches, but future im¬ provements may in time produce that species of machinery which will effect the going up hill with less difficulty than the present. It has been supposed that the diameters of the cylinders being larger than is necessary for going on level ground, they could be worked with a diminished strength of steam to go on level ground, and stronger steam when going up hill. To get up ordinary and moderate hills, that is certainly the right plan; but it requires the strength of all the moving parts of the engines to be made sufficient to bear the utmost force that the pistons can exert when impelled by the strong- steam that is ever to be used; also, the large wheels which run upon the road should be made very broad on the edges, and of proportionate strength. The present coaches have been faulty in these respects, and yet the machinery is too heavy. Another way of getting sufficient power to go up hill, is to have the pistons only a suitable size for going along the ordinary road, and to in¬ troduce wheel-work, which can be thrown into action when a hill is to be ascended, and which will turn the wheels of the carriage round only once for three turns of the cranks of the engine, and consequently with a triple lotee. Mr. Hancock has shown me the parts of such machinery which he is now making for a new steam coach, with wheel-work and endless chains, on a plan which 1 think very likely to answer for ascending moderate hills; but for very steep hills, I think it is desirable to have a help by post horses. The immediate desideratum is, to construct a steam coach with the power and strength necessary to go quickly and safely along the best lines of road which can be found, without any steep hills upon them, and taking assistance of post-horses where it is necessary. If that is accomplished, and sucha [ Doc. No. lot. ] 61 coach is worked continually for two or three years, it would probably lead to the knowledge of the proper kind of machinery to go up sleeper hills; but if the adoption of steam coaches is to wait until they are rendered much more perfect, it will be a very long time, because practice is essential to finding out a proper plan. Ä Do you think there is any danger in going down a hill in a steam carriage? Much less than in a common stage coach; for, by backing the engines, so that their power is brought to an act in opposition tà the turning round of the wheels, and with the assistance of drags or brakes, rub on the rims of the •wheels, and aid in retarding their motion by friction, steam coaches will safely get down all moderate hills, such as are met with on our best lines of turnpike roads, say between London and Holyhead; and with machinery such as Mr, Hancock is now making, if it is suitably proportioned, I expect a steam coach would not require assistance to get up hill at more than five or six places between London and Holyhead. , Stanmore and Highgate hill you call moderate hills?—Not the old High- gate hill; but the Archway is a very fair road, on which a steam coach should not feel the least difficulty. Ï do not call those moderate hills which are common on the roads in many parts of Devonshire and Cornwall; it will be a long time before steam coaches will be able to travel there; and the goodness of the roads is to be considered as well as the slope. No steam coach that I have seen, possesses that strength and weight of machinery ftvhich, being on the present construction, will enable it to get up even a moderate hill without risk of breaking; for, though it may climb up the hill by accumulating the strength of the steam, the parts have not been made strong enough to resist the strain to which they are then subjected, if they were frequently used; and if the work were made, on the present plan, strong enough to endure the extra strain of getting up a steep hill with safe¬ ty, there would be too much weight of machinery for travelling on the or¬ dinary road. Can they ascend a hill so steep as one in eighteen?—That I think is too much for them, without the aid of horses, unless the surface of the road were of the very best quality; but such hills are usually bad roads. Are they competent to ascend a such hill as St. James's street?—I have not a very particular recollection of the slope of that hill, but I believe it is paved, and I think that it would be about their maximum; for a great deal would depend upon the surface of the road. They would go up all the length of Regent street, which is, I expect, almost as steep as St. James's, but it is a better surface; and I think they should go up any good road not exceed¬ ing a rise of one in thirty; and if more inclined, or if the road is bad, they should be allowed one or two horses. I doubt if they could ascend the Pentonville hill in its present-shameful state of neglect; but if it is made good, then I think they might. Have you turned your attention to the subject of apportioning the tolls on steam carriages, so that they may bear their due proportion to the tolls on carriages drawn by horses? No, I have not paid much attention thereto; it is a subject which would require more consideration and more data than Ihave before me. Iam convinced that if a steam coach, complete when travelling, weighs no more on an average than a stage coach with its four horses complete weighs on an average, there is no reason for charging any extra toll for steam coaches, but, on the contrary, I believe it will turn out in the sequelthat they ought to go for less toll, because they will wear the *«4* ' '■ * 62 [ Doc. No. 101. ] roads less than the present coaches whenever they are made really efficient; and, in the mean time, until that is accomplished, I think it may be very safely left to the chance of events as to injuring the roads to any extent' whatever, by injudicious attempts to work steam coaches of an injurious construction, on the consideration that if any new coach which may be tarted, does injure the road, it will be very soon given up from its own de¬ merits, probably before it has produced any visible effect on the road. Suppose its wheels were to slip so much as to plough out ruts on the road, t would most likely stick fast, or be broken to pieces in the first journey along the road, and such abortive attempts will not be repeated very fre¬ quently. It is idle to talk of one or two steam carriages doing much visi¬ ble injury to a frequented road in a year or two, even if they run constant¬ ly, for, suppose that it wears the road four or five times as much as one carri¬ age of the same weight drawn by horses (including those horses in the weight,) it would only be equivalent to four or five additional coaches pas¬ sing each day, and that on the road from London to Birmingham, for in¬ stance, would be quite imperceptible. I am confident that any steam coach which does a road any greater damage than equivalent to carriages drawn by horses, will fail of itself in a short time, and prove an unsuccessful pro¬ ject. I should strongly recommend the new system to be left to its own chance of success or failure, as far as the roads and the safety of passengers are concerned; and I think the same reasoning applies against any regulation for the breadth of the wheels for steam carriages, because they will not per¬ form well if their wheels are so narrow as to cut the road materially. I understand that the old system of regulations and penalties, as to over weights on given breadths of wheels for common carriages, has been done away with on the roads in an extensive district round London, and I think that it is good policy, from the circumstance that the proportion regulates itself by the interest of the owners of carriages, when the fact is understood that carriage wheels, which are too narrow in proportion to the load on them, and to the hardness and goodness of the road, will always draw heavier than wheels of a suitable breadth; and that, though the carriers may not find out the proper breadth at once, they will do so in the end. The old acts for forcing the use of very broad wheels by making tolls operate as penalties and premium, was a most injudicious system of legislation, and did nothing but harm; the carriers soon found out how to evade the intention of the act, by using very broad conical or barrelled whells, rounding on the edges, which conformed to the words of the law, but which acted on the road like narrow wheels. The broad wheels intended to have been encouraged by the old act of Parliament, were expected to act as rollers to make and improve the roads, and were encouraged to carry excessive loads for that object; but if the wheels of the broad wheeled wagons actually used had been really such as the Legislature contemplated, they could not have been continued in use on account of the great increase of draft; but the '¡«road wheels actually used, carried such loads, that they crush the road materials to powder, owing to the conical form of the wheels and' the bending of the axletrees; they bore on the road almost wholly at the inner edges of the iron tires, and not across all their breadth, as was intend¬ ed. The advantage to the carriers in tolls, and in increased loads, induced them to use such broad wheels, when it would have been against their in¬ terest to have done so, if they had paid the same tolls for the weight of goods as other carriers, and their operation on the road was more injurious than any other carriages. There is no particular breadth of wheels which [ Doc. No. 101. ] 63 can be prescribed as the best to carry given loads'over all sorts of roads, for much depends upon the hardness of the road materials, the size to which the pieces are broken, their general form and disposition to consolidate into a hard bed the resistance the materials offer to wet and frost, and to wear¬ ing by the wheels, the breadth of the wheels, and the load upon them, should be adapted to all the combinations of circumstances, and the carrier will soon find, if his wheels are not best adapted to the road, by the draft being greater than it ought to be. As to steam; coaches, the wear which will take place on roads, from all that can, by any probability, be expected to be brought into use for some years, will be so small that it cannot be felt for a considerable period, and when it is felt it, will be time to look round and see what is the real effect on the roads of those particular coaches which are in use, and apportion the tolls that they ought to pay. Is it your opinion that weight for weight, including the weight of horses on one hand, and of engines and an average of the water and fuel on the other, the tolls should be the same on steam carriages as on horse-drawn carriages?»?' I think that if it were so, it would prove a considerable advan¬ tage to the roads, because, as I have stated before, I think the roads will be considerably benefitted by the change of impelling by steam instead of by horses. I think it will be a great public benefit when steam coaches come into common use, and hence that it is expedient that a moderate bounty should be offered for the adoption of steam carriages, by giving them all possible 'advantage they can have without trenching on the interests of individuals; and if they were allowed to run toll free, and duty free, until a certain number were in use, or during a certain time, it would much accelerate their introduction, because it would diminish the loss that must necessarily be incurred by running them before they are perfected in their construction. Small encouragements or discouragements have a considerable effect on new inventions in their infant and imperfect state. The advantage to the public from steam navigation is now generally acknowledged; but when steam¬ boats were in their infancy, an attempt was made by the watermen on the Thames to suppress them, by contending that, according to their charter, and the usage of the city of London, no persons could be allowed to own a vessel plying for passengers on the Thames, nor to work on board of such a vessel, except they were freemen of the city, and belonging to the wa¬ termen's chest. This would have effectually prevented any engine men being employed, and, in addition, the watermen engaged all their members to refuse to navigate them. After a long dispute and delay of the steam¬ boats, it was decided that one out of a number of owners being free was if sufficient, and that the men employed to manage the engines were not sub¬ ject to the watermen's regulations of freedom of the river; some watermen were induced, by giving them small shares in lieu of wages, to exercise their right of freedom in favor of the real owners, and to navigate the ves¬ sel. It was afterwards attempted to get the measurement and calculation for the registered tonnage of the steam vessels made according to the extreme breadth across thè*projecting boxes which contain paddle wheels, under the pretext that they occupied that width in the river and in harbors, instead of measuring the breadth of the vessel at the surface of the water. If that could hâve been enforced, it would have nearly doubled all the rates on steam vessels compared with other vessels; but the subject being brought before Parliament, an act was passed to give them the advantage of deducting as much from the length of the vessel as is occupied by engines and machinery 64 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 in calculating the registered tonnage. This was in effect a small bounty upon steam vessels, for they have no claim to such an advantage over sailing vessels, when the weight of masts, sails and rigging, in the latter is not de¬ ducted in calculating their tonnage. The effect of that measure has been favorable to the advancement of steam navigation, for though it was but a very trifling bounty, and is now of no consequence, it came as a well-timed aid, at the date when that act passed, because almost all steam vessels were then navigated at a loss, they were so imperfect (like steam coaches at the present day,) that their engines were continually getting outof order, where¬ by they failed to make their passages, and required expensive reparations, their consumption of fuel was great, and thewearof boiler excessive. On the other hand, few passengers would go by them at first, and some terrible accidents which happened in a few vessels caused them all to be avoided by passengers for a long time. It was only by persisting in keeping them going as well as they could, and thereby gaining experience in their management, that the numerous defects of their construction were remedied. Most of the earliest steamboats had two or three successive editions of engines and ma¬ chinery before they were rendered so perfect as to become profitable; and, in addition to the expenses of such alterations and improvements in the ma¬ chinery, they were obliged to make their passages regularly for some time after they were rendered tolerably effective before they acquired sufficient confidence with the public as to their safety and punctuality, to enable them to obtain as many passengers as would pay the expenses of navigating the vessels. For all these reasons, any increase of their expenses was severely felt, at that losing period; many were abandoned, and the difference in the expenses occasioned by the rates to which vessels are liable, being calculated according to the breath across the paddle-wheels, or according to the act passed for measuring them short by all the space taken up by the engines, would have occasioned others which have been brought to bear to have been given up, before they had attained so much perfection as to enable them to earn their expenses. In the same manner the tolls levied upon steam coaches at present are to be regarded, not as payments out of the profits of a gainful trade, but as an increase of loss upon that which is yet, and which must in¬ evitably continue to be for some time, a losing business. The ultimate suc¬ cess to which I look forward is entirely dependent on the circumstance of the first speculators in steam coaches being enabled to go through a sufficient term of inefficient performance, and consequent loss, to acquire experience in the new business; and that experience will, no doubt, lead to expensive alterations and reconstructions of their machinery. There is so much me¬ chanical talent to be had for-money, that I have no doubt of the final accom¬ plishment, if the attempts now making are continued long enough; because I am confident that there is (as was the case in steamboats) a real efficacy in the principle of action. The general opinion of engineers was not very favorable to steamboats when they were first brought forward as a novelty; many doubted if they could ever be made to perform well, particularly at sea; and others, who foresaw the possibility of that, doubted whether they would answer in point of expense of fuel, and wear and tear of engines and boilers. If no assistance or encouragement is given to new inventions when o o they are in the infant state which steam coaches are now in, persons who find that they only lose money when they expected to gain, by being the first to adopt the improvements, are liable to become disheartened, and give up the pursuit too precipitately, whereby their undertaking dies a natural [ Doc. No. 101. ] 65 death; and that is sometimes the case when it might have been established by another two or three w;eeks' continuance of the efforts; and that contin¬ uance might be induced by some small relief, like the reduction which was made by Parliament in the register tonnage of steam vessels, or the taking off of tolls from the earliest steam coaches. If by any means they are enabled to go on till the proper plan of machinery and management is found out, they will afterwards keep their ground, because the profit of working by steam in lieu of horses will be very great. The present steam coaches are mere experiments, and the next editions of each plan of them will, I expect, be losing concerns, and will continue so to be for some time. Under those circumstances, every small increase of their expenses is a real retarda¬ tion to that practical establishment of the invention which will render it useful to the public; such retardation by small causes is operative to a greater extent than can easily be conceived. Steam coaches will very well bear all tolls and taxes to which other coaches are subject, when they are able to carry passengers- regularly and profitably; but they want encouragement* now, instead of difficulties being thrown in their way. As to the right of tolls on turnpike roads, it should be recollected that turnpike roads are not property, like canals, but trusts, to be exercised for the benefit of the public; and if it is for the interest of the public that steam coaches should be brought into use, and if that bringing into use will be accelerated by suspending the tolls on therii at first, the trustees of roads ought not to object to such an arrangement. The real amount of tolls they will forego, will be an exceed¬ ingly small per centage on the income of their tolls; for so long as steam coaches are losing concerns, they cannot be very numerous. In the course of your examination, have you meant to confine your evi¬ dence to steam coaches? Yes, to steam coaches for public conveyance of passengers and parcels in the manner of stage eoafthes, and travelling at the rate of ten miles an hour on our best lines of turnpike roads, with occasional assistance of one or two post-horses, where necessary, to surmount unusual hills or very bad pieces of new laid road. -If it were thought admissible to begin \yith travelling at a less speed than that, and to carry goods only in the manner.of vans, the thing is nearer to accomplishment, because the accom¬ modation and comfort of passengers would then be out of the question; and also the violence to which quick travelling carriages are subjected, requires a greater,strength of all the parts than would be necessary to carry the same weight at->a slower speed. ■ In other respects, steam power will propela carriage as cheaply at a quick rate as at a slower rate. That fact is proved on railways, in actual business; and steam coaches will be the same whenever* they can be made strong enough to bear quick motion without being over-» loaded with weight of machinery. That will be one of their great ad¬ vantages over horse labor, which becomes more and more expensive as the speed is increased. There is every reason to expect, that, in the end, the rate of travelling by steam will be much quicker than the utmost speed of travelling by horses; in short, that safety to travellers will become the limit to speed, as is now the clise on railways. What is your opinion as to impelling wagons by. steam? I have never considered that at all in detail, and am not prepared Jo give evidence upon the subject. The price of carrying passengers or goods at a quick speed, as ts done by stage coaches or vans, will always be so much higher than the prices of carrying an equal weight at a slow speed, as is done by wagons, that I see no inducement to attempt steam wagons, which I think would 9 * 66 £ Doc. No. 101. ] present almost all the same difficulties"^ steam vans. According to theory, the cost of carriage by steam will (as I have stated, be proportionate to ■weight and distance, without regard to speed of motion; for instance, to con¬ vey a coach loaded with two tons for a distance of ten miles only, the same fuel will be consumed, and the same wear of machinery will be occasioned, whether that distance is run in one hour or in four hours. (¿"he wages of engineers, conductor and guard will be only one-fourth with the'quick speed, and the first outlay in machinery would be only one-fourth, because four times as many engines must be on the road, with their attendants, at the same time, to do the work ata slow speed, as at a quick speed; but the money earned by the carrier at the slow speed, will be only a small part of what would be earned at the quick speed. Taking into consideration the comparative expense of horse carriages and steam carriages, do you suppose that steam carriages will be able to rug for half the charges of horse carriages? My own idea is, that steam coach- ' es will, very soon after their first establishment, be run for one-third of the cost of the present stage coaches; but to become a business at all it must necessarily be a business which will offer strong inducements to persons to embark in it; and to do that, the rate of profit must be very much greater than that which is commonly expected to be realized by the proprietors of stage coaches. Their present trade affords a less profit on the capital and trou¬ ble of management probably than any other sprt of business which is car¬ ried on with spirit in this country. The great reason of that is, the constant loss by destruction of horses, the fluctuations 6f the price and quality of horse-keep, and the impossibility of reducing stage coach establishments in times when travelling business is flat; because the horses must be kept and men to attend them at all events, and the loss of running a coach half employed is not so great as suspending it, and keeping the horses idle on short allowance, till better times come round] The profit of stage coaches which load well is very high, particularly in the fine travelling season, and that occasional profit creates an-excitement which induces the injudicious setting up of more coaches than are wanted for an average of aff seasons; and for the reasons above stated, their expenses when once set going, can¬ not be reduced to meet bad times. The adoption of steam coaches will set the trade free from its great commercial difficulty, because they can be laid up and kept idle without considerable loss, and brought out again when wanted without any new outlay; also fuel does not fluctuate either in price® or quality to any considerable extent like horse corn. In short, the capital , embarked in a steam coach trade will not be so rapidly wasted as at present ¿n horses. Owing to the great number of horses which must be first bought and then kept to do the same work as one steam coach, the first out¬ lay in stock will be very small in steam coaches, compared with horses, the same of stables, hostlers and harness. The daily expenses of fuel and at¬ tendants will be very much less than that of horse keep and attendance; the wear and tear of the coaches, and all that is eoachmaker's work, will be only the same as at present, but the wear and tear of^engines and machinery, though a very expensive item on each engine, will be nothing to compare with the present repairs, loss and decay of horses, because the number of engines is so small. Stage coach horses require to be all renewed every three years, notwithstanding a heavy annual expense for what may be called repairs of horses: viz. harness, shoeing and farriery. Engines with an squally heavy annual expense of repairs to that of horses, will, when per- £ Doc. No. 101. ] 67 fected, be kept up thereby in such a state as to last for many years without renewal. The metal parts of machinery only wear at particular places, which are capable of being repaired or renewed, so that they become as good as new; but a horse, when worn to disease at any part, feet, eyes or lungs, becomes'incapable of stage coach work forever afterwards. ¿y v Do you apply the principle you have stated respecting the probable wear of the roads by steam power being less than by horses, to heavy wagons? Yes; my proposition that the wear of the roads will always be at the expense of the carrier, applies to all carriages whatever, but more particularly to those' impelled by steam than to those drawn by horses, because carriages drawn by horses may be so mismanaged, as to do very great injury ¿o the roads, and yet may make good progress in travelling. For instance, a wagon having very nar¬ row wheels, carrying a heavy over-load, having a sufficient team of strong heavy horses, may be drawn along although it breaks the road up to any extent, ind that as much by the feet of the horses as by the narrow wheels; but, if it were attempted to impel the same wagon by steam power acting by the adhe- ^ sion of the wheels to the road, they would slip round, and it would not get along- the road. I am confident that carriages to be impelled by steam machinery turning the wheels, cannot be made to answer any good purpose, either for conveyance of travellers or goods, so long as they materially injure the roads, because if the wheels slip materially on the road, or if they cut sensible ruts in the road, they will not advance the carriage efficiently. On the Other hand, horses may bp made to draw a carriage which will injure the road. I think that principle must apply to steam wagons as well as to steam coaches. Then heavier the loads to be drawn, the more important it is to apply Steam instead of horses, if the roads will be benefitted by that substitution? I think so, as far as the roads are concerned, but 1 doubt if steam wagons ill offer any comparison of the profit to be derived from steam coaches, o get along the road, steam wagons will require very broad wheels, and there is no danger of doing injury to the road by them, for they will not get along if the wheels are too narrow, but narrow-wheeled wagons drawn by horses may do an injury to any extent, for extra horses may be put on, and they will injure the road with their feet at the same time that they draw a car¬ riage after theniy which also injures the road. It will be a loss to the carrier to do so, byt there is nothing in the nature of the operation to prevent it being done, as there would be in the case of steam wagons. Of course, a steam carriage going slower than ten miles an hour will be* more expensive to travel, on account of the greater expenditure of fuel?,* No; the consumption ot fuel, according to time, would be as much less as* the motion would be slower; so that the consumption of fuel, according to distance, would be the same, whether for a quick speed or for a slow speed; but when profit is considered, every thing is in favor of quick speed; be¬ cause all goods carried slow must be carried cheap; and quick conveyance will bear the highest price of carriage, on account of the expense of going quick by horses. For instance, a ton of goods may be carried a mile byi steam power with a certain consumption of fuel,, but.it should take no more fuel to carry it a mile, at,the rate of two and half miles an hour, than at ten miles an hour. There is some qualification to be made in that statement ac¬ cording to the state of the roads; it will be true if they are hard and good, but if they are heavy, the expense of fuel will be a little more for the quick v. speed than for the slower speed; and it is also tobe understood, that the engines, tnust be suitably proportioned for attaining quick speed, because engines, 68 £ Doc. No. 101. ] which are only adapted for slow motion, do not work to so great an advanr tage when they are urged to work quick as when they are worked at or be* low the speed which the proportions of their parts are adapted to move with; nevertheless, that extra expense of going quick by steam power will be but small, and nothing like the increased cost of travelling quick with horses; for horses have only a limited speed at which they can travel, if they have no load to carry or drag after them, the whole of their muscular strength being then required to advance the weight of their own bodies. The .speed with which stage coaches now travel, approaches so near to the speed with which the horse could travel without any load, that their force of draught becomes very small. In all cases, horses lose force of draught in a much greater proportion than they gain speed, and hence the work they do becomes more expensive as they go quicker. The quickest stage coaches travelling is now at the rate of eleven miles an hour, and that appears to be very near to the utmost limits which nature has prescribed for animal exer¬ tion; for those horses require renewal of the whole stock every two or three fcyears. .This is a comparison of steam power and horse labor, during the time that each is actually in operation; but the real difference between the performance of a steam engine and that of a set of horses will be found to be very great, when it is considered, that, by having one spare steam coach for every two or three which are on the road, those coaches can travel con¬ tinually all the year round, during fourteen or fifteen hours in every twenty- four hours, without any intermission, except Stopping for one or two mi¬ nutes to take in waterat every stage of about seven or eight miles; .and thus each steam coach can travel 140 or 150 miles a day; whereas a set of four stage coach horses can only work during seven hours and a half out of every twenty-four hours, or each horse can run fifteen miles a day, and that exertion wears them out very soon. A cart-horse, travelling at the rate of two miles and a half an hour can work during eight hours out of every twenty four hours, or he can travel 20 miles in a day. Suppose that in botJji cases, of horses going ten miles an hour or only two miles and a half an hour, the force of traction was the same during the time that they were actually drawing; even on that supposition, there would he the difference between twenty miles a day and fifteen miles a day in favor of slow travel¬ ling; but in considering the work performed, the great loss in the force of draught by quiek travelling must be taken into account; and it will be found that a cart horse walking at two miles and a half an hour, could draw with a force of traction lOOlbs. on an average, but that a stage coach horse, running at 'ten miles an hour, cannot exert more than 28lbs. force of traction at an aver¬ age. The above proportion of distance travelled, and force of ¿traction ex¬ erted in each case being combined into one product, the portion will stand thus: 20 miles a day X lOOlbs. draught = 20,000, to represent the work done by a horse tiavelling at the rate of two miles and a half an hour, and 15 miles a day x28lbs. draught=420 to represent the work done by a horse travel¬ ling at the rate of ten miles an hour, which is 43 to 1 in favor of a slow speed; when with steam power there would be only a very slight difference of performance at the quick or the slow speed. Respecting the injury done to the roads by heavy carriages, whether they are drawn by horses or impelled by steam power, you consider that weight for weight (including horses and engines as part of the weight) the one will not do more injury to the road than the"other? In my opinion, the steam carriages will do the least injury of the two. The horses, by tread- . . . # [ Doc. No. 101. J 69 , .v ing with their feet, excavate and scrape out depressions in the surface of the road, that is particularly the Case before the road materials are consolidated into a solid mass; and the evil of depressions or holes in the road is not the merely injury done by the feet of the horses to those particular parts of the •road in which the depressions are made, but the wheels of other carriages which pass over such depressions, drop heavily with force in to them, so as to make the depressions continually deeper and larger, and to loosen the surrounding stones. In this manner the horses after injuring the road them¬ selves, prepare the way for further injury to the road by the wheels of carriages. For to have the full benefit of the rolling action of the wheels in consolidating the road materials, the latter must be laid smooth and level before the wheels come upon them; but if the materials are previously thrown up into little hills and holes, the wheels will do mischief instead of g;ood. ! Suppose the engine and machinery in a steam carriage to weigh two tons, and to be able to advance.,an additional load, equal to their own weight* along a good road, at an average speed of ten miles an hour, do you think that any additional toll should be imposed upon steam carriages be¬ yond that paid by four horse stage coaches, or vans; assuming the four 'horses to weigh two tons, and to draw a load of two tons, at the rate of ten miles an hour? In such a case, I can see no reason whatever for any increase oí toll; but the diminished wear c$ the roads, which I anticipate from the use of iteam in lieu of horses, will be a reason for a reduction of tolls whenever such a diminution of wear is realized. Would horses drawing 80 cwt. upon a road, with a slow walking pace, in your opinion, do more injury to the. road than an engine doing the same work? I have had no experience of drawing heavy weights by steam to en- £ble me to form an opinion respecting the effect that the broad wheels, rhich must then be used, would have on the road, and what advancing power they would have before they began to slip on the road, without ad¬ vancing the carriage forwards; nor what would be the weight of engines which could advance 80 cwt. ata slow speed. I feel some doubt of the practicability of making steam engines advance so many times their own weight, as I expect it would be, with effect, and I feel confident that, in the present state of the art, there would be no profit in doing it; but if it were accomplished, I believe that the broad wheels of the steam wagon would do no injury to the road, whereas, in heavy wagons drawn slowly by horses, the horses do far much more injury by digging and scraping with their feet than is done by the horse in coaches and vans travelling quickly; because the wagon horses having a heavy pull to take must choose places sin the road where they can place their feet in depressions, in order to get hold; hence, on a good smooth road they slip and scrape up the surface. ,, t Veneris, 12° die ¿higusti, 1831. , . Á * Mr. Richard Trevithicfc, called in, and examined. Have you been long conversan! with steam engines?, Twenty-six years ago I invented a high pressure steam engine and a locomotive engine, and since that time Boulton and Watt's engines have been ihrown aside in Corn¬ wall, and the high pressure steam engines,vvitjj the improvements upon the # 4«* _ *y 70 * [ Doc. No. 101. ] >« boilers I have made, have been throwing Boulton and Watts,'s engines con-, stantly out of use, there is not one of those now in use in the mines. The average of the duty of Boulton and Watts's engines, about twenty years ago, was taken by Mr. Gilbert, which gave, perhaps, about seventeen millions of pounds, lifted a foot high with a bushel of coals; and sometime after that, Mr. Gilbert made a report in the transactions of the Royal Society, that he had lound one of my high pressure engines in Cornwall was doing seventy- five millions: and, in the same report, he stated that they were doing nearly as seven to twenty-eight, or four to one, and as ten to one on the atmospheric engines. Have you lately paid attention to steam carriages on common roads? I have noticed the steam carriages very much: I have been abroad l'or a good many years, and had nothing to do with them until lately, but í have it in contemplation to do a great deal on common roads; railroads are useful for' speed, and for the sake of safety, but not otherwise: every purpose would be answered by steam on common roads. v Is your machine applicable to steam carriages? It is chiefly for that pur¬ pose, it worlds without water; now the Manchester carriages use four tuns a day, two tuns that they take in when they start, and two they take in mid¬ way of their journey; there is that weight to carry, and the loss of time. You conceive steam carriages to be applicable to common purposes? Yes, to every purpose a horse can efiect. y. Have you any plan particularly applicable to that purpose? Yes^I have taken out a patent for that purpose. This, the plan which I produce, (pro¬ ducing the same, J will show the principle. I built a twenty horse engine in Cornwall, in order"to try this: this I produce is for a ship engine. \_Mr. t Trevithick explained to the committee the different parts of the machine on the plan.'] The bursting of boilers has been occasioned by the boilers f being left under gauge, neglected to be charged with water, and, I believe, » by their getting foul and incrusting with salt from using Salt water; the low pressure engines have burst as welí as the high pressure; if the tubes of the* boilers are heated-red hot, and the engine is standing at the time water is still in'v the boiler is quiet; but on the engine setting to work, a discharge of steam from the boiler to the cylinder causes a great ebullition-in the boiler, and the water splashing over the hot sides make a superabundant genera¬ tion of steam. The space that would be filled instantaneously from the hot tubes being suddenly cooled, the space occupied by that superabundance would fill three hundred times the space usually allowed for steam, and a safety valve of five times the size would give no relief, or not in time; a proof that a high pressure steam engine boiler has not been broken gene¬ rally by the pressure of the high steam, but from being heated, is because the ■ portable gasholders are about ten inches diameter, and the sixteenth of an inch thick, and they are charged with 30 atmospheres, or 450 lbs. each without accident; an accident never happens to them, and the pressure is not so great as on half of the strength of iron; the boilers of steam en¬ gines in Cornwall have burst that have not been loaded to an eighth part of that pressure for the same substance and size of boilers. Therefore, that is a proof that they must have been broken by the heating of the boiler, and sud¬ denly cooling itby a sudden expansion. The gas holders have never been heat • ed, and have never been injured. I have known instances whereby turning cold water into a red-hot boiler they have exploded. An engine I had the care of was injured by neglect of one of the enginemen in that way. The boilers to the high pressure steam engines on my constrag&jpn are cylinders, [ Doc. No. 101. ] 71 one in the other, the inner cylinder containing fire, and the outer cylinder surrounds the water, and leaves a space of about a foot between the two tubes for water. Where they have been neglected the fire tube has been made red-hot, and the splashing of water over the hot tube from the ebulli¬ tion occasioned by the escape of steam, has burst the boiler by the water "flowing over the red hot sides, and generating steam faster than it can be discharged. By neglected you mean that the tubès were not completely covered with water? They are not covered with water. With my inferential engine, that never can be the case. Have the goodness to state to the committee your opinion with respect to the wear of the road by steam carriages? I think that the roads will not be injured so much by steam carriages in future as they have been, because « there will be no need to chain the wheels; by putting the valve to the stop, . the steam going off that has never yet been applied, there is no need to chain the wheel. That is very easily done; if the steam is prevented escaping, the * piston must stand still, and it can be let down as gently as possible; they may either stop instantly or go as easily as they please; the throttle barrel will answer the purpose to throttle between the cylinder and the dis- , charge pipe; that would be saving of the roads. Have you made any observation on the injury done to the road by a car¬ riage propelled not in the usual manner, but by a motion communicated to its wheels? I think the roads would be less injured by steam carriages than by horses, because the wheels will have very little more to carry now than . they have with horses, and there are no horses' feet to injure the road: there¬ fore that part of it is saved; the engines now will be so very light that it will be scarcely felt. The power to draw the carriage will be very little more than the weight of harness on the horses. Would you be inclined, for the advantage of the road, to give greater width to wheels if you give greater velocity? I would rather give greater width; I do not think the road is injured so much; there is less friction. If *.two inch wheel goes two inches deep, and a four inch wheel goes only bne inch deep, there is two to one difference in the friction, for the ascent in getting up out of a two inch rut requires a great deal more frictiou. The wider the wheels, in my opinion, though the greater extent the less friction; they use wide wheels to go over soft ground on farms to prevent their sink- ; ing; there is a great friction, for it is always going down hill, and the friction is pulling it up hill. There is a power thrown away, but that would not have . been the case with a wider wheel. Do you think for a greater weight with a great velocity of carriage, you could put wheels so wide that, instead of doing injury, they should do good to the road? Yes; I think if the wheels had been as wide as they ought to have been to'take the advantage of ease, they would rather have done a service to the road than an injury, that is, to settle down the road; but the greatest folly I have ever seen is the wide wagon wheels which go free of turnpike duty: one part is nine feet round and the other part not above se¬ ven and a half or eight feet, one part is going faster than the other, and the one part must rub; had the wheel'been upright, and it was turned off, the point only would meet, but it would not be rubbing. There is a particular width of wheel in which no injury will be done to the road, but rather good? It will be rather good after the road has been mended to settle it down; there will be wear iu it as at other times; but in 72 [ Doc. No. 101. ] certain states of the roads, to settle them down, they will doing good, but at' no state of the road could it do good with narrow wheels. What would be the effect when the road was once settled? You see very often roads which have been gravelled; in, dry weather the dust blows away; they can never settle again, but if the broad wheels passed over to crush it. over with the dust, it would settle down much firmer; but the narrow wheels slide so easy through, that they sink down, and shove them on each side. . Is there any state of the road in which you think a wide wheel would do injury to the road? No; there is no state of the road in which wide wheels will do an injury; if there was to be a wheel of an inch in diameter instead of six inches, it would be like a stamping wheel cutting the road constant¬ ly, but the width of the wheel takes off that: the tenacity of stone is equal to the weight. Does not the whole of this refer to wheels that are cylindrical and the axles horizontal? Yes, they ought to be straight; that is, the very wheel • which I want for a steam carriage with straight axles. Is not the road injured in two ways by the wear of it, and by the separa¬ tion of the materials? The separation of the materials is not so likely to takes place with wide wheels as with narrow. That is the reason why narrow wheels injure the roads more than wide • wheels? Yes; and there isa much greater weight upon one pebble than is thrown on two or three; double the weight is thrown on one pebble than would otherwise be; then that pebble is crushed; for the stone does not bear strongly enough together to resist it. For this reason, the operation of horses' shoes must be much more inju- ' rious than that of broad wheels? Yes; they are more likely to break the hard stones than a dead weight. I think the horses' feet much more like» ]y- There are certain states of the roads 111 which the widths of the wheel would occasion your losing power, are there not? No, I think not, I have heard that mentioned, but I think it is not so. Is there any slipping or sliding in the wheel of the steam carriage? Whea the trial for the premium given on the Manchester railway was decided, the" engines ran for a certain time, and the strokes were counted, and the dis¬ tance was measured, and there were remarks made upon that day's peform- ance: they found, by measuring the periphery of the wheel, the number of the strokes made, and the distance run, that there was not the least variation whatever: they could find no difference. Was not that on a railroad? Yes. The cylindrical wheel, with the horizontal axle, is the best for the road? Yes. Is there not much less likelihood to slip on a common road, than on ail iron railroad? Yes. Suppose there are sharp ascents upon a common road, how would that ap¬ ply? There is no ascent that any common carriages go over, where the steam carriage will not go down the hill with one wheel chained; no road in the neighborhood of London that they would not run down with one wheel chained; that is, only one quarter part of the weight of the carriage, if the wheel is chained. If you are drawing up hill with two or four wheels driven by an engine, by their all turning round, they are as like y to go up bill. One wheel ought to put it up hill. It will go up a hill of double that ascent without slipping. . - ♦ £ Doc. No. 101. ] 73 Will the increasing breadth of the wheel render slipping in ascending a hill more or less likely to take place? I rather think that will increase the friction, because that does not tend to make a rut. In making a rut, there is a very great difficulty in the wheel getting out of that rut, for there is no footing; but where it does not sink, that is not the case. Supposing the width of the wheel to be the same on a carriage and a steam engine, and the weight of the carriage the same, do you consider that a wheel perfectly cylindrical, with a horizontal axle, preferable to a wheel dished like that of a common stage coach, with a common axle? You can¬ not have a dished wheel to a great width, without its dragging as I have described, unless you alter the system. If you keep the present dish, you must have a narrow wheel, or it is rubbing; but if it is a straight axle, it ought to be as wide as that where there is no more friction, and then the wide wheel will not do half the mischief that the coach-wheel does. The present stage coach-wheel will do a great deal more mischief, working as it does, than if it had been perpendicular. Are you to be understood that, in no state of the road, a wide wheel such as you have described would do injury to the road? A wide wheel will do a partial injury, but not one quarter of that which it would do if it were narrow. What sort of injury will it do? It will tend to crush the pebbles and wear them, but that will be very trifling indeed; if you have a hundred weight upon a wheel of an inch wide, and a hundred weight upon a wheel of two inches wide, that one of an inch wide will break ten times as many pebbles as the other; every inch it goes will break stones; a wide wheel does away the injury. You are aware that in the carriages that run at present on the common roads, the wheels do not run in the same track—in the event of having wheels with the tires four inches wide, do you think it would be better that the tire of the hind wheels should run in the same track or a different track? For the carriage making one turn only, it is easier for the wheels to go on the same track; but if you wish to take the average of the duty, they never ought to go in one track. You think, in the steam carriages, that the tire of the hind wheels should go in different tracks? Yes; the one produces a burr, and the other smoothes it down. * Will the carriage run so easy? No; it would for one turn; but, in the course of time, going every day backwards and forwards, the work will be done easier. You think the tire may be extended to almost any width: what is the width which you think a steam engine travelling rapidly ought to have? It depends upon the weight they have to carry; but if you draw a conclu¬ sion from the coaches carrying four tons on two inch wheels, you might, with a great deal of convenience to the engine, makb them six; but a six inch wheel would not break one-tenth part of the stones which a two inch would. You see no objection to a steam carriage, intended to travel fast, with passengers, which may weigh as much as a coach and four with its horses, having a six inch tire? No; I know it is condemned by people in general; but 1 have never heard, nor have I seen, any reasons for its being condemn¬ ed. The wheels being wide and being cylindrical, with their axle horizontal,' 10 74 [ Doc. No. 101. ] supposing you were to double the diameter, orto increase the diameter con¬ siderably of a wheel six inches wide, would it go more easily for the road? It would go easier for the machine; but then there must be a wheel of dou¬ ble the width, and that would be loading the machine in going up hill with an unnecessary weight; but that would ease the road; it will have a longer bearing on the ground; there would not be so quick a circle. With respect to the road, there would be a considerable advantage? Yes, for it is a larger arch. With respect to the engine, would there be any other disadvantage but the additional weight? Ño; I do not know any material objection except that, and that would throw the engine very high; it would be top heavy. I do not think it would be convenient to make wheels above six feet. Can you state the weight of your engine as compared with the weight of the present engine? I will furnish an answer to that question. Do you conceive that your engine, of which you have produced a plan, is as applicable to carriages on roads as to the propelling engines at sea? Yes, that is one object I have in view, and for agricultural purposes, for ploughing, and every other purpose. Have you ever calculated what the weight of a carriage would be with one of your engines? Yes; I am looking to see the necessity of the doing away with the supply of water that I have done away with; but, in dispen¬ sing with the water, I shall save three-quarters of the fuel; every time we double the force of steam we save seventy-five per cent, upon it. This en¬ gine, I conceive, will not take one quarter part of the fuel; one charge of water will do for a month. I have just taken out a patent for my engine. Do you condense with a sufficient rapidity to take from the piston the pres¬ sure of the returning steam? Yes; there was an engine which had been working with high steam and one of my boilers, and the cylinder was en¬ closed with brick work to keep off the external air: while I was abroad they took down the brick work, and set it at a distance from the cylinder of four or five inches, and turned the draught from the fire round the cy¬ linder to keep it off, and from that made more than sixty per cent, difference in the fuel; if the engine was doing forty millions to a bushel of coals be¬ fore, it then did sixty-three millions, and they burnt five bushels of coals to keep the cylinder hot. If they had put that under the boiler, it would have done forty millions as before; but in putting in five bushels round the boiler, it did three hundred and fifty-six millions; then the difficulty was to know how it would make that difference. I could not at first make it out; howev¬ er it turned out afterwards how it was, and it was the steam; when coming in upon the piston, the cold sides of the cylinder took out a part of the heat; these are single engines; the steam is returned under the piston upon the engine going that stroke again. The cold sides of the cylinder caused a dew by the steam; the steam was expanded to full.four times the space; by the time it had gone a quarter part it was shut; then it was expanded; it was entirely cooled by itself; but when it came to touch the cold sides of the cylinder, it hung about them like a dew. The moment there was a com¬ munication to the condenser, that instant it expanded, and it threw itself into a second ; the next stroke threw that heat again into the side ■ of the cylinder, the weight of the cylinder was about six tons; if it had taken out one degree each time, that would have taken out more than the engine burnt. There is a clear proof how quick cold will con¬ dense. [ Doc. No. 101. 3 75 Are there not steam engines in which the cylinder is within the boiler? Yes; those are commonly used now in the high pressure steam engines.. Have you ever considered what toll should be charged upon steam car¬ riages, assuming that a steam carriage of 40 cwt. is equal to four horses, and does no more damage than four horses would do upon a road? I should judge that there would be no need to fix them heavier than just to pay for repairing the road, whatever it may be; people are not to get their mainte¬ nance out of roads; and if the steam carriages do not injure the roads half as much as a common carriage, they should not pay hdlf so much. You do not suppose that a steam carriage weighing four tons would do more injury than a horse carriage? A steam carriage with the same weight would do nothing like the same injury as a horse coach, for they have nar¬ row wheels and these have not; and there are no horses' feet. Your opinion is, that there should not be a higher toll charged upon those steam carriages than upon a coach drawn by four horses? If the toll is charged according to the injury done to the road, it would be not more than half. Do you conceive there would be any difficulty in applying steam carriages to the present roads with the present ascents? Under the present circum¬ stances there is a difficulty. It is a question whether it. shall go over the road, for the weight is too great; but if the weight is done away, and three to one in power added, it will be possible to do it, and I have no doubt it will be effected on my principle. You think that the steam engines already prepared would go on the com¬ mon roads? They are between sinking and swimming at present, and I think they will swim: I think that the improvement is effected, and that they will do. Would it not lighten the weight of engines if you had fixed stationary engines to pump gas, fifty atmospheres for instance; and shift the vessel con¬ taining it at each stage? We do not want air or gas. Something that has a power to drive? A vessel that weighed that would be so heavy, it would not carry its own weight; the vessel it was compres¬ sed into would be of considerable weight; a cubic inch of water will fill a cubic foot. In the application of your power to a steam carriage, do you suppose there would be less danger of bursting than at present exists? Yes; this cannot burst; that is prevented. Have the goodness to state your reason? There are fivq separate cylin¬ ders, the one encircled in the other; and if the hoiler, or the inner circle burst, there are four other circles that might take the pressure, one after the other, before it can externally explode, which outer circles are never heat¬ ed; and the boiler can never be heated or low, because the steam that is made use of by the engines is returned every stroke into the boiler, and provided an engine is tight, it may work forever without a fresh supply of water. What height would the shaft be, as applied to your steam carriage,? It does not require to be higher than a common steam carriage. Have the steam carriages that now ply on the roads a shaft? No; they get the fuel through a fire door, but it will answer best to fill through you get considerable advantage. In the first place you have a less boiler; by having a less boiler it is lighter; it is much stronger by getting a greater 76 [ Doc. No. 101. ] pressure; there is 75 per cent on, !,he fuel. If you take the average of the advantages, it will save daily nearly ten to one on travelling engines. That will render it necessary to have a chimney in a steam carriage? A chimney is not necessary for the sake of draught if there is a forced draught. The engine of which I have produced a drawing, is made for a ship, where we are not bound to height, but five or six feet would be quite sufficient. Do you apprehend that, in your engine, there would be any noise from fric¬ tion, so as to alarm horses? No more than in any other engines; there is no more noise; whether the steam is generated in the same way or how it is conducted, makes no difference. With what would you work? With coke; that would be the most con¬ venient. Do you think the road would suffer less damage from the carriage itself containing the engine conveying the passengers, or conducting another carriage intended to convey passengers? I think it better to have separate carriages for the roads, as well because there is less weight upon the wheels; The weight would be more equally divided on the four wheels; but there will be six wheels in a general way I think. The two fore wheels will bear very little weight. Might not a single truck wheel do for that? It would not be steady. Mercurii, 17° die Jiugusti, 1831. Mr. Richard Trevilhick, again called in, and examined. Are there any additional observations you wish to make to the commit¬ tee?—There are. I was asked what 1 had performed, and what was my opinion as to whether steam power could be made useful on common roads in general, and the difference in effect between broad and narrow wheels on such roads, respecting their breaking up or settling down the surface, and what farther advantages I might expect from my late improved steam en¬ gine? In answer, I beg to say, in 1804 I invented and introduced the high- pressure steam and locomotive engines, and, also, in 1813, invented the iron tanks and buoys for his Majesty's navy. In 1814, I was engaged by the Spanish Government to construct in England nine high-pressure steam en¬ gines, and a mint, with pump-work, and every thing complete for draining the great mines of Paseo, in Peru: they weighed 500 tons, in 20,000 pieces, the boilers each of six tons weight, all in single plates, and the cylinders each in six pieces, all carried up the mountains on mules' backs, and put to¬ gether on the spot, by which the mines were effectually drained, the ores wound up, stamped, smelted and coined; they remained in full work until the Spanish army retreated through the mines before the patriots, and, on their retreat broke the engines, and threw them into the engine pits. For a report of my progress in Peru, see the first number of the Geological transactions of Cornwall, copied from the Lima Gazettes. In reply to the questions put to me by the committee of the House of Comrrfons, respecting the probable process of steam power for loco¬ motive purposes, I beg to say, on railroads, they have been proved to be useful to a certain extent, but are still defective, on account of their great weight of.machinery and water, and the difficulty of getting water at all times, also a want of permanent safety against explosion; but, from a [ Doc. No. 101. ] 77 a late improvement of mine, these obstacles are novv removed, and when these late improvements are combined with my former locomotive engines, they can be constructed so light as to travel at almost any speed, and thou¬ sands of miles, without a supply of water, and the risk of exploding is re¬ duced to an impossibility, with a saving of considerably above fifty per cent, in fuel; all those improvements will appear in my statement hereafter. Tra¬ velling on common turnpike roads would be by far the greatest national ad¬ vantage, but which, on the present plan, never can be accomplished, be¬ cause the difficulties of getting a supply of water, and the inequalities of the surface of the roads, will always, under these circumstances, prevent the limited povverto ascend the hills; and this objection is irremovable, because, as the power at present increases, the weight increases in nearly the same ratio. At the present moment, we havfe a proof of this, from the engines travelling on common level roads being as nearly as possible in equilibrium, their power just capable running their own weight at a fair speed on a level surface; and they now only wait an increase of their power, independent of weight, to accomplish their general adaption to every purpose, both on the road and also to agriculture; and as the expense of fuel bears so small a proportion to horse labor, the removal of the present objections would accommodate their general use to unlimited advantages that the public àre anxiously in search of. As the axles of steam carriages require to be straight, and the wheels perpendicular, there remains no objection to employing any width of wheel that the road inspectors require, which, to a certain extent, will reduce the resistance, instead of increasing it. It is my opinion, that all wheels now in use on common roads are much too narrow; but this ought to be accom¬ modated to the materials that the road is formed with: for instance, narrow wheels on an iron road do not yield to the pressure of the weight, but keep themselves perfectly horizontal, and do not pulverize; but every Macadamized road, more or less, is subject to this inconvenience, and the narrower the wheels, the greater mischief is done to the road, and more resistance is given to the horses. The usual notion, that wheels grind the road, is wrong; if any difference, it is the roads grind the wheels, the road-material being generally the harder of the two; but the roads are injured by the wheels crushing the stone, by a narrow surface bearing on small points, or on sin¬ gle stones, the tenacity of which will not support the weight under narrow wheels: under wide ones, they would sustain no injury, because the wide wheel reduces its weight on each inch of surface in contact with the road, as the number ot surface inches is increased by its additional width, and settles down the road firmly, and gives each stone a side support also. Therefore, by double the bearing on the road, half the weight is taken off from every bear¬ ing surface inch; and that, in addition to the side support, by being bedded firmly, a wide wheel will, I have no doubt, save four out of five, if not nine out of ten stones that are crushed at present, and reduce the road expenses in the same proportion; but while the fancy of having carriage-wheels out of upright with crooked axles is continued, wide wheels would be a serious ob jection. The inside and outside of the wheel being of different diameters, and going different speeds, must cause an increase of load to the horses, because their rubbing on the road and tendency to twist move the stones out of their bed in the road, and, instead of bedding them firmly, has the contrary ef¬ fect. Another great evil arises from the use of narrow wheels: they sink lower into the road, and the road being in part elastic, whatever that may be, is a resistance added to the horses according to its perpendicular rise aai 78 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 fall. The passing over sand or snow gives a proof of this on a larger scale, and wide surfaces will bed snow, and form a firm road, w'mle narrow sur¬ faces would defeat the effect. Another proof of wide surfaces bedding firm¬ ly is seen in Cornwall, where the mills for stamping the ores in the mines have steam engines in constant work, lifting twelve inches high iron stam¬ pers of three or four hundred weight, of about seventy inches of bearing: at the bottom surface these form their own bed, which is about a foot thick of Macadamized stones, and are an everlasting foundation, though the stamps pulverize at the surface as fine as sand. It would be advisable for the fore and hind wheels of carriages to run about half the track out of a line from each other, because the bank that is formed by the fore wheel would be re- bedded by the hind one, and the leveller the road is kept, the less the jolts, and of course the shoaler will be the ruts, while the surface of the road re¬ mains sound, and even the wear is scarcely any thing, and the crushing cannot take place but in a very small degree; because the small gravel, bind¬ ing uniformly with the larger stones, supported on every side, brings the whole surface into uniform contact with the wheel, in which state but very little injury can be done; but when uneven or broken, the loose stones roll about without a support, and kept so by narrow wheels, they independently receive the whole weight of the wheel, and, instead of being bedded down, are crushed to powder. The unnecessary resistance given to carriages and wear of roads by narrow wheels, far exceeds all conception. Asa proof that locomotive wheels will not injure the roads by slipping round, I give you the copy of a report printed on the performance of the locomotive engines on the Manchester road for the premium. The following calculation, loun- ed on the reported result, was made by Mr. Vignoles and Mr. Price, of Neath Abbey. The maximum number of strokes was 142 per minute, while 440 yards were traversed in 43 seconds; diameters of wheels 50.1 inches, circumference 157.4 inches; 157.4+142 inches, equal to 621 yards, being the velocity per minute of the circumference of the wheel, or 21 miles and 300 yards per hour: then as 60 seconds is to 621 yards, so is 43 seconds to 445 yards. Thus, the calculated distance of the run, considering the wheel as a perambulator, agrees within five yards with the space actually passed over, and this difference might arise from the most trifling inaccura¬ cy, of noting the time, a quarter of a second at each end being sufficient to produce this discrepancy, so that it might fairly be concluded there was no slipping of the wheels at a velocity of nearly 22 miles an hour with a load. If wheels will not slip round on iron roads, there can be no doubt but that they will be firm on common roads. A steam carriage never needs the wheel chained, or to be still in going down hill, because, if a throttle cock is put between the discharge pipe and the piston, it cannot go down hill any faster than the steam is permitted to make its escape from bpfore the piston, and, if required, would stand still intstantly. Below is stated the commence¬ ment of both my high pressure and locomotive steam engines, with the ad¬ vantages derived from them. Since 1804, at which time I invented and erected this high pressure engine, up to the present time, little improve¬ ment has been made in addition to my own. The first locomotive engine ever seen was one that I set to work in 1804, on a railroad at Merthyr Tydvil, in Wales, which performed its work to admiration, a correct copy of which is now in general use on the railroad. The advantages gained by this improvement was a detached engine, independent of all fixtures, work¬ ing with five times the power of Boulton and Watt's engine, without con- [ Doc. No. 101. 1 79 densing water, and the fire enclosed in the boiler surrounded with water, and a forced draught created by the steam for the purpose of working on the roads without a high chimney; and from this was copied all the boilers for navigation engines, which, without it, could not have been available; this being independent of brick work, light, safe from fire, and occupying little room. In March, 1830, Davies Gilbert, esquire, then president of the Royal Society, wrote a treatise on the improvement made in the efficiency of the largest steam engines in the world, then working in Cornwall, in which he states, that, in 179S, he made trial of Boulton and Watt's engines in that county, and found the average duty performed in the mines was I7,62I,0U0 lbs. lifted one foot high with one bushel of coals; and, in 1830, when he published his treaise on the improvement of the steam engines in the Cornish mines, he says, that the improvement was so great that a duty of 75,628,000 lbs. lifted one foot high, with the same quantity of coals, was then performing in the mines; that when compared with the duty done in 1795, the improvement exceeded Boulton and Watt's engines, as 3.865 to 1, or 27 to 7 nearly; and exceeded the standard of the old atmospheric engines, that were at work in 177S, as 10.75 to 1, (at present some of the best en¬ gines have performed a duty of 90 millions with a bushel of coals,) and the result of this great improvement has been, that not one engine on Boulton and Watt's plan remains at work in Cornwall; and it is acknowledged by all the Cornish miners that this improvement solely has been the salvation of their deep and extensive mines, without which the mines could not have continued to work; but, from this increase of power and speed, a duty and saving both in fuel and size of four to one, which has caused the saving of coals in the Cornish mines alone to exceed one million sterling, and a con¬ stant saving of above'one hundred thousand pounds per year. The saving of fuel in theory, by working with high steam, is 75 per cent, every time that the elasticity of the steam is doubled, because double the quantity of coals doubles the pressure, aud increases the bulk three-eighths, and by this steam expansively three-eighths more are gained, and not only theory but practice proves that gain on all the Cornish engines. The usual height of steam is sixty pounds above the atmosphere, but if the boilers could be made safe against explosion and work with much higher steam, the advan¬ tages would almost exceed limit. The accidents that have taken place by ex¬ plosion, do not appear to be from overloading the safety-valve, but from overheating the boiler, because low pressure boilers have often exploded, and this generally takes place immediately on setting the engine to work. When the boiler is under water guage it must be red hot, and while the en¬ gine is standing, the water in the boiler is still, but the moment that the en¬ gine starts, the sudden escape of steam from the boiler to the cylinder Causes a great ebullition of the water, and splashes it over the red hot sides, which instantaneously generates a superabundant quantity of steam more than the strength of any boiler, however strong, can sustain; because one pound of melting iron will boil three pounds of water, therefore the red hot tubes of a boiler, to be suddenly cooled by water splashing over them, would immediately generate a hundred times as much steam as the space of the boiler would contain: therefore, while the feed is so uncertain, and the height of water fluctuates so much in the boiler, no permanent safety can be relied on, however light the safety-valve may be loaded, or strong the boiler may be. Boilers fed with salt or even foul water are dangerous; they are often incrusted with salt, repeatedly heated red hot, and quickly reduced in sub- 80 [ Doc. No. 101. ] stance and strength. To prevent the salt accumulating, a constant stream of boiling water is ejected Irom, and cold water in its stead injected into the boiler, which occasions a constant fluctuation in the height of water in the boiler, and requires a constant caution in the engineer to prevent mischief. A proof that boilers do not explode from the regular working pressure of steam, is by the portable gasholders of one-sixteenth of an inch thick and ten inches diameter being regularly charged with thirty atmospheres, or 450 pounds to the inch, without accident: and though this pressure is not one- half the pressure that the theory of the strength of iron would bear, yet boilers have often exploded, though the safety-valves have never been loaded with one-eighth part of the pressure of the gas holders, or one-sixteenth of the pressure of the theory of the strength of iron in proportion to the strength and diameter of boilers, when compared with gas holders; therefore, perfect safety never can be relied on under the present regulations. To remove these serious evils, save fuel, and give a considerable increase in the pow¬ er of engines with less space and weight, I have made an entire new engine, both in principle and arrangements. The fire-place, boiler and conden¬ ser are formed of six wrought iron tubes standing perpendicular on their ends, encircled the one within the other for the purpose of safety, and to occupy little room, also for keeping the boiler to one constant gauge, with fine distill¬ ed water, permanently working without loss, by condensing the steam and never suffering it to escape out of the engine, but returning it from the con¬ denser back again into the boiler every stroke of the engine by a force pump; and where an engine is perfectly tight, it would work for ever with¬ out a replenish of water. But, to supply, leaks a small evaporating apparatus is used for supplying the deficiency with distilled water, which effectually prevents any fluctuation in the height of water in a boiler or collecting sedi¬ ment, and an impossibility of ever getting the boiler red hot, there being no space for the water to fly to out of the boiler but into the condenser: and this is so small, that if, by any means, the force pump did not return the water regu¬ larly from the condenser to the boiler, the space in the condenser, by taking one inch in depth of water out of the boiler, would fill and glut the condenser so, that the engine would stand still, and, as the water cannot diminish, it does not requre a large quantity of water, or water space in the boiler, so neces¬ sary in other engines, to guard against fluctuation in the feed, and prevent the boiler becoming red hot. The boiler being considerably less, the strength and room will be increased, and, never getting hot, the engine might be worked with much higher steam; if so high as the gas-holders are charged with, the theory gives a saving of fuel, weight and room, over low pres- snre engines of sixteen to one, without a supply of water, f state this to show the probable advantages that will arise from this new engine. For my engine to be one hundred horse power, to raise sufficient steam, the fire tube must be three feet diameter, which would give the boiler a diameter of three feet eight inches; and that a half inch thick, according to the theory of the strength of iron, would sustain a pressure of 1,736 pounds to the inch, which is four times as great as the gas-holders are charged with, and thir¬ ty-two times the pressure that the high pressure engines work with at present, which is still farther proof that the explosions have been solely oc¬ casioned by the boilers being under water gauge, and heated red hot. If, after boilers have been forced on their trial by cold water pressure, to stand ten times the pressure that they are to be worked at, and a boiler should happen to explode, the shock would be first received by the next surrounding [ Doc. No. 101. 3 81 tube, and so on for six successive surrounding tubes; each space between the tubes would admit the steam to escape gently up the chimney without harm, and the outside tube that encircles the whole, might be made of three quarters of an inch thick, so that it would put injury from explosion beyond possi¬ bility, The arrangement of this new engine embraces every advantage that can be wished for; safety, saving of fuel, lightness, little room, cheapness, simplicity, and nearly independent of water, it can be made applicable to any purpose, and, much more effectual than horse power, the first cost of erection far less than a quarter the cost of horses, for the duty performed, independent of the difference of expense between coals and horse feed, because a one horse engine will, by constant work, perform the work of four horses eve¬ ry twenty-four hours. For breaking up and tilling large commons, very liule establishment will be required. Another great national advantage will be gained, by the whole of the kingdom being abundantly supplied with fresh fish, as it will be in the power of every fishing-boat to get a small engine, and bring fish to market all round the coast while fresh, independent of wind: this may be carried by locomotive engines, in a few hours, to the in¬ terior of the country. Besides, every merchant ship will be propelled by steam, as an engine of ten tons weight on the deck, occupying very little more room than a ton cask, would propel a ship of 500 tons five miles per hour with sixpence worth of coals, and will also pump the ship, weigh the anchor, and take in and out the cargo. The principles of the leading pow¬ er being matured, all the applications will soon follow. Davies Gilbert, esquire, a member of the committee, examined. Have you paid any attention to the general nature and advantages of wheels and springs for carriages, the draughts of cattle and the form of roads? I paid considerable attention to it during the sitting of the committee of this House about twenty years ago, of which Sir John Sinclair was chairman; and I then drew up some observations on the nature of wheels and springs on roads, which, with some alterations, I printed in the eighteenth volume of the Journal of Sciences, and which I would beg to deliver into the commit¬ tee as the result of mjt observations on the subject. [ The same was read as follows:] " Taking wheels completely in the abstract, they must be considered as answering two different purposes. "First, they transfer the friction which would take place between a slid¬ ing body and the comparatively rough uneven surface over which it slides, to the smooth oiled peripheries of the axis and box, where the absolute quantity of the friction as opposing resistance is also diminished by lever¬ age, in the proportion of the wheel to that of the axis. " Secondly, they procure mechanical advantage for overcoming obstacles in proportion to the square roots of their diameters, when the obstacles are relatively small, by increasing the time in that ratio, during which the wheel ascends; and they pass over small transverse ruts, hollows or pits, with an absolute advantage of not sinking, proportionate to their diameters, and with a mechanical one as before, proportionate to the square roots of their diameters: consequently, wheels thus considered, cannot be too large; in practice, however the are limited by weight, by expense, and by convenience. "With reference to the preservation of roads, wheels should be mada wide, and so constructed as to allow of the whole breadth bearing at once; and every portion in contact with the ground should roll on it without the least dragging or slide; but, it is evident from the well-known properties of 11 82 [ Doc. No. 101. J the cycloid, that the above conditions cannot unite unless the roads are per¬ fectly hard, smooth and flat; and, unless the fellies of the wheels, with their tiers, are accurately portions of a cylinder. These forms, therefore, of roads and of wheels, are the models towards which they should always approxi¬ mate. " Roads were heretofore made with a transverse curvature to throw off water, and, in that case, it seems evident that the peripheries of the wheels should, in their transverse sections, become tangents to this curve, from whence arose the necessity for dishing wheels, and for bending the axes, which contrivances gave some incidental advantage for turning, for protect¬ ing the nave, and by affording room for increased stowage above. But re¬ cent experience having proved that the curved form of roads is wholly in¬ adequate for obtaining the end proposed, since the smallest rut intercepts the lateral flow of the water; and that the barrel shape confines carriages to the middle of the way, and thereby occasions these very ruts; roads are now laid flat, carriages drive different over every part, the wear is uni¬ form, and not even the appearance of a longitudinal furrow is to be seen. It may, therefore, conlidenllj' be hoped that wheels approaching to the cylindrical form will soon find their way into general use. "The line of traction is mechanically best disposed when it lies exactly parallel to the direction of motion, and its power is diminished at any in¬ clination of that line in the proportions of the cosine of the angle to ra¬ dius. When obstacles frequently occur, it had better perhaps receive a small inclination upwards, for the purpose of acting with most advantage when those are to be overcome. But it is probable that different animals exert their strengths most advantageously in different directions, and therefore practice alone can determine what precise inclination of this line is best adapted to horses, and what to oxen. These considerations are, however, only applicable to cattle drawing immediately at the carriage; and the con¬ venience of this draft, as connected with the insertion of the line of traction which continued, ought to pass though the axis of the wheels, introduces another limit to their seize. " Springs were in all likelihood applied at first to carriages, with no other view than to accommodate travellers. They have since been found to an¬ swer several important ends. They convert all percursion into mere in- i crease of pressure; that is, the collision of two hard bodies is changed by the interposition of one that is elastic, into a mere accession of weight. Thus the carriage is preserved from injury, and the materials of the road are not broken: and, in surmounting obstacles, instead of the whole carriage with its load being lifted over, the springs allow the wheels to raise, while the weights suspended upon them are scarcely moved from the horizontal level. So that, if the whole of the weight could be supported on the springs, and all the other parts supposed to be devoid of inertia, while the springs them¬ selves were very long, and extremely flexible, this consequence would clear¬ ly follow, however much it may wear the appearance of a paradox, that such a carriage may be drawn over a road abounding in small obstacles without agitation, and without any material addition being made to the moving power or draft. It seems, therefore, probable, that, under certain modifica¬ tions of form and material, springs may be applied with advantage to the very heaviest wagons, and consequently, if any fiscal regulations exist, either in regard to the public revenue or to local taxation, tending to dis¬ courage the use of springs, they should forthwith be removed. t £ Doc. No. 101. ] 83 "Although the smoothness of roads, and the application of springs are beneficial to all carriages, and to all rates of travelling, yet they are eminent- ly so in cases of swift conveyance, since obstacles, when springs are not inter¬ posed, require an additional force to surmount them beyond the regular draft, equal to the weight of the load multiplied by the sine of the angle in¬ tercepted pn the periphery of the wheel between the points in contact with the ground and with the obstacle, and therefore proportionate to the square of rts-herght; and a still further force, many times greater than the former when the velocity is considerable, to overcome the inertia, and this increases with the height of the obstacle, and with the rapidity of the motion both squared. But, when springs are used, this latter part, by far the most im¬ portant, almost entirely disappears, and their beneficial effects, in obviating the injuries of percussion, are proportionate also to the velocities squared. "The advantages consequent to the draft, from suspending heavy baggage on the springs, were first generally perceived about forty years since on the introduction of mail coaches; then baskets and boots were removed, and their contents were heaped on the top of the carriage. The accidental cir¬ cumstance, however, of the weight being thus placed at a considerable ele- ' vation, gave occasion to a prejudice, the cause of innumerable accidents, and which has not, up to the present time, entirely lost its influence; yet „moment's consideration must be sufficient to convince any one, that, when the body of a carriage is attached to certain given points, no other effect can possibly be produced by raising or by depressing the weight within it, than to create a greater or less tendency to overturn." I The extensive use of wagons suspended on springs, for conveying heavy /articles, introduced within these two or three last years, will form an epoch in the history of internal land communication not much inferior perhaps in importance to that when ma-il coaches were first adopted; and the extension of vans, in so short a time, to places the most remote from the Metropolis, induces a hope and expectation that, as roads improve, the means of preserv¬ ing them will improve also, possibly in an equal degree; so that perman¬ ence and consequent cheapness, in addition to facility of conveyance, will be distinguished features of the Macadam system. I have made some further remarks, which I would beg to deliver in also, pending to point out particularly the advantage of steam conveyance when the rate of travelling is great: I would beg to add, that it appears to me extremely difficult to lay down any general rule which would be applicable to'all situations and all roads, inasmuch as they vary with the nature of the materials: that up to a certain weight, proportionate to the corresponding width of the wheel, it is probable that the injury to any road may be very little, but that beyond a certain weight, compared again with a correspond¬ ing breadth of the wheels, the materials would be entirely crushed, and the road totally destroyed. Therefore it follows, that even on all roads there must be a limit to the weight of carriages, as it is quite impossible that a ( wheel of enormous breadth could bear uniformly on all its surface. For instance, where trains of artillery are drawn over roads, the excess of their weight beyond what materials are capable of sustaining, has been found sufficient for grinding them to powder. " The slow conveyance of heavy weights may perhaps be effected by steam on well-made and nearly level roads, so as to supersede the use of hors,es; but steam power is eminently tiselul for producing great velocities. It was last year determined by the Society of Civil Engineers, after much inquiry and discussion, that the 84 [ Doc. No. 101. ] • I expense of conveying carriages drawn by horses was at its minimum when the rate of travelling equalled about three miles an hour, and that ex¬ pense increased up to the practical limit of speed, nearly as the velocity; including the greater price of horses adapted to swift driving, their increased feed and attendance, the reduced length of their stages, and, with every precaution, the short period of their services. On the contrary, friction being a given quantity as well as the force requisite for impelling a giveri' weight up a given ascent, the power required for moving steam carriages on a railway remains theoretically independent of its speed, and practically increases but a very little, in consequence of resistances from the atmos¬ phere, slight impacts against the wheels, inertia of the reciprocating pis¬ ton, &c. The expenditure of what I have termed efficiency, is, as actudl force, multiplied by velocity, and the consumption of fuel in a given time will be in the same proportion, but the time of performing a given distance being inversely as the velocity, the expenditure of fuel will theoretically be constant for a given distance, and very nearly so in practice. The pow¬ er requisite for moving bodies through water is in the opposite extreme! here, the mechanical resistance of the fluid increases with the square of the velocity, as do the elevation of the water at the prow, and its depression at1 the stern. The oars or paddles must therefore preserve a constant ratio to the velocity of the vessel; and the force applied will consequently vary as^ the squares of the velocity; and the expenditure of efficiency being as the force multiplied by the velocity; the consumption of fuel will be as the cube of the velocity in a given time, or as the square of the velocity on a given space; and I have ascertained from the records of voyages performed by steamy vessels, that the law is nearly correct in practice: hence the great power, required for such steam vessels as are constructed not merely for speed, but also to set at defiance the opposition of winds and seas; while, on the contrary, a very small power will be found sufficient for moving ships of the largest dimensions through the water, at the rate of two or three miles an hour, when their sails are rendered useless by continued calms." Mr. Nathaniel Ogle, called in, and examined. What is your profession? I have no profession; I am pursuing the intro¬ duction of locomotive engines on common roads. ^ Have you invented any carriage of this description actually now in prac¬ tice? Yes, partly so. Have you run your carriage for any length of time on public roads? About 800 miles, or rather more, over roads of various descriptions, and up lofty hills. Will you describe, generally, the nature of your carriage, and of any im¬ provements you have made since yqu first turned your attention to the sub¬ ject? The object in all locomotive vehicles is to obtain a mode of genera¬ ting steam that shall give the command of a sufficient power, under all va¬ rying circumstances to be met with on the common roads. We have ob¬ tained that desideratum, by combining the greatest heating surface in the least possible space, with the strongest mechanical force, so that we work our present boiler at 250 lbs. pressure of steam on the inch, with the most perfect safety. Our\experimental vehicle, weighing about three tons, or rather more, we have propelled from London to Southampton, and on the roads in the vicinity of Millbrook, at various speeds. The greatest veloc£ ty we obtained, over rather a wet road, with patches of gravel upon it, was I [ Doc. No. 101. J 85 ■between 32 and 35 miles an hour, and might have been continued under similar circumstances, and we could, on a good road, have increased that velocity to 40 miles. We have ascended a hill with a soft wet bottom, rising one foot in six, at rather a slow rate. We have ascended one of the loftiest hills in the district near Southampton, at 161 miles an hour. We have gone from the turnpike gate at Southampton to the four mile stone on the London road, a continued elevation, with one very slight descent, at tárale of 241 miles an hour, loaded with people. The locomotive vehicles used on the Liverpool and Manchester railroad would-not go at three miles an hour on a common level road, and would not ascend any hill; and on ac¬ count of the diameter of their boilers, cannot, scientifically speaking, be con¬ sidered safe. The vehicle is under perfect control in every respect. No aocident from explosion can take place. We have had whole families of ladies, day after day, out with us in all directions, and who have the most perfect confidence. We are now upon the point of establishing a factory Where these vehicles will be made in numbers; and a great manyare already required by coach proprietors, carriers of merchandise, and others, for their use on the public roads. Railroads, excepting in very peculiar situations, are behind the age; and it is my decided opinion, that those who embark capital in constructing them will be great losers. Will you describe the form of your boiler? The base of the boiler and the summit aré composed of cross pieces, cylindrical within, and square Without; there are holes bored through these cross pieces, and inserted through the hole is an air tube. The inner hole of the lower surface, and the under hole of the upper surface-, are rather larger than the other ones. Round the air-tube is placed a small cylinder, the collar of which fits /ound the larger aperture on the inner surface of the lower frame, and the under surface of the upper frame work. These are both drawn together by screws from the top; these cross pieces are united by connecting pieces, the whole strongly bolted together, so that we obtain in one-tenth of the space, and with one-tenth of the weight, the same heating surface and power at$ is now obtained in other and in low pressure boilers, with incalculably greater safety. Our present experimental boiler contains 250 superficial feet of heating surface in the space of 3 feet 8 inches high, 3 feet long, and 3 feet 4 inches broad, and weighs about 800 weight. We supply the two cylinders with steam, communicating by their pistons with a crank axle, to |Se ends of which either one or both wheels are affixed as may be required. One wheel is found sufficient, excepting under very difficult circumstances, and when the elevation is about one foot in six, to impel the vehicle for¬ ward. Have you taken out a patent for this invention? We have, in the nam« of William Altoft Summers and Nathaniel Ogle. You state that the weight of that carriage is about three tons or more—is , that independent of ^he necessary load? That will include the coke and the water, but not the passengers. Have you any peculiar means for rendering explosion impossible? Yes$ (the cylinders of which the boilers are composed are so small as to bear a greater pressure than could be produced by the quantity of firs be¬ neath the boiler, and if any one of these cylinders should be injured by violence, or any other way, it would become merely a safety valve to the rest. We never with the greatest pressure, even, burst, rent or injured our ' boilers, and have not once required cleaning after having been in use twelve months. 86 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 \ Is the connexion between your different cylinders so perfect, that there is no danger of the steam collecting in one particular point of it? There is a perfectly free communication, and not the least danger to be apprehendejl. Have you one or two safety-valves! Two. At what pressure do you usually work your carriage? Two hundred and forty-seven pounds on the square inch of the boiler, but we have worked* it at a greater pressure than that. To what pressure do you usually weight your safety-valve? Two huivp dred and forty-seven pounds. Then you travel always on the lift? Yes; we are always glad to see our steam blowing off, and when our fire is even moderately good, it is always blowing off, even up the steepest hills, proving an excess of power. Does that create any annoyance to passengers along the road? None what-' ever; the waste steam is carried round a double casing of the fire place, then brought over the surface of the fire where some portion is consumed, and the rest passes off through a very small chimney in an aeriform state. V Do you use coal or coke? Soft and good coke which easily ignites and burns rapidly. x 1 You have not any annoyance then to passengers from smoke from your carriages? None, whatever; there is no appearance of smoke, except on light-,, ing the fire with wood, which is necessary to ignite the coke. That takes place before you start? Yes; but even that will not be neces. sary when every thing is arranged. * You state that your carriage is under the most perfect control? Perfect. Supposing you were going at the rate of ten miles an hour on a level', road, in what number of feet do you suppose you could entirely check the carriage? It would be difficult to state precisely the number of feet, buè. certainly in a less space than you could stop a pair of carriage horses going with the same weight attached to them. I have no hesitation in saying, that a steam vehicle is safer in every respect han one with horses, that it is under more complete management at the same velocities and with the same weight, that it is more easily controlled, and that none of the accidents from fractiou^ horses can take place with steam carriages. Do you find that horses are generally frightened by passing your car. riage? Very few indeed; persons usually alarm their own horses (the ani-'1 mal being quickly subject to alarm) either by dismounting or patting them, and thus anticipating apprehension. ft What rate of toll has been charged on your carriage in the neighborhood of Southampton? None, whatever. I have paid near London, when trying experiments, a shilling or two, and I made no inquiry. I remember going out of London, throwing one man a shilling, and another two, being too much occupied to trouble myself about the matter. You pass through turnpikes in travelling round Southampton? Yes. What is the reason they have not charged you? I do not know, unless they had the good sense to see that we rather do eood to the road than injury. Do you know on what authority they levy tolls on carriages? I know of only two instances in which they have been levied on steam carriages, ona » at Hammersmith bridge, and the other at Cambridge heath, near Hackney. If toll collectors at Southampton abstain from demanding tolls, is it not because they had not authority to demand them? I do not know their mo- tive. You think that the toll collector is so interested in the good state of the ' road, that he would abstain from demanding toll on that ground? I think [ Doc. No. 101. 3 87 that if they have contracted to keep the road in repair, they would be glad that steam vehicles should run upon that road in preference to carriages drawn by animals; because the wheels of steam carriages, if the tires are of a pro¬ per breadth, act as rollers. Do you know whether the toll collectors in general, contract for keeping the road in repair? I do not know. Do you know any instance of it? No, I do not. Have you heard any complaint by contractors of the injury done to roads from your carriages? No. Nor from the surveyors of roa f'H'y- To what breadth? With a given weight there might be given breadths; in my opinion a vehicle carrying four tons weight, the engine itself weigh¬ ing three tons, should have a tire about four inches and a half in breadth, a flat tire, not a round tire, and the wheels should be cylindrical. It is decid- , edly to the interest of steam coach proprietors to have the tires broad, as the wheels have a diminished tendency of sinking into the road. Should they be increased according to the weights? Yes, but I do not think that we have knowledge enough to speak precisely on that subject, and to go into minute details as to the exact breadth which should bear a given weight. Taking either an increased or a diminished weight, what would be the increased or diminished breadth of wheels which you would recommend? I am not prepared to answer that minutely. Is it your opinion, that, in case they exceed three tons weight, that wheels, three inches wide, improve the road, passing with the velocity they do? Certainly; the velocity has nothing to do with the wear of the road. How many wheels have you? Our present carriages have only three, so that the centre wheel rolls that portion of the road which has been cut up by the action of the horses' feet. Is it of the same breadth as the two hind ones? It is broader, being four inches and a half. Is the centre wheel a guiding wheel? It is. What portion of weight is upon that as compared with the others? That I must vary a little, but generally about one-third. Is yours a coach? No, it is a treble-bodied phaeton. How many passengers have you carried when you have gone at the rates you have described? I think 1 have seen nineteen; weight is of no import« ance to a steamer. Taking the weight of your carriage, with the engine, at three tons, what weight do you suppose that you could carry at the rates you have spoken of? Between three and four tons, very well. Besides its own weight? Yes. Doubling its own weight? Yes; twenty people will weigh more than a ton and a half. For what distance do you travel without taking in water?—We can in¬ crease our capability to a great extent; at present, we carry about seven hun¬ dred weight of water; it lasts about fourty minutes; that depends on the quality of the road. How much coke? The quantity we carry is according to the distance we wish to go. 88 [ Doc. No. 101. ] What weight of fuel would you think it necessary to take in, to go one of your averages stages? Three bushels. ' How much does a bushel weigh? That is difficult to answer, coke differs t in its weight; the average weight is about forty pounds a bushel. What proportion of injury do you think one of your steam carriages does to the road in comparison with the injury done by a coach drawn by horses proceeding with the same velocity? Not one half; first of all they receive no injury from the feet of the horses; a horse must have something to hold by, and the action of a horse's foot is to scrape and dig up the ground. Vehicles drawn by horses of equal weight, have usually narrower wheels, which must increase the injury done to the road. Are your wheels dished, or are they cylindrical? Cylindrical, with flat tires. < What are the diameters of your propelling wheels? We have generally used them about six feet; those we have now are about five feet six. Have you changed the diameters from experiment, from finding the smal¬ ler diameter more convenient? From finding some wheels with the spokes cut through, whether intentionally by the workmen, or from mere neglect, we could not tell; but they were merely reduced from six feet to five feet six. For a carriage calculated to carry eighteen persons, what would be the length, and what the breadth? I think that our next will measure eighteen feet six; that is not so long as a carriage with two horses: the breadth six feet nine inches between the wheefs. During the course of your experience, have you met with any accident, such as the breaking of your machinery? None whatever of any de¬ nomination; not one bolt, not one screw has ever given way, during a period of twelve months, and under circumstances which would have utterly de¬ stroyed any other carriage, and very much to the surprise of engineers, who are sadly uninformed on all points relative to steam coaches, and have never advanced their success. In the improvements you are now engaged upon in your carriage, are ihey relative to the size and weights of the different parts, or merely in the conveyance of the goods and passengers? They are more in improving slight details; the power we have beyond all question to propel vehicles of any weight, at any required velocity. Have you made many experiments as to the size of your cylinder? We have made several experiments. In reference to the usual velocity you require, and the weight you have to carry, what do you find the most advantageous size of cylinder? The larger the cylinder, certainly, the better; but wereT to give definite answers to such questions, it would be giving too much information to those opposed to us. What is the greatest weight that any steam engine you have ever built is capable of carrying ten miles an hour? About three tons, in addition to its own weight. The majority of the London engineers treated our opinions, founded on the laws of nature and experiment, with contempt and ridicule, and were amazed at witnessing the vigor of our engines, and the velocity with which we left the factory in Cablestreet, Whitechapel, and proceeded towards Shouthampton. Have your ever ascertained that that carriage, when loaded, weighs six tons? No, never. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 89 What was the greatest weight you ever weighed? We never weighed it at all. I can only speak from conjecture. I have seen nineteen persons on it, and seven cwt. of water. At what rate did you travel with that load? We went with that load up a considerable ascent, about thirteen • miles from Southampton; I should think, about from a quarter to half a mile. We travelled about ten miles an hour. How did you ascertain that rate—did you make accurate observations at the time? We knovv pretty accurately, by observation, at what rate we are going; but we can ascertain with the greatest minuteness, by knowing the number of revolutions made by a wheel of a certain diameter. When you were conveying those nineteen persons, how many horse power do you suppose was exerted by your machinery? Nearly twenty horse power. Jfou have stated that your carriages do not. do injury to roads, but are ra¬ ther a benefit; subsequently you have said that your carriages did not do half the injury of common carriages? Yes; if the tire of the wheel was Very broad, it would be no injury. Do you know the ordinary breadth of the tire of a stage coach wheel? About two inches or two and a quarter, varying a little. Do you know the weight of a stage coach, with its complement of eighteen passengers? Three Ions. What particular coach do you refer to? The Telegraph from London to Southampton, with its full load, has been reported tome, by its proprietors, to weigh about three tons. What would be the weight of your machine when loaded? Three tons, besides its load. What do you suppose the nineteen passengers weighed? A ton and a half certainly. The breadth of your tire is three inches? Yes. From your observation of the effect of a coach weighing three tons, and a two and a quarter inch tire going along a road, seeing the impression made upon the roads, and witnessing your own carriage weighing four tons and a half, with a three inch tire, what is the relative indentation or injury done to the road? Not greater, as far as I have ever been able to observe. Is it as great? I think not as great. Independent entirely of the injury that the four horses do to the road? Just so. Independent of that entirely. Can you suggest any mode by which tolls shall be fairly charged on steam carriages? I should say by their weight, with a deduction in favor of the steam engines, inasmuch as they do not the same degree of injury to the road as a vehicle drawn by horses. Do you think that the injury done by four horses on a road is greater than the injury done by the four wheels of the same carriage? Decidedly. Upon what data do you state that opinion? Because the animal must hold on as he goes; if he has a great weight behind him, he must hold tighter thaa if he merely carries his own weight. I do not know the number of strokes that a horse's foot must have gone in an hour, but it is a great number, and where there are four horses, those must be multiplied; and this, on a road moistened by the rain, must make great indentations, and tear up the surface: the transit being continuous, the road must suffer more than from the mere pressure of the tire over it. 12 90 . v [ Doc. No. 101. ] Do you state that as your opinion merely, or as the result of your observa¬ tion and practice? As the result of my observation and practice, and also from the deductions of reason. Where have you made those observations? In going about on horseback in my own steam vehicle, and my own carriage, I have observed the manner in which the road has been cut up. I have also observed the road, after it has been passed over by a steam vehicle, and have seen that part of the road we found injured by the horses' feet rolled over by the middle wheel. In what state was the road at the time? Rather-wet. Were the materials recently laid down, or consolidated? There were patches of gravel; and there the steam carriage was a decided advantage. Was it of more advantage than the wheel of an ordinary carriage? Yes, decidedly so. Do you conceive that the injury done by horses' feet is in the wearing of materials, or the displacing materials? In both. What is the nature of the injury which the wheel does? The wheel al¬ ways forms for itself a hill, and that hill is in exact proportion to the inden¬ tation. Do you mean to say that the hill is formed by the displacing materials? Yes there is a line, of the materials of which the road is composed, on both sides of the tire. If a road is properly constructed, will that take place? The harder the road, the less the indentation. Have you paid much attention to the construction of roads? Not much. Will you state more definitely the nature of the injury you have seen in regard to the effect of the horses' feet, in comparison to that of the wheels bf carriages? First of all they displace at every blow, they tear up, and throw the surface behind them; whereas the wheel only rolls as it goes, and throws some portion on both sides of it, if the road is soft. Do you know from your own knowledge how much the crust of an ordi¬ nary road round London will bear? No; it depends so much upon the nature of the road. Mr. Alexander Gordon, called in, and examined. Are you an egnineer? I am. Have you had much experience in the propelling carriages on common roads by steam? My principal experience in that has been whilst observing what Mr. Gurney has done. I have also been connected with locomotive engines, for which my father took out patents in 1822 and in 1824; and also with an engine that Mr. Brown attempted to propel by a gas vacuum engine in 1S24, 1825, and 1826. 1 have not had time to prepare a drawing, but I have made a small sketch of two distinct patents (producing the same) which my father had in 1822 and 1824. The one in 1822, was a machine, with a small high pressure engine in a drum ; as the drum advanced with a rolling motion, it moved, before it, a carriage body on two wheels, attached to the front of the large rolling drum. Subsequently, in 1824, my father discon¬ tinued his former plan, and took out another patent, in which his object was to substitute propellers instead of the driving wheel: for that purpose, he had propelling legs in the middle of the locomotive engine, similar to horses' legs and feet, working through the bottom of the body of the carriage against the ground, thus propelling the carriage onward. Mr. Gurney's progress in 1826 and 1827, showed clearly that this arrangement was not necessary in [ Doc. No. 101. ] 91 every case, but that one of the wheels of the carriage, when attached to the steam engine, had a sufficient hold of the ground to give progressing motiou to the carriage without using propellers; and the introduction of that inven¬ tion has subsequently been given up by me in consequence. Have both the plans you have given in been given up? Both. They were given up from prudential motives on my own part, as it was an bxpen- sive business to proceed with them. Mr. Gurney had made such great ad¬ vances, that it would have been throwing away money I think to have .gone on further with them. I found that the propelling fçet, shown in the mid¬ dle of the engine, do more injury to the roads than the propelling wheels. Have you been engaged in running stage coaches? I was engaged in run¬ ning a stage coach with horses four years ago; and since this committee com¬ menced their examination, I have been making some calculations as to the comparative wear and tear of the road by horses' feet and coach wheels; and I consider that the te3r and wear of the horses' shoes is very much greater than that of the tires of the wheels. I know it to be so. A set of tires will run 3,000 miles in good weather, or on the average 2,700 miles, while a set of horses' shoe will travel only 200 miles. Take the square inches of the rubbing surface, I think the rubbing surface of the wheel, on an ordinary road, to be somewhere about sixteen square inches; I am taking a gravelly road. Do you mean to say that if a coach was standing still, there would be a segment of the wheel of eight inches touching the ground? On a gravelly road, with a dished wheel, it is about that; and I take the average of sixteen square inches, because all tires are not limited to two inches width: some of them area little more; 1 take sixteen inches as the standard on the average quality of roads. You state that eight inches of the wheel are imbedded in the road in ordinary cases? That is the fact. I took the whole together at the average. With the front wheels it would not be so much, on all occasions, as on the hind wheels. I take the average, allowing for this variation. Do you give this answer from actual experiments? From observation. Having measured that part of the wheel which touches the road? I can¬ not say that I have put my rule to it; but I mean to say a segment of eight inches is pretty accurate. If it is on a perfectly hard road, in dry weather, the load will almost be a mere tangent to the circle; but on a soft road, in damp weather, the wheel will make more or less of a rut, and the average depth of the rut will give the average for the segment. Will you give the. proportion of surface for the horses' feel? I think twelve square inches superficial for one horse-shoe. I cannot say that I have measured it. What is the weight of the carriage which you say imbeds itself eight inches? I take the weight of the ordinary post coaches, when fully loaded, to be somewhere about three tons. I principally rest my opinion, as to the comparative tear and wear, upon the wear of the horses' shoes when com¬ pared with the wear of the tires. A horse, aftera run of 200 miles, must be shod; and after^i run of 3,000 miles, in dry weather, a coach must have new tires. 9 From thence you infer that the wear of the two is in proportion to those numbers? I think it must be thereabout; that is, setting aside altogether for the present, the consideration that the horses' movement is a series o , thumps and picks, while the wheel it a roller. 92 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 Is not the iron of the wheel thicker than that of the horses' shoe? Yes; to keep the wheel firm. Do you not infer, from the action of the horse's hoof upon the road, that the injury would be great in proportion? I think that the action of the horse's foot on the ground is more destructive to the road: there is more tear and wear to the road by the horse's shoe than by the tire. In rolling two tons along the ground, on four wheels, there will be no less damage done than by driving four horses without drawing any thing after them along the same ground. Have you made any observations as to the relative wear of the shoes of riding horses compared vvith those of horses employed in carriages? INo; I now speak from circumstances which came to my knowledge when I was connected with running a stage. Have you had an opportunity of comparing the wear of the wheels of a steam carriage with the wear of the wheels of a carriage, supposing they run equal distances and carry equal weight? I have seen Mr. Gurney'sproceed¬ ings from the beginning to the present time, and in riding with him, I have very narrowly observed the driving wheel to see whether it ever made a surd, (that is to say) made a slip or missed its hold of the ground; and that has so seldom happened, that I do not think it can do much more injury than any other wheel, indeed I might say none; if it does, it is very trifling. You speak of the propelling wheel? Yes. Do you know the weight of Mr. Gurney's carriage? I know the weight of Mr. Gurney's carriage from having been told. I take the weight of Mr. Gurney's present locomotive engine when it carries six or eight persons, to be nearly as heavy asan ordinary four horse carriage without the weight of its horses, that is, about three tons with coke, water and passengers. Are you speaking of the comparative injury to the roads done by Mr. Gurney's carriage and a four horse coach? Yes. Which do you think does most injury to the road? I should think it must be the same thing, carrying a great weight on any four wheels of equal diameters and surfaces: it will amount to the same thing. Does not that suppose that the tire is of the same width? I take the tires to be the same. That is independent of the four horses? Yes. Then the injury done by the four horses is in addition? Yes. Have you observed what the proportion is of the damage done by four horses drawing a coach, and the four wheels of a coach? I cannot say that 1 have made any observation upon that further than the tear and wear of the shoes, and the tire. I have seen the ruts in a narrow road and the horses' path between them; viewing these and viewing the towing path on the side of a canal and between the rails of railroad, 1 should think that the horses do fully more harm than the wheels. Do you think that the action of the horse's feet on a towing path will do more injury than on a road? Yes; but the action of the horse's feet on a tow¬ ing path is not quite the same as when he is carrying a weight or pulling a weight directly after him. The horse hauling on a canal lias a motion side¬ ways, and leans to the side farthest from the boat, platt in 14(91 is feet: this is a more destructive action than that of horses' feet on a road. Have you found that there is any tendency to slip in Mr. Gurney's car¬ riages in going up a hill covered with new stones? When the surface of the road is not firm, there is a tendency to slip; and when I said there was [ Doc. No. 101. ] 93 merely a fraction more of injury done by that wheel than by the others, I was taking such cases into account. Do you think that the injury that steam carriages do to the roads will be exactly in proportion to their different weights, taking the same breadth of the tire? I cannot state the proportion; if you increase the weight, you must increase the breadth of the tire: at different speeds, the injury will dif¬ fer. Taking the same breadth of tires, and the same velocity, do vou conceive the injury to the road increases in exact proportion to the weight; for in¬ stance, that a steam carriage of two tons will do only half the injury that a coach of four tons would do? I do not know that it will be exactly in these proportions; but it will be somewhat similar. Then supposing that a steam coach carrying two tons, had tires of a breadth of three inches, and that a steam coach carrying four tons had the tires of the wheels of the breadth of six inches; do you think that the injury would be proportionate? I think that there would be nearly the same amount of injury. Suppose you increase the weight so as to break through the crust of the road? If you put a very heavy weight, you will break the crust of the road altogether, no doubt. Do you think that could be obviated by increasing the breadth of the tire of the wheel? To a certain extent; but you may increase the weight so much as to pulverize the material of the road, even with a broad lire. llave the observations you have made been founded on actual experiment or not? It is on observation; I have observed the action of Mr. Gurney's wheels very narrowly on the roads, because I was interested in another pa¬ tent that was to introduce propellers in the middle of the locomotive engine as shown in the drawing produced. 1 Have you observed them under different ascertained weights? No great Variety. • Upon an ordinary road, is the injury done by a stage coach or by a steam carriage so great as to be apparent at each time that carriage travels along the road? Whenever you see a mark left by a wheel, you are entitled to say there is an injury done to the road to the extent of the rut. Do you state that if it is merely a mark on the soft surface of the road? Yes, from the wheel being at all imbedded in the soil; the water gets in and soaks its way through. If it is in frosty weather, the water and the damp get down, and the alternate freezing and melting destroys the road. In an ordinary road, is the impression of the wheel of a stage coach upon the solid surface of the road so great as to make the injury apparent every time the carriage passes over it? It is apparent to me, because, wherever there is a mark upon the road, there is a consequent injury. Whether that mark is merely the impression of the wheel on the soft mud or dust, or by crushing the materials? Wherever the road is damp, the con¬ sequence of the mark, however slight, tends to destroy the road. • Do you mean whether on the soft mud on the road, or on the solid sub¬ stance? The road must be destroyed to some extent; I do not say that it is perceptible. Myou put out of consideration the surface, the mere mud, it is not perhaps perceptible at the time, but there must be tear and wear goinj on on the road, or it will last for ever. I do not now talk of the action of the elements. On what data do you state that the steam carriage does not do more injun 94 [ Doc. No. 101. ] than the wheels of a stage coach? Because it does not make a deeper rut. Does either of them make a rut? If you suppose the road to be a concrete mass, and that there is merely a little mud and dust on the top of it, I cannot prove that a four horse coach does any perceptible injury to that road. I will say also a steam carriage will, in a similar case, do no perceptible in¬ jury to it. Of course, if the road was composed of solid rock, you would not be able to tell whether a coach of any description had gone over, there being no mark left, but talking of ordinary turnpike roads, should you be able to trace the indentation that coach made? Yes. Would you not be able to do the same with the steam carriage? Yes; there are some roads in England, apart of the Holyhead road, for instance, so well made that you cannot trace any vestige of injury done in good weather. A part of Mr. Telford's road there is a concrete mass. Do you know whether that road has ever been mended since it was first made? I suppose it has. Should you not say that the injury done to the road by a carriage passing over it, depends greatly on the state of that road, whether damp or dry, or otherwise? • Certainly. Are there any states ih which a road is placed in which no injury is done by a carriage passing over it—take the case of a hard frost for instance? No perceptible injury is done in that case, if the road is so hard that the wheel makes no mark upon it. But where the road is at all soft, and when the wheel sinks into that road, it must destroy the road: if it be merely in mud on the surface of the road, it is making a cistern to hold a puddleof water. The greatest injury done to the road, will be just after the. breaking up of a frost? Yes; or in fact after the effect of the frost, the water having got into the interstices, has been frozen and expanded. When it thaws, the road is not so compact, it is soft and pulpy. That is the state in which the greatest injury will be done to the road by a heavy weight passing over it? Yes. Have you ever, in such a particular state of the road, observed the injury done by a stage coach drawn by horses, and that by a carriage propelled by steam? I have seen the locomotive engine travelling in the month of Janu¬ ary, and also the ordinary carriages, and I cannot see that the locomotive engine has done any more injury than an ordinary carriage. The destruction on the road after a frost is much greater than in other cases. Have you made observation as to the effect on the road by each carriage when the road was in the worst state? I have seen them exactly at the same time and in the same circumstances. In the month of October, when there had been a considerable deal of rain, and the old road to Barnet, down by Stanmore, was very soft in consequence of the rain, I have seen the effect of a locomotive engine, and the effect of the Hemel Hempstead coach running along side of each other, and I consider that there was no difference at that time. I was then watching the action of Mr. Gurney's wheels, and particu¬ larly his driving wheel, with that view. I put the horses out of the case Was there any perceptible difference in the damage done? None, that [ perceived. 9 What are the effects on the wear of the road, by increasing the velocity of the steam carriage? I have not observed that, but it must be less. Sup¬ pose you are carrying a weight on a road slowly after a frost, you will break he crust; but travelling at a greater rate over it, it will not have thatefféct; he frozen crust will remain unbroken. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 95 Have you observed the effect on the road, by increasing the diameter of the wheels? I cannot say that I have seen that. In Mr. Gurney's carriage, the wheels do not always follow in the same track? Sometimes they do, and sometimes they do not. Under those circumstances, supposing equal weights on the four wheels, it would be easy for you to observe whether the wear of the fore and hind wjpeels was the same? I never observed any perceptible difference in the injury. A considerable proportion of the wear of the road is to be attributed to the atmosphere, without reference to the carriages which pass over it? Yes; the most destructive element in nature is water; and, in the course 9I the winter, the action of the water that gets sucked up into the road is very bad, and the very washing is also very bad. Are they many states of the road in which a wide tire is of considerablè advantage to the roadi Yes. In the majority of cases do you think the superior width of the tire which the steam carriage has over a carriage drawn by horses, is altogether an advantage or a disadvantage? A wide tire has the advantage upon the aver¬ age. And the steam carriage has that advantage over the other? Of late, Mr. Gurney has increased the width of his tire: it was at all times wider, but he has increased it still more. Does the width of the tire impede the velocity at all? Scarcely in a per¬ ceptible degree. Are you of opinion that a wide tire, under any circumstances, does in¬ jury to a road in any state of it? I have made no observation as to its doing an injury. Complaints have been made'that a great inconvenience arises to passen¬ gers along the road from the use of these carriages, from the horses being frightened in consequence of the peculiar noise; the smoke, and the letting off the steam? have you seen any inconvenience of that kind? I have seen one case where a gig ran off for about 200 yards, and was then stopped without any accident. I have also seen the same thing happen with a stage coach; it is a common thing with a young shy horse. I have seen Mr. Gurney's coach at work in the barrack yard, in the Regent's park, and have not seen the horses frightened these. Should you say you have seen a much greater number of cases of horses being frightened and running away attending the use of steam carriages than of common coaches? My experience in steam carriages is limited, and so must be that of every one when compared with the experience had with ordinary coaches. I have seen Mr. Gurney's engines, in going through the streets of London, and I have not seen horses frightened in any case: they may be shy, and prick their ears at it, but they have not started. Have you turned your attention to the question, how tolls should be fair¬ ly charged on such carriages? No. Mr. Joseph Gibbs, called in, and examined. Are you an engineer? I am. Were you brought up to that business? I was. Are you the patentee or proprietor of a steam carriage? I am patentee of a new method of more economically and safely generating steam, which I am applying to steam carriages. 96 [ Doc. No. 101. 3 Has it been practically carried into effect in steam carriages? No; I am building steam carriages, one of which is complete. I have been to Cheltenham to see the effect of a carnage there, and travelled nearly 100 miles between Cheltenham and Gloucester, with Mr. Gurney's carriage with that view. Did you find that any inconvenience arose to the persons travelling u|>on the roads from Mr. Gurney's carriage? I did not observe any particular inconvenience ; certainly the horses shyed a little. That may be accounted for from too great a quantity of fuel being consumed, which caused too great a smoke and vapor, but that will be reduced as improvements take place. Have you paid attention to the effect on the roads of Mr. Gurney's steam carriage? I have. Will you give the result of your observations? I conceive that steam car¬ riages do no injury to the roads further than the carriages at present in use; no horses being applied, there is so much diminution of injury to the road from the horses not being used: the wheels I do not conceive do any more in¬ jury than those of a stage coach, supposing them of both the same weight Then deducting the weight of the horses, do you conceive that the injury is the same, weight for weight? Precisely. What opportunity had you of examining the state of the roads after the carriage had passed over? I frequently went in a carriage attached to the steam carriage, passing behind it: my object was to know the right width a wheel ought to be made to obtain sufficient traction, and I never saw any mud displaced which was upon the wheel during its revolution. * I particu¬ larly remarked the indentations in the tire which will be made in conse¬ quence of the wheel coming in contract wilh the sharp flints upon the road; now if the wheel had slipped, the tire would have been graved or cut into small furrows, but that was not the case: I had the wheels cleaned in or¬ der to observe the effect. Did you go up any hills? The hill going into Gloucester. At what elevation? That I cannot say exactly; it isa considerable hill. Do you conceive great improvements will take place in Mr. Gurney's carriage? I conceive great improvements will take place in all steam car¬ riages; that they are in their infancy; that there are not yet sufficient practi¬ cal data to form a perfect judgment by as to the ultimate shape of the vehi¬ cle, arrangement of parts, and weight of machinery. Have you considered what would be the best mode of charging toll on such carriages? No; I have not yet paid attention particularly to that sub¬ ject. Is toll charged on Mr. Gurney's carriage? None was charged while I was there. Have you seen Mr. Hancock's carriage? I have. He carries his passengers—he does not draw them? No, he does not. Do you give the same result as to your experience of the injury from that carriage? Yes; except that Mr. Hancock's wheel is not cylindrical; it is rather conical, and a conical wheel must be more injurious to the roads than an upright one, although, in this case, the wheel being narrow, the differ¬ ence cannot be very great. On the principle on which you state that you are forming your carriages, shall you be enabled to diminish the weight greatly? The carriage I am now constructing weighs two tons, without water: it is made stronger, be¬ cause there are not any practical data yet respecting the parts. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 97 Veneris, 19 die dlngusti, 1331. Thomas Telford, esquire, called in, and examined. You are aware that the object of this committee is to ascertain, as far as acticable, how far the operation of carriages propelled by steam upon pub- : roads is more or less injurious than the operation of carriages drawn by irse^1 I hav^ never had any experience of steam carriages upon roads, d therefore 1 cannot say experimentally what effect they will produce, it if there is no projection upon the surface of the wheel, and they are not ffered to drag upon the road, it does not appear to me that any injury can se more, but rather less than by common carriages. Do you consider that, supposing the weight of a steam carriage were equal that of a carriage drawn by horses, that is two tons each, the injury done the road by horses or by the carriage would be the greatest? I should ex- c( that by the horses. In a much greater degree, do you conceive? I cannot exactly say the oportion, but I should think the greatest degree of injury arises from the irses' feet. ' What is the nature of the injury done to roads by the travelling" of rriages and horses? By the horses chiefly, by tearing up the surface th their shoes. I do not consider that the pressure of the wheels upon a od made road is nearly so injurious to the road as the. tearing up of the ad by the horses' feet. • Supposing that the operations of a steam carriage were so perfect that ere should be no sliding of the wheels, and that such steam carriage were four tons weight, and also that the joint weight of a coach and horses ;re four tons, travelling at equal velocity and with equal breadth of tire, aich do you think would do the least injury to the road? I should think at the steam carriage would do the least injury, but that is not from expe- ;nce of steam carriages, but only from my general information, always sing for granted that there is no projection outside the wheel. If, under those circumstances, the breadth of the tire of the carriage drawn ■ horses were two inches and a half, the usual breadth, and the breadth the tire of the steam coach were four inches, should you then have any ubt which would do the least injury to the road? I have already said if stires were equal, I conceive the steam carriage would do the least injury, d certainly the chance of injury will be lessened if the tire is made dou- e the breadth. If the breadth of the tire of the wheels of steam carriages could be ex- aded to six inches, might they not, in many'states of the roads, be rather neficial than injurious? Where the road is properly made, of good ma- rials and well consolidated, the mere pressure of a carriage would not have y effect. Do you think it would be fair to impose an equal toll, weight for weight, i steam carriages and on carriages drawn by horses? I think it ought not to ceed that. • Do you think that it ought to be equal, as the one carriage you state does it do so much injury as the other? In justice it ought to be diminished, it that is only opinion until it is proved. Have you paid any attention to the mode of charging toll on steam car- iges? I have not. 13 9S [ Doc. No. 101. ] Mr. William Mtoft Summers, engineer, called in, and examined. Are you practically acquainted with the operation of steam carriages on common roads? I am. Have you ever superintended the building of steam carriages? I have su¬ perintended the building of two steam vehicles. What was the weight of the lightest of those steam carriages? The light¬ est of the two was about two tons ten cwt. * * * Do you give that from guess or from actual weighing of the vehicle? From actual weighing of the vehicle. That was without the charge of fuel and water? Yes; without the charge of fuel and water. What would that add? The quantity of water we carried with that vehi¬ cle was five cwt., that carried us about eight miles, and the quantity of fuel we carried would be about four cwt. generally, that would last nearly double the time the water did: we always carried an extra quantity of fuel to meet any exigencies on the road. On the mean of the distance that would bring it to about four hundred and a half? Yes. Then the steam carriage, and the average charge of fuel and water, and the persons to guide it, would weigh about how much? About three tons two cwt. What is the greatest weight which you have known that carriage to be able to carry exclusive of its own weight and charge? I remember, in one instance, that we had ten persons upon it, and that we travelled with those ten persons at the average rate of about nine miles an hour. On what road did this vehicle you are speaking of, run? It ran from Cable street, Wellclose square, to within two miles and a half of Basing¬ stoke; (it was only an experimental journey—the same vehicle had run in various directions, about the streets and outskirts of London before;) that was the furthest distance we ran with it. Is it running at the present time? No. Why was it given up? When we arrived within about two miles and a half of Basingstoke, the crank shaft broke, and we were obliged to put it into a barge, and send it back to London. Is this a carriage of which the committee have had any information? No; the committee have had no previous information respecting this car¬ riage. Is this on the same principle as that described by Mr. Ogle? No it is not on the same principle. Have you a drawing of this carriage? I have not; but I can explain the principle pretty cltarly. , Have you abandoned the principle upon which this carriage was formed? Entirely; except that the boiler, with which it was furnished when we ran down to Basingstoke, was the same with which we travelled in the vehicle, of which Mr. Ogle has given a description. When you were travelling with those ten persons, did you try to increase the speed? Yes. You were not able to do it? We were not; because the size of our en¬ gines would not consume the quantity of steam generated by the boiler, and we were not able to go any faster, the engines not being calculated for taking a sufficient quantity of steam to produce greater speed. What was the size of the cylinder with which you worked? We had [ Doc. No. 101. ] 99 three cylinders, each four inches diameter, and the stroke of the piston twelve inches in each. ■ In the present carriages which you run on the Southampton road, what is the size of the cylinders? Seven inches and a half diameter each, and the stroke of each piston eighteen inches. Do you apply your power immediately from the piston to the crank? Through the medium of a connecting rod only. You have witnessed the operation of Mr. Ogle's carriage on the South¬ ampton road? I have always been with it. , 1 He has stated that the weight of that is about three tons? It is about three tons. , What is the greatest weight by actual experiments, exclusive of its own weight, that you have seen that carriage draw? We never weighed the present carriage; but I remember nineteen persons being at one time on the .■vehicle. To what distance did you carry the whole of those nineteen persons? We carried those nineteen persons a distance of about three miles and a half. Was that on a level road, or on a road with hills? We ascended two very considerable hills in the distance; it was in the New Forest. At what average speed did you travel with those nineteen persons? We travelled at the average speed of nearly ten miles an hour. What was the utmost speed with which you travelled? We ascended one of the hills at the rate of more than fifteen miles an hour. , What do you suppose to be the inclination of that hill, and what the length? I should think the inclination of that hill would not be less than and the width of their wheels is from 2a inches to 2è inches. Do you anticipate that steam will be applied shortly for the purpose of conveying goods in vans? I believe it will; I contemplate the putting some vans on the road to be worked by steam. Will such carriages be on four wheels, or on any greater number? I think it probable that they will be on a greater number than four wheels—from six to eight wheels. What do you conceive to be the maximum weight that ought to be placed on a wheel of three inches width? One ton and a half ought to be the ut¬ most limit. Jovis, 25° die Jiugvsti, 1831. Mr. James Stone, called in, and examined. What are you? An engineer. Have you had the superintendence of Sir Charles Dance's steam carriage? Yes, I have. On what road does it run, and how long mas it ran on that road? It was running regularly from the 21st of February to the 22d ctf June, inclusive. During that period has any accident occurred? Yes, by the breaking of the axletree. Mention the nature of the accident? We supposed it broke in conse¬ quence of an unusual quantity oi stones laid down upon that part of the road that was always the most difficult to pass over: but no accident as to the 108 [ *Doc. No. 101. ] bursting of the boiler, or any other thing took place, that occasioned any unpleasantness, or any thing like a serious accident as to injuring any per¬ sons. We had several little stoppages from defective tubes, of which the boil¬ er is constructed; but nothing accrued from that, except merely stopping the progress of the carriage. Was the carriage able to work with the axletree broken across? It broke about a mile and a half from Cheltenham, and it came back all the way to Gloucester, notwithstanding the axletree being broken: one of the engines was able to work during that time, and, of course, having only one engine, when it came to a hill, the men were obliged to assist it over the centre, as there was no momentum. Can you state, accurately, the weight of the carriage? I cannot. As far as you have observed, is the injury done to the roads by the pass¬ ing of the carriage, greater or less than that by a carriage drawn by horses? I think, taking the horses into the account, the injury must be much less; the tire of the wheels three and a half inches wide, whereas many of the stage coaches are as heavy as the steam carriage, and with narrower wheels: and I think it is only fair to take the weight of the horses into the account, which I have found to be from eight to ten hundred weight each horse; con¬ sequently, four horses would weigh from a ton and a half to two tons. You are answering now from theory—you were directed to answer from observation? From observation,I do not think that the steam carriages in¬ jure the road so much from the wheels being wider. How frequently do you clean the tubes of the boiler? It would be neces¬ sary to clean them once a month; I should recommend that, but if they were actually cleaned once in three months they would not give away: it depends upon the quality of the water made use of. Is there great facility in cleaning them? Very great; it is merely remov¬ ing oppsite the end of the orifice of the tube the screw-bolt; it is only to withdraw the screw-bolt and introduce the cleaning rod. We are in the habit of blowing out the tubes every two or three days to cleanse them. What is the greatest number of passengers you have taken on that car¬ riage? Thirty-six. Thirty-six passengers and their luggage? Yes, but being a short stage, there is never much luggage. * What do you suppose is the greatest weight you could draw by that car¬ riage, at the rate of ten miles an hour? From forty to fifty hundred weight; it is found to be drawn much easier by dividing the weight into two carri¬ ages than taking it in one only. Do you work, on an average, at half your utmost power of working with safety to the engine? I should think we did. Full half? Yes. Do you think more than that? It depends so much upon the slate of the fire. 1 The questionfwas, do you Äork, on an average, at half your full power? Yes, I should think we did. The greatest weight we ever drew on the common road, at a rate of from five to six miles an hour, was eleven tons. Is that merely by guess, or did you actually weigh? By weight; we made the experiment on the Bristol road. What should you suppose to be the weight of the drawing carriage? The weight of that was upwards of two tons. Th„n it drew five times its own weight? Yes, it did; the eleven tons I [ Doc. No. 101. 3 109 have stated, included the weight of the drawing carriage; and I did no consider that the maximum power, at all. Did you ever try it at a less velocity? No, because, in applying the greatest power, we confine both the wheels to the engine. Did you draw the nine tons with only the power of one wheel? Yes. Are you able, from the two circumstances you have mentioned, to say, • that, at three miles an hour,you could draw consideràbly more weight? Yes, I have no doubt of it whatever. On what breadth of tire was that weight drawn? I think the tire was five inches of the propelling carriage. For what distance did you continue to draw that nine tons? A mile and a quarter. Did the road vary in its inclination? Yes, a little; the greatest elevation could not be more than one in twenty-five. Did you ascend an inclination of one in twenty-five with that weight? Yes, we did. For what distance? From twenty to thirty yards. And, on the average of the mile and a half, and it an ascending or a des¬ cending road? It was both; there were little undulations in the road. Can you measure accurately the power you are employing at any particu¬ lar time—have you any gauge? No, we have never applied one; I have conceived one, and am going to apply it. The barometer tube? Yes, that is the one. I think it right to state, that the wheels were taken off that measured five feet diameter, and others were substituted, measuring only three feet diameter. Do you wish to have it inferred from that, that you employed, in both cases, the same amount of power? There must have been a little more power with wheels of three feet diameter. Do you think you exerted your utmost power when you were drawing nine tons? No, and for the reasons stated, that there was only one wheel affixed to the engine. May you not exert your utmost power upon one wheel, taking into con¬ sideration that the strain is greater? No, the wheel would slip round. Was the surface of the road on which you tried that heavy weight broken up, or in any way rough, to give a greater amount of friction? No, it was a good hard road. What proportionate charge do you make for conveying passengers be¬ tween Cheltenham and Gloucester? One shilling. What do the coaches charge? Haif a crown the four-horse coaches, and two horse coaches 2s. Travelling at the same speed, do you think you could charge in the same proportion? Yes. There would be a saving to the public of more than one-half? Yes. Have you taken many passengers? Yes, a great number; from February to June, between three and four thousand passengers.. I have a book con¬ taining an account of the number of minutes that each journey took. The committee have received a letter from the surveyor of the Glouces¬ ter and Cheltenham road, stating that there is a very great noise proceeding from this carriage? I have not heard that observation generally; there is a little noise, but not much. With red hot burning coals falling on the road continually, or whenever the fire was moved? That has taken place when the ash pit has been burnt 110 [ Doc. No. 101. J I f out, but that is not necessary. The carrriage I have recently fitted up will not he subject to that. You are of course aware that the letting coals drop is desirable to be ob¬ viated? Yes, and that I have guarded against. ' He also states few animals will pass it without being frightened; and of¬ ten the traveller was obliged to take his horses into the fields adjoining the road; and very many who did not use that precaution had been placed in the most perilous situations; and that a gentleman's carriage in the neigh¬ borhood, was overturned from the horses taking fright at it? Yes, I have understood that; but that carriage has been overturned once or twice owing to the carelessness of the driver. I have seen the gentleman, and he did not think any thing of the accident, the coach turned round, and the coach¬ man jumped off, but I never saw any thing bordering upon an accident dur¬ ing the time I was with it. He states that persons have completely deserted that road? I have never known but one individual that has been against it at Gloucester; but I have seen horses take fright at a stage coach and not at our carriage. In one in¬ stance, going out of Gloucester, we were just behind the stage coach, and a horse in a chaise coming past took fright at the stage coach, and when he came up to us he took no notice of us, and therefore, I am fully persuaded, that horses do not take more fright at us than at a loaded stage coach, from the observations I have made upon a number of experiments. Were there 14 inches of stone laifl on the road at the time the accident happened of the breaking the axletree? Yes, it was; when the stones were levelled, they measured seven inches, but, at that time, they were merely laid across the road, so that the carriage could not pass them without go¬ ing through them. Do you know that the passengers on the common stagecoach got out and helped the coach along? No, 1 do not know it: I only heard it, I do not know it. Mr. James M'rfdam, called in, and examined. Are you surveyor of the Holyhead line of road? As far as St. Alban's. Have you the superintendence of any other portion of it? Of no other portion of it. Have you had considerable experience in road-making, and superintend¬ ing roads? Yes, for the last fourteen years. Have you made any experiments, or are you able to give any information to the committee, as to the comparative wear of;roads, or injury to roads by carriages and horses passing? I have generally found that horses' feet do very great injury to the surface of a well-made road; and I am of opinion that a carriage, with properly constructed wheels, does less injury to a road than the horses drawing. Would you explain what the operation of the injury done to the road is by travelling on it; is it the wear of the road, or the displacement of the materials? Both take place; the wheels, to a certain degree, wear out the material, but, upon a road properly constructed, and that has become con¬ solidated, and the surface smooth, that wear is very small and gradual; the injury to the road from the horses' feet, more especially upon gravel and flint roads, arises, particularly in dry weather, from the knocking up and dis¬ placing the materials upon the surface, and each succeeding journey adds to the evil, and were it not for the effect of the wheels following the horses [ Doc. No. 101. ] 111 in mitigation of that evil, we should have the flint and gravel roads all loose throughout the whole summer. But the wheels of the carriage do not actually follow in the track of the horses? But in roads of much thoroughfare, especially near the Metropolis, other carriages do. On the Metropolis roads, have you made any new regulations as to the mode of charging tolls by weight or otherwise? In the last act passed for the Metropolis roads, the toll was put upon the horse drawing, and a regu¬ lation as to the formation and breadth of the wheels expressly enacted, by which all wheels were required to be not convex, but a perfectly flat sur¬ face, with no projecting nails; but, by the powers granted to the commis¬ sioners in that act, that perfectly flat surface was mitigated to a surface not exceeding a quarter of an inch from the flat surface; to meet the practical ef¬ fect arising from the wear of the wheels upon the road ; and to prevent litiga¬ tion at the several gates, by applying a guage, a toll of 3d. per horse for each seven miles is psyable upon a six-inch wheel so constructed; a quarter more upon a wheel so constructed of four inches and a half in breadth, and a half more upon a wheel less than four inches and a half. Those additions do not apply to stage coaches or carriages with springs. The toll upon all horses drawing carriages and coaches with springs is 3d. a horse for seven miles, whatever may be the breadth of the tire. You have had no reference to the weight of the carriage drawn in your rate of the tolls? There is no reference to the weight drawn in any wagon or such like carriage, provided the wheel is of the construction required by the act, and the result of some years' experience proves that no injury what¬ ever is sustained upon a well-made road, from any weight practically car¬ ried in wagons, or such like carriages, with wheels as described. You do not mean that the committee should infer weight is of no conse¬ quence, but that the power of the horse will be your guard against an over¬ weight being drawn? Yes; the toll being laid per horse, I consider that the penally in the shape of toll per horse, more than compensates for the injury done by the weight. Before those regulations took place, the roads in truth sustained an equal pressure, from the well known fact that the weighing engines were universally compounded for by all the carriers, and that the roads, after these regulations, had no greater but even less weights to sustain than before that took place, and it was observing that fact, which induced the commissioners of the Metropolis roads to do away with all the weighing engines. Do you know whether the Holyhead road commissioners are trying to do away with the necessity of weighing engines? Upon the trusts, on that line of which I am surveyor, the trustees have done away with all the weighing engines, and the happy result of compelling the wagons to set out and arrive upon the Metropolis roads with properly constructed wheels, has had the effect of enabling the trustees upon all the roads within a circle of fifty to eighty miles, to dispense with the weighing engines; also, because if the wagons set out and arrive in the Metropolis district with a properly constructed wheel; it was not worth their while to alter it, but to travel throughout to Cambridge, Newmarket, &c. with the same wheel; and the benefit of the metropolis wheel has extended itself in consequence. Then supposing a broad wheel wagon with dished wheels was to pass through your turnpike, what rate would be charged? It would be charged the highest rate of a narrow wheeled wagon. 112 £ Doc. No. 101. ]] Have you heard any complaints from the wagon masters of the regulation of the form of the wheel? On the contrary, a few days since, we had a peti¬ tion most numerously signed by the wagon masters from Norwich, Cam¬ bridge, Newmarket, &c., requesting the trustees of the Wadesmill road to dispense with use of their weighing engine, they having found by experi¬ ence that the wheels required by the Metropolis commissioners, were not only best for the road, but the most advantageous for themselves to use, and inconsequence of that application, on Friday last, the only remaining en¬ gine On the roads of which I am surveyor, was ordered to be abandoned. . Can you state the weights of a loaded stage coach, and a loaded wagon, and a loaded van, on the average? I should state a stage coach loaded, at from two and a half to three tons; a wagon from five tons to seven and a half. Does that include the weight of the wagon? Eight tons would; I should think the weight of the vans about four or five tons. Have you observed the operation of wheels when they are dragged? Yes; they are injurious upon roads newly coated certainly, but upon an old road, I mean a road that has become consolidated upon the surface, the in¬ jury, with proper skid pans is but small, and confined of course to one side of the surface of the hill. 1 Do you think the efficacy of your toll in protecting the road is equally ap¬ plicable to a heavy van as a loaded coach? I think that the toll per horse will always be a sufficient guard for the weights drawn, the van being on springs does infinitely less injury in proportion than such a weight without them. But if the injury to the road proceeds from the weight the horses have to draw, the same rate of toll would not be applicable to a carriage of two tijns and one of six tons, both being drawn by four horses? Certainly not; but that is a supposition hardly fair to be taken, because we conclude that the additional weight requires additional horses. But in practice the vans pass all through the country with only four horses, and the coaches equally with four horses? That is true; the coaches go at a much more rapid pace. Do you think that the velocity with which a coach goes, has any thing to do with the wear of the road, or is it -not actually less injurious in propor¬ tion to its velocity? In some instances, where any blow takes place, the speed does more injury to the road by crushing the materials. You did not contemplate the general use of vans when that act was drawn- up? No; not that they would come into such general use. What proportion of the injury to the road do you think takes place from the changes of the atmosphere; frost and wet, has it any material effect? Yes, decidedly, in chalk soils in particular; at Royston, and through that country, a great and serious injury takes place upon the breaking up of all frosts, nor can we, by any care or attention or strength of surface of the road, prevent that taking place; it comes in a very eccentric manner, and breaks up one year at one part of the road, and another at another, occasioned in a great measure by the standing of the water in the sub'soil; and I suppose also, by the way in which the wind is at the time it freezes. It is the modern practice of road making to abstain from all general repair of^the roads from the middle of April until the middle of October; during that period, the only repairs that ought to take place are partial coatings, neces¬ sary from accidental circumstances. As soon after the middle of October [ Doc. No. 101. ] 113 as possible the general coating takes place in pieces of the road at a time so as to interefere and interrupt as little as possible with general travelling, and we endeavor, by the month of February, to have the whole of the coatings put on; in no instance above a sixth part at a time. On your line, the committee find that the course of horizontal traction varies from 42 to 140; with these remarks, in the case of 42 " granite sur¬ face of many years standing," and the 140 "smooth surface road made of broken granite;" can you explain why such a difference should take place, both being smooth surfaces? I am quite unable to account for it; no coat¬ ings of dirt upon a granite road ought to have produced so great a difference. Have you witnessed the operation of a carriage propelled by steam on the public roads? 1 have observed it; but in a small degree. Who was the proprietor of the carriage you noticed? I think it was Mr. Gurney's; I accidentally saw it. Then you only saw it once? Only once. What was the state of the roads when you saw it? Tolerably good at the time; I saw it in the Regent's park. Were they in such a state you could make any observation upon the greater or less injury produced by it than by a common carriage? I cannot say that my attention was directed at that time to that fact; I have not had an opportunity practically of seeing the effect of steam carriages upon roads; there have been none used near us except passing down to Virginia water, &c. ; but not being brought into general use, I have not seen sufficiently the effect of their wheels upon roads. From the experiments you have before stated, what should you recom¬ mend should be the breadth of the tire of the wheel of a carriage with four wheels weighing four tons? I consider that a carriage of anv^e^criptiofi required to carry a great weight, five or eight tons, ought to ¿aveht wheel of four inches and a half in breadth, constructed agreeably t the clause in the Metropolis act; and I consider that a carriage with such ; -vheel, though carrying an excessive weight, would do very little injury to uie road. It has been stated by a previous witness, that a carriage of the weight of two tons propelled by steam, drew after it another carriage weighing nine tons; what should, from your experience, be the breadth of the tire of the wheel of the propelling carriage and the carriage drawn? Looking solely to the welfare of the load, I should prefer a wheel of four inches and a half, flat on the tire, to any other class of wheel that can be made, being of opinion that a greater breadth of wheel cannot at one time touch the surface of a well-formed turnpike road. Then you would prescribe that breadth as the minimum breadth of wheel for any weight? Yes; I do not think any increase of breadth would be of any service. Supposing two carriages, one drawn by horses, and the other propelled by steam, the weight of the steam carriage being four tons, and the weight of the carriage drawn by horses being two tons, which would do most in¬ jury to the road, provided the breadth of the wheels were the same in both cases? I should prefer, with a proper wheel in both cases, the steam carri¬ age without the horses, because that question can only be answered with reference to the wheel. Then,"in the case given, if the wheels of the steam carriages were four inches and a half, and the wheels of the coach two and a half, which would do the greatest injury? The coach, decidedly, drawn by horses, though only 15 114 [ Doc. No. 101. 2 two tons and a half, infinitely more; because I consider, that of all classes of thoroughfare at present, the stage coach, as usually laden, does us the great¬ est injury. Can you suggest any mode by which tolls could be fairly charged on steam carriages in relation to the tolls charged on coaches? The mode adopted in coaches, of taking toll per horse as well as wagons, has been found to answer every purpose, it being, in truth, a penalty upon weight If greater weight is put upon a wagon, a greater number of horses are ne¬ cessary to move it, and the parties bring the penalty in the shape of toll in their hands. This cannot be applied to steam carriages, and I am at a loss to recommend to the committee any general mode, unless the diameter of the cylinder or poWer of the engine could be taken. In the Metropolis act of 1829, there is a toll laid upon steam carriages; any carriage that shall be in any manner drawn by steam or gas, shall pay the toll that would be paid by any carriage drawn by four horses. If the power of the engine is equal to any number of horses, you only ehargethe same toll? The same toll. Then if a steam carriage drew another carriage after it, or two carriages after it, would it be two or three tolls, or one only? Two or three tolls; where a steam carriage conveys passengers by drawing another coach, they would each pay the toll of four horses: this is a matter si ill in its infancy; in many acts, such as the Lemsford mills act, a toll of half-a-crown was in¬ troduced for any carriage drawn or propelled by steam. Would not this inconvenience arise from the clause you have read in the Metropolis tolls act; it would be a premiumgiven in favor of one description of steam carriage over another, though the injury done to the road might be in favor of the one less taxed, as in the case of a steam carriage carrying 20 passengers, and another steam carriage drawing a carriage containing the same 20 passengers? In that case the toll would certainly be an unjust one, and require revision; it was a point not settled, and it was put in merely to commence the toll, and call the public attention to it. I beg leave to observe, that if these carriages come into general use, they would necessari¬ ly require a still greater perfection in the surface of our roads, and also in the levelling pf the remaining hills; as good surface and little inclination is to them of the greatest importance. If that is the case, would it not be necessary to lay considerable rate of toll upon those carriages, for the purpose of affording the means of execu¬ ting those improvements? It is found, that lowering the hills, and improv¬ ing the surface of all the roads, is productive invariably of a great increase of thoroughfare; and although lowering the hills might be attended with the first expense, any excitement that would induce the trustees of the roads to keep them in good order, would be at the same time productive of economy, a good road being always the cheapest. Do you not suppose, if those carriages were in general use, the very ac¬ tion of the wheels upon the roads would prevent the necessity of such fre¬ quent repairs as are required at present? I should think that the absence of the horses' feet in a great degree upon the roads, would be a very conside¬ rable saving; and I have already stated, that these carriages, with properly constructed wheels, would be the class of carriages that would do the least injury to the roads. What is the greatest speed you have known a carriage drawn by horses to execute a given number of miles on your trust? I once, by mere acci- [ Doc. No. 101. J 115 dent, came in the Leeds Union coach from Grantham, which is 110'miles from London; I got into the coach at three o'clock, and I was in London at half after one the same morning; that was at the time the Leeds Union and the Rockingham were racing the whole way up. Are you aware that Mr. Telford states in his report on the state of the Holyhead roads, that three of the Birmingham coaches perform the journey of 110 miles in less than eight hours, without any accident, at the rate of thirteen miles and six furlongs an hour? I have frequently heard it stated upon the road, though I do not know it of my own personal knowledge. Have you any other observations you would wish to make to the com¬ mittee? I am not aware of any point. You do not think it will be necessary to limit steam carriages to any par¬ ticular number of passengers, provided the wheels were of the dimensions stated? If the wheels were of the dimensions and the description stated, I should, in reason, be regardless of weight, experience having completely proved, with properly constructed wheels, we sustain little or no injury from weight. What is the maximum weight a road would bear upon each wheel? The injury done by weight upon a road in a carriage with proper wheels is principally, I might almost venture to say exclusively, to the new coatings; if the weight in such carriage isa crushing weight, as applied to the mate¬ rials with twhich the road is made, it does a very considerable injury, and therefore were steam carriages to become in general use, it would be a mat¬ ter of great importance, that harder material should be introduced, that flint should take the place of gravel, and that granite or whinstone take the place of flint, which is the principle acted upon by the commissioners of the Metropolis roads; but, upon a hard and well consolidated road, a very great weight may be sustained without doing comparatively any injury. When you state that if steam carriages come into general use harder ma¬ terials ought to be used, you suppose that these steam carriages will be much heavier than the carriages used at present? Yes; I contemplate that they will carry much greater weights. Your answer does not apply to carriages that are of the same weight as those now used? No; but to carriages of the weight of eight or ten tons; when I spoke of the weight of from eight to twelve tons, I supposed a car¬ riage with four wheels. Upon the present well constructed roads, what weight do you think could be put upon them without crushing them? I should not apprehend any in¬ jurious result from the general use of steam carriages with properly made wheels, carrying upon an average from eight to ten tons. Your answer refers to roads that are so well made that the whole pressure shall be as that of an arch, but on the average of roads, such as shall he found in the country, would you give the same answer? No, certainly not. Taking the average of any line of road fora great number of miles, where materials less capable of bearing weight must necessarily be used for a con¬ siderable proportion of that road, Iwhat should you say is the maximum . weight that should be allowed with reference to the preservation of that road on any one wheel of four inches and a half? Two tons. Have you ascertained that by experiment? I have not had an opportuni¬ ty of judging of it, except in all the wagons that depart from the Metropolis that are required to have the wheels constructed in the way I have describ¬ ed, some of which carry considerable weights. 116 [ Doc. No. 101. ] « Martis, 6° die Septembris, 1831. ' Mr. John Macneil, civil engineer, Daventry; called in, and examined. State your profession? A civil engineer; I am at present the resident and assistant engineer, under Mr. Telford, to the Parliamentary commissioners on the Holyhead road between London and Shrewsbury, and London and Liverpool. What is the weight, of a coach, a van and a wagon, each carrying what would be considered an average load; state also the breadth of the tires of their wheels? The weight of four horse stage coaches vary from fifteen cwt. and three quarters to eighteen cwLjmost of the Birmingham day and night coaches weigh about sixteen cwt., and frequently carry, the night coaches in particular, upwards of two tons of goods and passengers, exclusive of the coach; yet, taking into consideration the number of times they travel with very light loads, I should say that from two tons five cwt. to two tons ten cwt., including the carriage, would be a fair average weight during the year. The tires of the wheels are mostly two inches, but some of them are less; those constructed by Mr.jBrown, and used on his patent coaches, have the edges chamfered off, so as to give a flat bearing of one inch and a half, but from the peculiar manner in which those coaches are mounted with springs, I am inclined to think the injury done to the roads by these wheels is not so great as it otherwise would be. Some coach wheels tljat I have seen are rounded off, so as to form in the cross section a segment of about one inch and three quarters in diameter. The bearing in this case on the road, where the surface is hard and smooth, is reduced almost to a point, and flaust be extremely injurous. The coachmen remark that carriages with such wheels run wild in descending hills in summer, but heavy in winter, and when the roads are soft and muddy. The mail coaches weigh very nearly twenty cwt. Some of them, the Holyhead coach for instance, fre¬ quently carries upwards of a ton of letters and parcels, independent of pas¬ sengers and their luggage. The average weight of the whole may probably betaken at two tons. Some others, the Liverpool day mail for instance, travel very light, and probably will not average one ton and a half. The breadth of tire of mail coaches is two inches anda quarter; the four horse vans, which travel about six miles an hour, weigh on an average four tons and a quarter, including the carriage; the breadth of tire of one which 1 mea¬ sured was two inches and a half, but I am not prepared to say that this is the general size of such wheels; the horses used in these carriages are of the very best and largest description, which, added to so great a weight on nar¬ row wheels, probably renders this carriage more injurious to the ' public roads than any other description of vehicle at present employed. There are four descriptions of wagons in general use, the eight horse wagon, the six horse wagon, the four horse wagon, and the farm wagon, which is drawn sometimes by two, three or four horses, according to the load. The eight horse wagons, though frequently weighing, with the load, seven tons, may probably be averaged at not more than six tons the year round; the wheel is nine inches in the tire, but, from a very improper plan followed in its construction, the bearing on a hard solid road is only three inches, for these wheels are generally shod with three hoops of three inch iron, the centre one of which is of a greater diameter than the others, and projects full half an inch beyond them, which, on weak roads, such as in the neighborhood of London, must be most injurious. I have measured one since I came to [ Doc. No. 101. 3 117 London, which travels on the Bath and Bristol road, the outer rim is coni¬ cal; and can certainly never come in contact with the road surface, unless it be one on which the wheel would sink two or three inches. The section of the wheel is represented in the following sketch: the six horse wagons, with their load, generally weigh four tons and a half; their wheels are six inches wide, and of a better description than the former, though sometimes one of their hoops projects beyond the other, as in the case of the nine inch wheel; the four horse wagons, with their load, commonly weigh three tons and a half, their wheels are four inches wide, and are more upright than the others, and have a more level bearing on the road; the farm wagons, used in Northamptonshire, weighs, on an average, one ton one cwt., the breadth of a wheel is three inches, and it carries from one ton to three tons,,(-accord¬ ing to circumstances, and lasts nearly twenty years. On an average line of road of not less than 100 miles, on which, in many places, materialsof very inferior description must have been used, both in its formation and subsequent repair, what is the maximum weight per wheel (say if not less than four inches width of tire,) which should be carried on any kind of carriage (carriage weight included,) without risk of injury to the road? On a road, such as here described, the injury will be considerable by any wheel passing over it; but without a more defined statement of the quantity and quality of the materials used, I do not think this question can be answered with any degree of certainty. On all gravel roads, however, made, without a foundation or bottoming, I should say the weight, on a four inch wheel, should not exceed fifteen cwt., and on a wheel less than that ten cwt. on the generality of roads, throughout the country, I do not think it would be safe to run a carriage with almost any width of wheel if the load much exceeded ten tons; in fact there are some bridges even between London and Birmingham, that it would be running a risk to pass over with a car¬ riage weighing ten tons. Can you, from observation, say what proportion the breadth of the tire of wheels should be to the weight? The breadth of tire in proportion to the weight, will depend entirely upon the description of road over which the carriage passes; on such a road as that lately constructed by the parliamenta¬ ry commissioners of the Holyhead and Liverpool roads, at the Highgate Archway, I have frequently observed wagons, carrying upwards of six tons pass over it; the weight of each wheel on the road was then about thirty cwt. ; and though the bearing of the wheels, from the cause I have before staled, was not more than three inches, the effect produced was impercepti¬ ble. The pressure, in this case, was ten cwt. on pvery inch, which is unques¬ tionably too much for the generality of roads; but if we take the road from London to Shrewsbury, as a criterion to judge by, I should say that a wheel ought to be an inch in width for every ton that a carriage and its load would weigh; i and that if every carriage that now travels that road, was limited not to exceed that proportion, the roads would be better, and maintained at a cheaper rate than at present. According to the average weight of coaches and wagons, as hefore stated, I have calculated the following table, show¬ ing the weight at present carried on each inch of bearing, and what I con¬ ceive might be the breadth of the different wheels if they were made cylindrical with an even bearing, and in the proportion of one inch of width for every ton including the carriage. 118 £ Doc. No. 101. 3 i Description of carriage. Velocity in miles per hour. Weight, on an average, in tons. Breadth of the wheels, in inches. Pressure of each wheel, in cwts. Pressure on each inch, in cwts. Breadth of wheel, calculat¬ ed in the propor¬ tion of 5 cwt. to the inch. Mail coach 9 to 11 2 24 10.0 4.40 2 Stage coach 8 to 11 24 2 12.5 6.25 24 "Van 6 to 7 44 24 21.25 8.29 44 Wagon 24 to 3 6 9 25.0 2.77 6 Ditto 21 to 3 41 C 23.5 3.75 - 44 Ditto 2à to 3 34 4 17.5 4.37 34 1 State your opinion as to the relative wear of a road by two carriages,1 both drawn by four horses, one carriage of two tons weight, with two inch tires, the other four tons, with four inch tires? My opinion is, that the wear of the roads would in each case be the same, as far as it was affected * by the wheels of the carriages, probably rather less, by the carriage carry¬ ing four tons, on four inch wheels, than by the carriage carrying two tons, with two inch wheels; but it must be recollected that both the carriages are supposed to be drawn by the same number of horses, and as the horses drawing the carriage of four tons, must use greater exertions than those drawing the carriage of two tons, lam of opinion that the aggregate wear of the road would be more by the transit of the four ton carriage, than by that of the carriage weighing two tons. How would the foregoing answer be affected by an increase or decrease of velocity in either carriage? If the road over which the carriages are drawn be hard, solid and smooth, I think there would be very little increase of wear from the effect of the carriage wheels by an increase of velocity; but if the road should be uneven or rough, there would be an increase of wear, in consequence of the impetus or blow with which the wheels would strike the road after passing over the inequalities in its susface, particular¬ ly if the carriages were made without springs; but whether the road be a good or a bad one, the wear occasioned by the feet of the horses will be greater when they travel with an increased velocity: for a coach-horse which travels at the rate of ten miles an hour, works on an average 270 miles in a month, and wears out in that time about four pounds'of iron in shoes; whereas a wagon-horse, which travels at the rate of three miles an hour, and works twenty-six miles a day, for four days in the week, goes, on an average, 416 miles in the same period of time, and wears out 4.8 pounds of iron. If the coach-horse travels the same distance, the wear would be six-sixteenths, which exceeds the wear of the wagon-horse one- thirty-sixth. In the same way might the relative injury caused by the wheels of the wagon and the coach be ascertained. What is the operation of the atmosphere on roads? Well made roads, formed of clean hard broken stone, placed on a solid foundation, are very little affected by changes of atmosphere; weak roads, or those that are im¬ perfectly formed with gravel, flint, or round pebbles, without a bottoming or foundation of stone pavement or concrete, are, on the contrary, much af- [ Doc. No. 101. ] 119 fected by changes of the weather. In the formation of such roads, and before they become bound or firm, a considerable portion of the sub soil mixes with the stone or gravel in consequence of the necessity of putting the gravel on in thin layers. This mixture of earth or clay, in dry warm seasons, expands by the heat, and makes the road loose and open: the con¬ sequence is, that the stones are thrown out, and many of them are crushed and ground into dust, producing considerable wear and diminution of the materials; in wet weather also, the clay or earth, mixed with the stones, absorbs moisture, becomes soft, and allows the stones to move and rub against each other when acted upon by the feet of horses or wheels of car¬ riages. This attrition of the stones against each other, wears them out sur¬ prisingly fast, and produces large quantities of mud, which tend to keep the road damp, and, by that means, increases the injury. Supposing the actual wear or deterioration of a road to be represented by 100, and that only coaches, vans and wagons have passed over it during any given period, in what proportion would" you estimate the effects; first, of atmosphere; secondly, of the carriage; thirdly, of the horses? This ques¬ tion can only be answered in a general way; no two lines of road would probably give results at all similar; much will depend on the manner in which the road is constructed, the materials of which it is composed, the care bestowed on its drainage, and whether it be in an open situation or shaded by trees. If the road be properly made, and in an open situation, the injury arising from the atmosphere will be little, compared with the actual wear caused by the wheels of carriages and the feet of horses, probably not ten per cent, during the year; whereas, on weak roads in clay countries, every shower loosens the materials of which the road is composed, and causes considerable wear, perhaps thirty per cent, or dVen more in some situations, where the road is shaded by trees; to get at something like an average proportion between the wear occasioned by horses' feet and the wheels of carriages, I have procured the following facts: the coaches which run between London and Birmingham, require an hundred horses on an average, to work the up and down coach; the horses are generally shod by contract, at about 2s. 6d. per horse per month; those near London are much larger and heavier, and therefore require heavier shoes than those twenty miles out of London, and from thence to Birmingham; near London, in the tlint districts, the wear of horses' shoes is much more than it is in the quartz and limestone countries. At Stony Stratford, the weight of the four shoes of a mail and stage coach-horse averages five pounds, and when taken off at the end of about twenty-eight days, they weigh very nearly two pounds: in this period, the horses run 252 miles. At Towcester, Weedon and Da- ventry, the weight of the new shoes is one pound and a half each, and, when taken off, weigh nearly three-fourths of a pound; the length of time which they remain on is about thirty days; this would give a wear of three pounds per horse per month, but if the greater wear near London be con¬ sidered, I think it would not be too much to allow the wear equal to four pounds per horse per month, which, for 100 horses for ten weeks, would give a wear of 1,000 lbs. of iron. The bind wheels of the coaches are mostly four feet eight inches in diameter, and the front wheel three feet. The width of tire, I before stated is about two inches, and when new, the thickness of the iron is three-quarters of an inch. These wheels are found to last from ' two to three months, according to the state of the weather, the workman¬ ship and quality of iron, (about twenty years ago they did not last seven r. 120 [ Doc. No. 101. J ✓ days on an average;) suppose they now last ten weeks, in that time the tire is worn down to one-sixth of its original thickness. This would be equal to 163.4 lbs. or 326.8 for both coaches; this would be to the wear of the hor¬ ses' shoes as 326.8 to 1,000, or as 1 to 3-14ths nearly; now if the injury done to the road by the horses' feet and the wheels of carriages be esti¬ mated in the same proportion, I think it would probably be near the actual effect produced; that is to say, the injury done by the wheels of'fast coach¬ es is to the injury done by the horses which draw them as one to three in round numbers. The effect produced by slow carriages and horses is differ¬ ent: a wagon drawn by four horses, which travels regularly from London to Daventry at the rate of three miles an hour, is worked by fifteen horses; the wagon weighs twenty five cwt. and carries, on an average, sixty-seven cwt. ; the hind wheel^ are four feet eight inches in diameter, and the front ones four feet; the breadth of the wheels is six inches; they are nearly up¬ right but not cylindrical. The iron tire, when put on, weighs on the fore wheel, 285 lbs., on the hind ditto,-396 lbs., making 621 lbs. When re¬ moved, the weight is on the fore wheels, 144 lbs., on the hind ditto, 168 lbs., making 312 lbs.; wear in five months, 309 lbs. The number of miles travelled in this time is 6,048; the shoes that are put on the horses employ¬ ed to draw this wagon, weigh, when new, from two pounds and a half to three pounds each; the average of a great many gave two pounds and three quarters, and when removed one pound and a quarter. They last from four to six weeks, according to the weather and state of the road; but we may as¬ sume five weeks as an average, and the wear in that time for each horse six pounds, and for fifteen horses for five months, it would be 360 lbs. The proportion in this case would be as 309 to 360, or as one to 1.16, or nearly one to 1 i on the generality of roads: therefore, I would say the proportion of iujury would be nearly as follows, when travelled by fast coaches: Atmospheric changes 20 Coach wheels 20 Horses' feet that draw them 60 100 and when travelled by wagons : Atmospheric changes - . 20 Wagon wheels - - - 35-5 Horses'feet that draw them - - 44.5 100 What is the effect ol travelling by coaches and horses; whence, and in what proportion, does the injury or deterioration arise; the crushing of ma¬ terials; their actual wear; their displacement? If the wheels of carriages be properly constructed, and cylindrical, the friction, and consequently the wear on the surface of a well made road, will be very little, and there will be no injury from displacement of materials, except what may arise from the few surface stones that will sometimes be started out by the feet of horses on steep hills, when they are obliged to exert a great force to draw up a heavy load. When stones are thus thrown out on a hard and solid surface, the wheels of heavy carriages will crush them, and cause an injury which yvould be much more than that caused by the actual wear of the wheels pas- [ Doc. No. 101. ] 121 sing over the surface. If the roads be weak or elastic, and bend or yield under the pressure of the wheels, the particles of which it is composed will move and rub against each other, or perhaps break by the action of heavy wheels over them. On such roads, I conceive the injury caused by steam carriages will be much greater in proportion to the injury caused by light carriages drawn by horses, than it will be on solid firm roads. In one instance, where an accurate experiment was made, the wear was found to be four inches of hard stone, when it was placed on a wet clay bottom, while it was not more than half an inch, on a solid dry foundation, (form¬ ed as described in the report of the select committee on the Holyhead road, on the 30th May, 1 SßO,) or with a pavement bottom, on a part of the same road, when it was subject to the same traffic. On the Highgate archway road before mentioned, the annual wear does not appear to be more than half an inch in depth. Now, as this road is very little affected by wet, in consequence of its peuliar construction, and the care bestowed on its drain¬ age, I attribute almost the whole of the* diminution of materials to actual wear. On many roads, where the sides are weak, great injury arises from the crushing of materials, particularly by the action of wagon-wheels. In frosty weather, weak roads very frequently suffer more in one month than all the rest of the year. In such cases, the injury is caused by the wheels of carriages, and not by the horses' feet. If 30 lbs. be sufficient to move a carriage of 21 cwt. 8 lbs. on a level plat¬ form, little affected by friction, and 266 lbs. be required to move the same carriage up an inclination of 1 in 10, the pressure in the one case being exactly the weight of the carriage, 21 cwt. 8 lbs., what would be the pres¬ sure on the road, or platform, on the inclination?—As the pressure on the horizontal is to the pressure on the inclined plane, as the length of the plane w b is to its base, we have this proportion, \/b2-\-p2 :b:\W: — = the (o2+/>3)è pressure on the plane. In this example, w=2360. ô=10._p=l, which w b ®'VeS (/,»+jn»)t'==2360^-=2349.5 lbs. or lO^lbs. less than the pressure v/100+1 on the horizontal. Taking twenty miles near London, 150 lbs. appears to be the average force actually engaged in drawing the carriage of 21 cwt 8 lbs. including hills, would the force required to draw a carriage of 42 cwt. 16 lbs. be on an average 300 lbs. and so on in proportion?—the extreme traction of the carriage being 343 lbs. what, on this road, would have been the maximum force required to draw a carriage of four tons weight? It does not follow that because a carriage is twice as heavy as another, that its draught would be twice as much. The resistance arising from gravity on the inclined planes would, abstractly considered, be double, but that part of the resistance aris¬ ing from the friction and penetration of the wheels into the surface materi¬ als, would much depend on the construction of the carriage, and its wheels, and the different sorts of roads over which it was drawn. In order to as¬ certain the average draught of a carriage of 42 cwt. 16 lbs. over the above road, I conceive that the friction of the surface or resistance opposed to the motion of such a carriage, should be ascertained on each description of road within the above limits, and then by knowing the rates of acslivity, or the amount of gravity acting on each, the average draughts might be ascer¬ tained, if the same carriage and wheels were used, but loaded so as to make 16 122 [ Doc. No. 101. ] up 42 cwt. 16 lbs. the average draught. It might probably be calculated pretty nearly from the following table of experiments, which, as it may be of use in the present inquiry, I here beg leave to hand in; but it must be remembered that the proportions given in this table between the increase of weight and the increase of draught, will not be the same on every descrip¬ tion of road. To be enabled to answer the second part of the question, it will be necessary to know the rate of acclivity on which the draught of the carriage weighing 21 cwt. 16 lbs. was 343 lbs., and also to know the draught of the four ton carriage on the horizontal; but even then a difference might arise from the construction of the carriage, and the situation of its centre of gravity. TABl.E of Experiments made on the 28th January, 1829, immediately after a rapid thau>: the mud was full one and a half or two inches thick on the road at the time. Table I. No. of Planes. Wagon empty, weight 1 ton. Half a ton in the wagon. 1 to» 2 cwL in the wagon. Down. Up. Down. Up. Down. Up. 1 30 99 45 145 58 210 2 64 88 105 120 125 150 3 75 85 115 120 135 155 , 4 75 85 105 115 135 155 5 80 88 105 125 135 165 6 85 93 105 135 135 170 Neither the rates of acclivity, or the lengths of the planes, were taken at the time, but it might still be done, if thought necessary by the committee, as the points are well ascertained. Experiments made on a horizontal timber platform in January, 1829. Table II. Weight of the wagon and load. Powers required in lbs. to move iL Difference between empty wagon and load. 2,240 29 2,800 74 45 3,360 104 75» o 3,920 140 111*« If 266 lb3. be required to move a carriage of 21 cwt. 8lbs. upan inclined plane of one in ten, what amount of weight would be required to keep the {] Doc. No. 101. J 123 carriage stationary, or to allow it to descend with the slowest possible mo¬ tion on the same inclination?—this question has reference to the injury done to the roads by "dragging " the wheels, and subsequently to the slow motion of the propelling wheels of steam carriages in descending hills. If the base of the inclined plane be 10, and its height 1, the length will be ■v/lO*-f I2 = v/101 = 10.05 nearly, and we have the proportion 10-05- :1 : : 2360 : 234 -82 lbs. the weight which would be required to keep the carriage stationary if the surface of the plane was hard and smooth, and the mass collected in a point; but, as 266 is stated to be the moving power, the resistance arising from the friction of the surface, and the axle trees, would, in this case, be 31.18 lbs.; it may be well to observe here, that the experiments made on inclined planes, as detailed in the seventh report of Parliamentary commissioners of the Holyhead and Liverpool road, were not intended for any thing further than to get practical results, the descrip¬ tion of which could be easily understood by road surveyors and their assist-, ants, and even by men in the habit of driving coaches. It could not be ex¬ pected that experiments made with a large unwieldy wagon, mounted with common axle-trees besmeared with tar, could furnish results on which to found a refined mathematical calculation. I have, however, within these few days, commenced a series of experiments, with a small carriage con¬ structed on purpose, and furnished with a very delicate instrument for measuring the draught. From the little way I have as yet gone in these experiments, I cannotfurnish any details at present; but I think I am war¬ ranted in saying that a very great benefit would arise in the saving of road materials, by the adoption of a better method of hanging the coaches, in a manner, perhaps, something similar to gentlemen's carriages. Many of these weigh, when fully loaded, two tons, yet a pair of post horses draw them, with apparent ease, the rate of ten miles an hour; and, on some parts of the road between London and Birmingham, where the road is tolerably level, at a much greater speed; some of the Birmingham and London coach¬ es travel the same ground, at twelve miles, and sometimes fifteen miles an hour. This velocity, however, may, in a great measure, be attributed to the level and perfect state of that road. The details of various kinds of steam carriages have been given to the committee; all act without propellers; without projection on the wheels, with cylindrical wheels; some with greater or less breadth of tire, even six inches wide; the power Is applied either by crank or wheels to one or two propelling wheels, according as greater or less force may be required. Some of the experimental carriages had three, some six wheels; all will have four wheels. Some have the engines in a separate carriage, and draw the load; some carry the load and engines on one carriage. Taking the above cir¬ cumstances into consideration, which would be most injurious to a road—a stage coach, drawn by four horses, weight of coach three tons, horses two tons, breadth of tire two inches and a half; or steam coach, wheels four inches tire, weight four tons; in both cases veiucity ten miles per hour? Taking for granted that the injury which a road sustains by the wheels of carriages and the feet of horses is proportional to the wear of iron on the wheels and on the horses, and that the statement before given as to the actual wear on each be found correct, I would say the injury done to the road by lite steam carriage weighing four tons with four-inch wheels, would be less than that occasioned by the coach weighing three tons, drawn by four horses. 124 [ Doc. No. 101. ]J Would it be beneficial or otherwise to the roads, that steam carriages: i drawing heavyweights in carriages attached to them, should be substituted i for wagons drawn by horses, supposing that the weight of the drawing or propelling carriage should not in any case exceed the weight of the number of horses that would have been used to draw a corresponding weight, e g. Wagon 8 tons Eight horses, 15 cwt. each - 6 ditto 14 On steam carriage - - 4 Carriage drawn - - 10 14?— I am of opinion, that if the steam carriage and its accompanying carriage be constructed with wheels of a proper width, and of the same diameter as the wagon wheels, and travel with the same velocity, that the injury on well-made solid roads will not be more than that caused by the wagon and horses: in fact, if the proportion of injury before stated be correct, it will be less; but it must be recollected that weak roads suffer more than solid ones from the heavy pressure of wheels, and, in such cases, the steam car¬ riage and its tender would be more injurious. In descending hills, steam carriages can regulate their velocity by reducing the action or number of revolutions of the wheels; this acts as a drag, but with the advantage to a road that the wheel moves continually round; which would be most injurious to a road, the descent of a carriage dragged as usual (not omitting the operation of horses' feet,) or the steam carriage dragged or regulated in the mode described? Not having seen a steam carriage de¬ scending a hill in the manner described (that is, regulated by the action of the engine on the wheel,) I cannot give a satisfactory answer to this ques¬ tion; but, as far as opinion goes, I should say that the joint action of the horses and drag would be more injurious than the steam carriage, the motion of which was regulated in the above manner, provided the wheels were of the proper width, and the total weight not greater than that of the coach and horses. Various local acts have passed, placing excessive tolls on steam carriages— it may be requisite to introduce a general bill, which shall, on such roads, place steam carriages on a fair equality (so far as their relative injury or wear of road, to common coaches on each such road; the toll on a coach on such roads may vary fron one to two shillings, according to local circum¬ stances, on a wagon in the same proportion; what standard of charge would you suggest for steam carriages? It has been stated to us, that one steam carriage has drawn a carriage containing as many as thirty passengers at the rate of even ten miles per hour, and nine tons weight at the rate of five miles per hour, but with smaller wheels, what regulation would you sug¬ gest as to the breadth of tire, or should tolls be chargeable in inverse pro¬ portion to the breadth of tire? The toll which carriages propelled by steam, or by any other mechanical means, should be required to pay, ought, in my opinion, to be in proportion to the injury they would do to the roads com¬ pared with that done by the present description of carriages and the horses employed to draw them, without reference to the weight or quantity of £ Doc. No. 101. ] 125 goods carried; but, as I before stated, I do not believe an accurate estimate can be at present formed as to the injury that roads may sustain from steam carriages, compared with the injury done to them by coaches drawn by horses. It may, however, I think be safely assumed that the injury done to a road by a steam carriage would not be greater than that occasioned by a stage coach drawn by horses, the weight of the engine and its load being supposed not to weigh more than the stage coach, together with its load and horses. If this be granted, and an act passed limiting the width of wheel in a certain proportion to the weight carried, there would not be much difficul¬ ty in arranging a scale of tolls applicable to steam carriages, which would put them on an equitable footing with carriages drawn by horses. If, for in¬ stance, a proportion, such as I have already mentioned be adopted, viz. that a wheel should be an inch in width for every 5 cwt it has to support, and a toll charged for each inch equal to the amount charged for a horse drawing in a carriage which travels with the velocity of the engine, it would, in my opinion, be a fair and equitable toll, at least for some years, or until a cor¬ rect proportion of injury was ascertained by experience and observation, when it might be altered or amended according to circumstances. This mode of charging toll would be extremely simple, and not likely to be mis¬ understood by toll-collectors, or to occasion any disputes; but there should be a heavy penalty attached to the proprietors of steam carriages if they put a greater weight on the carriage than the wheels were intended to car¬ ry. If the engine, instead of carryingthe load, draws one or more carriages after it, the toll should be collected and charged on each carriage in a simi¬ lar manner as it is charged on the engine, that is, in proportion to its wheels. An example will illustrate my meaning more clearly: suppose an engine, together with its load, to weigh nine tons (which is about the average weight of two stage coaches, including the weight of the horses which draw them) to pass through a toll-gate where horses drawing coaches are charged 6d. each, the toll on the two coaches, would be 4i., and of the steam carriage 4a 6d. Suppose that thejengine, instead of carrying the load, draws a car¬ riage after it, and that the weight of the engine is five tons, with five-inch wheels, and of the accompanying carriage four tons, with four-inch wheels, the toll of the engine would be 2i. 6d., and of the tender 2s., making 4s. 6d. as before. The only objection I can see to this mode of charging toll on steam carriages travelling over the turnpike roads, would be, that, in the event of their being able to carry a greater number of passengers at a cheap¬ er rate than the present description of carriages drawn by horses, it would lessen the amount of toll collected as a fewer number of carriages would do the work, and many persons who drive their own horses would travel by them if found cheaper to do so; and this circumstance, although it would not affect the state of repairing in which the road was previously maintain¬ ed, it might lessen the value of property invested in the different turnpike trusts throughout the kingdom, which is a very considerable sum; but such circumstances should not militate against an invention likely to prove bene¬ ficial to the country at large. Give your opinion on the probable extent of injury to roads from steam carriages? Generally speaking, I should say that the injury roads will sus: tain by the introduction of steam carriages will be much less than is com¬ monly supposed; but the actual amount of injury, or correct estimate of the comparative injury that will be done by a steam carriage, cannot, in my opinion, be formed at present with any degree of certainty. Experience 126 [ Doc. No. 101. 2 alone will decide the point. The only danger, in my mind, that is to be apprehended, is the injury which roads may sustain by the possibility of the wheel which is acted upon by the engine, turning round without propell¬ ing the carriage, in which case the road would suffer considerably; and this would take place if a train of carriages were attached to the engine, the draught of which was more than the friction or gripe of the engine wheel on the surface of the road. As long, however, as the weight is carried by the engine, and not drawn after it, nothing of this kind will take place even on our steepest hills. Have you communicated you conclusions on these subjects to Mr. Tel¬ ford? I have. Does he coincide with you? Quite so. You stated that the only probable injury to the roads from travelling of steam carriages, would be the slipping of wheels; would it not be directly against the interest of the proprietor that the wheels should slip in any de¬ gree, there being a necessary loss of power every time they do slip? Clear¬ ly so. From your observations of the effects produced by heavy carriages drawn by horses in ascending and descending hills, what would be the effect, un¬ der similar circumstances, of a steam carriage of weight equal to the weight of the coach and horses? I am of opinion that the effect or injury to a road would be less by the steam carriage; for when hills exceed a certain rate of inclination, gravity overcomes the friction of the surface, and the car¬ riages, in descending, press upon the horses, unless a drag be applied to one of the wheels. This, in itself, injures the road, but not so much as when no drag is used, because the horses are then obliged to bear against the car¬ riage, and set down their feet very strongly: this often tears up the surface, particularly of weak roads. The time that is lost by the coaches in de¬ scending some of the hills on the road between London and Birmingham, is full as much as is lost in ascending them, besides the imminent danger, even with the greatest caution, on the part of the drivers, if proper springs were used, the draught would be lessened, and of course the injury to the road would be much diminished. On every road there are numerous six horse wagons; you state the weight to be four tons and a half, the horses weighing four and a half more, mak¬ ing nine tons—should any objection be taken toa single steam carriage of this weight, or from nine to ten tons, provided the wheels be of a proper description? No; I think in the general state of roads, a steam carriage of from nine to ten tons could run with perfect safety, without injury to the roads, if it was constructed with proper wheels. The above question refers to a steam carriage carrying its load; if the en¬ gine carriage were of the weight of four tons, drawing a second carriage of the weight of six tons, thus dividing the weight over eight wheels, would the effect on the road be less injurious, provided it was four and a half tire? I think the injury would be less, provided the engine had the power to pro¬ pel itself, and draw a carriage with six tons after it, without a slipping of its wheels. Carrying this principle further, if the load were divided into two car¬ riages, each to weigh three tons, thus dividing the load over twelve wheels, would not less injury still be done? Decidedly; particularly on weak roads. If, under these circumstances, you can diminish the pressure on the road by [ Doc. No. 101. ] 127 multiplying the number of wheels, should not care be taken so to frame the tolls to be levied as not to discourage the use of those steam carriages, whose greater number of wheels could be least injurious to the roads? I think that would be regulated by the mode I have suggested of charging toll. Have you seen Mr. Gurney's carriage, and examined its effect on the roads? I have seen it. What state were the roads in, at what velocity was it going, how many persons did it carry, and what was its weight? I do not know the weight of the carriage, there appeared to be eight or ten people on and about it; the road on which I saw it was excessively bad, one of the worst in the country; the velocity was probably five or six miles an hour. Were there other loaded carriages passing along the road at the same time? Several; both coaches and wagons. Did you remark the effect of the steam carriage on the road, to see that it did less or greater injury than the other carriages? I could not perceive any difference. If there had been any great difference, you would have perceived it? As far as leaving a track behind, which would have been perceived, I could not ascertain the amount of injury: it was nothing more than that done by com¬ mon coaches. , Do you think it essential that the wheels of steam carriages should follow in the same track, provided they have a proper breadth of tire? Not at all as regards the injury to the road; it would require more power to work them if the wheels did not follow in the same track. Supposing the steam carriages, either the propelling carriage and the carriage drawn, or the engine carriage carrying the passengers, were gener¬ ally to be four tons, what would you recommend to be the minimum breadth of tire to either of the carriages? In the present state of steam carriages, as applied to the working over turnpike roads, I should say you might limit them to not less than four inches for a few years. Supposing their averageweight never exceeded from six to eight tons, do you think four and a half would be a safe minimum? I am inclined to think it would be rather too little. Do you think it would be necessary to make any alteration in the form of the present line of turnpike road for the facility of working by steam? I do not think it would be absolutly necessary: it would, however, be of great benefit to the country and every person in it, if the hills on the present lines of road were more reduced, and the surface strengthened. No road should have a greater ascent than one in thirty or one in thirty-five; in almost every instance the expense would be saved in horse labor in a few years. The fol¬ lowing table will show pretty nearly the increase of expense in transport¬ ing goods by stage coaches drawn by horses up planes of different rates of ascent. Roads in general have, in some parts, steep ascents; one in fifteen between this and Birmingham, for instance, is too much on a road of such traffic. The surfaces are not so good generally as they ought to be; the roads should be strengthened, either with a pitched bottoming of stone, or a concrete mass, such as the Highgate archway, or the new road near Coventry. 128 [ Doc. No. 101. ] TABLE. Expense of drawing one ton over one mile at different rates of acclivity, by a stage coach and wagon. Four-horse stage coach, average velo¬ Wagon, four horses, average velocity city 10 miles per hour. 2i miles per hour. Rates of acclivity. Pence and decimals. Rates of acclivity. Pence and decimals. d. d. 1 in 10 77-24 1 in . 10 52-07 1 in 15 57-78 1 in 15 28-70 1 in 20 50-47 1 in 20 22-83 1 in -30 44-15 1 in 30 18-55 1 in 40 41.25 1 in 40 ' 16-79 1 in 50 39 -56 1 in 50 . 15-S2 •1 in 60 38-46 1 in 60 15-20 1 in 70 37-68 1 in 70 14-77 1 in 80 37-09 • 1 in 80 14-46 1 in 90 36-64 . 1 in 90 14-22 1 in 100 36-28 1 in 100 14-04 1 in 150 35-19 1 in 150 13-46 1 in 200 34-64 1 in 200 13-18 1 in 300 34-09 1 in 300 12-91 1 in 500 33-65 1 in 500 12-69 1 in 1,000 33-32 1 • in 1,000 12-53 Horizontal 32-98 Horizontal 12-36 What would be'the difference of expense of pavement, and forming a good granite road,~in the neighborhood of London; say twenty miles? If you take twenty miles, and also take the repairs of the roads for twenty years into account, I should say paving would be the cheapest. The great defect of all the London pavements arises from want of a strong and firm founda¬ tion. In Fleet-street, and some others, this has been partly accomplished of late, but certainly not as perfect as it might be. If on the road from this to Birmingham there was a portion laid off on the side of the road for steam carriages, which could be done without difficulty, and if it be made in a solid manner with pitching and well broken granite, it would fall very little short of a railroad. My only reason for keeping it distinct from the other road, is the evident injury every road sustains from horses travelling over it and breaking up the surface, and the steam carriages would be able to go with greater velocity if they were not interrupted with droves of cattle; besides, it would be easy to fence it off from fifteen to twenty feet, without injury to property; and the expense of making a solid road of twelve or fifteen feet would not be very considerable. [ Doc. No. 101. "] 129 But have you any doubt whatever that steam carriages can be brought into practical use, with great benefit to the public, even on the present lines of turnpike roads? I am'quite convinced they can. Would the wear of such roads as you have described be much affected by ' the greater or less velocity of the steam carriages? It would be hardly i affected at all, on a good road, by increased velocity; if any thing, perhaps ■ rather less. Do you propose in your scheme of toll that weight should be the basis of : toll, but that the wheel be an index to the weight? Yes, that is the princi- : pie on which I haye suggested the scale of tolls. How would you check the frauds of proprietors of steam carriages by : the.ir placing a greater weight in proportion to the breadth of tire? I conceive : the use of the steam carriage would be for passengers solely and their lug- ; gage : if the weight was ascertained in the yards at London, Birmingham, :or Shrewsbury, the intermediate trafic would differ very little, for persons : going short distances would go by the coaches as at present. Would you suggest that a license should be granted to steam carriages, limiting the number of passengers they should take in proportion to the : breadth of tire of the wheel? I think it would be quite as much as the road trustees could expect; and by marking in large characters the width of i wheel on the carriage, it would be a great preventive to the proprietors i altering the wheels. Do you think that, considering the infant state of this invention, that the road trustees would practically suffer any great injury or inconvenience by merely, for two or three years, placing steam carriages, whatever weight they may be, on a level with ordinary carriages, with reference to the toll charged for them? Considering the present imperfect state of steam carriages for turnpike roads, I think it would do no injury to road trusts if such a regulation was adopted. Would you place steam wagons on the same footing as wagons drawn by horses? Yes, provided the wheelsare made, as I described, in proportion to the weight; there should be the same toll on a wagon drawn by steam as a wagon drawn by horses, that is, the width of wheel should be charged per inch as the horses are now charged. Should a steam wagon be licensed, as to its weight, in the same manner as a steam coach? I think just the same. Did you conduct the experiments made on the Holyhead road as to the force of traction required on different inclinations? I did. Were they carefully made or otherwise? They were carefully made as far as the materials would allow; the wagon was a very large one, with common axle-trees; the result in some cases differed from two to three pounds; on the whole, I should say the results stated in that report do not :exceed in any case five pounds beyond what they would be found if proved by the best practical instruments, and are confirmed by my subsequent ob¬ servations and experience. The object we had in view, by these experiments, 'was to show to the trustees and the surveyors of the roads, that a road might appear a very good one, and still not be one adapted for traffic. By these means they have perceived the defective parts in the road; and within three months after the report of the Parliamentary commissioners became public, there was not a hedge on that part of the road where the draught was shown to be excessive, that was not cut down, and improvements made on the sur¬ face. 130 £ Doc. No. 101. ] When you followed Mr. Gurney's carriage, did you perceive that any horses were frightened, or any inconvenience arose to passengers on the road? I did not perceive the least inconvenience. I saw several horses pass, both gig and saddle-horses, .also coaches, and not one took the least notice of it. Veneris, 9° die Septembris, 1831. Colonel Torrens, a member of the committee, examined: Have you considered the effect which will be produced upon British agri¬ culture, by substituting, on common roads, steam carriages for carriages drawn by horses? I have. What do you conceive that effect would be? I think it would produce very beneficial effects upon agriculture. State your reasons for believing that agriculture will be benefited by sub¬ stituting inanimate for animal power, consuming the produce of the soil? I conceive that agriculture is prosperous in proportion as the quantity of pro¬ duce brought to market exceeds the quantity expended in bringing it there. If steam carriages be employed instead of carriages drawn by horses, it will be because that mode of conveyance is found the cheapest. Cheapening the carriage of the produce of the soil must necessarily diminish the quantity of produce expended in bringing a given quantity to market, and will there¬ fore increase the nett surplus, which nett surplus constitutes the encourage¬ ment to agriculture. For example, if it requires the expenditure of two hundred quarters of corn to raise four hundred, and the expenditure of one hundred inore on carriage, to bring the four hundred to market, then the net surplus will be one hundred. If, by the substitution of steam carriages, you can bring the same quantity to market, with an expenditure of fifty quarters, then your net surplus is increased from one hundred to one hun¬ dred and fifty quarters; and consequently, either the farmer's profit or the landlord's rent increased in a corresponding proportion. There are many tracts of land which cannot now be cultivated, because the quantity of pro¬ ducé expended in cultivation and in carriage exceeds the quantity which that expenditure would bring to market. But if you diminish the quantity expended in bringing a given quantity to market, then you may obtain a nett surplus produce from such inferior soils, and consequently allow culti¬ vation to be extended over tracts which could not otherwise be tilled. On the same principle, lowering the expense of carriage would enable you to apply additional quantities of labor and capital to all the so>ls already under cultivation. But it is not necessary to go into any illustrative examples to explain this, it being a well known principle, that every improvement which allows us to cultivate land of a quality which could not previously be culti¬ vated, also enables us to cultivate, in a higher manner, lands already under tillage. If horses were displaced from common roads, would not the demand for oats, beans, and for pasture, be diminished, and land thereby be thrown out of cultivation, and labor out of employment? If steam carriages were very suddenly brought into use, and horses thereby displaced, I think the effect stated in the question would be produced for a time; but, practically, steam carriages can be introduced only very gradually, and the beneficial effect [ Doc. No. 101. ] 131 'upon the profits of trade, by bringing agricultural produce more cheaply to market, will tend to increase profits, to encourage industry, and to enlarge the demand for labor; so that by this gradual process there will probably be no period during which any land can actually be thrown out of cultivation, the increasing population requiring all the food which horses would cease to i consume. With respect to demand for labor, that demand consists of the iquantity of food and raw materials which can be cheaply obtained; and as, by the supposition, the displacing of horses will leave at liberty more food ;and more material, the demand for labor will ultimately be greatly increas¬ ed instead of being diminished. It has been supposed, I know not how ¡accurately, that there are employed on the common roads in Great Britain, one million of horses, and a horse, it is calculated, consumes the food of eight men. If steam carriages could ultimately be brought to such perfec¬ tion as entirely to supersede draught horses on the common roads, there would be food and demand for eight millions of persons. But when we 'take further into consideration, that, lowering the expense of carriage would enable us to extend cultivation over soils which cannot now be profitably i tilled, and would have the further effect of enabling us to apply, with a profit, additional portions of labor and capital to the soils already under ¡tillage, I think it not unfair to conclude, that, were elementary power on the common roads completely to supersede draught horses, the population, 'wealth and power of Great Britain would at least be doubled. There are soils which are stated to be so poor, that oats alone can be rais¬ ed upon them—would not the substitution of steam for horse power have the effect of throwing out of employment the labor required for the cultivation of such lands? If there are soils of such a peculiar quality that oats is the only marketable product which they will yield, the persons employed in 'Cultivating those lands would certainly be thrown out of that particular occupation; but the extension of tillage over other lands not of this pe- ■ culiar quality, would create a demand for labor which would much more than absorb the persons thrown out from the culture of oats upon that land which would grow nothing elsel But I doubt of there being any land which it is profitable to cultivate, which would not raise some other agricultural produce than oats either for man or cattle, for which the increasing population would create a demand. The general impression on the minds of the committee is, thatsteam car¬ riages will, at least for the present, rather be substituted for horses used in conveying travellers, than for the conveyance of bulky articles. Do you think that the substitution of steam in this manner will be injurious to agri¬ culture, and to the demand for labor without any adequate compensating ad¬ vantages? Upon the case supposed, namely, that steam carriages should be em¬ ployed in conveying passengers only, and the whole change to be affected in a sudden manner, I think that there would, in the first instance, be a diminish¬ ed demand lor agricultural produce, but the following process would take place. As the demand for agricultural produce was diminished, the price of such produce would fall, food would become cheaper, and the cheapening of food would benefit partly the laboring class and partly the capitalist—the one obtaining higher real wages, and the other higher profits; this increase in real wages and profits, would effect a great encouragement to manufac¬ turing industry, and would necessarily lead to an increase in. the manufac¬ turing population, and to the amount of capital employed in manufactures. The consequence would be, that, after some degree of pressure upon agricul¬ ture, the increased number of human beings would create the same demand 132 [ Doc, No. 101. ] for agricultural produce which the employment of horses formerly created. So that even upon the extreme and most improbable supposition that steam, carriages should never be employed in conveying agricultural produce to> marketata cheaper rate, still the benefit tbthe country would be very great, inasmuch as we should-have a vastly increased industrious population, andi England would become much more extensively, than she is at present, the great workshop of the world. In point of fact, superseding horses by me¬ chanical power, would have precisely the same effect in increasing the pop¬ ulation and wealth of England as would be produced were we to increase: the extent of the country by adding thereto a new and fertile territory, equal in extent to all the land which now breeds and feeds all the horses em¬ ployed upon common roads. Such addition to the extent of fertile territory in England, suddenly affected, would, in the first instance, lower the value of agricultural produce, and be injurious to the proprietors of the old por¬ tion of the territory, but no person would, therefore, contend that if we could enlarge the island of Great Britian by additional tracts of fertile land, the public interests would be injured by such enlargement: this would be monstrously absurd. It is not less absurd to object to the increase of food available for human beings, by substituting mechanical power for horses. In addition to the advantages you have already anticipated from the in¬ troduction of steam conveyance, would not the increased speed and cheap¬ ness of intercourse occasion vast public benefits in which agricultural capi¬ talists and laborers must greatly partake? Certainly. As it is impossible to conceive that steam should be generally substituted for horses, and be confined only to the conveyance of travellers, and, as it would necessarily be employed as vans and coaches are at present, for the speedy conveyance of light goods as well as travellers, (by the hypothesis steam carriages being cheaper than horse draft, or it would not be used,) would not such cheapening of the conveyance of such goods have a consid¬ erable effect upon the demand for them, and thereby for labor and food? On the principles that have been already stated with respect to agriculture, the eost of bringing all things to market is comprised of the cost of production and the cost of carriage. Reducing the cost of carriage is precisely the same thing in its effects as reducing the immediate cost of production, con¬ sequently the conveyance of light goods by steam power must cheapen all such goods to the consumers. This will necessarily enable them to con¬ sume a greater quantity of such goods, and the consumption of the greater quantity will enlarge the demand for labor, call a larger manufacturing popu¬ lation into existence, and thereby re-act on agriculture by increasing the de¬ mand for food. This cheaper mode of internal carriage will not only lower the price of light and refined manufactures to the home consumer, but will lower their price also to the foreign consumer. This will increase the ad vanta¬ ges which weat present possess in the foreign market, and tend to increase our foreign commerce. So that here again there will be an increased demand for manufactures and fora manufacturing population, and here again will be another beneficial re-action upon the soil. So that the more we contemplate the various effects produced upon the industry of the country by a cheaper mode of conveyance, the more we must be convinced that wealth and population will be increased, and that agriculture, instead of being injured, must necessarily partake in the increased prosperity of the country. In ad¬ dition to what'I have already stated, the saving of expense and of time in conveying passengers and goods, and the rapidity of communication, will pro¬ duce effects, the amount of which it would be almost impossible to calculate. [ Doc. No. 101. ] 133 APPENDIX. APPENDIX A. Answers to queries submitted by the committee to Mr. John Macneill. c Query 1. What is the greatest weight, in proportion to its own weight, which any locomotive steam engine has been found capable of drawing upor a railroad, and at what velocity? In the first edition of Mr. Nicholas Wood's Treatise on Railroads, pub¬ lished in 1S25, he states that a locomotive engine, weighing tons, and containing one ton of water, equal to li tons, dragged twelve loaded car¬ riages, each weighing 9,408lbs., up a plane ascending 134 inches in 1,164 feet, and also the conveying carriage, weighing 1$ tons, the wheels no1 slipping, the rails dry. . He also gives the following experiments made on the Killingworth rail road: The length of plane was 2,260 yards, with an ascent in one directior of 6 feet 5 inches, not uniform, varying from a dead level, or slightly un dulating, to an ascent in one place of 1 in 330. Edge rail, 21 inches broac on the surface; carriages all the same construction, weighing 81$cwt. each wheels 34 inches diameter, axles 2f inches diameter. , I Experiment 29. Wheels, three feet; nine carriages, weighing 731$ cwt., were drawn uj the plane fourteen times in 317 minutes, and fourteen times down theplam in 258 minutes; distance traversed, 36 miles in 9-hours 35 minutes; coal consumed, 2,534 lbs.; water, 890 gallons. Experiment 30. Wheels, four feet; nine carriages, weighing 731$ cwt., were driwn u] the same plane nineteen times in 302 minutes, and nineteen times downthi plane in 265 minutes; distance traversed, 48.8 miles in 9 hours 27 minutes coals consumed, 2,534 lbs. ; water, 854 gallons. Experiment 31. Wheels, four feet; twelve carriages, weighing 975 cwt., were drawn u] the plane nine times in 155 minutes, and nine times down in 133 minutes Distance traversed, 23 miles in 4 hours 48 minutes; coals consumed, 1,54 lbs. ; water, 452 gallons. Experiment 32.—( With a different locomotive engine.) Wheels, three feet; nine carriages, weighing 731$ cwt., were drawn u¡ the same plane ten miles in 212 minutes, and ten times down in 180 minutes Distance, 26 miles; time, 6 hours 32 minutes; coals consumed, 1,487 lbs. water, 490 gallons. 134 [ Doc. No. 101. ] Experiment 33. Wheels, four feet; twelve carriages, weighing 975 cwt, were drawn up the plane five times in 45 minutes 48 seconds, and five times down, in 40 minutes 26 seconds. Distance each journey, 2,002 yards. Total, 11.375 miles; distance passed over in the above time 1,663 yards each journey, or 0.45 miles; time, 1 hour 26 minutes 14 seconds; coals consumed, 587 lbs.; water, 200 gallons. In this experiment, the engine was allowed to traverse a given space, to put the train of carriages into their proper velocity before the time was noted; the time was then marked until the velocity was again checked at the farther end of the stage. This will explain the difference between the two distances stated in the experiment: the one was the whole distance, from the commencement to the end of the stage; the other was that part of the stage which the engine passed over when the regular velocity was ac¬ quired, and before it was again diminished at the end of the stage, to stop the train; the time given, was that which transpired while the engine was passing over that space, while the velocity was uniform, and may therefore be taken as a measure of speed. At page 281, Mr. Wood states: Upon a railroad near Newcastle, a loco¬ motive engine, in fifty-four weeks, conveyed 53,823 carriages of coals, each weighing 9,438 lbs., 2,541 yards, and returned with the same number of empty carriages, each weighing 3,472 lbs. This was in fifty four successive weeks; and, in that time, exclusive of Sundays, the engine, from want of goods to convey, was at least twenty days off work; so that in 304 days, the performance was 446,815 tona conveyed one mile; or 1,470 tons one mile each day, on a stage only 2,541 yards. The engine had three feet wheels, which were calculated for a rate of about 4J miles per hour. Mr. Rastrick, in his report to the directors of the Liverpool and Man¬ chester railway, dated January, 1829, gives the following table of the ab¬ solute quantity of work done by five different locomotive engines, when reduced all to the same standard of five, eight, and ten miles per hour. The carriages proportioned tö the weight of goods, in the same ratio as they were proposed for the Liverpool and Manchester railway, and also of the work that the ten-horse engine, proposed by him and Mr. Walker, would be ca¬ pable of doing: TAULE. — At five miles per hour. ENGINES. RAILROADS. Goods. Car¬ riages. Engine and tender. Engine on six 4 7 feet wheels, > (Hackworth.) 3 Stockton and 7 Darlington, 3 Tons. 47* Tons. 231 Tons. 15 Engine on four 4 7 feet wheels, 5 Stockton and 7 Darlington, 5 34| 17} 12 Engine on four 4 ¿ feet 2 in. wheels, 3 Eillingworth 7 Colliery, 5 38 19 10} Engine on four 3 7 feet wheels, 3 Hetton Colliery, 24* 12 10} Engine on four 7 wheels, rack S- rail, 3 Vliddleton 7 Colliery near > Leeds, 3 22* 11 6* IN SUMMEN. Gross weight. Tona. 86} 64 67} 461 39} At eight miles per hour. Goods. Tons. 26 *8* 21 12} 12* Car¬ riages. Engine and tender. Tons. Tons. 18 15 9t 12 10} 10} 6* 10} 6* 6* Gross weight. Tons. 54 40 42 29* 24| At ten miles per hour. Goods. Tons. 18* 13} 1'5} Sf Car¬ riages. Tons. 9} 71 4} 4} Engine and tender. Tons. 15 12 10} 10} 6* Gross w'ght Tons. 43* 32 32# 23} 19# TABLE—Continued. es a ENGINES. lix 4} '' I rth. ) 3 Engine on six 4 feet wheels. (Hackworth Engine on four 4 feet wheels, Engine on four 4 feet 2 in. wheels, 5 Engine on four 3 feet wheels, Engine on four~ wheels, rack J rail, ' RAILROADS. Stockton and > Darlington, $ Stockton and ) Darlington, J Killingworth Colliery, Hetton Colliery, Middleton j Colliery near > Leeds, ) IN WINTER. At five miles per hour. — m— At eight miles per hour. At ten miles per hour. Goods. Car¬ riages. Engine and tender. Gross w'ght Goods. Car¬ riages. Engine and tender. Gross weight. Goods. Car¬ riages. Engine and tender. Gross weight. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. 401 20* 15 76 211 101 15 471 15* 71 15 38 281 14* 12 55* 15 7* 12 34* 10T4O V. 12 27A 'TO 31* 15| 10* 57* 17 8* 10* 36 12 6* 10* 281 191 91 10* 40 9i 41 10* 25 6* .3* 10* 20 19* 9* 6* 35 10* 5* 6* 21| 7* 31 6* 17* [ Doc. No. 101. ] 137 The engines started for the premium of £500, on the Liverpool and Man¬ chester railway, in October, 1829, were the Rocket, Novelty, and Sans Pareil. The Rocket weighed - - 4 5 --") --Full speed, 30 miles ' tender, with water and coke 3 4-2 in 2h. 14m. 8s., equal to two carriages, loaded - 9 10 3 26 >13T4ff per hour; back, 30 : miles, in 2h. 6m. 9s.; 17 _ _ _J equal to 14,ä0 per hour. Sans Pareil—weight of engine 4 15 2 - tender, with water and fuel 3 6 3 - three carriages - • 1019 3 — 19 2 - - --Full speed, 10$ miles _ in 50m. 49s. equal to >12yk per hour; back, 12 miles in 40m. 27s.; equal to 15TJS per hour. Novelty—weight of engine with ") water in the boiler 5 tank, water and fuel - two carriages, 3 1 - - 16 6 17 - 14 10 14 - 14 - - Total time, 22m. 57s. ; and distance run, 4$ miles. N. B.—The railway was level, and about two miles in length, where the experiments were made. Querv 2. What may be considered as the greatest performance of loco¬ motive carriages previous to the Manchester and Liverpool railway being opened? Mr. Wood, in 1825, states, that the performance of the best locomotive engine was equal to 40 tons, conveyed at the rate of six miles an hour; and four years after, (in 1829,) Messrs. Rastrick and Walker have stated that 48$ tons, conveyed five miles an hour, or 19$ tons conveyed ten miles an hour, was the greatest performance the directors of the Liverpool railway could expect from them. 1 have seen some statements of experiments in which the effective work was greater than the above; but I am inclined to think they could not be so well depended on as those of Messrs. Wood, Rastrick, and Walker. Query 3. What has been the greatest performance of any engine since that period? On the 23d of February, 1831, Mr. Robert Stephenson stated to the Sc^ ciety of Civil Engineers,, that the Northumbrian locomotive engine, weighing 6 tons 3 cwt., drew 50 tons up the inclined plane at Rainhill, at the average rate of 7$ miles per hour: pressure of steam was 50 lbs. on the square inch. The inclination of the ground at Rainhill is 1 in 96. On the 1st of March, 1831, Mr. Locke stated that "the Samson" drew a gross weight of 151 tons, in 30 wagons, (the nett weight being 107 tons,) the whole distance from Liverpool to Manchester, in 2 hours 34 minutes, including 13 minutes of stoppages. The diameter of the wheels was 4 feet 6 inches. 18 138 [ Doc. No. 101. J On the 19th of April, 1831, Mr. Locke stated, that "the Samson" drew up the inclined plane at Rainhill, about 44J tons, gross, of goods and wagons, at the rate of about eight miles an hour. Weight of the engine was 8§ tons; weight of tender, (which was full of water,) 4 tons; making the total-weight of goods, wagons, engine, and ten¬ der, 57 tons; and, calculating the speed of the engine eight miles per hour, she was exerting a force equal to 39 horse power. He also stated that a new engine, " the Jupiter," had just been started. From the 4th of March to 6th of April, she drew 226 wagons (only ten of which were empty,) and 847 coaches, a total distance of 3,426 miles. In one fortnight she made fifty journies, equal to 1,500 miles. Diameter of cylinder, 11 inches; length of stroke, 16 inches; diameter of the wheels, 5 feet. Value of such an engine, £700. APPENDIX B. Proposed scale for turnpike tolls on steam carriages. Every carriage propelled by steam, or other elementary power, carrying only fuel and engineers, and having the tires of the wheels less than two inches and a half, and, But if the carriage draws or propels another, Cwt. Cwt. Weighing 5 and not exc'ding 10 a toll as One horse not drawing then as One horse Two drawing 10 20 . - Two 20 30 - Three - Three 30 40 - F our - Four 40 50 . Five - Fite 50 60 " Six ■ Six Above this weight an arbitrary toll, preventing its exceeding it on narrow wheels. If the tires of the wheels exceed three inches, the tolls should be about one quarter less; and the weight, without injury, may extend to three tons and a half. If the tires of the wheels are six inches wide, the tolls should be about a third less, and the weight allowed to extend as far as four or five tons. £ Doc. No. 101. ] 139 APPENDIX C. RETURN of all turnpike road bills which passed the House of Com¬ mons in session 1830-31, wherein any toll has been imposed on carriages propelled by steam, or other mechanical contrivance, distin¬ guishing the amount of totl charged per horse on stage carriages, vans, wagons, and cars, and the charge on steam carriages. Bedfont road Highgate and Whet¬ stone road Norwich and Yarmouth road Walsall roads Stretford road Tunbridge Wells, and Maresfield road Birmingham & Broms- grove road Perry Bar and Hands- worth road Enfield Chase road - Lemsford Mill road - Linlithgowshire roads Coventry, and Over Whiteacre road Watling Street road - Pinwall Lane road Worthing and Little- ) hampton road $ Leeds and Birstal road Haslemere road Macclesfield & Neth- ) er Tabley road ) Glamorganshire roads Cleeve and Evesham road Pucklechurch roads - Leicester and Welford road Lampeter roads Llandovery and Llan- ) gadock road J Stage coaches, &c. per horse. 6d. ,6d. 4d. 5d. 6d. Gd. 4d. 6d. 4¿d. 4$d. 6d. 8d. 6d. 6d. 7$d. 9d. 4d. •2d. 3d. 4¿d. 4£d. 4^d. 4d. 7^d. For 1 horse, ( Is. 6d.; two ) horses, 2s.; 3 . or 4 ditto, 4s. Wagons, vans, &c. according to the breadth of the wheels per horse. 4d. 5d. 6d. 2£d. 3d. 4$d. 4£d. 6d. 8d. 3d. 4£d. 6d. 6d. For 1 horse, 6d. 2 do. lOd. 3 do. 3s. 4 do. 4s. 5 do. 6s. 6 do. 8s. 3d. 2d. 3d. 4d. 4}d. 4d. 5d. 6d. 4¿d. 4d. 5d. 6d. 6d. 4d. 5d. 6d. Sd. 6d. 7jd. 9d. 4Jd. 4Jd. 6d. 6d. 3d. 6d. Gd. 9d. 9d. 6d. Gd. 7¿d. 9d. 4jd. 3d. 3}d. 4d. 6d. 4jd. 5^d. 6d. 6d. 4¡¡d. 5jd. 6d. Propelled by machinery. Carriages with two wheels. Carriages with four wheels. 6d. per wheel for all carriages. Is. 6d. 2s. for all carriages. 2s.6d. for all carriages. The same toll as if drawn by 4 horses. Íls. per ton weight for all carriages. ( For locomotive en¬ gines drawing car¬ riages, 2s.; for steam carriages for passen¬ gers, &.C., Is. 6d. 2s. 6d. for all carriages. Is. for all carriages. Is. 6d. One penny per cwt. for all carriages. 2s. 6d. for all carriages. 2s. 6d. for all carriages, 2s. 6d. for all carriages. Íls. per wheel for all carriages. 2s. per wheel for all carriages. Is. Í9d. per wheel for all carriages. Is. 6d. Is. 6d. Is. per cwt Is. for all carriages. The same toll as if drawn by 4 horses. C The same toll as if ( drawn by 4 horses. 140 [ Doc. No. 101. ] APPENDIX C—Continued. Bathgate roads Titchfield & Coeham ) road . J Cheadle roads Bruton roads Coventry and Stony Stanton road Liverpool and Preston ¡ road < Stage coaches, &.c. per horse. Is. 3d. 6d. 6d. 6d. 3d. 6d. Wagons, vans, &c. according to the breadth of the wheels per horse. f Fori horse,9d. ? if more than 1, ( 6d. per horse. 3d. 3fd. 4¿d. 4d. 5d. 9d. 4Jd. 6d. 74d. 9d. 4d. 5d. 6d. ' If drawn by 4 or 5 horses,Is., Is. 5d., 2s. 3d I 2s. 5d. If by I 2 or 3 horses [4d., 6d.,8d. Propelled by machinery. Carriages with two wheels Í 2s. 9d. for all car- < riages not exceeding ( 25 cwt. < 2s. per wheel for all ( carriages. 5s. for all carriages. 4s. for all carriages. 2s.6d. for all carriages. If not exceeding one ton, 6d. per wheel; and 6d. per wheel for every further ton weight. APPENDIX D. RETURN of all private bills which have passed the House of Com¬ mons, wherein any toll has been imposed on carriages propelled by steam or other mechanical contrivance, distinguishing the amount of toll charged per horse on stage carriages, vans, wagons, and cars, and the charge on steam carriages. Kidwelly roads Lynn (east gate) road Lynn (south gate) road Handsworth road Aylsham road Cheltenham roads Liverpool and Prescot ) road ) Abergavenny roads - Stage coaches, &c. per horse. 6d. 4d. 4d. 6d. 3d. 8d. Is. 6d. and Is. 6d. Wagons, vans, &c. according to the breadth of the wheels. 4d. 5d. 6d. 3d. 3Jd. 4Jd. 3d. 3id. 44d. 6d. 8d. 9d. 2d. 6d. 8d. lOd. Is. 8d. 9d. Is. Propelled by machinery. Carriages with three, or a less number of wheels. 2s. for two-wheeled carriages - 2s. 6d. for all carriages. 2s. 6d. for all carriages. The same toll as if drawn by 4 horses. 9d. 3s. for all carriages. Sis. 6d. for every horse¬ power for all carriages. The same toll as if drawn by four horses. Carriages with four £ Doc. No. 101. 3 APPENDIX D—Continued. 141 -Drogheda roads St. Alban's road Sunderland roads Wisbech and Thorney road Frome roads Huddersfield & Wood head road Wakefield and Auster lands road Monmouth roads Wakefield Ings road Stirlingshire roads Exeter roads - Teignmouth & Daw- liBh road Darlington road Stage coaches, &c. per horse. 6d. 6d. 4¿d. 6d. 6d. Cd. 6d. Sd. 3d. Is. 3d. 8d. 9d. If drawn by 2 or 3 horses, 8d.; if by 4 or more hor¬ ses, 6d. If drawn by 2 or 1 horse, 10d.; if by 4 horses, 8d. and if by 6 horses, 6d. per horse. Wagons, vans, &c. according to the breadth of the wheels. 2d. 4d. 6d. Is. 3d. 4d. 9d. is. 3d. 3|d. 4Jd. 6d. 7d. 8d. 3d. 4d. 4Jd. 4d. 5d. 6d. 5d. 6d. 7d. Is. Id. lid. 2d. If not exceeding 25 cwt., 9d.; if between 25 and 30 cwt. Id. in addition, and so in propor¬ tion. If drawn by one horse only, 9d.; if by two or more horses, 6d. per horse. 9d. 6d. 8d. lOd. Propelled, by machinery. Carriages with three, or a less number of wheels. The same toll as if drawn by two horses. Is. 6d. 6d. for every horse pow¬ er for all carriages. 2s. for all carriages. 2s. 6d. for all carriages. 2s. 6d. for all carriages. Is. 6d. 6d. ' 2s. 6d. for every car¬ riage not exceeding 25 cwt.; if between 25 and 30 cwt. Id. per cwt. in addition, and so in propor¬ tion. If not exceeding one ton, 6d. per wheel; if more than one ton, 6d. per wheel in ad¬ dition, and 6d. per wheel for every fur- . ther ton weight. If not exceeding one ton, 6d. per wheel; if more than one ton, 6d. per wheel in ad¬ dition, and 6d. per wheel for every fur¬ ther ton weight. Is. Carriages with four or more wheels. Private Bill Office, House of Commons, August 22, 1831. EDW. JOHNSON. APPENDIX E. SCALE for fixing Tolls on the various kinds of Steam Carriages equivalent to Horse Coaches, calculated on the com¬ parative wear and tear of roads. [Given in to the Committee by Mr. Gurnet.] The following Scale of Proportions is taken from a trust where the tolls fixed are three pence for every horse drawing, and one penny not drawing-, and may be applied to determine the tolls on any other trust, where the tolls are fixed at a higher or lower rate. » Every Steam Carriage with the tires of the wheels under two inches and a half, and Every Steam Carriage with the tires of the wheels not less than four inches, and Weighing But not ex¬ ceeding Shall pay a toll, when drawing one car¬ riage on¬ ly, of Not draw¬ ing any carriage W eighing But not ex¬ ceeding Shall paya toll,when drawing one car¬ riage on- ly, of Not draw¬ ing Weighing But not ex¬ ceeding Shall pay a toll,when drawing one car¬ riage on¬ ly, of Not draw¬ ing Cwt. Cwt. s. d. d. Cwt. Cwt. s. d. d. Cwt. Cwt. s. d. d. 5 10 0 3 1 10 20 0 4 1 20 30 0 3 1 10 20 0 6 2 20 30 0 6 14 30 40 0 5 14 20 30 0 9 3 30 40 0 8 2 40 50 0 7 2 30 40 1 0 4 40 50 0 10 3 50 60 0 9 24 40 50 1 3 5 50 60 1 0 4 60 70 0 11 3 50 60 1 6 6 60 70 \ 2 44 70 80 1 1 34 above 60 for every ex¬ above 70 for every ex¬ above 80 for every ex¬ tra 100 wt. 0 3 1 tra 100 wt. 0 2 i tra 100 wt. 0 14 4 Every Steam Carriage with the tires of the wheels not less than six inches, and u O O O N. B.—The carriage and load drawn by the steam carriage, shall not exceed double the weight of the drawing carriage. APPENDIX F. EXTRACTS from Seventh Report of the Holyhead Road Commissioners, showing the number of lbs. required to draw a wagon of the weight of 21 cwt. 8 lbs. at the rate of 2\ miles per hour. Parts on which the experiments were tried. No. 1.—Piccadilly Pavement: From Strntton-streetto Devonshire House Devonshire House to Dover-ötrcct Dover-street to James-street * St. James-street to Bond-street - Bond-street to Burlington Arcade Burlington Arcade to Albany-court No. 2.—Archway Road: Between toll-bar and new house on the right Between new house and Depot No. 1 Between Depot No. 1, and Archway Between Archway and lamp No. 11 Between eleventh and twelfth lamp posts - Between twelfth and thirteenth lamp posts Between thirteenth and fifteenth lamp posts Between nineteenth and twenty-first lamp posts Between twenty-first and twenty-second lamp posts Between twenty-second lamp post and M'Pherson's Between Wellington inn and Whetstone- road « o g . § o-a Rise, 1 in 114 Rise, 1 in 150 Ful!, 1 in 429 Rise, 1 in 245 Fall, 1 in 286 Horizontal « Rise, 1 in 23 Rise, 1 in 23 Rise, 1 in 22 Rise, 1 in 49 Rise, 1 in 229 Horizontal • Fall, 1 in 382 Rise, 1 in 27 Rise, 1 in 27 Rise, 1 in 3,437 Horizontal - e -G a> G JÉ tUD O w r: 0 cd 0) ■a cd ce ^ P Oll G -a 0» « "O .2 G cd G v- -2 0 Ë r s CD '3 c 0 0 Ob u CA-. O -3 Horizontal Rise, 1 in 20$ Fall, 1 in 119 Horizontal Rise, 1 in 45 Rise, 1 in 27 Rise, 1 in 66 Rise, 1 in 3,437 Fall, 1 in 3,437 Rise, 1 in 20 Rise, 1 in 21 Rise, 1 in 22$ Rise, 1 in 39 Rise, 1 in 71$ Rise, 1 in 31 Rise, 1 in 26 Rise, 1 in 50 a o a \3 cr et 97 232 93 120 12S 136 115 60 57 270 292 343 123 95 130 145 90 ' -a l g » ? 2 S « O 115 19$ 52$ 87 35$ 1 1 119 112 103 60$ 33 76 91 47 g g -g