xC^<<dL*4Z^t/&i, Jr 
 
DIAGRAM OF THE CHURCHES. 
 
 illustrated by a supposed interview between the 
 
 Armenian's all-wise and omnipotent god of the 
 
 universe and his armenian ministers. 
 
 !> 
 
 S. M. CARLTON, M. D, 
 
 HEFDEBSOIT, E "U SK CO., T E X .A. S 
 
 
 
 I2QJH-4 
 
 3IIDDLETOWN, N. Y.: 
 
 G, Beebe's Sons, Publishers, 
 
 1884. 
 
THE LIBRARY 
 OF CONORStS 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 
 ' ' Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 1883, by 
 
 S. M. CARLTON, M.D., 
 in the Office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington." 
 
PBEFACE 
 
 Fearless of the scrutiny of men or devils, we submit 
 the following treatise to the public, but with much fear 
 and trembling before God, not that we are unable to de- 
 fend the principles as set forth in the ''supposed inter- 
 view," but fearing that our God has never required such 
 a work at our hands. 
 
 Be this as it may, we have had an abiding impression 
 for about eight years to submit such a work to the public 
 in defence of the doctrine of the Old and New Testament 
 Scriptures, as held to by the Old School or- Primitive 
 Baptists, and in exposition of the various devices, strata- 
 gems and inventions of men, setting forth the multiplied 
 doctrines of Antichrist. We are pained to acknowledge 
 that our manuscript is imperfect ; but we have done the 
 best we could in condensing our thoughts, so as to make 
 ourself understood, without making our work so volumi- 
 nous as not to answer the purpose for which it was in- 
 tended. We have for many years felt the necessity of 
 such a work ; yea, one more able than we have been able 
 to set forth, in defence of the doctrine of Jesus Christ 
 and his Apostles, as held to by all lovers of truth, and in 
 condemnation and answer to those who have a form of 
 godliness, but deny the power thereof. " Having a form 
 
4 PREFACE. 
 
 of godliness, but denying the power thereof ; from such 
 turn away." — II Tim. iii. 5. 
 
 How far we have succeeded in meeting this demand, 
 in answering and repulsing the enemies of truth, when 
 they are proposing and propounding hard questions to 
 the humble saints of God, we leave with the humble 
 lovers of truth, asking their prayerful approbation or re- 
 jection. 
 
 Our first chapter purports to be an interview between 
 Truth and Error ; and at the time of writing said chap- 
 ter, we expected to give our work the title of "Truth 
 versus Error ;" but circumstances changed the title 
 and style of the interview to a supposed interview be- 
 tween the Arminian's God and his Arminian Ministers. 
 
 Our first chapter being diametrically in opposition to 
 the theory of the popular religious world, and by chance 
 was closely scrutinized by our much esteemed friend, 
 Eobert T. Milner, editor and proprietor of " The Hender- 
 son Times" who insisted that we should submit it to the 
 columns of his excellent paper. We rejected his gratuit- 
 ous offer until we could confer with our much esteemed 
 and talented friend, and now brother, Elder Charles 
 Holcomb, who was and now is Moderator of the Little 
 Hope Association, as to the propriety of such a course, 
 when it was agreed that we submit it for publication in 
 said secular paper, on condition that we be allowed space 
 to defend it should any religious shark presume to strike 
 at it ; whereupon it was published ; and immediately 
 followed the strictures of several will- worshipers and a 
 
PREFACE. 5 
 
 heated controversy ensued between the Eev. W. H. H. 
 Hays, who is a modern disciple of Andrew Fuller, of 
 Missionary Baptist notoriety, and the humble author of 
 this manual, all of which appears in the first part of our 
 book. After which, the title of our prospective book 
 was changed to a " Diagram of the Churches," in which 
 Diagram we have presumed to disabuse the minds of 
 many of the humble saints of God's electing grace who 
 have been unawares caught in the nets of Antichrist by 
 not understanding the doctrine and tenets of the Primi- 
 tive Baptists, and have been led away by the cunning 
 craftiness of men. "That we henceforth be no more 
 children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every 
 wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning 
 craftiness whereby they he in wait to deceive." — Eph. iv. 
 14. 
 
COMPLIMENTARY LETTER. 
 
 Henderson, Rusk Co., Texas, August 1, 1883. 
 
 We believe that Dr. S. M. Carlton is actuated by a zeal for, and 
 an ardent desire for the promulgation of the truth of the gospel 
 of Jesus Christ, in the publication of the following work. We have 
 been intimately acquainted with him for several years, and have 
 admired his magnanimous spirit in entertaining and sustaining the 
 people of God. His house has ever been the Christian's home, 
 regardless of sectarianism or creeds ; believing, as he does, that 
 many of the poor afflicted saints have been beguiled, and caught 
 in the nets of Babylon, and are living upon the husks or chaff of 
 Antichrist ; ' ' And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks 
 that the swine did eat ; and no man gave unto him. And when he 
 came to himself, he said, how many hired servants of my father's 
 have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger." — Luke 
 xv. 16, 17. Should the following treatise inspire or give Christian 
 fortitude to any of the starving children of God who are living upon 
 such meager supplies of spiritual food, to come out from the tents 
 of Babylon and enlist under the banner of Jesus Christ and his 
 Apostles, by connecting themselves with the Church of Christ, as 
 well as to inspire others of God's elect or chosen people, who have 
 made no public profession of the Christian's faith, to take up their 
 cross and follow Christ through evil as well as good report, we feel 
 that our brother will be amply compensated for the vast amount of 
 labor and time bestowed upon the work, regardless of the small 
 remuneration that he justly expects in the sale of the book. 
 
 We have carefully examined his manuscript, and pronounce it 
 
COMPLIMENTARY LETTER. I 
 
 as being novel simple and sublime. He has, in a novel ''interview,'' 
 and with simple allegories and arguments, expounded many of the 
 deep mysteries of godliness, and has wonderfully confounded the 
 devices and doctrines of men. He has reasoned from cause to effect, 
 and from effect to cause, both in expounding the great plan of 
 salvation, as well as the exposition of the doings of Antichrist ; and 
 as far as we are able to judge, he has substantiated all of his 
 arguments and illustrations by a "Thus saith the Lord." It is true 
 that in some instances his illustrations and arguments are not as 
 full as they might have been, or in some instances as they should 
 have been, to put to silence the religious skeptic, or the disguised 
 religious infidel, who has a form of godliness, but denies the power 
 thereof ; nor could he have dwelt upon all the minutiae connected 
 with such a grand commentary, without making the work too large 
 for a convenient household treasure. But the mar. of God, who is 
 an aspirant of truth, who has no other motive than to serve God 
 according to His revealed word and will, will find but few reasons 
 for rejecting any part of his commentary when properly understood. 
 We are made to rejoice in our gratitude to God that He has 
 enabled our brother in a very lucid manner to expound many of 
 the deep things of God for which we have contended for many years 
 from the sacred stand, and have in some instances been opposed by 
 able ministers of the Old School or Primitive Baptists, for want of a 
 proper understanding of us, or for want of a proper understanding 
 of the Scriptures of divine truth. 
 
 Our dear brother has beautifully harmonized the apparent 
 contradictions (to the casual reader) of the Scriptures, and has 
 thoroughly established, to our minds, God's absolute predestination 
 of all things, both good and evil, and all for His own honor and 
 glory. He has shown beyond cavil why God chose his elect people 
 in Christ before the world began, and did not choose the others ; 
 why God created evil in opposition to good ; the reason why He was 
 compelled to have a hell, in order to have a heaven ; and thajfc he 
 was obliged to have bad men, in order to have good men ; and that 
 good could not exist without its opposite, evil ; and that God controls 
 
8 COMPLIMENTARY LETTER. 
 
 all things in heaven, earth and hell, and works all things after the 
 counsel of His own will and for His own glory. He makes the 
 wrath of man to praise Him. 
 
 "We are gratified to acknowledge that our God has been pleased 
 to give our brother light and liberty with his ready pen, to unfold 
 many of the deep mysteries of God that we have never before seen 
 in the writings of man since the days of inspiration, and have but 
 few times heard the whole gospel in its fullness proclaimed from 
 the pulpit. We mean to say that these deep doctrines are usually 
 omitted by our ablest ministers, either from a want of understanding 
 of them, or fearing that they will not be profitable to their 
 congregations. 
 
 In our indorsement and recommendation of this book to the 
 household of faith and lovers of truth, it is not expected that it will 
 add one member to the body of Christ, but that it will be a source 
 of comfort to the chosen of the Father, the redeemed of the Son, 
 and the quickened of the Holy Spirit. And should there be any 
 Christians so spiritually weak that they cannot comprehend the great 
 truths therein contained, let them not therefore condemn it as being 
 false, but rather pray for our God to give them an understanding of 
 it, so that they may realize the truth of it, and feast upon that 
 spiritual food that will nourish them into spiritual manhood. 
 
 Eld. CHARLES HOLCOMB. 
 " J. K. HOLCOMB. 
 " NOAH T. FREEMAN. 
 
PAST I. 
 
 TRUTH versus ERROR. 
 
 By S. M. CARLTON, M. D., 
 
 OF HENDERSON, TEXAS. 
 
 Truth. — If God be God, who, or what power is there 
 above Him that can prostrate or thwart His will ? And 
 if He has the will to save the whole human family, He 
 surely has the power to do so, or He ceases to be God, 
 and the creature becomes more powerful than the Creator, 
 in the destruction or salvation of his own soul, and damns 
 or saves his soul by his own acts, regardless of the will 
 of the Father to save him. Therefore God is denied the 
 power to execute His will, and ceases to be Almighty, and 
 does not have all power in earth, hell and heaven ; but is 
 superceded by the handiwork of His own creation and is 
 made subservient to the will of the creature. 
 
 Error. — But, sir, the salvation of souls is upon con- 
 tingencies. God has made a law that controls the destiny 
 of all men everywhere, and has made man a free-agent ; 
 and he can accept the terms of this law and be saved, or 
 he can reject the terms of the gospel and be damned upon 
 his own volition. 
 
 Truth. — Allow me to interrupt your temporal thoughts, 
 my friend, and admonish you never to slander the char- 
 
10 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 acter of God by accusing Him of doing that which you 
 would not do yourself ; for if God foreknew all things, 
 as all orthodox Christians say and believe He does, and if 
 their belief is fully indorsed by the Scriptures, as it is, 
 beyond all cavil, then would not God have been a poor 
 law giver or jurist, to have given into the hands of poor, 
 puny man a law which His foreknowledge knew that man 
 would violate, and therefore damn the objects of His love, 
 whom He so much desired the salvation of ? Now, my 
 friend, you would not be guilty of such a violation of 
 common sense in prescribing a domestic law for the gov- 
 ernment of your natural children, which you knew they 
 would violate, the penalty of which would be corporeal 
 death. Then why accuse God of such an outrage upon 
 His legal dignity, robbing Him of the salvation of the 
 souls that He so much desires to save, and that He could 
 not save, without it happens to suit the person or persons 
 whom He desires to save, and that upon their own voli- 
 tion? 
 
 Error. — Well, then, if God does not save the people 
 upon a principle of free-agency, and upon their own voli- 
 tion, how do you reconcile the justice of God in suffering 
 any to be lost ? 
 
 Truth. — They are lost upon a principle of justice, and 
 that justice is based upon the fact that the heirs of per- 
 dition ( in a spiritual sense ) are not God's. They come 
 from the infernal regions, and they will return to Satan, 
 the author of their spiritual existence. And in like 
 manner the heirs of promise will return to Christ in heaven, 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 11 
 
 from whence they came, who is the author of their spiri- 
 tual existence. " And the ransomed of the Lord shall 
 return, [not may] and come to Zion with songs and ever- 
 lasting joy upon their heads : they shall obtain joy and 
 gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." — Isa. 
 xxxv. 10. And I take it for granted that persons, things 
 or spirits cannot return to places where they have not 
 been. And the heirs of promise were all chosen in Christ 
 before the foundation of the world, and their names were 
 all written in the Lamb's Book of lif e ; and should any of 
 this number apostatize and fail to be there at the final 
 consummation of all things, God would be disappointed 
 for want of ability to save them, and the body of Christ 
 would be incomplete, and the Son could justly prosecute 
 the Father for failure of contract, in that of not render- 
 ing to him value received for that which he had bought 
 with his blood and life, which price he had paid accord- 
 ing to contract at the appointed time. And should there 
 be others there who were not embraced in the covenant, 
 Christ would surely reject them, as his body and contract 
 would be complete without them ; and he surely would 
 not presume to claim that which was not his by covenant 
 and redemption. It is therefore reasonable to suppose, 
 from common sense, as well as from inference, admitting 
 that the Scriptures were silent upon this subject, that all 
 who were not embraced in this covenant were heirs of 
 perdition, and that their spiritual existence hailed from 
 the underworld, and must by right return from whence 
 they came. " Ye are of your father the devil, and the 
 
13 TRITH VEESrS ERROR. 
 
 lusts of your father ye will do/' oc: — John viii. ±±. 
 But from the character of Christ we could not presume 
 that he would wantonly cheat Satan out of his dues ; 
 but the character of Satan would swindle Christ out of 
 his. and would deceive the very elect if it were possible. 
 — Mark xiii. '2-2. But Christ knows them that are his, 
 and they shall come unto him. and none shall be able to 
 pluck them, vice— John x. i7. 28, 29. 
 Error. — Bur. sir. it seems that God would be unjust 
 nake a part of the human family - inned. and 
 
 ren and happinesa 
 Truth. — Be this as i: may. none dare say that God did 
 not have the power B them if He had the will. 
 
 Suppose we say that the family of perdition stood con- 
 in the mind of r ah before all worlds were. 
 and spiritual e:: was virtually in the 
 : Sfi fore God spoke irr -rence their 
 natural angs, and th I made them for the v 
 purpose : nded for them. 
 and that without them he could not have shown his wis- 
 dom. ■;. and goodn the children of mercy : 
 for the terms "good" and "h " would have been 
 rms. without meaning, if they had not had their 
 oppo si fces, '" and "hell:" and God was compelled, 
 ::y natm-e of tilings, to create inhabit- 
 ants for both conditions and plac the creation of 
 snch conditions and places would have been wholly un- 
 necessary. 
 
 Error.— Well. sir. is not one man as good by nature - 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 13 
 
 another ? And why does God choose one of His creation 
 as a vessel of mercy, and leave another without a chance 
 for heaven and happiness ? And why is the gospel com- 
 manded to be preached to all men everywhere ? 
 
 Truth. — The preaching of the gospel indiscriminately 
 to all men, is for the purpose of supplying his vessels of 
 mercy with spiritual food, and is for the further purpose 
 of confounding the brain religion of the mighty and wise 
 of Antichrist, leaving Satan and his spiritual progeny 
 without excuse, that they may not plead ignorance in the 
 day of final retribution ; thereby making their own con- 
 demnation more complete. For it is written, that God 
 caused certain parties to believe a he, that they might be 
 damned. "And for this cause God shall send them 
 strong delusion, that they should believe a he : that they 
 all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had 
 pleasure in unrighteousness." — 2 Thes. ii. 11, 12 ; also, 
 see 1 Kings xxii. Showing conclusively that God did 
 not want them in heaven, for the reason that they did 
 not belong to the heavenly family of Christ ; but God did 
 have a use for them on earth, or He would not have 
 created them. And we all agree that men are by nature 
 the same ; but it is written, ( in speaking to the heirs of 
 promise,) "Among whom also we all had our conversa- 
 tion in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, f ulfilling the 
 desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature 
 the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is 
 rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, 
 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us to- 
 
14 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 gether with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved )," &c. — Eph. ii. 
 3, 4, 5. 
 
 But it cannot be shown upon Bible authority that they 
 are the others, or any part of them. And so far as not 
 giving them a chance for heaven and happiness is con- 
 cerned, it camiot be proven upon Bible testimony that one 
 of this class has e*ver wanted to be saved, only upon their 
 own terms, and their terms have ever been in direct 
 opposition to the terms of heaven. Therefore all their 
 good works and good deeds are rejected, as they are 
 claiming heaven and happiness upon their own merited 
 goodness, instead of the merits of Christ. 
 
 But the family of heaven, when they are quickened in- 
 to spiritual life, and made to see what they are by nature, 
 and what they must be by grace before they can be saved, 
 are then ready to say in their contrition and humility, 
 "Thy will be done, God, and not mine ;" and in the 
 midst of their guilt they would be ready to say, "Amen," 
 at then own condemnation. 
 
 And so far as choice is concerned, God chooses the 
 heirs of promise because they are His, and does not choose 
 them to make them His ; and He rejects the heirs of per- 
 dition because they are not His. All are His by creation, 
 but not by adoption. 
 
 - Error. — This doctrine seems to put the people upon the 
 stool of do-nothing ; for if they are to be saved, they will 
 be saved anyhow, and therefore license the people in wick- 
 edness. 
 
 Truth.— We deny the charge, and claim that every 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 15 
 
 man is a moral agent, and that the people of Antichrist 
 was raised in the fall of Adam from their degradation in 
 hell (in a spiritual sense), to a level with the heirs of 
 promise (in a natural sense), who were in Christ spirit- 
 ually before the world was. And both families shook 
 hands, as it were, in the persons of Adam and Eve, nat- 
 urally and morally. Therefore our natural pride of char- 
 acter, and our moral obligations to God and to each other, 
 are identical. And the people of perdition should not 
 accuse God of injustice, but should render praise unto 
 Him, for having elevated them to a moral status in this 
 life with the family of Christ ; and at their death their 
 spirits will return from whence they came, and no charge 
 can be laid to God for injustice. But, on the other hand, 
 those that die in the triumphs of a living faith, their 
 spirits will take their everlasting flight, and will repose 
 in Christ, from whence they came ; and no charge is laid 
 at the hands of God by them, for causing them to come 
 down from heaven and partake of the nature of the child- 
 ren of wrath, and become like them temporally and mor- 
 ally ; but they rejoice in the hope of their spirits return- 
 ing to reunite with Christ in heaven. But to explain our 
 temporal and spiritual existence more fully, we will say 
 that all the heavenly family were in Christ spiritually 
 before man was created, and that God made man in the 
 likeness of his own image. " And God said, Let us make 
 man in our image, after our likeness," &c— Gen. i. 26. 
 
 Of course the humanity of Jesus Christ was present 
 with God, and was the temple of the Spirit of God, form- 
 
16 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 ing the unity of the Father, Son and Spirit ; and as man 
 could not have been made like a spirit, he was made after 
 the image of Jesus corporally. So we conclude that the 
 humanity of Christ was ever present with God, and that 
 it makes all the changes that Divinity is so often accused 
 of making. Man ( together with all things else that were 
 created) was pronounced good, and very good. "And 
 God saw every thing that he had made ; and, behold, it 
 was very good. " — Gen. i. 31. So there could not have been 
 any latent evil or innate principle of sin in Adam at that 
 time, or he could not have been good, and very good : 
 but there did exist in his loins the natural germs of the 
 spiritual family of Christ ; so that when Adam trans- 
 gressed the command of God, this spiritual family of 
 heaven fell down to a level with the family of Antichrist, 
 and the family of Antichrist was promoted from the 
 depths of hell to a moral status with the people of God ; 
 for which they should render God praise and homage in 
 this life, for the enjoyments of its temporal blessings. 
 Hence the Scripture, " For as in Adam all die, even so in 
 Christ shall all be made alive." — 1. Cor.xv. 22. The ran- 
 somed of the Lord were all that were in Adam ( in a 
 spiritual sense ) at the time of his transgression ; so Christ 
 died for all that fell in Adam, as Adam at that time 
 was not contaminated with the wicked principles of Satan, 
 as he was not yet denied but was made susceptible ( to- 
 gether with Eve ) to the conception and germination of the 
 children of wrath, in a spiritual sense. The devil being 
 deceitful and cunning, he confronted the woman, and she 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 17 
 
 sinned against the command of God ; and Adam loved her, 
 ( as Christ loved his bride, the church, which church the 
 woman typifies,) and died to the love of holiness, and was 
 made alive to the love of sin, by partaking of her sins, 
 that he might live with her. And in like manner Christ 
 loved his bride, the church, and took upon himself a body 
 of flesh and blood, and died naturally or corporally for 
 the justification of his chosen vessels of mercy, who fell 
 in Adam. Hence we see that the tares were sown with 
 the wheat ; and never until this sin, were Adam and Eve 
 capable of the conception and germination of the children 
 of perdition • for the spiritual germs did not exist in them, 
 as they were free from sin, or they could not have been 
 good. So was the field free from tares when the wheat 
 was sown ; but there came an enemy afterwards, and 
 sowed tares with the wheat. And as Adam and Eve re- 
 present the field, the heirs of promise were sown in them 
 first, and afterwards the serpent sowed the seed of Satan 
 in them. And as wheat and tares grow together in the 
 same field, or soil, from the same culture, so in like man- 
 ner do the heirs of promise and the heirs of perdition, 
 conceive, germinate and mature from the same natural 
 parents. See the allegories of Cain and Abel, Isaac and 
 Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. 
 
 Error. — Well, sir, if that doctrine be true, a man can 
 execute all the wickedness that his mind can conceive, 
 and if he is to be saved he will be saved anyhow, and 
 there is no use in his trying to do good. And if I believ- 
 ed as you do, I would live on the fat of the land, regard- 
 less of how I become in possession of it. 
 
18 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 Truth. — Providence has wisely put it into the minds 
 of all men to believe that there is a chance for them in- 
 dividually to be saved ; even the heirs of perdition believe 
 alike with the heirs of promise (prior to regeneration ) 
 that they will be or can be saved upon legal principles, 
 and are ever trying to court the favor of God upon 
 law principles, hoping to bring God under obligations 
 to save them. And what a wise provision in God's 
 eternal purposes, and how moralizing in its tendencies, 
 for man not to know that he is doomed to hell by the 
 eternal decrees of heaven ; for if not an heir of promise, 
 the positive injunction must be that he is an heir of per- 
 dition ; for there are but two ways and two conditions — 
 right and wrong, heaven and hell. And God's foreknowl- 
 edge comprehended all the situations before all worlds 
 were, or he ceases to be almighty and allwise, and only 
 knows things as they take place, like as you and I. We 
 cannot dishonor God by limiting His knowledge ; if we 
 do, the whole foundation of the Christian religion is a 
 failure, and infidelity predominates over Christ and his 
 cause. The Apostolic or Primitive Baptists have never 
 taught nor preached the doctrine that "If I am to be 
 saved, I will be saved anyhow." They preach a doctrine 
 that exactly accords with the teachings of the word of 
 God ; that all that ever have been, are now, or ever will 
 be saved, were saved in the eternal mind of Jehovah be- 
 fore the world began ; and that in the covenant of redemp- 
 tion between the Father and the Son, their names were 
 all written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 19 
 
 of the world ; and that it is as much impossible for one 
 name to be blotted out, or another to be added thereto, 
 as it would be for human ingenuity to blot out or dislo- 
 cate any of the astronomical bodies ; and that the whole 
 fixedness of purpose in the mind of God in the salvation 
 of His vessels of mercy is, if possible, more positive than 
 the evolutions of the luminaries of day and night ; or else 
 God is mocked in His foreknowledge and eternal purposes, 
 and religion is nothing more than a mental delusion, and 
 is based upon the fabric of a vision, and is therefore noth- 
 ing but chance and speculation. God does not work by 
 chance, but does all things by positive commands — "I 
 will, and you shall." He does not say, I will save you if 
 you will let me ; nor that you can be saved upon your 
 own volition if you will ; neither are the Old and New 
 Testaments addressed to any except the vessels of mercy 
 in a spiritual sense, but are addressed to the whole human 
 family in a moral sense ; hence the human family are 
 making a great effort to save themselves, by living up to 
 the moral teachings of the Scriptures, and are substitut- 
 ing the commandments and institutions of men for the 
 blood of Christ, and are very zealous, apparently, in ask- 
 ing God to bless their so-called Christian institutions to 
 the salvation of their children, etc., and claim that God 
 has enjoined it upon them, that their children may be 
 raised up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord ; that 
 the teaching thereof is a stepping-stone to the Christian 
 religion, and that by degrees the young mind and heart 
 is so wrought upon by the teachings of these institutions 
 
20 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 that they soon become fit subjects, spiritually, for the 
 church of Christ. what self-aggrandizement ! and how 
 God-dishonoring is such a theory of religious fanaticism 
 and disguised infidelity ! 
 
 And so far as your living on the fat of the land is con- 
 cerned, all regenerated men and women, in their convic- 
 tion and convertion, are killed to the love of sin, and can- 
 not five any longer therein. They do not want to steal, 
 murder, commit adultery, swindle, cheat, defraud, etc., 
 etc. And you have tacitly acknowledged that you would 
 do all of these evils if you were not afraid of the devil 
 and hell ; and all regenerated Christians give you credit for 
 honesty in acknowledging that you are only serving God 
 through fear, and not through love, as the Christian serves 
 Him. And the Christian knows full well that you have 
 never been killed to the love of sin, and made alive to the 
 love of righteousness, or you would not utter such epithets 
 against the Christian religion. 
 
 We would respectfully refer self-willed Christians to the 
 18th and 19th verses of the last chapter of Eevelation, and 
 ask them to read carefully and see if they are adding any- 
 thing in these latter days to the prophecies and commands 
 of God and his Christ ; and if so, what will be their re- 
 ward ? We would further ask if they are not committing 
 a great sin of presumption, in presuming upon the ignor- 
 ance of God and his Christ, as being incompetent to the 
 task of revealing and having transmitted to writing in 
 the sacred volume of truth, by inspired men of God, their 
 will concerning the human family, and especially con- 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 21 
 
 cerning the heirs of promise. Yet in open rebellion to 
 the teachings of the verses referred to, we find many de- 
 flections and innovations upon these solemn injunctions, 
 and great stress is put upon the teachings of these self- 
 willed, so-called Christian institutions, for which there 
 cannot be found in the sacred volume a " Thus saith the 
 Lord ;" and yet they are much revered by the popular 
 religious world ; asking God in all their petitions, with 
 much zeal and eloquence of speech, to honor and bless 
 their institutions to the conversion of poor, lost sinners, 
 and to the pulling down of the strongholds of Satan, and 
 rearing these self-willed institutions in their stead ; when 
 God nor his Christ have ever commanded or required any 
 such things at the hands of his chosen people. And it is 
 a direct accusation upon the character of God to suppose 
 that he would have left anything undone or that He would 
 have failed through His inspired writers to have penned 
 down any part of His will concerning the people of His 
 choice, or elect family. Hence the true people of God 
 are not engaged in such deflections and innovations upon 
 the revealed word of God, but content themselves by try- 
 ing to do that which is written ; no more, no less. 
 
 And they are much chagrined and mortified at times in 
 not being able to live as near the pattern of Christ as they 
 would wish to ; but when they have nearly desponded 
 over their sins of commission and omission, they are 
 cheered up by a recital of the experience of "Paul," when 
 he said that the things that he would not do, them he did; 
 and that the things that he would do, them he did not ; 
 
22 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 hence it was no more him that sinned but sin that dwelt 
 in him. 
 
 Many similar expressions of this able defender of God's 
 holy will cause the poor, humble follower of Christ to 
 press forward to the mark of the high calling of God and 
 His Christ, regardless of all the buff etings and derision of 
 the self-willed popular religion of the day. 
 
 We would say to our friendly opposers ( many of whom 
 we believe to be regenerated souls, but from the fact of 
 bad religious tuition are in Babylon,) that the church of 
 Christ in its purity is the " covering grip" to all the self- 
 willed charitable institutions that have ever been insti- 
 tuted by man, and is the substance of all their typical 
 shadows in the shape of human so-called Christian insti- 
 tutions. And if the regenerated soul is in possession of 
 the substance of the Christian religion, and feels the wit- 
 ness within him, speaking peace to his soul, why could he 
 cling to, or what use would he have for, the shadow ? 
 Old things are done away and all things are become new 
 with them. They then depend upon the grace of God for 
 salvation, and give up all then works of righteousness ; 
 and they know full well that the works of others, with 
 all their boasted institutions of TJieology, Charity, Mis- 
 sionary Operations, Hirelings to carry the gospel to the 
 heathen, ( who, they claim, are dying and going to hell 
 for want of the gospel,) will never save a single soul from 
 hell, nor add one to the redeemed family of God's vessels 
 of mercy. The people of God are positively commanded 
 to come out from the world, and it is enjoined upon them 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 23 
 
 to be a separate and distinct people. The Old Baptists pro- 
 pose to do this. No more, no less. They are not allowed 
 to affiliate with the institutions of the world, and the in- 
 stitution of Christ at the same time ; serving G-od and 
 Mammon at the same time ; running with the hare and 
 holding with the hounds. All they crave is to serve God 
 and not the world. They do not propose to do the insti- 
 tutions of man any violence, but they do propose to pre- 
 serve the church of Christ according to God's pattern. 
 
 Among whatever nation, kindred or tongue God has a 
 people, He is able to raise up a ministry who will pro- 
 claim the glad tidings of His rich and free grace, through 
 the mediation of Christ, to the conviction, conversion and 
 regeneration of all that chosen people whose lot may be 
 cast among the heathen, and that without money and 
 without price, and without the vain foibles of self -exalted 
 Antichrist, with all of his allurements and auxiliaries in 
 helping God to save souls that God and his Christ have 
 already saved before all worlds were. For in the fullness 
 of God's time Christ made his advent into the world and 
 paid the price of redemption, according to previous agree- 
 ment with the Father and the Son. The covenanted 
 children being the component members of Christ's body, 
 and being in Christ, and Christ being in God, therefore 
 the regenerated part of man, being in Christ, and Christ 
 being in God, and the regenerated part of man being of 
 the Spirit of God, and necessarily merges back into God, 
 through the mediation of Christ, how is it possible for any 
 part or parcel of the redeemed family of heaven ever to 
 
24 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 be lost ? or how is it possible for the ingenuity of all the 
 soul-saving machinery of men, with all their hirelings 
 and money, ever to add one soul to the number of Christ's. 
 Church, or body, without defacing the body, or church 
 of Christ ? This being done, God would in part be the 
 author of His own destruction, in that of destroying 
 Himself, or a part thereof, and would deface the church 
 of Christ, and the body of His only begotten Son, who is 
 equal with the Father, if He were to allow one of this 
 heavenly throng to be disinherited upon the theory of 
 absurd apostasy, based upon free moral agency, and 
 would violate a solemn contract with His Son. Such a 
 theory is nothing more than religious romance, and is im- 
 possible. 
 
 Error. — But, sir, do not the Old and New Testaments 
 abound with the laws of Moses and other inspired writers, 
 commanding the people everywhere, in the name of God, 
 to repent and obey the gospel, or law, and be saved, with 
 the positive injunction that if they do not, they will be 
 lost ? Now, sir, what does all this mean, if we can do 
 nothing in effecting our own everlasting salvation ? And 
 do you suppose, sir, that God would have been silly 
 enough to have given such a law and then made it impos- 
 sible for man to have kept it ? This, sir, seems to make 
 God the author of sin, and is a direct accusation upon the 
 justice of God, in that of sending souls to hell without 
 giving them any chance for heaven and happiness ; when, 
 at the same time, He made them and ushered them into 
 existence without their consent, seemingly to get a 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 25 
 
 chance to send them to hell. Now, sir, I cannot conceive 
 of a principle in the character of God that would wan- 
 tonly commit such treason against His own law and 
 justice, and I cannot, will not, believe such extravagant 
 views of God's justice. 
 
 Truth. — The word of God will answer your interroga- 
 tions. "The Lord hath made all things for himself; 
 yea, even the wicked for the day of evil," — Pro v. xvi. 4, 
 and you dare not reply against God. " Nay, but, man, 
 who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing 
 formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made 
 me thus ? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of 
 the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another 
 unto dishonor ? What if God, willing to show his wrath, 
 and to make his power known, endured with much long 
 suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ; and 
 that He might make known the riches of His glory on the 
 vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory; 
 even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but 
 also of the Gentiles ?"— Eom. ix. 20-24. 
 
 Now, sir, if you reject the testimony of God, written 
 by inspiration, under the auspices of God, how could I, 
 a poor, puny atom of his creation, expect to control lan- 
 guage that would be sufficient to cause you to believe the 
 truth? And until the wisdom and light of the Holy 
 Spirit accompanies the arguments of the people that are 
 taught of God, they would not expect to succeed in con- 
 vincing the natural mind of man in its unregenerated 
 condition. See what Paul says : " But the natural man 
 
26 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God ; for they are 
 f oolishness unto him ; neither can he know them, because 
 they are spiritually discerned." — I Cor. ii. 14. Allow 
 me to say to you, my friend, that you will never believe 
 the truth until you are made able by the teachings of the 
 Holy Spirit to discern between law and grace ; for the 
 natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit ; 
 they are foolishness to him ; he is not a subject of the law 
 of grace, neither indeed can he be, until he is spiritually 
 taught. 
 
 When the Christian is made alive to the law of grace, 
 he is elevated above the law of reason, and is made alive 
 to the law of divinity ; hence there is a perfect turning 
 about in his manner of reasoning. He now reasons upon 
 natural things, from natural laws, and from natural 
 attributes ; and he reasons upon divine things from 
 divine laws, and divine attributes ; the difference be- 
 tween which he was never able to see until he was made 
 alive to the love of Christ as his Savior. This we know 
 is f oolishness to the unconverted ; but the word of God 
 and our own experience teach the same great truth. 
 And we here assert (knowing that the Bible will bear us 
 out in the position) that you had as well undertake to 
 mix oil and water, as to mix law and grace. Law is of 
 natural origin ; grace is of divine origin. Law is the 
 perfection of human reason and human wisdom ; grace 
 is the perfection of divine reason and divine wisdom. 
 The votaries of the law will be saved in this world, as 
 nations, communities and individuals, The votaries of 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 27 
 
 grace will be saved indiscriminately, among all nations, 
 kindreds and tongues, in the world to come. And the 
 votaries of law, who are not the subjects of grace, will 
 be lost indiscriminately in the world to come. 
 
 Necessarily the whole human family are the subjects 
 of law, while the ransomed of the Lord are only the sub- 
 jects of grace. 
 
 If the whole human family could be made votaries of 
 the law, and not violators of the law, then the law would 
 be the perfection of human morals, human society, 
 human intercoiirse, etc., but would not save a soul from 
 hell. 
 
 Grace is not only the perfection of divine reason, but 
 its votaries are the perfection of God's foreknowledge, 
 the perfection of God's eternal purposes, the perfection 
 of the Christian religion, the perfection of Christ and his 
 church, and will be executed, and cannot be blended 
 with law in the final salvation of souls ; therefore the 
 votaries of Christ are above the law, and are not subjects 
 of the law in a spiritual sense, but are subjects of grace ; 
 therefore the regenerated part of the human family are 
 subject to the laws that be, but are above the law, being 
 a law unto themselves ; for they are taught of God. 
 " For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to 
 do of His good pleasure." — Phil. ii. 13. Then they have 
 no desire to violate the laws that be, nor the laws of 
 grace. 
 
 Law, in olden times, as at present, was for the govern- 
 ment of the nations, and the subjugation and control of 
 
30 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 misery ; the other to eternal happiness. One of the ways 
 emanates from the spirit of Antichrist ; the other ema- 
 nates from the Spirit and eternal purposes of God. Much 
 of the law in olden times was of divine origin, and was 
 given by divine command, and of necessity must apply 
 to saints as well as sinners ; for God is not a respecter of 
 persons in a national and law sense, and all must be sub- 
 ject to the same law. ' ' Because the law worketh wrath ; 
 for where no law is, there is no transgression." — Eom. iv. 
 15. "And if a house be divided against itself, that 
 house cannot stand." — Mark hi. 25. So there must be 
 unison or harmony in this law. And the law that was 
 given by inspiration or command of God, is just as holy 
 as God is holy. And as there is no perfection in human 
 nature, who can keep a law that is perfection ? " Yea, 
 let God be true, but every man a liar." — Eom. hi. 4. So, 
 if our eternal salvation depended upon the keeping of 
 this just and holy law, all men would be eternally lost. 
 "There is none good but one, that is God." — Mat. xix. 
 17. " For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness 
 to every one that believeth." — Eom. x. 4. So Christ has 
 paid the penalty of this law for all that fell under this 
 law, and has raised them above this law, and has placed 
 them where they originally stood in Christ spiritually 
 before the law was given to them. Hence they are above 
 the law in a spiritual sense, but are subjects, together 
 with the spiritual progeny of Satan, to the laws of the 
 nation or community of which they are citizens ; which 
 law, as it now stands, purports to have been based upon 
 the letter of this holy law. 
 
TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 31 
 
 Some will be violators and some votaries of this law 
 among all nations, and some will be votaries of grace 
 among all nations, from the fact of this knowledge hav- 
 ing been and will be communicated to them through the 
 medium of the Holy Spirit. But all are required or ex- 
 pected to keep the law that governs the nation or country 
 of which they are citizens, from the fact that it is taught 
 by the letter and spirit of literature, and not by the Spirit 
 of God. And the violators of this law must suffer its 
 penalties, on the theory that all men are familiar with 
 the laws of their own country. " Then Peter opened his 
 mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no re- 
 specter of persons." — Acts x. 34. Hence God has elected 
 His vessels of mercy from among all nations, and does 
 not respect the nation to which they belong, and inspires 
 them at His own appointed time with the knowledge of 
 His love. "The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, 
 saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love ; 
 therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee." — 
 Jer. xxxi. 3. 
 
 The spiritual progeny of Satan did not fall under this 
 law in the transgression of our primitive parents, from 
 the fact that they had not been up anywhere to fall, but 
 were raised from their degradation with their spiritual 
 father, Satan, to the moral teachings of the law ; and 
 like their fountain, they cannot rise above their level ; 
 they must stay with their spiritual father, Satan. " Ye 
 are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father 
 ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and 
 
32 TRUTH VERSUS ERROR. 
 
 abode not in the truth ; because there is no truth in him. 
 When he speaketh a he, he speaketh of his own ; for he 
 is a liar, and the father of it." — John viii. 44. 
 
 Our ancient brethren, who lived in the prophetic and 
 law dispensation, looked forward to the coming of the 
 Messiah as their Savior, and were governed by this holy 
 law ; while the modern Christian, who lives under the 
 Christian era, or new dispensation, is content to live in 
 accordance with the pattern of Christ ; Jesus Christ hav- 
 ing come into the world, not to destroy or do away with 
 the law, but to fulfill the law ; hence Christ is the end of 
 the law, having fulfilled the law, (Rom. x. 4,) and is now 
 to the modern Christian the law ; and all true Christians 
 are now governed by the examples and commands of 
 Christ, instead of the examples and commands of the 
 law ; Christ being the very essence and substance of this 
 ancient and divine law ; hence this law has no bearing 
 upon the modern Christian, but he is wholly dependent 
 upon Christ for eternal salvation. 
 
PART H. 
 
 A CONTROVERSY 
 
 Between the Kev. W. H. H. Hays (who is one of the 
 leading disciples of the modern Missionary Baptists, 
 growing out of the publication of the foregoing part, 
 as published in The Henderson Times, a secular 
 paper of the Gity of Henderson, Texas, who writes 
 above the signature of "Red." Also, an answer 
 to the fictitious name of "Caledonia," whose strict- 
 ure I append,) and the author. 
 
 Ed. Times : — I have just read in your excellent paper 
 of the 8th and 15th inst., Dr. S. M. Carlton's theory of 
 the plan of salvation. I took up my pen once to dissect 
 the untimely, deformed subject of Daniel Parkerism, 
 and to show its deformity to public gaze, which is easily 
 done ; but remembering that Dr. Carlton is not a mem- 
 ber of any church, hence not responsible to any denom- 
 ination for his doctrine, I concluded that the game was 
 too small to waste ammunition with. I hope the Doctor 
 is not as ignorant of Materia Medica as he is of the plan 
 of salvation ; if so, I pity all who may fall into his hands. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 Minden, Sept. 19th, 1881. EED. 
 
34 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 S. M. Carlton, M. D. -.—Since Providence has put it 
 into the minds of some to "believe" what is false, are 
 you sure, beyond a doubt, that you are not niistaken in 
 being an ' ' heir of promise ? " CALEDONIA. 
 
 Caledonia, Sept. 19th, 1881. 
 
 Answer to "Red" and "Caledonia." 
 
 Ed. Times : — We think that prudence was the better 
 part of valor in our friend "Red " when he declined "to 
 dissect the untimely, deformed subject of Daniel Parker- 
 ism ; " "but remembering that Dr. Carlton is not a mem- 
 of any church," etc., "I concluded that the game was too 
 small to waste ammunition with." 
 
 So far as my not being a member of any church is con- 
 cerned, that need not make any difference with Mr. ' 'Red. " 
 The Old School or Primitive Baptists, as a mass, will in- 
 dorse me ; but the probabilities are that they would be 
 too small game for Mr. Ked's ammunition ; but the Bible 
 and its plain teachings are not too small game for him to 
 waste ammunition at ; for we have heard him in thunder 
 tones from the sacred desk, shooting at the plain teach- 
 ings of the Bible, over the dead body of Daniel Parker, 
 fearing that the truth might affect his salary a little ; for 
 we could not regard him as ignorant, but as using policy 
 for spoils. If Mr. "Red" had been as careful as we have 
 been in "not being a member of any church," in regard 
 to hypocrisy he perhaps would not occupy the place that 
 he does to-day. 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 35 
 
 We with shame acknowledge our nothingness, but feel 
 that the game is equal to his ammunition, and award to 
 him full liberty : and when he shall hare annihilated the 
 doctrine contained in my article, he will have wiped out 
 the old and new Testament Scriptures, and will have to 
 subterfuge under the traditions of his fathers, Antichrist, 
 or some of the new translations that some of his egotistic 
 brethen are so zealously perverting, to have things their 
 own way. Mr. " Red" misrepresents us when he says, 
 "Dr. S. M. Carlton's theory of the plan of salvation. " 
 We deny having any theory of the plan of salvation of 
 our own. as accused by Mr. "Red"; but the G-od of 
 Heaven has a plan of salvation that we heartily indorse 
 and advocate without the fear of successful contradiction. 
 Perhaps our article is about to injure the business of our 
 friend ; ' Red, " by convincing the people that their eternal 
 salvation or destruction is in the hands of the Lord, and 
 not in the hands of "Rev." dogmatic venders of the 
 religion of "Mystery, Babylon." And should any of the 
 people of G-od discover then mistake, and abandon their 
 idolatry and come to the church of Christ, it might crip- 
 ple his salary ; hence he makes a stab at my professional 
 attainments, and pities those that fall into my hands. 
 We suppose he does this by way of retaliation ; for surely 
 our " Rev'd" friends could not be so ignorant of the spirit- 
 ual meaning of the Bible as to pervert its meaning inno- 
 cently. So we can but presume that his commission is 
 soul-saving for money. 
 
 In answer to our friend " Caledonia" we do not know 
 
36 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 whether we are an heir of perdition or an heir of promise; 
 but one thing we do know, that it is none of his business. 
 
 Respectfully, 
 Sept. 29, 1881. S. M. CARLTON. 
 
 Dr. Carlton Answered. 
 
 Ed. Times: — "So far as my not being a member of any 
 church is concerned, that need not make any difference 
 with Mr. Red. The Old School or Primitive Baptists, as a 
 mass, will indorse me, " etc. I think I have more fellowship 
 for the Baptists that Dr. Carlton speaks of, than he has, 
 and I believe that I know as much or more about their 
 articles of faith ; and I say, without the fear of contradict- 
 ion, that they as a denomination will not indorse Dr. 
 Carlton as a theologian. 
 
 I have no war to make on the anti- Missionary Baptists, 
 for when they split off from the Missionaries their articles 
 of faith were the same. They split on Christian work ; 
 not as to how men were saved, but as to what they were 
 commanded to do after they were saved. 
 
 As to the theory advocated by friend Dr. Carlton, ( and 
 I do not wish to be considered in any other light,) there 
 is not one organized body under the sun that holds to any 
 such doctrine. There may be a faction, and probably is 
 in existence, which was led off by Daniel Parker. He 
 gave his theory in what he was pleased to call " Three 
 Doses," but even Daniel Parker's " three doses" had a 
 little better face than the dose presented by Dr. Carlton. 
 
 I hope all who have his article in their house will re- 
 read it and compare it with the Bible. You will see that 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 37 
 
 it is dishonoring to God. It does not lay man in the dust 
 of humility before God, where he belongs ; but it makes 
 him a bigot. It does not harmonize with the Bible as to 
 the plan of salvation. It makes a part of the human 
 family the sons of God, and He must take them by 
 families, infants and all; and on the other hand, it destroys 
 by families, infants and all. The love of God is not dis- 
 played in any part of it, and I must say, with all respect 
 to the feelings of Dr. Carlton, as a friend, that it is in 
 fidelity in the extreme, and that I, with a great many of 
 the good citizens of this section, were very much aston- 
 ished when we saw the article appear in our excellent 
 county paper ; and with your consent, Mr. Editor, I will 
 take up the arguments, and answer, one by one, as soon 
 as time will permit, as I am very busy just now. 
 
 I suppose the Doctor misunderstood me when I referred 
 to his profession. I did not do this to call in question his 
 ability as a physician. I did not say that he was ignor- 
 ant of Materia Medica. 
 
 Not being versed in that branch of science, I cannot say; 
 but having made the bible my study for a number of 
 years, I must say that his theory is as far from the truth 
 as that of Robt. Ingersoll, which I will show, if I take up 
 his arguments to answer. 
 
 As to what the Doctor says in regard to my hypocrisy 
 in advocating certain theories for money, that is in per- 
 fect keeping with the spirit which his theory produces in 
 the heart. — " Nobody right but me and mine." 
 
 Oct. 13, 1881. Respectfully, RED. 
 
38 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 Ed. Times: — As our answer to Mr. " Red " will not ap- 
 pear in this week's issue of the Times, for want of space, 
 will your generosity allow me space to relate an anecdote 
 that very aptly illustrates Mr. Red's assumption in claim- 
 ing the name of " Primitive Baptist." 
 
 In the absence of a woodchuck, a polecat crept into 
 the house of the woodchuck and took possession. When 
 the woodchuck returned, and found his house occupied, 
 and demanded possession, the skunk bitterly refused to 
 come out, and claimed that the house was actually his, 
 and that he himself was a woodchuck. The woodchuck 
 looked at him, talked with him, and smelt of him, and 
 again ordered him out and off ; for he did not look like a 
 woodchuck, talk like a woodchuck, nor did he smell like 
 a woodchuck, and he knew that he was not a woodchuck. 
 In like manner our friend " Red " may have crept in and 
 stolen the old Baptist's articles of faith, but that does not 
 make him an Old Baptist ; for he does not look like an 
 Old Baptist, he does not preach like an Old Baptist, nor 
 does he smell like an Old Baptist, and is not an Old Bap- 
 tist. Respectfully, 
 
 Oct. 20th, 1881. S. M. CARLTON. 
 
 Carlton vs. "Red." 
 Ed. Times : — We wish it distinctly understood that, 
 personally, we are a friend to Mr. "Red," but a bitter 
 enemy to his religious dogmas ; and when we take off 
 our gloves to handle his assertions and perversions, we 
 mean to do him no personal harm. 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 39 
 
 The devil himself was not more presumptuous when he 
 confronted our mother Eve in the Garden of Eden, and 
 gave God the he, than is our friend "Bed," when he 
 attempts to claim the name "Old School or Primitive 
 Baptist ;" neither was the devil further from the truth 
 than is our friend "Red," and his assertions and pre- 
 sumptions will ever stand as assertions and presumptions 
 without proof ; for every honest historian knows the 
 falsity of his pretense, and he is now begging the ques- 
 tion, and desiring to be called by her name, to immortal- 
 ize his shame, and is climbing up some other way, as a 
 thief and a robber. (John x. 1.) And as Mr. "Red's" 
 ancient cohorts sought not Christ because of his miracles, 
 but because of the loaves and fishes (John vi. 26), in like 
 manner Mr. "Red " and his Arminian cohorts left the Old 
 Baptists and walked no more with them (John vi. 66). 
 And why did they leave them 1 Because they were not 
 of them. The Old Baptists are to-day what they were in 
 the days of Christ and his apostles— sticklers for the 
 doctrine of the Bible, without any new patents or new 
 inventions ; and because they will not go with the multi- 
 tude after filthy lucre and new inventions, the so-called 
 missionaries, but indeed hirelings and gospel merchants, 
 making merchandise of the gospel (John ii. 16 ; 2d Peter 
 ii. 3 ; John x. 12, 13), and left the old landmarks and 
 went after new gods, in the guise of missionaries, 
 when indeed they are not missionaries, but hirelings, 
 putting themselves up at the highest bidder, and are 
 indeed proposing to sell salvation to poor lost sinners 
 
40 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 — selling Jesus and him crucified to poor sin-sick 
 souls; for indeed they claim that many are dying and 
 going to hell for want of this treasured boon, and that 
 nothing but money and means will serve to assist God in 
 accomplishing His great and wonderful achievements. 
 But Jesus Christ and his apostles did not so teach. They 
 preached Jesus to the people without money and without 
 price, and took God's word for surety that they should 
 and would be sustained ; and where they were not re- 
 ceived they were commanded to shake off the dust of 
 their feet as a testimony against that people. — Mark vi. 
 11. But our so-called Missionaries are not willing to take 
 God for surety, but must have further surety ; not will- 
 ing to risk God, therefore pledges, confederations, articles 
 of agreement, promising to pay the "Rev. D. D., L.L.D." 
 a stipulated salary for so many discourses or sermons ; 
 making merchandise of the gospel. And instead of 
 "woe is me if I preach not the gospel" (1st Cor. ix. 16), 
 it is, "Woe unto me if I get not the money in the guise 
 of ' Christian work ;' " as though God was not able to 
 take care of His chosen people, and lead them in paths 
 that they have not known, and make rough places 
 smooth, and crooked things straight, and darkness light 
 before them (Isa. xlii. 16), at his own appointed time, 
 and in his own appointed way, as he led the children of 
 Israel out of Egyptian bondage. 
 
 But in the face of all this perversion of the old land- 
 marks for Mr. " Bed " to have the presumption to claim to 
 be an Old School or Primitive Baptist, 0, my God ! Such 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 41 
 
 mockery ! When, indeed, the Old School or Primitive 
 Baptists, whom Mr. "Bed" is pleased to call anti-mis- 
 sionaries, are the only true apostolic missionaries that 
 ever have been since the days of Christ and his apostles ; 
 and every intelligent historian that will honestly lay 
 aside his creed can trace them back to their apostolic 
 origin. 
 
 In order to prove more positively the identity of the 
 Old Baptists with the apostles, we would ask Mr. " Bed," 
 or any of his cohorts, to point out any command, ordin- 
 ance or duty as laid down in the New Testament, that 
 the Old Baptists do not observe as Christians, (we mean 
 the people that he is pleased to call anti-missionaries), 
 and my word for it, they will take it as a great favor, 
 and will adopt it at once. He will then please point out 
 something that they do in a church capacity that is not 
 laid down in the New Testament ; and my word for it, 
 they will abandon the practice. Will my friend " Bed " 
 and his Arminian cohorts be equally honest in adopting 
 things that are written in the New Testament, that they 
 do not practice, and to abandon things that are not writ- 
 ten in the Scriptures, that they have adopted into their 
 so-called Primitive Baptist church, as stepping-stones 
 and nurseries to their so-called church ? Then we will 
 soon find who has a bona fide title to the name "Primi- 
 tive Baptist." We much fear that our friend "Bed" 
 will again dodge the question, and substitute a few more 
 assertions without proof. Our friend will find that mak- 
 ing assertions is an easy task ; but proving his assertions 
 
42 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 and perversions to be truth, by a " Thus saith the Lord," 
 will be very difficult. And we will receive no other tes- 
 timony, and will award to him the remainder of his 
 natural life to accomplish the task he proposes, and he 
 will then be wanting in a " Thus saith the Lord." 
 
 In regard to the infant's salvation, Mr. "Red" grossly 
 misrepresents us ; for the Old School Baptists (not his 
 New School that he represents) are the only people on 
 earth, that we have any knowledge of, who preach a 
 positive infant salvation ; for if infants are the little sin- 
 less creatures that Mr. "Red" and his cohorts would 
 have you believe, and that they are saved on account of 
 then purity, then it stands as a certainty that all infants 
 are lost ; for Christ came only to save sinners. And if 
 they are saved upon conditions, based upon the volition 
 or act of the creature, we know that all infants are lost, 
 they not being competent to act faith or do any good 
 deed. We claim that the infant is saved upon the same 
 principle of mercy as is the adult. " Therefore hath he 
 mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hard- 
 eneth." — Eom. ix. 18. Audit is none of Mr. "Red's" 
 business whom God bestows mercy upon, or whom he 
 hardens ; neither will his vanity change God's favors or 
 frowns upon the subjects of his choice. How glad we 
 are that we are a sinner, and that our two little infants, 
 who died in infancy, were sinners ; for if they were not 
 sinners, they have no part in the blood of Christ ; for he 
 came only to save sinners. 
 
 Another palpable misrepresentation is that our article 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 43 
 
 " is dishonoring to God, and is infidelity," when every 
 candid reader knows that our article gives God all the 
 praise, honor, glory, power, knowledge, wisdom, and 
 makes Him omniscient and omnipresent, "who worketh 
 all things after the counsel of his own will " (Eph. i. 2), 
 and strips man of everything, excluding all boastings, 
 and puts him in the dust of humility, at the feet of Jesus, 
 pleading for mercy, peradventure God humbles him by 
 sending the spirit of His love into his heart, quickening 
 him into spiritual life, without which spiritual life man 
 remains the same babbler and bigot that Mr. "Red" 
 accuses us of being ; but, in fact, if belongs to him and 
 his creed ; doing many wonderful good works, for which 
 the Master once told a host of his brethren to depart, for 
 he never knew them. 
 
 The little "faction" that Mr. "Red" is pleased to say 
 was led off by Daniel Parker in the spirit, is another 
 misrepresentation ; but Daniel Parker and a few others 
 were the genuine followers of the precepts and examples 
 of the meek and lowly Jesus and his early disciples, as 
 we are amply able to prove by a " Thus saith the Lord." 
 And they being a little flock, was the most powerful de- 
 monstrative characteristic of their being the true people 
 of God, as typified in their not going off with the multi- 
 tude, as did the so-called missionaries ; but they stayed 
 with Jesus and his apostles, as typified by the little band 
 that stayed with Jesus, and said, when Jesus asked the 
 question, "Will ye also go away ?" Then Simon Peter 
 answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou 
 
44 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 hast the words of eternal life." — John vi. 67, 68. God's 
 chosen or elect people have ever been represented in 
 small numbers, and in remnants, and haye been wrought 
 upon with many trials ; and so are the Old Baptists to- 
 day ; and when they see large numbers, and a great re- 
 ligious tumult, they know from the New Testament 
 Scriptures that the Spirit of Christ is not there. "For 
 God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in 
 all churches of the saints." — 1st Cor. xiv. 33. Another 
 powerful characteristic that the Old Baptists are the true 
 church of Christ and his early disciples, is that they were 
 few in numbers compared with the multitude, and won- 
 derfully hated, crucified, beheaded, cast into prison, etc. 
 And that the Old Baptists are hated and hunted down 
 with more sarcasm and derision than all the other 
 denominations, no intelligent person would dare deny; 
 and, no doubt, they would be equally punished with the 
 disciples of old, but (thanks be to the giver of all things) 
 the strong arm of the law protects them. 
 
 Why is it that the Old Baptists are sneered and hissed 
 at ? Because they will not brother and sister and nego- 
 tiate and amalgamate with the daughters of the old har- 
 lot of Eome (false churches), and bid them God speed, 
 by partaking of their evil deeds. 
 
 So it was with Jesus and his early disciples. And be- 
 cause they would not amalgamate with the daughters of 
 the old harlot (false churches), they were hissed at, per- 
 secuted, crucified, cast into prison, etc. "And rejoiced 
 that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 45 
 
 That there are hundreds and thousands of regenerated 
 men and women caught in the nets of these lewd 
 women, no intelligent Old Baptist will deny ; and for 
 such, all intelligent Old Baptists have full and undivided 
 Christian fellowship. And why ? Because they are ever 
 ready to give a reason of their hope, based upon an ac- 
 ceptable Christian experience. But they cannot eat and 
 drink with them in a church capacity. And why ? Be- 
 cause they are living in disorder, with one of the daught- 
 ers of Antichrist (false churches). 
 
 We will now advertise our friend "Red" that should 
 he attempt to prove up a bona fide title to the name, 
 " Primitive Baptist," we will not receive any testimony 
 that has been published since the so-called missionaries 
 left the Old Baptists, from the fact that any people who 
 will teach a false doctrine, will publish a false history. 
 We will further notify him that we have another article 
 in embiyo, on Bible two-seed doctrine, (not Daniel Park- 
 er) that will furnish him with constant employment the 
 balance of his natural life, as he has undertaken the task 
 of refuting the great fundamental truths of the Bible. 
 We also propose to furnish our readers a diagram of the 
 Antichristian churches, and compare it with the dia- 
 gram of the true church of Christ, both of which will be 
 measured by the measuring rod of God's own choosing, 
 and expose Mr. Red's fallacy "to public gaze," as he pro- 
 poses to expose our article. Eespectfully, 
 
 S. M. CARLTON. 
 
 Oct. 27, 1881. 
 
46 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 Keply to Dr. S. M. Carlton. 
 
 Ed. Tbies : — I come before the readers of your excel- 
 lent paper to redeem a promise I made some time since, 
 to answer some of the leading points of Dr. S. M. Carl- 
 ton's theory of the plan of salvation, as published in your 
 issues of September 8th and loth. Since that time the 
 Doctor has written three very abusive articles, not only 
 against me, but against all who would call in question 
 the truth of his theory, for which I hope the Lord will 
 forgive him. 
 
 I would much rather that an abler pen than mine had 
 taken this subject in hand. But whether I be a Primi- 
 tive Baptist or not, I feel it to be my duty, "as much as 
 in me is," to defend Primitive Christianity. Therefore I 
 present this article in the fear of Cod, praying for the 
 guidance of the Holy Spirit, that the fair name of God 
 may be honored. 
 
 It will be hard to put the Doctor's article in a position 
 to answer in a logical manner, from the fact that near 
 the middle of his first article is really the starting point, 
 and he presents the whole thing under the form of ques- 
 tions and answers — questions which no intelligent Bible 
 student would ask. He first speaks of the power of God, 
 His foreknowledge, etc., which, of course, we do not 
 deny. But he thinks it would be very unjust in God to 
 make a law that He knew, according to His foreknowl- 
 edge, man would violate. 
 
 Now, God saves men upon principles of justice, which 
 we will find from an investigation of His word. We 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 47 
 
 learn from this that when the work of creation was 
 finished, it was pronounced "good, and very good." In 
 this work was included the formation of man, as to his 
 body, out of "the dust of the ground," while "God 
 breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man be- 
 came a living soul." — Gen.ii. 7. This language suggests 
 the superiority of man to the various orders of animals ; 
 but it is more clearly set forth in these words : "And 
 God said, Let us make man in our image, and after our 
 likeness ; and let them have dominion over the fish of 
 the sea, and over the fowls of the air, and over the cattle, 
 and over all the earth, and every creeping thing that 
 creepeth upon the earth." — Gen. i. 26. Man was to be 
 the lord of the lower creation. 
 
 We will now investigate the meaning of the words, 
 "And God said, Let us make man in our own image, 
 after our likeness." Dr. Carlton says, "Of course the 
 humanity of Jesus Christ was present with God, and 
 was the temple of the Spirit of God, forming the unity 
 of the Father, Son and Spirit ; and as man could not 
 have been made like a spirit, he was made after the 
 image of Jesus, corporally. " I have no doubt but what 
 the Doctor would argue that there is a difference between 
 the likeness of God and the image of God. But I contend 
 that the image of God is his likeness, and his likeness is 
 his image. Therefore I conclude that man was made a 
 rational being : in this he differed from all inferior ani- 
 mals. The difference between them and man is as wide 
 as the poles, for man is rational ; he is endowed with 
 
48 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 mental faculties. Although these did not escape in the 
 fall, yet man is still rational. The Apostle James says. 
 •'Made after the s im ilitude of God. /V — James hi. 9. 
 
 It is quite manifest that of all the numerous orders of 
 earthly creatines, man alone was made in his rational 
 nature after the image of God. I would further say that 
 he was made after the moral image of God : that is, he 
 was created a holy being ; and this was the chief glory 
 with which he was crowned. "God made man up- 
 right." — Ec. vii. 29. Man's original state was a state of 
 innocence, integrity, uprightness, and polity. The ap- 
 proving smile of God was upon him. "And the Lord God 
 took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden, to 
 dress it and to keep it ; and the Lord God commanded 
 the man. Baying, Of every tree of the Garden thou mayest 
 freely eat ; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and 
 evil thou shalt not eat of it ; for in the day that thou eat- 
 est thereof thou shalt sorely die." — Gen. ii. 15. 17. This 
 is the law of God given to the one man Adam, who stood 
 as the first man, the head and representative of the whole 
 human family. 2sow this law would have been imto life 
 had he kept it. and threatened death upon the breach 
 thereof. Yet he did not long abide in this honor. Satan, 
 using the subtlety of the serpent to seduce Eve, then 
 by her seducing Adam, who without any compulsion did 
 willfully transgress the law, which was the command 
 given them, in eating the forbidden fruit, by this act 
 they fell from their original righteousness and commun- 
 ion with God, and all their posterity with them. There 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 49 
 
 is not now, never has been, or ever will be, any of the 
 human family but what was represented in this fall. 
 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of 
 God." — Eom. hi. 23. "Wherefore as by one man sin 
 entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death 
 passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." — Eom. v. 
 12. All becoming dead in sin and wholly defiled in all 
 the faculties and parts of soul and body. "Unto the 
 pure all things are pure ; but unto them that are defiled 
 and unbelieving, is nothing pure ; but ever their minds 
 and consciences are defiled. " — Titus i. 15. ' 'And God saw 
 that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and 
 that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was 
 only evil continually." — Gen. vi. 5. "As it is written, 
 There is none righteous, no, not one ; there is none that 
 understandeth ; there is none that seeketh after God ; 
 they are all gone out of the way ; they are together be- 
 come unprofitable. There is none that doeth good, no, 
 not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre. With their 
 tongues they have used deceit. The poison of asps is 
 under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bit- 
 terness ; their feet are swift to shed blood ; destruction 
 and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace have 
 they not known. There is no fear of God before their 
 eyes." — Eom. iii. 10, 19. 
 
 We have now briefly gone through the creation of man, 
 his standing in the Garden of Eden as the representative 
 of all the human family, his capacity to keep the law as 
 God had given it, his transgression and fall, and the 
 present condition of all mankind. 
 
50 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 We will now refer our readers to Dr. Carlton's theory. 
 We will bring the leading points of it to the front ; for 
 the whole article hinges on one leading point. The Doc- 
 tor says, " Suppose we say that the family of perdition 
 stood condemned in the mind of Jehovah before all the 
 worlds were, and that their spiritual existence was vir^ 
 tually in the loins of Satan before God spoke into exist- 
 ence their natural being, and that the people of Anti- 
 christ were raised in the fall of Adam from their degra- 
 dation in hell (in a spiritual sense), to a level with the 
 heirs of promise (in a natural sense), who were in Christ 
 spiritually before the world was, and both families shook 
 hands, as it were, in the persons of Adam and Eve, nat- 
 urally and morally." 
 
 Now, according to this, a part of the inhabitants of 
 this world came up from the infernal regions of hell, and 
 a part came down from the bright land of glory. There 
 is not a solitary passage in the Bible that would lead any 
 man to believe this. It is homespun — the production of 
 a mind run wild on theory. It is dishonoring to God, 
 and a reproach on the fair name of our mother Eve, as 
 you will see, as we uncover the child more and more. 
 Dr. Carlton has it wonderfully wrapped and covered, to 
 hide its deformity. But I know its father— Daniel Park- 
 er. It is not like the babe that lay in the manger, but it 
 is as one coming from the horrible pit from which the 
 Doctor says a part of the human family came. I am 
 astonished at Dr. Carlton, claiming to be an Old Baptist 
 and believing such a theory. 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 51 
 
 I have just looked through the confession of faith of 
 seven Baptist churches of Wales, of A.D. 1643. Such a 
 theory was not in existence among that people, neither 
 is it laid down in their abstract of faith. I also have be- 
 fore me the confession of the assembly of Baptists of 
 England, A.D. 1689, called, in America, the " Philadel- 
 phia Confession." I find no such theory among them. 
 
 If I was an Anti-Missionary Baptist, I certainly would 
 sue Dr. Carlton for damages, for publishing any such 
 creed over my name. But I must examine the theory a 
 little further, and, to use the Doctor's own expression, 
 handle it without gloves, and present it just as it was 
 presented by its founder, and, I suppose, as it is under- 
 stood by Dr. Carlton, that the serpent spoken of in the 
 Garden of Eden was a real personal devil, and that there 
 was a sexual intercourse between him and Eve, and hence 
 the children of the devil were brought into existence. 
 This is what he means when he so mildly puts it that the 
 two seeds shook hands in Adam. I understand this 
 hand-shaking in Adam. I read these " doses" long be- 
 fore I saw Dr. Carlton, but not from the Bible. I have 
 heard it harped upon by its adherents on the streets. 
 especially where men meet to whittle on empty goods 
 boxes, and I have heard it a few times from the pulpit. 
 Those that generally believe it (and they are few) try to 
 wrap it up to hide its deformity, as the Doctor has done. 
 
 Now candid reader, we have before us the two seeds> 
 as represented in Dr. Carlton's theory — the natural de- 
 scendants of the devil, and the natural descendants of 
 
52 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 Adam. The devil's race were all the children of the in- 
 fernal regions from before the foundation of the world. 
 Adam's race were all the children of God from before the 
 foundation of the world. 
 
 Now, the advocates of this theory hold that the two 
 races are kept separate and distinct, and were so at the 
 coming of Christ ; hence this is one of their passages, 
 "ye are the children of your father, the devil," etc. — 
 John viii. 44. 
 
 I ask, who were the people thus addressed? They 
 were the Jews, the natural descendants of Abraham, and 
 could be traced back through him to Adam. So the 
 passage does not support the theory. If the two seeds or 
 races are not kept separate and distinct, we have to-day 
 a conglomerated mass indeed. Such an amalgamation is 
 fearful. Where would their final home be ? Echo an- 
 swers, Where ? 
 
 But the advocates of this theory insist and contend 
 that they are and ever have been kept separate ; that 
 one of the children of Adam will not marry one of 
 the children of the devil ; that is, they do not inter- 
 marry. Mark the legitimate conclusion. As I said in 
 my former article, they are saved by families, infants 
 and all. 
 
 According to the Doctor's own statement, the children 
 of God, which came down into Adam, and the children 
 of the lower regions, which were raised in Adam, all re- 
 turn to the home from whence they came. What other 
 conclusion can we logically come to ? The theory con- 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 53 
 
 tends that none except the race of Adam was represented 
 in the precious life and blood of the Lamb. 
 
 BED. 
 Nov. 10, 1881. 
 
 (To be Continued.) 
 
 Keply to Dr. S. M. Carlton. — Continued. 
 Quoting again from the Doctor, and his perversions of 
 this Scripture, " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ 
 shall all be made alive," the Doctor says, " The ransomed 
 of the Lord were all that were in Adam, in a spiritual 
 sense, at the time of his transgression. So Christ died 
 for all that fell in Adam, as Adam at that time was not 
 contaminated with the wicked principles of Satan, as he 
 was not yet defiled ; but was made susceptible (together 
 with Eve) to the conception and germination of the chil- 
 dren of wrath." We come to the conclusion that from 
 the above statement, and from the Doctor's exposition of 
 this passage, that those who were not represented in 
 Adam cannot die temporally. For temporal death came 
 through Adam, by his violating the law of Grod. "In 
 the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." The 
 thing is too absurd to admit of argument. Upon this 
 hypothesis, it follows that those who were not repre- 
 sented in Christ, cannot possibly be raised from the dead. 
 So the seed of the devil, which the Doctor speaks of, to 
 use his own language, " will sink back into nonentity." 
 It appears to me, if this race are really the legitimate 
 children of the devil, and have once been in hell, as the 
 
54 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 Doctor says, as much as all who fell in Adam had once 
 been in heaven, hell would not be a place of punishment, 
 but of enjoyment, from the fact that they, without the 
 loss of one , are permitted to return back home from 
 whence they came ; for in a human sense it is always a 
 joy after a long absence to return home to dwell with 
 kindred spirits. There could be no remorse from the fact 
 that there had been nothing lost. There could be no in- 
 creased wrath of God, for they had only acted their part 
 that God intended they should ; the only condemnation 
 that possibly could be : that they had not been as faithful 
 in sin as they ought to have been. For, according to the 
 theory, they are only serving the purpose of God. But 
 we learn from the Bible that one man lifted up his eyes 
 in torment, who certainly was one of the natural de- 
 scendants of Adam. He saw Lazarus afar off, in Abra- 
 ham's bosom, and cried, " Father Abraham," etc. 
 Hence he was a natural descendant of Abraham, and 
 could be traced back through him to Adam. It appears 
 that he did not enjoy his home, that he did not want his 
 five brethren to come home, but rather prayed that Laz- 
 arus be sent back to this world, to warn them, that they 
 come not to this place of torment. It appears that there 
 had been means of escape provided, or it would have been 
 folly in the extreme to have had them warned. The 
 great misery of the lost will be that we have made our 
 bed in hell. We next present the case of the flood. Let 
 us see if the two seeds are preserved, (for we are argu- 
 ing from the Daniel Parker standpoint,) two natural 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 55 
 
 seeds. "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou, 
 and all thy house, into the Ark ; for in thee have I seen 
 righteousness before me in this generation. And Noah 
 did according unto all that the Lord commanded him. 
 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his 
 son's wives with him into the ark, because of the 
 waters of the flood."— Gen. vii. 1, 5, 7. Now, the word 
 says, these were righteous ; at any rate their genealogy 
 can be traced back to Adam. I cannot see where the 
 natural descendants of the devil got in, unless they 
 came in with the beast, or some of the creeping things ; 
 then it follows that they could not have been human 
 beings. I must here say to my friend Dr. Carlton that 
 it is bad theory to admit that the devil has creative 
 power, and as you say, his " seed was in his loins," which 
 leads our mind to procreative power, as a matter of 
 course, which germinated through Eve the natural 
 children of the devil. 
 
 We again quote from the Doctor's theory, " The devil 
 being deceitful and cunning, he confronted the woman, 
 and she sinned against the command of God, and Adam 
 loved her, and died to the love of holiness, and was made 
 alive to the love of sin, by partaking of her sins, that he 
 might live with her. Hence we see that the tares were 
 sown with the wheat ; and never until this sin was 
 Adam and Eve capable of the conception and germina- 
 tion of the children of wrath, for the spiritual germs did 
 not exist in them, as they were free from sin, or they 
 could not have been good. So was the field free from 
 
56 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 tares when the wheat was sown ; but there came an 
 enemy afterwards and sowed tares with the wheat. And 
 as Adam and Eve represent the field, the hens of 
 promise were sown in them first, and afterwards the 
 serpent sowed the seed of Satan in them ; and as wheat 
 and tares grow together in the same field or soil, from 
 the same culture, so in like manner do the heirs of 
 promise and the heirs of perdition, conceive, germinate 
 and mature from the same natural parents. See alle- 
 gories of Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Isaac and Ish- 
 mael." My object in quoting from this part of the Doc- 
 tor's theory is to show his flat contradiction. For he 
 said, as I showed in my former article, "That the chil- 
 dren of perdition were in the loins of their father the 
 devil." Here he would leave' the impression that they 
 were sown in Adam and Eve ; yet he claims the two 
 natural seeds, and refers us to the allegories of Cain and 
 Abel, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. Now, what 
 he, and all who are in harmony with his theory, mean 
 by this, is that Cain, Ishmael and Esau were the natural 
 descendants of the devil. His perversion of the parable 
 of the wheat and tares, Mat. xiii., 37. The Doctor says 
 that "Adam and Eve represent the field." But Christ 
 says, in the 38th verse of the above quoted chapter, that 
 " the field is the world. He that soweth the good seed 
 is the Son of man," meaning himself, dispensing truth, 
 either personally or by his servants. 
 
 For by the appointment of Christ the good seed of the 
 gospel is to be sown among all nations, so that the visi- 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 57 
 
 ble church shall be co-extensive with the world. And 
 that many are now in the visible church who have not 
 been born of the Spirit, and such will be the case at the 
 end of the world. Like the foolish virgins, who took 
 their lamps, but no oil with them. — Mat. xxv. 3. But 
 the Doctor insists that this parable refers to Adam and 
 Eve in the Garden of Eden. That the devil was the 
 enemy who sowed the tares by his procreative power. 
 We know that the tares are the children of the devil, in 
 a figurative sense, but not brought into existence as rep- 
 resented by the Doctor's theory, as we will see by an ex- 
 amination of the account given of the fall of man. 
 
 As I said in my former article, man was created in 
 the moral image of God. That is, he was created a holy 
 being, and the character of God was the standard of moral 
 right and moral perfection. 
 
 " And the Lord God took the man, and put him into 
 the Garden of Eden, to dress it and keep it. And the 
 Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree 
 of the Garden thou mayest freely eat ; but of the tree of 
 the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it ; 
 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely 
 die." — Gen. ii. 15, IT. These words were addressed to 
 Adam before Eve was formed. So Eve received the law 
 through Adam. She was not self-existent, being separ- 
 ate and distinct from Adam, u Bone of his bones, and 
 flesh of his flesh." Adam stood as the head and repre- 
 sentative of all the human family ; that is every human 
 being, beginning with Cain and Abel, that has lived or is 
 
58 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 now living on the face of the earth. I adopt the words 
 of Paul in Athens, when he says that God " hath made 
 of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the 
 face of the earth ; and hath determined the times before 
 appointed, and the bounds of their habitation." — Acts 
 xvii. 26. This of course means that every nation, and 
 all the individuals composing every nation, have de- 
 scended from a common stock. This shows the fallacy 
 of the Doctor's theory of a devil with all of his children 
 created in him. For this would necessarily place two 
 heads or representatives in the Garden ; one for the seed 
 of Adam, the other for the seed of the devil. We 
 notice next the cause of the first sin in Adam and Eve ; 
 the temptation, too, does not appear to be so very strong. 
 They were permitted to eat the fruit of all the trees in 
 the Garden, except one. Only one prohibition was laid 
 upon them. They were told that if they violated this 
 prohibition, a terrible evil, death, would come upon them. 
 So far as we can judge, there was no reason in favor of 
 eating the forbidden fruit, and a reason of tremendous 
 strength in favor of abstaining from it. The serpent, 
 however, beguiled Eve, and she ate the fatal fruit, giv- 
 ing it to her husband, who also ate. Paul tells us that 
 "Adam was not deceived; but the woman, being de- 
 ceived, was in the transgression." — I Tim. ii. 14. Eve was 
 beguiled and sinned under deception ; but Adam sinned, 
 as we say, with his eyes open. He knew what he was 
 doing, and cast the blame of his act on God, saying, " The 
 woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 59 
 
 of the tree, and I did eat." — Gen. iii. 12. Eve, though 
 acting under a mistake and a delusion, was by no means 
 excusable ; but Adam was far more inexcusable than 
 she ; for he acted intelligently, as well as voluntarily. 
 The part which the devil played in this transgression was 
 not to sow any literal tares ; but as an evil spirit, he used 
 a deceptive argument, which penetrated Eve's heart, 
 through her mind, and caused her to disbelieve God. 
 Adam's sin was of the same nature, although he was 
 "not deceived;" yet he consented to disobey God, and 
 consent is of the heart, and must have preceded the ex- 
 ternal act of disobedience. It seems plain to my mind 
 that the sin of our first parents had its origin in their 
 hearts. I cannot see where the parable of the wheat 
 and tares fits in this transaction. Neither do I see a 
 generation brought into existence by the devil. But we 
 see that Adam and Eve sinned, because they had the 
 power to do it under this covenant of works. The 
 threatened penalty claims attention. " In the day that 
 thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The bodies 
 of Adam and Eve did not die actually on the day of 
 transgression ; but they died virtually. Not only did the 
 moral death of Adam result from his sin, but the natural 
 death of all of his posterity results from the same cause. 
 There is something more than the death of the body 
 meant by the threatening, " Thou shalt surely die." 
 Spiritual death was evidently referred to ; and it is far 
 more fearful than bodily death. The latter takes place 
 when the spirit leaves the body ; the former takes place 
 
60 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 when God leaves the spirit. The cessation of union, 
 communion and fellowship with God is so great a cal- 
 amity that death is its fittest designation. Adam and 
 Eve died a spiritual death the very day they sinned 
 against God. They were cut off from Him as the source 
 of their happiness and joy. No longer did they live in 
 the light of His countenance, with His smiles resting 
 upon them ; but they walked in darkness, and trembled 
 under the frown of the Almighty. It is written of the 
 apostate head of our race, '*' Therefore the Lord God sent 
 him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground 
 from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man ; 
 and he placed at the east of the Garden of Eden Cheru- 
 bim and a flaming sword which turned every way, to 
 keep the way of the tree of life." — Gen. hi. 23, 24. 
 Nov 24, 1881. EED. 
 
 {To be continued.) 
 
 Eeply to Dr. S. M. Carlton.— Continued. 
 As we said in our former article, Adam, though creat- 
 ed holy, did not remain in that state, but by voluntary 
 transgression fell therefrom, bringing ruin on himself, 
 and his posterity. His sinful nature is propagated by 
 ordinary generation, and the propagation had an early 
 beginning; for it is said of Adam that he " begat 
 a son in his own likeness, after his image. " — Gen. v. 
 3. This declaration is specially worthy of notice, in view 
 of the fact that " God created man in his own image." — 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 61 
 
 Gen. i. 27. Had Adam remained in his state of inno- 
 cence, no donbt his children would have been born as he 
 was created, namely, in the moral image of God. But he 
 sinned, and humanity becoming poisoned in its source 
 has transmitted poisonous streams only through all gen- 
 erations. Paul, assuming as true the universal corrup- 
 tion of human nature, refers to "the children of disobe- 
 dience," and says, as we have seen, that himself and the 
 members of the church of Ephesus had formerly a place 
 among them. "Among whom also we all had our con- 
 versation in time past, in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling 
 the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by na- 
 ture the children of wrath, even as others." — Eph. ii. 3. 
 Children of sin ; and if we are by nature children of 
 wrath, we are by nature children of sin. All unregenerated 
 men stand before God just alike, and are denominated 
 children of wrath, children of sin, children of the wicked 
 one, children of the devil, tares. And all the names that 
 Dr. Carlton would call up in proof that they were the 
 natural descendants of the devil, only go to prove what 
 we have before stated, that all become sinners by the 
 transgression of one man. Hence David said, " Behold, 
 I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother con- 
 ceive me." — Ps. Ii. 5. "For we have before proved 
 both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin ; as 
 it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one ; there 
 is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh 
 after God." — Rom. iii. 9, 11. This is a severe indictment 
 of the human race, for it includes Jews and Gentiles, 
 
62 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 the two divisions of the race, and declares all guilty be- 
 fore God. Every mouth is stopped, in view of the just 
 sentence of condemnation pronounced by the law. This 
 is what is usually called the moral law, the only law 
 whose jurisdiction extends to "all the world." It is 
 manifest that the foregoing Scripture teaches man's con- 
 demnation, and his depravity. He is condemned be- 
 cause he has transgressed the law of God, and not be- 
 cause, as Dr. Carlton contends, that it was so fixed by 
 the decrees of God before the f omidation of the world ; 
 or that they were the children of the devil, and came up 
 from the infernal regions. We have repeatedly said 
 that Dr. Carlton's theory is dishonoring to God. This I 
 think I have shown in my former articles, but propose to 
 show it again by quoting from him. He says, " Provi- 
 dence has wisely put into the minds of all men to believe 
 that there is a chance for them individually to be saved. 
 Even the heirs of perdition believe alike with the heirs 
 of promise, (prior to regeneration) that they will be, or 
 can be, saved upon legal principles, and are ever trying 
 to court the favor of God upon law principles, hoping 
 to bring God under obligations to save them." This is 
 very dishonoring to God indeed, to presume to say that 
 he would fix a law in order to delude a part of the human 
 family. But to put it more in harmony with the Doc- 
 tor's arguments, that God would bring up a part of the 
 children from the infernal regions, and fool them, mak- 
 ing them believe that they could get to heaven, and amid 
 all their striving God is only deluding them at every 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 63 
 
 step. Far be it from God ; for he is a God of love, justice 
 and mercy, and does not damn any one on any such prin- 
 ciples ; but sinners are lost on principles of justice. They 
 will not sink back, as Dr. Carlton says, into nonentity, 
 but they will be punished. What is punishment ? It is 
 the infliction of pain for disobedience. Punishment has 
 reference to sin, and under the government of God it is 
 the executed penalty, of His law. It is God who ex- 
 ecutes this penalty, which is death. Some contend 
 that the wicked will only be punished by painful mem- 
 ories, remorse of conscience, and agony of despair. No 
 doubt memory has to do with the miseries of the lost, 
 but an operation of the memory is not- the penalty of the 
 divine law. Eemorse of conscience is inseparable from 
 the penalty, but it is not the penalty. The truth is, that 
 the penalty of God's law is death. " The wages of sin 
 is death ; but the gift of God is eternal life, through 
 Jesus Christ our Lord." — Eom. vi. 23. 
 
 God punishes them because they deserve to be pun- 
 ished. This is the only true philosophy of punishment. 
 The supreme reason why sinners are punished is that 
 because of their sins, they deserve punishment. God, 
 as moral governor of the universe, executes the penalty 
 of His law. This fact enables us to understand what is 
 meant by " the wrath of God." This is a scriptural 
 phrase, and it denotes God's just and holy indignation 
 against sin. This indignation arises from the fact that 
 sin is a transgression of His law, and therefore His just- 
 ice and holiness, yes, and His'goodness, too, imperatively 
 
64 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 requires that sinners be punished. There is no Bible in 
 the Doctor's theory — no reason ; the very thought is 
 blasphemous. That God would bring up children from 
 the regions of hell in order to delude them ; give them 
 bodies, make them believe they are going to heaven, 
 then in the final judgment, say, "I was only acting the 
 part of a deceiver in your case, for it was always my 
 intention to send you to hell." Does Dr. Carlton and his 
 adherents believe this ? Or do they use it only for 
 argument's sake ? I will not accuse him as harshly 
 as he did me, when he said that I advocated certain 
 theories through dishonesty ; but I will say that it is a 
 want of Bible knowledge on his part. Narrow views 
 of God indeed, and of the plan of salvation, built up 
 alone by isolated passages. Why not take the teaching 
 of Jesus, who is so clear and plain upon the subject? ' Tor 
 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten 
 Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, 
 but have everlasting life." — John hi. 16. This passage 
 shows the universal love of God to all mankind ; and He 
 loves to the extent, that notwithstanding the voluntary 
 sin of man in violating His holy and righteous law, that 
 He offers eternal life in and through His Son, the Lord 
 Jesus Christ. The gospel is the means in the hands of 
 God for the salvation of sinners. But the Doctor con- 
 tends that the gospel is not a public address to sinners. 
 We quote from his article : " The preaching of the gos- 
 pel indiscriminately to all men is for the purpose of sup- 
 plying his vessels of mercy with spiritual food, and is for 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 65 
 
 the further purpose of confounding the brain religion of 
 the mighty and wise of Antichrist, leaving Satan and his 
 spiritual progeny without excuse, that they may not plead 
 ignorance in the day of final retribution, thereby making 
 their own condemnation more complete." Let us com- 
 pare this with the Bible. " Go ye into all the world, and 
 preach the gospel to every creature : he that belie veth 
 and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not 
 shall be damned." — Mark xvi. 15, 16. According to this 
 commission, salvation is offered to the whole human 
 family. 
 
 Language could be neither more general nor more spe- 
 cific. " Into all the world," to " every creature." But 
 the fearful intimation is that some will not believe, and 
 through unbelief will incur damnation. It is the duty 
 of all to believe. Believe what? The gospel. " And the 
 times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now com- 
 mandeth all men everywhere to repent ; because He hath 
 appointed a day in which He will judge the world in 
 righteousness, by that man whom He hath ordained ; 
 whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that 
 He hath raised him from the dead." — Acts xvii. 30, 31. 
 Other Scriptures might be quoted to prove the fallacy of 
 the Doctor's position in regard to the preaching of the gos- 
 pel, but we think the above quoted sufficient. In notic- 
 ing his article farther, he destroys everything pertaining 
 to the grace of God in the plan of salvation, in evidence 
 of which I quote again from his article. 
 
 Eef erring to sinners, he says : "They are lost upon a 
 
GQ A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 principle of justice, and that justice is based upon the fact 
 that the heirs of perdition, in a spiritual sense, are not 
 God's. They came from the infernal regions, and they will 
 return to Satan, the author of their spiritual existence; and 
 in like manner, the heirs of promise will return to Christ 
 in heaven, from whence they came, who is the author of 
 their spiritual existence." I contend that it would be no 
 act of grace for God to bestow upon his children what 
 naturally belongs to them from all eternity. They go to 
 heaven by right, and not by grace ; hence that good old 
 hymn, "Amazing grace!" is wrong, and should have 
 been written: 
 
 " Amazing decree! how sweet the sound! 
 
 That saved a child of God ; 
 I never was lost, but was always found ; 
 
 Never was blind, but did always see.*' 
 
 According to the Doctor's theory, the word grace, that 
 has been so precious to Christians in every age of the 
 world, would be lost. 
 
 No one is unworthy, according to the theory ; none 
 are lost except the children of the devil, and they were 
 created for that express purpose. No one is saved, ex- 
 cept those who had once been in heaven ; hence the 
 word grace is lost. The theory teaches eternal condem- 
 nation upon the heirs of perdition. Eternal justification 
 follows as to the heirs of promise as a matter of course, 
 and I see not why eternal regeneration, or eternal adop- 
 tion, or eternal sanctification, may not be as consistently 
 advocated as eternal justification. The purpose of 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 67 
 
 God will furnish as plausible arguments in the one case 
 as in the other ; that is to say, it will furnish no argu- 
 ments at all. Justification, according to the teachings 
 of the Scriptures, always implies previous condemnation. 
 If, then, justification dates back from eternity, shall we 
 say that condemnation was antecedent to eternity ? This 
 would be absurd. The position which we assume is that 
 all are condemned, all are lost, and that none are justi- 
 fied only by faith in Christ, and are therefore justified 
 when they believe on him, which is proven by the fol- 
 lowing Scriptures : "He that believe th on him is not 
 condemned ; but he that believeth not is condemned 
 already, because he hath not believed in the name of the 
 only begotten Son of God." — I John hi. 18. "And by 
 him all that believe are justified from all things from 
 which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." — 
 Acts. xiii. 39. " Therefore being justified by faith, we 
 have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." — 
 Rom. v. 1. The Doctor says, "God saves them because 
 they are His, and rejects them because they are not His." 
 Let us see how this corresponds with the doctrine of 
 adoption as taught in the Bible. 
 
 The theory makes God adopt His own children, who 
 were His from all eternity. Such an idea is contrary to 
 the teachings of the Bible, or human reason. We will 
 briefly illustrate the doctrine of adoption. By this pro- 
 cess, children are taken from families of which they are 
 natural members, introduced into other families, and 
 made to sustain a legal relation thereto — a relation simi- 
 
68 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 lar in its results to those of the natural relation. Such 
 children are recognized as the children of those who had 
 them adopted, and become their heirs. In view of this 
 definition of civil adoption we can easily see that spirit- 
 ual adoption is the act by which God takes those who 
 are denominated in the Scriptures children of wrath, 
 children of the wicked one, children of the devil, into a 
 new relation to Himself — a filial relation, involving their 
 recognition and treatment as children. They are dis- 
 tinguished by the appellation, "Sons and daughters of 
 the Lord Almighty." — II Cor. vi. 18. I have briefly 
 gone through with the Doctor's -theory of the plan of 
 salvation, and have shown, I think, to all unbiased 
 minds, that it is unscriptural, and, as I said in the out- 
 set, dishonoring to God. I will in my next, prove that 
 the Missionary Baptists are the Primitive Baptists. 
 
 Eespectfully, 
 Dec. 1st, 1881. EED. 
 
 Who are the Primitive Baptists? 
 
 I quote from Dr. Carlton's article of Oct. 27th, " We 
 wish it distinctly understood that personally we are a 
 friend to Mr. Red, but a bitter enemy to his religious 
 dogmas ; and when we take off our gloves to handle his 
 assertions and perversions, we mean to do him no per- 
 sonal harm. The devil himself was not more presump- 
 tuous when he confronted our mother Eve in the Garden 
 of Eden, and gave God the lie, than is our friend Red 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 69 
 
 when he attempts to claim the name of 4 Old School or 
 Primitive Baptist ; ' neither was the devil further from 
 the truth than is our friend Red, and his assertions and 
 presumptions will ever stand as assertions and presump- 
 tions without proof ; for every honest historian knows 
 the fallacy of his pretense, and he is now begging the 
 question and desiring to be called by her name, to im- 
 mortalize his shame, and is climbing up Gome other way 
 as a thief and a robber." — John x. 1. 
 
 These are very grave accusations Dr. Carlton has 
 brought against me. No doubt it would stir the Irish 
 blood in my veins, were it not that I am so well ac- 
 quainted with him. He always has a certain quantity 
 of gas on hand, and that must escape, it matters not 
 what he goes at ; so I shall pay no attention to the gassy 
 and abusive part of his article, but will briefly show by 
 Scripture and history who are the Primitive Baptists, 
 the Missionary or Anti-missionary Baptists. I will first 
 give a brief definition of a church. A church is a con- 
 gregation of Christ's baptized disciples, united in the belief 
 of what he has said, and covenanted to do what he has 
 commanded. 
 
 I now ask, who were the first in the church ? Paul 
 answers the question. " And God hath set some in the 
 church ; first Apostles." — I Cor. xii. 28. Then to 
 whom was the commission given? " Co ye into all the 
 world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that 
 believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that be- 
 lieveth not shall be damned." The Anti- Missionaries 
 
TO A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 contend that the above quoted commission was given 
 alone to the apostles, and hence ended with them ; but I 
 contend that it was given to the church ; for the apostles 
 were first in the church. Then the first church which 
 was organized by Jesus Christ was a missionary body, 
 commissioned to go forth and to preach the gospel to 
 every creature. But did this Jerusalem church, estab- 
 lished by Christ himself, send out N missionaries ? Yes ; 
 for it is said in Acts, " Then tidings of these things came 
 unto the ears of the church which was at Jerusalem ; 
 and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far 
 as Antioch." — Acts xi. 22. Yes, this model church sent 
 out a missionary to a heathen city to preach the gospel. 
 This was a foreign mission. Thus we have seen that 
 the church organized by the personal ministry of Christ 
 was a missionary church ; for as we have stated, she 
 sent forth Barnabas to Antioch to preach the gospel. 
 And this church at Antioch, gathered by missionary 
 labor, sent out Barnabas and Paul on a mission to the 
 heathen. " And when they had fasted and prayed, and 
 laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they 
 being sent forth by the Holy Ghost departed unto Seleu- 
 cia, and from thence they sailed to Cyprus." — Acts 
 xiii. 3, 4. 
 
 And after these eminent missionaries had preached the 
 gospel successfully to many heathen cities, they returned 
 to the same church and made a report of their labors and 
 success in their mission, which is thus recorded : " And 
 when they were come, and had gathered the church to- 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 71 
 
 gether, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, 
 and how He had opened the door of faith unto the Gen- 
 tiles."— Acts xiy. 37. 
 
 We have now proven that the churches at Jerusalem 
 and Antioch were missionary churches. And of a 
 Christian, Paul said, "And we have sent with him 
 [Titus] the brother, whose praise is in the gospel through- 
 out all the churches ; and not that only, but who was 
 also chosen of the churches to travel with us," etc. — 
 II Cor. viii. 18, 19. This brother was chosen of the 
 churches and sent on a mission, and these brethren were 
 called " messengers of the churches." 
 
 As we have shown that the model church at Jerusalem, 
 and some of the churches planted by the apostles, were 
 missionary, it is evident that all these churches were of 
 the same character, from the fact that they were organ- 
 ized under the direction of the Spirit. And in regard to 
 the support of these missionaries, Paul says, ' ' Even so 
 hath the Lord ordained, that they which preach the gos- 
 pel should live of the gospel." — I Cor. ix. 14. 
 
 Here is the f oreordination and decree of God for the 
 support of the ministry. And more, the apostle Paul 
 ventured to take wages for his support in the missionary 
 work. He said, " I robbed other churches, taking wages 
 of them, to do you service." — II Cor. xi. 8. But, if a 
 modern missionary does the same thing, it is considered 
 by our anti-brethren a very high crime. And Dr. Carl- 
 ton says, it is soul-saving for money. Hence, accordiog 
 to the Doctor's theory, Paul was a very bad man. 
 
T2 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 We will next show by history that in the separation 
 the anti- missionary Baptists were the seceding party, 
 which withdrew from the regular missionary Baptists. 
 This secession upon the part of the anti-missionaries oc- 
 cured at different times in different parts of the country. 
 In Virginia, the separation took place in the year 1832. 
 We quote from Religious Denominations of the United 
 States and Great Britain, page 87, in which Elder S. 
 Trott, who was an anti-missionary Baptist, says : " This 
 separation occasioned the splitting of several associations, 
 and many churches. We took, as a distinguishing 
 appellation, the name, Old School or Primitive Baptists." 
 Here is the candid confession of a leading anti-missionary 
 Baptist, that those who are now claiming to be Old School 
 or Primitive Baptists separated themselves from the rest 
 of the denomination, and took a stand as a distinct peo- 
 ple ; and at that time, about 1832, the appellation or 
 name, Old School Baptists. Therefore, according to El- 
 der Trott, there was no body of Baptists in the world call- 
 ing themselves Old School prior to the year 1832. 
 
 Dr. John Watson says, in "Old Baptist Test," page 
 36 : " After my own painful separation from the Mission- 
 aries in 1836, (this was in Tennessee) a number of 
 churches in the bounds of the Old Concord Association 
 met together and formed the Stone Eiver Association." 
 Hence we see from their own statement that they split 
 off from the regular Missionary Baptists, and were but 
 a faction. But were the ancient Baptists, up to the time 
 of the separation, missionaries or anti-missionaries ? The 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 73 
 
 Philadelphia Association, from our earliest account of it, 
 was a missionary body. To place this beyond dispute, I 
 shall quote a few items from the official records of that 
 body. Dec. 8th, 1881. 
 
 {Concluded next week.) 
 
 Who are the Primitive Baptists ? — Continued. 
 
 Turn to Benedict's history of the Baptists, vol. 2, page 
 99, and you will see that in 1753 the Philadelphia Asso- 
 ciation sent out Eld. John Gano as a missionary to the 
 churches in North Carolina, which were soon after form- 
 ed into the Kehukee Association. The next year, 1754, 
 the association sent two other missionaries to assist him, 
 Elders Benjamin Miller and Peter P. Yanhorn, by the in- 
 strumentality of whose united labors these churches, 
 previously deranged, were reclaimed and set in order, and 
 many sinners converted." In this quotation it is shown 
 that the largest and most influential association in Amer- 
 ica, the Philadelphia, was a missionary body, and that 
 Kehukee Association was formed as the fruit of the labors 
 of her missionaries, eighty years prior to the anti-mis- 
 sionary separation. 
 
 We are informed by Benedict, the historian, page 642, 
 in his chapter on Virginia, that the first Baptist church 
 in that state was organized by Eobert Nordin, a mission- 
 ary, who sailed from England in 1814. His brother mis- 
 sionary, Thomas White, who sailed with him, died before 
 they reached America, but Eld. Nordin was joined a few 
 
74 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 years after his arrival by the two other missionary preach- 
 ers, Casper Mintz and Eichard Jones, from England, who* 
 aided in planting the first Baptist churches in Virginia 
 and North Carolina. These Baptists were so filled with 
 the missionary spirit that a few f amilies which moved to 
 North Carolina in ten years became sixteen churches. 
 
 Thus, in examining the history of the Old Baptists of 
 America, more than one hundred years before the anti- 
 missionary separation, we find that these Old Baptists 
 were missionaries. The Charleston Association, honored 
 for its antiquity, piety, intelligence and orthodoxy, was 
 formed the 21st day of Oct., 1751. In 1755, four years 
 after the constitution, there is this account given in Fur- 
 man's history of the Charleston Association, Charleston 
 edition of 1811, pages 10 and 11: "The associations, 
 taking into consideration the destitute condition of many 
 places in the interior settlements of this and the neigh- 
 boring states (then provinces), recommended to the 
 churches to make contributions for the support of a mis- 
 sionary to itinerate in those parts. Mr. Hart was au- 
 thorized and requested, provided a sufficient sum should 
 be raised, to procure, if possible, a suitable person for the 
 purpose. 
 
 With this view he visited Pennsylvania and New Jersey 
 the following year, and prevailed with Eev. John Gano 
 to undertake the service, who attended the annual meet- 
 ing, and was cordially received. The association re- 
 quested Mr. Gano to visit the Yadkin first, and after- 
 wards to bestow his labors wherever Providence should 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 75 
 
 i 
 
 appear to direct. He devoted himself to the work. It 
 afforded ample scope for his distinguished piety, eloquence 
 and fortitude ; and his ministrations were crowned with 
 remarkable success. Many embraced and professed the 
 gospel. 
 
 The following year he received from the association a 
 letter of thanks for his faithfulness and industry in the 
 mission." 
 
 Thus we see that the Old Baptists of the old Charleston 
 association were Missionary Baptists. 
 
 We again call the attention of the reader to the doings 
 of the Philadelphia association, which is the oldest and 
 most influential association in America. This associa- 
 tion was organized in 1707, and has continued to the 
 present time. The minutes of this association for one 
 hundred years are preserved in book form. We quote 
 from page 97, which is the minutes of 1766. We have 
 the following record : " After prayer, it was moved and 
 agreed that it is most necessary for the good of the Bap- 
 tist interest that the association have at their disposal 
 every year a sum of money. Accordingly it was further 
 agreed that the churches henceforth do make a collection 
 every quarter, and send the same yearly to the associa- 
 tion, to be by them deposited in the hands of trustees ; 
 the interest whereof only to be by them laid out every 
 year in support of ministers traveling on the errand of 
 the churches, or otherwise, as the necessities of said 
 churches shall require." Also on page 298, in the year 
 1794, we have the following account of this association : 
 
76 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 "In consequence of information communicated to the 
 association by Bro. Wm. Rogers, it is desired that all do- 
 nations for the propagation of the gospel among the 
 Hindoos in the East Indies, be forwarded to him." And 
 in the next year, page 307, we have the following : 
 "Agreed, that the churches be advised to make collec- 
 tions for the missionaries to the East Indies, and forward 
 the same to Dr. Rogers." 
 
 The character of this body is set forth in the language 
 of H. Gr. Jones, the editor of these minutes, on page 5. 
 
 "The Philadelphia association, from the first, has en- 
 gaged earnestly in efforts for the proper education of its 
 ministers, and the spread of the gospel in the world. 
 Rhode Island College, now Brown University, received 
 its patronage and contributions from its origin, as the 
 subsequent minutes show. It will be seen, also, that 
 from the first it has been an effective missionary body. 
 Hundreds of churches have been gathered by the able and 
 self-denying men sent out at its expense to regions where 
 no religious privileges had before been enjoyed," etc. 
 From the foregoing reliable documents and others which 
 might be introduced, it is fully settled that the American 
 Baptists, from the very first, down to the anti-missionary 
 separation, were missionaries. And, instead of the anti- 
 missionaries being entitled to the appellation, Old School 
 or Primitive Baptists, by way of distinction, they are a 
 new-fangled set of Baptists, never heard of until the 
 present century. So it is altogether a misrepresentation 
 to call the anti-missionaries Old Baptists or Primitive 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 77 
 
 Baptists. It not only does injustice to the regular Bap- 
 tists of America, but also of England and Wales. In re- 
 gard to the names assumed by the anti-missionaries, I 
 would quote from an eminent historian: "Old School 
 and Primitive Baptists are appellations so entirely out 
 of place that I cannot, even as a matter of courtesy, use 
 them without adding " so-called," or some such expres- 
 sion . I have seen so much of the missionary spirit among 
 the Old Anabaptists, Waldenses, and other ancient sects ; 
 so vigorous and perpetual were the efforts of those 
 Christains whom we claim as Baptists in the early, mid- 
 dle, and latter ages, to spread the gospel in all parts of 
 the world, among all nations and languages where they 
 could gain access, that it is plain that those who merely 
 preach predestination and do-nothing, have no claim to 
 be called by their name." 
 
 Had we space, we would prove by authenticated his- 
 tory that the English and Welsh Baptists were mission- 
 aries. We would advise our friend Dr. Carlton to read 
 Baptist history more carefully before he makes such bold 
 assertions. Eespectfully, 
 
 Dec. 15th, 1881. EED. 
 
 Carlton's Last Shot. 
 Ed. Times : — We regret exceedingly the necessity of 
 abridging our article with the limited space awarded to 
 us in bringing this controversy to a close, but feel grate- 
 ful to you for allowing us space to correct a part of the 
 
78 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 misrepresentations of Mr. "Red" upon our articles, he 
 being notorious for perversions and misconstructions. 
 
 We feel to compliment you for your preferment in 
 stopping the controversy, knowing the aversion to a re- 
 ligious controversy in a secular paper among the masses, 
 without the argument happens to suit their particular 
 creed. 
 
 The stupidity of our friend "Bed" is preponderous, 
 and leads him into many spiritual or religious dogmas, 
 or he is wantonly perverting our meaning for policy's 
 sake ; either of which would be bad enough in one who 
 sets himself up to teach. He says : "We will now refer 
 our readers to Dr. Carlton's theory. We will bring the 
 leading points of it to the front ; for the whole article 
 hinges on one leading point." " The Doctor says : Sup- 
 pose we say that the family of perdition stood condemned 
 in the mind of Jehovah before all worlds were, and 
 that their spiritual existence was virtually in the loins of 
 Satan, before God spoke into existence their natural be- 
 ings ; and that the people of Antichrist were raised in 
 the fall of Adam from their degradation in hell, (in a 
 spiritual sense,) to a level with the heirs of promise, (in 
 a natural sense) who were in Christ spiritually before the 
 world was, and both families shook hands, as it were, 
 in the persons of Adam and Eve, naturally and morally." 
 "Now, according to this, a part of the inhabitants of 
 this world came up from the infernal regions of hell, and 
 a part came down from the bright land of glory. There 
 is not a solitary passage in the Bible that would lead any 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 79 
 
 man to believe this. It is homespun— the production of 
 a mind run wild on theory. It is dishonoring to G-od, 
 and a reproach on the fair name of our mother Eve. as 
 you will see, as we uncover the child more and more. 
 Dr. Carlton has it wonderfully wrapped and covered, to 
 hide its deformity. But. I know its father. Daniel Par- 
 ker. It is not like the babe that lay in the manger, but 
 it is as one coming from the horrible pit, from which 
 the Doctor says a part of the human fa mil y came. I 
 am astonished at Dr. Carlton claiming to be an Old Bap- 
 tist and believing such a theory." 
 
 TTe here ask pardon for calli n g in question Mr. 
 " Bed's " literature, and aptness for vulgar constructions, 
 and would refer our readers to his proposed fleshly am- 
 algamation with Eve and Satan in another part of essay. 
 Xo one who has made any proficiency in English litera- 
 ture can possibly construe our language so as to make 
 it mean a fleshly two-seed doctrine. Xor can it be found 
 in our ankle that there is any difference in the flesh. 
 All flesh is as grass, and returns to its mother earth. 
 The difference is in the spirit, and none ever have that 
 warfare that Paul speaks of. between the opposing 
 spirits, except the hens of promise, and they are by 
 nature just like the hens of perdition. (Eph. h. B,) until 
 God puts into then hearts the spirit of His love. Then 
 the warfare commences, and continues the remainder of 
 their natural lives. "And I will put enmity between 
 thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her 
 seed : it shall bruise thv head, and thou shalt bruise his 
 
80 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 heel." — Gen. iii. 15. These two seeds are certainly op- 
 posing spirits, for all flesh is alike. (Mr. "Bed" is 
 pleased to call this Daniel Parker's two-seed doctrine.) 
 Adam represents the flesh and spirit of Antichrist, and 
 Christ represents the Spirit of God. " And so it is writ- 
 ten, the first man Adam was made a living soul ; the 
 last Adam was made a quickening Spirit. " — I Cor. xv. 
 45. " The first man is of the earth, earthy ; the second 
 man is the Lord from heaven." — I Cor. xv. 47. These 
 two personages, or representatives of the flesh and spirit, 
 both had wives or brides, and each one's wife or bride 
 was in his own person before there was any development 
 of either ; and the first Adam's wife was taken out of 
 his side, and given to him for a help-meet, (Gen. ii. 18,) 
 and Adam lived with her, and no other ; and, in like 
 manner, the wife or bride of Jesus Christ was chosen in 
 him before the world began, and was given to him for 
 a spiritual help-meet, and he lives with her, and no 
 other ; and in time is developed by God sending forth 
 the Spirit of His love into their hearts, crying, "Abba, 
 Father."— Gal. iv. 6. "All that the Father giveth me 
 shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no 
 wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do 
 mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me ; and 
 this is the Father's will which sent me, that of all which 
 He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise 
 it up again at the last day." — John vi. 37, 38, 39. 
 
 The above Scriptures, with many other passages, de- 
 scribe the wife or bride of Jesus Christ; and he lives in the 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 81 
 
 hearts of those that the Father gave him ; and they are 
 his wife, or bride ; and he does not live or abide, in a 
 spiritual sense, with any other ; and he dare not live or 
 abide with any other, spiritually, no matter how much 
 he may will to do so with his fleshly will or Adamic 
 nature ; for he came down from heaven, not to do his 
 own will (as quoted above), but the will of the Father 
 that sent him. Jesus, no doubt, had the same will that 
 you and I have, sin excepted, and would have saved the 
 whole race of man if it had been the will of the Father ; 
 just as you and I would do ; but he came not to do this, 
 but to do the will of the Father ; and said that of him- 
 self he could do nothing. If the whole human family 
 had been given to Jesus for a bride, and had been chosen 
 in him before the foundation of the world, it stands as a 
 certainty that the Universalists are correct ; for, as 
 quoted above, of all that the Father has given him he 
 shall lose nothing. He certainly did die for the sins of 
 the whole human family, in a temporal and moral sense, 
 but especially did he die for the believer. (I Tim. iv. 10.) 
 " Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect, 
 for they are not all Israel which are of Israel ; neither 
 because they are the seed of Abraham are they all chil- 
 dren; but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, 
 they which are the children of the flesh, these are not 
 the children of God ; but the children of the promise are 
 counted for the seed." — Eom. ix. 6, 7, 8. This is what 
 our friend Eed calls Daniel Parker's two- seed doctrine ; 
 for which we pity his obtuse spiritual vision ; when 
 
82 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 God has emphatically called special attention to the dif- 
 ference in the two seeds. Again: "For the children 
 being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, 
 that the purpose of God, according to election, might 
 stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it' was said 
 unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger ; as 
 it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. " — 
 Rom. ix. 11, 12, 13. What stronger language could 
 Paul have used in showing the eternal purpose and 
 foreknowledge of God ? Again: " So then, it is not of 
 him that wiileth, nor of him that runneth, but of God 
 that showeth mercy. For the Scripture saith unto 
 Pharaoh : Even for this same purpose have I raised thee 
 up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my 
 name might be declared throughout all the earth. There- 
 fore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and 
 whom He will He hardeneth." — Rom. ix. 16, 17, 18. 
 
 We will in conclusion illustrate our position with the 
 allegory of the potter's clay, and make ourself so legible 
 that every sane man who is not a religious fanatic or in- 
 fidel will be compelled to understand us. " Hath not the 
 potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make 
 one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" — 
 Rom. ix. 21. God is the potter, and Adam and Eve the 
 clay, and they and their posterity the vessels. Had 
 Adam and Eve multiplied before the transgression their 
 children would have been good, as they were good. But 
 they violated the command of God, and the whole lump 
 of clay was leavened with the leaven of sin ; hence they 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 83 
 
 and their natural posterity are sinners, the children par- 
 taking of the nature of their progenitors. All their pos- 
 terity being sinners by nature, they naturally imbibe the 
 spirit of Antichrist, or self emulation, as soon as they 
 arrive by age and reason to the years of moral accounta- 
 bility. And the vessels of mercy remain in this condition 
 until a stronger man, the spirit of grace, takes possession 
 of the vessel, (Luke xi. 21, 22,) and holds the house or ves- 
 sel, at the expense of a heavy suit, for supremacy with the 
 spirit of Antichrist, its former occupant, (Rom. vii. 22, 
 23 : ) while "the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction," 
 (Eom. ix. 22,) are not made susceptible to the reception 
 of the spirit of grace, but are made and fitted to destruc- 
 tion ; and the vessels of mercy prepared by the Potter 
 (God) for glory, (Eom. ix. 23,) but occupied for a time 
 by the spirit of Antichrist, are made susceptible to the 
 reception of the spirit of grace, and are saved in the res- 
 urrection because of their contents ; and the vessels of 
 wrath are lost, owing to their contents. It is the inter- 
 nal and not the external qualifications that make the 
 man, as taught in Masonry. So it is with the vessels of 
 wrath and the vessels of mercy — they are destroyed or 
 saved because of their contents, and not because of any 
 fleshly difference. The vessels of wrath are not injured 
 by God bestowing His special favors upon the vessels of 
 His choice, for He surely has a legal right to do as He 
 will with His own. And He gives to the vessels of wrath 
 equal moral, legal and social rights with the vessels of 
 mercy. 
 
84 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 If this be " two-seedism " and " fatalism/' as asserted 
 by Mr. Ked and his arminian cohorts, Paul and all the 
 Apostles were " two-seeders " and "fatalists ;" and they 
 were not at fault, for Jesus taught it to them, and the 
 Father taught it to Jesus ; and you dare not reply against 
 God. (Eom. ix. 20.) All sane men who are not religious 
 fanatics know that the theory of man's spiritual free 
 agency is a popular farce. 
 
 If God did not know from the beginning who would 
 be saved, and who would be lost, for heaven's sake tell 
 us what He did know, and what He did not know, and 
 where His knowledge commenced, and where it ended. 
 And if He foreknew all things, can all the powers of 
 earth, hell and heaven prevent a thing from happening 
 that He knew would take place? or make something 
 come to pass that He did not foreknow ? For advocating 
 the above doctrine, Mr. Eed accuses us of ingeniously 
 covering up a deformed child, and calls it Daniel Par- 
 ker's two-seed doctrine, when it is in fact Bible two-seed 
 doctrine. 
 
 We with shame reproach ourself for indulging too 
 freely with our friends in the sin of levity, but would 
 much prefer to indulge in the sin of irony, which Mr. 
 Eed is pleased to call gas, than to pervert the word of 
 God for the sake of money and popularity, and then be- 
 come ashamed of our true name, " hireling," and at- 
 tempt to steal the name, Primitive Baptist, to cover our 
 shame. 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 85 
 
 Note. — We here enclose in parenthesis a portion of our article, that 
 the modesty of our friend, R. T. Milner, editor of the Henderson Times, 
 refused to publish, believing that it might be detrimental to the inter- 
 ests of his very popular paper. He further believed that it would injure 
 us professionally, for which we extend thanks and commendations . 
 
 S. M. C. 
 
 (We would not so much blame our friend Eed for act- 
 ing "hireling," and selling his religion to the people, if 
 he was dealing in a genuine article ; but it is spurious, 
 and therefore demoralizing ; and it is represented in the 
 Scriptures as being the Wine of the old mother of har- 
 lots ; and at his revival meetings we have seen him and 
 his dupes get drunker upon it than we ever saw an Old 
 Baptist get upon mean whiskey at a Georgia corn- 
 shucking. 
 
 All the so-called Christian institutions that were ever 
 instituted by man, and not begotten of Jesus Christ nor 
 recorded in the Scriptures of divine truth, are religious 
 bastards, and are akin by affinity and spiritual consan- 
 guinity to the daughters of the old mother of harlots, 
 (false churches ) and are not legitimate Christian chil- 
 dren, having been begotten of the spirit. of Antichrist 
 and born of the daughters of the old harlot, false 
 churches. And when false churches eat, drink, sleep, 
 and commit religious fornication together, they are sure 
 to beget children of their own likeness, such as mission- 
 ary boards, executive committees, theological schools, 
 Sunday schools, to set their children's teeth on edge. 
 
86 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 " The fathers have eaten bout grapes, and the children's 
 teeth are set on edge." — Ezekiel xviii. 2. 
 
 Prayer schools, (known as young men's prayer meet- 
 ings, to teach then young converts how to pray eloquent- 
 ly, as though the Lord was not able to dictate to them 
 how and what to pray for.) Temperance societies, (un- 
 furling their temperance banners and parading through 
 the streets of villages, towns and cities, making a great 
 display ; boasting of the marvelous works that they are 
 doing for the Lord, in helping Him to convert and save 
 the people : when, indeed, they are forcing then* weak 
 minded inebriates (who care nothing for their oaths nor 
 honor) behind the screens and into then closets (to escape 
 detection) to perjure themselves, by violating their 
 pledges. Many other so-called religious societies and 
 contribution schemes might be cited, such as missionary 
 hen's, etc., but we desist : all of which is a violation of 
 the pattern of Christ, and has been instituted by the in- 
 genious soft-handed gentry, known as the clergy, who 
 attain to arrogance and high living by holding out their 
 soft hands, and lisping with their sweet and cunningly 
 devised articulations, that "We must have an assess- 
 ment, brethren and friends, and we do hope that there 
 is not one in the congregation that will be so uncouth 
 as to refuse to contribute to the treasury of the Lord.'' 
 Many other similar expressions and propositions are 
 made, which are calculated to embarrass those who are 
 not willing to contribute to the missions of Antichrist. 
 The poor old woman that is said in the Scriptures to 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 87 
 
 have given a penny, is often alluded to, until the poor, 
 silly old women of the community are induced to rob 
 the inmates of their families, of socks, chickens, eggs, 
 butter, etc., to procure money to secure the arrogance 
 and happiness of this soft-handed gentry, who have with 
 their cunningly devised stratagem induced them to be- 
 lieve that if they did not give to those noble soul-saving 
 machines, thousands of the heathen would die and go to 
 hell for want of the gospel, and that they themselves 
 stood a fair chance to apostatize and be finally lost for 
 neglect of duty. We have many times seen several of 
 the daughters (false churches) unite in what they call a 
 union meeting, and continue for days. Such meetings 
 are generally the mother of much religious offspring ; 
 and when the little ones begin to usher into existence, 
 they and their progenitors all get drunk upon the wine 
 of the fornication of their old mother (Rev. xvii.), and 
 when drunk, they throw much dust into the air, and cry 
 out, as it were, "Great is Diana of the Ephesians." — 
 Acts xix. 28.) 
 
 In trying to follow the religious perambulations of Mr. 
 Red, we are reminded of how difficult it is to track a 
 goat, to ascertain which way he is going, both ends of 
 his feet being the same size. Mr. Red has it wonderfully 
 mixed ; he first has it grace before works, and then has 
 it works before grace ; you can and you can't, you shall 
 and you shan't ; both ends of his religious feet being the 
 same size. 
 
S6 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 ' • The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's 
 teeth are set on edge.'' — Ezekiel xviii '2. 
 
 Prayer schools, (known as young men's prayer meet- 
 ings, to teach then young converts how to pray eloquent- 
 ly, as though the Lord was not able to dictate to them 
 how and what to pray for.) Temperance societies, (un- 
 furling their temperance banners and parading through 
 the streets of villages, towns and cities, making a great 
 display : boasting of the marvelous works that they are 
 doing for the Lord, in helping Him to convert and save 
 the people : when, indeed, they are forcing then weak 
 minded inebriates (who care nothing for their oaths nor 
 honor) behind the screens and into then closets (to escape 
 detection) to perjure themselves, by violating their 
 pledges. Many other so-called religious societies and 
 contribution schemes might be cited, such as missionary 
 hen's, etc., but we desist : all of which is a violation of 
 the pattern of Christ, and has been instituted by the in- 
 genious soft -handed gentry, known as the clergy, who 
 attain to arrogance and high living by holding out their 
 soft hands, and lisping with their sweet and cunningly 
 devised articulations, that "We must have an assess- 
 ment, brethren and friends, and we do hope that there 
 is not one in the congregation that will be so uncouth 
 as to refuse to contribute to the treasury of the Lord/' 
 Many other similar expressions and propositions are 
 made, which are calculated to embarrass those who are 
 not willing to contribute to the missions of Antichrist. 
 The poor old woman that is said in the Scriptures to 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 87 
 
 have given a penny, is often alluded to, until the poor, 
 silly old women of the community are induced to rob 
 the inmates of their families, of socks, chickens, eggs, 
 butter, etc., to procure money to secure the arrogance 
 and happiness of this soft-handed gentry, who have with 
 their cunningly devised stratagem induced them to be- 
 lieve that if they did not give to those noble soul-saving 
 machines, thousands of the heathen would die and go to 
 hell for want of the gospel, and that they themselves 
 stood a fair chance to apostatize and be finally lost for 
 neglect of duty. We have many times seen several of 
 the daughters (false churches) unite in what they call a 
 union meeting, and continue for days. Such meetings 
 are generally the mother of much religious offspring ; 
 and when the little ones begin to usher into existence, 
 they and their progenitors all get drunk upon the wine 
 of the fornication of their old mother (Eev. xvii.), and 
 when drunk, they throw much dust into the air, and cry 
 out, as it were, " Great is Diana of the Ephesians." — 
 Acts xix. 28.) 
 
 In trying to follow the religious perambulations of Mr. 
 Red, we are reminded of how difficult it is to track a 
 goat, to ascertain which way he is going, both ends of 
 his feet being the same size. Mr. Eed has it wonderfully 
 mixed ; he first has it grace before works, and then has 
 it works before grace ; you can and you can't, you shall 
 and you shan't ; both ends of his religious feet being the 
 same size. 
 
88 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 A few of our good natured friends think our language 
 a little harsh ; but an old homespun proverb is, to " fight 
 the devil with fire," and we feel it to be our duty to re- 
 proach the devil when he attempts to slander the word 
 of God or the church of Christ, even at the sacrifice of 
 friends.— Mat. xix. 29 ; Mark x. 29, 30. 
 
 Mr. Eed is correct in some of his historical quotations 
 from Elder Trott and Dr. Watson, but, as usual, has 
 woefully misconstrued them. The Old Baptists did not 
 secede from the apostolic mode of missions, nor did they 
 secede from the so-called missionaries, because they 
 themselves were not missionaries ; but because the so- 
 called modern missionaries had left the old landmarks, 
 and were running after new gods and new patents. The 
 Old Baptists being in the minority at many places, were 
 compelled to set up for themselves, to get back to the 
 apostolic mode of missionaries. According to Mr. Bed's 
 purity of reasoning, the majority is theologically correct, 
 regardless of corruption. 
 
 The Old Baptists, in order to be distinguished from 
 this body of corruption, took the name of Primitive Bap- 
 tists, and the modern so-called missionaries called them- 
 selves Missionaries. But prior to the split, they r were 
 not known as Old Baptists, nor Missionary Baptists, but 
 Baptists. 
 
 Mr. Red is in principle to-day in open communion with 
 all the daughters of the old harlot, in his missionary 
 boards, executive committees, theological schools, etc., 
 the Sabbath school being the fairest and the most lovely 
 
A CONTROVERSY. 89 
 
 of all the daughters of the old harlot, and at whose 
 shrine the old woman and her other daughters, with 
 arrogance and exultation gracefully bow, but without 
 any " Thus saith the Lord," and all that Mr. Eed differs 
 from them in is in name. While the Old Baptists are 
 strictly in accord with the apostolic Missionaries, and 
 have a " Thus saith the Lord " for all they do in a church 
 capacity, without any of Mr. Bed's new patents. 
 
 Again, if Mr. Eed is correct in his reasonings, the 
 ancient Christians who rebelled against Catholicism, and 
 had to seek caves, dens, and the wilderness for refuge, 
 were certainly wrong, theologically, they being a small 
 faction. Again, when Elder Eoger Williams rebelled 
 against the law church that was wont to be established 
 in the original colonies, and who was exiled for his re- 
 ligious opinions to the island of Ehode Island, and who 
 afterwards constituted the first Baptist church that was 
 ever organized upon American soil, was surely wrong, 
 according to Mr. Bed's system of reasoning. 
 
 And to the Old Baptists, the people of this great com- 
 monwealth are much indebted to-day for the liberties 
 they now enjoy ; and why ? Because the first Washing- 
 ton Cabinet drafted the Constitution of the United States 
 from the Constitution of the first Baptist church of Amer- 
 ica, drawn up by Elder Eoger Williams, it being strictly 
 democratic. For want of space we cannot reply to all of 
 Mr. Bed's hallucinations and accusations against his so- 
 called Anti-missionary Baptists; but we are ready to 
 acquiesce in his historical quotations in the last part of 
 
90 A CONTROVERSY. 
 
 his essay, and challenge hirn to show in any part of his 
 quotations where the original Baptists ever put them- 
 selves up to the highest bidder to go and preach the gos- 
 pel, or where they accepted a stipulated salary for minis- 
 terial services ; but they were always content with the 
 contributions that the laity and friends bestowed upon 
 them, after apostolic usages ; just as the Old Baptists do 
 to-day (we do not mean his kind ;) and when they see 
 the necessity of sending one of their ministers on a mis- 
 sionary tour, the money is promptly raised to bear the 
 probable expenses, without any great ado, such as mis- 
 sionary hens, whose eggs are to be preserved, hatched 
 and sold, for the spread of the gospel ; and other mis- 
 sionary menageries, such as admission fee festivals, Sun- 
 day school celebration, bogus auctions at Christmas trees 
 in their churches, etc., all of which is a reproach upon 
 the church of Christ, and has been instituted by Mr. 
 Eed's kind of missionaries. 
 
 With many thanks to the editor of the Henderson 
 Times for his courtesy in giving space to our articles, I 
 am. Very respectfully, 
 
 M. CABLTON. 
 
paet in. 
 
 DIAGRAM 
 
 OF THE 
 
 Christian and Anti-Christian Churches. 
 
 Illustrated by a Supposed Interview Between the 
 Armenian's All- Wise and Omnipotent God of 
 the Universe, and Mr. Eed and his Armenian 
 Cohorts. 
 
 Having been denied the privilege of redeeming a 
 promise through the medium of the Henderson Times, 
 of furnishing our readers a diagram of the Christian and 
 Anti-Christian churches, we here insert a few of the 
 characteristic elements of the churches under considera- 
 tion, drawing such characteristic lines of discrimination, 
 that the casual observer will be compelled to see the dis- 
 crepancy. And in drawing our diagram, we may hold 
 up the fallacy of Mr. Eed, and expose him to "public 
 gaze," as he proposed to expose our article. And sup- 
 pose that we bring a blush to the tinted cheek of the 
 smiling countenance of our friend Eed, and cause "his 
 
92 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Irish blood" to become exasperated; "but he knows us 
 
 so well.'- " and knows that there is a certain amount of 
 gas that we are compelled to get sliet of, or explode," that 
 we feel safe in presuming upon his charity, and feel that 
 he will throw the veil of charity over our foibles, and do 
 us no harm ; for we fully intend to present him with a 
 copy of our work, should we succeed in getting our book 
 before the public. 
 
 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Ae^itnta^'s God. — Mr. Eed & Co. : I am glad to meet you 
 thus alone, that we may freely, but privately and socially, 
 discuss the great errors and truths of the Bible. You are 
 surely aware of my intelhgence, and that I have made you 
 rational, intelligent and accountable beings, and capable 
 of securing eternal salvation, if you will only accept the 
 terms of salvation, which are entirely optional with all 
 mankind. You know that as a rational God, I could not 
 have had it otherwise, and been a just God. You 
 further know that you must act in such a way as to 
 merit the confidence and esteem of your superiors before 
 you can expect to obtain favors from them. It is just so 
 with me. I would feel very ungrateful to my cause to 
 accept sinners into glory, and bestow special favors upon 
 them who had never done anything to promote my 
 Spiritual Kingdom : and reject others for some trivial 
 offense, who had done many good works for the promo- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 93 
 
 tion of my cause. Such a thing would be sacrilege, and 
 is not in accordance with my character. 
 
 Bed cc Co. — Most Holy Father, we are so thankful 
 that you have condescended to interview us. and confirm 
 the doctrine that we have so long cherished, and believed 
 with all our hearts ; although there are many Scriptures 
 that conflict with this theory, and Scriptures that make 
 you the author of sin. and that you save souls regardless 
 of merit, and that you made the devil, etc.. and we have 
 made many efforts to believe it. because it was in the 
 Bible : but since we have met face to face, we see that 
 there is something wrong about it, and we much desire 
 that you proceed further to disabuse our minds. 
 
 Aemtvia^'s God. — I am aware that Moses, Isaiah. St. 
 John, Paul, and John in Eevelation. and these old Pre- 
 destinarian Baptists of the present day. all hold out this 
 idea, beside many others of the old Prophets and Apos- 
 tles : but I tell you. my friends, they are wrong. I have 
 been misrepresented and slandered by them. Even my 
 own Son. Jesus Christ, has written and had his so-called 
 inspired writers to hand down from generation to gener- 
 ation a system of fatalism and decrees unauthorized by 
 me. that would seemingly make me the author of evil, 
 as well as the author of good ; which you know would 
 be inconsistent. The very idea is preposterous, to sup- 
 pose that I would create an evil spirit, known as the 
 devil, to antagonize my spirit of love and mercy, and 
 take the chances against this spirit of evil, that is ever 
 ready to beguile souls and send them to everlasting per- 
 
94 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 dition. I am not only accused of creating evil, but of 
 putting it upon an equality with my spirit of love and 
 mercy, which would give it the same chance to destroy 
 souls that my Holy Spirit has to save them. Now every 
 one of my intelligent creatures knows that I would not 
 have made such a spirit as this, and put it in direct op- 
 position to my love and mercy ; because you know that 
 I want the whole human family saved ; and I would not 
 be a just God if I did not want them all saved. And 
 then, to accuse me of creating a spirit that would, be- 
 yond a doubt, destroy a part of the souls that I desire so 
 much to save ! My friends, such an idea is too absurd 
 to be entertained for a moment, and is an accusation 
 upon my wisdom in the creation, to even suppose that I 
 would have made such a spirit. Therefore you must 
 certainly know that this evil spirit, or the devil, is as old 
 as I am, and equally self -existing, and therefore possesses 
 creative powers, and disregards me and my cause. 
 And when my earthly son, Adam, apostatized, and in 
 him all of his posterity were deluged in the same cate- 
 gory of sin, giving me and my cause away to Satan, 
 since which time it has been one of my greatest efforts, 
 together with all the missionaries that I could induce to 
 help me, to get even a few to depart from this evil one 
 and be saved ; notwithstanding the fact that I want 
 them saved so bad. If I had only known that Adam was 
 so fickle and unstable, and that he was going to give me 
 away as he did, I would not have made him a free agent 
 *as I did, and given him the law that I did ; but 1 verily 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 95 
 
 thought that Adam would not betray the confidence that 
 I reposed in him, when I gave him the law and left him 
 in the garden. But Adam and I are to some extent ex- 
 cusable ; neither of us having any experience at the 
 time as to the stratagem of the devil. And I Vili ven- 
 ture the assertion that this evil spirit, the devil, was 
 lying in wait, watching the opportunity of my absence 
 to do his devilish work. I will venture another asser- 
 tion : that if Adam and I could have the thing over 
 again, we would act very differently ; for we have long 
 since seen our folly. Adam's whole posterity could have 
 now been happy together through all the ages of the 
 world, had it not been for this blunder. 
 
 You will please pardon me for quoting to you a few of 
 the accusations and assertions of those so-called inspired 
 Prophets and Apostles, that these old fogy Predestin- 
 arian Baptists are so tenaciously contending for: "I 
 form the light and create darkness ; I make peace and 
 create evil : I the Lord do all these things." — Is. xlv. T. 
 Now, my friends, you know that old Isaiah was mis- 
 taken about this matter. How could I be the just God 
 that I propose to be and be the author of evil, or the 
 devil, that is trying to destroy all the souls of men, that 
 I so much desire to save ? These Old Baptists are not so 
 much to blame, after all ; for they fully believe that old 
 Isaiah was commanded to write what he did, and that I 
 am its author. 
 
 I am very sorry that the old man did not discover his 
 mistake before it was too late. The only chance that I 
 
96 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 see now to stop this old fogy influence, (for it is rapidly 
 on the increase, although I have had it proclaimed 
 through the medium of my missionaries that as soon as 
 a few more of these old fogies, such as Beebe, Johnson, 
 and othens, died, this element would dwindle into insig- 
 nificance ; but in this I now see that I was mistaken) is 
 to put more missionaries in the field, increase our treas- 
 ury, and re-translate the Bible every few years, until we 
 can by degrees leave out these unauthorized paragraphs, 
 in such a way that it will escape the detection of these 
 illiterate old fogies ; for you may be sure that I regret 
 the mistakes that many of those old writers made, as 
 well as the errors of the translators of King James. 
 
 Again, " All things were made by Him, [God] 
 and without Him was not anything made that was 
 made." — John i. 3. You can here see that there is 
 another mistake made, even in the lifetime of my Son 
 Jesus Christ ; and the strange part of it is, that he did 
 not correct the error, and let the people know that I was 
 not the author of evil. But instead thereof, he actually 
 encourages them in this strange babbling. Again, one 
 Paul, who was a learned man, and I suppose that he 
 thought himself to be very smart, turned to be Old Bap- 
 tist and apostle, and got to be very eloquent, and notor- 
 ious among the old fogies. And in his perverted letter 
 to the Colossians, he gets very eloquent, and says, "For 
 by Him [God] were all things created that are in heaven, 
 and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they 
 be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers : 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 97 
 
 all things were created by Him and for Him ; and He is 
 before all things, and by Him all things consist." — Col. 
 i. 16, 17. 
 
 Now, my friends, this man Paul claims to have writ- 
 ten from inspiration, and he has left nothing that the 
 imagination can think of that he does not claim me to be 
 the author of. And strange as it may appear to your 
 intelligences, near the latter part of the quotation, he 
 says that I made it for myself. And evil is certainly 
 one of the things that " consist," and is the dominion 
 of the devil. 
 
 Now, my friends, in the name of common sense, rea- 
 son, and everything that is sacred, what use could I have 
 had for this evil, or devil ? am I to be accused by this 
 Paul of creating an element of sin, to perplex and annoy me 
 from generation to generation, that is ever ready to thwart 
 my programme of saving souls ? And many times, in 
 spite of all that I and my missionaries can do, the devil 
 robs us of our loved ones, and casts them into outer dark- 
 ness ; when you know, from the very nature of things, 
 that I desire the salvation of all men. And then to be 
 accused by this Paul and these Old Baptists of making 
 the adversary of souls for myself! My friends, it is an 
 insult to my character, and I wish you missionaries to 
 redouble your energies, and I will help you all I can to 
 evangelize the world, and we will continue to get out our 
 New Translations every few years, until we wipe out the 
 memory of the perversions of Paul and these Old Baptists, 
 and then we can save the people in spite of Satan. 
 
98 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Again, in the book of Revelation, the writer, John, gets 
 very humble, and accuses me. And these Old Baptists, 
 as usual, are ready to swallow every word of it. He 
 says : " Thou art worthy, Lord, to receive glory, and 
 honor, and power ; for thou hast created all things, and 
 for thy pleasure they are and were created." — Rev. iv. 11. 
 Can you imagine, my friends, what pleasure I could pos- 
 sibly have in the devil ? For that wicked spirit is surely 
 one of the all things ; yet I am accused by John of mak- 
 ing him for my pleasure. It seems that those old Pro- 
 phets and Apostles, and these Old Baptists, are delighted 
 in their accusations against me and my missionaries. 
 And my advice to you, my friends, is to be patient, yet 
 zealous, and I will be with you in your efforts, and before 
 another century rolls around we will so mystify the pres- 
 ent translation of King James, with our new editions, 
 that we will annihilate this old f ogyism from the face of 
 the earth. For old Beebe and Johnson are now dead, 
 and many others of the old veterans will soon die, and 
 in the meanwhile we will try to kill out their influence 
 before new ones grow up to take their places. 
 
 One other thing I wish to call your attention to before 
 we leave this part of the subject. I am not only accused 
 by those old writers, of making or creating these wicked 
 things for my own pleasure and glory, but these Old Bap- 
 tists are in perfect harmony with them. They say that 
 I was compelled to make or create evil, in order to have 
 good : and that I was compelled to have a hell, in order 
 to have a heaven : and that I was obliged to have bad 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 99 
 
 men, in order to have good men ; and that devils were a 
 necessity, in order to have saints ; and that I could not 
 have affirmatives, without having negatives ; and that I 
 could not have one without the other ; and that I was 
 compelled to make both, in order to make a display of 
 my power, wisdom, goodness and mercy, by contrasting 
 the one with the other. And I tell you, my friends, they 
 make a plausible argument of this thing, and it is going 
 to be a difficult task for us to refute this argument ; and 
 the only way that we can sustain our theory, is to posi- 
 tively deny the authorship of these negatives, and con- 
 tend that we are only the author of the good ; that we 
 did not make the devil, and that the devil is the author 
 of the bad ; and that the devil is self -existing, and that 
 he possesses creative powers. I know that this makes 
 the devil my equal, but I had rather acknowledge that 
 he is my equal, than to be accused of creating these 
 wicked things. 
 
 Red & Co. — Our God, we are wonderfully pleased with 
 thee, and desire to render praise and adoration to thee for- 
 ever, for the great favor that thou hast just bestowed upon 
 us, in that of correcting those mysterious errors that have 
 been such an enigma through all ages, which the wisest 
 and most philosophical minds could not comprehend and 
 reconcile the inconsistency. But we are now satisfied that 
 the doctrine that we and our spiritual ancestors have so 
 long cherished and contended for is true, as we have now 
 heard it from thine own mouth ; otherwise we might 
 have remained in doubt, thinking that possibly those old 
 
100 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 writers and these Old Baptists might be correct. For we 
 will tell you of a truth, that the weakest of these Old 
 Baptist ministers, when attacked by our ablest divines 
 and religious philosophers, will quote a few passages 
 from old Paul, and others of his persuasion, and for the 
 life of us we cannot apply English literature to it in such 
 a way as to make it mean anything, only what they say 
 it does ; and they actually put our wisest men to flight, 
 and bring reproach upon us, notwithstanding the incon- 
 sistency of the whole of their theory. These Old Baptists 
 are actually vain enough to claim that we are spiritually 
 blind, and that we have eyes and see not, that we have 
 ears and hear not, and that we have a heart and cannot 
 understand ; and they are egotistic over it, and claim 
 that they have the Scriptures to sustain them in their 
 assertions, and say that this is the reason why we do not 
 understand the Scriptures as they do. They further say 
 that you have made special appointments from all etern- 
 ity, and that at your own appointed time, and in your 
 own appointed way, you will throughout eternity com 
 municate this spiritual wisdom to these favored ones, 
 and withhold these special favors from others, who are 
 just as good by nature as these favored ones, and in many 
 instances far better by practice. Such an inconsistency 
 is very ridiculous to our minds. For it does seem that 
 these special favors should be bestowed upon those who 
 were trying to do the Master's will, and that justice de- 
 mands this, and that you as a just God would be under ob- 
 ligations to the ones that were doing most for your cause. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 101 
 
 They have gotten up another monstrous inconsistency, 
 and claim that you made a special covenant with your 
 Son Jesus Christ, several thousand years before he was 
 born, and that you gave him a definite number of souls, 
 whose names were all enrolled or recorded in Jesus 
 Christ before the world began, and that Jesus Christ re- 
 presents the Lamb's Book of life, and that it would be a 
 violation of contract for you to grant these special fav- 
 ors to any others except those that you specially coven- 
 anted with your Son Jesus to give him ; but that you be- 
 stowed common favors upon all alike. Now, sir, these 
 Old Baptists can with apparent ease turn to these Script- 
 ures that they say sustain their theory, and with all of 
 our efforts we have failed to refute their arguments, and 
 we much desire your assistance in helping us to correct 
 these errors, for we feel that we are surely correct in our 
 theory. 
 
 Armenian's God. — I certainly feel under obligations to 
 assist you all that I can in this dilemma. Had I been a 
 little more careful in the beginning, and given this mat- 
 ter my special attention, as I should have done, many of 
 these so-called Scriptures would have read very dif- 
 ferent. 
 
 Soon after the creation, when Adam committed the 
 blunder of disobeying my command, entailing sin upon 
 his whole posterity, I at once saw from the character of 
 Satan, with his allurements, that he would entice with 
 cunningly devised stratagem the last one of the promised 
 posterity of Adam, to leave me and my cause, and follow 
 
102 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 him into endless perdition. And to prevent the entire 
 loss of my loved ones, (for I made them for my own 
 glory) I selected a few of those ancient men who hap- 
 pened to be prudent enough to believe me as I thought, 
 and 1 induced them with special promises to espouse my 
 cause and assist me in trying to reclaim the others, who 
 were so tenaciously cemented to Satan and to the love of 
 his cause, that I could do nothing with them, without 
 help ; and even then we did not succeed as I had ex- 
 pected. I then decided upon another plan, which I verily 
 thought would be a success. And I promised those pru- 
 dent men that I would beget a son by the Virgin Mary, 
 and that through the medium of prophecy I would 
 promise the people the help of a Savior in the person of 
 my Son Jesus Christ, who should be a mediator between 
 them and the sin of their federal head, Adam, that had 
 been entailed upon them ; and that this Savior should 
 suffer and die to atone for the sins of the whole human 
 family, without any distinctions or specialties, so that all 
 could have an equal chance to be saved from endless 
 perdition, if they would. I therefore appointed some 
 prophets, and continued to appoint prophets from gener- 
 ation to generation, until the appointed time for the 
 coming of my Son Jesus Christ, and instructed them as 
 precise as I could how and what to prophesy for ; and in 
 many instances they carried out the mandates of my 
 orders ; but in other instances they have misinterpreted 
 my meaning, and have prophesied for a system of special 
 favors to a select few throughout all eternity, when I 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 103 
 
 fully intended that the death of my Son, Jesus Christ, 
 should atone for the sins of the whole human family, 
 without any distinctions, so that the way might be made 
 possible for me to extract my loved ones from the grasp 
 of Satan, and save them as I first intended. But I sup- 
 pose that those old prophets thought, from the fact of 
 special appointments being made to them to assist me in 
 this great work, which had up to this time baffled my skill, 
 that I was going to keep up special favors to a few select 
 persons through all eternity, and therefore wrote it this 
 way, by failing to understand me ; for I fully intended 
 to save the whole human family through the mediation 
 and death of my Son. But in this I was again disap- 
 pointed by not giving my -special attention to the head 
 notes of those old prophets ; for instead of writing a 
 special promise to all men through the atonement of 
 Jesus Christ, as I had instructed them, they made a 
 special promise to a few, as I did when I selected them 
 to prophesy and assist me. Having been thwarted again 
 in my programme, I determined that as soon as my Son 
 was born, and arrived at proper age to receive instruc- 
 tion, I would not let the opportunity pass to fully in- 
 struct him as to my wishes. I therefore waited until the 
 appointed time of his advent, and as soon as he was com- 
 petent of receiving instruction I communicated to him 
 my entire will, and even put my Holy Spirit in him ; and 
 I supposed, with my Spirit in him, that it would be im- 
 possible for him to commit an error ; and I do not believe 
 that he would, had he not, perchance, got hold of those 
 
104 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 old manuscripts written by those old prophets. And my 
 opinion is, that as soon as he read them, he at once 
 imbibed the idea, and became infatuated with it, and be- 
 lieved me to be its author. He very soon got himself up 
 a corps of apostles, and he and his apostles preached and 
 duplicated the same doctrines, as did those old prophets, 
 and claimed it as an inspired message to this favored 
 few ; much to my mortification and disgust. Since 
 which time these old predestinarian Baptists have im- 
 bibed the same doctrine, and are actually preaching and 
 teaching it to-day. But I assert to you that I did not 
 authorize such a doctrine to be preached ; and the only 
 alternate that I now see to extinguish this theory is 
 through the medium of my missionaries and our new 
 editions of the Bible ; for we have been thwarted in every 
 other effort that we have made. 
 
 I now propose to quote to you a few more of these un- 
 authorized paragraphs of Scripture, and show you their 
 inconsistency : 
 
 " And we know that all things work together for good 
 to them that love God, to them who are the called accor- 
 ding to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He 
 also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of 
 His Son, that he might be the first born among many 
 brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them 
 He also called ; and whom He called, them He also justi- 
 fied ; and whom He justified, them He also glorified. 
 What shall we then say to these things ? If God be for 
 us, who can be against us ? " — Eom. viii. 28, 32. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 105 
 
 "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor 
 angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, 
 nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any 
 other creature shall be able to separate us from the love 
 of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. " — Eom. viii. 
 38, 39. 
 
 I would here advertise you, my friends, to notice care- 
 fully the enormity of this harangue, written by this 
 learned man, Paul, who claims to have been moved by 
 the spirit of inspiration to write to the churches at Borne 
 and other places. And in all of his messages of love to 
 the churches he has failed to make a good promise to 
 any except these favored ones, who, he says, I foreknew, 
 called, predestinated, elected, justified, glorified, etc. 
 And in the last part of the quotation he says that they 
 cannot be separated from the love of God, which is in 
 Christ Jesus our Lord. 
 
 Now, my friends, this is a powerful accusation against 
 me. Do you suppose that I would have created a set of 
 human beings, and had their posterity in embryo, and 
 selected out of them, according to the theory of fore- 
 knowledge, a certain few to be saved with an everlasting 
 salvation, and with the same foreknowledge know that 
 the others would be lost in endless perdition ? Yet this 
 man, Paul, actually teaches this doctrine in all of his letters 
 to his churches. And these Old Baptists of the present 
 day positively feast upon it and agree with Paul in ridi- 
 culing the doctrine of my missionaries, and say with 
 Paul, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of 
 
106 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW 
 
 God, but not according to knowledge. For they, being 
 ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to 
 establish their own righteousness, have not submitted 
 themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is 
 the end of the law [works] for righteousness to every- 
 one that believeth. " — Eom. x. 2, 4. 
 
 I appeal to your intelligences, and propound to you a 
 few interrogations, by way of deriding this old fogy idea 
 of old Paul, and these Old Baptists. Suppose that you 
 are the father of one dozen children whose mother is 
 your legitimate wife. Could you possibly know any dif- 
 ference in them according to parental affection ? Could 
 you disinherit either of them in the division of your 
 estate, on the flimsy pretext of election ? Or could you 
 presume to punish one, two, or half of them, with the 
 rod, the balance of their natural lives, who had by 
 nature become refractory or wayward in their obedience 
 to your mandates ? Of course you will all answer nega- 
 tively. Yet old Paul and these Old Baptists indirectly 
 say that the creature, man, is more merciful than his 
 Creator, and accuse me of doing things that are within 
 the province or prerogative of my spiritual dealings with 
 my creatures, that they themselves would not presume 
 to do, as a matter of conscience. 
 
 O ! the heights and depths of the ignorance of these old 
 fogies, and how to relieve the country of their pestifer- 
 ous dogmas is something that I cannot fathom, while the 
 present translation is recognized. For when my mission- 
 aries attempt to overpower them with arguments, and 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. lOf 
 
 appeal to common sense, and natural reason, they at once 
 say that my missionaries cannot see nor understand, "Be- 
 cause the carnal mind is enmity against God ; for it is 
 not subject to the law of G-od, neither indeed can be. So 
 then, they that are in the flesh cannot please God." — 
 Rom. viii. 7, 8. " But the natural man receivethnot the 
 things of the Spirit of God ; for they are f oolishness unto 
 him : neither can he know them, because they are spirit- 
 ually discerned." — I Cor. ii. 14. 
 
 You can readily see from this, that old Paul and these 
 Old Baptists have an exalted opinion of their supernat- 
 ural intellect in spiritual things over my missionaries. 
 And when my missionaries call in question their vanity, 
 they at once reject self, and give to me all the glory, 
 honor, praise and power, and that of themselves they are 
 nothing but poor, sin-polluted sinners, deserving the fiery 
 indignation of my wrath, if I had meted out justice, in- 
 stead of mercy to them. They then appeal to the writ- 
 ings of Paul and his cohorts, and prove that these special 
 favors of my grace or favor were bestowed upon them 
 without merit, and that their spiritual minds were thus 
 illuminated by the light of my favor or grace shining in- 
 to their dark and benighted hearts, giving them acute- 
 ness of spiritual vision over the capacity of my mission- 
 aries in spiritual things, and therefore give me all the 
 glory ; and claim none for themselves. 
 
 And with those old writers, who are of the same per- 
 suasion of these Old Baptists, and who are ever ready to 
 come to the rescue of these Old Baptists with their ab- 
 
108 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 stract paragraphs of election, predestination, and final 
 perseverance, they soon put my missionaries to flight, 
 notwithstanding the intelligence and justice of our cause. 
 
 Only listen to them for a few moments, and see how 
 they rivet their doctrine upon you, and leave you no get- 
 ting out place, with their version of the present transla- 
 tion, although we know it to be mere fiction : "For by 
 grace are ye saved, through faith ; and that not of your- 
 selves ; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any 
 man should boast. For we are His workmanship, creat- 
 ed in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath 
 before ordained that we should walk in them." — Eph. 
 ii. 8, 9, 10. 
 
 " And if by grace, then it is no more of works ; other- 
 wise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then 
 it is no more grace ; otherwise work is no more work. 
 What then! Israel hath not obtained that which he 
 seeketh for ; but the election hath obtained it, and the 
 rest were blinded (according as it is written, God hath 
 given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should 
 not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this 
 day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, 
 and a trap, and a stumbling-block, and a recompense un- 
 to them : let their eyes be darkened, that they may not 
 see, and bow down their back always. "—Rom. xi. 6, 11. 
 
 Do you suppose that old Paul thought that he was 
 writing from inspiration when he wrote these paragraphs? 
 Or do you not think that he did it out of curiosity, to be 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 109 
 
 odd, and to make a display of what he was pleased to call 
 divine or spiritual inspiration ? 
 
 Be this as it may, these Old Baptists chuckle, and exult 
 over these Scriptures, and seem to delight in their oddity, 
 which is in perfect keeping with those old writers, and 
 they are so afraid of works, fearing that their salvation 
 will not be reckoned of grace, that they actually refuse 
 to negotiate with the Christian institutions that have been 
 instituted by the various branches of my churches ; and 
 as usual, they always find Scripture that they contend 
 sustains their theory. Only listen at the abstract verses 
 that they produce to prove that our institutions are not 
 authorized by the Bible : 
 
 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, come 
 out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her 
 sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her 
 sins have reached unto heaven and God hath remembered 
 her iniquities." — Eev. xviii. 4, 5. 
 
 " Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; 
 for what fellowship hath righteousness with unright- 
 eousness ? and what communion hath light with dark- 
 ness ? And what concord hath Christ with Belial ? or 
 what part hath he that believeth with an infidel ? And 
 what agreement hath the temple of God with idols ? for 
 ye are the temple of the living God ; as God hath said, 
 I will dwell in them, and walk in them, and I will be 
 their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come 
 out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, 
 and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, ' 
 
110 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and will be a father unto you, and ye shall be my sons 
 and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty . " — II Cor. vi. 
 U, 18. 
 
 These Old Baptists actually claim that our Christian 
 institutions are institutions of the world, and that they 
 are begotten of the spirit of Antichrist, and that they are 
 more for show and display than for the service of God. 
 And that God has never authorized the organization of 
 but one institution, His Church, and that all other so- 
 called Christian institutions and churches that participate 
 in anything that is not in accord with the pattern of the 
 church set up by Jesus Christ, is of the spirit of Anti- 
 christ ; and that they, as followers of Christ, are com- 
 manded to come out from among them, and be a separ- 
 ate people, as admonished by the above quotation. And 
 they are actually presumptuous enough to put the people 
 upon the stool of do-nothing, to sit and wait for me to 
 come and pull them to heaven by the hair of the head. 
 Do you suppose that I am going to force people to heaven 
 whether they wish to go or not ? Of course I want them 
 to go ; but after making them free agents, I would be act- 
 ing in bad faith, as though I had no confidence in their 
 ability, were I to undertake to force them to accept sal- 
 vation. 
 
 Notwithstanding the plausibility of our argument, my 
 Son Jesus Christ, the old prophets and apostles, and these 
 Old Baptists, all teach, preach and write this doctrine of 
 special favor without merit, and the eternal union of 
 Christ and his bride, (the church,) regardless of good 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. Ill 
 
 works. But all this does not make it the truth ; for 
 this thing got badly tangled in the beginning, and it 
 does seem that we will never get able to untangle it. 
 They further teach that true and vital religion com- 
 mences in the heart, and that the brain or intellect sym- 
 pathizes with the heart, and that any other theory of 
 religion that is conceived by the brain, from intellect 
 or common sense, is brain religion, notwithstanding 
 natural and moral science teach that the brain must 
 conceive before the heart can be affected. But they 
 are so stupid that we will never be able to beat anything 
 into them that is not in the Bible. 
 
 Bed & Co. — Our God, we have listened to thee with 
 much patience and admiration, and our bowels have 
 yearned within us, giving thanks and praises to thee. 
 And we now feel a freedom of thought and speech, that 
 we dared not to have uttered in time past ; for the whole 
 bent of our spiritual convictions was in direct opposition 
 to what was called by these old fogies, " The great and 
 fundamental truths of the Bible." And it was so incon- 
 sistent that we could not believe it, although we had to 
 try to preach it, and disguise it the best we could in or- 
 der to make our theory plausible, so as to please the 
 people and cause them to go with us. And even then, 
 with our best efforts and ablest divines, we failed to carry 
 some good men with us, who actually followed these old 
 fogies, because the Scriptures did not particularly specify 
 our Christian institutions, as was the custom of Jesus 
 Christ and his inspired writers in speaking of the church 
 
112 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 of Christ. As though these Christian duties could not 
 be as well understood as to be so specifically expressed in 
 the Bible. But these Old Baptists reject them all, be- 
 cause they are not in the Bible. We are a little surprised 
 at any of them ever marrying their wives or husbands, 
 because they could not find their wives' or husbands' 
 names recorded in the Bible as being their particular wife 
 or husband, as they seem to be such sticklers for Bible 
 testimony. But we are fully satisfied with your explan- 
 ations, and will endeavor to carry out your mandates to 
 the best of our ability, believing that the day will come, 
 when we will destroy their influence and evangelize the 
 world. 
 
 You have casually mentioned our Christian institu- 
 tions, and from the tenor of your language we can but 
 infer that you heartily indorse them. And we would 
 like for you to more fully explain to us the reasons why 
 they were not put in manuscript by the inspired writers; 
 for. we assure you that they are a great lever in our business 
 of committing and converting souls that would otherwise 
 be lost. Of course we have our opinion about it, but we 
 wish to have it beyond cavil. Was it omitted intentional- 
 ly, thinking that it would be understood ? Or did you for- 
 get to speak of it to your Son Jesus Christ ? Or did he 
 forget to command his apostles to write it ? Or did the 
 apostles refuse to record our Christian institutions, be- 
 cause they would come in contact or conflict with their 
 preconceived opinions of special appointments, of election, 
 predestination, final perseverance, eternal union, etc ? 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 113 
 
 Armenian's God.— My friends, these are pertinent ques- 
 tions, and I feel it to be obligatory upon me to fully in- 
 form your minds upon this important subject. I am 
 aware that these institutions are the great bulwarks in 
 saving souls, for without these institutions it would be 
 but a few years until Satan would almost depopulate 
 heaven ; or, at least, he would deter future generations 
 from embracing the great privileges of saving grace 
 through the mediation of our Sunday schools and other 
 Christian institutions that lead sinners to Christ. Al- 
 though my Son Jesus Christ seems to have turned traitor 
 to his own interest, and against my will ; but you know 
 this was caused by his mind being abused in the begin- 
 ning by reading those old manuscripts ; and I suppose 
 that he is, to some extent, like all other human beings, 
 once committed to an error, they are too proud to retract, 
 although you may convince them a thousand times. He 
 says, " Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, 
 murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to 
 me except the Father which hath sent me draw him ; 
 and I will raise him up at the last day." — John vi. 
 43, 44. 
 
 These are positive declarations, powerfully implying 
 that there are some that I do not draw to Christ. Paul 
 says, as quoted in another place by me, " And if by grace, 
 then is it no more of works ; otherwise grace is no more 
 grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace ; 
 otherwise work is no more work. What then ? Israel 
 hath not obtained that which he seeketh for ; but the 
 
114 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. " — 
 Eom. xi. 6, 7. 
 
 Such ideas as these are ridiculous, my friends. Is not 
 the whole human family mine by creation ? (and would 
 have been mine by salvation, had Adam not given them 
 to Satan, when I made him a free agent,) and do you 
 suppose that I could have favorites among them and not 
 impress them all alike ? No, sirs ; they are free agents, 
 and they are more impressed with the cause of Satan, 
 who has the supremacy over them, and I cannot help 
 myself ; for you know that I would save them if I could, 
 but have delegated the power to them as free agents, and 
 dare not interfere without a breach of contract ; and my 
 only chance to save them is by moral suasion through my 
 missionaries and Christian institutions. 
 
 The idea of Paul saying that I had blinded some so that 
 they could not see spiritually if they would, is to accuse 
 me of a great evil. 
 
 I tell you that these Sunday schools have extricated 
 thousands of souls from the grasp of Satan, and saved 
 them from hell. And I care not for the traditional in- 
 fluence of what my Son Jesus Christ and Paul may say. 
 I tell you to go on with the good work, and save the 
 people from perdition, and I will help you all I can. 
 
 I am sure of one thing, and that is, that I told my Son 
 Jesus Christ to have his apostles record these Christian 
 institutions in the New Testament. 
 
 But after he and his apostles became infatuated with 
 this doctrine that is so detestable to you and I, and being 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 115 
 
 sure that our institutious would conflict with their pre- 
 conceived opinions of election and special appointments, 
 I am sure that they declined or refused to obey my man- 
 dates. But, nevertheless, I tell you they are wrong, 
 and I urge it upon you as my disciples io leave nothing 
 undone that will foster to the salvation of souls ; and 
 your Sunday schools will commit thousands of young 
 and tender minds, and when they are once committed, 
 and arrive at riper years, their pride will cause them to 
 stay with you, rather than be derided and scoffed at as 
 turncoats. 
 
 These Old Baptists may convince them that the 
 present translation is true, and therefore their theory 
 true ; yet they will stay with you because you are popu- 
 lar and fashionable ; for the fancy of human pride is to 
 stay on the big side ; and numbers, you know, will add 
 much to our treasure and influence in getting out our 
 new translations, and will keep my missionary ministers 
 in neat style, so that they can wield a mighty influence. 
 Although Jesus Christ and his apostles and those Old 
 Baptists all set the same example, in that of wearing 
 common apparel, and in making no big displays in build- 
 ing costly church houses, with elegant cushioned pews, 
 dazzling chandeliers, church organs that belch forth the 
 sweetest melody, when surrounded by our fairest maid- 
 ens and matrons, whose voices are trained to accord with 
 the most delicious notes of the organ, and loud tolling 
 bells to call their elegantly attired saints together ; yet 
 you need not care for any of their old fogy examples, for 
 
116 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 they pride in having all things common ; and, as usual, 
 they have Scripture to the point : "And all that believed 
 were together, and had all things common." — Acts iv. 
 44. But you know that this common business will not 
 do with the various orders of my missionaries ; for your 
 strength lies in your arrogance and popularity, and not 
 in your following the examples of primitive so-called 
 Christians ; and you know that if you were to presume 
 to adopt these old-time examples, you would lose all your 
 influence and popularity, and these Old Baptists would 
 completely devastate your churches, having all these old 
 fogy Scriptures on their side. Hear how they reprimand 
 you: " For if there come unto your assembly a man 
 with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in 
 also a poor man in vile raiment, and ye have respect to 
 him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, 
 sit thou here in a good place, and say to the poor, stand 
 thou here, or sit here under my footstool, are ye not then 
 partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil 
 thoughts ? 
 
 Hearken, my beloved brethren : Hath not God chosen 
 the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the 
 kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him ? 
 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress 
 you, and draw you before the judgment seats ? " — James 
 ii. % 7. 
 
 My friends, you know in this age of refinement and 
 decency it would never do to adopt this precedent. Sup- 
 pose that some poor wretch was to come to one of your 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 117 
 
 fine city churches with vile and tattered raiment, 
 and your janitor was to conduct him to one of your 
 costly pews ; do you not know that it would be disgrace- 
 ful, and your janitor would lose his situation ? Yet these 
 Old Baptists will conduct such an one to their front seats 
 and seem to regard it as a privilege. 
 
 I hope to have your kind indulgence, my friends ; for 
 I. have another one of my most grievous trials to relate 
 to you. And after you are fully informed in these great 
 truths, I think you will be better prepared to appreciate 
 the interest that I have taken in you ; and not only this, 
 but when your minds are fully edified you will then be 
 the better able to assist me hereafter. 
 
 Near the commencement of the fifteenth century, 
 when my missionaries and their institutions were so 
 oppressed in the Old World, and they could see no way of 
 escape from the law church, and other oppressions of 
 taxation, I selected one of the noblest men in the Old 
 World ; I mean noble in intellect and powerful in moral 
 suasion and influence ; I do not mean powerful in wealth, 
 for he was poor, but susceptible of impressions for good, 
 having a warm and sympathizing heart ; and I impress- 
 ed him with the idea of a new world, the limits of which 
 would be boundless for many centuries, for the opera- 
 tions of my missionaries in helping me to save souls. 
 This great and good man was Christopher Columbus, to 
 whose assistance I called the Queen (Isabella), and in 
 order to secure her aid beyond all peradventure I im- 
 pressed her with the great wealth and resources that 
 
118 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 this new world would add to her province. Hence she 
 rendered him all the help that was desired, in that of 
 ships, commissaries, and seamen, to make the voyage 
 across the great briny ocean, where I could locate the 
 various orders of my missionaries, where they could en- 
 joy perfect peace and harmony with each other, and 
 serve me according to the dictates of their own con- 
 science. Of course I arranged things for them to differ 
 widely in their theories of the plan of salvation ; for you 
 know, " And without controversy, great is the mystery 
 of godliness." — I Tim. hi. 16. And while they controvert 
 and quarrel over the nonessentials, and almost get at 
 dagger's point, they all come together on the one thing 
 needful, " Ye must be born again." But this I arranged, 
 that they all should be right in the enjoyment of their 
 own peculiar views. 
 
 I have labored diligently to convince them of this fact, 
 so that every branch of my missionary churches might 
 hold open commission with each other, and work for the 
 cause of the Master. But, as usual, those old writers 
 and these Old Baptists all come together and widely dif- 
 fer with me. Hear them: "Finally, be ye all of one 
 mind, having compassion one of another: love as brethren, 
 be pitiful, be courteous." — I Peter iii. 8. "I beseech 
 Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same 
 mind in the Lord."— Phil. iv. 2. " Finally, brethren, 
 farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one 
 mind, live in peace, and the God of love and peace shall 
 be with you."— II Cor. xiii. 11. "Now I beseech you, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 119 
 
 brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye 
 all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions 
 among you ; but that ye be perfectly joined together in 
 the same mind and in the same judgment." — I Cor. i. 10. 
 "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify 
 God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." — Eom. 
 xv. 6. This sounds very different from the way that I 
 have taught my missionaries, and is not the way that 
 my missionaries teach ; for you know, as well as I, that 
 this would cut off all their communion and fellowship 
 for each other. But these Old Baptists teach precisely 
 this way, and declare nonfellowship for anything else, 
 and I do believe that they think they are right. 
 
 When Coltimbus returned from his voyage, and re- 
 ported the discovery of the new world, (and named it 
 America, in honor of Americus, who was the first man 
 to put foot upon American soil,) with its vast territory 
 and probable resources, my missionaries were rejoiced, 
 and regarded it as a perfect "Bonanza," and determined 
 with my aid to adopt it as their second "Goshen" or 
 "Promised land" and thereby relieve themselves of 
 oppression. But the oppressors came, and after a 
 struggle of many years of toil and loss of blood, they 
 were extricated from their iron grasp by the great 
 soldier statesman, Greo. Washington, whose name you 
 revere. 
 
 Never did my missionaries expect again to be annoyed 
 with these old predestinarians, such as Paul and these 
 Old Baptists, with their poisonous decrees and fatalisms; 
 
120 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 for such is their theory, according to my conception of 
 their views. 
 
 But one Eoger Williams lurked into our camps, and 
 commenced teaching and preaching their nefarious doc- 
 trine ; and, strange as it may appear to you, he soon had 
 disciples. And in order to stop his career, before he 
 poisoned the whole country with his miserable heresy, 
 (for he was no fool,) I had him exiled to Rhode Isla?id; 
 but it did no good. He and his disciples soon organized 
 and constituted a church, and it was impossible to stop 
 the spread of their influence ; for the constitution of our 
 then happy country after the declaration of independence 
 (had it not been for them) guaranteed to them the right 
 to worship God according to the dictates $>f their own 
 conscience. 
 
 And they at once went back to the teachings of Christ 
 and his apostles, and commenced opposing the plans 
 of my missionaries, and induced many good men to fol- 
 low them, on the flimsy pretext that my missionaries 
 had no, " Thus saith the Lord" for their various Christ- 
 ian institutions. My missionaries came to me in their 
 prayers, imploring me for assistance, and I impressed 
 them that it would be best for a large number of them 
 to join the Old Baptist church and swell their number 
 until my missionaries could outvote them in their own 
 church, and in their conferences and deliberations kill 
 them by belonging to them. For they could not con- 
 sistently refuse to be governed by their own liberal de- 
 mocratic constitution, which guaranteed the right to 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 121 
 
 rule to the majority. But. my friends, they actually 
 beat my missionaries in this deep laid scheme, and sepa- 
 rated from them, by declaring non-fellowship for them, 
 on account of my missionaries having departed from 
 the old landmarks, and having no "Thus saith the 
 d" fo: their innovations upon primitive doctrine. 
 Bed & Co.— Our God. we deeply sympathize with thee, 
 and our hearts are pained with sorrow, and our bowels 
 yearn with anguish, at your many disappointments in 
 trying to save the souls whom you created for your own 
 glory. And we feel sure that you would have saved 
 and that you still would save many thousand more than 
 you have or will save hereafter, were it not for the in- 
 fluence of Satan, who has. and we fear will ever continue 
 to beguile and decoy souls from your tender care regard- 
 less of your great efforts to save them. And we know 
 that you are not at fault, for you have used every effort 
 up to the present, that the imagination can conceive of. 
 And yet there are thousands who insult the offered terms 
 of salvation, and tenaciously cling to Satan, or to these 
 old predestinarian Baptists, whom we regard as being 
 but a fraction better than Satan, in their decrees and 
 fatalisms. They actually teach that salvation is only for 
 a few. compared with the multitude, and that this few 
 vas seen in the mind of Jehovah before the world began, 
 and that their names were all written in the Lamb's 
 book of life, and that they have a life relationship to 
 Jesus, as well as a spiritual relationship to Christ, and 
 that thev are bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh, and 
 
122 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 that they are members of his body, and that they are his 
 bride, or wife, and that it is impossible to separate them 
 in this world, nor in the world to come ; that this body, 
 wife or bride, typifies the church, and that it is impossible 
 with all of our efforts, to add others thereto or take any 
 therefrom, without hazarding the perfection of the church 
 or bride, of Jesus Christ ; that Christ is as much related 
 to the church, or his bride, as Adam was related to Eve, 
 his bride ; and that Jesus died especially for his spouse, 
 the church, but that He died for the whole human fam- 
 ily in a common or time salvation. 
 
 They further teach that all along through time this 
 special salvation is manifested to the vessels of mercy, or 
 heirs of promise, who are the predestinated or foreor- 
 dained members of Christ's body, or church ; and that 
 God at His own appointed time, and in His own appointed 
 way, quickens them into spiritual life ; and that after 
 being quickened, they then see the enormity of their 
 sins, which they had never been able to see before, and 
 that they are then loaded down with guilt and condem- 
 nation, and that they then have a travail for deliver- 
 ance resembling the travail of a woman with child, 
 from her conception until her deliverance. They 
 further claim that it is impossible to have a birth with- 
 out a child, and that the child has nothing to do with 
 its conception, travail or birth, neither does it have any- 
 thing to do with putting itself in a condition to be born, 
 naturally nor spiritually, nor does it know that it is a 
 child, until it is born and taught of its natural parents, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 123 
 
 natural things, or born of its heavenly parents and 
 taught spiritual things in the school of heaven, where all 
 the ransomed of the Lord are taught. 
 
 To prove their position, they refer to the conversation 
 that took place between the Savior and Mcodemus, when 
 the Savior told Mcodemus that he must be born again 
 before he could see the kingdom of G-od. And they only 
 have to ask a few questions to put our wisest divines to 
 flight. And we are mortified and chagrined at the sim- 
 plicity and ease that they seem to have in ridiculing our 
 theory. . Only listen at a few of the interrogatories that 
 they use in controverting the doctrine that we teach : 
 
 Sirs, do you admit that Jesus used the allegory of the 
 two births, in his conversation with Mcodemus, to illus- 
 trate the spiritual birth ? 
 
 We do. 
 
 Do you agree that the two births must be similar, in 
 order to make the analogy a good one, and that Jesus 
 would not have selected an allegory that would not have 
 held good in all of its literal and spiritual bearings ? 
 
 We do. 
 
 Well, then, did you have anything to do with your 
 natural conception ? 
 
 We did not. 
 
 Did you, of your own volition, do anything in your 
 mother's travail from conception to deliverance to put 
 yourself in a condition to be born naturally ? 
 
 We did not. 
 
 Were you the sons of your fathers before you were born ? 
 
124 SUPPOSED ESTER VIEW. 
 
 We certainly were. 
 
 Could you iu any way prevent being the sous of your 
 fathers ! 
 
 We could not. 
 
 When you were born, were you any more the sons of 
 your fathers than you were before you were born \ 
 
 We were not. 
 
 Immediately after you were born, and dining your in- 
 fantile life, were you not entirely helpless ! 
 
 We were. 
 
 Did not your mother and muses have to put you to 
 your mother's breast, and put your natural food into 
 your mouths to sustain your natural lives and develop 
 you into manhood \ 
 
 They did. 
 
 When you were older were you not able to eat and 
 digest stronger food I 
 
 We were. 
 
 Had you not been thus nourished, would you not have 
 died or been natural dwarfs 1 
 
 We would. 
 
 If you had died in infancy would death have kept you 
 from beiug the child of your father \ 
 
 It would not. 
 
 Finally, were you not able to feed and nourish your- 
 selves ! 
 
 We were. 
 
 Do you believe that the church, to the heaven-born 
 child, is a type of the mother to the natural born child. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 125 
 
 and that the elders, deacons, and members are figures of 
 the muses of the natural born child I 
 
 We do. 
 
 Well, sirs, do you not believe that the heaven-born 
 child has to be fed with spiritual food, or. in other words, 
 be indoctrinated by the teachers or nurses of the church, 
 for their development in spiritual strength I 
 
 We do. 
 
 Without such spiritual food, do you not think that 
 such a child would be a spiritual dwarf, and therefore 
 dead to any spiritual interest in the church militant \ 
 
 We do. 
 
 But would it not still be a child I 
 
 It would. 
 
 Do you think, then, that this natural or spiritual food 
 made them natural or spiritual children S 
 
 We do not. 
 
 Neither do you believe, then, that this natural or spirit- 
 ual nourishment caused them to be born naturally, nor 
 spiritually, do you \ 
 
 We do not. 
 
 Well, sirs, since you have been so kind as to admit 
 that Jesus would not have used an allegory that would 
 not hold good in all its bearings-, naturally and spiritually, 
 we must say to you that you have indeed nailed your 
 theory of free agency to the wall, and that spiritual self- 
 volition must forever trail in the dust, and be numbered 
 among the lost causes. 
 
 Your accessions in the foregoing interrogatories have 
 
126 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 emblazoned the Old Baptist theory in pompous grandeur 
 over all the isms of man, and set God up as the omni- 
 potent ruler of the universe. " In whom also we have 
 obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according 
 to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the 
 counsel of His own will." — Eph. i. 11. 
 
 You have admitted that the allegory of the two births 
 is a complete one, and that births must be similar to each 
 other, and that there cannot be a child without a father, 
 and that a father implies a child, and that a child has 
 nothing to do with its conception, travail or birth, and 
 that you could not help being the child of your father, 
 and that you were your father's child before you were 
 born, and that being born did not make you your father's 
 child, and that you did not put yourself in a condition to 
 be born, and that you were not able to live of yourself 
 after you were born, and that if you had died in infancy 
 you would have still been the child of your father. 
 
 Now, sirs, you have never heard of a natural birth 
 without a natural child. We admit that some natural 
 children die in embryo, or in utero (in the mother's 
 womb), but they are nevertheless children. Now, sirs, 
 according to the popular theory that all the human 
 family could be spiritual children and heirs of promise if 
 they would, is to deny all that you have admitted, and 
 say that the natural child actually solicits its own con- 
 ception, travail and birth, and that the spiritual child in 
 like manner is instrumental in its own conception, tra- 
 vail and birth ; and that the allegory of Jesus Christ, as 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 127 
 
 portrayed to Nicodemus, is a farce. If the whole human 
 family have an undeveloped foetal spirit in them which 
 they can nourish into spiritual manhood if they will, it 
 stands as a certainty that there are untold millions of 
 spiritual children who have died in spiritual embryo, 
 that have never been regenerated and born again of the 
 Spirit of God, and is a direct denial of God's power to ex- 
 ecute His will in developing them into spiritual existence, 
 and is a contradiction of the Scripture, ' ' Being confident 
 of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good 
 work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus 
 Christ." — Phil. i. 6. Now, sirs, if you contend for the 
 hypothesis that the whole human family have an unde- 
 veloped foetal spirit in them, many of which die in 
 Spiritual embryo, but are nevertheless spiritual children, 
 you at once make the universalist monarch of the relig- 
 ious situation, and your free agency or moral self -volition 
 theory again trails in the dust. 
 
 Now, sir, these Old Baptists will actually put these 
 questions and arguments to us in such a way that we 
 are compelled to answer them as we have the foregoing 
 interrogatories, or expose our ignorance of analogical 
 and spiritual reasonings. Notwithstanding their stupid- 
 ity in the moral sciences and accepted literature of our 
 advanced age, they always beat us in theology. And 
 we much desire your kind admonitions and advice, for, 
 with the present standard of the Bible, they are so well 
 fortified that we find it impossible to compete with them 
 in argument, and we much fear that ours is a lost cause, 
 
128 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW, 
 
 with the present translation as our religious text book, 
 although we are so sanguine as to the correctness of 
 our theory. 
 
 Armenian's God. — My friends, yours is a lamentable 
 condition to be placed in ; and had I have known the 
 dilemma that my former advice was going to lead you 
 into, I should have advised you very different ; but this 
 does not change the correctness of our theory, and I do 
 hope that you will pardon me for thus leading you into 
 an apparent defeat. But indubitable and untiring ener- 
 gy will certainly accomplish any cause that is so just as 
 ours. Although we have to combat against these Old 
 Baptists, and all the old prophets and apostles, and my 
 Son Jesus Christ as their leader, yet there are many en- 
 couragements to stimulate us to press forward and 
 abundantly hope to succeed. " Truth crushed to earth 
 will rise again." So hold up your drooping heads, my 
 friends, and lose no time in the prosecution of the fight 
 to the bitter end, and I will help you all that I can. You 
 know that we have ever been in the majority, even from 
 the days of old to the present time, and have ever been, 
 and always will be popular. Our arrogance and fashion- 
 able society, with our polish of educational lustre, will 
 always lead us to popular victory. And while they may 
 beat us in theology, with the present Bible to aid them, 
 your popular theories will ravish the young and tender 
 minds of their youths, as well as hold the young of your 
 own church nurseries ; and in this way we will be able 
 to deride and rebuke them with their own natural off- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 129 
 
 Spring, and cause them to be chagrined with their own 
 theory. 
 
 You know that they do not believe in educating their 
 preachers to preach the gospel, which education would 
 give them that glossy polish and popular suavity that 
 my missionaries have. They thereby lose much of their 
 influence among the educated masses, in their peculiar 
 arrangement of syntax. And I would advise you to 
 make all the sneering sport of their literature that you 
 can, without making yourselves ridiculous, and teach 
 your children the same lessons of derision, and allow your 
 children to mock their preachers, and sneer at their theory 
 of the Christian religion, and sport at their abuse of Eng- 
 lish literature, and I tell you of a truth that you will 
 drive many proud spirits away from them that would 
 otherwise embrace their theory ; and we would lose their 
 assessment in our treasury, and many of our most in- 
 fluential preachers would soon become as rough and un- 
 popular as theirs, for want of means to put on style and 
 suavity. And you well know that for my missionaries 
 to preach a popular theory of religion that will please the 
 masses of the people, they must be well paid for it ; for 
 if they study human nature and the Bible, as they should 
 do, so as to mystify these unpopular paragraphs and 
 verses that these Old Baptists delight in so much, they 
 will have no time to do anything else for a living. 
 
 I know that they say, " But G-od has chosen the foolish 
 things of the world to confound the wise ; and God hath 
 chosen the weak things of the world to confound the 
 
i30 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 things which are mighty ; and base things of the world, 
 and things which are despised, hath G-od chosen ; yea, 
 and things which are not, to bring to naught things that 
 are ; that no flesh should glory in His presence." — I 
 Cor. i. 27, 28, 29. "For it is written, I will destroy the 
 wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the un- 
 derstanding of the prudent." — I Cor. i. 19. But this is 
 sure to be wrong. How can a man preach, which you 
 know is to teach, without brains and literary attainments 
 that will qualify him to teach aright ? 
 
 These Old Baptists are in possession of much vanity, 
 and with old Paul's experience from nature to grace, and 
 the transition so unexpected to Paul, and entirely un- 
 sought for, they will baffle the logic of the most learned 
 of my missionaries. 
 
 They all rally around Paul's experience, and say that 
 I teach all true ministers of the gospel in the school of 
 heaven, regardless of earthly literature, and that I never 
 call a preacher to preach the gospel without qualifying 
 him, and that I would not be stupid enough to call a 
 minister to the work of the ministry and then not 
 qualify him with spiritual wisdom for the satisfaction of 
 all those whom the Holy Spirit had prepared to hear with 
 that spiritual understanding that is peculiar to my saints; 
 and that none hear it with that spiritual understanding 
 except regenerated saints, and that the rest are blinded, 
 and cannot hear it, except in a literal sense, and there- 
 fore mock its teachings. 
 
 They further claim that all the Theological Schools 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 131 
 
 that I have impressed my missionaries to establish in 
 these latter days are a religious farce, and have nothing 
 to do with saving souls or the plan of salvation. 
 
 Now, my friends, you know that this is all absurd. 
 How, in the name of common sense, can the people 
 be saved without they are educated in all the moral 
 sciences, so that they may be able to reason and come to 
 conclusions from analogical standpoints, as to the ways 
 and means of salvation that I have furnished all men, if 
 they will only improve the oportunity that I have put 
 in their reach, through the medium of my missionaries 
 and their institutions ? And how is it possible for an un- 
 educated man, who knows nothing of the derivation of 
 English literature, to preach the gospel or teach it, when 
 he knows nothing of the origin of the language that he 
 talks ? And the idea of my not impressing all the human 
 family alike, and that they cannot accept salvation if 
 they will, and preach the gospel if they will only pre- 
 pare themselves for it, is too absurd for intelligent men 
 and women to entertain for a moment. And I am very 
 sorry indeed that those old writers, and these Old Bap- 
 tists, have gotten up such a theory, for it greatly re- 
 tards our efforts in trying to save the people from ever- 
 lasting perdition. One other thing that I wish to men- 
 tion to you, not because we succeeded so well in it, but 
 because it was such a singular failure. Many years ago 
 I impressed my missionaries to proclaim from the pul- 
 pit and in common parlance, that the Old Baptists were 
 opposed to educating their children in the moral sciences 
 
132 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and common literature of the day, and that they regard- 
 ed ignorance as one of the chief elements of my special 
 favors in spiritual gifts, etc. All of which has recoiled 
 upon my missionaries, much to their chagrin and morti- 
 fication ; and the false accusation is now deriding them 
 from almost every literary college and school-room in 
 the civilized world, and the sons and daughters of Old 
 Baptists are now leading pupils in all colleges and schools 
 that are not sectarian in their tenets of study, on the 
 American and European continents, and claim that edu- 
 cation is an indispensable boon to the happiness and 
 prosperity of the rising generations in time, but has noth- 
 ing to do with the plan of salvation or the preaching of 
 the gospel, but that education enables the educated min- 
 ister to use more select language in proclaiming the 
 gospel, and exemplifying the Christian religion, and is 
 better able to simplify the meaning of the Scriptures ; 
 but that his education has nothing to do with his spirit- 
 ual gift or call to the ministry, and that the illiterate man 
 of God, who has been called and qualified of God for the 
 ministry, can and does preach the same great truths of 
 salvation by grace as does the educated minister, but not 
 with such chaste language. "For ye see your calling, 
 brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, 
 not many mighty, not many noble, are called." — I Cor. 
 i. 26. "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the 
 soul ; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise 
 the simple." — Ps. xix. 7. But you know that this would 
 never do with my missionaries. It may suit these old 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 133 
 
 fogies to put forward their ignorant, uneducated men, 
 that they say I have called and qualified to teach and 
 preach the unsearchable riches of salvation by grace, in 
 order to confound the intelligence of my missionaries, 
 and bring to naught our intelligent schemes and insti- 
 tutions. Were we to adopt the practice of such ignor- 
 ance, it would certainly destroy the influence of our pop- 
 ular theories, and we would soon become a hiss and a 
 by-word. 
 
 I regret exceedingly that such a mass of so-called 
 Scriptures should have ever crept into the Xew Testa- 
 ment as the word of inspiration ; for no sane man could 
 suppose for a moment that I would call a fool to preach 
 or teach in such mysterious and divine things. 
 
 These Old Baptists are presumptuous enough to give 
 me the credit of doing many things in their favor that I 
 am not guilty of, for which I would rebuke them, had I 
 not made them free agents, and dare not interfere. They 
 actually claim that my missionaries are huelings, be- 
 cause they expect pay for preaching, and because they 
 will not serve churches without pay, and say they are 
 after the fleece instead of the flock. ' 'But he that is a 
 hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are 
 not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and 
 fleeth, and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the 
 sheep. The hireling fleeth because he is a hireling, and 
 careth not for the sheep." — John x. 12, 13. They say 
 that when my missionaries are elected or called as shep- 
 herds to look over or care for a flock (churchy and go in 
 
134 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and out before them, and give them pasturage in spiritual 
 things, my missionaries claim pay, as does the hirehng ; 
 and that if the flock has a poor fleece, and the hirehng 
 sees poverty and tattered raiment stealing or creeping 
 upon him, (as is peculiar to a majority of God's chosen 
 people) as typified by the creeping wolf upon his prey, 
 the hireling fleeth, because he cares more for the fleece 
 than he does for the flock, and that the wicked spirit 
 that the wolf typifies, scatters the sheep, for want of a 
 leader or shepherd to teach or feed them upon spiritual 
 and divine food. 
 
 How, in the name of common sense, can a preacher 
 devote his whole time to the preparation of his sermons, 
 so as to edify and please his congregations, and moralize 
 them, and put them in a condition to seek salvation, and 
 receive no pay for it ? 
 
 Do these Old Baptists expect preachers to go decent so 
 that they will not be a reproach to refined society, raise 
 families in credit, travel and preach the gospel, and sub- 
 sist upon the wind only ? It really appears so from their 
 arguments, and the so-called texts of Scripture that they 
 adduce. 
 
 Is not the laborer worthy of his hire ? 
 
 Did not Paul (who is one of their favorite apostles), re- 
 ceive wages ? 
 
 But, as usual, they always have a getting out place. 
 Only listen at the quotation and its connections, and hear 
 their interpretation of it: "Have I committed an 
 offence in abusing myself that ye might be axalted be- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. i35 
 
 cause I have preached to you the gospel of God freely ? 
 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do 
 you service. And when I was present with you, and 
 wanted, I was chargeable to no man ; for that which 
 was lacking to me, the brethren which came from Mace- 
 donia supplied ; and in all things I have kept myself 
 from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep 
 myself." — II Cor. xi. 7, 8, 9. "Go your ways; behold 
 I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither 
 purse, nor scrip, nor shoes, and salute no man by the 
 way. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, 
 Peace be to this house ; and if the son of peace be there, 
 your peace shall rest upon it ; if not, it shall turn to you 
 again. And in the same house remain, eating and drink- 
 ing such things as they give ; for the laborer is worthy 
 of his hire. Go not from house to house." — St. Luke 
 x. 3, 8. 
 
 Now, sirs, these Old Baptists positively claim that 
 these wages that Paul received were alms, or wages re- 
 ceived from the hands of his more fortunate brethren for 
 manual labor, and that the wages were given to or re- 
 ceived by Paul to be bestowed upon the poor and afflicted 
 of less fortunate churches ; and that Paul did not appro- 
 priate it for self-aggrandizement, as do my missionaries 
 of the present day. 
 
 Paul further asserts that his brethren from Macedonia, 
 who had been more fortunate in this world's goods, were 
 willing and did help him in ministering to the wants of 
 these poor, distressed and afflicted brethren, by furnish- 
 
136 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ing him means to live upon while with the poor, that he 
 might not be burdensome to them. For he declared that 
 he had not been burdensome to them, nor would he be. 
 
 They further contend that it cannot be proven by the 
 New Testament Scriptures that Paul or any of the 
 apostles ever preached for money as a business of gain in 
 temporal things, but that they preached from a higher 
 incentive, prompted by the spirit and power of God, as 
 do the Old Baptists to-day. 
 
 In the last quotation where it says, "The laborer is 
 worthy of his hue," they contend that the connections 
 fully explain the meaning, and that it does not mean 
 what my missionaries would have it mean, when they 
 are begging their laity and friends to pay them their 
 hire : but that the apostles were sent into cities and coun- 
 tries among strangers and enemies to the Christian re- 
 ligion, and are represented as lambs among wolves, and 
 are commanded to carry nothing of carnal things with 
 them ; and if the son of peace {Spirit of Christ) be in the 
 first house they enter, a sign was to be given to them, 
 and they were to remain there ; otherwise they were to 
 find a house whose inmates were the people of God. 
 And they were commanded to "go not from house to 
 house," nor to become burdensome, but to make this 
 house their home, that they might earn what they con- 
 sumed, and that their consumption was reckoned as 
 wages, and therefore " the laborer is worthy of his hire," 
 and that the apostles did not preach for money, as do my 
 missionaries. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 137 
 
 They further teach that there would be too much in- 
 compatibility in the Scriptures for the apostles to de- 
 nounce the spirit of Antichrist in one sentence for preach- 
 ing for filthy lucre, and recommend it in another. Hear 
 the denunciations of Paul upon the theories of my mis- 
 sionaries : 
 
 "For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other 
 churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome 
 to you? Forgive me this wrong. Behold, the third 
 time I am ready to come to you ; and I will not be bur- 
 densome to you ; for I seek not yours, but you : for the 
 children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the 
 parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend 
 and be spent for you ; though the more abundantly I 
 love you, the less I be loved. But be it so, I did not bur- 
 den you ; nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with 
 guile. Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom 
 I sent unto you?"— II Cor. xii. 13, 18. 
 
 My missionaries do not teach this way, neither have I 
 impressed them with such a theory ; and with few ex- 
 ceptions they are compelled to be paid for their time and 
 services in the ministry, for they cannot live without 
 means, and I have impressed most of them with the idea 
 that it is not reputable to have hard hands and common 
 apparel. 
 
 Again, Paul says to his brother preachers (apostles), 
 "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, 
 as it were appointed to death ; for we are made a spec- 
 tacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 
 
138 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 "We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in 
 Christ ; we are weak, but ye are strong ; ye are honor- 
 able, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour 
 we both hunger and thirst, and are naked, and are buf- 
 feted, and have no certain dwelling place ; and labor, 
 working with our own hands ; being reviled, we bless ; 
 being persecuted, we suffer it ; being defamed, we en- 
 treat. We are made as the filth of the world, and are 
 the off scouring of all things unto this day." — I Cor. iv. 
 9, 14. 
 
 The above quotation will not suit the pattern of my 
 missionaries, but very aptly applies to these Old Bap- 
 tists, and I am not surprised at my honorable mission- 
 aries in shunning the society of such a low and degraded 
 set. And my advice to you, my friends, is to hold up 
 your heads, and court the favor and approbation of the 
 royal families of the land, and submit to no such lowli- 
 ness as set forth by old Paul and these Old Baptists ; and 
 with the approval of the elite and fashionable public, you 
 are sure to succeed. 
 
 Only listen how these Old Baptists revile the plans of 
 my missionaries in paying my ministers for preaching 
 the gospel and carrying it to others who would die and 
 go down to endless perdition were it not for being sup- 
 plied with the gospel through the medium of my hired 
 servants. 
 
 They contend that all true ministers are carried by 
 the gospel, and that when the minister is imbued with 
 the Holy Spirit, there is a propelling power in the spirit 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 139 
 
 of the gospel that compels the minister to go and pro- 
 claim the gospel to a dying world ; and that this spirit is 
 so irresistible that it is like "fire in their bones," and 
 that this impression haunts them by day and by night, 
 and says unto them, " Woe unto me if I preach not the 
 gospel." And that the ministers of Antichrist are hired 
 to go and preach and carry the gospel, and are therefore 
 peddling out or making merchandise of the gospel as a 
 matter of gain, rather than labor with their own hands 
 as did Paul and the other apostles. 
 
 They further teach that the relationship of the church 
 and minister is like unto master and servant. And that 
 God requires that masters should give (not pay) to their 
 servants that which is just and right, and that servants 
 should obey their masters, not answering again, (or dic- 
 tating,) and that for a servant to refuse to obey or do his 
 duty, unless his master would obligate to pay him a 
 stipulated salary, would be rebellion in the first degree, 
 and would righteously merit chastisement. Or for the 
 servant to dictate to his master how and what to do, 
 would be presumption of a grave magnitude, and would 
 justly deserve a sharp rebuke. And on the other hand, 
 should the master receive the time, labor and benefits of 
 the obedient servant, and then require that servant to 
 feed and clothe himself, he would prove himself to be a 
 cruel and unjust master, and would be in open rebellion 
 against the laws of nature and of high heaven. 
 
 " Art thou called being a servant? Care not for it, 
 but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather, for he 
 
140 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's 
 freeman ; likewise also he that is called, being free, is 
 Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price, be not 
 ye the servants of men." — I Cor. vii. 21, 24. They 
 further claim that the ministry is a gift from God to the 
 church, as a servant for the benefit and edification of the 
 church, and that the authority of the minister to serve 
 and administer to the church is a gift from God freely 
 bestowed, which gift the minister dare not price nor sell. 
 And that the man who professes a call from God to the 
 ministry, to preach and serve the church, and then sets 
 a price on his services, or proposes to peddle out the gos- 
 pel to the highest bidder, it proves one of two things 
 beyond a doubt. He is either a wolf in sheep's clothing, 
 and after the fleece and not the flock ; or he is in open 
 rebellion against the order of high heaven, and, Balaam 
 like, has sold himself out for the wages of unrighteous- 
 ness. 
 
 They further say that the law from the great King of 
 Zion is, " And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of 
 heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, 
 raise the dead, cast out devils ; freely ye have received, 
 freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver, nor brass, 
 in your purses, nor scrip for your journey, neither two 
 coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves ; for the workman is 
 worthy of his meat." — Mat. x. 7, 11. Which law all 
 faithful servants wish to obey ; and that while the faith- 
 ful servant freely bestows his gift, and serves in love, 
 it is nothing but just and right, for those who are the 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 141 
 
 happy recipients of this free gift that they should see 
 that the servant does not suffer, but that he is cared for 
 in a proper way. 
 
 " If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a 
 great thing if we should reap your carnal things ? " — 
 I Cor. ix. 11. 
 
 "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which 
 preach the gospel should live of the gospel/' — I Cor. 
 ix. 14. " For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou 
 shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out 
 the corn. Doth God take care for oxen ? " — I Cor. ix. 9. 
 
 "For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia 
 to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which 
 are at Jerusalem. It has pleased them verily ; and 
 their debtors they are, for if the Gentiles have been made 
 partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to 
 minister unto them in carnal things." — Eom. xv. 26, 27. 
 
 Now, my friends, these Old Baptists are not so much 
 to blame after all, for they verily believe that these 
 quotations are the words of inspiration. And if it were 
 so, they would be strictly correct when they say that it 
 cannot be proven by Bible testimony that either of the 
 old apostles ever preached for a stipulated salary, or ped- 
 dled the gospel out for money, as do my missionaries. 
 But it seems from the reading of the above so-called 
 Scriptures that these contributions are reckoned as alms 
 to the poor downtrodden minister of God, who is reck- 
 oned as the ox, and is as dependent upon the laity and 
 friends for sustenance as is the ox upon his master's 
 
143 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 crib, whose mouth is not to be muzzled. And the tread- 
 ing out the corn is reckon :d as the preaching of the gos- 
 pel, which is not to be hindered by withholding of car- 
 nal things from the servants of the church, or ministers 
 of the gospel : which carnal things are not reckoned as 
 a debt for services rendered, but as a Christian duty. 
 And that the same unerring Spirit that stimulates the 
 minister of God to go and preach the unsearchable riches 
 of Christ, and to preach it without money and without 
 price to the poor and afflicted -aims of God, will also 
 stimulate the recipients of this heavenly message to 
 minister to the poor oxen ers) of thier carnal 
 
 things, in proportion as the Lord has prospered them. 
 
 They further teach that the church conferences of my 
 missionaries are legislative bodies, instead of being- 
 ecclesiastical bodies, and that my missionaries enact laws 
 that are not known in the Bible, which laws are for the 
 purpose of establishing new institutions and inventions 
 that will compel the laity to pay their preachers, from 
 the fact that the members who are converted and bap- 
 tized into the church by my ministers are destitute of 
 this propelling Spirit that stimulates the true minister to 
 go and preach, in h istained, and that stim- 
 
 ulates all true >aints to give alms to the support of their 
 pastor, servant or preacher. And that the converts of 
 my missionaries are compelled to have a law to make 
 them pay their preachers, and that some of the more 
 wealthy members pay largely in their public meeting-. 
 in order to make a display of their liberality and render 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 143 
 
 themselves conspicuous and popular in the community, 
 so that their merchandise and other pursuits may yield 
 them larger profits. And that there are a few of the 
 true and chosen people of God in their legislative churches 
 who have been deceived and captured by the craftiness 
 of these legislative churches, who pay our preachers 
 from motives inspired by the spirit of truth, who think 
 that they are doing God's service. 
 
 My friends, these are grave accusations against the 
 doings of my missionaries, and all intelligent people 
 know that it is nothing more than a mental hallucina- 
 tion of old Paul and these Old Baptists, and my advice 
 to you is to pay as little attention to it as you possibly 
 can ; for all sensible people know that these so-called 
 Scriptures that seem to justify their theory of the plan 
 of salvation are not the words of inspiration, but are the 
 words of an insane Paul, and are the tenets of a bigoted old 
 fogy denomination, and ought never to have been re- 
 corded in the New Testament Scriptures ; and nothing 
 but time and our New Translations will ever eradicate 
 these pestiferous dogmas from the memory of these Old 
 Baptists. 
 
 Bed & Co. — With much anxiety and expectation we 
 have listened to thee, Lord, and have been both edified 
 and disappointed. We have been edified in the great 
 expositions that you have made of the fabrications of 
 those old writers, beside being much interested in your 
 advice to us as to the proper course to pursue in our de- 
 portment toward these Old Baptists, who are such a ter- 
 
14A SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ror to our plans of spreading the gospel. But we have 
 been lost in disappointment and our hopes have not been 
 gratified as we had expected with a suitable remedy for the 
 extermination of their pernicious dogmas. What a 
 blessing it would have been in all generations had those 
 so-called Scriptures, which prove their tenets to be true, 
 never gone into type ; for we have made many efforts 
 to explain their theory away. And when we apply Eng- 
 lish literature to the chapters and verses that they rally 
 around for succor, we utterly fail to make it mean any- 
 thing but what they say it does, although we know it to 
 be mere fiction and a misinterpretation of your meaning 
 at the time it was written. But it will take years to 
 beat it into the heads of these Old Baptists, for we have 
 brought our ablest talents and literary men accompanied 
 with common sense, against them, but aU to no purpose, 
 and we think it will ever stand thus with them while the 
 Scriptures read as they do at present. And to tell you 
 the truth, sir, their aspirations in religious matters never 
 run above what they are pleased to call the old paths, 
 and they emphatically say that Christianity is not a pro- 
 gressive science, and they are content to grope along in 
 the old way, as though this was not an age of improve- 
 ment. 
 
 By the authority of Paul and others of the old writ- 
 ers, these Old Baptists have merged into a theory of re- 
 demption that bids defiance to the most learned of our 
 theologians, and is in direct opposition to all our mission- 
 ary schemes. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 145 
 
 They say that all for whom Jesus Christ covenanted 
 with the Father to save were merged into sin by their 
 federal head, Adam, and were alike sinners with the 
 children of perdition, and are by nature the children of 
 wrath, even as others, (Eph. ii. 3,) and that the law 
 knew no mercy, but demanded stern justice, which 
 justice inflicted the punishment of death and banishment 
 from the peaceful presence of God, and makes no allow- 
 ance for the ignorance of its tenets, and therefore cor- 
 poreal and spiritual death are inevitable results in the 
 satisfaction of a divine law, and that all who fell under 
 this law of justice would be banished from the peaceful 
 presence of a just God, upon the hypothesis of God sav- 
 ing the people upon the theory of justice being meted 
 out according to our just deserts. " For all have sinned 
 and come short of the glory of God." — Rom. hi. 23. "The 
 thoughts of foolishness is sin, and the scorner is an 
 abomination to men."— Prov. xxiv. 9. "Therefore by 
 the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in 
 His sight : for by the law is the knowledge of sin."— 
 Eom. hi. 20. "Because the law worketh wrath: for 
 where no law is, there is no transgression. "—Rom. iv. 15. 
 " For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to 
 every one that believeth. "—Rom. x. 4. " Who also hath 
 made us able ministers of the New Testament ; not of 
 the letter, but of the spirit : for the letter killeth, but the 
 spirit giveth life."— II Cor. hi. 6. And that the souls for 
 whom Christ died especially, (not in a common, or time 
 salvation) were bought with the blood of Jesus, they 
 
146 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 being ten thousand talents indebted, and not a farthing 
 to pay with, (see parable Mat. xviii. 23) sold under sin by 
 their federal head, Adam, who left them no inheritance 
 but the law of works to pay with ; which works, accord- 
 ing to the writings of Paul, and others of the inspired 
 writers, were not a legal tender for the debt of sin, and 
 condemnation justly followed the law of works. 
 
 It therefore required the blood of Jesus to redeem these 
 favored ones from the condemnation of this holy law, as 
 per agreement between the Father and the Son before 
 the world began. ' ' For by one offering he hath per- 
 fected for ever them that are sanctified.'' — Heb. x. 14. 
 
 And that this blood covenant is typified in the old 
 Testament Scriptures by the blood of the lamb on the 
 lintles of the doors of the people of God, in time of the 
 passover, (see Ex. xii.) and that all the saints of God 
 were chosen in Christ by covenant between the Father 
 and Son, and in time is developed, and is made manifest 
 in their daily walk as Christians, and that this blood will 
 be evidenced by then pious lives and godly conversations, 
 and that they will be passed over by the destroying 
 angel on the day of final retribution, because of the evi- 
 dences of the blood of Jesus on the lintles of their 
 hearts. 
 
 They say that these favored ones, prior to regeneration, 
 are completely bankrupt, and are wholly unable to com- 
 mence paying the price of redemption, and illustrate 
 their theory by supposing that A owes B ten thousand 
 dollars in American gold, and that A is an invalid and a 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 147 
 
 bankrupt, and cannot even commence the payment, and 
 that justice demands that A pay the debt promptly at 
 maturity, without any equivocation, mental reservation 
 or secret evasion ; and that B prosecutes his claim to the 
 last extremity of the law, which law knows no mercy, 
 and would punish A with death, or imprisonment in the 
 dark confines of outer darkness throughout eternity. In 
 this dreadful extremity C steps in as a mediator between 
 A and B, and says to B, who represents the law, Sir, I 
 have a blood relationship to this man A ; he is bone of 
 my bones, and flesh of my flesh ; and he cannot die nor 
 go into prison. I have the American gold, and I will 
 buy him out of this dilemma, and set him free, and the 
 debt shall be remembered against him no more forever. 
 
 In this figure they say that A represents a poor con- 
 victed sinner who has been quickened into spiritual life 
 by the quickening influence of the Holy Spirit upon his 
 heart, softening his stony heart, unstopping his deaf ears, 
 and opening his spiritual eyes, so that he sees, hears and 
 knows his wretched condition by nature, and that he has 
 violated the laws of God, which laws know no mercy, but 
 demand justice, which justice would send him to endless 
 perdition, knowing that " The heart is deceitful above all 
 things and desperately wicked : who can know it ? " — 
 Jer. xvii. 9. And that when all human efforts have 
 failed, which efforts are always resorted to for refuge, 
 until the poor hell deserving sinner, as he sees himself to 
 be, has worked himself into complete bankruptcy, upon 
 the Arminian plan of redemption, hoping to bring God 
 
148 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 under obligation to save him upon a principle of good 
 works, he then despairs of salvation by the deeds of the 
 law, or good works, which law condemns and does not 
 justify. And is represented by B in the figure, who de- 
 mands full payment, death or imprisonment. At this 
 auspicious moment, on the part of B, who represents the 
 law, C steps in and represents Christ in the satisfaction 
 cf the law, and reveals himself to the poor lost sinner in 
 the pardon of his great debt of sin, that the deeds of the 
 law of works could not satisfy, and reveals himself to 
 him, "the chief est among ten thousand, and altogether 
 lovely," being his kinsman in flesh and spirit. "Even 
 so we, when we were children, were in bondage under 
 the elements of the world ; but when the fullness of the 
 time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, 
 made under the law, to redeem them that were under the 
 law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 
 
 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the spirit 
 of His Son into your hearts, crying Aboa, Father. Where- 
 fore thou art no more a servant, but a son ; and if a son, 
 then an heir of God through Christ. "—Gal. iv. 3, 8. 
 
 " That we henceforth be no more children tossed to 
 and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, 
 by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby 
 they he in wait to deceive ; but speaking the truth in 
 love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the 
 head, even Christ." — Eph. iv. 14, 15. "For no man ever 
 yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, 
 even as the Lord the church ; for we are members of his 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 149 
 
 body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall 
 a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined 
 unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh." — Eph. v. 
 29, 31. " But this man, because he continueth ever, hath 
 an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able to 
 save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, 
 seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." — 
 Heb. vii. 24, 25. 
 
 Now, sir, these Old Baptists can with apparent ease use 
 these illustrations and bring up Bible testimony in sup- 
 port of their theory that actually mocks our theory of 
 redemption, and positively puts our legal institutions of 
 salvation by grace (on conditions that we accept the terms 
 of salvation) to flight, as though God was going to reject 
 us if we obey the law of good works, and accept salva- 
 tion as the result of obedience to the law of God. They 
 positively claim, from Bible authority, that our deeds of 
 good works prior to regeneration condemn us. "Know- 
 ing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, 
 but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed 
 in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith 
 of Christ, and not by the works of the law ; for by the 
 works of the law shall no flesh be justified." — Gal. ii. 16. 
 
 And with such Scriptures as these, combating against 
 our* theory, we actually become discouraged, and know 
 not what to do, while the present translation of the Bible 
 is recognized. And we call upon you with much fervency 
 of prayer to hasten the time when the miserable heresies 
 will be wiped from the face of the earth, and establish a 
 
150 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Bible that will approbate and save men in accordance 
 with their deeds of merit, in working for the cause of 
 the Master ; for we know that it is impossible for the God 
 that we serve to save people who sit upon the stool of do- 
 nothing, and reject others who are all the time engaged 
 in some good work for the promotion of the cause of God 
 in the salvation of sinners. The doctrine of those old 
 writers and these Old Baptists are in direct refutation of 
 the passages of Scripture upon which we base our theory, 
 and they claim that with our construction of the mean- 
 ing or definition of these Scriptures there would be an 
 incompatibility in the Scriptures of divine truth that dare 
 not exist in the Bible ; and that all that is written in the 
 Old and New Testament Scriptures is in perfect har- 
 mony, when properly understood, and that the Script- 
 ures that seem to sustain our theory are inferential and 
 nothing more than warnings to the child of God ; and 
 that these inferential Scriptures must yield to positive 
 declarations, and that the "wills" and "shalls" must 
 have the precedence. " Whosoever is born of God doth 
 not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him : and he 
 cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children 
 of God are manifest, and the children of the devil : whoso- 
 ever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he 
 that loveth not his brother. "—I John hi. 9, 10. " Peter, 
 an aspostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered 
 throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Beth- 
 ynia ; elect according to the foreknowledge of God the 
 Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedi- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 151 
 
 ence and sprinkling of the blood of Jesns Christ : Grace 
 unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God 
 and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to 
 His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively 
 hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 
 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that 
 fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are 
 kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation 
 ready to be revealed in the last time. "—I Pet. i. 6. " For 
 this is the covenant that I will make with the house of 
 Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws 
 into their mind, and write them in their hearts ; and I 
 will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people ; 
 and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and 
 every man his brother, saying, know the Lord ; for all 
 shall know me, from the least to the greatest." — Heb. 
 viii. 10, 11. 
 
 " But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the 
 mother of us all. For it is written, rejoice, thou barren 
 that bearest not ; break forth and cry, thou that travail - 
 est not ; for the desolate hath many more children than 
 she which hath a husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac 
 was, are the children of promise. But as then he that 
 was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born 
 after the spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what 
 saith the Scripture ? Cast out the bondwoman and her 
 son ; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with 
 the son of the free woman. So then, brethren, we are 
 not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." — Gal. 
 
152 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 iv. 26, 31. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they 
 were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord ; and as 
 many as were ordained to eternal life believed." — Acts, 
 xiii. 48. 
 
 Now, sir, these Scriptures are positive declarations, 
 and are perfectly incompatible with the Scriptures that 
 seem to sustain our theory of free agency and apostasy. 
 But these Old Baptists can reconcile them with apparent 
 ease with their system of compatibility and harmony of 
 the Scriptures. And the more fully to convince you of 
 the ingenuity of the old fogies in baffling the skill and 
 arguments of the most lordly of our experts in theology, 
 we will quote to you some of our favorite texts of Scrip- 
 ture, and give you their arguments, and show you the 
 ease with which they harmonize them with their dogma 
 of special election : ' ' 0, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that 
 killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent 
 unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children 
 together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her 
 wings, and ye would not." — Mat. xxiii. 37. "The Lord 
 is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count 
 slackness ; but is long suffering to usward, not willing 
 that any should perish, but that all should come to re- 
 pentance." — II Pet. hi. 9. 
 
 "And it repented the Lord that He had made man on 
 the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart." — G-en. vi. G. 
 "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of 
 his death ; nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul. And 
 the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. loo 
 
 Israel."— I Saml. xv. 35. 4k And God saw their works, 
 that they turned from their evil way ; and God repented 
 of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them ; 
 and He did it not." — Jonah ii. 10. 
 
 Now, sir, these Old Baptists contend that Jesus Christ 
 was verily God and verily man, and that he possessed all 
 the divine attributes of God, and all the sympathetic 
 attributes of man, and was like unto man in every par- 
 ticular except sin ; and that the Father carried his 
 humanity all through the days of old, and that there has 
 never been a time with the Father that the humanity of 
 Jesus was not with him, and that this humanity or sym- 
 pathetic nature of Jesus did all of this "grieving," "re- 
 penting," "sorrowing," "rejoicing," and "changing," that 
 we have been accusing the Father of doing. Otherwise, 
 they say, the Father would be changeable, and would 
 not be as represented in the following Scripture : " Every 
 good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and 
 cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is 
 no variableness, neither shadow of turning." — James i. 
 17. They further contend that the humanity of this 
 same Jesus dwelt in the very bosom of heaven until his 
 advent into this world, and that after doing his Father's 
 will on earth he returned to his primitive glory with the 
 Father in heaven ; and that before, during and since his 
 advent, he had a perfect right, being clothed with this 
 humanity, to make laws regulating the passions of his 
 fellow human beings, and to revoke them at his will ; 
 and as this body of Jesus was an incorruptible body, 
 
154 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 that it could not glory in the punishment of human 
 beings. He therefore grieved, repented, sorrowed and 
 rejoiced, with their miseries and joys, and revoked the 
 chastising sentences of the law at his pleasure, and re- 
 joiced when suffering humanity was relieved. 
 
 This same Jesus was prophesied by the prophets of 
 old, and it is said, " He is despised and rejected of men ; 
 a man of sorrow and acquainted with grief."' — Is. lhi. 3. 
 And that the human sympathy of this same Jesus would 
 have gathered the children at Jerusalem, as a hen gath- 
 ereth her chickens, and would have encircled the whole 
 Adamic family with an everlasting salvation, had he 
 been allowed by the Father to execute this human will, 
 just as you and I would do. But he emphatically de- 
 clares that * • All that the Father giveth me shall come to 
 me ; and hhn that cometh to me I will in no wise cast 
 out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own 
 will, but the will of Him that sent me. And this is the 
 Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he 
 hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it 
 up again at the last day. And this is the will of Hhn 
 that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and 
 believeth on him, may have everlasting life ; and I will 
 raise him up at the last day.*'— St. John vi. 37, 40. 
 ''Saying, Father, if thou be wilhng, remove this cup 
 from me : nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done." 
 — Luke xxii. 42. 
 
 Hence they say it is evident from these quotations 
 that he had a human will, as well as a divine will, and 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 155 
 
 that while the divine will of the Father was dealing with 
 the souls and spirits of men, his human will was dealing 
 with the fleshly passions of men, and had forever been 
 a high priest over the human passions of men, as far as 
 he was permitted by the will of the Father ; he therefore 
 had a perfect right to make laws, and revoke them at 
 his will, when it did not conflict with the will of the 
 Father. " Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy 
 power, in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of 
 the morning : thou hast the dew of thy youth. The 
 Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest 
 for ever after the order of Melchizedek." — Ps. ex. 3, 4. 
 " For this Melchisedek, king of Salem, priest of the most 
 high God, who met Abraham returning from the 
 slaughter of the kings, and blessed him." — Heb. vii. 1. 
 "Without father, without mother, without descent; 
 having neither beginning of days nor end of life ; but 
 made like unto the Son of God, abideth a priest contin- 
 ually."— Heb. vii. 3. 
 
 Now, sir, they say that this high priest was a type of 
 this same Jesus before he was manifest in the flesh, and 
 that he came down from heaven, not to do this priestly 
 human will, but the will of the Father. And from the 
 fact of a former contract with the Father, he was under 
 obligation to come down from heaven, and suffer and 
 die specially for every one that the, Father gave him. 
 And the Father was under equal obligation to the Son to 
 give him every one that was agreed upon. Therefore as 
 a man he made laws, and revoked them, and as a God 
 
156 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 he did the will of the Father, whose decrees are irrevoc- 
 able, or he would not be unchangeable. And in confirm- 
 ation of the whole matter, they have only to refer us to 
 the supplications of Jesus in his prayer to the Father, to 
 shut our mouths and deride our arguments. 
 
 "I have glorified thee on the earth : I have finished 
 the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, 
 Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the 
 glory which I had with thee before the world was." — St. 
 John vii. 4, 5. 
 
 They further say that if Jesus had asked for additional 
 glory, it would have been presumption of a grave mag- 
 nitude, and that he would have been asking the Father 
 for more than was given to him in the covenant of re- 
 demption ; and that by heirship none others were eu ti- 
 tled to the inheritance, except the heirs of promise that 
 had been given to the Son by the Father before the world 
 began ; and that the Son was perfectly happy before the 
 world began, being in full possession of all that the 
 Father had given him in body and spirit, he being com- 
 posed of the body of all the saints from the commence- 
 ment to the end of time ; and their body and spirit 
 being his body and spirit, he was perfectly happy with 
 this eternal union of body and spirit. And that by 
 agreement he and the Father created man as the natural 
 progenitor of the entire human family, and that all 
 along through time " as many as were ordained to eternal 
 life believed, " (Acts xviii. 48) by the Father inspiring them 
 with that belief, by sending forth the spirit of His Son 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 157 
 
 into their hearts, and quickening them into spiritual 
 life. " And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth 
 the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, 
 Father." — Gal. iv. 6. And that the Father draws them 
 to Jesus by his love. ' ' The Lord appeared of old unto 
 me, saying, yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting 
 love ; therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee. " 
 — Jer. xxxi. 3. And that they being his kinsmen in 
 flesh and spirit ; and that when this revelation is made 
 to them in their conviction, conversion and regeneration, 
 it is impossible for them to resist this love that is mani- 
 fest in them, in their transition from nature to grace. 
 And that this heavenly family having been made mani- 
 fest in the flesh through the medium of their natural 
 progenitor, Adam, and being deluged by him into sin. 
 
 " For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, 
 much more they which receive abundance of grace and 
 of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, 
 Jesus Christ." — Eom. v. 17. "For as by one man's dis- 
 obedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience 
 of one shall many be made righteous." — Rom. v. 19. 
 And that the heirs of promise were by nature like the 
 heirs of perdition, "and were by nature the children of 
 wrath, even as others." Therefore by special contract 
 there must be an offering for sin in the person of Jesus, 
 who knew no sin, he having lived in perfect obedience 
 to the law. He having satisfied the demands of the law 
 with his righteousness, the sins of the people, whom the 
 Father gave him, were imputed to Jesus, and they are, 
 
15S SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 or rather were, saved by an imputed righteousness, and 
 not by any righeousness of their own ; for the law re- 
 quires perfect obedience. " For all have sinned and come 
 short of the glory of God." — Eom. hi. 23. 
 
 And that from the fact of this eternal union of Christ 
 and his people, Jesus left the climes of glory by contract 
 with the Father, and made his advent into the world, and 
 took upon himself a body of flesh and blood. " For 
 what the law could not do, in that it was weak through 
 the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of 
 sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that 
 the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who 
 walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." — Eom. viii. 
 3, 4. They further contend that this heavenly family 
 were in Jesus Christ from all eternity, and that his 
 righteousness was imputed to them from all eternity in 
 the mind of the Father, and that in time this imputed 
 righteousness of Jesus is manifested to them, in their 
 conviction, conversion and regeneration, being born of 
 that incorruptible seed, or Spirit of God. Jesus therefore 
 prays the Father for the same glory that he had with 
 Him before the world was, and does not ask for any ad- 
 ditional glories, but would be perfectly satisfied with the 
 same glory, without any diminution or addition of the 
 souls of men. 
 
 Had Jesus conferred with the human sympathies of 
 flesh and blood, of which he had taken a part, he would 
 have saved the whole human family with an everlast- 
 ing salvation ; but he came down from heaven not to do 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 159 
 
 this, but to do the will of the Father ; and the Father's 
 will is, "That of all that He has given me I should lose 
 nothing."— St. John vi. 29. 
 
 Now, sir, if this doctrine be true, and all this heavenly 
 family that were elected and chosen in Christ before the 
 world began, and who are so sure to merge back into 
 Christ at the final consummation of all things, upon the 
 hypotheses of election and final perseverance, we must 
 acknowledge our utter inability to see the necessity of 
 preaching the gospel, and hence the fallacy of Jesus com- 
 manding his disciples, "Gk> ye into all the world, and 
 preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth 
 and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not 
 shall be damned." — St. Mark xvi. 15, 16. And we much 
 desire that you edify us on this particular subject. 
 
 Arminian's GrOD. — My friends, before I attempt a so- 
 lution of these questions, permit me to inquire, are these 
 things true ? Of course, with the present translation of 
 the Bible, these Old Baptists are well fortified, and with 
 their construction of its teachings they are able to re- 
 pulse our ablest divines. I can only tell you what these 
 Old Baptists teach, and give you their feigned reasons 
 for thus teaching, and then admonish you as to the great 
 plan of saving souls through the medium of my mission- 
 aries, whom I command and commission to go and carry 
 the gospel to those who are destitute of its glorious and 
 life giving principles, and who are dying and going to 
 endless perdition for want of more evangelical ministers, 
 who carry the very essence of the gospel in their hearts, 
 
160 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and lisp its soothing fragrance upon the lintles of the 
 hearts of all that will receive it upon the hypothesis of 
 our broad platform of free agency. Only hear their 
 quotations and interpretations : "For the preaching of 
 the cross is to them that perish foolishness ; but unto us 
 which are saved it is the power of God. For it is writ- 
 ten, and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will 
 bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. "—I 
 Cor. i. 18, 19. "For after that, in the wisdom of God, it 
 pleased God by the f oolishness of preaching to save them 
 that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the 
 Greeks seek after wisdom." — I Cor. i. 21, 22. 
 
 Now, sirs, these Old Baptists claim that this spiritual 
 understanding is only communicated to those who are al- 
 ready saved, and that they stood saved in the eternal 
 mind of God, and that they do not have to be saved, but 
 that they are saved already, and that in time this spirit- 
 ual wisdom is revealed to them, and that the preaching 
 of the gospel saves them from seductions and error in 
 this world, and that by obeying the mandates of the Mas- 
 ter, by following him into the liquid grave, and being 
 buried in the ordinance of baptism, and by being encir- 
 cled in the pales of the church as established by Jesus 
 Christ and his apostles. But that this salvation has 
 nothing to do with the eternal destiny of the chosen peo- 
 ple of God, but is the answer of a good conscience toward 
 God, in that of obeying His precepts and examples. And 
 that this kind of tuition was to the Jews a stumbling 
 block, and unto the Greeks, foolishness, (I Cor. i. 23) and 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 101 
 
 that my missionaries are to-day as were the national 
 Jews and Greeks, and are therefore spiritually blind. 
 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now 
 save us, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, 
 but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the 
 resurrection of Jesus Christ." — I Pet. hi. 21. And that 
 the preaching of the gospel is for the purpose of edifying 
 and saving the chosen people of God in this mode of ex- 
 istence, and has nothing to do with their final destiny, 
 and that all spiritual communications are made to a 
 quickened and spiritual people, by the omnipotent power 
 of God, independent of all the effort systems that have 
 ever been instituted by man. " But the natural man re- 
 ceiveth not the things of the Spirit of God ; for they are 
 foolishness unto him : neither can he know them, be- 
 cause they are spiritually discerned." — I Cor. ii. 14. 
 
 They further contend that it would have been unwise 
 in the Master to have sent His apostles to preach to a 
 people that had no spiritual discernment, and who were 
 dead to spiritual things ; and that it was not the office 
 of the preacher to preach spiritual lif e into them, as there 
 is no spiritual life in preaching ; but that the subjects of 
 God's amazing mercy must be made alive by the quick- 
 ening influence of the Spirit of God before they can hear 
 with that spiritual precision that is peculiar to God's 
 chosen and regenerated people. For the natural dead 
 cannot hear natural things, neither can they impart 
 natural life ; therefore the spiritual dead cannot hear 
 spiritual things, nor can they impart spiritual life nor 
 
162 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 hear spiritual things until spiritual lif e is communicated 
 to them ; and that the preaching of the gospel will not 
 put spiritual life into them, but that when life is com- 
 municated to them by the opera^jon of the Holy Spirit 
 upon their hearts, they are then able to see, hear and 
 understand spiritual things, and are then ready to re- 
 ceive and feast upon the preached word of Jesus Christ 
 and his inspired writers. They further teach that all 
 the epistles in the New Testament Scriptures are addres- 
 sed to the church of God, and to no one else, and that 
 Jesus Christ and his apostles would have been stupid to 
 have addressed it to those who were carnally minded. 
 " For to be carnally minded is death ; but to be spirit- 
 ually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind 
 is enmity against God ; for it is not subject to the law 
 of God, neither indeed can be/' — Kom. viii. 6, 7. And 
 that God has never set up but one church ; and there is 
 but one Lord, one faith and one baptism ; and that my 
 missionaries have many lords, many faiths, and many 
 baptisms ; and that none but the regenerated people of 
 God can understand the spiritual dealings of God upon 
 his chosen vessels of mercy. And that my missionaries 
 have no right to claim any of the spiritual dealings of 
 God upon His people as taught in the Scriptures, but 
 should hold strictly to the theory of salvation by works, 
 as the Scriptures will not allow "grace" and "works" 
 to be mixed in our eternal salvation. " And if by grace, 
 then is it no more of works ; otherwise grace is no more 
 grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace ; 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 163 
 
 otherwise work is no more work." — Kom. xi. 6. But 
 that when my missionaries are made willing by the 
 mighty influence of God's Holy Spirit to give up all the 
 institutions of the world for Christ's sake and follow 
 Christ in baptism, and be buried with Christ in baptism 
 by a legal administrator, and then follow the pattern 
 laid down by Christ and his apostles, in all the ordin- 
 ances of his established church, without taking anything 
 therefrom, or adding anything thereto, leaving all the 
 world and its concomitant vehicles of salvation, to be 
 held to and participated in by those of the world who 
 love the world and its institutions better than they love 
 the church of Christ, then my missionaries will be enti- 
 tled to the privileges of the church of Christ, and can 
 claim the Scriptures as their spiritual counselor, as well 
 as their moral, historical and literary guide. 
 
 For many years I have impressed the various orders 
 of my missionaries to slander the Old Baptists, in order 
 to carry our theory into its fullest effects ; and I still 
 think it best to misrepresent them. From the fact that 
 the Old Baptists teach that the Scriptures are only writ- 
 ten to the church, and that none but regenerated sinners 
 can understand the Scriptures in their spiritual bearings, 
 I have had my missionaries to positively assert from 
 their pulpits, to their various auditories, that the Old 
 Baptists positively refuse to preach to any except the re- 
 generated people of God, or what they are pleased to call 
 the church, on the pretext that the others could not see, 
 hear nor understand with that spiritual wisdom that is 
 
164: SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 peculiar to the people of God. But the Old Baptists 
 through all ages have positively declared this accusatiou 
 to be false, and that they are commanded to sow the 
 seed of the gospel broadcast, for they know not who the 
 people of God are, and could not presume to single them 
 out in a congregation ; but that God knows them, and at 
 His own appointed time His Spirit will accompany the 
 preached word, and that it will carry conviction to the 
 dead sinner's heart ; and that this divine inspiration is 
 like unto a light shining in a dark £>lace, illuminating 
 the dark understanding of the then poor, sin-polluted 
 sinner as he then sees himself to be, the reality of which 
 he had been completely dead to up to this time. But he 
 now cries out in the anguish of his soul, "Lord, be mer- 
 ciful to me, a poor, sin-polluted sinner. " And that his 
 very soul from thence until his deliverance is filled with 
 supplication to the throne of mercy for deliverance, until 
 the appointed time of the Father. And that when de- 
 liverance comes, supplications are turned into praises and 
 thanksgivings to God for thus delivering such a poor, 
 hell-deserving sinner as he sees himself to have been ; 
 and that the poor, delivered child of God's mercy is 
 ready to exclaim, that if justice had been meted out to 
 him instead of mercy, his portion would have been reck- 
 oned among the damned. But he rejoices to know that 
 while the epistles were written to the church, provisions 
 have been made through the preached word that "He 
 that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto 
 the churches." — Rev. iii. 13, 22, compared with Rev. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 165 
 
 xxii. 16. "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify 
 unto you these things in the churches." And these Old 
 Baptists say that preachers are not angels, but that 
 angels are messengers direct from heaven, conveying 
 these glad tidings to the hearts of the people composing 
 the churches, and that Christ's body is not divided, and 
 that these churches are separate organizations for the 
 sake of convenience, but are all the same body in Christ 
 Jesus, and that they preach the same doctrine, and have 
 the same Lord, the same faith, and the same baptism. 
 " For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth 
 and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church. For we 
 are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. 
 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, 
 and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be 
 one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concern- 
 ing Christ and the church. "— Eph. v. 29, 33. Therefore 
 these Old Baptists say that a man must be made willing 
 by the Spirit and power of God to leave all his pet soul 
 saving machineries as instituted by my missionaries, 
 and become willing to take Jesus Christ and his plan of 
 salvation for surety, without any of the common auxili- 
 aries that have ever been instituted by man, and if he 
 cannot do this, that it shows a manifest want of faith, 
 and that he is yet clinging to the traditions of his father 
 and mother, and not willing to risk Christ ; and that an 
 inspired apostle declares most positively, "They are of 
 the world, and the world heareth them ; " (but that) "we 
 are of God ; he that knoweth God heareth us. Hereby 
 
166 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. " — 
 I John iv. 5, 6. And that when my missionaries preach 
 the world hears them, because the unconverted have 
 no difficulty in hearing a man-pleasing preacher, because 
 their preaching is from natural reasoning ; therefore the 
 natural man receives it and feasts upon it, because it 
 feeds his natural and carnal propensities for self-aggran- 
 dizement. But to the spiritual minded Jesus has said, 
 " Blessed are your ears, for they hear," etc., and until 
 this blessing is given to us, we are but natural and have 
 no ability to hear or receive the things of the Spirit. 
 These Old Baptists further teach that Jesus has said un- 
 to the Father, " Father, the hour is come," etc. " I have 
 manifested thy name to the men which thou gavest me 
 out of the world : thine they were, and thou gavest them 
 me : and they have kept thy word. Now they have 
 known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me 
 are of thee. For I have given unto them the words 
 which thou gavest me ; and they have received them, 
 and have known surely that I come out from thee ; and 
 they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for 
 them; I pray not for the world, but for them which 
 thou hast given me ; for they are thine. And all mine 
 are thine, and thine are mine ; and I am glorified in 
 them." " I have given them thy word, and the world 
 hath hated them, because they are not of the world, 
 even as I am not of the world." — St. John xvii. 6, 7, 8, 
 9, 10, 14. 
 They actually challenge my missionaries to show 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 167 
 
 another denomination except the Old Baptists that 
 preach this doctrine as set forth in these texts of Scrip- 
 ture. They therefore claim that they are the only or- 
 ganized church of Jesus Christ under the canopy of 
 heaven, and verify their assertions by undeniable proofs, 
 and say that of ail people on earth, they are hated worse 
 (for contending for this doctrine, by those composing 
 what they are pleased to call the Antichristian churches) 
 than all other denominations combined, as did the world 
 hate the disciples and doctrines of Jesus Christ. 
 
 They say that those who accuse the Old Baptists of 
 not preaching to sinners, but to the church only, are 
 willfully misrepresenting the Old Baptists, provided they 
 have ever observed the tenets of the Old Baptists ; for 
 they have ever preached to sinners, whenever a door has 
 been opened unto them, to whoever may be present, 
 whether the sinner hear or not ; and that the reason why 
 the enemies to the doctrine of the Old Baptists accuse 
 them is because they dare not give the children's bread 
 to any but children, and withhold it from dogs, (Mark vii. 
 27.) And that what my missionaries mean by preach- 
 ing to sinners is to tell them to repent and believe the 
 gospel, and that they can repent and believe the gospel 
 if they will, upon their own volition or will ; and if they 
 do not, that they will be damned. The Old Baptists say 
 that Jesus and his apostles did not so teach, and that 
 there is not a word of gospel in such preaching, and that 
 such preaching is strictly false, and that repentance is as 
 much the gift of God as is the remission or forgiveness 
 
168 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 of sin. "In meekness instructing those that oppose 
 themselves, if God peradventure will give them repent- 
 ance to the acknowledging of the truth." — II Tim. ii. 
 25. " Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be 
 a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel 
 and forgiveness of sins." — Acts v. 31. 
 
 Eld. Beebe says, " Before I attempt to give you my 
 understanding of those passages to which you have call- 
 ed my attention, I wish to premise first, that all revela- 
 tion by the unerring Spirit of God to the saints is made 
 to their faith, not to their reason. We are called to walk 
 by faith, not by sight ; and to look not at the things 
 which are seen, but at the things which are not seen ; 
 for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things 
 which are not seen are eternal. And, ' Faith is the sub- 
 stance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not 
 seen.' — See II Cor. v. 7 ; iv 18 ; Heb. xi. i. What there- 
 fore God reveals to our faith is not to be doubted because 
 of the blindness of our mental powers to comprehend it. 
 The faith of Abraham impelled him to move forward, 
 not knowing whither he went. The carnal mind (even 
 of the Christian) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of 
 God ; for they are foolishness to the natural man (or 
 mind) ; neither can he know them, because they are 
 spiritually discerned. You cannot discipline or educate 
 
 Note. — We hope to be pardoned for using a few extracts that are in 
 point, from the facile and illustrious pen of the late Eld. Gilbert Beebe, 
 of N. Y., (in writing to a dear sister,) whose pen and inspired mind we 
 could not presume to equal, and whose demise we deplore. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 169 
 
 your reasoning powers so as to comprehend the things of 
 the Spirit ; for if that could be done, the conflict between 
 the flesh and the Spirit would cease. 
 
 You seem to think that if the Lord would give you 
 light on the one point, everything else would be clear; but 
 it is like the poetic idea of ascending the Alps ; as we 
 gain what had appeared to be the summit, still we find 
 Alps on Alps appearing. And finally we with the apostle 
 will, after all that we can know is known, have to ex- 
 claim, ' the depths ! ' The one perplexing point, if I 
 rightly understand you, is that on which we have con- 
 versed, namely, is the gospel to be preached to the un- 
 godly ? And is the preaching of it to them a means by 
 which they are to be quickened or born again? To 
 these questions I can only repeat my former replies. 
 The ' gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the 
 world, for a witness unto all nations ; and then shall the 
 end come.' — Mat. xxiv. 14. ' Go ye into all the world, 
 and preach the gospel to every creature.' — Mark xvi. 15. 
 Both the commission and the example of Christ and his 
 apostles show that the proclamation of the gospel is to be 
 made unrestrictedly to all, which justifies Christ's min- 
 isters in preaching wherever a door is opened, without 
 first excluding from the assembly all who are not born 
 again. And this preaching to a mixed multitude is not 
 to quicken them, but is for a witness : and what does it 
 witness ? It witnesses or discriminates between those 
 who are and those who are not born again ; for he that 
 hath an ear to hear will hear ; and as on the day of pen- 
 
170 SUPPOSED ESTER VIEW. 
 
 tecost, they will gladly receive the woiv ; while all who 
 are dead in sins will fail to receive it. It is a savor of 
 life unto life to them that are born of God, and of death 
 unto death to them that perish. Jesus has said. ' As the 
 Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so 
 the Son also quickeneth whom he will.' Is there any 
 other way or means by which the dead can be quickened \ 
 i Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my 
 word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (not shall 
 or may have) everlasting life.' — John v. 21, 24. The 
 hearing of the gospel, and the reception of it as a wit- 
 ness, proves that the hearer and recipient of it has already 
 passed from death unto life. Xone but God himself can 
 make the dead hear, as He made Lazarus hear ; and this 
 He will do, for He says, ' The hour is coming, and now 
 is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, 
 and they that hear shall live. 3 — John v. 25. Can any 
 other voice penetrate the dark domains of death, and 
 quicken the dead ? The gospel is glad tidings to the 
 meek. — Is. lxi. 1 ; Luke iv. 18. Is the preaching of 
 Christ's gospel or glad tidings to any others ? Tor unto 
 us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the 
 word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with 
 faith in them that heard. '— Heb. iv. 2. Faith is the fruit 
 of the Spirit. Do any who are dead then possess faith ? 
 Can any who are destitute of faith mix faith with the 
 hearing of gospel preaching ? If they cannot mix faith 
 with the hearing of the preached word, can they be pro- 
 fited by the preaching I VTe in preaching say to all men, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 171 
 
 as our Lord said to Nicodemos, ' Except a man be born 
 again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' But that 
 saying or preaching is not gospel or glad tidings to those 
 who would prefer to be saved in some other way. The 
 sovereignty of God. predestination, election, regen- 
 tion and the new birth, the preservation of the saints by 
 grace to eternal glory, with all promises, instructions. 
 admonitions, laws and ordinances of Christ, is gospel. 
 because it is glad tidings to the meek, to the heaven-bom: 
 but it is not gospel, because it is not glad tidings, to those 
 who hate it. It is not mixed with faith in those who 
 have no faith, and it cannot profit them." 
 
 These Old Baptists teach that anv other doctrine ex- 
 cept the doctrine of the Bible, as exemplified by Elder 
 Beebe. is the doctrine of Antichrist, and is therefore not 
 the gospel of Christ. Because the world loves all other 
 doctrines, and all other doctrines affiliate and nego- 
 tiate with the loved institutions of the world, and run 
 after them, and reject the doctrine of the Bible as 
 taught by the Old Baptists, because it is the doctrine as 
 formulated and preached by Jesus Christ and his apos- 
 tles. They say that the blessed Savior taught his dis- 
 ciples, when he was about to leave them. " Ye have not 
 chosen me. but I have chosen you. and ordained you that 
 ye shall go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should 
 remain ; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in 
 my name. He may give it to you. These things I com- 
 mand you that ye love one another. If the world hate 
 vou. ve know that it hated me before it hated vou. If 
 
172 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ye were of the world, the world would love his own ; but 
 because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you 
 out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." — St. 
 John xv. 16, 20. "I have given them thy word, and the 
 world hath hated them, because they are not of the 
 world, even as I am not of the world." — St. John xvii. 
 14. " Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." 
 — I John hi. 13. They say that through his apostles he 
 has taught them to "Have no fellowship with the un- 
 fruitful works of darkness." — (Eph. v. 11.) And that 
 these works of darkness are the religious institutions of 
 men that are so zealously contended for by the religion- 
 ists of the churches of Antichrist, and that when the 
 children of God become entangled with these religious in- 
 stitutions, and the church continues to hold them in 
 church fellowship, that she is unfaithful to Jesus Christ, 
 who has said, " Wherefore come out from among them, 
 and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the un- 
 clean thing ; and I will receive you, and will be a Father 
 unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith 
 the Lord Almighty." — II Cor. vi. 17, 18. And that such 
 church members are falling away from the pattern of 
 Christ, and are claiming citizenship with those who are 
 strangers to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and are therefore 
 disloyal to the mandates of the Captain of their salvation. 
 Elder Beebe says, in his letter to the sister, "But I will 
 attend to the passages to which you referred. First, 
 Ezekiel hi. 16, 22. ' Son of man, I have made thee a 
 watchman unto the house of Israel. ' Why not the house 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. L73 
 
 of Esau, and to everybody else ? Because the word of 
 the Lord confined his charge to the house of Israel ; and 
 if He had extended his watchcare to any other house or 
 people, he would have disobeyed the Lord. He was com- 
 manded to receive his instructions at God's mouth and 
 from no other source. The house of Israel was the 
 family of Israel, God's peculiar people; to that house, and 
 to no other, God sent His prophets. To them, and to no * 
 other people, He gave His law, as a covenant of works. 
 And if the prophet Ezekiel had attempted to apply that 
 law to the heathen nations round about them, and called 
 on the Gentiles to wrangle with Israel, to be circumcised, 
 and to worship in the temple at Jerusalem, he would 
 have transgressed the commandment of his God. The 
 law and the priesthood of the house of Israel differed 
 from that of any other people. That law provided that 
 when an Israelite had done wickedly, if he should turn 
 from his wickedness and do that which was lawful and 
 right, bring his sin offering to the priest, etc., he should 
 be restored to his place and privileges in that house, and 
 his wickedness should not be remembered. And if a 
 righteous Israelite should turn from his righteousness 
 and violate the law, his former righteousness should not 
 be remembered. The responsible position of Ezekiel, as 
 a watchman to the house of Israel, imposed on him the 
 duty to receive the word at the mouth of God, and bear 
 that word in every case precisely as he had received it 
 from God. Hence we find him bearing his messages to 
 Israel, and to her kings, her prophets and her priests, 
 
lfct SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 saying, ' The word of the Lord came unto me, saying/ 
 etc. These, or similar words, preceded almost every 
 message that he bore to them. As a watchman, he was 
 to stand in the watch-tower, and watch for the word of 
 the Lord ; and when the word of the Lord came to him, 
 declaring either good or evil to the house of Israel, or to 
 any who were of that house, he was to deliver his mes- 
 sage faithfully, or he was charged with the consequence 
 resulting from his negligence or disobedience. 
 
 Now the house of Israel under the law was a type of 
 the gospel church under law to Christ ; and the prophet 
 was a type of, first, Christ as the prophet and bishop of 
 his people, and secondly, of those who are called of God 
 to the gospel ministry, to take the oversight of His flock. 
 And the law which Israel was under was typical of the 
 law and discipline of the gospel church. The law of 
 Christ requires the gospel watchman to speak to the 
 house of God, the church, the true and anti-typical house 
 of Israel ; and the charge upon them is to bear no 
 message that they have not received at the mouth of God, 
 and faithfully to deliver or bear every word to the 
 church, and to all who are of the household of God, just 
 as they have received it from God ; and if they add to it, 
 God will add to them the plagues which are written ; or 
 if they take from it, God will take from them their part 
 out of the book of life, and out of the holy city. — See 
 Eev. xxii. 18, 19. Life and death by the law, to the 
 children of Israel, prefigured gospel standing and fellow- 
 ship in the gospel church, or expulsion therefrom by the 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 175 
 
 laws of the kingdom. If a gospel minister, as a watch- 
 man on the walls of Zion, departs from the word of the 
 Lord, fails to declare his word faithfully to the saints, 
 or if he adds to the word of the Lord, preaching what he 
 has no ' Thus saith the Lord ' for, whatever his standing 
 has been, the laws and the discipline of the house of God 
 will expel him from the holy city (the church) and erase 
 his name from the registry of the living in Jerusalem. 
 
 Death to the offending Israelite, under the law of 
 Moses, answers to or is typical of exclusion from fellow- 
 ship under the gospel. I cannot dwell as fully on every 
 point as I would wish, without making my letter too 
 long. 
 
 1 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am 
 pure from the blood of all men ; for I have not shunned 
 to declare unto you all the counsel of God,' (Acts xx. 
 26, 27,) to which you call my attention, appears to me 
 both confirmatory and illustrative of what I have writ- 
 ten on Ezekiel hi. 16, 22. Paul assured the Elders of the 
 gospel church that he had not shunned to declare all the 
 counsel of God. As a faithful watchman he had faith- 
 fully delivered to those Elders and to the churches every 
 word that he had received from the Lord, and therefore 
 stood acquitted from the blood of all who in the churches 
 should disregard the counsel of the Lord, and lose their 
 standing in the church thereby. He was not responsible 
 for their heresy or disorder, for he had faithfully warn- 
 ed them, and with tears. And now, as he knew that he 
 should see these Elders no more, he takes the opportun- 
 
176 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ity to exhort them to do as he had done ; for he recog- 
 nized them also as watchmen, having been made over- 
 seers of the flock of God, (but of no other flock,) to feed 
 the church of God, which He hath purchased with His 
 own blood. 
 
 As watchmen they were to look out for those things 
 which he knew would take place after His departure, 
 and to faithfully warn the church of God to beware of 
 wolves, and also to be on their guard against those of 
 their own selves, who should rise up speaking perverse 
 things, to draw away disciples after them, ' Therefore 
 (he charged those Elders as watchmen,) watch, and re- 
 member, that by the space of three years I ceased not to 
 warn every one night and day with tears.' And yet he 
 knew that some of these very Elders whom he had so 
 faithfully warned would not heed his warnings; but he 
 was pure from their blood, or from responsibility for their 
 apostasy. But I cannot find here any admonition to the 
 Elders to divide their watchcare, and bestow a part of 
 their labor outside of the church of God, which He has 
 purchased with His own blood, nor to try to persuade 
 those grievous wolves, which should come, to change 
 their wolfish nature, and become harmless lambs and 
 sheep. 
 
 A few words now on the last passage you referred me 
 to : 'To open their eyes, and to turn them from dark- 
 ness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, 
 that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance 
 among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. ' 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 177 
 
 ■ — Acts xxvi. 18. This text beautifully expresses, in 
 strong figurative words, the work to which God called 
 Paul, and I believe it also shows what is the work of the 
 gospel ministers generally. Let us see. ' To open their 
 eyes ;' that is the eyes of those Gentiles to whom the 
 Lord sent him. Now what would be the effect of open- 
 ing the eyes of a dead man ? It certainly can be done. 
 Experiments by galvanism have been made on dead 
 bodies, causing their eyes to open, and other movements ; 
 but can a dead person see any better with the eyes open, 
 than when they are shut ? But apply the figure, as it 
 is evidently intended, to those unto whom God has given 
 spiritual life. When Jesus quickened Lazarus from the 
 dead, and called him out of his grave, he came forth a 
 living man ; but a napkin was on his face, and had to be 
 removed before he could see. We cannot think the re- 
 moving of the napkin while he was dead would have 
 made him see. Your own case, my dear child, is in 
 point. I have every assurance that you have passed 
 from death unto life ; but you complain that there are 
 some things you cannot yet see ; you have been laboring 
 long to understand the true meaning of these Scriptures 
 which you have called my attention to. You say it 
 seems to you that if the Lord would give you light on the 
 one point, everything else would be clear. Now you 
 certainly have eyes to see, or you would never have seen 
 your lost condition, or the salvation that is in Christ 
 Jesus. As the apostle says, Eph. i. 18, 'The eyes of 
 your understanding being enlightened, that ye might 
 
178 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 know what is the hope of his calling,' etc. The great 
 object of the preaching of the gospel is to edify and en- 
 lighten the living children of God ; and as when onr 
 eyes are closed, the light being thereby excluded from 
 them, they require to be opened that they may see and 
 enjoy the light, so Paul was sent to the Gentiles to open 
 their eyes. He did not open the eyes of all the Gentiles, 
 but those to whom God sent him. For God had a people 
 among the Gentiles, who were sitting in darkness, 
 surrounded by idolatry, and he was sent to enlighten 
 them, and i to turn them from darkness to light.' God's 
 living children are frequently involved in darkness ; but 
 when the glorious light of the gospel shines even unto 
 them, the preaching of the word dispels the darkness, 
 and being delivered from the power of darkness, they 
 gladly turn from it and have no fellowship with the un- 
 fruitful works of darkness, but walk as children of the 
 light. 'And from the power of Satan unto God.' It 
 is said of God's children, that they ' were some time 
 darkness ; but now are ye light in the Lord.' But as the 
 light of the gospel is life (' In him was life, and the life 
 was the light of men, ') so until they were quickened no 
 preaching could possibly enlighten them, nor turn them 
 from darkness to light. And in the darkness of death, 
 in which they all were by nature involved, they were in 
 the power of Satan, led captive by him at his will. But 
 being now born of God, they have eyes to see, and ears 
 to hear, and hearts to understand ; but still they require 
 the gospel ministry to open to their view the things of 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. It9 
 
 the kingdom. The Gentile converts to whom God sent 
 Panl required the instruction which was sent them from 
 God, who is the Father of lights, to open their eyes, en- 
 lighten their understanding, and deliver them from the 
 errors they had cherished, and so deliver them from 
 Satan's power, and lead them in the way of truth and 
 righteousness. God had forgiven their sins and put 
 them away by the one offering of Christ ; but the joyful 
 reception of that forgiveness could not be felt or known 
 until the eyes of their understanding were opened to 
 know what was the hope of their calhng. When en- 
 lightened by the Spirit, and instructed by the preached 
 word, instead of continuing longer to commend them- 
 selves to God by the works of the law, they gladly re- 
 ceive the word, which assures them that all the pro- 
 visions and promises of the gospel are unto them, and to 
 their children, and to all them that are afar off, even as 
 many as the Lord our God shall call, and then do they 
 receive the forgiveness of their sins from him who is ex- 
 alted a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel 
 and the forgiveness of sins. This gift of repentance and 
 remission of sins, being given to them as the children of 
 God and heirs of immortality, is a part of their inheri- 
 tance and establishes their interest in common with all 
 the sanctified in all the fullness of the inheritance of the 
 saints in light. They that are sanctified, consecrated, 
 set apart to be saints and heirs of this divine inheritance, 
 are so distinguished by faith, which is in God." 
 
 I have now shown to you, my friends, from the facile 
 
180 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and illustrious pen (as these Old Baptists are pleased 
 to call it) of one of the leading disciples of his day, the 
 culminations of this heretical doctrine that they so viv- 
 idly bring to bear upon the minds of those that they 
 claim have been so powerfully illuminated by the Spirit 
 of God shining into their hearts, making that great 
 specialty that has been such a terror to me and my mis- 
 sionaries through all the days of antiquity up to the 
 present ; and their eloquence is almost equal to the elo- 
 quence of Paul, who was also one of their great standard 
 bearers, and their arguments are almost as conclusive as 
 Paul's were when he was arraigned before King Agrippa 
 and got permission to speak in his own defence, and 
 said, "Whereupon, King Agrippa, I was not disobed- 
 ient unto the heavenly vision." — Acts xxvi. 19. And 
 they are equally bold in their assertions, regardless of all 
 the intimidations and mockery that my missionaries can 
 throw around them. 
 
 I now see that we will have to add many new inven- 
 tions to our missionary mills, before we will be able to 
 check their onward march to victory ; and even then I 
 fear that my disciples will not be able to compete with 
 them. Their forces are truly small, but their soldiers are 
 valiant and well disciplined, or they could never stand be- 
 fore such an array of musketry as surrounds the vaults 
 of my missionaries, and our cause is doomed to go down 
 into the habiliments of disgrace and ruin forever, should 
 we suffer such a defeat from such stupid intellects and 
 inferior numbers. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 181 
 
 And as our old system of straw beds in altars, to pro- 
 tect the clothing of our finely attired convicts, while 
 shouting and rendering praises to me and my mission- 
 aries, has become stale and obsolete to some extent in 
 its effects, I would advise you to follow the very in- 
 teresting examples of my beloved disciples, Maj. Penn, 
 Moody and Sankey, and others, whom I have impressed 
 with the importance of a religious circus. This idea 
 was conceived from the multitudes that attended the 
 amusement circuses of Messrs. Eldrid, Eobinson Eey- 
 nolds and others, of the United States and the Old World, 
 and the vast amount of income that was incident to 
 their menageries and side shows. And you well know 
 that our motto is, not to be beaten at anything that will 
 foster to the salvation of souls, and the support of my 
 missionaries. These old ideas of straw pens, altars, 
 camp-meetings, protracted meetings, anxious benches, 
 etc., as instituted by one of my most lovely disciples, to- 
 wit, John Wesley and his disciples, and afterwards 
 adopted in part by one of my proudest modern disciples of 
 Missionary Baptist notoriety, to- wit, Andrew Fuller and 
 his disciples, has been a great lever in the salvation of 
 many souls. But as machinery grows old and stale, new 
 wheels and leverage must be added thereto, if we would 
 keep pace with the age. I would therefore advise you, 
 as soon as you can accumulate a sufficiency of money, 
 that you purchase a large cloth tent, made of heavy 
 ducking, that will cover near or quite a half -acre of land, 
 in which to hold your revival meetings, and at the same 
 
182 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 time have you several thousand circulars struck, and 
 send them in advance of you, stating when you will be 
 at a certain town or community, and that you will con- 
 tinue the meeting from day to day until all the material 
 who perchance can be induced or hoodwinked and cast 
 into our missionary hopper, and ground through our 
 missionary mill, and made into confirmed missionary 
 Christians. After which you will move to some other 
 locality ; not forgetting, however, to take up several 
 collections while you stay ; for you well know that every 
 business that is worth following must be self-sustaining, 
 and the good people will ever be ready to pay you liber- 
 ally for the vast amount of spiritual and moral good 
 that you have done in their community. Another good 
 idea is, that when you send your circulars in advance of 
 you, publishing your appointments, that you select by ap- 
 pointment some live Christian, within the limits of the 
 prospective meeting, who will circulate a very feeling 
 subscription among the good people, who are always 
 zealous in their efforts to have the people saved ; and 
 get as many obligations to have the meeting and minis- 
 try sustained as possible. This will always answer as a 
 kind of base, upon which the minister can act freely. 
 Beside which, it will give publicity to the meeting, and 
 cause many poor souls to come out and embrace salva- 
 tion, that would otherwise be lost. And, of course, the 
 more excitement you can get up, and the greater the 
 display that you make, the more attendance and converts 
 you will have. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 183 
 
 In your revival meetings, you must not preach upon 
 the doctrines of the New Testament. If you do, you will 
 destroy the interest of the meeting. But you must 
 preach upon the subject of practical religion, and con- 
 clude with exhortation, anxious benches, and proposi- 
 tions in every conceivable shape that you can put them, 
 so as to beguile those who are too timid to be a hind- 
 rance to the cause of Christianity. And if, perchance, 
 there are some present who are too stubborn to accede to 
 your propositions, and who contend as do these Old Bap- 
 tists, that your system is the system and religion of Anti- 
 christ, which system they are admonished in the New 
 Testament to touch not, nor handle, lest they become 
 partakers of your evil deeds, all such you can at once 
 brand with infidelity, and say to them that they are 
 there as monuments or pillars of stone, for the hind- 
 rance of the gospel, and that their influence will be reck- 
 oned against them on the day of final retribution. Per- 
 haps in another decade the above stratagem in soul sav- 
 ing will become inert, as has Mr. Wesley's and Mr. Ful- 
 ler's plan, at which time the emergency of the case will 
 suggest something new that will in all probability carry us 
 through many years, without our having to fall upon the 
 fogy pattern of Jesus Christ, his apostles, and these Old 
 Baptists. I would suggest that in all of your religious 
 exercises you watch the anxious benches, and those who 
 are affected in the congregation, and especially the 
 youths, many of whom are exceedingly timid in mat- 
 ters of religion, and send the old sisters and gray-headed 
 
184 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 sires, who are zealous of good works, to pray with and 
 admonish them ; and if they succeed in wilting them 
 down, and extract from them tears of contrition, you can 
 then with complacency have the old sires and matrons 
 take them by the hand and escort them to the altar or 
 to the anxious benches, where you can with impunity 
 tell them to repent of their sins, and that they can repent 
 if they will, and if they will come to Jesus right, which 
 is entirely within their power, that you will pledge them 
 your soul for theirs if he does not bestow the blessing. 
 Of course, many of them will find out that if the New 
 Testament is true you have miserably lied to them ; but 
 you know that it is only true in part, but you must pre- 
 tend to believe it all. But such as impeach your honesty, 
 unless they are well skilled in the Bible, which is not 
 common with the young, you will soon be able to repulse, 
 by making them believe that they themselves are the 
 liars, by telling them that they did not come to the altar 
 or to the anxious benches right ; that there was some 
 secret sin that they did not give up, that they could have 
 given up if they would. But if you happen to meet with 
 one who understands and accepts the present translation 
 of the Bible, who tells you that repentance is a gift, 
 freely bestowed, and that it is not merited on account of 
 good works, which gift, according to apostolic teachings, 
 he cannot secure by works of obedience to the law, and 
 that according to the teachings of the New Testament 
 this gift is freely bestowed at a time when it was least 
 expected, and of course unsought for, my advice to you 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 185 
 
 would be to let that personage alone, or laugh at his 
 ignorance in a jocular way, and find some excuse to get 
 into other society as soon as you can, or he or she, as the 
 case may be, will expose your cause and injure your busi- 
 ness. I would further advise, that when you have been 
 successful in securing several mourners at your revival 
 meetings, that you select several of the most pious and 
 sanctified Christians to take charge of these mourners, 
 and put them under rule, and not suffer them to associate 
 with the unconverted, until their conversion has been 
 made complete. These pious Christians, of course, must 
 talk and pray with these mourners, and must not fail to 
 have them attend each hour's service at the church or 
 canvass, and they must constantly persuade them that 
 their sins are forgiven, and that they feel sure that it is 
 their duty to join the church ; and that " he that know- 
 eth the Master's will, and doeth it not, shall be beaten 
 with many stripes," and that if they will discharge their 
 duty by connecting themselves with the church, they 
 will experience a peace of mind that they have never be- 
 fore realized. About this time it will be the duty of the 
 minister to see them, and confirm all that has been said, 
 by rehearsing his own experience, and making it harm- 
 onize with the travail of the new convert. And of a 
 truth my friends, nine out of ten, when all these mani- 
 pulations are brought to bear upon them, will acknow- 
 ledge that they have been changed, and will without fur- 
 ther hesitancy join the church. And then for these Old 
 
186 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Baptists to say that our missionary mills will not grind 
 out good Christians, is all homespun and bosh. 
 
 It is further advisable in your revival meetings that 
 you have a few old sisters who are well disciplined in 
 exhortation, shouting and singing praises to your God, 
 and a few old brothers who are gifted in offering up 
 eloquent and exciting prayers ; and when the excitement 
 is in full blast, your minister or some zealous old brother 
 should relate, by way of exhortation, some miserable 
 death-bed story of some wretched dying infidel or re- 
 ligious skeptic, and contrast the scene with the death- 
 bed joys of some pious old Christian, and point out in 
 sympathetic strains of eloquence, the miseries of the one 
 and the joys of the other, and then appeal to the dying 
 congregation to come to the altar and anxious benches 
 where prayer will be offered in their behalf to a throne 
 of grace for the pardon of their sins ; and that if they 
 fail to embrace the golden opportunity that is then 
 offered to them in securing their eternal salvation, it 
 may be that it will be too late, and that before another 
 opportunity is offered they may find themselves in the 
 awful habiliments of a never ending hell. 
 
 About this moment the sympathetic tears will be trick- 
 ling from every eye in the audience whose heart has 
 been touched. And you should lose no time in sending 
 the old sisters and brothers through the auditory to hunt 
 out the timid mourners and conduct them to the altar 
 and anxious benches for prayer to be offered for the sal- 
 vation of their poor afflicted souls. And the minister 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 187 
 
 should lose no time in branding those who would 
 not yield to the excitement, with infidelity and skep- 
 ticism. 
 
 During this excitement, some poor mourning soul 
 whose nervous temperament predominates all the other 
 temperaments of the physical organism, will in all prob- 
 ability swoon or go off into a religious trance, and have 
 to be borne away, to give nature a chance for resuscita- 
 tion. This, my friends, is one of the most powerful, 
 conclusive evidences to an audience of the genuineness of 
 our cause ; for there really seems to be something in it 
 that is supernatural, and it acts more powerfully upon 
 the human senses than the most gigantic freak of leger- 
 demain in a sleight-of-hand show. 
 
 Under all of these convincing circumstances of the 
 justness of our cause, if there should be any of the be- 
 lievers or disciples of these old predestinarian, tight-fisted, 
 iron-jacket, hard-shell, forty-gallon, brown-jeans, close- 
 communion, vulgar, feet-washing, always-right, and 
 everybody-else-wrong, kind of Baptists present, they 
 will just simply wilt under our influence. And should 
 they attempt to disabuse the minds of the people, as they 
 would term it, and claim that our conversions are a freak 
 of hallucination, or mental delusion, produced from ani- 
 mal excitement or human sympathy, and that it is des- 
 titute of the seasoning efficacy of the grace of God, 
 and attempt to quote any of the old apostles, prophets, 
 or Jesus Christ, to prove their position, and to tell you, 
 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, 
 
188 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 as in all churches of the saints " (I Cor. xiv. 33); and that 
 it is reproachful for the old sisters to exhort and pray 
 aloud in the churches of the saints, " Let your women 
 keep silence in the churches ; for it is not permitted unto 
 them to speak ; but they are commanded to be under 
 obedience, as also saith the law. • And if they will learn 
 anything, let them ask their husbands at home ; for it 
 is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I 
 Cor. xiv. 34, 35). But that God suffered such confusion 
 in the churches of Antichrist ; so that all the saints who 
 have been taught in the school of heaven, and who have 
 been under the discipline and tuition of the true and 
 faithful ministers of Jesus Christ ; will be able to see 
 the discrepancy between those who serve their God in a 
 tumult, and those who serve God in quietude, as becom- 
 eth all genuine Christians. But public opinion is so 
 fully convinced in our favor that nothing but a super- 
 natural, power could convince them, and that no such 
 miraculous conversions, as their eyes have witnessed in 
 our religious exercises, could be otherwise than genuine. 
 And these old fogies, in many instances, will actually 
 shrink from speaking their sentiments, because public 
 opinion will frown them down, and hiss them from 
 society. You have science, intellect, numbers and pub- 
 he opinion on your side, and have nothing to fear, ex- 
 cept their so-called Bible quotations ; and with your in- 
 genuity you can always pervert and evade them in such 
 a way as to keep public opinion in your favor. 
 When your meeting is over, it will be the duty of some 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 189 
 
 live, energetic Christian to canvass the town or commu- 
 nity in which you have held the meeting, with a very 
 feeling and sympathetic appeal to the good people, by 
 way of subscription, in the interest of the treasury of 
 the Lord, to pay the minister an extra fee for the great 
 sacrifice that he has made, in leaving his wife and dear 
 ones, and the churches of his home, who required all 
 his time and energies, but that he had torn loose from 
 them for a short time, and had come a long distance, to 
 save the inhabitants of the town or conmiunity. Of 
 course you will get several dollars, halves and quarters, 
 many of which will be given reluctantly ; but the people 
 will give them in order to keep pace with society and 
 public opinion. 
 
 I have now advised you as best I could, in a systematic 
 programme of saving souls, but do not intend to limit 
 you in means and instrumentalities. Should you at any 
 time see that new wheels or new cogs to the wheels of 
 our missionary mills would foster to the salvation of 
 souls, you will at once introduce them ; for I verily be- 
 lieve that the time is approaching when our present, sys- 
 tem will become stale, and will fail to sustain my mis- 
 sionaries. At which time I would advise that you re- 
 quire and accept admission fees, before you allow the 
 people seats inside our canvas or missionary circus. Of 
 course many persons will pay it, rather than take the 
 chances of losing their souls. 
 
 Many of our fine city churches require rents for pews 
 now, which is the same thing in substance. According 
 
190 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 to the present laws of our land and nation, it would be 
 unlawful for us to receive admission fees for any kind of 
 menagerie without paying taxes, and of course some evil 
 one would take advantage of the law and expose our 
 cause before the courts, and in all probability prove that 
 our fees were for selfish motives, instead of being in- 
 tended for the advancement of Christianity. And should 
 they use the law of the present New Testament to prove 
 the correctness of true Christianity, they would inflict 
 heavy penalties upon us. Before you adopt this plan 
 you had best send lobbyists to your legislatures and have 
 them manipulate with the members, and repeal the law 
 in such a way as to allow a religious circus to exhibit 
 without taxation. 
 
 These Old Baptists may howl and claim that your 
 theory is not authorized by the teachings of the New 
 Testament, and is therefore in violation of the laws of 
 high heaven, and repulsive to all saints who have been 
 educated in the school of heaven. But how was it pos- 
 sible for the writers of the Old and New Testaments to 
 have known the exigencies of the religion of the present 
 age? It might have answered every purpose in their 
 day, but positively fails to meet the indications of the 
 nineteenth century. 
 
 Much of what they have written is left in such a form 
 that it has a tendency to confuse instead of enlighten 
 my missionaries as to the proper means to be used in 
 the conversion and salvation of the people of the present 
 age. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 191 
 
 These Old Baptists may contend that the Old and New 
 Testament Scriptures are exactly in harmony, and that 
 they were intended to govern all the saints, and that 
 they are indeed their monitor or guide, and will be a com- 
 pass to all regenerated saints, from the commencement 
 to the end of time ; and that any person or persons, or 
 corporation of Christians, or so-called Christians, who 
 transcend or fall short of their prescribed metes and 
 bounds, are guilty of a trespass against the laws of high 
 heaven, and are therefore subjects of punishment, as 
 prescribed by the New Testament. The Christian who 
 is a violator of the law is punished by afflictions in many 
 ways, and repentance, but is finally saved through the 
 atonement and blood of Jesus Christ. The so-called 
 Christian who has never been regenerated and born 
 again is also punished with many trials and afflictions, 
 but without that godly sorrow or repentance that need- 
 eth not to be repented of, and are lost or banished 
 from the peaceful presence of God. They will further 
 tell you that the pattern is left upon record, from the 
 first of Genesis to the last of Eeveiation, and that the 
 pattern forbids the Christian or man ol God from doing 
 anything in a church capacity, or otherwise in the ser- 
 vice of God, that is not specified in the word of God, but 
 commands all the regenerated people of God to do all 
 that is written in the New Testament, as a church ordin- 
 ance or Christian duty. They will commence with Abra- 
 ham, and defy you to prove that Abraham ever went be- 
 yond the limits of the Lord. They then refer you to 
 
192 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Moses, who obeyed the Lord and stopped, except on one 
 occasion, when he spoke in anger to the children of 
 Israel, for which he was severely punished. Noah did pre- 
 cisely as God commanded in building the ark, and went 
 no further. They will carry you to all the old partri- 
 archs, and defy you to prove that they ever went fur- 
 ther than the Lord commanded, without receiving the 
 chastisement annexed to disobedience. They will then 
 call your attention to the old prophets, to wit, Isaiah, 
 Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc., and ask you for heaven's 
 sake to show them where it is upon record that they 
 wrote or did anything by way of serving God, only as 
 they received instructions from the angel of the Lord, 
 and then waited patiently for another order from God. 
 They will tell you that Jonah refused to obey the com- 
 mands of God, and for a punishment he was caused to 
 be swallowed by a whale, and lay in the belly of hell for 
 three days, and was vomited up on dry land, and was 
 made willing, even anxious, to obey the Lord by preach- 
 ing to the Ninevites. They will refer you to the fifteenth " 
 chapter of 1st Samuel, where Samuel was sent by the 
 Lord to Saul, who was to be anointed king over Israel, 
 saying to Saul, " Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly 
 destroy all that they have, and spare them not ; but 
 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and 
 sheep, camel and ass." — I Samuel xv. 3. And when 
 Saul returned to Samuel he reported, " I have performed 
 the commandment of the Lord. And Samuel said, What 
 meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 193 
 
 the lowing of the oxen which I hear ? " — I Samuel xv. 
 13, 14. Saul rendered an excuse, and said that these fat 
 animals were brought along by the people, and were not 
 destroyed, that they might be sacrificed to the Lord. And 
 for Saul's disobedience the kingdom of Israel was rent 
 from him, and was given to one of his neighbors, who 
 was more obedient to the commands of the Lord. They 
 will also tell you that these fat animals that were brought 
 along, in violation of the commands of the Lord, under 
 the pretence of a sacrifice to the Lord, that were to have 
 been utterly destroyed by Saul, are a type of the fat things 
 that my missionaries carry with them, under the pre- 
 tence of sacrificing them to the Lord. And instead of 
 their idols being named oxen, sheep, camels, asses, etc., 
 they are called fat salaries, foreign missions, home mis- 
 sions, executive committees, publishing societies, theo- 
 logical schools, Sunday schools, together with all the 
 other institutions and commandments of men that are 
 taught for doctrines, which the Lord has commanded 
 shall be utterly destroyed. " Touch not, taste not, han- 
 dle not ; which all are to perish with the using ; after 
 the commandments and doctrines of man." — Col. ii. 21, 
 22. "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for 
 doctrines the commandments of men." — Mat. xv. 9. And 
 that for carrying these fat things, and teaching these 
 false doctrines, my missionaries shall be rent from the 
 kingdom of Israel, (the church) as was Saul. And that 
 the lowing of the oxen is a type of the bellowing of the 
 nobles of my missionaries for more money to be sacri- 
 
194 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ficed to the Lord in the building up of giant religious 
 monopolies, in the shape of orphan homes, sectarian 
 schools, theological schools, etc., of which they them- 
 selves are to be the instructors ; who tell you that their 
 lives and all their energies shall be spent in said institu- 
 tions, for the salvation of the people and their posterity, 
 that would otherwise be lost. And that the bleating of 
 the sheep typifies the more congenial voice of the smaller 
 fry of my missionaries, in their importunities to the 
 laity and friends for more means and instrumentalities 
 to be offered as a sacrifice to the Lord to save the Amale- 
 kites (heathen) from endless perdition, whom the Lord 
 has commanded that they shall be utterly destroyed. 
 
 They will then refer you to the tenth chapter of 
 Jeremiah and the sixth chapter of Amos, and con- 
 demn all your instrumental church music, and accuse 
 you of serving your God mechanically, instead of fol- 
 lowing the pattern of serving God in spirit, by sing- 
 ing songs of praise with the spirit and with the under- 
 standing. Your decorated altars and organs they will 
 call idols, and they will prove that the use that you make 
 of them is typified in the Scriptures as idolatrous wor- 
 ship, and that the true Israel of God has ever received 
 punishment when they presumed to transcend the pattern 
 of God in their zeal to gratify the arrogance of human 
 pride. 
 
 They will then carry you to the book of Exodus, and 
 show you where God caused the children of Israel to 
 borrow the jewels of the Egyptians, which jewels they 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 195 
 
 did not return to their owners, and that God suffered the 
 Israelites to carry the jewels across the Eed Sea, that He 
 might punish them with their borrowed jewels, when 
 they presumed to disobey the commands of Moses, who 
 received instruction from God. And the children of Is- 
 rael murmured against Moses, "And Aaron said unto 
 them, Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears 
 of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters and 
 bring them unto me." — Exodus xxxii. 2. And when 
 Aaron had made the jewels into a molten calf, and pre- 
 pared an altar, they worshiped before the idols, and call- 
 ed them the gods of Israel. And for a punishment G-od 
 caused Moses to burn the calf and grind it into powder ; 
 and he strewed it upon the water, and made the children 
 of Israel drink of it. And that this punishment upon 
 national Israel for their disobedience to the commands 
 of God as a nation, through the medium of Moses, is a 
 type of the punishment of spiritual Israel (church) when 
 she disobeys the mandates of heaven, through the med- 
 ium of Jesus Christ, who is the antitype of Moses. And 
 that all the true Israel of Christ's spiritual kingdom who 
 have at any time connected themselves with the Anti- 
 christian kingdoms (false churches), who by affiliating 
 with those kingdoms are bidding them God-speed by par- 
 taking of their evil deeds, has and will ultimately have 
 to drink deep of the bitter waters that are poisoned with 
 the powdered jewels that they have borrowed of the na- 
 tions of Antichrist, (false churches.) After reciting 
 many other allegories and examples of punishment upon 
 
196 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 national Israel for disobedience to the commands of God, 
 prefiguring the punishment of spiritual Israel for their 
 disobedience to the mandates of heaven, they will carry 
 you to the New Testament, (which is a complete testi- 
 mony of the fulfillment of the prophecies and forerun- 
 ners in the old Testament,) and defy you before high 
 heaven to show them where it is upon record in the 
 sacred volume of truth that the apostles or the disciples 
 of Jesus Christ ever transcended or fell short of the pre- 
 scribed commands of the great Captain of their eternal 
 salvation, without receiving the punishment annexed to 
 their disobedience ; but in all things did precisely as com- 
 manded by the King of kings, before their work was re- 
 ceived and accepted by the great Kedeemer of souls. 
 
 They will tell you that in the fourth chapter of St. 
 Matthew, where the devil was trying to tempt Jesus, 
 "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt 
 not tempt the Lord thy God." (Claiming himself as the 
 devil's God ; and, indeed, the devils in hell are subject 
 to his commands, and obey him.) " Again, the devil 
 taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and 
 showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the 
 glory of them, and said unto him, All these things will 
 I give thee if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then 
 said Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan ; for it is 
 written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him 
 only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him ; and 
 behold, angels came and ministered unto him." But 
 that my missionaries have accepted the propositions of 
 

 
 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 197 
 
 the devil, and have affiliated with the kingdoms of this 
 world, (false churches and other institutions that are not 
 authorized by Jesus Christ) and are actually worshiping 
 the grandeur, arrogance and wealth of these kingdoms, 
 more than the church or pattern of Jesus Christ, and 
 are destitute of that Christian grace or fortitude that 
 would say, "Get thee hence, Satan;" and are running 
 after other gods, ignoring the command of high heaven, 
 " Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only 
 shalt thou serve." 
 
 They further teach that my missionaries bind heavy 
 burdens upon the people, and refer you to the following 
 Scripture, "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous 
 to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders ; but they 
 themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 
 But all of their works they do to be seen of men : they 
 make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders 
 of their garments, and love the uppermost rooms at 
 feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues." — St. Mat. 
 xxiii. 4, 7. 
 
 They further teach that the Old School or Primitive 
 Baptists are the only organized body of saints under the 
 canopy of heaven that follow the precise pattern of 
 Jesus Christ, without any variableness or shadow of 
 turning, in all of the church ordinances and Christian 
 duties, as prescribed in the New Testament Scriptures, 
 without any additions or diminutions of so-called church 
 ordinances and Christian duties. "Go ye, therefore, 
 and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the 
 
198 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teach- 
 ing them to observe all things whatsoever I have com- 
 manded you ; and lo, I am with you always, even unto 
 the end of the world. Amen. 1 ' — Mat. xxviii. 19, 20. 
 
 And that there is no inducement that could be offered 
 that would cause them to observe anything as an auxili- 
 ary to assist Christ in the designs of his gospel, or to 
 further the accomplishment of the great Author of their 
 eternal salvation. And should they presume to do so, 
 that they would be doing violence to the commands of 
 high heaven ; for they are admonished in the 18th and 
 19th verses of the last chapter of Eevelation, neither to, 
 add to nor take from under a heavy penalty. They 
 must therefore preach truth and expose error. Preach 
 the gospel of Jesus Christ and nothing else. Preach 
 Jesus Christ and him crucified, and nothing more. 
 Preach repentance to sinners, and stop. Baptize those 
 who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ ; who believe that 
 Jesus shed his blood especially for those whom the 
 Father gave him before the world began, and no one 
 else. Receiving as candidates for baptism those who 
 can give a satisfactory reason of their hope in Christ 
 Jesus, and no one else. 
 
 Rejecting all who are not willing to submit to the ordi- 
 nance of baptism by immersion, as taught by Jesus 
 Christ. Requiring all to be baptized by a regularly or- 
 dained minister of the gospel, and rejecting the baptism 
 of all so-called ministers of the gospel who are in disorder 
 by affiliating with the kingdom of Antichrist, (false 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 199 
 
 churches and the institutions of the world.) Also requir- 
 ing all the saints who are in the fellowship of the church 
 to partake of the Lord's supper, wash the saints' feet, 
 look after the poor of the flock, and care for the necessi- 
 ties of their pastor in a proper way. Sing hymns of 
 praise to God, and in their prayers thank God for His 
 many blessings and mercies that He has bestowed upon 
 them, and implore Him for a continuation of the same, 
 together with all things that He has enjoined upon them 
 to pray for ; and that His will be done in all things, and 
 not theirs ; and that it would be mockery in the sight of 
 God for them to dictate to God what they would have 
 Him do for them, as do my missionaries. And that the 
 commandment of Jesus Christ and his apostles to go 
 and preach the gospel, forbids them from preaching any 
 other doctrine than the doctrine of salvation by grace, 
 independent of all the auxiliaries that have ever been in- 
 stituted by the devices of men or devils. " For by grace 
 are ye saved, through faith ; and that not of yourselves ; 
 it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should 
 boast."— Eph. ii. 8, 9. 
 
 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach 
 any other gospel unto you than that which we have 
 preached unto you, let him be accursed." — Gal. i. 8. 
 
 These Old Baptists will actually mock you, by telling 
 you that you do not believe the Scriptures, and that if 
 you did you would be ashamed to adopt their teachings, 
 and that you are too vain to be governed by their ordin- 
 ances and duties ; and that many of you are too dignified 
 
200 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 to reproach the elegance of your raising by submitting 
 to the lowliness of the examples and precepts of Jesus 
 Christ's teachings ; and that you are compelled to per- 
 vert the meaning of the Scriptures to accommodate your 
 devices in evading the ordinances and duties as pre- 
 scribed by Jesus Christ and his apostles. And that if 
 this was not the case, and you were actually children of 
 God's mercy and grace, you would not be willing to per- 
 vert the Scriptures, but would be willing, yea, anxious, 
 to go down into the water, even before a multitude, and 
 be buried with Christ in baptism, according to the pat- 
 tern of Jesus Christ. You would also be willing to 
 humble yourselves in the very dust of humility, and lay 
 aside your garments, and gird yourselves with a towel, 
 and wash the saints' feet, as exemplified by Jesus Christ 
 and his apostles, as well as to partake of the emblems 
 of his broken body and spilt blood. " Whosoever 
 therefore shall be ashamed of me and my words, in this 
 adulterous and sinful generation, of him also shall the 
 Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of 
 his Father with the holy angels." — Mark viii. 38. 
 
 " And it came to pass in those days that Jesus came 
 from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in 
 Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, 
 he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove 
 descending upon him."— Mark i. 9, 10. " Know ye not 
 that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ 
 were baptized into his death ? Therefore we are buried 
 with him by baptism into death ; that like as Christ was 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 201 
 
 raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even 
 so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we 
 have been planted together in the likeness of his death, 
 we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." — 
 Kom. vi. 3, 5. " Buried with him in baptism, wherein 
 also ye are risen with him through the faith of the oper- 
 ation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."— 
 Col. ii. 12. " And he commanded the chariot to stand 
 still : and they went down both into the water, both 
 Philip and the eunuch ; and he baptized him." — Acts 
 viii. 38. 
 
 They will tell you that there is no intellect that is so 
 tardy or bounding, who has been sufficiently humiliated 
 in their travail from nature to grace, whose human pride 
 has been killed to the common devices of human ingen- 
 uity, who does not know that the above quotations were 
 exemplified in baptism by immersion. And that it 
 would have been absurdly miraculous, and the idea 
 ridiculous, for Jesus to have come to John and demanded 
 baptism at his hands in the river Jordan, when sprink- 
 ling or pouring would have been equally valid ; and if 
 so, water could have been procured for such purposes at 
 any of the common watering places of f amilies or from 
 the small tributaries by the wayside. But it seems to 
 have required much water ; hence, how foolish it would 
 have been for Jesus to have gone down into a river of 
 water to get such a pittance of water as is required in 
 sprinkling and pouring. "Then cometh Jesus from 
 Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But 
 
202 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of 
 thee, and comest thou to me ? And Jesus answering, 
 said unto him, Suffer it to be so now ; for thus it becom- 
 eth us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 
 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway 
 out of the water {not from the water) ; and, lo, the heav- 
 ens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God 
 descending like a dove, and lighting upon him." — Mat. 
 hi. 13, 17. 
 
 And that the humble saint of God must be buried with 
 Him in baptism, planted with Him, together with the 
 likeness of His death ; and that this baptism, burying or 
 planting, is a type of His death, burial and resurrection; 
 and that it is impossible for sprinkling or pouring to be 
 baptism, for the subject of baptism cannot be buried or 
 planted by this process, but must be immersed, in order 
 to correspond with the antitype. And that they cannot 
 feel themselves to be baptized until they have been buried 
 in baptism after the pattern of Christ. And that Jesus 
 Christ and Paul testify of but one baptism. " One Lord, 
 one faith, one baptism." — Eph. iv. 5. But that many of 
 my missionaries testify of three modes of baptism ; 
 sprinkling, pouring and immersion ; and they claim them 
 all as the pattern of Jesus Christ. This being the case, 
 Jesus was baptized three times, of which we have no re- 
 cord. And that Jesus testified to Mcodemus, " Except 
 a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he camiot enter 
 into the kingdom of God." — John iii. 5. And they ren- 
 der it thus : That being born of the Spirit of God is an 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 203 
 
 evidence to the child of God, of their eternal union with 
 Christ. " He that belie veth on the Son of God hath the 
 witness in himself. " — I John v. 10. Hence this new man 
 has a bright hope and promise of eternal life. " Who- 
 soever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for His seed 
 remaineth in him ; and he cannot sin, because he is born 
 of God." — I John hi. 9. But that being " born of water," 
 independent of being " born of the Spirit," has nothing 
 to do with eternal life, but is the door "into the king- 
 dom of God," which is Christ's church militant. " The 
 like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save 
 us, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but 
 the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the 
 resurrection of Jesus Christ." — I Pet. hi. 21. And that 
 it is impossible to be born without you are first enveloped 
 in the substance out of which you are born. And as 
 baptism is one of the ordinances of Christ's kingdom, 
 (church,) it is obligatory upon every regenerated child of 
 grace to be buried with Christ in baptism, by a legal ad- 
 ministrator, before they can possibly claim church fel- 
 lowship with the baptized believers in Christ's church ; 
 and that one of the strongest evidences of being a fol- 
 lower and believer in Christ's kingdom is, "If ye love 
 me, keep my commandments." — John xiv. 15. And the 
 plain inference is that you must not, in a church sense, 
 keep any other commandments. "But in vain they do 
 worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments 
 of men." — Mat. xv. 9. 
 
 After bringing forth all this array of testimony in favor 
 
204 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 of immersion being the only authorized mode of baptism, 
 and that Jesus and his apostles taught no other mode, 
 and that no ordained minister of Christ's kingdom dare 
 practice or receive any other, without violating one of 
 the ordinances of high heaven, for which a just punish- 
 ment would inevitably follow, and result in the mortifi- 
 cation and humiliation of the people of God, they will 
 then mock you by asking you for heaven's sake to show 
 them the chapter and verse in the New Testament where 
 sprinkling or pouring was practiced or recognized by 
 Jesus or any of his apostles as gospel baptism, or the door 
 into Christ's kingdom or church ; but that in every in- 
 stance where sprinkling or pouring is mentioned in the 
 New Testament it typifies or illustrates something that 
 is foreign to gospel baptism. They will positively chal- 
 lenge our system of baptizing infants, when it is patent 
 to every intelligent thinker that if there are any persons 
 under the canopy of heaven who are in that state of 
 innocency arid freedom from sin and the common 
 vices that are incident to riper years, which evils the 
 law and church requires total abstinence to secure 
 eternal salvation, it is surely the infant, of whom Jesus 
 hath said that the kingdom of heaven is composed ; 
 and then to deny them the right of baptism, is absurd and 
 ridiculous ; for such innocency is the composition and 
 element of heaven, and is so regarded by Jesus himself. 
 ' 4 Then were there brought unto him little children, 
 that he should put his hands on them, and pray ; and 
 the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, suffer little 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 205 
 
 children, and forbid them not, to come unto me ; for of 
 such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands 
 on them, and departed thence." — Mat. xix. 13, 16. But 
 these Old Baptists will defy you to show them the chap- 
 ter and verse where Jesus or any of his apostles ever 
 baptized one of them, and are presumptuous enough to 
 undertake to prove that our interpretations of these 
 Scriptures are unwarranted perversions of the word of 
 God, and that the true meaning of them is foreign to 
 baptism. They will undertake to prove that these little 
 children that Jesus exhibits in these Scriptures are a 
 type of the regenerated children of God, who have been 
 humiliated in their travail from nature to grace ; and have 
 been made by the mighty influence of the Holy Spirit to 
 become as helpless and dependent upon Jesus for suc- 
 cor and help at a time of need when the poor child of 
 God had exhausted all his own strength, and had to give 
 up all hope of salvation from his own efforts, and had 
 fallen prostrate at the feet of Jesus, never to rise again 
 in his own strength, becoming as helpless and depend- 
 ent upon Jesus as the infant is upon its natural mother 
 or nurses for natural sustenance ; and that an infant is 
 the most helpless and dependent of all others of the 
 animal species, and has to be raised by its natural mother 
 or nurses to its mother's breast to receive natural food ; 
 and that in like manner the heaven-born child is equally 
 helpless and dependent upon Jesus and his church for 
 spiritual food, and has to be raised by Jesus in the par- 
 don of his sins, and given that spiritual nourishment 
 
206 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 through the medium of the church aud her servants, 
 (ministers,) independent of the effort of the new born 
 babe of Christ ; which spiritual food is necessary to the 
 full development of spiritual manhood ; and that unless 
 you become thus like little children, you cannot enter 
 the kingdom. ' % And Jesus called a little child unto him, 
 and set him in the midst of them, and said, verily I say 
 unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little 
 children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little 
 child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.*' — 
 Mat. xviii. 2, 5. " Whosoever shall not receive the king- 
 dom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." 
 Mark x. 15. 
 
 But you know that we baptize infants in lieu of circum- 
 cision, and that circumcision was instituted by Abraham 
 and Moses, under the auspices of God ; and that Moses 
 was a type of Christ ; and that when Christ came into 
 the world he fulfilled the law of Moses, and set up a new 
 dispensation, and instituted baptism as the antitype of 
 circumcision ; and we dare not neglect the baptism of 
 our infants, without hazarding their eternal salvation ; 
 because circumcision was positively enjoined upon all 
 Israel, who was at that time the favored people of God, 
 and was a type of His church. And we feel under equal 
 obligations to christen or initiate our children into his 
 church, by applying to them the holy ordinance of bap- 
 tism, leaving the visible marks of Christ's church upon 
 them, as was left upon the national babes of Israel, in 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 207 
 
 the circumcision of the Jews, under the law of Moses. 
 But these Old Baptists will ask you, in the name of 
 heaven's God, why do you baptize female infants or 
 female adults ; when there is not a verse or chapter in 
 the Bible that would even feign to establish the incon- 
 sistency of female circumcision ? And therefore your 
 presumed antitype for circumcision is as false as its 
 founders are inconsistent. But national Israel was really 
 a type of spiritual Israel. "For they are not all Israel 
 which are of Israel." — Rom. ix. 6. Showing conclus- 
 ively that they did not all belong to spiritual Israel that 
 were circumcised and belonged to national Israel ; but 
 that circumcision was a national mark put upon them to 
 distinguish them from other nations, and prevent them 
 from marrying, amalgamating, or affiliating with other 
 nations, as prescribed by God to the patriarchs and 
 Moses his law-giver, and has nothing to do with gospel 
 baptism. And that since the coming of Christ the anti- 
 type of this national mark of circumcision is and will be 
 written in the hearts of all spiritual Israel, and is mani- 
 fested in their daily walk and godly conversation, and is 
 as patent to the man of God as was the mark of circum- 
 cision to the law givers of national Israel. "For he is 
 not a Jew which is one outwardly ; neither is that cir- 
 cumcision which is outward in the flesh ; but he is a Jew 
 which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the 
 heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter ; whose praise 
 is not of men, but of God."— Rom. ii. 28, 29. And that 
 in a gospel or church sense they are commanded by 
 
208 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW, 
 
 Jesus Christ and his apostles not to marry, amalgamate, 
 nor affiliate with any other nations, (false churches and 
 other institutions of men not authorized by God,) but to 
 hold themselves aloft to any of the ordinances of men 
 that are not specifically authorized in the word of God, 
 lest they become partakers of their evil deeds. ' ' If there 
 come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive 
 him not into your house neither bid him God speed ; for 
 he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil 
 deeds." — II John 10, 11. In bidding them God speed 
 they subject themselves to the punishment that would 
 be inflicted by the law governing the church or spiritual 
 Israel, as typified by the punishment of those who 
 violated the law of national Israel. 
 
 They will assert to you that infants are not subjects of 
 baptism ; and that baptism hinges upon belief ; and 
 belief hinges upon testimony ; and that faith is the result 
 of belief ; and that the infant is not capacitated to receive 
 testimony and belief; neither can they act faith, and there- 
 fore cannot be received into the church upon the testimony 
 required of the saints. ' 'But sanctify the Lord God in your 
 hearts; and be ready always to give an answer to every 
 man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you, 
 with meekness and fear. "—I Pet. iii. 15. And that infants 
 cannot do this, and that the sprinkling and pouring, as 
 instituted for baptism, and the manner of receiving in- 
 fants into the church, is all mockery, not being author- 
 ized by God. "And He said unto them, Go ye into all 
 the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 209 
 
 that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that 
 believeth not shall be damned.'' — Markxvi. 15, 16. They 
 contend that these apostles did go into all the then in- 
 habited world, and preached the gospel to every creature. 
 And that all to whom G-od gave spiritual ears, spiritual 
 eyes and a circumcised spiritual heart, did believe, and 
 were baptized by immersion into the church of Jesus 
 Christ. And that it is not upon record where the apostles 
 baptized any except those who did believe. And that 
 infants were wholly incompetent to receive the testimony 
 required to believe. And that the preaching of the 
 apostles was only a testimony or witness to those who 
 did believe after they had received the testimony of be- 
 lief through the operation of the Spirit, giving them 
 spiritual discernment, so that they could believe and be 
 baptized according to the command given by the Savior ; 
 and therefore infants are excluded from gospel baptism. 
 " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but 
 he that believeth not shall be damned." — Mark xvi. 16. 
 And, also, that even baptism is " not the putting away 
 of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good con- 
 science toward God." Therefore there is no eternal sal- 
 vation in baptism, consequently they say that our theory 
 would damn or send to endless perdition all infants who 
 have not arrived at the age of moral accountability. 
 And that we are compelled, according to these Scriptures, 
 to damn them for unbelief , because they are incompetent 
 to believe, and that baptism cannot secure for them eter- 
 nal salvation. And that the command to preach the 
 
210 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 gospel to every creature was not designed to be heard by 
 natural infants, nor was it designed to be heard in a 
 gospel sense by larger children nor adults, except those 
 to whom God has given spiritual discernment. And 
 therefore my missionaries must be wanting in that spirit- 
 ual discernment that is peculiar to the saints of God. 
 They say that you have accused them of teaching that 
 there are infants in hell not a span long ; and they con- 
 tend that the accusation is strictly false, and that the 
 Old Baptists are the only organized body of saints under 
 the heavens that preach a positive infant salvation. They 
 say that the infant was saved in the covenant of grace 
 between the Father and the Son before the world began, 
 and upon the same principle of God's amazing mercy as 
 was the covenanted adult. And that God has quit sav- 
 ing and damning souls thousands of years ago, and that 
 all who are saved or lost were saved or lost in the coven- 
 ant between the Father and Son before the world was. 
 And all the lost have been lost from the commence- 
 ment of time, and that all the saved have been saved 
 from the commencement of time ; and that there are no 
 times with God, but is ever to-day with Him. "But, 
 beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day 
 is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand 
 years as one day." — II Pet. hi. 8. And that all things, 
 Present, past and future, were as much in open view to 
 God at the commencement of time as they are to-day, or 
 as they will be at the final consummation of all things. 
 " Remember the former things of old; for I am God, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 211 
 
 and there is none else ; I am God, and there is none like 
 me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from 
 ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 
 my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." — 
 Is. xlvi. 9, 10. 
 
 Consequently He is not at present on any baby- saving 
 expedition, nor is He losing babies for want of belief or 
 baptism, but is manifesting His love and mercy toward 
 them all along through time, as it seemeth good unto 
 Him, and is taking them home to Himself at the time of 
 His own good pleasure. But that they believe that they 
 are regenerated in the hour and article of death ; but 
 they do not know this, it being one of the secrets known 
 to God. "The secret things belong unto the Lord our 
 God ; but those things which are revealed belong unto us 
 and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words 
 of this law." — Deut. xxix. 29. But that there is one 
 thing that they do know ; that there is one case put 
 upon record where there was one infant who, owing to 
 a powerful transition, leaped for joy in his mother's 
 womb. "And it came to pass that when Elizabeth 
 heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her 
 womb ; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost ; 
 and she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed 
 art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy 
 womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of 
 my Lord should come to me ? For, lo, as soon as the 
 voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe 
 leaped in my womb for joy." — Luke i. 41, 45. They say 
 
21*2 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 that they cannot see why, if God would communicate 
 His Spirit to a babe in foetal life, that He should not be- 
 stow the same blessing upon babes in infantile life. They 
 further contend that it cannot be proven from Bible testi- 
 mony, that one of the heirs of perdition, one whom the 
 Father did not covenant with his Son to give him, ever 
 died in infancy, but that the command was given that 
 the tares should not be plucked up, lest the wheat might 
 be destroyed ; but they were to remain with the wheat 
 until harvest, and were not to be destroyed in infancy : 
 but at maturity they were to be gathered* and burned. 
 
 " The field is the world : the good seed are the children 
 of the kingdom : but the tares are the children of the 
 wicked one." — Mat. xiii. 38. But you well know, my 
 friends, that our motto is, Not to be beaten ; and if we 
 could ever succeed in convincing the youths of this, or 
 even the next generation, that our system of baptizing 
 infants is correct, and that infants are really subjects of 
 gospel baptism, and induce all orthodox churches to adopt 
 our system, we would then have all the infants of each 
 generation baptized at eight days old, according to the 
 pattern of circumcision, of which baptism is the anti- 
 type. We would then wipe out this old fogy believer's 
 baptism, the result of which would be to annihilate their 
 inconsistencies, and their present Bible, as translated by 
 King James. We would then be able to establish by 
 vote at the ballot box laws that would sustain our 
 Christian institutions and support our ministry. 
 
 Because we would all see eye to eye, and understand 
 
SUPPOSED INTER VIE W. 213 
 
 the Scriptures alike, and would have no trouble in legal- 
 izing our local option and prohibition laws ; we could 
 impose our Sunday school literature and catechisms upon 
 all the children alike, and force them and their refractory 
 parents to accept our system of religion. And, in fact, 
 all our Christian and benevolent institutions could be 
 legalized, of which institutions the present Bible is silent 
 upon ; in consequence of which these Old Baptists are 
 ever harping upon our innovations upon primitive doc- 
 trine. 
 
 " Then they that gladly received His word were bap- 
 tized ; and the same day there were added unto them 
 about three thousand souls." — Acts ii. 41. Xow, my 
 friends, all intelligent people know that it would have 
 been impossible for Peter to have baptized three thou- 
 sand souls by immersion in one day, and that of necessity 
 he was compelled to have sprinkled the water upon them 
 in groups, to have accomplished such a wonderful work 
 in so short a time. We will suppose, for the sake of 
 reason and argument, that Peter did baptize them by im- 
 mersion, and that he used twelve hours in the day ; he 
 would have baptized one about every fourth of a minute; 
 and if he used the twenty four hours in baptizing them, 
 he baptized one about every half minute ; and you know 
 that it requires more time than this to repeat the shortest 
 ceremony that could be used in a legal gospel baptism; 
 Besides this, Peter would not have had time to obey any 
 of the laws of health, and his physical system would have 
 completely given way for want of rest and nourishment. 
 
21-1 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 But these Old Baptists will tell you that the eleven 
 apostles were there, (Judas having abandoned them in the 
 betrayal of the Lord,) all of whom were legal adminis- 
 trators of the ordinance of baptism, and were actively 
 engaged in the work of the ministry. And should they 
 have used twelve hours in the day, they would have bap- 
 tized about two hundred and seventy-two persons each, 
 and would have consumed about two and three-fourths 
 minutes with each. And if they had used twenty-four 
 hours, they would have baptized one about every five 
 and a half minutes. See Luke x. 1 . And you will see that 
 the Lord appointed seventy others and clothed them with 
 the same authority. And should they, or any part of 
 them, have been present, it would have made the task 
 much lighter, and no person's health o.r constitution 
 Wi >ald have been injured, and much time would have 
 been given for preaching and exhortation. After all this 
 systematic reasoning and mathematical research, they 
 will tell you that those three thousand souls that were 
 added to the disciples on that memorable occasion were 
 not necessarily compelled to have been baptized on the 
 day of their belief or conversion, and that the text does 
 not say that they were baptized on that same day, but 
 that they were added to the disciples, by gladly receiving 
 Peter's words ; and that baptism could have easily been 
 deferred until another time, giving Peter ample opportun- 
 ity to have baptized all of them, without violating any 
 of the laws of health. But you know that Jesus Christ 
 would not have instituted such indecencies as immersion 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 215 
 
 and feet washing, as church ordinances and Christian 
 duties, and impose it upon the female members of his 
 church, without making some provision for a substitute 
 under certain circumstances. Hence the necessity of 
 sprinkling timid females and children, for baptism, and 
 washing the saints' feet at private houses. Baptism by 
 immersion and feet washing before the multitude would 
 not only jeopardize their health, but would reflect upon 
 their refinement. To say the least of it, the practice 
 would be very humiliating to their refinement and pride, 
 if they had been well raised and educated in the higher 
 circles of life. There are but few elegantly refined ladies 
 who would respect the testimony of Jesus Christ if it 
 could be proven beyond cavil that he did institute such 
 ridiculous practices as these, and enjoin them upon the 
 female members of his church. 
 
 For the sake of argument, we will admit that Jesus 
 did institute feet washing, and that he did enjoin it upon 
 his disciples. Do you not know that he would have had 
 more respect for females than to have imposed such in- 
 decent duties upon them before the multitudes, when the 
 same act of kindness could have been bestowed upon the 
 poor, afflicted saints at any of their private houses ? We 
 could not presume to accuse Jesus of introducing any 
 such humiliating practices. In the name of common 
 sense, what good could it possibly do to humiliate Chris- 
 tians in this way when these Old Baptists themselves 
 admit that there is no eternal life in either of these vul- 
 gar practices ? And I cannot believe that Jesus actually 
 
216 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 requires any such things of females. You will now 
 please excuse me for referring you to the Scriptures, and 
 the arguments of these Old Baptists, for they propose to 
 " Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." — I 
 Thes. v. 21. After the apostles had partaken with Jesus 
 of the Lord's supper, ' ' He riseth from supper, and laid 
 aside his garments, and took a towel, and girded himself . 
 After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to 
 wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel 
 wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon 
 Peter : and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash 
 my feet ? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do 
 thou knowest not now ; but thou shalt know hereafter. 
 Peter saith unto him, thou shalt never wash my feet. 
 Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no 
 part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my 
 feet only, but also my hands and my head." — John xiii. 
 4, 10. "If I, then, your Lord and Master, have washed 
 your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For 
 I have given you an example, that ye should do as I 
 have done to you." — John xiii. 14, 15. " If ye know these 
 things, happy are ye if ye do them." — John xiii. 17. 
 While they contend that these examples given to them 
 by Jesus himself, have nothing to do with their eternal 
 salvation and spiritual union with Christ, and are there- 
 fore not essential to their eternal salvation, but that the 
 adoption of them in Christ's church is essential to Chris- 
 tian duty, and that the salvation of Christ's church mil- 
 itant is greatly dependent upon them, in that of exem- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 217 
 
 plifying the examples of Jesus himself, thereby preserv- 
 ing the precise pattern of Jesus, without any additions 
 or diminutions, so that his church may be preserved un- 
 sullied from all the devices and traditions of men or 
 devils ; and that when his true disciples have done this, 
 they have a conscience that is void of offence toward 
 God ; and should they at any time fail to see the real im- 
 port of the ordinance or duty, they can but do as did 
 Peter, when the Lord told him, ' 'What I do thou knowest 
 not now, but thou shalt know hereafter ; " and therefore 
 with patience wait for knowledge ; nevertheless they 
 comply with the example, as Jesus bids you, it being es- 
 sential to Christian duty and church preservation ; and 
 that they must emphatically do this as true followers of 
 Christ, regardless of all the humilition of their natural 
 pride or worldly aspirations. " For I have given you an 
 example, that ye should do as I have done to you." And, 
 " If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." 
 Now, sirs, these Old Baptists will actually contend 
 that Jesus imposes these humiliating church ordinances 
 and Christian duties upon his disciples, to humble them 
 and kill them to the love of their human pride, boastful 
 devices and worldly aspirations ; and that in their trans- 
 ition from nature to grace he makes them loathe them- 
 selves on account of their human pride and unworthi- 
 ness, because of the spirit of the flesh waging war upon 
 the Spirit of Christ, in consequence of which the spirit 
 of the flesh revolts at a compliance with his church ordi- 
 nances and Christian duties. 
 
218 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 If these Old Baptists could only prove that there were 
 others of the disciples present besides the twelve apostles 
 who engaged in feet washing with Jesus, they would 
 most assuredly have a better showing for their practice. 
 But you well know that they cannot do this ; neither 
 can they show that there were females engaged in it 
 with Jesus. Therefore we can deride them, by defying 
 them to prove that there were any who participated in 
 feet washing except Jesus and the twelve apostles, and 
 that there was no command given for the continuance 
 or preservation of feet washing as one of the duties of 
 the church. But they will tell you that your idea of 
 none participating except Jesus and the twelve apostles 
 is strictly inferential. For in the example set by the 
 Savior he expressly says that he commenced washing 
 the disciples' feet, and does not say that he commenced 
 washing the apostles' feet ; and that he finally approach- 
 eel Peter, and that Peter was so humiliated with such an 
 act of lowliness on the part of his Lord that he told him, 
 " Thou shalt never wash my feet." But when the Sav- 
 ior told him that if he did not wash him he could have 
 no part with him, Peter being so enthused in the minis- 
 try with the love of God in his heart, that rather than 
 be excluded from the ministry and his apostleship, he 
 cried out, "Not my feet only, but my hands and my 
 head." And that in further proof of the practice having 
 been transmitted to the church, and that males and 
 females all participated in it, and that it was obligatory 
 upon all the saints who are in the fellowship of the 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 219 
 
 church, they will refer you to the following Scriptures, 
 where the widow's age and aptness to do the things per- 
 taining to godliness, are to be considered before she can be 
 recognized as one of the counselors of Christ's church ; 
 but the younger widows are exempt from the council of 
 the church officers, although they may be members in 
 good standing. "But the younger widows refuse; for 
 when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, 
 they will marry." — I Tim. v. 11. And that sisters who 
 have husbands, are to be governed by their husbands, 
 and their husband's voice is to be heard in the church's 
 council, and they are to learn of their husbands at home. 
 " And if they will learn anything, let them ask their 
 husbands at home ; for it is a shame for women to speak 
 in the church." — I Cor. xiv. 35. And that the widow 
 who is presumed to be of sufficient firmness to belong to 
 the council, must be threescore years old, and at that age 
 she would not be apt to reject the ordinances and duties 
 of Christ's church, to partake of the superfluities of the 
 world. "Let not a widow be taken into the number 
 under threescore years old, having been the wife of one 
 man ; well reported of for good works ; if she have 
 brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she 
 have washed the saints' feets, if she have relieved the 
 afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good 
 work."— I Tim. v. 9, 10. 
 
 Now, sirs, they claim that the above quotation of 
 itself is sufficient testimony to prove that all the saints, 
 both male and female, are positively under obligations 
 
220 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 as followers of Christ to engage in feet washing, when 
 ordered by the church of their membership. And that 
 there is no denying the fact, without openly declaring 
 your infidelity as non-believers of the Word of God. 
 
 Then in confirmation of all the facts that they claim 
 to have proven, they will assert to you that there is not 
 an instance upon record, where the original disciples re- 
 fused to obey every ordinance and Christian duty as pre- 
 scribed by Jesus Christ or any of his authorized apostles ; 
 but in every instance, when the command was given, 
 the disciples obeyed, without adding to or taking from. 
 And that they, as the genuine disciples of Jesus Christ, 
 are to-day under the same restrictions as were the dis- 
 ciples of old, and dare not transcend the limits of their 
 Lord by affiliating with any of the auxiliaries and inven- 
 tions of men, as instituted by the various orders of my 
 missionaries. 
 
 • • For I testify unto every man that heareth the words 
 of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto 
 these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that 
 are written in this book. And if any man shall take 
 away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God 
 shall take away his part out of the book of life, and ou 
 of the holy city, and from the things which are written 
 in this book." — Rev. xxii. 18, 19. 
 
 Red & Co.— Our Lord and our God ! Our whole hu- 
 man organisms are made to quake with fear and trem- 
 bling, and our teeth are made to gnash within our 
 months, when we are led to think that peradventure 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. N 221 
 
 these Scriptures may be true, as quoted in the last chap- 
 ter of Eevelation. For we know, Lord, that we 
 have added many new inventions, and have feigfted to 
 take from the words of the prophecies of the Bible many 
 of the ordinances and duties, that are left upon record 
 by Jesus Christ and his apostles as the ordinances and 
 duties of the church. And we have most assuredly, 
 God, presumed upon the ignorance of Jesus Christ in 
 these additions and diminutions of his holy commands, 
 and we have feigned to believe that there were many of 
 the institutions and inventions of men that would foster 
 to the salvation of souls, and have added these institu- 
 tions and commandments of men to our church organi- 
 zations, and have regarded them as auxiliaries in the 
 accomplishment of the designs of the gospel, which 
 things we must acknowledge that we have added, to 
 accommodate our convenience and pride, thinking that 
 there would be no harm in a small digression, if our mo- 
 tives were pure. But in this quotation we are positively 
 forbidden to make any of these digressions ; for the God 
 of these Old Baptists has said, that if we take from or 
 add to the things that are written in the Bible, He would 
 take from us our part of the book of life, and out of the 
 holy city. 
 
 But if these Old Baptists are correct in rendering the 
 true meaning of these verses, we are much relieved in 
 our feelings ; because we have always believed that these 
 verses positively taught apostasy, and that the whole 
 human family had a special interest in the blood of the 
 
2'2*2 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Lamb, if they would only avail themselves of the means 
 of an offered salvation ; and that if they did not, God 
 would take away their part out of the Lamb's book of 
 life, because they refused to obey the commands of God, 
 and be saved upon the broad platform of a universal 
 atonement. 
 
 But they render it very differently. They - claim that 
 there is no one addressed in the New Testament except 
 the church or believers, and that these verses are noth- 
 ing more than a warning to the people of God ; and that 
 if members of the church should amalgamate or affiliate 
 with any of the devices or institutions of the world, the 
 Word of God would take their names from the church 
 book, and put them out of the holy city (church), and 
 that it has no allusion to the Lamb's book of life. And 
 that for their disobedience the plagues written in the 
 Bible should be added unto them, and that they should 
 not be allowed any of the privileges of the church, but 
 should be held in disrepute by the church, and made to 
 live upon husks in a spiritual sense, while in this rebellion 
 against the commands of their Lord. 
 
 In proof of their correctness they will tell you that the 
 15th verse of the same chapter says, "For without are 
 dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, 
 and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a he;" 
 warning the people of God to stay within the limits of 
 their Lord, and not to become entangled with the devices 
 and abominations of the world. And that the next two 
 verses say, "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 223 
 
 uuto you these things in the churches." And that the 
 angel did not testify to any except those in the churches. 
 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let 
 him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is at hirst 
 come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of 
 life freely." Now, sir, they say that none are com- 
 manded to come to the church or to Christ in these 
 verses, except those to whom God had given the spirit 
 and the desire to come, by quickening them into spirit- 
 ual life, giving them that spiritual ear, spiritual eye and 
 circumcised spiritual heart, causing them to thirst after 
 righteousness, giving them the will to take the water of 
 life 'freely. ''For it is God which worketh in you both 
 to will and to do of His own good pleasure." — Phil. ii. 13. 
 They further testify that Jerusalem is a type of this 
 holy city (church), and claim to receive much comfort 
 from the following Scriptures : "For I, saith the Lord, 
 will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be 
 the glory in the midst of her." — Zech. ii. 5. And that if 
 Jerusalem is a type of the church, or holy city, and 
 when Jerusalem was threatened that the God of heaven 
 stood as a wall of fire around her margin, and His glory 
 in her midst, that there would not be much probability 
 of the enemy of souls robbing her of any of the ransomed 
 or redeemed of the Lord. 
 
 Old Zechariah further proclaims to the church, through 
 the instruction of the angel of the Lord, "Ho, ho, come 
 forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the 
 Lord : for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of 
 
224 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 the heaven, saith the Lord. Deliver thyself, Zion, 
 that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon." — Zech. ii. 
 6,7. 
 
 Now, sir, these Old Baptists claim to have Christian 
 fellowship for many who are members of our churches 
 and institutions, and their ministers proclaim to us from 
 the pulpit, with eloquence and arguments that are al- 
 most equal to the angels that spoke to the prophets of 
 old, and claim that God has spread them to the four 
 winds of heaven, and that they inhabit every country 
 and nation where God has a people. And in their ex- 
 hortations they beg us to come out from the dwellings 
 of the daughter of Babylon, and live with the true Israel 
 of God, where we can he down in green and fertile pas- 
 tures of salvation by grace, and find rest to our poor, 
 thirsting souls, and thus evade "the plagues that are 
 written in this book. " 
 
 They will then repeat to us David's confidence in God's 
 grace: "The Lord is my shepherd: I shall not want. 
 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth 
 me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul : He 
 leadeth mo in the paths of righteousness for His name's 
 sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the 
 shadow of death, I will fear no evil : for thou art with 
 me : thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou pre- 
 parest a table for me in the presence of mine enemies : 
 Thou anointest my head with oil : my cup runneth over. 
 Surely, goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days 
 of my life : and I will dwell in the house of the Lord 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 225 
 
 forever." — Ps. xxiii. They say that they can truthfully 
 apply the language of David to their own individual 
 cases ; bearing further testimony with David before his 
 conviction of sin, " Before I was afflicted I went astray ; 
 but now have I kept thy word." — Ps. cxix. 67. And 
 that your disciples treat them to-day as your disciples of 
 old treated old D ( avid. " The proud have had me greatly 
 in derision; yet have I not declined from Thy law." — 
 Ps. cxix. 51. " The proud have forged a lie against me ; 
 but I will keep Thy precepts with my whole heart." — 
 Ps. cxix. 69. And that notwithstanding we have lied 
 against them, and derided and mocked them, they are 
 determined with the help of God not to violate any of 
 the commandments and Christian ordinances of their 
 Lord. 
 
 These Old Baptists further claim that the inhabitants 
 of this holy city constitute the bride or church of Jesus 
 Christ, and that they are individually and collectively 
 the lawful legatees of the inheritance of eternal life, and 
 that they are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus 
 Christ, and cannot under legal or spiritual litigation be 
 defrauded out of their rightful inheritance. They being 
 bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, and composing 
 his body, having been given to him by his Father before 
 the world was, and their names written in the Lamb's 
 book of life, that they have a perfect right and title to 
 the inheritance of eternal life as bequeathed to them by 
 the Father ; and that the heirs of no other kingdom, 
 nation or kindred, have any legal or spiritual right to 
 
226 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 the inheritance bequeathed to the covenanted heirs of 
 promise ; neither can the heirs of promise sell or give 
 their inheritance to others. " No man can come to me 
 except the Father which hath sent me draw him ; and I 
 will raise him up at the last day." — John vi. 44. 
 
 They say that Joseph's brethren sold him to the Midi- 
 anites for twenty pieces of silver (Gen. xxxvii. 28), which 
 sale was a type of the selling of Jesus to his enemies by 
 Judas for thirty pieces of silver, which was only about 
 half price for a man of his age under the laws of Moses, 
 but exemplifies the theory of his enemies, who are 
 preaching salvation half by grace, and the other half by 
 works ; hence half the price of salvation must be reck- 
 oned of works, and the other half must be reckoned of 
 grace (see Lev. xxvii.); and that every type and sale of the 
 Lord has ever been for selfish ends, and has ever termin- 
 ated in the chagrin and humiliation of those who sold 
 him, they not being able to make a bona fide title at the 
 time of litigation, before the courts of heaven ; tried by 
 the law of the King of kings, from whose decision there 
 is no appeal. They further say that we are still selling 
 Jesus to the enemies of the Old Baptists for different 
 prices, ranging from one hundred to two thousand dol- 
 lars per annum, in proportion to the ability or ingenuity 
 of the salesman in getting a good price, but have ever 
 failed to make a bona fide title 3 their patent or title not 
 being given by the proper authority, duly authenticated 
 and registered upon the parchments of the lawful heirs. 
 And that our humiliation and disappointment will result 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 227 
 
 in the building up and comfort of the Old Baptists, as 
 exemplified from the days of antiquity to the present. 
 
 No one would presume to deny the benefits that 
 Joseph's brethren received in selling him to the Midi- 
 anites ; neither would any say that the true Israel of 
 God were not benefited in the sale of their Lord ; for it 
 behooved Jesus and Joseph to suffer for their brethren. 
 Joseph the type, and Jesus the anti-type. " Thus it is 
 written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to 
 rise from the dead the third day." — Luke xxiv. 46. 
 Nevertheless, the wicked intent and crime committed 
 by Judas and Joseph's brethren was not mitigated ; but 
 the glorious and wonderful works of God were displayed 
 in the temporal and eternal salvation of ■ national and 
 spiritual Israel. "For where a testament is, there must 
 also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a tes- 
 tament is of force after men are. dead : otherwise it is of 
 no strength at all while the testator liveth." — Heb. ix. 
 16, 17. They say that it is evident that a testator is any 
 person of sound mind and lawful age who dies and 
 leaves a will or testament at death, as to the disposal of 
 his effects, and records it in a solemn, authentic in- 
 strument in writing, and declares his will as to the dis- 
 posal of his estate and effects after his death, together 
 with the appointment of lawful executors to his will. 
 
 Should a father die and fail to leave this written testa- 
 ment, the laws of the land provide a testament for him, 
 and in no case can the heirs of others lawfully claim any 
 part of the inheritance ; but in all cases the parties speci- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 fied in the will, or the lawful heirs of the deceased par- 
 ents, are the only legatees. They contend that the heirs of 
 promise, whom the Father gave the Son before the world 
 began, whose names were all written in che Lamb's book 
 of life ("I pray for them : I pray not for the world, but 
 for them which thou hast given me : for they are thine. 
 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine ; and I am 
 glorified in them. n — John xvii. 9, 10. i. all fell in Adam, 
 who was their federal head, and are therefore partakers 
 of his sins. ' * Behold. I was shapen in iniquity ; and in 
 sin did my mother conceive me." — Ps. li. 5. " And were 
 by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But 
 God who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith 
 He loved us. even when we were dead in sins, hath 
 quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are 
 saved.*" — Eph. ii. 3, 4, 5. And that the sacrifice or death 
 of their natural parents or federal head will not secure 
 for them eternal life, but will only secure for them the 
 inheritance bequeathed to them from the estate of their 
 earthly parents. But that the Father in His wisdom, and 
 for the great love wherewith He loved them, even when 
 they were dead in sins, had covenanted with and pre- 
 pared a donated sacrifice that was above the law, who 
 by the will of the Father agreed to come under the law. 
 to save or redeem them that the Father gave him, who 
 were under the law. This donated sacrifice was compelled 
 to be without sin. to satisfy the demands of the law. 
 Therefore the sins of his people were imputed to this sin- 
 less sacrifice, who knew no sin, and are remembered 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 220 
 
 against them no more forever. He being a donated and 
 sinless sacrifice, did not release him from the terrors of 
 the law : therefore the demands of the law that were 
 against the heirs of promise for then- sins were compelled 
 to be executed upon him. But he was not to be sold nor 
 bought. But Judas transgressed the law. and sold him 
 for thirty pieces of silver, which was the price of the 
 bride, the Lamb's wife, as typified by the price of woman 
 under the laws of Closes ; and that Judas did not seUhim 
 for the price of a man of his age : for under the law of 
 Moses he would have got fifty pieces of silver : hence, he 
 sold the church and not the man. "And thy estimation 
 shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto 
 sixty years old : even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels 
 of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary. And if it be 
 a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels." — 
 Lev. xxvii. 3. 1. But that the shedding of his blood was 
 a propitiation for the sins of all that the Father gave him. 
 Hence every heir of promise stands redeemed from un- 
 der the curse of the law. and has a bona fide title to the 
 inheritance of eternal life : all demands against said in- 
 heritance having been eternally and forever liquidated 
 by the blood of the Lamb, which was the everlasting- 
 price of redemption. "The Spirit itself beareth wit- 
 ness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. 
 And if children, then heirs : heirs of G-od. and joint hems 
 with Christ." — Rom. viii. 16, 17. "And if ye be Christ's. 
 then are ye Abraham's seed and hens according to the 
 promise." — Gal. iii. 29. "Wherefore thou art no more 
 
230 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 a servant, but a son ; and if a son, then an heir of God 
 through Christ. n — Gal. iv. 7. " Cast out the bondwoman 
 and her son ; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be 
 hen with the son of the free woman." — Gal. iv. 30. 
 "Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto 
 the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, 
 confirmed it by an oath ; that by two immutable things, 
 in which it was impossible for God to he, we might have 
 a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold 
 upon the hope set before us." — Heb. vi. 17, 18. 
 
 But as the will of a testator cannot take effect until 
 after his death, Jesus was compelled to die, to accom- 
 plish the designs of his testament or tvill, so that the heirs 
 of promise might inherit the estate and become the pos- 
 sessors of the legacy bequeathed to them ; which legacy 
 is the glory that he had with the Father before the world 
 began. "And now, Father, glorify thou me with 
 thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee be- 
 fore the world was." — John xvii. 5. 
 
 But he rose from the grave the third day, and became 
 his own executor, and excuted the will of the Father, as 
 he did in his primitive glory with the Father before the 
 world began. And he became a conqueror over death, 
 hell and the grave, for all that the Father gave him. 
 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors 
 through Him that loved us.' -Rom. viii. 37. The will 
 of the Father being the will of the Son and the will of 
 the Son being the will of the heirs, and the heirs being 
 in the Son, and the Son being in the Father, would make 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 23l 
 
 such a vital and everlasting union between the Father, 
 Son and heirs, that outside contestants would stand but 
 a poor showing before the courts of heaven in setting 
 aside the will or testament of the' Lord, and lawfully 
 claiming any part of the inheritance. " My sheep hear 
 my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And 
 I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish.; 
 neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My 
 Father, which gave them me, is greater than all ; and 
 no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 
 I and my Father are one." — John x. 27, 31. 
 
 They further contend that the head represents Christ, 
 and that the body represents the church ; and that a 
 mother always dresses the body of her child because it 
 is her child, and does not dress it to make it ' her child ; 
 that she could not dress the child of any other with the 
 same spirit of love and devotion that she cares for her 
 own child ; and that Christ, the head, represents the wis- 
 dom of the mother in dressing the body, the sympathy 
 of Christ, the head, being with the body, or church, com- 
 municating divine life to each member of this body at 
 his own appointed time and in his own appointed way ; 
 and that when this divine life is communicated to the 
 last member of this body, or church, clothing them with 
 divine inspiration, time will be no more ; and that the 
 body of Christ (church) will then be in full fruition 
 with the Father, in that everlasting compact that ex- 
 isted with the Father and the Son before the world be- 
 gan ; and that all the things of time, human reason, 
 
232 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 sympathy and intellect, will all be buried in the grave, 
 never again to be resurrected ; but that all the bodies of 
 the saints will be resurrected and clothed with immor- 
 tality on the great day of the resurrection. " And I saw 
 the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the 
 books were opened : and another book was opened, which 
 is the book of life : and the dead were judged out of those 
 things which were written in the books, according to 
 their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were 
 in it ; and death and hell delivered up the dead which 
 were in them ; and they were judged every man accord- 
 ing to their works. And death and hell were cast into 
 the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whoso- 
 ever was not found written in the book of life was cast 
 into the lake of fire." — Kev. xx. 12, 15. " So also is the 
 resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is 
 raised in incorruption : it is sown in dishonor, it is raised 
 in glory ; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power ; 
 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 
 There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. " — 
 I Cor. xv. 42, 45. " So when this corruptible shall have 
 put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on 
 immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying 
 that is written, death is swallowed up in victory." — I 
 Cor. xv. 54. They further teach that all the saints of 
 God will be just like God, and will know God as God 
 knows them, having God's wisdom, God's honor, God's 
 features and God's glory, and that they will be in per- 
 fect felicity with God in heaven forever and ever, all 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 233 
 
 their humanity, griefs, woes, sorrows, sympathies and 
 sins having been left in the grave, where they were con- 
 signed to their mother earth from whence they came. 
 " ' Beloved, now are we the sons of God ; and it doth not 
 yet appear what we shall be : but we know that when 
 he shall appear we shall be like Him ; for we shall see 
 Him as He is."— I John hi. 2. And if the saints in 
 heaven are like God, and anything was to transpire that 
 was averse to the will of the saints, or body of Christ, 
 the same thing would be averse to the will of God ; and 
 that the designs of God and the felicity of God and His 
 people would be overthrown, and heaven would not be 
 heaven ; for God Himself would not be happy, because 
 His people would not be happy, and He and they are 
 alike in heaven. In consequence of the above Scriptural 
 arguments, they say that all of our grave -yard and death- 
 bed stories, that excite the human sympathies of the 
 silly, making them believe that there is natural love and 
 affections in heaven, and that should they be fortunate 
 enough to get there, that they would be grieved at the 
 nonappearance of natural kindred and loved ones, and 
 that natural heavenly recognition was a necessity in the 
 completion of their eternal happiness, is all homespun 
 and bosh. * • For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy 
 slayeth the silly one. I have seen the foolish taking 
 root : but suddenly I cursed his habitation. His chil- 
 dren are far from safety, and they are crushed in the 
 gate, neither is there any to deliver them." — Job. v. 2, 
 4. ' ' Having a form of godliness, but denying the power 
 
234 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 thereof : from such turn away. For of this sort are they 
 which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women 
 laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learn- 
 ing, and never able to come to the knowledge of the 
 truth."— II Tim. hi. 5, 7. They further teach that in the 
 testament or will of Jesus he never appointed any exe- 
 cutors to his will, in the form of missionary boards, exe- 
 cutive committees, financial committees, etc., whose 
 duty it was to appoint ministers to certain fields of labor, 
 and covenant with them as to the amount of labor to be 
 performed, and the price to be paid for it, upon con- 
 ditions that if the labor is performed the money will be 
 paid, and if the work is not done the contract will be 
 void, and the minister heavily censured or excommuni- 
 cated from the ministry. 
 
 They say that this is selling Jesus to the people, and 
 making merchandise of the gospel of Christ. "And 
 through covetousness shall they with feigned words 
 make merchandise of you : whose judgment now of a 
 long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth 
 not." — II Peter ii. 3. "And said unto them that sold 
 doves, Take these things hence ; make not my Father's 
 house a house of merchandise. And His disciples re- 
 membered that it was written, The zeal of thine house 
 hath eaten me up."— John ii. 16, 17. But that the apos- 
 tles and disciples of Jesus went where the Spirit di- 
 rected them, and preached the gospel to all the inhabitants 
 of the then inhabited world, independent of the mis- 
 sionary boards, committees and commissions of men, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 235 
 
 and received the same persecutions that the Primitive 
 Baptists do to-day ; yea, even worse ; for they were in- 
 carcerated and beaten even unto death for contending 
 for the same everlasting gospel, and denouncing the de- 
 vices and doctrines of men, as do the Old Baptists to- 
 day : but the apostles rejoiced "that they were counted 
 worthy to suffer shame for His name." — Acts v. 41. 
 But that the Old Baptist ministers are under no special 
 obligations to serve a church or people, without they 
 are moved by the Spirit to do so ; but f eeling that there 
 is a great responsibility resting upon them to go and 
 proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to a dying world, 
 that peradventure they may supply some poor, thirsting 
 soul with spiritual food, and edify them in the things of 
 the kingdom, and cause them to denounce the legisla- 
 tive courts of Babylon, and accept the ecclesiastical 
 courts of heaven, and enlist under the banner of Jesus, 
 becoming identified and consecrated with the people of 
 God. And that in doing this they follow the pattern of 
 the apostles and disciples of old, taking God for surety ; 
 believing that the same Spirit that admonishes them to 
 go and preach, will stimulate the disciples and friends of 
 the Christian religion to sustain them as they go, inde- 
 pendent of all the moneyed machineries of Antichrist. 
 
 Now, sir, you are certainly aware of having impressed 
 one of the most lordly of our ministers, who was the 
 presiding officer at our east Texas conference, in the city 
 of Henderson, in the fall of 1882, to burlesque these Old 
 Baptists, by relating a circumstance connected with 
 
230 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 their history ; which circumstance they say has been 
 common among them from the days of antiquity to the 
 present, God leaving himself but one or two visible wit- 
 nesses to testify in behalf of the great Redeemer of 
 souls. 
 
 Bishop Parker said, in one of his grandest appeals to 
 the sympathies of a large and attentive audience, for 
 money to support foreign missions, which missions had 
 in the past converted and saved untold thousands of 
 souls that otherwise would have been lost, adding num- 
 erical strength to the church, whose combined influence 
 and liberality had unclogged the wheels of Zion, and 
 that Zion was then on the grand road to victory, adding 
 strength, means and numbers to her already grand 
 achievements ; and if the church would give to Zion their 
 prayers, and open their purses to her ministers, giving 
 them the means to procure a passport into every nook 
 and corner of the inhabited globe, that the time would 
 not be far distant when all the inhabitants of the earth 
 would become moralized and Christianized under their 
 benign influence, and the Christian millennium would 
 soon be ushered in upon the inhabitants of the earth, 
 and one grand hallelujah could be sent up from the 
 earth's remotest bounds to the throne of God in heaven. 
 He then related the circumstance that occurred among 
 a very meager sect, known as the Anti-missionary Bap- 
 tists, from a want of missionary aspirations. He stated 
 that one of our missionaries was traveling and preaching 
 to the destitute in one of the older states, and in route 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 237 
 
 passed through a densely populated community, the in- 
 habitants being well educated, moralized and Christian- 
 ized. In the midst of this community he passed a re- 
 spectable church building and grave-yard ; the church- 
 yard and grave-yard had grown up with a dense mass of 
 weeds and brush, and the house was soiled from age and 
 neglect, and to all human appearances was the home of 
 the owls and the bats. Curiosity, combined with the 
 love of God, led this man of God to inquire after the 
 owners of this property, situated in such a beautiful 
 grove, and surrounded by such elegant refinement ; and, 
 behold, it was the property of the Anti-missionary Bap- 
 tists, and its decay was the result of their anti-mission- 
 ary heresy. He asked the neighbors what had become of 
 them ; and the reply was that many of them had grown 
 old and had died, and that their remains were beneath 
 the brush and briars in the grave-yard ; others had 
 moved away, and one only was left in this community 
 to tell the tale of their demise. 
 
 Now, sir, one or two of these Old Baptists happened to 
 be present at this grand convocation of our ministers, 
 and actually mocked the effort of our lovely bishop ; and 
 when we would presume to mention his effort to them, 
 hoping to hear a word of approbation, they would repulse 
 us by reciting us to several circumstances mentioned in 
 the Bible, where the God of heaven had left himself on 
 several occasions with but one or two visible witnesses 
 to testify for and proclaim the glad tidings of the great 
 Redeemer of souls. 
 
238 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 They would then call our attention to Noah, Lot, 
 Elijah and many others of like precious faith ; but 
 especially would they call our attention to the circum- 
 stance of old Elijah, and Baal with his four hundred and 
 fifty prophets. " And Eh j ah came unto all the people, 
 and said, How long halt ye between two opinions ? If 
 the Lord be God, follow him ; but if Baal, then follow 
 him. And the people answered him not a word. Then 
 said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a 
 prophet of the Lord : but Baal's prophets are four hun- 
 dred and fifty men." And the prophets of Baal accepted 
 the proposition of Elijah to try their gods, and see who 
 was God. " And they took the bullock which was given 
 them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of 
 Baal from morning even until noon, saying, 0, Baal, 
 hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that an- 
 sw ered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. 
 And it came to pass at noon that Elijah mocked them, 
 and said, Cry aloud; for he is a god: either he is talking, 
 or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or perad venture 
 he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried 
 aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with 
 knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them." 
 But that when old Elijah repaired the altar of the Lord, 
 and put the sacrifice upon it, with twelve barrels of 
 water on it and around it, and called all the people to- 
 gether, he got down in a very humble way, as do these 
 Old Baptists, and prayed the God of heaven, " Hear me, 
 Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 239 
 
 art the Lord God. and that thou hast turned then heart 
 back again. Then the fire of the Lord fell, and con- 
 sumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, 
 and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the 
 trench. " — I Kings xviii. 
 
 They say that this bellowing, howling, crying, cutting 
 themselves with knives and lancets, making a mighty 
 appeal to Baal, begging their god to send down fire and 
 consume then offering, typifies Bishop Parker, with his 
 concourse of prophets ''mi ni sters), making a similar ap- 
 peal to their god to accept then sacrifice and consume 
 their offering. And that the principles of this poor. old. 
 lonely Baptist whom Bishop Parker was trying to ridi- 
 cule, is the anti-type of the principles of old Elijah, who 
 only remained a prophet of the Lord ; and that the same 
 spirit through all ages of the world has given God all the 
 praise, honor and glory, and has humbled the true Israel 
 of God in the dust of humility. 
 
 And that this poor Old Baptist that was left alone 
 among the prophets ('ministers ) of Antichrist is one of 
 the anti- types of Elijah and the prophets of Baal, when 
 they were testing the realities of their gods ; and that 
 Baal's was a complete failure, while the God of old Elijah 
 inspired him and told him to mock them, and tell them to 
 cry louder, peradventure their god was asleep, or had 
 gone on a journey. After which old Elijah humbled 
 himself in a very quiet manner (as do the Old Baptists 
 to-day when offering up then petitions to God), and 
 asked his God to consume the offering ; and in the 
 
L'4" SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 midst of the people and prophets of Baal, and to 
 their astonishment, the God of Elijah sent down fire 
 and licked np the water and consumed the offering : and 
 that in all probability this lonely Old Baptist was the 
 Elijah of that refined community. 
 
 They then propose to show us God's discriminating 
 grace and favor toward national Israel in their delivery 
 from Egyptian bondage, and the utter destruction of the 
 armies of Egypt, who sought to continue them in slave- 
 ry : and that both nations were the creatures of God. 
 and that He favored the Egyptians with wrath and arro- 
 gance, but finally destroyed them, and chastized the 
 Israelites in slavery and degradation, but finally saved 
 them, r * For whom the Lord loveth he ehasteneth. and 
 
 irgeth every boh whom He reeeiveth." — Heb. xii 
 And that old Pharaoh is a type of our god. and that we 
 and our arminian cohorts are the anti-types of the 
 armies of Egypt, under the auspices of Pharaoh, and 
 that in our determination to force God to accept our 
 good works, and save us upon principles of justice, and 
 claim eternal salvation as a payment for our many good 
 deeds, is the antitype of the iron will of Pharaoh to 
 1. afoe God to yield to the mandates of Pharaoh : but that 
 God exemplified His power by sending miserable plagues 
 upon Pharaoh, humiliating his proud and stubborn 
 heart, until he was forced from circumstances to yield 
 to the mandates of heaven and let the children of Israel 
 but that (rod hardened his heart by withdrawing 
 the plagues ; and that immediately, with all tl) 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 241 
 
 perated fury of a demon, he pursued them with his 
 armies of avarice to his entire destruction, and to their 
 deliverance as ordained or predetermined by God ; and 
 that the same power that saved the Israelites, destroyed 
 the proud Egyptians ; and that in like manner the same 
 power that humiliates these Old Baptists with the chas- 
 tening rod of poverty and derision, will ultimately de- 
 stroy their proud arminian persecutors, whom God has 
 blessed with the wealth and arrogance of Pharaoh ; and 
 that their arguments, aided by the power and word of 
 God, are as terrifying to our system of salvation as were 
 the plagues that God sent upon old Pharaoh for his re- 
 fusal to let the children of Israel go, as commanded by 
 Moses under the direction of God. But that we are like 
 old Pharaoh ; when the plagues are withdrawn, our 
 hearts become hard again ; and when the devouring 
 arguments are withdrawn for a season, we rise again in 
 our own strength, as did Pharaoh, and bid the God of 
 these Old Baptists defiance. "For He saith to Moses, I 
 will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will 
 have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So 
 then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that run- 
 neth, but of God that showeth mercy. For the Scrip- 
 tures saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose 
 have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in 
 thee, and that my name might be declared throughout 
 all the earth. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He 
 will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth."-— 
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244 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ion that removes the Eed Sea from their front, and en- 
 ables them to stand still and see the salvation of God ; 
 and then they march through their great sea of trouble 
 to Jesus upon dry land, leaving the armies of Antichrist 
 behind and in pursuit of them, to be swallowed up in the 
 boisterous waters that God had opened for their escape. 
 
 They then propose to try our system of salvation, 
 based upon the combined efforts of man and the offered 
 favors of God, and compare it with their system of sal- 
 A^ation by grace alone, and the positive favors of God. 
 They claim that the grace of God in their hearts will in- 
 evitably produce acceptable good works, and that God 
 works in all the saints. ' ' For it is God which worketh 
 in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." — 
 Phil. ii. 13. While good works will never produce the 
 special favor of grace, neither can the Father be hired or 
 bribed by the good works of carnal man to bestow the 
 special favor of grace upon them, but that common favors 
 will always follow the legitimate good works of the carnal 
 mind. 
 
 They say that in the days of Noah God made a pro- 
 found test of salvation by grace, and salvation by our 
 effort system, and that our effort system was an entire 
 failure, while salvation by grace alone was a complete 
 success. 
 
 In the days of Noah the people became desperately 
 wicked, and bid the ways of pod defiance ; " and it re- 
 pented the Lord that He had made man on the earth, 
 and it grieved him at His heart." — Gen. vi. 6. It is 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 245 
 
 not to be supposed here that His divinity repented, or 
 that His divinity had a sympathetic fleshly heart, but 
 that His humanity repented, and not His divinity. 
 " Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, 
 and cometh down from the Father of lights, with 
 whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." — 
 James i. 17. Therefore His divinity could not repent. 
 The people in those days, as now, had sought out many 
 inventions, that they might receive a part of the glory 
 and honors of their own eternal salvation, by various 
 systems and doctrines of men, to promote 'their own self- 
 aggrandizement ; but the glory of the Father being the 
 glory of the Son, and the glory of the Son being the 
 glory of the Father, and every heir of promise being in 
 the Son, and the Son in the Father, and for the great 
 love that the Father had for the Son, and that the Son 
 had for the church, the Father manifested His power 
 and eternal purposes by sending a flood and destroying 
 the world, thereby setting aside the abominations and 
 doctrines of men; preserving his eternal promise and pur- 
 poses with the heirs of promise to His Son, through the 
 heirs of righteous Noah, thence to Abraham, thence to 
 Isaac, thence to the coming of Christ, thence to all the 
 nations of the earth, by the middle wall of partition be- 
 ing broken down between nations ; since which time 
 God has had an elect people among all nations, kindreds 
 and tongues, "For the promise is unto you, and to your 
 children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the 
 Lord our God shall call." — Acts ii. 39. 
 
246 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 " But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." — 
 Gen. vi. 8. Noah being the only preacher of righteous- 
 ness that was left to proclaim the glad tidings of sal- 
 vation by grace alone, God preserved His church through 
 him. " And spared not the old world, but saved Noah, 
 the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in 
 the flood upon the world of the ungodly." — II Pet. ii. 5. 
 And the Lord commanded Noah, ' * Make thee an ark of 
 gopher wood : rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and 
 shalt pitch it within and without with pitch," etc. — Gen. 
 vi. 14. The Lord commanded him as to its precise di- 
 mensions, its length, breadth, height, depth, rooms, 
 doors, windows, and every minutiae was specially desig- 
 nated. And Noah by faith did precisely as God com- 
 manded him. " And Noah did according unto all that 
 the Lord commanded him." — Gen. vii. 5. He did not 
 transcend nor fall short of the limits of his Lord, but was 
 willing to take God for surety, without conferring with 
 any of the devices or institutions of men ; for " By faith 
 Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, 
 moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his 
 house; by the which he condemned the world, and became 
 heir of the righteousness which is by faith." — Heb. xi. 7. 
 
 Now, sir, they tell us that the faith and God of old 
 Noah is the same faith and God that these Old Baptists 
 have to-day, and that they follow the commands of their 
 God to-day with that same abiding faith that Noah, Lot, 
 Abraham and all the old patriarchs did, without adding 
 to or taking from, just as Noah did in building the ark ; 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 247 
 
 and that when the ark was complete, Noah did not have 
 to go himself nor send ont missionaries to bring in the 
 promised inhabitants of the ark, but that God sent them 
 in by pairs and by sevens, both male and female, of all 
 the animals, fowls and creeping things of the earth ; and 
 that Noah was not required to even shut the door ; he 
 was so free from an agency in their salvation and pre- 
 servation. " And they went in unto Noah into the ark, 
 two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 
 And they that went in, went in male and female of all 
 flesh, as God had commanded him ; and the Lord shut 
 him in."— Gen. vii. 15, 16. 
 
 Now, sir, this is what these Old Baptists call salvation 
 by grace alone ; this is what they call the unadulterated 
 Christian's faith, that humbles them, and makes them 
 willing to bear all the persecutions and derisions of Anti- 
 christ, for Christ's sake ; and that this is one of the many 
 examples of abiding faith in God by the primitive Chris- 
 tians ; and that God is the same God to-day that He was 
 then ; and that genuine Christians have the same special 
 favors of salvation by grace, and faith in the sufficiency 
 of God to do all His pleasure to-day, as He had in the 
 primitive days, "with whom is no variableness, neither 
 shadow of turning." And that their God is a God of 
 purpose, and does not do things at random, but does all 
 things after the eternal purpose of His will. " Declar- 
 ing the end from the beginning, and from ancient times 
 the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel 
 shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." — Is. xlvi. 10. 
 
24 S SUPPOSED ESTER VIEW. 
 
 They will then take up our combination of salvation 
 by works and grace, and compare our present system of 
 an offered salvation, upon conditions that we do many 
 good works to secure the special favors of God's grace, 
 and harmonize it with the effort system of the willwor- 
 shipers or ungodly Pharisees, who mocked old Noah at 
 the time of the building of his ark : and that the same 
 spirit that counseled the Pharisees of old to mock old 
 Noah for following the precise commands of his Lord, 
 stimulates us to mock these old Baptists to-day for do- 
 ing just as Noah did when he refused to negotiate with 
 any of the Pharisaical devices of men, but determined 
 implicitly to obey the mandates of heaven, taking God 
 for surety in all things. 
 
 They say that when the ark was finished, and all the 
 promised inhabitants were sent in by God, and God 
 then shut them in, that they can then see in their 
 mind's eye the dark clouds beginning to rise, the heavy 
 peals of thunder, the vivid lightning flashing through 
 the yielding ether, the dark and dismal forebodings that 
 cover heaven's high ethereal dome, then the rain begins 
 to fall in torrent floods from the heaven's shrouded 
 skies ; with that they see large and horror stricken 
 groups of willworshipers helping God to stop the mighty 
 consternation with their prayers ; while Noah and all 
 the inhabitants of the ark sit with perfect complacency 
 in the ark, under the almighty protection of God's 
 amazing grace. They then see the waters begin to rise 
 in the small tributaries, thence to the larger streams. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 249 
 
 thence the low grounds are covered, thence the margin 
 of the hills are shrouded with the awful tragedy of 
 God's indignation upon the people of Antichrist for then 
 ungodly irreverence to the mandates of heaven ; they 
 still see destruction pursuing them by the swelling 
 waters reaching then 1 cottages and barns : their horses. 
 camels, oxen, asses, and all then portable substance is 
 then gathered together on the effort system : the horses 
 and oxen are harnessed to cans and wagons, which are 
 laden with commissaries and supplies, the camels are 
 packed with other burdens of weight, and with one 
 common consternation they ascend the hills for protec- 
 tion : the waters finally push them from the hills, and 
 they flee to the mountains. In ascending the highest 
 peaks, they see the strength of the horses, oxen and 
 camels failing with their drenched and heavy burdens : 
 they see the teamsters exhausted from hunger and 
 fatigue, and women and children behind pushing at the 
 wheels, and crying at the astonishment and consterna- 
 tion of God's wrath upon them. Finally they reach the 
 loftiest peaks of the mountain, much of the debris and 
 less valuable property being left behind them. But the 
 scene of this awful catastrophe is not yet consummated. 
 The waters float them off the highest peaks of the 
 mountains ; and amidst all the crying, shrieks and lam- 
 entations of dying men. women and children, who are 
 expecting salvation upon the effort system, they are 
 swept off into the mighty waters, some clinging to the 
 floating pieces of furniture, carts and wagons, until all 
 
250 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 are submerged into the mighty waters of the flood ; 
 while Noah and his family are floating upon the boister- 
 ous water in perfect complacency, under the protection 
 of God's amazing mercy and grace. 
 
 Now, Sir, they say that we wLllworshipers are equally 
 zealous in our effort system, at our excitement meet- 
 ings, popularly known as revivals, and especially when 
 our revival is held in the midst of some inundation, 
 conflagration, epidemic or contagion, thereby impeding 
 the common pursuits of lif e, and hazarding the life and 
 property of the inhabitants ; and that our religion has a 
 much greater effect upon us under such circumstances 
 than at any other season of the year ; and that when 
 our good old effort Christians become cognizant of the 
 impending danger that confronts them, and they see 
 temporal and eternal destruction in the near future, 
 their religion revives, and our popular effort system is 
 at once called into requisition, as in the time of the 
 flood. 
 
 But that these Old Baptists, in the midst of all these 
 excitements and disasters, are found complacently fol- 
 lowing the examples of the patriarchs of old, and are by 
 faith standing still, waiting for the salvation of the 
 Lord. 
 
 They further say that at the time of such excitements 
 they see us gathering together in groups, and trying to 
 help God save the people from the awful calamities that 
 await them, thereby mocking God by asking him to 
 change the decrees of heaven, by rearranging the course 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 251 
 
 and relationship of the astronomical bodies so that rains 
 and pestilences may come to suit those more competent 
 to judge of the times, seasons and pestilences than the 
 Lord. And that when these troubles press us closer 
 and closer, as the waters of the flood followed our 
 spiritual ancestors, that we climb the hills higher and 
 higher, until we reach the summit of excitement in our 
 religious exercises ; and that when our teamsters, (min- 
 isters,) fail to be able to roll the wheels of the loaded 
 chariots of supplies {unconverted) to the supposed sum- 
 mit of safety, they see the old fathers and mothers with 
 their deluded offspring pushing at the wheels of their 
 supposed chariots of Zion, crying at the top of their 
 voices, upward and onward, " Amen, glory to God, help 
 us, God, to save these sinners from the gulf of de- 
 spair, for we know that the devil has greater power to 
 engulf them in ruin than you have to save them with- 
 out our help ; therefore, Lord, come down with thy 
 help and might, and we will help you to save them ; for 
 we know, Lord, that you are a willing God, and all 
 that you need in their salvation is our assistance, which 
 shall be rendered without stint ; and with your help, 
 Lord, we will land them on the summit of safety, where 
 the devil can never reach them, if they will only stay 
 within the limits of our protection." 
 
 But that they see the flood of endless destruction 
 reaching the summit of our supposed safety upon the 
 effort system, and enveloping the highest peaks of our 
 retreat, submerging us, together with our floating idols. 
 
252 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 to which we cling, until all is buried in the awful abyss 
 of endless despair upon the effort system ; while those 
 who have been killed, in their transition from nature to 
 grace, to the boastful stratagems of salvation by works, 
 are floating upon the all sufficiency of God's mercy and 
 grace, and are by faith following the precepts and ex- 
 amples of the patriarchs of old, and are found to be 
 standing still in times of religious peril, and waiting for 
 the salvation of the Lord. And if they are wrong, they 
 say that they are conscientiously wrong, because they 
 are perfectly resigned to the will and word of God, and 
 are submissionists in a religious sense, having no power 
 of their own, but are wholly dependent upon God for 
 life and salvation ; neither do they propose to assist God 
 by pushing at the wheels of Zion and throwing dust in 
 the air ; indirectly asking God to take a back seat, and 
 that they will carry on the work of soul saving ; and 
 after they have accomplished the work of converting 
 and saving many souls, then ask God in their petitions 
 to bless the work and save their converts from apostasy ; 
 thereby mocking God, as though He were in His dotage, 
 and not able to do all His pleasure without the puny 
 help of man with his feigned efforts to assist God in the 
 salvation of sinners. 
 
 They say that it is impossible for any candid Christian 
 to gainsay the power and will of God, when the word of 
 God declares that He works all things after the counsel 
 of His own will. "In whom also we have obtained an 
 inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose 
 
SUPPOSED IXTEKYIEW. 253 
 
 of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His 
 own will." — Eph. i. 11. And that He works in His 
 chosen people to will and to do of His own good pleasure, 
 and that He works in no one else. " For it is God which 
 worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good plea- 
 sure.'' — Phil. ii. 13. And that His people shall be a wil- 
 ling people in the day of His power. " Thy people shall 
 be willing in the day of Thy power." — Ps. ex. 3. And 
 that the Old Baptists do not work for numbers nor for 
 policy, so far as this world is concerned, but that they 
 are actuated from a higher incentive than the accumu- 
 lation of members to swell their treasury under the 
 guise of God's insolvency, and hence inability to save 
 souls without money ; but that they are ever zealous to 
 keep the world out of the church, and thereby preserve 
 peace, harmony, brotherly love and Christian fellowship 
 among themselves. "Pure religion and undefiled be- 
 fore God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless 
 and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself un- 
 spotted from the world." — James i. 27. Hence they are 
 a peculiar people, zealous of good works. ■ ' Who gave 
 himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, 
 and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of 
 good works." — Tit. ii. 14. And that they have every 
 confidence in God's ability to make all His chosen people 
 a willing people in the day of His power, without any 
 bulldozing or logrolling them into the church for policy's 
 sake, upon the testimony of a fleshly experience and 
 carnal repentance, actuated from human sympathy, 
 
254 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 caused by the narration of some grave-yard or death-bed 
 story, regardless of a godly sorrow for sin. 
 
 They further say that we dishonor God when we limit 
 His foreknowledge, and that His foreknowledge compre- 
 hended all things that have or will exist, from the com- 
 mencement to the end of time, in all their varied forms, 
 latent, active, passive and positive ; and that His fore- 
 knowledge is synonymous with His absolute predestina- 
 tion of all things ; and that it would be impossible for 
 God to foreknow any circumstance, action or substance, 
 without predestinating it ; and that it would be wholly 
 inconsistent for God to predestinate any circumstance, 
 action or substance, without a foreknowledge of it ; and 
 that the ingenuity of men and devils cannot invent any- 
 thing that is new to Him ; and that He rules and con- 
 trols all things to His own honor and glory, and makes 
 the wrath of man to praise Him. " Surely the wrath of 
 man shall praise Thee : the remainder of wrath shalt 
 Thou restrain." — Ps. lxxvi. 10. And that when we are 
 vaunting and throwing dust in the air, in helping God 
 to save souls, and ridiculing the Old Baptists for not 
 chiming in with us, we are making our wrath to praise 
 God, in the establishment of His elect or chosen people ; 
 and that all the murderous and blasphemous devices of 
 those who make no religious pretenses, and the execu- 
 tion and punishment of them before the courts, only 
 serve to praise God, by disgusting His elect people and 
 causing them to shun the appearance of evil. " Abstain 
 from all appearance of evil. " — I Thes. v. 22. And that 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 255 
 
 when He has accomplished His designs in taaking the 
 wrath of man to praise Him, He restrains the remainder 
 of man's wrath by the penalties of the law, which is in 
 hot pursuit of the evil doer. Therefore He is the creator 
 and preserver of all things, both good and evil, and all 
 for His own glory. " For by Him were all things 
 created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible 
 and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or 
 principalities, or powers : all things were created by 
 Him, and for Him, and He is before all things, and by 
 Him all things consist." — Col. i. 16, 17. Therefore the 
 Father knew all things, and made known to His Son all 
 things. " I and my Father are one." This being the 
 case He certainly knew from all eternity who would be 
 saved and who would be lost ; and in the covenant of 
 grace between the Father and the Son before the world 
 began, the Father either gave the Son a part of the 
 human family, who should be the happy recipients of His 
 Holy Spirit, or He gave him all of them ; and upon the 
 theory of a universal atonement, the Universalists are 
 correct ; for God cannot be disappointed. " All that the 
 Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh 
 to me I will in no wise cast out." — John vi. 37. We 
 dare not say that any part or parcel whom the Father 
 gave the Son will not come unto Him ; for the Father 
 and the Son have emphatically said that they shall come. 
 "My Father,, which gave them me, is greater than all ; 
 and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's 
 hand." — John x. 29. And should we presume to say 
 
256 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 that they can or cannot come, or that they can or cannot 
 apostatize if they will upon their own volition, would be 
 to give God the lie, which would be blasphemy ; for God 
 says that they shall come, and that no man is able to pluck 
 them out of His hand. The testimony of Paul says, 
 " Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors 
 through Him that loved us. For I am persuaded that 
 neither death, nor lif e, nor angels, nor principalities, nor 
 powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor 
 height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be 
 able to separate us from the love of God, which is in 
 Christ Jesus our Lord." — Eom. viii. 37, 38, 39. There- 
 fore they say that their eternal salvation is positive, be- 
 cause the God of heaven never does His work but one 
 time, and that His first work has stood the test of ages, 
 and will stand through all ages to come ; and that Jesus 
 finished the salvation of all that the Father gave him, 
 at the time of his crucifixion. "When Jesus therefore 
 had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished : and he 
 bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." — John xix. 30. 
 "I have glorified thee on the earth : I have finished the 
 work which Thou gavest me to do." — John xvii. 4. 
 
 " These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to 
 heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come ; glorify thy 
 Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee : as thou hast 
 given him power over all flesh, that he should give 
 eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." — John 
 xvii. 1, 2. And that when divine life is communicated 
 to those whom the Father gave the Son, this divine life 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 257 
 
 will never leave them, nor commit sin. "I give unto 
 them eternal life, and they shall never perish." u We 
 know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not : but 
 he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that 
 wicked one toucheth him not." — I John v. 18. 
 
 Now, sir, these Old Baptists will positively ensnare us, 
 by asking us similar questions to the following, and 
 then exult over their victory : 
 
 Do you admit the absolute foreknowledge of God in all 
 things ? 
 
 We are compelled to answer that we do. 
 
 Do you agree that He chose His people in Christ be- 
 fore the world began ? 
 
 We are obliged to agree that He did, or deny the word 
 of God. 
 
 Do you admit that their names were all written in the 
 Lamb's book of life before the world began ? 
 
 The word of God emphatically says that they were, 
 and we cannot deny it. 
 
 Do you believe that there were any chosen who were 
 out of Christ ? 
 
 We cannot say that there were, because the Word of 
 God says that they were all chosen in Christ. 
 
 Do you believe that all who were chosen in Christ fell 
 in Adam in his transgression % 
 
 We certainly do. 
 
 Do you believe that the spirits or souls of any who 
 were not chosen in Christ fell in the transgression of 
 Adam ? And if so, where and what did thev fall from ? 
 
258 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 We are compelled to answer that we do not know. 
 
 Is it not a fact that if God foreknew all things, they 
 stood condemned in the eternal wisdom of God from all 
 eternity, and that those whom he chose in Christ stood 
 justified in the wisdom of God from all eternity ? 
 
 We are compelled to answer that we do not know, or 
 expose our cause, having already admitted that God 
 foreknew all things, and cannot be disappointed. 
 
 Do you know why God chooses one and leaves another? 
 or makes choice and converts one member of a family, 
 and does not another ? or converts and regenerates one 
 man, and does not another ? 
 
 We are compelled to answer that we do not know. 
 
 Does He not choose the ones that 'were chosen in 
 Christ before the world began, and not the others ? 
 
 We can but say that it really seems so. 
 
 Would it not conflict with the foreknowledge of God 
 for Him to choose any others except those whom He 
 foreknew and gave the Son, who were chosen in Christ 
 before the world began ? 
 
 We are compelled to say that it would. 
 
 Well, then, does He not choose some, and leave others 
 because He chose them in Christ before the world began, 
 and did not choose the others ? 
 
 It certainly looks that way. 
 
 Well, then, does the Father choose them to make 
 them His Son's, or does he choose them because they are 
 His Son's, and were once in Christ, and by heirship be- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 259 
 
 long to Christ, having been given to the Son by the 
 Father before the world began ? 
 
 We are compelled to answer in the affirmative. 
 
 They then claim a grand victory over us, and refer us 
 to Paul's letter to the Galatians. ' i And because ye are 
 sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your 
 hearts, crying, Abba, Father." — Gal. iv. 6. And they 
 say that God did not quicken them into spiritual life to 
 make them sons, because they stood sons in the wisdom 
 of God before the world began ; and to redeem His obli- 
 gation to His Son, He was compelled to quicken or bring 
 to spiritual lif e all who fell in Adam, who by covenant 
 and blood relationship belonged to the Son, or make void 
 His contract, which would be impossible 'for God to do, 
 as He cannot he. We then propound some questions to 
 them, and ask them if those whom the Father did not 
 give the Son, did not also fall in Adam \ And if so, 
 from what did they fall, since they were never in 
 Christ ? 
 
 And they tell us that they fell from their natural state 
 of innocency in Adam, just as the heirs of promise did, 
 and in a natural sense became like the heirs of promise, 
 all partaking of the transgression of their federal head, 
 Adam, who by his disobedience to the command of God, 
 brought himself and his entire posterity under the con- 
 demnatory sentence of the law ; and that the difference 
 is, that God, through the efficacy of the blood of His 
 Son, redeemed those whom He gave the Son by contract, 
 and did not redeem those whom He did not give the 
 
260 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Son ; and that owing to this fact, God saves all alike in a 
 time salvation, and bestows the same common favors 
 upon the unjust as well as the just, all being His crea- 
 tion, but not by redemption ; but that the salvation of 
 those whom the Father did not give the Son terminates 
 at the grave, while the ransomed of the Lord go on to 
 the realms of eternal bliss and enjoy the full fruition of 
 everlasting happiness with the Father in heaven ; hence 
 Jesus died for the sins of the entire race of Adam, by 
 living up to the exact requirements of the law ; and in a 
 law sense all are the beneficiaries of His moral and tem- 
 poral blessings, but especially did he shed his blood for 
 those whom the Father gave him. 
 
 Some of these Old Baptists have offered to hold an 
 election with us, and let Jesus Christ and his apostles 
 sit as the umpires, and decide who and which is the 
 church of Christ by ballot. 
 
 They say that they are no better than Samson was, 
 and that Samson bet or wagered thirty sheets and thirty 
 changes of garments with his enemies ; and that his ene- 
 mies by fraud won the sheets and clothing ; and that 
 they will bet us a fine suit of clothing, for the truth's 
 sake, that the Old Baptists are elected by a large major- 
 ity as being the church of Jesus Christ. But that they 
 will not have any arbiters save Jesus Christ and his 
 apostles, knowing that our corruption and greed for 
 filthy lucre would swindle them out of the election, and 
 hence the clothing, should they submit the vote to 
 arbiters of our choosing. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 261 
 
 They propose to have two large tally sheets, and have 
 the names of the popular denominations, together with 
 the Old Baptists, written under each other as candidates 
 are in holding elections for the officers of the law, and 
 that ' c Affirmative " be written over the names on one of 
 the sheets, and that "Negative" be written over the 
 names on the other sheet. And that we then, in the 
 presence of God, commence and read from the first of 
 Matthew to the last of Revelation, and that when we 
 come to a command, ordinance or duty, as prescribed by 
 Jesus Christ or any of his authorized apostles, that we 
 cast our eyes up and down the list of contestants, and 
 make a tally mark at the end of each name on the 
 "Affirmative" page, that complies with said commands, 
 ordinances or duties. And then look up and down the 
 "Negative" sheet, and make a tally mark at the end of 
 each name who does not comply with said commands, 
 ordinances and duties ; who also add many of the doc- 
 trines and commandments of men that are not written, 
 and that when the election is over, we then count the 
 votes, and if the Old Baptists are not elected by an over- 
 whelming majority they will readily pay the clothing ; 
 yea, thirty suits of clothing ; for they say that they would 
 divest themselves of all their substance for the truth's 
 sake. And, sir, we have thus far declined their proposi- 
 tion, knowing that we would be beaten ; but our pretext 
 is that it would be sinful to gamble ; not but that we 
 could gain the election, as we are wont to hold out the 
 
363 SUPPOSED ESTER VIEW. 
 
 idea to them, but we know that we would lose our 
 notoriety and clothing. 
 
 They then propose to criticise our innovations upon 
 primitive doctrines, and say to our modern Missionary 
 Baptist friends, who are trying to steal the name of 
 Primitive Baptist, that they would like to know how 
 the original articles of faith of the Baptists, from the 
 days of the apostles up to the division of the Baptists, 
 which occurred between the years A. D. 1830 and 1840, 
 in the United States, will correspond with their present 
 cherished salvation by the means of their Babylonish 
 pet, the Sabbath school. And if the Primitive Baptists 
 are not still in unison with the original articles of faith. 
 They would like to know the age of our Sabbath school ; 
 who was its founder, when it crossed the ocean, who 
 taught the first one in the United States, and what was 
 the result of its growth and teachings \ And if Harriet 
 Beecher St owe and her brother Henry Ward Beecher. to- 
 gether with Charles Sumner, and many others of like 
 spiritual and political kin. did not write and circulate a 
 book <the title of which was "Uncle Tom's Cab' 
 among all the children of the nation, in advocacy of the 
 abolition of slavery, condemning slavery as being in- 
 human and sacrilegious. Did not the advocates of 
 abolitionism first kidnap and steal the negroes from the 
 land of their nativity, and sell them to the Southern 
 whiteSj because a cold Northern climate was not adapted 
 to th« ir Southern nativity, and therefore they could n A 
 utilize them as servants in a cold Northern climate! 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 263 
 
 And when the Congress of the United States passed a law 
 prohibiting the African slave trade, did not the parties 
 who were engaged in the kidnapping and theft of negroes 
 then condemn the institution of African slavery as being 
 Antichristian ! 
 
 Did they not teach their children in the original Sab- 
 bath schools of the United States that Southern slavery 
 was a great crime i 
 
 Did they not have the photographs of negroes upon 
 canvas, and it suspended in then church houses, and 
 the negroes bucked down before their Sabbath school 
 classes, with the photograph of a Southern white man 
 standing over them with a "cat of nine fails." and the 
 blood gushing from the poor negro's nacked back i 
 Was not all of this for the purpose of engendering 
 political and religious hatred in the minds of their rising 
 generations to Southern institutions \ 
 
 They answer all these questions in the affirmative, 
 and then ask us in the name of heaven if the Sunday 
 school was not the prime cause of the late war between 
 the States, in which so many precious lives were lost, 
 and then souls launched into eternity. And they are 
 presumptuous enough to claim that our Babylonish pet. 
 the "Sabbath sclioo 7 ." instead of being an institution of 
 Christ for the salvation of souls, has proven itself to be 
 an institution of the devil, for the destruction of life, and 
 has been tha means of engendering sectional hatred and 
 strife among the people of the proudest nation of the 
 earth. And that this sectional hatred, political and re- 
 
264 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ligious strife, was all engendered in the original Sabbath 
 schools of the United States, for the purpose of holding 
 the political reins of the government, all of which was 
 done in the guise of religious preferment. 
 
 The African slave trade having been abolished by Con- 
 gress, and the means of wealth from agriculture having 
 been sold into the hands of Southern planters, and the 
 means of Northern revenue from the kidnapping and theft 
 of negroes having been stopped by an act of Congress, 
 and the increase of wealth in the Southern States by the 
 prolific negro and his natural adaptation to servile labor, 
 guaranteed to the Southern capitalist the means of con- 
 trolling the political reins of the government in the 
 next half century ; hence the necessity of the Northern 
 corruptionist to educate the rising generation of their 
 day in this religious device, thereby abolishing slavery 
 for political instead of religious designs, and enslaving 
 the South with poverty and high protective tariffs, to the 
 advancement of Northern capitalists, and hence control 
 of the now concentrated government, but one State 
 rights' government ; all of which has been caused from 
 the corrupt devices of the original Sabbath schools. And 
 that, strange as it may appear, the very people who have 
 been enslaved by the teachings of Sabbath school heresies 
 are now petting them as one of God's institutions in the 
 salvation of souls. And that, should any of their modern 
 Missionary Baptist friends presume to doubt that the 
 modern missionaries claim life-giving powers for the 
 Sabbath school, they would respectfully refer them to 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 265 
 
 one of the minutes of one of the most popular Missionary 
 Baptist associations in Eastern Texas, and give us the 
 report of the committee on Sabbath schools ; and then_ 
 give us the Old Baptist articles of faith, from the date of 
 the division of the Baptists back to the apostles, and then 
 ask us how these articles of faith harmonize with the 
 teachings of this report on Sabbath schools, as indorsed 
 by the leading Missionary Baptists of Texas. 
 
 We quote from the Twenty-seventh Annual Session 
 of the Cherokee Baptist Association ; and on the 4th page 
 of their minutes we read as follows : 
 
 "Keport on Sabbath Schools." 
 
 " There is nothing of such importance, and of such 
 vital interest to the well-being of a community, or to the 
 prosperity of churches, as the Sabbath school. Its in- 
 fluence reaches out in every direction, permeating with 
 its life-giving power every nook and corner where chil- 
 dren are to be found, if but the proper care and interest 
 be manifested by parents and teachers in the building 
 up and carrying on a Sabbath school in their respective 
 neighborhoods. Some of the greatest lights in the church 
 and in the world had their foundations for usefulness 
 laid in the Sabbath school. By this means many a poor, 
 ragged child has been lifted from the gutter, to after- 
 ward take a high and exalted position in society, and oc- 
 cupy permanent places of honor and trust in the church 
 and in the State. Like a gentle rivulet, its effects may 
 be weak, imperfect ; but they will continue to broaden 
 
266 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and deepen, until like a mighty river it will bear on upon 
 its bosom the freighted treasures of many souls redeemed 
 and disinthralled, on to the great ocean of eternity. No 
 one can measure the depths of its power, or look up to the 
 heights of that divine love and grace which flow out 
 from its holy influence. Then let us as an association, 
 as churches, and as a people, look well to the interest of 
 our children, to those who are to come after us, and up- 
 on whom will rest the prosperity and perpetuity of free 
 religious institutions. And if we can do no more, let us 
 endeavor to organize a Sabbath school in every neigh- 
 borhood, to meet even once a month ; for we should re- 
 member that ' large streams from little fountains flow ; ' 
 and if we cannot accomplish a great deal, we may lay 
 the foundation stone for a future edifice that will become 
 grand in proportions, beautiful in outlines, and may re- 
 flect from its glittering spires an ineffable splendor and 
 glory that will be seen and felt throughout the whole 
 land, and become a light that poor shipwrecked souls, 
 ' sailing o'er life's troubled sea, ' may see and guard against 
 the wrecks of sin, and woe, and ruin, and anchor safely 
 in the port of everlasting rest. 
 
 We would recommend that Kind Words be placed in 
 the hands of the children, and have them read and un- 
 derstand their lessons, whether they be able to recite 
 them in school or not." C. B. Bacon, Ch'mn. 
 
 These Old Baptists will ask us for heaven's sake to tell 
 them what use the modern Missionary Baptists have for 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 267 
 
 the Savior, when the parents and Sabbath school can 
 make a full propitiation for the sins of all who come un- 
 der their benign influence. And as the Sabbath school 
 has life-giving power, they have no use for the atoning 
 blood of Christ, and of course must have a Sabbath 
 school, or they and their children will be engulfed in 
 endless despair. And as the Sabbath school is scarcely 
 one hundred years old, and was never known to be in a 
 Baptist church up to that time, that thousands of souls 
 have sunk down to ruin before its adoption into the 
 churches ; and they say, ! why could it not have been 
 discovered earlier, so that our ancestors and their dear 
 children could have been saved from hell, as the blood of 
 Christ is not sufficient without the Sabbath school ? 
 
 They then present to us the articles of faith as held 
 to by the Baptists from the time of the division of the 
 Baptists, back to the days of the apostles, and claim 
 them as the precise principle that the Old Baptists hold 
 to to-day. Although they have assumed different names 
 at different times for the sake of identity and distinction 
 from those of Antichrist, who had unawares crept in 
 among them to spy out their liberties and rob them of 
 their name for policy's sake, yet that their original prin- 
 ciples stand unsullied from the days of the apostles until 
 the present. 
 
 They then quote the articles of faith from the " Kehu- 
 Jcee Baptist Association ," as published by Burkett and 
 Beed's church history, upon which articles of faith the 
 Philadelphia and Charleston Associations were organ- 
 
268 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ized, said articles of faith being in accordance with the 
 Old Baptist confession of faith published in London in 
 1689. And they ask us to read them carefully and see 
 who has departed from the old landmark ; and that if 
 we have any discernment we can readily see why the 
 Old Baptists withdrew their fellowship from the so-called 
 Missionary Baptists in the years between A. D. 1830 and 
 1840. And that we can further see whether or not said 
 articles of faith chime in with the present system of sal- 
 vation through the means and instrumentalities of the 
 Sabbath school. 
 
 Obligation, on page 31. 
 
 "Forasmuch as Almighty God, by His grace, has been 
 pleased to call us (whose names are underneath sub- 
 scribed) out of darkness into His marvelous light, and all 
 of us have been regularly baptized upon a profession of 
 our faith in Christ Jesus, and have given up ourselves to 
 the Lord and to one another, in a gospel church way, to 
 be governed and guided by a proper discipline, agreeable 
 to the Word of God ; 
 
 "We do, therefore, in the name of our Lord Jesus, and 
 by his assistance, covenant and agree to keep up the dis- 
 cipline of the church we are members of, in the most 
 brotherly affection towards each other, while we endeavor 
 punctually to observe the following rules, viz : 
 
 " 1st. In brotherly love to pray for each other, to watch 
 over one another, and, if need be, in the most tender 
 and affectionate manner to reprove one another," etc. 
 
 At that time there were two orders of Baptists as 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 269 
 
 there are to-day, known as the ' i Regular Baptists " and 
 " Separate Baptists ." One was Arminian, and the other 
 Predestinarian. One was a type of the Missionary Bap- 
 tists of to-day, and the other was a type of the Primitive 
 Baptists of to-day. The Arminians courted the Predes- 
 tinarians, and they appointed a time for the wedding, 
 and married in the year 1765, and the marriage cere- 
 mony changed their names to the " United Baptists." 
 They then commenced living together under the follow- 
 ing agreement, or articles of faith, and lived together 
 (but with many family feuds) until the years between 
 A. D. 1830 and 1840, when the Missionary or Arminian 
 element committed so much religious fornication with 
 the daughters of Babylon (the false churches, Sabbath 
 schools,, and other institutions of men, that are not 
 authorized by the Word of God), that the Old Baptists 
 or Predestinarians could not live with them any longer, 
 and sued for a divorce on the testimony of religious for- 
 nication. And the then late consort of the church openly 
 acknowledged that he had committed adultery with 
 many of the daughters of Babylon, and that he would 
 not retract. Hence the Old Baptists, or church, under 
 the laws of God, and under the rules regulating the 
 church, known as the articles of faith, and rules of de- 
 corum, procured a divorce ; since which time many of 
 their Missionary Baptist friends have made love at them 
 again, hoping to effect another compromise and marry 
 them again ; but thus far the Old Baptists have declined 
 
270 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 to accept their hand, unless they will divorce themselves 
 from all the daughters of Babylon. 
 
 Articles of faith upon which the two parties were 
 married into the name of the " United Baptists" A. D. 
 1765, page 51 (which sets forth the same principles that 
 the Old Baptists are still contending for), and was ordered 
 to be published by the Association at Whitfield's meeting 
 house, Pitt County, North Carolina, A. D. 1799. 
 
 "First. We believe in the being of God, as almighty, 
 eternal, unchangeable, of infinite wisdon, power, justice, 
 holiness, goodness, mercy and truth ; and that this God 
 has revealed Himself in His word under the characters of 
 Father, Son and Holy Ghost. 
 
 "Second. We believe that Almighty God has made 
 known His mind and will to the children of men in His 
 word ; which word we believe to be of divine authority, 
 and contains all things necessary to be known for the 
 salvation of men and women. The same is compre- 
 hended or contained in the books of the Old and New 
 Testaments, as are commonly received. 
 
 " Third. We believe that God before the foundation of 
 the world, for a purpose of His own glory, did elect a 
 certain number of men and angels to eternal life ; and 
 that this election is particular, eternal, and unconditional 
 on the creatures' part. 
 
 "Fourth. We believe that when God made man at first, 
 he was perfect, holy and upright, able to keep the law, 
 but liable to fall, and that He stood as a federal head or 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 271 
 
 representative of all His natural offspring, and that they 
 were to be partakers of the benefits of His obedience, 
 or exposed to the miseries which sprung from his diso- 
 bedience. 
 
 "Fifth. We believe that Adam fell from this state of 
 moral rectitude, and that he involved himself and all 
 his natural offspring in a state of death, and for that 
 original transgression we all are both filthy and guilty in 
 the sight of a holy God. 
 
 " Sixth. We also believe that it is utterly out of the 
 power of men, as fallen creatures, to keep the law of 
 God perfectly, repent of their sins truly or believe in 
 Christ, except they be drawn by the Holy Spirit. 
 
 "Seventh. We believe that in God's own appointed 
 time and way (by means which He has ordained) the 
 elect shall be called, justified, pardoned and sanctified ; 
 and that it is impossible they can utterly refuse the call, 
 but shall be made willing, by divine grace, to receive the 
 offers of mercy. 
 
 " Eighth. We believe that justification in the sight of 
 God is only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, 
 received and applied by faith alone. 
 
 "Ninth. We believe in like manner that God's elect 
 shall not only be called and justified, but that they shall 
 be converted, born again, and changed by the effectual 
 working of God's Holy Spirit. 
 
 ' ' Tenth. We believe that such as are converted, justified 
 and called by His grace, shall persevere in holiness, and 
 never fall finally away. 
 
272 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 " Eleventh. We believe it to be a duty incumbent on all 
 Grod's people to walk religiously in good works ; not in 
 the old covenant way of seeking life, and the favor of 
 the Lord by it, but only as a duty from a principle of 
 love. 
 
 " Twelfth. We believe baptism and the Lord's supper 
 are gospel ordinances, both belonging to the converted, 
 or true believers ; and that persons who were sprinkled 
 or dipped whilst in unbelief were not regularly baptized 
 according to God's word, and that such ought to be bap- 
 tized after they are savingly converted into the faith of 
 Christ. 
 
 " Thirteenth. We believe that every church is independ- 
 ent in matters of discipline ; and that associations, coun- 
 cils and conferences of several ministers or churches are 
 not to impose on the churches the keeping, holding or 
 maintaining any principle or practice contrary to the 
 church's judgment. 
 
 ' ( Fourteenth. We believe in the resurrection of the dead, 
 both of the just and the unjust, and a general judg- 
 ment. 
 
 "Fifteenth. We believe the punishment of the wicked 
 is everlasting, and the joys of the righteous are eternal. 
 
 " Sixteenth. We believe that no minister has a right to 
 the administration of the ordinances, only such as are 
 regularly called, and come under imposition of hands by 
 the Presbytery. 
 
 "Seventeenth. Lastly, we do believe that for the mutual 
 comfort, union and satisfaction of the several churches 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 273 
 
 of the aforesaid faith and order, we ought to meet in an 
 associational way, wherein each church ought to repre- 
 sent their case by their delegates, and attend as often as 
 is necessary to advise with the several churches in con- 
 ference ; and that the decision of matters in such asso- 
 ciations ought not to be imposed or in any wise binding 
 on the churches without their consent, but only to sit 
 and act as an advisory council." 
 
 " These principles were adopted by the Association, at 
 Elder James Bell's meeting-house, on Sappony, Sussex 
 County, Virginia, and afterwards re-examined and recom- 
 mended by the Association at Pottacasy meeting-house, 
 in Northampton County, North Carolina, A. D. 1778." 
 
 Now, sir, these Old Baptists will tantalize our Mis- 
 sionary Baptist friends, and tell them for heaven's sake 
 to read these articles of faith carefully, and then turn to 
 Mr. C. B. Bacon's report on Sabbath Schools, which re- 
 port is indorsed by the leading Missionary Baptists of 
 Texas, and similar reports are indorsed by the leading- 
 Missionary Baptists of the United States. They then 
 ask them in the presence of God to tell them who has 
 departed from the faith, and who has a bona fide title to 
 the name, Old School or Primitive Baptists. 
 
 In tracing themselves back to the apostles, they will 
 refer us to some of the articles of faith that set forth the 
 doctrines and tenets of the Old Baptists, as written by the 
 Waldenses A. D. 1120, and published to the world A. D. 
 1220, page 325, Jones' Church History. And they say 
 that those ancient articles of faith are exactly in har- 
 
274 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 mony with the Old Baptists' abstract of principles of to- 
 day. 
 
 " Second Article. — We believe that Jesus Christ is the 
 Son and image of the Father, that in Him all the fullness 
 of the Godhead dwells, ^nd that by him alone we know 
 the Father. He is our mediator and advocate ; nor is 
 there any other name given under heaven by which we 
 can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the 
 Father, using no other prayers than those contained in 
 the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agree- 
 able thereunto. 
 
 ' * Th ird. —We believe in the Holy Spirit as the comforter, 
 proceeding from the Father and from the Son ; by whose 
 inspiration we are taught to pray ; being by Him renewed 
 in the Spirit of our minds : who creates us anew unto 
 good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge 
 of the truth. 
 
 " Fourth. — We believe that there is one holy church, 
 comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful 
 that have existed from the beginning of the world, or 
 that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the 
 Lord Jesus Christ is the head : it is governed by his word 
 and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it be- 
 hooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her he 
 (Christ) prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most 
 acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be 
 no salvation. 
 
 " Tenth. — We contend that all those in whom the fear 
 of G<><! dwells will thereby be led to please Him, and to 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. ■ 275 
 
 abound in the good works of the gospel, which God hath 
 before ordained that we should walk in them, which are 
 love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, 
 sobriety, and the other good works enforced in the Holy 
 Scriptures. 
 
 "Eleventh. — On the other hand, we confess that we con- 
 sider it to be our duty to beware of false teachers, whose 
 object is to divert the minds of men from the true wor- 
 ship of God, and to lead them to place their confidence 
 in the creatures, as well as to depart from the good 
 works of the gospel and to regard the inventions of men. 
 
 " Twelfth. — We take the Old and New Testaments for 
 the rule of our life, and we agree with the general con- 
 fession of faith contained in what is usually termed the 
 apostles' creed." 
 
 Now, sir, they claim that the ancient Christians that 
 held to this old abstract of principles are identified with 
 the principles of the Old Baptists of to-day. 
 
 " In the year 1210 twenty-four persons of the Wal- 
 denses were seized in the city of Paris, some of whom 
 were imprisoned,' and others committed to the flames. 
 In the year 1331 the monks of the inquisition, who were 
 deputed to search after the Waldenses, apprehended one 
 hundred and fourteen of them at Paris, who were burnt 
 alive, sustaining their torture with admirable fortitude." 
 —Jones' Church History, page 383. "In the year 1530 
 George Moel, one of the pastors of a church of the Wal- 
 denses, published memoirs of the history of their 
 churches, in which he states that at the time he wrote 
 
276 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 there were above eight hundred thousand persons pro- 
 fessing the religion of the Waldenses : nor will this ap- 
 pear an exaggerated statement if we consider the view 
 that was given, in the last section, of their dispersion 
 throughout almost every country of Europe, the immense 
 numbers that suffered martyrdom, and that was form- 
 erly mentioned that in the year 1315, namely, two cen- 
 turies before this time, there were eighty thousand of 
 them in the small kingdom of Bohemia."— Jones' Church 
 History, page 426. 
 
 " An edict was issued in favor of the Waldenses, bear- 
 ing date the 5th of June, 1511, granting the privilege of 
 holding their public assemblies in all the usual places, 
 free from molestation ; and that such of them as had 
 been injured by the seizure and confiscation of their 
 property should have it restored, or receive compensation 
 for the same." — Jones' Church History, page 464. " In 
 the year 1601, Bartholomew Copin, a Waldensian of the 
 valley of Lucerne, had occassion to attend a public fair 
 at Ast, a city in Piedmont, to which he had brought for 
 sale some articles of merchandise," etc. — Jones' Church 
 History, page 472. 
 
 " About the month of May, 1655, that many hundreds 
 of the poor Protestants in the valleys of Piedmont, 
 (otherwise known by the name of Waldenses*) within 
 the territory of Duke of Savoy, were most cruelly mas- 
 sacred by a Popish party." — Jones' Church History, page 
 504. " The tranquility of the Waldenses in Piedmont 
 was now first invaded by a proclamation issued by the 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 277 
 
 governor of the valleys, about the end of the year 1685." 
 They next refer us to Eobert Robinson, in his Eccle- 
 siastical Researches, page 126, where Novatian in the 
 year 251, was ordained the pastor of a church in the city 
 of Rome, which maintained no fellowship with the Cath- 
 olic church. 
 
 " He was," says he, "an elder in the church of Rome, 
 a man of extensive learning, holding the same doctrine 
 as the church did, and published several treatises in de- 
 fense of what he believed. His address was eloquent 
 and insinuating, and his morals irreproachable. He saw 
 with extreme pain the intolerable depravity of the church. 
 Christians, in the space of a few years, were caressed by 
 one Emperor and prosecuted by another. In seasons of 
 prosperity many persons rushed into the church for base 
 purposes. In times of adversity they denied the faith 
 and reverted again to idolatry. When the squall was 
 over they came again to the church, with all their vices, 
 to deprave others by their examples. The bishops, fond of 
 proselytes, encouraged all this, and transferred the atten- 
 tion of Christians from the old confederacy for virtue, 
 to vain shows at Easter, and other Jewish ceremonies, 
 adulterated, too, with paganism. On the death of 
 Bishop Fabian, Cornelius, a brother elder, and a violent 
 partisan for taking in the multitude, was put in nomi- 
 nation. Novatian opposed him : but as Cornelius car- 
 ried his election, and he saw no prospect of reformation, 
 but on the contrary a tide of immorality pouring into 
 the church, he withdrew, and a great many with him. 
 
278 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 [A perfect type of the division of the Baptists in 1832.] 
 Cornelius, imitated by Cyprian, who was just in the 
 same condition, through the remonstrances of virtuous 
 men at Carthage, and who was exasperated beyond meas- 
 ure with one of his own elders, named Novatus, who 
 had quitted Carthage and gone to Eome to espouse the 
 cause of Novatian, called a council and got a sentence of 
 excommunication passed against Novatian. In the end 
 Novatian formed a church and was elected bishop. 
 Great numbers followed his example, and all over the 
 Empire Puritan churches were constituted and flour- 
 ished through the succeeding two hundred years. Af- 
 terwards, when penal laws obliged them to lurk in corn- 
 ers, and worship God in private, they were distinguished 
 by a variety of names, and a succession of them con- 
 tinued till the reformation." "Here then," says Dr. 
 Allix, " we have found a body of men in Italy, before 
 the year one thousand and twenty-six, five hundred 
 years before the Eeformation, who believed contrary to 
 the opinions of the church of Eome, and who highly con- 
 demned their errors." Atto, bishop of Verceulli, had 
 complained of such people eighty years before, and so 
 had others before him, and there are the highest reasons 
 to believe that they had always existed in Italy." page 282. 
 " On page 32, Mosheim refers to the church as it was 
 in the years 61 and 94. On page 55, he refers to the 
 church in the year 177. On page 78, he refers to the 
 church in the year 211. On page 80, he refers to the 
 church in the year 211). On page 81, he refers to the 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 279 
 
 church in the year 270. On page 99, he refers to the 
 church in the years 311, 324. On page 105, he refers to 
 the Christian church in the years 330, 370. On page 
 134, he refers to the church in the year 421. On page 170, 
 he refers to the church in the years 524, 591. On page 
 176, he refers to the church in the year 650. On page 200, 
 he refers to the church in the year 775. On page 208, he 
 refers to the church in the year 867. On page 209, he re- 
 fers to the church in 827. On page 229, he refers to the 
 church in 866. On page 236, he refers to the church in 
 897. On page 253, he refers to the church in 1090. On 
 page 295, he refers to the church in 1017. On page 330, 
 he refers to the church in 1148. On page 331, he refers 
 to the church in 360, 380. On page 371, he refers to the 
 church in 1262. On page 375, he refers to the church in 
 1209. On page 383, he refers to the church in 1307. On 
 page 392, he refers to the church in 1387, 1415. And on 
 page 399, he refers to the church in 1472, 1506. In 
 volume second, page 35, Mosheim refers to the church 
 in 1533, and on page 886, he refers to the church in 1655 
 and 1685." — Debate on Church Identity, by Hardy & 
 Wallace, page 46. 
 
 Now, sir, to complete their chain of identity back to 
 the apostles, they will refer us to page 99 of Jones' 
 Church History, which shows that Paul the apostle was 
 put to death in the year A. D. QQ, for contending for 
 the same principles and for preaching the same everlast- 
 ing gospel that the Old Baptists are contending for and 
 preaching to-day. 
 
2S0 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 And then for o ur Missionary Baptist friends, who are 
 contending for the life-giving powers of their Babylonish 
 god (the Sabbath school), to have the presumption to claim 
 the name, Primitive Baptist, is a shame before God, and 
 is repulsive to all regenerated men and women who have 
 any sense of honor or respect for truth or Christianity. 
 
 They then propose to introduce another set of Old Bap- 
 tist articles of faith written by the Waldenses hundreds 
 of years before there was any such a people known as 
 the Missionary Baptists, and see how they agree with 
 the policy of the life-giving Sabbath school of our Mis- 
 sionary Baptist friends. And they further propose to 
 compare them with all the " means and instrumentality" 
 system of our mission friends, and see if the means 
 system of salvation is not a complete failure from the 
 time of their introduction until we have completed their 
 examination. 
 
 " First. We believe and firmly maintain all that is con- 
 tained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly 
 called the apostle's creed, and we regard as heretical 
 whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles. 
 
 " Second. We believe there is one God, the Father, Son 
 and Holy Spirit. 
 
 " Third. We acknowledge for sacred canonical Scrip- 
 tures the books of the Holy Bible. [Here the books are 
 mentioned]. 
 
 "Fourth. The books above mentioned teach us that 
 there is one God, almighty, unbounded in wisdom and 
 infinite in goodness, and who in His goodness has made 
 
STTPPOSED INTERVIEW. 281 
 
 all things. For He created Adam after His own image 
 and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil and 
 his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the 
 world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam. 
 
 "Fifth. That Christ had been promised to the fathers 
 who received the law, to the end that, knowing their 
 sin by the law and their unrighteousness and insuffi- 
 ciency, they might desire the coming of Christ to make 
 satisfaction for their sins, and to accomplish the law by 
 himself. 
 
 "Sixth. That at the time appointed of the Father 
 Christ was born, a time when iniquity everywhere 
 abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the 
 sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners ; but 
 that he who is true, might display His grace and mercy 
 towards us. 
 
 "Seventh. That Christ is our life, and truth, and 
 peace, and righteousness, our Shepherd and advocate, 
 our sacrifice and peace, who died for the salvation of all 
 who should believe, and rose again for their justification. 
 
 *7T W vv W 7v 7T W 
 
 " Tenth. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the 
 inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an un 
 speakable abomination before God : such as the festival 
 days and vigils of saints, and what is called holy water, 
 the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like 
 things ; but above all the masses. 
 
 "Eleventh. We hold in abhorrence all human inven- 
 tions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce 
 
282 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 distress, and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind. 
 
 u Twelfth. We consider the Sacraments as signs of 
 holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible bless- 
 ings. We regard it as proper, and even necessary, that 
 believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can 
 be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that be- 
 lievers may be saved without these signs, when they 
 have neither place nor opportunity of observing them. 
 
 "Thirteenth. We acknowledge no sacraments (as of 
 divine appointment) but baptism and the Lord's supper. 
 
 "Fourteenth. We honor the secular powers with sub- 
 jection, obedience, promptitude and payment." 
 
 Now, sir, in calling our attention to the above articles, 
 written A. D. 1120, and especially the tenth article, 
 which says, " we regard the inventions of men as an 
 unspeakable abomination before God," they then ask us 
 in the name of heaven to tell them who were the inven- 
 tors of the innovations upon primitive doctrines ? Who 
 invented Sabbath schools, theological schools, missionary 
 boards, home and foreign missions, fat salaries, publish- 
 ing societies, together with all the other religious devices 
 and abominations to the church of Christ, after the so- 
 called means and instrumentality salvation ? 
 
 They answer, Not the Old Baptists ; but that the Old 
 Baptists are the only people to-day that observe the 
 tenth article quoted, who " regard the inventions of men 
 as an unspeakable abomination before God." And that 
 with the above proofs it is absurd for our missionary 
 friends to even feign to be the original Primitive Baptists. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 283 
 
 They further claim that there is no other denomination 
 that regards the Missionary Baptists as being the Primi- 
 tive Baptists, except themselves, and that many of the 
 intelligent of their own people either admit that they 
 are not the Primitive Baptists, or that they have con- 
 scientious scruples about it. 
 
 "The Concord Association split on doctrine about 
 twenty years past ; both bodies called themselves Con- 
 cord ; the Calvinistic party claimed to be first, and the 
 Arminian division was accounted the second." — Bene- 
 dict, page 801. " The Arminians derive their name and 
 origin from James Arminius." — Mosheim, page 279. 
 "The Arminians were so called from James Arminius, 
 who died at Leyden, in Holland, in 1609, just a hundred 
 years after Calvin was born. Arminius warmly op- 
 posed Calvin's notions respecting predestination." — Bene- 
 dict, page 41. " The reader must keep in mind that in 
 this day those were called Arminians who held to the 
 universal provisions of the gospel, or that the atonement 
 of Christ was general in its nature." — Benedict, page 61. 
 
 ''General Baptists. — This term has from the begin- 
 ning of the Eeformation been applied to that class of 
 Baptists in England who have held universal redemp- 
 tion. The Particular Baptists are strictly Calvinistic in 
 their creed. But those who are called General, lean to 
 the Arminian system. The former hold that Christ died 
 for the elect only, while the latter plead that the Savior 
 by his death and sufferings has made salvation possible 
 for all." — Benedict, page 224. 
 
281 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 "The Baptists in England are divided into General 
 and Particular, and have been since the Eeformation. 
 Their principal difference is in point of doctrine." — Bene- 
 dict, page 189. 
 
 "From what we have said, various useful observa- 
 tions by way of inference might be made, but we shall 
 only mention two : First, that according to the gospel, 
 the atonement of Christ did not extend to every individ- 
 ual of the human race ; and, secondly, that the gospel 
 contains no conditional offers of salvation." — Philadel- 
 phia Baptist Minutes, page 311, from 1707 to 1807. 
 
 They ask, Do the Missionary Baptists believe and 
 preach this doctrine to-day ? Do they ascribe to God all 
 the glory, "who hath saved us, and called us with a 
 holy calling, not according to our works, but according 
 to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in 
 Christ Jesus before the world began?" — II Tim. i. 9. 
 "We may mention these, because some in our days 
 seem to favor such notions, and some others that tend 
 to mar and go a great way towards sullying the glory of 
 the gospel. 
 
 " In regard to the first, if atonement was made for all, 
 it was God's intention that it should ; that intention 
 must have its full effect ; the effect must be that all 
 must and will be saved. If Christ answered the de- 
 mands of law and justice for all, and paid the price in 
 full, then there must be guiltless persons in hell for 
 want of being made meet for heaven. Christ has done 
 his part, but the Spirit declines doing his. Why God 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 285 
 
 should appoint satisfaction to be made for all, and after- 
 wards not renew and sanctify all, and bring them to 
 heaven, must be very strange, and utterly inconsistent 
 with the glory and perfections of Him who does nothing 
 in vain ; who never does a part without doing the whole; 
 who always finishes what He begins. It is manifest 
 from the Holy Scriptures that Christ made atonement 
 for his people. l He was taken from prison and from 
 judgment : and who shall declare his generation ? for he 
 was cut off out of the land of the living : for the trans- 
 gression of my people was he stricken.' — Is. liii. 8. 
 * Blessed be the Lord God of Israel : for he hath visited 
 and redeemed His people.' — Luke i. 68. ' As the Father 
 knoweth me, even so know I the Father : and I lay 
 down my life for the sheep.' — John x. 15. 'But ye be- 
 lieve not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto 
 you.' — John x. 26. 1 1 pray for them : I pray not for 
 the world, but for them which thou hast given me ; for 
 they are thine. ' — John xviii. 9 ( And again, I will put 
 my trust in Him. And again, Behold, I and the children 
 which God hath given me.' — Heb. ii. 13. 'And they 
 sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the 
 book and to open the seals thereof : for thou wast slain 
 and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every 
 kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.' — Eev. 
 v. 9. 
 
 "As to the seccnd, to make salvation conditional, 
 would rob God of His sovereignty, and make His glory 
 to depend on man, while at the same time it would give 
 
286 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 room for boasting. It would also convert the gospel of 
 the grace of God into a new law. Is the law of works 
 to be preferred to the covenant of grace ? If it be of 
 grace, says the apostle, then it is no more of works, 
 otherwise grace is no more grace. What ! make our 
 happiness depend on man ? If we will do part, God will 
 do the rest ? Alas ! what can man do in the business of 
 his salvation, first or last, to merit or promote it ? Is he 
 altogether dependent on God ? Yea, verily, that at every 
 step, in the beginning and progress of the glorious work, 
 he may cry grace, grace ; and whosoever glorieth, let 
 him glory in the Lord." — Minutes Philadelphia Baptist 
 Association, from 1707 to 1807, page 311. 
 
 Now, Sir, these Old Baptists claim that they believe, 
 preach and teach this identical doctrine to-day, and that 
 it has been handed down in regular successsion from 
 one generation to another from the days of the Apostles 
 to the present. But that the Missionary Baptists do not 
 believe, preach nor teach it this way ; but that they be- 
 lieve, preach and teach a conditional salvation, based 
 upon the means and conditions or instrumentalities of 
 the creature. And that if the Missionary Baptists do 
 not believe in this means and instrumentality salvation, 
 in the name of heaven what use have they got for Mr. 
 Bacon's report on Sabbath schools, and similar reports in 
 principle in all their religious magazines of the nation ? 
 
 They admit that in a few instances they have heard 
 Missionary Baptist ministers preach and contend for the 
 principles of election and unconditional salvation, but 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 287 
 
 that in every instance they soon preached themselves 
 out of the pastorate care of their churches, or were 
 visited by a committee of their church, and remon- 
 strated with, and censured for teaching a dangerous 
 doctrine, and were derided as "hard shells," and com- 
 pelled to retract, and denoumce truth as being error, or 
 shelter under the banner of the Primitive Baptists. 
 In further proof of their succession from the Apostles to 
 the present, they bring up the confession of faith as 
 adopted by the Baptists of Wales in 1689. 
 
 " Third Article. God's Decree. Those of mankind who 
 are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of 
 the world was laid, according to His eternal and immut- 
 able purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure 
 of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, 
 out of his mere free grace and love, without any other 
 thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving 
 him thereunto. 
 
 " As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so He 
 hath by the eternal and most free purpose of His will 
 foreordained all the means thereunto ; wherefore they 
 who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by 
 Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his 
 Spirit working in due season are justified, adopted, sanc- 
 tified, and kept by his power through faith unto salva- 
 tion. c According as he hath chosen us in him before 
 the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and 
 without blame before him in love.'— Eph. i. 1. 'I 
 speak not of you all ; I know whom I have chosen : but 
 
288 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 that the Scriptures may be fulfilled, he that eateth 
 bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.' — 
 John xiii. 18. l For whom He did foreknow, He also did 
 predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, 
 that he might be the first born among many brethren. 
 Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; 
 and whom He called, them He also justified ; and whom 
 He justified, them He also glorified. ' — Eom. viii. 29, 30. 
 ' For by grace are ye saved, through faith : and that 
 not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God.' — Eph. ii. 8. 
 ' But we are bound to give thanks always to God for 
 you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath 
 from the beginning chosen you to salvation through 
 sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.' — 
 2 Thes. ii. 13 l Sanctify them through thy truth : thy 
 word is truth.' — 'And for their sakes I sanctify myself, 
 that they also might be sanctified through the truth.' — 
 John xvii. 17, 19. 
 
 "Fourth.— The FaU of Man, and Sin. Although God 
 created man upright and perfect, and gave to him a right- 
 eous law, yet he did not long, abide in this honor, but 
 did willfully transgress the command given unto him, in 
 eating the forbidden fruit ; which God was pleased ac- 
 cording to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having 
 purposed to order it to His own glory. Our first parents 
 by this sin fell from their original righteousness and com- 
 munion with God, whereby death came upon all ; all be- 
 coming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties 
 and parts of soul and body. They being the root, cor- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 289 
 
 rupted nature was conveyed to all their posterity, de- 
 scending from them by ordinary generation, being now 
 conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath. ( And 
 the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every 
 tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat ; but of the 
 tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat 
 of it ; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt 
 surely die.' — Gen. ii. 16, 17. 'And he said, Who told 
 thee that thou wast naked ? Hast thou eaten of the tree 
 whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat ? 
 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be 
 with me, she gave me of the tree,- and I did eat. And the 
 Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast 
 done ? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, 
 and I did eat.' — Gen. hi. 11, 12, 13. ' Wherefore, as by 
 one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, 
 and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 
 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even 
 over them that had not sinned after the similitude of 
 Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was 
 to come.' — Rom. v. 12, 14. ' The heart is deceitful above 
 all things, and desperately wicked : who can know it ?' 
 — Jer. xvii. 9. ' Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and 
 in sin did my mother conceive me.' — Psa. Ii. 5. ' Among 
 whom also we all had our conversation in times past in 
 the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and 
 of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, 
 even as others.' — Eph. ii. 3. 
 
 "Fifth.— God's Covenant. — Man having brought him- 
 
290 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 self under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the 
 Lord to reveal the covenant of grace, wherein He freely 
 offered unto sinners lif e and salvation by Jesus Christ, 
 requiring of them faith in him, that they might be saved, 
 and promising to give unto all those that are ordained 
 unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing 
 and able to believe. ' For as many as are of the works 
 of the law are under the curse ; for it is written, Cursed 
 is every one that continueth not in all things which are 
 written in the book of the law to do them.' — Gal. iii. 10. 
 ' That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but 
 have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He 
 gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in 
 Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.' — John 
 iii. 15, 16. 
 
 "Sixth — Christ as the Mediator. — The Son of God, the 
 second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eter- 
 nal God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one sub- 
 stance, and equal with Him who made the world, who 
 upholdeth and governeth all things He hath made, did, 
 when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's 
 nature, with all the essential properties and common in- 
 firmities thereof, yet without sin ; so that the whole 
 perfect and distinct natures were inseparably joined to- 
 gether in one person, which person is the very God and 
 very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between 
 God and man. ' And the Word was made flesh, and 
 dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as 
 of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 291 
 
 truth.' — John i. 14. ' But when the fullness of the time 
 was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, 
 made under the law.' — Gal. iv. 4. ' For what the law 
 could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God 
 sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and 
 for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.' — Kom. viii. 3. 'For 
 we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with 
 the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points 
 tempted like as we are, yet without sin.' — Heb. iv. 15. 
 6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God 
 and men, the man Christ Jesus.' — I Tim. ii. 5. 
 
 "Seventh. — Redemption. — The Lord Jesus Christ, by 
 his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself , which he, 
 through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, 
 hath fully satisfied the justice of God, procured recon- 
 ciliation, and purchased an everlasting inheritance in the 
 kingdom of heaven for all those whom the Father hath 
 given unto him. 
 
 " To all of those for whom Christ hath obtained eternal 
 redemption, he doth certainly apply and communicate 
 the same making intercession for them, uniting them to 
 himself by his Spirit, revealing unto them in and by the 
 word the mystery of salvation, persuading them to believe 
 and obey, governing their hearts by his word and Spirit, 
 overcoming all their enemies by his almighty power and 
 wisdom, in such manner and ways as are most consonant 
 to his wonderful and unsearchable dispensation, and all 
 of free and absolute grace, without any condition fore- 
 seen in them to procure it. ' For by one offering he hath 
 
292 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 perfected for ever them that are sanctified.' — Heb. x. 14. 
 'Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through 
 faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the 
 remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance 
 of God. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness : 
 that he might be just, and the justifier of him which be- 
 lieveth in Jesus.' — Kom. hi. 25, 26. ' As thou hast given 
 him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life 
 to as many as thou hast given him. ' — John xvii. 2. ' And 
 for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament, 
 that by means of death for the redemption of the trans- 
 gressions that were under the first Testament, they which 
 are called might receive the promise of eternal inheri- 
 tance.' — Heb. ix. 15. ( In the last day, that great day of 
 the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man 
 thirst, let him come unto me and drink.' — John vii. 37. 
 4 1 pray for them : I pray not for the world, but for them 
 which thou hast given me; for they are thine.' — John 
 xvii. 9. ' But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if 
 so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any 
 man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ' 
 ' For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are 
 the Sons of God'.— Eom. viii. 9, 14. 'For He must 
 reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. 
 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.' — I 
 Cor. xv. 25, 26. ' The wind bloweth where it listeth, 
 and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell 
 whence it cometh, and whither it goeth : so is every 
 one that is born of the Spirit.' — John iii. 8. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 293 
 
 "Eighth — The will. — Man by his fall into a state of 
 sin hath wholly lost all will to any spiritual good accom- 
 panying salvation ; so a natural man, being altogether 
 averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his 
 own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself 
 thereunto. 
 
 " When God converts a sinner and translates him into 
 the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bond- 
 age under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely 
 to will and to do that which is spiritually good. ' Be- 
 cause the carnal mind is enmity against God ; for it is 
 not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So 
 then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.' — Eom. 
 viii. % 8. ' No man can come to me, except the Father 
 which hath sent me draw him ; and I will raise him up 
 at the last day.' — John vi. 44. ( Who hath delivered us 
 from the power of darkness, and has translated us into 
 the kingdom of His dear Son. In whom we have re- 
 demption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.' — 
 Col. i. 13, 14. c If the Son therefore shall make you free, 
 ye shall be free indeed.' — John viii. 36. c For the law of 
 the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from 
 the law of sin and death.' — Eom. viii. 2. c For by grace 
 are ye saved, through faith ; and that not of yourselves; 
 it is the gift of God.' — Eph. ii. 8. ' Who hath saved us, 
 and called us with a holy calling, not according to our 
 works, but according to His own purpose and grace, 
 which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world be- 
 gan.'— II Tim. i. 9. 
 
294 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 "Ninth. — Effectual Calling. — Those whom God hath 
 predestinated unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and 
 accepted time effectually to call by His word and Spirit, 
 out of the state of sin and death in which they are by 
 nature, to the grace of salvation by Jesus Christ. 
 ' Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also 
 called ; and whom He called, them He also justified ; and 
 whom He justified, them He also glorified.' — Eom. viii. 
 30. c But we are bound to give thanks always to God 
 for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath 
 from the beginning chosen you to salvation through 
 sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. 
 Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining 
 of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.' — II Thes. ii. 13, 14. 
 * According as He hath chosen us in Him before the 
 foundation of the world, that we should be holy and 
 without blame before Him in love. Having predestin- 
 ated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to 
 himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.' — 
 Eph. i. 4, 5. 
 
 " Tenth. — Justification. — Those whom God effectually 
 calls, He also freely justifieth, accounting and accepting 
 their persons as righteous : not for anything wrought in 
 them or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone. " Be- 
 ing justified freely by His grace through the redemption 
 that is in Jesus Christ.' — Eom. iii. 24. i Moreover, whom 
 He did predestinate, them He also called ; and whom He 
 called, them He also justified ; and whom He justified, 
 them He also glorified.' — Kom. viii. 30. 'For if by one 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 295 
 
 man's offence death reigned by one, much more they 
 which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of 
 righteousness shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ.' 
 'For as by one man's disobedience many were made 
 sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made 
 righteous.' — Rom. v. 17, 19. 
 
 "Eleventh. — Adoption. — All those that are justified, 
 God vouchsafed in and for the sake of His only Son, Jesus 
 Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption, by 
 which they are taken into the number and enjoy the 
 liberties and privileges of the children of God. ' Having 
 predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus 
 Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of His 
 will.' — Eph. i. 5. 'To redeem them that were under the 
 law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And 
 because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His 
 Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.' — Gal. iv. 5, 6. 
 6 Now, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, 
 but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household 
 of God.' — Eph. ii. 19. ' For ye have not received the 
 spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have received the 
 spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.'— 
 Rom. viii. 15. 
 
 " Twelfth. — They who are united to Christ, effectually 
 called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new 
 spirit created in them, through the virtue of Christ's 
 death and resurrection, are also further sanctified, really 
 and personally, through the same virtue, by his word 
 and Spirit dwelling in them. — ' That he would grant you 
 
296 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened 
 with might by his Spirit in the inner man.' ' And to 
 know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that 
 ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.' — Eph. iii. 
 16, 19." — Belcher's Religious Denominations, page 141, 
 setting forth the Baptist Articles of faith, by the 
 founders of the church in Wales, in the year 1689. 
 
 Now, Sir, they ask us in the name of heaven to tell 
 them who holds to and puts into practice these articles 
 of faith to-day, setting forth unconditional salvation on 
 the part of the creature, except the Old School or Primi- 
 tive Baptists. And that our Missionary Baptist friends 
 dare not in the face of truth and testimony claim the 
 name, Primitive Baptist ; for all honest historians know 
 that they have only had an existence since the year 1832, 
 when they departed from the above articles of faith, by 
 precept and example, and set up under the popular name 
 of Missionary Baptists ; imbibing- the popular idea of 
 James Arminius and conditional salvation. Hence, their 
 numbers have grown to immense proportions, many of 
 whom are members from emotions of pride and popular- 
 ity, and are destitute of the grace of God in their hearts, 
 not being able to give a satisfactory reason for their 
 hope in Christ Jesus. Others are among them because 
 they did not have the moral fortitude to resist the excite- 
 ment and moral suasion that was brought to bear upon 
 them at some Arminian excitement meeting ; while 
 some noble Christians have been caught in the net of 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 297 
 
 their device who are too proud to retract, lest they be 
 derided as " hard shells ." 
 
 They then call our attention to the articles adopted by 
 the " General Association of Kentucky Baptists" which 
 is a Missionary Baptist body that has been organized 
 since the split of the Baptists of 1832, and ask us to read 
 it carefully, and see how it chimes in with the Articles 
 upon which the Philadelphia Baptist Association was 
 organized, and then compare it with the Articles of the 
 Waldenses, and the Articles of the church in Wales, and 
 the Articles of the present Primitive Baptists. And they 
 then ask us as honest men to tell them who has departed 
 from the faith of the ancient Baptists, and who at present 
 with all of these testimonials, has a bona fide title to the 
 name, Primitive Baptist. 
 
 "Article First. — This body shall be called the General 
 Association of Kentucky Baptists. 
 
 "Article Second. — The payment of thirty dollars con- 
 stitutes a life membership. 
 
 " Article Third. — It shall be the duty of every member 
 to obtain leave of absence before leaving the Association, 
 and the Secretary shall give no certificate of membership 
 to a member who has not this leave, or who does not re- 
 main until the adjournment of the meeting. 
 
 " Article Fourth — The business of this body shall be 
 to promote State missions ; also the Home and Foreign 
 mission work under the Boards of the Southern Baptist 
 Convention ; also Bible and Book Colportage, Sunday 
 schools, and Literary and Theological seminaries in the 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 State, and to collect and preserve onr denominational 
 history; of Kentucky. 
 
 "Article Fifth. — This body shall exercise no ecclesias- 
 tical authority. 
 
 ' ' Article Sixth. — This body shah, on meeting annually, 
 elect by private ballot a Moderator, two Assistant Mod- 
 erators, and a Secretary, and Assistant Secretary, whose 
 duties shall be such as custom imposes upon their re- 
 spective officers. They shall hold their offices until super- 
 seded by successors. 
 
 " Article Seventh. — At each annual meeting the body 
 shall appoint an Executive Board consisting of fifteen 
 members, (five of whom shall constitute a quorum. | to 
 conduct its business during the intervals between its an- 
 nual meetings. They may appoint a Treasurer, a Cor- 
 responding Secretary, an Agent or Agents, and Mission- 
 aries and Evangelists : shall fix and pay their salaries, 
 and report their doings annually to this Board." 
 
 On page 13. is the following, under the head, "The 
 Total Work Performed by the General Association a 
 Auxiliary Bodies: Employed twenty-six missionaries 
 who preached about three thousand sermons, organized 
 nine churches, fifteen Sabbath schools, and had one 
 thousand and nine members added to the churches. We 
 raised for the support of these missionaries thirteen 
 thousand six hundred and seventy-one dollars and ninety- 
 two cents." 
 
 They then ask liberty to quote from Eld. J. B. Hardy, 
 of Kentucky, who in a debate with the Rev. Isham E. 
 
StfPPOSED INTERVIEW. &99 
 
 Wallace, of Missionary Baptist notoriety, upon church 
 identity, who admitted that his people would endorse 
 him, and consequently would endorse the foregoing 
 articles. Eld. Hardy said, (in reference to the above 
 articles and Association.) " Xow, brethren, if any of us 
 should want a life membership in this association it can 
 be had for the sum of thirty dollars. There is not an in- 
 dividual here but knows that such a thing as this is a 
 departure from the original principles of the Baptists. 
 There is not a single individual. I will venture to say. 
 within the sound of my voice, but knows that is so. If 
 we have not thirty dollars, that misfortune can be reme- 
 died, it would seem, from what follows, for here is what it 
 says : ' Annual members may take seats upon the pay- 
 ment of one dollar. Churches and associations auxiliary 
 to this body, by contributing to its objects annually, are 
 entitled to representation. ' I want to ask this intelligent 
 congregation, (for I stand before you to-day and say 
 as an honest man, before God, I do not want anything 
 but the truth. • was any such thing as this ever known 
 among the ancient Baptists ! I say we do not believe in 
 such as this, and the Old Baptists did not ; and conse- 
 quently we stand on their doctrine. vTe have not de- 
 parted from the original landmark upon which the Bap- 
 tists anciently stood. I have been reading histories con- 
 cerning these things for several years, and I have never 
 yet seen anything like this, where the admission into an 
 association of Baptists was dependent upon the payment 
 of one dollar cash in hand. I have never seen where a 
 
300 SUPPOSED DTTEKVIEW. 
 
 Baptist could become a life member of any association 
 on the payment of the sum of thirty dollars. I want to 
 show these Missionary Baptists their inconsistency here. 
 I want to show them what they are doing, for I am sure 
 they have not considered this thing. I know very well 
 that the people in these days and times are led altogether 
 too much by their teachers, and do not look and think 
 enough for themselves. Brother Smith up here asserted 
 publicly that the missionaries had such things among 
 them, and they gave him the he, and he had to prove it 
 conclusively before they would acknowledge it. Many 
 of- these Missionary Baptists are in the dark as to these 
 things ; they do not know to-day what is the doctrine of 
 then- denomination, but they depend entirely on their 
 preachers. Well, as to this association you can become 
 a life member for thirty dollars. But suppose after hav- 
 ing paid that sum of money a member should turn out 
 to be an immoral man or woman, a drunkard, or guilt y 
 of any great wickedness, what are they going to do with 
 him i He has certainly paid his money and is a life 
 member of the association. After having been admitted 
 for life, can they throw him out?" — Debate on Church 
 Identity, Hardy vs. Wallace, pages '244 to 24:7. 
 
 They then give us the date of the first Sunday school 
 that was ever taught in the world, that we have any 
 history of, and tell us who taught it, and that its first 
 purpose was grand and commendable, but that it was 
 soon perverted into a scheme of political and religious 
 heresy by designing persons, who were ambitious to ex- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 301 
 
 • 
 
 eel in the particular tenets of their political and religious 
 aspirations. And it is to-day galvanized with celebra- 
 tions and May-day festivals, to commit and enchant the 
 young and tender minds of each generation for religious 
 preferment and political supremacy. — (See Belcher, page 
 998.) And you will find that Bobert Raike, of Gloucester, 
 England, in the year 1781, established the first Sunday 
 school that history gives any account of. It would seem 
 that Raike was possessed with a warm and sympathetic 
 heart for the poor, and that he was moved by sympathy 
 and compassion to bestow some of his means upon a 
 concourse of poor, ragged girls and boys, whose parents 
 were too poor to educate, and perhaps some of them with- 
 out parents, who infested the streets with their rudeness 
 on each Sabbath day, to the annoyance of the populace. 
 Raike, in his sympathy for their rude and imperfect 
 training, determined if possible to induce them and their 
 parents to suffer him to give them the rudiments of a 
 literary education (not religious education), by sending 
 them to school each Sabbath at his expense. Raike 
 rented a room and hired teachers to promote the educa- 
 tion of these poor, penniless children. ! what a noble 
 act from a good and generous man, and how worthy of 
 emulation. But this is not the object of the Sabbath 
 schools of to-day : then object seems to be very different 
 to-day, and purports to the engendering of religious 
 sectarian preferment and hatred toward those who honest- 
 ly oppose their corruptions, but who desire, as did Raike, 
 the literary accomplishment of all the children of the 
 
302 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 nation, but desire to leave them free and untramnieled 
 from sectarian prejudices, allowing them the unlimited 
 prerogative to come to their own conclusions in matters 
 of religion, when they have minds sufficient to reason 
 for themselves, and then allow them to worship God 
 without restraint, according to the dictates of their 
 own conscience, without any advantage being taken of 
 their young and tender minds to entangle them, by de- 
 signing sectarian lords, to some particular religious 
 creed. 
 
 We here quote from Elder Hardy in one of his replies 
 to the Rev. Mr. Wallace, on the subject of Sabbath 
 schools. Elder Hardy said, "Such things as these prac- 
 ticed now-a-days, were unknown among the Baptists. 
 We, as Old Baptists, do not practice these things, and 
 the Baptists anciently did not practice them. People 
 can have Sunday schools if they want to, so far as I am 
 concerned ; but the point that I make is that the Bap- 
 tists in the olden days did not have such things. The 
 first Sunday school in America was organized on Jan- 
 uary the 11th, 1791, and the first Sunday school in Eng- 
 land was organized, we find, in 1781. It must be 
 admitted that Baptists were in existence long previous 
 to either of these dates. And in that connection I will 
 refer to a pamphlet that I have here, which is an ac- 
 count of the first national Baptist Sunday School Con- 
 vention, the first national convention that these people 
 ever had. I will read this in order to show you, when 
 any of you people go to these Sunday schools, what you 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 303 
 
 teach and what you are taught, and what the intention 
 of these institutions is. 
 
 " This is an extract from an address of the. Rev. A. E. 
 Dickinson, from Virginia : 
 
 " ' Brethren, let me urge you, as I would seek to urge 
 myself, to greater earnestness in the work of saving little 
 children. I would urge it by all the joys that come to 
 us in this world from saving little children.' — Page 26. 
 ' I heard of a Sunday school superintendent that had 
 been out looking up little ones and bringing them into 
 the Sunday school, where one after another was con- 
 verted. One day he was sent for to see a little child. 
 The little boy said to him, ' I want to thank you, the 
 last thing before I leave this world. When I go to 
 heaven. I am going to tell Jesus it was you that put me 
 in the way to heaven. It was you who saved me ; and 
 I am going to look out for you when you get up there. 
 I will meet you. and take you by the hand, and carry 
 you to Jesus, and say, Lord Jesus, here is the man that 
 put me in the way to heaven.' 0, I tell you, that super- 
 intendent went away with his heart almost bursting 
 with joy at the thought of meeting that little fellow up 
 at the pearly gate ! If we are faithful, if these Christian 
 workers from the Xorth and South, and East and West, 
 are faithful in this work, laboring to save the little 
 children, when you get up yonder at the shining gate 
 you will be surprised ; for they will come from every 
 direction. Every one will want to take you by the hand 
 and thev will say, ' Come, I want to carrv vou to Jesus.' 
 
304 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW, 
 
 They will say, ' Lord Jesus, here is the man, and here is 
 the woman, that put me in the way to heaven.' 
 
 "Now, did the ancient Baptists ever have any such 
 thing as set out here ? Did the ancient Baptists ever 
 tolerate such a thing as this ? Certainly not ; and let 
 me tell you, true Baptists to-day will not allow it. These 
 are not the means by which sinners are saved at all. 
 Here we are told of one of these little cherubs going to 
 heaven and telling Jesus this and that, just as though 
 Jesus did not know anything at all about it. The ques- 
 tion arises right here, is it our business to teach little 
 children respecting the great character of God in this 
 manner ? 
 
 " I will refer to one of their Sunday school papers, 
 showing you what these peoi^ teach little children. 
 The caption is ' Questions for^he Youngest.' ' Little . 
 ones, Jesus loves you. He died to save you. Ought you 
 not to love him ? Ought you not to try to live for him 
 and please him ? If you love him, you will. How mean 
 and selfish it is for us to live just to please ourselves, 
 and not to please Jesus. If we love him, we will not do 
 so. If we love him we will be new creatures, and try to 
 do what will please Jesus all the time. Those who do 
 not love God are God's enemies. God is angry with 
 them. Jesus came and died to make God and them 
 friends. For his sake God is willing to forgive and save 
 them, if they will let him. They beg you to be recon- 
 ciled to God.' I do not believe God's ministers ever use 
 any such arguments to children, or to anybody else. It 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 305 
 
 is not what God's preachers were sent to do, to tell them 
 that He would save them if they would only let him. 
 Certainly such ideas were never promulgated in ancient 
 days. There is nothing in the Bible that authorizes any 
 such thing to be preached. For God's sake, brother 
 Wallace, do not talk about the Primitive Baptists teach- 
 ing little children any such stuff as this. What wonder 
 is it if I do not send my children to Sunday school ? I 
 certainly do not want my children to be taught any such 
 nonsense as I find here ; and it is just such as this, I have 
 no doubt, that is found to-day in the Sunday schools. 
 For my part I do not want my children to be taught 
 that God made them, and after He did make them that 
 they are more powerful than God Himself." — Debate on 
 Church Identity, by Hardy and Wallace, pages 277 to 
 279. 
 
 These Old Baptists further claim that after the mar- 
 riage of the Arminian Baptists to the Predestinarian 
 Baptists (prior to the year 1792), the Arminian element, 
 as usual, became much the strongest, and organized the 
 first Baptist Missionary Society that was ever known 
 among the Baptists from the days of the apostles to the 
 time of its organization in the year 1792, which they say 
 was the entering wedge to the divorce that took place in 
 the year 1832. They then refer us to the "Life and 
 death of the Rev. Andrew Fuller" page 139. "A resolution 
 was printed in this year's Letter, that a plan be prepared 
 against the next ministers' meeting at Kettering, for 
 forming a Baptist Society for Propagating the Gospel 
 
306 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 among the Heathen. Brother Carey generously engaged 
 to devote all the profits that might arise from his late 
 publications on this interesting subject to the use of 
 such a society. This society was actually formed in 
 Mrs. Beeby Wallis' back parlor, on October 2d, 1792, 
 as all the friends of the Baptist Mission know." 
 
 Now, sir, they ask us if this was not a departure from 
 primitive customs, and if any of the ancient Predestin- 
 arian Baptists in any of their circular letters or articles 
 of faith ever held out the idea that heathens were dying 
 and going to hell for want of the gospel. They say that 
 it cannot be shown from sacred, nor profane history, 
 and that the Old Baptists of to-day occupy the same 
 grounds as the Primitive Christians, and that they justly 
 have a bona fide title to the name Primitive Baptist. 
 
 They say that there is some discrepancy as to who 
 constituted the first Baptist church in America ; some 
 contending that Dr. Clark was the founder of the first 
 Baptist church, and some contending for Eoger Wil- 
 liams ; hence, the enemies of the Old Baptists claim that 
 there is a missing link in their apostolic succession that 
 cannot be repaired. But they claim that this discrep- 
 ancy cuts no figure in the case, as it is principle that 
 they are contending for ; and admitting that both of 
 these ministers did establish churches near the same 
 date, that the principle was the same, and that history 
 amply proves that they and their churches afterwards 
 became united. 
 
 It is further claimed that the baptism of Roger Wil- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 307 
 
 liams was not valid, because he was baptized by a lay- 
 member, who was not a legal administrator of the ordi- 
 nance ; but many of them say that in the absence of a 
 legal administrator, and under circumstances where one 
 could not be procured, and in the solemn and humble 
 manner that history records the baptism of Eoger Wil- 
 liams, he and his brethren calling upon the God of 
 heaven to solemnize the act of baptism to each of them, 
 and unite them into a church after the pattern of Christ, 
 was by faith sufficient testimony to the Lord of their 
 sincerity, and hence the legality of their baptism was by 
 faith accepted of the Lord, and was as valid in the sight 
 of the Lord, as was the baptism of the Savior by John, 
 who had not been baptized by regular succession ; hence, 
 if John's baptism was valid, so was Ezekiel Holliman's, 
 who baptized Roger Williams. 
 
 It is further claimed by some historians that Eoger 
 Williams afterwards went off religiously with the Quak- 
 ers. "Mr. Benedict thinks he (Williams) remained 
 pastor of the little church four years and then joined the 
 Quakers." "Dr. Clark was then the founder of the first 
 Baptist church in America, at Newport, in 1638," and 
 that the church set up by Williams was in 1639. — See 
 Cox's History, page 530. 
 
 These Old Baptists do not deny that Dr. Clark organ- 
 ized a church as well as Williams ; but they deny his 
 (Williams') affiliation with the Quakers, and propose to 
 prove by standard historians that the accusation is a 
 persecution, although corroborated by some historians, 
 
308 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and that the preponderance of historical testimony is in 
 favor of Eoger Williams living and dying in the faith 
 and fellowship of the Old Baptists, as well as being in 
 favor of his being the founder of the first Baptist church 
 in the original colonies. 
 
 " At a session of the general court of the colony, held 
 in 1631, a law was passed restricting the right of suf- 
 frage. It was enacted that none but members of the 
 church should be permitted to vote at the colonial elec- 
 tions. The choice of governor, deputy-governor, and 
 assistant councilors was thus placed in the hands of a 
 small minority. Nearly three-fourths of the people were 
 excluded from exercising the rights of freemen. Taxes 
 were levied for the support of the gospel ; oaths of 
 obedience to the magistrates were required ; attendance 
 on public worship was enforced by law ; none but church 
 members were eligible to offices of trust. It is strange 
 indeed that the very men who had so recently through 
 perils by sea and land escaped with only their lives, to 
 find religious freedom in another continent, should have 
 begun their career with intolerance and proscription. 
 The only excuse that can be found for the gross incon- 
 sistency and injustice of such legislation is that bigotry 
 was the vice of the age rather than of the Puritans. 
 
 ' ' One manly voice was lifted up against this odious 
 statute. It was the voice of young Roger Williams, 
 minister of Salem. To this man belongs the shining 
 honor of being the first in America or in Europe to pro- 
 claim the full gospel of religious toleration. He declared 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 309 
 
 to his people that the conscience of man may in no wise 
 be bound by the authority of the magistrates ; that civil 
 government has only to do with civil matters, such as 
 the collection of taxes, the restraint and punishment of 
 crime, and the protection of all men in the enjoyment 
 of equal rights. For these noble utterances he was 
 obliged to quit the ministry of the church at Salem, and 
 retire to Plymouth. Finally, in 1634, he wrote a paper 
 in which the declaration was made that grants of land, 
 though given by the King of England, were invalid 
 until the natives were justly recompensed. This was 
 equivalent to saying that the colonial charter itself was 
 void, and that the people were really living upon the 
 lands of the Indians. Great excitement was occasioned 
 by the publication, and Williams consented that for the 
 sake of public peace the paper should be burned. But 
 he continued to teach his doctrines, saying that compul- 
 sory attendance at religious worship, as well as taxation 
 for the support of the ministry, was contrary to the 
 teachings of the gospel. When arraigned for these bad 
 doctrines, he crowned his offences by telling the court- 
 that a test of church membership in a voter or a public 
 officer was as ridiculous as the selection of a doctor of 
 physic or the pilot of a ship on account of his skill in 
 theology. These assertions raised such a storm in court 
 that "Williams was condemned for heresy and banished 
 from the colony. In the dead of winter he left home 
 and became an exile in the desolate forest. For fourteen 
 weeks he wandered on through the snow, sleeping at 
 
310 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 night on the ground or in a hollow tree, living on 
 parched corn, acorns and roots. He carried with him 
 one precious treasure, a private letter from Governor 
 Winthrop, giving him words of cheer and encourage- 
 ment. Nor did the Indians fail to show their gratitude 
 to the man who had so nobly defended their rights. In 
 the country of the Wampanoags he was kindly enter- 
 tained. 
 
 " Massasoit -invited him to his cabin at Pokanoket, 
 and Canonicus, king of the Narragansetts, received him 
 as a friend and brother. On the left bank of Blackstone 
 Eiver near the head of Narragansett Bay a resting 
 place was at last found ; the exile pitched his tent, and 
 with the opening of spring planted a field and built the 
 first house in the village of Seekonk. Soon the informa- 
 tion came that he was still within the territory of 
 Plymouth colony, and another removal became necessary. 
 With five companions who had joined him in banish- 
 ment he embarked in a canoe, passed down the river and 
 crossed to the west side of the bay. Here he was safe ; 
 his enemies could hunt him no farther. 
 
 "A tract of land was honorably purchased from Canoni- 
 cus : and in June of 1636, the illustrious founder of 
 Rhode Island laid out the city of Providence. 
 
 " Meanwhile, his teachings were bearing fruit in Mas- 
 sachusetts. In 1634 a representative form of govern- 
 ment was established against the oppression of the 
 clergy. On election-day the voters, now numbering 
 between three and four hundred, were called together, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 311 
 
 and the learned Cotton preached powerfully and long 
 against the proposed change. The assembly listened 
 attentively, and then went on with the election. To 
 make reform complete, a Ballot-Box was substituted for 
 the old method of public voting. The restriction on the 
 right of suffrage was the only remaining bar to a per- 
 fect system of self-government in New England." Bid- 
 path 9 s History of the United States, pages 128 to 130. 
 
 "The banishment of Eoger Williams, instead of 
 bringing peace, brought strife and dissension to the peo- 
 ple of Massachusetts. The ministers were stern and ex- 
 acting, every shade of popular belief was closely scrut- 
 inized, the slightest departure from orthodox doctrine 
 was met with a charge of heresy, and to be a heretic 
 was to become an outcast. Still the advocates of free 
 opinion multiplied. The clergy, notwithstanding their 
 great influence among the people, felt insecure. Beligi- 
 ous debates became the order of the day. Every sermon 
 had to pass the ordeal of review and criticism. 
 
 " Most prominent among those who were said to be ' as 
 bad as Eoger Williams, or worse,' was Mrs. Anne 
 Hutchinson, a woman of genius who had come over in 
 the ship with Sir Henry Vam. She desired the privilege 
 of speaking at the weekly debates, and was refused. 
 Wornen had no business at these assemblies, said the 
 elders. Indignant at this, she became the champion of 
 her sex, and declared that the ministers who were de- 
 frauding women of the gospel were no better than 
 Pharisees, She called meetings of her friends, spoke 
 
312 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 much in public and pleaded with great fervor for the 
 full freedom of conscience. The liberal doctrines of the 
 exiled Williams were reaffirmed with more power and 
 eloquence than ever. Many of the magistrates were 
 converted to the new beliefs. The governor himself 
 espoused the cause of Mrs. Hutchinson, and a majority 
 of the people of Boston inclined to her opinions." — Bid- 
 path, pages 130 and 131. 
 
 "Mrs Hutchinson and her friends were declared un- 
 fit for the society of Christians, and banished from the 
 territory of Massachusetts. With a large number of 
 friends the exiles wended their way toward the home of 
 Eoger Williams." — Ridpath, page 132. 
 
 " Eoger Williams belonged to that most radical body 
 of dissenters called Anabaptists. By them the validity 
 of infant baptism was denied. Williams himself had 
 been baptized in infancy ; but his views in regard to the 
 value of the ceremony had undergone a change during 
 his ministry at Salem. Now that he had freed himself 
 from all foreign authority, both of church and state, he 
 conceived it to be his duty to receive a second baptism. 
 But who should perform the ceremony ? Ezekiel Holli- 
 man, a layman, was selected for the sacred duty. Wil- 
 liams meekly received the rite at the hands of his friend, 
 and then in turn baptized him and ten other exiles of 
 the colony. Such was the organization of the first Bap- 
 tist church in America." — Ridpath, page 193. 
 
 They then refer us to McCabe's Centennial History of 
 the United States, (pages 172 to 179,) which testifies to 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 313 
 
 the same facts in regard to Roger Williams and Mrs. 
 Anne Hutchinson, and their protests against the magis- 
 trates controlling and blending Christianity to suit the 
 convenience of the church members who were only 
 allowed suffrage in election. Also setting forth their 
 banishment from religious society as heretics for their 
 religious opinions. 
 
 They then carry us to Grimshaw's History of the 
 Eevolutionary war, and the first settling of the colonies. 
 "The Anabaptists were the next objects of persecution. 
 Many of these were disfranchised, and some were ban- 
 ished. But as oppression again created what it was in- 
 tended to destroy, the court judged it expedient to with- 
 draw it, and persecution for a while ceased." — Grim- 
 shaw, page 55. 
 
 " This fanatical spirit continued to increase. But the 
 next transaction was more puerile than injurious ; rather 
 a subject of amusement than a matter of alarm. A 
 minister in Salem, named Eoger Williams, having con- 
 conceived an aversion to the cross of St. George, a sym- 
 bol in the Standard of England, declaimed against it 
 with so much vehemence, as a relic of superstition and 
 idolatry which ought not to be retained amongst a peo- 
 ple so sanctified and pure, that Endicott in a transport 
 of zeal cut out the cross from the ensign displayed before 
 the governor's gate. This frivolous matter interested 
 and divided the colony. Some of the militia were now 
 unwilling to follow a standard in which there was a 
 cross lest they should do honor to an idol ; others refused 
 
314 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 to serve under a mutilated banner lest they should be 
 suspected of having renounced their allegiance to the 
 crown of England. The contest was at length ended by 
 a compromise. The cross was retained in the ensigns of 
 forts and vessels, but erased from the colors of the 
 militia. 
 
 " The restless disposition of Williams had caused his 
 banishment from Salem, a circumstance to which is 
 owing, in 1636, the foundation of another State : for so 
 great was the attachment of his hearers that many ac- 
 companied him in his exile." — Grimshaw, pages 48 and 
 49. 
 
 Now, sir, they quote these authors not only to prove 
 to us that Roger Williams constituted the first Baptist 
 church in America, but to show us that we are indebted 
 to the Old Baptists for our religious and political freedom 
 that we enjoy to-day, through the medium of their 
 American antecedent, Roger Williams ; and that the 
 persecutions that are heaped upon them by their enemies 
 only prove them to be the church of Christ, as exem- 
 plified by the persecutions of Roger Williams, Mrs. Anne 
 Hutchinson, and all their antecedents back to the apos- 
 tles. And that it further exemplifies that their perse- 
 cutors would with the same effrontery have the Old Bap- 
 tists of to-day exiled, were it not for the laws enacted 
 through the influence and examples of Roger Williams 
 incouched in the Constitution of the United States guar- 
 anteeing to them religious and political freedom. They 
 then take the depositions of the Rev. Roswell D. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 315 
 
 Hitchcock, who says, " Baptists — Who hold that a per- 
 sonal profession of faith and an immersion in water are 
 essential to baptism. They claim that they have existed 
 as Christian communities from the days of the apostles, 
 and have held pure the doctrines and ordinances of the 
 gospel through all ages. The first Baptist church in 
 America was founded by Roger Williams, in Providence, 
 E. I., in 1639." — HitchcocWs Analysis of the Bible, page 
 HIT. Then in order to prove that Mr. Benedict and Mr. 
 Cox are not faithful historians, and that they were 
 swayed by preferment to persecute Roger Williams as 
 being unstable in his fidelity to the Old Baptists, in going 
 off religiously with the Quakers, they bring up the most 
 authentic Cyclopedia of the nation, and challenge the 
 testimony of Mr. Benedict and Mr. Cox. 
 
 " Roger Williams, the founder of the colony of Rhode 
 Island, born in Wales in 1599, (and not in 1606, as sup- 
 posed by Dr. Elton,) died in Rhode Island, in 1683. At 
 an early age he went to London, and attracted by his 
 shorthand notes of sermons, and of speeches in the Star 
 Chamber, the attention of Sir Edward Coke, who sent 
 him to Sutton's hospital, now the Charterhouse, of which 
 he was elected a scholar, July 25, 1621, and obtained an 
 exhibition July 9, 1624. According to Arnold, the his- 
 torian of Rhode Island, he was admitted to Pembroke 
 College, Cambridge, Jan. 29, 1623, and matriculated pen- 
 sioner July 7, 1625. He took the degree of B. A. in Jan- 
 uary, 1627. There is a tradition that he studied law ; 
 but if so, it could have been for a short time only, for it 
 
316 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 is certain that he had been a clergyman of the church of 
 England, when at the close of 1630 he embarked for 
 America. He became a Puritan of the extreme wing, 
 and of that* section of the wing whose tendencies toward 
 the views of the Baptists were the immediate occasion of 
 the rapid rise of that denomination in England. Arriv- 
 ing at Boston, Feb. 5, 1631, accompanied by his wife 
 Mary, he soon incurred the hostility of the authorities, 
 chiefly by denying that the magistrates had a right to 
 punish for any but civil offences, and shortly went to 
 Salem to become the assistant of Pastor Skelton. The 
 general court remonstrated against his settlement there, 
 and complained that he had refused ' to join with the con- 
 gregation at Boston because they would not make a pub- 
 lic declaration of their repentance for having communion 
 with the churches of England while they lived there ; ' 
 and besides this ' had declared his opinion that the magis- 
 trate might not punish a breach of the Sabbath, nor any 
 other offence, as it was a breach of the first table.' The 
 objections of Williams to the church of England were, 
 first, that it was composed of pious and worldly men in- 
 discriminately ; and, second, that it assumed authority 
 over the conscience, and was persecuting. The first of 
 these objections the Puritans of Boston shared theoreti- 
 cally with Williams. But while Williams was practi- 
 cally a consistent and rigid separatist from the beginning, 
 his Puritan brethren were, in his view, chargeable with 
 inconsistency and unseemly concessions. The second 
 objection assailed the theocracy which his brethren 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 317 
 
 themselves were rearing on the shores of New England. 
 His ministry at Salem was brief ; before the close of 
 summer persecution obliged him to retire to Plymouth, 
 where for two years he was the assistant of the Pastor, 
 Ealph Smith. Here, too, he formed acquaintance with 
 leading chiefs of the Indians, and gained a knowledge of 
 their language. He was invited to return to Salem, and 
 become the assistant and then the successor of Skelton ; 
 and his enemies affirm that ' in one year's time he filled 
 that place with principles of rigid separation, tending to 
 Anabaptistry.' In the autumn of 1635 the general court 
 banished him from the colony, ordering him to depart 
 within six weeks, because he had called in question the 
 authority of magistrates in respect to two things, one re- 
 lating to the right of the King to appoint and grant the 
 lands of the Indians without purchase, and the other to 
 the right of the civil power to impose faith and worship. 
 On the first of these points Williams at one time made 
 explanations that were deemed satisfactory : on the other 
 the divergence was hopeless, the ministers who gave 
 their advice at the request of the court declaring that 
 opinions which would not allow the magistrate to inter- 
 meddle, even to restrain a church from heresy or apos- 
 tacy, were not to be endured, and he, on the other hand, 
 maintaining with inflexible vigor the absolute and eternal 
 distinction between the spheres of the civil government 
 and the Christian church. In reply to the charges and 
 in defence of his views Williams published a pamphlet 
 entitled, l Mr. Cotton's Letter Examined and Ansivered. 9 
 
318 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 The period allowed him to prepare for his departure had 
 been extended to the coming spring. But his doctrines 
 were spreading, and his purpose of founding a colony 
 close at hand and embodying his principles, had become 
 known. It was therefore determined to send him to 
 England at once, and a small vessel was despatched to 
 Salem to bring him away. But he was forewarned, and 
 had left before the vessel arrived. In midwinter, aban- 
 doning his friends and his family, ' Sorely tossed for 
 fourteen weeks, not knowing what bread or bed did 
 mean,' he had gone through the wilderness to the shores 
 of the Narragansett. After purchasing lands of Ousame- 
 quin on the eastern shore of the Seekonk river, and 
 planting his corn, he learned that he was within the 
 bounds of Plymouth colony, and set out with five com- 
 panions on new explorations. In a canoe they went 
 down the stream, turned the extremity of the peninsula, 
 and ascended the river which forms its western bound- 
 ary, to a spot which tradition has consecrated as their 
 landing. ' I having made covenant of peaceable neigh- 
 borhood with all the sachems and nations round about 
 us/ says Williams, ' and having a sense of God's merci- 
 ful providence unto me in my distress, called the place 
 Providence, I desired it might be for a shelter for persons 
 distressed for conscience. ' The fundamental article of 
 government, establishing a pure democracy, with abso- 
 lute inhibition of control over the consciences of men, 
 which persons admitted to this corporation were required 
 to sign, was in these words : ' We whose names are 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 319 
 
 hereunder, desirous to inhabit in the town of Providence, 
 do promise to subject ourselves, in active or passive obedi- 
 ence, to all such orders or agreements as shall be made for 
 public good of the body, in an orderly way, by the major 
 consent of the present inhabitants, masters of families, 
 incorporated together in a town fellowship, and others 
 whom they shall admit unto the same, only in civil 
 things.' The method of planting the first church in 
 Providence, now known as the first Baptist church in 
 that city, answers to views touching that matter which 
 had been set forth by early English Baptists in Holland, 
 fugitives from persecutions in England, who had been 
 likewise teachers of Williams in respect to the rights of 
 conscience. These Baptists had instituted baptism 
 among themselves by authorizing certain of their own 
 number to be administrators of the rite. At Providence, 
 in March, 1639, Ezekiel Holliman, a layman, first bap- 
 tized Williams, and then Williams baptized Holliman, 
 'and some ten more.' But Williams seems to have had 
 early doubts of the validity of the proceeding ; at any 
 rate, he soon withdrew from his associates in this meas- 
 ure. Various explanations of his withdrawing have 
 been given, and prominent among these the absence of 
 ' a visible succession ' of authorized administrators of the 
 rite of baptism. The history of Eoger Williams, for the 
 succeeding half century, is the history of Providence and 
 of Ehode Island. The colony was for some years a pure 
 democracy, transacting its public business in town meet- 
 ings ; but in 1643 Williams was sent to England to pro- 
 
320 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 cure a charter. He was successful, and returned in 1644. 
 On his voyage to England he wrote his ' Key into the 
 Languages of America,' including observations on the 
 manners, habits, laws, and religion of the Indian tribes. 
 He also published there 'The Bloody Tenent of Persecution 
 for cause of conscience discussed in a Conference between 
 Truth and Peace.' (New ed. Providence, 1867.) On the 
 occurrence of new difficulties in the colony, he was again 
 sent to England, in 1651, and was equally successful. 
 While abroad the second time he published * Experiments 
 of Spiritual Life and Healthy and their Preservatives,' 
 which he says was written ' in the thickest of the native 
 Indians of America, in their very wild houses, and by 
 their barbarous fires.' ' The Hireling Ministry none of 
 Christ's, or a Discourse Touching the Propagating the 
 Gospel of Christ Jesus,' and ' The Bloody Tenent yet More 
 Bloody, by Mr. Cotton's Endeavor to wash it White in 
 the Blood of the Lamb. ' He also engaged in teaching, and 
 was intimate with Milton. His employments, as well as 
 the scope and character of his learning, are thus indi- 
 cated in a letter written to Gov. Winthrop, of Connecti- 
 cut, soon after his return : ' It pleased the Lord to call 
 me for some time and with some persons to practice the 
 Hebrew, the Greek, Latin, French and Dutch. The 
 Secretary of the council, (Mr. Milton,) for my Dutch I 
 read him, read me many more languages. Grammar 
 rules began to be esteemed a tyranny. I taught two 
 young gentlemen, a parliament man's sons, as we teach 
 our children English, by words, phrases, and constant 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 321 
 
 talk/ etc. He returned to Khode Island in 1654, and in 
 September of the same year was elected president of the 
 colony, an office which he held for two years and a half. 
 He refused to persecute the Quakers, but in 1672 he met 
 three of the most eminent preachers of the sect in public 
 debate at Newport, and afterwards published a contro- 
 versal work entitled ' George Fox digged out of his Bur- 
 rows.'" — American Cyclopedia, Vol. xvi., pages 639 and 
 640. 
 
 Now, sir, they say that this is positive proof that he 
 never espoused the religious tenets of the Quakers, as 
 accused by Mr. Benedict and Mr. Cox. And while he 
 had conscientious scruples as to the Apostolic succession 
 of his baptism, and hence doubted its validity as an 
 honest Christian, yet he never departed from the princi- 
 ples and faith of the Old Baptists, but from the time of 
 his conversion to the doctrines of the primitive Chris- 
 tians, he earnestly contended for the faith and practices 
 of the ancient Baptists until his death. 
 
 Now, sir, as they seem to be so well fortified in histor- 
 ical facts, and have so little trouble in tracing their iden- 
 tity back to the apostles, and can prove their principles 
 and articles of faith to be identical with the principles 
 and articles of faith as held to by the Primitive Chris- 
 tians, we much desire your kind admonitions, so that we 
 may prevent a public exposition of our principles and 
 practice. We further desire that you give us your views 
 as to their reasons for discarding one of the most ancient 
 and honorable moral institutions of the world from the 
 
322 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 church. We allude to Free and Accepted Masonry, 
 which is surely of divine origin, and was instituted under 
 the auspices of God, by Solomon, King of Israel, Hiram, 
 King of Tyre, and Hiram Abiff , a widow's son of the 
 tribe of Naphtali, representing the Father, Son and Holy 
 Spirit. 
 
 Armenian's God. — My much esteemed and ever zeal- 
 ous friends, I hope to be able to gratify every desire of 
 your honest and devoted hearts. There has been a 
 peculiar and ignorant sect of people from the days of 
 antiquity to the present that has presumed at all ages of 
 the world to gainsay the principles and intelligence of 
 me and my ministers ; but many times we have reduced 
 them until they were very few in numbers, and to our 
 great annoyance they have ever contended that the most 
 of the vital principles of the religion of my disciples was 
 of the head and not of the heart. And by tradition this 
 same element of ignorance has been handed down from 
 generation to generation, and are to-day the people that 
 these Old Baptists represent, and claim to be so closely 
 identified with by religious and spiritual affinity. Thus 
 far I have failed to extinguish them, but would warn 
 you, together with all intelligent Christians, to evade 
 them and shun their society and teachings as you would 
 the poisonous asp, lest you and your children become 
 poisoned with their heresy and sit complacently upon 
 the stool of do-nothing, to be finally swallowed up in 
 endless despair. 
 
 I would further advise you that when they expose 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 323 
 
 your errors and evasions of the word of God, to their 
 congregations, and prove you to be wrong according to 
 the teachings of the Bible, that you pretend to get 
 mad, and accuse them of fighting, and denounce what 
 they say as a perversion and an insult, and that in con- 
 sequence of which you will refuse to attend their meet- 
 ings, giving yourselves and children ample reasons for 
 staying away, rather than subjecting yourselves to their 
 ridicule. You should also refuse to be social with them, 
 only by way of ridicule, only at such times as you are 
 compelled to recognize them or expose your refinement 
 and raising. By thus treating them you will be able to 
 force them to compromise what they claim to be truth 
 by withdrawing your friendship and society from them. 
 
 And as to Ancient Free and Accepted Masonry, they 
 say that in the days of its origin, it was only a represen- 
 tation of divine appointment, to represent a grand and 
 magnificent antitype, which is the spiritual kingdom of 
 the church of Christ, both militant and triumphant. 
 And that since the coming of Christ and the setting up 
 of his kingdom (the church) Masonry is as dead to the 
 church as is the law of circumcision ; and the coming of 
 Christ and the setting up of his church was a complete 
 fulfillment of all the types, shadows and ceremonies, and 
 that by the eternal priesthood of Christ the Levitical 
 priesthood of Aaron was abolished, and the temporal 
 covenant with the fathers by the eternal covenant of the 
 gospel was established. 
 
 "But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, 
 
324 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 by how much also He is the mediator of a better cove- 
 nant, which was established upon better promises. For 
 if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no 
 place have been sought for the second." — Heb. viii. 6, 7. 
 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, 
 and not the very image of the things, can never with 
 those sacrifices, which they offered year by year contin- 
 ually, make the comers thereunto perfect." — Heb. x. 1. 
 But that Masonry is one of the noblest institutions that 
 was ever instituted by man, and that it belongs to the 
 world, and that it is one of the greatest levers to moral- 
 ity that is known to the world, outside of the church of 
 Jesus Christ, and that the church is the substance of the 
 shadow that Masonry typifies ; and that the regenerated 
 members of Christ's kingdom, who have been baptized 
 into the church of Christ, have been initiated into a 
 higher order of Masonry by the attributes and authority 
 of the three Grand Officers of that spiritual building, 
 that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, 
 characterized by the name of Father, Son and Holy 
 Spirit, which is the antitype to the church of Christ, of 
 the founders of Masonry, in the persons of Solomon, 
 King of Israel, Hiram, King of Tyre, and Hiram Abiff, 
 a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali. And that hold- 
 ing to a shadow when you are in possession of the sub- 
 stance, shows a manifest want of faith in the existence 
 or availability of the substance. And that they are 
 commanded by the authority of high heaven to come 
 out from the world and its institutions, and be a separ- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 325 
 
 ate people, for they cannot serve God and mammon 
 simultaneously. And that Masonry since the coming of 
 Christ, is an institution of the world, and that the 
 church must stand unsullied, and must not be corrupted 
 by the puny institutions of man. 
 
 Note — Our Masonic Brethren need not be alarmed : we regard our 
 obligation as being too sacred to divulge any of the secrets of "An- 
 cient Free and Accepted Masonry," unlawfully. We have been a 
 Master Mason nearly thirty years, a part of which time we had the 
 honor of being Master of the Lodge to which we belonged. The Chap- 
 ter Degrees was conferred upon us A. D. 1864, and we were soon elected 
 to the position of " Captain of the Host." We now propose to deal with 
 the principles, and not the secrets of Masonry. We propose to show 
 that Masonry was instituted in the days of Solomon, who was then 
 King of Israel, and that the Temple of Solomon was a type of the 
 church triumphant, and that the coming of Christ and the setting up of 
 his church was a complete fulfillment of the designs of the Temple ; 
 and hence modern Masonry is nothing more than a moral institution 
 of the world, and a shadow of the church of Christ ; and that the saints 
 who have been initiated into the church of Christ have received a 
 higher order of Masonry, and hence have no further use for the shadow 
 of Christianity, they being in the possession and enjoyment of the 
 substance, which is the "covering grip" to all the charities, types and 
 shadows as taught in Masonry. We have not visited a Masonic Lodge 
 in about eight years, nor do we expect to visit another, without our 
 obligation compels us to do so, believing that God for Christ's sake has 
 illuminated our spiritual understanding and given us insight to a 
 higher order of Masonry, and killed us to the love of types and shadows. 
 "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that ye may know 
 what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his 
 inheritance in the saints." — Eph. i. 18. S. M. C. 
 
326 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Many of these Old Baptists have once belonged to the 
 Lodge, and some of them are bright Masons ; and al- 
 though they have abandoned the Lodge, and identified 
 themselves with these Old Baptists, yet they are Masons 
 and we cannot erase the secrets, obligations nor princi- 
 ples from their memory ; and, in fact, they are the most 
 consistent in their Masonic deportment of any other class 
 of members. They seem to be well skilled in the tenets 
 and laws of Masonry, and can with apparent ease refer 
 to Mackey and other Masonic historians and trace 
 Masonry back by Masonic tradition, to the building of 
 King Solomon's Temple, and make the traditional 
 history of Masonry harmonize beautifully with the 
 history of the building of the Temple, as recorded in the 
 books of First and Second Chronicles and First and 
 Second Kings in the Bible. 
 
 They say that there was not a particle of work done 
 by any person or persons, nor a command given by the 
 three grand officers, nor a design left upon record, in the 
 building of this grand edifice, under the auspices and in 
 commemoration of God, that was not a type of some 
 grand antitype that pointed to the advent, death, burial 
 and resurrection of Jesus Christ, together with the set- 
 ting up of his church, the quickening influence of the 
 Holy Spirit in the hearts of the saints, their travail from 
 nature, to grace, their initiation into the church of Christ 
 and their final resting place in the Holy of Holies. 
 
 And that the institution of Masonry, according to 
 Masonic tradition, was instituted under the auspices of 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. §27 
 
 God, by Solomon, King of Israel, whose wisdom was a 
 type of the wisdom of God in contriving the plan and 
 grandeur of the temple ; Hiram, King of Tyre, whose 
 wealth was a type of the wealth of the world, in supply- 
 ing the means for the building of the grand structure ; 
 and Hiram Abiff. a widow's son of the tribe of Xaphtali, 
 was the grand architect, whose poverty as .a poor 
 widow's son would typify the poverty of Jesus Christ 
 while on earth, and his genius in setting up the antitype 
 of the temple, his church, and its final consummation at 
 the end of time, together with its minuteness and gran- 
 deur, when all the saints are brought into the body of 
 Christ in the completion of that grand temple of God, 
 that temple not made with hands, but eternal in the 
 heavens. 
 
 Therefore those three personages, according to Masonic 
 tradition, were the founders of Ancient Free and 
 Accepted Masonry, who are said in Masonry to be the 
 three grand representatives of the Father, Son and Holy 
 Spirit. 
 
 They further claim that the natural symbols as taken 
 from the quarries and forests of nature, in then rude 
 and imperfect state, and then preparation by the 
 bearers of burdens and sculptors of art that had been 
 furnished for the preparation of these elected stones and 
 timbers, who prepared and numbered every piece that 
 was to be worked into this moral edifice, precisely after 
 the designs of the Grand Architect, so that there would 
 be no schisms nor divisions in its erection, but that everv 
 
328 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 piece should positively fit the precise place for which it 
 was intended, without any vacant places, or unnecessary 
 protuberances, is a complete figure of the body of Christ, 
 when all the elected saints shall be fitly prepared under 
 the direction of Jesus Christ, when they have been 
 plucked from nature's night and translated into the fight 
 and liberty of the gospel of Jesus Christ, having been 
 prepared by the Grand Architect of heaven, and squared 
 and numbered for that spiritual building, whose maker 
 and builder is God ; so that they will fit in the body of 
 Christ with that exact nicety that the prepared natural 
 stones and timbers did fit in that grand moral edifice as 
 built by King Solomon in commemoration of God. 
 
 " And Solomon numbered all the strangers that were 
 in the land of Israel, after the numbering wherewith 
 David his father had numbered them ; and they were 
 found a hundred and fifty thousand and three thousand 
 and six hundred. And he set threescore and ten thou- 
 sand of them to be bearers of burdens, and fourscore 
 thousand to be hewers in the mountains, and three thou- 
 sand and six hundred overseers to set the people awork." 
 — II Chron. ii. 17, 18. " And Solomon had threescore 
 and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thou- 
 sand hewers in the mountains ; besides the chief of 
 Solomon's officers which were over the work, three 
 thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the 
 people that wrought in the work. And the King com- 
 manded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, 
 and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house. 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 329 
 
 And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew 
 them, and the stone-squarers ; so they prepared timber 
 and stones to build the house." — I Kings v. 15, 18. 
 "Now all the work of Solomon was prepared unto the 
 day of the foundation of the house of the Lord, and 
 until it was finished. So the house of the Lord was 
 perfected." — II Chron. viii. 16. 
 
 "And King Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of 
 Tyre. He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, 
 and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass ; 
 and he was filled with wisdom and understanding, and 
 cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to 
 King Solomon, and wrought all his work." — I Kings vii. 
 13, 14. "And Solomon sent to Hiram, the King of 
 Tyre, saying, As thou didst deal with David my father, 
 and didst send him cedars to build him a house to dwell 
 therein, even so deal with me." — II Chron. ii. 3. "So 
 Hiram gave Solomon cedar trees and fir trees according 
 to all his desire. And Solomon gave Hiram twenty 
 thousand measures of wheat for food to his household, 
 and twenty measures of pure oil ; thus gave Solomon 
 to Hiram year by year. And the Lord gave Solomon 
 wisdom as he promised him : and there was peace 
 between Hiram and Solomon ; and they two made a 
 league together. "—I Kings v. 10, 13. Masonic tradition 
 claims that in this league of secret friendship and union 
 these grand officers, who were men of God, framed the 
 constitution and by-laws that govern Masonry ; together 
 with the initiations, obligations and secrets of the order 
 
330 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 of Ancient Masonry, which were conceived and executed 
 by the combined wisdom, wealth and genius of the first 
 grand officers. And to prevent impostors, each candi- 
 date for membership was closely scrutinized, as to age, 
 mental, physical and moral rectitude, and had to work 
 in the arts and moral sciences until he proved himself to 
 be worthy of the order, before the obligations and 
 secrets could possibly be communicated to him. And 
 that under no set of circumstances could the degrees be 
 conferred upon others until they had thus proven them- 
 selves to be worthy, by their assiduity, fidelity and pro- 
 ficiency in the arts. Thus typifying the assiduity, 
 fidelity and proficiency of the regenerated man of God in 
 his travail from nature to grace, and the close scrutiny 
 of the Heavenly Master as to his proficiency in humility 
 and lowliness, before he was counted worthy to receive 
 the grand secret of high heaven in the pardon of his 
 sins, and hence his acceptance into the Grand Lodge of 
 heaven, from whose bourne no traveler returns. He is 
 then inspired from the great love that he has for the 
 people of God to communicate this heavenly secret to 
 the church of Jesus Christ ; and if the secret harmonize 
 with the secret of the saints in their transition from 
 nature to grace, he is then received into the fellowship 
 of the church, and is then initiated into the church by 
 baptism, which is the antitype of the death, burial and 
 resurrection of the Grand Master Builder of Solomon's 
 temple, which pointed forward as a type of the death, 
 burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, of which baptism 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 331 
 
 is the true antitype. Neither can the church nor any 
 member thereof under any set of circumstances impart 
 this heavenly secret to others ; neither can they know 
 the Christian's secret except they pass through the same 
 spiritual ordeal, and receive the secret from the same 
 Heavenly Master, who presides over the saints in 
 heaven, and is the Grand Master Builder of that spiritual 
 edifice, that house not made with hands, eternal in the 
 heavens, of which Solomon's temple was a type. 
 
 Each stone that was worked into Solomon's temple, 
 and each piece of timber that was used in its construc- 
 tion, was elected out of the forests and quarries of nature, 
 and was plucked from the forests and quarries without 
 their own consent, they having no agency in the matter, 
 many more stones and timbers being left than were taken, 
 and that, too, without their consent, they alike having 
 no agency in the matter. But that the Grand Master 
 Builder having the whole plan of the temple in His mind 
 before it was built, as much as He did after its comple- 
 tion, elected every stone and piece of timber for its con- 
 struction, and had them fitly prepared and numbered in 
 the forests and quarries where they were felled and raised, 
 leaving all their rudeness and imperfections in the forests 
 and quarries of nature, while their pure and unadulter- 
 ated hearts were fitly prepared, squared and numbered, so 
 that there would be no difficulty in every piece fitting 
 the place for which it was intended. When thus pre- 
 pared, it seems that the material was then carried on 
 floats by sea to Japa, and thence by land to Jerusalem ; 
 
332 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 and that when the temple was being erected there was 
 no noise, not even the sound of a tool, but that every 
 piece had a place and fit in its place ; and that when the 
 temple was complete, and during its preparation, there 
 were no other stones nor timbers wooing and beseeching 
 the Master Builder to allow them to help Him, and to 
 allow them a place in the building ; neither was there 
 any rubbish round about its margin, all having been left 
 in the forests and quarries. 
 
 And when the temple was complete, and all of its 
 parts decorated with fine gold and other precious metals 
 by the Master Architect, then the queen of Sheba, to 
 gratifiy her curiosity and desires, having heard such 
 glowing accounts of the wisdom of Solomon and the 
 grandeur of his temple, went to Jerusalem to prove Sol- 
 omon with hard questions, and become fully satisfied as 
 to the reality of his glory and fame. ' ' And she said to 
 the King, It was a true report which I have heard in 
 mine own land of thine acts, and of thy wisdom. How- 
 beit I believed not their words until I came and mine 
 eyes had seen it : and, behold, the one half of the great- 
 ness of thy wisdom was not told me : for thou exceedest 
 the fame that I heard. Happy are thy men, and happy 
 are thy servants, which stand continually before thee 
 and hear thy wisdom. " — II Chron. ix. 5, 8. 
 
 These Old Baptists will tell you that the queen of 
 Sheba in this instance was a type of the church militant 
 of Jesus Christ, and that she represents every saint of 
 God, collectively and individually, that ever has been, is 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 333 
 
 now, or that ever will exist to the end of time; and that her 
 being told these marvelous stories of the fame of Solo- 
 mon and the grandeur of his temple, in her own land, 
 and her rejection of it as fiction, is a complete type of 
 every child of God while in his sins ; and her being in 
 her own land is a type of the child of God being in his 
 own nature, and trying to prove the wisdom and gran- 
 deur of the church of Christ by hard questions, as the 
 queen of Sheba was trying to prove Solomon, until they 
 are led by the Spirit of God, as she was, to see the wis- 
 dom, beauty and grandeur of the church of Jesus Christ, 
 in the pardon of their sins ; then they are ready, as did 
 the queen, to exclaim in perfect amazement and know- 
 ledge, that the half has not been told, and that they are 
 then made to be as happy as the men and servants of 
 the King were when they stood continually before him 
 and heard Ins wisdom. 
 
 These elected stones and timbers that were elected by 
 the wisdom of Solomon for the building of his temple, 
 were prepared by the genius of the Grand Architect, 
 without any agency on the part of the stones and 
 timbers, and were felled in the forest of Lebanon and 
 raised from the quarries by the ten thousand that were 
 elected as bearers of burdens, and were prepared by the 
 fourscore thousand that were chosen by the Grand Archi- 
 tect to be hewers in the mountains. And that three 
 thousand overseers who were gifted with more genius 
 were carrying out the designs of the Grand Architect in 
 
334 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 having the stones and timbers prepared, squared and 
 numbered to order. 
 
 These elected stones and timbers are said in Masonic 
 tradition to be a type of the elected " profane " who have 
 been elected by the members of a Masonic Lodge for 
 membership ; but should one member of the Lodge, 
 whose duty it is to guard the ballot box, find an imper- 
 fection of any magnitude in the "profane" he will be 
 rejected as unfit material to be worked into their 
 Masonic edifice ; but should he be a perfect man physi- 
 cally and morally, without any serious defects, they then 
 accept him, and carry him through an ordeal of initia- 
 tion which is reckoned as simulating the preparations of 
 the stones and timbers of Solomon's Temple, which 
 ordeal simulates in a literal sense the ordeal through 
 which the saints travail in their conflict from nature to 
 grace, in a spiritual sense ; and their progress in the 
 literature and arts of Masonry is reckoned as the Chris- 
 tian's growth in grace and knowledge of the perfections 
 of the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and the final adjust- 
 ment of the everlasting capstone that the builders of the 
 literal temple rejected. 
 
 Those literal stones and timbers that were elected from 
 the quarries and forests of nature were not free moral 
 agents, neither did they have anything to do with their 
 own election or literal preparation for the building of 
 the temple ; but they were quickened or plucked from 
 nature's hidden resources, through the mighty influence 
 and wisdom of the master builders, and were prepared, 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 335 
 
 squared and numbered by the gift and genius of those 
 who were appointed and authorized to be hewers in the 
 mountains, who executed the designs of the master 
 workman, whose instructions were to use no material 
 in the building except such as gave satisfactory evidences 
 of having a pure heart, and that all others must be re- 
 jected. Hence the imperfections that were incident to 
 the elected stones and timbers in their rude and imper- 
 fect state by nature were all erased by the sculptors of 
 art, and were left in the forests and quarries, and were 
 not brought up to the temple as a hindrance to its 
 erection, nor as a mass of debris to detract from its 
 beauty and grandeur ; hence the temple was a perfect 
 building without a spot or blemish of imperfection. 
 
 Thus it is that the saints who are to compose and 
 make up the body of Christ, or that spiritual building, 
 were chosen in Christ before the world began, through 
 the wisdon and genius of the Father and the Son, of 
 whom the master builders of Solomon's Temple were a 
 type. And Jesus Christ is manifesting himself to them 
 through the medium of his Holy Spirit, at the appointed 
 time of the Father, all along through time. And every 
 one of God's chosen spiritual stones shall be quickened 
 into spiritual life, or plucked, as it were, from the hid- 
 den treasures of God's amazing mercy and grace, and 
 from among the mixed multitude of others, who in the 
 eternal mind of God were not suitable material to be 
 worked into that spiritual building whose maker and 
 builder is God. And these eternal chosen ones shall all 
 
336 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 be quickened and brought from nature's night into the 
 marvelous light and liberty of the gospel of Jesus Christ, 
 and in their travail from nature to grace, and in their 
 humiliations and disappointments in having to give up 
 all for Christ's sake, having to forsake all self -righteous- 
 ness and self-aggrandizement, and fall at the feet of 
 Jesus, taking him for surety in all things pertaining to 
 eternal life, leaving all the institutions and doctrines of 
 man in the forest of Lebanon ; thus leaving all their 
 sins and imperfections in the forests and quarries of 
 Babylon, having been hewn, squared and numbered for 
 a precise place in the church of Jesus Christ, by the 
 designs of the Master Spiritual Builder, having been 
 engraved in their hearts, through the medium of the 
 teachings of God's overseers, or ministers, together with 
 the help of His hewers in the mountains and bearers of 
 burdens, as exemplified in the building of the literal 
 temple, which is a complete type of the gifts of the 
 church of Jesus Christ, simulating the ministers, officers 
 and laity of the church, and pointing directly to their 
 various duties and gifts in building up and sustaining 
 the church and servants of Jesus Christ's gospel. And 
 that when all the elect of God have been triumphantly 
 brought into this spiritual building, time will be no 
 more, and the effulgent splendor and glory of this spirit- 
 ual temple will be equal in spiritual grandeur to the 
 literal grandeur of Solomon's Temple. And that after 
 God has thus prepared them for this grand spiritual 
 temple, they are then fit subjects to be carried on floats 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 337 
 
 by sea to Japa, and thence by land to Jerusalem, which 
 is a type of their being carried through the water in 
 baptism, and thence by land to the church militant and 
 triumphant, or that holy city of which Jerusalem is a 
 type, and where they will fit in the body or temple of 
 Christ with that exact nicety that surpasses all human 
 ingenuity. And that the wealth of Hiram, King of 
 Pyre, that was used in decorating the literal temple of 
 the Lord that was built by Solomon in commemoration 
 of God, and the sixscore talents of gold, and the gold 
 from Ophir, and the different timbers and precious stones 
 that were furnished by ffiram in the building of this 
 grand type of the final ingathering of the body of Christ 
 into that Temple of temples that is eternal in the 
 heavens, is a complete figure of the abounding wealth 
 and grandeur of the Holy Spirit when applied to the 
 saints of God in their conversion, regeneration and final 
 decoration, when brought into that holy city, every one 
 fitting in the precise place for which he was intended 
 by the Grand Master of heaven's spiritual temple, 
 whose genius in decorating this heavenly building far 
 surpasses all the arts of man ; and that the genius of all 
 the linguists of earth will never attain to a description 
 of its glory and grandeur when adorned by the spiritual 
 handiwork of the Supreme Architect of the universe. 
 And that these spiritual stones and timbers, if the 
 allegory is a good one, had about as much to do in their 
 election and preparation for this spiritual building, as 
 free agents, as did the literal stones and timbers of the 
 
338 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 literal temple. All Masons know that they had nothing 
 to do with their election nor initiation into the order, 
 only as they were acted upon, except in the midst of 
 their conflict in passing the ordeal required in conferring 
 the degrees, they are suffered to pray for themselves ; 
 which is a perfect figure of the conflict of all God's 
 elected ones, while they are acted upon by the Holy 
 Spirit, and manipulated upon by the members of the 
 church, and indoctrinated by the preaching of the gospel 
 by God's ministers. They are suffered to pray for them- 
 selves ; yea, compelled by the propelling power of the 
 mighty influence of the Holy Spirit to ask God to have 
 mercy upon them, as their conviction for sin and the 
 ordeal of preparation for that spiritual building is acting 
 upon them so powerfully that they feel themselves justly 
 sinking into endless despair, without the all-sustaining 
 grace or favor of a merciful God. But after they have 
 passed the ordeal, and have experienced a pardon of 
 their sins, by being hewn, squared and numbered by 
 the Holy Spirit, and instructed by the members of 
 Christ's church, or kingdom, they are then ready for 
 baptism, or initiation into the church of Jesus Christ ; 
 after which they are accepted as workmen in the vine- 
 yard of the Lord, according to their several gifts, and 
 are then able to admonish and assist others, in kind and 
 sympathetic admonitions, while passing through the 
 same trials from nature to grace. "And I will bring 
 the blind by a way that they knew not ; I will lead them 
 in paths that they have not known : I will make dark- 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 339 
 
 ness light before them, and crooked things straight. 
 These things will I do unto them, and not forsake 
 them."— Is. xlii. 16. 
 
 All Masons who have passed the ordeal of initia- 
 tion, and have been judged as being worthy to receive 
 the grand secrets of the order whereby one brother may 
 know another in the dark as well as in the light, know 
 that it is a positive violation of the laws and regulations 
 of Masonry for them to beg or persuade any person to 
 become a Mason : but the person must become willing 
 of his own free will and accord, from a favorable opin- 
 ion of the ancient order, or he cannot be made a Mason. 
 This being the case, the aspirant makes known his de- 
 sires to some friend who is a member, who reports his 
 wishes to the Lodge, and the master of the Lodge ap- 
 points a committee to investigate his moral character, 
 and see if he is fit material to be worked into their 
 Masonic edifice, etc. This is a precise pattern of the 
 church of Jesus Christ. And there is not another de- 
 nomination of Christians under the canopy of heaven 
 who practice the ancient tenets of Masonry, except the 
 Old Baptists. Who has ever heard of the Old Baptists 
 canvassing land and sea to increase their numbers ? 
 " Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! for 
 ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte ; and 
 when he is made ye make him two-fold more the child 
 of hell than yourselves." — Matt, xxiii. 15. 
 
 But the candidate for membership in the Old Baptist 
 church, or church of Christ, must come of his own free 
 
34:0 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 will and accord, having been made willing by the opera- 
 tion of the Holy Spirit npon his heart, to forsake all else 
 for the sake of Jesus Christ and his church. He then 
 makes known to the church in conference (which is a 
 figure of the ancient Lodges in regular session,) his de- 
 sire to become a member and live after the pattern of 
 Jesus Christ. He makes this application in person, or 
 through some member he communicates his wish to be- 
 come a member, and expresses a willingness to forsake 
 all the types and shadows of Masonry and the old laws 
 of the Levitical priesthood, that pointed to the coming 
 of Christ and the setting up of his church ; thus abolish- 
 ing ancient Masonry and instituting the church of 
 Christ instead. If the candidate is then able in confer- 
 ence to give a satisfactory reason of his hope in Jesus 
 Christ, and is judged by the church as being fit material 
 to be worked into their spiritual edifice, judging the in- 
 ternal and not the external qualifications, he is received 
 as a suitable candidate for baptism, or initiation into the 
 church of Christ, without any bulldozing or logrolling 
 them into the church, making proselytes by sea and 
 land. 
 
 They further teach that the untimely death of the 
 grand master builder of the literal temple and his resur- 
 rection and transportation to the literal temple of God, 
 for a more decent burial, as compiled by Masonic tradi- 
 tions, is a type of the untimely destruction of the temple, 
 and its resurrection or rebuilding, and that both in- 
 stances point to the seeming untimely death, burial and 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 341 
 
 resurrection of Jesus Christ as the grand antitype. And 
 that the carrying of the grand master builder to the city 
 of Jerusalem, which is a type of heaven, and depositing his 
 remains in the literal temple of the Lord, which is a type 
 of the body of Jesus Christ, is a complete figure of the 
 resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ into the 
 heaven of heavens, after his literal temple had been de- 
 stroyed by his enemies, and resurrected or rebuilt and 
 formed into a spiritual temple at the right hand of God, 
 in the everlasting holy city of the Lord ; and that the 
 gradual merging of the saints into glory, or into the 
 body of Christ, all along through time, in rebuilding that 
 spiritual temple to its final completion at the final con- 
 summation of all things, is the grand antitype of the re- 
 building of the literal temple, eighteen years before the 
 coming of Christ. " Herod this year begins to enlarge, 
 or rather to rebuild, the temple at Jerusalem, forty-six 
 years before the first passover of the ministry of Christ, 
 and in nine years and a half finished the magnificent 
 structure." — Index to Holy Bible. " Jesus answered 
 and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three 
 days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and 
 six years was this temple in building ; and wilt thou 
 rear it up in three days ? But he spake of the temple of 
 his body."— John ii. 19, 21. 
 
 These Old Baptists seem to have but little trouble in 
 proving that ancient Masonry was a complete type of 
 Jesus Christ and the setting up of his kingdom, and hence 
 the destruction of the shadow of principles in the com- 
 
342 SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 ing of Christ, and the establishment of his church ; and 
 that modern Masonry is nothing more than a Jewish 
 farce, as compared with ancient Masonry, and is virtual- 
 ly a denial of the coining of Christ and the establish- 
 ment of his church, and is equally as inconsistent, in 
 church members, as is the practice of circumcision among 
 the Jews ; and that church members who visit and tol- 
 erate modern Masonic Lodges could with equal propriety 
 have their sons circumcised at eight days old. 
 
 But that modern Masonry is highly commendable 
 outside of the church, and is regarded by intelligent 
 and literary Old Baptists as being one of the noblest 
 moral and charitable institutions that was ever insti- 
 tuted by man, if the principles were adhered to ; 
 but that the principles as practised by modern Masonry 
 are foreign to the designs of ancient Masonry. For it is 
 well known to all who have the gift of discrimination 
 that the devices and pollutions of men and devils are 
 cloaked under the great cloak of charity in modern 
 Masonry, and the evil doers retained in the order as 
 acceptable members, while m ancient Masonry they 
 were thrust out of the temple for their deeds of daring. 
 
 It is further claimed that ancient Masonry does not 
 teach anything, from the commencement to the com- 
 pletion of the temple, but election, foreknowledge, pre- 
 destination and final perseverance ; pointing to the 
 absolute predestination of all things in the eternal mind 
 of Jehovah before the world began. And that if modern 
 Masonry was in precept and example what ancient 
 
SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 343 
 
 Masonry was, it would be wholly inconsistent for an 
 Arminian ever to be made a Mason, as ancient Masonry 
 is diametrically in opppsition to the popular theory of 
 salvation by means and instrumentalities, but was 
 originally based upon the principles of eternal and par- 
 ticular election. 
 
 And now, O Lord, the work is done, 
 
 And ready to depart ; 
 O let thy Spirit bear it home 
 
 With power to every heart. 
 
 May it, like Eleazar, go, 
 
 And guided by thy power, 
 Cause humble saints thy will to know, 
 
 In this thy favored hour. 
 
 May false professors by it see 
 
 Their guilty, awful stand, 
 And to the blessed Savior flee, 
 
 Thus humbled by his hand. 
 
 By it may all the hireling crew 
 
 That run, but are not sent, 
 Their awful stand be brought to view, 
 
 And cause them to repent. 
 
 By it may all that persecute 
 
 The people of the Lord, 
 See that of strength they're destitute 
 
 To fight against his word. 
 
 May all thy precious saints who know 
 
 That they are born to die, 
 Set their own house in order, too, 
 
 Before they're called on high. 
 
S4A SUPPOSED INTERVIEW. 
 
 Note — Our subject being inexhaustible, we are compelled to desist, 
 or make our work more voluminous than would be convenient in the 
 common courtesies and ethics of neighbors in borrowing and loaning 
 for the mutual benefit of all. We had intended making a spiritual 
 application of the building of the tower of Babel, where God con- 
 founded the languages of those who were engaged in the building, and 
 set at naught the effort system of getting to heaven upon the means 
 and instrumentality plan (Gen. xi.), and compare it with Catholicism, 
 and show that over six hundred different spiritual tongues or lan- 
 guages, all calling themselves the church of Christ, all of which have 
 had their languages confounded, and do not understand their spiritual 
 mother tongue, who by spiritual consanguinity can be traced back to 
 Catholicism, which is a complete figure of the building and suspension 
 of the tower of Babel, which typifies the confounding of the doctrines 
 of the churches of Antichrist, so that they do not understand the lan- 
 guage of their mother tongue (Catholicism) nor each other's spiritual 
 language ; yet they affiliate and negotiate together, and seem to have 
 fellowship for each other's spiritual dead languages, and bid each other 
 God speed, by partaking of each other's evil deeds ; while the Old 
 Baptists stand unsullied upon the faith and doctrines of Jesus Christ 
 and the Apostles, as once delivered to the saints, and can trace them- 
 selves back by spiritual affinity and consanguinity in regular succession 
 to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. But we presume that we have said 
 enough for those who have any spiritual discernment to see the lines 
 of demarcation between the church of Christ and the churches of 
 Antichrist, as taught in the Scriptures of divine truth. Praying the 
 God of heaven, if in accordance with His will, to give all the redeemed 
 or elect of God, who have been caught in the nets of Babylon, eyes to 
 see, ears to hear, and hearts to understand. " For God, who com- 
 manded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, 
 to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of 
 Jesus Christ."— II Cor. iv. G. S. M. C. 
 
PART III. 
 
 APPENDIX. 
 
 A Condensed Biography and Experience of the 
 
 Author. 
 
 By way of appendix, it has been insisted upon by our 
 friends and brethren, that we give a condensed com- 
 pendium of our ancestry, life and experience, or travail 
 from nature's night to the marvelous light of the gospel 
 of Jesus Christ in the pardon of our sins. We have 
 consented to comply with their wishes, peradventure we 
 have a Christian experience and are not deceived. We 
 believe this to be an imperative duty that we owe to our 
 brethren and friends, as well as to gratify our own 
 desires, in communicating the authorship to our kindred 
 in the flesh, schoolmates and friends throughout the 
 States. Not that we are egotistic or vain over our suc- 
 cess, nor that we would vaunt over our merits, for we 
 know that our work is imperfect, and that of ourselves 
 we can do nothing. "I can of mine own self do noth- 
 ing." — John v. 30. And if Jesus could do nothing inde- 
 pendent of the Father, we could not be presumptuous 
 enough to undertake to edify and comfort the saints 
 without the comforting influence of the Spirit of God to 
 
31:6 APPENDIX. 
 
 aid and direct us. But to a heavenly Benefactor we bow 
 in humble submission, humility and thanksgiving, per- 
 adventure He has impressed us to compile a work that 
 will do honor to His holy name and edify and comfort 
 the afflicted and chosen people of the true and living 
 God. 
 
 We were born of humble, but honest parents, October 
 the 1st, A. D. 1830, in the County of Thomas, and State 
 of Georgia. 
 
 In the winter of 1837 and 1838, father moved into 
 Lowdnes County, a distance of about six or seven miles, 
 at which home he became surety for others, and had a 
 protracted litigated law suit for a large herd of cattle, 
 and lost all his substance, and the family was reduced 
 from partial affluence to extreme poverty. After which 
 our father was at times infatuated with madness : he 
 lost all of his energies, and many times his madness 
 terminated in partial insanity. He therefore became a 
 hindrance to the support and education of his children ; 
 but our dear old mother surmounted all of these troubles 
 with much Christian fortitude, and raised her children 
 in credit and respectability, but without much literary 
 attainments. 
 
 Our father and mother were reared and married in 
 Duplin County, North Carolina, and emigrated from 
 thence to Thomas County, Georgia, between the years 
 1818 and 1823. Our father's name was Shadrick Carlton 
 and our mother's maiden name was Catharine Sloan. 
 Our grandfather Carlton's name was David, and our 
 
APPENDIX. 347 
 
 grandfather Sloan's name was John. Our father had 
 one brother, whose name was Henry, and three sisters, 
 whose names we do not remember. Our mother had 
 one brother and one sister, whose names were John and 
 Elizabeth, who emigrated to Georgia with our parents, 
 both of whom raised large families. Mother's sister 
 marrying our great uncle, Hardy Carlton ; mother being 
 the youngest of the three ; she married my father 
 several years after the marriage of her sister. 
 
 Our parents raised eight children, viz : Harmon, Mar- 
 garet, Susan, Elvie, John Sloan, Blake, Snider Miles, 
 (who is the author of this manual) and Catharine. 
 
 In January, 1845, our mother moved from Georgia to 
 Alabama, and settled in Coffee County, and father re- 
 turned to North Carolina to look after his interest in his 
 father's estate, whose property was worth several 
 thousand dollars at his death ; but those who were alike 
 interested in the estate took advantage of our father's 
 infatuated madness, or partial insanity, and defrauded 
 him out of his inheritance. He remained away from 
 his family three years, and returned to them more in- 
 furiated than ever, and made many efforts to assume 
 control and squander our earnings. The four older 
 children being married, and having homes of their own, 
 leaving mother with the four younger, who were rapidly 
 merging into manhood and womanhood, who with their 
 stern resistance to his infuriated despotism and want to 
 squander and make waste, aided by the giant intellect 
 and Christian fortitude of a sainted mother, we over- 
 
348 APPENDIX. 
 
 came his freaks of madness and surmounted our extreme 
 poverty ; after which we gradually merged into respec- 
 tability and honor among our neighbors and associates 
 who lived adjacent to our new home. 
 
 When the humble writer was about eighteen years 
 old it was agreed upon by our mother and brothers that 
 we be allowed the privilege of going to school, long 
 enough at least to acquire an ordinary English educa- 
 tion. This covenant was entered into through sympathy 
 for the poor, unworthy, yet grateful writer, who was 
 afflicted with "Congenital oblique inguinal scrotal her- 
 nia" which disease marred his prospects in making a 
 living by manual labor, and at that time bid fair to sup 
 the foundation of his physical organism, which disease 
 we have since cured by the use of a truss of our own 
 invention. 
 
 We went to school two fall sessions, laboring hard 
 with our brothers each spring to make a crop before we 
 could be spared out of the farm, during which time we 
 made rapid progress in English literature. 
 
 In the early part of the year 1851 our neighbors in- 
 sisted upon our taking charge of a settlement school, 
 and instructing their children in the primary branches 
 of English education. We accepted their kind proposi- 
 tion, but with many conscientious scruples as to our 
 ability in government and discipline. We felt our boy- 
 hood and nothingness, and were not well grown, being 
 only twenty years of age. This was a trial session, in 
 
APPENDIX. 349 
 
 which we gave satisfaction, after which we attended 
 a high school during its fall session. 
 
 In the year 1852 our neighbors gave us the school 
 again, which we taught with entire satisfaction until 
 some time in June, when we were seized in the school- 
 room with powerful nervous paroxysms, convulsing our 
 whole frame with spasmodic contractions of apparently 
 every muscle of our organism, on account of the enor- 
 mity of our sins ; but we were then ignorant of the 
 cause of our organic troubles, and supposed that we 
 were soon going to die. 
 
 Outside of our original sin, "Behold, I was shapen in 
 iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." We 
 had become a great sinner by actual commission, the 
 great evil of which we had never before been made to 
 realize. We had learned to love the revelings of young 
 and wicked associates, and from the position that we 
 had gained in society we had learned with cunningly 
 devised stratagem to disguise our diabolical deeds of 
 wickedness, and appear in society as a chaste and refined 
 gentleman. Our chief delight was the ballroom, and 
 the seduction of young boys and girls who were our 
 associates, decoying them from the paths of rectitude 
 and morals, to that of secret revelry and ruin. But 
 thanks be to our God, we were overtaken by that Spirit 
 that does all things well. "In whom also we have ob- 
 tained an inheritance, being predestinated according to 
 the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the 
 counsel of His own will." — Eph. i. 11. 
 
350 APPENDIX. 
 
 It had been our custom in the school room to lecture 
 our pupils occasionally upon the importance of the duties 
 that they owed to their parents, teachers, society, and to 
 their God. While admonishing them on this occasion 
 we were stricken with horror, begotten convictions of 
 hypocrisy, and made to feel that we were counterfeiting 
 and mocking the religion of Jesus Christ. We at once 
 dismissed our school for recess, when immediately fol- 
 lowed a severe paroxysm of languor, melancholy and 
 depression of spirits, terminating in rapid succession in 
 convulsions of the muscles of the whole human organ- 
 ism. Our tongue was convulsed, and we could not speak 
 for several minutes ; but we retained our mind, and 
 couched upon the benches, with some books under our 
 head. When we were able to speak, we were so sure we 
 were going to die that we ordered our two little nephews 
 to go for their father, who was our oldest brother, 
 (Harmon,) with whom we boarded. When our brother 
 arrived, the paroxysm had partially subsided. Some 
 stimulants were administered, and we were carried to 
 his house for protection. Our mother was sent for, who 
 cared for us for a few days, and we again resumed our 
 duties in the school room, only to be disturbed again by 
 the same character of paroxysms, when that great flood 
 of sin and condemnation was again presented to our 
 mental vision. We made several abortive efforts to con- 
 tinue our school, but all our efforts were futile. 
 
 We went to our mother's home for protection and for 
 death, perad venture medical aid would not restore us ; 
 
APPENDIX. 351 
 
 for we verily believed that we were going to die. Our 
 family physician was summoned. His diagnosis was 
 difficult, and his prognosis was uncertain ; he was not 
 able to detect any certain form of disease, and therefore 
 tantalized us with the idea of ' ( Hypochondriacism. " He 
 administered to us powerful antispasmodics, alternating 
 with the various preparations of opium ; but all were 
 futile, and when the effects were gone and the awful 
 forebodings of death and endless despair were again pre- 
 sented to us, and the justice of our condemnation riveted 
 upon our mental vision, we were again and again thrown 
 into those nervous paroxysms, followed by the prayers 
 and supplications of a sympathizing Christian mother. 
 
 It would be wholly unnecessary for us to say to the 
 Christian reader that our continued prayer to God was 
 for mercy instead of justice. Meanwhile there seemed 
 to be a secret monitor within us, repeating the familiar 
 old verse, 
 
 "Afflictions, though they seem severe, 
 
 In mercy oft are sent ; 
 They stopped the prodigal's career, 
 
 And caused him to repent." 
 
 Many were the times that this familiar old verse of 
 poetry revolved through our anxious mind, giving us 
 indescribable comfort. 
 
 We became emaciated and haggard. Our leanness 
 amounted to inactivity and weakness, both physically 
 and mentally. Eepeated opiates had established con- 
 
352 APPENDIX. 
 
 stipation and dyspepsia, or indigestion, and we. had given 
 up all hopes of recovery. With all of these forebodings 
 of approaching dissolution, we were seized with the 
 most severe and protracted nervous spasm that had ever 
 visited our couch. The physician was summoned, and 
 after repeated efforts he pronounced the fatal sentence, 
 and gave us a heavy opiate which lulled us off to sleep 
 amid the cries and lamentations of associates, brothers, 
 sisters, and a dear old sainted mother, who had for weeks 
 and months suspected our trouble and had inquired after 
 the causes very cautiously. She believed that we were 
 laboring under a deep conviction of sin and condemna- 
 tion in the sight of God. This was about the 10th of 
 January, A. D. 1853, and was in the early part of the 
 night ; and that night to us was shrouded in dark fore- 
 bodings of endless despair ; gloom was depicted upon 
 every object that met our vision, and justice demanded 
 that we soon be launched into eternity, where we would 
 forever be banished from the peaceful presence of God. 
 Amid the burning candles and mourning friends that 
 surrounded our couch, we dropped into a tranquil sleep ; 
 and ere the day had dawned we feel that the God of 
 heaven presented us with a vision that will never be 
 erased from our memory until reason is dethroned. 
 There seemed to be a great aperture in the roof of the 
 house, immediately over our couch, and the day seemed 
 to be of crystal brightness, and in the aperture appeared 
 a great white sheet, or litter, which gradually descended 
 upon our couch, and lay by our side, upon which sheet 
 
APPENDIX. 353 
 
 or litter lay three beautiful infant babes, all dressed in 
 spotless white, and were all perfect fac-similes of each 
 other. Their tinted cheeks, ruby lips and bright eyes 
 were the image of perfection, their rippling feet and clasp- 
 ing hands seemed to be dancing in the air with joy, and 
 their smiles were radiant with beaming brightness. But 
 these heavenly ejaculations soon passed away. The an- 
 gelic forms of these infant babes were soon shrouded in 
 the habiliments of death, and they lay lifeless upon the 
 litter or sheet. That luster and tint that adorned their 
 heavenlike features had all passed away, and they ap- 
 peared ghastly and cadaverous. In this condition they 
 gradually ascended upon the litter or sheet through the 
 aperture in the housetop, and were soon out of our sight. 
 When we awoke in the early morning, to realize that 
 our vision was only a dream, and was possibly a freak 
 of hallucination, caused from the effects of opium, or a 
 disordered condition of the mind caused from our fore- 
 bodings of approaching dissolution, we were again per- 
 plexed for want of a proper solution of its interpretation; 
 for we verily believed that it was a heavenly vision, and 
 that our God had sent those three little innocent messen- 
 gers to give us warning of our approaching demise, and 
 that their sudden death and ascension through the aper- 
 ture in the housetop was a warning to us of our early de- 
 parture or transition from this terrestrial or mundane 
 sphere, to that celestial habitation that is only occupied 
 by the saints or chosen people of God. The terror of 
 death and everlasting banishment from the peaceful 
 
354 APPENDIX. 
 
 presence of God was to some extent stayed, and there 
 was a serenity and calmness of mind that followed ; but 
 not with that gush of ecstatic joy and delightful en- 
 thusiasm that attends the peaceful deliverance of many 
 heaven-born souls ; for the horrors and pangs of death 
 were still hovering around us. 
 
 While we felt that we had some of the evidences of our 
 deliverance from the debt of sin and condemnation, 
 through the efficacy of the blood of Christ, and that our 
 spirit would soon follow the innocent babes through the 
 yielding ether to the untold glories of distant climes, yet 
 to be the possessor of this everlasting profusion of glory 
 we must die, and leave friends, associates, kindred, and 
 especially that sainted old Christian mother, who was 
 dearer to us than all earthly ties. Our mind was vividly 
 carried back to our childhood, and her gentle cares and 
 Christian precepts occupied a place in our memory that 
 controlled the very emotions of our soul, and we could 
 not get our consent to die and leave her. 
 
 But thanks be to our God we lost sight of eternal 
 punishment after death, and have not had another one 
 of those horror-begotten nervous spasms in over thirty 
 years. the joys and consolations that are afforded the 
 poor sin-sick and contrite soul, by the soothing words 
 and gentle admonitions of a devoted Christian mother ! 
 In our earliest recollections we well remember that our 
 dear old mother would assemble her children around her 
 knees in the family room and read chapter after chapter 
 in the old family Bible, and with her giant mind, and 
 
APPENDIX. 355 
 
 love of Bible and spiritual learning, she would expound 
 to us the unsearchable riches of Christ, and his eternal 
 purpose in the salvation of his chosen people. She was 
 a Primitive Baptist since our earliest recollection, and 
 had a wonderful gift in expounding the great and mar- 
 velous works of God in the plan of salvation, and was 
 much revered by all who knew her. 
 
 We gradually recovered from our suspected fatal sick- 
 ness ; and as our strength and muscles developed into 
 reinstated manhood and vigor, we became more and 
 more convinced that our vision was mental delusion. 
 We gradually merged into many of our former habits, 
 and manifested a disposition to disregard the warnings 
 of our God, and actually perjured ourself by failing to 
 comply with the vows we had made to our God to serve 
 and obey Him, peradventure He would only restore us 
 to our wonted health. But the remorse of conscience 
 that followed our disobedience is indescribable. 
 
 We were conscious of the fact that our young asso- 
 ciates would mock us should we presume to execute the 
 vows that we had made to our God, and our former con- 
 duct forbade that we should be presumptuous enough to 
 claim the society of the people of God, without execut- 
 ing these vows, and that our presumption would be 
 mockery in the sight of God ; hence we felt to be alone 
 and miserable, but would occasionally resort to our 
 former associations to disguise the great secret that was 
 between us and our God. 
 
 In the midst of these conflicts we were offered a situa- 
 
356 APPENDIX. 
 
 tion in a dry goods store in the town of Daleville, Ala- 
 bama, by our much esteemed friend, Dr. E. J. Hays, 
 now of Panola county, Texas, which situation we ac- 
 cepted in the spring of 1853. In the year 1854 we sold 
 goods for Messrs. H. W. B. Price & Bro., of the same 
 town, who proved themselves to be faithful and true 
 friends. Having been thrown into business contact 
 with the masses for two years, our mind was much 
 diverted from our former troubles. In the meantime 
 our dear old mother, together with brothers and sisters, 
 (except sister Susan, who remained in Thomas county, 
 Georgia,) emigrated to Texas and Mississippi, leaving us 
 alone in the hands of our God, to partake of the hospi- 
 talities of kind friends, but never again to realize the 
 consolations and sweet communion of a dear Christian 
 mother ; for she died in Houston county, Texas, in the 
 fall of 1858, and our unfortunate father followed her in 
 death in the spring of 1859. They now sleep by each 
 other in old Randolph Cemetery. 
 
 In the spring of 1853 we formed the happy acquain- 
 tance of our dear wife, and married her on the 12th of 
 December, A. D. 1854. She has shared with us many 
 hardships and trials. We have had conflicts and ad- 
 versities, and many times we have had flattering evi- 
 dences of prosperity. She has ever been ready to share 
 our joys and sorrows, and in adversities she has ever 
 been zealous and untiring, in her energies and economy, 
 to make good our losses. She has borne for us six chil- 
 dern, our first two died in infancy. To the four living 
 
APPENDIX. 357 
 
 children and the Primitive Baptists we desire to dedicate 
 this Book : to-wit, Lobel Alva, Mary Ellena, Sallie Ada, 
 and Oswald Snider. 
 
 Our wife's maiden name was Nancy Clark Satter- 
 white. She was the daughter of Stephen and Eebecca 
 Satterwhite. Her father was a living monument of 
 honor and Christianity. He was a deacon of the Primi- 
 tive Baptist church since our earliest acquaintance with 
 "him, and was universally revered by all who knew him. 
 He and his wife died during the Confederate war, and 
 were interred in Daleville Cemetery, Dale county, Ala- 
 bama. 
 
 In the year 1855 we taught the village school of Haw 
 Eidge, Alabama, and with our earnings during the win- 
 ter of 1855 and 1856 we attended our first course of lec- 
 tures in the Reformed Medical College, of Macon, Georgia. 
 We practiced medicine in the counties of Barbour and 
 Dale, Alabama, nearly three years, and then graduated 
 in the same college, in the winter of 1858 and 1859. 
 
 In January, 1862, we moved to the town of Brundidge, 
 Pike county, Alabama ; and in January, 1872, we emi- 
 grated to Panola county, Texas, and from thence to 
 Henderson, Eusk county, Texas, in February, 1879, 
 where we now reside. 
 
 From the time of our marriage we found comforts and 
 consolations in our dear wife and her kind parents that 
 partially supplied the place of our dear mother, until the 
 death of her parents, when we found ourselves over- 
 whelmed with the joys and consolations of interesting 
 
358 APPENDIX. 
 
 little children, coupled with the tender cares of a devoted 
 wife, which ravished our soul with gratitude to God for 
 His loving-kindness. 
 
 From the time of our vision to the death of Mr. and 
 Mrs. Satterwhite we made many vows to our God, but 
 only to be broken, and we humiliated by contrition of 
 soul. Our proud and romantic heart revolted at our 
 better desires, and reveled in romance for temporary 
 joys ; while the inner man, when solitary and alone, was 
 yearning after the Spirit of Christ. But the great secret 
 that was between us and our God had not yet been re- 
 vealed, and must be concealed, or we be subjected to the 
 scoffs of the jovial populace, and our professional lustre 
 impeded with the pretence of Christianity ; hence we 
 were often found at the ball-room, and other places of 
 hilarity, seeking renown among the gay and fashionable 
 circles, to add lustre to our calling and names to our pat- 
 ronage. "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, 
 and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." — Heb. 
 xii. 6. Thanks be to our God, this Scripture has given 
 much comfort to our poor, afflicted soul ; for we have 
 been deservedly beaten with many stripes of chastise- 
 ment from our God, and can now rejoice at the dealings 
 of our God to usward, feeling that our stubborn heart 
 has at last been subdued. At the commencement of the 
 Confederate war we were powerfully infatuated with 
 Southern patriotism. Our Southern politicians and 
 patriots were proclaiming it from the Atlantic to the 
 Pacific oceans, and from the Gulf of Mexico to Mason 
 
APPENDIX. 359 
 
 and Dixon's line, for the Congress of the United States 
 to give them equal rights in the Union, or they would 
 have independence out of the Union. We became reck- 
 lessly infuriated at the cunning craftiness of our 
 Northern contemporaries in their effort to free Southern 
 slaves, and thereby wrench from their Southern neigh- 
 bors any part of the political control of the Government. 
 We enlisted in the Southern army, and to banish from 
 our mind the love and tender sympathy that we had for 
 our dear wife and children we had left behind upon 
 meager rations, we resorted to reckless romance and 
 amusing anecdotes, and soon won the admiration of all 
 our comrades. But at our solitary moments and at the 
 dead hours of night our eyes were often bathed in tears 
 while asking the God of heaven to have mercy upon us, 
 and to protect our wife and dear children from all harm, 
 and to return us to them in peace at His own appointed 
 time, if in accordance with His will. 
 
 In the hot days of June, 1863, our regiment was 
 ordered to make a quick march from the valley to near 
 the summit of Lookout mountain, near Chattanooga, 
 Tenn. Before reaching our destination our bowels 
 gushed through the inguinal ring, in spite of our truss, 
 and we were prostrated by the wayside with our old 
 Congenital Hernia, and upon examination the army 
 surgeon found that it was strangulated, which gave us 
 much pain, and him much trouble to reduce ; after 
 which our company and many others petitioned our dis- 
 charge, with the allegations of physical disability, and 
 
360 APPENDIX. 
 
 we returned home to our wife and dear little children. 
 Near the close of the war, when all of our hopes of vic- 
 tory were blasted, and our Southern institutions were com- 
 pelled to succumb to superior force, our waste places and 
 swamps were dotted with camps of profligates and deserters 
 from the contending armies, and raiding companies were 
 being formed by them, with wicked leaders, who piloted 
 them through the country for part of the spoils ; at late 
 hours of the night they would rifle the houses of old 
 men, and torture them by hanging them by the thumbs, 
 and many times by the neck, until they would give up 
 all their valuables, rather than die, many of whom never 
 recovered. They would then insult their wives and 
 daughters by committing diabolical deeds of shame, and 
 then return to their camps with impunity. Under these 
 circumstances we became reckless and demoralized, and 
 lost sight of the justice and goodness of God ; and we 
 often declared our infidelity, and cursed bitter oaths 
 from the effects of our madness ; but, like Peter of old, 
 who denied his Lord, we often went out and wept 
 bitterly. These raiding companies continued to commit 
 high crimes for months, until forbearance ceased to be a 
 virtue ; when we, together with about twenty others, 
 formed ourselves into a secret league, and took a solemn 
 oath to take the life of every robber that we could appre- 
 hend and make the proof, regardless of law or con- 
 science. But our God arrested our schemes by sending 
 a company of armed soldiers to protect our old men, 
 
APPENDIX. 361 
 
 women and children, and relieved us of committing 
 crime. 
 
 We continued in this state of mental religious mania 
 for three or four years, during which time we committed 
 many depredations, resulting in our shame and humilia- 
 tion. But, God be praised, He always made a way for 
 escape, and saved us from disgrace and ruin ; for when 
 our diabolical plans were about to be consummated, He 
 always intervened and saved us from shame and ruin. 
 In our madness we remember to have concocted a plan 
 to swindle the Federal Government and make good our 
 losses that had been unjustly brought upon us by the 
 authorities that had overcome our armies. Had we 
 succeeded, and the proof been made against us, we would 
 have been incarcerated for years ; but our heavenly 
 Benefactor was again watching over us, and deterred us 
 from committing a great crime, for which we now desire 
 to render praise and adoration to His holy name forever. 
 When we look back at our madness we can now see the 
 handwriting of a merciful God wonderfully displayed in 
 our temporal and moral salvation, as well as His merciful 
 kindness and long-suffering to usward ; for instead of 
 cutting us off He has borne with us, and drawn us to 
 Him with loving kindness ; and with His love and 
 mercy bestowed upon us, when justice demanded that 
 we be numbered among the damned, has humiliated us 
 and made us feel to be the meanest and least of all the 
 objects of His love ; and in the midst of our revelings 
 we have been made to feel that we truly represented the 
 
362 APPENDIX. 
 
 dog that had returned to his vomit, and the sow that 
 was washed to her wallowing in the mire, and that it 
 would have been better for us not to have been born. 
 
 We could not see how God could be just and ever par- 
 don such a vile and corrupt renegade as we had been 
 from the faith once committed unto us ; hence we felt 
 to be justly sinking down into the sloughs of despair, 
 where God and His Christ would never visit us again 
 with the comforting influence of His Holy Spirit. We 
 spent many horrible hours and sleepless nights over 
 these great sins and violations of our solemn promises to 
 our God, who had ever been merciful and kind to us. 
 We made great efforts with our romance to conceal our 
 thoughts and troubles from mortal man, until one 
 dismal night, when all sleep had forsaken us, and we 
 felt to be sinking into deeper and deeper chasms of ruin, 
 on account of disobedience and sin, and dared not pre- 
 sume to couch ourself upon our knees and ask Him to 
 have mercy upon us, fearing that He would strike us 
 dead for mockery ; hence we called upon our dear wife 
 to pray for us, hoping to have one more sweet commun- 
 ion with our God through the intercessions of her 
 prayers. After some hesitancy she knelt by our bed at 
 a late hour of the night, and supplicated a throne of 
 grace in our behalf, which afforded us some relief ; for 
 we had great confidence in her Christian piety. She 
 had ever lived, since our first acquaintance with her, an 
 humble and devoted Christian, and was baptized after 
 
APPENDIX. 363 
 
 our marriage, into the Primitive Baptist church, by- 
 Elder Jesse Tomhn, in the year 1857, at Mt. Parod, Dale 
 county, Alabama. At the baptism of our wife we were 
 wonderfully wrought upon to follow her into the liquid 
 grave, and thus fulfill the commands of our Lord ; but 
 our God had ordered it otherwise, and we now feel to 
 see the handwriting of an all-wise and merciful God in 
 staying our desire. We had not been sufficiently 
 humiliated and killed to the love, pride and arrogance of 
 tlie world. The vesture that God had prepared for us 
 would not cover our ponderous and self -exalted dimen- 
 sions. His clothing would not meet around our chest ; 
 His pants would only reach to our knees ; His shirt did 
 not have a sufficiency of gaudy ruffles ; His plume was 
 too small for our cap. We could never go to the church 
 and relate a fabulous, uncertain dream, caused by hallu- 
 cination or a disordered brain. We must have the 
 miraculous experience of a Paul, and the Christian piety 
 and fortitude of our dear old mother, before we could go 
 to the church ; we must tell a very exalted experience, 
 and be revered among all the saints ; our influence and 
 grandeur must rival the armies of Antichrist ; we must 
 not be humiliated in our professional aspirations with 
 such lowliness as we witnessed among the Old Baptists. 
 If we ever joined them, our example must exalt their 
 standing of pride and arrogance. But, thanks be to our 
 God, He has trimmed us down and humiliated us, until 
 His vesture is too large for us ; it laps over our chest ; 
 
364 APPENDIX. 
 
 His pants extend beyond our feet ; His shirt is too 
 gaudy, and His plume is too large, and we feel 
 
 That if we are a saint at all, 
 We surely are the least of all. 
 
 Immediately after our madness that followed the re- 
 sults of the war, and while we were in great trouble on 
 account of our sins of commission and omission, we 
 made several resolves to unite with our Fullerite or New 
 School Baptist friends. We based our preference upon 
 their popularity and influence, together with what is 
 known among popular circles as liberality, to-wit : they 
 could carry the offering of Abel in one hand, and the 
 offering of Cain in the other ; they could lug the world 
 and the church simultaneously. This was very pleasant 
 to us, for we were much enthused with notoriety. We 
 hoped for a few years to find a home among these 
 people ; and, be it known, occasionally we were wonder- 
 fully fed by them. But the more we attended their re- 
 vival meetings, and the more we associated with them, 
 the more we likened them to Judas of old, who betrayed 
 his Lord for thirty pieces of silver. We found that only 
 part of the ministry had been given to them, as was to 
 Judas, and that they only preached a part of the truth ; 
 just enough to ensnare the poor, feeble lambs of God, 
 and then rifle their persons with the false theory of sav- 
 ing souls with means and instrumentalities, based upon 
 Mr. Fuller's false theory of a universal atonement and a 
 special application. This, to our mind, was more absurd 
 
APPENDIX. 365 
 
 than the theory of our Methodist friends, who were 
 rivaling our missionary friends for supremacy in arro- 
 gance and numbers ; who claimed that God was wooing 
 and beseeching the people to be saved, and that He was 
 willing and anxious for them to be saved, but denied 
 Himself the ability to save them ; having delegated to 
 them the power of spiritual free and moral agency, and 
 denying the foreknowledge of God, who comprehended 
 the eternal condition of all men, individually and 
 collectively, before the world began. This drove us 
 from our Missionary Baptist friends, and we were 
 compelled to go back to our first love. We had 
 been raised by a Primitive Baptist mother, and had 
 learned to love and revere the Old Baptists from our 
 childhood, and could not regard them as being any 
 other than the church of Christ ; yet there was a part of 
 their theory that neither our natural nor spiritual vision 
 could comprehend ; therefore we could not do otherwise 
 than suspect their inconsistency, and our conscience for- 
 bade our uniting with them until we could comprehend 
 their doctrine in all of its bearings. We could not see 
 how it was possible for God to be just, and not give all 
 the human family an equal chance for heaven and im- 
 mortal glory ; yet we dared not call in question His fore- 
 knowledge and predestination. How it was that God 
 would create a set of human beings, and predestinate 
 according to foreknowledge that a certain part of them 
 should stand saved in the eternal mind of Jehovah, and 
 the other part stand lost in the mind of Jehovah from 
 
366 APPENDIX. 
 
 the foundation of the world, and yet God be just, was 
 something that our benighted mind could not compre- 
 hend. 
 
 It was in the year 1870 that we were undergoing this 
 dreadful scourge, and hailing between so many opinions, 
 when John C. Burress, (editor of the " Notasulga Uni- 
 versalist Herald") who was an able Universalist minis- 
 ter, put up at our entertainment ; and be it known, we 
 never entertained a more refined, Christian-like gentle- 
 man. He preached two interesting discourses upon the 
 subject of the atonement, and to some extent removed 
 our great hobby-horse, in regard to the injustice of God 
 in creating human beings, and at the same time His 
 foreknowledge, knowing that they would be eternally 
 lost. He preached a universal atonement, and a final 
 universal application. He taught that all violators of 
 God's holy law must be punished, until punishment was 
 adequte to offence, either here or hereafter, after which 
 all would finally merge into the body of Christ ; and he 
 quoted as proof, "For as in Adam all die, even so in 
 Christ shall all be made alive." — I Cor. xv. 22. 
 
 This was soul-cheering to us, and harmonized with our 
 natural reason, and had the semblance of justice incor- 
 porated in it. We embraced this doctrine for about 
 twelve months, but made a complete failure in harmo- 
 nizing it with the word of God, and were compelled to 
 discard Universalism or the Bible. We chose the Bible 
 as our better counselor. 
 
 During all these years of conflict we never failed to at- 
 
APPENDIX. 367 
 
 tend the meetings of our Old Baptist friends, when it did 
 not seriously conflict with other business ; and, be it 
 known, we were wonderfully fed by them ; and espe- 
 cially were we entertained when they preached upon the 
 subject of experimental religion, and dwelt upon their 
 travail from nature's night to the glorious light and lib- 
 erty of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Under this kind of 
 preaching our eyes were always bathed with involuntary 
 tears, in spite of our efforts to suppress them. At that 
 time the Old Baptist's pulpit was filled at " Baptist Rest," 
 Brundidge, Pike county, Alabama, once a month, by 
 our much esteemed and revered brother in Christ, Eld. 
 E. T. Webb, now of Winnsborough, Wood county, 
 Texas, under whose able ministration we have many 
 times been made to rejoice and render praise and adora- 
 tion to our God. He preached the glorious doctrine of 
 salvation by grace ; unconditional salvation on the part 
 of the creature man, a special atonement, and applied 
 the blood of Christ especially to those whom the Father 
 gave the Son, and chose in the Son before the world be- 
 gan. He preached that all the human family had an 
 undivided interest in Jesus Christ in our temporal salva- 
 tion, and Christ lived up to the requirements of the law 
 to a jot and tittle, and that in a law sense he died for the 
 sins of all alike, and as a result of that lif e and death all 
 are the beneficiaries of the blessings pertaining to this 
 life ; but that He shed his blood especially for the be- 
 liever, or those whom the Father gave the Son before 
 the world began. This was a glorious doctrine to the 
 
368 APPENDIX. 
 
 believer, and put the believer's eternal salvation above 
 peradventures. But we could not reconcile this theory 
 with the justice of God in suffering the others to be lost, 
 although we loved and cherished the doctrine, and it 
 seemed to harmonize with the word of God. 
 
 At this time we were engaged in the drug business, 
 associated with general merchandise. Our capital was 
 small, and we made a very unfortunate purchase of goods 
 in New York. Immediately after which, the cotton- 
 worm devastated the cotton crop of the entire country, 
 and we made a complete failure in liquidating the liabili- 
 ties that were against us, and had to compromise the 
 debts with our merchandise, store-house and homestead. 
 This humiliated our pride ; and rather than be chagrined 
 by our former rivals, we determined upon emigrating to 
 Texas, where we could form new associations, and per- 
 haps live a more quiet and Christian-like life, and be 
 freed to some extent, from former wicked associations 
 and influences that surrounded us, who knew too much 
 of our wicked career for their company to be pleasant to 
 us. We boarded the train at Troy, Alabama, January 
 3d, 1872, with our wife, four children and two sisters-in- 
 law with limited means, to try the realities of our pro- 
 spective western home. We located at Clayton, Panola 
 county, Texas. We found but few Old Baptists in that 
 community, and no visible organized church. We 
 finally found six or eight in the surrounding country 
 that were holding letters. We put our wits to work to 
 constitute them into a church, and soon succeeded. The 
 
APPENDIX. 369 
 
 first pastorate supply was Elder Peter Miller, then Elder 
 Wyatt Coleman, and next Eld. J. B. Brassfield, all of 
 whom have passed from time into eternity. But our 
 God in His wisdom sent us an able supply from Linclon 
 county, Mo., in the person of Elder Charles Holcomb, 
 under whose ministration we have had many refreshing 
 seasons of comfort and delight. Our heart to-day pul- 
 sates with emotions of untold joys in commemoration 
 of the ever-to-be-remembered first Sunday in June, 1876, 
 when our dear brother, Eld. Charles Holcomb, unfolded 
 to us in thrilling and lucid arguments, sustained by the 
 word of God, our great puzzle, and plainly showed us 
 how God could be just and exclude the children of wrath 
 from all eternity from heaven and immortal glory. His 
 text was, " All that the Father giveth me shall come to 
 me ; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast 
 out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own 
 will, but the will of Him that sent me. And this is the 
 Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He 
 hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it 
 up again at the last day," — John vi. 27, 29. He proved 
 beyond cavil that no one could come to Christ except 
 those whom the Father gave the Son in the covenant of 
 grace between the Father and the Son before the world 
 began. He proved that the Father carried the humanity 
 of the Son all through the days of old, and that the Son 
 stood a Lamb slain for those that the Father gave him all 
 through the days of antiquity, up to his advent, death, 
 burial and resurrection. He divided the office of the 
 
370 APPENDIX. 
 
 humanity and the office of the divinity of the Son. He 
 made the humanity of Christ to be a man of sorrow and 
 acquainted with grief, (Is. liii. 3,) and that his humanity 
 made all the changes that our Arminian friends accuse 
 the divinity of making. He proved that his divinity was 
 without variableness or the shadow of turning ; the same 
 yesterday, to-day and forever. He proved that Christ 
 had not, would not, reject an applicant whom the Father 
 gave him in the covenant of grace before the world be- 
 gan, but that he had and would reject the others, they 
 being the children of wrath and fitted to destruction, and 
 that the devil was their spiritual father. He then argued 
 that the Son did not come to do the will of his humanity; 
 if so, he would encircle the whole human family in his 
 embrace, and save them with an everlasting salvation, 
 just as you and I would do : but that he came to do the 
 will of the Father, and that he must do the will of the 
 Father according to agreement, regardless of the oppo- 
 sition of his human will ; and that his Father's will was, 
 that of all that he had given him he should lose nothing, 
 but should raise them up again at the last day ; and that 
 " again " implied that they had once been in heaven and 
 in Christ, and that they came down from heaven in 
 Christ ; for the Father chose them in him before the 
 world began. He then took up a Bible two-seed doctrine, 
 and showed the difference between the vessels of wrath 
 and the vessels of mercy, and quoted, " And I will put 
 enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy 
 
APPENDIX. 371 
 
 seed and her seed : it shall bruise thy head, and thou 
 shalt bruise his heel." — Gen. hi. 15. 
 
 He proved that all flesh was as grass, and that these 
 two seeds had no allusion to the flesh, but that they 
 represented the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of Anti- 
 christ, or Satan ; and the seed of the woman represented 
 the church or Spirit of Christ ; and that the seed of the 
 serpent represented the spirit of Satan, or Antichrist. 
 
 He illustrated with the allegory of the potter's clay : 
 "Nay but, man, who art thou that repliest against 
 God % Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, 
 Why hast thou made me thus ? Hath not the potter 
 power over the clay, of the same lump to make one ves- 
 sel unto honor and another unto dishonor ? " etc. — Eom. 
 ix. 20, 21. 
 
 He claimed that the potter represented God, and that 
 the clay represented Adam and Eve, and that the vessels 
 represented them and their posterity ; and that as the 
 potter had the power and right to make any kind of ves- 
 sel out of his clay, and that no one had the right to say 
 whether he should make vessels of honor or dishonor, in 
 like manner God had the right to do as He chose with 
 His own, and no one had the right to say to Him, Why 
 hast thou made me thus ? He then proved that it was 
 absolutely necessary for God to create or make vessels of 
 wrath, in order to make or create vessels of mercy ; for 
 He could not have one without the other ; hence He 
 made both, and all for His own glory. He then argued 
 that there was no difference in the clay out of which they 
 
3^2 APPENDIX. 
 
 were made, but that the difference was in their spiritual 
 contents that fitted them for wrath or for glory ; and 
 that the vessels of mercy were by nature just like the 
 vessels of wrath, but that God had made them suscept- 
 ible to the reception of the Spirit of Christ, and had not 
 the others, but had fitted them to destruction. 
 
 He made the thing so plain that our whole soul was 
 entranced with rapturous emotions of unspeakable joy. 
 Our great enigma was explained away ; and the church 
 of Christ, with all its doctrine and glories, was in vivid 
 and transparent splendor before our spiritual vision. It 
 was all that our moral nature could do to suppress our 
 weakness, for we felt like shouting aloud and rendering 
 hallowed praises to our God. We went home humiliated 
 at our former stupidity, but rejoicing in the light and 
 liberty of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 
 
 But ! had we ever experienced that change of affec- 
 tions that is so peculiar to the people of God, so that we 
 could offer ourselves to them and live with them ? We 
 were made to tremble with doubts ; but we knew that 
 we loved them, for we had the witness entwined around 
 our soul. Our soul was filled with supplications and 
 prayers ; and if we were deceived, we prayed to be un- 
 deceived. If the vision of our youthful days was a 
 myth, we prayed to have it obliterated from our 
 memory. If it was real, we begged our Heavenly Mas- 
 ter to make it manifest to us. We approached our 
 couch at night with humble supplications to our God 
 for mercy, and for a manifestation of His will toward 
 
APPENDIX. 373 
 
 us. We finally dropped into a tranquil sleep, and our 
 former vision again appeared to us : the same aperture 
 again was opened in the housetop, and the same three 
 dead babes upon the white sheet or litter gradually de- 
 scended and lay by our side, just as they left us in Janu- 
 ary, 1853. They lay in silent death for a few minutes, 
 and then began to revive. Their rosy lips and tinted 
 cheeks were soon restored to their wonted color, and 
 their dancing feet and clasping hands were again in the 
 air, rendering seeming praises to their God. In this con- 
 dition they gradually ascended through the aperture in the 
 housetop, and were soon enraptured in ethereal frui- 
 tion. 
 
 When the morning dawned, and our peaceful slumbers 
 were arrested by the busy wife and prattling children, we 
 were seized with bright visions of eternal day, and our 
 soul was made to rejoice in hope of the glory that awaits 
 the chosen of the Father, the redeemed of the Son and 
 the quickened of the Holy Spirit. But these heavenly 
 ejaculations were soon quelled with the fears of our hope 
 being based upon a fabulous and uncertain dream, and 
 for days we were halting between fear and hope. Our 
 burden of fear gradually diminished, and was ultimately 
 supplanted at times by an insurmountable desire for bap- 
 tism, encouraged by the positive injunction, "If ye love 
 me, keep my commandments." But, in the name of 
 heaven's GTod, how could we ever get up moral fortitude 
 to relate the sad story of our miserable and wicked life 
 to so good a people, and ask them to claim Christian fel- 
 
374: APPENDIX. 
 
 lowship with us ? We appointed several times when we 
 would perform this painful task ; but when the time ar- 
 rived we were overwhelmed with our insignificance, and 
 dared not mock our God. 
 
 We finally predestinated that we would approach the 
 church through the medium of a written account of 
 what we hoped the good Lord had done for us in the 
 pardon of our sins, feeling that it would be impossible 
 for us to approach the church in person, on account of 
 our own weakness and want of Christian fortitude. We 
 felt to know that the emotions of our soul would over- 
 whelm us, and that we would not be able to give utter- 
 ance to our convictions. Hence we wrote a condensed 
 history of our exercises of mind, and how and what we 
 hoped the Lord had done for us in the pardon of our sins, 
 in which case we asked the church to act as a set of 
 jurors, and say whether these exercises were real or im- 
 aginary, upon whose decision we intended to act. 
 
 We handed this document to our wife, with a request 
 that she read it carefully, and then hand it to the pastor 
 of the church, upon condition, however, that if she 
 did not have Christian fellowship for such a relation as 
 we had written, she burn the document at once. We 
 left her with our heart heaving with anxiety and our 
 eyes bathed in tears. 
 
 When we returned she had committed our cherished 
 medium of communicating our travail of soul and desire 
 for baptism to the church to the flames, and told us that 
 things did not work with her this way, and that she 
 
APPENDIX. 375 
 
 thought we had better wait for the Lord's time, when 
 He would make us able to give satisfaction to the church 
 in a very few words. This, to us, was a piercing dagger 
 to our poor, afflicted soul. We felt to know that our 
 wife had no fellowship for us, and that her quick 
 spiritual discernment had detected the very thing that 
 had been giving us so much trouble, and that all was a 
 delusion and that our wife had only acted faithful with 
 us, in warning us of our great dilemma. We then 
 abandoned the idea for a time of ever offering ourself to 
 the church for membership, but determined that we 
 would discharge our Christian duties as best we could 
 outside of the church, until we could have stronger 
 manifestations of the power and goodness of God in the 
 pardon of our sins. During many years the members 
 of the churches to which we had lived adjacent had at 
 times expected us to ask for membership, and had often 
 talked with us upon the all-important subject to us. 
 Finally Eld. Charles Holcomb, who was, and now is, 
 pastor of Mt. Carmel church, sought a private interview 
 with us, when we related some of the trials and exercises 
 of our soul, and how we had sought admission into the 
 church through the medium of a written communication 
 and what our wife did with it, and how we were dis- 
 couraged, and our great humility of soul on account of 
 unworthiness. He offered us great and soul-cheering 
 encouragements, by telling us that our doubts, fears and 
 trials were characterized by every child of grace, and 
 were one of the strongest evidences of our having been 
 
376 APPENDIX. 
 
 born again ; and that by all the evidences that were 
 manifest in our case, it was our duty in following the 
 commands of our Lord to at once submit to the ordi- 
 nance of baptism. He regretted exceedingly the course 
 that our wife had pursued ; but we forbade his speaking 
 of it in her presence. But since this is all in the past, 
 we feel to thank our God that it thus happened unto us ; 
 for, to us, we feel to see the handwriting of a merciful 
 and all- wise God, as a forerunner to the task that we 
 have just completed ; for while we were laboring under 
 these soul-trying troubles we were wonderfully impressed 
 with the importance of writing a book, in which we felt 
 at times that we could demonstrate to every heaven- 
 born soul, whether in the church, in the world, or in 
 Babylon, the beauties, grandeur and glory of the church 
 of Jesus Christ, together with the everlasting covenant 
 of redemption and salvation by grace before the world 
 began. We felt also to be able, with the aid of the 
 divine light that was at times before our spiritual vision, 
 to expose the errors, heresies and dogmas of the 
 churches of Antichrist, so as to cause many of the true 
 Israel of God to come out from among them. " Where- 
 fore come out from among them, and be ye separate, 
 saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing ; and I 
 will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and yo 
 shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord 
 Almighty."— II Cor. vi. 17, 18. 
 
 We prayed over this impression for many months, 
 asking our God that if it be of man, to erase it from the 
 
APPENDIX. 377 
 
 vocabulary of our thoughts ; but that if it be of God, to 
 inspire us with language and thoughts to consummate 
 the grand and glorious undertaking ; and the thoughts 
 that are condensed in this book constitute our success or 
 failure. 
 
 During the five years that we have been engaged in 
 this work, we have many times been overwhelmed with 
 the duty of baptism, and powerfully propelled at times 
 to go forward in the discharge of this solemn ordinance; 
 but we had resolved to wait until the completion of our 
 book, and then if our manuscript was received and en- 
 dorsed by the Elders of the church, that we would be 
 more reconciled to the genuineness of our conversion, and 
 would go forward in the discharge of what we hoped to 
 be our duty. We therefore completed the task, but 
 with much opposition. Our wife and children vigorously 
 opposed us. They conceived an idea that our work 
 would be too meager to stand the test of criticism, and 
 would ultimately retard our standing in society. But 
 we determined, regardless of wife, children, money, pro- 
 fessional lustre, or the devices, opinions or doctrines of 
 men or devils, to follow the biddings of our Lord. 
 
 Soon after the completion of our manuscript, we offered 
 ourselves to the church for membership and baptism, at 
 Mt. Carmel, twenty miles east of Henderson, where our 
 wife's membership had been since the constitution of 
 the church at that place ; and to our great joy and com- 
 fort she manifested much satisfaction and interest in our 
 baptism. When we presented ourself before the confer- 
 
378 APPENDIX. 
 
 ence, praying for membership, we hoped to be able to 
 tell much of our travail of soul ; but we were overcome 
 by the emotions of our soul, and our utterance failed us; 
 but we were received, and baptized by our revered 
 brother, Eld. Charles Holcomb, July 1st, A. D. 1883. 
 We called for and were granted letters of dismission for 
 ourself and wife on the day of our baptism, and with six 
 others we were constituted into Siloam church, in the 
 city of Henderson, on the 4th day of July thereafter, 
 since which time we have had some seasons of joy and 
 consolation with the people of God, mingled with many 
 doubts, fears and sensations of un worthiness. 
 
 " With Christ in God your life is hid ; 
 These words at once thy fears forbid ; 
 For he must God himself dethrone, 
 Who takes that life, with Jesus one. 
 
 Though but a spark, 'tis heavenly fire ; 
 May dwindle oft, but ne'er expire ; 
 Till brighter than the solar rays, 
 It shines through everlasting days. 
 
 Earth, hell, and sin, that hateful name, 
 Together strive to quench the same ; 
 Yet still it burns, his power to show, 
 In spite of all that hell can do. 
 
 God is its shield, He guards it well, 
 When tempests rise and billows swell ; 
 'Tis hid by God, where none but He 
 By his omniscient eye can see. 
 
APPENDIX. 379 
 
 ' Tis that blest hope that never dies, 
 Beyond the reach of hell it lies ; 
 ' Twill flourish and immortal be, 
 When death is lost in victory. 
 
 Shall this, O Christian, make thee say, 
 I'll serve my lusts and from thee stray ? 
 Nay, rather thus : My God, to thee 
 Let every power devoted be. " 
 
 
Dr. S. M. CARLTON, 
 
 PHYSICIAN, SUpON & OBSTETRICIAN. 
 
 Tenders his professional services to the citizens of Henderson and surrounding 
 country. 
 
 Having availed himself of all the advantages of the best schools in the United 
 States, together with an experience of twenty-eight years at the bedside, he hopes to 
 merit your confidence and patronage. He will avail himself of all the advantages of 
 the age in the concentration of medicines, so as to secure potency of action and con- 
 venience of administration. 
 N. B.— Special attention given to Obstetrics and Diseases of Women and Children. 
 
 CARLTON'S GREAT SOUTHERN CHILL TONIC. 
 
 It is no patent nostrum. It is strictly sanative and free from poison. It removes 
 malarial poison from the system, and builds up and purifies the blood. It establishes 
 free and healthy digestion in Dyspepsia, and corrects the slothful secretions and ex- 
 cretions of the great depurators of the human economy— the Liver, Kidneys and Skin. 
 It will cure Hepatitis, or any morbid engorgement of the Liver that is curable. Every 
 package is warranted to cure Chronic Chills, if directions are faithfully carried out, or 
 money returned. Price $5, strictly in advance. Sent by registered letter, P. O. Order, 
 or in person. Medicine sent by return mail — each package accompanied with full 
 directions. 
 
 CHRONIC DISEASES. 
 
 Having made the many Chronic Diseases that humanity is heir to a specialty for 
 many years, he will confidently treat all cases, of both sexes (that are curable) entrusted 
 to his care, at $5 per month, strictly in advance, and the medicine will be sent by return 
 mail. If not mailable, your family Physician or Druggist can supply the deficiency at 
 a small cost. Please write plainly your name, post office, County and State, together 
 with all the symptoms in your case : if there is pain in the head, back, loins, kidneys, 
 bowels, chest, uterus, between the shoulders, in the right or left sides, if the Liver or 
 Spleen is enlarged ; if there is any cough ; what kind of sputa ? If the bowels are 
 constipated or laxed, the color of stools, if the food digests well, if there are cold feet 
 and hands, palpitation of the heart, difficult breathing, nervous debility, accompanied 
 with uterine difficulties, prolapsus, inflammation, ulceration, retroversion, fluor albus, 
 [whites], difficult or painful menstruation, cessation of menses, difficult and painful 
 micturition, etc., etc. He will also treat Eheumatism, Neuralgia, Piles, Scrofula, 
 Dropsy, Erysipelas, sore legs, etc., etc. Address 
 
 S. M. CARLTON, M. D., 
 
 HENDERSON, RUSK CO., TEXAS. 
 REFERENCES: County Officials of Panola and Rusk Counties. 
 
 Note.— I do not propose to cure the sick with kid gloves, nor with aristocratic airs, 
 but with Sanative Medicines, based upon correct theory and practical observations. 
 
 S.M. C. 
 

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