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j26 
 
 ADDITIONAL SUPPLEMENTAL HEARINGS ""^^ 
 
 BEFORE 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE IN CHARGE 
 
 OF THE 
 
 I LEGISLATIVE, EXECUTIVE, AND JUDICIAL 
 
 i 
 
 BILL FOR 1892. 
 
 / — ■--'r"' 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Theodore Roosevelt, Civil Service Commission 3 
 
 F. Brackett, Chief Clerk Treasury Department 12 
 
 E. M. Dawson, Chief Clerk Interior Department 14 
 
 WASHINGTON": 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE. 
 
 1891. 
 
 HA 
 

 CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION. 
 
 January 6, 1891. 
 STATEMENT OF MR. THEODORE ROOSEVELT. 
 
 The Chairman. We are inquiring as to wisdom of providing you with a force of 
 ■examiners, which are now detailed to you from the several Departments. The ques- 
 tion which arises here is as to the wisdom and economy which would wait upon doing 
 what, you propose, and the committee decided to hear you on that proposition. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. Does the law now hx your force? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It does not. 
 
 The Chairman. Tlie question arose as to whether or not under the law, and with- 
 out a change of law, we could grant your request, and give you the force of examiners 
 which you ask for. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. In other words, would it not be subject to a point of order, being 
 a change of law f 
 
 Mr. EOOSEVELT. The law merely says that the President shall designate a suitable 
 number of persons in the official service of the United States to be members of boards 
 of examiners. If we have ten clerks in our service, the President can designate 
 those as well as others. As a matter of fact, he leaves that to us. Of the clerks we 
 now have, two or three are now acting as examiners. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any statute limiting the number of clerks ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Not at all. As a matter of fact it has been steadily increased 
 since the Commission was organized. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the idea is that if we give you a number of clerks, not call- 
 ing them examiners, the President could designate those as examiners? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We, ourselves, could do so. 
 
 The Chairman. How would you select those men ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Our proposition was not to make any increase in the expenses, 
 but merelj' cut off the ten now detailed from the different Departments, and appro- 
 priate for them for our Department. That would simply take ten examiners that we 
 have now and give them to us. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. You would turn down these Department examiners ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Turn them down. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they equal to the emergency ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We have had great difficulty with that matter. For instance, 
 about 45 per cent, of our work is done for the Post-Office Department. I think that 
 until about four months ago the Post-Office Department only detailed to us one man, 
 and we had him for only a part of the time, so that we did not have quite 10 per 
 cent, of the force from that Department that we ought to have had, although 45 per 
 cent, of our work came from that Department. We did not have a man from the Rail- 
 way Mail Service after that was classified, and we had to notify the Postmaster- 
 General that we were unable to mark the papers, unless the Department gave us a 
 sufficient force of men to do the marking. It was not until we refused to do it that 
 we got some men who were able to do that work. 
 
 From the Navy and Treasury Departments last year we had two men detailed who 
 were good fellows but entirely unable to do our work, they made an enornious per- 
 centage of errors. We told the Departments that we would rather be without any 
 men at all than to have these. After sis months we got other men in their places. 
 That is a sample of our difficulties, and the same thing has occurred several 
 times. We find that that is the effect of the system. A good man is often reluctant 
 to be detailed to us, because he loses a chance of promotion in the Department from 
 which he comes by being taken away from the eye of his chief, and may thus be 
 passed by. There is a great temptation on the part of the Departments to deal out 
 to us their deadwood, and last year instead of having ten, which we were entitled 
 to, we only had seven, and had to send back three of them. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. Everything being equal, would not your Navy man, your Army 
 man, and your Post-Office man be better qualified to pass upon the qualifications of 
 clerks for their respective Departments ? 
 
Mr, EOOSKVELT. No, sir. We hold some examinations for all kinds of clerks, andl 
 in positions requiring experts vce call iu experts outside of those from the Depart- 
 ments. The duties differ more in some bureaus in the same Department than they do 
 between two different Departments. The law iu the Departments at Washington has- 
 been substantially observed during the entire seven and a half years of the Commis- 
 sion's existence, with the exception that, owi"g to a peculiar construction of the law 
 affecting one divisiou of about 200 men of the Pension Bureau (the division including 
 special pension examiners), the result in that division is less satisfactory; that is, of 
 this email force of 200 men, nearly as many separations occurred under both the 
 present and the last administrations as iu the entire balance of the force in the Gov- 
 ernmental Departments, numbering nearly 8,000 employes. My figures may not be 
 quite accurate, as I am speaking from memory, but they are substantially so. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you mean that out of the 200 special examiners in oue division 
 of the Pension Bureau there were more removals thau out of «,000 clerks iu the several 
 Departments ? 
 
 Mr. KoosEVELT. More separai ions ; but among the other clerks outside of this di- 
 vision in the Pension Office there were no greater percentage of changes than iu the 
 other Departments. This shows that the fault is in the peculiarity of the law, not 
 iu its administration. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. You do not mean to include in that a clerk who voluntarily resigns? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. 1 refer lo separations, but at the same time there is this much to 
 be said: We have found, as a matter of fact, that we must bracket removals and 
 resignations, because we have no means of knowing whether a man resigns volun- 
 tarily, or is forced to resign. Many resign voluntarily, and others are practically 
 told that they will be removed if they do not resign. But in this particular bureau 
 the trouble is that the service is by law only for a short fixed period. This has direct 
 reference to the statement made by Mr. Washington on the floor of the House at the 
 last session. If correctly reported in the Congressional Record, Mr. Washington 
 said, that of the Departmental appointees coming in through our examinations dur- 
 ing Mr. Cleveland's administration, 95 per cent, had been removed in the first year 
 of Mr. Harrison's administration. The direct reverse was the case — 92 per cent- 
 were left, and only 8 per cent, of the clerks entering under Mr. 'Cleveland's adminis- 
 tration were removed during the first year of President Harrison's administration. 
 In one year of Mr. Cleveland's administration about 7i per cent, of the clerks ap- 
 pointed under the operation of the civil-service law during Mr. Arthur's administra- 
 tion, were removed, and during the last year of President Arthur's administration,, 
 there were removed between 6 and 7 per cent, of the clerks appointed during his own 
 administration; and the difference between those removed under Mr. Arthur's ad- 
 ministration and those removed under Mr. Harrison's or Mr. Cleveland's administra- 
 tions affords a fair measure of the changes on political grounds. In the Depart- 
 ments here the law is observed perfectly well. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. Then the political removals are no more than the nonpolitical? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It is nothing like so much. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. You say Mr. Arthur removed 6i per cent., and Cleveland 7|, and 
 Harrison 8? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. The 1 per cent, additional for Mr. Cleveland I think 
 would represent the whole matter. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. Your statement has no reference to any removal, except as to- 
 those who entered under the civil-service law ? 
 
 Mr. Rousevelt. I refer to the classified service. 
 , Mr. Dockery. Your statement does not include removals made under this adminis- 
 tration during the time when the civil-service law was suspended in the railway mail 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. My statement has nothing to do with the Railway Mail Service. 
 If you will refer to our letter published December 27 last, in reference to the Post- 
 master-General's Report, you will see the facts fully set out for that service. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Where will I find the number of removals made in the Railway 
 Mail Service during the time the Civil Service rules were suspended as to that De- 
 partment ? 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. And the number of removals by the Hon. Don. M. Dickinson ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The same report shows that there had been 4,800 changes in the 
 service under the last Administration — I mean in the Railway Mail Service. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Civil Service not applying ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. No. Under the present Administration, in the eight weeks pre- 
 ceding the classification of the service, between 1,900 and 2,000 changes were made. 
 Those are the figures in the report of the Postmaster-General. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. Will you please furnish this committee with an accurate statement 
 in reference to removals, so that we can present this question intelligently upon the 
 floor. 
 
Mr. Roosevelt. I would rather refer you to pages 16 and 17 of the Postmaster- 
 'General'a Report for 1889, which contains these tignres. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. You speak of 200 special examiners in the Pension Bureau. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. And men in corresponding positions. I think some are chief ex- 
 aminers ; they were not all special examiners. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. I want you to correct that in this respect; as I recollect it, there 
 are only 150 special examiners authorized by law. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I think there are some medical examiners, and some chief ex- 
 aminers, and the total is about 200. Understand me, the defect evidently lies with 
 the law rather than with its administration. The percentage of removals in the 
 Pension Bureau outside of this special force is about the same as in the other Depart- 
 ments. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. I recollect this statement to have been made by General Black, and 
 you may have run across a similar statement, that in a change of 7.5 of those special 
 examiners, when he came into office, in lilling their places 73 Democrats were obtained, 
 and two of them he did not know the politics of. In the changes which have been 
 made under this administration, have you any knowledge of any action on the part 
 ■of the Civil Service Commission, or the Secretary of the Interior, or the Commissioner 
 ■of Pensions, by which like changes in that Department have occurred in which 
 Democrats were turned out and Republicans put in their places ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I have no knowledge about politics entering into it. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Is ir a fact that there has been collusion between this Civil Service 
 •Commission under President Harrison and the Commissioner of Pensions, as there 
 was supposed to be between the Civil Service Commission and General Black, by 
 which 73 out of 75 special examiners who were changed were Dem^ crats ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It seems to me that it scarcely ought to be necessary for me to 
 say that tliere has been no collusion between the Civil Service Commission and Geu- 
 -eral Black, or any one else in the United States, during my service in the Commis- 
 sion. It would be wild nonsense to make such a charge. 
 
 The Chairman. Between you and them ? 
 
 Mr. RoosKVELT. There has not been. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. Mr. Cannon means between the Commission and Commissioners 
 Tanner and Raum. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Of course there has been no collusion between the present Com- 
 mission and Mr. Tanner or Mr. Raum. I can only speak by hearsay ; but I think I 
 can give you a complete explanation of what you call collusion between the old 
 Commission and General Black. It was owing to what I regard as a most unfoitu- 
 -nate construction of one of the rules. For the service at large we hold competitive 
 examinations. A man comes in and the papers are marked without his name being 
 known. The three highest on the list are certified to the Department chief for his 
 selection. Unfortunately, in regard to this special division the Commission at its 
 inception, when Mr. Dudley was Commissioner of Pensions, set the limit for passing 
 too low, at 50 per cent, (instead of 70, as is the case in other hranches of the service). 
 Moreover under the rule the whole list was certified up. That was done under the 
 rule approved by the President. This amounted to allowing the appointment of any 
 man who passed a low pass examination. It did away with the competitive feature. 
 That was continued, not only during the administration of Mr. Dudley, but during 
 most of the administration of Mr. Black. There was no need of collusion. Owing to 
 what I regard as the very unfortunate rule of the Commission (concerning this special 
 'force) it was possible for Mr. Dudley and Mr. Black to appoint any man who passed 
 this loyr examination. They were allowed by the rules Co pick him out, no matter 
 whether he stO')d high or low on the list. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. That explains how General Black was enabled, in appointing 75 
 special examiners, to select 73 Democrats and 2 whose politics he did not know. Has 
 "that practice obtained under this administration ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It has not. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. Was not this practice inaugurated under Mr. Dudley ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Pi-ecisely, and it was changed under President Cleveland's ad- 
 ministration, during the latter part of General Black's incumbency. While that was 
 an unfortunate rule, it seems to me that it does not imply collusion between the Civil 
 Service Commission and the Commissioner of Pensions, because collusion was not 
 necessary. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. The spirit of the law was violated ; and you claim that the Civil 
 Service Commission was not responsible for that violation ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I did not claim that. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. What do you claim? Do you claim that the responsibility rested 
 with the Commissioner of Pensions f 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I claim that the rule was, in my judgment, an unwise riile to make. 
 •Since I have been in office a dozen high officials haveasked to be allowed to employ 
 
pass or noncompetitive examinations instead of competitive examinations for some 
 particular place. We have never granted the request. 
 
 Mr. Hexdersox. Who made this rule allowing them to certify all who passed 
 above 50 per cent. ? 
 
 Mr. EooSEVELT. It was made by the Civil Service Commission during the adminis- 
 tration of President Arthur. 
 
 Mr. Henderson, Under the law the Commission under President Harrison's admin- 
 istration has made this new rule ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It was made during the latter part of Mr. Cleveland's. The Presi- 
 dent has power to alter the rules. 
 
 Mr .Forney. State what was the change made in the rules during Mr. Cleveland's 
 administration. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The change made in the rules under Mr. Cleveland's administra- 
 tion provided that the same rule should be followed in certifying for special pension, 
 examiners and the like as for certifying to clerks, copyists, stenographers, etc., in 
 the other Departmeiiral service. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. It was made by reason of this exposure of the certification of 
 73 Democrats out of 75 places to be filled ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I do not know about that. 
 
 Mr. Forney. What was the grade ? To what per cent was it changed under Mr- 
 Cleveland's administratiou ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The grade was made the same as in the other Departments); 70 
 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. I want to ask you if this is not true, that the bare fact of greater 
 security being given to clerks and employes in their tenure of itself does not tend to 
 inefficiency and carelessness in a great many instances in the public service ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. On the contrary, I believe that we have never harl as good a set 
 of piiblic servants as we have to-day of those who have come into the service through 
 our examinations, because they realize that they cannot rely on political influence. 
 When men were appointed on account of politics, you had to take into account in 
 removing a man not only his efficiency, but also whether or not the man behind him 
 would be offended if he were discharged. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. A large block of people in the classified service did not come in under 
 the Civil Service. Is it not true that the same security runs to them that runs to th& 
 employ6s that have come in under the Civil Service ; and is it not a fact that this 
 feeling of security in their tenure has tended to make them inefficient and careless in 
 many instances? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I do not believe it has. To me your question seems to imply that 
 the head of a Department will be willing to make a change for political reasons 
 (and, tlierefore, as I believe improperly), bat unwilling to make them to better the- 
 efficiency of the service. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. I am not speaking of the motive. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I give you luy belief on that subject. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. In other words, you have no knowledge? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I have no knovvledge. 
 
 Mr. Say'ERS. Do you mean to say that the same rules are observed in regard to the 
 discharge from the public service in the non-classified as in the classified service ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. No, sir. lu the classified service there are a large number of men 
 whose places were clasi-ified under President Arthur or President Cleveland, and who 
 were in those places at the time; therefore no examination was applied to them, 
 tl^ough they are still in. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. I understood you to say that during the first year of this adminis- 
 tration about the same number of special examiners were removed as were removed 
 during Mr,, Cleveland'u administratiou ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Roughly. They were not necessarily removed, however. Many 
 were merely not reappointed at the end of the yea,r. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. There has been no change of the rule which requires the three 
 highest to be certified f 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The three highest are certified. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Do you know anything about the politics of the men who have re- 
 placed men who were removed during this Administ ration ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I know absolutely nothing about their politics. I believe that 
 a large proportion of the men were old soldiers 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Argumentum. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Mr. Cannon has suggested that there was a collusion between the 
 Commission and Commissioner Black ; and we are confronted with the condition 
 under this Administration that two hundred special examiners were removed the 
 first thing. Now, I would like to know, if the two hundred examiners who succeeded 
 them were not Republicans, what was the object of their removal' 
 
 Mr. Henderson. Does he mean that they were removed or called in ? 
 
Mr. Roosevelt, They were called in. About one hundred separations occurred. 
 
 Mr. DOCKERY. Are most of them now employed in the Bureau of Pensions? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. A great many are. I presume that Mr. Dockery does not se- 
 riously make that charge. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. No ; I do not believe it. 
 
 Mr. Savers. When a departmental officer calls upon the Commission to certify a 
 man to fill a single vacancy, it is the invariable rule to send up three names ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir ; three names are sent in, and they are the three highest 
 on the list. We find always that where there is a sweeping change in any branch of 
 the service it becomes exceedingly dii3Qcult to prevent the succeeding Administra- 
 tion from making many removals. I have remonstrated against it in several cases ; 
 bu8 they say that " our fellows were turned out, and we do not want these men kept 
 in who were appointed in that way." It is a wrong feeling, I think. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. But as a matter of fact these were made for political reasons, and 
 the places are filled by Republicans? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I can not say as to that. I do not know anything about that. 
 My whole object in stating this — — 
 
 Mr. Forney (interposing). You do not know that it is not so ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I do not know anything about it at all. W« state ia our annual 
 report that we have regarded this branch of the service as no^. being satisfactory. 
 We feel that the special examiners ought to be detailed for field work from the cler- 
 ical force in the office itself. There should not be any special examiners appointed 
 from special lists for short terms. But, of course, that is the law which Congress has 
 fixed, and there is no alternative but to obey it. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Wherein is the law defective now since the rule has been changed ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The law under which these special examiners are appointed pro- 
 vides that they shall be appointed for one year. There should be no fixed term of 
 service ; and clerks in the office should be detailed to do field work. At present a great 
 many officials feel that they have a right to refuse to reappoint good men who are 
 of the opposite party if they have served for the year for which they were appointed. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. And they are turned off ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. The men go out and the head of the Bureau selects 
 new men. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Under Mr. Cleveland's administration that was done to the number 
 of two hundred ; and under Mr. Harrison's administration, they went out to the num- 
 ber of two hundred. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Two hundred is an exaggeration. Probably it was about one 
 hundred ; I think about one hundred have gone out. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. The work in their hands when Mr. Harrison's administration came 
 in amounted to over 16,000 claims, and to-day that number has been reduced, and 
 the bureau has been compelled to call the men in from the field, because. of this re- 
 duced work. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. You understand that I am making no reflection upon any Com- 
 missioner of Pensions. 
 
 Mr. Dockery. Regardless of those changes, the same number of changes were 
 made under this as under the other administration. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. There has been a wide difference in the kind of appointments. 
 
 Mr. MuTCHLER. You say that the rule has frequently been to detail clerks from the 
 Pension Bureau ^d make them special examiners in the field? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I am not familiar enough with the law to give you the informa- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr., MuTCHLER. I am speaking of the practice. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I am not familiar with the practice sufficiently to give you infor- 
 mation worth anything. 
 
 Mr. MuTCHLER. Is it a fact that they do detail men and send them into the field, 
 and is it not also a fact that when a clerk is detailed for service in the field that his 
 place is filled in the office by a new appointment or a promotion from some other 
 place ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It can not be filled in any other way. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. (To Mr. Mutchler.) You do not want to get into an error. The de- 
 tailing of a man does not make a vacancy. 
 
 Mr. Mutchler. Is it not a fact that such a man's desk is given to some other 
 clerk, or an appointment is made ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. That I do not know. 
 
 Mr. Mutchler. I understand tnis to be the fact, that when they want to get rid 
 £)f a clerk they detail him for work in the field for six or eight months. He then 
 comes back and finds that his place is occupied, and the result is he is either shoved 
 out or kept doing nothing for mouths at a time. 
 
 Mr, Cannon. You are in error about that. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I would like to make one statement on the line of Mr. Dockery's 
 
8 
 
 question. Mr. Dockery's question was by implication as to whether Democrats were 
 removed and Republicans were gotten in through new examinations. Undoubtedly, 
 it has been very difficult for the Commission to get men to apply for these examina- 
 tions who are not in sympathy with the Administration. The Commission has been 
 able to take a course of action in the Southern States that enables me to stat^ that 
 in a series of examinations throughout the Gulf and South Atlantic States the bulk 
 of those who got m by appointment were opposed in politics to the party in power. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. I am sorry to hear that. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. How did you find it out? Why do you inquire into the politics of 
 anybody? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I will tell you. At its first session, this Congress passed a law au- 
 thorizing the employment of some 600 additional clerks, mainly in the Pension Bureau. 
 That was during last July. The Southern States were then behind in their quotas. 
 We had great difficulty in getting enough men from the Southern States to come 
 in to these examinations. The difficulty was increased after the change of Adminis- 
 tration ; because many people do not believe that they can get an appointment, even 
 if they pass an examination, under an Administration with which they are not in 
 sympathy. We, therefore, held a special series of examinations throughout the 
 Southern States. Previously, we met in the rooms of the Commission half a dozen 
 correspondents of Southern newspapers, and also asked the Southern members of 
 Congress, Republicans and Democrats, to assist us in the way of advertising the 
 fact throughout their districts. 
 
 I got up an interview of about a column and a half, which was published in the 
 St. Louis Globe-Democrat, the Memphis Avalanche and Appeal, the New Orleans 
 Picayune and Times-Democrat, the Charleston News and Courier, the Kuoxville Ga- 
 zette, and other papers, explaining the fact that the Southern States were behind in 
 their quotas ; that of these new appointments somewhere in the neighborhood of two 
 or three hundred would come from the Southern States; that we would certify from 
 those States first; that we would guarantee that no attention would be paid to poli- 
 tics in the examination, marking, or certlficatiou, and that while we could give no 
 guarantee as to the action of the appointing officer we were satisfied that he would 
 pay no attention to politics. The appointing officer can reject two men out of every 
 five, so that we were able to say that of all those passing highest from the South we 
 could guarantee the appointment of three-fifths of them, which would leave room for 
 comparatively little political discrimination. 
 
 We have had more applicants from the South that came in during the preceding,four 
 years. We found that of those passing highest, instead of three-fifths being appointed, 
 nearly nine-tenths were appointed; that is to say, of the <J60 passing highest 230 odd 
 were appointed. We are required by law to make no inquiry into the politics of an 
 applicant or an eligible. There is no prohibition after the men are in against trying 
 to find out if the appointments have been made without regard to politics. The cor- 
 respondent of the New Orleans Picayune, Mr. Matthews, who is a nephew of Senator 
 Gibson, was in my office. He had taken a great interest in this matter. Louisiana 
 had been the lowest State on the register, and now she stands among the highest. 
 She has had thirty appointments during the past six months. Those thirty appointees 
 were chosen from the thirty-three highest on the register, and all the highest ones 
 were taken. That included, I should say, four or five colored people. It included 
 one man who was a resident of Louisiana, but who had been born in the North. The 
 others were all natives and born in the South. I spoke to Mr, Matthews about the 
 politics of the applicants, saying to him that I hoped some Democrats had been ap- 
 pointed. He said, "I know them almost all, and the great bulk of them are Demo- 
 crjvts. All of them that I know are Democrats." 
 
 As to South Carolina, we have means of knowing, simply because Governor Thomp- 
 son, in looking over the register, recognized in many cases the families of the men 
 as being Democratic families ; and while the appointees might not in every case 
 have the same politics the chances were that that was true in nineteen cases out of 
 twenty. We have a young man in our office named Bunn, who was appointed under 
 the civil service rules. We do not know his politics, but we accidentally learned a 
 few months ago that he is a nephew of Congressman Bunn, and we suppose he is a 
 Democrat. He showed me a North Carolina paper containing a protest against so 
 many Democrats from that State having been appointed through our examinations. 
 It gave the names of these. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. Do you, therefore, come to the conclusion that the great bulk of 
 your recent appointments from the South have been Democrats ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. I will tell you what I know. I know that four out of five of your 
 appointments in the Railway Mail Service in Texas are Republican. There is no 
 question about that. 
 
 Mr, Roosevelt. I am speaking about the departmental clerks. I do not say a word 
 about the Railwav Mail Service. 
 
9 
 
 Mr. Clements. My observation is entirely in accord with what Mr. Roosevelt says. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It is true as to Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, and South Caro- 
 lina, and also as to Georgia (from what Mr. Crisp tells us about Georgia). 
 
 Mr. Cannon. In filling vacancies from Illinois, Montana, Washington, or New 
 York, in reference to those five hundred or six hundred appointments in the Pension 
 Bureau, have you pursued the same course that you pursued in reference to the 
 Southern States ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt (with emphasis). No; it was not necessary, because the quotas 
 of the Northern States were up and they had their full share of appointments. We 
 pursued the policy of advertising in the States which were behind in their quotas so 
 as to bring them up level. Instead of sitting still we tried actively to enforce the 
 law. We do not have to emphasize that fact that Republicans can come forward for 
 appointment under a Republican administration. We do have to emphasize the fact 
 that Democrats have the same rights ; that the system is nonpolitical. If the Ad- 
 ministration were Democratic I should lay stress on the fact that Republicans could 
 apply. 
 
 Under the present Administration we lay the emphasis on the other end of the tilt 
 and ask Democrats to come forward. We particularly state in these reports, and in 
 interviews, that we ask people to come forward without regard to politics, whether 
 Republicans, Democrats, Greenbackers, Prohibitionists, Farmers Alliance men, or 
 Mugwumps. We had the correspondents of these various Southern papers notified — 
 most of them Democratic papers, not all, as there was a New Orleans Republican 
 correspondent there and an East Tennessee correspondent. The Congressmen were 
 simply asked for the purpose of getting the fact known in their districts, where the 
 local newspapers had no representatives here in Washington. In quite a number of 
 the districts the local papers had no representatives here. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Were there not a portion of these clerks appointed in the pension 
 -office from the Northern States ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. About three hundred of them were from the Northern States. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. There are some Democrats in the Northern States, I believe. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. There are. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Was this extraordinary attempt to advertise in the Southern States 
 resorted to in the Northern States to reach Northern Democrats, Greenbackers, and 
 Mugwumps ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We held no special examinations in the Northern States. There was 
 no such necessity as there was in the South to make these special advertisements ; 
 but I have again and again in interviews, and in speeches and addresses like that 
 before the Chicago Civil Service Association, before the Indianapolis Civil Service 
 Association, and before the Civil Service Association of Boston, dwelt upon the fact 
 that we wanted Democrats and Republicans alike toctxne forward. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Do I understand that in filling those places no examinations were 
 held in any of the Northern States ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. No extra examinations were held, because we had ample registers 
 from all the Northern States. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. I am asking whether any examinations were held ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Certainlv. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Were examinations held in the Northern States and the northern tier 
 of the Southern States after this act was passed increasing this force ; and were some 
 of those certified and appointed ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes. Regular examinations were held in the Northern States. 
 We had ample registers from the Northern States, but not from the South. And yet 
 the Southern States were entitled to their fair quotas, and that was our reason for 
 holding special examinations in the South. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. Of course yon speak from information, and not from knowledge ? 
 Referring to the State of Texas, is it your information that previous to your coming 
 into office, and the organization of the present Commission, four-fifths at least of 
 those who were appointed nominally from Texas were not citizens of Texas, but that 
 people would claim to be from there, and get appointments from that State, and to 
 that extent fill up the quota of Texas ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I would have no information about that. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. When Governor Thompson was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury I 
 went up there to see about the appointments from Texas in the classified service, and 
 I found that of the number of twenty or twenty-five not more than three or four 
 were actually residents of Texas. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The appointments made since I have been in oifice have been of 
 bona fide residents of the States from whence appointed. Of course, we are deceived 
 occasionally. If you come dowu to the office of the Commission we will show you 
 the registers of eligibles, aud show you the papers of the men appointed, together 
 with the certificates from the county clerks, showing that the appointees are resi- 
 dents of the districts from whence appointed. 
 
10 
 
 Mr. McCoMAS. Let us now get down to the substance of the bill. You ask for ten 
 clerks, three of class 1, three of class 2, aftd four of clas% 3, to be appointed to perma- 
 nent duty in your Commision. Have you already explained how that can be done 
 under the law without being in violation of the rules of the House f 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir ; I explained that before you came in. The law says that 
 we shall designate and select a suitable number of persons in the official service of 
 the Government to be boards of examiners. We can designate men in our own serv- 
 ice as well as others. As a matter of fact we do that now. 
 
 Mr. McCOMAS. Then they could be detailed for this service ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We can detail them now. These same men are detailed to u» 
 now, but we wish to have absolute control over them, so that the men will not have 
 a divided allegiance, partly due to the office from which they are detailed and partly 
 to our office. We do not want to expose the other offices to the temptation of detail- 
 ing to us their dead wood. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. In other words, you want to control them yourselves ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. BuTTERWORTH. What is the least number you can get on with ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Ten clerks ; the number we have now. 
 
 Mr. BuTTERWORTH. I Understand from you that of these really only six or seven 
 have been available? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We have a better force now than we have had for a long time^ 
 We have gotten two men from the Post-Office Department by declining to do their 
 work until they furnished us sufficient force. Our business is all the time increasing, 
 and even now, after you have increased onr force, we are falling behinii. When w© 
 got the increase we cleaned up the arrears of work entirely. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. What Mr. Butterworth wants to know is if these ten men are effi- 
 cient, would yon need so many? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. These men have been detailed to us on an average but thre& 
 months, and we are still shifting them and trying them. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. You can not say whether they are inefficient ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I think on the whole they are good clerks. There have been 
 complaints made to me by the chief examiner about one or two of them, but he say» 
 he is unwilling to say definitely yet whether they are inefficient. We want to give 
 the men a fair trial. 
 
 Mr. Clements. Will it interfere with the Department from whence they come ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. They do not now do any work for the Department from which 
 they come. 
 
 Mr. Forney. Have you a list of the Departments from which they come ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I have here a copy of a letter addressed by the president of our 
 Commission to the chairman of your subcommittee, showing the number of clerks 
 detailed, the Departments from whence they come, the salary, and the positions they 
 hold, which I will insert. 
 
 The following is the letter : 
 
 United States Civil Service Commission, 
 
 Washingtoti, D. C, December 11, 1890. 
 Hon. Benjamin Butterworth, 
 
 Chairman of the suioommittee of the Appropriations Committee, 
 
 House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. : 
 Dear Sir : Referring to the personal interview which I had with the subcommittee- 
 of the Appropriations Committee, of which you are chairman, I have the honor to 
 say that the following statement shows the number of clerks now on detail with this 
 Commission as examiners, the Department from which detailed, and the grade of 
 each, viz : 
 
 Salary. 
 
 Treasury Department, Secretary's office, one actuary $2, 250' 
 
 Treasury Department, Second Auditor's office, one clerk of class 3 1, 6C0 
 
 Treasury Department, Third Auditor's office, one clerk of class 2 1, 400 
 
 War Department, Kecord and Pension Division, one clerk of class 1 1, 200 
 
 War Department, Adjutant-General's office, one clerk of class 1 1, 200 
 
 Post-Office Department, Second Assistant Postmaster-General's office, one clerk of class 3 1, 600 
 
 Post-Offlce Department, Railway Mail Service, one clerk 1, 150 
 
 Interior Department, Bureau of Pensions, two clerks of class 2 2, 800 
 
 J^avy Department, Bureau of Provisions and Clothing, one clerk of class 2 1, 400 
 
 Total number detailed, ten 14,600' 
 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 Chas. Lyman, 
 
 President. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. Then you propose to take the men that are now detailed to you ? 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We will undoubtedly take those men who are detailed to us now 
 
11 
 
 There may have to he some changes. For instance, one man detailed to us is gettiug 
 a salary, I think, of $2,250. 
 
 Mr. Cogswell. They are now absolutely iinder your control f 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. They are subject to our orders, but we have no power of dismissal 
 over them, and no power to xjromote them. We can not reduce them, if they do not 
 give satisfaction. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. You can state that these clerks detailed from the Departments 
 are provided for by law ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. « 
 
 Mr. Henderson. You propose that these clerks so detailed shall become subject 
 to your Commission ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We propose that instead of making an appropriation for these 
 ten clerks in the Department, yoii make an appropriation for them under the head 
 of the Civil Seivice Commission, striking them out from the Departments. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. You think that would be in compliance with the law ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. The law says we shall designate not less than three 
 persons m the Government service to be members of boards of examiners. We can 
 and do designate men in our own service to act as examiners. 
 
 Mr. McCOMAS. The provision reads, "Three clerks of class 4 and four clerks of 
 class 2 for service as examiners." 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yon need not put that in. 
 
 Mr. McCoMAS. " For permanent duty at the office of the Commission." 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We simply want to add those to the clerks we now have. 
 
 Mr. McCoMAS. " To enable the Commission to pay salaries of postal and custom- 
 house boards of examiuerH, $6,000." 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. The local boards are composed of men in the Government serv- 
 ice who are called upon to' do our work in addition to their own, and it is a great 
 hardship upon them, without compensating them for that work. 
 
 Mr. Forney. What do you mean by " local boards ?" 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Boards of examiners at post offices and customhouses. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. You propose the appropriation of another salary to these employes f 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. It is a very insignificant increase. 
 
 Mr. McCoMAS. Can you make an appointment from the outside? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. No, unfortunately; that is forbidden. At present we have to ask 
 That all this work in the local post offices be done by men who are doing other \\ ork. 
 The effect of that is that we have no control over them. If a man does not do our 
 work, and we dismiss him from our board, he says "That is just what I want. I am 
 dismissed from a position where I have additional work and no additional pay. Now 
 I am relieved from that, and I am much obliged." They like the punishment. It is- 
 impossible to maintain discipline in that way. There are many boards which do- 
 their work admirably. There are other boards where we can hardly get proper work 
 done, and when we try to correct them they instantly send in their resignations. 
 
 Mr. Forney. How do yon propose to get them ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. We propose to give them a small salary for doing the work as 
 members of boards of examiners. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. In addition to the regular salary ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, sir. 
 
 Last year we attempted a rigid examination for the first time into the manner in 
 which the law is being enforced iu the local offices. We found that in the average 
 local office the law is not enforced nearly as well as it is iu Washington. We found 
 also that whereas ri per cent of the old employes are dismissed or resign from the- 
 service here, iu the local offices it would run from 8 in some offices up to as high as' 
 33 or 34 per cent in others. In Collector Cooper's office, in Philadelphia, about 31 per 
 cent of the old force had been removed during his first y>'ar of service. About 51 
 per cent had been removed during the corresponding' term oH his predecessor. We 
 are compelled to exercise supervision, and we can not do so unless we have control of 
 our local boards and have means to investigate their work. During the last year I 
 think we have secured a better observance of the law iu the local offices than ever 
 before. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. Who are these local boards composed of? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Of the employes in the post office or customhouse. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. For instance, take my Stale; have you ever noticed that possibly in 
 making these examinations the party in power will be disposed to favor those of 
 their own faith ? 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. Not where we can supervise it. 
 
 Mr. Sayers. I am not holding your Commission responsible, understand. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I will send you our annual report, which touches upon those 
 points. My proposition was that we should not ask any increase in the salaries of 
 the members of the Commission, but that we should ask outright for ten additional 
 men. These we want for the purpose of doing the marking for all of the offices all 
 
i^' 
 
 12 
 
 ■over the country. We have asked in our aunual report that we be allowed to choose 
 examiners from outside of the service. If we could get these ten men, aud were also 
 allowed to choose men from the outside who would be willing to oversee and con- 
 duct examinations, I think we could guaranty honest and fair examinations. 
 
 The Chairman. This bill had been reported to the full committee ; but there was 
 a general desire that you should come before the committee and submit to a cross- 
 examination, as you have done; and for myself T can say that it is entirely satisfac- 
 tory to me. So far as this item was concerned it was thought desirable to hear you, 
 in order to get this matter properly before the House and the country. 
 
 Mr. Roosevelt. I am much obliged to the committee for hearing me. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 January 6, 1891. 
 
 STATEMENT OP MR. FRED. BRACKETT, CHIEF CLERK OF THE 
 TREASURY DEPARTMENT. 
 
 Present: The Chairman (Mr. Butterworth) aud Messrs. Cannon, Cogswell, 
 Henderson, McComas, Forney, Dockery, and Sayers. 
 
 The Chairman. You ask for three additional assistant messeugers? 
 
 Mr. Brackett . Yes sir. That would give us eight in all, with the assistant mes- 
 sengers. We divide them, putting two at each door. If we do not have them, we 
 have to detail laborers, I have not asked for any aditional laborers. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the next item I 
 
 Mr. Brackett. Draftsmen. We are absolutely in need of another man. We 
 have a man now to whom we are paying $1,600 a year. That is not sufficient force 
 to do the work. We are adding twenty-five or thirty public buildings every year. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they have a peculiar character of furniture for the difterent 
 buildings ? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. The judges do, as they have different kinds of retiring rooms. 
 They want different kinds of cases, and they have to be made for particular corners. 
 These draftsmen are the only ones that we have for that work, and we have but one 
 now. I may say that I dropped two cabinetmakers which were getting |1 ,000 apiece. 
 They are detailed now, but they can not do the work. They are not the men we 
 want. If we do not get a new man you must put this back to |il,200 or we will be 
 •crippled. I have asked for two clerks, one of class 3 aud one of class 2. The work is 
 increasing rapidly, and we have to furnish light, fuel, and water to all the buildings 
 in the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. You have to keep the accounts, etc.? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. Yes, sir; we have this World's Fair now, and our bookkeepers are 
 obliged to work at night. 
 
 The Chairman. That involves opening up new accounts? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. It does. I have been aiding them myself in that matter. I would 
 like to have those new clerks, for they are needed. The work has been multiplying, 
 and I think we do more work in that office than in any other Bureau. We received 
 26,884 letters and sent 24,149. That is big work for those clerks. They also handled 
 22,700 vouchers. We handle the vouchers for every ceut of expenditure connected 
 with public buildings, in amounts from 1 cent up to $200,000. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. How does that compare with the work of previous years ? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. It is very much greater this year. Every time a public building is 
 added we have to take it up. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there anything else? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. I have asked to have two assistant engineers increased to $1,000 
 each. They are now getting $720. It is difficult to keep good men at this salary. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. How does that compare with the rates paid by other Depart- 
 ments ? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. I do not know, but I think it is less. 
 
 Mr. Henderson. We have a number of engineers in the District bill. 
 
 Mr. Brackett. I know that one of our engineers went over to Baltimore, and got 
 $1,190 a year against a thousand which we gave him. 
 
 Mr. Cannon. Do not men prefer Government places, because of their stability ? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. Yes, sir ; generally. We have a lady clerk detailed from thi- mis- 
 cellaneous division. She should be dropped from the miscellaneous division and put 
 ■on my force. She has been detailed for five or six years. 
 
 I ask for plumbers and plumber's helper. I think every other Department in Wash- 
 ington has one, and we are obliged to hire them from time to time. When we change 
 men so often they do not become familiar with our work. I ask for one plumber and 
 •one plumber's helper. It costs more to take strange men and keep them a month 
 !than it would to pay the salaries. 
 
13 
 
 The captain of the watch asks for more money for lieutenants. We onght to have- 
 a good character of men, as we have $651,000,000 in that building. Our watch\nen 
 get $7vJ0, while the policeman who walks the streets gets $900 a year. I have an in- 
 crease there of $500. We have ten laborers, and we ask f 100 of an increase in each 
 case. I would like to have the men asked for by the captain of the watch, and have 
 it changed so that they would receive an annual compensation. It does not cost any 
 more money. 
 
 Mr. FoKNEY. That is to give them thirty days' leave? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. It is not for that, and the men have never made that point. Of 
 course they would take advantage of it, as every other Government clerk does. When 
 they are sick now, they lose their time absolutel5'. 
 
 Mr. FoKNEY. We would pay them a little more by authorizing this? 
 
 Mr. BRACKiiTT. Yes, sir; it is the only case that I know of in the Government 
 Departments where men are paid per diems. 
 
 The Chairman. I believe in the other Departments they are annual ? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. Yes sir ; it is a matter of justice to the employes. This tiuishes- 
 the clerks part of it, and now for the conting" nt expenses. 
 
 The Chairman. What change do 3 on suggest in that? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. We ask for a little more money in some cases, more for freight and 
 ' expressage, and |500 more for ice. We have 70 more clerks, and they are getting to- 
 be fond of water. 
 
 For file holders and file cases, we have asked for $2,000 more. We have the Sixth 
 Auditor's building to fit up. When he moves from Marini's Hall, the material he has- 
 will not answer. For carpets we have asked for $1,500. There is only $1,700 left 
 now for the next six months, and we shall have a deficiency of $1,500. Therefore, 
 we ask that much more, as we will need it. For furniture we have not a dollar. We 
 had to fit up for 70 clerks, and we had to make pine tables, and do all sorts of things 
 to fix them up. When they go into the new building, we must have furniture, or 
 they will work to a disadvantage. Our contingent expenses are increased, because^ 
 of the increase in force, and the insufficiency of the appropriation of the year before. 
 I can give you the average appropriations from 1871 to 1889. 
 
 The Chaikman. What is it? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. It varies. For the purchase of files and file cases, where we had 
 $3,000 last year the average was $6,979. For carpets we had $7,364 as against $6,500' 
 last year. When you come to furniture, the average has been $18,200, and you gave 
 ns $10,000 last year. For miscellaneous you gave us $10,000, and the average has been 
 $14,760, This new building is occupied wholly by our clerks. They have control of 
 it and want watchmen and firemen. There is no one to keep a record of our people. 
 They are under the charge of the Post-Office Department, when they should be under 
 the control of our Department. Fuel, gas, and water are supplied, but not furniture 
 and carpets. 
 
 The Chairman. You think this should be put along with the other buildings under 
 the Treasury Department? 
 
 Mr, Brackett. Yes, sir. The building is occupied absolutely by our people, and 
 cared for by the Post-Office Department. 
 
 Mr. DOCKERY. You are aware that last year we placed a provision on the legisla- 
 tive bill which required every Department of the Government to report the number 
 of inefficient employes. Have you complied with that law ? 
 
 Mr. Brackett. Yes, sir. 
 
 TFork done iti office of chief clerk and Superintendent Treasury Department, during the 
 fiscal year ending June 30, 1890. 
 
 Number of letters received during the year 1890 - - 26, 884 
 
 Number of letters sent 24, 149 
 
 Number of vouchers •■ 22,788' 
 
 Requisitions - 3, 723 
 
 Time reports rendered 84 
 
 Applications for leaves 320 
 
 Leaves granted -• 320 
 
 640 
 
 Applications for sick leave 125 
 
 Payrolls 90 
 
 Pay receipts 240 
 
 ■' ^ 330 
 
 Eeturns of public property up to June 30, 1890, received and acted upon 192 
 
 Total .- 78,915 
 
14 
 
 December 22, 1890. 
 
 ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MR. B. M. DAWSON, CHIEF CLERK 
 INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 
 
 The Chairman. If there is a crying necessity for following out the estimates we 
 will see what it is. ' 
 
 Mr. Dawson. We have made the estimates out at the lowest possible notch. We 
 have only asked for those clerks which have been there for years on detail. This is 
 for the Secretary's office, his personal staff, and not the Bureaus. 
 
 The Chairman. How many of those has he ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. Six. 
 
 The Chairman. What are they ? 
 
 Mr. Daavson. The Indian and miscellaneoiis, stationery and accounts, lauds and 
 superintendence of documents. 
 
 Mr. Forney. And the Geological Survey ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. That is a Bureau. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, all matters coming from these several Bureaus ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that an appeal from the Commissioner of Public Patents or the 
 Commissiouer of the General Land Office is handed over to you ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. Yes, sir. The correspondence would be carried on in the division. 
 All Indian matters go to the Indian division. It requires a considerable force to take 
 care of the correspondence and keep the records, and the chiefs of divisions have 
 important matters coming before them for decision. 
 
 The Chairman. When the Commissioner of Lands has a record made up, is his 
 opinion overhauled by a clerk ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. That work is done by the assistant attorneys. The records are 
 kept in the Land Office. 
 
 The Chairman. How many clerks are there in these divisions ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. The larger divisions have seven or eight, and the smaller ones have 
 ^ve or six. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the work grown two or three hundred per cent in the last 
 five years ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. The work is increasing and new subjects have been added to the 
 Department. 
 
 The Chairman. What new subjects ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. The Census, for one, and recently you have added two additional 
 parks in the West. Then we have in charge the appropriations for the agricultural 
 colleges. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do not they go to the Agricultural Department ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. Because they have been assigned to us. The Secretary has control of 
 that expenditure. 
 
 Mr. Forney. What about the Commissioner of Education ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. He has matters referred to him to work up the details and then it 
 goes to the Secretary for decisions upon the right of the college to have the money. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a question whether in point of fact there are not a vast num- 
 ber of appeals taken and work performed that might be eliminated. 
 
 Mr. Dawson. I think not. 
 
 Mr. Forney. What is it that you want ? 
 
 The Chairman. He wants the amount of his estimates. 
 
 Mr. Dawson. We can not get along with less. 
 
 The Chairman. How far behind are you ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. We are not behind. We are compelled to keep the work up. We 
 have some details. 
 
 The Chairman. From what Bureau, have you details ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. Some are detailed from the Land Office and some from the Patent 
 Office, as well as some from the Pension Office and some from the Census. That office 
 has contributed because of the increase of business from that office. 
 
 The Chairman. These clerks are engaged in the work coming up from these sev- 
 eral Bureaus, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Dawson. To a considerable extent. What I ask for is not these temporary 
 details for a mouth or two, but for clerks that have been there ever since the last 
 census. Mr. Allen was appointed there during the census of 1880 on the Pension- 
 Office roll, and although he has been there for ten years he has never done a day's 
 work in the Pension Office. They should be provided for on our roll, because we 
 have their services. I want to say it is very desirable that we should have the 
 clerks we have asked for. 
 
1l 
 
4f:\i