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TESTIMONY
G. R. BLANCHARD, Esq.,
ASSISTANT RECEIVER OF THE ERIE RAILWAY,
BEFORE THE HOOSAC TUNNEL .«AèîD TROY & GREENFIELD
RAILROAD COMMITTEE.
Makch 13, 1877,
BOSTON:
ALBERT J. WEIGHT, STATE ERINTER,
79 Milk Street (corner of Federal).
1877.
iillE" ' !t¿¿
¡alaiHii'ir ■
TESTIMONY
G. R. BLANCHARD, ESQ.,
ASSISTAKT BECEIVEE OF THE EBIE EAILffAT,
BEFORE THE HOOSAC TUNNEL AND TROY & GREENFIELD
RAILROAD COMMITTEE.
March 13, 1877.
BOSTON;
ALBERT J. WRIGHT, STATE PRINTER,
79 Milk Street (corner of Federal).
1877.
2 THE BOOS AC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
FIFTH HEAEING.
Tuesday, March 13, 1877.
The Committee met at 10 o'clock, Senator Bowman in the chair,
who stated that the Committee were ready to proceed.
Mr. Burt. Mr. Blanchard of the Erie Railroad is present, and I
should like to have him occnpj" the time for about an hour.
Q. (By Mr. Burt.) How long have you been connected with
the management of the Erie Railroad Company?
A. Since four years ago the first of October.
Q. Previous to then, what was 3'our position?
A. I was in charge of the freight business of the Baltimore &
Ohio Railroad for six j'ears at Baltimore, and two j-ears in the W est
with the same interest, making eight years in all.
Q. What length of line, or of road, has the New York & Erie
Railwaj' to-da3' within its control?
A. About 9G0 miles.
Q. That reaches the principal cities of the West?
A. That reaches, so far as the road proper is concerned, Dun¬
kirk, Buffalo, Cleveland and Suspension Bridge, and via those
points all the cities reached b3' the connecting roads of the New
York Central, as well as our own lines, and also reaches, via Sala¬
manca, points the New York Central does not reach.
Q. Will you state to the Committee, in a short wa3', the tonnage
of your road during the past year, as compared, sa3', with the New
York Central?
A. I cannot tell readil3' the tonnage of the Erie Railway Com-
pan3' ; but in round numbers it was six millions of tons against six
and three-quarters millions b3^ the New York Central. If Gen. Burt
will permit me to go on and make some general statements in my
own way, I shall be glad to do so, and answer his questions after¬
ward.
Mr. Burt. Take your own way. You had 3'our attention called
to this line, to Boston and its New England connections. State, in
your own wa3', the position of the Erie road with reference to this
matter, and what you desire?
Mr. Blanchard. I want, first, to express my obligations to 3'ou,
Mr. Chairman, and the members of the Committee, for your kindness
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
3
in postponing the hearing until to-day, in order that the interests I
am here to represent might be heard. Our absence before has been
unavoidable.
As the Erie Railway, both in itself and its far-reaching connec¬
tions and traflic abilities, seems insuBlcientlj' known in New Eng¬
land, in its practical carrying resources, I am glad to be called
before gentlemen who are intelligent, and who are making it their
business to apprise themselves, and, through them, the cultivated
constituency of the State, of the relations and bearings of this ques¬
tion, and to explain the business and the connections of the com¬
pany. There is not, to-daj', upon the face of the earth, as great a
practical railway, or transportation-monopoly of any kind, as that
which is now enjoj^ed by one of the four trunk lines (the New
York Central Company) to and from the great West and the States
comprising New England, whether considered in the volume of its
all-rail traffic, the regularity of its movement, or the value of its
imports and shipments. To endeavor to get an alternate outlet
and inlet for that traffic, and thus secure what advantages might
result from competition, it is ray understanding, from a cursory
reading of the legislation which has been enacted regarding the
Hoosac Tunnel and the state railways, that it was the purpose of
the Commonwealth to complete and secure a competing line from
the city of Boston and intermediate points, to and from the consuming
and producing West, over the whole distance.
So far as the State itself is concerned, it has now entered into
competition with its own citizens, and with their capital and enter¬
prises by the completion of a line to the western limit of the State
and for the purpose of connecting its great works with the rival
lines west of the Hudson River. There are two rival lines, the New
York Central and the Erie routes, ready to do this business reaching
to and from all points in the West. Intermediate between these
rival works of the State and the two rival routes west of them,
lies but one line of railroad which, so far, has not been brought
into such relations with the Erie and the Delaware & Hudson Canal
Company's joint systems as to enable them to develop the tonnage
which they stand ready to develop in both directions.
As to the extent of the system reached by and through their
joint systems, and their abiiity to cope with our friends of the New
York Central, we say, first, that they desire to enter into active and
efficient, but just, honorable and fair competition for this vast busi¬
ness. We are not here to make any extravagant promises as to
what we will do ; but we believe that our interests, and those of
Massachusetts, alike require this mutual and untrammelled channel
and means for the interchange of business. If it shall be said by
4
THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
anj-body that the Erie Eailway Company cannot do the business,
and that it has not or cannot provide the facilities for doing it,
I only point to the fact that by the last annual reports of the Dela¬
ware & Hudson and the Erie companies, which I represent to¬
day, their aggregate tonnage west of the Hudson River exceeded
the whole tonnage of the New York Central by one and a quarter
million tons during last year, and a much greater excess taking
the Hudson River as a dividing line for the Central. As to our
ability to cope with it in point of distance, I wish to say that the
New York Central from Buffalo to New York is 22 miles longer-
than the Erie. The New York Central seems to, have no diffi¬
culty in successfully competing for the business between Cincin¬
nati and New York, although it presents a very much longer route
for the freight business than that via the Pennsylvania. It also
runs through passenger cars, and does everything practicable to
secure that business. In addition to these facts, as to and from
New York proper, the New York Central has anfiounccd its ability
to carry property from Cincinnati to New York, a distance of 302
miles greater than the distance from Cincinnati to Baltimore, at
a price which is equal to the price which is charged from Cincin¬
nati to Baltimore. If it be true that its line, so much longer
and more circuitous, can compete successfully, as it is doing to-day
(and as the Erie Railway Company is doing in conjunction with it
to-day), for the business of the "West to and via New York, I think
that the argument that we are from 30 to 50 miles longer than the
Central, via Binghamton to the West, is hardl3' worthy of discussion,
and should not be presented bj' aii}^ one in its interest. I under¬
stand, too, that the citizens of Boston desire, expect and believe that
foreign freights can and should be sent via Boston as cheap as via
Baltimore and Philadelphia, ignoring the differences of distance. If
you ask a disparil}' of 100 to 400 miles ignored on this traffic, one of
from 30 to 50 miles cannot be worthy your adverse consideration.
If the Grand Trunk, with 150 miles in excess of the distance via
Albany, is able to bring into Boston 80 per cent, of the live-stoek
of Chicago, I can see no reason why the Erie Compan3% 100 miles
shorter than the Grand Trunk line, cannot bring you a fair share
of that and all other business.
I might multiply these examples, but have taken only the most
salient and striking ones. I have prepared hurriedly upon this sub¬
ject, a very brief statement covering a few points of the differences of
distances, which I have more generally referred to. The New York
Central road is longer by 123 miles from Cincinnati to New York
than is the Pennsylvania. It is longer by 31 miles than is the Erie
road ; still it does the Cincinnati business successfully. From Chi-
1877.] HOUSE—No. 201. 5
»
cago to New York the New York Central line is longer than the
Pennsylvania route by 80 miles, and .longer than the Erie road by
25 miles. It is the established railroad policy of the country that
short lines shall make the rates, and longer lines may or may
not carry the property at those prices as they shall elect. I trust
that nothing further is needed in the matter of distances with the
Committee to demonstrate the fact that we stand ready to do this
business, and do it successfully.
Now, as to the business which the Erie Company seeks to bring to
New England. We have on our line, together with the Delaware
& Hudson Compau}-, an aggregate of coal transportation of the
last year of more than five millions of tons. What proportion of
that ma}' come to New England, how much it may be increased,
what can be done to develop its tendency in this direction, and how
much we can do to cheapen your fuel, are all questions which I
understand are peculiarly within the province of your Committee.
Looking not only at the coal trade, in addition to that tonnage we
have upon our line,—at a shorter distance than by the New York
Central by more than 50 miles, and nearer the seaboard than the
older oil-producing country by more than that,—a production of two
or three thousand barrels of petroleum per day, and the quantity
increases monthly. That business desires an outlet to New Eng¬
land which we have not been able to give it, and you get none of
it via any route.
We have also upon and via our line a live-stock trade which, with
the completion of the third rail to Waverley, will enable us to estab¬
lish live-stock yards at Binghamton, from which animals could be
sent to the Albany, Boston, Philadelphia, or New York markets,
and we are thus the only one of the trunk lines which could offer
that choice to those who desire to ship their stock by rail. AVhen
such a choice and variety'of markets could be offered, it is reasona¬
ble to presume we could give you as much transportation of animals
as any other line, if not more.
In addition to these articles, we have the local leather, grain,
lumber and other tonriages on our road, which seeks an outlet in
this direction, and which at present goes via New York to but a
limited number of New England points.
Now, it may be said that even if we have or can secure this large
amount of tonnage, what are our connections, by which we can
develop them and a Western business? I answer, that we have every
Western rail-connecting line that the New York Central has, and one
more, the Atlantic & Great Western Railway. By these lines we
reach every point that the New York Central reaches, and many that
it does not, always excepting those upon "the line of its own road.
6 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE.
In addition to these inlets and outlets, we have a fleet of steamers
on the great Lakes, with twice the carrying capacity of the fleet run¬
ning to and from the New York Central.
It would be strange if, with all the connections which they have,
and with one other which they have not, and with a fleet of steamers
double the capacity of theirs, we could not bring at least a volume
of business to New England which would be not only worthy of
your attention, but your strenuous efforts to secure. That, so far
as the freight business is concerned. ■
Now as to the passenger business, precisely the same relationship
prevails. I refer again to the increased distance over which the New
York Central runs. It runs competing passenger trains and sleep¬
ing coaches between New York and Cincinnati, Louisville, Indian¬
apolis, and St. Louis, on distances var^'ing from 80 to 120 miles
longer than the short routes, and on differences of time varying
from 5 to 11 .hours. With such marked disparities against it on
that traffic, how can it cause representations to be presented to your
Committee, with any degree of fairness, that we cannot overcome
differences of 30 to 50 miles, and from one to two hours of time,
with more certainty and success. It may then be asked. Why
have you not before attempted to get an inlet and outlet with New
England ? I reply that, in cooperation with the enlightened policy
of the State of Massachusetts, the Erie Railway Company at¬
tempted, under former administrations, to seek, by the Boston,
Hartford & Erie Railroad, one of its proposed connections and
outlets.
The history of that enterprise is better known to many of j'ou than
it is to me, as I was not connected with the Erie Railway Company
at that time. It may, however, be safely assumed that the State
did not lend its credit and influence to that route, which was longer
' O
in comparative distance than the one now-under discussion to most
Western points, until, and unless its able governors and advisers
were at the time amply convinced of both the carrying and compet¬
ing abilities of the Erie and its connections. Since then, the diffi¬
culties which have laid in the waj' of doing the Western business to
the satisfaction of forwarders and receivers of New England Uave
been of a physical character, and such as we could not promise to
absolutely overcome until recentlj-. Thej' were, the exceptional
gauge of the Erie Railway, which, being six feet, while the connec¬
tions are four feet eight and one-half inches, required to enter into
competition for this business with a delaying and expensive transfér¬
ât Buffalo, and another at Binghamton. About a year since, the
Delaware & Hudson Company, as lessees of the Albany & Susque¬
hanna road, narrowed the former wide gauge of that road to the
1877.] HOUSE—No. 201. 7
standard gauge of the country, of four feet eight and one-half
inches.
Shortly after that time, the Erie Company, under contract with
the Lehigh Valley Company, laid a third line from Waverley to
Buffalo, a distance of 170 miles, and further extended it to connect
with all the Canada roads, via both routes that cross the Niagara
River at the International and Suspension bridges, giving us a
narrow-gauge line of 200 miles. This track has been laid in the
midst of the greatest financial and transportation depression that
this country has seen for years, which seems proof enough of the
vitality of the Erie Railway as a competing route, and of its ability
to deal with this business if it can find the necessary and harmonious
connections through the Tunnel. When it was found that the alter¬
ing of the two gauges, as stated, had brought the narrow-gauge
system of the entire West within forty miles of uninterrupted com¬
munication with j-ou, our attention was naturally again drawn to the
vast traffic of New England, the thought and fact being if that
forty miles could be provided with a corresponding narrow-gauge
line, we would be able to transport all kinds of property,—oil from
the wells, live-stock from their grazing-grounds, provisions from the
packing-houses, and coal from the mines, — and deliver them all
to 3'our citizens at their homes and marts in New England, and
take their manufactures in return, by alternate complete narrow-
gauge lines between j'ou and the West, which would accomplish the
purposes which the State has long and wisely had in view, and
labored and spent millions aiid years to secure. At the time that
this matter presented itself anew, and thus definitely' to our minds,
a discussion was had with our receiver upon the question (the road
having two years ago passed into the control of the courts) ; and in
passing through Boston, some nine or ten months since, I had the
pleasure of an informal conference with the president of the Fitch-
burg Railroad Company, who, in the fair spirit in which he has here¬
tofore met the questions presented to him by the Erie Railway Com¬
pany, or to anybody in connection or absolute interest with his
road, entertained the proposition promptly, and stated that he would
be glad to have the representatives of the united companies west of
the Hudson River pass over his line, and see if mutual arrange¬
ments were desirable and could be made for the benefit of the trade
and of all parties concerned.
His questions were then mainly directed to our ability to form
this physical connection, and as to the difficulties which might arise
from the exceptional gauge still existing between Waverley and
Binghamton, over the forty miles. Being unable personally to
pledge a change of that gauge between those points, I returned to
8 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. . [Mar.
New York, and in discussion with our receiver, was authorized by
him subsequently to say, that within thirty days from the time when
any such arrangement could be made as would give us the inlet and
outlet to New England upon equal, fair, and permanent terms to
justify, that rail should be provided and the gauge so narrowed, and
under orders of the court, could and should be laid. That assurance
removed the last possible objection that could be made by transport¬
ers, or by any one who desired to compete with existing routes, for
the accomplishment of which purpose your grand old Commonwealth
had for fifteen years labored with its best brain, and for which shç
had expended $15,000,000. After farther conference with the Fitch-
burg Companj-, a trip was arranged and made for the furtherance of
this undertaking and purpose. Mr. Pullman, whose name is well
known to 3'ou all, Mr. Dickson, the president of the Delaware &
Hudson Companj', and myself, with other officers of the companies
interested, and constituting a positively authorized representation—
and I will use the term afithorized advised^'—of all the traffic
departments of the united lines west of the Hudson River, came
east and looked over the ground carefullj^, via the Tunnel. We
were unfortunate in not having the cooperation in our efforts at that
time of any of the officers of the Troy & Boston road, who were
unexpectedly called away on other business. To saj' that we were
gratified at the extent of their terminal facilities which were pre¬
sented to our attention by the Fitchburg officers, at the excellence
of the roadwaj' and superstructure, the comprehensive advantages
possessed by the Fitchburg road to receive, deliver and forward
your merchandise,. is only to do justice to the management and
prevision of that compan}*'. In the completeness of its stock-yai'ds ;
in the facility of access to the different streets of. Boston ; in the
neutral fairness of its management, and the tone that pervaded
every discussion of its polic}' that we had with them, we had noth¬
ing left to ask or fear if continued. The president of the Fitch¬
burg Company .was kind enough to take the company of gentle¬
men, and return with them to Tro}', where, after a discussion with
our friends of the Troy & Boston road, tlie main facts I have now
presented and will present,—and there are those in the room who
can verify them', if desired,—were stated to them, to which we re¬
ceived for answer, that at the excessively low rates then prevailing,
there was nothing in the situation to justify the opening of an
additional line between the West and New England ; tliat had the
New York Central Companj' offered the formation of this Hoosae
line at the low rates then prevailing, the Troy & Boston Company
would have declined to enter into the negotiations, or the line, it
was understood by us at that time, that on the advancement of the
1877.] HOUSE—No. 201.
9
rates, and the cessation of the railroad war then prevailing, the Erie
Company' and the Delaware & Hudson Company would hear from
the united line east of Troy as to its future policy, and I left with
the expectation that we would soon be able to utilize the route
between the West and Boston harmoniously with all interests. The
railroad war ceased, as is generali}' known, early in December.
Prior and subsequent to. that, however, the rates which had ruled
as low as twenty cents per hundred pounds, from Chicago to New
York and Boston, were advanced to thirty, and thirty-five, and later
to forty cents ; but no advices were conveyed to the Erie Railway
Company, directly or indirectly, by the Troy & Boston Company,
that its line was then, or could be at any time, prepared to receive
the business from us, which in the October previous it had declined
and delayed, ostensibl}' for the reasons stated.
Still desiring to get this connection, we opened a renewed corre¬
spondence with the Fitchburg Company to ascertain if in the altered
relations and status of the matter, the rates, etc., we could get such
a line as we desired ; and in justice to our friends of the Fitchburg
Company, I read the response of the president of that road :—
Peesident's Office, Fitcheürg Ratleoad, )
Boston, Mass., March 1, 1877. >
G. R. Blanchard, Esq., Erie Railroad Company, New York.
Dear Sir;—Your letter, under date 2tth inst., is at hand, and contents
noted.
I am perfectly willing that your company should have the same rates
as any other does over the lines which we control ; and at the next meet¬
ing of our board of directors will have this officially confirmed.
Mr. Robinson will be here in a few days, and I doubt not he will be
willing to make a similar agreement.
I am yours truly,
(Signed) Wm. B. Stearns, President.
That, however, brought us a pledge only so far as the com¬
panies under the control of Mr. Stearns were concerned, although
he expressed a belief in the like policy of the Troy & Boston Com¬
pany, which its acts and testimony before your Committee have not
only not sustained, but which he has antagonized. The Erie Com¬
pany then asked Mr. Stearns whether or not that letter covered the
whole line from Troy to the termini of his roads, or whether it would
require independent or other negotiations with the Troy & Boston
road. He replied that Mr. Robinson, of the Troy & Boston, under¬
stood tliat a contract had been made with the Delaware & Hudson
Company which migtit be construed by the Troy & Boston Company
to cover that business, although he did not so construe it. Upon
returning to New York, I saw the president of the Delaware &
. 2
10
THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
Hudson Companj*, and stated to him the information which I had
learned in Boston just repeated, and asked him if it was his under¬
standing that his proposed contract would cover our through busi¬
ness. He stated that, although neither the Fitchburg road nor his
own company had provided in the proposed contract for any mini¬
mum rates, when the contract reached the Troy & Boston road, it
was at once stipulated by the latter that no property should pass
over its line at a less rate than one cent per ton per mile to or from
the Delaware & Hudson. It was, however, his belief and assurance
that this applied solely to business originating upon the lines of the
Delaware & Hudson Company.
Mr. Dickson has reiterated this belief and these facts to me in his
oiHce, during the past week, confirming Mr. Stearns in that regard.
Contrary to both these beliefs, it is now stated to us that the vice-
president of the Troy & Boston road understands that this minimum
does apply not 0013- to the business orginating and terminating upon
the lines of the Delaware & Hudson Compaii}-, and other parties to
the contract, as Mr. Stearns and Mr. Dickson both understood, but
is made to apply, sweepingly and unexpectedly, to all business
which comes via that line, thus barring us out of the traffic.
Now, I have only been able to arrive, in the most cursory way, and
after the most hurried reading, at some of the testimon}' which has
been offered before your Committee. What we have asked, what we
we think we had a right to ask, what we think the State reserved
the right and should feel it a duty to ask and provide for us, what
the Fitchburg Railroad Corapan3' conceded promptly, what we think
ever}' merchant of the State had a right to ask and insist upon, was,
that the lines from Troy eastward put, so far as connections west¬
ward were concerned, the Erie route upon precisely the same terms
as an}' other most favored, not only in fact and act, but in spirit
and cooperation. If the Erie Railway Company and the Delaware
& Hudson Company, through any physical or financial infirmities,
any difficulties of grade, distance, or anything else, then fail to
deliver and take the property which requires their services for its
transportation, that is a matter for us, but not for our rivals, to
regret. I am, therefore, disposed to doubt the accuracy of testimony
reported to me as given here, that any gentleman comes before the
Committee and says that the same offers have been made to both
lines, and then proceeds in the next words of his argument to main¬
tain that we cannot give them any business ! We hardly think that
is what the Committee are here to concede, if he does.
Either we have or have not facilities, and can or cannot secure a
fair share of this great business. If we have the ability, and can
secure the business, I point to your state legislation and policy—
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
11
and the fact stated by the gentleman himself, that he has offered us
in the past what he then believed us entitled to—to prove that we
are entitled to equal rates, time, facilities, and treatment from the
Troj' & Boston Company and all its eastern connections, and ask
in default of receiving it, the State to enforce its and our mutual
rights in the premises. If, on the other hand, we have so many dis¬
advantages that we cannot handle or receive the business, what
harm can come to you, us, to them, to our rivals from giving these
rights to us ?
In either case, we are equally clearly entitled to them, so far as
we are concerned ; we have, and we knoio that we have (it is not a
matter of surmise with us, as with our critics),—we know that
we have transported during the last year, six millions of tons of
merchandise ; within three-quarters of a million of tons of that
transported during the same time by the New York Central, with
its vast New England commerce.
We knoio that all these local resources exist within, of and by our¬
selves ; we know that the aggregate of our tonnage amounts to so
much, and all we have to ask, and all we do ask, is, that the State of
Massachusetts, and the citizens of New England generali}-, who are
reached by the way of the Tunnel, shall have the right to take this
property from or to Troy via our route if they desire, not with any
minimum rates interposed against any one line which is not applied
to all lines, but upon precisely the same terms, conditions and pro¬
visions, in every respect, that property is taken from or to the like
points of connection with any and all other lines. That I am here
to ask in the name of the Erie Railway Company, and in the name
of the Delaware & Hudson Canal Company, and the public who
desire to use them ; I am not here to go any further than that. I
am here to respectfully urge and insist upon .that. I am not here
to ask any questions relating to the use of the Tunnel, or to urge
or demur to any disposition proposed by this bill towards the Fitch-
burg Railroad. I am here to make the gentlemen of the Committee
acquainted, if practicable, with the resources which are outside of,
but knocking at your doors and asking to be admitted to j^our
towns through the now locked gates of Troy, and to expose, if I
can, the fallacies whicli keep them locked to us, or when we ask
for a key, give us one that will not fit or open them.
Mr. Chairman : We understand, and we presume the Committee
equally comprehends, that as the New York Central Company now
enjoys the monopoly I have referred to, and is and will be jeal¬
ous of its continuance, it will seek to inspire, and possibly has
already inspired, the opposition to our entrance to New England by
this or any pther route, such policy, unwisely as we think, being
12 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
regarded by it as to its interest. Is any more complete answer
required to the suggestion, that we cannot get or do New England
business?
The J' Jcnow we can. Thej^ meet us in actual rivalry at New York,
Buffalo, Eochester, and every point west of Buffalo, and they do not
underestimate or belittle our carrying abilit}»^ ; and if they did, the
facts stated and our relative tonnage would controvert them. In
this one regard, the testimony of their acts is more significant than
the comments of those to whom our through competing traffic is new
and comparatively unknown, or the result of but a year's experi¬
mental knowledge of but one route.
To perpetuate their almost exclusive access to this traffic, the Erie
Company has the light of its past rivalry with that great company
to point our surmises as to their probable course in this instance.
We have had parallel instances of opposition in the West, where they
and we both now use in harmon}' the same lines. They have in
the West intimated a withdrawal of their traffic from certain lines in
certain contingencies, but in none of them have I ever known such a
course to be actually inaugurated. Although the New York Central
interests, policy and management have controlled the Lake Shore
road, and through it great tributary interests, they have wisely
refrained from any course of discrimination against our large traffic
over that road in either direction. If in its New England policy,
and to preserve its control, it has caused anj- gentleman present
to anticipate a withdrawal of its traffic from the Tunnel route, and
such fears discolor the native hues of their resolution, they should
be disregarded. Even anticipating in this direction a positive with¬
drawal, it is my belief that the routes I represent can promptly
replace every ton of freight so diverted, and if done, you would
have the veritable, absolute and continuous competition yon have
desired. No such contingency need be anticipated. Is it presuma¬
ble or probable that after contesting our entrance, because of the
value of the trade, it would voluntarily abandon it to its rivals,
and refer forwarders to us for cars, rates and facilities, or that it
would cancel its contracts for the organization of the Iloosac Tun¬
nel line? If it did so, the cars of neutral connections could and
would be transferred to our line, we would replace those which
were withdrawn, traffic would go on uninterruptedly", and you would
be the gainers to that extent.
I wish to state one other view which seems in striking contrast to
the exclusive policies I have outlined and deprecated. The presi¬
dent and managers of the Erie Railway do not believe that policy
is wisest which shall undertake to exclude from this important
section of country any rival railroad interest. We arc, there-
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
13
fore, here to say at the outset, that, believing our interests lie
where the largest aggregate of tonnage is, if the secondary purposes
of this proposed line can be attained, by which the Pennsylvania
Company will come across to intersect us from its line, and the
Delaware & Hudson Company, also at or near Binghamton, using,
as has been proposed, part of the Erie Company's line, we shall
welcome it and be glad to have it done, and be glad to have our
friends east of Hudson River united with us in this business upon
the equal terms upon which we shall ask to have it done for us.
We believe in the exercise of a wise, broad and liberal policj^ We
believe that that policj^ is best for us and the State and its people
which unites and reconciles these lines ; and we hope that nothing
will be done or permitted to be done, or left undone, to prevent the
consummation of that uniform result and policy.
I have stated this in my position as director in the Boston, Hoosac
Tunnel & Western Company, and nothing should be done on the
part of the State that will prevent it from welcoming all these rail¬
roads,—the Pennsylvanîh, the Delaware & Hudson, the Erie, or any
others that propose to come and deliver, or take your business.
Now, upon one or two other points relating to our abilitj' to do
this business, I noticed, veiy much to my surprise, by the report of
the managers of the Hoosac Tunnel line, that there crossed the
Hudson River, last May, 19,000 tons of freight, and but 13,000 tons
in the month of December. In May, navigation was opened, and
much property may be supposed to have gone around it ; but in
ten months they had reduced your tonnage 30 per cent., and the
statement of the west-bound business which is going through the
Hoosac Tunnel shows that you did less business in December, from
Boston, than you did in the previous March by the Hoosac Tunnel
Freight Line, and a great deal less than was done in the same
months by the Erie Railway westward via New York, while we had
only Boston to draw from, and the Tunnel line, Boston and all the
inland points as well. Is this the great and growing freight line
which has been heralded and displayed as your commercial champion
and conserver?
Now, if anything else is needed to convince j'ou that the Erie
Railway Company can get and move New England business, it is
the fact that it is to-day taking property from Boston to Western
cities upon a line differing but a mile or two in length from that of
the Grand Trunk, which does a large share of 3'our business ; and
that after the Hoosac Tunnel had been open for seventeen months,
and the Hoosac Tunnel Freight Line had been in operation a year,
the Erie Railway business, upon a broken rail and water line,
requiring water transit by way of, and a transfer at. New York,
14 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
was much more than the whole of the Western business of the
Hoosac Tunnel Fast Freight Line.
Farther, upon the subject of the Hoosac Tunnel Fast Freight
Line, the facts, so far as these lines are concerned, are (as perhaps
the Committee ma}' understand, and will pardon me for repeating),
that they are formed by an aggregation of the railway companies,
each company contributing according to the basis of its earnings,
or upon some other reason or policy, or from some other standpoint,
cars in certain numbers and proportions to the development of
a joint business between certain points. The Erie Railway Com¬
pany has running over its road to-day such fast freight lines, which
are the oldest of all the lines, and as large as any. It has recently
consolidated four of them into one, each of which had, at the time
of amalgamation, more cars in it than there were in the whole
Hoosac Tunnel line at the same time.
Now, there are in our one line north of the Lake an aggregate car
equipment of 4,000 cars. The Great Western Dispatch, a corre¬
sponding line on the south of Lake Erie, operates an equal number,
not all its own cars, but by bargain operates the cars of other com¬
panies. Those organizations are in full tide of success ; and by the
friendship of their connections, and by their policies, for periods
ranging from four to fifteen years, they stand to-day not as experi¬
ments, not as new lines, not like the Hoosac Tunnel line,—but about
a year old, with its way to make through the Western connections,—
but with an absolutely secured business, their agents recognized
before the people as responsible, their bills of lading fulfilled, and
ready to solicit and give customary transportation contracts, and
carry on your business, and protect it to your satisfaction.
Now, if so much credit can be claimed for the Hoosac Tunnel
Freight Line, during a management of about a year, however effect¬
ive it may have been to satisfy its patrons, with so small an equip¬
ment, why may not the Erie Railway Company present to you, gen¬
tlemen, aggregated lines, with an age of from four to fifteen years,
with 8,000 cars, and state that those lines and companies, being
ready to enter into this competition and business, are prepared
to fetch and carry a great amount of traffic, which you may or may'
not have had before? At all events, if you get business which any
one else has transported before, it will give you whatever advan¬
tages there may be in honorable, fair and energetic competition.
There is one other important view of this case. There are now
running via the New York Central and Boston & Albany route,
seven fast freight lines ; viz., the Merchants' Dispatch, the Red Line,
the White Line, the Blue Line, the International Line, the Canada
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
15
Southern Line, and the Milwaukee Line ; and via the Tunnel but
one lonely line, the Hoosac Tunnel Line.
It is our purpose to reverse this disparity and discrinaination,
and give to your Tunnel the business now under two which was
formerly under seven lines ; viz., the Great Western Dispatch, the
South Shore Line, the Erie and Pacific Dispatch, the North Shore
Line, the Diamond Line, the Commercial Express, and the Erie and
Milwaukee Line.
In view of this fact, is it possible that, by such a reversal, the com¬
bination of our lines cannot give the Tunnel as much business as
its one newer line? The general manager of the Hoosac Tunnel
line was formerly in a position on the Michigan Central where he
knew and could tell you that to and from the territory the Erie
lines had access to, over that road, we did more business over it than
did the New York Central, and in both directions.
There are one or two other points upon the general subject which
I wish to refer to, which relate principally to our passenger traffic.
At the interview in Tiw about the 6th of last October, Vice-Pres¬
ident Robinson stated that the contract of the Troy & Boston road
with the Wagner Company had not then been consummated,
although terms had been pretty thoroughly discussed.
We stated, Mr. Pullman for his own company, the representatives
of the Erie Company as to the precisely similar cases it had had in
the West, and the Delaware & Hudson Company for itself, that we
did not ask that the Troy & Boston road should decline to run
any cars that the New York Central offered ; and we were not there
to make any objection to whatever sleeping, smoking, baggage, pas¬
senger or freight cars the New York Central offered to or proposed
to receive from the Troy & Boston. We desired that the Troy &
Boston should continue to receive the latter, so far as anything
that we would have said might have affected this issue pro or con ;
but we then asked that their line should not be sealed against receiv¬
ing the cars which the Delaware & Hudson Company and the Erie
Company might at that time have contracts with, or might there¬
after contract with and offer to deliver to or receive from the Troy
& Boston Company upon precisely the same terms. We understand
that since then and quite recently, a contract has been signed by the
Troy & Boston Company with the Wagner Sleeping Car Company by
which the latter is to have exclusive rights over that part of the line
between the Hoosac Tunnel and the Hudson River, notwithstand¬
ing- the representations and protests which were made at Troy as
stated.
The statements which were made at that time, as to the ability of
the joint line to secure passenger business, referred not only to the
16
THE KOOS AC TUNNEL LINE.
[Mar.
passenger traffic which might be received from or sent to the Erie
road west of Binghamton, but to that possibly equal traffic which
could be done to and through Scrauton or Wilkesbarre and the
coal regions, for the newer commerce of that people with the people
of New England. We did not, at that interview, make any sugges¬
tions inconsistent with those made to-day, that they should throw
open their line to all that desired to do business with them on like
terms.
I desire to do justice to the Fitchburg Company in this connec¬
tion, by saying that onl}' two or three weeks ago I was shown the
contract with the Wagner Company, by which the Fitchburg Com¬
pany, in the exercise of a wise policy and, as we desired, throws its
line open to all companies, with the same liberality which had been
exercised on our Western part of the line.
The exclusive demand made upon the Troy & Boston Company
was also made upon it, but failed in its influence, and the accepted
clauses of the contract were shown to me, which enabled that com-
pan}' to run other through cars into New England upon the same
terms as the New York Central, which is all that we ask over that
part of the route. We have not urged or undertaken, at any time,
anything inconsistent with that view.
Now, upon another point that I see noted in some testimony
that I hurriedlj' read over this morning,—if at any time the Erie
Company proposed to deliver anj^ flxed quantity of freight to the
Tro}' & Boston line (which I do not personally remember), the
geographical and ph}mical difficulties, which I have before explained
to have existed at that time, but which now have been mainly, and
can be entirely removed, and which we agree to remove, have
accounted for the failure. If, however, we did not at that time
deliver 200 cars, and the argument based therein is good for any¬
thing, it is, on the contrary true, that during the month of February,
1877, we delivered to the Troy & Boston road, without any connec¬
tions or arrangements, and upon its arbitrary rates, 300 cars from
or via Chicago, in competition with the New York Central and the
Boston & Albany. That we did not only in the absence of any
encouragement, but against the discouragement with which you
have been made familiar.
Now, is it more than fair to presume that if we could do that in
the absence of any participating arrangement, we could deliver a
much greater amount if we had active cooperation, and these works
of the State were thrown open to receive them? and if we did not
deliver 200 cars at one time, and did deliver 300 cars at another time,
our side of that argument is worth just one-half more than the
other.
1877.]
HOUSE—íTo. 201.
17
In addition to that special lot and traffic, we are at this moment in
successful competition at all points in the West for the traffic of
Albany, Troy, Cohoes and Schenectady ; and I may state as a fact,
that for the two 3'ears prior to 1876, and at this time, the Erie road
and its connections transported and is transporting the cotton for
the Cohoes Mills from Memphis. If we could and can do that with
our own business, why could we not extend our connections to New
England with equal success, both for our own interests and for
yours ?
I desire again to thank the Committee for their kindness in hear¬
ing me, and to disclaim any intention of doing anybody any injus¬
tice. I have, perhaps, replied by inference, rather than directly, to
some of the testimony which I have read in the abbreviated and
imperfect reports of newspapers. If those reports are not to be
relied upon, if anybody desires to ask me here any questions, or
have me make any explanations of what I have said, or in any way
elucidate any of the points that I have brieflj' adverted to, I shall
take great pleasure in doing it, or in withdrawing anything that
has been unintentionally unjust to anybody.
I have tried to be exactly fait in representing the just and proper
policy of the Fitchburg Company.
I have tried to fairly represent the difficulties we have encountered
in trying to come into New England and shake hospitable hands
with you, and I have not sought to overestimate our abilit}' to deal
with the business, and have put our competition with the New York
Central (with whom our relations are of the most friendly character)
fairly ; and I believe that I maj- here say that the general freight
agent of that company being at my office yesterday, I asked him to
be present to-day and hear what I had to say, understanding that
he was invited by other people, and I stated to him that we were
seeking this line as an inlet into New England.
It is with these purposes, and because our company is before the
courts, that I asked of your Committee the courtesy of having what
I should say to-day transcribed by a stenographer.
Q. (By Mr. Burt.) Mr. Blanchard, you speak of this delivery of
freight through to Albany and Troy as obtained by your freight
agents at the same cities and places where the New York Central
have their freight agents ?
A. Yes, sir ; exactly.
Q. That is: It is competing trade now with the Boston &
Albany, receiving their freight by the New York Central, and the,
Hoosac Tunnel line receiving theirs by the New York Central,
how do those two lines, fed from the New York Central, compare
3
18
THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE.
[Mar.
with your line and its advantages for securing freight for New Eng¬
land over the Tunnel route?
A. I don't know that I clearly understand your question.
Q. It is this : Every agent that you have, at the West to-day, in
every city, is free to act to secure New England freight over your
Hoosac Tunnel line?
A. Entirely, sir.
Q. Every one of them ? The New York Central and their agen¬
cies cannot act in this capacity, can they? Thc}^ cannot act for
both roads ?
A. I will explain and repeat. The New York Central has, at
this moment, eight fast freight lines. One of those lines, and one
only, with one set of agents, is prepared to solicit business to pass
through the Tnnnel, and the other agents solicit exclusively via the
Boston & Albany route. With the Erie, the situation is to be re¬
versed. Every agent that we have would be prepared to solicit
business via the Hoosac Tunnel line, and, at this time, none what¬
ever via the Boston & Albany ; for we have a force of agents from
all points, from St. Paul to New Orleans, engaged in the soliciting of
this business, with the ability to make freight contracts, those being
secured bj' contracts between those railway companies for the organ¬
ization of those lines, and the business put through the Hoosac
Tunnel by all these lines, and I say that you will get the business
which, two years ago, was done by six or seven lines, whereas, now,
you get but one.
Q. Wouldn't you under this arrangement,—Col. Scott and Mr.
Garrett agreeing to send the Pennsylvania freight,—also get the
benefit of all the Pennsylvania lines, and reach this northern part of
New England?
A. Speaking for the new line, it would get all that business, as
well as the business of the companies which I have represented. Per¬
haps, in amplification of what I have just stated, I may further state,
that I see it mentioned in the testimony of my friend, Mr. Washburn, ■
manager of the Hoosac Tunnel line, that they have recently deter¬
mined upon an increase of equipment, and it is his belief, here at
«11 events, that the Erie cannot get its share of the traíHc over those
lines by reason of its difference in distance. Mr. Washburn, as I
have before said, knows, or should know, our carrying ability, actu¬
ally and comparatively, from his former relation in the Michigan
Central linè to our company. Also, I wish to add, that within the
past month, the two general freight organizations which we have,—
the great Western Dispatch Consolidated and the Erie & North
Shore Dispatch Consolidated,—have held their annual meetings, at
both of which views were expressed, stating the pleasure with which
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
19
our Western connections heard that there was a probability of getting
a New England line ; and the individual members at those meetings,
comprising a very full interest, with, perhaps, one or two exceptions,
stated their readiness to cooperate to do a very large New England
business via our route, and to put their agents into our line, if de¬
sired, upon the same competing basis that agents operating by the
New York Central would be. That would be the last thing neces¬
sarily required to put this traffic upon the same basis as the others.
Q. That would put Boston as a competing point for the business
of all these cities of the West, upon the same basis that New York
is to-day with the Erie and the New York Central?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Boston would have the two independent competing lines with
all their agencies fully established ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You say that you are a director in the Boston, Hoosac Tun¬
nel & Western. Has there been at anj^ time any desire expressed
by the gentlemen of that board to obtain in any way any exclusive
control of the Tunnel?
A. Not to my knowledge. And I would not have concurred in
it if there had.
Q. Then, as to the connections across from Schenectady to the
Tunnel line, that that road should be built for the purpose of giving
the Erie and its connections an inlet with Boston,—that was the idea
that was originally started, was it? ■
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you heard of any change of plan in that matter at all ?
A. None whatever. I heard it reiterated this morning.
Q. Now, taking the connections from the coal-flelds, local freight
through New York, and freights which you can give, and judging by
your capacity of doing business, and judging by what you know has
been done and is being done to-day over the New York Central (it
has been stated that two-thirds of the freight b3' that road was for
New England connections), what should you state that it was rea¬
sonable and probable that this line could do for the Tunnel road,
and the city of Boston, in one year from the time when it was opened,
supposing freights to go as they have for the past six years?
A. I am entirely within the limits of probability in stating that
we would double the present business of the Tunnel within less time
than its present organization has reached, the present tonnage. I
mean that the aggregate of traffic over the Delaware & Hudson and
Erie railways, and their connections, would double the freight busi¬
ness the Tunnel would otherwise receive.
Q. Is there any reason why, after it is once established, this line
20 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
should not have for itself as great an increase as the New York
Central ?
A. I know of none.
Q. Should you have any reason to suppose that the New York
Central would not use the Hoosac Tunnel, or would not have its
Hoosac Tunnel line operated ?
A. On the contrary, we believe and prefer that it should, for the
reason that when we meet an organization like that, supported by a
great company like the New York Central, we are always safer in
competition with such a route. We can give shippers the advantage
of two lines. We can act in harmony with the other party and give
them the cars, or vice versa. I wish to say more specifically than I
have said, that, referring to the conference with offleers of the New
York Central at my own office, yesterday, there is at present a dis¬
position to harmonize those interests which has never been known
to me before. We have no objections, no criticisms, no policy
hostile to that of the Hoosac Tunnel Fast Freight Line except fair
business rivalry.
Q. Is there any way that this coal transportation, both anthra¬
cite and bituminous, can reach the Hoosac Tunnel and the northern
párts of Massachusetts as well as over j-our road and over the Dela¬
ware & Hudson Company's?
A. I know of no route ; but upon that subject of coal routes, I
would not want to speak without being prepared to correct my state¬
ments ; because, never having transported coal to New England, or
been connected with the transportation of coal to the East in this
direction, I could not answer definitely. A great deal of coal seeks
the Hudson River ; a great deal would follow this line. The present
idea of transportation is altogether in favor of " all-rail lines " over
water lines, and the value sent and tonnage are growing in that
regard by all routes.
Q. Taking the region reached by the Albany & Susquehanna,
and brought into connection with your road, state whether that
region is connected directly by this means with all the bituminous
and anthracite coal-fields of Pennsylvania, and whether the Erie
road has its connections directly with all those coal-fields?
A. I think that every coal-field is directly accessible to us,
except that reached by the Reading road.
Q. All that comes north can come by the lines of your road
towards New York.
A. We transport between the same coal-fields that the Delaware,
Lackawanna & Western Railroad does. We are transporting the
coals of the Lehigh Valley Coal Company, and of the Pennsylvania
Coal Company, both eastward and westward, and have upon our
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
21
road the combined shipments of more of the coal companies than is
upon any other road in the country.
Q. (By Mr. Toeret.) I understand, Mr. Blanchard, that you
are perfectly satisfied with the policy of Mr. Stearns in managing
his part of the line?
A. Entirely so, if persevered in and it remains unchanged.
Q. And you think, that, under the management of Mr. Stearns,
who manages it from North Adams to Boston, you can get all the
facilities you require from Fitchburg to North Adams?
A. We think we could if Mr. Stearns stays there, and the policy
of the road remains as it now appears.
Q. You would not deem it necessary, for the success of your
enterprise, to take the Fitchburg road out of the hands of its pres¬
ent management?
A. I should say not.
Q. (Bj' a member of the Committee.) What freight did you
charge Mr. Garner for his cotton ?
A. I could not tell you. That is matter of detail that I would
be happy to answer, if I could.
Q. (By Mr. Bükt.) You took that in competition with the
New York Central?
A. Yes, sir ; at as low rate, and made as good time, and de¬
livered it in as good condition, and took the drj' and manufactured
goods back in the same way.
Q. (By Mr. GuiNisr.) If L understand you, you have a third
rail from Bingham ton now in connection with the West, with the
exception of a distance of about 40 miles from Waveiiey, thus
requiring no transhipment of freight ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell me, in a word, how much the equivalent of your
transfer of freight to the steamers will represent in mileage of road,
in cost at New York?
A, I could not, accurate!}', without computation ; but with a
Yankee guess (to which I would not like to be held), I should say
50 to 60 miles.
Q. It costs about the same to transfer from one system of cars
to another?
A. No, sir ; about one-fifth by our routes, for the reason that at
New York we have to transfer by barges across the Hudson, while
the cars are placed alongside of each other.
Q. The charges pro rata over your line of steamers are as about
140 miles of road, as I understand it, with Boston ?
A. A little more than that.
Q. In the Windham report it was stated as 140 miles?
22 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar.
A. Yes, sir ; it was subsequently changed.
Q. Counting from Binghamton, then, you have, at present, a
connecting line ; it is 211 miles to New York, I believe ; that, and
140 would be 351 miles to New York of that distance,—your pres¬
ent connection ?
. A. Yes, sir ; to which you should add the cost of the transfer in
miles.
Q. That, at 50 miles, would be somewhere near 400 miles ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why would you prefer to leave your own freight to pass at
Binghamton, with that transfer, rather than carry it to New York
over your own line ?
A. Because we cannot get a certain class of traffic via New
York, on account of the transfer. People will not consent to the
transfer. I mean that our share of the increase of traffic could not
be secured via New York. Grain could not be transferred, and is
not transferred, and the shippers prefer that flour and other kinds
of provisions should not be transferred. It is only a few classes of
freight that will stand the transfer.
Q. The gram cannot be transferred ?
A. No, sir ; the boats have no arrangements for carrying grain
in bulk.
Q. (By Mr. Bükt.) The narrow-gauge connection that you
would have to Boston over the Erie road, and your agency, is an
exclusive one? You have no narrow-guage to New York?
A. None whatever.
Q. (By Mr. Gdinn.) From Binghamton to Williamsport, what
is the projected road there ? Is that the Erie ?
A. That is in the interest of the Pennsylvania Company.
Q. The understanding is, that they will make the connection
coming up by Owego?
A. Yes, sir ; near Waverley.
Q. And in that the Erie road stand entirely ready to receive
them ? ,
A. Yes, sir ; and give them a transportation over their tracks, if
it be only for five miles.
Q. Perhaps I was not fortunate in being here on time, but Mr.
Robinson testified the other day that he was perfectly willing at all
times to give you the same facilities that he gave the New York
Central, on the same rates, to carry freight coming from your road
on precisely the same terms ; and that, so far as he knew, the Fitch-
burg road was ready also, except with reference to the Pullman cars.
If I understand you correctly to-day, you say that all you ask is the
same thing.
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
23
.4. That is what we have asked, and that is what we cannot get.
Q. Now, I do not clearly apprehend where the difference is be¬
tween you. What is the matter ?
A. One thing is the imposition that we are advised of, of an
arbitrary rate, at a minimum price of one per cent per ton per mile
between Troy and North Adams, if I understand the points of con¬
nection correctly ; and the other is, that they throw the line open to
the Hoosac Tunnel line without the imposition of such, or any other,
arbitrary rate. They do not charge that, or any other specific price,
but pro rate with the New York Central, no matter how low the
rate goes, so they may, if competition goes as low this year as last,
be receiving less than one-half as much from the Central as they
demand from us, there is therefore that much, and may be more or
less, clear and absolute discrimination against the interests of the
Erie and Delaware & Hudson companies and their connections on
the same business.
Q. Then we are at issue here, if I understand ?
A. If any statement contrary to mine has been made, we are
decidedly and widely at issue. That is the gist of this whole dis¬
cussion, and I can readily substantiate my statements. I have
before read to you the letter of the president of the Fitchburg
road, dated the 1st of March, in which he states that he will
pursue a neutral policy. I now desire to present his other letter,—
the letter in which he states that the Troy & Boston road will not
pursue that or any other pro rata policy, but exact from us a mini¬
mum rate, not charged to others. It is as follows :—
[Copy.]
President's Office, Fitchburg Railroad )
Boston, Mass., March 6, 1877. >
G. R. Blanchard, Esa., Vice-President Erie Railroad, New York.
Dear Sir :—In reply to your letter, I have seen Mr. Robinson and he
considers our contract with Delaware & Hudson Canal Co. fully covers
the ground, and we are authorized to take freight at Binghamton from
the Erie and other roads, at rates not less than one (1) cent per ton per
mile.
I am, very truly, yours,
(Signed.) Wm. B. Stearns, PresH.
I have stated, and reaffirm, that the president of the Delaware &
Hudson Company told me he had no such understanding when he
originally provided for the contract referred to in this letter. I
have stated that when the contract left the hands of the Fitchburg
Company, the objectionable minimum was not stated in it. I have
also stated that the minimum was inserted in the contract—if I am
24
THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE.
[Mar.
correctly informed—by the Troy & Boston Company. I refer you
to the letter of Mr. Stearns, March 1st, saying he had no doubt Mr.
Robinson would put us on even terms, and you can compare the two
and see how Mr. Stearns must have been disappointed. I now state
that if the arbitrary minimum had been inserted at the suggestion of
any rivals of the Erie Company, it could not have been more success¬
ful in accomplishing a purpose hostile to us, and in inducing this dis¬
cussion to-day. One of the members of your Committee stated, a
moment since, that Mr. Robinson has said he offered us the same
rates he gave others. I refer you to the above letter for answer ;
but if President Stearns misunderstood him, I ask, not merely why
he suggested and put in so high a relative minimum., but if neutral¬
ity was his purpose, as you have stated he said, why did he permit
any one else to insert any minimum against our route, which was not
charged against all routes ? If I have done any injustice to the Troy
& Boston Company or its officers, I wish to correct it, here and now,
and withdraw any statements which I have made which would have
that effect, if Vice-President Robinson will show me my error.
Mr. Guinn. Maj^ I ask Mr. Robinson if he can correct that in a
word? I may have misstated what he said.
Mr. Robinson. I state here, before the Committee, that at an
interview I had with Mr. Blanchard in* February, 1875, I gave him
carte-blanche to bill freight over our road, at precisely the same
price that the New York Central and Hudson River roads did ; that
at two other times I had given him the same privilege ; and that
during that time, notwithstanding that I understood him to have a
large amount of freight to send us, naming the number of cars, and
introducing me to his freight agent, who said he was on the way to
Troy to make negotiations with me, but on account of my absence
in New York he was unable to see me. From that time to Septem¬
ber, 1876, not a word had been heard from the Erie Company ; not
one car of freight had been tendered this line ; and that no business
in name or nature, or a letter even requesting, had ever come to
me ; and that in September or October, Mr. Stearns and Mr.
Dickson and Mr. Blanchard and Mr. Pullman visited me ; and I
explained to the board then that the point of my real difficulty was
the car business, which I entered into very thoroughly, and at that
time stated what Mr. Blanchard has just stated,—that if we had any
one come to us and ask us to form a line at the present rates, I
should hardly have dared to do it. But Mr. Dickson says to me,
" At any time when these rates come up, are you clear that you are
ready to form a line at one cent a ton per mile?" I said, " Yes,
sir." There was not the slightest pledge on our part to open nego¬
tiations. I suppose they would do it to-day.
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
25
Now, we were placed in this position with an ohjccting company,
and one that had not for one year given us one car of freight. Be¬
ing placed in that position, 1 had to decide that it was for our inter¬
est to continue with the New York Central Companj'; I then
referred to that book where the commissioners say that it is a grave
question for that corapanj' to decide with inchoate roads. Now, I
saj- at that point, that if the Fitchburg road, hj' a Committee repre¬
senting the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, will examine this
subject with me, and will sa}- that it is for the interest of this line
to be open to ail parties taking the consequences, our line should be
laid right down for the services that these desire,—that was my
position.
Q. (By a member of the Committee.) Then you are still ready
to take freight, provided the Fitchburg Company will?
Mr. EoniNSON. Yes, sir. And if the State thinks it is for her
own interest. Here is a line that commences negotiations with us,
and has put in already 1,400 cars, and is ready to double it, and
here is another line that lies outside of it, and has never done any
business with us. When we accept that line, we shall have had a
meeting and understood it. I want the parties here to take the
responsibility. I don't want them to throw it upon me. I mean by
this, that the experience of the last year shows, that one road has
been giving us business to live on, and the other has been giving us
nothing. You have asked for a statement of my position, and it is
there.
The CiiAiUMAN. This is the whole point, that you are afraid that
if you allow the Erie freight to come over your road in competition
with the New York Central, the New York Central will turn against
you, and you feel that you have got to take your chance between the
New York Central and the Erie.
Mr. RoniNSON. Yes, sir.
Q. That the}'will withdraw?
A. Yes, sir, that they will withdraw ; and when the responsibil¬
ity is [)laced upon me I take it. I have stated at all times that
when the_ Fitchburg and the rest of the line thought it was for our
interest to take it, I was willing for our road to be put right into the
line.
Q. You say'you don't want to do it without the State or some¬
body else is behind you?
A. Not unless some one will stand this.
The CiiAinMAN. I understand that Mr. Blanchard's statement is
substantialbj proved correct, that your line did refuse to take freight
at less than a minimum of a cent a ton per mile.
Mr. EoniNSON. That had just simply this reference : Mr. Stearns
1
26 THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE. [Mar,
produced him the contract which I gave him carte-blanche to make.
I was in conversation with Mr. Dickson. I said, " Do 3'ou propose
to give onr agents the right to carry that freight at less than cost?"
He said, " Most certainly I do not." And I said that one cent a
ton per mile was as little as I wanted to take it for. He had that
inserted in it, not at the suggestion of myself, or of any one. It
was only to break the line.
Mr. BLANcnAED. The remarks of Mr. Robinson are easily an¬
swered. The occurrence of February, 1875, to which he alludes, I
now remember to be this : The manager of one of our freight lines
came and said he could get 200 cars of New England freight, if he
could make certain arrangements, and I told him he had first better
go to Troj', and be sure the Troy & Boston Company would take
it. Meeting Mr. Robinson, accidentalh', I mentioned it, and Mr.
Robinson said he knew no reason, at that time, why that lot could
not be taken. But I did not promise a carload. The manager
referred to was acting In that transaction as an agent of a Western
companj', and not ours ; and subsequently, because of the differences
of gauge, requiring two transfers, we decided that our interests
would not be advanced by taking spasmodic lots, in the absence of
all arrangements,—such as waj'-billing, proportions of rates and
expenses, quick transit, etc., which were needful to ensure the satis-
factoiy movement of the property. If Mr. Robinson proposed or
assented, at two other times, to a like policj', it is unknown to me,
and I regret that his willingness and policj', being so unmistakable
and repeated in his own mind, was not committed to paper, that he
might refer us to dates, and consistently say he is still willing to
abide by it. However that may be, it seems to me, the pertinent
question for j-ou, Mr. Chairman, and for, me to ask, is. Why, if on
his own statement he had three times assented to what is now
asked, when the phj-sical difficulties rendered such assent practi-
callj' nugatorj-, does he now decline the same or any neutral assent
when those difficulties are, or can and will be removed, and the
united companies stand here read}' to close a definite and perma¬
nent arrangement. That he claims to have thrice assented, but
does not now assent, has been clearly shown, with the assigned
reasons. The past is irrelevant; we are dealing with now and
why has be changed ? It seems to have been developed, that my
earlier surmise that the New York Central Company has laid down
the threatening alternative is already established. It would, there¬
fore, appear, that the fault in all the legislation and expenditure of
the State, relating to the Hoosac Tunnel has been, that j'ou did not
get the prior assent of the New York Central Company to utilize it
after it was completed.
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
27
You have spent your money, time, and efforts to provide an alter¬
nate outlet and inlet, and when that great result is reached, what is
it ? Why, from the gentleman's remarks, it would seem that you
have kindly spent fifteen years of time and fifteen millions of
money to generously provide an alternate outlet for the New York
Central alone, with which, if so disposed, that company can play
shuttlecock and battledore backward and forward between the Bos¬
ton & Albany and Tunnel routes, capital and interest alwaj'S to its
advantage, but how much to yours or theirs has not been shown.
Mr. Chairman : Such arguments may appeal to the fears of in¬
dividual capital and interest, but when addressed to a State, should
be met as becomes a Commonwealth which was the first to resist
a tea tax, and it should meet this in the same way, and monopoly
should be thrown over. The works of the State should be thrown
open to the world on judicious, equal terms, and freed from possi¬
bility of dictation. If, then, the threatened withdrawal takes place,
—which need not be feared,—j-ou will at least know where you
stand ; which j-ou do not know while the alternative is impending,
and you will secure the desired parallel and continuous rivalry from
and to all points.
Mr. Robinson has asked your Committee, Mr. Chairman, to free
him from that responsibility. I believe him to be sincere in that
wish, and I hope, as he apparently does, that you will unhesitatingly
assume it, and throw your gates open alike to all who are entitled to
traverse the premises. The Fitchburg Company seems to have as¬
sumed the alternative for itself, and no withdrawal or diversion has
followed, nor should follow, nor do we wish it to follow. I have
explained, and now repeat, that President Dickson did not believe
the contract applied to business from or to our road. I will dismiss
that part of my friend's answer with the suggestion that the Chair¬
man can verify that fact by a telegram to him.
Mr. Robinson says that he said to Mr. Dickson one cent per mile
was as little as he wanted to take our freight for ; but he did not
say so to Mr. Vanderbilt or any of his freight lines, and there, in
compact space and essence, lies the whole discrimination, argument
and answer.
Q. (By a member of the Committee.) Will 3'ou allow me, Mr.
Blanchard, to ask a question. If I understand correctly, this line
of the Albany & Susquehanna is a road of exceedingly diflicult
grades?
(Mr. Blanchard.) I have never been over the road but once,
but I understand the3'' have some grades.
Q. The freight has to be raised over a rise of 2,000 feet?
28
THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE.
[Mar.
A. That I cannot say. I only Know generally that they have
some pretty heavj' grades.
Q. Do you know how much in level roads 100 feet of rise is
equal to?
A. No, sir ; I am no engineer. I could not answer you.
Q. Do j-ou think that with 53 miles additional distance (if I
understand the lines correctly*, and the equivalent in distance which
those difficult grades are equal to, that you have to pass over on the
Albany & Susquehanna road),—do you think, that, with that addi¬
tional distance, you can successfully compete with the New York
Central road, which is level?
A. I think so, because upon a large portion of our business
we have a shorter line. For the oil business, it would be shorter.
I mean that, taking the average of all the traffic, we could do it
successfully.
Q. But for Chicago it is 70 miles farther.
A. No, sir. The difference of distance to Buffalo is the same as
to Chicago and all points reached via Buffalo.
Q. Is not the reason that the New York Central is able to com¬
pete with that 120 miles of additional road that 3 0U speak of solely
because their grades are more favorable than those of anv' other
lines?
A. No, sir ; we think not. The New York Central pa^-s $3 or
more for coal. There are a great many conditions to enter into
the cost and ability for the transportation of propert}'. The coal
mines being upon the line of our own road, where we buy our coal
very much cheaper than our friends to the north of us, we are able
to transport freight over longer distances at the corresponding rates.
Q. Can you give me the difference in the cost of the coal ?
A. No, sir ; except that the transportation will make a difference
in the cost that will approach 70 cents to $1 a ton.
Q. (By the Chairman.) Mr. Blanchard, I understand this :
that all your railroad wants is that the line called the Iloosac Tun¬
nel line from Troy shall be thrown open to you, without any dis¬
crimination.
A. I will not say that it is all we want. What we do want
is not admission to the Hoosac Tunnel Freight Line, for that is im¬
practicable ; but to the Iloosac Tunnel and road.
Q. That is the principal thing ; if your line can be brought into
contact with this system, and you can use it without discrimination
against J'ou, upon the same terms as the New York Central, and all
"the other roads in the United States, that is the principal thing that
you are after?
A. Yes, sir.
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
29
Q. That the only reason now why you cannot use it, is, that the
Troy & Boston Company has practically made a discrimination?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How would j'ou get from Albany up to Troy at present?
How would 3'ou make a connection with the Troy & Boston road,
provided the Troj* & Boston Company made no discrimination?
A. The Delaware & Hudson runs to Troy as well as Albany.
Q. Then, if by virtue of laws being passed by the Legislature,
or otherwise, it could be permanently fixed that 3-ou, from Troy to
Boston, should have the right of running over this line, at the same
rate and on the same terms as an3'^ other railroad company do have,
your principal desire would be met, the object would be accom¬
plished, would it not?
A. That object of the Erie Company would.
Q. And it would not be necessary to organize a corporation that
is contemplated by this bill?
A. No, sir ; not for that i*esult alone.
Q. (B3' a member of the Cojijiittee.) What other object did
you have? I understand that you do not want the monopoly of it ;
you had rather the New York Central should compete. You cannot
carry passengers from Albany to Troy now, can 3-ou, in Pullman
cars?
A. I am not familiar enough with the details of the sleeping
cars on that line, to be able to state. I suppose the Albany & Sus¬
quehanna road has left its line open to all comers in that regard.
I believe cars are running now from Carbondale, in the coal regions,
to Saratoga. I think it is the cars of the compan3', and they run
some Wagner cars, and some Pullman, I think.
Q. (By the Chairman.) Then, if this whole route through to
Troy is thrown open, b3' virtue of a law, or in some effective way,
to your railroad, on prccisel3' equal terms with an}- other railroad,
you would not say that there was need of farther legislation under
this bill or otherwise?
A, Looking only to the interests of the Erie Company, and
separating myself from this proposed line as a director, and ignor¬
ing its future relations to Lake Ontario, and whatever there may be
withal, I should say that accomplished the principal desire of the
Erie.
Q. So far as your road is connected ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is to say, 3-ou would send just as much freight if the
bill was arranged in that wa3'?
A. Yes, sir ; if they put car for car in our line, pay the corre¬
sponding part of the expense, give us equally good time for our pas-
30
THE HOOSAC TUNNEL LINE.
[Mar.
senger and all other cars, and put their road just as much at our
service, in every respect, as at the services of any other road.
Q. You mean you should be just as independent as any other
route ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do 3^ou believe that the New York Central and Erie
would freight over the same line?
A. We do all over the West, and it would not be our fault if
we did not here.
Q. What do j'ou think in regard to the East ? Suppose this line
should be given up to your freight, would the New York Central
refuse to use it?
A. I believe they would not, sir, under any circumstances what¬
ever.
Q. Now, j-ou spoke of this association called the United Lines,
west of the Hudson River ; what are these United Lines?
A. I only used that figuratively. I only mean our lines, and the
Delaware & Hudson Company's.
Q. Then it is not an association, as the term would imply?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can you tell the cost of carrying the freight per ton per
mile bj' rail?
A. No, sir ; and nobody else can accurately, no matter how
much they may pretend to do it.
Q. The amount has been given to us several times, and I wanted
to know what you thought about its correctness.
A. It differs with everything that enters into the cost of running
a railroad. The amount of salaries paid the president, oflBccrs and
employés, the cost of culverts and embankments, and the amount of
curvatures, and how much it costs to pump water, for coal, labor,
material, terminal facilities, taxation, and everything else that is
expenditure or represents it actually or comparativelj'.
Q. In your opinion it is impossible to fix the actual cost?
A. Absolutelj' impossible with precision, although close approx¬
imations ma^' be and are reached annually by all companies.
Q. You spoke of the salaries of the president, etc. Can you fix
the actual cost of running a train ; i. e., the expenses that enter into
the actual cost of running these freight trains and carrying the
freight?
A. It is almost impossible to do that ; the usual estimates in¬
clude evciy sort of expense, but varj'—as, to be exact, it would be
proper to divide the salary of a president according to the time he
devoted to each department.
1877.]
HOUSE—No. 201.
31
Q. We have it in print, given with the nicety of so many mills
per mile, and suppose whatever is in print must be correct of course ?
A. Absolute correctness is entirely out of the question.
Q. You mean to saj^ that no matter whether the line is longer or
shorter, you can deliver to the said line upon the same terms as the
New York Central or any other company?
A. We will undertake to do it.
Q. Your argument is, that it makes no difference to us in Massa¬
chusetts whether you have to carry 50 or 500 miles farther ; if your
route is longer, that is j'our lookout ?
A. That states exactly my view. Not only that, but wo are
doing it ; taking freight away from the Pennsylvania road, over a
road longer than theirs. Have done it for years, and expect to con¬
tinue it.
Q. How much Boston freight hâve you brought from the West
during the past year ?
A. I could not tell 3*00 without having a statement prepared.
Q. By what route do 3*ou send it?
A. By way of Providence, and the Metropolitan Steamship
Compan3' outside ; mainly the latter.
Q. (By Mr. Guinn.) The New York Central to Chicago has
the benefit of lesser grades, I suppose, and of a shorter distance,
has it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And 3'our price of coal, and what else?
A. That is about all, sir ; but it is very great.
Q. You hinted that there were some other things that 3'ou
wanted.
A. I stated them subsequentl3%
Q. When the Poughkeepsie line is built, can 3'ou tell me how it
will affect 3'OU ?
A. I cannot. Generallj', it is supposed to diverge to our line
above Goshen. I don't know with certainty.
Mr. Burt. The case of the petitioners, as far as the evidence is
concerned, is now closed.